Note: I was asked my honest opinion about this, so that is what follows. I do not have studies or anything to prove it.
Are white American women less racist than white men?
No.
Even though they have less reason to be racist and less power to practise it, there is nothing that clearly shows them to be less racist than white men when given the opportunity.
For example, most employers are white men, so most racist hiring is done by them. But, at least in my experience, when white women have the power to hire they can be just a racist against blacks.
Or: the fact that most real estate agents seem to be white women has not kept me from getting steered away from white neighbourhoods that I could afford.
Or: to go back in time to far worse examples, white women have had black men lynched for rape to cover up what was just an affair in order to save their name.
You would think white women would be less racist: they have less power in society and know what it is like to experience sexism. Sexism is not the same as racism, of course, but as a form of marginalization it does have some things in common with it. So you would think, all things being equal, they would understand racism better than white men.
You would think, but I see no clear sign of it. Whereas some Jews, for example, do seem to understand racism better than most other whites, the same does not seem to be true of white women. When you talk to them they have all the same racist defences. They seem just as blind, just as heartless – as we saw in the post on white women’s tears.
They might seem nicer – because they have less power, because they seem to hide their feelings more and are less direct than white men – but if they were in fact less racist there would be a greater understanding among them about racism. As far as I can see, there is not.
Most people seem to have an easier time of understanding the forms of marginalization that hurt them, but a harder time understanding those that benefit them. So black men, for example, readily understand racism but have a hard time seeing and understanding their own sexism. As has been said of me.
Well, with white women it is the same thing. They are white and so have all the same reasons as white men to be blind to their own racism. Their lives are built on the very same moral blindness and so they have just as little reason to question it. They have to live with the same white people. They have grown up thinking themselves as being just as white. And so on. When it comes to race, they have all the sames walls to overcome as white men.
See also:
“Most people seem to have an easier time of understanding the forms of marginalization that hurt them, but a harder time understanding those that benefit them.”
It’s all too true. I used to assume that suffering oppression oneself would automatically give one a level of empathy for other oppressed people. But it rarely seems to work that way.
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Personally, I am not sure whether you can split the categories in this way and get a meaningful response.
If we look at things historically, during the rise of Western expansion acrss the world. We see that the poor White working class back in the Western nations had nothing to gain because they were oppressed on the basis of ‘class’.
Nonetheless, when it came to the issue of ‘race’, these poor Whites who were oppressed, no matter whatever their status they would be, would be better than even the wealthiest of Black person and/or POC – and this would also be the case for White women because how the world was constructed – off course there was intersection and exceptions
I am not quite sure why, but I have the feeling the issue that whether White women are not as racist as White men is to do with the issue of dating/inter-race relationship.
I believe this is essentially the back-drop to the conversation and what the dialogue is about in a perverse way.
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With regard to:
“Most people seem to have an easier time of understanding the forms of marginalization that hurt them, but a harder time understanding those that benefit them. So black men, for example, readily understand racism but have a hard time seeing and understanding their own sexism”
There is also another perspective to this
On a deeper level most do not really know or understand how the marginalisation affect them, nor do they believe they in fact possess self-hate.
As for sexism, what you say here is true.
Personally, I think the problem is that because the human being becomes a ‘human’ in a ‘society and culture’. It then becomes ‘impossible’ to think outside of that.
This would also explain why it is so hard to observe and sees one’s own self-hate with regard to race. Just as it is so hard to see our own personal individual faults as humans.
Furthermore even if you ability to think ‘outside the box’, it is still not sufficient. Since you have to do lots of research and studies, and have the ability to look at things on a global peispective.
This is why I have said on this blog that the amount of White people who can seriously fight to bring down a system will be a handful. And this is why when you examine history between 1500-1900s. You can find very few Whites who did not endorse racism, even the most enlightened of scholars like Marx, Darwin and the list goes on.
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J:
Good point: white women marry black more than white men do. But I think that is because black men prize white women way more than white men prize black women. If it were due to white women being less racist then that should appear in other ways as well.
Some say that the rate of interracial dating and marriage is driven by female racism, not male racism. Maybe so, but that does not give you a way to compare men to women, only women of different races.
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J:
I did not say that understanding marginalization was easy. That is why I was careful to say it was easIER to understand the sort that hurts you than the sort than helps you. It was a comparison only between kinds.
Yes, understanding your own marginalization can take years and some never get there, like Sammy Sosa. Thus the self-hatred and so on.
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Cheers Abagond,
Just to say I did understand the context off your point – I just wanted to add a different perspective, also following on what ES had contributed.
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Despite my earlier comment, I wouldn’t be surprised if white women were a little less racist.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but many studies of voter patterns that I’ve seen indicate that women tend to lean a bit more Left than men. In other words, they are slightly more likely to take a compassionate stance on issues.
To me that relates to the social construction of compassion being “soft” and therefore unmasculine.
Perhaps the more nurturing and caring inclinations women have in comparison to men mean that they are more likely to have empathy/sympathy for others.
It’s just a thought.
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With regard to:
“Perhaps the more nurturing and caring inclinations women have in comparison to men mean that they are more likely to have empathy/sympathy for others”.
Leaving aside whether it is a stereotype or not, do you think such ‘traits’ can be applied to ‘out-groups’, all things being equal off course??
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Abagond,
With regard to the issuethat there is more White women in inter-racial dating relationship.
One of the aspect of sexism is that we cannot see that the White women is also an an ‘active’ participant as opposed to ‘passive’.
I would be interested to hear what you believe are some of the reasons, why more White woman are involved in IRR, especially as one of the criteria, well at least in the past here, for defining an individual as NOT being racist is whether they ‘would you date outside your race etc??’
Cheers!!
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J, of course, thinks white women are less racist. Surprising? Not really.
But once again, white women are not less racist. I will add an aspect to that — they are more racist when it comes to black women. Just as, I believe and have been shown many times, white men are more racist when it comes to black men (not saying that they aren’t racist when it comes to black women).
ES,
“Correct me if I’m wrong, but many studies of voter patterns that I’ve seen indicate that women tend to lean a bit more Left than men. In other words, they are slightly more likely to take a compassionate stance on issues.”
Being “liberal” or “left” has not a thing to do with how racist a person is. I’ve seen some of the most conservative white people be the least racist, even and especially in the South (U.S.). In contrast, my SO is and always will be a diehard liberal, but he certainly had racist leanings when we first met (though he would deny this because, well, “liberals can’t be racist!”}
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Hmmmm. I think this is really interesting.
In my experience, personal oppression almost never results in higher compassion and often makes the (oppressed) person in question feel more entitled to oppress in return. They feel they have *earned* it or have bought thoroughly enough into the victim mentality that it is almost impossible for them to see themselves as the oppressor. My grandmother, for example, is a Jewish Holocaust survivor who spent a year in concentration camps and shamelessly, unreservedly views non whites (and to a lesser extent, all non Jews, particularly Muslims) as subhuman–the exact same classification she was imprisoned for. Sick.
Not to mention–while sexism can be oppressive for white women, it’s often a comfortable, financially secure oppression–personally stifling but still secure.
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Natasha W.
With due respect, in another thread you accused me of placing words in your mouth. Once again it reminds me of your use of the word ‘hypocrite’ .
Be that as it may
Can I kindly direct you to the other question, which you say you are NOT avoiding on the other thread, and that you would kindly answers.
Cheers!!
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J, I’m answering it after this second comment. Just chill. 🙂
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White women have the same racist tendencies as white men. However, it does seem they are often more racist simply because they see themselves as an oppressed group and therefore believe they can’t be the oppressors. (More about it later). Also, white men, if nothing else, hear over and over and over again they are the group with the most power, and they often hear they are the most racist group.
I’m not saying it helps them unlearn their racism, but I never really heard about the problem of white woman racism being discussed- white men are always the first to be discussed here. While they do, on average, have the most power, and while I don’t want to minimize sexism, I think this is what prevents white women to ever even think about the possibility of being racist. It’s just never really applied to their category; it’s always about racist men, etc. This, and the fact they see themselves as the oppressed group makes them potentially more racist.
Also, there’s another thing: behaviour. They are raised to be nice and polite, to smile, “get along with everyone” and have good manners. Like I always like to say, being polite is nice, but it’s just a shell: it says nothing about you as a person. You can be rude and don’t have good manners and to be a better person then to smile all the time and say cute things, but under that, your thoughts and your heart are fully of ugly things, prejudice, superiority complex and racism. There are many, many white women who are like this. That’s why their racism is easier to hide, because many people fall for the smile and polite small talk.
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abagond,
Most people seem to have an easier time of understanding the forms of marginalization that hurt them, but a harder time understanding those that benefit them. So black men, for example, readily understand racism but have a hard time seeing and understanding their own sexism. As has been said of me.”
Amen.
And one can see what position this puts black women in. It is hard to completely side with feminism or anti-racism. Neither fully encompasses or champions the particular issues black women face. When it comes to feminism and anti-racism, respectively, “All the women are white, and all the blacks are men.”
“Good point: white women marry black more than white men do. But I think that is because black men prize white women…”
This is correct.
To this day, black women are still more loyal to black men than vice versa. A few have ventured out, but their numbers aren’t high. Whereas black men seem to jump at the chance to be with a non-black, black women are much more hesitant to do the same.
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@ Natasha:
“Being “liberal” or “left” has not a thing to do with how racist a person is.”
Obviously absolutist ideas like “liberals can’t be racist”, are nonsense. But while there are plenty of racists and non-racists in both conservative and liberal camps, I tend to notice a little more racism on the conservative side. Conservatives tend to oppose initiatives that would share power or resources with the less well-off and minorities.
According to one study I read, women are also more likely than men to give to charity, and also specifically give to those who are further removed from them.
(http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081218132142.htm)
Which of course doesn’t mean women are less racist. But compassion for others is certainly part of the equation here.
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@Eurasian Sensation
It’s all too true. I used to assume that suffering oppression oneself would automatically give one a level of empathy for other oppressed people. But it rarely seems to work that way.
This. 1000x, this.
While different forms of oppression (racism, sexism, etc) are not the same, they do bear enough similarities that one would think it’s easier for someone oppressed to understand another oppressed person- even if they are not oppressed because of the same thing. Sadly, it doesn’t work that way- not in majority of the cases if I may to say.
First reason might be because oppressed people in question also belong to the group of oppressors. For example, white women are affected by sexism, but their group (white) is the major oppressor when it comes to racism. Black men are affected by racism, but their group (males) is the major oppressor when it comes to sexism.
Second reason might be fighting for power. Being oppressed is not nice, so people try to be at least a bit less oppressed, even if that means they have to play by the oppressor’s rules. That’s why many minorities fight for the white attention and discriminate against other minorities (Latinos against blacks, for example), instead of uniting against the common enemy.
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absolutely well said, couldn’t agree more abagond
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With regard to:
“And one can see what position this puts black women in. It is hard to completely side with feminism or anti-racism. Neither fully encompasses or champions the particular issues black women face. When it comes to feminism and anti-racism, respectively, “All the women are white, and all the blacks are men.”
…How the world is constructed means that Black women will have to take a ‘stand’, its impossible to sit on the fence.
And if Black women do take a stand with regard to race they may well lose out in some respect in the future.
Why do I say this??
The continent of Africa is the perfect example where those who fought against ‘White colonisers’ have now become ‘Black colonisers’ of the masses.
These are the dialectics of politics and revolution.
Interesting comment by the way M.
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Regarding intermarriage being a marker of less racism…
While that makes sense on one level, we all know that someone can have a partner (or friends) of a certain race yet still have all kinds of racist ideas about that person’s group. Remember the commenter here, “Great White Man”, who would degrade black people as a whole then intermittently talk of how much he liked black women.
Likewise, marriage or partnering with someone is not just about acceptance but also attraction. So if I am not really physically attracted to a certain race (and therefore less likely to date them), that doesn’t mean I will treat them any less as human beings.
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Also,
@Abagond
. So black men, for example, readily understand racism but have a hard time seeing and understanding their own sexism. As has been said of me.
Abagond,
Understanding your own privilege is not an easy thing. You see that every day, you see whites who don’t understand their own privilege and think just because they are not rich and powerful they don’t have it.
Why would you believe other groups of people are different? It’s always difficult to see your own prejudice. For example, you as a black American man, perhaps can’t see your own male privilege, or heterosexual privilege, or- VERY IMPORTANT, but rarely discussed!- your AMERICAN PRIVILEGE.
Everybody has a lot to learn. True, some of your posts do show signs of your privilege but at least you understand how privilege works and are not defending yourself with pathetic excuses some other people use.
@Natasha W
When it comes to feminism and anti-racism, respectively, “All the women are white, and all the blacks are men.”
I agree. This is a bad thing. If you are anti-racist you must support all the people, not just black men. If you are a feminist, you must fight for all women- not just your own group (like, sadly, so many women do).
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White women see themselves as less racist. They tend to equate sexism with the struggle against racism and fail to see that they nave benefited from the undeserved privileged of white men and being on the pedestal of ideal womanhood. I get sick of white women commenting on how their relationships with black men are simply based on love and ignore that they have been set up as the ultimate prize for centuries. I have a white classmate who insist that her inability to find male companionship is the same as mine, I have been polite, but some days I have to resist the urge to slap her for her ignorance and narcissism.
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ES,
“Obviously absolutist ideas like “liberals can’t be racist”, are nonsense. But while there are plenty of racists and non-racists in both conservative and liberal camps, I tend to notice a little more racism on the conservative side. Conservatives tend to oppose initiatives that would share power or resources with the less well-off and minorities.”
Their racism takes a different form from that of conservatives. Type in “racist liberals” (12,400,000 results) for a few examples.
“Which of course doesn’t mean women are less racist. But compassion for others is certainly part of the equation here.”
I lurk feminist blogs and it seems that, when it comes to racism, it is approached in one of two ways. (1) to bolster feminist agendas (“They wouldn’t dare say/do this to blacks!”) or (2) [when someone brings up racism] the issue is dimissed in the manner of “Well of course racism is bad. But it’s pretty much a non-issue these days. Sexism is still alive and well.” There are a few that aren’t like this, but they are fewer in comparison. So, when you say they are compassionate, I would ask, “To whom?”
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ES, that would be “Type in on Google.”
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I don’t know what to say about sexism vs racism. Sexism is still going strong around the world. But in America? Europe? I don’t want to disrespect anyone’s bad experience, but I always thought sexism is more of a non-issue* these days.
*I’m not saying it’s not an issue, but I always thought racism is still going strong, while sexism… It’s still there but if we have to compare the two… Oh, I don’t know what to say.
All I know I was never treated as inferior because of my gender. Maybe I don’t see it. But I never thought I got any less than an equal treatment because of my gender. Still, my country might be a bit specific, because as “traditional” as it tries to appear, some forms of gender equality were implemented a long time ago (spouses and mothers working, same salary for both men and women, etc).
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White feminists feel that they speak for everyone. Including the history, challenges and views of women of color is an afterthought or simply ignored.
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The problem of white feminists (females) is that they often don’t see women of other races as “one of their own”.
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With regard to:
“To this day, black women are still more LOYAL to black men than vice versa. A few have ventured out, but their numbers aren’t high. Whereas black men seem to jump at the chance to be with a non-black, black women are much more hesitant to do the same.”
Personally, I cannot see it as an act of ‘loyalty’.
There are organisations that advocate ‘race first principles’, and forbid intermarriages. These individuals are being specifically ‘loyal’ to race.
When many – not all – date outside the race, then more often than not it is to do with self-hate. Since all things being equal, and in a non-racist society they would in all probability date within their race (ie the ‘natural choice’)
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Mira,
Sexism and racism are both issues. I wouldn’t say either is worse than the other (in the U.S.).
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Sexism and racism are both issues. I wouldn’t say either is worse than the other (in the U.S.).
Really? For some reason I always thought racism was worse. I am sorry for my ignorant comment. I had no idea.
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I also think few people of any race, but particularly whites, like to think of anyone being more oppressed than they are. White feminists and gays seem to be almost embarrassed and flustered when confronted by women or gays of color–concrete evidence diminishing their perceived personal oppression, or at least reminding them there are others who suffer more.
It’s far easier to look in the face of a straight male of color and say “yes, you don’t have white privilege but I’m a woman, so we’re on some form of equal footing and I don’t have to feel guilty”.
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Those things can lead to the oppression olympics, which is never a good way of discussing things.
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J–
I’m not sure I agree that it in a non-racist society, more people would date within their own race. Assuming there was truly no racism, wouldn’t people not see it as a significant category and not consider it when dating? I don’t know too many blue eyed people who consciously only date other blue eyed people, for example–it’s a visible phenotype, but not viewed in our society as a significant marker.
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Mira, racism is terrible. But if I were to say that it is definitely worse than sexism I would be ignoring the many ways that sexism is perpetuated even, and maybe especially, amongst blacks.
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J,
“Personally, I cannot see it as an act of ‘loyalty’.”
Because you refuse to give black women any credit. I already know your schtick.
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I didn’t mean on quality (whether is worse to be discriminated based on your skin colour or gender), but on quantity- I thought there was “more” (hmmm… whatever that means) racism than sexism, simply because whites are still a majority.
Still, this issue opens another discussion: race vs gender. I think labelling who’s on top and who’s at the bottom is not a good thing, even if we agree white men are seen as the most powerful, and black women as the least powerful group. But when you try to put black men and white women into categories, things don’t seem so clear any more. To try to measure whether racism is worse than sexism for any single person is not a good thing, because things are not as simple.
Still, I was under the impression racism is still as strong simply because people (in charge and with power) constantly deny it, while sexism is often talked about everywhere and people, more or less, agree that women need rights (in a way they still don’t have it). And while many people dislike women who “whine” about being oppressed, this whining is not seen as annoying as black persons “whining” about racism.*
*Unless the woman is, I guess, black.
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Cheers M,
What I mean – or tried to say- is that lets take a plurarlistic society like New York, and lets presume its not racist.
There will also be ‘communities (religion, tribes, caste etc) and ‘ethnocentricism’.
The ethnocentricism of being raised in a specific culture/community in all probability, will be the over-riding factor in choice of partner.
In other words one will choose a partner akin to self and/or culture and this is what I meant by ‘natural choice’.
I hope this makes a little sense
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Furthermore, if I may to say, the “fighting for white approval” and adopting white view also affects blacks. I did read so many messages of black men disrespecting black women (and vice versa) (not here, on the Internet in general). While people should discuss things and while I don’t really believe in group loyalty as the best thing on the world, I can’t help noticing many who decide to go against people of their own race, but of different gender, often show racist tendencies that seem like something only a white person can say. Also, some show an amazing level of sexism. (on both sides- women can be sexist too).
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J–
That does make sense. Interesting, it brings up how we would define a “non racist” society. Would people still split themselves up into the groups you describe or would race truly become a meaningless marker? Different topic.
Mira–
I think white women are seen as “whiny” and black women as angry. Important to note–many white women will loudly proclaim themselves not feminists, say they enjoy their place or deny sexism. While some blacks do make the equivalent statements, I’d put it at a far lower number. As I said, the sexism faced by white women is of the comfortable sort–don’t break our rules and we’ll let you live comfortably.
I’m a white American woman and in high school, generally I was treated well and with respect by most white males UNTIL I enrolled in AP classes, UNTIL I came up with answers in class they could not, UNTIL I rejected male advances–until I broke the laws of being a (white) woman. I once overheard myself described as “not a girl”, which was strange to me as I appeared quite feminine. However, I always had the privilege of bending to their rules and being treated well accordingly which can’t be said of black men or women. Comfortable repression. Pernicious but not quite comparable.
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“I didn’t mean on quality (whether is worse to be discriminated based on your skin colour or gender), but on quantity- I thought there was “more” (hmmm… whatever that means) racism than sexism, simply because whites are still a majority.”
Most blacks spend more time around other blacks than whites. Thus the number of encounters with sexism v. racism is going to be skewed in the former direction (even though I don’t think many notice it). Black men are still men and thus able to be as sexist as other men.
“Still, I was under the impression racism is still as strong simply because people (in charge and with power) constantly deny it, while sexism is often talked about everywhere and people, more or less, agree that women need rights (in a way they still don’t have it).”
Racism and sexism are both talked about. But to be honest, sexism is taken a lot less seriously, by men and women. Racism, on the other hand, might be denied but it seems to always hit whites hard when they are accused of it (whether they do anything about it is another issue).
“And while many people dislike women who “whine” about being oppressed, this whining is not seen as annoying as black persons “whining” about racism.*
Oh, yes it is. You’ve never been around men who complain about those “damn feminists”? I hear something like this at least every other day. Men have even taken to believing that sexism, by and large, does not exist.
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Mira, how did you come to this conclusion?
Black men are affected by racism, but their group (males) is the major oppressor when it comes to sexism.
I ask because while I understand what you were trying to convey, I’ve found in my experiences that white men(Americans & Australians for sure, & certain Europeans) in general tend to be very sexist. Like when two whites get together, and one white person thinks the other white person is just as racist as they are when they begin saying racist things, when males get together, they tend to say some pretty disgusting things about women. I don’t know where the line is drawn in which you can say it’s “guys just being guys” and when it becomes outright sexism/misogyny — it’s just that when white men do it, people seem to tolerate it. But if the perpetrator is a non-white male, then people raise issue with it(like people’s tendency to exclusively condemn rap music). Just my experience.
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I should note, the definition of being “treated well accordingly” isn’t necessarily respectful–it does involve a good level of demeaning and objectification. Nevertheless, very little hatred or hostility involved.
See “The Angel in the House” myth among white men.
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KeyserSoze,
“I ask because while I understand what you were trying to convey, I’ve found in my experiences that white men(Americans & Australians for sure, & certain Europeans) in general tend to be very sexist.”
Oh, I was going to disagree, but I see you are referring to non-American white men. American white men I wouldn’t say are more sexist than black men. It’s about equal.
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I’ve never seen much of a difference in sexism between the races. It seems pretty much identical.
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@M
I’m a white American woman and in high school, generally I was treated well and with respect by most white males UNTIL I enrolled in AP classes, UNTIL I came up with answers in class they could not, UNTIL I rejected male advances–until I broke the laws of being a (white) woman. I once overheard myself described as “not a girl”.
You’re right about the “not a girl” thing. I am white (non American) woman, and I must admit I don’t remember experiencing sexism. But then again, I know I am not seen as feminine but a tomboy. Growing up, I was often told I was smart but rarely beautiful.
I think, yes, it is sexist: for a woman to be seen as an equal, or fully human, she must not be “too feminine”, or else she is seen as “just a girl”.
So yes, my experience might not be an average female experience since I’m not seen as feminine enough to be considered unequal.
@Natasha W
But to be honest, sexism is taken a lot less seriously, by men and women. Racism, on the other hand, might be denied but it seems to always hit whites hard when they are accused of it (whether they do anything about it is another issue).
You’re right, thanks for opening my eyes! Being called a sexist doesn’t seem to affect people as much as being called racist. Maybe that’s why I thought it was more of a non-issue.
Now, I consider myself feminist but I also did observe when women try to use being female as excuse. When they see they can’t get something the easy way, they get upset (“white women’s tears style”), threaten they’ll call their fathers (I am serious!) and are generally surprised they can’t get everything based on being female. And all I’m being thinking in those situations are all women beaten by their husbands and fathers, their human rights denied, women all over the world seen as less than human, living in bad conditions and without education, etc. So I am sorry but I can’t easily sympathise with any woman just because she is female like me. *
* Though I did notice I subconsciously identify with women (of all races) much more than men (of my own race). So while I might not think see black men as members of “my” group, I do see black women as members of my group (but not white men).
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@KeyserSoze
I ask because while I understand what you were trying to convey, I’ve found in my experiences that white men(Americans & Australians for sure, & certain Europeans) in general tend to be very sexist.
When I said: “Black men are affected by racism, but their group (males) is the major oppressor when it comes to sexism.” I meant on their group: MALES, not their group BLACKS. While I do know there are sexist women, major oppressors when it comes to sexism are MEN. Black men are men. Their group (men) are the major oppressors. That’s what I meant.
I wasn’t talking about whether black men are more sexist than white men. I don’t know (I know only white men), but my wild guess is that it’s about the same.
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Nonsense, some jews are the most racist people on the planet
as for this
” Or: to go back in time to far worse examples, white women have had black men lynched for rape to cover up what was just an affair in order to save their name. ”
I believe this would be true, you see, you’ve placed yoursel in the position of proving it
By the way, white men were also lynched in those times
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Mira–
The “not a girl” issue is a double edged sword–some men (and women) will view women who don’t fit female stereotypes as having transcended their gender while others will view them as having broken an essential rule of womanhood and can get quite nasty.
I was one of two female students in my AP US History class and generally tended to get snickered at once I brought up points. Our (white, married) teacher was a staunch feminist and generally defended me. Early on, she described me as her “younger self”. However, when I brought up lesbian issues, I found myself pretty much left in the cold. Her only comment was that she was tired of strong women being assumed gay. I guess I was not part of her group anymore, not the younger self. If I’d been non white, I doubt she would ever have taken my part.
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With regard to this topic there has been made reference to race, sexism, but aspects of ‘class’ that impinges have not been brought into discussion.
Nor has there been any discussion on the suggestion that in how the present world is constructed, the males will have to be targeted first.
Is their any validity to this? Since if it is, then when all the men are ‘reduced’. What will be the status of ‘Black women’ in this scenario??
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Everything Abagond said is correct in my experience. White women are just as racist and white women (the racist ones) have the same thoughts and feeling behind their racism, they just cant act it out the way white men do. A white woman probably wouldnt lead a lynch mob or gather some of her girlfriends to drag a black person behind a pick up truck, but she would be a cheerleader for white men how do it.
Like I said on the other thread some people are using the empathic nature or women(real or perceived) to come to the conclusion that white women are less racist. They may not act on it as frequently but the thoughts and feeling are still there.
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The “not a girl” issue is a double edged sword–some men (and women) will view women who don’t fit female stereotypes as having transcended their gender while others will view them as having broken an essential rule of womanhood and can get quite nasty.
Not sure what really applies. All I know is that a woman have a much better chance to be seen as an equal and as fully human if she is not seen as “feminine”. If she is seen as feminine she will get more male attention but it would be more difficult for her to prove she is an equal.
I wrote about it here: Women: How not to be seen as fully human.
As for education, I don’t know. The stereotype in my culture is that females are better students than males. The prejudice often comes in some jobs that don’t require much education but are seen as “masculine” (plumbers, truck and taxi drivers, etc). Oh, an police and military. But not college education.
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@ Y:
while (for the reasons I described earlier) I do imagine white women probably are less racist, if anything it’s only a slight difference of degree.
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Y,
I don’t see women as more empathic by nature, or less violent. The most of it is cultural and a learned behaviour. A culture that values female violence and male empathy would be full of violent women.
There is, however, one thing where I usually DO see women more empathic: motherhood. There are fathers who are better parents than mothers, and there are many cold hearted mothers. Still, I do think mother love is a strong force.
Then again, Abagond and others pointed out the cases of (white) mothers who couldn’t overcome racism in order to help their (non-white) children. These mothers refused to believe their kids were discriminated and treated as less than human by whites. I can understand that people are ignorant, but it looks like I am not able to understand that ignorance is stronger than mother love.
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Yes White women can be just as racist as White men but due to them being women ( a marginalized group) they cannot carry out as well as White men and be taken serious. Which is why the hurt and pain that Black women or women of color have endured from White women’s racism and sexism (Yes many will throw sexism and racism at Black women when in certain situations) and as you can see it it is not taken very serious. Black women are seen as the angry black woman who beat up on the precious White woman. Even if they started it! It will always be that way until people understand that intersectionality. White women tears is a racist and sexist logic that has scarred people of color. It’s racist because it highly values White women as being pure idealist and it’s sexist because it reduces White women to being children who needs protection and don’t know how to defend themselves. Although Kanye was trifling for what he did, you saw Taylor’s white woman’s tears worked to her advantage lol. Like Paul Mooney said, “She got the complexion for the protection” She had more support than Rhianna did and Chris Brown beat her!
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“Then again, Abagond and others pointed out the cases of (white) mothers who couldn’t overcome racism in order to help their (non-white) children. These mothers refused to believe their kids were discriminated and treated as less than human by whites.”
Where was this?
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Mira,
“I don’t see women as more empathic by nature, or less violent. The most of it is cultural and a learned behaviour. A culture that values female violence and male empathy would be full of violent women.”
I agree with this. Most people are not very empathetic. People can be more sensitive than others, sure, but in most cases this sensitivity only arises when it comes to themselves and their loved ones.
dani,
“Although Kanye was trifling for what he did, you saw Taylor’s white woman’s tears worked to her advantage lol. Like Paul Mooney said, “She got the complexion for the protection” She had more support than Rhianna did and Chris Brown beat her!”
Wow, thanks for bringing that up. I was absolutely appalled by the lack of empathy and caring shown to Rihanna. By blacks no less. I saw it as a form of sexism: blacks (including black women) value black men over black women, so it was easy for them to come to Chris’ defense. It actually seemed like whites showed more empathy towards Rihanna. But I can see the racism when you compare it to Taylor’s situation.
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FG,
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It actually seemed like whites showed more empathy towards Rihanna.
Sadly, I believe it was more because it “proved” their stereotype of violent black men, not because they were concerned about Rihanna as a person.
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Find a racist man. You will find a racist mom.
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@Mira,
I wouldn’t take those as representative cases. I think the vast majority of white moms of mixed children are attentive and sympathetic to problems that their kids encounter.
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I wouldn’t take those as representative cases. I think the vast majority of white moms of mixed children are attentive and sympathetic to problems that their kids encounter.
Let’s move it to the larger scale: slavery. We know white fathers didn’t really mind their kids being sold into slavery, and many didn’t do anything to help them. Do you believe it would be different with white mothers?
Like I said, I am unable to imagine a mother who wouldn’t fight for her child and who could sell it. But those things are, sadly, happening every day.
Bonus question: do you think slavery would be the same, more, or less extreme with white women in charge? Or maybe you think there would be no slavery? (General you, not just FG).
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Wow, thanks for bringing that up. I was absolutely appalled by the lack of empathy and caring shown to Rihanna. By blacks no less. I saw it as a form of sexism: blacks (including black women) value black men over black women, so it was easy for them to come to Chris’ defense. It actually seemed like whites showed more empathy towards Rihanna. But I can see the racism when you compare it to Taylor’s situation.
Yeah Natasha. It was crazy! I was on a forum and I saw more Black people women and men run to Taylor’s defense for suffering embarrassment, while Rihanna gets victim blame for someone else’s failure to keep his hands to himself.
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Mira,
“Sadly, I believe it was more because it “proved” their stereotype of violent black men, not because they were concerned about Rihanna as a person.”
Eh. I didn’t get that impression. I think white women (i.e. white feminists) were more sympathetic because domestic violence is something that they’ve always worked against. I agree that they were more interested in the principle behind it than the individual involved.
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I thought we were talking about white men’s reaction. Sorry, my mistake.
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And don’t forget about R. Kelly–a grown man peeing on a 14-year-old isn’t a crime, it’s “just the way those fast-ass Black girls are”. In anti-racism circles there’s often talk about “nice” White people being complicit in racism by not speaking up, and the same goes for Black men allowing other Black men to denigrate and disrespect Black women.
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@ Eurasian Sensation
I was thinking about your less racist theory and the connection to the female tendency to be more charitable. Certainly I agree that empathy is apart of being less [insert -ism here] but consider that a great deal of people who do charity work do so out of pity, which maintains the notion of one being better than some others. Hence that charity bit can be used against white women.
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Here’s my essay on Save The Last Dance:
Warning: My review may not sit well with some people who want life to be seen in rose-colored glasses or the ideology of “colorblindness.”
My view on the 2001 movie, “Save the Last Dance”
I’ve rented the video, “Save the Last Dance,” to find out what the hype was about. It’s just a typical movie about a middle-class suburban white woman dates a black man from the inner city. The movie’s success depends on using dated stereotypes: “angry black woman,” “thuggish black man,” and “innocent” white women. White men, with few exceptions such as Sara’s father, barely register in that inner-city flick. The movie is set in South Side, a predominately black area of Chicago. She’s taken in by her jazz musician father who barely figured in her life. His home, in contrast to his daughter’s large, decorative suburban house, was a small flat. The apartment building where her estranged father Roy lived, was dilapidated and in desperate need of repairs. His apartment was no better. It was sort of unkempt, keeping with the stereotypes of bachelor and artists not having a care in the world. Meanwhile, blond Sara is trying to adjust her life in the inner city, going to Wheatley High, a predominatly black high school where students check in going through metal detectors, which were absent in Sara’s old school in Lemont, IL. That says a lot about the racial/class disparities of two neighborhoods. It was at Wheatley where Sara met a gifted young man named Derek. Derek is a very hardworking student who is also college-bound. He’s going to Georgetown to study pediatrics so he can become a doctor. The producers could have shown more black men who are studious and honorable. No, they have to pander to prevailing stereotypes of black men as the thuggish, predatory criminals that populate the flick.
Sara and Derek became fast friends and even was invited by Chenille to dance at “Stepps,” a hip-hop nightclub where Wheatley students party on weekends.
Derek encourages her to start back on her ballet, which she gave up after her mother’s untimely death. Her friend Chenille was a single teenage mother who is making it on her own. She’s struggling to raise and protect her toddler son, Christopher, from pitfalls and obstacles she and her brother suffered. Their mother once served time in jail for drug possession and prostitution and who wasn’t involved in their lives. Black women today formed the fastest growing prison population due to the draconian and racist war on drugs policies. Their kids are being taken away and put into foster care, for rarely do nonblacks adopt “black” kids and “black” parents had to go through a series of bureaucracy which takes up to several years before adopting them. As a result, most black kids are informally taken care of by friends and relatives such as Derek’s and Chenille’s grandmother.
The subject of interracial relationships, they could have done a much better job than that. The movie overemphasize the anger of several black women, while downplaying or minimizing the anger or opposition from whites of both genders. Most movie reviewers said nearly nothing about the opposition of Derek’s male buddies to his budding relationship with Sara, not to mention white opposition to IRs. His friends told him that he lost his pride and that he needs to “watch his back,” which is understandable because of society’s persistent opposition to interracial relationships as well as the legacy of history of lynching, imprisonment, and castrations of black men pursuing love and marriage across racial lines. The murder of Emmit Till comes to mind. Even today, there’s that fear in which black and biracial black men could be imprisoned, even killed for such things as the young teenage man named Marcus Dixon in Georgia who was imprisoned recently for having a consensual relationship with a teenaged white girl. He was college-bound and gifted like the Derek character in the movie. His friend, Malakai, told his girlfriend that she didn’t belong at Steps and that his ex-girlfriend, played by Bianca Lawson, was the better choice. He feel that by his friend dating outside of the race, he was selling out. Also, the comment by her white friend about Sarah’s living in a “war zone.” To her suburban friend, the inner city of Chicago is “full of violent blacks” who prey upon one another and that is full of hopelessness, bleakness, and despair. She obviously don’t have a clue because she lives in a lily-white world and what white-owned media tells her. She also asked her friend whether her school has white boys because she thinks that one should date/marry within the race and that she wouldn’t find men of color attractive. Then there’s a middle-aged white lady on the train staring at the couple. She evidence her prejudices by her hate stare as well as saying hateful things under her breath. Even her father didn’t want her to date outside of her race by telling her to be home at a “decent hour.” For him, who neglected his daughter for many years, to tell her to be at home while he’s out playing jazz in Chicago’s nightclubs almost every night. In fact, only near the end of the film, did he show her fatherly affection and love.
The portrayal of black women in the movie were mostly negative, with few exceptions. Many of the women were portrayed as single mothers, angry harpies, loose women, immoral, and as victims. I didn’t like the blown out-of -proportion fight between Sara and Nikki at the high-school gym nor do I like the cluelessness and naivete of Sara when confronted by friends, family, and acquaintances at the school. She thinks that everyone lives in the same world, which is based upon her white suburban perspective. She thinks the world is colorblind and is full of fair-minded people. Her friend corrected her by telling about her world and the people in it. It’s not the world Sarah envisioned. It’s a world inhabited by people of color, many of whom are poor, working-class, and lower middle class, with fewer job opportunities, fewer amenities than in affluent white areas. It’s also a world where people are being abused by others, whether the abuse is being conducted by police, store owners, teachers, family members, or strangers passing by. The problem with the movie is that it privilege Sara as being morally superior to the black women in the neighborhood. Mainstream society writes off the inner city as “hopeless area full of poor people of color who couldn’t do better and as an area full of criminals, prostitutes, drug addicts, ‘no-good’ single mothers, and ‘unemployed bums.'” Such views have been articulated by politicians who need middle-class voters for reelection. For example, the late ex-president Ronald Reagan blamed poor black women on welfare for scamming middle and upper class taxpayers. Many scared middle-class voters have bought the idea of poor blacks destroying America and its way of life.
Getting back to Nikki, I think she was mad at Sara because she represent naive, suburban white females who date black men without thinking about their whiteness/pedestaled white femaleness which advantaged them. White females are not that far from black men in the racial/gender hierarchy. They can cross the racial divide if they so desired. Whereas black and biracial black women, having neither racial nor gender privilege cannot. We’re not as valued as other women, especially white women. American society has long placed white women upon pedestals, especially during slavery and segregation periods, while black women bore the brunt of racial and sexual abuse by men of all races, even today. The revelation of Essie Mae Williams’ claim that she is the late Senator Strom Thurmond’s child is a case in point. He abused his 15-year old maid at his parents house in 1924. Her mother didn’t had any right to resist because Mr. Thurmond was the one who had all the power. He could kill her if she didn’t comply. Or the tabloid saga of Britney Spears’ fiance’s spurning of his ex- girlfriend Shar Jones while she was still pregnant with their second child. He didn’t think his ex was worthy enough to marry, following the pattern of most white and other nonblack men who have relationships with black and biracial black women. Chenille, highly angered by her baby’s daddy’s(Kenny) recent dissing, lets Sara know clearly that white girls like her who steal the best black men from under black women’s noses aren’t always cool. She told Sara at an inner-city doctors’ office full of black single mothers with children that she doesn’t understand black womens’ frustration with interracial dating, that Sara, being white, is taking away the decent black men after jail, drugs, and death and that she is using her white privilege in dating successful men of color. I hated that she was forced by the script to apologize. The statement Chenille about life in her inner city and her perception that white women go after only sucessful black men were most telling. One aspect of white female privilege that is almost never addressed in mainstream media and academia, that is, the naivete of white females when it comes to interracial relationships. The racial
hierarchy in female beauty/feminity needs to be addressed. I
don’t feel the movie adequately address the issue that is between black/biracial and white women in American society today. Colorism in the film is ubiquitous, with the white girl at the center, then Nikki, played by Bianca Lawson. Diggy, who may either be a white or latina, was played by Elisabeth Oas. The said girls are either white or light-skinned. Chenille was played by the brown-skinned, shorter haired Kerry Washington. Momma Dean, Chenille’s grandmother, is played by Dorothy Martin. The white girls in the film were given an aura of innocence, while black women were portrayed as experienced and “loose” as well as victims of either bullies such as Malakai, played by Fredo Starr or irresponsible cads like Kenny, played by Garland Witt and the single mothers at the doctor’s office, where Chenille told Sara to look around and see what’s happening in their community instead of herself.
I give Save the Last Dance one star because it was about Sara and her struggles instead of exploring the struggles of Derek, his sister, and the community which Sara temporarily resides. As a matter of fact, her white skin privilege keeps her from doing so. The example of Sara ‘s quick glance at the single mothers at the doctor’s office after Chenille said some things about life, she still didn’t get it. Or the argument between her and Derek at the school’s dance studio regarding the fight and their future together, saying that the relationship is too hard for her because of the opposition from all sides, while dismissing Derek’s viewpoint on life in the South Side of Chicago. Earlier in the film, she dismiss oppostion to her relationship by whites by showing off their display of affection on a subway, where a middle-aged white woman disapproved of them being together, yet black people’s opposition to IRs are a big deal to her. Either she is clueless to their views of the world or her whiteness blinds her to certain realities people of color face in everyday life.
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I think they are less racist as a group compared to their male counterparts b/c they’re more inclined to date, marry, and have children by black and brown men, and even help raise their non-white step children and love them.
I’ve also seen white teachers and social workers get in the trenches to help minority kids. They didn’t have to choose these occupations or work in non-white areas, but they did, and they get hit with same lack of resources for kids like everyone else.
I can’t deny there are racist white women by a long shot, but when I consider the above, I think they’re less bigoted as group.
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^Those same things can be said for white males. I know white men who date, marry black women and work as teachers and social workers.
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But forgive me here you also observed earlier that more White femals participate in inter-realtionship than their male counterparts
” ‘Good point: white women marry black more than white men do. But I think that is because black men prize white women…’
This is correct!!”
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^Right. So there is nothing to congratulate on white women’s part for being less racist.
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But Kit’s point is
‘I think they are less racist as a GROUP compared to their male counterparts.
And hence why my previous post
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J,
‘I think they are less racist as a GROUP compared to their male counterparts.”
And my point is, they are not.
But your meta-analysis/babble is becoming annoying and dishonest. It’s pretty clear by now that you (a) have no regard for black women and (b) are fond of white women. Indeed, you are a perfect example of what was brought in the “White’s Women’s Tears” post regarding black men rushing to the defense of white women. In the foolish black man’s world only white men are “evil and racist.”
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Natasha,
Forgive me you have more reason to defend White people, and specifically White males, because you are in an IRR.
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^And yet I’ve never done so.
You know as well as i do that I hold everyone’s feet to the fire.
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Personally I see you defending their cause most of the time in your politics and thinking whilst on this blog.
However, this is your choice – and so be it!!
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@ Natasha –
I would venture to say J has dated inter-racially (unknown on my part), but I would say the majority of his posts are an analysis of the self hatred affecting the Black community as a whole and his engagement in conversing about the subject.
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ha ha ColorofLuv,
Hope you enjoying your beer
Thank you for the words also, but Laramona may have a point, don’t let me deceive you, or should that be the beer
he he
Cheers mate
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J
“Personally I see you defending their cause most of the time in your politics and thinking whilst on this blog. “
Find me three instances where I’ve done this. Actually, find more than that since I do this “most” of the time.
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Color O’ Luv.
“I would venture to say J has dated inter-racially (unknown on my part)”
For sure he has, and I bet he dates white and non-black women exclusively. Yet he wants to tell black women they are “self-haters” in dating white men, just like his hero Frantz Fanon.
“but I would say the majority of his posts are an analysis of the self hatred affecting the Black community as a whole and his engagement in conversing about the subject.”
Of course a black man who loves white women so much and despises black women would know about self-hate. In that, I say, carry on.”
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Natasha W.
Forgive me but I am not going to pursue your request
If you feel what I have said is incorrect, then that should be more than sufficient for you.
However, I have stated honestly and sincerely what I have seen since my time here – and without any malice too. Otherwise I would have said this a very long time ago
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J,
“Forgive me but I am not going to pursue your request”
But I do it “most of the time!!!” So examples should be easy to find; it would only take you a second.
…J, you’re making up stuff in an attempt to direct attention away from your clear hypocrisy. But I think most people, besides Color O’ Luv and maybe abagond, see it.
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I have always felt that when a marginalized group has the opportunity to be part of the majority on something, they take it because they want to enjoy having power over someone for once since every other time someone has power over them.
That is probably why alot of minority groups tend to look down on homosexuality more than whites, and not just on the basis of Christianity (which is a whole different issue about majority vs. minority).
You definitely start to see how easy it is to ignore or care less about an issue when it doesn’t affect you. I know I tend to be more passive about homosexuality (I am neither for it or against it), and religion (although at this point I am an agnostic (who leans more Christian than atheist) and am thus in the minority right now).
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Natasha,
I feel ya!
As a whole, I don’t feel black men support black women as much as other cultures support theirs. At this point, it’s almost instinctual to put white women on a higher level unless they’ve been intentionally raised to value black women. I come from a place where this mentality is rampant.
White women might be racist in different ways. If she inherientantly thinks that she is above all others and if an “other” blocks her shine in some way, trust me, you’ll see her true self. I think that most are fine as long as the woc is in their place. But if you have something that is appealing to them, it’s different. SOME not all. This is how their racism manifests.
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islandgirl, ITA, except I’d say all non-black women instead of white women in the first paragraph.
It’s so funny though, that black men, of all people, should think that white women are not racist. Are they living in the same world I am? Who is the person clutching her purse as they or another black man walks down the street? Who are the people who see black men through the “Mandingo” myth that reduces them to brawn at the expense of brains (both genders would be guilty of this one)? Who (still) falsely accuses black men of all crimes under the sun?
In another post I mentioned some time ago how white female friends and family of my SO reacted to our relationship. One woman, at a dinner said that she understood why I would choose my SO seeing as most “black men are in prison ” or otherwise useless. (Yes, we had a little “chat.” immediately following this) And that wasn’t an isolated incident; plenty of them expressed how they felt I was making the obvious, sensible decision of not choosing black men. TBH, I don’t think white women like black men anymore than white men do. At least, they’ve never given me that impression. Many seem afraid, pitying, or disdainful of them.
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@ Natasha:
“It’s so funny though, that black men, of all people, should think that white women are not racist.”
I think you have taken a slightly different interpretation than some of us here.
What J, Kit and myself have said is that white women might be on the whole less racist than white men.
That is very different to not racist. I don’t think anyone is saying that at all.
Your point to Kit about white men also doing social work or intermarrying, etc is valid but Kit was saying that white women are on the whole more likely to do those things.
I don’t agree with the idea that to say these kinds of things must equate to “defending white women”.
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[quote]Or: to go back in time to far worse examples, white women have had black men lynched for rape to cover up what was just an affair in order to save their name.[/quote]
It’s sickening how these women lied so their reputations wouldn’t be sullied and allowed innocent men to die.
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Mira, I believe I may have originally misinterpreted, however:
When I said: “Black men are affected by racism, but their group (males) is the major oppressor when it comes to sexism.” I meant on their group: MALES, not their group BLACKS. While I do know there are sexist women, major oppressors when it comes to sexism are MEN. Black men are men. Their group (men) are the major oppressors. That’s what I meant.
Obviously– I wasn’t trying to say otherwise, neither was I trying to say otherwise in regards to which group of males is more sexist than who. All I pointed out was the blatant double standard that exists in which a group(or groups) of males are disproportionately labeled as sexist/misogynistic, when no group(or groups) of males have a monopoly on it, just like the blatant double standards in regards to racism. What I was doing was elaborating further on the issue of sexism, not trying to dispute what you said.
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to go back in time to far worse examples, white women have had black men lynched for rape to cover up what was just an affair in order to save their name.
It’s sickening how these women lied so their reputations wouldn’t be sullied and allowed innocent men to die.
Try an entire town. Ever heard of Rosewood? A Black town in Florida in the 1920s burned to the ground because a white woman intentionally lied to cover up her affair.
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Just for clarification ES,
I did not say White women were less racist than White men. It is Natasha who suggested I had.
What I did was that I quoted Kit, because I found it strange that Natasha sought to reply to her response with the counter-argument of ‘White males’, to point out that was not Kit’s claim.
No need for apologies either…
Be that as it may…
you raise an important point that no-one is suggesting that White women are not racist, which had me thinking also that I cannot remember (and I have not checked – honestly) any Black male here defending ‘White women’ in the way she has suggested. In fact if anything it appears that it is other females some Black who have suggested they may be ‘less’ racist.
Perhaps its her conversations on other blogs which is what is being conflated here
Either way some of her comments, reasoning and conclusions seem incongruent to what has been stated by the commentators, in my own humble opinion.
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I’ve met some white women who openly admit that they prefer black men because of that myth that they are great in bed. There was no other reason as to why they date black men. That was the only reason they gave. To me it’s saying that you see black men as your sexual objects and nothing more. It says that you do not love or even possibly value them as people, but you value them for what they can do for you sexually.
I’ve also met some white women who think that by marrying outside their race proves that they’re not racist. To them that POC is proof that they’re not racist simply because they are non-white. Some will only date POC and usually the reason has some stereotypical nonsense behind it.
So, in a way I think white women are just as racist, but it’s unique to them apart from their male counterparts.
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White women are just that, white first, and women second. They live in the same houses with white men, and they want the same power they see their men wielding. They’re not interested in aligning themselves with brown folks against racism.
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It’s not that white women are more inclined to date, marry & procreate with black, brown men. It’s that, just like all humans, white women are inclined to enjoy the benefits of being on a pedestal & as an earlier commenter pointed out, white women are more prized by black & brown men. White men are no slouches at prizing them either, but familiarity can breed contempt (just check out a few MRA blogs).
About the idea of black womens’ loyalty to black men. That’s more a function of socialization. Black women are taught that the targets of racism are black men ONLY or at least that racism against black men must always be the focus. It’s kinda like oppression olympics–his oppression is more oppressive than yours. Therefore, black women must always support & uplift the black man. In the black community black men are on a pedestal. That’s why some black women carry the “nothing but a black man” banner. It’ not that they can’t get a man, but that the man must be a black man.
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There are some whites who are aware of and enjoy white privilege. It seems to me though that the average white person truely believes racism was something the happened before the 70s and sees day to day life as being the same for everyone.
Case in point: I asked one white female friend if she thought slavery and racism affect the life of today’s black people. She said “Well it’s like…everybody gets up, drives to work, comes home, makes dinner…how is their life different from mine?”
If anything there seems to be a tone of believeing blacks have more privilige now than other races and also free passes.
There’s not really any way to prove if one group or another gets specific privilige in the work/hiring environment because companies don’t share that info. But when a person *really* starts paying attention to the experience of other races outside their own it’s a rattling sensation. I think the average white is so used to thinking they’re the “norm” it doesn’t even occur to them what might be going on with others is so very different from what they know.
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I must agree that when a black man assaults a black woman, the black women is usually thrown under the bus. Take Mike Tyson, although that young woman made the mistake of meeting Tyson late at night many black leaders crowded around him. Although this 5″ 2′ woman has severe vaginal tears an bruises, black men were quick to say that she made it up. He also beat on Robyn Givens when they were married but that was O.K. because she was a “goldigger.” There is a bias towards black men in our community and this idea that black men suffer the most. Absolute bull and after years of defending every thing black men do I am now praising those who do right and “outing” those who suck!
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To eshowoman:
I remember that back in the day as well, and it seems to be a habit of that going on in this society where we tend to blame the victim instead of the victimizers. It’s true not only in racism but when it comes to domestic violence. We tend to look at the victim which is often times (as reported) the female and concludes that “Hey, she brought it on herself.” Some members of society will jump on the bandwagon and blame the woman, and excuse the man.
I think both black men AND women are suffering in their own ways, but one gender’s suffering should not be placed higher above the other’s. To give black men a pass is not the answer, and to give black women a pass is not the answer either. I heard bashing from both sides, and neither side realizes that we’re all in the same boat.
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With regard to:
“I think both black men AND women are suffering in their own ways, but one gender’s suffering should not be placed higher above the other’s.”
On a political level this will not happen, but personally I think you have to and/or at the very least recognise the fact.
However, the way ‘political change’ seems to operate is that it is usually at one level. In other words you do not get ‘an all encompassing revolution’
Take the US Civil Right movements, for a very long time that struggle was merely about ‘integrating’ Blacks into U.S society without even challenging or referring to the disparity in socio-economic factors.
Its only later that the importance and siginficance of socio-economics became recognised.
Hmmm!!!
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Eurasian Sensation,
With all due respect, I was not referring to what you said; I know what you said. You are not a black male. So no need to feel like I am pointing the finger at you.
Anyway, to your points:
“That is very different to not racist. I don’t think anyone is saying that at all.”
Point taken. Although I still disagree that they are less racist on the average.
You people seem to forget that we still live in a patriarchy. Men are still in power, and women still do not have as much power, if any at all. So the ability for white women to engage in overtly racist acts the way white men do is minimized substantially. However, the mentality of racist thinking is still there.
“Your point to Kit about white men also doing social work or intermarrying, etc is valid but Kit was saying that white women are on the whole more likely to do those things.”
Women in general do more social work. Social work is still a “women’s profession.” I’m not convinced that white women are championing the rights of blacks and others. And there are plenty of white men that do — ever heard of Tim Wise? Robert Jensen? For every example of white women doing good, I could provide an example of white men doing so.
“I don’t agree with the idea that to say these kinds of things must equate to “defending white women”.
It is absolutely defending white women. In fact, it is backing white supremacy via white women. If you can’t see that it is, well, that’s not really my problem, is it?
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J,
“I did not say White women were less racist than White men. It is Natasha who suggested I had.”
Um, do you really think that people can’t read? You’ve absolutely been saying that white women are less racist than white men this entire time via your sideline babbling/quoting other people.
“you raise an important point that no-one is suggesting that White women are not racist, which had me thinking also that I cannot remember (and I have not checked – honestly) any Black male here defending ‘White women’ in the way she has suggested.
The black male here defending white women is you. Because you prefer them to black women. One can easily scroll to the opening comments of this post and see that.
You ever heard of the saying “The blacker the talk, the whiter the woman?” You remind me of that saying, all the time. You go on and on about “revolution,” “saving the race,” and all that jazz, but what you really mean is “Save the black males, so they can go shack up with white women.”
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You ever heard of the saying “The blacker the talk, the whiter the woman?”
LOL, that’s so true. It’s one of the reasons I’m suspicious of the “black power” “Afika forever” “black melanin dominates” type of folks
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@ Natasha:
“It is absolutely defending white women. In fact, it is backing white supremacy via white women. If you can’t see that it is, well, that’s not really my problem, is it?”
I’m afraid I just don’t get it then.
I won’t speak for anyone else, but in essence what I’m speculating is this: White women are often racist, and white men are even more likely to be racist.
And to me that is not a defence of white women at all.
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Eurasian Sensation: define racist, i.e. your definition of racist.
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Cheers Natasha W,
You accuse me of defending White women on this thread.
However, even you must concede that you are specifically defending the role of ‘White males’ – in a sort of ironic way
‘And there are plenty of white men that do — ever heard of Tim Wise? Robert Jensen? For every example of white women doing good, I could provide an example of white men doing so’.
I thought the point of argument was about the group per se rather than individuals
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“However, even you must concede that you are specifically defending the role of ‘White males’ – in a sort of ironic way”
Of course I am! By saying that they are just as racist as white women (who I have indicated are very racist).
J, your logic needs work.
“I thought the point of argument was about the group per se rather than individuals”
Kit gave a few examples of individuals s/he knows of to support the idea that women are less racist as a group. I countered with a couple of examples of white men –who are actually specifically working against racism– to show that it isn’t only or mainly white women who engage in these activities. So, your beef should be with Kit in introducing individuals to represent the group.
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Well, the problem is, individuals can be anti-racist or racist. To measure a group as a whole it’s really difficult so all we can talk about personal experiences or offer personal theories. And all of them are, well, more or less personal and have a lot do do with our experience.
The thing is, the main point here is that it’s irrelevant whether white women as a group are more racist than white men as a group. It’s really difficult to measure a group’s racism after all. Still, it is evident that white women are often seen as less racist- simply because white men have more power and in many people’s mind male gender is still “neutral”, so when somebody say “white people” many think on white men only.
All in all, white women might not be more racist than white men- but they don’t seem to be less racist, and they tend to be more racist than it’s generally seen, and more racist than they (and others who “measure” them) believe white women should be (because they are women and all).
Also, let’s not forget that black women, being women, can understand other women of all ethnicities better than men; they can “read” them better so to speak and they can see through their shells more easily (just my opinion, of course). So isn’t is safe to assume black women know white women better and that they can sense their racism that is, I admit, often more subtle than the white male racism, but that doesn’t make it any less harmful.
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Natasha W.
I would agree with you that you are defending White males – where we depart is on the issue of ‘vested interest’.
If you read Kit’s example I think she goes a lot further than you actually suggest. When you say:
“Kit gave a few examples of individuals s/he knows of to support the idea that women are less racist as a group”.
She gave an example of IRR, which you readily concurred with Abagond on that point..
And here is Kit’s post:
“I think they are less racist as a group compared to their male counterparts b/c they’re more inclined to date, marry, and have children by black and brown men, and even help raise their non-white step children and love them.
I’ve also seen white teachers and social workers get in the trenches to help minority kids. They didn’t have to choose these occupations or work in non-white areas, but they did, and they get hit with same lack of resources for kids like everyone else.
I can’t deny there are racist white women by a long shot, but when I consider the above, I think they’re less bigoted as group”.
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J,
“I would agree with you that you are defending White males – where we depart is on the issue of ‘vested interest’.”
J, give me a break. The first sentence in my last comment to you was sarcasm, and you know it.
“She gave an example of IRR, which you readily concurred with Abagond on that point..”
J, I’m beginning to believe you take all of us commenters as fools.
Abagond did not say that white women are married interracially to black men more than white men are married interracially to black women because they are less racist. He disagreed with that stance and said he believes that this is the case because black men prize white women (i.e. they are pursuing them). Which is in turn what I agreed with.
I’m sure abagond will come to clarify for us; please don’t put words in his mouth.
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Mira, I agree completely.
Especially with your last paragraph. And I want to add that in our society, men are pitted against men, women are pitted against women. So if we add race to this equation, we can deduce that black women would have more experience with the racism of white women, which is often directed towards them (this would also apply to black men in relation to white men).
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I agree Natasha, but I must add I believe it’s not symmetric. While black men might know more about racism of white men than black women do, I believe black women know racism of white men better than black men know racism of white women.
(does this line make sense? lol)
What I’m saying is, white men are seen as “general”, “neutral” and a norm. Their group is the one that’s on top, so to speak, so often society is all about them. That’s why it’s easier for black women to learn about their racism than it is for black men to learn about white female racism, which is often more subtle and less talked about.
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Cheers Natasha W.
Just for clarification,
Abagond:
1. J:
Good point: white women marry black more than white men do. But I think that is because black men prize white women way more than white men prize black women. If it were due to white women being less racist then that should appear in other ways as well
1b Some say that the rate of interracial dating and marriage is driven by female racism, not male racism. Maybe so, but that does not give you a way to compare men to women, only women of different races.
Natasha W.
2. “Good point: white women marry black more than white men do. But I think that is because black men prize white women…” (Abagond)
This is correct”.
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J, I was not saying that I think it is because white women are less racist; obviously I don’t think that. You like to quote things and twist them around; your games are obvious. So that’s all I’ll say about that, unless you have something new (and intellectually honest) to add.
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This from Abagond’s White Mother Black Father article:
“The only study I know of done about the sex and race of one’s parents is one done by Willerman, Naylor and Myrianthopoulos in 1974: mixed children brought up by a black father and a white mother had a mean IQ of 104.7, more than 8 points higher than those raised by a white father and black mother: 96.4. And, by the way, almost 5 points higher than the mean white IQ and, in those days, nearly 20 points higher than the mean black IQ.”
I would love to see a more up-to-date study on this, but the data indicates that white women do well by their mixed offspring, no?
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FG, please don’t derail this into yet another discussion of biracials. That study is old as dirt and the circumstances of the time (i.e. education and lack thereof) clearly affected the outcomes of it.
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“FG, please don’t derail this into yet another discussion of biracials.”
This isn’t about biracials per se. It’s about how white women relate to those considered non-white.
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Mira,
“I agree Natasha, but I must add I believe it’s not symmetric. While black men might know more about racism of white men than black women do, I believe black women know racism of white men better than black men know racism of white women.
(does this line make sense? lol)”
It does make sense. You’re probably right on that too, now that I think about it. White men have and probably always will be the “boogie men” of white supremacy to black males and females alike, but white women and the role they play directly or indirectly in upholding white supremacy and racism is left undiscussed.
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It’s rather disheartening to see all these men of color defending WW.
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@Camille
I didn’t read the other comments. It is just too many of them! But for real!! They are defending white women! Wow, that is surprising (sarcasm)!
You know, I think white women appear less racist because I think white women simply aren’t as intimidated by blacks as much as white men are! White women are not stupid! They know that many blacks (rather men or women) put them on a pedestal! They are constantly prized for their beauty and personalities. So why would they be angry at blacks knowing that blacks (especially the men) worship them! Abagond, you are right! There are more relationships between black men and white women because black men prize them more! Who wouldn’t be flattered at the idea that the man you are interacting with prizes you so much! I wouldn’t be surprised if black men approach white women at a much greater rate than white men approach black women!
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Another thing! To say that the prevalency of interracial relationships is an indication of less racism doesn’t make too much sense when it comes to this conversation. According to the 2000 census, only 1 out of 200 white women were married to black men. Or something close to those figures. I don’t know much about relationships that doesn’t involve marriage, but that number is not a very large number!
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One last point! When blacks were trying to intergrate schools for the first time, as they were walking into the building, you had just as many white women screaming names at us as white men. White women have benefited from racism just as much as white men. And they know it! I am not saying that all white women are racist. I am sure there are some of them who are not. But I notice that black men are quick to assume that white women are innocent! Some black men have even said that the black women( and white men, of course) was more an obstacle to their progress than anything else. I have heard many black men say that black women are golddiggers and that white women support them more. Trust me, there are way more black women supporting poor black men, than white women. If anything, white women are way more likely to be with a wealthy man. Not us!
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Jeri, good point. If the rate of interracial marriages is looked at in terms of blacks, the number of black men/white women is higher than the opposite. But if it is looked at in terms of whites, the numbers for both pairs is around or less than 1 percent. That is not high at all. Not that the race of a someone’s partner is any gauge of their racism, anyway.
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A post on black men and white women and the possible “pedestal” reasons behind these relationships would be great for a discussion, I think.
Now, I am not saying all, or even the majority black men/white woman relationships are dishonest, or not real, deep or loving. But it would be interesting to discuss the issue of white women being seen as the most attractive, as a prize and the whole “white women on pedestal” thing.
Also, it would be nice to discuss white women’s perspective on these relationships, because their motives are sometimes seen as dishonest: for example, they see black men as oversexed (and all they want is sex), or they want to be adored and black men put them on pedestal, etc.*
*Of course, there are honest relationships, and people who are truly in love. So please don’t misinterpret this in a way I said “all white women” or “all black men”.
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When I said “black men seen as oversexed” I meant: white women go with that stereotype and that’s their only reason for dating black men (they’ll have sex with them but won’t introduce them to their parents and friends).
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Camille,
That’s life right now. But my question is, how long has this been going on? From what I hear, black men from the
60’s and 70’s were nothing like this. They would defend their women tooth and nail. Are things sliding in reverse?
Also, I honestly think that hip hop has the power to change these ideals if they would glorify black women more instead of degrading them. I’ve always thought that if hip hop artists wrote positive songs about bw and THEIR beauty, grace, style, ect., then others would catch on.
Mira,
As someone who lives in an area with nothing but bm/ww ir, I believe that the white women want to be adored. And they find that in a bm. A ww could be way below standards (no offense, but most are obese and not into grooming) and they will find a bm to adore them. Granted, the bm are certainly no prize themselves, but that doesn’t matter, so long as they could feel special.
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Jeri:
Thanks for reminding me of this picture, which I added to the post:
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@Abagond
Thankyou!
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islandgirl,
“That’s life right now. But my question is, how long has this been going on? From what I hear, black men from the 60′s and 70′s were nothing like this. They would defend their women tooth and nail. Are things sliding in reverse?”
Actually, you know the saying I quoted above — “The blacker the talk, the whiter the woman”? It was coined during the Black Power Movement of the ’60s/’70s when many of the black male “revolutionaries” were sleeping with and dating white women. 🙂
Apparently black men have had this mindset for some time; I have to take back what I said in the “White Women’s Tears” post about this being a new thing. I was speaking to an older black woman the other day and she confirmed this was the case in her time, but she tried to shrug it off as being only a certain group of black men.
I also forgot to cosign your comment that culture is behind a lot of this. American/UK culture is no fan of black people, and it seems black men have picked up that mindset, at least when it comes to black women. This explains why black men like abagond and my brother haven’t bought into this — they were raised outside of the typical culture.
At this point I do not see black men as any sort of allies. The few that care about black women I will support, but gone are the days that I will support black men as a whole.
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Abagond
It is about time someone told the truth!
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I love the picture.
To appear proud and strong while hiding our tears behind sunglasses.
A gift or a curse, i wonder.
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abagond, can you clarify for J and I about what you meant by your first comment on this post? He seems to think you were saying (or, rather, he is twisting your statement into saying) that the IR marriage rate between white women and black men is an indication of less racism of white women.
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“The blacker the talk, the whiter the woman”?
And then there are the ones who will let you know that they don’t like black women! At least they don’t hide behind a veneer of “Black Power”. I have seen, and been the brunt of these self-hating fools on both sides of the coin. Fortunately, they have been few and far between in my experience.
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And just to add that there is a difference between ‘Black power politics’ a la Black Panthers and ‘race politics’ a la UNIA.
In fact the two even though they are similar, are also different in considerable ways, and one is where inter-racial dating is not permitted in the latter.
And one of the reason why it is not permitted is because of the ‘compromising of allegiance’
I thought I would just add that into the equation.
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Natasha W,
I realise that there can be a huge gulf between the words on a computer screen, and our mindset affaecting our interpretations.
I am slightly confused, what you think I said and also its not clear what you want Abagond to clarify, on the basis of what YOU thought I said??
Then again, best not speak to soon, since perhaps the problem lies with me
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@Hernieth
My belief concerning black men who refuse to love and marry black women, is that these men don’t love and like themselves! If they are confident and happy with themselves and life in general, they are way more kinder to black women. I was fortunate in that I have experienced both types of black males. When I was a child, I came accross young black boys who would humilate and abuse black girls on a regular basis because of these little girls skin color or hair. Often, these little boys were very, very dark themselves! Then I met a few boys that were incredibly kind. They were often very attractive, rather they were light or dark, seemed very happy, and came from very loving families. Misery loves company! That is why it is important to teach our young boys to love themselves! To teach them about black history and that black is beautiful. Remember, black men often suffer from colorism as much as black women do.
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Natasha W,
Finally, I am going to add TWO WORDS IN CAPITAL TO WHAT YOU WROTE…
“At this point I do not see black men as any sort of allies. The few (AS INDIVIDUALS) that care about black women I will support, but gone are the days that I will support black men as a whole”.
Now life is funny, since if I had wrote the aforesaid, you would of come back with the usual repost of ‘hypocrite’, twisting words and so forth.
However, in this instance and considering the nature and direction of our dialogue. Perhaps its better that these words in fact came from you.
Hmmm!!!
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Herneith, I don’t know about Canada, but it is not rare in the U.S. If these black men are not fawning over white women then it is non-black Hispanics and mixed Brazilians (black men in the Northeast in particular love the latter two groups). A black woman is the last resort, and even then she has to have the “right” features.
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J, just quit. I have no interest in discussion with you any longer; we will clearly never agree.
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With regard to:
“My belief concerning black men who REFUSE to love and marry black women, is that these men don’t love and like themselves!
………………………………………………AND ALSO THEIR RACE”
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Misery loves company!
That’s it in a nutshell.
Herneith, I don’t know about Canada, but it is not rare in the U.S. If these black men are not fawning over white women then it is non-black Hispanics and mixed Brazilians (black men in the Northeast in particular love the latter two groups). A black woman is the last resort, and even then she has to have the “right” features.
It exists, but is not as blatant, at least not in my experience. I can’t speak for others, I have not experienced this to a great extent. The experiences I had with these kerchief heads were rare( a few times was enough), however I did see it occur towards others, even so, it was not frequent. So in essence, I am speaking of my own experiences. Most of the black men here are of West Indian descent, and from the African continent. Since many of them are first generation, they tend to marry, date within their own group. The second generation, that’s a different story. More tend to marry, date, outside their group. I hear a lot of young black women starting to complain of the lack of respect they receive from black men. I think this is a product of North American society, with a lot of influence from American society. However, I have noticed that this trend has leveled off. I will emphasize that this is from my perspective and observations, not based on any studies per se.
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Natasha,
I’ve never heard that expression, but it does make sense. There was even a parady about that in an old wayans movie. The black militant was married to a lilly blonde woman. There are others who are guilty, now that I think about it.
There are a lot of commenters who speak of positive reactions to black women abroad but they never mention the black men. I would be curious to see if the bm response is just as positive.
I know there are a lot of African men who are becoming brainwashed.
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I know black people are generally welcomed in my country. It might not be because of the right reasons, but I believe they are welcomed. During the past week, I saw several black guys in the caffés near my place and they were always in the company of local guys. I didn’t see any black women though.
While there are some people in my country who hate foreigners (xenophobia is popular with certain groups these days), I don’t think black men would be seen as different than other foreigners.
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Posting a picture of a handful of white women attending a lynching (or preventing a school from being integrated) and implying that this is somehow representative of white women in general is just an inversion of typical white racist tactics. That’s analogous to a white blogger suggesting that inner city street thugs are the epitome of black America.
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I think (and Abagond can correct me here) the point wasn’t that all white women are like this… But about the stereotype of white women being all gentle, nice, delicate and incapable of doing horrible things. (because they are all polite, nice and delicate).
This stereotype is what makes (some) people believe white women are (or SHOULD be*) less racist- but reality shows it might not be the case.
*Now, I do believe white women should be less racist because they are not the most powerful group and they do know what is like to be discriminated (by sexism). So it could be, in theory, a good starting point for being less racist, because at least they could understand what is like to be seen as inferior, less intelligent/capable just because of a reason you can’t control (gender, race). But in reality, that doesn’t happen- not nearly as often as I’d like it to happen anyway. Actually, the opposite is true: (some) women see themselves as the oppressed group and are absolutely unable to understand they might be oppressors.
I am asking you (all): how many white women (who claim to be feminists) you know who actively support non-white women and their causes?
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In a non-colourblind way, I mean.
I know feminists accept all women, in theory. But in practice, it’s all down to fighting discrimination and problems white women face, or problems white women find the most important. If a non-white woman shares the same problems good. If not, there are not many white feminists who understand.
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@Herneith
Wow, so you are saying that in Canada, the first generation of African and Carribean men marry their own kind but the second generation is different! I was always hoping that these particular groups of men would hold on to their pro-bw attitudes. Being around them can be quite refreshing. Abagond is an example of a strong black man of Carribean heritage. There is a young man on Youtube who does videos that pays tribute to black women. He is half Nigerian so that didn’t surprise me. Well, I agree with you 100% that the American culture, which is very anti-bw, has affected other cultures as well. I hope more black men, regardless of where they come from, will choose to love and celebrate black women. I agree with Island Girl! Once black men stand up for us, the negativity will drop significantly. We have to love and protect one another!
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Wow, so you are saying that in Canada, the first generation of African and Carribean men marry their own kind but the second generation is different!
From my observations, I could be wrong.
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“As someone who lives in an area with nothing but bm/ww ir, I believe that the white women want to be adored. And they find that in a bm. A ww could be way below standards (no offense, but most are obese and not into grooming) and they will find a bm to adore them. Granted, the bm are certainly no prize themselves, but that doesn’t matter, so long as they could feel special.”
Now, Islandgirl, don’t be a hater! That’s not the type of girl you are. I can see that from your photo.
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Not only are they not “less racist”, even those who were “enlightened” (i.e. White feminists) relied on anti-black fears and racist tension to rally support for their “pro women” causes historically.
Women are the carriers of culture. They are usually the first and primary sources of learning for children. You better believe if White society is in fact racist-then White women have a HEAVY hand in it. Consciously or not.
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Natasha,
I’m just glad that you realized that a continued discussion with j is hopeless. The best action to take with people like that is to IGNORE, IGNORE, IGNORE like never before. For all the Bw who still hope that one day black men will be our defenders again (I’m so sorry but i do laugh at this) will die disappointed.
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@ Jeri:
“Wow, so you are saying that in Canada, the first generation of African and Carribean men marry their own kind but the second generation is different! I was always hoping that these particular groups of men would hold on to their pro-bw attitudes. “
This is not a specifically black male phenomenon. You could study any immigrant group in any country, and find the same. The first generation sticks to their own, the second generation assimilates more into the dominant culture.
I would imagine that second generation black immigrant women would also be more likely to marry white Canadians well than the first generation had been.
Also, to look at it from a different perspective, such interracial marriages are an indicator of immigrants being more accepted into mainstream society. Is that a bad thing?
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So true FG. They are once again using history to hide their own insecurities.
Do you really believe that Black women today give a damn about Black men who were lynched when they have so many abortions of Black kids (and Black boys) today?
Do you really think Black women give a damn about Emmitt Till when so many of them are willing and eager to drop their panties to thugs who do the same thing to other Black men today that those White men did to Emmitt Till?
Do you really believe that Black women are “more loyal” than Black men or is it that White men for the most part are not looking for Black women to marry? If White men loved Black women as much as they loved Asian women, their a$$es would be gone faster than you can say Lena Horne.
Do you really believe that it is “beauty standards” holding Black women back or is that they can’t stop shoving their faces full of Fried Chicken and Cheeseburgers? How come “beauty standards” are not holding back the other non-white races of women?
They sit around recycling the same old nasty stereotypes about the appearance White woman who get with Black men, but let someone dare say anything negative about the appearence of a Black woman (her kinky hair, her dark skin, etc.)
They chastise Black men about the “big penis” myth while simultaneously give each other high fives about having a big booty that other women want to emulate (most of they have a big everything).
I can go on and on but you get the point. I know it is not all Black women, but that same reasoning didn’t stop them from painting White women with a broad brush. Black women can dish it out but they can’t take it.
And spare me the uncle tom, White women defender nonsense. This is not about defending White women, this is about attacking Black womens’ neverending insecurity and their desire to constantly whine and complain about the “pedestal” that they perceive White women to be on.
And spare me the “deflection” defense. This is appropriate to this subject. I am tired of modern day Black women hiding behind Emmitt Till and lynching (past and present) when it is clear as day with their actions and behaviors towards Black men that most of them don’t give a damn about anything other than their own selfish, ego-maniacal whims.
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@Truth B Told
And what do those half-baked stereotypes say about the role played by white women in the establishment of a white supremacist system ?
Nothing.
Your main argument , is that black women use history in order to hide their own insecurities. At least , you admit black women have some issues, you would do well by admitting that black women know what they are talking about.
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Truth B Told said:
Do you really think Black women give a damn about Emmitt Till when so many of them are willing and eager to drop their panties to thugs who do the same thing to other Black men today that those White men did to Emmitt Till?
Menelik replies:
the above is but a number of questions posed by the writer which I suspect will NOT be answered! Of course, I could be wrong, and if I am then I’ll be very interested in HOW the question (s) is answered, and the tone in which it is answered.
Menelik Charles
London England
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Natasha said:
Herneith, I don’t know about Canada, but it is not rare in the U.S. If these black men are not fawning over white women then it is non-black Hispanics and mixed Brazilians. A black woman is the last resort, and even then she has to have the “right” features.
Menelik replies:
Natasha, dearest, I think you meant the ‘right’ attitude rather than the “right features”, no?
Menelik Charles
London England
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FG,
Hater? No, this is reality. It is the same scenario over again. Those who refuse to believe it just don’t want to face that black men hold their own black women to a higher standard while others who have nothing to offer get by solely on their color. That’s all.
“Do you really believe that it is “beauty standards” holding Black women back or is that they can’t stop shoving their faces full of Fried Chicken and Cheeseburgers? How come “beauty standards” are not holding back the other non-white races of women?
They sit around recycling the same old nasty stereotypes about the appearance White woman who get with Black men, but let someone dare say anything negative about the appearence of a Black woman (her kinky hair, her dark skin, etc.) ”
You are sterotyping all black women by the above statement. I know PLENTY of attractive black and biracial women who share the same opinions in regards to beauty standards. I am thin but I am not blind to how some bm respond to some black women.
It’s a reality for some black women and people like you know that it’s true, but refuse to admit it.
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Natasha
Co-sign your observations!
Here we go again with the stale ‘hater’, insecurities accusations,LOL, pls give that a rest, I doubt those tactics work anymore.
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And there is another strange phenomenon to all of this which has not been mentioned thus far.
The role of ‘biology’ and ‘sex’.
To what extent this factor of evolution is playing a partie ‘sexual competition’??
There is also another thing to analyse. From what I have seen off the females who castigate Black males more than not usually have the pretext to ‘date White’, which in and off itself would never have been possible, if more Black males were available or so the argument goes. Perhaps this is what was occuring on a sub-conscious level. However, teh structures of society did not make it possible.
So you have Black males moving toward White females, Black females moving toward White males. And the system, remains ‘unchallenged’ because as we have seen by way of reference here that some Black women do not want men as allies – and also vice versa off course
Hmmm!!!
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Merrimay said:
Natasha
Co-sign your observations!
Here we go again with the stale ‘hater’, insecurities accusations,LOL, pls give that a rest, I doubt those tactics work anymore.
Menelik replied:
then simply ignore them; that means NO co-signing, NO conflict and NO acknowledgement of any kind. I ignore you. Please continue to return the favour.
Thanks
MC
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Menelik,
You are asking for too much methinks.
This is why I had suggested for teh longest time this is why I ‘liked’ NS comments to a large degree
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@ J,
with respect, I have no idea what you are talking about or referring too; please enlighten me.
Thanks
Menelik Charles
London England
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I am saying on a chatboard you very rarely people speaking the ‘truth’.
People will rather co-sign and support each other in defence of their own ‘egos’, rather than what appears to be the ‘facts’ and/or ‘truth’.
With regard to NS, I felt he was one of those who did speak openly and frankly – irrespective of whether I and/or the board did not like his style
Hope this has clarified – unless I misunderstood your very point, and if that is the case then do excuse me.
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“Truth” B Told
One doesn’t need to refer to emit till to know that white women are placed on a pedestal by everyone, especially some insecure black men. Even WHITE people are starting to acknowledge this shit. Google “missing white woman syndrome”, and you’ll know that there are very REAL advantages to being White and female.
Now add Black men, insecure about their racial identity and in need of external validation of their value/self worth. Add economic upward mobility. The result is Black men with higher income desperate to marry anyone white OR white-ish.
You can talk about black women being fat and greedy, well that’s just America. And guess what? Despite the fact that White America has more stringent requirements for women when it comes to weight, morbidly obese white women still manage to get married at higher rates than their black counterparts. Sometimes to the same black men complaining about Black women and cheeseburgers. Think I’m lying? Look at this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1257850/Super-sized-mother-determined-worlds-fattest-woman-years.html
Apparently being fat (like most of America) hasn’t hurt the wedding industry.
So no, I don’t get your point. I do know that usually Black men who are the most defensive about this REALITY, are the ones who are the biggest culprits. These same guys are ready to complain that racism is STILL a big ass problem in society and they suffer because of it, but can’t acknowledge that race and gender intersects in a way that affects Black women differently, and in some ways more harshly, than Black men. AND sometimes, black men subscribe to that thinking. “Black male privilege” is what it’s called.
And don’t get me started on the latest negro to attack black women on a public platform (Slim thug)…
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J,
From what I have seen off the females who castigate Black males more than not usually have the pretext to ‘date White’, which in and off itself would never have been possible, if more Black males were available or so the argument goes. Perhaps this is what was occuring on a sub-conscious level. However, teh structures of society did not make it possible.
That’s the stereotype, but not necessarily the reality. Greater numbers of Black women are living and working in environments in which it would be nearly a miracle if they dated a Black guy, just based on numbers. Just look at colleges and universities–unless you are going to an HBCU there just aren’t very many. (And I say this as someone at a university that’s >2% Black.) Even at HBCUs, there are reports that many of the men a) aren’t interested in relationships or b) are only interested in dating light/non-White girls. And then there’s the issue of athletes, which it’s best to avoid if you want a relationship.
The most Black guys I ever had hit on me in life was my Freshman year of college, oddly when I already had a (Black) boyfriend. Between the time we broke up and I started dating my current boyfriend, I don’t think a single Black dude asked me on a date (catcalling obviously doesn’t count). I attribute that to numbers, not a fault on the part of the Black guys I know at school, since I’m friends with many of them.
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Cheers Jasmin,
However, even in the absence of ‘available Black males’ in the US.
It is still a valid question to raise nonetheless, ‘the choice of partner’.
There are a few websites that I have noticed that seem to cater for White Caucasian males for Black women.
Considering that there is a shortage of Black males. Then as I said before somewhere on this blog. You would expect to find the ladies going for the ‘best’ type of male, irrespective of race/origins.
What tends to happen is that Caucasian White is preferably the first choice.
And if that is the case – then it is a valid question to raise.
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Kindly stop telling me what to do, I do not know you from a can of paint. Only the moderator Abagond has a say in what goes.
For someone who ignores, lol, why on earth did YOU respond to my comments that were not directed at you in the first place?? the mind boggles, lol, seems contradictions are rife here! Why go to all the trouble?
I was agreeing with Natasha’s good points.
I wonder who is really starting conflict here, SMDH
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That comment was for Menelik.
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J,
Well, now you are talking about something different. In my statement about numbers, the quality of guys wasn’t an issue. All things being equal (between guys of different races), there will be more “quality” White guys than Black guys, at least in my case, since the Black guys are less than 1% of the school population (we have more females), and the White guys are at least 35%. Unless someone says (or indicates in other ways), “I think White guys are better than Black guys” (or vice versa), the connection between choice of partner and assessment of quality is a faulty one.
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Tragicmulattos,
That was my point. People complain about black women being large, but where I’m from, white women who are large and even obese don’t have problems finding a black man. Different rules apply. Though these black men are not desirable (drug dealers, unkempt, lazy and lives on the ww who work or is on welfare, has several of different kids with several of different mothers), they even think they are above black women who are larger.
Your blog is very interesting and honest, btw. That Slim Thug comment was disgusting, but it is a very good representation of how those types of black men think.
No one should deny that ww are valued more as a whole. The “missing white woman syndrome” confirms that.
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@TruthB Told
How dare you imply that black women don’t care about Emmet Till!!!! When I was a child, I saw a picture of Emmet Till’s bloated body lying in a casket. This poor child was brutally murdered for whistling at a white woman and he was TORTURED for it. I almost cried when I saw the picture. He look so much like my younger brothers. I never forgot his story! And my heart grieved for his mother! Many black women lost their sons, brothers, and fathers to lynching and you have the audacity to say that the black women of today don’t care. Many black women are still losing their sons to violence and, like the women of yesterday, they are grieving over the lost of their sons. Then you say we love the gangsters that killed our children!!! I have never been with any kind of ganster!! I HATE abortion and I think it is an abomination!!!
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@Truth B Told
You are example of a sick twisted individual who love your white women so much that you would malign your own grandmothers, greatgrandmothers and your other female ancestors who went through HELL as result of lynchings and other forms of violence. I don’t have a problem with interracial relationships but to attack black women and imply that they don’t have love for the innocent men who died by violence is incomprehensible! It was black women, like Ida B Wells, who fought for black men when they were being lynched, often risking their own lives. Yeah, read your history! Look Ida B. Wells up! You know, I have been interested in interracial relationships. I have been attracted to white men and some have approached me. But I don’t attack black men and spew all sorts of hatred on them. I don’t put white men on such a pedestal, that I am incapable of loving and respecting black men!
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@Truth B Told
I believe that if you are interested in being with someone of another race, it should be in spite of his/her color not BECAUSE of his/her color. Because when it boils down to it, we all human beings created by God. Race doesn’t mean anything. Race is all in the mind rather you believe it or not. Anytime when you are with a person, it should be because you love the person within, not exclusively their race or looks. Which is why some black women object to black men’s attitude about white women and other lightskinned women. Some believe that is all black men’s obsession with skin color. That when they see a black women, they see a stereotype, and aren’t receptive to really getting to know her as a HUMAN BEING. And what you just said, proved that many black women are right!
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I meant to say that some black women believe that this is all about black men’s obsession with skin color!
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@Truth B Told
And as for your remark about black women stuffing their face with cheeseburgers, I see a WHOLE lot of white women who are overweight everyday!!! Obesity is an American problem, not a black women problem. This is a fat nation. Period. It is that black men make it an issue whenever they want to look for an excuse to diss black women. But these same black men will date a heavy set white women!
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Mira,
I am asking you (all): how many white women (who claim to be feminists) you know who actively support non-white women and their causes?”
Not many. This is why black women initially rejected the idea of feminism. Feminists in the past and today contunue to ignore the struggles of black women; they consider that only “one” issue can be tackled at a time and the unique intersection of racism and sexism that black women face is just not their problem. You can read more here:
http://www.womanist-musings.com/2010/04/i-not-feminist-and-there-is-no-but.html
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islandgirl,
“Hater? No, this is reality. It is the same scenario over again. Those who refuse to believe it just don’t want to face that black men hold their own black women to a higher standard while others who have nothing to offer get by solely on their color. That’s all.”
Don’t mind FG. He is just butthurt because he has a white mother and a black father; your comment probably struck a nerve. Obviously you are not a “hater” — that is a tired label for anyone that tells the reality of their experiences, and that of many others. Abagond and mynameismyname, two black males, made the same observation about the black man/white woman dynamic. Are they haters too?
There is nothing to hate on; you are a beautiful woman and they are what? Miss Piggy’s long lost sisters? Seriously, some observations are just that.
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And as I’ve seen it, Natasha, this is traditionally how many white feminists undermine their own movements. By focusing almost myopically on the white-and-middle-class, they make their activism appear more like a personal tantrum than a true people’s movement. They lose and the women they’ve alienated lose.
As a white woman, I feel it would be inappropriate to call myself a womanist but I think it would be interesting (and far more effective) if there could be some kind of women’s movement reform involving women of all classes and colors. Unfortunately, the leaders of the feminist movement just don’t seem interested enough.
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tragicmulattos,
“Not only are they not “less racist”, even those who were “enlightened” (i.e. White feminists) relied on anti-black fears and racist tension to rally support for their “pro women” causes historically.
Women are the carriers of culture. They are usually the first and primary sources of learning for children. You better believe if White society is in fact racist-then White women have a HEAVY hand in it. Consciously or not.“
Thank you for bringing sense to this matter.
caridad,
“Natasha,
I’m just glad that you realized that a continued discussion with j is hopeless. The best action to take with people like that is to IGNORE, IGNORE, IGNORE like never before. For all the Bw who still hope that one day black men will be our defenders again (I’m so sorry but i do laugh at this) will die disappointed.”
You are right. Sometimes I get the urge to help others understand how wrong they are in their conclusions and behaviors, especially when said conclusions and behaviors are hurtful to themselves and others. But I think now — it is good! Let these black men continue to spew their garbage on black women. It will only open the eyes of more black women, who will soon not bother with them at all. And then where will black men be? They won’t exist of course, because black women make create men, in every sense possible.
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Oh, I see BS. B. Told is back. Welcome! I knew it would only be a matter of time before you arrived; whenever a chance comes to spread BS about black women, you never miss the opportunity. I guess that’s why you’ve been blacklisted all over the blogosphere — people know your act and they know it is BS. At least we have to give you credit for the sake of this post. Your wife isn’t white, she’s Asian!
“They sit around recycling the same old nasty stereotypes about the appearance White woman who get with Black men, but let someone dare say anything negative about the appearence of a Black woman (her kinky hair, her dark skin, etc.)”
Right. Kinky hair and dark skin are the bane of your existence as a black man, eh? S’okay, just hope your daughter doesn’t look like you.
“Do you really believe that it is “beauty standards” holding Black women back or is that they can’t stop shoving their faces full of Fried Chicken and Cheeseburgers? How come “beauty standards” are not holding back the other non-white races of women?”
Let’s try that again, with stereotypes of black men, shall we?
Do you really believe that it is “white racism” holding Black men back or is that they can’t stop shooting each other and dealing drugs? How come “white racism” is not holding back the other non-white races of men?
This game is fun. Let’s all stereotype are hearts out.
“Do you really think Black women give a damn about Emmitt Till when so many of them are willing and eager to drop their panties to thugs who do the same thing to other Black men today that those White men did to Emmitt Till?”
“I am tired of modern day Black women hiding behind Emmitt Till and lynching (past and present) when it is clear as day with their actions and behaviors towards Black men that most of them don’t give a damn about anything other than their own selfish, ego-maniacal whims”
Oh, I see it is perfectly fine for you to rehash history but it is a crime for black women to make any mention of it? Another hypocrite to join J.
But tell me, who are these “thugs” you are talking about? Black men, I take it? Oh, okay. 😉
I can see you are still making the tired, foolish claims you always make. Until next time, my yellow-fever having brethen!
————————
Menelik,
“Natasha, dearest, I think you meant the ‘right’ attitude rather than the “right features”, no?”
No, I meant exactly what I said.
[To MerriMay]“then simply ignore them; that means NO co-signing, NO conflict and NO acknowledgement of any kind. I ignore you. Please continue to return the favour.”
MerriMay can cosign whatever statements of mine she wants. The same way you can, and do, cosign BS. B. Told’s. And you are clearly not ignoring her by responding to her statements.
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Natasha,
The key is to just put it out there and walk away knowing you spoke the truth. Some people don’t see it because “it” is “them”.
Islandgirl,
Thanks for the props on my blog (full of grammatical errors and all)! I just rant here and there, and I’m glad somebody can see a line of truth in it. As I say on my blog, I’m not against the biracialism, but the trend of constructing an identity based on the “evil/mean” black people rhetoric is lame. And Black people need to start recognizing it when we see/hear it.
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^tragicmulattos, I know it.
M.,
“And as I’ve seen it, Natasha, this is traditionally how many white feminists undermine their own movements. By focusing almost myopically on the white-and-middle-class, they make their activism appear more like a personal tantrum than a true people’s movement. They lose and the women they’ve alienated lose.”
Feminism isn’t all bad and it’s clear all women owe much to the movemnt. But it’s also clear it addresses only some of the issues that non-white women and working class women face.
“As a white woman, I feel it would be inappropriate to call myself a womanist but I think it would be interesting (and far more effective) if there could be some kind of women’s movement reform involving women of all classes and colors. Unfortunately, the leaders of the feminist movement just don’t seem interested enough.”
I tend to think womanists are inclusive of other groups as well. At least, most womanist pieces address issues besides those having to do with black women.
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And what do those half-baked stereotypes say about the role played by white women in the establishment of a white supremacist system ?
Everything.
It exposes the insincerity, the hypocrisy and the self-servedness of some.
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“Don’t mind FG. He is just butthurt because he has a white mother and a black father; your comment probably struck a nerve. Obviously you are not a “hater” — that is a tired label for anyone that tells the reality of their experiences, and that of many others. Abagond and mynameismyname, two black males, made the same observation about the black man/white woman dynamic. Are they haters too?
There is nothing to hate on; you are a beautiful woman and they are what? Miss Piggy’s long lost sisters? Seriously, some observations are just that.”
Well, I don’t think the stereotypes you’re propagating are accurate. They may apply in some cases but not most. If you notice, I’ve never framed entire groups in a negative light. I have noted that there are tendencies that occur in certain populations that form a basis of stereotypes about them but have always been careful to note that these behavioral patterns are not uniform or even widespread within said populations.
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@Natasha,
Also, you’ve made contradictory statements about the white women who marry black men. When I mentioned the data indicating elevated IQ scores for the mixed kids of white women, you suggested the results were due to disproportionately high education among the parents. Now you’re insinuating that these women are low class. What is it?
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FG,
“If you notice, I’ve never framed entire groups in a negative light.”
Nope, you’ve only always just cast whites in a positive light.
Well, I think the stereotypes you’re propagating are accurate. They may apply in most cases.
Fixed your statement!
“Also, you’ve made contradictory statements about the white women who marry black men. When I mentioned the data indicating elevated IQ scores for the mixed kids of white women, you suggested the results were due to disproportionately high education among the parents. Now you’re insinuating that these women are low class. What is it?
No, I said the white women of that time had more education. Seeing as black people in general were not allowed much education and what education they had was unequal, it isn’t difficult to understand the effect this would have on future generations, especially with mothers, as the first teachers of their children.
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tragicmullato,
You’re welcome! Yes, I assessed that you weren’t speaking against biracialism as a whole. That would be wrong. But were highlighting and reinforcing what most know is true, but are apprehensive to say.
Natasha,
Thank you! The last thing that I thought I would be accused of is being a hater. I know that some of the men on this board have an agenda or a guilt of seeing themselves in some of the comments that are made here. I wasn’t familar with “truth”btold until now, but it’s obvious if he is on other blogs expressing negativity toward black women, there is an issue there.
One thing that I notice, in general, is that SOME black men in ir allow themselves and identities to get absorbed into that. That’s weak. Instead of just appreciating the differences, they go a step further and are hateful toward the women that brought them into the world. Black women seem to be better able to keep their identies and BRING their culture into the relationship, not be absorbed by it.
BTW, where are all of the black men on this topic? Because all we hearing from are seemingly self-hating men who will say anything to deflect their own issues.
FG,
Did I not say that this is what I noticed “where I’M from”? I wasn’t speaking in general terms. No one can tell me differently, because I see this everyday. And, trust me, “others” notice too.
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“No, I said the white women of that time had more education. Seeing as black people in general were not allowed much education and what education they had was unequal, it isn’t difficult to understand the effect this would have on future generations, especially with mothers, as the first teachers of their children.”
But you’re saying that white women of mixed kids are low class in an absolute sense. That’s not at all consistent with an average IQ of 104 for their kids whether they had more education or not.
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Oh, I see BS. B. Told is back.
Typical. Instead of having an honest discussion nothing but ad hominem attacks. I wish I could be disappointed but I expected it.
Welcome! I knew it would only be a matter of time before you arrived; whenever a chance comes to spread BS about black women, you never miss the opportunity. I guess that’s why you’ve been blacklisted all over the blogosphere — people know your act and they know it is BS.
I have only been blacklisted on Black women blogs who like you can’t handle the truths that I mention. It balances out as Black women are being blacklisted in the real world by men who see the realities as they are, which is why so many Black women complain about finding partners.
What BS am I spreading? Black women don’t abort babies? Black women don’t ever date thugs?
At least we have to give you credit for the sake of this post. Your wife isn’t white, she’s Asian!
I don’t have a wife, and if I did, what would her race have to do with anything?
Right. Kinky hair and dark skin are the bane of your existence as a black man, eh? S’okay, just hope your daughter doesn’t look like you.
No, I am not the one complaining about people not finding me attractive. There are plenty of people who don’t find me attractive for a variety of reasons, but I live and let live. I don’t go around trying to shame them into it. Hopefully any future daughters I have will respect themselves the same.
Let’s try that again, with stereotypes of black men, shall we?
Do you really believe that it is “white racism” holding Black men back or is that they can’t stop shooting each other and dealing drugs? How come “white racism” is not holding back the other non-white races of men?
No strawmen please. I am no Black male apologist anymore than I am a Black female apologist.
This game is fun. Let’s all stereotype are hearts out.
That was already happening before I showed up.
Oh, I see it is perfectly fine for you to rehash history but it is a crime for black women to make any mention of it? Another hypocrite to join J.
I am not rehashing history, I am pointing out the malignant abuse of it.
But tell me, who are these “thugs” you are talking about? Black men, I take it? Oh, okay.
Yes, some Black men are thugs. Is this supposed to be a shock?
I can see you are still making the tired, foolish claims you always make. Until next time, my yellow-fever having brethen!
Typical Black women insecurity. I have an Asian girlfriend (which is totally irrelevant to my point of Black women hiding behind history and race) and therefore I must have yellow fever (another ad hominem attack). It’s as if a Black man can’t have a diverse dating history. Black men either gotta love a woman that looks like Alek Wek or Precious or we have mental issues. Spare me.
And this is coming from a woman who has no problem identifying how many White women feel about Black men, but has no problem having a White SO, even though many White men agree with the John Mayers, the Don Imuses, and the Dog the Bounty Hunters of the world.
I almost feel sorry for the Black men of the world who buy into the “loyalty” and the guilt and shame BS that Black women try to spin on them.
Better them than me, LOL.
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“Did I not say that this is what I noticed “where I’M from”? I wasn’t speaking in general terms. No one can tell me differently, because I see this everyday. And, trust me, “others” notice too.”
Maybe it’s because the area you live in is low status in general.
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No, I’m not from a low status area and I’m definetly not low status. My area is well status with professionals. We have all types of people, just like anywhere else. BUT I DO notice that the low status people are the ones that I speak of.
truthbtold,
Believe it or not, white women are just as insecure (SOME) if not more. Especially faced with a situation where they are not noticed or the treasured one. I’ve experienced and heard the catty remarks by some when white men (or black for that matter) approach. I know it’s hard for you to believe, but all women can be insecure.
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*meant my area is well off.
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Okay, let’s get some hard numbers on this rather than rely on the prejudices of bigots like Natasha:
Click to access MR%20KIDS%207.1.08.pdf
On page 35, it is documented that the mothers of mixed kids are more likely to be a college graduate than the mothers of white kids and the mothers of black kids.
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Natasha’s major problem is that she’s an African who wants to be white. White women need to be pushed aside so that she can marry into the white world.
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How dare you imply that black women don’t care about Emmet Till!!!! When I was a child, I saw a picture of Emmet Till’s bloated body lying in a casket. This poor child was brutally murdered for whistling at a white woman and he was TORTURED for it. I almost cried when I saw the picture. He look so much like my younger brothers. I never forgot his story! And my heart grieved for his mother! Many black women lost their sons, brothers, and fathers to lynching and you have the audacity to say that the black women of today don’t care. Many black women are still losing their sons to violence and, like the women of yesterday, they are grieving over the lost of their sons. Then you say we love the gangsters that killed our children!!! I have never been with any kind of ganster!! I HATE abortion and I think it is an abomination!!!
I believe that many Black people today (men and women) don’t really care about history except when they can use it as a weapon. It is not only a Black woman thing, but since the main culprits on this blog that is what I was addressing.
Just as you are opposed to abortion and gangsters, some White women were opposed to slavery and lynching, but that did not stop this thread from painting them with the same brush. Which was the point of my post.
You are example of a sick twisted individual who love your white women so much that you would malign your own grandmothers, greatgrandmothers and your other female ancestors who went through HELL as result of lynchings and other forms of violence. I don’t have a problem with interracial relationships but to attack black women and imply that they don’t have love for the innocent men who died by violence is incomprehensible! It was black women, like Ida B Wells, who fought for black men when they were being lynched, often risking their own lives. Yeah, read your history! Look Ida B. Wells up! You know, I have been interested in interracial relationships. I have been attracted to white men and some have approached me. But I don’t attack black men and spew all sorts of hatred on them. I don’t put white men on such a pedestal, that I am incapable of loving and respecting black men!
I had this discussion last time. I am not speaking anything negative about Blacks who actually went through the pain and suffering, my comments are about modern day Blacks who see to use that suffering for their own selfish ends.
And I don’t love white women or spanish women or light-skinned women. I, like most healthy heterosexual men in this world like attractive women, regardless of race. It is unfortunate that too many dark-skin women continue to see this as an affront to themselves.
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Cheers Jasmin,
Just to say my point has been the same all along, it is your interpretation and understanding which differed (perhaps its the way I worded it that may have also created the confusion).
I still think it is a valid argument nonetheless.
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“Typical. Instead of having an honest discussion nothing but ad hominem attacks. I wish I could be disappointed but I expected it.”
Nothing but ad hominem would be fitting for your BS, sir!
“I don’t have a wife.”
Wife, girlfriend, f*ckbuddy, whatever. I can’t remember every detail of you self-loathers’ lives.
“I have only been blacklisted on Black women blogs”
You’ve been blacklisted on way more than blogs owned by black women, tell the truth! Isn’t that what you do? Or is that you are so lacking in perspective that you think every blog with black female commenters is run by black women?
“There are plenty of people who don’t find me attractive for a variety of reasons”
Could it be your ridiculous habit of berating any person who disagrees with your warped mentality?
“Hopefully any future daughters I have will respect themselves the same.”
You should hope you can respect her. But seeing as she will be black and female, I wouldn’t bet on it.
“No strawmen please. I am no Black male apologist anymore than I am a Black female apologist.”
That’s irrelevant to the matter. You are a black male. Thus the statement applies to you, just like the statement you made about cheeseburgers applies to every black female, apparently.
And I know you are not a black apologist. You’re an anything-but-black apologist.
“Typical Black women insecurity.”
Clearly black women are the only ones with insecurities!
Get real, BS. B. Told, you’re riddled with insecurities, whether you’re conscious of it or not.
“I have an Asian girlfriend (which is totally irrelevant to my point of Black women hiding behind history and race) and therefore I must have yellow fever.”
Just admit it. Yellow probably looks good on you!
“It’s as if a Black man can’t have a diverse dating history.”
Black men can screw whomever they want. But they should not (1) Not take potshots at black women simply because they are with a non-white woman and (2) pretend as if said non-white woman is any better than their own mothers, daughters, and other relatives. Unless of course they are self-loathers, like yourself.
“And this is coming from a woman who has no problem identifying how many White women feel about Black men, but has no problem having a White SO, even though many White men agree with the John Mayers, the Don Imuses, and the Dog the Bounty Hunters of the world.”
Is this the best you can do? This statement doesn’t phase me in the slightest. I couldn’t care less, actually.
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^To BS. B. Told.
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Natasha’s major problem is that she’s an African who wants to be white. White women need to be pushed aside so that she can marry into the white world.”
Wow, FG, this an amazingly idiotic statement, even from you.
Nay, sir, you are the only one who wishes to be white here. Anyone can look through your comments history and see this is the case. Or shall I pull it up for you seeing as you seem to be having a fit of amnesia?
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Natasha W.
With regard to:
“Oh, I see it is perfectly fine for you to rehash history but it is a crime for black women to make any mention of it? Another hypocrite to join J”.
Not kind of sure what this means, or even the need to draw me in.
Be that as it may…
You have said yourself stated unequivocally that you have no time for Blacks as a Group, presumably African-Americans only in the US.
And at the same time you are not willing to outright ‘ and disassociate yourself from African countries (with its poverty, famine wars, mistreatment of women etc), and ultimately here I must presume thereby African men on the continent.
Are you sure you have a proper grasp of this word ‘hypocrite’ that you keep using towards me??
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Since my other reply is in moderation:
“Natasha’s major problem is that she’s an African who wants to be white. White women need to be pushed aside so that she can marry into the white world.”
Wow, FG, this an amazingly ignorant statement, even from you.
Nay, sir, you are the only one who wishes to be white here. Anyone can look through your comments history and see this is the case. Or shall I pull it up for you seeing as you seem to be having a fit of amnesia?
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And further that you yourself are in an IRR, to all intense and purposes defending White males on this thread, whilst castigating Black males (presumably African Americans)previously, but not African males on the continent either…
All this sounds hypocritical to me….
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FG, tragic mulatto that you are, get this through your head:
A IQ of 104 is merely average and is the average of a high school graduate. Please don’t pretend that it is something to give a cheering ovation for.
And for the love of all that’s good and sane, stop talking about biracial and mixed kids. No one cares. Take that to mulatto.org or somewhere else, but it’s reaching off-topic here.
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@Truth B. Told
The subject of this post is rather white women are less prone to be racist than white men. You said that you are sure that there were white women who fought against racism. I never said that there weren’t white women who fought against. There were also WHITE MEN who fought against racism. So what is your point! The point most of us were making is that there were many white women who supported and were a part of the racist system that existed and still do exist in this country. If you look at those pictures that Abagond posted, there were quite a few white women in it. Not just white men. Alot of black men want to let the white women who were and still are a racist off the hook because of their obsession with interracial dating. I like all types of men myself. I am a normal heterosexual female. But I am not foolish enough to believe that there aren’t any racist white men!
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@Truth B Told
People like you are emotionally immature. You marry someone of another race and now, all black women are bad because you happened to find happiness with someone of another race. Now, black women suddenly don’t care about the deaths of thousands of black men who were lynched. I care alot. Ever since I was a child, I cared. I read the black history books and seeing black men hanging on trees broke my heart! But you don’t want to hear this because now you got yourself a non-black woman. Why can’t you just be happy with your woman and leave it at that. No. You are like alot of black men AND women who suddenly can’t love black people because they are in an interracial relationship. It makes it so obvious that people like you hate your own kind. Not all people who are in interracial relationships are like this. Just people like you!!!!
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I’ll try one more time
Alot of black men want to let the white women who were and still are a racist off the hook because of their obsession with interracial dating. I like all types of men myself. I am a normal heterosexual female. But I am not foolish enough to believe that there aren’t any racist white men!
Black men are not foolish enough to believe the same thing either. That is my point and that is my problem with the thread.
Black men know that there are some racist White women in the world, nobody is letting them off the hook. However, just like you, and just like Natasha and her SO, that doesn’t mean that they are going to avoid ALL White women, which is what the underlying tone of is of this conversation.
This conversation has little to nothing to do with White racism or White supremacy and everything to do with Black female insecurity.
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@TRuth B Told
Do you think you are the only person that has been in a interracial relationship? I used to spend quite alot of time with a young man called David when I was in college. He was white by the way. We spent alot of time together. He was a very beautiful person and I love him to this day! But when I was interacting with this person, I didn’t suddenly hate black men. It didn’t even cross my mind to disrespect black men during this time. My love for this man was sincere! Not based on some interracial fetish! He was kind, intelligent, and very attractive! I didn’t see his color, just his love! Do you understand what I am saying! I hope you do. Now imagine if I had married David, and after a few years of being happy in this relationship, I decide to become arrogant and start dissing black men. Wouldn’t that be immature on my part? Well, that is what you are doing!!
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Since when did abagond become a black female?
Sorry, “Truth,” not everything has to do with black women and their imagined or real insecurities.
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“Wow, FG, this an amazingly ignorant statement, even from you.
Nay, sir, you are the only one who wishes to be white here. Anyone can look through your comments history and see this is the case. Or shall I pull it up for you seeing as you seem to be having a fit of amnesia?”
No, I’ve expressed ambivalence over the racial identity issue. What I’ve unambiguously favored is the end of the one drop rule, the foundation for the US’s highly polarized racial system that has often treated racially ambiguous people very roughly over the years. I have expressed admiration for parts of Euro-American culture, but at the same time have noted its racist tendencies. I’ve also criticized parts of the African American culture, but admire aspects of it as well. Maybe I’ll discuss that on another thread in the future. I’ve never badmouthed any race/gender combination as you have.
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@TRuth B Told
No one is saying that all white women are evil! What we are saying is that there were many white women who participated in a racist system and still do. That is it! If we were talking about WHITE MEN who were racist, something tells me you wouldn’t be so concerned with defending white men. Many black men are like this. That is the point many of us are making!
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People like you are emotionally immature. You marry someone of another race and now, all black women are bad because you happened to find happiness with someone of another race. Now, black women suddenly don’t care about the deaths of thousands of black men who were lynched. I care alot. Ever since I was a child, I cared. I read the black history books and seeing black men hanging on trees broke my heart! But you don’t want to hear this because now you got yourself a non-black woman. Why can’t you just be happy with your woman and leave it at that. No. You are like alot of black men AND women who suddenly can’t love black people because they are in an interracial relationship. It makes it so obvious that people like you hate your own kind. Not all people who are in interracial relationships are like this. Just people like you!!!!
You should re-read my original post. I will qoute a highlight
I know it is not all Black women, but that same reasoning didn’t stop them from painting White women with a broad brush. Black women can dish it out but they can’t take it.
This thread is riddled with generaliztions and stereotypes about other groups (Black men and White women), yet when someone makes generalizations about Black women it is “hate” or “self-hate”. Even when I qualified my comment with it didn’t spare me from the onslaught. Par for the course.
And my personal life has nothing to do with this conversation nor should it have ever been brought up, except it was by a woman who knows she is completely defeated if she attempts to refute the merits of my arguments and therefore must rely on ad hominem attacks.
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Forgive me for the interjection.
I agree with FG (for only the second time) but I would refer to it as ‘loathing’, but it is of a different kind
This ‘loathing’ is directed specifically at African American males. There seems to be no reference to those who are Africans.
Furthermore I would add that there is an animosity toward White females, all I can do is presume those within US. However, there does not appear to be the same animosity toward ‘White males’ presumably and in my own opinion for personal and vested reasons
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@Truth B Told
Wait a minute. You are saying that black women are telling black men to avoid ALL white women because they are racist? Who said that? All I am saying is that some white women can be racist. Period. And that many black men bash black women, many of whom have supported them like their own mothers, while letting white women completely off the hook, knowing that many of these women have done their share of terrible things! There was a saying that black men made in the 60’s and 70’s. ” A black man’s foes are the black women and the white man” This was around the time when blacks were still suffering heavily from obvious forms of racism. All I am saying is that this obsession with putting white women on a pedestal comes from self hatred and a hatred of your own people. That is it.
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FG,
“I’ve never badmouthed any race/gender combination as you have.”
I criticize everyone; I’m analytical like that. But really, it’s only because I love them.. 😉
———————
“Truth,”
Rhe merit of your statements? Ha! I was just laughing when I saw you commented because I know that’s what you spend your life doing; commenting on blogs about how insecure black women are.
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No one is saying that all white women are evil! What we are saying is that there were many white women who participated in a racist system and still do. That is it! If we were talking about WHITE MEN who were racist, something tells me you wouldn’t be so concerned with defending white men. Many black men are like this. That is the point many of us are making!
Your point proves my point. You see me as defending White women when I am not. I am attacking the insecurity of Black women and their insincere use of history to try to control Black men.
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*The
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I was just laughing when I saw you commented because I know that’s what you spend your life doing; commenting on blogs about how insecure black women are.
More ad hominem nonsense. Yawn.
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@Truth B Told
Nobody is trying to use history to control black men! We are accusing black men of quickly dismissing the terrrible actions of some white women while consistently bashing black women. White women can do no harm and black women can do no good! That is what many of us are saying!
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Menelik replies:
the above is but a number of questions posed by the writer which I suspect will NOT be answered! Of course, I could be wrong, and if I am then I’ll be very interested in HOW the question (s) is answered, and the tone in which it is answered.
The early returns have pretty much proven you correct.
Now I am going to log off so Natasha can think I have a life away from commenting on blogs, LOL.
Later
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“Truth,”
“More ad hominem nonsense. Yawn.”
Heh. I’m sure you find attacking black women all day much more entertaining. I have to give you some credit — you’re a tenacious one!
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“Now I am going to log off so Natasha can think I have a life away from commenting on blogs, LOL.”
Balderdash! You clearly don’t! You probably spend your offline life disparaging black women too.
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Truth B Told said:
Do you really think Black women give a damn about Emmitt Till when so many of them are willing and eager to drop their panties to thugs who do the same thing to other Black men today that those White men did to Emmitt Till?
Jeri replied:
How dare you imply that black women don’t care about Emmet Till!!!! When I was a child, I saw a picture of Emmet Till’s bloated body lying in a casket. This poor child was brutally murdered for whistling at a white woman and he was TORTURED for it. I almost cried when I saw the picture. He look so much like my younger brothers. I never forgot his story!
Menelik replies:
how dare you imply truth B Told was referring specifically to you!!! Keep in mind you are Black womAn singular, while the Bro was referring to Black womEn plural: did you not see that?
Menelik Charles
London England
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@Menelik Charles
Why would you or Truth B Told assume that most black women don’t care about the lynchings of black men? Where is this coming from!! It is an assumption! Not a fact! Have you talked to black women and did they tell you they didn’t care? That is what I am saying!!!! Another man dissing black women!!! Well, let me tell you something. Most of the black women I know work hard to love and protect the black men in their lives. Rather the black males are their sons, husbands, or brothers, whatever. I see it everyday. That is my experience!!So why would we not care about black men who died in the past? You black men should be grateful to the black women who did stand up for you when nobody else would!
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Menelik,
[To Jeri]“Keep in mind you are Black womAn singular, while the Bro was referring to Black womEn plural: did you not see that?”
Huh? If she is a black woman, she is included by default in the aggregate of black women unless specified otherwise.
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@Natasha W
HaHa! You are too real!!
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Camille said:
It’s rather disheartening to see all these men of color defending white women.
Menelik replies:
can you please quote one sentence or produce a single paragraph in which “men of color” are “defending” white women?
Good luck!
Menelik Charles
London England
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Menelik, come on. I’d thought you were one of those black men who could see outside of their own perspective and understand the reality of statements. You’ve disappointed me this post. 😦
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I don’t know how this discussion turned to debating the shortcomings of black women, and I don’t care. I’m not discussing it. Not meaning to deride the undoubtedly well-thought out comments on that subject, but it just seems way too typical to me. There’s already a LOT of talk about the shortcomings of black women, not only in the black community, but now in the mainstream/white media as well. How does a discussion about white women turn into a black woman bash, time after time?
I agree with what TragicMullatos said about white women being the carriers of culture. They are the social gatekeepers for white America. They often instigate racist incidents, perhaps as a way to solidify their position with the dominant group, the white men. My best friend married a white man and his mother made her life hell. When it came to anything social, the wedding, potential grandchildren, family gatherings, religious meetings, ANYTHING, the mother and her family were right there making things difficult and making my friend the outsider at the table. My best friend’s husband left her and has married a woman who would be much lower on the totem pole if not for racism, but she’s white so his mother is happy.
And the white women who are supposed to be non-racist, the feminists, they can be the worst. I wrote a thesis on the topic of racism in the modern third-wave feminist movement. They don’t even see us. Black women pioneered feminism, and to this day ought to be leading the movement, but they continue to be marginalized. As Natasha said, this is why so many identify as womanists.
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Natasha said:
Menelik,
[To Jeri] “Keep in mind you are Black womAn singular, while the Bro was referring to Black womEn plural: did you not see that?”
Huh? If she is a black woman, she is included by default in the aggregate of black women unless specified otherwise.
Menelik replies:
stop talking nonsense! Jeri referred to herself! Because I’m a fan of the writer, Alice Miller, does that mean I can therefore generalise my interest to thousands or even millions of other Black men?
It makes no sense, woman! Jeri referred to herself, and how she alone felt about the Emmitt Till case. Certainly, some Black people take Black History seriously: most don’t, which is why we’re in this mess today.
Menelik Charles
London England
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@ Natasha W,
I have no idea what you are talking about.
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I spend a lot of time on certain “progressive” blogs. Many of the ones run by white men are pretty racist. The ones run by women pay lip service to anti-racism. But when confronted with their own racism they are the first to try to quash the discussion. The men will argue about it, the women will close comments and ban people. This just happened a few days ago on one of the feminist blogs I follow, Shakesville. They were talking about the South African vuvuzelas and while I know those things can be annoying, a bunch of white people really shouldn’t talk about it without at least discussing the cultural aspects. They even denied that the “noisiness” of South Africans at sporting events had anything to do with culture at all (black people are just loud I guess). But when someone brought it up, the comments were closed. That’s what white women do, they shut down attempts at anti-racism, whether it’s through crying or storming off in a huff or calling in the white men to clean things up.
I’ve seen it time after time on feminist blogs. Amanda Marcotte, Jessica Valenti, all the top feminist bloggers have had significant problems with racism. And then their male blogger friends would rush to their side and shout all the women of color down, or they’d just ban and close comments.
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Menelik,
“stop talking nonsense!”
I was going to tell you that!
“Jeri referred to herself! Because I’m a fan of the writer, Alice Miller, does that mean I can therefore generalise my interest to thousands or even millions of other Black men?”
No, because that is a personal interest of yours. However, the original statement said “black women,” without specifications as to which black women. If it had referred to one black woman (like your example refers only to you) or only certain types of black women, then it would be wrong of Jeri to respond. But since it did not, Jeri is within her boundaries.
Menelik, this is not difficult to comprehend. I hope.
“I have no idea what you are talking about.”
Clearly!
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Jeri said
@ Menelik,
Most Black women I know work hard to love and protect the black men in their lives. Rather the black males are their sons, husbands, or brothers, whatever. I see it everyday. That is my experience!
Menelik replies:
please re-read what you said, Jeri because it really does make for interesting reading! “Most Black women I know work hard to love and protect the black men in their lives”, is what you wrote. Think about it.
Shouldn’t it be the men working hard and protecting the women in their lives e.g. daughters, wives, or sisters? Are you, by accident I will assume, suggesting the Black community is essentially a matriarchal society? If so, Jeri, this would explain a lot; not least the reactions to some of us ‘uppity’ Black men on here!
What say you?
Menelik Charles
London England
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Natasha W said:
truth b told’s original statement said “black women,” without specifications as to which black women. If it had referred to one black woman or only certain types of black women, then it would be wrong of Jeri to respond. But since it did not, Jeri is within her boundaries.
Menelik replies:
again, sweetie, this makes no sense! If Jeri wished to correct Truth B told accurately then she might well just have said ‘some’ or’ many’ Black women care about the Emmitt Till case, and left it at that. Instead she refers to herself alone.
The individual case is not relevant here since we are referring to a collective. If the Brother slandered Black women then defend the honour of the injured collective not that of a single individual. Ever heard of “class action”? If not, google it.
Menelik Charles
London England
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Danila,
“The ones run by women pay lip service to anti-racism. But when confronted with their own racism they are the first to try to quash the discussion.”
I’ve noticed that too of feminist blogs. Any talk of racism gets dismissed, deleted, closed, or otherwise shut down. It just illustrates what I was saying earlier and what the main post discusses: simply because a person is marginalized in one way doesn’t mean that they will understand or empathize with other forms of marginalization. In fact, they are often too engulfed in their own oppression to care about anyone else’s. I think that applies to all people, but some seem to think white women are a miraculous exception to this.
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Menelik, never mind. Just review the comments later and see if you can understand what I’m saying.
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“No, I’m not from a low status area and I’m definetly not low status. My area is well status with professionals. We have all types of people, just like anywhere else. BUT I DO notice that the low status people are the ones that I speak of.”
I wasn’t implying that you’re low status. I’m not either but have lived in areas with lots of poverty. I’m a Southerner after all. All I have to say is that the experiences you have with a particular group in daily life is not necessarily reflective of the group in general, even in the area where you live.
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^ And I linked above to representative statistics which contradict the stereotypes that have been espoused.
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I am not surprised this the topic turned into a bash BW fest. I noticed that on another internet forums. Whenever the racism of WW is mentioned a bm poster will quick defend ww and then mindless bring up all the so-called negative traits of BW. SMH. This topic has nothing to do with BW. *sigh*
I consider menlik charles a bw hater. He frequently posts on the disgusting mrlaurenton queens( another bw hater) and on his blog he frequently criticizes bw and bw who do date ir. His girlfriend is non bw. Do I need to say more?
Jeri- LOL. It’s pretty sad isnt it?
Island girl- I dont think a certain segment of the BM population ever really defended or loved bw. The color purple anyone??
I have been reading bw slave narratives and the bw had to deal with harrasment from both bm and bw.
NOW GETTING BACK TO TOPIC :):
In my experience WW tend to be more racist especially the older ww. I don’t know what it is but I have only experienced racism from WW or AW. It’s usually the oh you are so pretty. You must be mixed. Is that all your hair? Are your breasts real type comments. Don’t let a WM flirt with me or compliment me then all hell breaks lose or if I excell them in something. It’s very strange and I do have a lot off ww friends.
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Are White Women less racist than White men?
No. I have always question Both Black Men and Black Women when they go on about racism it always the “White Man” fault.
Hell during the Black Power movement you had White Feminist saying they can’t be racist because they understand struggle due to sexism. Misogyny in the Black Community has always been strong in both Black women and Black male.
Both Black Women and White Women are more likly to be more racist then there male counterpart. Due to competion that women have with each other when it comes to men and to the fact that they are rasing men.
Someone wrote that White women are to blame for White men racism due to being the mother and all and I agreed. The same can be said about Black women and this suppose hate that Black men tend to have toward other Black Women can be found in Black women rasing Black men not to respect Black women. I guess Black women have some kind of hate towards each other, etc (Light Skin v.s. Dark Skin/ Good Hair v.s. Bad Hair /Ass v.s. No ass lol and so on)
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@Menelik Charles
I don’t understand what is that you don’t understand about my statement concerning the lynchings! Truth B Told said that Black women ( a general statement) don’t care about the black men that were lynched! I used myself as an example of black women who does. What is it that is so complicated about this! (Sigh). Look, it seems to me that you are another anti-bw person!
@Camille
Yep. The reactions that many of black men have had to this post only confirmed what I have always believed about alot ( not all) black men. It is sad! And this has been going on for years! It didn’t just start this way. So many want to DESPERATELY believe that practically all white women are innocent. You present them with proof to the contrary and they want to attack you! How many black men defend us like this! Ooh boy!
@Natasha W
Menelike Charles is pretending to not understand what you are talking about! He understands!
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Camille said:
I consider Menelik Charles a Black woman hater. He frequently posts on the disgusting Mr Laurenton Queens blog (another Black woman hater) and he frequently criticizes Black women who date inter-racially. His girlfriend is a non-Black woman. Need I say more?
Menelik replies:
yeah, you need to say a lot more, you cheeky monkey! Like the following, for example:
1) provide a single word, sentence or paragraph in which I have expressed “hatred” towards Black women;
2) provide a single word, sentence or paragraph in which I have “criticised” Black women dating inter-racially;
3) provide a picture, or mere rumour, showing or suggesting my partner is anything other than a woman of African-Caribbean descent.
Camille, we now await you considered response to my request. I wish you every success in your search for evidence supporting your claims…as I’m sure most of the ladies on here do.
See you shortly.
Menelik Charles
London England
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@Menelik Charles
Yeah I did say that black women go out of their to love and protect black men! But it is amazing what you said it! You said that black men should be protecting us! But many don’t do it, including yourself! So you have plenty of sense but you are determined to go against what you know is right! Truth B Told said that black women don’t care about the black men who were lynched in the past. I defended black women and said they did based on my own feelings. You decide to go on his side! Umm. That is interesting! You didn’t defend me and you didn’t defend black women in general! Umm. You know better!!!
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Natasha W said:
truth b told’s original statement said “black women,” without specifications as to which black women. If it had referred to one black woman or only certain types of black women, then it would be wrong of Jeri to respond. But since it did not, Jeri is within her boundaries.
Menelik replies:
again, sweetie, this makes no sense! If Jeri wished to correct Truth B told accurately then she might well just have said ‘some’ or’ many’ Black women care about the Emmitt Till case, and left it at that. Instead she refers to herself alone.
The individual case is not relevant here since we are referring to a collective. If the Brother slandered Black women then defend the honour of the injured collective not that of a single individual. Ever heard of “CLASS ACTION”? If not, google it.
Menelik Charles
London England
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@Menelik Charles
CHEEKY MONKEY! Ohh, you are really revealing what you are all about! Isn’t that a racist statement to call a black women a monkey!
@Camille
Don’t pay him no mind! He is exactly what you said he was!
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Jeri said:
@Menelik Charles
I don’t understand what is that you don’t understand about my statement concerning the lynchings! Truth B Told said that Black women ( a general statement) don’t care about the black men that were lynched! I used myself as an example of black women who does. What is it that is so complicated about this! (Sigh). Look, it seems to me that you are another anti-bw person!
Menelik replies:
and it seem to me that you need a course in basic logic! Please re-read what I wrote above.
Thanks.
Menelik Charles
London England
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Jeri,
you have insulted me no end on this site, right? Saying I hate Black women, yes? get over yourself, you silly twat! I am Black and British! The phrase cheeky monkey is a term of endearment on these shores!
Seems to me you need to get a passport… and something else to remove that chip off your shoulder!
MC
@ Camille, no strawman arguments now, just provide evidence to back up your claims, ok?
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@Menelik Charles
You should still be careful what you call people on this website because many people don’t have any comprehension that “cheeky monkey” is a term of endearment!
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menlik charles-I dont have to prove anything. I know what I read on the laurelton queens blog and your blog. How dare you call jeri a tw2t. Your anti bw comments are all over that blog. You praised your chinese girlfriend and attacked bw.
Jerr- I just find it odd that so many black men like menlik charles and truth be told are so emotionally attached to ww.
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Jeri said:
@Menelik Charles
Yeah I did say that black women go out of their to love and protect black men! But it is amazing what you said it! You said that black men should be protecting us!
Menelik replies:
there’s nothing “amazing” about my comments since the point of them was to raise the issue of matriarchy or female dominance in the African-American community; a dominance which expresses itself in a patent lack of femininity among many African-American females which, in turn, is proving a real turn-off for men of all races.
Sure, many Black men can be said to have been ’emasculated’ by the overbearing spectre of femaleness (not femininity!) and seek to compensate for this through macho posturings (not masculine actions!) however,we seriously need to look at how women themselves are contributing to the problems they complain about (colorism, allegedly few “good” men, and competition for Black men from other races of women).
Precious few Black women want to address this issue unless presenting themselves as martyrs, and Black men as minstrels. Well, matters are coming to a head, Jeri, and so you’ll find that Freudian slips of the tongue (by your good self, no less!) are exposing what lies at the core of our seemingly perpetual plight: hardcore, ghetto matriarchy! It will end ya hopes before ya have em!
Menelik Charles
London England
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Menelik Charles: what does this topic have to do with black female matriarchy???
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Camille said:
Menelik Charles,
I dont have to prove anything. I know what I read on the Laurelton queens blog and your blog. How dare you call jeri a tw2t. Your anti bw comments are all over that blog. You praised your chinese girlfriend and attacked bw.
Menelik replies:
you have to offer no proof supporting your claims? Are you on some sort of medication? Anyway, let me say this real calmly: you will never, ever, prove I have so much as even kissed a Chinese woman, let alone dated one!
Moreover, I have never attacked Black women (why do you Black women consider contrary opinions as an “attack”), I am not a blog owner, and my partner is an African-Caribbean. Can you not read, dear?
tell ya what, girlfriend, you provide evidence like I asked for and we’ll say no more about it, ok?
Menelik Charles
London England
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Er… btw, “matriarchy” doesn’t mean “female dominance”: it means family descent through women.
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@Menelik Charles
You know! Someone made a comment that it is so true. How did a discussion on racist white women became a discussion on how messed up black women are and how we have contributed to the problems of the black community! Like I said before, the reactions to this post only confirmed the anti-bw attitudes of many black men! I don’t care who you are dating! You clearly have some issues! And the more you talk, the more obvious it becomes! You say black women refuse to acknowledge their problems but many black men refuse to acknowledge theirs! Many would rather blame black women for their problems instead of acknowledging that many of them have a seriously bad attitude towards the women in their community! You say we all too masciline. Well, lets talk about what many black men have done! I will just give one example. Many black men, in front of the whole world, have called black women b###th and h##s. They do this though the music and in other forms of the media. So how would you expect black women to react when they are consistently degraded by black men in the media! To have a happy attitude about it! I would think this would cause many black women to have suspicions about black men’s loyalty! What do you think?
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I think the term is actually called ‘matri-lineal’ (as opposed to ‘patrilineal)
Matriarchy is something else which matrilineal is also a component
Anybody else??
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Yeah, what does matriarchal mean?
MC
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To be honest Menelik, anthropologists are moving away from the term.
Rather they like to use the term
matri-focal – female focussed
or patrifocal
Matriarchal societies in a few word gave the ‘false impression’ that women essentially ruled the society.
However, and unfortunately there has never been a society like this..
A matriarchal societies, all things being equal, confers greater status and/or gives women greater privileges than a patriarchal society.
Hope this is of some help.
Personally, I think it was an attempt to disrupt your flow.
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^^ what does this have to do with ww racism?
I have a feeling that if we were discussing wm racism black male patriarchy wouldnt be discussed
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You best ask Thad for your response
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Not sure about the term ‘Black male patriarchy’ but I think I understand what you mean.
Patriarchy as a system is what is devised by males essentially. If we being honest to the facts patriarchy refers to how a given society is constructed in this respect Blacks in U.S have not constructed the society., they have lived and conformed to its protocols.
Obviously they have benefitted from a system of patriarchy.
I think this is a correct rendering of the situation but to accept it the way you have suggested is not an accurate and it is falsely attributing things to Black males in some respect with regar dto anthropology etc.
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Anyhow back to you and Menelik,
before Thad untimely intervention, and mine tooooooooo by the look of things
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Jeri
@Menelik Charles
how did a discussion on racist white women became a discussion on how messed up Black women are and how we have contributed to the problems of the black community?
Menelik replies:
please underline the term “CONTRIBUTED” in your sentence. I think it adds nuance to my comments, don’t you think?
Jeri said:
reactions to this post only confirmed the anti-bw attitudes of many Black men! I don’t care who you are dating! You clearly have some issues! And the more you talk, the more obvious it becomes!
Menelik replies:
what is becoming obvious are the underlying issues you have with Black men…
Jeri said:
You say Black women refuse to acknowledge their problems but many Black men refuse to acknowledge theirs!
Menelik replies:
see, now your generalising! I said exactly this: precious few Black women.
Jeri said:
many Black men would rather blame Black women for their problems instead of acknowledging they have a seriously bad attitude towards the women in their community!
Menelik replies:
and many Black women would do likewise. I’m sure we’re agreed on that point!
Jeri said:
you say we all too masculine. Well, lets talk about what many black men have done! I will just give one example. Many black men, in front of the whole world, have called black women b###th and h##s.
Menelik replies:
no doubt because “many Black men” perceive many Black women as genteel and feminine, right?
Jeri said:
how would you expect Black women to react when they are consistently degraded by Black men in the media? I would think this would cause many women to have suspicions about Black men’s loyalty!
What do you think?
Menelik replies:
I boycott the likes of R Kelly; many Black women do not. I refuse to listen to most hip Hop minstrels; many Black women do. I switch channels when most r’n’b dudes begin serenading their barely-Black love interests; many Black women do not.
And my point, Jeri? I think my relationship with, and sentiments towards, Black women are a little more complex that what you might think, babes!
Menelik Charles
London England
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@ J,
thanks.
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Wow, two posts on the racism of white women and who winds up getting bashed? This is so sad.
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@Menelik Charles
Menelik Charles
No doubt because “black men” percieve many black women as genteel and feminine!
Jeri says
Are you justifying black men’s disrespect of black men in front of the entire world? Are saying this is our fault?
Your response to my saying that hip-hop is terrible is you saying how you despise and refuse to watch or listen to hip-hop! Well, you are just a singular black man remember! I mean I wasn’t talking about you specifically!
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@ Menelik Charles
I mean’t to say are YOU justifying black men’s disrespect of black men in front of the entire world?
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abagond- It’s beyond sad. It’s pathetic
menlik- what do bw have to do with the racism of WW?
You are trying to derail the discussion to promote your bw bashing agenda
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Old school anthropology used “matriarchal” to mean family descent via women rather than men, IIRC.
“Patriarchy” and “matriarchy” as they are being used here have very little value as anthropological terms as they are essentially politicized and dogmatic terms meant to be used as “black boxes” (i.e. meant to be stated in order to cut off analysis rather than to enhance it).
People say “patriarchy” when they mean “something which I believe is male-oriented and which I don’t like”.
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@ Jeri,
no, but I was talking about Black women specifically just as you were.
Jeri said:
how would you expect Black women to react when they are consistently degraded by Black men in the media? I would think this would cause many women to have suspicions about Black men’s loyalty!
Menelik replies:
see!!!!!
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By any anthropological OR political standard, black America cannot be classified as a “matriarchy”.
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Jeri- that’s exactly what he is doing. He has said worse things about bw on other websites
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Thaddeus said:
Old school anthropology used “matriarchal” to mean family descent via women rather than men.
Menelik replies:
thanks, thad. I guess with the low-marriage rate, and apparently “dead beat dads” all conspire to bring about this very situation in African-American families.
Menelik Charles
London England
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@Abagond
You are right Abagond! This is sad! I don’t want to bash black men! But I don’t want them bashing black women neither! Like I said, if we were talking about white men being racist, something tells me this would never have happened! It deeply concerns me! I have for awhile asked myself why black men don’t defend and protect us like this. But I have to be honest with myself! Many do! My husband is a very good provider and protector! But I am concerned about the black men who aren’t like this! I am concerned about black women who haven’t found their Prince Charming! I hope black women aren’t dillusioned by what has happened today. There are some black men, like yourself, who do respect and love us and these are the only black men I am concerned with at this point!
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They did the same thing on the Ota Benga post, derailed the discussion because nobody wanted to deal with the sickness. Nobody wants to look or smell the oozing pus filled sore that is right in front of their eyes. But I am grateful that Abagond still push on no matter the strategies that are used to blind the eyes to the obvious.
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Listen Camille,
the only person fully derailing this discussion is you with your constant lies and slurs against me. You live in a free country with free speech; please, therefore, feel free to provide evidence to support your absurd claims!
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@Camille
That is exactly what he is doing! He is justifying black men’s abuse toward black women! I mean, I have been hurt by many black men in my lifetime! But if I would justify black women calling black men “shiftless N#####r” in music, over and over again, that would be just plain wrong. I am not saying black women have never said it, but to create a form of music for the main purpose to degrade black men, would be evil! Oh well, I am done talking to this person. I believe you when you say he has done this before!
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@Menelik
thanks, thad. I guess with the low-marriage rate, and apparently “dead beat dads” all conspire to bring about this very situation in African-American families.
That used to be the theory – proposed by a somewhat racist “liberal” senator-cum-sociologist back in the 1970s. then anthros started digging into it and discovered that it was so much BS. Black men playkey and important roles in black family structure and descendency – as in the rest of American society – is via both the father and the mother’s line.
So no, MC: black families are by no means matriarchical.
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@ Jeri,
I’m not sure what you are calling on Abagond to do, Jeri. maybe to ban me for simply engaging in a debate your constant comments perpetuate? Is this how you want Abagond to “protect” you?
I guess if I wrote as you write above I’d be overwhelmed with females telling me to ‘man up’ and stop being such a wimp: really, I wouldn’t hear the last of it!
Menelik Charles
London England
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Jeri said:
you say we all too masculine. Well, lets talk about what many black men have done! I will just give one example. Many black men, in front of the whole world, have called black women b###th and h##s.
Menelik replies:
no doubt because “many Black men” perceive many Black women as genteel and feminine, right?
Jeri said:
how would you expect Black women to react when they are consistently degraded by Black men in the media? I would think this would cause many women to have suspicions about Black men’s loyalty!
What do you think?
Menelik replies:
I boycott the likes of R Kelly; many Black women do not. I refuse to listen to most hip Hop minstrels; many Black women do. I switch channels when most r’n’b dudes begin serenading their barely-Black love interests; many Black women do not.
And my point, Jeri? I think my relationship with, and sentiments towards, Black women are a little more complex that what you might think, babes!
Menelik Charles
London England
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@Menelik Charles
I thought I was over. Maybe not. I don’t need anyone to protect me from the likes of you! Fortunately, many black women are strong enough to deal with self-hating black men such as yourself! It is just nice to know that all black men aren’t like you!!!
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@ Jeri,
I have sought to justify no such abuse of black women! Many Hip Hop artistes do. I make it abundantly clear in that I do not condone the verbal abuse or the colorism towards Black women by Black men in the music industry!
Stop making stuff up as you go along!
Menelik Charles
London England
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@ Jeri,
and the personal attacks continue! can you recall an occasion when I have personally insulted you? Just one occasion, babes, that’s all. Please try.
Good luck!
Menelik Charles
London England
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@Menelike Charles
I think I said this earlier. I thought we were not talking about you since you are just one black man. I was talking about some black men. Didn’t you say the same thing! When I said that black women cared about black men being lynched because I cared, you said that didn’t matter because I am a singular black woman. Remember!
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[Makes some popcorn and sits back to watch the circus burn.]
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@Menelik Charles
You DID say that rappers were justified! I know what I read!
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Jeri,
please, babes, I place great faith in reason, and all that which might derive from it. Point-scoring bad; reasoned debate good!
MC
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@Menelik Charles
You said that you didn’t support rap! Well you are just one singular black man. I can use the same crazy arguments you have used.
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@Menelik Charles
Look we can go at this all night! I know what I read! You tried to justify rap’s abuse of black women. Ain’t nobody stupid! I know other people read it also! Anytime a black man would do this, I question their reason all together! You are not reasonable so don’t try to pretend you are!
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@Menelik Charles
Goodnight!!!
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Jeri said:
you say we are masculine. Well, lets talk about what many Black men have done! I will just give one example. Many Black men, in front of the whole world, have called Black women b###th and h##s.
Menelik replies:
no doubt because “many Black men” perceive many Black women as genteel and feminine, right?
Jeri said:
how would you expect Black women to react when they are consistently degraded by Black men in the media? I would think this would cause many women to have suspicions about Black men’s loyalty!
What do you think?
Menelik replies:
I boycott the likes of R Kelly; many Black women do not. I refuse to listen to most hip Hop minstrels; many Black women do. I switch channels when most r’n’b dudes begin serenading their barely-Black love interests; many Black women do not.
And my point, Jeri? I think my relationship with, and sentiments towards, Black women are a little more complex that what you might think, babes!
Menelik Charles
London England
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@ Everyone,
once again people can read my comments as ‘rolling news’. I say clearly that I turn my back on most modern Black artiste for their treatment of Black women and girls.
I do not condone calling women bitches hos any more than I condone use of the N word.
I have made my case.
Over!
MC
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Are white women just as racist as white men? Yes, but as others have mentioned in previous posts, it just manifests differently. It manifests in the way they wield their power. The manifestations can be more insidious. Remember that old saying; “The hand that rocks the cradle, rules the world.”
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@ Herneith,
the white man is the ‘radar’, so to speak, and white women go under it; thus often going undetected with scheming and what have you.
Menelik Charles
London England
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I see this thread has gone to sh!t
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@Menelik Charles I agree with you 1000% and I am a black woman. Black men in America embarrass me.
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@Menelik Charles
Menelik, lets go over something!
Jeri said
You say we are too masculine. Well, lets talk about what black men have done. I will just give you one example. Many black men in front of the whole world, have called black women b###th and h##s.
Menelik says
No doubt because “many black men” perceive many black women as genteel and feminine right?
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@Menelik Charles
Now if you are not justifying calling black women names in the media, what did you mean by that statement? Sounds to me that you think black rappers are right! And understand, I am ONLY talking about that statement! Yeah, you said some stuff later about how you refuse to support rappers and that you don’t watch or listen to hip hop but what did you mean by THAT statement?
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Jeri, just don’t bother. There is clearly nothing you can say that will change their minds. And it is good they are coming out of the woodwork and revealing their true colors: maybe some women will get the hint and stop supporting them.
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@Menelik Charles
Menkelik Charles says
How dare you imply Truth B Told was referring specifically to you!!! Keep in mind you are Black woman singular, while the Bro was referrring to Black women plural: Did you not see that?
Now you came at me with this statement because I said to Truth B Told that he was wrong to imply that black women don’t care about Emmet Till because I cared. I saw pictures of his body while he was in a casket at his funeral and his body was bloated and disfigured. I was a child at the time. It has bothered me for years! I have also seen many pictures of black men hanging from trees and I even saw a picture of a black man burnt to a crisp after he was set on fire!
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@Menelik Charles
You told me in that statement above that he wasn’t referring to me singular but to black women plural. Now, this is what you originally said to me in the beginning of our discussion.
Jeri said
How would you expect black women to react when they are consistently degraded by black men in the media ? I would think this would cause many women to have suspicions about black men’s loyalty.
Menelik says
I boycott the likes of R. Kelly, many black women do not. I refuse to listen to most hip hop minstrels, many black women do not. I swich the channel when most R&B dudes begin serenading their barely black love interest…….
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@Menelik Charles
So it is okay for you to use yourself as an example of a righteous black man ( which I have my doubts about) but it is not okay for me to use myself as a righteous black woman!!! Man you are so full of it, it is ridiculous!! And like I said, you claim not to take an interest in hip-hop but in the statement that I asked you to explain, you clearly support what they are doing!!
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What is very interesting to me is that when there is a debate or discussion on black women’s bodies, bm come out of the woodwork to defend anyone who they feel are attacking their preference. But when it comes to something real…. crickets. Priorities?
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What I have observed in this dialogue is a lack of knowledge generally and who in fact has ‘power’, with regard to the topic whilst at the same time living lives of the Black Skin White Masks cariactures, without realising it.
The lack of race-consciousness
And what surprised me most is that women are still expecting men to defend them. Without realising that if they give men this power, it ultimately may mean they have also deferred power to men to continue to oppress the – a lack of liberation insight and/or theory from a ‘Black feminist’ perspective
In my opening statement on this post, I had a feeling this thread would go the way of inter-racial dating, and so it has proved.
Although it could have been worded better, I did say:
“I am not quite sure why, but I have the feeling the issue that whether White women are not as racist as White men is to do with the issue of dating/inter-race relationship.
I believe this is essentially the back-drop to the conversation and what the dialogue is about in a perverse way”
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@J “without realising that if they give men this power, it ultimately may mean they have also deferred power to men to continue to oppress the – a lack of liberation insight and/or theory from a ‘Black feminist’ perspective”
Wrong, Wrong and once again wrong…. that is a feminist perspective not a black feminist perspective.
Black women’s clubs, church groups, sororities and social groups historically emphasizes traditional femininity as a counterattack to the racist beliefs of white men and women.
White women have enjoyed and continue to enjoy the privileges of white supremacy. They refuse to acknowledge the fact that they are seen a the supreme icon of beauty and femininity from their long flowing hair to their delicately shaped feet. Most books written by white women in interracial relationships are about their transcendent love and many paint black women as sullen racists who cannot understand that level of bonding. None of the current set of why black women are _____ (fill in the blank). there are always white women who proclaim their love has nothing to do with status and don’t understand why black women don’t date outside their race. They know nothing of the pressure black women get about “repopulate the race” and the fact that white men do not see us the way black men see them.
@J
““I think both black men AND women are suffering in their own ways, but one gender’s suffering should not be placed higher above the other’s.”
No but black men seem to overemphasize our role as an obstacle to liberation. Instead of tackling the vicissitudes of institutional and laisse faire racism. It is much easier to say black women are deficient in our femininity in away that only make their struggle harder. Yet we still give birth to black men and raise them to adulthood only to be abandoned or disregarded for the white women on the pedestal.
@Mira “Also, it would be nice to discuss white women’s perspective on these relationships”
No it wouldn’t, see above.
@Jade Try towns, check out:
http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1979/2
/79.02.04.x.html
In addition as quiet as it is kept black women were raped on a wholesale basis during race riots, lynchings and KKK raids. I think the historical inability of black men to protect black women has a lot to do with all this hateration coming our way. White women are still represented as a group that need protection and rescuing, perhaps that is also part of the reason black men can act like a misogynist thugs to black women and sing the praises of post-Loving mixed raced women and white women a la Slim Thug.
Comments? Questions? Arguments? I sent the link to my new blog to abagond already, so I think he will forgive me if I post it here. Angry Black Woman Watch is dedicated to smashing black women hateration and laisse fair demonization check it out at http://www.abww.com and leave a message about what you think or any suggestions you might have.
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@ Kitt
Black women have raised more white children, than white social workers have. White women do nothing to disavow that they are on a pedestal looking down on us mules (homage to Zora Neale Hurston, a woman who was dismissed and trivialized by the black male intelligentsia of her day.
As a former black clinical social worker, I got paid more to help whites than my day job helping blacks and Hispanics. I used my pay the private clinic (in Howard Beach, no less) to buy supplies for my black and Hispanic kids. The “inherent kindness and goodwill” of white women is all part of the package of their “ideal” femininity.
B. Told is dating his Asian woman because of the stereotype of Asian submissiveness and the fact that she is still a women of color gives him the authority the debase black women.
Why has a post about white female racism devolved into another hate on black women-fest?
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CORRECTION:
My new blog is at http://abww.wordpress.com. If the blog works out the way I want it to (i.e. uplift black women, smash all forms of black women hateration, and encourage more nuanced way to consume media about us) I will see about the domain name.
Thanks to B. Told’s ignorance I am going to honor Mamie Till as the ABWW Heroine of the Day tomorrow.
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Cheers Eshowoman,
1. That is not a feminist per se perspective that is my own analysis, I was offering.
The way the system is set up at present, women need protection from men, but have you ever thought that it does not have to be this way if the society is structured in a different way??
2. With regard to Black males seeing women as being an obstacle to liberation. This is a slightly complex argument because of the differing organisations that are essentially fronted by men.
What I would say here, is that some of the Nationalist persuasion believe Black women are taking up the ideology of feminism, a point you allude to in your response, without having an understanding of how the role of European women in European societies has been completely different vis-a-vis pre-colonial Africa (ie before foreign incursions)??
In my last post I make way of reference to the fact that there has not been a ‘Black feminist’ discourse here, but rather more a parodying of ‘feminism’ inadvertently or otherwise.I still stand by that contention.
3. As for the role of white women and herein is the problem for women of POC. Where class has been projected world-wide through socialism, race projected across the world, into us and them (ie White/POC) because of global racism.
There has never been this projection completed by women of whatever race. So what you kind of see is small pockets of ideas which have diffused into differing parts of the world. So in this instance the feminist that obviously is going to be reflected will ultimately be ‘White and Middle-Class’. To think otherwise would be problematic, in my own opinion.
So it is as I hinted at previously, for Black women to take a ‘stand’ in the sense of defining an ideology to liberate themselves accordingly.
Its going to be difficult, since either they do it by ‘race’ , and be ‘second’, or they do it by sex/gender, and finish second or possibly even ‘third’.
Finally I would like to say something about the Hip Hop industry. Although Blacks are the performers, the record labels, those who predominatly buy records are ‘White’, and to a large degree that industry is controlled by Whites.
Often you here reference to teh artists, who are rightly blamed, but no criticismof the major record label that continue to allow this type of banality to be pushed out
Cheers for the link. I am not sure I have any solutions. I am just an ordinary guy just trying to understand the ‘forces’ at work. Nevertheless, I will take a look.
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…Unfortunately the link did not work
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Eshowoman,
There was a slight delay…and now I have seen your page.
Good luck with it
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Bravo eshowoman!
Your PRO-BW blog is the ANSWER to the ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE that is prevalent in American media/society.
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Interesting that it seems to be consensus here that “genteel and feminine” is a good and proper thing for women to be.
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I just read a few of the comments that I missed. Abagond, this is some sad S_H_I_T right here. What happened? How did the post turn into a black on black bashing, race to the bottom?
Pure foolishness!
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Hi Y,
would you care to point out (please quote me) where I may have “bashed” Black women?
Thanks
Menelik Charles
London England
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I dont recall mentioning your name Menelik
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@J.
“That I would say here, is that some of the Nationalist persuasion believe Black women are taking up the ideology of feminism, a point you allude to in your response, without having an understanding of how the role of European women in European societies has been completely different vis-a-vis pre-colonial Africa (ie before foreign incursions)??”
I would say that you are completely and totally wrong. As Audre Lorde said the masters tools will never destroy the masters house. After you have read the late Audre, read Patricia Hill Collins, Marcia Wallace, Toni Morrision, Kimberly Crenshaw, Jacquelyn BoBo, Alice Walker and about the late greats Fannie Lou Hamer , Septima Clarke Daisy Bates and Dorothy Height and then tell me that these women “aving an understanding of how the role of European women in European societies has been completely different”
I would not bring up Africa, pre colonial or recent, due to the history and continuation of genital mutilation designed on making women more compliant and to increase pleasure for men.
@J
“Where has never been this projection completed by women of whatever race.”
Have you ever read some of the diaries of Southern women’s entires about their husband’s black prostitutes an gaggles of half breed?” Read Gerder Lerner’s Black Woman in American. Have you read how when the few white men who made their slaves into concubine did right and freed them after death and how their daughters overwhelming contested the wills and sold the women and their brothers and sisters? Read Woman of Color, Daughter of Privilege: Amanda America Dickson.
Again this entry was about exploring white women’s racism and seems to be ending with bashing black women. That is why I started the blog.
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I knew all intelligent discussion was over the minute LIES B OLD walked thru the door.
Why does anyone even bother to engage him? It’s so painfully obvious that he’s ignorant, insecure, lonely & bitter that it’s criminal to engage. And wherever LIES goes Menelik follows. Maybe they’re lovers?
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@ Menelik
I was born in England and still have family there. Black men in England and Canada are doing the same thing black American Men are doing. Climbing up that pedestal as fast as they can,
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@ thad,
LOL! I call sexism!
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Interesting that it seems to be consensus here that “genteel and feminine” is a good and proper thing for women to be
Because if she is not seen as “genteel and feminine”, women get accused of trying to subvert the role of a man, doesn’t know “her natural place” or being “matriarchal” *roll eyes*
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Yeah, Jade, I’m aware that’s what society thinks. I would think that the folks here would think beyond that.
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Cheers Eshowoman,
Just very briefly,
1. Just to say some of the women you site are of different political persuasion and herein is one of the contradictions
2. As Audre Lorde said the masters tools will never destroy the masters house. And paradoxically this is what those of a Nationalist persuasion are saying with regard to use of feminism. And if I take one of the names you utilise then Alice Walker would definitely be using those tools of the master’s house .
3. As for Female Genital Mutilation (FGM). Again another complex issue. Many attribute FGM as a practice linked tosome aspect of Islam/Arab culture within Africa. Notwithstanding that there does appear to ‘female circumcision’ on the continent which is something different to FGM, or so the argument goes.
That you appear to conflate FGM with indigenous African culture supports the contention of the Nationalist that Women are taking up feminism without first having an understanding of their history and culture.This time specifically as it related to women and their role and place in society in Pre-Colonial Africa.
4. With regard to this thread, this is my own thoughts. I think one of the female commentators who is passionate about this issue influenced the course of its direction. Go through the thread Eshowoman, leaving aside your predisposition and read each words on its merit, and you oughtto see the ‘facts’. The female bashing that you are referring to comes very late in the sequence of events.
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@ J,
can you give a single example of “female bashing” occurring on this blog. Also please provide a quote if you may.
Thanks
MC
London
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To be fair Menelik,
From out of what I refer to as ‘self-hate’ and Black Skin White Masks cariacutures there has been a bit of bashing on both sides.
And what I would say there has been a ‘camaraderie’ among the female posters more than men.
As for your position Menelik, from what I have read generally (and I have not read everything – not even on this thread). I would not call you a ‘basher’.
Even though it is often suggested you cannot get a ‘feel’ for a person on blogs. I would argue to the . There will always be individual personality that comes through even behind a computer screen. I a not going to mention any names here, but you should know who you are by now ha ha
Finally, there are a lot of individuals posting here who are carrying a lot of hurt and personal feelings. So when a topics like this arises, as we English might say, it gives the person the opportunity, ‘to go into one’.
Hope this has answerd your question Menelik.
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@ eshowoman:
I have to concur with J about the direction of this thread. While I can’t say I like the attitude on display in some of the later comments from black men, it seems that these were partly in response to some of the black female commenters here. I got the impression that to say anything that wasn’t entirely negative about white women was interpreted as “defending” them, and by extension, being anti-black women.
That’s just my interpretation from what I observed. This was an interesting thread before it got derailed.
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@ J,
point taken!
MC
London
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@J
“Just to say some of the women you site are of different political persuasion and herein is one of the contradictions”
Huh? You are criticizing a site that praises black women and points out the absurdity of black women stereotypes? Your criticism literally makes no sense.
“those of a Nationalist persuasion are saying with regard to use of feminism. Alice Walker would definitely be using those tools of the master’s house .”
What is this nationalist persuasion you talking about? I purposely put in Alice Walker because of all the women I put in that comment a basher would gravitate to her and ignore
the rest of the the post. Have you ever read ANYTHING this women has written or a your basing your ASSumptions on a movie where she had no control over the screenplay? It is amazing that everyone blamed her and no one said a thing about Steven Spielberg. After Amistad one would think that his view of black folks is a little biased.
You are defending Female mutilation? WTF I don’t care where it came from and if you read the facts it is practiced by Muslims and Christians alike.
l”eave your predisposition aside”? What exactly is my predisposition?
@Euasian
“if it wasn’t entirely negative white women was interpreted as “defending” them, and by extension, being anti-black women.”
The overwhelming need to deflect the entire idea that white women are racist is part of the problem. The failure to even explore this phenomenon on the part of some of the men here is an exemplar of how deeply the idea of the ideal of white womanhood is ingrained in some black men’s minds. It is truly sad.
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@ eshowoman:
I imagine it would be good to have a few less assumptions about the motives of commenters here, all round.
It’s a shame for men to assume that black women only criticise white women because they are jealous “haters”. Likewise, men should be able to judge that perhaps white women are less racist (whether that is correct or not) without it automatically being assumed they are deifying white women, and by extension being negative toward black women.
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@Eshowoman
why is there such a need “o judge that perhaps white women are less racist”
Especially when abgond highlight a woman who has passed the most racist bill since the Dixiecrats filibusterered the civil rights bill.
Beside Violet Liuzzo, how many white women took an active part in the civil rights movement or advocated for inclusion and equal rights in the feminist movement. Just because white women are marrying black men in droves does not make them less racist. Instead of exploring the way they have used their privilege to keep keep their status historically and currently, it is easier to focus on the “inadequacies” of black women.
Can you examine why this tread has turned so predictably?
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Let get something straight!! Yes some black women suggested that black men were defending white women by suggesting that they are less racist! Okay. But the arguments back and forth didn’t start until Truth B Told came in and starting bashing black women. He could have said that just because black men percieve white women as less racist, doesn’t mean they are defending them. He could have said this assumption on black women’s part is a sign of insecurity and just leave it at that!!! But that IS NOT WHAT HAPPENED. He started outright insulting black women!!! He said that Black women could care less about the black men who were lynched in the past. He said that black women’s problem was our obsession with stuffing cheeseburgers down our throat!!! He said other things as well!! Please. Go back and read what he said in his comment and stop pretending to not understand that he was outright ATTACKING BLACK WOMEN.
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I got in the discussion when I said that it was wrong to assume that black women didn’t care about black men who were lynched because I care! I also that black women aren’t the only ones who might have a weight problem. I said I see overweight white women all the time!! This weight problem is an American problem. This is a fat nation! Then, Menelik Charles decided to come into the conversation by saying that I shouldn’t use myself as an example of a black women who cares because I was just one black woman. Truth B Told was talking about black women in general, according to Menelik Charles! So this mess all began when Truth B Told started BASHING black women! Period!!
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Understand! I don’t have a problem with people expressing their opinions but what Truth B Told did wasn’t right! He didn’t just express his opinion. He started abusing black women. I mean he hit Black women below the belt! And this is sad considering that he is a Black Man! How would black men feel if we said that black men were fat and evil and didn’t care about the black women who were raped when black women were slaves! Now understand I am NOT saying that about black men! I would never say something like this!! I am using this as an example. Truth B Told’s attitude was abusive and that was why black women got angry!
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I know we were talking about black women of today, but here are examples of two black women that fought against lynchings! Please lets respect their memories!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ida_B._Wells
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I can’t fathom why on earth people use statistics about high interracial marriage betwen white women and other races as an indicator that they are less racist. That’s staggeringly erroneous! Goodness forbid black women point that out.
It’s ironic that the same camaraderie that black women have been accused of having in supporting each others view is completely lost on the same men who concurred on the same issues, for the simple fact that they are black males! LOL as the brits say ‘you couldn’t make it up’.
Personal issues have been brought into the fray, couple that with commenters that are all over the blogosphere with their anti-bw rhetoric, well all was lost.
It’s patronizing to black women that we get our validation from men critisizing white women on our behalf as a show of support? I mean WTH?
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Eshowoman,
I am afraid to say your understanding of my last post is the equivalent of your failure to understand the direction this thread has taken.
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What Truth B Told really said:
1) do you really believe that Black women today give a damn about Black men who were lynched when they have so many abortions of Black babies (and Black boys) today?
2) do you really think Black women give a damn about Emmitt Till when so many of them are eager to drop their panties to thugs who do the same thing to other Black men today that those White men did to Emmitt Till?
3) do you really believe that Black women are “more loyal” than Black men? Or is it that White men generally are not looking for Black women to marry? If White men loved Black women as much as they loved Asian women, their a$$es would be gone faster than you can say Lena Horne.
4) do you really believe “beauty standards” are holding Black women back or is that they can’t stop shoving their faces full of Fried Chicken and Cheeseburgers? How come “beauty standards” are not holding back the other non-white races of women?
Menelik says:
the above may appear confrontational (it was actually defensive) but it was in direct response to a range of comments before hand in which Black men were accused of: 1) lacking of loyalty towards Black women; 2) an underlying preference for white women, and 3) a lack of appreciation of white women’s role in their oppression.
the general tone of some of the commentary was sneering and dismissive of “week-minded” Black men and their alleged symbolic ‘partners’ in crime (against Black women) white women. It was, in effect, Black female posters throwing Black men under the bus while simultaneously claiming martyrdom to Black men’s colorism, sexism and lack of loyalty. It was painful to read.
In the ensuing ‘fight’ Truth B Told was accused of all manner of things from “hating” Black women to “self-hatred”. I was accused of much the same, including being attached to an Asian woman (never have been, my partner IS Black). Most of all we were accused of “derailing the debate” rather than responding to the direction in which the debate was heading…against Black men.
I hope this clears one or two things up.
Thanks.
Menelik Charles
London England
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In reference to “Whereas some Jews, for example, do seem to understand racism better than most other whites”, should that not be ‘Whereas some white Jews…’? Jews of colour obviously understand racism better, and that sentence seems to leave them out.
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Black men have to stop automatically attacking black women without looking at their own behavior. Yes black women nag brothers, all women nag, but look at what the epidemic of black male misogyny has wrought. The hijacking of a musical art form that was born blocks away from where I grew up from – Rap!
Since the release of The Chronic, I have tried to ignore the constant barrage of epithets against black women until good sense kicked in.
Films by black men feature black women as whores, aggressive, mannish, ugly, constantly angry and emasculating.
Black men are getting killed or enslaved to the criminal justice that staying with or marrying black women and raising their kids.
When a opportunity comes to examine white woman’s part in the historical and current oppression. Instead of examining the way they have benefited from white, supremacy and too many want to exonerate them without any investigation. What a way to honor the black women slaves that finally achieved their freedom from white women as well as men 149 years ago today.
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eshowoman said:
Black men have to stop automatically attacking black women without looking at their own behavior. Yes black women nag brothers, all women nag, but look at what the epidemic of black male misogyny has wrought.
Menelik asks:
could you give an example of any Black man on here “attacking” Black women? A clear example, if you will, and not one in which one or more Black men have merely challenged Black women (in response to comments they’ve made) in a coherent and assertive manner.
Thanks.
Menelik Charles
London England
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@ eshowoman
why is there such a need “o judge that perhaps white women are less racist”
Especially when abgond highlight a woman who has passed the most racist bill since the Dixiecrats filibusterered the civil rights bill.
Abagond asked a question in the title of this post. Some people think the answer is no, some people think the answer is yes. Each person’s opinion on the answer can be based on weighing up various factors. For me personally, I figured they might be just because I think women tend to be more liberally-minded and compassionate than men.
The dominant answer from black women here (“no, they are just as racist”) may well be the correct one. But I would just hope that someone could come to a different conclusion without being judged for it as a lover/defender of WW. Likewise black women should be able to express their opinion without being judged for it as insecure haters.
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Menelik Charles
Look. It is possible that some black men might have felt attacked by the responses some black women made. Some black men said that white women might be less racist. I will be honest. Now that I have gone over most of the comments, I didn’t see alot of black men “defending” white women. But like I said earlier, Truth B Told went too far with his comments. I will say it again. He was abusive with what he said. This is a thin line between expessing yourself in an “assertive manner” and being outright malicious! Maybe you felt you had to defend him because maybe YOU felt insulted by some of the comments made by the women! But wrong is wrong! I might emphasize with another person’s anger but I don’t think one should defend a person when they have crossed the line!
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Jeri said:
Some black men said that white women might be less racist. I will be honest.
Menelik replied:
“honest”? Which Black men on here claimed “white women might be less racist”? I guess you only have to scroll up to get the answer; please do so.
Thanks
Menelik Charles
London England
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@ Menelik Charles
Check out my blog http://www.abww.wordpress.com. i have only been writing it for a week but there are plenty of black women haters posted and so many more to add.
It is very clear and concise.
@Eurasian Sensation
Many of the black men have said no, but failed to explain why. That is the problem.What makes them less racist?
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I Repeat:
Which Black men on here have claimed “white women might be less racist”? I guess you only have to scroll up to get the answer; please do so.
Thanks
Menelik Charles
London England
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@ eshowoman,
I was checking out your blog yesterday evening. It was most interesting.
Thanks
MC
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Menelik, just to point out and say
To be fair to Jeri, at least she had the wherewithal to take the time to re-read the comments and in addition had the sincerity to say:
‘Now that I have gone over most of the comments, I didn’t see alot of black men “defending” white women’
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In many cases I find them to be more mean spirited towards especially Black Woman. For some reason It feels like they want to be the dominate WOMAN. Also, some Asian Woman are turning into real snobs. I have a greater problem with this because they seem to be turning into the very people that have hurt them akin to how they hurt us.
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@E.
I agree with you. I know a couple of AW like that – narcissistic and stuck-up. You would think they would know better. Sadly, no.
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One reason why this post turned into a bash bw fest was that several anonymous posters posted links back to this blog to so that they can defend bm and ww against the angry evil bw. I wouldnt be surprised if it was lies be told or menlik charles . For those of you who dont know mrlaurelton queens blog is a bw hate blog. If you want to see menelik charles bash bw every week you should visit that website and click on comments . Moving on. When I made my comment I saw several men of color trying to argue that ww werre LESS racist then Wm which is idiotic (in my opinion). No gender can be less or more racist. I also noticed that in other web discussions about the racism of ww a bm poster will gallantly defend ww and begin to tear bw apart. The discussion will then turn into a venting discussion for the bm poster to list all the faults about bw and the bw will then try to defend themselves.
Back on topic:
I have also noticed that some aw have adopted the racial attitudes of ww. I have also noticed that these aw will let the ww disrespect them but these same aw will turn up their noses at other WOC. It’s very strange
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Abagond –
First of all Happy Father’s Day to you and all of the fathers (not just biological) on this site!!!
Second, I think a great thread would be about the relationships (good or bad) between black men and black women. It is obvious that there are issues, it is hard to pinpoint who is right or wrong of if anyone is for that matter.
It seems to me as a black woman that a lot of groups (white men and women, the media and in my opinion, especially some black men) have become increasingly hostile towards black women.
It would be interesting to get certain points of view without pointing fingers and placing blame, but addressing what exactly are the issues.
Another thing I wanted to mention was that one man on this blog mentioned weight and black women (being a problem). I don’t understand this only being attributed as a physical trait by black women when the majority of white women that I see with black men are usually not in the best shape. A matter of fact, they are usually pretty overweight. Also, they usually work as a waitress while a black woman working as a waitress is seen as lower class and maybe even ghetto. Am I the only one that notices this?
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Camille said:
For those of you who dont know Mr Laurelton Queens blog is a Black woman hate blog. If you want to see Menelik Charles bash Black women every week you should visit that website and click on comments.
Menelik asks:
dear Camille, for the benefit of the good readers on this blog, could you please provide a link, a single word, a sentence or (better still) a paragraph in which I “bash Black women”?
I wish you every success in your efforts to do so!
Regards.
Menelik Charles
London England
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I have to say that this thread has discouraged me from any further participation at the blog. It’s not at all Abagond’s fault and I’m not saying people don’t have a right to post their opinions within the commenting guidelines. But the misogyny against black women and the defenses of that misogyny, on a post which is supposed to be about racism and white women, has really left me reeling.
I tried to see why all this came up and I see it started with a dispute over whether or not white women are less racist than white men. The men said white women are less racist. The women argued otherwise.
Black women are much more likely to encounter racism from white women, because as women we’re more likely to be around them. They are frequently our doctors, professors, bosses, nurses, PTA fellows, in-laws, etc. Sometimes they are our mothers. They are the ones behind the makeup and jewelry counters, they are the first line of “defense” against us. They are the mothers who don’t want our kids to play with theirs. They are the ones by and large writing the beauty articles and running the feminist websites. They are not exotic to us; they’re literally and/or figuratively in our faces ALL.THE.TIME.
So clearly, just by experience we would know a lot more about their insidious racism. But we are not trusted by black men, who have no rational reason to deny our words, our knowledge, and our experience. Believe me brother, anything you say about how white men do you, I’ll believe you. But because we are lowly women, we can’t be trusted?
There is no debate. White women are just as racist as white men. I don’t care if they’re socialized to be polite (that is not the same as empathy), and I don’t care if they’ll let black men between their legs and bear their children. Put a white woman in a position of power (like Ms. Brewer, right up at the top of the post) and see if she don’t do just like a white man. But for the most part, they exercise their racism in other ways.
Now this could have been an interesting thread about all of the ways racism manifests differently when expressed by women versus by men. Instead it has turned into a bash of black women. Be honest, does that even make rational sense?
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Danila said:
I have to say that this thread has discouraged me from any further participation at the blog. The misogyny against Black women, and the defenses of that misogyny, on a post which is supposed to be about racism and white women, has really left me reeling.
Menelik asks:
Danila, I respect your finer feelings, but could you take a moment to give us an explicit, preferably quoted, example of the “misogyny against Black women” you speak of?
Danila said:
it started with a dispute over whether or not white women are less racist than white men. The men said white women are less racist. The women argued otherwise.
Menelik asks:
hello again, Danila. Could you possibly give me the number of men who argued that “white women are less racist than white men”?
Thanks
Menelik Charles
London England
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menlik charles_ I dont have to. They can visit the laurelton queens blog to see all your hate filled comments about bw. As far as misogony against bw you, lies be told and laurelton queens are perfect examples. You called another bw poster here a tw@t You constantly question bw’s feelings and experiences. Bw have ti fight racism from some ww and then will have to deal with sexism of some bm(like you). DEAL WITH IT
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@ Danila:
well-stated. I’m not sure whether I agree with your conclusion or not, but that is the kind of reasoned argument that this thread needs.
Don’t feel discouraged.
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Danila- Very good points. Please don’t be discouraged from participating here. The actions of some of the men here are pathetic and are proof that a lot of people suffer from self hatred. I am SO happy to not be around men like this in real life
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Look Camille,
I don’t have to deal with lies you spread about me! I have been called all sorts of names on here in virtually every post and now you are weirdly insisting you need provide no evidence to support your slurs!
What sort of person insists on the truth of something without providing evidence.? I say again, I have never attacked any Black woman (disagreed with, yes) and I have neither kissed, dated nor had sex with an Asian woman in my entire life! And nor do I own a blog or post on Bro Laurelton’s blog every week or even every two months!
There is no evidence any where on this earth to prove otherwise so kindly stop spreading malicious lies, and do, instead, get a life!
Menelik Charles
London England
PS Abagond, delete this post at your leisure!
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There is no debate. White women are just as racist as white men. I don’t care if they’re socialized to be polite (that is not the same as empathy), and I don’t care if they’ll let black men between their legs and bear their children. Put a white woman in a position of power (like Ms. Brewer, right up at the top of the post) and see if she don’t do just like a white man. But for the most part, they exercise their racism in other ways.
This was my point exactly. Thanks for articulating this so well, lord knows I couldnt
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LOL: Politeness and empathy are not the same thing by a long shot! But people are often fooled all the same.
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Danilla,
I kinda felt the same as you. This is strange to me since I don’t see this kind of display irl (thank goodness!). But, don’t be discouraged because, fortunately, these types of men are not the norm. Your comment was well stated.
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And here is part of the problem, in assessing whether White women are racist as men
“PUT a white woman in a position of power (like Ms. Brewer, right up at the top of the post) and see if she don’t do just like a white man”.
In all probability I believe if White women had the same power as White men, then I think you would see a similar pattern of racism, genocide etc.
With regard to some of the responses here on this thread, I still have the feeling that many of the responses have an ‘ulterior motive’
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temple,
“I knew all intelligent discussion was over the minute LIES B OLD walked thru the door.”
LOL!
Same.
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Eurasian Sensation,
“Its a shame for men to assume that black women only criticise white women because they are jealous “haters”. Likewise, men should be able to judge that perhaps white women are less racist (whether that is correct or not)”
One thing I need you to clarify is this:
By saying white women are “less racist” do you mean
(1) Some white women are racist, and some are not, therefore they as a group are less racist than white men
OR
(2) All white women are racist, but their racism as a whole is less “intense” than that of white men’s
??? If the latter, I would ask how are you measuring the intensity of a group’s racism, and moreover, why is it important?
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Danila, don’t go! 😦
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There is no debate. White women are just as racist as white men. I don’t care if they’re socialized to be polite (that is not the same as empathy), and I don’t care if they’ll let black men between their legs and bear their children. Put a white woman in a position of power (like Ms. Brewer, right up at the top of the post) and see if she don’t do just like a white man. But for the most part, they exercise their racism in other ways.
Preach.
I would argue they are even more insidiously racist. White Woman’s Tears, anyone? Missing White Woman Syndrome, anyone?
And as for the black men they let between their legs and sometimes bear, aren’t they the very first ones to get blamed for missing and/or murdered white children?
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Danila
I feel the same way. Excellent points. I read Abagond because I feel VERY supported, appreciated and listened to, am sure others feel the same. Some detractors make it very disheartening, with their attempts to undermine what Abagond is doing. Ignore them! I can’t even co-sign without being accused of starting conflict! smh
I hope you stick around though, this blog should get it’s mojo back 😉
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@J
“I am afraid to say that your understanding…..”
I am afraid to say that you are obviously a moron who tries to use big words to cover up the fact you cannot comprehend what I am talking about well enough to craft an answer.
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Eshowoman,
I DID craft a response but presumably it was a response that was NOT to your liking and hence the need to throw insults on your part.
If what I said regarding the Nationalist view that Black females are ultimately utilising a White/Euro-centred perspective of ‘feminism’ and do not have knowledge regard to ‘African women and their own role in history’ should be the source of contention
Then I think it would be much easier to critique this position, than level a pejorative term which have no basis, from the dialogue we have been involved with thus far.
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They make comments as to your work ethic. For example they will constantly harp on how lazy some of the racialized staff are. When they are questioned as to why they are singling out blacks, they go into the ‘white woman’ tears mode. Their eyes tear up, their lips start to quiver, their nose starts to run. This is where the sh#t hits the fan! When it is pointed out that there are just as many lazy white folk in the work place, the sobbing starts. At this point they are adamant(in between the sobs), that they are not racist, you are. When it is pointed out that laziness is not particular to one group, they are at a total loss for words! At this point they may become hysterical. Hopefully there is another person(s) in the area to come to their rescue and to assure them that they are not racist. At this point they will turn on the mean negress who caused this poor white woman to cry. Now, if you are an ornery ol’ cuss, such as myself, you will not give a damn and keep going, and tell the woman, and by extension her supporters; “If they shoe fits, wear it”! At this point all h$ll breaks loose. You abruptly cut your ‘conversation’ short and leave. This is a true story.
Funny how many of these white women will come to you in order to invalidate someone else’ accusation of racism proffered on them. In most cases, the other person was right! Agreeing or giving a neutral answer to their queries, will cause this type of break down. Others respond with out and out cussing! You will then see how ‘polite they are. This is based on a true experience. An experience I might add, is not unique and appears to be par for the course. I have seen others experience this in varying degrees. Some respondents are flabbergasted and back down. Some respond with anger, even resorting to cussing. There are a couple of white women where I work who routinely cuss out, you guessed it, black and other racialized women. Three of the black women have lodged formal complaints. Another black woman was at a total loss for words. This same woman cussed out another black woman, who in turn gave as good as she got. A couple of these lunatics do this routinely and when called out will have the audacity to come and ask me if I think they are racist or if what they did was racist. Does a bear sh(t in the woods? Needless to say, they do-not receive validation from me. Now you may ask, why not try to ‘educate’ these white women. Well it is like this; 1. the white women are not signing my paycheck; 2. I am not here to be abused; 3. I ain’t here to ‘educate’ you, you are an irritant, much like a boil on my bum; 4. I couldn’t care less if you are racist because deep down you know you are and are being disingenuous; 5. If you don’t realize you are, then you are an idiot, and explaining anything to you will only bring on more blubbering and tears; 6. You ain’t interested in learning anything and are only trying to deflect any ensuing action taken that may result from your racism, yes, you are probably a racist. In essence, you are one dumb heifer! Go try your tactics on some unsuspecting ‘kerchief head’, who will give you an audience, commiserate with you, assure you that you are not racist, the one accusing you is a trouble making negro(this same self-loathing gear box, will approach you later and reprimand you for ‘causing trouble’). The white woman will then feel ‘validated’ , and you will be someone to avoid. So it can work in your favour! No this isn’t a joke or the ‘Twilight Zone’, this has actually happened to me and others on numerous occasions!
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Up front, I think blanket stereotyping is almost as bad as bigotry itself but assuming a 66% probability, here’s my 2 cents.
I have experienced white women in western societies to be more opportunistic than women of minorities. They can be as racist as men but can also suddenly become ‘colour blind’ when it serves their purpose. I’ve seen white women literally creeping up the arses of their black or other non-white superiors. Although it sometimes seemed to me like they do that just to annoy their female peers, they also often get on that way.
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@ Herneith
*bows*
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@ J
“Nationalist view that Black females are ultimately utilising a White/Euro-centred perspective of ‘feminism’ and do not have knowledge regard to ‘‘African women and their own role in history’
I have a feeling that you are too ignorant to understand how nonsensical and deeply insulting this statement the above statement is.
What “Nationalist” view are you babbling about? Why do you keep capitalizing the word nationalist in the middle of sentence against the rules of English grammar?
The term nationalist s several meanings including:
1 -patriot: one who loves and defends his or her country
2- an advocate of national independence of or a strong national government
3- devotion to the interests or culture of a particular nation including promoting the interests of one country over those of others
Have you created a “special” definition of “nationalism” to use only when you are insulting black women?
As far as I can fathom you saying that black women are blindly supporting white centered feminism, since we are too stupid and know nothing about our “true” historic role as African women.
WTF??? Please tell me what is this “role in history” that millions of black women know nothing about, please enlighten us, since we are obviously wandering around in the dark without this ancient knowledge.
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Esho, J will tell you that any definition of feminism which he disagrees with is not “African centered” and his use of “nationalism”, especially as a capitalized word, needs to be taken in the context of his Garveyite beliefs. To Garveyites and most proto-fascists “Nation” is the same as “race” or “people”. So when J says “Nationalist” he means it in roughly the same sense that Adolf Hitler meant it, as a quasi-biological political unit embarcing all members of the same race in an overarrching politics.
This use of “nationalism” goes far beyond the typical liberal, illuminist use of the term. Though why J considers a concept like this – philosophically rooted as it is in the works of people like Gobineau and Madison Grant – to be “afrocentric” is completely beyond me.
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Oh, and I bet you dollars to donuts that J’s view of the “historic role of African women” is some variant on “mothers to the race”.
Please surprise me, J.
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Recently I went to visit one of my best friend in her hometown. I have avoided this for years since she has told me how racist her family can be. She has called me from family gathering when she could not stand how many times her FOX infatuated relatives have used the n-word. I have never been able to convince her to fight her own battles, instead she always wishes I was there to my angry black woman act for them.
My friend recently lost her father and I could not put off going to see her any longer. Her mother and sister were on their best behavior and her other sister did not bother to show up to meet me. I accidentally forgot my night clothes and my friend gave me on of her mother tee shirts to sleep in. Her mom saw me an her face went pale. She told me that I looked so good in it that I could keep it. I love my friend dearly and we have been through a lot together, but she is an exception to the rule. The interaction between white women and black men is marked by desire that negates their racism, be black women get their disdain, exclusion and racism regularly.
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Wow. Just… wow.
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Eshowoman,
Just briefly,
1. With regard to:
“I have a feeling that you are too ignorant to understand how nonsensical and deeply insulting this statement the above statement is.”
Forgive me here, its either you are aware of the political ideas and thoughts on the ‘ground’ or you are not.
It appears as if you are not familiar with the argument – which is more than fair enough
2. With regard to having a knowledge of African history. I can only site your example when you raised thr issue of FGM, even when I specifically referred to pre-colonial Africa.
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Okay I know I’m going back and forth but after having a long discussion with my father about the topic of white women being less racist he said that is incorrect. He said that white women are just as racist as white men. He said that white women look down on blacks just as much as wm sometimes more so because of the pedestal society puts them on. He went on to say that during his childhood his mother would not allow him and his brothers to go downtown and most of the time they were unable to leave their neighborhood because his mother did not want them to become victims of lynchings because of the lies some white women told. He said that white women have no problem with black women being mistreated they didn’t care that black women had to sit on the back of the bus while everyone gave ww their seat. He said that even in this day and age with him being disabled and in his sixties white women still lock their car doors as he pass by. The turning point for me was when my father was a child he witnessed a ww spit in my great grandmothers face. He told me to not be blinded by the “kindness” of a few because their “kindness” may very well be pity or guilt. He said Herneiths comment stood out the most “Remember that old saying; “The hand that rocks the cradle, rules the world.” He said if white men are racist assume white women are too because the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. The older I get the more I appreciate my fathers advice. His opinion and experience helped me come to my final conclusion that ww are equally racist as wm. case closed
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Thad,
Isn’t life strange…???
I just like the way you as a ‘liberal’ have to jump on any anything that is ultimatey ‘too pro-Black’.
I can remember not that long ago you ‘dissed’ Eshowoman on your own blog. You even chose to name her also.
Now the table has turned, Eshowoman makes refernce to ‘nationalist’ and cue the ‘liberal’ (ie yourself) who feels threatened ultimately when anything that is too pro-Black in your perception, and that ultimately seems to threaten White Supremacy hegemony.
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@leaveumthinking:
Just reading about what happened to your great grandmother made my blood boil. Although my late grandmother (God bless her) wasn’t spat on, she encountered a ww who got into her face and yelled at her for not moving fast enough saying, “Asians can’t drive! The least they could do is walk faster!” My grandmother was taking her daily walk after she had hip replacement surgery. English wasn’t her first language, but she knew enough to understand what the woman said.
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373 comments later…I’m fashionably late to the party. LOL.
Where to begin?
First off, Nastasha W, your true colors came out in this post, didn’t they? LOL. You don’t seem to have much love for black men. Perhaps, you and some of the other female-identified commenters on this post have had one too many negative experiences with black men. I will never negate anyone’s experiences but to throw every individual who fits a certain demographic under the bus because of bad experiences or perceptions is just wrong. Don’t we all complain about how white folks do that to us???
The venom spewed towards black men in this post shows how looked down upon black men really are. This is a post about white women but looked what this post (quickly) descended into: a black-on-black gender war!!! White America has trained black Americans very well to hate themselves more than they hate them (the oppressors). Wow. This disturbs me on so many levels.
Just to correct some misperceptions, spewed by some including Natasha, in this post:
1. Black men, overall, do not prize white women….by far. I live/lived between the Northeast and the Southeast. In both cases, the very vast majority of black men dated, married and procreated with black women. (And obviously liked it that way). I know countless black men…only a handful are in an interracial relationship. To say that black men don’t love black women really hurts.
2. The vast majority of “non-black”- as if all women who are not black should be dumped in the same pile- ARE NOT INTERESTED in black men romantically. They either want someone of their own ethnicity or a white man. Few want a black man. So, that dispells the whole “all the black men are in an IR relationship” myth. It jibes with reality.
3. In no way, shape or form are black men favored over black women. No way in hell. Who attends and graduates from college more? Who gets more money? We can all answer those questions.
Hell, the comments on this board quickly dispel the false idea of black men being “put on a pedestal” over black women!!! Again, this was a post about white women’s racism and look what it turned into! LOL.
White America trains its “minorities” well, I tell you.
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Now onto this post topic:
White women less racist? LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It’s actually quite the opposite.
I have always found white women to be a tad more racist than their male counterparts. I have found many (not all) white women to have a nasty sense of entitlement (instilled in them by white society) as well as a generally bitchy, conceited attitude towards non-whites and whites alike.
Hell, look up clips of female white supremacists. They tend to a lot more outspoken than their male counterparts.
The idea of white women being less racist is hilarious. Why would be they be less racist? That idea reeks of sexism. As if women are supposed to be “softer, sweeter, quietier, friendlier”. LOL. Gimme a break!
I think the reason white women tend to be “more outwardly racist” is because women tend to be more openly snobby or catty than men are.
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One more thing:
We’ve already stated the reality of the vast majority of black men (the world over) not being in an IR relationship (and not really desiring to be in one)…but for the small but visible percentage who are in a BM/BW relationship because black men “prize” white women. LOL. Get real!
It takes two to tango!
So for that (decidely smallish) percantage of individuals in a BM/WW relationship…the white woman obviously desires black men (or that black man)!
Last time I checked, women pick men. Not the other way around. Very few men can just get any woman they want. They usually make an offer and the woman either takes him up on it or refuses. 8 times out 10, the woman does the latter.
But all of this is common knowledge and neither here nor there because white women are just as racist (and I argue a bit more) as their male counterparts. (To think they are not reeks of sexism, as I stated above.) And will damn sure not be doing anything with a black man any time soon because of those bigoted mindsets.
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My grandmother worked as a maid in her teens. These people used to do all sorts of things to ‘trap’ her. They would leave twenty dollar bills lying on the mantle. My grandmother would dust around the bills. After several weeks, the employer would ask if she saw the twenty dollar bills lying around. My granny’s reply? “On the mantle where you left it two weeks ago”. Needles to say, they were embarrassed. Another ’employer’ didn’t like the way she mopped the floors. She started criticizing her and ended her tirade with calling her a lazy n-word. My granny picked up the mop and threatened to beat her with it . The woman threatened to call the police. At which point my grandmother threatened to beat her like a ‘red headed step-child” . If she was going to jail, she would make it worth her while. With that she quit. The woman never carried out her threat. It seems this blatant racism has gone underground and now manifests in a more subtle manner.
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@ Natasha W:
By saying white women are “less racist” do you mean
(1) Some white women are racist, and some are not, therefore they as a group are less racist than white men
OR
(2) All white women are racist, but their racism as a whole is less “intense” than that of white men’s
??? If the latter, I would ask how are you measuring the intensity of a group’s racism, and moreover, why is it important?
As I’m not American and have little experience with white American women, and have no experience of being black, anything I offer is only speculation from someone with an interest in social demographics and attitudes. While people’s personal experiences with white women as expressed here are valuable, it does not tell the whole story; I think it’s important to consider things on a macro as well as micro level.
Out of the 2 choices you offer me, I’d probably go with (2).
It’s important only because the title of Abagond’s post asks the question. My answer is “possibly – but only a little”.
It is only based on my experiences observing men and women (of any colour) in general. I feel that men are on the whole conditioned to be a little less compassionate than women, which means that they might be a little more racist.
Maybe – I’m not even sure, and it doesn’t even matter to me. I certainly have no interest in defending white American women. But Abagond asks an interesting question, which is interesting to speculate over. My mild dissatisfaction with this thread is that there appears to be only one possible answer which is ideologically acceptable.
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Just like there are some Black women who blindly support “their men” right or wrong, it is not surprising that there are White women who support White men, racist warts and all.That’s just life and not at all surprising.
Why would White women separate themselves from their male counterparts? Most Whites marry other Whites — they have a strong sense of identity and community that appears to be missing from the so-called Black community.
I would like to see a study of American racism to see how pervasive it really is. Maybe I am living in la-la land, but it doesn’t appear to be a big factor where I live (Surburban Washington, D.C.). Crime, poverty, fatherless homes, etc., appears to be the bigger problem amongst working class Blacks where I live.
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With regard to:
“Crime, poverty, fatherless homes, etc., appears to be the bigger problem amongst working class Blacks where I live”.
Here we have that tri-variable of factors in ‘oppression ‘Women, Race and CLASS’.
Is that not a book by Angela Davis, which therein she discusses all of the above variables with regard to Blacks (male and females) in U.S, over the past 400 years or so if I have remembered correctly??
And again if I have remembered correctly, she finds the White women complicit to racism etc in US.
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ES,
Observing how you respond to posts generally. I am surprised you agreed to suggest, admittedly you were working with choices that were not your own. When you said that:
“Out of the 2 choices you offer me, I’d probably go with (2).
viz. “ALL white women are racist, but their racism as a whole is less “intense” than that of white men’s”.
What I would say is that the way humans being are made, by the socialisition of culture. Then only few people can essentially get beyond this. In other words most people are ‘trapped’ in what the culture has prescribed.
There will be some who may be able to get away from the culture, using hypothetical figures, 40% or even 60% but will have a degree of racism nonetheless, since it is hard to exist as a ‘human’ outside society and culture.
Equally, even the most radical of Black persons cannot
TOTALLY escape the fall-out of racist ideologies e.g. Malcolm X.
In spite of the above I would say that there will be a few ‘enlightened’ Whites who more or less will be able to escape the culture of racism, to a large degree, but not many. Perhaps the best example in U.S. would be John Brown (from the little I know historically).
So I just wanted to comment on the ALL aspect of what you alluded too.
What do you think of my comments here, if anything at all??
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@J
I just like the way you as a ‘liberal’ have to jump on any anything that is ultimatey ‘too pro-Black’.
Be fair, now J. My critique of your neo-Garveyite beliefs is and always has been that they are based in European notions of racialism and have very strong and unfortunate resonances with fascism.
In other words, my problem with your ideology isn’t that it’s “too black”: it’s that it’s rewarmed European crap painted up in blackface.
It ain’t “afro” anything, J.
I can remember not that long ago you ‘dissed’ Eshowoman on your own blog. You even chose to name her also.
Sorry, J, that’s a lie. I certainly didn’t diss Eshowoman. In fact, I thanked her for provoking me to think about how to present an overview of Brazilian “whitening” theory to people who know nothing about it.
If thanking someone is dissing them in your lexicon, there’s not much I can do about that.
Here’s the link, btw, for anyone who wants to see this so-called “diss” for themselves:
http://omangueblog.blogspot.com/2010/02/whitening-theory-in-brazil.html#comments
Now the table has turned, Eshowoman makes refernce to ‘nationalist’ and cue the ‘liberal’ (ie yourself) who feels threatened ultimately when anything that is too pro-Black in your perception, and that ultimately seems to threaten White Supremacy hegemony.
J, first of all, in spite of your straw men, we are on the same side when it comes to white supremacy. We both hate it and would like to see it gone. Where we disagree is with regards to fascism, which I don’t support regardless of the color of the people who promote it. I do not think that black fascism is the only way one can eliminate white supremacy. In fact, I’d say history shows that to be the case.
As for me being a liberal…
It’s interesting to me that “liberal” has now become the most offensive curse word available among fanatics of whatever political stripe. What you REALLY mean to say, J, is not that you’re against “liberalism” (for I am hardly a liberal in the classic sense) but that you are against tolerance. In your ideal world, there’d be only one political position, the “correct” one: yours. You abominate any freethinking outside of the political box you’d construct for the world and this is the “liberality” that you are so pissed off at.
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Back on topic, the problem with questions like this is that they presume that racism is some sort of quantifiable substance. It’s rather like asking “Which ocean is wetter, the Pacific or the Atlantic?”
It also presumes that there’s some sort of unified and homogenous form of racism. In short, it thinks of racism as a sort of radiation which can be acurately measured and compared.
The problem is that there are many different types of racism, not just one. Men’s and women’s experiences with racism also vary greatly, as do the ways racism is enacted versus this ot that group and in this or that society.
In other words, racism is a chaotic structure, not some sort of nice, newtonian mass which can be accurately measured, wieghed and plotted.
A better question would thus be “In what ways are white women’s racism towards black men and black women different from white men’s racism towards the same?”
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Tautology??
It also presumes that there’s some sort of unified and homogenous form of racism. In short, it thinks of racism as a sort of radiation which can be acurately measured and compared.
=
A better question would thus be “In what ways are white women’s racism towards black men and black women different from white men’s racism towards the same?”
Personally we often get trapped in the ‘scientific method’, as if this is the only way knowledge can be obtained.
So we have semantic debates on the definition of terms, or what a term may actually mean. We seek for things to be quantifiably measured and/or observed.
Although these things have a usefulness in the real world and on a chatboard.
Many times it can be used as a tool to negate and/or deflect from an essence of an argument also.
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mynameismyname,
First off, Nastasha W, your true colors came out in this post, didn’t they? LOL. You don’t seem to have much love for black men. Perhaps, you and some of the other female-identified commenters on this post have had one too many negative experiences with black men. I will never negate anyone’s experiences but to throw every individual who fits a certain demographic under the bus because of bad experiences or perceptions is just wrong. Don’t we all complain about how white folks do that to us???”
I never said all black men. In fact, I clearly specified the kind of black men that I was talking about: self-loathers. So, no, I haven’t had bad experiences with black men (on the whole).
Black men, overall, do not prize white women….by far. I live/lived between the Northeast and the Southeast. In both cases, the very vast majority of black men dated, married and procreated with black women. (And obviously liked it that way).
I’ve also lived between these two regions and I don’t think that all black men prize white women (although I’ve seen way more black men/white women in the South). However, many people seem to downplay the segment that do prize them, and other non-black women. In fact, tbe latest stats on interracial marriage shows that almost 15 percent of black men are married to white women (those stats are around somewhere if anyone wants to see them). Considering that only about 35 percent of black men are married, period, you can figure out how many are married to black women. Not that I’m dogging this: interracial marriages get the thumbs up from me, but let’s not pretend it’s anything but.
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Personally we often get trapped in the ‘scientific method’, as if this is the only way knowledge can be obtained.
It certainly isn’t the ONLY method for obtaining knowledge, that’s for sure.
But I’m not so much advocating science here as logic and clarity of thought.
I mean, it seems to me, looking at the above, that people are clearly showing that there are different ways in which white women and men typically utiliza racism. Charting those out would seem to be a lot more fruitful excercize than swapping ad hominems back and forth, spiked with stories about how this or that personal experience “proves” that the other sex is “really” more racist.
Many times it can be used as a tool to negate and/or deflect from an essence of an argument also.
Most of the “argument” above can be boiled down to “Black men suck!” – “No they don’t! Black women suck!”
Some argument.
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Eurasian Sensation,
Thanks for your reply. My response would be similar to Thad’s: I don’t think that racism can be quanitified and measured on an ascending scale in that way. My previous responses were in regards to option number 1 (some are racist, some are not, and the number that are not is higher than that of white men).
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I’ve also lived between these two regions and I don’t think that all black men prize white women (although I’ve seen way more black men/white women in the South). However, many people seem to downplay the segment that do prize them, and other non-black women.
In our field work in Rio, we see black American tourists paired up with noticeably lighter women about 75% of the time and white American tourists paired up with noticeably darker women about the same amount.
It seems to me that Americans have made such a big deal about interracial sexual connact that it’s become something of a fetish for men of both groups.
Where the white supremacy comes in is that black men are much more likely to marry white women because white women are still situated as higher on social totem pole and marriage is, above all else, a status thing.
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Actually, Natasha, I think all white people are racist. Some are aware of being so and take steps against it, most are not.
It’s like being an alcoholic: either you recognize that you have a problem or you don’t, but you never get to the point where you can say “I’m a non-alcoholic!”
If you’re looking for that in white people, you’re bound to be cruelly disappointed.
That said, the older I get and the more I learn, the more I begin to see that white supremacy (if not racism) has infected pretty much everyone, at least in Brazil and the States.
The discussion above shows me, at least, that we’ve got a lot of “alcoholics” out there, of varying colors.
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Cheers Thad,
With regard to
“Charting those out would seem to be a lot more fruitful excercize than swapping ad hominems back and forth, spiked with stories about how this or that personal experience “proves” that the other sex is “really” more racist”.
However, I have argued from the outset that this is what the thread is ultimately about ie ‘ulterior motives’ and many of the answers reveal the ‘motives’ of the commentators rather than truly to answer the question in an ‘objective’ way.
This is also supported by your contention, when you say:
‘Most of the “argument” above can be boiled down to “Black men suck!” – “No they don’t! Black women suck!” ‘
Also I would like to add at the same time, hopefully not a tautology. For those who have answered ‘sincerely’ all they can do is to go off their experiences. You have to remember that commentators have utilised their respective experiences to suggest that ‘White women are not racist’ and that they are.
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Thad,
“Actually, Natasha, I think all white people are racist. Some are aware of being so and take steps against it, most are not.”
Eh, I wouldn’t say all are, but the majority are, in some way (speaking of white Americans here). I was debating that this is true of white women, not just white men.
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Thad,
With regard to:
“Where the white supremacy comes in is that black men are much more likely to marry white women because white women are still situated as higher on social totem pole and marriage is, above all else, a status thing”.
Do you have any thoughts why these White women choose to marry Black men. A point I had raised earlier especially with regard to the ‘stereotype’ that women are ‘passive’ in the dating game??
It may also provide some insight into the quesion of the thread also.
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Thad,
“In our field work in Rio, we see black American tourists paired up with noticeably lighter women about 75% of the time and white American tourists paired up with noticeably darker women about the same amount.
It seems to me that Americans have made such a big deal about interracial sexual connact that it’s become something of a fetish for men of both groups.
Where the white supremacy comes in is that black men are much more likely to marry white women because white women are still situated as higher on social totem pole and marriage is, above all else, a status thing.”
I’m glad you said it. If I or any other female says this same thing, we are branded a “hater” or bitter from bad experience. 🙄
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Forgive me, I still stand by my perception of the differing self-hate and/or Black Skin White Masks cariacutures.
I would not use the word ‘haters’, if I would use that term Then it would be regard to ‘self and race’ rather than men per se.
Since all reflections ultiMately start with ourselves and then are projected outward to the ‘other’
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And I should add also that I sense there is also an anti-African American (and diaspora) vis-a-vis those from Africa continent/culture
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Do you have any thoughts why these White women choose to marry Black men. A point I had raised earlier especially with regard to the ‘stereotype’ that women are ‘passive’ in the dating game??
Well, first of all, I learned a long time ago not to try to descry psychology from sociology. There’s a hell of a lot of factors which go into a decision to marry and race is only one of them, and probably a rather small one at that. It certainly isn’t determinative, in my experience.
But all other factors being equal, you do see a swing to one side or another, so yeah, race does have an effect.
The traditional sociological argument for why more white women mary black men than black men marry white women is that black men and white women are in the middle of the race/gender heirarchy and are thus close to each other. Black women are at the bottom of this heirarchy and white men are at the top, so a marriage there is less likely.
Hypochromatic marriages (marriages between people of different colors) are more common than hypogamic marriages (marriages between people of different social positions). In other words, you’re more likely to marry a different colored person of your same social class than marry a different social class, but the same color.
So in class/status terms (class in the Weberian and not Marxist sense), white women and black men are more likely to be closer to each other than black women and white men.
The exception to this kind of proves the rule. Where do you see a significant number of black women marrying white men? In the higher ranks of academia, where you find more black women than black men, generally.
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@ Thad,
I don’t see the same in Salvador, but that is probably because most Black Americans aren’t there for the girls. I do see it with the Europeans in Salvador.
I have seen that in Rio. (Last time I was there was 2000, so it has been awhile.) I’m curious, do you ever see the White American tourist this way in Brazil? From what I recall, it was always the Europeans.
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Cheers for the response Thad,
Maybe I should not have asked teh question because it has opened up a ‘can of worms’ in my mind.
Some very good points nonetheless
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Natasha,
The vitriol you spewed towards black men earlier in this post spoke for itself.
Overall, do you think white women desire black men since as I said, it takes two to tango and women almost always pick the man, not the other way around?
How were the BM/WW couples you saw in the South received? How did whites react to them?
The vast majority of black men still marry/date black women. Although I know the stat you’re referring to and it pertained to all black IR marriages, not just to whites.
And you have to consider that the good majority of non-black women do not want a black man for the same reasons that the good majority of white men aren’t exactly rushing to be with a black woman.
In other words, if this “segment” of BM just think they can get any non-black woman they desire, they’re sadly mistaken. A black man looking to date non-black exclusively has a life of rejection in his future. Do you agree with this?
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mynameismyname,
The vitriol you spewed towards black men earlier in this post spoke for itself. “
What about the “vitriol” directed towards black women in this post? Comments?
And look, I’m not apologizing for anything I said in this post. I wasn’t trashing black men or anyone else. I thought it should be obvious that of the comments I did make, I was speaking of some black men and not all, just like when I speak of whites or anyone else, I’m speaking of some and not all.
“Overall, do you think white women desire black men since as I said, it takes two to tango and women almost always pick the man, not the other way around?”
No, I don’t think so.
“How were the BM/WW couples you saw in the South received? How did whites react to them?”
They are pretty much ignored by whites because they are fairly common.
“Although I know the stat you’re referring to and it pertained to all black IR marriages, not just to whites. “
I don’t think you do, because the one I’m referring to cited specifically black/white pairings.
“A black man looking to date non-black exclusively has a life of rejection in his future. Do you agree with this?”
Well, not if he is rich and/or famous, extremely goodlooking, or surrounded by non-whites most of the time. I’ve known everyday black men that fall in the last category and they’ve successfully dated non-blacks pretty much exclusively.
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“…women almost always pick the man, not the other way around?”
Also, I don’t know if this is really true. I think both have an equal say in initiating relationships, but both sexes would argue that the other has the upper hand. Sure, women can choose whether to accept or reject a man, but first the man has to choose her, based on her looks, personality, and other attributes. They can’t reject men that are never showing interest in them.
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Natasha,
I’d agree with you. Since most women aren’t interested in asking men out, their options are automatically limited to the men that approach them. A woman’s standards don’t matter if no men ever talk to her in the first place.
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Natasha,
There were many disgusting comments made about black men and black women in this post and many others.
And then you and others say that non-blacks are so eager to date blacks?! LOL. Comments like many of the ones posted in this thread show that blacks themselves have assimiliated the anti-black attitudes that the U.S. was built upon. What makes you think these non-blacks don’t think these thoughts just as much if not more? If you don’t like yourself, who in the heck will???
Why do you think the majority of white women aren’t exactly tripping over themselves to be with a black man?
I’m curious.
America is pretty segregrated so the amount of blacks who lived mainly around whites won’t be too high. Also acknowledge that black men who grow up in largely non-black environments also face much rejection on the romantic front. As do many black women.
Also what’s the percentage of black men in America who are rich and/or famous? Do the majority of black men look like Denzel Washington/Morris Chestnutt?
(For what it’s worth, the majority of rich/famous black men including the two actors I named are all with black women.)
What makes you think women don’t pursue men? No matter who throws the bait first, women chose their mates. Men don’t.
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With regard to:
“I’d agree with you. Since most women aren’t interested in asking men out, their options are automatically limited to the men that approach them. A woman’s standards don’t matter if no men ever talk to her in the first place”
Forgive me here, I have the feeling that this is based on the stereotype of the ‘passivity’ of woman in the dating game.
A woman will be able to attract men by the signals she gives off to prospective partners, even before the male has even spoken.
So although the woman may not have asked the man out. She has placed herself in a position, where she can be asked out by the males.
Was there not a study or series of study that revealed how on some levels it is the women who chooses the ‘mate’??
No???
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MNIMN and J,
Barring mind control, how can women choose their mates? Women can only choose out of what is available to them (in most cases). Unless she is going to ask him out, a woman who says “I want to date a doctor” cannot physically make a doctor ask her on a date. Even if she dresses up, wears makeup, and hangs out outside a hospital all day every day, there’s no guarantee that a doctor will ask her on a date. On the other hand, a man who wants to date a women who likes to wear pink shirts only has to approach a woman in a pink shirt to get the opportunity. I think both of you are talking about step two in the process (the “hook up”), but step two cannot happen before step one (the approach). Nine times out of ten, who approaches? Men.
Both men and women do make choices, but men choose from broader categories, e.g., “women who are standing in this room”, “women who ride the bus on Tuesdays”, etc. When women choose, a choice has already been made for them, because they choose a guy out of guys who have approached. So a guy has to make a decision to approach before the women can include him in her options list, whereas the reverse isn’t true. (Obviously that doesn’t apply to women who approach men, but that’s another can of worms.)
I’m sure both of you have had women give you signals before–how many of them did you approach? Unless it’s 100%, there’s no guarantee that a woman giving you signals will entice you or even interact with you at all. If you want to interact with a woman, you walk over there. Even if she rejects you, you had sole control over being put on her radar in the first place.
Oddly, I feel the “women entice men” argument labels men as simpletons, even though I’ve only ever heard it from men. It seems like men are equated with magpies (who like shiny things) or something. While research may show that men weigh physical characteristics more than women, that doesn’t necessarily mean they are less selective than women (or any less nuanced in their relationship choices) to the point that there’s a guaranteed formula to getting a man.
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@CoL
I’m curious, do you ever see the White American tourist this way in Brazil?
By the planeload.
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Even if she dresses up, wears makeup, and hangs out outside a hospital all day every day, there’s no guarantee that a doctor will ask her on a date. On the other hand, a man who wants to date a women who likes to wear pink shirts only has to approach a woman in a pink shirt to get the opportunity.
This is kind of an odd comparison, as it equates a class/status distinction (being a doctor) with a sartorial distinction (wearing a pink shirt).
Women can and do indeed ask men out. The only barrier there is women’s reluctance to be rejected, a thing men are expected to face without complaining. A woman with the same or higher social status level of a doctor could indeed ask a doctor out. My wife asked me out and we were both doctors (OK, doctoral candidates, but still). So why is this an impossibility? And a woman who wants a guy in a pink shirt is also logically just as able to ask him out as a guy is to ask her out.
It seems to me that you’re equating women’s RELUCTANCE to ask guys out with an inability to do so.
As my wife says “If you only wait around for guys to ask you, then you have no cause to complain about the guys who do. If you want something, you need to go after it.”
Furthermore, J’s correct: women have many ways of actively working a situation even if they don’t want to ask a guy out. If a woman knows that the guy she wants is going to be “choosing women who are standing in this room”, then she makes damned sure that she’s standing in that room, preferably right under his nose where he can’t miss her.
Sounds like being active to me.
Unless it’s 100%, there’s no guarantee that a woman giving you signals will entice you or even interact with you at all.
And you think guys have 100% control that women will interact with THEM? Guys get blown off all the time.
It seems like men are equated with magpies (who like shiny things) or something.
Or something, yes.
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A woman will be able to attract men by the signals she gives off to prospective partners, even before the male has even spoken.
So although the woman may not have asked the man out. She has placed herself in a position, where she can be asked out by the males.
Was there not a study or series of study that revealed how on some levels it is the women who chooses the ‘mate’??
I read a study that showed women who smiled and had more “receptive” body language where 50% more likely to be approached by men. When faced with a very attractive girl that didnt smile and a less attractive(cute?) girl that smiled and appeared friendly most males approached to the less attractive woman. Women can signal men in a non-verbal way…
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Thanks Y [ou],
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Thad,
Maybe you missed when I stated this above(?):
Nine times out of ten, who approaches? Men.
and this:
Obviously that doesn’t apply to women who approach men, but that’s another can of worms.
Most women don’t want to ask men out, even if they never get asked out. Plenty will wait around in vain and complain, with it never occurring to them to go up to a man themselves. I personally think that’s their problem, but I don’t ask men out (never felt like I needed to) so I can see why they don’t want to. No woman wants to feel like the only way she can get a man is by asking him out while her friends do nothing and get plenty of attention.
I never disagreed with the statement that women ask men out (did anyone even make that statement?), I disagreed that a woman can make a man ask her out (and I mean make as in “guarantee”) by her actions. But maybe that’s just because I have a lot of experiences with watching college girls (and others) try so hard to get male attention and fail. Repeatedly. Check out a house party or a bar at night and get your fill of secondhand embarrassment.
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No, I got that. But it still seems to me that you’re presuming that this is some sort of innate female norm. Otherwise the argument doesn’t make sense because, after all, there are men who don’t approach women and they’ll have just as restricted a choice.
As for “guaranteeing”, I’m still at a loss as to how this changes anything. I mean, it seems to me that if you have an iron-clad rule that you won’t ask a guy out, but are still doing everything in your power to attract his attention, then you’ve decided to tie your own hands. This isn’t a gender or a social issue, then: it’s a psychological one.
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With regard to:
“I disagreed that a woman can make a man ask her out (and I mean make as in “guarantee”) by her actions. But maybe that’s just because I have a lot of experiences with watching college girls (and others) try so hard to get male attention and fail. Repeatedly’
Forgive me surely you must have seen males walk up to college females on the basis of how they are dressed??
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Thad,
I never said it was innate–I think women are socialized to expect men to approach them, and women are socialized to be the approacher. Since that’s supposed to be the “standard” (and it applies across other gender issues), women are praised for “being chosen” while men are praised based on the “quality” of their choice. I think men are more likely to have positive things to say about women who ask men out, because in the sexual competition among women, those who ask men out are “desperate” or “couldn’t get one otherwise”. There’s a stratification (often starting as early as middle school) between the “pretty girls” and the “others”–the pretty girls are the ones who have men falling all over them (a circumstance generally attributed to looks over personality), while the others are ignored. From that point, the “others” are socialized to work for what some women just receive “naturally” and are made to feel deficient because they break the natural order–men not asking them out is attributed to inadequacy. Asking men out just takes that a step order because you are apparently so unattractive that you have to violate gender norms (that’s the stereotype, not what I think). Men are judged from an active standpoint (how successful they are in asking a girl out), while women are judged from a passive one (how successful they are in getting men to ask them out, which you can’t prove retroactively).
I agree it’s a psychological issue, with the caveat that it’s a social one too (see above). For many women, playing the passive role and never getting asked out is better than the “cost” of crossing the line and asking a man out, because then one must “admit” to failing at the prescribed gender role.
*I feel most of this post describes younger (>30) women, since the sexual competition is heightened in high school, college, and early 20’s, in my opinion. Among young women, being a “man magnet” is powerful and enviable. And oddly, most of the women I know who have no problems with asking men out get asked out a lot themselves, so the either/or situation we’re socialized into often doesn’t transfer over to real life.
**I wish ES would jump into this conversation, since he mentioned on another blog that he took a girl asking him out less seriously since he didn’t “have to work for it”. I wonder how the fear of that happening (justified or not) shapes women’s reluctance to ask men out.
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(Abagond, I’m submitting again since I used women in place of men incorrectly in the first version)
Thad,
I never said it was innate–I think women are socialized to expect men to approach them, and men are socialized to be the approacher. Since that’s supposed to be the “standard” (and it applies across other gender issues), women are praised for “being chosen” while men are praised based on the “quality” of their choice. I think men are more likely to have positive things to say about women who ask men out, because in the sexual competition among women, those who ask men out are “desperate” or “couldn’t get one otherwise”. There’s a stratification (often starting as early as middle school) between the “pretty girls” and the “others”–the pretty girls are the ones who have men falling all over them (a circumstance generally attributed to looks over personality), while the others are ignored. From that point, the “others” are socialized to work for what some women just receive “naturally” and are made to feel deficient because they break the natural order–men not asking them out is attributed to inadequacy. Asking men out just takes that a step order because you are apparently so unattractive that you have to violate gender norms (that’s the stereotype, not what I think). Plus, men are judged from an active standpoint (how successful they are in asking a girl out), while women are judged from a passive one (how successful they are in getting men to ask them out, which you is harder to meet, because you can’t prove this retroactively).
I agree it’s a psychological issue, with the caveat that it’s a social one too (see above). For many women, playing the passive role and never getting asked out is better than the “cost” of crossing the line and asking a man out, because then one must “admit” to failing at the prescribed gender role.
*I feel most of this post describes younger (>30) women, since the sexual competition is heightened in high school, college, and early 20’s, in my opinion. Among young women, being a “man magnet” is powerful and enviable. And oddly, most of the women I know who have no problems with asking men out get asked out a lot themselves, so the either/or situation we’re socialized into often doesn’t transfer over to real life.
**I wish ES would jump into this conversation, since he mentioned on another blog that he took a girl asking him out less seriously since he didn’t “have to work for it”. I wonder how the fear of that happening (justified or not) shapes women’s reluctance to ask men out.
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Interesting. But then surely you see that it’s women playing to each other and not men?
Because if men do indeed like women who ask them out, a woman who does this has a competitive advantage. Why wouldn’t she use it? Because OTHER WOMEN see it as a cheat.
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J,
So you are saying that a scantily-clad woman is guaranteed to have the man she’s “signaling” approach? Reality says otherwise.
You seem to be missing the point that while a woman may be able to do things that increase her chances of being approached, nothing she does can make a man approach her. Would as many men approach a “2” in a bikini as an “8”? No, so wearing a bikini isn’t a fullproof way to get a man, least of all the man you want. If I walk out of the house naked I’m sure plenty of men will approach, but if the one I want doesn’t then none of that matters.
It seems like your statements only include conventionally attractive women. Few signals work if a woman is ugly.
Thad,
I guess that depends on a) whether men do like getting asked out and b) whether women believe men like women who ask them out. Even if (a) and (b) are true, women participate in “relationship ranking”, in which dating a guy who asked you out > dating a guy you asked out. You’re seen as “better”, especially during a time in which many women lament “guys not approaching like they used to.” I wouldn’t know if men compare their relationships (and use that as a reflection on the qualities of an individual), but women definitely do.
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Jasmin,
This is what the conservation in essence boils down to, I believe.
As long as you perceive women to be ‘passive’ which is a male stereotype of how women should be in all walks of life and including the dating game.
Then you will not be able to ‘see’ that women can indeed influence their choice of partner, in a pro-active way
Is the glass half-full or is it empty??
And bringing it back round slightly to the topic. One could ask what is it that the White females are doing to attract the males?
Or from your point of view are White females just merely
waiting on the ‘shop shelf’ for the man of their choice to walk in, in the hope they will be noticed , and asked out for a date subsequently??
Although this is not the appropriate blog, I am sure if you asked the females their perspective, you might be surprised. I saw some thing similar to this topic on the Robert Lindsay blog
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Or from your point of view are White females just merely
waiting on the ‘shop shelf’ for the man of their choice to walk in, in the hope they will be noticed , and asked out for a date subsequently??
Seems to me the females(average to attractive in looks) that get a lot of males are more flirtatious and talkative. I notice this because I not flirtatious nor talkative. I think its a balance. She wont ask the man on a date but she will approach him and talk about things that “set the atmosphere”. If he is quick he will catch onto what she is conveying and ask her on a date. If not…no date for the girl.
J, would you please provide the link to R. Lindsay?
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“Seems to me the females(average to attractive in looks) that get a lot of males are more flirtatious and talkative.:
Y, I agree. That explains why more “average” when are approached while the prettier ones aren’t.
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J,
I realize we are actually talking about 2 different things, because my point stands regardless of gender:
In a dating interaction, the approacher initially has more control than the approachee, because s/he is the one who initiates contact, thereby guaranteeing interaction between himself/herself and the intended. (Whether that interaction is successful is moot at this point.) Although it can be said that the approachee is able to “signal” (either positively or negatively, purposely or accidentally) the approacher, no such signal guarantees that the right approacher will approach or that anyone will approach at all (I find the former more important, since numbers don’t mean anything if the people approaching aren’t quality).
I used men vs. women because men tend to be the approacher and women the approached, but that stands regardless of gender–you can only force an interaction by approaching, and my experience with those most intent on waiting to be approached (and all the right signals) is that they tend to be the ones left waiting the most. Signalling benefits average-to-pretty women, but obviously those aren’t all women. So signalling as a strategy cannot apply to women as a gender (or approachees as a group). My disagreement with you thus touches on this last point, because making interactions a matter of abstract signals (taking into account no other factors) is a dangerous game (e.g., signals of consent during sexual assault) and can be a slap in the face to some women, since it usually turns into dating advice a la “If you smiled more, maybe you’d get a man”, which obviously doesn’t always follow.
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Islandgirl and Y,
I forgot to mention that I agree (it’s early, so I missed the caveat about “average to attractive”). 🙂 I think most women are aware of how they are “ranked” (by most men) and act accordingly.
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Jasmin,
I don’t think we are talking about:
“2 different things, because my point stands regardless of gender”
Our difference is in the ’emphasis’.
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Y,
Only if Abagond says its alright (I will try and find it).
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J:
It is all right to link to Robert Lindsay’s blog, if that was your question.
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Cheers!!
Here you go Y,
Middle Aged White Woman On Why She Only Dates Black Men
http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/06/30/middle-aged-white-woman-on-why-she-only-dates-black-men/
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“Are white women LESS racist then white men?”
HELL NAW! Its the same. Just like someone said earlier, white women have been the death of sooooooooo many black men its a shame. But that doesn’t stop black men from marrying/dating them. If I was a black man, I wouldn’t give white women a second look. But Negros act like they can’t help themselves. Which they can’t because they are still suffering from that Willie Lynch syndrome.
Here we are today in the 21st century, 2010, and white women are STILL accusing black men of rap and abducting their children. SMH.
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INNOCENT black men.
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wow! The things you learn online. I checked out that site and left a comment. The post that shocked me the most was that he was surprised that a person could be black AND a woman AND intelligent. I guess I am totally unaware and out of touch as to how some people preceive black people.
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@ islandgirl
You said, “I guess I am totally unaware and out of touch as to how some people preceive black people.
Idiots of all kinds are all too far common in today’s world.
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mynameismyname,
“And then you and others say that non-blacks are so eager to date blacks?!”
Did I say that? Pretty sure I didn’t. You seem to be projecting that idea on to me, especially since I responded “no,” to your question of whether the majority of white women desire to be with black men.
“What makes you think these non-blacks don’t think these thoughts just as much if not more? If you don’t like yourself, who in the heck will???”
I love myself, but one thing I don’t like are those that speak out of both sides of their mouths, and those were the people I was addressing. You and others might not approve of my thoughts or opinions on this particular issue, but I’m just being honest, like I always am. If I was perpetuating stereotypes, it was entirely accidental because I was only speaking from what I or someone I know has directly experienced.
“Why do you think the majority of white women aren’t exactly tripping over themselves to be with a black man? I’m curious.”
Although I did/do know younger white women that are interested in dating/being intimate with black men, I don’t think the majority are interested in black men because they’re black. The Civil Rights Movement wasn’t so long ago that the mindset of whites has done a complete 180. There’s been a lot of progress, but the U.S. is far from post-racial, especially on the relationship front.
“America is pretty segregrated so the amount of blacks who lived mainly around whites won’t be too high. Also acknowledge that black men who grow up in largely non-black environments also face much rejection on the romantic front. As do many black women.”
I know that the majority of blacks still live around other blacks, but I’ve known quite a few that haven’t. They faced rejection, but for black men it didn’t appear to be any more than other men. I don’t think the interracial dating game is equal between black men and black women.
“What makes you think women don’t pursue men? No matter who throws the bait first, women chose their mates. Men don’t.”
There are women that approach men, but they are very much in the minority. I don’t know how someone could think otherwise. And in the cases that women do approach men, they also face rejection, so saying “women choose their mates” is not very accurate. I don’t think men just enter into a relationship with or marry just any women who approaches them; hardly. Sex is one thing, a commitment is entirely another.
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Forgot a couple of questions…
“Also what’s the percentage of black men in America who are rich and/or famous? Do the majority of black men look like Denzel Washington/Morris Chestnutt?”
I don’t know about the first question, but to the second: the best looking black men I’ve seen were in Virginia. There’s something in the water over there.
———————
Jasmin,
“I’d agree with you. Since most women aren’t interested in asking men out, their options are automatically limited to the men that approach them. A woman’s standards don’t matter if no men ever talk to her in the first place.”
Right. Some men seem to have this idea that women have it much easier when it comes to dating and relationships, but that’s not really the case. First, a woman would have to get a man to be genuinely interested in her (whether she is the one approaching or not), and that’s not as easy as it sounds.
“**I wish ES would jump into this conversation, since he mentioned on another blog that he took a girl asking him out less seriously since he didn’t “have to work for it”. I wonder how the fear of that happening (justified or not) shapes women’s reluctance to ask men out.”
In my experience, this is definitely an issue to contend with. Men say they like to be approached by women and they’re not lying. But some of them adopt this “Well, you approached me, I didn’t approach you, so you do the work” attitude once they get over the flattery of being asked out by a woman. They don’t put as much effort into make things work. Not all of them do this, but enough for me to notice. I think becoming friends with a guy first (but not to the point where you are best buddies) is generally the best way to approach a male rather than outright asking.
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@ J
You seem to be unable to answer my questions. But I am so intrigued by your posturing I am going to ask again.
How are black women following white women’s feminist ideology?
AND
How are black women ignorant of the natural African place in the world?
Instead of trying to insult me (which was so nonsesnsical, I was amused instead of insulted). Inform me about how black women are ignorant followers?
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Eshowoman,
Perhaps its because I do not wish to answer.
I brought to your attention an ideology among certain nationalisst with regard to women using White/euro-centred/feminism. An ideology that you do not seem to be familiar and/or conservant with.
Furthermore and obviously if what they suggest is true. Then it would follow by a process of logic, that there would be a lack of knowledge regarding African culture and African women, because of the frame of reference utilised.
As an example , I mentioned the conflation of FGM with pre-colonial African societies.
With all this information at your disposal. You should be able to find out for yourself, the ‘HOW’ part to your own aforesaid question.
viz. “HOW are black women following white women’s feminist ideology?”
Finally, I am not quite sure where I tried to insult you, unless pointing out the ‘facts’ constitutes this.
If anyone is ‘guilty’ of insults then I would have to ask you to re-read through this thread again – but this time our dialogue only.
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Thanks J,
Interesting link. R. Lindsay seems to be hung up on this black man/white woman thing…
BTW, Abagond, are you and Lindsay at war or somehting? LOL. He doesnt think to highly of us over here. Has he been banned? Did he troll the site at one time? I have seen his comments on the “Why few White Men Marry Black Women” post but thats about it.
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Y,
There seems to be more on the site – which I apparently missed – but this time with regard to the UK,
This would now be quite an old show, since the series ended a few years ago
“Anti-White Hate Propaganda on a British Talk Show”
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Okay I tried my best to read most of the comments. I lose my patience sometimes but I did try this time before making any comments!
@J and Thaddeus
Look. I have had 10 boyfriends in my lifetime, including the one with whom I am married. I did not ask ANY of them out on a date. I didn’t ask them for their numbers either. And I gave only one of them “hints” to how I felt about him. The other 9 I didn’t know existed or I just saw them as a friend. All of them approached me and asked me out for my phone number or asked me out on a date! Trust me, if it had been up to me to ask the guy out, I would probably still be single! I am not saying that women never approach guys, but normally women don’t take rejection all that well or in my case, when I was much younger, I was shy. I am not shy now but that was how I was then.
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Cheers Jeri,
Just for clarification
My point is that women are not ‘passive’ but ‘pro-active’ in the dating game, something you allude to when you refer to ‘giving hints’.
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I think it is usuallly the women who either accepts the invitation from the male or rejects it. She doesn’t normally initiate it! But then again, I could be wrong. That is my experience! Some men may have had different experiences. I would think that just because a women gives “hints” doesn’t mean the man will approach the woman. It has to be based on how he feels about the woman. Now that doesn’t mean I think woman shouldn’t approach men. I am all for it! Now that I am older, I would probably approach men if I wasn’t married and I wanted to be in a relationship.
@mynameismyname
I don’t know if I agree with you that it is the woman who chooses the man. It is usually the man who approaches the women. That is just my opinion based on my life experience. I mean it is possible that other women are more aggressive.
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And I should add that being ‘pro-active’ leaving aside ‘signals’, can also include, taking pride in appearance, appropriate dress, going to the ‘in’ places, social networks of friends and the list of variables go on.
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Thanks J,
I commented on that post about two days ago. I dont get what the big deal is. That show looks like a British Jerry Springer…its just smut TV. Why take it seriously
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Cheers Jeri,
It all depends what you mean by who accepts the ‘invitation’??
Lets take for example two passing eyes in a public space. There is going to be a number of processes (further looking, a smile) before the male goes over and says ‘hi’, and for the female to says ‘yea or nay’.
Even before the women has a chance to say yea or nay, there would have already been a number of ‘subtle invitations’ by both parties.
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Y,
That was one of the more ‘educated’ chat show back in the day over here…
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I wanted to ask a question? Do any of you think there is a difference in how black men and white men approach women? Some people say that white men are less aggressive. I am just curious as to rather you guys agree or not. I know a black woman who has been with her white husband for 20 years! They became boyfriend and girlfriend in highschool. I know that she wanted a white boyfriend because she told me before they got together that she was interested in men of other races. So it is possible that she did give her man some hints. Maybe it was a mutual thing. I don’t know. I wish I could ask her how they got together. I haven’t seen her in awhile. Well, like I said earlier, do any of you think there is a difference between white men and black men in the dating arena?
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Over here in the UK, I think there is…but I am not going to go into it ha ha ha ha
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^Yes, I think there is a difference in the way they generally approach women. White men tend to be more subtle. This isn’t always a good thing.
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Natasha W
You know, not to offend you or anything, but I don’t think 15% of black men are married to white women. I read your comment much earlier where you said that 15 percent of black men were with white women. I recently read on a website where it said that a little over 6 % of black men were married to white women and little under 3 % of black women were married to white men. This was in the United States. These figures may have changed but I don’t think it has changed that drastically! It will be interesting to find out what the 2010 census has to say! I don’t think that the figures are available yet! So I don’t think black women have to fear interracial relationships as being the primary cause for black men and women not getting together. After visiting this website and seeing how black men and women interact with each other, I think a lack of trust has alot to do with! I think we are allowing a small number of negative people to dictate how we respond to everybody! Also, bad past experiences as well as racial stereotypes may have something to do with it also. I wish there was a forum where we could encourage black men and women to talk about relationships in a more peacable manner! It is unfortunate, but it seems as if the forums always become a bashing situation of which I am guilty. I would prefer if we could respect each other in these types of forums. Hopefully, in the future, I will try to ignore rude and abusive comments. I have too many things to do in my life than to waste my time arguring with ignorant people!
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@J
Yeah, I understand what you are saying about smiling and other subtle gestures as being an invitation. But in my case, I think when the men saw me smiling at them, it was just to be friendly, not as flirtation. But I am sure there are women who do flirt in real subtle ways! It is just that it is hard to tell when a person is being friendly or flirting, at least it is not easy for me to tell the difference.
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@Natasha W
And when I am talking about ignorant people , I am not talking about you of course. I am talking about people who bash people. It is just that I can’t allow negative people to make me negative like them. Life already has its challenges without adding more problems by arguring with people I don’t know who obviously don’t like people like myself. I would rather find more constructive things to do. Hopefully, I have learned my lesson. I tend to let people “take me there” if you know what I mean. Someone says something, I am offended and the next thing I know I am at it with them. In the future, I will make my point and move on! I suggest you ignore them as well and don’t let the mean people of the internet cause you to get too upset. There are immature people in this world. Way more of them than I suspected! I just have to accept it and find something positive to do with my precious time.
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Jeri,
Maybe 15% of married Black men are married to non-Black women (I’m not sure if the specified the partner’s race beyond that), which totals to 6% of all Black men.
It’s interesting you talk about signals: my boyfriend told me that he was interested in me when we first met, but got the courage to make a move based on a “signal” I made (sending him messages with lots of :-)). When he mentioned it after we started dating, I told him I just use smileys a lot in general. (And honestly, he was plotting his move before he was even on my radar.:-P) It’s interesting how guys interpret certain things as “come hithers”–I smile a lot (that’s my default expression), and I’ve had guys approach because I’m smiling, even though I’m not smiling at them!
Natasha,
I think men tend to be focused on the ratio of acceptances to rejections when talking about relationships, since they are usually the ones in a place to be rejected (since they approach more). So they feel women have the power based on those rejection experiences. Women, on the other hand, either experience or have a friend who has experienced being “ignored” by men, no matter how hard she tries to send the right signals. (I usually speak from a college perspective, since there are always more girls than guys at college parties, and plenty of girls “sl*t it up” to try and attract men.) A woman who tends to not get approached by men would just be happy to have one come up in the first place, nevermind quality, because then she’d have some kind of option.*
* Of course, she’d have more options if she approached men herself, but many women don’t want to do that, for various reasons.
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Jasmin
Yeah, I agree. Alot of guys make assumptions about why you are smiling, or why you are talking to them. I mean, often times you are just being friendly. Now, if you say things like “do you have a girlfriend” or something like that, then I can see you assuming that she is being flirtatious. But a smile? Well, I guess it could be a good thing that they think that smiles are flirtations or else they would never approach you at all!
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Jasmin
Umm, I read wikipedia about interracial marriages. It said that 6% of black men who are married are married to white women. Not 6% of all black men. Now, it is possible that the figures have changed drastically! I think they got those statistics from the 2000 census. It said 2006, but I think it mean’t that wikipedia looked up the figures in 2006. So the percentage could have changed big time since 2000. I mean that was 10 years ago. I would guess that 9 % of black men are married to white women now but that is just a guess not a fact. Maybe 4 percent of all black women who are married are now married to white men. . I don’t think the 2010 census figures will be available until a year from now. It could be available now but I don’t know! Like I said, it is going to be interesting to find out the 2010 census figures.
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Jasmin
I think black people believe that the whole interracial relationship thing is huge between black men and white women. I do think that more black men are involved in interracial marriages than black women but I don’t think the overral number is huge. Another thing, alot of black men and white women may have dated or had one night stands but marriage is a huge difference. I dated a white man but I didn’t lead to marriage. I have a female relative who dated an Arab but it didn’t turn into a serious relationship. I had a black female friend who dated and got pregnant by an Arab but he didn’t want to marry her. So marriage and dating is different. I wouldn’t be surprised if a huge number of black men have dated or been intimate with white women. But I am talking about marriage alone. I am just saying this because I think alot of black women feel betrayed by black men because of the socalled huge numbers of black men with white women. But I don’t think they should feel this way because it may not be as bad as we think. Most black men may want to be with black women.
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Jasmin says:
I wish ES would jump into this conversation, since he mentioned on another blog that he took a girl asking him out less seriously since he didn’t “have to work for it”. I wonder how the fear of that happening (justified or not) shapes women’s reluctance to ask men out.
Natasha says:
In my experience, this is definitely an issue to contend with. Men say they like to be approached by women and they’re not lying. But some of them adopt this “Well, you approached me, I didn’t approach you, so you do the work” attitude once they get over the flattery of being asked out by a woman. They don’t put as much effort into make things work. Not all of them do this, but enough for me to notice. I think becoming friends with a guy first (but not to the point where you are best buddies) is generally the best way to approach a male rather than outright asking.
Jumping in as per your request Jasmin!
Just to clarify, I don’t think I said that I definitely did take that relationship less seriously because of her asking me out. It was destined to end anyway (3 years later). But it is something I have oftened wondered about; whether her initiating things had an effect on how much I valued the relationship. I probably would have eventually made a move anyway. But because she pre-empted it, I hadn’t yet convinced myself that it was the right move. I’ve I’d had time to think it over and motivate myself into making my move on her, it could have been a little different, although in the long run we would still have eventually split at some point.
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Excuse my problems with italicising in that last comment. Maybe Abagond can fix it up.
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Jeri,
I don’t think anyone said interracial relationships are “huge” between Black men and White women (as far as I know Natasha referenced the disparities in numbers between Black men and women in IRR). I certainly don’t think so, since my personal experience has few examples of Black men with White women. Although I’ve heard many stories from Black women (including some on this blog) about being surrounded by Black men/White women couples, where I’m from Black men who express a preference for White women tend to make reference to purely sexual reasons, not relationships. Although some women may gripe about “good Black men” being married to White women, I don’t think any of them want to fight over the chance to be the #1 jumpoff.
I am just saying this because I think alot of black women feel betrayed by black men because of the socalled huge numbers of black men with white women.
Honestly, I think you are projecting (or just overgeneralizing) with this statement. Both here and other places there are plenty of Black women that discuss interracial relationships are already in relationships of their own, so they have no stake in whom Black men date. And I think single women can talk about relationships without having some kind of ulterior motive. It gets old when people reduce conversations about relationships to the “bitter Black woman” stereotype. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy.
ES,
Hope you didn’t think I was putting words in your mouth. 🙂
I don’t know the story, so I wasn’t trying to suggest that her asking you out “ruined” the relationship, but rather that women have a fear (justified or not) that asking a guy out makes it “too easy”–that’s the part of your story I was getting at.
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@ Jasmin:
No drama.
With regard to Jeri’s comment:
I am just saying this because I think alot of black women feel betrayed by black men because of the socalled huge numbers of black men with white women.
I do get a hint of that from some of the comments on this blog from some black women; not necessarily stated overtly, but a suggestion of it. But that may be me reading too much into it.
I know that there is a bit of resentment among Asian men towards WM/AW relationships, for reasons that may be similar.
Regarding your comment:
It gets old when people reduce conversations about relationships to the “bitter Black woman” stereotype
I concur. As someone who is the product of a mixed-race marriage, it can be a bit puzzling when such relationships are reduced to being all about self-hatred, stereotypes, selling out, fetishisation and so on. Not to say those things may not be factors, but when it comes down to it, it is about 2 people who fall in love with each other. And I think sometimes in these discussions we forget about that.
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Jeri,
“You know, not to offend you or anything, but I don’t think 15% of black men are married to white women.”
I’m not offended. And I didn’t make that number up out of thin air; there was a recent survey done by the Associated Press that provided those stats.
“I recently read on a website where it said that a little over 6 % of black men were married to white women and little under 3 % of black women were married to white men. This was in the United States. These figures may have changed but I don’t think it has changed that drastically!”
I know; those numbers are from the 2000 Census, I believe. So they are about a decade old. The numbers have increased:
“In contrast, blacks are now three times as likely to marry whites than in 1980. About 14.4 percent of black men and 6.5 percent of black women are currently in such mixed marriages.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/05/26/national/main6520098.shtml
So, around 7 percent of black women and around 15 percent of black men are interracial marriages to whites. Two things to note when trying to parse these numbers: (1) Around 33-35 percent of black men are married, period (according to the Census) (2) These are only citing marriages, not long-term relationships, cohabitation, etc.
When the 2010 Census comes out, the numbers will more than likely be higher than this (although there is a chance they could be slightly lower), because the survey is not as comprehensive.
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Eurasian Sensation, thanks for the clarification.
—————
Jeri,
But I am talking about marriage alone. I am just saying this because I think alot of black women feel betrayed by black men because of the socalled huge numbers of black men with white women.
“I think black people believe that the whole interracial relationship thing is huge between black men and white women.”
If something is quanitifiable, I’m not going to come to conclusion based on experience: I’ll check numbers. My conclusion would have been the same as yours: that the majority of married black men are with black women because I see most black men with black women. But the current numbers say otherwise. I can’t argue with that based on personal feelings.
“I am just saying this because I think alot of black women feel betrayed by black men because of the socalled huge numbers of black men with white women.”
Jasmin,
“Honestly, I think you are projecting (or just overgeneralizing) with this statement. Both here and other places there are plenty of Black women that discuss interracial relationships are already in relationships of their own, so they have no stake in whom Black men date. And I think single women can talk about relationships without having some kind of ulterior motive. It gets old when people reduce conversations about relationships to the “bitter Black woman” stereotype. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy.”
I agree with Jasmin that you are overgeneralizing, and to be honest, I find it a little annoying. It seems that whenever a black woman discusses relationships in a candid way, they are somehow seen to be bitter, no matter what they say.
I thought I made it clear that I’ve been in a relationship for the past several years. I’m not looking for anyone and I’m not dating. I am set to be engaged and my SO and I are very much in love. In addition to that, black men approach me nearly every day and I was in a relationship with a black man before I met my SO (which I ended). So why would I feel romantically betrayed by people who I have no intention of ever being with in the future?
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Jeri, scratch that first sentence I quoted from you (the one that begins “But I am…”).
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Natasha W
I am not making assumptions about you at all. I was just saying that I think the figures you quoted were exagerrated! So don’t take what I am saying so personal! I mentioned it not just because of you, but because of other black women who might be reading these statements. Some might think that it is worse than it actually is so I made comments about the figures I read in wikipedia. I had a feeling you were going to take it this way. Look, I am talking to you in a matter of fact way, while simply discussing my opinions, the way I would discuss it with members of my own family, because I respect your opininons. I am not assuming things about you or judging you!I don’t think all black women are the bitter, angry types. But lets be honest, I am not trying to say that all black women are bitter because of bm/ww relationships but many of them are concerned. Maybe you aren’t but I know without a doubt that many of them are! So lets just be real! Now, I read your article that you sent, and I am surprised! I never would have guessed that the figures would be so high! I am curious as to where the figures came from.
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Natasha W
I am have to be honest! I would be amazed if the 2010 figures say that 15 % and 7 percent of black men and women (respectively) were married to white people. I mean that would mean that the numbers have almost tripled in just one decade! Wow! I am shocked. I would assume on my part that 9% of black men and 4 percent of black women would be in interracial marriages with whites. You know, like it would have increased by 50% only. Like, I said, the 2010 census statistics will be interesting!
Look I apologize if you took what I said the wrong way! Like I said, I said this for the benefit of other black men and women who might be reading these comments. I will explain to you that my personal agenda is that black men and women find peace with each other. It is important to me because I value black love as well as interracial love. I mean love period is wonderful! I want our people to love and forgive each other! Do you understand? So once again, don’t take everything people say so personal! I respect and care about you even though I don’t know you so I took the liberty to express my feelings. Not in an attack mode but in a “You know my feelings is this” way. That is it! Okay.
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In the beginning, I meant to say “I have to be honest!”
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Ladies,
I didn’t say women handpick the men they’re interested in. I said that it’s women who have the final say in ANY romantic situation. I may want to have sex with a woman I find sexually desirable. Yet, who makes the ultimate decision in whether or not that happens??? I can approach all I want or she can approach me, but who has the power to give things “cracking”?
Also, we all know full on well that VERY FEW men turn down sex.
And, for what it’s worth, I’ve been approached by women several times.
Natasha,
You believe the mainstream media? You know they have an agenda in any information they decide to report. Those figures came from an isolated survey. Not official government numbers.
I worked for the US Census on the side this last Spring. I saw a total of two black men (out of countless BM surveyed) in interracial relationships while I worked for them. One was married to a white Hispanic. The other was living with a non-white Hispanic who classified her race as black. (She was Puerto Rican). This was in Yorktown, VA.
The black men in VA were looking right, you say? I lived/live between Southeastern VA…so what you trying to say? 😉 LOL.
In any event, blacks marry/date interracially the least, by far. Non-blacks do it at an alarming rate yet you rarely see news reports about that or here anyone passionately comment on it. What does that say?
And you know damn well that many black women do not like to see a black man with a non-black women, especially a white one. C’Mon. I’ve never dated a non-black woman and have no real desire to do so but there’s been times where if I’m casually taking to a white woman in a perfectly platonic manner…black women are glaring at me!!! LOL. Black women like yourselves who are in IR relationships may not mind but trust me, MANY, MANY do. And honestly, knowing how anti-black the US, who can blame them?
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Eurasian Sensation
Yeah, I recently spoke to a young Asian man who said he was upset about the fact that Asian men were not represented as love interest in American movies or television. He is real attractive and he seems like a real nice person. It is a shame that Black women and Asian men feel so betrayed and hurt! I hope things will get better in the future for us.
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Jeri, no problem; I accept your apology. I was annoyed at the comment since it seemed so trite, and it just doesn’t apply to me at all. I know you only mean well. I see what you’re saying, though I don’t think black women need any reminder that they are supposed to be bitter, heartbroken, and/or lonely.
—————-
mynameismyname,
“I said that it’s women who have the final say in ANY romantic situation…I can approach all I want or she can approach me, but who has the power to give things “cracking”?
If you’re only talking about sex, then yes, women have more of a say in that. If we’re talking about anything more than that, then it’s usually equal.
“You believe the mainstream media? You know they have an agenda in any information they decide to report.”
I think the Associated Press is a fairly reputable source. I think everyone has an agenda, whether good or bad, but that doesn’t necessarily mean their figures aren’t to be trusted. In any case, yes, the Census should be interesting.
“The black men in VA were looking right, you say? I lived/live between Southeastern VA…so what you trying to say? LOL.”
Uhh, that I was referring specificially to the black men in NOVA? 😉
On a serious note, yes, they are really goodlooking. One I met had a mind-enttrapping smile and the most gorgeous doe eyes. He offered to show me around, but I sadly declined. I think that was the only time I’ve ever wished I were single.
“And you know damn well that many black women do not like to see a black man with a non-black women, especially a white one. C’Mon…Black women like yourselves who are in IR relationships may not mind but trust me, MANY, MANY do.”
I know. I see the stares and eyerolls sometimes when I’m out. But even if I weren’t in a relationship, I wouldn’t care. I usually think that black men who are with non-black women aren’t interested in black women, so I’m not going to get jeaious over someone that’s not interested in my type. I know that it might not necessarily be the case that he’s not interested in black women, but I think it anyway since the ones I personally know aren’t.
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Natasha W
Well, now that I think about it. It is possible that most black women aren’t as concerned about interracial relationships as I think they are. It is just I personally know a woman who does talk about the subject alot. I told her the same thing I told you. That I don’t think there are as many interracial relationships as she assumes. But that is just my personal experience. I will be honest. I have also talked to some sisters and they don’t seem to care at all about the subject. So it is an individual thing. I also wonder does age have something to do with the subject. I think I am older than you and I think SOME ( not all) older black women are disillusioned with what has happened in their relationships. When I was younger, I think I was more like you. I didn’t care. My best friend of 4 years was a white female with a black boyfriend. This was when I was 18 to 22 years old. As I have gotten older, I have become more concerned with what I am seeing between black men and women. The lack of marriages is my main concern. I am not ancient. I am in my mid-30’s but I have noticed a change in my interest concerning relationships.
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Jeri, I do think it is an individual thing. I also think that many black women have received overt or covert messages that black men are their only options when it comes to dating, so it makes them feel like they are losing out if a black man dates interracially. I never got this message (or I wasn’t paying attention), so I don’t feel that way. You’re not much older than I am, actually. But disllusionment can occur at any age.
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Natasha W
Unfortunately, many black women do think black men are their only options. Now understand, I WOULD like for most black people to marry each other. I used to think that I wanted close to 90% of blacks to marry each other and the rest in interracial relationships. I don’t have a problem with interracial relationships. Like I mentioned before, I had a friendship with a white man who I still care about to this day. But because of all the obstacles that black people have to face, I want blacks to triumph by showing each other love and respect, especially in marriage. For so many years, we have allowed a racist society to tell us that black isn’t good enough. Now I am not saying that people who are in interracial relationships have a problem with black people, but I have noticed a problem with colorism, self hatred, sexism, classism and all kinds of other problems within the black community. I want blacks to triumph over these problems and do this by how we treat each in our close relationships, primarily in marriage.
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Natasha W
But just because I want this, doesn’t mean it will happen. It is just very important to me. My marriage isn’t perfect. We have our problems from time to time. But is nice to know you can rely on someone and you are not all alone in this world. I want most black women to know how that feels. I know there are strong women who don’t need a man, but I am sure that many black women want a commited partner and I think many are quite frustrated. Maybe interracial relationships are an option but I wonder how possible that is for the majority of black women. Understand, I don’t think it is that much more possible for black men neither. So why should we ignore each other. Like I said, black love is my main interest right now. I just hope blacks will consider it.
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Jeri,
It’s my guess that Black women who are “bitter” about White women with Black men are bitter about relationships in general (and that’s not a race thing). Women who are comfortable in the state of their romantic relations (whether single or dating/married) have no reason to “mean mug” people they don’t know. Interracial relationships may be easy to scapegoat, but the Debbie Downer types are often just as likely to make snide remarks about a Black girl with a Black guy.
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For what its worth, most of the black guys I’ve known who did interacially also dated black women as well.
If a black person says they are not interested in dating someone of their own race, then they have issues. I’m sorry.
Well, Natasha, you may have a point. In many cases, the iniatation (sp?) of a relationship may be equal, gender-wise but I still mantain that women have the upper hand most of the time.
Jasmin,
You’re right, some people are just haters. But with the way black women are often devauled and deintergated, it makes sense that many black women aren’t exactly feeling seeing a black man with an “other”. Also, there’s a very ugly history between black men and white women. Their modern day “love” hangs on a family tree.
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With regard to:
“It’s my guess that Black women who are “bitter” about White women with Black men are bitter about relationships in general (and that’s not a race thing).”
Personally, I think it is a lot more complicated than this
On an ‘individual’ level, a woman may be concerned about finding a partner etc, this is only one aspect of the equation ie micro level
However there is also a ‘race’ or you can say ‘sociological’ aspect to all of this ie the macro-level.
And in fact depending on how one chooses to look at it there may be no difference between the micro and macro, especially if you accept the premise that the ‘family unit’ (no matter how it is constituted) is the ‘building blocks’ for
society.
For instance:
The Economist
Sex and the Single Black Woman
How the mass incarceration of black men hurts black women Apr 8th 2010
http://www.economist.com/node/15867956?story_id=15867956
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I’ve also noticed that a lot of Black men in relationships with White women also date all other women. However, I have noticed these same guys ‘upset’ when they saw a sista with a non-Black man.
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Jeri, I hear you. I feel similarly, but I don’t think that being in an interracial relationship is mutually exclusive with loving your own “race.”
mynameismyname,
“If a black person says they are not interested in dating someone of their own race, then they have issues. I’m sorry.”
Lol. I feel the same way about those that say they are not interesting in wo/men of their race in general. I think there might be the one in a thousand that is preeferentially attracted to other groups, though. The amount of Asian women who tell me they are just not attracted to Asian men is a litle too high for me to think it has nothing to do with outside influences.
ColorofLuv, true.
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ColrofLuv,
…And this is probably because of of ‘sexual competition’
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J,
I don’t think Black women (as a racial group), are intrinsically “bitter” or anything like that. The “women are catty” meme is a long-held gender stereotype, but the racial component is only brought up as significant when it comes to Black women. Why?
CoL,
Did they say why? I’ve heard that too, but never an explanation for the hypocrisy.
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Jasmin,
The ‘racial component’ is brought up by both parties ie males and females – I had thought. And hence your allusion to ‘bitterness’ etc. Though I am not sure how the reference as a ‘group’ comes into the equation. Since I do not think anyone made reference to the group per se
Be that as it may there has always been differing standards of sexual behaviour for males and female, in a ‘patriarchal’ society.
This is the essence of which I think you are trying to get at.
On a different point.
You can also find that females who have their own respective partners from the same race also object to others (whether it be male or female) in IRR
In this instance when I have observed it, I would say it is due to ‘culture’ , though again perhaps there is an influence of ‘sexual competition’ also in a strange about way.
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You’re right, some people are just haters. But with the way black women are often devauled and deintergated, it makes sense that many black women aren’t exactly feeling seeing a black man with an “other”.
I really dont care if a black man is with an other. What I do care about though is that some of these black men tend to bash and bad mouth black women to these other women. And these other women seem to have no problem bragging about it too.
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@Natasha W:
“If a black person says they are not interested in dating someone of their own race, then they have issues. I’m sorry.”
I think so, too. Some of the AW I have come across have strongly insisted they won’t date AM for several reasons. The two main reasons that I hear all the time are that AM are geeky, uncool, and unattractive and that it would feel as if they’re dating their brother.
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Reading the comments of Leaveumthinking (and that is what she exactly has done) and also Leigh reinforced what I have seen from my experience that when it comes to IRR very few of us can enter into it, without any form of ‘hate’ manifesting itself one way or another – And hence why the negative comments that you allude to Leaveumthinking and Leigh204.
Previously I had said I had known 3 people who dated people solely on the basis that they are ‘humans’. Now I have discovered that 2 of them have their own respective issues, now leaving only one.
Hmmmm!!!
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J,
What I mean is, no one ever sees it as a valid discussion as to why White males (or Hispanic females, or whomever) as a distinct category are opposed to IRR. It’s either Black wo/men or “people in general”. Amongst Black people, a tendency to discuss the in-group makes sense, but I just find it curious that no other group is thought to have a standard set of “issues” with IRR that deviates from “general factors” (racism, etc.).
Leaveum,
I agree that’s weird, especially since I’ve found that the men who do that often bash White women to Black women, saying that they’re easy, submissive, etc.
Back to what MNIMN said, I don’t really see why a Black woman would want a Black guy she thought was a self-hater because he dated a non-Black woman. If he’s damaged goods, then aren’t you glad he’s not coming after you? Which is why I can’t help but assume that women (or men) like that are in the minority, because the logic just doesn’t make sense.
I admittedly don’t have much experience with “self-hating Black people”–I’ve only seen people like that on television. So I don’t know how I’d respond to someone like that in my face.
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Cheers for the clarification Jasmin, and forgive me for my misunderstanding,
Not being in the States, I can’t specifically comment.
Once again I think the answer to your question lies with the ‘power’ ie the ‘power’ to define reality.
I do concur with you about the way issues can all unfold with certain groups and dis-proportionately too.
However, if one visits and/or move around in the appropriate circles like Robert Lindsay blog. You will be able to hear the ‘minority’ view being discussed accordingly.
If you follow my drift…
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J,
Really I don’t. 😛
Isn’t R. Lindsay’s blog a racist one? I tend to avoid those…
Side note: I have this image of you in my head as this long-fingered, contemplative, chin-stroking old(er) man, since you tend to write in little enigmas. 🙂
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“The two main reasons that I hear all the time are that AM are geeky, uncool, and unattractive and that it would feel as if they’re dating their brother.”
C’mon… every Asian guy is geeky? There are a lot of women of other ethnicities who have a thing for Asian guys.
As for dating their brothers, that’s ridiculous. EVERY guy in your entire ethnicity reminds you of your brother?? Please…
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The outmarriage rate continues to grow in 2008 22% of black male outmarried compared 9% black women according to Census Bureau’s American Community Survey. If their isn’t a preference for white women, what is it?
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Not meant to be a challenge to you.
But could you site that source please.
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Leaveumthinking says,
I really dont care if a black man is with an other. What I do care about though is that some of these black men tend to bash and bad mouth black women to these other women. And these other women seem to have no problem bragging about it too.
laromana says,
I agree with your comment. BM and BW can love, date, and/or marry whomever they want (REGARDLESS of race) but I have a MAJOR problem with ANTI-BW BM who go around TRASHING BW. There’s NO EXCUSE for that type of behavior and it needs to STOP.
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Jasmin,
Just to say if you choose to avoid…………………………………..
then this could also be the reason why you only hear certain topics like:
“What I mean is, no one ever sees it as a valid discussion as to why White males (or Hispanic females, or whomever) as a distinct category are opposed to IRR”
Hope this has clarified
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i noticed that you said some jews seem to understand racism more than other whites. im not saying that isnt true, it very much is, but, remember there are other ‘types’ of whites who`ve faced racism in other ways, that understand as well. for example: my grandparents came to america during ww2 to avoid being killed by the germans when germany invaded greece. they were ethnic, leftist greeks. while arriving to america, they ran into street signs and business signs saying ‘ no wops’, ‘dagos go home’, etcetc. though they were never physically beaten or driven out of any neiborhoods, there were, just like any other race or group in america at that time, designated areas where greeks, slavs, and italians felt comforable until they had economic freedoms. though it pales in comparison to the black american struggle and that of the jews, it was enough to instill a sence of equality and humanity into my father, and myself, which is why i hope the people on this site know not all white, especially young, ‘liberal’, urban are racists.
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To answer the question; are white women less racist than white men? No. They just behave better. I know.
I am a white man and they tell me things they would never say in public or to any black person. Believe me, there are some stone cold racists in nice looks and good behavior out there.
Actually the most loud-mouth-bad-behaving-white trash women that I have met over here are actually much less inclined to the racism. They might act like it but there is no agenda, just bad behavior and total ignorance. But those ladies in nice dresses and polite smiles, politically correct talk and good manners…
I met one lady who actually work with foreigners as her profession and she hates them all: blacks, gypsies, dinks, winks, romanians, russians, albanians, you name it. The only people she is fine with are white brittish, germans and scandinavians. Everybody else is crap. Of course she doesn’t meet any white germans in her job.
And I’ve seen this woman talk about how we all should be more tolerant and multicultural and so and so. This was a nice evening gala were a lot of foreigners were at place. She knew she had to talk like that front of “those people” and she did. When I asked doesn’t that bother her at all she said: ah, they hate us too!
Go figure…
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Sam,
Are you sure this is not a ‘British thing’ as opposed to a ‘woman thing’ ie skill at hiding racism etc. I would be interested…
Cheers!!
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Well, the woman in question is a finn, so I guess it is her thing anyways. Generally speaking, women tend to hide those negative thoughts better than men if they are socially not ok. At least this is my experience. Men might blurt out anything, be rude or politically incorrect just for the heck of it, where as women tend to toe the line.
Another example: friend of mine once was calling her friends racists because they had a fight with some gypsies, that is a real fist fight I mean. But when one of our mutual friends got married a thai woman, this same woman asked had I seen the Monkey yet. She meant the thai woman.
Funny thing about finnish women, they think it is very much ok if they date foreigners in general, but if a finnish man meets a foreign woman, it is not so nice anymore. One woman I met had an african husband from Ghana but yet she talked about african whores who come to Helsinki just to cath stupid finnish guys and live on them.
Go figure 😀
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Cheers Sam,
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Another silly question.
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Update
mynameismyname and jeri,
“Those figures came from an isolated survey. Not official government numbers.”
“I am have to be honest! I would be amazed if the 2010 figures say that 15 % and 7 percent of black men and women (respectively) were married to white people. I mean that would mean that the numbers have almost tripled in just one decade!”
Mynameismyname, I erred in saying those statistics were from a survey done by the AP; the story was only quoted by the AP who were cited as the original source. They are official government numbers as per the latest Census figures.
Jeri, be amazed:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/06/04/national/main6547886.shtml
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coming from my experiences as a mixed race person, I think white people generally have more potential to be racist that black people. but i know they will beg to differ.
Anyway yes I do also think white men are more likely to be racist than white women. white men are at the top of the racial and power heirarchy and will at times want to assert that power. white women can be racist too, but they often just follow or agree with what white men in their environment are saying or go by their opinions. when white women are racist it is more harmless. some racist white men however have more potential to take their views to an extreme.
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however now that I have thought about it more, perhaps men are generally more open about their opinions. white women can also be racist but perhaps in a more covert less obvious way.
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When white women gain power and affluence, I’ve found that they are not, in general, any more compassionate towards minorities, than white males are. I always found that surprising, since white females have had to deal with sexism, to one degree or another. You’d think this would make them more fair-minded, towards minorities. Well, from what I’ve seen and experienced, it doesn’t!
I’m an African American female, and I have been wrongfully terminated, and other-wise back-stabbed on the job, by powerful white women. Not to mention pushed out of my residence more than once, by affluent white females, who gentrified my neighborhoods. At best, affluent white women have patronized me. At worst, they have taken away my livelihood, and jeopardized my survival.
From what I’ve seen, once white women achieve economic power, they tend to step on everyone else, that happens to be worse off than they are. Take it from me, it’s not always the white male, that oppresses minorities. Well-off white women, are just as guilty of oppressing minorities and the poor, as some white males are!
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It dont matter who is more racist… Minorities is winning against whites in this country now anyways and we gonna continue gaining power. So whites can be racist all they want but the days of them ruling america is over.
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look at Anne Colter. thats all I gotta say. lol
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LMAO.
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I remember in my literature class we were told about this white female author. She was a feminist but only for white women and was racist.
Does anyone remember that speech by Sojourner Truth? Was that the black lady who spoke about sexism and racism when asked to speak. And she said she was a woman as well but she was not looked at as a woman?
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“Ain’t I a woman?!” Yep that was her.
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Thank you Y.
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Here’s the better question. With accepted organizations who are racist black supremists by a large portion of the black community including abagond. I question whether the countless black men who date white women still harbor the hatred for white people and feel its ok when they conquer a white woman. not because they are open to racial solidarity but because they are taking advantage of these white girls weilding thier expired race cards in wallets.
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@ Dave… which racist Black supremacist organizations do you think that a large proportion of the Black community supports?
Or is that just hyperbole?
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I think both white men and white women are equally racist. Of course my statement only applies to racist whites. I notice that white women get a pass for their racism while white men are taken to the toolshed for their racism.
In essence I’ve always believed women are more treacherous than men because people perceive women to be less threatening.
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Examples of racist white women in the US House of Reps…all of them are Republicans: Marsha Blackburn, Michelle Bachman and Rene Ellmers!
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George,
You’re so right.
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They r just as racist because they have a problem with a black woman if she’s dating a white guy, but if its black guy and white girl they don’t get mad. They r always giving me and my bf who’s white racist unapproved looks. White men don’t get mad if they c a black woman with a white man. But white women do. If its not a white woman with a man, they get mad. They have extreme jealousy of black women that’s why they want everything we have.
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I’m almost inclined to think that ww are more racist than wm, especially towards bw, for these specific reasons (that also happened to me, personally):
1. In my elementary school years, the four girls I knew (who had a white mother and a black father) were pretty much explicitly directed by their mothers to NOT foster a friendship with me. Their fathers were absent for whatever reasons, so those bitter, hateful females felt justified in making me, a 7-year-old girl, the target of their racist resentment.
2. One instance during a job search stands out: About four years ago, I was called for a job interview. The woman on the phone was pleasant, complimenting my resume and work history and sounded eager to meet me. When I went in for the interview, her demeanor in person was a complete 180-degree turn from who she portrayed on the phone! She was snide and snotty and looked at my resume like it was a piece of garbage, picking out trivial, petty minutae that didn’t seem to bother her when we spoke about it initially.
My final reason is the most valid, but…no sense revealing too much about myself to an audience that isn’t interested! 😀
I’ll save that for my autobiography…
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From my experience, white men are far more vocal about their racism than white women. Even if that was not the case, I would think white men would be more racist than not only white women, but everyone else (outside of white men) combined.
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“2. One instance during a job search stands out: About four years ago, I was called for a job interview. The woman on the phone was pleasant, complimenting my resume and work history and sounded eager to meet me. When I went in for the interview, her demeanor in person was a complete 180-degree turn from who she portrayed on the phone! She was snide and snotty and looked at my resume like it was a piece of garbage, picking out trivial, petty minutae that didn’t seem to bother her when we spoke about it initially.”
That’s effed up. Thanks for sharing.
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i am a chinese man. i have noticed that white women are more racist than white men. this is according to my own experience. i have known racist white men, who were openly racist about their racism. one guy even told me to never trust black people. this same guy refered to vietnamese as gooks. i also remember inviting some white guy to my birthday party (he showed up), and he also refered to asians as gooks. i never really put much thought into this stuff as a child. thats why i invited him. my parents also never explained racism to me. i also used to eat lunch with another racist/bully/jock. we used to throw the football around. he is one of those white racists that try to turn things around, and act like white people are the victims. even though these guys were racist, they still invited me into their homes, pretended to get along with me, and tolerated my presence. i did not get along with all racists. i have gotten into a few fights with some jewish, hispanic, black, white racists. i even got jumped by some hindus once. i cant prove that any of the fights were racially motivated, although it was very likely in the times that i got into confrontations with the jew, and another irish american. sometimes the jews will get other people to go against you, rather than fight you directly. i also saw this with a german american. the german american was not able to defeat me in a fight, so he tried to get others to turn against me. on the other hand, racist white women displayed open hostility towards me. there were also white women who were friendly towards me, but if you compared 10 random white people, i would say that the women are worse.
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I think that the ‘intersectional’ factor has still not occurred to most White women yet. By this I mean..they may think that they are less racist, because they are liberals, but this is precisely the problem with White Feminism vs. Black Feminism. It is seen as an extension of White Patriarchal racism; although liberal. On the other hand, there are still those White women that are ‘direct’ extensions of the Patriarchy, that support White Males entirely; especially in their jealousies towards Black women. So..does that mean that they are more or less racist? I don’t know. I think that it makes it a little more. They only favor Black men because it White=All Males, & that flatters them to subjugate both Black men and further subjugate Black women. I don’t know..just a thought. I have seen it done this way alot.
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You all crack me up, all trying use big words and out intellect each other, I can humbly admit I’m probably not as smart as half of you on this blog, but I can say I do know (as a black woman) what it feels like to be on the receiving end of racism. The problem is you all keep trying to bring scientific data and statistics into this topic when really it’s largely fulled by emotions. As a black women it hurts when you’re told you aren’t as pretty or desirable as other women. It hurts when you’re told you have the wrong type of hair, or mannish features. It hurts when people paint you into a militant-finger-waving-hands-on-hips-weaving-wearing-hate-my-baby-daddy-overweight-stereotype. I mean it really hurts. It really hurts when the ones saying this is black me. All I hear on this site is give examples or quotes, we are telling you as black women that we receive a lot of hate and racism from white women (not all) shouldn’t that be enough? Why would we lie? What would he possibly have to gain? We are villainized and called delusional for liking white men, because they can’t possibly be interested in a black women. I’m not the mouth piece for every black women, but I bet a lot would agree. Society sees black women as less than women even less than human, and when we try and talk about it were seen as angry. Of course were angry who wouldn’t be? It doesn’t feel good especially as a woman to be treated that way. I think a lot of the anger comes not from the dissing, but from the lack of admitting to the dissing. Do so black women on here have ulterior motive, probably we’re all human and nobody’s perfect, we all have faults and as blacks we are all guilty of self hate from time to time, but what’s worse is the hating each other. How can we over come if we can’t even get along? It sickens me. What do you think Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. would say if he saw this blog? He’d probably be in tears. Where does finger pointing get us expect angrier at each other? People say they want to overcome racism, but I just have a hard time believing it given the fact that we try so hard to hang on to it. It’s a shame we keep wasting so much time and effort on keeping racism alive, what is wrong with us as human that we can’t let go of the past and move forward? I swear we are doomed to repeat the same sins of the past because we are too stupid and too immature to let go of them. Maybe I’m too sensitive or naive, but I love humanity and I think it’s such a waste that we keep on breaking it down to the sum of it’s parts and we keep on hating each other. I’m not perfect I can’t say I’ve never had a sexist, racist, or prejudice thought, but I try not to,because life is to short and I’d rather see the good in people, and I know we could be good if we all tried a little harder, but I don’t any of the ism going anywhere anytime soon, and it’s a damn shame, we aren’t born racism we become that way. When we are babies we don’t care who we play with until someone tells us other wise. How utterly sad is that, is that all we have to offer up to the next generation? I know I’m on a soap box, but ism is something that really bothers me, I just want to live my life and I want all of you to life yours with out hate, blame, or fear. It’s sad that the only constants in life are death and racism. Think about it(really think about it) before you open your mouth and insult someone that you don’t even know. Hurt people hurt people. Life is short live laugh and forgive. I don’t know why I’m here and I don’t know where I’m going but I know I don’t want to go there with hate in my heart. I wish you all well in live (even the haters .) Remember we only get one live, how do you want to live it?
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Rachell,
I think that you need to do a little more studying about the concept of racism. It is not enought to state that there is liberalism and ‘color-blind racism’, and we should ‘All get along’, like that ill-fated spokesman for weak and confused Black people-Rodney King. There is a long history concerning studying the ‘construction of race’, that is very important; especially if we want to begin breaking down racism, and ‘deconstructing it.’. I would suggest you read something by Audre Lourde. “The Master’s Tools Will never Dismantle the Master’s House,” published in *Sister Outsider details alot of the issues within this discussion. You cannot even begin to understand anything about this issue or even racism in general; until you have studied. It is quite common to think that Black studies, Sociology, Black women’s studies; or even Feminism in general are easy subjects to understand. You are quite child-like within your response, and it shows that you have absolutely no idea what is going on. It is indicative of my 17 year old daughter writing your post. But even she deserves more credit, for knowing more than that.
So, I will not honor your post with a valid or educated reply. All of this ‘education stuff’ really helps; if you even begin to understand ANYTHING that is going on within the real world. This issue is not about some fantasy that white women and others have that their opinion even matters. It doesn’t. Those statements you made were simple, and not well thought out. It ‘hurts our feelings’. PLEASE. More like..it makes us wonder what their level of intellect really is, and why we have to be subjected to being patronized by those that are not that intelligent. But as you indicate, we can have unintelligent people of ALL races, that goes without saying. I appreciate your opinion; although no where near valid. You need to study this issue. It is a very complicated issue. But to break it down for you-society sees Black men as White men. White women see themselves as extensions of White Men; therefore Black men are only versions of White men in their eyes, and Black women are only versions of both White men, themselves, and lastly Black men (In that order). Therefore; neither Black men or women truly have their own identities. They are only extensions of White male privilege. So when White women see Black women, they instantly compare them to themselves, and White men. If that does not satisfy the criterior; then they create a parallel to Black men; as White men’s equivalent; thus giving Black women NO REAL IDENTITY. We are simply there to justify White/Black male privilege. Jealousy is often embed & trust me, we are not the ones with our feelings truly being hurt. Black women are truly angels for not voicing their true opinions. You are sadly mistaken. Black women are not here for a fake liberal version of a MLK speech. Those days are gone. Get real. You need to Study Black Feminism. Your post was ridiculously simple-minded. End it.
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@Alisha M.Gray
First of all don’t assume just because I said people on here are smarter than me doesn’t me that I’m not well read or haven’t study Black History, I am Black History.No need to attack me or try to make me feel small or less than black because I don’t share you views on things. We are both beautiful black women who are allowed to have different opinions. If you want me to be well read as you presume I’m not try talking to me and not at me. I was being very tongue and cheek, Don’t be patronizing to me by saying “educational stuff” as if I don’t have an education thank you very much. You are not me and you don’t know how I feel..Secondly, I do believe I said that I’m not the mouth piece for ALL black women did I not? Don’t tell me what I need to study honey. Both of my parents were from the South and faced much racism and hardships. One of my cousins is on the wall at the Civil Rights Museum in Savannah Georgia. She was one of the first black women to be integrated into an all white school, and you had to have the brains and grades to be accepted into the program that allowed young black women to be integrated into an all white school, so please don’t get it twisted. I am not at all down playing the struggle that blacks went though, but we do need to start healing and stop hating that means all people. I still believe we were not put on this Earth to hate each other for something as trite as skin color. I DO NOT appreciate your talking down to me as if I was a child of six or seven. I didn’t throw shade at you so please don’t throw your hate my way, hate doesn’t have a place in my heart. I think you need to grow-up, what exactly did I say that has you so angry? That we should all get along? Did I once say we should forget the past? Did I say we shouldn’t study Black History.I still stand by what I said I really don’t care if you like it or not. I’m still a Black women still face prejudice, and top all of I have to be talked down to by you . Maybe the world could use a little more idealistic people like me.I have my I will say what I want and feel how I feel, and I don’t care if it’s the popular opinion or not. How are we to move past racism if we keep seeing every little thing in color? You call it idealistic and weak-minded and confused because I want to see past color? Race is just a word that man uses to keeps us separated and we keep using to keep ourselves separated. Or to borrow form Wikipedia in terms I’m sure you’ll appreciate: Among humans, race has no taxonomic significance; all people belong to the same hominid subspecies, Homo sapiens sapiens. There is no “Race” there is only skin color and culture, getting along with other “races” and wanting to be color blind doesn’t mean losing you identity. Don’t tell my opinion isn’t valid just because you don’t agree with it. I know that as Black women we have a lot to over come, we are double minorities as women and as African-Americans and society does not value our opinions or feelings much because of this. We are put down and stereotyped, but we can marry, date, and work next to white men and women, then I would hope one day we could move past “race” or would rather we just keep on seeing the world in black in white? I don’t know about you but I want to be seen not just as a Black woman, but a woman and a human.
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I’m going to keep this short.
1) White women are in fact less racist than men. When women (of any race) are racist, they learn those beliefs from their FATHERS. Of course there are white female racists, I have seen them, but usually I am pretty surprised when I see it. On a whole, women definitely can be catty and jealous, but do tend to see past race and more into what they have in common with other women.
2) If it comes down to the old adage of choosing between race vs gender, especially with black women, smart women would choose gender every time. That is not coming from a skewed feminist point of view, it’s just common sense. It’s a black myth that they have ever cared and protected their people. Where is your evidence of that? Black men have NEVER done anything to help anyone. Everything they have ever done was ONLY to benefit black men, and barely that. Case in point, since people want to bring up history; it was black men did not want black women or other people of color to be able to vote. They saw them as LESS than black men (which is ironic given what they are). While I am no fan of the feminist movement, especially modern feminism, white women were the ones who offered black women a chance to break free of the abuse and sexism from black men. Black men are a MUCH bigger, *dangerous* problem than white men. Look at modern day African countries (and any other black country). Women suffer from the effects of what these “men” do-the civil wars, the rape (over 500,000 women and children annually), the violence, the poverty, all caused by them. Not white men, not white women, not black women. Other men were building successful, safe, non-violent societies, they built mud huts and their weapons of choice were spears and they traded some of their people into slavery for cheap trinkets and beads. There is STILL slavery going on in Africa, not by white males, guess who? The violence is those countries does not even compare to the violence of the Middle East, The most racism you will face is not from white people-and you know it. It’s from black males. White people are just an excuse. I don’t understand why you don’t leave them to sink and die. Are those people you really want to have children with solely for the preservation of the black race? What you are doing is breeding more of them and more of the same problems and the cycle continues. Your heritage lives on, no matter who you marry and have children with. Here comes the part where people get upset, why SHOULD you care if they lynch black men? That would only be to YOUR benefit.
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linkinbabe says,
They r just as racist because they have a problem with a black woman if she’s dating a white guy, but if its black guy and white girl they don’t get mad. They r always giving me and my bf who’s white racist unapproved looks. White men don’t get mad if they c a black woman with a white man. But white women do. If its not a white woman with a man, they get mad. They have extreme jealousy of black women that’s why they want everything we have.
Alisha says,
I think that the ‘intersectional’ factor has still not occurred to most White women yet. By this I mean..they may think that they are less racist, because they are liberals, but this is precisely the problem with White Feminism vs. Black Feminism. It is seen as an extension of White Patriarchal racism; although liberal. On the other hand, there are still those White women that are ‘direct’ extensions of the Patriarchy, that support White Males entirely; especially in their jealousies towards Black women. So..does that mean that they are more or less racist? I don’t know. I think that it makes it a little more. They only favor Black men because it White=All Males, & that flatters them to subjugate both Black men and further subjugate Black women. I don’t know..just a thought. I have seen it done this way alot.
sepultura13 says,
I’m almost inclined to think that ww are more racist than wm, especially towards bw, for these specific reasons (that also happened to me, personally):
1. In my elementary school years, the four girls I knew (who had a white mother and a black father) were pretty much explicitly directed by their mothers to NOT foster a friendship with me. Their fathers were absent for whatever reasons, so those bitter, hateful females felt justified in making me, a 7-year-old girl, the target of their racist resentment.
2. One instance during a job search stands out: About four years ago, I was called for a job interview. The woman on the phone was pleasant, complimenting my resume and work history and sounded eager to meet me. When I went in for the interview, her demeanor in person was a complete 180-degree turn from who she portrayed on the phone! She was snide and snotty and looked at my resume like it was a piece of garbage, picking out trivial, petty minutae that didn’t seem to bother her when we spoke about it initially.
My final reason is the most valid, but…no sense revealing too much about myself to an audience that isn’t interested!
I’ll save that for my autobiography…
laromana says,
linkinbabe, Alisha, sepultura13,
Thanks for your EXCELLENT comments. I especially appreciate your willingness/openness/honesty in sharing personal instances where WW were JUST AS RACIST to you as WM. I, too, have experienced this.
I think that, like RACIST WM, RACIST WW need to be held ACCOUNTABLE for their racism, instead of being allowed to get away with this UNACCEPTABLE behavior on the basis of WHITE FEMALE ENTITLEMENT (which is so typical in American culture) .
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Are there no black racists then?
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No.
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@ dave windsor (now with the royal twist)
Black people are full of goodness and love for their fellow humans, and are family orientated and not money orientated that is until many of us become corrupted by western money motivated culture.
Besides, most of the time, as I have seen it, it is white people that encourage their children to be racist to others and come up with all the racist names and slangs.
Black people are mostly always loving and welcoming to others.
I hope that helps to answer your question.
Are white American women less racist than white men? No, equally so.
Also, some people seem to think that just because they are with someone of a different colour, that it automatically erases their racial prejudices, which is just NOT the case.
People can get married to someone of a different race or colour and still have hang-ups about colour, mainly because sometimes they will like the individual but not necessarily others in that race.
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White women are just as bad yes they do marry black guys but what about Asian or hispanic guys? You rarely see much of that I’m Hispanic myself and even though it’s not a race they are still ignorant and chances of me getting a white girl are slim unless they are poor!
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White women are just as bad yes they do marry black guys but what about Asian or hispanic guys
Count your blessings.
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I really wonder who thinks this? My guess would be the few of our black brothers and other men of color who prefer white women to all other women? I don’t know why though. You prefer what you prefer but there is no historical evidence to prove white women are less racist than the white men in their communities. Case in point– i have male relatives who have been in serious romantic relationships with white women–and around our family they were charming. But all of these relationships ended and according to my male relatives it was because “i thought she was different, but she did x or said x and it can’t work.”
I am also guessing that on average, well-meaning white women believe that they are not racist. The fact of the matter is ALL whites have to confront themselves and their racist notions.
There are plenty of white girls i have befriended over the years and at some point in my friendships with them, i am reminded that indeed i am the black girl. Which subsequently ended the friendship because what they were “saying” by “reminding” me was that they were “better” and i must not challenge them in their ideas or beliefs. So in short, my experience has been it is just as hard to deal with white female racism as it is white male racism.
Although this post is not about IRR–black people should be very cautious when choosing white partners. Sometimes you will luck up and find a white man or woman who is willing to fight against the oppression of people of color–but i am assuming it is like finding a needle in a haystack. This applies to platonic friendships as well.
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I think we all have to agree with abagond. Just for the simple fact that this is the view from his life experiences. You cannot tell someone they are wrong for thinking a certain way. It is their experiences not yours…if you disagree with the overall message..then find a way, staying on topic, that is not trying to undermine him, and respectful, to share YOUR first hand personal life experiences and not others that you have “heard about” or statistics that are often wrong when it comes to racism because now days people are not always going to admit when they are racist. In my opinion their are three types of racists…The Knowing Racist (the self admitted racist with no intent on changing), The Unknowing Racist (the self proclaimed non-racist that has no clue what is racist in the eyes of the beholder…in my opinion is the most dangerous kind), and The Enlightened Racist (the unknowing racist that becomes aware to the fact that they really are racist and begins the educational process of learning and listening to what they can do to change).
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@ Abagond
White women, as to my own experiences, are just as racist as men but even more blinded to their racist tendencies due to the fact that historically, they were protected from having to “own up to it.”
Men were called out on it. Women were sheltered for being “delicate.”
http://diaryofanegress.com/2012/05/24/why-white-women-keep-silent-when-michelle-obama-is-being-attacked/
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@truthbetold
I have to agree with you on that but I would also like to add that I feel it also has to do with demographic location. I found that white women from the north are more inclined to hide it where as white women in the south are quite forward in most parts with their disapproving looks and comments, also there are quite a few that will blatantly tell you how they feel. I live in the south now, but I grew up in the north, a small all white town that was quiet about their racism. My mother was always afraid for me because she thought I would get caught in a “race riot” because of my friends. She always warned me “they stick with their kind”. I was never allowed to bring my friends over. My parents always said it was because they feared for my friends safety and my family’s safety. They were afraid that if anyone found out I had friends from the next town over…then they would start harassing us and burning crosses in our yard. I was always mad at them and they always told me that I didn’t understand because I didn’t live through it. I may not have lived through it but, in my opinion, their fear only fed racism. When I graduated I went into the army and moved down south. My first full day at my permanent duty station was my very first experience with blatant racism. I was with a fellow soldier and we went to the mall. An old white woman approached me and stood 1 foot away from me…looked at the guy I was with (who happened to be black) looked back at me and said “Oh my God!” in a disgusted manner. She then proceeded to tell me that I should be ashamed of myself. At that point I did not know what she was referring to…but the soldier I was with took me aside and filled me in. I did not know what to say. I had so many emotions running through me but I could not imagine how it must have felt for him. Since then it has been one incident right after another over the past 17 years, either I saw it happening to someone or it was directed at me or my child (who is white) by other white women.
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@Herneith
lmbo that is a good one. I have seen that so many times….Soldiers are the prime targets. When I was in the army…literally car loads would come on post to try and get them a soldier for their steady paycheck. We called them “Barracks Rats”! lol
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I would say White women are at least as racist as white men, especially the older they get.
But even the younger ones can be pretty racist; gotten some pretty bizarre looks of extreme betrayal from white women when they realize I’m attracted to black women or when they see me interacting with them.
Looks I didn’t get from them when it was white women I interacted with that way.
And these were women in relationships so it really shouldn’t have mattered either way.
Then take in the crazy stuff some of the older white women will say; directly to the faces of them at work……and yeah.
If white women come off as less racist; its because they’ve always had white men to do the dirty work for them.
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@ Michelle
Thank you for that. I was in the south, on assignment multiple times, and I too felt the blatant racism. Southerners are a complicated bunch….some of them still believe they “won the war.” In fact, the bitterness about the war is rampant amongst older folks down there.
As for the women, they couldn’t be worse. I also agree with V-4, white women have had the luxuryof telling and urging their men to do their bad deeds, which the men do willingly.
The Katrina assignment was the worst. I feel into a deep depression when I came back…in all that chaos, white hatred was raging…but, that’s another story.
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@truthbetold
I am sincerely sorry that you had to experience the blatant racism…It is a disgrace that so many people I have talked to felt that “New Orleans deserved the punishment they got from God” I also agree with you and V-4 about white women having the luxury of telling and urging their men to do their bad deeds. Things that happened years ago are still happening today. Down here the women call it “southern hospitality” I hear the same negative remarks, about “white boys dating (fill in racist word)” or “white girls dating (fill in racist word)” or the typical jealous white female remarks of white men dating black. I will not state those because they are to hurtful and I don’t want to cause anyone on here more pain…I feel you have heard too much hate in your life and I don’t want to add more. But what I have learned by grilling these girls (I use the term “girls” and “boys” because real women and men are educated, mature, and decent people by my definition) is that their racism spans from one place…jealousy. Yes…white girls are jealous of black women. Yes…white girls are intimidated by what black women have to offer. Yes…white girls say they are better, but inside they know they are not and that is where the jealousy comes in. It is my opinion that white girls and boys that are racist and use ignorant reasons to justify it…well it is a “cop out” they are afraid to admit the real reasons…they are jealous…they know that they have more competition now and it angers them. It was drilled into their heads by their families for generations that black people were stupid, illiterate, could never amount to anything…and then….oh shit…we were wrong. Then to try and justify their ignorant beliefs they then go on to “explain” as to why these “insert offensive word here” are able to “get over on everything” and “have everything handed to them by the government”. Sarcasm follows…Oh but it couldn’t possibly be that the black population really are educated and have a better understanding of the job they are competing against…Oh but It couldn’t be that a black woman is just as honorable, compassionate, loving and beautiful as a white woman….Oh it couldn’t be that a black man could be just as honorable, compassionate, loving and handsome as a white man.
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White women are users and always have been, heck white women today are racist against white men, funniest dam thing ever. I work around white women and they will side against white men in favor of blacks.
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White women are also racist because their parents over protect them a lot. Lot of times, they’ll ditch a nice, thoughtful, loyal minority man, even if he is black, for a racist white man their parents like. White women are only racist when it comes to dating, relationships, and marriage.
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I think when white women are racist it is more sly, racist white men have no qualms about saying something racist & can be more open about it in real life, but online I notice racist white women come out of the woodwork & often don’t shy away from racist comments as they are anonymous. Upon hearing that the actor michael fassbender has a black girlfriend and has had black girlfriends in the past, a white women has started a blog spewing venom about black women using the old classic racist monkey racist & this women swears she isn’t racist. Of course a racist rarely admits they are racist.
http://gorillahunter.tumblr.com/
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Lol at the black men on this blog. I read the squabble between bm and bw. And sorry, I must admit that _ wait no apology.All white woman are just as racist as wm. The only difference in masculinity is oward so they will be more vocal and femininity is subtle and inward. So the ww will show passive aggresive comments and very subtle manipulation. With that being sad just because you have sex with someone doesn’t mean you are NOT rascist. My bm brother married a wm who called him a lots of racist tems ,”n word” and was a fan of microaggression. Did I mention she had his child? She also expressed discontempt for her child’s hair texture etc. I can understand where the bm and bw who date IR are coming from? Who wants to acknowledge the person you are sleeping with thinks you and your people are “inferior”. And if they do “care” about you, you are the exception and everyone else is disgusting. This person you show your most vulnerable side can’t think that way. You let them see you naked. You let them touch you! Who wants to think about that!?
No one. So I understand the avoidance of the topic and derailment going on here.
Next question: white woman are less racist…
Why do higher numbers of ww go with black men? Because of the “mandigo myth”. Sorry to disappoint you but this is underlying in their racial collective unconscious. Same for wm who want bm, even if it isn’t at the forefront it is still there. If a white person it not outwardly racist then they are unconsciously racist hence “The Bluest Eye.” Even Martin Luther King agreed with that statement.
If you were told you were superior more than likely you will think so or it will affect what you say or do. As for bm going with nonblack woman and bashing bw, it happens but I don’t care who you date. BW stop acting as if those type of bw bashing bm were prizes. Apparently you “lost” nothing but a guy who hates you and himself (visa versa). Who wants that? Secondly bw do bash bm vocally but since they are female (yes FEMALE) they naturally would be a little more low key on their opinions but they still are self haters as well. Dumb stereotypes aside.
Are white woman less racist than white men? Hell no. They are equal in racism but show it different ways hence gender differences. White men = white woman. Period. As for IRRs I will use the 5% population rule. Only five percent hasn’t been brainwashed so yes there is the “oversexed blacks” stereotype in most if not all whites heads.
Sorry bm – white are just as racist as ww. No exceptions. Go date them. Who gives a care? And yes bw , white men are no better. But this blog post has been derailed to the subject of the “shortcomings” by many bw on this post when it is supposed to be about the simple title. I know Cognitive Dissonance and Stockholm Syndrome has settled in at the mere mention of this title but just look at it without your bias. Simple question. Simple answer. Yes. They are. Deal with it. Now go warm each others beds.
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* I mean ” yes. They are just as racist as white men. Oops typo!
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NOOOO! I was bullied by White females in school and I didn’t do anything to them either. Plus many of them held subconscious racial biases against minorities and thought that they were better. They hated the fact that I wore braids and looked nice in them instead of wearing my hair straight. They hated the fact that I received better grades than most of them. I guess they disliked everything about me even when Black guys showed interest in me.
The White males try to make me out as a oversexed Jezebel, which I am not. They would pick out my butt, which is big on my petite figure. Many of them were fascinated by me, which I found strange.
This was 9th grade year. I will be a senior this fall and I will always remember that experience.
White women are very racist. They are just as racist as their White male counterparts. When will Black men realize that?
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point out my butt.
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Some posts cause you to giggle, some posts make you fesel sad,this one
made me think, and that iis the best reaction of all.
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Right on the money as usual, Abagond. And the hypocrisy of an -ism being ok when it’s helpful but bad when it’s hurtful
In my experience white females often (but not always) seem MORE racist than the men. They both can be unfair in the economics world, yes. But socially I think white women are more prone to believing stereotypes more deeply and strongly than their brothers are; These females are more shallow and prejudicial and less logical (women). It saddens me a little to see how sweet they can be to a little black baby knowing how they might treat it when it grows up and they find it threatening, not cute.
I think the idea that they would be less racist is stereotypical. The assumption that women are kind, compassionate, loving and that kindness, compassion and love are feminine traits. I have found men to be just as capable of these things.
Changing the subject a little to something else you mentioned, yeah. Sexism is a trickier thing with a harder reality-to-ideal gradient but some things are obvious.. A black man wouldn’t like if a white man portrayed blacks serving them, but there’s all these music videos of them surrounded by these half-naked video girls. That strikes me as a double standard.
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Wow, I’m speechless. The issues you brought up in this post are mind blowing. You’re an observant, intelligent and empathetic thinker.
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[…] Are white women less racist than white men? | Abagond […]
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