Russia is the largest country by the size of its land, but much of it is in the cold north where few live. It has about as many people as Japan, Java, Pakistan or Brazil. America has twice as many people as it does.
It is still one of the top powers of the world, but it is not as powerful as it once was.
In the late 1900s both Russia and America had enough atom bombs to blow each other up and much of the rest of the world too. For about 40 years the world stood on the edge of complete destruction in what was called the Cold War.
In those days Russia was ruled by communists. They remade society according to the ideas of Karl Marx. The government owned everything. There was no private property: you could not buy land or run your own business. The government ran everything.
The people were not free. It was a democracy on paper, but the communists won every election. The people were not allowed to form their own parties to stand against the communists in elections. They had no freedom of speech or religion. The television and the newspapers and even most of the writers repeated government lies.
When the communists took over Russia in 1918 they kept its empire – the neighbouring countries it ruled to the west and the south – and named the whole thing the Soviet Union, also known as the USSR (or, in Russian, CCCP). They made a new flag: it was red with a yellow hammer and sickle in the corner.
Their war machines had red stars just as America’s had white stars.
If America was the new Rome, Russia was the new Constantinople. Its roots go back to the Byzantine empire. People are mostly Eastern Orthodox.
The Soviet Union was strong on the outside, but falling apart on the inside. Communism did not work in the long run, at least not for such a big country. In the 1980s, Gorbachev tried to save communism through reform, but it was too little too late.
In 1988 they pulled their troops out of Afghanistan, which they were never able to bring under its rule.
In 1989 they lost their control over eastern Europe and the Berlin Wall fell.
In 1991 the communists themselves fell from power. The countries that were part of the Soviet empire broke free. People in the West could not believe their eyes. It had seemed like the Soviet Union was going to be their enemy for years and years.
In the 1800s the empire was ruled by the tsar. Most Russians worked the land and the country was poor. It was the communists who brought in industry.
In the 1700s Russians settled Siberia. Go east, young man. Peter the Great began to bring in Western ways.
Russians were once ruled by Mongols and Turks: the Golden Horde, Tartary and all that.
See also:
Abagond 
Something is happening to this amazing and (for me) somewhat mysterious country.
A new world is approaching or already here and (fast?) growing up. The new world is Asia and Russia a firm part of the rise of Asian power.
————————————————————————————————–
(currently The West [E.U. and U.S. were imposing sanctions against The Bear)
Technologies for resource extraction like shale oil are being withheld. One can scarcely imagine that industrial policy isn’t a top concern for the Russian state. It surprises me that the news is so often riddled with stories of corporate spying and technology theft by China, one would think Russia would be doing the very same sorts of things, simply because their relationship with one of the leading technological nations –the U.S– is always tenuous.
China seems to steal and spy with impunity (I’ve no idea how paranoid or not the news reports are, I pay cursory attention to those types of reports but may start paying more attention now*). I wonder how significant technology transfer between Russia and China is. Technology transfers from China to Russia would ease the effects of future technology curtailment by the West against Russia. A slow trend, I suppose, but the race does not always go to the fastest.
*Why now?
A historic (it seems so, anyway) meeting took place between the BRICS (Brazil,Russia,India,China,South Africa) nations this month, in the last few days, actually. It’s really astonishing. They have agreed to set up a development banking fund for themselves (read: “fuck you World Bank and IMF”) and a bank of local (meaning contributions from each BRICS member) currencies to facilitate trade. Specifically to facilitate trade in their own currencies and not in the U.S. dollar. <—-That, right there, is a big, big deal, like I said astonishing. Imagine, just as the E.U. is coming to it’s end (it seems) a new economic center is coming into being (it seems).
Prior to the Iraq War (meaning prior to 2003) I had read that Saddam Hussein and a few other Middle East leaders were pushing/planning to get oil repriced in Euros. Washington does not like these sorts of projects to remodel aspects of the global financial system. You simply can’t take on projects like that as a weak military power and not expect Washington to kick your ass if they see that you’re serious about you’re little remodeling ideas. Well, we all know, Iraq ended up being invaded on a pretext of U.S. & British lies and the U.S. order remained intact, thank you very much! But now! Oh my! Washington can not just kick Asia’s ass or Russia’s ass or China’s ass. I could never take seriously the, before, the reports of long term U.S, decline but now for the first time, I think such prognostications have a concreteness to them of far more than just wishful thinking on the part of those who have long resented and fought against U.S. imperialism and hegemony.
Re: those banks I spoke of
I included no links in my post, I was concerned with losing my text. Those who are interested can easily search the recent news stories. I wonder if you’ll find them as fascinating and eye opening as I did.
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Naturally, the rise of a very dominant China is a concern for everyone, it’s partners included. Russia wants prosperity and dominance. China wants prosperity and dominance. How is that dynamic going to unfold?
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An excellent piece by the New York Times on the implicit conflicts between the public and private sectors in the E.U. and the U.S., with regard to the rolling out of sanctions against Russia, over the Ukraine conflict.
Le Monde Diplomatique eats up Russia/West conflict (particularly where the energy sector is concerned) and I’m almost certain that in next months issue, they’ll cover what is currently playing out.
For now though, NYT:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/31/business/energy-environment/energy-companies-rethinking-russia-after-new-sanctions.html?_r=1
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A controlled experiment with two cases being run in parallel. Geopolitical pairings of conflict and U.S. responses in case A and case B do come along from time to time:
At this date Israel (a U.S. client state) had been attacking the Gaza Strip killing civilians in the scores. Responses from Washington were soft words to placate the international community.
At this date the conflict in the Ukraine is some weeks old, at this point. Response from the U.S.: tough talk and (tough?) sanctions to go with the talk. And efforts to diplomatically isolate Russia.
Yes, the U.S., defender of freedom and human rights the world over, always!
Nobel Peace Prize Winner Barack Obama was President of the U.S. at the time.
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Also of interest would be to observe how both situations are covered in American media.
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ooh. Some months old, that is. (The Russian intervention in Ukraine.)
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Re: Pricing out of Petrodollars
Above I said : Prior to the Iraq War (meaning prior to 2003) I had read that Saddam Hussein and a few other Middle East leaders were pushing/planning to get oil repriced in Euros.
I was recalling from memory. Actually, Iraq did go through with the switch. It happened, though, after they were already under sanctions and Washington was planning for war anyway, in secret. Recall the Oil-for-food program, Saddam made the switch at that time. Iran had plans about repricing their oil too, and of course they are a hated enemy of Washington’s, surprise, surprise.
Since Saddam was so adamant about making the pricing switch, he must have thought that European diplomatic support would hold Washington back from invading. Remembering back I thought to myself, ‘Was he stupid?’ But then recalling more deeply, there was all that stupid frat boy talk from Bush about “Old Europe” and “New Europe” –bloody rubbish! There was
European and UN diplomatic effort to hold back a war bent Washington, which the US had to break. And break it they did when Colin Powell was sent to tell the great lie about WMD.
I believe Hugo Chavez had also considered repricing Venezuela’s oil away from the Dollar and into the Euro; he too was a hated enemy of Washington’s. The repricing of oil out of petrodollars has been a ‘thing’ for well over a decade now.
http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1095057.html
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Kanwal Sibal former Indian Foreign Secretary in an interview with RT, simply excellent.
Topics:
• misguided efforts to weaken Russia
leading to increased power for China.
• continued Cold War mentality in the U.S. and the West
• U.S. global finance as a cause of global economic instability
• U.S. intransigence to acknowledge the New World Order that is forming.
• Russia’s risk of being swamped by China if isolated from The West.
• and more…
(http://youtu.be/pfB8Fbn-TEE)
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A dispatch from the continuing (for the moment) sanction stare down between Russia and the E.U. Here, Russia is a dagger, pointed at Europe by way of Greece. Total exports from Greece to the Bear are small in percentage terms but Greece is emerging (one hopes) from it’s deep, deep recession of roughly 5 years now. Greece’s recovery is obviously important to the Greeks but is also important to the Eurozone technocrats to maintain confidence and strength in the Euro. Economic strangulation or stress on the peripheral European sovereigns would be, it seems to me, an effective way of frightening European policy makers out of the sanction war against Russia. Someone is going to back down at some point, but who?
http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite2_1_11/08/2014_542069
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Good luck charm/Tradition
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/sberbank-offers-free-cats-to-mortgage-buyers/506018.html
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is it ww3 now or what the whole thing jumped past any pretensions of cold war 2
i mean it’s shrewd, the move, if somewhat blunt and unilateral, vis a vis crimea they got a whole sea or something with that one
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“is it ww3 now or what the whole thing jumped past any pretensions of cold war 2”
Go to these sites for a Putin positive view.
(https://thesaker.is/
https://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/
https://www.moonofalabama.org)
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Kind of hard to give Moon of Alabama credence when just yesterday the blog author wrote:
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Theyre shelling the airport
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Sorry, that was earlier; according to the bbc russia has blitzkrieged the entire sovereign country
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Moon of alabama? I think i went there once a long tine ago
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Did you fail to notice that they’ve been ‘predicting’ said invasion, the US government, that is, for several months now? Putin was quite clear about his aim, no NATO missiles in Ukraine. No NATO beyond its 1997 borders and a neutral Ukraine, anything short of that would be viewed as an aggressive posture. Putin has been making that point since a speech he made in 2007. NATO grew like a cancer in the last 23 years.
Here are its members, along with the year they joined:
12 original members (1949)
Belgium (1949)
Canada (1949)
Denmark (1949)
France (1949)
Iceland (1949)
Italy (1949)
Luxembourg (1949)
Netherlands (1949)
Norway (1949)
Portugal (1949)
United Kingdom (1949)
United States (1949)
2 added in 1952
Turkey (1952)
Greece (1952)
1 added in 1955
Germany (1955)
1 added in 1982
Spain (1982)
3 added in 1999
Czech Republic (1999)
Hungary (1999)
Poland (1999)
7 added in 2004
Bulgaria (2004)
Estonia (2004)
Latvia (2004)
Lithuania (2004)
Romania (2004)
Slovakia (2004)
Slovenia (2004)
2 added in 2009
Albania (2009)
Croatia (2009)
1 added in 2017
Montenegro (2017)
1 added in 2020
North Macedonia (2020)
Before he sent in the troops he sent his diplomats with clear queries to all the foreign ministries of Europe and the US, the replies were lectures about how Ukraine and NATO were ‘free’ to do as they pleased regardless of the consequences for Russia’s security. Having been invaded by Hitler, Napoleon and others Russia decided to throw the first punch this time.
If you’re going to question Moon of Alabama’s credibility you must also question the credibility of the president of Ukraine since he was saying the same thing, no Russian invasion, only a few days ago. The US has zero credibility if one recalls Bay of Tonkin, Powell’s washing powder, etc.
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“Moon of alabama? I think i went there once a long tine ago” And did you find the next whisky bar? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-5ata4jDyk&list=RDx-5ata4jDyk&start_radio=1&rv=x-5ata4jDyk&t=20)
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I’d much rather be a Ukrainian (invaded by the culturally, ethnically, religiously, linguistically, and genetically similar Russians) than a Western European (invaded by hordes of Africans, Sikhs, and followers of the false prophet “M”).
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I’m sorry for the Ukrainian people that is enduring this dangerous and indeed deadly situation. I only hope that whatever follows in the next days or months, do not carries with it many casualties.
Ukraine is paying the price of being a “frontier state” in this uncompromising duel between the two empires remnants of the Cold War. The USA empire (aka NATO) has slowly extended its area of influence to close to the Russian borders and it would be very naive to believe that the “Bear” forcefully would not react at some point. It’s a replaying of the Cuban Missiles Crisis, of the early 60’s, with the roles reversed, being now Russia paranoid of USA moves close to it.
This case illustrates poignantly what was said in a discussion, years ago, here at this blog, about the nature of empires and their tendency to engage in Games of Empires. See, https://abagond.wordpress.com/2015/11/27/game-of-empires/ and my particular take, at that time, about the USA vs. Russia rivalry, https://abagond.wordpress.com/2015/11/27/game-of-empires/#comment-301785 .
P.S.:
In the “world periphery” aka Third World we know this stuff from many examples, where out of nothing “civil wars” are planted and good possibilities of a society to grow rapidly are dashed. Remember Ethiopia, which recent “civil war” originated exactly when the country appeared to become, in no time, an African success story. China has been helping the country mightily in the modernization of the infrastructure and … suddenly a new war began! I suspect that “some empire” was not happy with the growing influence of China in Africa and … .
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“The Soviet Union was strong on the outside, but falling apart on the inside. Communism did not work in the long run, at least not for such a big country. In the 1980s, Gorbachev tried to save communism through reform, but it was too little too late.”
15 years later, the most powerful economy in the world is the PRC, run by communists, the irony.
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“Did you fail to notice that they’ve been ‘predicting’ said invasion, the US government, that is, for several months now?”
You think it happened overnight? No prior planning and coordination?
“Having been invaded by Hitler, Napoleon and others Russia decided to throw the first punch this time.”
And Russia has invaded other countries in the past as well.
Also, throw the first punch?? Who was preparing an imminent invasion of Russia?
“If you’re going to question Moon of Alabama’s credibility you must also question the credibility of the president of Ukraine since he was saying the same thing, no Russian invasion, only a few days ago.”
There’s a big difference between saying “The Russians haven’t invaded as of yet” and denying that any such invasion is in the offing even as the troops amass at the border.
“The US has zero credibility if one recalls Bay of Tonkin, Powell’s washing powder, etc.”
True. And Putin is also a liar and a warmonger.
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“You think it happened overnight? No prior planning and coordination?”
Silly, the planning and coordination started as far back as 2007 when the ‘West’ told Putin they didn’t give a damn about his security concerns. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind I say.
“And Russia has invaded other countries in the past as well.”
True, but Putin’s remit is to safeguard Russia from such action, you know, just like any other nation that enjoys national sovereignty.
“There’s a big difference between saying “The Russians haven’t invaded as of yet” and denying that any such invasion is in the offing even as the troops amass at the border.”
Oh, please, spare me your verbal “trickerations”. They both ‘predicted’ that invasion was farfetched at the time they commented.
“True. And Putin is also a liar and a warmonger.”
That’s what it takes to be a Prince. Brush up on your reading of Machiavelli. Let me know when you found a ‘saint’ who’s a head of state.
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“Silly, the planning and coordination started as far back as 2007 when the ‘West’ told Putin they didn’t give a damn about his security concerns. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind I say.”
What exactly was stopping Putin from creating an organization more appealing than NATO to those Central and Eastern European nations?
“True, but Putin’s remit is to safeguard Russia from such action”
I ask again, who was preparing an imminent invasion of Russia?
“you know, just like any other nation that enjoys national sovereignty.”
Is Ukraine a sovereign nation?
“Oh, please, spare me your verbal “trickerations”. They both ‘predicted’ that invasion was farfetched at the time they commented.”
Show me the quote from “only a few days ago” where Ukraine’s president said the invasion was far-fetched.
“That’s what it takes to be a Prince. Brush up on your reading of Machiavelli.”
No surprise that you’re kissing Putin’s boot. You’ve shown many times before your scorn for average people, your callousness about their sufferings, and your admiration for those “Princes” who play with their lives like pawns on a chessboard.
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@ gro jo
The Ukrainian war is not just about Russian security concerns.
In 2014, Glen Ford pointed out how oil, gas and economics are tied into NATO’s aggressive moves to Russian borders since the fall of the Soviet Union.
https://www.blackagendareport.com/glen-ford-us-prepares-gas-russia-submission-march-20-2014
If a consortium of foreign countries were about to add Mexico or Canada to their group, the US government would be having a serious sh!t fit right now. (Excuse my French!)
The US military machine has attacked other nations for far less.
US warmongers are also extremely angry about Russia turning the tide in Syria.
For the record, Moon of Alabama is a highly credible source. It has been a perceptive observer of empire for over a decade.
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Afrofem, everything you point out falls under security concern, without sovereignty you are forced to take orders from Wall Street because the Pentagon can make you ‘like’ it. That was true for Iraq and Libya two nations with high living standards until the ‘West’ got its paws on them with the same brutality Putin is showing Ukraine.
“No surprise that you’re kissing Putin’s boot. You’ve shown many times before your scorn for average people, your callousness about their sufferings, and your admiration for those “Princes” who play with their lives like pawns on a chessboard.”
Get off your high horse before you get a nosebleed. I don’t do fake ‘morality’. Putin endured the arrogance of the ‘West’ for over a decade, being a Prince, he saw thru the bs of other Princes such as Biden and company. I see that you have nothing to say about his démarche prior to going ‘kinetic’, no doubt due to the fact that you bought the bs that Russia is just a gas station with nuclear weapons. If noting that the ‘West’ is aggressive is kissing Putin’s boot, so be it.
“What exactly was stopping Putin from creating an organization more appealing than NATO to those Central and Eastern European nations?”
Good question. Permit me to give you a hint or two.
1) The ideological seduction of the Soviet nomenklatura with the ‘West’. Prior to
2007 Putin wanted to join NATO but wolves don’t let sheep join the pack. It
took him a while to get the point.
2) The ‘West’ loves Russia as much as they ‘love’ China, they want to see them broken into as many pieces as possible, hence all the bs about Chechens and Uighurs being ‘oppressed’.
3) Putin was no Boris Yeltsin, he put an end to the stealing of Russian natural resources by Russian compradors and their western buddies. If anybody was going to get rich from these resources it was going to be people he controlled.
As for Ukraine’s sovereignty you need to explain how you can make that claim when Victoria Nuland, Biden, Biden’s son and sundry Americans wielded such great power over that nation.
“Show me the quote from “only a few days ago” where Ukraine’s president said the invasion was far-fetched.”
Given your Google-ing skills, I’m confident you can find that info on your own. Try looking for his quotes about not scaring investors off. He was wrong.
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@ munubantu
“Remember Ethiopia, which recent “civil war” originated exactly when the country appeared to become, in no time, an African success story.
China has been helping the country mightily in the modernization of the infrastructure and … suddenly a new war began! I suspect that “some empire” was not happy with the growing influence of China in Africa and … .”
“Some empire” was not only unhappy with the growing influence of China in Africa, that empire was (and is) extremely unhappy with three African states asserting their sovereignty and forming a regional alliance. Namely the states of Ethiopia, Eritrea and Somalia.
The empire’s real target is Eritrea. According to Eritrean American doctor and activist Simon Tesfamariam, co-founder of the #NoMore Movement to end neocolonialism in Africa:
https://www.blackagendareport.com/eritrea-and-tripartite-alliance-horn-africa
What disturbs me most about the planting of phony “civil wars …where good possibilities of a society to grow rapidly are dashed”, is how American, British and French officials and pundits will cluck about “bad governance” in Africa when a country is on the ropes.
They never acknowledge how their own governments planted the so-called “civil wars” or how their neo-empires benefit from the chaos unleashed by their manipulation of events in Africa.
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Lol @grojo your geopolitical statistics “statistiques géopolitiques” read like crime stats and/or will he share the same fate as she who must not be named, i will say cnn was pretty tough on this scenario this morning ( i hope we get enough detail to make a new wargame, it,s like squad leader with the polish mounted troops against the wermacht in 39), but the spin rotated massively hence.
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No gro jo we went to the three corners place and watched a meteor one time? I dont think i would drink in alabama it got me in enough trouble in … Other southern jurisdictions. Snarky!
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@ grojo yes western msm media particularly sourced from the uk and us, stated intelligence predicted an invasion, at first it was donestk and luhansk? Then they did the whole village it was right apparently unless you got something else to bring to the table?
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“Paul Kruger
I’d much rather be a Ukrainian (invaded by the culturally, ethnically, religiously, linguistically, and genetically similar Russians) than a Western European (invaded by hordes of Africans, Sikhs, and followers of the false prophet “M”).”
Lol, more stupidity from the sentimental slob.
” MOSCOW (Reuters) -Ramzan Kadyrov, the leader of Russia’s Chechnya region and an ally of Russian President Vladimir Putin, said on Saturday that Chechen fighters had been deployed to Ukraine and urged Ukrainians to overthrow their government.”
Chechens are definitely white but hardly Christians.
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“@ grojo yes western msm media particularly sourced from the uk and us, stated intelligence predicted an invasion, at first it was donestk and luhansk? Then they did the whole village it was right apparently unless you got something else to bring to the table?”
Do you know who else predicted an invasion? V. Putin, so it didn’t require much intelligence to see what would happen after he was blown off by the ‘West’.
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“Get off your high horse before you get a nosebleed. I don’t do fake ‘morality’.”
I know, you’re all about Might Equals Right. No such thing as morality, just cold pragmatism. Well, my cold pragmatism is that humanity isn’t going to survive this century if we don’t move beyond the Might Equals Right mindset awful damn fast. We’re facing the worst pandemic in at least a century, with a looming environmental crisis surpassing anything we’ve seen in millennia, and all our mighty “Princes” want to do is posture and strut and wave their swords.
“being a Prince, he saw thru the bs of other Princes such as Biden and company”
F×ck the Princes, each and every one of them. And f×ck the idea that a 500-year-old book provides any justification for their f×ckery.
“I see that you have nothing to say about his démarche prior to going ‘kinetic’”
What I know about his démarche is that the US government responded with willingness to sit down and negotiate, including this statement:
“no doubt due to the fact that you bought the bs that Russia is just a gas station with nuclear weapons”
I have never once thought that. It’s not only an insult to Russia, but a major underestimation of Russia’s global standing, power, and influence.
“Prior to 2007 Putin wanted to join NATO but wolves don’t let sheep join the pack. It
took him a while to get the point.”
All I’m finding online is that Putin was waiting for Russia to be invited to join NATO, and when he found out that isn’t how things work, he took offense and didn’t bother to apply for membership. If you can direct me to differing accounts of these events, I will look at them.
“The ‘West’ loves Russia as much as they ‘love’ China, they want to see them broken into as many pieces as possible”
I’m sure Russia and China want to see the same happen to “The West.” It’s all short-sighted opportunism that results in needless suffering and death. F×ck the Princes.
“Putin was no Boris Yeltsin, he put an end to the stealing of Russian natural resources by Russian compradors and their western buddies.”
I thought at the time and I still think now that the USA made a horrendous mistake after the Soviet Union fell by encouraging the “free market” looting of Russian natural resources.
“If anybody was going to get rich from these resources it was going to be people he controlled.”
How does that “hint” relate to my question of “What exactly was stopping Putin from creating an organization more appealing than NATO to those Central and Eastern European nations?” Because I’m not seeing the connection.
“As for Ukraine’s sovereignty you need to explain how you can make that claim when Victoria Nuland, Biden, Biden’s son and sundry Americans wielded such great power over that nation.”
Ukraine meets the UN definition of sovereign nation and has been recognized as such for over 30 years. If you’re going to argue that outside influences from larger and more powerful countries nullify sovereignty, are there actually any sovereign nations besides Russia, China, and the USA?
“Given your Google-ing skills, I’m confident you can find that info on your own. Try looking for his quotes about not scaring investors off. He was wrong.”
Except I’m not finding it. Everything that readily comes up is about investors’ reaction to the current invasion. He’s been saying for close to two weeks that an invasion is imminent, which I consider more than “a few days” ago. To me, that phrase implies less than a week. If you have a link to the quote you’re referring to, please provide it.
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“If you’re going to argue that outside influences from larger and more powerful countries nullify sovereignty, are there actually any sovereign nations besides Russia, China, and the USA?” No. See Melian Dialogue, much older than Machiavelli. “Athenians. For ourselves, we shall not trouble you with specious pretences- either of how we have a right to our empire because we overthrew the Mede, or are now attacking you because of wrong that you have done us- and make a long speech which would not be believed; and in return we hope that you, instead of thinking to influence us by saying that you did not join the Lacedaemonians, although their colonists, or that you have done us no wrong, will aim at what is feasible, holding in view the real sentiments of us both; since you know as well as we do that right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.” If the Ukrainians had taken that very old lesson to heart and opted for Finlandization as Finland did after WWII Russians wouldn’t be redecorating their nation.
“Except I’m not finding it. Everything that readily comes up is about investors’ reaction to the current invasion. He’s been saying for close to two weeks that an invasion is imminent, which I consider more than “a few days” ago. To me, that phrase implies less than a week. If you have a link to the quote you’re referring to, please provide it.”
“President Biden and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky had a back-and-forth in their call this evening about just how “imminent” the threat of a Russian invasion might be, according to three sources briefed on the call.
Why it matters: Biden has said previously that he believes Russian President Vladimir Putin will probably “move in” to Ukraine, and White House press secretary Jen Psaki said Thursday afternoon that “an invasion could come at any time.”
Stay on top of the latest market trends and economic insights with Axios Markets. Subscribe for free
The Ukrainian government, which is worried about the effects of such statements on the economy and public morale, has been contending that the threat of an invasion is real but not any higher than in previous months.”
“How does that “hint” relate to my question of “What exactly was stopping Putin from creating an organization more appealing than NATO to those Central and Eastern European nations?” Because I’m not seeing the connection.”
Shame on you. My point is that Putin is a nationalist with zero interest in other nations unless they pose a threat to Russia’s development. I think he believes that Russia has all the resources to grow on its own. With the melting of the Arctic it will control the major sea route for commerce. Note that Russia and the PRC are not allies but they respect each other and get along, Russia tried to build the same kind of relationship with the USA and Europe, we know how that ended.
“I thought at the time and I still think now that the USA made a horrendous mistake after the Soviet Union fell by encouraging the “free market” looting of Russian natural resources.”
You say ‘mistake’ I say nature of the beast.
“I’m sure Russia and China want to see the same happen to “The West.” It’s all short-sighted opportunism that results in needless suffering and death. F×ck the Princes.”
Evidence, please.
“All I’m finding online is that Putin was waiting for Russia to be invited to join NATO, and when he found out that isn’t how things work, he took offense and didn’t bother to apply for membership. If you can direct me to differing accounts of these events, I will look at them.”
Wolves don’t let sheep join the pack.
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@gro jo – a small number of Chechens being involved in a mostly Russian Army is vastly preferable to mass replacement migration.
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“No.”
Then humanity is screwed. The USA, Russia, and China are arguably the three most recalcitrant obstructionist nations hindering global efforts to reduce the impact of climate change.
“See Melian Dialogue, much older than Machiavelli.”
You have to be kidding. Part of my objection to The Prince is that it’s too old to have relevance — at least in any beneficial manner — to the dilemmas facing the modern world, and you retort with a quote over 2,400 years old?? A fictionalized dramatization of a negotiation that may or may not have taken place, by someone who was not an eyewitness? And what good did this barbaric massacre do for the Athenians? It was condemned throughout Greece and likely contributed to the rebellions that hastened Athens’ downfall.
“If the Ukrainians had taken that very old lesson to heart and opted for Finlandization as Finland did after WWII Russians wouldn’t be redecorating their nation.”
The “see what you made me do” defense beloved by domestic abusers everywhere. You’ve yet to explain to me why Putin chose not to sit down at the negotiation table when the other parties were willing to do so.
Your source about Zelensky is from here:
https://news.yahoo.com/zelensky-questions-u-warnings-imminent-012235227.html
and is dated January 27, almost a month ago. Furthermore, the article said his position was that “the threat of an invasion is real but not any higher than in previous months.”
This doesn’t match your claims:
“you must also question the credibility of the president of Ukraine since he was saying the same thing, no Russian invasion, only a few days ago.”
&
“both ‘predicted’ that invasion was farfetched at the time they commented.”
“only a few days ago” =/= January
“real” =/= “far-fetched”
“My point is that Putin is a nationalist with zero interest in other nations unless they pose a threat to Russia’s development.”
Then why did he want to join NATO? He was interested at one time. Are you saying that his being a nationalist prevented him from seeing how a comparable pact among the Eastern European nations would benefit Russia?
“I think he believes that Russia has all the resources to grow on its own.”
But it isn’t about resources, is it? This is about Russia’s military buffer zone from “the West.” So why didn’t Putin offer a better deal to entice those Eastern European nations to an alternative NATO-like organization?
“With the melting of the Arctic it will control the major sea route for commerce.”
🙄
“Russia tried to build the same kind of relationship with the USA and Europe, we know how that ended.”
He never formally applied for NATO membership.
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You say ‘mistake’ I say nature of the beast.
According to a 2016 LA Times opinion piece, promises were make and promises were broken by the Usual Suspects.
Joshua R. Itzkowitz Shifrinson detailed how in 1990, the US under Sec. of State James Baker promised Russia that NATO would not expand into Eastern Europe beyond (then newly unified) Germany. Shifrinson notes:
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-shifrinson-russia-us-nato-deal–20160530-snap-story.html
The US left the door wide open and strode through Eastern Europe collecting countries as they moved closer and closer to Russian borders.
The promises the US made to Russia in 1990 are reminiscent of the treaties made to Native Americans “from sea to shining sea”. The treaties weren’t worth the paper they were written on and were often broken in a matter of a few years.
The nature of the beast.
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Correction: the word “beasts” is not a part of the original quote and should be bracketed.
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Who cares if the US breaks promises to a Stone Age tribal people? Russians are mostly European, and worthy of respect because of that, but they have had a hugely negative impact on Whites. 20 million Whites (mostly Germans, also some Poles and others) were expelled from their homelands on Stalin’s orders.
If it was okay to do that, it’s okay to expel migrant populations from Europe, which isn’t even their homeland.
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Thank you Afrofem.
Solitaire, I love your straw man of a question: “So why didn’t Putin offer a better deal to entice those Eastern European nations to an alternative NATO-like organization?”
Isn’t it obvious to you? Putin’s Russia was just the biggest part of the Soviet Union in full disintegration mode, it was necessary to stop the disintegration caused by “Russian compradors and their western buddies.” along with the hypnotic pull of the ‘West’ on the Soviet nomenklatura.
As a member in good standing of same Putin was just as desirous as the rest to ‘westernize’.
As Afrofem demonstrates, the ‘West’s’ attitude was the same toward Russia as it was toward many other peoples they consider ‘inferior’. Putin’s outrage stems from Russia getting its “snow nigg*r” wake up call, to paraphrase the late, great Paul mooney. Now I hope you’ll stop beating that dead horse.
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““With the melting of the Arctic it will control the major sea route for commerce.”
🙄”
Maybe this video will clear up your confusion: ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvy9usF7ohE)
The USA is hellbent on stopping Russia and China because if they can make a partner of Germany, it’s game over for US hegemony.
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@ Gro Jo
I’m not confused. That icon was me rolling my eyes at what appeared to be an effort to get my goat by downplaying the crisis in the Arctic. Did you think the eye-rolling meant I didn’t believe Russia could command the sea route? Please. I watched your video and it told me nothing I didn’t already know. Any short-term temporary benefits from the loss of Arctic ice will in time be dwarfed by the permanent catastrophic changes the thaw will trigger. The “Princes” are all fiddling while Rome burns. I generally don’t talk about this subject on this blog, but you accused me of “fake” morality so I corrected your misunderstanding of my mindset. We are obviously talking past each other, so I’m done with this discussion if you are.
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“We are obviously talking past each other, so I’m done with this discussion if you are.”
No problemo.
” Any short-term temporary benefits from the loss of Arctic ice will in time be dwarfed by the permanent catastrophic changes the thaw will trigger.”
To quote J.M. Keynes “In the long run we are all dead.”
Where was your moral outrage, “F×ck the Princes”, when V. Nuland was busy auditioning Ukrainians for prime minister after using ultra nationalist gangs, Bandera, to overthrow a government not to the liking of the USA eight years ago?
How many Ukrainian innocent lives were cut short by such action? It looks like you get “triggered” only when foreign Princes act like princes.
I have and will remain courteous despite your nasty insinuation that I’m morally bankrupt.
“No surprise that you’re kissing Putin’s boot. You’ve shown many times before your scorn for average people, your callousness about their sufferings, and your admiration for those “Princes” who play with their lives like pawns on a chessboard.”
Next time try not to live up to sexist stereotypes about women. Be well.
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@ Gro Jo
“No problemo.”
You don’t appear to be done. That reply went well beyond trying to get in the last word.
“To quote J.M. Keynes ‘In the long run we are all dead.'”
Most of the frequent contributors here are old enough that we’re not going to be around for the worst of global climate change. My concern is not for myself.
“Where was your moral outrage, ‘F×ck the Princes’, when V. Nuland was busy auditioning Ukrainians for prime minister after using ultra nationalist gangs, Bandera, to overthrow a government not to the liking of the USA eight years ago?
How many Ukrainian innocent lives were cut short by such action? It looks like you get ‘triggered’ only when foreign Princes act like princes.”
I wasn’t commenting here eight years ago. I’ve been opposed to every military action the USA has taken in my lifetime.
“I have and will remain courteous despite your nasty insinuation that I’m morally bankrupt.”
Eh, I’m not the only commenter who’s made that observation in the last couple years. And I suppose this is your idea of courteous:
“Next time try not to live up to sexist stereotypes about women.”
Like I said above, you don’t appear to be done yet. Whatever.
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