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This is the thread where you can never be off topic! Well, almost never. The rest of the Comment Policy applies, though.

Please put YouTube links in parentheses like so:

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvlTG4yVByY)

Scroll down a bit to see the links to the archived open threads.

1,059 Responses

  1. A new Open Thread!!

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  2. @ Kiwi

    “I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts on Asians vs. Jews in entertainment, particularly in regards to both groups’ relationship with whiteness.”

    In terms of mainstream Hollywood fare, I think Asian Americans will find themselves in pretty much the same position as Blacks.

    Jews, like Humphrey Bogart and William Shatner, are White enough to play “all American” characters. Asians and Blacks, unless they can be seen as pretty much White (like Keanu Reeves), will mostly be stuck playing Asians and Blacks. And most of those characters will be sidekicks and stereotypes written by White screenwriters. Asians will have much better luck behind the camera as film directors and so on.

    The trouble is that Whites, unlike all other Americans, are not used to identifying with a lead character of another race. Partly this is cultural conditioning as the “target demographic” that is constantly catered to, partly this is because of dehumanizing stereotypes they have about other races. For example, Asian men are stereotyped as perpetual foreigners and as less masculine. That makes it hard for them to play a crossover lead in a serious drama (as opposed to comedy and action films where you do not have to be seen as fully human).

    Recommended reading:
    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/04/20/the-four-kinds-of-humans/

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/06/08/david-carradine/

    Like


  3. This convo is carried over from the previous Open Thread.

    @ Sharina:

    Kiwi & Leigh

    First thank you leigh for the suggestions. I am pretty big on Asian music. Right now I have been into g-dragon and 2ne1.

    I will admit I was really shocked to see so many Asian entertainers on youtube. After listening to the media and society tell you how Asians are, it is really good to see how they really are. Most if not all of which should have hit it big and taken over the entertainment world a long time ago. Even with today more Asians should be seen on tv than they are. It is hard to deny that them not being white does not play a major role in this.

    You’re more than welcome, Sharina.🙂 Girl, I didn’t know you were into K-pop music. How long have you been into this kind of music? I’ve liked K-pop/hip hop/R&B for fifteen years now way before K-pop started gaining recognition around the world.😎

    Anyway, what ticks me off is that there are plenty of talented Asians and other POC, but you never get to see them simply because they supposedly don’t have that white appeal. It boggles my mind that some white entertainers/singers like Miley Cyrus and Justin Bieber, who can’t sing for sh*t, land major record deals. And here you have gifted POC struggling to get noticed on YouTube in the hopes that they’ll get signed.

    Ok Ok Jeremy “Passion” Manongdo just stole my heart!

    IKR! I love his voice! Since you like Passion, may I also suggest JR Aquino. He’s also quite good.

    (http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHy98AHH4TX3gJ00p1eVFZg)

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  4. Thanks for replying, Abagond.

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  5. @ leigh204

    It boggles my mind that some white entertainers/singers like Miley Cyrus and Justin Bieber, who can’t sing for sh*t, land major record deals.

    Eeeeeeeeeew! Those two are disgusting. Not only do they suck at what they do, they’re racist against Asians and blacks. It goes to show what kind of people they really are deep down. Underneath their pietistic pretenses are just a couple of sad individuals.

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  6. Gross. I just found out that there are couples in Asia who specifically seek out white sperm donors. If that is not white worship, nothing is.

    http://www.city-data.com/forum/asia/1688888-do-many-asian-women-seek-out.html

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  7. ^ What?! That’s nuts. What’s so good about white sperm anyway? (It’s a rhetorical question.) I noticed the OP in that thread mentioned her son living in Singapore. I have heard some Singaporean women seek white men or angmohs as they are termed so they can have that Eurasian baby. It seems Eurasian looks are coveted over there, but not just there. It also happens in part of SE Asia like Thailand and the Philippines. I didn’t bother to read the entire thread, it was too disturbing.

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  8. @Legion

    what “should” my hypothetical blog be about?

    I don’t know, seems like you are really into Chomsky. Maybe you can imagine what kind of blog his disciple would have and consider that.

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  9. The trouble is that Whites, unlike all other Americans, are not used to identifying with a lead character of another race.

    But can they identify with a lead character of another race if it is actually played by a white person?

    I am thinking of all the popular yellowface performances with lead characters that were Asian, but played by white actors (thinking of movies like “Dragonseed”).
    We don’t even have them any more (well, not much).

    We still have “redface” roles.

    If there is a lead Asian role, it it played by a NON-American actor (e.g., Jacky Chan).

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  10. Plug in for Miles Ahead, the Miles Davis not-necessarily-a-biopic feature film shooting this month! I am a filmmaker and I’ve been reading Abagond since 2010. I’m not sure if he knows about it or not but there is an Indigogo campaign to support the film and I’m sending links out everywhere to get the word out! Hopefully, the great blogger and other bloggers here will help spread the word.
    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/join-miles-ahead-a-don-cheadle-film

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  11. leigh204

    I have not been into k-pop as long as I have j-pop (14 year). I have only been in to k-pop for about 2 years now. I found them on youtube and never turned back. I listen to it in my car in hopes it will gain some type of recognition here.

    That is what gets me. You have Asians on youtube making better quality music and performing of better quality and none of them are getting serious breaks in the way that people like Miley Cyrus and Justin Bieber.

    Like


  12. I know the codes for italic and bold. How do you code for quoted material? Sorry, I guess I just don’t get out much.

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  13. @ Richard_III:

    In the past, I’ve tried demonstrating how to quote on here, but I’m not exactly HTML savvy so it never works out for me. LOL. Here’s how to do it, though. Hope it works out for you.🙂

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  14. @ Sharina:

    leigh204

    I have not been into k-pop as long as I have j-pop (14 year). I have only been in to k-pop for about 2 years now. I found them on youtube and never turned back. I listen to it in my car in hopes it will gain some type of recognition here.

    I play K-pop music all the time, and I have people telling me it sounds weird. I don’t get it. If they actually took the time to listen, they’d learn that a lot of it sounds similar, or at least I happen to think so, to American pop music. Just in a different language. *shrugs*

    That is what gets me. You have Asians on youtube making better quality music and performing of better quality and none of them are getting serious breaks in the way that people like Miley Cyrus and Justin Bieber.

    Exactly. Speaking of Justin Bieber, the backup singers he used to tour with him were Filipino and they sang CIRCLES around him.

    Here’s a version of Justin Bieber’s “Baby” by Legaci with Cathy Nguyen and Traphik.

    (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUAPksxTDPQ)

    And please check out this other Filipina singer who sang the same song, but even better because she did rapper Ludacris’ part at the end. She killed it, Sharina!

    (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdEd9DJpjMo)

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  15. @leigh204
    THANK YOU.

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  16. @ Richard_III:

    You’re welcome.🙂

    Like


  17. It’s time for some nineties madness 🙂

    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JC_4l7bFKJk)

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  18. @King:

    Omigosh! Talk about bringing it alllll back! Who can forget the House Party movies with Kid ‘n Play? Dang, and who can forget Kid’s super hi-top fade. lol! Ahh, good times!😀

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  19. Haha! Good times.🙂

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  20. @ Peanut:

    leigh your avatar is so pretty

    Thank you!🙂 It’s a picture of me with my sister except I cropped her out. LOL! I don’t usually wear make-up or a lot of it, and for my birthday last year, my sister wanted me to have a make-over at the MAC counter. I felt so pretty afterwards so she had her husband take a picture of us.

    are you married now btw leigh?

    Yes, I married my beloved a few months ago. Cheesy, I know. I’m just really happy these days.😀

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  21. The genocidal and racist origins of American Eugenics which inspired the Nazis, and is still going on in the United States today.

    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO5XFGK231w)

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  22. Yay! I new thread. I had to share this fun/sweet new webseries, of course whatever Issa Rae has her hands in turns to pure gold. Enjoy😀

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  23. @ Peanut

    A lot of people also don’t know about Hitler’s sequel to “Mein Kampf”, “Zweites Buch“, in which he reversed his critical stance on America to one of admiration for its racist attitudes and policies towards nonwhites, including segregation and eugenics. Interestingly, as the book was written before the Third Enlargement of American Whiteness, Hitler was also fond of America’s exclusion of Eastern Europeans and Southern Europeans, whom he looked down upon as well.

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  24. @ Peanut:

    congratulations leigh! and good for you for coming back. I hope that I’ll be able to come back to abagond’s when/IF i ever get married

    Thanks so much! Even before I married, I wanted to come back earlier, but I faced a personal situation in which two people I cared about had cancer. And they needed me. The saddest thing of all, they both passed away. Cancer is a b*tch. Seeing loved ones like my mom, aunt, and family friend gradually wasting away is something I would never wish on my worst enemy.

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  25. @ Peanut

    Okay. God willing, it will go up Wednesday or Thursday.

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  26. leigh204

    Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you. You kinda opened the door to some different performers and I have been hooked. LOL.

    As to K-pop, yes it does sound the same (I would say better). I will say that once they make it over here the quality of the music falls apart to me. Wonder girls made it over here and one of their songs was on the radio a year or so back. It was just too pop mainstream compared to the music they were making in Korea.

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  27. Elliot Rodger would make a very interesting post and would fit well with this blog.

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  28. This is for those who think the school to prison pipeline, isn’t real for black children. Black children as young as 3 years old!

    http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/politics/2014/07/02/ctn-pkg-sidner-pre-school-to-prison-pipeline.cnn.html

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  29. @ jefe, Eliot Rodger would definitely make an interesting post.
    We were talking about him before, and I didn’t get round to answering you properly.

    What we (you, Kiwi, munu, me, King) brought out in our previous discussion might just be the tip of the iceberg.

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  30. Suspension for 3-yr olds is ridiculous.

    But the report implied that it wasn’t just black kids suspended (although their numbers are disproportionately high at least compared to whites).

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  31. @Bulanik,

    It is creepy for me, because I think I can understand what might have been going through his head.

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  32. @ jefe

    I certainly understood what he was thinking. Out of all the people on this blog, I’m afraid I knew the best what he was thinking. It’s a very dark and scary place.

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  33. @ Jefe: You know what — I don’t think you’re alone in that.

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  34. His rage was something that reminded me of my brother’s when he was younger…

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  35. For some reason, I believe Randy and biff are not the only white male commenters on this blog married to Asian women. I’ve had a suspicion for a while now that Da Jokah/Churchs Chicken/duckduckgoofs is also married to an Asian. After rereading some of his comments, it makes a lot more sense, especially in light of his race realism. I’d like to think I’m just paranoid, but I don’t think I’m wrong. Another suspect commenter is Riverside_Rob, but I’m less sure about him.

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  36. @Kiwi,
    Yet you seem not to empathize with what your Aunt’s sons’ experience. Did you understand why Rodger felt compelled to kill his own brother (as an unfortunate, but necessary act)?

    Did you get bullied a lot when you were pre-teen and teenager?

    Anyhow, I can see some of those commenters sowing the seeds of adolescent rage.in their kids. I wish they would consider listening more than just lecturing.

    I think DJ had his own unresolved rage from his adolescent past. That is why he was attracted here.

    @Bulanik,
    I think my brother had that rage. Well, I guess I did too, So did my father. But we each found our (very different) ways to adjust to it, and it tore me and my brother apart.
    If you recall the exchange we had about two years ago discussing something that Abagond said that made us feel uncomfortable (when he asked us to write a guest post)? Facing that that daily rain of treatment and attitude that can drive someone nuts.

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  37. @ jefe

    I can empathize with internalized racism and the negative feelings that arise from being an Asian male because I’ve been there myself but I don’t empathize with killing, narcissism, or not snapping out of it once one knows better. Despite being an Asian male, Elliot Rodger still murdered and mutilated three other Asian men. In light of half white/half Asian people being unkind towards me due to my race, how am I supposed to empathize with that behavior? There are lines that I as a person would never cross, regardless of race.

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  38. @ Jefe

    Sure, I remember that conversation and how “uncomfortable” it was.
    How could we forget?
    And, facing that daily rain (sometimes so complex, words won’t do) can’t be forgotten either, can it?

    @ Kiwi, that difference you describe perfectly understandable, and I get what you mean.

    There’s no way the great majority of people could emphasize with Eliot Rodger’s murderous behaviour.

    Attacking people and feeling entitled that he could do that — and kill — were hardly the actions of someone in his right mind.
    Even so, the particular factors that tormented him are felt by many who would not and could not even conceive of causing any harm to others.

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  39. Abagond: I don’t know if you are interested but there is a show on WE channel called “The Divide” you might be interested. It is about the “Innocence Project. And “racism” is plays a huge part in this drama. I think it is inspired by a true story.

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  40. Abagond: “The Divide” airs tonight.

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  41. Abagond: The Divide airs tonight @9pm. Nia Long is in it, if you are interested.

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  42. @Kiwi,

    In light of half white/half Asian people being unkind towards me due to my race, how am I supposed to empathize with that behavior?

    Exactly. That is why I am trying to understand how you see where he is coming from. Do you understand why he felt compelled to kill a few young Chinese-American men that he knew personally (why he resented full-blooded Chinese in particular) and white women, as well as contemplating killing his own English-Morroccan brother? You said that you have “been there”.

    I really think I can “empathize” with that feeling (although of course, I would never actually contemplate it). I cannot “sympathize” with it. I think any mental health professional that would be in a position to help him would have to be able to empathize with him to some extent. Maybe that is one reason all that psychological counseling was not doing much good. They didn’t understand what he was going through.

    @Bulanik,
    Yes, it is a daily rain, and I had to find solutions to deal with that.

    People said the same thing about me as a teenager re: (“others tried to be friendly with him, but he rebuffed them or remained aloof”). I was trying to figure out why the other Asian-white kids in my school didn’t get bullied all the time and at the time, I figured out that the other kids didn’t think about their being Asian, as they had white military Dads. They had Anglo surnames and only showed up in public with their white dads.

    I thought Elliot Rodger should be able to escape that treatment as his mother was not around, but I realize that he is the “next generation” and the environment is now somewhat different. When I was a child, interracial dating and marriage was extremely rare. Such couples or families would draw attention or even scorn in public. The only white men / Asian women families you saw were military. But what he have now is serious Asian male basing by Asian women in front of white men (something not as common when I was a child). I suspect that Elliott picked up those cues from early childhood. Then he gets beat up and bullied, but he sees his half-brother escaping the same treatment (of Asian male bashing and white bullying). I can *empathize* with how he hates the world and sees it stacked against him.

    Mine is different from his, but I can see how it built up and what I did to escape it. There are constructive solutions – don’t have to go out on a killing spree.
    I still experienced bullying in the workplace up until I was in my early 30s. I had other problems too – I was a stutterer.

    I went to see psychologists in my late teens and in my 20s. They were all but useless. And I think it is partially because they could not “empathize”. Sometimes, I think I should go out and help the other Elliott Rodgers out there before they cause harm.

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  43. @ jefe

    Bulanik has the right understanding of my posts. I meant that I think I understand Elliot Rodger’s racial sentiments best, not his motivations for committing homicide. I do not know how else to put it without saying it a third time.

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  44. I guess I don’t understand what you mean by “racial sentiments” then, because you then say that you cannot understand (and I am using the word feeling “empathy”, or the “the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.”) for the racial rage that he was experiencing.

    I would say that I can understand (yes, even “empathize” with) the racial sentiments, including the racial rage that he felt for Asian American men, white women, and his half brother. However, I do not sympathize with it at all, and of course I do not empathize with the escalation of the racial rage into motivation for mass homicide.

    So when you say understood his racial sentiments, I thought that would mean you understand why he feels rage towards Asian men, white women, and half-siblings who are better able than he to pass as white (even among his own parents). But in the past, you seemed perplexed that, for example, your male hapa cousins expressed negative sentiments towards you, or you depicted their behavior as some sort of “character flaw” on their part. So I am confused at exactly which aspect of the “racial sentiment” you identify with.

    I am not looking for the “right” understanding of your post, but simply “THE” understanding – just a bit confused.

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  45. @ jefe

    I had severe racial self-hatred issues when I was younger, but I kept my feelings bottled up for the most part, especially since I have a Model Minority family that doesn’t give a damn about or understand racial issues. I usually kept my thoughts to myself and any racial negativity that did come out was self-deprecating, if anything. I pride myself in trying to be logical so killing people is downright irrational to me. What I don’t like is when other people take their self-hatred and externalize it in such a way that it harms others, such as when Asian women openly bash Asian men or when half white/half Asians flaunt their whiteness as if they think they’re better than plain Asians.

    But what he have now is serious Asian male bashing by Asian women in front of white men

    It’s not just in front of white men. I remember reading about an Asian guy talking about a time he was hanging out with a couple of women he knew. One of them was a white friend who happened to date Asian men and the other was an Asian mutual acquaintance who only dated white men. Spontaneously, and right in front of the Asian guy, the Asian female asked the white female, “Why do you like Asian men?”

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  46. @ Sharina:

    leigh204

    Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you. You kinda opened the door to some different performers and I have been hooked. LOL.

    That’s great! What are the names of the different performers if you don’t mind me asking? I probably didn’t hear their music before and I would like to know them. Expand my horizons, if you will.🙂

    As to K-pop, yes it does sound the same (I would say better). I will say that once they make it over here the quality of the music falls apart to me. Wonder girls made it over here and one of their songs was on the radio a year or so back. It was just too pop mainstream compared to the music they were making in Korea.

    It’s sad, but not uncommon for songs coming from another country to lose their “flavor” once it enters the States. It’s just different. Not only did this happen with the Wonder Girls, it was the same with SNSD aka Girls’ Generation with their song, “The Boys”. Here they are when they appeared on David Letterman.

    (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnLAml7Ji9A)

    On a sidenote, I’m pretty sure you’ve heard of PSY of Gangnam Style fame? I rolled my eyes when I read comments from the U.S./Western media that said he was a new singer/rapper from South Korea. He isn’t new. I knew about him for nearly 10 years before Gangnam Style became a mega hit. I found one of his older songs. I hope you like it.

    (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTCH6-lgNK8)

    He also collaborated with female singer/rapper Lexy in 2004. This is one of my favorite songs.

    (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZ1Rgw3-N90)

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  47. @ Kiwi:

    Where did you grow up? I grew up in the middle of Canada. And while the racial demographics have changed for the better over here, I didn’t have an easy time either. I remember two white girls in the fourth grade follow me home because they wanted to teach me a lesson.

    Apparently, they felt I thought too highly of myself because I dared to talk back to them to leave me alone. They shoved, tripped, and knocked me down hoping that I would break down and cry. Even though I was frightened, I didn’t want to give them satisfaction in seeing me cry. I nearly did, though. I screamed why are they doing this to me and I did nothing to them, and amazingly, they left me alone after that.

    In the years before, I was made fun of because I was different (Asian) and different looking (my eyes were constantly derided) by white peers to the point I wanted eyelid surgery, but thankfully, THANKFULLY, I had a strong Asian mother who made me feel my worth was more than just my appearance.

    Anyway, you say Asian women bash Asian men? I don’t doubt that’s true because I have heard SOME Asian women bash Asian men, too, and it’s wrong and hurtful. They want nothing to do with Asian men, but that’s them. Why would anyone want women like that? (Yes, I know, white men.) The truth is most Asian women are dating/marrying Asian men. Goodness. I forgot what I was going to talk about. Please forgive my rambling.

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  48. @ leigh204

    I grew up in the Bay Area, in a neighborhood that underwent white flight as Asians moved in. So the place actually ended up an Asian majority because whites did not want to live around us. Despite whites being the minority there, the racial bigotry I encountered was always by white people. Although most of the other Asians weren’t my ethnicity, I never had problems with them. I think that’s remarkable.

    One day I was out walking with my family and as we passed by, we smiled, waved, and said “hi” to one of our white neighbors, who was out on his lawn. The unshaven, dirty-looking man wore a tank top and was smoking while drinking beer. He contemptuously ignored us and pretended we weren’t there. It didn’t take long, eventually, before he moved his family out along with the rest of the racist white people. My hometown today is less white and less racist. I wonder why.

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  49. @Kiwi,

    or when half white/half Asians flaunt their whiteness as if they think they’re better than plain Asians.

    Yeah, I think this was likely a factor with Elliot Rodger. But I really don’t think they actually believe they are *better* than monoracially identified Asians (regardless of how they appear to behave), IN fact, I think that they likely believe they are inferior to both whites and Asians. Flaunting their half-whiteness in front of Asian men is probably an effort to bolster their psychological self-esteem (ie, a defense mechanism) after constant exposure to the Asian male bashing orchestrated by their parents & relatives, their community and by the popular media.

    I actually believe that half white/half Asians do want to feel more positive self-esteem about who and what they are (which is why they sometimes flaunt), including their Asian side, but there are 2 great obstacles they face:

    – constant Asian bashing by all the people around them (from whites and other non-Asians, the media, and most of the Asians they contact on a regular basis); I think it is particularly difficult for those with white fathers as they might have no Asian men to represent a real figure against what are purely stereotypes).

    – difficulty being accepted by Asian groups, who might not view them as “authentically” Asian or perhaps highly suspect because of their white identity that does not purely reflect internalized racism, but also connections with actual blood relatives.

    The second one is where you might be able to help your half white/Asian cousins, if you felt so inclined (and that is a big *IF*). It takes a lot of strength for two reasons:
    1. They often act nasty to you, trying to show they are somehow “better” (when I think it is actually a disguised feeling of inferiority). It may not be pleasant to take the initiative to engage with them.

    2. You have been battling internalized racism yourself, with little psychological bolstering to combat the bashing you faced for the past couple decades. But as you find your strength, maybe you can learn to share it, esp. with family and friends, and esp. your half white / half Asian cousins.

    They can use a voice from their Asian side or Asian groups to help put in perspective that psychological bashing that they get from everyone else.

    But of course, for the past 2 decades there has been growing Hapa activism and activism for the multiracial American. One of the things they need to work on is not just fighting “tick the box” but also other real psychological and social problems many people face.

    I have more related comments, but I think I will do it later.

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  50. Maybe it is a worthwhile exercise to compare Elliot Rodger to Seung-Hui Cho.

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  51. It feels really weird to say this, but I believe that a lot of Elliot Rodger’s and Seung-Hui Cho’s pent-up anger had to do with internalized racism, the result of a white racist society that denigrates Asian men. A lot also had to do with resentment towards white people, who are socially privileged. Of course, other psychological factors drove them all the way to actually carrying out the killings.

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  52. the holocaust thread is definitely the wrong place to bring it up but that actor whatever his name is, who played saul the lawyer in breaking bad was pretty good in fargo, the tv show. and i appreciate the format that that show and ‘orange is the new black’ follow, sort of an extended story with a set beginning and end, not so much a never-ending thing like most tv shows, or the long-running ‘soap opera’ thing.

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  53. I didn’t realize it when I first arrived, but a big issue that I’ve noticed on this blog is how the topic of internalized racism is handled. I think of its situation as being similar to that of mental disorders. People tend to blame the victim. Rather than showing understanding, it seems that the general consensus is condemnation. I’ve seen this play out multiple times in real life and online. People with mental illnesses such as depression are often told to just “get over it” or “cheer up”. From a medical professional’s perspective, it makes as much sense to tell a diabetic to simply “lower their blood sugar”.

    I think the main reason might be that there is a “threshold of acceptability” for comments. Commenters deny themselves having any such problems in order to win approval from other commenters and not appear as a sellout. But the problem is that every nonwhite has had racial self-hatred issues at some point, with a wide range of variation, both individually and from person to person. Brushing the issue under the carpet instead of confronting it head-on only worsens it.

    Granted, there are lines that cannot be crossed. If a nonwhite consciously and unabashedly condemns their own race or chooses to align themselves with whites, then that is deplorable. That is, if they know exactly what they’re doing and they don’t feel bad about it, that makes them a sellout. But otherwise, people deserve understanding. I can see that others might find it hard to distinguish the two groups, though, as there are in fact overlaps. People have the uncanny ability to hold contradictory thoughts and feelings, so a person may act as a sellout at times and not act as one at others.

    I observed this in my aunt. She openly claims to be proud to be Chinese and makes a good habit of trying to teach her children Chinese, which is laudable. But at the same time, she openly scorns Asian men and derides them in public, while praising her husband for being white. For that, I regard her as a sellout. But sometimes I am conflicted, too, because she has criticized white people and on certain instances, has even defended nonwhite people of other races in the face of white racism.

    My advice to others is to not be automatically judgmental and to cautiously approach such matters. It is never so simple.

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  54. NYPD choke a man (Eric Garner) to death while trying to detain him. The attempt to detain a “suspect” by chokeholding is an illegal police manoevre.

    The cops involved have only been put on modified duty.

    (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2698752/NYPD-cop-shown-video-putting-suspect-deadly-chokehold-arrest-gun-badge-stripped.html)

    What do you say? Will the cops get off scot free?

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  55. They may not get off free as restraining a suspect in a choke hold is illegal in most law enforcement agencies. But who knows(It’s the States)? It seems cut and dry to me, with that being said who knows what ‘excuse they may come up with? Also, there are guidelines for restraining obese people such as this man or should be as many have died of heart attacks due to the pressure being put on their vital organs. I would think they (NYPD), would properly train their officers in proper restraint techniques for various types of individuals such as the obese, elderly, teenagers etc). My question, however, is, did this man actually pose an immediate threat to these officers which warranted them ‘taking him down’ in this manner? No. They could have just as easily put out a warrant or issued some sort of ticket and fined him for selling contraband cigarettes. Nope, none of this was warranted.

    Like


  56. From watching the video, the man wasn’t even resisting arrest, or attempting to get away — he had committed no crime and wasn’t being disorderly.

    Yet he was attacked, held by the throat and, it appears, his head compressed under the weight of another man after he had been floored by 5 or 6 men — DURING the time he was saying “I can’t breathe”.

    Interesting to see how this killing shall be excused and dismissed…

    Like


  57. If the chokehold restraint is indeed illegal, why haven’t they arrested the officer then? He has committed a crime (unlike his victim). Arrest him!

    re: Herneith

    They could have just as easily put out a warrant or issued some sort of ticket and fined him for selling contraband cigarettes.

    I don’t think so. You would have to arrest him first – they accused him of selling contraband cigarettes, but it didn’t look like they had any evidence of that.

    What would they arrest him for? For being outside on the street? vagrancy?

    No, just skip all those problematic steps and kill him.

    Like


  58. I’m Canadian, from what I have read, this man had a history of selling contraband cigarettes(big deal). Do they not issue tickets and court summons for petty ‘crimes’ such as this? That is what I was basing my presumptions on , how such minor offenses are dealt with there. Here they issue summons for such ‘infractions’. You can go to court and ‘fight it’. If you are initially arrested, you would be let out on your own recognizance. Should you ignore these summons, you may be arrested and incarcerated initially. You may then be sentenced to time or, if you pay the fine, none. I don’t know what the laws in Ny are. Whether or not they were apprehending this man for something so petty, they committed manslaughter in the least. They had a similar case here where they shot a kid off the streetcar. The cop was charged with 2nd degree murder. I would not be surprised if this cop gets off in Ny, nor this one in Toronto. I hope the family sues the NYPD for civil rights infringements. This is where the ‘broken window’ policing gets you in Ny. How many other ‘suspects’ selling illegal cigarettes or some other petty ‘crime’ have they done this to but due to the lack of cameras or witnesses get away with this behaviour because the victim doesn’t die or report it?

    Like


  59. That Bratton needs to be fired. That video had my anxiety level up. There is just too much police brutality perpetrated against Black people in America. Not to mention a couple of weeks ago that poor woman the California Highway patrol savagely beat.

    Like


  60. Everyone involved in this poor man’s demise needs to loose their jobs and be sued. Racist cretins.

    Like


  61. @ Bulanik

    From watching the video, the man wasn’t even resisting arrest,

    The man was resisting arrest when he pushed the officer away and told him not to touch him. However, what I found confusing was the police’s incredibly disproportionate response to his resistance. They swiftly knocked him down and ganged up on him when he had not once displayed any violence. They were not reacting to his behavior, just to him being large and black.

    Like


  62. Kiwi, he pushed the officer away? I missed that — thanks.

    I have to ask myself why I didn’t register that?
    I don’t think I understood what he had done wrong, he wasn’t being violent and it looked “threatening” that there were so many people surrounding him.
    His saying “don’t touch” kind of seemed a reasonable response to the threat they posed to him. He probably had VERY GOOD CAUSE to resist. Damn.

    I think if I was surrounded like that, if I was an asthmatic black man and highly aware of how the police handle black men — I might push anyone too close away and tell them don’t touch, too.

    Like


  63. Question:

    How do I respond to specific comments on Abagond’s blog? I don’t see a reply button under specific comments, only a Leave a Reply window at the bottom of the page.

    Thank you

    Like


  64. ^ either quote them or include the link for their comment.

    Like


  65. Jefe,

    I do quote people but I am unable to notify them that I replied to their comment. Direct reply may not be a feature that Abagond enabled for his blog.

    I appreciate your response.

    Thank you

    Like


  66. @ biggiefriez

    I know, it’s maddening. I’ve seen other blogs where you can reply directly to comments by clicking. I don’t know why you can’t do that here.

    Like


  67. ^ I guess you have to treat it as a comment to their comment, not a reply to them personally. Yeah, some blogs allow you to insert your comment directly under another comment, ie, nested discussion threads within discussion threads.

    On this blog, people are only notified if they click to be notified, and still, that is not personalized. Maybe it is just wordpress, which is more a blog, and not a discussion forum.

    Like


  68. ugh policy statements, sort of forced into it by having jewish friends and muslim friends on fb, i may be a eff up but i’m consistant! and no, i’m not putting this in the (latest) hitler thread although that’s where it came up.

    “i do gotta say, though? that the balkanization of the ass-end of the ottoman empire ie partition of muslim lands such as we saw in bangladesh and pakistan being separated from india for the ease of administration by the british empire, then on to the lands addressed by balfour, really did put the muslim territories, already shaky and in disarray due to internecine warfare and wwi, on unequal footing with the jewish ‘homeland’ ie ‘palestine’ (which is even more twisted considering today’s political situation in the greater jerusalem area) where as the ben gurion faction gained international legitmacy after wwii and was able to accrete legal powers and recognition normally accorded to a sovereign state to a religious movement. nowadays they call that assymetric warfare if the there is a wider ‘islamist’ movement that transcends nations. huh. kinda makes ya think.
    that is all.

    #justsayin
    #doasisaynotasido”

    do you quote yourself? how does that work

    Like


  69. Hello, everyone. I would really appreciate some guidance in this particular situation. Here’s some exposition:
    When I was in high school I read an essay by an Asian-American woman who spoke about joining her university’s crew (rowing) team. I could really identify with her lack of a concrete identity and was intrigued by the way that rowing helped improve both her sense of self and her body image. I’m in college now, and last year I joined my own university’s crew team. I’ve fallen in love with it; rowing is amazing.
    Many people (even people of color) have come and gone but throughout the year the only non-white people who’ve stayed are me and the club president, and she graduated this May. I’ve been the only PoC/the only black person in the room for virtually my entire life, so this doesn’t bother me. The problem? The team is filled with racists. All year people had been calling things “ghetto” and saying not-so-covertly insulting things about black people to my face. To give an example, the woman who’s supposed to be my coach next year is from California. She played basketball with black girls when she was younger, and laughingly said that it was “the ‘bad’ thing about hanging out with black girls was that she wanted sooo badly to be like them.” They’d even said openly racist things about non-black people when I was in the room, presumably because they thought I wouldn’t mind as I wasn’t “one of them.” All year I’d been trying to go along to get along, but we had a training trip in the spring that lasted a week. After a few days of constantly being with them I couldn’t take it anymore and snapped. I started responding and things quickly became awkward and tense. Some people became very passive-aggressive, and I was very isolated.

    I think my biggest mistake was trying too hard to make them like me. Now I don’t want to be friends with them and know that they, no matter how “nice” they are to my face, they don’t want to be friends with me either. But I want to keep rowing, and to do that I need them to at least respect me. I know that to keep my self-esteem intact I’ll have to stand up for myself but this year has made the problems that I had with anxiety, confidence, and expressing myself even worse. What do you think I should do to combat their racism? I’d really appreciate any advice that anyone might have. And thanks to everyone who answers in advance; I know that this was a lot to read.

    Like


  70. The blue sign now

    Like


  71. Halisi,
    My advice is to do your best to let them know you don’t like the way they talk without losing your calm. You don’t have to make a speech just say that you think they’re being stupid and leave it at that. And then reinforce it by deliberately not engaging them in conversation unless it is specifically related to rowing. They will get the message. You’re better off not trying to force anything with them.

    Like


  72. you can’t fix stupid

    Like


  73. @halisi

    If you truly love the sport and don’t want to give that up, my suggestion would be to continue training with the group, but making it completely professional. Meaning, treat it like a job. Start making friends outside of crew. You know they aren’t your friends so keep it strictly about crew. Don’t hang out with them outside of practice. Maybe start exploring other interest that will attract the kind of people you want to be around. Good luck!

    Like


  74. @ Kiwi:

    My father is Asian but he never once talked to me about issues that affect Asian men. Do you think Elliot Rodger’s white father talked to him about issues affecting Asian men?

    I’m intrigued by your post in the Elliot Rodger’s thread. My father, and mostly, my mother talked to me about most of the issues that affected Asians. As a young girl, my father warned me to be wary of most white people especially white men. He was worried that I would be seduced by a white guy. The reason? Before my father immigrated to Canada, he said he had witnessed the racist attitudes of some US/Aussie/Brit expatriates living in the Philippines looking down on/making fun of Filipinos. However, it didn’t stop them from getting it on with some of the local Filipina women.

    As for my mom, she came from another area of the Philippines, and she didn’t didn’t have direct contact with white people until she came to Canada. She also wasn’t surprised by the attitudes of white Canadians when we moved to a predominantly white neighborhood. She said white people’s reputation preceded them coming from friends and relatives who had already experienced racism from white people.

    Like


  75. @ leigh204

    I’ve read many of your posts and unfortunately, I don’t think your family’s views apply to most Asians (that I know). Most of them like white people more than they like blacks. Hell, many Asians like whites more than they like other Asians. Asian Americans might be more open-minded overall, but usually after I’ve known an Asian immigrant long enough, they turn out to be racist against blacks. Interestingly, they never talk smack about whites the way they do for blacks. I spoke up for a period of time but I slowly learned that people have already made up their minds. I’ve even discovered that some Asian families encourage their daughters to marry white men.

    A rough quote of what my friend said of his family friends when talking to their daughters:

    “I want you to find a rich, white man to marry when you grow up and make Mommy proud.”

    Like


  76. @ leigh204

    One of my Filipino friends told me that in the Philippines, white men are practically worshipped by the local women and are even preferred over Filipino men, as whites are seen as being of higher status. Two of my aunts grew up in Taiwan but they have never been romantically involved with Asian men and both winded up married to white men. One of them said she would never have considered an Asian man and the other is very racist against blacks and Hispanics. One of my longtime family friends only dates white men and she obsessively talks about how great white people are in conversations. I have personally been disrespected by and had my friends insulted by Asian women with white boyfriends. Now I know most Asian women are not like this, such as yourself, but I have often held negative feelings towards Asian women because of this phenomenon. Sometimes, when I meet an Asian woman, I assume she automatically looks down on me, especially if she is with a white man. It got so bad that one time, I started skipping a class because I found out that the Asian teacher (who happened to be obnoxious) was married to a white man. When I was in the hospital, I feared that the Asian nurses would treat me worse if they had white husbands. I don’t think I’m paranoid, as some Asian women really do look down on Asian men. I’ve met enough who I’m sure, if given the chance, would have spat in my face simply for being an Asian male.

    Sorry about the rant. I hope you understand where I’m coming from.

    Like


  77. @ Kiwi:

    @ leigh204

    I’ve read many of your posts and unfortunately, I don’t think your family’s views apply to most Asians (that I know). Most of them like white people more than they like blacks. Hell, many Asians like whites more than they like other Asians.

    Perhaps in your neck of the woods, Kiwi. Where I’m from, I know plenty of Asian families who have the same views as my family. I consider myself fortunate I wasn’t brainwashed as other white-worshipping Asians, and it’s disturbing. Talk about selling your soul.

    My husband and I talk about racism all the time. There will be days when he tells me situations where something happened. Just the other day, I went with him to get some gas. And when we were already inside the gas station to pay, some white guy came in and stood next to my husband.

    For some unexplained reason, the cashier, who happened to be white, turned away from my husband and faced the other guy to serve him. It was funny (not haha funny) because my husband was first in line. Anyway, this didn’t sit well with my husband and he spoke up. He said, “I believe I was here first.” And he leaned forward and edged out the white guy who didn’t look impressed btw. lol! This is what Asians need to do more of and that’s sticking up for themselves. If they don’t, then everyone else will think Asians are pushovers.

    Like


  78. @ Kiwi:

    I know what you’re talking about as I have seen my fair share of white worshipping Filipinos/Asians. Frankly, I always give any Asian male or female the side eye if he or she is disrespecting fellow Asians and praising white people. When I was dating my Asian exes, there would be that particular Asian woman with a white bf who would hold on to him for dear life and give me the triumph look because she bagged a white guy. (No, dear, I couldn’t care less if your man was white and he ain’t all that.)

    Like


  79. I forgot to mention that she was likely insecure. She probably thought I was going to steal her white bf. Nope. I don’t steal what I don’t want.

    Like


  80. @Kiwi I’m so sad reading all of your postings. The same kind of attitude pervades the gay asian community as well, at least the American one. Gay Asian men pretty much act like how you describe Asian women. When I tell you these guys would probably sell their family to get the attention of a white man and once/if they do, they think they won the lottery. The negative asian male stereotypes seep into the gay male culture too, especially the hook up culture, there’s a running gag about the quotes that you see on, literally, the majority of profiles on hookup/dating websites; “no fats, no fems, no asians.” Though generally, the stereotype works for them in some cases as it isn’t uncommon to see young asian men with older white men, though the younger white men want nothing to do with asian men because of the stereotype of them being “feminine” and soft and delicate among other things. Also, I can’t help but notice your experiences and views on the plight of asian men in relation to asian women VERY much so mirrors the plight of black women in relation to black men.

    Like


  81. @ leigh204

    And when we were already inside the gas station to pay, some white guy came in and stood next to my husband.

    For some unexplained reason, the cashier, who happened to be white, turned away from my husband and faced the other guy to serve him.

    Wow. Something similar happened to me. My mother and I were in line at a store once, and the rest of the shoppers in line were white. When it was finally our turn at the front, the white cashier saw us, then walked away to go chat with his friends for several minutes. On other occasions, the white cashier will overcharge us “by accident” and when my mother corrects her, she acts all embarrassed as if she hadn’t done it on purpose. I remember another time when I asked a white douchebag to add something to my order. He tapped the register only a couple times, so I realized he hadn’t actually done anything as I’ve worked registers before. When I called him out, he pretended he hadn’t done anything wrong. I confirmed he was lying when I spoke to another employee. I can go on, but I’ll start ranting again.

    Something strange I’ve noticed is that sometimes, when I go out to restaurants with my family in white areas, the servers will seat us near the other Asians. I was wondering if this happens to you, too.

    Like


  82. @ bms103

    Gay Asian men pretty much act like how you describe Asian women.

    I’ve heard about this. It’s no surprise, though, as the media’s effects are likely amplified for small communities.

    Also, I can’t help but notice your experiences and views on the plight of asian men in relation to asian women VERY much so mirrors the plight of black women in relation to black men.

    This. Exactly. Thank you for noticing.

    The gendered stereotypes of Asians run opposite to the stereotypes of blacks. Asians are seen as feminine whereas blacks are seen as masculine. This means that Asian women and black men are more accepted in white circles as opposed to Asian men and black women. Again, it’s no surprise that the better accepted half of each minority group internalizes the stereotypes of their same race, opposite sex counterparts and uses that as a vehicle to propel themselves closer to white people.

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/12/13/wet-white-entertainment-television/#comment-206023

    However, I think this dynamic applies more so to Asian women than to black men as Asians have the Model Minority stereotype. Asian women are seen as submissive dolls who stroke white men’s egos while black men are seen as threats who will steal “their” women.

    Like


  83. @ Kiwi”

    Something strange I’ve noticed is that sometimes, when I go out to restaurants with my family in white areas, the servers will seat us near the other Asians. I was wondering if this happens to you, too.

    Not really. My family and I are seated wherever there’s an available table.

    Like


  84. @Kiwi Yes, I was going to write that but I was like eh, he’ll know what I’m saying lol as for your thing about asian women, I don’t think being model minority has to do with, for the most part at least. You also have gender dynamics at play here and a patriarchal system. I remember being on YouTube and there was this, seemingly, white guy who would always troll using racial/ethnic slurs and telling people, regardless of race, to stay within their race or whatever, racial purity bs. Then I decided to go on his channel one day to see and see all the comments people left badgering him about his views and what a horrible person he was (so nasty that he made fun of a white woman, who happened to have a baby with a black guy, who made a video talking about the death of her baby), then I saw a comment from a white guy who I guess expressed his love for either asian or stereotypical latino women (mestiza), I can’t remember which one, and he was asking the guy what was wrong with him liking them. The guy was like there’s nothing wrong with it I just like for people to marry/procreate in their race and then the white guy said “ook so your the kinda white supremacist i dont mind as much (or the kind that has more of a problem when white chicks date black guys than the other way around).” Unsurprising, but I was still like wow. It’s something about men, maybe the privilege, but they want to be able to do whatever they want but control women. I’ve noticed the same thing with black guys, worldstar hiphop is a cesspool of ignorant people period, but whenever there’s a video about a black woman/women the comments are filled with, seemingly, black guys berating and demonizing these women while simultaneously exalting non-black women. Meanwhile, a recent video got very popular that featured a white guy with his black girlfriend fooling around in a bathroom, these EXACT guys who were berating black women and talking down on them and talking about how great interracial relationships were, were now talking about what scum the black girl was for being with a white guy, literally one person said they don’t respect black women who date white guys, talking about how we need to “keep the race alive” and just other completely hypocritical bs.

    Like


  85. Ooh, Peanut! Are there any prospective suitors?🙂

    Like


  86. Awww. For you, dear Peanut.

    Like


  87. on Wed 30 Jul 2014 at 12:26:53 wordynerdygirl

    @ abagond et al

    This Australian video about the mental health effects of ‘casual racism’ is going viral (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvTyI41PvTk).

    Like


  88. @ wordynerdygirl

    Unfortunately, I have seen Asians behave that way towards blacks as well, not just whites. Asians do not feel the same way about whites and usually treat them better for their race. I’ve seen this first-hand.

    @ leigh204

    When I was dating my Asian exes, there would be that particular Asian woman with a white bf who would hold on to him for dear life and give me the triumph look because she bagged a white guy.

    I encounter those women every day. They’ve given me that triumphant look, too, and it’s always one of spite. Usually, I just assume they had a poor relationship with their father or other male family member. Ironically, white women who had poor relationships with their fathers won’t be caught dead with Asian men. Only white men are given the benefit of the doubt by all races of women. I’ve even seen Asian women competing for the same white guy. It would be funny if it weren’t so sad to see Asian women lining up side by side with white women, pining for white men’s attention.

    Like


  89. @ wordynerdygirl

    Thanks! There is also a behind-the-scenes video where they ask the actors about their experiences of racism in Australia:

    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_AbjhXv0cI)

    Like


  90. @ Peanut

    “abagond what about a blog post on African-Americans and DNA testing?

    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDOzrU0AU-w)

    Okay. Look for it Saturday or so.

    Like


  91. @ Kiwi

    @ leigh204

    When I was dating my Asian exes, there would be that particular Asian woman with a white bf who would hold on to him for dear life and give me the triumph look because she bagged a white guy.

    I encounter those women every day. They’ve given me that triumphant look, too, and it’s always one of spite.

    I have had other Asian women who ONLY date white men come up to me and wonder why I was with my Asian exes. A couple have said I could do better than an Asian man. Really now?

    Like


  92. @ leigh204

    I have had other Asian women who ONLY date white men come up to me and wonder why I was with my Asian exes. A couple have said I could do better than an Asian man. Really now?

    I feel so sorry for those women’s fathers, brothers, and sons especially, if they have any.

    Like


  93. @ leigh204

    A couple have said I could do better than an Asian man.

    Believe it or not, you would. Asian women who marry white men benefit ENORMOUSLY from having a white partner. White men retain all of their white privilege when they marry Asian women, so that means they can confer a lot of their privilege onto their wives. In general, Asian women who marry white men are not much different from white women. I regard them as the same. By their own admission, my aunts who married white men have never experienced discrimination. If they were white women instead, I doubt their lives would change much, if at all.

    Like


  94. @ Kiwi:

    I have had many opportunities to date white men considering I was surrounded by white people well into my late teens. I’m not tooting my own horn here. Far from it, but these certain white men would ALWAYS approach me. Never the other way around. It’s a fact they used ridiculous lines on me commenting how sensual I looked with my long, black hair, silky beige skin, and my fierce looking eyes. Wth does that even mean? Imagine the look on my face when one guy talked about how tight an intimate part of me could be. Now when I heard these same men disparage Asian men, without a doubt, I could not trust let alone love men like this.

    Like


  95. @ leigh204

    Now when I heard these same men disparage Asian men…

    LOL! Maybe that’ll win them over. Sadly, there probably are Asian women who would be turned on by that and they might even join in on the Asian male bashing. My aunt does that in front of her son and her white husband just smiles along. She’s also said some nasty and hurtful things to my face before and I’m sure me being an Asian male had something to do with that, given the way she speaks down to other Asian men. Come to think of it, I can’t remember her crying at her father’s funeral, but that was long ago so I’m not sure.

    I’d say Asian women and white men are in it together. My aunt’s husband once offhandedly complained to my mother that his kids didn’t look like him because they were a different race than him. When my aunt had her first grandchild, she was so excited at how the child looked white (the child is 3/4 white, 1/4 Asian).

    Like


  96. It’s a fact they used ridiculous lines on me commenting how sensual I looked with my long, black hair, silky beige skin, and my fierce looking eyes.

    I remember one of my white uncle’s white guy friends asking him about my aunt and what he thought of her looks. I think he said something about a lotus blossom. I also caught my uncle’s white guy friend at a different time and place discreetly groping my aunt’s buttock in a way that looked like he was helping her out of the vehicle. She didn’t object, anyhow.

    Like


  97. @Anne and lifelearner:

    Thank you! I have the nasty habits of both wanting everyone to like me and constantly putting others before myself. I’d already focused on the first one, but the notion of refusing to interact with them didn’t occur to me. It’ll be difficult (because of the aforementioned habits) but I’m obviously going to be much healthier in the long run. Thanks again for answering.

    Like


  98. Thank you, Peanut. That’s very kind of you. Whoever it is you end up with, that guy is going to be very lucky. I think a lot of commenters know that.

    Like


  99. on Thu 31 Jul 2014 at 09:53:18 wordynerdygirl

    @ abagond

    Thanks, I saw that one too. The shorter vid is screening on prime time tv here now too. Hopefully it has an impact.

    The whole thing was very moving but the segment with the older gentleman on the bus really got to me in particular. Beyond Blue also published a report which showed that about 1 in 5 people in Aus would avoid sitting next to an Indigenous person – really disgraceful. I wonder what the results of a similar survey would be elsewhere.

    You can see the report here: (http://www.beyondblue.org.au/docs/default-source/research-project-files/bl1337-report—tns-discrimination-against-indigenous-australians.pdf?sfvrsn=2)

    Like


  100. @ Peanut

    Some of my cousins didn’t get married until well into their 30s. You’re actually younger than my parents were when they got married. My brother is older than you and unmarried though I have no doubt he will get married eventually. One of my uncles just got married, and he’s almost in his 60s. In general, younger generations are getting married much later, so you’re far from being late to the game, so to speak.

    I’m confident someone like you will get married. Based on your comments, you have a great personality and guys are attracted to you, so I’m betting it will happen one day. If you can’t do it, no one can.

    Like


  101. @ Peanut:

    Are you involved in cultural organizations? Many of my friends have met their spouses in the same organizations they’ve joined. Have you considered that?

    Like


  102. @ Peanut

    Leigh has the right idea. There’s nothing wrong with you. You just happen to be in the wrong environment.

    Like


  103. Where’s Ms.TooGood? I need to discuss Welcome To Sweeite Pies, lol.
    She had a blog, anyone remember the name for Ms.TooGood blog?

    Like


  104. Sorry if this is off topic but a book you guys should read is Kindred by Octavia Butler. I think Abagond should do a post on it. For summer reading it was an option and I had to chose it- never read a book about a modern day black woman going back to time to protect her white ancestor least she die.

    What scared me about this book was how Dana the main character came to see the plantation as home and her own time where she was free as a strange foreign place where she did not belong. Kevin her white husband also felt out of place and even lashed out at her when he wasn’t adapting to the present age as fast as he could. Both of them had been changed by their harrowing experience.

    Best part of the book was the characters. No one was one dimensional. Everyone had their flaws but good traits too even Rufus. As boy he had been nice to Dana but once he inherited his fathers plantation and slaves he became possessive and brutal also annoying needy. But he did need Dana- without her he would’ve been dead long before and she needed him to stay alive so it created a twisted kind of relationship. I hated Dana for like trusting him and crap but I guess it was understandable since Dana was a compassionate person who saw him as a product of his time.

    It’s a great book that shows the link between are present age and slavery and most of all that Kindred could mean so many things. It is not neccesary to be related I saw Dana and her husband as kindred more than Dana and Rufus because they were both writers, struggled through poverty and had went back in time together and witnessed (and in Dana’s case experienced the horrors of slavery and changed as a result. The slaves Dana worked with were also Kindred trying to survive through slavery like she and make it to freedom. They were scared and angry too at their enslavement and actually had it worse than Dana.

    It’s a great book Abagond should do a post on – I enjoy his reviews on books movies everything. He always points out stuff I don’t notice

    Like


  105. As far as I know there have been around 14000 intentional homicides in the USA in 2012. I take 2012 because it is very recent and yet long enough ago so that there might be already good statistics.
    So my question is: does anybody know any reliable, official, data how many of those intentional homicides had white/hispanic/black/asian perpetrators and white/hispanic/black/asian victims? Especially I would be interesting to see data on interracial homicides.
    I would be very thankful for any hints where I could look for such data!

    Like


  106. Peanut
    well, how can you know that white men think they are “something better” if you do not talk to them?
    If anything most white males feel inferior to black people in general. The most important reason for this is of course that most white females ceteris paribus prefer black males about white or asian males. Other reasons are that black men are on average physical stronger, that they get attributed a higher value in current mass culture via their success in sports, music, etc.

    Like


  107. @ Erik Sieven

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/07/01/bidil/#comment-241805

    You will be pleased to know that white women and even more so East Asian women prefer white men over East Asian men or black men, according to studies. In fact, white women prefer East Asian men over black men, not the other way around. South Asian men are least preferred by white women. With the exception of East Asians, women of all races prefer their own men more than the men prefer their own women. Black men, white men, and even South Asian men are all more likely to date out than their female counterparts. East Asian men are the one exception that gets screwed because they are the only race of men that dates out less than the women.

    Like


  108. @Curiousity,

    Many thanks for the ‘Kindred’ recommendation. I’m a big SF reader but the genre had always struck me as overwhelmingly white. I will read Ms Butler’s work with interest.

    Grateful for the heads up.

    Like


  109. I’m a writer.

    I recently went through my old contributor’s copies of magazines that published my stuff in the 90s. Amongst the work I’d forgotten was a story that won an award from the UK’s (at the time) leading horror fiction magazine. As I reread the tale I wanted to kick the living shite out of my earlier self.

    The story was set in a fictitious African location, featured made-up African-sounding names and made-up African religious elements. To make things worse, at the time of writing I was working in a multiracial environment and had a number of African friends. Rather than asking them for information, I just made shit up. It was shallow crap.

    The whole nostalgia trip has been painfully embarrassing.

    Flame away. I earned it.

    Like


  110. @peanut

    Yep Kindred is on my list of fav books now along with The Light in the Forest by Conrad Richter, Oedipus, and The Kite Runner. I always liked tragic/grim works.

    @buddhu

    I find that troubling too and the whole cast being white is not limited to scifi. Fantasy too has a lack of diversity and romance but that’s kind of changing. Humans are always white aliens are always white it’s ridiculous. I want to change that in a idea I had for a book where there are tensions between androids and humans in a post apocalyptic world

    Like


  111. Are you involved in cultural organizations? Many of my friends have met their spouses in the same organizations they’ve joined. Have you considered that?

    Yeah, this is a good idea.

    It doesn’t have to be purely cultural — any organization or activity where there are many people involved, e.g.,.
    – a drama group
    – language class
    – sports
    – community organization (e.g., environmental, activist, etc.)
    – volunteer at a place you love and where many people go

    I am a scuba diving instructor, and invited people to join activities. I have already had 3 couples meet (one is engaged, one is married already).

    The upshot – you cannot fail meeting someone doing an activity that you love. Because even if you did not meet someone most of the time, you are still doing something you love. And the other people joining already love the activity, so you are constantly meeting people with shared interests.

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  112. Atleast in Europe the situation seems to be different, this study finds the same as I expected: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2099449/Are-human-beings-hard-wired-different-races-attractive-Study-finds-white-people-rate-white-partners-SECOND.html
    but I suppose those studies are not really good enough,a s there is to less research about such things.
    I rather trust my own eyes, which tell me that males of westafrican ancestry are by far the most attactuve to white women, east asian males tjose who are by the least attractive. This is what I see in my hometown, which is one of the biggest german cities. In the last three days I have counted the couples with westafrican men/white wife with and without children which I have seen on zhe street while foing to work, shopping etc. I counted 15 of such couples. In the same time i saw 0 couples with eastafrican males, white wife, 0 couples with black wife/white male, 0 couple with east asian male/female white male/female, maybe three couples with westasian males, european female.
    Also Iif you look at school classes in big german cities you three or four children with westafrican father, white mother in each class, all other combinations are very seldom.

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  113. @Erik:

    You may or may not be familiar with The Daily Mail to which you linked. It is a mainstream British tabloid – one of the nastiest, most disingenuous, scaremongering, right wing, racist, Islamophobic gutter rags one could hope to avoid.

    While some of what it publishes is, no doubt, accurate, it is selective and all material is chosen to contribute to a larger overall reactionary agenda. Always question the motives of what they publish – even when it seems harmless.

    Just a bit of context.

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  114. As far as I know that “mainstream” in UK means “hysterical and absolutely irrational antiracist”

    Like


  115. You may or may not be familiar with The Daily Mail to which you linked. It is a mainstream British tabloid – one of the nastiest, most disingenuous, scaremongering, right wing, racist, Islamophobic gutter rags one could hope to avoid.

    I agree with you, but the ‘gossip’ section is comical as I wonder ‘who are half these people?

    Like


  116. An interesting thing happened to me today. A white panhandler asked me for spare change and I told him I had none to give. (I rarely carry any cash with me.) He went on a tirade about foreigners taking jobs away from hardworking Canadians, told me to go back to China, and called me a slur as I walked away. Oddly enough, this isn’t the first time this has happened. *shrugs*
    Some people, eh?

    Like


  117. leigh204:

    “He went on a tirade about foreigners taking jobs away from hardworking Canadians, told me to go back to China, and called me a slur as I walked away.”

    Yet he asked a ,”foreigner” for money!

    We as minorities are only good in white people’s eyes, if we are serving them in some sense, if not we are treated with such disdain.

    Like


  118. @ Peanut

    My guess is that if a guy isn’t interested in a girl, he won’t pay any attention to her. If guys are staring at you, they’re certainly not doing it because they don’t like what they see. Girls seem to behave similarly, at least in my experience.

    Like


  119. @ Erik Sieven

    You’re right that white women (and even some Asian women, I might add) are not attracted to Asian men. On a regular day out, I see maybe 30 to 40 Asian women with white men in my area, but maybe only 1 or 2 Asian men with white women, if not 0.

    I also see more black men with white women than black women with white men, but I don’t see blacks and whites dating each other much, anyway. White men are much more attracted to Asian women than white women are attracted to black men, though.

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  120. @ leigh204

    I told you before that my hometown is majority Asian. Here, the homeless and panhandlers are nearly all white, despite their white privilege and most having been born in the US. And yet, whites still like to complain about Asians succeeding where they failed and tell blacks to pull themselves up by the bootstraps. I’ve even met whites who assume Asians benefit unfairly from affirmative action when in reality Asians are the most penalized group in university admissions.

    My point is that whites will always complain about nonwhites whether they succeed or not. Whites say nonwhites have only themselves to blame if they fail. Okay, but if nonwhites succeed, whites blame them for their own failures. Sounds fair, huh?

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  121. @ Peanut

    even less asian men are interested in black women…so.

    This is a case where it really goes both ways. I have seen Asian men negatively stereotype black women just as I have also seen black women negatively stereotype Asian men. Ironically, neither group seems to feel the same way about whites. As with all minority groups, blacks and Asians in general like whites more than they like each other. This is actually backed by stats and my experiences do not contradict them, sadly.

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  122. @ Peanut

    Guys get nervous around girls, especially ones they like. Touching one’s own hair is a sign of self-consciousness. The guy was likely aware that you were looking back. A guy who thinks you’re ugly would act as if you weren’t there. When I caught a couple of Jamaican girls (they were sisters and both were related to Marcus Garvey, interestingly) staring at me on multiple instances, I looked away abruptly and felt extremely self-conscious. A guy would have to be crazy to think they were ugly. When it comes to women, men can be racist, but that doesn’t mean they can’t recognize someone who’s pretty. In any case, women are more racist than men when it comes to dating. Women are more likely to factor race into their dating choices, which again, is backed by stats.

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  123. @ Kiwi

    You’re right that white women (and even some Asian women, I might add) are not attracted to Asian men. On a regular day out, I see maybe 30 to 40 Asian women with white men in my area, but maybe only 1 or 2 Asian men with white women, if not 0.

    Actually, you see similar ratios in Asia too, if not more extreme. I see dozens of white men / asian women couples DAILY, pretty much every time I go out. I see Asian male / white female couples maybe once per month.

    I have read articles about SINGLE white expat women in Asia. They are almost destined to remain dateless. But, it is not clear to me if they are rejecting Asian men or if Asian men are rejecting them. I think both.

    I don’t see blacks and whites dating each other much, anyway.

    I saw this quite a bit when I go back to Metro DC, particular in the Maryland suburbs (Montgomery, Prince George’s and Charles counties), areas that have a large black middle class and significant black enrollment in colleges and universities that whites also attend.
    You might see it fairly often in metro Baltimore and parts of New Jersey too. I wonder if you will see it often in Metro Atlanta also. Blacks in California are a lower percentage of the population and it seemed, at least to me, to be concentrated in highly segregated areas.

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  124. on Mon 4 Aug 2014 at 09:28:23 wordynerdygirl

    ICB on the claim that women are not attracted to East Asian men. There are HEAPS of AMWF couples in Sydney – 10 years ago there were scarcely any but now I notice almost as many AMWF couples as the opposite combination.

    I think people who claim AM are ‘not attractive’ in this thread have another agenda. In whose interest is it to claim that AM are not attractive to women? Hmmm.

    Like


  125. on Mon 4 Aug 2014 at 09:36:57 wordynerdygirl

    Oh, and I also CB on the claim that expat women are ‘dateless’. I had PLENTY of attention in Korea, I even featured in a style magazine for Christ’s sake. Never had to worry about a date, ever, and neither did any of my female friends there. How patronising your comment is!!!!!!!!

    I really have to stop reading the comments on this blog. Whether they’re from rabid white supremacists, strange conspiracy theorists or just plain cranks they get my blood pressure far too high.

    Like


  126. First off, I’ve been reading for maybe about 4 months now, I found the blog because I found “sub-saharan african” meaning “black,” to be problematic for a variety of reasons so I googled something in relation to that and then I ended up on a post Abagond made about it, started reading other things and fell in love with the blog lol now I’ve finally decided to venture out into commenting (my professor last semester made us create a wordpress because one of our projects had to do with adding to a blog he’s created for his students). I literally spend hours reading the comments on random posts and it’s literally like watching a TV show, everyone with their different personalities and previous histories. I literally get up to go do something else then think to myself, “wait what tv show did I just get done watching…..oh, no, I was reading those comments on Abagond’s blog.”

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  127. Anyway, I said all of that to say that I’m curious how old everyone is, I’ve been quite surprised at the age of many of the commenters, talking about growing up in the 60s, getting their degree 25 years ago, etc. I guess I’m still under the impression that older people don’t know how to, or rather don’t have an interest in, navigating the internet. I’m 19 going into my sophomore year of University and was just curious about the age of you commenters….

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  128. Hey lifelearner

    I haven’t watched many episodes of this season of sweetie pies, I’ve seen the episode where ms Robbie fractures her arm and the episode when tim got a new assistant. I will have to catch up on some episodes.

    Like


  129. on Mon 4 Aug 2014 at 11:35:11 wordynerdygirl

    @bms103

    Yes, the posts are really interesting and so are many of the commenters. This is a fascinating blog which is why, after two years of commenting here and three years of reading, I find it very difficult to wean myself off.

    I’m 32 but I think there are quite a few people here who are somewhat older than that. There are also some younger people – from memory Peanut is very young, so is Adeen.

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  130. @ wordy

    I really have to stop reading the comments on this blog. Whether they’re from rabid white supremacists, strange conspiracy theorists or just plain cranks they get my blood pressure far too high.

    Lol…this blog is only a slim slice of a virtual world.
    An older relative always used to say to me “be careful of the written form”. I understand what he meant now. I suppose all the reader can do — apart from having a life, which is vital — is to pick the wheat from the chaff

    Because this blog is a written medium, a lot that would be blatantly obvious in the Real World about a comment or commenter, gets missed.
    (you know I mean?😉 ) We are left with words on a computer screen.
    And even if a picture is posted, what does it ensure?
    There was a time when someone said she was who she said she was, because there was a photo of her on the gravatar.
    But another commenter said, how do we know it’s you?
    *

    On the other side, something might be written and it gets completely misunderstood. Completely.
    You mean that’s ever happened to you!

    Has everything you’ve ever written to strangers — every idea, experience, opinion, interpretation, whatever — always been fully and properly understood by them? They might think YOU are a crank, when clearly, in my opinion, you are not.

    That stuff can happen to people who aren’t rabid or particularly strange.

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  131. @ bms103

    I guess I’m still under the impression that older people don’t know how to, or rather don’t have an interest in, navigating the internet.

    I don’t know if that is true. All ages use the internet now, and “older people” are curious even if it’s not as familiar to them. A lot of people I know have phones with internet and use it…

    Certainly, younger people, let’s say, people under 20 or 25, know their way around the internet far more in the countries that have access, etc.
    When I was that age — there was no internet — typewriters and books were the thing, and I wouldn’t miss it, except for booking flights, etc.

    Like


  132. on Mon 4 Aug 2014 at 12:00:45 wordynerdygirl

    @ bulanik

    I have always been honest here. In fact, I have emailed abagond previously using my real name – since I’m the only woman in Australia who bears that name it would be straightforward for him to verify my identity.

    I’m ok with him knowing my name and who I am but of course I would not post here under my real name all the time.

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  133. on Mon 4 Aug 2014 at 12:03:41 wordynerdygirl

    * correction, I would never post publicly here under my real name. That’s a dangerous thing to do on a blog where very controversial topics are discussed.

    Like


  134. @ Bulanik

    I also email Abagond using my real name. And I am probably the only woman who bears that name in the country I (usually) write from, too.
    This is not about honesty: in fact, providing info to back up and “prove” is just what the “rabid” (to use your word) are after, so it’s just common-sense to avoid it altogether no matter what it looks like.

    Like


  135. That comment was meant for you, wordynerdygirl ^^

    Like


  136. on Mon 4 Aug 2014 at 12:23:42 wordynerdygirl

    @ Bulanik

    True.

    Like


  137. @ wordy, also a subject doesn’t even have to particularly controversial.
    It can be even a small things that “trips” a switch.
    Another commenter saw that happen just this week on a thread about dating.
    It can become personal and ugly very quickly.

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  138. @ wordy

    It can be frustrating.
    But, when you think about it, it’s just a slice, a sliver, of the blog-o-sphere.
    On a personal level (if one is a busy person with a juicy life), it’s not much of a deal, and you have to wonder about some characters…

    That said, there are, of course, real, decent and very nice individuals here behind their computer screens, and I’ve gotten to know some them, and them me, over the years. We get to know each other a fair bit.
    But that trust, and those relationships, are not part of this blog.

    One just has to be careful.

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  139. @ Bulanik:

    @ wordy, also a subject doesn’t even have to particularly controversial.
    It can be even a small things that “trips” a switch.
    Another commenter saw that happen just this week on a thread about dating.
    It can become personal and ugly very quickly.

    I hope it’s okay if I put my two cents in?🙂 Some people online let loose a barrage of personal insults if they don’t like what you have to say. Why, in fact, recently, a stranger sent me a string of nasty comments because of what I wrote here on Abagond’s blog. I will admit I was taken aback, but I realized this person has major issues. I mean, who takes the time to write all that hate-filled stuff to someone they don’t know?

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  140. Some people online let loose a barrage of personal insults if they don’t like what you have to say…..but I realized this person has major issues.
    I mean, who takes the time to write all that hate-filled stuff to someone they don’t know?

    A coward, leigh204.
    I just hope the sick individual who personally attacks you doesn’t become obsessed and keeps doing it week after week, month after month.

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  141. on Mon 4 Aug 2014 at 13:29:00 wordynerdygirl

    @leigh204

    That’s very true and unfortunately I’ve also been guilty from time to time of making ad hominem attacks (although never to the extent of being nasty or abusive) when someone says something I don’t like.

    I’m sorry that someone has said really nasty things to you. That shows they lack the intelligence to actually engage with your arguments on an intellectual level.

    Like


  142. I don’t let it affect me unless a death threat is involved. A few years ago, some creepy guy online made a death threat against me via PMs (personal messages) because he didn’t like what I said on a forum we both were members of.

    I contacted one of the moderators and I showed him proof of this person’s harassment and death threat. His actions weren’t tolerated and he was banned, thank God. There are people out there with SERIOUS issues. What is going on in these people’s minds that they think it’s okay to behave in that awful manner?

    Like


  143. @ leigh204

    What a disgusting situation! And, so weird: why anyone obsessively makes personal attacks at a stranger on the internet defies most sane people’s understanding. Surely, anyone can disagree about a topic without that.

    I can’t imagine a situation where that would be tolerated.
    Especially when a moderator or blog keeper SEES it and deletes their comments whilst telling them the reason: you’re deleted for personal attacks.

    If someone pig-headedly carries on making personal attacks, overtly or covertly, even after they are told why they are deleted — then it’s the moderator / blog owner’s responsibility to stop them at the first sign of it again.

    Your moderator didn’t mess about in the situation you described,
    After all, you don’t know what kind of ugliness that stuff could have eventually led to…

    Like


  144. @ jefe

    I have read articles about SINGLE white expat women in Asia. They are almost destined to remain dateless. But, it is not clear to me if they are rejecting Asian men or if Asian men are rejecting them. I think both.

    Same here. From what I’ve read, white female expats in Asia lament that all the white male expats are out dating Asian women, leaving them with nobody to date. And they will say this while millions of Asian men pass right under their noses every day.

    I believe you remember the study I pulled up of Asian American dating preferences. 35% of Asian men were opposed to dating white women while only 11% of Asian women opposed dating white men. On the other hand, 93% of white women were opposed to dating Asian men while only 53% of white men were opposed to dating Asian women.

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  145. @ jefe

    I forgot to mention that according to the same study, 40% of Asian women were opposed to dating Asian men. This is why Asian men are upset by the disparity. Asian women like white men more than they like their own men.

    Just the other day, I was out with friends and an Asian woman and her white boyfriend came up behind me. Without asking nicely or saying “please”, the Asian woman told me to get out of her way, as if I was street garbage or something. Welcome to Asian male bashing.

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  146. @ Peanut

    I said:

    the Asian woman told me to get out of her way, as if I was street garbage or something. Welcome to Asian male bashing.

    You said:

    that’s just rude regardless. what did you say back?

    I quietly stepped aside. I took one look at her white boyfriend, though, and struggled to supress a laugh. To put it bluntly, that guy (and many other white men who date Asian women) was the kind of white guy that even most white women probably don’t want.

    To clarify what I mean, whenever I eat out at Chinese or other Asian restaurants, there will usually be some very old, fat, ugly, balding, or plain gross-looking white men with their younger, better-looking Asian wives. Contrastingly, you will never catch a white woman with an unattractive Asian man. Only white men are given that kind of special consideration.

    Like


  147. @ Peanut

    he was half-Japanese from his mother and his father was Swedish. his father was a weirdo, but I don’t think he had the type of self-hate that we speak about here because I looked on his Facebook and he was a part of the Asian heritage club at his college or something…so he clearly didn’t deny his asian side.

    Not necessarily. I read an Asian guy’s blog, and he described one of the officers in his high school’s Asian club as being a Eurasian girl with a white father (obviously). She was very active, involved, and discussed Asian issues at length. But after a year, she stopped going suddenly. The Asian guy asked her why one day. She said that she didn’t even look Asian (she looked fully white), would never be affected by Asian issues, anyway, and wished that she had spent her time shopping and enjoying her life as a white person instead. I would not be surprised if she only dated white men.

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  148. @ Peanut

    Asian men don’t scare me the way white men do. if i met an asian guy I would feel more comfortable being with him than a white guy.

    Same here. I get the impression that white women look down on Asian men, even those few that might be attracted to them. Black women don’t give me that vibe, even though they don’t pay as much attention to Asian men as other women.

    Like


  149. @ Peanut

    I’ve seen some black women slam white men for being racist. Black women DO NOT, i repeat DO NOT put white men on any type of pedestal.

    Sometimes I feel that black men take black women’s loyalty for granted. The same applies to Asian women. The way I see it, they place white women/men on a pedestal and if they can’t obtain their prize, they can always count on black women/Asian men to have their backs and will fall back on us when the going gets rough. If only the stereotypes were reversed, they would know how messed up that is.

    For example, I found an article that was written by an Asian woman with a white boyfriend, and in it she defended Asian men. But some commenters pointed out that the only reason she was doing that was because she said that the negative stereotypes of Asian men made it harder for her to date white men in public. Basically, she was fighting Asian male stereotypes not because she cared about Asian men but because she wanted to date white men.

    I found another article written by a black man who only dated white women. He felt sympathy over the negative stereotyping of black women but admitted that he didn’t date them himself. The first half of the article seemed innocent and forthright about internalized racism, but the second half was just mindless praising of white women’s beauty and playing up black women’s faults.

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  150. @ Peanut

    when i said that my friend’s father was swedish and mother Japanese did that bother you?

    No, not really. If I were like that, I would be a neurotic mess by now. I see dozens of Asian women with white men every day. They are in fact the vast majority of interracial couples I see. I admit that it does wear me down if I see too many at a go without seeing any of the reverse pairing. Symbolically, the white-Asian interracial disparity is America’s way of telling Asian men that they are worthless and unwanted.

    I have been conscious of the disparity since I was a young boy. Imagine the millions of Asian American men who have to grow up with that bottled up feeling of rejection, and you begin to see why many Asian men seem to hold themselves back when they grow up. Admittedly, it varies from person to person as some of my Asian male friends aren’t bothered at all even though they’ve seen way worse than me. Some people just don’t see the big picture or care to.

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  151. @ Peanut

    i saw a posting on Facebook today basically begging black men to not take black women for granted

    A difference I’ve noticed is that Asian men can’t complain as loudly about the interracial disparity as black women because then they get labelled as sexists who want to own “their” women. It’s a nasty stereotype of Asian men being sexist patriarchs. I’ve read about Asian women who don’t date Asian men because they say they’re sexist. Ironically, they ended up with white men who were even worse. As it turns out, it’s not that these women don’t want to be abused by Asian men, they just prefer to be abused by white men.

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  152. @ Peanut

    maybe because of stereotypes favoring one gender over the other within the races

    Yup. I just popped open a sales catalogue and all the models obviously were white, with the exception of a couple Asian women thrown in here and there. The reason is simple. White men control the media and happen to like Asian women. Asian men are just pests that get in the way of white men snagging Asian women for themselves.

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  153. @ Peanut

    What really kills me is that Asian women who get with white men are highly rewarded with white privilege. Asian women who go for them know that white men have the most privilege and power. Being light-skinned, model minority women makes it much easier for Asian women to grab a share of white men’s privilege. Asian men don’t gain much privilege by going for white women because white men control white women. Black women don’t gain much privilege by going for white men, either, because black women are too dark and are not seen as model minorities. Unlike Asian women who marry white men, black men especially do not gain a lot of privilege by marrying white women because they are seen as threats.

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  154. @ Peanut

    have you ever stood up to the white men who say these rude things about asian men to their face? or you just let them get away with it?

    All I will say is that Asians in general do not speak up and defend themselves. Many Asians like whites more than they like other Asians.

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  155. @ Abagond

    I found a study which showed that even blind people can be racist. This is evidence of race being a social construct and not just being based on looks.

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/can-a-blind-person-be-a-racist-excerpt/

    Like


  156. I like Judy Chu. She always defends Asian men in the face of racism and cares about them. She is an Asian woman I deeply admire.

    Like


  157. on Tue 5 Aug 2014 at 11:10:12 wordynerdygirl

    @ peanut

    You’re only 25 so you have heaps of time!

    You come across here as being a really sweet person, I’m sure that you will meet someone soon. It’s a cliche but sometimes it’s more likely to happen when you’re not worried about it.

    Like


  158. I will do a post on ISIS this week and one on “Kindred” next week, God willing.

    One on present-day slavery is long overdue, but it depends on what kind of material I can find. Suggestions are welcomed (Thanks Peanut).

    Like


  159. @Kiwi

    I like Judy Chu. She always defends Asian men in the face of racism and cares about them. She is an Asian woman I deeply admire.

    Do you have any links to articles or videos about her? Have you met her?

    The only senior Asian-American female politician I met personally was Elaine Chao. She was so cringetastic. It was only later that I found out that she was married to an Alabama-born white Southerner and had converted to become a Southern Baptist – a background and culture that I know a thing or two about. I also have spent a lot of time in Taiwan and among Taiwanese-Americans in New York.

    Many Taiwanese-Americans became Republican and converted to white christian religions, no?

    I attended Southern Baptist churches when I was a child, but later I learned that split from Northern baptist churches and reinterpreted the Bible to justify Slavery and later Jim Crow, segregating their congregations. Black churches split off. Now I know why I never saw any black person in the congregation of churches that were surrounded by black neighborhoods.

    I also attended Mandarin classes at a Taiwanese church in Maryland for a year and sometimes attended their services. It was my first primary exposure to hundreds of Taiwanese Americans in the same place.

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  160. @Kiwi,

    Regarding your comment above

    I read an Asian guy’s blog, and he described one of the officers in his high school’s Asian club as being a Eurasian girl with a white father (obviously). She was very active, involved, and discussed Asian issues at length. But after a year, she stopped going suddenly.

    I wouldn’t necessarily jump to the conclusion that she all of a sudden threw Asian males under the bus. As a teenager, people experiment navigating all sorts of different identities until they find one they feel comfortable with.

    You know, monoracially identified Asian Americans are not always kind to Eurasians. Some can be downright nasty and mean. It is possible that the high school student mentioned above was challenged repeatedly about her credibility or entitlement in acting as an officer in an Asian-American student organization. Maybe one day she just got fed up with it. There are many possible explanations. But as she was involved in an Asian American organization, she evidently had some interest in it.

    Maybe I can ask you — which do you feel more comfortable in representing Asian-American interests — an Asian woman who normally dates or is married to a white man (And bashes Asian men) or a Eurasian who participates in Asian-American social organizations (ie, outside his family). Or would you throw them both under the bus? Both have some intimate connection to white interests.

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  161. @Kiwi,
    re:

    From what I’ve read, white female expats in Asia lament that all the white male expats are out dating Asian women, leaving them with nobody to date. And they will say this while millions of Asian men pass right under their noses every day.

    I know that we have some commenters who might disagree with that (because their anecdotal experience may differ), but I have lived in Asia continuously for 19 years, and traveled to Asia off and on for 15 years before that and observed quite a bit over almost 35 years. I have also read many articles over the past couple decades about white expat women in Asia and the dating scene.

    They all pretty much say that it is not very good because
    – many white men in Asia pass up white males and go straight for Asian women
    – not too many Asian men in Asia target white women, unless they have extensive experience living in a western country. They have to deal with family pressures and society pressures.
    (I actually think it is easier for Asian-American males to date and marry white women than it is for Asian men in Asia.)
    – most white women in Asia still target white men for dates (but of course there are exceptions).

    I think I might have even read an article or two for tips for white women to meet Asian men in Asia. First of all, they have to get over their hangups about Asian men.

    Besides what I have read, I have witnessed many cases where white men in Asia broke off with their white girlfriends or white wives in Asia and went straight for Asian women. Some cases I know very personally. The white women, especially if they are not still very young and thin start to organize themselves with other white women, or pour themselves into work, and as a result, do not date men that much.

    White men do not nearly have as much problem. I have seen men well into their 60s easily find Asian women to date.

    Of course, my anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but I have been witnessing it for decades now and all the articles I read confirmed my observations. I would love to know of any information or study to the contrary.

    Like


  162. @ jefe

    Another explanation is that white families are okay with seeing their son impregnate an Asian woman but will throw a fit if they see an Asian man impregnate one of their daughters.

    Like


  163. @ jefe

    I have not met Judy Chu, but I would love to.

    She has spoken about the murder of Vincent Chin:

    (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hc-F3FaWl5Q)

    And she has spoken up about the hazing of her nephew, Harry Lew:

    http://thehill.com/policy/defense/217739-after-nephews-death-lawmaker-unsatisfied-with-military-hazing-policies

    We also know that she introduced the apology for the Chinese Exclusion Act in Congress, which mainly affected Asian men.

    http://chu.house.gov/press-release/house-passes-rep-judy-chu’s-resolution-regret-chinese-exclusion-act

    If I were hazed and committed suicide, I doubt my aunt who married a white man would give a damn.

    Like


  164. @ Peanut

    Why not have specials on single Asian men? Only 2-3% of white men marry out. White women will never have to worry about being single. Asian men get screwed most because over 40% of Asian women marry out.

    Like


  165. @ Kiwi:

    How do you feel when you see a white man and an asian woman together? I mean, what is your initial reaction? Dismay? Disgust? Personally, I’ve known some Asian men in my life who have referred to asian women who solely date/marry white men as SOWs (sellout wh0res).

    Like


  166. @Kiwi,

    Another explanation is that white families are okay with seeing their son impregnate an Asian woman but will throw a fit if they see an Asian man impregnate one of their daughters.

    Hey, my Mom was almost disowned by her parents when she got pregnant, but that was many decades ago. At that time, they also panicked when their son brought home an Asian war bride. It is interesting how attitudes have evolved.

    Anyhow, I saw a US cartoon from the early 20th century showing a white woman holding the hand of an Asian man, then giving birth to this “oriental” mongrel alien-looking monster. If I can find it online I will share the link.

    I can share it from an online documentary video if that is OK.

    Like


  167. ^ Sorry, the first paragraph above was confusing.

    Should read
    “Hey, my Mom was almost disowned by her parents when she got pregnant, but that was many decades ago. At that time, white parents also panicked when their son brought home an Asian war bride. It is interesting how attitudes have evolved.”

    Like


  168. @Peanut,

    It is not just white men who break up with their white wife / girlfriend to find a new Asian girlfriend. Asian women also break up with Asian Boyfriends to go out with a white man.

    why they don’t have specials on the media about “why white men go for asian women,” or why white men leave ww for asian women

    The behavior is already seen as “normal” by white males and therefore not that interesting to those who produce white media.

    You should watch / read more media produced Asian American males. This is a big topic for that media segment.

    I am also thinking that one contributing factor is the overwhelming preference for sons in most Asian cultures and 1st/2nd generation Asian American families. I know some women who grew up with that did not want to marry into a family with that attitude, so they think they must avoid Asian men (or unconsciously do so). And Asian parents are less alarmed if their daughters marry out than if their sons do (as they see their daughters as marrying out but their daughters-in-law as marrying in).

    (Please those commenters who think that I am suggesting “all” I never mean “all” when make such comment, maybe not even “most” or “many”.)

    Like


  169. I was just thinking.

    An interesting topic might be the split between white churches and black churches in the USA, esp. the split of the National Baptist Convention off from the Southern Baptist Convention after Reconstruction, as well as the decline in the Southern Baptist church in the past decade (which is attributed to a decline in European immigration). The SBC has tried to revive itself by wooing Hispanics in suburban Texas and by electing a black president, but I don’t think it is going anywhere.

    Maybe we can show the parallel between the decline in SBC membership and the growing weakness of the white Southern strategy of the Republican party.

    Like


  170. @ leigh204

    How do you feel when you see a white man and an asian woman together?

    Honestly? The same way I felt when I was 10. Mostly sadness.

    Before that, I didn’t care as it obviously wasn’t any of my business. In fact, I admired white men and Asian women who married each other. I thought they couldn’t be racist.

    But then I noticed the white-Asian interracial disparity. Then I noticed the opposing media stereotypes of Asian men and Asian women. Then I noticed how white women act towards Asian men. Then I noticed how Asian women act towards Asian men. Then I noticed how white men act towards Asian women. Then I noticed how Asian women act towards white men. Gradually, over many years, I came to the slow realization that there was something very sinister and insidious at play.

    Presently, I also feel a combination of annoyance and pity. By annoyance, I mean that the Asian woman in the relationship could literally walk up to me, slap me, and my mood would not change. By pity, I mean that if her life decision haunts her, then she earned whatever she has coming. She will have to live with that, not me.

    Personally, I’ve known some Asian men in my life who have referred to asian women who solely date/marry white men as SOWs (sellout wh0res).

    They are sellouts, but they are not wh0res. A wh0re is by definition a prostitute, though I bet there are some Asian prostitutes who cater only to white men.

    Like


  171. @ jefe

    Asian women also break up with Asian Boyfriends to go out with a white man.

    Yup. I read about it, too. A white guy in Korea passed by a couple and when the girl saw him, she ran over to the white guy, grabbed his arm, and started flirting with him.

    I’ve learned that just because an Asian woman is with an Asian man doesn’t prove that she isn’t self-hating. Some Asian women are open to dating Asian men but only see them as a second choice to dating white men. There’s actually a spectrum of self-hate. The most extreme cases are the Asian women who exclusively date white men and bash Asian men. Other cases are where the Asian woman will date any race but Asian men. And still, there are those who will date every race but will give a white guy more consideration than an Asian guy of equal attractiveness. Some Asian women are consciously self-hating, as in they choose to be so and know exactly what they’re doing. Some realize it, and if they could start over they would do it again. Yet others realize it and feel remorse and shame. I think most do it unconsciously or subconsciously, which may or may not be innocent. It is never simple.

    If you could invent an operation that could allow an Asian woman to transform herself physically into a white woman, you would be an overnight billionaire.

    Like


  172. on Wed 6 Aug 2014 at 10:16:20 wordynerdygirl

    @ jefe

    I realise your comment re: ‘anecdotal’ evidence was directed at me. Don’t you think that’s a tad hypocritical? Almost every comment I read from both you and Kiwi is based solely or at least partly on your purported experiences.

    The VAST majority of Korean women prefer Korean men. Korean women who date out are a minority. If Kiwi had actually lived there (which I frankly don’t accept) he would be aware of this.

    While some Western beauty standards/racist stereotyping has ‘bled’ into other countries in MY experience Asian men are seen as masculine and attractive by most Asian women in Asia.

    I can only guess that your experience has been limited to countries like the Philippines, Thailand and perhaps to a lesser extent Mainland China. In these countries economic issues obviously have a bearing on dating choices.

    I mentioned before that attitudes are changing here in Australia too. A while back I cited from a study (I linked it too) that showed that the rate of intermarriage is now almost the same for second generation Asian men and women in Australia. This flies in the face of the things you and Kiwi are saying, which suggest that most Asian men are alone, lonely and unattractive to Asian and non-Asian women alike.

    I find much of your comments really interesting and informative but they are also depressing.

    Of course it is important to talk about the continuation of white supremacist attitudes and the very harmful impact that media stereotyping has on perceptions of Asian masculinity.

    But why don’t you ever talk about some of the fantastic role models there are out there like Tony Hsieh for instance? You’re a teacher – don’t you want to inspire and uplift as well as inform??

    I look at my husband and I see a strong, handsome and very successful Asian Australian man. Why not talk about people like that?

    Like


  173. on Wed 6 Aug 2014 at 10:42:14 wordynerdygirl

    Oh, and for the benefit of other readers:

    The only places where you will see a “60 year old’ white man with a young Asian woman are in Thailand and the Philippines and, to a lesser extent, the poorer regions of Mainland China.

    You will NEVER see this scenario in South Korea, Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong or Taiwan. Never.

    Like


  174. @ wordynerdygirl

    It is very common to see old white men with young Asian women in Northern and Southern California. Statistically, the white man/Asian woman pairing has the widest age disparity of any pairing in the US. That I will not relinquish.

    Like


  175. on Wed 6 Aug 2014 at 12:30:16 wordynerdygirl

    @ Kiwi

    Well, then I’d say that the men most likely met the women overseas. You cannot tell me that a young, attractive Asian American woman would hook up with a 60 year old. I can’t suspend my disbelief for that, sorry.

    Like


  176. on Wed 6 Aug 2014 at 12:31:19 wordynerdygirl

    *Oh, and by overseas I meant in countries where the 60 white guy could rely on perceived economic power status to attract women.

    Like


  177. on Wed 6 Aug 2014 at 12:31:33 wordynerdygirl

    *60 year old.

    Like


  178. @ wordynerdygirl

    93…% of White women … did not want to date Asians.

    Asian women were more likely to exclude Asian men (40%) than White men (11%) as possible dates

    Asian females … were approximately 73…% less willing to express a preference to date another Asian

    Source: http://spr.sagepub.com/content/early/2013/10/10/0265407513505925.full

    Like


  179. @ wordynerdygirl

    You cannot tell me that a young, attractive Asian American woman would hook up with a 60 year old.

    You’re right. They just find a white guy who’s closer to their age instead.

    Like


  180. on Wed 6 Aug 2014 at 12:55:38 wordynerdygirl

    @ Kiwi

    Please read my comments. You and Jefe were claiming that Asian women, in Asian countries, prefer white men and will abandon their Asian partners to be with them.

    If you want to post links, post something about that. You can’t, because it’s not true.

    Like


  181. on Wed 6 Aug 2014 at 13:04:11 wordynerdygirl

    Anyway, it’s mostly about economics in my opinion.

    Witness the exponential growth in much older South Korean farmers who are marrying very young Vietnamese brides: (http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21602761-korean-men-are-marrying-foreigners-more-choice-necessity-farmed-out)

    Read the narrative in the article – the South Korean men are looking for a more ‘traditional’, ‘submissive’ bride – sound familiar? This has nothing to do with perceptions of South Korean racial superiority and everything to do with the increasing clout of SK as an economic and cultural power.

    Like


  182. on Wed 6 Aug 2014 at 13:08:18 wordynerdygirl

    Here is another link about this growing trend:

    (http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2011354,00.html) “The Vietnamese woman will be faithful, submissive, between the ages of 18 and 25 and a virgin, the agency promises….”

    Like


  183. on Wed 6 Aug 2014 at 13:10:01 wordynerdygirl

    … sorry, and my comment about it being mostly economics was about marriages between much older men and much younger women.

    Over and out.

    Like


  184. OK, Wordynerdygirl,

    First of all, I want to remind you and everyone that I have always appreciated and welcomed your input and continue to do so. Some of your commentary has been particularly insightful.

    The VAST majority of Korean women prefer Korean men. Korean women who date out are a minority. If Kiwi had actually lived there (which I frankly don’t accept) he would be aware of this.

    While some Western beauty standards/racist stereotyping has ‘bled’ into other countries in MY experience Asian men are seen as masculine and attractive by most Asian women in Asia.

    Although I do not have actual direct experience in South Korea, I do completely agree with you 100% on this. In fact, it is true in most Asian countries. My comment was more about the experience of Asian Americans (re: Asian women breaking up with Asian men and seeking white men), but I have witnessed it sometimes in Asia. Where it is almost “normal” in the USA, it is not the norm in Asia, at least not everywhere, or not quite yet.

    I can only guess that your experience has been limited to countries like the Philippines, Thailand and perhaps to a lesser extent Mainland China.

    Then you guess completely wrong.

    I have studied / taken course in Japan, Taiwan, Malaysia, Hong Kong, Philippines and lived and worked in HK and Japan. I travel very frequently around Asia for work and for pleasure, including all over China (from Xinjiang to Hainan to NE China), HK, Macau, Taiwan, Philippines, Thailand, Malaysia, Vietnam, Singapore, Indonesia.
    In my prior job at an international management consulting firm, I was the global contact in my area of expertise for HK and Taiwan, and also directly assisted my colleagues often in almost all the countries listed above. In my current work, I have to interview workers in all the countries listed above, plus workers from India, Bangladesh, Myanmar, Nepal, etc. I also did volunteer work for many years at the Asian Migrant worker centre in HK, which serves workers from the Philippines, Thailand, Sri Lanka, Indonesia and Nepal.

    I also did volunteer work in Chinatown, Boston serving new immigrants when I was a university student, worked several years in a Chinese restaurant in Virginia whose workers hailed from Mainland China, Cambodia and Vietnam and also worked in a garment factory in New York City Chinatown.

    I have limited experience with South Korea directly, although I did work closely with my colleagues there.

    This takes place well over 3 decades, and I have lived permanently in Asia for over 19 years, most of my adult life.

    I mentioned before that attitudes are changing here in Australia too. A while back I cited from a study (I linked it too) that showed that the rate of intermarriage is now almost the same for second generation Asian men and women in Australia.

    That is GREAT and wonderful news. Do you have any links for that?

    However, if it is indeed true, Australia is one of the few places that can claim that. It certainly is not true in the USA and not true in all the places in Asia that I have been. I have discussed this with people both in and from Australia, and while Australia is progressive in many ways, it still has a way to go. But admittedly, Australia is increasingly visualizing itself as connected to Asia. The USA does not.

    I spent less than a month in Australia, but I know many people from there, have many students from Australia, in daily contact with people who live and work there, and try to watch as much news programs and documentaries from Australia as I can. I subscribe to Australian TV networks. But I am always, happy, willing and eager to learn more.

    I look at my husband and I see a strong, handsome and very successful Asian Australian man. Why not talk about people like that?

    You are in an excellent position to share with us stories about Asian Australian men, better than me. You are welcome to share.

    Oh, and for the benefit of other readers (re Wordynerdygirl’s comment):

    The only places where you will see a “60 year old’ white man with a young Asian woman are in Thailand and the Philippines and, to a lesser extent, the poorer regions of Mainland China.

    You will NEVER see this scenario in South Korea, Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong or Taiwan. Never.

    This is most unequivocally WRONG.

    As I said above, I have scant experience with South Korea, but decades of intimate and extensive experience with the other places and find it SO not the case.

    I will AGREE that it may be more common in the Philippines and Thailand. I don’t agree that it will be that common in poor remote regions of China as there are not too many “mature” white men in those places (I have never seen mature white men in rural remote Yunnan villages or desert cooperatives in Gansu, but maybe there are some). But I have seen it plenty of times in the other places. Less than Philippines or Thailand, but still I have seen it.

    Anecdotal example: I had a prior senior colleague (native of Scotland) at one of the international management consulting firm in Hong Kong who was the Asia Pacific Regional director. He was in his late 50s at the time and had a scandal with a young Asian female. He left to be the Asia Pacific director of a major US investment firm. Again a young Asian women scandal. He went and opened his firm in Singapore (by that time he was past 60) and again, I hear of what happened with young Asian females. Later on, he ended up being my colleague again at another firm and I frequently saw him at expat places with young Asian females. Different ones at different times.

    He was an infamous case, but is not the only one I’ve personally seen or heard about. I heard about it so SO many times that I try to avoid those places where it occurs or where people talk about it. I am sick and tired of seeing mature white men with young Asian females.

    I was also very active on several Hapa / Eurasian discussion forums for over 10 years. A significant minority of the participants had older white fathers and much younger Asian mothers, so I have spoken to a lot of those kids and young adults. Certainly not all, maybe not even most, had mothers from Thailand or the Philipines.

    @Wordynerdygirl,
    When I say “whites”, “Asians”, “blacks”, I never mean ALL, or necessarily even MOST. It means some, or possibly many. I saw in other comments how you object to terms like “whites”, “Asians”, etc. as “intelligent” people interpret that to mean all. I would counter that intelligent people don’t, or at least shouldn’t interpret it that way.

    And if you use all encompassing words like ALL or NEVER in your statements (esp. in CAPS), then people, even intelligent people, may interpret your statement to mean 100% or 0% of the cases. Unless you have actually examined 100% of the cases, it will undermine your credibility to use such all encompassing statements like that.

    I will accept it if you state that you are not aware of cases, or you have not read about such cases, but I don’t see how you can state it doesn’t happen. Your statements (and thus, you) start to lose credibility when you do that. I have extensive experience with both expats and locals and foreign workers in many Asian countries, and interview or teach people, often in their native languages, all across Asia.

    As I said, your insight is always welcome. You add a lot of good stuff to the conversation. But sometimes, and only sometimes, it is a bit hard to take.

    Kiwi sometimes makes seemingly encompassing statements based on limited anecdotal evidence or on something that he read. But I never interpret it as “ALL” or “NEVER”. I know it is based on limited information. But then you condemn such behaviour by others and then do it yourself, using words like “ALL” and “NEVER” which he doesn’t.

    H-m-mh.

    Like


  185. Kiwi:

    My fondest wish is to marry a rich old white man, preferably one with a chronic heart ailment.

    Like


  186. Oh, and he has to have his wits about him in order for the will to be valid.

    Like


  187. @Hernith

    lol that’s terrible.

    Like


  188. bms103

    I am late to respond, but welcome and yes this site can get very interesting. LOL.

    Like


  189. leigh204

    “What are the names of the different performers if you don’t mind me asking?” —I got stuck on Timothy DeLaGhetto videos. This guy is hilarious. I reallu just can’t help it. I put music on hold for a bit.

    “t’s sad, but not uncommon for songs coming from another country to lose their “flavor” once it enters the States. “—I thought I was the only person who noticed that. I thought maybe it was just me who thought they sounded different or were different. Thanks for that information. I had no idea Girls’ generation made it over here. I try to distance myself from American TV as much as possible., so it easily slipped past me. I like that song but the mesh up they did made me cringe.

    Thanks for the other links as well. I figured Psy was not new, but I was not certain. The way people were eating it up made me roll my eyes though. I am not sure how much you know about 2ne1, but this was very dishearting to find: http://www.kpopsurgery.com/nose-job/plastic-surgery-meter-park-bom-2ne1/
    I am not a huge fan of Park Bom, but she is looking creepy. I never knew she was so into plastic surgery until the video falling in love (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEVd9pSG85Q).

    Like


  190. @ Mary

    “Everyone involved in this poor man’s demise needs to loose their jobs and be sued. Racist cretins.”—I agree in full with this statement.

    Like


  191. @ Herneith

    My fondest wish is to marry a rich old white man, preferably one with a chronic heart ailment.

    LOL!

    Like


  192. @lifelearner

    I just started watching the video you posted. So far it seems really good. This tells me that if want to see something worth it start checking through youtube.

    Like


  193. @ MsTooGood,
    Ok, let me know when you are caught up. I need to discuss regarding the new district manager, the new assistant & Janae. I think they got so much going on! The tea, the new restaurant in TN, the one that was suppose to be in TX. Lots to chat about😀

    @Sharina,

    Oh it’s soooo GOOD, let me recommend so more webseries for you,
    Roomiesloversfriends, The UnWritten Rules (being the only woman of color in the office setting-pretty funny) and Awkward Black Girl ( if you haven’t seen it yet).

    I’ve pretty much given up the BoobTube other than Iyanla’s show and Sweetie Pies. I will support Shonda Rimes new series How To Get Away with Murder.

    Like


  194. @ Peanut

    would you feel better if more am started dating ww?

    It’s not about dating whites. It’s about the inequality and the unfairness that underlies the disparity. If equal numbers of Asian men and women dated whites, that wouldn’t solve everything. Natives and Hispanics have no interracial disparity but they still have to deal with internalized racism and members of both sexes dating whites out of self-hate. All it would solve is one aspect of racism, which admittedly is bad enough by itself.

    The issue is not just a numerical disparity. Even if equal numbers of Asian men and women dated whites, a social disparity would still exist. White men are more privileged than white women, so Asian women who date white men would still gain more acceptance than Asian men who date white women. A large portion of nonwhites who date their own race are self-hating anyway, so it follows that an even higher proportion of those who date whites are self-hating.

    It sounds contradictory, but if whites became more open to dating out while nonwhites became less open to doing so, I would feel better. Whites dating out more would be a sign that they are less racist (not free of racism, just less). Nonwhites dating out less would be a sign that they are less self-hating. Unfortunately, the opposite scenario is the reality. Whites are much less willing to date out than nonwhites of every race. Sadder still is how every nonwhite race is more willing to date whites than nonwhites from other races.

    Like


  195. Something I’ve tried recently whenever I see an Asian woman with a white man is direct a warm, beaming smile towards her, as if to express my approval. The ones whose motives are pure will return my geniality and smile back. The ones who are sellouts will avert their gaze and stare downwards, as if in shame. They know who they are.

    Like


  196. As an Asian woman, personally, I didn’t have an interest in dating white men. However, I would be lying if I said I wasn’t curious about what it would be like if I dated non-asian men; not just white. Idk what it is, but I preferred to be with Asian men because I felt we had a connection with being Asian. And that’s even more interesting considering there has been infighting/hostility among different Asians for ages, e.g., Japanese versus Korean or East Asian versus SE Asian.

    I’ve also had a few Asian (Westernized) women wonder why I only dated Asian men and that I should try white men. Try? That made it sound as if I was trying on a shoe or something. No, Asian men will always be in my heart. And that’s why I married my love. Yes, as cheesy as it sounds, it’s true. My feelings for Asian men are strong.

    Like


  197. @ lifelearner

    I love blackandsexy youtube channel. do u watch hello cupid too? roomies lovers and friends is getting good, I bet tamiko is going to find out her dad is dating jay’s ex next episode. I like the couple but they stopped making it and said it will be on hbo. Yes unwritten rules is great, so is their other show everything I did wrong in my 20’s

    Like


  198. @peanut

    I have been wanting to ask you this and I hope this does not come off wrong. Do you feel comfortable dating men of other races and ethnicity?

    Like


  199. @lifelearner

    Thanks for the additional recommendations.

    Like


  200. @ Peanut

    I’ve heard over and over that the Asian interracial disparity is actually reversed in Brazil. You’ll find Asian men dating out of their race all the time there but you’ll almost never see Asian women doing the same. From what I’ve read, I suspect the reason is that Brazil, being a non-Anglo society, hasn’t really picked up on the gendered stereotypes of Asians that we see so often in Anglo countries. I also read that the main reason for the disparity is that white Brazilian men don’t have as much interest in Asian women as white American men do because the media in Brazil doesn’t hyperfeminize Asian women the way the American media does. From what you’ve seen, is any of this true? What do you think is causing this? I would like to know because I think it could help me understand the situation in the US better.

    Like


  201. @ Peanut:

    @ leigh,

    that’s how i used to feel about Black men. I mean, still feel that way. I still feel that I have a stronger bond with them than any other man, but at the same time, I’ve become more open to non-Black men because I feel that I have to…and also the loyalty isn’t reciprocated so I’m done with that. I’ll never exclude Black men or mistreat them based on skin color or anything, I’ll never put white men on a pedestal. I know their privilege is largely inherited at the expense of non-whites, so I don’t have rose-colored glasses when it comes to that. But at the end of the day, I have to do what I have to do. I could end up with a hispanic, arab, white or black guy. who knows?

    I completely understand where you’re coming from. If you find love and have a connection with a person regardless of his background, more power to you. And it’s true. You live for yourself. Your utmost priority is your happiness. You deserve happiness, Peanut.🙂

    Like


  202. @ Sharina:

    leigh204

    “What are the names of the different performers if you don’t mind me asking?” —I got stuck on Timothy DeLaGhetto videos. This guy is hilarious. I reallu just can’t help it. I put music on hold for a bit.

    He’s funny, isn’t he? Due to being a YouTube “celebrity”, he eventually paid off the rest of his parents’ mortgage. I teared up because it’s obvious his parents raised him well.

    “t’s sad, but not uncommon for songs coming from another country to lose their “flavor” once it enters the States. “—I thought I was the only person who noticed that. I thought maybe it was just me who thought they sounded different or were different. Thanks for that information. I had no idea Girls’ generation made it over here. I try to distance myself from American TV as much as possible., so it easily slipped past me. I like that song but the mesh up they did made me cringe.

    Well, I think whoever was in charge with bringing Girls’ Generation to the US, they thought the group would have crossover appeal if they tweaked their songs to suit the American palate. However, their song didn’t translate well for the American audience.

    Thanks for the other links as well. I figured Psy was not new, but I was not certain. The way people were eating it up made me roll my eyes though. I am not sure how much you know about 2ne1, but this was very dishearting to find: http://www.kpopsurgery.com/nose-job/plastic-surgery-meter-park-bom-2ne1/
    I am not a huge fan of Park Bom, but she is looking creepy. I never knew she was so into plastic surgery until the video falling in love (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEVd9pSG85Q).

    Yeah, I heard of 2NE1. They’re one of my favorite K-pop girl bands. One of their singers, Dara Park, actually competed in a tv show in the Philippines before she made it big in the K-pop scene with her group, 2NE1. Btw, I do think it’s sad Dara’s bandmate, Park Bom, went overboard with the surgery. However, it’s not uncommon for singers in the K-pop industry to have plastic surgery. In fact, it’s even expected. Personally, I think Park Bom has one of the best voices in K-pop music. Here she is in an audition. She already did plastic surgery at that point. She should’ve stopped there because she still appeared normal looking. Now, she looks so plastic.

    (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHK2vhMO72w)

    Like


  203. @Sharina- no problem

    @Abagond- a post on Renisha McBride and the surprising verdict given the track record of the US judicial system? I wonder what the make up of the jurors with a judgement of GUILTY!

    @MsTooGood- I just know of the ones above re: webseries. I will need to subscribe to Black&Sexy channel. RoomiesLverFrnds going to HBO ooh, I’ll have to look out for that. The 20s show, I haven’t seen it yet. Thanks for the recs.

    Like


  204. @ Peanut

    Does the black interracial disparity exist in Brazil, too?

    Like


  205. @ Peanut

    Thank you for your comments!

    I’m pretty sure the Asian interracial disparity is reversed in Brazil when compared to the US. If you look at Wikipedia’s article for Japanese Brazilians, for example, almost all of the example images show mixed Brazilians with Japanese last names, which means they have Asian fathers, not white ones like in the US. I’ve also read about how the situation for Asian men in Brazil is much better as opposed to in the US, where it’s better for Asian women. This is anecdotal, but I knew a white Brazilian guy who made comments about Asian women that really convinced me that he was not attracted to them (flat asses, no breasts). It caught me by surprise because I’ve never heard a white American man talk that way about them. Usually, they’re very attracted to them, even in a racist way like many of the white men on this blog.

    Also I’ve heard in Europe Asian men do well also because there isn’t the same media representation. The media in the US and the west in general is very racist, you step outside the US and it’s different.

    I thought the people in Europe were very racist when I lived there, but I think you have a point. White Europeans looked down on me for being Asian, but I didn’t really get much of the impression that they looked down on me for being an Asian male, which I get a lot of in the US. I also read about how Asian male international students in Denmark and other countries would all be dating the local women, which is amazing considering that white American women will never be caught dead dating an Asian male FOB. However, I still think Asian men have it worse than Asian women in Europe, especially in English-speaking countries like the UK, since Hollywood and other American media can diffuse there more easily due to the shared language. I’ve also read that the Asian interracial disparity exists in Europe, just as it does in the US, even though it might not be as severe.

    What I find most fascinating is how the media is such a powerful instrument for shaping how people see others, especially when it comes to race and sex. This is evident in how Asian men and black women are seen so differently in countries where the media and culture doesn’t desexualize them so religiously, as they are in the Anglo world.

    Like


  206. @ Peanut

    I find it ironic that white people love to tout Asians as the “model minority” and point at their success to bash non-Asian minorities, yet at the same time they would be repulsed by the thought of sleeping with an Asian man. What gives? I know. White supremacy.

    Like


  207. leigh204

    He is funny and the mere fact that he does not have his own tv show or something on mainstream says a lot about the media. I talked with someone the other day about the lack of creativity in our mainstream media. For example this new rise of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and super hero movies in general. All of that has been done and yet a new year brings a new mesh up of it. Yet here on youtube you are finding some of the best tv shows and comedians you have seen in a long time. I have been asking….what is wrong with this picture? And they wonder why more and more people are opting for just internet instead of cable.

    I loved that he paid off his parents house. That was soooo sweet.

    “However, their song didn’t translate well for the American audience.”—They didn’t and I have asked myself…what is wrong with it still being in the original language. Psy did his song in Korean and it passed through just fine.

    Love Dara Park. My favorite use to be Minzy but I have realized that I love the group as a whole.

    “However, it’s not uncommon for singers in the K-pop industry to have plastic surgery.”—I had no idea it was such a problem. In most of the Kpop girls groups I really can’t tell. I really had no idea that Park Bom was even doing plastic surgery until that video came out and I said “ What! Is going on with her!” She didn’t need it. I imagine most girls who get it just don’t need it. A kdrama I use to watch (secretly still do) pointed out some of the plastic surgery issues, but because it was not major I just attributed to rich kids. The kdrama is called boys over flowers.

    Like


  208. Peanut

    My preferences has always leaned towards Asian and Hispanic men so in some things I say it might seem like I am boasting them, but with them I would go for it. If you know an area that is highly concentrated with Asian or Hispanic men that have had a large interaction with people of all races, I have found that they seem to careless about marrying white women and seem to be more open to dating and marrying black women. Where I live I see a nice mix of Hispanic and Black or Asian and black mixtures.

    If you really really want a black man then I highly suggest looking for one out of the country. Ethiopian men men are a good start (don’t give up on finding one of them) and I had a friend of mine from Africa that was looking, but we have greatly lost touch, so I would not be able to recommend him.

    Regardless of all that. I just hope you find someone that makes you happy, but don’t give up either. Perhaps he might jump out at you ans surprise you when you least expect it.

    If all else fails and you do end up with a white man, there is nothing wrong with introducing him to how white supremacy works as it is all likely he has no idea.

    Like


  209. @ Sharina

    If all else fails and you do end up with a white man, there is nothing wrong with introducing him to how white supremacy works as it is all likely he has no idea.

    For white men who date black women, that might work, but I doubt it would work for white men who date Asian women. White men don’t lose any privilege by being with an Asian woman, unlike white men who are with black women. In fact, Asian women are more likely to reinforce their white male partner’s sense of racial superiority than to challenge it. All the white male commenters on this blog who have Asian female partners have made this very clear by their blindness to their own privilege and their disdain for nonwhites. I am actually inclined to believe that white men who marry Asian women are more racist than ones who don’t.

    Like


  210. @ Sharina

    I think it really says something when the same study that shows half of white men would date an Asian women also shows that nearly none of them would date a black woman.

    over 90% of White heterosexual men…exclude Blacks when selecting romantic partners; … 53% of White…males did not want to date Asians,

    Source: spr.sagepub.com/content/early/2013/10/10/0265407513505925.full

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  211. ^^^
    Non-functional link

    Source: http://spr.sagepub.com/content/early/2013/10/10/0265407513505925.full

    White men’s racial preferences reflect their actual dating and marriage patterns.

    Abagond said:

    Even though an eighth of American women are black, fewer than one married white man in 400 has a black wife! That cannot be an accident. Compare that to how many have Asian wives: about one in 100 – even though there are way fewer Asian women.

    There are 4 times as many white men with Asian women than white men with black women, even though there are 2.5 times as many black women than Asian women. That multiplies out to a disparity of 10 fold. Looking at the data, if about 50% of white men are willing to date Asian women, but only about 5% are willing to date black women, that also comes out to a factor of 10. I think that’s no coincidence.

    Like


  212. Um… Some white people made an app to help white people avoid black neighbourhoods.

    This is so fecking moronic it’s embarrassing.

    http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/08/08/these-white-people-just-made-an-app-for-avoiding-black-neighborhoods/

    Like


  213. Kiwi

    Do you have any theories on why Asian women do this? Why are they so willing to reinforce this racial superiority rather than challenge this? And from your experience have you met many Asian women with white partners that have or are willing to? Also (and I know I am asking a ton of questions) do Asian women who date white men shame Asian women who date or choose Asian men as partners?

    Thanks for the link. Although the numbers were disheartening they were not shocking.

    A friend of mine said a white man came up to her and said she was beautiful. He then followed up by saying his wife thought she was beautiful as well. He ended up propositioning her to make an arrangement with him and his wife. I wonder what the stats would be in regards to white men sexually exploiting black women.

    Like


  214. @ Sharina

    There’s no such thing as too many questions. I think the reason many Asian women support white men is manifold. The first is that in general, (East) Asians have lighter skin than other nonwhites. America is not only racist, but also colorist. Even if a person is not white, them having light skin means they will be favored over someone with dark skin. The second is that Asians are seen as model minorities. Model minorities are not considered a threat to the racial status quo and are viewed as embracing and supporting it, rather than rocking the boat. The third is that Asians are stereotyped as feminine, which is in opposition to blacks, who are seen as masculine. This means Asian women are more desirable to white men than black women. The fourth is that white men have male privilege, unlike white women. Racial biases that augment white men’s sexual opportunities are favored whereas white women are penalized severely for dating out of their race.

    Asian women, at least in terms of race, are more accepted than any other minority group in America. Asian women are seen as the least threatening to white men’s power, so white men do not penalize each other for dating or marrying them. White men retain almost all their white privilege if they are with an Asian, which means that they are able to confer much of that privilege onto their wives. This is in contrast to white men who are with black women or white women who are with nonwhite men. Those whites lose a lot of their privilege for dating out and thus may feel discouraged from doing so. Asian women internalize many of the notions I mentioned above, whether at a conscious or subconscious level. Unlike all other minorities, Asian women have nothing to lose and everything to gain by hooking up with a white man. The only thing they would have to give up is their conscience and if they have any sons who look Asian, those boys will pay the ultimate price (eg: Elliot Rodger).

    And from your experience have you met many Asian women with white partners that have or are willing to [reinforce this racial superiority rather than challenge this]?

    I’ve met many Asian women who looked down on me for being an Asian male. Most were not explicit. But you can always pick up on subtle cues, which when laid out together, point at self-hatred. Examples include laptop backgrounds that only show white male actors, dating histories that include only white men, a circle of friends that is nearly all white, thinly veiled contempt when interacting with Asian men or other nonwhites, resentful/bitter glares towards Asian men when out with white boyfriends, better-than-thou smirks at Asian men when out with white boyfriends, smiling along when a white husband insults and mocks Asians, criticizing nonwhites while praising whites, dying their hair blonde or brunette, getting eyelid surgery to remove their epicanthic fold, moving into a white neighborhood, mocking Asian men and emasculating them, stating they’re not attracted to Asian men, etc. etc. I could go on if more comes to mind. I’ve seen it all.

    I wonder what the stats would be in regards to white men sexually exploiting black women.

    I have no idea about the stats, but I’ve noticed that while black women are desexualized similarly to Asian men, Asian men are the only minority group that is completely desexualized. Black women are simultaneously hypersexualized by the Jezebel stereotype. This comes back to how white men are in control. Anything that favors their sexual opportunities will be bolstered, even if the nonwhite women in questions are disparaged in other ways. Nonwhite men are seen either as threats or nuisances.

    Like


  215. correction: even if the nonwhite women in question are disparaged

    Like


  216. @ Sharina

    do Asian women who date white men shame Asian women who date or choose Asian men as partners?

    I can’t answer because I’m not an Asian woman nor have I ever dated Asian men, but leigh204 has already answered this question:

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/open-thread/#comment-245507

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/open-thread/#comment-246882

    Like


  217. @ Peanut

    I said:

    “smiling along when a white husband insults and mocks Asians”

    You said:

    maybe it’s a nervous smile because they don’t know how to react or maybe they disagree and are afraid to say it.

    That’s not what I saw. In any case, it speaks volumes when someone is married to a person like that. You are judged by the company you keep.

    white men and black women have a terrible history in the US compared to Asian women.

    Maybe not in the US. But if you look in East Asia, America has a long history of waging wars there, which included white American GIs being serviced by Asian prostitutes.

    In this link: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/04/10/where-are-you-really-from/#comment-228360

    I said:

    American imperialism in East Asia can be framed as an analogue to the modern day fetish that white men often have for East Asian women. In the white male psychology, the conquest of “nonwhite” countries is embodied in the conquest of nonwhite women. In this case, East Asian countries and East Asian women are objects over which white dominion is imposed. For example, I read an Asian fetish forum frequented by old white men, and one of the fetishists was a Vietnam War veteran who had had sex with 50-60 Vietnamese prostitutes.

    Also: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/05/03/the-term-asian/#comment-231166

    fact more African-Americans have DNA from european males than they do from european females

    most of the mixed-race children of black and white ancestry came from white men and black women

    Same goes for Asian Americans. More of them have DNA/ancestry from white men than from white women. It comes down to white patriarchy. White men are allowed to have their way with nonwhite women but nonwhite men are not even allowed so much as to look at “their” women (e.g.: Emmett Till).

    some Black men are ashamed of Black women largely because of how white men view us and treat us and some Black men actually begin to imitate the behavior of white men when it comes to Black women

    You will find the same exact behavior among Asian women: some Asian women are ashamed of Asian men largely because of how white women view us and treat us and some Asian women actually begin to imitate the behavior of white women when it comes to Asian men.

    I posted an ad on craigslist once seeking out a man for romantic relationship as an experiment and the number of white penises that ended up in my inbox was astounding.

    That stuff happens to Asian women, too, when they get bombarded by messages from men with Yellow Fever. As we know, there’s a lot more of them than men with Jungle Fever.

    does part of you feel some pride ever that the beauty of asian women is appreciated at least?

    I don’t feel any more pride in Asian women being “appreciated” than you feel pride in black men being “appreciated”. This “appreciation” is too often a racist objectification of Asian women that is contingent upon them submitting to white men’s authority. The submission of Asian women to white men is not a reciprocation to Asian men’s pride in Asian women. It is done out of spite and contempt for their own race. I have no pride in Asian women being fetishized by white men nor do I have any pride in Asian women reciprocating their racist infatuation.

    Like


  218. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_WHGV5bejk)
    Sepultura – Territory [OFFICIAL VIDEO]

    Like


  219. @ Peanut

    Do you know any Black men who don’t date Black women? What is your take on those men?

    I don’t think I’ve met black guys like that and if I did I couldn’t tell, but of course I’ve read tons about them. Most of the black guys I knew were either single or married to black women. If I did meet a black guy who badmouthed black women, I probably would ask him something along the lines of, “Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?”

    I can relate to what you said about feeling like some spite is directed at you by aw with white men because I had an incident a couple of weeks ago where I was on the bus and this Black man and white woman (who was on the heavier side) got on. They sat in front of me and as soon as they did, I thought to myself “I hope this isn’t going to be the scenario where they assume that I’m going to be jealous of them so they try to incite some anger on my part?” I didn’t want to bring this scenario up, but I can’t resist. I know that some ww/bm definitely get off on thinking that Black women are jealous of them…so I mind my business and sure enough, he puts his arm around her and kisses her, then turns around and glares at me…with a little smirk on his face.

    I didn’t do anything, I was just polite and minded my business, but obviously he was getting off on THINKING that I would maybe glare back or have an issue with him. I can’t stand that. I wasn’t even thinking about them until he decided to “put on a show,” and glare at me.

    You know, this scenario you just described happens to me ALL THE TIME. I know exactly how you feel, from the awkwardness, to the tenseness, to the feeling of uneasiness. I try to look away and act like they’re not there, but the Asian woman will grab her (usually ugly) white boyfriend, slobber all over him, and giggle.

    Then on top of that some Black men are ALWAYS making magical excuses for why they ONLY date non-Black women. I CAN’T STAND LYING. Just be honest…if you exclusively date ANYTHING but Black women, just admit that you’re brainwashed…I mean it’s okay…it is what it is, you can continue to date whomever you want, but don’t lie and be delusional and pretend just magically you just happened TO ONLY have a preference for non-black women or magically you just ONLY happen to just “fall in love,” with non-black women COME ON!!! Just be honest, you’re brainwashed you’re gonna date and associate with non-black women exclusively BECAUSE you’re brainwashed, deep inside you probably hate being Black so just own it…own it and move on…keep doing what you do, but stop being delusional and lying.

    “Then on top of that some Asian women are ALWAYS making magical excuses for why they ONLY date non-Asian men. I CAN’T STAND LYING. Just be honest…if you exclusively date ANYTHING but Asian men, just admit that you’re brainwashed…I mean it’s okay…it is what it is, you can continue to date whomever you want, but don’t lie and be delusional and pretend just magically you just happened TO ONLY have a preference for non-Asian men or magically you just ONLY happen to just “fall in love,” with non-Asian men COME ON!!! Just be honest, you’re brainwashed you’re gonna date and associate with non-Asian men exclusively BECAUSE you’re brainwashed, deep inside you probably hate being Asian so just own it…own it and move on…keep doing what you do, but stop being delusional and lying.”

    I was literally going to type all that before you beat me to it.

    it hurts more when Black men betray Black women than when white men just slam black women…I expect and am mostly annoyed more than hurt by white men who slam Black women

    Same here, though I’d say white men seem to slam Asian men more than white women do. Online, I find that white men talk a lot more about Asian men’s penises (small penis stereotype) than white women do, despite them thinking of themselves as being manlier and despite them supposedly being heterosexual. But that’s to be expected from them, anyway, because they’re white. Asian women should know better and thus have no excuse, but many of them will jump right in the Asian male bashing bandwagon along with white men. They deserve each other.

    i’m tired of people appropriate things from Black women and then simultaneously degrading us for doing the very thing they appropriate

    Do you understand what I’m saying??

    I know what you’re saying. An Asian guy who does martial arts is a funny little ch*nk. Let’s all laugh at him! *makes karate chop, kung fu sounds* A white guy who does martial arts is so hot and is da bomb. All the girls, both white and Asian, are lining up to get in bed with him!

    Asian women are viewed as beautiful pretty much by all ethnicities of men at least in the West.

    I actually had a conversation with my grandmother once about this and she said that it’s because lots of white men (and others) see all Asian women as the same and can’t tell them apart. As a result, they think they’re all pretty, even the ugly ones. I’ve seen some white guys with unattractive Asian girls, but the reverse is more common. Usually, it’s the white guy who is a varying combination of old, fat, ugly, or bald. Basically, what even a white woman wouldn’t touch with a pole.

    Like


  220. @ peanut

    people bring black women into everything, one time I was looking up a cake recipe and somehow black women got brought up, like wtf does a black woman have to do with a cake. Men do find black women attractive, online is full of haters, but in life I see average looking black women getting attractive men. personality is important, forget what the media and the brainwashed black folks say.

    People crave our approval whether they admit it or not, it is part of the reason the black males that date interracially will look at u and try to see if u are mad, they are looking for the slightest “attitude” from u to prove they are right. They are immature, and would rather live in another man’s house than go build their own. These are the ones that will demand folks to build or give them something even if it of less quality instead of making their own .They would rather lighten up their kids as much as possible so they won’t have to deal with the side effects of blackness, instead of challenging the system that causes the anti blackness.

    The black men like Malcolm x are few and far between in this generation, there are some that appreciate black women but will not stand up for whatever reason. Parents dropped the ball imo, they expect their daughters to be smart, pretty, feminine, etc, but for their sons they just expect them to play sports, make money, do well enough in school. These sons grow up and have no pride and have a selfish instant gratification mentality. so no they will not be out there fighting the power, shoot a lot of them won’t even stand up for themselves.

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  221. Unlike Asian women, black men cannot assimilate into whiteness. Black men are perceived as the most threatening, so they have little to gain in the way of white privilege by marrying a white woman. An Asian woman who marries a white man gains nearly all the privileges of being a white person, in addition to her spouse not losing any of his.

    Black men who abandon black women will probably get what they had coming. Asian women who abandon Asian men, however, will reap the rewards of whiteness.

    Like


  222. @ King

    That happened a long time ago in California. Hispanics alone make up the majority of the state’s K-12 student body. What’s more interesting, though, is how many of them will be assimilated as whites.

    Like


  223. @King,

    Yes, a few years ago they mentioned that non-Hispanic whites made up less than 1/2 of all babies being born nationwide. Now they say that non-Hispanic whites make up less than 1/2 of all public school students. In a few years, they will say that non-Hispanic whites make up less than 50% of all university students nationwide, which will make the Ivy League look real bad, as an elite institution primarily for whites.

    It harkens to the fear surrounding the nativist and Yellow Peril scares of the 19th century, the influx of non-English speaking European immigrants 100 years ago, the mid 20th century Great Migrations followed by white flight, all suggesting that white Anglo-Americans are “losing” their country to someone else.

    I advocate a more realistic and inclusive sort of education, which also permits students to develop their unique heritages as well, instead of forcing them into the same white anglo cookie cutter mold, internalizing hatred toward the pieces that don’t fit the mold. I need to read more about Duncan Arne’s plans. Do you have a good link handy?

    @Kiwi,

    Which gets me down to you.

    California is not unique or the first to deal with non-Hispanic minority classrooms. 100 years ago, many states in the South were majority black. Even today, we have Hawaii, New Mexico, DC, Texas, and soon to come Maryland and Georgia. But historically, each place and each era has dealt with it differently. I do want to ask you about California.

    150 years ago, German immigrants came in large numbers. Some German schools were set up in the USA in areas that had a lot of German immigrants (making German the 2nd language of the USA in the late 19th century). But their children just decided to send their kids to the Anglo schools, they intermarried, and now it has been lost, absorbed mostly into Anglo culture and communities.

    100 years ago, Northern and Midwestern cities had large recent influxes of immigrants from Eastern and southern Europe. But the education idea was to make the children white Americans as soon as possible. They were taught to spurn their family cultures and become “American”. After WWII, that is exactly what they did.

    At the same time, blacks from majority black districts in the South were taught nothing about their history. The colored schools received hand-me-down textbooks from the white schools, and was not even in session as long as the white schools. They made no attempt to gear the education system for them. Perhaps the schools only felt they needed to learn very basic reading and arithmetic and cared less if they learned anything besides white history.

    50-60 years ago, the urban areas of the North, Midwest and West received millions during the Great Migration, which was followed by the civil rights movement and white flight. Suddenly classrooms in those areas became majority non-white. The Civil Rights era taught educators that the books had been overly white focused, but the method used to diversify the materials was “tokenism”. Selecting a few blacks and Native Americans to be heroes, or learning the history of “Kwanzaa”. But this was largely selected by whites, and it had to be consistent with all of the “white is right” and “America is right” theme. Asian American history was not included at all, including no “heroes” even those selected by whites.

    Starting 30-50 years ago, Mexican-Americans have been reclaiming the SW (of which California is a part) and southern Florida has largely been reclaimed by Cuba and the Caribbean. The response by whites/ anglos was to remove their history out of the curriculum, forcing them to identify with white Anglo-American history and culture. This is basically the approach taken towards educating Native Americans.

    I get the impression that California has never added relevant Asian-American history to their curriculum. Is that true? Chinese, Japanese and Filipinos have a rich history in California, and Chinese and Filipinos have been settling in California since the 1580s, but their entire history is left out of the curriculum, except for a few token tidbits (e.g., the railroad and possibly the Japanese-American internment).

    Couple questions:
    1. Do you think that the model adopted in California will become the model for the rest of the Country? if so, then we might expect the “Expansion of Whiteness” model.

    2. How do you think it will play out in Maryland, where blacks outnumber both Asians and Hispanics and already outnumber whites many of its districts? MD is the next state to become minority-majority, probably by 2020, and Asian and Latino ratio are also higher there than the Nation as a whole. Well, I suppose we have DC as an example.

    3. Do you think there will be a movement to change the education model as state by state becomes minority-majority?

    4. Do you think that whites will care less and less about what is being taught to non-whites? (Not that they care that much now anyhow). I suspect that we might see growing movements to force homogenization in the name of making the country more cohesive, e.g.,
    – colour-blind racism
    – omission of any history that does not support the “white is right” mentality. Any non-white image will be one selected by whites and promoted by whites.
    (e.g., GW Carver, Booker T., MLK, Jr. are OK, Frederick Douglass, WEB DuBois and Malcolm X are not.)

    Like


  224. @Peanut,

    Who said I was mad at you?

    Like


  225. I was not mad at you. I just was wondering why you needed to ask certain personal questions that I had addressed previously in order to engage in discussion. But I see that you wish to have personal discussions. I’m not mad, it is just sometimes I feel forced to give answers to certain questions.

    B.R. is mad at just about everyone. Or maybe he is just simply *MAD*.

    Like


  226. @ Peanut

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/open-thread/#comment-247269

    The video said, “Overall, users tended to date within their own race, with the exception of Asian women.”

    Asian women are not even attracted to their own men.

    Like


  227. B.R. is mad at just about everyone. Or maybe he is just simply *MAD*.

    LOL! I think he’s at the age where senile dementia sets in.

    Like


  228. @ All

    No one is under any obligation to answer any personal question. As it is, some people say too much and then wind up asking me to delete all their comments on the site.

    Like


  229. @ Sharina:

    leigh204

    He is funny and the mere fact that he does not have his own tv show or something on mainstream says a lot about the media. I talked with someone the other day about the lack of creativity in our mainstream media. For example this new rise of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and super hero movies in general. All of that has been done and yet a new year brings a new mesh up of it. Yet here on youtube you are finding some of the best tv shows and comedians you have seen in a long time. I have been asking….what is wrong with this picture? And they wonder why more and more people are opting for just internet instead of cable.

    You know what I find laughable? That Hollywood remade Asian movies that have already been done. It’s as if it’s not good enough as it is so they change it. I’m just happy YouTube exists to showcase extremely talented non-white performers that I’d probably never see on tv or movies. However, it’s a d*mn shame that many of them will never get their big break because they don’t have that mass appeal. You know what I’m talking about.

    I loved that he paid off his parents house. That was soooo sweet.

    I know! It was so touching. However, I’m not actually surprised. It’s probably an Asian thing to help out your family members in some way. I know my mom (may she RIP) put her younger siblings through university.

    “However, their song didn’t translate well for the American audience.”—They didn’t and I have asked myself…what is wrong with it still being in the original language. Psy did his song in Korean and it passed through just fine.

    I think Girls Generation or SNSD as they’re called in South Korea wanted to make it more appealing to Westerners. And that’s kind of funny when you think about it because Kpop is more popular to non-Koreans than ever.

    Love Dara Park. My favorite use to be Minzy but I have realized that I love the group as a whole.

    “However, it’s not uncommon for singers in the K-pop industry to have plastic surgery.”—I had no idea it was such a problem. In most of the Kpop girls groups I really can’t tell. I really had no idea that Park Bom was even doing plastic surgery until that video came out and I said “ What! Is going on with her!” She didn’t need it. I imagine most girls who get it just don’t need it. A kdrama I use to watch (secretly still do) pointed out some of the plastic surgery issues, but because it was not major I just attributed to rich kids.

    Getting your face done in South Korea is quite routine especially eyelid surgeries. While it may cost several thousands in the US, it’s usually less than a thousand in Korea. Some high school girls get it done as a graduation present. Btw, the Korean esthetic is very narrow as you can already tell by the kind of look they go for over there. Big eyes, small face, narrow chin, etc. However, I will say this. A lot of the surgeries taking place in South Korea are actually non-Koreans who go there for the medical tourism.

    The kdrama is called boys over flowers.

    I love Boys Over Flowers! All the women I know (who happened to be Asian) drooled over lead actor Lee Min Ho. He’s cute, but there are cuter Korean celebrities imho.

    Like


  230. @ Peanut

    I like chatting with you on here Kiwi. you’re my new blog friend!🙂

    Thanks! You’re easy to get along with. That’s a nice quality in a person.

    also asian men picked Black women last as well. So even with the similarity in our dating struggles, Asian men still don’t like Black women.

    That’s true, but none of the Asian guys I’ve known who say they don’t like black women seem to be bothered by the Asian interracial disparity. They seem to think of it as “natural”. I even had an Asian guy tell me once that Asian men are naturally unattractive and that he couldn’t blame Asian women for not wanting them. I mean, wow! I used to buy the notion that Asian men were just not attractive but I was always bothered by it. I never simply accepted it as “just the way things were” as other people have.

    Black women, in contrast, preferred Asian men over white men.🙂

    I’m actually not sure about that. I’ve found studies that contradict that. According to the one below, black women were just as racist as white women were towards Asian women. Hispanic women were less racist than the other two, but still more so than towards other men.

    African-American women said yes about 30 percent less often to Hispanic men; about 45 percent less often to white men; about 65 percent less often to Asian men.

    White women said yes about 30 percent less often to black or Hispanic men, and about 65 percent less often to Asian men.

    Hispanic women said yes about 20 percent less often to black or white men, and 50 percent less often to Asian men.

    Asian women didn’t discriminate much by race (except for showing a very slight preference for Asian men over black or Hispanic men).

    Source: http://tierneylab.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/04/13/single-female-seeking-same-race-male/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

    Like


  231. ^^^

    Correction: black women were just as racist as white women were towards Asian men, not women

    Like


  232. @ Peanut

    I noticed.

    Like


  233. Has anyone been interested in that story of the Thai surrogate who took in a Down Syndrome child after his parents from Australia abandoned him? THe Australian couple denied it and said they wanted to take him. FYI, the father is a convicted pedophile sex offender! He looks really old, too, but he’s only 56. The Asian wife, I read somewhere she’s originally from China, met him online and eventually married him. I must find that link! Anyway, it makes me wonder if this was before or after she learned he had a lengthy history of sexually abusing young girls? Sickening. Just sickening all around. I feel so sorry for the poor baby brought into this mess.

    Like


  234. @Peanut

    Have to be careful about sharing too much personal information here. Some commenters use that to browbeat others. In fact, your friend B.R. is one of the offenders. In particular, he likes to rub salt into some scars that covered wounds from some severe childhood traumas. Abagond already banned BR and Bulanik from talking to each other. I didn’t want to get to that stage, but there are certain commenters that one just should not engage with.

    If it is of any interest to you, one of the persons I use as a reference is Russell Wong, esp. since he starred in the movie “Eat a Bowl of Tea” (recommend that you see it if you haven’t seen it yet). He is someone in the similar generation as me, child of Chinese father and white mother who divorced, about the same height and size as me. When he came on the scene, it became easier for people to relate to me as there was another image that people were aware of and could relate to, esp. in the 1990s. The black ladies that my mother used to work with would say stuff to her like “I watched your son on TV last night again” (They were talking about Vanishing Son). It makes it easier for strangers to relate if there is a famous person that they have an image of. My mother kept my father’s Chinese (paper) surname and her coworkers had met me.
    They did not associate Russell Wong with my brother, whom they saw more often.

    Speaking of Vanishing Son, one of the actors Chi Muoi Lo wrote and starred in a movie “Catfish in Black Bean Sauce”, about a Vietnamese brother and sister pair adopted and raised in a black American family. I have not seen it yet. It might be interesting
    Trailer: (http://youtu.be/0-QTyVUc2RY)
    It is rare to see films which feature primarily a combination Asian and Black cast featuring very few whites (the main non-black non-Asian character is Native American) as well as romantic relationships between Asian men and black women. The dialogue features Asians and Blacks talking with each other about other Asians and Blacks and not about whites. I wonder if that satisfies Abagond’s Bechdel Test on race.

    And Speaking of Russell Wong again, one of the other things that I learned about him 25 years ago was the daughter that he had with a black American women, and he was a reference on that too. Before information was available on the internet, I only saw one photo of him with his daughter back in the 90s in a magazine. She is the most famous example that I know of a Eurasian father and a black mother.
    Here a profile of his daughter when she entered college:
    (http://fp.academic.venturacollege.edu/womensbasketball/07-08_VC_WBB/Profiles/Eja_Wong.htm)

    Like


  235. Peanut,

    My previous comment is in moderation (and I think I know why), but here is something else for you.

    “Dragon of Love” (http://youtu.be/ckGFc3cTHA8)

    Just have to make sure that Asian male / Black female fantasies don’t become some kind of stereotype fetish.

    Like


  236. Hi Leigh,

    Yes, I’ve been following it very closely – it’s been a page 1 story in Australia for a couple of weeks now.

    The so-called ‘parents’ did a confessional interview last night. The father of poor little baby Gammy was possibly the least believable interviewee I’ve ever seen.

    Here are a few clips/links:

    (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-10/baby-gammy-father-denies-threat-to-twin/5661242)

    (http://www.smh.com.au/world/david-and-wendy-farnell-demanded-refund-for-gammy-20140810-102kpn.html)

    (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/opinion/crocodile-tears-from-couple-over-baby-gammy-on-60-minutes/story-fni0fhie-1227019847211)

    Like


  237. @ Jefe

    “Abagond already banned BR and Bulanik from talking to each other.”

    What are you talking about?

    No, Jefe. It was not “mutual”.

    I asked Abagond to remind BR (as I asked asked, told and insisted that he stop) not to follow or refer to me.

    You obviously missed what was going on as well, didn’t you?

    Like


  238. If you have a moment, Jefe: give a thought to how, and why, THAT happened.

    Like


  239. @ leigh204

    Has anyone been interested in that story of the Thai surrogate who took in a Down Syndrome child after his parents from Australia abandoned him? THe Australian couple denied it and said they wanted to take him. FYI, the father is a convicted pedophile sex offender! He looks really old, too, but he’s only 56. The Asian wife, I read somewhere she’s originally from China, met him online and eventually married him. I must find that link! Anyway, it makes me wonder if this was before or after she learned he had a lengthy history of sexually abusing young girls? Sickening. Just sickening all around. I feel so sorry for the poor baby brought into this mess.

    A mess, for sure.
    When that story first broke, it was bad enough, and then with every following revelation, one by one, it got worse and worse…

    @ Wordy, thank you for those clips.

    Like


  240. @ Jefe

    Just have to make sure that Asian male / Black female fantasies don’t become some kind of stereotype fetish.

    There certainly doesn’t have to be any stereotype or fetish nonsense at all.

    I would have also liked very much to chat more about black women and Asian men, and mixed-race black women and Eurasian men — because this reflects my parents and most of my relatives and their relationships.
    There are some things I would have liked to say to Kiwi and you, also Peanut.

    But this is not the environment to do it in.

    Like


  241. anyone keeping an eye on STL?

    Like


  242. @Bulanik,

    I was thinking of the post that Abagond made a while back about which pairs of people would have their posts deleted if they addressed each other. He did not say who did what.

    I think a lot of the interchange got deleted after you requested. I hope I did not suggest something misleading. I never meant to imply it was mutual. Knowing how BR operates, I am sure the request was in one direction.

    BR almost got to the point where I was going to request the same of Abagond. He did something to me that I thought was 30-40 years behind me.

    You know, I am not sure I want to talk about such hateful depressing things

    Like


  243. @ Jefe

    It was not mutual.

    I wish I had been listened to.

    Like


  244. Jefe, understood.
    neither of us wanted to experience the hateful and depressing here, either.

    Like


  245. @ jefe

    Indians mistaking other Indians for Chinese:
    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8slrzCK4g8)

    Like


  246. @ Jefe

    There’s an exhibit at the Smithonian Institute that focuses on ” he experiences of Indians in America and features an in-depth exploration of the heritage, daily experience, and numerous, diverse contributions that Indian immigrants and Indian Americans have made to shaping the United States.”

    One aspect the exhibition covers is immigration.
    Starting in the 1800s:

    “…as India struggled to survive under British colonial rule, the first wave of Indian immigrants came to the U.S. in search of political and personal freedom.
    Specifically, in the late 1800s and early 1900s, farmers from Punjab, oppressed by British taxation and restrictions on land ownership, settled along the American West Coast. They worked alongside Chinese immigrants in lumber mills and iron factories and on railroads to support the nation’s industrial boom.
    Meanwhile, peddlers from West Bengal, capitalizing on the American desire for “Oriental” goods such as silk and spices, set up shop along the Eastern seaboard. Indian seamen, eager to escape the boiling engine rooms of British steamers, began jumping ship in New York and Baltimore…”

    I had never heard of such a thing, have you?
    I wonder if John Jung has also looked at this?

    http://www.festival.si.edu/2014/beyond-bollywood-indian-american-experience/

    Like


  247. @Peanut,

    Of course, I know Rae Dawn Chong (Chinese-European father, African, Native, European mother) and her adopted brother Marcus Chong who is allegedly of black / Asian descent also. How could I forget?

    My niece just had a baby with a man who is black, Native, white mixture and decided recently to get engaged. I think we will see more and more quadriracial people in the next generation (not that we haven’t been having that all along).

    The whole thing about phenotypes and racial and ethnic identity between parents and children and between siblings is a complicated subject, and not all of it is pretty. Russell Wong already is multiracial;, his daughter’s mother probably is also. But people will try to impose racial identities on his daughter and others as well. Then they try to beat everything else out of them. Until that gets fixed, parents should plan and manage for it. But even the best of plans get messed up.

    You know which ethnic / racial groups voiced the most opposition towards the adoption of a multiracial identity?

    Like


  248. @Bulanik,

    Thank you for sharing that.

    I know that there was a Chinese Historical Society of America which was founded in San Francisco in 1863 (I stopped there to visit on my last trip to SF), and the Museum of Chinese in America, which opened in 1980, but was just moved to a larger space in 2009. I think I saw the old one (which was very tiny) back in the 1980s, but have not seen the new one. I will definitely check it out when I get back.

    Anyhow, my point was
    – you don’t see the relationship depicted in these museums between Chinese Americans and other groups, except for whites. So the history relating Chinese Americans to blacks, Indian Americans, Native Americans, just gets omitted and erased.
    – I am not aware of any Museum of Indian American in the USA. Are you? In fact the link you provided says it is ” The exhibition is the first major national exhibit to focus on the experiences of Indians in America”. Wow. Asian Indians have been in the USA for centuries, but started coming in significant numbers in the 1890s. but there history has not been recorded well or shared with the public. (I suspect that some were brought in during reconstruction, but not called Indians.)

    – The Smithsonian has a Museum of American history, which is basically about white American history. The Smithsonian also has the Anacostia Community Museum for African-American culture, the National Museum of African American History and Culture on the National Mall and the National Museum of the American Indian on the National Mall. There is no national museum for Asian America, so we should not be surprised that they are holding the first major exhibition on Indian America in the “Museum of National History”.

    – In all fairness, although the Smithsonian has no Museum of Asian America, there is a Smithsonian Asian Pacific American Center (est. 1997), which was responsible for putting this Indian-American exhibition together. That center is headed by Konrad Ng, Obama’s brother-in-law.
    (www.smithsonianapa.org/)

    The exhibit you mentioned has a blog:
    (http://smithsonianapa.org/beyondbollywood/blog/)

    Like


  249. Is that the National Museum of African American History and Culture (NMAAHC) that’s being built, Peanut?

    http://nmaahc.si.edu/

    Like


  250. I’ve heard of the Charles Wright Museum, and am aware of at least 24 museums devoted to the history and culture of African Americans across the USA. The one in DC sounds like the first national one.

    Like


  251. @ Jefe

    I am not aware of any Museum of Indian American in the USA. Are you?

    No. Nothing.

    Like


  252. @ Jefe

    Whilst reading your reply to the comment about a history of African Americans dressing as Indians (in turbans) to bypass Jim Crow laws, I had a closer look one of my earlier links, the South Asian American Digital Archive:
    (https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/04/16/bhagat-singh-thind/#comment-247430)

    That Archive is pretty interesting. There are some photos of Hindus that settled in San Francisco over a century ago, plus pamphlets on why they were excluded or “too brunette” to vote!
    http://www.saadigitalarchive.org/search/asian/period/1680-1923

    Like


  253. My eldest daughter shared this link with me on FB.

    Wow.

    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogCbwU4KGEY)

    Like


  254. I would like to have one (1) more child, maybe…

    Like


  255. How many kids do you have, V8?

    Like


  256. Rest in peace MIke Brown another young black man senselessly murder by policeman. Rest in peace to comedian Robin Williams. I loved him he was very funny. My heart is heavy today.

    Like


  257. Yes, RIP Robin Williams. I loved him too, had tears in my eyes when I read the news on Twitter. He always seemed like a very compassionate soul.

    Sorry to hear about Mike Brown too, it hasn’t hit the news here yet unfortunately.

    Like


  258. I had no idea Robin Williams was dead. I’m sorry to hear that.

    Like


  259. @ wordynerdygirl:

    Hi Leigh,

    Yes, I’ve been following it very closely – it’s been a page 1 story in Australia for a couple of weeks now.

    The so-called ‘parents’ did a confessional interview last night. The father of poor little baby Gammy was possibly the least believable interviewee I’ve ever seen.

    Here are a few clips/links:

    Thank you so much for the links! However, I couldn’t finish watching the clips all the way through without getting a sick feeling in my stomach. There’s something “off” about David Farnell when he said, “I come home from work some days and Wendy has dressed our little girl all in blue, because she wants, still to remember, the little boy.” The little boy? How odd for Mr. Farnell to refer to his son, Gammy, in that manner. And my gosh! Twenty-two convictions for sexually abusing minor girls! It’s no wonder this Mr. Farnell and his wife went abroad for surrogacy. Who in their right mind would allow him to have children in his care? It speaks volumes that he took off with his daughter while his son was left behind in Thailand. Ugh. *smh*

    Like


  260. @ leigh204

    The little boy? How odd for Mr. Farnell to refer to his son, Gammy, in that manner.

    White men tend to see Asian males as pests, so that may have played a part.

    It speaks volumes that he took off with his daughter while his son was left behind in Thailand.

    White men prefer Asian females over Asian males. Girls are more easy to sexually abuse/appropriate, as indicated by Mr. Farnell’s history of pedophilia with girls. His choice of an Asian wife speaks volumes as well.

    While Down Syndrome was the main reason the couple left behind their son, I doubt either of the two were dissatisfied that it was the son who had the disorder instead of the daughter.

    Like


  261. Abagond: I am new here, so I may have missed your posting about this…Have you read “King Leopold’s Ghost”? I highly recommend it.
    namaste

    Like


  262. @ Kiwi:

    @ leigh204

    The little boy? How odd for Mr. Farnell to refer to his son, Gammy, in that manner.

    White men tend to see Asian males as pests, so that may have played a part.

    Yes, it’s possible, but I was thinking along the lines of David Farnell having a disconnect with his biological son due to his choice of words. I’m referring to the way Farnell said, “The little boy” rather than “OUR little boy” as if Gammy was a stranger.

    Like


  263. @Bulanik,
    Just saw your video about the Indians mistaking other Indians as Chinese and then mixing up further “Oh you’re Japanese? ‘Gracias'”.

    India and China are such huge countries, you will see all sorts of things.

    Like


  264. I wonder if they will still keep the Anacostia Community museum after the NMAAHC is opened.

    I would like to visit the Smithsonian again, this time with a more discerning eye. I sometimes miss a few things about Washington, DC.New York too. At least those are the two places I go to mostly when I visit the USA.

    Like


  265. @ Peanut

    What is your request?

    Like


  266. @ jefe:

    @Peanut

    Have to be careful about sharing too much personal information here. Some commenters use that to browbeat others. In fact, your friend B.R. is one of the offenders. In particular, he likes to rub salt into some scars that covered wounds from some severe childhood traumas. Abagond already banned BR and Bulanik from talking to each other. I didn’t want to get to that stage, but there are certain commenters that one just should not engage with.

    Yes, you’re correct. Some regular commenters as well as anonymous commenters will take potshots at you if you reveal too much information. I only know this too well. I had talked about my mom’s cancer and her eventual passing on here and some character vehemently disagreed with me on a particular topic, and he made a reference to my mother being underground and essentially, being worm food. Wow. And recently, another person took it upon himself to attack my appearance and my husband because of what I said in another thread. Sometimes, there are sad, pathetic souls out there who try to get the best of you.

    Like


  267. @ Sharina

    Thanks for the Mike Brown link. Extremely pro-police, but not surprising coming from the New York Times.

    Like


  268. @ gj

    Have not yet read “King Leopold’s Ghost”, though I have heard it was good. Thanks for the recommendation.

    Like


  269. My favorite Robin Williams movie is “What Dreams May Come” That is an excellent film.

    Like


  270. @ leigh204

    I had talked about my mom’s cancer and her eventual passing on here and some character vehemently disagreed with me on a particular topic, and he made a reference to my mother being underground and essentially, being worm food.

    You must be talking about duckduckgoofs. I showed you a link before explaining that he came back as a sock puppet twice, for a total of three bannings. His other two accounts were Churchs Chicken and Da Jokah.

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/11/11/the-black-illegitimacy-argument/#comment-229594

    He should be back any day now, but it’ll be very easy to tell who he is.

    Like


  271. @Peanut:

    @ leigh

    for someone to speak of your mother that way is just crazy and to attack your appearance is a low blog. you’re a pretty woman any way. I hope Abagond banned that person.

    Gosh, it’s been over two and a half years. If I recall, the person who talked smacked about my mother wasn’t banned, but his comment was deleted by Abagond.

    @ Kiwi:

    Kiwi

    @ leigh204

    I had talked about my mom’s cancer and her eventual passing on here and some character vehemently disagreed with me on a particular topic, and he made a reference to my mother being underground and essentially, being worm food.

    You must be talking about duckduckgoofs. I showed you a link before explaining that he came back as a sock puppet twice, for a total of three bannings. His other two accounts were Churchs Chicken and Da Jokah.

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/11/11/the-black-illegitimacy-argument/#comment-229594

    He should be back any day now, but it’ll be very easy to tell who he is.

    It could very well have been duckduckgoofs. In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised. This person must’ve read what I wrote because he seemed to know when my mother died. However, I honestly don’t remember the commenter’s name, but I can’t forget the despicable comment made about my dearly beloved mother. You can’t forget disgusting sh*t like that.

    Like


  272. @ Pumpkin formerly known as Peanut:

    Why the change from Peanut to Pumpkin?😎

    Like


  273. @ Pumpkin (formerly Peanut)

    Peanuts and pumpkins are both delicious.

    ———-

    I have something I want to share with you.

    Did you want to share here or by email?

    Like


  274. Here’s my own bit of perspective on Michael Brown and the police response to the protests.

    http://macklyons.blogspot.com/2014/08/this-is-what-domestic-terrorism-looks.html

    Like


  275. @ Pumpkin:

    @ leigh,

    I wanted a change. I also changed my avatar in case you noticed.

    Indeed, I did. Nice avatar.😀 Hmm. Sometimes, I feel like I want to change my name, too, but I’ve been leigh204 for so long so I don’t know if I should even bother.😎

    Like


  276. omg dyfs or cps whatever they’re called now called me up today my ex-wife got a new case and ‘people are calling about her all the time’…
    i really gotta get my shit together

    Like


  277. @Abagond: Another young black man shot in Los Angeles. Ezell Ford shot in the back by cops while lying down on the ground.

    Like


  278. @ Pumpkin

    I can do that. Should Abagond exchange our emails?

    Like


  279. @ Abagond

    As if on cue, I think Da Jokah/Churchs Chicken/duckduckgoofs is finally back. His new alter ego is Big Momma, which just as I thought, is yet another ludicrous anti-black moniker. Watch out.

    Like


  280. In my neck of the woods, there’s an annual multicultural festival called Folklorama. Many countries showcase their culture through food, arts, and entertainment. One of my longtime friends is a production dance coordinator and her dance troupe is amazing! They’re called Magdaragat which means Voyagers of the sea. I’m so proud of all their hard work. Anyway, I just wanted to share with you aspects of my Philippine culture.

    https://www.facebook.com/MagdaragatPhilippinesInc

    Please check out the video section on Facebook. You’ll see some of the cultural dances on there. I hope you guys will enjoy it.

    Like


  281. @ Pumpkin

    I sent Kiwi your email address.

    Like


  282. I don’t feel as upset as I used to be whenever I see an Asian woman with a white man. I just pretend she’s a white woman (which she probably is, in her heart and mind) and the pain dissipates instantly. For that matter, I no longer regard my two aunts who married white men as Asians. They are white because that is the path they chose. I do not consider them my family anymore. Saying this, I feel at peace for the first time in my life about the Asian interracial disparity.

    Like


  283. @ Pumpkin

    Try Livy.

    Like


  284. @Pumpkin:

    For a rollicking good read, try Suetonius, ‘The Twelve Caesar’.

    Like


  285. We should definitely have a BW/AM post. It’s about time.

    Like


  286. @leigh204

    Sorry it has taken me so long to respond. School is starting up and things have been crazy.

    “That Hollywood remade Asian movies that have already been done. It’s as if it’s not good enough as it is so they change it. I’m just happy YouTube exists to showcase extremely talented non-white performers that I’d probably never see on tv or movies. However, it’s a d*mn shame that many of them will never get their big break because they don’t have that mass appeal. You know what I’m talking about.”—I agree. One of my favorite horror movies so happen to be Ju-on. Annoyed when they remade it, called it The Grudge, brought in a bunch of white characters, and made it confusing. I am thankful for youtube as well, but those individuals on youtube deserve a huge break.

    “I know my mom (may she RIP) put her younger siblings through university.”—Wow. I admire that. I am sure she worked very hard to do that. Your mom sounds pretty amazing.

    “All the women I know (who happened to be Asian) drooled over lead actor Lee Min Ho”—I know what you mean. He annoyed me in Boys over Flowers but he grew on me. I notice him more than I notice other male actors in the Korean Dramas. My favorite female actor is Yoon Eun Hye. I love everything she is in. I have not watched Kdramas in awhile, so if you have any new ones to recommend then let me know.

    Like


  287. @Abagond: I don’t know if you would be interested in this but a post about Robin Williams and mental illness. I just got a revelation and an epiphany, the brain is just like any other part of the body that gets diseased. I will in the future have empathy and sympathy for those suffering. Robin Williams was such a talented and gifted man, yet he was suffering and to later learn he also had Parkinson’s disease. I am feeling very heavy in my heart. I enjoyed him as an entertainmer. May he rest in peace.

    Like


  288. *entertainer*

    Like


  289. @ Pumpkin

    You mean you don’t feel like she is part of your cultural family anymore?

    It’s hard to put in words. Culture is not the same as race and my race is not my family. I think who we choose to keep us company is a reflection of who we are deep down, especially when we plan on spending the rest of our lives with that person, like in marriage. Julie Chen, Margaret Cho, Amy Tan, Amy Chua, Maxine Hong Kingston, and many other Asian women like them would probably disagree vehemently if one were to accuse them of being ashamed of their own race. They would point to their contributions and claim that they are indeed proud of their own race. Maybe some of them are. But after hearing about legions upon legions of Asian women who all “happened” to marry white men, yet somehow still manage to be “proud” of their race, one can not help but notice a pattern. Why not walk the talk, instead of just talking the talk? Actions speak louder than words. And Asian women who choose white men have spoken loudly and clearly. I hear them, and they are saying to Asian men, “We reject you.”

    It is high time that Asian men rejected them, too. After all, the feeling is mutual. They do not want to be Asian, so they are not Asian. I will not regard them as such. They don’t need us, either. An Asian woman and her kids will have better opportunities in life if she chooses a white husband than if she chooses an equivalent Asian husband. Who can blame her?

    Like


  290. @Kiwi

    That’s kind of strange that u would think Asian women dating white men are rejecting Asians like they actually wake up and vow to never date/marry an Asian guy again. Now I’m sure some do I actually no two Asian girls who do not like Asian guys and prefer white guys but I don’t think it’s necessarily hateful.

    Like


  291. @pumpkin

    Lol hell no! I’m black and female. Pretty young too. I just found myself disagreeing with Kiwi based on my own experience.

    Like


  292. @ Pumpkin

    would you feel the same way if say…an asian woman was with a hispanic man or black man or is it salt added to the wound if he’s white because of white supremacy/racism etc…?

    Sad to say, white men are not the only race of men who have Asian fetish or racist attitudes towards Asians. The online dating app study found that every race of men except for Asian men had a preference for Asian women. I’ve seen nonwhite men mock their Asian girlfriend’s race and I already mentioned before that some Asian women might date any race except for their own. But for some reason, it doesn’t bother me as much when I see an Asian woman with a nonwhite man. There just isn’t the same social dynamic at play, even if the Asian woman is self-hating or if the nonwhite boyfriend is racist towards Asians.

    @ Curiosity

    Now I’m sure some do I actually no two Asian girls who do not like Asian guys and prefer white guys but I don’t think it’s necessarily hateful.

    First off, I did not use the word “hate”. Now look at it this way. Have you ever noticed how there are many more black men dating white women as opposed to black women dating white men? What if you knew a couple black guys who don’t like black girls and prefer white girls? Sure, it’s not necessarily “hateful”, but it’s still wrong and most importantly, it’s racist.

    Like


  293. I actually know two Asian girls who do not like Asian guys and prefer white guys

    Here’s how I think about it. If I had a son and if these two Asian females were teachers, I would not want my son to be a student in either of their classes. Similarly, if these two Asian girls were babysitters, you bet I would never hire them as babysitters for my son.

    Like


  294. @ Curiosity

    I actually know two Asian girls who do not like Asian guys and prefer white guys

    Here’s a thought experiment. Imagine one of these Asian girls grows up, finds a white guy she likes (while rejecting tons of quality Asian guys along the way), and marries him. They have a son. He looks a lot like his mother and in fact looks completely Asian, which is the case in many families. And no, the mother never cheated on her husband. Their son grows up into a teenager and one day, he musters the courage to ask out an Asian girl that he has had a crush on for years. She turns him down. Then she tells him that she doesn’t like Asian guys and that she prefers white guys. The boy is devastated. Later that day, he comes home crying and tells his mother what happened. She cannot empathize with her son and simply repeats what the Asian girl said. She, too, does not like Asian men and prefers white men. That’s why she married her husband. The boy’s father agrees. He doesn’t like Asian men, either, but admits he likes Asian women. As a younger man, he had only dated Asian girls. Growing up, both of the boy’s parents had expressed their disdain for Asian men and considered them to be ugly. Also, neither of his parents likes black people. All of their friends are white, including the mother’s.

    Now how do you feel about racism?

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  295. @Kiwi
    Sorry if I misinterpreted your words. By hateful I meant racist as in I don’t think an Asian woman or any woman for that matter is necessarily racist for like white men or any other race of men. And I see your point when you say that Asian women by internalizing racism end up supporting white supremacy and continuing that cycle when they have half white half Asian children. I think that’s horrible and something that can be seen among blacks and other races as well.

    However I don’t think racial preferences are necessarily racist because I for example find mainly white men to be attractive even though I am black. I honestly don’t have any hate or disgust towards black men I just don’t find them ugly or attractive. I am completely neutral. I don’t think white men are better or superior I just find them attractive guys like Chris Evans Robert Downey Jr. and so on. So that’s why I said I don’t think a racial preference is automatically racist. It’s only racist if u refuse to give a nice guy a chance because of his race like a black girl I knew who ONLY and I mean ONLY concerned herself with Asian guys.

    Like


  296. @ Curiosity

    I see what you mean. I’m most bothered by people who put down members of the opposite sex within their race, especially when they say they “prefer” whites. What I was getting at is that, too often, people’s racial “preferences” fall right in line with mainstream society’s prejudices and racist stereotypes. So whenever I hear about an Asian girl complaining that she doesn’t like Asian men and is only attracted to white men for the zillionth time, I roll my eyes and think, “What makes her so special? She’s just another in a long line of self-hating Asian women.” The saddest part is when they make the same, tired excuses that all the others have made before yet still think they’re so original (Asian men are sexist, ugly, small, blah blah, but white men are the bestest. white guys+Asian girls forevar! <3) There are literally hordes of Asian girls chasing white guys, but you don't see them rushing to hook up with black guys. Why not? Oh, right. Blacks don't fit the white beauty ideal promoted by our society.

    a black girl I knew who ONLY and I mean ONLY concerned herself with Asian guys.

    If this girl had a lot of bad things to say about black guys, I definitely would not date her and might even rebuke her for that. Similarly, if she used the N-word in front of me, as I’ve seen some attractive black girls do, that would be an instant turnoff.

    Like


  297. @Kiwi

    One of the Asian girls I mentioned were like what you described. Her comments on Asian men made me uncomfortable because not only did she seem kind of disgusted by them but her own aunt said to avoid them. The other one was more iffy she liked some Italian guy said she didn’t really like Asian guys. However she didn’t convey to me at least that she would never date one in her life.

    I feel like people bash the opposite sex of their own race to justify their attraction to other races. I think sometimes there’s a secret guilt they feel the need to relieve themselves of and make themselves feel better by painting all women or men of their race as lazy, sexist, ugly etc. I felt really guilty about my attraction to white guys and still do to a lesser extent. But I would never ever claim that white men r better than black men like some bw do. It’s just plain insane and low.

    If your attracted to another race so what. Don’t treat other memeber a of your race like crap though to defend it because it’s not only wrong but implies that perhaps you have self hatred deep within yourself.

    Like


  298. Kiwi,

    I was going to share a personal story about this Taiwanese girl I knew in the USA that completely wrote off Asian men and shared that with me. Maybe I get around to it some time.

    Needless to say, I think there is this huge psychological issue with modern day Asian American women. I cannot dismiss that there isn’t some internalized self-hatred. There may be some racial politics involved too – the woman often wants to join and participate in the white society.

    Also, when I was growing up, my father used to put down Asian women a lot. But he softened a bit when he hit middle age and my mother broke up with him.

    Like


  299. @ jefe

    I think there is this huge psychological issue with modern day Asian American women.

    That’s an understatement. The thing that drives me nuts about discussing the interracial disparity is that the blame mainly seems to be directed towards Asian men for feeling resentful about it rather than towards Asian women for perpetrating it. I read an Asian American psychology textbook that made a bigger deal about how Asian men felt about the issue than about how Asian women enable it, as if Asian men are at fault but Asian women are blameless.

    Here’s how I see it. White men are no help because the disparity works in their favor. White women are no help because they don’t want to date Asian men. Asian women are no help because they don’t want to date Asian men. Black men have no dog in the fight. Besides Asian men, black women are the most understanding since the black-white interracial disparity cuts against them, too. But that’s the ultimate irony. Black women understand this Asian issue better than Asian women do. Ideally, it should not have to be that way, but it is. It’s possible that with respect to the interracial disparity, Asian men understand black women better than black men do. When black women talk about the issue, the most common response by black men I’ve seen is defensiveness, not unlike the way Asian women get defensive when Asian men talk about the issue.

    Like


  300. @ jefe

    One time, I was on a thread about Asian fetish, where a couple Asian women were complaining about white male Asiaphiles they had dated. They were relating their creepy experiences to each other when an Asian man remarked how amazing it was that these two were discussing dating as if Asian men didn’t exist (in the context of the conversation, it was obvious the Asian girls never dated Asian men). One of the Asian girls snapped that she could date whoever she wanted (translation: only white men). I noticed she didn’t contradict the guy’s comment or say she dated Asian men, like a wrongly accused person would have. She just got defensive, as if implying admitted guilt.

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  301. @ Jefe:

    Needless to say, I think there is this huge psychological issue with modern day Asian American women. I cannot dismiss that there isn’t some internalized self-hatred. There may be some racial politics involved too – the woman often wants to join and participate in the white society.

    Interesting. Sometimes, I do wonder why I turned out the way I did compared to some AAW. I know my upbringing had a lot to do with it. I was made very racially aware at a young age. I think the only thing I wasn’t prepared for was the eye pulling gestures. Compared to other family members and relatives, my eyes were much smaller. Most Filipinos have larger, double-lidded eyes. So imagine my shock when my eyes were constantly mocked for looking typically “Asian”.

    Another thing, I grew up in a predominantly white environment. I clearly remember my parents telling me to be with Asian men because we understand each other better. While they preferred I date/marry Filipino men because we shared a common culture and all, they were happy I dated other Asian men.

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  302. @ Leigh, Jefe, Kiwi

    What about dating among different Asian groups?
    And particularly, how do East and Southeast Asians perceive South Asians as mates or dating partners? The latter are fewer in number and, generally, more recent in Canada and the USA, so I am curious what you’ve observed.

    @ Kiwi

    I’d be particularly interested to know your outlook on this, in view of what we touched on before, namely about perceptions of South Asians being dark-skinned in comparison to Asians who are lighter-skinned
    (I am only assuming you remember which conversation I mean, but I think I can find the conversation if you don’t recall it.)

    Like


  303. @ Leigh

    ….I clearly remember my parents telling me to be with Asian men because we understand each other better. While they preferred I date/marry Filipino men because we shared a common culture and all, they were happy I dated other Asian men.

    The part about “understanding each other” makes sense. No issue there.
    But what if you were from a multi-racial family, what then? What if one parent was from a family of different Asians, and your mother was mixed-race/black — who would “understand” you in that case?
    Would it be other, similarly “mixed” people?

    Like


  304. @ Bulanik:

    @ Leigh, Jefe, Kiwi

    What about dating among different Asian groups?

    I can only speak for myself, but as I mentioned earlier, my parents’ ideal would have been another Filipino (man). And eventually, I ended up marrying a non-Filipino. From personal experience, one of my Korean ex’s mom was far from pleased, in fact, she was furious, her son was dating me. She even said he might as well have been dating a black girl. Wth? Sorry to say, but East Asians look down on Southeast Asians. I’m sure she had a smug smile when her son and I broke up.

    And particularly, how do East and Southeast Asians perceive South Asians as mates or dating partners? The latter are fewer in number and, generally, more recent in Canada and the USA, so I am curious what you’ve observed.

    Again, I can only speak for myself, but I find Southeast Asians particularly Filipinos more receptive to dating South Asians. When Asians of various extractions started becoming more visible in my neck of the woods, I have met quite a few part East Indian and part Filipinos. And they happen to be all female for some reason!

    The part about “understanding each other” makes sense. No issue there.
    But what if you were from a multi-racial family, what then? What if one parent was from a family of different Asians, and your mother was mixed-race/black — who would “understand” you in that case?
    Would it be other, similarly “mixed” people?

    Hmm. That is a very good question. I also have a number of bi- and multi-racial relatives on my mom’s side of the family. I kid you not when I say, the small percentage of Filipino blood that they have, they are more readily accepted. Most Filipinos, that I know, don’t care whether you’re half this or a quarter that. If you have some Filipino in you, you’re considered Filipino. I don’t know if that makes any sense, but that’s my explanation.

    Like


  305. @ Bulanik

    @ Leigh, Jefe, Kiwi

    What about dating among different Asian groups?
    And particularly, how do East and Southeast Asians perceive South Asians as mates or dating partners? The latter are fewer in number and, generally, more recent in Canada and the USA, so I am curious what you’ve observed.

    @ Kiwi

    I’d be particularly interested to know your outlook on this, in view of what we touched on before, namely about perceptions of South Asians being dark-skinned in comparison to Asians who are lighter-skinned
    (I am only assuming you remember which conversation I mean, but I think I can find the conversation if you don’t recall it.)

    I can definitely answer this. I grew up in an area that has many South Asians, in addition to East Asians and whites. East Asians and Southeast Asians born and raised in the US generally don’t make much of a fuss over different East Asian or Southeast Asian ethnicities. East Asians and Southeast Asians are all just “Asians”. South Asians are usually not even regarded as “South Asians”. They’re often referred to as just “Indians”. What I find most fascinating is that among East Asians and Southeast Asian who grew up in America, nobody really pays too much attention to distinctions between ethnicities, whereas our own families who immigrated from Asia identify only with members of their ethnicity and may even look down on other Asian ethnicities that their own kids identify with racially. For example, my parents aren’t fond of Vietnamese or Japanese, but many of my friends were Vietnamese and Japanese, and our ethnicity was never an issue. Instead, we were more conscious of being Asian.

    Interestingly, the East Asian interracial disparity applies just as much to nonwhites as it does to whites. East Asian women are far more likely to date other nonwhite groups, including blacks, Hispanics, and South Asians, than East Asian men are to date them. I am curious as to why this is. Possible reasons include Asian fetish being ubiquitous to both white and nonwhite men, internalized racism causing East Asian women to not be attracted to their own race, East Asian men preferring their own race more, and internalized racism causing East Asian men to be afraid of dating out and to stick to their own. I think it is a mix of many factors.

    There is indisputably a bias against darker people among East Asians and Southeast Asians. I have observed this among many East Asian families and Southeast Asian families, including my own. But this is common to South Asian, Arab, and Persian families as well. It is taken for granted that within their respective societies, lighter people look down on darker people. However, South Asians are seen by East Asians and everyone else as being distinct from blacks and Hispanics, considering that the Model Minority stereotype applies to South Asians just as much as it does to East Asians. Knowing East Asians, I always had the impression that the women were more racist than the men, because many are openly repulsed by dark-skinned men. This is reflected in real life. Almost all East Asian women that I have ever seen dating out were with white men, though they are still paradoxically more likely to date other nonwhites than East Asian men are.

    To my own surprise, OkCupid’s dating stats showed that East Asian men are not as racist against South Asian women as I thought they would be. They are looked upon rather favorably. Instead, it was South Asian women who were the most racist against East Asian men, more so than all other races of women.

    Based on what I’ve observed, South Asian men are more likely to date other races than South Asian women. According to the stats I found, South Asians are the only group that defies the interracial disparity common to all Asian American ethnicities. All other groups of Asian women are more likely to date out than the men. On top of that, South Asians were least likely to date out at all. From talking to strangers and people I knew, this is due to arranged marriages being popular among South Asians, where the women especially are pressured to stay within their own culture. This could explain why the men are more likely to date out, unlike all other Asian men.

    All that said, whenever I go to an East Asian or Southeast Asian restaurant, garden, or other Asian-themed space, 90% of the time, there will be at least one or two white men there with their Asian wives or girlfriends and zero of the reverse. Nearly all mixed white-Asian people I have ever known had white fathers. As an Asian male, it feels like a slap to the face. As for other nonwhite men with Asian women, I very rarely see that. The vast majority of interracial couples I have ever seen or known consisted of white men and Asian women. The first wedding I attended was of a white man and an Asian woman, complete with the groom’s many white male friends and their Asian girlfriends in attendance. It felt like spit in my face when the bride told me she was happy I came.

    Like


  306. @ Peanut

    I read in a book that actually Black women were the group LEAST likely to disown their sons or daughters for marrying outside their race, WE ARE THE MOST ACCEPTING.

    I think it’s amazing that despite the negative stereotyping of black women, the majority of black Americans’ white and Asian ancestry comes from black women having kids with men of other races. Albeit, much of the white ancestry came from slave rape.

    Like


  307. @kiwi

    I read an Asian American psychology textbook that made a bigger deal about how Asian men felt about the issue than about how Asian women enable it, as if Asian men are at fault but Asian women are blameless.

    written by an Asian American woman married to a white man no doubt?

    In any case, it is amazing how much Asian American women who date and marry white men understand the Asian American male psyche.
    NOT.

    Like


  308. @Pumpkin

    I don’t like to think of myself as brainwashed because I always prided myself in refusing to conform. I want to stand out and do my own thing. But I always figured my attraction to white men had a lot to do with media.

    Even though I don’t watch tv much I do watch a lot of movies and many of them r superhero movies like Iron Man Avengers Thor etc with white superheroes who save the day or villains that destroy everything. I didn’t really feel so attracted to white men until seeing a number of movies. First it was Tom Hiddleston as the evil Loki then Chris Evans as Capitian America Brad Pitt in World War Z and Robert Downey Jr as Iron Man

    All 4 were alike in many ways. All men were white obviously but more importantly they were confident,noble (except Loki but he did start off as a simple trickster) and had overcome many obstacles.

    However Captian America resonates deeply with me partly because of his looks but courage and refusal to succumb to anger and pessimism. He still keeps that foolish optimism and kindness towards everyone despite the pain and losses he has suffered. Hes obviously meant to show he greatness of America ending corruption saving the day but I don’t see him as a representation of America but a outstanding individual in his own right with his own setbacks.

    In contrast black men are usually not portrayed as gloriously even if they r not thugs or cons etc in media. Their just the average joy nothing spectacular about them. Just boring or dull. No great selflessness no charm in the media. Either a thug or sidekick to a white guy serving his interests and his alone for better or worse. I find it pathetic and laughable in a bitter sort of way. Of course this is not the case in real life you have subservient white guys and leading black men but so often in media that’s not the case. And if the the black guy is leading he is usually a bit old and not as attractive *cough Samuel L. Jackson*

    Like


  309. @ jefe

    I said:

    I read an Asian American psychology textbook that made a bigger deal about how Asian men felt about the issue [white-Asian interracial disparity] than about how Asian women enable it, as if Asian men are at fault but Asian women are blameless.

    You said:

    written by an Asian American woman married to a white man no doubt?

    Just to see if you were right, I went back to check and TADA, you were right.

    Here she is: http://apahenational.org/?page_id=418

    Her name is Christine C. Iijima Hall, so she’s obviously married to a white man. (Let’s not pretend she would consider a black guy.) She also must have kept her Japanese last name to hide her cognitive dissonance and to show that she’s still “proud to be Japanese” when she chose a white husband, just like how Julie Chen is still “proud to be Chinese” when she got eye surgery to look “less Asian”.

    To be fair, the book was written by both Asian men and Asian women, and the section Mrs. Hall wrote was on Asian American women. (Though she couldn’t help but take a jab at Asian men.) Thankfully, the section on Asian American men was written by Asian men.

    I linked to the book before here: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/05/01/welcome-to-asian-american-history-month/#comment-231536

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  310. @ Curiosity

    I don’t like to think of myself as brainwashed because I always prided myself in refusing to conform. I want to stand out and do my own thing. But I always figured my attraction to white men had a lot to do with media.

    You know, there are probably a lot more Asian American women who tell themselves that.

    Like


  311. I always find it ironic when I read about Asian girls dating white guys to “get back at their dads”. If they really wanted to give their parents a heart attack, they would date a black guy, but Asian women have standards, apparently.

    Like


  312. @Pumpkin

    Yeah white is right according to media. And I realize media has a impact on like on who or what we find attractive however it’s not all the medias fault. A lot of the time media shows what people want to see and that happens to be white male characters. To be “diverse” they throw in a black character who usually just helps white people or leads them but the focus is on whites still. So media does have a impact on my preferences.

    Still I think the reason I and other people may be attracted to a race is because of certain features. I remember being at one site where a white South African was saying he likes Asian women because many are petite which makes sense. still though you have petite black women white women etc but maybe he didn’t find that as common or just wasn’t interested for whatever reason.

    Me personally I like the different colored eyes of white men and ughhh especially if they have blue eyes and are blonde fit etc though I’m not exclusive to that. I don’t know many black guys with such features so that’s probably why I am not interested

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  313. @Pumpkin

    Well I guess media shows white males in lead roles because that’s what many whites would rather see. I think many whites feel different from their black countrymen and that they have nothing in common and so can’t really relate/sympathize with a black lead character. Also as you said many in this society r taught that white is right and view blacks with outright hate at worst or at best pity.

    Black people feel the same way like we have no similarities with whites but for the most part we don’t really care if the lead is white Asian etc. if it’s a good movie whether horror drama etc we will watch it. Now many of us r starting to call for more diversity more realistic characters because the media too often is racist subtly or not and many dumb whites believe everything on tv to be representative of all blacks.

    That’s why media is largely white because that is what whites want and many black people accept it without too much of a fuss. That includes other people of color like Hispanics and Asians as well. If anything I would say blacks r more worried about things like police brutality discrimination which have immediate and more apparent negative affects.

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  314. @Pumpkin

    That is a huge problem. some black people from that era r actuAlly thinking segregration was better because even though we couldn’t go to white schools with better facilities programs etc black schools were actually producing students that could read that were educated.

    Take the little rock nine who desegregated this all white high school. they risked their lives and for what? the school is till segregated except the military isn’t keeping blacks out.

    White kids sit with white kids black kids with black. many blacks take remedial asses while many whites r taking college level courses. It’s like two separate schools in one. One of the young girls who went to desegregate the school went back like 50 years later only to see that nothing had changed. If anything it seemed blacks were fading worst

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  315. Obvious when people with recent subsharan african ancestry and people without such ancestry live together anywhere there is often trouble. Whites/asians/hispanics/etc. complain about the “violence”, “trouble-making”, “entitlement mentality” etc of Blacks, Blacks complain about “racism”, “police brutality”, “oppression”. So one wonders if it would´t be better if those people would simply live separated. Only problem: blacks obvious do prefer among non-blacks. Take the USA: whites tried to flee away from blacks (“white flight”) into the suburbs, but blacks simply followed and continue to do so. Take subaharan Africa itself: according to surveys zwo third of of the inhabitans would migrate to Europe tomorrow if they could. Whats the solution?

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  316. @ Pumpkin

    what do you think of some of the things being said about Asian men in this video?

    Most people believe in stereotypes, and white men are just by pure, random coincidence always given the benefit of the doubt. The majority of Asian women who drool over white men won’t be caught dead with a black man. At least Asian men have the decency to be attracted to their own race.

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  317. ^ Yeah, it seems like the Asian American women in that video got their stereotypes (mostly viewed negatively) about Asian men from the media.

    Shows what happens when one is not in control of his own image.

    Like


  318. Just wondering.

    We have been discussing about how Asian American women married to white men are often spokespersons for the “Asian American” experience, and how their credibility might be dubious at times.

    What about Asian American men married to white men? (George Takei comes to mind.) Should we be wary of their credibility also? Or is that different?

    Like


  319. @ jefe

    Shows what happens when one is not in control of his own image.

    Interestingly, most if not all of the negative stereotyping of Asian men in the media is done by white men. It’s a way to keep “their” women away from Asian men and to make Asian women repulsed by their own men. It fits right into white patriarchy, with white men maximizing their own sexual opportunities while restricting other men’s chances. They could add black women to their collection, but ironically, they don’t want them. I have yet to meet a white male Asiaphile who liked black women. Likewise, I have yet to meet a whitewashed Asian female who also dated black men.

    @ pumpkin

    if it makes you feel any better. you should see some of the things said about Black women by some Black men.

    Watching racists say racist things should never make a person feel better.

    Like


  320. @ jefe

    What about Asian American men married to white men? (George Takei comes to mind.) Should we be wary of their credibility also? Or is that different?

    As bms103 mentioned, there are gay Asian men who only date white men. I’ll assume you meant to say:

    What about Asian American men married to white women? (George Takei comes to mind.) Should we be wary of their credibility also? Or is that different?

    The cynic in me wants to blurt, “They’re lucky they even got married!” But the rational part of me says, “Yes, of course we should be wary of them, too.” even though I almost never see any. The situation is very different because white women lose most of their privilege for marrying out of their race, unlike white men. White men who marry Asian women don’t lose any privilege, so Asian women who marry white men are much more powerful and dangerous than Asian men who marry white women. White men control white women because America is a white patriarchy, let’s not forget. Think of it this way. Name one Asian male equivalent of Michelle Malkin.

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  321. If Asian women were handed full control over Asian American events and festivities, I’m almost willing to believe that a holiday celebrating white men would be instated, maybe followed by a Bash the Asian Male Day. Asian women writers already do it in their books, basically. What’s to stop them from taking it further? Asian men have to stand up to this because no one else will.

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  322. @ pumpkin

    why is it ironic?

    White men are generally interested in adding Asian women to their sexual conquests, but ironically, they don’t care to include black women, despite them being more numerous than Asian women.

    also no one wants Black women really. Including Asian men and not even Black men.

    If it means anything, white men are responsible for the media stereotyping of black women, not nonwhite men. Black men, at least, can be faulted for not knowing better.

    Like


  323. OMG, DJ is back.😛

    Like


  324. @Kiwi,

    No, I meant Asian men married to white men, not to white women.

    Like


  325. @ jefe

    LOL! I forgot that George Takei was gay. I was wondering to myself, “When did he marry a white woman?”

    That really complicates the picture. Asian men who marry gay white men are definitely not as bad as Asian women who marry straight white men. Being gay is a huge penalty against white men, meaning that they lose a lot of their privilege. Thus, they cannot confer as much of that privilege on their Asian husbands. And like I’ve said many times before, Asian men are not as readily accepted by whites as Asian women are, so there’s that, too. Gay Asian men are a much smaller demographic, so I wouldn’t worry about them as much.

    What makes the white male/Asian female union so important is that it is the most popular, most accepted, and most promoted interracial relationship. It pairs the least threatening minority group, Asian women, with America’s most powerful group, white men.

    What I have noticed, though, is that straight Asian men are probably maligned more in the media than gay Asian men. I think this ties in with the intersectionality of race, sex, and sexual orientation. Asian masculinity is widely derided while gay men are simultaneously seen as less masculine. What better combination than to paint Asian men as homosexuals, both in the media and in real life? I was amused when Riverside_Rob called me a “gaysian cheerleader”, which I knew is consistent with the views of racist white men who’ve screwed a few Asian women.

    http://www.8asians.com/2011/11/07/the-perfect-villain-straight-asian-men/

    http://expressmilwaukee.com/article-permalink-17354.html

    http://www.iexaminer.org/2011/10/heterosexual-asian-men-invisibility/

    Straight Asian men are maybe the most repressed non-LGBT demographic in the media. All races of men are better represented in the media than the women with one exception: Asians. Asian women are the only female demographic in the media where the women are better represented than the men. Of all races, Asian men benefit the least from male privilege. So much for the stereotype of being sexist oppressors of women. Asian men can’t even hang onto Asian women. Asian men are significantly less likely to be married than Asian women, just as black women are equally less likely to be married than black men. Race is a factor. Gendered racism is the root of it.

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  326. Earlier today, I saw a white man playing with his half Asian children, a son and a daughter. When the girl saw me, she gave me the nastiest grimace I have seen in a long while. I imagine that Asian men must not be liked within their household. I am curious now whether the father and his wife treat the daughter better than their son. I wouldn’t put such behavior past people in such interracial marriages.

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  327. Whenever I see a half white, half Asian boy who looks especially Asian and has a white father and Asian mother, I sometimes feel like grabbing him and saving him from his family. I can’t imagine a more poisonous environment for an Asian male to grow up in.

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  328. Kiwi,

    My question was not about how repressed or oppressed Asian men who are married to white men are. My question was if that affected their credibility to represent the Asian American community, as we discussed earlier about being married to a white man might put an Asian American WOMAN’s credibility into question.

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  329. @ jefe

    My answer was that it makes little difference either way. Maybe when gay white men are accepted as presidents, it may become an issue, but when’s that gonna happen?

    Like


  330. @ jefe

    Also, I wonder if there are any gay Asian male equivalents of Michelle Malkin. I can’t name any straight Asian male equivalents. Another exercise would be to look at whether gay Asian men bash Asian women or straight Asian men. For some reason, I feel like the latter would be the more likely punching bag, given how that’s more socially accepted already. That would tie back to my original point on Asian male heterosexuality being more maligned than Asian male homosexuality. Asian men are assumed to be homosexual if not asexual, anyway.

    Like


  331. @ Kiwi

    You said:

    I grew up in an area that has many South Asians, in addition to East Asians and whites. East Asians and Southeast Asians born and raised in the US generally don’t make much of a fuss over different East Asian or Southeast Asian ethnicities. East Asians and Southeast Asians are all just “Asians”. South Asians are usually not even regarded as “South Asians”. They’re often referred to as just “Indians”.

    I don’t doubt you on that. I realise that East and Southeast Asians in US, Canada and other countries tend to confine “Asian” as a descriptor for themselves and not for Asian peoples south or west of the continent.

    All the same, I’ve heard otherwise, partly because not all South Asians certainly are “Indian”. They could be Bengali, Sri Lankan, Pakistani, etc.

    So that reminds me of when, say, Thais, Koreans, or Japanese for example, are all just “Chinese”, a racial group that are “alike” or “the same” because that’s what they look like supposedly ,and “Chinese” is kind of generally what they ALL are, keeping it simple. (Note, I personally don’t think that is right at all — it’s inaccurate and wrong for all kinds of reasons; in essence, I feel it’s up to the people being described to name themselves — I am simply saying what I’ve heard.)

    Then, and many, many people of South Asian origin, when they DO say they are “Indians”, usually feel they have to qualify that by saying they are
    “Asian Indian” or “East Indian” because Indian is (sometimes or OFTEN) a reference to Native Americans, right?
    Jefe and I discussed this — over and over — and we disagreed about whether it was up to Indian Indiansto accept that they have to qualify their designation, despite all the confusion surrounding calling both Native Americans and South Asians “Indian”.

    Btw: what is interesting to me is how demographics will alter.
    How migrations will increase from South Asia to the Western countries.
    I haven’t read much on this, but, the South Asian populations are probably the most numerous on the globe(?), and may probably be so in the future(?), thus, they are of significant size and presence, and even though “Indians” might be marginal and relatively little known about in the West right now — and the Americas in particular — it may be harder to “peg”, dismiss and sideline them in discussions of race and mainstream culture, as time moves on…

    Like


  332. @ Kiwi

    Knowing East Asians, I always had the impression that the women were more racist than the men, because many are openly repulsed by dark-skinned men. This is reflected in real life. Almost all East Asian women that I have ever seen dating out were with white men, though they are still paradoxically more likely to date other nonwhites than East Asian men are.

    So: East Asian women are more racist, but more likely to date interracially, whereas East Asian men are less racist but more conservative in their dating choices.

    Wow. I really don’t know.
    I can only speak from my own experience and have not found that AT ALL.

    The East Asian women I’ve known will “say” they don’t like dark skinned men, but THEY WILL go for it — given the opportunity!!

    East Asian men seem more conservative, but they DO “come across” with time.
    I’ve seen this in the European context. I don’t know about US or Canada.

    To my own surprise, OkCupid’s dating stats showed that East Asian men are not as racist against South Asian women as I thought they would be. They are looked upon rather favorably….Instead, it was South Asian women who were the most racist against East Asian men, more so than all other races of women.

    This particular kind of racism, unfortunately, is true.
    South Asians / Indian women are very, very “picky” to the point of being actually stuck up when it comes these things.
    And contrary to media images of Indian women falling over themselves for the charms of practically any white man (rolls eyes) and being “easy meat” for white men, I have not seen this in life, ever. It’s a fiction, and a fantasy being written into tv culture…

    However, From talking to strangers and people I knew, this is due to arranged marriages being popular among South Asians, where the women especially are pressured to stay within their own culture.

    Arranged marriage is a factor, but there are others at play, not least caste.
    Caste penetrates and permeates everything, practically. It’s a social evil.
    Even among non-Hindus. It’s there, although more subtle among other religions and groups from India.
    It’s complicated, and I don’t even fully understand it myself, but the cultural traditions are not just complex, but they stick and stick hard, very hard.
    There is much cultural conditioning and brainwashing about staying in lane, not “polluting” oneself, being good, “honour” and on and on. Half the time I think Indian women have their own enslavement to Indian men so deeply ingrained that it would be totally inaccurate to call it “loyalty”. It’s the conditioning of the enslaved we are talking about here, Kiwi.

    Knowing who your family is, their “provenance”, so to speak — is very, very important in these traditions. You obey and you obey your elders.
    You also obey ancestry. That’s how it goes.

    There have been Indian women in my family who were turned down as marriage partners by Indian men (from India) because even though their character, looks, class, professional and economic factors were “of the right calibre”, the families in India could not satifactorially trace our family origins in India. There were even hints of “mixtures” from other places in Asia or Europe as well that they were not content with…!
    Genuine and deep feeling just didn’t get a chance!
    Indians from other parts of the diaspora do not seem as utterly rigid in what they accepted or rejected.

    Like


  333. @ Kiwi

    I don’t mean to say no Indian women at all depart from the hereditary pattern.
    A limited number do, and among immigrants after a while, many more might.

    The bit between 00.30 and 00.45 of this stand up routine made me smile:
    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Asv7n5v9DqY)

    Like


  334. @ Bulanik

    I have tried calling people of various South Asian ethnicities “Asian”, but for some reason, the name doesn’t stick. In the American mind, the first image that the word “Asian” conjures is one of an East Asian. East Asians are the “traditional” poster children for what Americans regard as Asians in general.

    Then, and many, many people of South Asian origin, when they DO say they are “Indians”, usually feel they have to qualify that by saying they are
    “Asian Indian” or “East Indian” because Indian is (sometimes or OFTEN) a reference to Native Americans, right?

    Where I’m from, the South Asian population is significant enough that the word “Indian” is taken to automatically refer to South Asians. Natives are referred to as “Native Americans”. “East Indian” sounds funny and a good deal of people may not know what you’re talking about. I suppose it is a regional thing. I am from the Bay Area, half of which is made up of foreigners. This area is probably America’s single largest concentration of Asian brain drain, and thus is composed of many East and South Asians. Some views that are common here may not apply to the rest of the US due to demographic differences.

    What I have realized is that since Asians in general are viewed as invisible in America’s racial politics, and if East Asians feel invisible already, then South Asians must feel even more so. Since the predominating racial narrative of Asian Americans is that of East Asians, such as Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans being “honorary whites”, what must be the racial narrative of South Asians, such as Indians, Pakistanis, and Bangladeshis? No one seriously considers East Asians and South Asians to be the same race, yet we are all lopped together under the racial category “Asian”. If this is not definitive proof of race as a social construct, then nothing is.

    While South Asians fit in socioeconomically with East Asians as model minorities and may even be seen as honorary whites, I believe their situation is more complex. There is the “terrorist” and “Muslim” stereotype that is applied to some. One of my Indian American friends visited a family friend who was hospitalized after being beaten up by a mob of white men at an airport the month after the September 11 attacks. This is not indicative of acceptance as honorary whites or model minorities. But at the same time, daily life for South Asians is most similar to East Asians. Despite their darker complexion, South Asians are seen by whites more similarly to East Asians than to blacks or Hispanics. This suggests a significant degree of acceptance as model minorities or honorary whites.

    I would not be surprised if in the future, South Asians are given their own racial category, separate from East Asians. But then again, that may never happen. Race never made sense to begin with.

    Like


  335. @Kiwi

    There’s a short comment to you, following on from the last one, in moderation.

    Like


  336. @Kiwi

    I don’t find it surprising that a lot of white men don’t really care to pursue black women. black women are viewed as either sluts, ghetto, or just plain mean and domineering. they find us plain disgusting at worst or just feel indifferent at best.

    now Asian women have stereotypes like being submissive sex kittens which I think are just terrible but a lot of white men with Asian fetishes think are attractive in comparison to black women. they aren’t viewed as being as masculine and hard to get as black women

    Like


  337. @ Sharina:

    “All the women I know (who happened to be Asian) drooled over lead actor Lee Min Ho”—I know what you mean. He annoyed me in Boys over Flowers but he grew on me. I notice him more than I notice other male actors in the Korean Dramas. My favorite female actor is Yoon Eun Hye. I love everything she is in. I have not watched Kdramas in awhile, so if you have any new ones to recommend then let me know.

    Oh, you like her? She’s a pretty good actress. Did you know she used to be in a Korean pop girl band called Baby V.O.X (Voice Of Expression) as a teenager? I also haven’t watched Korean dramas in some time because a lot of them tend to follow the same formula. The last drama I watched was a historical period piece called Jang Ok Jung (2013). I enjoyed it. I think you will, too. Oh, and I also recommend Chuno. It has my favorite Korean actor, Oh Ji Ho, in it. He even placed #1 (courtesy of his fanbase – me included) in Abagond’s The Ten Most Gorgeous Men In The World poll!

    Like


  338. @ Pumpkin:

    Filipina women and white men, what do you think?

    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7VswBGstT0)

    Ugh, I cringed watching that video. The white interviewer is Travis Kraft. He’s a minor celebrity in the Philippines. I really hate those Filipina girls’ comments about white guys. It’s gag inducing. I’ve read comments about this Travis Kraft fellow saying he’s so hot, and I don’t think he’s good looking facial-wise. I think he has beady eyes, and his flared nostrils bother me for some reason. However, in his younger years, he was a model, and I will admit he had a physique I liked. Quite muscular. (And, no, Kiwi, it’s not because he’s white.) I guess the correct term is butterface.

    Anyway, I learned his something interesting about this guy years ago. He was raised by his adoptive mother who was a Filipina. Recently, he also married a Filipina who he had been dating for years. His wife even remarked, “Ours is an unlikely romance. It was unexpected. I never imagined a good-looking guy would fall for me.” Please note, Travis Kraft told his future wife that “it was love at first sight for him and that it was her long hair that first got his attention”. Uh, huh.

    Like


  339. Omg, I received a message on Facebook today. The person who sent me a message was someone I hadn’t seen since high school. Please allow me to explain. I don’t know if some of you may recall, but I grew up in a predominantly white area. There were barely any POC around until I entered high school when the dynamics changed. When I was in high school, I was asked out quite frequently by white guys, and there was this one white guy in particular who stood out. He was so annoying! Even when I said I wasn’t interested, he took my “no” as in “no, not now, maybe later.” In fact, I was seeing my Filipino boyfriend at the time. Well, this annoying, white guy would try to flatter me. How? He would say pretty much every fricking stereotype about Asians under the sun! He more or less bothered me from the tenth grade until the twelfth grade asking for a date. He was quite creepy actually. Clearly, I wasn’t interested, but that didn’t stop him. Thank god, he left me alone, BUT only after some other Asian girl agreed to go out with him.

    Okay, now going back to Facebook. I received this message from some person I didn’t know. He seemed to know me because his message read that I could never forget someone like him. It was the same guy from high school! I looked through his Facebook friends’ list and he found me through a mutual friend of my cousin’s! I didn’t even use my real name yet he found me! I quickly perused through his Facebook profile and I learned he married a Chinese-Canadian woman and had three children with her. And get this, he posted up pictures of his Choy Li Fut Kung Fu martial arts, Chinese-characters and dragon tattoos, Chinese furnishings, Chinese dance troupes, inlaws, etc. I was not shocked this guy was an Asiaphile. It seems this leopard hasn’t changed his spots. Anyway, no, worries. I remembered how creepy he was back then, and I blocked him asap. What a relief.

    Like


  340. @ pumpkin

    Thanks for sharing the information about Siobhan Brooks. I didn’t know about that. It makes sense that black women are devalued, but I didn’t expect that people would actively put them down to that degree. To me, that’s just mean.

    Comparing men to women may not be the best apples to apples comparison, especially those of different races, but sometimes I feel the same way about how Asian men are viewed. Once, I read about a theoretical situation where 100 random white men and 100 random Asian men were placed in the same room. The Asian male commenter said that if a crowd of white women were asked to choose the top 10 most attractive men from the mixed group, they probably would choose 9 white men and maybe one Asian man. But then he said that if a crowd of Asian women were asked to choose the top 10 most attractive men, they would probably choose the same guys. I honestly don’t think what he said was far from the truth.

    MIT did a study that found that Asian men needed to make about $246,000 more than a white man to be equally attractive to white women. I’ve already found multiple studies that show Asian women also preferred white men over Asian men, even more so than white women did.

    The data for how black women view Asian men is contradictory. Black women may be influenced by colorism bias when they see Asian men, since they have lighter skin. That could be the main reason one is more attracted to the other. And since Asian men don’t have the same history that white men do with black women, black women might also view Asian men more favorably in that regard. But at the same time, the media portrays white men as superior to Asian men, who are emasculated. So black women might be influenced by that and not view Asian men as favorably as they view white men. The studies are inconsistent, so I don’t know.

    Like


  341. @ leigh204

    I learned he married a Chinese-Canadian woman and had three children with her. And get this, he posted up pictures of his Choy Li Fut Kung Fu martial arts, Chinese-characters and dragon tattoos, Chinese furnishings, Chinese dance troupes, inlaws, etc. I was not shocked this guy was an Asiaphile.

    Please, please, please, I hope none of them are boys! My worst nightmare would be to wake up as an Asian male with a white father.

    Like


  342. @ pumpkin

    I want you to know Kiwi that you sound like an intelligent, caring young man and I know that you’ll find someone who will love you and make you happy. don’t let society drag you down. You are so understanding and it seems like you have a lot going for you.

    You do, too, you know that? Did you ever call back the guy who gave you his number?

    Like


  343. @ Kiwi:

    @ leigh204

    I learned he married a Chinese-Canadian woman and had three children with her. And get this, he posted up pictures of his Choy Li Fut Kung Fu martial arts, Chinese-characters and dragon tattoos, Chinese furnishings, Chinese dance troupes, inlaws, etc. I was not shocked this guy was an Asiaphile.

    Please, please, please, I hope none of them are boys! My worst nightmare would be to wake up as an Asian male with a white father.

    Well, then your worst nightmare came true. He has one son (the oldest) and two little girls. Anyway, I also remember the weird vibe this man gave me when I went to school with him. And it makes me shudder he found someone to marry and have kids with. This guy was desperate even then in a sense that he put a lot of effort in trying to get your attention. I would see him in the hallways practically at every turn and the look he gave me seemed to bore into my very soul. As I said, quite creepy.

    Like


  344. @ leigh204

    Being an Asian male, I always keep my guard up whenever I meet a white guy who *likes* Asian women. I am never surprised if I learn that their adoration of Asian females does not extend to Asian males. I’ve read about HAPA men with white dads and Asian moms who shared that same kind of mindset, and it makes me sick inside to think of the millions of people who are raised in these kinds of families.

    Like


  345. Since I talked about reading a message from a former schoolmate on Facebook, I happened upon another old friend’s profile page. I befriended him when he was new to the school, and, well, since he was Filipino like me, we tend to stick together. Anyway, a couple of these white guys kept picking on him for whatever reason. He held his emotions in until one time, he was so fed up with being harassed, he challenged the biggest white guy to a fight after school. Mind you, my schoolmate was 5’5″ and the white guy was around 6′ tall. I remember all the white kids were saying that the Filipino guy was stupid to want to fight the white guy. And I voiced my concern to my schoolmate. He told me not to worry, but I was. It’s not that I didn’t think he was capable of defending himself, but the white guy he challenged had a reputation of beating up people badly and he had his friends to back him up.

    Well, a score of white people came to the after school fight and they remarked that this would be a short fight. The white guy was too overconfident, but my friend made short work of him. You see, my friend knew Sikaran (a Filipino martial arts which involves a lot of kicking) and he front kicked the white guy directly in the face and he gave him a broken nose. The white guy was stunned his nose was bleeding, the coward even told his friends to get a hold of my friend. LOL! And I saw his friends shake their heads. Hahahaha! From then on, no one picked on my friend anymore. Oh, Kiwi! You would’ve loved, LOVED to have seen that! And, so, my friend and I lost touch after high school, but when I found him on Facebook, I sent him a message to friend him and he accepted! Ahh, what great memories.😎

    Like


  346. *Sorry, kiwi, I meant my friend challenged the biggest white guy in the small group of white guys who harassed him. The biggest white guy in school was 6’5″.

    Like


  347. ^^^

    Wow, that edit makes a huge difference!

    @ leigh204

    Sadly, in spite of your story, Asian American children have the highest bullying rate of any race in the country. Last time I checked, the rate for white kids is around 20-30% while the rate for Asian kids is close to 60%. Because we’re stereotyped as model minorities, people think we’re nerdy, quiet, submissive, and weak pushovers. And that has real life consequences. Asian Americans have abnormally high levels of psychological disorders, especially among those who live in white majority neighborhoods. Asian youth also have the lowest ratings for self-esteem of any race in the country and commit suicide at disproportionately high rates.

    But of course, we’re not allowed to complain because Asians don’t experience racism. *sarcasm*

    Like


  348. @ leigh204

    When you were small, did Asian boys get picked on more than Asian girls or was there no difference? Also, did Asian girls who dated white boys experience less discrimination or did their status remain unchanged?

    Like


  349. @ pumpkin

    Whites are always telling Asians to stop talking about racism and they throw the Model Minority stereotype in our face to shut us up, but the stereotype hurts more than it helps. White success is celebrated as an individual thing but Asian success is generalized as a pathology. “You got an A on the test? That’s because you’re Asian.”

    I’ve seen whites try to justify anti-Asian school quotas by saying that Asian parenting is “too strict” and that raising admissions requirements on Asian students is a “good thing”. Based on my observations, Jewish parenting is about as strict as Asian parenting, but whites don’t make that out to be a pathology. I suppose white parents always know best.

    I was on a forum once, and a white parent was complaining about how his daughter got rejected by the top UCs. He pointed at his daughter’s grades, test scores, and extracurriculars, which I thought was fine, and I actually felt sympathetic. But at the end of his story, he blamed his daughter’s failures on Asians. He ranted about Asian students spending all day, holed up in their homes, studying. He said that was “imbalanced” and asked why Asian kids should be admitted over his daughter. I was shocked. Whites always complain about blacks and Hispanics not studying enough and only getting into schools on affirmative action, but now here was a white man complaining that Asians study too much and how that was the reason his daughter didn’t get into university. Not only that, many white students do the same thing he described Asian students doing, but he wasn’t complaining about that. He wanted to make it a racial issue.

    Side note: The UCs are forbidden to use affirmative action so they have race blind admissions, but there is still an implicit quota against Asians based on essays and maybe names. All for the sake of “diversity”. So it’s easier for a white student to get into any top school than it is for any equivalent Asian student. The white father was just being racist.

    I learned that it doesn’t matter what you do. A white racist will always be a racist, no matter how good or bad you are, no matter how hard you try.

    Like


  350. Not sure where this should go but there is a go funding page for the policeman who shot Michael Brown. http://pando.com/2014/08/21/145k-and-counting-racists-rush-to-support-gofundme-campaign-for-cop-who-shot-michael-brown/
    Read the comments that the supporters have been leaving.

    Like


  351. @ Kiwi:

    @ leigh204

    Sadly, in spite of your story, Asian American children have the highest bullying rate of any race in the country. Last time I checked, the rate for white kids is around 20-30% while the rate for Asian kids is close to 60%.

    Because we’re stereotyped as model minorities, people think we’re nerdy, quiet, submissive, and weak pushovers. And that has real life consequences. Asian Americans have abnormally high levels of psychological disorders, especially among those who live in white majority neighborhoods. Asian youth also have the lowest ratings for self-esteem of any race in the country and commit suicide at disproportionately high rates.

    But of course, we’re not allowed to complain because Asians don’t experience racism. *sarcasm*

    Yes, I do recall the percentage of Asian-American children is very high compared to other groups. As you mentioned, Asian-American kids are bullied because of those stereotypes. Some non-Asians think they can just go around and fcuk with us, and that’s why, Kiwi, I was so proud of my friend for bringing down one of the white guys harassing him. You don’t see too many Asians stick up for themselves.

    When you were small, did Asian boys get picked on more than Asian girls or was there no difference? Also, did Asian girls who dated white boys experience less discrimination or did their status remain unchanged?

    Do you mean when I was a young child? As I’ve already stated, I grew up in an area where the majority was white people. Of the handful of Asians in my elementary school, there was an equal number of Asian boys to Asian girls. I do recall the Asian boys being picked on, but it usually had to do with something sports related especially indoor ball hockey. It’s a Canadian thing.

    Anyway, the Asian boys were usually picked last on the team and the white players would get visibly upset if one or more of the Asian boys ended up on their team. They would be verbally abusive and say stuff such as, “Get the ball, stupid!” or “Open your eyes” or “God, Asians suck!” Sometimes, the Asian boys would get a shove or trip here and there. Well, the Asian boys didn’t retaliate or anything. They just suffered in silence.

    As for me, I experienced the eye pulling gestures and racial taunts. As you probably know, I had contemplated eyelid surgery at one point, but thanks to my mother’s influence, I ignored my tormentors.

    Now the Asian girls (the ones I knew) who dated white boys, their status remained unchanged, that is, for the time being. From what I observed, the white friends of the Asian girl/White boy couple thought of them as merely going through a passing phase. It wasn’t serious, or so they thought. They tended to alienate the Asian girls.

    However, the longer the Asian girls stayed in relationships with white guys, they were eventually included in parties/functions and such where other Asians were excluded. This always gave me the side eye because while the white people seemed to warm up to these Asian girls, I have witnessed these same people talk smack behind their back.

    Like


  352. Oopsie, Kiwi, my comment to you began with, “Yes, I do recall….”

    Like


  353. @Anne, why don’t you share that on the Michael Brown thread. It might get lost here.

    Like


  354. @Kiwi,

    You discuss a lot about the prevalence of negative Asian American male stereotypes, about how white men often take the attitude that they “own” Asian women and about some of the motivations of many Asian women who seek, date and perhaps marry white men. You also discuss about the implication for Asian American men and their relationships with whites and blacks.

    But have you ever analyzed how this phenomenon developed in a historical context. It was NOT this way before and it all didn’t just develop overnight. And it didn’t develop necessarily from attitudes that Asians brought to the USA with them when they originally came (but I do think it does come partly from that.)

    I know you are too young to “remember” when this White male – Asian female thing started, but did you ever study how it developed? Did you study how race relations, dating and marriage for Asian American men has evolved?

    It is one thing to notice a phenomenon (which is the important first step), but we also should understand how we got there. I have been doing my own speculation about that, but we have to look at what happened in the 19th and 20th centuries.

    Like


  355. Wondering if anyone is interested in a guest post about “Ugly Chinese Tourist”? I collected some stuff on this about 6 months ago, but so much more has happened since then.

    Basically, Mainland Chinese are now leading the international tourist market and have superseded “Ugly American” as the “force” that needs to be dealt with.

    Like


  356. @ leigh204

    This always gave me the side eye because while the white people seemed to warm up to these Asian girls, I have witnessed these same people talk smack behind their back.

    I’ve had similar things happen to me. I remember one incident where I was in the elevator with a white guy and his Asian girlfriend. They were both polite towards me and my mom. But later that day, I found myself in the elevator again with the same white guy and some other white guys. He said something about me to the other white guys that I think was intended as a joke, and it rubbed me the wrong way. I won’t reveal what he said, as it’s too personal, but I highly doubt he would have said it if I were white.

    Like


  357. @ jefe:

    Wondering if anyone is interested in a guest post about “Ugly Chinese Tourist”? I collected some stuff on this about 6 months ago, but so much more has happened since then.

    Basically, Mainland Chinese are now leading the international tourist market and have superseded “Ugly American” as the “force” that needs to be dealt with.

    Ah, is this the one with Chinese mainlanders going abroad and showing their bad manners such as urinating in public, spitting, and openly farting?

    Like


  358. @ Kiwi:

    @ leigh204

    This always gave me the side eye because while the white people seemed to warm up to these Asian girls, I have witnessed these same people talk smack behind their back.

    I’ve had similar things happen to me. I remember one incident where I was in the elevator with a white guy and his Asian girlfriend. They were both polite towards me and my mom. But later that day, I found myself in the elevator again with the same white guy and some other white guys. He said something about me to the other white guys that I think was intended as a joke, and it rubbed me the wrong way. I won’t reveal what he said, as it’s too personal, but I highly doubt he would have said it if I were white.

    I’m not surprised. Actions speak louder than words.

    Like


  359. @Leigh204,

    That is part of it (also defacing public property or historical relics, pushing people out of line, not following rules, yelling, screamingetc.), but also recognizing that it is a global force that needs to be reckoned with and catered to (ie, providing the service that they expect).

    They have usurped the ugly American.

    Like


  360. @ pumpkin

    I wonder, do you think despite emasculating stereotypes of Asian men, some white me might still be a little threatened by asian men???

    Absolutely. I have lost count of the number of times white men with an Asian girlfriend have gotten visibly uncomfortable or seemed insecure when they saw me. Usually, these guys look like the kind of white man who couldn’t get a girl from his own race and turned to Asian women as a “backup plan”. The white male commenter biff is like that. In general, the quality of white men who date Asian women is much lower than that of those who date white women. This wouldn’t happen, however, if Asian women weren’t attracted to white men just because of their race. It doesn’t bother me much, though, because people tend to end up with others of similar quality, including white men and Asian women.

    Like


  361. @ Kiwi:

    If I recall, you mentioned you lived in CA, correct? You said you see an awful lot of Asian women with white men. Where I’m from, I’ll see some AW/WM here and there. However, most of the Asian-Canadian women here are dating/marrying other Asian-Canadian men.

    Like


  362. @Leigh:

    I find the same thing here in Toronto.

    Like


  363. @ Herneith:

    @Leigh:

    I find the same thing here in Toronto.

    Girrrrl, how’re you?😀 Did you attend Caribana? My cousin wanted me to go visit T dot O dot, but I’ve been so busy with work. Maybe next year, eh?

    Anyway, regarding the AW/WM couples, I just don’t find them as prevalent. It’s not that I’m not seeing them, it’s just not as much imho.

    Like


  364. @ leigh204

    Where I’m from, I’ll see some AW/WM here and there. However, most of the Asian-Canadian women here are dating/marrying other Asian-Canadian men.

    Say whaa!? Up and down California, you’ll find Asian women dating white men like there’s no tomorrow. I’ve observed the disparity in every major metropolitan area from San Francisco to San Jose to Los Angeles to San Diego. Sure, most Asian women are with Asian men but the issue is the disparity. You said you’re from a predominantly white area, so wouldn’t that mean most of the Asian women end up with white men? I’ve observed that Asian women are even more likely to be with white men in white majority areas.

    Where I’m from, Asians are the majority but I still see Asian women with white men everywhere. “Here and there” does not describe it. Maybe it’s a regional thing. I’ve heard contradictory claims about California, from it being the best place for Asian men to it being the most extremely affected by the interracial disparity. Even the stats contradict so I can only base what I know on what I see. And it looks bad.

    Like


  365. @ Kiwi:

    Believe it or not, even though I live in a place where the white majority dominate, the Asian women here are mostly STILL with Asian men. However, that could very well change. Time will tell.

    Like


  366. @ jefe

    I know you are too young to “remember” when this White male – Asian female thing started, but did you ever study how it developed? Did you study how race relations, dating and marriage for Asian American men has evolved?

    Unfortunately, I do not have a time machine. I do know now that nearly all the first Asians in America were men. Therefore, the oldest stereotypes of the Asian race is largely aimed at Asian men. Bashing Asian men is popular, for example, but rarely do whites make a sport out of bashing Asian women. Gendered racism against Asians seems to cut one way more so than the other, and Asian men bear the brunt of it. The only thing that makes being an Asian female worse than being an Asian male is that they have to face sexism.

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  367. I think it’s interesting that the disparity exists as well in my school’s Chinese Studies faculty.

    white men: 7 > white women: 4

    Asian men: 8 = Asian women: 7 + 1 married to a white man

    In addition, whenever I see a white student studying an Asian language, I noticed that it is always a white male, never a white female. Asiaphilia in the making.

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  368. Perceived attractiveness of people’s faces was found to explain why black men and Asian women are, respectively, favored over black women and Asian men in interracial relationships.

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0031703#close

    Like


  369. @ pumpkin

    Do you believe black women experience more racism than black men or is the opposite true?

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  370. @Kiwi,

    Unfortunately, I do not have a time machine.

    You do not need a time machine. You can study it, learn what is recorded about it, talk to people about it, etc.

    For example, I do have some theories based on what I have read and known.

    Asian men used to outnumber Asian women about 10 to 1. That meant that most would never have a wife, at least one in the USA. Those who had no wife would have to visit prostitutes, or form relationships with whites, blacks (or sometimes Native Americans, Mexicans, etc.).

    The Chinese Exclusion Act was repealed in 1943 (others followed suit, eg., the Philippines and India in 1946, etc.). But that didn’t bring many women over as the quotas were all exceedingly small. If a man wanted an Asian wife, he often had to go to Asia to get one.

    THAT was not fixed until the 1965 act which came into effect in 1968.

    ex-GI Asian Americans could go to Asia and bring back a wife not subject to the small quotas under the War Brides Act. Initially, the war brides act could not contradict the anti-miscegenation laws. But then white men pushed to have the War Brides Act amended so that THEY could bring back Asian wives.

    My point is, the 20th century wars in Asia created the mindset that white men were entitled to Asian women. Once they asked for it, they got it. Asian men had been asking for it for 65 years and it got nowhere. This led to the idea that white men are entitled to Asian women, but somehow, Asian men are not (they are not entitled to women period).

    Now, we have to look at the other side of the coin. Why do so many Asian women want nothing to do with Asian men and went straight to the arms of white men? Some of it I can explain. Before the 1960s, many of the Asian women in the USA married men in arranged marriages. The racial imbalance was so bad that any Asian American woman was quickly matched to an Asian man. Those Asian American men who had no wife in the USA had one sent to them from Asia. In the early years before the men had families in the USA, many came as picture brides. Later on, parents forced their sons to marry a woman they picked from Asia.

    Asian American women grew up in families where their mothers were “forced” to marry their fathers. They want nothing of that, and interpret (perhaps wrongly) that marrying an Asian man will lead to the same kind of situation. Marrying a white man will free them from that burden.

    Of course, much of it comes from stereotypes. There is so much Asian male bashing in the USA that no one can be immune from its effects. But once white men came back from the wars in Asia and brought back Asian wives (or at least memories of their “ex-girlfriends” in Asia),. they brought the bashing back with them, and expanded on the stereotypes already present in the USA.

    Still that doesn’t explain everything. I have seen new female immigrants bash Asian men within a few years after arriving, esp. those from brain drain families. I don’t get why so many 1st generation Asian women also have so many negative ideas about Asian men.

    I have to tell you a personal story some time.

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  371. @ jefe

    I have seen new female immigrants bash Asian men within a few years after arriving, esp. those from brain drain families. I don’t get why so many 1st generation Asian women also have so many negative ideas about Asian men.

    I believe you know by this point that my two aunts who married white men both grew up in Asia, one of whom is an Asian male basher. I suspect it has something to do with the United States military presence in Taiwan during the Cold War. Half of the movies and television consumed by the Taiwanese was local while the other half was American.

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  372. Are you saying that the American movies and television watched in Asia bashed Asian men or glorified white men? Or do they glorify AW/WM relationships? What makes white men better husbands?

    Does that explain why immigrant Korean women date white men or turn into Asian male bashers?

    But, of the refugee immigrants and the sweatshop immigrants and small business store owner immigrants, it seems that less go for white men (it takes at least 1-2 more generations). But brain drain ones often go straight to white men.

    You say that you suspect things, but I really want to know where it came from. I have met Taiwanese women enter the USA just before university, and they are already seriously basing Asian men by the time they are sophomores.

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  373. @ jefe

    Are you saying that the American movies and television watched in Asia bashed Asian men or glorified white men? Or do they glorify AW/WM relationships? What makes white men better husbands?

    Does that explain why immigrant Korean women date white men or turn into Asian male bashers?

    I honestly can not think of another possible explanation for the obsession with white men among women in East Asia other than America’s cultural empire and military presence there. As for those who immigrate to the US, the Model Minority stereotype allures them into feeling accepted in addition to the media presenting white men as superior to Asian men. Economic status does not explain it because Asian men are the highest earning demographic in the country. Ironically, no one wants Asian men’s genes despite all their work and being patted on the head by whites as the “good minority”. To me, this is indicative of a white patriarchy.

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  374. @kiwi & pumpkin,

    Sorry to but into your conversation but on the topic of white men marrying Asian women, have you considered that maybe the self hatred is more on the white man’ send? What I mean by that is couldn’t it be possible that the man is dating outside ethnic group because he does not feel comfortable in it? Also, maybe the man is focused on Asian women because he sees them as more approachable than other groups due to the stereotype of the model minority.

    You probably already discussed it. But I just wanted to ask.

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  375. @Leigh:

    No I didn’t, I was in New Orleans at the time. However, I used to live up the road so to speak from where part of the parade passed through. Sometimes I went, sometimes I don’t. I haven’t been in a couple of years.

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  376. Economic status does not explain it because Asian men are the highest earning demographic in the country.

    Hook me up Kiwi!

    Like


  377. @ Herneith

    LOL!

    @ pumpkin

    It was probably a shock to see a Black woman reading a book and wearing a dress and otherwise acting like a normal human being.

    I know what you’re saying. I often get the impression that white men feel threatened by Asian men who aren’t ugly, asexual nerds. Like I said, many white men who date Asian women think they’re better than Asian men, so their egos take a blow when they see an Asian man who defies the stereotypes.

    asian men will have their day.

    This is true in Asia, but I’m not sure how true it will be in America. The rise of Asia could mean that the Model Minority stereotype gives way to the Yellow Peril stereotype as Asians are more and more perceived as a threat.

    @ Anne

    have you considered that maybe the self hatred is more on the white man’ send? What I mean by that is couldn’t it be possible that the man is dating outside ethnic group because he does not feel comfortable in it?

    That is highly doubtful. Abagond and I agree that white men lose no white privilege whatsoever by dating Asian women, unlike whites in other interracial pairings. Randy and biff are both white men married to Asian women and everybody on this blog is aware of their extreme racism towards blacks, Asians, and other nonwhites. All in all, white men who date Asian women retain a strong sense of white identity. I think white men who date Asian women are more likely to be racist than white men who don’t. Asian women are also less likely to challenge white men and instead are more likely to support them and join them in their racism.

    Racist white men on this blog who have dated/married Asian women:

    Randy
    biff
    Asplund
    Robert Walpole

    Racist white men on this blog who I suspect have dated/married Asian women:

    Big Momma/Da Jokah/Church’s Chicken/duckduckgoofs
    Riverside_Rob

    One way of finding out if a white man is racist is by checking to see if he dates Asian women but will not date black women. This is true of maybe half the white men in my list above. Another way of telling is by checking to see whether he feels unsympathetic towards racism against Asian men, despite dating Asian women. This is true of maybe half the men above as well.

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  378. @ Pumpkin

    This is not a dating service. Well, not yet😉

    Like


  379. @kiwi,

    True. I was thinking more of the nerd who thinks he can’t get the popular cheerleader type so he goes for the stereotypical quiet Asian girl. But your point would still stand in that case.

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  380. @Kiwi,

    Ironically, no one wants Asian men’s genes

    I told you I remember hearing immigrant Taiwanese females describe Taiwanese males as “ugly” or “半男半女” (emasculating term), when I was looking at many of them as tall, handsome, smart, athletic, etc. I didn’t get the fascination with those dorky white men.

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  381. But actually, they can only say that they do not want their children to have an Asian man’s genes. Unless their father is white is white, it is too late for them.

    Remember when Lucy Liu’s character in Charlie’s Angels was redone so that she had a white father?

    I also wonder about how those 2% of African-American men feel when their Y-DNA haplogroup points to recent Chinese ancestry.

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  382. @ jefe

    I told you I remember hearing immigrant Taiwanese females describe Taiwanese males as “ugly” or “半男半女” (emasculating term), when I was looking at many of them as tall, handsome, smart, athletic, etc. I didn’t get the fascination with those dorky white men.

    A white guy told me about a girl from China he dated who said Asian men were ugly and that white men were more attractive. I also agree with Anne. The type of white men that Asian women date tend not to be the jock who played on the football team and got the blonde cheerleader. These men are usually low status among whites but Asian women are more than happy to gobble up the rejects because they’re white.

    What I find most ironic is that many of the white men Asian women date perfectly match the description Asian women give of Asian men for not dating them. (eg: skinny, nerdy, ugly, feminine, quiet, shy, etc.)

    As a comparison, Asian men who date out of their race are nowhere near as low in social quality as white men who date Asian women. I think that’s mainly because Asian men have lower status than white men, so they have to try harder in order to be appealing to women from other races. Basically, the worst of white men can easily get an Asian woman, but only the best of Asian men are considered by other races or even their own.

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  383. @ jefe

    Remember when Lucy Liu’s character in Charlie’s Angels was redone so that she had a white father?

    White men/Asian women are the most popular, most accepted, most promoted, and most celebrated interracial relationship. I find it funny that the white man/Asian woman pairing is almost ubiquitous in the media, but white men were screaming when they saw a black man with one of “their” women in the Cheerios commercial. Most white families probably wouldn’t bat an eye if their son married an Asian woman but if a nonwhite man married one of their daughters, they’d be singing a different tune.

    When my aunt married her white husband, religion was a bigger deal than race for her husband’s family. I don’t think that would have been the case if a nonwhite man had been propositioning one of their daughters instead.

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  384. *proposing, not propositioning, gross

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  385. @Kiwi,

    When I feel up to it, I will share a personal cringetastic story, but I wanted to ask you something else. Did you ever take any Asian American studies courses? Or did you find them irrelevant to your personal situation?

    I mentioned I did take one in university, and I did my report on the Chinese who settled in Mississippi. But other classmates did it on the AW / WM dating situation. You seem very interested in this, but most of what you glean from observation in your community and school campus. Have you read any dedicated research on the topic? Maybe you might be interested in doing some direct research yourself. I would like to see you go and do it and see what you find.

    Most white families probably wouldn’t bat an eye if their son married an Asian woman

    I dunno. I suspect half the white families out there would still not be too thrilled to see half Asian grandkids or an Asian daughter-in-law.. We don’t need most white families to accept it in order for 50% of Asian American women to date / marry white guys if white guys outnumber Asian women 10 to 1.

    It may be interesting to contemplate about 2 white grandparents — would they really feel inclined to treat their half-Asian grandkids very differently if they were their son’s kids vs. their daughter’s kids?

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  386. @ jefe

    Did you ever take any Asian American studies courses? Or did you find them irrelevant to your personal situation?

    Unfortunately, no. Being that my school is chockfull of the Asian brain drain, it’s hard to even get the class as all the Asian students naturally have jampacked it. I also wanted a new perspective so I took the next most important thing, for America’s situation and especially California’s: Chicano studies.

    It may be interesting to contemplate about 2 white grandparents — would they really feel inclined to treat their half-Asian grandkids very differently if they were their son’s kids vs. their daughter’s kids?

    Since the white son’s children will carry on the family name, not the white daughter’s, obviously the grandparents would have a greater emotional investment in their son’s children. If the grandkids look white, so much the better. I’ve met some that are basically Asians with white privilege, in appearance and name.

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  387. @Kiwi,
    So at least some of the Asian brain drain kids who had no opportunity to learn about Asian American history or social studies in High School decided to do it at university.

    I hope that you still have a chance to do it some time.I bet you would be leagues ahead of your classmates if you do.But at the same time, it will give you a chance to research a particular topic that you are interested and learn what the classmates find out too.

    I also wanted a new perspective so I took the next most important thing, for America’s situation and especially California’s: Chicano studies.

    Interesting that you call this a “new perspective” considering that you are in California. This stuff should have been at least introduced in elementary and high school.

    Maybe you will have a change to take a black studies / African-American history class too, and compare what you learn in that vs. what you learned in primary/secondary school.

    Since the white son’s children will carry on the family name, not the white daughter’s, obviously the grandparents would have a greater emotional investment in their son’s children.

    then they should be much more concerned who the son marries and care less about the daughter’s.

    I do think this perspective is possibly more important regarding Asian parents.

    I’ve met some that are basically Asians with white privilege, in appearance and name.

    Do you mean the daughter-in-law or the grandkids?

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  388. @ jefe

    I meant the grandkids. Their mother would only have white privilege by name, not appearance.

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  389. If you feel they have white appearance, white name, white privilege, and presumably white identity, why do you still call them “Asian people”?

    You know, it is not easy for 1/2 white people to pass as “white” in front of white people. I think nearly all white people will detect that they (at least 98% of them) are not all white, if white at all.

    I had this discussion many times with hundreds of Eurasians / Hapas. In nearly every case, Asians will notice that they are part European or even assume they are not Asian – the idea that they are part Asian is sometimes an afterthought. But white people usually notice that they have Asian or some non-white ancestry first, and often do not think they are white at all. The idea that they might be part white might hit them only as an afterthought.

    Now, if THEY have kids with white people, that is a different story.

    e.g.,
    Angela Warnick Buchdahl (first Korean born (Eurasian) rabbi)
    She married a white guy herself.
    (http://iamkoream.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/F-Rabbi-1211-NuclearFamily.jpg)

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  390. @ Kiwi

    What I have realized is that since Asians in general are viewed as invisible in America’s racial politics, and if East Asians feel invisible already, then South Asians must feel even more so.

    Wow.
    One of the very few who’ve take the time the time to entertain that thought.

    I think only you, Jefe and Leigh appear to have given that “possibility” the time of day…

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  391. But come to think of it, Mstoogood and Mary Burrell “got it” right away, too.

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  392. @Jefe

    Now, if THEY have kids with white people, that is a different story.

    By that stage, 1/4 or even 1/8 East Asian, they are white people with a touch of the “exotic”. It’s a je ne sais quoi that is more than okay (what I’ve noticd in Europe, at least) It adds mystique to the men (Ian Duncan Smith, for example, 1/8 Japanese) and a hard to pin-down sexiness to women.(for instance, Kate Bekinsale, 1/8 Burmese).

    i’ve noticed that their Asian-ness is “always” brought up even though these people function as whites. By “always” I don’t mean every time, but in ways I wouldn’t have expected. Such as “she/he’s X part this, y’know” as if it’s “good to know” because that ought to change how they are viewed or treated, i.e., not real whites, or something, I don’t know.

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  393. Kiwi said:

    …The type of white men that Asian women date tend not to be the jock who played on the football team and got the blonde cheerleader. These men are usually low status among whites but Asian women are more than happy to gobble up the rejects because they’re white.

    What I find most ironic is that many of the white men Asian women date perfectly match the description Asian women give of Asian men for not dating them. (eg: skinny, nerdy, ugly, feminine, quiet, shy, etc.)

    lol! I’d noticed that, over and over too, but thought I shouldn’t say anything.
    That was the society I grew up in. It was not “polite” to question the choices of white men.

    How it was couched, at the time, was that these Asian woman/white man relationships were “genuine”, because they were obviously based on intellect and inner qualities — not base and sexual criteria like what was going on between the other Romeo and Juliets of race –black men and white women. Therefore looks, for white men, weren’t the main thing.
    They were “above” that.*
    But, if the criterion were looks only, then, there are so many handsome East Asian men who ALSO had intellectual and inner qualities, so how come they didn’t seem to get a a look-in?

    For a longest while, I don’t think it was even acceptable to question the desirability of white men.
    These East Asian women didn’t, after all.

    It’s only recent to even use the words “entitled, white privilege” in that context.

    ( * later I likened it to the “Ari Onassis Syndrome”.
    Ari Onassis was short and ugly, but got the women because he didn’t look short and ugly to women when he stood on his money )

    Like


  394. correction:”… if the the criterion was looks only, “

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  395. That’s the way it was set up, pumpkin.
    (It feels kind of not-right typing that name btw, lol — it’s like addressing you as “sweetheart” or “darling”…!)

    There was no rumour as far as those practices and perceptions went.
    It was a common colonial “taboo”.

    The nasty and well-known stereotype was/is that any white woman who “debased” herself thus with a black man (read:Brute) did so for purely animalistic/sexual/ reasons, something based on the lusts of The Body rather than aspirations of mind or spirit.
    A “decent” white woman didn’t do that sort of thing with a black man, unless she was Fallen, had degenerate tastes, etc.

    For the white man, the contrasting beliefs was that it was understandable that a white man would go the way of the Asian woman, because at least Asian WOMEN had Culture, Refinement and were ALL reputedly Very Smart.
    Nothing degraded there.
    Therefore, those features formed the basis of a “civilized” breed of attraction for a white man because Asian WOMEN (particularly East and Southeast Asian women) possessed an additional, not-vulgar prettiness and femininity, too.

    What’s more, if the Asian woman was chosen for her sexual allure, that was because she had also honed the Sexual Arts, and was irresistible for it.
    (I am thinking of stereotypes about East and South East Asians primarily, although the supposely exotic, erotic feminine — the woman of the Kama Sutra — is strongly South Asian.)

    All standard and offensive stereotypes.

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  396. @ jefe

    You know, it is not easy for 1/2 white people to pass as “white” in front of white people. I think nearly all white people will detect that they (at least 98% of them) are not all white, if white at all.

    Then I must be talking about the 2%. The half white, half Asian people I was referring to are unmistakably white. You would not know they are Asian unless they told you or their Asian mothers picked them up at school.

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  397. Bulanik,
    So, a follow up question to your comments, how do Asian women view themselves relative to white women in terms of intelligence, beauty, class, etc? Based on what you have seen…. I would imagine that there is some confusion if on one hand the stereotype that you described is believed yet at the same time the social hierarchy placing white women on top is also followed. Or am I reading too much into this?

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  398. @ Peanut / Pumpkin,

    You had African-American studies courses offered in High School? If so, you are one of the lucky ones.

    As you can see from this blog, we all need to take African-American / black studies, Asian American studies, Native American studies and Chicano studies courses. We might need to take Jewish American and Arab American studies courses too. Few Americans really learn about the background of their own people.

    Like


  399. @ All

    Open question for the other regulars: why do you post here?

    My main reason for posting here is because I absolutely love Abagond’s writing. If he wrote a book I’d snap it up in an instant.

    My favourite posts are the ones where he talks about books, films, history etc. The posts which unfortunately don’t attract the most traffic!

    @ Abagond

    Many of your views absolutely infuriate me but I can’t stop coming back here because you write so damn well.

    Anyway, I’m curious whether any of of the other regulars come this board for that reason too, or whether they’re mainly here to debate racism.

    I’m not asking this in a negative sense, I’m genuinely curious because I think I’m the odd one out.

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  400. @Kiwi,

    The half white, half Asian people I was referring to are unmistakably white. You would not know they are Asian unless they told you or their Asian mothers picked them up at school.

    then I am very confused by your meaning.

    First you call them “Asians” (albeit with white privilege, white in appearance and name). Then you call them “unmistakeably white”. So, are they white or Asian? Or do you have a different category for them? Is there any allowance for how they might self-identify?

    Since the Asian American female / white male families did not really start taking off until after 1970, when I was growing up the kids who had Asian mothers and non-Asian fathers were generally born before this and had war bride mothers and military or ex-military fathers. There were a few in each year where I went to school (as I lived near military bases or near ex-military families).
    Most of those kids did not exactly look fully white, some were even “unmistakenly Asian” but nearly all of them were “white” in the minds of my classmates. Not only did they have “white” names, but they were socially aligned with white people.

    When I was in High School, I tried to understand why that happened. I was constantly bullied for being the “ch1nk”, but they seemed to escape all of that, even invited to socialize with the other white kids. Somehow the other kids just didn’t think of their Asian ancestry (ie, ignored it). So, I concluded that being accepted as white meant that one had to project a “white” image. I later concluded that families tend to interact with the greater community more on the social identity of the father. Since their war bride mothers were physically separated from their families and did not interact much with the local Asian communities, their children would not get much contact either. I found that most of those kids did not feel any attachment to the Asian American communities.

    That would be different for Asian women whose families are nearby or accessible.

    Later on, I felt a complete seesaw / tug-of-war with both whites and Asians. Asian Americans would tell me that all I had to do was change my name and not tell anyone my background and I probably pass as something else – at least escape being typecast as an Asian. The people telling me this often experienced scant serious racism growing up and simply scoffed at the racist violence I grew up with. As if one can simply forget who and what they are.

    Then I would white people do something else. In the workplace I had a slew of “ch1ng ch0ng”, “oriental” stuff hurled at me daily. I saw the bamboo ceiling phenomenon erecting itself. Right after the white people specifically targetted me and directed all those oriental remarks and comments to me, they would then say, “but, you don’t identify with any of that, do you? You see yourself as a “regular” American”. That kind of treatment pisses me off to the hilt.
    When they laid off workers, they laid off the black workers and me and kept the white staff (except for one gay / HIV+ white guy). When they purged workers, it was obvious who they targetted.

    My point:
    Now I am the first person to express an opinion about the omission of the Asian American experience from nation’s historical narrative. I will be the first to rally about official racist treatment from the government, from media denigration (incl. the Asian male bashing phenomenon). to decry the Model Minority and Perpetual Foreigner stereotypes, to condemn the marginalization in the corporate and political arena. But sometimes you seem to have a beef about those people who have an Asian parent but who (at least in your eyes) are “passing” as white. You seesaw back and forth whether you label them as Asian or white.

    The reason why this is important is your insistence in other posts about how Asians (unlike Jews) cannot be white. But then you say, well, if they can pass as white, have a white sounding name, act white, etc. then they are white (even though you also label them as Asians). It seems like a contradictory statement.

    You also state that Asian women who marry white men gain white privilege and live as white women. It is as if an Asian woman marries a white man, then presto, she becomes white as well as her kids. So can Asians become white, or can they not?

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  401. @ Bulanik

    East Asian men who ALSO had intellectual and inner qualities, so how come they didn’t seem to get a a look-in?

    White men like to put down black and Hispanic men by pointing to racial achievement gaps, as measured by education, family, crime, salary, and so forth. They use the stats as proof that white men are “better” than nonwhite men, yet in every one of those metrics, white men are outperformed by East Asian men. Not to be outdone by the yellow, slanty-eyed bastards, white men resort to cutting them down with school quotas, workplace ceilings, pay gaps, and most importantly, put Asian men in their place by emasculating them with media stereotypes.

    The supremacy of white masculinity is never to be challenged.

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  402. @ Anne

    So, a follow up question to your comments, how do Asian women view themselves relative to white women in terms of intelligence, beauty, class, etc? Based on what you have seen…. I would imagine that there is some confusion if on one hand the stereotype that you described is believed yet at the same time the social hierarchy placing white women on top is also followed. Or am I reading too much into this?

    I don’t think there is a “confusion” as such.

    Doesn’t there have to be Normal People for the Exotic Other to exist?.
    This hierarchy you mention is the outgrowth of domination and subjugation:
    unequal economic, cultural and territorial relationships resulting from Empire.
    I don’t feel that is confusion, but more like “layers”.

    Aren’t Exotic Asians fetished because the stereotypes created by white men portray these women as being more passive, knowing their place as well as how to pamper a man, etc., etc.? Accordingly, to white man under the sway of this fetish, many white women have somehow “lost” their femininity, have become too liberated, etc. Perhaps this makes them threatening — or too equal to be “attractive”.

    Exotic Asian women are not actually “equal” to white women, not racially at least, but they do have qualities that make them desirable.

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  403. @ jefe

    So can Asians become white, or can they not?

    I’ve said before that Asian women cannot become white, even though they gain a lot of white privilege by marrying white men:

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/06/26/the-fourth-enlargement-of-american-whiteness/#comment-240824

    Basically, it all comes down to appearance. If you look white, you will be accepted as a white person. A white person with 1/8 Asian ancestry is just as white as a white person with 1/8 Native ancestry. If they have the looks, then they have privilege.

    The only reason I call a half white, half Asian who looks like a white person “Asian” is because ignoring 50% of their ancestry is nonsensical.

    I think Kartoffel still had a point, though, when he said East Asians would someday be assimilated into whiteness. When the white race eventually runs out of white-looking people to assimilate, East Asians will be the first minorities in line for assimilation, due to the Model Minority stereotype.

    If you walk into a high end restaurant in a rich white neighborhood in California, it’s common to see a crowd of mostly white patrons sprinkled with East Asians. The chefs might be Hispanic and there might also be a black entertainer playing music. Similarly, Silicon Valley’s high tech companies are staffed mainly by whites, with a sizable amount of East Asians and South Asians working underneath them. Blacks and Hispanics also work there as the janitors and cooks.

    While whites may perceive a black man as a criminal, an East Asian man, as an honorary white, may be perceived as a stolen job instead. While the police commonly profile blacks, East Asians are largely spared as nonthreatening model minorities. In my own experience, Asians do not experience nearly as much racism as blacks even though Asians definitely face racism, too.

    I am on the fence when it comes to the subject of Asians and their relationship with whiteness. I agree with Abagond that Asians will continue to be nonwhites for at least the next century. But after that, anything can happen.

    @ Abagond

    What do you think? Could Asians assimilate into a broader whiteness in the far future?

    Like


  404. @Kiwi,

    Basically, it all comes down to appearance. If you look white, you will be accepted as a white person.

    OK, I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you.

    I think it is more like “if you can successfully project a white image, then you can be accepted as a white person, at least sometimes”. Having a phenotype which is subjectively evaluated as closer to what the evaluator delineates as “white” may make it easier, everything else being equal, but that is certainly not the only way or necessarily even the main way in which a person gets racialized.

    That is the mechanism by which people succeed in passing, or pass for some things, not for others. I think it is even possible for an Asian person or black person to “pass” as white if they follow all the rules of the White Club yet have a Jewish person “fail:

    If you have seen the Hasidic Jews and some of the orthodox ones in NY, they will not be able to pass as “white”. A Sikh who adjusts his appearance and behavior to simulate a white person might be able to pass as one; but put on his turban and readjust his behavior and he will not. I also believe it is possible for a “full” Asian person to project a white image to the extent that the evaluator might even mistake him for a “white” person, at least for social purposes (for which purposes race represents anyhow). (This is my opinion; you may disagree.)

    “White Appearance”, given its subjective nature, could also change at any time. This second, you might evaluate someone as “white”; 5 mins. later he will be evaluated as non-white.

    By your definition, you would find it reasonable to place twins sharing the same parents into separate racial categories based on your subjective interpretation of their “appearance”.

    I guess that you would it would be easy to change one’s racial classification by making slight adjustments to appearance, name and behavior. Today can be Latino Carlos Rodriguez, tomorrow white Chuck Rodgers, the next day be Chen Luo-jin and assume a different persona and then a different race.

    Some people can do that without too much problem. I could see how Lou Diamond Phillips could play a white person, Latino, Native American and Asian without shocking anyone’s senses. Kirk Acevedo has a Puerto Rican father and ethnic Chinese mother, meaning that neither of his parents is likely racialized as white. He plays a Latino about half the time, but often he plays a straight up white guy (such as “Carver” in “Dawn of the Planet of the Apes”), but has not yet to date played the role of an Asian. So are you saying that although neither of his parents is white, he is, because that is how he is being interpreted by his evaluators (ie, racialized) considering the roles he is being offered?

    I suspect you think I am being ridiculous, but all I ask you to do is contemplate that there are more than one way in which persons get racialized, and it might change depending on the circumstances, environment, or the company. Subjective interpretation of appearance is only one way, and might not even be the main way. If anything, the person’s actual ethnic background, education and upbringing, language and religion might be just as important factors as well as how they self-identity in particular environments.

    Like


  405. @Bulanik,

    You say that persons who are 1/8 or even 1/4 non-white are still “white” with a touch of exotic.

    That was not true at all 1-2 generations ago. Such a person would not be allowed to marry a white person before 1967:
    (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Racial_Integrity_Act_of_1924)

    Such a person still would have been imprisoned in the Concentration camps (like others who were 1/4 Japanese), they would have been refused entry into the USA despite having citizenship in an unrestricted country (eg, Canada, UK). Many with Chinese ancestry pretended to be Mexican just to enter the USA.

    The Amerasian children born to Americans in Asia after WWII were not initially allowed to enter the USA for racial reasons.

    At what point did these people become “white”? Has the definition of “white” already shifted to include all these people. Kiwi suggests that nowadays persons with 50%, or even more Asian ancestry can now be classified as “white”. If there has been such “progress” in 40-50 years, it looks like Asians in the USA may be “white” sooner than we think.

    Like


  406. @ Jefe

    Such a person still would have been imprisoned in the Concentration camps (like others who were 1/4 Japanese), they would have been refused entry into the USA despite having citizenship in an unrestricted country (eg, Canada, UK). Many with Chinese ancestry pretended to be Mexican just to enter the USA.

    The Amerasian children born to Americans in Asia after WWII were not initially allowed to enter the USA for racial reasons.

    Of course, yes: I see what mean. You’re absolutely right.

    However, I wasn’t referring to the US. I don’t always do!
    I specifically referred to Europe, and gave 2 (British) examples.
    I believe people of this kind of mixture (one eight or one quartre Asian) “function” as white, but their “foreigness” becomes something which is good to know in ways which I thought meant they were nonetheless racialized (i.e. not white).
    We’ve touched on this before, but Cliff Richard comes to mind.
    He seems white, Normal — so to speak — but there was always that whiff of something “racial” about him, something “foreign” that would surface once in a while.

    I can think of 2 examples of how this could manifest in social situations:
    1. a man I once worked with who seemed “white”, but for some reason did really seem white. I never concerned myself with this, personally (coming from a multi-racial background myself) but the black and white people I worked with would say “he’s probably part-black or something”, especially after he was known to have had romances with at least one black woman.
    Later, he mentioned that he was 1/4 Chinese, and after he did it was somehow obvious that was. At that point, he was at pains — at pains — to point out how “different” to black people he was, as though he wanted to distance himself from blackness and them.

    2. one of my friends, herself the child of a Japanese mother and a white English father, remained friends with an ex-b0yfriend, and I’d occasionally bump into him when he visited her. I didn’t know what to make of him…
    After I time, it would grate on me that he’d usually find a way to talk about black people whenever I was present — something my friend also noticed and disliked — as “black people” was never a subject in his normal conversations with her at all. (Her brother had married a mixed-race black woman and she had seen this same thing in that situation, too…)
    My friend’s ex knew right away that I was “mixed” but he wanted to always to turn the conversation to black people as “they” and “them” whenever he saw me.
    Then one day my friend said: “You realize X is part Indian as well, don’t you?” I said “Really? I wondered, but wasn’t sure.”
    She then went on to explain that his paternal grandmother was Indian and his father had kept this a secret, out of shame of some kind and the whole family seemed “infected” by this black Indian in their own bloodline.

    What this seemed to show me was that some mixed white+Asian, although mostly white, weren’t always allowed to be fully white all the time, no matter how much they might have wanted to be.

    Like


  407. @Bulanik,

    thank you for your story.

    My main point wasn’t really the unique situation of the USA (v. the UK, for example) but how much different the 2010s are perceived vs. say, 1940s-1960s.

    It sounds like your anecdotes suggests that modern day UK and USA have been moving in a similar direction. I would say that I would have noticed the same thing in the USA in the 1980s-1990s.

    What Kiwi is suggesting is that the USA has even gone further.

    1/4 Asian people were definitely not white (at least technically) back in the 1940s-1950s Jim Crow era, although they may have been allowed to go to school with white people. Asian roles in movies and TV were played by non-Asian white people.

    By the 1980s, people would likely think they are white with a touch of exotic. Some of them could even play white roles in the media without people thinking of them as being non-white. If it came up, people would know it, and the persons would have to do what you described (ie, think it has a touch of exotic, but such persons still had to be active in establishing white status).

    Kiwi is suggesting something that has taken another quantum leap by the 2010s. To him, 1/4 Asian persons are not even regarded as persons with a “touch of exotic” – they are just simply “white” (and people like Ne-yo are just simply “black”), and there is no need for them to be active in reaffirming their white status or distancing themselves from POC.

    He has moved it 1 1/2 steps forward. According to him, most 1/2 Asians with a white father are now “unmistakeably white” for the most part, and their mothers are socially accepted as “white” even though people may know immediately that they are not of European descent. But even that fact does not prevent them from gaining or enjoying white status. The main thing stopping 1/2 Asians with an Asian father from gaining white status is possibly their Asian sounding surname, which can get blurred too, or even changed to something more acceptable to white people.

    He is suggesting that “perpetual foreigner” does not apply to 1/2 Asians and maybe neither to their Asian mothers if they are married to white men.

    (I am not suggesting that the anecdotal observation is right or wrong. I am just noting what it implies.)

    By this account, it seems like Asians are already,/i> almost “white”. Move this trajectory forward another generation and they will be “white”, at least most of them. Maybe he thinks it is moving towards a Latin American model.

    I do believe that the US govt and US society has a vested interest in keeping Asians viewed as “other” and somehow not white. But Kiwi is suggesting that the trend towards becoming white is already happening and is like an unstoppable force.

    I look at Peru. About 20% of Peruvians have Chinese ancestry, but in general they are not viewed differently from Peruvians without Chinese ancestry. It is just another piece of the mix that made up the modern day population.

    Like


  408. wordynerdygirl said:

    […] Open question for the other regulars: why do you post here? […]

    I don’t know that I qualify as a regular poster, even though I am a daily reader…

    I love this place. Aside from the sheer volume and variety of substantial content that abagond has created and collected, I have found his blog to be a real eye-opener. I was one of those naive souls who believed that the racism problem was indeed substantial diminished until I found this site.

    I find the discussion here enlightening and interesting. The posters are a dynamic bunch of characters. It is far more of a community than most blogs I read.

    Since moving to a rural village that is has no non-white members I don’t get to mix with POC as much as I could when I lived in town. Aside from POC who are members of my family, online is the only place I get to have real discussions with the people directly affected by racism.

    Like


  409. @ jefe

    If you have seen the Hasidic Jews and some of the orthodox ones in NY, they will not be able to pass as “white”. A Sikh who adjusts his appearance and behavior to simulate a white person might be able to pass as one

    The difference is that a white Jew can remove any outwardly signs of nonwhiteness, such as religious attire, and go on to star in lead roles in Hollywood. A brown Sikh, however, would not have the same doors open to him and would more likely be typecast into limited, stereotypical roles, even if he projected a “white image”.

    According to him, most 1/2 Asians with a white father are now “unmistakeably white” for the most part

    Did I say that? Please reread what I wrote.

    But Kiwi is suggesting that the trend towards becoming white is already happening and is like an unstoppable force.

    There are signs of it happening, but I did not say “unstoppable”. I said anything can happen. Assimilation could happen or the Model Minority could give way to the Yellow Peril, reversing the trend.

    Like


  410. @ jefe

    I look at Peru. About 20% of Peruvians have Chinese ancestry, but in general they are not viewed differently from Peruvians without Chinese ancestry. It is just another piece of the mix that made up the modern day population.

    I have heard there are more Peruvians with Filipino ancestry than those with Chinese ancestry. They seem to have completely assimilated, and are no longer seen as a separate group, likely helped by their Hispanicized culture and Catholicism.

    Like


  411. @ bulanik,

    I am mixed (not sure if you are too)…….several generations of mixes, different groups. This discussion everyone is having is interesting to me. The perspective of this issue is different from someone who is mixed than it is from someone who is not. At least it seems that way to me.

    Like


  412. @ Bulanik

    Aren’t Exotic Asians fetished because the stereotypes created by white men portray these women as being more passive, knowing their place as well as how to pamper a man, etc., etc.? Accordingly, to white man under the sway of this fetish, many white women have somehow “lost” their femininity, have become too liberated, etc. Perhaps this makes them threatening — or too equal to be “attractive”.

    http://benefsanem.blogspot.com/2010/07/i-want-to-be-black.html

    biff, who is married to an Asian woman, is a white man who has described white women “losing their femininity” in the exact way you explained. White male Asian fetishists consider white women to be “tainted” by feminism, and thus seek out more “traditional”, “feminine”, and “submissive” women of other races who “know their place” next to men. This assuages their fears of losing control over women and allows them to massage their male egos in a racially objectifying manner.

    This phenomenon turns the stereotype promoted by white men of the Asian male sexist completely on its head. The stereotype is nothing more than a reflection of how white men feel about women, as they project their own patriarchal sentiments onto Asian men. Randy, who is also married to an Asian woman, has done just this before. In their quest to sexually appropriate Asian women, white men emasculate Asian men and simultaneously paint themselves as the white knight rescuing the Asian woman from the oppressive Asian man.

    biff and Randy are opposite sides of the same coin. Their racist and sexist views of Asian women and Asian men complementarily expose an important aspect of the intersection between white male racism and sexism.

    Like


  413. @Anne

    The perspective of this issue is different from someone who is mixed than it is from someone who is not.

    Yes, definitely.

    Like


  414. @Kiwi,

    You said “some”. Sorry that I exaggerated that to mean more than just some. But I got the impression that you thought it was very widespread.

    I do agree that for a few, if they can project a white enough image to a white person, they will likely mistake them for some kind of white (even one with a touch of exotic) rather than someone who is part non-white. Even some of the ones I went to school with, they dated whites, socialized as white, and most of the students didn’t think about them as being something other than white unless you really pressed them (they might say, “Oh yeah, I think I knew that.” and then go on). But, I always felt that, other things being equal (for example, appearance wise), it was generally easier for the guys with white fathers to be integrate into the white circles than the ones with Asian fathers.

    BTW, some Sikhs are fair and might be able to pass as some kind of European if they act white enough. My point was that there are many factors that cause a person to be racialized or not.

    When I went to Australia, I received a slightly dfferent impression of the Asian-whjite kids compared to what I saw in USA. I felt that in the USA, there is much more pressure to be acceptable to white people. Maybe it is the model minority thing operating. In Australia, Asians are the largest non-white people, and they are not used as a wedge between whites and other non-whites. Most white Australians see Asians every day, but not necessarily Aboriginal peoples as much. I got the impression that Eurasian Australians had a lot more opportunity (with less stigma) to mix with Asian Australians. The pressures in the USA are different. There is a lot more pressure from white people in the USA for Asians to dissociate from blacks.

    (If wordynerdygirl was listening, that is an *impression* only. I am not trying to make any bold insight about Australia.)

    Like


  415. @ Herneith

    There’s a lot of the Asian brain drain at America’s top high tech companies. What the stats aren’t telling us is that they face a ceiling at work, just like other nonwhites, so the management and leadership are much whiter than the hiring numbers would suggest. One of the funniest things I noticed is that even though Asian men vastly outnumber Asian women at these places, the white-Asian interracial disparity still exists. White men remain in control over Asian men and Asian women, at work and in the bed!

    Like


  416. A few years ago, I befriended a wonderful commenter on here and I want to wish her a Happy Birthday! You know who you are, love!❤

    oi58.tinypic.com/2isid6f.jpg

    Like


  417. Oops, somehow the forgot the http part of the link. Let’s try it again.

    Like


  418. This is a representative quote from the link provided by Herneith:

    US data shows eBay’s workforce at 61% white, 24% Asian, 7% black, 5% Hispanic, 1% multi-ethnic, and 1% other. For “tech” jobs at eBay, 55% of employees are Asian and 40% are white, with numbers for both black and Hispanic employees hovering to 2%.

    I *suspect* the management positions are closer 90% white, 5% Asian, Black and Hispanic each less than 1%. I suspect that

    The average educational level of the Asians there are likely higher than the whites.

    I can imagine working there:
    – Senior management – 90% white and male
    – Programs / systems staff – mostly Asian males
    – Hispanics – more “custodial” staff, doing office assistant stuff, printing, buildings and grounds, cafeteria, etc.
    – Blacks – noticeably almost absent.

    Does anyone personally have friends / family working at those places that can vouch for that?

    Like


  419. @Kiwi,

    What the stats aren’t telling us is that they face a ceiling at work, just like other nonwhites, so the management and leadership are much whiter than the hiring numbers would suggest.

    I think the stats are implying that.

    Like


  420. @Kiwi and Jefe:

    If you notice, the article gave a breakdown of their staff by racialization/ethnicity. they did not reveal how many of these racialized people were in management. I suspect that the ‘bamboo’ ceiling can be applied here. If they had a high percentage of racialized people in upper management, they would use that as a promotional and selling point. Notice the dearth of people of African descent in these companies?

    Like


  421. @ jefe

    Does anyone personally have friends / family working at those places that can vouch for that?

    I have a brother at Apple and your assessment was pretty much spot on. He’s run into the Bamboo Ceiling like my other family members, though he seems to be in some semi-denial over it, which is typical of East Asian brain drain people.

    As for the blacks and Hispanics in tech, it’s important to note that many, if not most of them are also brain drain, like the Asians alongside them. The same goes for some of the whites. Many of those in tech are brain drain as well.

    The food is prepared by professional chefs who graduated from top culinary schools, so they are not as Hispanic as one would expect. Instead the less skilled positions, like janitors and security guards, tend to be more Hispanic.

    The top positions are pretty much white, male, and a lotta gray hair.

    Receptionists at the front desk tend to be white women, commonly blonde.

    As usual, the most common interracial couple is white men/Asian women.

    Very, very few women.

    I think the demographics are a reflection of education levels. Education is strongly influenced by one’s socioeconomic status, which in turn is shaped by modern history. Whites, East Asians, and South Asians fill the tech positions because whites are the wealthiest and East Asians and South Asians are brain drains. The top positions are taken by whites because they are dominant. Blacks, Hispanics, Natives, and Southeast Asians are largely missing because respectively, each has a modern history of slavery, conquest, genocide, and war.

    Like


  422. @ Herneith

    Notice the dearth of people of African descent in these companies?

    I already knew before you shared the stats. The overwhelming majority of black Americans’ ancestors came to this country as slaves and once freed, were kept down under Jim Crow. Even today, blacks face color-blind racism. Consequently, blacks have accumulated little wealth, live in some of the most disadvantaged neighborhoods, and their kids attend crappy schools staffed by teachers who don’t care. Given that the odds are stacked against them, I would hardly expect blacks to be flooding the best schools and applying to high tech jobs en masse. Even if hiring were truly non-discriminatory against blacks, structural inequalities would still exist. It has nothing to do with black people’s genetics or culture, as white racists like to say. It has everything to do with their background, and yes, even ongoing racism.

    Like


  423. @ Leigh204
    (omg)

    Thank you for the birthday greetings!

    Like


  424. @ Anne, you said:

    I am mixed (not sure if you are too)…….several generations of mixes, different groups. This discussion everyone is having is interesting to me. The perspective of this issue is different from someone who is mixed than it is from someone who is not. At least it seems that way to me.

    I concur 100% with you and Jefe on this
    Pretty much here several generations of different mixes with me, too: it never fails to surprise me how perspective will differ (for that reason alone) from another individual who doesn’t have that kind of background…

    Like


  425. @Bulanik & jefe,
    I have found that I tend to look at everything analytically as if being a referee at a game trying to figure out who is wrong. And yet at the same time I tend to pull away from the argument if it gets too heated because I could be talking about cousins (a few generations removed). I see the fight for a pure identity or pure “race” as something that would only concern people in some distant land and not me. So I tend to disregard racists as crazy and delusional. And in most cases I will admit to pursuing a compromise for the sake of peace and everyone’s benefit instead of fighting for what is right in an absolute sense. So, that may explain why most of posts here are either some form of bad humor or just a brief comment.

    Like


  426. @Kiwi

    The food is prepared by professional chefs who graduated from top culinary schools, so they are not as Hispanic as one would expect.

    How about the dishwashers? The ones who wash and clean the vegetables and clean the kitchen?

    When I worked for a global consulting firm on Park Avenue in New York, there was a very very strong racial stratification system. Asians were in the back office systems area. Blacks and Puerto Ricans in the mailroom. Every single senior manager was white male.

    Like


  427. @Kiwi
    you repeat that interracial couples with east asians and whites almost always have a white man, asian female. You explain this by: whites have control over asians. I totally agree with you, and being white myself this hurts me maybe as hard as it hurts you, because I have great respect for the east asian race.
    But what do you say about the fact that interracial couples between blacks and whites as well as blacks and asians almost always have a black man and a white/asian female? I say blacks have control over whites and asians. This the racial hierarchy in our world today: on top blacks, in the middle whites and on bottom east asians.

    Like


  428. @ Erik Sieven

    Most of black Americans’ white ancestry comes from white men. That was introduced through slave rape. I’m pretty sure who’s on top. Are you?

    Like


  429. @ Erik Sieven

    Most of black Americans’ Asian ancestry also comes from Asian men. I think the modern interracial disparities are due to stereotypes. Blacks are “too masculine”, Asians are “too feminine”, and whites are “just right”.

    Like


  430. @ jefe

    It is almost like America has a racial caste system.

    Like


  431. @ Erik Sieven

    The majority of white Americans’ Asian, Black, Hispanic, and Native ancestry comes from Asian, Black, Hispanic, and Native women, not men. White men have been getting around, don’t you think?

    Like


  432. @ jefe

    Every single senior manager was white male.

    This is what I see all over California. Non-Hispanic whites already make up the minority of the population, but they remain firmly at the top of every major institution. This includes the media, the schools, the housing market, the high tech companies, the police, the government, the banks, the hospitals, the labor market, etc. Whites are the dominant group and Asians work under them as professionals while blacks and Hispanics work as laborers.

    Since California will be one of the first areas in the US to have a very small white population relative to an ever expanding Latino and Asian population, we’ll begin to see some of the early signs of racial stratification that Eduardo Bonilla-Silva described. Like Abagond said, the white Hispanics in this state, however many there are, will probably be the first ones to assimilate into whiteness. Ironically, they benefit the most from affirmative action and white privilege when they mark “Hispanic/Latino” on their college applications.

    Like


  433. @ jefe

    Every single senior manager was white male.

    This is what I see all over California. Non-Hispanic whites already make up the minority of the population, but they remain firmly at the top of every major institution. This includes the media, the schools, the housing market, the high tech companies, the police, the government, the banks, the hospitals, the labor market, etc. Whites are the dominant group and Asians work under them as professionals while blacks and Hispanics work as laborers.

    Since California will be one of the first areas in the US to have a very small white population relative to an ever expanding Latino and Asian population, we’ll begin to see some of the early signs of racial stratification that Eduardo Bonilla-Silva described. Like Abagond said, the white Hispanics in this state, however many there are, will probably be the first ones to assimilate into whiteness. Ironically, they benefit the most from affirmative action and white privilege when they mark “Hispanic/Latino” on their college applications.

    Like


  434. @ Abagond

    There’s a new movie coming out in late October called ‘Dear White People’. Check out this preview article:

    (http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20483133_20846400,00.html)

    Like


  435. @Kiwi
    But for the last hundred years interracial couples between black males and white females. The same pattern can be observed in every european country, and there is no slavery history. One can expect that this pattern will persist much longer than the slavery system did.
    Also what have interracial couples between asians and blacks have to do with slavery?
    And if we talk about rape we all know current interracial rape statistics

    Like


  436. @ Erik Sieven

    The explanation is stereotyping. Stereotypes are transmitted through the media and they mold our ideas of what is socially acceptable, such as certain forms of interracial pairings.

    Like


  437. @Pumpkin/peanut

    Yeah, where does this “For the last hundred years ….” stuff comes from?

    Like


  438. @Kiwi,

    Prior to WWII, most of the introduction of Asian ancestry into the white and black populations came through Asian males. There simply were not enough Asian females around to mate with whites until the late 60s.

    After the war brides act was extended to include Asian wives, whites could bring any Asian women they wanted to the USA. Non-military Asian men had to face quotas. I think that is a factor why white men think they own Asian women.

    Like


  439. @ pumpkin

    Asian women are portrayed as spoils of war by these same white men.

    Like in “The Last Samurai”, Tom Cruise goes to Asia, kills an Asian man, then screws the guy’s wife. Or in “The Wolverine”, Hugh Jackman kills the Asian woman’s father, grandfather, then “saves” her from her oppressive Asian ex boyfriend and screws her. Or in “Outcast”, Nicholas Cage is going to star two white male/Asian female couples despite having had a half-Asian son with an Asian wife and having “promised” to promote Asian men in movies.

    I couldn’t agree more that white men are hypocritical when it comes to interracial relationships. I still can’t get over how white men passed laws allowing themselves to bring over Asian wives when Asian men were not even allowed by law to marry white women. I’ve read about Asian men who put up with white men getting their knickers in a twist when they see us dating one of “their” women yet white men are the ones dating Asian women in droves and we have to tolerate that every day, otherwise us Asian males are made out to be the sexist and racist ones.

    Sometimes I feel like white men are overgrown, spoiled brats. They take and take and never give then cry when they don’t get the best of everything and blame their failures on nonwhite men while taking nonwhite women for themselves. Ironically, most nonwhite women find that attractive and that’s the sad fact.

    Like


  440. White men are always given the benefit of the doubt, by both white women and nonwhite women. But nonwhite men have to prove themselves before they’re even considered by their own race. Black women are probably the only exception.

    Like


  441. @ pumpkin

    Thanks for sharing the South Pacific musical. I looked into it and am not surprised by the scene. Ironically, something tells me that if the white man had been a black man instead, the Asian girl probably would have screamed and run away. Similarly, I doubt the white man would have drooled over an equally pretty black girl.

    Black women are too loyal in my opinion to Black men, undeservedly so in some cases. That loyalty isn’t reciprocated.

    Like every day, I had my fill of seeing platoons of Asian women with white men and none of the reverse pairing today. But what made me do a double take this day was when I saw a white male/Asian female couple walking right next to a black male/white female couple. It always enervates me to see how people’s racist dating preferences fit perfectly with society’s racial prejudices.

    It’s very strange because it has nothing to do with me, personally or racially, but when I see a black man with a white woman, I feel almost the same way I do when I see an Asian woman with a white man. My automatic assumption is that both people in the pairing are racist and that the nonwhite partner probably has many bad things to say to say about the opposite sex of their own race. I wouldn’t hold it past them and I am willing to bet that more often than not, I am right.

    Like


  442. @ pumpkin

    I’m eating you for breakfast tomorrow

    LOL! You are not the first friend to tell me that.

    Like


  443. I wanted to share my other nicknames, which are also food-related, but I don’t want to give away my real life nickname here.

    Like


  444. @Pumpkin peanut

    time stamp is wrong, it says sunday, but its still saturday.

    He uses UTC. Sometimes it is Sunday where I am, but the time stamp is Saturday.

    Like


  445. @Pumpkin peanut

    South Pacific

    You know that Frances Nuyen had a Vietnamese Father and French mother. She appeared in the Joy Luck Club 36 years later.

    Juanita Hall was African-American (not Asian) but played Asian roles.

    Like


  446. @Kiwi,

    I still can’t get over how white men passed laws allowing themselves to bring over Asian wives when Asian men were not even allowed by law to marry white women.

    Not just not allowed to marry white women due to the Anti-miscegenation laws, but also not allowed to bring over Asian wives due to the Exclusion act, or severely limited by the draconian quotas post WWII.

    Yet white men received an exception to all of this and brought Asian wives to the USA. You see Asian men were prevented from getting both white and Asian wives, but white men could have either.

    Like


  447. @Pumpkin

    Is it me or do a lot of Native Americans nowadays look kinda white? I was watching a documentary about wounded knee and the Lakota people people interviewed for it in probably the 90s looked a lot lighter than the Native Americans in the past

    Like


  448. I’m really p*ssed off right now. I lent one of my cousins a good deal amount of money on the condition she’d pay me back as soon as she could. She had borrowed money in the past, but she always paid me back promptly. She had lost her job recently and had trouble finding a new one and she cried she had rent and bills to pay. The big softie that I am, I lent her money. Imagine my surprise when I learned she will be going to Hawaii for several weeks! She bought the plane tickets and everything. I let my cousin have it telling her her priorities were messed up. And now, some of my other relatives are taking her side because I’m not as understanding as I should be. Oh, hell no. Now why do I feel like I’ve been played? I know some of you will reading this and think I’m a fool for lending money, but I was raised to help others in need. Anyway, please no criticism. I just needed a place to vent. Okay, end rant.

    Like


  449. There is an unwritten rule about lending money to family or friends. It is nice if they pay you back, but never expect it. Think of it as a gift.

    Like


  450. @ Jefe:

    My cousin profusely thanked me for helping her out and she swore up and down that I would get my money back. Now when she posted a pic of her tickets to Hawaii soon after, how am I supposed to react?

    Like


  451. @peanut Pumpkin

    so then who could asian men marry?

    Most did not. Until the 1940s, and even to some extent to the 1960s, Asian American communities had a lot of aging or old bachelors.

    In places like NY or SF, they could visit brothels, but not so in places like the South or midwest.

    Please watch “Eat a Bowl of Tea” (1989). It takes place in New York in 1948, the year after the Asian war brides act (1947) was passed. You will see a community of 80-90% men that were old bachelors or separated from their wives for many decades. Yet white men got an exception and got to bring their Asian wives to the USA.

    Like


  452. @Leigh,

    Treat it as a lesson learned.

    Like


  453. http://www.amazon.ca/Bury-My-Heart-Wounded-Knee/dp/0805086846

    http://www.amazon.ca/Spirit-Crazy-Horse-Peter-Matthiessen/dp/0140144560/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1409510939&sr=1-1&keywords=in+the+spirit+of+crazy+horse

    Right now there is a push for a national inquiry into murdered and missing First Nations women here in Canada:

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/murdered-aboriginal-women-what-to-know-about-a-national-public-inquiry-1.2748983

    The two books are good starting points to reading about the First Nations people from a historical standpoint. It will give you an idea as to what they have gone through historically. Keep in mind that this is just the tip of the iceberg!

    http://www.amazon.ca/Black-Indians-A-Hidden-Heritage/dp/0689311966

    Like


  454. @ Herneith

    Thank you for recommending those books, especially the Peter Matthiessen one; I haven’t seen that one before.

    @ Pumpkin

    Have to say that what I learned about First Nation women (Canada) came as a surprise at the time. Firstly because when I met them I was pretty young, and thought they were “whites”, though they looked mixed somehow, and second, I’d never encountered any literature written by First Nation or Native American, women before.

    I don’t believe that I understood the profoundly spiritual nature of the culture and “knowing” that was being shown to me at the time.
    Nevertheless, 2 factors seemed about the women in these nations stood out again and again. This was:
    1. the imposition of patrilineal culture on the different peoples by the incoming Europeans, something echoed in online articles, for example:
    …the balance between women and men’s roles typically existed in pre-contact Aboriginal societies, where women and men had different, but complementary roles. Many First Nations were matrilineal, meaning that descent – wealth, power, and inheritance — were passed down through the mother…
    ….although Indigenous women do not share a single culture, they do have a common colonial history. The imposition of patriarchy has transformed Indigenous societies by diminishing Indigenous women’s power, status and material circumstances.

    And, this:
    2. Classing the indigenous women of the Americas into a binary:
    The Virtuous Princess (who helps the European by simultaneously betraying her her own people) and, “The Sqaw”, the sexually deviant, prostitute-like Native woman.
    (http://indigenousfoundations.arts.ubc.ca/home/community-politics/marginalization-of-aboriginal-women.html)

    There are lots of books to choose from; one researcher that writes about this subject from the female PoV is Barbara Alice Mann.

    http://www.amazon.com/Daughters-Mother-Earth-American-Yesterday/dp/0275985628/ref=pd_sim_b_5?ie=UTF8&refRID=1REJ8WQFVA5QEJEQYW4R

    Like


  455. @ pumpkin

    so then who could asian men marry? Black women? I have to say, I feel like throughout history Black women have always just been seen as a last option for all men. Not saying this was the case with Asian men, but generally speaking.

    – what are your thoughts? I have to admit, although I can identify with some of the stuff Asian men go through in terms of being desexualized etc. one thing that makes it more difficult for me to identify more with asian men is the fact that for some Asian men, Black women are the absolute last choice, despite going through similar struggles in the romantic/dating arena.

    If America were a truly post-racial, color-blind society, we would expect most Asian men to end up with white women. Amazingly, nearly all Asian men end up with Asian women, mostly because they prefer their own. If not that, they remain single and date younger Asian women as they get older. When Asian men date out, they usually wind up with white women because they’re the majority. The same should apply to Asian women. If everyone truly were not racist, most Asian women would be with white men as well. In fact, most Asian women still end up with Asian men.

    But what upsets Asian men is not that Asian women are dating out. It’s that Asian women are dating out a lot more than Asian men AND the racial stereotypes that underlie the disparity. In a truly post-racial, color-blind society, both sexes of any race should be dating out in equal numbers. We know that’s not the case, so when Asian women or white men who date each other think they’re “open-minded” or “not racist” for pairing up in the most overrated interracial relationship, obviously Asian men are going to call BS.

    Like


  456. @ pumpkin

    I remember learning that on many dating sites, when men list their racial preferences on their profiles, they’ll list every race except black, as if they think nobody will notice. I’m guessing they do it to give the impression that they’re open-minded. I know what you’re saying about black women being treated as the “last option”. Some white males have left comments on this blog that match what you said.

    I’ve also read comments on the Web left by black men who wanted to date Asian women that said they were shocked by the plethora of profiles stating an exclusive preference for white men. Some of the black men said they felt sorry for Asian men because Asian women seemed to prefer white men over them. Sadly, there is a lot of truth to that.

    Like


  457. It’s like black people r hated all over the world.Black women r also viewed negatively especially I think it has to do with racism and sexism.

    Like


  458. @ pumpkin

    jefe and I have discussed the Asian interracial disparity at length and have come up with many possible explanations and contributing factors. I want to learn more about the black interracial disparity, especially where it comes from. Many of the mechanisms that might make sense of the Asian interracial disparity (eg: white patriarchy, imperialism in Asia) don’t seem to apply as readily to the black interracial disparity. There’s also the added difference that black women are simultaneously desexualized and hypersexualized, unlike Asian men, who are completely desexualized. Another layer of complication is that the stereotypes have changed over time. For example, Asian men used to be stereotyped as sexual predators and rapists of white women (sound familiar?) but today, they’re seen as dateless nerds. I know that black men and women married out at equal rates up until the end of the anti-miscegenation laws. I also learned that the peak of the black interracial disparity was around 1980, whereas the Asian interracial disparity peaked around the mid 2000s. Do you know what might be the origins of the disparity?

    Like


  459. Welll, Pumpkin, thank you and you’re welcome, too.

    Like


  460. @ pumpkin

    Natives historically had more men than women. This was due to the men fighting and dying in wars against white settlers. As colonizers, Europeans were mostly men because conditions were too dangerous to bring over women. This resulted in white men taking Native women as spoils of war.

    African slaves were mostly men due to them being favored over women as workers. Despite this gender imbalance, black women were sexually appropriated by white men and raped because they were the property of these men. Meanwhile, black men were feared as threats to white women.

    Asians who came to America were nearly all men, working as laborers. America’s wars and military occupations in East and Southeast Asia entailed white men raping Asian women and using them as prostitutes. They brought back Asian women as wives while Asian men in America were dying single.

    Like


  461. @ jefe:

    @Leigh,

    Treat it as a lesson learned.

    Yes, the hard way.

    @ pumpkin:

    @ leigh,

    that isn’t a cousin that i would lend money to again though. But at the end of the day from personal experience, it’s family and forgive and just move on. Now you know that lending money to her isn’t something you can do again and if she asks why tell her because you felt that as a family member it wasn’t right for her to take money that you offered her because you thought she was struggling and then go on a trip to hawaii tell her that hurt you very much and from on if you can’t trust her to be honest about your money, then you’re going to have find other ways to help her get on her feet, but not lending money. if she needs a place to live, maybe offer to set her up with someone or help her find a job, but if this is going to be a habit, just don’t lend money anymore. But don’t let it ruin the family dynamic, forgive it and just do things differently next time.

    i also agree with jefe, as a rule don’t expect money to come back when it’s relatives. So don’t give so much that you know you’ll miss it if it doesn’t come back.

    The money wasn’t really the issue per se because even though my cousin had borrowed money from me in the past, and she paid it back right away, I told her I wasn’t in a rush. I guess I was just surprised and ticked to see her posting her tickets to Hawaii so soon after she sobbed she was short with her rent money and bill payments. I did talk with her again last night and she explained the money for those tickets came from a friend of hers who OWED her money. Again, as I mentioned above, her priorities were messed up. Oh, well. I know better the next time.

    Like


  462. Natives historically had more men than women.

    I meant Natives had more women than men. *sigh*

    Like


  463. @ Herneith:

    Right now there is a push for a national inquiry into murdered and missing First Nations women here in Canada:

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/murdered-aboriginal-women-what-to-know-about-a-national-public-inquiry-1.2748983

    Yes, Herneith. That is very true especially coming from ‘Peg city. Recently, there was a vigil held for a murdered 15 year old Aboriginal girl and for all the missing and murdered Aboriginal women. The poor child’s body was wrapped in a bag and dumped in our local river. My city has the highest Aboriginal population. Here, First Nations people are treated like African-Americans in the States. They’ve been treated like garbage simply because they’re Aboriginals. I have heard from people’s mouths that “a good Indian is a dead Indian”. How horrible is that?

    Like


  464. @ Sharina:

    I remember you said you watched Korean dramas. May I suggest a period drama from the Philippines that was hugely popular a few years ago? It’s a historical fictional story of a princess turned slave who is destined to be warrior queen. Some parts of the story is cheesy, but still very engaging. It’s called Amaya.

    There are subtitles so you don’t have to worry what the characters are saying.

    http://www.viki.com/videos/132004v-amaya-episode-1

    Like


  465. Have you all noticed that the gender disparity for blacks and Asians reversed after 1980?

    You would find more white men married to black women before that. Likewise, you would find more Asian men with white or black women than the reverse (Asian women with white or black men).

    When doing your analysis, maybe it would help to figure out what changed in the 60s-70s that caused it to reverse.

    Like


  466. Kiwi:
    if you really want to understand interracial dating you should start to understand that there are are real biological differences between the races. And you should simply forget the word “racism”. You should also forget the word “stereotype”.
    Consider two populations: one has – ONE AVERAGE – slimmer wrists, smaller hands, less body hair, is build more gracile, is shorter. The other bigger, taller, more sturdy, more body hair. Which one do you think will attract females more?
    Do understand the specific differences you could also google for “neoteny” or “granulation” or “domestication” in anthropological contexts.

    Like


  467. @ pumpkin

    Thanks for the information.

    @ Erik Sieven

    If physical features, not racism, explain the interracial disparities, why do white people explicitly exclude Asian men and black women instead of just people who have certain features? I’ve discovered that many whites who refuse to date these two groups have specific “no Asian guys” or “no black girls” policies when it comes to dating.

    Also, how do you explain why both disparities reversed over such a short time?

    Like


  468. @ Erik Sieven:

    That must explain white mens (especially Irish ones’), small genitals. Are you Irish Erik? Yes there are indeed differences among the races. Being ‘short’ changed, the white man in particular has been pi$$ed off ever since. Hence his striving for supremacy. What you lack for in one thing you can make up for others I guess. Good evening!

    Like


  469. @Hernith

    That’s pretty stupid. I never saw anything important about penis size but then again I’m asexual and the thought of anyone’s genitals disgusts me.

    In any case I always thought white supremacy was the result of fear that blacks would like take all their wealth and privilege and undermine their authority.

    It would discourage blacks through violence/coercion from opposing whites and leave the status quo unperturbed

    Like


  470. @Herneith
    Yes being short changes, but being gracile or sturdy does not change over history. Anyway we talk about the differnces between living populations.
    @ Kiwi
    Well you are of course right, there are cultural aspects one has to observe, too, when discussing racial differences in dating. Especially people use every day heuristics when it comes to dating, the same way we all do reagarding most other things too. When an object of class A has the attribute a with a propabiliy of say 90% people just take it for granted that every object in class A has this attribute. All humans do that when it comes to decisicions they have to do. But the basis is still real biological differences.
    I do not think that differences in interracial dating really changed that much over the time. Especially I do not think that you could compare the situation before the 1960 witn today. Today we have a “liberated market” as partner market, and people can decide along there real preferences. Earlier most people in this world lives in homogenous countries, and those who lived in multiracial societies lived in separated multircial societies. Also love marriage was not not as common as today, but even in western countries some kind of arranged marriage was rather the standard.

    Like


  471. @erik,
    You’re implying that there is a natural physical preference in humans that influences their choice in mates. And while it may be true to the extent that men prefer younger looking, childlike partners, the influence of society on what physical traits are associated with the perception of youth cannot be ignored. For example, the theory of neoteny claims that Asian people have the most childlike features however the beauty industry has a clear bias toward Northern European models or models with similar features. It would be hard to believe that in a society where people are constantly exposed to pictures of one specific set of physical features as the hallmark of beauty that they wouldn’t at some point be influenced by it. Even on a subconscious level, seeing the same “face” over and over will eventually make someone think that “face” is in fact attractive.

    Like


  472. @ Anne

    But what I find most odd about what Erik is saying is that black women, probably than any other “race”, are extremely diverse in appearance and phenotype.

    I doubt if I am alone when I say I have seen every kiind of feature, whether be it of face, skin- or eye-colouring, hair texture, body type, and so on — and all belonging to women who might be considered “black”.

    Erik is just looking for any reason, pseudo-scientific or not, to justify his racism.

    Like


  473. @ Leigh
    @ Herneith

    Thanks to you both for mentioning Canada’s inquiry into murdered and missing First Nations women. It’s not something that reaches the international news.
    Personally, I only started to hear about it when commenters touched on it a few years back.

    Related to that is the disproportionately high rape (and rape-murder) rate for this population of Canada’s women. This high incidence of their rape is historical.
    It’s something tied to the very start of North America’s colonisation, when the likes of Amerigo Vespucci not only targetted the women in these territories for sexual assault, but justified and excuse their rape by him and his men by writing about these women as creatures who had anyway “defiled and prostituted themselves”…

    Contrast that with the way that kind of violence is shown and reported in African or Asian countries. South Africa has a rape “epidemic” and rape in India is a “phenomenon”.

    The way violence of this kind is reported in African or Asian in the international news — if you can get it — puts it in a context seems that kind of puts the violence as culturally sanctioned raw, primitive savagery.
    As if it is different from or WORSE than, rapes elsewhere.

    Also, when words like “epidemic” and “endemic” is used, it pushes the image of disease-like behaviour of the perpetrators in that culture.

    I noticed this on Abagond’s thread about India: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2007/08/17/737/#comment-250898

    Like


  474. typos: “excused”

    correcton: The way violence in the African or Asian contexts is shown in the international news — if you can get it — place that violence as culturally sanctioned raw, primitive savagery.

    Like


  475. A commenter earlier mentioned Pocahontas.

    I am not sure if Abagond has done a post on her, or around her story?

    Like


  476. Earlier most people in this world lives in homogenous countries

    Earlier means pre-1960?

    Like


  477. @ jefe, yes I would say so. Of course there have been historical mixes (indoeuropeans invasion of europe) but concerning the continetal faces we know today I would say up to 1960 the vast majority of people worldwide lived in homgenous countries. Of course the amercis have been an exception. But the americas had a quite small share of the world population and in the americas most societies were separated along racial lines as I said above.
    @Bulanik actually I think racial differences in dating have more to do with racial preferences of women than racial differences of men. As Abagond has stated men tend to be “dogs” which means they do not distinguish that much betweenthe races. Women distinguish much more. Thats why you see so extremely few couples with black women or white women and east asian men, and on the other side so extremly many couples with men witn westafrican ancestry and white women (a little less withe ast asian women)

    Like


  478. @ Erik Sieven

    How about this? I probably meet and know more Asian women than most people on this blog do, and I can say with utmost confidence that many Asian women only date white men but will never date a black man. How does that square with your assertion that black men are seen as more attractive than white men? Given the number of Asian women chasing after white men, where are the Asian women chasing after black men? I thought black men are viewed more favorably. I’ve personally spoken to and asked Asian women about their preferences, and none have ever stated a preference for black men. There is no shortage of Asian women, however, who prefer white men. Why is that?

    Like


  479. @ Erik Sieven

    Decades ago, Asian men used to be stereotyped as sexual aggressors and rapists of white women, just like how black men are seen today. People from that time are still alive, so does biology really explain why Asian men are seen as feminine nerds today? Can human evolution occur in less than one generation, with one billion men suddenly going from virile, sexual predators to asexual weaklings in a lifetime?

    Like


  480. @ Kiwi:

    I’m sure you’ll appreciate this…or not. lol! Here’s a comedic sketch turn-around that sounds so familiar to me.

    (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCAQP7OJ9ls#t=51)

    Like


  481. @ leigh204

    That was really funny! Thanks for sharing that vid. I like the way it parodies Asian fetish but in reality, the way “white fetish” manifests among Asian women is very different from what was shown.

    I really wish Abagond would do a post on the Asian (and black) interracial disparity. But in order for it to make sense, he would first have to do posts on gendered stereotypes of blacks and Asians because the two are intertwined. The origins of the stereotypes go back over two centuries, and have a lot of complicated history to them.

    Like


  482. The cynic in me says that Asian women who exclusively seek white men see them as nothing more than secure meal tickets and a fast-tracked admission into the Great White American/Western European Collective™. But I digress…

    Decades ago, Asian men used to be stereotyped as sexual aggressors and rapists of white women, just like how black men are seen today. People from that time are still alive, so does biology really explain why Asian men are seen as feminine nerds today? Can human evolution occur in less than one generation, with one billion men suddenly going from virile, sexual predators to asexual weaklings in a lifetime?

    Chalk it up to a cultural shift in which Americans somehow saw Asian men as no longer threatening, at least in a sexual context. Could it have been the average Asian’s increased focus on scholastics in preparation for STEM industry work, as opposed to the fields, fishing ships and railroads? How did we get from THERE to HERE?

    There’s also this link people associate between criminality and “aggressive” sexuality – the more criminally-inclined you appear, the more promiscuous and deviant people assume you to be. Conversely, the more educated you appear, the fainter that connection appears until, as a scholarly-looking person, that connection disappears from view. Til this day, there’s still a strong link people have black criminals and the “Mandingo” persona, whereas the average black college professor is rarely looked on as a voracious violator of white purity and virtue.

    @ pumpkin

    After a sustained psycho-sexual assault the likes of such, the grievously wounded black male psyche sees the white woman as the ultimate trophy, the grand “F**K YOU!” to a white society that treated black women like broodmares and sex toys while placing white women on a pedestal, perched out of reach of the black man yet held up as the golden standard of beauty and desirability, like a cake behind glass.

    Interesting way of looking at it. But I can’t help but think black men are still being given a bill of goods on that front.

    Why?

    Because nearly every white woman I’ve personally seen with a black man looks like the rejects and the leftovers that white men didn’t want – too pudgy or outright obese, pasty skin complexion, an overall 3 or 4 on the 10 scale. They’re usually from the working classes or lower – it’s rare to see a moderately attractive white woman with a working-class black man, whereas a stunningly beautiful black woman might not have so many qualms about being with him.

    BTW, I read Kola Boof’s essay and as you’ve said, I don’t agree with everything in it. Personally, it’s another form of separatism that’s encouraged among Africans, “mulattos” and other peoples with notable black ancestry to prevent them from working with one another towards greater, world-shattering goals. And it insures that mainstream American/European society has nothing to fear from them.

    Like


  483. @ leigh204

    GREAT video. One of the funniest I’ve seen for a long time.

    @ kiwi

    I think those post ideas are excellent.

    Like


  484. @ Mack Lyons

    Chalk it up to a cultural shift in which Americans somehow saw Asian men as no longer threatening…

    How bizarre indeed it is that during the 70s, America was blasting the g@#k hordes with napalm but by the 80s, the yellow man had become the white man’s “useful” computer helper.

    Like


  485. @ Mack Lyons

    Because nearly every white woman I’ve personally seen with a black man looks like the rejects and the leftovers that white men didn’t want – too pudgy or outright obese, pasty skin complexion, an overall 3 or 4 on the 10 scale.

    Wow. I’m not the only one who noticed. The same dynamic applies to white men and Asian women. Usually, the white men in such relationships are far from being great catches.

    Like


  486. @Kiwi
    I also do not understand why not most asian women seem to prefer white men over black men. This has to be something cultural.
    Concerning that the fact that asian men were often misunderstood as dangerous for white women in the past I say that of course nature has not changed in that time. The point is rather that earlier people had not so much contact to people of other races, so they had wrong images in their had. And of course the image of asian men as predators never had any statistical real life basis. Now, as people actually have contact to people of other races, they have a more realistic view of racial differences

    Like


  487. @Mack Lyons

    Could it have been the average Asian’s increased focus on scholastics in preparation for STEM industry work, as opposed to the fields, fishing ships and railroads?

    That is just a rhetorical question, right? That is not how it happened.

    How did we get from THERE to HERE?

    Simple. Two things:
    1. Change the script with the Model Minority stereotype.
    2. White men start to believe they “own” Asian women.
    (It wasn’t until White men decided they wanted the right to bring Asian women to the USA that Asian men started to have a chance to bring Asian women to the USA.)

    @Kiwi

    The same dynamic applies to white men and Asian women. Usually, the white men in such relationships are far from being great catches.

    Does that apply to Hollywood heartthrobs like Nicholas Cage or billionaire entrepreneurs like Mark Zuckerberg?

    Sorry, I know you said “usually”😛

    Like


  488. @ Erik Sieven

    Now, as people actually have contact to people of other races, they have a more realistic view of racial differences

    Does that include the small Asian penis stereotype? Most of the time, it seems that white men are promoting it. Am I to believe that these white men have slept with Asian men and seen their penises? I can guarantee that almost every white man who talks about Asian men’s penises would get angry if you accused him of being homosexual. I don’t believe that many white men are closet homosexuals nor do I think they have ever seen Asian men’s penises, so I think they are just making it up. I find it strange that white men are so obsessed over other men’s penises, even more so than women are, and can still not be homosexual.

    The thing that is even more incredibly strange is that most white women who apply the small Asian penis stereotype give that as the reason for never wanting to date Asian men. But if they’ve never slept with one, how would they know? Now that starts to make one wonder how true it is. And here’s the crazy part. Many Asian women who’ve never slept with Asian men also give the small Asian penis stereotype as their reason for never wanting to date an Asian man. Don’t you find this perplexing? So much for “contact” and “realistic views”, right?

    Like


  489. @ jefe

    Does that apply to Hollywood heartthrobs like Nicholas Cage or billionaire entrepreneurs like Mark Zuckerberg?

    Was that tongue in cheek? I hardly consider those two great catches. Nicholas Cage has no character or integrity and Mark Zuckerberg is Jewish, which places him at the bottom of the white male social ladder. Also, neither one is attractive, especially by white standards.

    If an Asian girl snags the blonde, blue-eyed quarterback who normally goes after the blonde, blue-eyed cheerleader, maybe I’d be impressed. But more often, they get with obese, balding, aged, ugly, short, or nerdy white men that white women don’t want.

    Like


  490. @ Kiwi:

    Was that tongue in cheek? I hardly consider those two great catches. Nicholas Cage has no character or integrity and Mark Zuckerberg is Jewish, which places him at the bottom of the white male social ladder. Also, neither one is attractive, especially by white standards.

    I believe it was Hollywood actress, Zsa Zsa Gabor, who said, “No rich man is ugly.”

    If an Asian girl snags the blonde, blue-eyed quarterback who normally goes after the blonde, blue-eyed cheerleader, maybe I’d be impressed. But more often, they get with obese, balding, aged, ugly, short, or nerdy white men that white women don’t want

    The ones I’ve seen tend to fit in these categories. Only a handful look decent.

    Like


  491. @ Kiwi:

    Does that include the small Asian penis stereotype? Most of the time, it seems that white men are promoting it. Am I to believe that these white men have slept with Asian men and seen their penises? I can guarantee that almost every white man who talks about Asian men’s penises would get angry if you accused him of being homosexual. I don’t believe that many white men are closet homosexuals nor do I think they have ever seen Asian men’s penises, so I think they are just making it up. I find it strange that white men are so obsessed over other men’s penises, even more so than women are, and can still not be homosexual.

    The thing that is even more incredibly strange is that most white women who apply the small Asian penis stereotype give that as the reason for never wanting to date Asian men. But if they’ve never slept with one, how would they know? Now that starts to make one wonder how true it is. And here’s the crazy part. Many Asian women who’ve never slept with Asian men also give the small Asian penis stereotype as their reason for never wanting to date an Asian man. Don’t you find this perplexing? So much for “contact” and “realistic views”, right?

    This obsession with Asian men’s penises is disturbing. I know when I had white men with their Asian fetish approach me, and they learned I had an Asian significant other, they would openly mock his supposedly small penis. How would they know this? Anyway, I would simply smile and say, “Let’s just say I’m satisfied.Thanks. Buh-bye.” lol!

    Like


  492. @ Kiwi:

    @ leigh204

    That was really funny! Thanks for sharing that vid. I like the way it parodies Asian fetish but in reality, the way “white fetish” manifests among Asian women is very different from what was shown.

    I agree “white fetish” is portrayed differently concerning AW. It’s really weird in a sense that I used to remember the stories by many Asian women I knew who said it was white men who pursued them relentlessly. Now, it’s some of the Westernized Asian women who chase white men. Either way, it’s sad and pathetic.

    Like


  493. @ Bulanik:

    @ leigh204

    GREAT video. One of the funniest I’ve seen for a long time.

    This short vid tickled my funny bone because it’s true! I could relate to everything.

    Like


  494. @ leigh204

    i believe it was Hollywood actress, Zsa Zsa Gabor, who said, “No rich man is ugly.”

    Aha! The “Ari Onasis Syndrome” again! Y’know, short, ugly men aren’t short and ugly when they stand on their money! lol! https://abagond.wordpress.com/open-thread/#comment-250069

    A minor observation: when I have been around (East/SE) Asian women with the big blond, blue-eyed hunk type white men, it seemed to me that they made for “self-conscious” couples. I knew 2 couples like this, and must say that what I observed certainly isn’t representative of anything but those individuals.

    This is not because I discerned any “objection” as such to their relationship.
    For me, it was like they were watching themselves being looked at, and admiring themselves for having “found” and chosen the other.
    It was almost “eugenist” in the sense that they seemed to act on some understanding that they theirs was a “racial” attraction as they perceived each other as the pinnacle of Idealised Man and Woman, and kind of Perfect.

    I don’t know what to call it actually.
    I pondered on whether the impression that I received was due to a prejudice of mine that I hadn’t acknowledged. But as much as I examined my own thoughts and feelings, it was not grounded in any belief or passion that they should not be, in principle, together. I don’t “worry” about inter-racial couples, I am the product of a few generations of just that myself, and to be totally frank, don’t feel that strongly about it either way…

    Rather, what I felt more than anything else, was that they were “forced” in their togetherness and faux compatibility, because I learned neither women respected or liked Asian men, and both white men seemed to exclude all other race woman from their choices.

    In one of the couples, the man was a New Zealander and the woman from Japan, and they were keen to have children — but it hadn’t happened, but the woman kept on saying: “we will have ideal kids when they come.
    She herself had tinted her black hair blonde as her husband’s, and sometimes wore “light” coloured contacts. It gave her a washed out look, as blonde didn’t seem right for her wheat-coloured skin.

    I don’t want to speculate on this too much — but it wasn’t exactly soothing around them or likewise, the other other couple I knew , where the white man was considered a blond Adonis hunk and the woman an “Asian” babe.
    They just made me cringe and I never really thought it through to understand possibly why.

    Like


  495. @ Bulanik

    I learned neither women respected or liked Asian men, and both white men seemed to exclude all other race woman from their choices.

    What I try to encourage other people to do is ask themselves, “What happens when they have sons?” Once people think about this, they might begin to realize what it feels like to be an Asian American male.

    They just made me cringe and I never really thought it through to understand possibly why.

    Asian men who grow up in the West are constantly, from childhood, conscious of this to some extent, and this has a profound, often traumatic, impact on their psyches.

    Like


  496. @ pumpkin

    that also reminds me of the men who talk about black women’s vaginas

    I have seen that as well. It is very strange how gendered racism in America is centered on the derision of black femininity and Asian masculinity. That is expressed by verbal assaults on the black vagina and the Asian penis within white circles.

    Like


  497. @sharina,
    I have a question for you about Caribbean people in Florida. Do you notice the different groups (islands) keeping to themselves? Or is the Caribbean community as noticeable as the Cuban community?

    Like


  498. @ Bulanik

    For me, it was like they were watching themselves being looked at, and admiring themselves for having “found” and chosen the other.
    It was almost “eugenist” in the sense that they seemed to act on some understanding that they theirs was a “racial” attraction as they perceived each other as the pinnacle of Idealised Man and Woman, and kind of Perfect.

    I know exactly what you’re talking about. I get this vibe, too, from some of these couples. They’re highly aware of society’s gaze, particularly that of Asian men, as that “turns them on” so to speak. To them, their interracial pairing epitomizes a hybrid of racial and sexual superiority over Asian masculinity, and I suppose white femininity as well.

    From reading Randy and biff’s comments, I have caught several instances where this mindset rears its head. From Randy, I get the sense that white men are “better” than Asian men whereas from biff, I get the sense that Asian women are “better” than white women. Though the two don’t know it, their views complement one another’s.

    Like


  499. I believe Asian women who go out with white men often get a “thrill” when they see single Asian men. To them, it is a sort of “victory” over or a slight against Asian masculinity. I also believe white men get an ego boost when they see so many Asian women with white men but so few Asian men with white women. It gives them the feeling that their masculinity is superior and prized for its whiteness. I think this mindset plays a role in how white men view interracial relationships between black men and white women. Black men represent a threat and are taking “their” women.

    Like


  500. @ pumpkin

    I said:

    verbal assaults on the black vagina and the Asian penis

    White American obsession over the black penis and the Asian vagina, on the other hand, seems to border on fascination or exoticization.

    Like


  501. Online American interracial porn makes the racial dynamic clear as night and day. Black men and Asian women are overwhelmingly favored over black women and Asian men. Videos that go against the popular trends are voted down accordingly since they are disfavored by mainstream attitudes towards black and Asian sexuality.

    Like


  502. @Kiwi

    I agree to a extent that black men and Asian women are preferred in porn. You will find way more interracial porn featuring those pairings than a black woman with a white man or Asian guy. However it seems that white women are still preferred. The top porn stars are pretty much white except for one or two

    Like


  503. @ pumpkin

    I’m still reading it. I find the stereotype of black women as prostitutes to be really strange. Reading about the employers compelling their black female workers to sleep with them in order for them to receive roles was disgusting. I think a better comparison for black women in the industry, though, would be with Asian women. That would be interesting for comparison given that both are nonwhite women. And of course, the stereotyping is very different.

    Like


  504. @Abagond,

    Did you read the article that was withdrawn from the economist, would love to see a post on your thoughts regarding. Please and thank you!

    http://www.economist.com/news/books-and-arts/21615482-how-slaves-built-american-capitalism-blood-cotton

    Like


  505. @ lifelearner

    OMG. Definitely. Thank you!

    Like


  506. @ pumpkin

    That was Forbes.

    Like


  507. Another racist NBA owner bites the dust…

    http://www.tmz.com/2014/09/07/atlanta-hawks-owner-bruce-levenson-racist-email-selling-team/

    Who’s next? What does this really say about the Old White Culture that is the *real power* behind the NBA?

    Like


  508. @ abagond

    When are you going to do your post on ‘Kindred’? I’ve just finished it and although it’s fiction it’s a great counter to the Economist article.

    The thing I liked best about it was Butler made Rufus seem human.

    She could have created a cartoonish version of a slave owner. Instead, we meet Rufus when he’s a little child and through Dana’s eyes we feel empathy for him.

    But then we see him become even more brutal than his father and mother – he causes the woman he ‘loves’ to commit suicide. We seen him evolve into this horrible person and because we connected with him as a child it’s completely believable.

    I think it’s a book that every white person should read. It shook me to my core.

    Like


  509. @ wordy

    Look for it later this week.

    Like


  510. @king,
    He is just using it as an excuse to try to sell the team for the same amount of money Sterling got.

    Like


  511. Links for the aforementioned plagiarism (there are other examples but this is one I bother to save):

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/09/25/the-spanish/#comment-194915

    which was plagiarizes from:

    Historian – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Like


  512. Oh dear. It looks like I copied the wrong link for the article from where the info was lifted. I can still trace it though, when time allows. In the meanwhile here is a recent tidbit to munch on Enjoy:

    “Bulanik
    @ omnipresent

    The Teddy boy suits of the rock and rollers in the UK are said to resemble this suit.

    I’d always heard that, too.
    The story goes that the Jamaican men who arrived in England in the late 1940s stepped off the ships in zoots and trilbies, influencing English tailoring as a result.

    (Abagond actually suggested zoot suit riots himself in his own list at the top.)”

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/09/05/nominations-for-hispanic-heritage-month/#comment-252288

    – – –

    She says she always heard this tells the story but makes no acknowledgement of the article and pic she from where she actually lifted the Info:

    http://people.howstuffworks.com/zoot-suit2.htm

    There is a pic with this article that shows three Black men wearing suits similar to the American zoot suit. All three wear the British “trilby” hat as well. There is a large suitcase near them and they appear to be either at a dock or at an airport. The pic caption reads:

    “Three Jamaican immigrants (left to right) John Hazel, a 21-year-old boxer, 32-year-old Harold Wilmot, and John Richards, a 22-year-old carpenter, dressed in zoot suits and trilby hats.”

    There are PLENTY more examples if anyone feels a need to quibble over this one.

    It is just sick how one inveterate liar and plagiarist is handled with kid gloves despite her obvious and wilful deceitfulness, and rampant long-term intellectual theft. Sheesh.

    Like


  513. @ pumpkin

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/open-thread/#comment-251897

    I read that article a while back and was impressed at first. But after reading a few comments that questioned the author’s motivations, I began to realize that she may not have been entirely sincere. The saying goes: You can talk the talk, but can you walk the talk? As it turns out, Asian men are not as important to her as she makes them out to be given that they obviously aren’t important enough for her to date. In fact, the reason she seems to have written the article is not to defend Asian men, but to defend her right to date white men.

    The way she drags stereotyping of Asian men into her dating issues almost makes it seem as if she indirectly blames Asian men for her interracial problems. While inexplicit, that was the feeling I got from reading the article. If it had been an Asian woman dating an Asian man instead who wrote it, I would have felt differently. When Asian women who speak out against emasculating stereotypes of Asian men are invariably paired with white men, it comes across as insincere and hypocritical.

    As an Asian man who understands internalized racism all too well, I cannot help but suspect that the author has feelings of self-hatred. I’ve been actively fighting mine for years yet I still feel it is not enough. What makes her special? My suspicion is that she felt guilty about her choice to be with a white man and felt a moral compulsion to compensate for her cognitive dissonance by speaking up for Asian men.

    Like


  514. Even Asian women who date Asian men often have internalized racism. Why should Asian women who date white men be cut any more slack?

    Like


  515. @Kiwi

    In fact, the reason she seems to have written the article is not to defend Asian men, but to defend her right to date white men.

    Agree.

    I wonder if it helped to assuage her feelings of guilt.

    Like


  516. Make it three, guys. I totally agree. She would’ve had merit if she were dating an Asian man. It’s the same with all those Asian-American female celebrities who say Asian men are emasculated and yet here they are dating/married to WM. Actions speak louder than words.

    Like


  517. I forgot to mention that the author cleverly makes herself out to be the victim of Asian male stereotypes instead of the actual victims themselves, Asian men. Apparently, she thinks she’s the victim because the stereotyping makes it harder for her to date white men. Boohoo. The poor thing. She doesn’t really seem to care how the stereotypes affect Asian men’s dating success. Now that I think about it, I feel like I was slapped across the face. Rather than paying lip service, she could have led by example, but nope. I mean, why should she have to sacrifice white men and lower her standards for an Asian man?

    Like


  518. @ Legion @ Pay It Forward

    I put some of your comments into moderation. I may have deleted some that seemed like duplicates.

    Like


  519. Pay it forward said:

    omnipresent

    The Teddy boy suits of the rock and rollers in the UK are said to resemble this suit.

    Sh!t. I should have quoted the fact that I read this on wikipedia in Zoot Suits
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoot_suit .
    Not sure if this is being implied but I didnt intend to pass this off as my own interpretation and I can see why some people might have thought this.

    Think its best that I stick to what I know which isnt much but I do my best 🙂

    Like


  520. @ Bulanik

    I put some of your comments into moderation along with those of Legion and Pay It Forward.

    Like


  521. @ abagond

    Fair enough.

    Further microaggressions and ad hominem: see the Wordynerdygirl on What to do about lying thread.

    Like


  522. @Abagond: Are you going to do a post on the Ray Rice fiasco? I hate men who batter women. But i do see a double standard here where Rice’s is being made an example of. White men, Asian, Latino/hispanic men batter their wives,girlfriends and significant others. Maybe a post is about this is due as well. I know you did a post on domestic violence.The Ray Rice fiasco is probably the topic thread to address that.

    Like


  523. @ Mary

    I am doing a post on that. It should appear tomorrow, God willing, unless Obama drops some kind of huge bombshell in his speech tonight (not expected, but then bombshells rarely are).

    Like


  524. Of the 26 movies written by Asian men, 15 had both an Asian male and Asian female lead/prominent roles and 4 had an Asian male and white female lead

    Of the 21 Asian movies written by white men …, 13 had Asian male leads, 3 of which were Asian male/female co-leads, and 8 were written with white males as the love interest or main lead opposite Asian female characters.

    Of the movies written by white women, one featured an Asian male lead with a white female lead …, the other featured Asian male/female co-leads

    Of the 17 [movies written by Asian women] , a whopping 12 feature either a white male lead or love interest with an Asian female lead, or even when there is a prominent Asian male role, their characters are somehow not eligible as love interests.

    This means that even white dudes have a better record [than Asian women] at writing lead roles for Asian men in Asian themed movies.

    Source: http://benefsanem.blogspot.com/2014/08/do-asian-men-exist-in-asian-american.html

    Like


  525. @ Mary Burrell

    White men, Asian, Latino/hispanic men batter their wives,girlfriends and significant others.

    Unlike white men, Asian and Latino men are stereotyped as sexist patriarchs. White men tend to be given the benefit of the doubt where nonwhite men of all stripes are not. White men are assumed to be ideal whereas nonwhite men have to prove themselves worthy before they can be regarded as equals of white men.

    Like


  526. @ Abagond

    From: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/06/07/my-position-on-relationships-between-black-women-and-white-men/

    It is women who do the choosing, especially when it comes to race and particularly since most men are dogs. Further, as shown in studies on Chinese American women, most women marry men like those they grew up among.

    From: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/05/25/asian-fetish/#comment-91203

    I believe the main thing that drives the so-called Asian fetish is not any sort of fetish, self-hated or even stereotyping, though that stuff no doubt goes on, but the simple fact that in America Asians are the least racially segregated of anyone. By far. It is not even close. Most whites, blacks and Latinos live in racial ghettos. Most Asian Americans do not. They mostly live in places that are mostly white. So there are just way more opportunities for Asians and whites to meet and date than any other interracial pairing. And since it seems to be women who apply race to dating the most, Asian female/white male pairings become the most common.

    Then why is the Asian female/white male pairing more common than the Asian male/white female pairing in Asian majority neighborhoods? I know of Asian women who grew up in Asian majority neighborhoods and attended Asian majority universities but only dated white men. White women who grew up around mostly Asian men don’t prefer Asian men. Almost every single one sticks with white men. My two aunts grew up in Asia but they only like white men. Isn’t this a huge contradiction with your theory?

    I am not the only one who might be interested in an answer. jefe, leigh204, pumpkin, Bulanik, bms103, Curiosity, and Erik Sieven have all expressed an interest in this topic on this thread alone.

    Like


  527. @ pumpkin

    I just realized something a few seconds ago which I thought might be important to share with you. I have noticed that white people will give white male/black female couples nasty looks on occasions but I have never caught white people giving white male/Asian female couples nasty looks – not once, EVER. And I have seen mountains of white male/Asian female couples compared to white male/black female couples, so that really says something. What do you think of this phenomenon?

    Like


  528. @ Pumpkin

    I have not had a chance to look at it yet.

    Like


  529. @ Kiwi:

    I know of Asian women who grew up in Asian majority neighborhoods and attended Asian majority universities but only dated white men.

    Isn’t that interesting? I grew up with predominantly white people well into my teens and yet I only wanted to date Asian men. I was also asked out by mostly white men, but I wasn’t interested.

    Like


  530. @ leigh204

    Precisely. That’s why I’m challenging Abagond’s theory. King presented a compelling case when he brought up the interracial disparity on the Asian fetish thread. I think there is more to the story than Abagond lets on, but I’m starting to think he may not have that perspective seeing how he’s on the “good” side of the fence. The black interracial disparity cuts against pumpkin and not him just as the Asian interracial disparity cuts against me and not you, which could explain possible differences in personal feelings on the topic.

    But I think, more likely, the issue is simply too touchy and he doesn’t want to come between Asian men and women by commenting on their affairs. Personally, I don’t mind him weighing in, but maybe he just hasn’t seen as much as I have, so he doesn’t feel it’s his place to speak. He has been silent so far and it’s driving me nuts.

    Like


  531. @ leigh204

    I think the ultimate value of understanding the interracial disparity is that it ties in (I suspect) with the Model Minority stereotype and the history of race in America. Just as the stereotype diametrically opposes blacks and Asians, the interracial disparity dichotomizes the two groups’ dating and marriage patterns. This phenomenon didn’t emerge overnight, which is why I want to get to the bottom of it. I asked pumpkin for information on the black interracial disparity as a means to gain insight on the Asian interracial disparity. I think it’s no accident that the disparities appeared around the civil rights movement and were in some sense, artificially constructed.

    Like


  532. Hmmm. A while ago, I saw a couple young Asian women sitting at a table with a very old white man, conversing with him. The man was downright geriatric, so I’m not sure what was going on there. *shudders*

    Like


  533. @ Pay It Forward

    Tons of Jamaicans came to Britain at that time, many no doubt dressed their best when they arrived. That you found a picture of that hardly means she plagiarized.

    Like


  534. @ pumpkin

    Besides what you’ve already shared, is there anything else you know about the black interracial disparity, such as how it reversed, the underlying stereotypes, laws enacted that affect it, or even how it might tie in with Asian immigration post civil rights? I’m particularly interested in how it reversed, because I remember jefe talking about how TV shows during the 60s had a bias towards black women and Asian men, the exact opposite of what we see today with black men and Asian women. Now that would make for an exciting thesis. I’m not demanding a research paper, just a list of what you know.

    Like


  535. Anne

    I am sorry I just saw your comment. I will respond in detail tomorrow.

    Like


  536. @ pumpkin

    @ abagond,

    Even though I know you’re…Haitian?

    From reading his comments, I get the impression that Abagond is Jamaican.

    Black men were seen as a threat to white women, however because of their supposed tendency to rape white women (the black rapist myth).

    Interestingly, Asian men were also seen that way until the mid-20th century.

    Black women were vilified in the media and portrayed as we’ve always been portrayed… as mammies, sapphires and ugly/unfeminine

    As you know, Asian men are portrayed as nerds, having thick accents, and being ugly/emasculated. Believe me, I know how that feels. It’s hard to put in words, but I can say it’s a very sickly, dark feeling, almost nauseating. When I’m in heavily white social settings, like at a cafe, you might see half the Asian women with white guys, the other half with Asian guys, and the other half of the Asian men appear to be single. That’s my impression, or at least it feels that way.

    the taboo that surrounded black men being with white women titillated the imaginations of the very people who had first put that barrier in place… Black men/white women were marketed.

    I remember reading somewhere that white men are the ones catered to primarily by the black male/white female pairing in porn. On the Interracial Relationships thread, I said white men see black men “raping” white women in porn as a form of revenge for slavery and for what white men did to black women during those times. As perverse as that sounds, that gets them off.

    With Asian men, I think white society desexualizes Asian men for the same reason that black men were hypersexualized

    Hmmm… I feel like that’s a contradiction. This theory seems a bit off. If white patriarchy sees black women as a bad choice for white men, then that should apply equally to Asian women. In fact, I think white patriarchy better explains the Asian interracial disparity since it favors white men. The Cheerios commercial came under heavy fire by white men who didn’t like seeing a black man take one of “their” women. Also, I don’t see very many black men with white women in the media compared to the tons of Asian women depicted with white men, sometimes alongside single Asian men.

    you wouldn’t see features/traits traditionally associated with Black women or Asian men derided and mocked when they’re on black women or asian men

    I know what you mean. Asian women have beautiful eyes but Asian men’s eyes are ugly, so let’s not date them. I bet lots of white men who date Asian women feel, if not think that way. And no doubt, that thinking affects their kids.

    derided and mocked when they’re on black women or asian men, but seen as cool and trendy when they’re on white people.

    A white guy who knows martial arts is hot. An Asian guy who knows martial arts is an ugly fool. A white guy who speaks an Asian language with a thick American accent is drooled over by Asian girls. An Asian guy who speaks perfect English has a harder time with Asian girls than even a white guy does.

    The fact that there is a bias against Asian men and Black women shows that we’re not post-racial and it’s not just preference, it’s very calculated and ingrained into the psyche.

    Yup. I won’t comment on black men (*cough* Tommy Sotomayor), but I feel that on the Internet, Asian women spend more time and effort defending white men than defending Asian men. It’s the saddest fact that Asian men are still citing an article written by an Asian woman defending Asian men and dating an Asian man written back in 2002. Meanwhile, we have garbage written by Asian women who only date white men written as recently as 2012.

    http://www.xojane.com/it-happened-to-me/asian-woman-dating-asian-men-jenny-an

    * The author tried to pass her article off as fake after getting hundreds of angry comments, but she got called out on that because the site is for confessions. If you ask me, she’s for real.

    Like


  537. @Kiwi,

    Interestingly, Asian men were also seen that way until the mid-20th century.

    You know, I am beginning to believe more and more that the main turning point was the Asian War Brides Act of 1947. White men pushed to bring in tens of thousands of war brides from Asia (while at the same time kept the quotas for Asian countries at some measly low level), keeping it difficult for Asian men to bring Asian women over.
    Something had to be invented to satisfy that cognitive dissonance in white men about owning the rights to Asian women.

    Then, after 1968, we had larger numbers of Asian women coming to the USA, and then white men did not even have to go to Asia to get Asian women.

    What I still haven’t figured out is why so many Asian women get white fever and bash Asian men with a passion. Do they hate their fathers or something?

    Like


  538. @Anne

    I am probably not the best person to ask about Florida dynamic. I don’t live there but I visit. Unlike most tourist, I just prefer to interact with the area and the people rather than do the expected tourist attractions. I also would not visit during high tourist seasons. With that being said I did notice on our last visit that Caribbean people seemed to keep to themselves. When we were in town I barely saw them unless I was going to a specific Caribbean store or restaurant. The Cuban community is extremely overwhelming and it was hard for me to really find a good deal of Caribbean people to interact with.

    Where I live in south Carolina/Georgia it is quite different though. We have a shockingly decent size of African and Caribbean community. Even more shocking is the amount of restaurants and shops that I learned about last year at the arts in the heart. They seem to be increasingly out doing the Mexican and Cuban communities here.

    Like


  539. @ jefe

    the main turning point was the Asian War Brides Act of 1947. White men pushed to bring in tens of thousands of war brides from Asia

    I remember reading that the present day Asian interracial disparity already existed for Japanese Americans in 1960, before immigration reform. If I can recover the source, I’ll link it. At the same time, Chinese and Filipino American men married out more due to there being not enough Asian women.

    What I’m wondering, by looking at the census, is why there was such a huge spike in the number of Asians in the US during the 50s. For example, the Japanese American population tripled in a decade, from 142,000 to 464,000, while Asian immigration was still banned. Could this have anything to do with war brides? Similarly, the Chinese American population went from 118,000 to 237,000 in the same time frame. I’m not sure if there were Chinese war brides.

    I also learned that due to the Chinese Exclusion Act, Japanese Americans were the largest Asian ethnicity in the US for the entire early to mid 20th century, until the ban on Asian immigration was lifted. I was surprised to learn that in my hometown, the Japanese were the biggest ethnic minority group before the Chinese brain drain moved in. In San Jose, the Chinatown that the whites burned down simply got replaced by the current Japantown. LOL

    What I still haven’t figured out is why so many Asian women get white fever and bash Asian men with a passion. Do they hate their fathers or something?

    This question has me stumped. Many more white women and other non-Asian women hate their fathers, too, but they’re not rushing to hook up with Asian men the way Asian women who hate their dads go after white men. I’ve met women who grew up in Asia their whole lives and within a week of coming to the US, I could tell they didn’t like Asian men. I found one of them dating a well below average white guy literally months after arriving in this country and the guy would openly mock Asian teachers’ accents in class while the Asian students just laughed along.

    I’ve talked about my self-hating aunts from Taiwan ad nauseam, but I’m unsure if their father has anything to do with it, or even their brothers. One of my Japanese friends told me that many women in Japan immigrate to America specifically to seek out white men. Randy and one of my Filipino friends have both described to me Filipina women only dating white men. biff and Bran have also talked about Chinese women who only date white men. Scouring the Internet has confirmed for me that this trend of Asian women pursuing white men is common in East and Southeast Asia. It boggles the mind.

    I really disliked Abagond’s thread on Japanese anime. I personally think the Japanese do draw themselves as white, even if only subconsciously. How would one explain why traditional Japanese art before the arrival of Western influence used Asian features? If the Japanese really are just drawing “raceless” people, why not include dark skinned characters? Oh, yeah, because race does matter…

    Like


  540. @ pumpkin

    any time you put a video of a black person on Youtube you’re going to get racist comments

    This is so true. It happens as well whenever you put a video of an Asian on Youtube. People will make all sorts of racist comments even when the video has absolutely nothing to do with race. But any video with white people in it that is not about race will never have racist comments about whites, even if the audience is mostly nonwhite. America is a “white default” society and “white is right” is so heavily ingrained in our culture, even nonwhites are brainwashed by it. Blacks are “black”, Asians are “Asian”, but whites are “normal”. I couldn’t quite put my finger on the strange feeling it evoked as a kid, but now I know that that’s what it feels like to be dehumanized.

    i couldn’t have cared less about the comments on the cheerios commercial cuz no one cares about things said about black women.

    Do you think black male/white female couples or black female/white male couples are more accepted by whites? I’ve always known that Asian male/white female couples are less accepted than Asian female/white male couples because of white patriarchy. Presumably, black male/white female couples are less accepted because black men are seen as a threat to white women in addition to white patriarchy making it less acceptable for nonwhite men to “take” white women. But at the same time, I see a conflicting trend in the media where black male/white female couples are better represented. I also know that Asian/white couples are more accepted than black/white couples due to the Model Minority stereotype.

    Like


  541. The one thing I enjoy about Abagond’s blog is having a safe space where people of color can talk freely about the issues that affect them without having to worry about being shouted or harassed into silence by bigots and the like.

    Very much like what’s happening over at a sub-Reddit, /r/blackladies.

    As much as I want to applaud these ladies for trying to change things from within, I personally find it an effort that won’t get much traction. The culture over at Reddit is just poisoned, through and through. All of the innocuous boards in the world (/r/corgi, etc.) won’t save it.

    Like


  542. @ pumpkin

    How do you feel when you see a white mother with her black mixed-race daughter? Do you feel any discomfort or a sense of inferiority? I ask because this is the exact feeling I get when I see a white father with his Asian mixed-race son, as petty as that sounds.

    Like


  543. https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110417184718AArrhsH

    I’m not even mixed, but I understood exactly how this man feels towards his white father and Asian mother.

    Like


  544. @ pumpkin

    it’s not that uncommon TO ME to see a black woman with a mixed child and also there are plenty of mixed-race people in my family from white men,

    I almost never see any Asian men with mixed kids but I see Asian women with mixed kids literally every single day of my life. That has really affected my thinking, as sometimes I don’t even want to step out the door.

    all men do this.

    I suppose it’s very different when you’re a female. That perspective, I don’t know. Asian men still have male privilege, even though it’s reduced by emasculating stereotypes.

    fall back on a Black woman, for money, sex, food

    Food?

    Like


  545. @ pumpkin

    Thank you for the Taressa Stovall article. I’m neither black, female, nor mixed, but amazingly, I could understand her pain. There were so many similarities to how I felt that it’s eerie.

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/open-thread/#comment-252997

    It’s uplifting yet still disheartening to read your comment. I don’t think Asian women are as likely to feel the same way you do. So many who date out are self-hating and look down on Asian men, it’s undignified. The fact that they can assimilate makes the problem worse.

    Like


  546. @sharina,
    For some reason I thought you were of Caribbean descent and lived in Florida. My mistake.

    Like


  547. @ pumpkin

    I’m sure any woman would be lucky to have you as a husband.

    Are you on the west coast? cuz if you are maybe you should consider moving elsewhere in the country where the asian interracial disparity isn’t so prevalent. For example, i have no interest in going to the west coast, WHY…because my black gf from california told me that most of the bm there aren’t really into bw so i know not to go there…i stay on the east coast.

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/open-thread/#comment-243444

    This is not the first time I’ve heard about the interracial disparity being pronounced on the West Coast. I’ve heard people say the Asian interracial disparity is worst in California for who knows what reason. Is this true? Do you know why? I see the black interracial disparity here, too, but I never heard that it was bigger on the West Coast. I’d be very interested to hear more of what you know.

    I … saw white man/aw in soul food restaurant and black man/white woman…hmmm…

    Yeah, it’s really weird. It’s like we’re in the Matrix or something. I saw a white male/Asian female couple and a black male/white female couple right next to each other again yesterday. I’m starting to feel like how one feels when he’s told the same joke over and over. It’s becoming more tiring than upsetting.

    I can’t tell you how many times in college, we would have our potlucks and all of the black women would bring food, cook it, I baked some brownies, other black women brought in mac n cheese, chicken, string beans all of that and there are black men who would show up who never really dated black women and bring their non-black gfs with them….eat our food and then go back to ignoring black women.

    Wow, what the f%#k. It’s like when Asian women who only date white men run into guys with Asian fetish then complain to Asian men, expecting our sympathy. And when we don’t support their hypocrisy, they slap us with the evil Asian sexist stereotype while they continue to give white men the benefit of the doubt. As usual, Asian men get blamed for white men’s sexism.

    I mentioned on the previous open thread that I read about Asian women who sleep around with white men in their teens and twenties, then when they hit their thirties, they snag an Asian doctor who just got out of med school because she knows he’ll take care of her. Yuck. Who wants sloppy seconds?

    I asked you:

    Do you think black male/white female couples or black female/white male couples are more accepted by whites?

    You said:

    well bm/ww are more common so…i think that should speak for itself.

    Your article about Daniele Watts said:

    Danièle’s husband, Brian Lucas, who is white, shared these photos on his Facebook page. He says he believes they were targeted because they are an interracial couple.

    Ohhhh.. Now I get it. If the couple had been a black man with a white woman, nobody would have assumed the white woman was a prostitute and the cops wouldn’t have paid them any mind. I never looked at it from this angle before because I’ve never seen white people who had any problem with white men dating Asian women. I think white men see dating Asian women as no different than dating white women, because Asian women are considered to belong to white men’s pool of datable women. So I never thought that dating black women would be stigmatized differently.

    Asian women used to be stereotyped as prostitutes the same way black women are today. Part of the reason Asian immigration was banned is because Asian women were thought of as dirty and as threats to the morality of white men. I think the Model Minority stereotype is why Asian women are now seen as an acceptable choice for white men. I suspect this is closely related to Asian men being formerly stereotyped as rapists of white women, just like black men.

    Like


  548. @ Wordy @ Curiousity @ Pumpkin

    The “Kindred” post should go up on the 16th.

    Like


  549. @ Abagond

    Fabulous – really looking forward to it!

    I’ve just finished the ‘Lilith’s Brood’ series too. Didn’t like it quite as much as ‘Kindred’ but it was really fascinating nevertheless, despite the strange tentacle baby-making moments!

    Like


  550. -_-

    Like


  551. pumpkin:

    “what’s wrong sondis?”

    I’m angry, because i’ve had it up to here—> with all the bull-spit that is going on in this country.

    I am thinking about going, to where whites has so often suggested…..Go back to Africa. Silly as it may sound, being i am not from Africa but America.

    @ : o l ) >

    Like


  552. pretty sure guy fawlkes had some problems with explosives actually hmm

    Like


  553. @ Mary

    I finally watched Belle today. The movie is absolutely beautiful. It made me cry.

    Like


  554. @ pumpkin

    In response to your article on Daniele Watts’s arrest for being with a white man, I found an article explaining why the parents of Lucy Liu’s character in Charlie’s Angels were racially switched. Not surprising, considering that the producers are mostly white men.

    producers had written the scene with Alex’s parents to be an exchange of comedic banter between a Jewish mother and an Asian father — a biracial marriage that American audiences rarely see on film or television. For unexplained reasons, the script was later changed to put forward a white father and an Asian mother

    http://modelminority.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=473:charlies-angels-sequel-angers-asian-americans-&catid=44:media&Itemid=56

    Like


  555. @ pumpkin

    In response to your article on Daniele Watts’s arrest for being with a white man, I found an article explaining why the parents of Lucy Liu’s character in Charlie’s Angels were racially switched. Not surprising, considering that the producers are mostly white men.

    producers had written the scene with Alex’s parents to be an exchange of comedic banter between a Jewish mother and an Asian father — a biracial marriage that American audiences rarely see on film or television. For unexplained reasons, the script was later changed to put forward a white father and an Asian mother

    http://modelminority.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=473:charlies-angels-sequel-angers-asian-americans-&catid=44:media&Itemid=56

    Like


  556. In mentioning what one — perhaps — is not (islamophobic, Eurocentric, and certainly not Afrocentric [“the sheer fine-ness of Caucasian peoples,” which, it seems, includes certain Indian “peoples,” especially Punjabis]) one forgot to mention what one has shown oneself to be, to wit: a Muslim apologist, an Indo-phile/ Indo-centrist, Anglo-phile/Anglo-centrist, and Anti-American.

    Like


  557. @ abagond,

    Thanks so much for playing the role of neutral moderator in this and in other sensitive situations on your blog. It is very much appreciated.

    Perhaps, though, when all results are in, a certain commenter can once again take up residency in the comments section via an (undisclosed) pseudonym. I’m sure that most other commenters will be agreeable to silently looking the other way, and to actively pretend that the whole thing never happened in the first place.😉

    Like


  558. @ pumpkin

    I know this is getting old, but I just saw another white male/Asian female couple next to a black male/white female couple again. This has got to be the lamest, most overrepresented interracial quartet ever!

    Like


  559. @ pumpkin

    what do you think needs to be done to change the perception of Asian men/Black women in the media…is there anything that can be done?

    I’ve heard tons of good things about K-pop, and the rise of China has resulted in an increase of positive media portrayals of Asian men, as has Japanese anime and the like. From what I’ve read online and from what some of my friends have told me, the Asian interracial disparity has been closing since about 2005, albeit very slowly. From what I read, the height of the black interracial disparity was around 1980, and has also been closing since, which may be why it is smaller than the Asian equivalent.

    To the surprise of many, Africa also has a bright future as many of its countries have economies growing faster than even Asia’s. However, that’s a bit further off in the future. I think the situation will improve for both with time, but that begs the question as to why. Cultural productions such as the media require massive amounts of money, and that depends on economic might. My guess is that as the world GDP shifts away from the West and towards Asia and Africa, Asian men and black women will have more opportunities to represent themselves.

    Like


  560. Comment in moderation.

    Like


  561. a certain commenter can once again take up residency in the comments section via an (undisclosed) pseudonym. I’m sure that most other commenters will be agreeable to silently looking the other way, and to actively pretend that the whole thing never happened in the first place.😉

    But will she?
    A certain other commenter is always changing her name, and is quite deluded in her belief that “most” commenters don’t see her for what she is.
    They just don’t say it here. 😉

    As it goes, I don’t follow psychiatric disorders myself.
    I don’t know the language or the definitions.
    But I know a certain commenter is fooling herself if she thinks she has escaped ANY of the psychiatric categories she applies to others…

    Like


  562. @ Abagond

    Regarding: Wordynerdygirl & her “original” writings.

    I am due in the Middle East next month, and there are staff researchers in the Political Science Depts of at least one of the universities there (you know the country) who would very much CARE to scrutinize the essay and thesis that Wordy has claimed are her own work, and not that of plagiarist.

    There is at least one other insititution (Eastern Europe) that I have been in touch with who would relish picking apart her work.
    And since she has nothing to hide, this shouldn’t be a problem, should it?

    Please, if possible, have Wordynerdy forward files of essays/dissertation to you and I will take it from there.

    Wordynerdygirl strikes me as simply trying too hard.
    More than that, she’s making her claims just a little too loudly and a little too
    often. I think the expression is “the lady doth protest too much”.

    I am sure it goes far deeper than she is proclaiming here.
    Hence my suspicion.
    Whether she likes it or not, there is a ring of the “familiarity” about what she says — what she claims as her own.
    It is “derivative”, at best, and there are those who find her out.

    Wordynerdygirl will be well and truly busted, I fear.

    (Also posted on Comment Policy and How is lying cured.)

    Like


  563. *…there are those who WILL find her out.”

    Like


  564. @ Bulanik

    I deleted same apparent duplicate comments and one where to call someone a Neanderthal.

    Like


  565. @ wordynerdygirl

    In response to:

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/open-thread/#comment-250116

    On the previous open thread, I told Mary Burrell that I treat Abagond’s blog as a quasi-personal diary to deposit my thoughts. Because of this, I’ve ended up commenting a lot. A more official answer is that I use this blog to practice my reading, writing, and critical thinking. But most importantly, I am here to learn. Because of this blog, my communication skills with real life people have improved greatly and I have been able to engage others in more intellectually stimulating and rewarding conversations. I do not regret any of the time I have invested in this blog as there is so much knowledge and viewpoints that I would otherwise have never come across.

    Like


  566. @ Abagond

    I don’t “call” PIF a Neanderthal, elsewhere she has made proud claim to her genetic inheritance from this human family group.

    It was no slur against her.

    Like


  567. @ Abagond

    Explain then to me, why it stands that PIF may liken me to Charles Manson?
    A mass murderer.

    Or Hitler.

    Like


  568. @ Abagond

    Explain too, why it stands that PIF may freely call me sociopath or narcissist and not held account nor have that classed as “personal attack”?

    Tell us why personal attacks are small fry in your book?

    Like


  569. Or is it simply a matter of who may be attacked as against who is spared from that? It seems some commenters may attack at will, and counter-attack is very, very carefully monitored.

    Like


  570. I

    n mentioning what one — perhaps — is not (islamophobic, Eurocentric, and certainly not Afrocentric [“the sheer fine-ness of Caucasian peoples,” which, it seems, includes certain Indian “peoples,” especially Punjabis]) one forgot to mention what one has shown oneself to be, to wit: a Muslim apologist, an Indo-phile/ Indo-centrist, Anglo-phile/Anglo-centrist, and Anti-American.

    Now, this ^^ can not go unchallenged. That sounds a bit white-washed and self-hating. Not healthy at all.

    The commenter who believes this is pretty much anti-foreigner, anti-Immigrant, and anti-Asian, and pretty much in an Equal Opportunities kind of way.
    I imagine they don’t like Asians having A Presence on this blog that was not as conspicuous as before. They comment too much. And it is negative competition, because what Asians put up with is nothing and nowhere like the REAL suffering that black people in America have.

    I am a Muslim Apologist? Right, because “Muslims” are all terrorists, and because I don’t subscribe to that belief, it means I am “anti-American”.
    Problem is my mother is American, my Dad was, my siblings are, their kids are, I have a home there (though don’t use the property)…and other private connections… So, yes, next time I around my Senegalese, Bosniak or Malaysian friends (no, they are not imaginary), who are all Muslims, I will remember they are terrorists, too…

    I am an Indophile. Should I hate India and Indians?
    I have found that Poles, Canadians, Welsh, Germans, Austrians, Costa Ricans, Americans, Filipinos, Armenians, Eritreans, Kenyans, Maccanenese, lovable, some individuals, sure. Parts of their cultures, too. Same with the English and Irish and Russians and Hungarians and Lebanese and Ghanaians and Igbo-Nigerians…

    {ROLLS EYES}

    Like


  571. @ Kiwi

    Thanks for your response to my question. It’s really interesting background to your comments.

    It’s funny because this is cyberspace but all the regular commenters here have their own distinct personas and writing styles. I don’t know anything about anyone here but as Buddhu says above it’s a little community of sorts, even if it’s a slightly dysfunctional one at times!

    Like


  572. @ pumpkin

    i’m curious kiwi, what do you think of this video?

    I still think Daniele Watts’s race was a factor. Like I said, nobody would have looked twice if it had been a black man with a white woman. Nobody assumes white women are prostitutes just because they’re white, but black women are not extended that benefit of the doubt.

    I had a question, too, which I just thought of recently. How do you feel about black men with Asian women or other non-black minority women? I used to not care about them the way I do with Asian women and white men, but lately, my opinion has started to change. Black men can have Asian fetish, too, and dating black men or other non-Asian minority men doesn’t mean an Asian women isn’t self-hating. It’s not the same dynamic, but a black male/Asian female couple could very well be mutually self-hating, even if the relationship doesn’t involve whites. I think it’s more complicated because they’re not prizing white partners but still internalizing stereotypes about the opposite sex within their own race.

    Like


  573. Interesting picture:

    Like


  574. @Kiwi,

    Just thinking of the Joy Luck Club, which depicted all the Asian men as pigs or losers. That is how Asian women married to white men write about Asian men.

    Like


  575. @ jefe

    That is how Asian women married to white men write about Asian men.

    I remember once having a book that was written by an Asian American woman. It was told from the perspective of an Asian female who fantasized about finding her ideal white man and sleeping with him. In it, she put down Asian culture and clearly resented her own family. She also described the Asian men that her family tried to set her up with in a very disparaging and stereotypical manner.

    I haven’t seen the book in years and I can remember neither the title nor the author, but I have been searching desperately for it as it entails everything I’ve said about Asian women’s self-hatred and their interracial dynamic with white men. What I found most eye-opening about the book was that it allowed me to see inside the mind of a self-hating Asian woman who bashed Asian men.

    The book was not written with a self-critical or introspective gaze and in fact was written using a very nonchalant, unabashed tone. For this reason, I am confident that the book serves as an accurate portrayal of Asian female self-hatred. If I am fortunate (or unfortunate) enough to find it again, I will share it with you.

    Like


  576. @ Pumpkin @ Wordy

    The “Kindred” post at long last is up:

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/09/17/kindred/

    Like


  577. @Kiwi

    I am confident that the book serves as an accurate portrayal of Asian female self-hatred.

    I wouldn’t go as far as saying that it represents the viewpoint of other Asian American women unless it became a best seller among Asian American women and the reviews by Asian American women extolled how it encapsulated their viewpoint.

    Of course, it adds food for thought and if Asian American women are not outraged by it, we can say that it represents at least a lot of people.

    I wonder how many Asian American female of readers or viewers of The Joy Luck Club said to themselves that they see themselves in there somewhere.

    You know, in the past couple weeks, I had a New York born Chinese American woman as my scuba diving student. She is the daughter of my college roommate’s brother-in-law. I think she is into white guys. Even though she has a master’s degree in international relations from Georgetown she has a completely white (mostly white liberal) view of US history and politics, including her understanding about Black American and Asian American history. For example, she would believe blacks were subject to Jim Crow, but Asians were not (as well as all the other stuff the Young Turks said). She does not connect the Asian American experience to US foreign policy even though she has a master’s in International relations from a prestigious university.

    Like


  578. @ jefe

    New York born Chinese American woman

    I’ve heard how New York is a dystopia for Asian men because nearly every white/Asian couple there is a white male and Asian female. Then again, California is pretty dismal, too. It’s really bizarre. The interracial stats make it not seem that bad, but my real life observations contradict the stats big time.

    I think she is into white guys.

    After a while, you learn how to pick up on certain “signals” that some Asian women give off which indicate they may like white men but not Asian men. For a few of them, if you shut your eyes, all you hear is a white female.

    Like


  579. A more visible “signal” is hair dye. From what I’ve seen, Asian women with white men are way more likely to dye their hair than those with Asian men. Same goes for Asian women living in white neighborhoods.

    Like


  580. ^^^

    That security guard’s a f$&@ing prick.

    Like


  581. October 17th Dear White People is coming to a theater near you. I can’t wait.

    Like


  582. @ pumpkin

    black women are oversexed and undersexed

    What is that even like? That’s the weird thing about race. It makes no sense.

    I can’t say I really know what it’s like to be hypersexualized, as my racial/sexual demographic is the only one that hasn’t been stereotyped that way in half a century. Many stereotypes contradict, like Charlie Chan and Fu Manchu. It’s odd.

    Like


  583. Kiwi,

    I met this woman in Hong Kong (not in New York), but I did meet her father at least twice as her father’s sister is married to my college roommate from decades ago. She has moved to HK for work at an investment bank.

    When I was doing her dive training, she was telling me that, well, Asians never were subjected to racism like blacks (and she told me about her amazement after seeing 12 years as a slave that not all blacks in the USA were slaves before the Civil War) and unapologetically, I had to interrupt her to remind her that together with the Chinese Exclusion Act, Chinese were lynched, massacred, and essentially driven out, an attempt by the USA to cleanse itself of its ethnic Chinese population, a form of genocide. Japanese Americans were rounded up and imprisoned for their race, another precursor to genocide. And Asian Americans WERE subject to Jim Crow.

    I asked her if she had any opportunity to learn much about US history, and she told me that she was not really interested in learning history. (I thought to myself, HUH? and you got a master’s in International Relations?).

    Well, she got really offended, and the whole interchange ended after about one minute. I dropped it and never brought it up again.

    On a later meeting, she brought a white guy out on the boat to join her dive training.

    Like


  584. I’ve heard how New York is a dystopia for Asian men because nearly every white/Asian couple there is a white male and Asian female. Then again, California is pretty dismal, too. It’s really bizarre.

    I think the stats are most dismal in those regions that actually have more Asian Americans. Maybe whites in those areas are more used to Asians.

    Sometimes I wonder if an Asian man wants to get married, would he have to go to Asia to find a spouse. It seems like not much change since before the Exclusion acts and Anti-miscegenation laws were repealed.

    It does seem that we can trace Asian male emasculation to Yellow Peril. That deserves further study and analysis.

    Like


  585. @ jefe

    She has moved to HK for work at an investment bank.

    On a later meeting, she brought a white guy out on the boat to join her dive training.

    This is honestly not the first time I’ve read about an Asian American woman who moved to Asia but still “just happened” to end up with a white man. Meanwhile, white female expats in Asia complain about not having any men to date while all the white male expats go after the local Asian women. Are Asian men really that hideous?

    I think the stats are most dismal in those regions that actually have more Asian Americans. Maybe whites in those areas are more used to Asians.

    You’ve said this before and I think you might be right. Do you know why? Maybe the disparity is less severe in whiter neighborhoods because the Asian men there don’t have a choice and are more likely to end up with white women. I was always under the impression that all the Asian women in white neighborhoods get snatched up by white men, leaving the Asian men perpetually single. But from what I’ve seen, many still end up with Asian women.

    I hope you can answer this question that I posed to Abagond:

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/open-thread/#comment-252472

    Sometimes I wonder if an Asian man wants to get married, would he have to go to Asia to find a spouse. It seems like not much change since before the Exclusion acts and Anti-miscegenation laws were repealed.

    This is not the case. Based on the data I’ve seen, most Asian men are getting married, maybe at a higher rate than white men. Although Asian men are less likely to be married than Asian women, that could be due to men of all races getting married later than do women.

    It does seem that we can trace Asian male emasculation to Yellow Peril. That deserves further study and analysis.

    I was hoping you had an answer but I agree, this requires investigation. I doubt there are many other Kiwis or jefes on the Internet discussing the topic to this depth.

    Like


  586. @Kiwi,

    Maybe in areas with a higher proportion of Asian Americans, there is considerably more Asian male bashing or emasculation. Perhaps where Asian numbers are low, whites and Asian females feel less inclined to bash Asian males.

    Sorry, that I don’t know everything there is to know about Asian American sociological phenomenon. But the rate of Asian male emasculation seems to escalated further since I left the USA. It was bad enough then (think Joy Luck Club) but it seems like everyone believes it now.

    I think part of it has to do with Yellow Peril (ie, controlling the threat of Asians), but that would not explain why Asian women jump on the Asian male bashing bandwagon.

    Unless, the target of fear is really the Asian man and Asian women have internalized the white fear of Asian men and joined their emasculation (without really knowing why).

    Like


  587. @ jefe

    I’m unsure if the Yellow Peril stereotype is still directly responsible for why Asian men are treated with such disdain today. Nobody has stereotyped me as a violent rapist. Although the emasculation of Asian men in the media seems to be the main reason and its origins can be traced to Yellow Peril, Yellow Peril itself is no longer the proximate cause.

    Among Asian and non-Asian women alike, the reasons given for why dating Asian men is frowned upon is not that they are rapists or threatening, but rather that they are “uncool”, “gross”, “ugly”, “effeminate”, “nerdy”, or just plain unpopular. One of my friends told me that at University of Illinois at Urbana–Champaign, many of the white girls and Asian girls there both have a “no Asian guys” dating policy while many of the white guys there are crazy about Asian girls.

    I am still waiting for your reply to why the Asian American population was rapidly growing during the 1950s.

    First two paragraphs:

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/open-thread/#comment-252899

    Like


  588. Kiwi,

    I agree. I think Asian men are often seen as less masculine than other men and therefore, less threatening when it comes to the context of gendered violence and rape. At the same time, this emasculation means that Asian men often are not seen as “manly enough” for dating. Which is part of the same stereotype, I think. (In a similar way that stereotypes about black men being well endowed is not a positive thing, because it brings the nasty stereotypes about black men).

    It sucks and it’s unfair either way because Asian men are no less masculine than any other group of men.

    Like


  589. Mary Burrell,

    I am excited for Dear White People, but I am not sure if it’s going to be available where I live. (I am in Canada now). Hopefully it will, and I hope more and more people will hear about it.

    Like


  590. @ Mira

    Thank you for your input. I’ve read many of your comments on this blog and enjoyed them because of the perspective they add.

    Like


  591. Hi Kiwi,

    I took a looong break on the site, but I kind of visit it from time to time. I’d like to be more active again!

    Like


  592. @ Mira

    Correction noted, however, both are actually given as reasons for not dating Asian men. On other forums, Asian women claim that they end up with white men simply because there weren’t enough Asian men. But at the same time, some Asian women also say they won’t date Asian men because they grew up around them their whole lives and it would be like dating their brother.

    I call BS and say they’re just making excuses to justify their internalized racism. They’re certainly not chasing after black men, who supposedly are the most masculine. White men are the most desirable, just as white supremacy dictates.

    Like


  593. There was a very good post made by the commenter Aiyo on her personal website. She called it “The Three Bears effect”, and it’s a great example of these powers at play. It’s a very good read. Let me try to find the link.

    Here it is:

    http://blackbritishgirl.blogspot.ca/2010/01/three-bears-effect_12.html

    It was also featured on Abagond’s website:

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/11/19/the-three-bears-effect/

    I don’t want to dare to speak for Asian women since I’m not an Asian woman myself, but I do think the above effect is very harmful for both black and Asian men because it dehumanizes them while uplifting white men.

    Personally, I don’t find Asian men less masculine than other types of men, but nobody asks me for my opinion here.

    Like


  594. I meant to say “other races of men”, not “other types”. I don’t know what with me today. i should re-read the comments before I send them!

    Like


  595. @ Mira:

    Hey! How’s it going, eh? I came back after a long hiatus a few months ago. You said you live in Canada now? Since when? Which province if you don’t mind me asking? As you can tell by the 204 in my SN, I live in the middle of Canada. It’s great to see you on here!😀

    Like


  596. Oh, hi! Glad to see you here. I had a long hiatus so I wasn’t sure there was anyone left of the 2010 crowd (if I can call us like this).

    I moved to Canada to pursue my PhD. I arrived about 3 weeks ago. I’m in Alberta (it’s easy to guess where, I suppose).

    How are you? Your avatar is so great!

    Like


  597. ^ @ Mira:

    Oh, thanks! I had a recent personal crisis which finally has been resolved. Other than that, I’m doing okay. Thank you for asking! So what do you think of Alberta so far? Btw, what made you pick Alberta as the place to pursue your doctorate? I take it you’re staying for quite a while? If you are, please be prepared for winter. lol! I come from one of the coldest parts of Canada and I’m telling you now it’s important to layer your winter clothing. That’s my tip for you.🙂

    Like


  598. Sorry to hear about the crisis. I hope everything’s fine now.

    I got my visa for 4 years, because this is how long the program lasts (though it depends on how fast you can perform your research and write your thesis). The funding is only for 4 years, lol. I chose Alberta because, well, this is where my supervisor is. When it comes to PhD studies, you don’t choose based on the institution or location, you choose based on the supervisor who has the same research interests as you. Since my research interest is somewhat specific for my discipline (anthropology), there are not that many of them around the world… And one happens to be in Alberta!

    Yes, I know about the winter. We already had the first snow on September 8!!! I am kind of prepared, but for now, it’s pretty…. Much the same as back home? This is the thing that surprised me at most. I don’t have a feeling I am in a foreign country. Sure, the city is smaller than my homecity and people speak in English, but other than that, everything seems so familiar. I am waiting for some kind of a culture shock but it’s not coming. Except for the fact people here really like pickup trucks and it’s polite to say “thank you” to the bus driver. Those are the only new things for me. Oh, and the sizes of food packages. They are enormous, one person can’t eat so much food in… a week? Though those are small differences and all in all, it all seems so familiar, in lack of a better word.

    Oh, sorry for the novel. Glad to see you here.🙂

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