Read this post in Japanese: なぜ日本人は自分たちを白人のように描くのか？
Why do the Japanese draw themselves as white? You see that especially in manga and anime.
As it turns out, that is an American opinion, not a Japanese one. The Japanese see anime characters as being Japanese. It is Americans who think they are white. Why? Because to them white is the Default Human Being.
If I draw a stick figure, most Americans will assume that it is a white man. Because to them that is the Default Human Being. For them to think it is a woman I have to add a dress or long hair; for Asian, I have to add slanted eyes; for black, I add kinky hair or brown skin. Etc.
The Other has to be marked. If there are no stereotyped markings of otherness, then white is assumed.
Americans apply this thinking to Japanese drawings. But to the Japanese the Default Human Being is Japanese! So they feel no need to make their characters “look Asian”. They just have to make them look like people and everyone in Japan will assume they are Japanese – no matter how improbable their physical appearance.
You see the same thing in America: After all, why do people think Marge Simpson is white? Look at her skin: it is yellow. Look at her hair: it is a blue Afro. But the Default Human Being thing is so strong that lacking other clear, stereotyped signs of being either black or Asian she defaults to white.
When you think about it there is nothing particularly white about how anime characters look:
- huge round eyes – no one looks like that, not even white people (even though that style of drawing eyes does go back to Betty Boop).
- yellow hair – but they also have blue hair and green hair and all the rest. Therefore hair colour is not about being true to life.
- small noses – compared to the rest of the world whites have long noses that stick out.
- white skin – but many Japanese have skin just as pale and white as most White Americans.
Besides, that is not how the Japanese draw white or even Chinese people. The otherness of foreigners is clearly marked by physical stereotypes – just as Americans do with people of colour. In anime White Americans are stereotyped as having yellow hair, blue eyes and a long or big nose:
Gone are the big round eyes and the strange hair colours. Because those things have nothing to do with whiteness.
Note that the Japanese drop the markings of otherness if the action is set in a foreign land, like China or America. In that case the characters are drawn in the regular anime style. Because for that story the Default Human Being is understood.
Some Americans, even some scholars, will argue against this view of anime. They want to think the Japanese worship America or worship whiteness and use anime to prove it. But they seem to be driven more by their own racism and nationalism than anything else.
See also:
- Matt Thorn: The Face of the Other – upon which this post is mostly based
- The Boondocks, Astro Boy and drawing people of colour – some more on the same subject
- The casting of “The Last Airbender”
- ganguro
- David Carradine
- How black was Ancient Egypt?
- Cheikh Anta Diop
Was ther not a time when Japanese were referred to as ‘honorary whites’…
Isn’t it Korea ther is a penchant for ‘White’ skin, but not White as in Caucasian though.??
Perhaps someone else may be able clarify.
Once again 5,000 years from now archaeolgists come across these comics and decide the Japanese are W.H.A.T. by race, ethnicity, phenotype??
Hmmm!!
That’s an interesting take, and I would agree with the ‘stickman’ and ‘Marge Simpson examples and a host of millions of other cartoon and advertising images as ‘default white. I would even add the ‘male’ and ‘female images usually posted to designate public bathroom doors. However, I’m going to to disagree, with regards to the anime and manga characters. Those are clearly ‘anglicized’ features/combined with white skintone.
Thanks for bringing this to our attention Abagond. This was actually a bit of a “blinding flash of insight” moment for me.
One thing I have really learned from some of the discussions on this blog is about how we can be so conditioned to unthinkingly accept white as the “default”.
I had always wondered about the “whiteness” of anime characters, and figured it might be due to some idolization of white people by the Japanese. So it’s interesting to reflect on my previous interpretation in light of what you have posted here.
Interesting Oyan,
Not that I know – but if I had to guess, I would call them ‘Japenese stylised art feature’
Perhaps once again someone might clarify??
@ Oyan:
What is “white skin tone”?
Consider that most Asian cultures have always had a preference for pale skin because it is a signifier of higher status. (Tanned skin = peasantry.)
So the difference between the “ideal” skin tone for NE Asians and the skin tone of Europeans is fairly minor.
Maybe I’m so exposed to the “default” white game that I see it everywhere, but where Japanese pop culture goes, I don’t feel I’m far off. The dated but still popular ganguro gyaru style sports bleached hair, colored contacts, and spray tans (apparently emulating a west coast white girl look), manba is similar, as is the male gyaruo counterpart.
I also seriously doubt all ‘ordinary’ anime characters are supposed to characterize Japanese folks if they have gaijin names (even in the Japanese dialogue) and blonde hair- there are PLENTY. Yes, there appear to be separate categories, but these are drawn along nationalistic lines: AMERICANS are blonde, nordic-nosed, and blue eyed (nevermind there are plenty of nonwhite Americans…does that make anime racist?) and CHINESE have distinctly exaggerated epicanthic folds.
Honestly, I have no desire for ANY culture to worship or emulate whiteness, but that’s the case in many places. That fact cannot be ignored. Throughout Asia (not just Japan), blepharoplasty is something to aspire to along with porcelain skin and tiny features. In Kenya and other parts of Africa, women with non-permed hair play second fiddle to women with straightened hair and lighter skin in the professional environment. And lets not discuss Brazil…
I’m not a nationalist, nor would I consider myself a racist. I don’t think that the Japanese as a whole worship America or worship the concept of “whiteness”(even though they’ve fell for it). I think that like others have stated before, they have had a preference for paler skin, way before any white individual or the concept of racism or “whiteness” reached the Far East. However, you look into the origins of anime, Japan’s exposure to “others”(non-Asians) being predominantly white, how younger Japanese do worship Western(particularly American) culture, which are the same Japanese who do things like dye their hair blonde or get plastic surgery to make their eyes more round, and the notion of how people abroad see American = white, and how East Asians, and in particular the notoriously racist and nationalistic Japanese, aside from other Japanese when it comes to mates or physical attraction, have a very high preference for white people and little else, how can you not conclude that sure, their intent may not be for them not to appear “white”, but that they do appear as such?
While the default human being in America and the West is white, prior to anime and the interaction with Western countries, the Japanese did portray themselves strictly with slanted eyes, and black hair.
Abagond,
I forgot to add a very good and insightful post.
I feel we would need to know a little about the creators of these type of comics, history, who are they marketed to etc…
before a conclusion can be properly drawn.
Do you know anything about this??
Besides, isn’t it funny how the portayal of the Chinese in anime tend to have stereotypical East Asian physical features and mannerisms, and yet most Japanese characters are the complete opposite, and tend to look more like whites?
Abagond, I understand the point. They are not meant to be white, but Asian (Japanese). I accept this.
I am one of the people who think they look white. I am not not white. And, I do understand the “white as default” race belief, which is erroneous.
But, this is not the case in Anime. Growing up, I assumed the characters were drawn that way to appease white westerners. No one would mistake an Anime character for black or South Asian, for example. However, it’s understandable to me why many people, including me, assumed they were white while growing up.
This is especially true of the blond-haired/blue-eyed ones. It’s a fact that blond-hair/blue eyes are “white” features (found almost exclusively among whites), so asking people to accept that a blond-hair/blue-eyed Sailor Moon is not white but Asian seemed weird since Asians don’t have blond-hair and blue eyes (PS. I understand and accept that the characters are Asians because they’re culturally Asian.) Yes, I also understand that Anime is NOT real-life, but rather an idealized/exaggerated style of art.
I explained my Sailor Moon assumption on the Last Airbender thread.
If Sailor Moon was made into a Hollywood movie, I’d understand the casting of a white, blond-haired, blue-eyed actress like Dakota Fanning. Casting is [sometimes] based on how well the actors resemble the characters. It’d be nearly impossible to find a blond-hair/blue-eyed Asian person for Sailor Moon.
http://static.blogr.com/tenants/com/sites/wo/worstblogever/media/Spring-2007-Michael-Kors-Reaty-to-Wear-Gemma-Ward.vga.jpg
This girl is white with features similar to the Japanese Anime (she’s also a popular model in Asia)
And, Abagond, like other posters have stated, the influence of white-western culture on Asians cannot be dismissed.
There is an affinity for white-Europeanness that goes beyond what is natural. 1/3 of Asians females in western society date and marry white men exclusively. The phenomenon of Asians who say they’re just “not” attracted to other Asians is too high.
In Asia, the models,actors, pop stars and TV hosts who are the most popular are either Eurasian or Asians who’ve gotten surgery to “fix” their eyelids so it looks mostly “western” (white)
I read an article a few months back about an Asian artist who created an image of the ideal female, based on what Asians found attractive, and not surprisingly, the character looked more European than Asian.
So, while I agree that the characters of the Last Airbender are Asians, I don’t agree that there wasn’t some conscious effort put into making the Anime characters appear more western.
PS. Look at the Boondocks characters. No one would mistake them for whites or Asians. They just look black.
maybe the Japs are selling to a market. As for racism, the Japs think themselves superior to anyone else
I believe that have a right to racial pride. They are fortunate they are a monculture
how can you say these Professors are nationalist and racist? Compared to the Japs no they aren’t
@Darth Paul
Are you Kenyan? I would be interested in knowing where you got your information from. I’m not saying it’s impossible but what you shared runs counter to my experience.
Alan–
You say they have a right to racial pride but there is an unmistakable and racist tone of disdain when you claim the Japanese “believe themselves superior”. It’s also a full word, Japanese, not Jap.
In addition, by giving your one word of praise to the island by saying that the Japanese are “lucky to have a monoculture”, you denigrate multiracial societies.
Anyone who has any more issues to take with Alan’s comment, jump in.
Abagond–
If I’m not mistaken, leaving aside whether it’s accurate or not, in my experience most scholars who call anime white-worshipping are doing so with an at least ostensibly critical viewpoint. Are you suggesting that that has an underlying tone of self congratulation/racism? I hadn’t thought about it that way, though it’s certainly possible.
Also, at least in reference to the girls in the picture you’ve posted, what about the blue/green eyes?
please excuse my bad typing
Right.
M
those pics are probably made for a western market. Cartoons in the 60s such as ‘Atsroboy” looked exactly the same. The features have not changed
japanese prefer not to be viewed as Asians as they have a disdain bordering on hatred for Chinese and Koreans
Japanese prefer to be associated more with the whites of the west
Your argument seems to be self-contradictory. You claim the Japanese believe themselves superior to anyone else (or by anyone else, do you only mean other Asians?) and now you say they desire to be associated with white people. Certainly not behavior characteristic of a culture which believes itself superior to all others.
Or perhaps these were more “typing errors”?
Both, japs have always considere themselves superior to both Asians and westerners. Speaking to some japanese individuals, like rugby players, you would not get that impression, but get them in the board room and they fight a war on paper against you
They prefer not to be seen asian due to their contempt for other Asians. They prefer to be seen with the west, but they still think they are better
Remember, untill WW2 they thought their Emperor was a living God, literally. Some still think he is the centre of the universe
Why do you think Japan is a powerful commercial nation. They conduct business as a race. So do the Chinese in fact
You’re not very fond of consistency or logic, are you?
Then again, it’s difficult to find any consistency or logic when you refer to an entire country as a monolith with a population that all thinks identically. You’re bound to run up against errors because I hate to break it to you, nationality doesn’t work that way.
If all nations and races did in fact think and behave identically, I doubt we’d be having this discussion. And I presume you’re white (so am I), so why would we be arguing? We think identically, don’t we?
You play by certain rules for one group and you kind of have to do it for all of them.
You do throw a few bones to the notion of there being such a thing as an individual in your post, so I suppose I should give you some (reluctant) points for that.
I (and most legitimate economists) always assumed Japan was a powerful commercial nation because of the superior technology invented during the 1970s oil shocks, but if you insist it’s racial, I suppose that’s probably a simpler explanation to process for some people.
We westerners, especially the Anglos, have been very tolerant of immigration. Our generosity has been hijacked and made a political football
You ask the Jpas or any other Asian government how many immigrant can we give them from the third world. You will be told No”
They do not tolerate the left liberal scourges the way the west have
Japan has no raw materials, it imports them all. They work as a nation, not individuals. it is you that has misunderstood
By the way, there is no suck thing as a legitimate economist. It’s a black art and not for the first time they failed the world as seen in the recent financial crises
Not fo the first time either
quote you
“hen again, it’s difficult to find any consistency or logic when you refer to an entire country as a monolith with a population that all thinks identically. You’re bound to run up against errors because I hate to break it to you, nationality doesn’t work that way. ‘
It’s easy to see you are an economist
They are tought from school, as the kids in any nation should be to look after the country. Obviously as individuals they have their own thoughts but in business they do it for a Jap company for the good of japan
As an economist, you are probably a free trade. They are bad news for nation States
I was not referring to individuals in a business sense, I was referring to them in a general sense. You constantly refer to a collective mentality that frankly will not hold up as an argument–because while some countries have more political conformity than others, there is no true collective mentality–not within races, religions, nations or even companies. You are lumping an entire nation into a single minded mass and claiming
While I’d hardly say economists are infallible individuals, attacking any opinion that came from one on the basis of the recession is simple ad hominem.
I was not under the impression we were speaking of immigration and I’d love to be informed of the relevance to the discussion. I suppose I’m too dim to follow this one. At least my ability to use punctuation will comfort me in my dire realization of my inferiority.
Cut off sentence at the end of the first paragraph: and claiming to be able to see consistencies.
I’m actually a novelist. Sorry to disappoint. I did study economics, though. I like to think of myself as a renaissance woman.
I also think free trade has led to a number of human rights atrocities which makes it impossible for me to support it. Again, sorry.
The immigration mention was to explain to you how the japs are intolerant od it, so are the Swiss for that matter. So you see, the mention of immigration was relevent
The japanese do have a collective mentality
quote you
” there is no true collective mentality–not within races, religions, nations or even companies.”
Cutting things fine aren’t you?
yes i agree with you on free trade. It’s a disaster visited upon the third world. They deserve better
It’s not good for first world nations either
I’m not saying there aren’t dominant political ideas–I’m saying your pod-people ideas don’t hold up.
In my general experience, individuals of all nations within business are working for their own self-interest.
So you brought up immigration as a way to show that governmental decisions do in fact demonstrate collectivity. Okayyyyy.
Frankly, I’m not sure why I’ve taken the time to argue this.
No Not Government decision. Japanese private companies work for both themselves and the benefit of Japan
I brought up immigration to try and inform you the Japanese are an intolerant people and would not allow immigration. i don’t blame them really, after all, why should we tolerate it, but the fact remains, Japs are not tolerantas we are
You’ve taken time to argue this as you sense corrctly, you are learning something
Americans are trained from a very early age to see people according to their race. There have been plenty of tests done on little children to prove this – despite what white people like to believe about being colour-blind.
The Japanese do not see the world in the American colour-coded way. To them there are the Japanese and then there are foreigners. Since nearly everyone in their country is Asian, seeing people according to race in the American sense is not useful.
So all these heavy racial messages commenters are reading into anime just are not there. It says way more about American hang-ups about race than Japanese ones.
Like take yellow hair: what can that possibly mean when anime characters can also have green hair or pink hair? Unless a character has a foreign name, hair colour says nothing about race.
Hair colour is used to make it easy to tell characters apart. Also certain hair colours tend to go with certain personality types. It is no more a message about race than Marge Simpson’s yellow skin is.
This is not to say that the Japanese are not racist and do not have their own hang-ups about race. They do. But they are not the American ones.
I’ve always heard that Japanese had a “fascination” with making themselves appear more like white people. But this, makes a lot more sense.
Interesting.
I have to agree with Alan: from what I know the Japanese think they are better than everyone else, better even than the Chinese or the Americans. This idea that they look up to Americans is a self-serving American fantasy. In general the Japanese think America is screwed up, partly because of the whole race thing.
Alan–
Trust me, I’ve known for a long time that some people are stuck enough in a position to not be worth arguing with. However, being human, sometimes good judgment fails me.
Abagond–
Slightly off topic, but what do you think of the more obvious whiteness which shows up in Chinese media, i.e., magazines? I could be comparing apples and oranges here, so tell me if this is a stupid question, but do you believe the Japanese media is less Eurocentric than others in Asia?
That’s interesting, because I assumed that the anime characters were white. LOL. But they are cartoons so they’re stylized versions of human beings, in the case of anime, Japanese human beings.
But don’t we all think of our own race as the default to a large extent? That is if we haven’t been brainwashed otherwise. It just seems that whites possibly seem more strongly ethnocentric than others because they are the dominant culture.
When it comes to media – movies, books, etc., they are white characters telling white stories from a white point of view. That seems only natural. If I were to create characters they most assuredly would be black because that’s who I am and that’s what I know.
The problem with many whites is that they don’t even want to know about other points of view or they disparage other points of view as having nothing to offer. To me this is the danger of casting yourself as the default human. It’s almost as if no one else is.
quite right about the Japanese abagond, although I don’t no about Anglo hang ups re Anime. They are just cartoons
The japanese do appreciate certain things in US and Britsh culture, ( music } but they never let it sway them from being japanese
Abagond–
I had issues with how Alan framed his argument in terms of some sort of arrogant proclamation of superiority. He claims he respects Japan as a country but repeatedly uses a racial slur in reference to its people and clearly isn’t too fond of the country on a whole.
Do you think people assume Japan looks up to America in part because of the more obvious media allegiance to the West in other Asian countries–ie, they are not seeing East Asia as divided up into individual countries and views because of their own racism/laziness in not making distinctions?
whites, Anglos anyway in Anglo countries are enthnocentric due to the immigration on a large scale happening. Not just Anglos. I wouldn’t mind betting some blacks in LA moan about the “wetbacks ” too
It’s easy to pick on the Anglos, they are so tolerant
Try blaming Muslems or jews for something. You gotta fight on yer hands
M
what racial slur?
Alan–
“Jap” is generally considered a racial slur.
How many times do I have to tell you, not in my neck of the woods. It’s the same as calling a a New Zealander a Kiwi, or an American a Yank
M, I live in a different land and I am not subject to the rules and the political corrctness of your country, wherever that is, i presume the US
I suspect it’s considered only by certain people in the US to be a racial slur. Nonetheless we are different nations,different cultures and befiefs and Law.
Please do not assume that your beliefs abnd laws have jurisdiction here. They don’t
“Jap” is NOT a slur
I bet you watch ” The View on TV “
I do not watch the View, I don’t have television, I live part time in the US and part time in London. I’m not very close with very many Americans outside of my own family, most of my friends are British and never once have I heard any one of them say that word.
I don’t think you’ve made one correct assumption about me so far.
I’m not assuming you are informing me what is race speech and what is not in my own country. I’m stating you have written thet very thing. You tell someone in another country they must conform with US PV lefty newspeak
Sorry. Please understand what you may do and say in your country is not the same as in mine \Many British would use the term “jap” and do. I know the British people very well. Your ‘newspeak” is a false construct and certainly not used where I am.
What you say is cultural foreign
Jap is short for Japanese” How you find that offensive I don’t know. i suspect you’ve been listening to the new York radicals too much
So all these heavy racial messages commenters are reading into anime just are not there. It says way more about Anglo hang-ups about race than Japanese ones.
Really? Then how do you explain what I or others have said above in regards to Asians, who among other things, both in the West & the East, alter their physical appearances to look more “Western”(which becomes a euphemism for “white”?)Taking something like that into consideration, I can assure you, that’s no Anglo hold-up of mine, and says more about how the Japanese wish to see themselves.
Alan, because of the history of the word as it pertains to Japanese in America, “Jap” can be construed as offensive, though I think it’s more archaic than offensive. It’s like referring to a black person as “colored” or a “Negro”.
Japan is not a multicultural society. Never has been. And the way the young are indoctrinated, likely won’t be for a few more generations. Not until the progressive movement has had lots of time to infect their society.
Japenese children are not raised with other races and are not taught the same nonsense about race relations as western youth.
The Japanese people ARE a united people m, don’t get it mixed up. They have a strong, supremacist identity as well.
KeyserSoze
Alan, because of the history of the word as it pertains to Japanese in America, “Jap” can be construed as offensive, though I think it’s more archaic than offensive. It’s like referring to a black person as “colored” or a “Negro”.
______
I don’t believe this fellow is American. Either way, I’m not offended.
The Japanese society has never been multicultural and they ARE a united and supremacist society.
They have not been infected with progressive ideologies yet and feel no shame in showing national pride. It may take a few more generations until the west and their guilt can infect Japanese culture.
Hi keyserSoze
One thing I’ve noticed here is that anything negative is the Anglos fault. Anglos hanve hang ups. I think many people are jealous of Anglo success, and when they fail, they pick a tolerant target, namely the Anglo, and blame it on them
Jap is the standard informal ophrase we use here. it is not an insult
This is not an issue solely with the Japanese, many Asians worship whiteness. They bleach their skin and tote umbrellas during sunny periods to ensure they don’t get darker, do eyelid surgeries to do away with their Asian eyes and have more ‘western’ aka Caucasian looking eyes. Marrying a white person is seen as an elevation of status for many and having arrived. With all of that, it should not be surprising that they would depict themselves as white, because. In truth it is sad. Not sure if it the effects of globalization, but hopefully they embrace their own natural beauty and celebrate that.
I don’t think marrying a white person is something they consider an elevation. The Japs feel they are as good or better than anyone. The japs don’t marry out that much
As far as the anime is concerned, look at this from the 60s
http://www.planetvideo.com.au/blog/2009/02/06/astro-boy-04-1024×768.jpg
http://www.treasuredcelebrations.com/catalog/images/astroboy.jpg
http://www.celluloidfun.com/images/astroboyfly.jpg
Alan, I’m sorry if I informed you about what race speech is in your own country.
That said, this is an international space. I called out what I saw as negative speech. However, as a white person, this isn’t really my call.
You also never explicitly stated you were British until after I called you out on the use of the word.
It would be wrong of me to try to dictate your culture to you. I still believe many of the things you said were biased and incorrect but if you say that particular word is not offensive where you live, I believe you and I’m sorry I implied otherwise.
Again, however, I’m going to restate, this is an international space.
No need to apologize M, that’s fine, and yes, it’s an international space. By all means you call them japanese and I’ll call them japanese too, or japs!
I actually never said i was british. Close to it. I’m Australian, and we and the british are sort of similar in many regards, for beter or worse. Calling japaense japs is one thing we both do
The anime style started pretty much with Astro Boy in the 1950s. His creator, Osamu Tezuka, grew up watching Disney and Max Fleischer cartoons in the 1930s and 1940s.
Compare Astro Boy with Fleischer’s Betty Boop:
Betty Boop:
http://spa.fotolog.com/photo/58/44/6/vanessa5mengarda/1229002191052_f.jpg
Astro Boy:
http://www.astroboy.co.uk/images/astroboy_dvd.jpg
Astro Boy came to North America in the 1960s but before that he was squarely aimed at Japanese schoolboys with no thought of appealing to whites.
Americans tend to be very politically correct. The term ‘jap’ is thought of as a slur here because of its use in such a negative way historically.
Question: Do the Japanese in Australia refer to themselves as Japs? or is this one of those things where Political Correctness is non-existent? Just saying: In Brazil “PC” is out the window and any Asian person there is called “chino” – to nobody’s dismay.
yes, those eyes are similar, and they are similar right through the decades till now
With regard to:
“The Japanese do not see the world in the American colour-coded way. To them there are the Japanese and then there are foreigners. Since nearly everyone in their country is Asian, seeing people according to race in the American sense is not useful. ”
If I remember correctly, I think they treat Koreans badly
And also there is a caste discrimination of the Burakmins
Burakumin-The Untouchable Caste of Japan
Japan’s Hidden People Fight To Gain Equality
http://japan.suite101.com/article.cfm/burakumin
Hi Co L
We have PC here, but there is not problem calling japanese japs. it’s what we culturally have done since the war and the modern japanese in Australia have no trouble with it
We do have a couple of people her that tend to speak for others, without invitation. They don’t like calling aboriginals ‘Abos”, but eh ‘Abos” themselves don’t care
Also if you see some aboriginals lads and someone says We got the ‘ Abo boys ” it’s not an insult as we never kept slaves and the expression “boy” is not the same as in the US where is can be an insult to Blacks. Here in Austrlaia, lads both black and white are referred to as “boys” or ” the boys”
It should be said though, thee were times we could have treated out native people better. We are learning that, and it doesn’t take PC people to make us understand
Thanks Alan…
I understand completely, maybe more than most because Brazil is much that way. My inlaws have called me “Negao” (pronounced nay-gown) and I’m White. It means “Big Black” and is a term of endearment implying handsome, strong, tall. Only in Brazil I tell you! – or Australia
LOL that’s excellent
>”I (and most legitimate economists) always assumed Japan was a powerful commercial nation because of the superior technology invented during the 1970s oil shocks, but if you insist it’s racial, I suppose that’s probably a simpler explanation to process for some people.”
Any “superior technology” that the Japanese have produced are the result of the thousands of patents that Japanese firms purchased from western companies in the 50′s and 60′s.
I also think it reasonable to infer that there is a racialist component to Japan’s highly nationalistic and paternalistic economic policies.
As mentioned elsewhere, Japan must export finished goods in order to import food and raw materials. Pop culture has been a successful export commodity for them since the 50s. Hence the blonde, “round eyed” cartoon characters.
that sounds close to the mark Bud
I agree with Crissa, this makes more sense to me than the notion that anime characters are supposed to be white like Westerners. As Abagond said, fair skin is rather typical for Japanese, that doesn’t mean they are white. It’s hard for me to believe that Japanese society venerates Western-style whiteness when they are so attached to their own culture.
I know the Japanese have a problem with skin-bleaching (as do many other nations), but does that necessarily mean they want to be like white people (as in white Westerners)? Isn’t it possible that fair skin is seen as superior from a Japanese perspective? So the superior person would not be a white Westerner, but a fair skinned Japanese person. Just like Indians also esteem whiteness, but that doesn’t mean they want to look like Scandinavians.
so are there any black anime characters? i mean, i am not interested in japanese animation (i was very briefly years ago when I was 14).
and if there are black anime characters are they good or bad?
just curious.
Danila,
Just to add that the Indians wish to be associated with ‘Aryan-White’
abagond:
I am not Japanese, but when I was growing up, I had kids/teenagers call me the J-word amongst other Asian ethnic slurs. And, YES, it is a racist slur. I don’t give a rat’s behind what Alan B’Stard M P insists, the J-word is offensive.
“Jap” is offensive? Does that mean “Yank” and “Brit” are offensive, too?
Sorry, I can`t see commonly used contractions as offensive, in spite of what kids may have called you back in the day. I got called a “Yank” and got called that in a degradory tone. So does that make “Yank” a slur?
You know what, Thad? Any name used to denigrate/make fun of others should not be used at all. Btw, I do find being called a J-word offensive because I had white people call me that as well and other slurs at the same time. So don’t you dare tell me what I should believe! You don’t me nor my personal experience so bug off!
The J-word is that me by any chance
No seroiusly,
Japs, Yanks, in this part of the world is deemed as offensive along with the term Abos too
That should’ve been as well as.
And you don’t know me.
And if ever one should be in doubt, then one can consult and free of charge too:
List of ethnic slurs database
http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/list-of-ethnic-slurs/a.html
@J:
Yep, and somehow I was making up the J-word being offensive for no apparent reason. You see, it was all in my head.*sarcasm*
Alan, Thad, Leigh:
From what I know “Jap” was the common term Americans used for the Japanese during the Second World War and they did not mean anything good by it. So it has become a not-good word.
As far as I can tell it is worse than “Negro” or “Yank” but not as bad as “nigger” and “gook”. But not being Asian myself I cannot say for sure. I doubt Alan or Thad, being white, have a good feel for how bad it is. I would trust what Leigh says – though it is possible that it is worse in some countries than others.
My dictionary says it is “often offensive”, which makes it a word to avoid unless you want to be a jerk. Even if it is all right in Australia, more than just Australians come to this blog.
Speaking for myself, Alan’s use of “Jap” makes him seem like an ignorant rube.
@abagond:
Alan and Thad wouldn’t know a thing about it. Did they move to a predominantly white neigborhood as a child and had racial slurs including the J-word scrawled on their garage? Did they have their car windows smashed in and covered with feces? I highly doubt it. It’s so fcuking maddening that someone has the gall to tell you what you should or shouldn’t find offensive.
Do forgive me for being pedantic here Abagond. Well its been a long time since I have graced this role.
In your well crafted response, there was one just minor thing.
“I doubt [the commentators], being white, have a good feel for how bad it is.
In this part of the world with anti-racist/diversity training etc being White in this instance would NOT prevent an individual from knowing such terms were ‘unacceptable’
…if you follow
Just missed the days of being pedantic – so don’t pay this post any mind – he he he
And this time not being pedantic…
It would be unfair on those Whites who do realise the offensiveness off the term
If we’re on the issue of shortening ethnic names, many are bona fide racial slurs. How about the contraction of ‘Pakistani’? I don’t think anyone would argue that’s incredibly racist.
I realized my apology to Alan before may have made it sounded as though I was ‘backing down’. And it was weak. I did not mean to back down, I acknowledged that things may have been different in his country but by saying it was an international space, I wasn’t giving him a permission I have no right to give to do as he pleased. I have no idea how things are in Australia and frankly, I wouldn’t consider any one person, especially a white one, a reliable source. Maybe he’s right. In my opinion, in terms of this space, it doesn’t matter.
Leigh, I don’t have your experience and this isn’t my issue or my call, but I agree with you. It’s really unacceptable.
Any name used to denigrate/make fun of others should not be used at all.
Well, then that includes about every ethnic term in the book, doesn’t it? Because “black” and “white” always get used to denigrate.
Let me clue you in on something: for most words, it’s not the word itself, but the TONE and INTENT. Yeah, some words have no use or few uses which can be non-racist. But “Jap”, “Yank”, “gringo”… these words all depend on intent.
If you censor every word that someone objects to, no matter what the intent of the person who enunciates it, you quickly reach a point where you can’t talk about race or ethnicity at all.
As for you finding it offensive, Leigh, fine. I’m sure Alan will refrain from using it in respect of your sensibilities. As for me not knowing what it’s like to have such words directed against me, you’d be wrong in that presumption.
So let me get this straight: the entire world is prohibitted from using “Jap” because of American racism during WWII?
Good luck getting that to fly in South America, where “Japa” routinely gets used as an ethnic label with no derrogatory intent necessarily implied.
And there you go, Thad. Always making assumptions as usual. *roll eyes* Yeah, I’m sure you’ve also been called the J-word. roll eyes again
“”"”"abagond
Americans are trained from a very early age to see people according to their race. There have been plenty of tests done on little children to prove this – despite what white people like to believe about being colour-blind.
The Japanese do not see the world in the American colour-coded way. To them there are the Japanese and then there are foreigners. Since nearly everyone in their country is Asian, seeing people according to race in the American sense is not useful.
So all these heavy racial messages commenters are reading into anime just are not there. It says way more about American hang-ups about race than Japanese ones.
Like take yellow hair: what can that possibly mean when anime characters can also have green hair or pink hair? Unless a character has a foreign name, hair colour says nothing about race.
Hair colour is used to make it easy to tell characters apart. Also certain hair colours tend to go with certain personality types. It is no more a message about race than Marge Simpson’s yellow skin is.
This is not to say that the Japanese are not racist and do not have their own hang-ups about race. They do. But they are not the American ones.”"”"”"”"
I would so love to believe this. Truly, however, I am a prof in a university that has a high % of ‘asian’ students, and trust, racist towards the dominant culture, ie. white. Absolutely, they also have ‘white’ skin, but why not ‘asian’ features? seriously? I do think I get the notion of Japanese seeing themselves through the Japanese ‘eye’ perspective, but, I cannot dismiss my experiences with thowse who are just off ‘the boat’, and Japanese/asians who are American. They appreciate their culture, but definately dig whiteness……..
@Thad:
I’ve never been called those two latter words because, guess what? I’m not either. roll eyes And what about the intent? So let’s see. I had some people calling me racist Asian slurs while pulling their eyes. Oh, and don’t forget the cowards who wrote those same slurs on my family’s garage while damaging the car. Yeah…it depends on the intent. roll eyes
And there you go, Thad. Always making assumptions as usual.
Leigh, do you even read what you write, let alone what others write? How is talking about my own experience “making assumptions”?
You claimed I don’t know a thing about being a target of racial slurs. Now you want to rectify that to being the target of the word “jap”?
Is that what you’re saying?
I’ve never been called those two latter words because, guess what? I’m not either.
Actually, Leigh, you would be a gringa here as it’s not a racial term. But Asian gringos usually get called “japas”.
I had some people calling me racist Asian slurs while pulling their eyes. Oh, and don’t forget the cowards who wrote those same slurs on my family’s garage while damaging the car. Yeah…it depends on the intent. roll eyes
Now I’m confused: you think ALAN trashed your family’s garage and was one of those kids you knew back in the day? Because it’s Alan’s intent I’m talking about, not the obviously offensive intent of the people you mention.
I’ve had people use “gringo” as a neutral and as a derogatory term. “Japa” gets used in much the same way down here.
@Oyan
I would so love to believe this. Truly, however, I am a prof in a university that has a high % of ‘asian’ students, and trust, racist towards the dominant culture, ie. white. Absolutely, they also have ‘white’ skin, but why not ‘asian’ features? seriously? I do think I get the notion of Japanese seeing themselves through the Japanese ‘eye’ perspective, but, I cannot dismiss my experiences with thowse who are just off ‘the boat’, and Japanese/asians who are American. They appreciate their culture, but definately dig whiteness……..
So you believe Japanese and Japanese-Americans behave in essentially the same way when it comes to race?
As an Australian I need to call out Alan B’stard on his bullshit.
“Jap” is not considered an acceptable phrase in public discourse anymore. You will never hear it used on TV in Australia.
Likewise for “Abo”.
Alan, you might use it around your social circle, but that does not make it widely accepted.
It’s different to “yank” or “kiwi”. It’s equivalent to “Paki” in the UK.
In any case, given that this is an international space, it would be asking very little of you to type “Japanese” instead of “Jap”. It’s only an extra 5 characters.
@ M:
Alan doesn’t speak for all Australians. I am one. He seems to think “Jap” is acceptable here. It’s not.
I don’t think it’s widely known by the American populace that some consider “Jap” offensive. Even Bill Clinton got in trouble for using the term while he was President.
“Any name used to denigrate/make fun of others should not be used at all.
Well, then that includes about every ethnic term in the book, doesn’t it? Because “black” and “white” always get used to denigrate.”
I’ve heard that “black” used to be considered a racial slur.
Cheers for the clarification ES
Eurasian Sensation–
Thank you for informing me. I should not have backed down from what I initially said.
*ignores a certain poster*
@Eurasian Sensation:
It definitely is not.
Well get back on the case ‘M’ (isn’t that James Bond secretary)…What are you waiting for, its not too late??
Generally, a person who wants to argue about whether a word is a slur or not doesn’t have an appropriate “tone” or “intent” in mind, and I think some of us already knew that. *looks at Thad*
For once, could you surprise everyone and accept that you don’t know everything rather than playing word games? the only places you get to decide what words are acceptable are in your classroom and your casa. Rather than wasting space writing about how different words mean different things in different locations (duh), why not think about what you have to gain by challenging someone in the first place?
P.S. The “tone and intent” argument doesn’t work well anyway. By the same token, I could call you (or anyone) an “assh*le” as long as I said it with a smile and intended to use it as a term of endearment. How silly is that?
@ M:
’tis ok, no problem in trying to be culturally sensitive; you weren’t to know.
Alan strikes me as someone who takes great pleasure in being provocative and politically incorrect. I suspect he is being a little disingenuous when he claims “Jap” is accepted in Australia. But it may just be the norm in whatever social circle he operates in.
50 years ago it would have been quite a normal word to use, particularly after the Japanese attacked northern Australia. Today, not at all.
M is the James Bond secretary. It also happens to be my first initial. Unfortunately, I’m not Bond’s secretary, but I’m working on it.
How does any white person, whether liberal, conservative or a member of the bloody BNP (which, I don’t know if any of you have clicked on Alan’s name into his website. It’s pretty–um, frightening) have the right to say what is a racial slur and what isn’t? Leigh is, in this case, the victim of the slur. She says it is a slur. Why is anyone else even ARGUING this?
@M:
Yes, I just checked it out. It seems to be some kind of racist, trolling site. Even the web address of this site is thetrollhouse.net.
Indeed. Some people like to argue for the sake of arguing, I guess.
@Jasmin
Generally, a person who wants to argue about whether a word is a slur or not doesn’t have an appropriate “tone” or “intent” in mind, and I think some of us already knew that. *looks at Thad*
Not going by the majority of the posts above, we don’t.
For once, could you surprise everyone and accept that you don’t know everything rather than playing word games?
Hey, I’m not the one presuming that words have a single and solitary meaning, am I? So I’m hardly playing word games. Folks who fetishize words so that they become more important than their intent, those would be the folks playing the games, Jasmin. It seems to me – and I might be wrong – that this whole discussion took a turn into “word games” when people started presuming that Alan is anti-Asian for using the word “jap”. Is there anything else to indicate that Alan is anti-Asian, rather than just unaware that some people find this word to be offensive?
the only places you get to decide what words are acceptable are in your classroom and your casa.
Ooh, she knows the Portuguese word for “house”! See, I happen to find that blatant ethnicizing a hell of a lot more offensive than Alan’s use of the word “Jap”. But then again, that’s just me.
Rather than wasting space writing about how different words mean different things in different locations (duh), why not think about what you have to gain by challenging someone in the first place?
As always, Jasmin, you advice would pack a heck of a lot more “oomph” if you yourself took it seriously.
The “tone and intent” argument doesn’t work well anyway. By the same token, I could call you (or anyone) an “assh*le” as long as I said it with a smile and intended to use it as a term of endearment. How silly is that?
Not silly at all. Another newsflash, Jasmin: people use “asshole”, “bastard” and similar words as terms of endearment ALL THE TIME. Even “motherf#$%er” gets used this way. There’s no way you can’t be aware of this very demonstrable fact, Jasmin.
And while I do agree that some words are so heavy that they should be no go (n#%%@r, for example), I don’t think “Jap” quite reaches that point. Though I DO think it’s ambiguous enough that Alan should refrain from using it if Leigh’s offended by it.
Er… looking at “Alan’s” site right now…
You folks ARE aware that this is a troll site, right? Or are we all to overly sincere and sensitive today to spot the flaming f#$%ing obvious?
I’d say we’ve been successfully trolled.
Good one, Alan.
I will now stop feeding the troll and refrain from discussing this anymore.
“Thanks Alan…
I understand completely, maybe more than most because Brazil is much that way. My inlaws have called me “Negao” (pronounced nay-gown) and I’m White. It means “Big Black” and is a term of endearment implying handsome, strong, tall. Only in Brazil I tell you! – or Australia
”
I like how laid back Brazilians are about these racial terminologies.
“Laid back” probably isn’t the right term. As a whole, Brazilians are more interested in intent rather than word fetishization. There’s not a single racial or ethnic term that I can think of that can’t be both used in a derrogatory or an endearing fashion, depending upon the context.
Thad,
Need help picking up your face?
“Casa” also means house in Spanish, as you probably know. I speak no Portuguese, so I wouldn’t know it meant the same thing in that language–you learn something new everyday.
And who’s “we”? Speak for yourself, mister!
@ Thad:
“Is there anything else to indicate that Alan is anti-Asian, rather than just unaware that some people find this word to be offensive?”
I assume you’ve worked it out now.
lol!
@Jasmin:
I met a friend’s acquaintance once and she asked me what my ethnic background was and she immediately said, “You must be the J-word.” I stated I wasn’t Japanese, but Filipino. Even when I told her my story such as the one I mentioned here that the J-word and other Asian slurs were used to denigrate Asians, she remarked, ” Then why would you be offended by the J-word if you’re not even Japanese?” Wth?! That just flew over her head. Anyway, this was right before I tore her a new one.
Ok I understand that the “default” human being in monoracial Japan will obviously be a Japanese person, therefore Asians watching amine will see the characters as such. Also I agree with Alan the troll that the Japanese, in aggregate, regard their culture superior to all others. Despite the fact that I feel into the “whites as default” trap and instantly thought of the anime characters as white Im not entire convinced. I know Asians, particularly women, that are into their own culture but dates whites exclusively because the feel whites and Eurasians are better looking than pure Asians. I had a friend (Asian female ethically Chinese but born and raised in Japan) tell me that in Japan whites are romanticized as being very beautiful and tall. She said it want until she moved to the US at age 11 that she learned this was a lie. A few months ago I read a Newsweek article about the colourism in the fashion industry and the author lamented on how Eastern European models frequency appear in Japanese adverts and are favored over Asian models
I think Mel said it best:
And, Abagond, like other posters have stated, the influence of white-western culture on Asians cannot be dismissed.
There is an affinity for white-Europeanness that goes beyond what is natural. 1/3 of Asians females in western society date and marry white men exclusively. The phenomenon of Asians who say they’re just “not” attracted to other Asians is too high.
In Asia, the models,actors, pop stars and TV hosts who are the most popular are either Eurasian or Asians who’ve gotten surgery to “fix” their eyelids so it looks mostly “western” (white)
I read an article a few months back about an Asian artist who created an image of the ideal female, based on what Asians found attractive, and not surprisingly, the character looked more European than Asian.
So, while I agree that the characters of the Last Airbender are Asians, I don’t agree that there wasn’t some conscious effort put into making the Anime characters appear more western.
PS. Look at the Boondocks characters. No one would mistake them for whites or Asians. They just look black.
Sorry Zaire is me!
Leigh,
Wow. Your friend needs a friend upgrade–more like you, less like that girl.
I think many (White) people don’t realize that arguments against using racial slurs are often unrelated to “personal feelings”. Maybe it’s because they’ve been used so often, but most (adult) people of color aren’t going to fall to pieces over being called [insert racial slur here]. So a White person making it an issue of “Well, I didn’t mean to hurt your feelings” is stupid to me because the issue is his/her ignorance, not my feelings. I feel like that’s a coded way to say, “Sorry I used it in front of you” when what should really be said is “Sorry I’m an ignorant dipsh*t.”
I will not bow down to this manufactured “racism” . Jap is not offensive where I’m from, and after what the Japs did in the war they are damned lucky that’s all we call them. If I was a Jew you wouldn’t tell me to stop calling a german a “kraut”
I will not be changing my culturally aceptable ways to appease the PC club. If anyone is offended, that is between them and their psychiatist
Please don’t force your marxist venom down my throat. As usual, the racism appears to be manufactured anglo only racism
As M said, it’s an international forum. Societes are different
For that person that said i was brought up in an all white neighbourhood, Australia then was all white and all Anglo, but we listened and surcumbed to the New York and Washington trash and brought in immigrants, many of whom are criminal trash and none needed, regardless of how decent as individuals they were
You have been brought up in a multicult and of course the Marxists have invented words you can’t say, which is rubbish.
You have wish to silence your own people and tell them they can’t say this or that, and keep different people hating each other, but you won’t silence me
Never! Those who don’t like me saying “Jap’ don’t even think of making me conform to your ways.
You have no right! Be offended. Falsley offended i suspect
Oh yes, the trollhouse.net
That is indeed a troll site. That’s it’s prpose and it’s fun. I admit it’s racist and God knows what else, the language is vile, but it’s mostly in fun
But that has no place here. This is a differenct place altogether
You’ve not seen me trolling here have you?
You should go in to trollhouse to belt it out. The biggest haters there and on fuckfrance.com are jewsLOL. They are there bigtime
Alan said:
“Never! Those who don’t like me saying “Jap’ don’t even think of making me conform to your ways.
You have no right! Be offended. Falsley offended i suspect”
I am pretty laid back but just so you know I do have a comment policy and I have banned some people.
you may well have a comment policy. You must respect people have different cultures and values in the world and if it’s anyone who should be offended it’s me, however I’m not
You types that think you speak for the people of the planet should realize yo9ur way is not every way, and words and phrases have different meanings in different nations
Once people realize that someone from another culture and country is speaking the normal way as they know it then surely context should be taken into account
Ban me if you like. That only shows evidence of intolerance on your part, and shows evidence of what we’ve come to expect from the PC ” newspeak” crowd. So you are in effect you ban people you have no legal control over and whose ways are different to yours
Not very productive to your cause
Thye thing about people who push this stuff is that they think they are the law of the world
Not as far as the rest of the planet is concerned
You wanna do something production against racism? Go find some real racism, mysogeny, and do something about it, instread of picking on foreign white men you can’r control you appear to control your own
quote you in part
“I am pretty laid back ”
No you’re not. You try to control people and take over their language. You won’t make people change to your way of thinking by banning them. It also showd you have no real influence
Ban me if you wish. We both stay the same and you get nowhere educating the world
I notice you quoted me refusing to conform.
living proff you want people, espeically white manles to be your lapdog.
Not this one sweetie. Go educate the Chinese and the Pakistanis and see what happens
Look how the convo has been derailed to ethnic slurs can we just agree that it is offensive and move on, shouldn’t the person who the word is hurled at get to decide wheter it is offensive or not.
——————–
Osamu Tezuka has stated that he was inspired by Disney’s style and etc. The Betty Boop and Astro Boy confirms it.
The whole “default human being” thing I don’t know how many times I have said that when I said that anime characters are not white if there is a white character or a half white character in anime they would be drawn slightly different marking them as non Japanese.
Aiyo
I made no ethnic slur, although there are those that claim i did. I also have defenders
The style for anime in Japan has changed little. At the time, the style could have been a commercial decisionby an individual, rather than a cultural one
I’m not really into anime, but I guess I always assumed characters weren’t really humans, but humanoid aliens of some sorts. I never thought they might be white (or non-white), or Japanese per se.
What about the Smurfs? Are they white? (Ok, we know they are communists
, but white?)
http://images.fanpop.com/images/image_uploads/Smurfs-wallpaper-the-smurfs-251131_1024_768.jpg
Note yellow skinned savage (?) Smurf in the lower right part of the image.
Looks like this post touched a nerve, this is good. I like your site a lot, and it’s good to see people getting their feathers ruffled and long-standing beliefs challenged. Dear god, should anyone question a white man’s god-given right to say the slur ‘Jap’. Especially Australian white men.
Yeah, it is the white man’s fault. We brought the world shit like the Monty Python and Stephen King and Mad Men and every other “look how intellectual we can be without actually dealing with any real issues or questioning our privledge” BS cultural text which gives us undue pride without ever offering anything thoughtful.
I wish you would be more specific
it appears my first reply to Dylan has beeen “intercepted”
I deleted it.
Alan:
You can say PC this and Marxist that but you know full well that by using that word you are being a racist jerk. If you did not know it yesterday, you certainly know it today.
Alan said:
“You try to control people and take over their language. You won’t make people change to your way of thinking by banning them.”
Hardly. I am merely asking them to behave like decent human beings instead of racist jerks. There is no reason on earth to use an ethnic slur apart from offending people.
I enabled comments on my blog so that people can have a somewhat serious discussion, not so that they can call each other names. I have been running this blog long enough to know where that leads: nowhere fast.
Well here is some thing I found from researching the net
“Asians were significantly more likely to say the characters were Asian, and Caucasians were significantly more likely to say characters were Caucasian. So it seems that we are simply more likely to see our own race in anime characters than the race of others…”
Lu, A.S. (2009). What Race Do They Represent and Does Mine Have Anything to Do with It? Perceived Racial Categories of Anime Characters Animation, 4 (2), 169-190 DOI:
http://scienceblogs.com/cognitivedaily/2009/11/anime_film_characters_do_we_pe.php
J:
Oh beautiful! Thank you.
And again..and it seems like well done Oyan
“How come most Anime characters don’t even look Japanese?”
The origin of the wide-eyed, sometimes non-Japanese looking characters in Anime goes all the way back to the history of Western Expansion. After World War II, Japan’s economy was in serious trouble and in desperate need of revenue to rebuild the devastated country.
Being forbidden to maintain an army of it’s own, Japan was free to devote all the money that would normally be spent on defense to commercial industry. Along with electronics and cars, the animation industry benefited from this as well. Now, with no army and increasing participation in the world economy, Japan started seeing a lot more of “white westerners.”
Just like people of Caucasian descent have sometimes thought those of Asian origin look odd due to their characteristic narrower eyes and black hair, so too have people in Asia thought that westerners are all wide-eyed and pale-skinned with widely colored hair. Through various means, this view of white foreigners, which started in manga (Japanese comics) and found it’s way into Anime, became the predominant animation style.
This is why Anime has large eyed characters, why eyes seem to always “twinkle” and show a lot of glare (the Japanese view westerners as very emotional), and why we often see blue or green or some other odd hair color (an exaggeration of different Caucasian hair colors).
From this, an art form was created that has only increased in popularity since it’s conception. Today, much Anime still uses this style, although there are numerous character designs that are beginning to get away from this trend.”
http://www.allspryaction.com/anime.html
The Portrayal of Race in Japanese Manga & Anime
http://www.focusanthro.org/archive/2007-2008/saunders07-08.pdf
agabond. I am not a racist. i have used no such language. i can see by the tone of disliking white women and whites in general some of you are straight from studying feminism 101
You have the gaul to accuse me of using offensive language when it’s standard stuff where I’m from. You don’t even acknowledge it may be different in another part of the world
why did you delete that post? Because it made sense that’s why!
@ Alan:
“You have the gaul to accuse me of using offensive language when it’s standard stuff where I’m from. You don’t even acknowledge it may be different in another part of the world”
I’m from your part of the world. And I’ll tell you straight up – “Jap” is not an acceptable term anymore.
If a public figure used that term in Australia they would get castigated for it.
Call it political correctness if you like. But that’s the way it is.
You and your friends might think it’s an OK word to use. But you and your friends are not “Australia”.
Don’t claim to speak for Australia, because you are only speaking for yourself.
So it seems that we are simply more likely to see our own race in anime characters than the race of others
What does that say about my racial identity?
lol
Alan:
I deleted your comment because you used an ethnic slur, not because its bright, shiny rays of truth were too hard for me to bear.
Eurasian sensation yes it is acceptable. It’s been around a long time, and newspeak an PC is not acceptable
Your name “Eurasian”. Does that mean you are Eurasian,? Probably a recent arrival post war?
Tell us Eurasion, please qualify your statement?
Having had a quick glance at
The Portrayal of Race in Japanese Manga & Anime
If the article is correct it just shows and reveals the extent of what is known as ‘historical cultural imperialism’ and how ‘White supremacy’ on specifically a cultural level is insiduous, and so hard to get away from.
what! White supremacy. How are the whites to be blamed for supremacy here.
Are you sane?
@ EurasianSensation
Thanks for the comments from Down Under! I guess I was gullible enough to think that particular terminology was ok.
@ Jasmin
I don’t think you were referring to my comments, but for insight, Brazil is definitely unique in its non “PC” ways. Coming from an “American” mindset one might find the use of certain words unacceptable. Not so in Brazil… I hope you weren’t inferring that I was “ignorant” in any way for having a relatives call me “Negao” in Salvador Brazil.
Its like the term gringo… Latinos in the U.S. call me that, I take offense!!! In L.A, I’ll punch the guy in the face (unless he has a gun.) In Brazil, I refer to myself as a gringo. There is no ill intent. Understanding is the key and it is often times the lack of understanding. Americans think “like Americans” OR what they have gathered from other Latinos, and in this case, not like “Brazilians”. I work in Miami. I’m the only Anglo-American in my office. I speak Spanish, Portuguese and English on a daily basis. I work with several Brazilians and have used the term gringo loosely when talking with them in reference to myself. One of my Venezuelan colleagues used the term and I had to politely let him know that in Portuguese its meaning is different. If he understands this, then we’re cool. If he “plays” with it inferring something inferior, we’re going to have a problem. (So far, so good!)
As for “trolls”, well – they think like “trolls”.
CHEERS…
@ Alan:
I’m born in Australia; my mother is Indonesian and my father’s family (English/Irish) has been in Australia for several generations. Can I ask what that has to do with anything?
“Jap” may have been acceptable once, but that was then. Times change. The war was a long time ago.
Using that term does not make you a racist. However, if you continue to use it when a number of people have asked you nicely not to, it does make you seem insensitive and not a very nice person.
Even if you consider it to be acceptable, consider that you are a guest on Abagond’s blog. If he asks you to refrain from certain words, that is his right. I disagree with numerous things he has to say, but I hope I always do it respectfully.
Many Australian males think it acceptable to jokingly refer to each other as “c–ts” as well. I assume you do not think it would be OK to use that terminology here?
And please do not act like you are being oppressed here by not being allowed to say “Jap”. It’s a matter of typing 5 extra characters. Get some perspective.
CoL,
Nope.
My comment was generalizing anyone who’d write a diatribe (or several comments worth of defense) for an ethnic slur, rather than just letting. it. go.
You probably already know that “gringo” has the same meaning in Spanish–it doesn’t bother me, but Spanish-speakers rarely call me that; they’ll call me “morena”, which is usually directed towards me as a term of endearment or an attempt at flirtation.
Colour o love.
Why are you taking his word? “Japs” is not considered offensive
well C o L Why do you take his word, and what are his qualifications to make such a statement/
Ask his for any references that say it’s unacceptable
C o L, you are ageeing with him as he says what you want to hear
“japs’ is short for ‘japanese ‘
If i said slant eyed bow legged buck toothed little bastards as one radio announcer did, that would be racist
Heeb is short for Hebrew. P*ki is short for Pakistani. The n word is a variation on “negro”, which was once considered an acceptable term.
Do you mean to tell me you don’t believe these words are ethnic slurs either?
I still can’t see the problem. You have learned this from somewhere
The term “japs” is acceptable and I am asking you to supply sources as to why it isn’t
Why don’t you approach the japs about their racism?
The war may have been long ago for you and me, but a lot of Australians remember the horror of the japs and their brutality
Now though, you see a japanese person in the street, he’s still a “jap” but not for racial reasons
Of course you Indonesians have a well earned reputation for brutality, don’t you. Do the names , Suharto and Sukarno come to mind?
Alan –
I generally give way when someone who is of the Asian persuasion says they find it offensive…
I would feel more comfortable if a survey on the Asian population Down Under responded with a majority of that group as “finding the term acceptable”.
I can talk Brazil all day long, but I have to concede on Australia as that is outside my cultural foundation.
Asians have nothing to do with this. This is Japanese only and there’s not many here
You talk about Asian sensitivites, what about the sensitivities of their victims. They are prone to crime, that’s why the police here have an ‘Asian crime squad.
Frankly, I’m sick and tired of people being “offended”
@ Alan:
“Of course you Indonesians have a well earned reputation for brutality, don’t you. Do the names , Suharto and Sukarno come to mind?”
This is the funniest thing you’ve said all day. There’s so many things wrong with you saying this to me that I can’t even be bothered to explain it to you.
I have some Irish ancestors. Are you going to blame me for the brutality of the IRA as well?
you mean you can’t explain why ‘jap” is offensive
Here you go again with the collective mentality. No Asian person you’re going to run into on the street had anything to do with bombing your country. You cannot blame a group for the actions of some of its individuals.
i’m not blaming them for bombing the country. Stop manking up things in your and please read
@ Jasmin -
Thanks for clarification. Spanish speakers and Portuguese speakers share a lot of commonalities; however, there are some things to be aware of. (just as there are differences in meaning/connotation between certain words among the Spanish speaking countries.)
Here is a funny example: “Pinga” A Spanish speaker may find that word vulgar or offensive as it means “that particular organ of the male anatomy.” In Portugues, you may here somebody say, “I want to take a ‘pinga” please.” Which really means, “I want a rum drink please.” (aguardente/aguardiente)
Spanish “tomar pinga” = uh oh! ! ! Say again? LOL
Portuguese “tomar pinga” = the norm
“Why don’t you approach the japs about their racism?
The war may have been long ago for you and me, but a lot of Australians remember the horror of the japs and their brutality”
Your quote.
yes that’s correct. Your point?
My point is that any brutality committed by soldiers in the military has precious little to do with anyone you’re going to run into now.
yes we know this
alwaysright,
so are there any black anime characters? i mean, i am not interested in japanese animation (i was very briefly years ago when I was 14).
and if there are black anime characters are they good or bad?
They used to be almost exclusively Western stereotypes of blacks. Over the past few years, though, things have been changing, even though black anime characters are still very much in the minority and are usually relegated as sidekicks or American stereotypes.
Then why do you use it as a justification for using the word?
Before you deny that’s what you meant, “after what the Japs did in the war they are damned lucky that’s all we call them. If I was a Jew you wouldn’t tell me to stop calling a german a “kraut””.
I am, in fact, a Jew, my grandmother is a Holocaust survivor and I do not resent the current German people–they had nothing to do with it. If, as with slavery in America, they continued to denigrate and hold down my people after the Holocaust, things might be different.
I don’t. i cleary explained they’re still referred to japs with reference to the war. While we are on it though, people are entitled, if they wish, to have a dislike of the japanese due to their behaviour in the POW camps I personally have no problem with the modern japanese
You wouldn’t tell a jew he shouldn’t call germans “Krauts”
Kraut is not an established ethnic slur and Germans are not a minority group. However, as I said, I’m a Jew and I don’t resent Germans.
@ M:
Alan thinks I am genetically brutal because of what the Presidents of my mother’s country did half a century ago. And he thinks his suffering at not being able to say “Jap” is greater than Leigh204′s suffering at having it used as a slur against her. His unwillingness to actually listen to what anyone else has to say has successfully derailed this thread, and I suspect he is quite happy about that.
You clearly have the patience of the Buddha if you think you can speak reason with him.
There are around 40,000 Japanese in Australia, by the way.
If anyone wants to correct me on the “Kraut” issue, feel free to do so and unlike Alan, I will back down. Perhaps saying it “wasn’t a slur” was wrong, what I meant to say was that it didn’t carry the same weight the word he’s using does and isn’t in common usage.
Alan, I don’t know how many Jewish people you know but the majority I do don’t go around harping on the modern German people. In fact, we don’t care. Most people I know view the Holocaust as a situation of Jew v. non-Jew as opposed to Jew v. German.
Eurasian Sensation–
I agree with everything you said.
*sigh*
It’s really not worth trying, is it?
Okay, can we get back to the topic, people, please?
Most of the comments here have been great. I’ve never been a fan of anime, but I certainly have learned a lot more about the subject than I previously knew.
I definitely have a different perspective on it now.
Natasha–
Sounds excellent.
57,000 in Australian & New Zealand
24 thousand permanent resident in Austraqlia. The rest business people on trasfer etc and their children
They are not a minority group, as say, Vietnamese, or Chinese
anime history
http://www.japaneselifestyle.com.au/culture/anime_history.html
M., thanks.
On topic: I’ve never seen anime characters a “race.” They were always well… anime characters. But if I were pressed to give them an ethnicity, I would probably say they seem Japanese since their style/culture seems more Japanese.
On the other hand, I did think Marge Simpson was white because the Simpsons makes pretty clear delineations in race and ethnicity by giving people different skin colors, accents, etc (e.g. Apu = Indian, Dr. Hibbert = black).
With regard to my former comment
“I feel we would need to know a little about the creators of these type of comics, history, who are they marketed to etc…
before a conclusion can be properly drawn”
It appears that the construction of these characters did take as reference if even partially ‘the default white’, but paradoxically from a Japanese perspective.
CoL,
That’s a funny story! If I heard you say that, I don’t think I’d think it was a bad thing, since the slang word for that body part that I’ve heard used most often is “polla”. So if you taught me that “tomar pinga” = “drink rum” then I’d probably walk around asking for that at the cantina.
On topic: I don’t see anime characters as having a “race” either, just like I don’t see the Smurfs or Mickey and Minnie Mouse as having a race (maybe those last two don’t count, since they’re animals). If I had to pick one though, I’d call them Asian just because I’m most familiar with that style of drawing in Asian (usually Japanese) cartoons and movies (stuff by Miyazaki, etc.).
Sadly, Alan B appears to belong to a special class of whites (re: conservatives) who think it’s their god-given right to offend whoever they want.
Jap, Paki, etc are offensive terms.
Alan, stop arguing for the right to use them.
interesting
@Jasmin
“Casa” also means house in Spanish, as you probably know. I speak no Portuguese, so I wouldn’t know it meant the same thing in that language–you learn something new everyday.
I guess latinity is just one big homogenous morass then, huh?
And who’s “we”? Speak for yourself, mister
Right after you start doing the same, aminginha.
BtW, why the hell are we still burning words on a guy who’s an obvious troll, who even advertises himself as such?
I thought Alan was serious. Now it’s quite obvious that he’s going to say whatever he can to subtly jerk peoples’ strings.
I mean, I can understand why someone might say “Jap” and not mean it in a derrogatory sense. OK, fair go. But you’re a white Austrailan and a filipina tells you to please stop and you insist on continuing?
Why? To intentionally be offensive.
Troll.
Thad,
You are not making any sense. What does Spanglish have to do with “a homogenous mass”? I think most people (Spanish or Portuguese speaking or not) know what a casa is.
And thanks for stating the obvious like 10 years after the fact, in case we missed it. (Because Leigh and ES saying it wasn’t good enough?)
the people drawn by Katsuhiro Otomo in Akira look Japanese. the people drawn in oh, say Bleach look WHITE.
i do not subscribe to the default nonsense at all.
most anime/manga characters are white people, plain and simple.
Jasmin, like I said, salienting ethnicity by dropping in words is as offensive to me as saying “jap” is to Leigh.
What do you mean a troll. No, I’m standing up for my right to speak in my culutally acceptble. If that doesn’t suit you PC types, too bad
oops “culturally”
So what do you think about “Debbie Does Dallas Again”, Alan?
off topic ol chap. take it elsewhere. You wanna discuss that, see my link and go there. That is not for here
Alan said:
“What do you mean a troll. No, I’m standing up for my right to speak in my culutally acceptble. If that doesn’t suit you PC types, too bad”
No, you are standing up for your right to act like an ignorant jerk.
Did anyone stop to think it’s only a stylised cartoon, and there is no racial intent by the originators, save making it more commercially viable for a large western audience, and that is only a “maybe”
There is no philosophising required. No mystery about what the originators were trying to achieve
There is very little racial intent in anime because it was created by and for a people who are all the same race – the Japanese. It is Americans who read racial intent into it. The Japanese are just drawing people – it is Americans who are trying to put them into racial boxes, as they do to everyone they meet.
I got here late, so I don’t know if anyone has made a similar comment.
Like Disney characters I thought of Anime as portraying people as anthropomophism. Instead of animals being given human characteristic, they give their otherly characters the human characteristics, qualities of the Japanese. White isn’t seen to be worshiped it it seen to represent the other.
I seem to remember a few Black Anime portrayals.
@abagond:
An ignorant jerk by another name would still be an ignorant jerk.
@Jasmin:
Co-sign.
then what about non white people and their racial and cultural conscienceness? What about their names for others, such as the Chinese referring to whites as “the white devils “?
then what about non white people and their racial and cultural conscienceness?
What about it? This post is about why Japanese draw themselves as white, not racist name-calling(that in itself would be another post). Sir, I am a fan of animation in various genre and guises. I am enjoying the information via links provided. You sir are putting a damper on this. As for Chinese calling whites ‘white devils’, given the history, ie: the Boxer Rebellion to name one, there would have been a lot worse names I would have called them, ‘white devils’ notwithstanding.
There is very little racial intent in anime because it was created by and for a people who are all the same race – the Japanese. It is Americans who read racial intent into it. The Japanese are just drawing people – it is Americans who are trying to put them into racial boxes, as they do to everyone they meet.
Then how come there are very little black anime characters? And when they are presented, they’re usually relegated to stereotypes or silly sidekick characters? Sounds an awful lot like how blacks are portrayed in the West, no? Or how Chinese are portrayed as being very “Asian”? I understand that a country will tend to gravitate towwards its own particular brand of ethnocentrism, but in anime, the Japanese are portrayed as racially “ambiguous”, or look pretty close to being white. Nobody’s saying that they are white, but rather, strictly going by appearance, they look as such.
Furthermore, I don’t believe everything is the West or America’s fault. Similarly, it has nothing to do with projecting Western thought onto Japanese culture. Japan has taken on many ways of America & the West, particularly when it comes to the concept of white racial supremacy, even though the Japanese already had their concept of ethnic/racial supremacy, which is pretty similar to the West’s concept of light skin = good, dark skin = bad.
Thad,
Let me make this easy for you:
1. Spanglish is what I speak (write) sometimes, especially if I’ve been switching words in and out all day.
2. The beauty of Spanglish is that plenty of people who speak no Spanish can understand it. Examples of Spanish words non-Spanish speakers understand: casa, most words with ición or ación at the end, teléfono, etc.
3. It seems pretty silly to think that directing Spanglish at you (given the above examples) is some method of conflating Spanish with Portuguese. You tried to insinuate that I was using Portuguese on purpose, then (once again) had to pick up your face when you found out I didn’t speak Portuguese. So you changed your story (and still need to pick up your face), given that it’s unlikely that anyone reading this thread doesn’t understand what a casa is (and even comments directed at you are read by everyone, so I would have to type something I would think only you would understand–pretty hard since I don’t speak your language–in order to make it clear that I was using Portuguese to bug you.
4. Conflating your “indignation” with how Leigh feels about the J-word is just ignorant and tacky, but that’s your prerogative (surprise surprise).
@Jasmin:
Yeah, isn’t he a trip?
@ Alan:
then what about non white people and their racial and cultural conscienceness? What about their names for others, such as the Chinese referring to whites as “the white devils “?
If someone calls anyone a white devil here, I’m sure they will be criticised for it. But who is doing that here? No one. So why bring it up? This thread has been derailed enough already.
Brilliant condensation of what I try to tell people about anime. I don’t know how one can contend that anime characters are white when the stories primarily take place in Japan, the characters have Japanese names and do things that are deeply ingrained in Japanese culture. When I began taking classes in Asian film I was required to read about the history and culture of the countries. Perhaps if more did that instead of simply consuming the culture they would have a better idea of how non-white these folks are.
@J “Was ther not a time when Japanese were referred to as ‘honorary whites’…”
I think it was when they were “invited” to partake of the “luxurious accommodations” of internment camps. Learn some history start with Ron Takaki.
Jasmin, let’s make it very clear for you: ethnic insults are in the eye of the beholder, correct? As someone who suffers daily from the use of ethnic othering in language to mark frontiers which exclude me, I am insulted by your attempt to do the same.
I just figured I’d speak to you anglos in “victimization”, which seems to be your favorite dialect.
The Japanese were designated as ‘Honorary Whites’ in Apartheid-era South Africa (this is not a compliment of course), but the Japanese did not complain, even while the Chinese were treated as second-class citizens in South Africa.
I think it was when they were “invited” to partake of the “luxurious accommodations” of internment camps. Learn some history start with Ron Takaki.
Furthermore,
I don’t think the Anime characters are white. But, they LOOK white. The Japanese (and other Asians) are conditioned to find people of European descent more aesthetically pleasing, and for them the fantasy to to emulate (physically), white-European features, while the characters remain culturally Japanese.
“I just figured I’d speak to you anglos in “victimization”, which seems to be your favorite dialect.”
So true, though I must admit that I’m guilty of this as well. I feel the victimization mentality is becoming more a hindrance than a solution to injustice and inequality.
Just as how the Japanese were treated much better than the Chinese in apartheid-era South Africa and deemed as honorary whites, until the Imperial Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, the Japanese immigrants of America were treated better and received more warmly than the Chinese. It wasn’t easy, and I know that non-WASP immigrants were trying to find a good position in WASP American society, but in the fervently anti-Asian West Coast, the Japanese never complained, assimilated into American society as best as they could at the time, and in turn whites took kindly to them. They were the “model minority”, to use the old term.
Plus, anytime a white racist wants to point to a “model minority” country, they usually point to Japan, perhaps either aware of unaware of just how racist and nationalistic the Japanese people are.
To me many of the anime characters resemble stylized versions of white children and young white teens (most young white children don’t have long and/or very projecting noses). The only thing that’s remotely “Mongoloid” looking about some of the Asian anime characters is that they’re sometimes drawn with wide and relatively flat faces whereas whites tend to have longer, more narrow faces. The most bizarre feature of the Asian characters is their round eyes. Their size doesn’t matter — they could still be huge but slanted; that would make much more sense as a stylized depiction of East Asian people. Depicting all the Japanese characters as having round eyes is similar to depicting all Black Americans as having straight hair…yeah, some do, but most do not.
It would be interesting to see what would happen if a Black animator used the same/similar anime stylized characterizations — fair skin, huge eyes w/varied eye colors, no lips, tiny nose/no nose, blond and brown (blue, green, purple) straight hair — but with a black American cultural presentation, and then insisted that the characters don’t actually look white and are strictly Black culturally, anyway….
@FG
So true, though I must admit that I’m guilty of this as well. I feel the victimization mentality is becoming more a hindrance than a solution to injustice and inequality.
Nods.
We no longer speak of political solutions. Now, it’s more often a case of who can rhetorically mobilize the largest quantity of nasty personal experiences.
As an admitted anime fan (ever since back in the days when anime translated for an USian was americanized), this subject has always been an interest to me that the american-made, Avatar cartoon seemed to have brought to a wider audience.
Unfortunately, the poor moderation of topic has made the comment section hideously difficult to navigate for more information and discussion, or even bother slogging through for anything useful. =/
It would be interesting to see what would happen if a Black animator used the same/similar anime stylized characterizations — fair skin, huge eyes w/varied eye colors, no lips, tiny nose/no nose, blond and brown (blue, green, purple) straight hair — but with a black American cultural presentation, and then insisted that the characters don’t actually look white and are strictly Black culturally, anyway….
Thank you!
@ Paisley:
“It would be interesting to see what would happen if a Black animator used the same/similar anime stylized characterizations — fair skin, huge eyes w/varied eye colors, no lips, tiny nose/no nose, blond and brown (blue, green, purple) straight hair — but with a black American cultural presentation, and then insisted that the characters don’t actually look white and are strictly Black culturally, anyway….”
I think there are a few flaws in comparing Japanese to black Americans in this context.
Black Americans would create such cartoons in a context of a multi-racial society in which there are both black and white people. And in which there are issues of black and white identity.
Japanese create these cartoons in a context of a monocultural society where virtually everyone is Japanese.
Also, to a cartoonist, the differences between a Japanese person and a Westerner are less obvious than between a black person and a white person.
Note that dyeing of hair in Japan is pretty common, and in a cartoon it is useful to differentiate characters from one another.
KeyserSoze and Paisley,
It would be interesting to see what would happen if a Black animator used the same/similar anime stylized characterizations — fair skin, huge eyes w/varied eye colors, no lips, tiny nose/no nose, blond and brown (blue, green, purple) straight hair — but with a black American cultural presentation, and then insisted that the characters don’t actually look white and are strictly Black culturally, anyway….
Actually, I don’t think Anime fans would care. There may be some Black animators or cartoonist who do this. They don’t describe their reason or approach it on a “conscious” level. Anime is seen as a stylize form to other artist not Japanese.
I never got the fascination with the form. but my son a visual artist was fascinated with every form of cartoons and animation. As I said earlier, I don’t see the difference in using Mickey Mouse, Tom and Jerry, Goofy as any different than any Anime character, only that the females are more sexualized.
Sorry. That was uncalled for.
Let’s put it this way, Leigh: I sincerely don’t think you’re capable of respecting any opinion that’s not 100% in agreement with your own. You think disagreement is a put down and take every chance you get to try to ridicule the people you dislike in hopes that they will shut up and quit challenging your views – however small the challenge may be.
If you were given the power to censor, this would be a very quite world, indeed.
Alan is a TROLL. He’s tweaking you to get a reaction. And he’s a very subtle troll. You seem to take what he says seriously and believe that the rest of the world should as well and by doing so, you give him power.
As for his original point, I still do not see “Jap” as being necessarily offensive. As I said originally, it depends on the context. And yes: even “asshole” can be an endearing term, depending on the context.
You, on the other hand, seem to think that all words needs must mean what you feel they should mean, all the time, everywhere. And to bolster your supposed authority in this department, you give us a sad story about being picked upon when you were a kid – something no one else can apparently relate to because, Lord knows, the only kind of evilness kids get up to involves picking on young Asian women.
Now it’s obviously registered with you, but several times above I have said Alan shouldn’t be tossing terms around that apply to you if you feel offended by them. “Jap” doesn’t even apply to you, but given your experience with it, I can see why you wouldn’t like it. But sh1t, Leigh, it’s no wonder you get trolled: you bounce around this site with a chip yey big on your shoulder and a big “troll me” sign pasted on your forehead.
Have a nice one.
First it was Japanese admire pale skin. And now the hair color issue is being explained away by stating that the Japanese use hair dye. I suppose next it will be the popularity of blepharoplasty and the use of color contacts among the Japanese as rationalizations for why the Japanese anime characters lack an epicanthus and have an assortment of eye colors. All this in a bizarre effort to convince others that cartoons which resemble Caucasians more than any East Asian I’ve ever seen don’t actually resemble Caucasians.
It’s one thing to say the characters are supposed to REPRESENT the Japanese regardless of what they look like, but it’s a whole other thing to try and convince me that they actually look Japanese when they don’t.
LOL — if all this is an attempt at using a Jedi Mind Trick or something, it’s not working! Those characters don’t look East Asian no matter what kind of spin you put on it.
Great post!
@ Thad:
“You think disagreement is a put down”
It might help if some of your disagreements sounded less like put-downs.
Just sayin’.
Paisley,
for some reason they are getting into the philosophies and race characteristics of anime.
I don’t think there is any. There is plently of info available on the net should they care to look
I deleted the comments about crime in Australia.
why did you do that abagond? How dare you.
It is clear you cannot construct argument with facts.
You blame whites for everything as as soon as I post something important you remove them
You are a disgrace and an intellectual pygmy
I trust you deleted all remarks re crime in Australia and not just mine?
Alan:
It was way off topic. It was bad enough that I allowed the whole ethnic slur thing.
I deleted them all – Thad’s and Eurasian’s too.
I deleted some of the ad hominem back and forth between Thad, Jasmin and Leigh, particularly the ones about potato chips.
fair enough then. I retract the previous remarks
I agree with Paisley’s last comments.
Strictly at a logical level it is very difficult to use all this ‘mental gymnastics’ as Paisley has alluded to and at the same time suggest there is no reference to
a ‘default human being’ in the form of Caucasian.
If it can be done, with the historicity of the links provided. Then I would very much like to know??
On a different level, I wonder to what extent how many do or as they case may be do not see the ‘default human being’ withn the media, and consequently its impact psychologically??
Hmmm!!!
@AS
It might help if some of your disagreements sounded less like put-downs.
Hey, I call things like I see them. What I do NOT do – or at least try very hard not to do – is flame people, then whine to mods when I get flamed back.
I call things as I see them, too.
And enough is ENOUGH. You think what you think. And I think what I think.
Abagond,
Spelled my name wrong *tisk tisk*.
Given your blog content, I’m surprised you don’t get on Thad more for being the “know-it-all White person” (not a slam, just the most accurate description I can think of at the moment). I don’t think you condone it, but I’m surprised you call out commenters for Racism 1.0 ethnic slurs but not Racism 2.0 listening fails. Just sayin’…
Actually, I don’t think Anime fans would care.
The few animes/mangas with a black lead character or those that exist with majority non-white, non-Japanese cast is either nonexistent and/or nowhere near as popular abroad or in Japan, compared to other series with a racially ambiguous cast who practice Japanese customs. How many black anime characters have you seen that are a crucial part of a series, and whom have as large a fanbase as other characters who aren’t black? If you want to find what I call “oblivious racists”, look no further than anime fans.
A show or movie with a majority or all-black cast are relegated to being “black shows/movies” in the West, — what makes you think things would change when it comes to anime?
I mean otaku(hardcore anime fans), not non-obsessive ones.
I agree with Paisley
And enough is ENOUGH. You think what you think. And I think what I think.
Fine by me, Leigh. You’ll notice I didn’t say one evil word about you in the post above and in fact SUPPORTED the idea that Alan shouldn’t be tossing the J word around.
That apparently wasn’t enough to keep you from going off on me, however.
Here was our original exchange, btw:
Thad
Jap” is offensive? Does that mean “Yank” and “Brit” are offensive, too?
Sorry, I can`t see commonly used contractions as offensive, in spite of what kids may have called you back in the day. I got called a “Yank” and got called that in a degradory tone. So does that make “Yank” a slur?
You’ll note the post wasn’t attack, nor was it in any way, shape or form “telling you how you should think”.
And here’s how you responded:
leigh204
You know what, Thad? Any name used to denigrate/make fun of others should not be used at all. Btw, I do find being called a J-word offensive because I had white people call me that as well and other slurs at the same time. So don’t you dare tell me what I should believe! You don’t me nor my personal experience so bug off!
In other words, you took a comment of mine, warped it somehow into me telling what to believe and then told me to “bug off” (which is effectively the same thing as “f$%& off”, only without four letter weords). Leigh, you SERIOUSLY seem to believe that people who articulate an opinion that’s different from yours are somehow “telling you what to think”.
And every single comment of mine to you for the next few days following was completely polite, but they were followed by a barrage of teenage-style sarcastic digs on your part.
Now this is what pisses me off, Leigh: what gives you a pass to act like an a$$hole when you want respect from other people? I did and said NOTHING to disrespect you and got bullsh1t in every single response you posted. All I had to do was state an opinion and, simply because it wasn’t the same as yours, all of a sudden I’m “assuming” and “telling you what to do”.
You’re hardly the poor aggrieved girl here, being set upon by big ol’ nasty trollish Thad.
So I’d say if you seriously mean “enough is enough”, then you should hold yourself to it. I have been treating you with way more respect than you’ve shown to me – or to any other person whom you disagree with.
Jasmin:
Sorry for misspelling your name. I went back and corrected it.
Given your blog content, I’m surprised you don’t get on Thad more for being the “know-it-all White person” (not a slam, just the most accurate description I can think of at the moment).
Abagond, seriously, take a look at what I wieghed in with above and tell me how it’s “know-it-all White person”. I’m white, I have an opinion and I stated it in polite fashion, without trying to force it down ANYONE’S throat.
I presume that this is now enough to get called a “know it all”? Disagreeing with Jasmin and Leigh?
On the subject of Thad and ethnic slurs, he showed two common white tendencies, as Macon D would put it:
1. “That happens to me too!” – belittling racism by comparing it to something that is not racist at all but which white people experience all the time. So what Leigh went through is pretty much dismissed as “kids being kids” and “people call me names too!”
2. “White Lie #5: As long as no one consciously INTENDS to be racist, that’s what really matters!” Beloved by the American Supreme Court and white people everywhere – since no one can truly know what is in their hearts and, even better, it allows them to avoid taking responsibility for the consequences of their actions. Those who are upset by their actions are painted as being oversensitive, blowing things out of proportion, making a big deal out of nothing. As Leigh was.
So, for example, I can call Thad’s wife a “bitch” and he would not mind. You know, so long as I did not mean anything bad by it. And besides, everyone gets called names, so what is the big deal?
Maybe Thad should work for BP:
1. Oil spills happen all the time. This is nothing compared to what Shell does in Nigeria!
2. We did not MEAN to destroy all life in the Gulf of Mexico! So stop your whining!
But to Thad’s credit he did say Alan should lay off of the word if Leigh finds it offensive. So at least he had that much sense – even though it went against his own reasoning.
KeyserSoe:
Isn’t that a bit selfish to tell a country with less than 2 percent people of African descent to write stories for blacks? How many movies portray Asian people in Tyler Perry movies ? I can cosplay as a lot of anime and cartoon characters and I’m black. I’m thinking of dressing up like Talim this year. It’s not the Japanese responiblity to respresent you in a postive light, that’s your damn job. Then I guess I should be pissed that they never show Somaili actresses in Nollywood movies, huh.
OK, Abagond, but my question to you is “Is this a white tendency or a human tendency?”
Because it seems to me that it’s pretty human, when hearing about how someone got picked on in childhood because of their ethnicity and wants to claim that their experience was incomensurable, to say “It’s not as rare as you think it is.”
So is a white person reacts like a human being by saying “Yes, I’m sure it was bad, but that doesn’t mean nobody else has ever gone through anything similar”, you and Macon think this is racist.
To me, racist would be saying “Hey, that didn’t happen” or “Hey, that’s nothing.”
No, I don’t think Leigh’s experience of being picked on in childhood for her ethnicity is an incomensurable experience, completely unapproachable by white people because the same sort of thing has never happened to them. That’s an false assumption on Leigh’s and (apparently) your part. I grew up in a city where all sorts of white ethnicities were trashed all the time and where the KKK historically burnt crosses on CATHOLICS’ lawns. I respectfully disagree with Leigh and you. I don’t think either of you know as much about the varieties of white experience as you seem to think.
2. As for “As long as no one consciously INTENDS to be racist, that’s what really matters!”, I certainly DO agree that hate speech should be recognized as hate speech. What I don’t agree is that speech should be censored because people find it offensive. Period. That was my point, not that “it doesn’t matter”. If I thought it didn’t matter, I’d hardly say “I don’t think Alan should be using that term if it offends Leigh”, would I?
So, for example, I can call Thad’s wife a “bitch” and he would not mind.
I’ll pass your sentiments along to Ana Paula and that would be between you and her. However, no, I don’t think my “minding” is cause enough for censorship. I DO think it is cause for you to assume what you say as your opinion and to give an explanation for it. It seems to me that this is more in line with “taking responsability for the consequences for your actions” than dogmatic complaints that certain words are bad a needs must be censored.
As for “taking responsability for the consequences of your actions”, seeing as how I post under my given name and that you and Leigh don’t, I feel that you’re in no position to lecture me on accountability. It’s easy to call people bitches, Abagond, when you do it under an assumed name.
What pisses me off, however, is the two weights, two measures: a woman who demands respect and politeness, but isn’t willing to give it to anyone who she disagrees with. She can offend freely: what she can’t stand is being offended. In fact, to disagree with her is to offend, ipso facto.
But to Thad’s credit he did say Alan should lay off of the word if Leigh finds it offensive. So at least he had that much sense – even though it went against his own reasoning.
My reasoning has been REAL clear on this, in spite of your attempts to parody it. I DON’T think “Jap” is necessarily a racist term, depending on the context. Here in Brazil it isn’t and because I’m not a mighty know-it-all American like yourself, I’m not willing to presume that it is everywhere else and in every other context simply because Leigh says it is. But if someone finds it offensive IN THIS CONTEXT and you’re truly trying to dialogue with them, then you’re being a jerk if you continue to use it when you tell them to stop.
By the way, Abagond, just because you can make cute lists and refer to them as if they were dogma, doesn’t mean that the situations you apply them to are what you presume they are.
Abagond,
You forgot the “center-staging” (I think that’s what they call it)–Leigh, as the only person involved who offered experience at being called a “j*P”, is the one who decides it’s offensive (from personal experience, obviously). What I (or anyone else, but especially a White person) think is irrelevant, because in this conversation talking about an ethnic slur is a hypothetical, for Leigh, it obviously has been a reality.
I’m just surprised you would blog extensively on ways White folks fail in conversations on race and then allow said fail to happen repeatedly in your own space. But maybe time constraints (and a lack of comment sterilization, as Moi would put it) make that happen.
Thanks for fixing my name.
Thank you for completely missing the point and applying the Arab Trader Argument, Robin. I don’t think anyone’s demanding they write stories geared towards blacks. And though it would be nice for a change, I certainly don’t look towards any media to represent me, a black male, in a fair light. The matter is with the Japanese’s standards of ethnic and racial supremacy, they’ve adopted the Western standards as well. An Eastern, non-white country adopting Western standards of white supremacy that’s never been officially colonized is pretty disturbing to me. It’s pretty selfish to ask me to ignore all that and try and explain it all away just so you can live in your own world of denial, guilt-free and in harmony.
hmmm I always though the anime characters were white. They dont seen to have any asian features at all
Y’know, there’s a common thread in most of these posts and it’s called “find the dogma”.
You don’t have to actually engage with what anyone says: simply find a template to slip over their comments and then dismiss what they say.
If, for example, I have an opinion, it’s “center-staging”. If I ignore the discussion, it’s avoidance. If I respectfully disagree with Leigh, I’m “ignoring her experience”. If I agree with her, well that’s just me being clever and trying to get sympathy.
In short, there is NOTHING I could possibly say which doesn’t fit your little list in SOME respect, is there?
As for Leigh’s PAST experience, I made it quite obvious that I wasn’t denying it: I WAS wondering whether it was applicable to every situational use of the word.
Let’s presume that Alan’s not a troll, just a normal, clueless white guy. He uses “Jap”. Now, what you are saying, Jasmin, is that he’s a racist clown because of someone else having used that term to Leigh, half a world away and twenty years ago.
But I wonder what definition of racism this is, then? Any ethnic term used to insult a person is automatically racist? Or is it only the terms Leigh and you personally object to that are racist?
The matter is with the Japanese’s standards of ethnic and racial supremacy, they’ve adopted the Western standards as well. An Eastern, non-white country adopting Western standards of white supremacy that’s never been officially colonized is pretty disturbing to me.
Could it be, as Abagond pointed out, that they have their OWN racist standards?
Because it seems to me that you’re treading very close to another famous racist myth: “Those Japanese can only immitate; they can’t come up with anything on their own”.
Could it be, as Abagond pointed out, that they have their OWN racist standards?
Because it seems to me that you’re treading very close to another famous racist myth: “Those Japanese can only immitate; they can’t come up with anything on their own”.
I’m pretty sure I’ve pointed out numerous times that the Japanese have their OWN racist standards. But nobody’s been able to explain why Japanese people dye their hair blonde or get plastic surgery done to appear more “Western”, and how that applies to their own racist code, which usually tends to lighter SKIN, and not appearing more “Western”, even though I’m supposed to believe that the Japanese view themselves above and all everyone else.
And I knew the accusations were going to come flying sooner or later, but no, I’m not racist against the Japanese. What I am against is how people want to give them the benefit of doubt and claim they have their own racist standards(which they do), when evidence shows these people of color, even if they may not see themselves as such have been brainwashed under the concept of Western whiteness.
I have to say I’ve never heard of this talk about Japanese being imitators. Maybe in regards to discussing how racism in the context WWII, or how some people view American culture in Japan as a poor rip-off. But that’s not a stereotype that comes to mind for Japan or the Japanese people.
But I wonder what definition of racism this is, then? Any ethnic term used to insult a person is automatically racist? Or is it only the terms Leigh and you personally object to that are racist?
=
Because it seems to me that you’re treading very close to another famous RACIST myth: “Those Japanese can only immitate; they can’t come up with anything on their own”.
Hmmm!!
re m,
“In addition, by giving your one word of praise to the island by saying that the Japanese are “lucky to have a monoculture”, you denigrate multiracial societies.”
What is good about multi-racial societies? The fact that they contain distinct races, I would imagine. Now, if that is true, then one should oppose inter-racial marriage in those societies, right? Otherwise, over time, they will become mono-racial. Furthermore, how did distinct races come about in the first place? Through isolation, separation. So to sing the praises of multi-racial states is, in a sense, self-contradictory. The various races are not maintained nor “honored” my insisting on maximal mixing, which leads to the annihilation of those races.
@ Robert Gray
I’m not sure it’s quite that simple. The fact that there is intermarriage/interbreeding within a multi-ethnic society does not presuppose that the entire society will intermarry or interbreed. That is a red herring. Secondly, modern ethnicities/races, as they appear today, are not only the product of isolation, but also of integration and interbreeding.
Races themselves, as a concept, are not static conventions, to be honored, preserved, or protected, so much as they are a constantly evolving and ever-changing process of human evolution and definition.
Thad,
You lost me at “ignoring the discussion” = “avoidance”. This isn’t a classroom; no one’s taking attendance, and saying nothing definitely doesn’t equal “having no opinion” (plus I’d surmise no one particularly cares about anyone else’s opinion here anyway).
I think one thing you are missing is that effects matter more than “accuracy” in the context of the discussion. You seemed to be going down the path of cultural differences in word meaning earlier, but that doesn’t change the fact that you ended up supporting a troll (you even admitted he was such, while trying to avoid backtracking, so I don’t know why you are flipping yet again. I didn’t call Alan a troll, you did–like 10 years too late). Whether you are “right” about word meanings means little when you get to the bottom line: feeding the troll it’s gruel. It’s hard to make a case for being anti-ethnic slurs (or at least, show solidarity with the person who has experienced said ethnic slur) when your busy yanking out the dictionary. In this context, you have the privilege of making the discussion a “thought exercise”, while for Leigh (and others) the use of an ethnic slur is an all-too-common real-life experience. Mentioning such isn’t “oppression olympics” or having a chip on the shoulder, it’s more like saying, “Hey, you all are discussing my life here, which is not a tool for entertainment.”
J,
I just got this “image” of you doing an exaggerated “Hmmm!” and it cracked me up.
King,
“Secondly, modern ethnicities/races, as they appear today, are not only the product of isolation”
Yes, they are. All modern humans originated in Africa 50 to 100,000 years ago (whatever the current estimate is). The reason we can distinguish between Asians, Europeans, sub-Saharan Africans is because of genetic change in populations over tens of thousands of years, taking place in geographically isolated locations. If there had been no geographic barriers (oceans, deserts, sheer distance) then there would be no races. We would all belong to the same race.
“The fact that there is intermarriage/interbreeding within a multi-ethnic society does not presuppose that the entire society will intermarry or interbreed.”
Not all individuals have to intermarry. Over time, the races will blend together into a new population. This may take centuries, but it is inevitable. In any case, why wouldn’t this occur? Because of isolation within the multi-racial society.
“Races themselves, as a concept …”
By race I mean a genetically distinguishable human population. I don’t mean a “concept” or a social definition. Of course populations are not static; but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
“… are not static conventions, to be honored, preserved, or protected”
I disagree. This is a sort of Utopian ideal where no one (black, Asian, European, Native American) sees their ancestry as an essential part of their identity. This is an idea invented by white people. Non-whites, for the most part, completely ignore it.
Jasmin,
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!
It came very close to what I like to see here…. ‘tautology’
quote
re m,
“In addition, by giving your one word of praise to the island by saying that the Japanese are “lucky to have a monoculture”, you denigrate multiracial societies.” ”
Multicultural societies are failures
Thaddeus I am not clueless. perhaps Leigh is American of Japanese descent, i don’t know. If so, she probably learned “Jap” was offensive from a PC professor with a life dedicated to attacking white people, as is typical here
I suspect the chance to go to University to better onesself has been wasted on some here.
There is a couple of poor man’s Naomi Wolfs here
“Yes, they are. All modern humans originated in Africa 50 to 100,000 years ago”
Half of the so-called ethnicities that we know today are the end product of the amalgamation of smaller clans, tribes and kingdoms, commingling to create “new” larger ethic identities over time. Isolation played a role, but so did integration. To suppose that geographic isolation was a only influence on the history of modern ethnicities is shortsighted and unwarranted.
“The reason we can distinguish between Asians, Europeans, sub-Saharan Africans is because of genetic change in populations over tens of thousands of years, taking place in geographically isolated locations.”
And what happened to the thousands of smaller ethnic groups, micro-cultures, and peoples, who were conflated into those large and genetically diverse super-categories that you mention above? What is the reason that we can we can no longer distinguish or even remember them? It’s called “integration,” which is the flip side of the race making coin.
“If there had been no geographic barriers (oceans, deserts, sheer distance) then there would be no races.”
And what are you then, the god of destiny and history? You KNOW that without geographic barriers there would be no ethnicities? What about all of the other non-geographic reasons that people segregate? How about politics and religion and vocation and education? I could list quite a few ways that people groups might coalesce and then sort themselves without the need of physical barriers.
“Not all individuals have to intermarry. Over time, the races will blend together into a new population. This may take centuries, but it is inevitable.”
You presume too much upon your own prognosticative powers. In truth, you have no grasp of how history might have been effected by any number of seminal events, movements, or ideas. No one does. To declare with certainty your knowledge of such an inevitability is… well, interesting.
“Of course populations are not static; but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist.”
It does mean that you’re defining a process rather than and end. Populations, cultures, and ethnicities are constantly changing. Every day there are things being left behind, and new things being adopted. Exactly which parts of an ethnicity are sacred?
I disagree. This is a sort of Utopian ideal where no one (black, Asian, European, Native American)
Really? I notice you don’t consider Native Americans to be Asian… How long after they journeyed over the the Bering land bridge did it take before they changes their ethnicity?
The “Out of Africa theory” is still just a theory
Robert spoke sense about race. Japan in fact didn’t encounter white people until Perry tried to kick it’s door in and force trade on them
Hi King quoting you
” It does mean that you’re defining a process rather than and end. Populations, cultures, and ethnicities are constantly changing. Every day there are things being left behind, and new things being adopted. Exactly which parts of an ethnicity are sacred? ”
rather than an end. Perhaps a means to an end. Perhaps you could elucidate? Which part of ethnicity are scared. Ask Asian nations, ask the Greeks. Ask the British re the Monarchy that reflects history and race. Ask the Aghans
KeyerSoze,
I don’t think I explained myself clearly, but I was thinking more of the artist fan of the style. It is not just that they would specifically make Anime characters culturally black or any other culture. It would be an experiment with the form, from my experience to tell the story they wanted.
To an artist it is not necessary to explore the social or personal traits of another artist for them to appreciate or understand their art.
that’s what I’ve been trying to say. Perhaps it’s just the artist’s style and nothing should be read into it
King,
“What about all of the other non-geographic reasons that people segregate? How about politics and religion and vocation and education?”
I am talking about the prehistory of man when there was no politics, religion, vocations, or education as we know them. There were only small hunter-gather bands roaming the earth.
I didn’t mean to say that, had humans stayed in Africa, there would be no diversity in language, culture, etc. There is a lot of diversity in Africa, of course. But again, to have diversity in language and genetics, there must be separation and isolation.
Anyone else notice how this thread has descended into attacks on immigration and multiculturalism?
I wonder who caused that to happen?
*rolls eyes*
@ Alan B’Stard
Which Greeks should I ask? Agamemnon and Alexander or Karolos Papoulias? Which Asians should I ask? The Japanese Samurai or the Tokyo Salaryman? Which British should I ask? Frances Drake and Lord Wellington, or Tony Blair?
The illusion of a single, sacred, and continuous, culture does little in the face of the reality of constant change.
Anyone else notice how this thread has descended into attacks on immigration and multiculturalism?
good point
*rolls eyes*
While the nature of race is part of this topic, comments that get too far off topic will be deleted.
Alan:
The Americans were not the first whites in Japan – the Portuguese in the 1500s were.
” Anyone else notice how this thread has descended into attacks on immigration and multiculturalism? ”
I didn’t start it. Anyway multiculturalism should be attacked. It’s a failed delusional attempt to destroy the host cultures of tolerant races
After all, it’s only the tolerant races that put up with the intolerable, namely, multiculturalism
Multiculturalism is not on topic here. Any further comments on it will be deleted.
Keysersoze sez:
And I knew the accusations were going to come flying sooner or later, but no, I’m not racist against the Japanese. What I am against is how people want to give them the benefit of doubt and claim they have their own racist standards(which they do), when evidence shows these people of color, even if they may not see themselves as such have been brainwashed under the concept of Western whiteness.
First off, I’m not accusing you. I AM saying that the “imitative Japanese” is indeed a racist meme in the west, so you should think twice before deploying something very much like it.
After recently concluding Nell Painter’s excellent book on whiteness, I am not convinced that being brainwashed by European standards of whiteness and having a penchant for lighter skin are NECESSARILY the same things. They may be. They may not be. Without knowing much more about a foreign culture whose language I don’t speak and whose history I know little of, I wouldn’t want to make a judgement.
I personally feel that Americans of all colors are far too quick to judge other cultures without doing their homework, so unless you’re a Japan scholar of some sort, Keysersore, and can give me some good references on why this is white supremacist brainwashing, I choose to remain skeptical.
As for not ever having heard of the “immitative Japanese” racist meme… I find that as hard to believe as Alan’s claim that he’s never heard of “Jap” being offensive or certain other poster’s claims that they’ve never heard “a**h0le” used as a term of endearment.
@Robert Gray
Furthermore, how did distinct races come about in the first place? Through isolation, separation.
Quite the opposite, in fact.
Races began to be perceived precisely due to contact and mixing. They began to be constructed in the 17th century in the context of colonizing the Americas in an attempt to keep certain classes of people apart because said classes weren’t doing on their own.
No human races are “annihilated” because no human races exist as biological constructs. Races are “built” and “deconstructed” according to political and historical projects. Thus the only way for a race to become “obsolete” is for everyone in it and around it to suddenly stop perceiving it. That sort of thing doesn’t occur often, even in cases (such as the Native Americans or the Gypsies) where the biological make up of said “race” has changed radically over time.
The reason we can distinguish between Asians, Europeans, sub-Saharan Africans is because of genetic change in populations over tens of thousands of years, taking place in geographically isolated locations.
Demonstratably untrue. Genetic clines do not switch abruptly from one “race” to another in homogenous fashion. They are multiple and gradually shift between one population and another. Your “Asian” thus takes in hugely genetically diverse populations: everything from Turks, to Indians, to Indonesians, to Polysnesians, to Chinese and Japanese. That’s not a “race”, Robert: that’s a general geographic category.
The only places where there was a by-God geographic barrier to genetic mixing was in the Americas and Australia and in both cases, humanity wasn’t left alone long enough to become significantly genetically diverse. You’d have a hard time today telling certain Native American and Siberian or Mongolian groups apart, Robert, going on vision alone.
By race I mean a genetically distinguishable human population.
That’s not an acceptable biological definition of “race”, which is synonymous with “subspecies”. A population is not a race, Robert. To be a race, according to biology, the population has to have more genetic homogeniety among its members than it does between its members and the rest of the species. That doesn’t happen in humans until you’re talking about populations on the level of “seriously in-bred rural village”.
I disagree. This is a sort of Utopian ideal where no one (black, Asian, European, Native American) sees their ancestry as an essential part of their identity. This is an idea invented by white people. Non-whites, for the most part, completely ignore it.
Actually, it’s the opposite. None of the “races” you mention are genetically HOMOGENOUS enough to be considered subspecies. Biological races don’t exist among humans not because we’re all alike: races don’t exist because we are far too DIFFERENT. Any division like “Asian” has the same degree of biological difference AMONG its members as said members have with the rest of the human race. There is thus no “there” there.
Now, obviously, races are incredibly important as socio-historical and political constructs. So saying “race doesn’t exist in human biology” is manifestly NOT the same thing as saying “we’re all the same and should have the same essential identities”. It simply and correctly understand that identities are created by history and politics, NOT by your biology. They are man made, not made by God or Mother Nature.
Thaddeus
“No human races are “annihilated” because no human races exist as biological constructs”
Of course it biological. Without it, there would be know races
national borders were sometimes, but not exclusively set along the lines of race
KeyserSoze may be onto something. I remember reading that some Japanese welcomed the arrival of McDonalds to their country because they thought the beef-based diet would make them more like white Americans.
Alan sez…
Multicultural societies are failures.
Citation needed.
Thaddeus I am not clueless.
Perish the thought! I think that you are a very subtle troll. I think you’re here to ring peoples’ bells for lulz. I do not think you are arguing in good faith. All of that presumes that you aren’t clueless.
perhaps Leigh is American of Japanese descent, i don’t know. If so, she probably learned “Jap” was offensive from a PC professor with a life dedicated to attacking white people, as is typical here
I am not Leigh’s biggest fan. I think she’s a hypocrite and that she’s unwilling to give other people the respect she herself demands. That said and absent evidence to the contrary, there’s no reason to presume that she’s anything other than what she says – presuming that your purpose here is to really discuss things and not troll.
Now, if we take Leigh at her word, there is no logical reason at all to presume that she hasn’t had negative run ins with the “J word” in the past. Again, unless given a very good reason otherwise, I presume people are being more-or-less honest about their lives. Yes, anti-Asian racism does exist in the U.S. and kids will use stuff like that mercilessly. My only quibble with Leigh, regarding you, was that she shouldn’t NECESSARILY presume that you’re using the term in the same sense as her old tormentors. But it’s pretty clear that that’s not the case. You are indeed using the term in that sense and you’re doing it for the lulz.
Lighter skin has been desirable in East Asia long before whites showed up. It is why the Chinese invented the umbrella – not to keep off the rain but the sun. Light skin was considered more beautiful because only the well-to-do did not have to work outside in the sun all day. You saw that sort of thing even in White America in the 1800s when most whites were still farmers.
Lighter skin is also desirable in India, again long before Europeans showed up. In that case lighter-skinned people from the north took over India and set up the caste system, putting themselves at the top and the darker-skinned natives at the bottom.
In Africa and the Diaspora, however, lighter skin being desirable does in fact come from the effects of white rule and internalized racism.
American power may strengthen the light-skin-is-good thing in Japan but it did not create it.
A far stronger case of White American influence can be made for eyelid surgery, which did not become common in Japan till the 1950s.
Lighter skin was important in Europe, for the same reason it was important in East Asia. It was undesirable to have a tan because it meant you were poor and working at the field. Many women used whitening cremes with dangerous ingredients to make their skin lighter. So it had nothing to do with blacks, at the beginning.
It is different today. Racism is still alive but whites don’t like their light skin anymore, and most of them want to tan.
Thaddeus, I am not a troll. I merely will challenge modern shibbeliths of the left, such as the multi cult, such as Israel can’t be criticized, or even critical of the right, such as the attack on Iraq was justified, and G W Bush and the Neocons are nice guys, and again Israel can’t be criticised
This is one lemming that won’t accept the rantings of white haters, 60s feminists, like Abzug, or child molesters like Alan Ginsburg, or misfits like Timothy Leary
I’m a guy who’ll look jackson Pollock in the eye and tell him he couldn’t paint to save himself
The “Out of Africa theory” is still just a theory
All science is “still just a theory”. Science never proves anything absolutely. But the “Out of Africa” hypothesis is very, very well supported. Much better than any other hypothesis.
In fact, the only big argument currently being had by mainstream scientists is whether this happened in one or multiple waves.
That’s it.
And, at the bequest of our gracious host, that’s the last I’m going to say on anything that’s at least not nominally on topic.
@FG
KeyserSoze may be onto something. I remember reading that some Japanese welcomed the arrival of McDonalds to their country because they thought the beef-based diet would make them more like white Americans.
Recall that they had recently had their asses pwned in a major war with the Yanks. “Becoming more like the Americans” doesn’t necessarily mean they wanted to be white.
Abagond
” n Africa, the West Indies and Black America, however, lighter skin being desirable does in fact come from the effects of white rule and internalized racism. ”
What rubbish! For centuris, African women have used various devices to lighten their skin to make them desirable to the males of their tribe. Black African males prefer that. This may be why, taken further, Black males, including US blacks males lust after whilte women.
Indeed, your header photo above appears to reflect this, yet you still blame the whites for everything
Ladies & gentlemen, I believe we have found the new No_Slappz.
Abagond, feel free to delete this after a time. If we had some sort of PM function, this would be a PM to Alan.
Alan, if you are serious about challenging dogmas, then at least educate yourself. “The world is what I say it is and anyone who disagrees is a PC commie egg head” is about the biggest shiboleth going these days. Mouthing it isn’t radical or edgy. It is, in fact, the most sheep- or lemming-like thing one can do these days.
You really want to challenge ideas? That takes some personal preparation and not a wiki education, friend.
But then again, we know that you’re not here to “challenge” jack: you’re just here to make waves and cause some lulz. Which, given the high-quantity of knee-jerkers who post here, is a bit like shooting fish in a barrel with a 12 gage.
I wonder if any past or present society can be found with a preference for darker skin.
@ Alan B’Standard M P,
certainly, sir, there are certain marginal ‘tribes’ in Africa which do as you claim above but – even today, the vast majority of African women are perfectly contented in their own skin. However, this is NOT to say that a significant minority of Africans at home or in the Caribbean and America have not been influenced by the notion that a fair skin = beauty as a direct result of slavery and colonialism.
They have, Mr B’Stard, and the fact you do not know or accept this does not alter this fact.
Thanks
Menelik Charles
London England
I just made a statement. i can nothing else over the net, can I
I am here to express and opinion, and if others don’t like it, that’s a matter for them
Slavery and colonisation did not invent black women lightening skin. I suppose they consider it a form of makeup it was around well before that. Remember too, it was the black that went out to catch and enslave blacks to sell them to the slavers
FG said:
I wonder if any past or present society can be found with a preference for darker skin.
Menelik replies:
the presence of POC in predominantly white societies will ensure that racial discrimination, white privilege etc will remain for the time being. However, do not let all that blind you to the fairly obvious FACT that these very white societies have an overwhelming preference for dark skin!
Indeed, in white societies, remaining white all-year-round is frowned upon, and (as you know) whites seek to conceal their pale skins by any means necessary…even to the point of contracting skin cancer.
Am I right?
Menelik Charles
London England
“the presence of POC in predominantly white societies will ensure that racial discrimination, white privilege etc will remain for the time being. However, do not let all that blind you to the fairly obvious FACT that these very white societies have an overwhelming preference for dark skin!
Indeed, in white societies, remaining white all-year-round is frowned upon, and (as you know) whites seek to conceal their pale skins by any means necessary…even to the point of contracting skin cancer.”
There is some truth to this. Alot of the white girls spend time in these scary contraptions that emit blue radiation of some sort in order to get darker:
http://www.twolia.com/blogs/daily-beauty-break/files/2009/08/tanning_bed_3.jpg
Anyone who wants to talk more about skin lightening (or darkening) other than how it relates to the Japanese can go here:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/10/22/skin-lightening/
Those who feel the sudden, uncontrollable urge to point out that black Africans took part in the slave trade can go here:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/05/21/the-transatlantic-slave-trade/
And the trolls, Abagond? Where can they go?
Because I spy with my eye a serious drapto presence here.
“And the trolls, Abagond? Where can they go?”
I have a suggestion…
http://climateprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/hell_070706_ms.jpg
@ King,
Nicely stated.
*nods in gratitude*
@ Ankhesen and King:
boom, tish!
you guys make a great comedy double act
Perhaps this will do the trick:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2075/3528861357_8efbcbfc7e_o.jpg
@Ankhesen Mié:
You should definitely do a write-up of said drapto(s) in your blog.
OT: but whatever happened to no slappz? He loved to post here.
He was banned some time ago.
Don’t worry Camille. Someone else has quickly sprung up to fill the void left by his absence.
There is a Japanese anime called ‘Afro Samurai” written by
Takashi Okazaki. It features a black main character. ‘Afro Samurai’:
http://www.afrosamurai.com/index2.cfm
@Alan B’Stard M P
As Abagond made reference to:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/10/22/skin-lightening/
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/05/21/the-transatlantic-slave-trade/
There is also this post which I believe you are resorting to:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/10/03/the-arab-trader-argument/
Mira’s got it spot on.
In all humans, exposure to sun darkens the skin.
After agriculture was invented, almost every human society developed classes and those who labored in the fields were almost universally low down on the totem pole.
Lighter skin thus almost universally (at least in agricultural and state-based societies) very quickly became associated with the elite and liesure class.
There is thus no reason to presume that a cultural preference for lighter skin needs must mean brainwashing by white supremacy.
That said, I very much doubt that any culture today hasn’t been affected by white supremacy at some level. What I think, then, is that white supremacy has tended to reinforce an already existing class bias towards lighter skin in most cultures.
quote Thaddeus
” There is thus no reason to presume that a cultural preference for lighter skin needs must mean brainwashing by white supremacy.”
Exactly. Some here would blame whites for the next rainfall
I really wouldn’t know why women do this. Women have a certain gullibility when it comes to beauty. They buy God only knows whatto look young ^ beautiful. many of them don’t seem to realise they look great as they are
They try and look good, which is great, but they buy any crap advertised in a magazine
I’m still at a loss as to why those on here claim the Anime figures have been whitened. Japanese are faily light skinned any compared to other Asians
Alan B’Stard said:
Some here would blame whites for the next rainfall
Menelik replied:
and some people will acknowledge the events of history, and seek to place them in their proper context without resorting to baiting whites. Myself, for example.
Menelik Charles
London England
Good. You and I don’t bait whites, nor anyone i hope
Alan, here’s the deal…
When you tell someone who’s had RL experience with racial prejudice that they “only think Jap is a racist term because a PC professor told them it was”, you are indeed baiting and that is quite obvious.
Furthermore (and this might not be so obvious), you’re letting your slip show in another way: you’re making a ’round about admission that you’ve never set foot in a university classroom.
As a professor whom you’d probably call “liberal and PC” (because we both know there are only two positions under the sun, right? Liberal and conservative?), let me tell you that I WISH I had the ability to influence students to the degree you presume.
Most university prof types are interested in one thing and one thing only: getting students to think for themselves and giving them the tools to do so. We LOVE fiesty, combative classes which want to discuss everything and turn things over in their heads.
Unfortunately, 95% of the 19 year olds I see in the classroom have made up their minds about race LONG before they put a foot in the door. As my students are mostly Brazilian, that means they have a taboo about even discussing the subject.
On the occasions that I’ve taught anglo students, however, I’ve noticed that they, too, come to class with their minds already made up. They’ve all absorbed the color-appropriate dogmas about race long before they reach me and if I can get one or two students in every class to at least CONSIDER the history and sociology of race, I consider that to be a good semester.
The black and brown students typically have a pop understanding of race which comes from the few corners of the mediasphere that aren’t colonized by white supremacy. Most of them are far too willing to classify anything that personally offends them as “racism” and they tend to believe in dogmas such as “people of color have a common enemy and that thus makes us all allies” or “what race mixing has occurred in the U.S. occurred due to rape in slavery times”. But then again, they are in a minority position in a society that still mostly believes in white supremacy, so being prickly and on the defensive is understandable, as is the “it’s us versus them” syndrome.
But white kids are no better and usually far worse. The ones from what you’d probably call “liberal” households have formally renounced white supremacy, but feel they have no reason to really look at racism because “can’t we all just be friends”? And the ones who think that they are “edgy” and “anti-dogmatic” because they listen to Fox News – like yourself, apparently – think this whole race thing is some great big prank we ultra-powerful lefty social scientists have pulled on society (because, you know, lefty social scientists have an enormous ammount of power in the capitalist, globalized world).
If they are Americans, almost all of these kids will have absolutely no problem at all projecting their T.V.-honed understanding of the world on peoples whom they often can’t even locate on a map.
The group both blacks and whites just LOVE to talk about is “Asians” and both blacks and whites will make the absolutely silly-ass statement that this group is a “race” – nevermind the fact that “Asian” encompasses everything from Turkey on over to Polynesia. They’ll talk unabashedly about half the Earth as if it were one homogenous mass of people sharing the same culture and biology. Just a vast, presumably “yellow” and undifferentiated sea of “Asians” stretching from Istanbul to Easter Island.
What a professor does in this situation is try to inform these kids that “Asia” is a damned big place and no, having watched The Karate Kid or having taken 6 months of Tae Kwon Do lessons does not entitle one to make blanket statements about it. The peoples there have incredibly complex cultures and histories and, if we’re going to say anything useful about them, we have to minimally do some reading about them first.
At that point, white guys like you usually start criticizing professors like me for being “PC lefties”. After all, why would a professor actually tell you you need to READ about a culture if you want to understand it? Who is he to push his ideology down your throat? This “informed opinion” stuff is some sort of commie brainwashing plot.
The white and brown kids generally start accusing us of being “liberal racists”, because, after all, they already “know all we need to know about racism from living our lives, man. Who’s this white jerk to tell us we need to learn more about it?”
Kids don’t go to univeristy to learn, Alan. Not when it comes to race, they don’t. Most of them, presuming that they’re FORCED into a social sciences classroom by the school, go to have their prejudices confirmed.
So the idea that somehow us überpowerful social science lefty PC professors are brainwashing the likes of Leigh into perceiving racism is pure, unadulterated USDA-grade bullsh#$. If Leigh would ever sit through a class of mine, she’d probably walk out halfway through because I don’t present the material the way she thinks it should be presented. And guys like YOU wouldn’t even be caught dead in a classroom like mine.
But both you and Leigh share one thing in common: what you fear more than anything else in this sphere of human activity is an open and frank discussion of race where you’d actually have to base your opinions on something other than personal experience or a pop-cultural education.
This is why I’m enjoying Nell Painter’s book so much. Simply by taking the time to research and document and put down on paper what we’ve known for some time about whiteness (i.e. that it’s invented and not biological), she pisses everyone off. But because her scholarship is impeccable and because she refrains from politics, guys like you can’t accuse her of “doctoring” the historical record to make whites look bad. And because she’s balck and a woman, people like Leigh and J can’t easily apply the ad hominem attack that she’s simply a tool of the racist establishment.
People should seriously read Painter’s description of what whiteness is before they start making these blanket statements about it and – worse – trying to yank these statements around to cover Japan.
Oh, and btw, one of the reasons that I enjoy Abagond’s blog in spite of our frequent disagreements is that he does his level best to produce a space where people can indeed discuss race based on something other than easily chewed and swallowed dogmas. And he’s generally a fair moderator, to boot, even to people like myself who’s opinions piss him off.
And THAT, Alan, is the reason why you’re being a hell of a lot less iconoclastic than you think when you come on here and give us copypasta about how there’s no Japanese criminals or how “Jap” could never be seen as a racist term.
Here, we’ve got one of the very few places on the ‘net where non-dogmatic views about race are allowed to exist in public. And you’re pissing all over this for the sake of some lulz.
No, Alan, I don’t think you are very interested in a real discussion at all.
@ Eurasian Sensation, Herneith, & leigh204
Behold the Trio of Devil’s Advocates. And Leigh…I see you. I see you, girl.
LOL *shakes head*
@ camille & leigh204
Banned, eh? No wonder he tried to migrate on over to my place.
In the meantime, methinks he may have simply reincarnated…but I’m just sayin’….
Thad,
any time you want to learn something about rae. No problem. We can have a discussion if you wish. Perhaps we can start with the maori violence gene?
Ankhesen Mié, who said I tried to migrate to your site. If i made a comment there. So what. hardly a migration away from here
Alan,
[In reference to black male preference for lighter females]“Indeed, your header photo above appears to reflect this, yet you still blame the whites for everything”
You mean Bre Scullark? She’s not what most people would consider “light”; the lighting in that photo is very bright. Here she is under regular lighting:
http://kissbre.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/19041_1394212374031_1193827910_31202222_2772911_n-300×225.jpg
Thad,
“That said, I very much doubt that any culture today hasn’t been affected by white supremacy at some level. What I think, then, is that white supremacy has tended to reinforce an already existing class bias towards lighter skin in most cultures.”
I agree with this in regards to some Asian cultures. Some of he preference comes from perceived class attributions, but it seems to have been exacerbated by white supremacy. Certainly, the popularity of nose jobs (and of a specific type — to build up the nose bridge) and eyelid surgery can’t be attributed to class distinctions.
Ankhesen,
A true troll never dies–they’re like cockroaches.
No Natasha i wasn’t referring to Bre. I was referring the the artwork strip at the very top
@Ankhesen Mié
*smiles*
I knew you would.
Ankhesen Mié, who said I tried to migrate to your site. If i made a comment there. So what. hardly a migration away from here
I knew it.
*looks at Leigh*
@ Jasmin
Ankhesen,
A true troll never dies–they’re like cockroaches.
Indeed…see my previous comment.
@Ankhesen Mié:
*nodding head in approval*
Alan, go read a book instead of a website for a change and then go talk. Until then… If I want discussions with trolls I can always go over to 4chan.
The none-race-baiting of Alan B’Stard M P:
1) Any time you want to learn something about race, no problem. We can have a discussion if you wish. Perhaps we can start with the Maori violence gene?
2) For centuris, African women have… lightened their skin to make them desirable … Black African males prefer that. This may be why…US blacks males lust after whilte women.
3) Take a trip out here (Australia) thad and you see for yourself, the term ‘japs’ is not offensive.
4) Multiculturalism should be attacked. It is a failed, delusional attempt to destroy the host cultures of tolerant (white) races.
5) The term “japs” is acceptable and I am asking you to supply sources as to why it isn’t. Why don’t you approach the japs about their racism?
Alan B’Stard M P to Menelik:
You and I don’t bait whites, or anyone I hope!
Menelik replied:
this is NOT entirely true, is it Alan?
Menelik Charles
London England
Pursuant to my own comments:
“On a different level, I wonder to what extent how many do or as they case may be do not see the ‘default human being’ withn the media, and consequently its impact psychologically??
Hmmm!!!”
I am reminded off this story about the ‘default human being’
Microsoft Apologises Over Race-swap Gaffe
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/aug/26/microsoft-race-gaffe
@ Thad:
While reading your couple of lengthy comments directed at Alan, my thoughts were “this is quite interesting, it’s just a shame that Alan won’t actually bother reading any of it properly.”
Unfortunately I seem to have judged correctly.
Thad
If you are referring to what Charles posted, he posted my quotes. Why would I read anything I posted. If Charles has a point re his email, let him make it I’m here
Charles quotes me but i don’t know what he’s trying to say. Perhaps he could enlighten us all, by explaining
apologies Menelik. I though Charles was your first name
@ES, well, I write more often than not to put my own thoughts in order. If people read them, cool. If not, well, at least they helped me think.
Glad you took the time to read it, though.
Alan,
“No Natasha i wasn’t referring to Bre. I was referring the the artwork strip at the very top”
Oh, I see, the Jazmine character? I think abagond was using her as an example (of how cartoon artists depict ethnicities), rather than expressing a preference.
It’s so funny how you guys are trying so hard to have a debate with an unabashed white supremacist like Alan. He’s a racist, a xenophobe… just look at his fucking website! He tries to crouch his racism and xenophobia as resistance to political correctness, but everybody open your fucking eyes and smell the white, racist mess here. There’s no intelligent conversation to be had here, just a board hijacked by white power trolls.
Hi! I generally lurk here and I must say I have found your website very intriguing; It has made me think to say the least.
Anyhoo, I’ve found a clip to further illustrate the fact that anime characters are characteristically *not* white.
They were an imperial power in the past. Thus avoiding conceptions with China and other Asians as well as other colours such as black was a mistomeaner.
Welcome DeePixie,
Thanks that was an interesting youtube link.
Makes sense, but I don’t see why everyone whines about white being a ‘default’. Something has to be the default, that’s how people’s brains work. Nobody wants to see the sign on the ladies’ room and think “Wow, I wonder if it’s white or black”. White IS the default for a lot of people. If the Japanese think of it differently, fine – that makes sense for them. However, if someone draws a character with blonde hair and blue eyes – or even only one of those – the majority of the world is NOT going to assume that character is Japanese.
Great find on the video DeePixie.
Christy Andersen, you should have a look at the video above.
Christy, white is not the default for most of the world.
The world is less than a fourth white.
Even if you count ALL of Europe, North America and South America as “white” that only comes to 24.2% of the world’s population. You would need another 55 million whites outside of those three continents to come to 25.0% – but there are not enough in Oceania and southern Africa to make up the difference.
The % of the world population that lives outside of Africa and Asia:
1750 23.1
1850 27.1
1950 35.6
2050 21.0
2150 19.3
World population will level off by 2150, so in the long term mankind will be less than 20% white.
From memory I thought it was 8% of the world population – and that is now…
http://stewartsynopsis.com/8percentexit.htm
And perhaps you may want to write a topic on this same matter that can be tied to
The Rising Tide of Color
Against White World-Supremacy
by
Lothrop Stoddard, A.M., Ph.D. (Harvard)
and preface introduction by Madison Grant
http://www.churchoftrueisrael.com/stoddard/
That video was really good and made such sense, now I need to download that song, I found myself grooving to it.
@ Christy
Who the hell is “a lot of people?”
Shouldn’t Asians be the “default”, since they make up 60% of the world’s population?
DeePixie’s video link is, for me, the single best comment for this whole thread. Thanks. It made the issue come alive for me! I have a refreshed perspective.
The person who put the video together made a terrific and powerful creation!
ironically, the middle girl in your picture actually is probably white: she’s a European mythological figure (a female-for-some-reason King Arthur)…
Very late to the party – came here via Restructure! Reading the post and the comments have been very interesting/amusing, my being a Japanese and all.
On topic: The large eyes can also attributed to younger-is-better mentality(which, I believe is not specific to Japanese culture), especially for female characters. Larger eyes that take up a certain percentage of the face makes the person look “younger.” To take your example, Astro Boy was drawn with large eyes because he was a robot created in the image of a young boy-child (about 6 yrs of age, if I remember correctly). Since most anime is aimed towards a young audience in Japan, it makes sense to draw the characters resembling the age-group of the audience. Other anime aimed towards adult audiences, well, this is where it intersects with misogyny in the sense that, youthful looks = virginal = submissiveness = *include any number of “feminine” attributes here* = increased desirability, especially for female characters.
Difference in hair color not found in nature (such as pink or green or purple) is, as someone mentioned upthread, for identifying difference in characters, but also has cultural implications that associate certain colors with personalities and/or characteristics that may or may not be uniquely Asian. For example, the color purple have had associations with the Japanese royal family, so using that color for a character for a story that is set in Meiji-era might signify a royal heritage. Orange is a color associated with a perky, bubbly personality, so it may be used as a hair to signify such a person.
I would say that for all anime whose initial intended audience is/was the Japanese, the “default human” would be Japanese, unless noted otherwise, regardless of the skin/hair color.
Off Topic/possible troll bait: Yes, the Japanese government has xenophobic tendencies, but Japanese people is hardly monolithic. Japan as a nation is comprised of Korean, Chinese, Ainu, Ryukuu and other ethnic groups. Yes, minority groups are subject to still many unfair laws and restrictions, but things are slowly a-changing and more people are working towards it.
Also, yes, Japanese people have worshipped the emperor in the past, but just as not all Christians are Fundamentalists or Catholics, not all Japanese are hive-minded.
Finally, J** IS a racist slur, whether you’re Australian or USian. I’ve lived for many years in both countries, and unless the person using it was a racist jerk, I rarely came across that word.
Also late to the party.
Wow, the ethnocentrism in this thread is obnoxious. Let me break it down. Have any of you read a single academic journal article on anime? And no random webpages do not count. When Japanese people write about anime and character design THEY say the characters are Japanese, and think it’s laughable/ridiculous when Anglo people assume otherwise. It doesn’t matter how anyone else reads the character or what anecdotal evidence they have, or unchallenged ideas about how the Japanese supposedly worshiping whiteness. It is much more complicated than that. Japanese eyes don’t come in just one type or shape, have you seen the indigenous Aino population? Did you even know they existed? Also, people like to customize their appearances as part of self-expression. When you have darker hair the options are going to tend to going lighter. My sister dyes her hair black, does that mean she is imitating another race? No it means that she likes her hair like that.
Gangaru, Manbu and other similar styles are both imitations and PARODIES of the stereotypical California girl style. This is not a popular look, in fact it has been widely disparaged in the Japanese media who portrays such girls as “dirty” or “loose.” That hardly seems like admiration.
Of course Jap is an ethnic slur! Two seconds on google could confirm this. The fact that a troll was allowed to continue to argue otherwise… well I don’t moderate this blog.
Educate yourselves. Did any of you doubters read the Matthew Thorn link? He is a recognized academic authority on Japanese popular culture, I have cited him in several papers. Also you could read “Mechademia”, the translated version of “Otaku by Azuma, or Lamarre’s “The Anime Machine.” Or you could even just plug the word anime into google scholar. This isn’t even debatable.
Oh my god! This is hilarious!
Alan B-Stard sez of Australia:
“For that person that said i was brought up in an all white neighbourhood, Australia then was all white and all Anglo, but we listened and surcumbed to the New York and Washington trash and brought in immigrants, many of whom are criminal trash and none needed, regardless of how decent as individuals they were”
Where do i even begin?
Oh the Irony… a white man referring to a country of black men as his own, simply because his white ancestors needed a place to put actual criminal scum, so they displaced the black men who actually had rights to it, only to build a friggin penal colony. A jail country! the brit criminals displaced the black men so well in fact he refers to australia as having been an all white country…. and NOW as a descendant of the penalized criminal trash of britain, living in a black mans country… he has the nerve to complain about ‘foreign criminal trash’
I could not even make up a better example of delusional racism. No matter how hard i tried. Thanks Alan B-stard… I will be laughing at you…. erm maybe that was mean… what you said for weeks. Do not EVER try and pretend you are just rebelling against PC liberals and wrongs done by immigration. Even the staunchest conservative should be able to see the glaring contradictions in your statement above.
[...] Why do the Japanese draw themselves as white? « Abagond As it turns out, that is an American opinion, not a Japanese one. The Japanese see anime characters as being Japanese. It is Americans who think they are white. (tags: whiteness anime japan cartoons) [...]
I don’t know I have seen a decent amount of anime, and they also tend to draw themselves with blue hair, blue skin, and as robots too….
People tend to associate fictional characters with their own cultural/racial background unless clearly stated otherwise. Period.
[...] Ms. Queenly Why do the Japanese draw themselves as white? You see that especially in manga and anime. As it turns out, that is an American opinion, not a Japanese one. The Japanese see anime characters as being Japanese. It is Americans who think they are white. Why? Because to them white is the Default Human Being. If I draw a stick figure, most Americans will assume that it is a white man. Because to them that is the Default Human Being. For them to think … Read More [...]
it’s 300 years ago.
http://livedoor.r.blogimg.jp/hamusoku/imgs/6/2/6255e053.jpg
and it’s last year’s one.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61lMDtClJHL._SL560_.jpg
Congrats @ the socimages cross-post!
Thanks and thanks for the heads up!
on the race-idenity study : asians (japanese) identify anime characters as asians (japanese) and whites identify as whites; the numbers would fall apart if done with a non-japanese population and an anime which included chinese character(s), w/ asian “markers” as anime always do, alongside the other characters. under the same criteria of the japanese “perception,” a white man in a kimono or speaks japanese is japanese has to be the most banal thing ever — so the japanese “perception” boils down to comic characters that can’t seem to recognise the superhero without a flimsy mask.
another bad assumption is the characters are “aliens”, is an obvious “non-confrontational” cop-out.
the fact that many japanese establishments, today, are japanese ONLY contradicts any statements that they don’t perceive through racial filters.
i do think the japanese have an unhealthy identity issue. what can be expected when honored heroes (w/ asian markers) are war criminals?
337 Comments so far. . .
Abagond,
You have to do another post on anime.
Wow… I never thought about it like this. Maybe I have a default white mindset(nmv the fact that I am Black) bc I had always asked myself why Japanese draw White people. Still think those big ass cartoon eyes are tellign us something and ain’t nobody convincing me Sailor Moon is a Japanese girl lol
I’ve never anime characters as white. I related a lot to those characters than most Americans shows. I see more of myself in Usagi from Sailor moon than any show on BET. I can nothing in myself when I watch a Tyler Perry movie. More me, it was the first I saw character drawn in my features, besides skin color. (Round eyes small chin, flat face) But there are quite a few dark-skinned characters in anime. Look Afro Samurai or Nadia. I think the Japanese just didn’t have to identify crisis as most blacks in American. The creator of Spawn, Blade, and Strom were created by white people. Samurai Jack is created by white man, too. What about how the characters in The Simpson? Do they have self-hatred issues, too? Jhonen Vasquez is Mexican. Is JTHM is Mexican? Are all his characters are of his descent? No. I guess he hates himself, too.
The Cynic said:
“Still think those big ass cartoon eyes are tellign us something and ain’t nobody convincing me Sailor Moon is a Japanese girl lol”
Co-sign.
Only through mannerisms and speech patterns do anime characters seem less white than their skin tone suggests, but when you see an individual like Sailor Jupiter (VERY tall female) or Orihime from Bleach (busty, blonde, blue-eyed), it’s hard not to think of them as anything but females deemed ‘caucasian’!
I used to think the same thing when I started watching anime but after watching over 20 series and several anime movies, reading books on mangaka (manga artists) I can say this: Most white characters have non-Japanese names that are clearly from a different culture. For example, in Evangelion, Asuka Langley is half white, something which I assumed since “Langley” is not a Japanese last name. They ususally have a distinct back-story that reveals their “otherness”. It would be boring if all anime characters had brown or black hair and dark eyes, so to distinguish characters, make them more interesting and make them memorable, artists and animators will give them atypical phenotypes. Japanese people, just like everyone else, dye their hair, wear contacts, etc. They are also fair complexioned. Pairing this with the large-eye style of rendering, most “Westerners” assume that these characters are indeed white, not Asian.
Even if the characters look white, names can be a dead giveaway as well, unless it is an anime like Bleach where most of the good guys have Japanese names. Even Kaname Tousen, Aikawa Love (first name is not Japanese) and Shihoin Yoruichi all have Japanese surnames and the all appear to be black. Matsumoto Rangiku is blue eyed and red haired but her name is Japanese. So in that case it’s hard to tell. There are some characters in that anime that look Japanese like Hinamori. All these characters are nonhuman though, they are spirits, so they’re names were probably different when they were alive. Ichigo, the main human character, is also Japanese, yet he has red hair and light brown eyes. I have seen Asian girls with hair like Orihime’s (human)so it didn’t strike me as odd when I saw her. I assumed she was Japanese. Chad (human) is Mexican and he states it in the earlier part of the series. He is the only human character in the series who I assumed was “other”. In Bleach, the Espada are given “other” names, sometimes derived from English or Spanish, to mark them as different from the bad guys.
And yes, as Abagond said, most white people in anime are marked as white or non-Japanese either by a name, behavior or back-story in combination with their appearance.
Even in Naruto, the Chinese character Tenten wears Chinese-style garb and her name is unusual when compared with the other characters like Sasuke, Neji, Shikamaru, etc. If you have taken Japanese language classes you will notice this right away. But depending on the anime, names might not be of importance, like in Bleach where many of the main non-human characters are dead and no longer have their cultural “other” names applied to them in death. The human characters do however.
In series such as Cowboy Bebop, Black Lagoon, Hellsing/Hellsing Ultimate, and Darker Than Black the plot takes place in non-Japanese locales. In Black Lagoon, Rock, the Japanese businessman, is given black hair, dark eyes and pale skin. Dutch is black. Balalaika is Russian, has blonde hair and her back-story indicates that she is Russian. There are South American characters (Argentinian maybe?) and there are clearly Latino as indicated by their stories, names, etc. Revy is half-Chinese, half-white, she indicates this in her backstory but her character, habits, and name are all culturally ambiguous. There is also a Thai or Chinese character in the anime (she is an assassin) and her dress style and accent indicate her as such. I think they also mention that she is Thai or Chinese, I think it’s Thai though. In this case, there is no default character, so all characters are marked, even Rock the Japanese man.
Consequently in these kind of anime, there is a wide variety of characters and they are drawn in regular anime style as Abagond states.
So now, when I am watching anime, I assume that all characters are Japanese unless it is stated or indicated otherwise by some marker.
Lastly, you all need to at least go look at some pictures of Japanese people either on Japanese websites, go to Japan or rent some Japanese movies. Many anime characters are young, and the youth in Japan, especially urban areas, do experiment with their appearance just as Westerners do. So rethink your idea that all Japanese characters have to look a certain way. Excuse spelling errors, I typed in a rush.
Sorry, I didn’t realize that was so freaking long
When I watch anime (which has been a looooong time since I’ve watched a series), I always imagine the characters as white. I know they’re not meant to be sseen as white, but I can’t help it–even when I watch it subbed and within the context of the strong Japanese culture.
“So rethink your idea that all Japanese characters have to look a certain way.”
LMAO
People should rethink their ideas that ALL people of ANY group have to look/behave a certain way!
DeePixie’s link kinda freaked me out. That’s my face. A round wide head with a small chin and small pointy nose. LOL.
People should rethink their ideas that ALL people of ANY group have to look/behave a certain way
“People should rethink their ideas that ALL people of ANY group have to look/behave a certain way”
Con-signed
White people constantly criticising Japanese anime characters for not looking white, ironically don’t really care if their own Western animation characters don’t exactly accurately reproduce the exact skin tone and looks of ‘white people’.
Realistically, the pigment in anime (these days computer drawn) might not accurately have a colour to match the real life skin tones of Japanese people…that may be the best they can do in the animation process. Yet no Westerner complains that Marge Simpson has bright yellow skin, even though (socio-economically), the Simpsons are a ‘white’ family.
People also criticise the hair colours in anime characters. But why is it acceptable for Marge Simpson to have blue hair but not a Japanese anime character to have blue hair?
It is a disturbing double standard that Westerners demand that Japanese characters look extremely realistic like real life people (skin tones that accurately reflect Japanese skin, black-ish hair and black-ish eyes no matter what), yet it’s somehow acceptable for Western animation to have skin tones that don’t accurately reflect their race, and crazy hair colours. (Blue hair, etc…)
Well, when watching Appleseed Ex Machina, (you know, one of those anime set in the future on a post-apocalyptic Earth), of all the main characters only the main heroine struck me as descended of mainly European stock, the rest of the main characters seemed fairly Asian to me.
I’ts called foreign steryotype.Animes have blacks,mexicans and others.But i’ts usually the americanized anime that shows this (School Rumble) same as with voices,mexicans must have a strong accent.Its just like how japanese see us,so we shouldnt have any problem with their white steryotypes if they always draw them with extremely small eyes,i’ts just a fact that some of them do,and some americans have blue eyes and blonde hair.
As for the simpsons;Marge simpson.If you watch an episode,the doctor (Obviously black) and so the simpsons are considered white.Though their hair is pretty unreasonable,marge is just to break the chain of white cartoons.Just because animes have blonde hair blue eyes doesn’t mean they worship whites.See Sayounara Zetsubou Sensei,Negima!,School Rumble,Ichigo Mashimaro and examine the blonde haired characters.Anime is so americanized to fit american standards that to think they worship us would be just plain silly.Everyone steryotypes everyone.Take Apu,for example.From the simpsons.He is based with a strong accent as are most india steryotypes.African americans are based with brown,brown skin super nappy hair and a strong ghettoish accent.The picture above,of the girl,who is blonde is usually portrayed as a foreigner,as for asians in american cartoons.
Interesting post…
I’ve always thought the only reason why the Japanese made their anime characters appear like White people is because of the wide range of variability in White facial features, along with hair color and eye color.
If they made the characters actually look Japanese with jet black hair, slanted eyes, small nose, flat face I’m sure it still woul have been popular in NE Asia.
However, to make it more commercially viable in a global sense, they probably decided to make the characters appear more White, since White features tend to be heterogeneous.
There was a time in the 80s and 90s when Japanese politicians created an uproar when they branded americans as stupid and lazy. This was back when people wrote books on how Japan was going to take over the world.
anime has characters with pink hair and blue not to mention the fact that not all japanese people have slanted eyes where did you guys get the notion that all asian have the same features. Japanese are the palest people I have ever seen. Seriously its sad they have the idea that all asian look the same
hmm its quite truu about this but everyone is automaticaly drawn to people of their type, if your in a room with a group of asians with white people on the other side, if your white … you go to the white side right ?? if your asian … the asian side. This is not meant to be racist or stereotype but we natuarally do it, humans are naturally drawn to people of their own characteristics, we can’t help it. So by reading this it’s kind of easy to see how they relate as people are just makin the same assumption … it’s an easy mistake to make, but at the end of the day, anime is just cartoon … surely they can have any feautures and hair colour they want without havin to worry about whether they are being portrayed as white or worrying about racial identity, it’s just entertainment and something different .. no biggie
@ Naomi: Speak for yourself…
It’s pretty arrogant to ASSume that you can speak for EVERYONE, no?
Then again, based on your grammar and sentence structure, you come across as one who isn’t old enough or educated enough to know very much to begin with.
Anyone here grow up dreaming to be an artist, especially a comic book artist? I did, and so did one of my best friends.
You want to make comics, you learn to draw people. You want to learn to draw people, you learn by trying to copy the best. The best artists of the human body, in any art class? — the renaissance guys: Leonardo, Michaelangelo, etc.
Who did they draw and where were they from? –Europe.
The art most widely accepted as being the most beautiful that the whole world is constantly exposed of from an early age is theirs.
Artists like Miyazaki truly have balls and are great in that they could learn the technique and make it their own. But without truly great story telling, visually and verbally, an artist can still make it by giving the kids what they want. Many cheeky, cool, tough looking, flashy bodied characters fall right in step with the marketing used by the Spice Girls, Hannah Montana, Justin Timberlake, and now Justin Bieber. Top selling childrens entertainment is what many mangas strive to get a piece of. The top selling manga (Naruto, Bleach, One Piece, Fairy Tail) are classified as shounen, which means they are for little kids. Isn’t that what this article is really talking about? The Simpsons aren’t even in that category.
If you want to talk about manga for older crowds, one of the all time best is Lone Wolf and Cub. But there are hundreds if not thousands of running manga out there for adults (who, unlike 10 year old boys, care about the historical meaning behind words),
and they don’t look like Betty Boop.
If it’s okay to judge American adults’ music taste only on Justin Bieber or Hanna Montana, or UK music taste only on the Spice Girls or Lady GaGa (i.e., only the top selling singles), then judging Japanese taste only on the top selling comics may make sense.
The question is not whether or not the Japanese are trying to look white or not, but why White people have such a problem with it. Blacks in the US were discriminated because they were too different. Asians, on the other hand, try to assimilate to American society. Yet, they are criticized for not appreciating their natural looks and culture. It’s hypocritical how people point out how Asians try to look more “white” yet US media is all over the world portraying mostly attractive white people, and not showing any Asians that fit outside of the stereotypical role. So of course western beauty standards has shaped Asian beauty standards, how can it not? If something is shown as beautiful and shown to a human being multiple times, then it’s only human nature to imitate it. I think this is possibly racism at it’s best, criticizing someone for not appreciating their culture and looks, yet show nothing to be proud of their own culture. I think it’s a way the West puts Asia down. If Asians were accepted into mainstream American culture (such as the media) then there won’t be anything to prevent Asians from attaining a higher status in society.
I don’t know…from what I’ve read, seen in documentaries and heard from several Asian people, it seems like they do have a bit of an obsession with western culture and beauty…a lot of Asians (particularly in Korean culture) get eye surgery to adopt a more western appearance in recent years. It’s sad but I think it’s purely economic though…check out the documentary Western Eyes.
@Bunny this has nothing to do with plastic surgery I’m asian and I have double eyelid the whole eye surgery thing is a misconception there are many asian who are born with them that documentary you stated focuses on asian women who grew up in non Asian countries like Canada pressured by its on current standard beauty. Double eyelid does not have anything to do with western culture and neither does it have anything to do with western apperance