The Mythic Past, according to Jason Stanley in “How Fascism Works” (2018), is a fascist technique of control. Combined with fascist propaganda and anti-intellectualism, it creates a state of unreality in which fake news and conspiracy theories drive out reasoned debate.
George Orwell in “1984”:
“‘Who controls the past,’ ran the Party slogan, ‘controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.”
Practitioners:
- early 1900s: Fascist Italy, Nazi Germany, neo-Confederates (all those statues);
- early 2000s: The Daily Stormer; the right wing in the US, France, Hungary, Poland, Turkey, India, Burma, etc.
Not mere sanitization: As reported on this blog, countries like Japan and the US love to sanitize their ugly past when it is taught at high school. The Mythic Past does that too, but it goes way beyond:
Red flags: Thanks to the logic of fascist power, the Mythic Past tends to have these features regardless of the actual facts of history:
- it is glorious: the country was strong and ruled others, everyone practised traditional values and gender roles, and “we” were on top, whatever we (race, religion, and/or culture) the fascist leaders say they champion. It was all ended by globalism, cosmopolitan elites, and respect for “universal values” like equality. Or by out-group minorities gaining too much power. Either way it fatally weakened the nation.
- strong, happy patriarchal families: when men were men and women were women! Men bravely fought in wars, women knew their place and were devoted mothers. Families were not falling apart like they are now as people abandon traditional gender roles. Fascist leaders need to glorify strong patriarchal families – where whatever the father says goes – to make their own hierarchy and authoritarianism seem right and good. What is the Dear Leader, after all, but the father of the nation?
- civilization and conquest: in the Mythic Past the country ruled or conquered others, furthered or defended civilization. Because fascist leaders themselves are bent on doing the same sort of thing (imperialism, ethnic cleansing, genocide, etc). Therefore:
- exceptionalism: Stanley: “If one can convince a population that they are rightfully exceptional, that they are destined by nature or religious fate to rule other populations, one has already convinced them of a monstruous lie.”
- the ugly past downplayed, denied or censored: the country was ethnically pure and good. It has an amazingly unblemished record – despite its love of military solutions and unchecked power.
- liberals say the Mythic Past is untrue. And therefore not a good grounding for government policy. But, as Stanley notes: “It is typical for fascist politicians to represent a country’s actual history in conspiratorial terms as a narrative concocted by liberal elites and cosmopolitans to victimize the people of the true ‘nation’.”
The Mythic Past is untrue – thus the word “mythic” – because it has little regard for facts and every regard for supporting fascist policies. Fascists imagine their own designs for the future as a glorious age in the past. The point of history is not to learn from it but use it to concoct a version for poltical gain.
The Mythic Past is always about the present.
– Abagond, 2022.
See also:
- practitioners:
- strongmen:
- Donald Trump
- Viktor Orban
- Narendra Modi
- Mussolini
- Hitler
- Marine Le Pen
- The Daily Stormer
- Neo-Confederates
- strongmen:
- Ur-Fascism
- fake news
- conspiracy theory
- George Orwell:
- political arguments – and how they are shaped by the sort of family you come from.
- high-school history books:
- Japan: Japanese history textbooks
- US: Why American history gets whitewashed
- Texas: History in Texas schoolbooks
- Arizona: Books banned from Tucson classrooms – this was back in 2012!
- Us and Them
- conquest
582
abagond:
This post is grossly uninformed and unintentionally ironic (I won’t say it’s just you lying to your audience, though I do think you must realize it’s at least not true at some level). Of course things have been getting observably worse for most people in the US. This isn’t our imagination. I have my own life experiences, and have seen what my parents and grandparents experienced. For every generation since the Boomers, it has been gettin “progressively” harder and harder for people in the US to live out something approximating the American Dream. Young people don’t even believe in it anymore. Many accept that they will never be able to buy a home or even be out of debt, so they enjoy meaningless ephemeral experiences like avocado toast.
You then compare the present to Nazi Europe. You think things weren’t pretty crappy in the early 1930s in Germany and Italy? You think Hitler rose to power because of “myths”? All those pictures of the excesses/depravities of Weimar Germany, along with the wheelbarrows full of money to buy groceries, must have been photoshopped. Yes, Jews played a disproportionate role in wrecking Weimar Germany and largely controlled the communists trying to foment revolution in Germany (the same way they had done in Russia earlier), which directly led to the Nazis taking power, but that must have been a coincidence.
We’re not there yet in the US. But we are obviously heading in that direction.
You’re trying to gaslight your audience, and maybe yourself too, into believing it’s all a “myth”. Don’t believe your lyin’ eyes!
What’s more ridiculous/ironic is that George Orwell was a disillusioned communist himself and was primarily writing about that system. We’re heading there now and it’s certainly not the right leading the way. Nineteen Eighty-Four introduced the concept of Newspeak and the Ministry of Truth (among many others). Now we have suddenly discovered the terror of “misinformation”–we suddenly need a central government controlled, unelected “Disinformation Governance Board”. No one should report purported vaccine side effects because the “science” shows the vaccine is “safe and effective”. No one should challenge the integrity of the 2020 election, because it was the most “safe and secure” in history and there is “no evidence” of fraud (despite loads of evidence, including a major movie featuring some of it, to the contrary).
It is to laugh. And you are highlighting the “Daily Stormer” as if it were some major thing on the right. It’s not. Really, it’s not. I never read it or the Stormfront (and wasn’t immediately aware that they were separate sites–as you highlighted in your post on DS, though I guess I should be, as I’ve clicked through both at some point in the past). I initially thought Andrew Anglin was a clown, and didn’t pay much attention to him, but he seems to have matured a lot. I’ve read several of his recent articles on Unz.com and most were very good. So I copied an image from one of them (https://www.unz.com/aanglin/george-w-bush-accuses-putin-of-launching-a-wholly-unjustified-and-brutal-invasion-of-iraq/) that linked back to DS and predictably drew outrage from you guys. I actually thought about taking a few minutes and doing an image search to get a different link, but I decided against it. Many on the dissident right, myself included, are tired of constantly disavowing others on the right, e.g., anyone non-black who happens to have used the “N” word before. The left never disavows their own, though the left has historically committed many more atrocities, etc. We need to learn from that.
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@ biff
You seem to think I secretly agree with Nazi and Republican propaganda – and yet want to cast doubt on them in my post. How does that even make sense? Why would I do that? And what in this post or any other post would lead you to believe that?
Do you think I write these posts wearing a MAGA hat?
The best short description of how I view the US and its history is the following, where racism is the defining characteristic:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/11/02/the-three-pillars-of-american-white-supremacy/
I believe a fair reading of this blog would show that is way closer to what I think in practice than any fascist or MAGA model of history.
That is not to say I am completely unaffected by Republican propaganda – I do live and breathe in the US – but it is hardly a main sail.
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No, abagond, I don’t think you are secretly a Nazi/Republican. Just that if you were really honest with yourself you’d be able to admit that things have been getting worse for average Americans for many years (and that the people in early 1930s Germany and Italy could say the same thing). In a very real sense then, the past actually was better for most people. This is why Make America Great Again resonated with so many.
However, I suppose you could even acknowledge that and be unwilling to change your views on all the “progressive” steps that got us here, and you probably couldn’t even admit it was a direct consequence of “globalism’ and the increased power of the “cosmopolitan elites” referenced in your article.
What I’m talking about has nothing at all to do with “Republican propaganda”. The Republican establishment (e.g., the Bushes”) were just as happy as the Dems to get rich off globalism (e.g., massive kickbacks from foreign wars and aid) and they hate hate hate the populism that has arisen as a direct response to that.
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it is natural (human nature) to want to belong. Most of us imagine “to belong” in terms of “what does not belong”—inclusion/exclusion.
To belong to a family…one might need to be a blood relation, or membership must be according to approved criteria with, perhaps, some legal backing…..(marriages, guardianships…etc). Those included are family, those excluded are not family.
However….that (inclusion/exclusion binary) is not the only way to imagine “to belong”. One individual can belong to multiple groups and levels of groups….an individual can be a member of a family as well as a member of a nation….etc ….
So….one can consider that in its largest category—an individual belongs to the grouping called “humanity”. Such a pluralist paradigm of belonging might balance the excessive/toxic attachment issue that produces exceptionalism/hate
which becomes the backbone of a paradigm of division…..
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@ biff
This is a decidedly White point of view. One I do not share. And I doubt it is through any lack of honesty on my part.
For Black people in the US, in case you forget, it generally gets worse and worse the farther back you go, all the way to 1619. Periods of progress, like 1865-77 and 1954-68, are followed by periods of White backlash. And “progressives” and “cosmopolitan elites” are not the main villains of that piece.
See:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2021/06/10/white-rage/
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@ biff
When, exactly, was America “great”?
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abagond:
Rather than trying to pin down a specific time when America was “great” (which was not the central point I’m making), it’s more productive to ask when it was “better”.
Here I’m thinking of what a young person could reasonably expect in life, in terms of ability to live with dignity, raise a family, save for retirement, etc.
Someone 18 years old now has very bad prospects in that regard and they are only getting worse. Think housing cost vs. wages, cost of degree vs. benefit, ability to support a family, etc. Prospects were a bit better 10 years ago (check what cost of housing and education has done since then vs. wages), and even better 20 years ago and so on. You can easily go back at least 40 years that way, possibly more (you mentioned 1954-68). That wasn’t historically true in the US, and the decline in general standard of living/quality of life only really became evident this century.
It’s complicated by the fact that the country has been involved in some nasty wars, but the size and health of the middle class is a good indicator of general quality of life/health of the country and it has been shrinking quite a bit from around the 80s.
The elites barely talk about class issues anymore, because they want to protect their status and avoid focus on continually growing inequality. Instead, they try to shift more and more focus to grievance issues, but despite all the focus on those, whatever they’ve done hasn’t really made black people much better off or happier or having better families or life prospects (outside of some high level token diversity hires).
I guess I can’t expect a talented tenth boomer to understand how things are getting worse, but believe me most people feel it, even if they can’t put their finger on exactly what has happened.
The conditions for populism (which corresponds pretty well with this “mythic past” garbage in your post) don’t arise in a vacuum.
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From an economic/employment perspective, things have vastly deteriorated since the 50s.
The professional class can weather that better than the working class, and minorities/LGBT/White women (to a lesser extent) can feel compensated by the fact that their level of privilege and prestige in society has gone up.
But for straight, White, working-class men, it’s a lot harder to earn a decent living, and, if anything, they’ve seen their social prestige level go down.
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Paul Kruger:
At least in the US, I don’t think blacks are better off overall because of the economic changes that have taken place. Sure, some get high level jobs and join the upper class, but that’s not most people. Good paying factory jobs that used to support many stable black families are a thing of the past.
You can’t feed a family on perceived “prestige in society”.
Yet abagond apparently believes things are better than ever here, and anyone who claims otherwise is trafficking in “myths”.
We should listen to this guy, who got way more votes than Obama ever did and is the most popular president ever!
https://gab.com/Breaking911/posts/108432175664778488
“My plans have produced the strongest, fastest, most wide-spread economic recovery America has ever experienced—with record jobs, record small businesses and wages rising.”
Lolz!
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Biff – I agree with you. the average AfrAm is worse of financially than they were in the 60s, probably because of the massive number of out-of-wedlock births in the black community since LBJ’s “Great Society”
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@ biff
I am not saying that things are better than ever. That would be kind of nuts. But this idea of some lost golden age is a decidedly White perspective. That you cannot name when America was “great” – we tried to pin you down on this before – shows how mythic and Whitecentric it is.
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it’s 80%+ women working in stores, offices, once the trades are done with the installation…
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abagond:
I don’t think returning to a specific “golden age” is the point for Americans dissatisfied with the direction of the country (a huge majority in most recent polls). You can’t go back in time. You can only attempt to address, and maybe roll back, certain changes that have observably had a negative effect on the country.
I mean I wasn’t even alive in the 50s, so it’s hard for me to objectively evaluate that time period. From what I gather, life was pretty good for most Americans then (it was an ~85-90% White country at the time, so you can call that Whitecentric by default I suppose), though those in control of history recently have tried to demonize the time period for its supposed racism, conformity, etc.
Also, different groups of people experience different time periods differently. A recently retired boomer who already had a nice home might have thought the early 2010s were great–they got to feel like they saved the world by electing Obama and had limited exposure to the worsening economic situation–but for young people just starting out it was already pretty grim.
With all that said, roughly 1950-2000 seems to have been a very good (even “great”) run for the US. During most of that time period, MAGA wouldn’t have resonated very well with most Americans (I’m aware that Reagan and then Clinton used the phrase, following unpopular presidencies, but there was much less of a feeling that the country was in massive sustained decline then compared to recently).
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“With all that said, roughly 1950-2000 seems to have been a very good (even “great”) run for the US. During most of that time period, MAGA wouldn’t have resonated very well with most Americans (I’m aware that Reagan and then Clinton used the phrase, following unpopular presidencies, but there was much less of a feeling that the country was in massive sustained decline then compared to recently).”
The country has been in an economic decline since the 1970s, as far as the average worker is concerned. Stagflation where prices kept going up exponentially, then Reaganomics sent the deficit sky-high, the Farm Crisis of the 1980s where so many small family businesses went under. We were already losing factories well before NAFTA, but that accelerated the trend. Real average wages have been stagnant for over forty years: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/08/07/for-most-us-workers-real-wages-have-barely-budged-for-decades/
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@ biff
Ah yes! I remember the Crack Era in New York in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Crackheads walking down the street by day, gunfire by night. Truly a golden age! The air was better – but that was because most of the factories (and their jobs) had left for the Far East. And it was not just New York – Allentown too according to Billy Joel in his song in 1982 of that name:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHnJp0oyOxs)
And I am even old enough to remember that the 1970s were pretty grim too: divorce going through the roof, Watergate, the Fall of Saigon (or Liberation of Ho Chi Minh City), the energy crisis (two of them), the misery index (stagflation), predictions of apocalypse (nuclear, ecological, biblical, take your pick), etc. Oh, and nostalgia for the 1950s – thus the television show “Happy Days”. And none of that is specific to Black people.
And in the 1960s, people of your ilk (White conservatives) thought the US was falling apart. They still moan about it. There was not just protests by Black and young people, gasp, but the Sexual Revolution, drugs, high crime rates, hippies, draft dodging, race riots, assassinations (JFK, RFK, MLK, X), men wearing long hair (condemned by the Bible), the end of school prayer – and Kitty Genovese.
The Mythic Past never was. But conservatives, and especially reactionaries and fascists, find such beliefs politically useful.
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Solitaire:
For once, we’ll have to agree not to disagree. As I previously alluded to, the rot definitely started earlier than 2000, the effects just weren’t as evident before then.
abagond:
Yes, this is exactly why pointing to a specific “golden age” doesn’t make much sense. There were very bad things in all the decades from the 50s through the 90s no doubt. Still, it doesn’t change the fact (the point I have been making) that your long term prospects as a young person were much better in any of those decades than now. Far better to have a 1/1000 chance of dying in Korea, Vietnam or Iraq than the likelihood of having lifelong debt and the near certainty that, unless you’re born rich or pull off the equivalent of hitting the lottery, you’ll never enjoy be able to enjoy the American dream. Also, given the trajectory of the country, the 30s are likely to be much worse than the 20s (hopefully, we can all live to say I was wrong about that prediction, but I don’t think so.)
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@ Biff
“you’ll never enjoy be able to enjoy the American dream”
What is your definition of the American dream?
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Solitaire, different people would have different definitions. I suspect you are just looking for some way to quibble.
I suppose I’d define it as not being in perpetual debt, being able to get a good, steady job out of school that enabled you to buy a nice house and start having kids by around age 30 if not sooner, and then being able to live comfortably, send your kids to college, save for retirement, etc.
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@ Biff
“different people would have different definitions”
Of course, which is why I wanted to know which definition you meant. It seems to be the definition based entirely on material well-being. So now I know what you do and don’t include in your definition, and can proceed from there.
“I suppose I’d define it as not being in perpetual debt, being able to get a good, steady job out of school that enabled you to buy a nice house and start having kids by around age 30 if not sooner, and then being able to live comfortably, send your kids to college, save for retirement, etc.”
How exactly are the “depravities” you rail against stopping anyone from achieving this? For instance, how does legalizing same-sex marriage adversely affect anyone else’s ability to achieve the American dream?
Why has Europe — and particularly the Nordic nations — surpassed the USA in social class mobility?
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/ranked-the-social-mobility-of-82-countries/
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Solitaire:
“How exactly are the “depravities” you rail against stopping anyone from achieving this? For instance, how does legalizing same-sex marriage adversely affect anyone else’s ability to achieve the American dream?”
It doesn’t directly affect this in the same way that a cough doesn’t directly cause a fever. However, they are both symptoms of being sick. In this case, the economic decline and the increased prominence (largely facilitated by the media, university elites and globalist money) of sexual depravity are both results of the globalist (aka globohomo) agenda.
That agenda is designed to facilitate the accumulation and maintenance of wealth and power by a small elite. Shifting people’s attention onto racial divisions and grievances, same-sex marriage and now the supposed injustice of young transsexuals being denied the right to chop their junk off (and there will be further levels of sexual depravity of course, because it never ends unless it is forced to) takes peoples minds off of economic realities. It also weakens the nuclear family, which is the bulwark of traditional society and the biggest obstacle to the globalists. Young people who now don’t have a realistic shot at the traditional American dream can always reinvent themselves with an alternative sexual identity and maybe convince themselves they never really wanted to marry and have kids anyway.
The globalists hate Christians, and they have created an alternate religion, wherein they celebrate “diversity, inclusion and equity” (DIE) as the one and true god. By publicly worshiping and furthering DIE, they show themselves to have true virtue and are lauded in this world and allowed to accumulate all the wealth and power they want in the meantime. In this religion, someone who supports the castration of young boys whose parents identify them as “trans” is truly spiritual and virtuous, fighting against the evil hatred and “transphobia” of the uneducated.
As to your second question, from the link provided it appears that the countries with the highest social class mobility are largely homogenous high trust populations (though of course that is changing, even in the Nordic countries, and I think social mobility will decline as a result). Those are ideal for a true meritocracy and social mobility.
For some time, America has been moving away from that ideal. I can give an example. Many years ago, a relative of mine got a scholarship to attend Harvard through a program designed to bring in smart people from the Midwest from less wealthy families, who were underrepresented at the school. Nowadays, Harvard’s class may be something like 25% Asian, 25% Non-Asian Minorities, 25% Jewish, 10% White legacy/big money, 10% White athlete/big money and 5% other White. On its face the admissions office can say, hey it’s 50% White, that’s roughly in line with the total population. Meanwhile, no one gives a rip about the 5% “other White”, even though that category perhaps represents around 50% of the smart people who would get into Harvard in a pure meritocracy–that doesn’t stop people in that group from getting lectured about their supposed “White privilege” of course. Diversity is literally skin deep for these places. (The numbers will be off to some degree, but, from my recollection, they roughly gel with the report that Unz put out a few years back and my own research).
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@ Biff
“That agenda is designed to facilitate the accumulation and maintenance of wealth and power by a small elite. Shifting people’s attention onto racial divisions and grievances, same-sex marriage and now the supposed injustice of young transsexuals being denied the right to chop their junk off (and there will be further levels of sexual depravity of course, because it never ends unless it is forced to) takes peoples minds off of economic realities.”
Are you saying that there isn’t actually any movement from the grassroots to attain equal rights? Because that sure sounds like what you’re saying. That all minorities (whether racial, ethnic, religious, sexual, or gender) are being manipulated by a “small elite” and that without such manipulation they would not be organizing, protesting, pursuing legal cases for equal rights, etc.?
Also, in many cases, aren’t these efforts actually tied into economic realities? For instance, Black people wanting an end to unfair practices like redlining, or women wanting equal pay for equal work, or Native Americans wanting full control over the mineral resources on their reservations.
“It also weakens the nuclear family, which is the bulwark of traditional society and the biggest obstacle to the globalists.”
Why exactly would the globalists want to weaken the nuclear family? I don’t understand how that would be in their best interests.
“Young people who now don’t have a realistic shot at the traditional American dream can always reinvent themselves with an alternative sexual identity and maybe convince themselves they never really wanted to marry and have kids anyway.”
As long as same-sex marriage remains legal, they can and do get married, so your rationale here makes no sense. I already linked several sources on the Abagail Shrier thread about trans people having biological children. Lesbians and gay men are perfectly capable of having biological kids and have been doing so for decades, often by artificial insemination.
“The globalists hate Christians, and they have created an alternate religion, wherein they celebrate ‘diversity, inclusion and equity’ (DIE) as the one and true god.”
It’s ridiculous whenever you try to claim social justice movements are a religion. There are no churches or temples, no prayers, no religious services, established for a god named Diversity. (Many institutions word it as diversity, equity, and inclusion, so maybe you want to argue the acronym DEI is no coincidence? But other institutions use diversity, equity, and opportunity, or diversity, inclusion, and civil rights.)
“By publicly worshiping and furthering DIE, they show themselves to have true virtue and are lauded in this world and allowed to accumulate all the wealth and power they want in the meantime.”
How do you explain all the powerful and rich conservatives who work against equity and diversity? They’re also being allowed to accumulate wealth and power. And for that matter, who exactly is the one “allowing” or determining which individuals get to be rich and powerful? Who is rewarding these people for furthering diversity initiatives?
“In this religion, someone who supports the castration of young boys whose parents identify them as ‘trans’ is truly spiritual and virtuous, fighting against the evil hatred and ‘transphobia’ of the uneducated.”
No one is castrating young boys. Transition surgery is not being performed on children. Not all trans adults choose to have the surgery, either.
“As to your second question, from the link provided it appears that the countries with the highest social class mobility are largely homogenous high trust populations”
They’re also the countries with strong social safety nets, universal healthcare, and — especially in the Nordic nations — very high union membership.
“Many years ago, a relative of mine got a scholarship to attend Harvard through a program designed to bring in smart people from the Midwest from less wealthy families, who were underrepresented at the school…. Meanwhile, no one gives a rip about the 5% ‘other White’, even though that category perhaps represents around 50% of the smart people who would get into Harvard in a pure meritocracy”
Does that scholarship program still exist? What was it called?
It sounds like you’re saying that the recipients of this scholarship were only White people from the Midwest. Or was it open to any Midwesterner, including those who were Asian American? Because I went to college in the Midwest with a whole bunch of Asian Americans who were surely smart enough to get into Harvard but not able to afford it.
I hate to break it to you, but Harvard has never been a meritocracy. Throughout most of its history, it primarily accepted wealthy old-stock WASP men from elite New England boarding schools.
“that doesn’t stop people in that group from getting lectured about their supposed ‘White privilege’ of course.”
Is a scholarship to Harvard the only way that 5% can obtain a university education? Of course not. White students who are smart enough to get into Harvard are also smart enough to get into any other university and smart enough to win scholarships. There are many other prestigious top-ranked universities in this country that they can attend.
“Diversity is literally skin deep for these places.”
It sounds like you’re upset about the non-White students, when your beef should be this:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/17/harvard-university-students-smart-iq
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Solitaire:
I’m getting dragged into an extended multifront back and forth with you again, which, as I’ve explained at length, I’m not really interested in. I’ll try to give brief replies:
Sure there is some grass roots support for most of these movements, but they would go nowhere without media/big money support, especially stuff like “trans rights”, which no one had even heard of at the turn of the century.
Weakening the nuclear family makes more sense when you understand that the globalists are fundamentally anti-Christian and Nationalist Christians would be the most likely to stand up against their agenda.
Sure some LGBTQIAMF people their own have biological kids, but far fewer than normal people do.
I can’t even think of any rich and powerful conservatives standing up against LGBTQIAMF rot. Mike Lindell was interested in election fraud, but doesn’t seem to be a big social issues guy. Elon Musk made some vague conservative sounds a couple times but hasn’t done anything. People like the Koch brothers were worse than useless RINOs supporting neocon wars and big business. All the major corporations seem to be celebrating “pride month”, though most of the public is not interested in this at all. There are no billionaires openly supporting the dissident right that I’m aware of at all.
You gay, bruh?
No idea if said scholarship still exists or what it was called, but clearly priorities have shifted. Your quoted materials don’t mention “Jews”, so any talk about White representation without that is laughable. I had heard that all 8 Ivy League presidents were Jewish. I just did some quick research and it looks more like 6 to me (1 was recently replaced apparently), but still, at 2% of the population, what are the odds (hint: I get 0.000000001721037)?
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@ biff
I agree with this. I even did a post on it:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/11/08/the-southern-strategy/
The trans stuff (and critical race theory) is just the latest iteration of Republican fearmongering, but this stuff goes way back to the 1960s.
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@ biff
Oh really? You mean the same ones who gave us a billionaire president? Those people are going to stand up to the rich? They worship the rich! Their most famous preachers push a prosperity gospel. Christianity in the US is weak and corrupt. I advise you not to hold your breath.
If I am wrong, then please show me these US Christians who stand up to the rich.
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abagond:
Yes, absolutely. Trump was an unprecedented thorn in the side of the elites. That’s why they hated him so much (both establishment Dems and Republicans). The strongman/caudillo type is a populist antidote to an entrenched elite/bureaucracy. Trump wasn’t much of a strongman in practice, but that’s exactly what most of his voters wanted (someone to really clean house), and we’ll likely see more of it in coming years, as the US continues to decline. The decline will likely accelerate quickly at some point. If there was another way to get rid of the current bureaucracy/deep state, that would be great, but they generally don’t want to just give up their positions willingly, and they are not elected.
I don’t disagree that the mainstream churches in the US are largely weak and corrupt. I won’t say “Christianity”. For all Trump’s flaws, at least he wasn’t part of the corrupt elite selling out the country for personal gain, as Romney, McCain and the Bushes clearly were in retrospect.
Anyway, if you want to see a community of Christians who are not weak or corrupt (generally–none is perfect, except God himself), you can take a look at Gab. Not everyone there is Christian, but a solid majority seems to be. The community is not huge, but it’s growing and it’s uncensored and unfiltered, so a lot of useful ideas are cultivated there (the idea of creating a parallel economy outside of globohomo being a major one), which is why those in power would very much like to shut Gab down somehow.
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biff, America was never great.
If it wasn’t great for Foundational Black Americans then it wasn’t really ”great”.
This post by Abagond is speaking directly about people like you.
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It’s the same problematic thinking regarding what America was founded on.
According to the white perspective, America was founded on a ”democracy,” but how could it have been established that way when the samepeople establishing the country owed slaves who weren’t free to enjoy that supposed ”Democracy?”
NO! America was founded on STO, Slavery, Thievery and Opportunism!
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gab_(social_network)
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“Sure there is some grass roots support for most of these movements, but they would go nowhere without media/big money support”
Or could it be the exact opposite, that grassroots organizing and boycotts had an impact on the big-money corporations? For example:
https://web.archive.org/web/20120224224429/http://www.glbtq.com/social-sciences/boycotts,2.html
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Solitaire:
Bill was a royal blowhard and RINO type who never seemed to shut up. I think a lot of people were happy to taunt him, and I think that’s what those poll results were.
Some on Gab use the N word, usually in response to something like this ( https://nationalfile.com/video-black-man-brutally-assaults-arizona-cricket-wireless-employee/ ), but it’s not anywhere close to a majority. For a lot of the people that do, it’s just not letting that word have power anymore, such that one confirmed use can make someone unemployable and a reject from polite society forever. I’m personally not aware of any pastors who use that in their sermons, but if I voted in that survey (and I’m not sure if I did, I wouldn’t have voted “No” because that would have been giving in to the Narrative). It’s not about the word itself, if a pastor was using openly derogatory terms about anyone with the intention to insult (rather than teach), I don’t think many Christians would want any part of that. For the record, I’ve never been a part of, or even personally aware of any church that wouldn’t warmly welcome blacks who wanted to come there to worship.
There are a number of high profile blacks on Gab and they are actually more likely to have a featured comment (i.e., one that goes to the main page for non-members, based on recent comments with the most likes). But yeah, a lot of people there have pretty thick skin about being called the R word.
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Solitaire:
Pretty sure the boycotts you referenced had the support of the media and moneyed advocacy groups on the left. You also mentioned the NFL taking action in a boycott. That does the opposite of disproving my point.
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@ Biff
“Some on Gab use the N word, usually in response to something like this…, but it’s not anywhere close to a majority. For a lot of the people that do, it’s just not letting that word have power anymore, such that one confirmed use can make someone unemployable and a reject from polite society forever.”
Why would you recommend such a place to the denizens of this blog — people who are far more concerned about the power that word has when used against Blacks and other non-Whites? You seriously recommended a “Christian” community where the commenters freely use racial slurs?
“It’s not about the word itself, if a pastor was using openly derogatory terms about anyone with the intention to insult (rather than teach)”
That’s an interesting distinction. How can openly derogatory terms be used with the intention to teach?
“There are a number of high profile blacks on Gab and they are actually more likely to have a featured comment (i.e., one that goes to the main page for non-members, based on recent comments with the most likes).”
Of course their comments get featured:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/07/12/rented-negroes/
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/11/25/internalized-racism/
“Pretty sure the boycotts you referenced had the support of the media and moneyed advocacy groups on the left.”
The mainstream media were hostile and mocking in the 1970s when they covered LGBTQ issues. AIDS coverage in the 1980s was abysmal. Can you give me an example of a “moneyed advocacy group on the left”? Bonus points if your example existed in 1973.
“You also mentioned the NFL taking action in a boycott. That does the opposite of disproving my point.”
The NFL took that particular action because they thought not doing so would harm their image. That doesn’t mean the NFL had anything to do with coming up with the idea or issuing the call for a boycott. Also, the NFL didn’t fully join the boycott or else they would have shut down in Arizona entirely. They just moved the Super Bowl to a different state; they didn’t ban NFL games from being played in Arizona during the regular season, nor did they kick the Cardinals out of the league.
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Solitaire:
We’re now like 100% off the original topic.
You didn’t even answer my question re: you being gay or, if you prefer, LGBTQIADMF (I left out Dragonkin before). Just trying to understand why you have such an interest in the topic.
The response was a direct response to a question from abagond. Yes, I’d recommend people venture to see other things outside of their comfort zones, the same way I can come here and see White demonization and LGBTQIADMF+ propaganda–I kid, that’s everywhere now. 😊
Haven’t seen progressive movements making significant progress without strong media cover that I can ever remember. If it truly happened with strong media opposition in the 70s that would be news to me, but would show that the 70s media was much less broken than the non-stop leftist propaganda the media has become now.
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@ Biff
No, I’m not gay. Why should that matter? Only gays are allowed to have an interest in the topic?
“We’re now like 100% off the original topic.”
My responses were entirely follow-ups to your comments.
“You didn’t even answer my question”
You didn’t answer several of mine.
“The response was a direct response to a question from abagond.”
You told Abagond that Gab was a community of Christians who are neither weak or corrupt. Is using derogatory racial slurs a sign of strength and purity?
“Yes, I’d recommend people venture to see other things outside of their comfort zones”
You appear to mistakenly believe people here don’t already do that. I know we discussed that in detail and at length about two years ago, so I don’t see the point in rehashing it.
“Haven’t seen progressive movements making significant progress without strong media cover that I can ever remember.”
Things never start out that way. Progressive movements are usually ridiculed in the media, often for decades, before gaining traction. I’ve seen it with my own eyes in other situations besides LGBTQ rights. The controversy over Native American mascots is another example — absolutely horrendous racist media coverage the first couple decades, only gradually becoming less biased and more even-handed around the turn of the millennium. Look at historical movements: abolitionists originally got tons of negative press in the North as well as the South. Both first- and second-wave feminists were routinely mocked and ridiculed by the leading newspapers and mainstream media. I can’t think of a single progressive reform movement where the grassroots didn’t spend many years dealing with overwhelmingly negative press.
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Solitaire:
You just have a great interest in the topic of LGBTQIA2SDMF+ (I realize I’ve been forgetting 2 spirit, and I apologize to the Indigenous people reading this for that). This post had nothing to do with it originally.
We know the world reserves its worst punishment for people who are deemed to be the R word. So yes standing up against the world is a sign of strength and purity. I don’t think most of the minority of people who actual use that terminology frequently consider themselves to be active Christians, but the gab community is one that prioritizes free speech not what happens to be a current fad in the world.
“People here”. You mean you and abagond? Used to be many more regulars. Wonder what happened to them all.
Once again you proved my initial point as these movements languish for many years until the media and big money gets behind them.
“Sure there is some grass roots support for most of these movements, but they would go nowhere without media/big money support”
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@ Biff
“This post had nothing to do with it originally.”
I beg to differ. Abagond talks in this post about “traditional values and gender roles…. when men were men and women were women!” Also, Cherry Boy told you upthread, “This post by Abagond is speaking directly about people like you.” I will go farther than that and say it’s obvious Abagond wrote this post as a direct response to your stance on the Abagail Shrier thread.
“We know the world reserves its worst punishment for people who are deemed to be the R word.”
Its worst punishment: Torture? Execution?
“So yes standing up against the world is a sign of strength and purity.”
Does Jesus want you to be racist?
The world also wants you to obey traffic lights and not drive drunk. Do you regularly stand up against the world by getting drunk and blowing through red lights as a sign of your Christian strength and purity?
“I don’t think most of the minority of people who actual use that terminology frequently consider themselves to be active Christians”
But here you are, a Christian defending it.
You side-stepped my actual question. I ask again: Is using derogatory racial slurs a sign of Christian strength and purity?
“Once again you proved my initial point as these movements languish for many years until the media and big money gets behind them.”
You misunderstood my point. The movements don’t languish until suddenly the media and big money do an about-face for some unknown reason. The movements put in the work to get their message out there without the backing of the mainstream media and big money. The movements convince more people and gain more supporters; their numbers grow through their own hard work. The mainstream media doesn’t change its tune until there’s already a groundswell of public support. I realize this doesn’t fit your conspiracy theory about (((globalists))) who control the world, but it’s historically accurate.
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Solitaire:
“I will go farther than that and say it’s obvious Abagond wrote this post as a direct response to your stance on the Abagail Shrier thread.”
Awww. Stop it. You’re making me blush.
“Its worst punishment: Torture? Execution?”
OK, for people who aren’t like actual criminals. Becoming unemployable and cast out of society forever and maybe stalked and beaten up–they may try to lock up/torture/execute thought criminals here soon enough. It’s happened in many other countries.
The Bible says, “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” Racial groups are extended family.
Ridiculous questions get ridiculous answers.
Agree to disagree re: whether these movements can take off without media and big money. If and when the media finally starts supporting Minor Attracted Persons, showing daily specials about poor MAPs subject to abuse and contemplating suicide for a common predilection completely outside of their control that they swear they will never act upon, you’ll find many more people “coming out” and it will become trendy to support them the way that charities who castrate confused young boys are trendy now (20+ years ago it too would have been unthinkable. People used to think folks like this were mentally ill– https://www.instagram.com/p/CeJ3xnlhJIN/?utm_source=ig_embed&ig_rid=74d12add-2804-4281-829c-ebb04911fb4f Now they must be “celebrated” 😂 🤡 🤡 🤡 ).
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@ Biff
“Becoming unemployable and cast out of society forever and maybe stalked and beaten up”
To whom has this happened? Names, please.
“The Bible says, ‘But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.'”
We were discussing derogatory racial slurs. How does the above quote condone the use of racial slurs?
“Racial groups are extended family.”
Considering that the next several verses of 1 Timothy 5 are about the maintenance of widows within the local Christian community, your interpretation here seems to be quite a stretch.
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Solitaire:
Anyone openly on the dissident right for starters. People like Andrew Anglin or Vox Day could never get normal jobs and have many who are out to get them. Happens to normal people too in terms of becoming disemployed if they make one questionable FB post that a woke HR person doesn’t like https://gab.com/PhilosopherAnonymous/posts/108430769408307623 Naming names of ordinary folks is just likely to result in more abuse for them. Asking for that is really shameful.
“And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. 23But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. 24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 25Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. 26But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs. 27And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table. 28Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.”
I include the last two verses since they provide context. However, please note calling people “dogs” was not a great compliment in the ancient Near East. One can support one’s own people first and still treat others reasonably, fairly and even generously.
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@ Biff
“Anyone openly on the dissident right for starters. People like Andrew Anglin or Vox Day could never get normal jobs and have many who are out to get them.”
No, we were talking specifically about the use of derogatory racial slurs such as the n-word, not about leaders of the alt-right who have done way more, who spread hate every day, who have fawning sycophants devoted to them and supporting them financially.
“Naming names of ordinary folks is just likely to result in more abuse for them. Asking for that is really shameful.”
I didn’t ask you for that. Surely you can provide examples from prominent celebrities or high-profile court cases.
Speaking of ordinary folks, that HR employee you linked to is apparently just an ordinary person, too, who has already been doxxed from what I’m reading online and is already being investigated for breach of professional conduct. A drunk TikTok posting doesn’t prove anything about the entire HR profession. And one questionable TikTok post by a “woke” HR person can also get that individual fired. The irony here is of her warning people to be careful what they put on social media when she’s probably going to have to leave the HR industry based on one social media post.
“Happens to normal people too in terms of becoming disemployed if they make one questionable FB post that a woke HR person doesn’t like”
One HR person’s ill-advised drunk TikTok post does not prove anything.
“I include the last two verses since they provide context. However, please note calling people ‘dogs’ was not a great compliment in the ancient Near East.”
I don’t see that Jesus called her a dog. I see him using a metaphor, as he often did, and she replied using the same metaphor. If you’re going to try to argue that he actually called her a dog, you have to explain why she then calls herself a dog, too.
Also, what race did Jesus belong to when he walked the earth?
“One can support one’s own people first and still treat others reasonably, fairly and even generously.”
Again, we were talking specifically about derogatory racial slurs. How is calling someone the n-word treating them reasonably, fairly, and generously?
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Solitaire:
Now you are just wasting both of our time again. If you believe people wouldn’t get fired in our current culture for using the N word or similar language, I don’t know what to say. People get fired for much less, e.g., John Gruden or this guy: https://www.thecity.nyc/2022/2/24/22949146/racist-tweet-columbia-psychiatry-chair-jeffrey-lieberman-new-york-medical-elite
I’m not going to waste time arguing stuff like that.
“Again, we were talking specifically about derogatory racial slurs. ”
No, “we” were not. You asked a very stupid question. “Is using derogatory racial slurs a sign of Christian strength and purity?” No, of course not. Just like using the F bomb isn’t a sign of strength or purity, but it doesn’t mean you disown everyone who has ever done so.
You also asked “Does Jesus want you to be racist?” And I think that’s also a BS question, because there’s no separate sin of “racism” outlined in the Bible. Taking care of one’s own people first is the clear norm. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t show compassion to others.
I wouldn’t presume to be able to tell with certainty what Jesus meant by comparing non-Jews to dogs, but I guess it was designed to be, and perceived as, somewhat offensive by the hearers. If a White person specifically compared a non-White group of people to “dogs” today, I believe it would be deemed to have “racist” connotations. Jesus was pretty obviously testing, and giving an opportunity for this woman to show, her resilience and her faith. By accepting the dog comparison, she humbled herself and showed her great faith.
For a White person, the R word is about the worst anyone can throw at them, as it implies they are an evil sinner in the DIE religion and potentially gets them fired and unable to support their family. Yet that doesn’t stop me from having to see the word all the time, including in places like this. Life goes on if someone somewhere who is not black uses the N word on a social media platform and is not immediately banned.
Anyway, I think we are about done here. There’s really nothing more productive to say. I’m arguing with someone who supports LGBTQIA2SDMF+ and obviously follows the DIE religion of the Western elites, rather than Christianity.
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@ Biff
“If you believe people wouldn’t get fired in our current culture for using the N word or similar language, I don’t know what to say.”
Now you’re backpedaling. What you said earlier was not simply being fired — it was “Becoming unemployable and cast out of society forever and maybe stalked and beaten up.” That’s what I asked you to provide an example of. But you can’t because it was an over-the-top exaggeration, the type that goes without challenge on the White Supremacist websites you frequent.
“You asked a very stupid question. ‘Is using derogatory racial slurs a sign of Christian strength and purity?’ No, of course not. Just like using the F bomb isn’t a sign of strength or purity, but it doesn’t mean you disown everyone who has ever done so.”
Do you allow them to continue without comment? Your choice isn’t limited to utter disownment or silent acquiescence, is it?
This is what you told Abagond:
“Anyway, if you want to see a community of Christians who are not weak or corrupt (generally–none is perfect, except God himself), you can take a look at Gab.”
But I’ve been reading both the Gab posts and the comments on those posts. I’m seeing virulent racism and antisemitism, tons of profanity, calls for violence including murder — and I’m not seeing any Christians responding to this sinful hatred the way that Christians are called to do.
“Taking care of one’s own people first is the clear norm.”
You’re ignoring the Great Commission. Jesus may have been born to minister to Israel, but he died for everyone, and he told his disciples to go out unto all the nations, to no longer make any distinction between Jew and Gentile.
“Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t show compassion to others.”
You mean the compassion for others that I’m seeing on Gab?
“I wouldn’t presume to be able to tell with certainty what Jesus meant by comparing non-Jews to dogs, but I guess it was designed to be, and perceived as, somewhat offensive by the hearers. If a White person specifically compared a non-White group of people to ‘dogs’ today, I believe it would be deemed to have ‘racist’ connotations. Jesus was pretty obviously testing, and giving an opportunity for this woman to show, her resilience and her faith. By accepting the dog comparison, she humbled herself and showed her great faith.”
Or perhaps Jesus used the dog comparison because he knew how his disciples thought about non-Jews, and he wanted this incident to help open their eyes, to prepare them for their future work of preaching to the Gentiles.
“For a White person, the R word is about the worst anyone can throw at them”
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/02/24/the-r-word/
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2015/08/12/white-fragility/
“as it implies they are an evil sinner in the DIE religion”
“Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion” is a title often used for corporate and collegiate departments that specialize in such work. It is not a religion. It does not utilize the concepts of evil and sinners.
“Yet that doesn’t stop me from having to see the word all the time, including in places like this.”
Abagond writes frequently about race issues, as you are well aware. You have no reason to expect his blog to be free of the words “racist” or “racism,” considering his subject matter.
“Life goes on if someone somewhere who is not black uses the N word on a social media platform and is not immediately banned.”
You’re smart enough to know that isn’t the issue, but how the continual use of derogatory racial slurs contributes to racist mindsets that can cause real and lasting harm.
“Anyway, I think we are about done here.”
Promise?? I’m sure your fellow edgelords miss you over on Gab, so why don’t you run along now.
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Solitaire:
You’re being ridiculous and you sound like a 3rd grader in this post. Of course the people I mentioned can’t just get comparable jobs after their public transgressions, and it would be much worse for someone who had used the N-word. It’s dishonest of you to pretend otherwise.
If you understand that DIE is in fact the official state religion of the West, everything else makes so much more sense. Racist, sexist, homophobe and transphobe, etc. take the place of “sinner” obviously.
I believe the DIE mindset causes real and lasting harm. As discussed in responses to this post, the US was much better for most people in the past when the US was less controlled by DIE (DIE for instance takes peoples minds off real class inequality/injustice that they can and should address, while DIE will never be satisfied). DIE is a false god, just like the BLM movement is a lie, because they literally promote policies (like lax policing and jail terms) that have directly resulted in thousands of more blacks being killed, as evidenced by official statistics, aka “science”.
I’m not going to apologize for some possibly objectionable things on Gab any more than you’re going to apologize for anti-White or anti-Christian stuff on other platforms.
I’m not saying I won’t post on abagond’s site anymore. Just that I find the repeated back and forth between only the two of us, which is now only tangentially related to the original post, to be a waste of time and energy, and it seems if I don’t make an effort to cut it off it never ends (you have shown that you will never do so).
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Well idk how off topic this biff thread is but back in the day I just get the feeling many gays who were outed would have pistol whipped and dumped in a field across the state line. I guess that was when it was ‘great’. I thought or rather think the mythic past was around 2000. That all not withstanding, and as much as I am loathe to agree with biff, I feel he has a point about let’s call it — for simplicity’s sake — the gay agenda. I gotta switch to my computer for this one
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i dont remember when gay marriage came out (no pun intended); but I think I was still reading the newspaper pretty much. It seemed like it took forever, that was the ‘milestone’ or touchpoint? and then adoption rights, with various courts blocking it and so forth. My personal take is the gay rights movement definitely stood on the shoulders of the civil rights movement, in the us. It’s definitely morphed now. So fast forward I remember the first news article I saw that was tangential to this was idk i guess something in sex ed? about homosexuality, in CA i believe. And the public backlash, it seems tame now compared to let’s say the truckers shutting down ottowa? is there a bohemian grove backchannel? most likely. the globalist thing? i’m just like worry about the banks that are just letting houses sit idle and letting people sleep in the streets, she’s going off now put a pin in it
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I think the root of the “problem” is Nationalism/Zionism. Both ideas declare that a particular piece of land is ONLY for a particular “people”—those that “belong” and those that don’t.
“Advocates of Zionism view it as a national liberation movement for the repatriation of a persecuted people to its ancestral homeland. Anti-Zionists view it as a colonialist, racist, or exceptionalist ideology or movement.”—Wiki
The idea that an artificial and often arbitrary “boundary” and some abstract and mythically constructed idea of “national-culture” and/or other identity-marker gives “authority” to belong or not —-needs critique?
……this does not mean we need to get rid of the (human need/right) to have an identity—it simply means we need to rethink what it means to have multiple identities and diversify/broaden our perspectives…….
If “Nation/National identity” are constructed myths—its ok to re-evaluate what makes a “nation” and what makes a “national-identity”—particularly in terms of the “human rights”—that earth belongs to all humanity equally and equitably…..
A non-zero-sum perspective is the only way for humanity to survive and flourish going forward.,..one reason— because that is what our DNA demands—If white people become isolationist, racists and zionists (white nation)….then they will eventually perish anyway because DNA requires genetic diversity. As it is, our genetic diversity, as a species, is low to begin with…..
If the “white” community has a “problem”—then those “members” in that community must make the effort to counter toxic ideologies—it is a responsibility they MUST shoulder….
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jun/11/far-right-activists-britain-white-jihadists-neo-nazi-national-action-jailed
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@ anon
“As it is, our genetic diversity, as a species, is low to begin with…..”
That’s a very good point.
To add some context about just how low it is:
https://phys.org/news/2018-05-special-humanity-tiny-dna-differences.html
https://www.science.org/content/article/how-we-lost-our-diversity
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To Abagond:
“Strong, happy patriarchal families: when men were men and women were women! Men bravely fought in wars, women knew their place and were devoted mothers. Families were not falling apart like they are now as people abandon traditional gender roles. Fascist leaders need to glorify strong patriarchal families – where whatever the father says goes – to make their own hierarchy and authoritarianism seem.”
Since the book came out in 2018 many of the reviews on Amazon equate Trump to fascism, who ironically the first US President to endorse gay marriage before he entered office. (Trump is a demagogue and narcissist but calling him fascist when a substantial of journalist and pundits derived their living (Still) by attacking him suggests otherwise).
Did the author mention China, Russian, or North Korea..? Certainly all of the above are more fascistic than democratic Poland, Japan, or the US
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To Biff,
You think Hitler rose to power because of “myths”?
Yes, he repeatedly would turn on allies, co/op, or side step them when it was expedient. The most clear example was the Brown shirts whose leadership he liquidated in the Night of long knives. Most assuredly the man was manipulative, devious and deceptive.
All those pictures of the excesses/depravities of Weimar Germany, along with the wheelbarrows full of money to buy groceries, must have been photoshopped. Yes, Jews played a disproportionate role in wrecking Weimar Germany..
BS the hyperinflation certainly destabilized Germany (a decade before Hitler rose to power) but it was caused war reparations and the occupation of the Ruhr by France.
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To Abagond:
“Families were not falling apart like they are now as people abandon traditional gender roles.”
Well…. most assuredly the National Socialists activity sought to undermine traditional Christian teaching. They set up youth camps (Men and Women in their teens) of opposite genders located near other and encouraged the sexes to fraternize freely. No surprise there were quite a few pregnancies out of wedlock… but.. no problem since they were “Good Aryan youth” — the girls weren’t unmarried — they were married to National Socialism… yes seriously this was encouraged by Hitler and his boys. (However, the conservative elements of Germany strongly objected). Quite a few births in the 30s before the war started with the goal of producing “Aryans” loyal to Germany and not their families (Or at least Germany came before their family). The National Socialists were not traditionalists.
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To Abagond:
Sorry my responses were a bit rambling, tried to find some lengthy excerpts of the book via Google but didn’t find anything. Without reading the book, I’m just speculating.
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Hey Lemmy:
“You think Hitler rose to power because of “myths”?
Yes, he repeatedly would turn on allies, co/op, or side step them when it was expedient.”
Sure, he wasn’t a super nice guy and his movement definitely used and turned on people to get to power. However, that has nothing to do with the supposed “myths”. The point is people’s lives really were bad at that time (and really were better in the past) so they went with a radical guy who promised to burn things down.
“BS the hyperinflation certainly destabilized Germany (a decade before Hitler rose to power) but it was caused war reparations and the occupation of the Ruhr by France.”
Yes, I’m aware of the war and ridiculous reparations. The history books basically just tell you that. They don’t tell you about other things that happened in Weimar Germany For example: https://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=80636
Do you think Jews were just a super convenient scapegoat and there was no real reason at all that they were targeted? That’s what the history books would tell us again. The official Narrative also says “White” people control way too much, but won’t talk about Jewish control at all. It’s strange that way. It won’t follow things to their logical conclusions.
Anyway, the main point was that, yes, things were really bad at that time in Germany, so it wasn’t “myths” of a better past that motivated people… it was reality. And yes, things are really going downhill quickly in the US. It’s not your imagination.
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why is the monty python lumberjack song in my head
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@anon yeah it’s great listening to black israelites or her brother who feels black ppl indigenously own the us and we should all be processed and sent, per dna tests to the country we ‘belong’ to eg ireland, i mean yes, the wars and so forth happened, now what
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her brother is a ex-christian mystic non-muslim ‘proper person’ ie no ss# or DL. it’s so much fun listening to speeches
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i think hours and hours of listening to dr umar johnson and elijah mohommed pretty much inured me? idk.
malcolm x i could listen to he never said umm too much and had the rapport and also leading them to an idea,
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To Biff,
Sure, he wasn’t a super nice guy and his movement definitely used and turned on people to get to power. However, that has nothing to do with the supposed “myths”. The point is people’s lives really were bad at that time (and really were better in the past) so they went with a radical guy who promised to burn things down.
The hyperinflation occurred less than years before Hitler’s rise to power and the Great Depression was ongoing when he came to power. Both events were clearly tied to the post WWI settlements imposed by the allies. (Germany was struck particularly hard by the Depression since US banks started recalling their loans granted to help with WWI reparation due to the financial calamity in the US). The Mythic Past referenced in the book refers to a more distance time period for Italy / Rome for Turkey / the Ottoman Empire – not sure when Germany’s mythic past existed in the author’s mind but I suspect it predated WWI.
They don’t tell you about other things that happened in Weimar Germany For example: https://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=80636
Do you think Jews were just a super convenient scapegoat and there was no real reason at all that they were targeted?
Repudiation of the German monarchy came about because of the blunders the Kaiser made (Invading neutral Belgium which brought Britain into the war on the side of France and eventually the US).
Part of the so called decadence brought about by the Weimar Republic was lowering the voting age from 25 to 20 and allowing women to vote. The 1920s throughout much of the Western world was a time of relative decadence and widespread adoption of new technologies (Widespread use of radio and photographs).
As for burlesque in the 1920s in Germany.. well… Burlesque shows were popular in Britain, US, and France starting in the 19th century – not sure when things started for Burlesque in the Germany but I suspect it wasn’t just because of Jews.
Prostitution during WWI was managed at the front by the German military so it’s not like brothels were a new institution brought about by Jews in Germany in the 1920s.
The US reaction to naughty movies was the Hays Code and Burlesque shows were progressively curtailed in the 1930s – Not the wholesale condemnation and persecution of a group of people were overrepresented in those industries.
On a tangential note, Presumably you believe leftist Jews currently have an outsized negative influence in the US … but the reaction to leftism in the US is over also represented by Jews on the right (Ben Shapiro (Daily Wire) Dennis Praeger (Praeger U), Rebel News founders in Canada, Breitbart, Ron Unz, David Horowitz.
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To Biff:
Do you think Jews were just a super convenient scapegoat and there was no real reason at all that they were targeted?
Well, I’ll turn this around…support for BLM in the US was at 67% in June of 2020. Using the same logic since the majority approved of BLM’s platform would you also agree with the majority..? For that matter if were are going by the majority’s opinion would you feel comfortable discussing your politics on… well practically any US college campus…?
The US reigned in some of the excesses of 20s with legislation, Germany’s reaction was to strip the rights and property of one ethnic group of their rights and eventually liquidating the ones who did not leave the country. Which do you think chose the wiser path?
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To Biff,
In my first post to you:
(Widespread use of radio and photographs).
Should read:
(Widespread use of radio and phonographs).
Although both technologies existed before, the 1920s saw widespread adoption of both technologies (As well as the automobile).
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Lemmy:
With all due respect, you sound like a standard issue, government approved history book.
“The Mythic Past referenced in the book refers to a more distance time period for Italy / Rome for Turkey / the Ottoman Empire – not sure when Germany’s mythic past existed in the author’s mind but I suspect it predated WWI.”
Who cares? I didn’t read the book and won’t. I’m simply making the point that the most important issue, then as now, is that people could tell things had gotten much worse. Just like Trump didn’t explicitly and repeatedly reference the 50s or 90s as if he was spreading some “myths”. It is just that people can tell we have been on the wrong track and things have gotten much worse.
Speaking as if what happened in Germany was just some risque “burlesque shows” indicates you really aren’t getting it. And mentioning Ben Shapiro, Dennis Praeger, etc. as if they were counter examples also shows you don’t get it. They support massive third world immigration for America, but shockingly not for Israel. On the right, they function as gatekeepers. Unz, who is fine with massive Latin American immigration apparently, at least is honest about the Jews generally and I give him a lot of credit (and highly recommend his American Pravda series), but he’s in a very small minority. A lot of Jews are nice and personable and most aren’t actively plotting to destroy the traditional US, but that doesn’t mean that Jews as a whole, because of those who are in positions of power, aren’t having that effect.
I don’t think the majority ever supported BLM’s platform. They never wanted to get rid of police, they just thought it was bad that a police officer kneeled on a black guy’s neck, as they were shown this repeatedly out of context. As they saw all the rioting and increased violence, many realized BLM was fundamentally an evil organization. If the media did its job and presented Floyd as the inveterate criminal and drug user that he really was, someone who was threatening officers’ lives by violently and repeatedly resisting arrest, instead of trying to present him as a martyr, people would have been a lot less sympathetic (though the police officer could still potentially have been convicted of something). If they regularly explained that the number of unarmed blacks killed by police is miniscule compared to the number of blacks who die when police are not very actively policing their neighborhoods people would understand the situation better. This is why control of means of propaganda is so important.
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” If the media did its job and presented Floyd as the inveterate criminal and drug user that he really was, someone who was threatening officers’ lives by violently and repeatedly resisting arrest…”
Still doubling down on falsehoods, huh?
George Floyd was arrested and handcuffed without incident after alledgedly passing a single counterfeit $20 bill. Passing counterfeit money is a non-violent “crime”. We still don’t know if Floyd was aware the bill was counterfeit or not.
Moreover, Floyd was handcuffed the entire time the police assaulted him in broad daylight and in public view.
So much for the “threatening officers’ lives by violently and repeatedly resisting arrest” Black Brute stereotype falsehood the rightwing likes to invoke in this case and other similar cases.
But then, right-wingers never let facts (even facts that can be verified by video) get in the way of false narratives.
False narratives, repetition of false narratives and ever expanding false narratives are just a few ways right-wingers keep themselves hopped up on anger and resentment, their drugs of choice.
Not all drugs are swallowed, snorted, smoked or injected into the physical body.
Pervasive propaganda also functions as a drug for the mind and spirit.
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Afrofem:
It’s not black brute stereotype. This guy literally shoved a gun at a pregnant woman’s stomach when he was breaking into her house. Most societies in human history would execute him for that. You know that’s true, but you still defend him.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPSwqp5fdIw&t=518s)
I found this in 2 minutes. Yes, he was resisting going into the car for many minutes. What’s sad is the drugs he had (likely ingested to avoid having the cops et them) were already clearly killing him. He’s saying he can’t breathe and that he’s dying while he’s standing up outside of the car (without anyone putting a knee on his neck).
I mean it’s a bit sad for. him, but he did it to himself, and it’s absolutely tragic for the cops whose lives were ruined because of his terrible behavior and the thousands who died in the aftermath of the riots propaganda about his death caused (including increased death rates in largely black areas in the following year–who would want to be a cop and have to deal with that crap on a daily basis–can’t even force a guy who is arrested into a car now).
Anyway, that’s def. off topic, but needed to respond to your false narrative.
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I will post a response tomorrow…
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Thanks for the update, Afrofem. Will try to survive till then. Can’t wait to go more off topic re: George Floyd. I’m not trying to say the officers involved handled things the very best way. Maybe they should have sedated Floyd with a tranquilizer dart or something if he wouldn’t get into the car after a long long time of trying to convince him to do so. Or maybe they should just let criminals who don’t want to be arrested walk away and deal with the massive increased crime and death that would cause.
The point I was trying to make is just that the media could have presented the case in a much more reasonable, measured way and saved thousands of lives– mostly black lives, which you pretend to care about. https://www.unz.com/isteve/black-homicide-deaths-went-up-53-during-george-floyd-era/. This shows ~3000 excess black deaths in just the 7 months after Floyd repeatedly resisted arrest, and the effects of the media’s propaganda re: Floyd almost certainly will last much much longer and result in the deaths of many more thousands of blacks. Black lives matter. Why does Floyd’s matter to you so much more than these thousands of other black people?
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biff,
My response is on the George Floyd thread.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2020/05/29/george-floyd/comment-page-1/#comment-593659
I don’t want to highjack this thread with more off topic comments.
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biff,
My response is on the George Floyd thread:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2020/05/29/george-floyd/comment-page-1/#comment-593659
I don’t want to highjack this thread with more off topic comments.
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@ Biff
“A lot of Jews are nice and personable and most aren’t actively plotting to destroy the traditional US, but that doesn’t mean that Jews as a whole, because of those who are in positions of power, aren’t having that effect.”
So who exactly are these Jews in positions of power who actively plot to destroy the traditional US?
How does one tell the difference between those Jews and the nice personable Jews who aren’t actively plotting destruction?
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Lemmy wrote:
“Prostitution during WWI was managed at the front by the German military so it’s not like brothels were a new institution brought about by Jews in Germany in the 1920s.”
And the Nazis did the same thing, including forcing into prostitution both Christian women from occupied countries and Jewish women in the camps.
https://www.spiegel.de/international/nazi-sex-slaves-new-exhibition-documents-forced-prostitution-in-concentration-camps-a-459704.html
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_military_brothels_in_World_War_II
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Solitaire:
Do you want me to post more giant pics showing Jews controlling the media and the Biden administration? (I already did the media in a different thread– Here’s a very high level one for the Biden cabinet: https://i.warosu.org/data/biz/img/0274/09/1612217385042.jpg –One could easily find others–but key question is why one small group comprising about 2% of the US population would have a majority of the senior cabinet positions in an administration that supposedly values “diversity”?)
Of course you have to get to know individuals, but the ones in positions of massive power generally got there by exploiting their network/connections and usually don’t have the best of intentions.
Agree that the Nazis were not blameless and yes it’s typical for conquering people to force subjugated races into prostitution. The Jews did it with German women in Weimar Germany. The Germans did it with conquered people in WWII and the Allies did it with conquered people during and after WWII (though they won’t publicly admit it because they get to write the history books).
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@ Biff
“Do you want me to post more giant pics showing Jews controlling the media and the Biden administration?”
No, because those giant pics don’t prove that there’s a Jewish conspiracy to destroy the traditional US. Are you saying that every single person of Jewish descent who works in media or government is part of this conspiracy? What is your proof for that?
“the ones in positions of massive power generally got there by exploiting their network/connections”
And how is that any different from the WASP Old Boy Network?
“and usually don’t have the best of intentions.”
You’ve shown absolutely no proof about what their intentions are.
“Agree that the Nazis were not blameless”
Upthread you said the Nazis were reacting against the debauchery of Weimar Germany. One would think in that case, prostitution would have been a moral evil they wanted to abolish, not something they promoted as a health measure for German soldiers. Another example of their questionable morality is the Lebensborn program, where unmarried women were encouraged to get pregnant with “Aryan” children, and small children who appeared “racially pure” were forcibly separated from their parents and in most cases never reunited:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensborn
“it’s typical for conquering people to force subjugated races into prostitution. The Jews did it with German women in Weimar Germany.”
I was unaware that WWI was fought between the Germans and the Jews. I thought Germany was conquered by the Allied Powers, primarily Great Britain, France, and the United States.
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Pornography was not something new in the Weimar Republic but in fact had been rampant in Germany from the mid-1800s on:
https://scholarworks.gvsu.edu/hst_articles/21/
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So we’re back at it again, huh Solitaire? It’s a shocking result. Absolutely unforeseeable. You jump back in and ask a couple seemingly inquisitive questions, but somehow you’re never happy with the answers and raise 5 other things.
There doesn’t have to be an open conspiracy for there to be effective cooperation. You think the control by the 2% is just a coincidence?
When the US supermajority was WASP, WASP control would be expected. No one asks why Hindus control India or Muslims control Pakistan and Bangladesh. 2-3% minority control only happens through massive subversion.
Now I have to show proof of Jewish intentions? What do people typically do (especially in low trust societies) when they get power?–they try to benefit themselves/their people. Western Whites (non-Jewish) have relatively higher trust and are therefore more apt to cooperate, and share benefits, among different groups, and that helped them a lot in the past, but now has gotten them into the current predicament where most don’t even realize why their civilization is dying and things are getting so much worse…. You think Jews are doing blacks a favor by (mostly) supporting BLM and getting thousands more blacks killed every year because of it? You think the extreme financilization of the economy has been great for the US? Why yes, yes you do.
Anyway, I’m not getting back into this with you. I never said the Nazis were great folks or some example of morality, just that the situation was so screwed up, and people so fed up with the then current system and scared of communism being even worse that they let the Nazis get into power. I’ve made the points I wanted to and the perceptive reader can consider them and your counterarguments.
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@ Biff
“Now I have to show proof of Jewish intentions?”
You haven’t explained what it is you believe they plan to do besides the nebulous “destroy the traditional US.” No details about what that actually would entail; no explanation about how it would possibly be in their interest to destroy their own nation.
“What do people typically do (especially in low trust societies) when they get power?–they try to benefit themselves/their people. Western Whites (non-Jewish) have relatively higher trust”
Okay, the problem with your rationale here is that in sociological terms the USA is a high-trust society, which goes across the board. Jewish Americans are part of that high-trust society, just like you are and just like I am.
“Anyway, I’m not getting back into this with you.”
That’s your choice. It’s not my fault you can’t clearly articulate your premises or successfully defend your own arguments.
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@ Biff
“2-3% minority control only happens through massive subversion”
You have yet to demonstrate proof of minority control for a subversive purpose. All you’ve shown is that Jewish Americans are over-represented in the media. Asian Americans are over-represented in the medical fields. Perhaps that is also due to massive subversion? Perhaps they also have an insidious plot to take down the USA by, oh, spreading plagues through putative vaccines?
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Wait for it… back to Balfour!
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Biff wrote:
“Do you think Jews were just a super convenient scapegoat and there was no real reason at all that they were targeted?”
Occam’s Razor would suggest, yes, this is exactly the case, based on several hundred years of similar behavior in Europe.
From medieval times on, Jews in Europe were regularly subjected to persecution, pogroms, expulsions, and massacres because they were blamed for events that they actually had no control over. For instance, Jews were scapegoated during the Black Plague, with the prevalent theory being that Jews were putting poison in the wells to cause the epidemic. The Germans kicked off the First Crusade by massacring local Jews in the Rhineland who had absolutely nothing to do with the Muslim military threat to the Byzantine empire:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhineland_massacres
By the time Hitler came to power, there had been close to a millennium of this type of antisemitic scapegoating in Germany. It was habit.
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@ Solitaire
That Rhineland Massacre article was a doozy!
Past commenters have stated that the ritual sacrifices of Aztec prisoners of war was far worse than anything that happened in Europe.
The Aztecs were a bloody bunch, but they look like Girl Scouts compared to the drunken rampages occuring in Europe over the past millennia. Alcohol, religious fervor, greed and powerlust were a toxic mix.
Thousands of people tortured, extorted raped and murdered. Their homes and businesses looted. All based on wild-eyed rumor, innuendo and belief in a truly Mythic Past.
Seems like this behavior is cyclical. Unfortunately, we are living through a conspiracy cycle. Lots of angry people looking for someone to blame for falling standards of living and ultra-rapid change.
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Originally Posted By Paul Kruger
A white man can be a tramp or beggar on the street
But they can say to a black person.
“Yeah I might be livin in the mud. I might not have a biscuit. I might be barefoot. I might be a stinky meth addict but I’m not one of you people…..I’M NOT ONE OF YOU PEOPLE AT ALL !. I don’t care what college you went to. I don’t care if your former President Obama. That blk dude that we allowed to let in. I don’t care if you’re Oprah. I’m better than the both of them. Why ?
BECAUSE I’M A WHITE MAN THAT’S WHY.
And that’s one thing you blacks can’t get through your thick skulls. That’s how we see the world. But you don’t see the world, the way we see the world. And that’s why you’re in the shape you’re in and we are in the shape we are in. My people are still sticking it to your people. My people are still closing the doors on your people
And that’s good enough for me. You don’t understand our thinking at all MISTER – With your black PHD’s”
That’s how white supremacist and whites in general think. So there is no such thing as poor working class whites. They just have a low rank in a dominant world army.
And to most blk ppl that’s a very strange and peculiar way of thinking but as history has shown that’s a very POWERFUL- POWERFUL way to think
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While there are elements of myth in every past, the fact that Europe had exponentially fewer non-Europeans is no myth. The most crucial issue facing Europeans is the influx of uitlanders. Something’s gotta give if Europeans have a future in their native land.
And before you bring up South Africa, us Whites are a dwindling demographic, less than 8% of the population. Not at all comparable.
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You mean people like, Rishi Sunak and Suella Braverman, British Prime Minister and Home Secretary respectively, and both from Indian descent, but who belong to the most zelaous state employees in recent times, in fighting against immigration to Great Britain?
Would you want them more than native British who want even more immigration? Or would you want more the more lenient British native?
See, the BBC article, https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-63757889
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I don’t want uitlanders or uitlander-lovers in the government. Just as a dog born in a stable is not a horse, an uitlander born in Europe is not a European.
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… And a descendent of Europeans born in Africa should be called an European, not an Afrikander or Afrikaner, right?
Actually this was what Hendrik Frensch Verwoerd named them back at that time… (sarcasm)
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“Just as a dog born in a stable is not a horse”
This is a terrible comparison on a number of levels. Dogs and horses are not the same species, whereas humans are all one species and one race. Human culture is learned; that is why, for instance, adoptees not raised in their birth culture don’t speak their birth parents’ language or follow any of their cultural ways.
But it also ignores the numerous documented cases of animals raised among a different species who take on many aspects of that other species. I just saw a video last week about an orphaned hippo placed at a rhino reserve who avoided water because he had learned the rhinos’ behavior, whereas hippos naturally spend most of their day immersed in water holes. Animal behavior is also partly learned, not just sheer instinct.
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If they’re still practicing their ancestral religions and customs in any way, they aren’t assimilated. I also want to preserve the indigenous European gene pool.
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“If they’re still practicing their ancestral religions and customs in any way, they aren’t assimilated.”
It’s a mistake to frame this solely as a racial issue. There are, for example, European immigrants to Great Britain who still practice their ancestral religions and customs which differ from traditional British ways.
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They should go home too
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Then all the Americans who live in Great Britain should also go home?
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