“Asian Americans have a higher median family income” than whites is something that White Americans like to point out. It is repeated so much that it seems to be a stock part of the white racist imagination – like black rapists.
Median family income in 2000:
- $59,000 Asian American
- $48,500 white
- $36,000 Latino
- $33,300 black
- $32,240 Native American
So it is true!
See that: Asians come to America with nothing and, pulling themselves up by their bootstraps, they pass not just blacks but whites too! Whatever is holding back blacks, Latinos and Native Americans it is certainly not racism!
And look how well it falls in line with IQ:
- 106 South Korea
- 105 Japan
- 104 Taiwan
- 101 White America
- 87 Mexico
- 85 Black America
Proof that American society is not racist! For all its faults, it manages to reward people according to merit regardless of race. Blacks need to stop complaining and grow up! Besides, how can whites be racist if they think Asians are better?
As it turns out, “Asian Americans have a higher median family income” is very carefully worded.
Change “family income” to “personal income”, for example, and look at what you get:
- $24,000 whites
- $23,000
- $22,000
- $21,000
- $20,000 Asian American
- $19,000
- $18,000
- $17,000
- $16,000 blacks
- $15,000 Native Americans
- $14,000 Latinos
Asian Americans top whites in family income only because Asian families have on average more people working. It has nothing to do with IQ.
And now break down “Asian American” by nationality:
- $26,000 Japanese, Asian Indians
- $25,000
- $24,000 whites
- $23,000 Filipinos
- $22,000
- $21,000
- $20,000 Asian American, Chinese
- $19,000 Pacific Islanders
- $18,000
- $17,000
- $16,000 blacks, Koreans, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Laotians
- $15,000 Native Americans
- $14,000 Latinos
“Asian American” covers such a broad range that it is next to useless.
And so much for bootstraps: Most who fled Indo-China after the Vietnam War and came to America with next to nothing are still at the bottom, making less than blacks on average.
Even Korean Americans, despite their supposedly high IQs, have not clearly passed blacks, much less whites: they are the same as blacks in terms of median personal income ($16,300) and rate of home ownership (a bit over half).
Middle-class whites mainly just know middle-class Asian Americans. Unlike black poverty, they rarely see Asian American poverty on television.
Whites are paid more for the same level of education: Asian Americans, like blacks, have to stay in school longer to get paid the same as a white person:
Increase in yearly income for every year at university:
- $550
- $525 whites
- $500
- $475
- $450 Japanese
- $425
- $400
- $375
- $350
- $325 Chinese
- $300
- $275 blacks
- $250
So “median family income” was picked not because whites are simply “seeing the world as it is” but because it is one of the few numbers that supports the white stereotype about Asians as a model minority, which in turn makes it seem like American society is not racist.
That is just how stereotypes work: they are self-serving beliefs that lead one to notice the facts that fit them and overlook those that do not. It is called confirmation bias.
Like with crime statistics, whites will pick and choose and twist the numbers till they come out “right” and support what they want to believe anyway.
See also:
- The Model Minority Image by C. N. Le – where I got most of my numbers. There is way more of what I talked about there: the census figures for poverty rates, high school completion rates, home ownership, etc, broken down by nationality. Wonderful stuff. I found out about it at Restructure!:
- Restructure!: Why are Asians successful? Are Asians smarter? – good overview. She goes into the Klineberg study on Asian American class mobility, which is nothing like the pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps stuff that white people like to imagine.
- Tim Wise: How Whites Use Asians to Further Anti-Black Racism
- The Three Bears Effect
- confirmation bias
- Dear Chuck: about black crime and stereotypes – another example of how stereotypes affect what people hear and remember about statistics
- race and crime and poverty and television – how American television gives people a false, racialized idea of poverty and crime in America
“Increase in yearly income for every year at university”
This strikes me as a highly dubious statistic. For instance, some cultures might tend towards more years of education overall, so you’d expect diminishing returns for even further years.
It does not imply “whites are paid more for the same level of education”. It implies whites are paid more for extra education, or lose more for less education. For instance, Japanese are paid $2000/year more than whites. But apparently that advantage is wiped out when both get an extra, um, 27 years of education.
Wow, very eye-opening. So much for White Americans arguing that Asian Americans should never complain about racism because they are ‘better off’ than White people.
This. From my personal experience, I know many Filipinos having at least three or more household members participating in the workforce. For example, when my sister and I were young teens, we were already helping out our family. It was not uncommon to see Filipino teenagers hand their own money to their parents.
When they say “Asian American” are they also including people from India?
Asian Americans top whites in family income only because Asian families have on average more people working. It has nothing to do with IQ.
You’ve only provided data on the first statement, while the second is as yet unsubstantiated.
Furthermore, your analysis demonstrates that hard work=better rewards regardless of race.
And so much for bootstraps: Most who fled Indo-China after the Vietnam War and came to America with next to nothing are still at the bottom, making less than blacks on average.
By your comparison, black folks come off looking even worse, not being able to economically surpass refugees from war-torn countries who grew up in the 3rd world and had none of the benefits of a 1st world education and native fluency of the language. Many are forced to take low-level jobs due to lack of higher skills and experience.
Despite these hardships, they’re still able to send their children to top colleges at a greater rate than even whites (as you previously pointed out), a fact that actually argues against racism being a barrier to social mobility.
Whites are paid more for the same level of education: Asian Americans, like blacks, have to stay in school longer to get paid the same as a white person:
The economic value of education cannot be determined by just counting “number of years”.
Ella:”Wow, very eye-opening. So much for White Americans arguing that Asian Americans should never complain about racism because they are ‘better off’ than White people.”
Racism, as characterized in this post, is not about being “better off”, rather it’s about whether race inhibits social mobility. Abagond’s last 2 posts actually demonstrate that despite often coming from impoverished backgrounds, asians have been able to outperform native-born Americans of all races.
Anyone who goes around thinking that IQ is somehow related to income level has never worked a day in their life.
It may be the case in some academic fields I suppose. But generally speaking? no. There are plenty of idiots out there making bank. Sarah Palin is not an anomaly.
The fact Japanese and Asian Indian Americans make more money than WP does not surprise me. How much money your community makes is just a reflection of how much your community values hard work, education, and targeting specific well paying vocations, Versus whatever push back you receive from life in general, including but not limited to racism and poverty
Thank you so much for this post. You have no idea how many times people(usually white) will flash this “argument” during az debate. I always try to explain that Asian families usually have more people working and its not uncommon for extended family members to live together in one home. I was talking with my roommate about this and she said it’s one of the biggest lies people tell.
My roommate is Vietnamese-American, btw.
@ Y:
Yes, when one of my 1st cousins immigrated, she was living with my family for the time being and contributing financially as well.
@Y
I’ve heard this same argument from Africans as well. But maybe they have same living situation as the Asian families like you mentioned.
I think some white people who try to defend the statistics, don’t ever see any Asians in real life.
I worked with Asians in a tech field, I see where some who have recently immigrated have taken a longer time to get a degree and are usually older than their white counterparts, so comparatively they are not making the income at the same stage of life.
I also think that going into more technical fields would boost income, because all degrees are not rated equally in the market place and advanced degrees in some fields just give you a foot in the door. An example, at one time an IT person with a two year degree could make more than a graduate engineer, because people who knew how to manipulate computers are considered more valuable than those who actually know the science and engineering of how computers work; the physics of the silicon.
You would have to look more deeply in the census statistics to compare types of degrees and jobs. Outside of who you know, that makes the most difference in the money you make. It is not the work ethic or hard work.
Now who you know really effects Asians and Blacks. I have seen it effect Asians, even though they may be considered model minority. White privilege will never be denied.
A lot of the poor Asians, I would guess miss being counted in the census, because that is the case for most poor people. So when people are drawing the histogram in their heads, the data for low income isn’t there and that would tend to skew the median. This may be the case for white folks, but their population is about five fold any minority and the missing data will not have the same effect.
“Racism, as characterized in this post, is not about being “better off”, rather it’s about whether race inhibits social mobility. Abagond’s last 2 posts actually demonstrate that despite often coming from impoverished backgrounds, asians have been able to outperform native-born Americans of all races.”
Actually, Asian immigrants are on parity with many other immigrant groups. There is very little difference between the numbers of Afro-Carribean immigrants and Asian immigrants. The key is to look at 1st and 2nd generation IMMIGRANT populations, rather than trying to compare one long-standing American ethnic population against a higher-percentage immigrant ethnic population.
I was not saying that it was about being ‘better off’. I was saying that ‘Asians are better off than White people’ is an argument often used whenever an Asian person says anything about racism in order to shut them up. Also, that this article implies that particular argument is invalid.
Is it me or is Abagond’s blog “snowing”?
@Y:
It’s not just you.
*sigh* snow.
and in todays world…we’re all broke.
@ Y:
It is my blog
@ Randy Garver:
Please read what I wrote. It does not support your points.
To believe what you wrote one must assume:
1. All Asian immigrants start at the bottom, even those who got into the country in the first place because of their education, like nurses, engineers and doctors.
2. Blacks do not face racism.
As far as I can tell, neither are true. In fact they are wildly untrue.
“Asian American” covers such a broad range that it is next to useless.
But so does “black American”. Does that include black Africans, black Europeans, black people from the Caribbean as well as black Latinos?
Great entry, Abagond, and I also like the snow effect.
Abagond:
“To believe what you wrote one must assume:
1. All Asian immigrants start at the bottom, even those who got into the country in the first place because of their education, like nurses, engineers and doctors.”
I was specifically referring to your comment about “And so much for bootstraps: Most who fled Indo-China after the Vietnam War and came to America with next to nothing are still at the bottom, making less than blacks on average.”
One would expect war-refugees from a 3rd world mostly agrarian country to start at the bottom. That their children have higher rates of educational access and degree attainment than native born Americans of all races indicates that “bootstrapping” is indeed alive and well.
Abagond: “…2. Blacks do not face racism.”
I haven’t said this because I don’t believe it. There is no doubt that blacks do face racism. But how limiting is it?
The experience of non-white immigrants (African, Asian, Indian, etc) in providing a better future for their children indicates that racism is not an ultimate barrier to success.
Broadly speaking, African immigrants are as dark or darker than African-americans, yet they apparently have much higher levels of academic success than even native-born whites. This contradicts the “Blacks can’t get ahead because of racism” model.
Ella:”I was not saying that it was about being ‘better off’. I was saying that ‘Asians are better off than White people’ is an argument often used whenever an Asian person says anything about racism in order to shut them up. Also, that this article implies that particular argument is invalid.”
Sorry, I misread your post.
“One would expect war-refugees from a 3rd world mostly agrarian country to start at the bottom.”
It is convenient for Asians to be mostly “war refugees” to make your point. But, of course, most of the Asian immigrants are not war refugees, so your point is unmade.
King
“One would expect war-refugees from a 3rd world mostly agrarian country to start at the bottom.”
It is convenient for Asians to be mostly “war refugees” to make your point. But, of course, most of the Asian immigrants are not war refugees, so your point is unmade.
No one actually said that. Abagond had mentioned that the low income of Indo-China refugees contradicted the concept of “bootstrapping”, which I then argued against.
Randy Garver,
One would expect war-refugees from a 3rd world mostly agrarian country to start at the bottom. That their children have higher rates of educational access and degree attainment than native born Americans of all races indicates that “bootstrapping” is indeed alive and well.
Where did you get this info? Did you look specifically for Vietnamese, Cambodian, Laotian, Kmer and Houmg data. Or do all Asians look or sound alike?
Those statistics are relatively meaningless, unless at least sex, immigration status (first-generation immigrants are often poorer), and place of residence (wages and living costs vary between locations) are controlled for. Lumping together different Asian ethnicities does not make sense, either.
Anyone who goes around thinking that IQ is somehow related to income level has never worked a day in their life.
It may be the case in some academic fields I suppose. But generally speaking? no. There are plenty of idiots out there making bank. Sarah Palin is not an anomaly.
Please learn the difference between anecdotes and statistical data.
Randy Garver said:
“One would expect war-refugees from a 3rd world mostly agrarian country to start at the bottom. That their children have higher rates of educational access and degree attainment than native born Americans of all races indicates that “bootstrapping” is indeed alive and well.”
Sorry, but that is an utter White American fantasy.
Compare black Americans to Vietnamese Americans (using the 2000 census):
less than high school: 29.1% v 37.8%
university degree: 13.6% v 13.8%
For Cambodian, Hmong and Laotian Americans it is even worse: 52.7% have never completed high school while only 9.2% have a university degree – markedly worse than blacks.
Asian Americans in general do have better educations than blacks and even whites, but that is a side effect of American and Canadian immigration policy, which happily allowed an Asian brain drain. It is the brain drain and its children that you mainly see at universities, not the children of war refugees.
Nearly all the Asians I knew at university came from well-to-do families, especially those who came from overseas.
Asian American social mobility has been studied. It is not all that great.
Asian American parents do tend to put great weight on getting a good education, but that is because so many of them have university degrees themselves:
% who have a university degree:
42.9% Asian American
25.3% white
13.6% black
10.8% Native American
9.9% Latino
For all those people who say that racism isn’t a factor in black income or quality of life, let me tell you a story. When I was in my early 20′s, I worked for a nationwide corporation that dealt with retail. I won’t say the name of the company. Well, when I worked for them, I noticed that none of the managers of the stores were black. There were black assistant managers but no managers. Well, some people might say that the white managers may have been more qualified or better workers, but that was nonsense. In one particular instance, we had a white manager who was an alcoholic and often came to work late. His black assistant manager, on the other hand, was hardworking and efficient at his job. He never came to work late and he often had to do not only his job but also the manager’s job when the white manager was late. Instead of promoting the black assistant manager, they replaced the drunk white manager with another white man.
I think your point about the higher family income is not complete, abagond. If Asian Americans (whoever they are) really have a higher family income because more family members are working, wouldn’t lay-offs hit them harder than white people and the effect would equal out? Like, if the family income of Asian Americans was higher than that of white ones before the economic crisis hit, shouldn’t it be lower now?
Using the same 2000 Census data Abagond relied on, it can be shown that Asians born in the US have higher average individual incomes and, for most groups, a lower poverty rate than whites. From “Asian Americans: contemporary trends and issues” (2005) by Pyong Gap Min (ed.), p. 296:
In fact, data from the 2000 Census show that in 1999, the median earnings of native-born Asians aged 25 to 64 already exceeded those of native-born whites. The proportion of second- and higher-generation Asians living under poverty level will be lower than that of the Asian immigrant generation and that of native-born whites. Both the personal and family poverty data from the 2000 Census for native-born Asians, foreign-born Asians, and native-born whites aged 25 to 65 as a whole already confirm this prediction, though the data also reveal large variations across Asian groups. For example, the native born of Japanese, Chinese and Filipino had significantly lower poverty rates than native-born whites, but the native born of Vietnamese, Asian Indians, and Koreans showed higher rates than native-born whites, and the foreign born of Asian Indians and Filipinos fared better than their native-born counterparts, respectively (emphasis added).
This kept happening over and over again. A white manager would be inadequate at his job and instead of replacing him with a black manager or promoting a black assistant manager, they would hire another white man. The black assistant managers would complain to other co-workers about their predicament but were afraid to complain to higher management. Well, this company eventually was bought out by another company. And unlike the previous company, they hired blacks as managers. To this day, I believe the previous company couldn’t get there act to together because it refused to hire quality people, but instead hired people based on race alone. The company that bought them out, is still successful to this day!However, these practices still continue in many companies to this day, where it is easier for whites to be promoted, regardless of their background or work performance, than blacks, even if the black person is more qualified.
Now for those who say that hard work and education changes the lifestyle of all Americans, regardless of race, I agree with them. But I still believe that a black person often has to work twice as hard and be twice as qualified as a white person, in order to be successful, especially in corporate America. Now what many African Americans have failed to do is support one another when it comes to creating and substaining black owned businesses. It is common for immigrants, regardless of nationality, to come here and create their own businesses. And it is often large families that work together in order to maintain those businesses. I personally believe that to be successful, they need to support and create black businesses. I believe that White America will continue to practice racist tactics in major corporations so blacks need to have their own. But in order for us to successful, we have to unite, both on the family level and on the community level.
But how can that happen, when we can’t get along with each other. We are divided on so many levels. One of the biggest problems within the African American community, is the divisiveness between black men and women. I mean, if we can’t raise families together, how are we going to do anything else together. Like I mentioned before, many of these immigrants work together as families, often 10 or 15 family members working within a family owned business. There is way too much divisiveness among blacks for this to work for us. And often many blacks are suspicious of black owned businesses. They often feel that the white or Asian companies are better than any black company. This comes from years of self hatred. So this goes back to blacks overcoming personal obstacles in order to be more successful. We must let go of self destructive tendencies in order to survive.
Abaond: “Compare black Americans to Vietnamese Americans (using the 2000 census):
less than high school: 29.1% v 37.8%
university degree: 13.6% v 13.8%”
According to 2006 figures released by the census bureau, the level of Vietnamese-american bachelor’s degree attainment is 26% (http://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/pdf/cb08-ff05.pdf)
Abagond: “Nearly all the Asians I knew at university came from well-to-do families, especially those who came from overseas.
…
Asian American parents do tend to put great weight on getting a good education, but that is because so many of them have university degrees themselves:”
I think it’s rather speculative to assume that the only reason that asian kids are pressured to achieve educationally is because their parents come from a wealthy and educated elite. I’ve known plenty of asian kids who came from poor families, and they were driven just as hard to succeed.
Here’s a thought experiment – I bet that I can predict the general level of educational success of low income students based only upon the following:
- Time of nightly curfew
- Number of minutes of studying/homework per week
- Number of minutes a parent or guardian spends with the child discussing schoolwork per week.
I’m confident in my predictive abilities regardless of the child’s race, parental education, or parental income.
The
abagond you have to explain how come African Immigrants and children of African immigrants(Barack Obama) do better than native born black Americans.
Is “racism” is the main factor for the lack of educational and professional achievements among black Americans?
I don’t think so.
Is racism a factor? Sure. But so is poverty, social irresponsibility, lack of motivation, encouragement, etc.
I do think racism exists in American society but I don’t think it’s the main reason why blacks don’t succeed.
Unfortunately, the ills of black America are broadcast nightly for the world to watch and pull apart. We never hear much about how badly First Nations people are doing, for example. FN ppl are doing poorly as a whole.
On the flip side, we hear how well Asians are doing, which masks the fact that there are many Asians not doing so well, and that Asians have a fairly high suicide rate from pressures to succeed.
Brilliant post. It proves once again that “statistics” will “prove” what you want them to prove.
What those statistics consistently fail to include is real life situations. One of those situations is that people who are in the position to give jobs will give them to those they like and assume they can trust and will make them money, not necessarily to those who are the most skilled, most experienced and potentially most performant, especially for higher paid jobs. And very certainly not consistently to those with the highest “IQ”. How would employers know each applicant’s IQ anyway? True meritocracy is a myth. If it was a reality I bet those “statistics” would be all over the place.
Last but not least, money is no yard stick for individual performance and/or potential. Not at all.
I believe that immigrants, whether African or otherwise, do better because they have stronger family ties and because they value education. Also, immigrants tend to have their own family owned businesses. And lastly, many immigrants go into fields where racism is not as much as a hinderance such as scientific fields or health care. There is so much a demand in these fields, that racism is often not as much as a factor in terms of who is hired and fired.
That last comment I made was in response to what RedMan 1000 had asked.
LMAO, thats good to know. I was about to call my optometrist….
@ Mei Ly
Yes, Africans do it too.
My family’s household income just went up by 25 percent, because an elderly family member moved in with us!
$end the elder to me!
@ Abagond
Mind if I cross-post to the Narrative?
@ jas0n
Anyone who goes around thinking that IQ is somehow related to income level has never worked a day in their life.
Ankhesenology moment right there.
From Wonderlic manual:
Median IQ, Position
120 Attorney
120 Research analyst
118 Editor & assistant
118 Manager, advertising
116 Chemist
116 Engineer
116 Executive
116 Manager, trainee
116 Systems analyst
114 Auditor
114 Copywriter
113 Accountant
113 Manager/Supervisor
113 Manager, Sales
113 Programmer, Analyst
113 Teacher
111 Adjuster
111 Manager, general
111 Purchasing agent
108 Nurse, registered
108 Sales, Account exec.
108 Administrative asst.
108 Manager, store
106 Bookkeeper
106 Clerk, credit
106 Drafter, Designer
106 Lab tester & tech
106 Manager, assistant
106 Sales, General
106 Sales, Telephone
106 Secretary
104 Clerk, Accounting
104 Collector, Bad Dept
104 Operator, Computer
104 Rep. Guest. Srvc.
104 Sales rep., insurance
104 Technician
102 Automotive salesman
102 Clerk, typist
102 Dispatcher
102 Office, general
102 Police, patrol off.
102 Receptionist
100 Cashier
100 Clerical, general
100 Inside sales clerk
100 Meter reader
100 Printer
100 Teller
98 Data Entry
98 Electrical helper
98 Machinist
98 Manager, food dept.
98 Quality control chrk.
97 Claims clerk
97 Driver, Deliveryman
97 Guard, Security
97 Labor, Unskilled
97 Maintenance
97 Operator, Machine
95 Arc welder, die settl.
95 Mechanic
95 Medical-Dental Asst.
95 Messenger
95 Production, Factory
93 Assembler
93 Food Service Worker
93 Nurse’s aide
93 Warehouseman
90 Custodian and janitor
90 Material handler
88 Packer
Ankhese said:
“@ Abagond
Mind if I cross-post to the Narrative?”
Go for it.
Jack,
I doubt if you could pass a Wonderlic test and I’m not doubting your intelligence, but if you had experience with them, I can’t see you publishing anything they have published.
Redman1000 said:
“abagond you have to explain how come African Immigrants and children of African immigrants(Barack Obama) do better than native born black Americans”
I will do a post on that – on why black immigrants to America generally do better than native blacks. They do better than even Asian immigrants in general.
I would expect the first generation of native-born Asian Americans to do better than their parents, simply because their command of English is better. And better than the second generation, who will completely lack any sort of immigrant view of America.
But despite that I doubt the first generation does better than native whites if you control for education. And that is due mostly to racism.
To Abagond:
“C. N. Le – where I got most of my numbers. ”
Those figures are now ten years out of date.
The per capita income for Asian men (per the US census..) is almost the same as non-Hispanic White men, for Asian women it is higher than for non-Hispanic White men:
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s0685.pdf
Oops…
” for Asian women it is higher than for non-Hispanic White men:
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s0685.pdf”
Should read:
for Asian WOMEN it is higher than for non-Hispanic White WOMEN:
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2010/tables/10s0685.pdf
To Abagond:
This article states that 2nd generation Vietnamese Americans attainment of college degrees surpass White Americans by 50%:
“In sharp contrast is the profile that emerges of foreign-parentage Latin American and Asian young adults. Many Asian young men and women enter at the top of the educational hierarchy from the get-go: in the 1.0 generation, an extraordinary 88 percent of the Indians had bachelor’s or advanced degrees (more than 50 points above the proportion of native whites), while only 2 percent failed to complete high school (their ratio of college graduates to dropouts is an astronomical 44). Also in the 1.0 generation, two-thirds of the Chinese and Koreans are college graduates, as are more than half of the Filipinos, and 27 percent of the Vietnamese (who entered mainly as refugees), while their proportions with less than a high school diploma are in the single digits (the sole exception are the 1.0 Vietnamese, at 18 percent). By the second generation, those high levels of educational attainment remain very high (all well above the level of native whites), or, as in the case of the Chinese and Vietnamese, increase significantly (to 79 percent and 51 percent, respectively), while their high school dropout rates remain in single digits, well below that of native whites.”
http://futureofchildren.org/futureofchildren/publications/journals/article/index.xml?journalid=72&articleid=520§ionid=3561
I know this thread is about diverse American Asian groups, but thought documentary was an interesting ‘snapshot’ of the rising middle-class and upper-middle class Chinese class in China.
http://www.pleasevoteforme.org/
By Ronault L.S. Catalani
You’ve heard it often enough, maybe you’ve said it yourself: America, the great social experiment. We’ve all discussed it, certainly with some consternation but also with a bit of pride. The United States is a deliberately engineered civilization, constructed on an enlightened century’s elegant aspirations.
As big as America’s founding fathers dreamed, China’s doing it bigger. And it’s not just China’s enormous scale that so startles; the PRC’s party fathers are power-steering 1.3 billion people, all as determined as any eager American immigrant to dump a conflicted past in heady trade for a future full of promises.
Please Vote for Me is about the bigness of all that. It’s about how steep, how suddenly steep China’s rush from communal ideals (Confucian or Chairman Mao’s all the same) to the pursuit of individualized gratification has got to be. What could be a better palette than a bunch of inquisitive third graders?
“What is democracy?” the film’s director Weijun Chen asks of a wiggly eight-year-old. No reply. “What is a vote?” The next little girl squirms instead of answering.
When recently asked by Why Democracy House, a progressive South African educational circle, what’s the point of asking little people such big questions, Mr. Chen was quoted as replying: “I think, in China or this world, some people may not care about democracy, may be not concerned about politics, but most people like kids. From the perspective of kids, we see human nature more truly.”
http://www.asianreporter.com/film/2007/42-07pleasevote.htm
Hope it is ok to post links….
I’m guessing the connection between measured IQ and culture runs both ways. IQ tests may have cultural biases and cultures may have intellectual biases. I doubt there’s much of a racial-genetic connection.
For instance, probably having a lot of books in your home and reading to your kids makes them smarter. Or, at least, smarter as measured by IQ tests.
Cognitive abilities can be trained. That’s no exotic concept at all and repeatedly proven. People who face permanent intellectual challenges train their brains to the point that solving certain problems becomes intuitive to them.
If anybody was to make a meaningful test series to ever come close to the “racial” or the predominantly genetic IQ hypothesis, they would have to take samples of individuals who were literally living under a rock all of their lives without any external stimulus whatsoever.
On a related note, it would be interesting to take one of those IQ tests after three days and nights of very little sleep, little or no food at all, several weeks of emotional stress, financial or health problems and at 40°C, 90% air humidity in a non air-conditioned room. And then take the same test again after a good night’s sleep, healthy nutrition, emotionally relaxed and at 20-25°C. The difference in the results would most likely be significant enough to question the validity of the test altogether.
Btw, eye-catching lists of medians are misleading. All it does, once again, is showing the manipulative potential of statistics. It seems to suggest that all janitors have an IQ of 90 and all attorneys of 120. This couldn’t be any further from the truth.
The following graph looks more plausible
http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/Occupations.aspx
(the link to the source paper is an interesting read as well)
It shows that there are janitors, truck drivers, engineers and professors with an IQ of 100. Certainly not in equal numbers but if we were to go strictly by IQ and profession/social status, there should be no legal professional or professor with an IQ of “only” 100 at all if “even” a janitor can have it. Probably not even engineers and scientists. It could also mean that all those plumbers and guards with a 100 IQ are overqualified and underpaid. Especially compared to a lot of sales and insurance reps who make a lot of money but are otherwise not quite the brightest lights.
Uncle Milton said:
“To Abagond:
“C. N. Le – where I got most of my numbers. ”
Those figures are now ten years out of date. “
The point of this post is that stereotypes are not driven by the numbers, but the other way round: people have stereotypes and believe in them so firmly that they will find the numbers (and personal anecdotes) to support them. Their is no search for truth going on. It is confirmation bias all the way.
The model minority stereotype certainly was in full swing by 2000. I remember my Asian friends bitterly complaining about it at least as far back as 1988.
and then there are those who uplift the stereotypes against them as being fact.
Abagond,
While confirmation biases certainly do exist in the realm of stereotypes, I also think that it’s demonstrable that many are based on an observed reality.
Most people tend to think that asians are studious because not only have they heard the rumors, they’ve observed it themselves. The degree attainment figures posted here lend credibility to that assumption.
For those populations of asian folks who haven’t achieved higher levels of success, (perhaps the Cambodians, Lao, Hmong) how are they hurt if people mistakenly assume they’re smarter and/or more diligent than the average white person? I don’t understand what your asian friends were bitterly complaining about.
I’d personally love it if everyone automatically assumed that I was smart and hard working based upon some type of stereotyped characteristic.
“I’d personally love it if everyone automatically assumed that I was smart and hard working based upon some type of stereotyped characteristic.”
They would if you were standing next to a black person.
I get the impression that most Asians are uncomfortable with the model minority stereotype. I could be wrong though.
Assuming I’m right, how is it that so many Asian Americans can report discomfort with being stereotyped, yet you say you would be fine with it. Why not take their word for it?
If I met someone who had been trapped on a desert island for a year and they told me it was an awful, terrible experience, I would take their word for it because I’ve never been in that situation.
What I would NOT do is say “no it would be awesome because you’d have privacy and be on the beach all day eating fresh seafood and stuff.”
I wouldn’t say that because…..I WOULDN’T KNOW WHAT THE F**K I WAS TALKING ABOUT.
My imagination would be running away with me, I would be putting my imagined experience up against someone who actually lived it, and that would make me an a**hole.
Great visualization, showing the spacing between the personal income levels.
Outside this discussion I never thought about Asians making more than Blacks or any other group. My concern was only could I negotiate what I wanted during my review or to seek the promotion that would improve my income.
“I get the impression that most Asians are uncomfortable with the model minority stereotype. I could be wrong though.”
There are some who will use it to their advantage depending on what field their in. Mind you, these are the people who don’t give a crap about race issues anything political. The majority of us fucking hate it. Especially when it’s used to dismiss whatever racism we’re facing. Or those like me in the performing arts, which still has a problem of favoring white faces and bodies.
And I have a bunch of typos in that post. *smacks self*
To Abagond:
The point of this post is that stereotypes are not driven by the numbers, but the other way round: people have stereotypes and believe in them so firmly that they will find the numbers (and personal anecdotes) to support them. Their is no search for truth going on. It is confirmation bias all the way.
Yes I am familiar… as I have seen stereotypes repeated here often about White (and Asian) people and some of the board members appear to perseverate with those stereotypes because it suits their world view. I understand and agree that White stereotypes POCs are frequently more damaging than the reverse (because of numbers and power dynamics..) but I find it amusing that some people here complain (rightly..) about treated as a number or an object but turn right around and toss out stereotypes about Whites.
The model minority stereotype certainly was in full swing by 2000. I remember my Asian friends bitterly complaining about it at least as far back as 1988.
Well it started back in 60s. At that time most Asians were American born and hence had adapted and assimilated to the American culture and it was being noted at that time that ethnic Japanese and Chinese were outperforming Whites academically. Given that so many Asians now are foreign born the economic status collectively becomes a moving target and as has been noted… there is a very wide variation in status for various Asian ethnicities (at the top economically are Asian Indians.. at the bottom Cambodians..)
I personally know some Vietnamese and Chinese Americans who are definitely struggling, so I know things are not all peachy keen in the Asian community. But as I noted before 50% more second generation Vietnamese Americans receive college degrees than Whites. In California where there are big support communities for Asians I suspect that figure is higher. I work for a fortune 500 IT company that is well known and a desirable place for students to intern. In the past 5 years less than 15% of the interns were White, the large majority were Asian. Whites are moving away from technical fields because of the perceived Asian competition both in the US and abroad. (China and India..)
To Ramona:
The majority of us fucking hate it.
I get the impression that the stereotypes about sexuality are more problematic for Asians that the model minority stereotype… but then I am not Asian.. so I am just guessing.
As of 2005 Asian Americans have higher median family income and higher median personal income. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Race_Income.png
I won’t waste trying to rebut the other “stats” because you provide no link to where you got them from; thus, I have no way to check their veracity.
Most people tend to think that asians are studious because not only have they heard the rumors, they’ve observed it themselves.
I always thought it was because most I have seen had glasses. It is a well known fact that people with eyeglasses love to read and are smart:
http://www.dccomics.com/mad/
A brilliant breakdown of nonsensical humour! Hilarious to boot, so you get a good laugh whilst reading the ground-breaking studies! I must be one of the most studious people around since I have the worst glasses prescription! Hey maybe I am a genius!
I don’t understand what your asian friends were bitterly complaining about.
They bitterly complain because of the stereotypes people like you and your ilk impose on them. It may be a hard thing to live up to! Hence the bitterness. Maybe some want to be stereotyped as shiftless and lazy now and then but you won’t let them!
I’d personally love it if everyone automatically assumed that I was smart and hard working based upon some type of stereotyped characteristic.
Your full of flatulence sir. Take some Maalox.
Cont’d; I particularly love and have gleaned hours of knowledge from their column, ‘Ask Mad!’:
Got a stupid question for the MAD editors? Well, you might get a snappy answer, but go ahead and ask anyway. Just make sure you’ve checked our FAQ first, Einstein!
http://www.dccomics.com/mad/?action=ask_mad
Thoroughly thought provoking!
Jamila says:
“I won’t waste trying to rebut the other “stats” because you provide no link to where you got them from; thus, I have no way to check their veracity.”
They are from the 2000 US census, as stated in the post. The website I got them from is listed under the See Also section.
Note that the more successful Asian groups (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans) are the ones that most strongly internalized Confucianism.
The silver bullet is NOT how well-educated Asian Americans are. After all, even in 1940s Japanese Americans were better educated than whites, but few whites would hire them – and, in fact, took their farms and shops and houses and sent them to prison camps! So education alone is hardly a good measure of how unracist whites are towards Asian Americans.
The better rough measure is personal income when controlled for education. It would be best to do it at the state level since many Asian Americans live in places with a high cost of living, like California.
FG:
“Note that the more successful Asian groups (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans) are the ones that most strongly internalized Confucianism.”
That is just so wrong:
1. It does not account for Indians and Filipinos.
2. Koreans are nowhere near as successful as people suppose. See the post.
3. There is a far simpler reason for who is at top: command of English. Knowledge of English is common in India and the Philippines, particularly among the middle-class that has the money and education to come to America. As for the Japanese, most have been in America longer than Italians,while the rest are in America on business.
If you want to see what I think of the Asian Values Fallacy, go here:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/11/26/too-asian/
I’m not necessarily referring to Asian American populations because you get into complex issues involving migration selectivity. For example, any Korean immigrants to the US have been returning to Korea in recent years. How has that affected the numbers? But just consider the performance of the various Asian economies. Even in Indochina, ethnic Chinese dominate economic life, a source of much bitterness for the indigenous populations.
On the other hand, India is as poor as many parts of Africa. The country does have a talented elite but the human capital of the population is in many respects underdeveloped.
@Abagond
Yeah, please do a post about African immigrants. Most people don’t know that most African immigrants are highly successful! And it is not just the first generation of African immigrants but the second generation also. They are more successful than Asian immigrants. I think I mentioned ealier, about 7 months ago, that my grandmother did a research paper on which students were the most successful at her university. My grandmother, despite being in her mid-40′s, decided to go back to school to get her degree. Now understand that one of her professor said during one of his lectures that Africans had the worst Iq scores and therefore could be the least intelligent of all the ethnic groups. Well, she decided to do her own research. She found out that the ethnic group that did the best at her university ( the highest overral g.p.a) were not the Asians, as many would expect, but were in fact African students who were immigrants. I was so proud of her. I am sure she shut her professor up real quick!
Ramona: “The majority of us fucking hate it.”
I have no stats about how many do and do not appreciate such stereotypes, and can only accurately comment about what I’ve seen firsthand.
My wife is a studious and hardworking emigre from a 3rd world asian country, most of her friends are studious and hardworking asian emigres, as are many people she works with (from the south, east, and southeast).
When I asked her how she feels about the stereotype of asian folks being considered educated and hard working, she said, “why wouldn’t they think that, and why would I mind if they did??”
To each his or her own, I guess.
I remember taking an IQ test. Months later, a white dude reviewing my application for a scholarship was visibly “shocked” and said my good scores were “surprising.”
*sigh* IQ is just another rationalization/justification/excuse for white America to discriminate against POC and, in some cases, women.
@Ankhesen Mie
He was surprised huh? Just because you are a person of color? People amaze me with their presumptuous attitudes. Well, I agree. People use that test just to support their ideas of white supremacy! It doesn’t mean anything. Plus alot that is on those tests are culture related.
Abagond, thanks for all the research and thought you put into this and other posts. I really enjoy and learn from your blog.
There are two reasons people do not like it, which is split depending on which group the Asian person fits into and the kind of ideas people who believe the stereotypes get from that…
1) Asians who live up to the stereotype.
Their hard work, knowledge and intelligence is not given the recognition it deserves because that’s expected of them. That is what the stereotype paints as ‘normal’ for Asians, so why praise them for becoming brain surgeons and rocket scientists? They are all hard working geniuses so getting those jobs is a piece of cake to an Asian, right? Asians in general are held up to a higher standard. So the Asian job applicant with a good CV becomes expected and unimpressive, whereas someone of another ethnicity with the same CV is amazing and must be a genius who put in so much effort. It’s the same for those who have achieved great things. Oh, an Asian discovered something that will change the world of science? Yawn. Someone who’s not Asian discovered a similar thing? Wow! That’s incredible!
2) Asians who do not live up to the stereotype.
This relates back to Asians being held up to a higher standard. Due to this, any Asian who does well, but does not get the best job or get straight A’s is seen as a complete idiot. What is wrong with that person? They are Asian, so they should be the best of the best, right? They must be retarded compared to other Asians. They must be complete and utter failures. How sad and pathetic. So, from that, you can imagine how an Asian is seen when they do not do well by anybody’s standards.
Asians do not have to fit into either group. It is possible to be a mixture of both or to have experienced both in a lifetime.
Note: This is mostly from my own experience and the experience of people I have known, so the reasons for it being bothersome may not extrapolate to everyone.
Ella:
Those are the main reasons I have heard too.
@Ella:
Very well said! I know from my own experience, non-Asians are surprised I’m not in any scientific or math related field. I was also expected to have a natural affinity for math. Are you kidding me? I was horrible at math in school. I had people looking over my shoulder copying my answers thinking the answers were correct, but ha! I proved them wrong. lol!
@ Ella
Nicely stated.
@ Leigh
LMAO! I can imagine the looks on their faces when they got their work back!
LOL Leigh!
I don’t think I ever had that stereotype of Asians just being inherently smarter. I guess because when I lived in Hawaii I helped out this korean guy with math in class. I suck at math btw. But it was something I understood at the time. But, I think I did (probably still do) think Asians may have more societal pressure to do well. At least in Asian countries such as Japan and Korea where they have cram schools. And I think the suicide rate is pretty high in Japan with high school students.
However, if you think about the poorer countries in the world where the children may go to school hungry I would think they have more of a drive because what they have is not just given to them.
If you look at how the US does math compared to other countries, we are behind. I was having a conversation with one of my girl friends who was saying she has math disability. I think I may have this same problem, along with my boyfriend. But in say Korea they are way ahead in math than we are. So perhaps it isn’t IQ or who is smarter but who has a better teaching system. everyone learns differently. Perhaps their schools are better suited for the mind, at least for math? So, when, for example a Korean person comes here in high school and does great in math it isn’t because he/she is really smart, but because they have already been taught this skill much better.
If they are first generation born here, maybe the parents have the knowledge to teach them what they learned before. *Maybe? I am only speculating*
leigh204, if you don’t mind me asking, how bothered are you that some people may set expectations about your mathematical aptitude that you’re not able to live up to?
And then of course there’s this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat
it’s amazing how much of a role just being aware of a stereotype can effect performance. If there is any better argument against HBD i’m not aware of it. Racism is like a feedback loop that reinforces itself. Makes me nauseous.
Wow. You really nailed it with this one, Abagond.
Abagond,
Race is not about black and white, It’s about black and non-black. Just because someone is non-white, don’t assume that they like black people. Everybody is competing against each other for money, power, and resources, Never Forget That!
@ Ankhesen:
Indeed. You should’ve seen them, girl! lol! Wide-eyed and open mouthed! Actually, I wasn’t that bad with math. I was okay. My marks were still higher than their marks, though. However, I was sick and tired of people copying my answers so when I thought they weren’t looking, I would change my answers. Those people quickly learned their lesson.
@ Mei Ly:
I think you’re correct. When some of my immigrant, younger cousins were in elementary school, they told me how easy it was for them to do math. I learned they were already doing basic algebra since the 2nd grade.
I’m looking forward to your post about African and Caribbean immigrants vs black Americans. I read that Africans have the highest education attainment, but still make less than white and Asian Americans. Why is that?
I’ve also read that Caribbean and Africans have a higher than average median income than White/Black Americans. Don’t know if that is true, but Caribbean and Africans have sometimes been called “model Blacks”.
http://people.umass.edu/smodel/IMR_25.pdf
http://faroutliers.wordpress.com/2007/03/19/black-immigrant-model-minorities/
@Randy,
You’re misrepresenting the “model minority” myth, big time. Or maybe just misunderstanding it. I’ll (try to) be charitable and assume the latter. Despite the fact that whatever it is, it’s suspiciously (and unsurprisingly) convenient.
The “modelness” isn’t just about financial or educational success, or upward mobility. That’s only part of it. In fact, I’d say that at least since the 80s, that’s become the smaller-by-far part of the myth. That part is about flattering (White) American Society and its Level Playing Field. Please note, that’s the only part of the myth that gets addressed when WP are involved in the conversation.
The other, now much-bigger, part— and it is crucial, because it’s the part that really tends to impact the people its applied to, so please fucking listen— is that the supposed success of a given “model minority” group makes that group “safer” for white people.
Stop.
Reread that last sentence.
You may never have heard that just said like that, but I bet if you think about it for a sec, you’ll realize you knew that already. Now, it’d take a very, very long time to explain, and even longer to detail its effects in practice (not to mention that white psychology is dizzying to navigate), but I’m going to try to hit the high points. This is a mitzvah I’m doing, so please do me the favor of trying to resist the reflexively white urge to be obtuse about this little bit of everyday racism— you almost certainly know exactly what I mean by “safer.”
FTR: In a nutshell, safe from having to think about racism. (Or, some might say, from “white guilt.”)
Also, nb: the whole concept of a model minority is relative. “Unsafe” translates to “unmodel,” so zero guesses who’s supposed to be learning from the WP-approved Model; it’s US-born BP. To put a finer point on that: the descendants of Southern slaves.
An easy example of how this works in practice: any foreign-born (or alternately, sufficiently identifiable as bougie) BP can tell you about the look of unvarnished relief on the faces of newly-met WP when they first open their mouths and reveal that they’re not “one of those.” WP on the othe rhand, can tell you nothing about this; they have no idea they’re doing it, and so they never take the time to think about it. The idea (and again, your attention please) is that non-US BP (who are more “model” than US BP) are more like WP— meaning, less “angry” than (heavily-stereotyped) US BP, less likely to “complain” about “harmless” stuff/see race in everything/play the race card,* et cetera. Safer.
As in: “Phew! For a second there, I thought I was going to have to watch what I say (think/vote//teach my kids/etc)!”
So. Can you now see how your question to your wife (who’s not unbiased— she’s your wife— and at any rate, is hardly able to speak for all Asian-Americans/model minorites) was totally loaded? In your favor? Consider how substantially “Model Minority Xers obviously work hard and really value education; look how well they’re doing!” differs from “See! According to this, Model Minority X is no worse off than WP! [ie: don't face racial obstacles in the US/don't have anything to complain about, and are therefore psychologically okay to be around]!”
____
*All of this boils down to, “less likely to challenge my white-privileged fantasy vision of the US.” The hope is that they’ll be less racism-aware— as unaware as WP. Which, of course, is yet another purely white fantasy. We can’t help but be aware, duh. And we get angry, believe me.
PS: One of the implications you might ponder…
The fact that non-US BP and other non-BP POC are thought to be “safer” (less “touchy” about racism) implies that US WP aren’t terribly aware that white racism has burned bridges all over the freakin globe.
I’m not from the US— but frankly, that’s not necessary. Please believe that whiteness and the racism done in support of it have made a major impact on my home country/culture! I’m talking entire-native-population-exterminated type impact. Centuries-of-colonialism type impact. MFing IMF-type impact. Hell, in my case, I’m even talking about dread plantation slavery! (Turns out I am “one of those!” There are a lot more of “those” than WP think!)
So… yeah. Not all that safe, actually.
karinova,
Your comment appears to indicate that white people use stereotypes to seek “safety”, which you define as avoidance of collective guilt. I can’t speak for all white folks, but I can say that I personally have zero collective white guilt.
Personally, I find such an idea rather preposterous. The vast majority of people in the world accept no responsibility for the actions of others, especially unrelated people hundreds of years and thousands of miles away, and I’m no different in that regard. None of my relatives were in this country 100 years ago.
So if not to assuage guilt, then why would I or others even mention the success of asians? Primarily, it’s in my best interests to see all people succeed, from the standpoints of being a compassionate human being and as a fellow participant in our society and economy.
I believe that the victimization / racism paradigm as an ultimate barrier to success is completely self-defeating. Seeing non-white immigrants (be they from asia, africa, or wherever) succeed in socioeconomically deprived areas is an unimpeachable counterexample against the claim that racism prevents success.
As I mentioned before, I can predict the general likelihood that a child will do well academically if given only information about their curfew, time spent studying, and time with parents/guardians discussing school.
My claim isn’t that racism doesn’t exist, but rather that it can and is being overcome by people in great numbers. Of course it’s regrettable if minority schoolchildren are teased, but I’m personally more concerned with people who lack food, shelter, and security. If my own kids are the subject of ethnic adversity, it’ll be raindrops in the ocean compared to what most children in my wife’s country face.
“The idea (and again, your attention please) is that non-US BP (who are more “model” than US BP) are more like WP— meaning, less “angry” than (heavily-stereotyped) US BP, less likely to “complain” about “harmless” stuff/see race in everything/play the race card,* et cetera. Safer.”
You seem to have a well-developed sense of the moral failings of white folks, so perhaps you’ll be kind enough to suggest how you would have us improve.
[...] writes: “As it turns out, “Asian Americans have a higher median family income” is very carefully [...]
@ Randy
“You seem to have a well-developed sense of the moral failings of white folks, so perhaps you’ll be kind enough to suggest how you would have us improve.”
She just did blinder boy.
That’s like asking someone who just told you your shoe was untied to tie it for you.
Um, okay?
1) “…‘safety,’ which you define as avoidance of collective guilt.”
Do I? Let’s see: “…safe from having to think about racism. (Or, some might say, from ‘white guilt.’)”
Mmm, yeah, no.
2) Your paragraphs 2 through 4 are exactly what I’m talking about. Thanks for recapping a POV I already fully understood. Treading water is fun!
3) “My claim isn’t that racism doesn’t exist, but rather that it can and is being overcome by people in great numbers.” Great, awesome. Except, I’m talking about the MM myth. Which (I submit(ted)) is predicated on the notion that racial discrimination need not be “overcome” in the first place— that it’s not real/serious/an obstacle.
4) You know what, no.
*sigh*
I did my part. Maybe someone else can help you out, but I’m done. So much for favors.
[Thanks for getting my back on that, Jas0nburns. I mean, damn. Reading: it's fundamental.]
To Karinova:
One of the implications you might ponder…
The fact that non-US BP and other non-BP POC are thought to be “safer” (less “touchy” about racism) implies that US WP aren’t terribly aware that white racism has burned bridges all over the freakin globe.
Whatever… I have generally been treated very well by people in some of the places where White people (a lot of POC can tell the difference between different types of White people and don’t lump them all together .) have done some pretty bad shit. Vietnam, Burma, the Philippines for example… sure their have been people who seem to have been angry at me just because of the color of my skin….. however, the vast majority seem to be able to recognize someone who is treating them with respect and reciprocate.
Uncle Milton a lot of POC can tell the difference between different types of White people and don’t lump them all together
YES we can
and I don’t lump them all together. The French(Paris) have a special place in my heart.
To Karinova:
Is this you? :
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social/karinova?action=comments
karinova,
I still don’t see where your point #1 and mine differ, but maybe I’m just obtuse.
Except, I’m talking about the MM myth. Which (I submit(ted)) is predicated on the notion that racial discrimination need not be “overcome” in the first place— that it’s not real/serious/an obstacle.
Perhaps you could be kind enough to point me towards evidence of this real / serious / obstacle producing discrimination.
@Abagond,
Sorry about this; I hope this doesn’t count as a hijack. I think it’s on-topic (or at least related), and Milton addressed me directly, so I want to answer. The rest of the thread seems to have moved on anyway.
Plus? Nobody ever, EVER talks about this. Not the gradations of Modelness, and DEFINITELY not the difference between US-born and foreign-born BP (supposed difference and difference in treatment/experience).
Fine. Ugh.
on “WP perceive Model Minorities as ‘safer.’”
I’m gonna borrow Abagond’s bullet-pointed style a bit.
Let’s call the theory “As Safe As White.” Here’s how I got there:
• Americans tend to assume all black people are (native-born) Americans, barring certain indicators. Basically, any BP wearing Western clothing is American. This goes beyond assuming that anyone here is “from” here. Example: it’s not uncommon for USians traveling overseas to tsk-tsk-ingly inform the locals that BP are correctly referred to as “African-American.” (Pro Tip: They hate that. All of them.)
• Americans, particularly white ones, think all US BP, and only US BP, are descended from slavery. (Put another way, there are two kinds of BP: “black people” (former slaves) and “Africans”.)
• White Americans think BP are irrationally sensitive about racism— because they have yet to “get over” slavery and Jim Crow (ie: Ancient History). The angriest ones are black males in urban areas who listen to rap.
• For most white Americans, the most salient thing upon meeting a POC is race (Not “their race,” just “race”— because most WP don’t think they have one.) Unfortunately…
• …thinking about race is agony for white Americans. Thinking about race and BP— who may as well be a visual synonym for slavery, Jim Crow, etc.; see above— is especially intolerable.
• White Americans often visibly relax when it comes out that a given BP is not US-born…
• … at which point, it’s just a matter of time before you’re told that you’re safer, in their opinion, than American BP. Sometimes they’ll just say so outright (eg: “you’re not like other BP” as a compliment), but IME, it usually comes in the form of… wait for it… bashing other POC! Preferably BP, natch.
Pause.
Ah, there’s nothing quite like a WP assuming conspiratorial tones and inviting you to agree that Africa is ::rolls-eyes:: just hopeless, or that “political correctness” is an outrage. Or eagerly confessing what they really think about “those ghetto-type blacks,” or asking rhetorically, “when are BP just gonna… get over it?!” (And to that last, they sometimes add, “like your people have.” Which: @*!&%!!) No… wait. Seeking my approval for dropping the n-bomb definitely beats all.
I can only conclude that they feel I’m as safe as white.
Because I understand that these are things WP generally only feel it’s safe to say/do in the company of other WP (whose agreement/support is assumed). I think they think they can “open up” without risking my opinion of them.
But here’s the thing, they can’t. I am, in fact, racism-sensitive.
And not just because I’ve been here for 30 years! (Though that alone is enough: SEE. ABOVE.)
Oh, and, yes.
That is (was) me on HuffPo. I don’t go there much anymore; I got fed up with all the porny click-bait and comment-box gewgaws.
Also, the constant fail.
Whoops! karinova=knova. We are one and the same.
(How did that happen?!)
“at which point, it’s just a matter of time before you’re told that you’re safer, in their opinion, than American BP. Sometimes they’ll just say so outright (eg: “you’re not like other BP” as a compliment), but IME, it usually comes in the form of… wait for it… bashing other POC! Preferably BP, natch.”
knova,
You hit the nail right on it’s head, LOL, it’s ridiculous the things white people will say to a non-US black person, as if we black immigrants haven’t felt the sting of their backstabbing ways…
what always amused me was how fast white Americans befriended black Americans when they realized that everyone else in the room are foreigners and/or are not speaking English…
One reason I believe immigrant children perform better than native born children is the feeling of indebtedness that children may feel towards their parents. Their parents leave their home country and pay good money to do so. They come to America with the hope that their children will have more opportunities and better lives than they would have in the home country. These parents work hard in countries that are foreign to them in order to make a good life for their kids, send them to good schools, etc.
There is serious pressure put unto these kids to succeed. Most of my friends who came from immigrant families were from Nigeria and other various African countries. They told me about how their parents not only had to work hard in their homelands to save up money to move to America, but also had to put in extra hours at the American jobs just to provide for their children. Knowing that their parents gave up their familiar, lifelong environments and worked themselves to the bone for the sake of their children made my friends feel pressure to make their parents sacrifices worth it. This means getting a degree in a surefire success field such as engineering, medicine, or science.
Native born kids may not have that same kind of indebtedness to their families even if their families sacrificed much. It may not be as evident and concrete. Most parents don’t hold their sacrifices over their kids heads in order to get them to succeed. But children of immigrant families may be able to perceive their parents sacrifices more acutely and take it upon themselves to prove to their parents that they are “worth the work” and something to be proud of. One friend told me how shitty she would feel if she made nothing of herself when her parents had gone through the struggle of immigrating and building a new life for her and her siblings. Its part of what drove her to succeed. That and the fact that her parents would frown upon her if she didn’t go into a medical field and make a good living. All but two of my immigrant friends (from African countries) went into medicine and science. The others went into law.
to jack who posted iqs of certain professions. First a median is is kind of useless on its own. What is the mean? How large is the standard deviation (avg departure from mean )? Am i to assume that so called intelligence for a certain position is on a gaussian distribution? How do i know this. Depending on how small the standard deviation is would at best give you a moderate correlation between iq and profession absolutely not direct causation. A small std would do just that. A large std would pretty much render such “intelligence testing” baseless. There are no causal factors between the european “intelligence quotient” and your profession. Just ask the so called smartest man in the world a white man who works in a bar. From a nonwhite (black) male.
asians do have the highest personal income as well as household income.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence
It’s time to admit that asian americans have higher IQ, household income, and personal income than white americans.
It’s time to admit that asian americans have higher IQ, household income, and personal income than white americans.
It is time to admit you have a drinking problem!