Disclaimer: This post is based on episodes 2, 5, and 6, half of those shown so far.
“Pose” (2018- ) is a US television show on FX centred on five transgender women of colour – played by five transgender women of colour. Radical, I know. It is pretty much “Paris Is Burning” (1991) made into a television show, with some straight White characters added. It takes place in New York of the late 1980s: greed is good, AIDS, the ballroom scene, Patrick Nagel paintings, etc. “Pose” was created by Ryan Murphy, a White gay man who gave us the hit show “Glee” (2009-15).
“Pose” made history last Sunday (July 8th 2018): its sixth episode, “Love Is the Message”, was the first episode of US television ever written and directed by a trans woman of colour – Janet Mock.
It is the first show on US television I have seen where someone smells the milk before using it. And unlike “Friends” (1994-2004), New York is not full of White people who live in nice apartments. Some White people even live in New Jersey! You know, like in Real Life.
Representation matters not just for Black people but even more for trans people. Transphobia, internal and external, is worse than racism. So trans people writing, directing and acting their own stories matters. Even well-meaning cisgender allies get things wrong. Ryan Murphy seems to understand all this.
Single story: “Pose” goes one step further by having not one but five trans characters and putting them centre stage. That allows the show to avoid tokenism, the single story, and much of the cis gaze. Instead of gawking at trans people like they were zoo animals (there is arguably some of that), or medical curiosities (some of that too), you can put yourself in their shoes. The way it should be.
There are also some White straight characters and Black gay ones. Some get more lines than some of the trans characters.
More than a worthy effort: It is also turns out to be one of the better shows on television. Not just in my opinion: according to Rotten Tomatoes, 96% of critics liked it. As with “I’ll Fly Away” (1991-93) and “My So-Called Life” (1994-95), it is so good that I am afraid they will cancel it. So I am watching as much of it as I can while it is still on.
It goes beyond mere soap opera or spectacle. Ironies abound, like about motherhood and realness. An affair by a White man, which on most shows would have been the A plot, is the B plot – and its best scenes take place in a diner, not in bed. Janet Mock’s episode made a better use of the song “Home” than even “The Wiz” did. My heart breaks in pieces just thinking about it.
Period piece: Something both me and Janet Mock remember from the late 1980s is the Crack Era. Crack, not AIDS, was the big threat. But on “Pose” it barely registers.
– Abagond, 2018.
See also:
- Mj Rodriguez ft Billy Porter: Home – a clip from the Janet Mock episode
- television shows
- representation matters
- single story
- Janet Mock
- trans women
- The Wiz
- Stephanie Mills: Home
535
Abagond 
I haven’t seen any episodes yet, but that gif alone is more powerful than many tv shows.
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Reblogged this on League of Bloggers For a Better World.
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I don’t normally watch this type of show, but I’m liking it, so far.
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I was unaware of the show, but will see if I find it to watch this weekend.
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‘Rainbow is the New Black’, it’s just another myth designed to draw public attention from more serious issues, such as climate change, government over-protectionism, racial prejudices and social injustice to a wider spread – and less influential – matter of private things people want – or choose not – to have in their beds.
Seriously, ¿are you guys t.h.a.t. gullible?
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@ A Russian Nagpo
People are murdered for being trans in the U.S. every year. That’s not a serious issue?
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It’s so bad it’s good i like Blanca and Angel. I had to pull the plug on my cable. But I am hoping I can get it on Amazon Prime.
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I love that Janet Mock is helping in the creative process of the show. She’s so lovely.
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@Solitaire
It’s beyond sad and was actually a big issue here in DC area than ever exposed by the media or news.
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is* Because I know how matters like this are forgotten and let slide…..
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Yeah, being a queer is what automatically makes you a martyr – an lbgt person cannot be beaten or killed because of getting horny on a wrong object or just because of being a crappy person, but rather and only because of white straight Anglo-Saxon male protestants who are all innately evil and wicked as all the whites are,
because those conspiring whites need a lgbt person sacrificed every now and then; and no straight person has any right to show his or her disgust against any type of behaviour or practice, even if it is against personal believes and values;
everybody is o.b.l.i.g.e.d. to like everybody, the lbgt people included, or at least no one is entitled for showing any disapproval, because it’s a sacred raspberry rainbow, ‘a new black’, the holy egestas of sacred unicorns — and woe to those who dare to refuse;
recognising homosexuality as a symptom – and not as a disease, as it had used formerly to be under the WHO standards – is what makes it a norm, because now it’s an officially accepted rainbow and because ‘race’ equals ‘sex’—-
Have I missed any part of the common nonsense in which this toxic virus of so-called ‘lbgt rights movement’ is usually shrouded?
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@ A Russian Nagpo
“an lbgt person cannot be beaten or killed because of getting horny on a wrong object”
Funny how women are not given the same leeway to beat or kill men who get horny with us over our objections.
As a woman, I know there are many other ways to deal with someone who makes an unwanted pass at you. Beating and killing are not the only options.
“no straight person has any right to show his or her disgust against any type of behaviour or practice, even if it is against personal believes and values”
Not when it infringes on someone’s civil rights or endangers their life.
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@ A Russian Nagpo
*”but rather and only because of white straight Anglo-Saxon male protestants who are all innately evil and wicked as all the whites are,
because those conspiring whites need a lgbt person sacrificed every now and then”
I never said a word about whites.
How interesting that this is your knee-jerk reaction.
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Exactly! ‘A jerk’ is a better word. A lbgt is most likely to be disposed of to a next rebirth not because of being a lbgt, but rather because of being a jerk.
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@Solitaire
What are you talking about? Black people are getting killed every year not trans people. Also transphobia is not worst than racism/white supremacy.
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@ John
Black people are getting killed every year. Heck every day, but that doesn’t change or excuse the fact that trans people are also. Transphobia can be worse in the sense that black trans people are subject to the racism/white supremecy and the hate from their own people.
https://www.google.com/amp/www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-transgender-homicides-20171117-story.html%3foutputType=amp
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@ John
The largest percentage of trans people murdered every year are black.
“Also transphobia is not worst than racism/white supremacy.”
Quote me where I said that it was.
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@ A Russian Nagpo
Since when is “being a jerk” a capital offense?
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@ solitare.
Uh no they are not as we have clearly we clearly see black non trans people are. The police are the number 1 killers along with several racists here threw the united states. I was talking about abagong not u. My mistake I didn’t clarify who it was for.
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Brainwashed Kneegroes in America does some of the most asinine things. This tell-lie-vision show is actually an attack on Black people. It’s an attack because the show’s narrative goes full throttle to push an effeminate spirit primarily among Black men.
There is nothing more threatening to today’s white man than a straight Black man with all of his faculties (unlike Kanye) in place and a refusal to bow or bend to Esau’s societal pressures, in order to be accepted by them (Esau/Edom/Idumea). Yes, the Book was given only to you Kneegroes!
It is an assault targeting Kneegroes because through the clever utilization of the tool of psychological labelling and profiling, the mass effect of tell-lie-vision, the Black man’s overall character not only takes a significant hit, but in reality, a pummelling. And down to the canvas the Black man goes.
It’s an attack on the psyche of Black folk in general, but men in particular. Tell-lie-vision shows such as “Pose” is in fact a soft attack against the Kneegroe because Esau knows what biblical time it is. Trust me, the white man (Esau) knows the Bible a whole lot better than the people whom it was originally given to.
To me, I surmise that to the outside world, we as so-called African Americans are looked upon as a hodgepodge of degenerates or in the alternative, a debauched group un-tethered by social and/or spiritual moorings.
It appears that you can throw a glittering sword at Kneegroes and in all likelihood he’ll stand there ready to catch it because he thinks it’s a glittering frisbee thrown in his direction by his supposed “white friend.” No Kneegroe! You are only being softened up for the kill through mass broadcasting, indoctrination, conditioning and you better quit slumbering and move out of the way of what you think is a harmless frisbee tossed in your direction.
Yes, in all of its ingloriousness or even a state of collective nadir, the mind of the average American Kneegrow is absolutely fascinating, ….. absolutely fascinating!
@Solitaire said: “@ A Russian Nagpo, People are murdered for being trans in the U.S. every year. That’s not a serious issue?”
Chuckles! Look who’s talking. Esau, your people (white people), have killed more people and essentially terminated more cultures on this earth than any other group of people, especially those of Kneegroe descent. I wouldn’t dare break out some statistics because it’ll only make my stomach churn. Now, here comes Solitaire in July 2018, pretending as if she’s of the stock or ilk of a people who hasn’t even killed a mere fly on the wall. Sheer foolishness and a preposterous assumption!
@Solitaire then asked: “@ A Russian Nagpo, Since when is “being a jerk” a capital offense?
Chuckles again! “Being a jerk” is in fact a capital offense when a coward white cop shoots an unarmed, so-called African American male or a white cop (Oklahoma) who rape a so-called African American female while on duty in the back of his patrol car. Here in Amerika, there are countless incidents of “capital offenses committed by YOUR people within the annals of history, it’s just no referred to as such in wicked arse Amerika!
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@ Blakksage
“your people (white people), have killed more people and essentially terminated more cultures on this earth than any other group of people”
I have never denied or refuted that fact.
I believe whites are responsible for the murderous attitude towards trans people in this society, due to whites’ interpretation of the Bible.
“Now, here comes Solitaire in July 2018, pretending as if she’s of the stock or ilk of a people who hasn’t even killed a mere fly on the wall.”
I have been honest and forthright about what race I am from the moment I started commenting here.
Blakksage, it was only a little over a year ago that you mistook me for a black woman:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2017/06/27/is-scribh-a-troll/#comment-375092
And I clarified that I was white in my reply to you:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2017/06/27/is-scribh-a-troll/#comment-375113
A Russian Nagpo is also white, although he doesn’t like to admit it. Similar to Lord of Mirkwood, he claims that his specific (European) ethnicity means he’s not “really” white. But look how he went off on me above for supposedly attacking white men.
“‘Being a jerk’ is in fact a capital offense when a coward white cop shoots an unarmed, so-called African American male”
No, those acts are still murder. There is no law on the books that I’m aware of that says “being a jerk” is a capital offense.
Those police officers are getting away with their crimes by pulling the “I feared for my life” defense and due to racism in the court system.
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@abagond
I for one appreciate you writing this piece and taking this approach. Many in the black community can be very transphobic and homophobic.
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Eh well i’m almost on board with blakksage in that there is an extreme bent in hollywood towards what i’d call almost if not a gay agenda. To wit: a newer movie “Chips,” from the tv show. I fell asleep during it but there was basically no jokes even related to the storyline but homophobia, gay sight gags, obsessive masturbation, etc. I don’t think it’s targetting blacks exclusively? Examples abound. I mean where did show tunes come from, i get it but it’s like so out there and everyone has to be accepted, i’d say since the ableism push. Transexuals? Again, it’s makes everything more complicated, and is it just freeing yourself or extensive body mod. So many tattoos these days, in reality idk what to think but i’m not going to let tv be the defining authority.
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FYI, Ryan Murphy is a creator on Pose and is a big reason the show got on the air but the show was conceived by a young gay writer of color named Steven Canales. That’s the reason the show is so authentic and inclusive.
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V8
There is nothing new under the sun, which is why I don’t really look at such tv shows as “pushing a gay agenda”. They were always here. Representation is important. Not just for heterosexuals.
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@ sharinalr
You can’t equate one groups oppression level to another groups oppression level. Sure they become targets but they can change that unlike black people who will always be black and always a target. Whites and people who support white supremacy (can be any group of people even trans and homosexuals) fear what black people can do and be which is why they continue to target us even if we get a good job and abide by the law they still see us as 3/5 of a human being no matter how many times we try to show them we are the same as them. Black trans people are targeted by Racism/white supremacy only cause they are black no matter if they are straight or not, hell they get discriminated in the LBGQT community. The reason the black community are against it is because they don’t agree with the lifestyle and it is a mental illness in which trans people degrade themselves and hate who they are to be something they are not and can’t be. Then they become imposters and deceivers trying to live a life they no is a lie which pisses a lot people off who react violently when they find out the truth after its too late. I don’t agree with them getting killed but they need some kind of help.
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Representation is important and I respect that.
That said much of what Blacksage wrote about in regards to the “effeminate culture” I agree with.
Straight black alpha males are more likely to be shot, incarcerated, attacked and discriminated against. That’s what white supremacy fears not trans people.
500 years of destroying black identity and now
gay and trans black people are modeled culturally.
So while being gay or trans is not a bad thing and any individuals personal choice and right, what is missing culturally across the board in our society is real men.
Our society artificially supports beta males.
That is in part why Western society is weak and ultimately unsustainable. Even beta males think they are discriminated against thus the men’s rights movement.
So we have the soft cancer of the left and the hard cancer of the right ideologically reinventing what families should look and act like in spite of 10,000 years of family precedent.
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@ MJB
“That’s what white supremacy fears not trans people.”
I don’t see anywhere in the post that Abagond says white supremacy fears trans people. This is instead straight society fearing trans people.
It is not white supremacy that oppresses women but male supremacy. It is not white supremacy that oppresses the disabled but an ableist society. Oppression takes various forms, hence intersectionality.
“what is missing culturally across the board in our society is real men.”
How do you define real men? And please go into more detail than just saying alpha male versus beta male. What characteristics define a “real man”?
“reinventing what families should look and act like in spite of 10,000 years of family precedent.”
One man married to two or more women?
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I see you’ve laid traps and land mines everywhere so I’ll attempt to get through them.
Solitare: “One man married to two or more women?”
No. That said I don’t think our society has a right to interfer with force with communities that do practice polygamy, whether they be fundamendalist LDS here or Muslims elsewhere.
Many early agrarian societies practiced polygamy as a means of survival. Much of mans early history was spent spending a considerable amount of time hunting, gathering and growing food. More family members meant a greater divison of labor.
I think there is a difference between modern religious patriarchy and the communal patriarchy of earlier times.
Solitare : “I don’t see anywhere in the post that Abagond says white supremacy fears trans people. This is instead straight society fearing trans people.’
I am giving my opinion. Secular straight society in the U.S. doesn’t fear trans or gay people. Only religious and bigoted people do.
Solitare: “It is not white supremacy that oppresses women but male supremacy.”
So male supremacy oppresses women of color not white supremacy ? Many Jim Crow laws were written to “protect” white women. White woman are just as responsible as white males when it comes to the history of white supremacy in the U.S. and the West.
If the roles were switched and women dominated in our society it would still be just as racist.
Solitare: “Oppression takes various forms, hence intersectionality.”
No disagreement there. This shouldn’t be an oppression olympic debate. That said the greater evil to me is the Western Imperlaisim of the last few hundred years that continues to this day. So while the rights of women have improved within Western culture (particularly white women) that can’t be said for the millions of people, killed and displaced and the trillions of resources stolen.
Solitare: “How do you define real men? And please go into more detail than just saying alpha male versus beta male. What characteristics define a “real man”?”
That’s easy: An alpha male is secure with himself and takes charge of the situation.
Beta males are followers and it is there insecurities that fuel there need to control.
A real man is a man of his word and isn’t morally compromised by the society around him. A real man shows respect for elders, women, and has developed a set of ethics that guides and contains his decisions. He is a provider of his family, has a work ethic and isn’t afraid to show grief or stand up for the marginalized and weak. He raises his children in his own image and when he dies he is gathered unto his fathers.
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@ MJB
If you didn’t mean polygamy, what exactly were you referring to by “10,000 years of precedent” as to “what families should look and act like”?
“Secular straight society in the U.S. doesn’t fear trans or gay people. Only religious and bigoted people do.”
I disagree. It wasn’t that long ago that secular straight society was very anti-LGBTQ. You and I both lived through the change. While things have gotten better, there is still a lot of anti-LGBTQ sentiment, and it does not all come from religious people. There are still laws on the books that discriminate against LGBTQ people. There is still a lot of heteronormative and cisnormative behavior from service providers like doctors. And so on.
“So male supremacy oppresses women of color not white supremacy ?”
Male supremacy oppresses women of color as women. White supremacy oppresses women of color as people of color. They get a double whammy.
“Many Jim Crow laws were written to ‘protect’ white women.”
True. But other laws written at the same time protected men. The laws that gave a husband control of all his wife’s property and earnings, the laws that made it legal for a husband to beat his wife, the laws that said it was impossible for a husband to rape his wife — these all applied to free people of color.
“If the roles were switched and women dominated in our society it would still be just as racist.”
I never said it wouldn’t. If the roles were switched and men of color dominated our society, would it be any less sexist?
“That said the greater evil to me is the Western Imperlaisim of the last few hundred years that continues to this day. So while the rights of women have improved within Western culture (particularly white women) that can’t be said for the millions of people, killed and displaced and the trillions of resources stolen.”
Sexism is not a Western construct. Look around the world, look through history, and see how widespread the oppression of women has been and still is. It has been with humanity much longer than racism. Is the cost calculable?
Perhaps they are equally evil.
“That’s easy: An alpha male is secure with himself and takes charge of the situation.”
“Beta males are followers and it is there insecurities that fuel there need to control.”
But why make this a division between two types of men? Isn’t this equally true of women, that some are leaders and others followers? Isn’t this just a human trait?
“A real man is a man of his word and isn’t morally compromised by the society around him. A real man shows respect for elders, women, and has developed a set of ethics that guides and contains his decisions. He is a provider of his family, has a work ethic and isn’t afraid to show grief or stand up for the marginalized and weak. He raises his children in his own image and when he dies he is gathered unto his fathers.”
Thank you for the definition. You said earlier these men are “missing culturally across the board in our society.” How so?
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@Sharina
“But why make this a division between two types of men? Isn’t this equally true of women, that some are leaders and others followers? Isn’t this just a human trait?”
Exactly. Leaders need followers otherwise they will have nobody to lead. Often we’ll start devaluing one side of these equations while forgetting that the sides are actually interdependent.
Anyway, LGBT visbility isn’t a threat to straight people anymore than a black president meant enslavement of whites. This isn’t some new thing that is being “encouraged”. LGBT people have always existed; EVERYWHERE; whether as two-spirits among Native Americans, or Leitis among Tongans or Fa’afafine among Samoans or Sekhet among Ancient Egyptians or yan daudu among the Hausa in Northern Nigeria.
Clearly they must also exist, in an oppressed state, in places that unjustly outlaw their very being. With a little thought, one realizes this is a deeply inhumane thing to do. Deities, “angels of light”, that order this are under suspicion as demons in disguise who are really giving us the space to express some of our worst without reservation. But perhaps the time for that has passed.
Really, it’s not terribly complicated. There is hardly any human trait (e.g height, skin color, hair texture) that only manifests as two states (short/tall, dark/fair, straight/kinky) without the intermediate gradations also appearing in some individuals. Sexuality is the same as everything else. It is following the same rules.
Sometimes a culture considers the middle values of a trait normal and the extremes anomalous (eg. height), sometimes we consider the extremes normal and the middle anomalous (eg. sexuality), sometimes we accept the variation (eg. hair texture). However, nature doesn’t care whether the existence of the intermediate values challenges our mode of thinking. They are brought into existence and we are not consulted.
We may then shake our fist at reality; we may rail at the irrefutable manifest design of the supreme; we may prophesy license to annihilate that which we deem unfit; we may bloody our hands, yet in the tragic game of whac-a-mole, we change nothing but ourselves. The Design is unfazed, the sun rises again, and just as its white rays split into every shade of the rainbow, variation of every principle persists.
Oh, how pleasant would be the quiet sound of our maturation past our present tantrums? When we rediscover our ability to observe the verdant garden of existence and cease presumptuosly judging it as unworthy of us. I can certainly imagine that, and it would be nice.
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Oops, should have been @Solitaire not @Sharina.
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@ Origin
Poetically said, and very well.
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@Origin.
Thanks for more examples of the dubious genders in other cultures. Here’s what I think about the issue and the series – my entire comment is under the next post.
‘Let’s make it clear: politics are about power, and sex is about love. To mix sex and power – and this is what the people supporting the ‘lbgt rights’ nonsense are doing – is to support violence. Rainbow is not ‘A New Black’, it’s a New Grey Brown.
The support of lbgt is actually encouraged, at least as the makers of this show put it. It’s about power distribution, ‘lbgt civil rights’ and that kind of rhetoric.
Being gay is not just about ‘men loving men’, it’s more about ‘men hating women’. Consequently, being pink is not just about ‘women loving women’, it’s more about ‘women hating men’. Their ‘supporters’ don’t support love, they support hate.
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@John
“You can’t equate one groups oppression level to another groups oppression level.”—You can’t which is why the black transgenders oppression is unique in that they get the oppression from whites and also from the black community. There oppression isn’t less than any other black person.
“Sure they become targets but they can change that unlike black people who will always be black and always a target.”—Once they have the surgery they can’t change that. That transgender woman becomes subject to then sexism along with transgender discrimination. For them it is not as simple as “I’m going to make myself act like a man” or “I’m going to make myself a woman.” Now realistically blacks can also get surgery and change being black. Ie Michael Jackson or Sammy Sosa. Not saying anyone should or trying to make light of it, but white supremacy makes anything different a target. Some more than others.
“Whites and people who support white supremacy (can be any group of people even trans and homosexuals) fear what black people can do and be which is why they continue to target us even if we get a good job and abide by the law they still see us as 3/5 of a human being no matter how many times we try to show them we are the same as them.”—I fully agree.
Black trans people are targeted by Racism/white supremacy only cause they are black no matter if they are straight or not, hell they get discriminated in the LBGQT community.”—I agree to an extent. I agree fully that they are a target because of white supremacy. However, is white supremacy why they are a target of the black community?
“The reason the black community are against it is because they don’t agree with the lifestyle and it is a mental illness in which trans people degrade themselves and hate who they are to be something they are not and can’t be.”—The black community may not agree with it, but it does like most groups have a history of transgender and homosexual behavior. Uganda was known for having men dressing as women in ancient times and so did Egypt.
“Then they become imposters and deceivers trying to live a life they no is a lie which pisses a lot people off who react violently when they find out the truth after its too late. I don’t agree with them getting killed but they need some kind of help.”—Some do lie, and some don’t. However, there are those who are killed who did not lie, but simply existed. Therapy does help, but the help is often a result of not being accepted and not because something is inherently wrong with who they are or choose to be. Again, nothing new under the sun but the hate for them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_history
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@michaeljonbarker
“Straight black alpha males are more likely to be shot, incarcerated, attacked and discriminated against. That’s what white supremacy fears not trans people.”—I agree and then I disagree. Mainly because those numbers could include undercover black males and transgender individuals. I see this because data will not say heterosexual.
“500 years of destroying black identity and now gay and trans black people are modeled culturally.”—I agree that 500 years of effort has been placed on destroying the black identity, but gay and trans black people are modeled and killed without a care from white supremacy and supporters.
“So while being gay or trans is not a bad thing and any individuals personal choice and right, what is missing culturally across the board in our society is real men.”—I agree, but would they be considered beta males? I am thinking of the guys who are no longer providers, but seek women to take on their role or atleast 50% of it etc. Let me know if I am off mark.
“So male supremacy oppresses women of color not white supremacy ?”—According to some women in the black community that is an issue. Black male supremacy is what they would refer to it as. It is a second tier oppression below white supremacy and some black women feel black men want to control them.
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@A Russian Nagpo
Being gay is not just about ‘men loving men’, it’s more about ‘men hating women’. Consequently, being pink is not just about ‘women loving women’, it’s more about ‘women hating men’. Their ‘supporters’ don’t support love, they support hate.”—That is not true. Many of those I know who are in same-sex relationships were with those of the opposite sex prior to falling in love or loving an individual of the same-sex. They also have positive relationships with those of the opposite sex.
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@Russian Nagpo
“Let’s make it clear: politics are about power…”
You don’t have to go further. When countries outlaw the existence of LGBT people the first political powerplay was already made. So they have no option but to organize politically in order to attempt to combat a powerful existential threat: the State or Religiopolitical matrix. If the state stays out of people’s bedrooms, then the people stay out of the courtrooms.
@Russian Nagpo
“Being gay is not just about ‘men loving men’, it’s more about ‘men hating women’. Consequently, being pink is not just about ‘women loving women’, it’s more about ‘women hating men’. Their ‘supporters’ don’t support love, they support hate.”
Hmmm…I don’t think lack of a desire for sexual contact implies hate. I have many family members I love dearly but would never sleep with! Furthermore, there are contexts in which sexual contact takes place where love is not involved (rape).
I’d think that many gays do hate homophobic people but not straight people in general [their parents are likely straight]. I suspect that the idea that LGBT people hate heterosexual men and women, by default, is a projection of the inverse of a homphobic disdain unto them. In other words, it is imagined that the feeling is mutal just as white people sometimes imagine that blacks can’t wait to enslave them.
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@ A Russian Nagpo
“To mix sex and power … is to support violence.”
How so?
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@Origin
Indifference is a subtler form of aversion or hate. People are likely to define many things as being ‘forms of love’, and in most cases they mistake their pain, neediness or dependence for a positive attitude towards other sentient being.
This doesn’t imply that a willingness or unwillingness to have a sexual intercourse has anything to do with a sympathy, though. It’s more about non-sexual essence of sex.
I don’t believe in ‘State’ as ‘A Religiopolitical Matrix’. To me, it’s more of a game table than a battlefield or a prison.
@SharinaIr
I think you’ve made a handful of typos having written ‘This is not true’ instead of ‘The following is not true’. How do you define a quality of a relationship, a degree to which an attitude towards other people is positive?
By smiles, by frequency of talks, by sincerity, frankness, a readiness to share a bed? All these things can be easily faked, so they worth nothing.
Moreover, having studied the subconscious patterns and affections of most people towards their dearest family members, you would be surprised by what people could a.c.t.u.a.l.l.y feel towards their dear and near ones.
How do your proverbial acquaintances treat their former partners of opposite sexes?
Do they have same trust as in their ‘alternative’ unions? What makes you being so sure about authenticity of their ‘positive attitude’? Do they spend as much time with their het exes as with their ‘new friends’? Do they voluntary have common X-mas gathering, not being bound with their exes by finances, or reputation, or children?
The only way you can evaluate a quality of interpersonal attitude is by observing how a person treats those who are not superior to him or can give no social benefits.
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This doesn’t sound like “women hating men” to me:
“Long-time AIDS activist Vito Russo is rumored to have insisted on his deathbed, “Remember the lesbians and what they did for us”. How did lesbians, specifically, contribute to the fight against AIDS?
“Danzig: While I think I was the only lesbian daughter of a gay man who’d died from AIDS active in ACT UP New York, generally the lesbians in ACT UP came to the organization because of deep personal and professional friendships with gay men. Gerri Wells’ brother had died of AIDS. A number of ACT UP women worked in the medical field as doctors and nurses and saw close up how gay men were being treated—ignored, abused, made into pariahs. ACT UP women also had experience as “buddies”, being care partners to HIV+ men, either through personal friendships or GMHC [Gay Men’s Health Crisis] matches. I believe that Vito Russo was honoring both the personal and the political responses of lesbians in the AIDS crisis. Together, gay men and lesbians forged a very strong alliance that worked internally to support each other as friends and lovers died, and to use our mutual anger and outrage to build community awareness of the government’s lack of response to the AIDS crisis.”
https://www.google.com/amp/s/broadly.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/mbqjqp/the-women-who-fought-aids-it-was-never-not-our-battle
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@A Russian Nagpo
“I think you’ve made a handful of typos having written ‘This is not true’ instead of ‘The following is not true’.”—No, I wrote exactly what I meant and can be verified. What you wrote and was quoted is just speculation on your part. Who you have sex with or are attracted to does not mean you hate a person. White men have sex with black women but can’t stand black people.
“How do you define a quality of a relationship, a degree to which an attitude towards other people is positive? Etc.” All you ask are great questions and are generally defined by those involved, but what point are you making?
“Moreover, having studied the subconscious patterns and affections of most people towards their dearest family members, you would be surprised by what people could a.c.t.u.a.l.l.y feel towards their dear and near ones.”—And how do you study the subconscious patterns of most people and how do you decide or measure the subconscious patterns and affections and good or bad when said individual is not you. This is basically I read minds fluff rapped in a pretty bow. You don’t know.
“How do your proverbial acquaintances treat their former partners of opposite sexes?”—They are actually close friends with them. One is best friends with her previous boyfriend. He will be giving her away at her wedding.
“Do they have same trust as in their ‘alternative’ unions?”—Yes as per above example.What makes you being so sure about authenticity of their ‘positive attitude’? Do they spend as much time with their het exes as with their ‘new friends’?Do they voluntary have common X-mas gathering, not being bound with their exes by finances, or reputation, or children?”—I do believe the fact that he was asked to give her away at her wedding is enough to answer all these questions. Again, I don’t get your point.
“The only way you can evaluate a quality of interpersonal attitude is by observing how a person treats those who are not superior to him or can give no social benefits.”—False, because that is based on your measure. Surprise, there are actually genuine people in the world or like you or avoid you because they don’t like you.
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“In other words, it is imagined that the feeling is mutal just as white people sometimes imagine that blacks can’t wait to enslave them.”–OMG YESS!!!
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Allow a white boy to inform you American Kneegroes how foolish you appear to the world: Carry on!
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL9vf2tGPlg)
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@blakksage
That final ‘duh!’ made my day, because it sounds exactly like a Russian word for ‘yes’ or ‘sure’.
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@Russian Nagpo
“Indifference is a subtler form of aversion or hate. People are likely to define many things as being ‘forms of love’, and in most cases they mistake their pain, neediness or dependence for a positive attitude towards other sentient being.
This doesn’t imply that a willingness or unwillingness to have a sexual intercourse has anything to do with a sympathy, though. It’s more about non-sexual essence of sex.”
People will form whatever close interpersonal bonds that make sense given their family, class, gender, sexual orientation etc. I don’t see why gay people should be judged for having a particular circle of close associates which relate to their essence as people just as everyone else does.
There is no non-sexual essence of sex. There are however rituals and behaviors that take place around the act of intercourse that are ancillary to it but related. Partially undressing to pee is only fancifully a “non-peeing essence of peeing” but most people just consider it to be the start of the process of peeing in order to not make a mess.
Don’t mistake the buying a drink and woo-ing and getting close to a person and charming them into submitting to consensual sex as non-sexual when it is clearly sexually motivated. Straight men are frequently indifferent towards women who they find unnattractive and for whom they wouldn’t expend the effort to get in bed. Straight women often ignore or outright reject men they don’t want to sleep with. And of course, gay people will be uninclined to sleep with certain other people who are also gay.
So If you are going define sexual indifference as hate, everyone is guilty at some level because deciding who to get naked with (or marry) is a naturally discriminatory process that is personal. We simply do not entertain everyone (unless it’s our job, and even then some clients may be a ‘no’).
@Russian Nagpo
“I don’t believe in ‘State’ as ‘A Religiopolitical Matrix’. To me, it’s more of a game table than a battlefield or a prison.”
Of course this is the luxury of having a SEAT at the table, then you don’t see it as a massive weapon pointed at you. In a word, privilege.
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@ sharinalr
“Once they have the surgery they can’t change that. That transgender woman becomes subject to then sexism along with transgender discrimination. For them it is not as simple as “I’m going to make myself act like a man” or “I’m going to make myself a woman.” Now realistically blacks can also get surgery and change being black. Ie Michael Jackson or Sammy Sosa. Not saying anyone should or trying to make light of it, but white supremacy makes anything different a target. Some more than others.” Um I’m pretty sure they can change back if they can change their sex the first time what makes you think they can’t do it again. Sexism really, a trans woman experiencing sexism riiiiight sure uh huh, how? They are still the opposite sex. Of course its not that simple there are several factors that contribute to that in which a lot of people are willing to ignore or turn a blind eye to. Those factors need to be addressed and also the people who have been exposed to those factors need help. Well for starters Michael Jackson had vitiligo and the medicine he took for lupus made his skin lighter but as for the nose, hair and lip surgery he had a real problem. He hated his father and didn’t want to look anything like him. So surgery was his option plus the music industry never wanted a black man to be the king of pop so they did everything to support his dramatic change. Sammy Sosa on the other hand well look at where he is from they have black Dominicans hating themselves and African features, look Trujillo regime in the DR. They were brainwashed and whitewashed to believe white is right black is bad, the lighter you are the successful you are. This has been implanted into black people’s minds sense the transatlantic slave trade, 400 years of slavery and colonialism.
“The black community may not agree with it, but it does like most groups have a history of transgender and homosexual behavior. Uganda was known for having men dressing as women in ancient times and so did Egypt”. Uh huh sure and some of our great scholars must have missed uh huh if that was the case you’d still see them practicing it as if colonialism never happened. U mean Egypt when the Romans and Greeks ruled yeah sure they took over a lot of North Africa, bringing their culture
“Some do lie, and some don’t. However, there are those who are killed who did not lie, but simply existed. Therapy does help, but the help is often a result of not being accepted and not because something is inherently wrong with who they are or choose to be. Again, nothing new under the sun but the hate for them”. Yeah there is something wrong just like someone who thinks they are Margaret thatcher, Michael Jackson, a 65 year old man trapped in a 20 year old body or a person who believes they are a dinosaur. So acception is based off a lie is what your saying. You want them to lie and pretend this is who they are not tell them the truth because no matter what they do they will never be a woman.
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@John
“Um I’m pretty sure they can change back if they can change their sex the first time what makes you think they can’t do it again.”—Certain parts are removed during reassignment surgery that are unrecoverable. The most a person can hope for is some reconstruction to give the appearance of those parts.
“Sexism really, a trans woman experiencing sexism riiiiight sure uh huh, how?”—Sexism is prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination against women, right? So, if a transgender female can pass as a woman then she is most certainly subjected to the sexism that women endure today.
“Well for starters Michael Jackson had vitiligo and the medicine he took for lupus made his skin lighter but as for the nose, hair and lip surgery he had a real problem. He hated his father and didn’t want to look anything like him. So surgery was his option plus the music industry never wanted a black man to be the king of pop so they did everything to support his dramatic change. Sammy Sosa on the other hand well look at where he is from they have black Dominicans hating themselves and African features, look Trujillo regime in the DR. They were brainwashed and whitewashed to believe white is right black is bad, the lighter you are the successful you are. This has been implanted into black people’s minds sense the transatlantic slave trade, 400 years of slavery and colonialism.”—That is great and I agree, but this is just an excuse for why them wanting to be white is acceptable and transgenders wanting to be who they are isn’t. All the brainwashing in the world does not change they wanted to do it and are or were happy with it.
“ Uh huh sure and some of our great scholars must have missed uh huh if that was the case you’d still see them practicing it as if colonialism never happened. U mean Egypt when the Romans and Greeks ruled yeah sure they took over a lot of North Africa, bringing their culture.”—Uh huh sure which is why I used a source. It was also common for some tribes to have a male concubines or lover and that was before colonialism. I found that tidbit on an African website regarding African history. I will find it and post that source as well.
“Yeah there is something wrong just like someone who thinks they are Margaret thatcher, Michael Jackson, a 65 year old man trapped in a 20 year old body or a person who believes they are a dinosaur. So acception is based off a lie is what your saying. You want them to lie and pretend this is who they are not tell them the truth because no matter what they do they will never be a woman.”—The lie is pretending to be someone they are not to please bigoted people. That is why you have undercover black men sleeping with black women trying to maintain appeasement of the black community. There is nothing wrong with them,.
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@ John
“Sexism really, a trans woman experiencing sexism riiiiight sure uh huh, how?”
Sharina’s answer is right on the nose, and just to add to it — there are a number of trans women who have written about what it has been like to adjust to the sexism they now encounter, so firsthand accounts are available if you care to look. Furthermore, trans men have also commented on this from the opposite perspective — while most trans men expected to be treated somewhat better as men than as women, many have said they were surprised by how much difference there is.
“if that was the case you’d still see them practicing it as if colonialism never happened.”
If you look across the globe, you will find that entire languages and religions have disappeared because of colonialism. Many, many cultural practices have been lost even when the people still survive.
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@Origin
First, i don’t believe in classes. The nations in the country I’m living in has suffered a lot for those false theories of Lenin-Marx and Co, and the consequences of the civil war can still be seen here. KGB officers nominating their tzar and running ‘special kind of secret operations’ and schemes not just abroad but against the citizens of their own country as well is just one of the many negative results we have at my side of Atlantic.
Second. You say ‘there is no non-sexual essence of sex’, and I say, there is, just like any phenomenon has an external essence of it. In an oversimplified way. a ‘masculinity’ can be defined as ‘not feminine’, etc.
Third, you said ‘So If you are going define sexual indifference as hate, everyone is guilty at some level because deciding who to get naked with (or marry) is a naturally discriminatory process that is personal’. The thing is, I don’t define ‘sexual indifference as hate’, I define any indifference as a s.u.b.t.l.e.r. form of hate, but it’s not about guilt, for guilt is a Christian term. My tradition defines hate as a result of ignorance, and, yes, most sentient beings just don’t perceive this subtler form of hate, and there is no ‘guilt’ – because ‘guilt’ is caused by ‘a sin’ – but rather ‘suffering’ as a result of ‘mistakes’.
Fourth, you’ve mentioned social matrix, privileges, etc., but this is a way alien discourse to me. As an outside observer, I see that even as conflicting subgroups of American culture (e. g. ‘traditionalists’ vs ‘ffeminists’, ‘rights’ vs ‘lefts’, ‘blacks’ vs ‘whites’), you share the same code units and your communication follows standard and predictable patterns. Which proves that ‘matrix’ is not an external social reality but rather some clinging to certain ideas and believes people keep and maintain in their heads.
But, anyway, thanks for mentioning the ‘yan daudu’. I’ve found at Scribd a thesis by Maarit Sinikangas about Hausa bori cult; it’s quite interesting, given the Islamic milieu in which it has survived.
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@Russian Nagpo
You believe many things and it’s interesting but I don’t consider a lot of it germane to the topic so I’m not going to follow up too much.
You many not believe in classes but they exist. Everyone becomes a part of a certain milieu that primarily consists of people that are fundamentally like them in certain respects (financially, for instance).
@Russian Nagpo
I see that even as conflicting subgroups of American culture… you share the same code units and your communication follows standard and predictable patterns. Which proves that ‘matrix’ is not an external social reality but rather some clinging to certain ideas and believes people keep and maintain in their heads.
You’ve just described every single human social institution or culture. Some of the ideas people cling to are the idea of a Country with borders, a particular view of God, homophobia, racism. The fact that they are “things in people’s heads” doesn’t make them any less real or potentially influential or oppressive towards others especially when they are the majority viewpoint.
@Russian Nagpo
You say ‘there is no non-sexual essence of sex’, and I say, there is, just like any phenomenon has an external essence of it. In an oversimplified way. a ‘masculinity’ can be defined as ‘not feminine’, etc.
Language if funny since “sex” can mean “intercourse” or “gender”.
Anyway, I can also say “empty is not full”. However I would be describing a relationship between the two states not an “essential essence”. I would also be wrong in that the cup can be “not empty” AND not full”. So in fact, being “not full” does not guarantee emptiness and so the original “is” is not appropriate.
[I must say that binary, dichotomous thinking is one of the many ideas people keep and maintain in their heads. 🙂 ]
Furthermore, in describing masculinity as the negation of femininity in your “oversimplified example” you’ve certainly not described an “essential essence”. For if the nature of femininity were to change, masculinity would need to adjust to shun the former’s new characteristics. Nothing happens to a diamond when the silver tarnishes. An “essential essence” would need a different definitional foundation, only referring to things that constitute the thing under consideration.
Anyway, dont’ feel obligated to respond to all of this, I’m just giving my view.
To go back to my original point: human sexuality varies, it’s just a fact. It’s like how some people are left handed. The fact that they, unusually, favor that hand for intricate tasks is a behavior that comes naturally to them. They can be beaten and berated to do things less efficiently with their right hand but that will not change their ESSENTIAL ESSENCE :). So when the government (since you don’t like the term ‘State’) threatens one’s essential essence a political struggle is inevitable. That is not the fault of the people being victimized. Self-preservation is a natural right.
@Russian Nagpo
But, anyway, thanks for mentioning the ‘yan daudu’. I’ve found at Scribd a thesis by Maarit Sinikangas about Hausa bori cult; it’s quite interesting, given the Islamic milieu in which it has survived.
Yes. African adaptations of imperially imposed religions often leaves some leeway for ancestral practices to be continued. In the Caribbean (eg. Haiti) Catholicism was also adapted to accomodate African spiritual concepts. However, I’d imagine that fundamentalism remains a threat to those rententions. In fact it seems that the yan daudu are being impacted by the surge of more literal religiosity due to ISIS etc.
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@Origin
Classes are similar to Hindu castes and that contradicts my believes. There are some believes that exclude belief in G-d, mine is one of them.
A binary thinking is ok for a formal, mundane logic, but, fortunately enough, there are still a lot of different logics in these worlds.
As it is stated by my believes — and, also, by Sinikangas’ 66 pages on Hausa yan daudu I’ve read today – there is no such a thing as ‘innate nature’. A gender is a social construct plus imprints into one’s mind.
I think it would be wrong, though, to describe Islam among Hausa as ‘imperially imposed’; the Islamic states have usually been plurocentric by different maddhabs and tariqas.
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jesus christ, nagpo, you sure are a nihilistic existiential cynic! wow
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@v8driver Nope, a nagpo cannot be a cynic or a nihilist. In fact, I have a religion, quite an ancient one, but it’s just not abrahamic.
According to the main school of my religious thought, nihilism is one of two extreme — and therefore unfeasible — views.
The other and opposite extremity is that of eternalism.
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Umm, so why is this aspect of the nagpo so cynical, nihilist, and exisitentialistic?
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@v8driver Well, ¿is it because this aspect is nothing but a mirror image projection between your mind and mine?…
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@abagond
PS It’s strange that you have not written anything about The Underground so far. It would be interesting to know your opinion about it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underground_(TV_series)
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So very sad Pose has come to an end. It was a big,beautiful, hot mess. I loved the characters and the finale broke my heart.
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