Is this blog racist? Are my blog posts prejudiced against whites? Many White American commenters seem to think so. Some go so far as to say it is like a black Stormfront (the Klan website).
The reasons given come down to these as best as I can tell:
- Generalizations: To make any general statement about whites is stereotyping and therefore racist.
- Lack of colour-blindness: To see them as white means I am seeing them according to the colour of their skin, not the content of their character.
- The “all whites” argument: Even though I am not so brainless as to ever say “all whites” are anything, the “all” gets read in anyway. Even when I say “many whites”, “some whites” or “most whites”.
- Divisiveness: To bring up race at all is to create division and hatred.
- Tone: To say anything bad about whites is read as hatred against whites.
Number #3 cannot be helped: no matter how carefully I word my statements, the “all whites” gets read into it.
But neither can the others be helped. To talk about white racism at all I must:
- Make general statements about whites.
- Notice the race of actors and the race of those they act against.
- Say possibly bad things about whites.
Yes, each of these can be used to make racist statements. The trouble is, they must also be used to make any statement about race, like those about racism.
It is a confusion of form over substance. Racism lies not in the form of a statement but in what is being said.
For a post to be racist it would have to say or assume that one race is naturally better than another. People who call me racist never seem to be able to show that.
I am not perfect, I have been brainwashed by a racist culture like everyone else in America. No doubt you can find unintended racist thought in my posts. But the heart of my thinking in regard to race has been that it is the creation of history to excuse the inexcusable, both in the past and even now. The One Drop Rule makes that crystal clear to me.
In a perfect world people should be colour-blind but in America in 2012 it is profoundly unwise for people of colour while for whites it amounts to a studied blindness about the true nature of their society. It makes it hard for anyone to see racism as clearly as they should.
What keeps racism alive is that whites as a whole are not forced to face up to it. Most hide behind well-scripted excuses and lies.
Whites are individuals yet, sadly, the thought and behaviour of most of them is racist enough that it has serious, unmistakable, large-scale effects on blacks and other people of colour.
To notice this stuff and point it out is not racist. To turn a blind eye to it is.
See also:
Keep doing what you’re doing. Whether or not I’ve agreed at times, I think it is clear that your writing IS NOT racist, that it is pro-human and anti-racist. Unfortunately, “white” identity is largely premised on an essential comfort with the way things are, which means that non-whites must either accept and acquiesce to what is defined as the norm, or they are branded as “racist” or “radical.”
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This blog is very unfair to white people. I’m glad for it, though. I think any white person reading it will be in for a rude awakening, they will be surprised as to how black people really think. It has made me realize that white people need to decide on their own how to deal with black people and race issues. I generally think discussing race with black people is a waste of time.
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I think the mistake black people are making is confusing white people’s kindness with weakness. We are nice, but we aren’t weak.
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Aba,
I don’t find this blog racist.
I find it to be the refreshing truth.
Most whites will never own up to their racism, overt or covert, unless it’s in the deepest, darkest part of their dungeons.
To admit their true selves is to admit their lives have been a lie.
What an earth shattering revelation that would be!
The reason why some whites, and you know EXACTLY who you are, come on this blog and spew their brand of ingorance / hatred / fear is because they know deep down that the words you write are the dreaded truth.
Falseness is a trait that is predominately white. They have been afforded the luxury of living in a world which caters to them. Turn on ANY tv channel and you will see what I mean.
Read any newspaper and you will see what I mean.
Look at any fashion magazine and you will see what I mean.
How lovely is it to live in a world where you are the default!!!
Your blog challenges them. ( something they hate and are not accustomed to)
You blog educates them. ( how dare you! you are black, nonetheless)
You blog opens their minds. ( sort of. After all, white knows everything)
You blog dispells myths. ( kind of. After all, white is right)
What you are reading, sadly, in these comments by some white folks is nothing but underlying fear!
Fear that after 450 plus years, we are smart enough, educated enough, free thinking enough to say to them : I know exactly who you are.
I’ve come to a realization that whites will never be rehabilitated.
It’s impossible.
They have been spoon fed lies their whole lives and now it’s too late.
Maybe some of them are aware of this. But they will never go against the herd. That would be unthinkable for they would lose their lovely privilege. Friends would stray, families would dismember, jobs would be lost, homes would depreciate, lives would be ruined.
Keep up the good work.
And never doubt yourself.
That’s what they want.
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Sorry, I mean y-o-u-r blog, not y-o-u blog.
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“Fear that after 450 plus years, we are smart enough, educated enough, free thinking enough to say to them : I know exactly who you are.”
I would have preferred if you had just learned to run a city.
http://www.marchandmeffre.com/detroit/
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Thank you, old chap…for being predictable.
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Your blog is good.
I’m an Asian who lived in a part of Africa that was then under British colonial rule. An experience which can create havoc in one’s mind. Half of me still wants to lick white ass while the other wants to kick it.
There was segregation everywhere. On the buses, in cinemas and theaters, at sports. The big hotels were for whites only. When the Africans were given independence the whites turned around and blamed us for all the trouble!. In my childhood I have seen Africans rounded up by white policemen and whipped.
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Truthbetold,
I like your response to this post.
Also, this is one of the most straight forward and well-written posts on this blog.
Yes, to turn a blind eye to racism would be a tragedy and is in itself racism, which is why it should be pointed out and discussed at length and not just swept under the rug like most people do.
Also, to be fair is to listen to both sides of a story or points of view from both sides.
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Hmmmm, I often wonder about some of the pictures on this websitem and why they are chosen…..This time there is a picture of a cream cracker or is it a TUC biscuit.
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I ❤ you Abagond<3 Thank you and many more thanks. Please continue on writing whatever you like on your blog. Your blog is a breath of fresh air to my soul!
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You’re not racist. It looks to me like you just wanna discuss a strange, creepy, and illogical dynamic that has driven relationships and politics for time out of mind. I recently moved to Kansas, the home of Brown vs. the Board of Education, and was STUNNED at what I call the “monocultural reality” here; especially the separation between reservations and everyone else.There is very little understanding between different cultures at all. In fact, a lot of children at my kids’ school had never even seen a person with an olive complexion, except on TV! (Hahaha……black hair and all, my daughter will probably be the valedictorian of her class, though!)
Keep promoting healthy discussion, and ignore the lunatics. I put a link to your blog on my blog.
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answer to your question: No.
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Lara,
Seggregation: WHITE WEAKNESS.
One Drop Rule: WHITE WEAKNESS.
Lynching of Black women and children: WHITE WEAKNESS.
Trying to prevent Black education: WHITE WEAKNESS
White and Black Churches: WHITE WEAKNESS
What was the nice thing white folks did ?
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Nothing wrong with the blog, IMHO.
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Hell no. I’ve learned a lot by coming here. And those who whine and complain this blog is racist, even though it’s not, get a life.
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Whats the saying? You can only please ALL of the people some of the time and SOME of the people all of the time.
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@Lara
I generally think discussing race with black people is a waste of time.
Says the perpetual, almost professional time ‘waster’ herself!!
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If they have not lived it, it stands to reason why they don’t understand it or see it. It also stands to reason the brainwashing that most whites are under the influence of, and the fear that they live with.
Your blog is excellent. Most people, Black, White, and other, seem to be so dimwitted, that they can not see beyond their own little world. I am amazed that most people that I know personally, are oblivious to the prejudice and injustice that is prevalent all around them. It is as if their heads are stuck in the sand.
But what really troubles me is this; we excel everywhere we go. We are an awesome people, but we don’t seem to see it ourselves. Others know we are, but refuse to admit it. If we, as a people, banded together, we could change our situation ourselves, irregardless of what any other group of folks say or think. We are our own worse enemy, because we do not stand united.
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And to be honest, Is your blog racist?
In absolute terms somewhat: You give Afrocentrists too much credit, promote the judging of women’s beauty by some perverted white standard to a degree, you allow outspoken racist comments, but it has to be granted, that your racist thingies now and then even out, to a great degree.
In relative terms: not at all, for a US-based-blog not avoiding race-related issues,.
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This sums it up for me:
“I do think that experiencing racism tends to be a worse experience than actually talking about racism or race. So as a college professor, I feel like talking always brings us closer to understanding rather than dividing us. It can be tough. It can be a little nauseating. We don’t always have the right vocabulary to talk across our differences, but the talking is always better than the ignoring.” ~ Melissa Harris-Perry, PhD, Tulane University.
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I normally don’t comment, but this blog isn’t racist. I’ve learned so much about racism ever since I’ve been here and on your tumblr. Keep it up!
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@ Healthy 1
“But what really troubles me is this; we excel everywhere we go. We are an awesome people, but we don’t seem to see it ourselves. Others know we are, but refuse to admit it. If we, as a people, banded together, we could change our situation ourselves, irregardless of what any other group of folks say or think. We are our own worse enemy, because we do not stand united.”
Spot on!
I just finished reading for the 100th time, Brainwashed, by Tom Burrell.
He explains this to a tee.
Malcolm X said it best, ” My, brothers, you’ve been had.”
We are trying to change ourselves…we are now mostly middle class and better educated than ever before.
But…systematic racism still keeps us down.
It is seen:
When you want to borrow money / take out a loan at the bank.
When you buy a house and where you buy a house
In high interest rates despite good credit
On job interviews even if you are the most qualified candidate
On the salary you are offered despite being the most experienced
The way you are treated when you go to the hospital for an injury
In the way we are last hired, first fired
How slowly your home takes to gain value despite many upgrades
In the way you are treated while at a university getting an education
In the way many black men are arrested and thrown in prison for NONviolent crimes…
We have been raised and geared to be failures in this country. By the very system who preaches the American Dream.
My greates fear is that it will never end.
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“Trying to prevent Black education: WHITE WEAKNESS”
Most blacks don’t like school. We were probably trying to let you do something you enjoyed more.
“White and Black Churches: WHITE WEAKNESS”
What?
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” Hatred is the coward’s revenge for being intimidated.”
George B. Shaw
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Though I am new to your blog, and often find it difficult to reconcile the images you use with a desire to self-actualize as a Black person, I believe that your thoughts are relevant and necessary. It is important to remember that “whiteness” has been universally used as a tool of oppression – for centuries! It is understandable that some may find it difficult to identify the ways in which it has informed, created, and directed ALL facets of WESTERN culture and identity. I am a Black Jamaican woman, raised in the Rastafarian family…yet I can still identify aspects of “whiteness” in my identity performance!
Those whites, or non-whites, who find the blog racist ought to evaluate their own identities against the representations of self-hood in our society. An honest and thorough evaluation will reveal the truth…which is always difficult to face.
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Abagond-
Your blog is not a racist blog. Your blog offers non-white people the opportunity to contradict the barrage of misinformation being actively transmitted throughout our global society about blackness/whiteness/race/ and racism.
It is the white people that come to this blog, and inject their latest version/refinement of racism, who make the experience…racist.
@ Lara-
“I think any white person reading it will be in for a rude awakening, they will be surprised as to how black people really think. ”
I would turn that around and say: Any white person reading this blog will learn how whiteness is EXPERIENCED by non-white people…in America, and could choose to take the opportunity to understand the impact of their actions, and actively change them…or not.
Coming here to “debate” or defend your actions, and attempts to convince non-white people of your “exceptionality” is futile.
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@Truthbetold:
The list of examples you provided of the more ‘subtle’ forms of racism are spot-on. They are some of the things many white people say they don’t ‘see.”
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@ Nom de Plume:
I saw her interviewed the other night on the Colbert Report, and agree wholeheartedly with that comment:
Keeping ones head in the sand doesn’t work. Ignoring racism and refusing to talk about it doesn’t work. Exposing things to the light of day, no matter how ugly they are, is the first step.
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I think one of the weaknesses of this blog, is the unwillingness to address interracial relationships, and how society views them.
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@ Sepultura13
How?
How do we get to that step when others don’t want to crawl first?
I suspect that the reason Abagond wrote this post is not to challenge the ignorant whites who come here but to challenge himself.
How do we expose the truth when it is so carefully hidden? Most whites are so far gone, they don’t even realize it.
I knew from I was a child that something was deeply wrong with most whites. I thought it was just being privileged.
As a grown woman, I suspect a moral defect. Something so evil, twisted and ingrained that there cannot be a point of return.
Some want to change but not badly enough to be on the other side of the chopping block.
Others feel that there is no need for change, they are perfect creatures.
Others, like some of the commentators here, are happy being malignant.
Like a cancer, they spread their disease where ever they go.
I feel that the only way this will ever end is if God himself wipes the slate clean.
A bit dramatic, yes, but perhaps the truth.
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@ Nom de Plume
Be sickened.
Embrace it.
Then take a spoonful of Pepto Bismol.
This blog is an eye opener to the secret minds of most whites.
When you look at them shopping, going to church to praise God, taking their kids to school, donating money to charity in the name of Christianity, remember that they could be the ones posting on this blog.
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If you have a huge picture of a cracker at the beginning of this blog entry, than yes. Been called one plenty of times. Like when my Fulanese coworker came on the block and the inmates made fun of his accent, called him a “spearchukah”, told him he lived in a mud hut, and made monkey noises. I told them “This man came from the Third World and is putting himself through college. You were born in the greatest nation on earth with the most opportunity and the best you can do is get locked up.” Man, the vitriol that followed “CRAKUH! YOU A RACISS! AH F*CK YOU UP CRAKUH”.
What’s paradoxical about this blog is the use of the term “people of color” as if all nonwhites were united together when so many American-born Blacks are often violently racist against West Indians, African immigrants, Middle Easterners, Asians, Asian Americans, and Latinos.
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@Lara
I think one of the weaknesses of this blog, is the unwillingness to address interracial relationships, and how society views them.
I dont recall abagond being ‘unwilling’ to address interactial relationships. Just search amongst his blogs and you will see many discussions devoted to/relating to this topic. In the main, genuine commenters try to respect the rules of the blog and stay focused on the discussion in hand. To continually and perversley do otherwise for nothing more than petty showmanship is to derail the conversation and is annoying at best!
BTW, considering what you said in your comment above re Emmett Till do you honestly think that you are open minded, rationale (and sane enough) to be discussing the topic or IR? This clearly has no relevance in your day to day existence, particularly as you said earlier you generally think that:
….discussing race with black people is a waste of time.
Finally, bearing in mind the 2 comments addressed here, and the fact that you concur that this blog is ‘unfair’ to WP, it will be irrelevant what the subject matter is – in your mind abagond and all the black commenters who challenge your comments will still be treating you ‘unfairly’.
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Fulck yes you are a racist, and so is your blog. PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That’s why it is in dire need of opposing viewpoints, which you yourself NEVER provide. If I were you I would slap myself in the face.
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Lynching and interracial relationships are off topic here unless directly tied to the post.
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What happened to all the good comments?
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The only thing that makes your blog racist is that you seem to believe whites are somehow especially amoral and bad, when in fact they are not. History and dumb luck may have granted them more opportunity to visit a higher level of misery upon the worlds inhabitants, however there exists no dark impulse , no level of depravity, no willingness to create suffering in WP that has not also shown itself to exist in the minds and hearts
of every other racial group on this planet. The man who kills with a sword is no more evil than a man who uses a stone. And yet, you continually assert that whites are MORALLY inferior. An assertion of inferiority based on race is racism as you define it. Such an assertion could be and has been used to promote genocide. You are racist in the most direct and fundamental sense.
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@ Lara
I deleted your comments because they were off topic. If I have to babysit my blog to make sure you do not go round derailing threads, then I will simply ban you and call it a day.
You can directly comment on the post or another person’s comment. You do not get to pick topics out of thin air and start talking about them. You do not get to talk about things I declare off topic. I like to keep threads at least somewhat on topic.
If you want to talk about whatever you want, please do it on the Open Thread. Or, better yet, type what you want to talk about into Google followed by “abagond” and you might find a post on the subject. I have a post on Emmett Till, for example, and quite a few on interracial relationships.
I advise you to review my comment policy:
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No your blog is not racist. I have not read anything in your blog that asserts the superiority of Blacks or other POC. I think the reason many whites get offended is because they’re not used to POC analyzing their behavior and calling them to the carpet on it. It is all right if THEY point out the bad behavior of “others” but they don’t like the same treatment.
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Overall, I think racism is discussed more openly here than any other blog I can think of. I find myself constantly thinking about your posts and/or comments, and the conversation is lively and never boring. Sometimes I feel that an idea or comment might be racist, but what’s great about Abagond is that a person can disagree or challenge an idea without being humiliated or personally attacked.
I do think that sometimes when whiteness is discussed that there is projection on what white people think or feel, and I also think that many white people do not have the power ascribed to them here, and I also think that white people do not have access to the experience of Black and people of color that would allow white people to feel empathy.
The crimes that entire white people are accused of seem too broad, it’s like saying that all white people are teabaggers.
I do think that Lara is totally lacking in empathy and morals, and especially her comment about Emmit Till, today. For me, it is sickening to hear someone dismiss so cavalierly anyone’s murder but especially a child.
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I am a white person who works primary with African Americans at her job. I read this blog regularly because I find it useful to hear other voices that weren’t really part of my experience growing up in a small overwhelmingly white suburb. I want to stay on top of hot button issues so that I don’t make mistakes and offend colleagues by accident. Sometimes things I read here hurt, but I would rather be hurt and hear the anger/issues than keep things glossed over and hidden.
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I don’t think the blog is itself racist, though I do think that a number of central points made by the author and commenters haven’t been sufficiently argued.
A few of these include common types include:
“White Americans have better performance in some metric than such-and-such group of non-white Americans, therefore the cause must be racism” (examples: income, educational attainment)
“A broad societal trend has occurred that hasn’t benefited black people, so the cause must be racism” (example: “white flight”)
“Social pathologies among non-white Americans must be the result of prior discrimination.”
Also, many posts appear to be descriptive without any effort made to the prescriptive.
Blog post: “Here’s a situation that sucks.”
Commenter: “OK, then how would you advise people to overcome that?”
Everyone: [crickets]
And perhaps the greatest of all inconsistent topics which has arisen here-and-there is what I call the “Agency Problem”.
Do people have individual agency, and if so, how much?
For example: if one argues that social pathologies in the black community (such as the low on-time HS graduation rate, greater likelihood of student misbehavior in poor schools, and high out-of-wedlock birth rate) is solely the result of slavery / Jim Crow, then you are stating that people lack individual agency.
This is a common assertion in posts and comments, and criticisms of it are denounced as “blaming the victim”.
If you hold this view, then such powerless people (who “can’t help it”) will lack the capacity to better their circumstances on their own. If you hold this view, you ought to also be arguing that the only way to fix it is to enforce draconian contraception and educational laws which deprive people of their individual liberty if they don’t conform to a high standard.
If people are powerless (and can’t be expected to help themselves), then the only way to support them is by force. If you find such a use of force to be odious (as I would), then you can’t also argue that people are powerless in their circumstances, unless you’re fine with them being doomed to suffering in perpetuity.
Well, are people powerless or aren’t they? If you decide that people aren’t entirely powerless, then one has to have the moral courage to hold them accountable for their circumstances. You can’t have it both ways.
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@Vanishing point, if Truthbetold examples are given one does not need further access to the experience of Black and people of color that would allow white people to feel empathy. Normal intelligence, imagination and the capacity for empathy will do.
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@vanishing point:
‘Overall, I think racism is discussed more openly here than any other blog I can think of.’
—
I agree. Where else can race be openly discussed to this degree among people of different ethnicities (especially among blacks and whites)? Nowhere that I can think of. Not work, church, school, committees, meetings, etc. There are many people don’t socialize with people who don’t look like them, let alone discuss anything racial. I find it refreshing, and yes, even cathartic at times. I always learn something, even from the unkindest of comments.
***************
‘…but what’s great about Abagond is that a person can disagree or challenge an idea without being humiliated or personally attacked.”‘
—
I’ve lurked on all kinds of blogs where comments are deleted, not because they are off topic or because the commenters are trolls. They were deleted because the commenters offered opposing view points. I know this because I’ve seen bloggers admit to doing it. So in essence you have blogs where everybody agrees. Pretty boring stuff, IMO.
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@Randy, please stop thinking in twos, setting up strawmen, and depicting a high out-of-wedlock birth rate, as a problem in itself.
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@ Lara
Normally, I believe in “free speech”, but you are just trolling in the worst way. You continually post off-topic inflammatory non-sense and seem to thrive off the attention it brings you. You seriously need the ban hammer!
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@jay: “You were born in the greatest nation on earth with the most opportunity”
And that sentence alone tells everyone that you have been fooled lock stock and barrel. You have a long way of understanding your own country, state and nation. Veeeeeery long way.
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@ Lara
Just answer THIS question. Does your question pertain to the topic at hand (is this blog racist)?
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This blog is very racist against white people.
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We’ve already established that.
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For what it’s worth, I’m white and I don’t think you are racist at all. I think you’re just honest and the people living in denial don’t like to hear it.
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@SomeGuy:
Thanks.
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Is this blog racist?
My answer: Somewhat, yes.
We, as human beings, and especially as Americans (in my case anyhow) cannot realistically and frankly talk or write about race without our own pre-programmed racism bubbling to the surface. We have ALL been infected with the disease of racism. Mostly, it is a matter of to what degree and how much you acknowledge and try to break its influence.
However, I think a better question would be to ask: “Has this blog, despite its flaws, benefited those seeking to understand and defeat racism?”
I would have to say yes, particularly in my case. I find, although at times crude, Abagond brings me insights to the disease of racism that I have overlooked myself. I can also see, from the comments, that other people feel as I do. We are growing here, not reinforcing destructive paradigms.
We must all remember, the process of de-brainwashing is neither pretty nor pleasant, but it is necessary if we wish to survive as a species. We cannot continue like this. Eventually, the tension will build to a lethal conclusion and with the weapons that humans have today, we can’t afford such a war.
So, even though this blog may not be perfect, it does the job and that is really all that matters.
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@ John
“The only thing that makes your blog racist is that you seem to believe whites are somehow especially amoral and bad, when in fact they are not. History and dumb luck may have granted them more opportunity to visit a higher level of misery upon the worlds inhabitants, however there exists no dark impulse , no level of depravity, no willingness to create suffering in WP that has not also shown itself to exist in the minds and hearts
of every other racial group on this planet.”
John, really?
Dumb Luck?
Really?
No depravity?
Honestly?
Luck had nothing to do with the fact that whites devised a plan to capture free men in another country, to bring them here in chains, to work for free under the threat of death, to rape their women, to kill their children and CONTINUE to perpetuate a plan based on racist beliefs.
Sorry, old boy…
You have been fed a mountain of lies of which you’ve grown fat and round if you believe that.
To accept that another man is your inferior is the very essence of depravity.
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To all the white commentators:
This blog is made up of free thinkers by a free thinker.
If you can’t handle the truth, don’t come here.
Go back to your bland lives with your thoughts about how the world revolves around you.
If for some reason you find our discussion enlightening…
Please stay, with an open mind and learn that you are the ones that made this system what it is.
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@ some guy,
” I would have to say yes, particularly in my case. I find, although at times crude, Abagond brings me insights to the disease of racism that I have overlooked myself. I can also see, from the comments, that other people feel as I do. We are growing here, not reinforcing destructive paradigms.”
This blog has continued to blow me away.
And yes, we feel the same as each other but are incapable or unwilling to do anything about it.
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Truthbetold says,
Aba,
I don’t find this blog racist.
I find it to be the refreshing truth.
Most whites will never own up to their racism, overt or covert, unless it’s in the deepest, darkest part of their dungeons.
To admit their true selves is to admit their lives have been a lie.
What an earth shattering revelation that would be!
The reason why some whites, and you know EXACTLY who you are, come on this blog and spew their brand of ingorance / hatred / fear is because they know deep down that the words you write are the dreaded truth.
Falseness is a trait that is predominately white. They have been afforded the luxury of living in a world which caters to them. Turn on ANY tv channel and you will see what I mean.
Read any newspaper and you will see what I mean.
Look at any fashion magazine and you will see what I mean.
How lovely is it to live in a world where you are the default!!!
Your blog challenges them. ( something they hate and are not accustomed to)
You blog educates them. ( how dare you! you are black, nonetheless)
You blog opens their minds. ( sort of. After all, white knows everything)
You blog dispells myths. ( kind of. After all, white is right)
What you are reading, sadly, in these comments by some white folks is nothing but underlying fear!
Fear that after 450 plus years, we are smart enough, educated enough, free thinking enough to say to them : I know exactly who you are.
I’ve come to a realization that whites will never be rehabilitated.
It’s impossible.
They have been spoon fed lies their whole lives and now it’s too late.
Maybe some of them are aware of this. But they will never go against the herd. That would be unthinkable for they would lose their lovely privilege. Friends would stray, families would dismember, jobs would be lost, homes would depreciate, lives would be ruined.
Keep up the good work.
And never doubt yourself.
That’s what they want.
laromana says,
Truthbetold,
Your EXCELLENT comments live up to your name and I wholeheartedly agree with them.
Abagond,
Keep up the great job of presenting the TRUTH about racism in a FAIR manner to EVERYONE who wants to HONESTLY examine race relations in America and how they can be improved.
MinneB says,
Abagond-
Your blog is not a racist blog. Your blog offers non-white people the opportunity to contradict the barrage of misinformation being actively transmitted throughout our global society about blackness/whiteness/race/ and racism.
It is the white people that come to this blog, and inject their latest version/refinement of racism, who make the experience…racist.
@ Lara-
“I think any white person reading it will be in for a rude awakening, they will be surprised as to how black people really think. ”
I would turn that around and say: Any white person reading this blog will learn how whiteness is EXPERIENCED by non-white people…in America, and could choose to take the opportunity to understand the impact of their actions, and actively change them…or not.
Coming here to “debate” or defend your actions, and attempts to convince non-white people of your “exceptionality” is futile.
laromana says,
MinneB,
EXCELLENT comments/response to L.
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This blog is one of the smartest and civil that i have seen online. My only problem is that it gives space to trolls too freely. A little enlightened despotism wouldn’t hurt in my humble opinion.
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Not a convincing imitation of stupid-racist-exploiterish?
Racism hurts “White” people, by well justifying for Afro-Americans the survival tactic of considering every light face as a potential attacker. As such it makes the working environment less safe, as the employed may feel less safe and is thus more likely to make mistakes, feel insulted or attacked or to get ill, and that is bad for the economy.
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Abagond, your blog is surely needed in this day and age when racism is more out in the open. You use it to tell the truth. You use it to express your thoughts and research. You use it not to make white people feel good, but to make them think. You have no idea how much you’ve influenced me and other bloggers.
Lara,
I only hope one day Abagond bans you because frankly, no one with intelligence can stand you. You are just a white person you hates blacks more than you love yourself. Do us all a favor, get out, get help, and get your own blog. That way you can write about whatever you want. You will get more people backing your ideas there than coming to someone else’s blog whom you dislike and get owned over and over again.
Dave,
Is it me or does it seem like we have a colony of trolls named Dave? You can follow my advice to Lara.
Jay From Philly,
See my replies for Lara and Dave.
Truthbetold,
Your response at the beginning was spot on.
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Teddy:
The out-of-wedlock birthrate roughly, but reasonably correlates to educational attainment, crime rate, poverty level, and other social metrics. This is generally not considered controversial.
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I love this blog!
For those who don’t know, I don’t believe black people (or POC) can be racist.
Angry, bitter, bigoted, hateful, evil, biased and these sort of things – YES!
However, these are mainly our REACTIONS to being underprivileged, assigned and held to the lowest socio-economic rung – and kept there to be continually mistreated in a myriad of ever changing ways.. ways that Abagond relentlessly attempts to allow any and all uninformed readers that come here, to see. (and not come here to argue with an absolutely closed mind).
Someone recently posted that he took exception with Abagond because he said or implied that whites are morally inferior – or especially evil. Well, maybe that person doesn’t know history as it relates to us (and “others” 400-500 years of it) as well as we do. I’d like to think that if he really did, he might understand and even agree with that point.. (whiteness messes people up – BIG TIME …) yeah, that’s what I’D LIKE to think – but experience suggests otherwise! Nonetheless, I’m thankful for the few “traitors” to whiteness that dwell here. Your presence inspires a little hope that there may one day be GREATER NUMBERS of folks like you!
This blog provides so much knowledge and insight about the black experience in America – it’s incredible. Anyone with a heart, soul/spirit who’s willing to learn about how/why/what’s going on with the “other side” could spend a very long time here reading hundreds/thousands of posts and gaining understanding – if they choose to.
Abagond, also is to be commended for his patient long-suffering, as we all see how well he tolerates fools and trolls. I couldn’t…!
This is an extraordinary “ANTI-RACIST” blog. It’s too bad everyone can’t see that.
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Still not a real problem, just something correlating with a few.
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My xx:19:45 comment was @Randy, my motivation to react to it has to do with the use of Out-of-Wedlock-Is-Bad as an argument of the adoption industry, and that links directly with the USA as a country importing and exporting black (and other) children for adoption.
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Lara is now banned. She continues to go off topic even after warning her. The comment that got her banned was about BDSM and certain commenters. On this thread.
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Good riddance to bad rubbish. 😀
Bye Lara. Don’t let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya. 😉
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@ Proud
Most whites are unwilling to admit that the division they created is now the division they are running away from.
It’s amazing how some whites come on here with accusations of racism…only to say racist things themselves!
That’s why they get so heated when something we say rocks them to the core.
The truth hurts.
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@Abagond
What is BDSM? Can you give me a hint?
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So who the hell am I supposed to troll?
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My dear Abagond – an unequivocal, NO! I’m so pleased I found your blog through Ankh over “At the Bar.” I’ve been a fan ever since.
In 500 words or less (I don’t think folk know justhow hard that is to do!), you continuously write revealing, thought-provoking, enlightening posts that lay bare the things that continue to either be discussed in hushed tones, or not in “mixed company” (as we say in the South), or go unsaid altogether- just about everywhere!
“An assertion of inferiority based on race is racism as you define it.”
That whiteness always seems to conveniently forget the element of “power” to materially affect another’s very existence” – when it yells “Racism/Racist” to us Others – is wa-a-a-y more telling than they know.
Hell, if we had that kind of power, or if it were simply and “Agency problem,” or a matter of “allowing white people to feel empathy” (as if permission is needed to treat another humanely) – there’d have been no need for the Emancipation Proclamation, the 14th and 15th Amendments, the Civil RIghts Act, the Voting RIghts Act, Affirmative Action, etc., etc., etc.!
And yes, quiet as it’s kept, even the poorest of whites wield “power,” manifested in the simplest of phrases (one I’ve heard all my life) – “Well at least I’m not a nigger!”
Abagond, don’t sweat the small minds. Know that, as long as you keep doing what you do, there’ll always be plenty of folk listening (and lurking like me!).
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As most commentators have observed posting in this thread you would be hard pressed to find a similar in depth and informative blog on the internet discussing Racism. So credit must go to Abagond for compiling such a useful resource on a subject most people think they know something about but in reality know sweet FA!
We can all speak from our personal experiences whether Black, white, non-white, a person of colour or however you see your-self. This means we can all have an opinion based on our personal experience.The difficulty with holding an opinion like this is that it does not necessarily cancel out someone else’s opinion with a different experience.
So for example: Even though many commentators here (irrespective of colour designation) have argued their experience of Racism as a real, pernicious and ever present reality. Others have tried to argue of its irrelevance or non-existence, as a reality in today’s society.
Both opinions or view points may well be true from your perspective But,…THEY DO NOT CANCEL EACH OTHER OUT! Because those are just dealing with opinions and we can all learn from each others experience…if we are willing and so desire…!
But.. “Racism” goes beyond just anecdotal, personal experience. Its a collective experience of thoughts, words and beaviour translated through a belief system of white superiority/Black & non-white inferiority
Something Truthbetold conveniently outlined in his comment:
“…It is seen:
When you want to borrow money / take out a loan at the bank.
When you buy a house and where you buy a house
In high interest rates despite good credit
On job interviews even if you are the most qualified candidate
On the salary you are offered despite being the most experienced
The way you are treated when you go to the hospital for an injury
In the way we are last hired, first fired
How slowly your home takes to gain value despite many upgrades
In the way you are treated while at a university getting an education
In the way many black men are arrested and thrown in prison for NONviolent crimes…
Now, again, you may want to argue that you’ve never had to experience any of the above but IT DOES NOT CANCEL OUT THOSE PEOPLE WHO HAVE!!!
So if you do not believe in a system of – white superiority/Black & non-white inferiority – then you might be open to listen to other peoples experiences. But… of course, if you deny or do believe in a system of – white superiority/Black & non-white inferiority – then you may be closed to listening to such whining.experiences..!!!
But again it still cannot cancel out the experience…
In my view,.. if you do NOT believe, then you are NOT Racist but if you deny or do then you should consider your self Racist!
On that basis I would say “overall” this blog is NOT racist. I say “overall” because although Abagond can be credited for raising topics on Racism repeatedly in a public forum, like this, for serious discussion. There still remains an inconsistency in the way his own view points on Racism are presented. This is why someone can often make the following observation and it can go unnoticed or ignored:
But then, Abagond. You have never denied being a Racist. So there would appear to be an inconsistency here if you were to defend this blog as not being racist???
Just my thoughts….
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Lara is now banned. She continues to go off topic even after warning her. The comment that got her banned was about BDSM and certain commenters. On this thread.
This calls for a celebration!
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Meant to add this interesting link on white culture (as related by Pat Buchanan) to my comment:
http://friendsofjustice.wordpress.com/2012/01/11/pat-buchanan-may-be-finished-at-msnbc/
While he may not speak for ALL whites, I’d say he pretty well confirms much of what you write about MOST! – back to lurking…:-)
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@NickyHP
Hail sister.
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@Deb:
I heard about Pat Buchanan’s book, and have noticed that he has been visibly absent from the airwaves. Thanks for the link.
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@Teddy:
Not a convincing imitation of stupid-racist-exploiterish?
Racism hurts “White” people, by well justifying for Afro-Americans the survival tactic of considering every light face as a potential attacker. As such it makes the working environment less safe, as the employed may feel less safe and is thus more likely to make mistakes, feel insulted or attacked or to get ill, and that is bad for the economy.
—-
Point taken.
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I don’t care if white people think this blog is racist. It’s the white gaze Toni Morrison learned to avoid (thanks for posting the Toni Morrison quotes). That glaze is always there, but we can ignore it.
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To intellectually shut down notions of white supremacy is to be viewed as a pariah or racist (LOL) in america
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“For a post to be racist it would have to say or assume that one race is naturally better than another. People who call me racist never seem to be able to show that.”
I did show it, and as kwamala said it was somehow ignored. Abagond, you don’t use the accepted anti-racist “prejudice plus power definition, you use the dictionary version. By THAT version, YOUR definition of racism, you are racist because you believe whites to be morally inferior. So basically if you don’t want to admit that this blog is racist, you just need to adopt the prejudice plus power definition. If you do that, you can write about the corrupt, evil, demonic white man all day and never think twice.
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Of course it is. You and other posters continually try to generalize whites by the color of their skin, just as you complain that whites of done to you. Even people who have never posted anything derogatory get calls to be banned, which is simply hypocritical in the extreme. God forbid that I should shake you out of your firmly held conclusions about whites in general. As an example:
Truthbetold says “Luck had nothing to do with the fact that whites devised a plan to capture free men in another country”.
Well, in the first place the capturing was done by other black men. For another slavery was eradicated in Africa, if it has been eradicated at all, occurred after the American civil war. For a third, while some white participated and used slaves, many other helped free them, and died fighting to end the American slave system. While there were unique things about the American system, in the context of the rest of the planet slavery was a common phenomenon. The Atlantic slave trade was in a customer of a pre-existing African slave trade, and likely grew to be the best customer, of that I don’t know.
The “luck” that Europeans had was primarily an accident of geographic location. A relatively cold climate forced urbanization as the population grew. Virtually unlimited access to the oceans allowed and indeed demanded a sea-faring civilization develop for trade. Limited land area for the growing population forced innovation in agriculture which led to innovation in other areas and the industrial revolution.
Deb says:
They have power only if you let them rent space in your head. If anything those people are universally despised by the vast majority of whites in part because of such attitudes. It’s easy to see that this is so even in mainstream culture. Whites have even adopted on black name for this subculture.
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Is this blog racist?
In a word no. No need for justifications. Anyone thinking such is either a white racist or a kerchief head. It is succinct and to the point unlike many of the other blogs out there which post reams of garbage and hyperbole. I also like the fact that it is 500 words more or less. The best writers write succinctly and can convey ideas so that most can understand what it is they are writing. Those that profess they don’t are just plain obtuse and are coming here with their own agenda. Most of these people are hilarious if anything, and should be roundly mocked, and or, ignored.
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Dear Abagond,
I am white and I LOVE your blog. It is NOT racist toward white people. That’s an excuse of white people who only look “at the world through a white person’s eyes”, i.e. “white gaze” (as I read here).
Your blog has helped open my eyes to how (some) black people think, (I’m saying some just because I don’t want to say that all black people agree with you, though I suspect most do).
I am going to school in Detroit to be a social worker. My internship is with the Detroit Public Schools. I hope to continue working as a social worker with the mostly, black children in the Detroit schools (never as a CPS worker!).
When I decided to become a social worker I vowed to work with people who most need help. To me, those are the people who have been the most disenfranchised in our society. I don’t have to go far to find those people; my African American neighbors in Detroit. I hope ALL of these Detroiters will become indignant about how they’ve been treated!
Thank you and your (enlightened) contributors!
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@Dave Lister:
Well, in the first place the capturing was done by other black men. For another slavery was eradicated in Africa, if it has been eradicated at all, occurred after the American civil war. For a third, while some white participated and used slaves, many other helped free them, and died fighting to end the American slave system. While there were unique things about the American system, in the context of the rest of the planet slavery was a common phenomenon. The Atlantic slave trade was in a customer of a pre-existing African slave trade, and likely grew to be the best customer, of that I don’t know.
—-
I provided the link below because some of the points you make fall under the list of “Weak Moral Excuses.”
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Nom De Plume – what exactly did I excuse? In fact, those making the moral excuses are those who fail to acknowledge the African part of the Atlantic slave trade.
Which portion of what was posted do you think is untrue?
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Dave Lister,
Let me ask you one question and be honest, do you complain about the racism against blacks in Stormfront and/or Chimpout?
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Honestly, I believe that those people belong in prison, so no, I don’t. If anything else they are completely insane and belong in a mental hospital. I absolutely don’t share goals with them, I MAY share goals with some here, but am rapidly losing hope on that score and may simply return to dejected apathy on this topic.
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No. But I do think and feel that when anybody goes and try to explain the relationship between blacks, Asians and/or other minorities in relation to whites and nothing positive is said then yeah the “you’re a racist” card is bound to be tossed in the pile. But that is only an attempt to stop the conversation and return to the majority’s perspective of things.
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Dave Lister,
So, you don’t go to those white supremacist whites to argue against their racism against blacks, but you come here to argue against the so-called racism against whites.
This tells me a lot, a whole lot.
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@ Kwamla
I am racist. In the post I said:
I have been working on unbrainwashing myself and still have a ways to go. I know that.
But the post is not about that level of racism but whether the philosophical direction of the blog as a whole is racist, Whether it is fundamentally flawed in that way. Like what people mean when they call it a black Stormfront.
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I think this blog is important because it brings up things and sparks discussion. Even when some troll keeps going on, even they force us others to think, re-think and then think some more. Ok, enuff is enuff, but the way I see this is that this is the reason abagond allows some of them wallow and go on. They are our opponents. Even when their arguments are those old ones, heard thousands of times, they force us to re-visit those arguments and check our own convictions. And that is a good thing.
The only way forward and to clear our minds is trough the exchange of ideas and thoughts. I don’t know everything, nobody does, so when we discuss all the stuff here, we find new perspectives, ideas, insights, experiences etc. Even the most annoying racist here can push us forward, can make us see that, ok, there is a long way to go. And all the time, bit by bit, we all are doing it. Besides, sometimes this is just frigging funny. I seriously think herneith is blessed sometimes.
As for deleting comments, banning some, this is abagonds blog. We are visitors. If somebody behaves bad enough in my house, he/she won’t be there for too long. I have no abagonds patience.
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@ John
I was not ignoring you. I just have not had a chance to comment at length earlier. Also, on a post like this I like to let the comments run their course for a while and let people speak their minds without me affecting things too much.
I do not think whites are morally inferior but I do think white RACISTS are. Unfortunately most whites are racist. That comes from how whites as a whole have (not) dealt with the crimes of their past and present. White people on this very blog are STILL excusing slavery, nearly 150 years after Emancipation. STILL as in just six hours ago (just scroll up to 01:38). That just blows my mind.
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@ Happiness
In America the object pictured at top is called a “cracker”:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cracker_(food)
But “cracker” is also a racist slur against whites (probably from the whips they used to crack):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cracker_(pejorative)
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@ proudchocolategirl
Excellent point: What racism my posts do have is probably more against blacks than whites, probably like 80/20. American culture is extremely pro-white and anti-black and that is hard to unlearn.
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No brothawolf, I came here to see if there was any common ground with you, AS I SAID. Were the words too big? I am not here to argue against racism against whites, and I haven’t. I’ve pointed out in the course of trying to see if there is common ground that what I am seeing is racist. I have no common ground with the KKK, Nazis or Stormfront, and I don’t think there will ever be any. Just as always, you read what you want, and make up the rest. I can put you in the same hopeless category as they are – those too lost in their own mythology about race and the past to ever change going forward. Too eager to assign moral values to people you don’t know based on what you think they should feel guilty about or think because of the actions of other people with the same color skin. THAT IS WHAT THEY DO.
If there is common ground, it sure is hard to find here. It might not exist. That would be sad.
What crimes of my past, abagond? Are you a believer in reincarnation? I haven’t committed any crimes other than some pot smoking but that was 25 years ago. I also haven’t seen anyone excuse slavery. The issue like so many others was a complicated world problem at the time however much you want to simplify it to your usual “white bad, black good” thinking. That kind of thinking will get you nowhere slowly. If you think all whites need to to “deal with the crimes of their past and present”, from someone on the Mayflower to a recent immigrant from Norway, you are never going to get any traction at all. It simply is not ever going to happen. E.v.e.r.
Now, if you want to actually go after the people causing the problems now, I’m all for it and I’ll help. Somehow I think you’d rather wallow in the tales of the 1800’s.
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@ Dave Lister
You excused slavery yourself on this very thread:
These are stock MORAL excuses White Americans give for slavery these days. It is almost like you are speaking from a script.
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@ Dave Lister
As close-minded as you are you will never ever find it.
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On some level he is excusing yes but he is also trying to point out that their is much more shared guilt here than black people like to admit to.
It also seems like they don’t like to admit that white fought and died to keep it from happening or end it. Not as many as should have but at least a few did.
Yeah white people excuse racism, but so to do black people as well.
And while Abagond maybe subtle racist against black people I can’t recall him ever straight up posting anything like “black people have cracks in their souls of immorality” or some such thing.
I mean you can say that you don’t mean most white people are racist or morally inferior, that you only mean most white “racist” people but then you point out thats around 80% of the white population; so how can you not think most white people are morally inferior entities?
The problem with saying “most” instead of “all”, is its not really all that much better is it.
Be like if some redneck was talking about “most black people being lazy”, “most black people are criminals etc….”, it might be a more accurate statement towards what most racists actually believe but it wouldn’t actually be all that much less racist.
But by and large; no I wouldn’t say your blog is all that racist, it usually tries to be rational in what it does, presents good logic and doesn’t fall into the absolute stupidity you’ll see in the blogs out there that are honestly dedicated to racism in and of itself and not just someone with human failings.
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Is this blog racist? Talking about the dangerous pathologies of individual problematic whites, that have been damaging (and are still damaging) doesn’t imply racial superiority. So, “no”. This blog is far from racist. As a matter of fact, it could easily serve as a very helpful public service announcement to the issues and white mentalities that have been the cause of all the world’s problems.
Keep up the great work, Abagond!
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No abagond, they are not excuses. I don’t have any reason to make excuses for slavery – I wasn’t there and I wasn’t part of the crime. What I’m pointing out, and you see this all through history, not just a little slice carefully selected and managed for political effect, is that currents and events don’t occur in isolation. To understand WHY something was the way it was without excusing what was done. Reading about slavery I find that whole towns and islands in southern Europe were decimated by Barbary, Turkic, and other slave traders without demanding that Libya or Morocco deal with it. I can read about the Mongols attacking Europe and decimating cities without getting upset, even though part of my family is from eastern Europe. I can find out that someone in my family was a Hessian soldier fighting for the British against the Americans without feeling any guilt, or a need to make excuses for them. I wasn’t a part of the slave trade, most of my family immigrated after the civil war, and ended up in the northern Rockies trying to scratch out a living and failing badly at first. They would be amused indeed at your suggestion that they had anything that resembled power or that they should feel guilt or deal with slavery – my dad didn’t have electricity or indoor plumbing until he was in high school. He was also the first in our family to EVER go to college.
Life is not black and white. People’s experiences and backgrounds vary widely.
“As close-minded as you are you will never ever find it.”
Heh. I’m usually referred to as the most unconventional person people know. I’ve been unfriended on Facebook for being both too liberal and too
conservative by those more interested in dogma than fact. I’m anything but closed minded, but I’m not going to call dung a rose, however closed-minded you choose to call me.
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As most commentators have observed posting in this thread you would be hard pressed to find a similar in depth and informative blog on the internet discussing Racism.
So True!
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No this blog is not racist!
I am African, unlike Africans in the diaspora who see the system of whiteness daily, i did not see it until i started working with white people. Most of whom ironically are here to ‘save Africa’ (how colonial). I was so shocked by their attitudes and those were straight up racists. To this day I have yet to run into a white person without a deep inner superiority complex and i have met many! They act like its a secret but we africans see it so clearly.
So i came to this blog to seek out answers as to why people who seem so intellegent can hold such archaic views. And i did and it made me an activist. Now i discuss colonialism and neo colonialism with my friends and we are learning how to give the finger to these white saviours in africa. Whiteness is an evil system. End of.
As to john, white folk say they are not racits but how many of you ever fought against it truly throughout history? Very few of you. You were silent. So please be silent now and let us discuss our struggles in this system.
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“These are stock MORAL excuses White Americans give for slavery these days.”
It’s not an excuse for slavery, it is an attempt to break the false dichotomy of black=good white=evil put forth on this blog and others. Racist whites use it as an excuse sure, but that doesn’t make it any less true. Abagond if you truly believe that most whites are “racists” than running this blog has warped your sense of reality. Most whites are “imperfect” just like you when it comes to racism.
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Awww that’s really unfortunate that white people think this blog is racist. Two words for white readers, TOO BAD. I don’t think the blog is racist I agree with most of what you have to say and I’ve found it to be VERY informative. If we as Black people/ POC have to deal with a media that is racist and SOOO pro white, male, christian, heterosexual then whites that have issue with this blog need to SUCK IT UP. Please F out of here with that nonsense.
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It’s possible for a discussion to be racial — that is, about race — without being racist. I have not found Agabond’s blog to be racist. I do disagree with him fundamentally with respect to the substantive prominence of racism within the US today, and I believe he is guilty at times of dichotomous thinking and confirmation bias in seeking supports for his opinions on this matter, but the fact that I disagree with him does not equate to a conclusion that he is racist.
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@Nom De Plume…You’re welcome! Just thought the excerpts from it dove-tailed nicely with Abagond’s, “Whites are individuals yet, sadly,…”
@Abagond…I apologize in advance for this next, very lengthy reply (I worked my former editor – with his 600 words or less limit – to death!).
@Dave Lister…“Well, in the first place the capturing was done by other black men. For another slavery was eradicated in Africa, if it has been eradicated at all, occurred after the American civil war.”
As I’ve said somewhere else recently – Yes, the practice of slavery on the African continent between tribes did exist as a result of WAR, – just like Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, Bagram and extraordinary rendition particularly – which doesn’t excuse, but clarifies the point that, rather than whiteness being “exceptional,” it’s hardly different. Constantly using that statement to blame Blacks for slavery’s beginnings is a bit of “throwing the rock and hiding your hand,” as my grandmother used to always say.
Because, simply: Who provided the seemingly, never-ending MARKET for those sales (can’t have supply without demand)? What made YOUR ancestors pack Africans like sardines, chained hand and foot – in their own feces and urine – in those ships like animals; tossing bodies overboard as “spoiled” cargo? What made YOUR ancestors try to erase every semblance of dignity, self-determination and humanness through 100s of years of brutality in the service of blatant white greed and laziness (I’m a daughter of a field Negro and I’ve had my turn out in those fields as well in my younger days – and there weren’t ANY damned white folk out there planting, growing or picking a damned thing in the “original 13” where I’m from!)? What made YOUR ancestors (before AND after the Civil War) perpetuate the same, low-down, brutality in word and deed not only upon Blacks, but all the other “Others” – some of whom were American citizens (Japanese internment camps immediately come to mind)? What made YOUR ancestors’ “accident of geographic location” more important than anyone else’s, so much so that they felt it justifiable to steal the land of Native Americans, while unapologetically slaughtering millions (who, incidentally, tried to help them in the beginning) without conscience, nor concern, for the destruction of cultures and families – and then worse, squeezing them onto poorly-serviced reservations, forgotten in a land that was once theirs to begin with? It certainly wasn’t any war that the VICTIMS of your ancestors declared.
” For a third, while some white participated and used slaves, many other helped free them, and died fighting to end the American slave system. While there were unique things about the American system, in the context of the rest of the planet slavery was a common phenomenon. The Atlantic slave trade was in a customer of a pre-existing African slave trade, and likely grew to be the best customer, of that I don’t know.”
Back to the “All/Some/Many” thing again {smdh}. Nobody here has denied that there was white participation in ending the American slave system. Given the fact that slaves had no real “Agency” of their own it would be ludicrous to think otherwise – John Brown, along with some abolitionists, are great examples of whites who spent less time defending whiteness, and more time defending our rights to – humanness.
However, the whole “white Savior” thing belies the hella determination and intelligence, enduring spirit and fierce stick-to-itiveness among slaves, THEMSELVES that freed many. Harriet Tubman, the Angolans of the Stono Rebellion in SC immediately come to mind. Common phenomenon, or not, the American slave system (cum Jim Crow, cum fake post-racial society to this day), is a product of whiteness. And there’s no “likely” about it! Though not alone, it WAS the best customer in its quest for expanding empire: http://www.pepysdiary.com/p/7105.php#BookSources/0679642498
“Limited land area for the growing population forced innovation in agriculture…” May I suggest you read Judith Carney’s “Black RIce?” The innovation in agriculture – which made white landowners, at least in my “original 13,” among the richest in America – was from the gendered knowledge of West African women (I say gendered, because it was they who chose the seeds, and planted and harvested the crops – still to this day! I know, I’m sitting in West Africa as I write.). “Innovation in other areas and the industrial revolution” were both motivated by a rapacious greed for “MORE” (otherwise known as capitalism).
“They have power only if you let them rent space in your head.” Easy for white privilege to say, particularly never having had “them” forcibly and negatively, take up residence in one’s head for all of your life – for free!
Abagond, again – please forgive my taking up so much space. I’m old, but more importantly, I’m tired of whiteness not owning their shit, all while talking about us moving forward – together. One CAN’T happen without the other.
Peace…
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“I believe he is guilty at times of dichotomous thinking”
Honestly, I feel that way about my own thinking and I believe that is a normal part of a quest for growth, learning and education. As has been pointed out in some of these comments, just about everybody has to unlearn and unravel racism to some degree or another. POV and through whose lens do we see things is a really important component to this blog, which is another reason why I think there is such a high level of truthfulness here. I read a book a long time ago, “Living for Change” by Grace Lee Boggs, and she discusses this ability to allow our thoughts and opinions to evolve without worrying about what we might have thought in the past.
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@ Deb
Amen.
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@Dave Lister:
“What exactly did I excuse? In fact, those making the moral excuses are those who fail to acknowledge the African part of the Atlantic slave trade. Which portion of what was posted do you think is untrue?”
***
As I mentioned up thread, I was pointing out that the words you used play right into the narrative of Abagond’s 4/7/11 post on “Current Arguments About Slavery,” which I found more than interesting. Specifically, I was referring to the “Weak Moral Excuses” portion of Abagond’s post. I wasn’t labeling anything “untrue.”
DAVE:
“Well, in the first place the capturing was done by other black men.”
WEAK MORAL EXCUSE:
Africans sold their own people as slaves.
DAVE:
“For another slavery was eradicated in Africa, if it has been eradicated at all, occurred after the American civil war.”
“For a third, while some white participated and used slaves, many other helped free them, and died fighting to end the American slave system.”
WEAK MORAL EXCUSES:
Africans are still selling slaves.
The important thing to remember is that whites stopped slavery.
DAVE:
“While there were unique things about the American system, in the context of the rest of the planet slavery was a common phenomenon.”
“The Atlantic slave trade was in a customer of a pre-existing African slave trade, and likely grew to be the best customer, of that I don’t know.”
WEAK MORAL EXCUSES:
Slavery goes back thousands of years.
Most human societies have practiced slavery.
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I’m reminded of a quote from US Congresswoman Michelle Bachmann:
“But we also know that the very founders that wrote those documents worked tirelessly until slavery was no more in the United States. … I think it is high time that we recognize the contribution of our forbearers who worked tirelessly — men like John Quincy Adams, who would not rest until slavery was extinguished in the country.”
(Of course what she said was historically incorrect, but you get the point).
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Nom De Plume, whatever abagond decided to say in some other post is hardly the word of a god. I have no reason to make a moral excuse, weak or otherwise, for this truly immoral behavior, as it wasn’t me. Drive that in – I am not going to make an excuse for something I didn’t do and had no part in. I am pointing out that issue of slavery was a world wide issue and American slavery was a subset of that issue – the subset most important to the USA but that is no reason to isolate it and remove it from the context of the time in order to try and prove a political point. If (some) whites were the perpetrators here, it isn’t because Europeans are innately “different”, it’s because Europeans had the ability HERE to engage in an immoral behavior because they had power HERE. In other places that was different. Arabian slavery of Africans was not a European issue and started and ended at different times and was conducted separately, as was Turkic, Berber, and slavery internal to Africa among others. It was once common by every culture I can think of to rape and pillage a captured enemy city, but that isn’t a moral excuse for that occurring on any particular occasion. Although this still occurs in some places, the fact that it is far less frequent and not the policy of militaries to engage in now points to the moral growth of the human race as a whole, as does the ending of slavery and the demand from once slave-owning societies to end slavery in places that it still existed (right up through the first half of the 20th century). For example, the efforts of the British Navy to intercept and return to Africa slave ships in the Atlantic and to a lesser degree the Indian Ocean. To isolate the Atlantic trade from the others is to ignore the fact that standards of morals on average have grown over the years from when slavery was matter of fact for many on every continent except perhaps Australia (I haven’t heard that Aborigines engaged in this.)
These aren’t excuses, they are attempts to try and understand WHY it wasn’t seen as more of a moral issue then, as we do now. We can only know to some degree as to what they were thinking, only by whatever writings were left behind. Historians do this whenever such material survived and is available. In our case we have a surfeit of such material, in some others world-wide there is little or none.
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Abagond:
You’re doing your job, white folks are upset with you…Success! They hate you because you don’t have a filter. The people can interact with you keyboard to keyboard. There is no middleman standing in the way of the truth. This is why the powers that be wanna control the internet. With tv, movies, music, sports, and advertising, they can control the content…Logic 101. Abagond, keep doing what you’re doing brotha, you’re a “Lion” in our race…No Doubt!!!
Tyrone
Black Eros Movement
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@Dave Lister:
I don’t believe Abagond’s posts are “the word of God.” I explained why I referred to his 2011 post in my preceding comments.
I understand that Westerners weren’t the only ones who practiced slavery. The European slave trade, however, wreaked a worldwide havoc that affects people positively and negatively to this day. That is why future generations of negatively affected people just can’t “get over it.”
I don’t believe that whites are inherently evil or inferior, but I do believe that unbridled, unchallenged power has the tendency to corrupt and in many cases, to blind.
I’m keeping this comment short because I don’t want any future exchanges between the two of us to be only about this issue. Any topic can take on a life of its own.
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“Yes, the practice of slavery on the African continent between tribes did exist as a result of WAR, – just like Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, Bagram and extraordinary rendition particularly – which doesn’t excuse, but clarifies the point that, rather than whiteness being “exceptional,” it’s hardly different.”
War, kidnapping, and the removal of criminals. However it looks like you are agreeing with me here.
“Constantly using that statement to blame Blacks for slavery’s beginnings”
Strawman argument. I don’t know if historians or anthropologists have any idea where slavery began. If so I haven’t read it. I also don’t blame blacks any more than I excuse whites. There is plenty of moral failings to spread around. In the case of the US that blame can’t be assigned to the slaves or descendents of slaves as they were the victims of slave owners and those in the Atlantic trade, including Africans who engaged in the trade. You seem to think that because the traders at that end were Africans assigning a portion of blame to them reflects on you – it wouldn’t. These traders were as I understand it not even members of the same kingdoms/tribes/ethnic groups as those sold into the Atlantic trade. Similarly my ancestral kingdom/tribe/ethnic group was not a part of the Atlantic trade in any respect, although since it was ended you and I both have been born into membership in a “kingdom” which once did.
“What made YOUR ancestors pack Africans like sardines, chained hand and foot – in their own feces and urine – in those ships like animals; (etc).
My ancestors didn’t (AFAIK). You are trying to assign blame where you don’t know it exists, solely due to similarity in appearance.
“I’ve had my turn out in those fields as well in my younger days – and there weren’t ANY damned white folk out there planting, growing or picking a damned thing in the “original 13″ where I’m from!)?”
There were where I’m from. There weren’t any “field (redacted)” where I’m from, but there were a bunch of recent immigrants trying to scrape out a living farming in a climate that was far worse than the south or the original 13. As I’ve stated, there wasn’t electricity or indoor plumbing until the 1950’s in an area where 20-30 below zero was fairly common.
As far as the native Americans are concerned, I agree that their treatment was despicable as well. Treaties were continually broken, they were killed outright, and forced on to reservations. No doubt. They aren’t now required to live on reservations, and indeed the biggest issue facing many tribes is how big of a drop of blood qualifies one for membership. This is in tribes who have discovered extractable resources on reservations or who have developed a HIGHLY lucrative casino business. I don’t know how to fix any of their issues either. I simply have no idea what to do. I can listen to the problems all day long, but that doesn’t help me change anything.
Perhaps a solution isn’t wanted by you. Perhaps you define yourself by the problems and any solution would unravel you. I don’t know. If you tell me specifically what has been done to you I’ll listen with a sympathetic ear.
Perhaps no possible solution outside of the second coming exists.
By the way, my brother is married to a Native American and they have children who are half Native American. Great kids, when they are older I hope they come for extended visits. My sister-in-law’s only real issue with being NA is that her father refuses to acknowledge paternity so she has no tribal membership – even though she is nearly full blooded. She is mostly interested in resolving this for the sake of my nephews and their participation in that half of their heritage.
“However, the whole “white Savior””
Another strawman. That wasn’t what was said at all. The point is that there were and are still whites on both sides of the issue, with many more opposed to slavery or IT WOULDN’T HAVE CHANGED. Though I can’t speak to the reasons people voted, blacks alone didn’t elect President Obama. Colin Powell might have been the first black President had he decided to run. If you look at the changes from 1960 to today, the legal environment has changed considerably. These changes were the result of strong activist black people making many white voters become aware that in some parts of the country people were actively opposing the legal requirements for equality. The legal requirements for equality have also expanded, due to court cases brought by black and white activists in large part that ended “separate but equal”. The point is not that whites were “Saviors”, but that they were “Partners”, “Allies”. When freedom is denied to some, it is constricted for everyone.
Anecdotally I’ll point out that my black friends have said that their worst experiences with racism have been with Asians, mostly immigrant Asians who can hardly be said to have been indoctrinated in the American system.
“May I suggest you read Judith Carney’s “Black RIce?” The innovation in agriculture”
You may, but I have read similar reports in other areas. It is very likely true. However, my comment on innovation in agriculture referred to Europe long before America or the Atlantic trade. Europe simply is not suited for migratory culture of any size. Too much water, too many mountains, too hostile a climate, low carrying capacity of much of the land, not enough open flat land until you reach far eastern Europe. Africa is a much different story geographically speaking and thus the cultures evolved differently.
“I’m tired of whiteness not owning their shit, all while talking about us moving forward – together. One CAN’T happen without the other.”
What is “whiteness”? I own MY issues, and as an American, I own 1/300,000,000th of the issues of the USA, and as a human I own 1/7,000,000,000 of the issues of the Earth as a whole.
If one can’t happen without the other, then I guess we’re going nowhere since most people don’t ascribe to any theory of racial or ancestral guilt, for blacks or whites or brown or reds or yellow or purples. Debts monetary or otherwise are no longer transferred between generations. I’m sorry that some people of “tribes” similar in appearance engage or engaged in immoral activities against your “tribe”. I really am, and if I could dig them up to pay for their crimes I would. I can’t, but I don’t believe in guilt by proxy any more than I believe in Mormon baptism by proxy. I have never done any of the things that are issues for you, and had not even met any blacks until I was in college as at that time none lived in my area. That has changed.
Another anecdotal story: my father had applied for and won a professorship for a number of years in Australia. My father has hair that while not as tightly curled as many of African decent still looked like that in a photograph. He was also fairly dark from years working in the sun. The Australian consulate wanted him to come in for an “interview”. He basically told them that he’d already been given the fellowship and that he wasn’t coming in just so they could tell whether or not he was black. They dropped the issue. I get it.
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“I understand that Westerners weren’t the only ones who practiced slavery. The European slave trade, however, wreaked a worldwide havoc that affects people positively and negatively to this day.”
That’s true. Largely because Europeans were the first peoples to go “worldwide”. Empires before were pretty much limited to contiguous land area.
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@ Deb.
Amazingly put above there. Dave Lister would never concede your points though. He would rather tell you how it is for you as a black woman than possibly concede anything that you are saying. Or deny that these institutions still carry weight today. It should be enough that he disavows them from the past! [Rolls Eyes]
This is why he is a lost cause. Not because he doesn’t have the right to question but he has the gall to disregard disconfirming information to his ever so slanted point of view. And then say that we have provided no evidence to support our point of view.
Science has shown that whites are inherently biased against blacks TODAY: an overwhelming majority of whites that have taken the IAT for example are shown to have strongly negative or somewhat negative associations with black individuals. That is today in the 21st century. Project Implicit. White research. All confirming the truth. We don’t even need to tap upon the ever growing examples of systemic discrimination across N. America to come up with proof.
But nonetheless Dave Lister will hold to his: “Oh, well you can’t prove that whites hold those opinions” stance. He’s right. Proving someone’s internal stance is next to near impossible. So he can go on denying the valid testimonies of everyone just so that he can hold on to his Ayn Randian fantasies.
Ron Paul can save the world afterall! Everyone just needs to work a little harder! SMH
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I’d like to make two points:
First, I think that some White readers aren’t really grasping the idea of Black racism vs. White racism. They somehow believe they are two sides of the same coin, which they are not. Generally speaking, Black racism is usually founded in the belief that White people are CULTURALLY defective, while White racism is founded in the belief that Black people are GENETICALLY inferior.
Second, I don’t believe you can argue with a person so set in their beliefs as some of the White readers on this blog. As you can see, it is similar to talking to a wall. There is no exchange of ideas. Most often than not, they will lecture you, because of course… they know Black people better than we know ourselves. They will never concede any of your points and they never appologize for the mistakes they make. It is the highest level of brainwashing and they simply aren’t ready to wake up.
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JT says:
“Amazingly put above there. Dave Lister would never concede your points though. He would rather tell you how it is for you as a black woman than possibly concede anything that you are saying.”
Strawman number one.
“Or deny that these institutions still carry weight today. It should be enough that he disavows them from the past!”
Strawman number two.
“Not because he doesn’t have the right to question but he has the gall to disregard disconfirming information to his ever so slanted point of view.”
Non-factual claim.
“Science has shown that whites are inherently biased against blacks TODAY”
Possibly true, no cite given.
“So he can go on denying the valid testimonies of everyone just so that he can hold on to his Ayn Randian fantasies.”
Strawman number three, already shown to be false based on earlier statements regarding money. I have yet to see any “valid testimonies”, only vague generalities, so there are none to deny.
“Ron Paul can save the world afterall! Everyone just needs to work a little harder! SMH”
Statement intended only to try and provoke an emotional response.
Next?
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“Most often than not, they will lecture you, because of course… they know Black people better than we know ourselves.”
If this is referring to me, it is a false statement. I have responded to statements that indicate that readers here will: “Most often than not, they will lecture you, because of course… they know White people better than we know ourselves.”
“They will never concede any of your points and they never appologize for the mistakes they make.”
If this is referring to me, I try to always apologize for mistakes I make.
“It is the highest level of brainwashing and they simply aren’t ready to wake up.”
If “wake up” means that someone adopt your point of view on issues like inherited guilt, you are correct.
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@ Dave Lister
What are my issues on “inherited guilt”? I have not mentioned anything that suggests this, so please clarify.
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I gave you two:
Project Implicit and Payne (2001)
White reaction time showed in Payne 2001 that whites were much more quicker to associate a black face with guns than a white face with guns.
Moreover, the proportion of errors made by whites were greatest when black faces were associated with tools and not guns.
Significant statistical results offered for your consumption. And yet your only response is to ignore what has been concluded.
Moreover,
I did provide historical references for when race was first devised. You went on to talk about Japanese, Korean, Chinese etc. as if that was related to the conversation. Nor did you provide any references for your claims.
Hypocritical and purposefully discordant? I say so.
You are all about attempting to refute claims instead of holding up your own.
Also, Project Implicit, has run thousands of demos. If you complete a test, you will be able to see how 70% + show automatic preferences for whites over blacks.
Here is the FAQ which includes some similar information. Go through it yourself or do the IAT yourself.
https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/demo/background/faqs.html#faq18
Still haven’t gotten a link from you buttressing your claims of a perfectly meritocratic society that we live in absent of history.
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@Dave Lister:”If “wake up” means that someone adopt your point of view on issues like inherited guilt, you are correct.”
I find it incredible that you describe yourself as a liberal who was unfriended at facebook, but you would actually come on to this blog and defend slavery in the United States.
I can predict that you are going to deny that you are defending slavery.
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No JT, the participants in Payne 2001, as I stated before, weren’t AFAIK identified by whites. It never did, and perhaps I missed it and would you be so kind as to point it out. It did reference another paper where the actions of black and white participants showed no measurable difference. You are again making claims for which there is no support in the documents you provided.
You did not provide any historical references when race was first devised. Nobody really know when race was first devised. “Scientific racism” as a doctrine was devised in Europe, where it also met its demise. The racism by the Japanese as an example seems to be more based on religion, but I can’t really tell. The fact that it existed independent of whites is a contradiction to the claim that whites devised race. It is not the only such contradiction. You needn’t make claims that are so easily contradicted by readily available fact.
“Still haven’t gotten a link from you buttressing your claims of a perfectly meritocratic society that we live in absent of history.”
Oh, yes, your post wouldn’t be complete without yet another strawman – full of fiber but no nutrition.
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@ Malkia
“To this day I have yet to run into a white person without a deep inner superiority complex and i have met many! ”
You have only just begun.
Try talking to them about ANY pressing issue involving race in America and their comments are bound to rock you sideways.
I prefer to talk to the ignorant whites ( only if I must) than the educated ones.
The ignorant ones just call a spade a spade.
Education gives them many opportunities to twist facts, science and just make up random jargon.
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@ someguy
” Generally speaking, Black racism is usually founded in the belief that White people are CULTURALLY defective, while White racism is founded in the belief that Black people are GENETICALLY inferior.”
If I may be frank, and I always am, I believe that most whites suffer from MORAL defectiveness.
They know right from wrong, unless you are a sociopath, but do wrong anyway!
Then in order to live with the overwhelming guilt:
They lie
They reason
They project their evils onto someone else, ( usually a black / brown person)
They use substances when all else fails
Then, finally, they sink into that black hole of despair, not knowing how to escape from themselves.
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vanishing point says:
“I find it incredible that you describe yourself as a liberal who was unfriended at facebook, but you would actually come on to this blog and defend slavery in the United States.”
Another strawman. There must be a lot of horses around here. Or no horses given there’s so much excess straw.
“I can predict that you are going to deny that you are defending slavery.”
Of course you can. Who would you be if you couldn’t put words in the mouths of others? That of course is not a failing limited to you.
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Truthbetold mostly says:
“If I may be frank, and I always am, I believe that most blacks suffer from MORAL defectiveness.
They know right from wrong, unless you are a sociopath, but do wrong anyway!
Then in order to live with the overwhelming guilt:
They lie
They reason
They project their evils onto someone else, (usually a white person)
They use substances when all else fails
Then, finally, they sink into that black hole of despair, not knowing how to escape from themselves.”
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Nope, you are keeping is REAL. You are engaging what AMERIKKA HATES more than themselves. Race/Racism and white culpability. You see, everything that Whites hate about themselves, they pushed all those filthy attributes upon blacks. Thus, the current narrative is FEAR THE BLACKS. When in reality they should be in FEAR OF THEIR CORPORATIONS/GOVERNMENT for creating lies and distracting them from reality. In truth, You have more Blacks screwing Whites in porn than Black robbing, mugging, and beating them down.
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“Thus, the current narrative is FEAR THE BLACKS. When in reality they should be in FEAR OF THEIR CORPORATIONS/GOVERNMENT for creating lies and distracting them from reality.”
Funny, I thought the current narrative is fear of corporations and the government. At least that’s what I hear and see, from Occupy Wall Street to the teabaggers.
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“… I’m tired of whiteness not owning their shit, all while talking about us moving forward – together. One CAN’T happen without the other.”-
Thanks Deb- One certainly can not happen w/o the other. I soooooo agree completely with your entire comment! Thanks for schooling those that obviously are in dire need of an unbiased and non-eurocentric education.
Topic: No, this blog is not racist IMHO.
Anytime someone calls white people on their BS or try to have an open and honest discourse about racialized attitudes and beliefs, the reverse-racism rally call is bound to be next. Trust…I have experienced this so called reverse racism rhetoric in romantic relationships; so much so, that I seriously doubt I will ever be able to have another interracial relationship.
Those tired old stories that have historically been crafted by whites to bring solidarity and pride among fictive kin (other whites), even if it disadvantages them financially and/or morally [ex. poor whites voting against their interest and lack of perspective taking) while denigrating others (POC) goes way back-even before the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade, so of course cognitive dissonance will occur when trying to accomadate new information that is more than likely antithetical to what has been shoved into your brain and your forefathers brain…..ad infinitum. When narratives have been told often enough, even if untrue, people unfortunately take it as TRUTH. And we all know if those fallacies benefit the privileged class, they will fight tooth and nail to remain spoiled brats.
You my sweet Abagond, and the many other warriors who comment, challenge these narratives and I for one thank you.
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@Abagond…Amen right back atcha for all you try to do!
@Jt…Thanx, sometimes I get pretty “full” hearing the same shit, different day.
@Dave Lister…I will respond shortly (have to move to a place with a better connection that’ll alow me to write more than a few sentences without dropping out!).
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“To notice this stuff and point it out is not racist. To turn a blind eye to it is.”
That sums it up.
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I understand these points u have raised here, as they clearly can be attributed to any group or race of people, irrespective of the country of context. But, as you have outlined also, your understanding of racism and it’s many blatant or subliminal forms is but a by product of your American environment. Therefore racism in other parts of the world, whilst evident is entirely different to America. America is a land of extreme, where everything is bigger and better apparently, there is an arrogance in American not seen elsewhere sometimes, whether it’s black or White America. This whole blog is an afrocentric view from within the corporate mess that isAmerica. And, whilst a growing number of black made movies seek to portray whites in lesser status roles to superior and more successful black characters, is but the only way humans know how to feel better about themselves, as the game of self esteem & self worth is played through a racial forcing back. We are on the tale end of a passage of time that continues to dictate your perspective, some of the things you address are now ghosts of the past, however I do not believe in ghosts, nor do I believe in some genetic intelligence separation of the races, of which is a faulty term anyway, but alas…….. As a man in a interracial marriage of some 13 years, ad a White man the unending racism, stereotypical condescension from my coloured in-laws and extended community is something utterly depressing, say what u wanna say, believe it to….. But I see the racist face of all people constantly and they are all the frigging same, no exception, humanity can get stuffed, cause I equally distrust you all, because forgiveness is seldom sought or understanding rarely applied, just the want to right and the status of victim to empower the mediocre!
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@dave lister: “Largely because Europeans were the first peoples to go “worldwide”. Empires before were pretty much limited to contiguous land area.”
Wrong. Chinese ships sailed to Africa and far south east Asia long before a single european boat crossed any of those waters. Nobody knows how far west the chinese came or how far east and north they sailed. Arabs were trading and sailing along the coasts of Africa and India and Persia and propably to Siam etc.
The polynesians sailed much wider than anyone else well before anyone else, from eastern Pacific to the coast of Americas etc., covering practically the whole Pacific region, which is quite a slice of this planet, I’d say.
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sammy, your knee is jerking again. Look at the word “empire”. The Chinese came and went, but there is no evidence that they sailed to North America or Europe. The Arabs sailed across the Indian Ocean and It’s pretty evident from who they met by the spread of Islam. There is also no real evidence that the Polynesians visited the Americas that I’ve see (maybe there is) , as there is quite a long stretch of ocean between Polynesia and the South American coast with no stopping points.
The Europeans were the first to cover ALL the oceans and land masses. That’s is simply undeniable fact. They were also the first and maybe the only to build empires that weren’t either contiguous to a land mass or over short stretches of water as in Hawaii or Indonesia. Note before you start twitching again I’m serving notice that I’m not and won’t justify these empires.
I really do hope your knee gets better.
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Well, it has been educational, but what I’ve learned is probably not what those lost in rhetoric would like to teach. The conversation is simply getting repetitive.
The human race has a long long long way to go, and given that people insist on pulling in different directions, is going to take a long time to get there.
Just as in the case of Faux Nooze I have run out of time and endurance for spending time in an asylum.
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@abagond
One big problem is that instead of focusing on white behavior, most of your posts and comments center around castigating whites for not accepting collective responsibility for the misdeeds of their ancestors. You don’t even talk about real modern day privileges or institututional racism much. You’re more about placing racial blame and then calling those who refuse to accept that blame racists. Stop trying to make collective responsibility stick. It won’t.
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But you don’t need me to tell you your blog is racist Abagond. It’s quite apparent looking at the crazies you’ve started to attract and the thoughtful, balanced commentors that have been chased off over time ( white and POC alike) If you aren’t a black storefront yet you are certainly headed in that direction. The loonies have taken over.
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You know the “not all whites” argument usually is a form of admission of guilt by whites. If this white person is NOT a white supremacist, why would he/she get offended by anything on your blog?
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Wait; didn’t they find genes that are specific to the chinese in various people in the south americas along wiith some similiar words in their varying languages?
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“Just as in the case of Faux Nooze I have run out of time and endurance for spending time in an asylum.”
Take a lot, offer a little in return. Seems about right on with my earliest assessment. I think you would do just fine in an asylum. Your disconnect with reality would make you a shoe-in. LOL.
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The grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence, but always remember what they put on that grass to make it grow.
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Good question, Derrick.
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@dave lister: Well, you have a right for your americacentric idea about history. Empire, as concept, is after all an idea, not just this or that.
The way you define an empire, Rome was not an empire at all. After all, it just centered around what they even called Mare Nostrum, Our Sea, not across oceans to the Americas and Asia. Nor was the mongol superstate an empire even though at its hight it reached from China and Korea to Egypt, almost half of the earth, but, since they did not come to America, that could not have been an empire either, right? But were the vikings creating an empire? They had crossed the Atlantic and their reach went from Cadiz to Sicily to Constantinopol to London to Baltic Sea, Russia, Ukraine, etc. They had towns and outposts all over. Was that an empire or not?
History is a tricky thing if one does not really try to look at it hard. One of the first things to do is to realise that history, as it is written now and was written in the past, tells us about the time it was narrated. The reality of that history may be something different all together. Take the vikings. Today we know that Birka in Sweden was fortified AGAINST the vikings, not by them. Today we know that viking was not a nationalistic term but a term describing free roving bands of looter, raiders and traders who mainly came from Scandinavia. Viking was a term very much like a pirate centuries after.
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John
I am not writing for white people, as much as they keep assuming that. They think they are the centre of the universe but this little old blog of mine is not going to be in their orbit. Not if I can help it.
The purpose of my posts of late about invisible feet, Chinese invasions and mobster daughter-in-laws is to understand and show where their (white people’s) mindset is coming from. A huge part of it DOES come from their unwillingness to face up to their past.
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@Dave Lister (Part 1)…On “War, kidnapping, and the removal of criminals” – simply pointed out they happen equally – no “exceptionalism” exists where whiteness is concerned.
“”Constantly using that statement to blame Blacks for slavery’s beginnings” Strawman argument. I don’t know if historians or anthropologists have any idea where slavery began. If so I haven’t read it. I also don’t blame blacks any more than I excuse whites.”
Strawman? It was you, who, up-thread said, “Well, in the first place the capturing was done by other black men.” Sounds like blaming to me. Don’t back-peddle Dave, it bogs down the “conversation.” I do, however, agree that, “There is plenty of moral failings to spread around.”)
“You seem to think that because the traders at that end were Africans assigning a portion of blame to them reflects on you – it wouldn’t.”
No Dave, YOU seem to think that I think that. I don’t. I see it as a moral failing of the have-nots, trying to have (still a bit different than the haves, trying to have more though, but I digress).
Similarly my ancestral kingdom/tribe/ethnic group was not a part of the Atlantic trade in any respect… Just so I’m clear here, to which “ancestral kingdom/tribe/ethnic group” do you belong?
…although since it was ended you and I both have been born into membership in a “kingdom” which once did…You are trying to assign blame where you don’t know it exists, solely due to similarity in appearance.
I’ll concede the last part of that – I don’t know (which is why I asked above). Funny though, out of all the questions I asked that was the only one you refuted. “Not being a part of the Atlantic trade” does not absolve you of any responsibility for its continued effects, seeing as you and yours had the “privilege” to willingly immigrate “on the decks” of a ship, as opposed to, unwillingly immigrating “in the bowels” of one (merely one of the many privileges you and yours enjoy, and continue to enjoy, due to your “similarity in appearance” – particularly since you apparently, wholeheartedly subscribe to – “On Being White And Other Lies” here in America – http://www.cwsworkshop.org/pdfs/CARC/Family_Herstories/2_On_Being_White.PDF.
Because Dave, though it ended – it was replaced by the same damned thing, by another name – Jim Crow (and all of its later iterations which still exist today. AND, my fellow “kingdom” member – and the only beneficiaries of its continuance – are those who look like you.
“There were where I’m from.” Under the overseer’s watchful eye and whip, Dave? Because that IS what we’re talking about isn’t? While I can appreciate your people’s difficulty trying to eke out an existence in treacherous conditions here, in a foreign land, I have to say, this oranges to apples – because not only did they come here BY CHOICE, they were accepted as human beings – well, after going through “White Man Initiation” (better known as “entering the mainstream”), I’m sure – view parts 1-6 at your leisure (WARNING, very graphic!):
1) http://youtu.be/Vr00KMl-Jus
2) http://youtu.be/HEdP367NVHY
3) http://youtu.be/JlOzIhPMoEs
4) http://youtu.be/ZBm_NyPaUKE (Dave, this part might be particularly interesting to you – which is why I can’t understand your stance
5) http://youtu.be/qa2WB0r7L7s
6) http://youtu.be/p1mIFxLh3Nw
”As far as the native Americans are concerned, I agree that their treatment was despicable as well.”
Well at least we agreed on something.
”..and indeed the biggest issue facing many tribes is how big of a drop of blood qualifies one for membership.”
Being from an “original 13” in the Southeast, I am well aware of the “one drop rule” and the resulting controversy among Native American tribes which, fellow “kingdom” member – is also rooted in slavery (just no way around its influence is there?)! Blacks who were enslaved by the Cherokee, Creek, Seminole, Choctaw, and Chickasaw tribes, were released after the Civil war and were called Tribal Freedmen. Yes, we Blacks, share a close, sometimes not-so-close, but absolutely complex relationship with Native Americans here in America. Too much to go into here, but another link to peruse at your leisure: http://www.yale.edu/glc/gullah/07.htm (I am a descendant of the Gullah people from the Sea Islands of SC). Additionally, at least one tribal controversy I’m aware of has been settled: http://www.theroot.com/buzz/black-cherokees-regain-tribal-citizenship (pass it on to your sister-in-law. If it applies to her, it may help.
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Apologize to all for the gap, gotta get the signal whenever I can here (thinking of investing in one of those mobile, USB things for the rest of my time here!)
@Dave Lister (Part 2)…
”Perhaps a solution isn’t wanted by you. Perhaps you define yourself by the problems and any solution would unravel you. I don’t know. If you tell me specifically what has been done to you I’ll listen with a sympathetic ear. Perhaps no possible solution outside of the second coming exists.”
Dave, I could say the same two things about you – would it be true? I know what I want, and I will accept nothing less – OWN YOUR SHIT! . I don’t need a sympathetic ear, I need accountability – from the owning, to the truly repairing. And if that’s not forthcoming, “the second coming” will do.
”. “However, the whole “white Savior”” Another strawman…The point is that there were and are still whites on both sides of the issue, with many more opposed to slavery or IT WOULDN’T HAVE CHANGED.”
There you go again, Dave! There was no straw man there. I see you again, conveniently ignored the rest of what I had to say after the first sentence (you just keep confirming JT’s argument for him!). Oh, IT WOULD HAVE CHANGED. Have you ever heard the old Negro Spiritual, “Oh Freedom? Its refrain tells the reason why I know – however long it took, it would have:
“And before I’d be a slave I’ll be buried in my grave. And go home to my Lord and be free
Some of YOU might not have survived it, but trust me – back then (as opposed to now) – it most definitely would’ve changed. The Stono Rebellion I mentioned earlier, was the largest rebellion mounted by slaves against slave owners in colonial America. And yes, some slaves – AND some slave owners paid the ultimate price. Perpetrated mostly by enslaved Angolans, SC later prohibited the importation of slaves from that part of Africa – afraid they’d be singing that refrain again – and mean it. It also forced whites to further put foot-on-neck, by passing The Negro Act, not only to prevent groups of slaves from gathering together as they had before (scared another revolt might be planned), but to make excessively brutal slave owners subject to fines for their brutality toward their slaves (a first in SC!) – because they believed it was the harsh treatment that sparked the rebellion (ya think?!). WE did that Dave – alone. So please, stop with the “Savior” shit.
”Though I can’t speak to the reasons people voted, blacks alone didn’t elect President Obama. Colin Powell might have been the first black President had he decided to run.”
I can’t speak for the reasons either – I didn’t vote for him. Nor would I have voted for Colin Powell. Speaking for me only – I’ve had quite enough of society-identified, Black “politicians” who turn out to be carbon copies of the lying, self-enriching, murdering white ones we’ve endured since this country was founded, thank you very much. What does either of them have to do with this discussion?
”If you look at the changes from 1960 to today, the legal environment has changed considerably.”
Yeah, that’s why America imprisons more people in the damned world – with the majority of its for-profit prison populations being Black and Brown (http://www.sentencingproject.org/detail/news.cfm?news_id=1223&id=167). And please, don’t say we commit more crimes. Money from the federal government’s, Edward Byrne Memorial State and Local Law Enforcement Assistance Grant Program (this, from the “conservative” Heritage foundation: (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,330008,00.html) and Project Safe Neighborhoods programs are the main contributors to that dynamic (whites are really some petrified folk – and rightfully so, given their track record).
”The legal requirements for equality have also expanded, due to court cases brought by black and white activists in large part that ended “separate but equal”
Don’t lecture me on expanded legal requirements for equality, Dave – you have no idea what you’re talking about. If you did, when that white teenager, with his little buddies in tow, ran that Black man over last year in Mississippi – ALL of their asses would have been in jail for murder (just one example). And while there were white activist “PARTNERS/ALLIES” involved in Brown v Board, they were NOT instrumental in that “expansion” – WE were (just can’t give credit, where credit is due can you?).
”When freedom is denied to some, it is constricted for everyone.”
That’s the FIRST unequivocal truth you’ve told during this whole “discussion.” Now if you could just get the rest of your alabaster brethren to let that sink in, there might be some hope of going somewhere.
”Anecdotally I’ll point out that my black friends have said that their worst experiences with racism have been with Asians, mostly immigrant Asians who can hardly be said to have been indoctrinated in the American system.”
Can’t say that I’ve had the same experience as “your Black friends” (Family, you knew that was comin’! didn’t you?). And as for, “…can hardly be said to have been indoctrinated in the American system” – all I can say is, WHAT?? {smdh}
”It is very likely true” – You use that a lot it seems, when you really don’t know something, but are unwilling to cede the point. So now you’re talking about Europe. Even though it was the agricultural innovations in America (STOLEN from Africa) about which I corrected you (remember your, “Virtually unlimited access to the oceans allowed and indeed demanded a sea-faring civilization develop for trade.”?). You’re being disingenuous Dave – and it shows.
” What is “whiteness”? – In a word? You.
”If one can’t happen without the other, then I guess we’re going nowhere.” – after “listening” to you go on and on, that pretty much mirrors my feelings exactly (JT, sorry – I should’ve listened to you.)
”I have never done any of the things that are issues for you, and had not even met any blacks until I was in college as at that time none lived in my area.”
(I rarely, if ever, do I do this Family, but in this instance, not only is turn-about fair play, but I needed to illustrate that while Dave may be a lost cause, ALL of them aren’t)
Anecdotally Dave – I know someone to whom those EXACT words apply (even down to your damned name!), except he’s Italian-American and visibly, probably as “white” as I’m sure you are – I’ve been married to him for 31 years and trust me, I was no different then, than I am now. The difference between your and his conversation however, is he gets it (well that, and I’m a helluva woman)! But it didn’t start out that way, with neither him, nor his kin. But because he was WILLING and ABLE to first and foremost – OWN HIS SHIT, and secondly, able to – UNLEARN all that spoon-fed, white exceptionalism bullshit, we were able to move forward – TOGETHER.
And as for, ”He basically told them that he’d already been given the fellowship and that he wasn’t coming in just so they could tell whether or not he was black. They dropped the issue. I get it.”
Hell, MOST Black folk in America never make it pass the application process, never mind coming in for an “interview” – given all that screening applications/resumes for “Black-sounding names” nonsense that’s STILL going on. Do you get that? See ya Dave. As I said, I’m old and tired of it. Think and believe whatever you want. But please, stop trying to minimize the much-needed and much-appreciated work that Black men like Abagond are doing in service to our community (he’s said repeatedly, he’s NOT writing for yours). It makes you look petty – and worse, weak.
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@The world we live in…I appreciate that and you’re more than welcome. However, when I told Dave I was sitting in West Africa as I wrote, it wasn’t because that’s where I was born or educated. I suffered under the same euro-centric education as every other Black person born in America (I’m here to help a friend who’s building a Black cultural center here, and to follow some crumbs of my own). It’s taken me well over 30 years to nail this shit down!
” …I have experienced this so called reverse racism rhetoric in romantic relationships; so much so, that I seriously doubt I will ever be able to have another interracial relationship.”
I understand totally (see the end of my last comment to Dave), but I really believe you can’t help who you love. My only advice to you is – always, always love yourself first!
@Abagond…thanks again, for your patience.
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@ Deb
Your efforts were valiant! I don’t think it could have been done better. And at the same time I think that it would take a miracle for someone like him to change his stance.
A few weeks back, Abagond posted about this Gene Marks character from Forbes. I think that this Dave Lister comes from the same school as Gene. According to their doctrines: we’re in a post-racial world; PoC can tip the unfavorable odds through luck, hardwork, imagination; not enough has been done by PoC to address issues in their own communities; systemic discrimination can be whisked away through merits and resilience; and MOST IMPORTANTLY, what’s done is done (“Stop fixating on the past! China is out-producing us! Mexicans are invading our towns. We need to focus on bigger, more pressing issues!”)
In other words: “Get over it!”
Oh, but then we have Dave Lister’s added charm involving the dismissal of what people say/debasement of the blog itself. This can be seen in his most recent posts about how this forum is like-an-asylum and that comment about this blog being worthless if it were gauged by free market mechanisms of supply and demand. Oh and where he said about how he plans to lurk just so he can laugh/smirk/be amused about what is being said here or whatever. Not to mention how he said that everyone’s experience or comments of their experiences are straw dolls.
No wonder why he talks so much of straw dolls: his very presence on this blog was one. He had no intention of engaging openly with people. He had his mind set walking in and walking out. Lost cause from start to finish. A “Lara” with a bigger vocabulary. =D
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@JT…Thanks man. I’m a little hard-headed and there are times I don’t listen to folk who know what they’re talking about. Quite a learning experience!
Yeah, no – I don’t see miracles happening there. As you said, “He had his mind set walking in and walking out…A “Lara” with a bigger vocabulary.” {smdh}
Take care…
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Maybe i am too jaded.
i have a family member who reminds me of DL. He is a lawyer (that is white). He appears to run by reason. But his instincts are dominated by racial nepotism.
Accordingly, when he loses out to a person of colour for a highly coveted position or when he missed out on grant opportunities in law school, he takes the approach that he is victim of racial bias. There are only so many grants, and very few are directed towards poor old white males like him!
Meanwhile he gets paid two to three times the average salary in the position that he has attained. But if he misses out on added opportunities, it is because of affirmative action-styled policies. [Rolls eyes]
When you tell him that maybe those individuals attained those grants/positions because of their own credentials and skills he then reminds you how qualified he is and the evils of equality-based policies in the work place. He knows that they are unqualified for their positions because he sees the quality of their work and that tells him everything!
Everyone should be rewarded based on the merits of their case. Not the colour of their skin.
As if the rise of white people occurred in a vaccuum due to their natural superiority. SMH. If you game the system long enough, like the system has been gamed and continues to be gamed for white people, then yes, the most satisfying positions and highpaying salaries will go to white people.
Thus in my humble opinion, i believe his opinions are racist. You cannot separate people from historical context. Nor can you refuse to admit that people of colour don’t get those high paying positions because they worked harder than you did for the position, and it had nothing to do with affirmative action.
He doesn’t know nor will he ever how each individual, white or of colour got their position. He just works from the assumption that people of colour appeal their way into positions that they don’t deserve etc.
I truly believe therefore he has a very slanted point of view but covers it with his purported abhorrence of racial discrimination and his view that things should run equally for all peoples.
In a ahistorical/ non-contextual perspective, maybe he would be right. A meritocracy would be nice. But reality dictates that we arrived to where we did because of the sins of previous generations, and systemic perpetuation of their evils.
I truly believe therefore that their ideology is one of blissful ignorance, narcissim, and absolute disconnect with reality.
If you want to try and understand the perspective of a person of colour – listen to them! That’s what i’ve been doing. I’ve learned more as a student than i ever could if i had the mistaken/idiotic notion that i could be their teacher. =D
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Deb said:
“I know someone to whom those EXACT words apply (even down to your damned name!), except he’s Italian-American and visibly, probably as “white” as I’m sure you are – I’ve been married to him for 31 years and trust me, I was no different then, than I am now. ”
I was with you until that part. SMH.
you also said: “but I really believe you can’t help who you love.” and then you said : “always, always love yourself first!”
Like I’ve said before in a different thread, unless you believe in ‘love at first sight’, you can ‘fall in love’ with anyone you choose. I find it strange that you decided to be with a white man. You seem to want blacks to move forward but you chose to be with someone white. Don’t you think that is counterproductive? They are our enemies. In order for someone of African descent to be with someone from that group, you must posses some type of self hatred( whether you know it or not). BTW don’t take this as a personal attack. It’s your life :). I just don’t understand how a person of African descent who is all for the ‘advancement of their people’ can come to a decision to be involved in any intimate relationship with their enemies. This is a phenomenon I will never understand.
Also there is no need in trying to make Dave understand. (I highly doubt he ever will).
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Nana says
“You seem to want blacks to move forward but you chose to be with someone white. Don’t you think that is counterproductive? They are our enemies. In order for someone of African descent to be with someone from that group, you must posses some type of self hatred( whether you know it or not). BTW don’t take this as a personal attack. It’s your life”
Your statement is a perfect example of the brainwashing that occurs in America. No matter who she is married to, she is still black–her white husband doesn’t change who she is, or the experiences she goes through. When she meets people on the street, they wil see her brown skin first and treat her accordingly.
It statements like this that pisses me off, especially if it’s coming from black Americans–the land of the “one drop rule”, with people like Mariah Carey talking about how black she is and black Americans so quick to claim her because they like the fact that this dam near white woman says she’s black…hypocrisy at it’s best.
As a Jamaican, that is the one thing that I can’t stand about the US, the forced “group think” mentality between groups of people that are more similar to each other than either group believes… this crap seems like it will never end.
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Linda said:
“It statements like this that pisses me off, especially if it’s coming from black Americans–the land of the “one drop rule”, with people like Mariah Carey talking about how black she is and black Americans so quick to claim her because they like the fact that this dam near white woman says she’s black…hypocrisy at it’s best.”
Um what? Black Americans are claiming Mariah Carey? I didn’t know that. Are you going to provide proof because I don’t recall anybody black claiming her unless you are talking about YOUR personal friends.
“Your statement is a perfect example of the brainwashing that occurs in America.”
Can you elaborate on this?
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Nana? Your turn!
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“…the one thing that I can’t stand about the US, the forced “group think” mentality between groups of people that are more similar…”
**********************
Linda,
Are you suggesting that ALL black people “think” alike?
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@JT…Perfectly put!
@Linda…Thanx, and perfectly put as well!
@Nana…“I was with you until that part…I find it strange that you decided to be with a white man. You seem to want blacks to move forward but you chose to be with someone white. Don’t you think that is counterproductive? They are our enemies.”
No Sister, I don’t take it as a personal attack – everyone’s got a right to their own opinion. So you’re telling me, that everything I said before made sense to you – until I said who my husband was? That, one thing negates all the sense I made? Not only do I think that’s unfortunate, it makes me a little sad because I was raised to believe that WE, of all people, given our inhumane experiences – knew what humanity meant. It was a lesson I didn’t quite grasp when I was young – I absolutely hated ALL white people when I graduated high school (limited positive contact with them in the Deep South, certainly helped reinforce that). And when I went to college, at an HBCU in Alabama, it wasn’t much different (again, limited positive contact).
But when I graduated in the late 70s, and moved to DC, with no family or friends, I had some positive contact with them that changed the way I thought about white folk – I realized the difference between ALL, SOME and MOST. I call it growth.
You may find it strange, but I don’t. As I said up-thread, I really believe you can’t help who you love (and no – it wasn’t love at first sight. I don’t believe in that shit – at all). How is it counter-productive? As Linda said (Thanx again Linda!), I’m still, and always will be Black? They’re not my “enemies,” they’re human just like me. Horribly flawed, but human nonetheless. And it’s not my fault they want to act like they don’t know it. I’m certainly not gonna play the “nut role” for those who act like they don’t. Seeing as I know “from whence I came,” I call it like I see it. Too many millions gone for me not to.
“In order for someone of African descent to be with someone from that group, you must posses some type of self hatred( whether you know it or not).”
Don’t take this as a personal attack, but – Who says? You? Exactly what do you know about me – that I don’t already know about myself? Let me tell you something Sister – I’ve been livin’ with me for almost 56 years, and trust me – I know me. I can own, that growing up in SC from the mid-50s to the mid-70s involved a plethora of self-hatred, insecurity and PTSD (Post-Traumatic Slavery Disorder). But I went to work and, as I said earlier, I’ve grown – and continue to do so every day. IMHO, anyboy who doesn’t – is merely the walking dead.
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DL says – The “luck” that Europeans had was primarily an accident of geographic location. A relatively cold climate forced urbanization as the population grew. Virtually unlimited access to the oceans allowed and indeed demanded a sea-faring civilization develop for trade. Limited land area for the growing population forced innovation in agriculture which led to innovation in other areas and the industrial revolution.
Deb vents – ”So now you’re talking about Europe. Even though it was the agricultural innovations in America (STOLEN from Africa) about which I corrected you (remember your, “Virtually unlimited access to the oceans allowed and indeed demanded a sea-faring civilization develop for trade.”?). You’re being disingenuous Dave – and it shows.”
And people here wonder why others think that they are unable to read, much less think. The first paragraph obviously referred to the rise of civilization in Europe to anyone actually able to read AND think, but don’t let that slow you down Deb. For one, the Europeans already HAD a sea faring civilization before the Americas were discovered. If I had meant Americans I would have said Americans. I said Europeans – the geographic forces that pushed that civilization in particular directions. Europe was unsuited to a migratory culture such as existed across much (not all) of the rest of the planet.
This is as clueless as SomeGuy babbling about “empires” as if the definition of that word was the point. The point was that prior to world wide empires such as the British Empire, they were limited to contiguous land areas or short water crossings. The Mongol Empire was contiguous. The Roman Empire was contiguous around a smaller body of water.
Deb says – “Not being a part of the Atlantic trade” does not absolve you of any responsibility for its continued effects, seeing as you and yours had the “privilege” to willingly immigrate “on the decks” of a ship, as opposed to, unwillingly immigrating “in the bowels” of one (merely one of the many privileges you and yours enjoy, and continue to enjoy, due to your “similarity in appearance”
I don’t recall asking to be born here, which doesn’t mean it didn’t happen I guess, right? Not many immigrated to the US for happy reasons. However, wherever I am born, I can choose to move someplace that I think better suits me – just as you are. By the way many Americans and Australians were forcibly deported by the UK, unwillingly immigrating in the bowels of a ship. I’m pretty sure conditions were not as harsh as they were on slave ships, but still no picnic. Still, I have the exact same responsibility for its continued effects that you do, as one of 312,853,457 people as of this moment.
Deb says – “Some of YOU might not have survived it, but trust me – back then (as opposed to now) – it most definitely would’ve changed. The Stono Rebellion I mentioned earlier, was the largest rebellion mounted by slaves against slave owners in colonial America. ”
So why didn’t they revolt en mass during the the time that much of the Confederate’s men were engaged fighting the Union? Sure it would have changed but not before the economics of slavery were changed. The Stono rebellion was TINY. Such a way you have of dismissing the deaths of umpteen 10’s of thousands of young men and boys fighting and dying in the Union army when you . Black and white thinking, that sums up this blog completely.
“WE did that Dave – alone.”
Then all those Union boys fought and died for nothing. Thanks for the clarification.
Deb says – Dave, I could say the same two things about you – would it be true? I know what I want, and I will accept nothing less – OWN YOUR SHIT! . I don’t need a sympathetic ear, I need accountability – from the owning, to the truly repairing. And if that’s not forthcoming, “the second coming” will do.”
I own my “own (redacted)”. Nobody else does. I’m not about to go owning yours or anyone elses. I’m willing to help, but I’m not about to be browbeat into it by your or any other self-righteous self-proclaimed victim.
I leave the rest of Deb’s nonsense alone unless someone insists that I reply to it.
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“This is as clueless as SomeGuy babbling about “empires” as if the definition of that word was the point.”
Scroll up. Read my posts. Where exactly did I mention “empires” ANYWHERE in my posts?
I know to some White folks, all us NEGROES look alike, but damn, this is TEXT!
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Sorry SomeGuy, it was Sam, and yes, I confused Sam and SomeGuy.
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Can someone white please tell me how black racism hurts white people as a whole? Lets say everyone black all 12 or 13% say we hate you .Does it stop you from getting the loan ? The job ? We can see what white racism has and is continuing to do to people of color . So please tell me how black racism is hurting to poor white race?
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Whatever Dave…
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Lmao @ SomeGuy’s comment.
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@KhalidX:
‘Can someone white please tell me how black racism hurts white people as a whole? Lets say everyone black all 12 or 13% say we hate you .Does it stop you from getting the loan ? The job ? We can see what white racism has and is continuing to do to people of color . So please tell me how black racism is hurting to poor white race?”
—
Great point. It is the combining of racism with POWER that gives it such a huge impact.
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@JT…You and me both!
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KhalidX: “Can someone white please tell me how black racism hurts white people as a whole?”
It depends on how the hate is expressed. A black person only need deal with 7 or so white people to spread that hate around. Say that person that unfairly lost her job in the federal government following an interview. Suppose she hadn’t had a change of heart. How many lives could she have affected negatively in the process? dozens? hundreds?
No doubt there are white racists in a similar position in the government that haven’t been kicked out yet that should be.
There is also the issue of density – if black people are concentrated into particular geographic areas, they would have a great deal of power to hurt the whites or others also in that region, and maybe they do so I don’t know as I live in an area with few blacks but an increasing large Mexican population that recently lost its minority status.
Fundamentally though the hate on all sides would cause as much psychic poisoning of the atmosphere of the country as anything else.
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Linda,
Are you suggesting that ALL black people “think” alike?
Linda says,
No, I mean that both black and white Americans hold prejudice / stereotypes about each other and have such distrust / dislike of each other (as a group), with each side believing that they are right and their version of the truth is the more factual…
there is a strong, underlying policy for each member to stick to the script and conform to standards…those people who step out will hear about it.
one example: People dating outside of their race are seen as not comforming to normal standard and they each catch hel from people in their so called “racial” group…
I do understand the history and mindset behind it all, but I find it silly since the two groups have been sleeping with each other consensually for quite a while in America, but this is a subject that still upsets many people.
it’s not like this in the West Indies…I’m not saying that people don’t hold prejudices against other groups but the disdain is not as strong as it is in America between black/white.
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it’s not like this in the West Indies…I’m not saying that people don’t hold prejudices against other groups but the disdain is not as strong as it is in America between black/white.
That sounds like paradise for the kerchief heads the way you present it. Too bad there isn’t enough white behinds to slobber over. Unless you go to the tourist areas.
there is a strong, underlying policy for each member to stick to the script and conform to standards…those people who step out will hear about it.
This is nonsense. If anything, they will tell you where to go if you don’t like whatever their choices are, be it lifestyle, marital, romantic partners etc. They don’t give a hoot, regardless of the percieved ‘right’ or wrong’ or or what anyone thinks. That is what I like about Yankees, always entertaining, especially when someone is at odds with some of their beliefs!! This is in the real world, not on the internet. Lord knows what animus they are actually harbouring but remains unspoken!
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@ Linda
Do you have an opinion why the disdain in the Islands doesn’t match that of the US?
Also, is the white privilege dynamic as strong in the WI as it is in the US, or is there little to no difference regarding “privilege” between blacks and whites?
“…the two groups have been sleeping with each other consensually for quite a while in America, but this is a subject that still upsets many people.”
True –
I believe it bothers some blacks (I could be incorrect) because of the unequal/uncomfortable power dynamic that RACISM brings to the equation/relationship. If racism were non-existent interracial intimacy would be pretty much an non-issue, imo.
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Well….you do dump on us “Crackers” alot. Almost as if these flaws you are trying to help us overcome are not prevalent in all ethnicities. You are mostly right about the things you post ( i say mostly only because i have not read all of your posts) but these problems exist in people all over the world and in every race. The methods may vary but everyone has this disease. I love that pic…looks just like me hehe.
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“Herneith
This is nonsense. If anything, they will tell you where to go if you don’t like whatever their choices are, be it lifestyle, marital, romantic partners etc. They don’t give a hoot, regardless of the percieved ‘right’ or wrong’ or or what anyone thinks.”
I don’t think so, Perception is the key word in your sentence
As an outsider looking in, I haven’t found this to be the way it is…from what I’ve seen amongst my black American associates, there is many cultural standards that people adhere to and dating (seriously) outside of race has been one of them…just because the media shows so called celebrities running around interracially doesn’t mean that everyday people are OK with it.
At work, my co-workers still divide themselves into the “black” table and “white” table during lunch…snarky comments still get made if it is “perceived” that someone is sitting at the opposite table one time too many…
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“Matari
Do you have an opinion why the disdain in the Islands doesn’t match that of the US?
Also, is the white privilege dynamic as strong in the WI as it is in the US, or is there little to no difference regarding “privilege” between blacks and whites?”
Linda says,
Oh boy, your question is a hard one for me…different history I guess.
the West Indies, being a former European colony, has an almost schitzophrenic view when it comes to cultural views on race/ethnicity (in my opinion)….afrocentric married to eurocentric
In my opinion, the disdain for whites in the West Indies is not as strong because white West Indians are a minority; they no longer hold the power like they used to and they are assimilated into the cultural norms…such as “white” Jamaicans can speak patois just like everyone else…
West Indians viewpoints are shaped by colourism and class…these viewpoints are held by black/coloured/white West Indians; so there are no seperate “white cultural viewpoints” to be pushed onto black people like in the US.
….money/class is the real divider in the WI and that also runs along the colour/racial lines…so dislike between black/coloured /white/asian WI are shaped by colourism, money, and class prejudice.
as for white Americans/foreign whites, they are viewed as just that…”foreigners” and as such, it is assumed that they are tourists or just passing through.
They are outsiders who have no power and cannot impact our culture one way or another, so there is no need to dislike them and they are quickly put in check if they step out of bounds…if anything, due to colourism, some people will fawn over them (whites) like they are special and others will treat them like dung on the bottom of their shoes…
but class is important, and whites in the West Indies are members of the upper class 5% (rich /hold power) who financially impact the islands…
so as for privilege dynamics compared to US, I need to think on your question somewhat, so I will get back to you.
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Negril was very good to me last year. My biggest spender sends me 450USD a week. Jackpot!
Speaking specifically for Jamaica, this is not the case. Most whites left the island with their money in the ’70s due to fear of the island turning communist, with the rest being wiped out in the mid -90’s financial sector meltdown.
This is how we deal with white people. Speaks with a Jamaican accent? OK, listen some more. Middle – class or Upper – class idioms (almost never ghetto)? If middle class , high five, else if upper class, defeat him, and take his womenfolk with us.
If they don’t speak with a Jamaican accent well then, smile profusely, and be very polite. Chances are, the person is a foreign national employed to a large corporation (and the simple looking black guy next is his boss…..) and is thus very powerful. As in, the top detectives get sent in if he as much as loses his car keys.
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SatanForce,
all they did was hop over to the Caymens…
don’t forget Butch Stewart and those like him…they are not gone, they are just low key
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I don’t wish to remain off topic anymore, just to add
I found this to be interesting about Jamaica and it’s “white” minorities (made last year)
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@ Linda
Thanks!
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Is this blog “racist?”
As in, is the author of this blog “racist?”
As in, does the author of this blog profess a belief that the “black collective” is superior to the “white collective?”
Of course not…
Abagond can’t even be said to believe in a “black collective” in the first place. Claiming “whites” to be morally inferior isn’t equivalent to claiming that “whites” are morally inferior to “blacks.” Abagond has said the former, but not the latter. Frankly, there is little in Abagond’s writing that reflects any kind of affinity for the “black collective” or black persons in particular.
Largely, this blog serves as a mechanism to maximize Abagond’s autonomy. Already on display is a tremendous amount of self-evident “freedom of conscious.” In the “Hall of Freedoms,” the ability to speak one’s mind openly and freely is dang near the top of the list of freedoms most coveted. Perhaps, the very top.
Abagond is mainly in a battle for his “freedom” against OTHER LIBERATIONISTS. Mostly white, these rival liberationists are easily manipulated by charges of “racism” which can almost certainly encompass ANY THOUGHT OR ACT uttered by a white liberal.
In short, the American blacks’ hustle has univeral appeal because it has real global effectiveness. Abagond is merely taking advantage of “racism” to maximize his personal autonomy.
Could you ever see him being “homies” with Tyrone?
Liberationist first, only “black” when necessary.
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@ Thordaddy
You should have stopped after this and resisted the urge to use this portion of your post (which was uncharacteristically intelligent) to go off on yet another “tinfoil hat semantics argument.”
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I’m a white, long-time reader who never comments. I don’t think this blog is racist.
As far as I can see, all of the morally reprehensible things Abagond accuses white people of are happening all around me on a daily basis. The overwhelming majority of our rich and powerful are stupid and white, and either that’s the most unlikely co-incidence ever, or we live in a racist society.
If white people would rather yell at him for pointing it out than try to change for the better, then they are immoral.
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Franklin,
You usually won’t write anything to which one could intelligently respond, but you can’t be so naive as to believe that only white people use “racism” to maximize their autonomy?
What makes you think Abagond isn’t doing exactly this?
WHY WOULDN’T a black person use “racism” to maximize their autonomy?
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Because
a) us paleskins am much better at it
b) doing so would give us the legitimation to do so,
c) will cause the black person lots of trouble.
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@ Thordaddy
First of all, starting your post off with a long winded version of “I know you are but what am I?” doesn’t pass for wit. Second of all, with all your nonsensical ramblings of liberation and that new word you obviously learned (autonomy), you want to deflect away from white problems via Red Herrings. Lastly, the whole accusation about Abagond “only writing for the sake of his own success” for his own gain is both unfounded and hilariously paranoid. Maybe in your own mind. The reality though, is that you are incorrect, and are just pulling any and all notions out of your rear.
I’ve noticed that you have a habit (or should I say “tactic”) of always “cleverly” introducing multiple complicated issues (spouted off in a simplistic manner) in your posts. All so you have more than one chance to steer the conversation away from the main topic at hand. In order to avoid tacking the aforementioned white problems that are a detriment to everyone. The only problem is that you think we don’t see it, despite it being so horribly obvious and typical of a dishonest white.
And you proved Bacon’s point for him…
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Franklin,
All you are saying to me is that you aren’t really engaged in the conversation. In your mind, it is good enough to say that “this blog isn’t racist,” end of discussion. And it is even better to attempt to mock those that say that “this blog isn’t racist because its author isn’t racist because said author is a LIBERATIONIST.”
Perhaps you are completely unaware of the term “liberationist?” If so, you have little credibility in commenting on the political happenings in America or the Western world.
You also seem oblivious to the FACT that this blog IS EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE of Abagond maximizing his autonomy.
Talk about being blind to what is purposely put in front of your own face.
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All you are saying to me is that you aren’t really engaged in the conversation. In your mind, it is good enough to say that “this blog isn’t racist,” end of discussion.
Some times simplicity is best.
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Herneith,
Not when the implied desire of the question is to solicit an answer as to WHY this blog isn’t racist.
In simple terms…
Because the author is a liberationist and that is what he advocates.
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@ thordaddy
I think what you are trying to say in your own convoluted way is that you think Abagond is an “Uncle Tom”.
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SomeGuy,
No…
Actually, I’m saying Abagond is an exemplar of “black liberation” who is successfully confining many of his rivals to his stated beliefs.
“Uncle Toms” don’t really exist in his liberated world.
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Deb thinks Obama is an “Uncle Tom”, and Colin Powell as well.
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@ thordaddy
I am not really grasping what you are getting at then. What is this “liberation” you speak of?
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Lara… Are you serious? You have every right to have an opinion like the cliche saying that everyone has an a$$hole. It just seems that yours is placed on your face. Now, seriously.. It is your right to FEEL that this blog is racist to whites. My opinion is that this blog is especially for racist like you. You seem to be mentally challenged or maybe just young. I am not stating that you seem mentally challenged to be facetious, I find it odd and not very bright for someone who feels it is a waste of time to discuss race with black people, to spend that “wasted time” on a blog that they feel is racist towards them. Not very smart..hmmm. AND the comment that blacks don’t like school is reflective of a poor upbringing and/ or education.
Why do you think non- whites go about in their daily lives thinking whites are generally nice? Are we thinking of the mass genocides of Africans, Native Americans, Indians, Asians etc. The wars like the crusades, the bidding of the dead bodies in the colosseum for food to eat, major world wars spear headed by Europeans, Giving small pox in blankets to women and children, spreading disease internationally( No other culture has had bubonic plague.EVER) Segregation, Apartheid, rape of women, children, Lynching innocent women, men and children, burning little girls in churches, human trafficking(Slave trade), destroying ecosystems which eventually destroys the culture and people that surround that ecosystem which leads to starvation to those people (Read ‘Unbowed” autobiography of Wangari Maathai) If you can read because it seems you may have problems comprehending due to your obvious challenge. …
Rosewood, Tulsa riots, Vietnam, Cambodia, Iraq, Libya, there are many more countries that I can name destroyed by Europeans AND many other atrocities that I can name.. I don’t have all week. I can not say this of any other people on the planet because it will be untrue. If you speak of crime within races… Whites did that big… Hitler killed 6 million people who looked like him…yes they were Jewish but they were white too. No other culture has murdered their own and others in the way Europeans have. It is the truth. Maybe its because of a reason we have to research and examine.
If the truth hurts so bad change the way you do things.. Stop hating and learn to love. The xenophobia has to stop. Europeans have historically been weak thats why they kill everything in sight from trees, animals, rivers to straight up human babies that don’t look like them. They also put a price on EVERYTHING. Are you aware why we are in the economic state we are today.. Who is running the world? The world is chaotic and most people live in dire situations. REMEMBER. non- whites have been here for millions of years before whites and look the earth is still here.. that says something. If non whites have lived like we lived today all of those years.. Hun we won’t be here discussing ANYTHING. The intentional systematic insidious culture of the European has and is destroying humanity as we speak. I say this with L-O-V-E despite the fact that I replaced your mouth with a dirty orifice in the beginning. However if we all white, black, asian, etc ignore the reality of the destruction from this new race or culture(whites) we will become extinct in less then a century. For your information Africans started civilization,not because they were black because they were first. They built the pyramids and introduce math and science to humanity.. research Ishango bone, Study great greeks like Homer who learned a great deal from Black African Egyptians.. who built the first libraries.. Africans love education because we gave it to the world along with our native indian and asian brother and sisters.
Pyramids are all over the world…research..not google.. go to the library. we all have to get to a point where we respect the culture that came before us because it is the key to the future. They all managed to get along so well that they all built great temples to the gods that we ALL can’t recall and whites have no idea where to begin to think pertaining to masonry of Pyramids and other great structures in Africa and South America. I believe our people have loss consciousness, nature has shut us off from the great truths because if that knowledge gets into the hands of Europeans…Oh Lawd! there goes the WHOLE UNIVERSE!!!!
Please go sit down somewhere and read a few books, you are ignorant and can be cured with an education.
BTW, I have plenty of white nice friends who understand, I love them all and can’t imagine my life without the diversity that I am surrounded with … with them I don’t see race, I see humanity.
“To be black and conscious in America is to be in a constant state of rage”
-James Baldwin
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“Deb thinks Obama is an “Uncle Tom”, and Colin Powell as well.”
@Dave Lister…My first inclination was to continue to take JT’s advice and not engage you – at all. However, I don’t appreciate you twisting my words to say what YOU want them to say. I will give your intellectual dishonesty no legitimacy by allowing your bullshit to pass. So let me clear, THIS is EXACTLY what I said – and I meant it:
“I can’t speak for the reasons either – I didn’t vote for him. Nor would I have voted for Colin Powell. Speaking for me only – I’ve had quite enough of society-identified, Black “politicians” who turn out to be carbon copies of the lying, self-enriching, murdering white ones we’ve endured since this country was founded, thank you very much.”
That you didn’t understand it, is no fault of mine.
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I think I understood it very well, Deb, especially as you failed to point out exactly where I misunderstood it. Nothing is ever your fault though, I agree with that – not even when you give your own “intellectual dishonesty … legitimacy”.
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@Dave Lister…Yeah, I’m sure you did – ’cause, as JT so aptly pointed out upthread – you know e’erything.
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Except where i say I don’t, Deb. Nice logic as usual.
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@ Dave Lister
Does (rightly/wrongly) debating moot historical points diminish the degree which you should account for the advantages you have in society? Should it be as uncomplicated as the “The sin of fathers aren’t the sins of the son/daughter?” Your effort to debate history/social psychology is a diversion tactic. Dismissing evidence allows you to perpetuate a myth: that we are unbound by what happened before us.
It isn’t difficult to conclude that there is nothing that Deb or i could ever say or references to provide to prove otherwise. Facts are incompatible with an illusion.
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abagond talks the truth period. Being in a school full of white girls, – today one said she will kill me and punched me, then her friend denying everything that happened. He speaks a whole lot, obviously white people cannot own up and say sorry and genuinely change thier ways (even if married to a black man/woman). Thye honestly see no wrong and tbh i actually think many of them verge on being physcopath
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No, JT, I have never stated that the past hasn’t affected the present. However, that is different than the claims that Deb and others make that whites as a group need to somehow own and atone for the past. Even you should be able to tell the difference, and responses to such claims are not a diversion. If you don’t want to talk about inheritable sins, don’t bring them up.
Now, if you want to talk about barriers to people currently, whether or not they are due to the past, I’m all ears. If you want to talk about legacy preferences, the power of money, and the damage caused by racial division I’m all ears, and will work wherever I can can to end this. If I were a boss, I would bend over backwards to make sure than my management was not impacted by the different ethnic backgrounds of those working for me. When I see problems I want them solved – though not every roadblock is going to be due to race. My wife was once asked in an interview about having kids – a major no no these days. I’ve been interviewed by Chinese who were basically interested to know if I was going to sacrifice the rest of my waking life for the company. I’ve been told by foreigners that Americans, of whatever race, are lazy – they don’t want to work hard (which in that case meant 8-8 M-Su 365 days a year.
Again, to be clear, if you are making statements that current “whites” need to do something to atone for past crimes committed by someone else, you’ll get an argument, just as you would give one in a reverse scenario. Playing the “blame game” has never solved a single problem on the planet.
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Dobbydoo, my daughter, a petite blond, attends a heavily Mexican school. She gets that kind of thing quite a bit, which worries us. However, she also recently (at 13) got her junior black belt in TKD which has given her quite a bit more confidence.
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@ Dave Lister
That is so not true. What in the world do you think courts and judges are for?
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“People should be judged by the content of their character and not the color of their skin.”
-MLK
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@Mark:
You must be a white liberal.
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Civil courts are used by people playing that game, but I’m not sure that the results would be called solving a problem.
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It just confuses me that in order to not be considered racist white people have to ignore the colour of people’s skin and not generalise about race, yet if someone of another race does those things in relation to white people then it’s not racist. Is that a double standard? I don’t know.
I don’t think your blog is racist, per se, just a tad over-generalised. Then again, I’m not American so maybe what you’re saying is perfectly legitimate. Perhaps it’s a cultural rather than a “white” thing.
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Um, yeah, this blog is NOT racist however, I don’t agree with everything you write down though. I agree with Kitty 100% It was Blacks who discovered civilization because we were The fIrst like Kitty said. We, Blacks, are the original human beings. Adam and Eve were Black and the Bible proves it. The Garden of Eden was in Africa.
All the Biblical characters were Black such as Abraham, Issac, Sarah, King David, King Solomon, etc. All the Old Testament people were Black and was writtten in the modern day ”Middle East” and ”North Africa”, which is still part of the ”Middle East”. The White man made up the ‘MIddle East” to cover up that the true Biblical descendants of Jacob were Blacks. It was until the New Testament that Whites aka Romans came and they ruled over the Isrealites. Then the Isrealites’ temple was destroyed and the Isrealites fled to Africa. No, they wouldn’t teach this at school because this is the truth.
And Whites don’t like this blog because Abagond tells them the cold hard truth: Their whole lives are lie, that ALOT OF THEM NOT ALL OF THEM are still racist and this blog gives them insight on how people(Not all of them but a lot of us think) other races perceive them. They want us people of color thinking that they are the best thing that walked on two legs and this blog tells them that not all of us (POC, I’m Black by the way)think so. I know I don’t think so.
And I Iove this blog! Keep on writing, Abagond
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Is this blog racist? To fight racism you have to talk the language of the people who are racist against you. So that’s a racialized language. So that’s argument four.
One to three are basically the same argument. Let me respond to argument three. I’ve read some post through time on this blog not all, but if you always give the same image of “whites” then you don’t even have to say all whites. I’m not saying you should a write a praise the white men blog entry, but this blog is what it is.
Five, the tone. The tone is a bit angry, but if you feel like you have a right to be angry you should express it.
So it this blog racist? I see why it can be perceived that way. Does that mean that you’re racist? I don’t really believe that, but you do come across as prejudiced. Because you’re talking the racialized language you’re not giving lead to a constructive argument rather an aggresive one. But sometimes you have to be aggressive before you can be constructive.
Just look at the palestinian isrealian conflict. Constructivism doens’t work there as yet. And it also good to be aggressive to some extent cause if you reach your goal for 80% and you give up cause you’re satisfied, you’ll miss the 20% injustice. Concerning the economic crisis in Europe you see that as well. If the financial system is safe for the next twenty years or so we won’t change what really needs to be changed.
1. Generalizations: To make any general statement about whites is stereotyping and therefore racist.
2. Lack of colour-blindness: To see them as white means I am seeing them according to the colour of their skin, not the content of their character.
3. The “all whites” argument: Even though I am not so brainless as to ever say “all whites” are anything, the “all” gets read in anyway. Even when I say “many whites”, “some whites” or “most whites”.
4. Divisiveness: To bring up race at all is to create division and hatred.
5. Tone: To say anything bad about whites is read as hatred against whites.
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So how is an image of a cracker, not racist? If a white person put a picture of watermelon up on a blog about African Americans… what would you think how would you take that, how would that make you FEEL? I think people have the right to spew out whatever hate they choose, but to pretend this kind of rhetoric is not divisive or racist is just ignorant.
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Abagond you’re such an inspiration. I came across your blog perchance, I’ve read the whole posts and honestly you and your lofty,wise, intelligent, coherent,sublime, proud, olympian,surpassing I can really go on and on and on and on….. commenters (not all, of cause) really inspired me.
Indeed you’re an idol, thank Good Heavens that we’ve people like you. I have this little cousin whom i had to give emotional support for what she was going through on a daily basis and I had to do it all alone, since society doesn’t really help at all and we happen to live in a predominantly white country and area, but when i found out about your blog, i really discovered a precious gift; ” Knowledge is Power” you know!
And after almost a year now that i introduced my little cousin to your blog, i can see that lately her self confidence and her pride have been rapidly increasing; she’s enriched her knowledge, vocabulary etc in defending herself from racist comments, the so-called jokes, microaggressions etc. I’m so proud of her and the credit goes to you, so please keep up the good job. Don’t get discouraged that’s only what those who call you racist what to attain; they want you to get discouraged, they are good at that, so please don’t give them that satisfaction!
I just thought of letting you know the great impact that your blog had on my little cousin’s life ( and mine of course, because i was gradually getting tired of it all, not untill i found out your blog). Keep up the good job!
Finally I have one request, could you kindly do a post on this topic “Census and the Bible: Was Judas Iscariot black?”
Thanks.
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Thank you for the encouragement! I added ““Census and the Bible: Was Judas Iscariot black?” to my list.
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Ok thanks.
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@abagond
I love this blog! It has been so enlightening and educating. I have not once been offended by any “whites” comments on here for two reasons…1. I know that I am not in the category that is described and therefore feel it would be ridiculous to take offense to something that does not apply to me. 2. I am humbled by the ones that I realize I am in the category because I want to learn and change. I know that I am only one person and that is not enough to change the world we live in…but I want to do whatever I can to help. I respect your blogs and I respect your reasons for doing it! It takes a strong person to step up and do what you have done and I am so honored to have come across this site. KUDDOS from a former Unknowing Racist and know a self proclaimed Enlightened Racist…I feel I am well on my way to become free from racism thanks to you!! 🙂
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Isn’t making generalized statements about any group of people that includes people who deviate from those stereotypes prejudiced by definition?
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Has it occurred to any of you with “anti-white” sentiment that some of us light skinned people do not benefit from living in a society of “white privilege” because it makes us sick to our stomachs?
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Unfortunately, us black folk do not have the luxury of feeling sick to our stomachs whilst living in a white supremacist society. It is what it is.
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Emma, the point has never been that every single White person is cheering on White Supremacy and prejudice. But what “White Privilege” means is that even though you may be sick to your stomach, you will still be seen as more competent, more attractive, more intelligent, than a comparable Black person.
Also, although it’s not always explained in every comment, many “anti-White” sentiments are meant as anti-White Supremacy, or anti-White System, not anti-White individuals.
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King, it is good that you pointed out that the theme is more anti- white supremacy rather than anti-white.
It is unfortunate that some readers equate the two.
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Facts can be unfortunate.
Are you saying it is fortunate (ie, “not unfortunate”)?
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Yes, it makes sense people equate the two. It is fact that people do. It can still be an unfortunate fact.
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