Chuck, you wrote this comment on my blog:
fine, address my points about black criminalilty. how do whites deal with those facts? should we ignore them and ignore our tendency to stereotype other people and just hope for the best? at what point does the stereotyped group have a duty to change the facts that create those stereotypes?
Is the black crime rate higher? Yes.
Do the white stereotypes about black crime keep whites safer? No.
Three important things to understand:
- Most crime is same-race: white-on-white and black-on-black.
- Most black people are no more dangerous than most white people.
- The crime rate is lower in white neighbourhoods because they receive much better police protection than black ones. It has little to do with white people being more moral or black people having some kind of criminal nature. They both have the same human nature.
Stories of black-on-white crime spread faster and farther – from person to person and through the news – because they seem more terrible. Not because they they are more common. Hardly.
The higher black crime rate does not make life more dangerous for whites. That is because most of it is black-on-black. While there certainly are blacks who harm whites, overall the biggest threat to white people are other white people!
For example, according to FBI numbers for 2008, a white person is six times more likely to be murdered by another white person than by a black person.
The belief that blacks commit most of the crime makes whites feel safer: they can avoid most crime by moving away from blacks. Except that it is not true: whites commit most of the crime – something that is lost sight of in all this talk about the black crime rate. So the sense of security is a false one.
Further, the stereotypes make crime into a race issue, which means crime is not fought intelligently. Instead we get stuff like racial profiling and making it hard for those with a felony conviction to make an honest living. Which makes American society more dangerous and more crime-ridden than it has to be, more dangerous than other rich Western countries – despite all the prisons it has built and all the black men it has locked up.
You said:
at what point does the stereotyped group have a duty to change the facts that create those stereotypes?
There is little blacks can do when white people stereotype them based on the behaviour of, say, 0.0156% of them, which is what statements like this do:
Blacks are 6.6 times more likely to be the victims of murder and about 7.6 times more likely to be the perpetrators.
I looked that up. According to the FBI numbers for 2008 the percentage of blacks who committed murder was 6.7 times higher than the percentage of whites – yet the percentages in question are 0.0156% compared to 0.0023%! That level of stereotyping is delusional: at that level you can make up almost any stereotype you want.
See also:
Interesting. I didn’t think the “6.7 times more likely to commit crime” statement was true, but now that I see the actual percentages…
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Man Abagond.
Chuck doesn’t deserve an entire post dedicated to him. People across the blogosphere have been telling HBDers like him the same thing for months, but they refuse to hear it.
Just my opinion.
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I find it absurd that white people are so scared of other races even while being molested, murdered, and betrayed primarily by their own people.
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Is the black crime rate higher? Yes.
Do the white stereotypes about black crime keep whites safer? No.
False. Higher black criminality is one thing that causes residential and social segregation by race. Whites are safer when then keep away from blacks. Most crime is same-race due to this segregation; if the races were more integrated, whites would be victimized by black perpetrators more often (and vice versa).
Most crime is same-race: white-on-white and black-on-black.
Most black people are no more dangerous than most white people.
The crime rate is lower in white neighbourhoods because they receive much better police protection than black ones. It has little to do with white people being more moral or black people having some kind of criminal nature. They both have the same human nature.
That’s absolute nonsense. The police are much more active in black neighborhoods than white ones. For example:
THERE was a predictable chorus of criticism from civil rights groups last month when the New York Police Department released its data on stop-and-frisk interactions for 2009. The department made 575,000 pedestrian stops last year. Fifty-five percent involved blacks, even though blacks are only 23 percent of the city’s population. Whites, by contrast, were involved in 10 percent of all stops, though they make up 35 percent of the city’s population.
That’s from this article by Heather Mac Donald. As she goes on to explain, the number of black and Hispanic victims and perpetrators would be much higher without this disproportionate police presence:
Allegations of racial bias, however, ignore the most important factor governing the Police Department’s operations: crime. Trends in criminal acts, not census data, drive everything that the department does, thanks to the statistics-based managerial revolution known as CompStat. Given the patterns of crime in New York, it is inevitable that stop rates will not mirror the city’s ethnic and racial breakdown.
CompStat embodies the iconoclastic idea that the police can stop violence before it happens. The department analyzes victim reports daily, and deploys additional manpower to the places where crime is increasing. Once at a crime hot spot, officers are expected to look out for, and respond to, suspicious behavior.
Such stops happen more frequently in minority neighborhoods because that is where the vast majority of violent crime occurs — and thus where police presence is most intense. Based on reports filed by victims, blacks committed 66 percent of all violent crime in New York in 2009, including 80 percent of shootings and 71 percent of robberies. Blacks and Hispanics together accounted for 98 percent of reported gun assaults. And the vast majority of the victims of violent crime were also members of minority groups.
Non-Hispanic whites, on the other hand, committed 5 percent of the city’s violent crimes in 2009, 1.4 percent of all shootings and less than 5 percent of all robberies.
More policing and more prisons are to a large extent responsible for the fall in crime in America in the last two decades.
From Abagond again:
I looked that up. According to the FBI numbers for 2008 the percentage of blacks who committed murder was 6.7 times higher than the percentage of whites – yet the percentages in question are 0.0156% compared to 0.0023%! That level of stereotyping is delusional: at that level you can make up almost any stereotype you want.
Homicides are a tiny fraction of all crimes. This article reports that “In 2001 a sixth of African-American men were current or former prisoners, compared with one in 13 Latinos and one in 38 whites”, and the black rate is apparently going up. It makes a big difference to your probability of becoming a crime victim if you live around white men (2.6% chance of going to prison) versus black men (16.7% or higher chance)
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I thought this was going to be about that show Chuck. Very interesting post, and what you said as #3 of important things to understand is something I’ve been thinking for a while. Where I live, it takes about 30 minutes to an hour for police to respond to an emergency call. Firefighters and ambulances arrive long before police do.
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This is something I’ve researched a lot. Best evidence is that there are real differences in the rates of commission of some kinds of crimes, although much of the difference can be accounted for by education/poverty rather than race per se. And as Abagond says, most crime is within-race not between-race. However, a lot of what is fueling police contact is the drug war, and the picture is different there. All the available evidence says that whites under 26 use illegal drugs of all types at higher rates than blacks do, but the rates of arrest even for simple possession are much higher for blacks than whites. Data about drug dealing is more complicated and contested, but all professionals agree that there are a lot of white drug dealers and, even if there is a disproportion in actual drug dealing, it is nowhere near the disproportion in arrests for drug dealing, not to mention the huge disparity in traffic stops and street stops of people just to see if they’ve done anything.
Murder gets a lot of attention, but murder is a rare crime. If you are concerned about explaining mass incarceration you have to pay attention to the drug war and property crimes and the way people get swept into the system for relatively minor offenses like disorderly conduct as part of a repressive system of street policing.
In short, people who care cannot be dismissive of the problem of crime in Black neighborhoods — it is a real issue. But prejudice and discrimination and White fear of ordinary Black people create the lack of opportunity that feed into crime problems.
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Most crime is same-race: white-on-white and black-on-black.
This is important to remember. I know some people are surprised to hear it, but that’s how it goes.
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@Pamela Oliver: .”All the available evidence says that whites under 26 use illegal drugs of all types at higher rates than blacks do, but the rates of arrest even for simple possession are much higher for blacks than whites. Data about drug dealing is more complicated and contested, but all professionals agree that there are a lot of white drug dealers and, even if there is a disproportion in actual drug dealing, it is nowhere near the disproportion in arrests for drug dealing, not to mention the huge disparity in traffic stops and street stops of people just to see if they’ve done anything….”
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Exactly. It would appear that there is less of as societal focus on the yt American as criminal ,and more on the blk American as criminal.
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Why Are So Many Black Men in Prison? A Comprehensive Account of How and Why the Prison Industry Has Become a Predatory Entity in the Lives of African-American Men by Demico Boothe
Criminalizing A Race: Free Blacks During Slavery [Paperback] Charshee C. L. McIntyre (Author)
ARE Blacks A Criminal Race? Surprising Statistics
Van Jones: “The better question for public debate is this: do the actual government statistics bear out the claim that Blacks contribute disproportionately to the crime rate? Or is this largely a stereotype, which is driven by the disproportionate rate of ARRESTS and CONVICTIONS of Black people? And does the over-focus on Black crime conceal an alarmingly high crime rate within the white population?
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I like your stats, Abagond. I feel like stats are a great way to lay stuff out for people who are trying to get it (and those who just won’t get it). Because people pay attention to stats — they think they’re objective or something.
And I totally think Chuck deserves his own post. Because this post isn’t just about Chuck. It’s about the millions of people who say the same thing as Chuck.
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See, I am still not sure that blacks commit more crimes than whites (even if it’s only amongst themselves). If you say crime is more proliferative amongst black communities because they’re often poor, then this is only an explanation regarding theft, robbery, murder, drug abuse, maybe rape.
What about crimes you need a certain amount of know-how for, something those poor black communities are excluded from? How high is the percentage of black fraudsters? White people can move around with cars far easier than black ones, I will bet dollars for nuts that there are more white car thieves than black ones. And so on. I think if you step away from only looking at the “classical” crimes that are abundant in impoverished portions of a society and look at any crime whatsoever (maybe excluding minor offenses like speeding and such), then you will see that blacks and whites in the US commit the same amount of crimes.
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I read a study somewhere that stated black-white crime rates are virtually the same when controlled for fatherlessness/illegitimacy.
I’ll find the link if I can.
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Abagond:
Jack made solid points in rebuttal. I’d mainly ditto his remarks about white self-segregation keeping the black-on-white (BOW) crime rate down.
You miss one key aspect of all of this. It is something I brought up in other comments about my own personal experiences with black criminality. I made a laundry list of run-ins I’ve had with black people. Me being jumped, my brother being jumped, the only murder in my home town being my white friend’s dad who was shot in the face with a shotgun by a group of blacks, me witnessing two seperate incidents where black people threatened to murder white people in broad daylight, a friend of mine having his home invaded by blacks….and as of yesterday my girlfriend who works in retail was shoved in the chest by a black man who she had just caught stealing in her store.
So its not the media that keeps white people frightened; its our run-ins with black people that keep us frightened. Yes, the statistics would show that blacks don’t murder all that often, but when I have first hand knowledge of a white person being murdered by black people, that carries a little more weight. Pile on all of these other negative experiences with blacks, and it doesn’t take long for a person’s attitude towards them, as it pertains to criminality, to change. Most of the incidents I listed above were eye-opening to me. It doesn’t really take the media to “brainwash” me, as you say, my own experiences are doing that for me.
And to reiterate what Jack said: the BOW crime rates are so low only because white people try really hard not to live near large groups of black people. We make a point of it out of self-preservation or because we don’t want to live in fear (maybe irrational, but less irrational than if we lived in an all white enclave) of criminality.
And before you maintain repeating the “whites commit more crimes against whites than blacks do”, let me state my point like this. If you have a group of white people, there will be a certain average level of criminality among them. But if you replace one white person with one black person, playing the probabilities, the average crime level will increase. That is why it doesn’t matter that whites still commit more crimes against whites than blacks. We are looking at opportunity costs here.
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Well, this comes closer to my interest. As some one who has studied and investigated organized crime for some 20 odd years by now, I can say this: the real big organized crime is almost always white. Chinese triads and japanese yakuza are the two exceptions.
We can always debate are the latin american drug cartels and criminal organizations white or not, but they themselves do not identify with blacks. On the contrary; La Eme for example is almost openly racist organization. Cuban cocaine cowboys and columbians have had black members in their ranks but as organisations these groups do not consider themselves as namely black criminal groups.
Russian mafiya gangs and the powerful vory v zakone brotherhood are almost exclusively white, though some uzbeks and other ethnic minorities are presented among their ranks. Mafiya gangs are usually more tightly white russian than vorky v zakone. Vory system is the oldest form of russian organized crime and dates from the days of imperial Russia.
Italian organized crime is exclusive: napolitan camorra, sicilian cosa nostra mafia, calbrian ndragheta and puglian sacra corona unita are all true blue italian organisations. Same goes with the US cosa nostra.
European organized crime in general is white and forms a underworld web that beats street gangs easily in power, prestige and money. Turkish babas and organizations are exclusive. Balkan crime groups are also exclusive, the albanian organisations are very often based on family and kinship.
In France there are strong algerian immigrant gangs and organisations but the upper echelon of french organizations are usually white. Very few black criminals have risen to the top there or in Britain despite numerous black criminals in those countries.
Indian criminal networks and crime groups are also exclusive, meaning they do not accept blacks among the rank and file, not to mention in the leadership positions.
The only global black organized crime which has impact on greater scale is nigerian organized crime. However, it is debatable is it highly organized or loosely connected phenomena. It has never the less its place on the global crime scene.
Now how this effects on chuck or any other white american and their safety?
These real organized crime groups are responsible for the flow of drugs into USA. They are also players in the financial fraud scene. They smuggle weapons and supply the street criminals with weapons and drugs. And of course, they are the ones who operate together with corrupt officials and politicians. This has been documented for decades by now.
And one has to understand the economics of this real big crime: there are no funds in the black ghetto areas which could pay up the tons of drugs they import annually into USA. It is the huge white middle and upper classes that consume casually the majority of the narcotics. They have the capital for it. That is the economical fact. This is good to remember. The same goes for Europe too.
Then, there are the Wall street jugglers who are also organized criminals and who are the main reason why the average white americans are in the deep shit, loose their homes, insurances etc. They affect to the security of the white middle class many many times more than any black street mugger or dope smoking gangabanger.
This is my take on this subject. Not that I say that street crime is less harmful or anything. It has to be taken seriously too, but one has to remember the causes of it. Also one has to remember that black street gangs can not operate openly in the suburbia where as the white organized criminals live there in peace.
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Chuck,
You are one of those people who have murder in the family. Crime is like a genetic disease and some people seem to have more than others.
The perpetrator’s race or other identity is of little importance. Sometime I wonder if is a certain innate unawareness or a propensity to trust is this why it occurs; perhaps a certain naivete.
I was dismayed by the reaction of a lone white female jogger who confronted car thieves at 5:30 in the morning and wound up murdered by them. This was someone from flyover country who had moved to the big city. The car thieves were white and after several years they were found and convicted of murder.
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Oh, Abagond…you really needed to dedicate a whole post to a person with a concrete mind-set? It’s on the same level as going back in time and attempting to tell Hitler that Jews aren’t evil and sub-human – an exercise in futility.
I think I’ll do a post, based on my life experiences with white people, about the type of scum they are. Stay tuned…
: )
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sepultra,
black people throughout American history have recounted their tales of bad white people. i have no problem with those recollections since they were true and they spoke to a tangible problem faced by black people. but as it stands today, it is white people who have more to fear from the people who are opposite them in color.
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What about crimes you need a certain amount of know-how for, something those poor black communities are excluded from? How high is the percentage of black fraudsters?
Blacks are overrepresented in white-collar crime, too, accounting for more than a third of those arrested for fraud or embezzlement: http://www.albany.edu/sourcebook/pdf/t4102008.pdf
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I would like to add another point.
Black people are viewed as a collective [racial] individual, while white people are viewed as individuals.
What does this mean?
1. When a white person commits a crime it’s not a white crime but a crime.
2. When a black person commits a crime, it’s a black crime.
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@ Sepultura, Y, Ankhesen, etc:
The beauty of Chuck is that he says what many people think but he can say it in one paragraph instead of in bits and pieces across 12 different comments. Also, I was trying to answer a comment of his on “Three Bears” but ran out of time so I promised this post instead.
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Murder rates: I picked on it because:
1. It is what Chuck used for his crime statistics.
2. It is the least likely to be underreported so it is the most trustworthy.
3. No one can accuse me of cherry picking because the murder rate among blacks makes them look pretty bad.
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abagond,
I remember when chuck made his first appearance over at roissys blog. When the guys would post race stuff his answer was all people are alike, all people commit crime. Then the guys started posting their “blks are bad”stats etc… and they slowly but shorely got to him.
chuck has even said that his grandfather is blk.
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good point mel.
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Jack:
Racial profiling of blacks and Latinos shows that the police is “protecting” them? Wow.
In many poor black neighbourhoods the police have lost the trust and respect of ordinary people. Because of things like police brutality, racial profiling and not seriously fighting crime. CompStat makes the last one worse, not better.
In New York CompStat was great the first few years, back in the 1990s, when there were easy gains to make. But now it makes things worse. With CompStat the way to get ahead in policing is to stop people for little things, to show you are busy, while not dealing seriously with serious crime because that would increases the recorded crime rate of your precinct and make you look bad.
More of what sort of things CompStat leads to here:
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@ chic noir: Oh dear.
@ mel: I agree with chic noir – excellent point.
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Jack said:
“More policing and more prisons are to a large extent responsible for the fall in crime in America in the last two decades.”
Wrong. The fall was predicted in the late 1980s for demographic reasons. I remember that. Then I remember Mayor Giuliani in New York taking credit for it – even though the fall began under Dinkins.
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Jack said:
“Blacks are overrepresented in white-collar crime, too, accounting for more than a third of those arrested for fraud or embezzlement…”
That is the mantra, isn’t it? Not “whites commit most crimes” but “Blacks are overrepresented”. Which in time becomes misremembered as “blacks commit most crimes”. Nice.
From your statements, neither you nor Chuck are interested in the safety of white people. You just want to excuse your own racist ideas about black people and will bend and twist facts as needed.
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Jack said:
“It makes a big difference to your probability of becoming a crime victim if you live around white men (2.6% chance of going to prison) versus black men (16.7% or higher chance)”
And Chuck said:
“If you have a group of white people, there will be a certain average level of criminality among them. But if you replace one white person with one black person, playing the probabilities, the average crime level will increase. That is why it doesn’t matter that whites still commit more crimes against whites than blacks. We are looking at opportunity costs here.”
So like black people are just these ticking statistical time bombs waiting to go off, hurting anyone who is nearby?
Black people are not a race of savages or madmen or statistical points on a chart. They do not have some dark, strange psychology, such as a “criminal nature”. They have the same human nature as white people and will do bad things for pretty much the same reasons. The reason they are more likely to commit crime is not because they have a hard time controlling their savage hearts – but because most of them live in places where the police do not give a shit. So long, that is, they are only hurting black people.
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Another comment on what Jack said here:
“It makes a big difference to your probability of becoming a crime victim if you live around white men (2.6% chance of going to prison) versus black men (16.7% or higher chance)”
That would be a meaningful statement if the police and the courts were not racist. But they are.
For example, black youths arrested for drug possession are 48 times more likely to wind up in prison than white youths arrested for the same crime under the same circumstances.
Source: “Young White Offenders get lighter treatment,” 2000. The Tennessean. April 26: 8A.
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Racial profiling of blacks and Latinos shows that the police is “protecting” them? Wow.
Blacks and Latinos are stopped by the police more often because they are more prone to crime. Above, you bizarrely argued that the “crime rate is lower in white neighbourhoods because they receive much better police protection than black ones”. As police presence in white neighborhood is rare compared to black or Latino ones, what do you actually mean? Do police officers, say, cause black people to kill more of each other just by being there, or what? Note that blacks and Latinos are also more likely to call in the police.
In fact, blacks are understopped compared to whites when the difference in crime rates is controlled for: http://www.city-journal.org/assets/images/eon0514hm.jpg
Wrong. The fall was predicted in the late 1980s for demographic reasons. I remember that. Then I remember Mayor Giuliani in New York taking credit for it – even though the fall began under Dinkins.
The drop in crime was too great to be (solely) due to any demographic shift. If you want to argue this, please come up with something better than vague memories from the 1980s.
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That would be a meaningful statement if the police and the courts were not racist. But they are.
Whether the criminal justice system is biased against blacks or not can easily be investigated by comparing their arrest and imprisonment numbers to the results of victimization surveys. The fact is that for most categories of crime, black perpetrators are less likely to be arrested than would be expected from the percentage of criminals that victimization surveys identify as black. Nor are there significant differences in sentencing between different races for the same crimes when criminal history is controlled for.
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I liked what Sam wrote.
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These real organized crime groups are responsible for the flow of drugs into USA. They are also players in the financial fraud scene.
Exactly. The street dealers are nothing but bullet fodder and are expendable. The real dangers are the distributors. The Yakuza are renowned for stock market frauds for example:
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article4621950.ece
You should be looking to these ‘criminals’ who may impact your economy adversely. Who do you think these street thugs are working for? Funny how they rarely get the big fish when ferreting out these crooks. They go for the easy marks instead. These are the people that resources should be put into apprehending, not some clown on the street corner peddling drugs to suburbanites and other drug users. These street drug peddlers are only the symptom. If they had jobs and opportunities available to them from the get go, many would not even think if this type of lifestyle. They would be using their cunning for something productive. Most crimes are those of opportunity. People aren’t born saying “I think I’ll become either a crack head or drug dealer”. Society has caused this. All you ‘casual’ drug users should think on this the next time you smoke a spliff as you are part and parcel of these problems. It’s the old law of supply and demand.
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Check and mate. *nods to Abagond*
And I liked what Sam said too. He tends to have that effect on Moi.
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[…] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Lord Henry Wotton, Ankhesen Mié. Ankhesen Mié said: *Abagond wins* http://fb.me/LVjBdVYh […]
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I wish someone would come along and claim to be colorblind. Please someone come along now and say we’re post-racial while we are still relying on tallying crime statistics by race like we can detect who’s about to commit a crime based on skin. Where are all those people who swear they don’t see race on this one?
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To Abagond:
From your statements, neither you nor Chuck are interested in the safety of white people.
I can’t speak for Chuck or Jack but I am concerned for the safety of myself, my friends, and my family, many of whom are White but certainly not all. The last victim of Black crime, James Shelton, that I know about is Black… another friend that was assaulted a year before James is Asian Indian…. the assailant was also Black. I did a count of Black assailants who attacked friends, family, or acquaintances in the past decade. 12. More than one a year. Two incidents required stays in the hospital, 5 incidents required a visit to the hospital (stitches etc…) Have I been assaulted by Whites… yes but not for a while and it was not that serious (but annoying…) I went to the see the Dickies in 1994 and was pushed by a big White guy who was drunk. My girlfriend was shoved by a drunken woman. (who I think was jealous of my girlfriend’s appearance…) The key denominator here is bars, alcohol, and younger Whites which I now tend to avoid because some Whites in SF can’t seem to behave when they are drunk. Point being is that I avoiding certain Whites.
Although Jack and Chuck are quite likely racists.. their information is not really incorrect. (more so Jack..) The possibility of a White person getting murdered by a Black person is pretty low but the possibility of getting assaulted by a Black person (for someone of any race…) in some neighborhoods is quite high.
White people (at least the rational ones..) don’t sit around and think if they avoid Blacks they’ll be safe. Nonsense… I”ve had White people lock their doors when they pulled up to red lights and saw me walking on the sidewalk. (I didn’t own a car for many years and had problems with insomnia so I was often out late…) Believe me, I have treated with suspicion by White people many times. It’s a filtering mechanism of avoidance…and definitely White will do it to other White people. Ask an upper class White person if they would feel safe living in a trailer park in West Virginia, do you really think they would say yes..? (In reality the murder rate is pretty low in West Virginia but the assault rate (much more so if you go to a bar..) is fairly high. Avoid boozed up hillbillies.
The number you came up (6.7 times higher) with from the FBI is skewed lower because in general Hispanics are counted as Whites in murder statistics, backing out Hispanics moves the figures closer to 10 times higher. But..as I said the bigger issue is not so much the possibility of getting murdered but getting robbed, threated, or assaulted which is much more common. Yes I know quite well that the majority of Black people don’t do this but my experience in Black neighborhoods in Richmond, Oakland, and San Francisco is that the possibility of a least getting hassled is pretty damn high.
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To Sam:
And one has to understand the economics of this real big crime: there are no funds in the black ghetto areas which could pay up the tons of drugs they import annually into USA. It is the huge white middle and upper classes that consume casually the majority of the narcotics.
First of all there are definitely funds in the Black community.. isolated the per capita GDP in Black community in the US matches Sweden and Australia. But this not mean I believe Black people are directing international transportation of drugs into the US, just pointing out that not all Black people are impoverished. Transportation of Cocaine and Meth into the US is now a heavily a Latino affair. (And generally they often do not define themselves as White albeit there are phenotypically White Latinos and yes, especially with the Mexicans they would tend to exclude Blacks..)
Second the majority of street purchasers of crack cocaine (at least from what I have observed and read..) in these communities are heavily (but not exclusively) Black. Most assuredly there are White consumers of powder cocaine but those purchases typically are not in a “ghetto” and predominantly not on the street. Crystal Meth is predominantly a White and to a lesser extent Latino drug but I have encountered Black and Asian Meth abusers.
Meth distribution (and manufacture) in the US used to be controlled by biker gangs (predominantly White..) but has been basically taken over by Latinos importing Meth manufactured in Mexico. There is extensive distribution of Cocaine (power) among White, Latino, and even Asian communities..) There was definite heavy involvement by Black gangs in the crack distribution within the US for a while.
http://www.justice.gov/dea/pubs/state_factsheets.html
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To Sam:
I can say this: the real big organized crime is almost always white. Chinese triads and japanese yakuza are the two exceptions.
I guess I would have to ask what do you mean by organized crime? (you seem to mean international organized crime…) If you are saying international organized crime transacted predominantly in Europe and North America…( exclusive of the Latino drug trade..which is huge…) then I would that it is heavily White. If you are taking about within Asia..then I would say no way.
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@ jack: well, one guy, Bernie Madoff just got caught stealing 50 000 000 000 dollars. That is 50 billion dollars! Just one white guy. And, as we now know it (financial crisis was partly caused by these guys), there were dozens more in the billions club in Wall street. Now, I would like you to show me a single black american embezzler who has stolen by fraud lets say at least 100 million dollars. As you know, there are dozens of white such criminals.
It is also good to remember that one Bernie Madoff can actually put whole towns out of business, with all its jobs and houses and population, black or white. And they have done so. As such, I think these guys are truly more dangerous to the public than street corner hustlers, whose activities I don’t accept either.
@uncle: true. Asian organized crime is not white nor it is black. Latin american drug cartels and syndicates are definetely taking over large parts of drug business as they have ready made distribution networks in latin street gangs. But still, they do not see themselves as black.
About the economics. Legendary DEA agent Mike Levine tells in his biography how they were allowed to test this theory in practice in New York late 80’s. They set up on the location but did not bust the dealers. Instead they busted the buyers whom more than 80% where white middle class people from the suburbs. In less than a month the word got out and the trade collapsed so low, that the dealers moved to another location. And this was during the height of the first crack wave.
Levine proposed a theory where there was X tons of cocaine brought to the New York metropolitan area annually. Since the product costs X amount of dollars to buy one can calculate how much this annual cocaine would cost. After that it can be calculated how much money there are in the Harlem economic zone, in black Bronx etc. The fact was at least at that time, these areas did not simply have the capital to consume the amount of cocaine that was brought in. They did their share and then some, but the majority of cocaine went somewhere else simply because these poorer areas did not have enough money to buy it all.
This does not mean that there is no black middle class or rich blacks. It just means that out of the tons of drugs consumed in US today, majority is consumed somewhere else than in the ghettoes. And yet, typical drug crime profile in the news and in peoples minds is that of a black drug dealer in a slum.
Recently, thanks to the meth epidemic, this has been changing because more and more meth heads are busted in the white suburbs and wealhty areas outside the poor community.
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About the economics of crime:
One small camorra clan was controlling the whole blue jean business in the state of Florida (according to Roberto Saviano) in the 90’s and this came out only by accident. Now this was legal business controlled by factual and actual napolitan criminals and was worth of some 2 billion dollars annually. So their impact is felt in legal business as well.
The guy who founded Italys prime ministers former party Forza Italia and was his closest buddy for decades was recently imprisoned because he had close contacts with the mafiosi. One guy working for prime minister was actually a member of the mafia. One assistant justice minister was an old ally of a one camorra clan from Naples. This is how big business it is over there.
In California it is estimated that in weed alone the illegal business could be something like a 14 billion dollars a year business and mexican organized crime controls large chunk of this illegal trade. Some believe that the drug wars raging in Mexico now are the heavily influenced by this business and competition between cartels is the reason for those thousands of deaths.
In Cananda in Brittish Columbia BC bud is the main source of income in many communities which are involved in the trade. It is estimated that in BC this trade is worth of some 2 billion dollars annually. It is totally controlled by white criminals out of major portion are not typical gangsters. Bikers have a big stake on it but they are not the only players around. In fact, there has been cases where a whole rural communities has been involved in growing and selling the BC bud and thus supporting themselves this way while pretending to be loggers etc.
Many of the so called russian oligarkhs, bilionaires, were once criminals or did business with the mafiya. Many of the vory have good connections to the establishment over there, they have friends in Duma and other high places. In Ukraine Leonid Kuzma, the former president of that country, was actually in cahoots with the ukranian crime organizations and ran the country pretty much the same manner as a gangster would.
Tiny Estonia was one of the biggest exporters of copper and other metals in the 90’s, even though it has no mines nor any other resources of that kind.
There are examples everywhere how the real big crime functions. Even here in Finland our former prime minister was negotiating with white collar criminals who gets funds for political campaings and how much from these guys. In his official residence. The corruption investigations are still going on.
Street crime is bad and it should be dealt with, but at the same time one has to remember the really big players out there. They are the real movers behind the scenes and they have the power to influence on politics etc.
One book I highly recommend is Douglas Valentines The Strenght of the Wolf – The Secret History of America’s War on Drugs. Once you’ve read that book, you’ll never look at the drug problem the same way nor the tuff talk about war on drugs.
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To Sam:
Latin american drug cartels and syndicates are definetely taking over large parts of drug business as they have ready made distribution networks in latin street gangs. But still, they do not see themselves as black.
No they don’t… especially not Mexicans/Mexican Americans.. but often they don’t see themselves as White either… (I was responding to you assertion that the large majority of Organized crime is White….I would agree that international organized crime is not a Black American affair…)
About the economics. Legendary DEA agent Mike Levine …
Mike Levine wrote a letter to the NY Daily news when a radio host Howard Stern joked about using drugs at a backstage party.. (rather questionable legally in the US.. since this would only be hearsay..) I take what he says with a grain of salt.. and trust the US National Health surveys (posted below..) quite a bit more.. but.. he was taking a snapshot in time which may have been accurate for the location and time frame.
tells in his biography how they were allowed to test this theory in practice in New York late 80′s. They set up on the location but did not bust the dealers. Instead they busted the buyers whom more than 80% where white middle class people from the suburbs.
I am not surprised that at early stages (you did say the first wave of the crack epidemic…) that you could have that sort of situation… especially before crack got a really bad rep. But…you are taking a snapshot in time at one location. From other sources I have read.. the majority of crack purchasers in Black neighborhoods (especially at the street level ..) are Black. Let’s take a look at the consumption of crack by race and ethnicity:
A recent chart on drug use (crack and powdered cocaine..) among various ethnicities in the US:
http://oas.samhsa.gov/2k5/cocaine/cocaine.htm
It shows powdered cocaine usage among Whites and Blacks to be almost the same but crack use among Blacks is 3 times higher than Whites.
From this we can see that yes.. Whites make up the majority of powdered cocaine purchases. (because there are more Whites than Blacks..) The nature of powdered cocaine trade (generally) is such that most of this takes place behind doors and out of sight. Given that I have seen few White purchasers of crack in neighborhoods where I property… (notice I said few.. not none.. I do write down their license plates… just because you’re White and coming in to my neighborhood to F* it up does not give you a pass..) The majority number of purchasers (about 85%) I have observed at least at the street level are Black. This anecdote certainly may have it flaws as much as Mr. Levine’s anecdote from more than 20 years ago.. but both observations could reflect the situations are the given moment.
After that it can be calculated how much money there are in the Harlem economic zone, in black Bronx etc.
Often heavy drug users of Crack or Meth… aren’t going to be able to hold down regular jobs. They’ll steal, rob, or engage in the sex trade for it. You’ll get your suburban White kids buying Meth from money they have finagled out of Mom and Dad… but they hardcore types will very likely be doing something illegal for it.
Now let’s take a look at Meth usage by race:
http://www.oas.samhsa.gov/2k5/meth/meth.htm
As I thought Meth us is minimal for Blacks.. Whites are 7 times more likely (although this is lower than cocaine use ..) , Hispanics 5 times more likely, and even Asians are twice as likely to use Meth than Blacks.
Tragically Meth use is quite high among Native Americans.
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Sam:
International organized crime versus street level crime:
My attitude is both are bad… but the former is more nebulous, but potentially more life and/or nation changing… but at the same time harder to identify (except in retrospect …. Bernie Madoff was running his scam for years….) and hence… subsequently to avoid.
Being victimized by street level crime is more tangible, immediate, and visceral, especially when there is violence involved… my feeling is that the emotions of the human animal are such that street level crime leaves a more indelible impression.
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Sam:
“As I thought Meth us is minimal for Blacks.”
Should read
“As I thought Meth use is minimal for Blacks.”
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chic:
Yes, I used to be much more liberal on the race issue. Now I’m a little more fed up with what I see as a stark pattern of black criminality and black oppositional culture than I was then. Some of the science has convinced me as well that there may be innate differences. But those differences aside, my main sticking point is that only black people can do for themselves. Racism probably can’t be eradicated in toto, so there’s not much point in focusing on it as the cause of all that ails blacks. It becomes a crutch. I buy into the Shelby Steele argument that all too many black people hold onto their victimology because it is much easier to be someone who didn’t try and thus didn’t succeed than to be someone who tried and ended up failing. Plenty of whites do this too – I have many in my own family. But it seems to hinder more blacks than it does whites.
As for the statistics, I knew of them, but I ignored them partly because I have a black adopted grandfather and also because I was brought up to hold black people in very high esteem by my mother. Part of my “anger” – if you want to call it that – is that I feel I was lied to. I was made to feel sorry for blacks and their plight, but I realized that too many blacks sought to leverage that guilt for their own personal gain.
But I’m curious what my grandfather’s race (he adopted my father and I’m named after him) has to do with anything? His being black has nothing to do with my feelings on the general behaviors and criminality of black people. He was a humble, quiet, great man, but I can’t not look at this objectively. Also, you’d probably be interested to hear some of my grandfather’s thoughts about an all too prevalent strain of black people.
I bring it up a lot, and I apologize to beat a dead horse, but I’m redheaded. Even so, I don’t deny the objective truth by pretending that redheads are as naturally physically attractive as people with other hair colors. People have told me that they think most redheads are weird looking, and I have to agree with them on that score (luckily I’m considered an attractive redhead by most…which I respond to by saying that this is similar to being considered the smartest of the retards).
As such, I can very easily still have a black grandfather who I highly respected while also being a race realist. It’s called objectivity. To me, he was just an outlier. His grandson, my cousin (who is 3/4 black with a medium complexion and prefers to hang around black people), is a fucking idiot who has never faced any external racism in his life but blames racism for his woes rather than blaming it on his penchant for weed, Olde English 40s, and video games.
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Uncle Milton et al:
Meth was introduced into poor white communities by the CIA in order to criminalize them and destroy rural communities.
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To Chuck:
Uncle Milton et al:
Meth was introduced into poor white communities by the CIA in order to criminalize them and destroy rural communities.
Presumably that’s a play on the accusations of the CIA introducing crack to urban communities. Since Whites are 3.5 more likely to use powder cocaine than Meth, well.. what can I say.. damn useless government workers..
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@uncle: yes, crack epidemic is mainly black, true. No doubt. I think Levine was talkin about both powder and crack in his book. And of course it is his view on the thing.
As for the street crime vs. big organized crime:
true, street crime resonates more in average population just because it seems to be the cause of the troubles and it is easier to understand and comprehend. To think that some old guy in one mule town in Calabria is controlling the coke business in ones home town is not so clear even if it was true. Just recently competing nrangheta clans shot six guys dead in sleepy german town. For the locas these were just pizzeria guys when in reality they were members of one clan from a small calabrian town. Bit of a wake up call in that town, I guess.
And when one thinks major US street gangs like Crips, Bloods, Latin Kings etc. they have thousands of members which is no laughing matter at all. From those gangs the future big time gangsters also might spring out, so street crime is not a small thing. It should be taken seriously too, of course.
La Eme was originally just a prison gang, and it is still sometimes called that, but it has moved on. Nowadays it has assumed sort of a managerial role in its relationship to the other mexican gangs in southern California and it is involved more and more sofisticated crime too.
Mexican drug cartels do not see themselves as white, true, but not black either. Columbians I guess do not even think about such things as race. They think money, like all the major operations.
But I think you are right that as human animals we are more able to see and identify the immeadiate dangers such as local junkies and muggers and see them as more potential threat to ourselves. That is understandable. As it is if and when you happen to be a victim of a street crime. I have no objection there.
But to see US black crime somehow apart the big crime, I think is seeing half the picture. Social problems, poverty etc. are the ingredients and if and when you introduce drugs in the mix, it explodes. After all, it is a one way to make money when there are no jobs nor others available.
I’ve been (un)fortunate to meet some real life professional criminals and what I have found out it this: they are after the money. The only reason to sell drugs or any other stuff is to make money. They would sell plastic bucketts if that would provide similar mounts of money. The only reason for any crime for them is money. If someone has an idea or a plan, the next question is How much. Then they figure out is it worth the risks or not. That is basically all that it is. Organized crime is a money making machine and if you are in it you can potentially make millions trough it.
Forget what the movies and books and stories say, the only reason for you to be in some criminal organisation is that it gives you the edge in the competion for the money. As a member of a powerful criminal network you have access to all kinds of deals, illegal and legal, plus you have the backing of that network in case of conflict. So if and when you join some criminal organisation, you know that the idea is to make money.
Sicilian mafia did not kill those judges because they thoughed that was cool but to send a message: do not disturb our business. When that tactic failed, sicilian mafia submerged and has been still for years by now. But nobody believes it has dissappeared. Like judge Falcone said before his death: when there is a silence we should be worried, because that means that the system is working well.
When you join a street gang your motives are more varied. It may be a cool thing to do, it gives you a sense of belonging and prestige around the hood. You get friends and parties, booze, drugs and girls etc. There are true and true criminals in street gangs too but for the majority it is a way to be more than alone. Albeit it may be deadly choice as the cult of violence is part of that scene.
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@Chuck…
You sound like an honest and sincere guy to me. Though obviously you’ve allowed yourself to become misguided on a lot of your views concerning race and racism. This is based upon what seems like a broad generalization of your own individual circumstances.
From your postings you appear to be seeking a reconciliation of your personal direct experiences (both positive and negative re: race) with those of a general accepted, but not always contested, ideologically racist society.
To me this is classic case of: “Congintive Dissonance”!. And for someone of supposed high intelligence as your self I am actually surprised you don’t see it!. Its been pointed out to you far too many times already in numerous posts on Abagond’s blog. To the extent to which you even have your own dedicated post!!! — THIS ONE
Chuck. Surely this must tell you something? Even you cannot be that dim!!!
If you really wish to make sense of your own personal direct experiences, shaped by the obvious circumstances of your upbringing, then you need to delve a bit more deeper into this racsim thang then casually conversations on a blog.
As an example in delving deeper. Consider Sam’s excellent contributions on the origins of “Black” and “white” criminality re: drugs, in their respective communities to YOU!
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Pure confirmation bias. A bigot is going to see what they want to see no matter what. Higher crime rates do not justify that everyone in that group be treated “less than”.
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“3.The crime rate is lower in white neighbourhoods because they receive much better police protection than black ones. It has little to do with white people being more moral or black people having some kind of criminal nature. They both have the same human nature.”
Actually, there’s a growing concensus among social analysts racial differences in violent crime are driven by racial differences in single parent families. Black communities have much higher levels of female headship than white ones. This means that 1) alot of males in these locations are not contrained by domestic roles as husband and father and 2) children don’t recieve as much attention and support as they are growing up because their biological father isn’t there for them. Both of these conditions ultimately lead to higher levels of violence. Read the more recent work of James Q. Wilson and Heather McDonald for more information.
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Treat people like criminals and they’ll behave like criminals.
(Truly) democratic societies have the choice between applying rigourous repression / relentless non-tolerance policies and reasonable weighing out pros and cons as far as certain restrictions that are mainly based on double standards. A lot of countries in this world don’t even have that choice.
The higher the number of prisons and inmates, the stronger the indicator for a failed system.
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chuck Uncle Milton et al:
Meth was introduced into poor white communities by the CIA in order to criminalize them and destroy rural communities.
are you serious ? Are you pulling my leg again?
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Chuck Also, you’d probably be interested to hear some of my grandfather’s thoughts about an all too prevalent strain of black people.
not that different than my own but I’m all ears.
I bring it up a lot, and I apologize to beat a dead horse, but I’m redheaded.
No problem, I was once a redhead too, Miss Clairol #31
Even so, I don’t deny the objective truth by pretending that redheads are as naturally physically attractive as people with other hair colors.
Blonde is a rare hair color too, so why is blonde hair celebrated but red hair isn’t? redhead hatred is more of white people thing. I’ve never been prevy to a conversation amongst blk Americans where we make fun of redheads, just noted how rare they are.
it seems that naturally occurring red hair is more common among blk Americans than blonde hair. That hatred of redheads was brought over from England and has become ingrained into mainstream culture.
People have told me that they think most redheads are weird looking, and I have to agree with them on that score
Really? I don’t think they are any more “weird” looking than a pale skinned blue-eyed blonde person or a jet blk Sudanese Dinka.
Google carolina kluft and alec wek.
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Abagond,
A simple question? If black people received the same level of police protection as that of whites and other non-blacks, would crime and violence in our community be any different?
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Trying to tell a racist that blacks aren’t more criminally-minded than whites or other NAMs is like trying to tell Sarah Palin that you can’t see Russia from a back porch in Wasilla, AK without the assistance of high-power, long-range sighting equipment. If a person is dead-set on believing something, then all evidence to the contrary will be ignored by them since it “does not compute”.
Arguing with them is senseless and a waste of time.
Tyrone asked:
“A simple question? If black people received the same level of police protection as that of whites and other non-blacks, would crime and violence in our community be any different?”
That isn’t a simple question. Far too many factors are in play here, the two largest being the inequality of the so-called ‘justice’ system, and the violent history of the USA.
In fact, let me pose this: If what you asked is so simple, why don’t you answer it yourself? Surely you have an answer in mind, no?
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A good example of how the law in America protects whites way better than blacks:
47.8% of those murdered in America in 2008 were black.
Yet 77% of those who were executed for homicide since 1977 were executed for killing a white person. Only 15% killed someone black.
Sources:
http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2010/11/22/the-death-penalty-race-and-the-victim/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States
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To Abagond:
47.8% of those murdered in America in 2008 were black.
Yet 77% of those who were executed for homicide since 1977 were executed for killing a white person. Only 15% killed someone black.
Considering that 94% of the Black people murdered in the US are killed by other Black people.. do you think perhaps that the wishes of the families of the victims have something to do with the lower execution rates for Black people or possibly the jury composition (since, in many states, it requires a Jury’s approval to execute a prisoner..)? I get the impression that Black people support the death penalty much less than Whites although I could be wrong. Also since 86% of the White people murdered in the US were killed by other White people, it would appear that Whites are more likely to be executed for murder. (as a percentage of the murders they commit..)
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/race-death-row-inmates-executed-1976
Even so it does appear that the race of the victim is important.. I would like to know more details as to why some people received the death penalty versus others who received lesser sentences.
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I really don’t care WHO has a higher crime rate. The US as a whole is a HIGH crime rate.
I’m moving to Japan. Even their crime lords *yakuza* bring about some peace and believe in some sort of honor code! USA really needs to get it together!!!!!!!!!
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I hate it when people say blacks commit more crimes. Since when did violent crimes become the only type of crime? Corporate crime steals way more money and affects a higher proportion of ppl than street crime, yet we hear nobody profiling for middle aged white men in suits. People, think logically when it comes to your hate
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I think Americans in general tend to view the pervasiveness of crime as much worse than it is in reality. I think our public tends to feel less safe than it actually is. We are a paranoid society overall and very susceptible to hysteria.
Many people in small towns think big cities like NYC and L.A. are “dangerous” but when you run the numbers, they are some of the safer large cities in the world per capita. Your chance of being murdered in a random act is very, very small. You’re more likely to die in a car crash. I don’t have the figures in front of me, but I think I recall hearing that most murders are drug related or acquaintance murders(such as crimes of passion). I remember in the mid 90s when crime was at it’s peak in L.A. there was an incident where a white family got lost and was driving down a small street in E. L.A. Some gang members gunned down their car and the media went apeshit like it was international news. Of course when the same happened to black or Latino kids, it would be a back page story. I remember at the time even black conservative talkshow host Larry Elder was calling the reaction racist. And if you know anything about Larry Elder, that says a lot.
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@ The Cynic:
I co-sign your entire statement, except for the last sentence: “People, think logically when it comes to your hate”
I can’t think of any hateful person I’ve met who used much logic! 😀
Also, any time I’ve entertained my own hateful thoughts, I can at least admit that I’m being biased! Too bad those HBDers and other ‘race realists’ can’t do the same…
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A couple of years ago, a guy from England on Youtube.com had an outrageous statistic on his page. First off, this guy was racist and believed that blacks are the biggest threat to whites. He made up this percentage that blacks are 600% (yes, 600%) more likely to murder a white person than a black person. As expected there are other whites who agreed with him.
I had to laugh because, and i’m not great in math, but wouldn’t that mean that the overall white population on Earth would be miniscule if not nonexistant?
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I hope all of you who say black are not violent live in black neighborhoods. Excusing the violent culture won’t make it go away. If you think whites are at fault for everything, please stop interacting with whites and move to your own neighborhood where it’s just as safe as the white neighborhood. No amount of talk changes the gruesome facts on the streets, a new phenomenon this summer is call “flash mobs” blacks using social media to organize wholesale looting of white neighborhoods. It will get worse before it gets better.
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To ‘Chuck’
Re: “at what point does the stereotyped group have a duty to change the facts that create those stereotypes?”
:”D At what point will ‘YOU’ find the courage to accept responsibility for ‘your’ own actions?! This ‘perpetrator blaming the victim’ mentality is pathetic and downright cowardly, not to mention laughable :’D
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@Samantha
Well said. You have a good point here. The oppressed can’t oppress the oppressor.
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Black crime does affect black people more than it does white people. I can honestly say that white crime affects white people more than it does non-white people. Historically, white crime has affected more people of color than it did whites themselves. That’s a fact!
Black stereotypes are reinforced in Hollywood movies, caricatures, and at white people’s Halloween parties.
Unfortunately, Halloween is the time that white people (of all ages) can show their racism towards blacks and other people of color. White people (hipster racists) call it “having fun for the occasion”. Yeah, right. Many of their costumes and black painted faces (blackface) say that white racism is concreted in their psyche. To be a racist white people don’t have to say black men are animals. Hell, their Halloween parties speak for them.
A typical Halloween party in the white suburbs
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Michael, it’s remiss not to point out that that black male willingly cooperated in his own racist dehumanization. The issue of white Americans (certain demographic of them) with their racist Halloween celebrations is certainly an issue. But in no way can the pictorial example you’ve shared be “typical”; it’s rare to find someone who will volunteer to be an object of scorn and depravity like the individual above. In that specific pictorial example the primary problem aren’t those white people it’s that black male.
Michael, where is the picture from?
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Devil Card:Black on Black Crime is the oldest,systematic and highly profit by the superior party. Everybody play a role of this deadly game. It isn’t highest like white on white crime or white on black crime. BOBC help the majority ones getting bread and butter on the table-media,political,police,hospital and other hot cats. If the news only focus on whites. It would been bad for business and superior title.
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Legion
Michael, where is the picture from?
———————————————————————
does everyone realize they are dressed as the characters from the cartoon “Scooby Doo?”
The black guy is “Scooby”
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@ Legion
I agree with the fact that some black people do exploit themselves – like most black actors, actresses, rappers, video vixens, etc.
The black guy in the picture is what many black and non-black people would call an “oreo”. He’s a product of white suburbia. Unfortunately, he’s totally ignorant of the stereotypes placed on men who look like him.
@ thwack
I do realize the people are dressed as the characters from the cartoon show ‘Scooby Doo’. Unfortunately, the black guy’s “costume” doesn’t reflect Scooby Doo’s adventurous and heroic dog character, it basically reflects the negative stereotype that says black men in America are animals.
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The pictures below do NOT represent a black male’s willingness to cooperate in his own dehumanization. The contemporary pictures are NO coincidence. Vogue magazine and the fashion industry are excellent example of refined racism and racial stereotypes.
A movie poster of King Kong (1933)
Lebron James and Gisele Bundchen on the cover of GQ Magazine (2008)
A photo of the ‘Girls and Giants’ (date unknown)
A photo of a black male and white female model (2013)
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“0.0156% compared to 0.0023%” would be unspectacular if the population was 50/50 white/black but its not. The black population is only 13%! In itself his isn’t a big deal until the side committing most violent crime starts to call for the abolishment of police. That crosses the line in my mind. Time for the black population to clean house before they start judging that of others.
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