The Asian Supremacy argument, as I call it, says that Asians are naturally better than White people and everyone else: Asians have higher IQs, lower crime rates, lower illegitimacy rates, lower divorce rates, they work harder, and so on. Studies show that men of all races think Asian women are the most beautiful. On top of that, Asians make up 61% of the world – the demographic majority.
Therefore:
- Norms: Asians should be the norm against which everyone else is judged. We should all want to be like Asians and copy them.
- IQ tests: Asians should design the IQ tests by which the world is measured.
- Regime change: Asian governments should overthrow the governments of non-Asian countries for their own good, carpet-bombing them or sending in drones if necessary. Asians know best.
- Media: We should get all of our ideas about other races and the world in general from Asian media.
- World history and world news should be mainly Asian history and Asian news. Others need appear only as tokens or contributors to Asian well-being.
- Hollywood films, which are seen worldwide, should have mostly Asian heroes. They should be Asian even in cases where the original character was non-Asian, because that is what sells! For the same reason, they should make feel-good Asian Saviour films where a nice Asian person saves helpless White people. It is not racist, it is just business.
- Fashion models should be mainly Asian.
- Meritocracy: Asian Americans should hold most of the top positions in US society: business, banking, government, media, education, etc. It will be better for everyone. Whites who do not like it can go back to Europe.
- The Asian quota at top US universities should end, though maybe some non-Asians can be admitted for the sake of “diversity” so that Asian students can be more well-rounded.
- Denigration: Non-Asian people should be looked down on, feared, laughed at, stereotyped, if not hated, shot, locked up or wiped out.
- Murder and genocide: If Asians should kill or wipe out Whites, it is not a big deal: Whites kill each other all the time. Look at Hitler and Stalin and all those creepy White American serial killers!
Etc.
Almost no White person seriously makes this sort of argument – even though it follows from the “facts” and style of reasoning that White racists themselves use all the time. That is because deep down racism is not about fact but feeling.
If anti-Black racism came from IQ tests or crime statistics or affirmative action or Black pathologies or ill-mannered Black people, Whites would be racist against themselves! Because all those arguments can be used against them too.
Whites will admit to some of the “facts” about “Asians” (it helps to hide their anti-Black racism from themselves), but rarely if ever will they draw conclusions like those above. That would defeat the whole purpose of racism: feeling good about being White in a White supremacist world.
– Abagond, 2016.
See also:
- “Take Japan, for instance…”
- Asian Atrocity argument
- The term “Asian”
- The Asian quota
- The Model Minority stereotype
- Why do Whites demonize Blacks?
529
Studies show that men of all races find Asian women the ‘most beautiful’? Hardly, one cannot state something without several resources to back it up. Actually, the men in my family find Black women the most beautiful…and I have dated White, Black & Hispanic men who did not like Asian women. You cannot go by most studies because there is always a flaw in them somewhere. Peace.
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Personally, I think it’s quite difficult to point towards any group of people and honestly say: this group or that group is supreme to all other groups. Reason being, no group of people’s history run parallel to another group or race of people. Currently, the variables are too vast, too shifting or too inconsistent to give us the answer regarding who is supreme.
For example, there are some groups who’ve never experienced being shuffled from vessel to vessel (slavery) or held in a land not of your own specifically for hard bondage for over a thousand years.
Good post Abagond!
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Interesting post and point. Both of my kids have been high performers in math and science, which has put them in a school setting where a substantial percentage of their classmates have been Asian, way higher percentage than the overall population of our area. We see the same demographic shift at the final rounds of the big regional classical piano competitions. What I have seen is that Asian kids excel in these areas because of relentless ass-kicking by their parents, the so-called “Tiger Mom” phenomenon.
Incidentally, continental African parents do the same thing. The couple of times in recent years we have seen in the news a report of a high school student admitted to all 8 Ivies, it has generally been the kid of continental African parents. You generally don’t see this broken out in graphs like the one in this post because the sample size is statistically small. At a personal level, I had a buddy from Ghana who, about 25 years ago, finished his PhD in nuclear physics. His son (whose outdooring ceremony I attended) graduated from Stanford a couple of years ago.
I read somewhere once that African American women married to Caucasian men tend to also be Tiger Moms. If you ask my kids, they would likely agree.
Another anecdote. My daughter related the following about something that occurred in the group of Asian-American students that she studies and socializes with. One of the boys became the boyfriend of one of the girls. Keep in mind these two are both in AP everything, near the top of their class in everything, etc. When the boy’s mother heard about it through the grapevine, she called her son to the carpet: “No dating in high school. Period.” Sort of the Desi version of Mickey growling at Rocky: “Women weaken legs!”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0U8_LX7ccC4)
Amy Chua, author of the famous “Tiger Mom” book and self-described Tiger Mom, argues that this alone is an element of a superior culture. This kind of parenting creates opportunities for admission to elite universities and professional track educations like engineering or med school.
However, we all know that the world is at least as much about who you know as what you know. On average it is more likely that a white kid will grow up with parental connections in high places. Our family has seen several examples of white boys who slide easily into high executive track careers immediately after college because mom or dad greased the skids for them. These positions of lucre and power typically don’t require professional skills, just an imperious demeanor and a knack for hanging onto a dollar (people forget that profitability can be created by growing revenue or by side-stepping or otherwise deferring expenses — my experience is that rich people got that way largely via the latter).
Since Asian parents hold fewer of these positions, you see less of this with Asian kids generally. However, if you go to a large, well-established Chinatown like that in San Francisco, you will find an economy where Asian scions enjoy an even more overt and unvarnished privilege of position that one sees generally.
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Pure BS; I married into a professional Asian family. Asians on the whole work exceptionally hard at everything they do which accounts for their supposed ‘superiority.’ As a retired educator with 32 years on the job experience I can attest that the key to ‘superiority’ can be summed up in three words; work, work, work. Even my own large extended family caution me to not work so hard (I’m a workaholic.). I’m not Asian but BLACK! We’re all equal people.
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I’ve always believed that the “Asian supremacy argument” was created by the white supremacists to defend their “black/African inferiority argument” as if to say,
“See, we’re not racist, and the way we view Asian people proves it. It’s not our fault that blacks perform on an inferior level (even though it is because we created that “inferiority”).”
I believe this “argument” was created SOLELY to make black and brown people–the biggest victims of white supremacy” — feel inferior since overall we are darker in complexion than many Asians.
This argument certainly hasn’t diminished the existence of white supremacy or white racism against Asians by whites, which is more common than some might believe.
The proof that his is a specious and deceptive method of practicing white supremacy is white people DO NOT treat Asians like they’re superior to whites.
1. Asians are still “yellow people,” and “Chinks” and “people of color.”
2. Asian couples are NEVER portrayed as the most socially desirable couples in white movies and TV shows. In fact, they don’t even exist.
3. Asian women are seldom if ever lifted above the white female in movies and televisions as the most beautiful or desirable women (I’ve NEVER seen this happen)
4. Many allegedly “Asian” nations are still colonized by European nations, like South Korea, Japan, the Philippines, Vietnam, etc.
5. Asians were horribly stereotyped in Hollywood films of the past. Now, they practically invisible.
6. There are still many private white clubs and golf courses where Asians are not allowed to join or play on.
7. the fact that this “argument” exists is a stereotype, and in a white supremacy system, that means the targets are never equals to whites
8. White people still elevate other white people above all Asians when it comes to the best paying jobs and positions of power and political offices. If whites believed Asians were superior, they would put them in charge of everything.
9. That fact that this stereotype even exists while at the same time white people are allowed to be just people without stereotypes (aka ‘human’) is proof enough.
Yes, there are cultural differences between Asians and other groups. So what? At the end of the day we are ALL still held hostage by the global system of white supremacy. Just ask the Japanese who can’t force the US military bases to leave Japan and can’t stop new bases from being built in their country.
When it comes to blacks and Asians — to compare a people whose identity and nation and culture have been intact for over a THOUSAND YEARS and is still INTACT
with a people who were enslaved for 500 YEARS and in the process were ROBBED of their identity, culture, nation, land, religion, and ability to govern their own lives under their own national banner, flag, and land
is just plain STUPID.
Especially when those same (black) people are still under attack by white supremacists who seem to devote the majority of their time and energies to making sure black people stay inferior via inferior living environments, education, healthcare, food quality, water quality, endless promotion of destructive programming and stereotyping via the white mainstream media (TV and films and music they control), deliberate drug infestations,m police terror tactics, and excessive and unjust incarcerations,
Bottom line, the “Asian argument” was created for blacks and browns, not for other white people.
I would strongly advise all black and brown people to do what we should ALWAYS do whenever this kind of propaganda is throw at us like a handful of you know what
DON’T BUY INTO IT!
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I wonder how they select the individuals that the test for the IQ scores. Do they select Asian individuals from all over Asia or do they select those individuals that are in the United States and in the major educational institutions of the world. Where do they find subjects that they test for the various other groups of individuals.
It is my understanding that many Asians that fail the grade structures are removed from school and relegated to the farms and work fields. The same applies in Europe and in many other parts of the world.
One wonders if they are comparing apples and shoes!
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Here We go again trying to fit into a box that is created by someone else. If Asians are that smart have them explain the building of The Pyramids that are all over the world. That took math to do. Because of cultures being halt and destroyed by outsiders no one has proven anything.
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@Trojan Pam:
Yes, we have to keep in mind who created the statistics and the criteria for them. White people create nothing that is not eventually to the benefit of their ego.
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For those of you that don’t know that it is parody. I don’t know what to say. Look at the points of who actually imposes their superiority. Have a nice day.
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Some of you clearly clearly didn’t get what Abagond was getting at and some of you NAILED IT! I don’t need to add my two cents because Trojan Pam absolutely slayed it. [mic drop]
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Lots of Whites (and some non-White people) have used Asians and people of Asian descent to downplay anti-Black racism and anti-immigration against Mexicans and others south of the U.S. border.
Comments from takfam07 (a Japanese-American who resides in Honolulu, Hawaii):
“Asian-Americans faced HEAVY discrimination throughout most of the 20th century – from unfair immigration laws, hiring, financial institutions, college admissions, unconstitutional internment and property confiscation, etc. But we’ve prevailed. In a capitalist society of laws, Asians will always succeed. And without raising a ruckus. East Asia’s phenomenal rise reflects their DESIRE to be more. For blacks, Asians can provide the template for ‘nonwhite success’.”
– How Egypt Became White (YouTube) (2014 comment)
“What if the entire black community adopted the EXACT SAME VALUES AND BEHAVIORS as Americans of Japanese, Chinese and Korean ancestry? Would that improve the black community’s well-being over time? If you think, Yes, the Steel [a White racist commenter] is right. If you think No, then you’re saying that white racism truly accounts for black failures in America – no matter what blacks do.”
– The Religion of Racism (YouTube) (2011 comment)
“Black African countries are now independent and removed from their colonial governments, but have basically all gotten destab ilized, poorer, and lower on the HDI – Human Development Index – since white flight from their countries. Crumbling infrastructures, tribal warfare, violence, disease, reliance on foreign aid. Histories of prior oppression have left a psychological damage on blacks worldwide. Perhaps blacks could hold a global summit to address these issues.”
– The Religion of Racism (YouTube) (2012 comment)
“Somebody needs to be at the bottom [of the societal ladder]. East Asians in America used to be, trust me! My grandmothers were servants in rich white people’s homes. My grandfathers were can-cutters on sugar plantations. They only had grade school educations. BOTTOM. So they worked hard, saved every last penny, invested wisely, sent ALL their kids to college. American Dream – 70 years later, they all died millionaires. They decided they would not stay on the bottom, and they didn’t.”
– The Religion of Racism (YouTube) (2012 comment)
“All I know is that when Commodore Perry forced Japan’s door open to the West in 1853, Japan knew it had to play ball or get reamed [colonized, probably]. So they decided to go from a closed-system, medieval, agrarian-based feudal monarchy to a Western-style, industrialized nation. In a few decades they became the world’s first non-white superpower of the modern era. Japanese are pragmatic and resourceful. Their strength is cultural cohesion, based on honor, pride and discipline.”
– The Religion of Racism (YouTube) (2012 comment)
“@ arronnov – You’re right about that. And Japan (like Germany) is ashamed today of their imperial cruelty to their neighbors – you know they are, you can feel it. And their response is to conceal history, like it didn’t happen. And yes, karma came back around. Today, both Japan and Germany are rich, enlightened [for the most part] and benign, helping the rest of the world. For me, my direct Japanese ancestors were already plantation labor in America by the time of Imperial Japan and WWII.”
– The Religion of Racism (YouTube) (2012 comment)
“The objective fact is that the ancient Egyptians were a Caucasoid people. And this aligns with the fact that the Caucasian race [which includes Europeans, North Africans, Arabs, Jews, most East Indians, etc] has collectively been the most advanced race to date. Mongoloids historically have been a fairly close second, and in fact are coming up strong as we speak – they’re smart and long-term-thinking mofos, too. In fact, some Mongoloid groups have always been more advanced than some Caucasian groups. But Negroids and Australoids remained deeply primitive while these these other two races [Caucasoids and Mongoloids] built impressive, flourishing civilizations.”
– How Egypt Became White (YouTube) (2013 comment)
“Is it genetic? Let’s fact it, it might be. But if so, please Negroes – don’t take it personally! If it IS genetic, it’s simply because Negroids and Australoids are equatorial, tropical people, and therefore did not need to develop the cognitive capacity and temperament that eventually led to civilizational complexity.”
– How Egypt Became White (YouTube) (2013 comment)
“Over 70k + years of separate evolutionary racial development, Caucasoids and Mongoloids faced more challenging environments than Negroids and Australoids, so BY NECESSITY they developed the advanced the visuospatial capacity and long-term conservative thinking that was required for survival. In contrast, Negroids and Australoids could live simpler, tribal lives because it was sufficient to meet the survival demands in THEIR environments. This is why Negroids retained more ‘archaic physical’ traits like speed, fast-twitch strength, prognathic faces, wide nostrils, etc, but perhaps less reliance on intellect. This maybe why so many blacks seem more impulsive, churlish, and less concerned with the consequences of actions. They had greater luxury of ‘living for the moment,’ so the ‘n_gg_s’ were not weeded out of their gene pool, as was the case for Caucasoids and Mongoloids. Hence all the crime, imprisonment, welfare, poverty, dilapidated living conditions, illegitimacy stats, etc.”
– How Egypt Became White (YouTube) (2013 comment)
“The upside of innate black strengths are manifest in fantastic, brilliant achievements in sports, music, dancing, and other primarily physical endeavors. And this is not a backhanded compliment. I you ask me, Negroid Jimi Hendrix’s ‘Little Wings’ is as impressive a structural artistic as Caucasoids Egypt’s Temple of Osiris.”
– How Egypt Became White (YouTube) (2013 comment)
“The downside of impulsiveness and instant gratification is that blacks struggle to compete with Caucasoids and Mongoloids in an advanced societal setting or at least to maintain the same civilizational standard, because the latter two might simply be better adapted for abstract thinking, cooperative planning and long-term gain.”
– How Egypt Became White (YouTube) (2013 comment)
“But even if so, remember: these are the ‘per capita’ averages only. Because there are smart and dumb people of every race. There are genius blacks, there are blacks with honor and integrity and selfishness, too. Maybe not as many per capita, but obviously they exist. Even if most lack the courage to publicly decry black cultural dysfunctionality. Perhaps the IQ ‘Bell Curve’ determines overall racial performance. However, I still strongly feel that a race can overcome its inherent limitations through sheer vision, will, honor, hard work and sacrifice.”
– How Egypt Became White (YouTube) (2013 comment)
Fellow commenters, the polarizing takfam07 does NOT speak for the Asian-American community. He speaks for anti-Black racists who downplay white racism.
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The history of SE Asians and Africans are entirely different. Asians never become the face of slavery. They never their culture stripped from them. They all enjoy relatively stable homelands. The Korean has surging South Korea, the Japanese have Japan the Chinese have China. American citizens of these nations have a connection with their homelands they speak their native tongue and reap the benefits of cultural capital.
African Americans have been taught to despise Africa and believe that it is dysfunctional and to shun any attempts to build. We do this at our own peril. Nigeria is coming up, Rwanda is coming up, Ghana is coming up, Kenya is coming up, Angola is coming up. Within a century the Africans (in particular Nigeria) will be the 3rd most populated region behind China and India. That’s a lot of labor potential.
It only takes a few generation to go from 3rd World to running things. Europe was no more advanced in the 1300s than the Mali and Songhai Empires. A couple of hundred years later things have changed drastically.
These next few generations will the last that will experience European hegemony.
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@hmurchison
Not true at all. Many of the lands that are now China and in South East Asia Kampuchea (Cambodia) Empire had taken slaves to build their huge temples. I should know because my family history can trace back to a faction of these slaves.
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Eeeew who only got a 580 on the old sat math? O sorry a lot of ppl. I got 680 math 720 verbal. Oh well. Not on your chart.
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@hmurchison
“American citizens of these nations have a connection with their homelands they speak their native tongue and reap the benefits of cultural capital.”
This statement is only true of some Asian Americans, not all. The more generations a family has been in the U.S., the less likely any of this is to be true. Among immigrants, there is a wide variance as to the degree of economic and other ties maintained with the home country. Refugees may not even manage to keep in contact with their family members.
It also plays into the perpetual foreigner stereotype: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/10/02/the-perpetual-foreigner-stereotype/
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Unfortunately, it’s not about who is on top, but who is on the bottom.
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The Asians work hard, so we should all follow their example, Jesus Christ what the hell has happened to your dignity? I’m starting to lose all respect for black Americans except when it comes to commerce (gimme your money) and sex (Oakland Booty!) Its the New Tens people. Mexicans are the New Nigras, and Asians are the New Jews.
Just like the Old Jews, the Asians are simply trading political power for economic power and financial security. But, lacking the inroads that the Jews made in the areas of Mergers and Acquisitions, Think Tanks, hedge funds and maor financial institutions, they will end up even weaker than the Jews. This is the opposite of black America, where they hold great politial power, but seem dis-inclined to use it to achieve economic power, mainly due to manipulation by political personalities (Obama, Melissa Perry, Cornell West) and institutional trickery by liberals. Of course, there are blacks, no, “New Blacks”, that would gladly hand over political power for economic gains, not realizing that without the former, you cannot keep the latter.
The “Asians” (a mythical group created by census takers) will continue to do the arbitrage grunt-work, the VHDL design work, the OpenMP prallel programming optimizations, maybe some legal work, and so on. But they will never get to what matters – real political power that will protect them from the type of economic exploitation that is so common to high skill/STEM tpe worker. Getting laid off with no warning during the latest Aerospace downsizing, screwed out of cash during the IPO, getting treated like a slave because you’re on a H1B visa etc. Te real big oke is that they will never be allowed to the heights that the Old Jews reached. No Secretary of State for you!
Oh and that Model Minority thing? Its a lie.
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@V8
700/700. 1400 team!
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yup.
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@Trojan Pam
You knocked it out of the park!
I wonder how well Asian Americans would fare if they had to face the daily, withering assault from an entire system that Black folk face?
What if everything Asian Americans attempt to build is systematically torn down by White Supremacists and their agents. Then the failure of the attempt is publicly attributed to them being “lazy”, “stupid” or “immoral”? Would hard work alone be enough?
What if Asian American leaders were shot, poisoned, disappeared, exiled or imprisoned for decades?
What if Asian American communities had to operate with a deficit of working age men because of mass imprisonment and police lynching?
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@hmurchison
“Nigeria is coming up, Rwanda is coming up, Ghana is coming up, Kenya is coming up, Angola is coming up.”
This brings to mind a comment on the Open Thread recently by a Kenyan national (?), villagewriter. This is a bit of what she/he had to say about the business climate in Kenya today:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/open-thread/#comment-314126
Personally, when I read entreprenurial blogs and websites, Africans from Nigeria and Kenya, in particular, are always well represented in the comment sections. They are serious and they are surging ahead. It is good to see.
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@ lkeke35
absolutely. Anything that is promoted in a white supremacy, be it “racial superiority” dogma, or black people getting high positions, awards and movie roles — will ALWAYS support white supremacy in one form or another.
FYI — my comments were not intended to demean Asian people, but I do not believe they or ANY group could have overcome what blacks in america have experienced and not been catastrophically damaged.
The irony is black people are so resilient that the system is afraid to let up its efforts. Black people are so ingenious in those areas we are allowed to compete that people all over the world mimic us.
Black people are so inspired that without our courage and determination there would be NO CIVIL RIGHTS for any non-white group, including Asians, and that includes admissions to universities, and the ability to eat at any restaurant or book a room at any hotel. WE are the ones who fought and died so that ALL non-white people would benefit. ,
It wasn’t so long ago that Asians were segregated into “Chinatowns” all over america,(and still are to a degree) an not so long ago that Asians were not allowed to live in states like Tennessee.
In China, there is a massive amount of evidence that blacks existed there long before white supremacy was a thought bubble. I suggest all check out the article and the youtube video “When Blacks Ruled Asia”
My biggest concern regarding black inferiority is so many black people believe it must be true. It’s like a case of the Wizard of Oz. It only exists because people have been taught it exists, but if you pull that curtain back, all you’ll see is a old white man pulling levers and making a lot of noise.
there is POWER in truth. There is POWER in blackness and in our melanated genetics. There is NOTHING more superior than the original version, and if we understood that we would NEVER worship white or light skin and we would NEVER fall for the lie of black inferiority.
They know who we are and they know that we do not know. That’s why they will do everything in their power to deceive us and hide the truth.
(sorry about the long post)
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@ Afrofem
I agree, and a classic example is “Black Wall Street.” For those who are not familiar with the story, I suggest you google it.
Just imagine if Black Wall Street had not been burned to the ground by jealous whites? What could it have become almost 100 years later?
Would there be “Black Wall Streets” all over america? Due to integrating into a black hating society and the damage to our collective self-esteem, black people seem to have lost faith in ourselves to such a disastrous degree that we bewe cannot survive or even exist outside the white system.
This, to me, is the biggest crime of all that has been committed against us.
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correction:
Due to integrating into a black hating, white supremacist society and the resulting damage to our collective self-esteem, black people seem to have lost faith in ourselves to such a disastrous degree that we believe we cannot survive or even exist outside the white system.
This, to me, is the biggest crime of all that has been committed against us.
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do let’s say indians (ie south asians) really ally themselves with china and ‘southeast asia’ in regards to being even classified as ‘asian’ as a whole,
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@ Trojan Pam
Well said! I agree: deep down Whites do not believe Asians are better than they are; that the model minority stereotype, as a stereotype, is a contradiction in terms; that it is driven more by anti-Black racism than any sort of sincere admiration of Asians.
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@ Allen Shaw
The whole Asian IQ thing is as cooked up and fake as the African IQ thing. As far as I know there has never been any thorough, across-the-board testing of Asians. The numbers you see are not representative at all. And some of them are just plain made up.
In the 1960s and before, Asian American IQ and SAT scores were lower than Whites. Now they are higher. But in between came the Asian brain drain.
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@Trojan Pam
Yeah!
For decades, the system was content to merely shortchange Black community schools and skimp on municipal services to Black neighborhoods.
Now the system is closing schools and firing teachers in in Philadelphia, Chicago, Memphis and Atlanta.
Black communitiy members in Detroit and Baltimore are facing wholesale water shut-offs in an effort to drive Black residents from those cities.
Glen Ford, editor of Black Agenda Report describes the end game of Black community dispersal promoted by writers like Malcom Gladwell like this:
http://www.blackagendareport.com/new_yorker_katrina_logic_of_genocide
The election of Obama really deranged the system. They are trying to ensure that no other Black child grows up to aspire to the highest office in the land—and succeed.
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Interesting. Black flight. But get in where people won’t let u fit in.
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Delete /Ignore above. Black flight probably won’t work like that. People with low incomes can’t just move to a new city. Especially when low income housing plans are vigorously opposed by the same liberals that claim to support the cause of poor people.
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@satanforce
The point is involuntary dispersal predicated on some form of disaster like Katrina.
The school closings and water shut-offs, etc. are weakening tactics. A disaster then provides the system with a coup de grace opportunity.
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Yes, I understand that part, but I doubt it’s that simple. There may also be the creation of “sacrifices zones”, where essential services are simply ignored, and allowed to deteriorate. There is also the use of network flow algorithms – the actual com Sci ones, to move people around as desired. Think a more evolved version of South Africa labour migration.
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@ abagond
I agree. Whites do not believe Asians are better than they are and behind it, like you said, is the attempt to justify anti-Black racism. White supremacists excel at creating “gang fights” –
Pitting non-white groups against each other in any way possible
browns against blacks
yellow against black and brown
black male against black female
black female against black male
middle-class blacks and browns against poor blacks and browns
And then they stand back and watch the confusion of people who have yet to understand they ALL HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM
white supremacy
This is something Neely Fuller, Jr. talks about (I suggest people look him up on youtube)
Why do people think they are plotting and planning to reduce non-white populations all over the planet?
Because once black and brown and red and yellow wrap our heads around the biggest con game on the planet — white supremacy — and get our collective sanity back
GAME OVER
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@ Afrofem
Good points about education and dislocation.
Hurricane Katrina was used (and some believe the levies were deliberately breached so the Lower Ninth Ward would flood) to justify the FORCED dislocation of blacks from New Orleans. Some blacks had land and homes they had owned for generations. All of it wiped out DELIBERATELY. The best way to keep people from developing wealth is to keep them moving.
They are dislocating black people all over the nation under the guise of “gentrification” which is just another tactic of white supremacy to keep black areas “unstable”
Everything that happens in “politics” happens deliberately — according to former President Roosevelt– and I wholeheartedly agree.
Keep in mind that the white supremacists orchestrated the election of Obama. Stop a moment and consider what that means.
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You know I have some personal beef with Asians as some of the biggest opposition to my trying to attain more knowledge in the Information Technology were Asian Men.
Many Asian men that I have come across, are not only resistant, but downright damn HOSTILE at the thought of a black man getting into technology. Their whole self-esteem VESTED in being the smartest of all other races.
However they can’t take what they dish out at all. They will be WICKED towards a black person. However the minute a white person discriminates against them, they are ready to slit their own wrists.
They’re always in their groups.
They’re never more than arms length away from each other.
They never interact with anyone who is not Asian.
It’s almost like they’re robots.
And if we think white supremacy is rough. We ain’t see nothing if these take over.
In China they’d stomp all over a black person if they even dared try and open a small fish stall, if that stall out did the locals. Yet they’re all over Africa buying up everything.
So Africans better recognize fast, before it’s too late, to stop the immigration of Asians to their Continent. Or they are going to end up being OPPRESSED in their own land all over again.
The Asian menace must be resisted. We cannot allow them any more control over our lives.
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@satanforce
Good point. It won’t be easy. There will be increased resistance to the plan as more people become aware of the end game.
Yet, the people behind the plan have lots of time, money and influence. They have created institutions to train their chosen successors to carry out their plan. Those resources don’t guarantee completion, but they sure help.
“Think a more evolved version of South Africa labour migration.”
Hmmm! Very dystopian.
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@Trojan Pam
“Keep in mind that the white supremacists orchestrated the election of Obama. Stop a moment and consider what that means.”
I have.
I shared some thoughts about Obama earlier this year:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/02/08/maya-angelou-2/#comment-308642
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china? wants their own implementation of the tcp/ip stack, and icann/ieee/iso etc. aint havin it, it’s political, also the very public back and forth hacking allegations
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but that’s higher order, there is all kinds of people getting into technology, it seems just below healthcare, i work with a lot of black people in the telecom/computers industry, cable tv install etc. it needs to be a secular trans-class organization, obviously the free breakfast club comes to mind the usa is hurting bad economically, the unions have it seemingly under control to some degrees sorry this one is all over the place dont have much time
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i think they still have job corps for the kids they get microsoft certs, a+, network+ etc
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Tcp/ip has always been flawed. Ethernet not self-synchronozing, ip address allocation makes no sense. Jumbo frames, uhhh. But I’ll take it over any “Made in China ” solution any day.
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@satanforce
We are pretty close to that situation in certain urban areas now. Philly, Baltimore and Detroit come to mind.
This article shows how one small city in Michigan was literally left in the dark and what the Black residents are doing about it:
http://midwestenergynews.com/2015/05/28/detroit-area-community-reclaims-its-streets-with-solar-power/
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@ TheHipHopRecord
I believe you when you say you’ve been discriminated against by Asians. That’s wrong, and I’m sorry it happened to you.
But this?
“Their whole self-esteem VESTED in being the smartest of all other races.”
“They’re always in their groups. They’re never more than arms length away from each other. They never interact with anyone who is not Asian. It’s almost like they’re robots.”
That’s just blatant stereotyping. It’s biased, hurtful, and ugly.
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You have to see with him. He’s obviously damaged.
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@satanforce
I know it’s a lie. Always has been.
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@TheHipHopRecords (@TheHipHopRecord),
In the first half of your comment, it seems like you are discussing the interaction of Asian Americans and black Americans in the USA.
In the 2nd half, it seems like you are referring to Africans in China and Mainland PRC Chinese in Africa.
Do you liken these two phenomena with each other?
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When we
– stereotype fellow citizens as despised “other”
– Invoke Perpetual Foreigner stereotypes as a model for race relations
– proffer “Yellow Peril” fears as a personal and national security imperative
etc.
then we are embracing tenets that clearly formed and still form the basis of White Supremacy as practised in the USA.
Even if one rejects the white dictionary definitions of “racism” and replaces them with “white supremacy”, surely overtly embracing key white supremacy principles would be viewed as racist behaviour, even if performed by POC.
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Solitaire
OK. Fair enough. I admit (Now reading back) It did come across a bit generalising about Asians people for sure. I was not speaking on all Asian people.
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Here, in South Africa, though, are disparate population groups of Asian descent who have varying degrees of antipathy towards Africans, some granted honorary white status: South Koreans, Chinese, Japanese and Taiwanese.The latter have an appalling track record in their treatment of South African Black people. The honorary whites did not lent support during apartheid, except to be included as whites, i.e. Chinese. ( I am not going to qualify my assertion with ‘not all’).
Although Indians generally also have more than a disdainful attitude towards Africans( but were themselves treated horribly during apartheid) there are some from their ranks, admirable stalwart anti- apartheid activists, e.g. Dullah Omar, Jay Naidoo, Ahmed Kathtrada, Fatima Meer.
Cape Malays mostly descendants from Indonesian slaves, are are different group and not classified as Asian. Phillipinos were classified under apartheid and banished to the bantustans as Black. Go figure.
I have never thought of Taiwanese and Japanese (South Africans) as better or cleverer (or worse than), who generally look down and are contemptuous of people like me. Rather, they are people who were afforded the psychic freedom from total oppression and granted white privilege at the expense of Africans.
I can’t really recall whites here of putting Asian descendants on an IQ pedestal to excuse their racism, in the way it is played out in the USA. In my interaction with whites they reserve a semblance of guarded ‘respect’ for Asians, i.e. East Asians, usually commenting on their work ethic, although the ‘but’ invariably arises. With the Japanese- the adjective,’cruel’ come to mind. Western Asians,i.e. Palestinians,on the other hand are differentiated as ‘dirty Arabs’ and ‘terrorists’ and white israelis as ‘civilized whites’, Indians as ‘sly’ and unscrupulous businessmen and well, Indonesians descendants as ‘faithful servants’. Cape Malay Muslims are a despised ‘other’ as they neither here nor there and fill a useful bulwark against Africans.
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^^ excuse typos and omissions
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@ TheHipHopRecords (@TheHipHopRecord)
I ‘liked’ your comment because it touched on the right intuition of the Chinese presence in Africa.
Kiwi, I have made it clear I do not want to have any exchange or discussion with you, no matter what intersection of commonality or difference we might have.
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@Kiwi
Political power is meaningless without financial power. When you control the economy. That’s what matters
The negative reaction that some black people have had to Lin is more about how he is described – EG- Smart (as opposed to dumb), selfless (as opposed to selfish)
The conflict is between black people and mass media, not between black basketball fans and Jeremy Lin. I’m sure Lin has experienced some genuine reverse-racism in his basketball career. I feel also that if Lin played the same but were black, he’d be far less likely to be praised for his intelligence and selflessness. But Lin has plenty of fervent black fans,
Also whether some can hit a three pointer is not as subjective as whether you think someone will be good as an I-T professional
Look at the Peter Liang case. A lot of Asians (Not all) supported this a guy heavy. There are a lot of Asian (wannabe) white supremacists. They’re argument was “Well how come our guy (Peter Liang) got convicted when Darren Wilson didn’t and the white guy who killed Eric Garner. If they get away with killing blacks. We should too”
And they’re mad because they got their Asian n*gga wake up call. They feel they didn’t get to practice white supremacy. That is : The privilege of killing black people and walking free.
And that’s so disrespectful because a lot of Asians got over in the USA because of all the ass whoopings that black ppl got in the 60’s which kicked the door open for them to come (In large numbers) via the 1965 immigration act.
The black community have also rode for the Asian community. The rise of the Chinese films in the 70’s, black supported them. All those Asian firms in black areas.
I give whites benefit of the doubt ? Are you crazy ? My beef is always with white racism. I NEVER lose sight of that. Yes – Some can be racist to blacks…..but they learnt from the best.
That’s because I’m racist myself. But I admit it.
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@TheHipHopRecords
Do you mean those Martial Arts / Kung Fu films in the 1970s? Those were foreign films (mostly from HK and Taiwan). What do any of them have to do with “the Asian community” in the US? How does watching those films support those communities?
The only Kung Fu themed production that had to do with the USA and produced in the USA that I can think of is the TV series, Kung Fu, which featured David Carradine in Yellowface. If anything, that was a slap in the face for the Asian community in the USA.
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@TheHipHopRecords
So true. That connection is often lost in the mists of time. Thank you for shining a light on the 1965 Immigration Act and African American involvement in opening the door to the US for millions of immigrants from Asia, Africa and Latin America. A lot of African immigrants and refugees in this country need a refresher course on that history, too.
Also, THHR, since you are based in the UK, when you refer to “Asians” are you primarily describing the behaviors of South Asians (Indians, Pakistanis and Bangledeshis) or all Asian groups (there are many in the UK)?
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@taotesan
Thank you for that ground level view on how national origin plays out in South Africa. I knew about the “honorary White” status for NE Asian descent people in SA.
I’m still trying to figure out why Filipino’s were considered an out group like the indigenous people and banished to the Bantustans. Perhaps the Dutch/Southeast Asian colonial dynamic? Amazing!
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@Hip Hop Records
I apologize that I assumed you were talking about the USA. If you were not, then I made a mistake.
However, if you were referring to the UK, it appeared that you view Asians there as foreigners or even foreign invaders to the country, but not blacks. This is curious since both largely trace their origins either directly to Britain’s former colonies, or indirectly as forced, involuntary labour to one of their colonies.
Then you jump back to the 1965 Immigration Act in the USA. So I am not sure when you talk about communities, where you are talking about.
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If we visualize the Asian Supremacy stereotype as a coin, its reverse side is the Yellow Peril or Asian Menace stereotype. I think the “yellow peril” stereotype is the one that most frightens Asian Americans, especially those who know their history, because white people use it to whip up hysteria and violence against Asian Americans. This stereotype was the root of the massacres of Chinese Americans in California, the internment of Japanese Americans, and the murder of Vincent Chin. Simply put, “yellow peril” is the Asian version of the “black brute” and “red savage” stereotypes, all used by whites to justify unwarranted violence against POC.
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@Afrofem
I don’t think that connection had ever been lost. Most scholars of that period do recognize a connection between the US civil rights movement and the revision to the immigration laws in the 1960s. I certainly recognize that connection as well.
However, at the same time, we should not imagine connections that were not there or imagine effects (e.g., “Opening the door”) that are not direct consequences of that movement.
For one, whereas the black civil rights movement was not launched for the express purpose to change the immigration laws, any effect was certainly indirect. It would be disingenuous or at least an exaggeration to term it as “African Americans involved in opening the door” for millions of immigrants to the US.
Next,
– immigration from the Western Hemisphere (ie, Canada, Latin America and the Caribbean) prior to 1965 was not subject to quotas (unless the would be immigrant was of Asian descent up to the 1940s). The growth in immigration from those regions was not directly due to the change in the immigration laws (ie, they did not “open the door” to immigration from those regions).
– Although the civil rights movement did have an indirect effect, the much bigger factor was pressure from overseas, ie, the USA, as leader of the “free world” in the midst of the Cold War, still held such racist immigration policies, esp. re: Asians.
– Asians, who had already suffered for many many decades of split families, had been fighting all along for revision to immigration and naturalization and citizenship laws, well before the civil rights movement took off. In fact, the revision in the immigration laws that redirected focus on family reunification was probably more important to the majority of Asians already in the USA than the issue of opening more slots for other categories of new immigrants (who did not already have close family in the USA).
– Prior to the 1920s, Africans did not have strict quotas assigned on their immigration. And persons of African descent or origin have never had any restriction on naturalization due to race since 1870.
– Latinos, Jews, Asians, Native Americans also participated in the 1960s civil rights movement. It was not strictly a black thing.
– Many groups had been fighting for civil rights for a long long time, well before the 1950s-60s civil rights movement. They continued to fight for it afterwards. It would be simply wrong to suggest that other groups just woke up and started fighting for their civil rights only in response to the 1955-1968 civil rights movement. If anything, the Wong Kim Ark v. US (1898) SCOTUS ruling which ensured that children of immigrants or even children of legal visitors to the USA would be US citizens under jus soli had more impact on US citizenship than the 1960s civil rights movement. We definitely need refresher courses on that.
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@solitaire,
As you mentioned in the other thread, we are in dire need of a post on Yellow Peril. It has been an enduring theme in US society and culture since at least the mid 1800s and it is never phrased that way or even discussed in our US history textbooks.
I mentioned to Abagond over 3 years ago that that is the main factor that has triggered most of the anti-Asian violence in the USA for the past 165 years and it is still sitting on the edge ready to take off at any moment. When I see the current escalating standoff in the South China Sea, one of my great concerns is the impact that it could have to Americans of Asian descent in the USA. They will always be viewed as a threat to the American way of life, and all the tropes of Alien Invasions are a thinly veiled manifestation of this fear. If you look at Hollywood, it is what gets whites and blacks to team together to fight a common enemy.
Yellow Peril also shows up in the problem of racial profiling for traitors and spies and other national security threats.
I cannot imagine any Asian American NOT having been asked throughout their entire life which country they would support if the US and [relevant Asian country] got into a war. But I can imagine what the USA would do to them if that happened.
It has been suggested as a topic for a post for Asian American Heritage month every year, but has never been done.
That would be good topic for a follow up post to Yellow Peril, as there are already posts on the Black Brute and Red Savage stereotypes on this blog.
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As Food for Thought, I’d like to offer this week’s article from The Globalist, to the conversation. It’s by Sun Xi, a social responsibility investment analyst and independent commentary writer based in Singapore. It’s rather simplistic, but being Asian it sheds light on what young Asians are thinking about, and also shares his some points about the absence of a universal Asian identity, as well as the lack of unified leadership.
http://www.theglobalist.com/rising-asia-uneven-journey-promising-future/
The conversation seems to be alot about Asians as regarded in white supremacist America (and the U. K.?). In my perspective, America is hardly ‘the promised land’, and I’m interested in scouting out new territories for existential fulfillment. I also encouraging young people of African American descent and those of us that are mature and still adventurous to learn languages, and consider the possibilities of sharing our creative productivity and genius in new global locations. And this is not to say that we might not again encounter prejudice and bigotry. But this version here, is tired. I’m looking to step beyond it.
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Abagond, if my previous comment and the article referred to add nothing to the discussion, I’ll appreciate your NOT posting it or deleting it. Thanks.
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@Kiwi
Don’t embarrass yourself dude. Asian people (as a group) have never been on the front line in their stand against white supremacy. The same is true of Latinos and Indians.
It’s always been black people who have led that charge. Even today look at the riots in Ferguson and Baltimore, black people fighting for freedom, knowing full well that they’re outgunned.
Let me see Asians face tanks, dogs, water hoses and give their lives to the struggle as many black people worldwide have done.
Hell, I can’t even think of one prominent Asian person that’s given their life to their struggle of fighting racism
Black people ? Where to begin ? MLK. Malcolm X. Marcus Garvey. Harriet Tubman. Nat Turner. Farrakhan. Mandela. Steve Biko. Francis Cress Wesling.
The list goes on and on
Don’t get me wrong, there are no doubt some Asians who are about that life, and who don’t f*ck around and would have it with anyone. You know you had Asian kamikaze pilots but I look at how people act as a group.
Asians (as a group) just want to be the oppressor, that’s what that Peter Liand stuff was about
Even on a personal level, there have been many times I have seen a white man off the street, in a Chinese restaurant come in and be rude as hell to staff, do all that “ching chong” nonsense, yet the staff don’t do nothing.
Let a white man off the street come into a black restaurant or barber and start being racist and we’ll show you how you should handle that nonsense.
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@jefe
I see this issue very differently. According to my research and understanding, the Civil Rights movement had a direct bearing on the passage of the 1965 Immigration Act.
The Civil Rights movement shifted the political and moral conversation around issues of fairness and equality in the US. That shift affected not only African Americans but all other citizens as well. Chicanos, Native Americans, Asian Americans, Gays and Lesbians and Euro-American Feminists all saw possibilities for greater expression and opportunity.
According to Mark Naison, professor of African-American studies and history at Fordham University in New York. “It was the civil rights movement… [that] broke through the whole aura of political stagnation that was created by the McCarthy era and the Cold War, and allowed us to imagine another world…and allowed people to talk about real issues in our domestic lives.”
One group that fought hardest for fairness in the immigration system was the American Committee on Italian Migration. By the 1960s. they had the numbers and they were finally “White” enough to be heard. However it was the momentum of laws clearing away legal restrictions against Black people that caused federal legislators to rethink the highly restrictive quota system of existing immigration laws.
In an 2013 Associated Press article by Deepti Hajela, the connection between the Civil Rights movement and the 1965 Immigration Law is discussed:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/civil-rights-immigration-history-connected-072748928.html?ref=gs
I agree that there has always been a flow of immigrants from the Caribbean region. The deportation of Marcus Garvey to Jamaica in 1927, is just one example of how their sometimes nebulous legal status served political aims.
The primary reason Africans and Afro-Caribbeans did not emigrate to the US prior to 1965 en mass is because they were involved in intense independence struggles from European colonial powers.
After achieving “independence” IMF/World Bank gangsters burdened their economies with odious loans and savage “structural adjustment” austerity plans leading to the best and the brightest moving to Europe and North America. That flow started in the 1970s.
While Chicanos, Native Americans, Asian Americans and a tiny minority of Whites participated in the Civil Rights movement, the movement was created and sustained by Black people. Countless Black private individuals donated time, money, energy, food, transportation, room and board for an army of Black and White activists during Freedom Rides, Freedom Summers, Voter Registration drives, Freedom Schools and rebuilding of burned out Black Churches.
Black people bore the brunt of assaults, beatings, shootings, job losses, exile, bombings and house destruction during the movement. Three examples of the horrific violence Black people endured during the Civil Rights Era include:
“Bombingham”, Alabama
Black people in Birmingham, Alabama endured a White Supremacist bombing campaign in 1963 that terrorized the Black community. According to some accounts, nearly 80 Black homes and other sites were firebombed.
https://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2013/09/16/bombingham-alabama-fifty-years-later/
Orangeburg Massacre
“The Orangeburg Massacre took place in Orangeburg, South Carolina at South Carolina State University on February 8th, 1968. This horrific incident which ended with three young men, Samuel Hammond, Henry Smith, and Delano Middleton, killed and 27 other students wounded, was the worst example of violence on a college campus in South Carolina’s history.”
http://www.blackpast.org/aah/orangeburg-massacre-1968
Jackson State Massacre
On May 14, 1970, local and state police opened fire on a group of students at the predominantly black Jackson State College in Mississippi. In a twenty-eight-second barrage of gunfire, police fired hundreds of rounds into the crowd. Two were killed and a dozen injured.
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/5/14/40_years_ago_police_kill_two
In addition, according to the Civil Rights Movement Veterans, in Mississippi alone between the years of 1955 and 1970, fifty-six people died because of their connection (or perceived connection) to the Civil Rights Movement. That is just the official tally. The real numbers are probably higher. The victims were overwhelmingly Black.
http://www.crmvet.org/mem/msmartyr.htm
I agree with you about the importance of the Wong Kim Ark v. US (1898) Supreme Court ruling which affirmed that children of immigrants or even children of legal residents to the USA would be US citizens under birthright citizenship. I disagree with the ruling’s impact. To me, it had a negligible effect on the immigration and naturalization system of the US. That system did not change in any substantive way until the 1965 Immigration Act. That system was directly impacted by the on the ground activism and tremendous sacrifices of ordinary Black people and their allies in the vanguard.
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@TheHipHopRecords
“Hell, I can’t even think of one prominent Asian person that’s given their life to their struggle of fighting racism”
Ghandi???
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@Afrofem,
I agree with all the facts that you presented. There are two opinions that I disagree with. If you still insist that your interpretation is correct, then we are going to have to agree to disagree.
I might not fully agree with the definitions you propose of “direct consequence” and “indirect consequence”.
I would call the changes in immigration and naturalization in 1965 a direct consequence of the civil rights movement if that was one of the key objectives of that movement. It was not. So, despite the significant impact it had, I would still call it an indirect impact.
A combination of factors coalesced to create the change in immigration laws, including the civil rights movement, the Cold War, and Americans themselves, primarily Asians, who had been fighting for it all along for nearly a century. The former two had an indirect impact.
I completely disagree that the Wong Kim Ark v. US case did not have significant bearing on US immigration until 1965. At the very least it gave rise to the proliferation of paper sons and daughters, which actually caused the Chinese American population to grow multifold 1906-1965. For Chinese Americans, it was substantive, and explains the origins of over a third of Chinese Americans today, a direct consequence of Wong Kim Ark. And it was not only the Chinese that this act benefited, but also all the other groups who had been restricted by the 1920s immigration laws. Millions of people were guaranteed citizenship in the USA thanks to the Wong Kim Ark case.
It continues to impact today, and is the main reason why children of Latino and African (and European and Asian) immigrants are unquestionably US citizens. Its impact has been major since the ruling in 1898, and is one of the hotly contested principles that immigration opponents want to overturn. However, I would agree that the impact on the these other groups has been indirect.
In any case, it can be difficult to point to specific causes and end results. For example, one might argue (and correctly so) that Loving v. Virginia not only benefited blacks, but also paved the way to grant Native Americans and Asians the right to marry whom they want. However, it would be wrong to say that other groups had not been working on it all along. We only have to go back a decade earlier to learn about Naim v. Naim, when a Chinese American man appealed the decision of the State of Virginia to annul his legal marriage, and lost.
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@Kiwi
I would not say it is just population size. I would also add that they dealt with the brunt of racial discrimination. Not discounting the struggle of Asians, but it was not the same.
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@Solitaire
Not sure if the internet rumors are true or not, but ghandi was said to be a racist who simply did not like black people. Maybe this can be clarified in discussion.
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@ Kiwi,
OMG, did I spell Gandhi wrong?! I shouldn’t have gotten out of bed this morning. First I mess up simple html coding, now this!
*hides head under pillow*
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THHR has a severe deficit in his awareness of US and world history, unless it is simply a matter of being willfully obtuse.
Hundreds of thousands of Asians in the USA and millions of Native Americans have lost their lives, standing up to white racism. The US government has simply been much more effective in removing them from the population than they were in removing blacks. There are plaques and memorials across the USA commemorating this, but not many and very few tell the story from the viewpoint of those who lost their lives. Why? because they were removed in much greater numbers and there are not many descendants left to tell the story.
How about “tank man” in the Tian An Men massacre incident?
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@ Sharina
I don’t know anything about that, so I will have to get back to you. If it is true, it’s unfortunate, but like MLK, Gandhi wasn’t perfect (both of them apparently had major issues with sexism, for instance). It would tarnish his legacy, but it would not change the fact that he spent his life fighting racism in the form that it took in his country. He succeeded in expelling the white colonial oppressors using nonviolent resistance and at the time of his death was working to resolve deep-seated religious prejudices between Hindus and Muslims.
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@Sharina
It was not the same as most did not survive. Their struggle resulted in a much much higher proportional death toll.
Since black Americans managed to survive their oppressions to a much larger extent, then they can also help voice the oppression of those who did not survive.
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@Kiwi
I disagree. It looks that way because frankly it is that way and population size does not really explain the fact that they are bearing the brunt of discrimination. Latinos are an ever growing group and they still are not facing the magnitude of discrimination that blacks are. Asians are smaller, but their discrimination is not at the level of blacks and not in the manner of them either.
Natives are probably the only group that can say they are being killed by cops more than blacks.
With that in mind people are more willing to fight if they are more effected by something. For example, middle class blacks maybe upset by issues, but are not quick to jump in issues with lower class blacks because they feel they are least effected by it.
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@ Kiwi @ Jefe
I would add: as long as the white man is promoting the Model Minority myth, he has a reason to erase the history of Asian American protest and resistance. Look at the labor movement, for one example, how Cesar Chavez has become the face of the grape-growers strike and has been issued a postage stamp etc., while no one commemorates Larry Itliong.
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*affected*
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@jefe
If you don’t mind sharing some of those large Asian protests that took place within the US that resulted in the death of Asians. I will be honest and say I personally am skeptical and was sadly unsuccessful in finding any. Could be due to my search word usage.
Yes, I believe Asians protest. No, I do not believe theirs resulted in more loss.
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@Kiwi
No. I will agree when someone can show me a situation or story etc. But I will never agree that population plays as much of a role or even a role at all in the reason for a high level of discrimination against blacks.
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@Solitaire
I agree that he did an amazing job at fighting racism in his country and he is human and thus have his faults.
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Sharina,
You need to get this book:
“Driven Out: The Forgotten War Against Chinese Americans,” by Jean Pfaelzer. She talks about the removal in 253 towns in California alone. There were still hundreds and hundreds of other towns in Washington, Oregon, idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Utah, Nevada, Colorado, etc. etc. where people were driven out or killed.
She mentioned that Chinese indeed resisted, protested and fought against most of these forced removals, resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands. 7000 court cases were brought up following the Chinese Exclusion Act in the first decade.
My great-grandfather stood up to a white mob in Oregon and was killed. I have heard that his name IS on a plaque somewhere, and I will need to go find it and check it out.
https://books.google.com.hk/books?id=koQalf4HiZ4C
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/29/books/review/Limerick-t.html
This is just one phenomena where there was massive resistance, protest and DEATH, the scale of which arguably exceeds the Civil Rights movement of the mid-20th century.
Is the case of Korematsu v. US also not a sign of protest and resistance against the forced imprisonment of over 115,000 US citizens and residents? Our “friend” SCOTUS justice Scalia refused to allow that ruling to be reversed in 2014.
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@Solitaire
Well, arguably one of the main reasons why the Model Minority was advanced in the first place in 1966 was to point out that Chinese Americans had been imported as forced labour in the USA, then shut out of the country in 1882, and then massacred and driven out to dwindle to such small numbers. It also pointed out how 110,000-120,000 citizens and residents were imprisoned in the Japanese American internment camps. The two articles in 1966 pointed out how Asians had suffered terrible acts of treatment at the hands of US society and government, yet did not scale such large destructive protests demanding equal rights with whites or destroy white property. The purpose was a backlash against Affirmative Action.
But alas, the reason why the Model Minority myth was invented in the first place has been largely lost on the US population. but it is republicans who retain an element of the original myth by insisting that Asians still are not white, yet don’t cause so much trouble. White liberals have been the most active in erasing the history of Asian American resistance and protest.
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@ Jefe
“White liberals have been the most active in erasing the history of Asian American resistance and protest.”
What is their reason for doing so, in your opinion?
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@ Kiwi
I have not read up thread as of yet to know what Jefe has or has not posted and I don’t remember the other threads where he may or may not have posted stories of the US. That is why I am asking for them here on this subject matter.
You stated “I know it looks as if Blacks were bearing the brunt of discrimination. But I said it looks that way because Blacks were the only group whose numbers weren’t whittled down the way it was done to Asians, Natives, or Chicanos.”
I will repeat…..I will never agree that population plays as much of a role or even a role at all in the reason for a high level of discrimination against blacks.
I disagree with the idea or hint of idea that population size has anything to do with blacks bearing the brunt of discrimination.
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@Jefe
Thank you for the suggested reading.
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@Solitaire,
The same reason why they are colour-blind, why any history more than 30 years ago is the ancient past, and to show that they are no longer racist and what happened in the past either couldn’t be helped or didn’t happen in the first place.
I put up a link in comments from The Young Turks which was in rebuttal to Bill O’Reilly, but I found it to be just as bad as Bill O’Reilly. When I find it, I can copy the link here.
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@ Jefe
Gotcha. Thanks for explaining. I’m a bit slow on the uptake today.
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@Kiwi
I quoted what you said.
From your quote you are saying that the reasons that it looks as if blacks are getting the brunt of discrimination is because they have a higher population compared to other groups whose numbers have been whittled down? Is that or is that not what you are saying in that quote?
Whether you know it or not you are implying that the large number of blacks plays a role in why whites target them more. Your statement implies that it has to do with whites success in killing off the others as opposed to their lack of success killing off blacks. No?
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@Jefe
I have never once said that Asians have not lost their lives. What I’m saying is no other non-white group comes close to black people when it comes to fighting white racism.
There is no Asian-Black union. We have no friends That’s my point. That Peter Liang case just showed it.
I also looked at the Asian reaction on Twitter after the Mayweather – Pacquiao fight. They were calling Mayweather, what’s that word ? “Su nog” and every racial name under the sun.
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@Kiwi
Fighting against racism and fighting in a war are not necessarily the same thing.
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@Kiwi
I’m not sure what point you are trying to make here.
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@Kiwi
Those Asian badasses gave USA that work in Vietnam No doubt. Yeah – They had balls.
But how come the ones that come to the USA and Europe don’t have that ? They are a lot more conformist and quiet (In general)
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@THHR
It is because most of those that fought white racism (ie, Asians, Native Americans) are pretty much gone. They fought with their lives.
Of course, many blacks fought with their lives. But their numbers also increased during that entire time. Which means they were not targeted for genocide like the other groups. Regardless of how many blacks paid with their lives, it is a fraction of many of the other groups.
Part of the reason is because there is still a remnant from pre-Civil war days when blacks were largely a form of property, or source of free or cheap labour. They were worth more alive than dead. Not so with the other people.
I am the first one to rally against the idea of oppression olympics, so I will not do it here either. In fact, it is impossible to quantify a level of suffering for that which could be comparable between apples and oranges cases. But your claims have little to do with any actual fact.
Was that the reaction from Americans or foreigners?
I do know what “sunog” means in Tagalog. I agree that whether it was foreigners doing that or Americans, it would be a racist epithet.
Re: your statement to Kiwi
I know where some of that comes from. Those that stood up and resisted were usually killed. They are no longer here. Survivors learn not to make waves.
Actually, this actually supports the idea that historically white people tend to protect blacks more. They were less likely to be killed for their protests.
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@Solitaire,
Here is where I posted about the White Liberal Attitude re: Asian American history.
(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/05/20/the-model-minority-stereotype/#comment-250494)
If you have time, watch the clip from the Young Turks.
Some comments after that also discuss a little about the difference between liberal and Republican take on the Model Minority Stereotype.
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“Actually, this actually supports the idea that historically white people tend to protect blacks more. They were less likely to be killed for their protests.”
.
Wow… just _____ wow!
White people protect Blacks more than asians?
That is so incredible I’m utterly speechless!
“The idea” I come away with after reading the comments of jefe and kiwi is, who needs allies like these guys?
And WHAT BRINGS them to a blog that is primarily written for and about Black people? They’re certainly aren’t about promoting or strengthening the unity between Blacks and asians, building a more formidable coalition against white supremacy-racism!
Is theirs a grievance agenda, or is something more sinister (undercover/divisive) going on here?
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Kiwi
It is not an assumption that blacks are targeted more. It is a reality. Being targeted differently still allows for a comparison. That does not become obsolete because one is different from the other.
Blacks suffer police brutality and death now and have for a long time. Asian internment camp was years ago and really is hard to compare to an ongoing issue. There is not such a large hostile ongoing issue for Asians, which is why every conversation about this results in reaching several years back to say…”we have our death toll too.”
I never said the other groups were lesser. I just do not believe the low population, no voice etc. Is not a good enough reason to class they are discriminated against the same as blacks.
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@Fan…
Yeah that comment spoke volumes. If less likely means every time you protest, then wow.
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Kiwi
Slavery and lynching and police brutality and have to be driven from your home on the basis that a white person was in a bad mood etc. That is daily fresh. Blacks have memory of a lot and still faught. So do not use the ns excuse of “Asians were scared” explain their lack of involvement in protests today and their acceptance of model minority stereotype.
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Kiwi
No, it simply means that other groups issues are not the same.
I am sure middle eastern erstwhile and Muslims are, but in this country they are not.
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middle eastern and Muslims are, but in this country they are not.
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Fan,
Please review your US history.
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Kiwi
That is your opinion on why it was imposed and do not with fake idea that I implied a stereotype on the basis that I do not agree with your stance or logic on this matter.
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@Kiwi
No, because they don’t like in the US when the discuss is about actions in the US. I don’t doubt he has, but I also don’t have proof he has. What I have proof of is white American citizens murdering or attacking Muslims in the USA.
I never said Asians don’t have it bad. So Again do not try to impose a false model minority argument on me that I never made. I said several times it is not the same and it is not.
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@jefe
Reading history will not change that you used a common saying or threat that whites use regularly against blacks. It is usually worded that we can kill you anytime, which implies the reason they did not is because they “protected” us.
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Sharina,
If you need some figures to understand, we can do that.
Some 600,000 Africans were brought to the USA before the mid-1800s.
Some 370,000 Chinese were brought to the mainland USA (not including Hawaii) in the 1800s.
In 1940 there were 13 million blacks in the USA; there were 77,000 Chinese.
(In the 1870s-early 1900s, Chinese resisted and protested very actively. They are no longer here. Those that survived had learned NOT to engage in active protest. Their lives depended on it.)
In 1870, Chinese were 30% of the population in Idaho; in 1940, they were barely 0.1%.
In 1870, blacks in Alabama and Georgia each were about 44-45% of the population; in 1940, they were 35%.
Who is no longer here to tell the story of what happened? Who is still here?
If you need to look at Native Americans, maybe look at Montana, which still has American Indian reservations today. They are also, by and large, no longer here.
(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/11/20/racializing-montana/)
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@ Sharina
Are you noticing how Kiwi continually sets up straw-men and goalpost shifting with *Middle Eastern and Muslim* people when the discussion is about Asians?
@jefe
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I apologized that it was interpreted that I made a reference that sparks a nerve in people. But, actually, I was not actually stating that as an opinion, and I don’t believe it either, so I do not appreciate if you or anyone said that I said that.
All I said was what YOU said tended to support that statement, and that is an observation on what you did, not whether I believe in anything or not.
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Sharina,
I apologize that it was interpreted that I made a reference that sparks a nerve in people. But, although I made a reference, I was not actually stating that as an opinion, and I don’t believe it either, so I do not appreciate if you or anyone said that I said that.
All I said was what YOU said tended to support that statement, and that is an observation on what you did, not whether I believe in anything or not.
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@jefe
What does posting figures have to do with make a statement heavily used by racist whites against blacks? It is nice you have stats, but they are just used to excuse what was said.
“Who is no longer here to tell the story of what happened? Who is still here?”—I am not excusing or disagreeing that they are less, but being less is not an excuse to say blacks are more “protected”.
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@Sharina,
Even though I said
Having said that, they did continue to protest in other ways. They still continued to use habeus corpus to take legal challenges.
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Sharina,
I said that your statement tended to support that argument.
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@Jefe
“All I said was what YOU said tended to support that statement, and that is an observation on what you did, not whether I believe in anything or not.”—Could you quote what you are referring?
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@Jefe
Sorry we are typing on top of each other and I submit before I have read what you said. so ignore the last comment.
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@Kiwi
I never said Muslims are or are not, but I do know Muslims are all race of people. I also know that the Muslim tact is a deflection from the actual issue presented, which had nothing to do with them and was about Asians and Blacks. If you want to go on in another direction fine, but it will be alone.
“You said they are targeted less, which means they they don’t have it as bad.”—Quote where I said that versus you putting words in my mouth or bringing about a false conclusion based on what you want to believe.
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@Fan …
I have no problem with that usage and I just choose to ignore, but I take issue with being told I said something I did not.
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@Sharina,
That is a very intimidating statement and was historically used to whip blacks into submission. It is horrible. I agree.
That is why I find it curious why you repeatedly make claims and statements that tend to support the opposite of what you purport.
So, what is the difference between intimidating someone with threats of killing them, and simply just killing them? I am not going to debate which is worse, but both are bad. The latter is certainly more deadly.
Sharina, you know that I am very aware of these intimidation tactics that whites performed on blacks for decades and centuries. I have witnessed it over and over again countless times. Most of my father’s family lived in Mississippi and Alabama during Jim Crow, and my mother is from Alabama. I spent my childhood in Anacostia (DC), PG county, MD, and a large chunk of time in Alabama when George Wallace was governor. I have spent my whole life witnessing this and trying to make sense of it all.
But, what I am not sure about is how much you are aware of the killing that went on of people who are by and large no longer here.
If, say, 99.9% of the black population was driven out of Alabama and Georgia and any not willing to leave the country were simply killed, we would have no one left to talk about it, would we. Omit it from the history books and it never even happened. Is that somehow less worse than having survivors around to continue resisting it?
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@Sharina
same here.
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Sorry Kiwi,
I may respect Abagond, but I do not WORSHIP the things he does and says as you apparently do.
/no sarcasm
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@jefe
“That is why I find it curious why you repeatedly make claims and statements that tend to support the opposite of what you purport.”—Quote what was said by me that does that.
“If, say, 99.9% of the black population was driven out of Alabama and Georgia and any not willing to leave the country were simply killed, we would have no one left to talk about it, would we. Omit it from the history books and it never even happened. Is that somehow less worse than having survivors around to continue resisting it”–There would still be someone around to talk about it, even if the percentage is small. It will not make it worse. The worse part is not seeking out new means to fight the injustice. The worse part is sitting back and accepting a role while secretly saying we had it bad so we will not try to fight back anymore. T
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@Kiwi
And here you find a quote that is not even saying what you clearly stated I said. Which only supports the second half of my statement “you putting words in my mouth or bringing about a false conclusion based on what you want to believe.” Now that you have your false conclusion it is only natural for you to have the false idea that my thinking is model minority.
“I believe this thinking comes from the Model Minority stereotype. You call it reality. Well, I guess Black crime is a reality, right?”—Black crime is a reality. So is crime in general.
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@Kiwi
For starters blacks still fought then. Secondly they should have. Long as I have been on this blog my opinion does not change with race.
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@Sharina,
There has always been a group around to talk about it and continue fighting. If you read the google books link I shared above, you would have read.
If that is not fighting back, then I don’t know what is.
And Japanese Americans fought for redress for the WWII internment until the late 1980s. It was still definitely very active when I was in university. That struggle didn’t stop when WWII ended.
And I left out a piece from my theoretical example above. Let’s say that blacks had been nearly completely wiped out of the Deep South between the civil war and the mid 20th century. Then let’s say that a new group of immigrants came from Africa to the USA starting in the 1960s, and by the 1980s, they and their descendants outnumbered the surviving descendants of the original slaves. Imagine that the story of slavery and Jim Crow disappeared almost entirely from the history books that these African immigrants and their children were educated from.
How much would these late 20th century immigrants talk about what happened before they arrived, even when another genocide or mass imprisonment looms at any moment?
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@Kiwi
No, the quote doesn’t. It is clear on what part I said vs what you drew a conclusion of. You have to start separating what you think vs what is being said. IF you are not going to do that then you will repeatedly find yourself putting about a false argument that is not being made. A false idea that is not being presented.
“So crime isn’t a Black thing but being apolitical/apathetic is an Asian thing. I see.”—This is a clear straw man and you know it. Once again trying to put words in my mouth on something I never said.
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@jefe
“There has always been a group around to talk about it and continue fighting. If you read the google books link I shared above, you would have read.”—I believe that to be true as I know of groups today, so this is not an issue or dispute between us. Unless you are trying to say the past makes up for the lack of activism today.
“How much would these late 20th century immigrants talk about what happened before they arrived, even when another genocide or mass imprisonment looms at any moment?”—With those left, those stories will circulate. The new immigrants may not be able to relate, but I am sure with interaction with other blacks they will be aware of it. They may or may not choose to fight depending on if they are fighters, but I doubt they will simply just do nothing.
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@Kiwi
I already cut to the chase, but you took what you wanted and ran with it. Ignoring where I stated my position. You go and quote things you think support your stance, but have yet to quote or look for where I was clear on my position.
“You say Asians lack involvement in protests and have accepted the Model Minority stereotype.”—They don’t and I know avian activists groups now what are calling other Asians out on it. So stop acting as if it magically is not true. Also please stop trying so hard to find something to argue about. If you did not address when I said it several posts up then it is only now an issue when you want to find another arguing point.
“Does that mean Blacks commit crime disproportionately and have accepted the Black Criminal stereotype?”—Sure why not. I mean who argues with stats.
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Asian* that*
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“..please stop trying so hard to find something to argue about. If you did not address when I said it several posts up then it is only now an issue when you want to find another arguing point. ”
@ Sharina
Asking kiwi to stop trying to find something to argue about is about the same as asking a Zebra to stop having stripes!
“…an intelligent [belligerent] Asian man is just an ugly, nerdy ch#nk with a small penis.”
No wonder Asian women want nothing to do with this person, and would rather be with men of other races.
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@Kiwi
Sorry, but no. What you did was take a statement I made and came to your own conclusion. That is not a contradiction that is your straw man. I am not avoiding making clarification as I did up thread. Just because you chose to ignore it does not mean I have to go back and point it out o you. That is not being evasive, that it choosing not to go look.
“Sure why not. I mean who argues with anecdotes.”—No one really does, but if you can’t listen to an actual Asian activist then who can you listen to.
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Sad part is that you are pulling quotes from where I made the clarification and are only focusing on the part you want.
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““The idea” I come away with after reading the comments of jefe and kiwi is, who needs allies like these guys?
And WHAT BRINGS them to a blog that is primarily written for and about Black people? They’re certainly aren’t about promoting or strengthening the unity between Blacks and asians, building a more formidable coalition against white supremacy-racism!
Is theirs a grievance agenda, or is something more sinister (undercover/divisive) going on here?”
.
.
.
.
Super crickets!!!
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Sharina,
Since we largely agree on many things, can you restate what your position was? Was it about the Oppression olympics issue?
Was it related to
and my counterpoint was that the death toll on Asians who resisted and protested was very devastating. I don’t think it is right to say which or who had it worse OVERALL based solely on this factor alone, but as far as DEATH and population decimation in the USA, Asians were affected more deeply and intensely than blacks on this one single factor.
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@Kiwi
Watch your tone…Watch your tone. Watch it well. You hear me ? I’ll hack your godamm head head off !!!!
I don’t know why you speak to me or any black person like that when you know I’ll kill you for it.
You missed one – “The Violent Stereotype”
Na. In all seriousness. I’ve always wondered – Why your are here ? And before you go there. I’d say the same to whites as well. I’m not saying that you should not in any way. But it’s just a genuine inquisitive question.
I mean assuming your Asian. Right ? I mean. I don’t think it’s fair to sort of play victim on this part. When Abagond has done numerous post not just black racism but also racism to Asians to.
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@Kiwi
“I concluded from your statement that Blacks have it worse than Asians, to which you claimed I put words in your mouth.”—If YOU concluded it then you are putting words in my mouth.
“If my conclusion is false, then Asians have it just as bad as Blacks, right?”—Nope. Asians are the new whites. I will put up 4 links highlighting what I said.
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@jefe
I firmly believe that each have been discriminated in different ways, so I won’t say it is a matter of oppression Olympics at all. However, the manner of discrimination is a big factor that I seem to look at and I also seem to focus more so on today than past. This is likely where I steered off.
Today blacks are extremely targeted and I see Asians as being used in that target as well as Latinos and even African immigrants to an extent. For me the use of the “you are better than them” rhetoric creates a disdain of blacks from those other groups. Now this may move way off course to current discussion.
DEATH and population decimation is one thing and I will admit it was not something I thought of at first, but targeted to me puts focus on the everyday things that happen to blacks. If that makes sense.
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@Kiwi
Glad you enjoyed my sarcasm. As jumping to false conclusions tell me what I need to know about you.
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Hello THHR,
I first came here in 2011 and read through each and every post since 2006. He had indeed done a few posts on Asians in the USA and Asian American history even prior to 2011. Much of it was very good and insightful, but a fair amount of it was skewed or even outright wrong. I did point a few of them out. I noticed that he actually has quietly gone back and revised some of the wording in some of those old posts.
Around 2012, I sent him a list of about 200 Asian American topics to consider and he indeed has chosen a few to do posts on, plus some he chose himself. I have also contributed some myself. Still, it has only scratched the surface.
This is probably one of the reasons why we now have a fair amount of anti-Asian racism themed posts now. It is good for everyone, because the information is simply absent from our general education and not covered much in mainstream media.
We do not have many posts on black-Asian relations in the USA. And I don’t think a single post would do justice on that. That is such a vast topic. But that conversation and discussion is a big hole in US society and a big hole in this blog. More discussion is needed.
In fact, given the looming standoff in the South China sea and the impact that might have on Asian Americans should the conflict escalate, we need that conversation now more than ever.
Yellow Peril. Perpetual Foreigner. Model Minority Myth. Traitor/spy/enemy. Menace. Making up bogus information to fill in historical omissions. None of that is healthy.
We don’t have much on black-Native or Latino- black relations either (there are few related posts). There is nothing yet on Native-Asian relations or Latino-Asian relations that I can tell.
One thing that comes up over and over on this blog and again in this post is the issue of “Oppression Olympics” — who has it bad, who had it worst, etc. Much of this is not easily comparable. But we need to have that conversation and get through it so that we can get to other issues that affect us more. What is the point of debating who had it worst when many had it bad? There is a lot that blacks, Asians, Natives, Latinos, and even some whites could collaborate on to try to fix in the USA. For example, Hollywood whitewashing and control over the US historical narrative is something we all have to fight for. The establishment does not want that collaboration.
One reason why we have “Oppression Olympics” is because we all see experience and history from a certain point of view, and a lot of holes remain in our education. We need to fix these first before we can have a healthy conversation about it. This blog does help with that. and it is why I was attracted to it.
This blog has some content related to Muslims. We still don’t have much on Latino and Native American stuff. I spent a fair bit of time studying black US history and Asian US history, but less on Native and Latino. I am trying to catch up, esp. now on Native American.
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Sharina,
Thank you for sharing your perspective.
I agree that this is terrible. That is why I condemn the Model Minority stereotypes, or even racial pecking orders with a vengeance.
But replying with statements like “Blacks suffered more” or “Blacks are targeted more” does invoke “Oppression Olympics”. I don’t think Oppression Olympics is a healthy thing, esp. when arguments are used which are not exactly true.
yes, maybe that is because that is how you experience life in the USA on a daily basis. It is difficult to empathize with other experiences.
I personally witnessed all sorts of everyday things to blacks throughout my life in the USA (and I witnessed a lot). Even as a teenager, I would go to the DC public library for hours and pull every book I could find on Jim Crow, and on 19th and 20th century resistance, trying to make sense of it all. Still, I admit that witnessing stuff is not the same as experiencing oneself, and my empathy has its limits.
And I don’t expect you can empathize easily with being the target of Yellow Peril. Perhaps it is easier for you to empathize with people who express Yellow Peril to others. But that is an ever present danger looming TODAY. I am not sure if there is a way that you can understand this kind of terror.
Native Americans are the best example of peoples and cultures that were decimated, but without a new source of immigrants. It is very disheartening to try to learn about peoples for whom there are no longer any survivors.
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@jefe
“ut replying with statements like “Blacks suffered more” or “Blacks are targeted more” does invoke “Oppression Olympics”. —It may invoke it, but if those are the words needed to take a look at how the experiences are different and varied then that is what is needed.
” It is difficult to empathize with other experiences.”—It is not a matter of not empathizing with the experience of others because I do, but we all know that those experiences are different and to say they are the same is false.
For example, a black guy standing on a street corner and an Asian guy standing on a street corner will not invoke the same response from a police officer. That officer will target that black person first with the idea of a suspected drug deal. He may then go to that Asian, but it will likely not be for the same reason and may very well not have the same response. Where that officer would assault that black guy, he may just be pushy rude and force a proof of residency on that Asian guy.
Now stereotypes play a role here as well. Being a black brute is much more deadly than being a model minority and the stats support that based solely on the amount of black deaths and the common excuse of “he was resisting etc.”
Now you can look at this as oppression Olympics, but this is reality. It is not me saying Asians experience less, but I am saying that theirs is not the same as blacks.
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Hi Sharina,
You just contradicted yourself in the prior comment when you say
then say
So you are saying that blacks suffer more, but not that Asians experience less. It is very difficult to make out what you mean exactly.
If you are focusing on police treatment, then in the aggregate, the experience will be different. Not sure how you extend that to individuals or individual experiences.
When I was taking a friend (she was a foreign student from China studying in New York and also my college roommate’s first cousin) on a trip to DC, I took her to show her where I used to live as a child in Anacostia, There were cop cars a block down at the next intersection, and I turned in, but immediately pulled back and turned around to go down a different street. The police chased me and pulled me over, made me spread eagle out on the car and frisked me while another went through the entire car. The (white) policeman asked me if the girl was my sister, but then went off, calling me all sorts of nasty names, told me repeatedly that i was a f*kkin’ liar when I explained why I was there, told me not to f*kkin’ move (even to scratch my head) and held me and prevented me from moving (even though, admittedly, I was not beaten and kicked). It was a horrible experience for over 20 minutes in the cold,
I admit that I probably would not be targeted for that kind of treatment on a regular basis, but I have an idea what it feels like. It is not good.
I have had police ask me for my passport on the street, even though that is not required by US residents (many of whom do not even own a passport).
That is the wrong stereotype to compare. The more apt one is “black brute” to “yellow peril / Asian menace”. That is the one that does invoke the most violence and hostility from whites (and many blacks too).
What’s more, you are referring to people as a “model minority”. That is one of the most villainous tenets of white supremacy in the USA used to keep POC in their place and whites on top. If you are keen on fighting white supremacy, then you would reject that stereotype without question, not espouse it. You would never use it or invoke it and condemn it for the evil that it is.
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Trojan Pam,
Thank you so much for breaking down the mythology of Model Minority sterotype propped up by white supremacists and conservatives. In private and in action, white folks fear and despise Asians while publicly put a Black/Latino/Middle Eastern face to social problems in America and around the world. Just the recent racist remarks by Peter King shows how much contempt white America hold with regards to Asians and Asian Americans. Trump targeted Asians as well but that’s brushed over in the media.
Here are several news/blog links:
http://httpjournalsaolcomjenjer6steph.blogspot.com/2016/05/gop-congressman-said-racial-slur-on.html
http://us4.campaign-archive2.com/?u=192b498885b13ebfdbba38921&id=84dfa5f967
http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2015/03/former-housekeeping-director-accused-of-sex-for-hire
http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/2016/04/column-two-schools-same-exploits
https://stephaniegirl.wordpress.com/2015/04/07/women-in-state-move-ahead-but-remain-behind/
As for the news media hype regarding Asian women being the first choice by white men, that’s false because ain’t no white man is going to put women of color above white women. White women are still on the pedestal, get more deference, protection and attention from white men than any other group of women in America.
American media tells lies and it’s very important to counteract the media lies with truths.
SB
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I understand that this is primarily a black space and that one thing people do here is vent. I don’t mind when the venting is directed at my own race. There’s good reason for that.
But it’s disturbing to see vents about non-black minorities like the comment by TheHipHopRecords, which buys into stereotypes that have been used by white people to justify discrimination and murder.
It’s also true that many members of non-black minorities have bought into stereotypes about blacks. Although it may not be visible, there definitely are people in these communities working to educate their own folk about how harmful and divisive these stereotypes are.
I wish there was an easier way to talk about these issues. It’s really difficult work that dredges up a lot of pain on all sides.
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@jefe
It is not a contradiction as I have stated several times now that it is not the same. Even in what you quoted it states that not less, but not the same. How else does it need to be explained to give you an understanding of what I have said and continue to say. Frankly at this point it is you who wants to play the oppression Olympics by finding this better than mantra in what I am saying that is not even there. A thing or situation can not be the same and still not be a greater than less than aspect.
“If you are focusing on police treatment, then in the aggregate, the experience will be different.”—I am not focusing on police treatment it was simply an example of different situations. I am sure that other situations Asian’s may get worse treatment, but it was not to show who got worse. It was to show how they are different.
” The more apt one is “black brute” to “yellow peril / Asian menace”. That is the one that does invoke the most violence and hostility from whites (and many blacks too).”—Fine then using that still does not invoke the same responses and really it takes an overseas threat before whites or even blacks respond to the yellow/peril Asian menace stereotype. Hell from my experience alone I have ran into not one black person who holds to that stereotype at all.
“What’s more, you are referring to people as a “model minority”.—Quote where I referred to anyone as a model minority? And this will be the second time I have asked you to quote where I said something and you proceeded to take the conversation in a new direction instead of quoting it. I don’t even believe in the model minority, so why would I refer to anyone as it? This is not like how you clearly stated that black people were more protected and that was quoted as your words.
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@Solitaire
I agree with you, but there needs to be honesty on the fact that Asians are not really doing all that they can as a whole and blacks really are not trying to build that bridge. For those small groups of Asians that are trying they have a struggle of trying to connect with blacks, but it is also the struggle of knowing that few Asians will try at all.
There was an Asian commenter a while back that stated this fact before.
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@ Sharina
Oh, I defintely agree. There needs to be more reaching out from both sides.
One component that I think is a big part of the issue is Asian Americans haven’t even seen themselves as a cohesive group until relatively recently. What fighting and protesting and legal battles they did in the past were mostly by individual ethnic groups, not by an over-arching Asian American coalition. They haven’t had the same history of a cohesive identity. So they still have a lot of work just in building bridges with each other. This is also true to some degree with Native Americans, and I think also with Hispanics.
Another component is that, if I remember my stats correctly (and I’m sure Jefe will let me know if I’m wrong), immigration accounts for the majority of the growth in the Asian American population. I believe this has been the case since the immigration laws changed in 1965. So for 40 or 50 years, there’s been a continual wave of people entering the Asian American community who are unfamiliar with the history and struggles of that community. Even after they arrive, they aren’t being taught any of that history in their citizenship classes, and their kids aren’t being taught it in school. I know that I’ve heard similar complaints from African Americans about African immigrants: that they don’t understand the history or the issues or the nuances, that they can’t be counted on to stand with the larger African American community in civil rights struggles. Imagine what it would be like if immigration from African nations was so great that their numbers far surpassed native-born African Americans, that they were by far the largest sector of black America, and that the white media presented African immigrants as the face of black America and looked at all black issues and protest through that lens. Right now for Asian American activists, it isn’t just a matter of transmitting the history down to the next generation but also to the continual influx of newcomers.
And really the blame for all this division should rest squarely on the heads of white people. We’re the ones that came up with these stereotypes to begin with, and we’re the ones who continue to promulgate the stereotypes through mass media and in the schools.
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@Solitaire
I don’t want to put the blame solely on whites. I know this sounds weird, but at some points people of color have to acknowledge the role they play in believing that. Yes, whites created it and yes they keep the divide, but the question is why do people of color still buy into that divide even when exposed to otherwise?
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@Sharina and @Solitaire
You both made excellent points. Thank you both.
Issues of identity are complex and sometimes present us with contradictions.
Sharina, your observation, “why do people of color still buy into that divide even when exposed to otherwise?” points to the need for a better educational system that stresses critical thinking skills.
Of course, our country’s educational and media system seem to be moving in the opposite direction….
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@ Sharina
I do agree with that statement, too, although I’m afraid it will sound wrong coming from a white person. I know my spouse would agree with you as well.
“the question is why do people of color still buy into that divide even when exposed to otherwise?”
Do you have any thoughts or opinions as to why that may be?
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@Afrofem
Thank you and I agree that this countries education and media systems are moving in an opposite and damaging direction. Which is why it is important to start looking into a way to better educate our children to avoid the pitfalls. My kids attend public school, but are taught alternative lessons at home. Lessons that include, but are not limited to black and Latino achievers.
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Chinese people don’t look at black people as their brothers. Even Tiger Woods..
I’ll say this – Until you’ve visited Asia, it’s impossible to understand just how fascinated Asians are with whiteness.
We (Me and another black guy and two white guys) went to the Philippines about 8 years ago and straight at the Airport we walked past several kiosks advertising skin lightening cream for women.
Every single advertisement on the streets features white models, half-white models.
Anyway this white guy who I travelled with and a few others opened up an account on FilipinoCupid. I swear he would have gave Justin Bieber a run for his money for the amount of attention he got from women and this was just a regular Jimmy Kimmel looking white guy.
He started getting dozens of messages from Filipinas a day. Getting them to show up on dates was as simple as telling them he was going to be in their and asking what their number was.
One girl he met off of FilipinoCupid went batsh*t crazy when he first texted her. Five minutes after he contacted her, she tried calling him three times in a row, and when he didn’t pick up, she sent him another three texts.
When they finally met for coffee (I was there low key in the background) she was grovelling apologizing to him for being late, laughing at all of his bad jokes, and repeatedly reminding him that they should “spend as much time together” as they could before he returned to the home to the UK.
He suspected that some of the women he slept with were trying to get pregnant just so they could have a half-white baby. He asked a few girls what they’d do if he got them pregnant (abortion is illegal in the Philippines) and they all told him they’d raise the baby on their own without telling him.
Now keep in mind that these were all college-educated, middle-class women (Doctors, Teachers) he met via FilipinoCupid or gaming on the road
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@Solitaire
“Do you have any thoughts or opinions as to why that may be?”—I have always viewed it as a form of protection. Curry favor with whites to avoid their backlash or garner their favoritism, but maybe others can add better insights on why.
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@ TheHipHopRecords
And is that all you learned about the PI while you were there? Do you know anything about the history of white colonization in that country? Do you know about the wars Filipinos fought in resistance to that colonization? Have you read anything by Jose Rizal?
I’ll spare you my opinion of men from First World nations who go to Third World nations looking for sex.
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@ Sharina
Probably there are a number of reasons. You’ve made a good point, and so has Afrofem. Another potential reason that my spouse has talked about is how the white powers-that-be like to act as if there is a small pie for all minorities. Like: “Here’s X amount of money that we’ve always allocated for diversity programs, and now the Native American students have protested because there haven’t been any programming for their history and concerns, so we have to take some of this money away from the other minority groups to use for this new program.” Instead of, you know, allocating more funds so that all the old established programs can stay intact while introducing a new one. He feels there’s a prevalent belief among each minority group that they have to protect their sliver of pie from the others. That pie may not always be money; it could be amount of space given in history textbooks, political power, media presence, whatever. And he does believe that at least some white people in power are doing this on purpose to encourage division and hamper coalition-building.
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@Kiwi
I never said any of that was the use are sarcasm, but if you are going to use it to twist what a person say, then don’t be mad if it gets used right back.
“Blacks bear the brunt of racial discrimination but Blacks don’t have it worse. And that’s not a contradiction? Okay, whatever you say.”—It isn’t but then again jump to your own conclusion.
Key word in your definition “specified thing.”
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of sarcasm* says*
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@ TheHipHopRecords
Just to be really clear, my (unstated) opinion about sex tourism is not strictly a female thing. There are gay men who travel to Third World countries for sex as well. My opinion of them is the same.
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@Solitaire
Good point. I never thought about it like that. Who would not want to protect their interest.
I agree with your husband. I think some political powers do it on purpose with the idea of protecting status quo.
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@ TheHipHopRecords
The more I think about your last comment, the angrier I get. You’re busy bashing Asians on this thread for cozying up to whites, but you hang out with white guys whose idea of a good time is to go to a country that’s been exploited and impoverished by white colonialist oppressors to see how much p**tang they can get???
Why are you hanging around with white guys who have a colonialist racist mindset?
And who are you then to spout off about cozying up to whites?
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@ Kiwi
No, not the worse part but a great deal of it in their own right just as Asians do in their own right, but own right is not the same. This is my last comment to you. That is one sentence of the many things I have said in regards to my position and like all things you go all the way back (did not address it then) just to find an argument, then twist to what you already believe. You have drawn your conclusion and you expect me to sit and explain something to a mind made up? You do this every time and in the past I ignored it because I understood your point, but this is just ridiculous and overboard. You are purposely missing my point.
Don’t ever comment to me again.
Good day and good night.
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@ Sharina
The idea is not original to him (I honestly don’t know who first noticed it and wrote about it). But he says that he sees it in operation all the time. He thinks a lot of times it’s behind the Oppression Olympics: groups argue about who suffered more because whoever wins the Oppression Olympics gets a bigger slice of that pie the white man’s serving up.
That’s a big part of the problem: white people by and large still hold the pursestrings, still control the media, atill write the textbooks, still make up the largest group in Congress, etc. As long as white people are divvying up that pie, some of them are going to amuse themselves by making POC beg for the pie, fight each other for the pie, perform Oppression Olympics for the pie. There are two strategies to circumvent this: one is to be aware of what is happening and refuse to fight over the pie. The other is to gain control of the pie.
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“Cherry picking or goalpost shifting?”—Neither but we all know how you like to present a false analysis to vilify people.
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Kiwi, man, you need to learn to pick your battles.
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@ Kiwi
I stand by what I said. You can dismiss it if you like for whatever reason you like. I’m not disagreeing with your argument but your communication style. I’m saying there’s a point at which you’re alienating potential allies, not educating. Winning the battle while losing the war is an ineffective strategy.
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@ Kiwi
You’re spending all this energy fighting with Sharina, who has allied with you in the past, over definitions and wording. Meanwhile you’re pretty much ignoring TheHipHopRecords, whose idea of a vacation is to travel with a bunch of white racists to an impoverished Asian country to see how many g**ks they can bang.
Who’s worse, Kiwi? Who is deserving of all the venom you can dish out?
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@Solitaire
I agree and it is a very good point. While groups are fighting for that slice, they have to realize that they will never really get that slice.
I know for me I agree that all groups are oppressed. Even whites to some extent are oppressed by this system of white supremacy. The thing is that the oppression is different. If that makes sense.
“one is to be aware of what is happening and refuse to fight over the pie. The other is to gain control of the pie.”—This is why I am a strong believer in POC building their own to move away from reliance on whites. POC are stuck in mental chains of white supremacy and are afraid to even attempt to branch away from it.
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@ Kiwi
Personally I think some people are capable of growing and learning. That doesn’t mean they’re always going to be exactly in agreement with you. Sometimes people will be very resistant to an idea in an initial argument during the heat of the moment, but they go away and cool down and replay everything in their mind and think it over, and they start to change. Seeds planted start to grow.
I feel like lately you’ve been sowing salt and watering with a flamethrower. Maybe that’s just where you’re at right now, dealing with the anger over all the injustice. I don’t know.
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@Solitaire
Trust when I say he pulls that same line always. Get to a point of disagreeing with him and he will vilify and claim “I thought you were honest etc.”
Then in another thread he will bring in your name to use it to vilify another.
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@ Sharina
“I am a strong believer in POC building their own to move away from reliance on whites.”
Definitely a good long-term plan. Something to work for. I think the other strategy is useful for the here and now.
Like with the example I gave? What usually happens is all the groups start fighting over whose funds are going to get cut so the Native American History Month program can happen. But if those groups stand united and say, “No, you need to increase the amount of student fees that goes towards diversity programs to make this happen,” sometimes they get what they want. And if the adminstration refuses to give more money, then it’s much more effective if the groups can still keep a united front and sit down together and ensure that each group sacrifices an equal amount of their funds while simultaneously looking for new sources of funding in the short term to keep all the programs running, as well as continuing to keep pressuring the adminstration for more diversity funding.
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@ Sharina
@ Kiwi
I’ve said my say. I have had good discussions with you both in the past, and I’m not going to get involved in this disagreement anymore than what I’ve already said. It does hurt me to watch, but that’s my issue.
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@Kiwi
I know I said a prior comment was my last, but your issues need to be addressed.
“she said Asians experience less racism only to later slyly shift her argument to “Oh, I meant Asians experience racism differently”.”—-I never said that. Even in my first comment to you I said it was not the same. You are equating not the same and brunt with one being less. That is all YOU. YOU are your own problem. I am not your problem. You keep hammering on this idea that I am using the model minority, but all that is based on YOUR idea that I said Asian experience less racism.
Keep my name out of your mouth. I don’t want to be part of your continued circus of delusional ideas of “Asian hate” you think most if not all black commenters here have.
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@Solitaire
I am sorry for even involving you as that is not my intention, but I know how this goes and it goes as always with him. I should just ignore.
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@ Kiwi
Actually, because of cross-posting, I am going to say one more thing to reply to your last. I never said I had a problem with your tone. You can holler all you want as far as I’m concerned. There is quite a lot of injustice to holler and rant about. What I’m noticing is that (1) other people are having issues with your tone and (2) you’re not picking your battles. That’s all.
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Dude. All white people (IMO) have a colonialist racist mindset. You do realise this is a post about Asian people. Right ? So Asian people are going to get talked about. Right ?
Me ? Cozying up to whites ? You should get on your knees and kneel to me and beg me for forgiveness for saying that.
Even armies at war, have peace time to talk to each other. My individual interactions with whites means nothing as to how I see the broader picture and just for record I’ve probably had closer friendships with Asians than I have had whites.
You act like Asians are above criticism
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@Solitaire
That is a good idea, but is it selfish to want more than just a month? That could be an ultimate goal for more. Getting community leaders to sit down and make that a prime agenda would help. The continued support for funding to programs will break barriers must faster than the expected conversations of how to move forward. However, with the black community it is hard to find any leader that unites. A good deal of blacks want the leader that appeals to whites.
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@Sharina
“My kids attend public school, but are taught alternative lessons at home. Lessons that include, but are not limited to black and Latino achievers.”
Your kids are fortunate to have a parent as aware as you about the need for enriched educational experiences.
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@ Solitaire
“There are two strategies to circumvent this: one is to be aware of what is happening and refuse to fight over the pie. The other is to gain control of the pie.”
A third possible alternative is to learn how to bake your own pie. That way you are never dependent on others for a slice.
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@Solitaire,
You brought up 2 excellent points:
and
There is still not a strong sense of a pan-ethnic Asian American identity and we continuously have a new generation of immigrants and their children who know nothing about Asian American history, know little about the history of blacks and Native Americans in the USA and learn little, if any, through the educational process.
I think the first and most important thing that any activist must do is educate among the various ethnic groups and to each set of newcomers about Asian American history, the current and historical attitude of whites towards them, and about the history and current experience of blacks and Native Americans in the USA as well.
This is what has to be done and it is not being done. Meanwhile, Hollywood and the media fill in the gaps.
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I will call it a night but I will leave this questions here in response to this:
“This is what has to be done and it is not being done. ”
Why is it not being done? What factors are hindering this progress?
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@ TheHipHopRecords
“Me ? Cozying up to whites ? You should get on your knees and kneel to me and beg me for forgiveness for saying that.”
Not gonna happen. Not all white men think its fun to go to Third World nations to f*ck the natives. You’re picking the bottom scum of the racist colonial barrel to pal around with.
You never answered my main question: did you learn anything about the colonial history of the PI? Do you have any concept at all as to why that country got the way it is?
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@ Afrofem
Excellent point. There may be other effective strategies as well.
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@Sharina
This is indeed a good idea. Do you do this yourself, or do you arrange for external people to do this?
Maybe you could take one of those lessons that you give to your kids and do a post to share here?
As Solitaire mentioned, Asian Americans, by and large, do not usually think of themselves in pan-Asian ethnic terms and each new generation of Asians in the USA are not even aware of Asian American history or US society attitudes towards them. They are not aware of where attitudes towards Latinos and blacks comes from and they do not even think of the Native Americans at all. They need those alternative lessons, but no one is there to give them to them.
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@ Kiwi
I’m not going to disagree with that. My question is, does the tone argument apply when minorities are in discussion with each other? I tend to think of it more as a way that majority people shut down minorities. I’m sure one minority can also use it to shut down another. But because you are talking to other people who also suffer from white oppression and who may find it very painful to consider the possibility that they carry racial stereotypes, perhaps tone should be a consideration? That is, if you want to have effective communication. And I mean this in all directions, not singling out blacks but saying Native people can hold racial prejudices, Asians can, Hispanics can. Because there is so much pain here, there is so much of a very human tendency to want to deny and ignore, that it may be better to tread carefully and with compassion and understanding. And especially to reach out to anyone you find on the other side of that divide who extends that same carefulness, compassion, and understanding.
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@ Sharina
“That is a good idea, but is it selfish to want more than just a month?”
No, not selfish at all. Ideally all of this should be integrated seamlessly and thoroughly into the curriculum, not segregated into individual months. It’s been quite the battle just to get those months, but it doesn’t have to stop there.
“However, with the black community it is hard to find any leader that unites. A good deal of blacks want the leader that appeals to whites.”
Now imagine how this difficulty increases with a multiracial group trying to pick a mutually agreeable leader! But it needs to be done and there are people out there doing it. I just happen to live with one, so it’s more visible to me.
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@ Jefe
“They need those alternative lessons, but no one is there to give them to them.”
And I think there is a conception that Asians tend to live together or at least near each other. Chinatown, Little Saigon, and all that. That it would be easy for this information to be taught to the newcomers.
But there are immigrants who get plopped down in tiny all-white communities in Minnesota or Idaho or Tennessee, whether it’s because they’re refugees being sponsored by a local church or physicians who have agreed to work in an underserved rural community in exchange for financial aid. They may be the only Asians for miles around, maybe the only minorities. There’s not any established Asian American community nearby to teach them and their children about the history.
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@ TheHipHopRecords
“You do realise this is a post about Asian people. Right ?”
Nope. It’s a post about an argument white people make using stereotypes about Asians.
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@ Kiwi,
Again, I don’t disagree with anything you’re saying, and I’m familiar with the dynamic you’re talking about. But I think this goes back to the pie metaphor I used earlier. There’s a tendency–a very understandable tendency–for black people to feel that if they make room at the table for other minorities, they’re going to have to give up some of their pie, that very tiny pie that they’ve fought so hard and long for, that pie that is so small it really isn’t enough for themselves. It’s very easy for everyone trying to crowd around at that table to forget who it is that decided the tiny pie is all they get, to elbow and punch each other instead of rising as one, walking to the counter, grabbing the white restaurant owner, and demanding a larger pie that will feed everyone satisfactorily.
Yelling at white people often is a wake-up call that they need. But all minorities have been yelled at by white people, and stepped on, and ordered around, and it gets so, so tiring. You may find better results if you modulate your tone in respect of that. Be gentle with each other. I know you’re going to say that you don’t always get that type of treatment here, but there are ways to point that out without responding in kind. There are some people you may have to write off because they never will give you that good treatment, but you don’t have to fight them tooth and nail all the time. Ignore them. Concentrate on those who treat you decently. Work on helping each other grow, strengthening each other for the real fight.
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@ Kiwi
“For Blacks it was slavery whereas for the others, it was war and genocide.”
Right, but don’t forget there was massive death on the Middle Passage and cultural genocide as blacks were forced to lose their African languages, etc. Which may be why some people reacted very strongly to Jefe’s statement.
I do think there’s a valid point to be made of the connection between population numbers and involvement in movements for civil rights. But this is the type of pain that I’ve been talking about throughout this thread. There is so much pain. Black people are going to very understandably feel pain over leaving out the genocide of the Middle Passage. You and Jefe very understandably feel pain over the erasure of the genocide against Chinese Americans in the West. It helps to talk more gently, to acknowledge that pain and that loss. It isn’t the same as tone with white people. We’re the effing oppressors, we need to learn how it feels to get our feelings hurt.
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@ Kiwi
“It is also an argument Black people make.”
It is an argument white people invented.
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@ Kiwi
“But you will find that I retaliate and merely mimic other people’s behavior toward me. If I came across as disrespectful, you will have to forgive me for being a copycat.”
I’ve noticed you’ve been copycatting and turning other people’s phrasing back around on them. You did that frequently in the Peter Liang thread. But I think a lot of people didn’t notice, or if they did, it didn’t matter to them because they were too angry about what you said, or what they thought you said. Which in my book makes it an uneffective mode of communication if your goal is to make change instead of just pIssing people off. Now that is to some degree on them, but it is also on you for not communicating in a way that people would be receptive to. In my opinion, it comes back to picking your battles and choosing the best tools. DId you want to pIss people off? Or did you want to explain and convince?
And again I think this could be a great technique to use on a majority-white forum, but not so much here.
“If someone applies a racial stereotype and denies having done so even after having it kindly pointed out, that means they were never an ally to begin with.”
See, that’s taking it to a greater extreme than I meant. Of course, that’s for you to decide; I’m not going to dictate where your cut-off line is. But it is d@mn hard to grapple with internal bias; we all want to deny it. Kiwi, you would not have recognized me at 21. To use an unrelated example, I held all sorts of stereotypical beliefs and ideas about LGBT people. I wasn’t virulently homophobic, but I said things and used words that it now makes me cringe to think about. One of my friends started to challenge me on my language, and it took her repeated attempts, very patient explanations and reasoning, over and over again, to get me to rethink my stance and to stop saying those horrible homophobic slurs. She could have just given up on me after the first time I insisted, “But I don’t mean it that way, it just means the same as loser or jerk or@sshole.” She could have decided I wasn’t an ally and was never going to be an ally and written me off. She didn’t, and that made all the difference.
“As of 2016, in the US, yes, White people are the biggest oppressors. But to say that people of color themselves do not have the capability or potential to oppress is a condescending view.”
Everyone has the capability or potential to oppress. Everyone has the capablity or potential to choose to do better. Everyone has the capability or potential to work towards ending all oppression.
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People might have thought that was a joke, but when I brought one of my HK friends to his first USA trip, before and during the trip he talked incessantly of those creepy white serial killers. When we were in poor black neighborhoods, he did not feel alarmed at all, but each time we pulled into a gas station, he started feeling nervous, saying we have to watch out as those serial killers hide out at gas stations, and might abduct you or try to kill you.
Me? I am most concerned about the police.
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@ Kiwi
I just wrote a long reply and the internet seems to have eaten it. On the other hand, it may have gone into moderation. I was getting ready to try to rewrite it, but now I think it may very well have gone into moderation, so I’ll hold off for now.
“And then what? Historically, as soon as the incumbent oppressor falls from power, another rises to take his place. As soon as the White owner gets removed, a frenzy will break out as the Asian, the Black, and whoever else scramble to take his place and have the chance to screw over the others, just like the White one did.”
And then what? WE WORK TO BREAK THE CYCLE. It’s the only thing we can do. The cycle has to end.
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@ Kiwi
I’m shutting down for the night. Keep an eye out for that post. If it went into moderation, it may not show up until the morning when Abagond sees it. If not, when I get up tomorrow I will try to reconstruct it.
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@ Kiwi
Oops, on the other hand, it just showed up. Really glad I don’t have to rewrite all that.
Will talk more with you tomorrow.
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@Solitaire,
I appreciate all the attempts you are making to mitigate the atmosphere.
BUT,
When you say things like this, it also creates a very bad feeling with me, as if you are adding fuel to the Oppression Olympics fire:
After slavery was abolished, many of the ships that were used ship Africans around the world were used to ship Asian coolies in the same conditions. Many, if not the majority, died on those “slave ships”. Looking at the numbers, there were 4-5 times as many Asian coolies shipped around the world as Africans, implying that many many more Asians died on those trips than Africans.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/06/02/coolies/
I am the first one to condemn the Oppression Olympics bandwagon as I think it was all terrible, but please do not add fuel to this divisive fire by dividing up blacks and Asians in this way. This is an opportunity to build bridges, not burn them.
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Getting back to the original post, I know the following was supposed to be satire, but actually, I think it is true.
I do think that if they made a film about an Asian hero whipping the ass of bad white people and an Asian saviour coming to save the innocent white victims (or even black victims) that it would be a super hit in Asia. if Hollywood producers really wanted to make money, this would definitely sell.
A lot of Hollywood movies have added Mandarin dialogue to their films in recent years, but it is always in the context of Chinese helping (white) Americans, and sometimes in the context of the white hero getting the Asian girl. I cannot help but believe that those choices are governed more by the need not to offend white sensibilities rather than the need to make money in overseas markets.
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@THHR
That is EXACTLY what you do.
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@Solitaire
2 things:
1. Please don’t forget that that there was even more massive death on the Transpacific and TransIndian passage, as I mentioned above.
2. I never actually made that statement. I said that other people’s statements tend to support that argument.
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@Solitaire,
I am sure you realize that is simply a concept that is not true in reality. It is anything but easy.
What is your suggestion to this problem (and also to the problem of being plopped down in those regions of the country which do not have many Asians)? Multilingual online support? Do we need more resources on Asian American history in Asian languages and possibly also in Spanish?
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@ Jefe
I’m very sorry, on both accounts.
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@Kiwi
What is disgusting is the fact that you have for several post now done nothing more than put words in quotes and attribute them to me. And once again decided to pull a new quote you want to claim means something that it clearly does not. You have been trying so hard to find quotes that say something I did not to the point where you are just creating quotes.
You really are just showing yourself to be a clear liar with little to no dignity. Yet so desperate for my attention. Even Gro jo have better tact.
@Abagond
What is my limits on having your relative Asian racist no longer contact me?
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@Jefe
“Do you do this yourself, or do you arrange for external people to do this?”—This is mainly done on my own, but I have been reaching out to our Hispanic relatives for more input lately. Mainly because of scheduling.
“Maybe you could take one of those lessons that you give to your kids and do a post to share here?”—I could, but I must admit I am very self-conscious about my writing ability.
I don’t think no one is, but rather they may not be interested in listening. When my friend, who I will refer to as N, moved to the US from the Philippines. For the longest she lived with other Filipinos before her and her family had their own. She later moved her sister in. She helped prepare her sister for what to expect etc. This was similar with my father-in-law who moved and lived with family in the US. They talk and learn this way. This is why it is not entirely true to hammer the idea of they don’t have, when that aspect is not entirely true. They have, but they may also choose to find their own way or not listen.
This is why that less population argument does not hold because Native Americans have less population than Asians and still tell their stories. They still are strong activists. Granted they are not having an influx of Native immigrants coming in, but this does not mean all is lost.
Not to nitpick, but this is what you actually said:
Actually, this actually supports the idea that historically white people tend to protect blacks more. They were less likely to be killed for their protests.
This does not seem to indicate the other people arguments supporting this as you keep claiming. This indicates that the idea is supported by the less deaths of black people. If the interpretation is wrong cool, but it does not look that way.
” am the first one to condemn the Oppression Olympics bandwagon as I think it was all terrible, but please do not add fuel to this divisive fire by dividing up blacks and Asians in this way..”—And the first to engage in it when convenient, so it is a bit unfair to tell solitaire that it creates a divide when you do it.You are using the amount of death as a crunch to say it was worse, but you are not looking at the many aspects of the situations. They were different.
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Kiwi Lie exposed
“For the record, Sharina was rude first. Scroll up.”
This is where the snide remarks started based on a non-acceptance of what was said about population:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/the-asian-supremacy-argument/#comment-315433
Me: “No. I will agree when someone can show me a situation or story etc. But I will never agree that population plays as much of a role or even a role at all in the reason for a high level of discrimination against blacks.”
Me: No, because they don’t like in the US when the discuss is about actions in the US. I don’t doubt he has, but I also don’t have proof he has. What I have proof of is white American citizens murdering or attacking Muslims in the USA.
I never said Asians don’t have it bad. So Again do not try to impose a false model minority argument on me that I never made. I said several times it is not the same and it is not.
The aggression increases: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/the-asian-supremacy-argument/#comment-315491
Me: I never said Muslims are or are not, but I do know Muslims are all race of people. I also know that the Muslim tact is a deflection from the actual issue presented, which had nothing to do with them and was about Asians and Blacks. If you want to go on in another direction fine, but it will be alone.
“You said they are targeted less, which means they they don’t have it as bad.”—Quote where I said that versus you putting words in my mouth or bringing about a false conclusion based on what you want to believe.
More aggressive and imposing:https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/the-asian-supremacy-argument/#comment-315512
Me:No, the quote doesn’t. It is clear on what part I said vs what you drew a conclusion of. You have to start separating what you think vs what is being said. IF you are not going to do that then you will repeatedly find yourself putting about a false argument that is not being made. A false idea that is not being presented.
“So crime isn’t a Black thing but being apolitical/apathetic is an Asian thing. I see.”—This is a clear straw man and you know it. Once again trying to put words in my mouth on something I never said.
More aggressive:https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/the-asian-supremacy-argument/#comment-315516
The list goes on as he increases in aggression and my responses stay the very same.
I do not wish to engage, but I surely am not going to allow you to make up a lie so you can become the victim of do unto others as they do unto you. I was never was rude as can be seen in this exchange. You became hostile because it was not your way. If this was one time thing then it would garner a benefit of the doubt, but you always do this.I watched you do it with Jefe, Anne, Linda, Fan…, Afrofem, pumpkin, villagewriter, and the list goes on. You become nasty rude and aggressive and then turn around and magically talk about trust and believing people were honest etc. You are a damaged and toxic person. I get that your experiences may have made you that way, but you have to address your issue.
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The exchange between mainly Sharina on the one side and Kiwi + Jefe on the other side… hum… and Solitaire on the third side, is interesting and I tried to follow it in its entirety.
There are many sides in the discussion but I want to concentrate only in one that, despite been mentioned en passant at first, became quickly one of the main topics of it. And it is: Who has it worse in a White dominated society like the USA, Blacks or Asians?
In my humble opinion Blacks have it worse than other non-Whites when it comes to racism in White dominated societies:
1. This is why people speak about a color-hierarchy and not about a binary system with Whites in one position and everybody else in another position. The system has more than two grades and Blacks are positioned at the bottom;
2. One simple test could show that most people are aware of the above mentioned hierarchy; try to ask anybody – an Asian person, for example – what he/she would think about the prospect of swapping his/her current status as an Asian and to assume the status of a Black person? Would he/she be happy with it or…not? I am almost sure that most would answer this question with a no, no way! and that would show that they know that their current status is better than that of Blacks.
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@munubantu,
Did you ask any black person if they wanted to switch current status with an Asian, esp. a male? what kind of answers did you get from that?
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I dont think coolies = transatlantic slavery but its interesting how sharecropping, company towns, etc like warfare became economic along with the industrial revolution.
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The following is from Fight the Tower facebook page regarding the denial of tenure to Cynthia Wu:
“After receiving unanimous support from her department of English, Dartmouth still denied her tenure. Dartmouth has one of the whitest percentage of faculty in the US.
‘Cynthia Wu, an associate professor of transnational studies specializing in Asian American studies at the State University of New York at Buffalo, wrote to Hanlon to ask him to reconsider the tenure denial, saying, “for many of us in the field of Asian American studies, this is not an individual matter. It is systemic.” In 12 years as a professor, she wrote, “I have witnessed the dismantling of Asian American studies through institutional refusals to retain faculty who teach and do research in this area. … I lament that so many specialists in Asian American studies have fallen through the cracks because of these institutional failures.” One cause of such failures, she wrote, is that faculty members who specialize in fields that foreground race, gender and sexuality often have above-average teaching and service workloads. “Students disproportionately seek us out for mentoring,” Wu wrote. “We are disproportionately called upon to serve on committees pertaining to diversity initiatives. This increased workload undoubtedly impacts our ability to spend as much time on our research as our peers.” Another reason is that research on race, gender and sexuality “has less cultural capital,” Wu said. “To put it bluntly, it is less respected. It also tends to be interdisciplinary and, therefore, misunderstood in an academy that fiercely defends its disciplinary boundaries despite lip service to the contrary…'”
What this tells us that despite the positioning of Asians over other peoples of Color in the white supremacist system, the powers that be do not treat Asians as equals.
SB
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@ Sharina
“I don’t think no one is, but rather they may not be interested in listening. When my friend, who I will refer to as N, moved to the US from the Philippines. For the longest she lived with other Filipinos before her and her family had their own. She later moved her sister in. She helped prepare her sister for what to expect etc.”
I understand your point, but from what I’ve seen, new immigrants stay with other immigrants, not 2nd or 3rd or 4th generation Asian Americans. The people the new immigrants move in with may have been here longer, and they may be able to pass on all sorts of information about adjusting to daily life in the U.S., but they generally do not have a strong knowledge of the history of Asian Americans, the history of African Americans and other U.S. minority groups, race relations, and the civil rights struggle.
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@munubantu
Thank you for cutting through bloated rhetoric and multiple specious statements with a simple test.
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@ Jefe
“I am sure you realize that is simply a concept that is not true in reality. It is anything but easy.”
Yes, I thought I had implied as much in my wording, but I see now it wasn’t written as clearly as it could have been. You would know more about Chinatowns, etc., than I do, so I’m a little hesitant to speak on that. During the time I lived in California, it seemed although there were some places designated as Little Saigon, Little Manila, etc., it was very obvious that most Asian Americans lived elsewhere, scattered throughout many different neighborhoods. Some of the Chinatown-type areas weren’t even residential but more commercial and/or touristy.
“What is your suggestion to this problem (and also to the problem of being plopped down in those regions of the country which do not have many Asians)? Multilingual online support? Do we need more resources on Asian American history in Asian languages and possibly also in Spanish?”
That is a real stumper. Online resources would be a great way to provide information to those in isolated white-majority areas. Material written in home languages would be beneficial as it is more comfortable to access complex information in one’s first language regardless of fluency level in a second language. (Maybe programming on Asian-language TV as well, but that would cost more; there are more logistical hurdles to jump to make that happen.) But once that material is formulated, how do you then spread awareness that this material is available on the interent? How do you spark interest in that material?
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@Solitaire
“I understand your point, but from what I’ve seen, new immigrants stay with other immigrants, not 2nd or 3rd or 4th generation Asian Americans.”— I agree that generally that is the case, but it can and does happen otherwise.
I will go into detail a bit later, but I am curious on further aspects of it and if it can be lumped into simply not knowing the history and not having someone to tell it or…… can it also be a matter of not interested in it?
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Sharina,
The 2nd, 3rd, 4th generation ones are telling the stories. Have you been to any of the Japanese or Chinese American history or heritage museums? I have been to the Chinese American history museums in New York and San Francisco more than once. There is now a Delta Chinese history and culture museum in Cleveland, Mississippi.
Look up Mark Him Lai. He is one of the most famous Chinese American historians in SF who passed away a few years ago.
Also John Jung, who has actually posted comments on this very blog has amassed a terrific amount of information and resources. I consulted his websites do, and I have been in contact with him.
I also am personally connected to the original establish of APA Heritage month and met Congressman Horton, who introduced the bill into Congress
I also have been to both National museums of the American Indian in DC and NY and in my last trip to the USA I traveled all around Southern Maryland to find out what I could about the Piscataway Indians and met with tribal leader of one of the main bands. I happened to go to High School with her. I attended part of the United National Indian Tribal Youth conference last year. I also have been reading books, trying to learn as much as I can. I will spend time in the Vine Deloria, Jr library on my next trip to the USA.
So, I have been devoting a lifetime to this, reading and telling these kinds of stories. I support it with all my heart.
But if I try to broach this subject with recent immigrants, they will be tone deaf.
Your comparison between Native American and Asian American (with the possible exception of Japanese Americans) is wrong. As Solitaire explained to you, the new Asian immigrants do not get their information about Asian American history and culture or about black and Native American history and culture from, say, 4th generation Asian American “elders”. Immigrants who have been in the USA for 20 years may never have heard of the Chinese Exclusion Act or the Japanese American Internment or even Vincent Chin. They may not know about Jim Crow or about which people lived in their neighborhood before white people.
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@stephaniegirl,
Does Dartmouth have a tenured professor in black or African American studies?
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@Sharina,
OK, here goes.
When you quoted “Actually, this actually supports the idea that historically white people tend to protect blacks more. They were less likely to be killed for their protests.”
I never stated that white people tend to protect blacks more, I stated that statements by others, including yours (eg, your belief that Asians are more conformist and quiet), supported that idea. I definitely do not personally believe that whites necessarily tend to protect blacks more. I did not make that statement.
The second sentence is true however. Both Native Americans and Asians were more likely to be killed for their protests (at least in relative terms). It should be common knowledge, or something very easy to look up, but in case you cannot find the information, let me know. I already recommended a good book to you.
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On THIS thread I am enforcing a 24-hour moratorium on Kiwi and Sharina saying anything about the other and the other’s comments. In the meantime they are free to interact with other commenters.
Whatever value their interchange had at first, it has long since become tedious and confusing and overly personalized.
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To me this thread has been a textbook illustration of:
1. What a dead end Oppression Olympics are.
2. How the model minority stereotype divides Black and Asian Americans.
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@ Sharina
“can it also be a matter of not interested in it?”
It can be. I don’t want to make a blanket statement for all Asian immigrants, but there certainly is an issue of convincing an immigrant that it is essential information to learn when s/he has so much else to deal with. Jefe touched on that in his comment above about being tone deaf.
But there’s also the aspect of trying to teaching this history to their kids, the 1.5ers and the native-born children of immigrants. A lot of them don’t encounter Asian American history until college, many not even then.
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@ Kiwi
“Even my school does it. In the cafeteria, we have a gigantic mural on the wall of numerous famous Black historical figures… but none from any other race. And this is at a school that is majority Asian! In this zealous display of art that intended to give a voice to an underrepresented minority, they forgot the other more prominent minority right in front of them. Why?”
Well, you can ask “why” here, or you can do something about it. Have you said to anyone at your university in a position to do anything about it: “Hey, this mural is great, but we Asian American students would also like a mural representing our struggles and our leaders.” Do you know whether there are any student groups already involved in trying to make this happen? Are you active in any Asian American and/or multicultural student groups that advocate for diversity issues?
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Part of the model minority stereotype is that Asian Americans are apolitical. That is no accident. The stereotype was born in 1966 in the pages of the New York Times as an argument AGAINST the civil rights movement.
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@Jefe
“Have you been to any of the Japanese or Chinese American history or heritage museums?”—I have not and this is not to say I have a lack of interest. I generally do not go to museums period due to a belief that they sugar coat the real struggles.
“Your comparison between Native American and Asian American (with the possible exception of Japanese Americans) is wrong.”—If that is wrong then I would equally say using population as a means to explain away discrimination or lack of information is also wrong.
“As Solitaire explained to you”—I did not disagree with her, but that is not always the case either. Are you saying there are not some immigrants who come here to stay with 2nd, 3rd, or even 4th generation relatives?
This is the statement by theHipHopRecords that prompted that statement correct? “are a lot more conformist and quiet (In general)”
You stated “yours (eg, your belief that Asians are more conformist and quiet”—This is not my belief and a provided link shows it as his, but I have spoken on occasions about Asian activists and I have shared an issue they have shared, which is a lack of Asian involvement. https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/the-asian-supremacy-argument/#comment-315467
None the less, nothing in that or anything said by others supports the idea of “Actually, this actually supports the idea that historically white people tend to protect blacks more. They were less likely to be killed for their protests.” However, I accept your explanation of what you meant by it.
“I already recommended a good book to you.”–Yes, I ordered it yesterday. It should arrive Monday.
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@ Abagond
“Part of the model minority stereotype is that Asian Americans are apolitical. That is no accident. The stereotype was born in 1966 in the pages of the New York Times as an argument AGAINST the civil rights movement.”
So for the white author(s) of the 1966 article to make that argument, they had to ignore any historical evidence that Asian Americans had been politically involved and had fought against racism and for civil rights. Their argument wouldn’t have held if they had acknowledged that history. Is that correct, or am I misreading you?
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@Jefe
Right. So I’m getting a white man accusing me of being an Uncle Tom. I don’t even know where to begin with that one (lol)
I don’t hate white people. I don’t hate Asians. The same way I don’t hate Tigers but I understand a Tigers nature. Tigers kill. It’s not personal. It’s just their nature.
I understand that whites and Asians are racist towards black people to the point were it’s almost become natural.
And even though Asians are racist towards blacks people, I’m fully aware that they learnt from the best…..white people.
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@ Solitaire,
Maybe you can help with some insight here.
I also find it tiresome that Kiwi often seems to find excuses to pick fights here, focusing on catching people on words and spewing it back at them. Sometimes he jumps to sideline arguments and tries to argue those. I am not sure why. Or maybe the threshold for him is just that low. I agree that it is not that helpful for intergroup (or even interpersonal) communication and relations.
But, gleaning through the chaff, there is one point that he makes that I admit I have felt and noticed my entire life.
I have witnessed horrible treatment of blacks since my early childhood and have been at the crossroads of the conflict between black and white for as long as I can remember. I have shared that I grew up in Anacostia, DC and PG county, MD and every single neighborhood I ever lived in growing up became hyperblack, and it is where I spend my time when I go back to the USA. I can also remember being in Alabama during the reign of Gov. George Wallace. It was enough to move me to realize that the encyclopedias and textbooks we used in school and the rhetoric we heard in a white church were screwed up and I made a serious effort to go find out what happened, as I know I could not rely on the media or the schoolbooks. And I stopped going to white churches.
But I also witnessed many times when blacks and whites appeared to team up with each other to oppress Asians, or I would see blacks seemingly embrace the stereotypes that whites had about Asians that they used to keep the white supremacy system intact. They would repeat the very same tropes or behaviours that whites used to oppress and control Asians. Later, when I paid enough attention to notice, I saw the same things being done to Native Americans and Latinos too. This is one reason that I expressed a few years ago that sometimes, to me, whites and blacks often seem more alike each other, embracing a common mainstream Anglo culture, as well as the tenets and tropes of white supremacy. Some blacks (not all) will rant about white oppression (and rightfully so) while simultaneously embracing white supremacy and racism against other groups, often using white invented stereotypes. I couldn’t figure out why it was so pervasive, except that they must too possess a colonized mind and have no idea what they are doing. Another reason is the very binary viewpoint of race in America that many hold.
I noticed you used the term “Cozying up to white people”, but, as that might sound offensive to some people. Maybe I could say it is accepting, embracing, assimilating the very racist tropes that whites use to maintain White Supremacy.
I admit that some Asians do the same thing and I hate it. I also have seen and heard it over and over again. Just last year, in HK no less, I was at a rooftop party of a Chinese Canadian (from Vancouver) who just stated that American blacks were better off in the USA than Africa and they should be thankful they were in the USA (ie, it was unreasonable that they should be ungrateful). I immediately responded that what he said was horrible and wrong on so many levels and he should be happy that no black person was present at his party or he might get his head chopped off. I asked him if he had ever actually learned anything about African American history. Unfortunately, I had to stop there as it was his place and he was the host, but I avoided talking to him the rest of the evening.
Now, you recognized that the commenter above was performing behaviour reflective of “cozying up to white people” and performing the same racist behaviour that white people do, while denying it in the same breath. But, believe, me, he is not the worst offender. Several dozen commenters have done the same thing or worse on this blog and deny it in the same breath. Even Abagond used to do it from time to time, but admittedly, he has improved considerably after being called out on it. Besides this, I have seen it thousands and thousands of times in real life.
Chris Rock did it at the Oscars. Is it just panning to white audiences or does he actually believe the white racist tropes that he was spewing out?
Since your husband has worked in interracial and interethnic relations at many institutions and in the community, I am sure he has encountered it many times. Asians do it to blacks and Latinos, Blacks do it to Asians and Native Americans and Latinos do it too. How does he handle it? Has he ever been able to make any progress on it? Frankly, besides calling people out on it, or trying to find some data or research to attempt to educate people, I am at a loss at what to do.
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@Solitaire,
I watched on youtube a show that was presented in a 5-part series (actually part of even a larger series on the Chinese diaspora around the world) on the history of Chinese in the US and Canada — in Cantonese. Of course, it focused on only certain topics, and left out a lot, eg, on Chinese-Black relations and it stopped with Vincent Chin. It did talk a little bit about Chinese-First Nations relations in British Columbia. There was very little on the post 60s brain drain. Anyhow, it was still very good and it was entirely in Cantonese.
I imagine that there have been documentaries in Japan about the Japanese diaspora (in USA, Brazil, Peru, etc.) and maybe in other countries as well. I don’t see why they could not be shown in the USA.
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@ gro jo
Comment deleted for making personal remarks about another commenter’s sex life.
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Abagond, are you considering doing a post on Oppression Olympics? It has been around at least as long as the Model Minority Stereotype, but you have already done a post on the latter.
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@ Jefe
Wow! You read my mind!
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@Solitaire
Have you read either the New York Times magazine article (re: Japanese Americans) or the US News and World Report article (re: Chinese and Japanese Americans, but mostly the former). I believe the first one was in January and the second one in October.
I don’t think that they mentioned too much about their resistance. They mentioned that they are not in the streets protesting for their rights or rioting or destroying property. Under the Teflon view of history, all that resistance was ANCIENT HISTORY, if it even happened in the first place.
I used to have an online link to the articles, but I think they became broken. I believe that I copied the documents somewhere.
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Abagond,
Your hypocrisy, is noted.
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@ Jefe
“Since your husband has worked in interracial and interethnic relations at many institutions and in the community, I am sure he has encountered it many times.”
Yes. It has happened to him, he’s seen it happen to others, he’s mediated between parties where neither race is white or Asian.
“Asians do it to blacks and Latinos, Blacks do it to Asians and Native Americans and Latinos do it too.”
Everyone does it to everyone. Then throw LGBT, women, religious minorities, and people with disabilities into the mix. Sometimes he feels like he’s constantly explaining one minority to another, putting out fires between underrepresented groups. Trying to create a safe space for all of them together is his goal, but many times it feels impossible.
“How does he handle it?”
Years and years of experience, training, research, and study, and he still doesn’t feel like he has a firm handle on it. How he approaches any given conflict depends greatly on the specific individuals and situation. He follows certain models of mediation, diversity training, and intercultural communication that he has found effective. I don’t know that I’m competent to explain those in detail.
He invests a lot of energy in the upcoming generations, working with all of the underrepresented student groups on intersectionality, understanding each other’s history, challenging their own biases, looking for common ground, building coalitions.
When it happens to him personally? He tries to choose the right moment to bring it up, often lets it pass in the heat of the moment and broaches it with the individual(s) or group later. Sometimes he decides it’s a battle not worth fighting and pushes it under the rug. He comes home very angry and very hurt, rants for a couple hours and then cries.
“Has he ever been able to make any progress on it?”
Progress in increments. Some individuals more than other. Not some races or some minorities more than others. Certain individuals across all the groups seem more receptive than others. Not sure why.
“Frankly, besides calling people out on it, or trying to find some data or research to attempt to educate people, I am at a loss at what to do.”
I wish I could help you on that. It is a big question in the field. From what I can gather, the main focus is on education and how best to communicate so that people will be receptive instead of defensive.
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@ TheHipHopRecords
“So I’m getting a white man accusing me of being an Uncle Tom.”
Oh, no. I’m accusing you of being much worse than an Uncle Tom. During your ceasefire in the racial wars, you aided and abetted your white enemy in their exploitation of brown people.
Were those Filipinas even people to you? Or just numbers on a tally sheet?
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@Jefe
*Exploitation of brown people ?*
Trust me those Filipina chicks were more than wiling to have sex with a white guy. Indeed some of them are still contacting him to this day
As for me. I was not really their cup of tea
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Different and not the same, I’m not sure how differentmeans worse than, Hmm. Interesting commentary. I’ve seen this pattern before from various commenters *the reparations thread* comes to mind.
My2C: Asian supremacy is a fallacy as Trojan Pam so eloquently spelled out above. I know in my experience the Asians that I went to school with were athletes, science geeks, great dancers and horrible at math. Human just like the rest of us. Only getting to know people on a regular basis will help combat stereotypes.
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(the Asians) *sarcasm *just a hint there, I hope y’all don’t mind.
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@THHR,
You quoted Solitaire’s statement. Was your reply to her?
But she’s right. Your behaviour was way worse than any Uncle Tom’s. And you cozy up much more to whites and have assimilated more white supremacist attitudes and tropes way beyond anything I have ever contemplated. And yet you appear completely in denial to it. That’s the interesting thing.
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@ Jefe
He has absolutely no understanding of colonialism and its legacy. No way to put what he experienced in the PI in context.
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@ Jefe
Just watch — I don’t think he realized I was a woman. He’s most likely going to veer off into a sexist red-pill rant next.
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@lifelearner
Good point, lifelearner.
Coming in contact with and developing relationships with a variety of people helped me see other people as people.
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O. So Solitaire is a woman ?
*The Plot Thickens*
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@Jefe
Yeah. I got you two mixed up. It was meant for Solitare.
You just don’t like the fact that I’m pointing out that there are many Asian ass lickers to whites but when I point this out you accuse me of being lower than an uncle tom.
If anything that’s the number one white supremacist tactic you are using right there, that is, trying to make you look as bad as possible.
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The Asian superiority argument falls apart once you look at the massive poverty that exits in some Asian countries. If intelligence is the prerequisite for economic achievement then the rates of poverty wouldn’t be as high as they are. Instead what raises people out of poverty are access to capital and unhindered markets. China’s move towards a form of capitalism has raised millions out of poverty even though their are still 82 million Chinese living in poverty.
Hip Hop said,
“The Asian menace must be resisted. We cannot allow them any more control over our lives.”
I think I’ll try to unpack this a bit. HipHop’s bias is rooted from his experience and shouldn’t be dismissed solely for its perceived racism.
During the 1992 Rodney King riots a lot of Asian business were target by looters or set on fire. The police retreated and Korean American business owners armed with assault rifles and pistols protected their business and properties from looters.
Fast forward today and Asian owned Black hair supply shops, locale convenient markets (that sell over priced food and do payday loans) ect are still operated in mostly Black communities and their is some animosity about that. You can’t empower your community if your dollars are getting sucked up and sent to a different community.
What that points to is the lack of economic empowerment and capital access that Black communities are not able to qualify for. And the reason for that is not the lack of Black entrepreneurship but rather the resistance of banks to do loans, the underlying systemic racism within the U.S., and the continual harassment against Blacks by police and state agents. If people have access to markets and capital that provides a path for upward mobility.
The higher up the color coded racial hierarchy you go, the more access to capital is available. It is White supremacy that has put Asians near the top of the hierarchy as “model minorities” since the civil rights era.
Taotesan said,
“Here, in South Africa, though, are disparate population groups of Asian descent who have varying degrees of antipathy towards Africans, some granted honorary white status:”
Like in the U.S., racial hierarchy is meant to benefit Whites when its convenient and empowers white economic hegemony. Even Gandhi supported racial segregation and believed Indians were superior to Black South Africans. But he got that opinion from White South Africans.
Sharina said,
“It is not an assumption that blacks are targeted more. It is a reality. Being targeted differently still allows for a comparison. That does not become obsolete because one is different from the other.”
What she is talking about are the levels and scale of oppression today in the U.S. and how they differ between Blacks and Asians. So while it’s historically true that in the U.S. Asians have been slaughtered and dehumanized it is not how the U.S. society is ordered today. Are Asians discriminated against ? Of course. But the majority of incarcerations are directed at Black and Hispanic communities not Asians. The U.S. government interferes with Black empowerment on a community level but leaves Asian communities alone.
But as Jefe points out, that could change if things go south in the China sea. The U.S. military build up their shows American preparation for such an event.
The problem with using the “oppression olympic” argument is that it presumes that all racial and gender oppressions are equal in form and scope. It presumes that Western patriarchy is as equal as the religious patriarchy institutionalized in Saudi Arabia which denies women’s rights and does not recognize rape. The expression was invented by white feminists to deflect away from their own privilege when conversing with women of color. It doesn’t take into account that privileges within racial/gender hierarchies do vary and simplifies the intersectionality of race, gender and class as being linear.
In this thread the oppression olympics have been used against Sharina’s statements because of this idea that racism is structurally horizontal.
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@Michael Jon Barker
Interesting point.
The late Dr. Ronald Takiki, author of A Different Mirror described the racial hierarchy in America as the “terracing of oppression”.
According to him, everyone but wealthy, White, Christian, heterosexual men found themselves on some level of the oppression terrace. The further you were from that pinnacle, the lower you fell on the oppression terrace and the more you experienced multiple types of oppression.
Some people lowest on the terrace, like Black transsexual females, get hit with serious, life threatening oppression from multiple sources on a daily basis.
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Correction:
Dr. Ronald Takaki
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@ Michael Jon Barker
“The expression was invented by white feminists to deflect away from their own privilege when conversing with women of color.”
Source?
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@ Michael Jon Barker
Are you referring to Elizabeth Martinez?
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@Solitare
‘In 1993, the phrase “oppression olympics” was coined by feminist author and activist Elizabeth “Betita” Martínez to challenge the idea of the “hierarchy of oppressions” when addressing inequalities faced by minorities.[13]”
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/oppression-olympics?full=1
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@ Solitaire
To clarify it’s unclear to me whether Elizabeth Martínez came up with the that expression to criticize white feminists who were using a line of argument to shut out women of color criticism or whether she didn’t hold to racial hierarchy as a lens to view society through. She has written some works on white supremacy that is pretty standard stuff but she doesn’t mention racial hierarchy as being a part of white supremacy.
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Sharina said:
“If this was one time thing then it would garner a benefit of the doubt, but you always do this.I watched you do it with Jefe, Anne, Linda, Fan…, Afrofem, pumpkin, villagewriter, and the list goes on. You become nasty rude and aggressive and then turn around and magically talk about trust and believing people were honest etc. You are a damaged and toxic person. ”
VERY WELL SAID, Sharina!!!!!
That “list” of people that he becomes nasty, rude and aggressive with extends to an inordinate number of regular commenters here over an extended period of time in an overwhelming number of topics/threads.
He’s never met an argument that he could resist! Or, a poster that he would not deliberately insult.
Damaged and toxic? <— Understatement!
Dude needs to handle his issues.
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@ Michael Jon Barker
I have always understood that as a Latina she was responding to the black/white model of racism.
From the foreword of De Colores Means All of Us:
“Her overall message is one of coalition building among groups subject to social domination–be they Black, Asian-American, Latino/a, Native American, gay, lesbian or white working-class–in what must become a more collaborative fight for social justice at every level. Evoking a term that will be recognized by many who have hears her speak, she urges us not to engage in ‘Oppression Olympics,’ not to create a futile hierarchy of suffering, but rather to harness our rage at persisting injustices in order to strengthen our opposition to an increasingly complex system of domination, which weaves together racism, patriarchy, homophobia and global capitalist exploitation.”
Google Books will not let me access her actual essays in this book, and I do not have a hard copy at hand.
https://books.google.com/books?id=kDRyVxjcmdcC&pg=PP3&lpg=PP3&dq=elizabeth+martinez+de+colores+angela+davis&source=bl&ots=OFlnzxpLSa&sig=FvZWGPJ_VoL1klx3SGY8pMBNOPI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiitrbTmuLMAhUL2IMKHdXQDeIQ6AEIQDAL#v=onepage&q=elizabeth%20martinez%20de%20colores%20angela%20davis&f=false
For her own voice, see also:
http://www.indigenouspeople.net/blackwht.htm
http://ccs.ihr.ucsc.edu/inscriptions/volume-7/angela-y-davis-elizabeth-martinez/
At any rate, you wrote: ““The expression was invented by white feminists to deflect away from their own privilege when conversing with women of color.”
I wanted to correct this mischaracterization. The term was–to the best of my knowledge and from everything I have ever heard–invented by Elizabeth Martinez to encourage inclusion of more voices and coalition-building across all underrepresented groups.
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@Fan
I didn’t get a chance to say it at the time, but you nailed it in your comment upthread:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/the-asian-supremacy-argument/#comment-315474
Thanks!
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@ Kiwi
I deleted your comment.
There is a moratorium currently in effect between you and Sharina:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/the-asian-supremacy-argument/#comment-315668
Please do not comment on her, her comments or address her till tomorrow afternoon (eastern US time).
You can talk about what others have said, but in the meantime keep her out of it.
Thank you.
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@ Solitare
Maybe if I reword my statement to say this:
“The argument is used by white feminists to deflect away from their own privilege when conversing with women of color.”
That I have seen before in discussions.
I was trying to find her original piece where she penned that term so as to get the right context but I haven’t been able to locate it on line.
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@lifelearner
“Different and not the same, I’m not sure how different means worse than, Hmm.”—I want to say that people are programmed to believe different equals bad, but after several posts I am not sure how said poster missed that without simply choosing to.
@MJB
“What she is talking about are the levels and scale of oppression today in the U.S. and how they differ between Blacks and Asians. “—-Exactly. There needs to be an understanding that there is a difference. This is the same issue I took with LOM and his Irish were slaves too argument. He constantly took the act of enslavement and believed that it was the same as black slavery. He refused to account for the different dynamics and only saw any opposition as saying that “Irish had it better”. We can also look at laws that give police officers the right to check immigration status of those they suspect. A lot of whites, including a small group of Hispanics argued that the law would check anyone. Some argued that it was to catch the illegal immigrant criminals from across the border. Truth is it was aimed primarily at Hispanics. Even if others, blacks or Asians, would get stopped and caught under that law it still is true that Hispanics would be the primary target. That still does not mean that blacks or Asians have it better, because as has been mentioned blacks would get police target for the suspected idea of committing a crime and Asians for the idea that they might be a perpetual foreigner.
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” For that matter, I also wonder what kind of answer Blacks who pull their eyes into slants, say “ching ching”, comment on Asian men’s penis sizes, or served in Vietnam would give.”
.
You just stay in your extremely over exaggerated super-disingenuous mode, don’t you, Colonel Straw-man?
Let’s now look at who actually made the initial comment about a diminished ASIAN anatomical part.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/the-asian-supremacy-argument/#comment-315153
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@ Michael Jon Barker @ alia
I was wrong about Google Books. Follow the link above, click forward to the table of contents, then click the link for essay #2 “Seeing More Than Black and White.” There you can read for yourself the definition and explanation of “Oppression Olympics” as coined by Elizabeth Martinez.
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@ Michael Jon Barker
“Maybe if I reword my statement to say this:
“The argument is used by white feminists to deflect away from their own privilege when conversing with women of color.”
“That I have seen before in discussions. ”
*shrugs* I don’t doubt that the argument has been used that way, but those white feminists doing so do not understand it. This is not the primary use of the argument among social justice advocates who know what it means.
“I was trying to find her original piece where she penned that term so as to get the right context but I haven’t been able to locate it on line.”
See my last comment. I think this is an updated version of the original piece (it’s still old, but updated in that it cites events and sources up to the mid-90s). I’m not entirely sure, though.
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@ taotesen
Kind of a digression because this was something being discussed on another thread: but if you look at the Martinez essay, notice she’s using capital “Black” lower case “white” — almost 20 years ago!
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@Kiwi
Kemosabe – I’m pissed off when any women doesn’t wanna flatten some grass with me. Don’t give a dam what colour she is.
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@ Kiwi
Apparently he now thinks you’re Native American and is choosing his racial slurs accordingly.
I made the mistake of following his username’s link to his twitter. “All women deserve to be raped and murdered.” That’s . . . I can’t even call that sexism, the word isn’t strong enough. Pathological hatred?
That’s my cut-off point. When someone is that full of hatred, I don’t think they can be reached.
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This link has an interesting diagram of the Oppression Olympics game.
(http://www.critical-theory.com/gawker-literally-hosting-oppression-olympics/)
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@MJB
But should the animosity be directed towards whites (who redline the neighborhoods for insurance and credit and banking, fail to provide public security, and shun the neighborhood for products and services, etc.) or the Asians who are forced to obtain those services outside of the mainstream community and government?
I agree that many of those businesses are exploiting a loophole, but that situation was created by whites. Since they are there (and the whites that created the problem are not), it is understandable that they will become the surrogate targets for that animosity. Some are supportive of the communities they are in, some are not so much. More needs to be done to fix these problems, but we need to address the root cause of the problem, not simply a symptom.
As I wrote before in another post, this kind of thing has been going on for 140 years already and it was white people who sucked even higher amounts of money out and still do.
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@ Jefe
“I watched on youtube a show that was presented in a 5-part series (actually part of even a larger series on the Chinese diaspora around the world) on the history of Chinese in the US and Canada — in Cantonese. Of course, it focused on only certain topics, and left out a lot, eg, on Chinese-Black relations and it stopped with Vincent Chin. It did talk a little bit about Chinese-First Nations relations in British Columbia. There was very little on the post 60s brain drain. Anyhow, it was still very good and it was entirely in Cantonese.
“I imagine that there have been documentaries in Japan about the Japanese diaspora (in USA, Brazil, Peru, etc.) and maybe in other countries as well. I don’t see why they could not be shown in the USA.”
Yeah, I was ruminating on Asian Americans producing TV programs, and I didn’t think about existing documentaries. Korea might have some, too?
I do think if there was some way to get the funding and initiative, it would be good to produce some programs here to cover the issues that the Chinese-produced documentary didn’t. But since the Cantonese one already exists and is pretty decent, it would definitely be a good resource to direct Cantonese-speaking immigrants to.
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@MJB
I don’t think anyone purported that it is structurally horizontal.
It is not structurally vertical either.
Anyhow, Abagond will post up something on Oppression Olympics later on and that can be debated ad infinitum there.
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@ Kiwi
“Let me just tell you that from an Asian perspective, I sometimes feel like Black people are more similar to White people than they care to admit.”
Did you see my earlier post where I was answering Jefe’s questions about my spouse’s experience? Everyone does it to everyone..
And no one wants to admit that they do it.
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Kiwi,
This month, is after all, Asian Pacific American Heritage month. There is NOTHING at your university to recognize the history?
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@ Jefe
I don’t think “Oppression Olympics” was ever meant as a lens through which to view racism or as a statement about hierarchy. It may have been interpreted (or misinterpreted) that way later, but I don’t believe that was the original intent. My spouse uses “Oppression Olympics” but he also does a lot of work with the hierarchies of oppression and a similar model called the umbrella of oppression. They aren’t mutually exclusive.
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@Solitaire,
Actually, I made a mistake. That documentary was narrated in Cantonese, but the interviews were in English, Mandarin and Cantonese. They interviewed John Jung, who has commented here on Abagond’s blog in the past, and he discussed in English the history of Chinese Laundries. They interviewed several survivors of Angel Island in English.
The Museum of Chinese American history in New York (which I have visited twice) has information not only in English and Chinese, but also Spanish.
Yeah, for example, it would be good to have more multilingual content on this, eg, the Japanese American internment experience and aftermath available not only in English and Japanese, but also Mandarin, Cantonese, Vietnamese, Korean, Tagalog and Spanish. Maybe it is possible to use existing materials and do voice-over narration.
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@Solitaire,
Maybe your husband has written a piece on oppression models that can be shared with Abagond and his blog?
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@ Kiwi
“You know, I will do just that. I’m going to find out exactly what motivated the decision makers to put up a mural of Black historical figures but not Asian ones at an Asian majority school. I suspect it had something to do with White liberals who, like jefe described, have done more to erase Asian American history than even White conservatives.”
I suspect there were African Americans who fought very hard for the mural but the ultimate decision rested in the hands of white people. I doubt some white person, liberal or not, got the idea out of the thin blue air.
I may be wrong in this particular case, but that is generally the trend.
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@ Jefe
Sorry, no. Once things slow down during the summer break, I’ll ask him if he can give me a list of suggested reading.
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@ Kiwi
How old is the mural? Was your school majority Asian back then?
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@ Kiwi
That’s new, all right.
What’s the Hispanic student representation like?
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@ Kiwi
That’s where I was going. I didn’t know if there was any similar artwork representing Hispanics.
Yeah, it may be the Model Minority stereotype, plus if Asian American student numbers are that high, there may also be some of the “but you’re over-represented so why do you need artwork” rationale. Which can be countered with “but our long history in the US is almost invisible which is one reason we need that artwork” etc. etc.
It will be interesting to see what the Asian American groups on your campus are involved with. First you have to find out which (if any) are activist-oriented. Some might be more like a social club. If there are activists, they may have identified issues they feel are a higher priority than a mural. Or they may be bogged down due to lack of support from the adminstration. Lots of possibilities.
Is there an Asian American Studies department?
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You didn’t realize that already, or way in advance of this blog? Are you involved in any Asian Student organization or read any Asian American media?
I would not be surprised to see murals prominently depicting Black American history and not APA history and culture during APA Heritage month at places like Howard Univ, Fisk Univ or Morehouse College. But it seems a bit odd at a university that is majority Asian.
Even if they are so many Asians on campus, as Solitaire suggested, they might be oblivious to Asian American activist issues, either because they are more socially oriented, geared for foreign students or because their members are just not aware of any Asian American history or current affairs (as it is, as we know, omitted from the national narrative and educational system).
Yeah, ask the professors in the Asian American Studies department.
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@ Kiwi
Also check for diversity-related offices. Somewhere on your school’s website there should be a link to diversity resources. You’re looking for a title something like office of multicultural student affairs, cross-cultural student center, office of social equity and diversity, office of social justice and inclusion.
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@ Kiwi
On the other side of the ledger, your university’s having an Asian American Studies program is a Big Deal. There aren’t very many in existence.
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@ Kiwi
I don’t know if this term is still used in California but in the ’90s the corollary to “white flight” was “Asian invasion.” That was literally the term used when Asians began moving into white-majority neighborhoods.
Admittedly, it is, like white flight, a catchy rhyme. But, hmmm, invasion? Like an invasion of a foreign army? Yellow Peril, much?
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Kiwi said ‘in the US, Asians are shunted by Whites into niches like running shops in order to survive economically.’
Is that paying a quarter million franchise fee to open a dunkin donuts or a shop in the hood. Im a little confused on this one
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Most of the gentrification of traditional Hispanic neghborhoods in L.A. has been from Hispanic to Asian not from white the Asain. (Monterey Park, Alhambera) The exception are Arcadia and San Marino which was originally white. You can’t buy a house their for less then a million any where in those cities. Whites and Hispanics sold because Asains drove up the price real estate. They cashed out and relocated elsewhere.
Asians also live in middle to upper class communities which are also diverse. This idea that they always “group” together isn’t a valid assumption.
I never met anybody who was afraid of Asians or who sold because of “white flight”.
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@ v8driver
Right, Jefe knows way more about that. But there is a post that touches on that:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/06/06/chinese-americans-in-the-deep-south-after-1882/
Asians, like Jews before them, fill a third-race niche in the economy: positions that neither Blacks nor Whites are willing or able to fill.
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@ v8driver
The reason there were so many Chinese restaurants and laundries is not because Chinese men could cook food or wash clothes better than White men, but because White men considered that women’s work. That left open a niche Asian men could fill without seeming to be a threat to Whites (who were not above burning your place to the ground).
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Kiwi asks these questions and how they relate to racial hierarchy. Society is made up of hierarchies, some of them competing and others that layer upon one another. In thinking about hierarchical relationships, the determining factor of whether they are good or bad rest whether they are voluntary as opposed to being held together by force.
Religious hierarchies appear to be voluntary and can be positive on the locale level but also have the potential for violence if a religion wishes to force its particular beliefs on other religious communities. Religions offer special privileges to its members and similarly political and racial hierarchies layered onto each other offer privileges and protections to those at the top and to those who move up within the system. .
Kiwi, 1. Internalized racism among Blacks is relative to Whites. When Blacks lighten their skin or straighten their hair, they are approximating the White form, not Asians. When Blacks pull their eyes into slants, they are not trying to be Asian. They are mocking Asian features.
White is the standard by which all things are judged by. Some Blacks and Asians have preferences for lighter skin because of internalized racism ect.
Kiwi, 2. Americans are more open to the idea of a Black president than they are to an Asian president. This is due to the Model Minority stereotype and the Perpetual Foreigner stereotype. The former paints Asians as apolitical and the latter means Asians are seen as less American than Blacks.
I’m not sure why their are not a lot of Asian Americans within the political system. That these stereo types exist within white supremacy doesn’t disprove racial hierarchies. The “model minority” stereo type points to a hierarchical view of race.
My wife works at a hospital that recently voted to become unionized. Union reps showed up a lobbied hard to the nurses to unionize. When it came down to the vote it broke down around racial lines. Whites and Blacks overwhelmingly voted to Unionize while Asian nurses voted collectively against it. (Vietnamese, Chinese, Filipino ect) It was defeated. My wife asked some of her friends why and their response was they wanted to keep more of their income because they felt that they could invest it more wisely then the benefits they would receive if they unionized. I don’t know whether you would characterize that as apolitical or not.
Kiwi, 3. Assimilative behaviors among Blacks trend towards White folkways, not Asian ones. Blacks speak English, the “default” language, not Asian ones. Blacks who say “ching chong” make this clear. Christianity is dominant, not Eastern religions. Blacks do not convert to Asian religions like Buddhism to assimilate.
Again whites are at the top of the hierarchy so that is the standard that some gravitate towards. Assimilation means supporting white supremacy and it is within that context that liberals argue for diversity. I think society should be made up of parallel communities that retain their cultural heritage and coexist through mutual respect. White supremacy opposes this thus “yellow peril”, “perpetual foreigner”, Islamophobia, Black power ect.
Kiwi, 4. American wars in Asia aligned Blacks with Whites against Asians. Black Americans were united with White Americans against a common, outside enemy: the Yellow Peril. Asians were seen as the menacing outsiders. Blacks took part of national struggles against an Asian “despised other”.
That’s what Nationalism does. It dehumanizes the enemy and rallies its citizens around a common enemy. Non whites who move upward within racial hierarchy (like in the military) do so at the expense of other oppressed peoples. Like religion, racial hierarchy allows special privileges to those who maintain the status quo.
In majority non white countries that trade with the U.S. their “1%” is bought off to keep the flow of resources going at the expense of their own people. That’s one way white supremacy is maintained globally.
Kiwi, 5. Andrea Smith’s three pillars of American White supremacy. Abagond listed anti-Black racism, anti-Native racism, and anti-Brown racism alongside one another as tenets that support White supremacy. He did not point to anti-Black racism as central or even as more important than the others.
Racial hierarchy doesn’t contradict that.
To expand upon that, the three pillars of the Western Empire are:
1. Race
2. Capitalism that maintains white economic hegemony.
3. State apparatuses that use force and coercion to maintain white supremacy within the U.S. and on a world wide basis.
For a better understanding of how I view hierarchies read this:
“Individualist Anarchism and Hierarchy”
https://c4ss.org/content/30804
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The moratorium between Sharina and Kiwi is hereby lifted.
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“The moratorium between Sharina and Kiwi is hereby lifted.” Amen, or
“Letting a hundred flowers blossom and a hundred schools of thought contend is the policy for promoting progress in the arts and the sciences and a flourishing socialist culture in our land.” Mao Zedong circa 1957
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@ Michael Jon Barker
“I never met anybody who was afraid of Asians or who sold because of “white flight”.”
I’m not sure what your point is here. Are you simply sharing your experience or casting doubt on mine? While in California, my Asian spouse had white people pull their children away from him as if he was an immediate threat. Like he would get in line at the grocery store, and the white parent would yank their child around in front of them and physically shield the child with their body.
Being white, I heard white people talk about “Asian Invasion” (thinking I would agree), and I also heard Asian Americans discuss it from their perspective. I’m not making this up.
The housing market has admittedly changed since I was there; it was already unreasonably expensive but has gotten drastically worse. Your statement above sound like Asian investors were flipping houses. This is not quite the same thing as Asian American families moving into a neighborhood to live for a long time. Also, are you implying that only Asians flipped houses and that Asians are solely responsible for running up prices into the millions? Because that may not be how you meant it, but that sure is how it sounds as written.
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@ Michael Jon Barker
Brace for impact.
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@MJB and Solitaire
Re: Oppression Olympics
In most situations where this is thrown out is it not a tool used to silence individuals and ignore that said individual does have some level of privileges?
Are there not privileges to falling under the model minority stereotype?
Another issue I have seen on this thread is people’s experiences become model minority thinking and there seems to be no line drawn between that and just what they have seen or heard. That to me is also a line of silencing because it starts to dismiss others experiences. Just a thought.
@gro jo
Lifted or not….not my monkey….not my circus.
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@ Kiwi
I’ve been thinking a lot of something my partner said after he was treated very shabbily at a minority event he helped to organize. The master of ceremonies neglected to call his name and have him stand up when recognizing the people who’d organized the event, so most of the attendees had no clue why he was at their event. No one would sit near him, he was continually stared at, and he even overheard a couple people saying, “What’s he doing here?” When he got home, he kept saying, “I have to take that kind of sh1t from white people every day. I shouldn’t have to take it from other minorities, too.”
I wonder if that’s where your anger’s coming from right now. That sense of betrayal: that you shouldn’t be treated that way by people who know what it’s like?
The reason I keep coming back to tone, though, is the same thing goes for them. They get treated that way by whites every day, too, and they may feel just as betrayed by you when you go off on them in the same angry way that you would a white person.
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@ Sharina
“In most situations where this is thrown out is it not a tool used to silence individuals and ignore that said individual does have some level of privileges?”
The way it’s supposed to be used is as a reminder that too much in-fighting halts progress. That doesn’t necessarily mean silencing a person. I’ve seen it used hand-in-hand with mindful listening. Along these lines: “Remember, this isn’t the Oppression Olympics. We’re here to listen and learn from each other, to give our full attention to what each person is saying so that we truly hear them.”
How it’s being used by self-appointed Tumblr activists is not the way it’s meant to be used. I’m absolutely sure people have used it to silence others, but they have latched onto the phrase without any real understanding.
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@Solitaire
I am going to share something with you that I also wished to Jefe when he was making note of why up above.
My grandfather is what people would view as an honorary white (make no mistake my grandfather considered himself black). In the small town we grew up in he was highly favored by whites. He joined my grandmothers church, which was made up of darker skinned black people. They did not like him. The pastor of the church put him on the tithing committee. At some point funds were starting to go missing and the members believed my grandfather to be the one taking it. My grandfather was set on leaving the church, but he never did.
In that case they did not hate him just because or to garner white love, they had issues with him because past experiences resulted in people of his skin tone throwing them under the bus for white love. People of his tone taking or destroying what they built. And at the time, while my grandfather never did that, there were people of his skin tone that did. That played into white supremacy to get that extra leg up.
And all groups do it to an extent. At times people will play there “good” portion of the stereotypes to garner white approval. To protect themselves or get ahead. This damages relations and anger becomes misplaced.
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@ Sharina
“Are there not privileges to falling under the model minority stereotype?”
What are some of the things that could be considered privileges?
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@ Sharina
Thank you for sharing that story.
“And all groups do it to an extent. At times people will play there “good” portion of the stereotypes to garner white approval. To protect themselves or get ahead. This damages relations and anger becomes misplaced.”
Right. And on top of that, there are people like your grandfather who are falsly suspected of being that way just because they look like the people who did those things.
We learn from a very young age to think in terms of stereotypes, to divide people in groups, to think if one person who looked like this treated me in such a way, all of the people who look like that will. We learn to conceptualize our world that way, and it is a very hard habit to break.
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Sharina,
I really am trying to understand you.
After invoking the model model stereotype several times upfield, you said
And then shortly after that, you come back with
By claiming that there are privileges accorded to certain groups under the model minority stereotype, but not to other groups, are you not invoking the model minority stereotype and applying it to your argument?
If you indeed do not believe in that stereotype, is there a reason why you use that stereotype to build your argument?
I see the model minority stereotype as something straight out of the playbook of white supremacy. It was invented to restrict and control the civil rights of POC. By expressing attitudes and behaviours that confirm that stereotype (or to believe that it is indeed a model to explain society or to explain privilege), then it is tantamount to embracing the very system of white supremacy that you claim to be against.
If you reject the model minority stereotype, then you have to reject its tenets.
Actually, everyone enjoys some kinds of privileges over others. If you have been following that MTV decoded series on youtube, they explain it very simply. (I can probably find the link if you have not seen it yet.) And if you can “get” that, then you can see how, for example, that for some things, blacks tend to enjoy certain privileges in US society that Asians tend not to. I do not want to get into who enjoys *more* privilege as that spills over into oppression olympics, but if you want to fight white supremacy and build bridges with other groups who want to dismantle the white supremacy system, then one of the things you must do is reject the model minority myth.
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@Sharina,
Thank you kindly for sharing the story about your grandfather. It reflects one of the enduring legacies of colourism, which has torn apart people and their lives at various parts of that spectrum.
However, that is not at all what the model minority stereotype is about. Have you read those two 1966 articles as well as the slew of articles and propaganda during the resurgence in the 1980s? You know that that stereotype is talking about something altogether different.
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@jefe
“After invoking the model model stereotype several times upfield, you said”—I asked you upthread to quote where I have and you have not been able to thus far. So when you say I have I just see it as a convenient just because.
“By claiming that there are privileges accorded to certain groups under the model minority stereotype, but not to other groups, are you not invoking the model minority stereotype and applying it to your argument?”—I am actually simply asking a question, but this becomes the frequent problem. Asking those questions turns into the assumption that one is invoking a model minority stereotype and it becomes an argument about how it is when a simple question is asked. This in turns just seems like a shut down of even asking or even wanting to know period.
Then you write long comments with your already made assumption. What is the point in anyone wanting to learn from a person who takes questions and turn it into “you are invoking the model minority stereotype?” Everything said or asked can’t automatically be model minority but that is exactly what you make it and that is exactly why I believe it is being used by you as a silencing technique.
“If you indeed do not believe in that stereotype, is there a reason why you use that stereotype to build your argument?”—The stereotype was never used to build my argument. It was not part of my argument period.
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@jefe
“However, that is not at all what the model minority stereotype is about.”—I never said that was what the model minority stereotype was about, but it does highlight where a lot of animosity comes from. This is people experience through talking to them. It may not be written in a book, but it should not be discounted either.
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@ Sharina
“Another issue I have seen on this thread is people’s experiences become model minority thinking and there seems to be no line drawn between that and just what they have seen or heard. That to me is also a line of silencing because it starts to dismiss others experiences. Just a thought.”
I’m not quite sure I follow which way you mean this. Are the people being silenced those who refute the Model Majority stereotype or those who support it? Or both?
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@ Sharina
I think you may have just answered my last question in your post to Jefe…
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@Solitaire
“What are some of the things that could be considered privileges?”—Personally I don’t consider anything a privilege that puts a person in a box, but being looked at as a model minority (whether Asian or African) allows for people to view one as less of a threat.
This is the common idea that comes from whites. Being viewed as less of a threat allows for whites to be less wiling to take drastic actions against you, because they don’t see you as something to worry about. While it is not true in terms of being docile, this is an advantage that is not afforded to all groups. Similarly it can be said that blacks have the privilege of being considered citizens where as Asians will be viewed as perpetual foreigners.
“We learn from a very young age to think in terms of stereotypes, to divide people in groups, to think if one person who looked like this treated me in such a way, all of the people who look like that will.”—I agree. I think that idea is slowly dissolving as more people interact with each other.
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@Solitaire
“I’m not quite sure I follow which way you mean this. Are the people being silenced those who refute the Model Majority stereotype or those who support it? Or both?”—I think I may have, but I should also add that I see this in cases of other discussions on stereotypes as well. Everything becomes the stereotype and the discussion becomes muddied because there is no longer a separation between the actual use of the stereotype and a person sharing an experience they have seen.
For example, a commenter could share a story of non-active Asians in political issues and it will get shut down as model minority. That commenter is not saying they believe that, but they are sharing that they have seen that.
That is where the frustration is starting to come in for me. I typically don’t mind explaining, but with this discussion it is turning into “let me just find anything to say it is model minority.”
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@ Solitaire
Yes I’m talking about my own personal experience. I also get that it’s unique to the geographic region I live in and it represents a small sliver in the U.S.
I have never heard people complain about an “”Asian invasion”. I have heard older white people complain that their Asain neighbors were “rude”. I have heard the same complaint against Armenians as well. Sometimes I hear a sort of compliment that’s more of a sterotype like “their great neighbors because they mind their own busines”.
Their is a lot more going on then just Asains “house flipping”. Most house flipping here is done by whites, Hispanics and Armenians. Buy a house, paint it, refurbish with low end materials and flip. What is more common is realtors who specialize in properties for clients who live over seas. Their ia a California law that states if you own property here your children can qualify to go to college so homes are bought and rented out so their kids can attend college. Their is also a lot of venture capital from Asia that gets invested into property. China, both State and private, have invested upwards to 60 billion in U.S. business and property.
I have worked with Asain developers who buy real estate, refurbish and resell. But these are high end materials and construction. I worked on one Asaim owner project that was a 16 million dollar new home in Beverly Hills. Most projects are in the 2 to 3 million dollar range. I don’t know if I would call that house flipping.
Their is discrimination against Asians in college entrance exams. Their bar to entry is much higher then whites.
In Arcadia the medium house hold income is over 300,000. That’s triple what it was 20 years ago.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcadia,_California
The Wikipedia link also shows Asian communities in the surrounding areas.
This article talks about the housing bubble here.
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-chinese-homebuyers-20140324-story.html
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Sharina,
I pointed out it again in my last quote from you that I put into blockquotes when you said “Are there not privileges to falling under the model minority stereotype?” to support your argument.
Your also used it here
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/the-asian-supremacy-argument/#comment-315809
I have also seen you pull it out to support your arguments in a number of other threads. It is a recurring theme. Not just you, but quite a few people here.
But now, I am starting to understand better why.
You see “model minority” as a kind of privilege, ie, a rehash of the old house negro v. field negro bifurcation or the light-skinned v. dark-skinned trope, ie, somehow one group is closer to white people (either in their relationship or in their phenotype) and therefore, enjoy certain privileges that the ones on the other end of the spectrum do not. The closer the “white” one is, then the higher they are in that pecking order, and thus the higher the privilege.
Yes, those have been enduring tropes in US society for centuries. It is wrong and people at both ends suffer for it.
But Model Minority is not about privilege per se. If you read the original theory of model minority from 1966 or even the rehash in the 1980s, it is not about privilege. It is about letting whites off the hook for not according civil rights to everyone, both blacks and Asians. The original model actually pointed out very specifically that Asians were denied their civil rights, yet did not have to react to this denial by rioting in the streets or destroying white property, or demanding special treatment from whites, ie, they attempted to overcome this disenfranchisement through means that did not upset or offend whites.
(Actually, this is not exactly correct, but it was the stereotype being promoted.)
I said upstream that the original (and still actual current) use of model minority has been lost on the next generation. They think it is about privilege. Model Minority is not about privilege. It is not about racial pecking order. It’s about excusing whites for not correcting the civil rights disenfranchisement that they pushed on whomever they could, ie, letting whites off the hook. It is an excuse not to do affirmative action or slavery reparations or any measure that would redress or rectify their past actions. It was even originally an excuse not to do the reparations for the Japanese American internment or for the Chinese Exclusion act or for any new generation of disenfranchised Asian group (eg, the Hmong or Cambodians) as well.
And it is used as an excuse not to do anything about civil rights disenfranchisement for any POC now.
I think that the erasure or intentional omission of Asian American history has caused the original meaning of model minority to be confusticated with privilege.
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@jefe
““Are there not privileges to falling under the model minority stereotype?”—That is not an argument. That is a question with a clear question mark. Where is the argument in asking a questions?
“I have also seen you pull it out to support your arguments in a number of other threads.”—Then you need to show those other threads with those quotes because I rarely comment on the Asian American experience period, but you also made a claim of me doing on this thread prior and here you are smooth talking your way out of supplying those quotes.
“But now, I am starting to understand better why.”—You don’t see why. You see a false why, based on a false assumption and your false need to apply model minority in situations where they don’t apply. I don’t see model minority as a privilege as it contains a lot of psychological effects on Asians who are expected to live up to it, but I do see how others view it and asking that questions should have allowed for a discussion on it. Instead all you managed to do was create a reluctance on discussion because you shot my legit question down as a model minority argument. When clear as day it was a question.
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@ Sharina
“I don’t consider anything a privilege that puts a person in a box, but being looked at as a model minority (whether Asian or African) allows for people to view one as less of a threat.
“This is the common idea that comes from whites. Being viewed as less of a threat allows for whites to be less wiling to take drastic actions against you, because they don’t see you as something to worry about. While it is not true in terms of being docile, this is an advantage that is not afforded to all groups.”
I will agree with you on this. White people have positioned African Americans as the big bad bogeyman. There is, however, a kneejerk reaction from Asian Americans because they are still considered a threat by white people and they also don’t feel safe from white people’s violence. You put it as they are seen as “less of a threat” but too often non-Asians say that Asians aren’t seen as a threat at all, and that isn’t the reality that Asian Americans experience.
If there are privileges accorded by stereotypes on each side, they aren’t enough to make up for the bad part of the discrimination each side faces. Not being seen as a perpetual foreigner doesn’t change the impact of the stereotypes you do face, right? It’s just one piece of cr@p that you don’t have to deal with out of all the possible pieces of cr@p white people can load on you. It works the same way in the opposite direction for other minorities.
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@abagond, jefe, kiwi thanks for the responses.
yes abagond i remember asians in the deep south thread. that’s why i see coolie emigration as somewhat more willing, than the diaspora. obviously i have some reading to do. 🙂
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@Solitaire
“If there are privileges accorded by stereotypes on each side, they aren’t enough to make up for the bad part of the discrimination each side faces.”—That is very true and I fully agree. There is a article I read that I am trying to find that speaks about on these issue and oppression Olympics. I don’t want to paraphrase for fear of saying it wrong, but I will comment again with the article in a bit.
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@ Sharina
It could easily have been read as a rhetorical question even though that was not your intent. I wasn’t sure how you meant it, which is why I asked for an example of privileges.
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@Solitaire
Found it sooner than I thought.
http://everydayfeminism.com/2012/11/oppression-olympics/
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@Solitaire
Thanks for taking the time out to ask, but usually when I ask a question it is out of curiosity or to further a discussion.
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it could be argued that i was even going sideways with dunkin donuts implicitly a fundamentally south asian phenonmenon of them getting family money together and stuff, too bad she who may not be named cannot even be named but anyway… is it more like with the i guess phenotype of epicanthic fols on the eye or something, i think hindus and muslims of south asian have a certainly very regional and religious plus leftover administrative british partioning and the nw territories im confused on the asian part of that
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@ Solitare
You’ll need to scroll up a bit to see my first comment that was stuck in mod.
You said, “This is not quite the same thing as Asian American families moving into a neighborhood to live for a long time.”
I would say that is the majority of people who live here as well as those who live in places like Arcadia and San Marino.
I have worked for people who own real estate here but don’t have American bank accounts. I’ll get paid with an international wire or a credit card from Hong Kong. At first I thought that was unusual and then realized that Americans do the same thing when they move to places like Costs Rica or Panama. They will buy real estate their but keep their U.S. bank accounts.
One of my clients is Korean and is a licensed contractor and real estate broker. She bought properties, did quality renovations, and then sold them to other Koreans. She was doing this after the crash and didn’t seemed affected by the down turn. She learned to speak Spanish and has her own work crew. If you ran into her on the street you’d never know she was worth millions of dollars. She drives an economy car. When I first started working for her she would always get other quotes to compare. It took awhile for her to trust me but eventually she just hired me without getting competitive quotes. I would pull up and she would be bent over this work table studying blue prints and directing the workers in Spanish. She came to America to make money with the intent on going back to Singapore to retire.
Back during the financial crash my worked dropped off significantly because people who hire me do so when the have discretionary income to spend. What I noticed was that my Asian clients seemed unaffected by the crash and for awhile the majority of the people who had work for me were Asian. I was curious and would sometime quiz them on what they did. It seemed most were tied into an Asian economy that was somewhat insulated from what had happened here. Fast forward to today and with the possibility of a China economic contraction as well as the fallout from surrounding Asian countries it’s possible that those effects will have a direct impact here. That will likely implode the micro real estate bubbles created by Asian economic investment here in the L.A. area.
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504 error whiskey tango foxtrot
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yous saw that right?
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🙂
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@ v8driver
Yeah, I tried to get on about an hour ago and got an error message.
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@ Michael Jon Barker
That’s a different phenomenon than I experienced. I don’t know how much of the difference is due to time or because your specific business brings you in contact with a different subsection of the Asian population in California.
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@ Kiwi
“My Asian friend who grew up in a lily-White town told me that White people she barely knew were often uncomfortable having her around their dogs. You can guess why.”
That’s really bad. Like she was going to grab Fido and bbq him right there. Reminds me of the little old white lady in the Midwest at a restaurant. When we were first seated at the booth across from hers, she looked at my partner, then moved her purse over to the other side. Like she really thought he was going to grab her purse and run out of the restaurant! Lady, we just want to enjoy our meal, spare us your micro-aggressions!
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@MJB
This article made me think of you.
http://www.ejinsight.com/20160516-chinese-buyers-pour-billions-into-us-real-estate/
Chinese buyers pour billions into US real estate
Chinese from abroad became the largest foreign buyers of homes in the United States last year, a new study shows.
Seeking safe offshore assets as China’s economy deteriorates, they have been pouring billions into American real estate,
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@ Sharina
Thank you for the link to the Everyday Feminism article. I just finished reading it. Can I ask you what you thought of it?
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@ Kiwi
“While many Blacks may see associating themselves with Whiteness as a way to climb the ranks of society, I have yet to see Blacks trying to associate themselves with Asianness to do the same thing.”
I honestly didn’t understand the point you were making the first couple times you talked about it. I think I get it now.
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@Kiwi asks,
“Your reply seems to contradict your theory of racial hierarchy more than support it.”
Your looking at it wrong. Whites are least likely to date outside their race because they are at the top of the hierarchy. Blacks and Asains are more likely to date outside their race because white supreme by nature destroys identity and replaces it with a white centric facade.
Kiwi says,
“A good thought experiment to test racial hierarchies is to imagine what would happen if all White Americans were to suddenly vanish overnight.”
Well Abagond would shift his focus from race to recovery.
If white people were to magically disappeare from the planet it would take awhile for any meaningful change to occur. The inertia of white supremacy would continue until people figured out how the systemic and institutional structures function in society. The power vacuum would eventually be filled and some places like the continent of Africa would benefit the most. Africans would finally control their natural resources and the entire continent would soon rise as an economic power. This would off set an economic monopoly that would rise out of Asia.
White supremacy is hard wired into Western democracies specifically in how law is interpreted and enforced. That’s part of the systemic nature behind oppression. Even in the absence of white people the justice system would continue to wreck havoc until it was replaced with a law system that reflect locale communities and their customs.
The white economic hegemony would be in free fall and their would be a decentralization of wealth. The power shift would move from the West to Asia. In this hypothetical the Asain rim would become the central economic power house. 100 years from now we would have Asain privilege and Asain males would be the standard by which all things are judged.
In the U.S. you are talking about 50% of the population disappearing. Their would be an abundance of housing and resources. It would probably break down around racial lines but not necessarily lead to violence. Conflict is usually is traced to fighting over limited resources.
The State would still exist. That is a two edge sword capable of great good and evil. One aspect of white supremacy is the monopoly of power the State provides and it’s ability to maintain white supremacy. In a vacuum their might be a struggle for a particular group to grab control but more likely the State would no longer operate effectively in the U.S. It would be in free fall that would mirror the collapse of the white economy.
Personally I’d rather live through a zombie apocalypse. I’d least I’d have a fighting chance lol
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@ v8driver
“with dunkin donuts implicitly a fundamentally south asian phenonmenon”
Ah, I gotta disagree with this. There was this Cambodian-owned donut shop in San Diego called Fluffy Donuts, and everyone giggled at the name until they tried their first donut. Those things were fluffy! And highly addictive, mmmm.
Then there was the Filipino donut shop that also sold balut. Good times.
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@ Kiwi
The interactions and choices people make happen horizontally in society. What disrupts people’s natural choices are various vertical interferences which i call hierarchies.
Social acceptance and rates of interacial relationships does not dismiss that white supremacy has a perceived racial hierarchy that is utilized to maintain white economic hegemony. It is the root behind systemic racism within the U.S. system of governance and extends outwards as foreign policy, dictates whose resources trans national corporation’s go after and forms who U.S. allies are.
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@ Michael Jon Barker
I have a hard time accepting economics as being the sole force behind racism and white supremacy. I grant that it is a factor, but I don’t think it is the only factor, nor can it explain some aspects of racism.
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You are talking about Asian power within the U.S.
Kiwi says,
“Asains have not been able to translate their economic clout into power in other institutions, like top positions in business, banking, government, media, education, etc.”
In Los Angeles Asains have some poltical influence in communities where they make up the majority. Asain Americans are represented in the police force, schools, locale TV anchors, their own cable channels, the major of San Marino ect. Their are Asain banks as well Asain corperations that import/export. Nationally they are not well represented.
“If we accept your racial hierarchy to be true, why are there no Asian saviors in Hollywood rescuing Blacks or others?”
Well their is Glen on the Walking Dead. He has rescued Blacks and others. His wife is a white girl.
But no I wouldn’t say Hollywood represents Asains in those roles regularly. It’s more the exception then the rule. But that is because white supremacy has advocated the stereo type of the effeminate Asain male. By collectivising Asains as Beta males that limits their risk within white supremacy.
I don’t have a problem if you view structural racism differently then me. Their are multiple ways to view how racism affects society. My views match my anarchist beliefs but I also belive that truth can be found within different philosophical ideas. Philosophical pluralism to me means being open to other ideas and the willingness to modify existing beliefs.
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Solitare asks,
“I have a hard time accepting economics as being the sole force behind racism and white supremacy. I grant that it is a factor, but I don’t think it is the only factor, nor can it explain some aspects of racism.”
Economics is part of the whole. The reason behind Columbus and colonialism was economic dominance for their represented country. Racism became an ideology that permitted the rape, pillage and plunder of colonialism. Today it protects the white economic hegemony that controls much of the world’s resources.
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@ Solitare
I think liberals and progressives attempt to separate racism from class. For example Bernie as a class reductionist. It’s the idea that if you can “fix” the economy for the working class the result will lift people out of poverty and as a consequence weaken racism. The idea that their is a viable political solution to erase racism and that’s through economic justice. But what makes it unattainable is that it doesn’t recognize white supremacy as being the over arching determiner of economic merit.
It’s my opinion that economics and race are linked. I think if you could “defund” white supremacy it would collapse but that would entail ending the Western Empire as.we know it.
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@ Michael Jon Barker
“It’s my opinion that economics and race are linked.”
I agree fully with this.
“I think if you could “defund” white supremacy it would collapse”
I don’t exactly disagree with this because I’m not sure what would happen. Let’s say I’m highly skeptical. But it would be an interesting experiment to try. Do you have a conceptualization of how white supremacy might be defunded? I haven’t thought that far, to figure out what that might entail.
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@ Kiwi
Scary stuff, indeed! Worrisome…
One of the most disturbing aspects in interracial relationships is the way (some? few? many?) small White kids react in face of people (especially adults or mere grown-ups) of other races.
This reaction of fear I haven’t see in Black kids when they see a White or Asian adult. At least this doesn’t happen in Mozambique, neither in urban areas (where the kids have already seen some White persons in the street and certainly many White persons on TV) nor in rural areas.
In remote rural areas, where White people are rarely seen, the kids react mainly with curiosity, approaching the person and discretely looking at him/her, especially if said individual White has blond hair and “cat-like” eyes (I mean light colored eyes!). I’ve never seen them reacting with fear!
So the fear of (some) White kids in front of people of other races, must have another explanation other than “all kids fear unfamiliar adults”
I suspect that (some) White parents instill that fear somehow in their children. And this is really very bad! Is like instilling a venom in the mind of their children, who, certainly, were not born that way (with fear of other races)!
This is one of the reasons of the enduring resilience of White racism until these days.
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@TheHipHopRecords
While your sexism is wrong (although I felt a hint of sarcasm) I don’t believe what you said was wrong. Too much focus was put on falsely calling you an uncle tom and a refusal to acknowledge that clinging to whiteness exists in a lot of Asian countries. There was dismissal by calling you names rather than acknowledging the issues.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2830602/Plastic-surgery-drastic-t-past-airport-security-Chinese-women-flying-South-Korea-Western-face.html
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/10/22/skin-lightening/
@Fan…
I could not speak on it before but toxic is an understatement. He harbors extreme anti-black attitudes and I feel like my past refusal to address it has made him feel more confident in displaying it. Even in his more recent comment to me he has twisted what actually happened to create the idea that he is the victim, because things were twisted. Yet I repeated the same things for several posts. How can you twist want is consistently the same each and every post? You can’t, but when a person sees something that is not there then I am sure that is possible.
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@Kiwi
I never downplayed it there deaths. So do yourself a favor and stop twisting what I said.
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their
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@Solitaire
“Can I ask you what you thought of it?”—The article gave me a good idea of how oppression Olympics works, although I disagree that it just applies in situations where it is meant to hurt. Ultimately hurt is what comes from it, but comparison alone applies. What struck me about the article was the talk of privilege. While I agreed above that the good does not outweigh the bad, it still needs to be acknowledge that those “privileges” help individuals better navigate through the system of white supremacy. I personally have noticed that this is part of the reason why oppression Olympics becomes a problem (ie LOM). Why it becomes a shouting match instead of acknowledging the oppression. For example, with me and my husband. When I am out with the kids men are openly willing to put my groceries in my cart for me and hold doors open for me and even hold an umbrella over my head as I get to the car. That is not going to happen with my husband. People are not going to be willing to do any of those things because they see him as a capable male.
Re: Kiwi’s Tone
People in here do not have issues with Kiwi’s tone. They deal with racist pretty regularly. The issue is over the years he has become very anti-black. He excuses this by claiming he is pointing out hypocrisy, when in reality he is not. A while back he made a very anti-black comment that resulted in a large blow back. He later made an explanation that I and a few commenters accepted. Since then his anti-black behavior has greatly increased. He used to be in very close contact with a black female commenter. Said commenter expressed a desire to date white men due to the fact that they were the ones that showed interest. Before long he was venomously attacking her. She left the blog permanently and had her comments deleted. In short, the I’m trying to understand nice guy act is just that…..An ACT.
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@Kiwi
“Far more Muslims die from White supremacy on an ongoing basis but we are supposed to believe Blacks are bearing the brunt of racism because their deaths happen in the US and because American privilege.”—Your not suppose to believe that because I never said that. You brought in Muslims to deflect. That is your circus, so you break down and ask and figure out what you want to believe.
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Kiwi
If you are going to twist something…make sure what you are twisting is lost.
1. Sharina said Blacks bore the brunt of racism and were targeted more than Asians. Past tense.—What Sharina actually said: “I would also add that they dealt with the brunt of racial discrimination. Not discounting the struggle of Asians, but it was not the same.”
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/the-asian-supremacy-argument/#comment-315423
2. I said it looks that way after the fact because Blacks were the only ones who didn’t get killed off or driven out en masse, like others.
3. She twisted what I said into something about Blacks being targeted more because there’s more of them. What was said from first comment: I would not say it is just population size.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/the-asian-supremacy-argument/#comment-315423
Before he even made the comment of it looks that way.
4. I said Blacks and Asians are targeted differently and questioned whether they can even be compared. What Sharina said first comment again: Not discounting the struggle of Asians, but it was not the same
Use prior links to view direct comment.
5. She had this gem to say: “Blacks suffer police brutality and death now and have for a long time. Asian internment camp was years ago and really is hard to compare to an ongoing issue. There is not such a large hostile ongoing issue for Asians.” Wow. So now the past doesn’t matter. See #1.
Falsely made assumption: Something that is continuously happening (past to current) cannot really compare to something that happened years ago. simple
6. Following her reasoning, I pointed to Muslims being targeted more for killings, also an ongoing issue.—What Sharina actually said: I don’t doubt he has, but I also don’t have proof he has. What I have proof of is white American citizens murdering or attacking Muslims in the USA.
Saying you don’t have proof of something is not downplaying. It just means you don’t know, because I never denied that it likely did. Happenings in the USA is what I know is happening for certain.
7. She downplayed that, saying they weren’t in the US, like that made a difference. Obama’s female equivalent much?—See #6
What I don’t understand is that if Blacks bear the brunt of racism and are targeted more, how does that NOT mean others, including Asians, don’t have it as bad? You can’t have it both ways.—You can’t have it both ways, but you can have it different ways. A concept that was repeated several times.
I get you want to “expose” and show what a stand up guy you are to solitaire, but this exercise did nothing, but show how well you manipulate words and situations. I would feel sorry for you, but I really only have the capacity to feel sorry for people who choose to admit they have a problem. You may continue to obsessively engage me with false conclusions of my words.
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@Kiwi
And here you are creating a false issue. I never attached her.
“How much lower will you go?”—Obviously not as low as you.
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attacked*
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@Kiwi
SMH….Me disagreeing with a method that she as well as others did is me disagreeing. But disagreeing is not an attack or jab or any other term you are going to try to change it to later. You want her to be mad at me because you are and that really is childish. Adults agree and disagree without animosity. Try it.
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@Kiwi
She as well as jefe did call him a uncle Tom, but pointing that out does not mean I think less of her. She also said he was sexist, which I agreed with but was name calling none the less. It simply means I disagree with him being called that to not address the issue. I have no issues with her, because we can agree to disagree without it being a slight to the other. #Adultlife
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One thing I will not do is play a tug of war with her. She can decided on her own what is and is not a slight, but you trying to create an issue. WOW.
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Kiwi, What’s your take on these Asian ladies?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Kochiyama
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Lee_Boggs
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@ Sharina,
What’s the point of arguing with “it”?
You can’t argue with a LIAR.
The arguer will always TWIST and misrepresent (on purpose) anything you state (to Muslims and Asians and Abagond says, or whatever..) to support THE LIE.
The truth can’t and won’t save him.
1 Fish live in water.
2 Birds have wings.
3 Vampires suck blood!
4 and LIARS LIE.
Spending your time with/on them (esp 3 & 4) will never change who and what they are.
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Kiwi, you must have a lot of time on your hands to be posting at all hours of the day and night!
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@Fan
Great points!
Reminds me of the tale of the Frog and the Scorpion.
http://allaboutfrogs.org/stories/scorpion.html
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@Sharina
Arguments about Muslim deaths are a red herring.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html
They represent a false equivalence tactic designed to distract you and put you on the defensive.
It wastes of your time and energy.
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His granddad, Sheriff Harry Lee left him a fortune based extorting money from blacks.
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All kidding aside, I want to express my admiration for Kiwi, as one pain in the ass to another.
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@gro jo
Ever the contrarian. LOL!
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@Sharina
I really don’t want to get into this, but neither Solitaire nor I ever called him an Uncle Tom. Please go back and check in case your forgot. He used that name himself alleging that other people were doing that.
Solitaire said that he related about some of his behaviour that reflected “cozying up to whites” plus some other things that caused her to think he was acting “worse than an Uncle Tom”, and on that point, I happened to agree with her. That is all.
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@Gro Jo
I’n just waiting on your I told you so.
@Jefe
Then I stand corrected in regards to either of you calling him an Uncle Tom, but the issue he presented still did not get addressed because the concern was what he was.
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@ Sharina
I admit that I never fully addressed TheHipHopRecords on the issue of those Asians who “worship” whiteness, but it was largely because he never responded to my questions about his understanding of colonialism. I was ready to engage with him in a conversation about the reasons behind that worship, but he didn’t respond although I asked him more than once. Perhaps I should have gone ahead with my explanation anyway, but he didn’t seem interested.
The elevation of whiteness and the existence of colorism in the PI and similar countries is a legacy of being colonized and subjugated by whites, who instituted a system where white people treated mixed-race and lighter-skinned Asians better. It cannot simply be reduced to “Asian chicks dig white guys.”
There is also the issue of First World versus Third World. Those women he talked about didn’t hop into the sack just for the sheer pleasure of having sex with a white man. They are desperate to latch onto a white man who can be their ticket out of the Third World into a better life. That’s the reason some of those women are still e-mailing his white buddies 8 years later. I’m not condoning the behavior of these women, and I admit there is a bias towards white people in their actions. But the dynamic is far more complicated than TheHipHopRecords was framing it.
In my opinion, the behavior of his white friends was worse than the behavior of the Filipinas. His white friends took advantage of brown poverty and white privilege to get easy sex from POC women who they have no respect for. Apparently the only thing TheHipHopRecords has a problem with is the Filipinas wouldn’t open their legs for him as well. He doesn’t see anything racist in the behavior of his white friends.
If TheHipHopRecords had stuck with talking about skin lighteners and advertisements, I would have still brought in the issue of the legacy of white colonialism, but I would not have been so outraged and I would not have taken him to task.
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As far as Asians having the eyelid surgery, that comes out of the same place as African Americans having nose jobs or straightening their hair: internalized racism and self-hatred for not fitting the vaunted white standards of beauty. There may also be direct pressure from the white powers-that-be. For example, I have heard accounts of Asian American students in broadcast journalism programs being told they will need the eyelid surgery if they want to have a career.
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My dear, that would be witless of me. We all live and learn.
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@ Sharina
“While I agreed above that the good does not outweigh the bad, it still needs to be acknowledge that those “privileges” help individuals better navigate through the system of white supremacy.”
I want to ask something, but first let me say this is not a trick question. I’m asking sincerely to try to understand.
Why is it important to you that non-black minorities make an overt and direct acknowledgment of those privileges? I don’t mean as opposed to their denying the privileges. I mean, why is it important to bring those privileges up before discussion of their hardships takes place? What does it mean for you as an African American to have that acknowlegment happen? What does it signify to you?
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@Solitaire
One of the main reasons why I felt telling the Why was important is because a lot of people may not be aware of the history. Oddly I learned a small bit because of a Filipino drama, Amaya. It touched on it at the end of the drama series which really made me think in regards to how white colonization really destroyed such a vibrant culture.
“But the dynamic is far more complicated than TheHipHopRecords was framing it.”—I agree it most certainly is not that simply. A while back I read an article on some of the reasons why they do it and latching on with hopes of leaving a third world is only one. Some harbored along the lines of rape because some of the women were not sure how to politely say no to these men. Though I understand where Hiphoprecords maybe coming from in the sense that if it were as simple as getting out, then why not get out with any seemingly eligible bachelor? That can be where white supremacy frame of mind takes over.
I won’t purely speak for him, but I don’t think it was a matter of not seeing anything racist in his white friend (I could be wrong), but a matter of pointing out those women were racist. Regardless it all could be an issue of no sex with him to make him believe that.
“As far as Asians having the eyelid surgery, that comes out of the same place as African Americans having nose jobs or straightening their hair: internalized racism and self-hatred for not fitting the vaunted white standards of beauty”—That is true, but it is an issue none the less. I am not sure how it is addressed in the Asian community, but I know a great deal is said about African Americans who choose to do that, especially more so with the unapologetic black attitude rising. In exchanges of the natural vs relaxer crowd I have found women that do straighten do so for a variety of reasons and not always to fit that white standard of beauty. Some do it because they feel straightening is more manageable aka my mother never taught me to care for my natural hair. Some see natural as too expensive. Some, such as myself, do it every 6 months (not chems just blow out) to see the length and to get a clear cut of split ends. Then you have the some that frankly deal with internalized racism. As for nose jobs, that is pure internalized racism and I usually just call people on it. Can’t speak for the others in the AA community.
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@Solitaire
“Why is it important to you that non-black minorities make an overt and direct acknowledgment of those privileges? “—It is important that all groups do it. Not particularly just non-blacks. In my opinion you can not fully understand someone’s plight until you look at the situation through all aspects. If you analyze a situation are you just going to focus on one part of it? Is that one part going to give a clear understanding? I personally don’t think so. It simply opens the door for a person to be more willing to listen.
“I mean, why is it important to bring those privileges up before discussion of their hardships takes place?”–Not before the discussions, but during the discussions. Lets look at it like this. During oppression Olympics does anyone discuss the plus? No, because they focus so much on how bad one or the other has it right? But is it not fair to say it could be worse? On top of that the good actually could be beneficial in helping other groups move up or break leeway towards breaking away from white supremacy.
“What does it mean for you as an African American to have that acknowlegment happen?”—For me personally it is a step forward. It breaks down the walls put up to have a discussion. I have no problem acknowledging that I as a black heterosexual woman have privileges. I can use that privilege to help others. It is just saying “okay, I have this “privilege” what can I do to ensure you have it and to build” or “how can we fight white supremacy with this”
I hope that makes sense.
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@ Sharina
“One of the main reasons why I felt telling the Why was important is because a lot of people may not be aware of the history.”
Very good point. I got so upset at TheHipHopRecords that I forgot there were other people reading along who might not be aware of the history and had the same questions.
“Oddly I learned a small bit because of a Filipino drama, Amaya. It touched on it at the end of the drama series which really made me think in regards to how white colonization really destroyed such a vibrant culture.”
Yes. And both the Spanish and the Americans set up a color-ranking system in the PI similar to what they did in the Americas. Colorism in the PI comes out of the very same dynamic as among African Americans. The white colonial rulers believed that mixed-race Filipino/as were “more civilized” and “more intelligent” than full-blooded Filipino/as. They were given many more opportunities for education and advancement than darker Filipino/as, but they were still considered much lower than whites.
“A while back I read an article on some of the reasons why they do it and latching on with hopes of leaving a third world is only one. Some harbored along the lines of rape because some of the women were not sure how to politely say no to these men.”
That is a very good point. Filipino culture is one of many Asian cultures where it is rude to say “no” directly. There are ways of saying “yes” which within that culture actually signify a polite “no.” Unless we could actually see what happened in that room, we don’t know but that some of these women actually weren’t willing. By the time they said an outright rude “no,” his white friend might not have cared.
“Though I understand where Hiphoprecords maybe coming from in the sense that if it were as simple as getting out, then why not get out with any seemingly eligible bachelor? That can be where white supremacy frame of mind takes over.”
I agree. I had already thought about that and as you pointed out, I should have gone ahead and written it. Obviously the Asian women are aware that black men in First World countries do not have the same amount of privilege and clout as white men. They are going to set their sights on the white man for that reason, and they may also have other prejudices against black men that they have picked up from white-based media, etc.
“That is true, but it is an issue none the less. I am not sure how it is addressed in the Asian community, but I know a great deal is said about African Americans who choose to do that, especially more so with the unapologetic black attitude rising.”
It is definitely being discussed but since there hasn’t been an unapologetic “yellow/brown is beautiful” moment yet, it is not quite the same. Maybe the discussion is more like it would have been in the African American community prior to the 1960s. I don’t quite know. But it isn’t just getting pushed under the rug. There are Asian Americans who definitely see it as a problem.
“In exchanges of the natural vs relaxer crowd I have found women that do straighten do so for a variety of reasons and not always to fit that white standard of beauty.”
That’s a good point. To make another comparison, there are some Asian Americans who lighten their hair to fir white standards of beauty, but there are others who do it as a quirky punk-like fashion statement. You can often tell the difference just by the cut and the way color is used.
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@ Sharina
That was a very thoughtful and well-reasoned answer.
I have a reply, but I first want to make a couple things clear. In my reply, I am going to do the thing Abagond does where he doesn’t write “some but not all” but he means that to be implied. I also do not mean any of this to be taken as directed at you personally, because it is not.
Ok. I agree with everything you said. What I want to share is based on what I have often heard from Asian Americans, Hispanics, and Native Americans.
From their point of view, they often feel like African Americans will not listen to them unless they first admit to having many privileges and being less discriminated against. They sometimes describe it as “the hoop we have to jump through every single time we want to talk about our experiences with racism.” They also complain that while they are expected to do this, their African American counterparts will not in turn admit to having any privileges. I’m not saying this is true or false, but just how it is commonly perceived on their end.
“I as a black heterosexual woman have privileges.”
I have found that, when a person of one race wants to bring up the privileges another race has, prefacing it with a statement like yours above often helps a great deal. It immediately sets up the understanding that you aren’t attacking them for being privileged. It signals that although you are about to ask them to discuss the privileges accorded to their group, you aren’t doing so to start another round of the Oppression Olympics. This works in all directions, of course. It would be just as true of, say, a Native American wanting to raise the topic of privilege among a non-Native minority group.
“On top of that the good actually could be beneficial in helping other groups move up or break leeway towards breaking away from white supremacy.”
Yes, this is a very good point. As Abagond pointed out in his new post on the two-race and three-race models, white supremacists want to use these privileges to shore up their racist system as they become a statistical minority. If those lighter-skinned Asians and white Hispanics resist this temptation, they could instead use those privileges to help break apart structural racism and white supremacy.
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@Solitaire
Solitaire, I am curious. What privileges do the Latinos, Asian Americans and Native Americans you have spoken to perceive African Americans/Blacks to possess?
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@Afrofem
There’s still more Black Americans that Asian people in the US of A, so you have the privilege of ‘political power’. More Black athletes as well as actors and famous people in general in the west. Latinos come in all flavors but in general will someday assimilate as being ‘white’. I don’t know when but it is inevitable.
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@ Afrofem
These are the ones that immediately come to mind. I’m sure there are more I’m forgetting.
– the privilege of not being considered a foreigner in their own land
– the privilege of not having to always carry a passport or tribal identity card because LEOs don’t consider driver’s licenses sufficient proof of citizenship
– the privilege (at least in many cases) of having surnames that sound white, which prevents their resumes from immediately going into the trash
– the privilege of not having white people assume they don’t understand English and therefore can be insulted or mocked without comprehending
– the privilege of not having white people talk to them in broken English or pidgen (“you-ee lik-ee” or “heap big chief”)
– the privilege of always being included when white leaders decide to do something about racial issues (see Abagond’s two-model race post for the example re Bill Clinton, but it happens at all levels)
– the privilege of not having to worry at border crossings or international airports that they will be prevented from returning to their own country
– and specifically in the case of Native Americans:
– the privilege of not having white people assume you are all dead
– the privilege of going to a sporting event without seeing your culture and race being mocked and trivialized
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@Solitaire
I agree with the majority of what you said, but two common misconceptions need to be addressed.
1. the privilege (at least in many cases) of having surnames that sound white, which prevents their resumes from immediately going into the trash.—-That is not entirely true as the surname may be white sounding but the first name being a black sounding one will undoubtedly result in that resume getting put in the trash. http://www.monster.com/career-advice/article/do-black-names-matter
This is a controversial topic as many blacks have spoken about being conscience in choosing your child name as not to set them up, but issue should not be name but what they can bring to that company
2. the privilege of not having white people talk to them in broken English or pidgen (“you-ee lik-ee” or “heap big chief”)—-Whites regularly try to speak to blacks in ebonics. Some view it as trying to be cool and harmless, but others due it purely out of racism. None the less the assumption is that blacks can not speak and do not speak proper English. So this is not one I would say we have the privilege of.
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cautious*
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I dunno. It seems the starting point of any conversation about race should be white supremacy/privilege and how that interferes with your life, not the presumed benifits that white supremacy dolles out to non whites.
For those who are not white to ask, “I checked my privilege, have you checked yours ?” that seems like a deflection away from white supremacy and a redirection back at the individuale affected by white racism.
It is about your rights, how they are inalienable and self evident. The question is the level of interference and where that interference is directed at in your life. It is different for every group dominated by white supremacy. It is about exercising your rights free from interference. That is the pursuit of happiness.
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@TeddyBearDaddy
I agree with you about Latino’s becoming White in the future.
The “political power” you mention is a mirage. There are a lot of Black politicians, but they don’t necessarily translate into true power (or respect) for Black people.
One example is the response to a Klan rally in Memphis, TN in 2013.
Memphis is majority Black and awash in Black politicians, police and other officials. In 2013, the KKK decided to hold a rally in Memphis and the response of city officials was the opposite of power. According to a community group called Black Autonomy, the Klan was coddled by the city and Black protestors threatened with arrest and intimidated for peaceful protest:
http://blackautonomyfederation.blogspot.com/2014/09/police-counterinsurgency-against.html
TeddyBearDaddy, all that glitters is not gold, or power in this case.
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@ Solitaire
I’m aware of exceptions to the privileges you listed. However, it is good to examine things from another perspective.
Thank you for your detailed answer. If you can think of more, please list them.
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@michaeljonbarker
I get what you are saying and I will go into more detail as best I can later, but the discussion about white supremacy never gets had because the oppression Olympics takes over. It clouds the discussion because the idea is “I had it worse”. Once that barrier can be broken, then I think people can see how white supremacy has screwed them over and come up with a more concrete plan to address it.
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@ Afrofem
“I’m aware of exceptions to the privileges you listed.”
I am, too. But I think those privileges in the list are not in and of themselves the main complaint. They mostly just want to be able to have their experiences with racism to be heard, respected, and honored. They don’t want to feel that their own struggles are minimized or discounted.
@ Sharina
“That is not entirely true as the surname may be white sounding but the first name being a black sounding one will undoubtedly result in that resume getting put in the trash.”
I know, that’s why I focused on surnames. This is actually something my partner struggles with a great deal, because he has been in situations where he has advised black students with those types of first names to put on their resume their initials or a shortened version of their name that sounds more “white”–but he hates doing that, he always tells them it will help them get ahead but at the same time denies their heritage etc. and advises them to think hard about it before they decide. People in the other three groups also can have first names as well as surnames that sound obviously non-white, and he has had the same talk with them. I would point out one difference, though: it is easier to conceal a first name by using initials, a shortening, or a white-sounding nickname. To conceal an ethnic-sounding surname you would have to go through a legal name change, which would feasibly then be passed down to later generations. It is more costly, more time-consuming, and a lasting erasure of heritage.
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@Solitaire
“They mostly just want to be able to have their experiences with racism to be heard, respected, and honored. They don’t want to feel that their own struggles are minimized or discounted.”
That seems to be a universal desire.
I’ve had eye-opening face to face conversations with a range of people from other ethnic groups about their experiences with both inter- and intra-ethnic bigotry. There is a lot to be learned. Getting to the point of talking face to face can be challenging sometimes, but worth it.
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“2. the privilege of not having white people talk to them in broken English or pidgen (“you-ee lik-ee” or “heap big chief”)—-Whites regularly try to speak to blacks in ebonics. Some view it as trying to be cool and harmless, but others due it purely out of racism. None the less the assumption is that blacks can not speak and do not speak proper English. So this is not one I would say we have the privilege of.”
My personal opinion is that this is one case where it would be fair to say that the two experiences are different but similar. It isn’t really a privilege on either side because the assumptions that racist white people make are the same. It just gets expressed differently: pidgin in one situation, in the other ebonics.
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@ Kiwi
“Another “privilege” I would add that Blacks have is that at schools and universities, America’s history of race relations is taught overwhelmingly from a Black/White dominated perspective.”
To be fair — and as someone who is older and remembers when this history was barely taught — black people have fought to make this happen. But yes, it is true that in mainstream history classes (as opposed to ethnic studies) and in other disciplines, race is taught in the black/white model. An African American can take it for granted that when racial issues in America are taught in the classroom, their race and experience will not be left out. The others not so much.
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@ Kiwi
I understand your anger about that. I do think people have the right to question and challenge. But there needs to be a way of doing it while still being respectful and honoring the pain and suffering those ancestors endured.
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@ Kiwi
“You are free to disagree, but in my book, claiming that any one group bore the brunt of racial discrimination erases and trivializes the pain and suffering of other groups.”
I categorically refuse to take sides in the argument between you and Sharina about what exactly she wrote and how exactly she meant it.
I will, however, state that you’ve pretty much summed up another aspect of the Oppression Olympics. It isn’t just a competition over who suffered most; the arguing also makes everyone feel that the others have trivialized their experiences. Even if a winner emerges out of a particular Olympics session, they are going to feel hurt and angry about things that were said about their experiences during the arguing. It is a lose/lose game.
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@ Afrofem
I’ve thought of another perceived privilege, or maybe more accurately, perceived power. This is going to be a touchy one, I think, but I’ve decide to go ahead and describe it. Please keep in mind that I’m not saying this is true but instead reporting the commonly held perception as I have frequently heard it expressed.
African Americans are often seen by the other racial minorities as having the power of gatekeeper to diversity resources. I’m most familiar with higher ed. so I will take my examples from there, but this happens also in places like city government, public schools, etc.
For example, the majority of diversity-related positions in higher education are held by African Americans. This has begun to shift during the last 20 years, but it is still the case at most institutions. At many schools, the predominant diversity resources are for African Americans: black culture centers, black studies programs, black graduation ceremonies, etc.
Now, a big reason for this is the Civil Rights Movement and the work done by black people to get these centers and resources established in the first place. That part is understandable.
But there is a perception that now, many decades later, the African American faculty and adminstrators have solidified control over these resources. They may not have the same amount of privilege as the white professors in other areas of university life. But they are seen by Latin@s, Native Americans, and Asian Americans as definitely having control in this specific area. There is a perception that to get something like a multicultural center with departments for all the racial minorities, they have to deal with not just the white gatekeepers who hold the purse strings but the black gatekeepers who have to be convinced that this project will not be detrimental for black concerns.
So diversity itself is an area where the other three groups feel that African Americans have more control, and especially control over whether the other three groups will be taken into consideration.
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@ Kiwi
I categorically refuse to take sides in the argument between you and Sharina about what exactly she wrote and how exactly she meant it.
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Solitaire,
Thank you kindly for your brief initial list of privileges that blacks tend to enjoy over other non-black POC. It helps to shed some light on the situation.
A few others came to mine, vis-a-vis Asians and Native Americans (and also Arabs / middle Easterners), eg,
– Comfort in knowing that they will not be the “go to” race for racial abuse by prominent national figures who get away with it. It has been brought up here before on this blog, but neither Stephen Colbert nor Chris Rock will have to face any national condemnation or pull-out of sponsors or any significant deleterious effect on them (unlike, for example, what happened to Paula Deen).
– Never having to worry much about “Blackface”, at least for the past 70 years or so (whereas Yellowface and Redface are still with us and as strong as ever, as is, I am not sure what to call it, but “arab face”).
– Not ever having to face the question about which country they would support if the USA and (whatever African country) went to war. This is a corollary of the Perpetual Foreigner syndrome, but it is not trivial. The national loyalties were not only questioned during WWII, or during the Red Scare in the 1950s, but it has never gone away and explains why many Asians are targeted for treason or espionage today and why all of the major wars that they USA has been in involved in for the past 70 years are in Asia. The next one will be in Asia too, so we must keep our eyes on the South China Sea.
– Not having to worry as much about how much white people (esp. white liberals) will trivialize their experience. Whites do trivialize the experience of blacks to an exceeding amount, but still not nearly as much as they trivialize the others. (I apologize that this is stepping slightly over the line into the Oppression Olympics debate, but as I will mention again below, things having credence only if white people say it).
I have many more in my mind, maybe I can share as soon as I can put them down into words.
I felt rather uncomfortable (ie, cringetastic) regarding your explanation why Black American history is more prominent in the US than Asian American history (or even Native American or Latino history) as being due to their having fought for this inclusion over a number of years. There are at least 3 reasons for this:
1. Asians (and Latinos and Natives) have been fighting all along for inclusion in the US historical narrative.
This is, after all, Asian Pacific American Heritage Month. How do you think it came about in the first place? It is because Asians were completely omitted from the 1976 Bicentennial Celebrations, and people worked tirelessly to insert the APA experience into the national narrative. However, even after 40 years, it is still largely absent, most prominently from communities which are majority Asian American. That does not mean that people have not been fighting for it.
2. There has been a concerted effort to remove, even ban, the narrative about those experiences in the USA
You don’t have to go any further then stuff like the ban in Arizona on ethnic studies (esp. on Mexican American studies) or the complete removal / deletion of any information on the Lenape or the original inhabitants of New York at the National Museum of the American Indian in New York City. I am sure Kiwi can expound on the virtually complete expungement of Asian American history in majority Asian American schools and communities. Angel Island is close enough to where he grew up to do a one-day school field trip. Did he ever do it?
Even I went to visit Ellis Island in New York City.
Can you imagine if the state of South Carolina imposed a complete ban on, say, the mention of Sullivan’s island in school, the slave trade, ante-bellum plantation life for blacks, sharecropping, Jim Crow, etc. in its public educational institutions and mainstream discourse?
3. You trivialized the real effect of genocide
I admit that this steps over the line into Oppression Olympics again, but (for reasons mentioned below), your opinion does matter on this. If you wipe people out, then their narrative is lost. It is easily replaced with another narrative (eg, when you, “to be fair”, brought up the “genocide” in the Middle Passage to explain why blacks are sensitive to this vis-à-vis the genocide of both Native Americans and Asians, which occurred on a much larger magnitude. This is despite the Native American genocide being the unmentioned narrative staring us straight in the face every day.)
Now to my final point.
Abagond has mentioned many times on his blog how information about POC experience lacks credibility unless white people state it. But now, it should be obvious that it is not just credibility for white audiences, but for other POC audiences as well. Ever wonder why that is?
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@Solitaire,
I sent in my last post before I read yours immediately before that. Thank you again for another explanation why there has been so much exclusion and deletion in the national narrative about Asian, Native and Latino history and affairs. Blacks are now largely in control of this as gatekeepers of the diversity experience.
But, again, I am reminded of the last paragraph of my immediate prior post.
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@ jefe
“I felt rather uncomfortable (ie, cringetastic) regarding your explanation why Black American history is more prominent in the US than Asian American history (or even Native American or Latino history) as being due to their having fought for this inclusion over a number of years.”
I apologize, but please allow me to explain that I didn’t mean it as a thorough explanation in any shape or form. It was a quick aside to Kiwi to say his educational experience is not the same as that of many of us in this discussion, and maybe also meant as a reminder to them that Kiwi is speaking from the experience of someone who doesn’t remember those days. I did not mean to imply anything more by that, and I apologize for not wording it more carefully. I was aware of some of the following information you wrote about efforts by other racial minorities to be included in the curriculum, but some of that information was new to me, and I thank you for sharing it and helping me expand my knowledge.
As concerns your last point, I have been uneasily aware of that fact this whole time and was wondering if it would be mentioned and by whom. It is a valid question.
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Ha,ha. More bs from Sheriff Harry Lee’s grandson.
The reason you’ve heard of the Japanese American internment is because of people like Yuri Kochiyama and her husband, Harlem residents who worked with people like Malcolm X.
From Elijah Muhammad, who went to jail rather than go to war against Japan, to Malcolm X and Muhammad Ali, who stated “no Vietcong ever called me nigger”, and lost millions of dollars, and risked losing his freedom because of his stance against the war, some blacks refused to fight Asians for principled reasons. What have you contributed that remotely compares to their sacrifices?
There’s no comparison between the role of blacks and any other group in western society as the vanguard in the struggle for human liberation.
Note to Abagond the banned word is part of a quote so it should be allowed.
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@ Jefe
As far as concerns my comment to Kiwi regarding the Middle Passage and cultural genocide, I was not trying to equate those to any other genocide. I have been in enough workshops where these discussions take place to know that when genocide is the subject, African Americans bring up the Middle Passage and cultural genocide. The recognition of those events is very important to them, and that’s what I was talking about: what a delicate process it can be to balance what each group feels they need to have acknowledged.
But if you want to get down to brass tacks, the largest and most devastating genocide was that of the Native Americans, hands down. Entire Nations wiped off the face of the earth. Eliminated entirely, every last man, woman, and child. Others losing 90% to 99% of their population — even now there are small tribes staring imminent extinction in the face. There you have it: my personal opinion on the question of genocide on the North American continent.
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@Solitaire
Yes, but isn’t everyone here already recognizing that?
That brings us back into Oppression Olympics again.
But is there anyone here who is failing to acknowledge that genocide also?
The problem here is more about the ones which have been denied, not the ones that we already fully acknowledge and recognize.
Maybe we need a post on how to “quantify a genocide”, but it is difficult to do that without it creating another Oppression Olympics game.
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That was another privilege I almost was going to mention. My brother is a university basketball coach. Yet he has been passed over dozens of times as the institutions have specifically expressed or implied that they only intended to hire a black coach for the positions.
I originally didn’t want to mention this, as I imagine that blacks might be disadvantaged in other fields where some employers prefer to hire Asians (eg, back office systems programmers, maybe?).
It still won’t be acknowledged as a privilege, however, until a white person co-signs it apparently.
My brother did find another position last year, but he had to move out-of-state, curiously to a HBCU, that has become majority white in recent years. I suppose that it is difficult to attract blacks to move to the center of Appalachia.
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So the Asian Superiority thread has now flipped to the Black privilege argument.
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“So the Asian Superiority thread has now flipped to the Black privilege argument.”
@MJB
It’s beginning to read more like a long list of Asian Grievances against Blacks, and other PoC – virtually everyone except Asians! Oh, and Muslims and Middle Easterners!
These _____ are the equivalent of Race Realists — of the asian variety!
Where’s my teeny tiny (sympathy) violin at?
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@Solitaire
Regarding the names. The questions for me is whether or not they can get away with just putting their initials on a resume and names like Jamal or Marcus can not be shortened to sound more white. I will ask my friend who is hr rep. for a well known company. She will be able to give more insight into whether or not such actions are even passable.
In the mean time that is why this type of grievance is one I can not take seriously, because of the fact that it is not something blacks can always easily get away with.
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@michaeljonbarker and Fan …
That is exactly what it has turned into because some of these “privileges” are not even a privilege. For example the sports one, I’m blacks and I would not even be considered for basketball (too short), football (not a male), or baseball (not interested). A lot has to do with body type in my opinion, which no one can help.
On the flip side to talk of Asian privileges…. “oppression Olympics”.
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@Gro Jo
Interesting you mention that. Here is a post from The Love Life of An Asain Guy
“I see way too many Asian activists so wrapped up in their activism that they step into a lane that only Black folks can stand in.
This is NOT okay. Shit, some of us will DEMAND that Black folks do the work for us:
“What about us Asians?!”
“YOUR ACTIVISM DOESN’T INCLUDE US ASIANS!”
NO, MF! It just doesn’t work that way!!! Let them take care of themselves! They need to support each other more than we need a second hand.
Besides, historically, all of the social progress made by the Black community has trickled down and quenched EVERY OTHER POC GROUP’S thirst. Black issues (voting rights, workplace discrimination, gentrification) ARE POC ISSUES.
Don’t be selfish. Sit back, observe, listen, amplify, and repeat.
“When you’re in a black group, you have to keep in mind you’re not black. You just have to be sensitive. We have to be appreciative that the black nationalist struggle is a nationalist struggle.” – Yuri Kochiyama
P.S. Happy Birthday, Yuri!”
https://www.facebook.com/theLLAG/?fref=nf
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@ Sharina
“Regarding the names. The questions for me is whether or not they can get away with just putting their initials on a resume and names like Jamal or Marcus can not be shortened to sound more white. I will ask my friend who is hr rep. for a well known company. She will be able to give more insight into whether or not such actions are even passable.”
Please let me know what she says. I’m interested because it is, as I wrote, something my partner and his colleagues advise but with reluctance. It would be interesting to know whether it’s even effective. I’m sure that once people are to the stage of filling out official forms, they have to provide their full name, but I do believe it’s possible to conceal it at the time of initially sending out your resume.
Just going from my own personal experience, I worked for several years with an Korean American woman who used a white-sounding nickname. I know the initials of her Korean given name but to this day do not know what the initials stand for. I asked a couple times, but she said it sounds like something vulgar in English and she was too embarrassed to say. Growing up, she had taken a lot of grief from being taunted about her name. I guess if I really wanted, I could use one of those identity background searches on the internet to find out, but the point is that in her professional life she was able to adopt a nickname and use it without ever revealing her true given name to probably 95% or more of the people she worked with.
I also have three white family members who are the 3rd or 4th of their name and have always gone by a nickname since childhood (for example, my one uncle is named Hiram but somehow got nicknamed Pete as a child). Although they aren’t doing it for ethnic reasons, all of them have continued in adulthood to use their nickname as their given name except on official forms.
The way it is done is on the top of the resume or on a business card, someone whose name is Maria Josefina Santos would write “M.J. “Josie” Santos. And actually one of the examples you gave, Marcus, is easily shortened to Marc or Mark. But you are correct that unless someone changed their first name legally, there would be forms in the HR office with their full name.
Now that I think about it, this is also a big issue for people transitioning because even if they have legally changed their name, the paper trail of their college transcripts, birth certificate, etc all have a name that reflects the other gender. That is not quite the same issue, but it does mean their official papers can reveal a secret that could keep them from getting hired for discriminatory reasons.
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@Fan
LMAO! Too funny!
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It is true that 19th century Chinese immigrants in the US suffered greatly from poor working conditions, physical violence and inflammatory media attacks. They also faced organized resistance by Euro-Americans (especially labor unions) and a series of White Supremacist laws designed to deny them entry, residence or citizenship. According to an article by Professor Yunqui Zhang,
(Note: the website with the original article is no longer active.)
However, the Chinese were not helpless victims. They fought back with labor actions and lawsuits in America. They were not able to gain much traction until the Chinese back home in China planned and carried out a masterful action that had dramatic results: an economic boycott of American goods in 1905.
According to Professor Zhang: The Chinese in China …”were outraged by the American mistreatment of Chinese immigrants and were ready to take actions to support the cause of their Chinese compatriots in the United States. The Chinese decided the most effective form of protest would be an economic boycott of American made goods. “…[Chinese] merchants, as the leading group of the boycott, stopped ordering or selling American goods, mostly consumer goods such as cotton textiles, petroleum, matches, cigarettes, flour, and other items in daily use—soap, candles, cosmetics, hardware, and stationery.”
The 1905 boycott spread to all of the major cities in China and cost American manufacturers and merchants $30 to 40$ million dollars in lost trade and revenues. That would translate to billions of dollars today.
US businesses were so exasperated by the boycott that they even broached the subject of revising the Chinese Exclusion Acts. American labor unions and anti-Asian groups resisted those moves. The actual boycott lasted less than a year and was eventually undermined by the Chinese government frightened by the passion and unity of the Chinese population.
While the boycott did not achieve its stated objectives, it did have one major impact. According to Iris Chang’s 2003 book, The Chinese In America, (pages 142 to 144) anti-Chinese harassment, anti-Chinese mob violence and inflammatory media attacks fell dramatically.
Anti-Chinese attitudes didn’t change and the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 remained in effect until 1943, but violent behavior such as lynching became unacceptable. The Chinese Boycott of 1905 imposed a real financial cost that the US business class was not willing to pay and they muzzled working class Whites.
That one action, over a century ago, produced lasting results. It is one reason why Chinese Americans and other Asian American groups can count on one hand recent victims of state violence or mob violence. The boycott was a master stroke——it bloodied the noses of major White players (such as merchants, publishers and politicians) in the US and gave them a lesson they haven’t forgotten for decades.
Mahatma Gandhi made this comment about the the Anti-American Boycott of 1905:
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@Kiwi
Please provide a link.
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@ Kiwi
Do you have free access to the journal article through your school? If so, could you please quote the relevant text?
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@Kiwi
The link led to a one page preview of Greenberg’s Black and Jewish Responses to Japanese Internment.
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@ Afrofem @ alia
Do you think it would help any in these types of discussions if the word “privilege” was reserved for Euro-Americans and white privilege? Instead of saying, “As an African American, I acknowledge I have such-and-such privilege,” would it be easier to say something like “I acknowledge that such-and-such is a form of racism that your group deals with and my group is not likely to encounter.”
Privilege seems like such a heavily weighted word. I’m not saying the word is the crux of the matter, but I wonder if that particular word sticks in the throat.
I know that for myself as a woman, it is easier to admit to white privilege or heterosexual privilege than to gender-related privilege.
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@ Kiwi
NUL = National Urban League?
.
.
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I thought from what you wrote upthread that the group sent a letter to FDR specifically praising the Japanese-American internment. But this is still bad. I see your point.
Just curious: what does the article say the Jewish response was like?
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Solitare asks,
“Do you think it would help any in these types of discussions if the word “privilege” was reserved for Euro-Americans and white privilege?”
Exactly. I was going to bring it up yesterday and then decided that the thread was already derailed and didn’t need any more side issues.
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@Kiwi
OKCupid showed that Asian male get a higher response than black men as far as replies to women go
Princess Diana dated an Asian Doctor
http://www.vanityfair.com/style/royals/2013/09/princess-diana-love-hasnat-khan
Had she dated a black guy, that would have caused a much bigger commotion. But a lot of non black men seem to think that lots of non-black women have this hidden obsession for black men.
This is not completely untrue
But the fact is a black man who wishes to consider romantic options outside of the black community will face many substantial challenges. The typical black male is not that hot of a ticket as far as non-black women are concerned
True, but as a black man if you do fail a shit test, you’re beyond finished. Even though black men seemingly have the “assumed sexual” advantage when approaching, the margin for error is razor-thin. Nothing is more unattractive than a black beta male.
Most times when I’ve failed a single shit test I have rarely been given a chance to redeem myself, if at all. Even when my game was air-tight to that point, if I took the smallest bite of that beta chum I could almost see the attraction drain out of her body.
That’s because black people have been front and centre in the national conversation on race.
Really. So Asians support black history month ? Really Dude ?
.Well Asian need put in that work. Raise hell. Put your bodies on the line. Do something.
But why is that ? Because black people put in that work
So what exactly do you want ?
Recognition ? OK. Of what ? What have Asians done as a mass of people to fight white supremacy ? Not one or two activists. I’m talking as a group.
I’m talking masses of Asians protesting as a group, like Blacks in Ferguson or Baltimore and numerous other cases. I’m talking about Asian people starting groups, giving talks, writing books, make films about challenging racism white supremacy
BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU WISH FOR
You really want Asians to be seen as less intelligent, more violent ? Is that what you want ? Or do you just want Asians to be in discussions of race without having to lift a finger ?
Bullying is not good. But in comparison to the thousands of black people hung and shot then it does not seem as bad and what did black people do in the face of this terrorism ?
We put in that work.
We campaigned marched, protested, put our lives on the line. I don’t know how many times I have to say this dude. But if you want change then you have to sacrifice, will some Asians die in the process ? Yes, but that’s the ticket to freedom
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@Solitaire,
Maybe it would be good if everyone took a breather and watched this MTV Decoded video about privilege.
Why Does Privilege Make People So Angry? | Decoded | MTV News
(https://youtu.be/qeYpvV3eRhY)
Words like “privilege” and “racism” are things that everyone has and exercises. It is not limited to whites or just those perceived as being non-black. Asians enjoy privileges that blacks are less likely to enjoy. Blacks enjoy privileges that Asians are not going to enjoy as much either. Each of them will enjoy some privileges that even whites have problems taking advantage of. Everyone has privilege in one way or another, and it is not just limited to race. Able-bodied persons have privileges that disabled people do not. Cis-gendered persons have privileges that transgendered do not.
If only we could get through this hurdle, then we can proceed to addressing real inequality in the society.
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Non whites have rights but white people have privileges. The problem is white supremacy interferes with the rights of POC so whites have privileges by default.
Privilege: a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people. An advantage and a benifit.
So when you say Blacks or Asians have privileges it means only within the context of white supremacy and ignores that these same rights are ones white people take for granted.
“education is a right, not a privilege”
So we have a public school system that doesn’t apply rights equally. We have a justice system that doesn’t apply rights equally. We have an economic system that doesn’t apply rights equally.
Non whites have a right not to get profiled by the police but whites have the privilege to travel anywhere and only worry about getting pulled over if their speeding.
Non whites have a right to travel and not get asked for their papers. Whites used to be waved across the boarder because they looked “American “.
Non whites have a right to determine the children’s education and a say in the curriculum. But our white Federal family knows better.
Non whites have a right to economic empowerment. But that can’t happen if loans and venture capital are not made available. And any successful Black community historically has been burnt to the ground. What whites do today is point to their success and suggest the problem is systemic within your community. If you just worked as hard as we do ….
Non whites have a right to do whatever drugs they want and not expect to spend a draconian amount of time behind prison helping employ a prison gourd.
Non whites have a right for a complete return of all civil rights lost when incarcerated. Upon release after their “payment” to society has been completed, their right to employment, voting, gun possession ect should be returned immediate. The current system creates a caste system where upon release they are marginalized in society and the parole system is designed to suck them back into prison. .
Non whites have a right to vote without having to show two forms of ID. You think they ask white people for two forms of ID ?
Non whites have the right to form their own political parties. It took 15 years for the Libertarian party to get represented on ballots within all 50 states. And their 95% white. So good luck with that.
Non whites have a right for politicale representation free from white people interference. Instead they are tokens of diversity bought to support the very system that oppress the constituency.
Non whites have a right to own their own bodies, minds and thoughts the same way that white people take their autonomy as a given.
Non whites have enalianable rights that shouldk not subject to interpretation by a white centric Supreme Court. Magical words on old parchments created to consolidate and justify American Imperialism as well restrict the rights of others through arcane definitions of humane value are not to be repeated and seen for what they are.
Non whites have a right to live their lives free from white people interference and to form their own communities that reflect their values and culture.
The right to life and the pursuit of happiness free from interference that harms no one is universal and a part of the human soul. These are self evident rights that white supremacy attempts to make into privileges that they can control, regulate and take away.
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* Are not to be respected
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@ Jefe
First of all, let me say that personally I’m in complete agreement with your statement:
“Words like “privilege” and “racism” are things that everyone has and exercises.”
That is the framework that I myself operate with.
However, I do think Michael Jon Barker has a point when he says this:
“So when you say Blacks or Asians have privileges it means only within the context of white supremacy and ignores that these same rights are ones white people take for granted.”
I also noticed in the MTV video that whenever Franchesca Ramsey gave examples of how she was privileged, it was always within a context where she is clearly part of the majority (abled, heterosexual). Whereas the difficulty in this thread is that of discussing relative privilege among different groups of POC, all of whom are part of the minority.
I threw out that suggestion not because I don’t believe everyone has privilege, but because I was wondering if it would help to make the discussion easier. I’m wondering if the same acknowledgments could be made without invoking the word privilege itself, so that the issues still get talked about but perhaps with less tension.
I don’t know if it would help or not. It’s just a suggestion, and I would be interested in everyone’s opinion.
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@Kiwi
“Assuming its national records are complete, the NUL’s national board held no discussions at all about the evacuation order or made any public or private statements about it. In fact, in September 1942 its staff conference passed a resolution expressing to the President its deep appreciation of steps taken toward the elimination of racial discrimination in the war effort which it defined as applying to all Americans regardless of race, religion or national origin.”
NUL is not clearly defined.
If NUL is the National Urban League, they had a very good reason to express appreciation to President Roosevelt in 1942. In 1941, A. Philip Randolph, president of the Sleeping Car Porters Union organized a massive march on Washington. They wanted to pressure FDR to open jobs in the war industries to Black workers.
In response, Roosevelt issued Executive Order 8802 establishing the Fair Employment Practices Commission (FEPC) to investigate claims of racial discrimination and promote fair hiring policies. FDR did this to avert the German propaganda bonanza of thousands of Black folk marching for equal treatment in this bastion of liberty, America.
Executive Order 8802 was not perfect, but it did have the effect of significant employment gains for African Americans in the war industries making ships, planes, and tanks.
This was all a part of the Double V Campaign that Black people waged World War II. The Double V Campaign was spearheaded by Black newspapers and organizations to urge Black people to support the war effort abroad to complete victory, as well as, support a victory at home for justice and equality for Black citizens.
That campaign and other actions by Black people had no bearing on the plight of the Japanese Americans during the war. Black people then, as now, faced a plethora of life threatening conditions in this country. Poverty, constant discrimination and media defamation which often led to mob violence, vigilantism and state violence (police).
The level of networking present in our society today was pretty non-existent in the 1940s. There were few, if any, trans-ethnic coalitions. Every group fended for themselves against a hostile and shameless White population.
Two exceptions were the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) and The National Council of Jewish Women (NCJW). Their public objections to the treatment of the Japanese American community were not sustained or coordinated. They had the courage to speak up when others were in blame and revenge mode.
Other ethnic groups were so far away geographically that they may as well have been overseas to the bulk of the Black population located in the South and Northern cities. Most Chicanos were in the Southwest, Native Americans on far away reservations and most Asian Americans were concentrated on the West coast and Hawaii.
Attempts to infer Black people’s lack of response to Japanese American internment during WWII as responsibility for that internment is a counterfeit argument. A people lacking power and the ability to protect their own lives are not responsible for the actions of a powerful majority.
That was true then and it is true now.
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@michaeljonbarker
Good points.
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@Solitaire
Perhaps the term “privilege” should be used. Direct words can be useful in discussing concepts, even contentious ones.
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Correction:
This was all a part of the Double V Campaign that Black people waged during World War II.
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@ Afrofem
“Attempts to infer Black people’s lack of response to Japanese American internment during WWII as responsibility for that internment is a counterfeit argument. A people lacking power and the ability to protect their own lives are not responsible for the actions of a powerful majority.
That was true then and it is true now.”
.
As Wesley Snipes would say… Damn Skippy!!!!
Thank you ma’am for showing that these (Kiwi/jefe) grievances against Black people are at best specious arguments! Just as the argument they maintained on the reparations thread: that any $$ payout to Black Amerikans would certainly cause a rife between Blacks and other PoC.
Thanks to these two _____, Black/Asian relations here are moving backwards. At least we now know where we stand with these Asian ‘Killers of the Dream.’
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@mjb there was a real process of ‘south asian’ immigration into central nj during the 90’s and 00’s well i’m not in a great headspace right now but ‘asian’ ‘here’ seems to mean more like china and down south east in asia
also i think me and john, my korean buddy in senior year i think we got high scores in the town 1400 on the sat he got 7 and 7.
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@ TeddyBearDaddy
“Many of the lands that are now China and in South East Asia Kampuchea (Cambodia) Empire had taken slaves to build their huge temples. I should know because my family history can trace back to a faction of these slaves.”
I don’t mean to pry, but I would be interested in hearing more about this aspect of your family history if it is something you’re comfortable with sharing.
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@ Afrofem
“Attempts to infer Black people’s lack of response to Japanese American internment during WWII as responsibility for that internment is a counterfeit argument. A people lacking power and the ability to protect their own lives are not responsible for the actions of a powerful majority.”
Is Kiwi arguing responsibility? Or just a failure to be allies when this injustice occurred?
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@Solitaire
My friend stated that in the past she has advised people to use only an initial, but that really depends on the industry they are going into. She further stated that using just an initial is not wise because you do not want to hide anything from the company you want to hire you.
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@ Kiwi @Afrofem
Kiwi wrote:
“I noticed that wasn’t the first time Afrofem has played the shifting goalposts tactic on me and others.”
I want to make it clear that I wasn’t accusing Afrofem of shifting goalposts. I simply am asking her to take a step back and look at Kiwi’s argument again.
Kiwi, it could well be that there’s some comment of yours upthread that Afrofem felt either stated or implied responsibility. I would like to see what her response is.
I have been interpreting your argument all along as being that African American organizations failed to act as allies when Japanese Americans had their civil rights and very liberty stripped away, but not as being that they were responsible for that injustice.
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@ Sharina
Thank you for the info. I’ll pass it on.
So basically, anyone who doesn’t have a name that sounds white middle-class boring is screwed. 😦
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@Afrofem
Here is the problem I have with kiwi’s claim of: Blacks wrote a letter to FDR condemning him for the internment.
1. He is trying to say it was blacks who did this based on the actions of NUL.
2. I have not found anywhere on the web that supports that idea. None the less I will research, but this article is interesting on how this black lawyer was a defender of the Japanese during the war.
http://www.pri.org/stories/2016-02-23/despite-their-history-japanese-americans-and-african-americans-are-working
@TheHipHoprecords
When it is pointed out that Asians are not putting in work then the response becomes…”they were killed off”. But the truth of the matter is unity goes a long way regardless of how big the group is. I see the small population argument as an excuse for the lack of work that is being put in. Of the Asian activist working now, they can only get so much done on their own. They need other Asians to be involved and their involvement is lacking.
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@Solitaire
Sad as it is that is the case. This is why I push for blacks to start creating there own companies and engage in fair hiring practices. People can not help the name they are given and it reduces opportunities in a society that punishes being different.
I have a disorders and treatments research paper due, but I will try to respond to anyone I missed (MJB) later.
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@ Kiwi
“So when commenters talk about Asians clinging to Whiteness as if to imply that’s a specifically Asian phenomenon, that needs to be challenged. Blacks have done it and continue to do so today, just as much as other people of color.”
So you’re not denying that Asians do and have done this?
But you are saying that African Americans (and other racial minorities) do and have done this too?
(“some not all” implied)
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When I look at a map of the world I see that Asia starts in the South Pacific Seas Goes north to the North Pole, proceeds west until you reach the Mediterranean Sea. It includes India and all of the Middle East Nations!
A lot of different individuals, races, and ethnic groups are living in Asia! I imagine Black people are living in Asia and are called Asians!
Why have most of the conversation just included Chinese?
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You are a joke. Elijah Muhammad was nearly lynched and sent to jail during WW II. Your response to that fact was that he was afraid to get killed, and anyway, he wasn’t respectable. Not only do you read mind 70 years in the past, you can even determine what could have happened!
Did blacks put Japanese Americans in the internment camps? You make a big deal about some letter sent by NUL! The shocking thing is the fact that you haven’t been laughed out of court!
I asked you to name one Chinese American who opposed the war as E. Muhammad did. When you can show me such paragon of ‘Asian’ solidarity, then I’ll take your nonsense seriously.
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@Solitaire,
I know you are addressing that to Kiwi and I cannot speak for him at all. I cannot only talk about what I have observed.
The reply of course is that Asians also often find themselves clinging to whiteness. It will be more common among those Asians who marry whites, or the others who have lost sight of the original purpose of “Model Minority” and have been fed the White Liberal narrative (until some of those individuals get their “wake up call” at one point in their lives). Even back during Jim Crow, we saw Asians attempt to cling to whiteness just in order to get access to things such as white schools.
But, I have also witnessed an inordinate amount of blacks clinging to whiteness at the expense of Asians, Native Americans and Latinos. I saw it since my childhood during the Vietnam War era, and it continues today as we saw with Chris Rock (but of course, we can find many instances going back to the 19th century). I saw it during the American Indian movement in the 1970s and today with the recognition of Native American tribes or appropriation of Native American culture and symbols. You see it manifest in other ways, eg, as the gatekeepers of diversity programs and training and as seizing control over the national narrative on race. The thing most disheartening thing is how many have actually internalized white supremacy and white colonization of their mind.
Of course I saw Native Americans cling to whiteness at the expense of others too. Walter Plecker’s intent to turn all Natives into colored during Jim Crow caused many of the tribes to ban their members from marrying blacks. Some tribes made direct attempts to expel black members from their tribes.
There is no group of POC who is innocent of clinging to whiteness in order to gain more “privilege” (as it were). In order for the POC to work together, we have to recognize and acknowledge that that has been happening all along.
We have been taught a few prominent examples of how Asians and Native Americans and Latinos have resisted white supremacy and embraced the black power movement and joined the cause for black civil rights and anti-racism. Maybe we should share the prominent examples of where blacks have resisted whiteness and joined the cause for Asians, Natives and Latinos.
If only one could think of such examples. The closest thing on this blog was David Fagen, and that was for the cause of Asians still in Asia.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/10/04/david-fagen/
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@ alia
Ok. Please note that it has been established that neither Kiwi nor Jefe deny that Asians have and do cling to Whiteness. It is established that they both have just said and acknowledged above that this has and does occur within the Asian American community.
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@ Jefe
Last winter I read a book called We Are Still Here: A Photographic History of the American Indian Movement by Dick Bancroft and Laura Waterman Wittstock.
I don’t have it at hand, so I’m going from memory. But a lot of the book was about a cross-country march that happened in the 1970s. Native Americans started walking in California and went all the way to DC on foot, with many joining along the way as they passed near the larger reservations and cities. If I remember correctly, at one point when they were still pretty far out west, they were getting infiltrated by white hippies and other hanger-ons who were causing trouble. Dennis Banks reached out to the black community, I think the NAACP and possibly the Black Panthers. At any rate, he networked with them to figure out how to deal with the hippies and also arranged for the group to sleep at black churches along the way. So this could be seen as one example. There may be other instances of Black Power groups and AIM working together in the 1970s.
By the way, this is also a good example of a civil rights march that never gets taught. I think it was called The Broken Treaties March. They were continually harrassed along the walk and then again when they set up camp in DC.
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@ Jefe
I have a long comment which is in moderation (I hope; I hate when that happens because I always think the internet gremlins ate it).
The march which I talk about in that post is The Trail of Broken Treaties.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Broken_Treaties
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@ Kiwi
Comment deleted for use of racial slur.
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I was wrong about the whole march taking place on foot. I think, though, there was some amount of walking each day and then the people on foot would join up with the rest of the caravan to drive part of it.
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@Solitaire
Thanks for reminding us of this. The “Trail of Broken Treaties” would be an excellent subject for a post on this blog. Maybe some of what you remembered would also be found in Vine Deloria Jr’s book on the subject.
We need more examples of how people might work together to fight the injustices caused by America’s white supremacy doctrine, if anything, just to diffuse this Oppression Olympics game. But also as a model on how people might work together.
First of all, we have to kill the Model Minority stereotype, probably the most divisive doctrine to infiltrate the national narrative on race relations in our generation.
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It’s news to me that anybody died fighting to save European Jews! They died fighting the enemies of their government as the Buffalo soldiers did before them. All soldiers from all nations die for the same reason. You’ve been watching too many war propaganda films. You can’t think of a single Chinese American who went to jail in solidarity with his ‘Asian brothers’ can you? I’m not surprised. Your taunts are stupid, and signs of your desperation. Give it a rest.
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My dear dopey Kiwi, Blacks died in that war for the same reason soldiers died in all war. Being raised on a steady diet of political bs, you are free to believe what you want.
As for the “loon”, I’d like you to demonstrate the same courage he did. You are forever whining about Obama killing Arabs, well, do something about it that can get you in trouble with the authorities. You have the example of the “loon”, Muhammad Ali, the Berrigans and their friends, as well as a slew of other brave “loons” who stood up for what they believed in. I suspect you don’t have the gonadal fortitude to practice what you preach. I could be wrong.
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Why would I waste time on that? Which part of you’re a joke was unclear to you? You are here to insult people. I’m here to insult you. Got it?
Yep, just as I thought, an empty drum making a din. You want Black people to do your job for you? I thought your kind were hardworking, another model minority myth debunked.
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As usual, we understand each other, no need for pretense.
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Kiwi:
I realize there is nothing I can do to stop you from insulting me in my absence. Have fun with that. I’ve had some life changes and am very busy taking care of my family these days. However, I do check in every once in a while.
As for this post, there are quite a number of race conscious whites like myself who have lived in East Asia and/or have Asian spouses. Almost universally, there is a ton of respect for the heights of Asian cultures. I personally am pretty content to live among Asians. However, I think all ethnic groups have some natural sense of self-preservation and affinity. I don’t want to see whites lose their will to live and die out. I am particularly sad to see Europe, the ancestral homeland, falling victim to non-European immigrants who will replace the native populations in a couple generations. For now, that’s not something any Asian or African country has to worry about.
Kiwi, the observation about your aunt is interesting. I think in SoCal a majority of Asians i see around are recent immigrants (probably similar in NorCal). They tend to cluster in groups of their own and speak their own language. Of course, if you can speak that language, they are generally welcoming (for me at least). I think the language/cultural thing may be the reason your aunt had the experience she did. I don’t think white people overall feel more threatened by Asians than NAMs.
I’m hopeful in seeing more and more whites become race conscious these days. It’s inevitable as we move towards minority status everywhere in the world. I hope people will be able to see that charges of “racism” are now most frequently used to shut people up. Just like racial epithets. If someone is using racial epithets, ok, we can say that is “racist”. However, if someone makes a statement, let’s first ask ourselves is it true or not before yelling “racist”. If a statement is true, then it can’t be racist, unless we accept that the truth is racist.
I’ve given previous summaries of my take on things, but I want to leave one for any new people here:
The West is going through an existential crisis. 50 years ago, the US was 90% white. In another 50 years, given current trends, it will be closer to 1/3 white (of course, the trend will continue unless some action is taken). Europe is also facing replacement of most of the native populations.
Meanwhile, the population of Africa continues to explode. The UN estimates keep getting raised. It is now set to quadruple and be over 4 billion by the end of the 2100. It could be 8 billion out of a global population of around 12 billion by 2150. Those folks won’t stay in Africa if they don’t have to.
Idiocracy is coming. The intelligent are having fewer and fewer kids, while they enable the less intelligent to breed with abandon. This is a recipe for replacement. However, getting rid of Whites and East Asians (whose birth rates are far below replacement) won’t lead to more equality. To the contrary, the rich will get richer (2 parents leave a good inheritance to 1 kid), while the poor will get poorer (a single parent gives a pittance to 5 kids).
The US of the future will become more and more unequal and divided. Whites and East Asians will continue to be the most successful. IQ, SAT and all similar tests consistently show a huge gap in performance, with consequences for results later in life. Look at Brazil or any South American country. This is where we are heading. More private schools (or de facto segregation by zip code), more gated communities, more private security, more servants and less community trust and cohesion.
Ironically, the multiculturalism abagond supports on this blog is going to make things much worse for his progeny. Hispanics and Asians have no sympathy for blacks. Blacks should wake up to this. The democratic party isn’t doing them any favors. (Thousands more blacks have been killed nationally since black lives matter protestors convinced cops to not police actively. The numbers don’t lie.) They have the most to gain from protecting our borders like all wealthy non-Western countries do.
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Re: Abagond
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“Ironically, the multiculturalism abagond supports on this blog is going to make things much worse for his progeny. Hispanics and Asians have no sympathy for blacks. Blacks should wake up to this. The democratic party isn’t doing them any favors.”
Textbook example of the white racist tactic of “divide and conquer.”
White racist spends majority of post expressing fears that white Americans and white Europeans are going to be overrun and outbred by non-whites, then attempts to foment divisions among non-whites to reduce their ability to challenge white supremacy.
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Gro Jo wondered if their were any Chinese Americans who opposed Japenese internment. In googling around I found none and instead found some evidence that Chinese Americans ectually benefited economicly from Japanese internment. Like white farmers some Chinese took over some Japanese business and the Chinese helped racialize the Japanese. Their loyalty to whites resulted in the repeal of the Chinese Exclusion act in 1943 even though the Japanese internment began in 1942. Part of this was that the Chinese and American governments were Allied during WW2.
Kiwi seems bothered that Black Americans didn’t protest enough and therefore are morally deficient. But those same Black Americans didn’t benifit economicly from Japanese internment in the same way that whites and some Chinese did.
The American government as well as those whites and Chinese who gained financially from the Japanese internment are those who are morally deficient.
I am also skeptical that Blacks fought in WW2 for the same reasons that their white counter parts did. Were Blacks fighting America’s enemies so that Jim Crow could continue to be the law of the land in the U.S. ?
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Abagond wrote the above piece for people like Biff. People who believe in Asain superiority nonsense.
It doesn’t bother me that whites are becoming a minority. Dropping birth rates, early death ect points to the Western Empire beginning to shrink in dominance. I’m more concerned that humanity will survive as opposed to a specific race.
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“Kiwi seems bothered that Black Americans didn’t protest enough and therefore are morally deficient. But those same Black Americans didn’t benifit economicly from Japanese internment in the same way that whites and some Chinese did.”
@ MJB
Kiwi seems … like a lot of things, but I’ll forego that for a nano-second!
Given his consistent misbehavior, Colonel Disingenuous won’t let something as mundane as the TRUTH stop him from coming up with new distortions, twists, goal-post shifting, red herrings, strawmen and outright lies. Because that what (patently false complainers/) LIARS do!
He’s becoming more entertaining than Mirkwood ever was! 🙂
I’m liking this comic relief. Now if only he would use his super (liar) powers to find an Asian female …. who might tolerate the incessant telling of lies!
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Kiwi said,
” I would argue that Asian “success” is often seen as a reason for Whites fearing, hating, and wanting to cut Asians down.”
That’s true. But their are plenty of other whites who have benefited financially from Asain American business as well white owned businesses and corporations that have generated wealth because of “free trade” coming from Asain countries. It works both directions.
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@MJB,
Whereas part of your argument may be true, it is also a rehash of the oppression olympics trope.
Japanese immigrants and Japanese Americans “benefited” from the Chinese Exclusion act and the Chinese American genocide. They were the ones that largely filled in the gaps left open by the Chinese who disappeared in the late 1800s and early 1900s.
The main impetus for the repeal of the Chinese Exclusion act was because China was an ally with the USA govt during World War II, as you mentioned.
Admittedly, some Chinese Americans did seize economic opportunities left open by the disappearance of Japanese Americans removed for internment during WWII. A big reminder of this today is how Chinese Americans control the fortune cookie business and made it associated with Chinese American culture, even though it was originally imported from Japan. However, it would be disingenuous to pin the internment on them. Besides, Japanese Americans outnumbered Chinese Americans at that time by at least 2 to 1. Part of their slack was made up by others as well, such as Filipino and Mexican Americans, and especially as you mentioned, by whites.
Jews used to operate businesses in black communities until at least the 1970s. Most of that economy was picked up by Koreans, South Asians, Arabs, etc. Do we attribute the abandonment of Jews from black neighborhoods on the groups that replaced them? Was either side “morally deficient”?
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Jefe wrote:
My question to you is why did you refrain from making a similar argument to counter Kiwi’s nonsense about Blacks being somehow responsible for Japanese internment?
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Your point is that you want some of that affirmative action money from shrinking university budgets, so you play the “Asian” victim, oppressed by all other races.
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@grojo,
I am under no obligation to respond to anyone’s particular comment whether yours or Kiwi’s. I may agree or disagree with any argument you or he makes, and still I may or may not have any comment about it.
Well, one possible reason could be that Kiwi never made that argument, as Solitaire pointed out here:
(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/the-asian-supremacy-argument/#comment-316121)
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Linda says,
Solitaire’s questions are very valid…. Kiwi, what is the point of your argument?
you seem to be slinging out a lot of accusations against black Americans of the 1940s, and trying hard to make something stick to the wall.
but you seem to be making your arguments based on only 1 source, “Black and Jewish Responses to Japanese Internment” by Cheryl Lynn Greenberg
https://www.jstor.org/stable/27500003?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
a source that only you can see because only 1 link was provided and it’s just an abstract — which doesn’t make reference to anything you have said.
so your arguments at this moment, don’t seem to make sense.
it would be nice if you were able to cut and paste the EXACT text that states and backs up your arguments; or at least, provide a different link, with a different author, to support this theory.
also, what is the significance of what supposedly occurred during WW2 (concerning black Americans supposedly not supporting the Japanese) and black Americans and Asians of today?
I don’t see the connection or the point you are trying to make.
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I’d like Biff the clown to explain how and why African, Asian and European IQs diverged. While he’s at it, I’d like his explanation for the success of a number of Africans, whose collective IQ is 70, who managed to outperform their White and Asian peers.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmond_Albius)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApfdPsQCNoI)
( http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/05/piscataway_15-year-old_girl_he.html
http://allafrica.com/stories/201503120794.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/02/gabrielle-turnquest-florida-teen-youngest-bar-exam-uk_n_3696998.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular
http://www.leparisien.fr/societe/momo-17-ans-a-integre-une-grande-ecole-22-01-2008-3295994739.php#xtref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com
http://www.liberation.fr/societe/2010/07/07/deesse-dji-ala-la-plus-jeune-des-bachelieres-2010_664538
http://www.blackpast.org/perspectives/russia-s-black-entertainment-empresario-remarkable-saga-fyodor-fyodorovich-tomas-freder)
https://www.linkedin.com/in/ufot-ekong-b36bb979
I’d like your take on this article: http://www.unz.com/article/towards-a-theory-of-everyone/
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Kiwi,
I’m trying real hard to remain unbiased and see your argument that “black Americans were supportive of the Japanese getting put in Internment Camps.”
but it’s difficult because the argument you are promoting is based off of 1 author, Cheryl Greenberg, who seems to be pulling her conclusions from almost no evidence at all.
Using the book you provided, I only found one other article that touched on what you originally said
But it is a blog that discusses Greenbergs book, and the blog writer basically said the same thing you did (almost word for word):
http://amst103-2012.blogspot.com/2012/04/black-and-jewish-responses-to-japanese.html
Thursday, April 19, 2012
Cheryl Greenberg stated that “The internal minutes of most groups shows that Japanese Internment was not discuss” —So what? this is not proof that black people, as a whole group, did not care or object to Japanese Internment.
Other than Cheryl Greenberg, I can’t find anyone else who has come to the same conclusion that black Americans supported Japanese Internment.
I personally don’t like when people make conclusions based off of what 1 Jamaican person said or did, then try to apply it to me, as something I believe. Buju Banton sings about killing gay people… he doesn’t represent the beliefs of me or my family, just because we are all Jamaicans.
A few people can’t speak for a whole Entire group – there is no Borg in real life.
So I don’t understand Why this theory by Cheryl Greenberg should be used or applied to represent the beliefs or thoughts of black Americans.
Greenberg’s conclusion is not based on objective polling of the various populations of black Americans across the USA.
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Jefe, don’t make me laugh. Kiwi holds Blacks responsible for Japanese internment, Obama’s war machine, Asians not getting their fair share of the oppressed minority pie, etc. You are free to give him a pass, but spare me the lie that he isn’t making inflammatory racial arguments.
Confronted with evidence giving the lie to his claims, he gets on his high horse because the people indicated weren’t of high enough social stature for him.
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based on this article, it states that black media in California and various individuals in the general public, did what they could to support the Japanese-Americans.
http://www.pri.org/stories/2016-02-23/despite-their-history-japanese-americans-and-african-americans-are-working
So despite what Cheryl Greenberg claims, it seems that there is documented proof that amongst regular folks in the US population, some black Americans did object to Japanese Interment, and vocalized their objections.
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Blacks have been the vanguard of the struggle for human liberation in the modern world since 1791 when they rose up and said enough. Fact, not opinion.
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@ Jefe
I’m not making an Oppression Olympic argument.
Note how I worded my statement. I’m pointing out where the moral deficiency lies. First in the actions of the U.S. government (white supremacy by default) as well as in the direct actions of individuals, both white and Chinese,that played a part in the theft of property of other American citizens.
The U.S. government unconstitutionally detained American citizens against their will under the precept that they were “spys”. That is immoral.
Secondly the theft of the property of American citizens by other American citizens is immoral.
The Chinese were at war with Japan and driving out an army from your country is a valid use of force. What isn’t valid is the theft of property within the U.S. of Japanese Americans by both whites and Chinese Americans because of war.
This is a quote from an online article called “Chinese Americans in San Francisco during World War II” by Yifan Huang, 2015.; For some reason the site won’t let me post a link but its worth reading.
“For much of the time that the Chinese have been in America, they have faced discrimination and animosity. However, World War II changed much of that. When Japan became the U.S.’s enemy after Pearl Harbor, the Chinese in America found themselves in a position of opportunity to expand their economic and social influence. They distinguished themselves from the Japanese as much as possible, accepting and sometimes contributing to the racialization of the Japanese. After Japanese internment, Chinese merchants took over formerly Japanese-owned businesses. Furthermore, white perceptions of Chinese Americans changed due to the alliance between the U.S. and China, leading to the repeal of the Chinese Exclusion Acts in 1943.”
This paragraph shows the race realism of the 40’s.
“The December 1941 issue of Life magazine had a feature titled, “How to Tell Japanese from the Chinese,” where they characterized the Chinese as having a “parchment yellow complexion” as opposed to the Japanese’s “earthy yellow complexion” (81). According to them, the Chinese were tall and slender, while the Japanese were short and squat (82).”
An article called “Confiscations from Japanese Americans during WW2” goes into great detail how white farmers went about stealing Japanese American wealth.
“Internment was publicized as a national security measure responding to a military threat. Contemporary observers, however, wondered if internment was actually directed against an economic threat that some Americans saw in fellow Americans of Japanese descent. One half of employed Japanese-Americans on the West Coast were in agriculture. They were the largest force in California’s fruit and vegetable markets; agricultural experts expected thirty-five percent of California’s 1942 truck crops to come from Japanese-Americans. Japanese-American farms in 1940 were worth $72 million plus $6 million in equipment. Per acre their farms were worth $279.96, in contrast to the average value of $37.94 for all California farms.”
In today’s dollars that value comes to over a billion dollars, $1,300,000,000.
http://www.fear.org/RMillerJ-A.html
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Michael Jon Barker @ Jefe
“I’m pointing out where the moral deficiency lies. First in the actions of the U.S. government (white supremacy by default) as well as in the direct actions of individuals, both white and Chinese,that played a part in the theft of property of other American citizens. After Japanese internment, Chinese merchants took over formerly Japanese-owned businesses.”
Linda says
MJB, does this really prove deliberate theft on behalf of Chinese Americans.
Because if we go by the this statement as valid proof, then it could be said that black Americans also committed theft against the Japanese-Americans
Based on the article I mentioned above, black Americans moved into Little Tokyo, once the Japanese were removed:
http://www.pri.org/stories/2016-02-23/despite-their-history-japanese-americans-and-african-americans-are-working
I could say the same thing about black Americans stealing from the Japanese-Americans that you are trying to say about Chinese-Americans of that time period.
but I won’t… because I recognize that back then… segregation and Jim Crow was in control and non-White people were steered in the direction that the white supremacist American society and government wanted them to go… whether they liked it or not
I’m sure there are also instances where the Chinese-Americans and other Asian groups were supportive of Japanese Americans.
As I asked Kiwi, I seem to have missed the point of why this particular time period is being brought up to prove that people of colour did not support each other?
an argument which is a lie, because they very much did back then
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Linda said,
“Because if we go by the this statement as valid proof, then it could be said that black Americans also committed theft against the Japanese-Americans”
If that is the case then those individuals who participated in that theft are morally deficient as well.
Thanks for posting that part of history.
What you can’t do is collective all Blacks or Chinese for the actions of some within their communities.
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MJB @
Linda says: no, not really… black, Chinese or other Asian people weren’t running sh’t back then in the USA… a vacuum was created by the white government, and the vacuum was filled by the mandate of the white government.
MJB @
Linda says: that is my Exact point
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@Linda
Thank you for your input. I appreciate that you were able to dig up items that eluded me.
Kiwi’s initial allegation of Black complicity in the internment of Japanese Americans occured in the Peter Liang thread. I posted a statement from a coalition of Asian American groups who denounced the disposition of the Liang case.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/02/20/peter-liang/#comment-313659
Later in the thread (comment-313777), Kiwi stated, “Generally speaking, Black Americans were indifferent, if not complicit with the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II. A lot of this had to do with Blacks supporting the war effort in order to prove their loyalty to White people their country, which would later turn out to be a useful bargaining chip to advocate their own civil rights.”
In my own research, I also found the the summary of Greenberg’s book and the blogspot post that quoted Greenberg as a sole source. My conclusion (comment-313818), then and now is the same:
❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖❖
I have noticed a pattern where if Kiwi is losing an argument, he will toss out one fallacy after another to keep his opponents off balance and wasting their time and energy refuting something he can’t prove.
I have fallen for this ruse repeatedly, as have other commenters. Perhaps a better approach to Kiwi’s fallacies is to put the burden of proof on him. If he says X,Y and Z are true, he should provide quotes or links to prove his assertions.
Most of us don’t currently do this because we come to the comment section of this blog to share information, learn, network and de-stress from the racist micro-agressions of the day. (Sometimes macro-agressions of a lifetime.)
Perhaps Kiwi’s purposes are different. I don’t know and I don’t care. All I do know is that if Kiwi makes inflammatory statements, he should be ready to back them up completely —— as in he does the work, not his fellow commenters.
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Linda says,
“does this really prove deliberate theft on behalf of Chinese Americans.”
That’s really comes down to personal intent as opposed to an opportunity that “fell into your lap” so to speak.
The article I am referring to describes the connection Chinese Americans had with mainland China. It could be that because of the war going on between Japan and China, the Chinese here felt the taking over of Japanese assests as part of their war effort and justified because of the war.
As far as American Blacks their is no argument about
the effects of Jim Crow and taking advantage of the empty housing in Little Tokyo seems less like theft.
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Afrofem wrote:
“as in he does the work, not his fellow commenters.”
Which Kiwi did not do here:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/the-asian-supremacy-argument/#comment-316256
“If you go back and actually read my comments, the point of my posts on Black/Japanese American relations was quite clear and your questions were already answered.”
—————-
@ Kiwi
This thread is very long and even if someone does go back through and reread carefully, there’s been so much arguing over details that it’s easy to get bogged down.
In light of that, could you please provide a succinct answer to the question Linda asked?
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@ MJB
At this point, isn’t it really splitting hairs? What I think the whole thing boils down to is: While some people raised objections to the internment of Japanese Americans, the nation mostly went along with it without question or reflection. The only real place that we might be able to claim there was effective resistance was in Hawaii, where officials refused to intern the entire Japanese American population (although there were specific individuals arrested and detained).
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@ MJB
And even in Hawaii, historians have raised doubts over whether that was due to a commitment to justice or more because of the very large Japanese American population, the internment of which would have caused significant logistical problems and economic losses.
Hardly anyone of any race stood up for Japanese Anericans, and those who did never mounted an all-out campaign.
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Agreed Solitare.
One thing this thread has done is broaden my understanding of the Japenese internment and how that affected various communities.
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@ Sharina
Thank you for posting the link to that article (#comment 316130) about Black and Japanese American relations.
I like that the writer, Natasha Varner, wrote a fairly balanced article that neither sugarcoated nor inflamed the history of relations between the groups.
I was struck by this paragraph:
I often think when I read an article, see a TV newscast or look at a film that highlights divisions between Black people, Latino-Americans, Asian-Americans, Native Americans and Arab-Americans, who benefits from our anger, resentment, fear and disdain of the non-White other/em? What was the the true purpose of that article, newscast or film?
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@Solitaire
Who is the commenter @alia?
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“Chinese Americans or other Asians cannot count on Blacks or anyone else to be their allies”
I just want to point out that I have read the converse of this statement many times in the comments section of this blog: “African Americans cannot count on _____ or anyone else to be their allies.”
My question: how to get to the point where all POC groups can count on each other as allies?
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@ Afrofem
Sorry, I meant “everyone.” That’s taken from et alia. It’s common parlance on some other forums, and I didn’t realize it wasn’t here.
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@ Solitaire
Thanks. I am more familiar with the use of the term et al.
Learning is good.
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@ Afrofem
Right — et al. is the more commonly known abbreviation of et alia.
Now that I think about it, “@ alia” as an internet phrase probably originated with some language geek showing off their knowledge of Latin. The hard sciences aren’t the only fields with nerds!
:p
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Kiwi @ Make of it what you will. I like your optimism of Black/Asian relations, but history tells me that in the event of a crisis like the Japanese American internment, Chinese Americans or other Asians cannot count on Blacks or anyone else to be their allies, at least not when it comes down to support from Black civil rights organizations, who all either remained silent or agreed with the internment’s legality.
Linda says,
based on history, I don’t see how you came to that conclusion… you can’t use Apartheid America to reach a conclusion about modern day black/Asian race-relations in America
As to black Civil Rights groups, black organizations did protest Japanese incarceration… so as I said, Cheryl Greenberg talking about a few groups does not equal ALL and you can’t draw your conclusion based off of 1 source
the conclusion you are making does not hold up the argument you are making.
The Chinese-Americans were not in solidarity with the Japanese during this time period either… so if anything, if we use your argument’s litmus test, the question would be:
since both groups (Chinese and Koreans), left the Japanese high and dry during Japanese incarceration (that is also a historical fact), what makes them a more trustworthy ally today to the Japanese and not black Americans…
There was no real “pan-Asian” solidarity back then, so why shine the spot light on black Americans as a collective group to try and prove “group think” of today, based on a past historical event
Not one group, regardless of race or colour, stood up “en masse” in support of the Japanese. Not one group rode out in the street and blocked traffic and screamed at the top of their lungs…so, why are you singling out black Americans as the group that was “trying to kiss white people a’s” and supported Japanese internment.
when Chinese and Koreans-Americans were the biggest white people a’s kissers of all, back then— they did their utmost to distance themselves from the Japanese, and they also “embraced the war effort”– they were not riding and dying for the Japanese and their plight.
I don’t see any documented proof that black Americans supported the white American governments decision to place Japanese people in Internment camps.
The relationship between black Americans and the Asian community is long and there is plenty of documentation showing that Black American and Japanese organizations did support each other during the early 1900s; and they also supported each other during the Civil Rights era.
there is still solidarity today… it’s not a perfect relationship but it exists.
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Afrofem,
this thread was so long and convoluted that I really just wanted to try and cut to meat and potatoes.
I love history
but what scares me, is when people try and use it or tweek it to support their own theories.
That is what has happened to black people and other non-white groups of people in western History.
our people’s roles in historical events have been omitted, distorted, or diminished, in order to suit the narrative of the majority group.
I don’t support that, and I don’t want to see “us” (people of colour) do it to each other in an attempt to say “my group is better than yours or my group has suffered more than yours”
we all have grievances that we can pull out and sling, but I just want everything to be kept in perspective.
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Kiwi, you cheap bastard, buy the effing article and post it.
Right, because Chinese Americans can always be counted on as allies. Stop, I can’t laugh this hard. Note to any black naif, the odds are better than 50% that your Chinese friend will leave you in the lurch when it counts.
A black doctor went looking for an apartment, only to be told that it was not available when he showed up. He was suspicious, so he asked his Chinese ‘friend’ to inquire if the apartment was really unavailable, said ‘friend’ hemmed and hawed, came up with all sorts of excuses why he shouldn’t get involved. The guy is a civil rights lawyer! After listening to his bs excuses, the doctor moved on to a white acquaintance who confirmed that he was, indeed, the victim of racial discrimination. So much for POC solidarity.
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Kiwi,
as to the whole Peter Liang situation… I don’t really have time to expand because I have to go
but I will say this.
As I told you before, I don’t support how CAN went about their protest
they could have easily got general black American support for their cause on Peter Liang but they came at it the Wrong Way…
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@ Linda
I love history also. Not just African American history but everyone’s history.
You made some good points and I’m glad you weighed in.
Reading your comments made me think about a lecture I attended years ago. Elaine Brown, former chairwoman of the Black Panther Party. She was quite a dynamic speaker.
One portion of her speech I found most interesting. She said that there was always some harassment of the BPP from local and state law enforcement types. Par for the course.
She said that things really heated up when the BPP started making national alliances with the American Indian Movement, The Young Lords (Puerto Ricans), Chicanos, a handful of Asian Americans and a group of Appalachian Whites. That is when the full force of city, state and federal law enforcement came crashing down on the Party.
The BPP had committed the cardinal sin of building alliances between groups of Americans who are kept carefully divided as a matter of policy.
People are harder to control when they work together.
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@ Afrofem
Yep. That’s been the policy since Bacon’s Rebellion in 1676, if not earlier.
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The Asian people showed their true colours in the Peter Liang case. I would never support a black cop who shot an unarmed Asian person or even a white person.
Black people haven’t done a thing to Asians. We never bombed their countries, nor oppressed these people. Yet, many Asians have a hatred for anything Black that would rival a damn 18th Century Klansman.
Strangely enough, many of these people don’t hold a damn thing against the very people that literally destroyed their countries–White people
I believe much of their racism to blacks is REACTIONARY. It’s literally the colour of black skin,because orientals dislike other dark Asians like Filipinos and Cambodians. You see Asian women walking around with umbrellas on sunny days so as to not get too dark.
Many of these non-black groups who are racist against blacks act as if blacks should just sit back, shut the hell up, and take the mistreatment
That’s the main reason why you have many black men have gone completely insane.
The WORST thing Black people can do is to try and ally or try to form some kind of truce with these people. If there’s one thing i’m sick of it’s black people constantly trying to form friendships with other races just because their not white.
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18th century Klansman! Are you joking or confused? The Klan was created in the 19th century.
This claim is ridiculous, of course, you can be friends and allies. You write as if nobody black ever stabbed you in the back. If you are black, that must have occurred to you a number of times. You are correct that one shouldn’t make a fetish out of interracial friendships. All friends should be treated as friends until they prove to be otherwise.
We, as soldiers for the USA, France and other imperialist powers bombarded, pillaged and raped Asians. I’m sure they did the same to us for the same reason.
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@michaeljonbarker
“Non whites have rights but white people have privileges. “—Thank you for putting this into perspective. After some thought this is a more accurate way of looking at it. As I typed, I myself, started to put privileges into parenthesis as it might not quite be the proper word to use here.
“I’m not making an Oppression Olympic argument.”—This is precisely why I made the remark that in some cases Oppression Olympics is being used as a silencing tool. I have not seen any instance where you have made such argument. Anytime the action of Asians is brought up it becomes a matter of claiming oppression Olympics to avoid a very real issue. To better put it…this thread is starting to read like the Arab slave trader argument or blacks sold their own. Point out Asians clinging to whiteness and the response is…”blacks do it too”. Yet we know blacks do it too, but it does not change the fact that Asians engage in to the point that some of the even believe in the model minority stereotype? That some of them use it to their advantage? Nope.
@Afrofem
Anytime. It is good to see Linda provided the same link to show case that blacks did not simply stay silent. Some did speak up.
Thing is whites benefit, but I think each group is so focused on their own progressing that they play right into it. Even in the article you posted it is very clear that they fear unity. Keeping people divided ensures that no group will be strong enough to really challenge them.
Going a bit off topic here, but I have really been thinking along the lines of other groups want blacks to basically hype up their cause. Few if any will put together efforts, but of those that put it together I have to wonder how many are asking for black help? If they are not is it out of fear that blacks will ask them for help that they will not want o engage in? To me it would be rude for blacks to go be front and center of movements for other groups, because they should be front and center of their grievances and blacks should just support. Same goes with black grievances. That is why I often feel that non-black groups want blacks to put it together and do the leg work and they just be the face of it. just my thoughts.
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@Sharina
“Few if any will put together efforts, but of those that put it together I have to wonder how many are asking for black help?”
In my West Coast city, the activist community operates in a tight network across racial and ethnic lines. Even though the people in various communities don’t always get along, the activist organizations that represent them frequently work together.
In 2001, a group of Asian American students were stopped and harassed by a cop allegedly for jaywalking. This article gives a version of the event:
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/unequal-profile/Content?oid=8030
What happened next really got my attention. Black community activists I was acquainted at the time told me how a variety of Asian American activist groups sprang into action and flooded the mayor and police chief with angry calls. Behind the scenes, local Black, Latino, and Native American groups contacted the Asian groups and offered support.
The Asian American groups reached back and had one response, “we got this!”. They had a meeting with the mayor (I wish I could unearth that photo) where the Asian American women in charge were glowering at the mayor who looked like an errant school child. Priceless!
While non-Asian groups were happy enough to see the mayor and police chief squirm a bit, the incident and how it was resolved highlighted who got listened to by city officials and who was ignored. The linked article brings up that stark difference with this comment:
To your original question, I don’t think other groups really ask for Black help that often. From what I’ve read and heard, Black people will offer to help and sometimes the help is accepted with Black people in a supporting role. Sometimes the other groups will simply say, “we got this!” and handle situations themselves.
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@ Kiwi
What Gro jo writes is not a contradiction.
Within every group thier is a soul, a consciousness to be free, “the vanguard in the struggle for human liberation” is internal to human beings.
And then their are the external realities. You have to feed your family. You have to do jobs you don’t like and that may include being sent off to war.
His larger point is that it is the havoc of Western Imperialism that causes people of color to war against each other and to not trust and to say “I got this” instead of banning together and breaking the chains.
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Asian people are not blacks people’s friends or allies.
Honestly ? I can’t think of many times a black person has stabbed me in the back and you are talking to a person who grew up in a black neighbourhood and has had only black friends
Every amount of serious suffering, rejection, disrespect, hatred in my my life has come at the hands of a non-black person. This is why I can’t stand Asian people and I can’t stand white people. I’m just being honest.
But here’s the thing even though I hate white and Asian people with every fibre of my being and that hatred comes from the very pit of my soul.
I would not support a black cop that killed an Asian or white person. I would not go on marches. I would not raise money for them as many white and Asians do when their cops kill blacks
Whites don’t want to be friends with blacks. Same is true of Asians. Honestly I don’t really think you understand who your dealing with. I don’t think you understand the level of anti-blackness they have in them.
USA lost the Vietnam war. Right ?
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” on Mon 23 May 2016 at 05:04:04
Kiwi
gro jo said of Blacks:
We, as soldiers for the USA, France and other imperialist powers bombarded, pillaged and raped Asians.
So much for Blacks being the “vanguard in the struggle for human liberation”.”
My question to the Asian moron is who are the Gurkhas and what service do they provide the British military? In 2015, they celebrated 200 years of faithful service! So much for Asians being “oppressed”.
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“USA lost the Vietnam war. Right ?”
Yes, but only after wasting the lives of thousands of blacks.
“Honestly ? I can’t think of many times a black person has stabbed me in the back and you are talking to a person who grew up in a black neighbourhood and has had only black friends”
As rare as you claim it is, it’s not zero.
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Kiwi,
You are starting to flog a dead horse.
By focusing on how blacks may have failed to support the causes of certain Asian groups, or on how certain Asian groups failed to support the causes of blacks or other groups in the past makes it a combination Oppression Olympics / Thief-thief argument, the very thing that the white supremacist construct of the Model Minority stereotype had aimed to achieve in the first place.
Once you have reached a consensus that that stuff happened, then we have to move on to find solutions to the current problems. Those current problems could certainly be needed revisions to our historical narrative. Maybe instead of just using the racist tropes mentioned in the previous paragraph, we could discuss what an alternative narrative might look like.
We need to focus on deconstructing the Model minority and find constructive ways to address the Oppression Olympics game. Of course it will be difficult if some people are wedded to the idea that we have only one oppressor and the dichotomous idea that the oppressed either support the oppressor or they support a single designated oppressed group.
I have seen how Abagond has attempted to evolve over the past 5 years and to fill in a couple of his own blind spots, and that has made me feel very optimistic. Moreover, given the credibility that he has to readers of his blog, he can be very instrumental in communicating this.
Not all of this dead horse flogging is pointless, of course. At the very least, it helps provide Abagond fodder for some of his posts.
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@ Kiwi
This is what I meant about picking your battles. Gro jo actually called THHR out for stereotyping all Asians as untrustworthy. You could have (a) responded with “wow, thanks” or (b) not replied at all but instead you (c) picked one part of his comment to rekindle the argument you two were having upthread.
Why would you even? Just to — as Jefe pointed out — keep flogging a horse that’s long past dead?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Kiwi said,
“In Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq, Blacks were the oppressors while Asians were the liberators. Not sure who the “vanguard for human liberation” is here.”
Your seem to forget Asain Americans make up part of the U.S. armed services, not just Blacks and Hispanics.
During WW2 Japan had its own Imperialism going on.
I believe most people are good by nature. Wanting to be free is natural. Nobody wants to be oppressed.
It’s true that some people who have sociopathic nature’s end up as politicale leaders or mass murders.
Afrofem, Hip-hop records, and Gro jo have valid opinions that do not need to reflect each other or represent a singular truth. This is a blog isn’t meant to be an echo chamber.
But less just keep beating a dead horse ……..
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I wasn’t making a concession to Kiwi when I pointed out the fact that blacks, as agents of imperialism, killed Asians and said Asians did the same to Blacks for the same reason.
White supremacy wasn’t solely the work of white men. People like general Alfred A. Dodds (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred-Am%C3%A9d%C3%A9e_Dodds), colonel Camille Mortenol (https://vimeo.com/107446130) who was in charge of the aerial defense of Paris during WW I, Félix Éboué (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A9lix_%C3%89bou%C3%A9), and their Asian counterparts, did their bit to erect and maintain the system. The fact that such people existed gives the lie to Biff’s claim that blacks can only destroy what whites have built. Nonsense, whites wouldn’t have built sh*t without the collaboration of such Black and Asian collaborators. The problem with the conversations on this blog is the cretinous tendency to reduce everything to race, where each race is at perpetual war with each other. Races have also collaborated to create the imperfect world we know.
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@ Kiwi
I didn’t say you owed Gro Jo anything. I just said that was one possible response. You could have simply let their exchange go without comment from you.
My point was, you’ve been complaining that when a black poster voices anti-Asian stereotypes, you feel that most of the time none of the other black commenters call them on it. But when it did just happen, out of all the actions available to you, the path you chose was to goad that person up on arguing the other side again. Not an effective strategy if what you really want is to build more awareness and allyship.
Another point you might consider is Gro Jo loves to bait you because he can count on you to answer the challenge. I’m not sure he believes half of what he says. (Not saying that to excuse him; I very much dislike that type of behavior, especially with sensitive topics like race relations.)
For that matter, I did not mean to imply that Gro Jo said what he did to THHR out of any sense of concession to Kiwi. I didn’t read it that way. And to me that was even more reason that Kiwi should have let it go without comment.
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“I’m not sure he believes half of what he says. (Not saying that to excuse him; I very much dislike that type of behavior, especially with sensitive topics like race relations.)”
My dear, I believe every single thing I write, unless it was written for effect, such as calling Kiwi the grandson of Harry Lee. Spiritually, he is. I don’t need, nor am I looking for acceptance from anyone. If people want to give Kiwi a pass for his racist taunts, I’m not. He seems to think that he deserves an explanation from Blacks for Obama’s policies, etc. The only thing he’ll get from me are insulting replies to his insults.
LikeLiked by 2 people
@Kiwi
“Even Sharina did it (talking about eyelid surgery done by Asians in Asia and then sticking that to Asian Americans, like they are the same group).”
You are so sad so sad and a shameless liar. You want to argue so bad you will just make up things to do it.
This is what I said to HipHopRecord who,by the way, was talking about Asians in an Asian country.
While your sexism is wrong (although I felt a hint of sarcasm) I don’t believe what you said was wrong. Too much focus was put on falsely calling you an uncle tom and a refusal to acknowledge that clinging to whiteness exists in a lot of Asian countries. There was dismissal by calling you names rather than acknowledging the issues.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/the-asian-supremacy-argument/#comment-315898
It was never applied to Asian Americans. So once again you are falsely claiming someone is using stereotypes where they are not. Using this as a means to excuse your racism and anti-black attitudes.
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So, the Asian moron, the childish Asian fascist a/k/a little mister irony wants to play dueling quotations? Very well.
On a thread that had nothing to do with Asians, you attacked me for pointing out that had Napoleon not betrayed the ideals of the French Revolution and attempted the re-enslave the people of St- Domingu, the Louisiana purchase would not have occurred.
Native Americans might have found allies in the “French” army led by Toussaint Louverture and retained their independence.
In order to antagonize me, you came with some bs about how I was calling for the oppression of Indians by Blacks!
I paid you back in kind by demanding you condemn the racist behavior of your Chinese kinsmen toward a young woman of Black and Chinese lineage. Apparently, like Harry Lee, you feel that Chinese should immunize you from being racist.
Screw you. What follows is the exchange that led to you and Jefe trying to pull the Asian stereotype argument to shut me up:
”
on Thu 4 Feb 2016 at 19:44:22
gro jo
Her main flaw isn’t the Ethnic Contribution trope, but the distortion of the Louisiana Purchase. The heroic struggle of my ancestors to remain free is given short shrift. How short? Well it didn’t rate a mention in a video that’s ostensibly about “Black History”!
tankermottind wrote: “It could get even crazier and wilder than that. Without the US becoming a great power on the back of African slavery, it would have been under the cultural domination of European great powers, AND the British Empire would have been much weaker. Which means…
France and Germany dominate the world.”
Nonsense, Germany didn’t become a nation until after the Franco-Prussian War of 1870, sixty-six years after the Louisiana Purchase. A united Germany failed to dislodge the British as top top dog in two world wars.
If Napoleon hadn’t been the racist prick he was, he would have given Toussaint Louverture and his battle-hardened army a free hand to claim French territory on the North American continent.
I can imagine a powerful alliance of “French Negroes” Allied to the Seminoles of Florida taking on Andrew Jackson and Tecumseh’s Confederacy doing the same in Ohio against William Harrison, with the support of such “French” army. Blacks would have been freed from bondage several generations before 1865.
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on Thu 4 Feb 2016 at 21:08:47
Kiwi
I find it ironic how on a thread that criticizes the devaluation of Blacks, the conquest of Natives is still seen as a good thing.
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on Thu 4 Feb 2016 at 21:40:07
gro jo
And that’s why we “love” our little Mr. Irony A/K/A Kiwi. Did you find it equally ironic that Ms. Lou Jing and her mom were demonized by a segment of Chinese society in 2009? We all harbor racist tendencies, even you!
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on Thu 4 Feb 2016 at 21:46:13
Kiwi
@ gro jo
The difference between you and me is that you don’t give a damn about justice or equality. Given the chance, you would be just as bad, if not worse than Whites.
PS: I have about as much to do with “Chinese society” as you have to do with “African society”. Do you find it equally ironic that Blacks rob and kill Chinese who move to and work in Africa?
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/10/02/the-perpetual-foreigner-stereotype/
Liked by 2 people
on Thu 4 Feb 2016 at 22:42:46
gro jo
Kiwi, how the hell are you old buddy? We haven’t locked horns in a while. My, your such precious hypocrite.
I decry the death of any human being anywhere as long as he wasn’t asking for it. I don’t find the deaths of law abiding Chinese doing business in Africa ironic, just sad.
You are the one who refers to himself as Chinese-American so don’t blame me for assuming you retained some affinity to that culture. Are you now entirely Americanized? If you are, do you mind telling me what that entails? Has you family abandoned the millennial culinary, story telling, and moral traditions of China? Are you a “white American”? We both know that there’s no such thing as just an “American”, since that appellation is just a shorter version of “white American”. Is that what you aspire to?
Your original comment shocked me since I didn’t see who your barb was aimed at. Forgive me dear friend for lashing out at you with sarcasm, I should just have asked you to explain yourself.
“The difference between you and me is that you don’t give a damn about justice or equality. Given the chance, you would be just as bad, if not worse than Whites.”
Who says I’m not? Have you found some redeeming value in me?
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on Fri 5 Feb 2016 at 00:56:29
Kiwi
@ gro jo
My goodness, your racist hypocrisy has no limit.
Imagine if you had just swapped “Chinese” for “Jewish”. You’d be decried as an anti-Semite. You are like those White people who assume all Blacks speak in Ebonics.
You are the one who refers to himself as Jewish-American so don’t blame me for assuming you retained some affinity to that culture. Are you now entirely Americanized? If you are, do you mind telling me what that entails? Has you family abandoned the millennial culinary, story telling, and moral traditions of Israel?
But anyway, what I find most fascinating is how you regard Asians as an acceptable target of racism, made evident by your unabashed stereotyping.
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on Fri 5 Feb 2016 at 03:54:01
gro jo
Kiwi, my dear friend, how have I stereotyped you? Were you or were you not raised on the adventures of Sun Wukong, the Monkey King, and other Chinese legends? Do you or do you not eat Chinese food? Do you or do you not venerate your ancestors? Are you so totally unmoored from your ancestral culture that you refuse to acknowledge belonging to the Chinese culture, even at a remove?
Your substitute of Jews for Chinese was quite funny, that’s why I like you. Let’s run with your emendations and look at what you’ve wrought, maybe you’ll be a bit less emotional.
How would you describe a person who doesn’t go to temple, knows nothing about Jewish history, legends and customs?
Kiwi, dear boy, drop the “Asian” bs, you don’t know or speak for Asians. You are Chinese my friend and you desperately want to be an “American”, tout court. Not my fault if the USA has not advanced to the point of granting your wish.”
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@ Gro Jo
I cannot speak for Kiwi, but at first I misread your comment as suggesting Toussaint Louverture’s army would have attacked and defeated Tecumseh’s Confederacy. It took me another read to figure out that you were actually saying Tecumseh would have attacked Harrison farther north and been more likely to prevail since Louverture would have had Jackson’s forces tied up elsewhere.
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@ Sharina
You shared a link about eyelid surgery in South Korea and then mentioned “the Asian community”, which you compared to African Americans. If that is not the Perpetual Foreigner stereotype, nothing is.
@ gro jo
Yes, on a thread that had nothing to do with Asians, you brought up Asians, not me. jefe rightly called you out for bringing up the Perpetual Foreigner stereotype because the only reason you had for doing so was because I was Asian American.
@ Solitaire
Sharina’s and gro jo’s responses and refusals to own up to their racist stereotyping only confirms everything I’ve already said. They are no better than TheHipHopRecords, who serves as little more than a racist uncle to take scrutiny off of themselves.
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@Kiwi
“You shared a link about eyelid surgery in South Korea and then mentioned.”—First of all In the quote you presented I did not share a link at all. Secondly the link I shared did not just speak on double eye-lid surgery. Thirdly the quote is Solitaire’s take on the issue involving internalized racism of Asians, which she compared to those of African Americans. She spoke of that on her own accord and I responded based on that, but the link speaks on the western look, which includes lips, nose, etc. Lastly Asian community does not equal Asian American community only. So you really are reaching. Perhaps if you followed our exchange more carefully you would have gotten that.
” If that is not the Perpetual Foreigner stereotype, nothing is.”—Seeing as it is not then I am going to just go with nothing is, because it is clear you don’t know the difference between what is an actual perpetual Foreigner stereotype and what you like to throw at as one to accuse people of a bias they don’t have.
Do better.
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As a side note, these are thoughts and opinions I have always expressed on the matters of Asians, but notice because Kiwi is upset and throwing a tantrum that I magically am now engaging in stereotypes.
Same old song, but getting old.
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@Kiwi
“Obviously, since you lop Asian Americans together with Asians in Asia.”—Considering that none of the quotes you presented show that I am speaking of Asian Americans at all vs your deluded ideas…..I am going so far as to say obviously not.
“I didn’t need to point it out because unlike you, she owns up to it.”—I am not going to own up to something I am not doing. For half of this post you screamed model minority, but when you could not show proof of that you switched to perpetual foreigner stereotype. When you can no longer show proof of that I am sure you will switch to something else. tsk tsk tsk.
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“Yes, on a thread that had nothing to do with Asians, you brought up Asians, not me. jefe rightly called you out for bringing up the Perpetual Foreigner stereotype because the only reason you had for doing so was because I was Asian American.”
Kiwi, I’m a fan of yours, your hypocrisy never ceases to impress. My comment had nothing to do with the perpetual foreigner stereotype, but with the perpetual sanctimonious hypocrite stereotype. You, my friend, are the poster boy for such. After you attacked me for a thought I didn’t express, i.e., the domination of Indians by Blacks, I decided to test your moral fiber by giving you a clear example of racist behavior by people with which you share racial ties. Instead of condemning them you decided to play the victim, aided and abetted by Jefe. Instead of backing down, I lustily, tore into your sophistries. Jefe’s little history lesson about the Chinese being in North America before Blacks turned out to be as bs as the rest of his claims. See my comments in the Asian brain drain thread.
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“That, my friend, is as clear an example of the Perpetual Foreigner stereotype as one can get. I suppose the internment camps were simply to “test the moral fiber” of Japanese Americans after an attack by “people with which they shared racial ties”.”
That, my friend, is a clear example of the perpetual sanctimonious hypocrite stereotype argument I’ve come to expect from you.
When will you do what Brian Willson did to stop Obama from killing more Arabs? When will you get around to condemning John Yoo, a fellow Asian, for doing as Obama did? How about granddad, sheriff Harry Lee?
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@ Kiwi
If you go back to my original comment about eyelid surgery(https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/05/12/the-asian-supremacy-argument/#comment-315939), I’m the one who switched things up from Asians in Asia to Asian Americans (re the journalism students I wrote about).
I couldn’t bring up the article Sharina linked to on my antiquated cell phone, so I hadn’t read it when I responded to her, but I’ve read other articles about the practice both in the US and elsewhere, dating at least a decade back, as well as spoken personally to Asian Americans who were considering having the surgery done. I extrapolated my comment from those sources. Probably I should have stated directly that I hadn’t read the specific link that Sharina provided.
So having not read the article, I’m the one responsible for conflating Asian Americans and Asians overseas.
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@ gro jo
“If Napoleon hadn’t been the racist prick he was, he would have given Toussaint Louverture and his battle-hardened army a free hand to claim French territory on the North American continent.”
.
.
.
claim French territory
After which, what?
Give all that land back to the Native Americans and relinquish any French claims to territory on the North American continent?
Is that what you’re theorizing would have happened?
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it would have just been more land for the louisiana purchase!
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“After which, what?
Give all that land back to the Native Americans and relinquish any French claims to territory on the North American continent?
Is that what you’re theorizing would have happened?”
“After which, what?
Give all that land back to the Native Americans and relinquish any French claims to territory on the North American continent?
Is that what you’re theorizing would have happened?”
No. The USA would have been forced to deal with the issue of slavery sooner and wouldn’t have been able to force Indians off their lands so easily.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seminole_Wars
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tecumseh's_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louisiana_Purchase
http://www.okhistory.org/research/airemoval.php
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@ gro jo
But it certainly seemed like you were suggesting the French would have not dispossessed the Native Americans of any land that the French armies won from the US. You also seem to be suggesting that the French would not have oppressed the Native Americans on any land that the French claimed. There is nothing in the colonial history of France in the Americas, Asia, Africa, the Middle East, Polynesia, and elsewhere to suggest this would have been the case. What makes you think it would have been any different in your alternative history scenario?
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” What makes you think it would have been any different in your alternative history scenario?”
Leaders of the Indians such as Tecumseh making alliances of convenience that would have allowed them to play the USA, France and Britain against each other.
Since some of the Indians owned slaves, an army fighting for the freedom of Blacks would have fought them as well as the army of the USA.
Indians weren’t saints. During the Civil War, some of them fought for the Confederacy.
The Choctaws massacred black troops at Poison Springs (http://usctchronicle.blogspot.com/2011/04/remember-poison-springs.html).
Kiwi’s claims to the contrary not withstanding, I wasn’t making a Black savior scenario. I made it very clear that such alternative was as farfetched as the claims made by the scenarios others came up with. Kiwi decided to take me on and I had to “slap” him down by pointing out his racial hypocrisy using the Lou Jing affair.
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@ gro jo
Thanks for the link. Hmmm!
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You are welcome.
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Thanks for the link gro!
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@ Kiwi
Just to clarify a bit more: I’m still not taking sides in this argument between you and Sharina. But in that particular instance, it was my fault, not hers. If anyone is to blame for confusing Asians and Asians Americans in the discussion about plastic surgery, it is me — not her.
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@ gro jo
I find it difficult to understand why you didn’t stay on topic and reply to Kiwi exactly as you did to me. You clarified what you meant about Louverture and the French military, clearing up any misunderstanding that I had about your position. Why drag in a bunch of unrelated topics instead of explaining your stance on the specific historical issue at hand?
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Solitaire,
You asked a question, while Kiwi decided to display his ‘moral’ superiority. That didn’t sit well with me so I confronted him with the racism of his racial compeers. I make no apology for doing so. You are entitled to decide what is or isn’t related. I didn’t see it your way and I still don’t. Kiwi’s racist hypocrisy is germane to the issue under discussion. Like Lordy Murky, he is a “friend” to Blacks as long as he perceives them as powerless.
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@Solitaire
I want to thank you for explaining the situation, but it really took him reading the full context of that and he would have got it himself.
Now I will be first to say I don’t agree with Gro jo’s method. We have bumped heads for that reason among others, but if what Gro jo did is called using the perpetual foreigner stereotype (not saying it is not) then what do we call it when Kiwi uses black stereotypes, throws out Muslims on threads that have nothing to do with them, and so forth?
Kiwi being given a pass for his actions are no different than whites giving a pass to other whites who show obvious signs of racism.
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“Now I will be first to say I don’t agree with Gro jo’s method. We have bumped heads for that reason among others, but if what Gro jo did is called using the perpetual foreigner stereotype (not saying it is not) then what do we call it when Kiwi uses black stereotypes, throws out Muslims on threads that have nothing to do with them, and so forth?”
What’s my method called? Did I or did I not use the perpetual foreigner stereotype, make up your mind? Kiwi’s racism has been on display for a long time, sorry it took you so long to see it.
Kiwi used to be your “pet” until he turned on you. Solitaire’s claim that I should have explained my position better failed to notice that Kiwi wasn’t looking for an explanation: “on Thu 4 Feb 2016 at 21:08:47
Kiwi
I find it ironic how on a thread that criticizes the devaluation of Blacks, the conquest of Natives is still seen as a good thing.
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on Thu 4 Feb 2016 at 21:40:07
gro jo
And that’s why we “love” our little Mr. Irony A/K/A Kiwi. Did you find it equally ironic that Ms. Lou Jing and her mom were demonized by a segment of Chinese society in 2009? We all harbor racist tendencies, even you!”
Instead of answering my question, he started a racist rant : “on Thu 4 Feb 2016 at 21:46:13
Kiwi
@ gro jo
The difference between you and me is that you don’t give a damn about justice or equality. Given the chance, you would be just as bad, if not worse than Whites.
PS: I have about as much to do with “Chinese society” as you have to do with “African society”. Do you find it equally ironic that Blacks rob and kill Chinese who move to and work in Africa?
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/10/02/the-perpetual-foreigner-stereotype/
Liked by 2 people” You were one of the two who liked his reply. Note that he didn’t bother to answer the question I posed.
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@Gro Jo
“What’s my method called?”—-I don’t know what to call your method to be honest.
“Did I or did I not use the perpetual foreigner stereotype, make up your mind?”—-I don’t think you did, but my thoughts on the matter will just be labeled as biased, so it is better to keep an open mind until someone points out how it is.
“Kiwi’s racism has been on display for a long time, sorry it took you so long to see it.”–Don’t be. I take full responsibility for me refusing to see it.
“Kiwi used to be your “pet” until he turned on you.” —-Yes, for not agreeing with him. I know I know. 🙂
“Solitaire’s claim that I should have explained my position better failed to notice that Kiwi wasn’t looking for an explanation”—I didn’t read the exchange so.
“Liked by 2 people” You were one of the two who liked his reply. Note that he didn’t bother to answer the question I posed.”—I am on the thread you are referring to and I don’t see where any of his comments have likes. So what comment are you referring to?
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Correction *So what comment are you referring to?* should be what thread* might just be on the wrong one.
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https://abagond.wordpress.com/2016/02/03/decoded-a-world-without-black-history/#comment-308303
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““Did I or did I not use the perpetual foreigner stereotype, make up your mind?”—-I don’t think you did, but my thoughts on the matter will just be labeled as biased, so it is better to keep an open mind until someone points out how it is.”
Sorry to see that you lack the confidence to stand your ground regardless of public opinion. Why would their, who ever they are, views be more valuable than yours?
“on Thu 4 Feb 2016 at 21:46:13
Kiwi
@ gro jo
The difference between you and me is that you don’t give a damn about justice or equality. Given the chance, you would be just as bad, if not worse than Whites.
PS: I have about as much to do with “Chinese society” as you have to do with “African society”. Do you find it equally ironic that Blacks rob and kill Chinese who move to and work in Africa?
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/10/02/the-perpetual-foreigner-stereotype/
Liked by 2 people”
Note how sheriff Harry Lee’s number one grandson throws the black thug stereotype in my face for daring to ask him his opinion on a racist Chinese mob. Yes Kiwi, the number one grandson jibe is a direct reference to Charlie Chan and blatant stereotyping on my part.
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Sharinalr, my method is called provocation. I throw verbal bricks at glasshouses. I consider myself an iconoclast. I cut through the polite bs to reveal what my interlocutor is really saying, or in your case, I play with you for my and your amusement.
In Lordy’s case, it was confronting him with the fact that as an “anti-racist” he was the worshiper of Napoleon, a notorious racist.
In Kiwi’s case, it was to show that he has a problem with blacks in positions of power, hence his claim that they would be just as bad as whites. My reply to such claim is: Yes, and?
I hope this information has answered any question you have about what I do here.
LikeLiked by 2 people
“I have about as much to do with “Chinese society” as you have to do with “African society”. Do you find it equally ironic that Blacks rob and kill Chinese who move to and work in Africa?”
So many lies stuffed in such short paragraph! The food I eat, the stories I loved as a child, the music I enjoy, the legends I’m familiar with scream Africa via Haiti. Your problem is your discomfort with your racial identity. You have my sympathy. Your black thug jibe puts your racism upfront for all to see.
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@ Kiwi
Have you had any luck in finding out about the murals?
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Kiwi wrote:
“@ gro jo
That begs the question: Blah,blah, blah blah blah an Asian American? Blah blah blah when talking to Black Americans? Blah blah blah.”
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on Sun 29 May 2016 at 10:12:47
Kiwi
gro jo is just as bad as Whites who blah blah blah.”
Asian American, African American? I thought you said that once Asians got off the boat from Asia they lost all affinities to their place of origin? In what way are they Asian, unless, of course they continue to practice their ancestral religious, diets, etc?
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ancestral religions
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@ gro jo
Oh, please. If you lost all affinity to your place of origin, ancestral diet etc., would that make you not black? Would white people respond to you any differently?
Asian Americans who are adoptees raised by white families in a white American cultural environment are still seen as Asian by the white American world and treated as different due solely to their appearance.
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Good grief. What happened in this thread?
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@ gro jo
“Why would their, who ever they are, views be more valuable than yours?”—I don’t really see them as more valuable, but I do try at time to not be confrontational and to see things from the perspective of others.
“Note how sheriff Harry Lee’s number one grandson throws the black thug…”—I see it and I always thought he was using shock as a way to get you to see double standards and hypocrisy. It was not until looking at the Peter Liang thread that I began to even question my idea of him using shock vs him being plainly racist and stereotypical.
“I hope this information has answered any question you have about what I do here.”—It does and that is a fair position to take.
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“Oh, please. If you lost all affinity to your place of origin, ancestral diet etc., would that make you not black? Would white people respond to you any differently?”
What’s your point? Are you trying to back up Kiwi’s absurd claim that once his ancestors got off the boat they underwent some kind of transformation that shed them of all affiliations to their native cultures? If that’s your aim, you’ve failed miserably at it. Coming from you, that would be pretty funny. I seem to recall you wrote something about a clash of culture between you and your husband’s family. If I’m wrong, I apologize in advance.
To answer your question, no white people wouldn’t respond differently to me. We weren’t discussing white people and their views. It may pain you to learn this, nonwhites exist outside the white gaze.
“Asian Americans who are adoptees raised by white families in a white American cultural environment are still seen as Asian by the white American world and treated as different due solely to their appearance.”
Yes, and? You are confused, again, try reading what I wrote without your protector of Asians bias. I see you have no problem with Kiwi’s racist diatribes about Africans killing law abiding Chinese. Why is that?
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@Kiwi
“Sharina was the one who shared the link, not you.”—Yeah in a conversation that was clearly about Asians in Asian countries. Solitaire should not have had to explain it at all, because it was clear. I knew her explanation was a waste of time because YOU were looking for anything to label as an Asian stereotype to begin with, but also because you do not respect her.
You don’t respect her enough to allow her to draw her own conclusion, so you try to fill her head with the idea that “Sharina is so bad”. Forcing your idea of right on her and forcing her to choose a side. Several times on this very post you would give her your behind to kiss, be down right rude to her, and then decided to be sweet and nice when she is useful to you. When she has tailored her response to your liking.
She is free to believe your Bs if she likes, but that is her choice.
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@Leigh
The shyt hit the fan.
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@ gro jo
Oh lord. This is exactly why I gave up talking to you in the first place. You love to derail, you’ll drag in things from old threads to do so, and if it’s about someone’s personal life, so much the better. You’ve never seen an argument you didn’t like and you’ll do whatever you have to in order to “win” the argument. If it means major derailments that go far afield and attacking someone, so much the better. You love to fight. I don’t, so I’m putting you back on ignore.
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Solitaire,
Sorry for not letting you frame the argument to your liking. You came at me with some lame argument, I wasted my time showing you the holes in it, now you accuse me of derailing. You already knew my style, why did you waste your time engaging me?
I politely replied to all your questions, it seems that it’s too much to expect the courtesy from you!
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the same courtesy from you
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@Kiwi
Internalized racism and self-hatred apply to anyone subject to white supremacy. Not just Asian Americans, but Africans as well as people in Asia. So you are still wrong there was not applied stereotype, but nice reach.
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Here is another way to look at it that would still make you wrong.
Solitaire addressing eyelid surgery at that point had nothing to do with my link, but then her take on why Asians do it (whether it be Asians in Asia or Asian Americans). I don’t disagree because it does come from the same place of why any and all groups seek the “white look”.
“Only later, she admitted her statement was wrong because she hadn’t read the link but you had, meaning you applied a stereotype and she didn’t.”—By the standards you are trying to apply (which are false by the way), she did. Not reading the link does not change that in the very comment that link applies to as I stated Asian countries. Nor does it change that hiphoprecord expressed his feeling about Filipinos in the Philippines. So it was very clear.
You are willing to excuse that only on the basis of her being agreeable with you, which only proves my point of how you will throw out the idea that someone is using a stereotype as a point of arguing, but not because they are actually doing it. Cry wolf syndrome.
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I think what this thread has shown is that unifying different groups against white supremacy, opprssion ect will not come about through perceived privileges of others or pointing to mutually shared oppression.
Rather what unifies different people are shared ideologies rooted in a common factor like a religion or politicale philosophy. And it is within those ideologies that common ground is found.
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@michaeljonbarker
I agree, but at the same time I do not want to take this thread as a marker for how things would be.
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@Kiwi
“Internalized racism applies to those who live under White rule, like Black Americans and Asian Americans.”—Says who? Based on the definition it does not say that it only applies to people under white rule. Plus what constitutes white rule better than whites being the top of everything. White supremacy has reach everywhere. Whites in Africa and let us not forget white colonization in Asian countries.
“Your attempt to stretch the definition of internalized racism and self-hatred to include people of color everywhere comes from your Western bias and is frankly a condescending view of people from other countries.”—No, it is based on the actually definition. I think you adding white rule is your attempt at stretching it or narrowing it down to fit your idea.
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@ Sharina
Agreed. This thread is a clusterf*ck. Things don’t always devolve like this.
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@Kiwi
That is a great explanation, but seeing whites as on top does not change the act of getting surgery or other actions to remove their ethnic looks to look more white. It is obviously an issue that one has with themselves that leads them to do it. I am sure Dencia Sonkey would laugh and tell people she is not trying to look white, but after skin bleaching, blonde hair, and I believe blue contacts it is hard to believe the idea that self-hatred and internalized racism has not taken over.
On top of that white supremacy is not the narrow definition that you are trying to apply. Trojan Pam, Fan.., and even Afrofem can provide better definitions than I can, but China not being white supremacy does not mean they are not victims of it.
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@michaeljonbarker
I think what this thread has shown is that unifying different groups against white supremacy, opprssion ect will not come about through perceived privileges of others or pointing to mutually shared oppression.
That’s a thought.
Perhaps precondition for unity is people having similar agendas geared toward learning and understanding. Arguing to “win” or be “right” may not be the best path to achieving understanding.
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@ Kiwi
The really funny thing is, the last time he got all bent out of shape with me, it was because I was defending black women.
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@Kiwi
You are free to argue it, but white worship is also an issue in America as well, making your idea of immigrants don’t live in white dominated countries so they can’t suffer from internalized racism a lost cause. I can show examples of white worship, internalized racism, and self-hatred and all of this can be found in America, Asia, and Africa. However, white worship can and does turn into internalized racism and self-hatred and does lead to the act of plastic surgery to look white. Looking white is not a matter of “wanting to become white” it is a matter of being white.
You have a nice theory that you have come up with, but ultimately I choose to stick with what has been shown and proven, which is that people all over the globe can and do suffer from internalized racism and self-hatred as a result of white supremacy. The link of abagond counter-frames thread does not debunk that idea.
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@ Sharina
WOW! Clear and strong counter-argument.
I’m learning and loving it!
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@Afrofem
You know I’m learning from you right? 🙂
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@Sharina
(Very hearty) Chuckle!
We all learn from one another. It is an honor to learn from you and all of the other commenters, even the ones I vehemently disagree with. I even learn from the dumb-as-a-bag-of-hammers drive by trolls.
Lessons are everywhere if you are open to learning.
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@Kiwi
Not being directed at me does not mean I don’t have the right to respond to it. I chose to because it was something that was discussed up thread by you with me. It is not an argument to disagree with your stance. It’s like you want an acceptance of your way of thinking with no counter. I don’t agree and I stated why.
As to Somali Prince, he is one example and I don’t remember ever laying claim that he was suffering from internalized racism. I had issues with the dude, but there were things I did agree with him on, but white worship is one aspect and it still does not negate or excuse internalized racism or self-hatred that people in other countries deal with. Skin lightening creme is as common as tooth paste in a lot of these countries. That can not be chalked up to white worship.
If you disagree then do so, but stop trying to chalk it up to an Americanized mindset when Africans on African blogs as well as Africans that come here have expressed concern about internalized racism and self-hatred in there country. Heck even some Asians have expressed it as well.
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Bottom-line is you do not have to be under white rule or a white dominated country to suffer from internalized racism or self-hatred. It comes with territory of being controlled a dominated by White supremacy.
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@Kiwi
I am very much aware that the Chinese preference for lighter skin is a tale as old as time, but lighter skin and white skin are a stark difference in my opinion.
” Indians I’ve spoken to insist that the Indian preference for lighter skin has nothing to do with White people. Same goes for Chinese.”—A person can insist all day that it has nothing to do with wanting to be white, but does not mean they are not dealing with internalized racism or self-hatred. As per my example of Dencia Sonkey. You made the claim that they can not suffer from self-hate or internalized racism if they are not under white rule, but that is false because you are engaging in self-hatred the moment you see white as right. You are also engaging in white supremacy the moment you believe white is superior, which you stated the Chinese do.
With internalized racism is where you switch goal posts to put focus, but that is not a simple matter of wanting to be white. That also is not in the same category of white worship. Internalized racism involves having racist attitudes towards people of your own group. The act of hating your own in preference of white. Thus going back to my link which you have so much issue with. That link shows stats on the Chinese being some of the highest number of clients for plastic surgery to get the white westerner look. That is not just skin lightening or white worship, but a whole different step towards being white.
Nice articles on internalized racism in India as others believe that it can happen outside of the USA.
http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2014/02/13/ugliness-indian-indian-racism
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Link does not have to do with what I thought it did.
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@Kiwi
“You keep telling that to people from other countries. It won’t stop them from seeing you as an arrogant and condescending Westerner.”—Good thing I don’t live my life on what people think or see me as. However, if I engage with a person from any part of this world and they are putting out money and time into cosmetic surgery with the express purpose of looking white then darn right I am going to call it what it is. Internalized racism and self-hatred. Them being offended does not change what they are doing.
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I would also add that I don’t tell people from other countries anything (like you tried to tell villagewriter how his country is), but that does not mean I have not watched Africans call other Africans out on self-hate and internalized racism. Nor does it not mean I have not watched Asians give their take on the same as well as Asian on Asian racism and hate.
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@Kiwi
If you mean expressly conveyed by vocal acknowledgement, I never once said she did. If you mean expressly conveyed by looks….
Spoke person for whitenicious.
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@Kiwi
You are focusing (shifting goal posts) to skin lightening cremes. I said several posts now and even in the link that skin lightening cremes was only one aspect as the talk of wanting to be white has to do with plastic surgery in general.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/05/19/korea.beauty/
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Also the two links you provided are nothing more than ask a question and get an answer by a maybe maybe not expert.
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I found this blog two weeks and as I’m very much interested on matters concerning East Asians in Western countries, I just like to comment here from time to time (hopefully regularly). I’m a Chinese Australian male living in Melbourne and quite a number of issues affecting Asians in Australia mirrors that of the problems Asians are encountering in the US, though of course there are also differences. Just to continue with the flow of the comments here, the East Asian fetish for pale/white skin is many centuries old and existed before any contact with white Europeans, as a few commentators have already mentioned. However, it’s likely true that the near absolute White Euro dominance of the world for the past three centuries had the effect of reinforcing and the notion that “White=right” in the Asian mind. Ideally in my opinion, Asians (both East and South) should discard these attitudes even if they are difficult in the short term, and slowly but positively take a less harsh attitude towards dark skin. I think it’s doable, but may take a lot of reverse propaganda to achieve, contrary to what a great section of the world’s population have been brought up to believe. I am hopeful….
@Kiwi, you seem like a very interesting person and reading through a lot of your comments I find myself agreeing to most of them. Is there a way that I can contact you personally?
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@Kiwi
That is how I know you did not read the article, just as you did not read the one posted above. The individual in the article is Dr Kim Byung-gun, whose clinic is actually in Seoul, South Korea. He is speaking on the common reasons Asians (Chinese and Korean) come into his office to get those nice white features. Martin Wong who is the Asian American mentioned in the last part of the article, but does not negate the testimony of Dr Ki Byung-gun or Jang Hyu-hee and her daughter who are not Asian American.
Secondly the dynamic being different really does not change that they are text book examples of self-hate and internalized racism. Based on both articles these Asians who get the surgery are doing so on the idea that white looks better. That white is better. That having those features will make them look better. That my dear is self-hate, because they are not trying to preserve Asian features. The idea that others who look more Asian is ugly is also internalized racism. You objection is based on your theory, not on reality. And as I stated white worship does not equal trying to look or be white.
I think I will take the word of those Asians from Asia.
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@Kiwi
“Your reply was enough to tell me that you’ve obviously never known or sat down and spoken to many Asians from Asia about this topic.”—I have never made the claim that I have sat down with MANY Asians from Asia. You repeating does not change the fact tat I have said that several times on this blog.
“That added on top of the fact that you obviously have no family ties or family friends from Asia leaves me doubting that you could possibly “get it”.”—Actually I have two family friends from the Philippines. Both of which have been open about self-hate and internalized racism in past conversations.
“Dr. Ki Byung-gun said nothing about racial self-hatred or internalized racism.”—I never said he did, but what he is describing is in line with the definition of internalized racism and self hate. If you are changing your features to look white then it is for racial reasons. It even stated in the article that they are going for white westerner looks, so how is that an Asian beauty standard?
“They do it to get a Korean man and a job”—This goes in line with self-hate and internalized racism. If you can’t get a Korean man looking like a Korean woman then that is text book internalized racism and self-hate. Having to look white to get a man….not a white worship case. As to doing it to get a job says a lot about your mental process to go through that. Many of these women are doing it because they don’t believe they are pretty period. Not because they are trying to get just a job. As per the article
“But I realize now that it is a racist, ethnocentric way of viewing the world, like how Westerners think the Japanese draw themselves as White.”—Yea, but the Japanese drawing themselves as white is different from Chinese people getting plastic surgery to look white.
Thing is they influence beauty standards everywhere, so by your logic African Americans, Asian Americans, Native Americans, and Latino Americans do not suffer from internalized racism or self hate because they are following the white standard of beauty. Sounds ridiculous? That is because your theory is.
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As Martin Wong is more inline with what you believe, I am confused why you are dismissing his position. He stated
“They’re making a statement about their own race, about where they come from, who they are,” says Wong. “They’re not doing it on purpose. They’re not saying that they think they’re inferior looking. They’re not saying they’re ugly, but that’s the message that they’re giving nonetheless”
Seems like your theory is the Americanized one.
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In this case I agree with Sharina, and think we need to call a spade a spade. Getting eyelid surgery in order to look non-East Asian or getting a nose job or chin job or even cheekbone job (yes unfortunately a disturbingly non trivial number of East Asian females hate their racial facial features THAT much) are clear examples of hating one’s own ethnicity. The devil is in the details, most of these physical traits deemed “ugly” or “undesirable” are uniquely Oriental. eg. monolids with high cheekbones. To anyone who thinks different, well sorry, there’s just no logical two ways about it, no other race apart from East Asians go to such extreme lengths to even propagate these absurdities of what is “beautiful” and (digustingly enough) “normal”. One example you could use is that you can comment on White people’s thin lips and they will in all cases immediately and without hesitation express their offence, you pull your eyes back (if you’re non East Asian obivously) to an East Asian and there’s a good chance they will actually accept that you have a point and walk away sulking or (if it’s a woman) totally internalize this act of blatant racism and curse herself for being “ugly”. Get the drift?
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@ Richard Li
Your comment brings to mind a former co-worker who was Chinese American.
She had a natural slim build that most American women (Black, White or Latino) would have to starve themselves to attain. She had finely textured skin and delicate features. Her hair was long, healthy and lustrous.
One day we were chatting and she nearly floored me when she said that when she was growing up she and her sister thought even the ugliest White woman was prettier than them. She told me how she struggled to kick that belief to the curb and succeeded, but her sister was still mired in self loathing.
That conversation was a real eye-opener!
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It seems like some here might enjoy this video, which looks like a knockoff on Buzzfeed.
Being Black in China
(https://youtu.be/CqtS3hSwq3o)
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@Afrofem
Yes that’s exactly what I’m alluding to, the level of self loathing among East Asian females is bad enough, but even worse is the EXTREME ignorance about how these beauty standards came to form in the first place. The double eyelid surgery for example was first performed by an American surgeon in Japan in 1905, at that time American (a major representative of the West) attitudes were that the Japanese Orientals should conform themselves fully to the White Europeans, even in facial appearance. Well, why wouldn’t a pancake flat faced Oriental not want to go under the knife to become an honorary White? After all that was the way to the top, to be accepted by the very people who spit on your race have absolute contempt for you. The Yellow Peril was an alien looking mass of inscrutable little demons just begging to be morphed into good little obedient mannequins of the White man’s ideal world. So there you have it, every Oriental female (and frighteningly it seems, a good number of males nowadays) who go for the facial morph treatment is defecating on the graves and memories of every Asian who gave their lives to throw off the imperialist yoke.
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Disclaimer: I am NOT intentionally ripping on Whites in general. For the records, objectively speaking I actually DO think the White/Caucasoid facial type is aesthetically the most attractive of all peoples (just my personal opinion). My point remains that it is not natural and certainly not healthy for a any ethnic group of people to willy-nilly think of themselves as extremely disgusting looking and then intend to spend a great deal of money and risk medical side effects just to resemble another group of people. My disclaimer can lead to another discussion entirely of course, but my point stands.
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Sorry for this triple comment, I realized the oxymoron in my last comment. “objectively speaking” and “in my personal opinion”, tsk tsk. I meant to say, in my very honest opinion I do consider what said above to be correct.
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@Richard Li
I was not fully aware that it was an issue for males so much as females. Do you consider it as comparable to females when it comes to plastic surgery or not as bad?
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@jefe
I know your video was meant as a teaching point, but that did make me laugh a bit. Thanks for lightening the mood.
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@Afrofem
I have noticed similar. Women that are down right beautiful still seeing themselves as less attractive compared to white women. I am a big 2ne1 fan and I once mentioned the shock at the amount of plastic surgery Park Bom was getting.
http://plastytalk.com/park-bom-drastic-plastic-surgery-transformation-shocked-fans/
It becomes an addiction, but the addiction can be that they still do not feel pretty or they just can’t erase their ethnic look enough to be happy.
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@ Richard Li:
Your surname is decidedly Chinese and I presume you’re of East Asian descent, but when you mentioned the word “Oriental” a few times, my radar pings.
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@leigh204，
I have been to Australia and they definitely do use the word “Asian” which includes people of East and SE Asian descent (unlike in the UK, where “Asian” unqualified usually refers to people of South Asian descent), but if someone is of Asian descent and still using “oriental” they must have been born before the 1950s or something.
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@Kiwi
“Because you haven’t and it shows.”—Duh. I said as much several times again, but that does not dismiss what I said either. You might repeat that in an attempt to dismiss what I said, but I provided two links with stats. You provided anecdotal theories.
“Right. Because Filipinos can possibly know what China and Korea are like.”—I never said they did, but they also are not the only Asian ethnicity alive. You stated ” you obviously have no family ties or family friends from Asia leaves me doubting that you could possibly “get it”,but your assumption of me and my life backfired. So don’t try to switch goal post by singling out China and Korea to avoid the falsehood of your statement. It was a counter to your ignorance and you got showed wrong.
” I have family and family friends in China and Taiwan and nothing you say about Asian self-hatred matches their life experiences at all.”—But nothing you said matched what the millions of other Asians and Africans experience at all either, but let us get to the point instead of you side arguments. Your family and friends can not and do not account for the millions of Chinese or Koreans that deal with self-hate. It is like you ignore their issues to put it as what you want because you can’t accept that they have self-hate or internalized racism.
“The Japanese don’t draw themselves as White.”—Do provided the full quote next time. I don’t believe they do, but you brought up the issue and it is a completely separate one from plastic surgery to look white.
“Martin Wong is more in line with what I used to believe and what you still do”—Considering Martin Wong does not consider it internalized racism, but cultural imperialism. I just direct quoted the dude up above and he is basically running on the same premise as you and you are still trying to say it is what I believe. I stated several times I see it as internalized racism and self-hate. Not the same as what he is talking about.
“As Westerners, both of you are projecting your experiences of internalized racism onto people who live in completely different societies. It is a racist, condescending, and ethnocentric viewpoint.”—Do you know the definition of internalized racism and self-hate? or Do you just apply your theorized definition and see it as true? Either way, I could careless of what you call my viewpoint, because the facts still remain here. People outside of the US suffer from internalized racism and self-hate. The reason they can never kick it is because white worshipers like you see it as no big deal.
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@leigh204
I am of Chinese descent, I can tell you that. I am fully aware that the term Oriental is outdated and totally PC incompatible. I used it precisely to put what I was saying in the proper historical context, nothing more. You and Kiwi could have known that.
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@Kiwi
I never said it made me the expert, but I am also not going to ignore the stats on millions of other Chinese and Koreans who do deal with self hate and internalized racism to engage in your anecdotal theory that could only accounts for a drop in the ocean. I can almost promise you right now that if I asked you how many of the people you are referring to had plastic surgery to look white you would either dance around the issue, goal post shift, or claim some have and excuse why they have. I honestly don’t think you know the real difference between someone who suffers from white worship, internalized racism, and self-hate. People who suffer from it are often in denial of it, which is why you don’t recognized your own issues and battle with it. Which is why any issues you carry you often seek to put them on others rather than acknowledging the fault in yourself.
At the end of the day you made a claim that you could not support based on your dog bone mentality to try and claim I was using a perpetual foreigner stereotype when I was not. You tried to enforce the credibility of your claim by pulling abagond into it (so happy he did not get involved), using other posts he had written that did not support it, and then twisting the definition of the word (what you accused me of) to further a false credibility to it. Your definition did not match the definition, so then you clung to a “theory” you have. You have this messed up idea that because you theorized that and believe that that somehow it is true, credible, and I am suppose to own up and believe it. I don’t have to agree with or believe your wacked out theories.
“It’s a racist, condescending, and ethnocentric attitude but apparently you lack the character to own up to it.”—-In case you have not noticed I don’t really care what you call it, because you call people names based on them not agreeing with you and less on what they actually are. I am not going to own up to something I am not doing, so you can feel better about your own racist, condescending, and ethnocentric attitudes (You usually only call people names that illustrate what you are doing). Your words have no credibility with me, so you can repeat that line until hell freezes over and only you will believe it. Catch me when you are willing to own up to the fact that you switched goal posts so many times that count was lost, that you use black stereotypes as a stepping stone to prove points at the expense of black people, that you lie and then try to change the points to excuse it, that you think you know whats best or right for black people and those in Africa, and that your childish attitudes are doing nothing more than damaging your character….not mine. 🙂
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@ Richard Li:
So you say you’re fully cognizant that the term “Oriental” is antiquated and un-PC, yet you also mentioned this:
As someone of East Asian descent, why would say you something like that to describe the appearance of an Asian person? Hmm?
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For the records, objectively speaking I actually DO think the White/Caucasoid facial type is aesthetically the most attractive of all peoples (just my personal opinion).
I found this statement to be bizarre.
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@Herneith
You are right. That statement was pretty suspect.
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@leigh204,
Is “Brad” back?
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@Herneith:
How did I miss that? You’re right! Richard Li’s statement is bizarre indeed and I co-sign with Afrofem. His statement is suspicious
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@jefe:
Please refresh my memory regarding this Brad fellow. It seems I’ve forgotten.
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@Kiwi
Except I am not the one lashing out now am I? Like I said, for every remark you claim I a doing I can quote you being the one actually doing it. I know, it hurts that a non-Asian got information from other Asians in Asian countries and it did not go with your narrative. Right now I am patiently waiting for an Asian writer in Hong Kong to give his take on self-hate and internalized racism in his area, because that is what racist do.
I hope it is as telling as him agreeing with most of what you said. The only revealing aspect is how you were eating up this dudes comments until he chose not to agree with you. I wonder if you dislike the racist and condescending Dr Ki Byung-gun or Jang Hyu-hee and her daughter for engaging in interviews that exposes this self-hate and internalized racism that is so common i