Redlining (fl. 1933-68) is where banks, insurance companies and others mark certain neighbourhoods in red on their maps as places not to do business – or to offer the most unfavourable terms. This is not done for hard-headed business reasons, but mainly because of the race of people who live there. Even Sugar Hill in Harlem, where Duke Ellington lived, was redlined.
Common side effects: check-cashing places, predatory lending, run-down neighbourhoods, bad schools, food deserts, continuing wealth gap.
Most neighbourhoods that were redlined in the 1930s were Black and Brown and poor in the 2010s. And no wonder since redlining starved them of credit! The main exceptions are neighbourhoods that have been gentrified – by Whites. Redlining was outlawed in 1968, but as of 2015 banks were still using redlined maps!
In the 1930s the US government drew up secret, colour-coded maps of over 200 cities:
- Green: best (= well-to-do, lily-White neighbourhoods)
- Blue: still desirable (= working-class Whites)
- Yellow: definitely declining (= poor White, immigrant or racially integrated)
- Red: hazardous (Negroes, Jewish, Italians, Orientals, Mexicans)
The public did not know about these maps till the 1960s. The government used them to determine its insurance rates for home loans, which in turn affected the decisions of banks and mortgage companies.
Homer Hoyt, who became the government’s top economist on housing in 1934, said that long-term property values were determined by who lived in a neighbourhood. From most “desirable” to least:
- English, Germans, Scots, Irish, Scandinavians;
- North Italians;
- Bohemians or Czechoslovakian;
- Poles;
- Lithuanians;
- Greeks:
- Russian Jews of the lower class;
- South Italians;
- Negroes;
- Mexicans.
Which is not far from what eugenicists of the time were saying.
Hoyt said Whites could move up if they assimilate (“conform to the American standard of living”) – which is just what Third Wave Whites (#2 to #8) would do. Thus Jews are no longer redlined. But Blacks and Mexicans had no hope of overcoming “the opinion or prejudice” of the housing market.
The government could have evened the playing field. Instead it used redlining to turn prejudice into policy.
Bootstraps: Owning a home is the main stepping stone to a stable, middle-class life in the US. And property taxes paid by home owners in turn determine how good the nearby schools are. So redlining in effect shut many Blacks and Latinos out of the middle class. The government was secretly cutting their bootstraps behind their backs!
In 1968 the Fair Housing Act outlawed redlining and the Community Reinvestment Act (1977) was meant to reverse its effects. But like most civil rights laws, they have been poorly enforced, even under President Obama.
In 2018 a study of 31 million mortgage applications from 2015 and 2016 found that, despite an applicant’s income or a neighbourhood’s median income:
“black applicants were turned away at significantly higher rates than whites in 48 cities, Latinos in 25, Asians in nine and Native Americans in three.”
Banks deny they redline. They say they go by credit scores – and yet refuse to tell the government what those credit scores are! Which makes it all but impossible to nail them on redlining.
– Abagond, 2020.
Sources: mainly The Root (excellent YouTube video, 8.5 minutes, 2019); Curbed Seattle (map); Reveal News (study, 2018); “Not in My Neighborhood” (2010) by Antero Pietila.
See also:
- housing phenomena:
- wealth gap, causes of:
- slavery
- Homestead Act
- The Third Enlargement of American Whiteness – for Third Wave Whites
- The Bootstrap Myth
- Ta-Nehisi Coates: The Case for Reparations
- eugenics
- English Americans – and their racial model
- other nefarious uses of US Census data:
578
I’m a reform conservative. Two auto insurance rates. Metropolitan and rural. One rate across the metropolitan area. One rate outside. Is that so hard?
A reform conservative is one of two things: A former Democrats who realized the liberals are nuts. Or, a lifelong Republican who realized his own right wing was nuts. “Nuts” is a very white way of putting it, but it flies.
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That’s nice but what’s it got to do with redlining?
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Because if you have a single auto insurance rate over an entire metro area you no longer have redlining in auto insurance severely penalizing inner city drivers to save the affluent a couple of bucks a month. Just living in the inner city myself when I was a young guy I paid the penalties for it too. My color didn’t matter. I didn’t get a discount for being a white guy. It was based on zip code.
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So in a broken down hood, if it’s ‘gentification compatible.’ A shell will be like 90k or in the regular hood they’d rather see a bando (abandoned vacant housr) than write a mortgage for $30k for a family to live, it’s a disaster, ‘oh we make no money off a loan like that’
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Newworld said: “Just living in the inner city myself when I was a young guy I paid the penalties for it too. My color didn’t matter. I didn’t get a discount for being a white guy. It was based on zip code.”
Just living in rural South Carolina myself when I was a young guy, I paid the penalty EVERYWHERE I went. My skin color DID matter and still does. I didn’t get a discount for being a black guy, in fact, a black tax was exacted or levied against me for being as such. It WAS based on MY skin tone, not my zip code.
What was your zip code, 90210??
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Yeah, but the premiums are higher because of the inhabitants. You got caught up in this system because you lived there. The race had, has, everything to do with it. Why do you think the area was declined? It must be nice to be delusional.
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This guy is another white supremacist not wanting to acknowledge their biases.
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Points theyalways circle back around to points
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This 1936 map of Seattle’s Black Central District (D4 & D5) marks the area as “hazardous”. The Italian Rainier Valley Area (C13) is listed as “definitely declining.”
Now those areas are filled with construction cranes and White Hipsters. The Italians never sold their property (much to the chagrin of the Vietnamese) so they have moved back into the Valley.
Meanwhile, Black folk, low-income Asians and African immigrants have been pushed into the Southern suburbs and beyond.
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@blakksage No, it was not 90210. It wasn’t in the nines at all. It was in the sixes. Since the early 70’s I’ve paid the white tax if you need to know. That’s the one the middle class and upper middle class whites skate on and the poverty survivors get hit with. In common with the black tax, the penalty often is essentially 100 percent of lifetime income. Don’t think it doesn’t play out that way. Of course, the black tax doesn’t fall on everyone black either. Some do very well, thank you, if they can make through the people laundering process, also known as the meritocratic hurdles, whether they really are meritocratic or not. I say not as much as people believe..
With a little outreach I could have done the same. There was none, and it was, in effect, made illegal for anyone to provide outreach for anyone of my ilk, not any academic program and not any employer of significance either.
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@ newworld3000
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/08/myth-of-reverse-racism/535689/
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Of course the Atlajntic is going to say that. I my universe, in is in and out is out, and i know who is in and who is out. The topic over its entire history has been a neverland of shifting boundaries between concepts and endless deceits. It was set up to be that way, and it disparate impact remains the law.
I can tell you, in my own former business of being a journalist, it was impossible for me under the published critera to apply to a major new organization for a job as as reporter. With the same qualification I actually had, if I was a minority group member, I would have been able to apply and likely have been hired. Remember, published qualifications.
My argument is that if minority applicants are allowed to apply for jobs or academic programs with more limited qualification than are demanded of whites, then these are the bona fide qualifications, and whites ought to be able to apply under them also. For example, if highly job specific degree and a certain amount of specific experience is demanded of white and any somewhat related degree and less experience is allowed for minority applicants, then the latter is what all should be able to apply under. The employer and legla system have already conceded, these are adequate qualiufication.
Beyond this, do anyone really want a situation wherein people have rights only a member of some defined group and different rights for different groups? The system of political and social organization wherein the individual has rights only in relation to their connection to some corporate entity has a name. It is called fascism.
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“I can tell you, in my own former business of being a journalist, it was impossible for me under the published critera to apply to a major new organization for a job as as reporter. With the same qualification I actually had, if I was a minority group member, I would have been able to apply and likely have been hired. Remember, published qualifications.”
To be frank, if your spelling and grammar mistakes here are any indication of your work, there is good reason you couldn’t get hired by a major news organization. It’s easier to ignore your own shortcomings and blame it on a scapegoat, isn’t it?
“My argument is that if minority applicants are allowed to apply for jobs or academic programs with more limited qualification than are demanded of whites, then these are the bona fide qualifications, and whites ought to be able to apply under them also. For example, if highly job specific degree and a certain amount of specific experience is demanded of white and any somewhat related degree and less experience is allowed for minority applicants, then the latter is what all should be able to apply under. The employer and legla system have already conceded, these are adequate qualiufication.”
That may have happened in the past, but for a long time now, generally all applicants have to meet certain criteria. Within that pool, preference may be given to members of underrepresented groups in order to increase diversity within the organization and to counter any lingering bias against applicants who are not white males.
Apparently it never bothered you when people who weren’t white males couldn’t get a foothold in these organizations, even with impeccable credentials.
“Beyond this, do anyone really want a situation wherein people have rights only a member of some defined group and different rights for different groups?”
U.S. society was set up in that exact situation from the start, despite any lip service to inalienable rights.
How do you suggest we correct for a couple hundred years of inequality, discrimination, and unequal opportunities?
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“… if minority applicants are allowed to apply for jobs or academic programs with more limited qualification than are demanded of whites, then these are the bona fide qualifications, and whites ought to be able to apply under them also.”
Still clinging to that racist trope of the “unqualified Black applicant gets the job or college admission over fully qualified White/Asian applicant”, huh? LOL!
That argument has been refuted and discredited for at least three decades. Funny thing, the “unqualified Black applicant” canard was not backed up by empirical evidence, just anecdotes by threatened and resentful Euro- (and some Asian) Americans. Anecdotes amplified by White privilege.
It is way past time for you to give it up and turn it loose.
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I never said that. Go back and read what I said.
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I applied to the New York Times and the Washington Post. They didn’t even respond. By your druthers, I should have got the job despite not having the requisite qualifications. I also sell swamps in Florida, anyone interested?
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Thankfully everything you “said” upthread is in written form. I quoted you and responded to your words. No need to re-read your timeworn “White victim” commentary.
Solitaire also quoted you and refuted your arguments—-point by point. I would love to read your response to her thoughtful question:
“How do you suggest we correct for a couple hundred years of inequality, discrimination, and unequal opportunities?”
Anytime you are ready….
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@Afrofem The question I asked was very pointed. I asked why, if minority group members are allowed to apply for career entry and academic programs with some certain qualifications, I could not apply with the same qualifications?
I never said the minority group members were unqualified. What I said was, the criteria they were considered under were the bona fide qualifications and that the qualification that were required to my, or any white person, especially a male person, were excessive.
That is what I said. I also said some other things, but I did say that one thing.
In the business I worked in, which was print journalism, the requirements for applying for a position with a major news organization, meaning something like the AP or anymetropolitan paper even in a smaller metro area were published. Published. They were, for minority applicants, one year of experience with a smaller daily paper. Three years experience for a white applicant.
My argument is that it ought to be determinable who has the talent to make it and who do doesn’t. I never argued with the one year as sufficient. I, in fact, say that one year is too much.
Another things to be aware of is that these kind of hiring guidlines are not something that is developed by some professional society or through custom and trial and error. They are the results of legal settlements and thus become a proven legal way of doing busines which if it is followed makes a business proof against future civil right lawsuits. What devolves from this is that a business will not deviate from these guidelines no matter what, meaning that the ultimate effect is that white males need not apply.
This template is repeated in situation after situation, and I have on numerous occasion seen published guidelines which operate similarly, for example requiring a job specific degree for white applicants but not for minority applicant.
I’m not complaining that minority applicants are unqualified. I’m complaining that whites are not allowed to apply under the same criteria as minority applicants.
I’ve read your comments before going back several years. My understanding is, you are Marxist in your framework. If you are a Marxist, shame on you. You ought to understand how power works and as Afro-feminist you ought to know trick bag when you see one.
I get it, you don’t like the idea of inclusive labor-oriented conservative populism. But it’s what’s coming. I hope.
Response?
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I guess you never worked in IT.
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@ newworld3000
“In the business I worked in, which was print journalism, the requirements for applying for a position with a major news organization, meaning something like the AP or anymetropolitan paper even in a smaller metro area were published. Published. They were, for minority applicants, one year of experience with a smaller daily paper. Three years experience for a white applicant.”
If these racially-disparate criteria were published, as you say above, you should be able to provide hard proof of your claim. I’d like to see that proof.
“the ultimate effect is that white males need not apply.”
Then why are there still so many white males employed in print journalism?
“I have on numerous occasion seen published guidelines which operate similarly, for example requiring a job specific degree for white applicants but not for minority applicant.”
I really need to see proof of this. That is a lawsuit just waiting to happen, if true.
“I’m not complaining that minority applicants are unqualified. I’m complaining that whites are not allowed to apply under the same criteria as minority applicants.”
It works out to the same complaint. You’re saying that the minority applicants didn’t have to have the same qualifications and therefore were not as qualified as the white hires. You’re saying that you could have gotten in under those less-stringent criteria if you hadn’t been white.
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A typical white supremacist argument. Throw in you are a Marxist for good measure.
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One Black person is too many for this guy. That’ s the gist of his argument.
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@ newworld3000
I’m with Solitaire. Are you able to produce any real published proof of disparate hiring guidelines for Black jounalism applicants versus White journalism applicants? If true, rightwing media and academics would have been in an uproar decades ago.
“Inclusive labor-oriented conservative populism” is an oxymoron. Inclusive of whom exactly? Which labor categories? Conserving what? Expand on this term.
BTW, attempting to deflect with the term, “Marxist”, is indicative of a threadbare argument on your part.
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@ Herneith
Agreed. NW3000 is blowing thick smoke, while ducking and dodging answers to direct questions.
Par for the course for “aggrieved” White supremacists.
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Then ask a question. One question. Not a question framed in subjectivity. A question about some aspect of law or public policy. One question,
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Still stalling for time, huh? LOL!
Answer a question. Answer one question.
A great deal of questions have been asked of you upthread. You have yet to answer any of them. They deal with aspects of law and public policy.
Answer one question….
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You won’t get any. They’ll change the goal post or throw in some other canard.
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@ Herneith
So true.
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I’m not stalling. I could as easily say, you’re stalling, but I won’t. One thing I do with a lot of conservatives is tell them I always like it when they make my argument for me. Maybe you have, but I won’t hit you with that one either. Even though you have.
You asked me, of whom is inclusive, labor-oriented conservative populism supposed to be inclusive? The answer is everyone, That’s what the word inclusive mean.
As I understand the idea, the agenda of inclusuve, labor oriented conservative populism would include:
1) Economic nationalism and national economic development. This is something which right now working class white people support in the form of the MAGA concept. I can tell you, no one who is white expects any new jobs created to go only to white people. Why blacks specifically are not strongly behind this idea is not clear to me except that politics is, well, political and always rankly partisan.
2) Free community college and lower public college costs. Free community college was put on the table in the Barack Obama’s 2014 State of the Union address, although in a somewhat mangled form. Rahm Immanuel also endorsed the idea around the time his second term as mayor of Chicago ended, but again in mangles form. Free community college ought to be the feel good idea of the century so far. It is at the same time a good conservative populist idea and a good liberal populist idea. I think I know why it has gone nowhere, and I will explain.
Federalizing community college and other public college costs threatens a rearrangement of public education financing in the United States. By freeing up state and local money which now is used to finance higher education to pay for common school (K-12) education, the need for federal subsidies for common school education would be highly reduced, even eliminated. But eliminating federal funds also mean eliminating federal control. The liberal and leftist do not want that, for a variety of ideological, cultural and practical political reasons.
For another thing free community college and lower public college costs would eliminate some the necessity for need-based college financial aid. The need-based system started out with good intentions but at this points as developed into a system of rationing with eligibility rules which sometimes rival those governing athletic elibibility. I know what I am talking about, I was part of the first generation in the 1960’s that went to college on need-based aid. I told you, I am poverty survivor. When you live through something that could have killed you, that’s what you are called, a survivor.
3) Free fast track job and career training. This could include anything up to training in computer programming and engineering, but also the skilled jobs people with lower educational levels and people who want a blue collar career always have worked in. Fast track means you get to work in a few weeks or a few months at the most, not years. Programming boot camps, so-called, take about four months. I can’t imagine it would take longer than that to get someone started as, say, an automotive technician or in a culinary career.
4) Tax reform. Put the federal income tax on a you-play, you-pay basis. What that means is, you make a certain amount of money, you pay a certain amount, and that’s it. That’s the world the common man or woman lives in, and even people with high incomes who actually have to work for their money and don’t have the time to play the tax dodge gamelives in. The wealthy can live in it too. You don’t need to set confiscatory rates and then give people a way to wiggle out of paying, You need a reasonable rate but you need to make people actually pay it. If someone who was so fortunate as to make, say $10 million a year had to pay 30 percent no way out of it, that three million a year is an astounding amount of money.
5) Tax-based universal health insurance. This means, tax the payroll of employer who do not provide a health benefit at a rate of maybe seven or eight percent. On top of social security, that’s about as far as you can go. Take the money thus raised, along with general revenue now being spent on health care for the poor and buy everyone else a policy. No single payer. No Medicare for all. You just buy people into the system that already exists and be done with it as an issue.
Why can’t other people think of this? Well, the idea is a reflection of the Platonic order and the Platonic concept of social justice.
Side benefit: You take away the employer’s incentive to hire only part time workers and the incentive to try to leach off of publicly funded health coverage or benefits covered under a spouse or parent.
6) Market-based solution to high housing costs; Build, Is that hard to understand?
7) Drain the Disparate Impact-Affirmative Action swamp. First of all, throughout American history, whatever racial system has existed is the system, and has defined the position of all persons within the system, not just non-whites. I don’t think you need to be a rabid Marxist to understand this. I understand it. The issue with the Disparate Impact system (that being my proper term for it) is that is quickly came to impact matters not having to do with the inclusion of previously excluded minorities. This impact needs to be looked at. Especially, how it has impacted career entry for four-year college graduates is an issue. Few people know it, but four year graduates have a pretty high poverty, underemployment and labor force non-participation rates. The only time I saw any clear numbers (I said clear, not accurate because I am not sure of the accuracy of the numbers I saw) the overall rate was surprisingly high, and double for blacks what it was for whites.
Court settlements of civil rights suits and I imagine guidelines from professional asssociations, non-governmental entities and the government itself have set qualification for the entry level in all sorts of careers. Most of the time, this is … I can’t say the word here … but it starts with “b”. College dropouts, high school grads and even non-high school grads get hired for all sorts of job. Most entry level jobs for college graduates are not so specialized that any degree should not qualify a person to apply. I say, the employment problems for four-year degree holder generally, and for black four-year degree holders specifically, represent blowback from the Disparate Impact system.
8) Open up graduate and professional education to people able to do the work who now are deemed not qualified under tyrannical guidelines coming out of the Department of Education.
9) Pull the plug on the idea of using education on any level as mean of indoctrination in any social ideology. I’ve concluded, being scared of the end of the world is part of being a kid. In my day it was nuclear annihilation. Today it’s climate change. Way back when, it was the people over the next hill riding in and destroying your village. Education shouldn’t manipulate this primal fear even when it is real. It was in my day, especially if you lived in a big city. Today? I don’t know. No one knows what the future is or what human being have to power to control.
10) School choice.
These are the generalities of my critique. Sorry that white voters with less than four years of college are force behind the possibility of jump starting this agenda. Trump himself has embraced only two elements of the agenda. Economic nationalism, aks MAGA. And tax reform. The tax reform passed by Congress was a step in the right direction, but it still unfortunately gave the very high income earners room to wiggle out of paying, They shouldn’t have that, in my opinion.
I’m sorry, but I can’t make a full-time career out of trying discuss these topics with people who are almost categorically resistant to admitting that there can be any issue at all on my side.. Seriously, I am perpetually aggrieved because I have perpetual grievances, No one wants to face a system which perpetually says to you, not wanted. You don’t. I don’t either. When you face that, you look at why.
Right now, I am doing fiction writing. The system that exists for submitting your work as far as I am concerned is a criminal enterprise. I mean that literally. By that I mean, civil action could be taken against it under RICO and anti-trust laws. I don’t think I should have to submit my work to readers and assistants who are still children in some cases and who have to fear for their future in the business if they advocate for the wrong person.
If you wrote fiction and submitted your work and the reader forwarded it to the agent, you might not be accepted. But the reader wouldn’t be in deep for doing so. In my case, they might be. Seriously. You need to get it.
I want to say something also about the apparently male person who posted on the subject of submitting his resume to major newspapers and not getting a response. There is something wrong with the intake system for entry level employment especially in the media, the arts or any occupation that could be deemed creative. People need a regular means of entering these occupations. Maybe career entry needs to be under the control of court referees. The situation, in my estimation is that bad.
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No, No, and DOUBLE @SS NO
This is an utterly horrific proposition, and may even be far worse than the current US system (which is already horrific, by the way). It does nothing to address the fundamental problems of health care in the US, ie, it costs 2 to 3 times as much as anywhere else (drugs and certain procedures / technologies are up to 10 times as much, if not more), produces noticeably worse health outcomes than every other industrialized country and creates additional avenues to limit access and delivery that are designed to make certain industries richer while denying care to a large chunk of the population.
I am a long term commenter on this blog as well as contributed many guest posts, but I may have to bring up my background again.
I worked some 25 years in the actuarial field, employee benefits consulting and in health care finance and delivery in the US and multiple other countries. I worked as the chief statistician for the finance department of a large urban teaching hospital in New York city, on the actuarial team of a major Group Health insurance company in New York, for the international employee benefits consulting team in New York, as well as Hong Kong, Tokyo and other places. In HK, I was also responsible for Taiwan.
Some of the actuarial exams specifically test knowledge and understanding of healthcare financing and delivery systems in US, Canada and other multiple countries. I have also availed of the health care system myself in several countries.
When I worked as a statistician for a Hospital finance department, about 50% of my job was to make revenue projections on existing and proposed policy, 25% was on evaluating quality control and 25% on routine and non-routine queries from various departments around the facility.
The goal of the finance department was to maximize revenue. So, an example would be to analyze the difference in targeted number of days of stay for a certain diagnostic related group (term used in medicare and medicaid reimbursement). There were classifications based on the type of insurance, HMO or not, self-pay or not, etc. So, a target number of days and treatment protocol was determined for each DRG based on classification of the payor.
The hospital formed treatment policies based on this. Treatment is based on how much money they will make, not necessarily on what is most appropriate for the illness. In fact, it might be better to reclassify certain diagnosis into a different diagnosis (especially if there were multiple diagnosis and one would earn more revenue than the other).
So, if you are not poor enough for medicaid, and not old enough for medicare, and you do not have a cadillac insurance policy, you can imagine what kind of treatment you will get. If you have bad credit, they might try to kick you out as soon as possible.
Just thinking about this is horrific.
From the actuarial viewpoint, the way that insurance companies will make money is largely dependent on the interplay of risk classification and adverse selection. Basically, divide up a customer market into as many tranches as you can based on risk, charge them something different to avoid risk classification, ie, younger healthy people get charged less than older people, reject insurance for those with pre-existing conditions (or charge them some exhorbitant premium). You can still get a moderate market for customers with moderate means who cannot afford high premiums by including high copays and deductibles, making most cheaper care out of pocket anyhow, and only the most expensive services would have a reimbursement, but only after considerable out of pocket costs. On top of this, insurance companies hire doctors and nurses specifically to deny customer claims, or at least require their approval before any procedure is done (disregarding what the health care professionals treating them might be saying).
Only if you can afford a cadillac plan can you avoid many of these problems.
Hospitals and Health Insurance companies are one thing. Pharmaceutical and Medical technology firms are another. I can tell you that costs for these things in the US are 3 to 10 times as much as in any other country.
US system is a nightmare. So, I will never advocate “buying into the system” but getting rid of it altogether.
Taiwan instituted their National health insurance program in the mid 90s, and it is one of the best in the world. If Healthcare were the factor to attract me to move to a place, I would be in Taiwan now. Many people from HK have moved there in light of the unrest, and that is one of the positive things they like about the place (and HK is already light years better than the US).
And I must advise everyone that we must under all circumstances categorically reject Medicare for those who want it . We must also reject any proposal in which people can opt out of a public system by purchasing private insurance. That creates an adverse selection problem itself. Governments will then actively seek to defund Medicare, or any public option and give tax breaks to the companies who provide cadillac plans to those who can afford it (or who otherwise have access to the rich or powerful). So, we will have a two-tiered system (or some kind of multi-tiered system) where a small segment of the population enjoys great health insurance, care, treatment and reimbursement and the rest of us have to suffer through cr@ppy healthcare, if at all. It is imperative that the rich and well-connected maintain a stake in the option that everyone is a part of. So, to maintain good insurance coverage for all, we must somehow limit, if not prevent the extent to which private cadillac plans could be offered. The rich cannot be allowed to segregate themselves.
To give an example of how this would work, look at the topic “Segregation Academies” that I submitted a few years ago.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2015/03/20/segregation-academies/
In that case, there is technically a “public option”, but governments actively defund it so that it sucks. As there is no such thing as “separate but equal” in education, there is none in health care either. We cannot allow avenues to exacerbate inequality to go unplugged.
One way is to exclude non-therapeutic care (eg, cosmetic surgery, circumcisions, etc. ) from the public option and let people pay for that out of pocket of pay for insurance which covers procedures outside the public system. If rich people want to get cadillac healthcare, they can simply pay for it. But there must be no incentive for them to defund the public option.
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Corrections:
“divide up a customer market into as many tranches as you can based on risk, and charge them something different to avoid risk classification,”
–> charge them something different to avoid adverse selection,
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Abagond,
Thank you for listing the link to the “Blockbusting” (https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/06/24/blockbusting/).
In that post, I had a potential link for “Redlining” as I had thought I might draft and submit one. However, obviously you did it first. Is it too much trouble to insert the link there back to this one? I know you rarely do that, so I don’t know if it is because it is too much trouble, or because you only want to link to old posts, not newer ones. I think links in both directions however, would help to increase traffic to your blog.
BTW, do you still want guest posts?
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@ newworld3000
“If you wrote fiction and submitted your work and the reader forwarded it to the agent, you might not be accepted. But the reader wouldn’t be in deep for doing so. In my case, they might be. Seriously. You need to get it.”
This is such bull. The readers and agents don’t see your face. They don’t need to know one damn thing about your race or gender to read and evaluate your work. Submit under a pseudonym that gives nothing away, like women have done for centuries and still do to this day.
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“The system that exists for submitting your work as far as I am concerned is a criminal enterprise. I mean that literally. By that I mean, civil action could be taken against it under RICO and anti-trust laws. I don’t think I should have to submit my work to readers and assistants who are still children in some cases and who have to fear for their future in the business if they advocate for the wrong person.”
I can guarantee just from the above example of your work, there is at least one editorial assistant out there with a crank file that’s got your name on it. Especially if you’re letting them know you consider them to still be children — that’s not going to open any doors for you.
If you can’t handle the established system that publishes the work of hundreds of white male authors every year, I recommend you try self-publishing. Easier than ever in the internet age, and some people have been able to start successful careers that way.
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I think I referenced this local article about the effects of redlining in Seattle on another thread. It is certainly appropriate for this thread.
When the redlined map of Seattle’s neighborhoods was published in 1936, the areas marked in red were predominantly Black. Those neighborhoods were primarily single family houses and duplexes. Those homes were owner-occupied.
During World War 2, the Black areas were jam-packed with Black migrant workers from Louisiana and Texas. They migrated to work in the war industries. They were part of the vast workforce that produced airplanes and ships for the war effort.
After the war, many of the Black workers stayed and were joined by other Black migrants fleeing unrestrained violence in the South. This article describes the types of communities those migrants formed:
https://crosscut.com/2018/04/epic-battle-against-gentrification
The irony is this tight knit community culture existed in areas listed on the map as “hazardous”. Even when I moved to Seattle in the late 1980s, the homes and yards were still well-kept and the sense of community was still strong.
It was under the term of the city’s first Black mayor, that the Great Push-Out began. In a playbook replicated throughout the nation, Black people were pushed out of their Central Area and Rainier Valley neighborhoods with:
◇ violent and arbitrary overpolicing
◇ defunding of schools and community centers
◇ laggard city services in regards to trash collection and pothole filling
◇ escalating property taxes
Inye Wokoma describes why he purchased his grandfather’s first house and struggled to maintain and improve it over the past decade:
Some people still revere President Roosevelt (FDR). As I have learned more about that administration, I am aware of how those New Deal programs were crafted to uplift White families while excluding Black families. In many cases, programs such as the Federal Housing Authority (FHA), the Civilian Conservation Corps (CCC) and Social Security (SS) all either excluded the bulk of Black workers (SS) or actively discriminated against Black families and communities (FHA).
The practice of redlining is one such practice that started under FDR. All the while, Black people paid local, state and federal taxes, like everyone else. In effect, Black people were subsidizing programs of social and economic uplift for White families that benefits White families to this day. That is just one facet of the “Black Tax” alluded to upthread.
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@ NW 3000
My response is forthcoming….
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@ newworld3000
I asked you to expand on the term, “inclusive labor-oriented conservative populism”. What you wrote was a compendium of right wing talking points, including:
“Economic nationalism and national economic development. This is something which right now working class white people support in the form of the MAGA concept. I can tell you, no one who is white expects any new jobs created to go only to white people.”
Black people are not behind anything MAGA because it is specifically a White nationalist concept. White nationalism automatically excludes Black people. To think otherwise is the height of naiveté.
“…freeing up state and local money which now is used to finance higher education to pay for common school (K-12) education, the need for federal subsidies for common school education would be highly reduced, even eliminated. But eliminating federal funds also mean eliminating federal control. The liberal and leftist do not want that, for a variety of ideological, cultural and
practical political reasons.”
State and local funds are primarily used to fund K-12 education. State funding for post-secondary education has been progressively slashed over the past four decades. That lack of public funding for state institutions of higher learning has been a major factor in tuition outpacing inflation. Most public and private colleges and universities are paid for by student debt, which has ballooned to over one trillion dollars.
I would welcome an elimination of federal control over education. That control has lead to horrible laws and programs like “No Child Left Behind” and “Race To The Top” where critical thinking and learning has been replaced with test taking, mass teacher firings and school closures. All primarily in Black school districts.
I would also welcome a disbanding of Teach For America, which has been used to deprofessionalize the teaching profession. I am not alone in those sentiments. Many people who identify as “liberal and leftist” or progressive want more local control over K-12 education funding, staffing and curriculum.
“Tax reform… You don’t need to set confiscatory rates and then give people a way to wiggle out of paying, You need a reasonable rate but you need to make people actually pay it.”
The US experienced its greatest prosperity when the tax rate on the wealthiest Americans was at 90% from the 1950s to the 1970s. There were all sorts of loopholes and legal tax dodges available to the top economic quintile of Americans. Yet, they paid the majority of their taxes due—–and were still wealthy enough for country clubs, yachts and servants.
“Tax-based universal health insurance.”
I’m in total agreement with the comment by jefe about that proposal. The health insurance industry (another oxymoron) needs to go the way of buggy whip makers. They are nothing more than extractive rent seekers.
If citizens of other countries such as Taiwan, Thailand, Costa Rica, South Korea, Germany, France, Canada and Cuba enjoy universal, single payor healthcare, Americans should also. Single payor should include every citizen—-everyone in, no one out. Universal healthcare would be a major boost the US economy.
“Drain the Disparate Impact-Affirmative Action swamp.”
That “swamp” exists as a figment of your imagination. Affirmative Action was nullified over twenty years ago. It was considered politically incorrect by White males, even though White women were its primary beneficiaries.
Much ado about nothing.
“Pull the plug on the idea of using education on any level as mean of indoctrination in any social ideology. I’ve concluded, being scared of the end of the world is part of being a kid. In my day it was nuclear annihilation. Today it’s climate change.”
Are you writing your comments from a cave? Climate change is not an ideological scare tactic. Climate change is very real. It is also progressing faster than scientific projections. Young people and the rest of the population have a right to be concerned about it’s effects.
In case you haven’t noticed, social ideology (socialization, etc) is always a part of education, no matter the country or the historical era.
“Inclusive, labor-oriented conservative populism” as you define it is just five fancy words for working class White privilege. It is inherently “inclusive” of White people. It seeks to “conserve” the social order of White Supremacy. Nothing original there. We have been living under this system since the 1670s. This “populism” seeks to extend that system.
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OMG, this guy seems not to understand much about the hurdles to build housing in the USA. What’s more, this statement was made under a post entitled “Redlining”. 🙄
There are many multiple problems with this argument.
There are so many social and political forces that interfere with market-based solutions so that what results is not housing at some level for all, but a multi-tiered system of haves and have-nots. Indeed, it is not really that different from health care, education, transportation infrastructure, police protection, etc.,
1. Redlining
Yes, indeed, the subject of this post.
Redlining creates an artificial housing shortage, because the groups who are still welcomed in some of the zones outside the redlined areas, but who can barely afford to live there, create an artificial high demand for those zones. The redlined zones are made expensive in other ways, eg, much higher insurance rates, much more expensive credit, poor access to employment, hospitals, doctors, libraries, other public services, fresh food, reduced funding for schools. Even under this scenario, theoretically potential employers could build and set up business there, but they dare not due to all the problems caused by redlining.
The people who cannot afford to live in the artificially expensive zones, but who do not want to live in the redlined zones are forced to move very far from the city or their places of employment. Charles County Maryland south of DC earns the title of the longest and most expensive commute in the nation for that very reason. IT is easy to find reference links for this if desired.
The Most Expensive Commutes in America Aren’t in NYC or San Francisco
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-28/washington-d-c-commuting-cost-is-higher-than-nyc-san-francisco
Maryland, Virginia counties top list of most expensive commutes in US
https://wtop.com/local/2019/03/maryland-virginia-counties-top-list-of-most-expensive-commutes-in-us/
I grew up in Anacostia in SE DC and in Prince George’s county, MD. The Washington DC area is the wealthiest most highly educated metro area in the US, and receives more tourists in the US than any other city except for possibly New York. And there is a severe housing shortage. The area east of the Anacostia River occupies nearly 1/3 of the entire land area of DC, and is a stone’s throw from the Capitol and the Smithsonian, but there is not a single hotel or motel. There is no separate Starbucks store (in a city that has well over a hundred stores). The few major sources of employment (eg, Bolling Air Force Base, St. Elizabeth’s Sanitorium) are set off away from any residential or commercial area surrounded by a high fence and armed guards. And most of the area is a food desert and difficult to buy fresh food. Most banks left and were replaced with check cashing stores and predatory lending establishments. Developers have shunned building anything there for decades (although there is now some attempt to gentrify some of the area near the Anacostia metro station).
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/03/19/anacostia/
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2015/03/25/prince-georges-county/
You might see a few Asian owned convenience stores and take-out shops, but they are able to do that largely because they can tap into some alternate sources of credit and provide for their own security.
Has it been redlined? Gee? Would a middle class family with children live there? Where can they live?
Large swaths of Prince George’s county adjacent to Anacostia have a similar experience despite also holding the title of the wealthiest majority black county in the nation (and in the top 70 overall in the country).
2. Zoning
Zoning laws are designed to reduce the amount of affordable housing, or if not specifically designed to do so, have that effect.
The NIMBY (Not in my Backyard) attitude enables wealthy whites to create a “No ‘riff raff’ in my backyard” environment to exacerbate a housing shortage. For example, most large US cities have an inordinate amount of area devoted to single family detached housing with minimum sized lots. A 5 mile radius of the White house, for example, would show that the majority of the housing is still single family detached housing. One of the most egregious examples of this would be the Whitehaven mansion purchased by Hillary Clinton, about one mile from Georgetown or Dupont Circle. If the cities would relax this zoning requirement, and simply allow accessory dwelling units or multifamily units, the housing supply could probably be doubled. But it may cause a reduction in the value of the single family houses in those neighborhoods.
The problem of housing in the central urban areas extends to the residential areas further out and out into the suburbs. Zoning in areas convenient for transportation and employment is not zoned effectively to take advantage of that. Another problem with zoning is minimum parking requirements. There is more land devoted to cars than to housing, despite the fact that the land for cars is not occupied most of the time. Minimum parking requirements should be removed to allow more of it to be devoted to housing.
Minneapolis has decided to address the problem of a lack of unaffordable housing and housing segregation by reformulating the zoning laws. Few other cities do that.
Minneapolis Confronts Its History of Housing Segregation
By doing away with single-family zoning, the city takes on high rent, long commutes, and racism in real estate in one fell swoop.
https://slate.com/business/2018/12/minneapolis-single-family-zoning-housing-racism.html
***>
The market forces might be able to work more efficiently and provide more affordable housing if we could remove redlining and inappropriate, inefficient and discriminatory land zoning.
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Jefe’s redlining and zoning comments brought to mind the great lengths affluent communities go to stifle affordable housing. Investigative site, ProPublica published a detailed 2019 report on the shenanigans employed by residents of tony Connecticut suburbs to zone out multifamily housing. The article notes:
https://www.propublica.org/article/how-some-of-americas-richest-towns-fight-affordable-housing
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Yet, another factor is vacancy rates, both official and unofficial. In Seattle, the city, King county and WA state have declared “housing emergencies” and “homeless emergencies”. Yet, developers have overbuilt high end housing for their ideal renters/buyers (affluent young White families, couples and singles), while ignoring other sectors of the “market” where the need is greater.
Currently, Seattle has an official vacancy rate of 25%. That means one in four apartments or condos are sitting empty.
The unofficial vacancy rate is even higher. In the luxury apartment and condo market, more than half of the units are unoccupied at any given time. Many of the units are owned by trusts and limited liability companies which provide anonymity to the owners. That arrangement raises the spector of the homes being used for money laundering or storing wealth. A local site detailed that situation in an article, “Are the rich secretly hoarding their wealth in Seattle’s luxury condos?” The author revealed:
https://crosscut.com/2019/11/are-rich-secretly-hoarding-their-wealth-seattles-luxury-condos
NW 3000, that is the reality of “Market-based solution to high housing costs; Build…”
Mr. and Ms. Market can’t be relied upon to do what is best for the bulk of the population. The lure of avarice is too great.
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Deferring completely to Mr. and Ms. Market is known as neoliberalism and even though it is infrequently called by name, that ideology now dominates. You are correct, Afofem, that the “lure of avarice is too great” but that is precisely the reason why neoliberalism is appealing. It’s not a bug but a feature.
Furthermore, exceptions to these “market-based solutions” are made when the system’s internal antagonisms would cause it to implode. So when “the market” decides that a large bank should fail because it made risky decisions that didn’t pay off that bank is “bailed out” if it is deemed “too big to fail”. They don’t listen to the market when the market says, “this system must die”; they put it on life support.
So in addition to being rubber-stamp for greed, it is also a lie.
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But the things I talked about would make a lot of difference in a lot of people’s lives regardless of color. Universal health, regardless of the form of it, would be exactly that, universal.Or ypu could call it inclusive as I framed the term.
Free, or no-cost if you want to call it that, comunity college and career training would not be exclusive to white people. You might want to know, the community college I went to in Chicago, today known as Olive-Harvey after two South Side of Chicago Vietnam war Medal of Honor Winners today is predominantly black as far as I know. The community college in Chicago my mother went in the 1940’s, formerly Wilson, now Kennedy-King, is predominantly black and perhaps was virtually all black for some period of time.
I never said, free community college for suburban and rural campuses and urban campuses in the predominantly white parts of the city, but not Olive-Harvey or Kennedy-King. Or not Malcom X on the West Side of Chicago. I said free, nationally.
I’m sorry I have to be the one to tell you, but any inclusive program of economic and national development is going to involve more white people than anyone else because white people still are the largest and most predominant population group in the United States.
There are certain things I tell conservatives. I won’t put it as telling you, but put it in terms of what I tell other people.
Regarding outreach for minorities and what people call “affirmative action”, I tell them that what is happening to other people is not what is happening to them, I tell that they have to state and make demands as the what they want, not seek postulated takeaways from other people. I tell them in my special pithy way that “nothing for everyone” is never going to fly as a political agenda. I tell them that you really cannot have a situation where there are no black people and brown people in university programs and the professions. Furthermore, and most importantly, I tell them that even if they succeeded in eliminating minorities to a great extent especially from graduate and professional education and the careers that devolve from that, the available places would not go to them anyway but rather float up to the existing white upper middle class and to the progeny of elite immigrants.
There’s a lesson here if you want to take it. Don’t make what you know about another person what you make up about them in your own head.
Julian Abagond is a professional intellectual. I’m a professional intellectual even though I at present make no money at it. I imagine you would qualify as one also, I am not sure on what basis. You can say things. If you want educational and vocational opportunities for white people to be limited, you’re allowed to say so. If you want to whites out of graduate and professional education except for those with elite backgrounds, you are allowed to say so. I heard Willie Brown on a radio interview decades ago say exactly that in so many words.
I don’t know where you get the right-wing talking points thing. What you don’t get is that my talking points, while they pushback against your racially exclusive agenda, are also pushback against the right. My points are exactly what I said they are, inclusive, labor-oriented conservative populism.
Again, if there are some people you don’t want included, you can say so. When Eric Holder said he would like have an honest discussion of race in America, I thought, if he could carry on that discussion with me, it would be a very different discussion than he was envisioning. It would have very little, and preferably nothing, to do with how people feet about each other, and would have everything to do educational rights, employments rights and economic rights.
Let me kick out another idea and it is something that I also tell conservatives. My view of the issue of disadvantage is that all people for whom specific arrangements have not been made are disadvantaged. Well, that’s inclusive too. As noted, if you don’t want white people included, you’re allowed to say so.
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@ newworld3000
“If you want educational and vocational opportunities for white people to be limited, you’re allowed to say so. If you want to whites out of graduate and professional education except for those with elite backgrounds, you are allowed to say so…. As noted, if you don’t want white people included, you’re allowed to say so.”
Why do you assume no one responding to you is white?
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What you do has to be also politically palatable and politically doable. No form of single payer is doable, and furthermore too many people think it is not desirable. Your analysis has a lot to do with what you think is ideologically desirable as well, so of course you are going to load your arguments in favor of that which you think is also ideologically desirable.
But you did get to the bottomest of all bottom line, and something that I am very aware of too. You cannot have adverse selection and have an insurance system. You have to a way to make people pay into the system whether they want to or not. The way I put it, you can’t give a people a red button on their dashboard they can push to buy a million-dollar accident policy after they have just driven over a cliff.
The system runs on money and you have to get money into to make it work. You cannot have people pay into the health and medical insurance system only on the day the need it. Young people may think they will not need it and so don’t want to pay. Employers of part time and low wage workers don’t want to pay and don’t in the present situation need to. Presumably, they prefer to pass the expense on to someone else, either Medicaid (Medical where I live) or the employer paid policy of their employee’s spouse or parent. Or Medicare. Or just let the uninsured worker make do as they can, which if they are seriously ill usually means Medicaid. But they cannot be allowed to do that.
More substantial employers pay because they need to either because have union contracts or because they have to offer benefits to attract the elite workers their business needs to function.
I am not sure of your argument at all. I have held and insurance license. Admittledly I made little money in the business, but I did have a license. Along the way, I was told by someone who I think ought to know that medical insurance as such, meaning hospital coverage, is relatively cheap, but that it is the health part of it that is what costs. This individual was self-employed, and he said he had only medical or hospitalization but paid his ordinary health and dental costs for himself and his wife out of pocket. I hope I have the terminology here correct. It’s been a few years and you can correct it if it is wrong.
My objection to single payer or Medicare-for-all is ideological. Your objection to tax-based universal health insurance also is ideological. In both cases it has to do with managing society, not managing health care. As people put it, “pigs are pigs and parts are part.” Money is just money. The essential thing is to get enough money in the system.
My idea for how to deal with some of people’s discretionary needs is to give them an annual health slush fund (people know this as a health savings account) to cover outpatient primary care and specialist visits and little discretionary things like abortion and circumcision. I don’t know why you even brought up the latter. It seriously bothers me when someone seeks to set themselves up as an intrusive authority figure interfering the business of the family. Especially in the case of a procedure which is not exactly equal to brain surgery in its burden on the system.
My estimation is that abortion is the roadblock in the way of devising some solution to this issue. Conservatives might support tax-based univeral health insurance for the working poor and permanently unemployed, which is why concept actually cover, but they will not support it if it includes an abortion benefit. Liberal and leftists do not want to give this up. Nor give up health care as wedge issue without also gaining the control a single payer system would provide them. This is our age’s version of the irreconcilable conflict. It will not lead to where the other did, but it makes it impossible for the political system to deal with some large number of issues which might otherwise be tractable.
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I never know. I assume Afrofem is black and a woman, but maybe not. The others? Unless they say so, I don’t know. In response to your inquiry, white people who think white people should have their opportunities truncated exist too. In fact, most of the people who administer the present system are white. If you’er white and you want whites exluded, you’re allowed to say so. As I made note of already, we’re intellectuals here. We can handle it.
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@ newworld3000
Where has anyone here said they want the opportunities of white people to be truncated?
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@ newworld3000
” No form of single payer is doable, and furthermore too many people think it is not desirable.”
I repeat, If citizens of other countries such as Taiwan, Thailand, Costa Rica, South Korea, Germany, France, Canada and Cuba enjoy universal, single payor healthcare, Americans should also. Single payor should include every citizen—-everyone in, no one out.
For the record, supermajorities of Americans of all political persuasions are ready to cut out health insurance and move to the same cost effective health care system that other countries enjoy.
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Correction: Single payer, not single payor.
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@ Solitaire
No one said or suggested they wanted the opportunities of white people to be truncated. NW3000 has been derailing this thread with his rightwing word salad (e.g. “…inclusive, labor-oriented conservative populism.”) for some time now.
If you ask him one question, he (or she) merely responds with:
◎ distraction (why he or she disapproves of single payer healthcare)
◎ regurgitated rightwing talking points (e.g. school choice and market based solutions)
◎ nonsensical details to buttress weak arguments (“You cannot have people pay into the health and medical insurance system only on the day the need it.”)
In a last ditch effort to derail and distract, NW3000 is slouching into Broken Record territory with the classic, “Blacks are just as racist!” argument.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/05/29/blacks-are-just-as-racist/
It is a favorite for unaccountable commenters who have backed themselves into a rhetorical corner. “Truncated” opportunities for White people, indeed.
NW3000’s opportunities to merely make sense on this thread have been expansive and he has squandered them all.
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I am aghast at how newworld3000 pontificates from a standpoint of sheer ignorance and unfamiliarity with the topic. Sometimes we see erroneous pontifications from people who are wilfully obtuse, some who have a political or personal objective to create false narratives, and some who are just plain ignorant. At first I thought newworld3000 was one of the first two groups, but some of things he says makes me start to think it is the latter.
There are two parts to this statement. I know Afrofem addressed them above and my response largely reverberates with hers.
Regarding whether it is doable or not, we only have to look at the several dozen countries who have adopted a form of single payor system. Apart from the US, all (ie, every single one) of the major industrialized countries have adopted a form of single payor. As other countries develop and design and implement health care financing and delivery systems, they invariably adopt a single payor approach. They DO consider the US approach when they are evaluating systems and categorically reject such a system. No country thus far has regretted not adopting a US-based approach.
One of the biggest problems with the multi-payor, largely unregulated approach in the US, apart from the funneling of money into insurer and drug company pockets is the administrative nightmare. Every single healthcare provider has to be concerned with how they will be paid. I worked for the finance department of a hospital in the US. I can concur it is just about the most unnecessarily complicated and administratively cumbersome process there is. Not only that, but we have an army of executives at health insurance companies whose job is to refuse or reduce reimbursements.
Anyone who suggests that a single payor healthcare program is not doable is simply living in an alternate universe or another planet. Even a wilfully obtuse person would have to admit that it works in other countries.
Now, is the current US approach “doable”? Well, that approach is indeed being done, so even single payor advocates must admit that the US approach is a doable one. It just creates a slew of outcomes that even wilfully obtuse people will have to admit are “undesirable”.
Regarding whether a single payor system is desirable or not, Afrofem has already pointed out that the overwhelming majority of the US electorate prefer such an arrangement. I would add that not only Americans prefer such an arrangement, but so does every other country that have established a single payor form of system. Maybe we can look at who would not desire such a system. I immediately think of entities such as health insurance company executives, private hospitals and clinics (and doctors who rely on them to treat their patients), pharmaceutical companies, medical technology companies, not to mention all the lobbyists representing these entities. US politicians who enjoy good healthcare on the taxpayer’s dime and who enjoy kickbacks from these industries are also not too desirable to move to single payor.
But everyone else is.
There is an ideological aspect to formulating a policy approach to anything.
First of all, I would like to refute a mischaracterization of my position. I do not object to a tax-based universal health insurance system. In fact, this is one way to do it, and I would be in favor of it if the electorate prefers that approach. What I object to is a tax-based healthcare system which funnels the tax receipts through private health care insurers who control the financing, access and delivery of health care to the general public, and pocket as much of the proceeds as they can. That is a nightmare.
Regarding policy formulation, it does take into account an ideological perspective. What I would like to ask is, why are some public goods funded on the taxpayer’s dime and some not.
Examples of public goods funded by taxpayers:
– public security (eg, police, national guard, fire services)
– transportation infrastructure (roads, highways, bridges, bicycle lanes, pedestrian overpasses, canals, shipping ports, airports)
– public transportation (public buses, streetcars, light rail, heavy duty metrorail, monorail)
– Primary and secondary education
– Waste, refuse collection and disposal
– rainwater and sewage drainage systems and treatment plants
– criminal justice system (courts, jails)
– national security (military, intelligence, etc.)
– immigration
– involuntary unemployment income replacement schemes
– national parks
– disaster relief
– Social security old age, disability income replacement programs
Some of these have co-payments by users at point of service, eg, national parks have entry fees, immigration charges for passports and visas, etc. Most of these public provided services are not provided equally across the population however.
Why do we not arrange fire protection services through a system of private providers and private insurance? Those who avail of fire protection can simply purchase insurance for coverage or choose to pay out of pocket. A private service provider can provide the equipment of personnel and equipment to perform the services. Anyone who receives fire protection services will receive a bill from the service provider and they will either pay the bill directly or try to settle with their insurance provider. This system is technically “doable”. Prior to organizing a publicly provided fire protection services system, undoubtedly only private systems were in operation.
However, it was decided that a purely private system of fire services protection did not serve the public good. It makes no sense if the private service provider provided service, say to units A, B, F and G on a block and refused it to Units C, D, E and H. The fire would not only consume those units, but spread to all the units in the adjoining blocks anyhow. The private market would not serve the public good.
This is an ideological decision that determined public policy.
They could try to get around it by concentrating those who “deserve” service protection in one section of a city and put the rest in a district who do not deserve. So, in other words, let one district burn and only make sure it does not spread into the deserving districts. In fact, this is an ongoing problem with publicly provided services, and we see it repeated in things like police protection and disaster relief and refuse management.
Still, even under that arrangement, the private market fails to achieve an ideologically acceptable position, and it is decided that a publicly arranged system, however imperfect it is, is the preferred option.
Why does this not apply to healthcare?
It may be an ideological position that it is more desirable to have a large swath of the population uninsured, or underinsured, and deny them coverage for services that are already available in the system, and allow companies and individuals in certain industries profit handsomely off of it. There are also some other “socially desirable outcomes” (???) resulting from this, such as higher infant mortality for black and brown babies, lower life expectancy from these groups, etc. It seems perverse that an ideologically driven policy pushes mothers to keep their pregnancy to term and then let the babies die. I guess this makes more money, yet produces the outcome of fewer black and brown people in the population.
However, even ideologically driven parties must admit that there are some undesirable outcomes. For example, the implications that this has for maintaining a stable and productive workforce, or other implications for public health (eg, epidemics). More on that later.
We face a situation where a slice of the electorate has an ideological perspective that a single payor universal fire protection services system which does not disproportionately benefit certain industries is socially desirable, but a single payor universal health care protection services system is not. How do we explain this discrepancy here?
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^ I hope that people can understand why “Medicare for those who want it” makes about as much sense as “Fire Service protection for those who want it” or even a public v. private option for such services.
If fire services were run that way, we indeed would have a two-tiered system where one group of people enjoy superior fire protection, and the majority “enjoy” a cr@ppy system which saves you only if failing to save you endangers the life and property of the privileged people.
That might be acceptable for some goods, eg, use of tennis courts. Those who can afford to join private clubs get unlimited access and superior service and hobnob with the rich and powerful. Those who must go to the public court may have to book weeks in advance, and receive poor service. But that is not a life and death situation like fire services protection and healthcare.
It might be an ideological perspective, but I hope people will recognize it as terrible public policy.
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@Afrofem
No, you originally used “payor” correctly. newworld3000 has consistently been using it wrong. This is why I highly suspect he knows much about the health insurance industry, as anyone with experience in that industry would not make that mistake.
Payor vs Payer – What’s the difference?
https://wikidiff.com/payor/payer
We are talking about single PAYOR programs, not single PAYER programs.
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Now that Abagond has brought up about one system of dividing the USA into haves and have-nots (ie, Redlining), it might be good if he does some more, especially how it relates to health care, education, transportation, etc. Redlining is just one aspect of methods with implications for banking, financing and credit, insurance, the housing market, and the provision of public and commercial services.
But I notice that Abagond thus far has been eerily silent about the Wuhan coronavirus (aka Cov-19) global pandemic and implications for the US.
Epidemics are a matter of both health care systems and public security. Global pandemics also involve diplomacy and international relations.
If you want to see this dramatized, please see Contagion (2011), which explores what a potential global pandemic might look like.
I have followed a few things put forth by Wendell Potter, a former health insurance executive in charge of public relations and marketing for some 30 years. He left the field a few years ago to educate the public that what he did for many years was morally wrong, and now advocates for single payor universal health programs.
I followed a few things he said last year well before this coronavirus outbreak (when he was discussing Medicare for all, v. the alternative proposals), but he has some stern words about how the US system is equipped to handle global pandemics.
Wendell Potter on Bernie ruling out anti-M4A VP pick
Former healthcare executive, Wendell Potter, talks about support for M4A.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv4kW6LdNGk)
The US healthcare system is woefully ill-prepared for a global pandemic. South Korea does more virus tests in a single day than the US has done in total over the whole course of the epidemic.
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Thanks, Jefe re: payer vs. payor. I failed to do my own spelling and context research on that word.
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“…[Potter] has some stern words about how the US system is equipped to handle global pandemics.”
Potter’s comments re: COVID-19 start in earnest on the video at 8:15.
The ongoing COVID-19 is shining a bright light on festering issues within the US public health system. One is the exhorbitant cost of testing for the virus, quarantine costs and other medical charges.
A Common Dreams article cited a NY Times article that described the nearly $3,000.00 one family was charged after leaving US government mandated quarantine. The Times writer noted:
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/03/02/why-are-we-being-charged-surprise-bills-coronavirus-testing-spark-calls-government
There are already calls from economists and some politicians for the government, financial and real estate sectors to shoulder the costs of the pandemic. This article published on the financial site Naked Capitalism is quite thought provoking: “Banks and Landlords Have To Pick Up the Costs of the Pandemic To Come to Forestall a Depression”.
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2020/03/banks-and-landlords-have-to-pick-up-the-costs-of-the-pandemic-to-come-to-forestall-a-depression.html
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You can write a half-million word book if you want in defense of the single-payer concept and at the end of the day the issue is still social ideology. You want single payer because it is in conformity with your social ideology. I concede that the idea I favor, which I call tax-based universal health insurance, I support because it is consistent with my social ideology based ultimately on the Platonic order.
The issue in my mind is the matter of money. Get enough money into the system and you then don’t have the issues of costs and denial of care hanging over everyone’s head. I don’t doubt that that single payer would work. I only argue that it is inconsistent with American society. It is a front for a program of social engineering. I have another idea about how to do it which does not envision eviscerating the existing middle and upper middle class which seems to be satisfied with the system they have. The number of permanently uninsured are not that large and there is no reason to tear down everything to fix the problem.
Beyond that, the idea behind the Platonic order is that there is a system and that the objective is to bring people into it. It is very telling what I said in 2008 about Barack Obama’s change concept. I said, no we do not need change. Rather, we desperately need to keep things the same. What we need to is bring the people who are outside of the order of our society into the system.
Meanwhile, you might want to know that I have other things to do, notably finish my graduate thesis. I want to get this done before I come down with dementia like Joe Biden, Donald Trump, Nancy Pelosi and all the rest of those people.
I am sure you have figured out by now that I am never going to run out of talking points but I am going to have to drop out of the discussion for a while. You and the other people in the forum can go on with your over-the-back-fence whispering campaign if you want but I am going to have to put everything from Abagond in a folder and deal with it later. What I think would be more useful to you would be discussing the conservative-populist talking points I outlined and what the impact of these ideas if they became policy would and would not be. Especially on the daily economic life of people in America. The points are in no particular order. I numbered them to separate them.
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Gee, instead of the Civil war, we simply could have folded in Chinese labourers, displaced Chicanos and pesky new migrants from the bowels of Europe into the existing slavery system designed for people of African descent. That would have helped maintain the wealth of assets and supply of labour to the land-owning upper middle class who were more or less happy with the system as it was, and maintain the best aspects of true American society.
And as some unknown great thinker of the time once said,
There you have it. Win-win.
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“The issue in my mind is the matter of money. Get enough money into the system and you then don’t have the issues of costs and denial of care hanging over everyone’s head.”
Did you not bother to look at the Wendall Potter video?
There is currently plenty of money in the “system”. The issues of costs and denial of care occur because the money is being hoovered out of consumer pockets and hoarded by:
◎ health insurance executives
◎ private equity firms that own doctor’s practices & ambulance firms
◎ hospital administrators
◎ medical device firm executives
◎ pharmaceutical executives
Money is also not an issue for the US government. The US has a sovereign currency in the dollar. The USA is able to print paper money, mint coins and create electronic dollars at will.
The banking sector was bailed out in 2009 (and beyond) with that sovereign currency. The military-industrial complex maintains its perma-wars with that sovereign currency. Profitable oil and gas companies are subsidized by the US government with that sovereign currency.
It is telling that the same people who talk about providing medical care for all of the people of the US as not “doable”, are entirely silent about the uses of US dollars for big banks, big oil and big guns.
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Further to Afrofem’s
It is not only the public health system, but also the political will of government officials and public security systems to enforce it.
Cancel Everything
Social distancing is the only way to stop the coronavirus. We must start immediately.
(https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/coronavirus-cancel-everything/607675/)
Italy is under complete lockdown.
Given the state of the US’s healthcare system, we need SF, LA, NYC/Westchester, DC/MD/VA, and esp. metro Seattle need to do this NOW! If there are more than a couple of confirmed cases elsewhere, then they need to do it too.
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@ jefe
All of those are heavily Democratic areas.
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@ jefe
“Social distancing is the only way to stop the coronavirus. We must start immediately.”
But for how long?
For a short while it will work certainly but can society survive operating longer periods (months, years) that way?
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@ abagond
All of those are heavily Democratic areas.
What do you mean?
That somebody is already manipulating the spread of the disease for political gains (less votes of the opposite side in the coming elections)?
Or do you mean that the local authorities (who are Democrats, I suppose) in those places are being particularly incompetent in dealing with the spread of the epidemic?
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I see that those metro areas are seats of money and power. A complete lockdown would endanger that. (Although I would argue that decisive action would benefit them in the long run. If hundreds of thousands in each of those metro areas catch the virus and tens of thousands in each die, I don’t see that benefiting their money and power).
They just happen to be heavily democratic.
I also wonder if the Covid-19 epidemic was a factor in the Democratic primary results, putting more faith in unfettered capitalism and the money and power establishment.
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In the Seattle area, people who have the option to work remotely/telecommute are doing that to avoid large groups. Some local universities have suspended in- person classes. Ditto for some primary and secondary schools.
While there is some low-level panic buying of essentials like:
⇒ toilet paper
⇒ over-the-counter cold and flu remedies
⇒ face masks
⇒ thermometers
⇒ hand sanitizer
⇒ beans and rice (!)
grocery store shelves are fairly well stocked.
A neighbor just remarked about how empty downtown Seattle is right now. That area is usually jam packed with cars, buses, bicycles and pedestrians. She was surprised at how many parking spaces were available in the retail core. A real rarity.
I’ve noticed fewer people just strolling on neighborhood streets, even in good weather. While all of this is far from a “lockdown”, many people in Seattle are taking COVID-19 quite seriously.
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I think this is incidental correlation, not causative correlation.
They also happen to be large US metro areas with direct air travel access to multiple cities in China. We expect them to appear here first.
I’ll try to switch any more comments to the new post.
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munubantu
I am in Hong Kong.
Schools in HK (including preschools to universities) were shut down since Chinese New Year (over 6 weeks since Jan 25) and will be shut down for at least 6 more weeks (until April 20), and will evaluate again at that time. That is already 3 full months.
Conventions, trade shows, festivals are cancelled.
Libraries, pools, community sports centres, senior centres, all shut down indefinitely.
Even the post office was entirely shut down for an full week, then operated a reduced schedule and delivered mail only every other day. Every customer is checked for fever upon entering.
The vast majority of the civil service was not allowed to come into work, except for essential services. This lasted for 6 weeks, and some modified arrangement is in place now to allow them to come back to work in shifts.
Most businesses that don’t require face to face contact with customers were also moved to a work from home arrangement.
Any persons entering from mainland China were subject to mandatory 14 day quarantines. Visitors from South Korea, Italy and Iran. If France, Egypt and USA get any worse, I suspect that they will ban them too. Most cases now are not community spread, but imported from outside.
Most churches are not holding services. You can attend by live internet feeds.
95% of people on the street wear masks, although I do agree that this behaviour is less effective in controlling the spread compared to social distancing, hand hygiene and frequent disinfection of surfaces. However, it keeps the vigiilant awareness up.
Testing for coronavirus is now free for all in HK.
This, still is not nearly as draconian as mainland China. They employed poice and civil force to force people, even lock them into their homes. In HK, people are still quite free to go out on the street. But we have already been on semi-lockdown for over 6 weeks.
But US cannot test people fast enough, and thus the contact tracing is not very useful. It is already widely spread in the community.
Note to Abagond: just replying to the comment, I will put any new comments in your new post.
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@ munubantu
I mean that Trump might do to them what he did to Puerto Rico after Hurricane Maria or what Bush did to Black New Orleans after Katrina: malign neglect.
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@ Abagond
Thank you for clarifying. I didn’t catch your meaning, either.
And it’s a good observation. Trump has already threatened to withhold federal emergency funds from liberal areas, like California during the wildfires.
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@ abagond
(emphasis added)
Frankly, if this is the case then you are entering a fascist-like state or dictatorship as a nation.
Often I tend to dismiss your nightmares of possible bad futures for the USA, but definitely, if such a tendency gains strength in the coming years, then you are on a very dangerous path to a dystopian near future of less freedom.
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Seattle, maybe.
DC and NY, I think not. That is where the media are, his properties, congressmen and white house staff.
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@Afrofem
This video explains it in further detail, including how we got here. In fact, they say this very thing @13:00
Why Medical Bills In The US Are So Expensive
(https://youtu.be/3NvnOUcG-ZI)
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@ jefe
Thanks for the link.
I feel CNBC mischaracterized the situation as a “tug of war” between doctors, insurers, drug companies, hospitals and shareholders of healthcare corps, with American consumers in the middle.
I think a better description is that of a feeding trough. For all of these groups, consumers are just so much slop to be gobbled down. They occasionally jostle one another at the trough, but they are all determined to devour as much as possible for as long as possible.
Also missing from the video is the role of private equity firms. They have been buying up doctor’s groups (especially Emergency Room doctors and Obstetricians) plus ambulance firms and leasing them to hospitals for fat profits.
The investigative site, ProPublica, dug deep into their practices in this article:
“This Doctors Group Is Owned by a Private Equity Firm and Repeatedly Sued the Poor Until We Called Them”.
https://www.propublica.org/article/this-doctors-group-is-owned-by-a-private-equity-firm-and-repeatedly-sued-the-poor-until-we-called-them
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