The One Drop Rule, also known as hypodescent, says that in American society if you are even part black African and look it you are considered to be all black African. One drop of African blood is enough to make you black.
The actress Halle Berry, for example, is half white. In Brazil she would be considered mixed, in South Africa, Coloured. But in America everyone regards her as black, the same as Naomi Campbell. The divisions of race are more extreme.
For hundreds of years America has been divided into black people and white people. To be white you have to look like a pure white European. If you look even partly African, you will be considered black.
Most white Americans see blacks, anyone who is visibly African, as inferior. In the past they used this to justify owning slaves. Today it justifies the inequality between the races.
Blacks make a distinction between light-skinned and dark-skinned – colourism – but whites for the most part do not. To whites black is black. That is what the One Drop Rule is all about.
It is not based on your family tree but on how you look.
How much black African blood can you have and still “look white”? If you are one-eighth African or less then you have a chance of looking white enough.
If you “look white” then you can “pass for white”. That would mean moving far away to some place where no one knows your family. Not everyone is willing to do that.
The rule means American blacks are not really a race in the common sense of the word: it includes not just people who are mostly African, but even those who are mostly European by blood!
And even many American whites themselves are hardly pure: more than a tenth are at least one-tenth African by blood according to the latest studies.
So while race is important in America, there are no pure races left!
To Americans, black and white, the One Drop Rule seems like common sense, but it is not applied to any other race. And it is not seen in other countries.
In most places where Europeans and Africans have mixed, the colour line is not so sharp. Those who are mixed are often recognized as being neither black nor white, but something in between – like the Coloureds in South Africa. What makes America so different?
White women.
In British India the colour line between the English and Indians did not harden till white women started coming from England.
The same happened in America. When the English came to America they brought their wives and daughters with them. Other Europeans, by and large, left them at home to keep them safe.
This meant that white men in America had a real chance to marry white and have white children. They had the luxury of disowning any mixed children they had because they would not be their only children. And if they did not disown them, their white wives would see to it that they did.
See also:
- Race in America
- Race in Brazil – where there is more race mixing but no One Drop Rule
- Creoles – in Louisiana also did not practise the One Drop Rule in the old days
- The word “black”
- colourism – the light skin/dark skin thing
I knew there’s a difference between U.S. and Latin America is the availability of white women for white men. That means they have a chance to reproduce white offspring and disown darker sons and daughters. America hasn’t come to grips with its racial/sexual past which reverberates in the present: i.e. Strom Thurmond, Don Imus, Johnny Carson’s son’s Black daughter.
Steph
In college I was informed that only like 8 % of the African Americans in America were what could be considered 100% black. You can see it in the all over because people are very beautiful. The mixing of the races has resulted in some very beautiful people. Look at the NBA, I realized I was watching a game a while back and could not discern if the players where white or black when the camera pulled back because so many of the players were very light skinned!blacks.
While you admit there has always been intermixing between cultural groups, you still fall prey to the same concept of “race” that also enforces the colour line.
Race is a construct. There is no black race or white race. The idea of race was created to perpetuate the illusion that Europeans and Africans are completely different types of human beings.
While white and black are still used as catch-all terms and have very real effects on the way we live our lives in the Americas, don’t fall into the trap that race is something scientific or that has a grounding other than one that is systemic, emotional and psychological.
The belief in it has real consequences, and it would be silly to say because you don’t believe in it, it doesn’t matter, because in the end, others do and it will affect how you live. But don’t perpetuate it whenever possible.
Good point.
Race is an anthropological concept. In anthropology, race is not determined by the texture of the hair, or the form of the eyes, or the width of the nose, or the thickness of the lips or the color of the skin. Race is determined by the measurement of the skull.
Usually white people are referred as caucasians which is incorrect. You have white caucasians ( also called nordic type caucasians mainly from Northern Europe), tan caucasians (referred as mediterranean type caucasians, from Southern Europe, the Middle East and Northern Africa), dark caucasians from the Sub-indian continent (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and islands of the Pacific), and black caucasians from Somalia and Ethiopia.
PLEASE COME INTO THE CURRENT CENTURY. BECAUSE NOWADAYS WHITES CAN DEFINATELY BE HEARD MAKING THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN LIGHT-SKINNED BLACKS AND DARKER-SKINNED BLACK PEOPLE. IT IS PERVASIVE EVERYWHERE-ALL RACES-NOT JUST AFRICAN-AMERICANS ARE COLOR CONSCIOUS.
That has not been my experience, but maybe things are changing like you said. Thanks for your comment.
BeauLatasha is Beauty personified and she is multiracial.
This is opinion passing as fact. I live in the Caribbean (check my ip address) and have a huge family some black, some white, a couple of Guyanese indians (same as Indian ones racially), a single Dominican Carib Indian sister-in-law and one Vietnamese one. Whites don’t at all see blacks as inferior in any way, only racist ones. And here in the Caribbean, white racism is covert but black racism is fully expressed and it is blacks putting other blacks down whether it is for figure, or for doing well or anything that is the problem.
Another problem is that there is an expression that says all black men are entitled to white p…. at least once in their lives. Some of these men go after white women just as a hobby for sex, some fall in love and end up marrying them though! But if a black woman goes with a white guy that is considered terrible and she must be a whore. I know many black girls who work in offices and mix with white men all the time who turn down invites out because of what their friends and family would say.
Come to the islands and you will find many mixed marriages, mostly the woman is white and the guy is black and West Indian. When it is the woman who is black, it is almost always her husband is white British or French. American men don’t seem to go out with or marry black women very often.
Everyone should just get along. Slavery long gone. We should all join hands and celebrate nice smiles because that is a beauty we can all share.
Interesting comment. Thank you.
What I said in the post applies only to America. I know it is different elsewhere.
I just stumbled onto your website; and I’ve been devouring it!!! NICE SITE! A good blend of opinion and research (with opinion clearly labelled (mostly)).
In the context of “those that are called Black & one drop rule”…
Can you add a topic or subtopic?
I know from personal family history three things:
1) there were Off-reservation american indians that inter-”married” with Europeans; and were considered Mixed, White or Black or Mulatto (before the word came to mean “black/white” unions only) depending on issues of community, location, looks etc.
2) that whites or Euro/American Indians who “chose” to call themselves Black for the sake of marrying who they wanted in the USA prior to it being legal.
3) That there are Cubans who chose to blend in with Black communities and “became” Black only (like my maternal grandfather). Other Cubans kept some Cuban identity but still lived within the black community. (see also an excellent book “black cuban, black american” in which the author even talks about Italians that were considered Black by American Standards of the 1940/1950′s.)
What say you and your beautiful research….I know I can’t be the only person to fall into such a weird category.
For the record: I’m (Afro-Cuban/Irish/Blackfoot/Crow/Cherokee)(no one uses the word Spanish Creole in my neck of the woods)
Which is why I prefer the use of the word Black to African American. There are those that have no African blood (or little) and to call those African American doesn’t show our true range.
(see Wayne Joseph who found out through DNA that he has NO african in him!!!!)
http://www2.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/2003-12/29/content_294229.htm
No one assumes that a “White” person is automatically British. So why should a “Black” person be automatically African?
Wow, I must have overlooked this post. Very educational: I never thought or knew about the impact of white women on the whole “one drop rule” concept. I thought it was a just way to increase slavery population and keep the “white race” from being contaminated.
I do believe that the ODR turned out to be a complicated yet overall positive thing. It gave blacks a form of solidarity. Since the darkest of slaves and the lightest of “quadroons” were both regarded as the same and were equally prone to a lynching, it created a bond. That’s why despite its racist intentions, it did turn out “good” in a way.
Like skin tone, perceptions of “race” are very subjective as well. Halle Berry looks “mostly white” to you? Really? Most people had no clue she had a white mother when she first came out on the scene. Like most blacks from an interracial union, she’s physically indistinguable from other black Americans. To note though, she did get a nose job at the beginning of her career and she wears extensions and weaves so perhaps that alters your perspective because she looks predominately African, even if genetically she is not.
Halle Berry: I am trying to remember the first time I saw her, before I knew about her white mother. I think that was in “Jungle Fever”. She definitely seemed light-skinned to me then but not “mostly white”. So I think I am affected by knowing about her mother.
Jazzy:
You are hardly the only one who does not fit into society’s nice little black-and-white categories!
Just what is the subtopic you are thinking of? I am not clear on that.
Thanks for that link to the Wayne Joseph story. Wow. He should get retested, though. The lab might have screwed it up. Not to say that it impossible to seen as black without a single drop of black blood. If everyone in America got one of those tests, it would change the face of racism.
It reminds me of David Myers. He was born black but his white mother, to hide an affair she had, told everyone he was a white boy suffering from melanism:
http://media.www.westerncourier.com/media/storage/paper650/news/2005/09/28/News/Man-Discovers.Hes.Black.At.Age.26-1001315.shtml
Well, Jazzy, I have no idea how you look like but black/Native/white ancestry, while “multiracial”, is consistent with being black American or black in the U.S. since most black Americans, despite looks, have some variation of that type of admixture as well.
But Aba, you’re so right, if everyone in this country got a DNA test, it would turn the entire concept of race on it’s head. There’s stories of upper-class white Americans who had to recoup when they found out they had African blood, after getting a DNA test done! They weren’t ready for that. Ditto for black Americans who found about the fairly heavy European blood they had. With that, came a sense of “shame” since they knew where that lineage of their heritage likely came from (slavery/rape).
I remember that Wayne Joseph story. A lot of people thought that he should get a retest. I still wonder about that one sometimes, myself.
The Myers story was interesting. So, did he look “white” because how does a black man live his life without knowing he’s black? There’s stories of white women shipping their black children away or putting them up for adoption as infants when they could no longer “pass”.
ababong, the meyers story was very interesting…thanks for sharing it.
The two subtopics I was referring to in my original message was 1) Off-reservation Indians choosing to live as Black and 2) Cubans and other Latinos who choose to live as Blacks.
As you have pointed out in other blogs, in Latin countries it is usually the culture that takes precedent not the color of a person skin. So that fact that my grandfather choose to cut ties with his family in Florida and move to Non-spanish Harlem was a big deal. (especially since he married my Irish/blackfoot grandmother…who was VERY irish in appearance but told everyone she was mulatto to pass for black). I was just wondering if in your “travels through the internet” if you’d run across others.
I know about Rueben Santiago-Hudson…but that’s not exactly the same because his mother was African American (not black cuban or black puertorican).
And to answer mynameismyname…..People have always asked me if I was PuertoRican. Two years ago two co-workers I didn’t know actually got into a stupid argument over what I was…So I guess I look fairly Hispanic….I’m slightly darker than Shakira; and have been told I look like her or a Indian/Hispanic mix of Vanessa L. Williams.
I identify as Black Hispanic. And would never want to be anyone other than Black. I love that ALL of my people come in such beautiful shades and looks. I guess I just wish people were more open minded to the Variety…and I’m Glad I found a place (HERE) were people recognize/respect the variety. And allow me to learn new interesting aspects of the subject.
So thanks again for the Blog ABAGOND and thanks to all the wonderful points of view that I’ve been exposed to here.
Jazzy, you might be interested in Rosario Dawson. I posted on her and what she and others make of her “race”:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/08/09/rosario-dawson/
David Myers looked quite black. Here is a picture with his two white half-sisters:
http://blog.qusan.com/uploaded_images/whiteboy-779898.jpg
He grew up in all-white towns in Ohio and upstate New York, so all he knew about black people was from television. Kids at school would call him names, but his mother explained that he was a white boy with a skin disease.
Jazzy, I really like your post. I too like that this blog gives me a really cool, open place to dicuss the complexities of the artifical yet very real social construction that is called “race”. It controls everything in our society yet is really talked about in the real world, the internet and great blogs like this give us a place to dicuss.
Wow, Dave Meyers is a CLEARLY a black man. His hair texture and features are very black, so how did mom explain that as well? Did he ever connect with other black people later in his life?
‘Something that is RARELY talked about in the real world’, is what I meant to type above.
About Myers: his mother’s lie did not add up, but everyone in the family wanted it to be true, so no one questioned it.
I just did a post on Myers:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/09/13/david-myers-a-black-boy-who-thought-he-was-white/
Abagond,
that’s for the suggestion to see the Rosario Dawson post; like her my ethnicity and race only became an issue because of others. Thanks again for pointing out that blog.
mynameismyname, I saw a blog on the net where meyers himself was speaking about his attempt to come to an understanding about his past…that he met his father through one of his other brothers (on his father’s side)….I’m sorry to say I couldn’t find the exact link….but it was on this site:
http://discussrace.com/portal/index.php
Again Abagond, I want to thank you for this site and for introducing me to Meyer’s story. After reading his story (and seeing Rosario Dawson), I have NO PROBLEM with my place in the world and I will no longer allow others to cause me confusion. Smile. I am what I am….and Thank GOD!!!
I feel deeply for meyers and pray that he’ll find peace.
Abagond, I appreciate your blog, but I don’t appreciate statements like “Whites see blacks, anyone who is visibly African, as inferior.” If you instead said “SOME Whites” that would be completely different. I am white and I hate racism whether it is from white people, black people or anyone else. So please stop the generalizations.
I corrected that. Sorry. I tend to speak in absolutes. It is a bad habit of mine.
I did not change it to “Some whites” but “Most white Americans”.
You might not agree with that, but in my experience nearly all white Americans are racist but are blind to it, something I have written about at great length on this blog. Start here:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/08/06/all-whites-are-racist/
Whites have made “racist” such a dirty word that it shuts down all honest talk about it, leaving their racism pretty much unchanged since the 1970s.
Jazz: I am so glad I have been a help to you.
We disagree about “some vs. most”, but thank you for acknowledging that speaking in absolutes is a bad habit. Although we disagree on some things, I do enjoy your blog, especially your tributes to beautiful and thick African American women. You have excellent taste in beauty, like me (smile).
Halle berry dose NOT look mostly White/European. Black people in most cases are not literally “black” skin color varies. So does hair texture. Note: most black women, Halle Berry included straiten their hair. This women, Ms. Berry is clearly African. And more importantly she refers to herself as a “black women and and African American”. the “one drop” rule is ridiculous. but having one Black parent gives a person enough similar traits (inside and out) to be considered Black. African Americans are a Hybrid race. And Colourism was invented by Whites during slavery (divide and conquer) does the brown paper bag test ring a bell?
Another commenter got me to admit that before I knew Halle Berry’s mother was white, like when I saw her in “Boomerang”, I never thought of her as anything but just plain black. So it seems I am affected by that knowledge. On the other hand there are scenes of her in “Gothika” where she looks very close to white.
I have never seen her father, but given that something like 70% of blacks are part white, that would mean Miss Berry is probably more than half white.
Actually, the ballpark figure is about 90% of western blacks have non-African blood. Few black Americans especially are full blooded Africans. No matter how they look (to people or to themselves).
That’s partly one reason why I find the terms “biracial” and “mixed” to be frustrating. Sure, having parents of two different “races” does make you different from the vast majority of Americans. But in the case of black Americans, you have a hybridized race. Why the hell do you think the labels of “light skinned” and “dark skinned” get applied to black Americans but not as much to non-black Americans?
What about the many black American women who look a lot “whiter” or more “ambigious” than Berry? Or better yet, look similar to her? But have two black parents? Berry is “biracial” yet their “plain black”? I’d go on the lim and call both of them black. Makes more sense, no?
I don’t consider biracial people or multiracial people black. And I think we need to get away from that.
My sisters husband consideres her self black.
Her mother and father were black.
Her husband was black
Her son is black
she has light green eyes…skin almost as light as mine but with a beautiful golden cast and her hair while course and curly or “typically black” in texture is an ash blonde. Facial and body features are african in shape. If you ever told her she was anything but a proud black women she would woop your behind. She is amazing – in the 60s – she because a cop. Overcoming Racial and Sex barriars. She raised her children on her own. I am in awe of her.
My Niece, although half white, 1/4 hispanic and a 1/4 black….has the exact same body as her great grandma so far. She has almost black eyes (lashes you can hear open and closes) and facial features – while slightly softened by my side of the family – still echo her matriarch.
More important than her racial backgroud- my niece has her matriarchs (great grandma – my mother) who both did a mans job in a time women were virtually barred – and a mother and an aunt who are smart and strong and never let people walk all over us. I hope she follows in all of our foot steps. I hope we teach her to embrace all aspects of her heritage and history…put her shoulders back and take the world by storm.
Argh – TYPO AGAIN
First Line –
“My Sisters Husbands grandmother” is what I ment – I hate this lap top keyboard.
@lalala
What you consider them (biracial or multiracial people) as is irrelevant.
What is most important is how they choose to self-identify.
Halle Berry self-identifies as black therfore she is black.
Tiger Woods self-identify as caublasian, therefore he is caublasian.
Some have a choice as to what they call themselves, like world-famous golfers and those who look like they could be either black or white. But most of us do not have that choice. Not in current American society.
I don’t think, it’s 15%,it’s less and you should be proud, just like whites in the US is proud to be white.
Why is there mixing? It’s because of the KKK and gang rapes and also the slave masters. Slavery in Briazil went on longer then USA and that why there more light skinned people in Latin-American isn’t because there mix-race marriage going on it’s because white men use to leave there wife safe in europe while their raped and raped and killed Africans and Native Indians. Racism is the norm in Brazil.
I so sick of people thinking if all of us is light skin the slave masters will accept us more well just look at Brazil black people of all shades are treated the same. I live in New York, and black people of all shades are mistreated. I am so-called light skinned why because my great grand mother was raped nothing to be proud of. Obama is a blackman full stop, both my parents are black and in my family we come in different shades beautiful ebony to light brown like Obama. If both Obama parents were black and he had the same skin colour we all say he a black man. Both my parents are black my father light skin and my mother dark skinned my colour is between my mother and father I am the same colour as Obama I am a black woman. My father is much lighter then Obama this doesn’t stop the whites in Brazil from mistreating him and being racist towards him and his family who are all very light skinned. By the way Brazil is a very racist country and there are lots of so-called light skinned blacks. African American should be happy for the one drop rule it’s make black people in the US work together we don’t have a civil rights like the US you should be happy and proud for dark skin Dr Martin King, because noway will there ever be a black leader in my country. I hate Brazil and the lies it export that it’s a non racist country. Black Brazilians play around with racism and are so in love with they white master they don’t realise that racist as made them the lowest form of life in Brazil. It’s just recently that Brazilian as seen Black Americans and realise there are still in slavery. As for tiger woods the man is a a class uncle tom no one respects him I remember being in london an a BBC report calling him a uncle tom.
Yes he is! Thank you for that.
(excuse my english i am a french native speaker)
Hi,
I came across this blog by chance while looking for pictures of beautiful black woman. I read a couple of posts, which I found very interesting.
About the situation in France:
The one drop rule exists also in France. Being 100% african, i have often been amazed to see almost white people being labelled “black” (especially those from carribean islands Martinique, Guadeloupe and Guyane), even if they look much more like a white person than like me.
But there are more mixed marriages than anywhere else in europe i think. That said, these are mostly second marriages and/or in lower middle-class.
It is weird because from France we have the impression that black people in America are much more integrated in the society at all levels (economically, politically…), so I am quite “amazed” at what I read in this blog, about how whites see black in the usa.
Thanks for telling us what it is like in France.
Racism is not yet dead in America, even if we are about to have a black president. Things are way better than they were 50 years ago, but there is still a ways to go.
seems im one of the few that does NOT call mixed people black, i use the word “mulatto” as my friends friend call herself.
and about rape..well here in Sweden we got white women being RAPED BY North Africans, Somalis, West Africans, Kurds, Arabs etc etc just because they are “white/swedish”.
How do you know it was just because they are white?
abagond Says:
Mon 20 Apr 2009 at 06:37:21
How do you know it was just because they are white?
because the majority of gang-rapes & rapes where the victims are assaulted by strangers are commited by non-european immigrants and the majority of victims are “north-european looking. People from cultures where women have less rights than men are overrepresented, like Middle Eastern countries like incl mostly islamic African countries. I read an interview with a young man ( prolly from Middle East ) who said that “its better to rape a swedish girl because she wont suffer as much as a arab girl who has “family honor” to think off.” Its a shame that people like that are allowed to stay in our country after they have serverd their prison time, i just saw the news about a rape that was commited a few years ago where 4 somalian guys raped, robbed and then tried to kill one of the 2 white girls with a stone. Media covered it up and called the perpetrators “swedes” tho it was 3 black somalis with swedish citizenship and 1 black somali with finnish citizenship. Media even choose “caucasian-like” sillouettes when they described the guys, its known to most people who knows about this case that the perpetrators was black and somalian, you can even get thier names from the “trial-protocols” if you want too. This does not mean that all immigrants are potential rapists, just a few asses who destroy for the majority of good somalians.
and then we got another axample just recently..5 kurdish guys rapes a 13 year old girl in a “cave” in a “waterfun/adventure” place.
btw..this One Drop Rule blog is prolly not the best place to discuss about rapes etc etc, feel free to delete or move my posts to a better more appropiate blog.
Black-on-white rapes came under another blog post too: “black brute stereotype”. Looks like I will have to do a post on it….
Another white person attempting to flip the script in order to divert from in-depth discussion of white racism …
mynameismyname Says:
Tue 21 Apr 2009 at 01:27:58
Another white person attempting to flip the script in order to divert from in-depth discussion of white racism …
i dont really understand your post, ( if that was adressed to me )..
“Black-on-white rapes came under another blog post too: “black brute stereotype”. Looks like I will have to do a post on it….”
Why do I have a feeling you will try to blame all the negative consequences on white men…
Sometimes I find it ridiculous when you have a person with bright pink cheeks and red ears and people call them black.
Yeah, but “Me”, these pink-cheeed, red eared black folks proudly proclaim their blackness. No one is forcing them. They identify as black with pride. Who is anyone to argue with them?
Does anyone find it ridiculous that many dark-hued, dark-eyed, dark-haired Meds and Middle Easterns as well as Eurasians are called “white”? Why is no one protesting or criticizing that?
I’m sure those dark hued Meds (?), MEs and Eurasions don’t consider themselves white
You sure about that?
You don’t think Italians, Portuguese, Spainards and French Americans check off “white” on the Census box?
Hell, half of the so-called “Hispanics” in the U.S. call themselves white according to the government census.
There are large populations of Syrians, Lebanese and other ME types in the Northeast. They generally see themselves as white and are perceived as such, regardless of their decidely non-Anglo appearance.
Ditto with many Eurasians. You’d be surprised.
Something interesting to consider: Tiger Woods is half black, half asian, yet most people consider him black, especially the media. In an interview Tiger Woods said this is offensive to his asian mother, and he wants people to recognize his asian hertiage, as well. The reason for this is because physically, he appears to be more black than asian.
The “One Drop Rule” applies in other cases, not just between black and white. Today (2009 not 1809 or whatever century your on) there are other races important in America.
If the “one drop rule” was relative today, most Caribbean Latinos (Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, Cubans) would easily be considered black in the U.S.
So, would a large segment of whites.
Yet, that’s not the case, is it?
So, Isaac, you’re for the one-drop rule to apply to everyone who isn’t white so that you can be sure of your white identity? Is that what you are saying?
mynameismyname,
Most Caribbean Latinos (and other non-Caribbean Latinos) are Afro-Latinos even though they try hard to DENY it on the basis of superficial characteristics.
As a person whose family is Caribbean Latino, I would like to see Afro-Latinos embrace their full identity instead of PRETENDING they’re “white” when they’re not.
i don’t think its true that if a mixed race person looks white they now have to pass. I can think of a few celebs who are part black but are seen by most as white or mixed, but hardly any people as black. these include nicole richie, heather locklear, rosanna arquette, adriana lma, jessica szohr, wentworth miller, carly simon & carol channing. most of the previous celebs apart from carol channing have not denied their heritage, but are still not seen by the majority of white or black people as ‘black & they are not a part of the one drop rule.
there are complete differences between how people view a mixed person that looks like halle berry or wentworth miller. exception to the rule: mariah carey & that is perhaps because she has embraced black culture & music.
Funny example of One Drop Rule: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCgpb53JI18
We feel it in the one drop and we still have time to rock – Bob Marley ha ha ha
Back to the topic. Here’s my spin on things.
I think there is something about England and it being an island that may have enforced this rule.
You allude to almost most of the major racial differences. If I may also add another one… viz. if her father was Arab and mother Black then she would be an Arab.
back to what I was saying.
The Spanish and Portuguese were already a mixed nation
because of the Moors.
However, and this is just solely my view. I think the English saw themselves as ‘pure’ that even the smallest amount of blood, especially from a Non-White would in effect spoil
the White/Englishness. Hence teh one-drop rule
Finally I am not quite sure what could be the suggestion about the reference to the colour line in India. Since, I thought not many English women went to India.??
@anonymous:
Really? I thought Heather Locklear, Rosanna Arquette, Carly Simon and Carol Channing were white. I didn’t know this.
This is a great website. This topic needs to be brought to the forefront of discussions about race and racism in America. This is the topic no one wants to admit is actually a topic of concern for many, if not most, people in this country and in the world.
I am a proud black woman. My mother’s mother was half white. My maternal grandmother’s father was a white man who lived in Mississippi, who married a black woman in the 1800s. He was ostracized by his family and told that he was now a black man. I never knew him, but I have to give mad props to my great grandfather for marrying the woman he loved in times where it might have made more sense to just conform.
My mother was light-skinned (now deceased) and so am I and most of my siblings (all except one actually) even though our father was dark-brown skinned. I guess most of us “reached” back and took genes from lighter-skinned ancestors of both our parents (my father’s mother was of Afro-Carribbean ancestry).
I lived and worked in Florida for five years. Many of my co-workers were Italian. I was told by more than one of them that I “could be Italian!” They said this to me as if I should jump for joy upon hearing it. Don’t get me wrong, I love all people–Italians included, but I have no desire to pretend to be any race other than the one listed on my birth certificate.
I have also lived and worked in Texas. When I allow my hair to grow down my back (which I don’t often do based on preference for chin-length hair for me), people approach me all the time speaking Spanish, never questioning whether or not I am Spanish-speaking, which I am not.
I just wanted to throw my comments into the mix to say that our world is not just race/color conscious, it is race/color insane. Anyone who does not realize this may not be paying close enough attention.
Recommended reading: “Black Like Me,” a book written by a man named John Howard Griffin, published in 1961. The things he went through pretending to be a black man are very relevant to the world we live in today.
(And even though one maternal great grandfather was white, and one maternal great great grandfather was Native American, I am not at all offended when people “get it right” and recognize me as a black woman. The world sees me as black, not mixed, and so do I. I am too proud, too strong, have been the victim of too much racism based on race, to deny being black! Hell, it’s not only a birthright, I’ve earned this, and I accept it honestly and proudly. )
Good for you Middlebrook. I am proud of who I am too. I am not ashamed because I am White. I’m just proud to be me and wish people of all backgrounds would respect me for the person I am. (some people do not.)
I agree with you that our world is race/color INSANE! – but I do feel this is mostly a U.S. problem. (I’ve lived in Brazil and my wife is Brazilian and it is not like that there.)
Mira, here’s my response to your comment in the “reading while white…” post:
I see: what you look like seems more important than your actual ancestry. I guess that’s why Wentworth Miller is generally accepted as white even though his father (?) is black (or biracial himself). Because Wentworth looks like a white person (at least to me, and I guess I’m not the only one).
To me, Wentworth Miller looks partially black. From the first time I saw him, I knew he wasn’t “full” white; his appearance is similar to other biracial black-white people I’ve seen. He has darker coloring than the typical WASP I was used to in New England. Although of course, he could’ve been of Eastern European descent, I thought it was more likely that he was part black.
I used to think black ancestors are what make you “bad” according to the one drop rule, but it looks like it’s more about if you look black (if you have “black” genes as dominant or not). Is that how it goes?
Have you ever read the short story “Desiree’s Baby” by Kate Chopin? I think it’s an excellent piece that describes how blackness is seen as “tainted” in the US. It is set in pre-Civil War Creole Louisiana, but I think it is still somewhat applicable to today’s issues. If you haven’t read it, you can read it here:
http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/857/
or Wikipedia it… Now, to your question. I think as long as no one can tell that you have black ancestry, everything is okay as far as your experiences with racial discrimination in the US (It might be a different story when/if they find out). I believe a large part of what drove and still drives racism are physical differences and their implications. But that’s just my opinion, others may think differently.
Maybe I’m just bias because there are so many black and biracial people in my family, but I can’t call someone black if they are half white. With Obama, he wants to be recognize as black so I will call him black, but I don’t actually think he is black. Statistics also show there are more biracial children than ever, so I think that shows people are more open to racial mixing and not labeling them black or white.
Mira said (on another thread where it was becoming off-topic)
“Yes, I understand that. I understand the twisted logic behind it, but I am unable to apply one drop rule to my thinking. For example, Obama is mixed to me, and his wife is black.”
Imagine vanilla ice cream mixed not with chocolate but with shit. Blacks are screwed up, there is something wrong with them.
Deep down White Americans think of blacks as monkeys:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/02/25/black-people-as-monkeys/
I think you have probably seen those pictures of Michelle Obama. Where do you think that is coming from?
“(To be honest, I don’t know how you can talk about it so… calmly, like a fact that nobody finds shocking).”
In America it is a fact of life. But it is one of those things that very few white people will openly admit to and yet it is pretty clear it shapes their thinking.
Thank you for your answer, Natasha
To me, Wentworth Miller looks partially black. From the first time I saw him, I knew he wasn’t “full” white; his appearance is similar to other biracial black-white people I’ve seen.
I’ve never met a biracial person so I can’t tell. I understand that a black person could see his black ancestry but seriously, it never occurred to me he’s anything but white. He’s not even “exotic” to me (and I guess a mixed person would look “exotic” to me). Then again, I must admit I’m not a fan of “Prison Break” so I didn’t get to watch him a lot.
He has darker coloring than the typical WASP I was used to in New England. Although of course, he could’ve been of Eastern European descent, I thought it was more likely that he was part black.
Yes, I think this might be an explanation. To me, “white” doesn’t equal WASP. I know many white people who are not WASP and could never pass as WASP (I guess). Hey, most of the white people I know are not WASP and could not pass as such, so to me, someone who looks like Wentworth looks white. I’m not trying to ignore deny his black ancestry, but I’m trying to explain why he looked like a regular white actor to me. Hey, he’s even lighter than many white people I know. He’s lighter than my husband, who is white. That’s why I was surprised to learn about Wentworth’s black father.
But do you agree that Wentworth could pass as white? Or is it just to me?
Have you ever read the short story “Desiree’s Baby” by Kate Chopin?
No, but thanks for the link. Can’t wait to read it!
I think as long as no one can tell that you have black ancestry, everything is okay as far as your experiences with racial discrimination in the US (It might be a different story when/if they find out). I believe a large part of what drove and still drives racism are physical differences and their implications. But that’s just my opinion, others may think differently.
I wonder what happens to people who can pass for white, but refuse to do so. What happens when people realize that their lovely, friendly co-worker or a neighbour is part black?
I understand physical differences. Physical differences are natural (I mean, they are biology. No two humans are the same, there are always physical differences, even with people of the same race). But the implications? That’s the part I don’t like.
@Abagond
First of all, sorry for the off topic. I’ll move to the more appropriate post any time a conversation becomes off topic.
Imagine vanilla ice cream mixed not with chocolate but with shit.
This is very graphic. But don’t get me wrong, I like the analogy. It’s precise and call things the right names instead euphemisms. Sometimes, using strong words is the only way to go.
Blacks are screwed up, there is something wrong with them.
What? Like, there are more melanin in their skin and their hair has different texture? No, seriously: WHAT is considered to be so wrong/ugly/bad about black people, according to whites? What?
(In the only analogy I know of, Gypsies, they are called dirty and smelly- and that’s just for a start. Lesser beings to put it shortly. Is that how it goes for black people?)
I think you have probably seen those pictures of Michelle Obama. Where do you think that is coming from?
To be honest, no, I haven’t seen Michelle monkey picture, but I can imagine. What I found interesting here is that Michelle is attacked, not her husband. I mean, it’s usual in my country to see politicians as animals, often monkeys, but not their spouses (except for Slobodan Milosevic’s wife, who was also a politician and- some argue- worse than him). So, to me, comparing politicians with animals (specially monkeys) is nothing strange.
However, I understand this is different. I remember there were some Bush as monkey images, but with the history of racism in the US, it looks like many whites DO see black people as monkeys. It goes beyond “this politician is bad and he’s acting like a monkey”- people really seem to think blacks do look like monkeys (physically), but are also intelligent as monkeys (=not very bright). Plus- and this may not be the most important to you here, but it is to me- it’s Michelle, not her husband. What did she do to deserve such treatment? She is a First lady. She is not the president. If you hate his politics, attack him, not her. But it looks like it’s not about politics, but about this black (!!!!) woman acting all classy and educated, not being afraid to speak her mind and expects to be treated with respect. She’s nothing but another jungle animal! All black people look as monkeys anyway.
(Is that how it goes?)
In America it is a fact of life. But it is one of those things that very few white people will openly admit to and yet it is pretty clear it shapes their thinking.
White people seem to be obsessed with fake politeness. Ok, I don’t know any non-white people so I can’t tell, but from what I read here and elsewhere, it does look like whites are more concerned about their image and politeness than the truth, honesty and love (Christian love or any other love for other human beings). For example, it’s more important not to seem racist than to actually be anti-racist. It’s more important to be polite than to love people around you. Etc.
That’s why, I believe, many white people don’t even let their brain consciously think: “Black people are ugly and violent”- because they know it’s not a nice (polite) thing to think or say. But that doesn’t mean they don’t think it anyway, so they try to mask it with various euphemisms. Why? Not because of black people, but because they don’t want to appear as racist. They also seem so scared of their thoughts that they avoid word “black”, as if it’s a bad word. There’s nothing wrong with that word and people who are black- so why would you avoid saying it? Because, deep down, that IS a bad word (to many).
All of this could be just a wild guess, but some comments and posts do look like it might be the case. Not all white people, of course, but enough number of them to shape public opinion.
Then again, I must admit I’m not a fan of “Prison Break” so I didn’t get to watch him a lot.
I love(d) Prison Break. Mainly because of Wentworth. I love his acting; facial expressions, movements. The ending was quite sad.
But do you agree that Wentworth could pass as white? Or is it just to me?
Well, I think it depends on his styling and who you are asking. If he is tanned and has his hair cut low, he looks less “white” than he does with longer hair and no tan. My SO thinks he looks mixed as well, but I know other white people that think he looks white.
I wonder what happens to people who can pass for white, but refuse to do so. What happens when people realize that their lovely, friendly co-worker or a neighbour is part black?
Well, my cousin refers to herself as biracial, but it’s inconsequent because she is still seen as white by people who are unfamiliar with her. She is physically indistinguishable from a person with two white parents; think Gwyneth Paltrow with wavier, golden blonde hair.
As far as what happens, she’s had experiences where people who think she is just another WASP find out her father is of W. African descent and begin to treat her differently. One guy she was dating was really awkward about it and their relationship went downhill from there.
It’s clear that the one drop rule as evidenced by the “you are what you look like” method of defining “race” is a tool for ANTI-BLACK RACIST/HATERS to perpetuate White supremacy/White privilege in America.
This BACKWARDS/IGNORANT/IDIOTIC way of “defining race” needs to be PERMANENTLY DISMISSED as a legitimate way of assessing an individual’s racial identity.
@Natasha W
I love(d) Prison Break. Mainly because of Wentworth. I love his acting; facial expressions, movements. The ending was quite sad.
Many people say Prison Break was great, but I guess I was too ignorant to give ti a chance. “Prison? No thanks.” that was all I thought. My mother loved it, and I guess Wentworth might be the reason (lol, and he’s young enough to be her son).
Well, I think it depends on his styling and who you are asking. If he is tanned and has his hair cut low, he looks less “white” than he does with longer hair and no tan. My SO thinks he looks mixed as well, but I know other white people that think he looks white.
I think it depends, yes. Like I said, to me, he looks white because I’m not used to WASPs and I’m also not used to mixed and black people, so I can’t tell. If he’s not tanned I guess that makes him more white. But in any case, I’m not trying to say the guy isn’t partially black- he IS. I see him as mixed now when I learned about his parents. (But to be honest, “seeing someone as mixed” doesn’t mean much to me, in terms of what I expect of a person).
As far as what happens, she’s had experiences where people who think she is just another WASP find out her father is of W. African descent and begin to treat her differently. One guy she was dating was really awkward about it and their relationship went downhill from there.
I guess it’s difficult. But at least she learned what people really think and who is honest and who is not, and who is a true friend and who isn’t.
Mira,
I think you’d be interested in reading about aversive racism:
http://academic.udayton.edu/race/01race/racism10.htm
Basically, the theory outlines why being seen as “anti-racist” is more important than actually not being racist and ties in with the whole “appearances” thing you’ve been talking about.
Abagond, I think it’d be great if you did a post on it–that and microaggressions.
Jasmin,
Thanks for the link! I’ll read it and post my comments here.
@Natasha W
I read the story. It’s very interesting (as a story, especially the “twist” ending), and yes, it does show one drop rule in practice. I am sure many people still think like that, but it’s forbidden to speak so openly about it. Which doesn’t mean it’s gone.
Jasmin,
I read the article and it’s excellent. I understand some things better now. I especially liked this: Like a virus that has mutated, racism has evolved into different forms that are not only more difficult to recognize but also to combat.
Mira,
I think aversive racism has just made it into “mainstream” (i.e., blogs and media) discourse, but the term was coined before I was born! 1987, I think.
THE ONE DROP RULE DOES NOT GENERALLY APPLY ANYMORE. if anything people often always one drop 3/4 black people as black probably around half of black and white people see half black people as black (according to wikipedia) -how very precise . but even less see 1/4 black people such as wentworth miller and jessica szohr as black. once someone has 1/6th, 1/8th or less black in them they are seen by most (even in the U.S.A) as white. I know i’m going into a lot of detail about fractions of mixed race genes but they really make a difference. most people see channing tatum carol channing (maybe something about the name channing) or carly simon, heather locklear and annalynne mccord as white. if the one drop rule stil exists why is is that so? but barely anyone questions if montell williams,grant hill are black.
“Blacks make a distinction between light-skinned and dark-skinned – colourism – but whites for the most part do not. To whites black is black. ”
I don’t think this is quite true. While I agree that many whites may not accept light skin/mixed race Blacks I do think that they are given privileges over their darker brethren/sistren. Check this, an excerpt from my Psych book, “Psychology Ninth Edition In Modules” by David G. Myers. Pg 705
Seeing Black: Several studies show that the more a person’s features are perceived as typical of their racial category, the more likely they are to elicit race-based responding (Maddox, 2004). In one study of 182 police officers, Jeninifer Eberhardt and her collaborators (2004, ’06) found that “Black faces looked more criminal to police officers; the more Black, the more criminal.” In a follow-up study, they found ppl more willing to give the death sentence to Black defendants having the most stereotypically Black features.
Studies even show that people prefer lighter skin when it comes to hiring.
http://www.uga.edu/columns/061002/news-skintone.html
“The findings in this study are, tragically, not too surprising,” Harrison said. “We found that a light-skinned black male can have only a bachelor’s degree and typical work experience and still be preferred over a dark-skinned black male with an M.B.A. and past managerial positions, simply because expectations of the light-skinned black male are much higher, and he doesn’t appear as ‘menacing’ as the darker-skinned male applicant.”
I mean just look at every Black CNN journalist. I think many whites implicitly look at lighter skin Blacks and think, well you aren’t proper Black, so you can’t be THAT bad.
Abagond:
I think the time has come for us as black-americans to get rid of the one-drop rule for good. Slavery is over, so, Why do we need some rule that was forced upon us because whitemen didn’t wanna claim their half-white babies who were birthed by blackwomen. The rule has morphed into a caste-type system, similiar to what they have in India. Light-skinned on top, brown in the middle, and dark on the bottom. It causes a lot of strife amongst our people, and it needs to be done away with. Real black people should not be leaped over by those who are only half-black, in terms of politics, business, entertainment, sports, music, art, fashion, modeling, etc.
Tyrone
Reality Mode
.
There is absolutely NO SUCH THING as
a so-called ‘Light-Skinned Black’ person.
.
The term of ‘Light-Skinned Black’ is simply a racist
oxymoron that was created by racial supremacists
in an effort to deny people who are of a Mixed-Race
Lineage the right to embrace their full-Lineage and
to have said lineage publicly acknowledged as well.
.
The very term of ‘Light-Skinned Black’ is based
on the application of the ‘black-lineage mocking’,
non-scientific and racist ‘One Drop Rule’ (ODR).
.
In it’s decision in the 1967 “Loving” case, the U.S.
Supreme Court stated that the racist-’One-Drop Rule’
(ODR) was UN-Constitutional (i.e. illegal, outlawed,
banned, unenforceable, non-applicable, etc.) and in
this decision, the high court also described the vile
ODR by such terms as ‘odious’ and as ‘repugnant’.
.
Here are a few ‘Reference’ Links for any
and everyone who refuses to accept vile
views of the racist-’One-Drop Rule’ (ODR)
.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/4162
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/4187
.
http://parablemania.ektopos.com/archives/2011/09/scotus1drop.html
.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/4160
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/4157
.
http://www.facebook.com/allpeople.gifts/posts/300777016632181
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/4186
.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/4152
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/4153
.
RELATED LINKS:
.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/3331
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/1399
.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/1034
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Generation-Mixed/message/1032
.
“We must secure the existence of our people and a future for White children.”
Because the beauty of the White Aryan woman must not perish from the earth.”
Two 14 word sentences from David Lane that pretty much spell it out. There’s a place on earth for all ethnicities but I hope that the expression of my forefather’s blood survives.
Abagond:
“Dilution” is the issue that black folk don’t wanna talk about. Having half-black children is a crapshoot. If you’re half-black and female, you lucked out. If you’re half-black and male, it sucks. I don’t see a lot of Al B. Sure types in hip-hop and sports, just saying. “Blackness Runs Thru The Female.” Bringing biracial children into the world hurts blackmen more so than blackwomen…Bottomline!!!
Tyrone
This is one hundred percent accurate. I’m half black and half white. My mom is white and my dad is black. I have a white step-dad and white step-siblings. I remember one time last year, I was talking about the first two high school parties I had ever went to. I don’t remember how it ever came up but I had said that the first party I went to, I was the only black person there and the second party I went to, I was the only white person there. My step-brother looked at me very strangely, like I was stupid, and said “What do you mean you were the only white person there?” Even though I am JUST AS MUCH WHITE as I am black, he sees me as fully black, and therefore treats me differently because of that.
lol this is 5+ years old and still talked as current, maybe the people still looking for a negative role to identify with can find something but the social majority is ready to move on …