If you are a white person arguing about racism with a black person here is how to derail the argument:
The main thing is to turn the tables by getting your opponent angry. Once he is then you can say that it is pointless to continue. You “win” and never had to address the substance of his argument!
It is easy to get blacks upset about race because they take the whole race thing way too personally – because, unlike you, it affects them, well, personally! And, if you act in a racist manner in a debate about racism, all the while saying that racism is all in their heads, that will drive them nuts!
The trick is to never take what they say seriously. Instead belittle it. So when they talk about their experience of racism, tell them they see racism everywhere, that they are imagining it. After all, a friend of yours is black (make it up if you have to) and he does not agree. So how can they speak for all black people!? Demand facts and figures, studies and surveys that back up what they say. You need evidence! You need proof!
Tell them how you, as a white person, have had the same experiences too: You were stopped by the police too (when you ran a red light). People touch your daughter’s hair too (she is three). It will make them look like complainers. That you missed the point of their examples will get them upset – just what you want!
If their English is bad, jump on that. If their English is too good then they probably have a good education, so what are they complaining about?
That is the general idea. It is taken from a website, Derailing for Dummies, which explains how racists, sexists, homophobes and others favoured by society – the privileged – derail or throw off the arguments made by the marginalized – like blacks, women and gays. Although it is written tongue-in-cheek, it is dead serious: the author has seen it too many times.
The website tells you how to use each of these derailing arguments:
- If You Won’t Educate Me How Can I Learn
- If You Cared About These Matters You’d Be Willing To Educate Me
- You’re Being Hostile.
- But That Happens To Me Too!
- You’re Being Overemotional
- You’re Taking Things Too Personally
- You’re Not Being Intellectual Enough/You’re Being Overly Intellectual
- You’re Arguing With Opinions Not Fact
- Your Experience Is Not Representative Of Everyone
- Unless You Can Prove Your Experience Is Widespread I Won’t Believe It
- I Don’t Think You’re As Marginalized As You Claim
- Well I Know Another Person From Your Group Who Disagrees!
- A In B Situation Is Not Equivalent To X In Y Situation
- Who Wins Gold in the Oppression Olympics?
- You Have A False Consciousness
- You’re Not Being A Team Player
- You’ve Lost Your Temper So I Don’t Have To Listen To You Anymore
- You Are Damaging Your Cause By Being Angry
- Surprise! I Was Playing “Devil’s Advocate” All Along!
See also:
- Derailing for Dummies – the website
- How to tell if a commenter is white
I typically don’t have run-in’s where I would need to derail anyone through conversation. But this does sound like an interesting piece of material to read.
People get way too crazy about the way they choose to live their lives. I don’t understand why if it’s your life and your way of thinking why go back and forth with someone who disagree. They have two options: Accept you or Not accept you (black, white, gay, old , etc).
I’m very opionionated myself but I also value the opinions of others..of course I do I’m a blogger!
Have a good Hump Day Abagond
Go.
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How to never get ahead in life:
Focus your entire identity on how “marginalized” you are, blame all your problems on other people, and insulate yourself from the real world by reading books and listening to people who reinforce your feelings of victimization.
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Interesting…I’ve seen this “derailing” happen so many times.
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I’ve seen & heard many…well all of these derailing tactics. Especially during discussions on race & gender.
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Derailing or sidestepping as you referred to it in another thread is a part of debate.. something you have used yourself (and probably myself) have used in some threads. (although to your credit you have backed off generally when someone focused the discussion…)
Like it or not if one wants to discuss or prove white privilege (and the extent of that privilege..) then I think one should be prepared to debate it.
As I have alluded to in other threads I think a good portion of what is described as white privilege is a reworking of what used to be called class privilege among lefties. In the “How to spot a white poster” thread you were dismissive of a point I was trying to make about class privilege and said I was sidestepping zeroing in on one of many elements I was using to describe class. (basically the weakest)
I am willing to listen to you and try to avoid logical pitfalls and discuss this if you are willing (or anyone else..) wants to discuss this. If you go through my posts you’ll see I haven’t brought up most of your list.
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@racerealist, I think you’ve hit on a few of the Derailing for Dummies points. Good for you:
–You Have A False Consciousness:
…It’s them who are making everything about race and their experience of racism in their daily lives is simply imagined. If only they could let it go, the whole world would live in post-racial harmony!
–I Don’t Think You’re As Marginilized As You Claim:…you must be sure you nonetheless indicate they still are Less Than You, so be as disdainful and contemptuous as possible.
Bingo!
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You got it!
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To Uncle Milton, etc:
I am interested in debating these issues seriously. I would rather have a deeper understanding of them than to “win” or score points or make cheap shots.
If I do not address a point you make, it is probably not that I am being dismissive. I read through the comments and then make points where I can add value.
Three-fourths of the time other people make the points I would have made and often make them better. La Reyna, mynameismyname, Kat and some others nearly always say what I would have said. I do not always agree with them, of course, but nine times out of ten I do.
Also, when someone makes several points, in most cases I will pick one point and comment on that to see where it goes from there.
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To Abagond:
I am interested in debating these issues seriously. I would rather have a deeper understanding of them than to “win” or score points or make cheap shots.
Basically those are my thoughts on the issue.
If I do not address a point you make, it is probably not that I am being dismissive.
Sorry, that sounds like I was sniping, it’s a broad topic and perhaps I misunderstood your previous response, you misunderstood my original post, or perhaps a little of both.
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I’ve been fighting a wicked cold so I am bit cloudy. I’ll try to post some thoughts in the next few days.
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Get well.
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Abagond,
You use these derailing techniques too, just not when it has to do with race. You’ve told me and others with the same views that we’re being overemotional or sensitive or taking things to personally (when you defend your harsh words toward a certain type of women and say that its not personal that you are attacking the media).
And that we have a false consciousness.
You downplay our experiences and take others more seriously. You’ve expessed that you’re “not going to cry for us” because our experience in society is far better. As if we are percieving the negativity.
I know this is an entirely different subject, but when I read some of the techniques I thought this sounds familiar.
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Wow. Good comment.
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wow anon. good point!
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Wow, I didn’t expect that, abagond but thanks for being fair.
Lil’vina, thanks! I knew you would understand.
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Basically, these derailing techniques leads to large black people to disengage from public discussions on race. At the workplace, in school, the hidden message to blacks, women, other minorities, poor white trash is:
don’t interfere.
And some of the time they’re right not to, since it a waste of time and certainly makes you feel bad and very depressed.
abagond, your ‘derailing for dummies’ helps to get above that, so thanks for that. It also helps to spot the structures, and above all the fallacies which are used.
Wiki that.
My advise is to black people:
Don’t get wound up (yes, easier said than done), realize they ARE taking you for a ride, EVEN if they really mean what they say, in that they are racists.
Nice tricks black people can do to white people:
Adopt a menacing body language, while saying you don’t mean it. Stand really close, while saying: “I don’t wanna threaten you” while touching your throat and stare at them hard.
The idea is to reinforce their perception of the Angry Black Man, while verbally stating the opposite. I admit, this takes some practice, and sadly, it can backfire when they get violent. (Which ultimately, white people always do. Just notice the threatening remarks on this very post, insinuations of lynching, shooting etc.)
So … DON’T use this when you’re outnumbered … 😉
Other possible remarks:
– Make references to Israel in the sense of: you wouldn’t say this if I was Jewish/Israel etc.
– Make references to repubs. 90% of the time racists are repubs so say something like: “you believe its all in my head, but you also believed bush with Mission Accomplished”. If they say they’re democrats, simply say that they’re lying.
In general, try not to get wound up, and try to wind them up in return … good luck 😉
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TheBlackViewFromAmsterdam:
Lay off the drugs. Your “trick” is the most counterproductive tactic I’ve ever heard.
There is a difference between keeping a discussion on point and just trying to get the other person to shut up. You can’t have an honest discussion on race issues unless both sides are willing to listen to the painful truths.
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– Make references to Israel in the sense of: you wouldn’t say this if I was Jewish/Israel etc.
I, for one, welcome this remark. Liberal Jews are even more overdue for a reality check than liberal whites in general.
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Temple well put!
I’ve seen plenty of people (Whites in particular) play the derailing game, and the ‘I feel threatened’ game and I’m not impressed…it is so tired and old…*yawn, borrring*
As I said in a previous post, I think that some Whites are threatened when they encounter intelligent Blacks… they are socialized to believe that “Blacks are ignorant and inferior” so when they are in confrontational spaces – at work or school, or even a BLOG LIKE THIS they find themselves ‘up against’ intelligent, proud, beautiful and sharp Blacks
…and it quickly becomes overwhelming and threatening… (enter derailment here) —
***I’m sure you’ll no doubt see this in a follow up comment, from the good ole’ boys… LOL***
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Babybrown,
Yes, I have observed people responding in a combative, defensive or dismissive way to someone who makes a thoughtful, intelligent statement of their my point of view. Sometimes I’m unsure if it’s due to the person’s race/ethnicity, gender or a combination hierarchal IDs.
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“You can’t have an honest discussion on race issues unless both sides are willing to listen to the painful truths.”
What a load of crap. The “painful truth” is that the present bad racist situation is much the fault of the majority than any minority.
And no, I’m not against taking responsibility.
But it’s ludicrous to think that we are somehow equal in opportunities. As groups, blacks and whites in the USA are hugely different. And sometimes as an individual too. See Skip Gates. Would this have happened to a white college professor? HIGHLY UNLIKELY.
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and of course racerealist (his nick alone is a use of these techniques ….)
uses techniques #4:
“But That Happens To Me Too!”
sigh.
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Sometimes white commenters will prove a post true without any sense of irony. It is priceless. You cannot make this stuff up.
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I swear i just dealt with this on a news paper forum about race and had a white girl tell me, Her mother was single mom who raised two kids and work her butt off and she was “one of two white folk who works with an entire platoon of black and hispanic men and women.”I guess she was saying we’re equal and had the authority to say anti-black things. She also said “Todays black society wouldn’t have the first clue as to what slavery was like, BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT THERE so why keep bringing it up?? Get over it, already! It was done 200 years ago by idiot people who we don’t even know.” I also had her say about me that ” For someone working on your second college degree, you sure lack in the common sense department” along with other things belittling my intelliegence. I guess this is what you talking about.
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Racism is a cancer that will infect all people that want to swim in its waters.If you want to live your life and build your beliefs on hatred you are an idiot. If you want to blame others and believe your life is less because you are a different color you are an idiot. What ever happened to personal responsibility. If you do not like the person in front of you move on, the world really is a big place. Rules do not change the system people do. Live right and free.
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@BB:
Huh?
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Herneith….
#25 is an example of derailing.
See it’s like this. Instead of admitting their is a problem, they try to shift the blame and say it’s your thinking!!!
You think people hate you so walk around like that! Why can’t you just ignore racism and move on with your life.
Forgetting that most institutions are racist and we have to engage these institutions who put in policy based on racism to make engagement difficult, yet say they want to challenge racism.
Well how can you challenge it when you won’t admit it, but you expect black people to walk around being happy to live under racist oppression.
What BB is indirectly saying is… be happy with being treated aas a second class citizen, be happy, just accept it and move on.
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Agreed.
Note on BB’s comment: The very same comment appeared less than an hour later on Stuff White People Do:
http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2009/09/leave-snarky-comments-on-anti-racism.html?showComment=1254542169214#c4822411634034124225
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That was me surfing
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Herneith
I never denied racism.I called it cancer! It is real and painful. The fact is that alot of the statements I have read (Yours and mine)can be turned into the derailing arguement. What I am directly saying is—Dont drink the water–Life is to short.
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@BB:
What are you talking about?
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That was a reply to your comment. ????
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You call it derailment…I call it the truth!!
It’s that MANY BLACKS DO NOT WANT TO LISTEN TO REASON.
I of course will listen to POC when they claim of a racist episode by an INDIVIDUAL but the first moment they sway into “White people________”, It’s derail city!!
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You know what amuses me about people like you, GWM? You’re even more dogmatic than the folks you criticize. At least their unreason is predicated on honest emotional reactions to the kind of crap blacks have had to put up with from whites for over 500 years. It’s at least understandable why they might be a tad bit pissed at things.
What’s your problem with reality, exactly?
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Since when does asking for facts constitute derailing? It sounds like this kind of argument is a convenient shield. (I don’t have to give evidence! They’re just derailing by asking me for it!)
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Hello, I just wanted to comment on here because I followed the link someone gave me.
I know nothing of debates whatsoever so although this is a very old post, it is forever educational and applicable in any kind of debate.
I am ashamed to say that I have used most if not all if the above ‘techniques’ in an argument.
It really shows my ignorance about certain issues.
Although I didn’t have any malicious intend by doing all of these, I suppose I was really hurting my own and others’ positions in a debate.
I just wanted to comment on here and express my gratitude that you have posted this.
It really opened my eyes.
Thank you 🙂
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Glad to be of service!
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@ Dubious:
Asking for facts CAN be a derailment. It depends on how it is being used in the argument.
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What about “that can’t be true, there is a black president now.”
(That’s for the White Americans)
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Is the derail for dummies page seriously or satire?
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This series is great. I have found it quite useful in trying to understand some of the tactics white racists us in discussion. However, I would like to suggest that white racism is not just a black and white issue. Some of the most intense conversations have been with white people on European colonialism, genocide and Native American Indian/Indigenous people’s issues in general.
I have had to translate a little bit. For example, not only do they all have a best friend who is black, they also have Cherokee ancestors and know more about Indian history and politics than I do. LOL
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This is just what I needed to comprehend how white people blow off my arguments. I shall be directing them to the website every time they make an overused comment in such to discredit the issue. Thank you.
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e cigs How to derail an argument about racism | Abagond
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Interesting blog, I was just directed to it, and plan to start reading daily. It is possible to get an eMail whenever you post a new entry? I was raised to believe that all people are equal, but I can see that there is far more to this problem than that. Just how much… not sure, but I clearly have a lot to learn. Never too late to teach an old dog new things.
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