Birthers (2008- ) are those who believe that President Obama was not born in America and therefore according to the constitution should not be president.
Even for a conspiracy theory it is strange. As the Angry Black Bitch points out:
Since when has the American political system been manipulated to clear the way for a person of color to seize power?
Early in 2008 it started as a Clinton dirty trick, an Internet rumour spread by Hillary Clinton’s people. She was running against Obama at the time for the nomination of the Democratic Party.
Birthers demanded to know why Obama was not showing his birth certificate:
- Did it show that he was born in Kenya, where his father is from?
- That his race was white?
- That his true middle name is Muhammad?
What was he hiding?
In June 2008 Obama posted his birth certificate on the Internet. In October the state of Hawaii confirmed that it was his true birth certificate. Obama perhaps could have twisted their arm in 2008, but not in 1961 when he was a few days old and the same facts appeared in two Honolulu newspapers.
So what was he hiding? Nothing.
That should have ended the matter. It did not.
Birthers said it was not good enough: this was just the short form of the birth certificate, where was the long form, the one the doctor signed?! What was he hiding!?
Hawaii rarely gives out the long form. Because the short form is good enough for the courts. It is good enough to get a passport. It is good enough even to become president. But it is not good enough for the Birthers.
In August 2009 a Kenyan birth certificate for Obama appeared. It did not look like one from that time and place – in fact, it looked strangely Australian. Even more damning, it said the “Republic of Kenya” before there even was a Republic of Kenya!
By March 2010 a fourth of Americans believed that Obama was foreign-born.
In April 2011 Donald Trump, a self-important businessman who would be president, started pushing the issue.
By April 27th it got so bad that Obama said at a press conference:
… when the Republican House had put forward a budget that will have huge consequences potentially to the country … the dominant news story wasn’t about these huge, monumental choices that we’re going to have to make as a nation. It was about my birth certificate.
That day Obama made the long form public:
What was he hiding? Nothing.
That should end the matter. It probably will not.
If Birthers were driven by fact and reason, they would have stopped back in 2008.
They would sooner twist facts about where he is from and give up common sense than admit that a black man is the true American president. Deep down many White Americans just do not see blacks as Real Americans. What else am I supposed to conclude from all this?
– Abagond, 2011.
See also:
Thank you for this post – I’ve become so sick and tired of those insane freaks and their incessant whining about conspiracy theories. ‘Birthers’ are no different from ‘Birchers’, the members of the John Birch Society…
Sickening scum.
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“They would sooner twist facts about where he is from and give up common sense than admit a black man is the true American president.”
Considering white Americans were the ones who voted him into power, I think you’re the one who is twisting facts and missing common sense.
While I find the whole birther conspiracy to be more than ridiculous, I think it stems from the fact that his parents were born outside of America, and that it took so long for him to provide proof of. Going out on a limb there.
Very original of you to spin this into a racial issue though.
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White Americans did not vote Obama to power
55% of white voters vote for Mccain 43% of white voters vote for Obama and most non-white voters vote for Obama
look it up!
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and without that 43% Obama would not have been president.
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@ SOS
1. Most whites voted AGAINST Obama. By a landslide (56%). Get it straight.
2. Six other presidents have had foreign parents – where are the six other Birther conspiracies?
3. He provided the short form which is all the law requires. Why should he have to provide more just to satisfy conspiracy theorists?
If I were Obama I would not have have released the long form. Let the Republican Party split over it and go down as a pack of fools. Or better yet, let them nominate a Birther candidate for president and then release it.
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All I said was that without the white vote, Obama wouldn’t have been in power, that’s all.
Considering the Republicans have a large core of white people who would vote for them if a computer was the leader, I’d say it was hardly a landslide.
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If it’s not one thing, it’s another with these racist people.
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Look, I agree with you for the most part. Obama shouldn’t have had to produce his certificate. The fact that birthers think he could have somehow slipped into presidency without citenzship is pretty funny.
I say Trump should produce a receipt for that hair piece, while they’re at it a high school diploma from Palin.
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All RIGHT!!!! Let the racist, derailing diatribes begin!! Doesn’t take much to rattle their cages, eh?
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However, you cannot say 56% of whites voted AGAINST Obama. They voted FOR Mcain. You cannot conclude based on the polls that 56% of whites are racist and 43% are not. Just because someone didn’t vote for Obama does not make them racist, and vice versa. The world is not as “black and white” as that.
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These people make me sick! I don’t know if it’s due to racism but they hate Obama from day 1 and have done everything in their power to stop him from doing his job and being effective.
The Republicans are disgusting, they messed up the country 10 years ago, did nothing to fix ANYTHING, made a sorry attempt as they were leaving when the economy crashed in 2008…talk about sore losers…they try to use anything to discredit anyone in power who they don’t like, look at what they did to Bill Clinton…
and of course, the white American sheeps (people) conveniently forget all this and focus on bulls_it…
I and every other immigrant knows that the American constitution says that if 1 parent is American (and I mean born in USA), any child born to that person anywhere in the world, is considered an American….these sheep don’t know the rules to their own country….
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This sounds familiar. Like – Achtung!!! Halt! Show me your Aryan certificate! (shouts the SS thug).
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But here’s the thing…
Would Trump support any of his children if they ran for public office? Would he question their citizenship and school records? I mean, which of his baby-mama’s were born in the US? Not first wife Ivana. Not current wife Melania. Surely that means Don Jr., Ivanka, Eric and Barron can’t be citizens? I mean that is the criteria he’s using to judge Barack Obama, isn’t it? Why has no one called him on that?
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@olufemi: 😀
Yeah, show me that you are 100% aryan germanische blonde teuton! Jawohl!
The truth is that all these guys are still so shocked that a n****r walked into the WHITE House that they just can not get over it: “There must be a foreign jewish taleban conspiracy here!! Arrest that foreigner right now, you know, that guy who pretends to be the president!!”
But then again they stole the election before by forging the Flordia votes so…
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“Surely that means Don Jr., Ivanka, Eric and Barron can’t be citizens?”
hullaballoo,
in the US Constitution, anyone born to a US Citizen parent anywhere in the world, and said parent was born in the US (like Trump), then baby is automatically eligible for US Citizenship.
Anyone born on US soil, is automatically a US American citizen regardless of where you’re parents are from…
As far as the Trump kids, they are citizens because they were born here in US, just like Obama…
I believe for the presidency, the candidate has to have 1 US born, American Citizen as a parent and be born in the US in order to be eligible to run…
These details have already come up and that’s why the lawsuits against Obama have been dismissed….
but like I said, most American people don’t know these laws and these sheep just follow along…
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Idk if racism has much to do with the birther conspiracy, but political differences seem to be the primary culprit here. Some conservatives really hate liberals and vice versa.
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Sez the current interpretation of the 14 Amendment. Unless it is changed to a sane one, this will be the end of America.
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Not exactly. He may be born outside of the US, as long as at least one of the parents is an American citizen.
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@nonserviam
GTFOHWTBS!!! We’ve already talked about why whites have no reason to fear living in a country where they are the majority-minority. I gave you countless examples where whites are politically, socially, and economically sound as a minority. You tell me they are barely democracies. I point out that the countries you listed, like Zimbabwe, aren’t exactly known for their democracy and you still go on fear mongering. You couldn’t even answer me when I asked you motives POC have that will disadvantage whites and you couldn’t. Stop trying to spread your paranoia. Nobody is after white ppl
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The birth certificate isn’t an issue. Possible dual citizenship is.
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“berthas”
When it gets to where non-whites and other disadvantaged whites have to tutor those who claim to be descendants of the so-called founders of this country on how things run, then the times ARE changing.
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This isn’t paranoia, Cynic. This is a simple matter of fact: demography is destiny. Numbers are of the matter (Enoch Powell). The more third-worlders settle in this country, the more it becomes like the third world. With all that this entails.
That is ironic, being posted on a blog wholly dedicated to showing how undeserving of existence white people are.
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“The birth certificate isn’t an issue. Possible dual citizenship is.”
Back when Obama was born, Kenya was part of the British Empire, who at the time I believe did not allow dual citizenship…
Countries Today Which Prohibit Dual Citizenship:
Austria, Belgium, Brunei, Burma, Chile, China, Denmark, Ecuador, Fiji, Finland, Germany, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Iran, Japan, Kenya, Kiribati, Korea, Malaysia, Mauritius, Nepal, Norway, Papua New Guinea, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Romania, Singapore, Solomon Islands, Thailand, Venezuela, Vietnam, Zimbabwe.
As far as Obama is concerned, He would have to give up and renounce (go before a judge) his US citizenship in order to even be eligible for Kenyan citizenship
Because these same (lame) excuses keep being presented as a reason for Obama’s “ineligibility” is the reason why Abagond and other people are wondering if racism is behind this whole nonsense…because questioning Obama’s birth makes no sense…
The Birthers are trying to turn fiction into fact and all the answers are already written down in black and white…and speaking of white, his white American mother was enough to make him eligible
This is the reason why the Birthers are Idiots….they have no knowledge of the their own countrys rules/policies…
I don’t expect them to know other country’s (Kenya or Great Britians) laws but Google is available for everyone.
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The most jaw dropping revelation to me, thus far, has been how genuinely stupid Donald Trump actually is. I can now see that having a “talent” for making business deals doesn’t necessarily make one intelligent or informed.
I mean, just one example:
http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/donald-trump-proves-hes-clueless-roe-v-wad
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@ nonserviam
“That is ironic, being posted on a blog wholly dedicated to showing how undeserving of existence white people are.
Showing the consistently unrecognized problems of whites is the same thing as not wanting them to exist? Only someone with selective literacy would say something as stupid as this.
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“The most jaw dropping revelation to me, thus far, has been how genuinely stupid Donald Trump actually is.”
Isn’t that so disheartening…I am so angry with him right now, I used to really like him and admired him as a businessman (despite his obvious character as a loud-mouth)
I am so disappointed that he has lost his intregrity in his pursuit of running for president…it’s also disheartening to see how little he cares about the black vote, he has to know that anyone of colour is going to rally around Obama (whether they like him or not) because he is embarrassing the office of the US Presidency, Obama and himself (Trump) in front of the world…
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LMAO @ this:
nonserviam
believe for the presidency, the candidate has to have 1 US born, American Citizen as a parent and be born in the US in order to be eligible to run
Not exactly. He may be born outside of the US, as long as at least one of the parents is an American citizen.
…and this:
nonserviam
The birth certificate isn’t an issue. Possible dual citizenship is.
😆
Franklin called it what it is!
* wipes coffee off of monitor and keyboard *
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To Sepulture13:
Not exactly. He may be born outside of the US, as long as at least one of the parents is an American citizen.
No… having a father who is a US citizen does not automatically confer US citizenship to a child born outside of the US. This has been quite an issue for children born to US GIs overseas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#Birth_abroad_to_one_United_States_citizen
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To Abagond:
Deep down many White Americans just do not see blacks as Real Americans. What else am I supposed to conclude from all this?
What were your conclusions about the “swift boating” of John Kerry..?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerry_military_service_controversy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swift_Vets_and_POWs_for_Truth
The accusations that Hilary and/or Bill Clinton murdered Vince Foster and supposedly a host of other people..?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_of_Vince_Foster#The_Clinton_Chronicles:_A_Political_Firestorm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clinton_Chronicles
Looks like the same sh*t but a different day and politician.
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Abagond asks, “what else am I supposed to conclude from this?”
You could conclude that opposing parties always try to demean their political opponents and look for any way they can to turn the screws on them and to make them seem like outsiders.
I won’t deny that the hysteria has been quite ridiculous. Although I will say that the ‘birthers’ have a legitimate point in that this could have all been squashed two years ago if Obama would have done then what he did the other day.
But myths swirled around about Clinton and Whitewater. George W. Bush’s Texas national guard duty was a long-running topic of debate. People speculated on whether he was smart enough to hold office and lampooned him because he didn’t read books. The intertwining of the Bush family and the House of Saud was touched on in ‘Fahrenheit 9/11’ and was a cloud that hung over Bush during his time in office – just as Obama’s associations with Bill Ayers are the subject of myth today.
So it’s not so much that Obama is black; it’s that he was born in Hawaii two years after statehood to a Kenyan globetrotting father and lived in Indonesia for a while before coming back to America where his school records aren’t able to be tracked down. If he was white these would all be issues too. But he happens to be black.
There was an interesting debate on this topic at Bloggingheads TV with John McWhorter.
http://bloggingheads.tv/diavlogs/35773
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Where did this thought that Obama isn’t American-born originate from? I mean why birth certificate all of a sudden? It looks like this theory has fallen straight from the sky.
Shame on the birthers. Goes to show that many have this mindset that if you’re not white, you’re not American.
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@G. L. Piggy
Opposing parties try a lot of things, i agree, but when is the last time they managed to get such reaction out of the general public even after giving irrefutable proof? and all this started since 2008! is it really hard to see the racist element in this?
i dont know about the US, but if it happened here, all this conspiracy would’ve done a serious damage to the credibility of the parties who helped spread the lies. but all the repubs i see talk like Obama is the most suspicious guy in the US politics. they do not even acknowledge the fact that the entire birth conspiracy was a nasty smear campaign. it’s very different from Clinton etc. and all this started before he actually did anything.
i’m definitely not a fan of obama after this Libya war. as far as foreign policy is concerned he’s pretty much following his predecessor. but this issue clearly has a racist element, and the opposition of obama are using the ingrained racism of white americans.
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“There was an interesting debate on this topic at Bloggingheads TV with John McWhorter.”
Good link, Piggy. Thanks,
Now, you must admit that Donald Trump is a buffoon.
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Wait, wait… You said:
That his true middle name is Muhammad?
Why would Muhammad be “worse” than Hussein? I mean, why would he hide that? Both are Muslim names, right? (I mean, he didn’t say his middle name was John to make himself appear “less Muslim”).
And wtf… Is Donald Trump running for president now? Am I missing something?
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@ Mira
It seems that Trump is (at this very early stage) leading amongst Republican voters. It shouldn’t mean much in the long run… the Republicans can’t be THAT stupid!
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“The more third-worlders settle in this country, the more it becomes like the third world.”
O.K. nonserviam, now you’re just being racist.
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So what if Obama is secretly a Muslim? Kennedy was a Catholic President in a Protestant-majority U.S.
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king,
just in the sake of full disclosure, i voted for Obama in ’08.
that being said, i won’t vote for him again.
but, yes, Donald Trump is a buffoon. i can’t stand the guy, and part of the reason is that he is a “carnival barker”. but if he would have expounded on anything i would have thought he was a buffoon. nothing about him taking on the birther issue changes my opinion about the guy.
now, i’ll restate my premise from above – one that i share with McWhorter. the ‘birther’ movement is much less about race than Abagond and everyone else believes it is. in politics, if one side sees a scab on their opponent they’ll surely pick at it. if any other black person had become president but that person had American parents and grew up in America, no group would challenge his citizenship.
what some here see as racism is just plain old fashioned politics. that’s not to say that it is correct or proper or conducted in good faith, but just that it is part of the same dirty game that’s always existed.
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serpentus,
“So what if Obama is secretly a Muslim? Kennedy was a Catholic President in a Protestant-majority U.S.”
Kennedy wasn’t secretly Catholic. And if Obama was hiding his faith it would surely raise questions about his integrity. Further, if he were Muslim, he would have a greater interest in adopting policies which would aid Muslims to the detriment of this country.
I don’t happen to think that he’s a Muslim. He went to church for 20 years at Jeremiah Wright’s place. Which is actually just as bad as being a Muslim, but that’s another issue.
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Give me a break, I would prefer it if President Obama was a Sufi muslim instead of going to Jeremiah’s Wright bat ess crazy church and then I never heard his racist BS for twenty years.
Yes, I think the birthers are a bunch of nuts but I think Obama would argue against the birthers then defend his indefensible budget, military policies and the economic status of the country.
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You’re hurting my feelings, serpentus.
The question to ask about any contentious statement isn’t “is it ‘racist’ (i.e. heretical)”, but “is it true”.
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Sufism is overrated, e-dub. Many Westerners entertain a delusion that it is a peaceful, “hippie” version of Islam, whereas it is nothing of the sort.
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I stand corrected.
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@ G.L. Piggy
Elaborate on how being a member of Pastor Wright’s church is the same as being a Muslim? It seems like the entire premise of that statement is based upon stereotypes.
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@ GL Piggy:
“If he was white these would all be issues too. But he happens to be black.”
I disagree. If he was white he would seem “American enough” for the birther crowd.
I do agree that anti-black racism is not the primary sentiment at play though. It’s primarily xenophobia, and secondarily Islamophobia.
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Franklin:
Trinity United Church of Christ, under Rev. Wright, has preached an ideology of anti-white and anit-Western hatred. Islam is a violent expansionist religion that also stands against everything we value and love. Therefore, both are completely unacceptable for the President of the United States to belong to.
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“Islamophobia” is a spurious term, aimed to suppress any criticism of Islam or opposition to its spread. (Much like “racism” is used to suppress any intelligent discussion of racial differences) “Phobia’ denotes an irrational fear, while fear of Islam is entirely justified.
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“Phobia’ denotes an irrational fear, while fear of Islam is entirely justified”
You’re saying that the Qur’an encourages what we define today as “Islamic extremism?”
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“Islam is a violent expansionist religion that also stands against everything we value and love.”
yup, tell that to the srebrenica genocide survivors
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“Kennedy wasn’t secretly Catholic.”
And neither is Obama secretly Muslim, no matter how many times Obama has denied it. People still believe what they want to believe.
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I suppose the Irish should have been denied the opportunity to immigrate to America since they were so poor that could have arguably been considered third-world. Oh, but waiy, they’re white!
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I’m confused. What did Rev Wright say that was so racist again? All I remember is that I tried my best not to pay attention to that story. It seemed like a distraction, just like the birther issue. I swear some people don’t realize when the media is playing with them. If you haven’t noticed the news media always pays attention to some dumb/unimportant story in order to divert people’s attention from important issues like the economy and wars.
Six times out of ten it’s about a social issue like abortion or gay marriage. Other times it’s one of those, “was this racist stories?” like Shirley Sherrod, some Tea partier sending Obama monkey emails, Quran burning, or the Arizona law. The remainder is about Sarah Palin type stuff -_-
Lol and ppl always fall for the bait. I ignore all of the stories I find unworthy. These are distractions. Call me a conspiracy theorist if you will, but I honestly believe these distraction stories are orchestrated
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@ Nonserviam
I was hoping you’d say something outside of the same uneducated and consistently parroted Star Spangled Klanner (White Conservative) talking points. But I guess that was too much to hope for, eh?
But then again, you equate talking about white problems (like this website does) with being “anti-white”. So it’s no wonder you’d to go such lengths to scrounge up a simplistic comparison of Islam and Rev. Wright (who was in fact “right” on many things white/western.) Sometimes, I’m ashamed to be a Christian when I hear such lunacy coming from such “Hypochristians”.
Especially when one of the aforementioned lunatics goes into “Persecuted Martyr Mode” every time they want their easily deflated stupidity to go uncontested. For example, when they want to lambaste Islam or talk about HBD (which is nothing more than a “New-Age Zombie Version” of the dead/failed science known as Eugenics), they’ll often cry that they’re being publicly silenced. When in reality, they’re just overwhelmingly incorrect.
Not to Godwin this discussion, but that pre-emptive tactic is the same one the Nazi’s used against the Jews. How ironic that you Nonserviam would use it in this day and age.
History, repetition, doom, yadda…yadda…yadda…
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Beware of the 24 hour news channel!!! This birther “issue” is just a recyclable distraction. We need to pay attention to more important issues. Like if Obama is Osama or not!
🙂
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@ The Cynic
He just told the truth. Which is a hard pull to swallow for those (whites in this context) that have been lied to/kept in the dark. When his sermons were first discovered by the white populous, the same sheep herders that he was referring to said “He’s lying and attacking us ALL!” to the majority. As a result and without thinking (yet again) they just agreed with their fellow whites, tightened their blinders, and sided with the same fools again that have been keeping EVERYONE in America down for generations.
This most famous speech:
One of the other issues he’s commented on:
http://www.naturalnews.com/023131_cancer_government_experiments.html
I’m sure if he was still active, he’d comment on the US government recently apologizing to South Americans for infecting them with STD’s that were masked as a vaccine.
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Yes.
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Have you read the Qur’an?
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“God Damn America”? Kind of unseemly for a spiritual mentor of a future POTUS, don’t you agree?
A white candidate so closely associated with, say, World Church of the Creator would have been incinerated in an instant, and justly so.
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King:
I am familiar with it.
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@ King
That’s a “no”…
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@Nonserviam “God Damn America”?
Racism?????
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Distinction without a difference.
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@Nonserviam
Are the band members of Green Day racist? Here’s the lyrics of American Idiot(chorus excluded).
“Don’t want to be an American idiot.
Don’t want a nation under the new media
And can you hear the sound of hysteria?
The subliminal mind fuck America.”
“Well maybe I’m the f*ggot America.
I’m not a part of a redneck agenda.
Now everybody do the propaganda.
And sing along to the age of paranoia.”
“Don’t want to be an American idiot.
One nation controlled by the media.
Information age of hysteria.
It’s calling out to idiot America.”
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““Surely that means Don Jr., Ivanka, Eric and Barron can’t be citizens?”
hullaballoo,
in the US Constitution, anyone born to a US Citizen parent anywhere in the world, and said parent was born in the US (like Trump), then baby is automatically eligible for US Citizenship.”
Uh, Linda? I was being sarcastic.
My point was that the birthers are using Obama Sr. as a barometer for determining Obama Jr.’s citizenship. Except none of that matters. Obama’s parents can be from Mars, but that wouldn’t change Jr’s status. He was born here. That automatically makes HIM a citizen. (U.S. Constitution, Amendment 14, Paragraph 1). There’s nothing in the constitution that says ANYTHING about parentage conferring citizenship. Don’t believe me? Look up any of the U.S. Constitutions they have online and do a search for the words parent or mother or father or children or child. These words are nowhere in the Constitution.
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@ nonserviam:
“God Damn America”? Kind of unseemly for a spiritual mentor of a future POTUS, don’t you agree?
I don’t see anything remotely wrong with this at all.
Americans are routinely propagandized to see their country as the greatest in the world, a paragon of virtue, and favoured by God.
Wright was pointing out what should be apparent – that America is also guilty of a lot of heinous sh!t throughout its history (Ask the black slaves, ask the Native Americans, ask the Haitians, ask the Filipinos, ask the Vietnamese, etc etc)
I don’t know if Obama actually heard that sermon, but if he did, I’d argue that it’d actually make him a better president. The problem with so many American (primarily Republican) leaders is that they actually believe the bullsh!t story that their country is more morally righteous than any other. A POTUS who actually listened to Wright might be more likely to stop crimes being committed in America’s name.
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Somehow this is funny and creepy. Next the birthers demand to see the uterus as a proof.
As for mr Bush junior and his precidency, he lied again and again to his nation, and these were not small lies like “I did not dodge Vietnam war” etc.
And how many americans have lost their jobs because of that guy? How many americans have been killed in a war in Irak which had nothing to do with 911? How the whole economy was run down by this guy and his ilk and he just kept on tellin stories again and again and again…
Strangely it is Obama who is suspect for the accomplishments of the previous president, George W. Bush, like the rotten state of the economy. Strangely indeed. But it has nothing to do with the fact that Obama is a black guy, right??? 😀
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@ Cynic:
We might need to examine Green Day’s birth certificates…
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@ Eurasian Sensation
No, they automatically pass because they’re white and popular.
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You know what ? I’m black and I don’t believe he came from America. Call it whatever you like but Obammy’s not from here. I’m wondering if he’s even from the same planet, with 5 dollar gas ? People can’t afford a loaf of bread let alone the car to put the groceries in!
Crying shame, at least I didn’t vote him in . But then again if McCain was running this country we’d all be homeless.
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DUDE, he just publicly released his birth record, this post is outdated. and if anyone still believes this, then they are pretty stupid
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but I think part of the sensation is from the net.
Its like if you write the same lie over and over again it becomes the defacto truth.
Sort of like all white people are blank right abagond
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@King
“You’re saying that the Qur’an encourages what we define today as “Islamic extremism?” ”
Nice straw man! The Quran doesn’t, but some radical fractions of Islam do. By equating Islam with the Quran you can show how similar it is to the Bible and Christianity. Unfortunately that’s just not true. A religion isn’t defined only by it’s holy book. Tradition and culture are just as important. Because of this, there are different interpretations of the same scripture.
I do think that people who believe Muslims are potential terrorists are dumb and I do think that there is a lot of unsubstantiated hatred for Muslims in America and Europe, but it’s undeniable that mainstream Islam simply isn’t as progressive as mainstream Christianity. Seeing Islam as a threat to the Western world’s liberal lifestyle is perfectly reasonable.
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@ eco
it’s nonserviam’s straw man.
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I’m just asking questions.
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@King
“it’s nonserviam’s straw man.”
He was writing about Islam. You changed the topic of the discussion by bringing up Quran. He didn’t set up the straw man (Islam = Quran). He fell for it.
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yep @ everything especially the last part
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Islam is off topic here unless it is tied to Obama himself – like about how some think he is a Secret Muslim, which is very much like the whole Birther thing.
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Trump is a hypocrite. He accuses China of stealing our manufacturing jobs due to cheap labor, yet he owns a men’s clothing line that is manufactured in China. His wife has a Chinese-made jewelry line that is sold on a home shopping network. Also, Trump admits to buying Chinese-made building materials for his construction projects. Please tell me how this keeps American jobs in the US.
Trump moves from one gimmick to another. First, he brought up the birther issue. When that fell through, he questioned Obama’s education credentials and demanded to see his college transcripts. (Forget the fact that the man graduated magna or summa cum laude from Harvard Law School). I guess the implication is that Obama was not smart enough to enter Ivy league schools on his own and somehow got in by Affirmative Action or something.
For those of you who doubt that any of this birther stuff stems from racism, consider that no other president in US history has had to deal with all the crap President Obama has had to deal with. There are posters showing him as a Kenyan tribesman with a bone through his nose, and posters showing him as the Joker and Hitler. These “real Americans” even make fun of the First Lady who stays out of political issues and uses her platform to support military families and to bring attention to childhood nutrition.
Sure, people gave Bush 43 a hard time about his decision-making and questioned his intellect, but neither he nor his wife were ever attacked in the way that President Obama and the First Lady are. My thing is…if you want to attack our President, attack him on the issues. Attacking him on a personal level and trying to delegitimize him speaks to something else. And we all know that that “something else” is.
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dave said:
I hope you are right, but I am not holding my breath since the short form was proof enough to any reasonable person. In fact, just his saying he was born in Hawaii was proof enough since it is not the sort of thing politicians lie about. After all, has ANYONE run for president falsely claiming to have been born in America?
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To the haters in the thread who believe that words like “racism” and “islamophobia” are used to shut down discussion and silence certain people…
Grow The F*** Up.
We call you racist because you’re (wait for it) ACTING RACIST! We call you islamophobic because you’re (wait for it…) CREATING FEAR AND PARANOIA ABOUT MUSLIMS.
None of your prejudices are rational, or factual. They’re not based on science, nor on moral interpretations of religion. There’s no good evidence for it, and there’s nothing you’ve said to change that.
All the nonsense ya’ll spout is garbage from a land fill funneled through a sewer into the ocean. Pollution. You are pollution.
Sad, but true. The Birthers and you = the lowest life forms in America, right next to David Duke, Steve Sailer, and Donald Trump.
So please cry like a bunch of babies, thinking if you shed enough false tears the facts will change to suit your bigotry. They won’t. Please, keep up with the verbal diarrhea, hoping the mess will overwhelm us. It won’t; we’ve got Charmin’ ultra brand. Please, continue to post links to evidence to support your prejudices. Won’t work though — pseudoscience ain’t evidence.
So please, continue to be the overwhelmingly ignorant, bigoted and paranoid individuals we all see you to be. Make it easy for us to see you and dismiss you. Make it easy for us to pick you out of a crowd with your shirts depicting Obama as a monkey. We’ll be able to mock and ridicule you better that way. Make it easy for us to notice you on the subway or train reading books by Rushton or Lynn. We’ll be able avoid you better that way. Make it easy for us to slowly, but surely force you out of our lives, and out of our country. Because with hatred like yours, that’s how I KNOW you’re not a Real American.
Oh, and for the last time, just so you know… Obama is a citizen, Black people are as smart as everyone else, and Muslims aren’t trying to take over the world.
Thank you! Now have a nice life =)
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“God Damn America”? Kind of unseemly for a spiritual mentor of a future POTUS, don’t you agree?
He’s a minister. What should he say? “Good job America”?
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It doesn’t get any better than this!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/29/tom-tancredo-obama-withhe_n_855718.html
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Americans are hilarious! Take care darlings, you will need to. Oh, and since you love churchgoing and praying, pray for my country! An election is being held on Monday and I am hoping for another minority government in the least. Whilst entertaining, these nut jobs in the States are scary because; 1. They vote their ‘conscience’ and 2. They actually believe what they are saying and writing. It reads like an article from MAD magazine or some other satirical periodical, he** this could provide endless satirical fodder for the onion, hahaha!!!
http://www.theonion.com/video/in-the-know-should-the-nations-unemployed-be-buyin,20083/
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@zek j evets
nonserviam wrote:
” “Islamophobia” is a spurious term, aimed to suppress any criticism of Islam or opposition to its spread. (Much like “racism” is used to suppress any intelligent discussion of racial differences) “Phobia’ denotes an irrational fear, while fear of Islam is entirely justified.”
When you called his stance racist and islamophobic without addressing any of his points you showed he may be right about that “aimed to suppress any criticism” thing. You haven’t explained how he is wrong/illogical/immoral. You basically called him names and dismissed his claims without any justification.
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I don’t think Obama should’ve released the long-form of the ceritificate. He just “acknowledged” them by doing it. They’re not worth it at all.
Trump is a pathetic individual who’s too desperate to be taken seriously.
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From what I see, birthers are cut from the same cloth as those who demand repeal of the 14th Amendment to stamp out “anchor babies,” without considering why the 14th Amendment came about in the first place (whites having to be forced by law to do the right thing) or acknowledging that there is no such thing as an anchor baby (it’s impossible for an infant to support its family to the extent required to sponsor its family for a green card, let alone citizenship). But who needs facts when you have fear?
Why do people keep pandering to this element so long after they revealed their tell (fear, paranoid delusions) right after the end of (official) enslavement? It’s not like their song even changes. I swear, I hope I live to see America 20 years hence. ‘President Hernandez Hernandez Gonzalez’ will REALLY drive them bonkers.
@nonserviam: the so-called ‘Third World’ has a much older, richer history than the US, which is technically the ‘Fourth World’ if one uses a timeline as a measure…and time is all that matters as far as I can tell. Everything here that’s not Native Indian was cast-off, smuggled or stolen from elsewhere. Also, having traveled extensively in the so-called ‘Third World,’ I never hesitated to hitchhike and had meals, lodging and genuine hospitality offered everywhere I went. I have yet to experience this here at home or in Europe. Makes you ponder the basics of “civilization.” Or maybe not, in your case.
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Oh, and chances are pretty good that President Hernandez Hernandez Gonzalez will have MUCH deeper roots in what we now know as America than those who would probably be doing the loudest questioning, depending on the dates and lines on the map.
I swear, sometimes it feels like I’m seeing my own country and culture through a funhouse mirror. Or maybe not me, but it seems a sizeable portion of my fellow countrymen are. *smh*
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“From what I see, birthers are cut from the same cloth as those who demand repeal of the 14th Amendment to stamp out “anchor babies,” without considering why the 14th Amendment came about in the first place (whites having to be forced by law to do the right thing)”
O.K., I’m not a birther nor a Tea Partier, but, in its context, the 14th Amendment was originally supposed to protect blacks from whites after the Civil War who would try to deny blacks citizenship and other basic rights.
If I have to go through all the correct legal proceedings to become a U.S. citizen AND pay around $1,000 in fees, why should people who were just born here get free citizenship even though their parents are illegals? If I illegally cross the Mexican border and have a baby, will my baby automatically get Mexican citizenship. If I illegally cross into Israel and have a baby, does my baby get Israeli citizenship?
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Ok, last one: Lol that HILLARY started this mess and then quietly, blamelessly, slinks off. Anderson Cooper needs to call her all the way out.
*drops mic*
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@serpentus
1. There is no such thing as free citizenship. Period.
2. The baby is the native-born citizen, not the mother.
4. If birthright citizenship was good enough for the English, Irish, Germans, Portuguese, French, Spaniards and Italians et al. then why not “The Mexicans?”
4. You’re presuming whites suddenly started respecting the rights and citizenship of non-whites as soon as the civil war ended.
There is no cheap, free easy path to US citizenship. Post-9/11 I know European grad students struggling to get student visas. Again, a baby born to “illegals” is still the child of parents without papers and all the problems therein. It’s not like they get a house, a car and free education just for showing up. Nope, they work under the table for half the pay and twice the hours and live with constant fear and anxiety. At least that’s how it is for my friends without papers. No streets paved with gold just because you give birth here. Lose that idea. Pretty please.
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Ok last one for sure:
The way our immigration policy is set up now, it encourages kind of the poor, huddled masses the Statue of Liberty asks. We have enough poor, huddled masses of our own. I propose something else: buy a house for $500k cash, get a green card fast-track. Buy one for $1mil+ cash, get fast-tracked to citizenship. It’d encourage a whole different type of immigrant with a lot more money, not to mention greasing the real-estate and tax wheels. I mean, seriously, what else do we have to sell other than our land and our security (I speak as a Rust Belt refugee, btw)? If we were smart we’d TRULY be welcoming immigrants and their dreams and money with open arms, giving them citizenship quite happily, not demanding the black president’s papers.
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“There is no such thing as free citizenship. Period.”
You get free citizenship if you’re born in America, regardless of your parents’ legal status.
“The baby is the native-born citizen, not the mother.”
I’m not arguing about the mother or anybody else. I’m just talking about the baby. Of course I know the mother doesn’t immeidately get citizenship.
“If birthright citizenship was good enough for the English, Irish, Germans, Portuguese, French, Spaniards and Italians et al. then why not ‘The Mexicans?'”
But it IS good for the Mexicans right now, just like it was good for blacks post-Civil War.
“You’re presuming whites suddenly started respecting the rights and citizenship of non-whites as soon as the civil war ended.”
I never stated whites started respecting civil rights post-civil war. I know whites grossly violated the civil rights of blacks, but what does that have to do with this issue right now?
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abagond asks:
“After all, has ANYONE run for president falsely claiming to have been born in America?”
There is speculation that Chester Alan Arthur was not a citizen when he became Vice President (and after James Garfield’s assassination, President).
So to answer your precise question, no, nobody (that I know of) has *run* for President falsely claiming to have been born in America.
But people went after Chester Alan Arthur in their own brand of birtherism. Their argument was that Arthur was born in Canada during his mother’s visit there. Since Arthur’s father was a British subject (who later naturalized when Arthur was in his teens), Arthur was technically not an American.
A man named Arthur Hinman was hired by Democrats to investigate Arthur’s birth.
The point of this is not that Trump and other modern Birthers are correct. But it just proves that politics is politics. If people can find something to marginalize their political opponent, they will.
The Birther controversy surrounding Obama has to do with race insofar as Obama Sr.’s birth in a foreign country – Kenya – “made” Obama Jr. black. But it is Obama Sr.’s movements and what some would call unclear history that allows some to speculate and argue that Obama Jr. was not born in Hawaii.
I mean, how many recent Presidents had fathers who were foreign citizens and were traveling all over the globe and also spent a good deal of their childhood living in a foreign country? You have to admit that Obama’s life is not “normal”.
So when you have this vague figure and this childhood history that doesn’t fit the norm and then you combine that with the internet in both its ability to spread information quickly and its function as a catalyst for conspiracy theories, why should anyone be surprised that Obama is getting so much scrutiny?
One last point then I’ll stop. There is a gigantic overlap between the people who think that Obama is foreign-born and those who think that the U.S. government is poisoning our water in order to harm its citizens or that the Federal Reserve takes its orders from the Illuminati (which, oddly, black folks talk a lot about too).
The Birther movement may be anti-intellectual, but it is not inherently or primarily racist.
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@piggy: “You have to admit that Obama’s life is not “normal”.”
That was the funniest comment of today! 😀
It would be very interesting to hear what you consider “normal life” since Donald Trumps life has not excately been “normal” either, nor those of George W. Bush or many others.
@eco: Well, when nonserviam makes claims, he should argue them. If he says that term “racism” is used to shut up people, he should come up with the evidence that it is so. If he claims that “islamophobia” is a political term designed to shut people up, he should back up he claim with the evidence.
Truth is that those terms are describing people like nonserviam, who are racists and islamophobic, even though they themselves deny it. Their ideology is racist and islamophobia is part of it.
Islamophobia is, like the term implies, a unreasonable fear of islam. Because Obamas name and his father, some of this is in this discussion. Just as the racism that surrounds the president and the forst Lady. These are things which you can not deny, since they are out in the open in all these debates about Obama, his backround and life and such.
And before you get too upset, let me tell you that personally I do not think too highly about islam or koran. In my mind a religion which openly and repeatetly defines women as subservient beings and states that they have to live under the will of men, is no good for me. If a religion openly encourages for violence, as koran does, I do not think too highly of it. But then again, I’m very sceptical of all religions, christianity included.
What I do not have is fear of islam or any other religion. I may oppose their ideology, but I am not islamophobic. Knowning that some friends of mine are muslims, I respect their right to believe. I do not see them as terrorists, extremists, secret fifth column taking over the west or anything like that. I have no fear of islam any more than I fear catholic church or orthodox church. Basically, I have no fear of others who think differently, believe differently or look different.
If you wish to dress in burkha, do so. I don’t mind. But if somebody forces you to wear one, I have an objection. If your president is black, I have no problem with that. Neither should you. Unless, that is, you are a racist.
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@ G.L. Piggy:
Thanks for that about Arthur.
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sam:
“It would be very interesting to hear what you consider “normal life” since Donald Trumps life has not excately been “normal” either, nor those of George W. Bush or many others.”
why be obtuse here? Obama was born to an African father and spent a lot of his childhood in Indonesia where he was listed as a Muslim on school records. That is not “normal” by any stretch of the imagination and certainly means that it is many times more plausible that Obama was not born in American compared to say, oh, someone whose parents were born in America and had always lived in America and who never lived overseas. I’m not saying that it is right to compartmentalize Obama on those grounds alone, but that it is not hard to see why it would happen for reasons having nothing to do with race.
Throw in Obama’s unwillingness to show his birth certificate when these claims were made (by his now Secretary of State no less) and it is not hard to see that this issue would have legs in a party that hoped to unseat the man from office.
Answer this question too, please. Obama capitulated a couple of years ago by showing a short form birth certificate. He said the issue was settled. But he had to know that it would only truly be settled when he showed the full birth certificate that he showed the other day. Why did he wait? Could it be that he was taking advantage of what he knew would be politically-charged conspiracy theory which could easily be played off as racism – which would benefit Obama politically?
Trump and Bush were not “normal” in that they were rich, but wealth doesn’t pertain to the Constitutionality issue that has the Birthers’ ears perked.
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abagond:
no problem. i thought it was interesting myself.
let me ask you, just for fun, what percentage of the Birther movement do you think is fueled by racism and what percentage by political motivation i.e. Republicans acting like Republicans when a Democrat is in office and vice versa?
Do you think it is even possible to tease out that interaction to come up with a number?
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Nonserviam said:
If you truly believe that, then you are being played.
Third World immigration is saving America’s ass. America has such shitty schools that it does not produce enough nurses, engineers or doctors. Or, in New York, even enough good clerical workers. It is not just the hotels in Vegas and the fields in California that depend on immigrant labour. So do Silicon Valley and Wall Street. So do many hospitals.
America is becoming a Third World country, but the people who are doing it are the rich, who send jobs overseas while keeping nearly all the domestic economic growth in their own pockets. They point fingers at Mexican maids to play on the racist fears of white people to fool them into voting against their class interests.
America is a democracy and yet the rich keep getting huge tax breaks the country can ill afford. How is that possible when most voters are nowhere near rich? Because the Republicans use race and religion to get votes from the white masses, which they then turn into tax breaks for the rich. That is why things like gay marriage and Obama’s birth certificate are “issues”.
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“Islamophobia” is a spurious term, aimed to suppress any criticism of Islam or opposition to its spread.
There is, can we say, “legitimate” fear of Islam, and then there is “Islamophobia”. Obviously no one will agree on where one ends and the other begins, but this is how I see it.
It is quite legitimate (not necessarily right or justified) to be worried about the impacts of an increasing Islamic presence or influence on a society. It is quite legitimate to recognise that there are some aspects of Islam and Islamic culture which are incompatible with Western society.
But these things are Islamophobic:
– Thinking that everyone who is Muslim is a terrorist in the making, or desires to Islamize the West
– Thinking that all Muslims think the same things
and most pertinent to Obama issue:
– Thinking that anyone who even seems vaguely similar to a Muslim is therefore suspiciously Muslim.
This last point is essential to understanding much of the suspicion directed towards Obama from the birthers and the like.
Likewise, if someone “seems” foreign, they probably ARE foreign, in the eyes of this crowd.
Someone who has a wordly, international outlook (as opposed to constantly trumpeting how the USA is better than every other country) must surely be under suspicion of being foreign.
And since Barack Obama is an unusual name for white Americans to hear, it immediately engenders suspicion of foreign-ness (and Muslim-ness). Hence the constant reference to “Hussein”.
(Although I have to say, the name Barack Hussein Obama is far more “normal” than Republican-approved names like Newt Gingrich, Trig Palin or Reince Priebus.)
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[…] wrote of the Birther movement: They would sooner twist facts about where he is from and give up common […]
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What makes a country “third world” is the increasing gap between poor and rich, to the detriment of the middle class. A system with secondary and especially tertiary sectors being undermined by large-scale speculation, neglect of the infrastructure and education due to public spending cuts, irresponsible behaviour in financial, social and political matters, corporate corner cutting and subsequent unemployment and last but not least… just plain greed. If out of 100 middle class citizens 1 wins the jackpot to be “promoted” to an income bracket that goes beyond “reasonably wealthy” and 99 fall through the cracks to a level where, at least, social mobility is impaired if not permanent poverty pre-programmed, you have it. Add corruption as an inevitable consequence, and you end up in a “third world” system.
I actually hate the term the way it is applied to developing countries whose resources are always good enough to be skimmed off by the Western consumption junkies but, at the same time, their citizens are regarded as “third class”. A more appropriate definition for Third World would be “countries that degenerate into neo-feudalism”. Has-beens.
The currently living generations of humans must not forget that this planet is not their property. It is only leased for a limited time until the next generations take over.
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Oh birthers, and those who are hardly a rung above them, time to give it up. I know Mr. Trump has moved on to discredit Mr. Obama’s education now, but guess what? A black man really was born in Hawaii, graduated from Harvard magna cum laude, & later became president of the US. It happened. Embrace it. This shouldn’t interfere with your dream that a business man with a sheep’s ass for a face & no political background can run for president.
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Oh yeah and by the way the same accusations were made about John McCain check out this article in the NY times
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By the way third world is a passe term with out any meaning in the current global environment. Third world meant any developing country that was not in either NATO, SEATO, or a Soviet Communist Country — today’s world is much more multifaceted.
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it is many times more plausible that Obama was not born in American compared to say, oh, someone whose parents were born in America and had always lived in America and who never lived overseas.
It’s many times more plausibe that Barack Obama was the second gunman on the grassy knoll compared to, oh, someone like Justin Bieber who wasn’t born yet.
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Eco,
Yes, I did call him a bunch of names. Why? Because those are names for WHAT HE IS. If I called him a “man”, would you get upset? If I called him a “human”, would you say I need to back up my argument with evidence?
When someone makes outlandish comments that are pretty obvious evidence of racism and islamophobia, I feel justified in calling them racist and islamophobic.
Take comments like these:
The more third-worlders settle in this country, the more it becomes like the third world.
Circular logic, much?
Trinity United Church of Christ, under Rev. Wright, has preached an ideology of anti-white and anit-Western hatred.
Since when is criticizing America anti-Western?? There’s more to “The West” than America. Also, criticizing America isn’t anti-White, since America is made up of more than just White people… DUH!
Islam is a violent expansionist religion that also stands against everything we value and love.
No, it’s not. You’re making that up because you’re afraid and paranoid. Islam is a religion like any other, meaning that it can be used for whatever end people want. Just like Christianity is used to as an excuse to firebomb abortion clinics, hurl slurs at military funerals, deny people their fundamental right to marriage, start a crusade, expel all my fellow Jews from Spain, etc.
Therefore, both are completely unacceptable for the President of the United States to belong to.
Freedom of religion. HAVE YOU HEARD OF IT??
“God Damn America”? Kind of unseemly for a spiritual mentor of a future POTUS, don’t you agree?
Oh, so it wasn’t that what he said was RACIST (like you said earlier), but that he said “God Damn America”. Oh okay. And it’s “unseemly”….
Is that the same as icky? Or gross? Or, “eww don’t touch me with your criticism of our nation’s sin towards its historically oppressed citizens!”
Please, grow up.
A white candidate so closely associated with, say, World Church of the Creator would have been incinerated in an instant, and justly so.
As I recall there was this White candidate who became president who was associated with Catholicism, and people started saying The Pope was going to take over America! But then nothing happened. So some people assassinated him.
Also, there was this White candidate who became president that was associated with this secret society based on gothic macabre imagery… but nobody seemed to care because they were all “good men” (i.e. White) from “good families” (i.e. Rich) and it was only a little college conspiracy… Or wait, I think they’re still doing it!
OH NO, OUR EX-PRESIDENT IS PART OF A SECRET SOCIETY BASED ON SKULLS AND BONES THAT WANT TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD — AND OH MY GOD WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO? THIS IS SIMPLY NOT AMERICAN!
See how ridiculous it sounds when I spell it out for you?
Now Eco, if you feel I haven’t made an argument that is up to your “lofty” ideals, please f*** off. Why? Because you’re just another troll, apparently.
(And for nonserviam, I hope you have a night light. Because guess what? There’s a Muslim under you bed gonna jihad your a**!)
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@ eco
“The more third-worlders settle in this country, the more it becomes like the third world.”
As abagond pointed out up thread, there are plenty of “third world” people who are coming her from India, Pakistan, Middle East, South America, Vietnam, who are helping America move forward, not dragging her backward.
It is true that the US cannot indiscriminately take in large volumes of poor people (no matter what country they come from) but neither can Sweden, of Greenland, or Tahiti. It’s not a question of where the people come from, but how many come at a time, and how much wealth and/and education they bring with them.
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What did Rev Wright say that was so racist again?
“God Damn America”?
Same old, same old. But, ironically, nonserviam’s misplaced and unjustified white grievance against Rev. Wright (the so-called racist who is racist for making a statement that is not racist, according to nonserviam’s “evidence”) and the way Rev. Wright was demonized and dismissed by the media is evidence of an absurd degree of White Privilege where claims that are blatantly false and ridiculous (both the claim that Rev. Wright is racist and the birther or even tea party hysteria) are newsworthy and granted legitimacy because enough White people believe it and are stirred up about it.
That idiot John McWhorter was on to something even though his unsurprising dismissal of role racism plays in birtherism was pathetically, logically lacking. The new media with the internet and ideological echo chambers that have popped up have made it easier for bs to build or, well, fester.
Ironically, the Rev. Wright thing shows just how racism works in society today.
The straw man attack against Rev. Wright cited his weakest argument regarding AIDS (one that Bill Cosby had also made) as a reason to be a person worthy of ridicule because he subscribed to a conspiracy theory but Donald Trump and the birthers instead of being ridiculed throughout the media were granted primetime legitimacy because of polling among what have to be white prospective voters.
It never mattered that Rev. Wright via his AIDS comment had never went around the country trying to get media attention over the AIDS thing. It also never mattered that he had more grounds for suspicion than the racist birthers. Right or wrong, as long as enough White people believe something our media and, hence, our national dialogue revolves around it — the definition of White Privilege.
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zek:
do you ever not call someone that you disagree with a troll in order to marginalize them?
calling someone racist is quite different than calling them a man. the former is obviously a charged term uttered to create a negative image of the person you’re arguing with. if you’re going to engage in semantical hocus-pocus then it would be pointless for anyone to argue with you.
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Why do racist hate being called racist so much? Do they have no pride?
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AhA!! The next step finally revealed!!!
http://www.theonion.com/articles/afterbirthers-demand-to-see-obamas-placenta,6866/
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Third World immigration is saving America’s ass.
It will be interesting if they get an influx of European immigrants. Lets see what new tunes these folk will come up with! It won’t be too bad then eh?
America has such shitty schools that it does not produce enough nurses, engineers or doctors.
Right you are. I’ve gone to several ‘job’ fairs with friends due to these shortages in the States. They seem to need RNs and teachers primarily. They promise the moon stars and sun if only that person will go and work there.
They point fingers at Mexican maids to play on the racist fears of white people to fool them into voting against their class interests.
Yes, they pick on the most vulnerable in society. All the while, the only ones who they are fornicating in the long run is themselves. Who is going to pay your social security pensions or whatever it’s called there, if the tax base is diminished in the long run? I always found middle-class people, who vote against their best interests, to be bizarre. The ones who go off on diatribes against people who don’t share their views, are hilarious if it wasn’t for the fact that the actually believed the vomit they spew.
America is a democracy and yet the rich keep getting huge tax breaks the country can ill afford.
What I find disturbing is the fact that people may believe that these conglomerates are going to be selfless and devoid of greed. It seems to me that they are, as others have said, shipping the jobs overseas instead of creating jobs in the States. The last time I went to the States, I was shocked at the amount of goods that weren’t even manufactured there! The only thing I noticed that was made in the States, was cheese from Wisconsin! You need more regulations in place to counteract this decline.
Why do racist hate being called racist so much? Do they have no pride?
I have asked this many times but with the rare exception of a poster called Dr. Grizlsomething, none have given an answer. But then again, they don’t consider themselves to be racists. In their minds the people who ask them these questions are the racists. In real life, some of them will even break down, become enraged(happened to me the other day at work), or become speechless. Then there are the ones who who will look to other racialized people for validation as to why they ain’t racist. Funnily enough, the racialized person may fall for this tripe, only because they have not experienced this situation themselves or are afraid to tell the white person that they are indeed racist. The lessons learned by many; unless you want a scene, don’t bother! These blubbering fools are the same clowns and buffoons who make bizarre claims about Mr. Obama’s ‘birth certificate’, which only serves as smoke and mirrors to what really ails the States. Next, I am waiting for a bunch of jacka**es to claim he is from Neptune and is at the forefront of an impending alien invasion. He is just preparing the masses. Well, I find this more believable as I am from Mars originally!
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“Why do racists hate being called racists?”
And what is a racist again? Your definition of racist is obviously different from mine, but if I were to embrace being a racist that would only affirm the misconception you have about my views.
If you successfully pin the racist label on me that immediately justifies you not having to take anything I say seriously.
Personally, I’m pretty near a Charles Murray line of thinking a la The Bell Curve. Does that make me, and Charles Murray, racist? And if so can you acknowledge that that particular type of “racism” is quite different from the type we’re talking about here with Obama’s birth issue?
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Here’s Obama roasting Trump recently:
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Sorry, ’bout that. Here it is once again. Pretty funny. 🙂
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Who is going to pay your social security pensions or whatever it’s called there, if the tax base is diminished in the long run?
You know, one of my idealistic hopes for Obama (after he pissed me off with his problematic but rhetorically successful “race” speech) was that he would find a way to speak directly to the country and speak directly to that ‘race’ & demographic truth especially in terms of investing in education.
The overwhelming truth of it all, which is becoming clearer and clearer, is how America’s racism is harming all Americans. The generational social contract you mention with regard to social security is an excellent example of it.
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@ Herneith
“The only thing I noticed that was made in the States, was cheese from Wisconsin!”
It’s gotten so bad that we don’t even *cut the cheese* here!!!
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“America is a democracy and yet the rich keep getting huge tax breaks the country can ill afford.”
Nonsense… those aren’t rich people! Those are SMALL BUSINESSES! If you tax small businesses they won’t hire more people, and you will ruin the economy! Why are you against small business??? Why do you want to hurt the small businessman???
Except that if a small business hires a new employee, then that is a business expense, and therefore NOT TAXABLE. Businesses are taxed on their profits AFTER business expenses are subtracted.
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@king: 😀 Cut that cheese movement Now!!
And yes, the “small” businesses who get the lion share of the tax cuts are some of the biggest in the world and are owned by those same guys who got those thousands of billions from the tax payers (banks). 😀
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Re: Jeremiah Wright’s anti-white hatred.
Rev. Wright’s spiritual mentor was one James Cone, a professor at Union Theological Seminary in New York and one of the foremost proponents of so-called “black liberation theology”. Here’s a quote from this godly man:
Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill Gods who do not belong to the black community … Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love.
I rest my case.
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@ The Cynic
You’ll never actually catch a racist in this day and age openly admitting to being one. They use the same logic and tactics as current day White Supremacists/Nationalists/Race Realists. Which are all the same thing. Examples of the aforementioned groups’ logic:
“I’m not a racist! I just further the same exact arguments of past actual racists, while making damn sure I call this belief something else!”
“See? I don’t openly refer to black people niggers, like the evil Klan does! I only refer to them as “muds” on White Nationalist forums. That’s completely different!
“See? I don’t believe that the blacks are inferior to whites! I just believe they are on average unintelligent compared to whites, have naturally poor impulse control, have a rape gene, have a lazyness gene, and an assortment of other genetic factors that make them worse off than whites!”
“No! I’m not a white separatist! I just hate miscegenation, will go to any lenghts to demonize it, and wish to create an all white society without third worlders!
Multiculturalism has failed! What’s my proof of this? Look at the crime rates of blacks! No! I’m NOT ignoring the fact that most whites and blacks get along when face to face! But look at the crime rates! It’s failed!”
The list is endless…
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@ Nonserviam
Was that a quote from Wright or Cone?
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… so, get rid of the problems at the source. Get rid of money.
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@abagond:
I am fully aware that unrestricted third-world immigration is a bi-partisan project supported by this country’s political and business elites, and their tools in the media. For Republicans, it brings cheap labor for their corporate puppeteers, for Democrats, more clients of the welfare state and future voters. And for both parties, it leads to weaking of the civil society (diversity destroys trust) and decline of the middle class (mostly white). Which allows them to strengthen their grip on power and transition from a federal republic to a South America-style oligarchic kleptocracy, with tiny white (or off-white) elite at the top ruling over an undifferentiated mass of peasants (mostly in shades of brown). (Not unlike the antebellum South’s dreams about a slave empire stretching down to the Cape Horn).
This is called “election of a new people”. The third-wolders are prererenced because they’re presumably easier to rule over, due to their greater dependence on government services, and also because the elites partially buy into their own “diversity is strength”, “slavery is freedom” bullshit.
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The quote is from Cone, Wright’s spiritual mentor.
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So then what does that have to do with Wright saying anything racist? Or is it a case of “racist by association?”
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Nonserviam,
You have no case either against James Cone or Rev. Wright. Plus you already struck out. There are no do-overs.
You were given a chance to quote something that Rev. Wright said that was racist and you failed and keep failing.
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Do his statements about Tuskeege Experiment and AIDS qualify as anti-white or anti-American? Or simply stupid and ill-informed?
In any event, you cannot be anti-American without being anti-(American) white.
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Cone’s exterminationist rhetoric isn’t anti-white?
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I am not inerested in persuading you, Nquest, or indeed anyone. For those without vested interest or ideological blinds, the nature of Cone’s and Wright’s creed is exceedingly clear.
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Nope. Nothing anti-American about his statements about Tuskegee because it was something that happened in America and the AIDS stuff is damn near debatable given the Katrina-like response to the epidemic by the gov’t.
Your statements are anti-truth. You made a claim that you can’t back up and your claim that “you cannot be anti-American without being anti-(American) white” is pure, pre-debunked bs.
Further, this racist idea that someone Black has no standing or cause to criticize the gov’t and condemn the gov’t for its role in America’s racism is made clear by the very cries from Birthers and their anti-Obama sympathizers, etc. who claim that no one can disagree with Obama and his policies without being called racist (though plenty of progressives, gays, Latinos, African-Americans have been vocal in their problems with the Obama administration without being labeled racist).
Here you are turning Olympic mental flips to try to justify your bogus and still unsupported charge that Rev. Wright is racist but have not characterized Birthers in the same manner even as the Birther conspiracy implicates the American gov’t making it anti-American and, apparently, anti-White by your logic.
Hmm…
When the media covered the opposing views between [white] liberals and conservatives re: the Iraq war and the Fox CONservatives called anti-war liberals anti-American both for being against the war and for being critical of a president during wartime… at no time was there this claim that anti-American was also anti-White. So cut the bs.
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@ Nonserviam
Cone != Wright. And by that logic, since you mentioned AIDS and the Tuskegee Experiment, would another example of him “being anti-White” be if he mentioned how the US admitted to intentionally infecting South Americans with STD’s when it was called a Vaccine Shot? You seem to have an issue with accusing people talking of about white faults as being “anti-white.”
And your mentioning of Ideological Blinds couldn’t be more hypocritical. Because I mean, hey…
“If you call someone else it first, that makes you immune from being it too, right?”
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Cone’s exterminationist rhetoric isn’t anti-white?
Nope. Situated in the historical context and in the actual context in his book, absolutely not.
And I don’t give a damn about your phony white outrage over Cone’s theoretical/theological renderings in the midst of one of the most racist eras in American history.
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@ Nonserviam (continued)…
But then again, I’m not surprised that you think mentioning white issues means “anti-white”. Since you’ve said in this very thread that this blog, (which does the same thing) emphasizes that white people don’t deserve to exist.
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Re: Tuskegee experiment.
Wright falsely stated that the subject were deliberately infected with STDs. This is a wide-spread belief, especially in the black community, but nevertheless it is a myth. The truth of the subjects being denied treatment and lack of the informed concent is bad enough. Mendacious embellishments like that only serve to show how demonic the whites of the era (and by implication, modern whites) were/are.
Same thing about AIDS, only more outrageous because more obviously false.
Re: white America. Like it or not, America is a historically white nation. If you are a historically disadvantaged minority, you’re obviously entitled to differing views, but that should disqualify you from Presidency, or indeed from any position of power over whites.
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nonserviam said:
I’d suggest you visit a hospital or engineering / technology company sometime. You’ll see plenty of 3rd world immigrants earning several multiples of the median income and paying proportionally more in taxes than the average native-born.
If you’re against such immigration, perhaps you might examine the causes of the pervasive skills deficits at the higher end of the income scale which necessitates it.
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The Trump card
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/158495-trump-says-jokes-about-him-by-obama-meyers-were-inappropriate
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To all the open-borderists:
I found a post on another blog which should settle the immigration debate once and for all (of course, I have no illusions that it will). It is addressed to Randian libertarians, but really applies to anyone whose ideology (Marxism, liberalism, Christianity, economy-worship) blinds them to the objective reality of the matter:
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@ nonserviam
Since when does anyone listen to an obvious White Nationalist who can’t make a factual argument, so he’s trying his hand at a rallying emotional appeal?
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How can you determine that the author is a WN? Race realism and white nationalism are different things, despite the former often claiming to be the latter.
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In any event, WN or not, he’s right. There’s no civilization without cultural continuity.
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Kind of low grade demagoguery… he’s obviously not considering a lot of facts.
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@ nonserviam
Which isn’t actually being threatened, despite what a few uneducated and “Chicken Little-esque” Whites think. So the White Supremacist was in fact correct, but he based his argument off of hyperbole. So his entire rant was a moot point.
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@ Nonserviam
It’s easy to spot a White Supremacist/Nationalist/Realist/current masking term. As they all based off of racism (which they define, using the most wacky and wide reaching of definitions) and use the same tired arguments/speeches, but try their hardest to re-word them.
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I’m not surprised that you think mentioning white issues means “anti-white”. Since you’ve said… this blog… emphasizes that white people don’t deserve to exist.
Proof that Nonserviam is in no position to critique Cone or Wright or Black Liberation Theology. People like Nonserviam also have absolutely no credibility since their only knowledge of Wright/Cone was the result of the 2008 election which is why the same quote(s) show up all the time with their pathetic little gotcha arguments.
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@Piggy
Ummm… my comment was directed to any and all racist on this blog. If you are not a racist, my comment does not apply to you.
@Nonserviam
-Black ppl can spot the racist in sheep’s clothing by reading what they type and comparing it to hardcore racist on unmoderated sites. If the ideology is similar w/o the racial slurs the hardcores love to use, then the sheeps are most likely racist.
-Racist also tend to see EVERYTHING about blacks in a negative light.
-They make comments that insinuate all blacks think & act the same.
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Even though the argument of cultural and racial continuity is addressed mostly to whites, it is unlikely that minorities will fare well in the free-for-all, when the white civilization dissolves under demographic assault. Whatever their resentments and even justified grievances are, they will go down with the ship.
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@ nonserviam
It’s not a White civilization, it’s an American civilization, and it will stand as long as there are Americans (of every race) who want it.
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America is a historically white nation.
Bullsh!t. Complete, total ahistorical bs! And you “obviously” know why it’s bs:
If you are a historically disadvantaged minority, you’re obviously entitled to differing views, but that should disqualify you from Presidency, or indeed from any position of power over whites.
LMAO!!!
That *should* disqualify a so-called minority because people like you want to believe that “America is a… white nation.” And the obvious reason for not wanting a so-called minority to have “any position of power over whites” is because it directly contradicts this bs that “America is/was a… white nation” and, more importantly, the bs notion of White Supremacy.
And, really, the last thing you should ever fix your phony cyber-troll mouth to complain about is any perceived or real example of so-called racism or prejudice of a “historically disadvantaged minority” when you’re trying to argue in favor of White Supremacy by any other name by way of “America=White/White Nation” and, thereby, Whites “should” be the only ones in positions of power and no non-white person(s) “should” have power over Whites.
The question is: why?
Fragile much?
Scared a lot?
Fraud exposed forever?
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I had better things to entertain myself with at the time. These marginal (for whites) figures hadn’t appeared important until their disciple became a serious Presidential candidate.
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America was imagined, founded, and built by whites (and financed by Jews, incidentally). Others participated, but without whites, nothing would have happened. Deal with it.
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A majority White country doesn’t make it a White country.
“Other participants” all contributed to the final product. America would not be America without their contributions… and how did you so colorfully put it? … Ah yes…
Deal with it!
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Fine in theory, very problematic in practice. Because no civilization in history has survived the dissolution of its founding people.
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What do you mean by “dissolution?” Do you imagine that all Whites will be herded into dissolution chambers and rendered into viscous liquid? Will Whites cease to exist?
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W/o blacks America would be nothing….
I have NEVER seen the US as a white country and I nv will. I can’t wait for the day whites become a minority in this country bc I know it will make ppl like nonserviam sh*t in their forever paranoid pants!
@nonserviam
2050… us POC will exact our revenge! LOL and don’t think other European will help you. They’ll be taken over by Muslims by then! 🙂
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“W/o blacks America would be nothing….”
Haha, yeah right. I don’t deny that whites are responsible for bringing blacks to this country and therefore cannot just wish that blacks would disappear.
But, seriously, just think about it. If you could pick one race to just disappear from this country which would you pick if you wanted to a.) maximize economic value b.) have *good* jobs for people c.) have a high quality of life d.) have low levels of crime.?
So you say that America would be nothing without blacks; what would it be without whites? Africa is the answer.
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Will Whites cease to exist?
They will be gradually reduced to a powerless and persecuted minorty (possibly exploited for their ability and expertise), aliens in an alien country. Not a good thing to be.
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Without blacks, America would be a few musical genres poorer, and this isn’t to be taken lightly as jazz is one of the great original American art forms, but otherwise it would be just fine.
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So now you have a time machine, or a crystal ball? You know the future?
You have crossed the line into foolishness.
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@King
“Do you imagine that all Whites will be herded into dissolution chambers and rendered into viscous liquid? Will Whites cease to exist?”
Shhh… don’t give away our secrets!
@Nonserviam
You are exactly right. You should be very afraid.
@Piggy
Nice try, but I’m not a white supremo or HDBer. Blacks have died for this country and supported it’s economy for centuries. There would be no United States of America w/o Blacks.
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Whoa! I run to the shore for a minute and what do I see when I come back? “The Calling Card for White Degenerates” in full effect. I mean…”Racial Coat-Tail Riding masked as preservation.”
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@ nonserviam
Outside of unproven fear-mongering, what’s your proof that whites will be gone? Because last time I checked, whites have been saying they’re going extinct for ages now. When it doesn’t happen, they seem to keep adding on 10 years to the due date.
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I am just extrapolating from the current trends. Obviously, they may change, as trends do, but there are no indications of that so far.
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Piggy
The real question is what could Africa have been without Whites?
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LOL
I’m still laughing at nonserviam’s Prayer Circle (of Logic) of Perpetual White Supremacy.
– America is White Nation
– Therefore Whites *should* always be in positions of power
– Which means no-whites *should* not have power over Whites
LOL!!!
Nothing but breaking glass.
FRAGILE! This side up. FRAGILE!
Sounds like Abe Lincoln’s White Supremacy prayer/wish/preference:
“I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races . . . there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race . . .”
nonserviam has a wish, too. LOL
S/he WISHES the USA would fulfill Abe Lincoln’s White Supremacy dream. That’s why no so-called minority *should* ever have power over Whites. It puts to lie the whole set of centuries long schemes and wishful thinking known as White Supremacy.
nonserviam? It’s not supposed to work that way, huh? LMAO!!!
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Cynic:
“There would be no United States of America w/o Blacks.”
Instead of me discrediting this point I guess I should ask you to back it up with your reasoning.
King:
“The real question is what could Africa have been without Whites?”
And what is your answer?
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We’ll never know, Piggy, will we?
You see, it was overrun, and it’s culture was destroyed by a very violent and corrupt race of oppressors.
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@Piggy
Instead of me discrediting this point I guess I should ask you to back it up with your reasoning.
Naw I change my mind. From the year 1620 black people have been in America just laying around for centuries…
-Black people built the White House
-Our capitol was partly built from slave labor
-W/o using blacks for slave labor the US could NEVER of competed in the world economy. Cotton, tobacco, sugar, rice. Even the Northern manufacturers indirectly benefited from Southern slave labor
-More than 200,000 blacks fought for the Union in the Civil War. Some even fought for the Confederacy
-1.2 million blacks served in WWII
Once again, w/o blacks there would be no United States. Sh*t Europe would probably be sh*t also without slave labor in colonies, African colonization, and the exploitation that still goes on til this very day. We may not have the wealth that we produced for this country and the world, but that does not mean we have been doing nothing…
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@piggy: There would be no USA without the blacks as we know it. Why? Because without slave labour the other more powerful nations would have wiped it off the map sooner or later, like they did for so many others. The rapid economical rise in the early USA was possible only because of the support of slavery and majority of the slaves were blacks.
Without whites the so-called America would be a really interesting place, propably split into more European like continent made by different states run by the native americans. You do remember them, the real and original americans, do you?
@nonserviam: Man, you are running scared! And quite clearly you do not know diddy about history or cultural history.
“In any event, WN or not, he’s right. There’s no civilization without cultural continuity.”
Show me where and when “cultural continuity” has been broken? Only examples I can think of are the ones where white men wiped out entire tribe of natives somewhere in “New Land” or “empty land”.
Rome? I did not dissappear at all. It transformed into an idea out of which came EU. Roman roads drew the lines which still remain the bases of transportation infasructure in Europe. Your litterature is decends from the classical roman one, which was based on classical greek one etc.
Greece? I did not dissappear even as nation state.
Egypt? It’s culture lasted in very tight form for few thousand years but did it disaappear? No. It is in our religions, mostly. You know that the christian Amen is actually greeting to Amon, the egyptian god? You know that the staff of bishops comes from the spectre of the pharaos? You do know that the story of the resurrection and such was first told by the Osiris, egyptian god again? Madonna and child imagery is one to one with the imagery of Osiris and his mother, even in arts.
Jewish religion owns a lot to egyptian one and islam and christianity are based on that. So, get your history books out and read, my son, and you’ll be a lot wiser.
Your fear comes from within and some nasty men are using those fears for their own interest. And you’ll be the happy lad that will pay their bills, march in their troops and do the dirty work for them.
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@sam (Sun 1 May 2011 at 09:17:19)
You basically repeated Zek’s faulty reasoning. Instead of commenting on what nonserviam said you just called him racist and islamophobic. The statement “he is racist because people like him deserve to be called racist” is a lot like saying “he is dumb because people like him are dumb”. It’s unsubstantiated and it’s just calling him names. You should address the things he wrote instead of using ad hominems to discredit him.
@zek j evets
Oh, OK. For the sake of this argument, let’s assume someone called your reasoning retarded and you – a moron. You wouldn’t be upset about it, right? It’s just like being called a human!
Your reasoning is a straw man. Being called a human isn’t like being called names (words with obvious negative connotations).
I disagree with you thus I am a troll. So, now you are using an ad hominem to discredit me too? Brilliant. Calling me names doesn’t make you any less wrong.
Now I am going to quote Zek’s replies to nonserviam’s statements and show what is inconsistent in Zek’s reasoning.
A person can be anti-white, anti-Western and criticize America. These statements do not have to imply each other to exist together. Your argument doesn’t disprove nonserviam’s claims.
Straw man. Nonserviam believes Islam IS a violent religion and your reply doesn’t disprove that. You are telling him what Islam (or religion in general) CAN BE. IS and CAN BE are not the same thing. Nazism IS evil, but in the future it CAN BE just another discarded and forgotten (thus harmless) political ideology.
I’m not saying that Islam is like Nazism. That’s just an example that was supposed to show the difference between IS and CAN BE.
Legal definition of “religion”. Have you heard of it? If a religion is violent then USA law (the Supreme Court) probably wouldn’t recognize it as religion and thus the First Amendment wouldn’t apply.
I’m not sure what were you trying to do here. Show two examples of presidents who were linked to “shady” groups of people and then make a point about how ridiculous conspiracy theories are? If that’s it, then it’s a logical fallacy. “Shady” groups are not identical nor comparable.
I still think that you, Zek were calling nonserviam names and you cannot prove that he deserves them. You spotted one example of circular logic, but I’m pretty sure that’s not enough to call someone racist and islamophobic.
The funny thing is that I disagree with at least 90% of the stuff nonserviam wrote, but I am not going to reply to him by throwing ad hominems at him. That’s wrong too. Frankly, I do not understand why anyone would want to have a debate with him. Most of his claims are vague slogans and this kind of rhetoric is usually difficult to dispute.
@King
In the comment written on “Sun 1 May 2011 at 16:54:06” you attributed this quote:
“The more third-worlders settle in this country, the more it becomes like the third world”
to me.
These are nonserviam’s words. I do not agree with his statement.
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Oops, my mistake, eco. Sorry.
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This is dumb. Nonserviam is a racist. The end. Even w/o the HDB beliefs and comments dude is a racist. Just look at the comments were he advocates white supremacy. Who tf says only whites should be in positions of power in the U.S. Man GTFOHWTS!!!
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And I bet if you asked Nonserviam if Affirmative Action was racist he would say hell yes. Stop hiding in the closet. Just say who you are. The very first ppl who whine over “political correctness” are nonserivam types and yet he can’t even manage to say, “yea, I’m a racist. So what?” So dumb.
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@ Cynic
RE:Nonserviam
Shall I prepare the dissolution chamber???
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@ Cynic:
Here is how it works (from the point of view of many whites):
1. Racism is wrong.
2. Most white people are Basically Good.
3. Therefore most white people cannot possibly be racist.
Racism requires conscious ill will. And a lack of black friends. So a white person would know it if he were racist. Black people cannot tell – only imagine – because they cannot read minds.
As it turns out, the only white people who are racist are skinheads, Klansmen and people who use the n-word in a mean way. That is why race realists are so careful to separate themselves from Stormfront.
Any inequality in American society is due to bad genes and bad parenting. Because American society is Just So Goshdarn Fair.
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Cynic,
Affirmative action is by definition racist. It’s proponents might argue that such racism is justified to correct historical racism with the opposite polarity, however that does not change the nature of AA.
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To The Cynic:
-W/o using blacks for slave labor the US could NEVER of competed in the world economy.
Canada and Australia seemed to do pretty well for themselves… for that matter Argentina until the 1930s. (It was the 3rd wealthiest nation per capita in the world from 1900 to 1930..) The former slave regions of the US were the poorest from the end of the civil war till the 1960s. Without slaves we would probably have cranked up bonded labor from Europe. GDP growth in the US after the slave period was much faster:
http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/steckel.standard.living.us
Cotton, tobacco, sugar, rice. Even the Northern manufacturers indirectly benefited from Southern slave labor.
Much of the wealth generated by slavery was destroyed by the civil war.
Sh*t Europe would probably be sh*t also without slave labor in colonies, African colonization
The wealthiest countries of Europe are those that never had slavery or colonies (Switzerland, Finland, Norway, Ireland, Austria… ) or had their colonies taken away from them such as Germany. The poorest country of Western Europe, Portugal, using the per capita figures for the colonizing/slaving country had the highest number of African colonial subjects and imported the most number of slaves into the Americas.
Slavery makes some people very rich but overall does not improve the wealth of the land.
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To Randy Garver:
Affirmative action is by definition racist.
Well it isn’t racist by any of the multiple definitions I have seen… (I believe the first definition I read in a mid-70s Merriam-Webster dictionary was that racism was the fear and/or hatred of another race..) AA is by definition discriminatory on the basis of race but that is not the same as racism. Discrimination does not necessarily have to be negative. (think of the phrase discriminating tastes…)
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Uncle Milton,
I was using the term “racist” as a shorthand for “racially discriminatory”, which while nominally incorrect, seems to be part of the vernacular these days.
UM:
Many arenas where AA is applied are zero-sum situations, such as employment, public-sector contracts, and educational availability. You cannot advantage one group in such a manner without necessarily disadvantaging others.
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To The Cynic:
-W/o using blacks for slave labor the US could NEVER of competed in the world economy..
What really moved the US (and the globe…) forward economically was shifting from energy derived from wood (and sometimes water…) to coal and petroleum. The rise in GDP per capita coincides with energy usage. Slave labor is inefficient.
I would certainly agree that wealth was and still is generated for Whites from countries like the US, Canada, and Australia because the original inhabitants were displaced.
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@Randy
I don’t give a damn if Affirmative Action is racist or not. I was just giving an example.
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@ Uncle Milton:
I agree with the coal and petroleum bit but this idea that whites were incapable of making huge profits off of people who were forced to work for free is laughable. If white people are truly that brainless then slavery would not have lasted hundreds of years.
If you read the history you will find that most of the money was not made by the slave owners or the places where it was practised but back in Europe and the American North. As always, it is the middle men who get rich.
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@Randy
Switzerland, Finland, Norway, Ireland, Austria
All of these countries have tiny populations compared to the big slave and colonial European nations. Are you telling me we couldn’t find 8million people in the UK, France, and Germany whose isolated wealth would outnumber the aforementioned countries?
You also seem to be assuming that the Northern United States and those other Euro nations haven’t indirectly benefited from the exploitation of Blacks. Gtfoh w/ that! White ppl seriously cannot believe that their ancestors managed slaves and empires for CENTURIES just for sh*ts and giggles. You honestly believe these ppl were too dumb to stop their centuries long oppression? I mean if their weren’t any profits, what was the point?
Did you know that the wealth generated from slavery in the Caribbean and slave trading helped fund Great Britain’s industrial revolution? Where do you think all of these white nations would be w/o that?
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Eco,
If you disagree with his position, then why defend them? You seem to have invested a bit of typing to support his twisted, illogical, and now more blatantly obvious racism.
His further comments in the thread seem to support my conclusions, and yet you believe my earlier comment was somehow ill-made?? Hah! I called him out on what EVERYONE is now calling him out on. Which is that he’s a racist islamophobe. And guess what? He is.
The problem with nonserviam is that he stated are anti-White if you criticize America, implying that America stands for Whiteness. That is problematic because America does not stand for Whiteness, or is not meant to. Also, a huge number of Americans are not White. Thus, saying that if you criticize America you are anti-White (or even anti-Western) is laughable, and far more ridiculous of a tactic in shutting down debate than any label I have correctly identified with nonserviam.
Also, whether or not Islam IS a violent religion to nonserviam, the point is that even “violent” religions can be used for peace, just like peaceful religions can be used for violence. What’d Shakespeare say? “There’s nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.” Or, if you want to get biblical, check Romans 14:14, “I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but it is unclean for any who thinks it unclean.”
Point is, I was addressing that anything can be used for anything if the person or persons want to.
And take note that ANY religion is protected under the US constitution, even ones that may be construed as harmful. Freedom of religion is a guaranteed right of every American citizen, and more importantly, the President of the United States can be whatever religion he wants to be because he’s free to do so. It is not illegal to be a Muslim and be president. (However the president is obviously not a Muslim. We were just arguing about things his pastor said at church after all.)
Those are some examples from your rather long dissertation. And again, if you can’t see the logic… F*** off. Why? Not because you don’t agree with me. But because you can’t seem to understand basic English, and why waste time with someone who has a pathological need to remain ignorant and bigoted?
Which comes to the main question: are you ignorant and bigoted Eco? You say you don’t agree with nonserviam’s points, yet you defend them AND his reasoning for them.
Calling him names like racist or islamophobe is not ad hominem or straw man — it’s called a diagnosis. Now, when I call him an a**hole THAT would be ad hominem. Yes, they have negative connotations (unlike my “human” example) but they are also accurate, and speak far more to the argument than mere cursing. They identify the person as someone who is incapable of rational debate due to a prejudice which has been identified, and needs to be addressed. That nonserviam (and perhaps yourself?) seems unwilling to do so is a fact that his bias impairs his judgment. And I am completely comfortable mocking him for it. Why? Because laughter is a weapon, and comedy a tool that Jews know ALL TOO WELL that can be used against hateful people.
As for you Eco. Think about whether you’re arguing with me to be stubborn, or because you really believe in nonserviam’s position. If the former, I suggest you lower your pride a bit and acknowledge it. If the latter… I suggest you check in Bellevue.
Cheers
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@Randy
Here’s some colonial Dutch history about the cultivation system of the Netherlands East Indies(Indonesia) in the 19th cent,
“Peasants were required to cultivate 20 percent or more of their land in cash crops such as sugar or coffee to meet their tax obligation to the state. Sold to government contractors at fixed and low prices, those crops, when resold on the world market, proved highly profitable for Dutch traders and shippers as well as for the Dutch and its citizens. According to one scholar, the cultivation system ‘performed a miracle for the Dutch economy,’ enabling it to avoid taxing its own people and providing capital for its Industrial Revolution.”(Strayer 600)
How did the modern Dutch state not benefit from this? Why would they do this for centuries when they are seeing no profits? How did all of this wealth up and disappear?
Strayer, Robert W. Ways of the World: A Brief Global History. 2 Vols. Boston: Bedford/st Martins, 2009. Print.
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@ Cynic:
No, no, no, you are getting it all wrong!!! White people ONLY get rich through their own hard work and intelligence, through technology, good management and efficient economic systems. They pulled themselves up by their bootstraps. Everything else, like slavery and colonization, were costly, ill-conceived boondoggles. Apparently you did not read Uncle Milton’s comment with care.
😉
Seriously though, the Dutch in the late 1800s saw themselves as HELPING the East Indies through improvements in agriculture, like it was just out of the goodness of their hearts.
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The Cynic said:
Did you mean to direct that comment to a different commenter?
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To Abagond:
I agree with the coal and petroleum bit but this idea that whites were incapable of making huge profits off of people who were forced to work for free is laughable. If white people are truly that brainless then slavery would not have lasted hundreds of years.
Slavery has lasted thousands of years as you know…and I never said that some people did not achieve wealth from slavery.. but a handful of people getting rich off slavery over a century and half ago and more does not translate to the populace overall deriving benefit from slavery. I reiterate my example of Portugal (and there middle men of course) which is estimated to have brought over 1/3 of the African slaves to the Americas. Certainly some people became very rich but considering Portugal has been the poorest country in Western Europe for a century it certainly wasn’t lasting nor I would guess widely distributed. If most of the money derived from slavery was going to middle men in the Northern US as opposed to Southern slave holders, why did the North fight to end slavery and why did the South fight so hard to keep it..? (And in the declaration of separation from the Union South Carolina very clearly stated that it was their right to own slaves..)
Slavery made some people very rich but I would say overall net net it reduce the income of a country by squelching human capital. Most of the riches derived from slavery were destroyed by the civil war… and I reiterate my point that GDP growth in the US was markedly higher in the US after the civil war until the 1960s.
Looking outside of Europe we can look to the Turkey, the former seat of the Ottoman empire… which lasted longer than any of the Asia or African forays of Western Europe and also participated in slavery for centuries. When all is said and done Turkey is poor country.
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To Abagond:
No, no, no, you are getting it all wrong!!! White people ONLY get rich through their own hard work and intelligence, through technology and efficient economic systems and good management.
Of course that’s not what I said… you missed the point about me acknowledging what a boon Australia, Canada, and the US were to Europeans who displaced the original population. But I reiterate.. if slavery was such a benefit to the US why is it not markedly wealthier than Canada or Australia…?
Let me reiterate.. I am not saying some people did not become rich off slavery.. I am saying that overall the White population of the US nor Europe see no current benefit from the legacy of slavery.
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I reiterate my example of Portugal (and there middle men of course) which is estimated to have brought over 1/3 of the African slaves to the Americas.
should read
I reiterate my example of Portugal (and they had middle men of course) which is estimated to have brought over 1/3 of the African slaves to the Americas.
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@ Uncle Milton
“Slavery has lasted thousands of years as you know…and I never said that some people did not achieve wealth from slavery.. but a handful of people getting rich off slavery over a century and half ago and more does not translate to the populace overall deriving benefit from slavery.”
But it sounds as if you are saying that the money was never spent in the home countries of those who earned it. In order for the money not to have been a benefit, to the larger economy of the areas in question, the money would have had to have disappeared.
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“But I reiterate.. if slavery was such a benefit to the US why is it not markedly wealthier than Canada or Australia…?”
The U.S. is markedly wealthier than both Canada and Australia. … or at least it was 😦
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@Randy
Yea. For some reason I get you and Uncle Mil mixed up all the time
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To Cynic:
Euro nations haven’t indirectly benefited from the exploitation of Blacks. Gtfoh w/ that! White ppl seriously cannot believe that their ancestors managed slaves and empires for CENTURIES just for sh*ts and giggles.
Nope.. I don’t think most White people currently in the US nor Europe benefited from slavery. Rich people exploiting the hell out of one populace does not make the populace wealthy overall… see my example of Portugal… (Which is also has a relatively small population like Ireland, Finland, and Switzerland…) For that matter where’s the wealth of the Ottoman empire in it’s former center, Turkey..which was a vast empire that also engaged heavily in the slave trade?
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Yes, but rich people spend money, hire people, invest, and donate. Rich people are part of the economy.
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To King:
re: The U.S. is markedly wealthier than both Canada and Australia. … or at least it was..
CIA factbook says:
US GDP per capita 47,400
Australia GDP per capita 41,300
Canadian GDP per capita 39,600
For OZ and the Canucks:
Crime rate markedly lower
Cost of higher education markedly lower
The likelihood of getting financially wiped out due to medical costs markedly lower.
Longevity higher.
Infant mortality lower.
HDI higher.
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I’m not talking about “per capita” wealth, I’m talking about overall, cumulative, total national wealth. Not gross national product, mind you, but cumulative gross national holdings.
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@eco: “@sam (Sun 1 May 2011 at 09:17:19)
You basically repeated Zek’s faulty reasoning. Instead of commenting on what nonserviam said you just called him racist and islamophobic. The statement “he is racist because people like him deserve to be called racist” is a lot like saying “he is dumb because people like him are dumb”. It’s unsubstantiated and it’s just calling him names. You should address the things he wrote instead of using ad hominems to discredit him.”
What?? I never said what you, again, claim I have said. Not that I do not think that he is a racist, just like you are but are just too shy or too “clever” to play it differently. But I never said what you are supposedly quoting there. Why??? 😀
Besides I said what I said about this cultural discontinuaty thing. Read and learn.
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To King:
Yes, but rich people spend money, hire people, invest, and donate. Rich people are part of the economy.
Your local Tea Party types would love to hear from you!
But seriously yes rich people can put money back into the economy with a positive effect (Carnegie comes to mind…) but many historically are leeches that fritter away their wealth. I’ll expand on that later.
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@Uncle M.
Okay, let’s take this slowly. What do you think would happen if all of the wealthy corporate CEOs left the United States and took all of the ish with them(including their business)?
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“Sold to government contractors at fixed and low prices, those crops, when resold on the world market, proved highly profitable for Dutch traders and shippers as well as for the Dutch and its citizens. According to one scholar, the cultivation system ‘performed a miracle for the Dutch economy,’ enabling it to avoid taxing its own people and providing capital for its Industrial Revolution.”
Yup. Only benefits the select few…
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To The Cynic:
Yup. Only benefits the select few…
I was speaking of slavery and African colonization….
According to one scholar, the cultivation system ‘performed a miracle for the Dutch economy,’ enabling it to avoid taxing its own people and providing capital for its Industrial Revolution.”
I’d like to see the data for the Netherlands.. that is one person’s opinion… people can come up with a premise and then seek out selective data to support it.. Even so.. if you know the history of the Netherlands.. I’d say whatever benefit they may have derived from colonization was lost during and immediately after WWII.
But that said… a country, Germany, that had it’s colonies taken away from it and had it’s ass seriously kicked in WWI and then really seriously kicked in WWII is the biggest industrial power of Europe. Any benefit they derived from their colonies pre WWI was taken away from them.
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Yes, you’ll have to expand. From what I can tell, anyone who generates wealth and then say…
– hires carpenters to build a bigger house
– buys an enterprise from an owner who wants to sell
– donates money to a church or social group
– hires additional employees for his own primary business
– expands operations at home or abroad
– buys more equipment
– buys more luxury items
is benefitting his economy and not only himself. Now, if he withholds the wealth, then the benefit may be delayed, but much like energy, there is a conservation principle, and eventually the wealth has an effect SOMEWHERE. As long as the wealth is spent within the financial system of those who generate it, there will a dispersal of benefits to those who are eventually paid by it.
There are social consequences as to when the wealth is spent, and to whom it is distributed, but, on a national level, as long as it’s spent, the national economy benefits from it.
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To The Cynic:
took all of the ish
What is ish..?
What do you think would happen if all of the wealthy corporate CEOs left the United States ..
And we replaced them with people that actually paid attention to shareholders.. didn’t give themselves bonuses all the time and weren’t making between 400 to 1000 times the average worker but more like 40 times the average worker as it was in 1970? (when US growth rates were higher…..?)
Umm I’d say don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out… and oh yeah all of those wall street guys who paid themselves bonuses while you were f*cking the economy (and that goes also for auto execs at Chrysler and GM..) were are taking our money back.
Let me throw something at you… how many corporations still exist (without those that went into bankruptcy or government bailouts.. such as GM, Chrysler, IBM (Yep..) etc..) after 80 years…? A large majority of corporations implode and reorg after two or more generations.
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To King:
Yes, you’ll have to expand. From what I can tell, anyone who generates wealth and then say…
As I am sure you know there are different ways of generating wealth that have a very different impact on society.
The Super Bad:
Enslaving people bringing them across the Atlantic while wiping out the indigenous population so that they could produce a useless and somewhat addictive substances for consumption by Europeans. (Sugar and Tobacco…) Really I see little benefit for Whites as a whole aside from the growers themselves. (As as the grower population of Haiti found out.. in the end no benefit for them either..)
The Bad:
Cocaine dealers
Pablo Escobar and his ilk have done all of the below in Medillin… but I would hardly say they benefited Columbia.:
– hires carpenters to build a bigger house
– buys an enterprise from an owner who wants to sell
(Well ok… maybe killed the previous owner..)
– donates money to a church or social group
(Yep they did do that..)
– hires additional employees for his own primary business
– expands operations at home or abroad
(bang bang bang..)
– buys more equipment
(AK-47s..)
– buys more luxury items
(Oh my yes..)
I equate slavers with cocaine dealers.. albeit the former are morally much worse people.. but my point is.. that the way in which both groups acquire wealth does not, on the whole, move society forward economically. Certainly not benefiting the Black population nor on the whole befitting the White population. (although there were members of the latter who became quite wealthy…)
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Well, what you are saying is that the Medellín Cartel cost society more than it produced. You are not saying that the drugs that were sold did not help the economy—you’re arguing that the associated costs were greater than the direct economic benefits.
That is a different argument. If you are saying that slavery cost the US (economically) more than it generated, then I’d like to know what those costs were.
And again, wealth is much like energy, it always does work when it remains within a closed system. The only exception is if wealth is literally destroyed (by fire, flood…etc.) Otherwise, accumulated wealth will always benefit the society that it is accumulated in, as it is spent. When it is not spent then it is still has potential benefit.
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To King:
You are not saying that the drugs that were sold did not help the economy—you’re arguing that the associated costs were greater than the direct economic benefits.
What I am saying is that slavery and drug dealing are a waste or misallocation of human capital.
Otherwise, accumulated wealth will always benefit the society that it is accumulated in, as it is spent. When it is not spent then it is still has potential benefit.
Forced labor did not benefit the majority of the populace that was free but did not own slaves. Forced labor suppressed wages and suppressed human capital. It certainly made wealth for a relatively small percentage of the US population but much of that was extinguished with the civil war. War is pretty big reset button. The free people of the North were richer per capita than the free people of the South. Granted there were a bunch of fools who didn’t own slaves who fought for the South because they were conned by the wealthy planters. Did you see my link that showed that the US GDP advanced at much quicker rate after slaves were freed..? Much of the Southern wealth was destroyed by the civil war.
As for accumulated wealth… it tends to be transient… Mongolia, Turkey, and Portugal all of which were once huge slave trading nations relative to their home populations are now economic backwaters.
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To King:
Overall wealth of the US, Australia, and Canada…
If I had to choose citizenship these three countries … (forgoing family and friendships..) I would choose Australia (Canada is too chilly..)
Look at the cumulative wealth minus the cumulative debt (and debt obligations…) of each country. The way I look at it .. the US will eventually directly or indirectly default on it’s debt. Time will tell.
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@ Milton… You just like the women.
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To King:
Well I reread some of the economics of slavery in the Antebellum South.. I stand corrected… the South per capita (absent the slaves themselves…) was wealthier per capita than the North. (But not nearly as industrious … that’s why they lost…)
http://books.google.com/books?id=EFSbwGk2szgC&pg=PA285&lpg=PA285&dq=wealth+per+capita+South+pre+civil+war&source=bl&ots=qAHX0mt1EP&sig=DGtrcR7KNV27qcRO26bdTmEqsbs&hl=en&ei=XCK_TZ_sFoPi0QHq1pXLBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false
But most of this wealth was destroyed and per capita income did not match prewar income for a generation… the South…until at least the 1960s lacked the entrepreneurial capacity of other parts of the US:
http://www.jstor.org/pss/1054565
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Well, I certainly understand the lack of industry—certainly one of the many unintended consequences of slavery.
But if I can make a larger profit today by using cheap labor, I imagine that I should certainly make a larger profit by using free labor. It might not make me a stronger, or more capable, person but it should make me more profitable.
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Race realism and white nationalism are different things, despite the former often claiming to be the latter.
No it isn’t, same sh*t, different toilet bowl with maybe a better quality toilet paper or a bidet, depending how you present it. In this instance, I would liken these to two strands of thought to women haters and women beaters. For example, a woman beater may like to beat women but still claims to like them but in reality, really hates them and acts out their aggressions on them. Then there are the women haters with a capital ‘H’. They hate women and want to stay as far away from them as possible, at least they are honest in their dislike and will cuss a woman out two ways to Sunday(the white nationalist). They advocate staying as far away from the women as possible, and make no bones about it! I prefer the blatantly white racist ones as they are honest but at the same time hilarious as they are spewing their hatred in the form of obscene names and cuss words.
Because no civilization in history has survived the dissolution of its founding
The States is still a colony of Great Britain, only you don’t realize it !
Do you imagine that all Whites will be herded into dissolution chambers and rendered into viscous liquid?
Ever see the movie Soylent Green?
it will make ppl like nonserviam sh*t in their forever paranoid pants!
I think I’ll invest in Depends!
Because last time I checked, whites have been saying they’re going extinct for ages now.
No, they will just turn other people into ‘whites’ to shore up their numbers. Remember the Irish, Italians, Greeks and Jews? At one time they were not thought of as ‘white’. Now when the real whites realized that their numbers were low and that coloureds bred like rabbits, they turned these various groups into ‘whites’. But make no mistake, they are still Italians, Jews and Greeks to them(the swarthier ‘whites’).
Egypt? It’s culture lasted in very tight form for few thousand years but did it disaappear? No. It is in our religions, mostly.
I see you’ve read some Gerald Massey.
if slavery was such a benefit to the US why is it not markedly wealthier than Canada
Canada had slaves. Being a British colony(still is), slavery was abolished when Britain abolished slavery in their Empire in 1833. Also, Canada, at least the settled parts, were too !@#$%^& cold to sustain the slaves who would only be working half the year instead of all year round! Canada also has a markedly smaller population, even so, it is doing better than the other G7 nations. Regulating your banking system goes a long way you see.
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To Hereneith:
if slavery was such a benefit to the US why is it not markedly wealthier than Canada….
Canada had slaves….
Yes I was aware that Canada had a small number slaves but they were not nearly as intrinsic to the economy or character as in the US:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Canada#Research
And yes I know about the Canadian banking system… etc… but I am talking about pre 2007.
No, they will just turn other people into ‘whites’ to shore up their numbers. Remember the Irish, Italians, Greeks and Jews? At one time they were not thought of as ‘white’.
Can’t say for the other groups… but as for Jews I am embarrassed to say that the first Jewish Secretary of State in North America was not Henry Kissinger but Judah P Benjamin of the Confederacy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judah_P._Benjamin
So if Jews weren’t considered White folk in the US in 1861… what were those Confederates up to…?
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Actually Uncle Milton I can answer that,
Judah P Benjamin worked behind the scenes as “the brains of the Confederacy”, much the same way that Meyer Lansky was for the Italian-American Mob, who were — like much of America — anti-Semitic. And this is a common trope for individual Jews to be regarded as a “model minority” that is given a select position of power due to skills the individual possess that others do not, or do not to the Jewish individual’s degree. Judah P Benjamin was one such example, and unfortunately not one of my people’s best…
And I agree that “ethnic Whites” (such as Poles, Italians, Greeks, Jewish Whites, etc) were not thought of as “White” in the American sense of the word until recently because of nativism and cultural differences. There’s a long list of evidence for this embedded in American history. I believe Howard Zinn is an excellent resource, but there are others.
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To Zek:
Judah P Benjamin worked behind the scenes as “the brains of the Confederacy”, much the same way that Meyer Lansky was for the Italian-American Mob, who were — like much of America — anti-Semitic.
Judah Benjamin was a visible member of the Confederacy… first as Attorney General, Secretary of War, and then as Secretary of State… before that he had been elected to the US House of representatives and then the US Senate for antebellum Louisiana. Not discounting American antisemitism which became more acute with the migrations from Eastern Europe in the latter part of the 19th and early 20th centuries.. respectfully I don’t really accept Ingatiev’s thesis about some groups (Irish, Jews etc..) eventually becoming White. There are many examples from all of those groups that were fully accepted when they assimilated to American (or British..) culture. I can not say the same thing for Blacks, Native Americans, or Asians… possibly even today.
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When the first irish showed up on the shores of USA, one thing that no decent american liked was that they worked even cheaper than n*****s! Also, the pictures in the news papers made them look like apes in 1850’s.
During the italian immigration rush in late 1800’s and early 1900’s they were absolutely considered as non white men. They were garlic eating dirty criminals the whole lot and their women practiced witchcraft.
The jews were no allowed into some hotels as late as 1940’s and there was the so-called gentlemens agreement in which jewish people were actinf wasp and hotels were playing that they did not know visitors were jewish. And this happened AFTER the WW2.
Actually, during the 1928 national crime convention in Atlantic City, Al Capone exploded when one hotel refused to let his money guy Greasy Thumb Guzik in on the bases of his being jew. Irish and italian gangsters were welcomed in. Capone smashed a chair and a painting untill Nucky Johnson got rooms from another hotel.
I guess the guys at the reception did not totally understand who these gentelemen were.
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@zek j evets (Mon 2 May 2011 at 16:12:14)
I wasn’t defending his statements. I was attacking yours. Disagreeing with you does not imply agreeing with him, because there is the option that both of you are wrong.
His world view seems nonsensical to me and your ways of attacking it don’t look too good.
“His further comments in the thread seem to support my conclusions, and yet you believe my earlier comment was somehow ill-made??”
Yes. Because it’s an ad hominem and this kind of argument is never necessary. Generally, it shows that the person using it is out of ammo, doesn’t know how to dismiss the opponent’s statements and thus decides to attack the opponent directly. Usually to discredit him/her and dismiss all of his/hers claims without addressing them and proving that they are wrong. It’s a cheap shot that suggests your debating skills are poor.
What did you want to accomplish by calling him a racist and an islamophobe? Anything beside discrediting him and shutting down the discussion?
“I called him out on what EVERYONE is now calling him out on.”
Argumentum ad populum. People who agree with you do not have to be right.
“The problem with nonserviam is that he stated are anti-White if you criticize America, implying that America stands for Whiteness. That is problematic because America does not stand for Whiteness, or is not meant to. Also, a huge number of Americans are not White. Thus, saying that if you criticize America you are anti-White (or even anti-Western) is laughable”
Are you talking about this nonserviam quote? “You cannot be anti-American without being anti-(American) white.” It is true. If you are anti-American then you are automatically anti- (American)white, because whites are a subgroup of the American people. If you are not anti- (American) white then you cannot be anti-American. You need to be anti-(every)part to be anti-whole.
This does not imply that America stands for whiteness.
“Also, whether or not Islam IS a violent religion to nonserviam, the point is that even “violent” religions can be used for peace, just like peaceful religions can be used for violence.”
Oh yeah, let’s argue about semantics.
You are focusing on the form of his statement, not it’s meaning.
Yeah, religions are objectively neutral. People can use them for good or for evil. Sure. I think it’s obvious that nonserviam isn’t talking about the complete general perception of a religion. He thinks Islam is mainly being used to cause and support violence. This is the statement you should address.
“And take note that ANY religion is protected under the US constitution, even ones that may be construed as harmful.”
Any? OK. Try practicing the Aztec religion and after your first human sacrifice say doing it was your First Amendment right. Good luck!
A religion undeniably connected with acts of violence would have slim odds to be legally recognized as a religion in modern America.
“if you can’t see the logic… F*** off. Why? Not because you don’t agree with me. But because you can’t seem to understand basic English, and why waste time with someone who has a pathological need to remain ignorant and bigoted?”
How am I bigoted? How am I ignorant?
The problem is not my English. It’s your debating skill and the fact that you are prone to use ad hominems.
“They identify the person as someone who is incapable of rational debate due to a prejudice which has been identified, and needs to be addressed. That nonserviam (and perhaps yourself?) seems unwilling to do so is a fact that his bias impairs his judgment.”
Why do you think you can identify prejudice/bias? How do you know that a bias isn’t impairing your judgment? Are biased people capable of noticing their own bias?
I’m asking all these questions because I’m curious how far you are willing to go to rationalize name calling.
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Eco,
So I’m rereading your comments, and I think I’ve got the gist of your argument.
The only objection you’ve made is that you’re upset that I called nonserviam that which he has presented himself as (by his arguments and comments which you yourself condemn): a racist islamophobe.
And the funny thing is that you don’t disagree with what I think of his argument. You haven’t expressed anything but agreement with my position, with the facts presented against nonserviam.
All you’ve continually stated is that there are better ways of making an argument, haha!
Well, I’m sorry if I offended your delicate sensibilities! But when someone says something racist, or makes an islamophobic argument, I feel quite comfortable calling them one.
Your entire comment can be neatly summarized as nitpicking! Your panties are in a bunch because I had the audacity to call him what you already think he is! Hah!
Let me tell you something Eco, and pay attention.
Stop being such a pansy.
P.S. Now THAT is name-calling.
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@zek: 😀
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Sam,
; )
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Zek,
You are saying that I have problems with basic English? I have repeatedly wrote that both you and nonserviam are wrong. Yet you somehow say I agree with what you think of his claims. No, I don’t. He is wrong, but you are also claiming he is a racist and an islamophobe. I’ve never agreed with that part.
In the beginning I wrote you shouldn’t throw around these words without properly justifying them. Then you tried to justify them and all you managed to come up with was one case of circular logic in one of nonserviam’s statements. Thus you have proven I was right that your remarks were uncalled for. You had no rational reasons to call him names yet you did it anyway. The fact that you couldn’t disprove his claims proves I was right about one more thing – you used ad hominems to discredit him and shut down the discussion without having to debate him and prove he is wrong.
I also said ad hominems are never necessary because even if they are justified (yours weren’t) they do not give you any real advantage. You have to prove you opponent’s points are wrong anyway.
It’s easy to notice your behavior is illogical and emotional. You do not acknowledge the situations when I pointed out that you are using logical fallacies to defend your claims and you haven’t found a single one in my statements. You are the one who goes on rants/hissy fits
(like Sat 30 at 16:28:20 or Sun 1 at 16:31:23)
while I stick to the point. You are the one who calls me names. When your obvious wrongdoing is pointed out you are unable to acknowledge it.
Yet you are trying to portray me as the emotional, irrational one. Obviously to discredit me and dismiss my points without addressing them. That seems to be the only debating tactic you know.
Maybe you should take your own advice and
“Grow The F*** Up”?
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Abagond:
Obama made his birth certificate a big deal because he wanted it to be a big deal. What rational person would create a fake controversy just for the hell of it? Barack knew that some hardcore law and order conservatives and independents would get tricked into making a big deal about the issue, and that’s exactly what happened. I want Obama defeated in 2012 just as much as every other republican in the country, but folks on the right can’t get caught up with nonsense like Obama’s birth record, because it makes us look stupid, Point Blank!
Tyrone
Free Aquarius
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Shame this is such a stupid story. Poor guy having to produce all this evidence when he could be spending his time more usefully.
Just out of interest is there a link to the picture of the fake Kenyan birth cert? It sounds pretty hilarious!
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Its sorta’ funny that even though John McCain was born in the panama canal (which out side of the u.s I think???) no one considerd that a problem…he has even admited to spending time in country’s all over the world, with the Hanoi being the longest place he has ever lived in. He was almost disqualified because he him self was born outside the states!
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Msmartian,
It’s predictable. He has one thing going for him that exempted him from such accusations in this country. White skin.
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What was he hiding? We don’t know.
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