Aaron Mak (c. 1995- ) was the news reporter who was beat up at the Milwaukee riots that followed the police killing of Sylville Smith. He is Chinese American.
Mak, who goes to Yale, was a summer intern at the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, the biggest newspaper in Milwaukee and in the state of Wisconsin. He was sent to report on what was then still a peaceful Black Lives Matter protest.
By the time he got there, people were starting to push the riot police. One man had tears in his eyes as he did it. Years and years of anger were boiling over. Pushing and rock throwing turned to smashing cars and burning buildings. By the time it got to shooting, Mak hid behind a car in fear for his life.
The Sentinel later sent another intern, a White photographer. Protesters told him to leave and then ran after him. When Mak tried to help him, they started beating up Mak. He was curled up into a ball as blows came down on him. And then he heard a voice:
“Stop! He’s not white! He’s Asian!”
And they stopped. He was taken to safety. He suffered only scrapes and bruises. He saw it as the actions of a few, not Black Lives Matter.
The thing that most stuck in his mind, though, came before the riot. A woman asked:
“You’re Asian, right? Why are you even here?”
The simple answer is that, as a journalist, it was his duty to “convey the pain and grief that can result from misuse of power.”
But as an Asian American should he support Black Lives Matter?
As Mak tells it, Asian American activists seem to be divided into two main schools of thought: the colour-blind and the colour-conscious (my names).
This came out dramatically in the case of Peter Liang, a Chinese American police officer in New York who shot and killed Akai Gurley, an unarmed Black man. Some Asian Americans sided with the colour-conscious Black Lives Matters and wanted Liang held to account. But others, like the Chinese Action Network, wanted the courts to be colour-blind and let off Liang just like they would any White police officer.
The colour-blindness goes beyond the Liang case. The Chinese Action Network, for example, also wants New York prep schools to be colour-blind when admitting students. And some of the same Asian American rights groups in California which do not support Black Lives Matter fought SCA5, which would have allowed public universities to use colour-conscious admissions.
The colour-conscious see redlining, racial profiling, stop-and-frisk and mass incarceration. They see the Pacific Islander and South East Asian men being sent to prison in high numbers. They see how the fight for Black civil rights helps everyone, not just Blacks.
The colour-blind see only their own battles, using the Bootstrap Myth to dismiss Black concerns. They think that bringing race into it, as Black Lives Matter does in its very name, only winds up making things worse not better.
– Abagond, 2016.
Source: Politico.
See also:
- Sylville Smith
- Black Lives Matter
- Peter Liang
- colour-conscious
- colour-blind racism
- counter frames – how race affects how you see the US
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“The simple answer is that, as a journalist, it was his duty to “convey the pain and grief that can result from misuse of power.””
What!? Since when was that the mission of journalists? Their job is to gather enough facts so that their bosses can spin these facts to their liking.
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I hope this post gets plenty of attention because it’s a topic I’m interested in. I don’t know what to make of the other ethnic groups in America. Friend or foe? Or is it impossible to say?
White folks for me are guilty until proven innocent, they’ve shown time and time again that’s the stance that they take when it comes to our people. But I’m not sure what to make of the Asian American community. My gut feeling is that they’d side with whites to throw us under the bus so that they can have a seat in the big house. But the actions and words of this journalist here throws that idea out of the water.
Good post.
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Abagond wrote,
“The colour-blind see only their own battles, using the Bootstrap Myth to dismiss Black concerns. They think that bringing race into it, as Black Lives Matter does in its very name, only winds up making things worse not better.”
I think it’s deeper then being color blind. When colleges raise entrance level test scores higher for Asains then any other group that is discrimination based on race and that leads to resentment.
The scores are higher for Asains because prominent white kids are privileged to go to prestigious colleges.
http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-adv-asian-race-tutoring-20150222-story.html
“Do Asians need higher test scores? Is it harder for Asians to get into college? The answer is yes,”
“College admission season ignites deep anxieties for Asian American families, who spend more than any other demographic on education. At elite universities across the U.S., Asian Americans form a larger share of the student body than they do of the population as a whole. And increasingly they have turned against affirmative action policies that could alter those ratios, and accuse admissions committees of discriminating against Asian American applicants.”
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@michaeljonbarker
“…increasingly they have turned against affirmative action policies that could alter those ratios, and accuse admissions committees of discriminating against Asian American applicants.”
Perhaps that partly explains some of the anti-Black animosity from certain quarters. Not all of it, but that is an angle, I hadn’t considered.
Black and Latino students and their families feel shut out of many college admissions. Maybe we need an overhaul of how students are admitted to colleges and universities.
The state of Texas adopted a sensible top 10 percent rule at one of their flagship state universities and had great results. The top 10 percent of all Texas high school students were automatically admitted. That rule allowed low-income White, Black and Latino students access to a top ranked school. The faculty loved the seriousness of the students. Less partying, more academic rigor.
The group that screamed loudest were affluent Whites whose children had been guaranteed admission before the top 10 percent rule. That led to a major lawsuit, Fisher v. University of Texas.
ProPublica describes what sparked the lawsuit:
https://www.propublica.org/article/a-colorblind-constitution-what-abigail-fishers-affirmative-action-case-is-r
I wonder if a top 10 percent rule would help in other states and be equitable for students of all ethnic backgrounds?
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Good post
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The colour-blind see only their own battles, using the Bootstrap Myth to dismiss Black concerns. They think that bringing race into it, as Black Lives Matter does in its very name, only winds up making things worse not better. – Abagond
The advocating of self denial of lived experience, for the sake of not giving the appearance of being a racist organization is far worse. Why? Because cognitive dissonance is the state of having inconsistent thoughts, beliefs and attitudes, especially as relating to behavioral decisions and attitude change. In order to bring this more in to focus, you don’t see the folks that frequent Stormfront’s website marching in support of the NAACP or Black Lives Matter because this type of behavior would obviously be incongruent with their views and attitude. Hmmmm, … I wonder why!
“The simple answer is that, as a journalist, it was his duty to “convey the pain and grief that can result from misuse of power.” – Abagond
Really, .. huh! “The business of journalists is to destroy the truth, to lie outright, to pervert, to vilify and to fawn at the feet of mammon.” – John Swinton, Journalist
Also:
In retrospect, it’s just too darn unfortunate that an Asian woman didn’t yell the following words to Peter Liang on that fateful night of November 20th, 2014: “Stop! He’s not Black! He’s White! Perhaps Akai Gurley would still be alive today and not forever sealed in an air tight casket.
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Reblogged this on Raimanet.
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“Maybe we need an overhaul of how students are admitted to colleges and universities.”
There’s no maybe about it. At most schools, the admissions system still heavily favors white students from an affluent background who are not the first generation in their family to attend college. Most schools make it a point to ensure their campus stays predominately white.
Many white people who work in admissions hold private biases, whether conscious or unconscious, that affect their decisions. Some don’t keep their feelings private but make blatantly racist statements about the type of students they don’t think should attend their university. They are often highly resistant to diversity training, efforts to increase minority enrollment, and outreach to underserved communities.
“Black and Latino students and their families feel shut out of many college admissions.”
Native Americans as well.
“That rule allowed low-income White, Black and Latino students access to a top ranked school. The faculty loved the seriousness of the students. Less partying, more academic rigor.”
Thanks for pointing that out. It reminded me that I saw this exact dynamic in my own undergrad cohort. The students who came from underprivileged backgrounds and high schools that were not academically rigorous — whether they were poor rural whites or poor inner-city blacks — worked their butts off. They were the group that most people would have guessed least likely to succeed, but these students were generally aware of their academic deficiencies and hit the ground running, studying every night and seeking out help to make up for the gaps in their high school educations. The people I knew out of this group who didn’t graduate were sidelined by financial hardship or family emergencies, not failing grades.
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Interesting post, but a bit discursive compared to your usual laser focus. Starts off being about Aaron Mak, then it’s about BLM for a bit, then it’s about two broad schools of thought about race and racism within the Chinese-American community (as opposed to the larger Asian-American community, which is huge and diverse and has way more than 2 schools of thought).
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As a journalist, it’s Aaron Mak’s job to betray the subjects he writes about. His description of the crowd can be used to prosecute the rioters since he clearly establishes that they were the one who started the fight. The pictures in his white colleague’s camera that he tried to preserve at the risk of his life would have been useful in identifying people at the scene. his claim, echoed by Abagond, that he was there to “convey the pain and grief that can result from misuse of power.” is transparent bs. What I find fascinating is that people on this blog fell hook, line, and sinker for his nonsense because you are so desperate for an “Asian” ally.
”Every journalist who is not too stupid or too full of himself to notice what is going on knows that what he does is morally indefensible. He is a kind of confidence man, preying on people’s vanity, ignorance, or loneliness, gaining their trust and betraying them without remorse.”
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I agree with Gro Jo take on journalism.
As far as “allies” go I don’t think it’s realitic to presume entire groups will sign on to white supremacy arguments. Individuals and some small groups yes but beyond that things like class and personal experience determine how interested and involved people are in regards to social justice. The more successful non whites become on a personal level the more likely there own success blinds them to the oppression of others. I’m generalizing here.
White people think being color blind means that they are not racist and that a color blind society is “good”.
For Asains I think color blind is different because they are being negatively affected for being identified as Asain whereas whites are not being negatively treated for being white. It doesn’t equate as the same comparison.
When Abagond gets around too it I’d like to see a series of articles on education. I don’t think one article limited too 500 words could encompassing all the issues from college admissions to cost from grade school, charter schools and graduation rates ect. I think the education system is a mess. I don’t want to derail this thread with a discussion about it.
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@gro jo
Hah, I thought I was a cynic!
I don’t think any of us “…fell hook, line, and sinker for his nonsense because you are so desperate for an “Asian” ally.”
Perhaps closer to the truth is the thought of an Asian American or Euro-American journalist covering a story in a Black neighborhood doesn’t seem unusual or ominous.
That being said, you made a good point. Many US journalists are de facto agents of the State and should be communicated with in a careful manner. Many who work in the industry share a worldview that is inimical to Black people. In short, they are there to produce bad press that reinforces negative stories and images of Black people.
Is that how you see [ jounalism intern] Mak?
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“Is that how you see [ jounalism intern] Mak?” No. I don’t doubt his sincerity, but as my link to the NYT article, and the quote from it, shows, what somebody chooses to believe about what they do and what they actually do doesn’t necessarily match. A riot is no place to “convey the pain and grief that can result from misuse of power.” The various archives showing how the system was built and maintained is where he should go.
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I object to the patronizing tone depicting Blacks as the eternal victims that I detect in comments such as:
“This is not the case for our Black friends. Many Black people were brought to America as slaves against their will. For centuries, their communities, families, and bodies were ripped apart for profit. Even after slavery, they had to build back their lives by themselves, with no institutional support — not allowed to vote or own homes, and constantly under threat of violence that continues to this day.”
Blacks don’t need sympathy, they need to harness their resources. Hell even Trump is forced to acknowledge that he doesn’t have a prayer of being president with a monolithic black electorate against him. Alliances should be made based on the self interest of both parties. Where Asian and Black interests diverge no need for sugarcoating, each goes his own way. I think that Friend Kiwi should get a guest post to state what he perceives to be Asian interests. We can all throw our two cents in on his claims. I don’t see why his raising objections to indemnification for Blacks should cause him to be labeled an enemy.
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@gro jo
“Blacks don’t need sympathy, they need to harness their resources.”
There is a layer of truth there. I used to think in simple, linear ways about Black people and our lack of progress. Yet, after years of study, I realize there are other layers of complexity beneath that oft-repeated sentiment.
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Alliances should be made based on the self interest of both parties.
Bingo!
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@ Jony:
As a Canadian of Asian descent, I have also witnessed other Asians throwing black folks under the bus where I come from. You don’t know how often I’ve clashed with other Asian folks for defending black people and how I’ve been deemed a traitor to my race. It’s ridiculous. What can I say? I’ve been blessed to have amazing black people in my life. And it sickens me the bs they have to deal with on a daily basis. I’ve been on Abagond’s blog on and off since 2009. While I’m not here for any sort of validation, I just want folks to know not all Asians think the same way. There are some of us who care what happens to Black people.
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@leigh204
“There are some of us who care what happens to Black people.”
There are some of us (Black people) who return your care…thanks!
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“As a Canadian of Asian descent, I have also witnessed other Asians throwing black folks under the bus where I come from. You don’t know how often I’ve clashed with other Asian folks for defending black people and how I’ve been deemed a traitor to my race.” – leigh204
@leigh204, you are the exception, because there aren’t many people that will stand with the Black race these days. It takes an extraordinary woman of courage to lead, speak the truth and stand her ground in the face of a multitude of scoffers, and also refrain from falling into the commonality of being a simple follower. Therefore, continue to be the exception and thank you!
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Wow, all the thanks to leigh204 for being a decent human being proves my point: “What I find fascinating is that people on this blog fell hook, line, and sinker for his nonsense because you are so desperate for an “Asian” ally.”
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@ gro jo
“…you are so desperate for an “Asian” ally.”
Not desperate, appreciative.
I’m still a newbie commenter, but Leigh204 has been a warm, engaging member of the comment community for years. Longer than you or me. She has earned the respect accorded her by the other commenters.
I also appreciate your barbed brilliance and contrarian ways. You help us to not devolve into groupthink or groupspeak by challenging “norms”. To me, that is a good thing.
You are irascible and Leigh204 is amiable—–the commentariat benefits from both of you, our Haitian ally.
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Geez, that’s so sweet, now I’m worried about tooth decay. Ha ha ha.
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@ gro jo:
I don’t think of myself as an ally per se. I think of myself more of a supporter. While I will never understand what it’s like to be black, I believe it’s my responsibility, as you said for “a decent human being”, to do what is right and be there for black people. I’ve been very blessed to have black people in my life since I was a baby and I’m grateful for their love and friendship. It appalls me that the people I love and respect are always being treated like garbage.
Yes, I`m aware the struggle is real. And since I can only speak for myself, I want to put it out there that your struggle becomes “my struggle” and that you`re not alone. I don`t know what I`ve said makes any sense since I`ve been medicating myself due to a bad cold, but I do hope you know what I`m trying to convey.
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I’ve had people of Chinese descent in my life since I was a toddler. They were friends, not allies. Their ethnicity played no part in our friendship, except as fit subject for crude jokes.
I’m a little perplexed by this bending over backward just because you are nice. Clarence Thomas is black are you “there” for him as well? I’m allergic to this racialization of human relationships. If you are my friend, I expect you to support me as a friend, not as a “black friend”.
If you won’t back me up because you disagree with me, then, I expect you to tell me why you can’t, and our relationship will hang in the balance as would occur in any friendship.
I would find it distressing for you to make up excuses for somebody like Thomas just because he’s black. I don’t give people like Harry Lee a break just because he was Chinese. A bastard is a bastard, regardless of race.
The only basis for friendship is shared values, anything else smacks of condescension.
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@gro jo
Clarence Thomas is black are you “there” for him as well?
That is quite a humongous straw man. One fit only for the last night of the Burning Man Festival.
You well may be “allergic to this racialization of human relationships.” I can’t speak for others, but I don’t see it that way. I see human connection and decency (something in short supply these days). I don’t care which ethnic wrapper it comes in, I welcome it.
You are free to disagree (and you will—–I suspect just for the fun of it), but other viewpoints are valid.
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Afrofem, I’m deeply hurt, we were getting on so well. Too bad! You call my Thomas claim a straw man argument, how so? Lots of disgusting black people in the world, why should any decent human being be “there” for them? Scum comes in all colors.
We definitely disagree if you think that Blacks require pity from other races, as the third paragraph of your post seems to indicate. The problem with blacks, as I see it, is the habit of wallowing in self-pity and accepting patronizing pats on the head as their due. In my book, the only basis for friendship is shared values. Somebody who pities you is not a friend but a patron.
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“You are free to disagree (and you will—–I suspect just for the fun of it), but other viewpoints are valid.”
I do disagree, because in my book other viewpoints have no value.
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@gro jo
There is less daylight between us than you think. I agree “scum comes in all colors”. Decency also comes in all colors.
I also find Black self pity and supplication revolting. However, where you may declare something as “pity”, I strive to determine motivations, benefits and liabilities.
Allies are not always friends. I know that sounds counter intuitive. Sometimes people ally for a specific objective and still have some fundamental disagreements in worldview. Such an alliance only works when you are standing on your own two feet. Then you can take that alliance or leave it.
I agree that Black people are not as strong as I would like them to be, yet, Black people are not helpless, either. I think one reason the White Power Establishment (WPE) tries to crush our spirits generation after generation is because Black people are fully capable of making this country live up to its vaunted ideals. We came so very close in the 1960s and 1970s. It so terrified the WPE that they have been in containment (prison), dispersal (gentrification) and counterinsurgency (militarized police) mode for the past half century.
Where you see pity and patronizing, I might see something else——opportunities to develop shared values and shared action.
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@gro jo
“I do disagree, because in my book other viewpoints have no value.”
Oh well….
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@ Kiwi
“This has been a hot topic on the Asian American blogosphere for a long time.”
Could you post a link or two? Is there a specific blog post that you feel does a thorough and even-handed job of laying out this argument in detail?
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@ Gro jo:
I’m Canadian. lol! We’re always nice, well, we’re supposed to be anyway.
I am friends with anyone who treats me well. Maybe it’s just me but I don’t refer to any of my friends as that “Asian friend” or that “black friend”. A friend is a friend.
Why would I make excuses for Clarence Thomas or Harry Lee because they’re Black or Chinese. As you said, “a bastard is a bastard, regardless of race”. I don’t give one iota for them.
Anyway, as far back as I can remember, I’ve always been interested in doing what I can to support black people and not because they’re black. That’s silly. I care about black people because black people have been in my life since Day One. I’ve witnessed their pain, seen the injustices, and it angered me that beautiful people are being mistreated simply because of the colour of their skin. I honestly don’t know what to say anymore. I guess take what I say at face value. I’ll leave it at that.
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@Jony
I hope you can see that unlike about the 80+% of blacks in the USA whose ancestors lived through US slavery and Jim Crow, there is no single narrative which the majority of any other group can share. Chinese Americans in particular have a very disparate narrative. About 30% trace their origin to the pre-60s exclusion era periods (which often have some link to the pre-1880s coolie trade), while the rest vary between refugees, brain drain, wealthy investor and poor underclass labourer, some which are debt bonded. Their origin can also trace to different geographic regions and different languages, dialects and religions. Even within each of those groups, they do not agree on many things. There is no narrative which links them together (other than being treated similarly by non-Asian Americans).
Since Japanese American immigration has never been that large post WWII, the majority of Japanese Americans do share the the legacy of the internment camp experience and the alien land registration laws. But even that narrative does not cover everyone (for example, the ones whose ancestors came via Hawaii).
I assume that you are asking the question with respect to issues such as Black Lives Matter and other racial, equality and civil rights issues that many US blacks are concerned about. As you can see outlined in the post, there is a wide spectrum of stances that you will find on this issue.
Undoubtedly, on many issues, there is common ground and shared interests. Fighting for black civil rights helps everyone. Prior to the Affirmative Action era, everyone was left out of “white” professions and industries. If black lives don’t matter, then no one feels safe. People of all races can be “rented”. And a white-washed Hollywood with few blacks means even less of everyone else.
But what your question does not cover, and what this post does not cover and what this blog in general does not cover is the flip side of this question. How are Asians to make of the “black” community, esp. on issues which Asian Americans think about and face on a regular basis? In many instances, blacks are simply silent. In other cases, they might be led to having a (your words) “gut feeling is that they’d side with whites to throw us under the bus so that they can have a seat in the big house. “
(Not just various Asian groups might feel this way, but also many Native Americans and Latinos. At times, they might see blacks siding with Whites in issues that affect them.) Yet somehow, when blacks do do that, they often do not see themselves as siding with “whites” or doing things to reinforce white supremacy against other POC. Seeing things in terms of black and white might make them blind to it.
The reason is because white supremacy in America is not simply something imposed upon blacks in a single racial hierarchy scheme. There are at least 3 main separate pillars of white supremacy operating simultaneously, and even those pillars have many subpillars.
Abagond has made a grand effort to try to start to address some issues which affect relations between/among blacks and other POC. However, we cannot just look at one side of the coin. The flip side has to be examined as well.
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I hope by now, Abagond has some insight into this. One only has to read / watch the white liberal media to see what the depiction is. It is completely a Teflon view of history. Imagine how a white liberal would write the Asian American narrative.
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@ Kiwi
What Asian American blogs do you recommend?
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I will only speak for myself, but hell yes, I’ve been accused numerous times by other Asians for being a race traitor because I support Black causes. And also there are Asians who have definitely thrown black people under the bus. So stop it with that bull.
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leigh204, you could have reduced your post to one sentence: “Gro Jo, I agree with you”. “I’m Canadian. lol! We’re always nice, well, we’re supposed to be anyway.” Don’t belabor the “cute” part of your persona so much. Just my opinion, of course.
“Why would I make excuses for Clarence Thomas or Harry Lee because they’re Black or Chinese. As you said, “a bastard is a bastard, regardless of race”. I don’t give one iota for them.
Anyway, as far back as I can remember, I’ve always been interested in doing what I can to support black people and not because they’re black. That’s silly. I care about black people because black people have been in my life since Day One. I’ve witnessed their pain, seen the injustices, and it angered me that beautiful people are being mistreated simply because of the colour of their skin. I honestly don’t know what to say anymore. I guess take what I say at face value. I’ll leave it at that.”
You’re a sensible lady, I’d already deduced as much from my interactions with you on this blog.
I’d like to hear from you about the injustices you’ve experienced as a Filipina. I’m currently reading “My Search for Ramanujan How I Learned to Count” by Ken Ono. I know that life as an Asian-American isn’t a bowl of cherries.Ono’s upper class white neighbors pulled pranks against his family like leaving a burning bag of feces on his doorstep. By all means, let’s have the power of Asian’s tears, since, like Jacques, Kiwi has accused Abagond of falling down on the job. A guest post by our ‘beloved’ Kiwi is in order.
He should explain why and how such disparate groups as Chinese and Indian or non-white, or white Australians, etc., share a common identity that allows him, a Chinese-American, to speak authoritatively for all of them.
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leigh204,
In the words of the inimitable Luis D. Ortiz, of Million Dollar Listing New York: “I law you too.” Ha ha ha.
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@jony
“My gut feeling is that they’d side with whites to throw us under the bus so that they can have a seat in the big house.”
Well we saw the reaction to that murderer Peter Lie-ang.
Sorry, but no one should expect any group, including Asian Americans, to show any decency to blacks, regardless if it was blacks who fought for the rights every Asian American enjoys today. Like the wise Dr. John Henrik Clarke said, “You have no friends”.
@leigh204
” And also there are Asians who have definitely thrown black people under the bus. So stop it with that bull.”
Fat chance Kiwi ever stops the B.S.
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@abagond
I think kiwi has good points. He has his opinion and you, Leigh, etc have yours. Asians often have their own issues that no one cares about, not even many Asians. These issues do not always fit into the black/white paradigm.
I’m not kiwi, but bigwowo is one in that sphere.
Not “asian” per SE, but on reddit, r/Hapas talks about issues among Eurasians and problematic dynamics in asian (and white) cultures. However it can have moments of anger that turn many off. Many are angry at their (most asian moms and white dads) and to an outsider this can look racist towards Asian women and white men.
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Personally my issues towards college opportunities from an issue perspective may not be directed towards “affirmative action” but instead directed towards (mostly white?) college administrators who don’t blink an eye at stereotyping Asians and calling us “robots” and generalizing us. Or to put it more shortly, quotas on Asians. I suppose my ire is placed on those who run colleges rather the “affirmative action recipients.”
I also resent the (historical and current) enemy imaging of Asians that continues to hurt us. See: xiaoxing xi, sherry Chen, wen ho lee.
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@solitaire
Perhaps this is what kiwi mentions? https://www.reddit.com/r/asianamerican/comments/4thbnh/asian_canadians_launch_letter_campaign_to_address/
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There’s that, and I think white-worship and self-hate is a huge problem in the asian community as well. This can manifest in different ways, but one can be anti-blackness, but another is latching onto white liberalism, which is what some like kiwi probably think. Another one for me, is the gender division in the asian community due to asian men and women being percieved differently, with women hyoersexualized and men desexualization. Paired with self-hate and white worship this can create toxic dynamics and consequences: http://abagond.tumblr.com/post/87084270569/hapas-and-self-racism
“My concern is that this non-stop focus from asian activists on black issues may end up dividing our community. I mean all we hear about is Anti-Blackness from both Black and Asian activists, and yes i admit this is certainly an issue but like usual there is almost zero recognition of Anti-Asian sentiments in the black community or from our most vocal activists which once again make asian people feel both isolated and uncared for even by those who proclaim to carry our banner. There is always two sides of a story but even now, our community seems to be taking the sole blame in the midst of the Asian/Black community relationship and it happens without acknowledging that there are real issues here.”
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@ Женщина
I’m a relatively new commenter here, and I don’t recognize your username right off, so please forgive me for asking, but are you new here or an old-timer who just hasn’t posted for awhile?
The reason I ask is there’s been a lot of drama and conflict lately centering around Kiwi, most of it concerning tensions between the African American and Asian American communities. If you haven’t been lurking and reading along for several months, you might want to get a sense of what’s been going on. Take a look at Abagond’s posts (and the threads that follow them) from this year’s Asian American Month, especially the one on the Asian Supremacy Argument, as well as the Peter Liang link above (at the end of this post).
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@solitaire
I’ve lurked for years though I often don’t read the comments as much
Yeah, ideological tensions have been around lately, I am fimiliar with that. Not just black-asian tensions but within the Asians as well. It’s symptom of divided society and divided groups.
For millennial asian Americans arguing, it seems to be between these Main groups: asian that think Asians less oppressed than other non-white groups and see alliance with non-white groups as a sort of “white knight” and think other non-white issues more important, Asians that see alliance because they are all oppressed, and Asians that think Asians are oppressed and should align if interests are shared but not if interests diverge. There is a smaller fourth group that thinks Asians are oppressed but don’t share many interests with other groups and that these interests often clash and that other groups don’t care for Asians so why should Asians care for them.
There are also gender disparities. Which I generally think is because Asians are the most gender divided due to 1: lack of common “Asian American” identity and 2: Asians being seen and treated very differently based on gender.
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@ Женщина
That’s a good breakdown of several different attitudes in the Asian American community re activism and coalition-building. Your explanation widens the narrower binary description upthread and adds to the discussion.
My objective for asking what I did, though, was a lot less theoretical. What’s been going on lately hasn’t just been an academic discussion of black-Asian tensions. There’s been a lot of in-fighting, personal attacks, and animosity. To be blunt, there are a lot of people who are fed up with Kiwi right now, and he in turn is very angry at a lot of them (and apparently the world in general). I don’t want you to get accidentally caught up in that mess out of ignorance of the mindfield you’re stepping into.
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*minefield
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Why has Kiwi not protested this barbaric attack on an Asian, could it be because the guy was too black? http://photographyisnotacrime.com/2016/01/14/alabama-cop-acquitted-of-excessive-force-that-left-indian-man-paralyzed/
What will Kiwi do to stop the demonization of Asians for real estate price increases in Canada? http://www.straight.com/news/735161/revisiting-real-estate-race-and-how-foreign-buyers-narrative-came-dominate-vancouver
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@solitaire
Yeah I can see that. I’ve stayed out of a lot of that fighting though.
@gro Jo
The indian grandfather has gotten plenty of outrage among Asians. Many Asians also talk about the enemy imaging and increased resentment exemplified by the second link. Especially ethnically chinese Asians. Unfortunately, as mainland China ‘rises’ and gets more assertive, many are threatened by it (much like they werd of japan in the 80’s) and this has played out in increasing ways. Hate crimes and robberies against East Asians have increased as a result of being percieved as wealthy, for example.
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Женщина
“The indian grandfather has gotten plenty of outrage among Asians.” Really? How about a link showing demonstrations like the ones for Peter Liang? Seems to me that ‘outrage’ is usually reserved for those deemed ‘inferior’. Ken Ono’s family put up with the harassment of their white neighbors without ever reporting any of it to the police! Being part Asian yourself, maybe you’d care to tackle some of the questions I raised above?
“A guest post by our ‘beloved’ Kiwi is in order.
He should explain why and how such disparate groups as Chinese and Indian or non-white, or white Australians, etc., share a common identity that allows him, a Chinese-American, to speak authoritatively for all of them.” In other words, isn’t the Asian-American label just another name for what used to be called the Mongoloid (Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc,) races? Aren’t people like Kiwi doing a form of ‘peaceful rise’ by claiming to ‘speak’ for all Asians? How come we never hear about the real tribulations of Hmong-Americans from their ‘Asian’ self-styled spokesmen? Ethnic politics is usually brutal and hypocritical.
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Here are a couple links for anyone interested. I may post more later when I have time.
http://aacre.org/
AACRE (Asian Americans for Civil Rights and Equality) “is a network committed to social justice.”
Organizations in the network include:
– Asian Prisoner Support Committee
– Alliance of South Asians Taking Action
– Chinese for Affirmative Action
– Hmong Innovating Politics
– Network on Religion and Justice for Asian and Pacific Islander Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Queer People
——————————————–
http://www.advancingjustice-la.org/media-and-publications/press-releases/over-160-asian-american-and-pacific-islander-groups-file
(2015)
“Asian Americans Advancing Justice (Advancing Justice), the Asian American Legal Defense and Education Fund (AALDEF), and the National Asian Pacific American Bar Association (NAPABA), have filed three separate amicus briefs urging the nation’s highest court to uphold University of Texas at Austin’s (UT-Austin) affirmative action policy.
“Together, the briefs represent over 160 organizations in support of equal opportunity and affirmative action in higher education, representing the tremendous diversity within Asian American and Pacific Islander (AAPI) communities, including Arab, Filipino, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, South Asian, Southeast Asian, and Pacific Islander organizations.”
“Based on U.S. Census Bureau data, the educational attainment of Hmong, Cambodian, Laotian, and Vietnamese Americans is the lowest among Asian American ethnic groups and similar to those of Latinos and African Americans. Only 61 percent of Hmong Americans hold a high school diploma, while only 12 percent of Laotian Americans have graduated from college.”
“The National Asian Pacific American Bar Association (NAPABA) amicus brief, filed by the Coalition of Bar Associations of Color (CBAC), consisting of NAPABA, the Hispanic National Bar Association (HNBA), the National Bar Association (NBA), and the National Native American Bar Association (NNABA), highlights the importance of race conscious admissions policies in order to preserve a diverse pipeline of individuals into the legal profession.”
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One more:
National Council of Asian Pacific Americans
http://www.ncapaonline.org/coalition_members
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“Based on U.S. Census Bureau data, the educational attainment of Hmong, Cambodian, Laotian, and Vietnamese Americans is the lowest among Asian American ethnic groups and similar to those of Latinos and African Americans. Only 61 percent of Hmong Americans hold a high school diploma, while only 12 percent of Laotian Americans have graduated from college.”
Our Asian avenger (Kiwi) has nothing to say about these facts, why is that? His ‘big’ problem is telling Asian women whom they can date and why is there a Black Mural in a school where most of the students are Asian!
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National Coalition for Asian Pacific American Community Development, “Spotlight on Asian American and Pacific Islander Poverty: A Demographic Profile”
http://nationalcapacd.org/spotlight-asian-american-and-pacific-islander-poverty-demographic-profile
“With the recent attention to Asians in the United States as a relatively economically successful population, … it is easy to overlook the nearly two million Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders … who live in poverty.”
“AAPI poor are one of the fastest growing poverty populations in the wake of the Recession. …The only other racial/ ethnic group with a larger percentage increase was Hispanic, with a 42% increase.”
“Almost 60% of the net increase in AAPI poverty was in the native born segment of the population. … The rate of increase and the net numeric increase was higher for native born poor than for immigrant poor.”
“The ethnic composition of AAPI poverty is diverse. The US Census shows significant numbers of poor people from over two dozen AAPI sub-populations.”
“From 2000 to 2010, AAPI poverty has increased in every region of the country except for NHPIs {Native Hawaiians/Pacific Islanders} in the Northeast, with some of the largest increases in the South. In the South, AA poverty populations grew by over 50% and NHPIs by over 100%.”
“Over 40% of all poor AAs and over 75% of all poor NHPIs are in the Western Region (regions as defined by the US Census), with the highest populations in the Pacific subregion (consists of California, Hawaii, Washington, Oregon and Alaska).”
“AAPI poor tend to live in mixed-race/multi-cultural neighborhoods. While most poor people (over 55%) live in majority non-Hispanic White neighborhoods, most AAPI poor (57% for AAs, 62% for NHPIs) live in “majority minority” neighborhoods where a minority group — or a mix of minority groups — compose more than 50% of the population. For AAs living in these neighborhoods, more than half (over 54%) live in neighborhoods where no single racial/ethnic group is more than 50% of the population.”
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This is a description of the coalition who produced the article above:
http://nationalcapacd.org/about-national-capacd
“National Coalition for Asian Pacific American Community Development’s (National CAPACD) mission is to improve the quality of life for low-income Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders by promoting economic vitality, civic and political participation, and racial equity.”
“National CAPACD was established to support nonprofit organizations working in economically distressed AAPI communities where AAPIs struggle with linguistic isolation, low educational attainment, poverty, high housing costs, housing overcrowding, and low homeownership rates.”
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@tellijf Asia women who they can date
If he complains of a black mural that’s dumb. But the asian date part is much complicated.
Many here have probably heard of the phenomena of black men who trash black women. This also interacts with the phenomena of society treating the genders unequally where black men are more “sexually desirable” than black women. Black male/white female is more common than the reverse which “confirms” societal views. Well, a similar phenomena exists among Asians, but with gender reversed.
Abagond has gone several posts on asian fetishes and many here may not be surprised that many alt righters hypocritically have asian fetishes. But on the flip side, many asian have “white fetish.” The phenomena of asian women dissing Asian men and wanting white men while shittig on asian men is there, though it’s become more subtle as 1: people become more aware of this “self hating asian girl” phenomenon and 2: asian men’s image has improved.
The problem for people like this who diss their opposite gender counterpart, is what happens when they have mixed children that, well, resemble the opposite gender counterpart?
IMO there is nothing wrong with asian men having misgivings with this, it’s perfectly understandable. I dislike that people always seem to trivialize issues that may matter to asian men (and women.) Both black women and asian men are seen as undesirable by society and often have their opposite gender counterparts further shutting on them, I see nothing wrong with having a problem with and resenting this.
As for me? We all know asian women are stereotyped as “easy for white men.” And personally I resent this and I dislike “creepy white guys” who think I and other girls would throw ourselves at them. Most asian girls aren’t self hating, but the self hating ones are often the most vocal and end up getting propped up by whites. These women also annoy the shit out of me. I don’t care if they want to date white, but I care that many can’t seem to do so without vocally throwing asian men under the bus and basically, seeig white men as a “step up.” basically, out of white worship. And as I said above, bigger problem comes in whe these women who trash asian men have Eurasian sons considered asian men by society and get the same shit from people.
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See the abagond tumblr post above.
Asian women are commonly fetishized by alt right men as well: http://www.fstdt.com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=107093
Also: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eu0TYCKZ9Bc)
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http://www.naac.org/about-us/
“The National Asian American Coalition is a unique organization. We have a Board of Directors more diverse than any in corporate America; it includes Blacks, Whites, Latinos, Korean Americans, Chinese Americans, Japanese Americans, and Filipino Americans. In addition, Vietnamese American and Cambodian Americans are key members of our staff.”
“Working closely with prominent Black, Latino and other Asian American organizations, it is our intention to be a resource for all corporate and governmental leaders that wish to ensure that they have a diverse 21st Century blueprint and footprint.”
“Recent Advocacy Efforts: … [NAAC] reached a settlement agreement with California’s largest public utility, PG&E, that will require multimillion of dollars in special language and cultural outreach even to small sub-Asian American groups such as the Hmong and Cambodian populaces”
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http://www.apiasf.org/about_us.html
“The Asian & Pacific Islander American Scholarship Fund (APIASF) is the nation’s largest non-profit provider of college scholarships for Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders (AAPI).”
“In America today, 13 percent of Asian Americans and 18 percent of Pacific Islanders live at or below poverty, compared to 12 percent of the general population, with some ethnicities at 29 percent (Cambodian) and even 38 percent (Hmong and Marshallese) of the population at or below poverty.”
“APIASF provides scholarships to underserved AAPI students with a special focus on those who:
“- Live at or below the poverty level, or are otherwise of low socioeconomic status;
– Are the first in their families to attend college;
– Are representative of the AAPI community’s diversity, geographically and ethnically, especially those ethnicities that have been underrepresented on college campuses due to limited access and opportunity; and
– Have placed strong emphasis on community service and leadership as well as solid academic achievement.”
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I think this is a very serious mental health problem in US society. Of course most figure out a socially acceptable solution to live with this cognitive dissonance, but some don’t, and a few of the cases even make national headline news.
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@ Solitaire
You are correct, I am one of those that live well below the poverty line.
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@ TeddyBearDaddy
I’m sorry to hear it. I hope things improve for you.
I believe it is important to challenge and correct the image promoted in the mainstream media of unlimited Asian American wealth and success. There is dire poverty and need in the AAPI community, and there are multi-ethnic AAPI organizations working to address those issues. This rarely appears in the media because it runs counter to stereotypes about Asians as the “model minority.”
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@ Kiwi
Thanks!
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@Kiwi
“…Asian American far left, which has in large part been groomed to be subservient to White liberal interests.”
It is not the purported subservience of the Asian American “far left'” to White Liberal interests that is offensive to Asian Supremacists, it is their coalition building with Latinos, Muslims and “undeserving” Black people. The purported “far left” Asian Americans see themselves as Americans and realize that we all rise or fall together.
If they were truly subservient to White interests of any political stripe, they would be hailed as “forward thinkers”. Instead they are allying themselves with the people striving for justice and equality for all Americans——-not just one group of Americans.
Quelle Horreur
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@ leigh204
Oh, right. But there are no Blacks who have thrown Asians under the bus (like on this blog) or Asians who throw their own under the bus (like yourself).
People like you are exactly what is wrong with modern Asian American progressivism. Instead of recognizing anti-Asian racism by all races, not just Whites, you sideline Asian causes by making it all about White oppression and Black victimization. Not only is it a patronizing world view, it’s hypocritical because you don’t apply the same reasoning to Asians. You see them as complicit in anti-Blackness, alongside Whites, with nary a peep about how the same dynamic plays out when Blacks do the same exact s–t to other races, often alongside Whites.
LOL! You don’t know jack about me. You only know what you’ve read on this blog. I knew what was on the up and up since I was a child because my parents taught me Black people weren’t the terrible people they were made out to be by White people. And, yes, there are plenty of willing Asians sucking on White teats who have already thrown Black people under the bus. I’ve witnessed it. So sit yourself down. As for throwing other Asians under the bus, only KISSASS Asians deserve it. If I think you’re a kissass, hell, yes, I’ll call you out on it. You don’t speak for me. I speak for me and only me.
If someone like Davon Neverdon murdered your husband because he’s Korean, just like he did to Joel Lee, and a mostly Black jury acquitted him because he was the same race as them, you would absolutely do a complete 180 regarding your stance towards unconditional, pandering support of Blacks.
How would you know my stance on Blacks would change if a mostly Black jury acquitted the black man who murdered my Korean husband? You must know more about me and the thoughts going through my head than I do. Funny that.
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One Asian blog or website I can think of is Racefiles.com
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@ Leigh and @afrofrm
Just because someone does not think just like you does not make them “asian supremacists” and “white kiss asses.” I have seen nothing in kiwi’s writings that suggests he is either of them. He has a fundamentally different view than you, that is all. He argues his view fairly, it is a disservice to throw those labels at him when his words have done nothing to merit it.
I think both Leigh and kiwi are right, in that the “white worshipping, anti black” Asians Ceetainly exist. But so do Asians who indeed subordinate asian issues behind other groups’ issues, and it is unsurprising that this rubs many the wrong way. Your experience of anti-black Asians is valid, but many Asians (especially in working class) have also experienced anti-asian racism from blacks, is their experience less real or valid than yours? Ultimately, if a coalition is to work, it needs to not demean and minimize the experiences and views of someone just because those views do not match yours
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@Женщина
There comments to kiwi go well beyond this thread and there are a lot of things kiwi has said that are anti-black. So what they say is based off a collection of things he has said.
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@ Kiwi:
For someone who I USED to think was quite the intellectual, you’re dumb as fcuk. On this very blog, I have said my parents immigrated to Canada due to their line of work. At the time, companies in certain provinces in Canada were hiring overseas. And the Philippines was one of those places. My parents jumped at the opportunity, left their homeland and moved to Canada where there was, hello, mostly white people to begin with. And they lived in a neigbourhood with, what again, white people! IMAGINE THAT!! A predominantly white country with white people as neighbours. Who would’ve thought such a thing? Blows my mind, I tell ya!
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@shrinlair
If that’s true then it’s a pity.
There are many legitimate misgivings expressed in the blogs he links as well as some of my links, and these are never addressed in, well, “mainstream” Asian American activists.
For many asian Americans, there is indeed the sentiment that no one cares about asians, and that many asian activists put other peoples’ issues above theirs. They seem to take a stance that “we need to fight for ourselves because no one else will.”
It’s unfortunate if kiwi has anti black sentiments. But that does not change that issues he raises are real to many and should not be dismissed just because some end up expressing anti black sentiments. It is possible to acknowledge issues without falling into anti black sentiment
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@Женщина:
As I said earlier, my parents immigrated to Canada due to their line of work. My mom was a sewing machine operator and my dad was a welder. Is that not working class? They experienced racism not by Black people but by white people. I have written my family’s experiences as well as my experiences on Abagond’s blog. Our experiences are indeed valid. I will speak for myself once again, but I do agree with you that we shouldn’t belittle and minimize someone else’s views that we don’t agree with. I will say I can get carried away when I’m passionate about something. I can’t say the same about Kiwi.
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My parents are middle class, but they also face the most racism from whites. There are fewer black people they interact with, but of the ones they do interact with they tend to prefer because they feel they are treated more fairly. One of my dad’s closest friends is actually a black man retired general from poor background who seemed to develop soft spot for Asians because when he enrolled in grad school the only professor that would take him on was an Asian one, interestingly enough
On an Asian issue, One issue I think is increasingly problem for middle class chinese-Americans at least, is that sinophobia and chinese spy paranoia has ramped up in last few years. Many have gotten hurt by this, like xiaoxing xi, sherry Chen, etc
For example, investigators showed up my parents a few times, and no, not with any notification beforehand. They didn’t arrest my parents, but they won’t stop harassing them, and it’s several different investigation places. NSA, FBI, etc. And they wouldn’t tell my folks why. A few other chinese American (and one chinese/russian couple) had the same shit happen to them. Investigation/authorities breaking into their house and labs.
They finally “stopped” after my folks got a lawyer. Lawyer said that from now on if they did to again, they would need to inform lawyer and get his approval first.
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@Женщина
The issues he brings up are legitimate and none of the people he is speakings to is dismissing them, but I do understand and realize why. In fact I remember a thread where it was discussed how Asians do not support other Asians in fighting for injustices. How a Asian blogger spoke on not getting support from other Asians. Kiwi got upset about people pointing that out. It is not just the ant-black attitudes, but kiwi is anti-anyone that does not agree with him and that includes other Asians that have been speaking on their own experiences.
I am summarizing it, but it goes much deeper and people are tired of him dismissing them and speaking for them.
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^ Exactly, Sharina! EXACTLY!! (Leave it up to Kiwi to say, oh there goes Leigh being “down with Blacks” again.)
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Let me jump in this debate with my two cents. Kiwi, you are entitled to feel anyway you want about Blacks. What I want to know is what are you going to do to ‘avenge’ “Asians”? What are you going to do to stop the demonization of Chinese real estate buyers in Canada, bullying of “Asians” in schools,etc.? Please define what you mean by “Asian” since Asians belong to all the known races. Женщина, you might want to try answering my questions.
http://www.8asians.com/2011/11/01/asian-american-students-are-most-bullied-in-school/comment-page-1/
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@Kiwi
“When Blacks push their own causes, they are said to be fighting for everyone. Why is that?”
Three words: Historical track record.
The Voting Rights Act has a provision that any group that meets a certain population threshold locally must have ballots printed in their language. In my area that rule enables the local Chinese American population to vote with ballots printed in Chinese.
The Fair Housing Act enabled all ethnic groups to live in the neighborhood of their choice (at least theoretically) without concern about restrictive covenants based on race, religion or nationality.
The Immigration Act of 1965 was partly enabled by activism by African Americans (as well as Italian Americans and others). More detail here:
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@gro Jo
Well, I am not ” on kiwis side” so to speak. I only point out that many issues he points out are legitimate too, as are issues you point out. I’m not sure what kiwi thinks, but I think the issues pointed out in your link are indeed huge problems. Asians are still seen as easy targets. The productive thing would be to discuss what can be done about it. The first step I think would be to encourage more assertiveness and “fighting back” as I think many (especially fob) asian parents do unintentionally discourage it due to cultural gaps and cultural knowledge gaps about growing up asian in the west.
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Женщина, Where have I claimed you were on Kiwi’s side? I’d like some clarity on who is an “Asian”? My readings tell me that Asians are black, white, brown and yellow, so what do you or Kiwi understand by “Asian”?
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“Asians are still seen as easy targets.”—This is true, but a lot of why they are is because they are not standing up for themselves. So many Asian blogs do speak on this, but it becomes frustrating when you are trying to get Asians to get on the same page of their issues. As to Asians engaging in black issues, I think they realize that there is a stark difference between police brutality and admission quotas. One is deadly and a major issue that could end up being them. Does this mean that I think Asians should put every effort into support blacks? No. However multi-tasking is not that hard. The real questions that Asians need to address is why the lack of support when Asian activist take on Asian issues?
Also people like kiwi make jokes out of Asian issues by claiming everything as racist against Asians and silencing people on things that are not even racist. I say the same thing to blacks who scream racism at everything because it drowns out legitimate racist claims. It hinders that work of activist to bring awareness to their causes and makes it a joke.
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@ Kiwi
What Asian American causes are most important to you?
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@shrinlair
For me, my personal big ‘Asian’ issue is not admission quotas, but as a Chinese-American, it’s increasingly McCarthy 2.0 if you are Chinese in STEM. Google Xiaoxing Xi, sherry chen, etc. It has gotten increasingly bad within the last 5 years or so.
Bascially, the increasing American police state, surveillance, meeting the increased enemy imaging of China because, at the end of the day, China is a increasing threat to US hegemony just like Japan in the 80’s or Russia in the mid-century. It is hurting Chinese Americans, and I believe it will hurt other Asians too because, well, the average American thinks we all look alike anyway.
This summer investigators showed up my parents a few times, and no, not with any notification beforehand. They didn’t arrest my parents, but they won’t stop harassing them, And it’s several different investigation places. And they wouldn’t tell my folks why. A few other chinese American (and one chinese/russian couple) had the same shit happen to them. Investigation/authorities breaking into their house and labs.
They finally “stopped” after my folks got a lawyer. Lawyer said that from now on if they did to again, they would need to inform lawyer and get his approval first.
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Warning: mundane politics spat (aka mentioning HRC) thrown in
my dad now has a special “tab” looking physical thingy to even access his work email! Something to confirm it’s him I dunno. But Xiaoxing Xi got fucked over because uncle sam thought his emails were fishy (they weren’t) so much that they broke into his house, pointed their guns at him and his family’s backs to the wall, and dragged him to jail before being acquitted of all charges a few months later. Which reminds me, and this pisses me off. Uncle Sam thought average joe scientist Xi was suspicious (without proof and due process) so they dragged him to jail with no due process, yet Hillary Clinton can do what she did and nothing happens? What?
It makes me think, that if you or I or the average joe next door did what Hillary Clinton did we’d already be in jail for life (at best.) Makes me think, yeah, laws don’t apply to the elite, but moreso, the increasing police state dosen’t apply to the elite, does it?
tl;dr an elite like Hillary Clinton will never get thrown in jail without due process the way average joes increasingly are, will they?
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@ Женщина
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@ Afrofem
Good question. I hope Kiwi responds.
@ leigh204
Would you mind sharing as well? What Asian Canadian causes or issues are most important to you?
@ Женщина
That’s really scary. I hope the harassment stops. Make sure your parents are very clear on their rights and that they don’t talk to anyone again without their lawyer present.
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@Kiwi
The Native American Tribe argument is a straw man. You will have to do better than that.
I would appreciate your going into more detail about Asian American causes that resonate with you. Plus I would like to know what you are doing to advance those causes?
Who is Davon Neverdon?
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I oppose anti-Asian bias in school admission policies. They need to be lowered the same as whites.
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” I got many Asians to sign the petition opposing it because we suspected it would discriminate against Asians. I tried to get other races to sign, but they weren’t as thrilled.” Since was Asian a race?
” on Thu 1 Sep 2016 at 03:38:21
gro jo
Женщина, Where have I claimed you were on Kiwi’s side? I’d like some clarity on who is an “Asian”? My readings tell me that Asians are black, white, brown and yellow, so what do you or Kiwi understand by “Asian”?”
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@ Michael Jon Barker
Right. Lowering the admissions standards for Asian Americans to match the standards for white students does not have to mean the end of affirmative action in admissions for underrepresented groups. The competition should be between white students and Asian American students, and any resultant drop in demographics should be among white students, not blacks, Native Americans, or non-white Hispanics.
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I’m not as up on California politics as I used to be. If SCA5 is intended to overturn Prop 209, I can see why many POC would support it.
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Shaw from another thread.
“To deny a variation in mental capability is to lie to oneself.”
So he points to the low affirmative action placement scores and says “see Black people are stupid”.
What those low scores represent is the utter failure of the school system to deliver the same quality of education to Hispanics and Blacks.
In California part of the problem is that it is next to impossible to fire incompetent teachers. What happens is incompetent teachers get rotated down to schools in working class communities and young bright teachers who start in working class and so called problem schools get rewarded by being rotated to middle class and better performing schools. The school system is suppose to report pedophiles to the police but they don’t. They get rotated to poor and working class schools where they will continue their depravity until the kids become old enough to remember it and report it to the police. One teacher, who amongst other depravities, was feeding his kids seamon encrusted cookies. When the police showed up to take him away they had to put him in an armored suit because they were afraid that some parent would show up and cut him in half with a shotgun.
I don’t know how to go about “reforming” the public school system. The California teachers union is the most powerful enterprise in the state. They have the political class in their pockets. I’m not suggesting a Scott Walker approach but the system here is broke.
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@ Michael Jon Barker
Good points. Personally I’ve always felt the larger problem is the unequal distribution of funds to different school districts and systems. I know this raises questions of local control and local funding through the local tax base. However, it seems to me that we may have reached a point where school funds should be distributed equitably by either the state governments or the federal government. I include in that not just teacher salaries but building funds for upkeep or replacement construction, funds for textbooks, computer labs, science equipment, and other supplies, etc.
I know you are opposed to too much control by a large central government, but right now the local control of schools is resulting in an inequitable educational system along both racial and class lines. I’m not sure how else to fix it, at least in the short-term, except by increased federal oversight and intervention, perhaps along the lines of one of the European models.
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@ Kiwi
Can you provide more information about SCA5 specifically?
Are there other Asian American issues that you are involved with?
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@Женщина
Thank you for sharing
“McCarthy 2.0 if you are Chinese in STEM”—When I looked up the names you mention, I can’t help but think of another Asian individual who went through similar. I can’t think of this name and I can’t really detail the circumstance, but he was labeled a traitor. Another commenter mention the growing concern of China being a threat and it is nice to have someone account to what is happening to Chinese as a result. I wanted to find stats on how many Asians are in STEM to see how many were effected and how many should definitely be protesting. I couldn’t and it does not really matter the amount as it effects all Asians in the long run. Has there been any talk within the community in regards to what actions to take? This needs to be addressed because in the long run it could effect everyone. People need to be made aware.
“This summer investigators showed up my parents a few times, and no, not with any notification beforehand.”—Sadly those actions are not surprising. Where they FBI or local police. It escalates the situation with them being FBI because they seem to have different “get away” rules.
Glad your parents were unharmed.
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@Kiwi
You know, it actually is quite a sad and desperate thing to see you make up stuff about me being Anti-Asian. Considering those very threads contradicts the very things you say. 😉
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@ Kiwi
It’s time educate Asians in Asia and everywhere in the Universe on the true meaning of ‘white supremacy’ including the desire to attend institutions such as Harvard. After all how many racist pricks do you see coming out of Ivy Leagues that don’t recognize or have an ounce of street smarts? They don’t know anything but to be machines of privilege ready to be CEO or whatever that undercuts and makes this world more horrible for the working class.
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Kiwi doesn’t speak for all Asians btw. Dude admitted that he had a white in law that abused and mistreated his family and he couldn’t do anything about it. For me I would have set a trap and torchered the prick before killing him..
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Solitare said,
“Personally I’ve always felt the larger problem is the unequal distribution of funds to different school districts and systems.” Agreed.
“I know this raises questions of local control and local funding through the local tax base.”
Poorer counties have smaller tax bases so schools are underfunded.
“However, it seems to me that we may have reached a point where school funds should be distributed equitably by either the state governments or the federal government.”
Rich counties don’t need federal funding. Funding from the fed should be targeted.
“I know you are opposed to too much control by a large central government, but right now the local control of schools is resulting in an inequitable educational system along both racial and class lines.”
I am skeptical of central planning and bureaucratic oversight. The problem is not the “locale control of schools” but rather schools that score on the bottom receive the least amount of federal funds because that money gets directed at the top of the school hierarchy and by the time it gets filtered through the system not much reaches the bottom. It’s trikle down funding.
“I’m not sure how else to fix it, at least in the short-term, except by increased federal oversight and intervention”.
“Increased federal oversight and intervention” are always the solutions offered for a whole list of societal ills. I’m the skeptic, I’m sorry. I have no faith in the Federal government doing anything effectively or efficiently other then bombing people, places and things.
If I had a magic wand this is what I would do.
Schools that are currently graduating educated kids I’d leave alone and wouldn’t touch. If it’s working you don’t want the feds to come in and to tinker with it based upon some mandate to “fix everything”.
Federal funding should be targeted directly to those school districts that are not producing educated kids capable of attending college. The funding should be no strings attached, no quotas, no benefits based on in school testing.
Teachers should be tested to ensure that they can actually communicate their knowledge to students. If they fail at that fire them and replace with teachers who can. Teachers in poor challenging schools could have their income supplemented by the federal government to keep them their in the school districts. That way effective teachers don’t get rotated out.
After school tutoring would be available for any student who falls behind.
Regional competitions where students are tested against other school districts would help show what teaching methods work and which ones don’t. Teachers who classes perform at the top get compensated which acts as an incentive.
Local control would mean those districts could have a say in what kind of educational courses they could and would offer. So for example a mostly Black school could have a curriculum that is Black centric in regards to history ect. This idea that all Americans should receive the “same education” and by that I mean a white nationalistic one needs to be shelved. Why should Black high school graduates have to take a course in African American studies in college when this should be taught from Kindergarten up. This kind of Kindergarten up education instills upon those students a true identify not a white washed one.
If this was consistent you could raise college entrance levels for both Blacks and Hispanics to the same level of whites and Asians within 12 years.
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@ Kiwi
The second article says the lawsuit against Harvard was dismissed because there was a similar federal case pending. Do you by chance know what happened or is happening with that federal case?
“I see this as largely the outcome of White liberalism, which has a dominant presence at America’s top universities.”
As someone who has an inside view, I would caution you not to discount the conservative influence on many universities. The governing boards (Curators, Regents, Trustees, etc.) are often heavily stacked with rich conservative Republicans. Public universities can be forced by conservative governors and conservative state legislatures to take measures that are opposed by the majority of the faculty.
I don’t deny that there are many white liberals in academia who only pay lip service to the ideals of diversity, inclusion, multiculturalism, and equity. But conservatives still have far more power in academia than they like to let on. The narrative they spin of colleges filled with Marxists and Feminazis has served them well in the culture wars.
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@ Michael Jon Barker
“Federal funding should be targeted directly to those school districts that are not producing educated kids capable of attending college.”
Agreed. This is more what I had in mind but didn’t express adequately: that there should be a minimum standard of funding for schools and if the school district doesn’t have the tax base to meet that standard, the federal government should provide it. But that minimum standard needs to be very high. I would like to see the same money going into these low-performing schools that on average is spent in high-performing schools.
Actually, there may even need to be more money going to the low-performing schools. Things like the after-school tutoring you mentioned are going to cost money. Poor school districts also need things like free-breakfast programs to ensure the kids are physically able to pay attention in class and concentrate on learning. Smaller class sizes are essential as well.
“So for example a mostly Black school could have a curriculum that is Black centric in regards to history ect. This idea that all Americans should receive the “same education” and by that I mean a white nationalistic one needs to be shelved. Why should Black high school graduates have to take a course in African American studies in college when this should be taught from Kindergarten up. This kind of Kindergarten up education instills upon those students a true identify not a white washed one.”
I don’t see why there shouldn’t be a true multicultural education taught across the board. Why shouldn’t white kids in predominately white school districts also learn black history from kindergarten up? And not just in February, but fully integrated into the curriculum.
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Solitare said,
“As someone who has an inside view, I would caution you not to discount the conservative influence on many universities.”
The Koch Brothers have dedicated over 200 million dollars to universities primarily to economics and science.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/08/01/i-dont-like-the-idea-of-capitalism-charles-koch-unfiltered/
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@ Michael Jon Barker
Thanks, that’s another area of influence I forgot. Deep-pocketed donors can definitely throw their weight around in policy matters.
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Solitare said,
“I don’t see why there shouldn’t be a true multicultural education taught across the board. Why shouldn’t white kids in predominately white school districts also learn black history from kindergarten up? And not just in February, but fully integrated into the curriculum.”
White supremacy destroys the identity of non whites. A white washed identity brainwashes non whites and in part creates internalized racism, low self esteem ect. Blacks, Hispanics ect self identity strengthens character and rebuilds a culture that has been decimated by white supremacy.
“A true multicultural education” still means whites are the default within that spectrum.
This is where I disagree with liberals who talk about the strength of diversity in the sense that “We’re all the same”. Its meant to mean diversity within the context of white supremacy.
Black history within a white view of Multiculturalism would be a white washed view of history.
Imagine Gro jo writing a curriculum on Black history. You think they would teach that in white schools ? lol
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@ Michael Jon Barker
“A true multicultural education” still means whites are the default within that spectrum.
No, it doesn’t. Nor does it posit that “we are all the same.” Nor should it be written, designed, and developed by whites.
But we are light years away from any chance of getting that into the K-12 school system, so it probably isn’t worth discussing anyway.
Fine with me if local schools that are predominately black or Hispanic want to focus on an Afrocentric or Hispanic-centric curriculum. But it’s not ok with me that white kids in predominately white schools continue to be taught a white-centric curriculum. That just cements white supremacy into their minds.
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@ Michael Jon Barker
“within a white view of Multiculturalism”
Please do not assume this is my starting point or what I am talking about. My view of multiculturalism comes from critical race theory and critical tribal theory, and the works of POC scholars within those fields.
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@ Kiwi
Thanks for sharing that information and link. It gives me a starting point for learning.
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@Solitaire
YES!
Black, Asian, native, latino, muslim, etc. history is relevant to all students.
Only thing I would add is that it should have some US focus and local focus as well as focus on the students in the classroom, eg,
– cultures which are not principal factors in US history (eg, the history of rock paintings of Australian Aborigines) should be included in world history, but maybe not an absolute must in the study of US history. They would be an absolute must in Australian history
– All US students should learn about the history of Native Americans in general (including pre-European contact), but some focus needs to highlighted on the Native Americans that used to occupy the land on which the school is located.
– Oregon, most of the school districts of which are hyperwhite, still need to learn about the history of Asians, blacks, latinos, Natives in their state (or more specifically, why they are not there or no longer there and the social /cultural history of the ones who should be there, but are not.)
– the historical background and experience of one’s own family in the USA also must be included. That is what causes a lot of disconnect (eg, to the founding fathers), as well as accommodating a multicultural, multiethnic, mutiracial, identity.
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Maybe I’m misnterpreting the definition of multiculturalism. I wish you no offense Solitare.
“Multiculturalism describes the existence, acceptance, and/or promotion of multiple cultural traditions within a single jurisdiction, usually considered in terms of the culture associated with an aboriginal ethnic group and foreigner ethnic groups”
“A singular jurisdiction” to me means white default and that is the standard all other cultures are judged by. I don’t see how a sense of neutrality can be achieved within that context.
“The most powerful weapon in the hands of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed.”
Steve Biko
This is why black centrisim needs to be taught from Kindergarten through high school for Blacks students. Otherwise a white washed sense of self fills the mind for the benifit of the oppressor.
“Double consciousness is knowing the particularity of the white world in the face of its enforced claim to universality. Double consciousness is knowing the history offered up to black people—its many interpretations and echoes of white superiority and black inferiority, of white heroism and black cowardice, and even the temporal and geographical location of history’s beginning as a step off of the African continent—is a falsehood that blacks are forced to treat as truth in so many countless ways. Double consciousness, in other words, is knowing a lie while living its contradiction.”. Bilko
To me this is what multiculturalism should be. It contrasts the system as it is with the truth of who you are and the meaning behind your identity.
Coexistence is about mutual respect. But that can’t exist in a world where the singular jurisdiction is white supremacy and that culture is all invading and self replicating.
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@ TeddyBearDaddy
If you are open to sharing them, I’m very interested in hearing more of your opinions on which Asian American issues you feel are important.
If I remember correctly, you’re of Cambodian descent and your girlfriend is Hmong, two of the AAPI groups that are most likely to be struggling economically in the U.S., that rarely get included in the mainstream picture of Asian Americans, and whose voices are not often included in these discussions. So I really value a chance to hear things from your perspective.
What are the primary issues you see facing your own community?
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@ Michael Jon Barker
So what do you propose we do about white children in predominantly white or all-white school districts? Are they to continue to be exempt from learning about the real history of this nation and from learning in depth the history of African Americans, Native Americans, Asian Americans, Latinos, Jews, Muslims, etc.?
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@ Michael Jon Barker
What you are refering to is called “the hidden curriculum” in educational theory.
http://edglossary.org/hidden-curriculum/
Multiculturalists are well aware of the hidden curriculum of white hegemony and realize that it needs to be dismantled and replaced in order to achieve a pedagogy of equity. They are still working out how best to do this.
I have been trying to pull up some articles and so far have not succeeded. The fundamental work is a book called The Pedagogy of the Oppressed by Paulo Freire.
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@MJB,
I see the white Anglo-American culture as one among many. It is no less “foreign” than the others. It would be a disservice (perhaps even morally wrong) to teach that as a “default” in a multi-cultural context.
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Where’s gro jo?
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@ Kiwi
Don’t get too discouraged yet. This isn’t over. The Fisher v. UTX decision is very recent, and it’s too soon to tell how it will be implemented at the university level. Nor does it necessarily rule out subsequent lawsuits concerning artificial barriers to Asian American enrollment.
I do agree this is a touchy subject between Asian Americans and other POC groups because of the difference in lived experiences, where many (although not all) AAPI groups are overrepresented in college admissions and enrollment, whereas the other groups are often underrepresented. There’s no doubt in my mind that both of these experiences are caused by racist admissions policies devised by whites.
Not to disparage your efforts or your experiences, but can I suggest that perhaps just asking people on campus to sign a petition is not enough to create common ground? This is the kind of situation where Asian American interests should and can be allied with those of Hispanics, Native Americans, and African Americans, but it means making extra efforts, like holding workshops or seminars on affirmative action issues, or reaching out to other POC student groups on campus to present your concerns about SCA5 and to clarify that you don’t oppose affirmative action in respect of underrepresented groups, to explain that — as we discussed above — you see this as a competition between yourselves and the white students, not as taking away affirmative action slots from the other POC groups. This is the type of issue where it takes real effort, concentrated effort, at coalition building to achieve worthwhile results.
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UCI system in California 2014
African Americans, 4 percent in the UC system, 7 percent in the state.
Latinos, 28 percent at UC, 38 percent in the state.
Whites, 24 percent at UC, 39 percent in the state.
American Indians, 1 percent at UC, 2 percent in the state.
Asian Americans, 40 percent at UC, 14 percent in the state.
What’s interesting about these numbers is they show Latinos slightly out performing whites.
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*UC system
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>Lowering the admissions standards for Asian Americans to match the standards for white students does not have to mean the end of affirmative action in admissions for underrepresented groups. The competition should be between white students and Asian American students, and any resultant drop in demographics should be among white students, not blacks, Native Americans, or non-white Hispanics.
Yeah, I think a lot of the rift between Asian and other POC is because Asians tend to be the ones affected by AA rather than whites since, at the end of the day, most of these schools want to stay plurality white at least and don’t want to be “Too Asian”, so Asians get the shaft. But they won’t come out and say it.
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If I’m understanding these UC numbers correctly lowering the Asain American scores to whites students would probably take away from both Latino and white students. If Asian enrolment increased from where ot is now (40%) to 45% that would lower Latino enrollment to below 25% and whites to 22% percent. I don’t think it would affect Black enrollment.
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Why is Kiwi even come to this blog, considering how he feels about black people? It makes no sense.
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@ Kiwi
I understand what you mean. It is the type of thing that makes one frustrated, angry, and bitter. But it’s difficult to get anywhere positive by leading with those emotions. Communicating and educating may move slowly but will have better long-term results.
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@solitaire
We have been weighting years for guest posts. That might help, at least on this blog.
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@ Jefe
To go back to an earlier subtopic on this thread, I think this is one area where teaching a multicultural history of the U.S. in the schools would be so beneficial. I believe you have expressed that thought a number of times on this blog. I agree that a lot of the disconnect between various marginalized groups comes from seeing each other through a white lens. It is one way white supremacy remains dominant.
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@Solitaire
Yes, you have expressed in one short sentence one of the biggest frustrations I encounter on this blog and often in other aspects of life in general.
People who do not identify with the white Anglo-American mainstream learn about the other marginalized groups through the lens created by that mainstream. On the specific point raised that even Abagond may adopt the white liberal take on things has resonated with me from time to time, especially with the posts and comments that were put up before I started following this blog (but it still happens often enough since then, especially from the commenters).
Yet, I am still at a loss about what to do about it.
I am thinking that, if I ever decided that I needed to return to the USA (and that thought has entered my mind a lot in the past couple years), I would have to work on the teaching of that history and culture and society of the USA. It is something I want to do in any case.
But then again, when you say
the question becomes, beneficial to whom. Why would the white Liberal mainstream (not to mention white conservatives) find that beneficial to THEM?
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@solitaire
I agree that communicating and educating helps and that often a white lens is used when viewing other marginalized groups, but following by example also goes a long way.
In my recent lifespan development course we touched on how different groups learn and how much rubs off on them from the dominate culture of the US. Certain behaviors and attitudes towards groups are in turn the result of what they learn (not simply in classrooms) from whites. With Asians, compared to other groups, they display a support or acceptance of the ideas that whites have of them. Whites tease them and they do not respond. So blacks tease them under the idea that they do not care or it is true and will not respond. Hispanics will then tease them under the idea that they do not care and will not respond. White actions create a trickle effect to other groups, but this is confirmed when Asians simple do nothing. It makes the actions okay to other groups.
Native Americans, blacks, and Hispanics are all groups who respond by vocally fighting back and making certain actions not okay and while the dominate group will still try to push there stereotypes and ideas they and other groups know what is not okay and are more open to learning and understanding. The issue with Asians is a bit more complex because you have Asians themselves supporting many of the ideas of them. Even if they don’t believe it they don’t fight it. When an Asian goes through an injustice, it is hard to get others (including Asians) to see how the injustice and stereotypes affect them enough to act.
I belong to a private group of Natives, blacks, Hispanics, and Asians. We collective speak on issues including those of misogynistic nature. We call out all injustices and speak on how certain issues are problematic regarding different groups. Recently we have been responding to the Pho incident where a white magazine was trying to educate Asians on how to eat it. While we all educate each other, I don’t think any of it would be as effective if there were not Asians on there actively fighting against it. Leading by example goes a long way. Talk is cheap and if all you have is talking points about how bad it is and not action showing you are really willing to fight for it then no one is going to take you seriously.
This all over the place and please feel free to ask if anything is jumbled.
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@ Sharina
“Whites tease them and they do not respond. So blacks tease them under the idea that they do not care or it is true and will not respond. Hispanics will then tease them under the idea that they do not care and will not respond.”
You do realize this is cultural? It’s similar to Asians saying “yes” when they mean “maybe” or “no”. In many Asian cultures when someone is teasing you or even berating you, you’re supposed to sit there silent with a smile glued on your face, especially if that person is in a position of superiority or authority, or if you’re in a situation where you feel outnumbered or unsafe. In Asian culture it does not necessarily signify agreement, nor does it necessarily mean that the person is not upset over what is being said.
I don’t want to generalize it too much because Jefe will probably say how this isn’t true in all cases, and that is true. But it is a part of most Asian cultures, some to a larger degree than others, and it does get passed from generation to generation even in the U.S. It is tied among other things to Confucian ethics and the idea of face. In the U.S. we say “The squeaky wheel gets greased” but in Japan the saying is “The nail that sticks out gets hammered down.”
I’ve seen this in my own spouse. When it comes to discrimination against his students or his colleagues, he will fight to the teeth for them. He’s almost been fired three times for this, once over LGBT domestic partnersip issues, once a multi-racial effort against Prop 209, once supporting Asian American students who were on a hunger strike for an Asian American Studies program.
But when it comes to things that affect him alone, he’ll sit there and take it in silence. That doesn’t mean he agrees, it doesn’t mean that he’s not boiling inside. It means that due to how he was raised, he has immense difficulty in voicing opposition to a superior when it comes to himself personally. He knows that’s not how it works here; we’ve discussed it many times. But he can’t bring himself to do it anymore than he can look his superiors straight in the eye (he compromises by looking at their nose; they never notice the difference).
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^ Sharinair
Are most of those Asians in that group immigrants?
For persons who hold a frame of reference that is outside of the white Anglo mainstream (by outside, I mean not so impacted by it), they might have a tendency to view the system of white Anglo dominance (which even may include stuff like how white people view them) as as something that needs to be navigated instead of something that needs to be resisted or changed. They are marginalized, but accept the system as they see it, and try their best to navigate around it.
This can help explain why, for example, we see many Asian immigrants opening up stores in neighborhoods with few whites or Asians (ie, seeing it as a system to navigate around rather than a system that needs to be changed – they can simply organize themselves outside of the system). It also explains why Asian immigrants during Jim Crow did not try to dismantle the system, but tried to extract more benefits from the system which they felt they were powerless to do anything about. It explains why many might accept the bamboo ceiling problem instead of trying to fight it. It also explains why some don’t see a major problem with the perpetual foreigner stereotype, even though it impacts them negatively.
And actually, not responding is a form of responding. It may mean that they have taken the attitude to worry about what they really want rather than about what white people (and that could include blacks and Latinos who have assumed similar attitudes about them as whites have) think about them. Immigrants may have grown up in environments where vocal response and fighting back only lead them into more trouble.
It is wrong however, to assume that Asian Americans don’t fight for their civil rights or other kinds of recognition. We have a full timeline of active resistance by Asians in the USA ever since the 1860s. But, many Asian Americans who have come to the USA only after the 1960s might not be very aware of it.
As the generations progress in the USA, 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation Asian Americans may change their frames of reference to include participation in (or resistance to) the mainstream systems.
For example, a recent immigrant might not be so bothered about how Asians are depicted in Hollywood, or about how Asian characters get whitewashed. But one who was born and grew up in the USA might be very concerned about this. A recent immigrant may feel no stigma about operating stores in a poor POC neighborhoods, but their grandchildren may want nothing to do with it.
Another problem is the disparate narrative that different Asian Americans have. Despite the hundreds of different Native American groups in the USA, there are some common narratives and political interests that they can share (eg, broken treaties, genocide, federal recognition, etc.). And it makes sense for Black Americans to discuss the legacy of slavery, of Jim Crow, or the issue of reparations, as it is a large encompassing narrative. That does not exist in the segment of the US population called “Asian”.
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@ Sharina
I agree with your larger point about leading by example and being actively involved. For the last few months, I’ve been trying to encourage Kiwi to direct more effort towards exactly that.
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@Solitaire,
I agree with this.
Not responding is a way of navigating or diffusing the situation. And it is more common in various Asian cultures, where confrontation is devalued. Added to this would be the situation in certain Asian regimes, where active resistance could actually land you into serious trouble.
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@Solitaire
“You do realize this is cultural?”—I realize it is cultural thing, but it is hard to look at an issue as an issue if the person affected by it does not see it as enough of an issue to act. This sums up why many groups don’t see the urgency in Asian issues. They don’t. Sure they have a right to respond as they see fit, but I would ask….why be upset when other groups don’t respond with the urgency that you don’t? Why be confused when other groups respond the way you do?
I am well aware it is not all Asians. I can go on a list of how Filipinos do not fit into that category, but they are in general Asians do not respond to their own issues.
“In Asian culture it does not necessarily signify agreement, nor does it necessarily mean that the person is not upset over what is being said.”—Which is why I stated here ” Even if they don’t believe it they don’t fight it.”
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“For the last few months, I’ve been trying to encourage Kiwi to direct more effort towards exactly that.”—And I fully support and agree with you directing him towards that because being active in what you believe in sets a precedence for what you accept and what is acceptable.
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@jefe
“Are most of those Asians in that group immigrants?”—-A few are, but the majority are Asian American.
I agree with what you are saying fully.
“It is wrong however, to assume that Asian Americans don’t fight for their civil rights or other kinds of recognition.”—I am aware of how they responded historically, but I am looking at what affects them today and how they are not responding to those things in this century. For example, when it was mention about STEM and harassment of Asians in the program. That is an issue that faces Asians now that should be addressed. Awareness and Action need to be made. Yet the action will likely be individual family addressing the issue instead of any real collective effort.
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@ Sharina
“Sure they have a right to respond as they see fit, but I would ask….why be upset when other groups don’t respond with the urgency that you don’t? Why be confused when other groups respond the way you do?”
I think I need some clarification on this statement. Are the Asians you see who don’t respond to teasing the very same Asians who get upset or confused by the response of other groups? Could you provide an example as an illustration?
“I realize it is cultural thing, but it is hard to look at an issue as an issue if the person affected by it does not see it as enough of an issue to act. This sums up why many groups don’t see the urgency in Asian issues.”
But at the same time, many Americans don’t see when Asian Americans are acting on issues, or when those AAPI efforts are pointed out, they’re dismissed or devalued. That’s happened here over and over again. Abagond writes posts about historical efforts by Asian Americans to overcome discrimination, but the comments section gets filled up with how that’s just one incident and it doesn’t count and Asians aren’t involved and never have been involved in civil rights struggles. Jefe provides long lists of historical and recent Asian American issues, protests, civil rights lawsuits, etc., and again the response typically is to say it isn’t enough and it doesn’t count.
“I can go on a list of how Filipinos do not fit into that category”
My spouse is Filipino, as I have stated before, so I’m going to have to disagree with that one. It’s true that Filipinos have been somewhat more likely to protest, but they do have this same cultural trait. The immigrant generation in particular often cautions the younger ones not to make waves, to be mindful they are “just guests” in America, to smile and nod even if they disagree with what the white person is saying.
By the way, this is a huge issue among Native Americans as well. You may not be seeing it where you live and the Natives you know, but many tribes have a similar disagreement going on about whether it’s better to protest or just keep their heads down so they won’t provoke the white man into killing the rest of them off. Many tribes also have the thing about never looking your elders in the eyes or face as a sign of respect, which gets minsinterpreted by mainstream Americans.
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@ Sharina
“I am looking at what affects them today and how they are not responding to those things in this century. For example, when it was mention about STEM and harassment of Asians in the program. That is an issue that faces Asians now that should be addressed. Awareness and Action need to be made. Yet the action will likely be individual family addressing the issue instead of any real collective effort.”
What facts are you basing that on? This is exactly the type of issue my spouse deals with as part of his job. There are organizations of Asian Americans in the STEM professions who are working on this as well. Just because they’re not protesting in the streets doesn’t mean they aren’t taking it to the courtrooms.
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@Solitaire
” I think I need some clarification on this statement.”—In those questions I am simply stating, if you are not acting for your causes then why be mad when other groups don’t act. Kiwi is a prime example of this.
“Abagond writes posts about historical efforts by Asian Americans to overcome discrimination, but the comments section gets filled up with how that’s just one incident and it doesn’t count and Asians aren’t involved and never have been involved in civil rights struggles.”—I see plenty of people acknowledge it, but historical accounts have little to do with what many people see going on today. When commenters bring up recent issues, the response is often “in 1960’s Asians…” Okay we have active Asians of the past, but today Asians are still less active about very strong issues. Even other Asians on these threads acknowledge it, but it gets dismissed even when they are pointing it out. We should not claim more activism from Asians than there really is and most people see this with their own eyes.
“My spouse is Filipino, as I have stated before, so I’m going to have to disagree with that one.”—You may disagree, but of the Filipinos that have been in my life that statement stands true.
“What facts are you basing that on?”—I’m basing it on the fact that there is no collective effort and I am not simply referring to street protest. Sure your husband is doing something, but do show Where this is going on outside of the scope of your husband? What are the name of the organized Asian groups working on this? What is the involvement count?
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@ Sharina
“In those questions I am simply stating, if you are not acting for your causes then why be mad when other groups don’t act. Kiwi is a prime example of this.”
I agree with your statement in general, but I don’t know that it is fair to apply it to an entire racial group. Does no one in any other racial group act like this? Willing to complain but not willing to put in the effort?
“You may disagree, but of the Filipinos that have been in my life that statement stands true.”
We may have to agree to disagree. I will say that while I was using my spouse as an example, I have seen this behavior many times in many people. But it was something I had to learn to see over the course of years; I didn’t see it at all originally. Do you know the Filipinos in your life well enough to tell the difference between a “yes” that means “maybe” and a “yes” that means “no”? Do you know the culture well enough to pick up on the subtle facial and body language clues that mean they disagree with you even when they don’t say anything? Do you know the difference between the “yes” that means “I agree with you” and the “yes” that means “I hear and understand what you’re saying but I’m reserving judgment” and the “yes” that means “you’re full of sh*t”?
“What are the name of the organized Asian groups working on this? What is the involvement count?”
I started to answer this, but then I realized that it would just equate to more defending and justifying on a nitpicking level. When will it be enough? What does the number count have to be before it’s deemed worthy? Why do the Asian Americans who are involved have to be constantly defending the worth of their issues? It’s almost like respectability politics — until all the Asian Americans act exactly as they’re supposed to, we don’t have to take their concerns seriously.
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@ Sharina
Full diclosure: Off the top of my head, I can only remember the name of two groups actively working on the issue in question, although I know there are more. I don’t know of any who have the STEM harrassment as their sole issue or concern, but there are groups for whom it is one of many issues of concern.
I know people I could ask who would have that information readily available (names of groups, anyway; I don’t know if they’d have the involvement numbers you asked for), but I’d have to e-mail or call them. This includes my spouse, who is currently out of town at a conference.
I started to do this, to bother these people on a weekend and to bother my spouse at a busy conference, and then I thought, “why?” Upthread I provided information on several large Asian American organizations. For a couple of the coalitions, I gave names or links to names of the groups that make up the coalitions. The information I quoted about the amicus brief stated that it represented over 160 AAPI organizations.
And yet in the same thread you state that Asian American activism is invisible to you — not in those exact words, but pretty much the meaning.
I’m tired. I’m not going to bother those people. I’m not going to wrack my brains. I’ve already done that upthread and it didn’t count for anything.
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@Solitaire
“I agree with your statement in general, but I don’t know that it is fair to apply it to an entire racial group.”—It isn’t being applied to an entire racial group. When I say Asians I most certainly am not talking about all of them. Just as when white is used in here it does not apply to all.
“Does no one in any other racial group act like this? Willing to complain but not willing to put in the effort?”—I am sure it does, but deflecting to what other groups do to bypass what Asians do does not resolve the issue.
” Do you know the Filipinos in your life well enough to tell the difference between a “yes” that means “maybe” and a “yes” that means “no”? Do you know the culture well enough to pick up on the subtle facial and body language clues that mean they disagree with you even when they don’t say anything? Do you know the difference between the “yes” that means “I agree with you” and the “yes” that means “I hear and understand what you’re saying but I’m reserving judgment” and the “yes” that means “you’re full of sh*t”?”—The Filipinos in my life are basically family. I have known them since I was a child because they became close with my mother. I later met a Filipino friend of my own through church and we have been like family since meeting. I have shared my experience on the blog with my own friend several times, so it is not a passing relationship.
“When will it be enough?”—It is not a matter of more or less. You make it more or less when an issue is pointed out and I often feel it is in effort to deflect from the reality that not much effort is being put where it needs to.
“It’s almost like respectability politics — until all the Asian Americans act exactly as they’re supposed to, we don’t have to take their concerns seriously.”—Wrong.The simple point in all this is you can’t expect other groups to come in and do your movements for you when you are not doing your movements. Blacks, Hispanics, and Natives fight there movements hell or high water. Native coverage of their movements is just as small as Asians, but people know. Do you ever wonder why people know of the Native struggle, but the Asian one is so cloaked? It is not just media lack of coverage, but Asian lack of coverage. Prime example is the pho incident I mentioned. The Asians I know made it an issue. As a result of making it a public issue on social media, it made other groups aware and it made other groups speak out with them. But siting around saying “this bothers me other groups should care” is not going to get the job done no matter what group does it.
Speak up, organize. make it count.
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@ Sharina
“The simple point in all this is you can’t expect other groups to come in and do your movements for you when you are not doing your movements.”
From where are you getting the idea that this is what Asian Americans are doing?
“Blacks, Hispanics, and Natives fight there movements hell or high water.”
I have heard the exact same complaints about Hispanics and Natives that you voiced above about Asians.
“Native coverage of their movements is just as small as Asians, but people know. Do you ever wonder why people know of the Native struggle, but the Asian one is so cloaked?”
Except that they don’t. Most non-Natives know very little about Native issues or the Native American struggles. They don’t understand sovereignty, they don’t understand how that applies to the casinos and to reservation land, reporters don’t understand they have no free press rights on reservations, they don’t understand treaty issues or land rights or tribal police jurisdictions or BIA issues or tribal schools or anything. It’s great that you do, but most Americans have no conception. Many think since the rise of the casinos all Natives are rich and they’re mad that the casinos are exempt from state taxes.
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@ Sharina
“It is not a matter of more or less. You make it more or less when an issue is pointed out and I often feel it is in effort to deflect from the reality that not much effort is being put where it needs to.”
With all due respect, you were the one who asked me to provide an involvement count.
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@Solitaire
“From where are you getting the idea that this is what Asian Americans are doing?”—I get this idea every single time I hear Asians say “blacks are not interested in our movements or blacks don’t care about our movements” while at the same time they are not engaging in the movements either.
“I have heard the exact same complaints about Hispanics and Natives that you voiced above about Asians.”–I’m sure, but I am only speaking on what I have seen. Online and off.
“Except that they don’t. Most non-Natives know very little about Native issues or the Native American struggles.”—I beg to differ. Before I joined my group most of the information on natives was coming from people who lived around them. People know, but I can’t say they care. Which is a problem within itself.
“With all due respect, you were the one who asked me to provide an involvement count.”—That I did, but I also thought when you said “When will it be enough” you were talking about enough to make it worthy. As to the involvement count, you can’t claim a collective effort is being made when only 5 people find it an issue enough to do something about it.
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@Solitaire
“And yet in the same thread you state that Asian American activism is invisible to you — not in those exact words, but pretty much the meaning.”—That is because I don’t need the name of organizations. I am talking about active movement for causes. NAACP is a black organization, but I questions how many active causes they have been in and I am black.
I acknowledge organizations exist, but I need to know there activity in causes like what Женщина and even Kiwi mention on a collective front. I can create an organization right now and not even engage in any type of movements for betterment of my people.
Another thing is I never read upthread to know what you put, so excuse me for not following along with every single comment or thoroughly reading them all.
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@ Sharina
Look, if this is primarily about Kiwi, I agree that he needs to get more actively involved. He may already be involved to a degree — he did take part in a petition drive — but I think it would be very good for him right now to get his head out of the echo chamber that the blogosphere can become and center himself more in real-life action. I think it would be good for him to join up with the Asian American students who are already active in causes, meet and learn from older activists, talk to the Asian American professors on campus — especially those in the Asian American Studies department — about their perspectives on both the history and current issues, etc.
Have you brought up this topic of lack of involvement with the Asian Americans in your private group?
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@Solitaire
It isn’t primarily about Kiwi. He really is an example of what has been seen elsewhere. Not his behavior but the concerns he brings up. I don’t agree with him on a lot of things lately, but I have seen others say much of what he says while on the same token not active in their movements. So please do not attempt to dismiss what I said as being about Kiwi. It is legitimate information from outside this blog.
“Have you brought up this topic of lack of involvement with the Asian Americans in your private group?”—In my private group no, but on other Asian social media pages (LLAG) yes, but only after seeing other Asians bring it up first.
I have made my point so I see no need to continue, it really needs to be said that there are many reasons why other groups don’t participate in Asian issues and what I said it just one. Others are along the lines of a lack of trust. I can only urge you and others to go to black sites outside of Abagond and ask them why.
We can simply agree to disagree.
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@ Sharina
“So please do not attempt to dismiss what I said as being about Kiwi.”
It wasn’t an attempt to dismiss what you said. When you brought up Kiwi and Женщина as examples, it made me wonder if maybe that was what was going on (or at least a big part of it), but now you’ve made it very clear that it isn’t.
If you do ever bring this up with the group you belong to, I hope you will share their responses because I would be interested in knowing their perspectives.
I know a lot of Asian Americans who are active and involved and who don’t waste time complaining about other groups’ lack of interest in their issues, so perhaps that skews my perspective. I’m sure there are plenty of Asian Americans who are the exact opposite and I believe you when you say that you see this on social media, etc. But I don’t know that either of us is getting the full picture. Perhaps it is actually a combination of what you’re seeing in your life and what I’m seeing in mine. I don’t know and I’m not sure how anyone would go about quantifying that.
I agree to disagree.
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But one huge cultural issue with many immigrant Asians and Asian Americans and asserting their rights or themselves, is that instead of uniting in collective action to demand recognition, we tend to be busy eating each other. For example, competitive status-focused immigrant parents constantly trying to one-up the other kids achievements with their kid and endless eating at each other instead of coming together to fight for a common cause. I think things will slowly change, and there are glimpses of it even now, but stereotypically for example, instead of getting middle class or affluent immigrants parents fighting together against Asian quotas, you just got them eating each other for their kid to get the increasingly competitive Asian spots in white man’s ivy league. For example, Bob’s kid is good at piano and got 4.xx GPA? My Sally will be even better at piano and get better than that! (Never mind Sally maybe preferring drums or whatever) Essentially, I think keeping-up-with-the-joneses culture is something that middle to affluent class Asian-Americans need to address.
Even in China, whatever is said about racism or whatever, a lot of the hate in China is Chinese hating on each other. Regionalism, urban vs rural, etc. Though perhaps that is not unique to them.
In terms of surviving in the USA, I think things Asian parents can adopt is more acceptance of assertiveness and confrontation, as well as more emphasis on inherent intellectualism, questioning, etc, rather than education as a means of status.
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I’m not sure stereotypical tiger parenting is necessarily good, especially for sons. I feel many tiger parents unintentionally emasculate their sons in an American context the way they raise them. It’s also known that Asian America kids struggle with self esteem, self worth, confidence, self hate, despite their educational stats. This is especially poisonous for boys in the American social scene, because American masculinity is in many ways the literal opposite of the way many Asian parents choose to bring up their sons.
That not to put “white” parenting on a pedastal at all. Plenty of issues there as well. And one can say that the helicopter mom, soccer mom, and other obsessions (including sport) are status and keeping-up-with-the-joneses obsessed as well, in a different way.
Anglo US culture is extremely cutthroat and status obsessed too, but in a way that doesn’t “match” what a lot of immigrant parents think, making is so that immigrant parents unintentionally hold their kids back in many ways. For example asian habit of humility and letting your work speak for itself instead becomes “keeping your head down = weak and unassertive = glass ceiling.” And the emphasis on school over sport becomes “weak and effeminate nerd” which is especially toxic for men. Stoic ness and not being overly loud friendly and jolly becomes “cold and robotic”
US culture is also extremely style over substance based…
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@ Sharina
I apologize if I came across as more terse, impatient, or combative than usual. I’m not feeling well today, and I know sometimes that bleeds over into my communication.
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@Solitaire
No problem. I have my days as well so I can’t blame anyone for when they have theirs. Hope you feel better soon. 🙂
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I still think that there is a lack of a common or mainstream narrative that can link Asian Americans together. It is difficult to identify specific issues for disparate groups to rally around.
The Chinese immigrants who came during the Railroad era and Exclusion era shared a lot of common experience and social origin. Over 90% spoke mutually intelligible dialects. They formed institutions around that and most of them identified with their social causes. Likewise, the Japanese who came between 1880s-1920s shared similar social origins, as well as later on with the WWII internment.
I found that the biggest disconnect in Japanese Americans was between those from the mainland USA and those from Hawaii.
But, in the post 1960s USA, there is a huge disconnect between and within ethnic groups, that they have difficult to find common ground, or even feel hostile towards the intra-ethnic subgroups.
In the late 1960s, a common social origin (both linguistic/cultural, as well as the experience in the USA itself) was shared among about 90% of Chinese Americans. Some attempt was made to find common ground with other Asian groups in the 1970s (eg, with respect to the Vietnam War) and into the early 80s (eg, the Vincent Chin case). By the late 1980s, that was gone.
We had many different groups with vastly different social origins and post-immigrant experiences in the USA. I could probably divide Chinese Americans along dozens of different lines, eg,
– pre-60s / post 60s experience.
– “Old School” from the Exclusion era (or even back to the railroad era) v. Brain Drain, v. wealthy parachute kids and their families, v. SE Asian refugees v. “black labor” migrants (resulting from human trafficking or smuggling)
– Origins tracing back to Taiwan, HK, China, SE Asia, or other countries (eg, Cuba)
– languages and dialects (instead of a set of mutually intelligible dialects understood by 90% of the population, in addition to English, as it was pre-1980s) – how is a 4th generation American whose great grandparents came from rural SW guangdong province over 100 years ago going to discuss their common “racial” experiences in US society with a Vietnamese born ethnic chinese refugee speaking a completely unrelated dialect and not as much English?) v. the wealthy parachute kids from Mainland China.
– generational disconnect (eg, 1st generation v. 5th generation)
Many of the institutions that have been set up since the early 1980s reflect a disparate disconnect in the narrative and experience and it is very difficult to find common ground. This has caused the narrative vacuum to be rewritten by the white mainstream and blacks and Latinos (and even some Asians towards other Asian groups) have taken their cue from this rewritten narrative. Until there is another major “Vincent Chin” moment, I don’t know how they will rally together around a common cause.
My ideal solution: take control and rewrite the narrative and make sure it gets into everyone’s basic education. We don’t have to wait for another Vincent Chin to start working on this, and when another event like that occurs, the revised narrative will take hold. At the very least, the “Yellow Peril” trope has been around for 160 years and is still here today. It would make sense for everyone to have a stake in controlling that particular narrative.
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re: Kiwi’s observation
I do think there is some validity to this point.
I might revise the last sentence slightly, since the Model Minority stereotype affects both Asians and blacks.
eg,
“They come from the Model Minority and Black Thug and the emasculated male / exoticized female Asian stereotypes.” These stereotypes are all a method of white male control.
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@ Kiwi
“Communicating and educating is a must, but getting people to break out of stereotyped thinking is a whole different challenge in itself.”
What other ways besides communicating and educating are effective in getting people to break out of stereotyped thinking?
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@Jefe
The Peter Liang protests did bring about a large amount, though admittedly not as much as Vincent Chin.
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@Kiwi
What exactly would constitute elements of a “a genuine Asian American counter-frame”?
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@ Kiwi
“People need to be confronted when they say something wrong or racist. Even if they do not admit to it or change, if no one speaks, people will accept falsehoods as unanimously true.”
I’ve always considered that type of confrontation to fall under education. It may be informal education and may sometimes get heated, but that’s still what it is.
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@Kiwi.. I do not what that is, I am not American.. Again, why do you come to this blog if you hate black people? Do you not how odd that is?
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@ Kiwi
Workshops and seminars and discussion panels and classes are part of education, but so is confronting an acquaintance who tells a racist joke, or a late-night impromptu talk with friends sharing experiences with racism, or arranging social get-togethers with diverse groups to meet on an informal basis, and many other things.
It can be a f*cking slow process. You sow seeds and some people get it right away, but sometimes you will never know if those seeds eventually took root. Or you may run into someone 15 years from now that you hadn’t seen since graduation and they may tell you that they finally figured out what you’d been trying to explain to them.
“I’m just baffled that the same people who are so vehemently against respectability politics (“People will listen to Blacks if they stop rioting”) do exactly the same thing to other races (“People will listen to Asians if they start protesting”). Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.”
This discussion has been reminding me of a former boss of my spouse’s. Not very long ago, either — within the last five years. This was a white guy who considered himself liberal and open-minded but displayed some really racist, sexist, and homophobic thinking (and of course would get angry when it was pointed out).
Whenever any of the student groups would hold meetings with this guy about their concerns and things they wanted to see implemented on campus, he would refuse to do anything for them. When my spouse asked him why, he would say, “Those students don’t want it badly enough. If they really wanted it, they would protest on the quad like my generation did in the ’60s.” But then whenever any students did any type of public demonstration, this guy would call up my spouse yelling, “Why can’t you control your students?!? Don’t they know that they need to go through the proper channels??” He wouldn’t listen to them regardless of the tactics they chose, but he always laid the blame for that on their most recent choice of tactic.
One thing I’ve noticed is most people on the outside only ever register the very public demonstrations. They don’t see all the hard work going on behind the scenes when activists try to take the proper channels. They don’t know it’s happening, it’s invisible, and therefore it doesn’t exist.
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@ Kiwi
I’ve read through your recent comments above on the different frames more than once, and I think I get most of what you’re saying.
One thing that confuses me, though, is what non-white people should do about how they see each other. If, for example, most Asian Americans see African Americans through the white racial frame(s) and vice versa, what is the corrective step? Should Asian Americans look at themselves and all others through the Asian racial frame, or should they look at themselves through the Asian racial frame, look at African Americans through the black racial frame, look at Native Americans through an indigenous racial frame, etc.?
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@sharinalr
I don’t think the Peter Liang incident compared in any respect to the scale or significance of the Vincent Chin incident.
In the latter incident, two men specifically chased an innocent man, bludgeoned him to death with intent and the perpetrators were not sentenced to jail and but to probation instead.
It helped to add fuel to the Pan-Asian American movement, which united many disparate groups in what is recognized as a resistance to Yellow Peril (but which was later partially quelled by the resurgence of Model Minority).
The Peter Liang case has at best, splintered Asian Americans into ever more disparate standpoints and divided them even more politically.
The enduring theme of white supremacy and racism towards Asians in the USA is Yellow Peril, which was a factor in the Vincent Chin slaying. That was not directly a factor in the Peter Liang incident (although I can see how it might be indirectly related).
I do have an opinion about what Peter Liang should be doing. Maybe I will post it in the Peter Liang thread.
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@Rabab
Can you point out anywhere on this blog where Kiwi demonstrates that he hates black people?
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@jefe
“I don’t think the Peter Liang incident compared in any respect to the scale or significance of the Vincent Chin incident.”—In numbers of support it did. If I remember correctly 20,000 marched for Vincent Chin (rightfully so), while 15,000 marched for Peter Liang (not so much so).
I was not speaking in regards to the details or manner of the cases. After all you did say “Until there is another major “Vincent Chin” moment, I don’t know how they will rally together around a common cause.” Which is why I responded as I did because there was major rally for Liang.
“Can you point out anywhere on this blog where Kiwi demonstrates that he hates black people?”—Not to speak for Rabab, but there are several situations on this blog where he is using black stereotypes to supposedly make a point (throwing blacks under the bus )and making false statements about blacks. That would indicate to some a level of dislike. Gro Jo probably could find those posts, but the Muhammad Ali one is a start. Unless the game is to make excuses for his behavior.
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@Kiwi.. Typical,,, you can never answer a question. This post is more about black people than it is about Asians. And I have not once expressed disdain for Asians have you have consistently done on this site.
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@ sharinalr..
Thanks you.. Jefe is trying to pretend he/she hasnt notice Kiwi’s disdain for black people.
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Do Black people really need allies? The more write Kiwi’s comments, the more it become apparent that black people do not need allies, particularly Asian Allies. Because of Kiwi, i have spent my day reading Asian blog, the general views of Asian Americans mirrors that of Kiwi’s. We Nubians never asked for Egyptian Arab ally, but we seem to be doing ok with it. The same thing can be said for Asians, do they need black allies?
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@Rabab
Not all Asian’s are like Kiwi and I have met some pretty great ones that really just get it. Kiwi does not speak for them all, even if he tries to come off as if he does. I have ran across those that do think like him and sometimes I do get thoughts such as yours.
One of my favorite blogger pointed out the hypocrisy within the Asian community. He got hate mail from whites, but he also got a bulk of them from other Asians who pushed his comments off as him not being “Asian enough”.
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@ Sharinalr..
You are right in asserting that Kiwi does not speak for all Asians. I did read several articles from Asians who seems to get it. But there are a lot of them that seems to express disdain toward BLM and black people in general. The thing that was really surprising was the almost God like praise for white people from these Asians in these blog. Reading their comments really broke my heart. I am not am African American, but reading those comments was really painful. But then I realise that why should we expect them to stand by us. The whole black people need other marginalised person support seems alien concept to me. Black people across the world have achieved a lot in this world without any support from other groups. Why do we need it now? I am sure other group have done so as well with support from black.
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Sorry for my terrible English by the way, English is not my language.. Thanks for responding
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Sorry for my terrible English by the way, English is not my language.. Thanks for responding
It is probably better than most native speakers.
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@Rabab
I will respond in full when I am at home, but your English is fine. I.muddle up things all the time so I would never judge you or anyone on that.
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@ Sharina
“One of my favorite blogger pointed out the hypocrisy within the Asian community.”
Could you link to this? I think reading it would help me to understand what you’ve been seeing.
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@Rabab
“Because of Kiwi, i have spent my day reading Asian blog, the general views of Asian Americans mirrors that of Kiwi’s.”
There are a lot of Northeast Asian Americans (Chinese, Korean, Japanese and Taiwanese) who hold views similar to Kiwi’s or more extreme. For example, one Chinese American blogger, big WOWO, expresses these opinions about Black Lives Matter:
http://www.bigwowo.com/2016/09/in-the-minds-of-those-on-the-left-and-right-extremes/
In the mind of this blogger and a certain portion of the NE Asian community, many Black people are synonymous with liberalism and the “Far Left”. According to this particular Asian American group, Black people are so fearful, illogical, irresponsible and filled with “racist hatred” that they are incapable of honesty and ethics.
So no, Rabab, this particular subset of Asian Americans are not interested in alliances with Black people anytime soon.
However….
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@Solitaire
I have posted a link on open thread last year.
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@ Rabab
There are other Northeast Asian Americans who see things differently. Aaron Mak is one of those people. In a recent article, Mak had this to say about Black Lives Matter:
Aaron Mak continues:
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/08/milwaukee-protests-asian-american-black-lives-matter-214184
So Rabab, Asian Americans are like all other human beings with a wide variety of opinions and ability to see the struggles of others. Some Asian Americans see Black people the same way Whites view Black people. Other Asian Americans are not only willing to see the struggles of Black people, they are also willing to join Black folk in our struggles. They are allies.
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Solitaire
Hopefully this links goes directly to the post. This is his most recent one, but there is more.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1119924774765667&id=100744900016998
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@ Sharina
Thanks!
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@Kiwi
“Sharina has at most made vague references to anti-Black statement on other threads without pulling up specific examples”— They aren’t vague. I don’t need to provide examples because almost everyone calling you out on it has seen them themselves. Leigh called you on it above because she saw it. Rabab is calling you on it because he/she saw it.
“while at the same time made a racist joke about Asians, which I can specifically quote.”—Then quote the joke. You keep claiming how racist it is yet has not done your typical quote and link. You don’t quote it because in doing so you will expose what you said that got the response to begin with. So perhaps you need to try harder with the lies.
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@Kiwi
There are quite a lot of examples, but I will got and link them all so you can dismiss them.
As to the link, let us full address what you said that brought that up shall we and oddly this will be one of your anti-black rants as an example.
Kiwi: “In America’s War on Terror, which has already been led by a Black man longer than it has been led by a White man, Black Americans have been the oppressors, not the victims of US imperialism.”
Me: As an “oppressor” I will go oppress me some Chinese food tomorrow. Perhaps it will protest in my stomach once consumed.
So racist right.
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@Kiwi
Wrong. That is what you assumed and ran with it. I brought up Chinese food because black people generally are big consumers of Chinese food. Which is about the only real oppression you will ever get from black people.
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@Kiwi
Wrong again. You never knew or asked what I meant by it but assumed and still do oddly enough. When it came up on another thread I was clear on what I meant and anyone can read it now and see clear as day the meaning behind it. Do’t be mad that your assumption ended up being wrong again. Here is a link to me explaining it days prior.
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@ Kiwi,,,
I hope this would be my last comment to you, I personally do not understand why some black people on this blog give you the time of the day to in what I interpret as a black space, as you are clearly liar and have a disdain for black people. The only reason you have not been able to answer my question about your presence here is because you have no answer. I think Stormfront and other far right sites is more suitable for someone like you, you can join in whites in expressing their disdain for black people, or maybe Big WOWO? Here I am sure you find whites and other Asians who share your anti blackness and fight for the Asian issues.
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@Kiwi
It’s okay if you believe you are right about me, because I know you will never admit to being wrong. But what you believe and what I know are two different things. Keep mind reading miss cleo, because only you see something there that is not.
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@Kiwi
No, you didn’t prove me wrong. You just kept claiming “no I don’t” until you stopped.
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@Kiwi
You assert ”all the posts you’ve left have at best been thinly veiled contempt for Asians and other races.”
Isnt this what is called projection? When someone subconsciously know that a particular trait applies to them, but tries to project it onto onto someone when that trait is made apparent to them. Nice try..
I have no contempt for members of other race, i just happen to think that black people support from other race of people is not our best interest, just as you think that Asian activist like this Aaron Mak who understand black struggles are wrong for Asians.
I asked one question, why do you frequent this blog, when your disdain for black people and Abagond is so apparent?
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@ Afrofem..
Thank you for your response, greatly appreciated. I understand that ”Asian Americans are like all other human beings with a wide variety of opinions and ability to see the struggles of others”.. And I am very sure that there a lot of Asians that understand the black struggle and fight along side with blacks against white supremacy and racism, and heavens bless them. But my question is that why should black people seek the support of other groups now, when we have been fighting our struggle without the support of other groups. We did it with slavery, apartheid, colonialism etc without their support. Surely we can do it without the support of others.
I simply do not like the idea of black people relying on other people for support. I think this is the only thing we Nubians understand more than other black people it seems. I would us black people suffer and die then seek the support of non black people like Kiwi.
We as black people are strong enough to fight our battle without the assistants of Asian, Whites, Arab etc..
Take presence of the Chinese people in Africa for example and their mistreatment of black Africans in our continent.. and rather than black people not accepting such mistreatment we complain about it to the white race, the same people who have oppressed us for centuries. It does not make sense.
Big wowo views about blacks matters less to me, the opinion about blacks from other race of people will always matters less to me. I
Again thanks for your response xx
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@Kiwi
On thread you are talking about you never shared a link proving anything. You simply stopped commenting on the thread period.
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I have the last comment on that thread
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@Kiwi
Is there any response to Jefe question that would be satisfy with? There are several example of your anti blackness on this blog… Peter Liang’s post for one, the Ali’s post another and several others. The fact that Jefe has been commenting and still dont notice your anti blackness clearly shows how anti blackness has been so normalised that non black people cant even notice any more.
You assert
”So Aaron Mak understands Black struggles yet you see support from other races like him as against Blacks’ interests? Obviously you have contempt for other races”
I am a big believe of doing for self. And black people across the globe need to start doing for self. Rely on other for support is counter productive to the fight for liberation and independence. So no, advocating for black agency and self determination isnt hating other people. I find it funny that you are accusing me of having contempt for other race, when it was you who refer to Aaron Mak and other Asians like as faux activist because according to you, they are putting the black struggle above the Asian struggles.
One more thing, do not twist my words.
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@Rabab
Thank you for pointing that out. He wants examples like most of these people have not seen it with their own eyes.
Small examples:
Kiwi: Almost all of these events don’t involve Blacks in any significant way yet somehow we’re supposed to believe Blacks experience the worst amount of racism. Sheesh.
Gro Jo: They would whine about feeling vaguely, inadequate, sexually, like a certain morally superior person, maybe?
Kiwi: Good guess, but Blacks already do that. Try again.
Now because I do not want to waste my time all day here are links to other Anti-black remarks of yours.
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@Rabab
Agree. Even Stevie Wonder can see his anti-black comments. I think too often the attitude is to understand where he is coming from rather than address them when he says it, thus making it okay. Yet he often projects to avoid addressing it.
Just found this for myself, but really wanted to share before I read it.
http://www.baggagereclaim.co.uk/dodging-peoples-projections-its-not-about-us-really/
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@Rabab
“…why should black people seek the support of other groups now, when we have been fighting our struggle without the support of other groups. We did it with slavery, apartheid, colonialism etc without their support. Surely we can do it without the support of others.”
I understand your sentiment.
In the US, Black people don’t necessarily seek the support of other groups, but historically Black people have successfully allied themselves with other groups in ways that were mutually beneficial. Since Black people are 10 percent of the population, it can help to have allies that help move Black people forward.
The abolition of slavery, the Civil Rights Movement and the current Movement for Black Lives have all been spearheaded and sustained by Black people. Yet, Americans of other ethnic groups participated in those struggles——not because Black people asked for support, but because those other groups understood that until all Americans are free, enjoy complete citizenship or are not brutalized by the State, none of us is free, enfranchised or safe.
In the cases of colonialism and apartheid, there were strong global networks of people who supported those African led struggles simply because it was the right thing to do. With South African apartheid, international economic pressure and isolation helped to end the legal structure of apartheid. The economic and social structures remain. A South African commenter, taotesan, gives more detail about the continuing struggle here:
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I agree that Black people should stand on their own two feet, that is imperative…and I think that a supportive relationship between equals is healthy too. Not every situation calls for either/or, sometimes both/and can work.
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@Kiwi
“After waiting almost a month. Took a while.”—Well that just goes to show how unimportant your lie was.
“So anybody criticizing Blacks is anti-Black. “—No, but interesting how you push your anti-black remarks off as simply criticism.
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Kiwi
And I repeat. The link you provided is of ypu explaining sarcasm to someone. It is not proof you are using sarcasm period. Itsp okay if you are stupid. After all projection is not about me but you.
What you said isn’t black criticism, but whatever to excuse your racism right?
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Kiwi
And I repeat…The link you provided is of you explaining sarcasm to someone. It is not proof you are using sarcasm period. Its okay if you are stupid. After all projection is not about me but you.
No that is your reasoning. So allow me to repeat again..What you said isn’t black criticism, but whatever to excuse your racism right?
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@Kiwi
“Unless you believe the Constitution mentions marriage, I was being sarcastic. It’s okay if you are stupid.”—What I believe does not change the fact that you were not using sarcasm. Not really a hard concept, but again with the projections. *shrugs*
“So allow me to repeat, you are just like the people who deflect criticism of Israel by calling it anti-Semitism.”—You can repeat it all day, but it really is deflection from you own anti-black comments. You do this every time to get people to look the other way on your behavior.
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@Kiwi
Again…
What I believe does not change the fact that you were not using sarcasm. Not really a hard concept, but again with the projections. *shrugs*
“Not when you call anyone you disagree with anti-Black, like you do with my comments.”—Accept you are not being called anti-black because you disagree with me. You are being called such based on the comments above and others that you have made. Comments that display you pretty much throwing blacks under the bus and then turning around and claiming it was to prove a point. SMH.
All this projection you are doing is going nowhere. However, I am because this is getting boring. Have a good night make stuff up. 😉
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@Rabab
If you feel comfortable doing so, please tell me about the ethnic/color situation in your home country?
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@ Kiwi
Thank you for answering my question about the counter-frames. I feel that I do understand the concept better now, and I agree with your statement that “the best way to view other groups of color is to view them through their own counter-frames.”
I am, however, having some difficulty with the following statement:
“Aaron Mak looks at Blacks through the Black counter-frame but also views Asians through that same frame, which is where problems begin to emerge.”
Is there any proof backing up the opinion that Aaron Mak doesn’t see Asian Americans through the Asian counter-frame? He’s getting attention in the mainstream media and online because of his interaction with Black Lives Matters, and the stories are being centered on that issue, which Mak does see through a black counter-frame. But I’m not sure it’s possible to draw a definitive conclusion from that about how he sees AAPIs.
Likewise, I’m having difficulty seeing what is so wrong about the Letter for Black Lives. It seems to me that letter was written by Asian Americans who see blacks through the black counter-frame for Asian Americans who have been seeing blacks through the white counter-frame. I don’t see how based on that alone we can draw the conclusion that everyone involved in the Letter for Black Lives sees Asians through the black counter-frame. Maybe some do, but can we really say all of them do, based on one action? Can’t someone who sees AAPIs through the AAPI counter-frame and who is actively involved in AAPI issues still multi-task and become involved in something like that letter without it meaning that they are faux-activists?
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@Kiwi..,
How exactly am advocating that these supposed Asian Activists putting black struggles above their? I am saying that we do not need the support of your race and other people. You are are the one claiming that Asian activist are putting the black struggle again their, which is a lie.
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AfroFem
Well am originally from Egypt.. my dad is a Nubian and my mother is a Tamasheq. But I am currently in Bulgaria right now studying medicine. In Egypt, we have the Arab Egyptians and Nubian Egyptians.
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What I really want to know is why is the Kiwi person on this blog. This person clearly have a hatred for blacks. I have been visiting this blog for also five years, but never comment until recently. I have some very anti black comment from people like White Pride and other white racist, but they are at least honest about their disdain for blacks.. But kiwi’s level of anti blackness is on a different… He disguises his anti blackness as criticism.
How have Blacks partake in the oppression of other races anti-Black? Can we say Asians have partake in the oppression of blacks and other race?
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@ Kiwi
I found what you wrote about “counter frames’ farther up the thread interesting and a valid view point worthy of consideration. It’s one I need to take the time to try to understand from your perspective.
In the meantime though you decided to carpet bomb the whole blig, restart old arguments, fires ect. That’s annoying.
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@Kiwi
“It does.”—It doesn’t register does it? I could believe the sky is purple, but it doesn’t mean you are being sarcastic just because you say it is green. I dismiss it as not being sarcastic because you commonly claim sarcasm after you say something that is wrong to avoid being pointed out as such. So I stand by what I said and will repeat it if you still don’t get it.
“None of the comments suggest anti-Blackness nor can you explain how they are so, which is why you haven’t tried.”—-I don’t need to explain how they are as they speak for themselves. Plus history tells me that even after explaining you are going to try to play it off as if they are not. Prime example is when I mentioned how you became anti-black with gro jo up thread you wrote it off as making a point. Now that you are faced with what you said you write it off as criticism. You always have an excuse for your racism, but never a solution for it.
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@Rabab
I enjoy the idea of having allies, however I agree fully that blacks should not rely on them. This is because too many false allies try to align themselves with causes. In the private group I belong to there is daily notification of fake allies. The idea is to make people aware of how the people who align with you can equally display racist behavior. You would not believe how many we run across on a daily basis. Many admittedly are white, but most people in the group have no shame about exposing friends or relatives.
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@MJB,
I agree with you here. An insightful point of view worthy of consideration is followed by ad hominem attacks reigniting old fires. But many people jump in on doing that, not just one person. Unfortunate.
Maybe it is better to address those points without referring to anyone so that another flame war doesn’t start.
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@Sharinalr.
I think you put that better than I could have ever done. I dont totally object to the idea of black people having allies either, i think what I disagree with the most is the idea that for blacks to rid ourselves of white racism and liberate ourselves we need Asians, non black latinos, Arabs, when anti blackness among these groups are sometimes as bad as that of white people.
What want more than anything is for black people to understand that we are alone in this fight, and if there are non black of POC want to support, fine. But begging for support from other groups? Not.
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Jefe
Give me a break.. you have been nothing but an apologia for Kiwi’s anti blackness.
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@Rabab
Give me a break — when have I ever apologized for Kiwi’s anti-blackness?
I do see him criticizing behaviour of certain categories of blacks often as well as hurling ad hominems here and there at commenters, I just don’t interpret that as being anti-black per se. I do see it as ineffective for communication.
He has also repeatedly spurted out scathing remarks about multiracial people, esp. Hapas, and plucked examples of his cousins, celebrities, and those he sees at the local Starbucks as evidence of his assertions. TO ME of all people. Despite all that foaming at the mouth, I don’t specifically see him as anti-multiracial or anti-Hapa per se. I just think there are better ways to express his frustrations. Sparking flame wars with ad hominems is not one of them.
I don’t agree with a lot of what he says, but sometimes he does express something insightful. I do often see some blacks (including at least half the commenters on this blog) viewing racism and white supremacy through a white lens (usually either a white liberal lens or a white colonialist lens). I realize after following this blog for many years that I actually noticed that when I was growing up too, but in my youth I just chalked it up to an observation that blacks often seemed to copy white attitudes or mimic white behaviour or ideologies, regardless of whether they were trying to identify with whites or not, but I didn’t have an explanation for it at the time. In other words, it was explained by something simple as internalized racism.
I grew up in an environment that was about 50/50 white and black, during the transition from segregation to desegregation and affirmative action. So witnessing white/black interaction, as well as intra-white and intra-black interaction was a daily event for me.
I figured out some things growing up, often through my own research, but this blog has shown me quite a bit as well, eg,
Many blacks, whether from the US, the West Indies, South America, and even large chunks of Africa have been indoctrinated with a white colonialist mindset, and see themselves (and interpret the world) in some kind of mirror with respect to white people – definitely the majority of commenters on this blog. Some (not most) white people do also see themselves as a mirror to black people, esp. in the areas where blacks are in a large minority or even in the majority.
In the USA, the white colonialist mindset is modeled after the white liberal lens, which includes things such as
– seeing the system of white supremacy (as well as white privilege) as one of racial hierarchy based on skin colour
– ignoring the 2nd and 3rd pillars of white supremacy as they don’t fit into the first one.
– rewriting the narrative to match their world view
(outside the USA, there are probably other terms and descriptors for the local colonialist white mindset).
An example of rewriting the narrative to fit the revised world view: the extent of death and disease in the Middle Passage makes the historical suffering of modern blacks much worse than anyone else (even though in actuality millions more Asians were trafficked and died in the coolie trade than Africans in the Middle Passage).
–> both blacks and white liberals can find revisionist narratives to agree on.
Ethnic cleansing and genocide were hallmarks of the 2nd and 3rd pillars, but those actions of white supremacy tend to leave few surviving descendants. Hence, they can be ignored (like they are by most commenters on this blog and previously by Abagond).
Also, survivors, albeit still resisting, tend to be less obviously vociferous about what happened (that is, after all, how they survived).
Revised narrative: It didn’t happen or it couldn’t be helped.
Another revised narrative of racism and white supremacy: model minority (although that narrative is more favoured by white conservatives than white liberals).
I think what we need is education, for everyone. The 2nd and 3rd pillars of white supremacy, together with the first, were instrumental to create the modern social and political system in the USA. So, they need to be taught.
I hope that no one see any of these comments as anti-black because they are not. It is only a sign that there is a lot of work to do. I would be happy if Abagond endeavours to work on it too. This post on Aaron Mak is a good start, but it is only one side of the equation.
If you look at this post, it looks as if white liberals and blacks (who often see racism through a modified white liberal lens anyhow) see Aaron Mak as genuinely anti-racist only if he is actively trying to tear down the first pillar. Just think about how much of the argument is being left out.
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Correction:
In other words, it was not explained by something simple as internalized racism.
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@Jefe
Apologia ”defense of one’s opinions or conduct.” See I never accused you of apologizing.
Let me guess you are Asian?
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@Jefe
You assert that ” I realize after following this blog for many years that I actually noticed that when I was growing up too, but in my youth I just chalked it up to an observation that blacks often seemed to copy white attitudes or mimic white behaviour or ideologies, regardless of whether they were trying to identify with whites or not, but I didn’t have an explanation for it at the time”
An example of this?
Your assertion;
”Many blacks, whether from the US, the West Indies, South America, and even large chunks of Africa have been indoctrinated with a white colonialist mindset”
This is not exclusive to black people, all colonised people have been indoctrinated with the white colonial mindset. Even Asians like the Filipinio who were colonized also suffers from colonial mentality. Why? because whites have been able to impose their philosophy, their way of thinking, their desires, their ideas, their tastes and their manners upon non-Europeans to the same extent that they have been able to force their symbols of civilization into us non whites, people which can never adjust themselves to European manners, longing, tastes and ways of thinking. So what is your point?
Your assertion
”I do often see some blacks (including at least half the commenters on this blog) viewing racism and white supremacy through a white lens (usually either a white liberal lens or a white colonialist lens)”
What does that mean? I personally find this comment rather condescending, because to you are essentially saying that are unable to construct a worldview outside whiteness.
”Some (not most) white people do also see themselves as a mirror to black people”
This applies to Asians as well other non black people.
What is the 2nd and 3rd pillars of white supremacy?
It is quite amusing the way you write in such a pompous and overly complex style of English. You seriously seem to think that this makes up for the deficiencies in your logic. Am not phase by such racial chauvinism, try again. If you are going to respond with such pretentious rhetorical nonsense, do yourself a favour and the entry that you are commenting on.
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@jefe
“In the USA, the white colonialist mindset is modeled after the white liberal lens”
White colonialists were anything but “liberal” in the political sense. The founders in the US used a lot of high-minded language, but the hard, cold reality of their lives and legacy included such traditionally “conservative” values as political control, murder, theft (on a massive scale) and strict social hierarchies.
White “liberalism” as it is bandied about here was constructed centuries after global White colonialism began in earnest.
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I’ve noticed a trend of Asian American rightwingers tossing about terms like “White liberals” and “White Liberalism” and tying those terms to Black people. Those comments are often dripping with scorn for those “White Liberals” and the Black people with whom they are allegedly allied. That trend is both fascinating and deceptive. In reality, the subjects of their ire are the masses of ordinary Black people. Cloaking their anti-Black animus in scorn for “Liberalism” (or any diversionary label) is a very old and time-tested technique of using coded language.
From the perspective of many Black people, there is no appreciable difference in “White Liberals” and “White Conservatives”. Both groups are White Supremacist to the core and mistrusted by most Black people.
The only difference I have noticed over the years is the insistence of White Conservatives for control and the insistence of White Liberals for centrality. In other words, many White conservatives want to control everyone around them politically, economically and culturally. Many White liberals on the other hand, feel that their thoughts, feelings and concerns should be central to everyone around them, otherwise a “fragility attack” will ensue. Those differences are of little concern for groups straining for White/European inclusion and acceptance.
Bashing Black people and their imagined allies is the real goal here.
Stepping on Black people to achieve Whiteness also has a long and vaunted history in America…as does attempting to gaslight Black people into ignoring the sensation of boots on their backs.
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^^^^^ @Afrofem – LIKE
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Afrofem
Love the way ypu break it down so smoothly!!!
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You*
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@ Afrofem
Oh my goodness… Thanks for that excellent response. That was amazing.. That was beautiful to read
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@Rabab,
100% agree with that. It is common thoughout Asia and the Americas and among all POC in the USA as well, not just blacks.
That can partially explain why blacks might use a white lens to view Asians (and even other blacks sometimes) and white Asians might use a white lens to view blacks (and even other Asians). Both might see Native Americans through a white lens, because that is what they were taught in school.
my point: It is common so it should not be a surprise. But it should not be an offensive topic to note and discuss.
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@Rabab,
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@Afrofem
Thank you. You are correct that we should be careful about using these words. We should define what we mean by them first. When I used those words upthread, I did not mean to imply that 17th-19th century white colonialists necessarily embraced traditional ideas of political liberalism.
By colonized mentality, I meant a mindset or view of the world that one is somehow subordinate to another group, and takes on at least some of the beliefs and attitudes of that group. I was not referring to actual colonists during the European colonial period.
By white liberal, I was referring to how it is often used on this blog (ie, Abagond’s white liberal guides).
Beyond that, I am not sure if your rebuttal was about some tendency or “trend of Asian American rightwingers tossing about terms like “White liberals” and “White Liberalism” and tying those terms to Black people. Those comments are often dripping with scorn for those “White Liberals” and the Black people with whom they are allegedly allied. ”
If that is your point, then that goes way beyond what I was saying. I don’t think that blacks see themselves allied with White Liberals at all. Far from it. What I meant that there are gaps in just about every individual’s understanding of white supremacy in the US and other places, and those gaps are often filled in with views from a white lens, be it white liberals or white conservatives (more the former). There is no implication that it means that they are automatically allied.
By the way, Asian Americans and Native Americans often fill in their gaps in understanding about others, including blacks, with a white lens viewpoint too. Everyone does it because we are subject to a white supremacist education system and a white dominated media.
Case in point:
The Pamunkey were the most recent Native American tribe to gain Federal recognition (2015).
There were many forces that opposed this. A couple of them include
White Liberal opposition: The Pamunkey banned intermarriage with blacks on their tribal rules for decades during the 20th century, and did not formally repeal them until recently (although it has not been practiced since the 1960s). The Congressional Black Caucus opposed their recognition for this reason. In other words, they reached a consensus that was consistent with a white liberal objection. (This is not saying that they necessarily allied with white liberals in general, but assumed a political viewpoint on this specific issue that was consistent with white liberals and against the Pamunkey.)
White conservative opposition: There were main 2 points here:
i. The Pamunkey were not authentic American Indians (this is due largely to Walter Plecker who reassigned the racial label of their ancestors to “colored”).
ii. If they are federally recognized, then they are exempt from federal taxes. That is perceived by some to be unfair.
–> Fewer blacks opposed their recognition on these grounds.
Afrofem, you have frequently described the system of white supremacy in the USA as one of racial hierarchy that is loosely related to skin colour, with whites on top, blacks at the bottom and everyone else in between. I see that as largely consistent with the white liberal viewpoint of how white supremacy is depicted in the USA. In no way does it mean that you are fully allied with White Liberals or white anything on any or all matters, especially since whites and blacks perceive themselves on opposite ends of that spectrum.
It does, however, ignore the 2nd and 3rd pillars of white supremacy in the USA, which is something that “white liberals” often do. Since black political interests are not well defined on the other pillars, they often ignore them too.
Now, we come to the point that some Asian Americans ignore the 2nd and 3rd pillars also, and see themselves as a stakeholder in the 1st pillar (which, arguably to a great extent, they are). However, the degree to which they are perceived as anti-racist or white supremacist is dependent on where on that spectrum they place their political interest.
The question is, why should they ignore the 2nd and 3rd pillars, when they do have a stake in those too (esp. the 3rd one)?. Is it appropriate for them to avoid subserving their interests on the other pillars and focus only on allying to dismantle (or uphold) the first one? All three pillars are holding up the structure of white supremacy in the USA. Allying with blacks to dismantle the first pillar is also in their political interest, but it will do little to dismantle the other pillars which place them as a victim under white supremacy.
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“@ Jefe.
”Asian Americans ignore the 2nd and 3rd pillars also, and see themselves as a stakeholder in the 1st pillar”
From what I have been from the Asian blogs I have visited in the last couple of days, the assertion above is untrue. No group of people focus on the issues of other people over their issues, as evident by the Peter Liang’s case. All human beings act in self-interest, and to suggest that Asians are different from other humans is rather comical. Even if this assertion is true, shouldn’t you actively telling telling other Asian to focus on Pillar one? I really do not understand telling us blacks of this false statement helps Asians break down the pillar that affects them the most? At this point, it seems that you and Kiwi are having this conversation for the sake of conversation. Why should black people be faulted for your failure to address the accept of white supremacy that affects your people the most? The reason you are people are talking about this issue here, rather in some Asian blog or to the people in your community who you think paying too much attention to Pillar one is because, you do not focus on pillar one over pillar 3.
”you have frequently described the system of white supremacy in the USA as one of racial hierarchy that is loosely related to skin colour, with whites on top, blacks at the bottom and everyone else in between.”
Are you saying this is not true? Fundamentally, racism, as is expressed by white people, is characterised by a hierarchal nature. There’s a common (and most asinine) asssumption that racists loathe and despise all other races equally this is quite untrue. I remember reading a study not so long ago that ci proved that the darker an immigrant to the United States is, the less money they will be able to earn. I do think skin colour makes a HUGE difference in one’s potential for success. Historically, the “blacks” who have made the social breakthroughs for the black race have been more lightly complexioned, even mixed. Do you really think Barack’s time getting elected would have really been so easy had he looked Idi Amin? There is a relative regard in which the respectability of races is assessed and subsequently asserted by white people and I believe that the greatest determinant skin colour. In terms of economic success, the respective degrees of such minority races are as follows: Asians, Arabs, non black Hispanics, Native Americans, blacks, . I do believe Native the Americas have been so socially and culturally ravaged by whites dominance that they are almost not a functioning group. I think a better indication of the racial hierarchal structure would be the status of their Hispanic brethren.
Also are you saying that blacks are unable to interpret the world, with relying on the whiten liberal vs conservative narratives?
How does it ignore the 2nd and 3rd pillars of white supremacy?
”Since black political interests are not well defined on the other pillars, they often ignore them too.”
I could easily made the same assertion about Asians, ignoring pillar 1 and 2, for the same reason ”black political interests are not well defined on pillars 1 and 2”.
Asians do not ignore pillar 3. Please stop.
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”Is it appropriate for them to avoid subserving their interests on the other pillars and focus only on allying to dismantle (or uphold) the first one?”
This is not true and black people are not asking Asians to ally with us to dismantle the first pillar. The reason Asians are not are allying with blacks to dismantle the first pillar over Pillar 3, is because it is not in their political interest to do so, despite your rhetoric.
How about this, you Asian focus on the pillar that affect you, Blacks – on the one that affect us and Natives – on the one that affect them? In that way, independently we can dismantle all three pillars of white supremacy.
This right here is the reason I hate the concept of ally.. All I can hear from you is that black people are selfish, they only focus on there issues, while we Asians are helping black dismantle pillar. Which is basically a lie. This another attempt to demonise black people in the USA.
Jefe..
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Rabab
Applause!!
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@Rabab,
Where have I ever demonized black people? or even made such an attempt?
no, not at all. It is certainly one way of characterizing the system of white supremacy in the USA and said many times so much. What’s more, all people in the USA have a stake in that system on many different fronts, not just blacks. For example, racialized cheap labour affects many different groups, both historically and in the present.
In addition to that system, there are also other ways of characterizing the systems of white supremacy, that is all. If one merely says, “The system of white supremacy is one based on racial hierarchy related to skin colour blah, blah, blah, then it overlooks other aspects.
What’s more, it is possible to be a victim of racial oppression in one of the pillars and act as an agent of oppression in other pillars. And any given individual could be affected by multiple pillars at the same time. For example, many Chicanos in the USA are affected regularly by all 3 pillars. What’s more, even the 3-pillar model is a simplification used to illustrate the idea.
All I am saying is that it is complicated. It is not nearly as simple as the one-factor racial hierarchy system that many have postulated.
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”Where have I ever demonized black people? or even made such an attempt?”
But you keep saying that Asians are neglecting issues that affect your community to focus on anti blackness in the USA, whereas blacks are not helping to take down the other pillars of white supremacy. When I read such statement, what I hear is you saying ”Blacks only focus on their issues, but we Asians are the true anti racist because we are fight to break down the pillar one over Pillar 3”. I see that comment as an attack on black people, doing what comes naturally to all humans including Asians.
”What’s more, all people in the USA have a stake in that system on many different fronts, not just blacks.”
Ok.. can you tell me how does pillar one of white supremacy impinge on non black POC? It can be argued that non black POC benefit from anti black racism. Also, no one is saying that racism only affect black people. Off course racism affects all people of colour.
”In addition to that system, there are also other ways of characterizing the systems of white supremacy, that is all. If one merely says, “The system of white supremacy is one based on racial hierarchy related to skin colour blah, blah, blah, then it overlooks other aspects”
Off course… but no one is saying that ”The system of white supremacy is one based on racial hierarchy related to skin colour”. But it is one aspect of white supremacy that affect black people.
”, many Chicanos in the USA are affected regularly by all 3 pillars.”
How are they affected by pillar one?
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@jefe
On quite a few threads there has been disagreement between us about the nature of White Supremacy in the USA. You have maintained a view that a three pillar (or more) model is most descriptive. This comment of yours from the Yellowface thread is typical:
“…I don’t agree with… other paradigms that many have presented on this and other threads.
1. The USA’s system of racial oppression is a vertical one. The system of racial oppression (or alternatively, white supremacy) does not follow the model of whites on top, blacks on the bottom, and everyone else in-between. The better model is the three-pillar model (or maybe multi-pillar model) that Abagond described in the post by that name. Yes, white is on top, but the rest is not arranged in vertical progression. Native and Asian Americans (and Latinos and Muslims) are in completely different pillars, and face a rather different sort of oppression. .”
I have maintained a view that White Supremacy is primarily a vertical construction, with White/European people on top and Black/African people on the bottom and everyone else arrayed between the two in color coded fashion.
The comments on this thread made me curious enough to re-read Abagond’s Three Pillar post. I also decided to go to the source material written by Professor Andrea Smith (University of California, Riverside). Professor Smith wrote a paper in 2012 called Indigeneity, Settler Colonialism, White Supremacy. Abagond wrote a post on based on that paper in 2013.
I researched and found Professor Smith’s paper in .pdf format and saw that some of our disagreement is based on a false dichotomy. You and I have been arguing either / or when a clear view of the superstructure of White Supremacy demands a both / and understanding.
The .pdf can be found here:
Click to access smith-racial-formations-article1.pdf
Professor Smith’s description of the superstructure covers both our concerns and raises fresh questions. I don’t agree with all of Professor Smith’s views or conclusions, but they certainly are thought provoking and complex.
Smith’s descriptions include:
◎Multiple Logics: Abagond did an excellent job of covering Professor Smith’s “logics” or Pillars of American White Supremacy. Reading his post will educate people unfamiliar with the pillars on their place in the White Supremacist-Settler/Colonialist superstructure.
◎Slavery and Racial Hierarchy
◎Orientalism and Perpetual Foreign Threats
◎Indigenous-Settler Pillar and Genocide
◎Complicity with White Supremacy
◎Imagining Alternatives
I will place further comments about about Professor Smith’s descriptions in the Three Pillars thread to avoid completely derailing this thread.
A link to the first comment:
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@ Kiwi
“The fact that Mak, like Letters for Black Lives, attacks other Asians, especially FOBs, for fighting against anti-Asian racism (SCA5) tells me that he places Black concerns above Asian concerns.”
I have yet to see a direct quote where Mak does this. Can you provide one?
Honestly, I thought the Letter was simply an attempt to help family members shift from viewing African Americans through a white lens to more of a black counter-frame. How does that in and of itself work against AAPI interests, especially when the specific issue — police violence and brutality — also negatively impacts AAPIs?
“while the liberals acknowledge racism exists, they deny that there is racism against Asians. Asians are effectively the ‘honorary Whites’. They have no real problems.”
That’s the Model Minority stereotype at work. It is difficult to prove to people that such a “positive” stereotype is actually negative, harmful, and untrue. I’ve had my share of arguments with white liberals, moderates, and conservatives on this one.
“This tells me that this pervasive mindset has more to do with how the education system has erased Asian American history than it has to do with any close observation of reality. One of my aunts completed her PhD at a very White university in the US and when she discovered that her committee was actively preventing her from graduating, she asked a White administration member if she could sue them. The White administrator looked at her with an astonished expression and said ‘You? Sue them? Are you kidding? You’re not even Black!'”
So what is the take-away from that story? There are plenty of non-Asian minority PhD candidates who have also been blocked by their committee, advisor, or department head due to racism. Yes, the story does illustrate the thinking of many white people that minority = black and only black. But the fault still lies with the white administrator. My guess is this same white administrator, confronted with a black student with the same experience of institutional racism, would have come up with a different reason to discourage that student from suing.
“I still believe alliances are valuable, but it’s obvious they’ll only work when interests align.”
Right, but there are some activists who take it a step further and are committed to finding ways to align interests whenever possible. They don’t just wait for a time when interests magically align but instead are constantly communicating with other groups to work through points of conflict and find common ground. That sometimes involves compromise and prioritizing certain goals identified as promoting the greater good.
I’m concerned that some of the people you consider hypocrites are actually working from this standpoint. Perhaps they see themselves not as putting Asian issues last but as working in solidarity to achieve justice and equality for all POC.
You know that my spouse is Asian American. We were in California when affirmative action ended and he was at that time working in the UC system. The immediate effect was a sharp plummet in enrollment of black, Hispanic, and Native students. He was very much against ending affirmative action because he knew this would be the result, and he saw it as harmful not just to those populations but to the state of California and the nation as a whole.
I don’t know where he would stand on SCA5 if we still lived there. If it is a badly written law, that’s one thing. Generally, though, it’s safe to say he would support it if it does in fact restore affirmative action. Not because he is devaluing Asian American concerns about artificial quotas, but because he believes that’s an entirely different issue separate from affirmative action.
White people want under-represented POC to believe they are competing with Asians for the available “minority” slots. They want Asians to believe that affirmative action will be used against them to keep their numbers down to parity instead of over-represented. It is a con game to keep all POC from noticing the man behind the curtain pulling the levers is white.
In the case of affirmative action, the enemy is white. In the case of lifting artificial quotas on Asians, the enemy is white. That white enemy is doing everything he can to obfuscate his involvement and confuse the two issues. He wants POC divided over these two issues instead of presenting a united front.
I know you are going to say that all these other people are buying into it and are therefore hypocrites. What ultimately matters, though, is you and what path you choose to take. You can’t convince everyone, you can’t convert the world, and the only person you can ever truly change is yourself.
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@Kiwi
“ou dismiss it because to do otherwise would be to admit you were wrong.”—When I am wrong about something I admit it, but I won’t admit it when I have provided sources that support it. However, in my time here I have noticed that when you are wrong about something you deny the accuracy, pull out your anecdotal experiences, and then use ad hominems if you are still not believed. That sir is the true definition of broken record and insanity wrapped in one.
“You won’t explain them because you know you can’t. As usual, you pull BS out of your ass and you will keep doing so even when others prove you wrong.”—All this is a trumped up way to avoid that what you said was racist. It is called an ad hominem. If by bs you mean sources then of course, but those just end up proving others wrong such as yourself. 😉
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@Kiwi
“. In fact, it was something I noticed about you early on. That’s why I pity you.”—Well dear that just shows that you don’t pay attention to my posts to being with because there are quite a few posts that contradict you.
“When I asked for sources proving the Perpetual Foreigner stereotype doesn’t affect Asians, you pulled up bogus links that you found in less than 5 minutes that had nothing to do with the stereotype.”—Just because you did not agree with the sources doesn’t mean they weren’t provided. They were and they basically contradicted what you were claiming. You then attempted to twist my words to say I claimed something else. That is your problem.
“efe and Solitaire shared experiences that proved you wrong, but being the stupid person that you are, you wouldn’t admit it. Any self-respecting Asian would be ashamed to call you an ally”—Sharing experiences didn’t prove me wrong as anecdotal is just that. When solitaire asked where I got my information from I proved a source, so it was no longer a matter of the Asians I know. Jefe and I actually didn’t disagree on much of anything, but of those we did disagree on it wasn’t that I was wrong and frankly it was not that he was either, because anecdotal allows for different experiences. You would know that if you were not hell bent on twisting reality.
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begin*
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From Wikipedia.
“Since the passage of Proposition 209, higher graduation rates have been posted at University of California schools,[9] which led opponents of affirmative action to suggest a causal link between Proposition 209 and a better-prepared student body. The African American graduation rate at the University of California, Berkeley increased by 6.5 percent,[10] and rose even more dramatically, from 26 percent to 52 percent, at the University of California, San Diego.[9]
While African American graduation rates at UC Berkeley increased by 6.5 percent,[10] the enrollment rates dropped significantly.[11] Criticism was made of the fact that of the 4,422 students in UCLA’s freshman class of 2006, only 100 (2.26%) were African American.[12]
Based on “University of California Applicants, Admits and New Enrollees by Campus, Race/Ethnicity”, prepared by Institutional Research, the University of California Office of the President, August 11, 2011, enrollment percentages of the four major ethnic groups university-wide are:
Chicano/Latino enrollment percentage, after several years of decreases, dramatically increased from the lowest 11.3% in 1998 to 20.7% in 2010. In contrast, White enrollment percentage, after achieving a high of 40.2% in 1997, decreased significantly to 26.8% in 2010. Asian American enrollment percentage remained stable.
The acceptance rate, or yield rate, is about the number of students who accepted their admission offer. Asian American acceptance rates are much higher than other ethnic groups.[13]”
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Wanted to share the latest post from LLAG.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1144265605664917&substory_index=0&id=100744900016998
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“Wanted to share the latest post from LLAG.”
@Sharina
Interesting read. I was a Marvel comics Power Man/Luke Cage fan for about a NY minute! But I never knew about the Asian tie in.
Were you bored? You know who has been sleeping lately. Are you trying to wake …. the dead??
This might cause him to creep out of his coffin long enough to start howling at the moon … or at Black people. You how he does.
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@Fan …
LOL… Even though I am aware that little psychopath crawls out of the sewer when he sees things like this, I was more concerned with pointing it out to others, particularly solitaire and Jefe, who were skeptical on what I relayed as vocal rhetoric among Asians. Of course I understand their skepticism being that I am not Asian myself, but It helps to point it out to show that Asians are talking about how other Asians are not being as vocal and active as they could and should be, yet are throwing shade to other groups who put in the work to get results.
I agree with LLAG that Asians need to be unapologetically Asian. No more begging to sit at the white mans table.
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Kiwi, when are you going to start protesting the shameless prostitution of Asian women by Asian pimps? http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/chinatown-and-soho-18-arrested-in-prostitution-and-slavery-raids-as-police-storm-six-massage-a3374971.html. Quit whining and get to work, or are you afraid of what Asian pimps will do to you if you stick your nose in their business?
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@Kiwi
It doesn’t take much political courage to protest against Black people. Asian Americans don’t really care what Black people think or feel. Black people are at the bottom of America’s social hierarchy and Asian Americans benefit from that arrangement.
When Asian Americans finally find the courage to protest against White people (and their anti-Asian policies, attitudes and actions) then Asian-American protests will be taken seriously.
Until then it is just “kiss up, kick down” political “pandering” and posturing.
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@Kiwi
What you just wrote was a paragraph full of strawmans. She said nothing about they need to stand up for black causes, but they should stand up and protest the injustices that white people do against them.
Also other Asians don’t take mainstream Asian activism seriously because the unification is only valuable when you want to paint the group as being discriminated against. Cambodians and Filipino face heavy discrimination and Chinese aren’t interested in the injustice againat them until they need them for hair causes.
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Their*
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revenue of Asian prostitution rackets:
China$73 Billion
Japan$24 Billion
South Korea$12 Billion
Thailand$6.4 Billion
Philippines$6 Billion
Indonesia$2.25 Billion
Taiwan$1.84 Billion
And Kiwi doesn’t care! Stop the Asian whoremongers.
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@Kiwi
“”Feel free to leave your usual asinine reply below.
LOL! Here is my “asinine reply”.
I happen to believe that Asian Americans (a very broad category, that includes a wide variety of ethnicities) have something to protest about in America.
✖︎You have mentioned the “bamboo ceiling” where Asian tech workers and professionals are considered “good enough” for support jobs (programming, engineering, customer relations, etc.) but steered away from line jobs (sales, marketing and finance) that normally lead to the executive suites of many corporations.
✖︎The attitudes of other Americans that Asian Americans are not quite “American” enough. Abagond and other writers have written volumes about that phenomenon, so I won’t belabor the point here. Those attitudes are an insult and should be resisted.
✖︎Related to the “foreigner” stereotype is the demeaning behavior toward Asian descent individuals I have witnessed over the years; bullying, condescension and mockery. One example is an incident that a Chinese American colleague handled at a local Chamber of Commerce “meet and greet” cruise. She and I were making the rounds, shaking hands and chatting when a self-important White man made inappropriate sexual remarks to her and then casually strolled away. She and I were stunned. Then she strode up to him and in a firm, clear, loud voice told him that “you don’t ever talk to me like that! I’m not a thing, I’m a person just like you.”
It was Mr. Self-Important’s turn to be stunned. First, he just stood there with a surprised look on his face. Then he tried to turn away, as if to ignore her. She repositioned herself in front of him and repeated her statement. Only then did it dawn on Mr. Self-Important that she meant business. He turned red, stammered out a hurried apology and stalked away from her.
I had seen and heard similar insults to Asian women prior to that. Most would respond by folding in on themselves. Not my colleague. She stood up for herself and gained (greater) respect from me and others who saw her refuse to be abused.
✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎✖︎
So if you want to protest, Kiwi. Go for it. Find the courage to go after the powerful. It will be hard and uncomfortable, but the greatest prize will be found in confronting the true power structure in this country instead of grousing about the powerless. Emulate the Native American North Dakota Pipeline Protestors/Protectors, Latino Immigrant Rights Dreamers and the Movement for Black Lives.
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Afrofem, your comment implies that you take Kiwi’s bs seriously. He has found his calling. Nothing will deter him from harassing his former mentor, Abagond. His trajectory is from acolyte to an epigone, who’s compelled to destroy the master.
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Carry on!
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@ Kiwi
Have you stopped to think about what your purpose is in the argument that you’re continuing here? I don’t mean that as a criticism but as a sincere question, because I’m not sure what you’re pursuing or hoping for.
Do you want a concession that relations between Asian Americans and African Americans have been and still are strained? Do you want some type of permission to follow your own path as an Asian American? What are you seeking?
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“gro jo is a troll so at best all he can come up with is the Asian equivalent of the Black-on-Black crime argument.”
Can’t stand getting a dose of your own medicine can you?. Correction, it’s the Asian-on-Asian crime argument I’ve used. Crime and blacks are indelibly connected in your mind that you don’t even see it.
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You never explained what qualified you to speak for Asians. Asians, to my knowledge, include Negroids, Caucasians, Dravidians and Mongoloids. Like your buddy Jefe, you like to claim things that don’t stand up under scrutiny. Does that make you a bs artist?
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@Kiwi
I know how you like to project so I will take pity on you. What I said is not a variation of an Asian trope. What I said was a paraphrasing of words from an Asian activist that I quoted above and can quote other things he and his Asian Followers have said. In fact in a more recent post he spoke on how the Chinese (white people of the Asian community) are racist against them (SE Asians). How many of ya’ll will dismiss what they say until you need help protesting your rights and all of a sudden you guys are all Asian again. So it explains how you dismiss Leigh’s comments. and even quotes from other SE Asians.
Though that is neither here no there because your straw man needs to be addressed. My position is not nor has it ever been that Asian activism is not to be taken seriously because Asians not support other Asians. My position is that you refuse to acknowledge that your lack of unification is because you guys refuse to support other Asians. My positions is that you guys are hipped to fight or protest black people, but will tip toe around white people and injustices they do against you. Justifying it all the while screaming how blacks won’t support you. YOU are the FAUX activist. My comments are not directed at the Asian community as a whole, but Asians such as yourself. You are a prime example of all things the Asian activist community don’t need. A prime example of all the things LLAG talks about.
My personal opinion (that I have yet to be vocalize), you want black help to sit at the white table and I don’t even support black people that do that so I would never advocate any other group do it.
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“…the only people to acknowledge the double standard towards Asian activism have been … Женщина, Hillary Li, Ben Ef, and bigWOWO, who surprise surprise- are all Asian.”
You forgot to mention that everyone listed above are virulent, anti-Black Asian Supremacists. Their main claim to “fame” is that they want White Power in a golden face and feel that blaming Black people for every social ill is the quickest route to that destination. Conversely, they are too craven to confront the real power in this country, the White majority. That is a feature, not a bug of the racial hierarchy of this country.
Professor Andrea Smith summed it up this way:
People like Aaron Mak understand this dynamic. They realize that ethnic Supremacy in a plural society is a recipe for disaster. He and others like him are seeking an American society where all persons thrive. I stand with people like Aaron Mak.
You did not bother to refute the positions I put forth upthread because like your mentors, what I think as a Black person doesn’t matter to you.
Unlike you, Kiwi, I have been around a lot of different people of various ethnicities, as a co-worker, colleague, customer, classmate, employer, friend, student and teacher. I have come to see people as people. I have dined with different people in their homes and helped them out of tight spots. They have done the same for me. I see other people as fully human: flawed, wonderful and complex.
Someday you may choose to see everyone’s humanity. Right now, you choose not to because wallowing in your phony Asian “oppression” feels so good, so self-righteous. You have no idea what real oppression feels like.
Rage on, Mr. Privilege, rage on….
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That Aaron Mak is cute, jealous Kiwi?
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Herneith, I love you. You know how to get to the heart of things in few words. Nobody likes Kiwi, so he comes here express his hatred of humanity. Naturally, his rant is Negrophobic. The only response he deserves are the ones you and I make. Give him something to be mad at.
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@ Kiwi
So do I understand correctly that what you are seeking is for others to admit that there is a double standard, both here on this blog and in the larger society?
If that isn’t quite right, please correct my statement.
If it were to happen, what do you believe would be the end result? I’m not asking you to post that answer here, although of course you can if you like. What I’m asking is that you think about what result you hope for, what result would be likely, etc.
Do you just want the vindication of feeling that you were right, that you proved your point?
Do you want to foster constructive dialogue?
Would it drain out some of the anger and frustration? Or would it make those feelings worse?
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
The bet was:
“I challenge you to go a week of active commenting without bringing [up] or alluding to the “I” word.”
That was an allusion. I already let one allusion go (on the original thread), but I can’t let two pass.
Restart the clock.
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“Do you want to foster constructive dialogue?”
Hell no! I just want to rant on endlessly.
“Would it drain out some of the anger and frustration? Or would it make those feelings worse?”
I feed (like a vampire) off of anger and frustration. Yesterday it was about Asian women & white male relationships. Today it’s about double standards. Tomorrow it’ll be about something else of my liking! Excuse me, my coffin is calling. Nap time.
___________________
“Don’t make enemies when you could be forging connections.”
Look who’s talking! Making enemies here is one of the things you do best.
___________________
“I challenge you to go a week of active commenting without bringing [up] or alluding to the “I” word.”
lol
I hope you’re looking forward to a lot of restarts, resets and recommencements! This wee widdle laddie is hopeless. That challenge has got to be cruel and inhuman punishment…
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Agree with Fan… this double standard thing is just another excuse used to justify his anger at black people, because everyone has acknowledge the double standard. Just no one is going to acknowledge it and see Peter Lang as innocent either.
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@LOM
You are off base as usual.
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@LOM
Or you could actually just read. Afrofem has been very understanding even though all kiwi has done was attack her.
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Solitaire
Well done you re the ‘I’ word, sssshhhhh. If I was a gambling man I might take bets…
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@ Omnipresent
Apparently more people are seeing the challenge here than on the original thread, but I already told LoM that I don’t think he can do it:
I’m willing to give him more than one try, and I’m willing to be proven wrong — but I ain’t holding my breath.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
Talking about the bet doesn’t count unless you do so to allude to the “I” word and your inability to include that topic in your comments.
“what’s the quid pro quo for me”
Dunno, I hadn’t thought that far.
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@LoM
A precondition for re-conciliation is an original state of conciliation and cordiality. Those elements have been absent from day one.
The Asian Supremacy Argument thread is long, convoluted and contentious. It is also the thread where certain patterns became apparent. This comment sums up my understanding:
Nice try, LoM.
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“I supported Peter Liang’s conviction. ” How many years did you say he should get again? I forget! How’s your campaign against Asian whore mongers coming along, I haven’t seen a single report on mass protests in front of Asian owned massage parlors? I hope you’re not falling down on the job again. You did a crappy job defending Asian real estate buyers being blamed for high prices in Canada.
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“Just upthread, gro jo and leigh204 were high fiving each other over their supposed Black/Asian solidarity, but now gro jo is calling people from her demographic “Asian whore”.
This, Kiwi my boy, is why you are my favorite slimeball hypocrite. Asian massage parlors exist in almost all cities in North America. You haven’t lifted a finger to liberate your Asian sisters from the evil Asian pimps who hold them in thralldom. Go sell your smug bs somewhere else.
Being the fair minded guy I am, I’ll entertain you pretense to be ignorant of what’s going on in your community. With that in mind, here’s an article about these dens of inequity. You’re a ‘smart’ guy, I’m sure you can find such places close to home and get busy protecting Asian women from, as they used to say, a fate worse than death. Happy hunting. http://crosscut.com/2015/12/best-of-2015-massage-parlors-happy-endings-the-burgeoning-eastside-brothel-scene/
Oh, Lordy, keep your big red Irish nose out of my conversation with my buddy, Kiwi.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
“Thank you for showing us what a racist you are with the last line of that comment. ”
I guess that makes two of YOU.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
Awww, poor thing likes calling people racists, but gets upset when he’s APTLY called one.
Maybe Abagond will do something to wipe your tears the way he rushed to wipe a white woman’s tears recently.
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resw, I missed you bs. I’m surprised that you would make time out of your busy schedule, planing Trump’s enthronement! What crumb has the ‘great’ man thrown your way for your canine devotion to his person?
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“Lord of Mirkwood
@Gro Jo
Thank you for showing us what a racist you are with the last line of that comment. Hopefully the rest of the commenters here can see that odious monstrosity of a racist sentence and draw some conclusions about your character.”
You’re welcome Lordy. Happy to oblige.
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@gro jo
Too bad your girl can’t throw any crumbs your way from prison. And don’t forget to take your Zoloft. We were worried about you on election night.
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Where do you get the absurd notion that I gave a damn about HRC’s fate?
” on Sun 13 Nov 2016 at 15:27:50
gro jo
Please, someone, tell me how electing HRC would have been a huge blow against racism? DT ran a blatantly racist campaign, did you guys think that it would turn off everybody? If you did, then you couldn’t possibly believe that the USA is a racist nation. DT won because racism appeals to a substantial number of people. You need to explain what kept them at bay during the last eight years and what emboldened them this year.”
Keep writing bs as usual.
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@gro jo
“Where do you get the absurd notion that I gave a damn about HRC’s fate?”
Probably the same place you get the “absurd notion” of any “devotion” to Trump.
Now run along. You don’t want to be late for your next protest.
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Run along and fetch Donald’s slippers.
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@ resw
Deleted comment that made a personal remark about Solitaire.
In case you forgot:
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@abagond
I guess when you write an article about white women’s tears, it’s tough to come to grips with the fact that you actually wipe them.
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@gro jo
That crosscut.com link was interesting. I was able to locate two massage parlors in my area. Not too surprised, lots of young tech workers around with lots of disposable cash.
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Goody, now you can monitor them to see if Kiwi, the Asian women liberator, shows up to lead the protest to shut them down.
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@LOM
Not sure how saying “big red Irish nose” is racist.
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“Not sure how saying “big red Irish nose” is racist.”
@Sharina
Probably because “big BLACK irish nose” is the preferred language,.. as some of the irish people erroneously believe that they somehow possess *enhanced melanin.* …which in their minds wouldn’t be racist. lol … go figure.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
He says YOUR big red Irish nose. That is not attributing a physical characteristic to an entire group. It is attributing it to YOU.
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“Well, then, why not just say “your big red nose” and leave it at that?”
Because you’re ALWAYS making most everything about “the irish.” He was only accommodating your own precedent! I notice that you have no problem with “big red” …
When your name is LoM you attempt to make most descriptions and critiques about racial victim-hood (as an irish person). That’s your primary job!
I was beginning to think you that you might be losing your comedic abilities. Silly me for thinking that, I should have known better! lol
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@Fan…
Thank you!!! He is always claiming to be Irish.
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“None of the uses come from me.”
Only because you’re trying really hard to win a bet you have (or had) with Solitaire. Even so, I have to admit I’m a mite bit wee impressed with you doing what’s (for you) next to impossible.
Still, you have a long uphill virtually impossible road to climb toward becoming a legitimate anti-racist ally. That excursion takes a life long commitment. Not a week. I won’t be holding my breath.
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In regards to these massage parlours; wouldn’t the Palm sisters be cheaper?
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You should be texting with “Elizabeth.”
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