Archive for the ‘white men’ Category

Pretty-in-Pink-movie-03I never thought I would be writing a part three so soon, but when a post gets more than 300 comments, then it is time.

To review:

  • In part one I said that it boiled down to racism on the part of white men: they do not want black children.
  • In part two I said it is not quite that simple: way before marriage it is women who apply race to dating decisions, not men. Men are dogs and will go for any halfway good-looking woman they think they have a chance with. A Columbia University study on speed dating supports this view.

Now for part three: A big thing that keeps coming up in the comments is how white men approach black women. Often they wait for a black woman to show some clear sign of interest before they ask her out! It seems like a cowardly excuse. Man up and just ask her!

Dalyn Montgomery, also known as brohammas, has an interesting take on this at his blog, Pages From My Notebook. He is a white American man who lives in Philadelphia. He dated in the 1990s and, in the end, married a black woman.

He says white men have three main ways of approaching women:

  1. The scuzz ball: He expresses his interest directly. No games. If he gets shot down, he moves on. What his approach lacks in quality he makes up in quantity. Sooner or later some woman will say yes. He wants sex, not a girlfriend.
  2. The “normal” guy: He plays a cat-and-mouse game with a woman to show his interest, but not too directly or strongly: he does not want to seem like a scuzz ball – or appear too desperate (even if he is). That is why in “Swingers” (1996) they wait three days before they call a girl back.
  3. The “friends” guy: He becomes your friend, but he hopes to take it to another level later on, hoping that by then he has gained your trust, etc. This is how Duckie failed to get Molly Ringwald in “Pretty in Pink” (1986).

Most white men try each of these at some point in their lives. Some white men follow none of them: Montgomery calls them the curve balls.

Now he adds to all this that white people are taught that black people hate them.

So with all that in mind, here is how each approach views black women:

  • The scuzz ball: Black women, especially young ones, are easy and I need to get laid.
  • The normal guy: If she is extremely hot or if I have something to prove, then I will go after her, otherwise going after white women is way more promising.
  • The friends guy: What? Me with a black woman? Come on. (They lack confidence even with women of their own race.)

How do black women see this? Scuzz balls have the wrong sort of interest, of course, while the other two, from what I can tell, come off as having too little interest.

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An Asian fetish, also known as yellow fever, is where a man mainly goes for East Asian women. For East Asian men this is considered to be natural and therefore it is not a fetish. But for white American men it is seen as an unnatural desire and therefore is a fetish.

In America by far the most common sort of mixed-race marriage is between white men and Asian women. So it seems like white men have a thing for Asian women.

babysan-speaksjapaneseBut it is more than just the numbers or even all the war brides and mail-order brides: Asian women report that some white men do have this strange hang-up on them: these men seem to date mainly Asian women, stereotype them by saying that Asian women are “exotic”, “hot” and are much more willing to serve and please their men. Some of these men even go so far as to learn all things Asian. It all comes off as kind of creepy.

Some argue that there is no such thing as an Asian fetish. Here are the three arguments I have heard:

  1. White women paint it as a fetish to shame white men out of dating Asian women. Because only Asian women present a serious threat to white women.  After all, when black men or Jewish men go after blondes, no one calls that a “blonde fetish”. Or when a white woman will date only black men, no one calls that a “black fetish”.
  2. Asian women are naturally more desirable than white or black women. Steve Sailer argues that they look more womanly because they have less muscle by weight than either white women or black women.
  3. Asian women are more open to dating outside their race than other women in America. A speed dating study done by Columbia University showed that it is women, not men, who make dating decisions based on race. Men are dogs and will go for any pretty woman regardless of race. Given that, many white men will naturally wind up with Asian women.

Asian women in America, much more so than black, white or Latina women, are way more likely grow up in a place where most males do not belong to their race, where most are in fact white. It is also more acceptable for Asian women and white men to marry each other than for either to marry black or Latino.

Asian men get screwed in this because white women are not equally open about dating outside their race. Also white stereotypes of Asian men as nerdy and unmanly do not help.

Samhita at Feministing put it well, speaking for many Asian women:

But for the rest of us, that are sick and tired of white men being into us because we are “exotic,” well this shit is just tired. I am not your fetish, I am not your fantasy and, yeah, I might be good in bed, but my race is not why.


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lauren-london-parentsLast year I wrote about why so few white men marry black women. I said that it came down to racism: white men do not want to have black children.

It has become one of my most commented-on posts. Over the past several nights it has got over a hundred comments from white men who object to me calling them racists – fair enough – but then fill their comments with the most rank stereotypes about black women and black people in general! Priceless.

But then in the meantime I read the Columbia study about race and dating. Also, some of the comments have made me think more about the whole thing. Now I am not so sure.

The comments pointed out two things wrong with the first post:

  1. I said that black women in America are more open to interracial marriage than white men because a greater percentage are, in fact, in interracial marriages. But Uncle Milton pointed out that that is because black women have more opportunity (at least on paper) to marry outside their race – because most men in America are from other races. I grant his point.
  2. I left out any account of what black women think of the whole thing! When I found out that only one white American man in 400 is married to a black woman, it seemed like a straightforward case of white racism. But then some black female commenters said that the ugly history that black women have had with white men in America – all the rapes back in slave days – is in the back of their minds and that works against such relationships. And, even apart from that, the ongoing racism in American society makes it hard to trust whites. True: marriage is an act of profound trust.

The Columbia study meanwhile found that while men are dogs and only care about looks, not race, women prefer men of their own race. Women, not men, apply race to dating.

Part of why Anglo-America has a One Drop Rule is because the English brought their own women. The white women would marry white men and have white children. Without that the One Drop Rule would have had little support among men, as it did in the old New Orleans under the French where white women were in short supply.

So then black women are to blame, right?

Well, it is not that simple. First, there were not enough black women in the Columbia study to draw any firm conclusions about them. But I grant that most black women would prefer to marry a black man.

Yet on the other hand I cannot shake from my mind the way white men, at least in New York, act as if black women are not living, breathing women. Like some of the white commenters, they see them as black first and women second – if at all.

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Note: This post comes mainly from “Roll, Jordan, Roll” (1974) by Eugene Genovese, a Brooklyn-born Marxist historian. He is a white man who argues that it was not as bad as black people think:

When you think of white men and black women back in slave days in the US, the thing that springs to mind is the rape of black slave women by white slave masters. It is an image so striking and terrible that it is hard to get it out of your mind. In fact, the Mammy stereotype was pushed by the South to counteract it.

It is a fact of history: we have accounts of just such rapes. But while true, it was not as common as you might think. During the civil war when the Union army got to the large estates in the low country of Georgia and South Carolina the northerners were surprised by how unmixed the blacks were.

In our time something like 75% of blacks are part white, but at the end of the civil war fewer than 25% were. Most of the mixing of the races took place after the civil war, after the slaves were freed.

The government used to count mulattoes separately, those who were part black, part white. So we know where they lived and where they came from. They mostly did not come from the big slave estates in the deep South but from the towns and cities of the upper South, in states like Arkansas and Tennessee. As it turns out, these were the places where there was an oversupply of both white men and black women.

And just as we have accounts of rapes and of black children of white slave masters, so we also have accounts of the opposite, of slave masters who did not permit such things – not just according to the slave masters themselves, but even according to their slaves after they were freed and had no reason to lie about it.

In fact, we even have the diary of one slave master, a 44-year-old virgin apparently, who complains about the lack of sex in his life – even though he owned slave women. When he thought about where to get it, he did not think about his black slave women but the white prostitutes in town.

Some slave women, called fancy girls, mostly light-skinned, were sold to work in the household with the understanding that they would provide special services.

While some white men did openly live with black women, most hid what was going on as something shameful. As late as the 1970s, more than a hundred years after the civil war,  we have court records where it is assumed that having sex with a black woman is so shameful for a white man that none would admit to it unless it was true.

In most cases slave masters who had sex with black slave women were just using them, but it was not always that simple. From court records we know that sometimes it led to divorce and contested wills. While most white men did nothing to try to free their black children and black lovers, some did.

– Abagond, 2008.

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White men with black women are not as common in America as you might expect. Even though an eighth of American women are black, fewer than one married white man in 400 has a black wife! That cannot be an accident. Compare that to how many have Asian wives: about one in 100 – even though there are way fewer Asian women.

Given the numbers of white, black and Asian women there are in America and looking at who white men marry, you can work out how much they like different kinds of women as wives:

  • 132: white women
  • 100: American women in general
  • 23: Asian women
  • 2: black women

So why do so few white men marry black women?

Here are some reasons that you hear:

  1. Lack of opportunity: Most white men live in a nearly all-white world. Most know only a few black women.
  2. Lack of education in black women: White men look for women with the same level of education. That limits the number of black women they might date and marry even further.
  3. Lack of good looks in black women: Most white men think black women are not all that good looking when compared to white women. That comes across in their phrase “good-looking for a black girl”. And you see it in their lists of beautiful women on the Internet: they have few if any black women and those they do have tend to be light-skinned. An amazing-looking black woman can walk right by a white man without him batting an eye.
  4. Lack of friendliness of black women: White men tend to see black women as being hard to get along with – the Sapphire stereotype. It is just not worth the trouble.
  5. Lack of acceptance among white friends and family: White men are afraid of what their friends or family will say. Whites are less accepting of mixed relationships, especially mixed marriages, than blacks are.
  6. Lack of desire among black women: Among Americans, black women are the least likely to marry outside their race.

That last one is dead wrong. Look at the percentage of married Americans in 2006 who were married outside their race:

  • 19.5 Asian women
  • 8.4 black men
  • 7.2 Asian men
  • 3.6 black women
  • 2.2 white men
  • 1.9 white women

It is white people who stick most to their own kind, not black women – or even Asian men.

The other reasons have some truth to them, but notice how they never seem to blame white men.

They all avoid the simplest reason of all, the one that you hardly ever hear:

  1. White men are racist: They do not want their sons and daughters to be black. Not because their parents are against it, not because their friends are against it, not because white society is against it – because they themselves are against it!

As white people put it, “What about the children?” As if it was some terrible thing to be black! Well, to a white racist it is.

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White American men seem to go for certain kinds of black women and not for others. The same is true for black men and white women, but that is another post.

I have not done any grand survey nor am I setting forth any iron rules – I know all white men are not alike. These are  just some notes and observations of what I have noticed in New York.

If any black women or white men want to add their own general observations that would be great. If I have it all wrong, please tell me. I have some examples at the end. You can weigh in on them.

If you ask white men to name a beautiful black woman, most will name someone who is light-skinned, like Beyonce or Halle Berry. So you would think that among black women they would mainly go after light-skinned women. But the strange thing is they do not.

And yet they do prize whiteness in women, even in black women, but the whiteness they want is not as simple as skin colour. It is more in the general shape of her body – thin, maybe with large breasts, but not too big of a bottom. The features of her face can be black, but not too black. Hair, surprisingly, does not seem to matter that much. So it is not uncommon to see a white man with a dark-skinned black woman with natural hair.

Both black men and white men in America are affected by white ideas of female beauty, but they apply them to black women differently:

Black men apply it to skin colour (light) and hair (long and straight), but not so much to the shape of the body (still thick, though that seems to be changing).

White men are almost the opposite of that: they do not care so much about skin colour or hair – those who do apparently stick to white women – but they do care about the shape of the body and the features of the face.

Some examples:

Many white men would date these women: Iman, Jourdan Dunn, Gabrielle Union, Sanaa Lathan, Garcelle Beauvais, Lela Rochon, YaYa Da Costa, Angela Bassett, Kerry Washington, Aisha Tyler, any young black woman in an ad, in Playboy, any black weather girl or supermodel.


Most of these women have what I call a cutsie-pie face, like Gabrielle and Garcelle.

Way fewer white men would date these: Phylicia Rashad, Toccara Jones, Bria Myles, Estelle, Brandy Norwood, Adriana Bombom, Elise Neal, Latavia Roberson, Jill Marie Jones, Sade, Omotola, Liris Crosse, Angell Conwell, Heather Headley.


By dating I do not mean sex. I mean someone they would seriously show to their mother as their girlfriend.

Heather Headley and Sade, by the way, are married to white men. But, like I said, not all white men are alike.

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