All black Americans are racist. Well, at least 99%.
When your life is shaped by the colour of your skin it is very hard not to see the world in terms of race. In fact, to be race-blind under such circumstances would be unwise.
Some say blacks cannot possibly be racist because they lack power like whites to use their prejudice, their feelings about race, to hurt others. They do not control the police, banks, courts or newspapers. Racism is prejudice backed by power.
But blacks do have power. Not the power to affect complete strangers in large numbers like whites do, but they still have the power to hurt others.
You see that in hate crimes against whites and Asians, for example.
But most of their prejudice and hatred is turned inward. Whatever hatred blacks direct against whites and Asians it is nothing compared to the hatred they direct against themselves.
They live in a white world which tells them over and over and over again that they are no good. In a thousand little ways. As advertisers know, if you hear something enough times you begin to believe it. It is how the mind works.
So at one level most blacks are proud of being black and know they are just as good as whites. And yet at another level, deep down, there is that shame and hatred and doubt about anything black, laid there since childhood by American society.
This comes out in a hundred ways, directly and indirectly. In the self-destruction of drugs and drink. In broken marriages and broken homes. In young men full of promise who suddenly throw it all away. In feelings about light skin and dark skin – colourism. In the way many black women feel about their hair and their beauty. And, yes, in the use of the n-word: I do not care who says it, that word is still poison.
Because this sort of racism works from the inside it can be worse than the racism that comes from the outside directly from whites.
If you ever saw Kenneth Clark’s Doll Test it is heartbreaking: little black girls picking the white doll over the black doll as the nice one. Not all the black girls picked the white doll, but most did.
They did that experiment back in the 1940s and it was one of the things that persuaded the Supreme Court to tear down the Jim Crow laws. Not the lynchings, not the dead black men hanging from trees, but the little black girls picking up white dolls.
But it gets worse: they repeated that experiment in 1985 and again in 2006, long after the fall of Jim Crow, and it was still the same!
Things are way better for blacks than they were 60 years ago – the growth of the black middle-class is proof of that. But there is still quite a ways to go. Even if white racism ended tomorrow, it would take at least another 30 years for racism to die out among blacks.
See also:
- The asymmetry of racism
- internalized racism
- The doll experiment
- Is That Really Beyonce: Black Women and Beauty
- colourism – light-skinned and dark-skinned
- Audre Lorde: Eye to Eye – an excellent example of the above
- Reading the Bluest Eye
- Posts I wrote because of the above:
- All whites are racist – in case you were wondering
- Jim Crow
- Race in America
- “Black is beautiful”
- bell hooks: Loving Blackness as Political Resistance
Abagond,
(after reading this)
You took my breath away! I could not breathe, I could not speak! I cried and cried. I am all too familiar with that self-hatred and self-loathing. This is a shame but I am going to say it anyway. I used to pray to God night after night to make me white so that then I would be worth something. I literally thought that I was worthless because I was black (and a girl). This made me so sad but it also made me realize how far I have come in loving and accepting myself.
You are right in what you said about black racism. This “thing” hurts black people terribly but it also hurts the whole world. Everybody pays because of this black shame and self-hatred. I for one am comitted to healing. Your blog has help. Your appreciation of our beauty has helped me to appreciate it more. Thank you.
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Let me first say…
It is undeniably a psychological and social construct to give power and prestige to whites(see “white” in the dictionary) and hold blacks (see “black” in the dictionary) at a lower level, sometimes even sub human level—we see it in the beauty industry, the media, IQ test, and the likes.
Any black person who claims that colorism is not real in this day and age has either just by some mere stroke of luck never experienced it (isolation, etc), are the beneficiaries of it, and/or are simply prevaricating. This is not just an African American issue—this is a black issue.
In many parts of Africa and the Americas black women are using skin bleaching creams to lighten their skin—which is very dangerous to one’s health. Lighter skin women in Jamaica are called “brownin’” and in North America “red bone”. Some women you will find their faces, necks, and limbs light, but the other parts of their body are their original hue.
Darker skin children, I have seen this too many times to count, are usually teased and called all sorts of names by other blacks who might be 1-8 shades lighter than the one they are teasing. This does go both ways but more much often lighter skin is praised and darker skin is looked down on–perhaps because lighter skin is closer to “white”.
This reminds me of Eric Dyson’s recent comments about his brothers incarceration, which was looked down by most.
Obviously being dark skin does not turn you into a criminal and I don’t think that is what Dyson was trying to say by any means. Instead, I think he meant that there are often negative connotations linked with having dark skin and those negative connotations often result in the nightly news report that blares: “Cops are looking for a black, male suspect, about 5’9, possibly driving…etc). The image in most minds is that of dark skin black male, not a light skin black male. Dark skin people seem to be more “incriminating” and threatening than lighter skin black people—especially to most white people.
Those same negative connotations are linked to one child feeling neglected or left out because he/she is looked down on for having dark skin, not paid as much attention to for having dark skin, or looked at as the less “pretty”/”handsome” one for having dark skin.
Therefore, I think it starts in the home,and we have the power to continue the cycle or change the image of ourselves through ourselves and through positive means.
Beyond skin color, colorism is also related to eye color. Black people with hazel, green, etc eyes—eyes other than the common brown—are often praised for having “pretty” eyes. Most of these people tend to be lighter skin and/or mixed.
The good hair/bad hair issue, perms, natural hair and such are products of this. One thing is for sure, European colonization, all in all, did a number on the black psyche–(including Ethiopia, where the country was only occupied for 5 years by Italy)
Ironbutterfly:
I commend you for your candid honesty, and I wish you well on that journey to self love. It is a often a long one but one well worth taking. You’ll find the true beauty of your inner and outer self at the end and everything that embodies.
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Ironbutterfly: you are welcomed. It is my pleasure, even though I get some heat for it.
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There is absolutely no earthly reason to think that brown eyes, natural hair and dark brown skin is ugly – except, of course, for the white racism that we have to live in the middle of. They are all beautiful (!!), as people deep in the country of Cameroon, beyond the reach of television, will tell you. It is almost certainly how Eve looked.
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Ironbutterfly: good point. When whites think of black racism they think of getting beat up or heckled by blacks. But what hurts them most is not that kind of stuff but the damage that black-on-black racism does to the country.
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Thank you Indigoblu. I hold my head up around all people and I am proud to be Black. I wouldn’t want to be anything else. And for the FIRST time in my life I can say that. I didn’t think I would ever get to this place but it is such a beautiful place to be. Thank you for your kind words.
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Indigoblu,
I respect your comments but they way too narrow-viewed and extremely hackneyed. The colorism in African American culture is EXTREMELY complex. It truly negatively affects ALL blacks who practice it, no one truly benefits from it at all at the end. No matter how anyone slices it. As Abagond eloquently stated in this point, all of this is (one of the many) nasty after effects of the anti-black sentiment felt around this country, and even around the world, really.
I think you and many other internet commenters missed the point of the Dyson’s brothers tale on CNN’s way overly-simplified “Black In America” mini series. When Michael Eric brought up the suspected color aspect to explain some of the reason behind the disparity of the two brothers’ progress through life as adults, he basically was saying that within their specific environment that he believes they were perceived differently (not better, not worse, just differently) by the differing shades of skin. This in turn, affected how both brothers thought about themselves in terms of potential and this ultimately affected the intensity of how deeply and how far each brothers chased after oppurtunity. Yet, as noted, Michael Eric already was a prodigy at an extremely young age while Everett, his younger brother, was always, as he noted “a regular, average kid”. So, the cards were already in M.E.’s favor, anyway. All M.E.D. was saying was that he believes their differing physical appearances as well as their natural abilities may have a part in their development while growing up in the lower-class 1960’s Detroit.
He is not fatous enough to say that his success and Everett’s failure was based solely, or even largely, on looks. That was stated very clearly during the program. So, let’s be clear with that.
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Also …
One GLARING thing that people often skip over when the specific topic of “colorism” comes up is this: the terms “light skinned” and “dark skinned” are TOO subjective. And very relative. It’s all a thing of perception. How do you figure out whose “truly light” or “truly light”? What may be light to you may not be light to me. And vice versa. It’s way too subjective.
I’ll give you a celeb example (as people on the internet are prone to do): I remember reading a cover story in Latina Magazine on the Afro-Cuban singer/actress Christina Milian. In the story, she basically said that she wants to lead the way for “darker skinned” Latinas in the Latino media. Yet, I remember a few African American media folks referring to her as “light skinned”.
Christina didn’t change. The definition of what’s “light” and “dark” changed. Who’s wrong? And who’s right?
Another very glaring omission that never comes up with the topic of black self-hatred veers in color territory:
MOST BLACK PEOPLE, AROUND THE WORLD, ARE NOT LIGHTLY COMPLEXIONED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let’s be real. “Lighter skinned” blacks (remember it’s too hard to determine who truly fits this description since it’s too fluid and perceptive) are a MINORITY. A significant minority. An important minority. A relevant minority but a definite MINORITY.
The overwhelming majority of black people are a medium-brown or dark-brown complexion. And then there’s people who are even darker.
Hence, why if asked to describe a black person, most folks (of any race) would describe them as dark skinned. Duh.
I’m so surprised that most people seem to totally ignore this very STRIKING fact.
So, there’s limits to that.
And most “light skinned” blacks don’t look like Lena Horne. Let’s not kid ourselves. Most of the “lighter” brothers and sisters look like a slightly lighter version of most other Black Americans with the diluted West African-derived features, kinky hair, brown eyes, etc.
Most of the black folks who I’ve known, observed or just seen who had light eyes were perfectly brown. Light skin, my ass.
And “mixed”? Who are you referring to? That’s most black people, from an interracial union or (usually) not. You, me, everybody. The “Black” gene pool has been hacked thousands of years ago. Ain’t no full-blooded Africans here! No matter what your eyes may show you! LOL
When it comes to “colorism” or general self-hatred among blacks, there is no ultimate conclusion that you can quickly come to. Considering the fact that EVERYONE’S EXPERIENCES ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT. Everyone’s too different. Environment plays a huge part. Most of a black person’s individual attitude towards their blackness and their ethnic appearance has to do with upbringing. Growing up, for example, I had no concept of “light/dark” or hair texture when it came to black folks, or anyone else. It was just irrelevant growing up. And it still is. I never had any hang-ups or feelings of inferiority when it came to being black at all. And I know MANY black folks who are the same way. And of course, it’s the opposite for many. It’s too diverse to form a single-minded conclusion. It’s all up to the individual and how and where they grew up.
Not all black folks hate themselves, trust. That’s almost insulting to say that.
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mynameismyname:
None of the words in my comment indicated this was the only aspect of this issue… I simply expounded on the black-on-black racism aspect of it—pretty obvious. Whether you think that was through a subjective lens or not is subjective itself.
“Differently” not “better or worse”? That is vague, so let me ask….
Questions: What was so “different”, in reference to skin color, about their treatment?
Why would either one be perceived “differently”, merely based on the color of his skin?
What would this indicate?
If “different” wasn’t better or worse, why would they have “better” or “worse” perceptions of themselves based on their treatment via skin color?
You are filibustering while I’m simply calling a spade a spade.
I never said I believed his brother to be in jail because of his dark skin, you missed that point entirely.
I’m not blaming Dyson for being gifted, nor am I blaming his brother for being a “regular, average kid” (besides, I’m sure his brother had his own gifts to give).
Neither am I denying that the cards were in Dyson’s favor because he was gifted, but that’s not what this is about; it is about colorism (which is where my comment resonates)– which Dyson and his brother both believe took a psychological toll on both of them. His brother’s perception was shaped by his “different” treatment.
If Dysons’ brother had not been treated “differently” based on his color perhaps his perception of self would have been “different” as well and that is something the concept of colorism completely undermines.
You would think I took a measuring stick that supposedly measures “light” and “dark” skin color and then deemed it the “Divine Measurement of Light and Dark skin” from how you are ranting. It should be GLARING to you, as it is to me and anyone who can read…that did not happen, neither was it insinuated.
I was simply talking about light or dark skin of blacks, with it subjectivity and all, to you or me. It doesn’t matter if I see this skin as light and you see that skin as dark—we both still see “light” and “dark” skin— and that is the point.
The same example you gave me just shows that lighter skin is deemed more attractive even in the Latino community.
Other people from other cultures suffer from some form of this too (Indian caste system and China for example) It’s not to say that they or blacks hate themselves (some do, others don’t) but that they are looked down on …in some form or another by others, who are lighter than they.
Seriously, are you OK? Again, no where did I say light skin people are the majority—-that doesn’t even matter when discussing this. It’s not about being the majority or minority. If that was the case, Chinese people would be at the top of the hierarchy.
It’s the affect of colorism and its roots in the black community and its presence still…in the black community. Colorism is colorism… majority or minority. It simply is what it is.
…let’s try this again I said: (in reference to light eye color) Most of these people tend to be lighter skin and/or mixed. This does not imply that all light skin people look like Lena Horne…even all mixed people do not look like Lena Horne.
Most of the light skin blacks you’ve seen with lighter color eyes were “perfectly brown”—is this not the same subjection you railed about earlier? As for me and my experiences, most of the light skin blacks, who had lighter color eyes, were mixed.
Let me explain what I mean by “mixed”. Of course we are all of mixed ancestry and no one is “pure” but some “mixtures” are simply more noticeable than others via hair texture, facial features, and sometimes even skin and eye color. So when I say “mixed”, I mean those that are more noticeably mixed or bi-racial.
I’ve already said:
Overall, I feel you were way too emotional about this and that is telling within itself—not to mention how much time you spent filibustering and bringing up random things that had little to do with my comment yet were directed towards me.
In as much as you may have thought my comment was narrow and “hackneyed”—you came off much more subjective than objective in comparison to myself—and did little to nothing disprove anything….as you were merely on an emotional rant.
As “tired” as you claim this to be, it is obviously still very much a part of the black community. I can respect honesty but I have a low tolerance for hypocritical people and/or those who filibuster.
I think colorism is a form of self hate and it promotes self hate without a doubt. Not once did I say or tacit everyone who experiences it or knows about it are people who hate themselves…as you assumed in your rant.
However, those who use it have a form of self hate which sometimes leaves people who are targets of it in self hate as well, while others may be mere spectators.
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abagond:
I agree with you it is absolutely beautiful. Nothing is wrong with brown eyes, skin, natural hair etc.
…but these things do exist and in multiple forms, rather one wants to admit it or not.
FYI:
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/08/skin_tone.html
http://www.black-collegian.com/news/bcwire/bcwire_colorism_0607.htm
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Ironbutterfly:
I am happy to see those words so thank you. Life is beautifully divine, even in all it’s fallacies. 🙂
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Indigoblu,
I was not on an emotional rant at all. LOL. That’s funny.
It’s just that I’m SOOOO tired of the same ol’, hackneyed, trite, biased discussions that often occur on this topic (colorism/black self hatred) when it’s SOOO much more complex.
Colorism (and overall black self-hatred), among black Americans, is rooted in contradiction.
Yet, I get the feeling that no matter how much I go indepth (like I did above) you still won’t get it. I’ve come to grips with the facts that some people just will never “get it”.
Or they’ll “get it” when it’s time for them too.
I’ll close with by paraphrasing my man Podonous from De La Soul, “I may run a phrase in June, you didn’t wouldn’t catch it until Decemeber”.
Peace.
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Mynameismyname:
Having done little more than rant, the phrase is irrelevant and yours, truly. Well, at least one good thing came out of this…you were able to vent via rant hence letting out some hot air.
Abagond:
I think you are right that it would take a while, but why do you think 30 years?
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“Rant” …LOL. You should be a comedian. (I was actually giggling and drinking grape soda when I typed my first responses to your “comment”.)
Well, shoot, reading enough hackneyed, simplistic internet commentary (like yours) on such complex, fluid concepts of race will probably make someone want to rant, though! Enough is enough! Buy a clue, already. LOL.
As witnessed by your lengthy and very weak response to my “rant”, talking to you (and people like you) is like talking to a brick wall. So, why waste time?
Like I said above, you’ll “get it” when it’s time for you to get it”.
Hopefully in your case, it’s sooner than later. Or maybe, it’ll never happen. And that would be very unfortunate.
And when Abagond says “30 years”, I think that is a figure of speech, nothing specific. Duh? LOL. (I kid, I’m a kidder.)
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I said at least 30 years, it could take more like 60 or 90. I was thinking that at the very least one generation will have to grow up never having known much racism from whites.
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OK…that makes sense.
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..although it is very sad the psycological affect is that deep that it’d likely take generations to recover.
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Eh …slavery wasn’t all that long in the grand scheme of things.
Never was Jim Crow.
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What I meant to type:
Eh …slavery wasn’t all that long ago in the grand scheme of things.
Neither was Jim Crow.
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Aba:
Tyra did a show today about the issue of skin color in the black community. Very telling of just how alive an old subject is.
http://tyrashow.warnerbros.com/thisweek/
I don’t know if you can catch it again or on her website somewhere but if you can, watch it or read up on it. It may be helpful when you do your post on colorism concerning the black community–though it’s in other communities as well.
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Thanks. My wife usually records Tyra, so I might be in luck.
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Since when is the Tyra Banks Show the perimeter of social issues?!?!
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Also, colorism in Latin America and Asian diasporas is far more inherent and broader than among African Americans, where’s it more fluid and rooted in deep contridiction.
Didn’t we discuss this already or is this slow poster intentionally overlooking what’s being posted?
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I never posted on colorism, not yet. I plan to post on it next week. I will put the link here when it goes up.
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indigoblu:
My wife did not record Tyra. She said it was a rerun. Was it the one with the paper bag test? If so, then I already saw it.
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mynameismyname: Tyra’s show covers some of the same issues that we talk about here. I started writing about race and beauty, for example, after watching a Tyra show.
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Aba:
Yes, the paper bag test was part of it; it ran this past April, but this week was my first time seeing it as I don’t usually tune in to the Tyra show. But every now and again she has some interesting shows.
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…also you might or might not get some bashing with this topic, it’s almost considered taboo or better “airing dirty laundry” to some.
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Colorism among black folks is old news. Intrestingly, I can’t find too much info on the internet on the topic as it pertains in Latin American and Asian disaporas. And I know for a fact, that the issue there is far more inherent.
I actually have watched several episodes of Tyra’s gabfest. It’s very superficial in my opinion. I know for a fact that one show on colorism was staged as one of the girls who appeared on the show described her experience on the show on a YouTube video. She describes how elements of the show were staged to dramatize a point.
All of her shows on race, in my opinion, failed the test (She has a “Focus on Race” series).
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Well, yes, Tyra Banks is not Charlie Rose. But some of her shows are interesting, like indigoblu said.
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I guess white women who get tans and surgically-induced fuller lips are full of self-hate too. And all those young white “wiggers” who try to act like something they’re not. It works both ways.
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No, the self-hatred and shame I am talking about runs much deeper than that.
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Dang! Another great blog I found. They just keep coming. Abagond, I love it.
I don’t know why, but for some reason I wonna call you Agabond. lol!
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Some commenters do that. I think because it sounds like “vagabond”.
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I know this is an older blog, but I thought I would comment (I know your shocked).
I took that racism test to see what it said. http://www.racismtest.org/
And I sent it to several of my friends. Today – my friend flecia told me she and a bunch of her black friends took it and they were all racist. I told her that I understood that – because of what she has experienced in life. – basically what you said above, but not as eloquently.
Where as, I grew up white, without being judged in the same manner – I was able to become a women who treats people how I want to be treated and not judge based on skin color. I know I had a beaver cleaver up bringing and i am eternally thankful for it.
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Nothing wrong in commenting on old blog posts!
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So according to that test it says I am not racist. But I doubt the accuracy of that test. I would say in general I am not, and I answered the questions truthful, but how you think you would react to something, or hope you would react to something…and how you truelly do are two different things.
While the test is interesting – I dont think its something you can print and put on your wall as proof that your not racist.
I am positive I have reacted in racist manner (when younger I had huge issues with asian women) before. I strive to not be…but everyone fails from time to time – none of us are perfect.
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Davida:
Was it the IAT – where they see how quickly you react?
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no – its a series of question…like
There are two candidates for a job, both equally qualified, one is a different race from yours. Do you
A) hire the race that is the same as yours because you feel you will have more in common
B) hire the other person because you think they desearve a chance
C) investigate their backgrounds further to see which personality fits the group better
Questions like that…
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I also was moved by the artical. However what I feel in my heart is also racist. You know the white dolls could just have been worth more money. Or really whites and blacks are a whole lot more alike than they thought and learn to play with the white model toys which were made by whites and not blacks.Yes the orginal black barbie everybody hated it.It was a white barbie with brown plastic. There are many things left unaccounted for between now and then.
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I just want to comment on a few things I read on this blog.
Kenneth clark’s doll test ( black girls picking up white dolls)is no real expression of self hatred in my opinion. It could also be interpreted as a question of preference rather than self hatred. May be these little black girls picked the white dolls because the found them attractive than the black ones. It is possible to show preference for something without necessarily wanting to have or be that thing.
This is how I interprete Kenneth Clark’s doll test: “Children think that the best color for dolls is the white color.” This does not mean in any way that the black children who picked up the white dolls were expressing some kind of self hatred. I have seen some of these black dolls and I can tell you that they are very ugly.They do not even look like black children. Reason is that the industry is actually unable to imitate that black color and so they come up with something really black and with some funny eye color that would make any child to go for the white dolls. Kenneth clark’s doll test is not objective. It sure has a meaning but it is not well understood by so many people, myself included.
My second point is the light skinned/ dark skinned issue that is much alive in the Black American community. These are people who suffered slavery and who have continuously lived in a white dominated world. It is obvious that these people end up feeling strange about their color and want to create some sort of differentiation in order to feel better or greater. The white man thinks the black man is inferior and he is better. The light skinned black man is not comfortable with this judgment so he tries to create a difference between him and the dark skinned one. This could be understood as self hatred but I think this is because of the history and the environment of the Afro American people. This self hatred based on skin tone is not expressed by Africans who live in the United states. Despite living in this country and achieving considerable success they still cling to their own when it comes to marriage. There could be some exception to this but it is true for the majority. Africans do not really care about their skin tone, since they know their future does not entirely depend on the whim of the white man contrary to the afro american. They have their own country and culture and that is what matters to them. Skin tone differences is also apparent in Africa. They also think that light skinned (black) people are prettier but this judgment does not make the dark skinned ones feel unwanted or inferior as it is the case in America. Slavery and white domination have destroyed the perception and the spirit of the African American. It would be a great mistake to judge all Black people by referring exclusively to African Americans.
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When I was younger, I was teased by lighter skinned blacks for being dark skinned. Fast forward to the present: as I grow older (I’m 47) what was was once considered a negative attribute is now a positive. My dark skin has been and continues to be a blessing. You see, having a darker hue has protected my skin from the harmful effects of the sun’s ultraviolet rays. It has also slowed the aging process remarkably. I ***LOVE*** telling people my age because, when I do, they are totally blown away. I have never had ANY type of plastic surgery (couldn’t afford it anyway), or any form of anti-aging treatments. I thank God for blessing me with my beautiful dark chocolate skin!!!
My white female colleagues (who are roughly the same age and look a WHOLE lot older) sometimes have little tea parties after work. When the topic turns to a discussion of the types of plastic surgeries they would like to have in order to “freshen” themselves up, since I cannot relate, I excuse myself and go home.
As I teacher, I run into some darker skinned students who have complexes about their dark skin. I make it a point to praise them and tell them to be proud because when they get older (provided they take good care of themselves, don’t smoke, and eat healthy) they will most likely look a lot younger than many of their lighter skinned counterparts.
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Lynette,
may be I got lost in my explanations due to my poor mastery of English language ( I am french). I am in no way saying that there are a lot of self-hating Blacks in the world. I am saying that judgment on this post is based of the reaction of Afro-Americans, which – according to me are not the only Black people in the world. If they feel bad/ proud about their dark/light skin it is as a result of their difficult history of slavery and racism. Whereas in places like Africa people are not even interested about skin tone. Though men show preference for light skinned black women, they don’t do that because they think these women are better or superior than the others. In Africa it is just a question of taste and attraction not self – hatred.
I hope you understand me this time around.
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Lynette,
teach this children all they need to know about confidence and racial pride. You are one wonderful “sista”!!!
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This post applies only to blacks in America. That is why the first sentence says this:
“All black Americans are racist. Well, at least 99%”
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Regina: I noticed that too: the skin of white women does not hold up well past 40, shockingly so, unlike black women. But that is in New York. In Jamaica, where there is way more sun, black skin does not hold up all that well.
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tebiit henri: Good point about the dolls. Black dolls often come out looking unnatural.
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tebiit henri: Good point about the dolls. Black dolls sometimes come out looking unnatural.
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I agree with Lynette.
People of black African descent are a dark skinned people and that many reject the hue of their skin is disturbing. And it has a lot to do with the internalization of the anti-black sentiment that is prevalent in the Western world.
That’s so sad, Lynette, that in this day and age, you see black children tease other black children because they look black like them. That’s disheartening. But I hope you contine to correct that foolishness and let them know that being black is a blessing, not a curse. Tebitt Henri is right, you are a wonderful sister. I think if those of us who are enlightened can spread the message to those who are not, it can only quell the ignorance and self hate that so many of the people suffer.
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I understand you, but as a Black woman I feel it is self-hate when one is Black and his or her preference happens to be lighter skin. Why can’t we as Black people see the beauty in dark skin? I think the most beautiful people in the world have dark skin. I am very interested in this subject, because I work with Black kids everyday who seem to reject darker skin, in that the children with dark skin are teased daily. Furthermore, they often speak about finding mates with light skin. I feel as though they hate their Black skin. Having a preference for lighter skin is a form of self-hate, and yes it is a result of slavery and racism. Thanks for taking the time out to answer my question.
You are exactly right Lynette. it’s starts very young and the parents does not have to teach their children this self-hate. It’s all around you via media! I’m really tired of it because it’s affecting the next generation and we need to end the cycle.
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This entire topic is sad but is relevant because some blacks are racist toward other blacks due basically to skin pigmentation. I’m from the south and was raised in a very racist town, you know one of those stereotypical redneck towns. The white people in that town HATED minorities period especially blacks, so it wasn’t this nonsense about blacks being treated better if they were lighter, if you were a nigger, chic, wetback or anything other then a WASP, they hated you. So I guess the black people where I’m from had to stick together. The white people still hated us regardless of our different types of skin “hue”. And for the record only stupid, ignorant people worry about such bullshit as skin color. Why can’t blacks be like the Asians who come in all shades but still help and promote each other, I swear some blacks are just fucking retarded, until we let all this racist and self hating shit go we will always be at the bottom in America.
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hey brothers,
we are just like all other humans who would do anything – including silly things- to appear better than others. I have lived in china and the Chinese would always emphasize on their history or cultural heritage to prove that they are better than the Mongolian minority. I was always confused about all this since both Chinese and Mongolians looked alike to me. But this situation has helped me to understand and accept this paradox among black people in America as a human condition. Nevertheless we need to educate our black folks to learn to accept who they are and to give less importance to issues like these
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“All”, “99%”, Citation please.
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No citation: that is just my estimate. If you read the post it follows that it should be 100% or very close to it.
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The most racist blacks are afro latinos. I remember I heard this afro latina go on about how she isn’t black. The funny thing was that she was as dark as me. Priceless.
Abagond, nobody is in more denial about their race then afro latinos from DR, Puerto Rico and Cuba.
Thank god, I live in the U.K. otherwise I would have become a self hater just like them.
I am Afro latino/carribean and proud.
Jamaican, Haitian and Dominican.
You should write a blog about racism in latin america.
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That’s…
That’s a whole lot of nothing. Hear me out, for all of your preaching, you’re not really saying much. However heartfelt your post might be, you have little to no evidence backing up your claims. “How” are blacks destroying themselves? Why? What studies, what research, what experience do you back this with? Your reasoning is vague; open up!
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To see the world in terms of race is not necessarily racism. To see the world in terms of race is more like profiling which I’m sure you would agree does exist
Your 6th point was very interesting and I would challenge that 99% of blacks are racists. But I could be naive and give credit where it’s not deserved.
Are you yourself racist?
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Great post. This needs to be reprinted again and again in other blogsites.
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The way we use language and formulate it can often be a reflection of the world.
All things being equal, if Blacks lived in a ‘world’ where there was no racism. Then they would not have a perception of ‘hatred’ toward themselves.
In fact I would go as far to say that under this situation it would be ‘impossible’ to have a ‘hatred’ toward your race
So personally I think it is a misnomer ‘All Blacks are racist’ unless you are going to enquire do Blacks hate other races?
And while on this I think the notion of Black-on-Black violence’ is also a misnomer, since it seems to suggest that there is no such thing as ‘White-on-White violence’
Finally there is a difference being the victim of ‘hate’ and responding appropriately to that hate and being ‘racist’.
Personally with regard to ‘racism’ as I said before I do not think there is any individuals (ie whether White or Black), who have been able to totally disavow this phenomena so that it has no negative impact on their lives – and that they are able to think correctly as a result
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@ Vindicator –
I think many Afro Latinos suffer from Colourism. The UK and U.S. have traditionally adherred to the “one drop” rule while much of Latin America/Carribean has not. This is why culturally speaking there is a rift between many Latinos and the Black American community. (you get into that whole “You just don’t understand” argument – from both sides.)
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Just to say the UK has not strictly adhered to the one drop rule. Especially if you see how they ruled the Caribbean.
Now that I think about it Iam not quite sure how I would describe the process??
Hmmm!!
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Ironically, in my experience, white men find white women to be the least attractive. Ive heard many white men, including my boyfriend, say black women are the most beautiful, or asians, or latinas, so much that i now actually feel physically inferior bec
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ause i’m just plain old white. the only guys ive seen who preffered white women were black.
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Kristi,
“Ironically, in my experience, white men find white women to be the least attractive.”
Really? That hasn’t been my experience at all. Where do you live?
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southern Wisconsin
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Ah, well, for what it’s worth, most white men I know (in the Northeast and Southeast) are attracted to white women. If not primarily, at least equally.
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I guess it could just be like that here cuz the population is 2% black, and guys just tend to prefer whatever is different, along with a lack of old bad attitudes since wisconsin wasnt a slave state (though i hear things are much more redneck farther nor
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Th, for some reason). all i know is, whenever guys find out i’m 1/16th black (not enough to even mention, in my opinion, but my bf cant shut up abt it) they instantly treat me much more favorably.
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I also often hear the opinion that the ugliest black, asian or latina is still hotter than hottest white girl. ive seen it in action. a nonwhite woman, no matter what she looks like, can have her pick around here.
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Kristi, interesting. Although I agree that 1/16th is negligible (how do you even know if you are 1/16th of something?); even “pure” whites, blacks, etc in Europe and Africa have more [ancient] admixture than that. I’ll have to do some research on this, but I recall that the Midwest tends to have the lowest rates of interracial marriages in the country.
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“Kristi, interesting. Although I agree that 1/16th is negligible (how do you even know if you are 1/16th of something?); ”
Well families often pass down knowledge about ancestors.
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Yes, but that doesn’t mean this history is accurate. Or that having an ancestor that is considered to be of a certain group means that this ancestor is 100/99 percent of this group in genetic origins.
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This article is nothing but your average african american I blame whitey letter
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I know what you mean. by one sixteenth i just mean my great-great grandpa was black. my math is off?
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This article is nothing but your average african american I blame whitey letter
I can’t speak for others here but I blame Cthulhu! If it wasn’t for it, we wouldn’t be in this dire mess! This is what is referred to in Cthulian circles as: ”
http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Cthulhu
In the words of the great god Cthulhu:
Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wgah’nagl fhtagn.
Don’t ask me what that translates to, I don’t know, but it must be profound as Cthulhu said it!
An icon of Cthulhu:
If you pray to Ctulhu hard enough, maybe the blacks will be less racist!
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Anyway, all i was really saying is that its ironic that being black makes you feel ugly, and being white makes me feel ugly. i dont know, maybe itd be different if i were at least blond
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Natasha,
It’s not impossible to know that you’re 1/16 “something”. Maybe in America, but not in my part of the world. I know I am 1/16 Polish and 1/16 Austrian. (And 2/16 = 1/8 Bulgarian).
Of course, that’s just how these people chose to identify. I have no idea whether some of my ancestors were Turks, for example.
But it’s not that difficult to know about your 1/16 ancestor. These people are your grandparents’ grandparents. So if you, for example, ask your grandma to tell you something about her grandparents, chances are that she’ll know a lot of stuff, just like most of the people know a lot about their grandparents.
Kristi,
I never thought much about race, but yes, I did have my “white women- including myself- are ugly” phase*. But it’s different to think that as a white woman, than it is to think as a black woman. It’s just not the same. Yes, I felt anger because blonde hair and blue eyes were praised- and I have nothing of those, or when men said pale skin was ugly. But it’s still completely different than being a black woman hearing black women are ugly.
*Not to mention that “white women are ugly” phase is often racist. It’s either because black women are seen as exotic, extremely sexy or whatever by white men (which is never a good thing), or because white women see themselves as “plain and usual” and black women as “exotic and unusual” which is never a good thing- elasticizing is never a good thing. There’s no way why pale skin or freckles wouldn’t be “exotic”- after all, most of the humans don’t have those. It’s the racist society that make hings the way they are.
But don’t get me wrong, I know what is like to be white but not fitting to a white beauty ideal at all. To see all those women in media labeled as great beauties who never look like you. Still, it’s much, much different than to be a black woman not fitting to a white ideal of beauty and not seeing women who look like her in the media.
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Mira, I agree that it is possible to know in that sense. But I thought she meant in actual ancestry. Having a black great-great grandparent doesn’t have to mean that you are 1/16th black (i.e. 1/16th of your family’s origins are in Africa). In fact, it probably doesn’t mean that.
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True, because it’s about how these people identified themselves. Who knows is this person’s grandfather was white (or Turkish in my example)? But I believe you are able to say “I have a lack ancestor”, even if you can’t really measure if you’re 1/16 black or something.
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lol “elasticizing is never a good thing” was, obviously, meant to be “exoticizing is never a good thing”. 😀
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I agree, mira. the exoticness thing was part of my theory, since there are very few blacks around here, and i realize the predicament is very different. i think the problem on our side of it is just men. my boyfriend has, over the years, said he prefers
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Blacks, asians, blonds, redheads, tall women, skinny women, and women with tans. i am none of these things. he doesnt realize im keeping track and comparing.
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The only time i see a woman like me on tv is when im looking at ugly betty
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Kristi,
You look like America Ferrera? I think she’s so cute–she has a nice youthful look, and she’s late 20s I think.
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Kristi,
This may sound harsh, but instead of trying to change yourself to fit a man’s ideal, it’s always better to change a man. Nobody needs a guy who strongly prefers women who don’t look like you. Simple as that.
America Ferrera is cute, but “Ugly Betty” show is 100% annoying.
All in all, I do believe (I KNOW) white women can be hurt by other people’s comments. Many of them don’t fit the white beauty ideal. Many of them are not thin enough, blonde enough, cellulite free enough or tanned enough to fit it.
Black women have the same problem. Many of them don’t fit the black beauty ideal. So I guess it’s frustrating. It’s a common female problem.
Still, black and other non-white women (and men) have another problem, racism, which whites don’t have to worry about. When a white woman sees Heidi Klum she can get frustrated for not being that “perfect” and not looking like Heidi. But for a black woman, it’s always more than that- it’s about being black in a world dominated by whites. So white woman thinking she’s ugly, even thinking she’s ugly for being white is not the same as a black woman thinking she’s ugly for being black.
I’m not saying white women can’t be hurt by other people’s comments because they can.
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I said i realize the situation is different. maybe i rambled a bit, i’ve never been too good at expressing myself. the point was simply a passing “wow, how sadly ironic”. then i had to clarify, then irritation kinda ran away with me. sorry. that really be
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Longs in a feminist discussion, not this one.
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And i have to admit, black women being considered ugly kinda was news to me, if only because of the guys ive grown up around all think black is prdttier, i didnt realize that wasnt the norm. naive, i guess.
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Mira you are probably the most intelligent person in this discussion. I greatly appreciate you comments and analysis on this particular topic. thanks a lot
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My family has a family tree going back to 1609 and I know exactly what racial mix I am because of how detailed it is, so it is possible to know what you are 1/16th of. In my case there is little or no mixing in my line up until the 1960s. I am white, my father was fully german but my mother is half german. My family mostly has blonde hair and blue eyes. I however do not have either of those attributes because my maternal grandmother is mediterranean so I have dark eyes and hair, but my facial structure and skin tone are german.
The funny thing is I have never had a white person ask me about my race or if I am mixed, but multiple times I have had black, and in one case an asian, people ask me usually saying something like “You look like you’re mixed with something…”
My non-white grandmother is rather racist, although I only found that out recently. My mother said that her mother’s level of racism inspired her to do her best to raise my brother and I to be non-racist.
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The only time i see a woman like me on tv is when im looking at ugly betty…
América Ferrera is way hot.
My family has a family tree going back to 1609 and I know exactly what racial mix I am because of how detailed it is, so it is possible to know what you are 1/16th of. In my case there is little or no mixing in my line up until the 1960s. I am white, my father was fully german but my mother is half german. My family mostly has blonde hair and blue eyes.
That’s 20 generations, Pumpkin. So you’re SERIOUSLY telling us that you know ALL of your 2-to-the-20th-power direct ancestors?
I really, really, REALLY doubt your family tree is that detailed, even if you are a Mormon.
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(By my calculations that would be about 2 million direct ancestors, by the way…)
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Well, it depends. I do know one branch of my family tree (more or less) back to 14th century (<- European show-off/nobility obsession). But I hardly know about my other ancestors, sometimes not more than great grandparents.
The thing is, even if somebody do, in fact know, it doesn't mean anything else than, well, knowing who these people were.
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I was never told that whites were more attractive than blacks. My parents told me I was beautiful and they didn’t care if I relaxed my hair or not all they cared was that I was happy and healthy. They encouraged me to be the best that I can be I consider myself fortunate enough to not have been affected by colorism. I admit my racial issues were media influenced and didn’t come from my upbringing.
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Its a funny thing this racism bug anybody can catch it or so posts like this would have us believe. Lets assume this is true. Since most people would like to believe it is. (White and Black people) What we can’t assume and what is also true by experience and historical evidence is that a peoples (African, Asian, European, etc..) response to racism is equally the same.
In other words Racism affects each and everyone of us the same. It obviously does not. It cannot!
The very notion of the possibility there is Racism sets up an imbalance, a disparity, an inequality. If such an unequal reality exists then FROM THE START it has already created an imbalance in the perceptions and realities of peoples: African, Asian, Europeon, etc..
Therefore each groups responses are already pre-determined according to this disparity. Just to put this in clearer perspective. The perception or reality of racism needs a dislocation, an INEQUALITY, Otherwise it can’t be viewed. IT WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE!
Equally. You can not look at the RESPONSES to Racism by different groups as if it was a level playing field (ITS NOT) and categorize the responses as similar. (THEY ARE NOT)
So. If MOST white people are racist then that means MOST Black people are responding to that Racism. And if that figure of white people is as high as 95% then that doesn’t leave much room for Black people to act in a similar way. Assuming they are NOT affected by that racist 95% white majority. Who else can they be racist to but that small 5%? And that also assumes they too are NOT affected by the same views of their own 95% majority?
The ONLY people for those responding to racism who wish to be racist to are those people perceived lower in this unequal groupings of Races. So for example: Asians being racist to Black people. The only group Black people can really practice TRUE RACISM on is their OWN.
The built in imbalance created when racism is established and recognized prevents any real, true, equal and opposite action of racism. Because it is already too late.
Its like being smacked in the face by a stranger. The only true response you can offer is TO RESPOND. You would need to find another stranger who has not experienced this in order to initiate the same action FIRST!
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@ Kwamla
“Its a funny thing this racism bug anybody can catch it or so posts like this would have us believe.”
It seems like the post is more about self directed racism. At least that’s how I read it.
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True Jas0n. Its about self-directed internalized racism as many of the above posts adequately expand about.
My comment seeks to break down the implicit dynamics at play when viewing this “bug” called racism in its widest context.
This is all too conveniently lost or mis-understood in discussions of “all Black people are racist” OR “all white people are racist”.
Of course you have to first accept, agree or acknowledge racism exists to begin with. Otherwise, you simply won’t get it!
An all too frequent acknowledgment by some posters on Abagond’s blog!
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The problem is not so much that people won’t admit racism exists. The problem is that, according to them, it’s always far away (be it in space or time), something that other people did/do, something vague, a thing of past. It’s never here and now, and it’s never in ourselves for some reason.
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“It seems like the post is more about self directed racism. At least that’s how I read it.”
There has always been plenty of war and hatred between the Black races and nations within Africa itself, long before White people ever showed up for the party.
Native-American tribes were leading war parties against one another and smashing each other’s skulls in with stone axes. Across the ocean, Germanic tribes were engaging in the same hateful exercises against other Germanic tribes.
Everybody is equally capable of exercising racism.
Don’t delude yourself.
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Unfortunately, Mira. Regardless of whether people admit racism exists in the past or the future. The moment they acknowledge its existence that dynamic is automatically set up. Its inescapable.
To say it was only in the past but not in the present is just delusional thinking. But thats never stopped some people from engaging this!
If they believed racism truly didn’t exist why would it matter?
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This post is mainly about internalized racism. White people imagine black racism to be equal and opposite to white racism. It is not. It cannot be: the power imbalance is too huge.
On the other hand I do not agree with the anti-racists who say “racism = prejudice + power” and therefore blacks are not racist. Mainly because that overlooks internalized racism. While it is a side effect of white racism, it has taken on life of its own and its effects are damaging.
(Well, if you look at the history, internalized racism was not some innocent side effect: it was directly intended by white people to break the spirit of blacks to make it easier to keep them in line).
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@King.
Everybody is equally capable of exercising racism.
Don’t delude yourself.
If you analyses the dynamics at play you would have to concede this cannot be so.
Look at another example for comparison:
If 10% of the worlds population own 80% of the planets wealth and resources and have these locked down for the next 100 years. If any of the majority 90% of the world population wanted to acquire more wealth and resources they would have to get it from the remaining 20% existing planetary resources. Either that or go to war with the rich 10% for theirs.
My point being when a imbalance or inequality is set up because of the dynamics its not possible for any group to equally change this without outside (or insider) intervention.
Just like in the game of monopoly.
For this reason not everyone is equally capable of exercising true Racism. But everyone is equally capable of responding to it.
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Really… What do you define as “true racism?”
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Perhaps you should have a look at Abagond’s definiton here rather than focusing on one based on hate.
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I did. I agree with it to some extent.
I’m confused. What particular definition of racism do you believe is based on hate?
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King have another look at your own comment here:
Did I mis- read your definition?
I would not regard what you are describing here as Racism. Its inter-ethnic conflict. ALL people have engaged in it. Its not based on an innate belief of superiority over the “other”
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@ King
Your statement….
“Everybody is equally capable of exercising racism.”
may or may not be true, but it doesn’t follow logically from your examples of war and violence.
But I get your point. Sometimes the rhetoric around here would lead people to believe that Native Americans and Africans were sitting around making flower necklaces and lovingly sharing the bounties of nature until the evil white man showed up and invented violence and despair.
That said, racism is a particular kind of violence that didn’t exist until WP thought it up. So while war and violence are nothing new, racism (relatively speaking) is.
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I agree with both Kwamla and King (and Abagond, but that’s another thing).
Racism, if we define “race” the way it means for us, today, is NOT the same for everybody involved. The power imbalance is just too huge. Sure, all people can hate, but the damaging effects are simply not the same across groups. Also, whites don’t seem to suffer of internalized racism (white guilt is NOT part of this). In that sense, it’s impossible to compare white racism to non-white racism and call it “basically the same thing”.
But I agree with King, too (at least the way I understand his words). If, by “race” we don’t mean only what is considered race today, but the way other cultures constructed it (or something similar to it), we’ll see that, in fact, all groups are capable of racism. It’s really similar to ethnic hate, which exists across the globe. People all across the world are known to separate themselves from “those dirty savages” (whoever they might be), to fight with them, enslave them, dehumanize them, etc etc.
It was happening in the past and it’s happening as we speak. While these things are not completely equal to racism (in modern sense of the word), they do reveal something about humanity in general. Non-whites are not inherently, genetically, morally or in any other way born better and incapable of hate or doing horrors. Whites are not born with some kind of a colonial gene (As witnessed, if nothing else, by whites who never colonized and non-whites that attacked and enslaved whites, or with people of different ethnic groups but the same race fighting with each other).
So, all in all, refusing to see black and white racism as basically the same thing is ok, because it is NOT the same thing. But refusing to admit non-whites are capable of hate and horrors is, well, racist.
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Arrch!! Takes more explanation than I have time for at the moment. Hopefully I can explain myself better later on.
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You see Mira, this is just not my experience of history for many diverse and different cultures of peoples:
“…But I agree with King, too (at least the way I understand his words). If, by “race” we don’t mean only what is considered race today, but the way other cultures constructed it (or something similar to it), we’ll see that, in fact, all groups are capable of racism. It’s really similar to ethnic hate, which exists across the globe. People all across the world are known to separate themselves from “those dirty savages” (whoever they might be), to fight with them, enslave them, dehumanize them, etc etc…”
There have been cultures and peoples in past civilizations throughout human history which have lasted for thousands of years. How could this be so if they were continually at each others throats???!!! This, I believe, is a myth and it is supported by another myth:
“…That said, racism is a particular kind of violence that didn’t exist until WP thought it up. So while war and violence are nothing new, racism (relatively speaking) is…”
While I would agree that racism is relatively new. If we agree it didn’t exist until white people thought of it then that has to imply or lend credence to the argument that some how white people are inherently evil! They must be to come up with such an abhorrent and disrespect for human life as Racism.
Do you see where these myths are leading…?
Lets be clear… For me its too easy and simplistic to believe that white people are inherently evil or were capable on their own to have come up with this, apparently, new inhumane behavior.
There does seem to be more history missing here that needs to be explored…
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“While I would agree that racism is relatively new. If we agree it didn’t exist until white people thought of it then that has to imply or lend credence to the argument that some how white people are inherently evil! ”
I don’t see it that way at all. What makes you believe that the motivations behind racism are any more or less “evil” than those behind any other form of violence or brutality?
besides, what is this constant obsession with pinning everything on genetics? or “inherent” anything?
We all have the same drives more or less. It’s about opportunity.
Analogy: Let’s say you have 2 sides in a war. Red army Vs. Blue army.
Red army has really advanced weapons and Blue army has sticks and rocks. Which side do you think will end up killing more people and winning? Red army right? Now, does that mean the Red army was MORE evil? Of course not. Because if you would have given the better weapons to Blue army they would have killed as many as Red army did.
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Kwamla,
With all due respect, you don’t seem to know much about history in general. Or else you would not think that various groups/cultures being at each other’s throats is a myth. Nor would you believe conquest destroys strong countries (while in fact, it makes them stronger).
There have been cultures and peoples in past civilizations throughout human history which have lasted for thousands of years. How could this be so if they were continually at each others throats???!!!
It is true that small groups fighting each other rarely lead to any of them being stronger (a recent example: former Yugoslavia). But the conquest, and war, in which a stronger culture attacks a weaker- it only makes the conqueror stronger. It doesn’t destroy it in any way. Great empires and civilizations are usually destroyed not by war, but from the inside. There’s something in the society itself that initiates the fall. At the end, the empire is weak and another enemy is able to conquest it- but the main reason for destruction is, more often than not, internal problem.
So all in all, yes, cultures in general (not just white ones, or just European ones) are prone to this. It’s not a myth; it very well documented by facts.
If we agree it didn’t exist until white people thought of it then that has to imply or lend credence to the argument that some how white people are inherently evil! They must be to come up with such an abhorrent and disrespect for human life as Racism.
That is only if you believe racism is worse than other forms of hate (ethnic hate, for example), or that separating humans based on skin colour is much worse than separating them based on other criteria. But there’s no proof for this. In fact, what ended up as racism didn’t start as such (grouping people based on skin colour), it started as grouping people based on religion (and enslaving those who were not Christian). Why would slavery, or conflict, or hate based on religion be somehow “better” than same things, but based on skin colour? It isn’t.
For me its too easy and simplistic to believe that white people are inherently evil or were capable on their own to have come up with this, apparently, new inhumane behavior.
Just because it’s easy for you to believe in something, doesn’t make it true. There was nothing particularly new about racism, Kwamla. Nothing new in terms of mechanism of oppression. The only thing that was new was the criteria for dividing people into groups. Do you honestly think that Transatlantic slavery and dehumanization would be somehow better, if based on religion or ethnicity instead of race? Or that dehumanization based on religion and ethnicity is a walk in the park or so much different, in practice and consequences, than racism?
Also, your theory of white evil race and good non-white races still doesn’t explain white slaves and POC masters, or intra-racial conflicts.
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@Mira and Jas0n
With all due respect. I have to wonder strongly, sometimes, at the levels of your abilities to comprehend simple statements I make. Or is this because of who it appears to be coming from?
If you both take the time to read properly some of my last comments you will see that I have not said half of the things you are attributing to me. Please!!! I know you both can do better than that!!!
Heres just two examples you can decide between yourselves who said what:!!!
“…besides, what is this constant obsession with pinning everything on genetics? or “inherent” anything?…”
And this one…
“…Also, your theory of white evil race and good non-white races still doesn’t explain white slaves and POC masters, or intra-racial conflicts…”
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Kwamla,
It’s difficult to discuss something if, instead of arguing facts or answering the questions, you insinuate my (or anybody else’s) motives for discussion are less than honest and genuine (not because it’s offensive, but because it has nothing to do with the facts we’re discussing). So:
– Do you, or don’t you, believe that groups and cultures routinely fight each other, and that stronger cultures attack and conquest weaker ones- regardless of what we consider race today?
– Do you, or don’t you, believe that oppression based on skin colour is inherently worse than the oppression based on other criteria, such as religion, ethnicity, nationality, etc. ?
– Do you, or don’t you, believe that white people are inherently evil?
– Do you, or don’t you, believe that a) people of the same race attacked and oppressed each other during the course of history, and b) that there are examples of non-whites oppressing whites?
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I also find some of your last statements somewhat confusing, Kwamla. But again, I can’t properly address them until I’m liberated from a rather large work project that is getting in the way of my blog commenting.
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@Kwamla
“With all due respect. I have to wonder strongly, sometimes, at the levels of your abilities to comprehend simple statements I make. Or is this because of who it appears to be coming from?”
Translation:
“With all due respect. Are you stupid? or racist?”
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Its funny Mira how you always seem to want me to respond to questions you specifically pose. But when I do the same you seem to ignore them completely. Its a form of dis-jointed communication which has compelled me, at times, to write statements like this:
Kwamla
“…With all due respect. I have to wonder strongly, sometimes, at the levels of your abilities to comprehend simple statements I make. Or is this because of who it appears to be coming from?…”
But, as you say, “lets deal with facts we’re discussing” and lets see if I haven’t indeed already answered some of the questions your posing:
Mira
“…Do you, or don’t you, believe that groups and cultures routinely fight each other, and that stronger cultures attack and conquest weaker ones- regardless of what we consider race today?…”
Well… I answered that question in response to King’s comment here: (just scroll up)
Mira
“…- Do you, or don’t you, believe that oppression based on skin colour is inherently worse than the oppression based on other criteria, such as religion, ethnicity, nationality, etc. ?…”
This one is clearly a question concerned with your own beliefs because I would (and have not) made any such comparison. Your confusing different forms of conflict and labeling them all as forms of Racism
Just so you can be clear on what I do believe…
Oppression or Racism, as I understand it , is not based solely on “skin color”. Thats a weak and highly misleading definition for what Racism is. As it is directed primarily at Black people and POC its based on a doctrine of the superiority of the white people and the inferiority of Black people and POC. This doctrine encompasses multiple criteria of which “skin colour” is just one.
Mira
“…- Do you, or don’t you, believe that white people are inherently evil? …
Again. I answered that question when I posed it here in this comment:
What? Did you not see it? I said:
Kwamla
“…Lets be clear… For me its too easy and simplistic to believe that white people are inherently evil or were capable on their own to have come up with this, apparently, new inhumane behavior.
There does seem to be more history missing here that needs to be explored…”
What part of “easy and simplistic” were you not understanding?
Finally. Your last question:
Mira
“…- Do you, or don’t you, believe that a) people of the same race attacked and oppressed each other during the course of history, and b) that there are examples of non-whites oppressing whites?…”
Well. Yet again!!! If you had been reading carefully you would have noticed I already answered a) I said:
Kwamla
“…I would not regard what you are describing here as Racism. Its inter-ethnic conflict. ALL people have engaged in it. Its not based on an innate belief of superiority over the “other…”
On b). I have to admit you have got me there. May be you or anyone else can me provide me with specific historically incidences of, in particular, Black or African peoples oppressing white peoples. And this is in the form of Racist oppression as I have already described.
In terms of POC then yes. It may have occurred. But again not in the same form of Racist oppression.
Having fully answered your questions here Mira. Perhaps now you can see why I might feel justified in making my first two opening statements.
@Jas0n
I leave your “not unreasonable” translation for you to decide
@ King
This is the 2nd time you’ve expressed confusion here. I did try to help the first time if you saw my comment. Alas, on this second occasion I am at a loss to help you.
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Kwamla,
I answer any question that’s asked (unless I miss them- I can’t be online 24/7). But people need to ask a specific question. All you seem to do is quote, but not ask anything, or point at what you find confusing in my words. Or at least, I don’t see it.
Mira
“…Do you, or don’t you, believe that groups and cultures routinely fight each other, and that stronger cultures attack and conquest weaker ones- regardless of what we consider race today?…”
Well… I answered that question in response to King’s comment here: (just scroll up)
This is your answer:
“I would not regard what you are describing here as Racism. Its inter-ethnic conflict. ALL people have engaged in it. Its not based on an innate belief of superiority over the “other”
You’re right, it’s not racism. But you’re wrong about the bold part. It IS based on an innate belief of superiority over the other (not in all cases, but in MOST of them).
Oppression or Racism, as I understand it , is not based solely on “skin color”. Thats a weak and highly misleading definition for what Racism is.
Forgive me: I put “skin colour” for the sake of simplicity. I know it’s not just about skin colour. So let me rephrase my question: Do you, or don’t you, believe that oppression based on race is inherently worse than the oppression based on other criteria, such as religion, ethnicity, nationality, etc. ?
And an additional one: do you, or don’t you, believe that only in this type of oppression, oppressors see themselves superior to those they oppress?
What part of “easy and simplistic” were you not understanding?
I understood it in a way it’s easy for you to see whites as inherently evil. So if you don’t see it that way, could you please explain how you see it? What is “more history” that needs to be explored, in your opinion?
Well. Yet again!!! If you had been reading carefully you would have noticed I already answered a)
So, you do acknowledge various groups of the same race fight each other, but you believe there’s no sense of superiority/inferiority like there is in case of racism? But it’s wrong, Kwamla: there is.
I have to admit you have got me there. May be you or anyone else can me provide me with specific historically incidences of, in particular, Black or African peoples oppressing white peoples.
I was speaking of non-whites in general, but ok. Of course, we must first conclude that, in my examples, those were not really “white” or “black” or “Asian”, etc. people, because concept of race didn’t exist back then. But if we do take them the way they are seen today, it’s possible to see it. Now, I am basing this mostly on US understanding of race, in which Middle Easterners, or Egyptians, or Turks are not seen as white.
Ancient Egypt: They conquest good part of Middle East (and further), taking people of all complexions as prisoners and slaves. One of the slaves were Jews, who are considered white.
Early Middle ages: Huns, Avars: peoples originating in central Asia. Moved to Europe with killing and conquest.
Arabian conquests: Well known, no further explanation needed (right?)
Ottoman Empire: Conquered and enslaved good part of Europe (and other regions) during the late Middle ages, up to XIX and XX century.
It may have occurred. But again not in the same form of Racist oppression.
It’s not the same because the criteria wasn’t the same, and also, these were cultures different than western Europeans, who performed transatlantic slavery.
But if you really believe these forms didn’t include true oppression, or were in some way more humane, then I advise you to learn more history.
So all we can do here is sit and argue what’s worse: lynching or impaling, for example, but it would be just disrespectful to the victims and engaging in the oppression Olympics, which I’m sure none of us want to do here.
My point is, there were white people who were victims of oppression and white people who were slaves, and it simply doesn’t go with the theory of whites as a conqueror race. Furthermore, it makes no sense, because race is not a biological fact and therefore anything that determines a group of people the act the way it does needs to be cultural. And not all white (black, etc.) cultures are the same.
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Oh, sh… I, obviously, forgot to mention Genghis Khan. I apologize.
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Mira. This is not as complicated as you appear to want to portray this discussion. Heres a very direct question for you which would help clear up both our confusions.
“How do you wish to define Racism and/or Oppression as you are describing it?”
Just be straight and clear here.
I have already given you mine. Here it is again for comparison:
Again. Lets be clear here I am speaking about a specific and particular form of oppression – Racism. Not ALL forms of oppression are based on Racism. Other forms of oppression such as: religion, ethnicity, nationality etc..as you point out, are different. BUT THEY DO NOT INCLUDE Racism as I am defining it.
This is why I say they are: Inter-ethnic or religious conflicts these have been common throughout histrory.
This is my view. You obviously appear to view things differently so lets have your definition and distinction (if any) for Racism and Oppression.
Hopefully this will clear up much confusion here.
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When worst come to worst, people will fight over resource’s access rather than a vague feeling of superiority.
I think the feeling of superiority require brainwashing and conditioning in order to be effective.
Now, a monopoly over resources(land,water,etc) may induce a feeling of superiority.
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Indeed. This conversation got complicated without a need to be. It all started with my comment on different ways to define race.
Here’s what I’m saying: racism, in today’s form, is a relatively new phenomenon, created in specific time and specific place, as a specific process. It’s different than ethnic or religious conflict of oppression.
Race, in today’s form is therefore a relatively new concept that didn’t exist, in this form, before.
However. Something similar to “race” did exist. Similar in a way of grouping people not based on any other solid criteria such as ethnicity or religion. If you put your group (and, maybe, similar groups) on one side, and other groups on other side, using a criteria such as “they don’t speak X language”, you are, in a way- in a way!- creating different races. Race X is defined as “those who speak X language”, and race Y is defined as “those who don’t, and are barbaric and inferior”. I am NOT saying it’s the same as modern idea of race, however, it does share some similar traits. Similarly, distinctive groups that Ancient Egyptians recognized could all be called races, in lack of a better term, because they were not created using any other distinctive criteria (such as religion, or ethnicity).
In that sense, “ancient racism” did exist, and in this sense, you could say “racism” (if races are defined as “grouping people based on random criteria”) seem to be more universal than the usual, white European racism.
But I in no way or form argue these things are the same as what we know as racism today. However, I do think there are similarities. Because, at the end of the day, the way you want to define race is completely random and arbitrary. You and I could define a race based on eye colour (in which most of the human on Earth would belong to one race, and a relatively small population, mostly from Northern and Western Europe, would belong to a different race). And it’s as legitimate as any other way you want races to be defined, because there’s nothing objective or natural about it. (Race, I mean).
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Mira. In order to avoid further confusion and in an attempt to diffuse extraneous arguments or debates here. Could you perhaps summarize your definition (if possible) in few sentences?
As concise as you can perhaps?
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***But most of their prejudice and hatred is turned inward. Whatever hatred blacks direct against whites and Asians it is nothing compared to the hatred they direct against themselves.***
Interestingly, blacks have higher levels of self esteem than whites or asians.
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Definition of what, race?
Race is a social construct in people are separated in groups based on random criteria (such as, but is not limited to, geography, or physical appearance).
Different cultures might have different ways to separate people into races, or different criteria based on which they do the grouping people into races.
Races, defined like this, are completely random and not based on any natural, or even clear social criteria (such as religion). Therefore, they are really fluid. Even in time when one idea of race is widespread (like today, when European idea of race is well known), different cultures might have different ideas about which groups of people belong to which race. This is evidenced by different ways races are seen in, say, USA and Europe.
If race was something objective, then it would not be possible to say that one person belongs to one race in America, other in Brazil, and third in Europe.
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Mira. Please this is not the question I asked you!!!
Here is the question again. Just click on the comment for it.
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I agree with Mira. I grew up in a very Afrocentic school when they were told the 5 percent bs. We were told that blacks were over every race and they still found a way to look down on others. They don’t consider me one of their own because I didn’t connect mainsteam “Black” culture and they won’t consider anything but west africa was truely black. (No cajuns, west indians, east africans, zambos) I was told that it was wrong to dress goth because it’s a “white” thing. I was spat upon and told that I was a dirty injun. They would laughat the Jews in camps and told that it didn’t matter.Despite, the fact that the gothic style is popular is Asia. Treating people as trash based off the fact they don’t act or look like you is horrible. I feel the whole ” Racism isn’t as serious by Blacks” is cop-out for people to be jacka**. I’m so glad they closed that horrible school down
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Kwamla,
The question you asked was: “How do you wish to define Racism and/or Oppression as you are describing it?”
So, you are asking about my definition of racism, not race? Sorry. I thought you were asking about race, since that was what we’re talking about.
To me, racism is any form of practicing the division of people based on race. It can be oppression, or hate, but it doesn’t have to be. The mere distinction between “us” and “them” based on race might not be racism, but even that is close to it, because each group assigns positive characteristic to “us” and negative to “them” (which seems to be universal with humans). So I might be a bit harsh in my definition here, but I’d say anything that goes beyond mere stating the fact of someone’s race is racism. Any action, no matter if it’s not oppressive, offensive or hateful.
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@ Kwamala
Yeah it’s just to bad you went for the thinly veiled ad hom right off the bat. So far 3 people have basically told you several times that we can’t understand what you’re talking about. Do the math. Maybe it’s you not us.
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“Interestingly, blacks have higher levels of self esteem than whites or asians.”
Blacks verbally express more self-confidence in their group than whites do, but results from a recent study which examined subconscious attitudes indicate that blacks are actually less confident than whites.
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http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/10/101007111504.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+sciencedaily+(ScienceDaily:+Latest+Science+News)
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“I agree with Mira. I grew up in a very Afrocentic school when they were told the 5 percent bs. We were told that blacks were over every race and they still found a way to look down on others. They don’t consider me one of their own because I didn’t connect mainsteam “Black” culture and they won’t consider anything but west africa was truely black. (No cajuns, west indians, east africans, zambos) I was told that it was wrong to dress goth because it’s a “white” thing. I was spat upon and told that I was a dirty injun. They would laughat the Jews in camps and told that it didn’t matter.Despite, the fact that the gothic style is popular is Asia. Treating people as trash based off the fact they don’t act or look like you is horrible. I feel the whole ” Racism isn’t as serious by Blacks” is cop-out for people to be jacka**. I’m so glad they closed that horrible school down”
In 21st century America, I think we’re going to see less and less of a color line and more and more of a culture line.
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@Jas0n
Thats a shame if thats all you seem able to contribute to this debate Jas0n. I had you down as a bit more, lets say, “aware” this discussion has obviously found your “Racism awareness limit”
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Thats an interesting study FG. It does seem to highlight some of the uncomfortable reactions we observe through individual personal experience and how differently both Black and white people respond when confronted with specific questions regarding Racism and its affects.
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@kwamla
Oh noes! Don’t take back my racism awareness cookies!
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FG:
Thanks for the link.
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Lets see if you earn back some of those cookies then Jas0on. Perhaps you could help explain to me what Mira is trying to say in her definition of Racism and oppression. Because for the life of me I really can’t make “heads” or “tails” of it?
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Kwamla,
Why aren’t you asking me, then? What makes you think jas0nburns knows better what I’m trying to say than I do?
What part of my answer(s) do you find confusing?
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@ Mira
I don’t see how you could be any more clear.
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I have read through this blog and it doesn’t make much sense to me because the people who have perpetrated racism in this country and not taking the time to look inside themselves. Some white people are too self-serving, egotistical, and judgmental and point their fingers at others. It also sounds like the people that commented on this blog are extremely jealous of how black people look. A quick history lesson: It was white people who started the terms “nappy”, “unruly” “kinky” to degrade black people’s hair. Black people should have never listened to this crap in the first place. Black people should have known not to be so quick to believe what these people say!
Mira and jasOnburns seem to be supporting each other, but know not what they are speaking of. This is part of the problem with white people regarding racism and prejudice in this country. No matter confusing or how much lieing is going on; white people will support each other. This makes white people a very distrusting race of people. No offense to all white people, but to the one’s that know who I’m speaking of. It’s like they cannot look inside themselves. They live in a fantasy world and hide behind racism and play the white supremacy game because that is what it is–a game, as the most confident people in the world using their lieing history books, white media and Hollywood as their shield and underneath it all they are scared as hell and have not put their weapons down in the past 500 years.
I could say a whole lot more on this point.
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Abdul,
I do not “support” jas0nburns. Find one post in this thread where I support him, or even reply to his comments.
Furthermore, my comments and attitude can hardly be a “part of the problem with white people in this country”, if, by this country, you mean US.
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“Mira and jasOnburns seem to be supporting each other, but know not what they are speaking of. This is part of the problem with white people regarding racism and prejudice in this country. No matter confusing or how much lieing is going on; white people will support each other. “
Oh please… spare me the amateur skin color psychology. Jason and Mira can take care of themselves… so I don’t need to play nursemaid for either of them. But they have both gone up against White knuckleheads many, many, times on this site… more times, in fact than I’ve seen you do… What did you say your name was again?
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“Your statement….
‘Everybody is equally capable of exercising racism.’
may or may not be true, but it doesn’t follow logically from your examples of war and violence.”
@ Jason
It depends on what you mean, and what I mean. Firstly, I’m not saying that everyone has the same power or opportunity to express their racism, I am saying that racial prejudice is a widespread phenomenon. I don’t believe that it’s inevitable, but it is common. War has very often been the tool of Tribalism and Racism is just tribalism, writ large.
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@ Kwamla
Sorry for the delay… so you were saying that the wars and hatred between African races was somehow different and non-racist.
Why is that? Is it because you think they look too much alike to be racist? They are… what was the word.. inter-ethnic wars of hatred?
How do you figure?
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“Furthermore, my comments and attitude can hardly be a “part of the problem with white people in this country”, if, by this country, you mean US.”
You seem so wrapped up into US culture and society that that might be a plausible charge 😉 Why don’t you just apply for citizenship and move here? I’ll personally vouch for you to the Immigration and Naturalization Service.
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FG,
Actually, I am thinking about emigration these days, but I’m more interested in Canada.
Wait… Do I really seem so wrapped up into US culture? If yes, there might be a reason for it. First thing, it’s because of globalization: US culture, in a way, is my culture, it’s everybody’s (or almost everybody’s) culture, only mixed with local culture (glocalization). So, in a way, understanding US helps me understand my own culture.
Second thing, as someone dealing with anthropology, I am interested in other cultures, and West seems to be something I am interested in. There are plenty of anthropological works in which Westerners deal with non-Westerners, or in which Westerners deal with themselves, or in which non-Westerners deal with themselves. But non-Westerners dealing (exploring) Westerners seem to be rare (though some works exist), and I am interested in it.
In a way, to understand today’s world, you must understand its most powerful country, and that happens to be US.
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“Actually, I am thinking about emigration these days, but I’m more interested in Canada.”
Other than Quebec, there isn’t too much of a difference from my experience. A bit less crime and guns north of the border I suppose. And they say “eh” alot. Given your extensive anthropological studies, I’m sure you would fit in well.
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Thanks. But first I need to find a way to go: they are not interested in anthropologists; they want engineers.
The main reason I don’t want to go to US is the lack of decent health care. They say it’s much better in Canada.
(Sorry for the off topic).
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@Mira:
We’d be happy to have you. 😀
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@abdul
It seems to me abdul your one of few commentators who have actual taken the time to read through the numerous posting in this topic of “All Blacks are racist”.
Its obviously reflected in your honest, straight and frank observations. For that reason alone I for one would be interested in anything more you might want to add to this debate.
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“This is part of the problem with white people regarding racism and prejudice in this country. No matter confusing or how much lieing is going on; white people will support each other.”
I’m inclined to agree with you actually. Another thing white people do that is racist is assume that POC inject race into everything for no good reason. I was going on the assumption that POC don’t actually do this however you Abdul and Kwamla have just proven me wrong. Apparently it’s not unheard of.
I suppose I can’t just assume POC are being genuine when it comes to racism anymore. Some people it seems are quite cynical about it.
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Racism is an integral experienced part of daily life for Black people and POC regardless of whether they choose to acknowledge this or not. Society has been con-structured that way.
I am sure as you well know yourself Jas0n. Black people are in a far better position to point out racism than are white people. Getting white people just willing to listen of course can be the hardest part.
The reason:
It evokes a challenge to constantly de-construct/ re-construct possible racist beliefs and ideas. Not something they may wish to do day in day out.
However, this is the reality for Black people and POC IF they wish to challenge de-construct/re-construct the possibly negative internalized racist beliefs and ideas they absorb daily.
Nothing cynical about those realities…unless of course your privileged enough not to have to encounter either of them…
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I ask you again, Kwamla:
When genetically different peoples of African descent decide that the “other” dark-skinned “race” is to be eliminated, dominated, enslaved, or treated than less than human, why is this not considered racism in your world.
Again, I point out that the people discriminating against one another are as genetically different from one another as any other “races” we acknowledge today.
http://scienceblogs.com/geneticfuture/2009/04/massive_study_of_african_genet.php
Why is their racism somehow different?
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Also, let’s not forget people of different races are often genetically more similar than those belonging to the same race. Race is, simply, not a biological fact, so it shouldn’t be treated as such.
As for white unity, it obviously exists. Not sure if other races react the same way, but whites do tend to protect each other (be it in practice or discussions). It can go against commentors of other races, or in private spaces, the ones Victoria called “white chambers”. It’s rare to see whites challenging each others’ ideas when a non white person is present. And it doesn’t have to be about race at all! (I haven’t seen it in real world, only online, but it does happen a lot. It’s interesting to note POC often leave conversation when it’s obvious nobody would listen to them, but whites continue to discuss and support each other long after the person is gone).
And then there’s another type of whites, those who consider themselves actively anti-racist, who just repeat stuff POC say. There’s nothing really wrong about it (particularly if it’s something about race), but sometimes, it can be patronizing, when white people take liberty of speaking for POC, as if they are not able to do that for themselves, or when a white person silences other whites (even if they share the same beliefs), in order not to lose “cookies” gained with POC. (A kind of token white ally- as if there can be only one in a given group, and any other is seen as a threat).
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“Also, let’s not forget people of different races are often genetically more similar than those belonging to the same race. “
Or, stated differently, people who are supposedly members of the same old-school race divisions may, in fact, be more genetically different from one another than they are from members of other “races.”
“Gubi is the first person from an African minority population to be fully sequenced, and comparing him to the other three men from the region shows as much genetic separation as you’d expect to find between European and Asian peoples. Says Schuster: “This is despite the fact that they sometimes live within walking distance of one another”
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/80beats/2010/02/18/genomes-of-desmond-tutu-bushmen-show-africas-huge-genetic-diversity/
So when these groups/races discriminate against each other it isn’t racism? Why?
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King
I know you can read so if you’ve followed this discussion and read any of my previous comments you will see I gave my definition of what I am calling Racism and other forms of oppression.
In “my world” these forms of oppression your describing I would not label as forms of racism. You would, Mira would and also Jason would. But the problem each of you have, apart from trying to distinguish clearly (define) what you mean by “Racism and/or oppression”, is you are unable to separate out Racism as it has been applied against African/Black peoples in the genocides of Transatlantic slavery or the Jewish Holocaust. That is unless of course you view these as just a continuation of the usual inter-ethnic, cultural, religious, nationalistic, etc…wars that have occurred in past times. Perhaps you do ? (But I don’t!)
Its hard to say until you commit yourself to some of form of concise definition. This is the number one reason why you can appear be all collectively saying the same thing (What ever that is???) even though you may well agree and disagree between yourselves!!!
Until you commit to doing this how can you possible get to grips with understanding the internationalism of Racism and its affects on Black people or POC?
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It isn’t racism because these groups are not recognized as separate races. But if they were, yes, it would be racism.
My whole point in this thread was that the way you (you= a culture) can define races is completely random and not based on any solid criteria. Whenever a culture groups people into distinctive groups, there’s a race creating at work. So hate and oppression or war that arise based on this groupings could also be called racism. Once again: if race is defined by eye colour, and brown eyed people start discriminating against blue eyed people, it would be racism. But in today’s sense of the word, it’s not.
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Kwamla,
I don’t understand why you don’t see Holocaust (and Hitler’s idea of Aryan race) as an example of racism. It’s almost a generic example of it.
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And when I say “generic”, I mean “typical”.
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I’m going back to King original comment which got this thing rolling.
“Native-American tribes were leading war parties against one another and smashing each other’s skulls in with stone axes. Across the ocean, Germanic tribes were engaging in the same hateful exercises against other Germanic tribes.
Everybody is equally capable of exercising racism.
Don’t delude yourself.”
War between Native American tribes and Germanic tribes was not racism. Period.
However those conflicts do have something in common with racism. Us vs. them mentality and willingness to dehumanize and commit brutal acts of violence against the other.
Racism is different only in that it uses a different set of criteria to define the other. Race. That’s what makes it racism.
The fact that whites created and use this set of criteria (race) to define the other does not make white people more inherently sinister as Kwamla proposed. Because the act of othering is as old as time itself and in no way unique to whites.
However the effect of the racial brand of othering is historically unique in many ways more damaging. Much as a war fought with guns is more damaging than one fought with sticks.
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King, I think I need to make myself clearer. My comment was simply my obvservation and perspective on All Blacks Are Racist. I’m sorry that you did not like what I said. But I believe in honesty and unfortunately everyone doesn’t feel that way.
When a people are treated in a country for several centuries like something lower than a dog from a people who are different from them; all sorts of things come out of our psyche for both black and white people. Both peoples need to have compassion and patience wrapped up in truth for one another. One people have had to cope, deal with, fight and triumph with great courage to change the way things are. The other people have had to relent, admit, acknowledge, relinguish white pride and muster the courage to change. How challenging it is for both people, but very possible! One thing I can say is that both peoples have come a long way.
In case you did not know King, everything is psychology. How do you suppose white people were able to brainwash blacks in America? Psychology! But what they failed to realize was that they too were brainwashed.
King, I did not suggest that you be a nursemaid for anyone. I simply observed this blog and some of the comments of what appeared to be from rascist bloggers, I chose not comment directly, but made bold enough statements for a broader point of view. King, you should spare yourself the professional, not amateur agony of your own mind.
Thank you Kwamla for the compliment:)
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I’ll get back at you later, Abdul.
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@Mira and Jas0n
I have concluded we must be communicating in different languages. You either are unable to grasp my words, mis-construe them or maybe are really just that dumb!
Please help me out. Which is it??? I can make accommodation accordingly.
Now I wouldn’t expect you to just accept my word on this so I am going to show you (and anybody else reading) just exactly what I mean:
Mira
I don’t understand why you don’t see Holocaust (and Hitler’s idea of Aryan race) as an example of racism. It’s almost a generic example of it.
Kwamla
But the problem each of you have, apart from trying to distinguish clearly (define) what you mean by “Racism and/or oppression”, is you are unable to separate out Racism as it has been applied against African/Black peoples in the genocides of Transatlantic slavery or the Jewish Holocaust. That is unless of course you view these as just a continuation of the usual inter-ethnic, cultural, religious, nationalistic, etc…wars that have occurred in past times. Perhaps you do ? (But I don’t!)
Now Mira. I ask you honestly which part of what I said here do you not understand? Hint: I placed it in bold for you!!!
Onto you Jas0n
The fact that whites created and use this set of criteria (race) to define the other does not make white people more inherently sinister as Kwamla proposed.
Kwamla
“…Lets be clear… For me its too easy and simplistic to believe that white people are inherently evil or were capable on their own to have come up with this, apparently, new inhumane behavior.
There does seem to be more history missing here that needs to be explored…”
What part of “easy and simplistic” were you not understanding?
Funny. On this particular question I am getting a strange feeling of “deja vu”!! Mira can you help Jas0n out here please!!!
I’ll expand…NO! I do not believe white people come up with this belief system of Racial Superiority/Black Inferiority independently. They inherited it. They enhanced, developed and propagated it. But they did not originate it. So who did? This is the part of history which appears missing and needs further exploration…
It interesting that you should want to maintain the opposite view here Jas0n because that actually leads to the inescapable conclusion that ONLY white people have been capable of inventing a brutal, barbaric, oppressive and inhumane system like Racism (as I defined it) Entrenching the superiority of ONE race over the inferiorisation of ALL others. Cumulating in genocidal horrors like: (are you reading this Mira) Transatlantic slavery and the Jewish Holocaust.
Because no Black or POC have approached anything like this in past history.
Surely only a Godless, soulless, Evil species of human being could perpetuate this for 100’s of years?
See Jas0n this is what YOU really must be believe.
As I have said previously and I can say it again here. (you probably didn’t read it anyway) If you do not have a full appreciation and understanding of Racism (as I am defining it) how can you possible get to grips with understanding the INTERNALIZATION of Racism and its affects on Black people or POC?
Which after all is what this blog post is about.
Mira and Jas0n please try to be more diligent in your reading of my comments. Otherwise I will assume a lack of respect is occurring in regard to comments I post here. I should not have to continually point out these over sights to you both.
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Ok, Kwamla, now you’re stepping into the ad hominem. I sure won’t return the favour, but I won’t answer either, until you focus back on comments instead of commenters.
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As I said, the only thing that makes racism a unique form of brutality is:
1. The criteria by which one defines the other (race)
2. The power to enforce this definition on a massive scale. In other words, to make it stick.
I’m open to any rational argument that contradicts this, but so far I haven’t heard one.
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Kwamla the basis of our disagreement is this;
“Its inter-ethnic conflict. ALL people have engaged in it. Its not based on an innate belief of superiority over the “other””
As Mira said, your dead wrong here. The innate belief of superiority over the other is always the driving force behind these conflicts. Always! Racism is not unique IN THIS REGARD.
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No it is not am afraid….!
Jas0n the basis of our disagreement is this:
Neither yourself or Mira are capable of providing an adequate or concise definition of Racism.
Why is this necessary?
In oder to account for and explain the phenomenon of Black internalized, self-hatred. Or Black Racism.
As Abagond has already commented:
“…This post is mainly about internalized racism. White people imagine black racism to be equal and opposite to white racism. It is not. It cannot be: the power imbalance is too huge…
All my posts here have been an attempt to explain how I see the dynamics of this relationship by:
(1) Accounting for what we have come to understand Racism OR Racist oppression to mean
(2) Distinguishing between other forms of oppression
(3) Showing the qualitative difference between white and Black Racism
Which is why I can repeat this from my last comment here:
“…As I have said previously and I can say it again here. (you probably didn’t read it anyway) If you do not have a full appreciation and understanding of Racism (as I am defining it) how can you possible get to grips with understanding the INTERNALIZATION of Racism and its affects on Black people or POC? …”
None of the comments from Mira or yourself have come any where near addressing any of this concern. And to be quite honest I very much doubt they ever will.
Which begs the question of why you felt the need to comment on this topic in the first place? Perhaps to tell me, as in your last comment:
“…As Mira said, your dead wrong here. The innate belief of superiority over the other is always the driving force behind these conflicts. Always! Racism is not unique IN THIS REGARD…
Many thanks for sharing this much needed insight!!! (NOT REALLY!!)
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“Jas0n the basis of our disagreement is this:
Neither yourself or Mira are capable of providing an adequate or concise definition of Racism.”
Right, because THAT’S necessary. We totally need to redefine racism in every thread. (sarcasm)
Is this your definition?
“Oppression or Racism, as I understand it , is not based solely on “skin color”. Thats a weak and highly misleading definition for what Racism is. As it is directed primarily at Black people and POC its based on a doctrine of the superiority of the white people and the inferiority of Black people and POC. This doctrine encompasses multiple criteria of which “skin colour” is just one.”
How can racism be “primarily directed at black people and POC” yet somehow “not be based on skin color” ?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Maybe you have your own personal, special definition of racism. That’s fine. I go with the common definition of racial prejudice+ power=racism.
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Ok Jas0n I know this is probably hard for you. And I see you’ve decided it probably is a good idea to go one step at a time.
So lets do it like that…on to step two.
(2) Distinguishing between other forms of oppression
(3) Showing the qualitative difference between white and Black Racism
I put (3) in there just in case. But don’t worry I will remind you again when we get to step three.
I agree no need to rush we can take this slow!!!
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Really Abagond?
“I know this is probably hard for you”
“don’t worry I will remind you again when we get to step three. I agree no need to rush we can take this slow!!!”
That condescension laden, disrespectful comment was OK by you but my response crossed the line huh? ok.
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Fortunately we are all mortals no matter our skin colour. I am black and very happy to be me.
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I’ve what I noticed about what white americans and black americans have in common. They both tend sugarcoat and refuse to ament to the pain that cause others. Racism will never end if people don’t man up and see things from both ways. Both are wrong and should be stopped. The way that blacks treat gays and any other black not in the same culture and the way that whites treat POC are both wrong. Hell, they both use the same agruements. No race is a 100 persent victim. Whites are bogus, but I believe black people are just as bad. Sorry, that how I feel.
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Black people ARE more racist that all other races. They are against oppression and racism, yet THEY are the most racist and oppressive now. I am a Native, so don’t go thinking I’m against minorities, but we have to realize a few things:
1) Obama is NOT Black – he is 6.25% Black, 43.75% Arab, and 50% Caucasian.
2) Obama is NOT the first part-Black president – he is the SIXTH. There are several books that outline this very clearly – one written by a Black man.
3) Obama DID get elected by a racist vote – people WANTED a Black to be in office. This is RACISM. Racism is when someone feels superior to another race. Blacks THINK they have larger organs, are better athletes, better dancers … THIS IS RACISM!!! And after saying “there is no difference except for skin colour”.
Also, there ARE differences in races – thinking there aren’t is both naive and uneducated. We Natives have a SLEW of things that we can’t metabolize (carbohydrates), and Blacks have a slow of things that – medically speaking – makes Blacks different: inherent high blood pressure to name one of about 70. I have 4 physicians in the family, so don’t think of a rebuttal.
If Blacks want to end racism, STOP BEING RACIST IN YOUR MUSIC, movies, and in public!! And if “Black is beautiful”, then STOP DATING ONLY WHITE GIRLS. PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH!!
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Was MC Squared’s post a comedic parody of how to make an intelligent one?
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@MC Squared
I have heard the “Blacks are racist cuz they voted for Obama” mess about a thousand times. I don’t agree with that at all. Did some people vote for him bc he was Black? Undoubtedly. Would Black people have voted for him if he was Republican. No…
Also I don’t know why you believe Obama has that ridiculous amount of Arab ancestry. Kenya may be close to Arabia, but it is still in South Saharan Africa. I mean, have you seen his father and other African family members? I don’t know how you can get any Blacker than that.
If Blacks are racist for seeing Obama as Black than so is Obama and many other White Americans. If that is what he identifies with than what is the problem? People define race differently from society to society.
Stop dating white girls?
Have you looked at interracial marriage statistics? If those numbers are indicative of the racial dating patterns within this country than Black is in fact pretty damn beautiful.
Lol your entire post is a joke. Question:How many Blacks do you know personally, befriended, or interacted with on a regular basis?
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YES IM BLACK AND RACIST AND ONCE YOU BECOME FAMILIAR WITH HIS-STORY AND THE EVIL HE HAS COMMITTED TO PEOPLE WHO LOOK LIKE ME IT IS WISE FOR ME TO BE RACIST BECAUSE THE DESCENDANTS OF THESE VILE PEOPLE ARE WHO I HAVE TO DEAL WITH
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Why do blacks teach there children about what the white man did. why not teach them about love, and liveing together. Why is it never mention how the whites set up the undrground railroad, to get the slave to freedom rom Vermont to Canada.
Why do black call each other the n word. Is it because they want to keep the hated spirit alive. Why is it there is places in the united states were the white man can not walk? Time to get it together and love one another.
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.
Why do YOU stereotype an entire grouping of people?
Here’s a documented survey fact that may surprise you
— MOST of the black people in the U.S. DO NOT teach
their children to hate white (or any other) people or to
use the ‘n-word’ (a term created by the U.S. media)
By the way — here is a historical fact — that probably will
also surprise you — MOST of the ‘slaves’ that were in
the U.S. were NOT even ‘black’ anyway (which is one
reason the underground-railroad worked so well).
MOST were ‘metis’, ‘mulatto’ and even ‘white’ — due
to the FACT that LESS THAN 6% of the black people
kidnapped from Africa were even brought to the U.S.
(the majority were sent to the Caribbean and Brazil).
THUS — you REALLY need to spend more time educating
yourself on the various groups in the U.S. and less time
WHINING about the false assumptions that you have
made about any of them — as, having studied ‘racial
and ethnic groups’ in the U.S. for several decades —
I know for a fact that MOST of the ‘black’ people in
the U.S. do NOT even discuss ‘old’ topics like ‘slavery’
anymore — as ‘segregation’ is actually the topic that
upsets most of them (and IF you knew anything about
that particular group — rather than simply assuming that to
know what they discuss — you would have known this as well).
.
The links below may be of help in educating you on
the REAL FACTS of ‘race and slavery’ in the U.S.
.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/4238
.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/4239
.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/4240
.
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This blog entry was very good. I personally hate the term reverse racism it is an oxymoron I prefer the term privilege intolerance becuse people have the right to be privilege intolerant becuse privilege of one leads to the oppression of the other
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David Depow,
Why do blacks teach there children about what the white man did. why not teach them about love, and liveing together. Why is it never mention how the whites set up the undrground railroad, to get the slave to freedom rom Vermont to Canada.
Why do black call each other the n word. Is it because they want to keep the hated spirit alive. Why is it there is places in the united states were the white man can not walk? Time to get it together and love one another.
Why not teach the children about white racism?
Why is teaching such considered hatred?
Why ask us why we call ourselves the same word white people have called us for years to this day out of shear hatred?
Why is there STILL places in the U.S. where the black man can not walk in this day?
Why is telling the truth not considered love?
Allpeople Gifts,
Who on Earth is really talking about slavery here? Abagond or you?
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@ Allpeople Gifts
Metis and Mulatto are mixed people. Mulatto were slaves because one of the parents were black and due to the one drop rule they were considered black. One thing you missed in your rants about facts (may want to familiarize yourself with some) is that there were larger number of black slaves than whites and most white slaves were not slaves but indentured servants. It just boggles my mind when people post links but don’t read them.
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@Sharina
I will back you up on this one but you are right about Mulattos and Metis being mixed race people. You are right, don’t let others tell you otherwise.
@BrothaWolf
I don’t see why MANY Whites think that teaching young, Black children about White supremacy and racism is racist in itself. Maybe if maybe more Black parents spoke to their children about racism and White supremacy, Black kids would be more careful in their actions around Whites. Or maybe learn to love and accept their own people.
Personally, as a young, Black woman, I think it is the Black parents’ responsibility to tell their children about White supremacy and the effects and learn to love your race and your skin color. I have seen way too many Black parents promote light over dark skin either consciously or subconsciously. Us Blacks need to know who we are, where we came from and where we are going in order to succeed in this racist society.
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Anyone else tired of walking down the street and a black woman glares at you from head to toe? Anyone else tired of black men smirking at you because he has a white girlfriend as if you care?
I am black and im tired of the lack of responsibility I refuse to blame everything on white people you know why? My ancestors were in shackles in the field fighting for feedom working together Now what do we have today? People who sit on their ass whining about white people Asians went through racism in america Yet alot (not all) own OUR hair business own the corner store and are working high paying jobs like doctors and can barely speak english So do some black people But you know what? Other races look out for each other hire each other etc Black people will get into a little position of power and foresake you i see it all the time if a black kid is smart and works hard at school he is called an oreo Black culture is so damn dependent Why cant we start our own businesses and make our own schools why do we whine about white people in white schools not teaching enough black history ? Da fuck you think?Black people need to have pride and work together not expect the white to give a shit Do we whine to asians about this stuff? Hispanics? They make sure they give back to their community while dumbass rappers and nfl players worship massa’s daughters
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This is a good post, you should repost it. I am reading the earlier post from a couple of years ago, they are very interesting. I guess it’s true that black people are not a monolith. There are some diverse perspectives on this subject.
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It probably depends on where you live, but I have not experienced racism from black people. Not even ONCE. And I have to say the racism I faced in my life so far came from white people.
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So why is it considered “bad” for Blacks to hate themselves, but if whites hate ourselves and our culture, and everything we’ve achieved, those whites are considered “enlightened” somehow?
I repeat: Whites who hate OUR own race=Good
Blacks who hate THEIR own race=Heretics
Why the double-standard?
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Also, if a white person wants to kill Blacks, that person is horrible, but if Blacks want to–or even DO–kill whites, it’s the “hate that hate created”, It’s “justified”, “Blacks have a right to be racist” (Said to me on another page on this very blog!)
Even on THIS page, “IT IS WISE FOR ME TO BE RACIST BECAUSE THE DESCENDANTS OF THESE VILE PEOPLE ARE WHO I HAVE TO DEAL WITH”
Why doesn’t this person go to a country where they don’t have to deal with us “VILE PEOPLE”?
I also object to the sudden shift that “privilege” is a dirty word–but ONLY for whites in white countries. Noone dares speak out against Chinese privilege in China, and speaking out against Moslem privilege anywhere is “Islamophobia”.
Why is only white privilege something evil that leads to oppression and must be abolished, but other peoples’ privilege in THEIR countries is just fine, if not encouraged?
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What’s your point besides venting your foolishness? Do you actually have one? Why are you here, you read like a broken record, same fecal matter, different toilet bowl. At least come up with some new garbage to spew.
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What is YOUR point other than playing “Me Too” to even worse foolishness?
Why are whites and whites alone wrong for occupying the superior position in our own countries?
There was a time when American blacks did not obsess of skin. Up into the 40’s, most prominent blacks held two opinions.
One was they had to fit in with the white world in order to have a chance. AND they had to control the portion of their people who could not behave. That was the Booker T. Washington wing.
The minority opinion was the W.E.B. Dubois view. That was a focus on being Black and being separate. Instead of joining in with the whites, Blacks had to carve out their own space, from white America. The “keepsing it realz” faction came to dominate the Civil Rights movement with the help of the Left.
Sadly, “goodwhites” chose a winner.
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What if everyday you woke up and knew you were the problem?
That is what Blacks have to face every day. Then project it on whites. Whites are magically the problem.
That’s why Blacks are so racist: THEY HAVE TO BE FOR MENTAL SURVIVAL!
To admit they have been the problem for at least the past 50 years, if not the past 150, would make them die of embarrassment/depression/suicide en-masse, rather than assimilate. We’ve seen it before at the fall of Nazi Germany, people who would rather their LIVES end than their worldview!
For example, it’s pretty embarrassing to have Ta-Nehisi Coates be thought of as your most foremost public intellectual, but then again Black Failure is a proven moneymaker.
The “Talented Tenth” is unique among elites in that their legacy has become *suffering*, and they hold fast to that legacy because it’s invaluable—the perception that black Americans have suffered uniquely among peoples has them DOMINATING politics and culture; not despite a history of failure but because of it. It’s the greatest con ever. Combined with Black dominance in culture and sports, it has this population hitting above its weight like no other. By “weight” of course I mean its contribution to the commonweal.
Conventional thinking on race doesn’t exaggerate the problem, it inverts it. Reverse the arrow of causation, reverse the arrow of Moral Responsibility. The uneasy Left senses this. It isn’t that white America cannot honor its debt to Blacks because the sins are too profound, it’s that Black America can’t honor its end of the bargain–to eventually become peaceful and productive–due to a lack of human capital and will. Anchored to a moralistic fallacy–Black intellectual inferiority is unthinkable ergo impossible–we can only go down, and we do, scrambling to define deviancy down and adapt mores to accommodate Black behavior.
And of course, “goodwhites” nurture this. Who do you think established African American Studies or Critical Race Theory?
Who do you think awarded Coates hundreds of thousands of dollars?
But of course we all know what’s going on here. This is a skirmish in the Cold Civil War. Coates, meritless in himself, is just a handy token. This is goodwhite elites–as represented by the MacArthur Foundation–sticking a finger in the collective eye of badwhites. You know, us selfish, evil, racist, meritocrats, who believe in rewarding GOOD behavior and PUNISHING bad behavior?
This is just Affirmative Action taken to the next level. Coates got the grant for being this year’s Pet Black, just as Barack Obama got the Nobel Prize for being Pet Black of 2008. It’s goodwhites’ way of mocking and humiliating the tens of millions of nonblacks–and even blacks–who are better writers than Coates, the tens of millions who are worthier of a Nobel Prize, on any rational meritocratic basis, than Obama.
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Do you have a job? You seem to spend an inordinate amount of time on the internet, pontificating and bloviating(not necessarily in that order).. Perhaps you are independently wealthy? If so, are you married? If not not send me your number I don’t care if you are a few cards short of a deck! Your cash would more than make up for it!
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This post truly gives me pause.
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I hate the use of the n-word I don’t care who uses it it’s a vile and ugly word. Nobody should be saying it.
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I love being racist! It turns me on!
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Reblogged this on Project ENGAGE.
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