I wrote a post about the hearts of white people. One white commenter, Zek J. Evets, did not like it and called it racist. He did not simply disagree with the post: He wanted me to take back what I said and apologize! I did not. On his own blog he said this:
Ultimately, it hurts the cause.
And that’s how I feel. Sick to my stomach. Not just because Abagond and his groupies are saying offensive things about me, my family, and my friends who happen to be White and just because we’re White, but because their comments are only fueling the flame of racism in America — just like all the White racist trolls that spam this blog on a regular basis — even as they claim to be fighting against it! Their lies convince none but themselves.
There are at least two things wrong with this:
- It puts the feelings of white people above trying to understand the nature of white racism – which is what I was trying to do in that post.
- It forgets (or maybe never even considered) that I cannot wait till “the cause” tears down the walls of white racism. That day might not come for a hundred years – or ever. I got to live now. Here. In America, just as it is in 2011.
That means it is way more important for me to understand racism than to fight it. Fighting it comes second.
I have to see things as they are, as clearly as I can. I cannot afford the pretty lies that white people live by. They have cost me too much already and have taken me years and years to unlearn – and still I am not completely free of them.
So if I say something that hurts the feelings of white people, too bad. I am not writing for them. They can shut their eyes to this blog just like they shut their eyes to so much else. I am writing first for myself, second for black people and third for people of colour. That’s it.
I make no money from this blog, so “demographics” (a nice way of saying “white people”) do not matter to me. A good thing too since I have seen what it has done to Ta-Nehisi Coates.
There is no way I would be able to understand white racism by playing to a white audience and their tender feelings. Or their view of what is best for black people, something that has a terrible history.
In the past I did write posts aimed at white people, but I have pretty much given up on that. Most are beyond the power of my words. They are too far gone, even those who seem to get it, like Zek.
Which is why I am not holding my breath about white anti-racism succeeding any time soon.
Thanks to Hathor for the title of this post.
See also:
Keep fighting the good fight Abagond!
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White souls don’t need Abagond’s protection, approval or validation for anything.
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Abagond is not the blog of the omniscient & omnipotent creator and the author does not posses the authority to save souls. Delusions of grandeur.
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White people who are at the stage he’s at — taking analyses of general white behavior as personal attacks — cannot be saved. Not actively, at least. For someone like him, I think it will take a concrete event in his life to get to realize what a delusion he’s living. My hope is that, should such an event take place, he’s read enough here to help him make sense of things afterwards.
It’s unlikely, of course, but it could happen.
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I admire your guts, and willingness to be frank about things.
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I’m white and I agree with your post on white souls 100%. Every person in this country should be outraged and disgusted every minute of every day, whatever their ethnicity.
I live in liberal San Francisco and all the white people I know, when asked about racism say “Oh, it’s a terrible thing” but every Monday morning they get in their new BMW’s and drive to their jobs at software companies. Their passivity is as dangerous and damaging as the police officer pulling people over for DWB.
I don’t know what can be done but I appreciate the voices of people like you.
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Like I said on Brotha Wolf’s blog, moderation is a POC blogger’s very best friend.
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Did you hear about the twenty black thugs who gang raped the 11-year-old Hispanic girl in Texas and videotaped their vile debauchery? And how the local black community proceeded to blame the girl. Kind of reminds me of how whites are blamed for everything. Maybe you should hold a prayer meeting to save their souls? Maybe you should engage in a discussion about the spoiled condition of their demonic BLACK hearts? But that’s not what this blog is about. It’s about living in complete denial of black crime and using white people as a convenient smokescreen to avoid addressing real issues that you’d rather not have to face. It’s the blame-whitey as a hobby blog. Good luck producing any qualitative change in your community.
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I have to wonder about people like “Myself”. You’re upset about something and you go on about how this blog is for “blaming whitey” yet your screen name is burning up the recent comments widget LOL, Amazing how ONE blog can irritate some people so 🙂
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Ok, I must say I have no idea what had happened. I have an old computer that crashes whenever I try to open “white people souls” page (or anything else with lots of comments, like Open thread, for example). So I don’t know what was the argument exactly, but I can tell things got very personal.
And I mean personal in “individual and intimate personal” way, not in a collective identity soft of way. (What I’m saying is that when you’re black any racism directed towards you is personal, but obviously things here had moved to Abagond xyz this and Zek xyz that). I am not sure if that’s beneficial or if that has anything to do with the issues discussed. (Not that anybody should care about my opinion, of course).
Now, Abagond, you may write this blog for whoever you want and you are free to allow (or block) any comments and opinions you see fit. But I am sure you udnerstand this sort of subjects attract certain groups of people, be it black or white. Just like “beautiful women” posts attract different groups (or is that the same group, but with different motives?)
All in all, I’m cool with displaying subjective and personal sentiments, especially if it’s within your own space. In a way, it’s better than trying to pretend to be rational and objective if you’re not. But I guess you, as the blog owner, always presented yourself as someone who wants to be objective and rational.
Now, about this post. You said:
That means it is way more important for me to understand racism than to fight it. Fighting it comes second.
I think that’s one of the main problems. If people don’t fight, or at least have an idea how to fight or change things, then I don’t know if they can have a full understanding of what’s going on. You can’t understand racism if you don’t have ANY idea, no matter how vague, on how to fight against it/stop it.
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Abagond, I signed in simply to say keep it up. Stand strong.
For Myself’s comment talking about the texas rape case: Do you really want to stack crimes against society/humanity along color lines? For your kind and perhaps for anyone interested I would like to recommend War Against the Weak: Eugenics and America’s Campaign to Create a Master Race by Edwin Black. For a country whos lily-white popular science was in bed with Nazi Germany, going tit for tat with singular crimes on a race-team basis would end poorly for white people any way you slice it.
To end back on topic, Zek claims whiteness for himself and his family but what exactly is it he’s claiming for himself in whiteness that hes offended by what Abagond has to say about white people?
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Great post! I am an ‘instructor’ in a community college, and the racism I am experiencing from some white students AND administration is awful. I love reading your blog because it helps me with the rage I feel in these circumstances. For me, this blog is cathartic. But the horror of my day-to-day interactions with racists is real, not imagined and endless….
What’s going on with Coates? I was at Howard U. when he was there. I like(d) his writings, but he was stuck in the Civil War..
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@abagond: Good to read this. I always wonder some commentators what the hell they think they are getting into when they come to this blog? I mean, if they can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen, and this is your kitchen and you are the chef.
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This place is like Stormfront for PoC lol.
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What’s going on with Coates?
Coates is not an independent blogger. He blogs as an employee of The Atlantic & therefore, i assume, has to follow his employer’s guidelines.
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Perfectly stated. Ultimately, the only way to guarantee that a blog performs exactly the way you want it to is to create your own…you’d think the big-brained supremacists would have figured this out, no? 😎
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abagond I really appreciate your blog and what you’re doing here. I think you’re digging really deep and taking everyone along with you on the journey to understanding.
We cannot let “hurt feelings” stop truth-seeking. White people are very averse to anything that cals whiteness into question because they are indoctrinated into white supremacy. Zek and others are content so long as you only talk about the “obvious” racists and what is wrong with those people. But as soon as you point out that, just as surely as all black Americans are damaged by living under this system, so are all white people, well now it’s personal for them and not okay.
what kind of ally denies their own racism? Thats just basic stuff right there! Why are they so sensitive? Because this is where they are vulnerable. White supremacy is a house built on shifting sand. Looking at it too closely makes white people nervous. That’s why we must do it though, because keeping them comfortable is why the whole system exists: to maintain their comfortable position.
I have to admit, I’m a little surprised by what happened there with Zek. It was like a massive regression took place. Maybe there’s a clue there that you were hitting on something really key.
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http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=18876
Self-inflicted victimization – Mychal Massie
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Abagond, without having read the entirety of the interminable “hearts of white people II” post, I have to say I can see where Zek is coming from generally.
As I believe King alluded to on that other thread, there is a certain level of ridiculousness when black anti-racists and white anti-racists devote more time to fighting each other than actually fighting racism.
Abagond, you say that the highest importance for you is to UNDERSTAND racism. Yet you don’t seem willing to listen to what a white anti-racist ally has to say if it clashes with your own point of view. It’s a bit odd to write a post about what white people think and feel, yet completely ignore what a white person might have to say on the subject. Imagine if Zek wrote a post entitled “what black people think” and then argued with every black commenter who gave a different opinion. You can’t hope to understand anything merely by making pronouncements about “what white people are like.” I’m not saying you should listen to what every white troll on this blog has to say by any means; but it’s extremely likely that Zek and jas0nburns have insights into the hearts of white people that you don’t.
It’s a shame because the first “hearts of white people” post you did back in 2008 is absolutely on-point, and completely hits the nail on the head about the nature of a racist society. It’s a shame that your views seem to have devolved since then.
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If the moral of the story is “hey WP. if a black person says something prejudiced about WP, just deal with it because you have privilege and we don’t, furthermore this blog isn’t concerned with how WP feel about being racially stereotyped in a negative way because again, you have privilege” fine, great, it’s your blog.
It would be cool if you could just own up to that though. How about you just say that and get it over with so we can all know where we stand.
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Your reading and analysis of so-called white people has been historical, reasonable, and fair, and without a spirit of malice. You have drawn the conclusions that any well-meaning human of any so-called race would draw, and no well-meaning, fair-minded so-called white would/could object unless they either are fundamentally deceitful or have not sufficiently and consistently studied the evidence of the past and present in regard to “white” society. Frederick Douglass observed the warped approach of “white” society in the 19th century; Malcolm X observed the same warped orientation in the 20th century. They both drew the same conclusion. Even though things have changed at some levels, the narcissistic aspect of a race-privileged culture remains the reality that impacts every level of existence for black people and those identified with them (even if the latter don’t want to acknowledge it). As the late Derek Bell once responded after a “white” woman’s tirade on the Phil Donahue Show, you can also say to ZJE, “Keep talking–you’re only proving my point.”
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If having a cushy computer programming job in Manhattan which offers you more than enough leisure time to create your own regularly updated blog equates to ‘white oppression’ then where the hell do I sign up? I guess this is the exact kind of ‘white oppression’ that lures millions of immigrants from all over the world in to the US every year? No wonder not even the border patrol can stop the influx. People literally clawing and crawling over one another to the death in some cases just to be oppressed and mistreated by the villainous white man. What a lucrative offer this so-called ‘white oppression’ has turned out to be. Lot’s of entitlements to enjoy too.
“If the moral of the story is “hey WP. if a black person says something prejudiced about WP, just deal with it because you have privilege and we don’t, furthermore this blog isn’t concerned with how WP feel about being racially stereotyped in a negative way because again, you have privilege” fine, great, it’s your blog.’
It’s the always trusty Al Sharpton play-the-race-card-double-standard. It’s the same mind set which encourages black people to protest a white police officer who shoots and kills a black criminal. But entirely ignores an instance where a black detective is murdered by a black criminal while trying to make the streets safer for their own children. That’s why the expression that you always hear from black folks here in the US is, ‘Stop black-on-black crime’ instead of just stop crime altogether. These people aren’t interested in ending racism. They’re only interested in ending what they perceive to be white-on-black racism. In the meantime they hide behind their security blankets of black self-victimization as a means to be racist while purporting to be combating racism.
I remember when the whole Beltway sniper tragedy was taking place in DC. Black people who I worked with at the time were not-so-quietly elbowing each other saying, “It has to be a white guy because he’s killing minorities”. But once they found out that the perpetrators were black all of the concern seemed to subside instantly and it was back to business as usual. If they had been white it would have been organized protests and continued outrage.
Another incident that I recall is when a group of police officers had allegedly shot an unarmed black man. Cries of white racism immediately ensued.before any of the facts had developed. Then we eventually learned that it was a black officer who had fired the fatal shot. Once again outrage was reduced to silence as if someone had hit a light switch. It’s called selective outrage and it’s hypocrisy at its worst.
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I’ve learned zoo much from your blog. Please don’t stop. I am a medical student and to this day am shocked that a such thing as the “Pioneer Fund” exists. It motivates me to be my best since there are still many “educated” white americans who would want nothing more for me but to be their inferior.
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You hit a nerve, abagond. Keep up the good work!
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Keep it going, Abagond! A lot of what you write mirrors what I feel, yet can’t explain in my own words…’nuff said!
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Thanks as always for your writing, Abagond.
You shouldn’t have to educate white folk. We need more white folk to take responsibility to educate our own & to work against our own ignorance.
Thanks for equipping some of us to do that, even if you’re not trying to address us directly.
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I’m a hard working Christian conservative black American and I personally find it appalling that so many of my fellow black brothers and sisters waste so much valuable time blaming white people for their misfortunes. I wish my people would become mature, put their big boy pants on and finally start to fend for themselves in life. Without always needing the excuse of racism as a lamppost to lean on like a drunkard. Normally I don’t put my own two cents in but as a POC I just couldn’t help myself.
I am living proof that hard work, dedication and perseverance can lead to great abundance in your life. There was no metaphorical white hand of resistance holding me down either. I’m so glad that I was able to fully deprogram myself of the detrimental ways that so many of you have been taught to think. If I continued down your paths I’d still be sitting at home watching Oprah and waiting for treasure to fall out of the sky in to my lap. Don’t wait for God to put something in your lap. Place your lap where God is putting something.
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I think it’s funny how you cherry-picked what you chose to respond to in that thread. In particular the poster “king” listed several examples where racism and oppression existed throughout the world in order to refute your statement:
“But I should have known better since I knew Greek history and enough Chinese and Roman history to know that genocides are rare.”
and to give a wider context to racism and address it as a human problem, rather than a white one.
One only has to look as recently as the Khmer Rouge to see how false that statement was.
I think much of the anger associated with some commenters was your refusal to address points they made, but you probably knew that and wanted to rile them up so they looked stupid. I hope you feel good with your constructed verbal victories; such things do provide a sense of accomplishment, i’m sure.
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All I can add is that anti-racism work is very complex and never, ever easy. White people who participate in it must be prepared for the uncomfortable. Being a person of color in a white supremacist nation is about struggling for basic human rights. If you are white and want to join in, that’s what you have to do, struggle.
You not only have to struggle with us in fighting racism, but you have to struggle with the pain that comes with it whether it’s in the form of screaming anger or crying sadness. Most of all, you have to accept the truths and points of view from POC whether it will hurt your feelings or not and whether they sound “racist” or not.
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I have to admit that I generally do this order in reverse. I don’t think this is antithetical to Abagond’s approach, just different. I guess I can explain it a bit more.
I think that understanding anything can be a dangerous thing once you get started on it. You begin with one question and before you know it it’s three years have passed and you’re still busy understanding it—realizing that you’ve still only scratched the surface.
So understanding has to be seen in many levels. How deep do you go? That all depends on what you’re trying to accomplish. But the understanding itself must be regulated by some necessary limitation or fulfillment, otherwise its bound to become an eternal process.
For example, if I’m going to buy a chair for my dining room, I want to know what color it is, what material it’s made of, what’s the size, whether its comfortable, how much it costs? However, I’m not interested in the cellular structure of the wood. I don’t deed a periodic table rundown of the elements used. I’m not interested in the subatomic particles or the magnetic forces that exist within the structure. Yet, all of that is information…. all of that is deeper understanding!
I don’t need to understand it to that degree because my primary purpose is to buy something to sit on. I may have a few other tangential concerns, but none of them are subatomic.
So purpose drives inquiry.
Therefore, when it comes to American Racism, I ask myself the same kinds of questions: What is the *purpose* of me spending my time considering this? What is it that I need to understand, and why? I could probably give a small list of reasons, but the most basic summarization is this:
I just need to be able to get along with people, and there are millions of them, in this country, that don’t happen to look like me. But I still need to live my life successfully, happily, honestly, meaningfully, among them. There are a lot of people in my life who look very different than I do, and I just need to know how better to understand racism, so that when it does come up, I can deal with it clearly, quickly, and with some forethought, so that I can make things better in the little slice of world that I can influence.
For me, that’s it. I’m not trying to understand any more than that. There is a minimal amount that I need to know about racism in order to fight it. I’m not going to keep handling the radioactive discharge of racism until my hair falls out and I’m my skin is withering away on my bones.
If the study of racism isn’t helping someone’s life to make more sense, isn’t bringing it into balance, and better relationships, then STOP studying it. You only have this one life, it’s too short to make miserable.
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Leroy Brown is a sock puppet of Myself. He is banned.
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Hey there everyone
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“Leroy Brown”? LOL, how much more of a stereotypical name can you pick to use bymyself?
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Why do people like “Myself” feel the need to go through so much trouble?
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Haha awesome, I just love the banhammer <3, he/she was ranting on and on and nobody was engaging 😦 I guess that's where Leroy came in LOL.
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hi agabond, i find your blog encouraging and inspire me. i havent read something that moved me like this since malcolm x and amiri baraka.
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Abagond, I think it’s a great thing that you are able to say exactly how you feel without bullsh*ttin/being PC. However, I also agree with Eurasiansensation. Your writing comes off as incredibly subjective.
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Abagond can say whatever he wants without having to justify it to anyone. He doesn’t need to write to please whites. But if he were writing to be *correct*, he’d alter his tone.
White people have hearts of stone? Folks in glass houses should not throw stones. Take a look at the black community – crime, parental treatment of children, high sex crime rates, high levels of molestation – and then come talk to me about who the hell has hearts of stone.
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I forgot to add…the bit about the Nazis….you’re kidding right? You’ve heard of Rwanda, Idi Amin, and Charles Taylor right? Come on black people. Catch up, the rest of the world is waiting for you.
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“Leroy Brown is a sock puppet of Myself. He is banned.”
I’m not very religious, but this one calls for a HALLELUJAH!
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@ Big Earl & G.L. Piggy:
I am not going to reargue that thread, at least not now. There will be a part three in November and we can do it then. However you should know that in that thread I did say this:
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@GL Piggy:
Who is kidding about Nazis? I find it ironic that you bring up the Rwandan genocide as a singular counterpoint as there is no real argument against those genocides being socially engineered and initiated by Western colonialism after it deliberately forced Western race theory into the social dynamics of that part of the globe.
This hasn’t been to argue that only whites are prejudiced, but to reiterate that registering crimes along a race-team basis since the inception of “whiteness” would hardly be in white people’s favor. In other word’s its unproductive, although it seems awfully effective in bringing to light the delusion that “whiteness” is somehow less associated with criminality.
This is why I’m amused by your listing of crime, parental treatment of children, high sex crime rates, and high levels of molestation. Are you suggesting these occur at lesser rates in the “white community,” or that these are somehow at all relevant to what feeds your offense at criticisms of “whiteness,” so much so that you proceed to prove the point by turning your finger at the “black” community. The heart of stone is precisely what allows a person to see themselves as White and be exploitative of the “black” community whenever facing the context of race identity becomes a little too hard to do. What exactly validates “whiteness” that anyone could hope to be *correct* in addressing the topic, hm? What is correct about whiteness? What are you subscribing to in Whiteness that you are offended?
oh and who is the “rest of the world” and where is it waiting exactly? What would be considered White normative behaviors have brought the global capitalist system to the brink of meltdown. Im not sure too many people, living by race allegiances, can claim such catastrophic failure.
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“Leroy Brown”… Now there’s something which is pretty revealing in itself! 😀
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“Come on black people. Catch up, the rest of the world is waiting for you.”
Come on Piggy!!!
Pay black people back the trillions $$$ from stolen labor, FIRST and then maybe I/we might discuss things happening in the black community with whites!
Hurry now! The world is waiting for you – to tally up what you owe, plus compound interest, damages/punitive costs for hundreds of years of malicious wrongdoing! The disparity in wealth between groups in this country – and elsewhere has little to do with laziness and much to do with a history of affirmative action, (for whites only) outright theft and exploitation and insatiable (white) greed.
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@ Jason
I do not care about the feelings of white people. I said that in the post. Too many times their feelings are used to derail a discussion on race. Their feelings are made to matter more than the truth. I am not going for that.
My aim is to be as honest as I can. I am racist, I live in a racist country, so some of my statements are bound to be racist. You can always call me out on my racism – and should. I never ever said that racism is right. Just do not expect me to fall for a tone argument about your feelings.
I write about plenty of stuff that upsets me – but if you notice I rarely make it about my feelings.
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LOL! Oh, Leroy Brown aka Myself was banned? Check this out people.
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“Too many times their feelings are used to derail a discussion on race. Their feelings are made to matter more than the truth. I am not going for that.”
I agree with this.
However, do you feel that by saying ” I do not care about the feelings of white people” you have lost the moral authority to say that whites lack empathy?
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Watching “Morning Joe” on MSNBC this morning. One topic of discussion was about the evangelical minister who said he would not support Mitt Romney for president because Romney is a Mormon. The host and a panelist continued on about how the “founding fathers” had a sense of fairness and discouraged bigotry. (LMAO)! A quote from a letter written in 1790 by George Washington addressed to the Hebrew Congregation of Rhode Island was used as an example. It reads,” The bosom of America is open to receive not only the opulent and respectable stranger, but the oppressed and persecuted of all nations and religions; whom we shall welcome to a participation of all our rights and privileges, if by decency and propriety of conduct they appear to merit the enjoyment.” I almost fell out of my chair.
Given the atrocities that occurred in this country during the time of the “founding fathers,” bringing up the quote is insensitive to say the least. I wondered if these morning show people were being mean, or if they just don’t have a clue. (I’m tempted to believe the latter). Hearing the comments made me feel as though they believed the world revolved around them and their perspective. They seemed to see nothing wrong about what they said, and had no regard about who may have been hurt or offended, i.e., other people’s feelings. To make matters worse, Harold Ford Jr., the only only Black man on the panel, just sat there and said nothing.
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“I just need to know how better to understand racism, so that when it does come up, I can deal with it clearly, quickly, and with some forethought, so that I can make things better in the little slice of world that I can influence.”
church! To that whole post.
And I might add, this happens to be a goal that can be shared by people of any race, which I would say is a pretty good indication that it’s a step in the right direction, shared goals are the only way forward!
“There is a minimal amount that I need to know about racism in order to fight it.”
I believe that there is a lot of truth to this. This is true for white people as well!
here’s an example
http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2010/05/find-ways-to-counter-racism-of-their-co.html
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Lol @ Leigh
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You’re obviously hurting abagond because I really don’t believe you believe most of this.
And for the last time…explain why you are being hypocritical by calling yourself a racist.? Just because we live in a racist society doesn’t mean we all have no choice but to be racists?
Its like speaking out and protesting against state capital punishment and confessing to being a killer because we live in a violent society.
It makes no real sense….what would make sense. Would Be to write stuff about YOUR OWN feelings it would certainly be more cathartic for you..
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@ Abagond re: Putting someone on blast is not an argument
Some people are not truly called/meant to be allies/friends. I believe that Zek is one of those people.
And yes, whiteness is demonic. It’s clearly a spiritual as well as mental disease/disorder. I cannot stress this enough. Perhaps this might (hopefully) offend /shake-up some sensible spiritually leaning Europeans enough to seriously re-think their membership in this evil club and ultimately abandon the “white” labeling/categorization that harms them – and everyone else.
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@Matari
Its all very well to say: “whiteness is demonic” – whatever that means. But it then makes it hard to argue against white people who wish to label Black people in the same way. This is what is called hypocrisy or having double standards. Sorry but a different way of articulating what you are trying to convey needs to be found.
Which, incidentally, is what I gathered what Zek was trying to say.
The next step after demonic is to say to all forms of demonic whiteness will not be tolerated any more…Now…want to guess the next step after that….?
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I love this blog, it’s my first time here and I must say I cannot pull myself away.
You’ve got a new follower Abagond.
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@ Kwamla
That’s because Martari has fallen back into his bad habit of not defining his term “Whiteness” when he wishes to use it in an abnormal way. He means that the “system of White oppression” is demonic.
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@ Kwamla:
1. I mean that as far as this blog goes I am not going to kiss up to the feelings of white people. I do not mean that in person I am some kind of cold-hearted motherfucker. Or that I am going to go out of my way to be mean to white commenters.
2. Of course I am racist. I have been brainwashed by American society and the racist ideas it was built on, something I have been fighting against for years and still am. It is like a disease. That does not mean I am for it, any more than Steve Jobs (RIP) was “for” pancreatic cancer.
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Kwamla
It simply means that whiteness = white supremacy = a VERY EVIL system. In fact it’s an evil religion, but hardly anyone ever calls it that because most have been condition to think as white-supremacy as it relates/equates to skinheads, KKK, hate crimes, Aryans and deliberate acts of violence. The “next step” that you presented is your idea. An idea that doesn’t have to happen – anymore than calling whiteness “delusional” will/might require your projected “next step.”
“But it then makes it hard to argue against white people who wish to label Black people in the same way.”
Winning arguments is not my concern. I’m much more concerned with stating what’s true, according to how I see it. We each see what we see according to the perspective or lenses we have,
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Matari said:
Amen!
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@ Kwamla:
In America I can have extremely long conversations about racism with people of colour. But with white people honest discussion rarely lasts for more than five minutes. They got all these racist defences, they are not interested in understanding your point of view but of finding ways to dismiss it. My last discussion with Zek was very much in just that vein. The only reason it was able to go on for more than five minutes is because it was online and on my blog.
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@abagond
1.While I understand what you are trying to say. I would express it differently. For example:
While I generally do care about peoples feelings. I don’t care about the feelings of people, I consider, who express racist or ignorant views
And this is in line with the type of person I see myself on-line or in person. But thats me.
2. We all grow up under the mantle of white supremacist thought and logic. Which includes its corollary of Black inferiority.
However, this does not mean I regard myself as racist or inferior. I have sufficiently learned enough about these untruths to challenge them each time I encounter them. Further, I have unearthed deeper truths which allow me understand the basis or need for their original instigation.
So on that basis why would I need to also considered myself a racist?
Particular when I don’t consider racism to be a “natural” phenomenon.
Just like cancer which is the bodies own cellular life structure mutating against itself. Something Steve Jobs, despite his vast accumulated monetary profits, knew very little about when he died at the age of 56.
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They….they…..they…..they……they…………………..it’ their fault! ladies and gentlemen extend that index finger and get ready to point it at someone else. repeat after me….IT’S. THEIR. FAULT!
It’s to bad we can’t make cars that run on blame, as we seem to have an infinite reserve.
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@ Myself:
You were banned for using a sock puppet. That shows you are not arguing in good faith. If I banned people simply for disagreeing with me you would have been gone days ago.
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@Matari
“…We each see what we see according to the perspective or lenses we have,..”
That is an excellent intuitive observation which more than anything illustrates both our views.
The perspective or lenses we have are formed and shaped by the views we hold. In other words – what we believe to be most true
If we believe something to be bad, no good, evil…then by association anything that falls into this category is automatically tainted. Try it for yourself. Just look at the word BLACK for example?
If society tell us this is to be considered: bad, no good, evil then anything this is associated with will also have this description as well.
Your usage of labelling whiteness as demonic is no different here. Unless, of course this is what you truly believe to be most true. Then God help white people!!!
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@abagond
“…In America I can have extremely long conversations about racism with people of colour. But with white people honest discussion rarely lasts for more than five minutes…”
Would this also apply to someone like: Time Wise or many of the other white anti-racists you’ve written posts about?
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@ abagond
You and Kwamla could probably go on having this conversation for an “extremely long” time and yet he’s essentially making the same arguments that Zek and I were making. I think that’s because you and him don’t have anything invested in the “us vs. them” dynamic of the convo. You’re both POC so it’s cool basically. It’s not loaded in the same way. Even King made several of the same observations that Zek and I have made and yet you haven’t really reacted in anything close to the same way to them.
WP do this same thing too obviously so i’m not trying to single you out, but I wonder why you haven’t seemed to notice this tendency in yourself. Your inability to hold a conversation about racism with a white person has at least as much to do with the color of the person saying the words as it does with the words they actually say. What’s your reason for not making note of that?
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Not to pick on Martari particularly for this statement, because I’ve heard this sentiment oft repeated in many other places all over the web, on both sides of many other issues.
Now, I understand when one person has presented and argument, and another person has presented their arguments, and neither are rebutting the other’s points any more. Or if the debate has moved off topic and has devolved into tired mantras, cliches, and name calling, then yes, there is no point in continuing the debate just to “win” it.
BUT on the other hand, I have heard this idea used much too often as an excuse to harbor unchallenged and poorly constructed ideology, without risking uncomfortable enlightenment or public embarrassment.
What one is too often really saying is I know THE TRUTH and if other people can’t accept that, then I’m not going to waste my time trying to convince them.
But that, naturally, begs the question, how do you know the THE TRUTH? Is it because you’ve read certain books that have explained it to you? Is it because people whom you admire, believe similarly? Is it because all of your close friends agree with you? To some extent, we all live within our bubbles, where most of those around us think much as we do. We talk the same talk, we recommend each other the same books, articles, blogs, and Youtube clips. We create our own “truths.” But in reality, it is VERY rare that we truly consider these to be only one perspective through our own individual lens.
That is why debate (argument, if you will) is necessary. It is by exposure to opposition that any truth is purged of the dross of comfortable ignorance, and sectarian tradition. Many have imagined themselves to hold the precious truth high, to keep it unsullied from attack and glaring examination, but it is by just so doing, that many an intellectual coward has been made. The truth can survive attack, criticism, and uncomfortable examination.
If you cannot defend the truth, the chances are high, that you neither know it.
This does not mean that everyone must jump into every argument. This doesn’t mean that everyone knows all of the answers, especially right away—it may sometimes be necessary to back away, reexamine, and return much later, to continue discussing a viewpoint. Everyone should hold open the very real possibility that they are WRONG about a great many things, and be thankful for challenges that may jog them from their course of error, rather than dismissing them. That is one of the reasons I’ve enjoyed this blog, because so many people, with so many different viewpoints find this intersection to challenge one another.
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jas0n,
You appear to be (belatedly) waking up to the reality that much of “anti-racism” is simply just anti-whitism. The evidence is less in Abagond’s posts than in the reactions to them and that of many of his commenters.
Here’s an interesting experiment: take a particularly controversial passage and substitute “whites” for another ethnicity, like “jews” or “blacks”. Then sit back while a tsunami of castigation flows forth from righteous and indignant keyboardists.
In other words, you’re on the wrong side of an accepted double-standard. White misbehavior? Your fault. Black misbehavior? Your fault (due to prior white misbehavior, of course. You see, whites have “agency” while non-whites don’t).
The disconnect is that you thought anti-racism, as it’s popularly practiced, was exactly that.
Now you’re seeing that for many people, anti-racism is actually “selective racism”. Abagond has unintentionally done you the favor of providing a forum for this unfortunate reality to present itself.
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Abagond, you are right in every way in regard to this subject.
I’m not saying this because I think my approval bears any credence with POC, but to let other white people know that it is not some delusional POC-only opinion. If you make discussions of race about your feelings, you have a lot of work to do.
Anti-racism work is a lot like being born again: you start from age zero and mature from there. Your anti-racism skills start out like an infant, which is why you look like a big dumb baby when you talk about “the cause” for POC. I hope for the sake of every person, individually and on a grander scheme that any white person keeps going, keeps working at it. You aren’t done yet. You will never be done. It will never relent for POC, and if you are truly in the boat, it will never relent for you, either.
It’s the price we pay for having a chance at getting our humanity, humility, and grip on reality back from Whiteness. If you don’t want to pay it, own up and be honest and say “I am tired and my privilege allows me to give up and go back to being comfortable” instead of badgering POC.
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Oh, come on Randy, just because some people react in what you would consider as anti-White responses, doesn’t discredit most of anti-racism as anti-White. You are taking a huge and illogical shortcuts there.
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@King
This was quite an informative comment King And its about time you decided to make this kind of contribution. It avoids the dangers of debates like this becoming too polarised.
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I agree with King Randy. Some people here seem to hold some stereotypical and prejudiced beliefs about white people. But to me anti- racism is more about the systematic elevation of WP over non- whites. That system exists and it’s unfair regardless of whether or not some POC feel the need to “practice what they preach”
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@ Kwamla
Well, I’m sure I must have said things similar before. I’ve always upheld open debate as the crucible for truth testing. The Scientific Method itself is based on the merciless critique of theories and ideas until they can can be proven through intellectual adversity, and finally accepted as present truth.
As you know, we’ve had MANY such discussions here on Abagond, notably back in the HBD wars (which exhausted us all). But certainly this has been quite common.
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why is it that expectation of consistency keeps being labeled as feelings? F@ck feelings. Y’all can’t hurt my feelings I don’t know any of you people. I think this WP’s feelings talk is just another way to say “we don’t need to be consistent, racism is unfair so we don’t need to treat WP fairly” I mean if you REALLY don’t care about sparing our feelings just be real about it.
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Abagond, you are aware that today is Maroon day in Surinam? It is the day to commemorate that black men (and women), who found being a slave there did not agree with them at all, and thus moved from the plantation to the pristine South American rain forest, deadly as that may be to the novice, managed to fight white people to a peace agreement, the first of the peace agreements that lasted and which was the “prototype” of the othere lasting peace agreements was signed on the 10th of October 1760. There are six extant Maroon nations in Surinam (though quite some of their members moved to either French Guyana or the Netherlands, for various reasons).
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Did anyone read the recent but largely unreported news story posted at The Grio website a while black about the black preacher couple would brought their own black slave here from Africa? No one wants to talk about it when it’s our own people enslaving us? Come on now. And then you wonder why white folks don’t take us seriously? I can think of one prominent black radio host who covered this topic.
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Black folks better snap out of it and soon because we are doing ourselves in.
http://www.thegrio.com/news/black-church-couple-use-african-servant-for-forced-labor.php
‘Church couple uses African servant for forced labor’
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Abagond ^ Myself again?
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Wow – it’s a troll explosion!! People, please try to control the numbers of unwanted trolls in America; have your local troll spayed and/or neutered.
I can dream, right? 😆
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“I can dream, right?”
And dreams can become a reality, lol….
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@X-man
And then you wonder why white folks don’t take us seriously?
They dont? 🙂
‘King
Abagond ^ Myself again?
I do wonder….
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@ Randy and Jas0n
“Now you’re seeing that for many people, anti-racism is actually “selective racism”. Abagond has unintentionally done you the favor of providing a forum for this unfortunate reality to present itself.”
I don’s see how there is any evidence for this. Its this sort of continuous effort to normalize the white/black dichotomy that has made this fabricated race theory as insidious as it has become. It first requires there to be some agreement that these globally monolithic lumps of color are races in the same way nationalism births its own races. However, its perfectly self-evident that White is not the equivalent of German or British or Hungarian, nor is Black the equivalent of Jamaican, or Ugandan, or Ghanaian. So what then actually gives validation to these colorizing blanket labels? Where did they come from?
“The next step after demonic is to say to all forms of demonic whiteness will not be tolerated any more…Now…want to guess the next step after that….?”
To this I also disagree, and this is where I believe there is a fundamental difference between Black criticisms of Whiteness and the opposite. Given its global eugenic history, which is its only substantiating history, Whiteness is built upon psuedo-scientific notion of superiority. Period. Without a desperate scientific basis there is no other validation for Whiteness. There is no planet of White. There is no country of White, so there exist race realists who insist that race is science, and that we are hopelessly subject to this science. If social race has genetic underpinnings we can then offload our prejudice to some higher power, and say, “look its science that says I’m White and you’re Black, and Im gifted to be in this place of superiority. Its genetic, and thus biologically pre-ordained. Its inherent and cannot be changed.” In other words White people actually believe that they are White in the totality of their existence, that they cannot be in any way be separated from their Whiteness. As my brother likes to say, for White people, race is biological destiny, and they remain incapable it seems of recognizing a time when they were not White.
This is not necessarily the case from the “Black” point view, recognizing again that Black people became categorically “Black” solely as a result of eugenically motivated colonialism. I cannot speak for the entirety of the Black monolith as its a false monolith to begin with, but there does exist the capability of “Black” people to separate their humanity from these color race labels, because its precisely these color-race labels that represent their dehumanization in the first place. Therefore, for Black people, “Whiteness” can be an entity entirely separate from white-skinned flesh-and-blood humans that have adopted the label. The significant difference is that, in this case, there is a capability to recognize Whiteness as an invented social evil unto itself and yet love people with light skin.
Criticisms of whiteness can be and are often born not to marginalize but to bridge relationships. There is a reason “Blacks” are considered the most accepting racial group. Whiteness is a wall and light-skinned people are on the other side of that wall. Dark- skinned people are attacking the wall, but light-skinned people insist on considering themselves the wall, and “Blackness” to be inseparable from the dark-skinned people trying to break through. This is why I continuously ask why it is light-skinned people defend Whiteness, and insist on subscribing to something that probably burdens them more than anyone else?
Now of course White people, still seeing themselves as impossibly White, will flip the script and say, “well fine then, we’re just attacking the wall of Blackness.” This is ingenuous to the greatest degree, because if White people always saw Black people as equally human unto themselves, as true brothers and as true sisters, there would never have been a wall built in the first place. The problem with tearing down that wall is that the White identity will come down with it, whereas the Black identity which has now been grounded almost exclusively in the struggle of tearing down that wall will only be further affirmed. This has been a generalization in some respects, but the point remains intact. Intolerance of whiteness does not equate to an intolerance of light-skinned people, nor does it necessarily equate to rampant bigotry, which would be a precursor for genocidal chaos. There are very real historical connections between the purveyors of Whiteness, colonialism, and the legacy of Hitler (some of Hitler’s greatest mentors were Americans who invented eugenics and injected race theory, aka Whiteness, into societies here and abroad.) Being against that legacy and attitudes of that legacy does not equate to advocating genocidal race views. That should go without being said, but there still seems to be the tendency to equate anti-racism with racism simply because the most visible and prominent form of racism stems from Whiteness, which is not national but global.
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I’m beginning to think that some here are “trying” to be deliberately “stupid.” All this hinting and suggesting and accusing and believing that white people are being hated and called evil and whatever your over-imaginative minds can conjure and dream up.
It’s been said by me that “whiteness” (sorry king and Kwamla, I not going to keep explaining the word each time I use it – if your haven’t figured out the context I’m using the word in by now …) is evil. If folks wish to surmise that I’m calling all white people, or certain particular white people evil, then that’s strictly on them.
@ King & Kwamla
I wish to express this sentiment just once: I don’t recall enrolling in any courses or classes or schools where either one of you is employed to be my instructor/teacher/adviser or writing tutor. Nor am I here to “debate” whatever my beliefs are – according to someone’s satisfaction other than my own. If you don’t like my opinions or truths regarding how I come against racism, or my thoughts on any matter – the intelligent course of action – in my opinion – is to simply state YOUR OWN ideology, opinion, or truth. I’m NOT here to fight/debate/win/tussle/prove/compete or antagonize anyone. Neither am I here to be a benchmark or counter example for your positions or ideas. I’m fighting whiteness the way I know how to fight it, with my own subjective words and manner. If this does not meet your mind, King, and Kwamla, then that’s too bad. 😉 I’m finding your comments adversarial and disruptive regarding the issue at hand. They are not constructive, and when victims of racism aren’t being constructive, things can go terribly awry, quickly!
The more I observe and think about many of your comments, the more you appear to be apologists – for whiteness. Think about that.
The Creator didn’t form me to be like either one of you, obviously.
And I love it that way.
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If you don’t like my opinions or truths regarding how I come against racism, or my thoughts on any matter – the intelligent course of action – in my opinion – is to simply state YOUR OWN ideology, opinion, or truth. I’m NOT here to fight/debate/win/tussle/prove/compete or antagonize anyone. Neither am I here to be a benchmark or counter example for your positions or ideas. I’m fighting whiteness the way I know how to fight it, with my own subjective words and manner. If this does not meet your mind, King, and Kwamla, then that’s too bad.
You took the words right out of my mouth, BRAVO!!!
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“The more I observe and think about many of your comments, the more you appear to be apologists – for whiteness. Think about that.”
The same conclusion I made about Kwamla…
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@ Newdiction
“This is why I continuously ask why it is light-skinned people defend Whiteness, and insist on subscribing to something that probably burdens them more than anyone else?”
That’s interesting. Why do you feel that whiteness burdens WP more than POC?
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An interesting article:
http://www.nathanielturner.com/whiteantiracistsopenletter.htm
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@ herneith
from your article
“Rather, white people need to be willing to have their very social position, their very relationship of domination, their very authority, their very being…let go, perhaps even destroyed. ”
their very being destroyed? does that mean kill white people? or is that supposed to be some other type of “being”.
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Oh boy, now we’ve entered Strawman 101 territory. Did anyone say that I was your instructor? If I have said that somewhere, then please just point to the place where I did? Or else kindly have the wit to speak about things that have actually been said, outside of your own imagination. Can you manage that?
Secondly, in case you hadn’t noticed, this a comment section. People comment on other people’s comments all the time, INCLUDING YOU! So if you wish to follow your own advice, then may can cease commenting on anything but the original post, but please don’t attempt to tell me where I may comment. I hope I’ve made that clear enough for you to understand?
You are “fighting whiteness” on a comment blog. Do not be surprised when you find that some people may disagree with what you’ve said, and explain why they do. That is the nature of stating your views in a public forum. If that is too disruptive to your own assumptions, then it may be easier for you to start your own blog, disable the comments, and vomit your wisdom into the vacuum of the web unchallenged by any other mind. The other option is to grow up and learn to accept that “your own subjective words” get challenged in a real world of people with different ideas.
So then… you are allowed to fight whiteness in your own subjective words and manner, but others are not allowed to critique in their own subjective words and manner? Wake up and smell the stink of your own hypocrisy. You can find other people’s comments to be disruptive and non-constructive, but BOY, please don’t say anything bad about mine! I’m not here for anyone’s approval!! PLEASE think. Please.
Ahh… at last, the predictable Coup de grâce…. “The more I think about it, the more I think you’re just advocation for White PEOPLE!” Hahahahaha… Pathetic.
Let me tell you something, sport. You are going to find out that there is a big old world out there, and everyone in it is not going to agree with you. Now here’s the real kicker,,, not all the BLACK people are even going to agree with you!! If you keep using that old, “If you don’t agree with my Opinions on how Blacks should think, then you’re advocating for WHITENESS!” then you are just going to make a huge fool out of yourself.
Who do you think you are, George Bush?
“If you’re not with us, your’e against us!”
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Did you read the article or just skim it for what you percieve as inflammatory? Race is a social construct, hence ‘whiteness’ is a social construct. Throw off this construct of ‘whiteness’. She is not alluding to genocide. Had you read the whole article you would realize that. The relationship between the ‘white’ anti-racist and the racialized people they are purportedly helping is, from the outset, rife with power imbalance due to this white construct. In other words dismantle the white construct with its’ intendant inequalities.
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Abagond:
“I have to see things as they are, as clearly as I can. I cannot afford the pretty lies that white people live by. They have cost me too much already and have taken me years and years to unlearn – and still I am not completely free of them.”
So, so, so very true.
I identify with that state of being totally naive.
Things would happen that confused me because I didn’t really understand the white supremacy system. I didn’t understand white people. I didn’t understand racism as a cultural norm.
I didn’t understand how the cultural template produced people that mirrored its personality.
So when people are try to steer me back into ignorance with ‘race doesn’t matter’ and other platitudes it’s funny to me. I was there!
If you are going to buy into what the “West” means, celebrate its ‘greatness’ and project a positive image of it, you are compelled to be racist or self-hating.
How did Europe become rich and the rest of the world poor when there are more human, mineral and natural resources outside of Europe?
The untidy reality is that America and the entire ‘West’ was built on the annihilation, enslavement and exploitation of other people.
You cannot study the actions that got us here and get around this.
Therefore the ‘indians’ had to be demonized, the blacks had to be demonized so that history could be revised as a battle of white good versus other evils in which good prevailed.
But really, the victims of imperialism hadn’t troubled white people or invaded Europe; many helped whites who shipwrecked on their shores.
White death sought them out; any violence on their parts was only retaliatory.
The depth to which this goes is the reason why you could say many whites arre “too far gone”.
To truly reject racism would be to see the last 500 years as being as unjust as it really is.
But the past exploits are sanitized and celebrated (today is Columbus Day).
Rejecting it would involve a rejection of the ideas that bestow a large portion of their collective self-worth.
Not bloody likely.
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I did read it. I was just asking because I couldn’t tell. “destruction of ones very being” is the definition of physical literal death. it’s not like it’s odd that I would read it that way. For the record I’m still freaked out by it.
one reason I am confused is that it’s very possible for a white person to “dismantle the white construct” without “destroying ones very being” so maybe it is advocating genocide.
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“Throw off this construct of ‘whiteness’.”
according to her we can’t. That’s why I see it as advocating genocide.
She basically said there is no way you can be a white anti-racist. you can’t be white/have white skin and be anti racist. She says that out right even the skin part. She says it’s not possible for a person with white skin to “throw off the construct of whiteness” as you say she did. Did you f*cking read it? She basically said if you want to be a white anti racist, prepare to be killed, but she was too much of a p*ssy to actually say it because she would be dead or in jail herself. Real “intersting” article indeed. smh
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Abagond.
Well, you’ve done it. You’ve proven every white racist troll who ever posted here right. Congratulations.
Signing off for good. I’m banning myself, I don’t want to let your twisted ideology to infect me any further.
PEACE OUT!
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“I’m banning myself”
GREAT! First Zek, then bymyself, and finally you. This blog is getting better by the day……
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@jasOnburns,
I think you entirely missed the point of Kilja Kim’s essay. If you had really read it you would see that she means that if you want to end racism, you need to talk to white people about it, not come to this blog and try to take it over with how you think and feel, in essence, you have proved that you are still struggling with your sense of superiority and also, you demonstrate to me an awful lot of fear, as in the way you interpret the essay to mean kill all whites, it is very sad that you are so afraid, I hope you get a grip:) At this stage in your emotional roller coaster, I don’t think you would be able to talk to other white people about racism, because you need to spend a lot more time listening and thinking about what is said without being so afraid and defensive.
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@jasOnburns, I also want to quickly add that when you were asking for characteristics of whiteness, it would be just as you have been demonstrating,
1. trying to take over because you are the expert.
2. negating the experience of the people who are experts.
3. demanding that everything is defined on your terms.
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@ Jas0n,
C’mon man, you’re picking the wrong battles on this thread and you know it. You can have light skin and be anti-racist. Anyone is wrong to suggest that light skinned people should be killed, physically harmed, displaced, etc. That is not the answer in any way shape or form.
“That’s interesting. Why do you feel that whiteness burdens WP more than POC?”
Because, they are living in an ever present and self-perpetual denial of themselves. For everything POC must struggle with they don’t have to struggle with that. Whats worse is that this impossible identity conflict of Whiteness is self-inflicted, its wholly willful and ultimately it brings the same dehumanization down upon themselves along with the entire responsibility of race history. My experience and my understanding of Whiteness, especially wealthy whiteness, is not from the outside in, but from the inside out. I know the actual conditions of this intersection of race and class. I know the politics of their social paranoia, their fear, their entitlement, their pride. These are very proud people, and people with light-skin have access to that brand of arrogance. Even as the last bit of their socio-economic Titanic sinks beneath the waves, they’ll go down clutching their superiority complex to their dying breath.
They are the arbiters of reason, the titans of industry, the innovators of modernity, the champions of capitalism, the monopolizers of freedom, the kings of finance. They are gods among men. They’ve earned it, and they’ll be damned if they must reinvent that self image to be inclusive of the brown-skinned mongrels that color their popular culture, taint their women, and provide them with sports entertainment. And they’ll also be damned if you dare suggest they hold the views they just espoused, because the good Lord knows they didn’t earn all that just to be slandered as racists. Oh no. No, its time to circle the wagons, load our personal-responsibility guns and get set to fire a glorious volley from within our exclusive “socialist” camp that continues to be globally bailed out with trillions of dollars. After all we’ve also thrown ocean-loads of this fiat currency at third world problems we catastrophically exacerbated, so clearly we’ve done our part.
But I digress 😉 It burdens White people more than anyone else because they have more to lose then anyone else, and they’re already burdened by the paranoia of how they got what they have in the first place. Its 24/7 damage control at a global level. That’s not a particularly enviable position. Looking at yourself in the mirror and repeating “personal responsibility” and “self-determination” is little consolation when POC and light-skinned people across the globe aren’t buying it for a second. So here you have White people standing on a stack of toothpicks end-on-end over a pit of vipers, as they perceive it. Its that ever-present fear that if that wall of whiteness drops, they will be overrun. If you have the tiger by the tail you can’t let go. White has to be right, because if its wrong your f*cked. Its a very unproductive, self-preservationist defeatism, and it needlessly makes enemies out of allies that want to have pride in their country and help it recognize the greatness it can achieve in a new age.
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@ Herneith:
Why, thank you!! I’ll have to pick up a case of that on my next excursion to the Andromeda Galaxy…shall I pick up something for you while I’m there? 😎
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A friend pointed me to this blog for a definition of something – “native informant”, I think – and I’ve been stuck on it for a couple of days now. Fascinating reading.
There was something bugging me about most of the posts I read. This post helped me put my finger on it: you aren’t Telling Me What To Do. My automatic assumption was that the default audience would be light-skinned people like me, and that you’d be telling us what we should do about racism. Reading this post was an amusing bit of self-revelation.
(And this comment itself is an example of transforming what you’re saying into a discussion of the feelings of a white person. DAMMIT, MAN, HOW DID YOU READ MY MIND??)
Anyway, interesting blog. I disagree with 46.7% of what you say, but I promised myself not to argue on the Internet anymore.
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Why, thank you!! I’ll have to pick up a case of that on my next excursion to the Andromeda Galaxy…shall I pick up something for you while I’m there?
How about a Tano handbag?
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Well I’m signing out for a bit, but wanted to say thanks Abagond for creating this space to contribute a little thought and a little tongue-in-cheek. I got a little laugh out of the TNC dig. I’m not a regular in the respect that I don’t comment nearly as much as I follow. I didn’t feel like the post was disagreeable as much as I felt like it left the door wide open for misunderstanding. Personally I thought it was nice to have Zek and Jas0n around, but that’s my two cents.
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King said:
I’ve formed this opinion from exposure to a variety of sources over a reasonably substantial period of time. We can discuss in greater detail if interested.
Here’s a simple but likely illustrative experiment: let’s google the top 20 race-related blogs (of nominally anti-racist comportment) and submit one of the following comments:
“I’m black, and I agree with Tim Wise about what’s wrong with white people.”
or,
“I’m white, and I agree with Bill Cosby about what’s wrong with black people.”
Anyone care to predict the reactions?
If those statements aren’t sufficiently balanced, I’m confident that any similar pair will elicit the same results. You pick the potentially biased statement, we’ll swap out the race-identifier, then post to a collection of popular and relevant fora.
Step right up and place your bets, folks.
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@ Randy
Your thought experiment seems faulty from the door. How many people know of Tim Wise, when in comparison to Bill Cosby? Knowing how much sway a celebrity has over your “Average Joe” in America, how many people will hold on to the words of someone like Cosby (who had massive media attention) over an expert they’ve just heard of (who is still primarily unknown)?
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X-man is banned for using a sock puppet, DownWithThemHomeboys.
Oddly enough Myself had a sock puppet in moderation at the same time: Real Homeboy, which spoke fake Ebonics (“Yo, there be a flash mob coming up soon”) and felt the need to inform us that he likes grape soda. Yo.
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Denial is the favored weapon of the white racist along with the attack of the strawman – “you’re blaming all your failures in life on whitey”, which portrays black people as race hustlers who claim racial discrimination falsely at every opportunity as a tactic to avoid taking personal responsibility for their own dysfunctional lives using innocent decent white people as their scapegoats.
These are the main tactics of the white racist, Conservatives, tea party people and Neo Nazis use it all the time.
Though crude, untrue and obvious, it is a very effective tactic, because it gives white people an alternative narrative that allows them to deny white racism exists and blame black people for black and white racial disparity and disharmony. Many of them actually believe this stuff is true.
This fantasy version of reality is very appealing to white people in general because believing it allows them to ignore White supremacy and racism (which they find even hearing about irritating because it doesn’t affect them negatively and the suffering of black people means nothing to them) in society and carry on believing white society is good, fair and just to all.
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I’ve read through the comments on this post. Automatic white-guy reaction: “He’s chasing away the white people. How can you have a discussion on racism without a white perspective?” Catching that thought flying by was another amusing self-revelation.
Anyway, here’s to hoping that your children or grandchildren can have the same automatic assumption that their voice matters in any discussion whatsoever that many white people (or at least white males who make blog comments) do.
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@ Matari (& his unelected sidekick MK82)
Well if you didn’t want to start a debate you certainly don’t know how to avoid one!!! You had better sit tight because I am sure this is going to be a long response. Which probably means MK82 should leave at this stage because what I need to say is not going to be available in a small enough chunk for him to assimilate. So I’d leave now and let Matrai fill you in afterwards. But if you choose to stay don’t forget I told you so.
Matari. Unlike some of the views you expressed in your last comment. I am always generally open to listen or read what other people have to say. – I don’t really care who they are as long as they appear to really have something to say.
I’ve been reading your comments for a while and generally I would say this is the view I’ve formed of you. YOU DO have something to say. So lets focus on that for a moment.
“…“…We each see what we see according to the perspective or lenses we have,..”
A simple but profound observation which I think, unfortunately, may be lost on all of us who comment here. Which is what led me to make this comment:
“…The perspective or lenses we have are formed and shaped by the views we hold. In other words – what we believe to be most true..”
I had to go to another thread to find this nugget from you:
You’re obviously well informed because I don’t think you’ll find myself, or even King, would disagree with you on that insightful observation.
So how is it that King should be driven to make this statement based on your last UN-insightful comment which I too share King’s viewpoint on?
“…You are “fighting whiteness” on a comment blog. Do not be surprised when you find that some people may disagree with what you’ve said, and explain why they do. That is the nature of stating your views in a public forum. If that is too disruptive to your own assumptions, then it may be easier for you to start your own blog, disable the comments, and vomit your wisdom into the vacuum of the web unchallenged by any other mind. The other option is to grow up and learn to accept that “your own subjective words” get challenged in a real world of people with different ideas…”
Ok…Now we are getting into the parts where, quite frankly, I don’t think you really have much say or wisdom to offer. But…Following on from the point King was making thats just my humble opinion of course!.
We are all in the process of learning when it comes to the pervasive, insidious and debilitating nature of white supremacist ideology. No one here knows it all be they Black or non-Black. Because we are all affected by having to live under it. We are just not affected in the same way. But I am sure I don’t need to lecture you about this.
What I do need to teach or lecture you about… (and thanks for the invitation, by the way, you inadvertently gave this)
“…I don’t recall enrolling in any courses or classes or schools where either one of you is employed to be my instructor/teacher/adviser or writing tutor. Nor am I here to “debate” whatever my beliefs are – according to someone’s satisfaction other than my own…”
…is…being:
(1) consistent,
(2) open and accountable to your own statements
Its true you never elected me to do this but I am glad to volunteer nevertheless. Which is all what #1 & 2 are about.
If you are going to insist on making statements like this:
And this…
You need to be prepared to open yourself up for questioning to defend it. Otherwise why should anyone even pay attention to you? Or believe there is any credibility in what you are saying?
King, I recall, offered you this to consider:
“…That’s because Martari has fallen back into his bad habit of not defining his term “Whiteness” when he wishes to use it in an abnormal way. He means that the “system of White oppression” is demonic…”
Which would be a more consistent way to express what you are saying. Not because it may sound better to “white ears” but because most people reading here, I would bet, can understand or relate to that “system” you are at pains to describe. Its about being clear in stating what you really mean without being unnecessarily (and controversially) ambiguous.
Because lets face it . If you really think you are not linking or associating – “whiteness”, “evil”, “demonic” along with “white people” then this is why you need this lecture.
However, …
If you really do mean to say WHITE PEOPLE ARE EVIL OR DEMONIC then just be honest, open, consistent and accountable for your views and say so!!!
Just because you don’t explicitly say this doesn’t mean you don’t think or believe it. You IMPLY IT with your obvious statements and refuse to be accountable for clarifying it.
Whats wrong with just admitting it ? As they say call a spade a spade.?
Now of course you don’t have to do any of this. After all its your truth and if this is what you truly know and believe in your heart then you don’t have to defend it to anyone.
No…the person who really needs to defend this is abagond. Not because its too terrible a thing to say that its going to offend white people and make them run to the “internet blogsphere hills” with calls of “reverse racism” from so called Black anti-racists. But because (and I have already said this many times before) its far too simplistic for analysis. On a blog like this which proclaims some degree of objectivity and openness from its past examinations of white racism and anti-racists points of view.
Why not prove it!!! Abagond why not do a post on any respected Black author, speaker, political activist etc… who says, as Matari does:
“whiteness” is evil.
I know you never said this. But you don’t have to agree with it either. But…you too are implicitly supporting this assumption by leaving it unchallenged and producing further posts which detract away from this.
I, and I am sure most of your readers, (the ones who are still left!!!)
would be beneficially enlightened.
Well…having thought about it I think its more (I am embarrassed to say) an apology for non-intellectual, victim of racism based suffering mentality, Black ignorance.
Because if we continue to see or believe of ourselves as Matari says:
“…and when victims of racism aren’t being constructive, things can go terribly awry, quickly!
….then they have already gone awry!
This is why, as Black people, we can never be successful fighting for anti-racism or against racism from a victim based mentality. Because we will always be seen as victims by everyone including ourselves.
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@Kwamla
‘This is why, as Black people, we can never be successful fighting for anti-racism or against racism from a victim based mentality. Because we will always be seen as victims by everyone including ourselves’.
Cant hide my discomfit with this remark – I guess it resonates because there is some truth in this. However, I do feel that there are exceptations to this though. Even on this very blog there are people who can articulate and express things and be objective rational and well reasoned response/approach 😮
I feel that part of moving forward is understanding ‘why’ we as ,’people’ react/respond to certain things in certain ways. When we appreciate that, this can fuel our learning and development and growth occurs.
Think I’m just trying to bring some passive optimisim here – 😉
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I want to interject something here…if the term ‘whiteness’ has to have a complete, definitive definition that everyone is comfortable with, then I challenge the term ‘victim’. I’m getting sick of hearing that I, as a PoC (and female), somehow have a ‘victim-based’ mentality solely based on the hue of my skin. Was I victimized as a child? Hell yes. Do I have the mentality of a victim? HELL NO. I’m a fighter and a survivor. Being told I have a ‘victim-based’ mentality, simply because I call out racist words and actions when I see them, is UTTER BULLSHIT.
I propose that we discuss ‘victims’ for a while – it seems that ‘whiteness’ can’t be determined or discussed without having the anti-racist whites and apologetic blacks getting all up in arms over it, and screaming “I’m taking my toys and going home – I’m banning myself!!!!!”
@ Herneith:
Here’s my shopping list so far:
1. Case of “Troll-Away”
2. Tano handbag
3. 1 pair of special-edition ‘Cthulhu’ gladiator sandals
4. FSM-designed corset
I keep thinking I’m forgetting something… 😎
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Franklin:
I’m supposing that Tim Wise and his oeuvre are generally well-known to the anti-racist set, but please feel free to suggest an alternative person.
I think regardless of which “authority figures” are used in the experiment, we’ll all see that purportedly white commenters are held to a different standard to purportedly black commenters.
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Short Observation:
Kwamla & King both resemble what Malcolm refers to as “house” negroes. They behave and write as implicit defenders of racism/white-supremacy. I have nothing to prove, especially to those two. I’m not in their BS GAME, and if I were, I wouldn’t subscribe to their (Euro-centric intellectualisms) rules regarding proving this and arguing that, till the cows come home. Each reader can simply decide for him or her own self what they will take in, or reject from whatever comment they choose to read.
Kwamla & King both wish to fight/defend implicitly for whiteness from where I sit. Go for it! Be my guest, or rather Abagond’s. But don’t expect me to to waste my time attempting to prove to either of you (super geniuses?) that one plus one still equals two!
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Abagond:
White folk know exactly what they’re doing, good or bad. Getting mad at you and other black bloggers is a waste of time. Whites are trying to maintain a lie that was created by their white forefathers and mothers. All of the bs that has been shoved down our throats can’t survive over the long haul. They should focus their time and energy on fixing the mess their ancestors created on this planet, instead of arguing with informed black people who can see thru their bs anyway.
Tyrone
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I was watching a show about meerkats that invoked a parallel narrative. A meerkat had been beaten up and pushed down the family hierarchy. One day after its food had been taken from it by another meerkat, it started “causing trouble”. “He’s a meerkat with social problems,” the narrator said. The bullies? No social problems. The bullied? Social problems.
Not accepting hierarchies as they exist means that you have “social problems”.
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I saw an op-ed piece in a local paper today, discussing the ‘Occupiers/99%ers’ movement. A specific, brief paragraph stood out like a sore thumb to me, so I’ve re-written it below, substituting the word ‘wealthy’ with ‘white’ (and marking it in bold) so we can see what’s at work when it comes to these ‘open, frank’ discussions on race:
“…The way to understand all of this is to realize that it’s part of a broader syndrome, in which ‘white’ Americans who benefit hugely from a system rigged in their favor react with hysteria to anyone who points out just how rigged the system is.”
Sums things up quite well, no?
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Well Said Abagond!
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@ Matari:
It’s funny, King and Kwamla have been commenting on this blog for a long time, and it’s pretty clear to any reasonable reader where they stand: pro-black and anti-racist, yet broad-minded enough to know that the answer to problems is sometimes more complicated than “just blame the white man”.
But one argument with you and they are now “house negroes”.
I’m envious that you are so wise and all-seeing that you are fit to hand out these dubious accolades.
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@ Kwamla
There are tons of things that G.L. Piggy, Unamused or Jason have said that I left “unchallenged”. Does that mean I agree with them too? My opinions are extremely well-documented. Cringeworthily so. There is no reason to wonder anything.
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@ Eurasian:
Getting back to a comment you made a few days ago:
Zek, apart from that thread, has been a fair, thoughtful commenter, one of my best – even if he is quick with the insult. I took his opinions seriously even though I did not always agree.
But on that thread he became like another person. Once I would not back off and apologize, he stopped arguing in good faith. He kept misrepresenting my point of view. “White people are demonic” is something HE MADE UP. But he pinned it on me. I thought I was imagining things, but I went back through the thread. I was not. He did the same to Matari and Aspergum.
He is all cool with talking about whether blacks are pathological or criminal or genetically defective or whatever, but once the same sort of thing is asked about whites, it is put beyond the bounds of civil discussion and apologies must be had. One is not allowed to hurt the feelings of white people!
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Tyrone – You are so on point.
Abagond, I feel ya. Love your articles cause all I’m hearing is TRUTH.
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Its funny. White folks make it seem like they are not the sensitive type. But they are. And love to say how sensitve blacks are when racist comments are said to us.
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Well, well, well what did I tell you Abagond, I told you zek was one of them just waiting to come out and hate, you see I was right,AND NOW YOU KNOW,now you know.
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Keepspreadinthetruth:
Once black people know the truth, No one can f*** with our brain. All of the bs in mainstream media doesn’t affect me. I can see it coming from a mile away…Aquarius Vision! Informed black people can’t be exploited, uninformed black people end up being a statistic…Bottomline! Free in mind, body, and soul. Free black people are beautiful in every aspect…Indeed!!!
Tyrone
Elegant Status
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Tyrone, right on, brotha!
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Tyrone said:
“Once black people know the truth, No one can f*** with our brain…Informed black people can’t be exploited, uninformed black people end up being a statistic…Bottomline! Free in mind, body, and soul. Free black people are beautiful in every aspect…Indeed!!!”
Hell, YEAH!!! Co-sign!! 😎
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@ Abagond:
The “white people are demonic” thing wasn’t imagined by Zek, it came from Matari (whether he/she meant it or not). Perhaps he conflated the views of you, Matari and aspergum considering you were all arguing similar points against him.
“He is all cool with talking about whether blacks are pathological or criminal or genetically defective or whatever, but once the same sort of thing is asked about whites, it is put beyond the bounds of civil discussion and apologies must be had. One is not allowed to hurt the feelings of white people!”
Does Zek ever support any of those ideas about blacks? In my observance, he is strongly against such essentialist ideas. And I think there’s a difference between blacks discussing black pathology (on those other posts), and blacks discussing white pathology (on the previous thread).
My take would be that Zek and jas0n are opposed to racism generally; they are usually in agreement with the majority here when the subject is racism against blacks, but when the tone starts coming across as racist towards whites, of course they are going to argue against it.
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Yeah sepultra, great catch. And just like being born white in America, being born wealthy does not mean you have some natural, genetic evil. Nor does it mean you arrive in the world spiritually cursed. But it does mean that from early on you will receive certain messages about who you should be and what should matter to you. Rich people have a skewed view and so do white people. I think Abagond is saying (or at least I am hearing) that he is not writing for people with such a skewed view. Really, most every other piece of media caters to whiteness already.
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^ Randy, I think Danila explains best what most people here have been trying to say.
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King,
Let’s deep dive into this.
In an idealized “anti-racist” setting, presumably everyone has an equal seat at the table, regardless of race or creed.
Danila’s comment implies that whites and blacks are inherently steeped in different values. Even if we accept this view at face value, how does it follow that, rather than all groups being seated at the table with pluralistic equality, some groups are treated differently than others?
Diversity of opinion doesn’t necessarily imply diversity of treatment. Upon what bedrock is the justification for different treatment founded?
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@ Eurasian:
1. Zek’s conflation was not an honest mistake. He stuck to it even after his mistake was repeatedly pointed out.
2. Matari and I were not making an essentialist argument. It is ZEK who turned it into one and then used it as an excuse to dismiss what we were saying.
Matari said that WHITENESS was demonic. Whiteness as in a system of oppression, not as in white genetics or something.
It was Zek who turned that into WHITE PEOPLE are demonic making it into an essentialist argument.
You do not add X to someone’s argument and then condemn it for arguing X. I mean, come on.
3. Sure Zek is against essentialist arguments about black people, but he has NO TROUBLE openly discussing them in a civil manner. Even ASSUMING that Matari and I were making an essentialist argument about whites, which we were not, Zek was still not up for discussing it. Why is that?
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@ Andrew:
An interesting point.
White American commenters are problematic. On the one hand I love how straight-up some of them are, saying stuff they would never say offline in mixed company. Wow. On the other hand many of them are not here to seriously talk about stuff or examine different points of view but instead to IMPOSE the white perspective – just as it is imposed on us in the rest of American culture. White must be right at all costs – even if it takes derailing, lies, name-calling and deliberate obtuseness to do it.
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@ Abagond:
it troubles me that you assume zek is being deliberately dishonest & tricky, rather than mistaken. And no doubt you assume that that intellectual dishonesty is a product of his whiteness, no?
If u want to know why zek & jason have seemingly given up, here’s my take, which represents my general feeling as well. (I can’t quantify this in any way, it is just the feeling i have.) Many of us consider ourselves “anti-racist” based on the assumption that blacks, whites, asians & everybody else, are pretty much the same, which is why we desire the overcoming of racism & the division it causes. But increasingly, this blog feels like its objective is to point out all the ways that white people are NOT the same; that racism is not a part of human nature, rather something that white people do almost exclusively.
The “white = wrong, POC = right” equation might serve some psychological purpose for you and some of your readers, but ultimately it does nothing to fight racism. And insomuch as it makes whites & blacks feel that they perhaps have little common ground to work with, it arguably exacerbates it.
You may disagree. It’s your blog anyway, so you can do as you please.
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@ Eurasian:
1. I started out assuming that Zek had made an honest mistake, which is why I repeatedly tried to correct him, but it was like talking to a wall. It was like he had become a different person.
2. I am not looking for a feel-good anything. It is Zek & Co who want a feel-good something. That was apparent when he made the feelings of white people the cornerstone of his argument. How much more feel-good can you get than that?
3. I never said racism was not part of human nature. I said that the degree to which it is carried to in America – and anywhere else where it leads to genocide – cannot be accounted for simply by human nature, It is more than just “people being people”. There is more than just that going on.
To argue otherwise is to normalize the violent skinhead racism that America was built on. It is to normalize the dehumanization of blacks. Sorry, I am not going for that. And if the kumbayahs suddenly stop, then that is damn frightening. Like the-last-two-minutes-of-Twilight-Zone frightening.
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Its funny. White folks make it seem like they are not the sensitive type. But they are. And love to say how sensitve blacks are when racist comments are said to us.
…
Yes, like those who come here and accuse Blacks of believing that whites are evil, or, as one phrased it, “Whiteyz da debil,”
but who then go on to threaten Blacks with racial annihilation for daring to believe such a bad thing about whites.
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@ Abagond
“I never said racism was not part of human nature. I said that the degree to which it is carried to in America – and anywhere else where it leads to genocide – cannot be accounted for simply by human nature, It is more than just “people being people”. There is more than just that going on.”
Of course there is, “more than just that going on.”
But the “white racial frame” forbids most whites (and some others) from seeing that which we see.
Parfum Bleu wrote:
“but who then go on to threaten Blacks with racial annihilation for daring to believe such a bad thing about whites.”
Annihilate blacks?
Who will the scapegoat be if blacks were no longer in America?
Who would fill their prisons?
Who would they run secret experiments on?
Who would they give predatory loans to?
Who would they give less pay to?
Who would they charge more for cars, boats, etc ..?
Whose neighborhoods would they put their toxins in?
Who would they stop for standing and walking and driving?
Who would they blame their economic woes on?
I could go on …
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@ Matari,
Thank you for pointing out the obvious…White people want us to be their not too aware and happy pets, we serve a purpose for them.
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Yes, MK82. And let’s not also forget that they even diagnosed us as slaves as sufferers of some demented conditioned called, “Drapetomania.” A diseased mental condition that caused us to (want to) flee slavery.
In fact, did a time ever exist when whiteness didn’t want us (and everyone else) to view ourselves in some negative or silly/stupid way in order to “serve a purpose for them?”
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Anchorbaby
And you do know that there is anti-black racism in the Latino community right? Not all Latinos, but some do believe the racial stereotypes that have been assigned to Black people, and there have been cases of acts of violence towards Blacks because of their skin color.
In absolute numbers yes, but not in terms of true economic and political power. White supremacy dictates that only White people have an absolute monopoly over the levers of power. We will be closer to a South African example more than anything else….
Huh? Tell that the Puerto Ricans who have been victims of American economic and political policies since the Spanish American War. Tell that to the Mexican Americans whose families have been in the US, when what is now know as the Western part of the USA, was a part of Mexico.
@Alafas
Maybe so among Americans of Japanese and Korean descent, but definitely not among Americans of South Asian decent (Vietnamese, Cambodians, Samoans, etc.).
@Usagi
So tried of this “hate will eat you alive” and “it doesn’t solve anything argument”….Did hate eat alive the White people pictured in the lynching photo on this blog? NO! Did hating Black people help White people economically, socially, and politically? YES! So please lets stop with the Black people shouldn’t be mad, angry, and for those to choose to feel so, filled with hate…….
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@ Matari & MK82:
Very well-stated. Excellent points!
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Sorry my previous comment was posted on the wrong thread..
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Keep plugging Abagond.
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What kind of world do we live in when the views of the oppressed are expressed at the convenience of the oppressors?
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Abagond, I mostly a purveyor on your blogs. I love discourse as it can give birth to understanding. That being said I cannot wait for your return. PEACE
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Say whattttt!
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Really Abagond? Understanding racism is more important to you than ending it? Does understanding why people do things to you because of the color of your skin help you? I don’t find it does. Whatever white folks reason for treating me poorly because of my race, it amounts to the same thing, I’m discriminated against. Knowing why white people are racist wouldn’t have help me in elementary school when the teachers had low expectations of me and my friends because we were brown, and therefore “just going to end up mowing lawns for a living anyway”.
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@ AJ
Of course I would rather have racism end than have to understand it. I am not mad.
This post was written against those who think I should not say such mean things about white people since it “hurts the cause”. THEY do not have to live in a racist world that directly hurts them. THEY do not HAVE TO understand racism. I do. That is my point.
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Thank you abogond, that clears things up, and it’s very mature of you not to be angry about people’s treatment of you, because God knows I am.
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I meant mad/crazy not mad/angry. Sorry for the confusion.
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@abogond, you are forgiven, lol
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When you open a discussion about race and racism whites will approach the the topic as an individual who didn’t personally own slaves or whose family immigrated in the early 20th century. But they will also cite statistics and media for their perception of blacks or POC in general and justify their prejudices. Buzz words like “White Guilt” and “reverse racism” also gets used. Either way they’ll still feel entitled to their individuality while undermining the the individuality and personal experiences of blacks/POC. I’m reading a study on White Guilt now for Soc and its fascinating.
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@ Abagond
What I find unsettling is the fact that whites think you should consider their feelings above your own. You know, once in a black social studies class my professor asked us to write down one word that best describes Europeans.
I wrote down arrogant.
It is because of that arrogance that they feel that only their feelings, thoughts, ideas, words, conversations and lives matter. When they are jolted back to reality, it’s like a cold splash of water in their faces. They can’t believe it. And unfortunately, cannot deal with it.
I’ve learned that whites are different from us in every way. From the physical to the spiritual. Falsely based on “logic”, their self-awareness and spiritual growth is stunted. Lacking human empathy for anyone that is unlike them, they measure your worth in life through success and your ability to imitate them for they are the gold standard.
Phoniness is their way of life. It hides the sad fact that they are incapable of deep reflection. So denial becomes their own way of coping with that sense of emptiness. Abagond, there is nothing you or I can do for them. It’s too late.
They know this too. That’s why they are so deeply enraged. That’s why they come here and fight you tooth and nail. That’s why they post the most disgusting things on my blog and fear the rise of black power.
It’s kinda funny, you know? They created their own “Frankenstein’s Monster” and now it’s eating them alive. I have no empathy for them. None.
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You all use the European Trader argument. The fact that Europeans had West-African slaves(slaves? where did that word come from?) does not mean that Arabs, and to a lesser extent, Jews, shouldn’t be forced to pay reparations to Africa.
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@oogenhand:
You’re right! I’ll take cash, stocks or real estate form anyone. Race does not play a part in this unless you consider green to be a race. To donate oogen hand email me with cash in hand or from your bank to: blowitoutyourhole.com. Please, anything under a hundred bucks don’t bother!
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[…] Your talk about race is divisive. You need to kiss up to whites. […]
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