The Third Enlargement of American Whiteness (1930-1980) was when Jews, Italians and others from southern and eastern Europe became White Americans, when they melted into the melting pot.
Nell Irvin Painter in “The History of White People” (2010) counts four enlargements of whiteness, of Real America. Roughly speaking:
- Early 1800s: Wasps (British American)
- Late 1800s: Nordics (northern European)
- Middle 1900s: whites (European)
- Early 2000s (in progress): multiracial middle-class
The Life and Times of the Third Enlargement:
Late 1800s: Crossing the Atlantic becomes cheap. Suddenly anyone can come to America: unlettered peasants from Italy, penniless Jews and others from southern and eastern Europe. They fill the slums of New York and elsewhere. The government fears they will be stuck there forever – a permanent underclass.
1910s: They are called “alien races”. Madison Grant says they bring crime and poverty. They have too many children. They do not understand freedom and democracy, they vote for corrupt political machines. Skull measurements (and later IQ tests) prove they lack intelligence.
Grant divides Europe into three races:
- Nordics in the north-west,
- Alpines in the middle and
- Mediterraneans in the south.
As you go south from Britain, people become less intelligent, more ruled by their passions, more given to crime and drink. These are inborn differences: Jews and Italians will always be stuck at the bottom.
1920s: They are now starting to be called “ethnic”. The Immigration Act of 1924 all but shuts off immigration from southern and eastern Europe to save America from destruction. Jews are the people no one wants. This will doom many to die in the Holocaust – and drive the creation of Israel.
Hitler writes Grant a fan letter.
1930s: Enough white ethnics can now vote that Franklin Roosevelt sees them as an important part of the white working-class vote he needs to win. His New Deal policies see them the same as other white people.
1940s: The Second World War: Sons of white ethnics leave their ethnic neighbourhoods to fight for America alongside whites from across the country. Think “Saving Private Ryan” (1998). Meanwhile the military keeps Asians and blacks (Double V!) separate.
The Holocaust and the Nuremberg Trials discredit Grant’s scientific racism.
1950s: The GI Bill makes it easy for returning white soldiers to get a university education or start a business. FHA loans make it easy to buy a house in the suburbs. White ethnics leave the city. Their children grow up among the “blond people” in the bosom of suburbia, becoming fully Americanized. Blacks, meanwhile, are pretty much shut out of the suburbs and the GI Bill. Very little FHA money goes to the cities. City housing starts falling apart.
1970s: Jews now have higher IQs than whites as a whole. Italians have seen huge gains in IQ too.
1980s: Just white, no longer mainly seen as ethnic. They tell blacks that their grandparents came to America with $25 in their pocket, pulling themselves up by their bootstraps.
Source: mainly Nell Irvin Painter in “The History of White People” (2011).
See also:
Very interesting post. It is eye opening to learn and observe how white people treat themselves and see themselves as a fragmented group. I think as the white population shrinks we will see another wave of white inclusion perhaps light skinned hispanics and just most anyone that can pass for white. Studying whiteness really gives one a front row seat to crazy and crazy making damn even white people have to put up with white people. LOL.
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“They tell blacks that their grandparents came to America with $25 in their pocket, pulling themselves up by their bootstraps.”
When ever these “ethnic whites” or Asians say this, it makes me cringe, but it does hold some truth.
Why have Nigerian immigrants done better than African Americans?Why do they have higher rates of academic attainment(even higher than Asians), why do they make more money than African Americans, and why are they able to buy house in predominantly white suburbs?
Nigerians are black too, so they’re just as likely to be discriminated against for being dark, they also suffer from ‘immigrant discrimination’, and they have to learn a new language,culture and social norms just to blend into mainstream American society.
Despite all of that, against all odds they’ve succeeded and outperformed African Americans that a had a head start over them.
The only Black general manager in the NBA is Nigerian.
I’m pretty sure other sub-Saharan African and Afro-Caribbean immigrants have done as well as Nigerian Americans, but African American still under perform.
The only solution is self-reflection.
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“White” can still continue to absorb new European immigrants (by around the 3rd generation), but I agree that the main new source of “white” people will come from
– White hispanics
– Multiracial / biracial Americans
Actually, “white” America has been absorbing these 2 groups for hundreds of years. What has changed is how they are being absorbed.
Previously (ie, a century ago or more), many white hispanics retained their separate identity from Anglos, eg, Spanish speaking people in the Southwest or Florida. Only smaller numbers, usu those who moved away from the strong Hispanic cultural regions, would elect to assimilate into the white population. Also, multiracial people have been “passing” into “white” for centuries also, esp. after the Civil War. Otherwise why would we have more white Americans with African ancestry than we do have black Americans? Why would the majority of people in the USA with Native American history today actually be “white” people? In prior centuries, multiracial people were often barred from interacting / associating with whites. They had to choose from either other multiracial people or from non-white monoracials. This is how we get the situation where the vast majority of non-whites whose ancestors have been in the USA for more than 100 years are actually part European.
Now,
“White” Americans are attempting to split off the white Hispanic from the Brown and Black ones. They are lulled into thinking that they too can be white.
And in prior times, a multiracial American could become white only if he / she could actually *pass* as “white”. Now, it can be possible to become an honourary white or an “almost, but not quite” white and gain some white privileges (such as the right to marry a white person without being treated as if one is in an interracial marriage) even if the person looks “mixed” if they can be lulled into thinking that they do not have to identify with they coloured brethren if they don’t want to. Given the high rate of intermarriage nowadays, surely many of their descendants will also simply become “white”. Of course, some multiracials will want nothing to do with identifying with “white” (and thus continue the historical trend of bringing some more European ancestry into the non-white population), but I suspect it is not the majority (my guess – not based on independent scientific research).
I envision a future America where the “white” population will actually be around 80-85% European, not too different from the percentage of African ancestry in the black population.
I think there is a small possibility that a 3rd multiracial group would develop a separate identity, but given the pressure to be “white”, I doubt this will gain much ground.
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For some reason, that picture at the end is sickening to me…it’s actually kind of scary! Like plastic dolls with fake smiles, and the mother has fake blonde hair…all the girls are blonde all the men brunette…#stratfordwives
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Most immigrants come from countries with less economic opportunity. If you’re a smart person from a 3rd world country then the smartest thing you can do is leave. And the smartest ones do leave. The average immigrant is much smarter than the average person where they immigrated from. When they get to America, everyone has opportunity. Yes, everyone.
The first generation may live in a crappy neighborhood and go to crappy schools. But they end up graduating at the top of the class, going to college and getting great jobs. After a generation or two, most families end up comparable to others of similar ability regardless of race or religion. If a family or group has been in America for several generations then they’re pretty much where they’re going to be.
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@Jamarcus,
Why do u have to say subsaharan-Africans? I was born and raised in Canada, I’m Nigerian tho, and went to school there for 5-7th grade…the schooling in Nigeria is much Better than the schooling in the west (CANADA AND THE US)…here they dumb you down, and don’t push you cuz they say they don’t want to hurt your self-esteem. Especially white female teachers, everything is ok to them, you never have to try extra. I go to an international school now in Canada, and we have Nigerian students graduating at age 14-16, my roommate just graduated and she turned 16 in may, another friend graduated at 14 2 years ago.
You can’t blame everything on AA cuz Nigerians come to the US and they do better than EVERYBODY the Asians, Europeans (even though their school curriculum is based after the British), aka the white Americans AND the Chinese Americans…so…why is that white person?
**also the racism they face coming here, is very different, than say the racism you faced your whole life and in schools with white teachers, that don’t feel the Need to push/challenge their students, passing to them is just ok, obviously it won’t affect them as much, no offense to AA, but they HAVE A CULTURE THAT WAS NOT BASED ON WHITE PEOPLE. so…they stick together and they know where they come from and who they are…and they know white people can’t be trusted. So instead of trying so hard to get a degree to get a job which will just have them working for whites, they make jobs. And they give back to their community and family while doing so. They understand if u don’t have culture, you’re just making it easier for whites to pick on you, like they do to the AA cuz they lack unity and culture as a whole…they try to assimilate instead of just sticking and working with their own…they beg whites to do everything for them, they think whites give a f! They really don’t!
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Jamarcus, you use a very Eurocentric term “Sub-saharan Africa” and it seems like to apply the model minority stereotype to (relative recent) immigrants from Africa and the Caribbean. What I mean is, you are trying to use another version of the model minority stereotype argument to allude to pathologies (“The only solution is self-reflection.”) found in the non-immigrant (eg, slave descendant) black population.
It is not fair to use the model minority stereotype, even if the stereotype refers to other groups of “blacks”, esp. if you are referring to immigrants, which are generally a self-selected group of people. In fact, it is an application of a racist stereotype (Even if the “models” in this case are also black people).
When I was young (which is actually a few decades ago, after “Roots” came out) I heard white people talk about blacks like this. They would say things like why can’t those “n-i-gg-x-s” be more like those from the “islands” or from Africa itself. But, even when I was a teenager, I saw that as a method that white people used to get of the hook, to absolve themselves of any misdeeds that occurred more than 30 years ago. It is a derailment tactic. What we need is not so much self-reflection, but a more accurate depiction of history.
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^its true jefe, it’s not fair to AA who face racism their whole lives, living under white rule, and on top of that AA have no culture therefore no unity…and the education in. The states and Canada is very easy if you’ve gone to school in Nigeria (3yrs for me–middle school)
So I think the answer is segregation again, before integration, at least this is what a friend told me (I’m Canadian):
“Exactly. That is why the Black Community today is lost especially the black youth. Before Blacks integrated in the 1960s and 1970s, Black Americans stayed together, had their own businesses, BM loved BM, most Black kids grew up in two parents homes, and most of all Blacks valued God, education and family”
If u don’t have a culture in western society and you’re not white, you’re screwed, cuz you’re just making it easier for whites to confuse you! Nigerians and other Africans from what I’ve heard stress education 100000% there is no other option lol…education + culture + family = thriving community
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I’m Nigerian Acutally but was born and raised in Canada
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Oh yeah “+spirituality(God)”
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Suburbanization has been the root of this “whiteness”. It is not a normal way of growth at all but you have these people believing this is the American dream and that city living is some socialist, communist propaganda.
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I agree, I hate the suburbs, I miss the city! So much, but ppl say they don’t like it cuz of the noise and I heard it’s getting more dangerous in Toronto. Abagond was right, suburbs are very anti-social, especially if it’s a cultural enclave like mine, with mostly racist Asians, then u feel even more alone.
Sigh, thank God, I go to a school out of my area now! :))
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Just look at American history, and ask yourself that question a second time, and the answer will become obvious.
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@King,
As I suggested, it is very difficult to get a good source for American history. We have to get that first.
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Found a video on the author of the book that served as a reference for this blog post.
(http://youtu.be/mDZUBX_nY_0)
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[…] per usual, a good post at Abagond about American whiteness: this article details the way my people ‘became white’ in America. I’m both […]
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@ Jamarcus really???? These Nigerians were not in the same situation as African Americans! The fact that you can even ask why they are more successful even though they are black makes me sick! I don’t know how smart you are but why do you think??? Its not rocket science! were these Nigerians taken as slaves not allowed an education. Severely punished if they even attempted to try and learn to read or write and then not being able to stay in education when they were finally allowed because they had to work for their family to survive. Being denied the same resources as white children. Being taught like it was a proven fact that they are not good, smart (basically white) enough to amount to anything.
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This reminds me of the white default thread.
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This whole ‘white supremacy’ deception is so comical to me now.
According to the National Center for Biotechnology Information
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18479839
……………………..
“Melanin DIRECTLY CONVERTS LIGHT for vertebrate METABOLIC USE: heuristic thoughts on birds, Icarus and DARK HUMAN SKIN.”
“Pigments serve many visually obvious animal functions (e.g. hair, skin, eyes, feathers, scales). One is ‘melanin’, unusual in an absorption across the UV-visual spectrum which is controversial. Any polymer or macro-structure of melanin monomers is ‘melanin’. Its roles derive from complex structural and physical-chemical properties e.g. semiconductor, stable radical, conductor, free radical scavenger, charge-transfer.”
………………………
They can keep their whiteness and confer it on anyone they wish. I’ll keep the biological superiority conferred on me by the divine cosmos. Global warming and ozone depletion are not anthropogenic or caused by CFCs and CO2 emissions. They are due to increased solar activity and a weakening of the earth’s magnetic field. In a word: judgement.
Magnetic Field (Wikipedia):
“The magnetic field of the Earth largely deflects most of the charged particles emanating from the Sun, thus protecting it from this solar wind. These particles would strip away the ozone layer, which protects the Earth from harmful ultraviolet rays”
“At present, the overall geomagnetic field is becoming weaker; the present strong deterioration corresponds to a 10–15% decline over the last 150 years and has ACCELERATED in the past several years;”
Solar Flare (Wikipedia)
“There has been major solar flare activity in early 2013, notably within a 48 hour period starting on May 12, 2013, a total of four X-class solar flares were emitted ranging from an X1.2 and upwards of an X3.2.,[37] the latter of which was one of the largest flares of the year so far” [X class flares are the most powerful]
The ones in high places know that it’s 11:59. They’re just keeping the sheeple out of the loop. Thus HAARP, the aptly named DUMBs (Deep Underground Military Base), and the upcoming prophetic movie Elysium.
Elysium (Wikipedia)
“When asked whether the film reveals how he sees Earth turning out in 140 years, director Blomkamp responded “No, no, no. This isn’t science fiction. This is today. This is now.”
I hope people who’ve been under evil dominion for the last several millennia manage to free themselves from their stockholm’s syndrome. Otherwise they are not even going to recognize the way out when they see it.
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@Jamarcus
The Nigerians you are referring to are often a very well educated and self selected group. They were doctors, lawyers, architects and nurses in their own country before arriving in America. They are part of the brain drain the rest of the world is experiencing as the best and brightest move to the West. The vast majority come here knowing English because they were colonized by the British.
Another thing the Nigerians have is an intact culture of their own, not a bastardized version of someone else’s. Think of it as armor and White supremacy as a big guy wielding a club. The Nigerians, as most Africans from colonized countries, are beaten and there is some bruising, but they fair better against the onslaught because the armor (culture) they wear is one of their own creation that teaches them that they have value and are capable of great things.
Blacks that are descended from slaves on the other hand have a had to create a culture out of the culture of their former masters and current oppressors. This provides them with very little if any protection from the guy with the club (white supremacy), because at the very core of their bastardized culture is that Whites are supreme and that Blacks are inferior. So their “armor” would amount to a skin diving suite and the onslaught is merciless. Concussions, broken and crushed bones, blackened eyes, and brains beaten from their skulls.
They have had hundreds of years cut off from their ancestor’s culture and have internalized hatred of themselves. The damage that they have sustained is far greater than their African brothers and sisters. So much so that many of them will distance themselves from their African ancestors because all they have ever know is Black inferiority in the face of White Supremacy.
Africans come from countries that are poorly ran, but never the less, run by other Africans. All of the people in power and all the people that prosper are other Africans, so Africans that come to the West view themselves as capable and deserving of success. In their minds there is no excuse not to succeed.
Slave descended Blacks, on the other hand, have come from a history where every effort was made to ensure their ancestors did not succeed BECAUSE they were Black. Whites complain about Blacks not making much progress since slavery, but what they won’t acknowledge is how much effort they put into impeding that progresss at every opportunity.
For many slave descended Blacks the message has been passed down from generation to generation “don’t even try because the White man won’t let you.,,(fill in the blank)”. This was exactly what the White man intended. Then they wonder why the ghettos are filled with Blacks that just don’t try anymore, and haven’t tried in generations. THEY GOT THE MEMO THAT’S WHY!!! They view success and education as the domain of Whites and everything negative as the domain of Blacks. They have been successfully brain washed.
Another thing slave descended Blacks suffer from is an almost crippling rage at Whites and White society. Why? Because they KNOW just how much effort White America put into oppressing and degrading their ancestors and they are pissed about. Sometimes so much so that they don’t want to take part in the larger White society. Africans immigrants have come here after slavery, Jim Crow and White people’s open acts of hatred for Blacks have become unseemly (and illegal, on paper anyway) so they don’t understand the anger AA’s feel. All Africans see is the opportunity available and the new more “welcoming” White people of the color blind era of racism.
Basically, the psyche of Africans and slave descended Blacks are different. Africans view themselves as full human beings deserving of all of life’s opportunities whereas slave descended Blacks have a long, hard and bitter history with Whites; and a borrowed culture that they have attempted to alter to their benefit, but it is a culture at its very core that is built on White supremacy and Black inferiority.
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In my opinion, the next phase of “White” integration will be directly dependent on how the ruling class handles immigration and the aging “White” population.
If the ruling class takes measures that restrict legal immigration, discourage illegal immigration and restrict birth control, then we’ll see the mass deportation (self and formal) of a large portion of the “Hispanic” population, leaving behind those in that group that wouldn’t be easily removed and would be easy to integrate into “White” America.
If they go in the opposite direction, then we’ll see the “White” Americans gradually become a minority in their own country, as their birth rates aren’t keeping pace with that of the minorities (especially “Hispanics”) due to birth control and as more immigrants (many of whom are relatively young) come from continents other than Europe.
I seriously doubt that “White” America will accept the latter course.
As we’ve seen with the Zimmerman case, they value whatever “perks” they’ve gotten by virtue of their skin colour and they will fight like hell to prevent that from being taken away from them.
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EXCELLENT commentary, Jadapoo1!
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That last picture is supposed to creep you out. Stepford Wives is spot on.
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@Peanut
I would say that the perspective that “Whites” have on “Hispanics” is one that will vary on whether or not they perceive them to be a threat their dominant cultural, social and economic position.
If they do, they’ll say the same kind of things about them that they say about “Blacks” and other, non-“White” minorities. If they don’t, they’ll be, more or less, like this woman you linked.
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Also, the last paragraph about $25 and bootstraps was meant to be ironic after listing all the government help they got that was denied to blacks.
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I know right! It’s sad!
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I think most Hispanics who can pass for white will in 50 years become assimilated White Americans. Some already are. The question is whether whiteness will be extended to include mestizos. I think it could, but unless a new wave of immigrants appears in the the Southwest, mestizos will be more “useful” as colour-coded cheap labour.
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However the main reason I used that picture of the white family is that you cannot tell what their ethnic origins are.
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“They can keep their whiteness and confer it on anyone they wish. I’ll keep the biological superiority conferred on me by the divine cosmos. Global warming and ozone depletion are not anthropogenic or caused by CFCs and CO2 emissions. They are due to increased solar activity and a weakening of the earth’s magnetic field. In a word: judgement..”
This is ridiculous. It is odd that people here do not call out those that agree with them for the most part even when they make ridiculous statements.
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One recurring theme on this blog: whites cannot understand what it is to be black, yet blacks can hold forth with long narratives that implicitly or explicitly rely upon them understanding white people on some deeper level than they feel white people understand themselves.
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Dang Jadapoo1 good comment.
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blacks are around whites all the time, at work, at school, etc. whites can get away from blacks and have, just go to Utah. A lot of them get their info about blacks from tv and a few encounters. I don’t see where somebody said we know whites more than they know themselves, all some have said was we can see through some of their bs and lies. If we knew whites better than they knew themselves we would be on top. But we do observe certain things from being around them all the time, and they way they treat us.
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@ qwerty
No different from what I get from those in here (including you) who magicly have made a whole conclusion of what I think and feel based on little or no information. So as some might say…people in glass houses should not throw stones.
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“Basically, the psyche of Africans and slave descended Blacks are different. Africans view themselves as full human beings deserving of all of life’s opportunities whereas slave descended Blacks have a long, hard and bitter history with Whites; and a borrowed culture that they have attempted to alter to their benefit, but it is a culture at its very core that is built on White supremacy and Black inferiority.”
*************
Cosign.
And yet, while facing these oppressive obstacles and struggles handed to us by racism/white supremacy, still many of the descendants of slaves have endured, fought, risen, achieved and even thrived in a hostile and uneven environment. If that’s not a testimony of our individual/collective strengths, resolve and fortitude as a “black” people, then nothing is.
(Abagond, perhaps Jadapoo1’s post should also go in the Broken Record Department …)
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So at this point I find most of what you say a bit irrelevant seeing as all you do is complain about what people on this blog do and magicly feel no problem with doing it yourself. *shrugs*
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Who are u talking to??
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“No different from what I get from those in here (including you) who magicly have made a whole conclusion of what I think and feel based on little or no information. So as some might say…people in glass houses should not throw stones.”
Did I mention you by name or was it enough that I noticed something that seems common here and you happen to be a commenter?
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@ Jamarcus
Mostly because
1. American schools suck, the ones most blacks go to suck even more.
2. Voluntary, legal immigrants are heavily filtered by the government.
3. The full weight of anti-black racism is not going to fall on you: as a foreigner, whites feel much less guilt and contempt about you.
4. What Jadapoo1 said about intact cultures and internalized racism.
I went to a pretty good American high school and got good grades, but when I got to university all the black and brown Commonwealth kids were like two years ahead of me. America has some great universities, but its public high schools suck, particularly if you are black (Black IQ DROPS during high school).
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You have no idea just how sucky American schools are until you go overseas. In Jr. High I was at the top of my class in most subjects. I finished off the last year of Jr. High in Nairobi, Kenya. When I got there, I was tested of course. In most subjects I had to be moved down TWO grade levels, and the rest ONE grade level. Naturally, because I’m awesome, I eventually caught up, but it was tough going. Good news when I got back to the states I was way ahead of my peers and graduated high school and went to college early for my age group.
Just thought I’d share that. My stint in African schools gave me a leg up in high school and towards college prep. American schools suck really really really bad.
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Agreed! I went to a Nigerian international school for 3 yrs in middle school and came back and actually wished the teachers made me work harder! They don’t even try teaching here, and they worry too much about how we feel and self esteem, they don’t want to push us cuz they think it’ll hurt our self esteem, but they’re teaching us to be satisfied with less instead of pushing us to do more than we think we’re capable of…in Nigeria I felt like I could be a genius, here, u don’t have to try everything is ok with them! The Indian teachers I had in Canada are a lil better tho, cuz they really push u!
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Oh, I just thought that you were comparing descendants of immigrants arriving with $25 in their pockets and quite some freedom with descendants of cargo arriving without pockets in their chains, from that pov, $25 is (certainly if inflation correction is considered) a rather good starting position.
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I was just thinking, we could use another movie called the The Stepford “Whites”.
A black family moves into a town unbeknownst that a portion of the town have been Stepfordized.
There are 4 scenarios:
1. The whites are automatons (version 1)
They are not only liberal and colour-blind, but act as if they learned actual white-American history, including all its misdeeds. They are self-deprecating in front of non-whites and do not racially discriminate nor deny that racism is the elephant in the room. They apologize for any behavior that might be interpreted as a micro-aggression. Looks like paradise for the non-whites.
Except that the non-whites in the town act strange also (albeit non-Stepfordized). They are not automatons, but they all seem to want to be white. And, after a process, some of them do have the chance to become actual white people, as white people are still somehow praised for discharging their white privilege (which somehow makes it a privilege to be white).
So, it is a town where non-whites are showered with so much goodness from whites that they too, want to be white.
This is the scenario that I think of when I look at the photograph.
2. The whites are automatons (version 2)
The time is modern day (2010s), but the whites come straight out of the 1950s Pleasantville. They are superficially courteous to non-whites, but treat them exactly the way TV and hollywood in the 1950s treated them. The black family sees all the non-whites in stereotypical 1950s roles. They go around and just experience WTF confoundedness until the secret is revealed.
3. The whites are automatons (version 3)
The time is modern day (2010s), but the whites come straight out of the 1950s racist hell. The black family learns that there is no escape from this town once you move in – they cannot escape. The learn that some person (or corporation) lured in non-whites into the town to create their own fairyland.
4. The non-whites are automatons
The town is made for whites who want to believe that they are colour-blind and non-racist, but they do not want any trouble from non-whites. They want all the non-whites to “know their place”. They Stepfordized all of them.
When the black family moves in, they notice a curious transformation of all the non-whites in town. They exhibit complete deference to white people and know exactly where the boundaries are so as not to offend whites. They finally realize what is happening, and learn that they too are on the list to be Stepfordized.
The last scenario is actually the closest to the original idea (ie, replacing people with automatons to make them idealized versions of what the non-automatons want the people to be like).
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“Slave descended Blacks, on the other hand, have come from a history where every effort was made to ensure their ancestors did not succeed BECAUSE they were Black. Whites complain about Blacks not making much progress since slavery, but what they won’t acknowledge is how much effort they put into impeding that progresss at every opportunity. ”
How do George Washington Carver, Phyllis Wheatley, Frederick Douglass, Benjamin Banneker and Sojourner Truth fit into that narrative Jadapoo1?
Heck, how do Allen West, Ben Carson, Juan Williams, Herman Cain and Condi Rice fit into your story?
I think you’re trying too hard to provide an excuse for the non ambitious among the black community.
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I was just thinking about how people become white. A case in point is Dean Cain.
Dean Cain (born Dean Tanaka) is 1/4 Japanese. He had a son with Samantha Torres, who is Spanish.
His son Christopher Dean Cain is simply “white” — probably no Asian or Hispanic identity left at all, esp. since his parents are not together. And he has the surname of a grandfather that he is not actually a blood relative of.
http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/dean-cain/images/7344285/title/dean-cain-christopher-photo
http://www.justjared.com/photo-gallery/488161/dean-cain-son-chris-cain-01/
http://www.x17online.com/celebrities/dean_cain/superman_superdad.php
Same thing with Tiger Woods’s kids and Halle Berry’s kids.
Tiger Woods’s son with mom and grandmother.
Halle Berry’s daughter with Dad
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To all the people who comment about how bad American schools are, I still wish I knew what to do about the American cultural values regarding education.
Black schools are terrible, but white schools are not that much better. I think the few people who manage to get an education do it in spite of the American educational system, not because of it.
Maybe future history books will attribute the collapse of the American empire due in part to the cultural disdain for education.
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Abagond
“Black IQ DROPS during high school”
IQ is relative to age and how others your age score. The same answers that would earn someone an IQ of 100 at age 14 would earn them a much lower score at 18. If someone’s score drops it doesn’t mean they’re dumber than they were before. It means they haven’t improved as much as others. They peaked earlier and plateaued while others continued to grow. It makes sense that blacks would reach mental maturity sooner because blacks also reach physical maturity sooner as well. Others don’t reach maturity for another 2 to 3 years later.
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Are u sure that isn’t a documentary?! It’s so true, I used to fall for the assimilation thing, thinking I was accepted cuz they were “superficially kind” and they always had these weird creepy smiles they’d give you like “oh poor you! I’m white therefore I’m superior, but cuz I’m a nice person, I feel bad for u!” Total bs…assimilation won’t work, why would I want to work and be accepted by my oppressors! We should just segregate!
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And plus you’ll get shunned, for acting too smart in the west…it’s not seen as a good thing to be intelligent, it’s not socially acceptable at a young age you learn that, and dumb yourself down!
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@Matari
Why should my comment go into the Broken Records section. Isn’t that where old regurgitated racist comments ( Black crime statistics, race realist arguments, etc) go? What have I said that rates that sort of treatment?
@ Riverside Rob
There will always be exceptional people. There will always be exceptional individuals that will succeed no matter what. But the truth is most people are not exceptional. Most people are average at best. That goes for Black, White, Red and Brown people. If any other group had those kinds of obstacles thrown at them it is doubtful they would have faired much better, so trotting out exceptions does not dispel the rule.
As a rule Black people have had tremendous obstacles placed in their path. Unlike any obstacles put before any other group in America’s history. The fact that some people succeeded in a big way in spite of all of them is definitely impressive, but it does not disprove my earlier posted comments.
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I doubt – and I hope I’m wrong here – that any future “enlargement of American Whiteness” will absorb Blacks. Here we have the dialectic of “thesis” and “antithesis” working: to exist the “thesis”, the “antithesis” must be there too. White America needs a weakened Black America to maintain its self-image as good and powerful.
An interesting essay by Bonnila-Silva explains this better (what the future probably holds for America, from the point of view of race):
Click to access BonillaSilvaBitoTri.PDF
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Black people will likely never be absorbed into the concept of “whiteness”. What will occur in America is a Brazil like version of racisim with Black people on the bottom and White at the top. All the brown peope will be jockeying for position in the middle utilizing Black people as the “racial floor” that they stand on. Bonilla Silva is right.
Talking about race will also be shut down effectively leaving those who are discriminated against with no ability to call out their oppressors. This will effectively “end” racism because no one will be allowed to talk about or call it out. Black people will find they have no allies because everyone will work as hard as they can to keep Blacks in their place on the bottom, if for no other reason than to assure they never have to occupy that position.
Biracial people will double their efforts to separate themselves from “black”black people in order to ensure their position in the pigmentocracy. Even light skinned Blacks without a “current” white or “other” parent will make attempts to distance themselves from other Blacks. I doubt the other groups lumped in the bottom will have sense enough to ally with Blacks in any meaningful way in an effort to create change. They’ll likely decide to bide their time in hopes of assimilating into the White family at a later date.
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Jefe:
The educational system, like the political system, ultimately reflects the values of the masses. Dumb people elect dumb politicians and create dumb schools.
One can certainly make the case that vested interests in both politics and education skew the narrative, encumber reform, and encourage poor performance, but ultimately it’s the people who decide what kind of systems they want.
How you do you fix it?
As Gandhi, and many a saccharine dorm-room poster states, be the change you want to see in the world. Have children and invest daily in their education. Limit their exposure to the electronic bread-and-circuses and be a beacon of positivity and excellence to those around you.
Demand more from educational institutions and encourage your neighbors to do likewise. Attend PTA meetings. Run for your local school board. Persist in these efforts for decades.
Jefe:
This assessment doesn’t appear to leave much room for the effects of racism.
Discuss.
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And, as usual, native americans are no where to be seen at all. They are excluded from it all.
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@Randy,
I no longer live in the USA. It is difficult to influence a school board or PTA if I do not live there nor have any children who attend school there. If I did have children, I probably would not want them to attend primary or secondary school there – no bang for your high-tax buck. They would have to wait until university.
I can only lament the education situation there. I grew up there, so I know the situation, but I really don’t know why so many Americans have such an attitude about education. It’s embarrassing.
I know what it is, actually. American culture places emphasis on different things, like athletics and social skills, extracurricular activities and work experience, less on academics.
I did try my best when I was growing up. I took university computer courses at age 13 and learned calculus at age 14 (and took the university Advanced placement test at age 15) – took all of the advanced placement courses I could in High School, did a university correspondence course in Advanced French and started learning Mandarin at age 15, but all of this was definitely against the culture of the area I grew up in. And it is nothing spectacular compared to what students do overseas.
BTW, I should rephrase my statement into
– white schools are sometimes so-so, sometimes, poor, but black schools are invariably much worse.
This leaves considerable room for the effects of racism.
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@ Awake BW
That is something I have noticed as well. I worry about that because if my kids are anything like me or my husband…if the subjects get boring we tune out. In my husbands case it was worse because he tuned out to the point of “I don’t care.”
The methods I use at home for teaching my daughter works much better and it maybe the reason I home school her.
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@ jefe
“American culture places emphasis on different things, like athletics and social skills, extracurricular activities and work experience, less on academics.”—Exactly!!!
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I don’t know.
I think moving on into the future, “biracials” or “triracials” won’t ever be seen as “white”. This is really the case all over. If anything, America will likely move in the direction of South Africa; having the minority (whites) dominate law, politics, media, etc while the majority (non-whites) accept it and replacing “coloureds” with “Biracial” on job, housing and school applications.
White people are not confused about who is and who isn’t “white” be it based on phenotype or anything else that could “mark” one as white. And besides that–in America people still contend to the “One Drop Rule” which basically says that a white woman can give birth to a Black baby (Barack Obama), but a Black woman can NEVER give birth to a white baby or baby that appears white. Halle Berry’s daughter under this system is still “biracial” or Black and so is Paula Patton’s son. The one drop rule was really hold over of the Slave Codes in which African women were flooding this country like crazy and white males couldn’t stay away from them, so to keep white privilege that law stated that “a child was the race of his/her mother”. Yet it was ONLY applied to Black people.
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@Jadapoo1
There are some signs that some aspects of the Brazilian model are showing up in the USA. One thing is the growth in the multi-racial population. Already, about half the population is multiracial to some extent, and it will continue to grow. Siblings of multiracial parents may have varying phenotypes. Colourism may be replacing racism to some extent.
If interracial marriage had taken off, say, in the first half of the 20th century with all the immigration controls in place (and continued extermination and dislocation of Native Americans), I think America might have been able to absorb its black population into the white population. But, that will probably no longer be completely possible. What seems to be a trend is an expansion of the definition of “white” population. It is possible that part of the multiracial population will assimilate into the white population, and some into the black population (thereby expanding the definition of “black” also – which might just become brown). My cousin’s 10-yr old grandson is about 3/8 white, 3/8 black and 1/4 Chinese with both parents multiracial. Will he decide to become white, become black, or become part of the growing multiracial groups? But then again, it seems that Tiger Woods (about 1/2 Asian, 1/4 black, 1/8 Caucasian and 1/8 Native American) decided to become white.
Whilst it is quite possible that the USA will migrate to the Brazilian model it is not the only model possible. Something might happen — such as a backlash against whites, or if whites vacate the major cities to live in white enclaves (such as some who moved to Utah). Or Latin American and Asian immigration might swamp it out. Whites may actually become a minority if they do not manage to get the white Hispanics and multiracials to assimilate with them.
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@phoebeprunelle
I think the One Drop Rule has now become the One Drop Rule of Thumb. 50-100 years ago, multiracials became white by the act of passing. But I think nowadays it might be possible to become white while still admitting that one is not 100% European (eg, Wentworth Miller).
That is a sign that the USA model has moved somewhat in the direction of Brazil.
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@jefe,
The problem that i have with that is that “white” people are not confused about who they deem white. All white people know that “other’ runs through their veins, but if they have two white parents; that is what qualifies them as white.
That assessment is also falsely assuming that many non-whites don’t take pride in themselves and will be scrambling to identify with “whites” if the opportunity presents itself. It also leaves out that multiracial or biracials are still a very small slice of the U.S. population and even then, the majority of the biracials are not Black/white but Asian/white, who in many instances still have strong ties to their Asian sides of the family.
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@ qwerty
“Did I mention you by name or was it enough that I noticed something that seems common here and you happen to be a commenter?”—It does not matter if you mention me by name and it does not really matter if it was directed at me or not, but it does not change that it is a habit that you have in many of these threads.
You mention these “common” acts but you do not see where you have yourself done them. So then the question becomes what point is there is mentioning something you do yourself? Are you inserting the idea that you are superior and you do not do this? Is it only a phenomenon that you see in the commenter here? It is what it is.
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“Jamarcus”
Your arrogance offends me … I’ve known plenty of W. African’s (specifically) , who have emigrated to the U.S. , and have then felt that they had license to criticize the indigenous “black” population regarding our work effort … If “you” are so industrious and far seeing , I wonder why you just did not stay in Lagos … perhaps you could assist Nigeria in becoming less reliant on oil exports … If “any” of the big importers decided to embargo your country , the government would collapse in less than two months . But I digress , that’s not “your” fault , is it Jamarcus …. So I’ll hope that you take some time to read about the history of the black Amercan experience , not to give black people a free pass , but too simply better understand “our” experience . (Then years down the road , when you’re in your thirties , you’ll be a much more well rounded young man.) Peace
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Jefe:
Sounds like you went to a great school, actually.
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Abagond, not to go off topic:
But yes, you and others are right–the American education system is literally a joke…
It is not b/c the schools are inherently bad or even the curricula for that matter…the problem lies with the actual hiring process of teachers and administrators which includes nepotism and allowing any organization (TFA and others) to qualify themselves as a body capable of educating teachers. So then, because the U.S. Dept of Ed backs these organizations, American school districts have to then recognize these “teachers” as a part of the teacher workforce. To put it softly–they are not qualified and would be laughed at in countries in Africa, Finland, Sweden, Japan etc.
In my district, i know tons of prinicipals who are bullied by HR into hiring a TFAer or teaching fellow with a provisional license (that has to be renewed each school year) when they really wanted to hire a teacher with a full professional or apprentice license. In fact, some of the best fully certified teachers (with advanced degrees) find themselves displaced from their previous position after summer break b/c their principal had to hire a TFA candidate. Then when principals sometimes do have the choice of hiring a fully qualified teacher, they have already promised their “friend” who may or may not be qualified a position at their school. It all makes for a learning environment where kids of all backgrounds are not getting the best teachers.
Sorry for the rant.
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I forgot to mention Wayne Embry , the NBA’s first black GM (1972) , and no, he’s from Ohio , not Nigeria .
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@phoebeprunelle
How about if we agree to agree on some things, while respectfully agree to disagree on others. 😛
* I think that white people can indeed be confused about whom they consider to be white. This especially applies to the ones that many white people assumed were white. That is one reason why the One Drop Rule has become more of a Rule of Thumb than a hard and fast rule.
The only difference in the past was that before, one had to pass completely. Now, I think they can pass “basically” or “more or less”.
Does the one drop rule apply to George Zimmerman, who is technically part Black?
* Having two white parents is also not a hard and fast rule. If Sandra Laing was born in the USA, she too would probably not be white.
* Over 70 million “whites” have black African blood in their veins. I don’t think Anatole Bayard’s daughter suddenly became black after she found out her father was part black after he died. I doubt her white friends, who had known her for decades as white, suddenly reclassified her as black either.
* I don’t think many non-whites don’t take pride in themselves and will be scrambling to be white. Some do, but probably not most, at least. I never assumed that.
* Actually, about 1/2 of Americans are technically multiracial (over 90% of blacks, the majority of Hispanics, the majority of Native Americans, about 1/4 of Asian-Americans and over 1/3 of White Americans). But only a small, but growing number of them actually *identify* as multi-racial.
* White/Black biracials still exceed White / Asian biracials, but admittedly not by much – they are almost neck and neck.
* “Asian/white, who in many instances still have strong ties to their Asian sides of the family.”
I suppose you don’t know that many Asian/white families, or have not studied and researched them extensively. I personally know thousands of such families or individuals, and have studied extensively many research papers and online discussions on the topic. I have been doing this all my life.
–> whereas there is some definite strong ties to the Asian sides of these families, the majority still lean somewhat more towards white American or “western” culture. I mean culturally — socially, it might be more mixed. There are plenty of exceptions, but I think one reason is the extreme whitewashing performed by the American education system that either tries to make you more white, or ashamed (or use another word – have lower self-esteem) that you aren’t. Asian-Americans are not sheltered from this at all.
I’ll use myself as an example, even though I don’t think my situation is typical. I was born and raised in Washington, DC, but because my immigrant grandparents watched me daily for my first few years, I learned to speak and understand an Asian language dialect before English. Nevertheless, despite seeing my grandparents daily, I still feel my family leaned culturally more towards white American (but actually a mixture of white, black and Asian). I made my own decisions after I reached my mid-late teens.
Even African-Americans, educated in a white culture-based educational system, will learn to assimilate many white cultural norms.
I have met many African-Americans who erroneously believe that Asian-Americans or part-Asian Americans have much stronger ties to their non-white ancestral cultures (compared to African-Americans at least), but the US education system does a great job of disrupting this in a single generation. I actually find most native born Asian-Americans are more estranged or alienated from their grandparents’ cultures than the majority of African Americans. I think that is a stereotype that many African-Americans make towards Asian-Americans (assumption of retention of strong ties to ancestral lands and retention of cultural affinities to combat internalized racism) that is not a fact at all. The few cases they encounter that “validate” that stereotype is confirmation bias.
Do you believe that Black/white families do NOT have strong ties to the black sides of their families? Or are you suggesting that multiracial people have stronger ties to their non-white sides of their family in general?
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@Randy,
You said “Sounds like you went to a great school, actually.”
But I say, no, I did not go to very good school at all. I think it was the typical disdain for academics type of school you find in the USA where they feed the kids stupid pills. That is probably why I was bullied by everybody, both whites and blacks (because I liked to read and do math problems on my own). Only about 1/4 went on to college and half of those had not finished 6 years later.
I was able to do that because
– my mother doggedly pushed the school to allow me to skip grades in primary school, as I could read at 6th grade level before I started 1st grade. I was younger than my schoolmates throughout school and that is why I started 10th grade high school at 13.
– my junior high school math teacher sent in my name to take the SAT when I was 12 – I was the only one from my school to do that. I got the 11th highest score in the state of Maryland and won a scholarship to take a university course (Univ. of Maryland) before I turned 13. But that was OUTSIDE of school.
– My math teacher let me skip over the year of pre-calculus math and proceed to take Calculus when I was 14. I must admit that that teacher gave me encouragement. I did a lot of independent study in Math in High School.
– took French correspondence course from the University of Nebraska as the school dropped teaching French. It was not perfect, but it still got me advanced placement in French in university – could start with the 3rd year level as a freshman.
– begged my parents to let me study Chinese, and they finally took me to a Taiwanese church to learn Mandarin on weekends — this also was outside the school.
My point is, you usually have to go outside of regular school to get a decent education (at least before university). And because primary and secondary school was too easy, I did not necessarily have good study skills when I went to university.
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@ Jefe I agree. when I was young I my reading rate tested at the College level. I was not given the opportunity to skip a grade. I went through school with my teachers putting me into the Magnet sections. Yet, I always had to content with teachers telling me that I used words that other students couldn’t understand. They begged me to use easier words. Meanwhile, not being skipped but going to the grades for four classes that were two or three grades up was daunting. Especially with the teacher saying things like hey look at KOT he is only in this grade and he already knows this. Which mean during recess, I was one of the most hunted kid in the school. Which I learned two things, it is the amount of pressure you put on the ground that makes you fast, and two if people tell you are smart deny it. If you don’t want a beating by kids two or three grades higher than you act dumb as the day is long.
I wish that the now me could have replaced the kid me. The kid me only knew the world he had to live in and acted accordingly. The adult me knows now that if I could have endured the beatings longer I might have walked away with an ok education not the substandard one I had.
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Jefe:
Actually, I suspected as much but didn’t want to assume.
Your story illustrates a central point that I’ve been attempting to make:
Schools predominantly reflect the culture and perform to the expectations that they’re in.
Weak parenting creates weak students and weak schools.
One can easily see how this paradigm would affect kids from all racial backgrounds.
If most of the residents in your old school district shared your mom’s values, there is little doubt that your experience would have been different. None of this requires racism to explain.
That’s not to say that racism doesn’t exist, but that it’s not necessary to produce weak schools. Accordingly, if one were able to waive a magic wand and guarantee the permanent end to racism, failing schools would not immediately thrive.
Ultimately, the main problem is that people are unwilling to accept that they themselves are the main problem. This unwillingness to accept criticism goes double when issues of race are included.
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jefe
” I think it was the typical disdain for academics type of school you find in the USA where they feed the kids stupid pills. ”
That’s the same with most public schools. Parents who care about education go to extraordinarily lengths to get their children a good education. I send my children to a private school in Asia — I’m not living in the US right now. Most of the kids there are smarter than go to the public schools. But I don’t send my kids there because I think it will make them smarter — they all scored pretty close to the top on the entrance exams already. Instead, I send them there so they’ll be pushed and driven and not develop that “disdain” you mentioned.
“my mother doggedly pushed the school to allow me to skip grades in primary school, as I could read at 6th grade level before I started 1st grade.”
I’m not sure skipping grades is such a good idea. I want my kids in the most challenging classes. But I don’t want them skipping grades even though one of them could easily skip a couple of grades. It traumatizes the kid and, in the long run, won’t make a damn bit of difference.
“My point is, you usually have to go outside of regular school to get a decent education (at least before university). And because primary and secondary school was too easy, I did not necessarily have good study skills when I went to university.”
You always have to go outside to get the best education. Those who slink by doing the minimum are slugs even if they’re making straight A’s. However, a school being too easy is definitely a problem because, as you point out, people don’t develop good study skills. Crappy schools don’t make people dumb. They make people lazy. OTOH if the school is crappy then you should have plenty of spare time to study topics of interest on your own.
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Randy:
Schools predominantly reflect the culture and perform to the expectations that they’re in.
Weak parenting creates weak students and weak schools.
So Randy, if you live in an area that only has access to schools that are ‘weak’, and where there is a lack of resources and, your family is poor and your parents need you to contribute to the household so you are not encouraged to pursue anything other than basic reading, writing etc to get by, what then and then told to ‘get a job, any job’ then what?
How are children going to be ‘taught’ about the value of education and doing well academically when they may have the misfortune of coming from an environment where they have barely literate parents who themselves do not appreciate how education can help people further themselves in life?
A system has been perpetuated and ingrained in the education system in the U.S for a long time so it seems and you want to cast blame on the individuals who themselves were the ‘victims’ of this – how do you justify that?
One can easily see how this paradigm would affect kids from all racial backgrounds.
I can see how the negative impact of might be thought to primarily affect non whites, any whites that have experienced this are a probably an anomaly and specific circumstances would have caused this. I think if white children kept leaving school seemingly uneducated and unprepared for the world, the government in the U.S would soon be getting involved.
If most of the residents in your old school district shared your mom’s values, there is little doubt that your experience would have been different. None of this requires racism to explain.
That’s not to say that racism doesn’t exist, but that it’s not necessary to produce weak schools. Accordingly, if one were able to waive a magic wand and guarantee the permanent end to racism, failing schools would not immediately thrive
Again, I refer to my comment above about ‘perpetuation’. If I can see how this type of negative situation develops over time, surely you can too?
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Oh, i definitely agree…
Btw… i figured you were part Asian from other posts–i just didn’t want to ask.
I think that largely depends on which gender of the parent is white. IME, Black/white children whose mother is white tend to identify with their mother’s family. All kids readily identify with their mom’s people anyway unless their father is a widower…
As far as stereotyping Asian/white Americans–what if the ones you know personally strongly identify with their Asian families? I’m not talking about cuisine, i’m saying NAMES.
Thanks for all the other info, however i still think its a bit of a stretch to say U.S. “racial” relations are moving towards what is observable in Brazil.
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[…] The Third Enlargement of American Whiteness (1930-1980) was when the Jews, Italians and others from southern and eastern Europe became White Americans, when they melted into the melting pot. Nell I… […]
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[…] See on abagond.wordpress.com […]
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“Why should my comment go into the Broken Records section. Isn’t that where old regurgitated racist comments ( Black crime statistics, race realist arguments, etc) go? What have I said that rates that sort of treatment?”
*********
Jadapoo1,
Did you notice that I cosigned (agreed with) your comment?
Your comment is an excellent counterpoint to the race realists (and Randy) who regularly use this lame argument suggesting racism’s supposed impotence because certain immigrants come here and succeed in ways and areas that Amerikkkan born blacks don’t.
Your comment isn’t the broken record, it’s the antithesis (answer) to this particular broken record and as such should be posted in the BRD as a statement that nullifies and trumps this – if they can do it, why can’t you – argument.
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I went to a great high school , and , I pretty much squandered the wonderful recources they offered.
The only skill I took, to try to get an easy credit, but I thought it was tedious and hard, was a typing class, and its a skill that I abuse today on the computor, meaning, I type bad, but with technique and speed…
Back in 67, I could have taken computor programming classes, TV production classes, Auto repair, printing grafics classes, a number of classes that would have given me some skills, and, I didnt do it…I didnt even take music classes, Im self taught, except for one year in music school I left because I was learning more on the the bandstand….
I think back though , and feel I wasted my high school years not getting some of those skills..having good skills is something that can help in the real world , along with connections , contacts, and politics
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@KOT
Bullying is also a very tough American phenomenon for kids that appear smart.
When you were in Japan, kids were still bullied, even for being the slightest bit different. But I bet that few kids were bullied for being smart. I associate that with being American. Am I wrong?
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No you aren’t. The bullying there is more for being weak or different but smart is not usually a problem. However, if you are considered too dumb it might be difficult for you. It is mainly being different like returnee kids get bully a lot because they cannot follow the system that well. Same in Korea it is usually the kids that education is lacking that end up on the receiving end of being bullied. It is also the quiet kid.
I was neither quiet or really different kids my age liked me and older kids that I wasn’t in their class liked me also. It was how the teacher put it, like “we all know that KOT knows the answer so I want someone else to say first. Was KOT the only one who did the homework? If you guys work hard you can all be as smart as KOT who is only in this grade. You guys should already know this KOT is two grades under you and he already knows it.” The last sentence was the time I had almost all the guys from the 5th grade class beat me into a pulp I was only a 2nd grader. It was there and then I decided for my health that I wouldn’t pursue the smart angle but as my Chinese friend use to say you hid it badly.
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So, I think we might have a problem here which is not being addressed by educators.
Parents who can afford it, may want their kids who are smart to attend schools where they will not be bullied for it.
But for everyone else, being smart means getting beaten to a pulp (unless, of course, all the smart kids form a gang, go out an lift weights and beat them back).
In any case, I don’t see how America will solve its educational gap if the culture glorifies dumbness and attacks academic achievement.
Anyhow, the goal of education in the USA was to learn to become proud white Americans (or ashamed for not being a white American), not to be smart or achieve academically. If they achieved that, then they achieved their goal.
I was just thinking of that Nigerian brain drain example. Now when his kids go through school, they will face a psychological dichotomy — dumb down to avoid bullying, or endure bullying with a strong alternative cultural counterpoint to put it into perspective. The cultural counterpoint helps to deflect oppression. But 2nd generation Americans have much less access to this cultural counterpoint.
So, I agree with you that something is a bit weak about African-American culture, at least from a psychological perspective. It is not strong enough to protect one, at least psychologically, from white racism. One of the solutions needs to be culture building. If not, then the alternative is to become white (or be oppressed for not reaching that status).
Asian-Americans get stripped of their ancestral culture also. We saw this happening to Mexican-Americans too (esp. where they ban ethnic studies). Once they are whitewashed, they also have to make the decision of whether to become white, or remain non-white and be oppressed (but possibly forming an anti-oppression culture, but this is nothing like the original culture – in fact, Asian-American activism is partially modeled after black activism). If they have not become fully whitewashed, then they still might have a chance to latch onto their ancestral cultures, but it is rare and difficult, esp. if the state bans it.
Most African-Americans (but many Asian-Americans and Hispanics and Native Americans also) are essentially white-washed. The counter culture formed is a sort of anti-oppression culture, which sees white people at the other end of the spectrum. It is possible to form a psychological crutch based on anti-oppression culture to counteract white racism, at least some of the time. But, I suggest we also need to form cultures which are not necessarily white American and which do not look at white American as the other end of the spectrum. Otherwise, you will always be on the oppressed end, if you are not on the white end.
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I am going to make a suggestion to people about countering the effects “white – ification” for POC in the USA. A possible model could be the Eurasians in the Malay Peninsula (Malaysia and Singapore).
They occupy less than 3% of the population, and their ancestry does not point to any single ancestral culture, yet, they have, in large, formed a new cultural heritage that is not based solely on countering European oppression (or Chinese or Malay oppression or whatever).
Portuguese started settling in the Malay peninsula in the 16th century. They brought their Catholic religion with them, but few women, so they formed families with local women (mostly Malay, but other ethnic groups as well). Their children grew up with the Portuguese language (actually evolving into a local creole) and the Catholic religion. Their children often married each other, or sometimes new Portuguese male arrivals (which helped to maintain some Portuguese cultural influence in the families).
Portuguese male arrivals basically stopped when the British arrived in the early 19th century, but they too were also mostly males. Since the Eurasian communities got cut off somewhat from their Portuguese heritage, many migrated over to be more loyal to the British. The British also imported Chinese and Indians to work on their mines and plantations. Along with the Dutch in neighboring Indonesia, there was another explosion of new combinations of Eurasians forming in the 19th century – British, Dutch, Indian, Chinese, etc. adding to the pot.
But, by the 20th century, more Europeans could bring over their women. With European men preferring European to local women, Eurasians got a bit cut off from their European heritage. They also mated less with Europeans, mostly either with other Eurasians or other mixed Asians (eg, mixed Chinese / Indian / Bugis person). The result is that most Eurasians in the Malay Peninsula are mostly of Asian descent nowadays, although many have European surnames. To non-locals, they might look mostly Asian, but speak mostly English, are Christian, and do not necessarily see the other cultural traditions (eg, Chinese, Indian, Malay, etc.) as their own, but ones they share with others.
In the meantime, they have developed many cultural traditions of their own, including food and family traditions, which are not always subject to oppression by the others. So strong was their cultural identity, that until recently Eurasians in Singapore strongly opposed 1st generation children of White / Asian parents to identify themselves as Eurasian (as they do not share “their” culture). That has relaxed now that Singapore allows individuals to choose up to 2-3 ethnic groups to identify with.
The “Eurasians” in the Malay Peninsula do remind me of African-Americans. Their culture can largely to traced back to European western culture, but they are mostly of Asian descent and have formed another culture that, albeit still rather westernized, but containing many cultural elements shared within families and that are not subject to constant oppression from their mono-ethnic neighbors.
It is a habit in the USA to look at the cultural spectrum with white American on one side, oppressing everyone else, but there are other cultural and social paradigms possible. That is why we really have to start with education, and be VERY upset about things like ethnic studies bans.
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@ Origin
I asked last night but I think the page ate my question;
Please elaborate on your “judgement/meaning” connection. PLEASE!
My brain awaits.
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Meaning= melanin
This auto correct shit on cellphones is annoying.
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Omnipresent:
If your family and/or community are unable to provide you with the skills and values which lead to prosperity, then you’re probably screwed. Interestingly, this concept seemingly applies to all the higher mammals.
Omnipresent:
Again, such kids face a difficult road out of poverty.
What you are suggesting is that people are completely helpless to their situations and basically have no free will. If so, then the only solution is for the government to strip such people of their rights and take corrective actions such as:
– Require birth control
– Remove children by force from households with insufficient discipline and unproductive values
– Institutionalize children and educate them away from negative influences
But wait, wouldn’t such a program be immoral and violate the Constitution?
It would, but if one claims that people have no agency of their own, and no accountability for their station in life, then by definition they’re powerless to help themselves. Society must be willing to either leave them to their fate, or intervene intrusively.
Omnipresent:
You’re parroting a fallacious politically-correct narrative which erroneously conflates the ideas of “blame” and “accountability”.
Omnipresent:
You should update your assumptions. As Abagond, Jefe, and others will attest, even preeminently white schools are handing out “stupid pills” these days.
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Omnipresent said: A system has been perpetuated and ingrained in the education system in the U.S for a long time so it seems and you want to cast blame on the individuals who themselves were the ‘victims’ of this – how do you justify that?
Randy said: You’re parroting a fallacious politically-correct narrative which erroneously conflates the ideas of “blame” and “accountability”.
Perhaps others on here can throw some light on this – is it a myth, that schools in certain areas are underesourced and the areas that this most affects are where PoC mainly live? That is the gist that I have got.
Omnipresent said:A system has been perpetuated and ingrained in the education system in the U.S for a long time so it seems and you want to cast blame on the individuals who themselves were the ‘victims’ of this – how do you justify that?
Randy said: You’re parroting a fallacious politically-correct narrative which erroneously conflates the ideas of “blame” and “accountability”.
You seem to be getting the arse here, but let me tell you, I am not the one parroting Bullsh*t here ok. I have been watching you prattling on on a lot of threads and I have not seen any genuine comprehension from you that demonstrates that you understand that the world DOES NOT work favourably for everyone. Inequalities DO exist. It doesnt prevent everyone from achieving but the issues do frequently affect certain people. There are still big disparities that need to be addressed – racism being one of them though this is something that you post after post are unwilling to take sufficiently seriously as to acknowledge that it IS still a very real factor and something that can impede an individuals progress in life.
I will say it again, the fact is, if your parents are ill educated and barely literate having been ‘victims’ of a poor education system, this can – note can, (but not always) filter down to the next generation. The children of this next generation are NOT in the position to make choices for themselves initially – they look to their parents for guidance. By the time they might ‘realise’ that education is key, it may seem to be too late. The next stage is to learn to just get by to ensure you are able to contribute to the family. Some people come out the other side and decide that they will try to achieve academically ‘despite’ their early experiences however, for many, this is not feasible for various practical reasons.
Omnipresent said: I can see how the negative impact of might be thought to primarily affect non whites, any whites that have experienced this are a probably an anomaly and specific circumstances would have caused this. I think if white children kept leaving school seemingly uneducated and unprepared for the world, the government in the U.S would soon be getting involved.
Randy said: You should update your assumptions. As Abagond, Jefe, and others will attest, even preeminently white schools are handing out “stupid pills” these days.
You seem offended by this – perhaps it is you that needs to address the assumption of others! Anyway, perhaps this is not the opinion nationally yet.
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I would say any parent gets upset about designing stupid kids.
http://t.money.msn.com/now/the-childrens-place-pulls-sexist-t-shirts-for-girls
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Omnipresent:
Usually, the question boils down to whether or not investment predicts performance, and if additional investments create significant performance gains.
There are high profile counterexamples of this, suggesting as Jefe pointed out that cultural attitudes are a major predictor of academic success.
Omnipresent:
What neither you nor others have attempted to illustrate is “how much” of a factor it is. Simply name checking a “headwind” doesn’t imply or suggest its significance, nor does it demonstrate to people what to do to succeed.
Omnipresent:
Again, herein lies the intractable problem. Perhaps the most significant barrier to progress for many people are their (and their community’s) own attitudes and beliefs, and yet there is no method to force people to change these.
Worse, we live in an era of enshrined victimology. Nothing is anyone’s fault or responsibility.
In other words, the people who are in the deepest wells are taught that they’re not responsible for being there or for getting out, or that they even have the ability to get out, and yet to get out they’ll need to change their own attitudes and beliefs.
Here we see the pernicious and damning fruits of “progessive” dependency-ideology.
Omnipresent:
If more people believed that the educational system in the US was substandard, then there’d be more efforts to change it. They don’t, and so there isn’t.
Also, it’s hard work, and…
(Shh! My shows are coming on!)
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@Randy
Please don’t try to skew anything I may have said & put words in my mouth.
Racism, family wealth, teaching of white-washed history, school boards, even police protection in a neighborhood, etc all impact academic success.
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Randy:
Randy said: Usually, the question boils down to whether or not investment predicts performance, and if additional investments create significant performance gains.
It is naive to think that if a school is underesourced that opportunities to develope and thrive, keeping in touch with things like technology or access to sports facilities would not affect pupils significantly.
Randy said: There are high profile counterexamples of this, suggesting as Jefe pointed out that cultural attitudes are a major predictor of academic success.
Jefe said: Please don’t try to skew anything I may have said & put words in my mouth.
Racism, family wealth, teaching of white-washed history, school boards, even police protection in a neighborhood, etc all impact academic success.
Jefe’s comment speaks for itself I think – not sure what you were trying to do here but pointing out exceptions to the rule, whilst inspiring for those in the bad situation, feeling they have little options does not change the general and very real situation.
Randy said: What neither you nor others have attempted to illustrate is “how much” of a factor it is. Simply name checking a “headwind” doesn’t imply or suggest its significance, nor does it demonstrate to people what to do to succeed.
Why do you need statistics for this? How would stats ‘demonstrate’ what needs to be done to succeed? What IS important is WHY it is happening – getting to the root of the problem and addressing things from there.
Randy said: Again, herein lies the intractable problem. Perhaps the most significant barrier to progress for many people are their (and their community’s) own attitudes and beliefs, and yet there is no method to force people to change these.
It is possible that this is a factor in some cases but what causes that apathy? It probably comes back to what I have said and that this ‘attitude’ is something handed down.
Randy said: Worse, we live in an era of enshrined victimology. Nothing is anyone’s fault or responsibility.
In other words, the people who are in the deepest wells are taught that they’re not responsible for being there or for getting out, or that they even have the ability to get out, and yet to get out they’ll need to change their own attitudes and beliefs.
How are they supposed to do this if they are not on a level playing field? Where they lack support from their parents/guardians, where the school is underesourced and does not provide its students with adequate and comparable education to other schools? As was said also by Jefe, family finances and crime infested neighborhoods can also impact too.
LOL. What you yourself has said is just another type of shirking responsibility – isnt it?
Randy said: (Shh! My shows are coming on!)
Was I interrupting something or am I missing a joke here?
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@Omnipresent
I didn’t say Randy was wrong per se. I just didn’t want him to believe that academic success was mainly dependent on cultural attitudes and not on other things as well. I think those other factors are also important.
But cultural attitudes are extremely important as well, so don’t belittle them either. I think that in general, the American cultural attitude towards academic achievement is terrible, not only for Anglo whites and slave-descendant blacks, but for 3rd generation Asian-Americans and Nigerians also.
It’s like this. (This is for illustration purposes and not based on any scientific research). Let’s say academic achievement around the world is rated from 0 to 10, and the USA averages around 3.5, with whites at around 4 and blacks at around 3. If Jews and 1st and 2nd generation East Asian descendant Americans average around 5, it is ALL still dismal to places like South Korea, Taiwan and Hong Kong which probably would be at 7 or 8,. I really really REALLY think black Americans should stop using whites as the benchmark for academic achievement and maybe consider comparing themselves (or benchmark themselves) to people overseas. They should try to surpass whites, and demand quality from the teachers and schools and school boards. They also need to demand to clean up the white-washed fairytale history taught to their kids. That should be easier than getting the police to do their job (who spend more time protecting whites and harassing blacks than fighting real crime).
Let white people take the stupid pills.
White Americans are not a good benchmark to measure yourself against. At least, if it is a benchmark, don’t make it a goal. Just let it be a reference mark. White academic achievement is nothing to aspire to.
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Jefe:
@Omnipresent
I didn’t say Randy was wrong per se. I just didn’t want him to believe that academic success was mainly dependent on cultural attitudes and not on other things as well. I think those other factors are also important.
The point that I am trying to make to Randy is that in this instance, much is not as straightforward as he is trying to say it is. I did not categorically say he is wrong but, I find the tunnel vision approach he seems to have adopted does not enable him to see anything else.
But cultural attitudes are extremely important as well, so don’t belittle them either. I think that in general, the American cultural attitude towards academic achievement is terrible, not only for Anglo whites and slave-descendant blacks, but for 3rd generation Asian-Americans and Nigerians also.
I am not belittling cultural attitudes and unless I have made a gross error that has escaped my notice somewhere in my previous post, I did not do so. I dont think you need to preach to the converted here after all, you dont know anything about me or my background.
I think my response to Randy above, whilst going in perpetual circles, tries to demonstrate just that – many individuals are caught up in vicious circles that impede them from achieving. There are many different factors to this but this doesnt mean that everyone from these backgrounds will adopt the same approach, just that the support and guidance they need may be different from those who have not faced these impedements, particularly if strong cultural influences are continuing to be a barrier.
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So, what should we be doing? And is that suggestion realistically achievable according to the current state of the infrastructure and economy or current political climate? IF not, what needs to be done first?
Anyhow, my prior main point was that both you and Randy were using me as a strand to hold up your arguments against each other. I don’t know how both of you managed to paraphrase something about what I said to bolster your argument. 😛
I felt like a hot potato that people toss around and eventually drop. I was hoping you two would put the hot potato on the side bench and continue without it.
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Jefe:
Dont get it twisted – you are acting like I am constantly referring to you – I have not. I did NOT use you as a strand, I responded to something that Randy said is all. Besides, I have absolutely no need to ‘use you’ having close examples of this in my own life.
Here is what I said to Randy:
Jefe’s comment speaks for itself I think – not sure what you were trying to do here but pointing out exceptions to the rule, whilst inspiring for those in the bad situation, feeling they have little options does not change the general and very real situation.
Yes, I mention your name because he used your response to him in his comment to me but, as the comment goes on, I am not referring to you at all but simply about what he was using you as an example of.
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Sorry, I just felt used. 😛
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Omnipresent:
And yet it has been demonstrated that higher investment is no panacea to poor performance. If only the problem were so simple to solve.
Omnipresent
If you can’t quantify a problem, how do can you hope to prioritize it or address it?
Omnipresent:
Handed down or not, people who don’t value education are likely doomed to continued poverty. I stress the importance of attitude because it appears to be the essential ingredient to success. You can’t thrive without it. Other factors may be important, but they don’t appear to be essential in the same way.
Omnipresent:
It was a bit of attempted humor, making light of the general attitude of apathy by many Americans in regards to the work needed to take responsibility and reform the educational system.
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Jefe:
Not a bad idea, actually. Most people can probably stand to raise their game. However, I’d hesitate to hold up Korea or coastal, affluent China as ideal models to follow. The pressure on kids there can be absolutely brutal, with many having little childhood experience outside of lessons, tutoring, and homework. I won’t subject my own children to such draconian regimes.
Jefe:
I’m sure being stereotyped in that way isn’t pleasant, but consider that about 2/3 of asian people in America ARE in fact immigrants. Given that, is such an assumption unreasonable? The same can probably be said of Africans and Europeans in China, and of the Chinese in Africa.
Also, I would disagree that most “whites” feel shame and guilt when they see non-asian minorities. Where did you get that idea from?
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@ Randy
It is Kiwi who said that about the Perpetual Foreigner stereotype.
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yes randy, your second quote was from kiwi. but i will say something. it is wrong toblindly compare african-americans to nigerian immigrants and it is wrong to lump all asians together as recent immigrants.
i agree that the east asian educational model can be a bit brutal. it should not, & could not be copied outright. i know some people who immigrated partially to spare their kids from the educational process. but we can learn something from it too. the us educational system is geared to produce loyal proud americans and fails on the other counts.
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Abagond:
You are correct. I mistakenly typed “Jefe” instead of “Kiwi”.
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Reading some of the comments makes me wonder about people who say they understand racism and then say that Black people of different national or ethnic origins experience it differently…
Case in point–while it may be true that newer African immigrants in America (Nigerians, Ethiopians, etc) may “appear” to make educational gains than older African immigrants (African-Americans), a recent study showed that while comparing the rate of Black women giving birth to babies with birth defects, this was especially high for African Americans who have lived in the States all their lives, but comparing the figure to newer African immigrant women, those who have been here one generation, are now starting to catch up with that figure of African-American women having babies with birth defects.
This is believed to be brought on by the stress caused by racism…
Even Black women who have access to prenatal care due to higher paying careers, advanced education and marriage, all seem to be more likely than white women to give birth to babies who are premature.
Don’t forget the fact that newer African immigrants come to the States and in general place their children in urban schools, so their children are getting the same education of African-American children–which in most instances lacks culture relevance and their are also language barriers unless the child’s country of origin had English as one of the official languages.
To say that African-Americans don’t achieve is a myth. It is really about whites pitting Black people against one another so that we will have no desire to work together for common solutions because it makes “certain” Blacks believe that one group of Blacks is favored by whites. I have heard numerous times Black people say, “white Americans appreciate foreign Blacks more than they do African-Americans.” But white people have done the same things to Black people all over the world so for me that argument is null and void. How do white people really treat Black people differently based on nationality or ethnicity? My guess is that underneath it all they don’t differentiate. The only Blacks who seem to get along more with whites are those who are white-identified no matter where they are from.
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Kiwi:
Isn’t this also true of most societies? The 20th century witnessed some of history’s greatest human migrations. Should we be surprised that this created tensions?
Kiwi:
My personal experience directly contradicts your assertion. The town I grew up in was 95% white. People didn’t consider “white” as their primary identity, but rather that derived from their ethnic heritage.
“What are you?” was a question posed quite often by white kids towards other white kids. Being “white” was somewhat similar to being a “mammal”, a property you may have had but didn’t much identify with.
For this reason, the hubub over the satirical “what kind of asian are you?” video didn’t resonate with me. That may contradict the prevailing PC narrative, but it’s nonetheless true.
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I can vouch for this personally. My fmily was not considered white in the 60’s and early 70’s (and was infact subject to racism in buying a house) but now are considerd white in NY. In the midwest we are considered “ethnic” whites, as in not normal whites.
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So then, who are the “classic” whites? 0_o?
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^WASPs!
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Yeah but “classic” meaning ancient classic…
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@Pheobe
Mediterranean.
Yes, they were consider the dumbest of the European races.
Yes, White Americans (and the West more generally) hold their Classical era as one of the most advanced civilizations of the ancient world.
BTW, Nordics did nothing of comparable splendor before the birth of Christ.
You may now laugh at the irony.
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@D.
But why? Could you explain–if you don’t mind?
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Kiwi:
Perhaps I *am* missing the point.
If the “problem” is not an American one, but rather is a common tendency for a native population to only slowly integrate immigrants, then your complaint seems to be that a basic social characteristic of humanity doesn’t align with your own personal interests.
Do you think that it’s reasonable to expect that the slow course of human change would somehow accelerate to accommodate your own personal interests? If so, I’d be curious to know by what rationale you base this expectation.
Kiwi:
Not me personally, but I do recall two situations in particular in which “white kids” were not fully accepted as being “American”. In one case, the family was Yugoslavian. They looked and sounded different, and were generally treated as such. The other was a British family who had emigrated a decade prior. Looking back, it’s rather unfortunate the degree to which the son was ostracized, but that’s people for ya.
As I’ve consistently argued, much of the experiences that people attribute to “race” can be seen at different “magnification levels” of otherness and groupism. In other words, your experiences are not unique to racial differences. I recognize that this observation contradicts much of the received wisdom of modern, progressive social programming.
Kiwi:
I think the premise of the video, and it’s “teachable moment”, was to suggest that white people focus on the ethnicity and customs of asian people in a way that they would not do with other white people.
Growing up in a predominantly white area, it was my ongoing experience that white people did *indeed* focus quite significantly on the ethnicity and customs of fellow white people.
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@Randy
Oh dear, I think you got really far off track there. I think the premise of the video and its “teachable moment” was to point out how Asian-Americans are just as American as white Americans and it is idiotic to suggest that they are anything but. Whites (and even blacks) come across as idiots doing a conversation such as the following:
Man: Where are YOU .. FROM?
Woman: Well, I was born in Orange County, but I never actually lived there.
Man: Uh, I mean before that.
Woman: Before I was born? . .
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@Kiwi,
Post-Columbus, Asians first set foot in (what is now) the USA in 1585, have had permanent settlements in the USA since 1763 and entered in significant numbers since the mid-19th century. There is still this strong perception in the USA that Asian-Americans are either foreigners or immigrants.
Unfortunately, it even happens to some commenters on this blog. When I mentioned US v. Wong Kim Ark and how the US tried to strip him of his citizenship, people immediately thought that it had to do with an immigrant or immigration (when it had only to do with an American-born US citizen). The perception as “foreigner” or “immigrant” is just so pervasive, but it is also easy to spot and call out. But look at Obama’s “birtherism” problem. It is still here today.
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Kiwi:
I’m not questioning your experiences, which could no doubt be frustrating, but rather their presumed causes, and how they fit into the broader social tendencies of people. I’m suggesting that the treatment you received is probably to be expected, if unfortunate, given the circumstances. See below.
Kiwi:
Short answer: given the circumstances and the nature of people in general, it probably was too much to ask (in the practical sense of the phrase).
Longer answer: Approximately 2/3 of Asian people in America are, in fact, immigrants. It’s not surprising that Asian people would be more likely considered immigrants (even if not), than white people.
I propose that the high level of immigrants among Asian people, and the overall small percentage of Asian people as a fraction of the population, accounts for much of your experiences.
Let’s look at this with some emotional distance:
Say we’re in Senegal, and you’re a native-born Senegalese of African heritage. You’re having a discussion with a native-born Senegalese of Chinese heritage. The Asian person states the following:
“It’s unfair that so many of my fellow Senegalese consider me to be an outsider. They ask me where I’m from. When I say ‘Senegal’, they usually follow up with ‘No, I mean before that.’ Is it too much to ask for people to not assume I’m an immigrant? When I do a google image search for ‘Senegalese’, I never even see an Asian face, only African faces.”
How might you respond to this person’s concerns? Would you decry “black privilege” and “the black default”, or might you suggest to them that since most persons of Chinese descent in Senegal are immigrants, and that Asians in Senegal make up a small fraction of the population, that it’s a probably a natural, if hasty and insensitive, conclusion to make?
I propose that a person of European descent born in China might share the same experiences as you and our Senegalese friend.
Kiwi:
I’m not challenging your experiences, but rather the framework with which you appear to be classifying them. I’m suggesting that the underlying cause of your experience has less to do with unique properties of the United States or its citizens, and more to do with the nature of how populations react to immigrants in general.
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Jefe:
What do you think of my “Chinese-Senegalese thought experiment” to Kiwi above? Don’t you think that such presumptions of foreign-ness are perhaps “normal”, if a bit ignorant and insensitive?
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@ Randy
Your Chinese-Senegalese thought experiment might account for the “Where are you from?” question but not the “Where are you REALLY from?” question. The first question might be innocent. The second one is insulting. It comes straight out of the perpetual foreigner stereotype, which is racist. It says that an Asian person cannot REALLY be American.
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@Randy,
Again, Oh, dear, oh, dear..
Chinese-Americans have been in the USA since the 17th century and in significant numbers for at least 7-8 generations (mid-19th), and even many of the recent immigrants are descendant of the original 19th century immigrants, but prevented from immigrating due to the Exclusion Act and immigration quotas before 1965. If Chinese had already been in Senegal in significant numbers for 170 years, then YES, of course, it is wrong to consider them foreigners. In one more generation it WILL be dead wrong. Singapore still has new many immigrants from China, but it is certainly wrong to consider native-born Singaporean Chinese as foreigners (most of whom came to Singapore at about the same time that Chinese came to the USA).
It is wrong to consider ethnic Chinese as foreigners in Jamaica, Trinidad, Peru, Panama, Mexico or any other country that is well into its 5th – 8th generation of large migration. Do you consider them to be foreigners in Hawaii? It would be like considering white people in South Africa to be foreigners (even though they are a minority and would be a minority for google search on people in S.A.).
There are now some 20 million Asian-Americans and it is the fastest growing, even faster than Hispanics. It is not really that small. And it IS as “small” as it is because of all the exclusionary practices in the USA from 1880s – 1960s, as well as its programs of mass genocide and Asian origin peoples in the USA.
The fact that the media does not portray Asian-Americans is a problem with the media — it does not portray fact and reality.
I will have to revert the statement you just made
and say the same thing back to you with a slight change
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Sorry, I sent my last post before I saw your “Thought experiment” one.
Abagond answered you.
“Where are you from?” is “normal” question.
But it gets worse when Washington, DC, New Jersey, Texas, etc. do not count as answers and proceed to
– Where are you born then?
– Where did you come from before that?
– where are your people from
– Yes, but what is your nationality?
It is somewhat common, but completely racist to make any presumptions of foreign-ness. It is like assuming that black people are from the ghetto or got jobs or a degree only because of Affirmative Actions. The fact that some people do it in no way makes it acceptable.
How would you feel to go for a job interview and the prospective employer demand that you prove that you are a US citizen even though you told them that you were born and raised in Virginia and your parents were from NY and Massachusetts, when they do not require that of the other prospective employees.
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The “What kind of Asian are you?” video that did not resonate with Randy:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWynJkN5HbQ)
Because That Happened To Him Too:
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Of course, if it truly did happen to Randy, then Jefe and Kiwi would not have to explain it to death to him.
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I’m in such an amazingly good mood that I decided to say…Hello Randy. It was rude of me not to have said this before. 🙂
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@Randy,
By the way, where are you from?
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Abagond:
I would agree that it could be ignorant if not prejudicial in some cases, though there’s a difference between assuming that a person of a particular ethnicity might be a foreigner vs. believing that they couldn’t not be a foreigner. People often use imprecise language when asking and answering such questions.
Jefe:
This may be true, but there were almost none where I grew up. Consider that Asian-Americans are not evenly distributed around the country.
Jefe:
You may want to cut our imaginary Senegalese person some slack. There is an important difference between assuming that someone may be a foreigner (given that perhaps where you live there aren’t many Chinese persons around) vs. not believing that a Chinese person could not be a foreigner.
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Jefe:
That would suck.
Abagond:
In your post above, I think you make a good point that cause and scale are important factors in determining the appropriateness of the “but that happens to me too” argument.
Regarding the “what are you?” question between white people which I experienced growing up, the scale was “pervasive”, and the cause I would attribute to “groupism”, which seems not dissimilar to Kiwi’s experience.
Did I like it? No, I did not.
I’m actually the product of a “mixed marriage” (Irish and Italian) and that did lead to some identity issues.
sharina
Hello Sharina. Lovely to chat with you today.
Jefe:
Do you mean originally or most recently? It’s funny that I really do think and/or say that followup question when asked. Originally I’m from a majority-white suburban town in the northeast.
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@ Randy
🙂
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Kiwi, I was in East Africa and an African friend of mine introduced me to an Asian American girl as his “American friend”. I said “hello, how are you doing. Are you enjoying your trip?”. She looked at me in utter amazement and said,”That’s amazing! You don’t have any accent!”. I said “of course not, I’m from America.”. She thought I was African despite the fact that I was introduced to her as an “American friend”. Maybe that’s why you were getting looks on vacation. They just looked at you and assumed you were native like that girl did me. As for what you were saying about being here in the US and being suspected of being a foreigner, I don’t doubt you.
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@Randy,
Oh Yeah, what state and what city? Just answer what you think it means.
@Kiwi,
When you went to Asia, did anyone have any problem with your being from the USA?
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Kwi:
Looks a bit racist… risky click…. now reading the comments….
Oi, all that tortured circumlocution, endless parsing, and PC-neologistic hipsterism (e.g. “Othering”?) gives your correspondent here a headache.
Good lord. Even persons of Asian descent are apologizing for their imputed self-prejudicial beliefs.
(http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2010/02/seek-authenticity.html?showComment=1267083757465#c4538933157098969228)
You’re a stouter man than I, Kiwi for surviving such an experience with breakfast intact.
Kwi:
Ha!
Be careful not to turn into one of those prickly locals who gives static to my fellow milk-fed “rice bros” who are just trying to get their laowai swerve on.
jefe
I prefer not to say.
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@Kiwi,
Yeah, I got a different reaction in Europe, North America, South America and Asia.
Europe was the strangest. In Brussels when I told them that I was from New York, I had many people look at me strange and tell me that it could not be possible, that I don’t look at all like someone from New York. (Then I asked myself, what does someone from NY look like). In Paris, an Arab asked me where I learned French, if I learned it in Japan.
But, I didn’t feel anything like that in Brazil. People wondered why I didn’t speak better Portuguese.
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@Randy,
So is that how I am supposed to answer when I get asked that question?
Everyone who reads this blog knows where Kiwi is from. Everyone knows where I am from. I have no reason to hide it, but people have no problem calling me a liar, or at best accuse me of being evasive. Do people call you a liar when you answer the question, or that you are evasive (when are simply answering it)?
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Jefe:
You can answer as you’d like, of course. If you don’t wish to share a piece of information, and that detail is important for a point you’re trying to make, an approximation may do instead.
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@ Kiwi
Do you mind if I quote you when dealing with such individuals? That was very well said.
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I just purchased this book The History of White People Nell Irvin Painter
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