Disclaimer: I have never set foot in Africa, much less lived there. Those who have please be gentle and patient! This is merely me trying to make sense of what is knowable from America:
Most of Africa is backward compared to the rest of the world, but it is nowhere near as bad as most Americans seem to think.
For example, if you search the CNN website for pictures of Luanda, the capital of Angola, here is the first picture of the city you get:
A slum.
Now try the New York Times:
Slum children picking through trash.
Now try the Internet as a whole. The first picture comes from a blogger:
Yes, that is Luanda. In Africa. Here is another picture:
Since you cannot trust American news to give you a balanced picture – or, for that matter, African bloggers rich enough to have Internet access – what can you do? Is there any quick and dirty way to tell how well off or bad off Africa is?
One common measure is GDP per capita – how much money people make. But it does not take the cost of living into account. Many in Africa are small-time farmers who grow their own food and build their own houses, meaning that much of the African economy is off the books.
Much better is life expectancy:
- It is universal – everyone dies.
- Life is far more precious than money.
- Most of the things that make life bad tend to shorten it too, like war, hunger, poverty and disease.
- It is easy to compare to times past.
Life expectancy for those born in 2010 goes generally like this:
- 80s: Japan, Singapore, Canada, Oceania, Western Europe
- 70s: America, Eastern Europe, the Caribbean, Latin America, the Middle East, East Asia
- 60s: Central Asia, Ukraine, Russia, South Asia
- under 60: black Africa
The world average is 67. In America it is 78 for whites, 71 for blacks.
So by that measure Africa is at the bottom.
Here is the breakdown for black Africa by country (the years in boldface I will tell you about below):
- 67 1960, 1970 (world average)
- 66 1950
- 65
- 64
- 63 Madagascar
- 62 1940, Sao Tome and Principe, Eritrea
- 61 Equatorial Guinea
- 60 Botswana, Mauritania, Western Sahara, Djibouti, Ghana
- 59 1930, Togo, Benin, Senegal
- 58 Kenya, Burundi
- 57 Guinea, Rwanda
- 56 1920, Liberia, Ivory Coast
- 55 Ethiopia, Sierra Leone
- 54 Congo (both), the Gambia, Cameroon
- 53 Burkina Faso
- 52 Niger, Uganda, Gabon, Sudan, Tanzania, Mali
- 51 Namibia
- 50 1910, Malawi, Lesotho, Somalia
- 49 Central African Republic, South Africa
- 48 1900, Guinea Bissau
- 47 Chad, Swaziland, Zimbabwe, Nigeria
- 46
- 45
- 44
- 43
- 42 1890
- 41 Mozambique
- 40
- 39
- 38 1850, Zambia, Angola
Angola is much worse than nearly all of Africa, making the slum children of Luanda the worst of the worst – not what most of Africa is like at all.
So just how bad off is most of Africa? That is where those years in boldface come in: they are the years when the life expectancy of White American men reached those ages.
So Angola is as bad as it was for White American men in 1850. Not great, yes, but we are not talking 2000 BC or 1400 either. Meanwhile most of Africa is where White America was in the early 1900s.
See also:
That’s how they do it! Same results for India (even the oh-so-gripping Slumdog romanticized the Mumbai slums as quintessentially Indian), Brazil (or “South America” if we wanna compare apples to apples), Bangladesh, The Philippines, etc.
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With regard to ‘How Backward is Africa’.
‘Advanced’ is usually associated with Western world/nations, which is ultimately tied to industrialisation and the accompaniment of other variables like technology.
etc
So this is why Africa may be viewed as ‘backward’ because ultimately its not living up to a socio-politico-economical yardstick of ‘Western nations’, and as determined by them what constitutes an ‘advanced’ society (ie teh opposite to ‘backward;).
Though paradoxically even though the ‘West’ may be ‘advanced’ with regard to certain variables. There are parts of Eastern Europe that can be regarded as ‘mini-Africas’ vis-a-vis Wesrtern nations.
And this is the stereotypes one sees in Western Europe with regard to Eastern European nations.
However, although Eastern Europe is not as rich vis-a-vis Western nations. You do not see images of poverty therein broadcasted over the world on a regular basis.
Though it is becoming this way in England, slowly but surely, with talk of immigration etc.
Finally even with the ‘advanced’ nations, you can see great disparity. For instance at the time of ‘Great’ Britain, only a small amount benefited from ’empire building’, whereas the lower classes lived in abject poverty.
Perhaps a good example of this today is America , which has vast technology, all the modern trappings of civilisation etc, but is greatly in debt, does not have a health care system and so on.
Personally ‘backward’ and ‘advanced’ should be related to factors of how well does a given country treat its citizen, its minorities, women etc etc etc?? In other words the ‘moral component’ as opposed to the ‘technological’ parameters that we use at present. Notwithstanding that I am aware that ‘poverty’ can also lead to a ‘lowering of morality’.
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Nice post, but I am not sure how helpful it is. For your average joe 1950s were “ancient history” and the way of life back then looks really “backwards” comparing to today’s standards- not to mention 1900s or 1850s. So in other words, saying “Africa is like early 1900 and not 2000 BC” doesn’t help- it’s the same thing for them.
I’d try another technique. In America you have large, urban cities. But you also have small towns and poor rural areas. I am not saying Africa is the same as America, but it’s obvious western journalists only focus on things they see as “real” Africa (slum) and not urban centers. But their image of America is always New York or LA, and never some forgotten small town full of white trash people or whatever.
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And again…
With regard to history, we often tend to forget that things are constantly in flux.
For example, if I have remembered correctly, teh Romans did not like to use British slaves becasue they were thought of as stupid.
Cue 2,000 yeasr later – a very short period in history. This little island was going to have an empire ‘where the sun never sets’ because it was so vast.
Finally with regard to history, Blacks have had their respective ‘advanced’ nations at a time when most Western nations (France, Britain etc) were in the ‘Dark Ages’.
And at some point in the future a similar cycle will emerge again. At present we are seeing the rise of China and even India – both two former colonies
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Well, technically, nations didn’t exist back then. But I get what you’re saying.
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incidentally, i came across an article on CNN that may interest you. it’s called ‘Photographs reveal secret urban life of Africa’ http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/africa/06/10/urban.africa.photographs/index.html
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When you start off saying “How backward is Africa?” then…well…sincerely, you sound like you’ve made up your mind that Africa IS a backward place, and all that is left to measure is the degree of backwardness. I take offence at that. I really am disappointed considering all I’ve read off this blog. I’m sorry, I’m actually incensed. I just hope you get enough of an education from what I will say. I tend to go off half cocked when I’m angry. And before you ask, I will answer. You, a black person who could probably trace your roots to my continent, are obviously looking down on my continent. The term “backward” is derogatory. One is NOT backward when the person is trying, against all odds, to move forward.
To be honest, you can not tell me that right there in your country, America, you don’t find such a dichotomy as what you have represented in the photos you have of Luanda (you DO know that’s the most expensive city in Africa to live in right?). Need I remind you that “Precious” the film, came out of your country? I gave birth to my son in your country, in Baltimore. And I saw some rough sides of Baltimore (I refused to step out of the car) but stayed in a more beautiful part of Maryland in Columbia. I have been to New York, to Atlanta, to Philadelphia…and I’ve seen some of the rough parts…and some of the beautiful parts. That doesn’t automatically mean your country is backward or decadent.
The people putting up those beautiful pictures of Luanda are only trying to create a balance. I am Nigerian, I grew up in Nigeria, and I mean I only left there about 7 years ago when I was 23. I love my country and I love my continent. The thing is, just like there are slums everywhere else, there are slums in my country. And there are the beautiful parts.
Remember again that Africa is a continent that has been raped continually by the western world. And I mean systematically up until tomorrow and the day after. And the day after that. The oil in my country? Every single big name has it’s claws in there…Halliburton, ExxonMobil, Shell (Royal Dutch)…and you think that they are going to want my country to work when they can thrive on the corruption that goes on in there? Seriously? The odd thing is, this companies do not contribute anything to the people who REALLY need it. (Corporate Social Responsibility??? What’s THAT???) The people who are actually affected by their drilling. The ones who cannot fish or farm to sustain their communities because some Oil giant has spilled oil and killed off what is there, and turned around and given some money to corrupt officials to hush it up. You drive a continent down by your actions yet turn around and call it BACKWARD??? You rape someone over and over again and you expect the person to be able to sprint right out in front of you?
South Africa hosts the world cup, and foreigners go in there and try to tell them HOW to celebrate, demanding that Sepp Blatter ban the Vuvuzelas. Seriously? You think if Africa was so backward we would be ALLOWED to host the World Cup? Would we really??? And yes, I am educated. I had my fist degree in Nigeria. My English is as fluent as it is flawless. And I speak my Yoruba comfortably and just as fluently. And yes, it is the norm in my country (p.s. we learn English, IN ENGLISH. We are not taught English in a separate language). That I speak it with an accent does not mean that I do not speak it better than the Englishman himself does.
It is bad enough when white people view one in this manner, but from another black person? Who KNOWS what it’s like to be constantly deprived and put down? Who KNOWS what it’s like to struggle to get up? And then ridiculed for being down there where you’ve been shoved? It’s just too much.
Africa has been raped by everyone from the Brits to the Belgians with almost everything taken from her. And you call her backward as she gropes her way forward with blood still running down her thighs. Tell me what other continent has taken from the western world as much as my continent has taken? How difficult do you think it would be to climb out of that? To develop??? But we’re backward. We’re described as a festering sore on the face of the earth by the very bastards who caused the wounds. And then people who can trace their history to the continent also call it BACKWARD. TCHA!!!
I need to breathe…maybe I’ll write some more when my head is clearer and I am not as incensed.
I’ll leave you with a few links though, these people (my people) are more clear headed than I am right now:
http://elombah.com/index.php/components/com_comment/joscomment/templates/modern/css/modules/mod_nice_social_bookmark/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3264:the-rape-of-africa&catid=30:the-economy&Itemid=41
Read King Leopold’s Ghost. Seriously.
p.s.
This is the reason why I feel the term “African American” is hypocritical. You guys are Black American. The only similarities we have begin and end at our skin tone. Period. Why try to identify with a continent you know absolutely nothing about? Especially one you view as backward? Heck you refer to us as “fresh off the boat” right??? If there was another continent where Black Americans could have come from, what would you guys have called yourselves? Okay I need to breathe. Seriously.
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When Portugal left Angola, they ripped out all the infrastructure including telephone lines. I think many African nations progressed more quickly with wireless communication, cell phones, than the west.
It makes no sense to have tall building with many vacancies. There was a push to build taller than Penn’s hat on a statue on top of City Hall in Philadelphia. When the gentleman’s agreement was broken so that Philly could have a skyline, the second such building built didn’t fill up. Behind so many bank mergers and closing, and other building becoming vacant from companies moving; many are being transformed into condo’s. Philly has a skyline, but hardly represents progress.
What I guess I’m trying to say, is that now a lot of progress in the US is only a facade. Any forward movement in an African country is progress.
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@eccentricyoruba, “secret urban life of Africa”??? These guys never cease to amaze! This so called “secret urban life” of Africa is the only Africa that I have ever come in contact with. For a lot of us (the 10 million or more that grew up in Lagos) this is what we know! This so called “Secret Urban Life”! Seriously…I need to leave this blog.
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@ Titan. I think Abagond was using the term “secret” to describe the way the western media portrays Africa in the West. It’s a “secret” because it is so rarely covered, while the slums and jungles and refugee camps get all the attention.
Clearly it wouldn’t be a secret to people who live there.
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:sigh:
Titan…I hear you, after the ‘Stereotypes about Africa’, ‘Africa is a continent’ topics, and now this, I can understand it would seem we’ve been hit three times in a week, LOL, I’m tired :sigh: don’t have the energy right now..
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Well without wishing to appear to be ‘bash’-ful here
There have been many groups ‘bashed’ on this blog: African-American males, Black women but for the vast the majority of post, it is mainly Whites who have been ‘bashed’ the most
In essence, my philosophy on chatboards at least, has always been ‘if you going to give out ‘bashings’ then at some point one should also be able to receive them accordingly and with the same intensity when dishing (here read ‘bashing’) them out- not always easy, but something in principle to strive for.
So back to the ‘bashing’ – and I am an individual that tries to identify with Africa – as best as I can.
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For goodness sake there are beautiful places in Africa that have nothing to do with wildlife.
Check these out:
Lagos Nigeria
Obudu Cattle ranch Calabar, Nigeria
Abuja, Nigeria
Ghana (a little night life)
http://www.youtube.com/watchv=LoTomlBUxOQ&feature=related
Accra, Ghana
http://www.youtube.com/watchv=4bZf6HWi6I0&feature=related
There is so much more I could post but I am not one for long posts. I guess the only way people in the west can get to see the full picture of Africa is to go there. Become friends with Africans and go to Africa with them so they can show you what there particular country is all about.
Is asking for a balanced portrayal of Africa wrong?
All we seem to get in the western media is poverty porn.
I want to see it all the GOOD, bad, and ugly.
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Apart from what I see in Nollywood and Gollywood movies, I know very little first hand on the true state of Africa. What I do know, is that a few young people have gone back to Ghana to live, they prefer it to life in Canada which they described as stifling. Nairobi has the reputation of being the Manhattan of East Africa but much cleaner than NYC. Botswana has consistently been named one of the top economies and best run countries in Africa. West Africa is constantly being developed so much so that the Chinese have invested a lot in the oil industry there. From what I have gathered, Africa is nothing close to what is painted in the American media.
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This is the reason why I feel the term “African American” is hypocritical. You guys are Black American. The only similarities we have begin and end at our skin tone. Period. Why try to identify with a continent you know absolutely nothing about?
We did not like it when the Europeans came to name us and divide up our nations as they say fit. We didn’t like them “defining” us.
We cannot go “defining” someone else either.
Abagond erred with his title and with this opening line: “Most of Africa is markedly backward compared to the rest of the world, but it is nowhere near as bad as most Americans seem to think.”
He shouldn’t have compared it to the rest of the world. Much of what the rest of the world holds dear and how they think does not apply in Africa. Our nature is not the nature of other peoples; we’re the oldest people and when you’re older than everyone else, you tend to see things a bit differently.
When my mother sent me back to the US, I felt as though I had left a completely other world. And I mourned that loss for weeks.
Abagond, you can do better. Try again.
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“This is the reason why I feel the term “African American” is hypocritical. You guys are Black American. The only similarities we have begin and end at our skin tone. Period. Why try to identify with a continent you know absolutely nothing about? Especially one you view as backward? Heck you refer to us as “fresh off the boat” right???”
Actually, it might be a good post to deal with the tensions between Africans and African-Americans. This has been an ongoing problem for decades and generations now. Each group has it’s issues with the other. It might be useful to clear the air.
Titan, there are more similarities between us than just our skin tone. But really, it might be interesting at some point to review what the differences really are — when you’re less angry though.
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Titan, there are more similarities between us than just our skin tone.
I agree
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Uh oh, I think Abagond touched a nerve.
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@ Titan:
1. Thank you for your honest comment.
2. Thanks for the links. I love Adichie’s speech on the single story.
3. You are right, the title was unfair – it was like, “When did you stop beating your wife?” I changed it as much as I could without rewriting the whole post. I see now that the structure of the post set me up to fail: it placed me in the position of judging a billion people I know little of. It will have to stand as a monument to my arrogant ignorance.
4. Please do not assume I hate vuvuzelas or love the term African American. You do not see me using that word.
5. You have lived in Africa so you have a way truer picture of it than most Americans. Americans see pictures like the first two all the time and think that is Africa coast to coast because they rarely see pictures like the second two. That is why CNN calls them “secret” – a secret they have been guarding well.
6. My aim is not to bash Africa or look down my nose at it. I am trying to be as honest and clear-sighted as I can. In America we are told terrible things about Africa – so I am wondering how true they are. I think they are true in and of themselves but I suspect that the Western press is leaving a good deal out. It seems that the poverty porn gets on air because the NGOs push it and it appeals to the underlying racism of white news editors.
7. I understand that the West screwed up Africa and continues to do so to this day – like Shell in Nigeria. But this post is not about the why, just the if and how much.
8. I have seen the good and bad sides of American cities too, so I know America is nowhere near as good as it comes off on television. Which, in fact, is a huge reason why I suspect its picture of Africa.
9. After reading the comments by you and MerriMay the natural thing for me would be to just back off and keep my mouth shut about Africa. I have done that twice before on this blog, after writing about Nigeria and Laurent Nkunda. But all that did was keep my American stereotypes about Africa in place.
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10. Racists come on this blog all the time pushing the idea “Africa is screwed up therefore blacks are screwed up”. So the issue will not go away all on its own.
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If Africa is so backwards why are their immigrants to the U.S. more educated than the average white person?
African and Caribbean immigrants are the most educated and skilled immigrants coming to the US. It is really weird being a member of a model minority and the one of most debased minority in the U.S.
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I’d try another technique. In America you have large, urban cities. But you also have small towns and poor rural areas. I am not saying Africa is the same as America, but it’s obvious western journalists only focus on things they see as “real” Africa (slum) and not urban centers. But their image of America is always New York or LA, and never some forgotten small town full of white trash people or whatever.
The thing is, in America there is a very sharp divide and very tense relations between urban/suburban and exurban/rural people. But, for the past few years there’s been a culmination of an urban exodus movement combined with the glorification and romanticizing of the rural areas of “real” America, particularly the white rural areas, of course, for better or worse. Add to that the double standard in play when talk of rural blacks — Black rural areas are either nonexistent, or no different from the inner-city ghettos — just out in the country, or some small town in Mississippi somewhere in need of saving like Mississippi Burning. So talking about America doesn’t almost exclusively bring up urban cities, at least not anymore. I think it’s plain and simple ignorance combined with good ol’ American racism that presents these distorted images of the continent of Africa to a group of people who are proudly racist and proudly ignorant.
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[quote]If Africa is so backwards why are their immigrants to the U.S. more educated than the average white person?
African and Caribbean immigrants are the most educated and skilled immigrants coming to the US. [/quote]
To be fair, You have to remember, many visas are given to selected skilled workers who are ambitious enough to start a new life in a another country. Otherwise, any riff raff are left behind in the old country.
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Mira
With regard to:
“Well, technically, nations didn’t exist back then. But I get what you’re saying.”
We have to be very careful how we use our terms academically. In some instances it is correct to say race does NOT exist, and/or even Nation-states either. And at other times it is not. What is important is understanding the ‘context’
However, when we are speaking of the social science subjet called history, we can find ourselves in very problematic areas.
For instance to say nation-states does not exist, is not the same as saying people did not reside in geographical land space which was later to be called England.
None of this takes away from the ‘fact’ that the Romans viewed the inhabitants of these ‘shores’ as ‘inferior’ and subsequently 2,000 years later, those that resided in these ‘shores’ were able to form an empire so huge.
And with regard to things NOT existing, in real terms there is no Iraq, Iran, Nigeria, Cameroon etc.
Much of the world and the countries we see today are the result and creation of ‘Western Imperialism’. However, it is very rare for you to hear people saying these ‘realities’ do NOT exist.
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With regard to:
Abagond erred with his title and with this opening line: “Most of Africa is markedly backward compared to the rest of the world, but it is nowhere near as bad as most Americans seem to think.”
Forgive me here, this is not the first title, where the ‘centredness’ or perhaps its just a loose way of losing language is problematic.
For instance the topic: Are Black woman Ugly or does racism make them so (paraphrasing)
could be
“How does racism contribute to the dis-figuring the beauty of Black women??”
Then again, we are on a chatboard, and unless Abagond is the leader of ‘Black revolution’. Then we also need to bear this in mind, and again the relevance of ‘context’ (as alluded to in my previous post).
Personally, I like teh question because in a way it gets you think about the term ‘backwardness’ and in fact how ‘western-eurocentric’ the term is.
There is always reference to ‘progress’ within the Western world, whether it be in the human species and/or countries (societies).
Whereas for other societies perspectives. The nature of the world will NOT be seen as one of ‘progress’ but ‘cyclical’, where things ‘ebb and flow’ constantly
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Im a African male and I m sorry if my english is not perfect ( because Iam from TOGO, a francophone country in Africa.
The modern map of Africa is extremly different from the original one. Africa had Kingdoms (with Kings and QUEENS) with Palaces, libraries, hospitals, musics, dances, CLOTHES… before Europeens even know that there is a place called Africa. (dont forget Egypt is in africa and the original egyptians were BLACKS then the arabes took over throught the spead of islam). Many inventions were initiated in Africa.
Africa is backword but not as much as you think. I have never seen any thing good on TV about Africa since I have been living in the US for 4 years. And that has direct and negative influence on the African economy and society in general and africans living abroad and on the continent, but also on other black people around world who have a bad picture about the continent and dont wanna have nothing to do with it.
Africa had been divided without the presence of Africans. Imagine (for example) Australia takes over the North American continent and decides that Mexico, USA and Canada become 54 different contries, and part of Texas and a part of mexico are forced to be a country. Who will rule that country? American decsents or Mexican descents? Then, probably a civil war start. This is one of the major problems of the modern african continent.
People also think that in Africa we are all like cousins. We are very differents , we speake differents languages, we have differents fitures, different cultures, religions… even though we have some similarities like russians and frenchs have or chines and japaneses have or Canadians and Americans have.
Again Africa is a big continent with 30.2 million km² with 53 countries and 1 billion people. So do not compare africans to jamaicans ( an island) for example.or africans to black brazilians because the scale is too different. People (including myself)have no idea of the diversity of that place. Poverty is part of Africa but it is not all of it, not even most of it.
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@ Titan:
I can see how the title and the way some sentences were phrased could get you on edge.
I had a similar reaction to something when i first started reading this blog many months ago; however, having gotten used to the way Abagond structures many of his posts (often starting by quoting a common assumption and then subsequently challenging it), I learned to look at it from a different perspective. And having a fair idea of where Abagond is coming from most of the time, I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt when he expresses something clumsily.
It would be a shame for you to leave this blog, because obviously you have important things to contribute.
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@Agabond
Wow!!! I am shocked Agabond. I normally look eagerly forward to reading your blogs and recommend and post them to other people for informative and critical perspectives.
So imagine my incredulity when after reading two posts on Africa in succession – “Africa is a country” and “Stereotypes about Africa” – you decide to go with post along the lines of “How backward is Africa?” Sorry!! I mean “Is Africa backward”
That may have been a slip up by me just then but it illustrates perfectly the dual perception you as a Black (or African which ever you prefer) American seem to have saddled yourself with.
I watched with interest the comments section on this to see who might be the first to pull you up on this. And I have to say that we should all be indebted to Titan’s excellent contribution and posted links – By far one of the best contributions (with associated links) that I have read in this biog on the topic of Africa.
Abagond I do hope you sincerely take note of his critique as it may well help you to challenge some of your own “stereotypical” views or ideas about Africa.
As I started off praising you on the quality of your Blog posts there really is no excuse here for your “apparent” lack of insight. Even if you did try to cover yourself initially with a disclaimer!!! And some of which you have addressed in later posts
Maybe one of your future topics for consideration might be the notion of what it means to be African or Black American. Its obvious your prefer the latter.
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I think Abagond’s own privilege (American privilege) prevented him to make this post much better, but at least he seems to be aware of his mistakes and doesn’t pretend he does know Africa better than the actual Africans (which is a common pattern for displaying your own privilege).
@J
We have to be very careful how we use our terms academically. In some instances it is correct to say race does NOT exist, and/or even Nation-states either. And at other times it is not. What is important is understanding the ‘context’
Nation states exist today. They are product of specific time and didn’t occur before 18th century anywhere. Some countries are product of imperialism, others are not. But in any case, nations did not exist back in the days you were referring to: in antiquity, middle ages, 15th, 16th or 17th century.
This is a very important issue in my part of the world and the thing 99% people don’t get.
That’s why I’m touchy when it comes to it.
However, I do understand your argument and I agree with it. Still, permit me for adding this note- it was close to home I guess (for reasons unrelated to racism).
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On the other hand, I believe Abagond made himself clear he didn’t believe Africa was a country and that he didn’t believe harmful stereotypes about it.
Still, I am getting a different vibe here- it does seem he sees Africa as “a bit” backwards which shows his privilege. But nobody’s perfect and he seems to be ready to learn. God knows we all have a lot to learn.
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I think I understand Mira, with regard to the issue of Yugoslavia – why it would be close to home.
I would just like to add, with regard to:
‘SOME countries are product of imperialism, others are not’.
that most of the world has been created by Western Imperialism. All of Africa, the Middle East countries, Indian sub-continent, the Americas (including the Caribbean), and even parts of Australasia
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Well, J, I know my part of the world is small and probably exception to the rule, but since it is not a product of western imperialism I am obligated to say this.
I think I understand Mira, with regard to the issue of Yugoslavia – why it would be close to home.
Are you kidding? There was a war (several wars?) less than two decades ago. All because of this. It’s as close to home as it can get.
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Mira,
I think you have misunderstood what I have said, perhaps a carry over from the dual conversation we are having here.
Have another re-read of my words on this post.
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As I understood, you asked why I consider the issue of nation and nation states close to home. And I tried to explain.
It was a distraction from the main discussion, I admit and I apologized. I didn’t want to use it to derail the argument of Africa, Abagond’s views and the other important things in this post.
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I have to say I am disappointed with this post, but not as disappointed as I thought I would be when you told me you were going to write it.
It’s nothing new to me that black Americans don’t think the highest of Africa. But I don’t place the blame on black Americans; they are Americans, and Americans as a whole don’t think the highest of most places outside of America.
Titan took most of the words out of my mouth, so I don’t have to say much.
“It is bad enough when white people view one in this manner, but from another black person?”
Race/ethnicity doesn’t seem to make a noticeable difference in the way Americans view Africa. After all, they went to the same schools, have the same/similar media. The average person, anywhere, isn’t going to go above and beyond to learn about a subject they aren’t mandated to.
As for this exchange,
Titan says:
“This is the reason why I feel the term “African American” is hypocritical. You guys are Black American. The only similarities we have begin and end at our skin tone. Period.”
King says:
“Titan, there are more similarities between us than just our skin tone.”
leaveumthinking says:
“I agree”
King and leaveumthinking, what other similarities do you feel there are between black Americans and Africans (immigrants or otherwise)? I would be itnerested in your responses.
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eccentricyoruba,
“incidentally, i came across an article on CNN that may interest you. it’s called ‘Photographs reveal secret urban life of Africa’ http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/africa/06/10/urban.africa.photographs/index.html “
This looks more like what the cities I’ve visited in Africa look like. The villages however, are a bit different. Similar to the urban/rural divide in the U.S.
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Natasha
But I don’t place the blame on black Americans; they are Americans, and Americans as a whole don’t think the highest of most places outside of America.
That’s what I wanted to say with “American privilege”- I wasn’t sure if I made myself clear.
I’ve never been in Africa but I’d love to go. My knowledge of Africa is in so many ways very limited, I’m afraid.
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Apart from “King Leopold’s Ghost” recommended by Titan, are there any other books I should read to give me a better idea of Africa?
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I also wanted to comment on this part of the post:
“Much better [than GDP at measuring quality of life] is life expectancy:
•Life is far more precious than money.
This is an aspect that highlights one of the differences I noticed between the U.S. and many parts of Africa. To most of those in Africa, life is far more important than money. They are much warmer and friendly and will give a stranger a place to stay and food to eat, despite not having much in the way of tangibles. The villages especially are like a community. Most people in America are more individualistic: they think mainly of themselves and how they can better advance, and are not to worried about what is happening to the next person unless they can somehow gain from it. This helps them progress financially but leaves them morally bereft.
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Mira,
Just to say that was not my point – I was not asking you to clarify anything.
I was being ‘culturally sensitive’ by stating:
” think I understand Mira, with regard to the issue of Yugoslavia – why it would be close to home”.
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abagond, others can probably recommend some books, but I tend to use primary sources; mainly people.
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Oh, sorry! I was sure you said you DIDN’T understand why it would be close to home. 🙂
As for measuring GDP per capita or technology- I never understood why these are often taken as indicators of “progress”. Like it’s automatically assumed those who don’t have it are “backwards”.
For example, large cities shown on this page could demonstrate that Africa, after all, doesn’t seem so backwards. As if villages or poor/rural life is “backwards”.
Also, I bet you could find horrible slums anywhere in America, poor areas, dirty places, etc. But these things are never seen in a way “that’s what America is like”.
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“As for measuring GDP per capita or technology- I never understood why these are often taken as indicators of “progress”. Like it’s automatically assumed those who don’t have it are “backwards”.”
I think it’s safe to say those things measure progress considering that people from “traditionalist” societies often seek to move countries with higher GDP and and better technology (like Natasha).
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Uhhh, I didn’t move anywhere (outside of the U.S.). I was born and raised in New England.
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“…But I don’t place the blame on black Americans; they are Americans, and Americans as a whole don’t think the highest of most places outside of America.
That’s what I wanted to say with “American privilege”- I wasn’t sure if I made myself clear…
Well this is definitely a form of “American privilege” Or how about American arrogance or ignorance. Or even a combination of both?
It seems as though whats important is “being” American more than anything else. Well, I suppose that again is your privilege if you wish to exercise it. However you need to address the historical, moral and ethical actions that always, and continue to, accompany this.
I have always wondered what it is about America that gave a whole lot of them such a “simplistic” view of the rest of the world.
A lot of this is, in my view, is intrinsically linked to how they see themselves. Unfortunately not all appear to make the full connection to being – Black to being – African to AFRICA.
Not that they should of course as we all have an equally valid right to proclaim our identity as we see fit. But it does explain why a lot of “black” Americans – and to be honest not just this one ethnic group – would seem more comfortable with the label – American.
My own personal background is UK born with African and Caribbean parents. However, I have direct experience of all three countries. Maybe as more black Americans forge common links in other Black centres of the world this perception they have of the world may radically change. And in doing so question the perception of themsleves in the generally accepted term of African Americans.
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That is interesting, yes, but it has nothing do with how “backwards” a place is per se.
First of all, technology is rubbish. And yes, I am a hypocrite here because there are some that I use everyday and I’m not sure if I’d be able to function properly without it (in an everyday experience).
Being poor, on the other hand, is no fun, no fun at all. Especially if you happen to live in a country that doesn’t value your education or your effort (like mine, for example).
Still, these things are not good tools for measuring progress. America, for example, has an atrocious health care system- even cruel if I may to say, that not many other countries understand. To me, that is backwards (and I live in a country that is sometimes considered “backwards” by western standards).
What I’m saying is, there are no absolute standards. This is another cultural thing. To measure whether a country is backward using a western standard is just one way to look at it. If you use another standard, the image is completely different.
That’s why life expectancy might be a good indicator. Level of happiness might be the best, though.
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My reply was reply to FG’s last comment.
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FG,
Just to say that people also move to the West because of the ‘illusion’ that the streets are ‘paved with gold’
And agan this is a false perception foisted upon the Third World (and even Eastern European nations also), including Africans (since this is what the post is about) which many then ‘internalise’.
Only when they come to the West they are ‘hit’ by a ‘reality check’
GDP measures Gross Domestic Product in thr economic field. I am not sure it ‘measures’ ‘progress’, as you can see by my earlier comments.
Since I am sure you must be aware that the GDP of a country can increase but without adequate re-distribution of wealth etc, GDP will mean ‘nothing’.
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As for American privilege, I’m sure you know that extremely non-PC joke (“food shortage in the rest of the world”). I’m not sure if I should post it, since it’s offensive on several levels.
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Just to say that people also move to the West because of the ‘illusion’ that the streets are ‘paved with gold’
Oh yes, this is true. I know many people who left Serbia only to be really really disappointed by what they found out there. That is one of the reasons I am not so quick to become an immigrant.
I am sick of western media image of happy immigrant vs bad, angry one. There’s no such thing as a happy immigrant. To be an immigrant is usually the choice between two bad things.
Also, westerner often don’t get one important thing: non-western countries are sometimes not the best places to live in BECAUSE OF THE WEST. Westerners come, mess with economy, do bad things, leave a mess and then they get angry when people try to get away from that mess. That’s why I spit on western idea of “helping other nations in need”. Please, don’t help us. Just please, don’t.
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Mira,
“As for measuring GDP per capita or technology- I never understood why these are often taken as indicators of “progress”. Like it’s automatically assumed those who don’t have it are “backwards”.
It’s a sign of economic progress, if nothing else. However, I agree that it is an incomplete measure. Especially since most wealth centers around a small fraction of the population in any country, and even moreso in countries in Africa, South America, etc.
J,
“Just to say that people also move to the West because of the ‘illusion’ that the streets are ‘paved with gold’
And agan this is a false perception foisted upon the Third World (and even Eastern European nations also), including Africans (since this is what the post is about) which many then ‘internalise’.
Very true. Many people in Africa tend to have as skewed a view of the U.S. as the U.S. has of them. I know a few families who were well-off in Africa and thought that when they moved to the U.S., life would be even better. Wrong. One family moved back because the work was too much.
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True, Natasha. Many people I personally know have a very skewed idea of America.
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Mira,
“What I’m saying is, there are no absolute standards. This is another cultural thing. To measure whether a country is backward using a western standard is just one way to look at it. If you use another standard, the image is completely different.
That’s why life expectancy might be a good indicator. Level of happiness might be the best, though.”
I agree that level of happiness is a good measure. A long life doesn’t mean much if you’re miserable the entire time. This also reminds me of an article I read some time ago about a study done on happiness throughout the world. The study listed Nigeria, an African country as happiest. Followed by Mexico and Venezuela. Which might surprise someone who has never been to those countries, but didn’t surprise me. The article is from 2003; I wonder if anything has changed since then:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/3157570.stm
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Oh yes, I remember this study. I wasn’t surprised with the results (ok, I didn’t know which country would win as the happiest, but I assumed it’s not going to be any that is considered rich).
Still, I don’t like the style of the news article (or similar articles- and there are many). All about “money does not buy happiness” as if it’s that much of a surprise. Or that Nigeria winning as the happiest is a greater surprise than, say, France or Australia would be.
PS-What happened with FG’s and my last posts? Did we say something wrong?
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I didn’t like the “money doesn’t buy happiness” bit either, but I thought it was only providing balance. And a reminder.
I think abagond deleted your posts and FG’s because they were off-topic.
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FG was derailing. Who he considers to be TRUE Americans is way off topic and was taking over the thread.
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Oh, ok. I am sorry for going off topic.
I’ll try to find a more recent study. I remember one from around 2007 or 2008 but I don’t remember the “winners”.
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Mira, I’ve seen more recent articles, but they take into account life expectancy, GDP, literacy rates, etc. Thus missing the point entirely.
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The whole concept of “backwardness” is redolent with social darwinian beliefs regarding human social groups.
It presumes that nations or peoples are isolated and homogenous entities which can be compared along a single yardstick. Even if one uses life-expectancy (and I agree that this is a reasonable measure of development) what we miss out on is the fact that all countries are differently positioned within a global capitalist system in which there are clear-cut winners and losers. Without trying to reactivate dependency theory, it’s still pretty clear that some peoples’ “progress” is concretely based upon others’ “backwardness”. Nowhere is this more clear than in Africa, a continent that was raped by Europe for the better part of 3 centuries.
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Thad said:
“The whole concept of “backwardness” is redolent with social darwinian beliefs regarding human social groups.”
I agree with that. This post felt very Guy White to me – even though I was trying to fight against the ghost of No Slappz.
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For those who do not know, Guy White and No Slappz are white racist bloggers who like to rank the peoples of the world to excuse their own racism.
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Abagond,
Maybe from here you could explore some misconceptions/tensions between Africans and Black Americans? I don’t think the problem with this post is what you said (besides the original slanted title), but that you didn’t engage with the post after sharing statistics.
I consider myself “Black”; I would call children/immigrants from Africa “African American”. “African American” seems hollow given that I have no traceable family ties to Africa, and Black American and African American cultures are so different (as are West Indian, Afro-Latino, and other groups).
Besides a couple of kids in K-12, most of the African people I know are Nigerian students I go to school with. I haven’t experienced the American/African divisions people talk about, but there aren’t many Black people at school in the first place (and most of them are American anyway).
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Agree wit Jasmin
A post about the tensions and differences would be quite interesting. It is rarely addressed!
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“Maybe from here you could explore some misconceptions/tensions between Africans and Black Americans?”
I think that would be a good idea. Or a new post on the subject, if abagond is able to write it.
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King, did you miss my question (comment #35)?
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It amazes me what gets read into a yes or no question.
If you open a line of discussion, the discussion itself will define the parameters of the argument, not the question.
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Good point Hathor,
When we speak of ‘backward’ and ‘advanced’ we are essentially referring to inferiority vis-a-vis superiority, like ‘Greeks’ vis-a-vis Barbarians.
This is the 20/21 century version…
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With regard to Angola, perhaps someone can correct me here. I thought it had experienced an increase in standards of living, since oil was found in the region and especially after the long civil war involving UNITA
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Angola Successfully Fighting Poverty
http://www.afrol.com/articles/36335
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King and leaveumthinking, what other similarities do you feel there are between black Americans and Africans (immigrants or otherwise)? I would be itnerested in your responses.
Yes, I totally didn’t see that! Sorry.
I’d say that we share this: Both of our foundational, and defining problems, were caused by the colonizing powers of Western Europe.
1) Slavery
2) Colonization
Whether African, or African American, we are both subjugated peoples who were treated as sub-human by the then expanding European empires. Being a slave in the American South was different than being a colonized native, but there were still many common experiences between the two circumstances.
Secondly, we both suffer from the same problematic attempts at a fix. Both in Africa and in America, guilt, politics, and misguided compassion, have inspired solutions that emphasized throwing money at the problems rather than a more measured and studied approach which has, in many cases, simply exacerbated a bad situation into a worse one.
But aside from that, if you look at our music, our dance, our storytelling, all of these reflect their original African origins. There is a lot of them is us, even after all of these years.
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I was only speaking of Angola’s starting point after the Portuguese left, before the war there was a lot of resourcefulness despite the intentional destruction of their country. I hadn’t really kept up with what had happen since.
From the information that most Americans get, even from African blogs, it is usually depressing. Not so much if the countries are becoming more economical viable, but of the political situations. I tend to tune out quite often because I don’t really feel I can judge the situation from what I know. It is who should I believe and it is not between white and Black, it is more often between Black and Black. Those situations that are just evil, one feels helpless to do anything and there is very little one can do to support the victims.
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Cheers Hathor,
My last posts were directed towards Abagond…and the acknowledgement to your point about diverging a yes and no question, was towards you
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I recall before moving to Miami, FL that i was applying for a job in Angola (due to the fact I speak Portuguese) and it compensated quite well. I realize I’m speaking blindly (hope nobody flames me) but without knowing the intricacies of the economics on a country by country basis, I think Angola is definitely the emerging market in Africa. I’m not saying it is going to join the list of the BRIC (Brazil, Russia, India, China) countries anytime soon, but there are a lot of economic opportunities in many Africa countries. Success is inevitable.
As for the divide or lack of understanding between Black Americans and Black Africans, I think it is only normal as it is among all cultures. (even on a micro level within the U.S: urban, rural, north rural vs. south rural, East coast, West Coast, Creole, Cajun, et….) Anecdotally, whenever I meet someone from Angola or Mozambique here in the U.S, and I start speaking Portuguese with them, I find we immediately have a rapport.
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Abagond (and anyone else who I might have riled by my outburst!) I apologise for my outburst. It is not my intention to attack you.
But.
I cannot help but feel that the title (the previous one now – Thank you for changing it! It doesn’t always happen that one can say a little thing which effects positive change! Still…) and the first line of this post (barring the disclaimer) is more indicative of what you actually feel about my people. I’m one of those people that pay close attention to people’s words…well their first utterances in an unguarded state. Which is what your initial title was.
I think what really annoys me about this post is the fact that I have come to expect that a certain level of research goes to each one of your posts. I was more than a little bit miffed that the same amount of research OBVIOUSLY did not go into this one. Your disclaimer, in actuality took me straight back to your post about “White women’s tears”. How? Let me clarify (and bear with me, I tend to skip steps and jump in my thought process):
“How backward is Africa”. The insult. then the disclaimer “Well I don’t really mean to be rude or anything, I’m just trying to learn” Wide eyed innocent stare. As my Igbo people would say, MBANU! (NO!) I’m not biting.
If you really want to learn about Africa, you will not back out and shut up. Honestly, that really is not the reason for this. I would really, honestly, like to help. But that would mean shedding a lot of misconceptions you already have. Cities in Africa are every bit as urban as NYC or London. I always get a kick out of people talking about a New York minute. Try a Lagos one. The way I grew up, you don’t learn anything without getting taken down a peg or 10. No molly coddling, none of that soppy rubbish. You either want to know or you don’t.
I will look through my library and suggest some more books that should help. It’s a bit difficult now thinking about exactly what books will help give you a balanced look at what MY Africa is really like…but right off the top of my head:
The Money Order/ White Genesis – Sembene Ousmane
Mine Boy – Peter Abrahams
The Man Died – Wole Soyinka
Purple Hibiscus – Chimamanda Adichie
Half of a Yellow Sun – Chimamanda Adichie
The Black Docker (Le Docker Noir) – Sembene Ousmane
Decolonizing The Mind – Ngugi Wa Thiong’o
VOLTAIQUE – Tribal Scar and Other Stories – Sembene Ousmane
The Thing Around Your Neck – Chimamanda Adichie
To St Patrick – Eghosa Imausen
The Famished Road – Ben Okri
Once I remember some more I’ll be sure to let you know.
@King,
The main difference between Africans and Black Americans (same goes for Black British – Luckily these guys don’t even PRETEND to be African in any way shape or form) is this: Black Americans feel like they’re better than Africans simply because they live in the Western world. End of. And I speak from experience because this is exactly the way they treat me. Luckily I’m too old and too intelligent to give a toss. I do worry about my son though.
I think the most hilarious ones are those who grow out their afros and tell me they’re more “in touch with their roots” and more “African” than I am because I perm my hair. Being African is NOT just about one’s skin (although that in itself is a huge factor) nor is it about one’s hair. It is about one’s spirit. It is about the experiences inside and outside (if one has the opportunity to leave once in a while) of Africa as an African that mould you. It is a WAY OF LIFE. It is in every single thing I do and say. It is a state of mind. While I don’t expect anyone to immediately understand that I do not believe it should be belittled either.
But aside from that, if you look at our music, our dance, our storytelling, all of these reflect their original African origins. There is a lot of them is us, even after all of these years.
This is the same origin which you guys consistently deny and call “backward”.
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@ Titan
Well, my uncle told me about his days in working London, (1950s) when the black British factory workers used to be so MUCH harder on the African immigrants than the white British workers. This was just one man’s experience, but it struck me as strange, considering. I’m sure there must be similar stories here in the Americas.
You must be aware, of course, that Africans have the exact same reputation, of thinking themselves to be better than African Americans. “Arrogance” is the word I’ve heard most often. This is why I think a discourse on the subject is long overdue. You’d be surprised what things are perceived, but never intended.
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@King,
Your Uncle is quite right…unfortunately, things haven’t changed a smidgen. And yes, I know about the arrogance thing…and yes, I’ve done that a few times myself when I’m reacting to condescension from a Black Briton (or anyone else for that matter to be honest) But. It’s the same thing I hear West Indians say about Africans as well. And Africans generally look at West Indians as lazy, irresponsible, wild, promiscuous, weed heads. The same way we view Black Americans in general if I’m completely honest (And when I say “we” I mean that I’m African as well and I take the good and bad with the silly) But I agree, a discourse would help. I would like to understand the animosity that bubbles between Africans and West Indians in the UK especially. And I’d like to understand what gives Black Americans reason to believe that they are better than I am by virtue of being in the Western world alone.
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Wonderful post, Titan!
I’d be interested in your opinions about my wife’s post fo several months ago regarding this same syndrome and Black Brazilians. Several supposedly black posters there came on and called black Brazil “backwards” because it wasn’r as rich as the black U.S.
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@King
You must be aware, of course, that Africans have the exact same reputation, of thinking themselves to be better than African Americans. “Arrogance” is the word I’ve heard most often. This is why I think a discourse on the subject is long overdue. You’d be surprised what things are perceived, but never intended.
Yeah, but then again, Black Africans don’t go to the U.S. and claim that they are more American than Black Americans, do they?
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@ Titan
Haha.. Now the Jamaicans somehow get universally dumped on by everybody, for some reason… Not sure why, but I’ve seen it.
———
The story my uncle told me was that he worked in a factory in London and found that there was mild anti-black prejudice. The company didn’t mind hiring blacks, but they didn’t promote blacks to be managers or equipment operators. OK, but that’s pretty much how it was just about everywhere. So, there were some black Londoners working there; men working in the warehouse, and women working up on a loft in the Repairs Department.
So, anyway, this African girl was hire, and my Uncle noticed that at lunch time, she was sitting all by herself, and all the other black women sat across the loft from her. They were all whispering and pointing at first, then they began saying things.
“Hey, what’s that you’re eating girl, a lion sandwich?”
“Where’s you grass skirt?”
“Careful, or she’ll put a curse on you.”
They teased her unrelentingly and loudly. My uncle was eating down below on the warehouse floor with another black guy and about 5 white guys. They were all looking up at what was going on the loft. My uncle was both angry and mortified, he tried to eat his sandwich quickly so that he could get away from the ugly spectacle.
Finally the white guys turned to each other, shaking their heads,
“Look how they treat each other.”
*The African girl didn’t come to work the next day. They never saw her again.
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“Yeah, but then again, Black Africans don’t go to the U.S. and claim that they are more American than Black Americans, do they?”
Yes, sometimes they do. In some cases, they are far better educated than the average African-American, and assimilate better with Whites on the same level. In such cases, there are some who think themselves to be better at being Americans than African-Americans… and who knows, maybe they are.
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“Yes, sometimes they do. In some cases, they are far better educated than the average African-American, and assimilate better with Whites on the same level. In such cases, there are some who think themselves to be better at being Americans than African-Americans… and who knows, maybe they are.”
This is also the case with East Asian and Indian immigrants. Of course, the immigration flows from these places are highly selective of those with intelligence, ambition, ingenuity, and so forth. If the US were importing the lower orders of Accra or Lagos, you can be sure the reception would be much more icy.
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@ Titan:
Thank you very much for your list of books. If you think of any more or better ones please tell me. The Adichie and Soyinka ones will not be hard to get I know.
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Mira said:
“Nice post, but I am not sure how helpful it is. For your average joe 1950s were “ancient history”…”
You are right about that one as it turns out. It follows from the white American view of history where anything more than 30 years or so ago is Ancient History.
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Hilarious post, Abagond, even though you didn’t intend it to be funny. I needed a good laugh, and Titan had me dying.
Well, no harm done, we all learned something, even me.
Thanks Titan for setting the record straight, and you too, Abagond, for being brave and gracious.
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@Titan
“…This is the reason why I feel the term “African American” is hypocritical…Why try to identify with a continent you know absolutely nothing about? …”
That’s exactly the point. We know nothing about the Continent because of our history here in the U.S. We call ourselves “African” American because we want to feel connected in some way to our history and ancestors. To call ourselves simply “Black” Americans makes us even more disconnected.
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Titan,
Would you say your urban city where you grew up represents the whole continent? The continent which in size is twice as large as the continental United States.
Our ignorance does not have to be construed as patronizing, as we should assume your indignation is reasonable.
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I am South African, and i must say i can’t thank Titan enough for being so straight forward and clear on this issue. Not much really left for me to say. I just hope Abagond and the rest can take it upon themselves to now shed their US media influenced view on Africa, and really learn something. Coming from South Africa, i know how much my country is rubbished by international media. A couple of years ago, Oprah had a special where she come to SA. When i saw it on tv, the intro was full of Lion King music, mountains n animals. They would never show Cape Town, truelly one of the most beautiful cities in the world. Or closer to where i grew up, Durban, Africa’s playground where we some of the best surf in the world!
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I think any group has a full right to self-identity the way its members want. If black Americans want to call themselves African Americans- or even if they don’t prefer that name, but want to identify with Africa, I see no problem with that.
However, to claim you’re a bigger, truer or “better” African than those actually living in Africa- now, that’s the problem.
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My favourite Robert Kennedy quote concerns GDP per capita as a measure of men:
“[It] measures neither our wit nor our courage, neither our wisdom nor our learning, neither our compassion nor our devotion to country. It measures everything, in short, except that which makes life worthwhile; and it can tell us everything about America except whether we are proud to be Americans.”
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I think part of why West Indians and Africans in America seem to get along better with whites than American blacks do is because whites have no shared history with them. The whole ugly white-on-black history does not apply much to foreign blacks, so there is not the shame and guilt, the NEED to look down on them. Whites still look down on them, of course, because they are black and foreign, but not as much. It is like how some people can be nicer to complete strangers than to people in their own family.
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FG said:
“I think it’s safe to say those things [GDP per capita or technology] measure progress considering that people from “traditionalist” societies often seek to move countries with higher GDP and and better technology (like Natasha).”
I do not think it is that simple:
1. American television makes America look way better than it is.
2. America and Europe got rich in part by robbing other countries. That is not “progress” – unless you want to honour thieves.
3. Not all technology makes things better. Some of it makes things worse. The gun, for example, has been an utter disaster. Or take television: in the early days it helped to overthrow Jim Crow but now it strengthens racism and ignorance, like the very ignorance shown in the post! Is that progress?
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@Abagond
I think part of why West Indians and Africans in America seem to get along better with whites than American blacks do is because whites have no shared history with them.
This makes perfect sense. Only I had no idea West Indians and Africans get along better with whites, even if it’s only a little. Still, it makes PERFECT sense.
I do not think it is that simple:
1. American television makes America look way better than it is.
2. America and Europe got rich in part by robbing other countries. That is not “progress” – unless you want to honour thieves.
3. Not all technology makes things better. Some of it makes things worse. The gun, for example, has been an utter disaster. Or take television: in the early days it helped to overthrow Jim Crow but now it strengthens racism and ignorance, like the very ignorance shown in the post! Is that progress?
I second this.
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With regard to some of Titan’s comments, I sense something else at ‘play’, which has not been alluded to
and perhaps Abagond may also choose to do something on this also…
viz. what can be referred to as ‘Blacker than thou’ thinking.
In other words I am more Black/African than you because I have
*taken an English name
*I do not straighten my hair
* I wear dashikis
* I do not date outside the race
and the list goes on
This is somewhat a different point…
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With regard to
“I think part of why West Indians and Africans in America seem to get along better with whites than American blacks do is because whites have no shared history with them”
This is true, but I would also like to add a slightly different emphasis.
What you tend to see generally speaking is that those who are ‘allowed’ into a country as a group and/or ethnic race tend not be despised like the indigenes.
I am reminded of what someone told me about Austarlia. Perhaps ES, may wish to confirm or refute. Even though they are a small percentage, Blacks get treated ‘fairly well’ vis-a-vis the Aborigines.
It is something also tied into the dynamics of immigration, ethnicity/race within a given country.
If this makes any sense.
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Titan,
“How backward is Africa”. The insult. then the disclaimer “Well I don’t really mean to be rude or anything, I’m just trying to learn” Wide eyed innocent stare. As my Igbo people would say, MBANU! (NO!) I’m not biting.’
Lol! Igbo people crack me up.
“The main difference between Africans and Black Americans (same goes for Black British – Luckily these guys don’t even PRETEND to be African in any way shape or form) is this: Black Americans feel like they’re better than Africans simply because they live in the Western world. End of. And I speak from experience because this is exactly the way they treat me.”
I feel this way too. That’s one of the reasons why I don’t see all blacks as one people. Some black Americans don’t want to be identified with Africa in any way (outside of the term “African-American”).
———————
FG,
“This is also the case with East Asian and Indian immigrants. Of course, the immigration flows from these places are highly selective of those with intelligence, ambition, ingenuity, and so forth. If the US were importing the lower orders of Accra or Lagos, you can be sure the reception would be much more icy.”
I don’t know how true this is. Most of the African immigrants I know in the U.S. were farmers who lived in the villages of their countries. Some are exceptionally bright, but most are just very hardworking. The true “cream of the crop” generally don’t feel any need to leave because they are well taken care of in their respective countries. The reason why immigrants tend to be better educated is very simple: they emigrated to get an education. They didn’t come to play hopscotch.
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Val,
“…This is the reason why I feel the term “African American” is hypocritical…Why try to identify with a continent you know absolutely nothing about? …”
That’s exactly the point. We know nothing about the Continent because of our history here in the U.S. We call ourselves “African” American because we want to feel connected in some way to our history and ancestors. To call ourselves simply “Black” Americans makes us even more disconnected.
But in which ways do black Americans (sorry, like Titan, I’m not very fond of the term “African-American”) attempt to connect with Africa? I would think connecting would involve learning about its past, present, and future, its people, visiting, learning from those who are from the continent. Which I don’t see many doing. Even on this blog where most readers are slightly more informed than the average person — still I see very ignorant comments made about Africa and Africans on a regular basis.
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“I don’t know how true this is. Most of the African immigrants I know in the U.S. were farmers who lived in the villages of their countries. Some are exceptionally bright, but most are just very hardworking.”
This supports the point I was making. Immigrants are more hardworking (or ambitious or intelligent) than the average resident of the country they come from. That’s a major reason why they are well recieved. The major exception to this is Hispanic immigrants. They tend to be poor and not so well educated and don’t recieve much respect. This is because moving to the US from Mexico or El Salvador takes alot few resources than moving here from Nigeria or India, so the migration is less selective.
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FG,
“This supports the point I was making. Immigrants are more hardworking (or ambitious or intelligent) than the average resident of the country they come from. That’s a major reason why they are well recieved.”
No, that’s not what I meant. Hard work tends to be a part of the general culture; it is not an exceptional trait. If you’ve ever been to a school in western Africa, they tend to be very strict. Not doing your homework or even nodding off in class warrants a caning. Children go home from school and they have chores lined up for them. So everyone is very used to hard work.
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“No, that’s not what I meant. Hard work tends to be a part of the general culture; it is not an exceptional trait. If you’ve ever been to a school in western Africa, they tend to be very strict. Not doing your homework or even nodding off in class warrants a caning. Children go home from school and they have chores lined up for them. So everyone is very used to hard work.”
mmmhmmm
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“How backward is Africa”. The insult. then the disclaimer “Well I don’t really mean to be rude or anything, I’m just trying to learn” Wide eyed innocent stare. As my Igbo people would say, MBANU! (NO!) I’m not biting.’
No you are not biting
How indecent of your to accept no apology.
Condescension and ass kissing seems to be what you would accept. Does that speak well of an Igbo person?
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Hathor, I don’t think anyone is expecting an ass-kissing.
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FG,
In England some of those who are considered (Asian ie from the Indian sub-continent) were from the ‘upward classew,’ having their origins in places like Uganda and Kenya.
However, even with this instance there are also many ‘Asians’ that came from rural backgrounds that came to the UK also from Pakistan, India and Bangladesh respectively..
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@ Natasha
I haven’t experienced the American/African divisions people talk about
Nor have I. I won’t go so far as to state they don’t exist, but as with Afro-Asian relations and Afro-Latino relations, I think these tensions are overexaggerated.
In my experience, whenever I meet black people – no matter what part of the globe they’re from – the feeling of kinship is immediate.
Btw, Natasha, I really dig you. Come talk to Moi some time.
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@ Abagond
You said, “3. Not all technology makes things better. Some of it makes things worse. The gun, for example, has been an utter disaster. Or take television: in the early days it helped to overthrow Jim Crow but now it strengthens racism and ignorance, like the very ignorance shown in the post! Is that progress?”
I think that is part of the reason there is often more dissention (when found or overt) between Black Americans & White Americans vs many African immigrants. Generally speaking, I get along with everyone no matter what but there is “racial tension” within the Amercian society, which on occassion ‘raises its ugly head’ (on occassion) in the form of suspicion anytime two strangers – particularly Black/White Americans engage or attempt to engage in friendly conversation. (Which i find distasteful) However, when the same occurs with African immigrants, I found that ‘suspicion’ significantly less. Perhaps I am basing this on my personal experience simply because I come from such a diverse background both culturally, economically, and politically, in addition to bein mult-lingual. My experiences aren’t just based on my encounters with people from Mozambique & Angola, but all over Africa.
Thanks for doing a post on this interesting topic.
@ J –
shouldn’t you be watching Brazil? lol 🙂 Ok, now that the U.S. is out, I’m all for Brazil. Ghana is my second choice. (Now that the beat the U.S, they better go kick some arse and do Africa proud. GO GHANA!! (unless they meet Brazil) Now —– Back to the game!
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I am watching it Colorofluv
Talk about ‘shooting themselves in the foot’.
Ghana have a great chance to be the first African side to reach the semi-finals – should be a good game….btw which this game is NOT
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What, what???? What’s going on?!? I’m all for Ghana. Now what’s going on?
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Holland 2 v Brazil 1
Ghana in 3 hours time
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Oh, that’s better! I thought they started earlier or something! For a moment I thought you were discussing Ghana.
Sorry for off topic, Abagond.
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Go Ghana!!!
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FG:
I agree with J and Natasha: it is not the cream of the crop who come to America. Most people I know came from shanty towns and got here not through hard work, ambition or intelligence but through LUCK.
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“This supports the point I was making. Immigrants are more hardworking (or ambitious or intelligent) than the average resident of the country they come from.
Probably better to say that immigrants (for the most part) tend to be highly motivated. They have already taken a huge gamble just by leaving the familiar in search of opportunity. It takes quite a lot of work to immigrate from one place to another, and this is particularly true if one has to learn a new language and/or a new culture.
Suffice to say that people who come this far are not easily put off, and tend to be willing to do whatever is necessary to succeed. Of course, there are also plenty of intelligent, ambitious, and hardworking, people back at home who simply don’t wish to, or don’t have the opportunity to immigrate. However, by and large, voluntary immigrants OF ANY COUNTRY tend to be highly motivated towards success.
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Is there anybody here who doesn’t want Ghana to win the world cup? (Except Color, which is understandable)?
As for education of immigrants, I am not quite sure what that has to do with the main discussion. Immigrants sure doesn’t “prove” how backward, or rural, or modern, or educated their home country actually is.
Speaking of education of immigrants: I don’t know about Africa, but in my part of the world, being educated doesn’t mean you’ll be successful. You can be the best and still be poor and these might be reasons for considering emigration. I am not saying it’s the same in Africa, but the level of education doesn’t mean a person is satisfied with the life in her home country. On the other hand, being uneducated, or even poor, doesn’t automatically mean you’ll seek emigration. People emigrate for various reasons, and there are as many reasons for highly educated people to emigrate as it is for the most uneducated ones.
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I meant to say, immigrants sure don’t prove…
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@ Abagond & J – and to World Cup HISTORY:
GO GHANA ! ! ! (- – – – – What the hell happened Brasil? 😐 ?…)
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Is it over? I am sorry, Color.
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@ Mira –
I was for Brasil, until the lost just a a few moments ago. Now I’m all for Ghana.
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So we’re all for Ghana! 🙂
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Commiseration ColorofLuv,
As the commentators here said ‘they lost their composure and discipline’…really awful in a word.
Back to the drawing board for Brazilian football – before 2014, when they host the next tournamentl.
You will have to somehow try and tell me what Tostao has to say about this in your papers
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Mira,
“Is there anybody here who doesn’t want Ghana to win the world cup? (Except Color, which is understandable)?”
I know a few people in real life who don’t. Particularly, some buddies of my SO’s who decided to call them one very infamous racial slur the other day (when I was out of the room, of course).
The World Cup seems to be bringing about some racial/ethnic tensions.
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Maybe Abagond could do a post about this…
I am not sure about people here. Many of them do want Ghana to win (if nothing else, because their coach is Serbian), but i guess there are those who prefer other teams.
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“In my experience, whenever I meet black people – no matter what part of the globe they’re from – the feeling of kinship is immediate.
Understood. But immediate feelings of kinship and underlying cultural tensions are not the same thing. Sure, you can meet someone and genuinely like them, but that doesn’t mean that your two cultures are not going to fall into tension on some levels.
Several months ago, I was talking to a parking garage attendant. It’s been long enough that I’ve now forgotten what country he is from. My car battery had died, and I was waiting for AAA to come by and give me a proper jump. I had nothing to do, so I figured I’d find the parking attendant and shoot the breeze with him.
When I found him, he had his nose in a book—a text book, as it turns out. We got to talking and I discovered that this guy had come to the U.S. three years ago with hardly any english. Since then he’s done an incredible job of learning the language, mostly all on his own. He’s taking classes all day, he’s studying on the buss and he does the parking lot attendant job + a security guard job where he can study while working. I could go on, but cut to the chase…
This guy was telling me that he doesn’t understand African-Americans. He doesn’t understand why he can read and write on a higher level than his black co-workers, who were born in this country. He can’t understand why more black Americans don’t take advantage of the educational system and why there aren’t more in the professions.
He didn’t exactly say it, but you could see the word “lazy” was just between the lines of what he was saying, on several points. He was being polite, but you could see that there was also a lot of frustration and disgust in his observations, as well.
If I had just kept to “hello” and “how are you doing” conversations, then all I would have felt from him was the original and immediate kinship. But on a day when I dug deeper, I found that the tension was buried there.
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Oops, forgot to say that the parking lot attendant was from an African country.
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King, what country was the man from?
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Well, that’s the problem… this was like 5 months ago and now I’ve forgotten. It was a french speaking country though.
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Let’s look at some per capita income figures:
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gro_nat_inc_percap-gross-national-income-per-capita
Ghana (#146): $261.97
India (#128): $441.56
Mexico (#47): $5,178.76
Now, looking at these figures, would you guess that the average Mexican immigrant is poorer and less educated than the average Ghanaian or Indian immigrant? There’s obviously a huge selection effect operating.
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I don’t udnerstand what point those figures are supposed to be proving.
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FG, you have to adjust for proximity. Poorer people are much more able to walk North, than to cross oceans. If the US shared a common border with Ghana, the numbers might be quite different.
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“FG, you have to adjust for proximity. Poorer people are much more able to walk North, than to cross oceans. If the US shared a common border with Ghana, the numbers might be quite different.”
That’s the exact point I made above.
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Don’t those figures support the idea that immigrants from African countries tend not to be well-off financially/not the “cream of the crop”? Which is what abagond, J, and I were saying?
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Well, my argument might be slightly different than FGs. I’m not using the “cream of the crop” comparison, I’m just saying that immigrants tend to be highly motivated.
So it’s not a case of only doctors, lawyers, and accountants, immigrating to the US (although it’s easier for them to do so, both legally and financially) but a case of the most motivated people fighting all odds to find opportunities away from their homeland—poor or not.
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With regard to the issue of immigrants being highly motivated,
We need to take on board the immigration policy of the respective countries. I realise you are talking about U.S essentially. However, in Europe there is essentially freedom of movement.
In fact -as I begin to type I realise -there are so many factors to take on board I feel, before we can say ‘immigrants being highly motivated’ and place it within its right and appropriate context.
For instance in the UK being ‘highly motivated’ and hardworking means that most recent immigrants, are also being ‘exploited’ since ‘host employers’ can pay these individuals less money vis-a-vis the host.
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Actually, I said that last part wrong above. Immigrants tend to be highly motivated towards success. But people who do not immigrate may also be highly motivated for success.
The difference is that most immigrants are immigrating for just that reason (to exploit greater opportunities) non-immigrants will consist of both motivated and unmotivated people.
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Yeah, like everything you move from the simple and end with the complex.
But to put it in the most simplistic of terms, a person who is wholly unmotivated is not going to leave his home environment, unless he absolutely must.
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ha ha King…
your point/emphasis is fully understood
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ilove ini edo sent ur phone number my phone number is 001 403 487 4829
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GOAAAAAAALLLL!!!!
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Sing Sing AFRICA!!!! FAYA DE BALL!!!!!
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Ghana – 1 Uruguay – 1
Go Ghana! I’ll comment after the game.
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Suarez….goal tending…soccer sucks!
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Shootouts suck! I am convinced that soccer is a game best suited for women and children.
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I hate soccer. Be that as it may, I hope Ghana wins!
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😦
They lost.
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I’m heartbroken 😦
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For someone who has devoted a significant amount of time, words and brain power to analysing White America’s systematic and deliberate distortion of reality to suit their own racist agenda, Abagond seems to be unable to escape that very Eurocentric way of thinking.
You seem to be a knowledgeable person so why don’t see the problem with the statement “Africa is backward compared to the rest of the world”? You initial disclaimer suggests you must know exactly what you meant to express.
Like most Black Americans, despite your education, you seem to be unable to resist the Eurocentric mental conditioning and miseducation meted out during slavery and on some subconscious level believe your de-Africanization makes you somehow superior. I suspect you would be shocked to learn that it is many Africans who consider themselves superior.
If Africa is backwards how did the 12th century Universities of Timbuktu in Mali manage to produce over half a million manuscripts discussing mathematics, astrology, medicine, optics, jurisprudence and Islamic sciences? http://www.timbuktufoundation.org/manuscripts.htm Where is Black America’s medieval equivalent?
If Africa is backward how did its people manage to build the pyramids in Egypt and Sudan? FYI there are actually more pyramids in Sudan than in Egypt itself (shock horror!). Where are Black America’s 12th century churches on a par with those in Lalibela, Ethiopia, magnificently hewn out of the cliff face and into the ground – the only architectural structures of their kind anywhere in the world.
Where are Black America’s ancient mighty empires such as Mali, Ghana, Songhai and Benin? Where are their classical Ife bronze sculptures and civilizations such as the Nok Valley, which produced sophisticated pottery and artefacts as far back as 1000 BC.
If Africa is backward, why do US Census Bureau data show that immigrants from the continent outpace native born blacks, whites and even Asians – the stereotypical model minority – http://www.asian-nation.org/immigrant-stats.shtml . If Africa is backward, then why are black African men to more likely to be over educated in the UK? –
http://ideas.repec.org/a/eee/ecoedu/v28y2009i1p80-89.html
If you are educated, you know very well Africa has been raped by slavery, colonialism and neo colonialism via corrupt contemporary multinationals and World Bank and IMF policies designed to perpetuate dependency. Decent African leaders who believed in African self determination such as Patrice Lumumba and Kwame Nkrumah were got rid of by your very own CIA and western interests because they feared a powerful and united Africa. Instead the US backs tyrants like Mobutu who is consistently voted the most brutal and kleptocratic to keep Africa down.
I’ll tell you what backward is. Backward is contemporary gangsta rap culture which glorifies violence and misogyny over education and has made youths all over the world from Paris to Tokyo to Nairobi think it’s ok to call a black person Nigga/Nigger as a term of endearment. THAT is backward, not Africa.
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Looting Africa – The Economics of Exploitation by Patrick Bond
http://www.civicus.org/new/media/PatrickBond-LootingAfrica.doc
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abagond wrote:
“Most of Africa is backward compared to the rest of the world, but it is nowhere near as bad as most Americans seem to think.”
I generally agree with this statement. As you note, the continent lags on many indices of development like mortality rates, morbidity rates, economic development, corruption, crime, women’s rights etc as compared with non-African countries. Perhaps it is unfair to even make the comparison, as Ankhesen Mié implied. Perhaps whites and blacks are so totally different that any comparison will be apples to oranges. Personally, I don’t think that blacks are THAT different than other racial groups, but obviously, the differences matter quite a lot.
It is OK to judge groups of people. If we are either incapable of judging people or refuse to judge people for fear of being labelled racist, then how do we discern truth from falsehood? How are we do determine to what degree colonialism has hindered African development if we never analyze Africa’s output? I don’t think you have to apologize for the title. In fact, I commend you.
eshowoman wrote:
“If Africa is so backwards why are their immigrants to the U.S. more educated than the average white person?”
Because we are getting the best of Africa. As Jade stated (and as I have pointed out to Natasha W on various occasions) most Africans come here with solid educational credentials:
Click to access wp98102.pdf
(see table 1, pages 15-16)
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Tautology….
Personally, I don’t think that blacks are THAT different than other racial groups= but obviously, the differences matter quite a lot.
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J,
You need to get your defintions straight:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tautology
I said that blacks were different from whites, but that the differences weren’t significant enough to make comparisons between the two groups useless. The differences are quite significant though.
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“Like most Black Americans, despite your education, you seem to be unable to resist the Eurocentric mental conditioning and miseducation meted out during slavery and on some subconscious level believe your de-Africanization makes you somehow superior.
I think for the sake of productive discourse both Africans and Peoples of the diaspora should refrain from making group generalizations. Neither side should assume to know the mind of the other.
I suspect you would be shocked to learn that it is many Africans who consider themselves superior.”
Actually, I believe that I said just that above.
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King,
The data did reflect intra-racial differences. I can’t show you the accompanying chart, but here is a sketch:
The probability that women bear their children out of wedlock (1990)
For a mother of average age (29) before controlling for IQ
Whites- 12%
Blacks – 62%
Latinos – 23%
For a mother of average age and average IQ (100)
Whites – 10%
Blacks – 51%
Latinos – 17%
The fact that the white figure is 10% percentage after controlling for IQ means that only about 10% of white women with average IQs (which is indicative of middle class status) have babies out of wedlock. The figure for black women though is 51%, indicating that a slight majority of middle class black women have babies out of wedlock.
Please read “The Bell Curve”. Don’t rely on Wikipedia for your opinion. I was hoping that abagond would review the book at some point. But that is not to be, I guess.
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Thanks RR, and for the correction too.
Somehow I had misread what you had said and applied some ‘good qualities’ to you which in fact are not present.
Let me see if I can add to your burgeoning list of thoughts:
1. Blacks are less intelligent than Whites
2. Blacks are predisposed to commit crime cos of their race as opposed to Whites
3. Black males are more predisposed to be rapist
4. Blacks are predisposed to having children out of wedlock by race, what you refer to by the old term of ‘illegitimacy’
5. Black women more than any other race use the past to beat their male counterparts
and now
6. Africa is backward – again by race
Well at least you are consistent…Perhaps you would be betetr furnished on other websites, where you can have interesting debates with like-minded people, as well as being of teh same race and political ideolgy and thoughts.
Be that as it may, would you like to add anything to this list, just in case I have missed something?? Or perhaps you may want to amend the list if I have mis-represented any of your words/ideas on this blog
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J,
You have mischaracterized some of my remarks. I think the following is an accurate rephrasing of your previous remarks:
1) Whites are, on average, more intelligent than blacks.
2) Black are, on average, more impulsive than whites and consequently commit more violent crime on a per capita basis than whites.
3) Black men commit rape at significantly higher levels than whites.
4) Blacks have children out of wedlock at significantly higher rates than whites.
5) Blacks are under the delusion that white men raped black women en masse during slavery. Some black women use this supposed fact to browbeat black and white men when it suits their purposes.
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Cheers for the clarification
And what of number 6??
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And would you also like to take the time to add any more to the list, or are you choosing that moment for when Abagond raises the appropriate topic??
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Tay, I think Abagond got the point when Titan explained it to him. You don’t have to turn this into a competition between black Americans and Africans..
BTW, I share your opinion about American gangster/Hip-Hop culture.
My fear for the children of immigrant blacks is that they’ll get caught up in Hop-ho[ culture and start resenting education and promoting violence.
In parts of the Caribbean and Africa, many poor youths have adapted this hip-hop culture/lifestyle, and the consequences are destructive.
2. This is the way many non-American blacks, including Caribbean blacks feel about Black Americans. We believe that black Americans SHOULD be doing better. It’s mind boggling why so many have such poor grasp of the English language and don’t seem to take advantage of the system.
The reason non-American blacks do better than American blacks is because non-American blacks have higher self-esteem than American blacks, aren’t as obsessed with whites as American blacks, and are less easily deterred from their goals/dreams than American blacks.
This guy was telling me that he doesn’t understand African-Americans. He doesn’t understand why he can read and write on a higher level than his black co-workers, who were born in this country. He can’t understand why more black Americans don’t take advantage of the educational system and why there aren’t more in the professions.
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@Ank Mié
In my experience, whenever I meet black people – no matter what part of the globe they’re from – the feeling of kinship is immediate.
As long as they speak your language and go along with your dogmas, I`m sure that`s true.
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Mel,
It is highly debatable whether self-esteem is positively correlated with achievement. One could say a lot about American Negro youth, but I don’t think it is reasonable to say they lack self-esteem. And, if self-esteem is positively correlated with achievement and immigrant blacks have more of it than American blacks, why aren’t the home countries of these immigrants intellectual powerhouses instead of…ya know….underdeveloped. I mean, if black immigrants have so much energy, why weren’t they able to harness that energy in their home countries, thus negating the need to immigrate in the first place.
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RR,
With regard to point 5
You forgot to mention a ‘comparator. From what I can remember you said Black women more than any other ‘races’ are ‘unique’ in this respect vis-a-vis Black men.
With regard to point 6.
Please allow me to answer for you,
6. Africa is ‘backward’ because Blacks ON AVERAGE are less intelligent than Whites GLOBALLY. And the raison d’etre following your logic must be due to ‘race’ consideration.
So to conclude I do not think I ‘mis-characterise’ you. Unfortunately you did this for yourself. Adding the words ‘ON AVERAGE’ has not taken away or minimised what I said in essence represented your position.
Cheers again for the clarification
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RR, you’re still missing what I’m saying.
The study (which comes from an almost universally criticized source) fails to distribute the positive correlation of incidents across the populations in question, in any meaningful way.
Contrary to your belief, an average IQ does NOT infer middle class standing, any more than having a high IQ suggests that you will inherit a gold mine.
There is absolutely nothing in the figures, that you have presented above, that backs your previous claim that the increase in illegitimate births among Whites is tied to the White lower class.
In fact, if an average IQ was indeed indicative of middle class status, as you suggest, then 10% of the total 12% illegitimate births among White women were from those with an average IQ of 100 (or what you would call middle class) So why would you say that the spike in illegitimate births among Whites should be blamed on the lower class?
Does the hypocrisy of your inconsistency know no bounds, sir?
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With regard to:
“This is the way many non-American blacks, including Caribbean blacks feel about Black Americans. We believe that black Americans SHOULD be doing better.”
Again I am reminded of Amy J. Garvey’s illustration, when she suggested that until the arrival of Marcus Garvey, Blacks all over the world lacked ‘race pride’ etc and out of this. You found Africans ‘hating’ Africans, Africans hating West Indians, West Indians hating West Indians, West Indians hating Africans. African Americans hating West Indians and also Africans, and any other permutations you can think off.
What she failed to mention in a sort of paradoxical way was that none of this ‘internalised self-hate’ did not manifest itself as a ‘hate for Whites’.
This is the nature of ‘oppression’
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RR said:
“I don’t think you have to apologize for the title. In fact, I commend you.”
RR agreeing with me is generally a bad sign!
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Tay:
I know about the IMF, Timbuktu, Mobutu and all of that. Maybe not as much as I should, but it is not news to me. I also knew most of the things that Titan pointed out, like that Africa has big cities and plenty of people who speak perfect English.
I limit my posts to 500 words, so I have to stay on topic – it is hard enough and heartbreaking enough all the stuff I have to cut out even when I do stay on topic.
This post asks “Is Africa backward?” and if you read the post you will see it answers that question only for 2010. It is not about 1300 or 2100 or even 1950.
Further it is not asking why but only if and how much. And it even admits that its conclusions are only “quick and dirty” (a first rough estimate).
On the other hand, to be fair, I must admit that if I wrote the same sort of post about blacks in America or the Caribbean it is unlikely I would have used the word “backward” nor would I have ended it without some parting shots about the causes so as not to give aid and comfort to racists.
So all in all I agree most with Jasmin: the trouble with the post is that it did not go far enough – it just left “Africa is backward” hanging in the air, letting every African reader think I side with all the racist jerks who have said the very same thing.
While “backward” is too loaded of a word here, one that misleads, I think you, Titan and I all agree that Africa was screwed up by white powers, CONTINUES to be screwed up by them (and lately by the Chinese too). That is what the post is pointing to by way of the life expectancy numbers. Black Americans have low numbers too and it points something very serious, not something that should be talked away.
So whereas earlier I thought it was my ignorance that was mainly at fault, now I think it is more my rhetoric. Not to say that there is much I still need to learn about Africa. But I think our points of view are not as far apart as this post would make it seem.
Guy White, a white racist blogger, could have pretty much written this post himself. The fact that RR agrees with it shows that. And if I had read this post on his blog I would have been up in arms. But that is because I know that he would draw racist conclusions from it.
I left unstated what conclusions I draw from it, but they are not racist ones. I know better than that. I know it is not apparent in this post, but I think it is apparent from my other posts that I do not think like that.
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RR:
It is understandable that Africans would feel the need to bash Black Americans after reading this post, but what is your excuse?
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This was obvious to me, for what it matters.
I’m also under the impression that most of the Africans who posted here and were offended by the “backward” word are following Eurasasian Sensation’s advice to give you the benefit of the doubt.
Titan stated his point and you made it clear that you understood his concerns. So the incident should be considered closed.
Both the timing and the content of Tay’s post make me suspect an undercover drapto attempt at flaming the topic.
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@Mel
“The reason non-American blacks do better than American blacks is because non-American blacks have higher self-esteem than American blacks, aren’t as obsessed with whites as American blacks, and are less easily deterred from their goals/dreams than American blacks.”
I agree with this point – American blacks have been conditioned with their inferiority by whites for centuries and the effects of that on self esteem can be seen in 2010 –
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/05/18/doll.study.parents/index.html
Whereas those from Africa know their history prior to slavery and escaped all the conditioning through wilful American miseducation so they do not have the same inferiority complexes.
This article explains it alot better than I could and demonstrates the link between self esteem and achievement – http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/133121
And my post wasn’t meant to bash American blacks (my mom is black American) but to merely state the facts. When blacks allow the mental conditioning to succeed slave massahs must be sniggering in their graves happy that their plans are working better than they thought. And when you look at the rate of black-on-black violence in the states, it would seem that’s the case.
Black America is contributed significantly to global popular culture but still has its pathologies. Similarly Africa has contributed substantially to world history (much of which has been wilfully obscured) but it too has its pathologies.
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I suspect Titan is a flame thrower, too. I did not see This post before it was modified, but it did seem like huge misconceptions were being read into this post.
At a point in time in the 20th century if someone had asked if Mississippi was a backward state, the answer would have been a resounding YES and mostly from people who lived there. There would have been no one speaking of how beautiful the beaches, or the Delta landscapes, the great universities, the diversity of the flora, but most would think of the lack of industry, running water and sewers, electricity, quality of schools, literacy and to many Black people, the government which allowed the most virulent form of terrorism to exist. No one would have thought that is was because the residents were intrinsically difference from the rest of the US.
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Hathor,
You make a good point referencing Mississippi. It was an incredible backwater on virtually every standard of measure. Mississippi has made great strides over the last 150 years. Its crime rate is lower than average despite being almost 40% black.
abagond,
I am not bashing Africans. As you know, I believe we should face issues forthrightly and stop blaming the White Man for problems he has nothing to do with. As I have stated before, you and many others on this blog give whites too much credit. You believe that if the white man would only put his mind to it, he could eliminate the disparities in achievement, crime, illegitimacy etc. between the races. You believe in the power and beneficence of White Power. I do not. This is essentially what separates our views. The state of black Africa (and black America) must be viewed objectively if black Africa is to progress. Real problems can’t be ignored just because it makes Africans, and by extension Negro Americans, look bad.
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Tay wrote:
Whereas those from Africa know their history prior to slavery and escaped all the conditioning through wilful American miseducation so they do not have the same inferiority complexes.
But then, why is sub-Saharan Africa such a mess? Why can’t black Africans get their act together and harness the resources of the continent. What is black Africa’s excuse? Is it colonialism? Many Asian countries were also colonized by Europeans, but are now thriving (or WERE thriving). Why do black Africans allow the Chinese to rape their countries?
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A suggested topic: “Black American privilege and Africa” or “Africa in the black American imagination”
I don’t think black Americans realize the extent of their privilege and how off-putting it is to African immigrants or 1st generation Africans (like myself). Here are some examples:
1. dashikis and kente cloth (I’m not sure where that comes from – could someone tell me?)
2. representations of the entire continent on medallions and t-shirts (most of my family would rather claim their own tribe, and don’t care about the rest of the country, much less the continent)
3. all this talk about “kings” and “queens”, girls referring to themselves as an “African princess” (seriously, are we all royalty?)
4. AFRICAN FEATURES — this is seriously the most hypocritical BS I’ve ever heard and I am seriously sick of hearing this from black Americans. One of the many stereotypes we work to overcome in America is that of the “Sambo” caricature — we argue that black people have diverse features, skin colors, hair textures, etc.
But then this same “Sambo” stereotype is then applied to West Africans. WTF? I have cousins with different noses, mouths, very dark in complexion, very light…and you really don’t need people of European descent to create this kind of diversity.
I’m not going to bother posting family photos but believe me when I say this — It should be intuitive — it should just be understood — that dark-skinned people are capable of producing light-skinned offspring, because if they couldn’t –
CAUCASIANS WOULDN’T EXIST.
Why am I always this riled up? Because even the most well-meaning black Americans are guilty of using these stereotypes about Africa in the service of their own cause — I’ve heard educated people — professors, civil rights leaders, activists — try and sell people on this overcompensatory (I don’t care if it’s not a word) fantasy of African kingdoms and royalty and whatnot. Yes there were aristocracies — that you (and I!) likely weren’t a part of. And these “pan-African” ideas are a Western invention — most Nigerians I know (who are still on the continent) can’t stand Ghanaians. And I’ve Yorubans say some pretty racist things about Bantu people.
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*I’ve HEARD Yorubans say…
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VV,
Now whose being stereotypical?
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King,
IQ is a very good predictor of socio-economic status. In fact, there isn’t a better one. You may not believe that IQ tests measure intelligence, but whatever IQ tests measure correlates positively with socio-economic status. So IQ is a pretty good gauge of class. Please read “The Bell Curve”.
You wrote:
In fact, if an average IQ was indeed indicative of middle class status, as you suggest, then 10% of the total 12% illegitimate births among White women were from those with an average IQ of 100 (or what you would call middle class) So why would you say that the spike in illegitimate births among Whites should be blamed on the lower class?
You completely misunderstood the summary of the charts I gave. The first chart listed the percentage of 29 yo white women who had children out of wedlock (12%). The second chart listed the percentage of 29 yo white women with an IQ of 100 who had children out of wedlock (10%). Note the difference between the charts. The first chart pertains to all 29 yo white women. The second chart pertains only to 29 yo white women with an IQ of 100. This is significantly less that 50% of the total number of 29 yo white women in the sample.
The percentages in the charts do not reflect the explosion in out-of-wedlock births among white women because the data only includes births between the mid-1970s to 1990s.
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Oooh! I second the “Black American Priviledge” topic. When Ana Paula brought it up, she was roundly chastized for being either a “self-hating black woman” (as if being black meant that she necessarily had to identify with the black USA) or a “backwards and envious black Brazilian”.
While racism does trump imperial priviledge, it’s no use pretending that one’s positioning in the global economy and national status system makes no difference at all to one’s life chances and world view.
This is what I find incredibly annoying about Ank Mié’s constant peans to “brotherhood”. It’s easy to mouth that sort of sentiment when one is middle-class and living in the first world and one thus does not HAVE to learn anything at all about the rest of humanity – or only learn those little bits that interest oneself.
This sort of attitude is unfrotunately rampant among black metropolitan anglos and, in my mind, it’s rather similar to the white liberal cry of “Can’t we all just get along with one another? Why do we have to obsess on race?”
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@RR
Once again, RR brings up “The Bell Curve” as if it were a bible instead of highly controversial and deeply debunked book.
Just to begin with, “The Bell Curve” isn’t even peer-reviewed science: it is politically-motivated garbage. To add insult to injury, RR doesn’t even limit himself to what the Bell Curve more-or-less manages to show, but freely extrapolates from its already-compromised data.
For those of you who would like to begin to understand some of the issues in “The Bell Curve”, I suggest Gould’s “The Mismeasure on Man”.
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In fact, Herrnstein deliberately eschewed any peer review prior to publishing. Of course, it took years for his peers in the field of psychology/sociology to review and respond to Herrnstein’s theories. But when they did respond, the response was almost universally, a refutation of the work. However, this, of course, came too late to have put a dent into Herrnstein’s initial book sales.
Presenting a new scientific theory, in book form, without having first sought peer review and critique, is almost unprecedented in the realm of serious science academia.
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RR:
I was going to do a post on the “The Bell Curve” (1994), but after seeing how long it was and knowing that it has already been thoroughly debunked elsewhere, it does not seem worth my time, though it might make sense to do posts on certain parts of it.
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RR said:
“why is sub-Saharan Africa such a mess?”
What type of mess?
RR said:
“Why can’t black Africans get their act together and harness the resources of the continent.”
They are! They are selling their resources to China!
RR said:
“What is black Africa’s excuse? Is it colonialism? Many Asian countries were also colonized by Europeans, but are now thriving (or WERE thriving).”
All I can think of that are “thriving” is The Middle East (except Yemen), India, Malaysia and Indonesia (only just!) The rest, not even close!
RR said:
“Why do black Africans allow the Chinese to rape their countries?”
Beats me, then again why do a lot of countries let big multi national companies rape them as well!?
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Right, like America, which still does not have universal healthcare while BP is destroying the Gulf.
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@ Hathor:
Good point about Mississippi. Thank you.
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“What is black Africa’s excuse? Is it colonialism? Many Asian countries were also colonized by Europeans, but are now thriving (or WERE thriving).
You hear this argument all the time, both about Africa and African America. Why haven’t you recovered from your rape yet? I know someone else who got raped, and they’re doing fine now. What’s taking you so long to get over it?
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Thaddeus, King, abagond,
The book was never intended to be a scientific treaty. It was a book written for laymen. Gould’s “Mismeasure of Man” wasn’t peer reviewed before publication either. We also have to remember that Gould was a paleontologist not a psychologist. “The Mismeasure of Man” was savaged by psychologists, but beloved by journalists and left wing pundits.
It is clear to me that your refusal to even read, much less discuss, the contents of “The Bell Curve” has everything to do with your inability to entertain ideas that might run counter to your established notions of racism. You people are essentially afraid, which I can understand. The problem is that your fear is not going to do anything for black people. Refusing to confront our fears just prevents us from seeing our problems clearly. Right now, you are relying on others to give you your opinion regarding the contents of “The Bell Curve”. This is a lazy and cowardly approach. Nothing in “The Bell Curve’ is new. It is basically a summary of the more significant work done in psychometrics. The book, as I explained to Thaddeus on several occasions, has NOT be refuted. It is a controversial book precisely because it has not been refuted. There are those who have found reasonable fault with the book regarding details, but the major themes of the book have not been refuted. These themes are:
1) IQ is a very strong predictor of life outcomes.
2) Intelligence is influenced by genetics and environment.
3) Intelligence is not uniformly distributed among ethnic/racial groups.
4) The high IQ overclass games the system at the expense of the rest of us.
I am very surprised at you abagond. You seem to be grasping for truth in your own way. But you have completely buckled here. This business about the book being too long or being debunked is ridiculous. “The Bell Curve” was probably THE most important book to be published in the latter half of the 20th century. Since racial issues are of burning interest to you, you owe it to yourself and your readers to give it a fair hearing. At least let Thad have a whack at it.
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Vindicator,
What type of mess is Africa in?
The mess that leads to low life expectancy, high mortality rates, high morbidity rates, low production rates and high rates of corruption. That type of mess.
You wrote:
They are! They are selling their resources to China!
They are selling there resources to China for a pittance. On top of it, the Chinese aren’t even hiring black Africans to do the work. Black Africans are making the same mistake they made when they sold slaves to Arabs and Europeans. centuries ago. They are wasting vital resources and they don’t seem to be savvy enough to realize it.
All I can think of that are “thriving” is The Middle East (except Yemen), India, Malaysia and Indonesia (only just!) The rest, not even close!
Then you haven’t been thinking very hard. What of China, Taiwan and South Korea? Can you think of even one black ruled country that is on par economically with Viet Nam?
Beats me, then again why do a lot of countries let big multi national companies rape them as well!?
Your point is well taken, although many other countries have human resources with which to counteract the plundering of multinationals. Africa doesn’t.
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With regard to:
“And these “pan-African” ideas are a Western invention — = Most Nigerians I know (who are still on the continent) can’t stand Ghanaians”.
Unfortunately one important point has been overlooked viz. Nigeria was created by Britain, and even to this day it carries the name given to it by the Englishwoman Lady Lugard, and so within the context of the aforesaisd even Nigeria is a ‘Western invention’
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I
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ha ha. ..Not sure what happened there.
I was about to say…
I came across a very interesting article in the UK press. I have never heard this type of talk before but it is still kind of relevant to this topic:
[Headline: ] Progress – but not as West knows it
…Progress in Afghanistan is not something that can be physically measured and is not about making sure your body count is less than the enemy’s as in a conventional war. Progress there is about improving the day-to-day lives of ordinary Afghans according to Major Nick french…’We have got to show (them) we can give you a a better quality of life than they (the Taliban) can, we can protect you, give you water, schools and power so you can go about your business and give you a decent way of life’, said Maj French…
Metro, 2 July 2010
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Some time ago I saw an interesting documentary about the tuareg tribe, the ones who live in Sahara and still ride the camels etc. Well, some of the guys in the documentary had been studying in Paris etc. Still they got back home and went to live like they have lived at least 2000 years. They have cars, watches, satelite phones, solar panels and such but those guys, I think one could call them traditionalists, like their way of life. One of them said that he wants to be free and in Sahara you can.
In another document there were number of young black politicians and researchers, black africans, who all put the blame on the local dictators, leaders and politicians. Some of those have had a international backing, some not, but they have raped their countries and nations well and truly.
Think about Nigeria. It is one of the richest countries in the world: oil and the rest. But the generals and leaders who have run the country have stolen it blind. One of them, I forgot which one, had few hunder million dollars in western banks when he finally was ousted. It was estimated that his goverment had stolen perhaps two billion dollars from the state. No wonder that nothing gets done.
Another example is Zimbabwe where one party and goverment have run the bread basket of Africa into a real fine mess. The distribution of lands to so-called war veterans, most of whom are too young to have ever taken part for the fight in civil war and war of independece, broke the productive acriculture to small family vegetable gardens. The tobacco industry which thrived ten years agi has been run down also. By whom?
I don’t think this is a race issue at all. It is an issue of political culture. As long as the africans treat their own as something to rob and steal, nothing will change.
And yes, I have been visiting Africa too.
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1) IQ is a very strong predictor of life outcomes.
A somewhat above average IQ is preferable, in most cases to having a somewhat below average IQ, but that’s about it.
If you’re talking about getting wealthy, then tenacity, initiative, tireless optimism, hard work, and people skills, are all much better indicators of success than are a very high intelligence.
Being smart can land you good jobs, but there are so many other factors at work that alone, it is hardly a predictor of success. It is one of many factors, and not even the most important one.
2) Intelligence is influenced by genetics and environment.
Of course it is, as well as by personal initiative and hard work. Intelligence is a muscle that must be exercised in order to grow. It’s not a set genetic potential.
3) Intelligence is not uniformly distributed among ethnic/racial groups.
There is no way that you could know this.
4) The high IQ overclass games the system at the expense of the rest of us.
IQs don’t run the world, they barely run the Universities. The “overclass” is not made up of eggheads. There are many ways to gain power, and most of them don’t have very high intelligence as a prerequisite.
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RR said:
“The mess that leads to low life expectancy, high mortality rates, high morbidity rates, low production rates and high rates of corruption. That type of mess.”
Point taken except for the corruption part!
RR said:
“They are selling there resources to China for a pittance. On top of it, the Chinese aren’t even hiring black Africans to do the work. Black Africans are making the same mistake they made when they sold slaves to Arabs and Europeans. centuries ago. They are wasting vital resources and they don’t seem to be savvy enough to realize it.”
Welcome to the global free market. What you’ve said is not uncommon throughout the world!
RR said:
“Then you haven’t been thinking very hard. What of China, Taiwan and South Korea? Can you think of even one black ruled country that is on par economically with Viet Nam?”
What of them! Last time I checked China, Taiwan and South Korea were never colonised by Europeans!
RR said:
Your point is well taken, although many other countries have human resources with which to counteract the plundering of multinationals. Africa doesn’t.
Bollocks! If 1 billion people don’t classify as human resources then I don’t know what does!
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RR,
Answer these questions.
Was the same test used for every person?
Since there are no racially pure people in the US and one twelfth of the white population has one or more African ancestors. How was that measured in order to group the sample?
How do you know that it was an enough people tested for a statistical sample in order to plot the curve to begin with and to get any mathematical accuracy in the data analysis?
How many times were new samples taken to confirm the results of the first study?
I believe in some studies, whites in Appalachia have test as blacks in the inner city. If intelligence is genetic why would this be, since the whites in Appalachia are the same group that don’t live in the mountains? You can’t say that it would be due to close intermarriage, because that would re-enforce any genetic factors; that would make them more intelligent. They would also be plague with more genetic diseases, though.
Since when is psychometrics is science? Because that is what the Bell Curve is being presented as; not as a theory, but fact. To test a theory, it takes more than a hunch and your examples. Darwin’s theory of evolution spans over millions of years of fossil research and the analysis of DNA. So far there has been no racial gene or intelligence gene found. The genes for color and texture of hair, color of skin, and various physical shapes of noses, ears, eyes, etc. are present in all populations. This make man adaptable, which is beneficial to his survival.
You sir, are placing Black people outside of humanity, by supporting and thinking The Bell Curve is the definitive book of the last half of the 20th century.
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A friendly piece of advice to all the white trolls willing to pose as Africans on black blogs: do some research. Google is your friend.
That VV dude is so caricatural that it’s actually funny.
Dashikis (known under different names depending of the language) are very common clothing in all Africa, though it’s most common in West Africa where it originated. You would know this if you ever had set foot on the continent or, say, met an actual African.
Kente is the traditional cloth of the Akan people. Seriously, man, you don’t even need to be African to know that.
Yeah, sure thing.
What is their tribe, by the way? Just curious.
FYO tribalism, even in its most extreme, hateful expression, does not prevent identification to our nation or our continent. This explains why one can be proud of his Yoruba roots AND his Nigerian nationality AND his “africaness” (does this word exist?).
That “tribe to the exclusion of everything else” bs is a western cliché. Unfortunately for us, tribalism is much more complex than you think.
By the way, if we African do not identify to our continent, how do you explain the negative reactions to Abagond’s article? The title is “Is Africa backward?”, not “Is Angola/Nigeria/…”
And then again, if you had ever set foot on the continent, you would know that the representation of the continent on clothing, medallions, etc… is even more common here than in America. If you have any doubt about it, just try Google Image.
People call themselves the way they want. If you have a problem with that, do not, I mean DO NOT follow this link:
Yet, panafricanism is thriving in Africa. And you’re trying to make us believe that you’re the only African who is not aware of this fact??
Alright, it’s official now: the trolls have eventually noticed this thread.
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What of them! Last time I checked China, Taiwan and South Korea were never colonised by Europeans!
True. China was never truly colonized by Britain or any other European power. There were spheres of influence, and certain cities were pretty much colonized, but never the vast majority of the country.
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“What is black Africa’s excuse? Is it colonialism? Many Asian countries were also colonized by Europeans, but are now thriving (or WERE thriving).
King: “You hear this argument all the time, both about Africa and African America. Why haven’t you recovered from your rape yet? I know someone else who got raped, and they’re doing fine now. What’s taking you so long to get over it?”
—
Touché.
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Hathor,
believe in some studies, whites in Appalachia have test as blacks in the inner city. If intelligence is genetic why would this be, since the whites in Appalachia are the same group that don’t live in the mountains?
Lower class whites test about as well has middle and upper class blacks. There isn’t a study known to me that has shown otherwise.
Psychometrics was invented by Francis Galton in 1869, so it has been around for a minute. I don’t think talking plainly about psychometrics places blacks outside the realm of humanity. That doesn’t make sense to me. Does talking about Asian lack of achievement in basketall place Asian outsife the realm of humanity? Intelligence is just another human attribute. Talking about differences in height, color, physique or other human attributes among humans is not dehumanizing. You sound like you are catching abagond’s disease.
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Only thing I can say about IQ tests is this: they tested us in the army (in Finland national service is mandatory) and all the guys I know just played it like a big joke. The officers who ran the tests were quite uppset and I have no idea where the results went. I guess somebody looked at them as a real indicator of our (white) lack of intelligence. As a result of our goofing their big tests, we got some extra attention from the drill instructors.
This all goes back to the race issue. Are there different races or are we just humans with different looks? For me the answer is clear.
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For what it’s worth, Dahoman X is the only one here commenting from Africa. Apart from Thad in Rio everyone else is commenting from North America or Europe (mainly America and Britain).
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RR,
You didn’t answer any of my questions.
I see you live in the Dinosaurs’ world of We Say So News.
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All this stuff about IQ and American blacks is off topic. I have a separate post for that:
I will delete any further comments on this thread on the matter.
@ RR and Thad
If either of you, or both, want to do a guest post on “The Bell Curve”, either for or against, I am game. My length requirement is 500 words (give or take 20). You both know where to email me.
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i don’t think africa is anymore backward than american, but i’ll tell you for sure when I travel to more african countries
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There are some ridiculous misconceptions on here that I’m not even sure where to start.
First off, Titan is female (lol) A Nigerian woman married to a Nigerian man living in the UK with a second generation immigrant little boy. Who happens to be born American.
Secondly, I’m no flame thrower..I have a number of names for Hathor, but I shall be civil. Still I must explain. I think I’m tired of all the immigrant bashing (especially now the conservatives are in) everywhere I seem to turn. NO one can be bothered to research anything to do with my continent before spewing a lot of things that really aren’t true. Example? The English seem to think that immigrants are stealing their jobs. And yet they don’t realise that the Home Office DEMANDS that every employer satisfies what is known as the RESIDENT LABOUR MARKET TEST. IN other words, when applications are made, the UK national first and foremost is given the job if he is even SLIGHTLY qualified for the job. And if no UK national is at all qualified, then they look at European Union Nationals. And if no EU national that applied qualifies, the rest are now assessed. That would be me. I have three degrees, 3 professional qualifications with 5 years UK experience in my field, and a total of just over 10 years working experience. And I have no job. Yet I’m supposed to be stealing British jobs. The same ones that would rather be on the dole than get up and work. I am also not entitled to any benefits what so ever. I don’t even get a tax rebate for having a child. All I get is free healthcare so I can continue working and paying taxes. SO yeah. I’m more than a little bit pissed.
I’m sorry, seems like I didn’t reply a number of people. I shall begin to do so directly (If I’ve let anyone out PLEASE redirect me lol!):
@King, that was sad, regarding what your Uncle witnessed…If I were that woman I would come back and keep doing my job and excel at it just to rub their faces in it. It’s just the way I function I guess.
@Val, I don’t think one could POSSIBLY feel more connected to a people by simply calling themselves the name of said people…I’m sure a lot more is required. It really is unfortunate but the truth is, I really don’t see African Americans as “African” at all. They’re black. And I reiterate, that really is, as far as I’m concerned, all we have in common.
@Hathor, I never said that where I grew up represents the whole of Africa. But for GOD’S sake, the percentage of Africa that is like that is much too large to be continually ignored by the western media.
@Mira, I’m a realist. To claim to belong to a group or identify with a group of people that you have nothing in common with is ridiculous. I have a friend who is from Ivory Coast and the only time she ever set foot outside her country was to come to Britain. And yet she will swear blind that she’s French!!! AND she brings her children up accordingly! It beggars belief that someone who has no idea what it is to be African calls himself that!
@Natasha W, believe me the Igbos are a wonderful people LOL!!! And if a person doesn’t want anything to do with Africans then for GOD’S sake why would said person want anyone to call them such? I honestly cannot understand this. And it doesn’t seem like anyone has explained this ludicrous phenomenon yet.
@Hathor, I beg your pardon? Indecent? So because I do not believe an apology is sincere I am indecent? Where on EARTH do you come from? Because one says SORRY I should immediately accept whether I feel it is sincere or not? I thank GOD I’m African. Because generally we say what we feel and let you know where we think you’re wrong. And let you know where we stand. He changed the title. And I thanked him for it. The line underneath the disclaimer still says my continent is “backward” a term which most on here agree is derogatory. I do not do condescension and ass kissing. I do the truth. Period. And since you do not have a civil tongue in your head I will thank you to desist from ever referring to me again.
@Tay, thank you for being more clearheaded than I am. I would also ask you to kindly explain to Hathor exactly why I did not accept Abagond’s apology like the good little girl I am.
@VV,
1 They are not “Yorubans” they are “Yorubas” (actually I should say “we” since I’m married to one.)
2 We call those “Dansiki” and our Northerners wear the cloth although I get the feeling that it can be found all over the continent. Kente is Ghanian as far as I know.
3 I agree that Africans IN Africa care only about their own tribe BUT the instant they’re outside the continent, I assure you, it changes. In fact, I do not mean to offend but I don’t think I totally believe that you’re a first generation African immigrant. Every single African immigrant immediately identifies with other Africans. Once we hear on the news that a fellow African has done well, we are all proud. When we hear on the news that one has done wrong we all feel embarrassed. That you do not know or have never felt this makes be call your claim into question.
4 Lastly, Nigerians I assure you do NOT despise Ghanians. That’s a fact. In fact, we don’t despise ANY African country at all. This is because we generally feel we’re better than all other Africans. And that there’s the top and tail of it, as ridiculous as it may sound.
@Dahoman X, I’m sorry, you’re wrong and I REALLY mean I’m sorry. I wish it were otherwise but Nigerians IN Nigeria generally are suspicious of people of other Nigerian tribes. I know people to this day who call themselves Igbos FIRST and not necessarily Nigerians. Unfortunately, tribalism THRIVES in my country. Heck my whole family boycotted my wedding because I married a Yoruba man…this was 2 years ago. I hate to admit it, but one MUST take the good with the bad. And yet, we must remember that it was the white man who threw us together as he saw fit. And STILL we’re having problems with that. I’m all for secession…but that won’t happen.
Africa hasn’t moved on from her rape because she is STILL BEING RAPED. How easy do you think it would be to go against the western world who needs you in the gutter so they can continually take what they can from you? Other developed countries and continents were able to develop because all they had to deal with was the corruption of their own people…we are struggling with a lot more. Corrupt Africans (it’s a human thing) AND a developed world that gains from your corruption and as such, with money, power and media, continues to back AND fuel this corruption for it’s own gains. Where do we flipping start? It was in my own backyard that Shell provided our government with the ammunition and helicopters they used to suppress the Ogoni 5 and the Ogoni people of the Niger Delta in general. And that is just the tip of the iceberg.
A number of times, I have wondered whether it would not be better to have all western “interests” removed from Africa. Don’t give us handouts. Just leave us the hell alone. Because we have what the developed world needs. SO at least we will be able to deal with you ON OUR OWN TERMS. But they’re too afraid of that. It’s the same reason why when the Brits were giving us “independence” they handed power over to the Hausas in the North. The very same people who actually told the Englishmen that they didn’t want independence yet. Let’s not forget that the Brits carved out Nigeria and threw together groups that did not know or have anything to do with each other. The Southerners were agitating for independence and unfortunately, when the Englishman began to concede was when oil was discovered. SO of COURSE they put the Hausas in charge. The only way their interests would continue to be served no? Till today they STILL refer to the Northerners as the “ruling class of Nigeria” the Kingmakers have spoken. And everyone KNOWS that the Kingmakers call the shots.
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@ abagond..
I can see why one would take offense to this post, but overall, I do not see it as a bad post because I understand your writing style and you have also admitted that you do have stereotypical thinking in reference to Africa–which is common–there are many stereotypical ideas of black Americans and Americans in general that is common for some Africans as well. It’s important to note that this miscommunication and these stereotypical views go both ways for many reasons but putting each other down in an attempt to lift someone up is not going do anything but maintain ignorance. Open communication, a willingness to learn, and education is key on both sides of the equation.
I suggested, some time ago, that you do a post on tension bw Africans/African Americans bc it defiantly exist, but I see this post unintentionally started the conversation already. I completely agree that it would only help maintain what you already think by not discussing it so I am glad that you did do post on Africa if for no other reason than for that.. so PLEASE don’t scare away from it bc you are getting such negativity—it’s bound to happen.
I also did not know you were put down for talking about something with Africa before, which is unfair and not very sensible bc it is only to protect someone’s vain pride and/or sustain ignorance with both parties, which, at the end of the day, doesn’t help the situation at hand, since it’s at the expense of knowledge and understanding.
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Natasha said
“I don’t know how true this is. Most of the African immigrants I know in the U.S. were farmers who lived in the villages of their countries. Some are exceptionally bright, but most are just very hardworking. The true “cream of the crop” generally don’t feel any need to leave because they are well taken care of in their respective countries.”
I disagree. Most of the people I know are what you would call the “cream of the crop” They do in fact choose to study outside Nigeria because they can afford it. The arrogance is not because they think they’re better than African Americans (for some it might be) Its just “rich kid’s” arrogance. They leave their “mini mansions” where they have maids and drivers at their beck and call and live in apartments and ride trains and buses. They might not be living in their mini mansions anymore but the arrogance is still there.
Titan Very true about the tribalism thing. I’m supposedly the “aboki” ruining Nigeria and blowing up planes.
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@NG, Spot on with the ‘rich kid’ thing. And I’m the Calabar woman who will steal people’s husbands lol!
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I beg your pardon? Indecent? So because I do not believe an apology is sincere I am indecent? Where on EARTH do you come from? Because one says SORRY I should immediately accept whether I feel it is sincere or not?
I believe Abagond’s apology is as sincere as one can get over the internet. Why would he go out of his way to fake an apology to you? Do you really think you’re that special?
@ Abagond I second the post on the tension between African Americans and Africans. I have not experienced this tension irl. Africans that Ive met or the few I know personally (East Africans) are good people, very warm and welcoming.
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I feel that the title question maybe akin to asking, “Are blacks ‘truly’ inferior?’ There is an inherent bias and prejudice in the question. Of course, when I read the sentence, as a human of African descent, and African American, I actually saw the title as a challenge to existing racist and white supremacist belief structures about Africa. It is all about perception, ideology and faith in ones’ humanity. Certainly, a ‘visitor’ from ‘stormfront’ would read the question/title completely and totally different. What would have been a ‘better’ phrasing of the question?
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With regards to ‘tensions’ between African Americans and Africans, West Indians and every ‘damn’ body else, I’ve certainly experienced it. Attended a historically black college & university, and the African/West Indians were pretty much running the ‘native’ black Americans around; heavy on the condescension. yikes! I currently work with an African woman of Nigerian descent, and the condescension and subtle belittling is barely tolerable. We, for the most part are the only persons of black descent on this job, and she appears to find more solace/ comfort and commonality with the white Americans. No problem, but, her need to frame me and our ‘public’ discussions as her ‘superior’ and me ‘inferior’/below her is disgusting. And, the whites seem to pretty much ‘like’ her; certainly more than me, but as the saying goes, “if those people like you” not necessarily a good thing lol!
I have had to refrain from giving her the ‘urban and hood’ beat down, several times, as I want to remain employed.
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Titan,
I have no need of your approval either.
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“Most of the people I know are what you would call the “cream of the crop” They do in fact choose to study outside Nigeria because they can afford it. The arrogance is not because they think they’re better than African Americans (for some it might be) Its just “rich kid’s” arrogance. “
The perfect example of this would be Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab (The Underwear Bomber) who’s father, Alhaji Umaru Mutallab, is one of the richest men in Africa. He was studying at University College London, and his flat was worth over 4 million U.S. Dollars.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2009/12/27/2009-12-27_untitled__2london27m.html
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Abagond you should do a post on african resistance to the atlantic slave trade.
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“With regards to ‘tensions’ between African Americans and Africans, West Indians and every ‘damn’ body else, I’ve certainly experienced it. Attended a historically black college & university, and the African/West Indians were pretty much running the ‘native’ black Americans around; heavy on the condescension. yikes! I currently work with an African woman of Nigerian descent, and the condescension and subtle belittling is barely tolerable. We, for the most part are the only persons of black descent on this job, and she appears to find more solace/ comfort and commonality with the white Americans. No problem, but, her need to frame me and our ‘public’ discussions as her ‘superior’ and me ‘inferior’/below her is disgusting. And, the whites seem to pretty much ‘like’ her; certainly more than me, but as the saying goes, “if those people like you” not necessarily a good thing lol!
I have had to refrain from giving her the ‘urban and hood’ beat down, several times, as I want to remain employed.”
Immigrants to the US have traditionally attempted to gain acceptance from the white majority by showing disdain for African Americans. This may even apply to African immigrants.
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Oh putain! I don’t even know where to start. I’ll keep it short…
I reckon it is naive to assume some sort of inherent solidarity for the sole reason of sharing the same “race”. That may hold true to some extent in countries where black people or other non-whites are a minority, natives either by birth from a slavery heritage, first generation kids or by immigration. Now in many African countries, assuming no migration, things look very different.
There are quite a few demographic groups in my “1/4 African homeland” Cameroun who are lucky enough to be rather on the educated and reasonably wealthy side who would consider other, much less lucky groups of their fellow citizens as backwards, uncivilised and undeserving. That is, in a manner that would probably sound shocking to most people who grew up in Western societies, of all ethnicities. I have even experienced a certain correlation ‘the wealthier the more politically incorrect and the more complacent to social disparity’. Now if you look around you in your so-called civilised countries, you can see the same correlation, except that most of the complacency is wrapped up in political correctness and sugar-coated with “philanthropy”, private volunteers, charities etc. Anyway, to me it often just looks like tax write off BS, publicity stunts and to give the filthy rich a “clean” conscience.
Being raised in Europe I was always shocked how ‘unscrupulous’ some of my cousins back in Cameroun are in dealing with disabled beggars, street hustlers, skimpily clothed kids begging for a couple of centimes, the slums etc. Their stance is clear enough–
– if I gave every one of those poor folks just one franc, I’d be poor too in no time. The government needs to do something. It’s not right to deplete the people who have a little more and make them poor too. Get it from where the REAL money is. Only a government has the power to do that.
That’s where the vicious circle closes. The missing link is called… you guessed it… corruption. Slap some good old complacency and a pinch of ‘they don’t deserve anything anyway’ on it and you’re getting closer to some of the photos above. What’s left for the poor is what we call in French “système D”.
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@Titan Hahaha! Seriously? I pay no mind to such rubbish. Maybe its because I’m very aware of the way people see me the “aboki”
@King. Exactly. Although I’d like to point out that the rich kids from the North do not have underwear bombing tendencies. They’re too busy wondering how to spend their pocket money. He was a very special case. An oddity even.
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In regards to the tension between Africans, some Caribbeans and black Americans, I do believe it goes back to what Thaddeus and his wife mentions as the “hegemonic blackness” as portrayed in the American media.
Because American blackness is the dominant blackness the world sees, and American blackness is not in anyway, shape or form positive, many non-American blacks are concerned that they too are being judged by the standards of American blackness.
Many non-American blacks are frustrated with American blacks for not “doing better” socially, education-wise, etc.
The animosity toward American blacks is really the weighted frustration that non-American blacks have with American blacks, whom they perceive as embracing Ebonics, Hi-Hop/gangster culture and other negative qualities and influences that are destructive, and that make black people, in general, look bad.
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Some worrying stats
http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/poverty-facts-and-stats
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My family is Cameroonian and I’ve lived in Cameroon for 1 year and it was amazing. Its hard to understand unless you’ve been there, cause media and what we learn in school totally twist things and only show the bad sides. and perhaps its nicer if you have family to visit too.
I hate when people think life in Africa is shitty because I had so much fun there, compared to “first world” America. The food is amazing, the climate is great, people are great, music is great, etc.
And not everybody is poor, living in huts, with AIDS. in Cameroon my aunt’s family isnt that rich but they had a house in a neighborhood with a swimming pool and swingset. I dont even have that in America! I was only 5 when I visited Cameroon but I remember so much. I went to school and at age 5 I was doing the same math we learn in America at age 8! There are a lot more educated people in Africa than people think.. the problem is opportunities. You just have to be lucky that your family is rich or get a scholarship. theres also a lack of good teachers, and kids often have to support their families too
My dad’s family was dirt poor and he went to a top uni in England full-scholarship because he worked really hard all his life. thank god for that. now he’s even setting up his own company in america. And my my mom’s family was pretty grounded and they weren’t rich but they were pretty well off. but they still had to work hard in school and stuff. my mom said all the kids in her classes that had the nicest clothes and were the most popular and everything are still stuck in cameroon, with nothing made of their lives lol
I cant wait to visit Cameroon again!!!!!! Im 16 btw.
Africa haters to the motherfucking left.
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Also “first world” countries have big problems just as well as any other country. and just cause you have a big house doesnt mean you are living the best life. there are people who are much happier even though they dont have much
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“The animosity toward American blacks is really the weighted frustration that non-American blacks have with American blacks, whom they perceive as embracing Ebonics, Hi-Hop/gangster culture and other negative qualities and influences that are destructive, and that make black people, in general, look bad.”
One of the problems of this perception of American Blacks by non-American Blacks, is that it does not take into consideration the filters through which these cultural memes are sifted.
——–
For instance—rap music. Rap did not start out as it turned out. If you look back to the old MCs—Grandmaster Caz, Kurtis Blow, Melle Mel & The Furious Five, Afrika Bambaataa—you will find that the lyrics were braggadocios, but not particularly degenerate.
For years, rap was more about storytelling and the old “Best MC” competition that began back in the South Bronx MC scene. Rap wasn’t laced with profanity, misogyny, racism, pornography, pharmacology, and criminology. For years rap was more about about partying, good times, comedy, and rhythm. Rap even had a serious political stage with acts like Public Enemy, Tupac Shakur and reaching back to Gil Scott-Heron.
When Gangster Rap emerged—Easy E., Schooly D., Ice T., N.W.A., Ice Cube, and etc., it was an underground movement. It wasn’t really the kind of stuff people played on the radio and frankly, it had to compete with a lot of other rap that was better crafted, and held a larger market percentage, at the time. Nevertheless, in time, gangster rap was picked up and promoted by the urban music branches of every major recording company in the U.S. Gangster rap became popular, especially among the White teen demographic, and it soon became almost impossible for non-gangster hip-hop to get distributed. For years now, the music industry has been filtering out soft, political, and/or intellectual rap, in favor of shoot ’em ups, cocaine dealing ballads, and booty-shaking epics. Other forms (with few notable exceptions) have been methodically excluded.
So, when people look at the rap music phenomenon, from the outside in, they should remember, that in the end, gangster rap became a consumer product, that was sold primarily to White teens, by a primarily White controlled music industry. They should also be aware that historically, African-American urban rap encompassed many styles, and camps, most of them quite mild compared to the, now ubiquitous, gangster rap.
The real question to ask is why the music/media industry chose gangster rap as the preferred medium for urban music, because there were always a lot of other urban music choices out there.
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Historically, with regard to this issue of ‘animosity’ intra- racial. This goes back to the 1920s and even Fanon alludes to it in his essay ‘West Indian & Africans’ and that was written in1939
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@Mel
I don’t think Ana’s down on Black America, per se, and I think she has a pretty good understanding of what’s positive and what’s not in American cultures in general. She doesn’t expect any culture to be universally “positive” or “negative” and generally believes that poverty tends to cause misery, so it’s no wonder that peoples who get crapped upon end up being put on stage with all their warts under the spotlight.
Her critique of American blackness is that it’s drowning out other forms of blackness. It’s a critique of a certain form of Anglo pan-Africanism which takes its own values, views and histories as the norm to which the rest of the diaspora must measure up to.
Btw, Ana has an excellent article up on our blog on the racial aspects of Brazil’s recent World’s Cup defeat. Unfortunately in Portuguese:
http://omangueblog.blogspot.com/2010/07/selecao-brasileira-de-cristo-versus.html
Hopefully, I’ll find time to translate this one, because it’s really good!
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King,
What happens when there are no filters when Africans actually live among American Blacks.
I haven’t sense the divide personally even though I have had co-workers from Ghana and Ethiopia. In a metropolitan city where I live and work there are Black people in all positions, from your grocery clerk to the Mayor and the poor and the rich(who aren’t athletes).
I can see a possible disconnect if Africans attend a school which have few Blacks, then get a job and home in the suburbs. I think that they might take on the same view as the whites.
Most white are always surprised if you are not the first generation of an educated Black, they expect you to always have the son of a sharecropper story if you are successful. And many are shocked if you don’t fit any stereotype even though they do.
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Hathor there are always filters.
I can plop myself down tomorrow in the middle of Ethiopia with the idea that I am now accessing North African culture without filters. However, this would only be true if I erased my mind.
If not, I would still be referencing from my western world viewpoint, and I would still be processing the history of the place based on my own preconceived ethos and ideology.
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This is a mess.
But it was sweet to learn that Titan is a woman from the Motherland. I could listen to her all day.
@Abagond: For what its worth, I’m commenting from Africa 🙂
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@Leavumthinking
Looks like I’m going to have to resort to speaking Nigerian pidgin to you. Ear de pain you??? I say I no gree! You bin read my post at all? I talk say I no gree for hin sori. Na by force??? Wetin you wan do??? You go beat me abi na wetin? I SAY FOUL!!! Dat Abagond statement afta de disclaimer don prove say e no mean dat sori at all. Dat time sha! Now de koko of de matter be say e don finally understand why I de vex for dat hin sentence after hin yeye disclaimer. Hin sef don kuku understand so how e take consign you???? Abi you bin see me for dream??? Abeg hol’ yar side o! If dem send you say make you find me, abeg tell dem say Titan don cut comot o! Abeg!!!!
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Haha! I like Nigerian pidgin!
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LOL @ DSC! I’ll take that as a compliment! In fact I think I’ll go home for the Christmas holidays. My little prince needs to know his REAL home. And know that no matter what, he’ll always be accepted at home.
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LOL@ King! I had to break it down abi how you see am??? LOL!!!
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@dee
Well, with all respect for a 16 y.o. First of all you’re much more likely to find the “Africa haters” on the right wing side of the political spectrum. Second if your family made it somehow in Cameroun, more power to you. Maximum respect. But here comes the BUT. I would bet any sum of money that those who made it there don’t give a flaming toss about those who didn’t. There’s absolutely no solidarity whatsoever except for those who are related through family ties or who know each other somehow. Poverty does exist at a large scale. No swimming pool or great stories about amazing careers overseas will argue that fact away.
If you ask your family about President Biya, I bet they will tell you what all intelligent Cameroonians will tell you that he’s a time and tax money waster and non-achiever. He’s perfectly comfortable with the status quo and personally has no reason to change anything. Which boils down to “no improvement whatsoever”.
What Cameroun needs is someone like Barack Obama who shakes things up…
Cependant il faut rester réaliste quand même. Les états-unis ne sont ni le paradis, ni l’example pour tout le monde ailleurs. Il y a d’autres exemples…
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All due to the continued explotation of multi national corporations.
Although African people in general are more humble and freindly than American people in general who are overwhelmingly materialistic. Sad to hear some African Americans distancing themselves from their original home in Africa…
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There is a lot of misunderstanding throughout the entire black African diaspora.
All black africans everywhere are at the bottom of the barrel economically, socially, and politically. I’m personally sick and tired of of other black africans from Africa, the Carribbean, and South America who think that they are somehow better than black Americans.
Black Africans from the diaspora say that black Americans don’t have any culture because we were slaves and colonized, but fail to understand that all Africans have been colonized. No country in Sub-Sahara Africa produces written material in their native languages. They all conduct business, education, and media in English, French, or Arabic. The Black Africans in South America all speak Spanish or Portuguese. And in the Carribbean they all speak English or French (Haiti). So please spare us black Americans you alleged superiority. We all been colonized.
As far as economics goes, all blacks africans are the poorest on earth period. The continent of Africa should have a combined GDP of over or close to $20 trillon dollars, according to European economists. But they don’t have nowhere close to that amount. If Europeans or East Asians ruled Africa, they would be swimming in natural resources and thier economic clout would be God-like. Japan has zero resources and are second largest economy on planet earth. Black Africans in South America, are segregated, killed off, or garner little interest in their countries. South Americans do not want blacks in their country. Even in Brazil, segregated walls are being built to keep the poor (blacks) out of decent and affulent neighborhoods. As for as the Carribbean goes, I just laugh when ever Carribbean blacks come to America and act more superior to American blacks. England still controls must of the Carribbean and West Indie economies and South American countries feed them food.
If blacks from throughout the African diaspora were so superior, why don’t they go home and rebuild their shithole countries. Europe and China control Africa and Europe and South America control the Caribbeans. Just because immigrants come to a first world country and succeed doesn’t mean jackshit. Because their are still millions of poor blacks in the islands and Africa. China, Brazil, Dubai, will soon have first world countries to rival Western European countries as well as other Asian, South American, and Middle Eastern Countries. Blacks will still be looking for a handout and continue to be dirt broke and backwards. Asians and Hispanics have surpassed blacks in America economically, Africa is being recolonized by China and India, and the Caribbeans are still asking England and the West for handouts.
Just because a few immigrants migrate to first world countries like America or Western Europe, and become successful, it doesn’t mean that group of people have succesful countries. That includes all immigrants or migrants. Example: Indians and Pakistanis come to America and become sucessful, but their home countries are far from first world. Wester European whites are the least likely to migrate to another country, why, beacuse thay already have superior countries: America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, England, France, Germany, etc. Also included first world, non-European, Japan and South Korea.
All black africans are the same everywhere. Point blank. Black Americans have lost incredible ground economically, Africans sit on trillons of dollars and can’t do anything with it, and Caribbeans flee for America and the UK, for a better life even though the islands are paradise. Africans in the diaspora are incredibly wrong if you think that black Americans are somehow the worst blacks on planet earth. All blacks everywhere in every country are at the bottom of the barrel. Blacks in the Caribbean and Africa don’t even control their on economies. I’m sick and tired of black immigrants and migrants, thinking that black Americans are inferior. If other blacks from the diaspora are so superior go home and rebuild your economies then come talk about your alleged superiorities. Last time I checked, when Haiti was crushed by the earthquake, white nations, asian nations, middle eastern nations, and south american nations came to the rescue to save thier black ass. No black nation came to help because no black country, nation, or state can help blacks.
If the African diaspora reconigzes, our similarities; poverty, education, crime, then maybe be can progress forward and maked some incredible leaps in aquiring wealth, instead of bickering of who’s the poorest set of black africans on planet earth. Agreed?
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All Blacks said:
“No country in Sub-Sahara Africa produces written material in their native languages. “
and:
“Last time I checked, when Haiti was crushed by the earthquake, white nations, asian nations, middle eastern nations, and south american nations came to the rescue to save thier black ass. No black nation came to help because no black country, nation, or state can help blacks. “
These are simply not true. For example, Jamaica helped Haiti and there is plenty printed in Swahili and Amharic.
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Whilst reading ‘All Blacks Are The Same Everywhere’ comments had me thinking (perhaps its the mood I am in also) that very few of us realise how the system of global White supremacy works.
Even at the time when it was openly declared pre-1945, there were many that did not realise or accept there was such a thing. And now that it is no longer declared in such explicit and overt terms, people more so believe there is no such thing.
One thing for sure there has not been anything like it in the past, nor in the immediate future. Since when the Chinese become the number one ‘force’ (excuse the pun here) in the world. They will not be able to do so on consideration on ‘race’ because the way politics have unfolded in S.E. Asia…well that is my conjecture, but you never know
Hmmmm!!!
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I still believe the better way to do this is to talk about American privilege AND Black American privilege.
@J
Understanding white supremacy is important, for both whites and blacks (and other non-whites). Sadly, I am not sure any of the groups really understand it and its harmful ways.
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All black africans are the same everywhere. Point blank.
There speaks a person – alkmost certainly an anglo – who’s never left their hometown except on a package tour.
No, all black Africans are not the same, everywhere, nor have blacks been the only peoples to face racism, colonialism, white supremacy and predatory capitalism.
The view that the world’s black people are somehow united (or should unite) in a global family with a homogenous political view is solidly rooted in the same 19th century European romanticism that gave us Social Darwinism, eugenics and – eventually – fascism. As I’ve said many times before, bad European philosophies don’t suddenly become good “Afrocentric” philosophies simply because black faces are mouthing them.
Secondly, in spite of some posters’ rather overwrought political rhetoric, white supremacy was never a homogenous, all-encompassing ideology which united white people the world over.
Even a CURSORY glance at the history of racism outside the black/white divide will show that eugenics thought and racism were widely applied to certain white peoples as well. White trash was sterilized based on eugenics arguments in the U.S. White Jews, Gypsies, the disabled, homosexuals, slavs and a series of other “subhumans” were eliminated in mass during WWII.
Galton, Gobineau, Madison Grant and a series of other populr racist ideologues were very clear on one point: a light-colored skin didn’t mean you were “white”. When they said “white”, the inevitably meant a very specific type of white (Aryan), which had clearly defined class and ethnic coordinates.
And even among the self-proclaimed Aryan elite of Europe, white supremacy never prevented a single war, massacre, or conflict. Nor did it inspire much “brotherhood” in the tropical colonies, where Europeans generally saw each other as a bunch of back-biting, self-serving opportunists.
So to claim or imply – as J repeatedly does – that white supremacy was this big happy all inclusive ideology which united Europe and the white U.S. into a solid political unit is a historical fabrication of the first order.
Furthermore, to believe that white supremacy is somehow the motive force behind all of modern history is to mistake effects for causes.
CAPITALISM is the driving force behind modern history and capitalism is what created the trans-atlantic slave trade, white supremacy and, ultimately, race itself.
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Thad is correct here. God knows he’s not the best commenter in the discussions because he adores hair splitting, but he is correct here. Unfortunately, his views are highly unpopular among all the groups except for anthropologists.
What I’m saying is: white supremacy and its devastating effects are not easy to understand. It’s not that simple.
On the other hand, as much as I’d love to blame it on capitalism, it’s not that simple either. Oppressed and non-capitalist white groups share their own version of white supremacy.
PS-Thad, You didn’t capitalize Slavs. 😉
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Wow I don’t trust myself to respond to ‘all blacks are the same’ bollocks and keep a civil tongue, but well put Thad!
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A tiny digression here re: the remark made by “J” on Wed 30 July. The ‘Great’ in Great Britain has nothing to do with the British Empire. It has its origins in the French ‘Grande Bretagne’ and comes from the time of the Norman Conquest (when ‘Britain’ was invaded and ruled by the Norman French). It is a purely geographical term, to distinguish ‘Greater Brittany’ from mainland Brittany in the northwest of France.
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Just commenting the slave trade: in the Baltic sea region slave trade was doing just fine till the 9th century at least and beyond to the medieval times. I think the slavery was outlawed in France only after the revolution. Correct me if I am wrong.
First slave traders from Africa were some black tribes who sold some others to egyptians, romans, and later to arabs. And still later to the white europeans in the western part of the continent.
Actually, I don’t even know was there totally white controlled slave trade at all? Did the whites actually go and capture the slaves to be sold on the coastal trading places to the white slave traders, who took them across the Atlantic? This would have to be during the 1700’s and later, because earlier trading was done by the black slavers from inland and white coastal trading posts and then to the white cross-atlantic slavers.
I know that during the same time that slaves were brought to the Caribbean, some europeans were brought there as well as slaves. Granted, in much smaller numbers.
What a horrible business it really must have been!
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@Mira
Unfortunately, his views are highly unpopular among all the groups except for anthropologists….
…historians, sociologists, political scientists and, in short, pretty much anyone who actually has to look at history and society for a living.
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IT’s a very well known and wel-supported historical fact that Europe’s main slave trade up until the 15th century was in the Black Sea region and involved white slaves. In fact, the word “slave” comes from the word “slav”.
Europeans had absolutely no qualms at all about enslaving white peoples. They moved mainly to black slaves simply out of convenience. After the Turks took Constantinople, the Black Sea trade was largely cut off and, given the Spanish and Portuguese dominion over the Atlantic, Africa was much easier pickings.
The original ideology which allowed one to enslave was based on citizenship (during the Greek/Roman era), then religion (during Medieval times on up to the 16th century). Black Africans weren’t enslaved originally because they were black: they were enslaved because they were not Christian. The perception of them as “black” and “blackness” as fundamental to slavery came much later.
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Thad,
With regard to:
“So to claim or imply – as J repeatedly does – that white supremacy was this big happy all inclusive ideology which united Europe and the white U.S. into a solid political unit is a historical fabrication of the first order”.
I am afraid the history book reveals this to be the case. It perplexes me why you constantly try to deny this reality??
No-one is suggesting that this does not mean White Western nations were not at ‘war’ with each other.
Nor does it not mean that Whites were not sold into slavery.
Nor that the English did not discriminate aginst the Irish before POC.
You are the one who keeps suggesting that Whites were NOT one big happy family, presumably to support the contention that White Supremacy never existed historically.
The history book clearly shows that the Western White nations were built as a result of separating themselves as superior.
As a political ideology, in how the world has unfolded could form ‘political alliance’ based on race consideration.
In a way that the EEC is composed of different and competing countries all unified nonetheless.
It is in this context a political movement could be based starting in Africa, and manifest itself in places like the Caribban etc.
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Edit: omitted a word and should read as
As a political ideology, in how the world has unfolded, BLACKS could form ‘political alliance’ based on race consideration
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…historians, sociologists, political scientists and, in short, pretty much anyone who actually has to look at history and society for a living.
It depends on a historian or a political scientist, though.
Still, these groups are a minority and generally nobody listens.
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And with regard to:
“CAPITALISM is the driving force behind modern history and capitalism is what created the trans-atlantic slave trade, white supremacy and, ultimately, race itself.”
Its a case of which comes first the chiken or the egg??
Did Capitalism arise on its own or was it created by societies/cultures/people/individuals??
I would say the latter, it came out of a culture and not a vacuum
Notwithstanding the issue that historically racism existed even before the rise of capitalism, and specifically directed at those designated as having ‘Black skins’ by those with ‘White’ or lighter skins.
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Abagond replying to “All Blacks…” :
Some of the contributions of African governments to Haïti: Gabon 1 million $, Equatorial Guinea 2 Millions $, Ivory Coast 2 Millions $, Congo Brazaville 1 million $, Togo 500 000 $, Rwanda 100 000 $, Liberia 50 000 $, Senegal 1 million $, etc…
South Africa and Nigeria sent rescuers and policemen, Morocco sent 2 planes loaded with medicines, etc…
This is not an exhaustive list. “All Blacks…” can Google the rest. That is, if he/she is actually interested…
The amounts can not compare to the contributions from countries like the USA, but you have to keep in mind that those are symbolic gestures of countries which have their own difficulties. i.e. D.R. Congo which is facing civil war in several provinces and still managed to offer 2.5 millions $.
Also, the above figures do not include initiatives from African populations (fund raisings, telethons, volunteering, etc…).
The most spectacular decision was the offer by President Abdulaye Wade to offer land in Senegal to the Haitians willing to emigrate. It was much controversed in his country.
Why I bring this up? This may seem out of topic, but it is not. It’s just some examples of the kind of news that do not make it to the mainstream media of the west.
Do no expect western media to give you a balanced image of Africa.
And thank you “All Blacks…” for proving Titan right on this very crucial point:
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Cheers for the clarification Alan and being more accurate with regard to the use of the term, than I.
Just to add this is what I meant…
The Idea of Greater Britain:
Empire and the Future of World Order, 1860-1900
Duncan Bell
http://press.princeton.edu/chapters/s8530.html
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I am afraid the history book reveals this [Europe united by white supremacy] to be the case. It perplexes me why you constantly try to deny this reality??
Really? What history book are you reading there, J?
Because the history books I’m familiar with all talk about things like the Reformation, the Thirty Years War, the Seven Years War, the Napoleonic Wars, hundreds of less notable European slaughters like the War of Jenkin’s Ear, World War I, World War II, concentration camps for white folks of all sorts, ethnic cleansing in the Balkans, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseaum.
White people whomping on white people, without end, from the fall of Rome on down to today.
And the history of racism and white supremacy itself shows it to be a very controversial and divided ideology (or better yet, set of ideologies). The English, French and Germans all had their own versions of it which placed each of their ruling classes (quite coincidently, of course) at the top of the social evolutionary heap. And every single European nation showed itself to be more than happy to train “non-white” troops in the colonies to kill its “white” rivals.
Hardly the sort of attitude people would take if they were committed to this “Caspar über alles” notion of life that you propose.
And let’s not forget the one major point that many of the classic Aryanists from Gobineau on down agreed upon: the threat of degeneracy.
The history of white supremacy is very clear on THIS point, J: all whites were not created equal. Many – perhaps even most – were supposedly Aryan degenerates, semetics or other “types” such as the “Alpines” which were supposedly clearly inferior – inferior even to non-white races in many cases.
Racists like Gilman and Grant are very, very open and emphatic on this point: degenerate branches of Aryanism or “mongrel” white groups like the semetics were in fact inferior to blacks and native americans, who were seen as upwardly evolving.
Your problem, J, seems to be that you haven’t read any of the classic racists. They agreed about very little but one thing they DID agree on was that white supremacy wasn’t about all whites – not even close.
You are the one who keeps suggesting that Whites were NOT one big happy family, presumably to support the contention that White Supremacy never existed historically.
No, quite the opposite, in fact. I’m saying that white supremacy as it existed historically was nothing like the monolothic, all-inclusive and all-powerful ideology your fervid political imaginings make it out to be, J. I’m in favor of looking at white supremacy AS an historical artefact and not as a four-color comic book, replete with easily descried super villains, the position you seem to take.
The history book clearly shows that the Western White nations were built as a result of separating themselves as superior.
Again, what history book is that? The process of nation formation in Europe was long, varied and complex and according to most authors began in the late middle ages as states formed around courts. Classic chauvinistic nationalism showed up hundreds of years later when nations already existed and was in almost every case directed against nearby neighbors. WHITE neighbors, J.
I am not aware of a single European nation which built it’s sense of national identity primarily off of defining itself against a non-white Other.
Perhaps you could dive into that notional “history book” of yours and give us an example, J? Just one would be nice.
As a political ideology, in how the world has unfolded could form ‘political alliance’ based on race consideration.
This is illegible. Please try again.
In a way that the EEC is composed of different and competing countries all unified nonetheless.
The EEC is an extremely recent development and it is not based on race, J.
It is in this context a political movement could be based starting in Africa, and manifest itself in places like the Caribban etc.
J, the EEC is based on the idea of uniting Europe as an economic block – and even that’s not working out as hoped. The EEC is hardly a political movement – unless we’re talking about a notion of politics wherein all human activity is inherently political. It CERTAINLY doesn’t have a cohesive ideology or party line, which as far as I understand you neo-Garveyites, is what you propose for the African diaspora.
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Its a case of which comes first the chiken or the egg??
Did Capitalism arise on its own or was it created by societies/cultures/people/individuals??
I would say the latter, it came out of a culture and not a vacuum
Sure. Max Weber says that. That’s not the point. Capitalism was NOT created by anti-black racism, J. THAT’S the point.
Notwithstanding the issue that historically racism existed even before the rise of capitalism, and specifically directed at those designated as having ‘Black skins’ by those with ‘White’ or lighter skins.
Where?
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I know this doesn’t have much to do with this post but I have recently been dating a beautiful woman from Cameroon who goes to school here in America. We both have recently graduated and are preparing for medical school. We have been dating for more than two years and I thought we were very much in love. Her father and other family came here to visit and before she could even began to say anything about me being an American told her that whatever she does don’t date an African American because they are ignorant, complain too much and pretend to help you while always secretly wanting something else(Whatever that means). While she admits that I have shown no signs of any of these inadequacies she persist that I might in the future and is question whether we should stay together. Her family said she should even date a white man before she dates an African American, anything accept that. These surprised me because these are in essence black people from Africa who label all of a group of people based on what they see on television. What hurt me was the woman who I love so dearly actually taking this bullshit into consideration in our relationship. From that point to now she has been consistently mean to me and seemingly working towards abandoning the relationship. She has seemingly lost all respect for me since that and I find it painful to know that I invested so much time and love into a person to have their thoughts about me disabled by something so ignorant and petty. I say that to say that I believe that they have a preconceived notion of us just as we have of them in some cases. I also dated another girl from Nigeria who parents felt the same way but she felt strongly about me and didn’t consider their views on the subject but we didn’t get as serious as the girl I am currently dating from Cameroon.
I just thought I would put this out there to show how we are being led to believe ignorant contradictions of each other based on the White Man views that may be racist or maybe just to disrupt unity between one another. It’s amazing to me how every non white we never get to see its true beauty or what it has to offer us but Europe is so great and they are so fit and they have the best art. It disgust me how people who have to jump the same hoops in this world tend to hate each other the most and aspire to eat from the hand that only wants to control you. I think that is the new way the smart white man works is to open its doors and control your mind. Make how you dress, think, and perceive as happiness his one and the same. But most of all make his enemies yours. This way you have a competent individual who thinks just like you and perceives things like you, so what is his skin color is different as long as his hopes fits my hopes. That is happening here in America every where to all minorities. It is only natural for the minority social class to become like the majority. In that sense it doesn’t matter if Latin or blacks outnumber white people or anything because the mines will be the same and maybe in some fucked up way that is the best way. All I know is from history there is no civilization that has ever came into contact with white people and have flourished there afterwards in their own rights. They spreaded disease and killed more than 90% of populations but yet everyone else is inferior to them. I am not racist and I hope this is not perceived as racism I just think that the key to real change is for people to learn to be truly honest. This country and this world needs earth shattering changes if we want to evolve positively into something greater. But to do that either everybody risk something or one person comes in with a power that surpasses every one else’s combined and that one person may only be God.
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All I know is from history there is no civilization that has ever came into contact with white people and have flourished there afterwards in their own rights. They spreaded disease and killed more than 90% of populations but yet everyone else is inferior to them. I am not racist and I hope this is not perceived as racism…
No, I don’t see it as racist, just ignorant.
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FG said:
Immigrants to the US have traditionally attempted to gain acceptance from the white majority by showing disdain for African Americans. This may even apply to African immigrants.
I think you have a point here, but the media also portrays America and black America in different ways, save the celebrities.
….I also think the needing or wanting to be look at as different from blacks of the Americas contributes to this as well.
I suppose if the only images I had of Africa were from the media (which many black Americans do)–like many Africans get images of black America from the media and what they have “heard”, I’d look at Africa as somehow backward myself, but because I knew better…I didn’t buy it as the completeness of Africa, a continent, and it’s various countries….it’s the same way with blacks in the Americas.
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*needing or wanting to be looked at as different from blacks of the Americas contributes to this as well.
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@ Timothy.
It would be nice if we could really say that all of our cultural tensions were “based on the White Man views,” but they are not. Africans have been hating Africans since before they even knew what a White man was. It is an unfortunate trait of human societies that we tend to generalize, marginalize, and finally ostracize, persons who we perceive to be “other.” It doesn’t matter if the division is on a racial, tribal, or familial level. This behavior is seen in people groups all over the world.
The other problem is that if you look at Black Americans through cold statistics alone, even without the influence of TV, movies, or other media, you will come up with some fairly negative stats (as RR is quite delighted to point out). there are many people who don’t seem to see the nuance between group statistics and individual choices and character.
As for your girlfriend, all I can say is that this issue was going to come up sooner or later, and you should be thankful that it’s sooner. It will be hard for her to stand against the people who raised and love her, but sometimes it’s necessary. As for you, stand on your own two feet and insist on being treated with the respect that you deserve. Don’t complain about her family to her, don’t argue with her, don’t beg, or plead. Continue to treat her family with the utmost respect and deference. You are the same man you were before they arrived, and your best argument is your nobility of character and class. Speak less, and let your actions speak for you.
And if, in the end, she doesn’t see it, then you’ve saved yourself from a miserable life with her. Hard as it may seem, move on.
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With regard to racism pre-capitalism.
1. India c.1500BC
The origins of the caste delineation are at THIS point in history, when the fair skinned Aryans finally defeat the darker skinned Dravidians and other non Aryans. The word used to describe this classification is ‘varna’, Sanskrit for ‘colour’. In effect, this was a system of colour based differentiation
http://www.colaco.net/1/caste.htm
“Indra is the Vedic god of rain and thunder. He is king of the gods in the Rig Veda, ranking next to Agni. The Rig Veda also describes him as the great warrior, and leader of the Aryans, who crumbles the humble earthworks of the black, snub-nosed, “primitive,” of the land, loots the treasure houses of the “godless,” and “frees the rivers (a phrase taken to mean the breaking down of dams and levees).”
http://www.themystica.com/mythical-folk/articles/indra.html
2. Jewish Talmud
“There is no denying that the Babylonian Talmud was the first source to read a Negrophobic content into the episode by stressing Canaan’s fraternal connections with Cush”
Mr. Brackman cited what he called an “important” Talmudic “version of the myth”:
“Ham is told by his outraged father that, because you have abused me in the darkness of the night, your children shall be born black and ugly; because you have twisted your head to cause me embarrassment, they shall have kinky hair and red eyes; because your lips jested at my expense, theirs shall swell; and because you neglected my nakedness, they shall go naked” (page 81).
3. And with regard to the above the Arabs during Islam later adopted this Talmudic view, until much later c.1200 AD, that only Blacks were slaves (abd)…and it is even a term used today in Arab society.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1705429/posts
There is also evidence for racism in pre-Islamic society but that is a differnt subject.
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Thad,
I am not quite sure how best to reply to you since you appear to be covuluting matters.
You correctly identify:
“And the history of racism and white supremacy itself shows it to be a very controversial and divided ideology (or better yet, set of ideologies). The English, French and Germans all had their own versions of it which placed each of their ruling classes (quite coincidently, of course) at the top of the social evolutionary heap. And every single European nation showed itself to be more than happy to train “non-white” troops in the colonies to kill its “white” rivals”
However, here you admit to White Supremacy, but you do not identify two important factors
1. In hoping to be the ‘top dog’ nation Europeans were prepared to killed each other
2. No matter how many wars Europeans fought against each other, and killed each other they perceived POC as ‘inferiors’. As you even tentatively allude to in the aforesaid quote.
With regard to:
“No, quite the opposite, in fact. I’m saying that white supremacy as it existed historically was nothing like the monolothic, all-inclusive and all-powerful ideology your fervid political imaginings make it out to be”
No-one said it was ‘monolithic’ except you.
I think you have missed the point altogether. This is exactly what I said and referred to in my last post.
And just to add further because it is not ‘monolithic’ – in anthropology nothing ever is a monolith – therefore by your reasoning ‘White Supremacy’ did not exist.
With regards to what politics is or is not:
This online dictionary defines it thus:
1. the science or art of political government.
2. the practice or profession of conducting political affairs
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/politics
Need I say anymore except that your academic training in anthropology, something one commentator alluded to, does not helps to represent the historical world in its appropriate ‘context’
And that we are having this dialogue =- about whether there is such a thing as White Supremacy historically, is proof of my contention
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With regard to the EEC, my own personal view it is further consolidation of ‘White Supremacy’. The U.N, IMF. World Bank, NGOs, Eastern Europe when it was constructed and the list goes on forever also help to maintain the ‘White global order’ across the world vis-a-vis Third World.
If you wish to view these as ‘innocent’ and constructed for the ‘benefit’ of humankind, then you are well within your right to do so
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@J
We’ve dealt with the probable roots of the “light skinned bias” in many other posts, J, which I’m sure you have read. To put it simply and bluntly, it is most probably class-based and not based on some millenial concept of white racial supremacy.
But I’m intrigued, J: you seem to be stating that Europe learned white supremacy from INDIA? 😀
Right….
Because if that’s not the case, what possible connection could these Vedic stories have to the topic at hand?
As for the Jewish connection… J, you seem to be intentionally confusing a local class-based prejudice against dark skin (and I highly doubt that the original translation was “black and ugly”, btw – probably more like “dark and ugly”) with later European white supremacy… and said prejudice articulated by a people who never considered themselves to be white in the first place.
Not all prejudice – even that based on phenotypes – is necessarily racism, J. In fact, that biblical quote you give us belies racism: it shows that Jewish children could come out in a manner they considered to be “dark and ugly”,something which couldn’t logically occur if they indeed believed in race. Not even that quote of yours cites Ham as saying “your kids are going to come out looking like Cushites”, does it? That’s just a certain letter writer’s fairly subjective interpretation of a comment taken from someone’s thesis. And since when are “red eyes” a characteristic of sub-saharan peoples?
Also, I gotta love your sources, J: letters to the NYTimes editor and blogs. Now THERE’S some deep research material for you. Real primary source stuff!
This is the best you can come up with to back up your assertion that white supremacy is some sort of pre-capitalist ideology?
Finally, I would also expecty you to know better than to claim that blacks “were only slaves” under Islam, which seems to be one of the points you are trying to make. That is simnply not true.
However, here you admit to White Supremacy….
This is another of your famous “have you stopped beating your wife?” rhetorical tricks, J. You are implying that I deny that white supremacy exists as an ideology, a position I do not hold to. I DO believe that white supremacy is a multi-faceted and slippery set of IDEOLOGIES – plural.
That is a different position and I would appreciate it if you’d have the intellectual honesty to recognize that fact.
1. In hoping to be the ‘top dog’ nation Europeans were prepared to killed each other
No doubt, as I’ve been at some pains to explain. So how is this me somehow “forgetting” this “important point”?
2. No matter how many wars Europeans fought against each other, and killed each other they perceived POC as ‘inferiors’. As you even tentatively allude to in the aforesaid quote.
The problem is that they had no cohesive and singular view of who were “people of color” and who were “white”, on the one hand. On the other, as I explained above ( a point which obviously escaped you, as you think I’ve said the opposite), no, they did not believe that all PoC were inferior to all whites.
“Degenerate” white groups were considered by most classical racists to be much lower on the scale than, say, blacks or Indians. In Gobineauian thought, it was far more eugenic to belong to a “race” still on its way up the evolutionary scale than it was to be a member of once-evolved race on its way DOWN.
And these guys – note you well – did not speak in terms of “white” versus “black” when the talked about race. They spoke of “aryans”, a very small subset of those people you and most of the world today consider to be “white”. Furthermore, they did not even agree on who were Aryans and who weren’t. To Nazi Aryanists, for example, the French in general were degenerates and if Hitler had won, it wouldn’t have been too long before “ethnic cleansing” would have been applied there.
But to French aryanists, the French nobility were the supreme example of the Aryan race. Of course, English Aryanists like Galton and Grant believed that the Anglo-Saxon elite were the final remaining flower of Aryanism and that both the French and the Germans were degenerates. Etc., etc. ad nauseaum.
This stuff is all clearly laid out in these guys’ writings, J, and you should really check it out.
So resuming for the tl;dr crowd:
1) No, ancient prejudices against darker skin are not necessarily instances of negrophobia and white supremacy, no matter what the “letters to the editor” column of the New York Times might indicate. And…
2) Classic white supremacist thought DID NOT believe that all white people were superior to all people of color. Only a very small, very select group of pure “Aryans” were superior and there was constant disagreement about who this group contained and who it didn’t.
No, J: there was no overarching, homogenous, cohesive trans-European ideology of white supremacy.
Sorry.
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Thad,
1. You asked for instances of racism before teh rise of capitalism
I gave them to you and then you go on to say:
“No, J: there was no overarching, homogenous, cohesive trans-European ideology of white supremacy.
Sorry”.
This comment is totally irrelavent to what you asked me.
2. With regard to the issue of racism before capitalism.
You keep making the mistake that a fact is wrong because the website is not academic.
Again here your academic training betrays you.
Furthermore its clear you know very little or nothing on the instances I provided but yet you seek to provide a critique of the theory, without even having the ‘knowledge’.
Ironically, if you knew your subject matter, you would not be querying N.YTimes in this instance.
3. By the way what is ‘classic white supremacy’??
Personally what our discussion is about is your reluctance as a White person to accept that there is ‘White Supremacy’ and the implication that it ultimately has for you and the way you perceive the world…
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I’m not sure if this diverts from the issue but let me just throw this thought in for realistic measure…
Even the most homogeneous society (whatever ethnicity that may be) will seek, find and declare their “niggers”. If it’s not through the colour of their skin or eyes, the structure of their hair or their bodies, they will go down to religion, political beliefs, until they reach the fundamentals which in essence is mentality, personality traits, character, agressivity, docility etc. It seems to be rooted in human nature to put a lot of effort in finding their ‘inferior’ as opposed to concentrate on getting together regardless of the differences there may be.
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1. You asked for instances of racism before teh rise of capitalism
I gave them to you…
No, you did not. Prejudice based upon phenotype is not racism, J. For it to be racism, you need the crucial concept of “race” which didn’t exist in any of the examples you gave.
Saying “darker is uglier than lighter” is not racism. It can also be classism or any one of a thousand varieties of human chauvinism. In the cases you mention, it is.
So not only is your point irrelevant to what we are talking about (the supposed existence of a singular trans-European notion of white supremacy), it is also not germaine to the question I asked you, to whit, show us some examples of racism pre-capitalism.
You keep making the mistake that a fact is wrong because the website is not academic.
No, I think letters columns, chats and blogs are bad sources. I’d like to see something more authoritative than “some guy said something somewhere”.
Furthermore its clear you know very little or nothing on the instances I provided but yet you seek to provide a critique of the theory, without even having the ‘knowledge’.
J, those examples were quite self-explanatory and neither of them involves what is today understood to be the concept of race.
By the way what is ‘classic white supremacy’??
Gobineau, Galton, Grant, etc. The founders of white supremacist and ayranist thought. The ideological founders of modern scientific racism.
Personally what our discussion is about is your reluctance as a White person to accept that there is ‘White Supremacy’ and the implication that it ultimately has for you and the way you perceive the world…
Well, then you either have reading comprehension problems or are being cynical because I have never argued that white supremacy doesn’t exist. What I HAVE argued is that it is not a SINGULAR, HEGEMONIC, HOMOGENOUS ideology which united all of Europe.
I note that you’re avoiding like the plague my central point:
The classic white supremacists – the ones who were the main articulators of the ideology in its many variants during the heydey of European nationalism – didn’t spoke of white people but of ARYANS. They had very clear cut views who Aryans were, but those views differed from one another – often radically – and never embraced anything but a minority of white people.
So to resume and simplify:
You claim that Europe was unitied in its views on white supremacists and universally believed that all white people were better than all people of color.
The main ideologues of race, however, had diverging views on who and who was not what you would call “white” and all of them agreed that certain “degenerate” white populations were far lower on the evolutionary scale than many of what you call “people’s of color”.
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Thad,
1. Do you know the theory why it is suggested that the first instance of racism occurs on the Indian sub-continent??
Here we go again that ‘race’ did not exist then. However, what we do have is those with ‘White’ and/or lighter skin discriminating against those with ‘black skin’ as alluded to in the historical records.
So this is a superfluous argument, based essentially on semantics and ‘mental gymnastics’. Again a trapping of your academic training.
2. Just to show that you do not your subject matter, but yet you cannot admit so. You say:
“it shows that Jewish children could come out in a manner they considered to be “dark and ugly”,something which couldn’t logically occur if they indeed believed in race”
The reference in the Talmud is referring to Jews describing Black people as cursed via God
3. If you want something more substantive as reference. Then it shows the discussion is about ‘what you want to hear’ and not the ‘facts’, something I alluded to in my last post.
I have told you of instances in the world pre-capitalism which you appear not to be aware off. Instead of using that as a base to conduct your own research to assess the validity of what was said. You take the ‘high-handed papproach’ of critiquing theories that you do not know anything about. How strange is this??
4. As for the Aryans. I am afraid you do not have the facts correct. The Aryans were deemed as ‘White’ and it is these same ‘Aryans’ were deemed as the originators of Indian civilisation (Harrapa and Mohenjo Daro).
5. I still maintain:
“Personally what our discussion is about is your reluctance as a White person to accept that there is ‘White Supremacy’ and the implication that it ultimately has for you and the way you perceive the world…”
This is why when I raised the topic of White Supremacy. You did not try initially to deny its existence but you did so inadvertently by suggesting the ‘red herring’ that there is no ‘monolithic’ structure to White Supremacy.
Which was precluded by your statement:
“So to claim or imply – as J repeatedly does – that white supremacy was this big happy all inclusive ideology which united Europe and the white U.S. into a solid political unit is a historical fabrication of the first order”.
5. If you wish to believe that White people in the form of White Western Nations did not conquer what is now known as the Third World on the basis that these people were ‘inferior’ on the basis of their skin colour and then subsequent race because they were NOT White [ie White Supremacy]. Then once again you are totally free to do so.
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Do you know the theory why it is suggested that the first instance of racism occurs on the Indian sub-continent??
That article says nothing of the sort. It says that one group was darker and another lighter and that there was animosity between them. That’s hardly racism, J.
“it shows that Jewish children could come out in a manner they considered to be “dark and ugly”,something which couldn’t logically occur if they indeed believed in race”
The reference in the Talmud is referring to Jews describing Black people as cursed via God
No it is not. Not in the translation and certainly not in the original. It is saying that a certain apostate’s kids will come out dark and ugly. It is not saying “like the Kushites, an inferior race of people”. Furthermore, if a Jew can have “dark and ugly” kids, then said kids obviously can’t be members of a different race, can they?
All you can say about that Talmud quote is that they considered darker uglier than lighter, which again is a universal human trait even in Africa. It is based on the fact that “light” is associated with less exposure to the sun and thus more leisure – no necessary racial component involved. We’ve been over this time and again on the “japan” and “Animé” threads.
I have told you of instances in the world pre-capitalism which you appear not to be aware off.
I’m aware of them, alright. They just aren’t racism. They don’t presume the existance of biologically discrete, true-breeding human subspecies and do not align these in a heirarchy, the two defining characteristics of racism.
You seem to think that “racism” occurs any time one group called a certain physical type ugly or unpleasant.
As for the Aryans. I am afraid you do not have the facts correct. The Aryans were deemed as ‘White’ and it is these same ‘Aryans’ were deemed as the originators of Indian civilisation (Harrapa and Mohenjo Daro).
Not really. You’re mixing up two completely different uses of “Aryan”.
“Aryan” was originally a linguistic family and in that sense it still has a certain validity. These are the “Indo-European” peoples who end up invading both the Mediterranean Basin and India. This is the use your Dr. Santosh Helekar is making of it.
The second use of “Aryan” developed from the first. 19th Century white supremacists presumed that it was an actual PEOPLE and not a set of loosely linked peoples within a general language group. They believed said people was uniquely capable of forging human civilizations and that they had, in fact, formed EVERY human civilization. This is the root of “Aryan” in its white supremacist sense.
There’s also a third sense in which the word is used. Many Indian nationalists, aware of the Aryan-speakers invasion and also aware of the classical racist use of the word have combined the two into a nationalist and somewhat fascist ideology within India. In this mythological view of the word, Aryan -speaking peoples are by-God supremacist ARYANS, the one tribe of “true humans” who created both European AND Indian civilization. I don’t know if your boy Santosh Helekar is in this group or not, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he leaned that way, given your penchant for quoting fascists to us as top genetic scientists.
You seem to have an affinity for these peopl, J. 😀
This is why when I raised the topic of White Supremacy. You did not try initially to deny its existence but you did so inadvertently by suggesting the ‘red herring’ that there is no ‘monolithic’ structure to White Supremacy.
J, look up “red herring”. You are using the term incorrectly.
You believe that white supremacism is a coherent and cohesive ideology. You support this belief, apparently, on the writings of fascists of various stripes who are, of course, heavily engaged in racialized myth-making.
I believe that white supremacy was a series of often contradictory ideologies. I base this view on actually having READ the main works of the main 19th century white supremacists and noting their inconsistencies and contradictions.
This is a conflict of viewpoints, J, not a red herring. And it’s a conflict of viewpoints in which, I might add, you have not engaged with one single primary source and I have.
Gee, what’s a better source when it comes to discussing the ideology of white supremacism, J?
A letter to the editor of the New York Times regarding a tendacious interpretation of a third party’s doctoral thesis?
Or the actual written works of the principal European white supremacists?
But hey, don’t answer ‘cuz I already know: “evidence is a European conceit, especially when it contradicts anything a black fascist believes”.
I BELIEVE white supremacy existed and exists, J. I think you are full of horse manure, however, when you claim it united Europe in a cohesive political position with regards to the rest of the world.
You are simply cooking on Venus with that one, bucko.
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I may not be academically able to comment on this issue, but I can provide some experiences and observations from my poin of view.
The swedes have always for some peculiar reason treated finns as second class citizen and people. Even though finns have always been the absolutely biggest minority in Sweden, they did not have any official status as a minority untill few years ago. Languages like urdu etc. had a minority status, but not finnish.
They even invented a minority langauage up north. The finns of the Tornio river valley have lived on both sides of the river (and border) for centuries and speak the local dialect. They simply call their dialect as Meän kieli, Our language. The Swedish goverment accepted Meän kieli (a dialect of finnish) as an official minority language like it is not finnish but some other language. Funny?
Some swedish scientists also were convinced that finns were mongols or some other alien race and there fore much lower than those pure swedes of nordic race.
As for the finns, we just hated everybody. Swedes were faggots and nancies, russians were stupid, dirty and slow, the saami of Lapland drunken thieves and so on. And we still do: estonians are hotheaded thieves, poles are drunks and thieves, germans are nazis, the french monkeys, the brits lager louts, americans loudmouths, italians spagehtti-eating thieves, spanish just take a siestas, greeks cheat on everybody, the turks have knives and tremendous amount of body hair, arabs are crooked, indians drink tea and look funny, vietnamis sing instead of talk, chinese are trying to steal the world and australians drink beer and kill kangaroos all day long.
But we are going even further in our hatred of our fellow men. We don’t like each other either. The guys from north are depressed drunks, guys from the east (the famous savolax guys) are lying even when they tell the truth, guys from the south west are pretenders and stiff asses, carelians are blabbering endlessly etc. We even hate our neighbours!
There is a joke about this: a finn, a russian and a swede were living along side of a river far away in the wilderness. One day some wood chip was floating by. The swede looked that and cried out: thank God I’m not alone anymore! Russian looked that and said: finally I have somebody to get drunk with. Finn looked the chips for a very, very long time. Finally he said very angry: perkele! Picked up his axe and went up river.
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Thad,
No matter how many insults you hurl, in fact the more you hurl the better because it reveals so much more about you…
However, and unfortunately for you the fact still remains
that:
“Personally what our discussion is about is your reluctance as a White person to accept that there is ‘White Supremacy’ and the implication that it ultimately has for you and the way you perceive the world…”
And in fact much of what you say here is related to proving or should that disproving that Whites are ‘unique’ when it comes to the philosophy of racism, genocide etc.
* This is why you and your partner can write articles about Black Americans being ‘superior’ to Black Brazilans.
* Why you constantly make refernce to Angolans in Brazil looking down on ‘Black Brazilians’
* Why Black women did NOT have a lower status than the White women during slavery
* All the semantics about the Black females and the issue of rape by White slavemasters.
What irks you, and especially with regard to my words is that it acts as a ‘critique’ against your sentiments, and thus is creates ‘cognitive disonance’, whereby you are having problems’ accepting the White historical past, but want to suggest that ‘everybody’ in the past is equally to be blamed for the ‘wrongs of the world’.
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NG,
“I disagree. Most of the people I know are what you would call the “cream of the crop” They do in fact choose to study outside Nigeria because they can afford it. The arrogance is not because they think they’re better than African Americans (for some it might be) Its just “rich kid’s” arrogance. They leave their “mini mansions” where they have maids and drivers at their beck and call and live in apartments and ride trains and buses. They might not be living in their mini mansions anymore but the arrogance is still there.
Where do you live? The majority of African immigrants are not spoiled rich kids. I don’t need to look at statistics to confirm that. The above seems like your skewed interpretation, but I’m willing to hear you out.
FYI, one does not need to be rich to have a maid and servants in many places in Africa. A middle class lifestyle can afford maids, chauffeurs, etc, who many times work in exchange for having their school fees paid.
King,
“The perfect example of this would be Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab (The Underwear Bomber) who’s father, Alhaji Umaru Mutallab, is one of the richest men in Africa. He was studying at University College London, and his flat was worth over 4 million U.S. Dollars.”
This is like pointing to Oprah and saying that she is the perfect example of the status of blacks in America. Mr. Abdulmutallab is not the typical example of an African immigrant, by any stretch of the imagination.
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To those trumpeting the fact that most African immigrants have completed high school prior to emigration as evidence of them being “exceptional” (RR, I’m talking to you):
This is not proof. Quite the contrary, since those countries where the majority of African immigrants originate from (Ethiopia, Ghana, Nigeria, South Africa) have high school completion rates over 50 percent and some even over 75 percent. IOW, this makes them the average, not some well-educated elite.
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Also Thad if you looked at the Cheikh Anta Diop Southern Cradle and Northern Cradle, you would know that racism was one of the key factors convincing Europeans that slavery was justified. Plus greed and common indecency. I am sure that there was some Europeans against slavery but thats not the point. You should understand that raciwm in its purest form is just to devalue someone for greed, or to simply up hold your on value in a ever changing world. Every race is susceptible to racism but whhite people definitely has a predisposition to it compared to every other race. You achieve to make yourself appear more objective but in doing so only prove to be a latent racist or open one. Don’t try to interpret history simply see it for the lies and truths it is and only then can mankind honestly change its future toward a greatness we can’t imagine. Its so stupid to hate someone or mistreate someone for things that they can’t control.
1. Were someone is Born
2. Who there parents are
3. What color is there skin or any physical features
To hate someone becasue of any of these is completely is against the christian faith and even if you don’t believe in God it is completely irrational. Think about it how could they control it. If you chose to hate or mistreat someone at least do it for something they can control like how they choose to dress, were they choose to live, what particular party they choose to side with or even what they choose to eat. I don’t agree with these things and in some cases this is manipulated by other people but at least you can say that they have a choice.
Mankind has spent centuries learning right from wrong when will we apply it in totality.
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With regard to:
“…You achieve to make yourself appear more objective but in doing so only prove to be a latent racist or open one.
I would go for the latter personally…
Either way the aforesaid is what is referred to as the ‘White liberal’ with regard to the issue of race.
Steve Biko discusses this very same thing:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Aq5PJWaSTzUC&printsec=frontcover&dq=I+write+what+I+like&source=bl&ots=4jRZds0DVB&sig=i376V-kWgEeok9rnEfo_i7PwYKA&hl=en&ei=EkozTKTLNZT20gSXtvHnDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false
p.23
Considering the nature of Abagond’s blog, I am surprised he has not created a subject on this theme.
Since after the role of the ‘Black Devils’, the White liberal with their hypocrisy and deceit must rank as the most dangerous to the ‘Black cause’
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Dear J,
Who’s insulting? I think you’re a fascist strito sensu, J, in the most basic sense of the word. Let me define that:
A person who believes that individual will must be subsumed into that of the nation. Who believes that nations must be unified at all costs. Who believes that members of a nation have some sort of essencial or even biological connection between each other. A person who believes that the correct national political position must be decided by an elite vanguard and then force fed to the “people” for their own good.
This isn’t an insult, J: it’s a cold-blooded political analysis of your philosophies, as expressed on this board.
And in fact much of what you say here is related to proving or should that disproving that Whites are ‘unique’ when it comes to the philosophy of racism, genocide etc.
Illegible. Please try again.
This is why you and your partner can write articles about Black Americans being ‘superior’ to Black Brazilans.
J, I know it’s hard for you to believe that women can think independently or that they can be anything other than “mothers of the nation”, but I assure you that Ana Paula writes very well and can express her own ideas without my help. What she DOES NOT DO is write in English, so I translate for her. If you have a beef with what Ana said about black gringos feeling themselves “superior” to black Brazilians, then I suggest you take it up with her and not me.
Why you constantly make refernce to Angolans in Brazil looking down on ‘Black Brazilians’
Where did I make a reference of this sort, let alone “constant” references? I do recall saying that my African-born students (Mozambiqueans, Angolans and Cabo Verdians) are not very impressed with the level of “Pan-African” debate which they find among Brazil’s black nationalist writers. If that’s “Angolans looking fown on Black Brazilians” to you, then I submit that’s your fascism talking once again. Apparently in your eyes there can be no political divergence among members of the African diaspora without this being translated into some sort of insult.
Why Black women did NOT have a lower status than the White women during slavery.
Something I have never said. My argument had nothing to do with the relative status of black and white women during slavery. It had to do with sexual violence and the notion that somehow white women were free sexual agents during slavery.
But I understand, J: strawmen are your specialty. You can’t actually engage with what I’m saying, so you’re forced to make crap up, whole cloth, and argue against that.
I just think it’s sad that you need to be so intellectualy dishonest.
All the semantics about the Black females and the issue of rape by White slavemasters.
The semantic issue was introduced by several black and female commentators on here who insist upon defining “rape” as sex under any situation of coercion, whether it be physical or social structural in nature. Now that’s a pretty heavy semantical arguement. My only point was, if that’s going to be the definition of rape – a definition I would not propose, by the way – then it would be difficult to find a woman who WASN’T raped in 1845.
I can’t be called to account if other people dig semantical graves and I simply point out that they’re looking at a hole in the ground.
What irks you, and especially with regard to my words is that it acts as a ‘critique’ against your sentiments, and thus is creates ‘cognitive disonance’, whereby you are having problems’ accepting the White historical past, but want to suggest that ‘everybody’ in the past is equally to be blamed for the ‘wrongs of the world’.
J, you don’t “irk” me, you amuse me!
In fact, as I’ve mentioned before, I don’t think that you are one person: rather, I think you are some sort of collective entity. There’s one J who seems to have actually read people like Fanon and who writes in the Queen’s English. I disaghree with a lot of what he says, but he seems tyo be fairly well informed and knows his ass from a hole in the ground. Then there’s another J who regularly blows basic English constructs and thinks that linking us to a National Socialist wiki is a wonderful way of providing this forum with an adequate scientific source for a discussion of race.
The only “cognitive dissonance” going on here J is betwee your two personalities. 😀
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@Timothy
Also Thad if you looked at the Cheikh Anta Diop Southern Cradle and Northern Cradle, you would know that racism was one of the key factors convincing Europeans that slavery was justified.
Yes, Tim, WELL after African slavery was already underway.
The Europeans were enslaving all sorts of folks long before they started down the coast of Africa. Slavery wasn’t invented by the European contact with Africa. Slavery gradually came to be associated with non-whites due to the fact that Africans and Indians became more and more the vast majority of slaves. So the justifications Diop is talking about are quite real, but the came post facto. A fact that Diop doesn’t deny, IIRC.
No one said “Hey, Africans are black so let’s enslave them!” What was said is “Look at all these black and brown slaves we’ve got. There must be something about peoples like this that make them inferior”.
The early European voyagers into Africa and the Americas did not see themselves as “better” because of skin color, but as “better” because of religion. This point is backed up by reams and reams of documents – primary sources – showing European voyagers to be saying exactly this.
Meanwhile, you can dig through all the documents you like, but I very much doubt you’ll find more than a handful of early modern explorers who even mentioned skin color in a negative way, let alone articulated the idea that people’s biological make up made them “naturally” inferior. In the case of the European contact with the Americas, for example, the early explorers were almost all universally impressed by the size, strength and physical beauty of the Indians.
Plus greed and common indecency.
Like I said, capitalism.
Reminding you once again, Timothy, that it’s pretty much a well-supported given among historians of all nations and colors that racism rose up out of capitalism and not the other way around. If you want to prove the opposite, you’re going to have to show at least as much evidence as supports the currently reigning theory. I’m sorry, but links to places like the neo-fascist “Metapedia” don’t do that.
Every race is susceptible to racism but whhite people definitely has a predisposition to it compared to every other race.
Define “racism”. You seem to be working on the definition that racism means “a dislike for another sort of people”. That’s not it’s definition. There’s a big difference, for example, between racism and ethnocentrism or even simple bigotry.
So perhaps this discussion would be improved if you tried defining your basic terms, first. Note that I’ve already defined what I mean by racism: a belief in persistent and discrete human biological subspecies which are ordered in heirarchical fashion. What’s your operative definition?
If you’re point is “People are a$$h0les to other people and Europeans have a record for being some of the world’s biggest a$$h0les”, that’s a thesis I can get behind. If your point is “Europeans invented racism”, I would agree with that too.
But if your point – like J’s – is that white supremacy is some sort of ur-ideology among Europeans which has united them against the rest of the world from prehistoric times on down to today, then I’m sorry: that’s romantic BS made up by people who are adverse to actually cracking open a history book and learning about the historical roots of racism.
Don’t try to interpret history simply see it for the lies and truths it is and only then can mankind honestly change its future toward a greatness we can’t imagine.
In other words, “Forget history: myth-making is far more important”.
Timothy, I do not think that a retreat into romantic mysticism regarding race and nationalism offers the human race anything but a swift trip into genocide and extinction. I think that this point have been proven time and again, all over the world, and it amazes me that someone would bald-facedly propose such a thing in this day and age.
Truly, romantic nationalism is the point where the Stormfront crowd stands on common ground with many black nationalists. It’s no wonder that Marcus Garvey thought it would be a good idea to negotiate with the KKK back in the day.
The only thing I find amusing in all this is the constant insistance of people like J that romantic nationalism is somehow an African philosophy when its roots are very well known and located in the German reaction to the Enlightenment.
The spectacle of so-called “afro-centrists” dressed up in philosophical Bavarian hats and lederhosen, which they claim as “traditional African garb”, makes me qvell. 😀
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This is like pointing to Oprah and saying that she is the perfect example of the status of blacks in America. Mr. Abdulmutallab is not the typical example of an African immigrant, by any stretch of the imagination.
@ Natasha
I think we were talking about a specific kind of immigrant there—the kind that comes across as arrogant and superior. What we were discussing was the possibility that some of the perceived arrogance may come, not from African superiority, but from “Rich Kid” superiority. I was siting the Abdulmutallab case as a perfect example of that particular kind of rich African kid, not as the perfect example of the average African immigrant.
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Racism as global phenomenon
As quite a few scholars say racism is essentially a characteristic of the ‘White/Caucasian race’.
and you can see its manifestation in early history and it is observed subsequently.
This is what the historical records show. If you have any historical data to reject the premise – then do feel free to bring them forward…
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King,
I think we were talking about a specific kind of immigrant there—the kind that comes across as arrogant and superior.”
You might have been, but NG was not. As per their first comment.
When you quoted this part of NG’s post “Most of the people I know are what you would call the “cream of the crop” They do in fact choose to study outside Nigeria because they can afford it.” and then began “perfect example…” it seemed as if you were backing that observation. If you were not, my mistake.
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My last comment is directed at you Thad
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@ Natasha W
Ahh… Yes, I can see why you thought so. No, I only meant to suggest that the the “rich kid” model is valid, if not pervasive.
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@J
As quite a few scholars say racism is essentially a characteristic of the ‘White/Caucasian race’.
These are the politicians-cum-scholars that you find on sites like Metapedia, neh J? 😀
I would say that racism was invented by modern Europeans, yes. But the idea of the “Causcasian race” itself was invented by modern Europeans, so it’s difficult to see how that can be an essential characteristic of a group of people, J.
Unless, of course, one BELIEVES a priori that said group of racist European scientists were correct in their analysis of the world…
How “Afrocentric” would that be, J?
And there’s a further problem: in this classical racist thought you apparently agree with, J (the sorts of ideas bandied about by late 19th century European racists), “white” and “caucasian” were two different classifications entirely.
“Caucasian” was a specific race. “White” was a skin color. Not all people who had white skin were Causcasian.
One would think that a person who claims to be as concerned about racism as yourself, J, would at least have a nodding acquaintence with these basic facts.
As for racism being seen in early history…
J, show us one example from early history were peoples believed in race. Just one. The examples you have given so far confuse bigotry, ethnic hatred and class prejudice with racism.
Every people on the face of the earth believes that God has chosen them as the best. That belief in and of itself does not constitute racism.
Every people on the face of the earth has peoples it hates and which it stereotypes as inferior. This is also not necessarily racism.
To get racism, you need to have a belief in humanity as divided up in stable and discrete subspecies which are all ranked heriarchically, comparativelt to one another.
When the Talmud says “your kids are gonna come out black and ugly”, that’s not racism, for obviously if Jewish kids can come out that way, it means that “black and ugly” isn’t some sort of discrete, stable and different biological group. It DOES indicate a certain negrophobia, though not in the sense ascribed to Franz Fanon. Again, in agricultural civilizations, “darker” meant lower-class because it meant one was exposed to the sun. “Negrophobia” in these instances is not necessarily related to a belief in the inferiority of a discrete group of people with black skin.
The Indian crapola you cited simply states that there was one group of peoples who were darker and another who were lighter and that they had a conflict. Again, that’s not necessarily racist. There are lighter and darker groups in Africa and they often fight among each other, but that doesn’t mean they believe in heirarchically-organized biological subspecies.
As for the historical record, you have yet to refer to it, J. You seem to think that citing Aryan supremacists on the internet is the same thing as doing historical research.
And you went to college you say?
O rly? 😀
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Che Guevara:
“We, politely referred to as “underdeveloped,” in truth are colonial, semi-colonial or dependent countries. We are countries whose economies have been distorted by imperialism, which has abnormally developed those branches of industry or agriculture needed to complement its complex economy. “Underdevelopment,” or distorted development, brings a dangerous specialization in raw materials, inherent in which is the threat of hunger for all our peoples. We, the “underdeveloped,” are also those with the single crop, the single product, the single market. A single product whose uncertain sale depends on a single market imposing and fixing conditions. That is the great formula for imperialist economic domination.”
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Thad,
We best leave the discussion here then because:
1. You are unaware of the significance of India and how its impact is even being felt today.
2. Its clear you do not seem to be conversant with the curse of Ham (bible) and its relevance for Blacks and slavery.
3. You have not yet mentioned that before the ‘race in racism’ arised. Whites had already designated themselves as different to POC, on the basis of their ‘Whiteness’ and had committed genocide etc.
Even if we step outside of language, language merely is a ‘descriptor’ created by humans. We will see Whites (specifically those from the Western nations ) behaving inhumanely to those they designated ‘ the other’
4. What is intersting even No_Slappz did not deny this reality of Western nations. What he suggested, that ‘it was the times’ and its best to put it to one side and move forward accordingly. You seem to be in a ‘quandry’ how best to describe this reality.
5. Forgive me here, you ask ‘And you went to college you say? I have not once said anything about my education on this board. The ‘sad reality’ is that you make your living teaching (ie ‘corrupting’, if much of what you have to say here on this blog is anything to go by) at a ‘University’.
I think you need to take a step back and take a long deep look at your lecturing skills, and also how the complex duality of ‘defending White civilisation’ and yet wanting to appear to be a ‘White liberal’ may impact upon the knowledge you accrue and what you teach to your students, especially the Black ones
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You are unaware of the significance of India and how its impact is even being felt today.
J, a wikisearch by you which turns up an Indian talking about conflicts between Aryan-speaking peoples and Dravidians is hardly a “significant find” in the history of race.
Give it a rest. Either put up or shut up.
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Thad
As a lecturer you are sure ignorant regarding the subject.
And too arrogant -here read foolish – to admit that you do not know nothing about such theories discussing the origins of the racism.
It was Oscar Wilde who forewarned that ‘all those incapable of learning become teachers’
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J, if I were your lecturer, it would be my duty to tell you that wikischolarship is a piss-poor substitute for actually going to a library and reading the classics.
There’s not a professor on the face of this Earth which would accept your links to racist websites as a decent source for the kind of argument you are trying to make. And that is independent of color or nationality, J.
And if you want to talk “arrogance”, I can’t conceive of a more arrogant position than holding up a site like Metapedia as an up-to-date source on race and biology based on a 15 second websearch.
Not only is that arrogant, J, it’s a clear indication that you really, truly don’t give a f*** about the topic you claim to know so much about: racism. You’re more interested in banging a political drum than you are in anything like discovering the truth.
Furthermore. it’s not arrogant for me to point out ignorance that tries to masquerade as an informed opinion, J. You only find it arrogant because you got pwned on a topic you know sweet f***-all about. You’re the kind of yahoo who believes that everyone should “respect your opinion”, even when your opinion is 100%, unadulterated horse manure, backed up by a life of sitting in front of a T.V. set or computer screen.
Now why don’t you just call the waaaaaaaaambulance, perchance to find someone who’s willing to slap some Bengay on your wounded ego, hmmm?
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Oh dear ‘Mad in Th(e he)ad’!!
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Hello from South Africa to all my African brothers and sisters!!!
PARRRP PAAARAARP PAAARP (Vuvuzela greetings to you all)
Titan, Tay, you said it all.
Just watched the Spain – Germany game. For all those who were put off coming to my fabulous country by stupid afro-pessimistic media reports- you’ve missed out BIG TIME!!
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I hope to hell the Dutch don’t win on Sunday, Redd. Can you imagine the size of the riot?
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@ Thad
Define “racism”. You seem to be working on the definition that racism means “a dislike for another sort of people”. That’s not its definition. There’s a big difference, for example, between racism and ethnocentrism or even simple bigotry.
So perhaps this discussion would be improved if you tried defining your basic terms, first. Note that I’ve already defined what I mean by racism: a belief in persistent and discrete human biological subspecies which are ordered in hierarchical fashion. What’s your operative definition?
If you’re point is “People are a$$h0les to other people and Europeans have a record for being some of the world’s biggest a$$h0les”, that’s a thesis I can get behind. If your point is “Europeans invented racism”, I would agree with that too.
But if your point – like J’s – is that white supremacy is some sort of ur-ideology among Europeans which has united them against the rest of the world from prehistoric times on down to today, then I’m sorry: that’s romantic BS made up by people who are adverse to actually cracking open a history book and learning about the historical roots of racism.
This is exactly how it appears in the dictionary.
1.
A belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2.
A policy, system of government etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.
Hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
These are the three definitions I found in a dictionary in a library on Racism. I will follow the first one. Now I agree with everything you said above except the highlighted part. Now I don’t believe that racism was started at the begin gin of time because I believe everybody then was in a free for all melee against each other. I believe at the beginning of time race meant nothing, compared to who going to have those resources. No one cared about race more than they did eating. Now an it is important to understand the importance of the definition of race alone for my next point. I think race as far differentiating humans refers to skin color only but I found yet another definition that supposes that it is: an arbitrary classification of modern humans, sometimes, esp. formerly, based on any or a combination of various physical characteristics, as skin color, facial form, or eye shape, and now frequently based on such genetic markers as blood groups. Now scientist speculates today on what exactly drove the neatherdal to extinction. Some speculate that cro-magnums (who we are directly descended from) systematically hunted them down and killed them. Also saying that Crow-magnums must have met Neathherdals and found them as competition for an already staggering food supply and decided that they should be done away with. Now still some propose this theory as only one of the causes of extinction as well as others such as problems procreating, finding food, and disease. Some even say the Neantherdals diapered because of constant interbreeding with Crow-magnums. Also the book that states this info is and I am sure that there are others that say it also is “Neanderthals revisited: new approaches and perspectives by Katerina Hervati and Terry Harrison. I don’t like to nor what to state where I get info because it is a lack of time but I feel that that was necessary.
Ok now on to my point they killed them apparently because of competion and from what I read here had no influence of destroying them because of how they looked. Because the neantherdals must have been somewhat attractive to the cro-magnums in order for the Cro-mags to mate with them by my assumption. They didn’t have to devalue them to kill them either because it was all about resources according to scientist because they agree that cro-mags killed neantherdals but speculate if it was the sole source of extinction and make no reference to cro-magnums thinking less of neantherdals. Now this is the destruction of a species of human like creatures based on purely resources. What would you call this? I wouldn’t call it racism because to them it is purely just business with no strings attached. Also bear in mind this is before what we today may perceive as right and wrong so labels may not have to be mad here. But on another note Thad I would like your help in describing this because I can’t say what it would be without putting a label dealing with some form of racist ethnic cleansing.
Now I just showed an example of killing of a race of people based on non racist reasons purely for resources. Also keep in mind that they needed no such devaluing to do this acts to another group of living things.
Now Thad you said that white supremecacy was not an act that united the rest of the world against the rest of the world. I severely disagree and so do history my friend. No I am sure Europeans killed each other for all types of reasons before the institutionalized slavery that they created around the 17 or 18 century for Africans. Now we all know this shit was just business to them and not really personal at the beginning but they living in a time of advanced morals and beliefs couldn’t just invoke harsh and cruel treatment on a group of people without first devaluing the Africans by making them appear less than human. Which they did through physical depictions which were racist (refer back to definition 1) which showed them as less than human. With this to ease their conscience they did whatever they wanted to Africans only to make their countries rich beyond their wildest dreams. But here also seeing how many black women they raped and made mistresses in the process they must have had some type of attraction to the black women at least they devalued. Now Slavery was something that all Europeans dabbled in to some extent and among each other justified. How come every race they met they devalued to make money off of such as the Asians and Native Americans of Americas? Why didn’t they see differences and not try to take without warrant. During this time in Europe they assumed they were just better than everybody else in the whole world no matter how great the wonders the people they met already obtained without them. I think they still assume this today. Europeans traveled the world srewing everybody they met. The only race that bounced back big time was Japan and China simply because those Asians didn’t let Europeans screw them as bad as they did Africa. Also simply put Africa was closer. But every race of different people who welcomed Europeans only to in some way got screwed. Blacks and Arabs cohabitated without all that nonsense even though Muslims enslaved some of the Africans who didn’t convert when they came. But it wasn’t like what the Europeans did and if they converted to Islam then they were freed.
I hope everyone see’s my point in that Europeans devalued others while raising their status and beliefs above all others. This isn’t even new or discovery it’s pretty standard. It’s just people like your boy Thad here who can’t live with the fact his ancestors did some pretty fucked up shit and continue to do some pretty fucked up shit that continue to destabilize parts of the world today. We all come from the same original ancestor but Europeans mad sure that our differences were made clear to be different henceforth. Also all our ancestors did some pretty fucked up stuff but who how many people can say that their Ancestors fucked up whole continents and shit. I can’t say that for mines but you could really go so far to say that for Europeans. Its ok I don’t hate you, I actually think you are a pretty intelligent guy Thad who just tries to come up with similar but holistically different examples to justify your thoughts. Its ok let it our say my ancestors fucked up whole continents future and continue today. Just let it out because real truth rarely tastes good but it is always satisfying when you just accept it. Africa today can overcome its problems if it works among it selves and stop listening to no offense but white people for awhile. Don’t cut them out but just marginalize their influence on your way of life but that may be impossible seeing how Europeans damn near run everything. One thing about power is that it is never given passed among a specific group or taken by force. Because the truth of the matter is racism, greed, and war are just distractions put on all races to keep them from asking the real questions or finding the real truth, because people with real power don’t bother themselves with such trivial things because at the end of the day its left with who has it and who doesn’t. But common folks will always find themselves distracted by what people with real power what you to believe. Look at Star Wars for example. Palpatine was the guy controlling both the separatist and the republic throughout the entire plot. Manipulating both sides into his whim while the whole time keeping himself concealed until he was completely ready to assume dominant control. Everyone should know that that is how the world is controlled on both sides by the same person. Or for another example read Plato’s “Allegory of the Cave” illusions being projected in front of you by an unknown source. At least in his metaphor you can leave the cave but for most if not all people these days leaving the cave is death.
True evil and manipulation is not what you see in the movies as the definitive bad guy who kills people and here comes the good guy to save the world. No it’s much smarter than that. It knows basic human weaknesses and pleasures. It saves you from the bullet while hooking you on drugs. It gives you money but takes your job. True evil, True manipulation, True control is neither black nor white.
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Sorry the highlight didn’t show up on the text so then basically Thad I disagreed with your last paragraph I paste of your in my post. The one that starts off as if your point…
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Timothy, I’m, very sorry. I wrote a very long post, responding in depth to your points and then the web seems to have ate it.
I ask your forgiveness, because you took the time to write a long post and deserve a good response and I don’t know if I have the heart now to go back and rewrite everything.
Let’s start be restating the main point: racism is a European construct built around 1500 (give or take a couple of centuries) in response to the situation of colonial contact and conmquest. It did not unite the Europeans into some “us against the world” super race.
Your point seems to be that, historically, the Europeans were a$$holes and I certainly wouldn’t deny that. The question at hand, however, isn’t this. The question at hand is “was there something special about the Europeans that made them this way”?
Now one of the problems is that it’s difficult to fight rhetoric with facts on this board. Let’s take one point which you bring up: Islamic slavery.
On another discussion on this same board, several people were talking about how badly Islam hosed Africa precisely because they are trying to show that Africa got a crappy deal from everyone. But were I to bring that up here, I’ll be accused of employing the “Arab slave trader” motiff. In fact, ANY discussion of Arab slaving that actually talks about what went on will be brushed away as an example of this. But let me just say this, given that YOU brought it up: no, Islamic slavery wasn’t some nicer and calmer version of slavery which one could escape from simply by chanting the words “I accept Islam”. The Turks and other Islamic people employed hundreds of thousands of African slaves and mistreated them EXACTLY like the Europeans did. The only main difference was that the Turks never became a capitalist power during their time, so they never had the “brilliant” idea of turning slavery into capital and regularizing and rationalizing the African trade. Capitalism did that and capitalism during this period of history was very much a European affair.
As to the African and Americans’ supposed subhuman status, again, you’re simply wrong. Show me ONE example of significant numbers of Europeans in 1500-1600 who believed that these peoples weren’t human. The belief, in fact, was that they were FULLY human and this is what allowed them to be enslaved.
You see, medeival Europeans believed that humans have souls and that said souls could only be eternally saved through Christianity. The world, in their eyes, was dividied into three types of peoples: Christians, heretics and pagans. Heretics knew The Word of Jesus but rejected it. They were thus evil and could be killed and enslaved. Pagans didn’t know about Jesus and thus SHOULD be enslaved precisely becauser that would save their immirtal souls.
In all cases, the logic was that it was these peoples’ HUMANITY which called for their enslavement. The Islamics beleived exactly the same thing, btw.
Do you know WHY the Portuguese sought to go around Africa? Partially, yes, it was to find a route to India and make money. But it was ALSO to find a route to the Kingdom of Prestor John – what we today know as Ethiopia. Why? Because the CHRISTIAN kingdom of the BLACK Prestor John would allow them to attack Islam through the back door.
And this is precisely what they did.
When the Portuguese arrived in Ethiopia, did they enslave the Ethiopian Christians? No. They ALLIED with them and, in fact, INTERMARRIED with them.
Was Ethiopia ever a slaving territory? No. Why not? Because of this early Christian connection.
If it was race and not faith which motivated the early European explorers, Timothy, why then didn’t they slave in Ethiopia? How do you explain Portugal’s envolvement with the Kingdom of the Kongo if, as you state, early modern Europeans all believed in race?
You see Timothy, we Brazilians and Portuguese have a slight advantage over you Anglos when it comes to discussing the history of early colonialism because our ancestors (white, black and red) were involved in it. I bet that about the only thing you’ve ever heard of this period, in school at least, was the Treaty of the Tordesillas. The fact of the matter is, you are talking about early colonial history in africa, but what have you actually READ about it?
I had to read about this stuff in high school.
Racism only really begins to take off following the collapse of the Portuguese overseas empire to the Dutch, French, Spanish and English. It’s in the late 1600s – under these peoples’ impetus – that the first polygenic theories are devloped, casting africans, americans and asians and inferior or even non-human species.
This is a simple historical fact, man, and there’s not a historian out there of any reasonable caliber who would deny it.
If you want some excellent information about this, let me suggest you read Nell Painter’s recently published The History of White People.
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Timothy:
I can second what Thad is saying from the point of view of American history: it was not till the 1660s that the British in America used race as an excuse for slavery. Before that it was religion. Religion means they saw Africans as humans: no one talks about the religion of horses or apes.
As far as I know the description of blacks as near-apes did not appear in the English-speaking world till the 1700s. If anyone knows of an earlier instance I would be most interested in knowing about it.
In any case, slavery came first, racism second. Xenophobia might be “natural” but racism is not. Racism is political, it is about making might seem right.
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Yes, there’s a tendency for people to think that European colonialism was a homogenous phenomenon. But the views of early Spanish and Portuguese explorers and settlers like Columbus and Da Gama on race probably bore little resemblance to those of 18th century racialists like Jefferson and Linnaeus. The marriage between Pocahontas and John Rolfe stirred controversy in England not because it was an “interracial” marriage but rather because Pocahontas was a royal and John Rolfe a commoner.
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With regard to:
“As far as I know the description of blacks as near-apes did not appear in the English-speaking world till the 1700s. If anyone knows of an earlier instance I would be most interested in knowing about it.”
I had quoted from Peter Fryer and placed it on this blog somewhere that the connection betwen ‘Blacks and Apes’ started 1660s. When I have access to the book, or perhaps the parts we want is online. Hang on while I check
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In any case, slavery came first, racism second. Xenophobia might be “natural” but racism is not. Racism is political, it is about making might seem right.
Well, xenophobia is political as well, because there is no “natural” way to tell who belongs to your group and who doesn’t. (And what makes your group in the first place).
I’d say “othering” in a basic sense of the word is natural, but it’s in no way guided by instinct, like with animals. Animals sense who their enemies are, and who their allies are. People can’t do that. They have to LEARN. It can into any direction, as I’m sure you know.
As for “natural” aversion, there is always the uncanny valley hypothesis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley
But this thing can’t explain xenophobia or racism. Some anthropologists believed it could explain why whites and blacks might not “like” each other, but I don’t buy it. (Different skin colour might seem “unnatural” first time you see an individual with much darker/lighter skin colour- but I don’t buy it can make anybody look less than human).
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Abagond p. 137…but probably best to start from p. 136
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=J8rVeu2go8IC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Staying+power+peter+fryer&source=bl&ots=Mr_94fSLHX&sig=fEqTlNY7eG-8i5_bEmxBNS3-SRw&hl=en&ei=7kg3TL3rBom6jAfo3MWBBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false
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Racism is political, it is about making might seem right.
Exactly. Which brings up another point: none of this was about making Europeans feel better about themselves. It was about naturalizing dominance so that it would be harder to confront or throw off.
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Fryer seems to be supporting the thesis that this connection between blacks and apes started being articulated at the end of the 17th century.
Calling blacks “devilish” is one thing, as is accusing them of worshipping the Devil. This is, in fact, precisely in line with earlier views of ensalveable humanity.
What we need to see is a specific linkage on the lines of “look here, these blacks are not humans but apes”.
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“The Turks and other Islamic people employed hundreds of thousands of African slaves and mistreated them EXACTLY like the Europeans did.”
Sometimes worse. In my opinion there are few abuses more extreme than turning a person into a eunuch.
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Abagond,
With regard to
“I can second what Thad is saying from the point of view of American history: it was not till the 1660s that the British in America used race as an excuse for slavery. Before that it was religion”
Just to point out with regard to this, it could not be ‘race’ because the term ‘race’ and its various classifications had NOT existed as yet. Something I gave by way of illustration previously with regard to ‘Philosophy of Language’.
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Who’s making semantic arguments now, J? 😀
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Hey! I love all this serious often heated discussion about racism and where it began and who was primarily responsible for it. Its certainly can be educationally, at times, following all these posts.
I would just like to comment though on a few points Thad, in my view, you may not be directly addressing.
From my own readings and understanding on racism I would say that I probably agree with 80 -90% of what you have said here. However, and this is what I pick up in the continuing dialogs between yourself J and now Timothy; these explanations do not account for or seek to explain why historically:
(1) White Europeans/Americans appear to be the only ethnic group to have systematically, exploitatively and politically orchestrated a racial doctrine along the lines of racism as you’ve defined it. No other non-white ethnic groups of people have achieved or embarked on anything like this. Why is this?
(2)
I have to disagree here. IT IS PRECISELY about making themselves feel better about down grading fellow human beings as sub-human. As has already been stated, and I am sure you will agree with, racism is NOT natural just as killing or murdering another human being is not. There needs to be a strong justification and it needs to be internalized to the point were you believe it to be unquestioned second nature. This also lends support to your point about racism being heterogeneous in its application by Europeans. Just as an example contrast the behaviour of the Boers or Afrikaners in South Africa to say the French or Spanish.
However, the question still remains why are there no direct comparable examples of peoples of colour behaving in this non-humanisng way to other human beings?
Maybe some of this has been commented on elsewhere and I apologize if it has but it seemed to me to be missing from this discussion
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J:
Thanks for the Peter Fryer link!
According to Peter Fryer in his history of blacks in Britain the whole thing of blacks being near-apes goes back at least to Thomas Herbert in 1634. Here Herbert compares blacks to baboons, wondering if they have sex:
“Their language is rather apishly than articulately founded, with whom ’tis thought they have unnatural mixture…Having a voice ‘twixt humane and beast, makes that supposition to be of more credit, that they have a beastly copulation or conjuncture. So as considering the resemblance they bear with Baboons, which I could observe kept frequent company with the Women, their speech…rather agreeing with beasts than men…these may be said to be the descent of Satyrs, if any such ever were.”
Fryer says that while these traveller’s tales did lead to ignorant ideas about blacks among the English they were not turned into a racist ideology until the 1700s to defend slavery.
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Kwamla, is that you in your avatar? If so, you are a very handsome guy.
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The question “why whites, and not others” is a very good one, but there doesn’t seem to be an easy answer. Unless, of course, one believes there’s something naturally wrong with white people, something evil in their DNA, for example. (Which doesn’t make sense because genetically there is no such thing as “whites”). So there must be another thing.
An obvious answer is: they had (have) power and their way of life (economy) required slaves. Not to mention they had technology.
But that still doesn’t explain why whites, and not others. And there isn’t a definitive answer. The best guess is that it has a lot to do with geography, climate and biology.
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Damn good question Kwamla, brilliantly put, am right behind you on that one! 🙂
An ambitious question that on one hand POC’s aren’t equipped to answer without sounding too accusatory towards Europeans, but quite a minefield for white commenters that we’re likely to get some reticence on the subject. Thad if you can please..? 🙂
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My guess for Kwamla’s question:
1. Psychology: Christianity had led them to believe they are better than everyone else, that those who are different are screwed up. Racism uses that very same template. It got applied to physical appearance because:
2. Opportunity: with guns and ocean travel they were able to take over and rule lands where people looked markedly different.
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^My answer as well.
I don’t think it has anything to do with Europeans being innately cruel.
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@ Kwamla
you said, “However, the question still remains why are there no direct comparable examples of peoples of colour behaving in this non-humanisng way to other human beings?
In terms of Old World / New World slave trade, I can’t think of any. I could talk about the Inca being the “true conquistadores – enslavers” prior to the arrival of the Spanish, but I’m not sure that is really what you’re looking for.
Perhaps Thad can share… (???)
By the way, I enjoyed reading what you posted. -Thanks…
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White Europeans/Americans appear to be the only ethnic group to have systematically, exploitatively and politically orchestrated a racial doctrine along the lines of racism as you’ve defined it. No other non-white ethnic groups of people have achieved or embarked on anything like this. Why is this?
Because racism is a philosophy that grows out of the early modern period of capitalism, which was bent on primitive accumulation through forced labor. Given that pretty much only the Europeans were running capitalist economies at the time… there’s your answer. Define racism as something that only Europeans COULD be doing and it shouldn’t surprise you to find only Europeans doing it.
However, you’re wrong when you say no other groups have embarked on anything like this if by “like” you mean ideologies which naturalize social differences into “superior” and “inferior” classes of people. That sort of thing is endemic across humanity. Europeans were simply the only ones to scientificize this sort of thinking through the use of “race” or subspecies. ALL human groups have treated other groups like s***, however, and made a profit at it, too. Capitalism just allowed Europeans to rationalize and expand this sort of thing.
IT IS PRECISELY about making themselves feel better about down grading fellow human beings as sub-human.
I wonder why so many commentators on this site feel the need to presume that there’s something totally evil about Europeans and yet also simultaneously believe that self-same Europeans need to work over time to placate their consciences. I doubt most of the Americans and British posting here lose much sleep over the evil their countries dos in Iraq and Afganistan. In fact, I bet they hardly think about it.
Evil doesn’t work that way, Kwamla. I agree with Hanna Arendt: evil is banalized and, as such, it simply doesn’t impactt many peoples’ consciences. In the exact same way that you and most people here don’t care about what’s going on Iraq and Afganistan, most 19th century whites could’ve cared less about slavery. Most 19th century whites, in fact, were too busy struggling to stay alive to worry much about anything that wasn’t right under their nose.
And when we turn to the elites, by their own words in letters, books and jornals, slave owners worried a hell of a lot more about getting their throats cut in a revolt than they did about the moral implications of holding slaves, per se. Sure, towards the end of slavery in the English-speaking world, after the Second Great Protestant Awakening, there might have been some remorse. But again, this is where you anglos and your historical shallowness on this issue leads you false. You act as if the American south from 1800-1865 was the NORM for slave holding. Portugal, however, had been pulling slaves out of Africa for close to FIVE CENTURIES by the time Thomas Jefferson got around to bedding Sally Hemmings. There is nothing at all to indicate that any significant ammount of people in the luso-speaking world felt any remorse over what was being done.
In fact, Wilberforce’s followers only got Brazil to (more-or-less) agree to shut down the African trade via threat of war and commercial embargo. Their moral arguments were so much piss in the wind in the Brazilian parliment at the time. When slavery was FINALLY abolished here (almost a quarter century after it was abolished in the States), the resulting political embroglio destroyed the Imperial government.
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Thad
With regard to:
“Fryer seems to be supporting the thesis that this connection between blacks and apes started being articulated at the end of the 17th century.
Calling blacks “devilish” is one thing, as is accusing them of worshipping the Devil. This is, in fact, precisely in line with earlier views of ensalveable humanity.
What we need to see is a specific linkage on the lines of “look here, these blacks are not humans but apes”.
This is exactly what I mean about able to read, understand what a text (or someone is saying) and how having a dialogue is so very difficult, if not impossible..time and time again.
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I’ll let Abagond’s words stand on this one, J.
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Kwmala,
I think the essence of the theories with regard to White racism can be summed up thus
1. The idea that living in northern ice age European with a very harsh environment, meant that Whites had to develop essentially a ‘survival mentality’. Here we are speaking of the first Whites ie those who de-melaneted from ‘Black Africans’ who were living day by day minute by minute. Diop highights a number of traits like xenophobia, hatred of women, warlike and so forth.
2. The second theory suggests that White people realise that there is a ‘potential’ that they can be ‘eliminated’ from the earth because they lack colour. In other words if Whites have children with POC, then in essence any offsprings will NOT appear ‘White skinned’.
Its this fear of ‘genetic annihilation’ which has caused, or so the theory goes, their hatred for all those they have classified as Non-White, in other words those who have melanin within their skin, which manifested itself globally from 1500 AD onwards
Both of these theories do not start at the 1500s but go deep into the White historical past.
Hope this sheds some light at least
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But if your point – like J’s – is that white supremacy is some sort of ur-ideology among Europeans which has united them against the rest of the world from prehistoric times on down to today, then I’m sorry: that’s romantic BS made up by people who are adverse to actually cracking open a history book and learning about the historical roots of racism.
Ok Thad either we agree or we misunderstand each other. J has proven that there was a sub-human racist stigma put on the African people in the 1600 but even if he didn’t prove it I am also mentioned the 1700’s as well. But the exact dates are not very detrimental to my point, which is THAT THROUGH RACISM (WHICH I DEFINED FOR YOU OF A DICTIONARY) EUROPEANS JUSTIFIED SLAVERY AND UNITED THEMSELVES IN SUPERIORITY AMONG ALL OTHER PEOPLE OF THE WORLD. This is my point Thad and it is valid. Also about what you said about Muslim treatment of slaves. Muslim slaves were more of an indentured servant compared to European slaves. Muslim slaves were above non Muslim slaves and non Muslims free men. Muslim slaves weren’t enslaved for and justified by non- human factors. Muslim slaves were at had as many rights religiously as their master. IT IS SIMPLY NOT THE SAME AS HOW EUROPEANS THAD. Please as a scholar and as a human being stop trying to lower the infamy of the atrocities Europeans did by describing other how other people did it. That is the defense of every white mean and it sickens me. Also there was an incident called the Zanj rebellion were slaves were treated badly by Muslims who frayed from the rules of treatment of slaves. Also to mention some to the Muslims who were slave owners were black. It’s just a difference in treatment and viewing of slaves that separate Europeans.
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It’s interesting to note that J’s theories on what make white people so “special” are exactly the same as theories routinely spouted by white supremacists on sites like Stormfront.
The only difference in them is that J valences this whiteness as “bad” while the Stormfront crowd thinks it’s “good”.
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@Kwamla and everybody
About what you said Kwamla which is very interesting question. Like my friend here Thad most white people fail to understand the damage economically, socially, and politically their singular part on slavery did to people all over the world but especially in Africa. Now those who do understand (like Thad) fail to admit that no other people did it like Europeans did. They came in fucked stuff up and left without fixing it never wants to look it in the eye for what it is. Especially American white people. Now every human being is capable of what Europeans did I would think because we are all human but for the past centuries have failed to focus on our similarities than our differences? Mankind is evil by nature we are easily driven by greed and hate because these are such easy emotions to feel and live by because they are selfish at their core. Now if Europeans had just had slave and didn’t do all of the systematic and institutionalized evil they did with it, the world undoubtedly would be a much different place. The thing is that Europeans can’t deny completely what their ancestors did otherwise they wouldn’t hold majority power in the world. Without their white ancestors rape, plunder and domination of other people they would not hold what they have today as collective power.
Human beings love being in things that they feel is better than or exclusive to other people. It is natural. Educated seem to themselves above the intellectually challenged world rich feel as if only other rich understand their desires and situations. It’s in every facet to sororities to frats to country clubs to other esoteric organizations. This is exactly what happen today and then was that we may have our squabbles but the true power never leaves our hands.
I have often wondered what would become of an experiment if I was allowed to take a black baby and a white baby and raise them completely separate of the world we live in because even in a pseudo post racial era there are still just so many racist subtle out there that its unbearable. What would happen with these two kids? Would they hate each other? Would they became great friends and not really care about each other difference. There is a thing as Genetic Memory theory. Now this has a basis in biology, psychology, and even computer science. Now Carl Jung postulated the theory on Genetic Memory of Racism among people. Even here two types one is the memory of habits, customs, myths, and artifacts of social groups. The other one which falls under Jungian psychology deals with memory of memories and feelings of one’s ancestor. Now I say that to say this I am a scientist and the biology aspect is that genetic memory is passed through cell division such as mitosis or meiosis. Now this is not proven so not fact just theory. Also if there are any gamers that read this post then if you played Assassin Creed. The machine called nimbus I think which recollected the memories of the guy’s ancestors through genes that were passed to him for centuries.
Now back to the white and black baby what if there was some sort of genetic memory of past events without the help of reading it in books. Is this possible? Probably not but what if? I do believe some sort of genetic memory is retained throughout generations but simply cannot be assessed. Because there are birds that fly the exact same root that their ancestors did without being taught were to go and when. That is some for m of genetic memory.
Now I know I may have put a lot of scientific mumbo jumbo here and it is quite more elaborate than I specified but I can go into more detail if anyone wants to know. But I am not an expert. I do completely other research; this is just an interest of mind I wish to pursue when I finish school. But other people do research it but not the baby part just the Genetic memory part. The baby part could never be formally done because it would be considered in humane to raise children like that. Then you would have to specify what they would learn because history can make a racist more than society can at times. I would be most interested to see what would happen when they read the definition of black and see negative connotations and the definition of white or light and see such positive connotations. They will undoubtedly look at each other and compare and draw assumptions strictly on that analogy. But maybe they will go beyond that and stick with how they both have are anatomically the same and share some of the same common interest and beliefs. Who knows right the possibilities are many but it simply can’t be done because it is immoral.
Human beings love being in things that they feel is better than or exclusive to other people. It is natural. Educated seem to themselves above the intellectually challenged world rich feel as if only other rich understand their desires and situations. It’s in every facet to sororities to frats to country clubs to other esoteric organizations. This is exactly what happen today and then was that we may have our squabbles but the true power never leaves our hands.
I have often wondered what would become of an experiment if I was allowed to take a black baby and a white baby and raise them completely separate of the world we live in because even in a pseudo post racial era there are still just so many racist subtle out there that its unbearable. What would happen with these two kids? Would they hate each other? Would they became great friends and not really care about each other difference. There is a thing as Genetic Memory theory. Now this has a basis in biology, psychology, and even computer science. Now Carl Jung postulated the theory on Genetic Memory of Racism among people. Even here two types one is the memory of habits, customs, myths, and artifacts of social groups. The other one which falls under Jungian psychology deals with memory of memories and feelings of one’s ancestor. Now I say that to say this I am a scientist and the biology aspect is that genetic memory is passed through cell division such as mitosis or meiosis. Now this is not proven so not fact just theory. Also if there are any gamers that read this post then if you played Assassin Creed. The machine called nimbus I think which recollected the memories of the guy’s ancestors through genes that were passed to him for centuries.
Now back to the white and black baby what if there was some sort of genetic memory of past events without the help of reading it in books. Is this possible? Probably not but what if? I do believe some sort of genetic memory is retained throughout generations but simply cannot be assessed. Because there are birds that fly the exact same root that their ancestors did without being taught were to go and when. That is some for m of genetic memory.
Now I know I may have put a lot of scientific mumbo jumbo here and it is quite more elaborate than I specified but I can go into more detail if anyone wants to know. But I am not an expert. I do completely other research; this is just an interest of mind I wish to pursue when I finish school. But other people do research it but not the baby part just the Genetic memory part. The baby part could never be formally done because it would be considered in humane to raise children like that. Then you would have to specify what they would learn because history can make a racist more than society can at times. I would be most interested to see what would happen when they read the definition of black and see negative connotations and the definition of white or light and see such positive connotations. They will undoubtedly look at each other and compare and draw assumptions strictly on that analogy. But maybe they will go beyond that and stick with how they both have are anatomically the same and share some of the same common interest and beliefs. Who knows right the possibilities are many but it simply can’t be done because it is immoral.
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@Timothy
J has proven that there was a sub-human racist stigma put on the African people in the 1600 but even if he didn’t prove it I am also mentioned the 1700’s as well.
Personally, I’ve been claiming that racism develops in the early modern period, around about 1500, give or take a century or two.
So we can argue about whether it was 1645, 1700, or 1530: the fact of the matter is that it develops in reaction to Europes contact with and conquest of radically different-looking peoples and not before.
J’s “proof” hasn’t changed that one bit.
THAT THROUGH RACISM (WHICH I DEFINED FOR YOU OF A DICTIONARY) EUROPEANS JUSTIFIED SLAVERY AND UNITED THEMSELVES IN SUPERIORITY AMONG ALL OTHER PEOPLE OF THE WORLD.
That’s a very interesting definition of “unite” you must have there, Tim, seeing as how Europeans were at each other’s throats throughout the modern period, to the point of even arming and training non-whites to fight other whites.
Let’s look at the Dutch attempt to conquer Brazil in the 17th century, for example. The Portuguese armed and trained African slaves and free Blacks and Indians and made an army made up of blacks, whites and reds to fight the Dutch and push them out of Brazil. They then armed and equipped an army and reconquered Angola from the Dutch, once again using slaves and free people of color as troops.
So let me see if I understand this then: to you, Portugual arming and equipping slaves to fight the Dutch is actually Portugal UNITING with the Dutch to maintain white superiority across the planet?
How do you figure that, exactly, Timothy?
And let me point out that the thing I describe above is not some one-off wierd occurrance: it happened all throughout the history of European colonialism.
So it seems to me, Timothy, that the only way we can say “Europe united” under white supremacy is if we ignore 90% of the historical record which clearly shows that Europeans were happy to ally with non-whites in order to kill and defeat their European rivals.
Muslim slaves were more of an indentured servant compared to European slaves.
Sorry, that’s not true. We have some absolutely hair-raising stories about Muslim slavery. To begin with, it varied radically from place to place and time to time.
Muslim slaves were at had as many rights religiously as their master. IT IS SIMPLY NOT THE SAME AS HOW EUROPEANS THAD. Please as a scholar and as a human being stop trying to lower the infamy of the atrocities Europeans did by describing other how other people did it.
First of all, to say that something was not the same isn’t to say that it’s better. Muslim slavery varied across Islam and some variants of it were absolutely horrible. This is a fact of the historical record, Timothy, and as a scholar, I’m not bound to toss the historical record out the window because it makes you feel bad.
Secondly, what strange moral world are you living in that you think mentioning other peoples’ atrocities somehow excuses the Europeans’? That’s not my point at all. My point is quite clear: there is no special spiritual, moral, or physical characteristic which somehow makes white people (however you define them) more evil than any other people on the planet. To make claim that evil is endemic in human affairs is not a claim that European evil is somehow OK.
Now, if you’d like to discuss what slavery meant in Muslim lands, I’d be happy to do so, but then please don’t accuse me of taking this topic off track.
Like my friend here Thad most white people fail to understand the damage economically, socially, and politically their singular part on slavery did to people all over the world but especially in Africa.
How about you show me where I “fail to understand the damage done by slavery to Africa”? I haven’t even talked about that issue on this post yet, IIRC.
Are strawmen to your liking, Timothy? Can’t handle what I’m actually saying (“Europeans aren’t any more essentially evil than any other group of humans”) so now you have to present my argument as something completely different and then argue against that?
That’s a pretty sleazy rhetorical trick, man.
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With regard to:
“My point is quite clear: there is no special spiritual, moral, or physical characteristic which somehow makes white people (however you define them) more evil than any other people on the planet. To make claim that evil is endemic in human affairs is not a claim that European evil is somehow OK.”
This is where perspectives become very important.
To talk of ‘evil’, brings about its own problems and definingthe agument as uch is very misleading..
However, there is another side to this, what a euro-centred scholar would not be aware off and Timothy has alluded to it.
In the thinking of those African Centred scholars like Diop, M. Ani much of what ordinary people might refer to as ‘evil’ is just ‘normal’ behaviour within European culture.
Its only becomes ‘evil’ when its removed from the Western cultural complex, and placed in another cultural complex’. From the historical record we can sight the ‘Native Americans’.
And this is why these scholars suggest that White Caucasian is characterised by xenophobia, an extreme patriarchy, competitiveness etc, as a way of life.
This does not mean that other cultures had there own issues, and some aspects of the above., what it means is thet its was not etched into the psyche and culture like say when you examine the Spartan state and/or way of life.
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Edit: (again) he he – Do forgive me, those words in capitals constitute the edit
And this is why these scholars suggest that White Caucasian SOCIETY/CULTURE GOING BACK THOUSANDS OF YEARS is characterised by xenophobia, an extreme patriarchy, competitiveness etc, as a way of life.
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In the thinking of those African Centred scholars like Diop, M. Ani much of what ordinary people might refer to as ‘evil’ is just ‘normal’ behaviour within European culture.
And let’s not forget that this is also the thinking of “Afrocentric scholar” (so named by you, J) Michael Bradley, who nonetheless apparently believes that Jews are a greater threat. 😀
And this is why these scholars suggest that White Caucasian is characterised by xenophobia, an extreme patriarchy, competitiveness etc, as a way of life.
So “white Caucasians”, who are properly the people of the Caucasus mountains and who have been privileged targets for both European and Islamic slavers over the past 2000 years, are somehow the great evil bastards behind African slavery, are they?
How does that work, J? And what’s its connection to Michael Bradley’s contention that the Jews are behind it all?
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Btw, can you give us a direct reference where Diop makes the claim that “white caucasian SOCIETY/CULTURE GOING BACK THOUSANDS OF YEARS is characterised by xenophobia”?
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I don’t understand why is so difficult to believe there is no such thing as “white unity” across the world.
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It’s difficult to believe, Mira, because it would mess with certain people’s ideologies. It would make them have to see that history isn’t a two-color, two-dimensional morality play where we can see clear cut good guys and bad guys.
This is particularly difficult for Americans to handle, raised as most of them are on a diet of Hollywood blockbusters. The idea that history isn’t an All-Star Wrestling match is particularly hard for many Americans to swallow.
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@ Thad
Ok I thought you would be willing to admit defeat and pick up another argument but you continually wish to split hairs. All people on this post this is what to expect from most so called intellectual white person when on the subject of race which is accountability. Don’t make excuses just except the fact. Now Thad states that Europeans didn’t unite under racism to justify their institutionalized version of slavery. He also argues that Muslim did horrible things to their slaves also to numb down the atrocities his European ancestors did.
1. Pertaining to thad example in Brazil has nothing to do with my argument and also it’s not even an argument it’s trying to get a false believer to see the truth. Like trying to get Thad out of the Matrix of self sustained beliefs that he nourishes every night before he goes to sleep. The Brazil example has nothing to do with my point you are just splitting hairs. I am stating that in the mind of all Europeans whether they hated each other or loved each other it was a unified belief that Africans were inferior to them and this justified there established slave trade. I even gave an example about how people squabble in certain elite social circles but still maintain that other people are inferior. Black people have fought and died in every war this country has fought but are for the better part of the century was considered inferior. Black soldiers in WWII couldn’t eat at places that German white soldiers could eat. That right their destroys your statement sir. You uphold that because Europeans trained black people to kill other people that that mean that white people weren’t united under a racial belief. Please man opens your eyes. The mind and the world are two different things. Wow killing other white people who want to enslave you so that I can enslave you as well when we are done. Same mentality brother don’t you see what I am establishing. If you got every European together even Americans during the 1600 or 1700s they could have been at war with each or just hated each other guts but at the end of the day they would agree that I am white just like you and blacks and other people are inferior to us. I would show quarter to your white soldiers over my own black soldiers. This is what I am saying I am not saying that Racism ignited them to join hands and sing chum bay ya.
2. About your argument with the Muslim slave owners. Now this is your argument to alleviate some to the negative views against white people in history by making others seem just like you which is so damn stupid. That’s just like if I went on a killing spree where I systematically killed only black people for being inferior and people called me the most evil man in the world and I said hey but Charles Manson did some of the same stuff I did so I am not so bad. Listen this argument for me is not that important because you have not substantial basis. Now my friend we again must go to the mind and how individuals were perceived collectively. Now Europeans think black people subhuman and basically inferior. Muslims think these are people we have defeated in battle while taking their lands and some of they are not non-Muslims. Europeans think even if they become Christian they will still be subhuman and I will even use the bible to justify their slavery. Muslim thinks that if they convert to Islam they can become free and even if they don’t become free if they become Muslim they can practice it in equality. Now we also must bears in mind the fact that these are two different concepts one in racism and the other religion. Muslims saw people as not of my religion in other words infidel and must be made to be slave. They even enslaved Muslims just like them. Now true when Europeans first saw different people they jumped straight to different religion so must go thought but if anyone thinks for a second that Christopher Columbus stepping off his boat and seeing seemly primitive people thought that they were his equals your full of it. That guy saw those people and instantly thought we are better you are not. They could have been Christians with statues of Jesus everywhere and history would have still worked out the way it did. That’s because their mind. They would have just went to war and taken all the Gold and treasures. Muslims didn’t think that Africans were sub-human and didn’t do the Africans like the systematic atrocities that Europeans did. Also some of the Muslims were black so that couldn’t be the case. Middle East and Africa are damn near connected so people were interbreeding before the Muslims came.
3. Ok Thad what you said about White people being inherently evil I don’t think that. I do think personally the white people have a predisposition to racism but not inherently evil. I think that with your moving to surviving in Europe which is pretty resource poor compared to other parts of the world has built into you a way of thinking that I feel threatened compared to everyone else and must take before I ask. Africa has mountains of resources and is still so important today in that aspect. I don’t hate white people nor should anybody else. Hate takes up such extreme amount of energy with no positive outcomes usually. One of my best friends in a white guy. My whole thing is just being able to admit that white people ancestors collectively have caused more damage to the world than all other races combined. That’s fact because its things you don’t read about that’s been done and continue to be done. I remember once I was talking to one my friends who happen to be white and we were on the subject of Native Americans and I said we should never have cheated them out of their land. He said that if we didn’t how we would have America then. I said I don’t know but it is not right to profit off of someone else’s misfortune or lack of knowledge. This is pretty typical when you discuss this subject or any subject of the past pertaining to injustices with white people. You see people usually associate something bad with a reaction the end game being negative so to speak like America for example. America did so much wrong but yet it is the most powerful country in the world. Through its lies and killings it has established a seeminingly just country full of hope for all people. That is how most white Americans that I conversant really think on the terms of race and all other injustices that if it hadn’t been done and stopped at exactly the time it was then we wouldn’t be so great. So all the people wronged just have to take one for the team. Also I know that not all white people think like that. The truth is that America story isn’t finished and Europe’s and any other country as well. One thing about humans is that we are in a constant state of destruction and reconstruction. To achieve true happiness as a human race and push ourselves to greatness we haven’t achieved, either one race and religion and political system need to destroy all others or we learn to live and take a lesson from our past and learn to love and appreciate each other regardless of our differences. Let’s hope we follow the latter.
4. Okay I think that is it and if anyone else wants to discuss something else feel free to start because Thad bores me because he is already wrong just refuses to acknowledge it. It is ok to be wrong Thad everyone is. You have made some good points but the above statements are fact. Now when I say stuff like White people have a predisposition to racism that is not fact but just an educated guess based on historical fact and current fact. But it is not proven and for the sake of not sounding mean won’t be accepted unless I could prove it genetically but the vivo models are already out there. Thad I know already you won’t agree and will post something not quite on the subject to argue. Your wrong man save what little respect I have for you know and just admit you’re wrong and let’s find something else to beat me at. I don’t know why people have such a problem being wrong sometimes. It’s ok no one is perfect buddy. I will be the first to admit I am wrong or don’t know something thoroughly. I find no weakness in that it’s actually quite humbling. You should try it.
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Also J I just read your comments man and I know plenty of Diop. I don’t feel Diop was an Afro centric. He was merely telling it like it is which will usually get you termed with something to try to discredit you. The guy’s work was accurate and very compelling. Just a man who was trying to give the true story of history and how exterior environments may have affected behavior of certain groups of people. Like I say all that’s left is to justify his work with genetics.
Don’t let Thad make you go around the world to find information brother because he never gives facts backing his claims and I and you continue to do.
Also Mira quite being a cheerleader and actually contribute intellectually to the discussion. I can at least say that for Thad no matter how skewed his claims are.
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Also Mira quite being a cheerleader and actually contribute intellectually to the discussion.
Are you saying I didn’t do it?
Here’s what I said so far (excerpts):
————————————————————————–
For your average joe 1950s were “ancient history” and the way of life back then looks really “backwards” comparing to today’s standards- not to mention 1900s or 1850s.
I think Abagond’s own privilege (American privilege) prevented him to make this post much better, but at least he seems to be aware of his mistakes.
As for measuring GDP per capita or technology- I never understood why these are often taken as indicators of “progress”.
Understanding white supremacy is important, for both whites and blacks (and other non-whites). Sadly, I am not sure any of the groups really understand it and its harmful ways.
Xenophobia is political as well, because there is no “natural” way to tell who belongs to your group and who doesn’t.
The question “why whites, and not others” is a very good one, but there doesn’t seem to be an easy answer.
————————————————————————
Maybe that’s not intellectual enough but I am trying.
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Thad,
I always assumed it has something to do with the American privilege. Americans don’t really know what is like to be at war with other whites, do they? (I guess cold war doesn’t count)
For Europeans it’s a reality, so assuming two ethnic groups like each other just because they’re both white is ridiculous.
But now I see it’s not just an American thing, so I don’t get it.
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Americans don’t really know what is like to be at war with other whites, do they? (I guess cold war doesn’t count)
Americans really don’t know what it’s like to be at war, PERIOD. The last major war fought on their territory ended in 1865. WWI and WWII turned out very good for them and though Korea and Vietnam were a bit of a disappointment, it’s not like anyone on the homefront was hurt.
But now I see it’s not just an American thing, so I don’t get it.
It’s mostly an American thing. The folks who aren’t Americans here are mostly anglos and mostly young. I highly doubt someone who survived the Blitz in London in 1940 would be mouthing these pablums about “unified whites”, no matter what their color.
For these younger kids, it’s all a game.
That’s why even though I know you don’t like the Oppression Olympics, it absolutely amazed me that a Brit like J could be lecturing you, a Serb, on how you don’t understand what war is.
I mean that’s gotta take the cake for ignorance and insensitivity in my book.
But it makes sense from J’s perspective. For all his whoop-de-do about oppression and race war, I very much doubt that he’s been through anything more violent than a bicycle crash or a mugging on the way to the fish ‘n chips shop. Maybe a bar fight.
It’s the people who’ve never heard a shot fired in anger who are typically the ones who love to bang drums about war.
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@Timothy
Aeriously, a bad argument doesn’t get any better by repeating it six gadzillion times.
You claim that whites united under racism to fight the rest of the world.
I say this is demonstratably not true. I brought up the Portuguese/Dutch wars in Brazil in Africa as ONE example out of thousands in which white colnizers armed and trained non-whites in order to fight their white competitors.
We aren’t talking “squabbles among friends” here, Tim: we’re talking full-fledged wars which involved thousands and sometimes millions of deaths. If this sort of thing is a “squabble” to you, you’re in no position to lecture anyone at all on the nature of evil.
This is at the heart of the matter, Timothy and is not hair-splitting. If, indeed, whites were unified, how do you explain this very well-documented phenomenon?
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@Mira (and by extension, Thad)
I don’t understand why is so difficult to believe there is no such thing as “white unity” across the world.
No, there isn’t a “white unity” across the world, at least I don’t believe so. What there is, is a unity on certain beliefs. One of those (may I be so old as to say chief amongst those) is the belief in the supremacy of their race above all others. It’s that simple.
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I’m sorry, I meant “may I be so *bold” (this bloody keyboard’s giving me nightmares!!! I wouldn’t want to give Thad the wrong idea regarding my vocabulary levels!!! :))
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Sure, that kind of “unity”, such as it is, I can accept.
But Titan, surely you realize that there are many and conflicting variants of white supremacy?
It’s not like this is a cohesive and unified concept.
Besides, guys like J apparently ENJOY some types of white supremacy. They think aryanists are Afro-centric, for one. And J is hardly alone in this.
So if even self-proclaimed black nationalists believe that aryanism is well and good, then how can you presume that this “white supremacy” is a singular and cohesive ideology, hewed to by all white people and only white people?
Only a fool with no notion of the history of race and racism would believe that the heirs of Gobineau and Madison Grant are somehow the allies of people of color.
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F***, Titan, it’s not like my vocabularly levels are anything to write home about.
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LOL Thad, you’re angrier than I am!!! And that’s saying a LOT!!! Seriously though, when I say “white supremacy” I use that term loosely (and of course because I’m a 31 year old woman and can’t be seen to sound like a child!).
What I mean is more like the whole school playground “I’m better than you” accompanied with the customary sticking out of the tongue and running off. This belief in racial supremacy varies from person to person with differing levels of passion associated with the said belief. THAT’S what I mean.
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But it is there nonetheless. And I strongly elieve that it is in every white person, whether they like it or not.
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Oh BUGGER this bloody keyboard!!!
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Well THAT I would believe in Titan.
What I DON’T believe in is these whacko theories where somehow tha whole white world got together over at germany’s house on the weekend and pledged everlasting blood brotherhood to one another.
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Thad,
With regard to:
“Btw, can you give us a direct reference where Diop makes the claim that “white caucasian SOCIETY/CULTURE GOING BACK THOUSANDS OF YEARS is characterised by xenophobia”?
You have the temerity to ask me to give you information on a subject that you had said elsewhere you were conversant with.
You who have problems reading and understanding even the most basic of texts.
I am not providing you with information – that you do not already believe in – so you can go on a long diatribe which has nothing to do with the subject
You had best look it up for yourself
And good luck in your (re)search
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With regard to:
“What I DON’T believe in is these whacko theories where somehow tha whole white world got together over at germany’s house on the weekend and pledged everlasting blood brotherhood to one another.”
And this is my reason for not providingthe Diop reference.
You do not want to accept the basic truth that Whites bandied together (not as one happy family as you call it) to
colonise POC across the world because it would ultimately spoil your worldview, wich essentially is one that
is ‘Mad in Th (e h) ad’.
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Titan,
There is a great difference between “white unity” and similar beliefs whites share. Whites might dislike all black people, but it still doesn’t mean they like each other. Numerous examples (in form of wars) prove this: whites hate other whites too.
This is important to remember.
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You have the temerity to ask me to give you information on a subject that you had said elsewhere you were conversant with.
The reason I ask is because I am indeed familiar with Diop and I don’t recall him parroting the “caucasians are a special race” line anywhere in his writing.
Now, you’ve set yourself up as the forum’s reigning Diop scholar, J, so perhaps you’d like to show us exactly where Diop makes this claim.
Frankly, I think you’re full of what makes cows fart. You know damned well that Diop didn’t make that claim, but you’re too much of an intellectualk coward to admit.
But then again, maybe I’m wrong. I certainly haven’t read everything Diop’s written.
So how about you put up or shut up? Look at it this way, J: if you’re not just spouting BS this time, it’s an excellent way to show me up, no?
(But then again, both you and I know that you haven’t a single leg to stand on in this argument, don’t we?) 😀
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@Mira,
I never said they like each other. I said they had certain unified beliefs. That’s totally different. Nigerians do NOT like each other. But we generally believe that we’re better than other Africans.
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Oh and Mira, I never said they dislike black people either. I said they believe they’re better than other races. Doesn’t mean they dislike them.
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Titan,
I didn’t mean you implied this. I was just talking about difference.
Whites don’t like each other, it’s a fact. Maybe white Americans do like each other, but they certainly are not “all whites”, no matter what their American privilege and ignorance often tell them. But when you have people of different white ethnicities, it doesn’t work that way. This is especially true in Europe.
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White Americans are at each other’s throats, Mira.
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How’s the re(search) going mate??
By your tone here
“So how about you put up or shut up? Look at it this way, J: if you’re not just spouting BS this time, it’s an excellent way to show me up, no?”
It does not sound too good.
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“White Americans are at each other’s throats, Mira.”
Thad is right. From essentially the US gaining independence up until the 1960s, there was a deep division between northern and southern whites. Since the 1960s, there has been a division between “red” and “blue” whites that is sometimes cast in terms of the old southern-northern split. The more recent conflict centers cultural issues but often takes on class overtones. You wouldn’t know much about it from reading this blog, though.
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I find it worrisome that anyone finds a need to state categorically that a people do not like each other. There is absolutely no country like that. It’s only logical. If there is such a thing as sibling rivalry then why on EARTH would anyone suppose that people of a whole country would actually like each other??? Not in the UK, not in my country, not in the US, not anywhere. You can’t even get the whole of Europe to agree to use a single currency for God’s sake!!!
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Thad you lack quality. I emplore you all to treat his words as senseless banter only fueled with him wanting to be right all the time. Humble yourself becasue you thrive off of being right. I meet so many people who just never watn to say they are wrong and move on. You won’t explode Thad.
All of you should watch what you say about Americans white or black becasue we may have our problems but we as a country keep a balance in the World. I can promise you the if America ever falls to it knees a lot of other countries are going to fall and some will even die. Remember that next time you speak harshly on Americans Thadlyn.
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Still in “Hmmmmmmmmmmmm” (isn’t that a form of meditation ha ha )mode from my last comment elsewhere.
With regard to:
“Thad you lack quality. I emplore you all to treat his words as senseless banter only fueled with him wanting to be right all the time.”
We all want to be right. What I find strange here, though I understand the issue is one of ‘insecurity’.
Why would one want to be right and then come and preach to the congregation that they need to be listining to his ‘world view’, and in this instance a particular group of people (ie Black/POC).
In this respect there are many White commentators like this on Abagond’s blog.
Timothy, personally, I think this goes just beyond the mere ‘human quality aspect’ of wanting to be right, in this instance.
Btw cheers for the advice about not supplying him any refernce and your comments on Diop too.
Back to the meditation
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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Well, Titan, that’s precisely the belief of fascists: the members of a gfiven people SHOULD love each other, at gunpoint is necessary.
And the plain fact of the matter is that we have some fascists posting on this board.
@Timothy
Thad you lack quality. I emplore you all to treat his words as senseless banter only fueled with him wanting to be right all the time.
Very nice, Tim.
How about answering my question, though: if whites were all untied during colonization and conquest, how did they manage to fight so many wars against each other AND arm, train and equip non-whites to fight their white enemies?
If whites hated each other but hated and/or feared non-whites EVEN MORE, we should logically find very few instances of whites raising non-white armies to fight other whites.
Instead, we find that history is absolutely chock-a-brim with such instances.
So instead of appealing to people to ignore my opinions, why don’t you make an honest attempt to engage with them and show that they are incorrect?
Or is rhetoric all you have to offer?
All of you should watch what you say about Americans white or black becasue we may have our problems but we as a country keep a balance in the World. I can promise you the if America ever falls to it knees a lot of other countries are going to fall and some will even die. Remember that next time you speak harshly on Americans Thadlyn.
Great. So here we’re dealing with a Yank chauvinist, too.
Tim, I can categorically state that the U.S. has NEVER, EVER “kept a balance” here in South America. All you have done is keep bloody dictators on their thrones and train their torturers and armies. I have many mentors and colleagues who were tortured by USAID-funded cops here during the 1960s and ’70s, Tim, so please bull me no shit about your great, glorious and humanitarian Yew Ess uv Ay, OK?
The next time you want to wave your little red-white-and-blue banner, Tim, maybe you should learn some history first?
Just a radical thought.
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@J
Why would one want to be right and then come and preach to the congregation that they need to be listining to his ‘world view’, and in this instance a particular group of people (ie Black/POC).
I dunno, J. Why don’t you tell us, seeing as how that is precisely what you’ve been doing?
The difference between us, J, is that I’m not calling people to unite under my political banner: I’m just speaking my mind. And last I looked, this site is about split 50/50 black and non-black.
And I’ll take your lack of ability to provide us with a Diop reference to mean there isn’t one. I’ve read quite a bit of Diop, though not as much as you. NEVER, in all that reading, have I seen Diop hew to the position that “Caucasians” are a special race of humanity. In fact, Diop criticized, on several occasions, the white racist tendency to lump peoples under one great racial term such as “Caucasians”. Apparently you missed that part of his work.
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Thad either your and idiot without the ability to comprehend or you just want to be right. Because I have approached all of your statements and overcame them you just haven’t found it out yet. Read my entier post and not just what you what to deciper.
This will be my last time describing this to you becasue its so simple to understand and you already admited it when Titan said the same thing.
Europeans united in the thinking that the Africans of Africa were subhuman to them and this allowed them to have a clear concience in enslaving them. This did not make them friends it was thus status qou among them that we are superiour to Africans and that is why it is ok to enslave them and treat them this way.
Now I am not stating the they were friends just simply that they all agreed to come in this commone mindset in reference to Africans and their enslavement and treatment.
Now an example would be how in WWII Africans Americans even thought they fought with the Americans tey were even segrated from the German soldiers who received better treatment in some cases becasue they were white. This being an example showing two waring white people against each other just in different countries but still share the concept that white is best.
Now a simpler examble would be when people who may hhave conflicting religious beliefs or come from completely different backgrounds but yet in time of fighting fight and die together and collectively think that their enemy is lesser than them in some way.
Now in response to your statement about Brazil and Eurpeans training different races to kill other invading Europeans. Police officers and the military train dogs to kill human beings on command but and the end of the day my friend they are still dogs and considered lower than human beings. I am arguing simply that the mindset of Europeans were united in the fact that Africans were subhumane to them.
Now I really downsized my statement you this time so you can understand Thadlyn. I hope it isn’t to complex for you.
If you don’t under stand this simplistic statement then you are not as smart as you givve yourself credit for.
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@ Timothy, regarding All of you should watch what you say about Americans white or black becasue we may have our problems but we as a country keep a balance in the World. I can promise you the if America ever falls to it knees a lot of other countries are going to fall and some will even die. Remember that next time you speak harshly on Americans
I’m sorry, who the fuck are you again??? You’re American. And. So. Fucking. What? Seriously, this is what generally makes me detest Americans. And whether you would like to believe it or not, more than half of the world detests you guys for that reason alone. You are reliant on Japan for cars, china for almost everything and most importantly, Africa and the Middle east for oil! Are you fucking kidding me??? Fuck outta here with that mess or as
My people would say, fuck off jare!!! Who you feel say you be??? Wetin you feel say you carry??? You guys are a bunch of fucking illiterates and I’m putting it mildly. What fascinates me is that you think the only people that dislike you guys are the Arabs. Wrong. The world is sick of you guys because you guys are all mouth and nothing else. Give it a few decades. Seriously. War with everyone, throwing your weight around behaving as if the whole world is restricted to your boundaries. Are you fucking shitting me??? 3/4ths of you guys don’t even have a flipping passport or know what lies beyond your boundaries. I need to fucking breathe. This guy has to be on something. Seriously.
Telling me I need to be careful what I say about the US. Wipe kini??? Na ona stamp my passport??? I no even understand as person go open eye de talk rubbish like small pikin. Oh shit on a stick. I’m mad. Be danu jare!!! America my ARSE!!! I CHOSE to live in the UK above the US because you guys are insufferable pigheaded illiterate loudmouths generally. And I am again choosing to move to Canada from here because I feel I can bring up my children there and I feel that it is a country that has a lot to offer me and I it. I’m not looking for any fucking handouts. Hau!!! Abasi mbok, eyen eka mi look at this guy sha!!! Yeah. I need to stop. I’m switching between 3 languages here and I need to stop.
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T-ha ha ha -d
And I’ll take your lack of ability to provide us with a Diop reference to mean there isn’t one. I’ve read quite a bit of Diop, though not as much as you. NEVER, in all that reading, have I seen Diop hew to the position that “Caucasians” are a special race of humanity.
The reason you have not seen it in Diop, in your limited readings because he does not call White people ‘special’.
And if you had read as much as Diop as you say. You would not be ‘foolish’ to make reference to a question about Diop. Whites and being special.
You just shot yourself in the foot mate.
As a coin has two sides. In this instance the other side would be that you CANNOT find the appropriate subject matter that Diop is referring to.
Its a pity for you that your research have not bore any fruits as yet.
Its one of the disadvantages when you do not have books – even though you suggested that there are many online. I guess you were wrong here then with regard to this particular issue.
Please, do not let this ‘failure’ get you down.
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And while we’re at it, let’s not forget the U.S.’ STERLING record in Africa. I mean, where would Savimbi have been without the CIA?
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The reason you have not seen it in Diop, in your limited readings because he does not call White people ‘special’.
No, he specifically trashes late 19th century racial classifications like “Caucasian” as being too broad and ultimately useless. And yet you seem to believe that he’s on the same wavelength as your boy Bradley with his openly racist Iceman theory?
Do tell, J.
Source needed or STFU.
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I think its time you give up your search then. You do not have the book, and as I said earlier I am not going to assist you in this respect.
…So back to the topic concerned for you.
‘Is Africa Backward’
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J, I don’t have the book because nowhere in his opus does Diop make the claim that whites are a biologically seperate branch of humanity.
Source or STFU.
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STF-U then…
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Figured.
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Hey Thad I guess you ignoring my statement is your ignorant way of conceding. You know I am right. lol Man you need a lesson in humility.
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@ Titan
Dude you have issues becasue first of all you jump into a conversation thread that you didn’t trace back to see what and who’s statement I was rebuting adn for what. But since your that ignorant to speak on someting you don’t understand I might as well respond somewhat. I don’t really pay you any attention becasue you lack intelligence and heart from what I can see from your response. Britain wouldn’t be hear if it wassn’t from help from America twice. I have heard and read good things about Canada financial sitution but thats it.
About Americans traveling and. I know plenty of Americans who go abroad. I myself have been to London,England, Paris,France, and Costa Rica. I don’t consider myself any better than any other American or anybody else becasuse you can’t judge people on a standard that is convenient for you along.
I won’t start country bashing because whoever Amercia goes to war with here comes other European countries half helping when we saved them from Germany twice. Damn they were taking over easily especially France.
Also buddy your switching countries which shows your not loyal to any place. I am in medical school and I see a lot of foreigners trying to become citizens here in America. From Europe,Asia, and Middle East. They are usually very intelligent as well. When I talk to them about why they come they all say because money and better opportunities. Now I would be like ohmy because they are just goint to take opportunities then leave but they stress trying to become citizens both legally and illegally. I am not talking latin people i am talking Europeans and Middle Easterns who never get ragged on about immigration like hispanics are which I find unfair.
So Titan if we are so bad keep your citizens in your country man and let us perish then. But if people are coming hear to go to school and become citizens. Wow we are really a horrible place. America needs to overcome it’s economy problems and other issues but we are still a great nation.
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I won’t start country bashing because whoever Amercia goes to war with here comes other European countries half helping when we saved them from Germany twice.
Amercia.
I like it. 😀
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And I am again choosing to move to Canada from here because I feel I can bring up my children there and I feel that it is a country that has a lot to offer me and I it.
Good choice! Where about are you moving to?
I won’t start country bashing because whoever Amercia goes to war with here comes other European countries half helping when we saved them from Germany twice.
What do you call this?
I have heard and read good things about Canada financial sitution but thats it.
A left handed compliment if I ever heard one! This is not bashing other countries? A fine example of American cultural imperialism. Besides which, aren’t you still a colony of Great Britain. It has always been my theory that you never completely severed yourselves from Ol Blighty! You think you have but you haven’t. I’m not referring to wars either. Who wants to help you when you can’t even help yourselves. Who wants to dragged into your bogus war? You ain’t saving anyone chum. Just as you dislike others ragging on your country, don’t do it to others. Oh, and can the left-handed compliments.
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I just bumped into this podcast from the BBC by Mark Doyle. Although it can certainly only scratch the surface, it gives sort of an insight beyond the ‘usual’ belittling and political correctness on one hand, and the glorification on the other. Btw it does confirm much of the anecdotal evidence from my family and from my one and only visit in Cameroon so far.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/documentaries/2009/08/090827_why_is_africa_poor.shtml
I could also find myself in that one big question at the end “where to start?”. I suppose anybody could, if you’re honest to yourself…
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Femi, I like your avatar. What part of Cameroon are you/your parents from?
As for the link:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/documentaries/2009/08/090827_why_is_africa_poor.shtml
“But as presenter Mark Doyle travels across Africa, he comes across another view: that it is Africa’s corrupt leaders that are to blame.”
This is what I’ve been saying all along. I think most people who visit come to this conclusion.
“Further on, he discovers that, contrary to the popular view in the West, much of the continent has fertile soil, ample rain and sun. Moreover, the sense of community is good. But does this make life almost too easy – and therefore discourages innovation?”
I don’t think that it does. There are a number of groups that are known for their innovation, yet retain a strong sense of community. If anything, the sense of community provides a solid base from which to work from. What does discourage innovation, however, is poverty and hunger.
“Why does this situation persist? Is it Africa’s disappointing politicians, or a history of colonialism?”
It is both, and they are intricately connected, as Titan touched on a bit in an earlier comment.
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@Natasha W
My grandmother was born in Douala and emigrated to France in the 1930s. My mother was born in France, half camerounaise half métropolitaine. My father is Polish/Lithuanian jew who emigrated with my grandparents to England as a kid and then came to France in the 50s. It’s really as simple as that 😉
I still have 2 cousins from my Cameroonian nan’s side who live and work in Douala.
I was trying to find the previous part of the podcast which is about the western and colonial influence on poverty. I couldn’t find it. Any hint is appreciated.
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So about 25% of your ancestors are African and 75% European, Natasha?
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^Don’t you mean to ask Femi that?
Femi,
Interesting and unique ancestry, Femi.
‘I was trying to find the previous part of the podcast which is about the western and colonial influence on poverty. I couldn’t find it. Any hint is appreciated.”
Is this it?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/documentaries/2009/08/090821_why_is_africa_poor.shtml
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Classic Thad mistake
You have to laugh…Well I am about to shake my head again
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@Natasha W
Brilliant, thanks for the link.
As for the question, in french I say “je suis un quatre-quarts légèrement brulé…”
Mais en principe, it’s 25% Lituanian, 25% Polish, 25% French and not least 25% Douala (although my great-granny was supposedly Yoruba by heritage…)
I’m French citizen though. I know, nobody’s perfect 😉
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Femi, yes of course.
Sorry. Typing on a netbook today with a screen the size of a postage stamp.
And J, at least my errors are honest, neh? Unlike folks who repeatedly link us to ultra-racist authors and websites as “afrocentric” sources and then say “Oh, sorry, I didn’t mean to do that.”
Hell, Femi, I`d take French citizenship any day, were it offered me. 😀
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Thad,
Just to remind you that you were the one who brought the link here.
And this is not the first tim eyou have a handy excuse. Let me cast my mind back.
1. Bell Curve in conversation with RR. Your excuse then was that you were reading under ‘dark lighting’
2. Meltzer quote about ‘Seasoning Camp’. You went down to a musuem and consulted the book. However, when I asked you to quote from the book you refused to so
And now…
3. To protect your lack of critical thinking skills, I am expected to believe you are reading from a small pc screen and not that you were about to unleash an ‘onslaught’ at Natasha W., since you had no problem identyfing all the other words on the screen correctly, with regard to racial identity
Please….
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I brought Metapedia here? I claimed Michael Bradley was a worthwhile, afrocentric author?
No, J: you did that. I put the link up to the man’s homepage to show what an absolute anti-semitic aryanist nutter he was.
Again, man: show some courage. If you like fascists and racists, then at least have the courage to say that you do. This “Bradley’s a great afrocentrist scholar on race… Oh, did I say that? I didn’t mean that” crap is for the birds.
Say it true, J: you’re in favor of racism as long as the interpretation of racist views is what you feel is positive for black people. So when Bradley goes off into his long screed about Jews – I’m sorry, Iceman – you think that’s cool because you’ve convinced yourself that he’s talking about white people in general.
THAT’S why you like Bradley.
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Please do not tell me what I did do, or did not do, if you cannot even remember your own actions
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On a lighter note, here’s a ‘modern’ day example from 1972 where an African was way ahead of the rest of world 😉
Often copied, never equalled. Manu Dibango from Douala.
Another example is Fela.
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strange that you see to think having tall building and lights are signs of civilisations. Would help but that is not the whole picture.
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@ Redjupiter
The point of the pictures was to show that Africa is hardly the coast-to-coast hellhole the Western press presents. But, yes, this posts buys into Western technocentrism:
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@Titan
“You guys are a bunch of fucking illiterates and I’m putting it mildly. What fascinates me is that you think the only people that dislike you guys are the Arabs. Wrong. The world is sick of you guys because you guys are all mouth and nothing else. Give it a few decades. Seriously. War with everyone, throwing your weight around behaving as if the whole world is restricted to your boundaries. Are you fucking shitting me??? 3/4ths of you guys don’t even have a flipping passport or know what lies beyond your boundaries.”
I realize this is an old post.
I was with her (Titan) in her first post about the wording of this entry, but now it seems she started generalizing people in the same way people generalize Africa.
True, she didn’t have to accept an apology, but she also didn’t have to act like a snob.
(And you’re better than some people because you have a passport? You want a cookie sweetheart?)
Sorry, but I found Titan to be a hypocrite and her statements just ooze with condescension.
You don’t respond to ignorance with more ignorance.
@abagond
I would also like a post about the relationship between non-American blacks and black Americans.
I am a first generation American and I am disgusted by some of the attitudes my family has about black Americans.
From my personal experience, the non-american blacks I know do not associate or want to associate with Black Americans
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@ mu heffner: Comment deleted for use of Mock Ebonics and moderated words.
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“The world is sick of you guys [….]” ~ Titan, self-appointed spokesperson for all of humanity.
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[…] Is Africa backward? – a perfect example of vertical thinking. I did not understand how terrible it was till I tried, as an exercise, to write the very same post about Black Americans. […]
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