Abubakari II (1300s), also known as Abu Bakr II or Mansa Bakari II, was a ruler of the Mali Empire, brother of Mansa Musa. In 1311, he set out west across the Atlantic Ocean, 181 years before Columbus.
The Mali Empire in West Africa was extremely rich, as his brother’s journey to Mecca in 1324 made clear to Arab writers. It also made clear that Malians could supply a huge expedition to cross vast distances. They had compasses and nautical instruments.
Abubakari, unlike his brother, had little interest in Mecca. He was barely Muslim. Instead he wanted to cross the ocean. Just as the US spent part of its huge wealth to build Apollo rockets to go to the Moon, so he built ships to cross the ocean.
The leading minds of Timbuktu were divided over whether it was possible. Some said the Earth was round like a ball, so there had to be another side to the ocean. In fact, if you went far enough west, over land and sea, you would wind up where you started from. Others thought the idea laughable.
Abubakari’s first expedition was made up of hundreds of ships with enough supplies for two years. It set out from the coast near the Senegal River. He did not go on this expedition, but instructed it not to return till it reached the end of the ocean or was in danger of running out of supplies.
During the long wait for its return, he had a dream: He saw a flock of blackbirds flying across the sky. One of the birds fell to earth and cracked open, spilling out seawater. The other birds turned into a cloud in the distance and disappeared.
Not much later one of the seamen returned. He said there was a river in the ocean. The other ships were carried away by it and disappeared in the distance. He was too afraid to follow and turned back. He was the only one ever to return from the expedition.
Abubakari’s second expedition was much bigger. This time he would lead it himself. He left the empire in the care of his brother, Mansa Musa.
He never returned.
That is the story told by Arab writers and the Malian griots who keep the royal history.
So did he make it? Did any African cross the Atlantic Ocean before Columbus?
When Columbus arrived in the Americas he found that:
“The Indians of this Española [Hispaniola] said there had come to Española a black people who have the tops of their spears made of a metal they call gua-nin ...”
Chemical analyses of those spear points show that they probably came from West Africa.
In 1975, the Associated Press reported a grave found in Hull Bay in the Virgin Islands that the Smithsonian dated to 1250. It contained a nail, a vessel of Indian design from before the time of Columbus and two men with Negroid skeletons. They had “dental mutilation characteristic of early African cultures” – unlike the Blacks slaves that came later.
Thanks to all the comments about this on other threads and those who emailed me about it.
– Abagond, 2015.
Sources: “They Came Before Columbus” (1976) by Ivan Van Sertima; BBC (2000); “Lies My Teacher Told Me” (2007) by James Loewen; “Africa from the Twelfth to the Sixteenth Century” (1997) edited by Joseph Ki-Zerbo and Djibril Tamsir Niane; “Africans and their History” (1998) by Joseph E. Harris, Ph.D.
See also:
I have been seriously contemplating buying this book by the late Dr. Van Sertima. I was watching some of his You Tubes. He talks about the Malians being competent and going to the Americas. I know many whites and European historians feel his work has no merit. But this book has been in print for many years. I was listening to a podcast today and this book “They Came Before Columbus by Dr. Van Sertima was mentioned. I took that as a sign i should purchase it and read it.
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*competent and innovative and navigated their way to the New World*
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Ivan van Sertima does not inspire confidence. In the following video starting at 7:11 he states that Columbus sent two spears that were “microscopically inspected”. Unless he misspoke, his claim is nonsense. why? Because the first microscope wasn’t invented in Europe until 1590, Columbus died in 1506! https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=448&v=UWuMzhiFhVw
This post should have been better researched given the amount of controversy the one on Africa in the 1400s: the Portuguese generated. Anything relying on one source should be viewed with suspicion. Again, something about Africans gives short shrift to African sources. I would like to have read what Gaoussou Diawara’s book: ‘The Saga of Abubakari II…he left with 2000 boats’ had to say on the subject.
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The Utube link is to some Afrocentrist lady’s video that included an interview by Mr. Van Sertima where he makes the claim I found objectionable.
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I’m quite curious about what happened to them. Did they hit a whirlpool on the way back? Did they simply decided to stay?
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Abubakari’s (and crew) mysterious “disappearance” puts me in the mind of those who have been lost in the Bermuda Triangle, I wonder if they encountered such a thing after arriving(?) in the Americas, hmmm..
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In the You Tube Dr. Van Sertima doesn’t say Malians but he says Africans navigated their way to the Americas.
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There is every reason for this story to be true. My understanding is that Columbus used maps of the ocean and if I am not mistaken had an African navigator as a part of one of his ship’s crew.
The prevailing winds and currents of the Atlantic are flowing westward out of West Africa, which is why most ships found that route the best.
Why would anyone question such a trip with a thousand ships full of supplies and people?
Perhaps a testing of DNA will solve this question.
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This moderation business is a joke and an attempt to impede conversations. Since it’s taking a ridiculous amount of time to pass ‘moderation’ I’m restating my comment sans the YouTube link which can be found at “Black African Civilization: Replacing the Racist History of the Classroom” hosted by a lady named Moni Tano: on Wed 16 Sep 2015 at 00:53:51
gro jo
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Ivan van Sertima does not inspire confidence. In the following video starting at 7:11 he states that Columbus sent two spears that were “microscopically inspected”. Unless he misspoke, his claim is nonsense. why? Because the first microscope wasn’t invented in Europe until 1590, Columbus died in 1506!
This post should have been better researched given the amount of controversy the one on Africa in the 1400s: the Portuguese generated. Anything relying on one source should be viewed with suspicion. Again, something about Africans gives short shrift to African sources. I would like to have read what Gaoussou Diawara’s book: ‘The Saga of Abubakari II…he left with 2000 boats’ had to say on the subject.
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@gro jo,
Encase your youtube link in parentheses (“brackets” for our UK friends) and normally the links will bypass moderation.
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Aaron Langley
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Um, no.
http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/following-up-on-the-real-source-of-columbuss-mysterious-voyage-of-the-black-people
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[…] Abubakari II (1300s), also known as Abu Bakr II or Mansa Bakari II, was a ruler of the Mali Empire, brother of Mansa Musa. In 1311, he set out west across the Atlantic Ocean, 181 years before Columbus.Continue reading […]
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@ gro jo
I updated the post to list ALL my sources. Before all I had was that I “mainly” used Van Sertima as my source. That means he was not my ONLY source, but was the one who hit most of the points made in the post.
I do not have Gaoussou Diawara’s book. The BBC did talk about it, and I did read that. The link is in the post. From what I can tell, he may have added more depth or support, but he was not saying anything markedly different than Van Sertima.
Van Sertima’s account of Abubakari, the one given in the post, is based on Arab and Malian sources, as the post states.
I do not have access to Malian griots or the Arab writings in question, but the other sources listed do not disagree with the main outlines of what he said they said. Several quote or refer to al Umari independently of Van Sertima. Al Umari spoke about the two expeditions, their size and what was known about their fate. The griots and al Umari are African sources. Van Sertima himself, from Guyana, is hardly a wilting Eurocentrist.
I do not trust Van Sertima blindly. I have disagreed with him before, over the Olmec heads:
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The real mystery is the absence of the written contemporary Malian accounts since they were able to write Arabic and other languages in Arabic script. It’s bizarre that they would wait until Mansa Musa reached Egypt to have some Arab write about this event when Timbuktu was lousy with writers and other literate people. I don’t understand the retention of griots after literacy was achieved, were their guild so powerful that they managed to shut out court scribes? It’s been decades since I read Van Sertima’s book, does he repeat the error that the spears were “microscopically inspected” as he does in the video?
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@ gro jo
Griots kept the royal history and were probably way better connected than the scholars of Timbuktu. That said, I doubt scholars in our time have looked through all the books of Timbuktu to see if they say anything about Abubakari or ocean voyages.
In what I read, Van Sertima did not use the M-word. I think what he means is it was chemically analysed, which it was. Guanin is 56% gold, 19% silver and 25% copper.
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This story indicates that technology alone doesn’t drive social change, the Malians had the means to “discover” the Americas but failed to do so because they didn’t have the social drive to do it. The Haya, an African tribe in present day Tanzania made steel more than a thousand years before Europe but they erected no great steel structures or weapons made of that material, why? For the same reason the Malians failed to colonize the Americas. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science_and_technology_in_Africa
Although some skeletons identified as “Negroid” were found in the Caribbean it’s not proof that Abu Bakr II colonized the Americas. A pirogue could carry 100 men, he left with 2000 of them, assuming that half of them were supply ships,100,000 young men went with him, where are their descendants? A place to look for them if they exist is in the gene pool of the Indians of northern Brazil, French Guiana, Suriname, Guyana and Venezuela.
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@gro jo
“he states that Columbus sent two spears that were “microscopically inspected”. ”
Perhaps a poor word choice, but it’s not necessarily incorrect. Micro is from the Greek word meaning small and scopically is from the Greek word meaning look. And a “microscope” per se isn’t the only instrument used to examine small things. Magnifying glasses existed in Columbus’ time.
“The real mystery is the absence of the written contemporary Malian accounts since they were able to write Arabic and other languages in Arabic script.”
How do you know there is an “absence” of Malian accounts? Have you had a chance to read the hundreds of thousands of Timbuktu manuscripts that have either been found or are still hidden?
“Anything relying on one source should be viewed with suspicion.”
Who is relying on one source? Several Europeans (since those are the only historians you trust) have reported Africans in the Americas. Peter Martyr
What proof do you have they were lying?
“Although some skeletons identified as “Negroid” were found in the Caribbean it’s not proof that Abu Bakr II colonized the Americas.”
I get it, so now you’re basing your theory Malians didn’t travel on your opinion that Malians did not colonise the Americans. Slick move, but what makes you sure they did not colonise?
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I have enjoyed reading and learning about this particular thread topic. With that being said we can only deduce that this is a mystery. The conclusion is too sketchy, all that’s left to go on is oral story telling of the griots (story tellers) and Arab writers. Even viewing Dr. Sertimia’s YouTube videos it’s too sketchy in my opinion. So we really don’t know what became of the Malians in their quest to America.
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resw77, how are you? I see that you’ve elected yourself my nemesis, very well. Let’s take your objections point by point.
1) “I get it, so now you’re basing your theory Malians didn’t travel on your opinion that Malians did not colonise the Americans. Slick move, but what makes you sure they did not colonise?” If you are going to be my judge and executioner it behooves you to state my position on this matter accurately. This is what I wrote. “A pirogue could carry 100 men, he left with 2000 of them, assuming that half of them were supply ships,100,000 young men went with him, where are their descendants? A place to look for them if they exist is in the gene pool of the Indians of northern Brazil, French Guiana, Suriname, Guyana and Venezuela.” Now why would I write this if I excluded their traveling? Hell, I even went to the trouble of figuring out the distance between Banjul, Gambia and Recife, Brazil, 1708 nautical miles. I chose these two points because Mr. Diawara’s team claimed that the name, Pernambuco, the state where Recife is located is a corruption of “…the Mande name for the rich gold fields that accounted for much of the wealth of the Mali Empire, Boure Bambouk.” I’m not in a position to gainsay or confirm that claim, are you?
2) “Who is relying on one source? Several Europeans (since those are the only historians you trust) have reported Africans in the Americas. Peter Martyr
What proof do you have they were lying?” Abagond only listed Prof. Van Sertima’s book as the main source, he subsequently added more, is that clear? I accept that Abu Bakr II sent one expedition to discover what was on the other side of the Atlantic, and may have taken off to find out for himself on a second expedition. I have an open mind on this matter. Please indicate where I claimed anybody was lying?
3) “How do you know there is an “absence” of Malian accounts? Have you had a chance to read the hundreds of thousands of Timbuktu manuscripts that have either been found or are still hidden?” Tell me you wrote this absurd sentence to make me laugh, my dear resw77, if the manuscripts chronicling the events have not been read or found they are absent as far as this conversation goes. If you disagree please break it down for me.
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“They had compasses and nautical instruments.”
Source for this, Abagond? According to Ralph Austen, the compass wasn’t used for trans-Saharan trade, what makes you think West Africans were using the compass along the coast? There’s no evidence for its use, although its certainly possible some West Africans knew about it.
“The leading minds of Timbuktu were divided over whether it was possible. ”
Source? There should be textual sources to prove this, otherwise it’s complete speculation. There’s no proof for this, is there? Which Timbuktu scholars wrote about this in the early 1300s? Has anyone even found manuscripts or written sources from the early 1300s in Timbuktu yet?
I am not saying this stuff didn’t happen, but we don’t have enough sources to overcome reasonable doubt, so it becomes bogged down by speculation.
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@gro jo
If you don’t like people questioning your B.S. arguments, then don’t post them.
“Now why would I write this if I excluded their traveling”
Maybe that’s the position you chose to take today, but it’s a far cry from the one you took a few days ago, when you stated, and I quote:
“Talibmensah argues that the Malians weren’t motivated to sustain such discovery program, I think he has a point. As far as I know, two unsuccessful attempts were made by Abu Bakr II and the business of discovery was abandoned as not worth the effort.”
“Abagond only listed Prof. Van Sertima’s book as the main source”
And Van Sertima lists several people as his sources. So Van Sertima didn’t concoct the idea, he got it from multiple sources.
“Please indicate where I claimed anybody was lying?”
I did not indicate you claimed anyone was lying. I simply asked you a question.
” if the manuscripts chronicling the events have not been read or found they are absent as far as this conversation goes”
Your own ignorance is not synonymous with nonexistence. Considering that most Timbuktu manuscripts have not been translated by Westerners, it’s overly naive to draw such definitive conclusions.
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Give it a rest resw77. Your arguments smack of desperation. I said that the two attempts were unsuccessful for the obvious reason that the second never returned and only one ship came back from the first expedition. these clear statements that the Malians tried to make it to the Americas and failed means that I’m a skeptic as far as Malian colonization goes, not as far as exploration or attempted exploration goes. I hope this explanation wasn’t to complicated for you. Did the second and first expedition make landfall? I don’t know and you don’t either, so drop the pretense that you are better informed than anybody else. My point is that the Indians of the regions I indicated may or may not tell if the story of Malian explorers has a basis in fact. I don’t exclude the possibility that Musa Mansa was just lying to his hosts when he mentioned the fate of his brother. Mathew Henson and Robert Peary tried and failed to be the first westerners to reach the North Pole, the funny thing is that there’s biological evidence for their attempts because they had children with the women of that area. Unless you come up with less stupid arguments, I won’t deign to respond to your comments. Learn basic honesty before you engage in debate. I’m tired of your dumb sophistries. “Your own ignorance is not synonymous with nonexistence. Considering that most Timbuktu manuscripts have not been translated by Westerners, it’s overly naive to draw such definitive conclusions.” Dopey, you still can’t figure out that you are talking about things you don’t know? Until the documents are found, read and translated into languages we are able to read they don’t exist, the are virtual documents that may or may not be real, got it!
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@talibmensah
“According to Ralph Austen, the compass wasn’t used for trans-Saharan trade”
And what is Ralph Austen’s source for that claim?
“There’s no evidence for its use”
What’s the source of your claim?
“There’s no proof for this”
Source?
“I am not saying this stuff didn’t happen, but we don’t have enough sources to overcome reasonable doubt, so it becomes bogged down by speculation”
Agree. So apply that same standard to your own claims.
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@gro jo
Again, if you don’t like people calling your B.S., don’t post any.
“I said that the two attempts were unsuccessful for the obvious reason that the second never returned and only one ship came back from the first expedition”
Source? How do you deduce that both were “unsuccessful”
“I don’t know and you don’t either, so drop the pretense that you are better informed than anybody else.”
Because I questioned your definitive statements and asked you to back them up does not mean I believe the opposite of what you’re claiming. Nice try, but I never claimed Abu Bakr made any trip anywhere.
“I don’t know and you don’t either, so drop the pretense that you are better informed than anybody else.”
Relevance?
“Until the documents are found, read and translated into languages we are able to read they don’t exist, the are virtual documents that may or may not be real, got it”
Hundreds of thousands have been found and are legible to people who are literate in the languages in which they’re written. How many have you read to make the claim that manuscripts about Abu Bakr don’t exist?
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Okay, resw77.
Ralph Austen’s source, I am unsure of, but his ‘Trans-Saharan Africa in World History’ is far more reputable than Ivan Van Sertima’s work. I’ll have to go back and check his specific sources on that.
There is no evidence for the use of the compass in precolonial West Africa, at least not from the 1300s, when this event allegedly took place. The burden is on Abagond and you, since you may concur with him, to tell me specifically in which book or article I can read about the compass in West African history to show that it may have been used. I have never read anything from John Hunwick, Austen, Nehemia Levtzion, David Conrad, Basil Davidson, McIntosh, or other Africanists that mention nautical instruments or compasses in the early 1300s in West Africa. I’ve read the UNESCO General History of Africa which Abagond cites here, it definitely does not mention the use of compasses or nautical instruments in West Africa.
Also, the use of compasses or nautical instruments doesn’t mean Abubakari didn’t disappear in the Atlantic. I believe gro jo and others have linked to examples or studies that show how peoples have crossed oceans in canoes or pirogues. My problem here is Abagond is probably exaggerating, since he hasn’t stated specifically where one can find a reputable source on the compass in precolonial West Africa, it’s not ‘safe’ to assume so.
I do apply the same standards to my own ‘claims.’ I’ve only tried to bring reputable sources into discussion and ‘real history’ instead of imagination. If you can’t find sources or archaeological evidence for something, don’t assume it happened or existed. It’s the same with the ‘vast libraries’ claim you made in another post. Prove it. Where are the ‘vast libraries’ you claim that include sources which mention the Americas? If you can’t produce any convincing sources or evidence, it’s not really history, but a game of counterfactuals and conjecture. That’s what this whole post is, something that may have happened, but lacks enough sources to tell the ‘story’ and is, ultimately, irrelevant to discussions on the Mali Empire.
And as gro jo said, there’s certainly no strong evidence for Malian ‘colonization’ in the Americas either. Basically, if you can’t find believable and accurate information and sources, don’t make ridiculous claims without the evidence.
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@talibmensah
“his ‘Trans-Saharan Africa in World History’ is far more reputable than Ivan Van Sertima’s work”
And how did you draw that conclusion? And reputable by whom? White historians? And what do you doubt about Van Sertima’s sources?
“The burden is on Abagond and you, since you may concur with him”
I made no claims about Abu Bakr traveling anywhere. That I questioned your claims is another matter.
“I do apply the same standards to my own ‘claims.’” You need some examples?
Perhaps generally speaking, but not generally on this blog.
“Where are the ‘vast libraries’ you claim that include sources which mention the Americas?”
I referenced “vast libraries” but did not make any claim that they mention the Americas, which was in response to a claim (opinion) you made about their “motivation.”
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“And how did you draw that conclusion? And reputable by whom? White historians? And what do you doubt about Van Sertima’s sources?”
This is absurd. So, anything by ‘white historians’ is somehow less credible or reputable than something by a ‘black historian’? I hope that’s not what you’re saying. If you fall for that logic you’re probably hopeless on the subject of African History or Studies. Not all ‘white historians’ are out to remove African historical agency or impose Eurocentrism.
Reputable to academic and university publishing houses in which scholarly standards are met and maintained. You shouldn’t assume all ‘white historians’ are somehow against African historical inquiries or studies. It’s not about race, it’s about the quality of work and research. If one doesn’t meet those standards, I’m sorry, I can’t take you seriously. It’s why most of the popular Afrocentrism is rubbish. They make ridiculous claims without any evidence. Van Sertima is an excellent example. They Came Before Columbus is based on a series of numerous faulty assumptions. Gro Jo is right about the ‘microscopic evidence’ claim, and Van Sertima’s linguistic and Spanish textual sources are inconclusive. I am also skeptical of ‘Negroid’ physical remains allegedly discovered. ‘Negroid’ skeletons is a myth of scientific racism.
And yes, you speculated in a previous post that Arabic documents allude to or discuss the ‘Americas.’ That’s your problem, you’re full of speculation and conjecture, but can’t provide any sources across any disciplines to back it up. And the burden remains on the poster of this topic to back up his conjecture with reputable sources, historical, archaeological, linguistic, DNA analysis, anthropological, etc.
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@talibmensah
So, again, I ask you questions, and instead of answering them, you make up a story about what you wish I had said. That’s what’s absurd.
“Reputable to academic and university publishing houses in which scholarly standards are met and maintained. ”
So if you’re your works are not published by university publishing houses, then they are not “scholarly” works? And which “scholarly standards” did Van Sertima not meet? And I’ll wait for Ralph Austen’s sources to back up your earlier claims.
“You shouldn’t assume all ‘white historians’ are somehow against African historical inquiries or studies.”
I don’t recall making any assumptions about that. That must all be in your head.
“They Came Before Columbus is based on a series of numerous faulty assumptions.”
Such as? Since you’re so sure about your claim, it should be easy to point out specific examples. You know, use the same standard that you supposedly use.
“And yes, you speculated in a previous post that Arabic documents allude to or discuss the ‘Americas.’ ”
No, your misunderstanding is probably a result of your lack of reading comprehension or intentional dishonesty. I don’t know.
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re: talibmensah’s question
I really would like to know how the use of the compass or other type nautical instruments got to West Africa. Even Europeans admit that they learned about the compass from the Chinese. Did it get to West Africa before it got to Europe?
I am not saying that any single source would be the gospel truth, just wondering about the various theories on how it might have happened; that would be OK for now.
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@ talibmensah
The bit about compasses and nautical instruments comes from Van Sertima. I do not think it is a stretch at all: Arabs were using compasses by 1100 and astrolabes by the 700s. Muslims used astrolabes to find out the direction of Mecca.
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@ talibmensah
It is clear from Mansa Musa’s account to al Umari that back in Mali some thought an ocean crossing was possible while others did not.
Van Sertima says that Mali got the idea of a round earth from North African scholars. Again, not a stretch: Arab science got ideas of a round earth from the Greeks, like Ptolemy. The libraries of Timbuktu have copies of Ptolemy and other works of Greek science.
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@abagond
“Arab science got ideas of a round earth from the Greeks, like Ptolemy.”
And Greeks like Ptolemy and the older Eratosthenes, both of whom lived in Africa, got ideas of a round earth from Egyptians.
But that doesn’t mean the idea of a round earth was only something that was passed down through books. If an astronomical observer ever witnessed an eclipse of the moon and recognized earth’s shadow for what it was, then it would be possible to conclude that the earth is round–perhaps not spherical, but round.
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Would these be the Lamanites in Joseph Smith’s account of the ancient Americans?
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@ resw77
True. They were perfectly capable of coming to those conclusions by themselves. But to prove that would require a good knowledge of their writings which few if any seem to have.
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(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66NrAOW8iTA)
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@ resw77 @ talibmensah
Actually, the close-up of an open book shown in the post on the libraries of Timbuktu is itself an astronomical text:
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^^^ James Loewen says that five out of the 12 American high school history textbooks he surveyed admitted the possibility of an Irish expedition. Not a single one said anything about a West African one.
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A very nice animated retelling of the Abu Bakr II tale from a strictly Afrocentric perspective. I don’t endorse it in full but I like it for its artistic merits. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9fpH62_PbQ)
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@ LoM – Do you think this from whence the stories of Avalon?
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@abagond
Right, that’s one of many that have been found, and so we know undoubtedly that astronomical writings existed in Mali. I find it hard to believe that any astronomer with such knowledge and observational experience could think of the world as flat and not round.
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No, resw77, it’s the implications of your words. You seem to live in a delusional Afrocentric fantasy, an unfortunate result of white supremacy. You should try to open your eyes, leave the cave of Afrocentrism and Eurocentrism.
Ok, Agabond, that doesn’t mean compasses were used in West Africa. Van Sertima is assuming. Another assumption: that there were astronomical texts in the early 1300s in Timbuktu that Abubakari may have had access to. That’s based in a number of assumptions about texts we don’t have, missing evidence. I’m not saying Malians didn’t take an interest in the Atlantic, but there’s no conclusive evidence for it or it’s success. That’s all.
Instead of wasting more time on speculative ideas, we should be discussing what we do know about Mali and West Africa in the 1300s.
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@ talibmensah
You are assuming that Van Sertima is assuming. I do not know that.
There is material proof that Africans crossed the Atlantic before Columbus, better than what we have for the Vikings or the Irish, from what I understand. We have no proof, however, that Abubakari himself crossed the Atlantic. We do have proof, though, that the idea crossed their minds: Mansa Musa’s story shows that, even if it is a complete lie. At the very least, he thought it was plausible.
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Sure, it’s possible that they crossed the Atlantic, no problem there. Doesn’t mean it happened.
Yes, Van Sertima is making an assumption. It’s possible they used the compass and nautical instruments, but not clear if they did or would have needed them. There’s still no documents from Timbuktu in the 1300s that mention this. You keep talking about Timbuktu, but there’s no reason to think writers in Timbuktu were talking about this when you lack any evidence. That’s just assumptions on your part without any evidence. That’s like saying documents from the ancient Maya discussed Africa or crossing the ocean. It’s absurd because no sources have been found yet to back that claim.
My problem with your post is the unverified claims. Ultimately, it’s a waste of time discussing this until more information, artifacts, and documents are uncovered. This is not an attempt to discredit West African societies, but a call to avoid the Afrocentric hyperbole that distorts Africa just as much as Eurocentrism.
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talibmensah wrote: “Instead of wasting more time on speculative ideas, we should be discussing what we do know about Mali and West Africa in the 1300s.” Feel free to be the first to get the ball rolling in that direction. you claimed: “The rise of cities like Timbuktu and their ulama is something that develops more in the 1400s and 1500s, when more West Africans began writing their own books in Arabic or local languages instead of importing or copying books from North Africa.” According to Wikipedia and the source of the following quote, Sankore Mosque was founded at the end of the 10th century. “The Sankore Mosque was founded in 989 CE by the erudite chief judge of Timbuktu, Al-Qadi Aqib ibn Mahmud ibn Umar. He had built the inner court of the mosque parallel to the exact dimensions of the Ka’abah in Makkah. A wealthy Mandinka lady financed Sankore University making it the leading centre of education. The Sankore University prospered and became a very significant seat of learning in the Muslim world, especially under the reign of Mansa Musa (1307-1332) and the Askia Dynasty (1493-1591).” http://muslimheritage.com/article/university-sankore-timbuktu. Please tell us why there’s such wide discrepancy between what you and others claim? I find it incredible that it would have taken the Malians three centuries to master the knowledge coming to them from Arab sources. Where did you get your information from? The dates given by the sources that contradict your claim puts the efflorescence of Sankore Madrasah during the period Abu Bakr II reigned. I agree with you that the Malians didn’t have any great need to cross the Ocean and probably put a stop to any further exploration because of the expense and risks involved. I disagree with your claim that they didn’t have vast libraries by 1310.
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Wikipedia’s wrong. Timbuktu didn’t exist as a city in the 10th century, no evidence of Sankore Mosque in that era. Most scholars trace the origins of Timbuktu to the 1100s. Sankore was associated with Sanhaja ‘Bidan’s so I’m skeptical of any claims of a Manindinka woman funding it before the 1100s or 1200s. Sankore wasn’t a university, it was a mosque. Learning in Timbuktu was decentralized, associated with family lineages and groups who taught students at mosques or in their homes. These respected family lineages would act as qadis or provide services to the state, teach, or engage in business to supplement their income.
My sources are John Hunwick, Timothy Cleaveland, David Conrad, and some of the sources I link to in the comments on Songhai. Huswick estimates that the rise of scholarly family lineages in Timbuktu evolved around 1350-1400, and that’s when we begin to find more evidence of manuscripts from Timbuktu. It’s likely that there were manuscripts and a very small ulama in the early 1300s, but we haven’t studied enough manuscripts. That’s why I’m not sure if there were ‘vast libraries’ in the early 1300s AND we have no evidence of any Timbuktu scholars debating the feasibility of traveling across the Atlantic.
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Another thing to remember: Timbuktu was a multiethnic city and some of the trading towns of the Sahel were full of Muslim Arabs and Berbers. The Mali empire’s heartland was not in Timbuktu, but further south where most were not Muslim. Islamic learning was not as widely diffused as some might think, so no surprise Ghana and Mali didn’t use writings for government operations (that we know of).
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Thank you for your prompt reply, please indicate the articles or books where these scholars make the claims you ascribe to them. I’d like to go to the library and read your sources.
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@gro jo
Check the list I wrote on the Songhay empire page. For possible interesting archaeological work in the area of Timbuktu before Islam, check out Douglas Park. It’s possible there were early urban settlements in the area around Timbuktu, which means the local historians who trace their city back to around 1100 could be wrong on the chronology, if there is some sort of connection between earlier pre-Islamic settlements and the city that we know as Timbuktu.
http://gwu.academia.edu/DouglasPark
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Thank you for the link, this is the proper way to debate these issues rather than the silly name calling and excommunications from ‘churches’.
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@talibmensah
“it’s the implications of your words”
I.e., your opinion.
“You seem to live in a delusional Afrocentric fantasy, an unfortunate result of white supremacy. ”
And you seem to live in a delusional Eurocentric fantasy, an unfortunate result of white supremacy.
“Sankore wasn’t a university, it was a mosque. ”
Evidence? Could it have been both?
“My sources are John Hunwick, Timothy Cleaveland, David Conrad”
And what evidence did they use to prove the claims you make.
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@talibmensah
You’re great at dodging questions about backing up your claims, but you want others to do the same. You’re a master of the double standard.
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It’s called reading the primary sources by local writers, something Hunwick dedicated his life to. Calling Sankore a university is Eurocentric and ignores the decentralized nation of learning. If I was a Eurocentrist, I would have no problem with using a European construct like a university for decentralized learning that took place in Timbuktu. Instead, I read works by writers who have read local histories and are familiar with the academic scholarship on West Africa. Again, you’re obsession with race may be clouding your judgment. It’s not about race, but standards of scholarship. If you want to remain in the cave of Afrocentrism and Eurocentrism, go ahead.
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Another stellar performance of dodging support for your claims. You put Lord of Mirkwood to shame.
“It’s called reading the primary sources by local writers, something Hunwick dedicated his life to”
How are you so familiar with Hunwick’s writings when you yourself said you have never read them? And are you suggesting Van Sertima did not read and rely on primary sources, since you’re so sure he made “ridiculous claims without any evidence”?
“Calling Sankore a university is Eurocentric and ignores the decentralized nation of learning”
That’s your opinion, talibmensah. You can say it three different ways, and it’s still your own opinion. I’m still looking for your evidence.
“Again, you’re obsession with race may be clouding your judgment.”
No, but your double standards are clearly clouding your judgment
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@ All commenters
Let’s NOT forget that world history glorifies the hunter, which is the White supremacist. Keep in mind, the White supremacist is not the tobacco-chewing or skin head, tattooed White extremists, he (or she) is the well-dressed White person who’s teaching our children in classrooms across America and the world. People, particularly Whites, are taught to reject African oral and written history and the African worldview of things. If the aggressive Vikings did it, then it must be true because they’re European. But if Blacks did it, then it must not be true because Black people don’t have the intellectual capacity as Whites or other non-Black people. The great Ancestor John Henrik Clarke once said: “The White man not only colonized the world, he colonized history too.” So, I’m NOT surprised when people, particularly White people, call my Ancestor’s history – i.e., African history – “afrocentric myths” and “fables.” As we leave comments and replies, world history still glorifies the hunter.
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@Michael Cooper
Exactly.
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“Let’s NOT forget that world history glorifies the hunter, which is the White supremacist. Keep in mind, the White supremacist is not the tobacco-chewing or skin head, tattooed White extremists, he (or she) is the well-dressed White person who’s teaching our children in classrooms across America and the world. People, particularly Whites, are taught to reject African oral and written history and the African worldview of things. If the aggressive Vikings did it, then it must be true because they’re European. But if Blacks did it, then it must not be true because Black people don’t have the intellectual capacity as Whites or other non-Black people. The great Ancestor John Henrik Clarke once said: “The White man not only colonized the world, he colonized history too.” So, I’m NOT surprised when people, particularly White people, call my Ancestor’s history – i.e., African history – “afrocentric myths” and “fables.” As we leave comments and replies, world history still glorifies the hunter.”
This doesn’t make much sense. What’s an ‘African worldview?’ You do realize that Africa is a vast continent made up of diverse peoples. How can their be an ‘African worldview?’ I agree that Eurocentrism has distorted Africa and world history, but we shouldn’t generalize the African continent either.
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The diverse people in Africa had a common White colonialist and have a common thief (of resourceful minerals) too.
Yes, Africa is a VAST continent and, like North America and Asia, is made up of diverse people. However, when the White supremacist/colonialist came to Africa he didn’t colonize certain people’s land, he colonized 99 percent of the continent. It doesn’t get more general than colonizing nearly an entire continent. Ethiopia – the only African nation to never be colonized by the White supremacist (she was only occupied by the White supremacist, twice) – is a highly diverse country, but when the White supremacists/Italian invaders tried to colonize Ethiopia in the late 1800s diversity became ONE under an Ethiopian/African worldview banner, which, I may add, maintained a sovereign state.
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@ talibmensah
“What’s an African worldview?” Simple, an African worldview is viewing the world from the perspective of “Black African” people. This worldview of African people should not be about claiming that everyone and everything is African. Rather, it should be about promoting an African-centered approach for modern African people in regards to a diverse African society and culture.
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Is there any actual archaeological evidence of seafaring ships from the West African coast? Is there any hard evidence? Like where are remnants of shipyards? Or ship parts? There are museums in Scandinavia that house the remains of Viking longboats: http://www.modelships.de/Museums_and_replicas/Vikingeskibsmuseet_Roskilde/gIMG_2882.jpg
Where are the museums housing what remains of precolonial West African ocean-going vessels? I’d love to think that these existed, but I’ve never seen any evidence of it.
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@Tulio
Please let us know what is a “seafaring ship.” And yes, there is archaeological evidence of vessels as old as and bigger than the oldest vessel ever found in Europe.
I’ve never seen viking canoes, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
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Tulio, you’re joking aren’t you? The ancestors of the Vikings likely left Africa for Europe as part of the Hominid seafarers in this story, (http://www.wired.com/2010/01/ancient-seafarers/). The Dufuna canoe discovered in Nigeria is 8,000 years old. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dugout_canoe. East Africans have been navigating the seas between Africa and Asia for over a thousand of years.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/science/anthro/2001-01-07-e-african-seafarers.htm.
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNFEONFKyDw)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgloJZq5jhk)
This information is freely available on the internet. Africans such as Bava Gor
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/focusonafrica/news/story/2007/02/070201_md_africindians.shtml).
Malik Ambar
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malik_Ambar)
and the rulers of Janjira State
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janjira_State)
have left traces of their presence in India and Pakistan.
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Guys rememember the Kon Tiki expedition. People doubted that people in south america could have travelled to Polynesia. There are no shipyards but DNA has proven that they indeed made that trip,
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sea-faring or ocean-going means it’s seaworthy, ie, can be trusted to leave sight of the coast, and big enough to weather storms in the open ocean
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The Fijian wangga ndrua (double-hulled sailing boat) is the largest and finest sea-going vessel ever designed and built by people of the Pacific Islands before contact with Europeans. Wangga ndruas were large, up to 30 meters long, and could carry more than 200 people. It is noted that the Fijians are the best seafarers/navigators of the Pacific. Tongan seafarers learned how to build double-hulled boats from the Fijians. In fact, the timber (or lumber) in Fiji is considered the best wood, which made Fijian boats and canoes so durable.
A Fijian wangga ndrua of 100 plus people (late 19th century)
An early 20th century Fijian wangga ndrua in a Fijian museum
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@”…can be trusted to leave sight of the coast, and big enough to weather storms in the open ocean”
A “big” size is not a prerequisite as small canoes have also been proven to cross the ocean.
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resw77 Is that a fact. Could you site the authority for your remarks
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@Allen Shaw
Sure, since it’s clearly too difficult for you to perform a quick Google search:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/9169092/Adventurer-beats-odds-to-canoe-paddle-solo-across-Atlantic-Ocean.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2611294/Polish-Kayaker-paddles-Atlantic.html
Also note the trajectory of the voyages. Even though they departed Europe, they had to catch a current from West Africa.
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