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The Asian Supremacy argument

SAT-math-by-race-ethnicity

The Asian Supremacy argument, as I call it, says that Asians are naturally better than White people and everyone else: Asians have higher IQs, lower crime rates, lower illegitimacy rates, lower divorce rates, they work harder, and so on. Studies show that men of all races think Asian women are the most beautiful. On top of that, Asians make up 61% of the world – the demographic majority.

screen-shot-2012-04-03-at-4-21-42-pm

Therefore:

  1. Norms: Asians should be the norm against which everyone else is judged. We should all want to be like Asians and copy them.
  2. IQ tests: Asians should design the IQ tests by which the world is measured.
  3. Regime change: Asian governments should overthrow the governments of non-Asian countries for their own good, carpet-bombing them or sending in drones if necessary. Asians know best.
  4. Media: We should get all of our ideas about other races and the world in general from Asian media.
  5. World history and world news should be mainly Asian history and Asian news. Others need appear only as tokens or contributors to Asian well-being.
  6. Hollywood films, which are seen worldwide, should have mostly Asian heroes. They should be Asian even in cases where the original character was non-Asian, because that is what sells! For the same reason, they should make feel-good Asian Saviour films where a nice Asian person saves helpless White people. It is not racist, it is just business.
  7. Fashion models should be mainly Asian.
  8. Meritocracy: Asian Americans should hold most of the top positions in US society: business, banking, government, media, education, etc. It will be better for everyone. Whites who do not like it can go back to Europe.
  9. The Asian quota at top US universities should end, though maybe some non-Asians can be admitted for the sake of “diversity” so that Asian students can be more well-rounded.
  10. Denigration: Non-Asian people should be looked down on, feared, laughed at, stereotyped, if not hated, shot, locked up or wiped out.
  11. Murder and genocide: If Asians should kill or wipe out Whites, it is not a big deal: Whites kill each other all the time. Look at Hitler and Stalin and all those creepy White American serial killers!

Etc.

Almost no White person seriously makes this sort of argument – even though it follows from the “facts” and style of reasoning that White racists themselves use all the time. That is because deep down racism is not about fact but feeling.

If anti-Black racism came from IQ tests or crime statistics or affirmative action or Black pathologies or ill-mannered Black people, Whites would be racist against themselves! Because all those arguments can be used against them too.

Whites will admit to some of the “facts” about “Asians” (it helps to hide their anti-Black racism from themselves), but rarely if ever will they draw conclusions like those above. That would defeat the whole purpose of racism: feeling good about being White in a White supremacist world.

– Abagond, 2016.

See also:

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756 Responses

  1. Studies show that men of all races find Asian women the ‘most beautiful’? Hardly, one cannot state something without several resources to back it up. Actually, the men in my family find Black women the most beautiful…and I have dated White, Black & Hispanic men who did not like Asian women. You cannot go by most studies because there is always a flaw in them somewhere. Peace.

    Liked by 3 people


  2. Personally, I think it’s quite difficult to point towards any group of people and honestly say: this group or that group is supreme to all other groups. Reason being, no group of people’s history run parallel to another group or race of people. Currently, the variables are too vast, too shifting or too inconsistent to give us the answer regarding who is supreme.

    For example, there are some groups who’ve never experienced being shuffled from vessel to vessel (slavery) or held in a land not of your own specifically for hard bondage for over a thousand years.

    Good post Abagond!

    Liked by 2 people


  3. Interesting post and point. Both of my kids have been high performers in math and science, which has put them in a school setting where a substantial percentage of their classmates have been Asian, way higher percentage than the overall population of our area. We see the same demographic shift at the final rounds of the big regional classical piano competitions. What I have seen is that Asian kids excel in these areas because of relentless ass-kicking by their parents, the so-called “Tiger Mom” phenomenon.

    Incidentally, continental African parents do the same thing. The couple of times in recent years we have seen in the news a report of a high school student admitted to all 8 Ivies, it has generally been the kid of continental African parents. You generally don’t see this broken out in graphs like the one in this post because the sample size is statistically small. At a personal level, I had a buddy from Ghana who, about 25 years ago, finished his PhD in nuclear physics. His son (whose outdooring ceremony I attended) graduated from Stanford a couple of years ago.

    I read somewhere once that African American women married to Caucasian men tend to also be Tiger Moms. If you ask my kids, they would likely agree.

    Another anecdote. My daughter related the following about something that occurred in the group of Asian-American students that she studies and socializes with. One of the boys became the boyfriend of one of the girls. Keep in mind these two are both in AP everything, near the top of their class in everything, etc. When the boy’s mother heard about it through the grapevine, she called her son to the carpet: “No dating in high school. Period.” Sort of the Desi version of Mickey growling at Rocky: “Women weaken legs!”

    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U8_LX7ccC4)

    Amy Chua, author of the famous “Tiger Mom” book and self-described Tiger Mom, argues that this alone is an element of a superior culture. This kind of parenting creates opportunities for admission to elite universities and professional track educations like engineering or med school.

    However, we all know that the world is at least as much about who you know as what you know. On average it is more likely that a white kid will grow up with parental connections in high places. Our family has seen several examples of white boys who slide easily into high executive track careers immediately after college because mom or dad greased the skids for them. These positions of lucre and power typically don’t require professional skills, just an imperious demeanor and a knack for hanging onto a dollar (people forget that profitability can be created by growing revenue or by side-stepping or otherwise deferring expenses — my experience is that rich people got that way largely via the latter).

    Since Asian parents hold fewer of these positions, you see less of this with Asian kids generally. However, if you go to a large, well-established Chinatown like that in San Francisco, you will find an economy where Asian scions enjoy an even more overt and unvarnished privilege of position that one sees generally.

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  4. Pure BS; I married into a professional Asian family. Asians on the whole work exceptionally hard at everything they do which accounts for their supposed ‘superiority.’ As a retired educator with 32 years on the job experience I can attest that the key to ‘superiority’ can be summed up in three words; work, work, work. Even my own large extended family caution me to not work so hard (I’m a workaholic.). I’m not Asian but BLACK! We’re all equal people.

    Like


  5. I’ve always believed that the “Asian supremacy argument” was created by the white supremacists to defend their “black/African inferiority argument” as if to say,

    “See, we’re not racist, and the way we view Asian people proves it. It’s not our fault that blacks perform on an inferior level (even though it is because we created that “inferiority”).”

    I believe this “argument” was created SOLELY to make black and brown people–the biggest victims of white supremacy” — feel inferior since overall we are darker in complexion than many Asians.

    This argument certainly hasn’t diminished the existence of white supremacy or white racism against Asians by whites, which is more common than some might believe.

    The proof that his is a specious and deceptive method of practicing white supremacy is white people DO NOT treat Asians like they’re superior to whites.

    1. Asians are still “yellow people,” and “Chinks” and “people of color.”

    2. Asian couples are NEVER portrayed as the most socially desirable couples in white movies and TV shows. In fact, they don’t even exist.

    3. Asian women are seldom if ever lifted above the white female in movies and televisions as the most beautiful or desirable women (I’ve NEVER seen this happen)

    4. Many allegedly “Asian” nations are still colonized by European nations, like South Korea, Japan, the Philippines, Vietnam, etc.

    5. Asians were horribly stereotyped in Hollywood films of the past. Now, they practically invisible.

    6. There are still many private white clubs and golf courses where Asians are not allowed to join or play on.

    7. the fact that this “argument” exists is a stereotype, and in a white supremacy system, that means the targets are never equals to whites

    8. White people still elevate other white people above all Asians when it comes to the best paying jobs and positions of power and political offices. If whites believed Asians were superior, they would put them in charge of everything.

    9. That fact that this stereotype even exists while at the same time white people are allowed to be just people without stereotypes (aka ‘human’) is proof enough.

    Yes, there are cultural differences between Asians and other groups. So what? At the end of the day we are ALL still held hostage by the global system of white supremacy. Just ask the Japanese who can’t force the US military bases to leave Japan and can’t stop new bases from being built in their country.

    When it comes to blacks and Asians — to compare a people whose identity and nation and culture have been intact for over a THOUSAND YEARS and is still INTACT

    with a people who were enslaved for 500 YEARS and in the process were ROBBED of their identity, culture, nation, land, religion, and ability to govern their own lives under their own national banner, flag, and land

    is just plain STUPID.

    Especially when those same (black) people are still under attack by white supremacists who seem to devote the majority of their time and energies to making sure black people stay inferior via inferior living environments, education, healthcare, food quality, water quality, endless promotion of destructive programming and stereotyping via the white mainstream media (TV and films and music they control), deliberate drug infestations,m police terror tactics, and excessive and unjust incarcerations,

    Bottom line, the “Asian argument” was created for blacks and browns, not for other white people.

    I would strongly advise all black and brown people to do what we should ALWAYS do whenever this kind of propaganda is throw at us like a handful of you know what

    DON’T BUY INTO IT!

    Liked by 7 people


  6. I wonder how they select the individuals that the test for the IQ scores. Do they select Asian individuals from all over Asia or do they select those individuals that are in the United States and in the major educational institutions of the world. Where do they find subjects that they test for the various other groups of individuals.

    It is my understanding that many Asians that fail the grade structures are removed from school and relegated to the farms and work fields. The same applies in Europe and in many other parts of the world.

    One wonders if they are comparing apples and shoes!

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  7. Here We go again trying to fit into a box that is created by someone else. If Asians are that smart have them explain the building of The Pyramids that are all over the world. That took math to do. Because of cultures being halt and destroyed by outsiders no one has proven anything.

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  8. @Trojan Pam:
    Yes, we have to keep in mind who created the statistics and the criteria for them. White people create nothing that is not eventually to the benefit of their ego.

    Liked by 5 people


  9. on Thu 12 May 2016 at 17:17:35 TeddyBearDaddy

    For those of you that don’t know that it is parody. I don’t know what to say. Look at the points of who actually imposes their superiority. Have a nice day.

    Like


  10. Some of you clearly clearly didn’t get what Abagond was getting at and some of you NAILED IT! I don’t need to add my two cents because Trojan Pam absolutely slayed it. [mic drop]

    Liked by 2 people


  11. Lots of Whites (and some non-White people) have used Asians and people of Asian descent to downplay anti-Black racism and anti-immigration against Mexicans and others south of the U.S. border.

    Comments from takfam07 (a Japanese-American who resides in Honolulu, Hawaii):

    “Asian-Americans faced HEAVY discrimination throughout most of the 20th century – from unfair immigration laws, hiring, financial institutions, college admissions, unconstitutional internment and property confiscation, etc. But we’ve prevailed. In a capitalist society of laws, Asians will always succeed. And without raising a ruckus. East Asia’s phenomenal rise reflects their DESIRE to be more. For blacks, Asians can provide the template for ‘nonwhite success’.”

    – How Egypt Became White (YouTube) (2014 comment)

    “What if the entire black community adopted the EXACT SAME VALUES AND BEHAVIORS as Americans of Japanese, Chinese and Korean ancestry? Would that improve the black community’s well-being over time? If you think, Yes, the Steel [a White racist commenter] is right. If you think No, then you’re saying that white racism truly accounts for black failures in America – no matter what blacks do.”

    – The Religion of Racism (YouTube) (2011 comment)

    “Black African countries are now independent and removed from their colonial governments, but have basically all gotten destab ilized, poorer, and lower on the HDI – Human Development Index – since white flight from their countries. Crumbling infrastructures, tribal warfare, violence, disease, reliance on foreign aid. Histories of prior oppression have left a psychological damage on blacks worldwide. Perhaps blacks could hold a global summit to address these issues.”

    – The Religion of Racism (YouTube) (2012 comment)

    “Somebody needs to be at the bottom [of the societal ladder]. East Asians in America used to be, trust me! My grandmothers were servants in rich white people’s homes. My grandfathers were can-cutters on sugar plantations. They only had grade school educations. BOTTOM. So they worked hard, saved every last penny, invested wisely, sent ALL their kids to college. American Dream – 70 years later, they all died millionaires. They decided they would not stay on the bottom, and they didn’t.”

    – The Religion of Racism (YouTube) (2012 comment)

    “All I know is that when Commodore Perry forced Japan’s door open to the West in 1853, Japan knew it had to play ball or get reamed [colonized, probably]. So they decided to go from a closed-system, medieval, agrarian-based feudal monarchy to a Western-style, industrialized nation. In a few decades they became the world’s first non-white superpower of the modern era. Japanese are pragmatic and resourceful. Their strength is cultural cohesion, based on honor, pride and discipline.”

    – The Religion of Racism (YouTube) (2012 comment)

    “@ arronnov – You’re right about that. And Japan (like Germany) is ashamed today of their imperial cruelty to their neighbors – you know they are, you can feel it. And their response is to conceal history, like it didn’t happen. And yes, karma came back around. Today, both Japan and Germany are rich, enlightened [for the most part] and benign, helping the rest of the world. For me, my direct Japanese ancestors were already plantation labor in America by the time of Imperial Japan and WWII.”

    – The Religion of Racism (YouTube) (2012 comment)

    “The objective fact is that the ancient Egyptians were a Caucasoid people. And this aligns with the fact that the Caucasian race [which includes Europeans, North Africans, Arabs, Jews, most East Indians, etc] has collectively been the most advanced race to date. Mongoloids historically have been a fairly close second, and in fact are coming up strong as we speak – they’re smart and long-term-thinking mofos, too. In fact, some Mongoloid groups have always been more advanced than some Caucasian groups. But Negroids and Australoids remained deeply primitive while these these other two races [Caucasoids and Mongoloids] built impressive, flourishing civilizations.”

    – How Egypt Became White (YouTube) (2013 comment)

    “Is it genetic? Let’s fact it, it might be. But if so, please Negroes – don’t take it personally! If it IS genetic, it’s simply because Negroids and Australoids are equatorial, tropical people, and therefore did not need to develop the cognitive capacity and temperament that eventually led to civilizational complexity.”

    – How Egypt Became White (YouTube) (2013 comment)

    “Over 70k + years of separate evolutionary racial development, Caucasoids and Mongoloids faced more challenging environments than Negroids and Australoids, so BY NECESSITY they developed the advanced the visuospatial capacity and long-term conservative thinking that was required for survival. In contrast, Negroids and Australoids could live simpler, tribal lives because it was sufficient to meet the survival demands in THEIR environments. This is why Negroids retained more ‘archaic physical’ traits like speed, fast-twitch strength, prognathic faces, wide nostrils, etc, but perhaps less reliance on intellect. This maybe why so many blacks seem more impulsive, churlish, and less concerned with the consequences of actions. They had greater luxury of ‘living for the moment,’ so the ‘n_gg_s’ were not weeded out of their gene pool, as was the case for Caucasoids and Mongoloids. Hence all the crime, imprisonment, welfare, poverty, dilapidated living conditions, illegitimacy stats, etc.”

    – How Egypt Became White (YouTube) (2013 comment)

    “The upside of innate black strengths are manifest in fantastic, brilliant achievements in sports, music, dancing, and other primarily physical endeavors. And this is not a backhanded compliment. I you ask me, Negroid Jimi Hendrix’s ‘Little Wings’ is as impressive a structural artistic as Caucasoids Egypt’s Temple of Osiris.”

    – How Egypt Became White (YouTube) (2013 comment)

    “The downside of impulsiveness and instant gratification is that blacks struggle to compete with Caucasoids and Mongoloids in an advanced societal setting or at least to maintain the same civilizational standard, because the latter two might simply be better adapted for abstract thinking, cooperative planning and long-term gain.”

    – How Egypt Became White (YouTube) (2013 comment)

    “But even if so, remember: these are the ‘per capita’ averages only. Because there are smart and dumb people of every race. There are genius blacks, there are blacks with honor and integrity and selfishness, too. Maybe not as many per capita, but obviously they exist. Even if most lack the courage to publicly decry black cultural dysfunctionality. Perhaps the IQ ‘Bell Curve’ determines overall racial performance. However, I still strongly feel that a race can overcome its inherent limitations through sheer vision, will, honor, hard work and sacrifice.”

    – How Egypt Became White (YouTube) (2013 comment)

    Fellow commenters, the polarizing takfam07 does NOT speak for the Asian-American community. He speaks for anti-Black racists who downplay white racism.

    Liked by 2 people


  12. The history of SE Asians and Africans are entirely different. Asians never become the face of slavery. They never their culture stripped from them. They all enjoy relatively stable homelands. The Korean has surging South Korea, the Japanese have Japan the Chinese have China. American citizens of these nations have a connection with their homelands they speak their native tongue and reap the benefits of cultural capital.

    African Americans have been taught to despise Africa and believe that it is dysfunctional and to shun any attempts to build. We do this at our own peril. Nigeria is coming up, Rwanda is coming up, Ghana is coming up, Kenya is coming up, Angola is coming up. Within a century the Africans (in particular Nigeria) will be the 3rd most populated region behind China and India. That’s a lot of labor potential.

    It only takes a few generation to go from 3rd World to running things. Europe was no more advanced in the 1300s than the Mali and Songhai Empires. A couple of hundred years later things have changed drastically.

    These next few generations will the last that will experience European hegemony.

    Liked by 1 person


  13. on Thu 12 May 2016 at 20:55:44 TeddyBearDaddy

    @hmurchison

    Not true at all. Many of the lands that are now China and in South East Asia Kampuchea (Cambodia) Empire had taken slaves to build their huge temples. I should know because my family history can trace back to a faction of these slaves.

    Like


  14. Eeeew who only got a 580 on the old sat math? O sorry a lot of ppl. I got 680 math 720 verbal. Oh well. Not on your chart.

    Liked by 1 person


  15. @hmurchison

    “American citizens of these nations have a connection with their homelands they speak their native tongue and reap the benefits of cultural capital.”

    This statement is only true of some Asian Americans, not all. The more generations a family has been in the U.S., the less likely any of this is to be true. Among immigrants, there is a wide variance as to the degree of economic and other ties maintained with the home country. Refugees may not even manage to keep in contact with their family members.

    It also plays into the perpetual foreigner stereotype: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/10/02/the-perpetual-foreigner-stereotype/

    Like


  16. Unfortunately, it’s not about who is on top, but who is on the bottom.

    Liked by 1 person


  17. The Asians work hard, so we should all follow their example, Jesus Christ what the hell has happened to your dignity? I’m starting to lose all respect for black Americans except when it comes to commerce (gimme your money) and sex (Oakland Booty!) Its the New Tens people. Mexicans are the New Nigras, and Asians are the New Jews.

    Just like the Old Jews, the Asians are simply trading political power for economic power and financial security. But, lacking the inroads that the Jews made in the areas of Mergers and Acquisitions, Think Tanks, hedge funds and maor financial institutions, they will end up even weaker than the Jews. This is the opposite of black America, where they hold great politial power, but seem dis-inclined to use it to achieve economic power, mainly due to manipulation by political personalities (Obama, Melissa Perry, Cornell West) and institutional trickery by liberals. Of course, there are blacks, no, “New Blacks”, that would gladly hand over political power for economic gains, not realizing that without the former, you cannot keep the latter.

    The “Asians” (a mythical group created by census takers) will continue to do the arbitrage grunt-work, the VHDL design work, the OpenMP prallel programming optimizations, maybe some legal work, and so on. But they will never get to what matters – real political power that will protect them from the type of economic exploitation that is so common to high skill/STEM tpe worker. Getting laid off with no warning during the latest Aerospace downsizing, screwed out of cash during the IPO, getting treated like a slave because you’re on a H1B visa etc. Te real big oke is that they will never be allowed to the heights that the Old Jews reached. No Secretary of State for you!

    Oh and that Model Minority thing? Its a lie.

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  18. @V8

    700/700. 1400 team!

    Liked by 1 person


  19. @Trojan Pam

    You knocked it out of the park!

    “…(black) people are still under attack by white supremacists who seem to devote the majority of their time and energies to making sure black people stay inferior via inferior living environments, education, healthcare, food quality, water quality, endless promotion of destructive programming and stereotyping via the white mainstream media (TV and films and music they control), deliberate drug infestations,m police terror tactics, and excessive and unjust incarcerations…”

    I wonder how well Asian Americans would fare if they had to face the daily, withering assault from an entire system that Black folk face?

    What if everything Asian Americans attempt to build is systematically torn down by White Supremacists and their agents. Then the failure of the attempt is publicly attributed to them being “lazy”, “stupid” or “immoral”? Would hard work alone be enough?

    What if Asian American leaders were shot, poisoned, disappeared, exiled or imprisoned for decades?

    What if Asian American communities had to operate with a deficit of working age men because of mass imprisonment and police lynching?

    Liked by 2 people


  20. @hmurchison

    “Nigeria is coming up, Rwanda is coming up, Ghana is coming up, Kenya is coming up, Angola is coming up.”

    This brings to mind a comment on the Open Thread recently by a Kenyan national (?), villagewriter. This is a bit of what she/he had to say about the business climate in Kenya today:

    “[South] Asians owned many businesses just after independence but they have been facing more competition from black business owners in the last 20 years. It is happening so fast that some Indian families have started looking for public sector jobs. Black people are leaving those jobs and starting businesses all over the country.”

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/open-thread/#comment-314126

    Personally, when I read entreprenurial blogs and websites, Africans from Nigeria and Kenya, in particular, are always well represented in the comment sections. They are serious and they are surging ahead. It is good to see.

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  21. @ lkeke35

    absolutely. Anything that is promoted in a white supremacy, be it “racial superiority” dogma, or black people getting high positions, awards and movie roles — will ALWAYS support white supremacy in one form or another.

    FYI — my comments were not intended to demean Asian people, but I do not believe they or ANY group could have overcome what blacks in america have experienced and not been catastrophically damaged.

    The irony is black people are so resilient that the system is afraid to let up its efforts. Black people are so ingenious in those areas we are allowed to compete that people all over the world mimic us.

    Black people are so inspired that without our courage and determination there would be NO CIVIL RIGHTS for any non-white group, including Asians, and that includes admissions to universities, and the ability to eat at any restaurant or book a room at any hotel. WE are the ones who fought and died so that ALL non-white people would benefit. ,

    It wasn’t so long ago that Asians were segregated into “Chinatowns” all over america,(and still are to a degree) an not so long ago that Asians were not allowed to live in states like Tennessee.

    In China, there is a massive amount of evidence that blacks existed there long before white supremacy was a thought bubble. I suggest all check out the article and the youtube video “When Blacks Ruled Asia”

    My biggest concern regarding black inferiority is so many black people believe it must be true. It’s like a case of the Wizard of Oz. It only exists because people have been taught it exists, but if you pull that curtain back, all you’ll see is a old white man pulling levers and making a lot of noise.

    there is POWER in truth. There is POWER in blackness and in our melanated genetics. There is NOTHING more superior than the original version, and if we understood that we would NEVER worship white or light skin and we would NEVER fall for the lie of black inferiority.

    They know who we are and they know that we do not know. That’s why they will do everything in their power to deceive us and hide the truth.

    (sorry about the long post)

    Liked by 4 people


  22. @ Afrofem

    I agree, and a classic example is “Black Wall Street.” For those who are not familiar with the story, I suggest you google it.

    Just imagine if Black Wall Street had not been burned to the ground by jealous whites? What could it have become almost 100 years later?

    Would there be “Black Wall Streets” all over america? Due to integrating into a black hating society and the damage to our collective self-esteem, black people seem to have lost faith in ourselves to such a disastrous degree that we bewe cannot survive or even exist outside the white system.

    This, to me, is the biggest crime of all that has been committed against us.

    Like


  23. correction:

    Due to integrating into a black hating, white supremacist society and the resulting damage to our collective self-esteem, black people seem to have lost faith in ourselves to such a disastrous degree that we believe we cannot survive or even exist outside the white system.

    This, to me, is the biggest crime of all that has been committed against us.

    Liked by 1 person


  24. do let’s say indians (ie south asians) really ally themselves with china and ‘southeast asia’ in regards to being even classified as ‘asian’ as a whole,

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  25. @ Trojan Pam

    Well said! I agree: deep down Whites do not believe Asians are better than they are; that the model minority stereotype, as a stereotype, is a contradiction in terms; that it is driven more by anti-Black racism than any sort of sincere admiration of Asians.

    Liked by 3 people


  26. @ Allen Shaw

    The whole Asian IQ thing is as cooked up and fake as the African IQ thing. As far as I know there has never been any thorough, across-the-board testing of Asians. The numbers you see are not representative at all. And some of them are just plain made up.

    In the 1960s and before, Asian American IQ and SAT scores were lower than Whites. Now they are higher. But in between came the Asian brain drain.

    Liked by 1 person


  27. @Trojan Pam

    “The irony is black people are so resilient that the system is afraid to let up its efforts. “

    Yeah!

    For decades, the system was content to merely shortchange Black community schools and skimp on municipal services to Black neighborhoods.

    Now the system is closing schools and firing teachers in in Philadelphia, Chicago, Memphis and Atlanta.

    Black communitiy members in Detroit and Baltimore are facing wholesale water shut-offs in an effort to drive Black residents from those cities.

    Glen Ford, editor of Black Agenda Report describes the end game of Black community dispersal promoted by writers like Malcom Gladwell like this:

    “…Malcolm Gladwell, a biracial Canadian who made his bones promoting the hyper-aggressive “broken windows” police strategy, concludes that involuntary displacement is a good thing for people who are stuck in “bad” neighborhoods or bad cities where poverty is high and chances for upward mobility are low. Since every heavily Black city in the country fits that description, the logic is that Black people should be dispersed to the four winds and prevented from forming concentrated populations…the forced exodus of Katrina should be replicated as public policy, for the good of both the purposely displaced and society as a whole.”

    http://www.blackagendareport.com/new_yorker_katrina_logic_of_genocide

    The election of Obama really deranged the system. They are trying to ensure that no other Black child grows up to aspire to the highest office in the land—and succeed.

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  28. Interesting. Black flight. But get in where people won’t let u fit in.

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  29. Delete /Ignore above. Black flight probably won’t work like that. People with low incomes can’t just move to a new city. Especially when low income housing plans are vigorously opposed by the same liberals that claim to support the cause of poor people.

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  30. @satanforce

    The point is involuntary dispersal predicated on some form of disaster like Katrina.

    The school closings and water shut-offs, etc. are weakening tactics. A disaster then provides the system with a coup de grace opportunity.

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  31. Yes, I understand that part, but I doubt it’s that simple. There may also be the creation of “sacrifices zones”, where essential services are simply ignored, and allowed to deteriorate. There is also the use of network flow algorithms – the actual com Sci ones, to move people around as desired. Think a more evolved version of South Africa labour migration.

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  32. I hope all the readers realized that this article was merely satire intended to highlight the hypocrisy of White supremacy and its factual self-contradictions.

    Another takeaway I got from this post is that the only reason White racist thinking has the immense influence and sway over people that we see in America is because White people have the power to push stereotypes.

    This is why an intelligent White man is seen as a respectable, natural leader but an intelligent Asian man is just an ugly, nerdy ch#nk with a small penis.

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  33. @ abagond

    I agree. Whites do not believe Asians are better than they are and behind it, like you said, is the attempt to justify anti-Black racism. White supremacists excel at creating “gang fights” –

    Pitting non-white groups against each other in any way possible

    browns against blacks
    yellow against black and brown
    black male against black female
    black female against black male
    middle-class blacks and browns against poor blacks and browns

    And then they stand back and watch the confusion of people who have yet to understand they ALL HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM

    white supremacy

    This is something Neely Fuller, Jr. talks about (I suggest people look him up on youtube)

    Why do people think they are plotting and planning to reduce non-white populations all over the planet?

    Because once black and brown and red and yellow wrap our heads around the biggest con game on the planet — white supremacy — and get our collective sanity back

    GAME OVER

    Like


  34. @ Afrofem

    Good points about education and dislocation.

    Hurricane Katrina was used (and some believe the levies were deliberately breached so the Lower Ninth Ward would flood) to justify the FORCED dislocation of blacks from New Orleans. Some blacks had land and homes they had owned for generations. All of it wiped out DELIBERATELY. The best way to keep people from developing wealth is to keep them moving.

    They are dislocating black people all over the nation under the guise of “gentrification” which is just another tactic of white supremacy to keep black areas “unstable”

    Everything that happens in “politics” happens deliberately — according to former President Roosevelt– and I wholeheartedly agree.

    Keep in mind that the white supremacists orchestrated the election of Obama. Stop a moment and consider what that means.

    Like


  35. You know I have some personal beef with Asians as some of the biggest opposition to my trying to attain more knowledge in the Information Technology were Asian Men.

    Many Asian men that I have come across, are not only resistant, but downright damn HOSTILE at the thought of a black man getting into technology. Their whole self-esteem VESTED in being the smartest of all other races.

    However they can’t take what they dish out at all. They will be WICKED towards a black person. However the minute a white person discriminates against them, they are ready to slit their own wrists.

    They’re always in their groups.
    They’re never more than arms length away from each other.
    They never interact with anyone who is not Asian.

    It’s almost like they’re robots.

    And if we think white supremacy is rough. We ain’t see nothing if these take over.

    In China they’d stomp all over a black person if they even dared try and open a small fish stall, if that stall out did the locals. Yet they’re all over Africa buying up everything.

    So Africans better recognize fast, before it’s too late, to stop the immigration of Asians to their Continent. Or they are going to end up being OPPRESSED in their own land all over again.

    The Asian menace must be resisted. We cannot allow them any more control over our lives.

    Liked by 2 people


  36. @satanforce

    Good point. It won’t be easy. There will be increased resistance to the plan as more people become aware of the end game.

    Yet, the people behind the plan have lots of time, money and influence. They have created institutions to train their chosen successors to carry out their plan. Those resources don’t guarantee completion, but they sure help.

    “Think a more evolved version of South Africa labour migration.”

    Hmmm! Very dystopian.

    Like


  37. @Trojan Pam

    “Keep in mind that the white supremacists orchestrated the election of Obama. Stop a moment and consider what that means.”

    I have.

    I shared some thoughts about Obama earlier this year:

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/02/08/maya-angelou-2/#comment-308642

    Like


  38. china? wants their own implementation of the tcp/ip stack, and icann/ieee/iso etc. aint havin it, it’s political, also the very public back and forth hacking allegations

    Liked by 1 person


  39. but that’s higher order, there is all kinds of people getting into technology, it seems just below healthcare, i work with a lot of black people in the telecom/computers industry, cable tv install etc. it needs to be a secular trans-class organization, obviously the free breakfast club comes to mind the usa is hurting bad economically, the unions have it seemingly under control to some degrees sorry this one is all over the place dont have much time

    Like


  40. i think they still have job corps for the kids they get microsoft certs, a+, network+ etc

    Like


  41. Tcp/ip has always been flawed. Ethernet not self-synchronozing, ip address allocation makes no sense. Jumbo frames, uhhh. But I’ll take it over any “Made in China ” solution any day.

    Like


  42. @satanforce

    “There may also be the creation of “sacrifices zones”, where essential services are simply ignored, and allowed to deteriorate.”

    We are pretty close to that situation in certain urban areas now. Philly, Baltimore and Detroit come to mind.

    This article shows how one small city in Michigan was literally left in the dark and what the Black residents are doing about it:

    http://midwestenergynews.com/2015/05/28/detroit-area-community-reclaims-its-streets-with-solar-power/

    Like


  43. @ TheHipHopRecord

    I believe you when you say you’ve been discriminated against by Asians. That’s wrong, and I’m sorry it happened to you.

    But this?

    “Their whole self-esteem VESTED in being the smartest of all other races.”

    “They’re always in their groups. They’re never more than arms length away from each other. They never interact with anyone who is not Asian. It’s almost like they’re robots.”

    That’s just blatant stereotyping. It’s biased, hurtful, and ugly.

    Like


  44. You have to see with him. He’s obviously damaged.

    Like


  45. on Sat 14 May 2016 at 02:00:34 TeddyBearDaddy

    @satanforce

    I know it’s a lie. Always has been.

    Like


  46. @TheHipHopRecords (@TheHipHopRecord),

    In the first half of your comment, it seems like you are discussing the interaction of Asian Americans and black Americans in the USA.

    In the 2nd half, it seems like you are referring to Africans in China and Mainland PRC Chinese in Africa.

    Do you liken these two phenomena with each other?

    Like


  47. @ TheHipHopRecords

    The behavior you see from Asians towards Blacks in technology can be likened to the behavior you see from Blacks towards Asians in sports. The vigor with which Blacks jumped on and cut down Jeremy Lin when he became a sensation comes to mind.

    @ Solitaire @ jefe

    I was more concerned by TheHipHopRecords’s use of the Yellow Peril stereotype.

    They’re always in their groups.

    It’s almost like they’re robots.

    We ain’t see nothing if these take over.

    The Asian menace must be resisted.

    Notice that he gives Whites, his current, non-hypothetical oppressors some benefit of the doubt but he does not extend that to Asians, his potential, hypothetical oppressors.

    He complains about others racially stereotyping him but refuses to examine his own stereotyping of other non-White races. I guess not everyone is up to walking the talk.

    Like


  48. When we
    – stereotype fellow citizens as despised “other”
    – Invoke Perpetual Foreigner stereotypes as a model for race relations
    – proffer “Yellow Peril” fears as a personal and national security imperative
    etc.

    then we are embracing tenets that clearly formed and still form the basis of White Supremacy as practised in the USA.

    Even if one rejects the white dictionary definitions of “racism” and replaces them with “white supremacy”, surely overtly embracing key white supremacy principles would be viewed as racist behaviour, even if performed by POC.

    Liked by 1 person


  49. Solitaire

    OK. Fair enough. I admit (Now reading back) It did come across a bit generalising about Asians people for sure. I was not speaking on all Asian people.

    Like


  50. Here, in South Africa, though, are disparate population groups of Asian descent who have varying degrees of antipathy towards Africans, some granted honorary white status: South Koreans, Chinese, Japanese and Taiwanese.The latter have an appalling track record in their treatment of South African Black people. The honorary whites did not lent support during apartheid, except to be included as whites, i.e. Chinese. ( I am not going to qualify my assertion with ‘not all’).

    Although Indians generally also have more than a disdainful attitude towards Africans( but were themselves treated horribly during apartheid) there are some from their ranks, admirable stalwart anti- apartheid activists, e.g. Dullah Omar, Jay Naidoo, Ahmed Kathtrada, Fatima Meer.

    Cape Malays mostly descendants from Indonesian slaves, are are different group and not classified as Asian. Phillipinos were classified under apartheid and banished to the bantustans as Black. Go figure.

    I have never thought of Taiwanese and Japanese (South Africans) as better or cleverer (or worse than), who generally look down and are contemptuous of people like me. Rather, they are people who were afforded the psychic freedom from total oppression and granted white privilege at the expense of Africans.

    I can’t really recall whites here of putting Asian descendants on an IQ pedestal to excuse their racism, in the way it is played out in the USA. In my interaction with whites they reserve a semblance of guarded ‘respect’ for Asians, i.e. East Asians, usually commenting on their work ethic, although the ‘but’ invariably arises. With the Japanese- the adjective,’cruel’ come to mind. Western Asians,i.e. Palestinians,on the other hand are differentiated as ‘dirty Arabs’ and ‘terrorists’ and white israelis as ‘civilized whites’, Indians as ‘sly’ and unscrupulous businessmen and well, Indonesians descendants as ‘faithful servants’. Cape Malay Muslims are a despised ‘other’ as they neither here nor there and fill a useful bulwark against Africans.

    Liked by 3 people


  51. ^^ excuse typos and omissions

    Like


  52. @ taotesan

    The honorary whites did not lent support during apartheid, except to be included as whites, i.e. Chinese. ( I am not going to qualify my assertion with ‘not all’).

    Patrick Soon-Shiong would like a word with you.

    Rather, they are people who were afforded the psychic freedom from total oppression and granted white privilege at the expense of Africans.

    The Yellow Peril stereotype is applied to East Asians in South Africa just as much as it is in other Western countries. That is about as far from White privilege and freedom from total oppression as one can get.

    Asians are not White and never will be. The historical patterns and current data show that they are not assimilating. As long as White supremacy espouses the idea that “different is bad”, “different must be kept down”, and “different must be crushed”, Asians will continue to be discriminated against by Whites.

    Liked by 1 person


  53. Both America and South Africa have had White presidents and Black presidents – but no Asian presidents, and yet Asians are seen as having attained greater status despite having nowhere near the amount of political power that Whites or Blacks have.

    Like


  54. @ TheHipHopRecords (@TheHipHopRecord)

    I ‘liked’ your comment because it touched on the right intuition of the Chinese presence in Africa.

    Kiwi, I have made it clear I do not want to have any exchange or discussion with you, no matter what intersection of commonality or difference we might have.

    Liked by 1 person


  55. @ taotesan

    I replied to your comment because it promotes a biased view of Asians that is not only racist, but counterfactual. If you wish to criticize others for practicing racism against you, you will have to learn to examine your own racial stereotyping of others.

    Like


  56. Had TheHipHopRecords’s rant about Asians been about any other race, his post most likely would have been condemned instead of being lauded by other Black commenters. Why is that?

    This is a clear case of how the Model Minority stereotype makes Asians into an acceptable target of racism. The thinking goes “Asians are not really minorities, so what is wrong if we stereotype them?” This kind of thinking boiled over with Chris Rock’s racist jokes about Asians at the Oscars.

    What’s more sad is that a thread intended by the author to criticize White supremacy ended up becoming a venue for people to spew their racially stereotyped thinking about Asians. So much for antiracism.

    Like


  57. I notice that there is a common view among Blacks that other races, especially Asians, are just trying to become White or kiss up to Whites. While there is some truth to that, Blacks are guilty of it, too, a fact that somehow always gets omitted. Worst of all, this type of thinking downplays and erases the journey and struggles that non-Black people of color have had to go through.

    I will never for the life of me understand why anyone would believe the Pearl Harbor attackers were trying to become White.

    Like


  58. @Kiwi

    Both America and South Africa have had White presidents and Black presidents – but no Asian presidents, and yet Asians are seen as having attained greater status despite having nowhere near the amount of political power that Whites or Blacks have.

    Political power is meaningless without financial power. When you control the economy. That’s what matters

    The behavior you see from Asians towards Blacks in technology can be likened to the behavior you see from Blacks towards Asians in sports. The vigor with which Blacks jumped on and cut down Jeremy Lin when he became a sensation comes to mind.

    The negative reaction that some black people have had to Lin is more about how he is described – EG- Smart (as opposed to dumb), selfless (as opposed to selfish)

    The conflict is between black people and mass media, not between black basketball fans and Jeremy Lin. I’m sure Lin has experienced some genuine reverse-racism in his basketball career. I feel also that if Lin played the same but were black, he’d be far less likely to be praised for his intelligence and selflessness. But Lin has plenty of fervent black fans,

    Also whether some can hit a three pointer is not as subjective as whether you think someone will be good as an I-T professional

    Look at the Peter Liang case. A lot of Asians (Not all) supported this a guy heavy. There are a lot of Asian (wannabe) white supremacists. They’re argument was “Well how come our guy (Peter Liang) got convicted when Darren Wilson didn’t and the white guy who killed Eric Garner. If they get away with killing blacks. We should too”

    And they’re mad because they got their Asian n*gga wake up call. They feel they didn’t get to practice white supremacy. That is : The privilege of killing black people and walking free.

    And that’s so disrespectful because a lot of Asians got over in the USA because of all the ass whoopings that black ppl got in the 60’s which kicked the door open for them to come (In large numbers) via the 1965 immigration act.

    The black community have also rode for the Asian community. The rise of the Chinese films in the 70’s, black supported them. All those Asian firms in black areas.

    Notice that he gives Whites, his current, non-hypothetical oppressors some benefit of the doubt but he does not extend that to Asians, his potential, hypothetical oppressors.

    I give whites benefit of the doubt ? Are you crazy ? My beef is always with white racism. I NEVER lose sight of that. Yes – Some can be racist to blacks…..but they learnt from the best.

    He complains about others racially stereotyping him but refuses to examine his own stereotyping of other non-White races. I guess not everyone is up to walking the talk.

    That’s because I’m racist myself. But I admit it.

    Liked by 4 people


  59. @TheHipHopRecords

    The black community have also rode for the Asian community. The rise of the Chinese films in the 70’s, black supported them.

    Do you mean those Martial Arts / Kung Fu films in the 1970s? Those were foreign films (mostly from HK and Taiwan). What do any of them have to do with “the Asian community” in the US? How does watching those films support those communities?

    The only Kung Fu themed production that had to do with the USA and produced in the USA that I can think of is the TV series, Kung Fu, which featured David Carradine in Yellowface. If anything, that was a slap in the face for the Asian community in the USA.

    Like


  60. @ TheHipHopRecords

    Political power is meaningless without financial power. When you control the economy. That’s what matters

    Financial power is also meaningless without political power. Just ask the victims of the Tulsa race riot or the Japanese American internment.

    The negative reaction that some black people have had to Lin is more about how he is described – EG- Smart (as opposed to dumb), selfless (as opposed to selfish)

    No, I was referring to Black sports commentators pulling their eyes into slants on television when talking about Lin or tweeting about his penis being small, both of which are racist insults of Asians.

    And they’re mad because they got their Asian n*gga wake up call. They feel they didn’t get to practice white supremacy. That is : The privilege of killing black people and walking free.

    If it makes you feel better, Darren Ilardi, a Black cop, got to kill an Asian and walk free without trial and not a peep came from the Black community. But I don’t suppose you think that makes Blacks privileged.

    I give whites benefit of the doubt ?

    More than you do for Asians. To you, Whites are individuals but Asians are a faceless, inscrutable horde, as made clear by your racist stereotyping.

    That’s because I’m racist myself. But I admit it.

    Same here. Anyone of any race who’s lived long enough in America (or in your case, the UK), has internalized racism to some degree, at some level. It’s up the individual what to make of it. You choose to leave it unexamined.

    @ jefe

    Do you mean those Martial Arts / Kung Fu films in the 1970s? Those were foreign films (mostly from HK and Taiwan). What do any of them have to do with “the Asian community” in the US? How does watching those films support those communities?

    I noticed that TheHipHopRecords was applying the Perpetual Foreigner stereotype yet again despite already being called out on it. Carl Douglas’s Kung Fu Fighting was just another exercise in racist stereotyping of Asians. Hardly a contribution to the Asian American community.

    Like


  61. @TheHipHopRecords

    “… a lot of Asians got over in the USA because of all the ass whoopings that black ppl got in the 60’s which kicked the door open for them to come (In large numbers) via the 1965 immigration act.”

    So true. That connection is often lost in the mists of time. Thank you for shining a light on the 1965 Immigration Act and African American involvement in opening the door to the US for millions of immigrants from Asia, Africa and Latin America. A lot of African immigrants and refugees in this country need a refresher course on that history, too.

    Also, THHR, since you are based in the UK, when you refer to “Asians” are you primarily describing the behaviors of South Asians (Indians, Pakistanis and Bangledeshis) or all Asian groups (there are many in the UK)?

    Liked by 1 person


  62. @taotesan

    Thank you for that ground level view on how national origin plays out in South Africa. I knew about the “honorary White” status for NE Asian descent people in SA.

    I’m still trying to figure out why Filipino’s were considered an out group like the indigenous people and banished to the Bantustans. Perhaps the Dutch/Southeast Asian colonial dynamic? Amazing!

    Like


  63. @ Afrofem

    Thank you for shining a light on the 1965 Immigration Act and African American involvement in opening the door to the US for millions of immigrants from Asia, Africa and Latin America.

    I didn’t feel like this needed mentioning when TheHipHopRecords brought it up, but it should be noted that Asians, Latinos, Natives, and even Jews all participated in the Civil Rights Movement alongside Blacks, another fact lost to the mists of time. At least for Asian Americans, much of the reason why this aspect of their history is erased or diminished is because of the Model Minority stereotype painting Asians as apolitical and apathetic when they have in fact been struggling for their rights ever since they first stepped foot in America.

    Like


  64. @Hip Hop Records

    I apologize that I assumed you were talking about the USA. If you were not, then I made a mistake.

    However, if you were referring to the UK, it appeared that you view Asians there as foreigners or even foreign invaders to the country, but not blacks. This is curious since both largely trace their origins either directly to Britain’s former colonies, or indirectly as forced, involuntary labour to one of their colonies.

    Then you jump back to the 1965 Immigration Act in the USA. So I am not sure when you talk about communities, where you are talking about.

    Like


  65. If we visualize the Asian Supremacy stereotype as a coin, its reverse side is the Yellow Peril or Asian Menace stereotype. I think the “yellow peril” stereotype is the one that most frightens Asian Americans, especially those who know their history, because white people use it to whip up hysteria and violence against Asian Americans. This stereotype was the root of the massacres of Chinese Americans in California, the internment of Japanese Americans, and the murder of Vincent Chin. Simply put, “yellow peril” is the Asian version of the “black brute” and “red savage” stereotypes, all used by whites to justify unwarranted violence against POC.

    Like


  66. @Afrofem

    That connection is often lost in the mists of time. Thank you for shining a light on the 1965 Immigration Act and African American involvement in opening the door to the US for millions of immigrants from Asia, Africa and Latin America.

    I don’t think that connection had ever been lost. Most scholars of that period do recognize a connection between the US civil rights movement and the revision to the immigration laws in the 1960s. I certainly recognize that connection as well.

    However, at the same time, we should not imagine connections that were not there or imagine effects (e.g., “Opening the door”) that are not direct consequences of that movement.

    For one, whereas the black civil rights movement was not launched for the express purpose to change the immigration laws, any effect was certainly indirect. It would be disingenuous or at least an exaggeration to term it as “African Americans involved in opening the door” for millions of immigrants to the US.

    Next,
    – immigration from the Western Hemisphere (ie, Canada, Latin America and the Caribbean) prior to 1965 was not subject to quotas (unless the would be immigrant was of Asian descent up to the 1940s). The growth in immigration from those regions was not directly due to the change in the immigration laws (ie, they did not “open the door” to immigration from those regions).
    – Although the civil rights movement did have an indirect effect, the much bigger factor was pressure from overseas, ie, the USA, as leader of the “free world” in the midst of the Cold War, still held such racist immigration policies, esp. re: Asians.
    – Asians, who had already suffered for many many decades of split families, had been fighting all along for revision to immigration and naturalization and citizenship laws, well before the civil rights movement took off. In fact, the revision in the immigration laws that redirected focus on family reunification was probably more important to the majority of Asians already in the USA than the issue of opening more slots for other categories of new immigrants (who did not already have close family in the USA).
    – Prior to the 1920s, Africans did not have strict quotas assigned on their immigration. And persons of African descent or origin have never had any restriction on naturalization due to race since 1870.
    – Latinos, Jews, Asians, Native Americans also participated in the 1960s civil rights movement. It was not strictly a black thing.
    – Many groups had been fighting for civil rights for a long long time, well before the 1950s-60s civil rights movement. They continued to fight for it afterwards. It would be simply wrong to suggest that other groups just woke up and started fighting for their civil rights only in response to the 1955-1968 civil rights movement. If anything, the Wong Kim Ark v. US (1898) SCOTUS ruling which ensured that children of immigrants or even children of legal visitors to the USA would be US citizens under jus soli had more impact on US citizenship than the 1960s civil rights movement. We definitely need refresher courses on that.

    Like


  67. @solitaire,

    As you mentioned in the other thread, we are in dire need of a post on Yellow Peril. It has been an enduring theme in US society and culture since at least the mid 1800s and it is never phrased that way or even discussed in our US history textbooks.

    I mentioned to Abagond over 3 years ago that that is the main factor that has triggered most of the anti-Asian violence in the USA for the past 165 years and it is still sitting on the edge ready to take off at any moment. When I see the current escalating standoff in the South China Sea, one of my great concerns is the impact that it could have to Americans of Asian descent in the USA. They will always be viewed as a threat to the American way of life, and all the tropes of Alien Invasions are a thinly veiled manifestation of this fear. If you look at Hollywood, it is what gets whites and blacks to team together to fight a common enemy.

    Yellow Peril also shows up in the problem of racial profiling for traitors and spies and other national security threats.

    I cannot imagine any Asian American NOT having been asked throughout their entire life which country they would support if the US and [relevant Asian country] got into a war. But I can imagine what the USA would do to them if that happened.

    It has been suggested as a topic for a post for Asian American Heritage month every year, but has never been done.

    Simply put, “yellow peril” is the Asian version of the “black brute” and “red savage” stereotypes, all used by whites to justify unwarranted violence against POC.

    That would be good topic for a follow up post to Yellow Peril, as there are already posts on the Black Brute and Red Savage stereotypes on this blog.

    Like


  68. on Sun 15 May 2016 at 00:22:30 Blade o'Grass

    As Food for Thought, I’d like to offer this week’s article from The Globalist, to the conversation. It’s by Sun Xi, a social responsibility investment analyst and independent commentary writer based in Singapore. It’s rather simplistic, but being Asian it sheds light on what young Asians are thinking about, and also shares his some points about the absence of a universal Asian identity, as well as the lack of unified leadership.

    http://www.theglobalist.com/rising-asia-uneven-journey-promising-future/

    The conversation seems to be alot about Asians as regarded in white supremacist America (and the U. K.?). In my perspective, America is hardly ‘the promised land’, and I’m interested in scouting out new territories for existential fulfillment. I also encouraging young people of African American descent and those of us that are mature and still adventurous to learn languages, and consider the possibilities of sharing our creative productivity and genius in new global locations. And this is not to say that we might not again encounter prejudice and bigotry. But this version here, is tired. I’m looking to step beyond it.

    Liked by 1 person


  69. on Sun 15 May 2016 at 01:56:10 Blade o'Grass

    Abagond, if my previous comment and the article referred to add nothing to the discussion, I’ll appreciate your NOT posting it or deleting it. Thanks.

    Like


  70. @Kiwi

    I didn’t feel like this needed mentioning when TheHipHopRecords brought it up, but it should be noted that Asians, Latinos, Natives, and even Jews all participated in the Civil Rights Movement alongside Blacks, another fact lost to the mists of time. At least for Asian Americans, much of the reason why this aspect of their history is erased or diminished is because of the Model Minority stereotype painting Asians as apolitical and apathetic when they have in fact been struggling for their rights ever since they first stepped foot in America.

    Don’t embarrass yourself dude. Asian people (as a group) have never been on the front line in their stand against white supremacy. The same is true of Latinos and Indians.

    It’s always been black people who have led that charge. Even today look at the riots in Ferguson and Baltimore, black people fighting for freedom, knowing full well that they’re outgunned.

    Let me see Asians face tanks, dogs, water hoses and give their lives to the struggle as many black people worldwide have done.

    Hell, I can’t even think of one prominent Asian person that’s given their life to their struggle of fighting racism

    Black people ? Where to begin ? MLK. Malcolm X. Marcus Garvey. Harriet Tubman. Nat Turner. Farrakhan. Mandela. Steve Biko. Francis Cress Wesling.

    The list goes on and on

    Don’t get me wrong, there are no doubt some Asians who are about that life, and who don’t f*ck around and would have it with anyone. You know you had Asian kamikaze pilots but I look at how people act as a group.

    Asians (as a group) just want to be the oppressor, that’s what that Peter Liand stuff was about

    Even on a personal level, there have been many times I have seen a white man off the street, in a Chinese restaurant come in and be rude as hell to staff, do all that “ching chong” nonsense, yet the staff don’t do nothing.

    Let a white man off the street come into a black restaurant or barber and start being racist and we’ll show you how you should handle that nonsense.

    Like


  71. @jefe

    we should not imagine connections that were not there or imagine effects (e.g., “Opening the door”) that are not direct consequences of that movement…It would be disingenuous or at least an exaggeration to term it as “African Americans involved in opening the door” for millions of immigrants to the US.

    I see this issue very differently. According to my research and understanding, the Civil Rights movement had a direct bearing on the passage of the 1965 Immigration Act.

    The Civil Rights movement shifted the political and moral conversation around issues of fairness and equality in the US. That shift affected not only African Americans but all other citizens as well. Chicanos, Native Americans, Asian Americans, Gays and Lesbians and Euro-American Feminists all saw possibilities for greater expression and opportunity.

    According to Mark Naison, professor of African-American studies and history at Fordham University in New York. “It was the civil rights movement… [that] broke through the whole aura of political stagnation that was created by the McCarthy era and the Cold War, and allowed us to imagine another world…and allowed people to talk about real issues in our domestic lives.”

    One group that fought hardest for fairness in the immigration system was the American Committee on Italian Migration. By the 1960s. they had the numbers and they were finally “White” enough to be heard. However it was the momentum of laws clearing away legal restrictions against Black people that caused federal legislators to rethink the highly restrictive quota system of existing immigration laws.

    In an 2013 Associated Press article by Deepti Hajela, the connection between the Civil Rights movement and the 1965 Immigration Law is discussed:

    “Speaking to the American Committee on Italian Migration in June 1963, President John F. Kennedy cited the “nearly intolerable” plight of those who had family members in other countries who wanted to come to the U.S. and could be useful citizens, but were being blocked by “the inequity and maldistribution of the quota numbers.”

    Two years later, in signing into law a replacement system that established a uniform number of people allowed entry to the United States despite national origin, President Lyndon B. Johnson said it would correct “a cruel and enduring wrong in the conduct of the American nation.”

    Stephen Klineberg, sociology professor at Rice University in Houston, said the civil rights movement “was the main force that made that viciously racist law come to be perceived as intolerable,” precisely because it raised questions about fairness and equality.”

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/civil-rights-immigration-history-connected-072748928.html?ref=gs

    I agree that there has always been a flow of immigrants from the Caribbean region. The deportation of Marcus Garvey to Jamaica in 1927, is just one example of how their sometimes nebulous legal status served political aims.

    The primary reason Africans and Afro-Caribbeans did not emigrate to the US prior to 1965 en mass is because they were involved in intense independence struggles from European colonial powers.

    After achieving “independence” IMF/World Bank gangsters burdened their economies with odious loans and savage “structural adjustment” austerity plans leading to the best and the brightest moving to Europe and North America. That flow started in the 1970s.

    While Chicanos, Native Americans, Asian Americans and a tiny minority of Whites participated in the Civil Rights movement, the movement was created and sustained by Black people. Countless Black private individuals donated time, money, energy, food, transportation, room and board for an army of Black and White activists during Freedom Rides, Freedom Summers, Voter Registration drives, Freedom Schools and rebuilding of burned out Black Churches.

    Black people bore the brunt of assaults, beatings, shootings, job losses, exile, bombings and house destruction during the movement. Three examples of the horrific violence Black people endured during the Civil Rights Era include:

    “Bombingham”, Alabama
    Black people in Birmingham, Alabama endured a White Supremacist bombing campaign in 1963 that terrorized the Black community. According to some accounts, nearly 80 Black homes and other sites were firebombed.
    https://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2013/09/16/bombingham-alabama-fifty-years-later/

    Orangeburg Massacre
    “The Orangeburg Massacre took place in Orangeburg, South Carolina at South Carolina State University on February 8th, 1968. This horrific incident which ended with three young men, Samuel Hammond, Henry Smith, and Delano Middleton, killed and 27 other students wounded, was the worst example of violence on a college campus in South Carolina’s history.”
    http://www.blackpast.org/aah/orangeburg-massacre-1968

    Jackson State Massacre
    On May 14, 1970, local and state police opened fire on a group of students at the predominantly black Jackson State College in Mississippi. In a twenty-eight-second barrage of gunfire, police fired hundreds of rounds into the crowd. Two were killed and a dozen injured.
    http://www.democracynow.org/2010/5/14/40_years_ago_police_kill_two

    In addition, according to the Civil Rights Movement Veterans, in Mississippi alone between the years of 1955 and 1970, fifty-six people died because of their connection (or perceived connection) to the Civil Rights Movement. That is just the official tally. The real numbers are probably higher. The victims were overwhelmingly Black.
    http://www.crmvet.org/mem/msmartyr.htm

    I agree with you about the importance of the Wong Kim Ark v. US (1898) Supreme Court ruling which affirmed that children of immigrants or even children of legal residents to the USA would be US citizens under birthright citizenship. I disagree with the ruling’s impact. To me, it had a negligible effect on the immigration and naturalization system of the US. That system did not change in any substantive way until the 1965 Immigration Act. That system was directly impacted by the on the ground activism and tremendous sacrifices of ordinary Black people and their allies in the vanguard.

    Liked by 1 person


  72. @ TheHipHopRecords

    Asian people (as a group) have never been on the front line in their stand against white supremacy.

    Right, Chinese Americans who were massacred and Japanese Americans who were interned were never on the front lines against White supremacy.

    /end sarcasm

    It’s always been black people who have led that charge.

    Right, that explains why Blacks did everything they could to bust Japanese Americans out of the concentration camps and even wrote a letter to FDR condemning him for the internment.

    /end sarcasm

    I can’t even think of one prominent Asian person that’s given their life to their struggle of fighting racism

    Exactly! It just goes to show how little you know (and care) about Asian American history.

    Asians (as a group) just want to be the oppressor, that’s what that Peter Liand stuff was about

    Of course! I forgot that Blacks are morally superior. That’s why the Black community was all over Darren Ilardi and condemned him when he killed an Asian man and walked off scot free.

    /end sarcasm

    Like


  73. @ Afrofem

    One of the reasons why Blacks always appear to be so front and center when it comes to race relations vis-à-vis Whites is population size. During the Civil Rights Movement, Blacks made up about 80% of racial minorities in the US. After you account for decades of ethnic cleansing, immigration bans, and mass deportations that depleted or restricted the numbers of Natives, Asians, and Chicanos in America, it would not be surprising to see Blacks left to “bear the brunt” of struggles, as you put it.

    All this tells me is that Whites were simply more successful at removing non-Black minorities from America, not that non-Black minorities were more apathetic in terms of justice and equal rights.

    Like


  74. @TheHipHopRecords

    “Hell, I can’t even think of one prominent Asian person that’s given their life to their struggle of fighting racism”

    Ghandi???

    Like


  75. @ Solitaire

    I know, right? Last I checked, Gandhi was Martin Luther King’s role model. Who woulda thunk it?

    Like


  76. @Afrofem,

    I agree with all the facts that you presented. There are two opinions that I disagree with. If you still insist that your interpretation is correct, then we are going to have to agree to disagree.

    I might not fully agree with the definitions you propose of “direct consequence” and “indirect consequence”.

    I would call the changes in immigration and naturalization in 1965 a direct consequence of the civil rights movement if that was one of the key objectives of that movement. It was not. So, despite the significant impact it had, I would still call it an indirect impact.

    A combination of factors coalesced to create the change in immigration laws, including the civil rights movement, the Cold War, and Americans themselves, primarily Asians, who had been fighting for it all along for nearly a century. The former two had an indirect impact.

    I completely disagree that the Wong Kim Ark v. US case did not have significant bearing on US immigration until 1965. At the very least it gave rise to the proliferation of paper sons and daughters, which actually caused the Chinese American population to grow multifold 1906-1965. For Chinese Americans, it was substantive, and explains the origins of over a third of Chinese Americans today, a direct consequence of Wong Kim Ark. And it was not only the Chinese that this act benefited, but also all the other groups who had been restricted by the 1920s immigration laws. Millions of people were guaranteed citizenship in the USA thanks to the Wong Kim Ark case.

    It continues to impact today, and is the main reason why children of Latino and African (and European and Asian) immigrants are unquestionably US citizens. Its impact has been major since the ruling in 1898, and is one of the hotly contested principles that immigration opponents want to overturn. However, I would agree that the impact on the these other groups has been indirect.

    In any case, it can be difficult to point to specific causes and end results. For example, one might argue (and correctly so) that Loving v. Virginia not only benefited blacks, but also paved the way to grant Native Americans and Asians the right to marry whom they want. However, it would be wrong to say that other groups had not been working on it all along. We only have to go back a decade earlier to learn about Naim v. Naim, when a Chinese American man appealed the decision of the State of Virginia to annul his legal marriage, and lost.

    Like


  77. @Kiwi

    I would not say it is just population size. I would also add that they dealt with the brunt of racial discrimination. Not discounting the struggle of Asians, but it was not the same.

    Liked by 1 person


  78. @Solitaire

    Not sure if the internet rumors are true or not, but ghandi was said to be a racist who simply did not like black people. Maybe this can be clarified in discussion.

    Liked by 1 person


  79. @ Kiwi,

    OMG, did I spell Gandhi wrong?! I shouldn’t have gotten out of bed this morning. First I mess up simple html coding, now this!

    *hides head under pillow*

    Like


  80. @ Sharina

    I would not say it is just population size. I would also add that they dealt with the brunt of racial discrimination.

    I know it looks as if Blacks were bearing the brunt of discrimination. But I said it looks that way because Blacks were the only group whose numbers weren’t whittled down the way it was done to Asians, Natives, or Chicanos. If Blacks had been killed, shut out, or driven off the way other races were, leaving some other group as the majority of people of color, they would look like they had bore the brunt.

    There is strength in numbers. We say that about Whites all the time, them being the racial majority and all.

    Like


  81. THHR has a severe deficit in his awareness of US and world history, unless it is simply a matter of being willfully obtuse.

    Hundreds of thousands of Asians in the USA and millions of Native Americans have lost their lives, standing up to white racism. The US government has simply been much more effective in removing them from the population than they were in removing blacks. There are plaques and memorials across the USA commemorating this, but not many and very few tell the story from the viewpoint of those who lost their lives. Why? because they were removed in much greater numbers and there are not many descendants left to tell the story.

    Let me see Asians face tanks,

    How about “tank man” in the Tian An Men massacre incident?

    Like


  82. @ Sharina

    I don’t know anything about that, so I will have to get back to you. If it is true, it’s unfortunate, but like MLK, Gandhi wasn’t perfect (both of them apparently had major issues with sexism, for instance). It would tarnish his legacy, but it would not change the fact that he spent his life fighting racism in the form that it took in his country. He succeeded in expelling the white colonial oppressors using nonviolent resistance and at the time of his death was working to resolve deep-seated religious prejudices between Hindus and Muslims.

    Like


  83. @Sharina

    Not discounting the struggle of Asians, but it was not the same.

    It was not the same as most did not survive. Their struggle resulted in a much much higher proportional death toll.

    Since black Americans managed to survive their oppressions to a much larger extent, then they can also help voice the oppression of those who did not survive.

    Like


  84. @Kiwi

    I disagree. It looks that way because frankly it is that way and population size does not really explain the fact that they are bearing the brunt of discrimination. Latinos are an ever growing group and they still are not facing the magnitude of discrimination that blacks are. Asians are smaller, but their discrimination is not at the level of blacks and not in the manner of them either.

    Natives are probably the only group that can say they are being killed by cops more than blacks.

    With that in mind people are more willing to fight if they are more effected by something. For example, middle class blacks maybe upset by issues, but are not quick to jump in issues with lower class blacks because they feel they are least effected by it.

    Liked by 1 person


  85. @ Kiwi @ Jefe

    I would add: as long as the white man is promoting the Model Minority myth, he has a reason to erase the history of Asian American protest and resistance. Look at the labor movement, for one example, how Cesar Chavez has become the face of the grape-growers strike and has been issued a postage stamp etc., while no one commemorates Larry Itliong.

    Like


  86. *affected*

    Like


  87. @ Sharina

    I disagree… Asians are smaller, but their discrimination is not at the level of blacks

    If Asians are rounded up or massacred by the thousands again, then will you agree?

    Like


  88. @jefe

    If you don’t mind sharing some of those large Asian protests that took place within the US that resulted in the death of Asians. I will be honest and say I personally am skeptical and was sadly unsuccessful in finding any. Could be due to my search word usage.

    Yes, I believe Asians protest. No, I do not believe theirs resulted in more loss.

    Like


  89. @Kiwi

    No. I will agree when someone can show me a situation or story etc. But I will never agree that population plays as much of a role or even a role at all in the reason for a high level of discrimination against blacks.

    Like


  90. @Solitaire

    I agree that he did an amazing job at fighting racism in his country and he is human and thus have his faults.

    Like


  91. @ Solitaire

    like MLK, Gandhi wasn’t perfect

    IMO, both men were racist.

    Gandhi disdained Blacks and did not consider them equal to Indians. On the other hand, Martin Luther King was an ardent pro-Zionist and attacked critics of Zionism as anti-Semites. Apparently, King did not see Arabs as equal to Blacks.

    Like


  92. @ Sharina

    No. I will agree when someone can show me a situation or story etc.

    jefe has already shared these situations and stories on this thread. He mentioned the massacres of Asians in the US. I recall him sharing a book some time back on another thread about the decimation of the Chinese American population during the Exclusion Era. Hopefully, he can share sources as he is more knowledgable than me.

    Yes, I believe Asians protest. No, I do not believe theirs resulted in more loss.

    I think you are looking at history backwards. Imagine if Japanese Americans had protested the internment en masse. I bet they would have all been killed off. The reason they largely chose not to fight back was due to this fear.

    Like


  93. @ Sharina

    I will never agree that population plays as much of a role or even a role at all in the reason for a high level of discrimination against blacks.

    That is not my argument. I said the reason the Black population was as high as it was compared to other minorities during the Civil Rights era was because they were the only ones who weren’t killed off, driven away, or shut out at the level that other races were.

    Like


  94. Sharina,

    You need to get this book:

    “Driven Out: The Forgotten War Against Chinese Americans,” by Jean Pfaelzer. She talks about the removal in 253 towns in California alone. There were still hundreds and hundreds of other towns in Washington, Oregon, idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Utah, Nevada, Colorado, etc. etc. where people were driven out or killed.

    She mentioned that Chinese indeed resisted, protested and fought against most of these forced removals, resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands. 7000 court cases were brought up following the Chinese Exclusion Act in the first decade.

    My great-grandfather stood up to a white mob in Oregon and was killed. I have heard that his name IS on a plaque somewhere, and I will need to go find it and check it out.

    https://books.google.com.hk/books?id=koQalf4HiZ4C

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/books/review/Limerick-t.html

    This is just one phenomena where there was massive resistance, protest and DEATH, the scale of which arguably exceeds the Civil Rights movement of the mid-20th century.

    Is the case of Korematsu v. US also not a sign of protest and resistance against the forced imprisonment of over 115,000 US citizens and residents? Our “friend” SCOTUS justice Scalia refused to allow that ruling to be reversed in 2014.

    Liked by 1 person


  95. @Solitaire

    as long as the white man is promoting the Model Minority myth, he has a reason to erase the history of Asian American protest and resistance.

    Well, arguably one of the main reasons why the Model Minority was advanced in the first place in 1966 was to point out that Chinese Americans had been imported as forced labour in the USA, then shut out of the country in 1882, and then massacred and driven out to dwindle to such small numbers. It also pointed out how 110,000-120,000 citizens and residents were imprisoned in the Japanese American internment camps. The two articles in 1966 pointed out how Asians had suffered terrible acts of treatment at the hands of US society and government, yet did not scale such large destructive protests demanding equal rights with whites or destroy white property. The purpose was a backlash against Affirmative Action.

    But alas, the reason why the Model Minority myth was invented in the first place has been largely lost on the US population. but it is republicans who retain an element of the original myth by insisting that Asians still are not white, yet don’t cause so much trouble. White liberals have been the most active in erasing the history of Asian American resistance and protest.

    Like


  96. @ Jefe

    “White liberals have been the most active in erasing the history of Asian American resistance and protest.”

    What is their reason for doing so, in your opinion?

    Like


  97. @ Kiwi

    I have not read up thread as of yet to know what Jefe has or has not posted and I don’t remember the other threads where he may or may not have posted stories of the US. That is why I am asking for them here on this subject matter.

    You stated “I know it looks as if Blacks were bearing the brunt of discrimination. But I said it looks that way because Blacks were the only group whose numbers weren’t whittled down the way it was done to Asians, Natives, or Chicanos.”

    I will repeat…..I will never agree that population plays as much of a role or even a role at all in the reason for a high level of discrimination against blacks.

    I disagree with the idea or hint of idea that population size has anything to do with blacks bearing the brunt of discrimination.

    Like


  98. @Jefe

    Thank you for the suggested reading.

    Like


  99. @Solitaire,

    The same reason why they are colour-blind, why any history more than 30 years ago is the ancient past, and to show that they are no longer racist and what happened in the past either couldn’t be helped or didn’t happen in the first place.

    I put up a link in comments from The Young Turks which was in rebuttal to Bill O’Reilly, but I found it to be just as bad as Bill O’Reilly. When I find it, I can copy the link here.

    Like


  100. @ Sharina

    I will repeat…..I will never agree that population plays as much of a role or even a role at all in the reason for a high level of discrimination against blacks.

    I will repeat for the third time. That is NOT what I said.

    I said the reason Blacks had a considerably larger population than other racial minorities is because they were not killed off, driven away, or shut out at the level that other groups were.

    In fact, I see this as part of the reason why our education about the history of US race relations before the Civil Rights era is so Black/White-dominated. The other voices of color were largely killed off so all we’re left hearing when we look for racial discourse from people of color are Black ones. Not that Black voices are a bad thing, but when it means other voices of color are excluded, it leaves a lot to be desired.

    I first noticed this from when I was a child and this thread has made it even more clear to me.

    Like


  101. @ Jefe

    Gotcha. Thanks for explaining. I’m a bit slow on the uptake today.

    Like


  102. @Kiwi

    I quoted what you said.

    From your quote you are saying that the reasons that it looks as if blacks are getting the brunt of discrimination is because they have a higher population compared to other groups whose numbers have been whittled down? Is that or is that not what you are saying in that quote?

    Whether you know it or not you are implying that the large number of blacks plays a role in why whites target them more. Your statement implies that it has to do with whites success in killing off the others as opposed to their lack of success killing off blacks. No?

    Liked by 1 person


  103. @ Sharina

    Whether you know it or not you are implying that the large number of blacks plays a role in why whites target them more.

    I am challenging the assumption that Blacks are targeted more. You’ve stated clearly that you believe Blacks and Asians are targeted in different ways and yet you believe that a direct comparison can still be made between the two.

    We know Blacks are more likely to be targeted by the police as suspected criminals (eg: police brutality towards Blacks). But we also know Asians are more likely to be targeted by the government as suspected spies (eg: Japanese American internment).

    Maybe you personally believe one is worse and that I can understand, but I do not understand or even see a reason why anyone should turn it into an Oppression Olympics match.

    Your statement implies that it has to do with whites success in killing off the others as opposed to their lack of success killing off blacks.

    No, it has to do with Blacks being the main voices left behind who are still able to air grievances and construct a narrative of racial discrimination. While there is nothing wrong in having a voice, it does not mean that the struggles of other groups are lesser, especially if the reason for believing so is due to their voices being silenced.

    Like


  104. @Jefe

    THHR has a severe deficit in his awareness of US and world history, unless it is simply a matter of being willfully obtuse.

    Hundreds of thousands of Asians in the USA and millions of Native Americans have lost their lives, standing up to white racism. The US government has simply been much more effective in removing them from the population than they were in removing blacks. There are plaques and memorials across the USA commemorating this, but not many and very few tell the story from the viewpoint of those who lost their lives. Why? because they were removed in much greater numbers and there are not many descendants left to tell the story.

    Let me see Asians face tanks,

    How about “tank man” in the Tian An Men massacre incident?

    I have never once said that Asians have not lost their lives. What I’m saying is no other non-white group comes close to black people when it comes to fighting white racism.

    There is no Asian-Black union. We have no friends That’s my point. That Peter Liang case just showed it.

    I also looked at the Asian reaction on Twitter after the Mayweather – Pacquiao fight. They were calling Mayweather, what’s that word ? “Su nog” and every racial name under the sun.

    Like


  105. @ TheHipHopRecords

    What I’m saying is no other non-white group comes close to black people when it comes to fighting white racism.

    All the massive wars that Asians have fought against Western countries that imperialized them tell a different story.

    Like


  106. @ TheHipHopRecords

    At my workplace, you can easily find Black veterans who served in Korea or Vietnam. Would you say they were fighting White racism or just killing Asians?

    Like


  107. @Kiwi

    All the massive wars that Asians have fought against Western countries that imperialized them tell a different story.

    Fighting against racism and fighting in a war are not necessarily the same thing.

    Like


  108. ^^^

    Sure, there was conscription but its elimination hasn’t stopped Blacks from serving in Iraq or Afghanistan. I wonder if they are fighting White racism or just killing Muslims?

    Like


  109. @ TheHipHopRecords

    Fighting against racism and fighting in a war are not necessarily the same thing.

    Yes, Captain Obvious. I hoped you’d noticed that a big reason Asians fought wars against the West was to drive out foreign invaders who occupied their countries for racist reasons.

    Like


  110. @Kiwi

    Sure, there was conscription but its elimination hasn’t stopped Blacks from serving in Iraq or Afghanistan. I wonder if they are fighting White racism or just killing Muslims?

    I’m not sure what point you are trying to make here.

    Like


  111. @Kiwi

    Yes, Captain Obvious. I hoped you’d noticed that a big reason Asians fought wars against the West was to drive out foreign invaders who occupied their countries for racist reasons.

    Those Asian badasses gave USA that work in Vietnam No doubt. Yeah – They had balls.

    But how come the ones that come to the USA and Europe don’t have that ? They are a lot more conformist and quiet (In general)

    Like


  112. @ TheHipHopRecords

    I’m not sure what point you are trying to make here.

    Black Americans are active participants in the invasion and occupation of other countries. They are helping to build and maintain a racist empire that kills and oppresses people of other nations. Obama is a prime example.

    But how come the ones that come to the USA and Europe don’t have that ? They are a lot more conformist and quiet (In general)

    On one hand, I want to call this out as a stereotype. But on the other hand, this is an interesting question that was best addressed on this thread:

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/08/08/counter-frames/

    I hope you find the sections on Asians and Latinos as intriguing and informative as I did.

    Like


  113. @THHR

    no other non-white group comes close to black people when it comes to fighting white racism.

    It is because most of those that fought white racism (ie, Asians, Native Americans) are pretty much gone. They fought with their lives.

    Of course, many blacks fought with their lives. But their numbers also increased during that entire time. Which means they were not targeted for genocide like the other groups. Regardless of how many blacks paid with their lives, it is a fraction of many of the other groups.

    Part of the reason is because there is still a remnant from pre-Civil war days when blacks were largely a form of property, or source of free or cheap labour. They were worth more alive than dead. Not so with the other people.

    I am the first one to rally against the idea of oppression olympics, so I will not do it here either. In fact, it is impossible to quantify a level of suffering for that which could be comparable between apples and oranges cases. But your claims have little to do with any actual fact.

    Asian reaction on Twitter after the Mayweather – Pacquiao fight.

    Was that the reaction from Americans or foreigners?

    I do know what “sunog” means in Tagalog. I agree that whether it was foreigners doing that or Americans, it would be a racist epithet.

    Re: your statement to Kiwi

    They are a lot more conformist and quiet

    I know where some of that comes from. Those that stood up and resisted were usually killed. They are no longer here. Survivors learn not to make waves.

    Actually, this actually supports the idea that historically white people tend to protect blacks more. They were less likely to be killed for their protests.

    Like


  114. @Solitaire,

    Here is where I posted about the White Liberal Attitude re: Asian American history.

    (https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/05/20/the-model-minority-stereotype/#comment-250494)

    If you have time, watch the clip from the Young Turks.

    Some comments after that also discuss a little about the difference between liberal and Republican take on the Model Minority Stereotype.

    Like


  115. “Actually, this actually supports the idea that historically white people tend to protect blacks more. They were less likely to be killed for their protests.”

    .

    Wow… just _____ wow!
    White people protect Blacks more than asians?
    That is so incredible I’m utterly speechless!

    “The idea” I come away with after reading the comments of jefe and kiwi is, who needs allies like these guys?

    And WHAT BRINGS them to a blog that is primarily written for and about Black people? They’re certainly aren’t about promoting or strengthening the unity between Blacks and asians, building a more formidable coalition against white supremacy-racism!

    Is theirs a grievance agenda, or is something more sinister (undercover/divisive) going on here?

    Liked by 3 people


  116. @ jefe

    Survivors learn not to make waves.

    I am starting to see that the reason why Asians were selected as the object of the Model Minority stereotype has nothing to do with them being apolitical or apathetic to social struggles but instead is due to them being discriminated against so severely to the point that they feared violent backlash for protesting.

    Chinese Americans had been massacred in droves for nearly a century and it was this memory that was still fresh in their minds that led them to fear that they could all be killed for protesting.

    Similarly, Japanese Americans had been interned in concentration camps and this memory, also fresh in their minds, led them to fear that they could all be rounded up and killed for protesting.

    Whereas for Black Americans the memory was of slavery and lynching, the memory for Asian Americans was large-scale massacres and the fear of genocide.

    Like


  117. Kiwi

    It is not an assumption that blacks are targeted more. It is a reality. Being targeted differently still allows for a comparison. That does not become obsolete because one is different from the other.

    Blacks suffer police brutality and death now and have for a long time. Asian internment camp was years ago and really is hard to compare to an ongoing issue. There is not such a large hostile ongoing issue for Asians, which is why every conversation about this results in reaching several years back to say…”we have our death toll too.”

    I never said the other groups were lesser. I just do not believe the low population, no voice etc. Is not a good enough reason to class they are discriminated against the same as blacks.

    Liked by 2 people


  118. Abagond said:

    I think genocide against Blacks Americans is certainly possible. It was headed in that direction in the 1960s. Arguably, the riots stopped it.

    Before 2100, the genocidal hammer is more likely to fall on Asians: there are fewer if them and they make an easier scapegoat: the perpetual foreigner and model minority stereotypes has already set them up for that. If the US finds itself losing a war to China, it could come to that.

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2015/10/28/assault-at-spring-valley-high/#comment-298805

    Like


  119. @Fan…

    Yeah that comment spoke volumes. If less likely means every time you protest, then wow.

    Like


  120. Kiwi

    Slavery and lynching and police brutality and have to be driven from your home on the basis that a white person was in a bad mood etc. That is daily fresh. Blacks have memory of a lot and still faught. So do not use the ns excuse of “Asians were scared” explain their lack of involvement in protests today and their acceptance of model minority stereotype.

    Liked by 1 person


  121. @ sharinalr

    I never said the other groups were lesser.

    If other groups’ issues aren’t lesser, then that means Blacks aren’t targeted more.

    Blacks suffer police brutality and death now and have for a long time. Asian internment camp was years ago and really is hard to compare to an ongoing issue.

    Then that only means Middle Easterners/Muslims are targeted more than Blacks. Far more Middle Easterners/Muslims are targeted and killed by the US military. We see this in Iraq and Afghanistan, which are both ongoing issues.

    Like


  122. Kiwi

    No, it simply means that other groups issues are not the same.

    I am sure middle eastern erstwhile and Muslims are, but in this country they are not.

    Like


  123. middle eastern and Muslims are, but in this country they are not.

    Like


  124. Fan,

    Please review your US history.

    Like


  125. @ sharinalr

    So do not use the ns excuse of “Asians were scared” explain their lack of involvement in protests today and their acceptance of model minority stereotype.

    The Model Minority stereotype was imposed on Asians in part because of the mass killings of Asians. And unbeknownst to you, you have been implying on this thread that the stereotype is true and have yourself used it repeatedly.

    Like


  126. Kiwi

    That is your opinion on why it was imposed and do not with fake idea that I implied a stereotype on the basis that I do not agree with your stance or logic on this matter.

    Liked by 1 person


  127. @ sharinalr

    I am sure middle eastern and Muslims are, but in this country they are not.

    So because they don’t live in the US, their lives don’t matter as much, right? The president has murdered American citizens and has gotten away with it because they were Muslim and were in the Middle East. What does that tell us?

    Like


  128. @ sharinalr

    The idea that “Asians don’t have it as bad” doesn’t come from reality. It comes from the Model Minority stereotype. So yes, my opinion is you have in fact bought into the stereotype.

    Like


  129. @Kiwi

    No, because they don’t like in the US when the discuss is about actions in the US. I don’t doubt he has, but I also don’t have proof he has. What I have proof of is white American citizens murdering or attacking Muslims in the USA.

    I never said Asians don’t have it bad. So Again do not try to impose a false model minority argument on me that I never made. I said several times it is not the same and it is not.

    Like


  130. @jefe

    Reading history will not change that you used a common saying or threat that whites use regularly against blacks. It is usually worded that we can kill you anytime, which implies the reason they did not is because they “protected” us.

    Like


  131. Sharina,

    If you need some figures to understand, we can do that.

    Some 600,000 Africans were brought to the USA before the mid-1800s.

    Some 370,000 Chinese were brought to the mainland USA (not including Hawaii) in the 1800s.

    In 1940 there were 13 million blacks in the USA; there were 77,000 Chinese.
    (In the 1870s-early 1900s, Chinese resisted and protested very actively. They are no longer here. Those that survived had learned NOT to engage in active protest. Their lives depended on it.)

    In 1870, Chinese were 30% of the population in Idaho; in 1940, they were barely 0.1%.

    In 1870, blacks in Alabama and Georgia each were about 44-45% of the population; in 1940, they were 35%.

    Who is no longer here to tell the story of what happened? Who is still here?

    If you need to look at Native Americans, maybe look at Montana, which still has American Indian reservations today. They are also, by and large, no longer here.
    (https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/11/20/racializing-montana/)

    Like


  132. @ Sharina

    What I have proof of is white American citizens murdering or attacking Muslims in the USA.

    Hate crimes against all groups have steadily declined over the last 15 years, except for Muslims. Going by this, it seems Muslims are targeted more. Is this a fact you would accept or would you still think Blacks are targeted more?

    I never said Asians don’t have it bad.

    I know. You said they are targeted less, which means they they don’t have it as bad.

    Like


  133. @ Sharina

    Are you noticing how Kiwi continually sets up straw-men and goalpost shifting with *Middle Eastern and Muslim* people when the discussion is about Asians?

    @jefe

    Liked by 1 person


  134. I apologized that it was interpreted that I made a reference that sparks a nerve in people. But, actually, I was not actually stating that as an opinion, and I don’t believe it either, so I do not appreciate if you or anyone said that I said that.

    All I said was what YOU said tended to support that statement, and that is an observation on what you did, not whether I believe in anything or not.

    Like


  135. Sharina,

    I apologize that it was interpreted that I made a reference that sparks a nerve in people. But, although I made a reference, I was not actually stating that as an opinion, and I don’t believe it either, so I do not appreciate if you or anyone said that I said that.

    All I said was what YOU said tended to support that statement, and that is an observation on what you did, not whether I believe in anything or not.

    Like


  136. @jefe

    What does posting figures have to do with make a statement heavily used by racist whites against blacks? It is nice you have stats, but they are just used to excuse what was said.

    “Who is no longer here to tell the story of what happened? Who is still here?”—I am not excusing or disagreeing that they are less, but being less is not an excuse to say blacks are more “protected”.

    Like


  137. @Sharina,
    Even though I said

    Those that survived had learned NOT to engage in active protest.

    Having said that, they did continue to protest in other ways. They still continued to use habeus corpus to take legal challenges.

    Like


  138. Sharina,

    I said that your statement tended to support that argument.

    Like


  139. @Jefe

    “All I said was what YOU said tended to support that statement, and that is an observation on what you did, not whether I believe in anything or not.”—Could you quote what you are referring?

    Like


  140. @Jefe

    Sorry we are typing on top of each other and I submit before I have read what you said. so ignore the last comment.

    Like


  141. @ Fan

    Are you noticing how Kiwi continually sets up straw-men and goalpost shifting with *Middle Eastern and Muslim* people when the discussion is about Asians?

    Gee, I don’t know… it might have nothing to do with the fact that Abagond included Middle Easterners and Muslims in his “Asians make up 61% of the world” statement.

    /end sarcasm

    Like


  142. @Kiwi

    I never said Muslims are or are not, but I do know Muslims are all race of people. I also know that the Muslim tact is a deflection from the actual issue presented, which had nothing to do with them and was about Asians and Blacks. If you want to go on in another direction fine, but it will be alone.

    “You said they are targeted less, which means they they don’t have it as bad.”—Quote where I said that versus you putting words in my mouth or bringing about a false conclusion based on what you want to believe.

    Like


  143. @Fan …

    I have no problem with that usage and I just choose to ignore, but I take issue with being told I said something I did not.

    Like


  144. @Sharina,

    It is usually worded that we can kill you anytime, which implies the reason they did not is because they “protected” us.

    That is a very intimidating statement and was historically used to whip blacks into submission. It is horrible. I agree.

    That is why I find it curious why you repeatedly make claims and statements that tend to support the opposite of what you purport.

    So, what is the difference between intimidating someone with threats of killing them, and simply just killing them? I am not going to debate which is worse, but both are bad. The latter is certainly more deadly.

    Sharina, you know that I am very aware of these intimidation tactics that whites performed on blacks for decades and centuries. I have witnessed it over and over again countless times. Most of my father’s family lived in Mississippi and Alabama during Jim Crow, and my mother is from Alabama. I spent my childhood in Anacostia (DC), PG county, MD, and a large chunk of time in Alabama when George Wallace was governor. I have spent my whole life witnessing this and trying to make sense of it all.

    But, what I am not sure about is how much you are aware of the killing that went on of people who are by and large no longer here.

    If, say, 99.9% of the black population was driven out of Alabama and Georgia and any not willing to leave the country were simply killed, we would have no one left to talk about it, would we. Omit it from the history books and it never even happened. Is that somehow less worse than having survivors around to continue resisting it?

    Like


  145. @ Sharina

    Quote where I said that

    “It is not an assumption that blacks are targeted more. It is a reality.”

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/the-asian-supremacy-argument/#comment-315476

    If Blacks are targeted more, then Asians must be targeted less. I take it that being targeted is bad, so you think Asians don’t have it as bad as Blacks do.

    I believe this thinking comes from the Model Minority stereotype. You call it reality. Well, I guess Black crime is a reality, right?

    Like


  146. @Sharina

    but I take issue with being told I said something I did not.

    same here.

    Liked by 1 person


  147. Sorry Kiwi,

    I may respect Abagond, but I do not WORSHIP the things he does and says as you apparently do.

    /no sarcasm

    Liked by 1 person


  148. @jefe

    “That is why I find it curious why you repeatedly make claims and statements that tend to support the opposite of what you purport.”—Quote what was said by me that does that.

    “If, say, 99.9% of the black population was driven out of Alabama and Georgia and any not willing to leave the country were simply killed, we would have no one left to talk about it, would we. Omit it from the history books and it never even happened. Is that somehow less worse than having survivors around to continue resisting it”–There would still be someone around to talk about it, even if the percentage is small. It will not make it worse. The worse part is not seeking out new means to fight the injustice. The worse part is sitting back and accepting a role while secretly saying we had it bad so we will not try to fight back anymore. T

    Like


  149. @ Fan

    No, you just listen to and accept the things he says that you like to hear and reject whatever contradicts your preconceptions. And this applies to other threads.

    Like


  150. @Kiwi

    And here you find a quote that is not even saying what you clearly stated I said. Which only supports the second half of my statement “you putting words in my mouth or bringing about a false conclusion based on what you want to believe.” Now that you have your false conclusion it is only natural for you to have the false idea that my thinking is model minority.

    “I believe this thinking comes from the Model Minority stereotype. You call it reality. Well, I guess Black crime is a reality, right?”—Black crime is a reality. So is crime in general.

    Like


  151. @ Sharina

    The worse part is not seeking out new means to fight the injustice. The worse part is sitting back and accepting a role while secretly saying we had it bad so we will not try to fight back anymore.

    Michael Jon Barker gave Jim Crow lynching as a reason that Blacks did not fight back but now you are saying that there is never a reason to not resist, no matter the risk of danger. Does your view differ from his?

    Like


  152. @Kiwi

    For starters blacks still fought then. Secondly they should have. Long as I have been on this blog my opinion does not change with race.

    Like


  153. @ Sharina

    And here you find a quote that is not even saying what you clearly stated I said.

    Yes, it does. You said Blacks are targeted more, which I take to be bad. You said to keep the comparison between Blacks and Asians, so that means Asians don’t have it as bad because they are targeted less.

    Unless, you mean Blacks are targeted more, but Asians still have it just as bad. Does that even make sense?

    Black crime is a reality. So is crime in general.

    So crime isn’t a Black thing but being apolitical/apathetic is an Asian thing. I see.

    Like


  154. @Sharina,

    There would still be someone around to talk about it, even if the percentage is small.

    There has always been a group around to talk about it and continue fighting. If you read the google books link I shared above, you would have read.

    Driven Out exposes a shocking story of ethnic cleansing in California and the Pacific Northwest when the first Chinese Americans were rounded up and purged from more than three hundred communities by lawless citizens and duplicitous politicians. From 1848 into the twentieth century, Chinatowns burned across the West as Chinese miners and merchants, lumberjacks and fieldworkers, prostitutes and merchants’ wives were violently loaded onto railroad cars or steamers, marched out of town, or killed.

    But the Chinese fought back–with arms, strikes, and lawsuits and by flatly refusing to leave. When red posters appeared on barns and windows across the United States urging the Chinese to refuse to carry photo identity cards, more than one hundred thousand joined the largest mass civil disobedience to date in the United States. The first Chinese Americans were marched out and starved out. But even facing brutal pogroms, they stood up for their civil rights. This is a story that defines us as a nation and marks our humanity.

    If that is not fighting back, then I don’t know what is.

    And Japanese Americans fought for redress for the WWII internment until the late 1980s. It was still definitely very active when I was in university. That struggle didn’t stop when WWII ended.

    And I left out a piece from my theoretical example above. Let’s say that blacks had been nearly completely wiped out of the Deep South between the civil war and the mid 20th century. Then let’s say that a new group of immigrants came from Africa to the USA starting in the 1960s, and by the 1980s, they and their descendants outnumbered the surviving descendants of the original slaves. Imagine that the story of slavery and Jim Crow disappeared almost entirely from the history books that these African immigrants and their children were educated from.

    How much would these late 20th century immigrants talk about what happened before they arrived, even when another genocide or mass imprisonment looms at any moment?

    Like


  155. @Kiwi

    No, the quote doesn’t. It is clear on what part I said vs what you drew a conclusion of. You have to start separating what you think vs what is being said. IF you are not going to do that then you will repeatedly find yourself putting about a false argument that is not being made. A false idea that is not being presented.

    “So crime isn’t a Black thing but being apolitical/apathetic is an Asian thing. I see.”—This is a clear straw man and you know it. Once again trying to put words in my mouth on something I never said.

    Like


  156. @jefe

    “There has always been a group around to talk about it and continue fighting. If you read the google books link I shared above, you would have read.”—I believe that to be true as I know of groups today, so this is not an issue or dispute between us. Unless you are trying to say the past makes up for the lack of activism today.

    “How much would these late 20th century immigrants talk about what happened before they arrived, even when another genocide or mass imprisonment looms at any moment?”—With those left, those stories will circulate. The new immigrants may not be able to relate, but I am sure with interaction with other blacks they will be aware of it. They may or may not choose to fight depending on if they are fighters, but I doubt they will simply just do nothing.

    Like


  157. @ Sharina

    No, the quote doesn’t.

    Then cut to the chase. You say Blacks are targeted more than Asians. But you say I’m putting words in your mouth when I think you’re saying Blacks have it worse than Asians. Does this mean you think Asians have it just as bad as Blacks?

    This is a clear straw man

    Quote:

    “Blacks have memory of a lot and still faught. So do not use the ns excuse of “Asians were scared” explain their lack of involvement in protests today and their acceptance of model minority stereotype.”

    You say Asians lack involvement in protests and have accepted the Model Minority stereotype. Does that mean Blacks commit crime disproportionately and have accepted the Black Criminal stereotype?

    Like


  158. @Kiwi

    I already cut to the chase, but you took what you wanted and ran with it. Ignoring where I stated my position. You go and quote things you think support your stance, but have yet to quote or look for where I was clear on my position.

    “You say Asians lack involvement in protests and have accepted the Model Minority stereotype.”—They don’t and I know avian activists groups now what are calling other Asians out on it. So stop acting as if it magically is not true. Also please stop trying so hard to find something to argue about. If you did not address when I said it several posts up then it is only now an issue when you want to find another arguing point.

    “Does that mean Blacks commit crime disproportionately and have accepted the Black Criminal stereotype?”—Sure why not. I mean who argues with stats.

    Like


  159. Asian* that*

    Like


  160. @ Sharina

    I already cut to the chase

    No, you didn’t. I caught you making a contradiction and now you’re avoiding making a clarification because it would mean you having to own up to it. Instead of giving a simple clarification, you spend more energy claiming I’m putting words in your mouth. You are being evasive.

    “You say Asians lack involvement in protests and have accepted the Model Minority stereotype.”—They don’t and I know avian activists groups now what are calling other Asians out on it.

    Sure why not. I mean who argues with anecdotes.

    Like


  161. “..please stop trying so hard to find something to argue about. If you did not address when I said it several posts up then it is only now an issue when you want to find another arguing point. ”

    @ Sharina

    Asking kiwi to stop trying to find something to argue about is about the same as asking a Zebra to stop having stripes!

    “…an intelligent [belligerent] Asian man is just an ugly, nerdy ch#nk with a small penis.”

    No wonder Asian women want nothing to do with this person, and would rather be with men of other races.

    Liked by 1 person


  162. @Kiwi

    Sorry, but no. What you did was take a statement I made and came to your own conclusion. That is not a contradiction that is your straw man. I am not avoiding making clarification as I did up thread. Just because you chose to ignore it does not mean I have to go back and point it out o you. That is not being evasive, that it choosing not to go look.

    “Sure why not. I mean who argues with anecdotes.”—No one really does, but if you can’t listen to an actual Asian activist then who can you listen to.

    Like


  163. Sad part is that you are pulling quotes from where I made the clarification and are only focusing on the part you want.

    Like


  164. @ Fan

    No wonder Asian women want nothing to do with this person, and would rather be with men of other races.

    Thank you for showing that Blacks are just as capable of being racist and applying racial stereotypes.

    Like


  165. ““The idea” I come away with after reading the comments of jefe and kiwi is, who needs allies like these guys?

    And WHAT BRINGS them to a blog that is primarily written for and about Black people? They’re certainly aren’t about promoting or strengthening the unity between Blacks and asians, building a more formidable coalition against white supremacy-racism!

    Is theirs a grievance agenda, or is something more sinister (undercover/divisive) going on here?”

    .
    .
    .
    .
    Super crickets!!!

    Liked by 2 people


  166. @ Sharina

    What you did was take a statement I made and came to your own conclusion.

    Well, don’t you?

    I concluded from your statement that Blacks have it worse than Asians, to which you claimed I put words in your mouth. If my conclusion is false, then Asians have it just as bad as Blacks, right?

    Like


  167. On this thread:

    Multiple Black commenters apply Asian stereotypes (repeatedly):

    the Yellow Peril stereotype

    the Perpetual Foreigner stereotype

    the Model Minority stereotype

    the small Asian penis stereotype (haha!)

    0 Asian commenters apply any Black stereotypes except in response to Asian stereotypes in order to prove a point.

    Conclusion:

    Asians are sinister. Umm, ok, whatever.

    Like


  168. Sadly it is not just the commenters, but also the blog owner.

    jefe said of abagond several year ago:

    Your post has made me realize something (which I have felt, but never actually stated to myself). Without consciously intending it, Abagond might be weakening the problem of anti-Asian racism and violence by suggesting (even unintentionally in his statements such as the one you quoted) that it is not serious, not pervasive, not long and historical enough to earn much sympathy, ie, it is sheer folly to consider that some of it was (and still is) actually worse than anti-black racism.

    I used to wonder what he meant and even felt like I disagreed, but now I understand.

    Like


  169. Sharina,

    Since we largely agree on many things, can you restate what your position was? Was it about the Oppression olympics issue?

    Was it related to

    If you don’t mind sharing some of those large Asian protests that took place within the US that resulted in the death of Asians.
    ….
    Yes, I believe Asians protest. No, I do not believe theirs resulted in more loss.

    and my counterpoint was that the death toll on Asians who resisted and protested was very devastating. I don’t think it is right to say which or who had it worse OVERALL based solely on this factor alone, but as far as DEATH and population decimation in the USA, Asians were affected more deeply and intensely than blacks on this one single factor.

    Like


  170. @Kiwi

    Multiple Black commenters apply Asian stereotypes (repeatedly):

    the Yellow Peril stereotype

    the Perpetual Foreigner stereotype

    the Model Minority stereotype

    the small Asian penis stereotype (haha!)

    0 Asian commenters apply any Black stereotypes except in response to Asian stereotypes in order to prove a point.

    Conclusion:

    Asians are sinister. Umm, ok, whatever.

    Watch your tone…Watch your tone. Watch it well. You hear me ? I’ll hack your godamm head head off !!!!

    I don’t know why you speak to me or any black person like that when you know I’ll kill you for it.

    You missed one – “The Violent Stereotype”

    Na. In all seriousness. I’ve always wondered – Why your are here ? And before you go there. I’d say the same to whites as well. I’m not saying that you should not in any way. But it’s just a genuine inquisitive question.

    I mean assuming your Asian. Right ? I mean. I don’t think it’s fair to sort of play victim on this part. When Abagond has done numerous post not just black racism but also racism to Asians to.

    Like


  171. @Kiwi

    “I concluded from your statement that Blacks have it worse than Asians, to which you claimed I put words in your mouth.”—If YOU concluded it then you are putting words in my mouth.

    “If my conclusion is false, then Asians have it just as bad as Blacks, right?”—Nope. Asians are the new whites. I will put up 4 links highlighting what I said.

    Like


  172. @ TheHipHopRecords

    Why your are here ?

    Same reason you are. Or maybe not. Read my next reply

    I don’t think it’s fair to sort of play victim on this part.

    You apply racial stereotypes and see nothing wrong with it. But if others apply racial stereotypes to you, you’re ready to slit your own wrists. All I can say is that is simply fascinating.

    Like


  173. @ Sharina

    Asians are the new whites.

    THANK YOU for clarifying. I cannot emphasize it enough. This statement alone tells me everything I needed to know about you. I am done.

    Like


  174. I will eagerly await any input by Abagond. He is the last person whose opinion I’m waiting to hear and haven’t heard from yet.

    Like


  175. @jefe

    I firmly believe that each have been discriminated in different ways, so I won’t say it is a matter of oppression Olympics at all. However, the manner of discrimination is a big factor that I seem to look at and I also seem to focus more so on today than past. This is likely where I steered off.

    Today blacks are extremely targeted and I see Asians as being used in that target as well as Latinos and even African immigrants to an extent. For me the use of the “you are better than them” rhetoric creates a disdain of blacks from those other groups. Now this may move way off course to current discussion.

    DEATH and population decimation is one thing and I will admit it was not something I thought of at first, but targeted to me puts focus on the everyday things that happen to blacks. If that makes sense.

    Like


  176. @Kiwi

    Glad you enjoyed my sarcasm. As jumping to false conclusions tell me what I need to know about you.

    Like


  177. Hello THHR,

    When Abagond has done numerous post not just black racism but also racism to Asians to.

    I first came here in 2011 and read through each and every post since 2006. He had indeed done a few posts on Asians in the USA and Asian American history even prior to 2011. Much of it was very good and insightful, but a fair amount of it was skewed or even outright wrong. I did point a few of them out. I noticed that he actually has quietly gone back and revised some of the wording in some of those old posts.

    Around 2012, I sent him a list of about 200 Asian American topics to consider and he indeed has chosen a few to do posts on, plus some he chose himself. I have also contributed some myself. Still, it has only scratched the surface.

    This is probably one of the reasons why we now have a fair amount of anti-Asian racism themed posts now. It is good for everyone, because the information is simply absent from our general education and not covered much in mainstream media.

    We do not have many posts on black-Asian relations in the USA. And I don’t think a single post would do justice on that. That is such a vast topic. But that conversation and discussion is a big hole in US society and a big hole in this blog. More discussion is needed.
    In fact, given the looming standoff in the South China sea and the impact that might have on Asian Americans should the conflict escalate, we need that conversation now more than ever.

    Yellow Peril. Perpetual Foreigner. Model Minority Myth. Traitor/spy/enemy. Menace. Making up bogus information to fill in historical omissions. None of that is healthy.

    We don’t have much on black-Native or Latino- black relations either (there are few related posts). There is nothing yet on Native-Asian relations or Latino-Asian relations that I can tell.

    One thing that comes up over and over on this blog and again in this post is the issue of “Oppression Olympics” — who has it bad, who had it worst, etc. Much of this is not easily comparable. But we need to have that conversation and get through it so that we can get to other issues that affect us more. What is the point of debating who had it worst when many had it bad? There is a lot that blacks, Asians, Natives, Latinos, and even some whites could collaborate on to try to fix in the USA. For example, Hollywood whitewashing and control over the US historical narrative is something we all have to fight for. The establishment does not want that collaboration.

    One reason why we have “Oppression Olympics” is because we all see experience and history from a certain point of view, and a lot of holes remain in our education. We need to fix these first before we can have a healthy conversation about it. This blog does help with that. and it is why I was attracted to it.

    This blog has some content related to Muslims. We still don’t have much on Latino and Native American stuff. I spent a fair bit of time studying black US history and Asian US history, but less on Native and Latino. I am trying to catch up, esp. now on Native American.

    Like


  178. Sharina,

    Thank you for sharing your perspective.

    For me the use of the “you are better than them” rhetoric creates a disdain of blacks from those other groups.

    I agree that this is terrible. That is why I condemn the Model Minority stereotypes, or even racial pecking orders with a vengeance.

    But replying with statements like “Blacks suffered more” or “Blacks are targeted more” does invoke “Oppression Olympics”. I don’t think Oppression Olympics is a healthy thing, esp. when arguments are used which are not exactly true.

    but targeted to me puts focus on the everyday things that happen to blacks.

    yes, maybe that is because that is how you experience life in the USA on a daily basis. It is difficult to empathize with other experiences.

    I personally witnessed all sorts of everyday things to blacks throughout my life in the USA (and I witnessed a lot). Even as a teenager, I would go to the DC public library for hours and pull every book I could find on Jim Crow, and on 19th and 20th century resistance, trying to make sense of it all. Still, I admit that witnessing stuff is not the same as experiencing oneself, and my empathy has its limits.

    And I don’t expect you can empathize easily with being the target of Yellow Peril. Perhaps it is easier for you to empathize with people who express Yellow Peril to others. But that is an ever present danger looming TODAY. I am not sure if there is a way that you can understand this kind of terror.

    Native Americans are the best example of peoples and cultures that were decimated, but without a new source of immigrants. It is very disheartening to try to learn about peoples for whom there are no longer any survivors.

    Like


  179. @jefe

    “ut replying with statements like “Blacks suffered more” or “Blacks are targeted more” does invoke “Oppression Olympics”. —It may invoke it, but if those are the words needed to take a look at how the experiences are different and varied then that is what is needed.

    ” It is difficult to empathize with other experiences.”—It is not a matter of not empathizing with the experience of others because I do, but we all know that those experiences are different and to say they are the same is false.

    For example, a black guy standing on a street corner and an Asian guy standing on a street corner will not invoke the same response from a police officer. That officer will target that black person first with the idea of a suspected drug deal. He may then go to that Asian, but it will likely not be for the same reason and may very well not have the same response. Where that officer would assault that black guy, he may just be pushy rude and force a proof of residency on that Asian guy.

    Now stereotypes play a role here as well. Being a black brute is much more deadly than being a model minority and the stats support that based solely on the amount of black deaths and the common excuse of “he was resisting etc.”

    Now you can look at this as oppression Olympics, but this is reality. It is not me saying Asians experience less, but I am saying that theirs is not the same as blacks.

    Like


  180. Hi Sharina,

    You just contradicted yourself in the prior comment when you say

    replying with statements like “Blacks suffered more” or “Blacks are targeted more” does invoke “Oppression Olympics”. —It may invoke it, but if those are the words needed to take a look at how the experiences are different and varied then that is what is needed.

    then say

    Now you can look at this as oppression Olympics, but this is reality. It is not me saying Asians experience less, but I am saying that theirs is not the same as blacks.

    So you are saying that blacks suffer more, but not that Asians experience less. It is very difficult to make out what you mean exactly.

    If you are focusing on police treatment, then in the aggregate, the experience will be different. Not sure how you extend that to individuals or individual experiences.

    When I was taking a friend (she was a foreign student from China studying in New York and also my college roommate’s first cousin) on a trip to DC, I took her to show her where I used to live as a child in Anacostia, There were cop cars a block down at the next intersection, and I turned in, but immediately pulled back and turned around to go down a different street. The police chased me and pulled me over, made me spread eagle out on the car and frisked me while another went through the entire car. The (white) policeman asked me if the girl was my sister, but then went off, calling me all sorts of nasty names, told me repeatedly that i was a f*kkin’ liar when I explained why I was there, told me not to f*kkin’ move (even to scratch my head) and held me and prevented me from moving (even though, admittedly, I was not beaten and kicked). It was a horrible experience for over 20 minutes in the cold,

    I admit that I probably would not be targeted for that kind of treatment on a regular basis, but I have an idea what it feels like. It is not good.

    I have had police ask me for my passport on the street, even though that is not required by US residents (many of whom do not even own a passport).

    Now stereotypes play a role here as well. Being a black brute is much more deadly than being a model minority and the stats support that based solely on the amount of black deaths and the common excuse of “he was resisting etc.”

    That is the wrong stereotype to compare. The more apt one is “black brute” to “yellow peril / Asian menace”. That is the one that does invoke the most violence and hostility from whites (and many blacks too).

    What’s more, you are referring to people as a “model minority”. That is one of the most villainous tenets of white supremacy in the USA used to keep POC in their place and whites on top. If you are keen on fighting white supremacy, then you would reject that stereotype without question, not espouse it. You would never use it or invoke it and condemn it for the evil that it is.

    Like


  181. Trojan Pam,

    Thank you so much for breaking down the mythology of Model Minority sterotype propped up by white supremacists and conservatives. In private and in action, white folks fear and despise Asians while publicly put a Black/Latino/Middle Eastern face to social problems in America and around the world. Just the recent racist remarks by Peter King shows how much contempt white America hold with regards to Asians and Asian Americans. Trump targeted Asians as well but that’s brushed over in the media.

    Here are several news/blog links:

    http://httpjournalsaolcomjenjer6steph.blogspot.com/2016/05/gop-congressman-said-racial-slur-on.html

    http://us4.campaign-archive2.com/?u=192b498885b13ebfdbba38921&id=84dfa5f967

    http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2015/03/former-housekeeping-director-accused-of-sex-for-hire

    http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2016/04/column-two-schools-same-exploits

    https://stephaniegirl.wordpress.com/2015/04/07/women-in-state-move-ahead-but-remain-behind/

    As for the news media hype regarding Asian women being the first choice by white men, that’s false because ain’t no white man is going to put women of color above white women. White women are still on the pedestal, get more deference, protection and attention from white men than any other group of women in America.

    American media tells lies and it’s very important to counteract the media lies with truths.

    SB

    Like


  182. I understand that this is primarily a black space and that one thing people do here is vent. I don’t mind when the venting is directed at my own race. There’s good reason for that.

    But it’s disturbing to see vents about non-black minorities like the comment by TheHipHopRecords, which buys into stereotypes that have been used by white people to justify discrimination and murder.

    It’s also true that many members of non-black minorities have bought into stereotypes about blacks. Although it may not be visible, there definitely are people in these communities working to educate their own folk about how harmful and divisive these stereotypes are.

    I wish there was an easier way to talk about these issues. It’s really difficult work that dredges up a lot of pain on all sides.

    Liked by 1 person


  183. @jefe

    It is not a contradiction as I have stated several times now that it is not the same. Even in what you quoted it states that not less, but not the same. How else does it need to be explained to give you an understanding of what I have said and continue to say. Frankly at this point it is you who wants to play the oppression Olympics by finding this better than mantra in what I am saying that is not even there. A thing or situation can not be the same and still not be a greater than less than aspect.

    “If you are focusing on police treatment, then in the aggregate, the experience will be different.”—I am not focusing on police treatment it was simply an example of different situations. I am sure that other situations Asian’s may get worse treatment, but it was not to show who got worse. It was to show how they are different.

    ” The more apt one is “black brute” to “yellow peril / Asian menace”. That is the one that does invoke the most violence and hostility from whites (and many blacks too).”—Fine then using that still does not invoke the same responses and really it takes an overseas threat before whites or even blacks respond to the yellow/peril Asian menace stereotype. Hell from my experience alone I have ran into not one black person who holds to that stereotype at all.

    “What’s more, you are referring to people as a “model minority”.—Quote where I referred to anyone as a model minority? And this will be the second time I have asked you to quote where I said something and you proceeded to take the conversation in a new direction instead of quoting it. I don’t even believe in the model minority, so why would I refer to anyone as it? This is not like how you clearly stated that black people were more protected and that was quoted as your words.

    Liked by 1 person


  184. @Solitaire

    I agree with you, but there needs to be honesty on the fact that Asians are not really doing all that they can as a whole and blacks really are not trying to build that bridge. For those small groups of Asians that are trying they have a struggle of trying to connect with blacks, but it is also the struggle of knowing that few Asians will try at all.

    There was an Asian commenter a while back that stated this fact before.

    Like


  185. @ Sharina

    Oh, I defintely agree. There needs to be more reaching out from both sides.

    One component that I think is a big part of the issue is Asian Americans haven’t even seen themselves as a cohesive group until relatively recently. What fighting and protesting and legal battles they did in the past were mostly by individual ethnic groups, not by an over-arching Asian American coalition. They haven’t had the same history of a cohesive identity. So they still have a lot of work just in building bridges with each other. This is also true to some degree with Native Americans, and I think also with Hispanics.

    Another component is that, if I remember my stats correctly (and I’m sure Jefe will let me know if I’m wrong), immigration accounts for the majority of the growth in the Asian American population. I believe this has been the case since the immigration laws changed in 1965. So for 40 or 50 years, there’s been a continual wave of people entering the Asian American community who are unfamiliar with the history and struggles of that community. Even after they arrive, they aren’t being taught any of that history in their citizenship classes, and their kids aren’t being taught it in school. I know that I’ve heard similar complaints from African Americans about African immigrants: that they don’t understand the history or the issues or the nuances, that they can’t be counted on to stand with the larger African American community in civil rights struggles. Imagine what it would be like if immigration from African nations was so great that their numbers far surpassed native-born African Americans, that they were by far the largest sector of black America, and that the white media presented African immigrants as the face of black America and looked at all black issues and protest through that lens. Right now for Asian American activists, it isn’t just a matter of transmitting the history down to the next generation but also to the continual influx of newcomers.

    And really the blame for all this division should rest squarely on the heads of white people. We’re the ones that came up with these stereotypes to begin with, and we’re the ones who continue to promulgate the stereotypes through mass media and in the schools.

    Liked by 3 people


  186. @Solitaire

    I don’t want to put the blame solely on whites. I know this sounds weird, but at some points people of color have to acknowledge the role they play in believing that. Yes, whites created it and yes they keep the divide, but the question is why do people of color still buy into that divide even when exposed to otherwise?

    Liked by 1 person


  187. @Sharina and @Solitaire

    You both made excellent points. Thank you both.

    Issues of identity are complex and sometimes present us with contradictions.

    Sharina, your observation, “why do people of color still buy into that divide even when exposed to otherwise?” points to the need for a better educational system that stresses critical thinking skills.

    Of course, our country’s educational and media system seem to be moving in the opposite direction….

    Like


  188. @ Sharina

    I do agree with that statement, too, although I’m afraid it will sound wrong coming from a white person. I know my spouse would agree with you as well.

    “the question is why do people of color still buy into that divide even when exposed to otherwise?”

    Do you have any thoughts or opinions as to why that may be?

    Like


  189. @Afrofem

    Thank you and I agree that this countries education and media systems are moving in an opposite and damaging direction. Which is why it is important to start looking into a way to better educate our children to avoid the pitfalls. My kids attend public school, but are taught alternative lessons at home. Lessons that include, but are not limited to black and Latino achievers.

    Like


  190. I understand that this is primarily a black space and that one thing people do here is vent. I don’t mind when the venting is directed at my own race. There’s good reason for that.

    But it’s disturbing to see vents about non-black minorities like the comment by TheHipHopRecords, which buys into stereotypes that have been used by white people to justify discrimination and murder.

    It’s also true that many members of non-black minorities have bought into stereotypes about blacks. Although it may not be visible, there definitely are people in these communities working to educate their own folk about how harmful and divisive these stereotypes are.

    I wish there was an easier way to talk about these issues. It’s really difficult work that dredges up a lot of pain on all sides.

    Chinese people don’t look at black people as their brothers. Even Tiger Woods..

    I’ll say this – Until you’ve visited Asia, it’s impossible to understand just how fascinated Asians are with whiteness.

    We (Me and another black guy and two white guys) went to the Philippines about 8 years ago and straight at the Airport we walked past several kiosks advertising skin lightening cream for women.

    Every single advertisement on the streets features white models, half-white models.

    Anyway this white guy who I travelled with and a few others opened up an account on FilipinoCupid. I swear he would have gave Justin Bieber a run for his money for the amount of attention he got from women and this was just a regular Jimmy Kimmel looking white guy.

    He started getting dozens of messages from Filipinas a day. Getting them to show up on dates was as simple as telling them he was going to be in their and asking what their number was.

    One girl he met off of FilipinoCupid went batsh*t crazy when he first texted her. Five minutes after he contacted her, she tried calling him three times in a row, and when he didn’t pick up, she sent him another three texts.

    When they finally met for coffee (I was there low key in the background) she was grovelling apologizing to him for being late, laughing at all of his bad jokes, and repeatedly reminding him that they should “spend as much time together” as they could before he returned to the home to the UK.

    He suspected that some of the women he slept with were trying to get pregnant just so they could have a half-white baby. He asked a few girls what they’d do if he got them pregnant (abortion is illegal in the Philippines) and they all told him they’d raise the baby on their own without telling him.

    Now keep in mind that these were all college-educated, middle-class women (Doctors, Teachers) he met via FilipinoCupid or gaming on the road

    Like


  191. @Solitaire

    “Do you have any thoughts or opinions as to why that may be?”—I have always viewed it as a form of protection. Curry favor with whites to avoid their backlash or garner their favoritism, but maybe others can add better insights on why.

    Like


  192. @ TheHipHopRecords

    And is that all you learned about the PI while you were there? Do you know anything about the history of white colonization in that country? Do you know about the wars Filipinos fought in resistance to that colonization? Have you read anything by Jose Rizal?

    I’ll spare you my opinion of men from First World nations who go to Third World nations looking for sex.

    Like


  193. @ Sharina

    Glad you enjoyed my sarcasm.

    Oh, so was it sarcasm when you said:

    “I would also add that they (Blacks) dealt with the brunt of racial discrimination.”

    then added:

    “I am sure that other situations Asian’s may get worse treatment, but it was not to show who got worse.”

    Blacks bear the brunt of racial discrimination but Blacks don’t have it worse. And that’s not a contradiction? Okay, whatever you say.

    brunt
    brənt/
    noun
    the worst part or chief impact of a specified thing.

    Like


  194. @ Sharina

    Probably there are a number of reasons. You’ve made a good point, and so has Afrofem. Another potential reason that my spouse has talked about is how the white powers-that-be like to act as if there is a small pie for all minorities. Like: “Here’s X amount of money that we’ve always allocated for diversity programs, and now the Native American students have protested because there haven’t been any programming for their history and concerns, so we have to take some of this money away from the other minority groups to use for this new program.” Instead of, you know, allocating more funds so that all the old established programs can stay intact while introducing a new one. He feels there’s a prevalent belief among each minority group that they have to protect their sliver of pie from the others. That pie may not always be money; it could be amount of space given in history textbooks, political power, media presence, whatever. And he does believe that at least some white people in power are doing this on purpose to encourage division and hamper coalition-building.

    Like


  195. @Kiwi

    I never said any of that was the use are sarcasm, but if you are going to use it to twist what a person say, then don’t be mad if it gets used right back.

    “Blacks bear the brunt of racial discrimination but Blacks don’t have it worse. And that’s not a contradiction? Okay, whatever you say.”—It isn’t but then again jump to your own conclusion.

    Key word in your definition “specified thing.”

    Like


  196. of sarcasm* says*

    Like


  197. @ TheHipHopRecords

    Just to be really clear, my (unstated) opinion about sex tourism is not strictly a female thing. There are gay men who travel to Third World countries for sex as well. My opinion of them is the same.

    Like


  198. @ Sharina

    Key word in your definition “specified thing.”

    “I would also add that they (Blacks) dealt with the brunt of racial discrimination.”

    Specified thing=racial discrimination

    In other words, Blacks dealt with the worst part of racial discrimination. No?

    Like


  199. @Solitaire

    Good point. I never thought about it like that. Who would not want to protect their interest.

    I agree with your husband. I think some political powers do it on purpose with the idea of protecting status quo.

    Like


  200. @ TheHipHopRecords

    The more I think about your last comment, the angrier I get. You’re busy bashing Asians on this thread for cozying up to whites, but you hang out with white guys whose idea of a good time is to go to a country that’s been exploited and impoverished by white colonialist oppressors to see how much p**tang they can get???

    Why are you hanging around with white guys who have a colonialist racist mindset?

    And who are you then to spout off about cozying up to whites?

    Liked by 2 people


  201. In reply to my post to Afrofem about the Civil Rights era,

    Sharina said:

    “I would also add that they (Blacks) dealt with the brunt of racial discrimination. Not discounting the struggle of Asians, but it was not the same.”

    Notice “dealt” and “was”, both past tense.

    Then she shifted it to:

    “Blacks suffer police brutality and death now and have for a long time. Asian internment camp was years ago and really is hard to compare to an ongoing issue.”

    Notice “now” and “ongoing”, both about the present.

    Cherry picking or goalpost shifting?

    Like


  202. @ Kiwi

    No, not the worse part but a great deal of it in their own right just as Asians do in their own right, but own right is not the same. This is my last comment to you. That is one sentence of the many things I have said in regards to my position and like all things you go all the way back (did not address it then) just to find an argument, then twist to what you already believe. You have drawn your conclusion and you expect me to sit and explain something to a mind made up? You do this every time and in the past I ignored it because I understood your point, but this is just ridiculous and overboard. You are purposely missing my point.

    Don’t ever comment to me again.

    Good day and good night.

    Like


  203. @ Sharina

    The idea is not original to him (I honestly don’t know who first noticed it and wrote about it). But he says that he sees it in operation all the time. He thinks a lot of times it’s behind the Oppression Olympics: groups argue about who suffered more because whoever wins the Oppression Olympics gets a bigger slice of that pie the white man’s serving up.

    That’s a big part of the problem: white people by and large still hold the pursestrings, still control the media, atill write the textbooks, still make up the largest group in Congress, etc. As long as white people are divvying up that pie, some of them are going to amuse themselves by making POC beg for the pie, fight each other for the pie, perform Oppression Olympics for the pie. There are two strategies to circumvent this: one is to be aware of what is happening and refuse to fight over the pie. The other is to gain control of the pie.

    Liked by 2 people


  204. “Cherry picking or goalpost shifting?”—Neither but we all know how you like to present a false analysis to vilify people.

    Like


  205. Kiwi, man, you need to learn to pick your battles.

    Like


  206. @ Solitaire

    Kiwi, man, you need to learn to pick your battles.

    Sharina said Blacks bore the brunt of racial discrimination, which means exactly what it means, that Blacks have it worst. I take people’s words at face value and now I’m the one who needs to learn to pick my battles?

    What’s worse (and you wouldn’t know, since you’re White) is how Sharina applied the Model Minority stereotype, repeatedly and unapologetically, despite being called out on it by not one, but two Asians. I found it simply disgusting, and to me, it revealed her true colors. She was never an ally to begin with and am glad to wash my hands of her.

    Like


  207. jefe makes a statement about Whites “protecting” Blacks, and the worst is seen in him as he is given flak for it even though he clearly meant something different.

    Sharina makes a statement about Blacks having it worst (b/c that’s what “brunt” means), and gives me flak for it even though she originally meant exactly what she said.

    All I can say is hypocrisy.

    Like


  208. @ Kiwi

    I stand by what I said. You can dismiss it if you like for whatever reason you like. I’m not disagreeing with your argument but your communication style. I’m saying there’s a point at which you’re alienating potential allies, not educating. Winning the battle while losing the war is an ineffective strategy.

    Like


  209. @ Kiwi

    You’re spending all this energy fighting with Sharina, who has allied with you in the past, over definitions and wording. Meanwhile you’re pretty much ignoring TheHipHopRecords, whose idea of a vacation is to travel with a bunch of white racists to an impoverished Asian country to see how many g**ks they can bang.

    Who’s worse, Kiwi? Who is deserving of all the venom you can dish out?

    Liked by 1 person


  210. @ Solitaire

    Sharina is not a potential ally. I realized after she espoused the Model Minority stereotype repeatedly. I understood only after I tried pointing it out to her just to get resistance and a refusal to own up to it.

    What makes it impossible to believe that any of what she said can come from a good place is that she said Asians experience less racism only to later slyly shift her argument to “Oh, I meant Asians experience racism differently”. I’m not stupid. I can read and I can tell when someone is being dishonest. I just never thought it would be her.

    But I’m starting to realize that it’s probably 90% of people, so maybe I set the bar too high. As I’ve pointed out before, even jefe can be like that. Sometimes, though, I wonder if, like jefe stated, even Abagond believes the stereotypes of Asians at some level.

    Liked by 1 person


  211. @Solitaire

    I agree and it is a very good point. While groups are fighting for that slice, they have to realize that they will never really get that slice.

    I know for me I agree that all groups are oppressed. Even whites to some extent are oppressed by this system of white supremacy. The thing is that the oppression is different. If that makes sense.

    “one is to be aware of what is happening and refuse to fight over the pie. The other is to gain control of the pie.”—This is why I am a strong believer in POC building their own to move away from reliance on whites. POC are stuck in mental chains of white supremacy and are afraid to even attempt to branch away from it.

    Like


  212. @ Solitaire

    Who’s worse, Kiwi?

    Is that like one of those questions that White liberals ask people of color when given the choice between them or White conservatives?

    Sharina is just as bad as TheHipHopRecords.

    Like


  213. @ Kiwi

    Personally I think some people are capable of growing and learning. That doesn’t mean they’re always going to be exactly in agreement with you. Sometimes people will be very resistant to an idea in an initial argument during the heat of the moment, but they go away and cool down and replay everything in their mind and think it over, and they start to change. Seeds planted start to grow.

    I feel like lately you’ve been sowing salt and watering with a flamethrower. Maybe that’s just where you’re at right now, dealing with the anger over all the injustice. I don’t know.

    Liked by 5 people


  214. @Solitaire

    Trust when I say he pulls that same line always. Get to a point of disagreeing with him and he will vilify and claim “I thought you were honest etc.”

    Then in another thread he will bring in your name to use it to vilify another.

    Like


  215. @ Solitaire

    It is not mere disagreement. Sharina was very specific about a claim she made repeatedly and when jefe and I both pointed it out as counterfactual, instead of owning her words, she shifted her meaning and claimed I put words in her mouth. She doesn’t want to learn. That’s the problem.

    Her commitment to racial ideology and identity politics outweighs her openness to accepting new information.

    Like


  216. @ Sharina

    “I am a strong believer in POC building their own to move away from reliance on whites.”

    Definitely a good long-term plan. Something to work for. I think the other strategy is useful for the here and now.

    Like with the example I gave? What usually happens is all the groups start fighting over whose funds are going to get cut so the Native American History Month program can happen. But if those groups stand united and say, “No, you need to increase the amount of student fees that goes towards diversity programs to make this happen,” sometimes they get what they want. And if the adminstration refuses to give more money, then it’s much more effective if the groups can still keep a united front and sit down together and ensure that each group sacrifices an equal amount of their funds while simultaneously looking for new sources of funding in the short term to keep all the programs running, as well as continuing to keep pressuring the adminstration for more diversity funding.

    Like


  217. @ Solitaire

    I know you’re just trying to mediate and be helpful, but what you’re saying basically boils down to the tone argument.

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/07/24/the-tone-argument/

    Like


  218. @ Sharina
    @ Kiwi

    I’ve said my say. I have had good discussions with you both in the past, and I’m not going to get involved in this disagreement anymore than what I’ve already said. It does hurt me to watch, but that’s my issue.

    Liked by 1 person


  219. @Kiwi

    I know I said a prior comment was my last, but your issues need to be addressed.

    “she said Asians experience less racism only to later slyly shift her argument to “Oh, I meant Asians experience racism differently”.”—-I never said that. Even in my first comment to you I said it was not the same. You are equating not the same and brunt with one being less. That is all YOU. YOU are your own problem. I am not your problem. You keep hammering on this idea that I am using the model minority, but all that is based on YOUR idea that I said Asian experience less racism.

    Keep my name out of your mouth. I don’t want to be part of your continued circus of delusional ideas of “Asian hate” you think most if not all black commenters here have.

    Like


  220. @Solitaire

    I am sorry for even involving you as that is not my intention, but I know how this goes and it goes as always with him. I should just ignore.

    Like


  221. @ Kiwi

    Actually, because of cross-posting, I am going to say one more thing to reply to your last. I never said I had a problem with your tone. You can holler all you want as far as I’m concerned. There is quite a lot of injustice to holler and rant about. What I’m noticing is that (1) other people are having issues with your tone and (2) you’re not picking your battles. That’s all.

    Like


  222. The more I think about your last comment, the angrier I get. You’re busy bashing Asians on this thread for cozying up to whites, but you hang out with white guys whose idea of a good time is to go to a country that’s been exploited and impoverished by white colonialist oppressors to see how much p**tang they can get???

    Why are you hanging around with white guys who have a colonialist racist mindset?

    And who are you then to spout off about cozying up to whites?

    Dude. All white people (IMO) have a colonialist racist mindset. You do realise this is a post about Asian people. Right ? So Asian people are going to get talked about. Right ?

    Me ? Cozying up to whites ? You should get on your knees and kneel to me and beg me for forgiveness for saying that.

    Even armies at war, have peace time to talk to each other. My individual interactions with whites means nothing as to how I see the broader picture and just for record I’ve probably had closer friendships with Asians than I have had whites.

    You act like Asians are above criticism

    Like


  223. @Solitaire

    That is a good idea, but is it selfish to want more than just a month? That could be an ultimate goal for more. Getting community leaders to sit down and make that a prime agenda would help. The continued support for funding to programs will break barriers must faster than the expected conversations of how to move forward. However, with the black community it is hard to find any leader that unites. A good deal of blacks want the leader that appeals to whites.

    Like


  224. @Sharina

    “My kids attend public school, but are taught alternative lessons at home. Lessons that include, but are not limited to black and Latino achievers.”

    Your kids are fortunate to have a parent as aware as you about the need for enriched educational experiences.

    Liked by 2 people


  225. @ Solitaire

    “There are two strategies to circumvent this: one is to be aware of what is happening and refuse to fight over the pie. The other is to gain control of the pie.”

    A third possible alternative is to learn how to bake your own pie. That way you are never dependent on others for a slice.

    Liked by 4 people


  226. @Solitaire,

    You brought up 2 excellent points:

    One component that I think is a big part of the issue is Asian Americans haven’t even seen themselves as a cohesive group until relatively recently. What fighting and protesting and legal battles they did in the past were mostly by individual ethnic groups, not by an over-arching Asian American coalition.

    and

    Right now for Asian American activists, it isn’t just a matter of transmitting the history down to the next generation but also to the continual influx of newcomers.

    There is still not a strong sense of a pan-ethnic Asian American identity and we continuously have a new generation of immigrants and their children who know nothing about Asian American history, know little about the history of blacks and Native Americans in the USA and learn little, if any, through the educational process.

    I think the first and most important thing that any activist must do is educate among the various ethnic groups and to each set of newcomers about Asian American history, the current and historical attitude of whites towards them, and about the history and current experience of blacks and Native Americans in the USA as well.

    This is what has to be done and it is not being done. Meanwhile, Hollywood and the media fill in the gaps.

    Like


  227. I will call it a night but I will leave this questions here in response to this:

    “This is what has to be done and it is not being done. ”

    Why is it not being done? What factors are hindering this progress?

    Like


  228. @ Sharina

    she said Asians experience less racism…

    I never said that.

    “Asians are smaller, but their discrimination is not at the level of blacks

    You keep hammering on this idea that I am using the model minority

    “their (Asians’) lack of involvement in protests today and their acceptance of model minority stereotype.”

    The fact that you still refuse to own your words is simply disgusting.

    Like


  229. @ Sharina

    she said Asians experience less racism…

    I never said that.

    “Asians are smaller, but their discrimination is not at the level of blacks

    You keep hammering on this idea that I am using the model minority

    “their (Asians’) lack of involvement in protests today and their acceptance of model minority stereotype.”

    The fact that you still refuse to own your words is simply disgusting.

    Like


  230. @ TheHipHopRecords

    “Me ? Cozying up to whites ? You should get on your knees and kneel to me and beg me for forgiveness for saying that.”

    Not gonna happen. Not all white men think its fun to go to Third World nations to f*ck the natives. You’re picking the bottom scum of the racist colonial barrel to pal around with.

    You never answered my main question: did you learn anything about the colonial history of the PI? Do you have any concept at all as to why that country got the way it is?

    Like


  231. @ Solitaire

    There is quite a lot of injustice to holler and rant about.

    Except when it’s Black-on-Asian racism. While you do a fine job of calling it out, I’ve noticed there’s a one-sidedness to race relations on this blog. People accept that Whites are racist towards people of color and that non-Black PoC can be anti-Black but the one issue that is like a hot potato is Black-on-PoC racism. When you raise the topic, it’s the same deflections, downplaying, and all around moral blindness you always see from Whites when accused of racism. I find it all rather sad.

    Like


  232. @ Afrofem

    Excellent point. There may be other effective strategies as well.

    Like


  233. TheHipHopRecords’ comments are a great example of how it’s not just non-Black PoC who kiss up to Whites and bash on other races.

    Like


  234. @Sharina

    Which is why it is important to start looking into a way to better educate our children to avoid the pitfalls. My kids attend public school, but are taught alternative lessons at home. Lessons that include, but are not limited to black and Latino achievers.

    This is indeed a good idea. Do you do this yourself, or do you arrange for external people to do this?

    Maybe you could take one of those lessons that you give to your kids and do a post to share here?

    As Solitaire mentioned, Asian Americans, by and large, do not usually think of themselves in pan-Asian ethnic terms and each new generation of Asians in the USA are not even aware of Asian American history or US society attitudes towards them. They are not aware of where attitudes towards Latinos and blacks comes from and they do not even think of the Native Americans at all. They need those alternative lessons, but no one is there to give them to them.

    Like


  235. @ Kiwi

    I’m not going to disagree with that. My question is, does the tone argument apply when minorities are in discussion with each other? I tend to think of it more as a way that majority people shut down minorities. I’m sure one minority can also use it to shut down another. But because you are talking to other people who also suffer from white oppression and who may find it very painful to consider the possibility that they carry racial stereotypes, perhaps tone should be a consideration? That is, if you want to have effective communication. And I mean this in all directions, not singling out blacks but saying Native people can hold racial prejudices, Asians can, Hispanics can. Because there is so much pain here, there is so much of a very human tendency to want to deny and ignore, that it may be better to tread carefully and with compassion and understanding. And especially to reach out to anyone you find on the other side of that divide who extends that same carefulness, compassion, and understanding.

    Like


  236. @ Sharina

    “That is a good idea, but is it selfish to want more than just a month?”

    No, not selfish at all. Ideally all of this should be integrated seamlessly and thoroughly into the curriculum, not segregated into individual months. It’s been quite the battle just to get those months, but it doesn’t have to stop there.

    “However, with the black community it is hard to find any leader that unites. A good deal of blacks want the leader that appeals to whites.”

    Now imagine how this difficulty increases with a multiracial group trying to pick a mutually agreeable leader! But it needs to be done and there are people out there doing it. I just happen to live with one, so it’s more visible to me.

    Liked by 1 person


  237. @ Jefe

    “They need those alternative lessons, but no one is there to give them to them.”

    And I think there is a conception that Asians tend to live together or at least near each other. Chinatown, Little Saigon, and all that. That it would be easy for this information to be taught to the newcomers.

    But there are immigrants who get plopped down in tiny all-white communities in Minnesota or Idaho or Tennessee, whether it’s because they’re refugees being sponsored by a local church or physicians who have agreed to work in an underserved rural community in exchange for financial aid. They may be the only Asians for miles around, maybe the only minorities. There’s not any established Asian American community nearby to teach them and their children about the history.

    Like


  238. @ Solitaire

    I’m sure one minority can also use it to shut down another.

    Yes, that’s why I brought up Oppression Olympics, which we see Blacks deploying often on this blog. Even in Asian activist circles, I’ve noticed this idea that Black issues come before everyone else’s, including their own. While it’s well-meaning, it is also a condescending view and wrong on so many levels. I believe it in fact undermines the causes of non-Black minorities and furthers their own marginalization. That’s why I shared a link on the Welcome to Asian American History Month 2016 thread that dismantles the false and narrow Black/White dichotomy paradigm of race relations.

    jefe mentioned how part of this is the result of alternative voices (ie: non-Black PoC) being killed off and thus having few people left to tell the story but I was dismayed to see the way he was almost shouted down instead of being listened to and understood. Some of this comes from the idea that Black people’s issues have primacy and deserve to be front and center, ie: the face of racial oppression as a Black one and all others as secondary. Sometimes I notice Abagond doing it, too. Hell, even I’ve done it. *cringe* Even my school does it. In the cafeteria, we have a gigantic mural on the wall of numerous famous Black historical figures… but none from any other race. And this is at a school that is majority Asian! In this zealous display of art that intended to give a voice to an underrepresented minority, they forgot the other more prominent minority right in front of them. Why?

    I’m not complaining about the attention Black Americans get, because it’s obviously not enough, but I still know the view of race as a mainly Black/White dichotomy pushes aside other groups and limits the scope and range in our understanding of American race relations. I just want to bring attention to the fact that Black people are not the “gold standard” of dialogue on race relations. It is a misguided and dangerous view that too many fall into.

    For reference, I subscribe to Andrea Smith’s three pillars of American white supremacy:

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/11/02/the-three-pillars-of-american-white-supremacy/

    Notice Abagond made a point to mention three pillars, not one pillar. What does that tell us?

    Like


  239. @ TheHipHopRecords

    “You do realise this is a post about Asian people. Right ?”

    Nope. It’s a post about an argument white people make using stereotypes about Asians.

    Like


  240. @ Solitaire

    It is also an argument Black people make.

    Like


  241. @ Solitaire

    When jefe made his comment about Whites “protecting” Blacks, he prefaced his statement with this:

    It is because most of those that fought white racism (ie, Asians, Native Americans) are pretty much gone. They fought with their lives.

    Of course, many blacks fought with their lives. But their numbers also increased during that entire time. Which means they were not targeted for genocide like the other groups. Regardless of how many blacks paid with their lives, it is a fraction of many of the other groups.

    Part of the reason is because there is still a remnant from pre-Civil war days when blacks were largely a form of property, or source of free or cheap labour. They were worth more alive than dead. Not so with the other people.

    This ties in with Andrea Smith’s point about Blacks being valued by Whites more for their labor whereas other groups were valued more for their land (ie: Natives) or were seen as an outside threat (ie: East Asians). Since White supremacy’s needs varied by race, the policies varied. For Blacks it was slavery whereas for the others, it was war and genocide.

    Like


  242. @ Kiwi,

    Again, I don’t disagree with anything you’re saying, and I’m familiar with the dynamic you’re talking about. But I think this goes back to the pie metaphor I used earlier. There’s a tendency–a very understandable tendency–for black people to feel that if they make room at the table for other minorities, they’re going to have to give up some of their pie, that very tiny pie that they’ve fought so hard and long for, that pie that is so small it really isn’t enough for themselves. It’s very easy for everyone trying to crowd around at that table to forget who it is that decided the tiny pie is all they get, to elbow and punch each other instead of rising as one, walking to the counter, grabbing the white restaurant owner, and demanding a larger pie that will feed everyone satisfactorily.

    Yelling at white people often is a wake-up call that they need. But all minorities have been yelled at by white people, and stepped on, and ordered around, and it gets so, so tiring. You may find better results if you modulate your tone in respect of that. Be gentle with each other. I know you’re going to say that you don’t always get that type of treatment here, but there are ways to point that out without responding in kind. There are some people you may have to write off because they never will give you that good treatment, but you don’t have to fight them tooth and nail all the time. Ignore them. Concentrate on those who treat you decently. Work on helping each other grow, strengthening each other for the real fight.

    Liked by 1 person


  243. @ Kiwi

    “For Blacks it was slavery whereas for the others, it was war and genocide.”

    Right, but don’t forget there was massive death on the Middle Passage and cultural genocide as blacks were forced to lose their African languages, etc. Which may be why some people reacted very strongly to Jefe’s statement.

    I do think there’s a valid point to be made of the connection between population numbers and involvement in movements for civil rights. But this is the type of pain that I’ve been talking about throughout this thread. There is so much pain. Black people are going to very understandably feel pain over leaving out the genocide of the Middle Passage. You and Jefe very understandably feel pain over the erasure of the genocide against Chinese Americans in the West. It helps to talk more gently, to acknowledge that pain and that loss. It isn’t the same as tone with white people. We’re the effing oppressors, we need to learn how it feels to get our feelings hurt.

    Like


  244. @ Kiwi

    “It is also an argument Black people make.”

    It is an argument white people invented.

    Like


  245. @ Solitaire

    You may find better results if you modulate your tone in respect of that.

    For the record, Sharina was rude first. Scroll up. I tried being gentle. But you will find that I retaliate and merely mimic other people’s behavior toward me. If I came across as disrespectful, you will have to forgive me for being a copycat.

    There are some people you may have to write off because they never will give you that good treatment

    I agree with you 100% here. That’s why I don’t fret over losing “potential allies”. If someone applies a racial stereotype and denies having done so even after having it kindly pointed out, that means they were never an ally to begin with.

    Like


  246. @ Solitaire

    I just find it bewildering that all I ever did was call out others on racial stereotyping, here and on other threads, and now I’m being told to police my tone. Really? I guess the Ferguson protesters should have policed their tone.

    Like


  247. @ Solitaire

    It isn’t the same as tone with white people. We’re the effing oppressors, we need to learn how it feels to get our feelings hurt.

    Interestingly, I only partially agree here. As of 2016, in the US, yes, White people are the biggest oppressors. But to say that people of color themselves do not have the capability or potential to oppress is a condescending view. The fact that minorities, historically and presently, partake in the oppression of other races, often alongside Whites, makes that clear.

    I actually agree with Sharina:

    I don’t want to put the blame solely on whites. I know this sounds weird, but at some points people of color have to acknowledge the role they play in believing that. Yes, whites created it and yes they keep the divide, but the question is why do people of color still buy into that divide even when exposed to otherwise?

    I actually know the answer. And so many are going to hate it even though we all know it’s true:

    People of color (yes, that’s us) are just as bad as White people are.

    Like


  248. @ Solitaire

    It’s very easy for everyone trying to crowd around at that table to forget who it is that decided the tiny pie is all they get, to elbow and punch each other instead of rising as one, walking to the counter, grabbing the white restaurant owner, and demanding a larger pie that will feed everyone satisfactorily.

    And then what? Historically, as soon as the incumbent oppressor falls from power, another rises to take his place. As soon as the White owner gets removed, a frenzy will break out as the Asian, the Black, and whoever else scramble to take his place and have the chance to screw over the others, just like the White one did.

    Like


  249. @ Kiwi

    “But you will find that I retaliate and merely mimic other people’s behavior toward me. If I came across as disrespectful, you will have to forgive me for being a copycat.”

    I’ve noticed you’ve been copycatting and turning other people’s phrasing back around on them. You did that frequently in the Peter Liang thread. But I think a lot of people didn’t notice, or if they did, it didn’t matter to them because they were too angry about what you said, or what they thought you said. Which in my book makes it an uneffective mode of communication if your goal is to make change instead of just pIssing people off. Now that is to some degree on them, but it is also on you for not communicating in a way that people would be receptive to. In my opinion, it comes back to picking your battles and choosing the best tools. DId you want to pIss people off? Or did you want to explain and convince?

    And again I think this could be a great technique to use on a majority-white forum, but not so much here.

    “If someone applies a racial stereotype and denies having done so even after having it kindly pointed out, that means they were never an ally to begin with.”

    See, that’s taking it to a greater extreme than I meant. Of course, that’s for you to decide; I’m not going to dictate where your cut-off line is. But it is d@mn hard to grapple with internal bias; we all want to deny it. Kiwi, you would not have recognized me at 21. To use an unrelated example, I held all sorts of stereotypical beliefs and ideas about LGBT people. I wasn’t virulently homophobic, but I said things and used words that it now makes me cringe to think about. One of my friends started to challenge me on my language, and it took her repeated attempts, very patient explanations and reasoning, over and over again, to get me to rethink my stance and to stop saying those horrible homophobic slurs. She could have just given up on me after the first time I insisted, “But I don’t mean it that way, it just means the same as loser or jerk or@sshole.” She could have decided I wasn’t an ally and was never going to be an ally and written me off. She didn’t, and that made all the difference.

    “As of 2016, in the US, yes, White people are the biggest oppressors. But to say that people of color themselves do not have the capability or potential to oppress is a condescending view.”

    Everyone has the capability or potential to oppress. Everyone has the capablity or potential to choose to do better. Everyone has the capability or potential to work towards ending all oppression.

    Like


  250. all those creepy White American serial killers!

    People might have thought that was a joke, but when I brought one of my HK friends to his first USA trip, before and during the trip he talked incessantly of those creepy white serial killers. When we were in poor black neighborhoods, he did not feel alarmed at all, but each time we pulled into a gas station, he started feeling nervous, saying we have to watch out as those serial killers hide out at gas stations, and might abduct you or try to kill you.

    Me? I am most concerned about the police.

    Like


  251. @ Kiwi

    I just wrote a long reply and the internet seems to have eaten it. On the other hand, it may have gone into moderation. I was getting ready to try to rewrite it, but now I think it may very well have gone into moderation, so I’ll hold off for now.

    “And then what? Historically, as soon as the incumbent oppressor falls from power, another rises to take his place. As soon as the White owner gets removed, a frenzy will break out as the Asian, the Black, and whoever else scramble to take his place and have the chance to screw over the others, just like the White one did.”

    And then what? WE WORK TO BREAK THE CYCLE. It’s the only thing we can do. The cycle has to end.

    Like


  252. @ Kiwi

    I’m shutting down for the night. Keep an eye out for that post. If it went into moderation, it may not show up until the morning when Abagond sees it. If not, when I get up tomorrow I will try to reconstruct it.

    Like


  253. @ Kiwi

    Oops, on the other hand, it just showed up. Really glad I don’t have to rewrite all that.

    Will talk more with you tomorrow.

    Like


  254. @Solitaire,

    I appreciate all the attempts you are making to mitigate the atmosphere.

    BUT,

    When you say things like this, it also creates a very bad feeling with me, as if you are adding fuel to the Oppression Olympics fire:

    Black people are going to very understandably feel pain over leaving out the genocide of the Middle Passage.

    After slavery was abolished, many of the ships that were used ship Africans around the world were used to ship Asian coolies in the same conditions. Many, if not the majority, died on those “slave ships”. Looking at the numbers, there were 4-5 times as many Asian coolies shipped around the world as Africans, implying that many many more Asians died on those trips than Africans.

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/06/02/coolies/

    I am the first one to condemn the Oppression Olympics bandwagon as I think it was all terrible, but please do not add fuel to this divisive fire by dividing up blacks and Asians in this way. This is an opportunity to build bridges, not burn them.

    Like


  255. Getting back to the original post, I know the following was supposed to be satire, but actually, I think it is true.

    Hollywood films, which are seen worldwide, should have mostly Asian heroes. They should be Asian even in cases where the original character was non-Asian, because that is what sells! For the same reason, they should make feel-good Asian Saviour films where a nice Asian person saves helpless White people. It is not racist, it is just business.

    I do think that if they made a film about an Asian hero whipping the ass of bad white people and an Asian saviour coming to save the innocent white victims (or even black victims) that it would be a super hit in Asia. if Hollywood producers really wanted to make money, this would definitely sell.

    A lot of Hollywood movies have added Mandarin dialogue to their films in recent years, but it is always in the context of Chinese helping (white) Americans, and sometimes in the context of the white hero getting the Asian girl. I cannot help but believe that those choices are governed more by the need not to offend white sensibilities rather than the need to make money in overseas markets.

    Like


  256. @THHR

    Cozying up to whites ?

    That is EXACTLY what you do.

    Liked by 1 person


  257. @Solitaire

    but don’t forget there was massive death on the Middle Passage

    Which may be why some people reacted very strongly to Jefe’s statement.

    2 things:

    1. Please don’t forget that that there was even more massive death on the Transpacific and TransIndian passage, as I mentioned above.

    2. I never actually made that statement. I said that other people’s statements tend to support that argument.

    Like


  258. @Solitaire,

    And I think there is a conception that Asians tend to live together or at least near each other. Chinatown, Little Saigon, and all that. That it would be easy for this information to be taught to the newcomers.

    I am sure you realize that is simply a concept that is not true in reality. It is anything but easy.

    What is your suggestion to this problem (and also to the problem of being plopped down in those regions of the country which do not have many Asians)? Multilingual online support? Do we need more resources on Asian American history in Asian languages and possibly also in Spanish?

    Like


  259. @ Jefe

    I’m very sorry, on both accounts.

    Like


  260. @Kiwi

    What is disgusting is the fact that you have for several post now done nothing more than put words in quotes and attribute them to me. And once again decided to pull a new quote you want to claim means something that it clearly does not. You have been trying so hard to find quotes that say something I did not to the point where you are just creating quotes.

    You really are just showing yourself to be a clear liar with little to no dignity. Yet so desperate for my attention. Even Gro jo have better tact.

    @Abagond

    What is my limits on having your relative Asian racist no longer contact me?

    Liked by 1 person


  261. @Jefe

    “Do you do this yourself, or do you arrange for external people to do this?”—This is mainly done on my own, but I have been reaching out to our Hispanic relatives for more input lately. Mainly because of scheduling.

    “Maybe you could take one of those lessons that you give to your kids and do a post to share here?”—I could, but I must admit I am very self-conscious about my writing ability.

    I don’t think no one is, but rather they may not be interested in listening. When my friend, who I will refer to as N, moved to the US from the Philippines. For the longest she lived with other Filipinos before her and her family had their own. She later moved her sister in. She helped prepare her sister for what to expect etc. This was similar with my father-in-law who moved and lived with family in the US. They talk and learn this way. This is why it is not entirely true to hammer the idea of they don’t have, when that aspect is not entirely true. They have, but they may also choose to find their own way or not listen.

    This is why that less population argument does not hold because Native Americans have less population than Asians and still tell their stories. They still are strong activists. Granted they are not having an influx of Native immigrants coming in, but this does not mean all is lost.

    Not to nitpick, but this is what you actually said:

    Actually, this actually supports the idea that historically white people tend to protect blacks more. They were less likely to be killed for their protests.

    This does not seem to indicate the other people arguments supporting this as you keep claiming. This indicates that the idea is supported by the less deaths of black people. If the interpretation is wrong cool, but it does not look that way.

    ” am the first one to condemn the Oppression Olympics bandwagon as I think it was all terrible, but please do not add fuel to this divisive fire by dividing up blacks and Asians in this way..”—And the first to engage in it when convenient, so it is a bit unfair to tell solitaire that it creates a divide when you do it.You are using the amount of death as a crunch to say it was worse, but you are not looking at the many aspects of the situations. They were different.

    Liked by 1 person


  262. Kiwi Lie exposed

    “For the record, Sharina was rude first. Scroll up.”

    This is where the snide remarks started based on a non-acceptance of what was said about population:

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/the-asian-supremacy-argument/#comment-315433

    Me: “No. I will agree when someone can show me a situation or story etc. But I will never agree that population plays as much of a role or even a role at all in the reason for a high level of discrimination against blacks.”

    Me: No, because they don’t like in the US when the discuss is about actions in the US. I don’t doubt he has, but I also don’t have proof he has. What I have proof of is white American citizens murdering or attacking Muslims in the USA.

    I never said Asians don’t have it bad. So Again do not try to impose a false model minority argument on me that I never made. I said several times it is not the same and it is not.

    The aggression increases: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/the-asian-supremacy-argument/#comment-315491

    Me: I never said Muslims are or are not, but I do know Muslims are all race of people. I also know that the Muslim tact is a deflection from the actual issue presented, which had nothing to do with them and was about Asians and Blacks. If you want to go on in another direction fine, but it will be alone.

    “You said they are targeted less, which means they they don’t have it as bad.”—Quote where I said that versus you putting words in my mouth or bringing about a false conclusion based on what you want to believe.

    More aggressive and imposing:https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/the-asian-supremacy-argument/#comment-315512

    Me:No, the quote doesn’t. It is clear on what part I said vs what you drew a conclusion of. You have to start separating what you think vs what is being said. IF you are not going to do that then you will repeatedly find yourself putting about a false argument that is not being made. A false idea that is not being presented.

    “So crime isn’t a Black thing but being apolitical/apathetic is an Asian thing. I see.”—This is a clear straw man and you know it. Once again trying to put words in my mouth on something I never said.

    More aggressive:https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/the-asian-supremacy-argument/#comment-315516

    The list goes on as he increases in aggression and my responses stay the very same.

    I do not wish to engage, but I surely am not going to allow you to make up a lie so you can become the victim of do unto others as they do unto you. I was never was rude as can be seen in this exchange. You became hostile because it was not your way. If this was one time thing then it would garner a benefit of the doubt, but you always do this.I watched you do it with Jefe, Anne, Linda, Fan…, Afrofem, pumpkin, villagewriter, and the list goes on. You become nasty rude and aggressive and then turn around and magically talk about trust and believing people were honest etc. You are a damaged and toxic person. I get that your experiences may have made you that way, but you have to address your issue.

    Like


  263. The exchange between mainly Sharina on the one side and Kiwi + Jefe on the other side… hum… and Solitaire on the third side, is interesting and I tried to follow it in its entirety.

    There are many sides in the discussion but I want to concentrate only in one that, despite been mentioned en passant at first, became quickly one of the main topics of it. And it is: Who has it worse in a White dominated society like the USA, Blacks or Asians?

    In my humble opinion Blacks have it worse than other non-Whites when it comes to racism in White dominated societies:

    1. This is why people speak about a color-hierarchy and not about a binary system with Whites in one position and everybody else in another position. The system has more than two grades and Blacks are positioned at the bottom;

    2. One simple test could show that most people are aware of the above mentioned hierarchy; try to ask anybody – an Asian person, for example – what he/she would think about the prospect of swapping his/her current status as an Asian and to assume the status of a Black person? Would he/she be happy with it or…not? I am almost sure that most would answer this question with a no, no way! and that would show that they know that their current status is better than that of Blacks.

    Liked by 6 people


  264. @munubantu,

    Did you ask any black person if they wanted to switch current status with an Asian, esp. a male? what kind of answers did you get from that?

    Like


  265. I dont think coolies = transatlantic slavery but its interesting how sharecropping, company towns, etc like warfare became economic along with the industrial revolution.

    Like


  266. The following is from Fight the Tower facebook page regarding the denial of tenure to Cynthia Wu:

    “After receiving unanimous support from her department of English, Dartmouth still denied her tenure. Dartmouth has one of the whitest percentage of faculty in the US.

    ‘Cynthia Wu, an associate professor of transnational studies specializing in Asian American studies at the State University of New York at Buffalo, wrote to Hanlon to ask him to reconsider the tenure denial, saying, “for many of us in the field of Asian American studies, this is not an individual matter. It is systemic.” In 12 years as a professor, she wrote, “I have witnessed the dismantling of Asian American studies through institutional refusals to retain faculty who teach and do research in this area. … I lament that so many specialists in Asian American studies have fallen through the cracks because of these institutional failures.” One cause of such failures, she wrote, is that faculty members who specialize in fields that foreground race, gender and sexuality often have above-average teaching and service workloads. “Students disproportionately seek us out for mentoring,” Wu wrote. “We are disproportionately called upon to serve on committees pertaining to diversity initiatives. This increased workload undoubtedly impacts our ability to spend as much time on our research as our peers.” Another reason is that research on race, gender and sexuality “has less cultural capital,” Wu said. “To put it bluntly, it is less respected. It also tends to be interdisciplinary and, therefore, misunderstood in an academy that fiercely defends its disciplinary boundaries despite lip service to the contrary…'”

    What this tells us that despite the positioning of Asians over other peoples of Color in the white supremacist system, the powers that be do not treat Asians as equals.

    SB

    Liked by 1 person


  267. @ Sharina

    “I don’t think no one is, but rather they may not be interested in listening. When my friend, who I will refer to as N, moved to the US from the Philippines. For the longest she lived with other Filipinos before her and her family had their own. She later moved her sister in. She helped prepare her sister for what to expect etc.”

    I understand your point, but from what I’ve seen, new immigrants stay with other immigrants, not 2nd or 3rd or 4th generation Asian Americans. The people the new immigrants move in with may have been here longer, and they may be able to pass on all sorts of information about adjusting to daily life in the U.S., but they generally do not have a strong knowledge of the history of Asian Americans, the history of African Americans and other U.S. minority groups, race relations, and the civil rights struggle.

    Like


  268. @munubantu

    ” One simple test could show that most people are aware of the above mentioned hierarchy; try to ask anybody – an Asian person, for example – what he/she would think about the prospect of swapping his/her current status as an Asian and to assume the status of a Black person? Would he/she be happy with it or…not? I am almost sure that most would answer this question with a no, no way! and that would show that they know that their current status is better than that of Blacks.”

    Thank you for cutting through bloated rhetoric and multiple specious statements with a simple test.

    Liked by 1 person


  269. @ Jefe

    “I am sure you realize that is simply a concept that is not true in reality. It is anything but easy.”

    Yes, I thought I had implied as much in my wording, but I see now it wasn’t written as clearly as it could have been. You would know more about Chinatowns, etc., than I do, so I’m a little hesitant to speak on that. During the time I lived in California, it seemed although there were some places designated as Little Saigon, Little Manila, etc., it was very obvious that most Asian Americans lived elsewhere, scattered throughout many different neighborhoods. Some of the Chinatown-type areas weren’t even residential but more commercial and/or touristy.

    “What is your suggestion to this problem (and also to the problem of being plopped down in those regions of the country which do not have many Asians)? Multilingual online support? Do we need more resources on Asian American history in Asian languages and possibly also in Spanish?”

    That is a real stumper. Online resources would be a great way to provide information to those in isolated white-majority areas. Material written in home languages would be beneficial as it is more comfortable to access complex information in one’s first language regardless of fluency level in a second language. (Maybe programming on Asian-language TV as well, but that would cost more; there are more logistical hurdles to jump to make that happen.) But once that material is formulated, how do you then spread awareness that this material is available on the interent? How do you spark interest in that material?

    Like


  270. @Solitaire

    “I understand your point, but from what I’ve seen, new immigrants stay with other immigrants, not 2nd or 3rd or 4th generation Asian Americans.”— I agree that generally that is the case, but it can and does happen otherwise.

    I will go into detail a bit later, but I am curious on further aspects of it and if it can be lumped into simply not knowing the history and not having someone to tell it or…… can it also be a matter of not interested in it?

    Like


  271. Sharina,

    The 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation ones are telling the stories. Have you been to any of the Japanese or Chinese American history or heritage museums? I have been to the Chinese American history museums in New York and San Francisco more than once. There is now a Delta Chinese history and culture museum in Cleveland, Mississippi.

    Look up Mark Him Lai. He is one of the most famous Chinese American historians in SF who passed away a few years ago.
    Also John Jung, who has actually posted comments on this very blog has amassed a terrific amount of information and resources. I consulted his websites do, and I have been in contact with him.

    I also am personally connected to the original establish of APA Heritage month and met Congressman Horton, who introduced the bill into Congress

    I also have been to both National museums of the American Indian in DC and NY and in my last trip to the USA I traveled all around Southern Maryland to find out what I could about the Piscataway Indians and met with tribal leader of one of the main bands. I happened to go to High School with her. I attended part of the United National Indian Tribal Youth conference last year. I also have been reading books, trying to learn as much as I can. I will spend time in the Vine Deloria, Jr library on my next trip to the USA.

    So, I have been devoting a lifetime to this, reading and telling these kinds of stories. I support it with all my heart.

    But if I try to broach this subject with recent immigrants, they will be tone deaf.

    Your comparison between Native American and Asian American (with the possible exception of Japanese Americans) is wrong. As Solitaire explained to you, the new Asian immigrants do not get their information about Asian American history and culture or about black and Native American history and culture from, say, 4th generation Asian American “elders”. Immigrants who have been in the USA for 20 years may never have heard of the Chinese Exclusion Act or the Japanese American Internment or even Vincent Chin. They may not know about Jim Crow or about which people lived in their neighborhood before white people.

    Like


  272. @stephaniegirl,

    Does Dartmouth have a tenured professor in black or African American studies?

    Like


  273. @Sharina,

    OK, here goes.

    When you quoted “Actually, this actually supports the idea that historically white people tend to protect blacks more. They were less likely to be killed for their protests.”
    I never stated that white people tend to protect blacks more, I stated that statements by others, including yours (eg, your belief that Asians are more conformist and quiet), supported that idea. I definitely do not personally believe that whites necessarily tend to protect blacks more. I did not make that statement.

    The second sentence is true however. Both Native Americans and Asians were more likely to be killed for their protests (at least in relative terms). It should be common knowledge, or something very easy to look up, but in case you cannot find the information, let me know. I already recommended a good book to you.

    Like


  274. On THIS thread I am enforcing a 24-hour moratorium on Kiwi and Sharina saying anything about the other and the other’s comments. In the meantime they are free to interact with other commenters.

    Whatever value their interchange had at first, it has long since become tedious and confusing and overly personalized.

    Liked by 2 people


  275. To me this thread has been a textbook illustration of:

    1. What a dead end Oppression Olympics are.

    2. How the model minority stereotype divides Black and Asian Americans.

    Liked by 1 person


  276. @ Sharina

    “can it also be a matter of not interested in it?”

    It can be. I don’t want to make a blanket statement for all Asian immigrants, but there certainly is an issue of convincing an immigrant that it is essential information to learn when s/he has so much else to deal with. Jefe touched on that in his comment above about being tone deaf.

    But there’s also the aspect of trying to teaching this history to their kids, the 1.5ers and the native-born children of immigrants. A lot of them don’t encounter Asian American history until college, many not even then.

    Liked by 1 person


  277. @ Kiwi

    “Even my school does it. In the cafeteria, we have a gigantic mural on the wall of numerous famous Black historical figures… but none from any other race. And this is at a school that is majority Asian! In this zealous display of art that intended to give a voice to an underrepresented minority, they forgot the other more prominent minority right in front of them. Why?”

    Well, you can ask “why” here, or you can do something about it. Have you said to anyone at your university in a position to do anything about it: “Hey, this mural is great, but we Asian American students would also like a mural representing our struggles and our leaders.” Do you know whether there are any student groups already involved in trying to make this happen? Are you active in any Asian American and/or multicultural student groups that advocate for diversity issues?

    Like


  278. Part of the model minority stereotype is that Asian Americans are apolitical. That is no accident. The stereotype was born in 1966 in the pages of the New York Times as an argument AGAINST the civil rights movement.

    Like


  279. @Jefe

    “Have you been to any of the Japanese or Chinese American history or heritage museums?”—I have not and this is not to say I have a lack of interest. I generally do not go to museums period due to a belief that they sugar coat the real struggles.

    “Your comparison between Native American and Asian American (with the possible exception of Japanese Americans) is wrong.”—If that is wrong then I would equally say using population as a means to explain away discrimination or lack of information is also wrong.

    “As Solitaire explained to you”—I did not disagree with her, but that is not always the case either. Are you saying there are not some immigrants who come here to stay with 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th generation relatives?

    This is the statement by theHipHopRecords that prompted that statement correct? “are a lot more conformist and quiet (In general)”

    You stated “yours (eg, your belief that Asians are more conformist and quiet”—This is not my belief and a provided link shows it as his, but I have spoken on occasions about Asian activists and I have shared an issue they have shared, which is a lack of Asian involvement. https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/the-asian-supremacy-argument/#comment-315467

    None the less, nothing in that or anything said by others supports the idea of “Actually, this actually supports the idea that historically white people tend to protect blacks more. They were less likely to be killed for their protests.” However, I accept your explanation of what you meant by it.

    “I already recommended a good book to you.”–Yes, I ordered it yesterday. It should arrive Monday.

    Like


  280. @ Abagond

    “Part of the model minority stereotype is that Asian Americans are apolitical. That is no accident. The stereotype was born in 1966 in the pages of the New York Times as an argument AGAINST the civil rights movement.”

    So for the white author(s) of the 1966 article to make that argument, they had to ignore any historical evidence that Asian Americans had been politically involved and had fought against racism and for civil rights. Their argument wouldn’t have held if they had acknowledged that history. Is that correct, or am I misreading you?

    Liked by 2 people


  281. @Jefe

    Cozying up to whites ?
    That is EXACTLY what you do.

    Right. So I’m getting a white man accusing me of being an Uncle Tom. I don’t even know where to begin with that one (lol)

    I don’t hate white people. I don’t hate Asians. The same way I don’t hate Tigers but I understand a Tigers nature. Tigers kill. It’s not personal. It’s just their nature.

    I understand that whites and Asians are racist towards black people to the point were it’s almost become natural.

    And even though Asians are racist towards blacks people, I’m fully aware that they learnt from the best…..white people.

    Like


  282. @ Solitaire,

    Maybe you can help with some insight here.

    I also find it tiresome that Kiwi often seems to find excuses to pick fights here, focusing on catching people on words and spewing it back at them. Sometimes he jumps to sideline arguments and tries to argue those. I am not sure why. Or maybe the threshold for him is just that low. I agree that it is not that helpful for intergroup (or even interpersonal) communication and relations.

    But, gleaning through the chaff, there is one point that he makes that I admit I have felt and noticed my entire life.

    I have witnessed horrible treatment of blacks since my early childhood and have been at the crossroads of the conflict between black and white for as long as I can remember. I have shared that I grew up in Anacostia, DC and PG county, MD and every single neighborhood I ever lived in growing up became hyperblack, and it is where I spend my time when I go back to the USA. I can also remember being in Alabama during the reign of Gov. George Wallace. It was enough to move me to realize that the encyclopedias and textbooks we used in school and the rhetoric we heard in a white church were screwed up and I made a serious effort to go find out what happened, as I know I could not rely on the media or the schoolbooks. And I stopped going to white churches.

    But I also witnessed many times when blacks and whites appeared to team up with each other to oppress Asians, or I would see blacks seemingly embrace the stereotypes that whites had about Asians that they used to keep the white supremacy system intact. They would repeat the very same tropes or behaviours that whites used to oppress and control Asians. Later, when I paid enough attention to notice, I saw the same things being done to Native Americans and Latinos too. This is one reason that I expressed a few years ago that sometimes, to me, whites and blacks often seem more alike each other, embracing a common mainstream Anglo culture, as well as the tenets and tropes of white supremacy. Some blacks (not all) will rant about white oppression (and rightfully so) while simultaneously embracing white supremacy and racism against other groups, often using white invented stereotypes. I couldn’t figure out why it was so pervasive, except that they must too possess a colonized mind and have no idea what they are doing. Another reason is the very binary viewpoint of race in America that many hold.

    I noticed you used the term “Cozying up to white people”, but, as that might sound offensive to some people. Maybe I could say it is accepting, embracing, assimilating the very racist tropes that whites use to maintain White Supremacy.

    I admit that some Asians do the same thing and I hate it. I also have seen and heard it over and over again. Just last year, in HK no less, I was at a rooftop party of a Chinese Canadian (from Vancouver) who just stated that American blacks were better off in the USA than Africa and they should be thankful they were in the USA (ie, it was unreasonable that they should be ungrateful). I immediately responded that what he said was horrible and wrong on so many levels and he should be happy that no black person was present at his party or he might get his head chopped off. I asked him if he had ever actually learned anything about African American history. Unfortunately, I had to stop there as it was his place and he was the host, but I avoided talking to him the rest of the evening.

    Now, you recognized that the commenter above was performing behaviour reflective of “cozying up to white people” and performing the same racist behaviour that white people do, while denying it in the same breath. But, believe, me, he is not the worst offender. Several dozen commenters have done the same thing or worse on this blog and deny it in the same breath. Even Abagond used to do it from time to time, but admittedly, he has improved considerably after being called out on it. Besides this, I have seen it thousands and thousands of times in real life.

    Chris Rock did it at the Oscars. Is it just panning to white audiences or does he actually believe the white racist tropes that he was spewing out?

    Since your husband has worked in interracial and interethnic relations at many institutions and in the community, I am sure he has encountered it many times. Asians do it to blacks and Latinos, Blacks do it to Asians and Native Americans and Latinos do it too. How does he handle it? Has he ever been able to make any progress on it? Frankly, besides calling people out on it, or trying to find some data or research to attempt to educate people, I am at a loss at what to do.

    Like


  283. @Solitaire,

    (Maybe programming on Asian-language TV as well, but that would cost more; there are more logistical hurdles to jump to make that happen.)

    I watched on youtube a show that was presented in a 5-part series (actually part of even a larger series on the Chinese diaspora around the world) on the history of Chinese in the US and Canada — in Cantonese. Of course, it focused on only certain topics, and left out a lot, eg, on Chinese-Black relations and it stopped with Vincent Chin. It did talk a little bit about Chinese-First Nations relations in British Columbia. There was very little on the post 60s brain drain. Anyhow, it was still very good and it was entirely in Cantonese.

    I imagine that there have been documentaries in Japan about the Japanese diaspora (in USA, Brazil, Peru, etc.) and maybe in other countries as well. I don’t see why they could not be shown in the USA.

    Like


  284. @ gro jo

    Comment deleted for making personal remarks about another commenter’s sex life.

    Like


  285. What a dead end Oppression Olympics are

    Abagond, are you considering doing a post on Oppression Olympics? It has been around at least as long as the Model Minority Stereotype, but you have already done a post on the latter.

    Like


  286. @ Jefe

    “Abagond, are you considering doing a post on Oppression Olympics? It has been around at least as long as the Model Minority Stereotype, but you have already done a post on the latter.”

    Wow! You read my mind!

    Like


  287. @Solitaire

    So for the white author(s) of the 1966 article to make that argument, they had to ignore any historical evidence that Asian Americans had been politically involved and had fought against racism and for civil rights.

    Have you read either the New York Times magazine article (re: Japanese Americans) or the US News and World Report article (re: Chinese and Japanese Americans, but mostly the former). I believe the first one was in January and the second one in October.

    I don’t think that they mentioned too much about their resistance. They mentioned that they are not in the streets protesting for their rights or rioting or destroying property. Under the Teflon view of history, all that resistance was ANCIENT HISTORY, if it even happened in the first place.

    I used to have an online link to the articles, but I think they became broken. I believe that I copied the documents somewhere.

    Like


  288. Abagond,
    Your hypocrisy, is noted.

    Like


  289. @ Jefe

    “Since your husband has worked in interracial and interethnic relations at many institutions and in the community, I am sure he has encountered it many times.”

    Yes. It has happened to him, he’s seen it happen to others, he’s mediated between parties where neither race is white or Asian.

    “Asians do it to blacks and Latinos, Blacks do it to Asians and Native Americans and Latinos do it too.”

    Everyone does it to everyone. Then throw LGBT, women, religious minorities, and people with disabilities into the mix. Sometimes he feels like he’s constantly explaining one minority to another, putting out fires between underrepresented groups. Trying to create a safe space for all of them together is his goal, but many times it feels impossible.

    “How does he handle it?”

    Years and years of experience, training, research, and study, and he still doesn’t feel like he has a firm handle on it. How he approaches any given conflict depends greatly on the specific individuals and situation. He follows certain models of mediation, diversity training, and intercultural communication that he has found effective. I don’t know that I’m competent to explain those in detail.

    He invests a lot of energy in the upcoming generations, working with all of the underrepresented student groups on intersectionality, understanding each other’s history, challenging their own biases, looking for common ground, building coalitions.

    When it happens to him personally? He tries to choose the right moment to bring it up, often lets it pass in the heat of the moment and broaches it with the individual(s) or group later. Sometimes he decides it’s a battle not worth fighting and pushes it under the rug. He comes home very angry and very hurt, rants for a couple hours and then cries.

    “Has he ever been able to make any progress on it?”

    Progress in increments. Some individuals more than other. Not some races or some minorities more than others. Certain individuals across all the groups seem more receptive than others. Not sure why.

    “Frankly, besides calling people out on it, or trying to find some data or research to attempt to educate people, I am at a loss at what to do.”

    I wish I could help you on that. It is a big question in the field. From what I can gather, the main focus is on education and how best to communicate so that people will be receptive instead of defensive.

    Like


  290. @ TheHipHopRecords

    “So I’m getting a white man accusing me of being an Uncle Tom.”

    Oh, no. I’m accusing you of being much worse than an Uncle Tom. During your ceasefire in the racial wars, you aided and abetted your white enemy in their exploitation of brown people.

    Were those Filipinas even people to you? Or just numbers on a tally sheet?

    Like


  291. @Jefe

    “Oh, no. I’m accusing you of being much worse than an Uncle Tom. During your ceasefire in the racial wars, you aided and abetted your white enemy in their exploitation of brown people.

    Were those Filipinas even people to you? Or just numbers on a tally sheet?
    Exploiatation of women ?”

    *Exploitation of brown people ?*

    Trust me those Filipina chicks were more than wiling to have sex with a white guy. Indeed some of them are still contacting him to this day

    As for me. I was not really their cup of tea

    Like


  292. Different and not the same, I’m not sure how differentmeans worse than, Hmm. Interesting commentary. I’ve seen this pattern before from various commenters *the reparations thread* comes to mind.

    My2C: Asian supremacy is a fallacy as Trojan Pam so eloquently spelled out above. I know in my experience the Asians that I went to school with were athletes, science geeks, great dancers and horrible at math. Human just like the rest of us. Only getting to know people on a regular basis will help combat stereotypes.

    Liked by 4 people


  293. (the Asians) *sarcasm *just a hint there, I hope y’all don’t mind.

    Like


  294. @THHR,

    You quoted Solitaire’s statement. Was your reply to her?

    But she’s right. Your behaviour was way worse than any Uncle Tom’s. And you cozy up much more to whites and have assimilated more white supremacist attitudes and tropes way beyond anything I have ever contemplated. And yet you appear completely in denial to it. That’s the interesting thing.

    Like


  295. @ Jefe

    He has absolutely no understanding of colonialism and its legacy. No way to put what he experienced in the PI in context.

    Like


  296. @ Jefe

    Just watch — I don’t think he realized I was a woman. He’s most likely going to veer off into a sexist red-pill rant next.

    Like


  297. @lifelearner

    “Human just like the rest of us. Only getting to know people on a regular basis will help combat stereotypes.”

    Good point, lifelearner.

    Coming in contact with and developing relationships with a variety of people helped me see other people as people.

    Liked by 1 person


  298. O. So Solitaire is a woman ?

    *The Plot Thickens*

    Like


  299. @Jefe

    You quoted Solitaire’s statement. Was your reply to her?

    But she’s right. Your behaviour was way worse than any Uncle Tom’s. And you cozy up much more to whites and have assimilated more white supremacist attitudes and tropes way beyond anything I have ever contemplated. And yet you appear completely in denial to it. That’s the interesting thing

    Yeah. I got you two mixed up. It was meant for Solitare.

    You just don’t like the fact that I’m pointing out that there are many Asian ass lickers to whites but when I point this out you accuse me of being lower than an uncle tom.

    If anything that’s the number one white supremacist tactic you are using right there, that is, trying to make you look as bad as possible.

    Like


  300. The Asian superiority argument falls apart once you look at the massive poverty that exits in some Asian countries. If intelligence is the prerequisite for economic achievement then the rates of poverty wouldn’t be as high as they are. Instead what raises people out of poverty are access to capital and unhindered markets. China’s move towards a form of capitalism has raised millions out of poverty even though their are still 82 million Chinese living in poverty.

    Hip Hop said,

    “The Asian menace must be resisted. We cannot allow them any more control over our lives.”

    I think I’ll try to unpack this a bit. HipHop’s bias is rooted from his experience and shouldn’t be dismissed solely for its perceived racism.

    During the 1992 Rodney King riots a lot of Asian business were target by looters or set on fire. The police retreated and Korean American business owners armed with assault rifles and pistols protected their business and properties from looters.

    Fast forward today and Asian owned Black hair supply shops, locale convenient markets (that sell over priced food and do payday loans) ect are still operated in mostly Black communities and their is some animosity about that. You can’t empower your community if your dollars are getting sucked up and sent to a different community.

    What that points to is the lack of economic empowerment and capital access that Black communities are not able to qualify for. And the reason for that is not the lack of Black entrepreneurship but rather the resistance of banks to do loans, the underlying systemic racism within the U.S., and the continual harassment against Blacks by police and state agents. If people have access to markets and capital that provides a path for upward mobility.

    The higher up the color coded racial hierarchy you go, the more access to capital is available. It is White supremacy that has put Asians near the top of the hierarchy as “model minorities” since the civil rights era.

    Taotesan said,

    “Here, in South Africa, though, are disparate population groups of Asian descent who have varying degrees of antipathy towards Africans, some granted honorary white status:”

    Like in the U.S., racial hierarchy is meant to benefit Whites when its convenient and empowers white economic hegemony. Even Gandhi supported racial segregation and believed Indians were superior to Black South Africans. But he got that opinion from White South Africans.

    Sharina said,

    “It is not an assumption that blacks are targeted more. It is a reality. Being targeted differently still allows for a comparison. That does not become obsolete because one is different from the other.”

    What she is talking about are the levels and scale of oppression today in the U.S. and how they differ between Blacks and Asians. So while it’s historically true that in the U.S. Asians have been slaughtered and dehumanized it is not how the U.S. society is ordered today. Are Asians discriminated against ? Of course. But the majority of incarcerations are directed at Black and Hispanic communities not Asians. The U.S. government interferes with Black empowerment on a community level but leaves Asian communities alone.

    But as Jefe points out, that could change if things go south in the China sea. The U.S. military build up their shows American preparation for such an event.

    The problem with using the “oppression olympic” argument is that it presumes that all racial and gender oppressions are equal in form and scope. It presumes that Western patriarchy is as equal as the religious patriarchy institutionalized in Saudi Arabia which denies women’s rights and does not recognize rape. The expression was invented by white feminists to deflect away from their own privilege when conversing with women of color. It doesn’t take into account that privileges within racial/gender hierarchies do vary and simplifies the intersectionality of race, gender and class as being linear.

    In this thread the oppression olympics have been used against Sharina’s statements because of this idea that racism is structurally horizontal.

    Liked by 4 people


  301. @Michael Jon Barker

    ” The expression [“oppression olympic”] was invented by white feminists to deflect away from their own privilege when conversing with women of color. It doesn’t take into account that privileges within racial/gender hierarchies do vary …In this thread the oppression olympics have been used against Sharina’s statements because of this idea that racism is structurally horizontal.”

    Interesting point.

    The late Dr. Ronald Takiki, author of A Different Mirror described the racial hierarchy in America as the “terracing of oppression”.

    According to him, everyone but wealthy, White, Christian, heterosexual men found themselves on some level of the oppression terrace. The further you were from that pinnacle, the lower you fell on the oppression terrace and the more you experienced multiple types of oppression.

    Some people lowest on the terrace, like Black transsexual females, get hit with serious, life threatening oppression from multiple sources on a daily basis.

    Liked by 6 people


  302. Correction:

    Dr. Ronald Takaki

    Like


  303. @ Michael Jon Barker

    “The expression was invented by white feminists to deflect away from their own privilege when conversing with women of color.”

    Source?

    Like


  304. @ Michael Jon Barker

    Are you referring to Elizabeth Martinez?

    Like


  305. @Solitare

    ‘In 1993, the phrase “oppression olympics” was coined by feminist author and activist Elizabeth “Betita” Martínez to challenge the idea of the “hierarchy of oppressions” when addressing inequalities faced by minorities.[13]”

    http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/oppression-olympics?full=1

    Like


  306. @ Solitaire

    To clarify it’s unclear to me whether Elizabeth Martínez came up with the that expression to criticize white feminists who were using a line of argument to shut out women of color criticism or whether she didn’t hold to racial hierarchy as a lens to view society through. She has written some works on white supremacy that is pretty standard stuff but she doesn’t mention racial hierarchy as being a part of white supremacy.

    Like


  307. Sharina said:

    “If this was one time thing then it would garner a benefit of the doubt, but you always do this.I watched you do it with Jefe, Anne, Linda, Fan…, Afrofem, pumpkin, villagewriter, and the list goes on. You become nasty rude and aggressive and then turn around and magically talk about trust and believing people were honest etc. You are a damaged and toxic person. ”

    VERY WELL SAID, Sharina!!!!!

    That “list” of people that he becomes nasty, rude and aggressive with extends to an inordinate number of regular commenters here over an extended period of time in an overwhelming number of topics/threads.

    He’s never met an argument that he could resist! Or, a poster that he would not deliberately insult.

    Damaged and toxic? <— Understatement!

    Dude needs to handle his issues.

    Liked by 2 people


  308. @ Michael Jon Barker

    I have always understood that as a Latina she was responding to the black/white model of racism.

    From the foreword of De Colores Means All of Us:

    “Her overall message is one of coalition building among groups subject to social domination–be they Black, Asian-American, Latino/a, Native American, gay, lesbian or white working-class–in what must become a more collaborative fight for social justice at every level. Evoking a term that will be recognized by many who have hears her speak, she urges us not to engage in ‘Oppression Olympics,’ not to create a futile hierarchy of suffering, but rather to harness our rage at persisting injustices in order to strengthen our opposition to an increasingly complex system of domination, which weaves together racism, patriarchy, homophobia and global capitalist exploitation.”

    Google Books will not let me access her actual essays in this book, and I do not have a hard copy at hand.

    https://books.google.com/books?id=kDRyVxjcmdcC&pg=PP3&lpg=PP3&dq=elizabeth+martinez+de+colores+angela+davis&source=bl&ots=OFlnzxpLSa&sig=FvZWGPJ_VoL1klx3SGY8pMBNOPI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiitrbTmuLMAhUL2IMKHdXQDeIQ6AEIQDAL#v=onepage&q=elizabeth%20martinez%20de%20colores%20angela%20davis&f=false

    For her own voice, see also:

    http://www.indigenouspeople.net/blackwht.htm

    http://ccs.ihr.ucsc.edu/inscriptions/volume-7/angela-y-davis-elizabeth-martinez/

    At any rate, you wrote: ““The expression was invented by white feminists to deflect away from their own privilege when conversing with women of color.”

    I wanted to correct this mischaracterization. The term was–to the best of my knowledge and from everything I have ever heard–invented by Elizabeth Martinez to encourage inclusion of more voices and coalition-building across all underrepresented groups.

    Liked by 3 people


  309. @Fan

    I didn’t get a chance to say it at the time, but you nailed it in your comment upthread:

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/the-asian-supremacy-argument/#comment-315474

    Thanks!

    Liked by 1 person


  310. re: michaeljonbarker’s racial hierarchy theory

    I actually used to be a subscriber to this theory for a long time, but I noticed some peculiarities that kept popping up:

    1. Internalized racism among Blacks is relative to Whites. When Blacks lighten their skin or straighten their hair, they are approximating the White form, not Asians. When Blacks pull their eyes into slants, they are not trying to be Asian. They are mocking Asian features.

    2. Americans are more open to the idea of a Black president than they are to an Asian president. This is due to the Model Minority stereotype and the Perpetual Foreigner stereotype. The former paints Asians as apolitical and the latter means Asians are seen as less American than Blacks.

    3. Assimilative behaviors among Blacks trend towards White folkways, not Asian ones. Blacks speak English, the “default” language, not Asian ones. Blacks who say “ching chong” make this clear. Christianity is dominant, not Eastern religions. Blacks do not convert to Asian religions like Buddhism to assimilate.

    4. American wars in Asia aligned Blacks with Whites against Asians. Black Americans were united with White Americans against a common, outside enemy: the Yellow Peril. Asians were seen as the menacing outsiders. Blacks took part of national struggles against an Asian “despised other”.

    5. Andrea Smith’s three pillars of American White supremacy. Abagond listed anti-Black racism, anti-Native racism, and anti-Brown racism alongside one another as tenets that support White supremacy. He did not point to anti-Black racism as central or even as more important than the others.

    There are likely more, but I think this gets the point across.

    Like


  311. @ Kiwi

    I deleted your comment.

    There is a moratorium currently in effect between you and Sharina:

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/the-asian-supremacy-argument/#comment-315668

    Please do not comment on her, her comments or address her till tomorrow afternoon (eastern US time).

    You can talk about what others have said, but in the meantime keep her out of it.

    Thank you.

    Like


  312. @ Solitare

    Maybe if I reword my statement to say this:

    “The argument is used by white feminists to deflect away from their own privilege when conversing with women of color.”

    That I have seen before in discussions.

    I was trying to find her original piece where she penned that term so as to get the right context but I haven’t been able to locate it on line.

    Like


  313. @lifelearner

    “Different and not the same, I’m not sure how different means worse than, Hmm.”—I want to say that people are programmed to believe different equals bad, but after several posts I am not sure how said poster missed that without simply choosing to.

    @MJB

    “What she is talking about are the levels and scale of oppression today in the U.S. and how they differ between Blacks and Asians. “—-Exactly. There needs to be an understanding that there is a difference. This is the same issue I took with LOM and his Irish were slaves too argument. He constantly took the act of enslavement and believed that it was the same as black slavery. He refused to account for the different dynamics and only saw any opposition as saying that “Irish had it better”. We can also look at laws that give police officers the right to check immigration status of those they suspect. A lot of whites, including a small group of Hispanics argued that the law would check anyone. Some argued that it was to catch the illegal immigrant criminals from across the border. Truth is it was aimed primarily at Hispanics. Even if others, blacks or Asians, would get stopped and caught under that law it still is true that Hispanics would be the primary target. That still does not mean that blacks or Asians have it better, because as has been mentioned blacks would get police target for the suspected idea of committing a crime and Asians for the idea that they might be a perpetual foreigner.

    Liked by 2 people


  314. ” For that matter, I also wonder what kind of answer Blacks who pull their eyes into slants, say “ching ching”, comment on Asian men’s penis sizes, or served in Vietnam would give.”

    .

    You just stay in your extremely over exaggerated super-disingenuous mode, don’t you, Colonel Straw-man?

    Let’s now look at who actually made the initial comment about a diminished ASIAN anatomical part.

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/the-asian-supremacy-argument/#comment-315153

    Liked by 1 person


  315. @ Michael Jon Barker @ alia

    I was wrong about Google Books. Follow the link above, click forward to the table of contents, then click the link for essay #2 “Seeing More Than Black and White.” There you can read for yourself the definition and explanation of “Oppression Olympics” as coined by Elizabeth Martinez.

    Liked by 2 people


  316. @ Solitaire

    you asked:

    Were those Filipinas even people to you? Or just numbers on a tally sheet?

    TheHipHopRecords:

    Trust me those Filipina chicks were more than wiling to have sex with a white guy. Indeed some of them are still contacting him to this day

    As for me. I was not really their cup of tea

    Is it just me or does TheHipHopRecords seem more upset that the Filipinas weren’t willing to have sex with him like they were with the White guy than he is at his experience of racism? Based on his comments, his views towards the Filipinas don’t seem much better than his White pals’ views.

    Like


  317. @ Michael Jon Barker

    “Maybe if I reword my statement to say this:

    “The argument is used by white feminists to deflect away from their own privilege when conversing with women of color.”

    “That I have seen before in discussions. ”

    *shrugs* I don’t doubt that the argument has been used that way, but those white feminists doing so do not understand it. This is not the primary use of the argument among social justice advocates who know what it means.

    “I was trying to find her original piece where she penned that term so as to get the right context but I haven’t been able to locate it on line.”

    See my last comment. I think this is an updated version of the original piece (it’s still old, but updated in that it cites events and sources up to the mid-90s). I’m not entirely sure, though.

    Like


  318. @ taotesen

    Kind of a digression because this was something being discussed on another thread: but if you look at the Martinez essay, notice she’s using capital “Black” lower case “white” — almost 20 years ago!

    Liked by 1 person


  319. @Kiwi

    Is it just me or does TheHipHopRecords seem more upset that the Filipinas weren’t willing to have sex with him like they were with the White guy than he is at his experience of racism? Based on his comments, his views towards the Filipinas don’t seem much better than his White pals’ views.

    Kemosabe – I’m pissed off when any women doesn’t wanna flatten some grass with me. Don’t give a dam what colour she is.

    Like


  320. @ TheHipHopRecords

    Don’t give a dam what colour she is.

    Yeah, right. “Asian menace” and all, huh?

    Like


  321. @ Fan

    Let’s now look at who actually made the initial comment about a diminished ASIAN anatomical part.

    Right, except that unlike you, I don’t actually believe stereotypes.

    Like


  322. @ Kiwi

    Apparently he now thinks you’re Native American and is choosing his racial slurs accordingly.

    I made the mistake of following his username’s link to his twitter. “All women deserve to be raped and murdered.” That’s . . . I can’t even call that sexism, the word isn’t strong enough. Pathological hatred?

    That’s my cut-off point. When someone is that full of hatred, I don’t think they can be reached.

    Like


  323. This link has an interesting diagram of the Oppression Olympics game.
    (http://www.critical-theory.com/gawker-literally-hosting-oppression-olympics/)

    Liked by 1 person


  324. @ Solitaire

    You were right about TheHipHopRecords being a “red pill” sexist. He’s posted links before to the masculist website Return Of Kings, much to the delight of biff, a racist and sexist White bigot who used to post here frequently. If you think about it, it’s not surprising that a person with a mindset like his would post racist comments about Asians as well. Both mindsets come from the same prejudiced pattern of thinking.

    What I find more disturbing, though, is that instead of calling him out or condemning his racist posts, we had multiple Black commenters “liking” his posts and even agreeing with him. He cries about Peter Liang trying to fit in with the police, a White boy’s club, and yet he does just the same thing in the military, another White boy’s club.

    Let me just tell you that from an Asian perspective, I sometimes feel like Black people are more similar to White people than they care to admit.

    Like


  325. @MJB

    Fast forward today and Asian owned Black hair supply shops, locale convenient markets (that sell over priced food and do payday loans) ect are still operated in mostly Black communities and their is some animosity about that. You can’t empower your community if your dollars are getting sucked up and sent to a different community.

    But should the animosity be directed towards whites (who redline the neighborhoods for insurance and credit and banking, fail to provide public security, and shun the neighborhood for products and services, etc.) or the Asians who are forced to obtain those services outside of the mainstream community and government?

    I agree that many of those businesses are exploiting a loophole, but that situation was created by whites. Since they are there (and the whites that created the problem are not), it is understandable that they will become the surrogate targets for that animosity. Some are supportive of the communities they are in, some are not so much. More needs to be done to fix these problems, but we need to address the root cause of the problem, not simply a symptom.

    As I wrote before in another post, this kind of thing has been going on for 140 years already and it was white people who sucked even higher amounts of money out and still do.

    Liked by 1 person


  326. @ Jefe

    “I watched on youtube a show that was presented in a 5-part series (actually part of even a larger series on the Chinese diaspora around the world) on the history of Chinese in the US and Canada — in Cantonese. Of course, it focused on only certain topics, and left out a lot, eg, on Chinese-Black relations and it stopped with Vincent Chin. It did talk a little bit about Chinese-First Nations relations in British Columbia. There was very little on the post 60s brain drain. Anyhow, it was still very good and it was entirely in Cantonese.

    “I imagine that there have been documentaries in Japan about the Japanese diaspora (in USA, Brazil, Peru, etc.) and maybe in other countries as well. I don’t see why they could not be shown in the USA.”

    Yeah, I was ruminating on Asian Americans producing TV programs, and I didn’t think about existing documentaries. Korea might have some, too?

    I do think if there was some way to get the funding and initiative, it would be good to produce some programs here to cover the issues that the Chinese-produced documentary didn’t. But since the Cantonese one already exists and is pretty decent, it would definitely be a good resource to direct Cantonese-speaking immigrants to.

    Like


  327. @ Solitaire

    Well, you can ask “why” here, or you can do something about it. Have you said to anyone at your university in a position to do anything about it: “Hey, this mural is great, but we Asian American students would also like a mural representing our struggles and our leaders.” Do you know whether there are any student groups already involved in trying to make this happen? Are you active in any Asian American and/or multicultural student groups that advocate for diversity issues?

    You know, I will do just that. I’m going to find out exactly what motivated the decision makers to put up a mural of Black historical figures but not Asian ones at an Asian majority school. I suspect it had something to do with White liberals who, like jefe described, have done more to erase Asian American history than even White conservatives.

    I am not part of any Asian groups but I will go see what they have to say. I suspect that like many on this blog and others, some Asian activists have been subverted by the idea that somehow Black issues are front and center, often to the detriment of their own causes. Writers like Scot Nakagawa and possibly Ronald Takaki are especially bad at this.

    Like


  328. @MJB

    In this thread the oppression olympics have been used against Sharina’s statements because of this idea that racism is structurally horizontal.

    I don’t think anyone purported that it is structurally horizontal.

    It is not structurally vertical either.

    Anyhow, Abagond will post up something on Oppression Olympics later on and that can be debated ad infinitum there.

    Like


  329. @ Kiwi

    “Let me just tell you that from an Asian perspective, I sometimes feel like Black people are more similar to White people than they care to admit.”

    Did you see my earlier post where I was answering Jefe’s questions about my spouse’s experience? Everyone does it to everyone..

    And no one wants to admit that they do it.

    Like


  330. Kiwi,

    I’m going to find out exactly what motivated the decision makers to put up a mural of Black historical figures but not Asian ones at an Asian majority school

    This month, is after all, Asian Pacific American Heritage month. There is NOTHING at your university to recognize the history?

    Like


  331. @ Jefe

    I don’t think “Oppression Olympics” was ever meant as a lens through which to view racism or as a statement about hierarchy. It may have been interpreted (or misinterpreted) that way later, but I don’t believe that was the original intent. My spouse uses “Oppression Olympics” but he also does a lot of work with the hierarchies of oppression and a similar model called the umbrella of oppression. They aren’t mutually exclusive.

    Like


  332. @Solitaire,

    Actually, I made a mistake. That documentary was narrated in Cantonese, but the interviews were in English, Mandarin and Cantonese. They interviewed John Jung, who has commented here on Abagond’s blog in the past, and he discussed in English the history of Chinese Laundries. They interviewed several survivors of Angel Island in English.

    The Museum of Chinese American history in New York (which I have visited twice) has information not only in English and Chinese, but also Spanish.

    Yeah, for example, it would be good to have more multilingual content on this, eg, the Japanese American internment experience and aftermath available not only in English and Japanese, but also Mandarin, Cantonese, Vietnamese, Korean, Tagalog and Spanish. Maybe it is possible to use existing materials and do voice-over narration.

    Like


  333. @Solitaire,

    Maybe your husband has written a piece on oppression models that can be shared with Abagond and his blog?

    Like


  334. @ Kiwi

    “You know, I will do just that. I’m going to find out exactly what motivated the decision makers to put up a mural of Black historical figures but not Asian ones at an Asian majority school. I suspect it had something to do with White liberals who, like jefe described, have done more to erase Asian American history than even White conservatives.”

    I suspect there were African Americans who fought very hard for the mural but the ultimate decision rested in the hands of white people. I doubt some white person, liberal or not, got the idea out of the thin blue air.

    I may be wrong in this particular case, but that is generally the trend.

    Like


  335. @ Jefe

    Sorry, no. Once things slow down during the summer break, I’ll ask him if he can give me a list of suggested reading.

    Like


  336. @ jefe

    I agree that many of those businesses are exploiting a loophole, but that situation was created by whites.

    I sometimes wonder if these “third race” dynamics can be compared to other countries. In Rwanda, Tutsis were given an economically dominant status over the majority Hutu by their Belgian colonizers and look how that ended. Sure, Tutsis did exploit Hutus but that situation was created by Europeans in the first place. The main difference, though, is that Tutsis were assigned higher status by the Belgians whereas in the US, Asians are shunted by Whites into niches like running shops in order to survive economically.

    The commonality between the Rwandan genocide and the LA riots was that it was Tutsis and Koreans who ended up paying the price of White racism, in lives or property.

    Like


  337. @ Solitaire

    I suspect there were African Americans who fought very hard for the mural

    And like I said, I suspect there were plenty more Asian Americans cheering them along, forgetting and neglecting their own representation due to the idea that Black issues come front and center in antiracist struggles.

    Like


  338. @ jefe

    @ munubantu,

    Did you ask any black person if they wanted to switch current status with an Asian, esp. a male? what kind of answers did you get from that?

    I noticed the one-sidedness of munubantu’s comment, too. I wonder what kind of answer Chris Rock would give. For that matter, I also wonder what kind of answer Blacks who pull their eyes into slants, say “ching chong”, comment on Asian men’s penis sizes, or served in Vietnam would give.

    Like


  339. @ Kiwi

    How old is the mural? Was your school majority Asian back then?

    Like


  340. @ jefe

    There is NOTHING at your university to recognize the history?

    When walking around at my school, I realized it was Black History Month the very first day it started.

    I didn’t realize it was Asian American History Month until I read about it on this blog. And that was halfway into the month!

    During Black History Month, I saw Asians running stands and displays, sharing information and brochures about Black history. But so far this month, I do not recall one display or stand showcasing Asian American History Month.

    That is insane. Can you believe it???

    Like


  341. @ jefe

    There is NOTHING at your university to recognize the history?

    When walking around at my school, I realized it was Black History Month the very first day it started.

    I didn’t realize it was Asian American History Month until I read about it on this blog. And that was halfway into the month!

    During Black History Month, I saw Asians running stands and displays, sharing information and brochures about Black history. But so far this month, I do not recall one display or stand showcasing Asian American History Month.

    That is insane. Can you believe it???

    Like


  342. @ Solitaire

    How old is the mural? Was your school majority Asian back then?

    It’s about a year old, so obviously yes. According to a staff member I’ve spoken to, Asians have had a large, visible presence on campus since at least the 80s.

    Like


  343. @ Kiwi

    That’s new, all right.

    What’s the Hispanic student representation like?

    Like


  344. @ Solitaire

    What’s the Hispanic student representation like?

    Do you mean people or art?

    There’s a fair amount of Hispanics but it’s hard to see precisely how many because they’re technically not a race and are often ambiguous. Also, the presence of White Hispanics confuses things.

    In the same vein as the Black mural, there’s an area on campus dedicated specifically to representing Hispanics in art.

    In my time here, I’ve never seen a single grandiose display representing Asians the way Blacks and Hispanics are. This is how I know it has little to do with student numbers. I fault the Model Minority stereotype.

    Like


  345. @ Kiwi

    That’s where I was going. I didn’t know if there was any similar artwork representing Hispanics.

    Yeah, it may be the Model Minority stereotype, plus if Asian American student numbers are that high, there may also be some of the “but you’re over-represented so why do you need artwork” rationale. Which can be countered with “but our long history in the US is almost invisible which is one reason we need that artwork” etc. etc.

    It will be interesting to see what the Asian American groups on your campus are involved with. First you have to find out which (if any) are activist-oriented. Some might be more like a social club. If there are activists, they may have identified issues they feel are a higher priority than a mural. Or they may be bogged down due to lack of support from the adminstration. Lots of possibilities.

    Is there an Asian American Studies department?

    Like


  346. I notice how some commenters seem to believe that the “facts” about Asians (eg: educational attainment, economic status, etc.) are indicators of how close to becoming White Asians have come. I would argue the opposite. It is precisely because of their “success” that Asians are perceived as bigger threats. The wealth or power that Asians have built up, in the US or in Asia, in reality pose the biggest threats to White supremacy’s existence.

    Because Asians do not consider themselves White and Whites do not accept them as White, this means any situation that arises where Whites fear Asians gaining the upper hand will be cause for Whites to attack and destroy Asians in order to keep their power. Because White supremacy is rooted in Whites fearing, hating, and looking down on all those who are different, by definition, no one who is non-White can be allowed to surpass Whites.

    As Asia, especially China, continues its meteoric rise in economic, political and especially military spheres, it will pose a greater threat to White American supremacy. In the event that this were to become hostile enough for a direct confrontation between the two powers, I can imagine Asians sinking to the “despised other” status that Muslims currently occupy.

    Some commenters subscribe to the notion that Asians are somehow closer to Whites due to their “honorary White” status. I can assure you that after the attack on Pearl Harbor, Asians and the Japanese especially were the farthest thing from Whites. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are two reminders of that.

    Like


  347. @ Solitaire

    Is there an Asian American Studies department?

    Yes. I will have to contact some of their professors.

    Like


  348. I didn’t realize it was Asian American History Month until I read about it on this blog.

    You didn’t realize that already, or way in advance of this blog? Are you involved in any Asian Student organization or read any Asian American media?

    That is insane. Can you believe it??

    I would not be surprised to see murals prominently depicting Black American history and not APA history and culture during APA Heritage month at places like Howard Univ, Fisk Univ or Morehouse College. But it seems a bit odd at a university that is majority Asian.

    Even if they are so many Asians on campus, as Solitaire suggested, they might be oblivious to Asian American activist issues, either because they are more socially oriented, geared for foreign students or because their members are just not aware of any Asian American history or current affairs (as it is, as we know, omitted from the national narrative and educational system).

    Yeah, ask the professors in the Asian American Studies department.

    Like


  349. All this talk about how close to becoming White Asians supposedly have come reminded me of a conversation my aunt had with me several years ago.

    At a yoga class she attended in the Bay Area during a visit, she recalled how the White members of her class tended to cluster and interact more with non-Asian minorities (ie: Blacks and Hispanics) than they did with Asians. My aunt, having lived in the non-Asian Midwest since the 70s, was bewildered by the experience and explained to me that she realized this was because White people in fact feel threatened by Asians. She reasoned that numbers were a big part of it because California has undergone a dramatic demographic shift in recent decades, with a large influx of Asian immigrants.

    The Yellow Peril stereotype can be described as a mental image that Whites hold of East Asians as an endless sea of faceless aliens: an inscrutable and menacing horde that threatens to invade and take over America and thus destroy its White, European character by swamping it with yellow bodies. When large numbers of Chinese immigrants came to the US during the 1800s, much of the Western United States became significantly Asian (Idaho was 30% Asian, California 10%, etc.), so Whites feared this would soon become a reality.

    Much of the White flight out of California that we currently see is due to this fear of Asians and the Yellow Peril stereotype. As Asians grow more numerous in the US, Whites fear being taken over by them and one option is to move away. Another option is to block Asian immigration. Historically, killing Asians was also an option and it still remains on the table even today.

    Where I grew up, there is a Chinese shopping center that my family regularly visits and my parents described to me how some of their White coworkers told them they are afraid to visit it. When asked why, they usually say something along the lines of “I don’t know. There are just so many Asians so it’s scary”. A close reading of crime statistics would tell you that Asians commit crime at a rate several times lower than Whites, so this fear is undoubtedly irrational.

    Based on the stats, you would think Whites should in fact be rushing into Asian neighborhoods to live there, but we the see the exact opposite happening: Whites fleeing Asian neighborhoods due to this fear. The city I grew up in is majority Asian due to this Yellow Peril-driven White flight and when I walk around the streets or visit the schools, I notice how all the children are Asian and most of the White people are elderly or childless.

    Like


  350. @ Kiwi

    Also check for diversity-related offices. Somewhere on your school’s website there should be a link to diversity resources. You’re looking for a title something like office of multicultural student affairs, cross-cultural student center, office of social equity and diversity, office of social justice and inclusion.

    Like


  351. @ Kiwi

    On the other side of the ledger, your university’s having an Asian American Studies program is a Big Deal. There aren’t very many in existence.

    Like


  352. @ Kiwi

    I don’t know if this term is still used in California but in the ’90s the corollary to “white flight” was “Asian invasion.” That was literally the term used when Asians began moving into white-majority neighborhoods.

    Admittedly, it is, like white flight, a catchy rhyme. But, hmmm, invasion? Like an invasion of a foreign army? Yellow Peril, much?

    Like


  353. @ Solitaire

    Yeah, it may be the Model Minority stereotype, plus if Asian American student numbers are that high, there may also be some of the “but you’re over-represented so why do you need artwork” rationale.

    As a college student, I became very familiar wth the term “underrepresented minority”, which is used to refer to non-Asian minorities. The idea is that Asians are doing so well academically, even exceeding expectations, that they don’t need redress or assistance of any form.

    Personally, I always found it infuriating because it implied that Asians are not truly minorities and that their concerns are less important. Many of the commenters here would probably argue that it simply means Asians’ issues are different, not lesser, but the message received is still the same: You are the Model Minority. You need to shut up and defer to the real minorities aka Blacks, Hispanics, and Natives.

    Like


  354. Kiwi said ‘in the US, Asians are shunted by Whites into niches like running shops in order to survive economically.’
    Is that paying a quarter million franchise fee to open a dunkin donuts or a shop in the hood. Im a little confused on this one

    Like


  355. @ v8driver

    Your question is a complicated one that jefe has studied in depth. He’s your man.

    Like


  356. @ Solitaire

    But, hmmm, invasion? Like an invasion of a foreign army? Yellow Peril, much?

    Exactly! I’ve noticed that some commenters think it takes an overseas threat for non-Asians to act on the Yellow Peril stereotype but that’s not true. Asians in the US, even those born here, are the “overseas threat”, thus White flight from Asian neighborhoods and Whites fearing Asian spaces. I mentioned biff, the White bigot, who described visiting Chinatown as if he were visiting a foreign country. Due to the Perpetual Foreigner stereotype, Asian Americans are seen as an outside threat wherever they are.

    Whites feared Asians well before the attack on Pearl Harbor. To Whites, Chinese immigrants who were not involved with the military and were here simply for a better life were just a foreign invasion. That was all the excuse they needed to wipe them out by killing them en masse. No Pearl Harbor necessary.

    Even today, I still get asked by White people if I’m from Korea or Japan. In a hundred years, my generation of Asian Americans’ grandchildren will still be asked if they’re from Asia. Sadly, other races hold the same prejudice.

    Like


  357. One of my Asian friends told me about her experience growing up in her lily-White hometown, when she visited a White friend’s place with a bunch of other girls. She was the only Asian there and her friend wanted to introduce her to her younger 5 year old sister. As soon as her sister saw my friend, she recoiled in fear and ran behind her sister’s back, as if my friend were the scariest thing she had ever seen. At that moment, I doubt my friend was an “honorary White”. She was seen as a menace. Her White friend later told her that she was the first Asian her sister had ever seen.

    I can only assume this primal fear response in White children stays with Whites into adulthood. I’ve read about traumatized Vietnam veterans who even today, react in fear whenever they see or meet an Asian American.

    Like


  358. Most of the gentrification of traditional Hispanic neghborhoods in L.A. has been from Hispanic to Asian not from white the Asain. (Monterey Park, Alhambera) The exception are Arcadia and San Marino which was originally white. You can’t buy a house their for less then a million any where in those cities. Whites and Hispanics sold because Asains drove up the price real estate. They cashed out and relocated elsewhere.

    Asians also live in middle to upper class communities which are also diverse. This idea that they always “group” together isn’t a valid assumption.

    I never met anybody who was afraid of Asians or who sold because of “white flight”.

    Like


  359. @ v8driver

    Right, Jefe knows way more about that. But there is a post that touches on that:

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/06/06/chinese-americans-in-the-deep-south-after-1882/

    Asians, like Jews before them, fill a third-race niche in the economy: positions that neither Blacks nor Whites are willing or able to fill.

    Like


  360. @ v8driver

    The reason there were so many Chinese restaurants and laundries is not because Chinese men could cook food or wash clothes better than White men, but because White men considered that women’s work. That left open a niche Asian men could fill without seeming to be a threat to Whites (who were not above burning your place to the ground).

    Like


  361. Kiwi asks these questions and how they relate to racial hierarchy. Society is made up of hierarchies, some of them competing and others that layer upon one another. In thinking about hierarchical relationships, the determining factor of whether they are good or bad rest whether they are voluntary as opposed to being held together by force.

    Religious hierarchies appear to be voluntary and can be positive on the locale level but also have the potential for violence if a religion wishes to force its particular beliefs on other religious communities. Religions offer special privileges to its members and similarly political and racial hierarchies layered onto each other offer privileges and protections to those at the top and to those who move up within the system. .

    Kiwi, 1. Internalized racism among Blacks is relative to Whites. When Blacks lighten their skin or straighten their hair, they are approximating the White form, not Asians. When Blacks pull their eyes into slants, they are not trying to be Asian. They are mocking Asian features.

    White is the standard by which all things are judged by. Some Blacks and Asians have preferences for lighter skin because of internalized racism ect.

    Kiwi, 2. Americans are more open to the idea of a Black president than they are to an Asian president. This is due to the Model Minority stereotype and the Perpetual Foreigner stereotype. The former paints Asians as apolitical and the latter means Asians are seen as less American than Blacks.

    I’m not sure why their are not a lot of Asian Americans within the political system. That these stereo types exist within white supremacy doesn’t disprove racial hierarchies. The “model minority” stereo type points to a hierarchical view of race.

    My wife works at a hospital that recently voted to become unionized. Union reps showed up a lobbied hard to the nurses to unionize. When it came down to the vote it broke down around racial lines. Whites and Blacks overwhelmingly voted to Unionize while Asian nurses voted collectively against it. (Vietnamese, Chinese, Filipino ect) It was defeated. My wife asked some of her friends why and their response was they wanted to keep more of their income because they felt that they could invest it more wisely then the benefits they would receive if they unionized. I don’t know whether you would characterize that as apolitical or not.

    Kiwi, 3. Assimilative behaviors among Blacks trend towards White folkways, not Asian ones. Blacks speak English, the “default” language, not Asian ones. Blacks who say “ching chong” make this clear. Christianity is dominant, not Eastern religions. Blacks do not convert to Asian religions like Buddhism to assimilate.

    Again whites are at the top of the hierarchy so that is the standard that some gravitate towards. Assimilation means supporting white supremacy and it is within that context that liberals argue for diversity. I think society should be made up of parallel communities that retain their cultural heritage and coexist through mutual respect. White supremacy opposes this thus “yellow peril”, “perpetual foreigner”, Islamophobia, Black power ect.

    Kiwi, 4. American wars in Asia aligned Blacks with Whites against Asians. Black Americans were united with White Americans against a common, outside enemy: the Yellow Peril. Asians were seen as the menacing outsiders. Blacks took part of national struggles against an Asian “despised other”.

    That’s what Nationalism does. It dehumanizes the enemy and rallies its citizens around a common enemy. Non whites who move upward within racial hierarchy (like in the military) do so at the expense of other oppressed peoples. Like religion, racial hierarchy allows special privileges to those who maintain the status quo.

    In majority non white countries that trade with the U.S. their “1%” is bought off to keep the flow of resources going at the expense of their own people. That’s one way white supremacy is maintained globally.

    Kiwi, 5. Andrea Smith’s three pillars of American White supremacy. Abagond listed anti-Black racism, anti-Native racism, and anti-Brown racism alongside one another as tenets that support White supremacy. He did not point to anti-Black racism as central or even as more important than the others.

    Racial hierarchy doesn’t contradict that.

    To expand upon that, the three pillars of the Western Empire are:

    1. Race
    2. Capitalism that maintains white economic hegemony.
    3. State apparatuses that use force and coercion to maintain white supremacy within the U.S. and on a world wide basis.

    For a better understanding of how I view hierarchies read this:

    “Individualist Anarchism and Hierarchy”

    https://c4ss.org/content/30804

    Liked by 2 people


  362. The moratorium between Sharina and Kiwi is hereby lifted.

    Like


  363. “The moratorium between Sharina and Kiwi is hereby lifted.” Amen, or
    “Letting a hundred flowers blossom and a hundred schools of thought contend is the policy for promoting progress in the arts and the sciences and a flourishing socialist culture in our land.” Mao Zedong circa 1957

    Like


  364. @ Michael Jon Barker

    “I never met anybody who was afraid of Asians or who sold because of “white flight”.”

    I’m not sure what your point is here. Are you simply sharing your experience or casting doubt on mine? While in California, my Asian spouse had white people pull their children away from him as if he was an immediate threat. Like he would get in line at the grocery store, and the white parent would yank their child around in front of them and physically shield the child with their body.

    Being white, I heard white people talk about “Asian Invasion” (thinking I would agree), and I also heard Asian Americans discuss it from their perspective. I’m not making this up.

    The housing market has admittedly changed since I was there; it was already unreasonably expensive but has gotten drastically worse. Your statement above sound like Asian investors were flipping houses. This is not quite the same thing as Asian American families moving into a neighborhood to live for a long time. Also, are you implying that only Asians flipped houses and that Asians are solely responsible for running up prices into the millions? Because that may not be how you meant it, but that sure is how it sounds as written.

    Like


  365. @ Michael Jon Barker

    Brace for impact.

    Liked by 1 person


  366. @MJB and Solitaire

    Re: Oppression Olympics

    In most situations where this is thrown out is it not a tool used to silence individuals and ignore that said individual does have some level of privileges?

    Are there not privileges to falling under the model minority stereotype?

    Another issue I have seen on this thread is people’s experiences become model minority thinking and there seems to be no line drawn between that and just what they have seen or heard. That to me is also a line of silencing because it starts to dismiss others experiences. Just a thought.

    @gro jo

    Lifted or not….not my monkey….not my circus.

    Liked by 1 person


  367. @ Kiwi

    I’ve been thinking a lot of something my partner said after he was treated very shabbily at a minority event he helped to organize. The master of ceremonies neglected to call his name and have him stand up when recognizing the people who’d organized the event, so most of the attendees had no clue why he was at their event. No one would sit near him, he was continually stared at, and he even overheard a couple people saying, “What’s he doing here?” When he got home, he kept saying, “I have to take that kind of sh1t from white people every day. I shouldn’t have to take it from other minorities, too.”

    I wonder if that’s where your anger’s coming from right now. That sense of betrayal: that you shouldn’t be treated that way by people who know what it’s like?

    The reason I keep coming back to tone, though, is the same thing goes for them. They get treated that way by whites every day, too, and they may feel just as betrayed by you when you go off on them in the same angry way that you would a white person.

    Like


  368. @ Sharina

    “In most situations where this is thrown out is it not a tool used to silence individuals and ignore that said individual does have some level of privileges?”

    The way it’s supposed to be used is as a reminder that too much in-fighting halts progress. That doesn’t necessarily mean silencing a person. I’ve seen it used hand-in-hand with mindful listening. Along these lines: “Remember, this isn’t the Oppression Olympics. We’re here to listen and learn from each other, to give our full attention to what each person is saying so that we truly hear them.”

    How it’s being used by self-appointed Tumblr activists is not the way it’s meant to be used. I’m absolutely sure people have used it to silence others, but they have latched onto the phrase without any real understanding.

    Like


  369. @Solitaire

    I am going to share something with you that I also wished to Jefe when he was making note of why up above.

    My grandfather is what people would view as an honorary white (make no mistake my grandfather considered himself black). In the small town we grew up in he was highly favored by whites. He joined my grandmothers church, which was made up of darker skinned black people. They did not like him. The pastor of the church put him on the tithing committee. At some point funds were starting to go missing and the members believed my grandfather to be the one taking it. My grandfather was set on leaving the church, but he never did.

    In that case they did not hate him just because or to garner white love, they had issues with him because past experiences resulted in people of his skin tone throwing them under the bus for white love. People of his tone taking or destroying what they built. And at the time, while my grandfather never did that, there were people of his skin tone that did. That played into white supremacy to get that extra leg up.

    And all groups do it to an extent. At times people will play there “good” portion of the stereotypes to garner white approval. To protect themselves or get ahead. This damages relations and anger becomes misplaced.

    Like


  370. @ Sharina

    “Are there not privileges to falling under the model minority stereotype?”

    What are some of the things that could be considered privileges?

    Like


  371. @ Sharina

    Thank you for sharing that story.

    “And all groups do it to an extent. At times people will play there “good” portion of the stereotypes to garner white approval. To protect themselves or get ahead. This damages relations and anger becomes misplaced.”

    Right. And on top of that, there are people like your grandfather who are falsly suspected of being that way just because they look like the people who did those things.

    We learn from a very young age to think in terms of stereotypes, to divide people in groups, to think if one person who looked like this treated me in such a way, all of the people who look like that will. We learn to conceptualize our world that way, and it is a very hard habit to break.

    Liked by 1 person


  372. Sharina,

    I really am trying to understand you.

    After invoking the model model stereotype several times upfield, you said

    I don’t even believe in the model minority, so why would I refer to anyone as it?

    And then shortly after that, you come back with

    Are there not privileges to falling under the model minority stereotype?

    By claiming that there are privileges accorded to certain groups under the model minority stereotype, but not to other groups, are you not invoking the model minority stereotype and applying it to your argument?

    If you indeed do not believe in that stereotype, is there a reason why you use that stereotype to build your argument?

    I see the model minority stereotype as something straight out of the playbook of white supremacy. It was invented to restrict and control the civil rights of POC. By expressing attitudes and behaviours that confirm that stereotype (or to believe that it is indeed a model to explain society or to explain privilege), then it is tantamount to embracing the very system of white supremacy that you claim to be against.

    If you reject the model minority stereotype, then you have to reject its tenets.

    Actually, everyone enjoys some kinds of privileges over others. If you have been following that MTV decoded series on youtube, they explain it very simply. (I can probably find the link if you have not seen it yet.) And if you can “get” that, then you can see how, for example, that for some things, blacks tend to enjoy certain privileges in US society that Asians tend not to. I do not want to get into who enjoys *more* privilege as that spills over into oppression olympics, but if you want to fight white supremacy and build bridges with other groups who want to dismantle the white supremacy system, then one of the things you must do is reject the model minority myth.

    Like


  373. @Sharina,

    Thank you kindly for sharing the story about your grandfather. It reflects one of the enduring legacies of colourism, which has torn apart people and their lives at various parts of that spectrum.

    However, that is not at all what the model minority stereotype is about. Have you read those two 1966 articles as well as the slew of articles and propaganda during the resurgence in the 1980s? You know that that stereotype is talking about something altogether different.

    Like


  374. @jefe

    “After invoking the model model stereotype several times upfield, you said”—I asked you upthread to quote where I have and you have not been able to thus far. So when you say I have I just see it as a convenient just because.

    “By claiming that there are privileges accorded to certain groups under the model minority stereotype, but not to other groups, are you not invoking the model minority stereotype and applying it to your argument?”—I am actually simply asking a question, but this becomes the frequent problem. Asking those questions turns into the assumption that one is invoking a model minority stereotype and it becomes an argument about how it is when a simple question is asked. This in turns just seems like a shut down of even asking or even wanting to know period.

    Then you write long comments with your already made assumption. What is the point in anyone wanting to learn from a person who takes questions and turn it into “you are invoking the model minority stereotype?” Everything said or asked can’t automatically be model minority but that is exactly what you make it and that is exactly why I believe it is being used by you as a silencing technique.

    “If you indeed do not believe in that stereotype, is there a reason why you use that stereotype to build your argument?”—The stereotype was never used to build my argument. It was not part of my argument period.

    Like


  375. @jefe

    “However, that is not at all what the model minority stereotype is about.”—I never said that was what the model minority stereotype was about, but it does highlight where a lot of animosity comes from. This is people experience through talking to them. It may not be written in a book, but it should not be discounted either.

    Like


  376. @ Sharina

    “Another issue I have seen on this thread is people’s experiences become model minority thinking and there seems to be no line drawn between that and just what they have seen or heard. That to me is also a line of silencing because it starts to dismiss others experiences. Just a thought.”

    I’m not quite sure I follow which way you mean this. Are the people being silenced those who refute the Model Majority stereotype or those who support it? Or both?

    Like


  377. @ Sharina

    I think you may have just answered my last question in your post to Jefe…

    Like


  378. @Solitaire

    “What are some of the things that could be considered privileges?”—Personally I don’t consider anything a privilege that puts a person in a box, but being looked at as a model minority (whether Asian or African) allows for people to view one as less of a threat.

    This is the common idea that comes from whites. Being viewed as less of a threat allows for whites to be less wiling to take drastic actions against you, because they don’t see you as something to worry about. While it is not true in terms of being docile, this is an advantage that is not afforded to all groups. Similarly it can be said that blacks have the privilege of being considered citizens where as Asians will be viewed as perpetual foreigners.

    “We learn from a very young age to think in terms of stereotypes, to divide people in groups, to think if one person who looked like this treated me in such a way, all of the people who look like that will.”—I agree. I think that idea is slowly dissolving as more people interact with each other.

    Like


  379. @Solitaire

    “I’m not quite sure I follow which way you mean this. Are the people being silenced those who refute the Model Majority stereotype or those who support it? Or both?”—I think I may have, but I should also add that I see this in cases of other discussions on stereotypes as well. Everything becomes the stereotype and the discussion becomes muddied because there is no longer a separation between the actual use of the stereotype and a person sharing an experience they have seen.

    For example, a commenter could share a story of non-active Asians in political issues and it will get shut down as model minority. That commenter is not saying they believe that, but they are sharing that they have seen that.

    That is where the frustration is starting to come in for me. I typically don’t mind explaining, but with this discussion it is turning into “let me just find anything to say it is model minority.”

    Like


  380. @ Solitaire

    Yes I’m talking about my own personal experience. I also get that it’s unique to the geographic region I live in and it represents a small sliver in the U.S.

    I have never heard people complain about an “”Asian invasion”. I have heard older white people complain that their Asain neighbors were “rude”. I have heard the same complaint against Armenians as well. Sometimes I hear a sort of compliment that’s more of a sterotype like “their great neighbors because they mind their own busines”.

    Their is a lot more going on then just Asains “house flipping”. Most house flipping here is done by whites, Hispanics and Armenians. Buy a house, paint it, refurbish with low end materials and flip. What is more common is realtors who specialize in properties for clients who live over seas. Their ia a California law that states if you own property here your children can qualify to go to college so homes are bought and rented out so their kids can attend college. Their is also a lot of venture capital from Asia that gets invested into property. China, both State and private, have invested upwards to 60 billion in U.S. business and property.

    I have worked with Asain developers who buy real estate, refurbish and resell. But these are high end materials and construction. I worked on one Asaim owner project that was a 16 million dollar new home in Beverly Hills. Most projects are in the 2 to 3 million dollar range. I don’t know if I would call that house flipping.

    Their is discrimination against Asians in college entrance exams. Their bar to entry is much higher then whites.

    In Arcadia the medium house hold income is over 300,000. That’s triple what it was 20 years ago.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcadia,_California

    The Wikipedia link also shows Asian communities in the surrounding areas.

    This article talks about the housing bubble here.

    http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-chinese-homebuyers-20140324-story.html

    Like


  381. Sharina,

    I pointed out it again in my last quote from you that I put into blockquotes when you said “Are there not privileges to falling under the model minority stereotype?” to support your argument.

    Your also used it here
    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/the-asian-supremacy-argument/#comment-315809

    I have also seen you pull it out to support your arguments in a number of other threads. It is a recurring theme. Not just you, but quite a few people here.

    But now, I am starting to understand better why.

    You see “model minority” as a kind of privilege, ie, a rehash of the old house negro v. field negro bifurcation or the light-skinned v. dark-skinned trope, ie, somehow one group is closer to white people (either in their relationship or in their phenotype) and therefore, enjoy certain privileges that the ones on the other end of the spectrum do not. The closer the “white” one is, then the higher they are in that pecking order, and thus the higher the privilege.

    Yes, those have been enduring tropes in US society for centuries. It is wrong and people at both ends suffer for it.

    But Model Minority is not about privilege per se. If you read the original theory of model minority from 1966 or even the rehash in the 1980s, it is not about privilege. It is about letting whites off the hook for not according civil rights to everyone, both blacks and Asians. The original model actually pointed out very specifically that Asians were denied their civil rights, yet did not have to react to this denial by rioting in the streets or destroying white property, or demanding special treatment from whites, ie, they attempted to overcome this disenfranchisement through means that did not upset or offend whites.
    (Actually, this is not exactly correct, but it was the stereotype being promoted.)

    I said upstream that the original (and still actual current) use of model minority has been lost on the next generation. They think it is about privilege. Model Minority is not about privilege. It is not about racial pecking order. It’s about excusing whites for not correcting the civil rights disenfranchisement that they pushed on whomever they could, ie, letting whites off the hook. It is an excuse not to do affirmative action or slavery reparations or any measure that would redress or rectify their past actions. It was even originally an excuse not to do the reparations for the Japanese American internment or for the Chinese Exclusion act or for any new generation of disenfranchised Asian group (eg, the Hmong or Cambodians) as well.

    And it is used as an excuse not to do anything about civil rights disenfranchisement for any POC now.

    I think that the erasure or intentional omission of Asian American history has caused the original meaning of model minority to be confusticated with privilege.

    Like


  382. @jefe

    ““Are there not privileges to falling under the model minority stereotype?”—That is not an argument. That is a question with a clear question mark. Where is the argument in asking a questions?

    “I have also seen you pull it out to support your arguments in a number of other threads.”—Then you need to show those other threads with those quotes because I rarely comment on the Asian American experience period, but you also made a claim of me doing on this thread prior and here you are smooth talking your way out of supplying those quotes.

    “But now, I am starting to understand better why.”—You don’t see why. You see a false why, based on a false assumption and your false need to apply model minority in situations where they don’t apply. I don’t see model minority as a privilege as it contains a lot of psychological effects on Asians who are expected to live up to it, but I do see how others view it and asking that questions should have allowed for a discussion on it. Instead all you managed to do was create a reluctance on discussion because you shot my legit question down as a model minority argument. When clear as day it was a question.

    Like


  383. @ Sharina

    “I don’t consider anything a privilege that puts a person in a box, but being looked at as a model minority (whether Asian or African) allows for people to view one as less of a threat.

    “This is the common idea that comes from whites. Being viewed as less of a threat allows for whites to be less wiling to take drastic actions against you, because they don’t see you as something to worry about. While it is not true in terms of being docile, this is an advantage that is not afforded to all groups.”

    I will agree with you on this. White people have positioned African Americans as the big bad bogeyman. There is, however, a kneejerk reaction from Asian Americans because they are still considered a threat by white people and they also don’t feel safe from white people’s violence. You put it as they are seen as “less of a threat” but too often non-Asians say that Asians aren’t seen as a threat at all, and that isn’t the reality that Asian Americans experience.

    If there are privileges accorded by stereotypes on each side, they aren’t enough to make up for the bad part of the discrimination each side faces. Not being seen as a perpetual foreigner doesn’t change the impact of the stereotypes you do face, right? It’s just one piece of cr@p that you don’t have to deal with out of all the possible pieces of cr@p white people can load on you. It works the same way in the opposite direction for other minorities.

    Like


  384. @abagond, jefe, kiwi thanks for the responses.
    yes abagond i remember asians in the deep south thread. that’s why i see coolie emigration as somewhat more willing, than the diaspora. obviously i have some reading to do. 🙂

    Like


  385. @Solitaire

    “If there are privileges accorded by stereotypes on each side, they aren’t enough to make up for the bad part of the discrimination each side faces.”—That is very true and I fully agree. There is a article I read that I am trying to find that speaks about on these issue and oppression Olympics. I don’t want to paraphrase for fear of saying it wrong, but I will comment again with the article in a bit.

    Like


  386. @ Sharina

    It could easily have been read as a rhetorical question even though that was not your intent. I wasn’t sure how you meant it, which is why I asked for an example of privileges.

    Like


  387. @Solitaire

    Found it sooner than I thought.

    http://everydayfeminism.com/2012/11/oppression-olympics/

    Like


  388. @Solitaire

    Thanks for taking the time out to ask, but usually when I ask a question it is out of curiosity or to further a discussion.

    Like


  389. it could be argued that i was even going sideways with dunkin donuts implicitly a fundamentally south asian phenonmenon of them getting family money together and stuff, too bad she who may not be named cannot even be named but anyway… is it more like with the i guess phenotype of epicanthic fols on the eye or something, i think hindus and muslims of south asian have a certainly very regional and religious plus leftover administrative british partioning and the nw territories im confused on the asian part of that

    Like


  390. @ Solitare

    You’ll need to scroll up a bit to see my first comment that was stuck in mod.

    You said, “This is not quite the same thing as Asian American families moving into a neighborhood to live for a long time.”

    I would say that is the majority of people who live here as well as those who live in places like Arcadia and San Marino.

    I have worked for people who own real estate here but don’t have American bank accounts. I’ll get paid with an international wire or a credit card from Hong Kong. At first I thought that was unusual and then realized that Americans do the same thing when they move to places like Costs Rica or Panama. They will buy real estate their but keep their U.S. bank accounts.

    One of my clients is Korean and is a licensed contractor and real estate broker. She bought properties, did quality renovations, and then sold them to other Koreans. She was doing this after the crash and didn’t seemed affected by the down turn. She learned to speak Spanish and has her own work crew. If you ran into her on the street you’d never know she was worth millions of dollars. She drives an economy car. When I first started working for her she would always get other quotes to compare. It took awhile for her to trust me but eventually she just hired me without getting competitive quotes. I would pull up and she would be bent over this work table studying blue prints and directing the workers in Spanish. She came to America to make money with the intent on going back to Singapore to retire.

    Back during the financial crash my worked dropped off significantly because people who hire me do so when the have discretionary income to spend. What I noticed was that my Asian clients seemed unaffected by the crash and for awhile the majority of the people who had work for me were Asian. I was curious and would sometime quiz them on what they did. It seemed most were tied into an Asian economy that was somewhat insulated from what had happened here. Fast forward to today and with the possibility of a China economic contraction as well as the fallout from surrounding Asian countries it’s possible that those effects will have a direct impact here. That will likely implode the micro real estate bubbles created by Asian economic investment here in the L.A. area.

    Like


  391. 504 error whiskey tango foxtrot

    Like


  392. yous saw that right?

    Like


  393. @ Michael Jon Barker

    Your reply seems to contradict your theory of racial hierarchy more than support it. If Whites and Asians both had superior status to Blacks, we would expect the interracial dynamics of (Whites/Blacks) to be similar to (Asians/Blacks). But we in fact see something very different. Where Blacks may prize or even worship Whiteness due to internalized racism, we see Blacks deriding Asian features in a manner similar, if not identical, to the way Whites deride Asians.

    While many Blacks may see associating themselves with Whiteness as a way to climb the ranks of society, I have yet to see Blacks trying to associate themselves with Asianness to do the same thing. Actually, it seems to be the opposite. I would argue that many Blacks see being Asian as a drop in status. Otherwise, why else would Blacks pull their eyes into slants or say “ching chong”?

    Like


  394. A good thought experiment to test racial hierarchies is to imagine what would happen if all White Americans were to suddenly vanish overnight. Who would reign supreme? At a guess, I would imagine Natives would still be screwed and landless, whereas Blacks and Hispanics would take over most of the country by carving out the Eastern and Western halves for themselves, respectively. Asians may be buffered by economic power, but that could easily be rectified by killing them and seizing their property due to their low numbers. This is barring any foreign invasion by an enemy power.

    Like


  395. ^^^

    Another factor working against Asians would be their internal divisions (i.e.: Chinese, Indians, Middle Easterners, Filipinos, etc.) Quite possibly, they could wind up destroying each other before any other race even gets to them.

    Like


  396. @ Solitaire

    While in California, my Asian spouse had white people pull their children away from him as if he was an immediate threat. Like he would get in line at the grocery store, and the white parent would yank their child around in front of them and physically shield the child with their body.

    That reminds me of an experience my father told me about. One time, he sat down at the opposite end of a table where a White girl sat (probably around 5-10) in the crowded public dining area of a grocery store and as soon as she saw him, she had a look of fear and disgust and got up and ran away, presumably to her parents. And no, my father does not look freaky.

    My Asian friend who grew up in a lily-White town told me that White people she barely knew were often uncomfortable having her around their dogs. You can guess why.

    Like


  397. @ Solitaire

    I also noticed during a trip to China that the White people who were part of my travel group would shield their children from Asian beggars on the street. I am curious as to how much of that was race vs. class related.

    Like


  398. @ v8driver

    Yeah, I tried to get on about an hour ago and got an error message.

    Like


  399. @ Michael Jon Barker

    That’s a different phenomenon than I experienced. I don’t know how much of the difference is due to time or because your specific business brings you in contact with a different subsection of the Asian population in California.

    Like


  400. @ Kiwi

    “My Asian friend who grew up in a lily-White town told me that White people she barely knew were often uncomfortable having her around their dogs. You can guess why.”

    That’s really bad. Like she was going to grab Fido and bbq him right there. Reminds me of the little old white lady in the Midwest at a restaurant. When we were first seated at the booth across from hers, she looked at my partner, then moved her purse over to the other side. Like she really thought he was going to grab her purse and run out of the restaurant! Lady, we just want to enjoy our meal, spare us your micro-aggressions!

    Like


  401. @MJB

    This article made me think of you.
    http://www.ejinsight.com/20160516-chinese-buyers-pour-billions-into-us-real-estate/

    Chinese buyers pour billions into US real estate
    Chinese from abroad became the largest foreign buyers of homes in the United States last year, a new study shows.

    Seeking safe offshore assets as China’s economy deteriorates, they have been pouring billions into American real estate,

    Like


  402. @ Sharina

    Thank you for the link to the Everyday Feminism article. I just finished reading it. Can I ask you what you thought of it?

    Like


  403. @ Kiwi

    “While many Blacks may see associating themselves with Whiteness as a way to climb the ranks of society, I have yet to see Blacks trying to associate themselves with Asianness to do the same thing.”

    I honestly didn’t understand the point you were making the first couple times you talked about it. I think I get it now.

    Like


  404. @Kiwi asks,

    “Your reply seems to contradict your theory of racial hierarchy more than support it.”

    Your looking at it wrong. Whites are least likely to date outside their race because they are at the top of the hierarchy. Blacks and Asains are more likely to date outside their race because white supreme by nature destroys identity and replaces it with a white centric facade.

    Kiwi says,

    “A good thought experiment to test racial hierarchies is to imagine what would happen if all White Americans were to suddenly vanish overnight.”

    Well Abagond would shift his focus from race to recovery.

    If white people were to magically disappeare from the planet it would take awhile for any meaningful change to occur. The inertia of white supremacy would continue until people figured out how the systemic and institutional structures function in society. The power vacuum would eventually be filled and some places like the continent of Africa would benefit the most. Africans would finally control their natural resources and the entire continent would soon rise as an economic power. This would off set an economic monopoly that would rise out of Asia.

    White supremacy is hard wired into Western democracies specifically in how law is interpreted and enforced. That’s part of the systemic nature behind oppression. Even in the absence of white people the justice system would continue to wreck havoc until it was replaced with a law system that reflect locale communities and their customs.

    The white economic hegemony would be in free fall and their would be a decentralization of wealth. The power shift would move from the West to Asia. In this hypothetical the Asain rim would become the central economic power house. 100 years from now we would have Asain privilege and Asain males would be the standard by which all things are judged.

    In the U.S. you are talking about 50% of the population disappearing. Their would be an abundance of housing and resources. It would probably break down around racial lines but not necessarily lead to violence. Conflict is usually is traced to fighting over limited resources.

    The State would still exist. That is a two edge sword capable of great good and evil. One aspect of white supremacy is the monopoly of power the State provides and it’s ability to maintain white supremacy. In a vacuum their might be a struggle for a particular group to grab control but more likely the State would no longer operate effectively in the U.S. It would be in free fall that would mirror the collapse of the white economy.

    Personally I’d rather live through a zombie apocalypse. I’d least I’d have a fighting chance lol

    Like


  405. @ Solitaire

    Another way to test Michael Jon Barker’s racial hierarchy theory is to look at who Blacks kiss up to. We know Blacks kiss up to Whites (eg: Uncle Tom), that is clear. But do Blacks really kiss up to Asians? In my experience, I have never seen this. If you think in terms of the stereotypes, it makes sense. Why would Black Americans want to kiss up to a bunch of damn FOBs from some third-world country?

    Pardon my language.

    Like


  406. @ michaeljonbarker

    Would you concur that a post by Abagond on “What would happen if White Americans disappeared?” is overdue?

    Like


  407. @ michaeljonbarker

    100 years from now we would have Asain privilege and Asain males would be the standard by which all things are judged.

    I actually agree. For this reason, I excluded foreign invasions as that would complicate the thought experiment, which I intended to analyze race relations solely within the US

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/12/18/the-chinese-invasion-experiment/

    Like


  408. @ michaeljonbarker

    Blacks and Asains are more likely to date outside their race because white supreme by nature destroys identity and replaces it with a white centric facade.

    Some people like to point to interracial relationships as a metric of acceptance. While I agree with the premise, I’ve noticed that simple demographics confounds the conclusions we can draw from data.

    Asians are pointed to as having the highest rate of interracial marriage and people conclude that Asians are highly accepted compared to other races, but this is actually due to Asians being so few and usually living in places that are mostly non-Asian. So inevitably, those who seek marriage don’t have many same-race choices to begin with. In fact, due to ongoing immigration, Asian interracial marriage is declining as they have more same-race partners to choose from and more segregation. This tells me that “acceptance” of Asians was initially overstated.

    Hispanics have the most interracial marriages by magnitude (for minorities) due to their high population size and due to what I suspect is the fact that many are White Hispanics who can assimilate with White Anglos more easily. However, ongoing Latino immigration has caused Hispanic interracial marriage to decline as well due to more segregation and more same-race partner options.

    Blacks have less interracial marriage compared to others, but again, they are more segregated and have a larger population, and thus more same-race partners to choose from. They are in fact the only group besides Whites to have increasing interracial marriages.

    My conclusion from this is that the degree of separation between Whites and other races is probably more horizontal than initially thought. Ie: Asians are not as “close to Whites” when compared to Blacks than initially believed due to declining Asian interracial marriage and rising Black interracial marriage.

    As for Whites, while yes, interracial marriage has historically been frowned upon and banned by law, it can be argued that they have the lowest rate of interracial marriage and highest rate of segregation due simply to the fact that they are the numerical majority.

    This is off topic. If you want to continue, we should move it to another thread.

    Like


  409. @ v8driver

    “with dunkin donuts implicitly a fundamentally south asian phenonmenon”

    Ah, I gotta disagree with this. There was this Cambodian-owned donut shop in San Diego called Fluffy Donuts, and everyone giggled at the name until they tried their first donut. Those things were fluffy! And highly addictive, mmmm.

    Then there was the Filipino donut shop that also sold balut. Good times.

    Like


  410. @ Kiwi

    The interactions and choices people make happen horizontally in society. What disrupts people’s natural choices are various vertical interferences which i call hierarchies.

    Social acceptance and rates of interacial relationships does not dismiss that white supremacy has a perceived racial hierarchy that is utilized to maintain white economic hegemony. It is the root behind systemic racism within the U.S. system of governance and extends outwards as foreign policy, dictates whose resources trans national corporation’s go after and forms who U.S. allies are.

    Like


  411. @ michaeljonbarker

    Asians have not been able to translate their economic clout into power in other institutions, like top positions in business, banking, government, media, education, etc.

    If we accept your racial hierarchy to be true, why are there no Asian saviors in Hollywood rescuing Blacks or others?

    Like


  412. @ Michael Jon Barker

    I have a hard time accepting economics as being the sole force behind racism and white supremacy. I grant that it is a factor, but I don’t think it is the only factor, nor can it explain some aspects of racism.

    Like


  413. You are talking about Asian power within the U.S.

    Kiwi says,

    “Asains have not been able to translate their economic clout into power in other institutions, like top positions in business, banking, government, media, education, etc.”

    In Los Angeles Asains have some poltical influence in communities where they make up the majority. Asain Americans are represented in the police force, schools, locale TV anchors, their own cable channels, the major of San Marino ect. Their are Asain banks as well Asain corperations that import/export. Nationally they are not well represented.

    “If we accept your racial hierarchy to be true, why are there no Asian saviors in Hollywood rescuing Blacks or others?”

    Well their is Glen on the Walking Dead. He has rescued Blacks and others. His wife is a white girl.

    But no I wouldn’t say Hollywood represents Asains in those roles regularly. It’s more the exception then the rule. But that is because white supremacy has advocated the stereo type of the effeminate Asain male. By collectivising Asains as Beta males that limits their risk within white supremacy.

    I don’t have a problem if you view structural racism differently then me. Their are multiple ways to view how racism affects society. My views match my anarchist beliefs but I also belive that truth can be found within different philosophical ideas. Philosophical pluralism to me means being open to other ideas and the willingness to modify existing beliefs.

    Like


  414. Solitare asks,

    “I have a hard time accepting economics as being the sole force behind racism and white supremacy. I grant that it is a factor, but I don’t think it is the only factor, nor can it explain some aspects of racism.”

    Economics is part of the whole. The reason behind Columbus and colonialism was economic dominance for their represented country. Racism became an ideology that permitted the rape, pillage and plunder of colonialism. Today it protects the white economic hegemony that controls much of the world’s resources.

    Like


  415. @ Solitare

    I think liberals and progressives attempt to separate racism from class. For example Bernie as a class reductionist. It’s the idea that if you can “fix” the economy for the working class the result will lift people out of poverty and as a consequence weaken racism. The idea that their is a viable political solution to erase racism and that’s through economic justice. But what makes it unattainable is that it doesn’t recognize white supremacy as being the over arching determiner of economic merit.

    It’s my opinion that economics and race are linked. I think if you could “defund” white supremacy it would collapse but that would entail ending the Western Empire as.we know it.

    Like


  416. I disagree with Trojan Pam’s comment on many levels:

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/the-asian-supremacy-argument/#comment-315092

    The Asian Supremacy argument is not an actual argument that Whites use. It is Abagond using satire to criticize White supremacy’s hypocrisy, which some commenters didn’t get. He specifically stated that Whites don’t advocate the Asian Supremacy argument in order to highlight that this was satire.

    My guess is that Trojan Pam confused the Asian Supremacy argument with the Model Minority stereotype, which she did criticize, but still inadvertently applied.

    I believe this “argument” was created SOLELY to make black and brown people–the biggest victims of white supremacy” — feel inferior since overall we are darker in complexion than many Asians.

    When the Model Minority stereotype was invented during the 60s, it didn’t suggest that Asians were smaller victims of White racism than Blacks and Browns. In fact, it directly referred to Asian Americans’ long experience of racism and implied that it was comparable to, if not just as bad as the experiences of other people of color.

    The point of the stereotype was instead to falsely portray Asians as having “made it” in America, despite all the racism they experienced, and that they had done so without protesting or fighting back like Blacks. The Model Minority stereotype didn’t deny the crimes that Whites had committed against Asians and Blacks or try to imply that one was greater than the other. It simply suggested that those crimes were not so bad after all, even equating them.

    But now it seems that among some people, the Model Minority stereotype is taken to imply that Asians don’t experience as much discrimination as other minorities, thus their greater degree of “success”. I’ve noticed this view to be a staple among White liberals, as made evident by the Young Turks video jefe posted. And unfortunately, it seems many non-Asian minorities have bought into it.

    Like


  417. @ Michael Jon Barker

    “It’s my opinion that economics and race are linked.”

    I agree fully with this.

    “I think if you could “defund” white supremacy it would collapse”

    I don’t exactly disagree with this because I’m not sure what would happen. Let’s say I’m highly skeptical. But it would be an interesting experiment to try. Do you have a conceptualization of how white supremacy might be defunded? I haven’t thought that far, to figure out what that might entail.

    Like


  418. re: Sharina

    I’ll try my best to summarize what happened:

    1. Sharina said Blacks bore the brunt of racism and were targeted more than Asians. Past tense.

    2. I said it looks that way after the fact because Blacks were the only ones who didn’t get killed off or driven out en masse, like others.

    3. She twisted what I said into something about Blacks being targeted more because there’s more of them.

    4. I said Blacks and Asians are targeted differently and questioned whether they can even be compared.

    5. She had this gem to say: “Blacks suffer police brutality and death now and have for a long time. Asian internment camp was years ago and really is hard to compare to an ongoing issue. There is not such a large hostile ongoing issue for Asians.” Wow. So now the past doesn’t matter. See #1.

    6. Following her reasoning, I pointed to Muslims being targeted more for killings, also an ongoing issue.

    7. She downplayed that, saying they weren’t in the US, like that made a difference. Obama’s female equivalent much?

    What I don’t understand is that if Blacks bear the brunt of racism and are targeted more, how does that NOT mean others, including Asians, don’t have it as bad? You can’t have it both ways.

    Like


  419. @ Kiwi

    One of my Asian friends told me about her experience growing up in her lily-White hometown, when she visited a White friend’s place with a bunch of other girls. She was the only Asian there and her friend wanted to introduce her to her younger 5 year old sister. As soon as her sister saw my friend, she recoiled in fear and ran behind her sister’s back, as if my friend were the scariest thing she had ever seen… She was seen as a menace. Her White friend later told her that she was the first Asian her sister had ever seen.

    Scary stuff, indeed! Worrisome…
    One of the most disturbing aspects in interracial relationships is the way (some? few? many?) small White kids react in face of people (especially adults or mere grown-ups) of other races.
    This reaction of fear I haven’t see in Black kids when they see a White or Asian adult. At least this doesn’t happen in Mozambique, neither in urban areas (where the kids have already seen some White persons in the street and certainly many White persons on TV) nor in rural areas.
    In remote rural areas, where White people are rarely seen, the kids react mainly with curiosity, approaching the person and discretely looking at him/her, especially if said individual White has blond hair and “cat-like” eyes (I mean light colored eyes!). I’ve never seen them reacting with fear!
    So the fear of (some) White kids in front of people of other races, must have another explanation other than “all kids fear unfamiliar adults”
    I suspect that (some) White parents instill that fear somehow in their children. And this is really very bad! Is like instilling a venom in the mind of their children, who, certainly, were not born that way (with fear of other races)!

    This is one of the reasons of the enduring resilience of White racism until these days.

    Liked by 1 person


  420. @ munubantu

    I suspect that (some) White parents instill that fear somehow in their children.

    I remember reading somewhere that even some White people’s pets react differently or antagonistically towards people of other races. One theory, however, argues that it’s not the animal that has this kind of response towards the person innately hard-wired into them, but the owner who instills the response in their pet.

    Maybe something similar goes on with children. For many White people, it seems they treat their pets as if they were their own children so I wouldn’t be surprised that both sets of “children” end up picking up on cues from their “parents”.

    Like


  421. @TheHipHopRecords

    While your sexism is wrong (although I felt a hint of sarcasm) I don’t believe what you said was wrong. Too much focus was put on falsely calling you an uncle tom and a refusal to acknowledge that clinging to whiteness exists in a lot of Asian countries. There was dismissal by calling you names rather than acknowledging the issues.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2830602/Plastic-surgery-drastic-t-past-airport-security-Chinese-women-flying-South-Korea-Western-face.html

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/10/22/skin-lightening/

    @Fan…

    I could not speak on it before but toxic is an understatement. He harbors extreme anti-black attitudes and I feel like my past refusal to address it has made him feel more confident in displaying it. Even in his more recent comment to me he has twisted what actually happened to create the idea that he is the victim, because things were twisted. Yet I repeated the same things for several posts. How can you twist want is consistently the same each and every post? You can’t, but when a person sees something that is not there then I am sure that is possible.

    Like


  422. ^^^

    Big words for someone who downplays the deaths of Muslims simply because they’re killed outside the US.

    Like


  423. @Kiwi

    I never downplayed it there deaths. So do yourself a favor and stop twisting what I said.

    Like


  424. their

    Like


  425. Far more Muslims die from White supremacy on an ongoing basis but we are supposed to believe Blacks are bearing the brunt of racism because their deaths happen in the US and because American privilege.

    Like


  426. @Solitaire

    “Can I ask you what you thought of it?”—The article gave me a good idea of how oppression Olympics works, although I disagree that it just applies in situations where it is meant to hurt. Ultimately hurt is what comes from it, but comparison alone applies. What struck me about the article was the talk of privilege. While I agreed above that the good does not outweigh the bad, it still needs to be acknowledge that those “privileges” help individuals better navigate through the system of white supremacy. I personally have noticed that this is part of the reason why oppression Olympics becomes a problem (ie LOM). Why it becomes a shouting match instead of acknowledging the oppression. For example, with me and my husband. When I am out with the kids men are openly willing to put my groceries in my cart for me and hold doors open for me and even hold an umbrella over my head as I get to the car. That is not going to happen with my husband. People are not going to be willing to do any of those things because they see him as a capable male.

    Re: Kiwi’s Tone

    People in here do not have issues with Kiwi’s tone. They deal with racist pretty regularly. The issue is over the years he has become very anti-black. He excuses this by claiming he is pointing out hypocrisy, when in reality he is not. A while back he made a very anti-black comment that resulted in a large blow back. He later made an explanation that I and a few commenters accepted. Since then his anti-black behavior has greatly increased. He used to be in very close contact with a black female commenter. Said commenter expressed a desire to date white men due to the fact that they were the ones that showed interest. Before long he was venomously attacking her. She left the blog permanently and had her comments deleted. In short, the I’m trying to understand nice guy act is just that…..An ACT.

    Like


  427. @Kiwi

    “Far more Muslims die from White supremacy on an ongoing basis but we are supposed to believe Blacks are bearing the brunt of racism because their deaths happen in the US and because American privilege.”—Your not suppose to believe that because I never said that. You brought in Muslims to deflect. That is your circus, so you break down and ask and figure out what you want to believe.

    Like


  428. Here’s the rundown:

    1. Far more Muslims die in America’s War on Terror regularly than Blacks die due to police brutality.

    2. Blacks are bearing the brunt of racial discrimination and are targeted more because that is the reality.

    3. #1 and #2 do not contradict

    4. You may divide by 0.

    Like


  429. Kiwi

    If you are going to twist something…make sure what you are twisting is lost.

    1. Sharina said Blacks bore the brunt of racism and were targeted more than Asians. Past tense.—What Sharina actually said: “I would also add that they dealt with the brunt of racial discrimination. Not discounting the struggle of Asians, but it was not the same.”
    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/the-asian-supremacy-argument/#comment-315423

    2. I said it looks that way after the fact because Blacks were the only ones who didn’t get killed off or driven out en masse, like others.

    3. She twisted what I said into something about Blacks being targeted more because there’s more of them. What was said from first comment: I would not say it is just population size.
    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/the-asian-supremacy-argument/#comment-315423
    Before he even made the comment of it looks that way.

    4. I said Blacks and Asians are targeted differently and questioned whether they can even be compared. What Sharina said first comment again: Not discounting the struggle of Asians, but it was not the same
    Use prior links to view direct comment.

    5. She had this gem to say: “Blacks suffer police brutality and death now and have for a long time. Asian internment camp was years ago and really is hard to compare to an ongoing issue. There is not such a large hostile ongoing issue for Asians.” Wow. So now the past doesn’t matter. See #1.
    Falsely made assumption: Something that is continuously happening (past to current) cannot really compare to something that happened years ago. simple

    6. Following her reasoning, I pointed to Muslims being targeted more for killings, also an ongoing issue.—What Sharina actually said: I don’t doubt he has, but I also don’t have proof he has. What I have proof of is white American citizens murdering or attacking Muslims in the USA.
    Saying you don’t have proof of something is not downplaying. It just means you don’t know, because I never denied that it likely did. Happenings in the USA is what I know is happening for certain.

    7. She downplayed that, saying they weren’t in the US, like that made a difference. Obama’s female equivalent much?—See #6
    What I don’t understand is that if Blacks bear the brunt of racism and are targeted more, how does that NOT mean others, including Asians, don’t have it as bad? You can’t have it both ways.—You can’t have it both ways, but you can have it different ways. A concept that was repeated several times.

    I get you want to “expose” and show what a stand up guy you are to solitaire, but this exercise did nothing, but show how well you manipulate words and situations. I would feel sorry for you, but I really only have the capacity to feel sorry for people who choose to admit they have a problem. You may continue to obsessively engage me with false conclusions of my words.

    Liked by 2 people


  430. A while back he made a very anti-black comment that resulted in a large blow back. He later made an explanation that I and a few commenters accepted.

    I remember that. That was the comment I paraphrased from Legion’s many posts on “acceptable Blackness” within the Black community: for example, when he criticized Abagond for the way he treated Jorbia.

    At the time, I blindly agreed with Abagond and many Black commenters that she was just a defender of White supremacy but the more posts I read on this blog, the more I understand what Legion was upset about and butt heads with other Black commenters for.

    Like


  431. @ Sharina

    You continue to speak cordially with Solitaire yet at the same time, attack her for calling TheHipHopRecords names. How much lower will you go?

    Like


  432. @Kiwi

    And here you are creating a false issue. I never attached her.

    “How much lower will you go?”—Obviously not as low as you.

    Like


  433. attacked*

    Like


  434. @ Sharina

    I never attacked her.

    Right. None of the following was a jab at her.

    “While your sexism is wrong (although I felt a hint of sarcasm) I don’t believe what you said was wrong. Too much focus was put on falsely calling you an uncle tom and a refusal to acknowledge that clinging to whiteness exists in a lot of Asian countries. There was dismissal by calling you names rather than acknowledging the issues.”

    Like


  435. @Kiwi

    SMH….Me disagreeing with a method that she as well as others did is me disagreeing. But disagreeing is not an attack or jab or any other term you are going to try to change it to later. You want her to be mad at me because you are and that really is childish. Adults agree and disagree without animosity. Try it.

    Like


  436. @ Sharina

    Right. Accusing Solitaire of calling people names just shows that you think highly of her as an adult. Lie accepted.

    Like


  437. @Kiwi

    She as well as jefe did call him a uncle Tom, but pointing that out does not mean I think less of her. She also said he was sexist, which I agreed with but was name calling none the less. It simply means I disagree with him being called that to not address the issue. I have no issues with her, because we can agree to disagree without it being a slight to the other. #Adultlife

    Like


  438. One thing I will not do is play a tug of war with her. She can decided on her own what is and is not a slight, but you trying to create an issue. WOW.

    Like


  439. @ Sharina,

    What’s the point of arguing with “it”?
    You can’t argue with a LIAR.

    The arguer will always TWIST and misrepresent (on purpose) anything you state (to Muslims and Asians and Abagond says, or whatever..) to support THE LIE.

    The truth can’t and won’t save him.

    1 Fish live in water.
    2 Birds have wings.
    3 Vampires suck blood!
    4 and LIARS LIE.

    Spending your time with/on them (esp 3 & 4) will never change who and what they are.

    Liked by 3 people


  440. Kiwi, you must have a lot of time on your hands to be posting at all hours of the day and night!

    Like


  441. @Fan

    Great points!

    Reminds me of the tale of the Frog and the Scorpion.
    http://allaboutfrogs.org/stories/scorpion.html

    Like


  442. @Sharina

    Arguments about Muslim deaths are a red herring.
    http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html

    They represent a false equivalence tactic designed to distract you and put you on the defensive.

    It wastes of your time and energy.

    Liked by 1 person


  443. ” on Thu 19 May 2016 at 14:58:06
    Herneith

    Kiwi, you must have a lot of time on your hands to be posting at all hours of the day and night!”

    His granddad, Sheriff Harry Lee left him a fortune based extorting money from blacks.

    Like


  444. All kidding aside, I want to express my admiration for Kiwi, as one pain in the ass to another.

    Like


  445. @gro jo

    Ever the contrarian. LOL!

    Liked by 1 person


  446. @Sharina

    She as well as jefe did call him a uncle Tom

    I really don’t want to get into this, but neither Solitaire nor I ever called him an Uncle Tom. Please go back and check in case your forgot. He used that name himself alleging that other people were doing that.

    Solitaire said that he related about some of his behaviour that reflected “cozying up to whites” plus some other things that caused her to think he was acting “worse than an Uncle Tom”, and on that point, I happened to agree with her. That is all.

    Like


  447. @Gro Jo

    I’n just waiting on your I told you so.

    @Jefe

    Then I stand corrected in regards to either of you calling him an Uncle Tom, but the issue he presented still did not get addressed because the concern was what he was.

    Like


  448. @ Sharina

    I admit that I never fully addressed TheHipHopRecords on the issue of those Asians who “worship” whiteness, but it was largely because he never responded to my questions about his understanding of colonialism. I was ready to engage with him in a conversation about the reasons behind that worship, but he didn’t respond although I asked him more than once. Perhaps I should have gone ahead with my explanation anyway, but he didn’t seem interested.

    The elevation of whiteness and the existence of colorism in the PI and similar countries is a legacy of being colonized and subjugated by whites, who instituted a system where white people treated mixed-race and lighter-skinned Asians better. It cannot simply be reduced to “Asian chicks dig white guys.”

    There is also the issue of First World versus Third World. Those women he talked about didn’t hop into the sack just for the sheer pleasure of having sex with a white man. They are desperate to latch onto a white man who can be their ticket out of the Third World into a better life. That’s the reason some of those women are still e-mailing his white buddies 8 years later. I’m not condoning the behavior of these women, and I admit there is a bias towards white people in their actions. But the dynamic is far more complicated than TheHipHopRecords was framing it.

    In my opinion, the behavior of his white friends was worse than the behavior of the Filipinas. His white friends took advantage of brown poverty and white privilege to get easy sex from POC women who they have no respect for. Apparently the only thing TheHipHopRecords has a problem with is the Filipinas wouldn’t open their legs for him as well. He doesn’t see anything racist in the behavior of his white friends.

    If TheHipHopRecords had stuck with talking about skin lighteners and advertisements, I would have still brought in the issue of the legacy of white colonialism, but I would not have been so outraged and I would not have taken him to task.

    Liked by 1 person


  449. As far as Asians having the eyelid surgery, that comes out of the same place as African Americans having nose jobs or straightening their hair: internalized racism and self-hatred for not fitting the vaunted white standards of beauty. There may also be direct pressure from the white powers-that-be. For example, I have heard accounts of Asian American students in broadcast journalism programs being told they will need the eyelid surgery if they want to have a career.

    Like


  450. “sharinalr

    @Gro Jo

    I’n just waiting on your I told you so.”

    My dear, that would be witless of me. We all live and learn.

    Like


  451. @ Sharina

    “While I agreed above that the good does not outweigh the bad, it still needs to be acknowledge that those “privileges” help individuals better navigate through the system of white supremacy.”

    I want to ask something, but first let me say this is not a trick question. I’m asking sincerely to try to understand.

    Why is it important to you that non-black minorities make an overt and direct acknowledgment of those privileges? I don’t mean as opposed to their denying the privileges. I mean, why is it important to bring those privileges up before discussion of their hardships takes place? What does it mean for you as an African American to have that acknowlegment happen? What does it signify to you?

    Like


  452. @Solitaire

    One of the main reasons why I felt telling the Why was important is because a lot of people may not be aware of the history. Oddly I learned a small bit because of a Filipino drama, Amaya. It touched on it at the end of the drama series which really made me think in regards to how white colonization really destroyed such a vibrant culture.

    “But the dynamic is far more complicated than TheHipHopRecords was framing it.”—I agree it most certainly is not that simply. A while back I read an article on some of the reasons why they do it and latching on with hopes of leaving a third world is only one. Some harbored along the lines of rape because some of the women were not sure how to politely say no to these men. Though I understand where Hiphoprecords maybe coming from in the sense that if it were as simple as getting out, then why not get out with any seemingly eligible bachelor? That can be where white supremacy frame of mind takes over.

    I won’t purely speak for him, but I don’t think it was a matter of not seeing anything racist in his white friend (I could be wrong), but a matter of pointing out those women were racist. Regardless it all could be an issue of no sex with him to make him believe that.

    “As far as Asians having the eyelid surgery, that comes out of the same place as African Americans having nose jobs or straightening their hair: internalized racism and self-hatred for not fitting the vaunted white standards of beauty”—That is true, but it is an issue none the less. I am not sure how it is addressed in the Asian community, but I know a great deal is said about African Americans who choose to do that, especially more so with the unapologetic black attitude rising. In exchanges of the natural vs relaxer crowd I have found women that do straighten do so for a variety of reasons and not always to fit that white standard of beauty. Some do it because they feel straightening is more manageable aka my mother never taught me to care for my natural hair. Some see natural as too expensive. Some, such as myself, do it every 6 months (not chems just blow out) to see the length and to get a clear cut of split ends. Then you have the some that frankly deal with internalized racism. As for nose jobs, that is pure internalized racism and I usually just call people on it. Can’t speak for the others in the AA community.

    Like


  453. @Solitaire

    “Why is it important to you that non-black minorities make an overt and direct acknowledgment of those privileges? “—It is important that all groups do it. Not particularly just non-blacks. In my opinion you can not fully understand someone’s plight until you look at the situation through all aspects. If you analyze a situation are you just going to focus on one part of it? Is that one part going to give a clear understanding? I personally don’t think so. It simply opens the door for a person to be more willing to listen.

    “I mean, why is it important to bring those privileges up before discussion of their hardships takes place?”–Not before the discussions, but during the discussions. Lets look at it like this. During oppression Olympics does anyone discuss the plus? No, because they focus so much on how bad one or the other has it right? But is it not fair to say it could be worse? On top of that the good actually could be beneficial in helping other groups move up or break leeway towards breaking away from white supremacy.

    “What does it mean for you as an African American to have that acknowlegment happen?”—For me personally it is a step forward. It breaks down the walls put up to have a discussion. I have no problem acknowledging that I as a black heterosexual woman have privileges. I can use that privilege to help others. It is just saying “okay, I have this “privilege” what can I do to ensure you have it and to build” or “how can we fight white supremacy with this”

    I hope that makes sense.

    Like


  454. @ Sharina

    “One of the main reasons why I felt telling the Why was important is because a lot of people may not be aware of the history.”

    Very good point. I got so upset at TheHipHopRecords that I forgot there were other people reading along who might not be aware of the history and had the same questions.

    “Oddly I learned a small bit because of a Filipino drama, Amaya. It touched on it at the end of the drama series which really made me think in regards to how white colonization really destroyed such a vibrant culture.”

    Yes. And both the Spanish and the Americans set up a color-ranking system in the PI similar to what they did in the Americas. Colorism in the PI comes out of the very same dynamic as among African Americans. The white colonial rulers believed that mixed-race Filipino/as were “more civilized” and “more intelligent” than full-blooded Filipino/as. They were given many more opportunities for education and advancement than darker Filipino/as, but they were still considered much lower than whites.

    “A while back I read an article on some of the reasons why they do it and latching on with hopes of leaving a third world is only one. Some harbored along the lines of rape because some of the women were not sure how to politely say no to these men.”

    That is a very good point. Filipino culture is one of many Asian cultures where it is rude to say “no” directly. There are ways of saying “yes” which within that culture actually signify a polite “no.” Unless we could actually see what happened in that room, we don’t know but that some of these women actually weren’t willing. By the time they said an outright rude “no,” his white friend might not have cared.

    “Though I understand where Hiphoprecords maybe coming from in the sense that if it were as simple as getting out, then why not get out with any seemingly eligible bachelor? That can be where white supremacy frame of mind takes over.”

    I agree. I had already thought about that and as you pointed out, I should have gone ahead and written it. Obviously the Asian women are aware that black men in First World countries do not have the same amount of privilege and clout as white men. They are going to set their sights on the white man for that reason, and they may also have other prejudices against black men that they have picked up from white-based media, etc.

    “That is true, but it is an issue none the less. I am not sure how it is addressed in the Asian community, but I know a great deal is said about African Americans who choose to do that, especially more so with the unapologetic black attitude rising.”

    It is definitely being discussed but since there hasn’t been an unapologetic “yellow/brown is beautiful” moment yet, it is not quite the same. Maybe the discussion is more like it would have been in the African American community prior to the 1960s. I don’t quite know. But it isn’t just getting pushed under the rug. There are Asian Americans who definitely see it as a problem.

    “In exchanges of the natural vs relaxer crowd I have found women that do straighten do so for a variety of reasons and not always to fit that white standard of beauty.”

    That’s a good point. To make another comparison, there are some Asian Americans who lighten their hair to fir white standards of beauty, but there are others who do it as a quirky punk-like fashion statement. You can often tell the difference just by the cut and the way color is used.

    Like


  455. @ Sharina

    That was a very thoughtful and well-reasoned answer.

    I have a reply, but I first want to make a couple things clear. In my reply, I am going to do the thing Abagond does where he doesn’t write “some but not all” but he means that to be implied. I also do not mean any of this to be taken as directed at you personally, because it is not.

    Ok. I agree with everything you said. What I want to share is based on what I have often heard from Asian Americans, Hispanics, and Native Americans.

    From their point of view, they often feel like African Americans will not listen to them unless they first admit to having many privileges and being less discriminated against. They sometimes describe it as “the hoop we have to jump through every single time we want to talk about our experiences with racism.” They also complain that while they are expected to do this, their African American counterparts will not in turn admit to having any privileges. I’m not saying this is true or false, but just how it is commonly perceived on their end.

    “I as a black heterosexual woman have privileges.”

    I have found that, when a person of one race wants to bring up the privileges another race has, prefacing it with a statement like yours above often helps a great deal. It immediately sets up the understanding that you aren’t attacking them for being privileged. It signals that although you are about to ask them to discuss the privileges accorded to their group, you aren’t doing so to start another round of the Oppression Olympics. This works in all directions, of course. It would be just as true of, say, a Native American wanting to raise the topic of privilege among a non-Native minority group.

    “On top of that the good actually could be beneficial in helping other groups move up or break leeway towards breaking away from white supremacy.”

    Yes, this is a very good point. As Abagond pointed out in his new post on the two-race and three-race models, white supremacists want to use these privileges to shore up their racist system as they become a statistical minority. If those lighter-skinned Asians and white Hispanics resist this temptation, they could instead use those privileges to help break apart structural racism and white supremacy.

    Liked by 1 person


  456. @Solitaire

    “They also complain that while they are expected to do this, their African American counterparts will not in turn admit to having any privileges.”

    Solitaire, I am curious. What privileges do the Latinos, Asian Americans and Native Americans you have spoken to perceive African Americans/Blacks to possess?

    Like


  457. on Thu 19 May 2016 at 22:45:20 TeddyBearDaddy

    @Afrofem

    There’s still more Black Americans that Asian people in the US of A, so you have the privilege of ‘political power’. More Black athletes as well as actors and famous people in general in the west. Latinos come in all flavors but in general will someday assimilate as being ‘white’. I don’t know when but it is inevitable.

    Like


  458. @ Afrofem

    These are the ones that immediately come to mind. I’m sure there are more I’m forgetting.

    – the privilege of not being considered a foreigner in their own land

    – the privilege of not having to always carry a passport or tribal identity card because LEOs don’t consider driver’s licenses sufficient proof of citizenship

    – the privilege (at least in many cases) of having surnames that sound white, which prevents their resumes from immediately going into the trash

    – the privilege of not having white people assume they don’t understand English and therefore can be insulted or mocked without comprehending

    – the privilege of not having white people talk to them in broken English or pidgen (“you-ee lik-ee” or “heap big chief”)

    – the privilege of always being included when white leaders decide to do something about racial issues (see Abagond’s two-model race post for the example re Bill Clinton, but it happens at all levels)

    – the privilege of not having to worry at border crossings or international airports that they will be prevented from returning to their own country

    – and specifically in the case of Native Americans:
    – the privilege of not having white people assume you are all dead

    – the privilege of going to a sporting event without seeing your culture and race being mocked and trivialized

    Like


  459. @Solitaire

    I agree with the majority of what you said, but two common misconceptions need to be addressed.

    1. the privilege (at least in many cases) of having surnames that sound white, which prevents their resumes from immediately going into the trash.—-That is not entirely true as the surname may be white sounding but the first name being a black sounding one will undoubtedly result in that resume getting put in the trash. http://www.monster.com/career-advice/article/do-black-names-matter
    This is a controversial topic as many blacks have spoken about being conscience in choosing your child name as not to set them up, but issue should not be name but what they can bring to that company

    2. the privilege of not having white people talk to them in broken English or pidgen (“you-ee lik-ee” or “heap big chief”)—-Whites regularly try to speak to blacks in ebonics. Some view it as trying to be cool and harmless, but others due it purely out of racism. None the less the assumption is that blacks can not speak and do not speak proper English. So this is not one I would say we have the privilege of.

    Like


  460. cautious*

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  461. I dunno. It seems the starting point of any conversation about race should be white supremacy/privilege and how that interferes with your life, not the presumed benifits that white supremacy dolles out to non whites.

    For those who are not white to ask, “I checked my privilege, have you checked yours ?” that seems like a deflection away from white supremacy and a redirection back at the individuale affected by white racism.

    It is about your rights, how they are inalienable and self evident. The question is the level of interference and where that interference is directed at in your life. It is different for every group dominated by white supremacy. It is about exercising your rights free from interference. That is the pursuit of happiness.

    Like


  462. @TeddyBearDaddy

    I agree with you about Latino’s becoming White in the future.

    The “political power” you mention is a mirage. There are a lot of Black politicians, but they don’t necessarily translate into true power (or respect) for Black people.

    One example is the response to a Klan rally in Memphis, TN in 2013.

    Memphis is majority Black and awash in Black politicians, police and other officials. In 2013, the KKK decided to hold a rally in Memphis and the response of city officials was the opposite of power. According to a community group called Black Autonomy, the Klan was coddled by the city and Black protestors threatened with arrest and intimidated for peaceful protest:

    “After the Ku Klux Klan announced their intention to hold a Klan protest demonstration in Memphis for March 30, 2013, Black Autonomy, through its mass anti-racist group, the Ida B. Wells Coalition Against Racism and Police Brutality, applied for a permit to hold a anti-Klan protest at city hall. This city permits office referred this to a group of businessmen to make a decision, rather than the agency, who falsely told the group that it was “already booked by a sing-along group” for that date. After protesting this, Black Autonomy submitted another permit application to the permits office, but this too was denied, claiming that it was “not safe”. We finally filed another permit, and this was approved, but only after we had to threaten them with a lawsuit against the city.

    When the police plans for the event were announced publicly, it was clear that 13 square city blocks were deemed a “Klan safety zone” near the Shelby County Courthouse downtown. Barbed wire was strung all through the location, and city residents could not walk or drive through the area, and any person found there was subject to arrest if they would not immediately leave the area.

    However, the conditions of approval were clearly unconstitutional. We were forced to go into a “free speech cage” surrounded by a gauntlet of riot police inside, and other police directly facing the protesters, and with snipers on a roof having rifles trained on us. We were stripped of all picket signs, or other pieces of paper, protest banners, or other materials to protest the Klan event, or to express any First amendment rights at all. People were denied entry if they had “offensive” t-shirts that police did not like, expressed any point of view against the Klan or the heavy police presence.

    Black Autonomy was especially singled out for threats of arrest, even in a park where we were having a meeting outside the so-called “protest perimeter” before the protest began, with police holding the position that no one in the entire city could hold a protest except at two locations, one set up by the cops and the other setup by the Mayor and Chamber of Commerce some 10 miles away. If you would not agree to this, you were subject to instant arrest. This was clearly police state abuse of authority, and it was enforced by threat of use of force.

    The Klan by contrast was allowed to keep its banners, arrived by a special city bus, had a special security detachment, and were given special privileges that no citizen of Memphis was allowed. The Mayor and other officials took the posture that we were “rioter” because of some event that happen in 1998, 15 years previous. We were not Memphis residents in 1998, and in fact many of the protesters were so young that 15 years ago they were children, but this did not matter, it was the white racists whose rights that mattered, not ours, and we were guilty of planning a “riotous assembly”, so our rights were suspended.”

    http://blackautonomyfederation.blogspot.com/2014/09/police-counterinsurgency-against.html

    TeddyBearDaddy, all that glitters is not gold, or power in this case.

    Liked by 2 people


  463. @ Solitaire

    I’m aware of exceptions to the privileges you listed. However, it is good to examine things from another perspective.

    Thank you for your detailed answer. If you can think of more, please list them.

    Like


  464. @michaeljonbarker

    I get what you are saying and I will go into more detail as best I can later, but the discussion about white supremacy never gets had because the oppression Olympics takes over. It clouds the discussion because the idea is “I had it worse”. Once that barrier can be broken, then I think people can see how white supremacy has screwed them over and come up with a more concrete plan to address it.

    Liked by 1 person


  465. @ Afrofem

    “I’m aware of exceptions to the privileges you listed.”

    I am, too. But I think those privileges in the list are not in and of themselves the main complaint. They mostly just want to be able to have their experiences with racism to be heard, respected, and honored. They don’t want to feel that their own struggles are minimized or discounted.

    @ Sharina

    “That is not entirely true as the surname may be white sounding but the first name being a black sounding one will undoubtedly result in that resume getting put in the trash.”

    I know, that’s why I focused on surnames. This is actually something my partner struggles with a great deal, because he has been in situations where he has advised black students with those types of first names to put on their resume their initials or a shortened version of their name that sounds more “white”–but he hates doing that, he always tells them it will help them get ahead but at the same time denies their heritage etc. and advises them to think hard about it before they decide. People in the other three groups also can have first names as well as surnames that sound obviously non-white, and he has had the same talk with them. I would point out one difference, though: it is easier to conceal a first name by using initials, a shortening, or a white-sounding nickname. To conceal an ethnic-sounding surname you would have to go through a legal name change, which would feasibly then be passed down to later generations. It is more costly, more time-consuming, and a lasting erasure of heritage.

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  466. @ Solitaire

    From their point of view, they often feel like African Americans will not listen to them unless they first admit to having many privileges and being less discriminated against. They sometimes describe it as “the hoop we have to jump through every single time we want to talk about our experiences with racism.” They also complain that while they are expected to do this, their African American counterparts will not in turn admit to having any privileges. I’m not saying this is true or false, but just how it is commonly perceived on their end.

    You nailed it in one paragraph. This ties back to what I said about a significant number of Blacks who see themselves as front and center in the national conversation on race. Given my experience with Asians supporting Black History Month but not Asian History Month and having a Black mural but not an Asian mural at an Asian school, I feel like as third race people, we are being pushed aside. Not just by Whites, but also by Blacks.

    Another “privilege” I would add that Blacks have is that at schools and universities, America’s history of race relations is taught overwhelmingly from a Black/White dominated perspective. In K-12, we were taught about slavery, Jim Crow, Harlem Renaissance, MLK, Rosa Parks, Harriet Tubman, the Underground Railroad, etc. In other words, “Blacks this, Whites that, blah blah”. We learned some history about other PoC, but it wasn’t framed in terms of race relations vis a vis Whites like it was done for Blacks and was sort of “on the side”, like an afterthought. And this was at schools where most students of color were Asian!

    Even university professors make the same cringeworthy mistake of talking about race in Black/White terms. In an English class, the professor gave a reading assignment about race’s role in advertisement. You may guess which races were discussed and which weren’t. In a psychology class, the Black professor talked about race. All she had to say about Asians was that they were the Model Minority and were seen as smarter. I heard White students laughing. You may guess why. And in a social statistics class, a Hispanic professor only talked about Whte supremacy’s effect on Blacks in the South when she discussed race. Another psychology professor talked about race and every time, she only brings up Blacks, like they’re the “go to” minority for anything and everything about race. The fact that so many have this mindset of race as a Black/White thing and teach it at schools that are mostly non-Black minorities is insane. This all happened in California, a state where almost all people of color are third race!

    In schools across the country, our national conversation on race has been warped into this false Black/White dichotomy that not just White and Black professors keep touting, but even other races have been programmed into eating up and regurgitating. So when I hear that Blacks bear the brunt of racism or anything along those lines, I wonder whether that really is the reality or if that is merely due to Asians, Natives, and Latinos being killed or driven out and then having their histories removed from the curriculum.

    It also makes me sick how people could say that the Model Minority stereotype can confer any kind of “privilege” when Asian American children have the highest rate of bullying in the country, well above all other races, because of the stereotype. Maybe if enough Asian kids get their faces bashed in, people will see how being seen as weak, nerdy pushovers doesn’t privilege you in any way.

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  467. @Solitaire

    “They mostly just want to be able to have their experiences with racism to be heard, respected, and honored. They don’t want to feel that their own struggles are minimized or discounted.”

    That seems to be a universal desire.

    I’ve had eye-opening face to face conversations with a range of people from other ethnic groups about their experiences with both inter- and intra-ethnic bigotry. There is a lot to be learned. Getting to the point of talking face to face can be challenging sometimes, but worth it.

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  468. “2. the privilege of not having white people talk to them in broken English or pidgen (“you-ee lik-ee” or “heap big chief”)—-Whites regularly try to speak to blacks in ebonics. Some view it as trying to be cool and harmless, but others due it purely out of racism. None the less the assumption is that blacks can not speak and do not speak proper English. So this is not one I would say we have the privilege of.”

    My personal opinion is that this is one case where it would be fair to say that the two experiences are different but similar. It isn’t really a privilege on either side because the assumptions that racist white people make are the same. It just gets expressed differently: pidgin in one situation, in the other ebonics.

    Like


  469. @ Kiwi

    “Another “privilege” I would add that Blacks have is that at schools and universities, America’s history of race relations is taught overwhelmingly from a Black/White dominated perspective.”

    To be fair — and as someone who is older and remembers when this history was barely taught — black people have fought to make this happen. But yes, it is true that in mainstream history classes (as opposed to ethnic studies) and in other disciplines, race is taught in the black/white model. An African American can take it for granted that when racial issues in America are taught in the classroom, their race and experience will not be left out. The others not so much.

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  470. @ Solitaire

    black people have fought to make this happen.

    Obviously, they did. They had the numbers to be heard. Others, not so much. They got killed off.

    But guess what? jefe got shouted down for saying that. So much for inclusion of different voices.

    Like


  471. @ Kiwi

    I understand your anger about that. I do think people have the right to question and challenge. But there needs to be a way of doing it while still being respectful and honoring the pain and suffering those ancestors endured.

    Like


  472. @ Solitaire

    But there needs to be a way of doing it while still being respectful and honoring the pain and suffering those ancestors endured.

    You are free to disagree, but in my book, claiming that any one group bore the brunt of racial discrimination erases and trivializes the pain and suffering of other groups.

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  473. @ Kiwi

    “You are free to disagree, but in my book, claiming that any one group bore the brunt of racial discrimination erases and trivializes the pain and suffering of other groups.”

    I categorically refuse to take sides in the argument between you and Sharina about what exactly she wrote and how exactly she meant it.

    I will, however, state that you’ve pretty much summed up another aspect of the Oppression Olympics. It isn’t just a competition over who suffered most; the arguing also makes everyone feel that the others have trivialized their experiences. Even if a winner emerges out of a particular Olympics session, they are going to feel hurt and angry about things that were said about their experiences during the arguing. It is a lose/lose game.

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  474. @ Solitaire

    the arguing also makes everyone feel that the others have trivialized their experiences.

    Don’t look at me. I’m not the one claiming Asians or another group dealt with the brunt of racial discrimination.

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  475. @ Afrofem

    I’ve thought of another perceived privilege, or maybe more accurately, perceived power. This is going to be a touchy one, I think, but I’ve decide to go ahead and describe it. Please keep in mind that I’m not saying this is true but instead reporting the commonly held perception as I have frequently heard it expressed.

    African Americans are often seen by the other racial minorities as having the power of gatekeeper to diversity resources. I’m most familiar with higher ed. so I will take my examples from there, but this happens also in places like city government, public schools, etc.

    For example, the majority of diversity-related positions in higher education are held by African Americans. This has begun to shift during the last 20 years, but it is still the case at most institutions. At many schools, the predominant diversity resources are for African Americans: black culture centers, black studies programs, black graduation ceremonies, etc.

    Now, a big reason for this is the Civil Rights Movement and the work done by black people to get these centers and resources established in the first place. That part is understandable.

    But there is a perception that now, many decades later, the African American faculty and adminstrators have solidified control over these resources. They may not have the same amount of privilege as the white professors in other areas of university life. But they are seen by Latin@s, Native Americans, and Asian Americans as definitely having control in this specific area. There is a perception that to get something like a multicultural center with departments for all the racial minorities, they have to deal with not just the white gatekeepers who hold the purse strings but the black gatekeepers who have to be convinced that this project will not be detrimental for black concerns.

    So diversity itself is an area where the other three groups feel that African Americans have more control, and especially control over whether the other three groups will be taken into consideration.

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  476. @ Kiwi

    I categorically refuse to take sides in the argument between you and Sharina about what exactly she wrote and how exactly she meant it.

    Liked by 1 person


  477. Solitaire,

    Thank you kindly for your brief initial list of privileges that blacks tend to enjoy over other non-black POC. It helps to shed some light on the situation.

    A few others came to mine, vis-a-vis Asians and Native Americans (and also Arabs / middle Easterners), eg,

    – Comfort in knowing that they will not be the “go to” race for racial abuse by prominent national figures who get away with it. It has been brought up here before on this blog, but neither Stephen Colbert nor Chris Rock will have to face any national condemnation or pull-out of sponsors or any significant deleterious effect on them (unlike, for example, what happened to Paula Deen).

    – Never having to worry much about “Blackface”, at least for the past 70 years or so (whereas Yellowface and Redface are still with us and as strong as ever, as is, I am not sure what to call it, but “arab face”).

    – Not ever having to face the question about which country they would support if the USA and (whatever African country) went to war. This is a corollary of the Perpetual Foreigner syndrome, but it is not trivial. The national loyalties were not only questioned during WWII, or during the Red Scare in the 1950s, but it has never gone away and explains why many Asians are targeted for treason or espionage today and why all of the major wars that they USA has been in involved in for the past 70 years are in Asia. The next one will be in Asia too, so we must keep our eyes on the South China Sea.

    – Not having to worry as much about how much white people (esp. white liberals) will trivialize their experience. Whites do trivialize the experience of blacks to an exceeding amount, but still not nearly as much as they trivialize the others. (I apologize that this is stepping slightly over the line into the Oppression Olympics debate, but as I will mention again below, things having credence only if white people say it).

    I have many more in my mind, maybe I can share as soon as I can put them down into words.

    I felt rather uncomfortable (ie, cringetastic) regarding your explanation why Black American history is more prominent in the US than Asian American history (or even Native American or Latino history) as being due to their having fought for this inclusion over a number of years. There are at least 3 reasons for this:

    1. Asians (and Latinos and Natives) have been fighting all along for inclusion in the US historical narrative.

    This is, after all, Asian Pacific American Heritage Month. How do you think it came about in the first place? It is because Asians were completely omitted from the 1976 Bicentennial Celebrations, and people worked tirelessly to insert the APA experience into the national narrative. However, even after 40 years, it is still largely absent, most prominently from communities which are majority Asian American. That does not mean that people have not been fighting for it.

    2. There has been a concerted effort to remove, even ban, the narrative about those experiences in the USA

    You don’t have to go any further then stuff like the ban in Arizona on ethnic studies (esp. on Mexican American studies) or the complete removal / deletion of any information on the Lenape or the original inhabitants of New York at the National Museum of the American Indian in New York City. I am sure Kiwi can expound on the virtually complete expungement of Asian American history in majority Asian American schools and communities. Angel Island is close enough to where he grew up to do a one-day school field trip. Did he ever do it?

    Even I went to visit Ellis Island in New York City.

    Can you imagine if the state of South Carolina imposed a complete ban on, say, the mention of Sullivan’s island in school, the slave trade, ante-bellum plantation life for blacks, sharecropping, Jim Crow, etc. in its public educational institutions and mainstream discourse?

    3. You trivialized the real effect of genocide

    I admit that this steps over the line into Oppression Olympics again, but (for reasons mentioned below), your opinion does matter on this. If you wipe people out, then their narrative is lost. It is easily replaced with another narrative (eg, when you, “to be fair”, brought up the “genocide” in the Middle Passage to explain why blacks are sensitive to this vis-à-vis the genocide of both Native Americans and Asians, which occurred on a much larger magnitude. This is despite the Native American genocide being the unmentioned narrative staring us straight in the face every day.)

    Now to my final point.

    Abagond has mentioned many times on his blog how information about POC experience lacks credibility unless white people state it. But now, it should be obvious that it is not just credibility for white audiences, but for other POC audiences as well. Ever wonder why that is?

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  478. @Solitaire,

    I sent in my last post before I read yours immediately before that. Thank you again for another explanation why there has been so much exclusion and deletion in the national narrative about Asian, Native and Latino history and affairs. Blacks are now largely in control of this as gatekeepers of the diversity experience.

    But, again, I am reminded of the last paragraph of my immediate prior post.

    Like


  479. Sometimes I wonder if the reason we even hear about the Japanese American internment at all is because it didn’t escalate all the way to genocide. The survivors lived to tell the tale.

    Like


  480. @ jefe

    “I felt rather uncomfortable (ie, cringetastic) regarding your explanation why Black American history is more prominent in the US than Asian American history (or even Native American or Latino history) as being due to their having fought for this inclusion over a number of years.”

    I apologize, but please allow me to explain that I didn’t mean it as a thorough explanation in any shape or form. It was a quick aside to Kiwi to say his educational experience is not the same as that of many of us in this discussion, and maybe also meant as a reminder to them that Kiwi is speaking from the experience of someone who doesn’t remember those days. I did not mean to imply anything more by that, and I apologize for not wording it more carefully. I was aware of some of the following information you wrote about efforts by other racial minorities to be included in the curriculum, but some of that information was new to me, and I thank you for sharing it and helping me expand my knowledge.

    As concerns your last point, I have been uneasily aware of that fact this whole time and was wondering if it would be mentioned and by whom. It is a valid question.

    Like


  481. @ jefe

    Abagond has mentioned many times on his blog how information about POC experience lacks credibility unless white people state it. But now, it should be obvious that it is not just credibility for white audiences, but for other POC audiences as well. Ever wonder why that is?

    I suspect even Abagond has fallen for the Asian American narrative as told by Whites.

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/03/24/is-america-still-genocidal/#comment-237306

    He mentioned in his post on the future of race in America that Chinese Americans (and Asians, generally) are at the highest risk of genocide but didn’t point to America’s past genocide of Chinese Americans (arguably stage 8). I recall him saying genocides tend to recur in the same places. I would add that it applies to the same ethnicities.

    Like


  482. ” on Fri 20 May 2016 at 07:06:58
    Kiwi

    Sometimes I wonder if the reason we even hear about the Japanese American internment at all is because it didn’t escalate all the way to genocide. The survivors lived to tell the tale.”

    Ha,ha. More bs from Sheriff Harry Lee’s grandson.

    The reason you’ve heard of the Japanese American internment is because of people like Yuri Kochiyama and her husband, Harlem residents who worked with people like Malcolm X.

    From Elijah Muhammad, who went to jail rather than go to war against Japan, to Malcolm X and Muhammad Ali, who stated “no Vietcong ever called me nigger”, and lost millions of dollars, and risked losing his freedom because of his stance against the war, some blacks refused to fight Asians for principled reasons. What have you contributed that remotely compares to their sacrifices?

    There’s no comparison between the role of blacks and any other group in western society as the vanguard in the struggle for human liberation.

    Note to Abagond the banned word is part of a quote so it should be allowed.

    Liked by 2 people


  483. @ Jefe

    As far as concerns my comment to Kiwi regarding the Middle Passage and cultural genocide, I was not trying to equate those to any other genocide. I have been in enough workshops where these discussions take place to know that when genocide is the subject, African Americans bring up the Middle Passage and cultural genocide. The recognition of those events is very important to them, and that’s what I was talking about: what a delicate process it can be to balance what each group feels they need to have acknowledged.

    But if you want to get down to brass tacks, the largest and most devastating genocide was that of the Native Americans, hands down. Entire Nations wiped off the face of the earth. Eliminated entirely, every last man, woman, and child. Others losing 90% to 99% of their population — even now there are small tribes staring imminent extinction in the face. There you have it: my personal opinion on the question of genocide on the North American continent.

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  484. @ Solitaire

    One distinction I would add, though, is that the genocide of Natives is acknowledged, at least among antiracists and activists. Even among these groups, there seems to be resistance to the idea that or a complete unawareness that there was a genocide of Chinese. Even Abagond does not acknowledge it as such, and to me, that is very telling.

    Like


  485. ^^^

    What makes it easier to deny a genocide of Asians is that they can be stereotyped as foreigners. “They weren’t killed. They never came here in the first place.” To prove a genocide of Natives, one only needs to point to all the land the country sits on top of.

    Like


  486. @ Solitaire

    Another “privilege” that Asians perceive Blacks to have is affirmative action. From an early age, there is an understanding that programs meant to uplift people of color are directed exclusively towards non-Asian minorities. In SAT prep courses, it is normal to tell Asian students to conceal their race when applying to college whereas Blacks, Hispanics, or Natives are encouraged to emphasize their race. I’ve noticed from Blacks and Hispanics that there is a reluctance, even resistance, to the idea of removing Asian quotas in college admissions. The idea is that there are too many Asians in top schools and that Asians are “overrepresented” already, so what are they complaining about? In that respect, they actually sound a lot like Whites.

    In terms of college admissions disputes, I’ve gotten the impression that the social fault line is more between Asians and everyone else rather than between Whites and people of color.

    Like


  487. @ Solitaire

    I cannot remember the number of times I’ve heard Asians say that getting into a music or sports career would be so much easier or successful if they were Black. Yet another “privilege” Blacks are perceived to have.

    Like


  488. @ Solitaire

    At this point, I’m beating a dead horse, but Obama is still another example of “privilege” that Blacks have that Asians don’t.

    Like


  489. @Solitaire

    the Middle Passage and cultural genocide. The recognition of those events is very important to them

    Yes, but isn’t everyone here already recognizing that?

    if you want to get down to brass tacks, the largest and most devastating genocide

    That brings us back into Oppression Olympics again.

    But is there anyone here who is failing to acknowledge that genocide also?

    The problem here is more about the ones which have been denied, not the ones that we already fully acknowledge and recognize.

    Maybe we need a post on how to “quantify a genocide”, but it is difficult to do that without it creating another Oppression Olympics game.

    Like


  490. I cannot remember the number of times I’ve heard Asians say that getting into a music or sports career would be so much easier or successful if they were Black.

    That was another privilege I almost was going to mention. My brother is a university basketball coach. Yet he has been passed over dozens of times as the institutions have specifically expressed or implied that they only intended to hire a black coach for the positions.

    I originally didn’t want to mention this, as I imagine that blacks might be disadvantaged in other fields where some employers prefer to hire Asians (eg, back office systems programmers, maybe?).

    It still won’t be acknowledged as a privilege, however, until a white person co-signs it apparently.

    My brother did find another position last year, but he had to move out-of-state, curiously to a HBCU, that has become majority white in recent years. I suppose that it is difficult to attract blacks to move to the center of Appalachia.

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  491. In technology, at least in Silicon Valley, Asians and Hispanics suffer greater income disparities relative to Whites than Blacks do after equalizing for education.

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  492. I also cannot remember the number of times that I’ve heard women of all races say (directly or through friends/social media) that they would be happy to date White guys or Black guys or any guy but an Asian guy. Black men have the “privilege” of being seen as sexual where Asian men do not.

    Like


  493. In my college experience, Asians are often left out of studies and textbooks that discuss race using data. The focus seems to always be on Blacks and Hispanics.

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  494. So the Asian Superiority thread has now flipped to the Black privilege argument.

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  495. “So the Asian Superiority thread has now flipped to the Black privilege argument.”

    @MJB

    It’s beginning to read more like a long list of Asian Grievances against Blacks, and other PoC – virtually everyone except Asians! Oh, and Muslims and Middle Easterners!

    These _____ are the equivalent of Race Realists — of the asian variety!

    Where’s my teeny tiny (sympathy) violin at?

    Liked by 4 people


  496. @ michaeljonbarker

    Oh, you mean to say you’ve never talked about Asian privilege?

    Double standards aside, the conversation about Black “privilege” is to highlight why third-race people may perceive Blacks to have advantages where they do not. The fact that you make the exact same sort of arguments when talking about Asians should be a lesson to you on the fallacy behind this thinking.

    Or maybe you just don’t care. You have absolutely no qualms in being complicit with the marginalization of third-race people. Well, at least you care about some races.

    Like


  497. @Solitaire

    Regarding the names. The questions for me is whether or not they can get away with just putting their initials on a resume and names like Jamal or Marcus can not be shortened to sound more white. I will ask my friend who is hr rep. for a well known company. She will be able to give more insight into whether or not such actions are even passable.

    In the mean time that is why this type of grievance is one I can not take seriously, because of the fact that it is not something blacks can always easily get away with.

    Like


  498. @michaeljonbarker and Fan …

    That is exactly what it has turned into because some of these “privileges” are not even a privilege. For example the sports one, I’m blacks and I would not even be considered for basketball (too short), football (not a male), or baseball (not interested). A lot has to do with body type in my opinion, which no one can help.

    On the flip side to talk of Asian privileges…. “oppression Olympics”.

    Like


  499. @Gro Jo

    Interesting you mention that. Here is a post from The Love Life of An Asain Guy

    “I see way too many Asian activists so wrapped up in their activism that they step into a lane that only Black folks can stand in.
    This is NOT okay. Shit, some of us will DEMAND that Black folks do the work for us:
    “What about us Asians?!”
    “YOUR ACTIVISM DOESN’T INCLUDE US ASIANS!”
    NO, MF! It just doesn’t work that way!!! Let them take care of themselves! They need to support each other more than we need a second hand.
    Besides, historically, all of the social progress made by the Black community has trickled down and quenched EVERY OTHER POC GROUP’S thirst. Black issues (voting rights, workplace discrimination, gentrification) ARE POC ISSUES.
    Don’t be selfish. Sit back, observe, listen, amplify, and repeat.
    “When you’re in a black group, you have to keep in mind you’re not black. You just have to be sensitive. We have to be appreciative that the black nationalist struggle is a nationalist struggle.” – Yuri Kochiyama
    P.S. Happy Birthday, Yuri!”

    https://www.facebook.com/theLLAG/?fref=nf

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  500. @ Sharina

    “Regarding the names. The questions for me is whether or not they can get away with just putting their initials on a resume and names like Jamal or Marcus can not be shortened to sound more white. I will ask my friend who is hr rep. for a well known company. She will be able to give more insight into whether or not such actions are even passable.”

    Please let me know what she says. I’m interested because it is, as I wrote, something my partner and his colleagues advise but with reluctance. It would be interesting to know whether it’s even effective. I’m sure that once people are to the stage of filling out official forms, they have to provide their full name, but I do believe it’s possible to conceal it at the time of initially sending out your resume.

    Just going from my own personal experience, I worked for several years with an Korean American woman who used a white-sounding nickname. I know the initials of her Korean given name but to this day do not know what the initials stand for. I asked a couple times, but she said it sounds like something vulgar in English and she was too embarrassed to say. Growing up, she had taken a lot of grief from being taunted about her name. I guess if I really wanted, I could use one of those identity background searches on the internet to find out, but the point is that in her professional life she was able to adopt a nickname and use it without ever revealing her true given name to probably 95% or more of the people she worked with.

    I also have three white family members who are the 3rd or 4th of their name and have always gone by a nickname since childhood (for example, my one uncle is named Hiram but somehow got nicknamed Pete as a child). Although they aren’t doing it for ethnic reasons, all of them have continued in adulthood to use their nickname as their given name except on official forms.

    The way it is done is on the top of the resume or on a business card, someone whose name is Maria Josefina Santos would write “M.J. “Josie” Santos. And actually one of the examples you gave, Marcus, is easily shortened to Marc or Mark. But you are correct that unless someone changed their first name legally, there would be forms in the HR office with their full name.

    Now that I think about it, this is also a big issue for people transitioning because even if they have legally changed their name, the paper trail of their college transcripts, birth certificate, etc all have a name that reflects the other gender. That is not quite the same issue, but it does mean their official papers can reveal a secret that could keep them from getting hired for discriminatory reasons.

    Like


  501. @Fan

    “Where’s my teeny tiny (sympathy) violin at?”

    LMAO! Too funny!

    Like


  502. @ gro jo

    The reason you’ve heard of the Japanese American internment is because of people like Yuri Kochiyama

    Good thing she lived through it, right? Had the internment turned to genocide, you likely wouldn’t even be talking about her.

    There’s no comparison between the role of blacks and any other group in western society as the vanguard in the struggle for human liberation.

    You mean like when a Black civil rights organization wrote FDR a congratulations letter after the Japanese American internment.

    Like


  503. It is true that 19th century Chinese immigrants in the US suffered greatly from poor working conditions, physical violence and inflammatory media attacks. They also faced organized resistance by Euro-Americans (especially labor unions) and a series of White Supremacist laws designed to deny them entry, residence or citizenship.    According to an article by Professor Yunqui Zhang,
    (Note: the website with the original article is no longer active.)

    “Chinese immigrants were frequent victims of racial discrimination then prevalent in the United States, suffering various mistreatments such as harassment, mob attacks, massacres, and restrictive or exclusionary legislation, local and federal. At the federal level, the US Congress passed a series of exclusion laws in 1882, 1888, 1892, and 1894 that prohibited Chinese laborers from entering the United States. This prohibition was extended to include Hawaii in 1898 and the Philippines in 1900—Chinese laborers in these regions also were not allowed to come to the United States. Meanwhile, the “exempted” groups of Chinese who were permitted to enter the United States—officials, teachers, students, journalists, merchants, and travelers—were often subjected to abuses and humiliations.”

    However, the Chinese were not helpless victims. They fought back with labor actions and lawsuits in America. They were not able to gain much traction until the Chinese back home in China planned and carried out a masterful action that had dramatic results: an economic boycott of American goods in 1905.

    According to Professor Zhang: The Chinese in China …”were outraged by the American mistreatment of Chinese immigrants and were ready to take actions to support the cause of their Chinese compatriots in the United States.  The Chinese decided the most effective form of protest would be an economic boycott of American made goods.  “…[Chinese] merchants, as the leading group of the boycott, stopped ordering or selling American goods, mostly consumer goods such as cotton textiles, petroleum, matches, cigarettes, flour, and other items in daily use—soap, candles, cosmetics, hardware, and stationery.”

    The 1905 boycott spread to all of the major cities in China and cost American manufacturers and merchants $30 to 40$ million dollars in lost trade and revenues.  That would translate to billions of dollars today.

    US businesses were so exasperated by the boycott that they even broached the subject of revising the Chinese Exclusion Acts.  American labor unions and anti-Asian groups resisted those moves. The actual boycott lasted less than a year and was eventually undermined by the Chinese government frightened by the passion and unity of the Chinese population.  

    While the boycott did not achieve its stated objectives, it did have one major impact.  According to Iris Chang’s 2003 book, The Chinese In America, (pages 142 to 144) anti-Chinese harassment, anti-Chinese mob violence and inflammatory media attacks fell dramatically. 

    Anti-Chinese attitudes didn’t change and the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 remained in effect until 1943, but violent behavior such as lynching became unacceptable.  The Chinese Boycott of 1905 imposed a real financial cost that the US business class was not willing to pay and they muzzled working class Whites. 

    That one action, over a century ago, produced lasting results. It is one reason why Chinese Americans and other Asian American groups can count on one hand recent victims of state violence or mob violence. The boycott was a master stroke——it bloodied the noses of major White players (such as merchants, publishers and politicians) in the US and gave them a lesson they haven’t forgotten for decades.

    Mahatma Gandhi made this comment about the the Anti-American Boycott of 1905:

    “In all this commotion one thing stands out clear, namely, that where there is unity, there alone is strength, and also victory. This deserves to be carefully borne in mind by every Indian. The Chinese, though weak, appear to have become strong on account of their unity, thereby bearing out the truth of the Gujarati verse, “Thus do ants when united take the life of a fierce snake”.

    Liked by 2 people


  504. @Kiwi

    “You mean like when a Black civil rights organization wrote FDR a congratulations letter after the Japanese American internment.”

    Please provide a link.

    Like


  505. @ Kiwi

    Do you have free access to the journal article through your school? If so, could you please quote the relevant text?

    Like


  506. @Kiwi

    The link led to a one page preview of Greenberg’s Black and Jewish Responses to Japanese Internment.

    Like


  507. @ Afrofem @ alia

    Do you think it would help any in these types of discussions if the word “privilege” was reserved for Euro-Americans and white privilege? Instead of saying, “As an African American, I acknowledge I have such-and-such privilege,” would it be easier to say something like “I acknowledge that such-and-such is a form of racism that your group deals with and my group is not likely to encounter.”

    Privilege seems like such a heavily weighted word. I’m not saying the word is the crux of the matter, but I wonder if that particular word sticks in the throat.

    I know that for myself as a woman, it is easier to admit to white privilege or heterosexual privilege than to gender-related privilege.

    Liked by 1 person


  508. @ Solitaire @ Afrofem

    Do you have free access to the journal article through your school?

    *facepalms*

    Wow! I didn’t think about that. So much for freedom of information, right? My apologies.

    Assuming its national records are complete, the NUL’s national board held no discussions at all about the evacuation order or made any public or private statements about it. In fact, in September 1942 its staff conference passed a resolution expressing to the President its deep appreciation of steps taken toward the elimination of racial discrimination in the war effort which it defined as applying to all Americans regardless of race, religion or national origin.

    The rest of what I read painted a much grimmer portrait of supposed Black American “support” for Asian American causes but the format blocks me from copying and pasting the text and I’m not going to sit here typing out a whole book.

    Like


  509. @ Kiwi

    NUL = National Urban League?
    .
    .
    .
    I thought from what you wrote upthread that the group sent a letter to FDR specifically praising the Japanese-American internment. But this is still bad. I see your point.

    Just curious: what does the article say the Jewish response was like?

    Like


  510. Solitare asks,

    “Do you think it would help any in these types of discussions if the word “privilege” was reserved for Euro-Americans and white privilege?”

    Exactly. I was going to bring it up yesterday and then decided that the thread was already derailed and didn’t need any more side issues.

    Like


  511. @Kiwi

    I also cannot remember the number of times that I’ve heard women of all races say (directly or through friends/social media) that they would be happy to date White guys or Black guys or any guy but an Asian guy.

    OKCupid showed that Asian male get a higher response than black men as far as replies to women go

    Princess Diana dated an Asian Doctor

    http://www.vanityfair.com/style/royals/2013/09/princess-diana-love-hasnat-khan

    Had she dated a black guy, that would have caused a much bigger commotion. But a lot of non black men seem to think that lots of non-black women have this hidden obsession for black men.

    This is not completely untrue

    But the fact is a black man who wishes to consider romantic options outside of the black community will face many substantial challenges. The typical black male is not that hot of a ticket as far as non-black women are concerned

    Black men have the “privilege” of being seen as sexual where Asian men do not.

    True, but as a black man if you do fail a shit test, you’re beyond finished. Even though black men seemingly have the “assumed sexual” advantage when approaching, the margin for error is razor-thin. Nothing is more unattractive than a black beta male.

    Most times when I’ve failed a single shit test I have rarely been given a chance to redeem myself, if at all. Even when my game was air-tight to that point, if I took the smallest bite of that beta chum I could almost see the attraction drain out of her body.

    You nailed it in one paragraph. This ties back to what I said about a significant number of Blacks who see themselves as front and center in the national conversation on race.

    That’s because black people have been front and centre in the national conversation on race.

    Given my experience with Asians supporting Black History Month but not Asian History Month and having a Black mural but not an Asian mural at an Asian school

    Really. So Asians support black history month ? Really Dude ?

    I feel like as third race people, we are being pushed aside. Not just by Whites, but also by Blacks

    .Well Asian need put in that work. Raise hell. Put your bodies on the line. Do something.

    Another “privilege” I would add that Blacks have is that at schools and universities, America’s history of race relations is taught overwhelmingly from a Black/White dominated perspective. In K-12, we were taught about slavery, Jim Crow, Harlem Renaissance, MLK, Rosa Parks, Harriet Tubman, the Underground Railroad, etc. In other words, “Blacks this, Whites that, blah blah”. We learned some history about other PoC, but it wasn’t framed in terms of race relations vis a vis Whites like it was done for Blacks and was sort of “on the side”, like an afterthought. And this was at schools where most students of color were Asian!

    But why is that ? Because black people put in that work

    Even university professors make the same cringeworthy mistake of talking about race in Black/White terms. In an English class, the professor gave a reading assignment about race’s role in advertisement. You may guess which races were discussed and which weren’t. In a psychology class, the Black professor talked about race. All she had to say about Asians was that they were the Model Minority and were seen as smarter. I heard White students laughing. You may guess why. And in a social statistics class, a Hispanic professor only talked about Whte supremacy’s effect on Blacks in the South when she discussed race. Another psychology professor talked about race and every time, she only brings up Blacks, like they’re the “go to” minority for anything and everything about race. The fact that so many have this mindset of race as a Black/White thing and teach it at schools that are mostly non-Black minorities is insane. This all happened in California, a state where almost all people of color are third race!

    So what exactly do you want ?

    Recognition ? OK. Of what ? What have Asians done as a mass of people to fight white supremacy ? Not one or two activists. I’m talking as a group.

    I’m talking masses of Asians protesting as a group, like Blacks in Ferguson or Baltimore and numerous other cases. I’m talking about Asian people starting groups, giving talks, writing books, make films about challenging racism white supremacy

    In schools across the country, our national conversation on race has been warped into this false Black/White dichotomy that not just White and Black professors keep touting, but even other races have been programmed into eating up and regurgitating. So when I hear that Blacks bear the brunt of racism or anything along those lines, I wonder whether that really is the reality or if that is merely due to Asians, Natives, and Latinos being killed or driven out and then having their histories removed from the curriculum.

    BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR

    You really want Asians to be seen as less intelligent, more violent ? Is that what you want ? Or do you just want Asians to be in discussions of race without having to lift a finger ?

    It also makes me sick how people could say that the Model Minority stereotype can confer any kind of “privilege” when Asian American children have the highest rate of bullying in the country, well above all other races, because of the stereotype. Maybe if enough Asian kids get their faces bashed in, people will see how being seen as weak, nerdy pushovers doesn’t privilege you in any way.

    Bullying is not good. But in comparison to the thousands of black people hung and shot then it does not seem as bad and what did black people do in the face of this terrorism ?

    We put in that work.

    We campaigned marched, protested, put our lives on the line. I don’t know how many times I have to say this dude. But if you want change then you have to sacrifice, will some Asians die in the process ? Yes, but that’s the ticket to freedom

    Like


  512. @Solitaire,

    From their point of view, they often feel like African Americans will not listen to them unless they first admit to having many privileges and being less discriminated against.

    Do you think it would help any in these types of discussions if the word “privilege” was reserved for Euro-Americans and white privilege? Instead of saying, “As an African American, I acknowledge I have such-and-such privilege,” would it be easier to say something like “I acknowledge that such-and-such is a form of racism that your group deals with and my group is not likely to encounter.”

    Privilege seems like such a heavily weighted word. I’m not saying the word is the crux of the matter, but I wonder if that particular word sticks in the throat.

    I know that for myself as a woman, it is easier to admit to white privilege or heterosexual privilege than to gender-related privilege.

    Maybe it would be good if everyone took a breather and watched this MTV Decoded video about privilege.
    Why Does Privilege Make People So Angry? | Decoded | MTV News
    (https://youtu.be/qeYpvV3eRhY)

    Words like “privilege” and “racism” are things that everyone has and exercises. It is not limited to whites or just those perceived as being non-black. Asians enjoy privileges that blacks are less likely to enjoy. Blacks enjoy privileges that Asians are not going to enjoy as much either. Each of them will enjoy some privileges that even whites have problems taking advantage of. Everyone has privilege in one way or another, and it is not just limited to race. Able-bodied persons have privileges that disabled people do not. Cis-gendered persons have privileges that transgendered do not.

    If only we could get through this hurdle, then we can proceed to addressing real inequality in the society.

    Like


  513. Non whites have rights but white people have privileges. The problem is white supremacy interferes with the rights of POC so whites have privileges by default.

    Privilege: a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people. An advantage and a benifit.

    So when you say Blacks or Asians have privileges it means only within the context of white supremacy and ignores that these same rights are ones white people take for granted.

    “education is a right, not a privilege”

    So we have a public school system that doesn’t apply rights equally. We have a justice system that doesn’t apply rights equally. We have an economic system that doesn’t apply rights equally.

    Non whites have a right not to get profiled by the police but whites have the privilege to travel anywhere and only worry about getting pulled over if their speeding.

    Non whites have a right to travel and not get asked for their papers. Whites used to be waved across the boarder because they looked “American “.

    Non whites have a right to determine the children’s education and a say in the curriculum. But our white Federal family knows better.

    Non whites have a right to economic empowerment. But that can’t happen if loans and venture capital are not made available. And any successful Black community historically has been burnt to the ground. What whites do today is point to their success and suggest the problem is systemic within your community. If you just worked as hard as we do ….

    Non whites have a right to do whatever drugs they want and not expect to spend a draconian amount of time behind prison helping employ a prison gourd.

    Non whites have a right for a complete return of all civil rights lost when incarcerated. Upon release after their “payment” to society has been completed, their right to employment, voting, gun possession ect should be returned immediate. The current system creates a caste system where upon release they are marginalized in society and the parole system is designed to suck them back into prison. .

    Non whites have a right to vote without having to show two forms of ID. You think they ask white people for two forms of ID ?

    Non whites have the right to form their own political parties. It took 15 years for the Libertarian party to get represented on ballots within all 50 states. And their 95% white. So good luck with that.

    Non whites have a right for politicale representation free from white people interference. Instead they are tokens of diversity bought to support the very system that oppress the constituency.

    Non whites have a right to own their own bodies, minds and thoughts the same way that white people take their autonomy as a given.

    Non whites have enalianable rights that shouldk not subject to interpretation by a white centric Supreme Court. Magical words on old parchments created to consolidate and justify American Imperialism as well restrict the rights of others through arcane definitions of humane value are not to be repeated and seen for what they are.

    Non whites have a right to live their lives free from white people interference and to form their own communities that reflect their values and culture.

    The right to life and the pursuit of happiness free from interference that harms no one is universal and a part of the human soul. These are self evident rights that white supremacy attempts to make into privileges that they can control, regulate and take away.

    Liked by 2 people


  514. * Are not to be respected

    Like


  515. @ Jefe

    First of all, let me say that personally I’m in complete agreement with your statement:

    “Words like “privilege” and “racism” are things that everyone has and exercises.”

    That is the framework that I myself operate with.

    However, I do think Michael Jon Barker has a point when he says this:

    “So when you say Blacks or Asians have privileges it means only within the context of white supremacy and ignores that these same rights are ones white people take for granted.”

    I also noticed in the MTV video that whenever Franchesca Ramsey gave examples of how she was privileged, it was always within a context where she is clearly part of the majority (abled, heterosexual). Whereas the difficulty in this thread is that of discussing relative privilege among different groups of POC, all of whom are part of the minority.

    I threw out that suggestion not because I don’t believe everyone has privilege, but because I was wondering if it would help to make the discussion easier. I’m wondering if the same acknowledgments could be made without invoking the word privilege itself, so that the issues still get talked about but perhaps with less tension.

    I don’t know if it would help or not. It’s just a suggestion, and I would be interested in everyone’s opinion.

    Liked by 1 person


  516. @Kiwi

    “Assuming its national records are complete, the NUL’s national board held no discussions at all about the evacuation order or made any public or private statements about it. In fact, in September 1942 its staff conference passed a resolution expressing to the President its deep appreciation of steps taken toward the elimination of racial discrimination in the war effort which it defined as applying to all Americans regardless of race, religion or national origin.”

    NUL is not clearly defined.

    If NUL is the National Urban League, they had a very good reason to express appreciation to President Roosevelt in 1942. In 1941, A. Philip Randolph, president of the Sleeping Car Porters Union organized a massive march on Washington. They wanted to pressure FDR to open jobs in the war industries to Black workers.

    In response, Roosevelt issued Executive Order 8802 establishing the Fair Employment Practices Commission (FEPC) to investigate claims of racial discrimination and promote fair hiring policies. FDR did this to avert the German propaganda bonanza of thousands of Black folk marching for equal treatment in this bastion of liberty, America.

    Executive Order 8802 was not perfect, but it did have the effect of significant employment gains for African Americans in the war industries making ships, planes, and tanks.

    This was all a part of the Double V Campaign that Black people waged World War II. The Double V Campaign was spearheaded by Black newspapers and organizations to urge Black people to support the war effort abroad to complete victory, as well as, support a victory at home for justice and equality for Black citizens.

    That campaign and other actions by Black people had no bearing on the plight of the Japanese Americans during the war. Black people then, as now, faced a plethora of life threatening conditions in this country. Poverty, constant discrimination and media defamation which often led to mob violence, vigilantism and state violence (police).

    The level of networking present in our society today was pretty non-existent in the 1940s. There were few, if any, trans-ethnic coalitions. Every group fended for themselves against a hostile and shameless White population.

    Two exceptions were the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) and The National Council of Jewish Women (NCJW). Their public objections to the treatment of the Japanese American community were not sustained or coordinated. They had the courage to speak up when others were in blame and revenge mode.

    Other ethnic groups were so far away geographically that they may as well have been overseas to the bulk of the Black population located in the South and Northern cities. Most Chicanos were in the Southwest, Native Americans on far away reservations and most Asian Americans were concentrated on the West coast and Hawaii.

    Attempts to infer Black people’s lack of response to Japanese American internment during WWII as responsibility for that internment is a counterfeit argument. A people lacking power and the ability to protect their own lives are not responsible for the actions of a powerful majority.

    That was true then and it is true now.

    Liked by 3 people


  517. @michaeljonbarker

    “The right to life and the pursuit of happiness free from interference that harms no one is universal and a part of the human soul. These are self evident rights that white supremacy attempts to make into privileges that they can control, regulate and take away”.

    Good points.

    Like


  518. @Solitaire

    Perhaps the term “privilege” should be used. Direct words can be useful in discussing concepts, even contentious ones.

    Like


  519. Correction:

    This was all a part of the Double V Campaign that Black people waged during World War II.

    Like


  520. @ Afrofem

    “Attempts to infer Black people’s lack of response to Japanese American internment during WWII as responsibility for that internment is a counterfeit argument. A people lacking power and the ability to protect their own lives are not responsible for the actions of a powerful majority.

    That was true then and it is true now.”

    .

    As Wesley Snipes would say… Damn Skippy!!!!

    Thank you ma’am for showing that these (Kiwi/jefe) grievances against Black people are at best specious arguments! Just as the argument they maintained on the reparations thread: that any $$ payout to Black Amerikans would certainly cause a rife between Blacks and other PoC.

    Thanks to these two _____, Black/Asian relations here are moving backwards. At least we now know where we stand with these Asian ‘Killers of the Dream.’

    Liked by 1 person


  521. @mjb there was a real process of ‘south asian’ immigration into central nj during the 90’s and 00’s well i’m not in a great headspace right now but ‘asian’ ‘here’ seems to mean more like china and down south east in asia

    also i think me and john, my korean buddy in senior year i think we got high scores in the town 1400 on the sat he got 7 and 7.

    Like


  522. @ TeddyBearDaddy

    “Many of the lands that are now China and in South East Asia Kampuchea (Cambodia) Empire had taken slaves to build their huge temples. I should know because my family history can trace back to a faction of these slaves.”

    I don’t mean to pry, but I would be interested in hearing more about this aspect of your family history if it is something you’re comfortable with sharing.

    Like


  523. @ Solitaire

    what does the article say the Jewish response was like?

    It was just as bad, if not worse, than the Black response.

    @ Afrofem

    If NUL is the National Urban League, they had a very good reason to express appreciation to President Roosevelt in 1942.

    So as long as Black causes are addressed, it doesn’t matter if a massive injustice like the wholesale internment of an entire ethnicity occurs. Appreciation, not outrage, is the appropriate response. Wow.

    This was all a part of the Double V Campaign that Black people waged World War II. The Double V Campaign was spearheaded by Black newspapers and organizations to urge Black people to support the war effort abroad to complete victory, as well as, support a victory at home for justice and equality for Black citizens.

    The same Black newspapers that supported the war effort liberally used the racial slur “Jap” and applied racist characterizations of Japanese, even citing Japanese American racism against Blacks as if that somehow justified the internment. Black American support for the war effort, which Japanese American internment was seen as falling under, was used to argue for Black civil rights.

    Black people then, as now, faced a plethora of life threatening conditions in this country. Poverty, constant discrimination and media defamation which often led to mob violence, vigilantism and state violence (police).

    People like you keep pointing to this as an excuse to be silent when injustice occurs, but the book indicated that even the Black civil rights organizations (whose silence you’re excusing) disputed this view.

    The level of networking present in our society today was pretty non-existent in the 1940s. There were few, if any, trans-ethnic coalitions. Every group fended for themselves against a hostile and shameless White population.

    The book I linked to directly contradicts your statement and points to the high level of cooperation between Black and Jewish groups, even contrasting their mutual support of each other to their overall indifference to the plight of Japanese Americans.

    Two exceptions were the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) and The National Council of Jewish Women (NCJW).

    The book states that they did not explicitly condemn FDR’s internment order. The NAACP even agreed with the legality and constitutionality of the order. That is an extreme moral blindness.

    Other ethnic groups were so far away geographically that they may as well have been overseas to the bulk of the Black population located in the South and Northern cities. Most Chicanos were in the Southwest, Native Americans on far away reservations and most Asian Americans were concentrated on the West coast and Hawaii.

    That strengthens my point. As part of the war effort, Black Americans roundly and unequivocally condemned Nazi oppression and internment of Jews while largely remaining silent about American oppression and internment of Japanese. Whereas European Jews were an overseas population, Japanese Americans were not. Why the disparity?

    What I find most disturbing is how you, like others, are painting a grossly distorted view of history that not only erases critical aspects of the struggles of third-race people, but makes it more likely for similar injustices to recur in the future.

    Like


  524. @ Afrofem

    “Attempts to infer Black people’s lack of response to Japanese American internment during WWII as responsibility for that internment is a counterfeit argument. A people lacking power and the ability to protect their own lives are not responsible for the actions of a powerful majority.”

    Is Kiwi arguing responsibility? Or just a failure to be allies when this injustice occurred?

    Like


  525. @ TheHipHopRecords

    As Afrofem asked before, which Asians are you talking about? Under OkCupid’s definition, (and yours, since you refer to Princess Diana’s lover), it would seem “Asian” includes everybody from Saudis to Japanese. I doubt even you consider them the same “race”. A dating study done by Columbia found that Asian men get the lowest responses, lower than Black men. I suspect if you isolate “Asian” to include only East Asians, the female response becomes the most dismal.

    That’s because black people have been front and centre in the national conversation on race.

    Because they were the only ones who didn’t get killed off wholesale. Only survivors live to tell the tale.

    So Asians support black history month ?

    They do. At my school, I saw Asians supporting Black History Month but not Asian History Month. Why do you think that is?

    But why is that ? Because black people put in that work

    I doubt that’s even the main reason why. Most of the administrators making the decisions seem to be White liberals. It’s been established on this blog that White liberals have a penchant for reducing race relations to a Black/White binary while erasing the history and struggles of third-races.

    What have Asians done as a mass of people to fight white supremacy ? Not one or two activists. I’m talking as a group.

    There you go, applying racial stereotypes again. You see Blacks and Whites as individuals, but see Asians as a monolith.

    BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR

    Seriously? It’s wrong for Asians, Hispanics, and Natives to have a desire to learn about their own history?

    Bullying is not good. But in comparison

    In comparison, Asian kids are more likely to bullied because of their race than Black kids are. And this doesn’t take into account underreporting of stats on Asians because of the Model Minority stereotype. As far as I can tell, you probably feel Asian kids “deserve” to be bullied because to you, they’re all “robots” and “menaces”, anyway.

    Like


  526. @ Solitaire

    Is Kiwi arguing responsibility? Or just a failure to be allies when this injustice occurred?

    I noticed that wasn’t the first time Afrofem has played the shifting goalposts tactic on me and others. I merely pointed out to gro jo that Blacks are far from being the “vanguard in the struggle for human liberation”, as Japanese Americans learned during World War II.

    Like


  527. @Solitaire

    My friend stated that in the past she has advised people to use only an initial, but that really depends on the industry they are going into. She further stated that using just an initial is not wise because you do not want to hide anything from the company you want to hire you.

    Like


  528. @ Kiwi @Afrofem

    Kiwi wrote:
    “I noticed that wasn’t the first time Afrofem has played the shifting goalposts tactic on me and others.”

    I want to make it clear that I wasn’t accusing Afrofem of shifting goalposts. I simply am asking her to take a step back and look at Kiwi’s argument again.

    Kiwi, it could well be that there’s some comment of yours upthread that Afrofem felt either stated or implied responsibility. I would like to see what her response is.

    I have been interpreting your argument all along as being that African American organizations failed to act as allies when Japanese Americans had their civil rights and very liberty stripped away, but not as being that they were responsible for that injustice.

    Like


  529. @ Sharina

    Thank you for the info. I’ll pass it on.

    So basically, anyone who doesn’t have a name that sounds white middle-class boring is screwed.😦

    Liked by 1 person


  530. @Afrofem

    Here is the problem I have with kiwi’s claim of: Blacks wrote a letter to FDR condemning him for the internment.

    1. He is trying to say it was blacks who did this based on the actions of NUL.
    2. I have not found anywhere on the web that supports that idea. None the less I will research, but this article is interesting on how this black lawyer was a defender of the Japanese during the war.

    http://www.pri.org/stories/2016-02-23/despite-their-history-japanese-americans-and-african-americans-are-working

    @TheHipHoprecords

    When it is pointed out that Asians are not putting in work then the response becomes…”they were killed off”. But the truth of the matter is unity goes a long way regardless of how big the group is. I see the small population argument as an excuse for the lack of work that is being put in. Of the Asian activist working now, they can only get so much done on their own. They need other Asians to be involved and their involvement is lacking.

    Like


  531. @Solitaire

    Sad as it is that is the case. This is why I push for blacks to start creating there own companies and engage in fair hiring practices. People can not help the name they are given and it reduces opportunities in a society that punishes being different.

    I have a disorders and treatments research paper due, but I will try to respond to anyone I missed (MJB) later.

    Like


  532. @ Solitaire

    The biggest takeaway I got from the link I shared is that Blacks cared about Jews on the other side of the world but not about Asians who lived in the same country as them. There are always individual exceptions that one can cherry pick, but the vast difference in the overall responses speaks for itself.

    So when commenters talk about Asians clinging to Whiteness as if to imply that’s a specifically Asian phenomenon, that needs to be challenged. Blacks have done it and continue to do so today, just as much as other people of color.

    Like


  533. @ Kiwi

    “So when commenters talk about Asians clinging to Whiteness as if to imply that’s a specifically Asian phenomenon, that needs to be challenged. Blacks have done it and continue to do so today, just as much as other people of color.”

    So you’re not denying that Asians do and have done this?

    But you are saying that African Americans (and other racial minorities) do and have done this too?

    (“some not all” implied)

    Like


  534. When I look at a map of the world I see that Asia starts in the South Pacific Seas Goes north to the North Pole, proceeds west until you reach the Mediterranean Sea. It includes India and all of the Middle East Nations!

    A lot of different individuals, races, and ethnic groups are living in Asia! I imagine Black people are living in Asia and are called Asians!

    Why have most of the conversation just included Chinese?

    Like


  535. “I merely pointed out to gro jo that Blacks are far from being the “vanguard in the struggle for human liberation”, as Japanese Americans learned during World War II.”

    You are a joke. Elijah Muhammad was nearly lynched and sent to jail during WW II. Your response to that fact was that he was afraid to get killed, and anyway, he wasn’t respectable. Not only do you read mind 70 years in the past, you can even determine what could have happened!

    Did blacks put Japanese Americans in the internment camps? You make a big deal about some letter sent by NUL! The shocking thing is the fact that you haven’t been laughed out of court!

    I asked you to name one Chinese American who opposed the war as E. Muhammad did. When you can show me such paragon of ‘Asian’ solidarity, then I’ll take your nonsense seriously.

    Like


  536. @ Solitaire

    So you’re not denying that Asians do and have done this?

    Whatever for? There’s no advantage to denying it, so it’s bizarre when other races try to.

    I still have comment to you in moderation.

    @ gro jo

    Over 100,000 Black Americans fought or died fighting to save European Jews from their plight or to kill Japanese. How many fought or died to save Japanese Americans from their plight?

    —-

    Roger Wilkins: “And I don’t think that we kids in Harlem were much different. I don’t think that we somehow, because we were not white, we felt any affinity for the Japanese. On the contrary, I think we thought they were fiends just the way the white people thought they were fiends. We might have been black, but we sure as heck were Americans and we were involved with American culture.”

    http://americanradioworks.publicradio.org/features/daysofinfamy/print.html

    Like


  537. @Solitaire,

    So you’re not denying that Asians do and have done this?

    I know you are addressing that to Kiwi and I cannot speak for him at all. I cannot only talk about what I have observed.

    The reply of course is that Asians also often find themselves clinging to whiteness. It will be more common among those Asians who marry whites, or the others who have lost sight of the original purpose of “Model Minority” and have been fed the White Liberal narrative (until some of those individuals get their “wake up call” at one point in their lives). Even back during Jim Crow, we saw Asians attempt to cling to whiteness just in order to get access to things such as white schools.

    But, I have also witnessed an inordinate amount of blacks clinging to whiteness at the expense of Asians, Native Americans and Latinos. I saw it since my childhood during the Vietnam War era, and it continues today as we saw with Chris Rock (but of course, we can find many instances going back to the 19th century). I saw it during the American Indian movement in the 1970s and today with the recognition of Native American tribes or appropriation of Native American culture and symbols. You see it manifest in other ways, eg, as the gatekeepers of diversity programs and training and as seizing control over the national narrative on race. The thing most disheartening thing is how many have actually internalized white supremacy and white colonization of their mind.

    Of course I saw Native Americans cling to whiteness at the expense of others too. Walter Plecker’s intent to turn all Natives into colored during Jim Crow caused many of the tribes to ban their members from marrying blacks. Some tribes made direct attempts to expel black members from their tribes.

    There is no group of POC who is innocent of clinging to whiteness in order to gain more “privilege” (as it were). In order for the POC to work together, we have to recognize and acknowledge that that has been happening all along.

    We have been taught a few prominent examples of how Asians and Native Americans and Latinos have resisted white supremacy and embraced the black power movement and joined the cause for black civil rights and anti-racism. Maybe we should share the prominent examples of where blacks have resisted whiteness and joined the cause for Asians, Natives and Latinos.

    If only one could think of such examples. The closest thing on this blog was David Fagen, and that was for the cause of Asians still in Asia.
    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/10/04/david-fagen/

    Like


  538. @ alia

    Ok. Please note that it has been established that neither Kiwi nor Jefe deny that Asians have and do cling to Whiteness. It is established that they both have just said and acknowledged above that this has and does occur within the Asian American community.

    Liked by 1 person


  539. @ Jefe

    Last winter I read a book called We Are Still Here: A Photographic History of the American Indian Movement by Dick Bancroft and Laura Waterman Wittstock.

    I don’t have it at hand, so I’m going from memory. But a lot of the book was about a cross-country march that happened in the 1970s. Native Americans started walking in California and went all the way to DC on foot, with many joining along the way as they passed near the larger reservations and cities. If I remember correctly, at one point when they were still pretty far out west, they were getting infiltrated by white hippies and other hanger-ons who were causing trouble. Dennis Banks reached out to the black community, I think the NAACP and possibly the Black Panthers. At any rate, he networked with them to figure out how to deal with the hippies and also arranged for the group to sleep at black churches along the way. So this could be seen as one example. There may be other instances of Black Power groups and AIM working together in the 1970s.

    By the way, this is also a good example of a civil rights march that never gets taught. I think it was called The Broken Treaties March. They were continually harrassed along the walk and then again when they set up camp in DC.

    Like


  540. @ Jefe

    I have a long comment which is in moderation (I hope; I hate when that happens because I always think the internet gremlins ate it).

    The march which I talk about in that post is The Trail of Broken Treaties.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Broken_Treaties

    Like


  541. @ Kiwi

    Comment deleted for use of racial slur.

    Like


  542. @ Abagond

    Fair enough. But it needs to be made clear that Blacks, like all minorities, partake in the oppression of other races, including calling the Japanese racial slurs.

    Like


  543. I was wrong about the whole march taking place on foot. I think, though, there was some amount of walking each day and then the people on foot would join up with the rest of the caravan to drive part of it.

    Like


  544. @Solitaire

    So this could be seen as one example.

    Thanks for reminding us of this. The “Trail of Broken Treaties” would be an excellent subject for a post on this blog. Maybe some of what you remembered would also be found in Vine Deloria Jr’s book on the subject.

    We need more examples of how people might work together to fight the injustices caused by America’s white supremacy doctrine, if anything, just to diffuse this Oppression Olympics game. But also as a model on how people might work together.

    First of all, we have to kill the Model Minority stereotype, probably the most divisive doctrine to infiltrate the national narrative on race relations in our generation.

    Like


  545. “@ gro jo

    Over 100,000 Black Americans fought or died fighting to save European Jews from their plight or to kill Japanese. How many fought or died to save Japanese Americans from their plight?”

    It’s news to me that anybody died fighting to save European Jews! They died fighting the enemies of their government as the Buffalo soldiers did before them. All soldiers from all nations die for the same reason. You’ve been watching too many war propaganda films. You can’t think of a single Chinese American who went to jail in solidarity with his ‘Asian brothers’ can you? I’m not surprised. Your taunts are stupid, and signs of your desperation. Give it a rest.

    Liked by 1 person


  546. @ gro jo

    It’s news to me that anybody died fighting to save European Jews!

    Right, Black Americans were completely ignorant of and silent about Nazi oppression of Jews, which they compared to their own oppression.

    /end sarcasm

    The fact remains that Blacks fought and died in large numbers to support White people’s causes but all you can point to is a loon like Elijah Muhammad as an example of Black American support for Asian Americans. The truth hurts.

    Like


  547. My dear dopey Kiwi, Blacks died in that war for the same reason soldiers died in all war. Being raised on a steady diet of political bs, you are free to believe what you want.
    As for the “loon”, I’d like you to demonstrate the same courage he did. You are forever whining about Obama killing Arabs, well, do something about it that can get you in trouble with the authorities. You have the example of the “loon”, Muhammad Ali, the Berrigans and their friends, as well as a slew of other brave “loons” who stood up for what they believed in. I suspect you don’t have the gonadal fortitude to practice what you preach. I could be wrong.

    Liked by 1 person


  548. @ gro jo

    Did you read my book link? Black Americans were more indignant and active about the plight of European Jews than they were about the plight of their own countrymen, Japanese Americans. That is a point you can’t disprove because you know it’s true.

    You are forever whining about Obama killing Arabs

    Yep. A Black man killing people of other races. What has Black America done about that other than elect him to office twice?

    Like


  549. “Did you read my book link? ”

    Why would I waste time on that? Which part of you’re a joke was unclear to you? You are here to insult people. I’m here to insult you. Got it?

    “Yep. A Black man killing people of other races. What has Black America done about that other than elect him to office twice?”

    Yep, just as I thought, an empty drum making a din. You want Black people to do your job for you? I thought your kind were hardworking, another model minority myth debunked.

    Like


  550. @ gro jo

    Why would I waste time on that?
    I’m here to insult you.

    Well, at least you have your priorities straight.

    Like


  551. As usual, we understand each other, no need for pretense.

    Like


  552. Precisely my point. “vanguard in the struggle for human liberation” has pretense written all over it.

    Like


  553. Kiwi:

    I realize there is nothing I can do to stop you from insulting me in my absence. Have fun with that. I’ve had some life changes and am very busy taking care of my family these days. However, I do check in every once in a while.

    As for this post, there are quite a number of race conscious whites like myself who have lived in East Asia and/or have Asian spouses. Almost universally, there is a ton of respect for the heights of Asian cultures. I personally am pretty content to live among Asians. However, I think all ethnic groups have some natural sense of self-preservation and affinity. I don’t want to see whites lose their will to live and die out. I am particularly sad to see Europe, the ancestral homeland, falling victim to non-European immigrants who will replace the native populations in a couple generations. For now, that’s not something any Asian or African country has to worry about.

    Kiwi, the observation about your aunt is interesting. I think in SoCal a majority of Asians i see around are recent immigrants (probably similar in NorCal). They tend to cluster in groups of their own and speak their own language. Of course, if you can speak that language, they are generally welcoming (for me at least). I think the language/cultural thing may be the reason your aunt had the experience she did. I don’t think white people overall feel more threatened by Asians than NAMs.

    I’m hopeful in seeing more and more whites become race conscious these days. It’s inevitable as we move towards minority status everywhere in the world. I hope people will be able to see that charges of “racism” are now most frequently used to shut people up. Just like racial epithets. If someone is using racial epithets, ok, we can say that is “racist”. However, if someone makes a statement, let’s first ask ourselves is it true or not before yelling “racist”. If a statement is true, then it can’t be racist, unless we accept that the truth is racist.

    I’ve given previous summaries of my take on things, but I want to leave one for any new people here:

    The West is going through an existential crisis. 50 years ago, the US was 90% white. In another 50 years, given current trends, it will be closer to 1/3 white (of course, the trend will continue unless some action is taken). Europe is also facing replacement of most of the native populations.

    Meanwhile, the population of Africa continues to explode. The UN estimates keep getting raised. It is now set to quadruple and be over 4 billion by the end of the 2100. It could be 8 billion out of a global population of around 12 billion by 2150. Those folks won’t stay in Africa if they don’t have to.

    Idiocracy is coming. The intelligent are having fewer and fewer kids, while they enable the less intelligent to breed with abandon. This is a recipe for replacement. However, getting rid of Whites and East Asians (whose birth rates are far below replacement) won’t lead to more equality. To the contrary, the rich will get richer (2 parents leave a good inheritance to 1 kid), while the poor will get poorer (a single parent gives a pittance to 5 kids).

    The US of the future will become more and more unequal and divided. Whites and East Asians will continue to be the most successful. IQ, SAT and all similar tests consistently show a huge gap in performance, with consequences for results later in life. Look at Brazil or any South American country. This is where we are heading. More private schools (or de facto segregation by zip code), more gated communities, more private security, more servants and less community trust and cohesion.

    Ironically, the multiculturalism abagond supports on this blog is going to make things much worse for his progeny. Hispanics and Asians have no sympathy for blacks. Blacks should wake up to this. The democratic party isn’t doing them any favors. (Thousands more blacks have been killed nationally since black lives matter protestors convinced cops to not police actively. The numbers don’t lie.) They have the most to gain from protecting our borders like all wealthy non-Western countries do.

    Like


  554. Re: Abagond

    Brace for impact.

    Like


  555. “Ironically, the multiculturalism abagond supports on this blog is going to make things much worse for his progeny. Hispanics and Asians have no sympathy for blacks. Blacks should wake up to this. The democratic party isn’t doing them any favors.”

    Textbook example of the white racist tactic of “divide and conquer.”

    White racist spends majority of post expressing fears that white Americans and white Europeans are going to be overrun and outbred by non-whites, then attempts to foment divisions among non-whites to reduce their ability to challenge white supremacy.

    Like


  556. biff said:

    I don’t think white people overall feel more threatened by Asians than NAMs.

    Regardless of whether that’s true, the fact remains that Whites still feel threatened by Asians. During the 80s, my father was the first Asian where he worked and when he became a manager due to being more qualified, two White men who would have ended up working under him resigned in protest. He recalled other experiences where White men refused to shake his hand. After all, Asians were (and still are) seen as untrustworthy. These people and their families left California a long time ago as part of an ongoing White exodus driven by Asian and Latino immigration.

    I would argue that Asian “success” is often seen as a reason for Whites fearing, hating, and wanting to cut Asians down. I’ve heard plenty enough complaints from Whites about Asians taking “their” spots in schools. The problem is that Whites can’t stand being beaten at their own game, as the Jews learned the hard way. If the IQ numbers are true, it only proves that White racism is hypocritical and not based on facts. It’s based on feelings of White superiority over all races, including Asians.

    Like


  557. Gro Jo wondered if their were any Chinese Americans who opposed Japenese internment. In googling around I found none and instead found some evidence that Chinese Americans ectually benefited economicly from Japanese internment. Like white farmers some Chinese took over some Japanese business and the Chinese helped racialize the Japanese. Their loyalty to whites resulted in the repeal of the Chinese Exclusion act in 1943 even though the Japanese internment began in 1942. Part of this was that the Chinese and American governments were Allied during WW2.

    Kiwi seems bothered that Black Americans didn’t protest enough and therefore are morally deficient. But those same Black Americans didn’t benifit economicly from Japanese internment in the same way that whites and some Chinese did.

    The American government as well as those whites and Chinese who gained financially from the Japanese internment are those who are morally deficient.

    I am also skeptical that Blacks fought in WW2 for the same reasons that their white counter parts did. Were Blacks fighting America’s enemies so that Jim Crow could continue to be the law of the land in the U.S. ?

    Like


  558. Abagond wrote the above piece for people like Biff. People who believe in Asain superiority nonsense.

    It doesn’t bother me that whites are becoming a minority. Dropping birth rates, early death ect points to the Western Empire beginning to shrink in dominance. I’m more concerned that humanity will survive as opposed to a specific race.

    Like


  559. “Kiwi seems bothered that Black Americans didn’t protest enough and therefore are morally deficient. But those same Black Americans didn’t benifit economicly from Japanese internment in the same way that whites and some Chinese did.”

    @ MJB

    Kiwi seems … like a lot of things, but I’ll forego that for a nano-second!

    Given his consistent misbehavior, Colonel Disingenuous won’t let something as mundane as the TRUTH stop him from coming up with new distortions, twists, goal-post shifting, red herrings, strawmen and outright lies. Because that what (patently false complainers/) LIARS do!

    He’s becoming more entertaining than Mirkwood ever was! 🙂

    I’m liking this comic relief. Now if only he would use his super (liar) powers to find an Asian female …. who might tolerate the incessant telling of lies!

    Like


  560. Kiwi said,

    ” I would argue that Asian “success” is often seen as a reason for Whites fearing, hating, and wanting to cut Asians down.”

    That’s true. But their are plenty of other whites who have benefited financially from Asain American business as well white owned businesses and corporations that have generated wealth because of “free trade” coming from Asain countries. It works both directions.

    Like


  561. @MJB,

    Whereas part of your argument may be true, it is also a rehash of the oppression olympics trope.

    Japanese immigrants and Japanese Americans “benefited” from the Chinese Exclusion act and the Chinese American genocide. They were the ones that largely filled in the gaps left open by the Chinese who disappeared in the late 1800s and early 1900s.

    The main impetus for the repeal of the Chinese Exclusion act was because China was an ally with the USA govt during World War II, as you mentioned.

    Admittedly, some Chinese Americans did seize economic opportunities left open by the disappearance of Japanese Americans removed for internment during WWII. A big reminder of this today is how Chinese Americans control the fortune cookie business and made it associated with Chinese American culture, even though it was originally imported from Japan. However, it would be disingenuous to pin the internment on them. Besides, Japanese Americans outnumbered Chinese Americans at that time by at least 2 to 1. Part of their slack was made up by others as well, such as Filipino and Mexican Americans, and especially as you mentioned, by whites.

    Jews used to operate businesses in black communities until at least the 1970s. Most of that economy was picked up by Koreans, South Asians, Arabs, etc. Do we attribute the abandonment of Jews from black neighborhoods on the groups that replaced them? Was either side “morally deficient”?

    Like


  562. Jefe wrote:

    “Jews used to operate businesses in black communities until at least the 1970s. Most of that economy was picked up by Koreans, South Asians, Arabs, etc. Do we attribute the abandonment of Jews from black neighborhoods on the groups that replaced them? Was either side “morally deficient”?”

    My question to you is why did you refrain from making a similar argument to counter Kiwi’s nonsense about Blacks being somehow responsible for Japanese internment?

    Like


  563. ” on Sun 22 May 2016 at 08:49:32
    Kiwi

    Precisely my point. “vanguard in the struggle for human liberation” has pretense written all over it.”

    Your point is that you want some of that affirmative action money from shrinking university budgets, so you play the “Asian” victim, oppressed by all other races.

    Liked by 1 person


  564. @grojo,

    I am under no obligation to respond to anyone’s particular comment whether yours or Kiwi’s. I may agree or disagree with any argument you or he makes, and still I may or may not have any comment about it.

    Kiwi’s nonsense about Blacks being somehow responsible for Japanese internment

    Well, one possible reason could be that Kiwi never made that argument, as Solitaire pointed out here:

    (https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/the-asian-supremacy-argument/#comment-316121)

    Like



  565. Kiwi @ You mean like when a Black civil rights organization wrote FDR a congratulations letter after the Japanese American internment.

    Afrofem @
    “Attempts to infer Black people’s lack of response to Japanese American internment during WWII as responsibility for that internment is a counterfeit argument.

    Solitaire @ Is Kiwi arguing responsibility? Or just a failure to be allies when this injustice occurred?

    Linda says,

    Solitaire’s questions are very valid…. Kiwi, what is the point of your argument?

    you seem to be slinging out a lot of accusations against black Americans of the 1940s, and trying hard to make something stick to the wall.

    but you seem to be making your arguments based on only 1 source, “Black and Jewish Responses to Japanese Internment” by Cheryl Lynn Greenberg

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/27500003?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

    a source that only you can see because only 1 link was provided and it’s just an abstract — which doesn’t make reference to anything you have said.

    so your arguments at this moment, don’t seem to make sense.

    it would be nice if you were able to cut and paste the EXACT text that states and backs up your arguments; or at least, provide a different link, with a different author, to support this theory.

    also, what is the significance of what supposedly occurred during WW2 (concerning black Americans supposedly not supporting the Japanese) and black Americans and Asians of today?

    I don’t see the connection or the point you are trying to make.

    Like


  566. Kiwi,

    I’m trying real hard to remain unbiased and see your argument that “black Americans were supportive of the Japanese getting put in Internment Camps.”

    but it’s difficult because the argument you are promoting is based off of 1 author, Cheryl Greenberg, who seems to be pulling her conclusions from almost no evidence at all.

    Using the book you provided, I only found one other article that touched on what you originally said

    But it is a blog that discusses Greenbergs book, and the blog writer basically said the same thing you did (almost word for word):

    http://amst103-2012.blogspot.com/2012/04/black-and-jewish-responses-to-japanese.html

    Thursday, April 19, 2012

    “Thus, the idea of solidarity between minority groups certainly existed when Executive Order 9066 came out. Yet neither blacks nor Jews protested in any significant way the internment of the Japanese. Only one black organization, the NAACP, and one Jewish organization, the NCJW, raised any concerns at all.

    The internal minutes of most groups show that the Executive Order wasn’t even discussed. Greenberg concludes that the silence of blacks and Jews during this time resulted from their own attempts to show themselves as loyal and supportive of the war effort, their varying reasons for supporting WWII in the first place, convert racism, and an inability to see the extensiveness of the racism of the internment.”

    Cheryl Greenberg stated that “The internal minutes of most groups shows that Japanese Internment was not discuss” —So what? this is not proof that black people, as a whole group, did not care or object to Japanese Internment.

    Other than Cheryl Greenberg, I can’t find anyone else who has come to the same conclusion that black Americans supported Japanese Internment.

    I personally don’t like when people make conclusions based off of what 1 Jamaican person said or did, then try to apply it to me, as something I believe. Buju Banton sings about killing gay people… he doesn’t represent the beliefs of me or my family, just because we are all Jamaicans.

    A few people can’t speak for a whole Entire group – there is no Borg in real life.

    So I don’t understand Why this theory by Cheryl Greenberg should be used or applied to represent the beliefs or thoughts of black Americans.

    Greenberg’s conclusion is not based on objective polling of the various populations of black Americans across the USA.

    Like


  567. Jefe, don’t make me laugh. Kiwi holds Blacks responsible for Japanese internment, Obama’s war machine, Asians not getting their fair share of the oppressed minority pie, etc. You are free to give him a pass, but spare me the lie that he isn’t making inflammatory racial arguments.
    Confronted with evidence giving the lie to his claims, he gets on his high horse because the people indicated weren’t of high enough social stature for him.

    Like


  568. based on this article, it states that black media in California and various individuals in the general public, did what they could to support the Japanese-Americans.

    http://www.pri.org/stories/2016-02-23/despite-their-history-japanese-americans-and-african-americans-are-working


    “Hugh McBeth, a Los Angeles-based Black attorney and the leader of California’s Race Relations Commission, was an outspoken defender of Japanese Americans during the war.

    A November 1943 article in the progressive Black newspaper, the California Eagle, called the “persecution of the Japanese-American minority … one of the disgraceful aspects of the nation‘s conduct of the People‘s War.”

    As noted in Scott Kurashige’s history of the era, columnist Rev. Hamilton T. Boswell consistently called for cooperation between communities of color and condemned the incarceration of Japanese Americans as “the greatest disgrace of Democracy since slavery.”

    In a showing of support, the newspaper discontinued use of the racial slur “Jap,” even though mainstream news outlets would continue using it for years to come.”

    So despite what Cheryl Greenberg claims, it seems that there is documented proof that amongst regular folks in the US population, some black Americans did object to Japanese Interment, and vocalized their objections.

    Like


  569. Blacks have been the vanguard of the struggle for human liberation in the modern world since 1791 when they rose up and said enough. Fact, not opinion.

    Liked by 1 person


  570. @ Jefe

    I’m not making an Oppression Olympic argument.

    Note how I worded my statement. I’m pointing out where the moral deficiency lies. First in the actions of the U.S. government (white supremacy by default) as well as in the direct actions of individuals, both white and Chinese,that played a part in the theft of property of other American citizens.

    The U.S. government unconstitutionally detained American citizens against their will under the precept that they were “spys”. That is immoral.

    Secondly the theft of the property of American citizens by other American citizens is immoral.

    The Chinese were at war with Japan and driving out an army from your country is a valid use of force. What isn’t valid is the theft of property within the U.S. of Japanese Americans by both whites and Chinese Americans because of war.

    This is a quote from an online article called “Chinese Americans in San Francisco during World War II” by Yifan Huang, 2015.; For some reason the site won’t let me post a link but its worth reading.

    “For much of the time that the Chinese have been in America, they have faced discrimination and animosity. However, World War II changed much of that. When Japan became the U.S.’s enemy after Pearl Harbor, the Chinese in America found themselves in a position of opportunity to expand their economic and social influence. They distinguished themselves from the Japanese as much as possible, accepting and sometimes contributing to the racialization of the Japanese. After Japanese internment, Chinese merchants took over formerly Japanese-owned businesses. Furthermore, white perceptions of Chinese Americans changed due to the alliance between the U.S. and China, leading to the repeal of the Chinese Exclusion Acts in 1943.”

    This paragraph shows the race realism of the 40’s.

    “The December 1941 issue of Life magazine had a feature titled, “How to Tell Japanese from the Chinese,” where they characterized the Chinese as having a “parchment yellow complexion” as opposed to the Japanese’s “earthy yellow complexion” (81). According to them, the Chinese were tall and slender, while the Japanese were short and squat (82).”

    An article called “Confiscations from Japanese Americans during WW2” goes into great detail how white farmers went about stealing Japanese American wealth.

    “Internment was publicized as a national security measure responding to a military threat. Contemporary observers, however, wondered if internment was actually directed against an economic threat that some Americans saw in fellow Americans of Japanese descent. One half of employed Japanese-Americans on the West Coast were in agriculture. They were the largest force in California’s fruit and vegetable markets; agricultural experts expected thirty-five percent of California’s 1942 truck crops to come from Japanese-Americans. Japanese-American farms in 1940 were worth $72 million plus $6 million in equipment. Per acre their farms were worth $279.96, in contrast to the average value of $37.94 for all California farms.”

    In today’s dollars that value comes to over a billion dollars, $1,300,000,000.

    http://www.fear.org/RMillerJ-A.html

    Like


  571. Michael Jon Barker @ Jefe

    “I’m pointing out where the moral deficiency lies. First in the actions of the U.S. government (white supremacy by default) as well as in the direct actions of individuals, both white and Chinese,that played a part in the theft of property of other American citizens. After Japanese internment, Chinese merchants took over formerly Japanese-owned businesses.”

    Linda says

    MJB, does this really prove deliberate theft on behalf of Chinese Americans.

    Because if we go by the this statement as valid proof, then it could be said that black Americans also committed theft against the Japanese-Americans

    Based on the article I mentioned above, black Americans moved into Little Tokyo, once the Japanese were removed:

    http://www.pri.org/stories/2016-02-23/despite-their-history-japanese-americans-and-african-americans-are-working


    “About 80,000 people — most of them African American — took up residence in an area that had been home to approximately 30,000 Japanese Americans before the war. Little Tokyo was rechristened Bronzeville and Black-owned businesses replaced shuttered Japanese Americans establishments. The deserted Kawafuku restaurant reopened as Shepp’s Playhouse, one of many night clubs that hosted the likes of Coleman Hawkins, T-Bone Walker and Herb Jeffries from the Duke Ellington band.”

    I could say the same thing about black Americans stealing from the Japanese-Americans that you are trying to say about Chinese-Americans of that time period.

    but I won’t… because I recognize that back then… segregation and Jim Crow was in control and non-White people were steered in the direction that the white supremacist American society and government wanted them to go… whether they liked it or not


    “While Black laborers were welcomed in the [Los Angeles] city‘s defense industries, the lives and families they brought with them were not. Restrictive housing covenants barred people of color from living in white neighborhoods, so the newly vacated Japanese American neighborhood known as Little Tokyo was one of the few places that had space available to arriving African Americans.

    After the war, Japanese Americans who returned to Los Angeles rightfully wanted to reclaim their homes and businesses, but they found a profoundly different community than the one they‘d left behind. With their neighborhood brimming with new residents, many ended up crowded into temporary housing units.

    The California Eagle (black owned newspaper) argued that Japanese Americans should be permitted to reclaim their former homes and encouraged its readers to stand in solidarity with those returning from incarceration.”

    I’m sure there are also instances where the Chinese-Americans and other Asian groups were supportive of Japanese Americans.

    As I asked Kiwi, I seem to have missed the point of why this particular time period is being brought up to prove that people of colour did not support each other?

    an argument which is a lie, because they very much did back then

    Like


  572. Linda said,

    “Because if we go by the this statement as valid proof, then it could be said that black Americans also committed theft against the Japanese-Americans”

    If that is the case then those individuals who participated in that theft are morally deficient as well.

    Thanks for posting that part of history.

    What you can’t do is collective all Blacks or Chinese for the actions of some within their communities.

    Like


  573. MJB @

    If that is the case then those individuals who participated in that theft are morally deficient as well.

    Linda says: no, not really… black, Chinese or other Asian people weren’t running sh’t back then in the USA… a vacuum was created by the white government, and the vacuum was filled by the mandate of the white government.

    MJB @

    What you can’t do is collective all Blacks or Chinese for the actions of some within their communities.

    Linda says: that is my Exact point

    Liked by 1 person


  574. @ Linda

    If you go back and actually read my comments, the point of my posts on Black/Japanese American relations was quite clear and your questions were already answered.

    Like


  575. @Linda

    Thank you for your input. I appreciate that you were able to dig up items that eluded me.

    Kiwi’s initial allegation of Black complicity in the internment of Japanese Americans occured in the Peter Liang thread. I posted a statement from a coalition of Asian American groups who denounced the disposition of the Liang case.
    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/02/20/peter-liang/#comment-313659

    Later in the thread (comment-313777), Kiwi stated, “Generally speaking, Black Americans were indifferent, if not complicit with the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II. A lot of this had to do with Blacks supporting the war effort in order to prove their loyalty to White people their country, which would later turn out to be a useful bargaining chip to advocate their own civil rights.”

    In my own research, I also found the the summary of Greenberg’s book and the blogspot post that quoted Greenberg as a sole source. My conclusion (comment-313818), then and now is the same:

    “The allegation that, “Black Americans were indifferent, if not complicit with the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II” is wholly false.”

    ❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖

    I have noticed a pattern where if Kiwi is losing an argument, he will toss out one fallacy after another to keep his opponents off balance and wasting their time and energy refuting something he can’t prove.

    I have fallen for this ruse repeatedly, as have other commenters. Perhaps a better approach to Kiwi’s fallacies is to put the burden of proof on him. If he says X,Y and Z are true, he should provide quotes or links to prove his assertions.

    Most of us don’t currently do this because we come to the comment section of this blog to share information, learn, network and de-stress from the racist micro-agressions of the day. (Sometimes macro-agressions of a lifetime.)

    Perhaps Kiwi’s purposes are different. I don’t know and I don’t care. All I do know is that if Kiwi makes inflammatory statements, he should be ready to back them up completely —— as in he does the work, not his fellow commenters.

    Liked by 2 people


  576. Linda says,

    “does this really prove deliberate theft on behalf of Chinese Americans.”

    That’s really comes down to personal intent as opposed to an opportunity that “fell into your lap” so to speak.

    The article I am referring to describes the connection Chinese Americans had with mainland China. It could be that because of the war going on between Japan and China, the Chinese here felt the taking over of Japanese assests as part of their war effort and justified because of the war.

    As far as American Blacks their is no argument about
    the effects of Jim Crow and taking advantage of the empty housing in Little Tokyo seems less like theft.

    Like


  577. @ Afrofem

    I provided my scholarly source. It’s not like I ripped it off of some random page from YahooAnswers or something. If you ask for a source and then proceed to call sharing information from the link “tossing out one fallacy after another”, then I guess I can’t really help you.

    As for some people being unable to read the link, I don’t know what to say. I was hoping for others to read it and discuss and I am unable to copy and paste it due to its format. It’s a damn shame is all I can say.

    Like


  578. Afrofem wrote:

    “as in he does the work, not his fellow commenters.”

    Which Kiwi did not do here:

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/the-asian-supremacy-argument/#comment-316256

    “If you go back and actually read my comments, the point of my posts on Black/Japanese American relations was quite clear and your questions were already answered.”

    —————-

    @ Kiwi

    This thread is very long and even if someone does go back through and reread carefully, there’s been so much arguing over details that it’s easy to get bogged down.

    In light of that, could you please provide a succinct answer to the question Linda asked?

    Like


  579. @ MJB

    At this point, isn’t it really splitting hairs? What I think the whole thing boils down to is: While some people raised objections to the internment of Japanese Americans, the nation mostly went along with it without question or reflection. The only real place that we might be able to claim there was effective resistance was in Hawaii, where officials refused to intern the entire Japanese American population (although there were specific individuals arrested and detained).

    Like