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Commenter Peanut on real reasons some black women prefer not to date some white men (based on her own experience):

  1. It is difficult for many white men to see black women as individuals, even when they prefer to date black women. Example: expecting all black women to be able to dance.
  2. Some white people tend to view the attractive, classy and intelligent black women they encounter as exceptions and exempt from being “regular black” by virtue of the fact that they do not conform to negative black female stereotypes.  Example: being called white girl in a black girl’s body, a chocolate-dipped white girl.
  3. Some white people forget that you are black and will say stuff without thinking in front of you. Too many examples to recount.
  4. Referring to black people who do not conform to mainstream (white society’s) expectations as “ghetto”.
  5. Attributing bad behaviour on the part of the individual as a black attribute. Or racializing behaviour that has nothing to do with race.
  6. Some white men think they are doing black women a favour by dating and or mating them. Since black women are perceived supposedly as being on the bottom of the beauty hierarchy.  This is especially true of older white men who married white, had white children, divorced and now approach young, young black women.
  7. Some white men who date black women think they are officially an authority or expert on black people overall by virtue of the fact that their girlfriend or wife is black.
  8. Some white men expect you to mindlessly agree with them about issues pertaining to politics and race, like affirmative action. When you disagree, however gently and politely, you are seen as combative or you hurt their feelings or alienate them.
  9. The Bodyguard Complex: Some white men feel as if it is their job to “save” the black woman from the “wretchedness” of the black community.
  10. White men who date black women as a way to rationalize away their own racism. Some white men think that because they date or end up with a black women that they are exempt from racist thoughts. Hence the classic phrase, “I’m not racist, I dated a black girl in high school.”

I do not condemn white men who have these thoughts. White American culture has a history of brainwashing both blacks and whites to believe certains notions and stereotypes. But there is always going to be that awkward moment where you realize how our two cultures have really been created in opposition to each other.

Overall, if you are a black women who prefers to date white men or other non-black men, go for it! As long as he respects you. If you are a black women who prefers black men, go for it, as long as he respects you. If you do not care, more power to you. That is my take on it.

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There are only 34,000 black men in America married to Asian women. That is about one married black man in a hundred. Asian women marry black men at about the same rate. Some number of these men met their wives overseas while serving in the military. Black men are five times more likely to marry an Asian than are black women.

Despite their low numbers they have some famous sons and daughters: Tiger Woods (golfer, Thai mother), Amerie (singer, Korean mother), Hines Ward (football player, Korean), Will Demps (football player, Korean)Tasha Reid (rapper, Korean), Crystal Kay (singer, Korean), Tomika Skanes (video vixen, Korean), La’Shontae Heckard (video vixen, Korean), Kimora Lee Simmons (businesswoman, Korean-Japanese), Sharon Leal (actress, Filipino) and Lou Jing (singer, Chinese).

Steve Sailer, an intellectual skinhead, says that Asian women are the most desirable women and black men are the most desirable men – more desirable than even their white counterparts. He bases that on the amount of body fat men and women of different races have.

That helps him to show why so many white women are with black men and so many white men are with Asian women. But he never stops to ask why the match made in Sailerite heaven – black men and Asian women – is so rare, less than 2% of all interracial marriages.

In an OkCupid study of online dating, Asian women were the least likely to show interest in black men.

Some say it is because Asian parents are even more racist than white ones. I am not sure how you would prove that. Kate Rigg put it this way:

My boyfriend’s Black and there’s gonna be trouble
My parents want to live in a Negro-free bubble

For black servicemen in Asia the circumstances would be different since presumably they would be seen as being more American than black.

Then there are some who say it is because Asian women do not fit black ideas of female beauty. Their bodies in general are too thin. Smooth magazine, a black men’s magazine, lists its top 100 women every year. In 2009 not a single one was clearly Asian – though in the past some have been part Asian, like Tomika Skanes and La’Shontae Heckard.

Even granting all that, there are most certainly black men who love how Asian women look and Asian women who are not about to let racism get in the way of their own happiness.

But maybe it is simpler than all that: As it turns out white men, who so famously have an Asian fetish, marry Asian women at about the same rate as black men: about one married man in a hundred.

But then why do white men seem to have an Asian fetish when black men generally do not? Because one Asian woman in six is married to a white man. But it is probably not even a case of a white fetish among Asian women: many of them live and work in places where it is much easier to meet white men than even Asian men, much less black men.

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ClaudiaLynxOkCupid, an Internet dating website, put out their numbers on race and dating last week. Some of the main findings that I pull from it (OkCupid had a somewhat different take):

  1. Women: Middle Eastern women  are hot! Black women are not. White women are second-to-last (despite all that free marketing from Hollywood).
  2. Men: white men are on top, Asian Indian men dead last, black men second-to-last.
  3. Black women like white men more than they are liked back – even though men are dogs!
  4. Only some people prefer to date within their own race, like white women and Asian Indian men. Most do not given the chance.
  5. Race affects dating for both men and women and it is not just a matter of looks or stated preferences either.

“Hot”, “liked” and “prefer” are based on reply rates to messages between those whom OkCupid matched based on stated preferences and some other stuff. They also controlled for looks and male height, so this is not a tale of supposedly short Asian men or ugly black women.

While the reply rates were wildly different based on the race of the sender, there was little difference based on, say, Zodiac sign.

The advantage of the OkCupid study is that it looks at almost a million people and looks at their actions not their fine words. (They did throw in some opinion polls, but I am basing nothing on that.)

The disadvantage of the study is that their users are “better-educated, younger, and far more progressive” than most, that online dating can only be part of the picture and that their study gives the what but not the why.

Even so, their numbers generally do match what one New York dating service (whose name escapes me) found: that black men avoid dating black women and that American women avoid Asian men, particularly Asian Indian men.

But, unlike OkCupid, the owner of that dating service asked his customers why: black men told him they do not need a dating service to meet black women while American women said they do not want to date foreign men – which apparently they had stereotyped Asian men as being (the perpetual foreigner stereotype).

The OkCupid post got over 500 comments. I did not read them all, but most of the ones I saw kept making the point that having certain preferences is  not the same as being racist. That misses the point that the study made: race still mattered even after taking that stuff into account.

Women listed in order of reply rates to their messages:

  1. 49.5 Middle Eastern
  2. 46.0 Pacific Islander
  3. 44.4 Other
  4. 43.7 Asian
  5. 42.7 Indian
  6. 42.5 Hispanic/Latin
  7. 42.3 Native American
  8. 42.1 White
  9. 34.3 Black

Men listed in order of reply rates to their messages:

  1. 29.2 White
  2. 27.8 Native American
  3. 26.8 Other
  4. 25.7 Middle Eastern
  5. 24.6 Pacific Islander
  6. 23.1 Hispanic/Latin
  7. 22.2 Asian
  8. 21.7 Black
  9. 20.8 Indian

Who replies to black women (by reply rate):

  • 41: Native American, Other
  • 40: Middle Eastern
  • 39:
  • 38:
  • 37: Black, Indian
  • 36: Hispanic/Latin
  • 35:
  • 34: (the mean)
  • 33:
  • 32: Pacific Islander, White
  • 31: Asian

Who replies to black men (by reply rate):

  • 28: Black
  • 27: Native American
  • 26:
  • 25: Pacific Islander
  • 24: Other
  • 23:
  • 22:
  • 21: Indian, Middle Eastern, White (the mean)
  • 20:
  • 19: Hispanic/Latin
  • 18:
  • 17: Asian

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PeterNortonAccording to commenter Black & German, a black woman married to a white man, here is the sort of white men who go for black women and will seriously date and marry them:

  1. Style: The complete absence of swagger. White men call this “game”. Guys with swagger are trying to project an image. That means that they care too much about what other people think. Avoid them like the plague.
  2. Line of work: He is an engineer, systems analyst, lab technician, middle-manager, mechanic, union worker, researcher, graphic designer, college professor, accountant or something else that involves well-paid drone status. Avoid any man with a glamorous career like lawyer, doctor, corporate executive, etc. Self-employed men are “iffy” and have to be evaluated case-by-case.
  3. Looks: He is good-looking but your girlfriends would describe him as “cute” rather than “sexy” or “hot”. He may actually be completely gorgeous but without the swagger nobody notices.
  4. Dating life: He does not “date around” and is looking for a serious relationship. He has not been on a date in a while (maybe a long while, maybe even years), not because he “can’t get any” but because he is picky and the behaviour of most women turns him off. He is usually too reserved or shy to ask women out.
  5. What he likes about you: He is attracted to your intelligence and personality and spends hours talking to you.
  6. What he likes to do in his free time: He is into computers or computer games. He likes to read or watch non-fiction and science fiction. Trekkies and guys into Japanese animation are a good bet. He has a geeky hobby like programming robots or remodelling old cars. He has circuit boards on his desk at home.
  7. His manner: He is a bit socially awkward. He is not very good at hiding his emotions and his face is pretty much an open book. He does not brag and his rare compliments are spontaneous and almost involuntary, but sincere.
  8. Religion: He believes in God but is not very religious. He will attend church with you but probably would not go regularly on his own.
  9. Intelligence: He is highly intelligent. Some of these guys are have an IQ above 125 – although their scores tend to be skewed towards the non-verbal end which is probably one of their problems in developing “game”.

Basically, he is one of those guys you passed over in high school because he was not cool enough.

They are independent minded and do not care what others think of them. They want a woman who is  interesting, intelligent, healthy, and pretty, and do not care much about race, ethnicity or hair colour. That is why you see these men with Asian women.

They do not chase you – at first. These are the more reserved men. You have to take the first – and sometimes the second and, frustratingly, the third – step. Once you have their complete and utter attention the chase begins. Some of these guys are very slow to catch on, though.

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SomethingNew

Here are some racist things that commenter Black&German and her friends have heard white men say to them as black women:

  1. The best thing about black women is their asses. Is it true you like anal?
  2. I prefer black women because white women are such prudes.
  3. I like black women. Just not the ghetto ones.
  4. Hey, you’re pretty! You look just like Halle Berry. (Or whatever famous black woman you can think of. They all look alike, right?)
  5. You know you want it! Everybody knows black women can’t get enough.
  6. What do you mean you don’t want to date me? You should be happy I even asked!
  7. How about we get to know each other a little better? You know, go to my place. No? What if I pay you?
  8. I’ve always wanted to know what it’s like to do it with a black girl.
  9. My friend over there just came back from [some overseas country] and he’s looking for some female company. You’re very pretty. How much?
  10. I don’t usually like black women but you’re different. You’ve got class.
  11. I heard your boyfriend is white. So, you like white dick? Want some of mine?
  12. [If they refuse to go out with you, slam them against the wall and scream in their face.] You think you’re too good for me?
  13. So, if black men have such big dicks doesn’t that mean black women… ?
  14. Don’t go acting all uppity.
  15. Oh, God. My dad would totally kill me if he knew I was talking to you.
  16. You know, if I knocked you up our babies would look white.

Her remarks:

The last one (about babies) was actually after dating him for a few weeks, sitting in a nice restaurant. I nearly choked to death on my pasta. What the hell was he thinking? I didn’t stay to find out.

I’d heard that some white men think that black women are whores but I thought that just meant “easy”. I didn’t know that they assumed we were actually prostitutes. And that the “nice” looking ones are just expensive prostitutes. The first time I was propositioned I just stared like a deer in the headlights. I thought it was a bad joke, or something.

I once had a drunk guy in a bar stick ten dollars in my pants and ask me to dance for him. Umm… Sure, honey. Just let me find that pole I always carry with me…

I do have to say that the guy who slammed me against the wall was hyped up on something. Crystal, probably. That stuff makes people crazy. And horny. Baaaaaad combination.

Although I must admit I’ve had black men make some similarly – ahem – inappropriate comments, as well.

The most amazing thing is where some of these comments were made. Like in the hallway outside of a database management seminar or at the company Christmas party. Some men have no shame.

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An Asian fetish, also known as yellow fever, is where a man mainly goes for East Asian women. For East Asian men this is considered to be natural and therefore it is not a fetish. But for white American men it is seen as an unnatural desire and therefore is a fetish.

In America by far the most common sort of mixed-race marriage is between white men and Asian women. So it seems like white men have a thing for Asian women.

babysan-speaksjapaneseBut it is more than just the numbers or even all the war brides and mail-order brides: Asian women report that some white men do have this strange hang-up on them: these men seem to date mainly Asian women, stereotype them by saying that Asian women are “exotic”, “hot” and are much more willing to serve and please their men. Some of these men even go so far as to learn all things Asian. It all comes off as kind of creepy.

Some argue that there is no such thing as an Asian fetish. Here are the three arguments I have heard:

  1. White women paint it as a fetish to shame white men out of dating Asian women. Because only Asian women present a serious threat to white women.  After all, when black men or Jewish men go after blondes, no one calls that a “blonde fetish”. Or when a white woman will date only black men, no one calls that a “black fetish”.
  2. Asian women are naturally more desirable than white or black women. Steve Sailer argues that they look more womanly because they have less muscle by weight than either white women or black women.
  3. Asian women are more open to dating outside their race than other women in America. A speed dating study done by Columbia University showed that it is women, not men, who make dating decisions based on race. Men are dogs and will go for any pretty woman regardless of race. Given that, many white men will naturally wind up with Asian women.

Asian women in America, much more so than black, white or Latina women, are way more likely grow up in a place where most males do not belong to their race, where most are in fact white. It is also more acceptable for Asian women and white men to marry each other than for either to marry black or Latino.

Asian men get screwed in this because white women are not equally open about dating outside their race. Also white stereotypes of Asian men as nerdy and unmanly do not help.

Samhita at Feministing put it well, speaking for many Asian women:

But for the rest of us, that are sick and tired of white men being into us because we are “exotic,” well this shit is just tired. I am not your fetish, I am not your fantasy and, yeah, I might be good in bed, but my race is not why.

IWILNO2001

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sealklum

This post carries over from a thread on the Suggestions page:

Some people say that when a black man is in an interracial couple we hear all about it but when a black woman is you hardly do.

I get that feeling too, but it is a hard thing to prove. The best I can come up with is to list all the famous people I can think of who have been part of an interracial couple (just black-and-white ones) and see if there is any sort of imbalance. In the writing of this blog and reading its comments I have found out about interracial couples I had no idea of, like Billy Bob Thornton and Cynda Williams, but I will not count those (they are listed later in the post).

Here is my list:

  1. Gabrielle Beauvais
  2. Robert De Niro
  3. Kid Rock
  4. Roger Ebert
  5. Diana Ross
  6. Seal and Heidi Klum
  7. David Bowie and Iman
  8. Quincy Jones
  9. Sidney Poitier
  10. Ice-T
  11. Naomi Campbell
  12. Clarence Thomas
  13. The Lovings
  14. Tiger Woods
  15. Kobe Bryant
  16. Ray J and Kim Kardashian
  17. Simon Cowell
  18. Robin Thicke
  19. Cuba Gooding
  20. Grace Jones
  21. O.J. Simpson

So, out of 21 couples 10 have a black man and 11 have a black woman, which means interracial couples with black men are not any better known (assuming, of course, that they are equal in number, which is certainly not the case in America as a whole).

Now break it down by the race and sex of the famous person:

  • 9 black men: Seal, Jones, Poitier, Ice-T, Thomas, Woods, Bryant, Ray J, Simpson.
  • 7 white men: De Niro, Rock, Ebert, Bowie, Mr Loving, Cowell, Thicke.
  • 6 black women:  Beauvais, Ross, Iman, Campbell, Mrs Loving, Jones.
  • 2 white women: Klum, Kardashian.

Again it seems more or less balanced, though black men are at the top, but look at white women: only two, and both are (were) with a black man who is also famous!

Why is that?

A simple answer is to say that women want to marry up while men do not care. So in American society white women would tend not to marry a black man unless he was rich or famous. That makes sense of the imbalance given above, but it utterly fails to make sense of the fact that in most black-and-white marriages in America it is the man who is black.

Some other famous people who have been in a black-and-white interracial relationship (at least according to Internet rumour):

  • black men:
    • Akon
    • James Earl Jones
    • John Legend
    • Montell Williams
    • Reggie Bush
    • Sammy Davis, Jr
    • Taye Diggs
    • T-Pain
  • white men:
    • Ben Broufman
    • Bill Maher
    • Billy Bob Thornton
    • Boris Becker
    • Brad Pitt
    • Clint Eastwood
    • Colin Farrell
    • George Lucas
    • Kevin Federline
    • Marc Bolan (T. Rex)
    • Mark Ecko
    • Matt Stone (“South Park”)
    • Matthew McConaughey
    • MC Serch
    • Mick Jagger
    • Paul Krugman
    • Paul Wall
    • Peter Norton (of Norton antivirus software)
    • Prince Albert of Monaco
    • Prince Maximilian of Liechtenstein
    • Shia LaBeouf
    • Ted Danson
    • William Cohen (former Defence Secretary)
    • Wolfgang Puck
  • black women:
    • Aisha Tyler
    • Alfre Woodard
    • Alice Walker
    • Beverly Johnson
    • Chaka Khan
    • Cynda Williams
    • Debra Wilson (“MADtv”)
    • Diahann Carroll
    • Donna Summer
    • Dorothy Dandridge
    • Downtown Julie Brown
    • Erica Dunlap (Miss America 2004)
    • Estelle
    • Eve
    • Halle Berry
    • Heather Headley
    • Jamaica Kincaid
    • Janet Jackson
    • June Jordan
    • Kerry Washington
    • Kim Wayans
    • Lena Horne
    • Leslie Uggams
    • Lynn Whitfield
    • Minnie Riperton
    • Oluchi Onweagba
    • Paula Patton
    • Pearl Bailey
    • Rihanna
    • Robin Givens
    • Roxie Roker (Helen Willis on “The Jeffersons”, Lenny Kravitz’s mother)
    • Sade
    • Sharon Leal
    • Sherri Saum
    • Stacey Dash
    • Susan Rice
    • Suzan-Lori Parks
    • Tamyra Gray (“American Idol”)
    • Thandie Newton
    • Tina Turner
    • Tracey Edmonds
    • Traci Bingham
    • Venus Williams
    • Victoria Rowell
    • Whoopi Goldberg
    • Zoe Kravitz
  • white women:
    • Ellen Pompeo (“Grey’s Anatomy”)

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lauren-london-parentsLast year I wrote about why so few white men marry black women. I said that it came down to racism: white men do not want to have black children.

It has become one of my most commented-on posts. Over the past several nights it has got over a hundred comments from white men who object to me calling them racists – fair enough – but then fill their comments with the most rank stereotypes about black women and black people in general! Priceless.

But then in the meantime I read the Columbia study about race and dating. Also, some of the comments have made me think more about the whole thing. Now I am not so sure.

The comments pointed out two things wrong with the first post:

  1. I said that black women in America are more open to interracial marriage than white men because a greater percentage are, in fact, in interracial marriages. But Uncle Milton pointed out that that is because black women have more opportunity (at least on paper) to marry outside their race – because most men in America are from other races. I grant his point.
  2. I left out any account of what black women think of the whole thing! When I found out that only one white American man in 400 is married to a black woman, it seemed like a straightforward case of white racism. But then some black female commenters said that the ugly history that black women have had with white men in America – all the rapes back in slave days – is in the back of their minds and that works against such relationships. And, even apart from that, the ongoing racism in American society makes it hard to trust whites. True: marriage is an act of profound trust.

The Columbia study meanwhile found that while men are dogs and only care about looks, not race, women prefer men of their own race. Women, not men, apply race to dating.

Part of why Anglo-America has a One Drop Rule is because the English brought their own women. The white women would marry white men and have white children. Without that the One Drop Rule would have had little support among men, as it did in the old New Orleans under the French where white women were in short supply.

So then black women are to blame, right?

Well, it is not that simple. First, there were not enough black women in the Columbia study to draw any firm conclusions about them. But I grant that most black women would prefer to marry a black man.

Yet on the other hand I cannot shake from my mind the way white men, at least in New York, act as if black women are not living, breathing women. Like some of the white commenters, they see them as black first and women second – if at all.

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interracialdatingFrom 2002 to 2004 researchers at Columbia University ran something of a speed dating service in New York. Not so much to find dates for the 400 graduate students who signed up, though they did that, but to find out what goes into the decision to date someone. One thing they looked at was how and why race affects dating.

The beauty of speed dating is that you can find out who wants who in short order. And, if you ask enough survey questions and run enough numbers, you can start to find out why.

The study found that women prefer to date men of their own race, even when given plenty of opportunity to date outside their race. Men, however, do not care – they are far more interested in a woman’s looks than her race. Race also matters less to those who are older or better looking.

In the study white men and East Asian women often wound up picking each other. Not because white men have a thing for East Asian women or think they are better looking (they do not, not in this study), nor is it because East Asian women prefer white men. Instead it is because East Asian women are far more willing to date outside their race than other women.

While East Asian women do prefer men of their own race, they have nothing against white men. They do, however, have something against dating black and Hispanic men because of their race.

There were four races in the study: black, white, Hispanic (not a race, I know, but in this study it was) and East Asian. They wanted to do South Asians too but not enough signed up.

Too few blacks signed up to draw any firm conclusions about them. But of those in the study, the women preferred their own race the most strongly. The black men did not care – just like the men of other races.

So why do women prefer men of their own race? The study found that it was not because they thought their men were better looking or shared common interests or came from the same class or had the same level of education. It had to do with where the women grew up.

That surprised the researchers: where a woman lived when she was 11 told you more than anything else about the race of man she would date – even if she was at a top university in a big city far from home. Those who came from parts of the country or parts of the world that were more racist were more likely to stick to their own race when dating.

They also found that those who grew up in places where there were many people of another race were less likely to date that race! So, for example, whites who came from a place with many blacks were less likely to date blacks.

The study said that a person’s race did not affect one’s judgement about who was good-looking.

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