“It’s not race, it’s class!” is an argument that says that what seems to be caused by race or racism is in fact mainly being caused by class, by being rich, poor or middle-class.
This argument appeals to:
- Left-wing White Americans – also known as white liberals. They experience classism way more than racism and think being colour-blind is a good thing. So they like this argument. It also allows them to avoid facing up to their own racism and unjust position in society.
- Marxists – who like to blame class.
- Europeans – who live in countries that are almost completely white, where the effects of class are far easier to see than those of race.
It does not appeal to:
- Right-wing White Americans – who generally oppose raising taxes and changing society. If the ills of blacks and Latinos can be blamed on race, on something inborn (or even cultural), there is no need to raise taxes or change society. Better yet, if the ills of society, like poverty, drugs, crime and unemployment, can be blamed on blacks and Latinos, there is no reason to do anything serious about them either!
- rich whites – who use race to divide the working class in America, getting poor whites and even middle-class ones to vote against their class interests.
- poor whites – who have largely been persuaded by rich whites to blame blacks and Latinos, not rich whites, for the ills of society.
- skinheads and white nationalists – who like to blame race.
- middle-class blacks – who see that while education and money make life easier, they do not make white racism go away.
- poor blacks – who tend to blame white racism for their ills, but, like rich and middle-class whites, are not well-positioned to tell the difference between the effects of race and class.
Notice that while some whites blame race (how black people are born), blacks blame white racism (what white people do). Big difference.
The black middle-class and poor whites are, arguably, in the best position to tell the difference between race and class and how they affect people. For everyone else race and class line up in the same direction so it is hard to tell.
In America class does matter but race generally matters more. For example, poor whites live longer and read better than middle-class blacks. When I lived in Queens in New York City during the crack epidemic, blacks made better money than whites on average yet their neighbourhoods were on the whole far more violent. None of this you would expect from the white liberal view of America.
White American thinking about the nature of society and power has its roots in Europe, so it is easier for them to think in terms of class. But they do not live in an ordinary European class-based society. They live in a race-based one with roots in colonialism. On top of that, most of what they think they know about race are self-serving lies.
See also:
Yeah, race and other issues such as sex and religion can be used as tools in manipulating class issues. Basic con work in society, with the rich as one of the main culprits. Interesting write-up!
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“most of what they think they know about race are self-serving lies.”
——————————————————
Excellent line! Great summation.
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It’s not JUST race or class, but a series of difference markers that combine in chaotic fashion to produce limitations on or openings for an individual’s trajectory.
The “It’s class!” or “It’s race!” debate is rarely correct when applied in simplistic and reductionist form.
One of my most interesting memories of Hurricane Katrina was a black elder scholar from the Southern Poverty LAw Center being interviewed by a white-asian woman on CNN. She kept on trying to get him to say “What’s happening is caused by race!” and he kept on saying, “Sure, race is a part of it, but so is poverty. Rich black people got out and a lot of poor whites didn’t” Every time he tried to make that point, she’d interrupt him halfway through.
I sat there thinking “Yeah, that’s America for you. Race can be discussed ad nauseaum. Not that it’ll do much good. But bring up class and you’ve really stuck your finger in the country’s unacknowledged open wound”.
As an illustration of this, I bet that odds are that the vast majority of posters here have a pretty good and fixed idea of what race is, but I doubt hardly anyone knows what class is.
Hint: class isn’t strictly determined by how much money you have.
“Most of what they think they know about race are self-serving lies.”
This can be applied all across America, independent of color. I have it on the authority of Richard Wright. 😀
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“But bring up class and you’ve really stuck your finger in the country’s unacknowledged open wound”.”
I don’t know, you’ve said that before but I don’t see class as a taboo subject here. If class isn’t determined by how much money you have what is it then?
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“Europeans – who live in countries that are almost completely white, where the effects of class are far easier to see than those of race”
Abagond,
it’s not just the Europeans..I think that any country where the population doesn’t divide themselves primarily along racial lines use class as one of the dividing lines.. i.e. the Caribbean….
On your “It does not appeal to:” list, you basically described supposedly how the the majority of “real” Americans feel…but what about Latino’s and Asians who are US born for several generations? what do they think? (since you have the sign up about the Japanese internment)
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black people should take charge of their life and not use alleged “white racism” as an excuse to be unproductive members of society. Abagond – all you do is promote hatred and racism. You are continually driving a wedge between black and white people with this racist rhetoric. You should be ashamed.
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Money can buy a lot of things, but it can’t buy intelligence, love, or class…
Case in point – one of the wealthiest men in America, Donald Trump, has no class whatsoever! Same with the Hiltons…low-class white trash masquerading as royalty.
Sickening.
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@ sepultura13 –
I agree with you on Trump. The fact that you didn’t mention race is big.
However, regarding the Hilton’s, why can’t they just be “trash” and not have to be “white trash”? It’s always about race isn’t it? Just let it go already.
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You left out Conservative Blacks who often argue it’s not race, but class. Those would be people like Clarence Thomas and Ward Connerly.
Also many so-called post-racial Blacks argue that class is more important than race.
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it is class and race together in US. ok, me being european I tend to think this question from the class point of view. in my country there is huge difference between the haves and have nots. one guy earns 40 million euros a year, another less than 10 000. well, actually 28% of finns earn less than 10 000 a year. so , yes, i look at this from the political point of view.
however, it is strange that the blacks tend to be the majority of the poor in US.
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@Sam
Black people are NOT the majority of the poor in the U.S. Even among Black people, 75% of Black Americans are middle-class. And when you include everyone there are simply not enough Blacks to make up the majority of the poor. There are many times more poor Whites than Blacks.
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“In America class does matter but race generally matters more. For example, poor whites live longer and read better than middle-class blacks. When I lived in Queens in New York City during the crack epidemic, blacks made better money than whites on average yet their neighbourhoods were on the whole far more violent. None of this you would expect from the white liberal view of America.”
In these cases, there appear to be conditions related somehow to “race” and not economics that is driving the disparities in outcomes. But “racism” is not necessarily the culprit. Social disparites can have causes other than racism and economics.
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In my opinion “It’s not race, it’s family stability!”
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It is obviously about race. A country founded on racism cannot suddenly become “un-racist”. WTF stop drinking the koolaid
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From the point of view of someone who grew up in Europe, neither concept (racism or classism) are appealing in any way. Neither of the two are worth thriving for. They are both worth standing up against.
I’ve encountered many people who fall for the fallacy of claiming a reality that everybody has to face “if you like it or not”. Fatalism actually. But then at the same time they make a u-turn when they are confronted with a different, by their standards “exotic”, reality. The u-turn is – declare the reality as an ideology and zap! everything becomes a blank sheet waiting to be filled with all sorts of theories. Something perceived as ideology by one person can be another person’s reality. That’s the reality.
Just an example. European bankers, venture capitalists, business people etc are suspicious of other people’s ideas, especially novelty ideas of newcomers. They tend to only believe in substantials before they take a risk with no-names. In other words, you can have the most brilliant idea since the electric bulb but as long as you can’t come up with hard past sales figures, successes or own assets you won’t get a penny. They offer you employment though when they smell the potential. Or some kind of offer that keeps the idea “in their family” (and most of the profit and credits of course) and keep you the nobody you’ve always been. As someone with no or little credentials and no personal connections you are unlikely to ever get any funding for an idea alone to go on your own. Most European banks won’t even grant a loan for real estate or fixed assets – although it’s something that does have substance – unless you throw in 20% own capital. Not easy with the historically high real estate prices over here.
Now there are a few scenarios where all of the previous don’t apply —
* You were born into a well-connected family who did all the elbow rubbing with the big wigs while you were still wearing nappies. They probably also know a few bankers or investors who have already allocated a handsome loan to your super car tuning or lingerie startup company. What if you fail? So what. Peanuts. Income tax write off. Friends doing friends a favour, isn’t it?
* You’re a good talker. Charming, perhaps a bit understated, never obscene and always self-confident. You can be an utterly incompetent numbnut in factual matters but at least you’re able to convince your well-connected surroundings of the opposite.
* You were born into a family who is the one everybody wants to rub elbows with. Not much to do in this case unless you overdo sniffing the lines, harass flight attendants in first class or smash luxury hotel inventory.
* You’re a conman with no scruples whatsoever. We had quite few of those recently. Usually bankers, incompetent CEOs, investment gamblers and similar locust.
If none of the above applies to you, well, tough t*ts. You’re very likely to have to work harder for less than any of the above and first of all, work for others, never yourself. “Hey, not all of the bees can be born a queen, you know…” You grow up with it, you live it, you see it every day and you make it your principle that you won’t be part of those who keep bending over to get sodomised by an elite. An elite not by merit but by birth certificate, manipulative talents or big mouth.
Btw, the concept of innate “racial” solidarity is a fairly tale. The “dog eats dog world” is much closer to reality. The colour of the dogs makes no difference once they enter the ring. The ones on top (of any colour, nationality etc) don’t give a flaming toss about anybody (of any colour, nationality etc) they are not personally connected to. And even then, they really only care about themselves. A cornucopian bank account and an influential network combined with education make for an excellent buffer zone against all sorts of primitive assaults, racism included.
Too many have too little and too few have too much. That’s a reality. The ironic thing is that the majority of both are not even directly responsible for it. There is the non-working working class and the non-working upper class. Both growing at a rate never seen before. Both are financed by all those who are somewhere in between. For how much longer? That’s a reality. But the reality above all is favouritism and nepotism. That’s what creates classes in real life, not the theoretical ramblings of 19th century philosophers.
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@femi: good points there!
@ok val.
by the way, did anyone notice again: this is about political stuff and gets very few responses. bw/wm topic gets tons. 😀
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Bob,
Black people didn’t coin the term “white trash”, upper middle and middle class white folks did. White trash actually was more than just being poor, it had to do with behavior. Black folk used the term common to describe the same attributes. It is a class distinction and they got slightly more respect, but couldn’t go in the front door either.
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Excellent points Femi
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My comment is awaiting moderation because I quoted Abagond and his crude sexual metaphor. So I’ll try again:
Abagond, has anyone — even Karl Marx — ever really put forward an argument that consists of: “It’s not race, it’s class”?
Or is this post a reaction to my comments that the last part of your “Teflon theory” post is ridiculously simplistic?
You brought up class in your reply to my criticism, saying: “American history is a skinhead’s [edited out] come true. To think class affects one’s view of it more than one’s race goes against common sense”. And now this post appears, implying that there are people somewhere who have an argument that consists of: “It’s not race, it’s class”.
So, I accuse you, again, of being ridiculously simplistic, of creating a straw man.
And also of not knowing what you’re talking about:
“…Europeans – who live in countries that are almost completely white, where the effects of class are far easier to see than those of race.”
Oh, no they aren’t. Racism in France, Spain, Turkey and the UK is very obvious indeed. France imported from North Africans from its ex-colonies as cheap labour in the sixties. Germany imported Turks. “Guest workers”, they were called in Turkey. They stayed and now their children and grandchildren experience police harassment and higher unemployment on a noticeable scale.
Spain started later, but now it has a big latin American population. It’s really obvious that Bolivians and Colombians are seen as a sort of servant class by white Spaniards. Real estate agents lie to the them and tell them the place is gone, or they ask for more money. Lower-class characters on the US TV shows dubbed into Spanish have their lines dubbed with a Mexican or Central American accent, even if they’re white. I could illustrate with a lot of anecdotes, but this is getting a bit long.
I could illustrate with twenty nasty little stories just from what I’ve observed, but it would get a bit long. I haven’t even mentioned the Rumanian gypsies or the black Africans from further south who survive the sea leg of their journey and get stuck in Malta.
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Maruja:
I know full well that Europe is racist. You missed one of the most terrible examples of all: the Holocaust. But I do not know how clear it is to the white people there.
Some commenters from Europe come to this blog and shake their heads and act as if racism is some American thing, that they are above all that.
Also: even in America where racism is as plain as day, most white people think it is pretty much dead! They discount what blacks say as whining and complaining. And when you point out their extremely racist past that even they will admit to, like slavery and Jim Crow, they say that it is too long ago to matter – thus my post on the Teflon Theory of History.
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Maruja:
“Abagond, has anyone — even Karl Marx — ever really put forward an argument that consists of: “It’s not race, it’s class”?”
Yes. Google it and see. It is brought up on this very blog by whites who try to deny racism. If you read Obama’s “Dreams from of My Father”, you will see that the community organizer who brought him to Chicago in the 1980s was a white man who thought that blacks suffered from poverty but not from racism. And it is not just him – in America it is a stock white liberal position.
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Sam said:
“however, it is strange that the blacks tend to be the majority of the poor in US.”
Not true, as Val pointed out. That belief comes from two things:
1. The main examples of poverty close at hand in New York and Los Angeles where most of American television comes from IS black and Latino poverty. But most poverty in America is white poverty out in the sticks far away from big cities and television cameras.
2. In the 1970s Republicans racialized poverty, Reagan in particular with his welfare queen stereotype. This was done so whites would not care about it and taxes could be cut on the rich, as was done in the 1980s under Reagan and again in the 2000s under Bush.
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Val:
Right, I left out black conservatives since I did not know where to put them.
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FG said:
“In my opinion “It’s not race, it’s family stability!””
And this, presumably, is unaffected by high rates of unemployment and imprisonment of black men? The Leave it to Beaver world is based on cold hard cash and stable employment.
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In America it is race, than class. In the 1900’s through the 1960’s you had wealthy black Americans who were limited in how they could ‘move about’ the country. Class is huge for non-blacks; in America, based on American history, for black Americans, ‘race’ IS class. Too many stories even today of wealthy black folk being followed in stores, driving luxury vehicles and being stopped, being mistaken for ‘the help’, being stopped in their own wealthy neighborhoods, receiving shoddy service in upscale boutiques. Lena Horne told how during WWII German prisoners were seated in front of all black soldiers during USO shows. Class or race?
Recently, an entertainer w/financial means was denied the right to purchase a home, based on his race. He offered twice what was being asked, and was flatly refused. I have blacks students telling me how they are perceived as janitors; student laying in dorm room on her bed watching television, a white family enters the room, and asks if she would clean up a spill in the hallway; horrified, she suggests that they contact cleaning services, they look at her and ask, “that’s not you?” Class can become an issue within black American circles, ie. Sigma Pi Phi Boule, Jack and Jill, and those discussed in Grahm’s, ‘Our Kind of People’, who live and summer on Martha’s Vinyard. I’ve had some snobby black Americans inform me of their ‘status’. Not funny. lol!
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Linda said:
“it’s not just the Europeans..I think that any country where the population doesn’t divide themselves primarily along racial lines use class as one of the dividing lines.. i.e. the Caribbean….”
Right, in those countries class will matter more.
In my experience when those people come to America they first blame race (“What’s wrong with black Americans?”). If they are white they can go on blaming race but if they are not then after a point they experience enough racism first-hand to know that it is not so simple as white people make it seem.
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@ yeap, I admit my view on this was distorted by my own experiences in the big cities back in the 80’s (and undeniable media manipulation). True, I did meet some middle class blacks and even some well to do, but majority were working class or below people.
But my point was that for somehow it seems that in USA classa and race are intervowen. Right, there are poor whites too, fact, but latinos, many asians, blacks etc. seem to be struggling at first at least to get the social climbing going on. And for some reason, it seems to be much more difficult for blacks to cross the class divide, unless you are a well known entertainer or athlete with loads of money and fame.
I might be wrong here.
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shoots, that was for abagond 😀
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Race is a made-up concept designed to split the poor into “races” so they will fight among themselves and not rise up against the wealthy. It started in the 1700’s and is still being perpetuated today.
While the discrimination is by people’s perception of “race”, the fact that people refuse to see that “race” is ALL about class means you miss the point entirely. The rich who perpetuate this I’m sure are laughing right now.
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yes i think this is a very interesting post. i have been attracted to attaching greater importance to issues of class than to issues of race. yet the intersection between the two issues is so unclear as to be almost impossible to untangle.
i am not sure that i entirely agree with you, though, that this point of view does *not* appeal to rich whites. one thing that often disturbs me in the discourse on race that comes out of the US is a focus on the racism of “poor people”. racism is portrayed as something that white people who live in trailers feel, that is expressed in crude, ugly and heavily accented voices. this simplistic portrayal lulls all whites who don’t fit into this *cultural* category into a false sense of superiority which, i believe, makes racism much harder to tackle in those people.
i know you touched on this when talking about white liberals, abagond, but it really applies to *all* whites who don’t fit the “trash” stereotype.
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LOL – I made a dog bark! Wow…didn’t take long! : D
* climbs on a rooftop and clears throat *
Paris Hilton is a sleazy, diseased, racist, slutty WHITE TRASH wh0re, no matter how much money she has! Google or YouTube her comments regarding black people, especially those in the entertainment industry – should be easy to find; ‘Paris Hilton mocks blacks’ or ‘Paris Hilton pretending to do hip-hop’ might bring up those articles or footage.
I stand behind my statement. White racists are WHITE TRASH!!
* Leaps away into the night *
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@oyan–
great comment about how racism occurs even when blacks are upper middle class or wealthy.
true story: a few days ago i was reading a feminist blog (mostly white ladies). responding to a post, one of the regular commenters made this statement “so what are the darkies in the white house doing about…” referring to Pres. Obama, et al.
sometimes the “it’s class, not race” argument just doesn’t hold up.
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“In my experience when those people come to America they first blame race (“What’s wrong with black Americans?”). If they are white they can go on blaming race but if they are not then after a point they experience enough racism first-hand to know that it is not so simple as white people make it seem”
Abagond,
I don’t think we (Caribbeans immigrants) blame race when we talk about black Americans…at least for me and fellow West Indian’s I know… what I think Caribbean immigrants react to is in response to how the black Americans treat us initially and how they look at us like trespassers and insult us as “suck ups” because we are more interested in making money and will smile with the white Americans (it’s easier to catch a bee with honey than with lemon)…
hell, as an immigrant, everyone (black/white) looks down on us because we have no problems working the shit jobs that Americans no longer want to do….
Also, I don’t think we are blind to racism either, it’s just that in the pursuit of the almighty dollar, we (Caribbean immigrants) care less about racism in the beginning because it gets in the way of going up the ladder…we need information to build a life in this country, so whatever it takes to get from point A to point B, we do it….
I think once we get established with finances and education…that is when Caribbeans begin to care about racism being an issue because it then becomes an irritant in the next upward move, but it certainly is not a deterrant
I think most Caribbeans could care less about what white Americans think about us….
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@Linda
I don’t want to sound patronizing, and really don’t want to burst your must needed bubble of euphoria but…
…what are you going to do when the children of your children will inevitably consider themselves fully american citizens with right and opportunities.
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Linda:
I was talking about immigrants in general, but right, in the case of black immigrants they can hardly blame race. But in my experience they still do wonder what is wrong with black Americans since at first they underestimate the degree of racism in the country.
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JGreyden,
what euphoria are you referring to? do you think I am oblivious to the stereotypes and racial crap that black Americans face…that same crap falls on me as well…
Abagond is referring to the attitudes that Caribbean immigrants have towards black Americans and linking it to racism…which is not the reason why islanders “wonder what is wrong with black Americans”…
and I am saying that we (Caribbean immigrants) have an attitude towards black Americans due to differences in culture..
and yes, Abagond, for sure we do underestimate racism at first because initially it doesn’t affect our main priorities…which is financial stability…
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Linda,
What I think what is not understood is that to most Americans who are Black, we don’t necessarily see race as a deterrent, but as an irritant, life altering and sometime life threatening. It has to do with ones right to pursue happiness and have all those rights guaranteed by the constitution. There have been middle class and rich Blacks in this country even during slavery (among the free Blacks), but from a personal experience, being Black middle class and going to an integrated suburban school didn’t prevent my sister’s car from being destroyed on our fathers property, because she was against the playing of Dixie at school functions. The fact that there was a Black person responsible for the entire math curriculum in the public school system didn’t mitigate racism, nor even the fact that you couldn’t tell the difference between the white and Black middle class from the look of their neighborhoods. I get the impression that immigrants come to this country and believe anything about Blacks the white man says and never think that there are other Blacks beyond their narrow experience.
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Hathor@
“I get the impression that immigrants come to this country and believe anything about Blacks the white man say”
I think you are right…most immigrants come here (US) with partially preconceived ideas about white and black Americans and buy into the stereotypes.
I can’t stand when I here other immigrants talk bad about black Americans because they (immigrants) are ignorant about the history of black people in this country (US)…
I think there is a disconnect because many immigrants don’t consider the US home initially and don’t think about civil liberties because the constitution does not apply to us as green card holders…
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Thank you Hathor@Thu 4 Nov 2010 at 22:33:23 .
When ‘others’ came/come to this country and find us here, in the 1900’s to the present, why is it they only see the ‘worst’ of ‘us’? All of that historical struggle, ‘up from slavery’, educating through burning crosses, snarling dogs, water hoses, and all can be ‘seen’, are complaining, whiney, lazy good-for-nothings. Seriously? My Black American family represent hard working people; there are a few’rabble-rousers’, but for the most part, we are ministers, college professors, pre-school teachers, transportation management, licensed-real estate workers, social workers, and yet to other’s, ‘we’ are ALL of those few relatives who are in jail, unemployed etc. It’s maddening I tell ya. I myself have several degrees, and I cannot tell you the many ‘other’ very proud, honorable and amazing folk I have had to correct constantly, on my very hard earned academic accomplishments. One beautiful young West Indian sister even told me once, that, West Indians raise their children to be managers and supervisors, not office workers and ‘grunts’ like you black Americans. wow. ok, back on topic…
The capitalist system which this economy is built on, depends on race, ethnic, gender and class strife, so, I understand. But it is very irritating…
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I cannot the last time America was referred to as a classist society. Can you?
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There is one thing many US-Americans are apparently not really aware of, as it is part of their fundamentals.
Money is not just a means to an end. It’s worshipped, a fetish. It’s a moment, albeit ephemeral, of fame, status and power potentially for everybody. You don’t need class for that (however you want to define class). On top of it, it always appeared to me that it’s less about the fact how much you have in absolute terms but truly about what you have more than somebody else. It’s not only “look what I have” but first of all “look what you don’t have and I wish you never will”. The silly “L” hand sign on the forehead comes to mind.
Strangely enough for an outsider, as a direct feedback there’s a lot of respect and admiration for individual “achievements” (material wealth) even though it may have been obtained through obscure and, probably often, questionable channels. There’s much less admiration and respect though for achievements of collective interest whose methods are clearly documented and accessible to the public. Not only is there admiration for the personal wealth of others, the wealthy can (have to?) secure themselves behind an impenetrable shield.
Class? Those who are on top don’t have to think about it and those who are on the bottom don’t want to think about it. One day, perhaps – very perhaps – they believe they might get rich too.
Many Americans of all origins live the “1% dream” whereas in Europe, Africa and Asia most people live the “99% reality”. That is, as a non-option. You better dream only when you’re asleep at night or you might lose your livelihood…
A few big thinkers, celebrities etc (I don’t remember who was first) keep quoting the phrase “you’ll never get wealthy with integrity and honest work”. Many cultures are well aware of it but only some choose to poke into the swamp of details to make the dirt bubble up which hides behind the populistically appealing facades. And then you have the simpletons who call it “envy”.
While Europe, Africa, Asia and probably also Caribbean born and raised people might be called colour blind, a lot of Americans are class blind. It’s a side effect of social Darwinism.
However what I’ve noticed during my years in the US, in their Darwinian struggle to reach the narrow end of the funnel, minorities, including immigrants of all origins, were always the most down to earth and had the most human decency. A trait which seems to be considered a mental disorder by those who come along in bulldozers.
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Oh dear. Sorry about the bold font.
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@ femi: I think you are on to something here.
In US I met scores of people who were talking about some succesfull uncle or somebody and it was always moneywise. Never ever I heard anybody to say he/she was success because he/she raised three good kids, helped someone etc. It was: he/she made it and he/she is rich.
Even though I tend to link racism and class I admit that money can really buy you out of class or racism in US. Rich and famous black athletes and/or entertainers move in the same social circles as do the rich whites. Their experience might be different, but they still move into same social circles.
Money seems to be the one measure which counts as for the individual success. If you make it, that means you became wealthy. The bottom line counts, like it is said. If you have enough money, it doesn’t matter are you black or white or what. Enough dough and it doesn’t matter what you have done to get it, who you are.
In 1976, if I remember correct, guy called Moe Dalitz was chosen as Mr. Las Vegas, one of the highest honors that city can give to anybody. He build hospitals and stuff like that and was ofcourse was in casino business. What nobody cared at the time was this: he was one of the biggest gangsters in US history ever. Once a member of the Detroits infamous Purple gang and a bootlegger, gambler etc.
Joseph Kennedy was heavily involved with well know mafiosi in bootleggin back 1920’s and he also used dirty tricks to destroy his opponents in movie business etc. in 1920’s. Some decades later his son was in the White House.
Rockefeller, Morgan, all those guys would be in todays terms as organized crime bosses. They murdered, stole, cheated, lied, did everything and yet, how do we remember them? They were the richest men in the world!! They made it.
@femi: I read this once: Honest people have no morals, Lefty Ruggiero, Bonanno family mafioso 😀
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where this bold font came from? I’m not using it on my pc!
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I’m not sure how big of an issue class is in the US. Yes, there is a great deal of income and wealth inequality, but incomes on the whole are so high that even if you’re close to the bottom of the distribution you would be considered well-off in many other developed countries. I remember reading somewhere that the per capita income of Germany (one of Europe’s richest countries) is similar to that of Arkansas (one of the poorer states of the US). I think the major problem in the US isn’t so much poverty or class, but rather dysfunctional behaviors like drug abuse, out-of-wedlock births, overeating, etc ..
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Why do the Republicans hate Obama so much? is it a class thing I’m failing to understand?
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LMAO – this is too funny! A person who says this:
on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 16:40:39 Bob
“why don’t black men date black women is a better question.
Black men won’t even date black women. Why? Why is this?
People of the same race won’t date you? Makes you wonder.
White is better plain and simple.”
…and this:
on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 16:54:57 Bob
“@ King, What? I don’t take drugs dude or stupid or lazy pills. I think a higher percentage of black people take drugs and drink malt liquor than whites. And blacks commit more crime and more crime against white people. Not too many white gangs around are there? Mostly black people in gangs and prison. Sounds about right.”
…has the gall to make a feeble attempt at castigating me for bringing up classless, WHITE TRASH scumbags who just happen to be wealthy? Too funny. (see posting at on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 17:03:57 Bob in this thread)
Methinks they need to go back to StormFront to be amongst their ilk, since “it’s always about race”! They really need to get over it – better yet, they need to get over THEMSELVES…
King said:
on Wed 3 Nov 2010 at 16:47:23 King
“Bob the vast majority of Black men date and marry Black women… Marriage statistics @ around 86% or so..
Did you actually check or did you take your stupid pill and your lazy pill at the same time this morning?
To me, an even better question is why White Men are marrying Asian women? Why? Why is this? People of the same race won’t date White? Makes you wonder. POC must be better, plain and simple.
See, it’s like Mad Libs, anyone can play!”
* Applauds King *
Well said, well said! : )
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Just thought I would fix this. Its over due. Its caused by missing out the “/” in the bracket bold, italic, etc..
So I added one!!
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Maybe not…
Over to you Abagond!!!
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Fixed.
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Abagond said,
“I know full well that Europe is racist. You missed one of the most terrible examples of all: the Holocaust.”
1)
You do know that the Holocaust was over a half a century ago, mostly carried out by ONE country–Germany. You’re looking at 2010 Europe like it’s 1930 Europe. You’re reasoning is invalid.
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well, calculator: lets not forget Bosnia, Kosovo etc. 300 000 ruffly dead. Not a small thing and done in the 90’s in Europe. Even if there is not that much instutionalized racism here, there it is. Lets not kid ourselves.
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Bosnia and Kosovo were over religion… also, similar ways of thinking happened within white “look” standards with the invasion of the nords. The difference being that in Europe, country of origin matters more than race [but not as much as class]. If the Irish were black, the slurs would be considered racist, but since they aren’t, a different word would have to be applied.
Even in this country, at one time the IRISH were discriminated against, and put into a loop that could just as easily be called slavery by todays standards [like the workers at the Foxxconn plants in China that make our computers and iDevices, putting all their cash back into company run stores on the complex]. White and Native American slaves were also taken, although the only school system where this is taught is in Virginia because they are obsessed with history[Jamestown, etc, it all started there].
I hate it when a view doesn’t consider all views and all sides of history. It just makes for an ignorant final outcome. Speaking of the Japanese, what happened was the worst fear-mongering, ever. That being said, it didn’t stop them or other Asians from having incredible statistics in all aspects of society, without the need for social programs, etc. I feel as if many African-Americans forget who was basically forced to build the railroads. Yet, these groups succeeded beyond all imagination. They chose to work past racism instead of being hung up on it. The resulting ‘feelings’ of racism can sometimes be a bigger block to climb than choosing to work past it.
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Logic2.Zero,
yada, yada, yada…
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I think Logic2.Zero has a point: minority groups like Asians tend do extremely well. Heck, Asians are one of the smaller minority groups, with Hispanics and Blacks each outnumbering Asians by more than twice their number. In fact, the median family income for an Asian family is well over $10,000 comared to a white family, putting Asians at the top of the income ladder. Asians also score higher on SATs and do better in school compared to every other ethnic group including whites. One in five people at Harvard are Asian even though Asians roughly make up about 5% of the U.S. population. In one California university, Asians make up half of the student population. So, I think maybe some blacks need to pick up the Asian-style work-ethic and stop complaining. Yes, there might still be rascism, but that doesn’t mean you should give into hopelessness.
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I know full well that Africa is rascist. You missed one of the most terrible examples of all: Darfur. (Rwanda too.)
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“It’s not race, it’s family stability!”
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@calculator
“It’s not race, it’s family stability!”
Remember what happened when Obama said something to that effect and Jessie Jackson got caught calling him a “racist” term? Jessie Jackson and a lot of other black leaders are holding down the African-American community, in the same way that George W Bush was holding down the white community. Not directly, but through a method of disservice to future generations.
Obama sees it, but it would be political suicide to say such things directly. Sucks.
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@Logic2.Zero:
Things slow at stormfront.com?
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“Things slow at stormfront.com?”
Try the “poetry” section – I hear it’s excellent!
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How are Jesse Jackson and other black leaders (whoever they are) holding down the black community? Was protesting a gun store from selling weapons to black gangs in Chicago a bad thing? I mean I’m confused, what is he doing that makes whites hate him so much?
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Ann:”How are Jesse Jackson and other black leaders (whoever they are) holding down the black community?”
Broadly speaking, Jesse Jackson is a shakedown artist who peddles the narrative of victimology to the detriment of those he’s supposedly trying to help.
One of my relatives had the misfortune of being a target of his “PUSH Coalition”, an organization with laudable goals but thuggish and brazenly self-serving methods. It’s “race theater” at its most cynical.
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[…] Even though he puts forward a “problem” that is framed as being ethnicity-specific, he dismisses the relevancy of ethnicity in the same breath (etnische afkomst is irrelevant,…); he argues that these “problems” are the result of socio-economic factors: it’s a class thing. […]
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[…] […]
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[…] Even though he puts forward a “problem” that is framed as being ethnicity-specific, he dismisses the relevancy of ethnicity in the same breath (etnische afkomst is irrelevant,…); he argues that these “problems” are the result of socio-economic factors: it’s a class thing. […]
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@Kiwi,
Thanks for digging this up. I found it interesting that Abagond used a picture of the War time call for all Japanese Americans to have themselves incarcerated, but then the analysis in the post completely ignores the effect of “race” and “class” has on Asian Americans.
What he has done, though, is bring up the point how race and class arguments are divided between white liberals and white Republicans. If it can explains how they see whites and blacks, then it helps to describe how they describe Asians too.
To get the full picture of the race v. class issue, in addition to asking middle class blacks and poor whites how they see things, it might be necessary to ask Asians also, both middle / upper middle ones and lower middle / working class / poor ones.
So Abagond’s statement
might be more applicable more to blacks and whites than it does to people not black or white.
Kiwi, how much opportunity do you get to meet poorer working class Asian Americans, not from the brain drain, e.g.,
-“Old School” Asian Americans who were not so upwardly mobile
– refugees
– post 70s economic migrants who entered the US economy at the bottom.
in the 1980s, I worked in an Asian restaurant for many years. The dishwashers were from Vietnam and Cambodia — 2 of them got married and invited me to their weddings and another went to Houston to chase a girl he knew. In the 1990s, I used to help out at a friend’s garment factory in lower manhattan, so I got to meet all the people who worked to sew and stitch clothing. Even myself, I spent my early childhood in the back of a laundry.
But I also went to a churches for a while that were almost entirely brain drain families. Later I worked in a professional field that attracted mostly brain drain graduates.
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Kanye West and Kim Kardashian have tons of money but no intelligence.These people are talentless hacks but because of reality television America has made the fools rich hand over fist. It is not always about race class plays a huge part as well. Athletes and music celebrities are included in this as well. These people have more money than common sense and no intelligence.
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if racism is the goal, surely class is a necessary tool towards the means
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as well as force
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class is the ways in ways and means
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strik that reverse it if racism is the end class is one of the means
ugh i lost that one anyway
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Then how come germans in america weren’t placed in internment camps….Oh, I’ll wait..
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Pure B.S, a re-write of history to address your white supremacy.
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And wikipedia? Meanwhile every elite Nazi was brought over to the americas after WWII.
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@L of M,
You would enhance your credibility if you would stop making the discussion about your feelings and argue your objections in a dispassionate manner. If you make it about your feelings, it looks like you are whining.
Not only whites hold attitudes and perform behaviours that support white supremacy. So do blacks, Asians, Native Americans and Hispanics — I just witnessed loads of these examples in my recent trip to the USA. America is rife with it. Would it make you “feel” better if we said “our” white supremacy?
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Very few Germans were said to ever be in those internment camps. So few I not sure of relevance.
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German Americans, unlike Japanese Americans in California, were not rounded up en masse simply because they had German roots. No one was sending Eisenhower to a prison camp.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
But her point still stands.
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L.O.M. pointed out a true fact. There were, in fact, German internment camps during WWII. Far different situation than the Japanese camps, but they did exist.
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@King
Weren’t Italians in those camps with them?
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sharinalr, as best I remember it (being too lazy to research it properly) I believe that there were even fewer Italians interned than Germans. I believe that you had to be an actual Italian citizen to be interned. But I think that the Italian and German populations were concentrated in different parts of the country, for the most part. So I’m not sure if most of them were together. I know the Japanese were in a bad situation because they were concentrated on the West Coast near Japan and in a place were the Japanese were most likely to strike if they ever invaded the mainland. So they were seen as a serious threat. I remember something about Zones… I think Exclusion or Inclusion Zones within which internment camps were thought to be necessary.
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The amount of Germans incarcerated during the war was miniscule. German Americans are the largest ethnic group in America. They would have had to lock up millions upon millions including people like Eisenhower to name one. They didn’t. I suspect they were treated much better than the interned Japanese. I remember a story about Lena Horne entertaining at an army base during WWII. The German POWs were sitting up front whilst the Black soldiers were sitting at the back mirroring segregation. Lena Horne walked out. This is anecdotal but you get the gist.
http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21642222-americas-largest-ethnic-group-has-assimilated-so-well-people-barely-notice-it
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“It’s not race, it’s class!” is an argument that says that what seems to be caused by race or racism is in fact mainly being caused by class, by being rich, poor or middle-class.
This argument is, as it stands like this, appealing to me as European indeed. And then in the following interpretation:
“When you compare crime rates and race, blacks have higher crime rates indeed. However, if you look further and put in several sociological factors like income and social status as well, you’ll see that the crime rates of blacks and whites do not significantly differ.”
I do believe from the rest of your text that your interpretation of the argument is not the same as mine. That’s regrettable.
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@ Jeff
Huh? Where is that second quote coming from?
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To Jefe:
If you make it about your feelings, it looks like you are whining.
Really… ? L of M objects to being called a white supremacist and you call that whining..? Basically that’s an ad hominem.. and Lord of Milkwood was fairly mild in his protestation of such…would you have preferred he said nothing at all leaving the readers of this blog, unfamiliar with his past posts to assume he is a white supremacist..?
In your wisdom what is the best way to react on this blog to an accusation that diametrically opposite to one’s world view..?
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@abagond
It was my interpretation of an argument I’ve heard in several discussions I’ve read and participated in.
For a direct quote from someone with authority: the best I could find so far was this from Steven E. Barkan:
Why do these differences exist? A racist explanation would attribute them to biological inferiority of the groups, African Americans and Latinos, with the relatively high rates of offending. Such explanations were popular several generations ago but fortunately lost favor as time passed and attitudes changed.Today, scholars attribute racial/ethnic differences in offending to several sociological factors (Unnever & Gabbidon, 2011).Unnever, J. D., & Gabbidon, S. L. (2011). A theory of African American offending: Race, racism, and crime. New York, NY: Routledge. First, African Americans and Latinos are much poorer than whites on the average, and poverty contributes to higher crime rates. Second, they are also more likely to live in urban areas, which, as we have seen, also contribute to higher crime rates. Third, the racial and ethnic discrimination they experience leads to anger and frustration that in turn can promote criminal behavior.
http://2012books.lardbucket.org/books/a-primer-on-social-problems/s11-03-who-commits-crime.html
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@UM,
First of all, I am going to have to disagree diametrically with this assertion. What was said to L of M was “a re-write of history to address your white supremacy.” I interpret that as meaning that L of M is holding white supremacist attitudes and ideologies or at least thoughts, not that he is specifically a white supremacist per se. It might be a very fine and subtle difference, but a crucial one nevertheless.
I have yet to meet anyone who grew up in the USA who did not hold white supremacist attitudes to one degree or another. That also includes all the POC who follow this blog as well as the blogger himself. The distinction lies in whether one
– is aware of it
– internalizes the idea to mean that it is what they are, not simply what they do (from time to time, or all the time in the case of some people).
Recently I alleged that a friend of a friend of mine (a historian with a post-graduate degree in history) was depicting a piece of history from an Anglo-centric viewpoint and I found it hard to believe how he could simultaneously hold those views yet claim that he could teach history from a Native American perspective. When I pointed it out, he got very offended, believing that I had called him an Anglo-American (He is probably a white guy who is not purely of Anglo descent). It was almost as if I called him the r-word.
Getting back to the topic.
Yes I do. Because he has interpreted the wording as meaning what he is, instead of what he does. He responded not by addressing the allegation, but by name calling.
disagree, for reasons just explained above. In fact, L of M’s reaction (saying that someone is not cool), if anything, was closer to hurling an ad hominem than what the commenter did to him.
I really think only hypersensitive white people who read through a white lens and see themselves as colour-blind and not racist (while simultaneously offended by the r-word) would jump to assume that he is indeed a white supremacist based purely on reading that. I certainly would not.
If he disagreed with the commenter’s allegation that he is expressing white supremacist views, then he should address that specifically. Instead, he basically tried to shut off discussion by calling someone “not cool” full stop. What he could have done, if he disagrees, or merely does not understand why anyone would make such an allegation, is ask the other party to explain how his behaviour constituted white supremacist behaviour and then LISTEN. He might learn something.
Several commenters on this blog have reminded me when they feel that I did something that supported white supremacist ideology. I may not always agree with them, but I always appreciate the feedback. I would never say that someone is “not cool” for doing so.
L of M floods this blog with his opinions and dozens of commenters have pointed out the racist nature, even white supremacist nature of some of his viewpoints. Abagond reminded him that if he does that, readers have a right to call him out on it. It is not being mean or evil. Commenters like L of M have further motivated Abagond to write his piece on “Blacks: A White Liberal Guide”. I hope that he will also do a similar piece on Asians. One of the greatest white liberal myths is the topic of this very post. Another thing that white liberals do is rewrite history, or omitting the parts that do not fit their world view.
L of M likens that behaviour from the other commenters as calling him the r-word. It is unfortunate, as it shuts himself off. It is one reason why I don’t go to his blog.
UM, you have been participating actively on this blog for years and successfully argue most of your points in a serious rational dispassionate manner (even if not all agree with you or your logic). Maybe you can advise L of M how to do that better. Sometimes, even you lose your cool (like on the Isis papers thread). I hope that you will also appreciate if someone points that out to you.
Don’t take anything here too personally. 99.99% of the time, it isn’t. Ask for an explanation and listen. When and if it gets out of hand, people will begin to notice and moderation should step in.
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@L of M,
I am not going to make a list. People have already pointed it out to you, even Abagond. Anyhow, it will only be a matter of time before you drop another one.
You should address your confusion or disagreement with someone’s comments directly with them. I cannot answer for them.
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@lotr your comments on sally hemmings?
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L of M,
I really don’t want to make this personal, but you keep on trying to make it personal. My advice above was not to make any of it personal.
Plenty of people have been giving you great feedback, but you have largely chosen not to heed it.
Even above, you made a perpetual foreigner fallacy argument in an effort trying to defend yourself. That is a common behaviour that reflects white supremacist attitudes. However, I just rolled my eyes and stayed silent because, pointing it out to you would simply make you start reacting as if someone just used the r-word on you and you would feel offended (ie, make it about your feelings). Instead of expanding your viewpoint, you would instead expend effort to bolster or repair your fragile ego.
You are not angry about the subject of the post or about problems in the world or US society. You are angry because you feel as if you have been personally attacked.
I don’t know how you will engage people on your own blog if you choose to act that way. You are not engaging too many people here with that behaviour.
Instead of exhibiting anger over America’s racist past and ongoing ideology, you seem to feel an uncontrollable urge to step in and defend white people and make it about your feelings. Even when you remind everyone that the Irish were not originally “white”, your jumping in to defend white people for their racist actions (including Jefferson’s) shows that you have already chosen to identify with the white group, and in a very personal way as though your ego depended on it.
Again, the best way to handle it is not to make it personal or about your feelings.
Or maybe you could sign up for Lucas’s class at Washington State (https://abagond.wordpress.com/2015/07/30/mtv-white-people/).
Still waiting for Abagond’s White Liberal guides.
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LOM
Personally I was just going to keep my mouth shut, but if a person has some eurocentric/racist/white supremacy ideas then most POC are not going to see that as helping them. A person like that will only vote for change that would hurt us not help us.
If you have that type mindset then you need to deal with them before you can really be our ally. Otherwise people will see you as blowing smoke. I agree with Jefe. Abagond a white liberal guide is needed.
The things you were willing to throw uriel under the bus for seems to be the very things you do without realizing it.
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LOM
Uriel is trying to gain an understanding. Much of what he says lacks understanding from others is because he is not sure of anything to base himself on. He is lost. I don’t see him as a victim of white guilt. I see him as a young guy who is trying to understand the role he plays in white supremacy and if he can indeed remedy the problem.
You on the other hand realize there is a problem, but don’t realize or care that your solutions will make you feel better but not necessarily for black people. You pretty much don’t seem to care to even listen to what POC have to say.
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In shirt you feel you know better. No one can tell you anything and on that note I bow out.
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@Sharinair,
I wonder if there is another one available somewhere on the web.
Hence the racist uncle syndrome.
Sounds like a good plan for me too.
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@ Sharina @ jefe
I will try to get the White liberal guide to Black people up this week.
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i believe class explains a lot of it, but the inability of blacks to utilize any political resources to change their plight is the result of racism.
for example, whites do not live in concentrated poverty like blacks do. whites can move to higher income neighborhoods and go to better schools. no one complains. when blacks do this, it is heavily resisted.
blacks with higher SES iirc tend to live in lower income neighborhoods than equally situated whites; and i believe that part of it is explained by blacks wanting to be where they are appreciated rather than tolerated.
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@ swank
In my experience, it is mainly due to racial steering:
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@ swank
And White flight:
I move to a White neighbourhood and then over the years I get more and more Black neighbours. Or: I run into a White person who knows my neighbourhood surprisingly well even though it is Black – because he grew up there before White flight took over.
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it could be that, too. i actually was unaware of that practice. my only point was that the outcomes themselves seem to result from the bad environmental circumstances associated with class (oppressive history, social stigma, etc.— and i’m not saying that they aren’t much worse with black americans than say, poor white americans) but the raw part of the deal is the absence of political power to remedy the situation.
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German-Americans weren’t locked up like Japanese-Americans. Did a German-American named J. Edgar Hoover have something to do with that? Just a question.
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Eh, it’s really a question of intersectionality. It’s not class or race, it’s class AND race. They go hand in hand, and that’s why African-Americans are disproportionately poor, because it’s race and class. It’s why middle-class African-Americans don’t necessarily have access to the privileges of middle-class white: their middle-class socioeconomic status is limited by race, dragging them down to the lower classes. This isn’t always true, but class is always gendered and racialized. It’s why I always laugh when white people say affirmative action should only be ‘class-based’ because, on average, middle-class African-Americans would still be worse off than middle-class whites or some working-class whites. The two go hand in hand, in ways that black nationalists might ignore or white leftists neglect.
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^^^^From what I browsed over it does not.
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Very well said talibmensah! Lordy, I usually find you ridiculous, but this article you linked to is solid, note how “miss. Afrocentrism” i.e. sharinlr didn’t have the stomach to deal with it. This is the kind of dishonesty that I find off putting about their ideology. What strange world we live in where I find myself in agreement with you for once!
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@gro jo
“note how “miss. Afrocentrism” i.e. sharinlr didn’t have the stomach to deal with it.”–Or it could be that I was doing other things and browsed over it like I said.
You sound butthurt as ever. 🙂
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How about dealing with the substance of the article? How did you know that my coccyx was troubling me? You must be psychic. 🙂
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“How about dealing with the substance of the article?”—-When the substance of the article become more important than me studying for my GRE exam.
“You must be psychic.”—No psychic. You just regularly act like a child when someone is not kissing your behind. 😉
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@Lord of Mirkwood
Please use a level of common sense. If it took you more than 5 minutes to read and I made it clear I have other things going on that would not allow me time to read it, does that sound like I am dismissing it?
Coupled with the fact that I have a history of reading people articles before I point out why I am dismissing it.
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I read about half of the articale and will finish the rest tomorrow.
It’s a scholarly articale that denies that racsim plays any part in society anywhere on the planet. lol I’ll spend sometime deconstructing it and will offer a rebuttal.
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I’m flattered to read that I appeal to your maternal instinct. 😉 Ok, “mommy” I’ll leave you to your study for the GRE. I hope when you are done you’ll come back and deal with the substance of the article, being an aspiring upper management type, not that there’s anything wrong with that, it should be right up your alley, so to speak. I won’t mention how “Eurocentric” such tests are, darn, I did just that! Anyway, good luck with the test and your future career as a tool for the “racist, capitalist and sexist system” that pays its minions so well, not that there’s anything wrong with that. 🙂
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@gro jo
“I’m flattered to read that I appeal to your maternal instinct.”—According to what? Your inflated sense of self worth or importance.
You have a lot of growing up to do. It is almost a shame that you want people to take you seriously, yet you can not handle debates or even conversation on anything past a level of a 4 year old. It would be funny if it was not sad. At any rate. Good luck pretending mean something. 🙂
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@michaeljonbarker
From what I read, it did not appear the article denies racism, but rather seeks to place the blame on capitalism while ignoring the role that average white Americans play in it. I will finish reading it later and provide more detail tomorrow as well.
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“Mommy”, stop wasting time and get back to your GRE exam study. The big white boss won’t give you that coveted corporate job if you don’t show him you’ve mastered his “Eurocentric” nonsense, you know. Power must be humored. 🙂
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sharinalr, I hope you aren’t insulted by my comments, I’m just having a bit of fun with you.
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@gro jo
Being insulted by you would mean I think you are worth something. It is obvious I don’t.
On the flip side you seem to be in your feelings. 🙂
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Need a tampon?
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What the article does is to attempt to blame the “theory of white privilage” on the actual racist actions of white people. It saying that if leftist had never came up with the “theory” then workers would have united against the “1%”. Instead the “theory” caused them to think like racists therefor benifiting the Captilatist 1%. So while it’s true that Capitalsim benifits from divide and conquer and Captalism has sucked the wealth from third world countiries as well as oppressed some workers here that is a different issue from the racism of whites that’s hard wired into society. Racism isn’t a politicale theory. The intersection of race and class together hold back gains from non whites within white supremecy. But you can’t deny that white supremecy exists and focus soley on class. Upward mobile Blacks will tell you that the racist assumptions of white people don’t end when they acquired wealth.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
“I do agree with Gro Jo, Sharina, that you are generally blind to how capitalism has poisoned America.”—I typically don’t care what you do or do not agree with because you regularly make assumptions based on the idea that I am not praising your idea of placing blame for racism on capitalism.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
Here is a small summary of my thoughts on what I have read so far.
It becomes clear, as one reads this article, that white privilege theorists are tools of the oligarchy.”—Based on the article, that is not what it proves or show. In fact it does not even refute the idea of white privilege. It simply redirects the blame and claims that white privilege does not exist.
For example under the section of “Class Responsibility for Racism.” It brings up three grounds in which the author believes the “privilege theory” rests on, but it never addresses how these grounds are incorrect or show the non-existence of white privilege.
Then let us look at the section titled “Institutional Racism; Strategy”. The quote:
“In holding white workers co-responsible for systemic racism, the privilege model attributed a power to white workers they manifestly do not have: control over the institutions of American capitalism–schools, jobs, housing, factories, banks, police, courts, prisons, legislatures, media, elections, universities, armed services, hospitals, sports, political parties–all of which function in a racist manner. These institutions are owned and controlled by the capitalist class. They engineer, manage and enforce the social, economic and political racism that serves the social relations of American capitalism. It is these institutions that make racism such a powerful and inescapable part of American daily life.”
Now I agree that the average white person exercises power they do not have and blindly believe they do, but it does not in the slightest change the actions they take in excising their privilege. Sure all that is owned by capitalist, but the reason the capitalist have gotten this far is because of the average white person feeling their skin gives them a sense of entitlement.
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Mirkwood.
Racism can exist within any economic system. Capitalism didn’t invent racism but it certainly exploited it.
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“My goodness, how the times have changed! I do agree with Gro Jo, Sharina, that you are generally blind to how capitalism has poisoned America.”
Lordy, what’s wrong with an intelligent young black woman fighting for her share of the capitalist loot? Why shouldn’t she use racism to throw the working class in the dustbin of history as so many whites with her profile have done? My objection to her type is all the pretense that she stands for anything other than the mantra: It’s my turn. You come here masquerading as a great class warrior but you can’t even say what the difference is between your boy Bernie’s program and the program Debs ran on in 1912? What has changed in the intervening 103 years? Has “socialism” gone corporate? Why hasn’t “Bernie” designated any industries to be nationalized. Hell, even Obama thought of nationalizing some industries in 2008!
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@gro jo
You know if you assume enough about me and my thoughts, you may actually be able to write a book. It can be called:
Gro Jo’s Hurt feelings Volume I. Or The day Gro Jo became as catty as a Female. Or I am mad because someone politely told me I choose European Scholars over Black ones.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
“I don’t have any institutional power. Nor does my wife, nor do any of my neighbors. “—Quote where I said you did?
“Your attempt to blame ordinary people for the crimes of the elite is ghastly, and quite frankly, it is racist. “—No, quite the contrary. I am not blaming ordinary people for what the elite do. I am blaming ordinary people for what they do. White people play their role proudly.
“That has got to end!”—Sure it does, but so does racism. Capitalist created the divide true enough, but a divide can not happen if white people were not playing into it. Exercising racism and their privilege against POC.
“White privilege is bullsh*t. The only privileges in this country are economic.”—the explain how the middle class black people are still subject to racism?
It does not matter that their are more poor whites. It is no secret they regularly go against their own interest, but the reason they do is because they falsely believe that their white skin gives them a leg up or privilege.
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“Gro Jo’s Hurt feelings Volume I. Or The day Gro Jo became as catty as a Female. Or I am mad because someone politely told me I choose European Scholars over Black ones.”
My Dear, Please tell me who the “Afrocentrists” are who contributed to the GRE Exam you are so keen on mastering? Aren’t you proving the point I made when I was waylaid by the “Afrocentrist” mob? “I grew up speaking European languages, believing in a European god, studying European history, I suspect you did the same, to that extent, we are both Eurocentric. If, as I suspect, You mean that I’m an apologist for white supremacy, you need to prove it. Start by listing stuff I wrote that you consider Eurocentric and explain why it is so.” on Wed 28 Oct 2015 at 02:41:42
gro jo
You my dear, will be a black scholar after you satisfy the requirements set by whites, hence your eagerness to master the GRE exam, or am I wrong? Catty as a female? Why would a bright young thing like you write such dreadfully sexist stuff?
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“I should add to my earlier rant: capitalists were also responsible for the Confederate secession. The Civil War was a war between the democratic North, which backed free labor, and the oligarchic South, which was reactionary and backed slavery.”
WRONG, the capitalists were the staunchest advocates for the destruction of the South. Does the name John D. Rockefeller ring a bell in that vast, empty cave you call a head? How did you manage to misread the article so badly?
The South was backed by European powers wishing to weaken the USA. The British working class showed exemplary solidarity with the Union cause, thereby preventing Britain from intervening in the Civil War on the side of the South.
Your anti-capitalist rants are ahistorical and no doubt meant, unintentionally, as jokes. You are the kind of guy who would find “capitalists” during the stone age. I suspect you have a specific ethnic group in mind when you start your rants about “capitalists”.
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I do think racism is very much alive and that yeah, many times it’s not about class at all, it IS about race.
That being said, I do think US has a class issue, too. It may not be as bad as in some other places, like the UK, but it exists. Racism and classism are not mutually exclusive and both can thrive in the same place.
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Mirkwood says:
“I don’t have any institutional power. Nor does my wife, nor do any of my neighbors. Nobody where I live has any institutional power except for the mayor, the civil servants, and the bankers. You really think that the dirt-poor people of southwestern Virginia have any institutional power? ”
Your Catholic right? The Catholic church is an institutional power and when you take communion that makes you part of the Catholic church, part of the body of Christ.
Institutions are structured hierarchies and within them people compete to rise to the top. That doesn’t mean their capitalistic though they can be. Rather it shows that competition is a part of human nature.
On the definition of institutional power:
“Institutional power exists in situations where authority has been socially approved and accepted as legitimate. In other words, they get their power from the fact that society as a whole agrees that they have a right to their authority over others.”
What that means is that “the dirt-poor people of southwestern Virginia” believe that they have a right to their racism over others because white supremacy gives them that authority. That gives them privilege within an institution in spite of their class and being dirt poor.
Institutions that are racist are so because they reflect societies approval of racism. Todays society believes we live in a post racial world. We have people like yourself who deny their own racism but in doing so it is at the expense of those which racism directly effects.
Class reductionism is a convenient way to deflect away from personal racism and still claim that you are “for” the oppressed.
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*post racist world
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@ Gro Jo
You’ve indicated that you support the articale. Please provide a solid argument in its defense. You as a Marxist should be able to do a better job then Mirkwoods liberal dribble. So far you haven’t provided anything useful just gone off on an a transit.
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@gro jo
OMG. Mr.”I’m so above everybody” is engaging in a straw man argument.ROFL!!!
“My Dear, Please tell me who the “Afrocentrists” are who contributed to the GRE Exam you are so keen on mastering?”—I never said there was any.
” Aren’t you proving the point I made when I was waylaid by the “Afrocentrist” mob?”—Nope. Unless throwing a fit when called out is part of your point about yourself.
“If, as I suspect, You mean that I’m an apologist for white supremacy, you need to prove it.”—I never said you were so why would I need to prove it. I stated clear as day that you favor white scholars over black ones. You proved that over several threads so it is not like it is shock and awe.
“You my dear, will be a black scholar after you satisfy the requirements set by whites, hence your eagerness to master the GRE exam, or am I wrong?”—No, the purpose of the GRE is for enrollment in a master’s program. I can avoid it by choosing a different school.
“Catty as a female? Why would a bright young thing like you write such dreadfully sexist stuff?”—Because I am not a girl. but a woman.
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Lord of Mirkwood
Considering Powell and Winfrey have been subjected to racism, I do believe that white skinned trailer park dude does have privilege. His lack of accomplishment does not make his privilege less so.
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“Considering Powell and Winfrey have been subjected to racism, I do believe that white skinned trailer park dude does have privilege. His lack of accomplishment does not make his privilege less so.”
My dear young lady, this is pretty dreadful stuff. The white skinned trailer park dude has the democratic right to speak his mind and make an ass of himself by calling his betters nasty names. Powerful Jews have dealt with variants of the species for centuries. On the other hand, Winfrey can hold him up to ridicule by featuring him on her network and Powell sent a number of his type to their deaths when he was a general and secretary of state. I hope you and my dear friend Kiwi see the difference between power and bs from this example.
Lordy, your reply is incoherent, You seem to want to argue that because Karl Marx supported the Union that made the Union cause anti-capitalist? Nonsense. On that issue, he was in the same camp as Rockefeller and Lincoln. That war was one of the most important struggles for freedom. The US capitalist class ruthlessly liquidated the Southern squirearchy as it did the Indians or anybody else standing in their way. The “progressive” side was that Blacks got their freedom, but not the forty acres and mule some abolitionists advocated.
Corporations, the creatures of the capitalist class, became “persons” with more rights than the Blacks! Aah, the wonders of the “law”!
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@lotr pretty sure malcolm x spoke on this topic, you should be able to find it in his autobiography unless i’m mistaken
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My policy statement on this one is that it is race and class both.
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Some people seem to dwell on dichotomous thinking.
What’s wrong with revising the
“It’s not race, it’s class” sentence to
“It’s not just race, it’s also class”?
Is it not possible to have to deal with both race and class?
The demarcation between race and class is not the same in all geographic locations, but both seem to be operating at some level just about everywhere.
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@jefe not the first time i’ve said that here!
@lotr thanks for the info regarding marx’s writing on the civil war; i imagine he likened southern slavery to serfdom, i guess the bourgeoisie was the lesser of two evils, plus a vector for whatever was the predecessor to comintern!
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
1. Do Black Americans still experience racism?
2. If so, at what income level does it disappear?
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Mirkwood.
Naive American religions are not white centric. The Chatholic church is white centric.
White trailer park dude will get shorter criminal sentences in the justice system soley because they are white.
White trailer park dude can make stuff up about their Black neighbors, call the police, and unless it’s proven otherwise, the police will take their word over what really happened soley because they are white.
If poor white people get pulled over by the police it’s not because they were profiled because of their race.
When these white kids are in school they learn history through a white perspective. The same is true on television, in the media, how movies are made, which actors play certain parts. It all revolves around a white society that judges people first on race regardless of class.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
” Show me how Powell and Winfrey have been severely set back in life due to any of that.”—That is not the requirement of white privilege. If you are trying to show something otherwise then it is for you to show and not me.
Humble beginning or not, Oprah was subject to racism and So was Powell. Green did not stop them from being racially profiled. That oh so sad poor working class Appalachian dude probably never experienced it and could likely get rich and never experience it at all.
“Meanwhile, the poor and working people, like Appalachian Trailer Park Dude, are left out in the cold – by people such as Powell and Winfrey.”—There is a better chance that he is being left out in the cold by the white capitalist that look like him.
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@Kiwi
I was going to reply, but you greatly summed it up.
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““Meanwhile, the poor and working people, like Appalachian Trailer Park Dude, are left out in the cold – by people such as Powell and Winfrey.”—There is a better chance that he is being left out in the cold by the white capitalist that look like him.” Excellent, That GRE logic thing is already paying dividends. Now tell me how many Powells has the “dude” sent to the antechamber of hell as opposed to Powell sending his kind there?
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@Lord of Mirkwood
Interesting article. I must admit I had to force myself to re-read it because, the 1st time through, I wasn’t very open-minded and started filtering it through that part of my brain used for Area 51 and Zombie Apocalypse conspiracy theories.
In all honesty, it does a good job of pointing out the impact racism has on dividing the populace and how that benefits those in economic power. That’s really true of any means of keeping We The People distracted and fighting each other though (or distracted with our unification for that matter.) The points that the article (and you) repeatedly make about unifying for the greater good rather than continuing to work tirelessly for the benefit of a very few are valid points.
However, when it comes to making the leap that White Privilege, and the underlying racism that drives it, are a carefully orchestrated hoax invented by the elite to trick all of us into creating and then trying to fix a non-existent issue… Well, that’s just not how I see things.
Benefiting from a set of circumstances, even to the extent that you encourage them, does not make you the inventor and controller of those circumstances. The theory that “cutting off the head of the snake” by destroying the “1%” will somehow end racism is something I don’t think is valid. It is clear to me that the issues of race and class overlap and even influence each other. But, solving one does not automatically solve the other.
The article repeatedly makes assertions based in a fundamental assumption that all White people take an exclusively active role and seek to benefit from our White Privilege. That assertion is probably the #1 sticking point holding people back from appreciating what White Privilege is. Your comments about poor Whites and Oprah Winfrey illustrate this. They are founded in the assumption that “privilege” manifests in monetary reward. Sometimes it does. More often, it manifests in the phrase “benefit of the doubt”. As a White man, I passively benefit from this every time I walk into any place occupied by other White people. Store clerks don’t know me, restaurant staff don’t know me, the cop that pulls me over for speeding doesn’t know me. I don’t have to look at the cop and say, dude, here’s my White Privilege card, so, you don’t need to search my car or anything. Same for the 7-11 clerk not needing to keep an eye on me while I walk up and down the aisles. It’s just there. I’m given the benefit of the doubt. Heck, a local White guy just pulled a toy gun at a bank, made the teller literally break down into tears out of fear for her life and unlike a Tamir Rice, he lived to regret his mistake. He had more than a couple of seconds to explain himself. Benefit of the doubt is just one example. There are countless other examples of the benefits of White Privilege that have nothing to do with capitalism.
You seem genuinely concerned about issues of class. You seem convinced that solving those issues will solve issues of race. Ok, so keep running with that ball. What if you’re wrong? If you’re wrong, will you regret the tremendous amount of effort you’ve expended trying to silence discussions about race? Because, from what I’ve seen, that’s what you consistently do. You try to turn the race discussions of others into platforms for advancing your own agendas. Why? Is there harm in allowing people to discuss issues of race? Sure, you think you’ve found the solution and you’re terribly frustrated that the rest of us have not had the same epiphany. You so strongly wish we could just open our minds enough to see your point of view so you can lead us to salvation. You have a blog, I know where to find your opinion on the socialist solutions. Please, please, please try to understand how your efforts to change the conversation here are having the very real effect of interrupting and suppressing necessary conversations about race.
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Lordy, why didn’t just say I’m right and left it at that? The first billionaire was a strong Union man. Lincoln was a mouthpiece for the railroad interests. A thoroughly capitalist crew in my opinion. What’s your take on Lincoln trying to get rid of Blacks by shipping them out to places like Haiti?
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Mirkwood
Native American religions exist but they are not institutions with power. Part of the genocide and conquest was about destroying Native American identity and replacing it with Christianity. Christianity is largely an anthroprocentric reflection of white people which makes it white centric. Thats why Jesus is white.
Read Carl Sagon’s “A Pale Blue Dot”. He makes the anthroprocentric argument their about religions. It’s my opinion that the concept of racie came from this anthroprocentric reflection found within religion. The “chosen people” of the Bible became identified as the white race in the same way Jews were originally God’s chosen people within Isreal. This gave them manifest destiny to go out and conquer the world because that was God’s will.
“White privilage theory” isn’t a thing that leftists can do away with if it no longer serves their purposes. An economic revolution won’t make racsim within society disappear because it is completly seperate from class.
White privilage reflect the symptoms of racism within society. White privilage is the result of the anthroprocentric reflection of white people within society. White privilage isn’t the result of a specific economic system nor caused by class difference. Racism is the result of white people becoming the standard by which all things are judged. It is this anthroprocentric reflection of the ruling tribe within society that underlines what white supremecy is.
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@gro jo
If it is beginning to seem as if I am ignoring you, well I am. 🙂
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@LOM
“There’s a reason Mormons and Protestants hate Latin American immigrants – it’s because they’re poor, and it’s because they’re Catholic.”—Wrong. You do realize that Mormonism in Latin America is pretty high right?
http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/lifestyle/2011/11/13/growth-mormonism-in-latin-america/
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@ JMB
“White trailer park dude can make stuff up about their Black neighbors, call the police, and unless it’s proven otherwise, the police will take their word over what really happened soley because they are white.”
.
Yep! Just ask the arrested and humiliated Black professor Skip Gates as he was trying to get inside of his own home. Had he suffered the misfortune of residing in Ohio chances are he’d be another dead, unarmed Black man who the “rollers” would’ve undoubtedly imagined he possessed a “real” gun.
White people’s testimonies usually always trumps anything Black people testify to (unless of course the Black testimony favors the white narrative).
It’s THE unwritten Law … except in that perfect and fair meritocratic John Wayne-ish rose colored bubble that some narrow delusional eyes peer at Black life though… the kind of vision that sees all racism ended with Jim Crow.
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” on Mon 16 Nov 2015 at 18:03:37
sharinalr
@gro jo
If it is beginning to seem as if I am ignoring you, well I am. :)”
I like you too. You’re so cute when you lie.
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@ Fan
You used an older, deleted version of MJB’s quote. I changed it to the current one.
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@Gro Jo
“I like you too. You’re so cute when you lie.”–I would say you are cute when you are pathetic, but I am waiting on you to explain how you were ignored for not one, but two comments, While still desperately trying to get my attention.
I wonder if you head would spin if I completely talk around you from this point on? Let us see then.
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I’m still waiting for Gro Jo to answer the question. Instead he wants to hurl insults ecerywhere.
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“I wonder if you head would spin if I completely talk around you from this point on? Let us see then.” I would be devastated. 😉
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@michaeljonbarker
I don’t remember him being so bitter, but it is interesting to see.
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@Lord of Mirkwood
Go ahead, LOM, let your delusional mind think I care.
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I AM A CLASS REDUCTIONIST AND PROUD OF IT.
That’s nice dear.
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