Repost: The comment section of the original post has grown too long and is still pretty active, so I am closing its comments and reposting here.
“Africans sold their own people as slaves” is a stock argument White Americans use when the subject of slavery comes up.
First, simply as an argument of fact it fails:
- Africa was not a country. Africans were not selling “their own”, they were selling their enemies, just as the Greeks and Romans once did. Africa, then as now, was made up of different countries. They were no more selling “their own” than, say, “Europeans” were killing “their own” during the Holocaust.
And it overlooks a few other things:
- Most African countries did not sell slaves and some even fought against it. But because Europeans back then could control the supply of guns there was little Africans could do to stop it.
- The Transatlantic slave trade was on a much greater scale than anything the Africans or anyone else ever did in the history of slavery. Countries were destroyed and millions died. Over 12 million were sold in less than 400 years, something so huge that it changed the genetic map of the world.
- The Transatlantic slave trade was racist. The African slave trade, for all of its other ills, was not that. Neither was the Greek and Roman slave trade. So slavery in places like Haiti, Barbados and America was much more cruel.
As a moral argument it fails too:
- It uses what I call the Arab Trader argument: it excuses an evil of one’s own past by finding the same sort of evil done by others. Whites sold slaves, but Africans and Arab traders did too! Which, morally speaking, is at the same level as an eight-year-old saying, “He did it too!” when caught doing something bad. We do not accept this argument from eight-year-olds, nor from bank robbers or wife beaters. “Africans did it too!” is no better.
But it is as a derailing argument that it comes into its own:
Its main purpose is to draw attention away from what whites did by turning the tables. That part of their past makes White Americans uncomfortable. But instead of facing up to it, they have built up defences against it:
- Africans sold their own people as slaves.
- Africans are still selling slaves.
- Arab traders sold slaves too.
- Slavery goes back thousands of years.
- All races have practised slavery.
- Whites stopped slavery.
- My family never owned slaves.
- That was Ancient History.
- You are living in the past.
- Get over it!
- It was the times.
- Slavery did not make economic sense.
- Whites got to where they are by their own hard work
- Blacks are better off in America than in Africa
- Africans were savages.
And on and on.
Why not just face up to it? Because part of their sense of self worth is built on being white and how whites are better than everyone else, particularly blacks. But it is a huge lie, a lie that can only be maintained by not looking at their past – and present – squarely and honestly.
See also:
- Transatlantic slave trade
- “Africa is a country”
- other stock defences against slavery:
- reading while white: history and news
- How to argue like a white racist
“The Transatlantic slave trade was racist. The African slave trade, for all of its other ills, was not that. Neither was the Greek and Roman slave trade. So slavery in places like Haiti, Barbados and America was much more cruel.”
Lol, isn’t Haiti “off topic”? All kidding aside, why was the Transatlantic slave trade racist? The answer can’t be because the slaves and masters were of different races because such differences existed when the Romans, Arabs and others ran their slave systems. Maybe the mixture of capitalism, Christianity and democracy is the explanation? As for the cruelty part, I’m not sure that the Romans were any kinder to their galley slaves or those who toiled in the mines.
LikeLike
This matter is going on and on and on forever!
Does it help anyone to attempt to make some difference between how slaves were treated at different places, different times by different people?
If this is a part of a movement then it should be contained inside the movement and the movement should be a part of the subject.
I believe that people in the prisons today are treated worse than slaves. When they leave prison they cannot get jobs and any real assistance to better their lives so they end up back in jail or begging for an existence.
At least a slave had some kind of place to live, no matter how bad and something to eat no matter how bad.
Can we try to solve our current problems now?
LikeLike
Great post. I wonder why racist white people get uncomfortable about their people’s past as slave owning, dehumanizing tyrants. I’d think that if a person were racist it would make their heart leap for joy when they thought back to or saw images/films of black people being enslaved. I saw some guy get a lot of these arguments in a post on Wikipedia when he asked why only one type of African was captured and sold into American slavery. He pointed out that Africa is a country with a lot of different people with different looks and he pointed out that Egypt is in Africa and you never saw Egyptians in slavery films or photographs (long straight hair etc.), it was only the dark skinned coarse haired Africans. Some of the Wikipedia guys used the arguments you mentioned here but the OP must have heard that before because I recall he called them on it.
LikeLiked by 2 people
No Allen, people in prisons today are not treated worse than slaves. Obviously they aren’t even treated as bad as slaves. Having nasty (pig intestines) or dangerous (salmonella chicken) food that white people rejected (ever heard of chicken feet?) to eat and a pitiful, probably parasite-infested slave shanty to live in is NOT appropriate! I don’t even know why you’re HERE if you think like that! But just so it doesn’t start an argument I will say “But you are entitled to your opinion.”… even if it’s clearly racist and wrong.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Pig intestines and chicken feet are considered to be normal food in some parts of the world (eg, where I currently am). I don’t think that eating a certain animal body part, all things considered, means bad or inhumane treatment.
Admittedly, few white Americans have a taste for those and most toss them away as unwanted food.
My maternal grandfather ran a grocery store in Alabama serving mostly white people. However, they saved all those pieces of meat unwanted by whites and gave them away to blacks, who did make meals out of them.
My paternal aunts operated grocery stores in Mississippi serving mostly blacks, so those items were for sale.
LikeLike
@Allen Shaw
You need to read the post. It is simply about a derailment tactic.
Here is a question besides being a hypocrite, what are you doing about current problems?
LikeLike
“Can we try to solve our current problems now?”
Ignoring the past means making the same mistakes in the present.
LikeLiked by 1 person
“Can we solve our current problems now “? Wow, that is an example of this topic, isn’t it? Derailment.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Cow stomach and intestines are a little fatty but tasty. It’s popular here in L.A. prepared as menudo or tacos.
When I grew up we bought a run of chickens and once the roosters were fed out we’d butcher them and fill the freezer. Now we would husk the chicken feet and put them all in a big pot and boil it all down into a broth which we freeze and later use as soup stock or broth.
So I like beef stomach bur pass on beef balls cause I got standards lol
I do miss my grandma’s chicken foot soup..
LikeLiked by 1 person
Oh wow,that’s such a good point! Never thought of that!
LikeLike
This is a great re-post that with a great argument that most white people would like to bury. The descendants of these American slave traders and slave owners would like to either stare the facts in the face and pretend they aren’t there or try to get people to look at something else while they quickly cover up the recent on going results of their racist attitudes.
LikeLike
How about
“Whites enslaved their own children”
“Whites sold their own children as chattel slaves”
“Whites even raped their own children.”
LikeLike
@Abagond
I hear they are sugar-coating history over there to make slavery look like Christmas day. Much of the slavery in West Africa was done through divide and conquer. Go to one tribe, convert them to Christianity (make sure they know Jesus is very pale white and even blond) then arm them and send them out to fight the other tribe. If they refuse, arm their enemies. Force them to sell the captured as slaves in exchange for mirrors, soap and pieces of clothing; enslave them if they refuse.
In the midst of the chaos organize raiding parties and strike a remote village that is peaceful and grab anyone you can find. They still do the same thing all over the world.
LikeLike
@Michael Barker
Did you grow up in the country? That type of diet is normal round here.
LikeLike
@ Sharinalr
My mom and grandma were raised in Missouri on a farm and moved to the L.A. area in 1955. They settled in a place called La Canada which back then were old homes on one acre parcels with horse stables ect. We didn’t have horses but we raised Nubian goats, had chickens and a large garden. Eventually La Canada left L.A. county and became a city. I remember we got a letter from the city that we had too many roosters. My grandma typed out a response on her WW1 era type writer explaining not to worry but that we would be butchering them in two weeks. lol
LikeLike
I think that the Christianization of most tribes happened after the European slave trade had ended in Africa and was more a part of the colonization phase.
LikeLike
Kind said
“I think that the Christianization of most tribes happened after the European slave trade had ended in Africa and was more a part of the colonization phase.”
I think that’s true but keep in mind that the European style Christianity was far different then what existed already in the Islamic areas of North Africa. Islam was very tolerant of both Christians and Jews and allowed for them their own judicial systems to handle internal affairs. Another aspect was usury which was forbidden amongst Christians and Muslims within their religion but legal when money was loaned from a Christian to a Muslim and vise versa.
LikeLike
Reblogged this on Tired Sista.
LikeLike
The saddest thing about this argument is I hear it from people like Henry Louis Gates more so than any white American…He’s always ranting about Africans selling Africans as an argument against reparations, which I’m sure the rich whites who give him money love. Gates has even written this argument in trashy pieces for the New York Times! Before this New York Times piece, Gates tried to use this argument in his African World series for PBS.
LikeLike
So its the white mans fault that blacks enslaved their own kind and even brought them to america on their own accord, or that the slave tragedy was invented by white man whom landed in America. Also might I point out that the “Black Lives Matter” movement follows the same ignorance as this post does seeing as how as of October of 2015 321 WHITE lives have been taken by police, while 174 Black lives have.
But black lives are so much more important then whites, but yet Whites are the ones “not facing up to it” or “derailing” the issues… Sounds to me like the author thinks that black lives are more important then everyone else to me, not whites thinking they are better then everyone else as the author claims… But as they say, ignorance is bliss right? Try talking to a history professor sometime there buddy!
It blows my mind that Jews are able to live their lives after 6 million were killed and are going on without all the drama and ignorance blogs and authors like this bring to the table. So yea, blacks deserve all the retribution, and whites are to blame for all their current issues too… Whites were the first people to stop slavery in modern times, whereas slavery still continues in Africa to this day. Good job Blacks, since you guys demand so much recognition, your doing it all right!
LikeLike
@Donny
You are 3 paragraphs short of logic.Or common sense for that matter. Nothing in the post said a thing about it being the “white mans” fault. It stated how this is a common argument used to excuse slavery in America. In short…he did it too.
“October of 2015 321 WHITE lives have been taken by police, while 174 Black lives have.”—Actually the numbers are higher than these, but if we play with stats a bit more whites are killed as a result of being more of the population. Numbers reveal that blacks are still more likely.
“Whites were the first people to stop slavery in modern times, whereas slavery still continues in Africa to this day.”—You have a lot to learn. Do a little research and see that slavery did not stop. It just is not as public. Besides African slavery was not white spread and most certainly can not be compared to American slavery in terms on degree and make up.
LikeLike
@Donny
““Whites were the first people to stop slavery in modern times”
The 13th Amendment says otherwise
LikeLike
@ Donny
Last I checked, unarmed Black and Native Americans are five times more likely to be killed by police in the US than unarmed Whites. There are way more Whites, so their absolute numbers can be higher.
And, in case you do not already know, the US has a long history of carrying out racist policies that hurt Whites too. But Whites turn a blind eye to that, I notice.
LikeLike
Slavery (or what we put under the general category of “forced labour”) still goes on today. No one has ever stopped it, including whites.
LikeLike
“Whites were the first people to stop slavery in modern times, whereas slavery still continues in Africa to this day.”
White people stopped slavery???
It seems like I’ve been addressing too many idiots of late. It’s very tiresome, and I have better things to do. So I’m going to speak to you only once! I don’t expect your thinking to change. But maybe some young person reading this can see that 1+1=2 and not 11, as your senseless logic suggests.
1- What do you call the forced (under-paid) labor that goes on today in the US’ prison industrial complex where Black and Brown people are disproportionately convicted and jailed compared to whites for using the same (unsanctioned) drugs?
2- What other country cages people anywhere near the numbers as your FREEDOM LOVING Amerika does??
3- Why do the police arrest far more dark skin people more than they do light skin people when their crime rates are virtually the same?
Amerika, where a Black man like Glenn Ford in Louisiana can be routinely convicted of a murder that he didn’t do, because it’s easier and convenient to get any Black man convicted rather than the guilty party, spend 30 years in the joint, narrowly escape execution, and when he’s discovered innocent his only monetary compensation for all those years of wrongful imprisonment is a $20 gift certificate. Mr. Ford recently died, penniless. But you better believe that the state and prison system that harbored this man and other INNOCENTS like him made much profit!
If this system/racket isn’t a type of slavery, to force Black and Brown people to labor for little to no pay for mostly white owned corporations, then nothing is.
The last time I looked it wasn’t Black or Brown people who organized and profited from this nationwide racket. You say white people ended slavery?
Perhaps you ought to research Amerika’s history, debt based Sharecropping, debt based Tenant Farming, Black Codes, another peonage/debt based system.. and a PBS documentary called, Slavery By Another Name. This is only a small portion of what some WHITE people have done to preserve white supremacy into the present day apparatus now in place to hold on to privileges and benefits for themselves at the expense of others, on the backs of descendants of the original slaves, TODAY.
You should have read the Broken Records section here, or at least some of the posts the blog owner has written before sounding off with your BS. You may have learned some things instead of wasting our time with your silly gibberish. At any rate, I’m done with you.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Donny,
There’s always someone like you who did not read the post or understand its context. Additionally, you did the VERY thing abagond outlined in this post.
Others have already covered off on some of your “points,” however I want to specifically focus on your comments about Jews.
1) Why are you comparing a historical incident that happened in EUROPE to US slavery? Two drastically different experiences and outcomes. And yet you treat slavery with such indifference it boggles my mind.
2) Had you done any research, you would know that post the holocaust, the German leaders apologized for the country’s role in this atrocity. As part of that apology, many Jewish families were compensated along with resettlement to Isreal. Chancellor Willy Brandt fell on his knees in front of a Holocaust memorial in the Warsaw Ghetto, also known as the Warschauer Kniefall in 1970. Germany also paid extensive reparations, including nearly $70 billion to the state of Israel. It has given $15 billion to Holocaust survivors and will continue to compensate them until 2015. Additionally, the German government settled with German companies that had used slave labor during the war; the companies will pay $1.7 billion to victims. Germany also established a National Holocaust Memorial Museum in Berlin for looted property.
Let’s see…. Former US slaves were promised 40 acres and a mule. However, by the time Whites saw the wealth that would have created for slaves that promise was not delivered. Instead, Black Americans received Reconstruction, 100 years of Jim Crow, Black Wall Street, Sun down towns, the Civil Rights Movement, “War on Drugs”, Redlining, Redistricting and the Prison Industrial Complex. In spite of that, Black America continued to build a strong middle class and throughout history has always had prominent business owners (pre and post slavery), inventors, innovators, and movers and shakers that you could easily read about instead of spewing ignorance or getting misinformation from Stormfront. What WE ARE TIRED OF.. is people like you who act as if White Supremacy just magically went away over the years. We are very resilient people. We are not going to stop speaking up for basic humanity and decent rights. Something a compassionate person understands.
When you can come back to this blog having actually LEARNED something, then maybe I’ll entertain you again. As Fan said, ” At any rate, I’m done with you.”
LikeLiked by 2 people
I wouldn’t call Blacks in America ‘slaves’. We have more of a ‘metric’ status (like those in Ancient Greece).
LikeLike
Current Blacks – not historical
LikeLike
One of the funny things I realized about the “Africans, Arabs, etc. did slavery too!” argument (essentially a generalized Arab Trader argument) is that it is used to say Whites were no worse than anyone else, and then it’s often followed up with arguments to suggest why they are better than everyone else (i.e. Supremacist Racism), but what the racists don’t realize is that you can just as easily turn it around and say it says Whites were no better than anyone else. Yet it’s the same set of historical facts, just change the order of words around. Everyone else engaged in slavery, and so too did Whites. But say it that way, and the racists bitch and moan with reckless abandon. There’s a real double standard here, a double standard stacked against the darker-hued peoples of the world.
@jefe: Indeed. Not only has it not stopped, there may now be more slaves than there ever were.
It’s interesting to note that Whites used the idea of “stopping slavery” as an excuse for colonialism in Africa, like they were doing something good — but the “good” thing was implemented by mass cultural and worldview destruction and mass murder, both intellectual and physical genocide, together with backhanded land and resource theft. Essentially, destruction of bother slaver and slave for the liberator’s own gain. I call it Treachery. Is it historically unique? Not in nature, but quite possibly in scale. And it didn’t stop it. But that was probably because not only was it answering brutality with brutality, but also because “ending slavery” was merely a front for the real purpose: getting rich (and of course, not for the majority of the peoples of Europe, but the kings and big company people, at least first and foremost.).
LikeLike
First let me begin by stating that my Great, Great, Great Grandfather was African American. However, I’m Caucasian. My Great Great Great Grandmother snuck out of the “house” into the side quarters to me with him.
Further, in far from proud that my GGG Grandparents were slave owners. In my opinion that’s the absolute must horrific thing many of our ancestors did. BUT! that wasn’t my fault. I cannot do anything about what my ancestors did. It would ludicrous to blame us for their transgressions.
Having said that, where is you unedited, documented proof that the Africans did not sell their own people?
I’m simple wanting to educate myself so that I can make a more informed statement when questioned regarding this.
Oh one more thing;
My earthly father was beyond prejudice. To the point I verbally fought with him constantly. I was the only one in the family unafraid to tell him how dead wrong he was. Later in life he gave up to the Lord and found out how horribly wrong he had been.
Thank you for your time and may God bless you all.
God sees NO color. ❤
LikeLike
Crystal did you read the article?
Abagond’s argument is not that African kings did not sell other Blacks into slavery. His argument is that they were not “selling their own people” in the sense that they did not see themselves as one big huge Black race, but as a collection of different “peoples” (or races) who had brown skin. It would be like the English conquering France and selling some of the conquered French people to be workers in China.
LikeLike
If Africans sold their own people as slaves, then Europeans sent their own people to the concentration camps.
LikeLiked by 2 people
you post all these “defensive derails” but don’t post the sentence you used to make someone react that way…and just say that this is what people say when slavery is brought up…but most people agree that slavery was a horrible thing…it’s when you accuse someone for something that they might say one of these “derails” …so what are you accusing “White” people of (do you mean American people?? English people???…Polish?))
It’s like going up to a German and saying ” you should be ashamed for what happened in WW2″
LikeLike
I get what the article is about…my comment was towards blaming and generalizing all white people for the deeds of individuals…kinda like when people blame all African Cheifs for selling slaves…
LikeLike
V
Then please by all means quote where the artilce ever said ALL white people, because if you see that in it then yo do not get what the article is about at all.
LikeLike
@V
The statement itself is a derailment. It does not matter what it is in response to as it serves the purpose of pushing blame on the other rather than acknowledging their part. Often times slavery is not even brought up except when the white person seeks to bring it up to, again, derail. Prime example, I was on a thread talking about black mistreatment with cops. A white guy enters the conversation and the first thing out his mouth was about how not to blame whites. He went on to state that had it not been for their ancestors (black commenters) selling them, then they would not get such privileges.
You really only seem to be defending your right to derail as you did in the end of your second comment.
LikeLike
I see…agree with what you’re saying when people go off topic with derails…my comment was off topic for the most part….except that I see a lot of people using “derails” but that’s only with comments like “all white people are slaves owners” or “only white people can do evil things” ect ect…
LikeLike
Due to your example I understand how they can be used as derails…but I was mainly talking about using same phrases due to nasty comments on people…social media sites nowadays >.>
LikeLike
@V
I get what you are saying, but the scenarios you are making up don’t even happen in the real world. No one ever says ALL and making a nasty comment does not excuse making a derailment comment.
LikeLike
Right, to me there’s only a couple of those phrases that I was talking about in regards to defend yourself and not derail someone…most of the derails are like “ah who cares…or forget about it” mainly to flip it….I wasn’t really referring to … yeah outside of online/fb I don’t ever hear people talk like that…
LikeLike
I do see what you mean though ..instead of derailing…just stay on topic and argue.
LikeLike
maybe argue is the wrong word…discuss >.> talking too much specifics about something off topic…my apologies.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Abagond, I would like to Thank you for that beautiful post. I’m sick of hearing all these excuses for the behavior Caucasians in America. Thank you!
LikeLiked by 1 person
You make some very good points there agabond.
LikeLike
Im sorry, but ive never in my life heard a white person (or anyone for that matter) claim that white people didnt own slaves, or claim that they werent treated poorly. We all know and aknowledge our past. Just because its not all we ever talk about doesnt mean we’re denying it. That being said, if i hear someone say the old “my people were stolen by whites” cliche, i wont hesitate to correct you.
LikeLike
My dear friend slavery existed in the United States from somewhere around 1621 until 1865.
It’s true that the tradition of tribes were to sale their captives into slavery; however there was no intention that they would be shipped to some foreign nation which they were unaware of.
It is foolish to say that the treatment that slaves received in the United States was a result of the selling of slaves by Africans any more than it is to say that a person that sells a gun to someone is responsible for them using the gun to shoot someone.
Nothing that I say here is going to convince you or change your mind. You have fixed your mind on what you wish to believe so you should continue to believe and say that. Others will determine how foolish you sound.
Prejudice is based on ignorance and those that are ignorant cannot change because they do not allow information to enter their mind.
Have a good day
LikeLike
You have no idea what you’re talking about….http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/41431
LikeLike
@Dan Boyle,
Your source doesn’t refute what he said. Perhaps reading comp is in order or perhaps you can try reading your source.
LikeLike
There is no argument or excuse for taking slaves. Then or now. Regardless of color. That said, the original post is completely hollow as a line of logic or debate. “Africa is not a country”. Nor are whites a country or a common people as your example of the Holocaust pointed out. ” It was the times”. Well it was the times. That is not an excuse, yet it is fact. The Romans had slaves fight to the death in the Coliseum. We would probably frown on that today. “Blacks sold their own people”. Well it’s true. That does not in any way excuse what white slave traders and owners did. What it does say is African rulers and traders participated and were not without guilt. It’s not a way to deflect an evil part of history. ” its like an 8 year old saying he did it too “. Bringing all facts to a thorough and worthwhile discussion is the only way to have a discussion that’s meaningful. ” My family didn’t own slaves”. Well most didn’t. And if they did, does that make the person today guilty of something. Is any people or person responsible for the vile sins of his forefathers? Is the grandson of a murderer to be responsible for his grandfather’s deeds? My only point is each of these points I mention was brought up as proof of something. That this was a great evil. It was. But what is the result hoped for? That someone today could fathom the thought process of doing this? I can’t. I don’t understand subjugating anyone. In the Holocaust 600,000 people died. In less than 10 years. Almost 20,000,000 people under Russian control died in World War Two. Certainly only a very few of the upper class. Romans and Greeks put captured troops on the front lines to be slaughtered and wear out their enemy. Man has thousands of years of evil acts against man. Hopefully as a civilization, all of mankind grows and evolves. No one, that I know anyway, other than ignorant fools, would argue that any part of slavery was justified. My question is what allows people to progress an the Human Race going forward?
LikeLike
Yes everyone is correct there is no excuse for anyone having slaves.
Now what can be done about the past.
A relative small number of people owned slaves in this nation (393,975 equal 8% of population 1860) 15 slave states all south of the Mason Dixon line plus 2 state with total of 17 slaves), and they are all dead.
Most were White, some were Black and some were native Americans. There were 31,183,582 people living in the United States. There were 3,950,528 slaves 13% of the population.
31,183,582 population 1860
-3,950,528 Slaves 1860
27,233,054 free Black and White and maybe some native Americans 1860.
-393,975 slave holding families
26,233,054 non slave holders
Because cotton, rice and tobacco were the main southern produce it was not likely that people living in non slave states benefited as much as many would think.
Finally if you look into the south where slavery existed you would find millions of non slave holders.
http://www.civil-war.net/pages/1860_census.html
The majority of individuals living in this nation have no ancestors who owned slaves. Review the immigration of Europeans into this nation prior to, during and after the Civil War up until about 1965.
When calculating 25 years as a bases for one generation approximately 6 generation of Blacks have not been slaves.
***********************************************************************************
JIM CROW
Now talk about Jim Crow and you have a subject that is still current. Jim Crow has done far more damage to the Black race then slavery, yet it is rarely mentioned in discussions.
Could someone discuss Jim Crow and it devastating affects.
How are we going to encourage our young Blacks to get an education of some type that will enable them to earn a living and have some pride in their accomplishments. The drop out rate continues to remain high and not enough effort is being put into salvaging those individuals who drop out.
LikeLike
Allen Shaw
I strongly suggest that you find and watch, Hidden Colors 3.
This documentary might give you some perspective on why YOU see what you see – bass ackwards.
Slavery–> Black Codes–> Slavery again (but by another name) –> Lynching–> Jim Crow–> Sundown Towns –> Civil Rights Era –> NEW Jim Crow –> New Lynching Era (Dead UNARMED Black people terminated/murdered for simply being Black!) Of course each of the above periods overlap with other eras., but it all began with slavery. That’s why people discuss it. It is Amerika’s ROOT CAUSE of its race issues!
“How are we going to encourage our young Blacks to get an education of some type that will enable them to earn a living and have some pride in their accomplishments. The drop out rate continues to remain high and not enough effort is being put into salvaging those individuals who drop out.”
As far as I know most Black people have always exhibited pride in their accomplishments! Reaching goals is a big deal for Black people because we have overcome the gargantuan odds, challenges and race based barriers stacked against us on the road to our success.
None, or very few of the Brothers I went to High School with dropped out.
Most completed HS, yet many would later would drop out of college for a variety of well documented reasons. Many have returned to earn their degree.
Some go to technical schools, others opt for OJT or careers in the military. To hear you tell it, it seems you’re of the opinion that most Blacks aren’t middle class.
Instead of voicing this same old tired mantra ad nauseam, why aren’t you inspiring those of us here by sharing exactly WHAT YOU’RE DOING to curtail this supposedly “high” Black drop out rate??
After all, if you’re not a of the solution, then you’re a part of the problem, right????
LikeLiked by 1 person
There is no argument or excuse for taking slaves.
Ever hear of marriage?
That said, the original post is completely hollow as a line of logic or debate. “</em.
You're right. I would have preferred he write about high-end purses! but noo, he writes about social things.
My question is what allows people to progress an the Human Race going forward?
How about a meal at Hardees?
LikeLike
How are we going to encourage our young Blacks to get an education of some type that will enable them to earn a living and have some pride in their accomplishments.
Maybe they can become like Stepenfetchit. The white folks won’t feel intimidated by them and will give them a job. They must be manoeuvred into menial jobs when the Mexicans are deported.
The drop out rate continues to remain high and not enough effort is being put into salvaging those individuals who drop out.
How do you know this? From which sources is statement derived? I can tell you from lived experience and by studies, here in Canada at least these problems are systemic. It is by dint of will when people overcome it.
LikeLike
You can still be a conservative without pandering to white supremacy Shaw.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@Herneith
” They must be manoeuvred into menial jobs when the Mexicans are deported.”
Why bother with maneuvering when you can (in worst case scenarios):
A. Pass laws that require every Black person to have a job or they will be arrested as “vagrants” and forced to work for free as prisoners. States in the old Confederacy did this after the Civil War as part of the Black Codes. Those laws were the basis of the Convict Leasing Program that survives to this day.
B. Skip all of the legal niceties and just round up entire neighborhoods and truck them off to forced labor camps. With lawless leaders this is not as far-fetched as it seems.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I think my ways cheaper and more humane. What say you, Allan Shaw?
LikeLike
My Comment: Now talk about Jim Crow and you have a subject that is still current. Jim Crow has done far more damage to the Black race then slavery, yet it is rarely mentioned in discussions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws
“Maybe they can become like Stepenfetchit. The white folks won’t feel intimidated by them and will give them a job.”
I doubt if you know any thing about the man nor the time so you should be careful about making remarks about the past. If you do not like him do not watch the movies.
“As far as I know most Black people have always exhibited pride in their accomplishments! Reaching goals is a big deal for Black people because we have overcome the gargantuan odds, challenges and race based barriers stacked against us on the road to our success.”
I guess you mean for those who today are called successful and are not without jobs or education or do not have any opportunity to learn a meaningful trade. And no, no one said anything about manual labor, if there was any available.
So some of you do not believe we have an unemployment problem within the Black male population and none of them need to seek any higher level training.
None, or very few of the Brothers I went to High School with dropped out.
https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d15/tables/dt15_219.80.asp
Almost 8% dropout rate. That I believe does not include those who dropped out and then took a GED test or it equivalent.
Now just because you see the name Allen Shaw does not mean you should not read the comment and you should just fire back some nonsense.
My point is that Jim Crow has had a far greater impact on the race then slavery. Since Black people owned slaves as well as Whites it has to be assumed that it was acceptable at that time in that place where it was allowed. Also nothing can be done about it today. See my stats in my last comment to see how few slave owners there were in comparison the the population.
Perhaps you should have spent some time reading about Jim Crow before you responded.
Stop assuming that I have not studied the problem of this nation. Try to open your mind and think that perhaps I am trying to add some positive thoughts to stimulate your “little gray cells”. (Poirot)
The heavy concentration of Blacks in the South East and the metropolitan areas separates many from any meaningful contact with Whites; therefor the jobs would not be working for “White Folks”. There is work to be done in the Black community today that are not being done because of the lack of trained labor.
Example Houses with old windows which need to be repaired when the glass is broken and needs caulking.” A person could make good money repairing the many homes that have broken glass panes and rotten ropes.
What jobs do you think are appropriate for unskilled workers to do?
LikeLike
@Allen Shaw
You have a command of facts and figures, but seem to ignore history and the interlocking systems of anti-Black racism in the US and throughout the Diaspora.
Your reasoning reminds me of White women I heard on busses years ago who clucked and criticized Black people for dilapidated houses and trash in the streets of poor Black neighborhoods. They were blithely unaware that people in their communities:
☛owned the dilapidated houses and land in the Black communities.
☛worked city jobs that made decisions to not pick up trash, sweep the streets or fill potholes in Black communities because it was populated with Black folk (and who cared about them or their communities?).
☛worked as police who roamed the streets of those Black communities, beating and killing Black community members with total impunity. Their actions terrorized and traumatized Black individuals and families already suffering from intergenerational trauma rooted in slavery. More about post slavery trauma:
http://joydegruy.com/resources-2/post-traumatic-slave-syndrome/
☛sat on school boards that restricted the flow of resources to Black schools because it was just Black children they were shortchanging (and who cares about Black children?).
☛worked in banks that redlined the Black communities so that average working people of that era could not obtain loans to maintain their homes. This contributed to the housing stock becoming dilapidated, thus lowering the value of the homes. The houses were easy to buy at county tax auctions by people in White communities who paid minimal amounts to purchase and maintain the houses for maximum gain.
Those women looked at consequences, but never considered causes or the damaging systems behind trash in the streets. It is easy to miss the big picture when a person is focused on minutiae.
LikeLike
“anti-Black racism in the US and throughout the Diaspora”
Jews living outside Israel.
the dispersion of the Jews beyond Israel.
the dispersion of any people from their original homeland.
plural noun: diasporas
“the diaspora of boat people from Asia”
the people so dispersed.
“the Ukrainian diaspora flocked back to Kiev”
Origin
capitalized a : the settling of scattered colonies of Jews outside Palestine after the Babylonian exile b : the area outside Palestine settled by Jews c : the Jews living outside Palestine or modern Israel
2
a : the movement, migration, or scattering of a people away from an established or ancestral homeland b : people settled far from their ancestral homelands c : the place where these people live
diasporic play \ˌdī-ə-ˈspȯr-ik\ adjective
So no one other than Blacks have a hard time in the “Diaspora”!
Who are all of those people being killed in Syria and the Middle East, they certainly are not Black.
Now one again did you really read my comments or did you just hop on the keys because you saw my name and ass u me ed that you understood what I was saying.
All of your comments fit under the heading of “JIM CROW” which I ask you to study. You diD a Very good job of describing JIM CROW!
LikeLike
The Study Guide is designed to help individuals, groups, and organizations better understand the functional and dysfunctional attitudes and behaviors that have been transmitted to us through multiple generations; behaviors that we are now transmitting to others in our environments of home, school, and work and within the larger society.
The Guide encourages and broadens the discussion and implications about the specific issues that were raised in the book “Post Traumatic Slave Syndrome: America’s Legacy of Enduring Injury and Healing.”The Study Guide provides
useful and practical tools to help the reader develop skills aimed at transforming negative attitudes and behaviors into positive ones.
LikeLike
@Allen Shaw
Slavery is the original crime and the basis for Jim Crow. All of your harping about Jim Crow as if it was a stand alone period in American history is just a way to deflect and distract from the foundational crime of slavery.
Your inclusion of:
✖︎non-Black groups (in the US and overseas) in your arguments,
✖︎deflective arguments about who owned the slaves,
✖︎deflective arguments about the percentage of slave owners (in a society where slaves were a major capital investment, of course only a small percentage of the population owned them),
✖︎deflective arguments about geographic concentrations of Black people (an illogical argument that no one would make about other groups),
is an indication to me that you have guzzled a lot of White Supremacist koolaid or you have not read as deeply into this country’s history as you could. Both situations are correctable. I hope you choose to correct both.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I doubt if you know any thing about the man nor the time so you should be careful about making remarks about the past. If you do not like him do not watch the movies.
I know plenty about the Stepefetchit character and the times he was active in hence my comparison to you. Lincoln Perry had to take that role in order to work consistently(for which he was paid well), on the side he wrote for the Chicago Defender. What’s your excuse in this day and age when, according to you, things have improved greatly?
LikeLike
@To all who believe Slavery is the root cause:
Slavery has existed as far back in history as the bible and everywhere in the world since.
What is the difference between one slavery and another.
You desire to make slavery the problem when it is some other problem altogether.
So be it!
I am done with this conversation so do not expect any more responses.
LikeLike
@Allen Shaw
“I am done with this conversation so do not expect any more responses.”
Finally! I hope we have your guarantee on that.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@Afrofem:
Golly gee I did not know that you were a “we” I thought you were one person.
Glad to know that you are multiple person and you speak for others as well as for one.
Perhaps all of “you all” can start to read some actual history of the world instead of concentrating on one narrow subject.
Now you can have the last word!
LikeLike
@ Allen Shaw
“Perhaps all of ‘you all’ can start to read some actual history of the world instead of concentrating on one narrow subject.”
Excuse me, but did you just imply that the history of race-based chattel slavery in the U.S. is not actual history? Seriously??
Perhaps you haven’t noticed, but Abagond’s blog is one of the most historically expansive I’ve ever seen. He covers historical topics from the very earliest civilizations down to the present day in every part of the world, concerning all races and many cultures. I don’t know where you get the idea that Abagond and his readership only “concentrat[e] on one narrow subject.”
LikeLiked by 1 person
When are people going to learn how to read. My remark stated that slavery is and has been all over the world?
Where did you read that slavery was not history. Where did I say that “race-based chattel slavery” was not history?
When was their a period in the United States when African American could not and did not own slaves?
What I tried to say is that African American should find out that JIM CROW has been the main problem in this nation, and I ask every one to study JIM CROW which started about 1848. (without me going back looking tonight)
Please do not read into my statements anything that I do not say.
I am sure that all other people who have been enslaved suffered just as much as the African Americans, yet they have somehow overcome the stigma and moved on. The Jews have been mistreated by almost every nation on the face of the earth, yet they continue to struggle.
The Romans enslaved almost everyone and actually made them fight wars for them.
Perhaps you should study the poor uneducated White people in this nation instead of looking at the rich ones. There school drop out rate is higher and their unemployment rates are high.
Perhaps you should look at the number of successful African Americans in this nation instead of looking at those who have not achieved or college graduates who perceive they have been held back because they were African American.
The few individuals that comment regularly on this site cannot even establish that they themselves have been victimized.
I lived among the poor African Americans for over 40 years and I have seen poor children of welfare mothers move up the ladder as high as senior leadership in large organizations and I have seen other drink and drug themselves to death while being employed by GM. Nothing held them back but their own lack of drive.
Now blog back and tell me that all African Americans are mentally damaged because 150 years ago some of their ancestors may have been slaves.
LikeLike
Slavery is a black eye on the human existence period..
All the conversation regarding the past
will solve nothing, the only hope would be to learn and not repeat.
The true problem with slavery is today.
Africa, China , India, Russia being the largest offenders. Nearly 30 million people are presently held as slaves in one form or another throughout the world.
This is where our focus should be.
We cannot right the deeds of the past they are sealed. The future is ours to write.
There are many organizations dedicated to fighting modern slavery…
I advise spending some time researching and
Investing your passions in an arena of happening concern.
I wish all of you the best …
LikeLike
@ Wil Jones
“The true problem with slavery is today.”
Not true.
The effects of American chattel slavery are still felt by the descendants of slaves generations later. Until those effects have been rectified by reparations, the problem persists.
Another way slavery is still present in the USA is through free prison labor as per the 13th Amendment to the Constitution. That system is as strong now as it was in 1871.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Whenever someone says how Africans just forced Africans on whites, I like to point them out to another slave trade that whites had that went pretty similar…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_among_Native_Americans_in_the_United_States
” The increased rise of the gun-slave trade forced the other tribes to participate or their refusal to engage in enslaving meant they would become targets of slavers.”
LikeLiked by 1 person
The bottom line is this… Slavery in America was an atrocity and some Americans, (We know which ones) refuse to accept the fact that their ancestors were barbaric murders and rapists who hated anything that didnt look like them. Your ancestors were evil men and that same evil still flows through the blood of their kin. Thats why they say things like, Africans sold their own, as if that makes it okay. It does not erase what europeans descendants did to slaves in this country for hundreds of years… That shame is what they want distance themselves from. Try and deny this all you want early americans were savages and a disgrace to mankind.
LikeLiked by 2 people
4-8 percent of whites were slave owners.
28 percent of blacks were slave owners in America…and even native Americans owned slaves.
This is not to say more blacks had slaves as there were more numbers of whites in America. It is a percentage representation.
When people speak of reparations are all groups being targeted or just whites?
And when you your a blind eye toward modern slavery worldwide and focus on American prison work programs, insinuated as slavery it becomes rather difficult to gauge one’s intent.
The research to validate my opening statement is not difficult to find in fact a simple search.
LikeLike
@Wil Jones
“4-8 percent of whites were slave owners.”
First, not all whites had the right to own slaves. Only those in places where slavery was legal. Second, Census records from 1860 show 32% of southern white families owned slaves. In Mississippi it was nearly 50%.
“28 percent of blacks were slave owners in America…and even native Americans owned slaves.”
No more than 15% of blacks in slave states were free during slavery. So that’s obviously not true.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@Wil Jones
“When people speak of reparations are all groups being targeted or just whites?”
There has been extensive commentary about reparations on this blog. These posts and the comment threads cover many aspects of the reparations issue:
Insistence on labeling 13th Amendment prison slavery (aka unpaid labor after conviction of a crime) as “American prison work programs, insinuated as slavery” indicates a blind eye to the reality of all dimensions of modern American slavery.
LikeLiked by 1 person
http://americancivilwar.com/authors/black_slaveowners.htm
Regarding prisons
In the state I volunteered in for ten years
To work outside the facility was voluntary. An account was allotted to the men for commissary or savings also some of their sentence could be reduced. Violent offenders were not permitted.
All men had a roof, bed and meals no work was required.
LikeLike
Correction:
“…indicates a blind eye to that dimension of modern slavery”.
LikeLike
@Wil Jones It is kind of silly talking about how many people owned slaves. Kinda like a red herring.
Some slave owners owned many slaves, while others only owned one and the living conditions were different.
The Black slave owners normally owned a smaller number of slaves, except for a very few rich Blacks.
The condition of living in the different parts of the south always needs to be considered.
Actually Will you are not well informed about the subject. You are like the current illiterate Trump supporters who read the Conservative Publications and tune into FOX.
Take a trip to the Library and ask for some research assistance on the subject. Do not try to do the research without help.
LikeLike
“In the state I volunteered in for ten years
To work outside the facility was voluntary. An account was allotted to the men for commissary or savings also some of their sentence could be reduced. Violent offenders were not permitted.
All men had a roof, bed and meals no work was required”
Will please provide those of us who do not like to say that you lie, the name of the state and prison and the time that you were ‘volunteered in’ I would like to review the policies and see who the prisoners were for myself.
Will, your failure to provide the information means that you are probably lying.
LikeLike
Allen Shaw
Will please provide those of us who do not like to say that you lie, the name of the state and prison and the time that you were ‘volunteered in’ I would like to review the policies and see who the prisoners were for myself.
Interesting that you insist people provide evidence to back up their assertions – a thing that you yourself wont do on the Tulsa race riot post…
Will, your failure to provide the information means that you are probably lying.
You will accept that this also could be said about you too, right?
LikeLiked by 1 person
An open mind makes me not well informed? And an opinion other than yours earns a profile?
Interesting.
Your other point being if you owned a smaller number of slaves it was less evil..also interesting.
And still no one is taking on the 30 million in slavery today worldwide..
I suppose taking on India, China, Russia, and Africa would be a lot to ask. Much easier to complain about the past in America. Interesting…
Thank you for you in depth critique of my post.
LikeLike
First I never insisted anyone do anything.
Second I never mentioned the Tulsa race riot..
I worked free in Florida’s system for 10 years as a chaplain
I taught men life skills based on biblical understanding being mindful always of the diverse faith background in the room and alwAys respectful.
I also taught anger management and sat with men for up to four hours who were considered suicide risks..
I provided email contact so when they were released they would have a healthy connection.
I also taught in a prison for youthful offenders. This was in Broward and Brevard counties in Florida.
I also worked free with a homeless mission in Hollywood Florida for five years.
I found the jail and prison work more rewarding as the people I dealt with were sober and receptive.
If you believe I am a liar it is no big deal to me. You cannot take from me the things I learned about how small I really am in the big picture of all things. The lessons I learned about what is truly important. The relations formed in a place of seemingly no hope. The stories told to me by men of all races. The tears , the hugs, the fears, the anger… The families I would meet while shopping or in a movie with the grateful men who had gone home.
I need prove nothing my heart was healed in jail my life is better for time served.
LikeLike
@ Wil Jones
“First I never insisted anyone do anything. Second I never mentioned the Tulsa race riot..”
Omnipresent’s comment was directed to Allen Shaw and not at you. Scroll back up and look at the beginning of Omnipresent’s post.
“When people speak of reparations are all groups being targeted or just whites?”
Usually the entity being targeted is the U.S. government, which codified chattel slavery in the constitution, profited enormously from slavery, and has the ability to pay reparations.
“And still no one is taking on the 30 million in slavery today worldwide..”
That’s actually been discussed here many times. However, it’s not the topic of this thread.
“Much easier to complain about the past in America.”
The past is still pertinent. White people use arguments such as the one examined in this article not only to justify past slavery but to justify or excuse or deny current ongoing racism.
Something to consider: the historical numbers of black Americans who owned black slaves includes free blacks who bought family members out of slavery. A husband who could work his way to freedom would then continue saving money to buy his wife and children. Sometimes it would happen the other way and a woman would buy her husband. Both women and men would buy their parents, their siblings, their nieces and nephews. They were purchasing the freedom of their family members, not purchasing slaves to serve them, but in the historical records it is marked as a purchase of a human being same as any other transaction involving slaves.
LikeLike
@ Wil Jones said “First I never insisted anyone do anything. Second I never mentioned the Tulsa race riot..”
Solitaire said “Omnipresent’s comment was directed to Allen Shaw and not at you. Scroll back up and look at the beginning of Omnipresent’s post”.
Wil Jones – Solitaire is correct. My comment was not to you but to Allen Shaw.
LikeLike
I use discussion to create perspective.
Not justify the wrongs of the past, slavery, not the present, racism.
I’m either front.
I am also aware of the scenario
Presented by you regarding the practice of investing to set free. This is historical fact yet not always the case as I am certain you are aware of.
The past is not to be forgotten this is also a truth but not to be used as a weapon or excuse but to remind us always of the damage, pain and hardship brought on by such inhumane treatment of human beings…
Which brings to my initial point..
In the world today some 30 million people are enslaved worldwide…
Would not the energy invested caused by justifiable anger be better served and the horror of the past be attained for by confronting wrong where it exists? Thus creating a new era of pride and purpose on a new battlefield as in the case of Thailand’s child sex trade where children are bought and sold by the sick and diseased of this world…
LikeLike
CORRECTIONS… I use discussion to create perspective.
Not justify the wrongs of the past, slavery, not the present, racism.
On either front.
I am also aware of the scenario
Presented by you regarding the practice of investing to set free. This is historical fact yet not always the case as I am certain you are aware of.
The past is not to be forgotten this is also a truth but not to be used as a weapon or excuse but to remind us always of the damage, pain and hardship brought on by such inhumane treatment of human beings…
Which brings to my initial point..
In the world today some 30 million people are enslaved worldwide…
Would not the energy invested caused by justifiable anger be better served and the horror of the past be attoned for by confronting wrong where it exists? Thus creating a new era of pride and purpose on a new battlefield as in the case of Thailand’s child sex trade where children are bought and sold by the sick and diseased of this world…
LikeLike
@ Wil Jones
“Would not the energy invested caused by justifiable anger be better served and the horror of the past be attained for by confronting wrong where it exists?”
1) Do you believe there is only enough energy to sustain one or the other? Why can’t someone do both?
2) Why aren’t you telling white people to concentrate on eliminating modern-day slavery to absolve the sins of their past?
LikeLike
Solitude,
I failed to respond to your first question..my apologies.
Of course you are free to take on as many fronts as you want..
A good strategist understands,
It is good to remember the more battles you engage in the more thin your resources become.
Choose your battles
Invest you energies where they will make the most meaningful impact.
LikeLike
Possibly my post did not post..
If you read this my bad..
I do post on posts of people representing many nationalities my opinions on modern slavery.. Your question may be why am I posting here?
In answer to that I am drawn by the passion reflected here.
In any battle against wrong passion is a powerful weapon.
10 inspired beats 100 tired every time.
And the battle against modern slavery is huge!!
I support the modern version of the underground railroad.. And it has representation from many people’s of the world.
There are many such organizations a simple search reveals them.
Be cautious some may be scam sites so read reviews.
The battle against injustice is ongoing
My hope is one day we shall all stand as one people free men and women in mind and body and the chains and shackles separating us shall be no more..
LikeLike
A person must do what a person must do.
Do your research.
I am not engaged in a debate.
LikeLike
@Will Jones
Learn to read your source. It states “John Hope Franklin, records that in New Orleans over 3,000 free Negroes owned slaves, or 28 percent of the free Negros.” That does not mean 28 percent of all blacks that existed in the US at the times.
LikeLike
Also Will, slavery is going on in America too, but people are so quick to highlight how it is someone how only going on other places. Funny seeing as the US is benefiting from it to such a degree.
As to your ancedontal idea of the prison system, they work. It is rare at all that they get free meals, boarding, etc. Many work in the library, kitchen, highway clean up, cleaning in the prison, etc. I have a relative who works kitchen duty and his earnings go toward boarding and hygienic needs.
LikeLike
I did read it that is why I posted it…
To clarify my former comment.
LikeLike
I work 6-7 days a week and all my earnings go to life support and taxes. Even lived in a hammock tent for 5 months , after i was diagnosed with melanoma, never asked anyone for anything.
Never once thought I was owed anything not that I did not have to earn.
I now have a small business remodeling houses and freelance photography.
My son was in the system I know all about it.. but he was smarter than me..
Now he is buried from a drug overdose.
I blame no one but his poor choices.
LikeLike
@ Wil Jones
“My son was in the system I know all about it.. but he was smarter than me.. Now he is buried from a drug overdose. I blame no one but his poor choices.”
Drug addiction is bigger than individual choices or individual blame. There is an entire system of people and organizations who profit from drug use, both legal and illegal in this country. That was true during the Crack Cocaine epidemic that devastated Black communities in the 1980’s and it is true of the meth/opioid/heroin triple epidemics that are ravaging working class White communities today.
LikeLiked by 2 people
@Will
Throwing out a link with no explanation after making a false statement is not clarifying in my book. It is deceit. If anything you threw out the link to appear more credible in your statement. Yet it does not agree with what you said.
LikeLike
http://www.cincinnati.com/story/opinion/contributors/2015/09/22/experts-ohio-among-worst-sex-trafficking/72613268/
I would say can’t happen here, right? But it already did.
You cannot blame a child forced into prostitution, particularly if they are sent to another country.
LikeLike
Wow .. I was not being decieptful..
I had read that months ago and posted from memory.
When someone questioned the statistics
I found the original post and attached it to the thread in question knowing the facts were there..
People do make mistakes
I corrected mine
As a reader was able to discern..
LikeLike
http://www.civil-war.net/pages/1860_census.html
LikeLike
@Will
Uh huh….Please enlighten me on where you made the correction because all I see is long post but not really addressing it.
You stated “28 percent of blacks were slave owners in America” your source clearly stated the 28 percent was for New Orleans only. Resw properly corrected you. I have yet to see you admit the mistake.
LikeLike
@ Wil Jones
“I work 6-7 days a week and all my earnings go to life support and taxes.”
What is your point? Do you believe you are somehow different than anyone else here in that respect?
LikeLike
@ Will Jones“In the state I volunteered in for ten years
To work outside the facility was voluntary. An account was allotted to the men for commissary or savings also some of their sentence could be reduced. Violent offenders were not permitted.
All men had a roof, bed and meals no work was required”
So you want to say that the Florida penal system allowed inmate to sit in their bunks if they chose to, that all work details were voluntary and the prisoner who worked were “properly compensated” for their work?
There were no chain gangs or other forced labor in Florida. Right!
LikeLike
It is in the posted link
I provided that is where the information was found which was used to correct me.
Had I not posted the link the information would not have been available.
I posted it with the intention of providing correct information
LikeLike
My point is if people who break the law provide a bit of comfort for themselves in prison by doing work that is reality for most everyone.
LikeLike
@Will
“Had I not posted the link the information would not have been available.”–It would have been available as someone would have simply found it and posted it to refute you, but Resw had already corrected you prior to you posting the link. Yet instead of saying I stand corrected or my mistake, you post a link. Don’t add up.
LikeLike
Why would I post a link correcting my comment and supporting the one correcting me unless I was actually trying to be fair?
And you are correct I should have supported the post with an explanation.
I was at work grouting floor tiles
Ever try texting and grouting at the same time… Of course no one could have known that but me…
I am an old guy, over 60…
My bad…
I am sorry…
LikeLike
If you are speaking of the person who suggested I should read my links .. that person posted that after I put the link on the thread..
I posted it after someone suggested my numbers were skewed and did not add up.. that’s when I went back found the link and put it up.. after that came the suggestion I read my material.. Which clearly was a response to the link…
In any event I will be more clear in the future .
LikeLike
@Will Jones
It is quite common for people to post links they think support them when in reality it does not. It usually doesn’t dawn on them that it doesn’t until someone pointsees it out to them. Then they just change the subject. But whatever.
LikeLike
I can assure you that was not the case.
I posted this same post on Facebook over a month ago I knew what was in it I simply forgot the details and was more than happy to put the correct order of facts for all to read.
LikeLike
What’s hilarious to me is that you have white people who think they’re superior to black people and everybody else. They want to live in an all white “utopia.” But what they FAIL to realize is that they didn’t get along with each other when they were living in Europe either. White people LITERALLY had nothing but back-to-back wars when they lived amongst each other at that time. They weren’t even civilized, until the Moorsish people came along and civilized them. They were also selling other white people into slavery. Now how’s that for: you sold your own people into slavery? They need to stop telling people to get out of a country that they stole, re-enacting the Civil War, worshiping confederate statues/monuments, and accept the fact that they the war lost and move on. If everybody else needs to “go back” to where they came from, then they need to “go back” to Europe.
LikeLike
@ A1218
Exactly! If White people do not like it in North America because it is not White enough, they need to go back to Europe where they came from. It is the Whitest place on earth.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Allen Shaw @Abagond If white people want to go back to Europe and to the “Whitest place on earth” they better do it quickly, the people from the Middle East are rushing in and you know what happens when people get together.
LikeLike
@ Allen Shaw
People from the Middle East proclaim loudly to anyone who will listen that they are White, too. If true, that thing that “happens when people get together” shouldn’t make much of a difference to the Whitest place on earth”..
LikeLike
@ Allen Shaw
Jesus was White so I do not see what the big deal is.
LikeLike
Anyone who looks at a brown person and calls them white is OK in my book. Have you looked at the people closely or just those that appear to be light skinned. As far as Jesus is concerned I personally believe he was a brown skinned nappy haired Jew. But since they did not bother to describe him as far as I know you can take the German Santa Clause and the white Jesus.
The religion is based on the soul, so the body has little meaning. Thus an image of GOD. I do not believe you have seen anybody walking around up there.
I get accused of changing the subject so what is the subject. This comment is at the end of one of your many thoughts; however I responded to another empty new something or another.
Hold your breath as the races mix and in this nation the people who call themselves Black will separate themselves from the others. And your black sisters and brothers will be mixing with the white sisters and brothers and then who will know who is who?
LikeLike
@ Allen Shaw
Just to be clear, my comment about Jesus was kind of sarcastic: many who do not want brown people from the Middle East coming to their country think Jesus was White.
LikeLike
Hurray! I do not experience much sarcasm to my benefit.
I lived in England and Germany for a total of 6 years and found the acceptance of people who are different was the same as in this nation. I have had a large support group of whites in my life and do not believe in making statements about groups of people.
My son-in-law tells me after living in San Antonio, TX and the small communities around that city that “there are good white people and there are good black people and there are bad white people and there are bad black people”.
I like that thought! I hope you live to see the day that the largest group of people living in this nation are mixed. (People of color)
I read that the average wage today is about $23.00 per hour. How did that figure get calculated when some people are only making 7 and 8 dollars an hour.
It would be nice if you put a spell and grammer check on your system.
LikeLike
Why do whites have to be constantly reminded how evil some whites were hundreds of years ago? No one is disputing the fact. We don’t hold all Germans accountable for the holocaust, we don’t hold all Arabs accountable for the Barbary pirates. The slave trade existed and was perpetrated by whites, blacks and Arabs but no race is accountable as that’s assigning guilt by race. We aren’t responsible for the past, we are responsible as individuals for our own actions. Whites are the only ones to actively destroy slavery, Arabs still own slaves and so do blacks in certain parts of the world, if we are going to get all judgey, let’s go after Arab culture were slavery is widespread and still practiced today!
LikeLike
@Lewis It would be nice if the word slavery was the only bad word when describing the mistreatment of people.
Slavery is a word that people in the US are using when referring to the period 1621 to 1865, Jim Crow is another word which may have been worse than slavery!
All over the world people are misused under the different names that are given. Capitalism creates a bottom employee who is almost a slave.
I see no reason to relieve “white people” of any of the problems of the world because problems are an equal opportunity “thingie”!
Maybe you should start by defining the word “white”! It has so many different meanings it seems to be a wasted description without qualifications.
Whites were not the only people that fought in the Civil War and as many people were for slavery as against it. The truth is slavery was an out of date method of the use of labor and it would have died on its own because of the cost associated with it after the transportation of people to be used as slaves was banned in 1808.
If you studied your history, you would find that Abraham Lincoln was afraid to talk about freeing the slaves because he was afraid the northern people would have stopped supporting the war effort if they thought they were fighting to free the slaves.
Please notice he did not free the slaves in the states fighting for the union. Only the Confederate States.
LikeLike
@Lewis asked: “Why do whites have to be constantly reminded how evil some whites were hundreds of years ago? No one is disputing the fact.”
Well Lewis, over the centuries, Amerika has proven to us again and again that she has a never ending proclivity to either whitewash are simply cover-up history, particularly when it has to do with slavery.
Therefore, we as USDOS or ADOS must never allow white Amerikans to bury or tear out this page of seminal world history. No matter how evil or shameful this act was. It is a portion of our collective struggles that continues even to today, although its gradient has been lessened, nonetheless, it will never be put to rest simply because as you put it, “No one is disputing the fact.”
“The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history.” ― George Orwell
https://www.theroot.com/b-o-b-s-apparent-belief-that-slave-ships-never-existed-1820079081
George Orwell’s quote was brought back to life up close and personal when in 2017 when Rapper B.o.B. said this: “They say slavery lasted 400 yrs… America is only 250 yrs old… You ever seen a slave ship ? They can find a billion year old dinosaur bone but can’t find any slave ships.”
Now see , … this is why we must not forget about slavery.
LikeLiked by 2 people
@Lewis
“Whites are the only ones to actively destroy slavery”–False.
LikeLike
@blakksage. Was there some kind of joke. USA is 527 since Columbus arrived on the islands. I know there is some meaning; but, I missed it!
Jamestown was established by the Virginia Company of London as “James Fort” on May 4, 1607 O.S.;(May 14, 1607 N.S.) 412 years ago.
Ponce de León set sail from Puerto Rico in March of 1513 to explore the areas north of the island. 506 years
First European contact (1542)
The first European to explore the California coast was Juan Rodríguez Cabrillo (Portuguese: João Rodrigues Cabrilho), working for Spain. He died in southern California in 1543. 476 years (Used Native Americans as laborer)
When discussing this matter, think of the millions of Native Americans who died from the expansion of Europeans.
I do not believe there is anyway to forget slavery in the USA. It is written in all of the books. Perhaps reading would be a skill more people should pick up. It (slavery) is discussed in the Constitution Convention and most states history has it included.
Shipment of slaves to the US was banned by discussion in the Constitution Convention beginning 1808. Slavery was doomed as a practical labor practice once new slaves were banned. It was just a matter of time before cost would prevent the successful use of slaves.
The majority of white people in the US did not own slaves and if they lived in the north they were victimize by not being competitive with the free labor of the south.
The major immigration of Europeans began in late 1800 after slavery was no longer in existence, so any information the new arrivals might have received would have been JIM CROW!
(I consider Jim Crow to be far more deadly then slavery)
The wealth of this nation was based on slavery, the removal of the Native Americans, the giving of land to European immigrants. and JIM CROW!
All history books describe our economic progression.
Today we need to encourage all to learn to read with understanding!
No matter what is read, history should be a part of the package!
LikeLike
@ Allen Shaw
“Was there some kind of joke. USA is 527 since Columbus arrived on the islands. I know there is some meaning; but, I missed it!”
I think the point is that Rapper B.o.B. is a conspiracy theorist who believes slavery is a hoax. Part of B.o.B’s argument is that slavery could not have possibly lasted for 400 years when America is only 250 years old. Of course, what he is missing is that slavery existed in the colonies well before the founding of the United States. If you read the article Blakksage linked to, you will see that Rapper B.o.B. also believes the earth is flat and other half-baked things.
It really points out how important it is to keep talking about slavery and the truth of what happened. Otherwise it is all too easy for people to forget, or to deny, or to twist the truth.
LikeLike
@Lewis:
Put it to music and play it on the violin!
LikeLiked by 2 people
“if we are going to get all judgey, let’s go after Arab culture were slavery is widespread and still practiced today! – Lewis
Perhaps you have a misunderstanding between the words “judgey” or judge and excoriate. There are many who criticize the demonic behavior of whites during slavery. Maybe this is so because whites as a group, went far beyond us being merely servants.
As a group, you weren’t supposed to split the families; decapitate us; lynch us; throw our babies to the crocodiles; sleep with the wife of the slaves; you wasn’t supposed to rape men, women and children; you weren’t supposed to castrate the men for fear of white women having the urge to sleep with them and you darn sure wasn’t supposed to take the Bible away from us.
In sum, and as a group you, “furthered or forward the affliction” as it is stated in Zechariah 1:15 “And I am very sore displeased with the heathen (the white race and the Arabs) that are at ease: for I was but a little displeased, and they helped forward the affliction.”
I am in no way saying that the Arabs do not deserve criticism. Of course they do. The enslavement of the Children of Israel by them was primarily sexual in nature.
PS: Here, the utilization of the word YOU is interchangeable with WHITE PEOPLE in general.
LikeLike
@Blakksage
“In sum, and as a group you, “furthered or forward the affliction” as it is stated in Zechariah 1:15 “And I am very sore displeased with the heathen (the white race and the Arabs) that are at ease: for I was but a little displeased, and they helped forward the affliction.”: PS:Here, the utilization of the word YOU is interchangeable with WHITE PEOPLE in general.”
What a load of nonsense, your clearly race baiting as hard as you can and your reference to the bible is grossly incoherent, your line of reasoning is why 99% of cults exist, twist words as it suits them
” George Orwell’s quote was brought back to life up close and personal when in 2017 when Rapper B.o.B. said this: They say slavery lasted 400 yrs… America is only 250 yrs old… You ever seen a slave ship ? They can find a billion year old dinosaur bone but can’t find any slave ships.”
What??? How about the Romans powering their entire sea fleet with slaves who they just threw overboard when overexerted? Your selectively blind version of history is astounding
Race is the smallest part of a person’s evil character and nature, why you all are so obsessed with race is symptomatic of your own racial discrimination and inability to accept your shitty existence caused by your own actions. Life is hard and has sucked for certain races, ages, genders, religions but none of these can be dug up to try and make people feel guilty. If a man or women commits evil, I see them as an evil person, not as a white/black/man/women/youth/irreligious/religious/etc or any other descriptor. We are not to be judged by our biology, not by our race or ethnic identities. These things are circumstantial factors but not primary causes
LikeLike
@ Lewis
“why you all are so obsessed with race is symptomatic of your own racial discrimination and inability to accept your shitty existence caused by your own actions.”
Why do you assume the black people who frequent this blog are living a shitty existence?
“Life is hard and has sucked for certain races, ages, genders, religions but none of these can be dug up to try and make people feel guilty.”
If discussion about U.S. slavery makes you feel guilty, that’s on you. The discussion isn’t intended to make you feel guilty for things you didn’t do. You need to ask yourself why you feel guilty (or feel like you’re supposed to feel guilty).
But the discussion needs to take place as long as the repercussions from that race-based slavery still impact our society and our institutions.
LikeLike
@ Solitaire
“But the discussion needs to take place as long as the repercussions from that race-based slavery still impact our society and our institutions”
What institutions? No one is oppressing anyone in western countries. As an Australian, we have our own indigenous population that weren’t treated as well as they should have been up until the 60’s. That being said, their isn’t any discriminatory legislation now, we actually give them a livible wage FOR LIFE and every dam opportunity and scholarships available yet their 2% of the population make up a vast majority of most crime statistics. It’s not the “white man’s” fault anymore, the culture has not adapted and they are suffering from there own self imposed afflictions, racism is not a determining factor.
It’s about time we had a discussion on the effect of black culture and how to shape the culture into something more healthy and less pitiful. I have sympathy for people in hard times but little sympathy for lazy degenerates who blame others for their own problems, white or black!
As I see it, the US has the same problem, if people stopped blaming others for their own problems and took responsibility for their own lives, who cares what happened to your grandparents, make good decisions now and pick yourself up out of the ditch. Don’t blame someone because of their skin colour and the sins of a long dead minority of a generation
LikeLike
What the hell do you know black people and their culture What about weird ass white people culture , which encourages them to blame immigrants, shoot up drugs and masturbate to incest porn and sit on their ass living on welf-, oops, I mean massive bond loans from the Chinese to fund their deficits? Black people have a pitiful culture? OK go back to Down Under and don’t come up here again.
Don’t feed the trolls. You have better things to do with your life.
LikeLiked by 3 people
@Lewis
“What institutions? No one is oppressing anyone in western countries”–False again.
“It’s not the “white man’s” fault anymore”–It is when you created a system that is still in place today.
“the culture has not adapted and they are suffering from there own self imposed afflictions, racism is not a determining factor.”–Prime example of the mindset that created that system that indicates it is very much at play today.
“It’s about time we had a discussion on the effect of black culture and how to shape the culture into something more healthy and less pitiful.”—Let us discuss black culture because I have a feeling you don’t know what it is and how much white culture stole from them and other minority cultures.
LikeLike
@Lewis:
I reiterate, put it to music and play it on the violin.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I swear to Jesus, its like every new one thinks they’re the first person to condescend black people with the same condescending lines.
LikeLike
“Because part of their sense of self worth is built on being white and how whites are better than everyone else, particularly blacks.” -for all the complainers of white racist commentators known as trolls.
BTW hate satanforce pic of trump
interesting how he’s a narcissist who has a lot of support,what do they call people who like to give attention to white racist narcissism.
LikeLike
@ Lewis
“What institutions? No one is oppressing anyone in western countries. As an Australian, we have our own indigenous population that weren’t treated as well as they should have been up until the 60’s. That being said, their [sic] isn’t any discriminatory legislation now”
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theage.com.au/national/victoria/aborigines-face-systemic-racial-discrimination-report-20151104-gkqlii.html
https://www.universityworldnews.com/post-mobile.php?story=20181010182528471
LikeLiked by 2 people
@ Lewis
“we actually give them a livible [sic] wage FOR LIFE and every dam [sic] opportunity and scholarships”
Have you given them their land back? All of it?
“It’s not the “white man’s” fault anymore, the culture has not adapted”
What is it they haven’t adapted to? Oh, that’s right, a foreign and alien culture violently imposed upon them against their will.
“who cares what happened to your grandparents, make good decisions now and pick yourself up out of the ditch.”
Again, you are assuming that the writer of the post is in the ditch, making bad decisions, living a miserable life. Why would you assume that?
Do you not realize that racism negatively affects middle-class professional blacks in the U.S.?
What does it say about you and your conception of African Americans that you immediately assume those writing about racism are “lazy degenerates who blame others for their own problems”?
LikeLiked by 2 people
This article seems to have been addressed to me.
I have no comment about Australian activities. For several hundred years the island was used to house individuals who had committed crimes in England and were sent to the island for punishment.
That may have something to do with the problem they are having.
Racism is a problem everywhere! It is harder to see an ethnic or religious individual or nationalist; however, it is easy to determine race when evaluating race by color.
Keep pushing with factual comments; but do not expect miracles!
LikeLike
@ satanforce
“Don’t feed the trolls. You have better things to do with your life.”
@ Allen Shaw
“Keep pushing with factual comments; but do not expect miracles!”
Understood, but my mindset is that it’s for the lurkers.
LikeLike
@ Allen Shaw
“the island was used to house individuals who had committed crimes in England and were sent to the island for punishment.
“That may have something to do with the problem they are having.”
LOL!!!!
LikeLike
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_conflicts_spanning_multiple_wars
Jamestown 1619
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_colonial_United_States
End of slavery 1865 296 years of slavery in the US.
When was the first sub Saharan African “country” named? Mainly there were many tribes and many languages. The religion was Muslim which had been introduced by traders from the Middle East.
The facts are mankind has been at war with itself everywhere. Prisoner in Africa have been traded, killed, and tortured plus they have been enslaved in Africa.
Slavery is cruel; but possible better than death. No one has documented how slaves were treated in Africa. The only stories we have are the Jewish stories of slavery in Egypt. (Not sub Saharan Africa) It probably was not possible to include such information in the stories which were told of the past. African history is new because of such failure. I understand there was history at Timbuktu; but, what did it contain and is it still safe.
Has anyone studied the history of slavery of sub Saharan’s in the Middle East, China, India and other places .
Research the trip across the desert, the castration of men to create servants for the women. Long before slavery to the Americas.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade (This will shock you, if you read it and follow some of it references (long read)
The word civilization is a tricky word and can mean whatever the writer means.
If no history is available does that mean there was no civilization?
LikeLike
“Have you given them their land back? All of it?”
Good point, we should, but should that tribe then give the land back to the previous tribe whom they conquered? what about the tribe that conquered the other tribe that conquered the other tribe? how far should we go back?
“Again, you are assuming that the writer of the post is in the ditch, making bad decisions, living a miserable life. Why would you assume that?”
it was addressed to you?
I like your reference to a Fairfax media article. I wouldn’t believe jack Charles for a second. He would win that lawsuit easily! The law is 100% on his side but he chooses to ignore it and appeals to Fairfax media (the CNN of Australia, but way worse). I don’t trust any media outlets or reports done by alt-left organisations who reference random quotes and insults. I’ve been insulted many times, often on the basis of my looks or religion, i haven’t felt the need to call the police and live of meth!
LikeLike
@ Lewis
“Good point, we should, but should that tribe then give the land back to the previous tribe whom they conquered? what about the tribe that conquered the other tribe that conquered the other tribe? how far should we go back?”
You go back to the historical point of contact. If any tribes have land disputes that predate European contact, it is an entirely different matter and should be handled by them.
“it was addressed to you?”
Interesting. What do you think you know about me? Or was that just a lame gratuitous insult?
“I like your reference to a Fairfax media article…. I don’t trust any media outlets or reports done by alt-left organisations who reference random quotes and insults.”
Excellent way to simply discount any reporting that contradicts your opinions without giving it serious examination or providing a facts-based rebuttal.
LikeLiked by 1 person
lol. (Googles “Slavery in Medieval sub-Saharan Africa”)
Travels in the Interior of Africa, Mungo Park, Travels in the Interior of Africa v. II, Chapter XXII – War and Slavery
From Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Africa
lolwut?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kingdoms_in_pre-colonial_Africa
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_empires
It is obvious to anyone that the white race, including his retarded cousin – the Arab – are inherently and fundamentally evil. It just is. Every race of man has done evil. They also admit these evils up front, without childish justifications or pretensions to a higher morality. But not the white man. And this is what makes him uniquely evil.
Whenever he is confronted with his evil, he does not admit to it. No, he always prevaricates, whines, and makes excuses like a man-child stuck in some narcissistic phase of development. “I wasn’t on Pornhub, I swear! Those pop-ups are just because the computer got hacked!” “IP-Logging? What’s that? Oh, you’re getting upset with me because I’m 10 years old and watching sex? Well, you and Mom have sex all the time! That makes you even worse than me! ” Except white man uses other peoples slavery in order to try to justify his far more evil version.
The sick bastard.
What makes it even more ironic s that he uses the actions of the same people he claims to be superior to as a yardstick. Pathetic.
LikeLiked by 2 people
LOLZ! All joking aside, you are on to something!
LikeLike
@ satanforce I could spend the next and last years of my life reading article written by individuals who describe slavery in the late period of 1500 forward and how it is today.
I offer no defense for slavery, i do not see any difference between the slaves that Africans used and others. You and others may decide that whites that owned slaves were more cruel; yet there are stories of slaves rising to become leaders. We today cannot get correct stories of slavery in the south of this nation. While excusing black slave owners (they only bought their family members?) we blame white owners.
We know with no doubt that slavery was as bad as it can get; yet, we somehow refuse to recognize that serfs and peasants were mistreted during the same time period. Millions of people have been starved to death, slaughtered and controlled.by brutal force all over the world.
Yes, if one studies slavery in the (Mediterraneans) and in the Americas, US slaves were treated kindly compared to the islands and Central and South America (study the death rates) an numbers of slaves transported to that area.
One of the most interesting comments I have read is how the slaves lived in filthy homes; yet, my reading says that slaves were allowed to have gardens and families were living as family units and I assume (A– U ME) were capable of cleaning the area they lived in.
I do not disagree with anyone when they write about time that no one was recording. I accept the fact that some people have knowledge that I do not have.
I invite you to find the history of the USA Air Corp and USAF “Air Ammunition Squadrons” that existed from 1946 to 1949. This may give you a hint as to how difficult it is to find information about the past. I have searched and am waiting for your and others history lesson.
LikeLike
@ satanforce: Mongo Park was an explorer in the 1800’s. The history I referred to was from 600 to the time the first “white” person entered Africa. In other words those brown people of the Middle East you call white. During the early period there may be a question if the Romans were “white” since they had quite a bit of conflict with the “barbarians” of the north. People can call themselves anything they choose.
Your comment:
“It is obvious to anyone that the white race, including his retarded cousin – the Arab –”
The current white nationalist is an individual from northern Europe, west of the Ural. We do not even know if a person from Asia (East of the Ural mountain Range) is white! Who can make the call? It took a long time for southern Europeans to be declared white.
The more I read about the people of the Middle East traveling into and around the African Interior/exterior up the Niger and other rivers the more i believe that from as early as the beginning of the first century exploration into Africa was taking place.
What makes a person White?
LikeLike
@Allen Shaw
“What makes a person White?”
– Somewhat off-topic for this thread, but you may appreciate this read:
LikeLike
@Open Minded Observer: I have this book in my personal book library. It was recommended by Abagond.
LikeLiked by 1 person
is it judgy or judgie? judgey? be mindful!
LikeLike
(Strokes chin intellectually……)
It is obvious to anyone with of even mediocre intellect that the “White” aka the Caucasoid, is that subspecies of man that, through his genotype – lives to cause war, death, pestilence, famine, and NASCAR.
A
LikeLiked by 4 people
After being exiled from the African continent, he wandered to his domain, west of the Ural Mountains, and the border of the Nile River. His physical features have perfectly adapted to meet the environmental conditions of these cold and desolate regions.
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/gameofthrones/images/1/1f/Night_King_BTW.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20171013162809
The natural state of the white man.
His jawbone is elongated, with powerful jawbones to tear through the raw human meat he was forced to eat during the cold times. His skin de-melanated to camouflage himself better in the snow. His hindbrain is enlarged, but his amygdala is shrunken – pure intellect, no emotion. That is why he cannot feel empathy for other races.
It is chiefly these features, that define the subspecies of man – Homo Sapiens Caucasiodius.
LikeLiked by 2 people
It’s like you’re seeing right into my soul.
LikeLike
Very interesting comments about a white person. Perhaps they are all correct! But which nations are we speaking about.
Saying west of the Ural and the border of the Nile.The Ural is in Europe and the Nile is in Africa. Meaningless crap. The Ural separates Europe from Asia. The Nile begins near the equator and runs north running thru African nations like Sudan and Egypt
“The Blue Nile, however, is the source of most of the water and silt. The White Nile is longer and rises in the Great Lakes region of central Africa, with the most distant source still undetermined but located in either Rwanda or Burundi. It flows north through Tanzania, Lake Victoria, Uganda and South Sudan.”
The question is who designated who a white person is. I have always considered a white person as being Northern European and slowly over time taking over the southern portions of Europe by the normal sexual activities that take place. Very few people from southern Europe were originally allowed into the US. Places like Turkey and Greece were just not a part of the original migration from England, France Belgium, Holland and Germany, There is quite a bit of conversation about the background about the Irish.
The Mediterranean Sea enters into the Atlantic Ocean which has allowed the movement of people north and south all around Africa. Each river passed allowed people to explore and breed. How many rivers enter Africa? How many thousands of years have people been traveling around Africa? How many people from the Far East crossed the Indian Ocean to deal with Africans? How many millions of Africans were transported across the Sahara Desert to be slaves and then freed? Surely the Niger has been explored by those people from the Middle East who I call Arabian and other call white. The Congo!
http://www.softschools.com/facts/rivers/congo_river_facts/2115/
When referring to “white” people as though they are a majority implies an untruth and an inclusion of other groups that cannot be “White” if the term white were to be correctly defined! What most people consider to be white as I have stated are Northern Europeans and those Southern Europeans who have been brain washed into believing they are also white. No person living along the Mediterranean Sea can be totally white! That includes Italy, Spain, Greece and any other nation that touches the area. Do not forget southern France.
The current view as I read these comments is the white man is every where except the Far East and sub Saharan Africa.
Could someone else say what the white man is and not how the white man acts?
What are the characteristics that separate them from blacks except skin color.
Where does he come from. Were they white when they left Africa on the many difference time over the past 2,000.000 years ago or more. I agree the north was a bad place to be during the ice age and those that survived, if any did, would have been tough as nails. I believe they did probably eat each other.
I am positive no black people did any such thing!
“When did humans first migrate out of Africa? 2 million years ago
Early human migrations are the earliest migrations and expansions of archaic and modern humans across continents beginning 2 million years ago with the out of Africa migration of Homo erectus.”
It is time for blacks and whites to stop “B S ing’ each other. There is nothing different between them except time distance and conditions of living.
The condition of hate is equal!
LikeLike
@Allen Shaw
“…if the term white were to be correctly defined”
LOL. I define it as an unscientific means of categorizing humans based on the prevailing opinion of the people in their immediate vicinity.
Your definition would seem to indicate there is a genetic/ancestral basis for race as if we aren’t all decedent from the same origins.
Meanwhile, satanforce seems to be further implying that evilness and mental handicaps are inherited traits tied to skin color? ( “the white race, including his retarded cousin – the Arab – are inherently and fundamentally evil.” ) Or not… because it seems that skin tone isn’t even a required part of the definition of race anymore… except for the khaki-pants-white-t-shirt gang… those guys seem pretty strict about excluding their tanner cousins. But maybe that’s just based on religion.
As for the main topic of the thread: Regardless of how you define race, people have sold and owned other human beings throughout human history… right up through today. People you may call White have bought and sold other White people just as people you might call Black have bought and sold other Black people. In the United States, people’s willingness to believe in the concept of race was perhaps the most prevalent means of justifying the inhumanity of slavery. The impact of which also lives on to this day. Trying to diminish that impact or excuse the practice entirely by pointing out who originated the sale does not magically grant absolution to those creating the market with their purchases nor does it absolve those that willingly chose the convenience, profit and privilege gained from the suffering of others.
TL/DR: I may believe that race is a made up concept invented to oppress people, but racism is very real and I despise it with every inherently evil white bone in my body.
LikeLike
Meanwhile, satanforce seems to be further implying that evilness and mental handicaps are inherited traits tied to skin color?
White supremacy which permeates society is what he is actually calling out with a bit of comedy thrown in. White supremacy is absurd whether or not you consciously or unconsciously subscribe to its’ tenets.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@Herneith
Fair enough… it can be tough to see the “tongue-n-cheek” online.
LikeLike
Don’t worry. I’m black. I can’t be racist.
Right. That is the correct view. So we’re looking at the green parts here as their current hive.
Drop the bomb on the greens. Kill them all. Exterminate all the brutes. The details of the operation will be handled by Obergruppenfuhrer Herneith.
What makes the Caucasian uniquely evil on the face of the earth for all eternity is his inability to be truthful. His enlarged hindbrain allows him to access all kinds of objective scientific truth, but his shrunken amygdala renders him a lying sociopath, with little to no internal subjectivity. The Romans did not hide their cruelty – they exalted it. The Mohammedans did not hide their cruelty – they exalted, embraced and wrote it into their Holy Book.
But the white man…… No. Whether it is Thomas Jefferson or Jonathan Edwards, they have no problem enslaving people while preaching for the freedom of all humanity themselves. His innovation is creating a form of slavery that put the slave in bondage for perpetuity, based on skin colour, as well as his offspring. Thus we have the first rule of dealing with white people –
White people always lie.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@Open Minded Observer
“Your definition would seem to indicate there is a genetic/ancestral basis for race as if we aren’t all decedent from the same origins.”
You have misinterpreted my comments. I referred to the many different groups of individuals who have left Africa over the past 2 million years and over time have change due to conditions. I have not implied they were from a different source. Until such time as scientist find other bones that are older then the bones in East Central Africa Africa remains the beginning of mankind in its current form. I am not able to discuss the specific species, it is beyond my knowledge
My question was: “Where does he come from. Were they white when they left Africa on the many difference time over the past 2,000.000 years ago or more.”
LikeLike
@satanforce
Don’t worry. I’m black. I can’t be racist.
Wasn’t worried. Knew or assumed that from prior posts. Agreed.
Perhaps the secret to my inherent evilness lies in the relationship between serotonin production and melanocyte stimulation and not my tiny amygdala. But, I might be pulling that out of my giant hindbrain.
@Allen Shaw
As we are not different species, you’re not alone in being unable to discuss humans in that context. I cannot help you with which came first, pale people or their migration, but I suspect migration occurred first followed by the evolution of a social culture that showed preference for paler tones. Eventually growing to the concept of race and the culture of White supremacy we see now.
LikeLiked by 1 person
But, I might be pulling that out of my giant hindbrain.
Or your anus.
LikeLiked by 2 people
I have no doubt about what I think! The problem today is how different individuals describe other people as a whole instead as individuals.
People are equally good, bad and ugly!
This conversation is on this site thus many comments are anti white. Perhaps many of those commenting have a very small experience with many other individuals of other races, religion, ethnic, nationalities or other differences.
The advancement of mankind in the past 80 years has been massive; yet, not any of the advancement is recognized in these conversations.
The fact that we are discussing these matters and not lynchings which were being discussed when I was a young man shows progress. There are so many black leaders of major businesses today that we hardly ever refer to a promotion as “the first”!
Condition over 2 million years have change people.
Concentration of winners and not including looser in the conversation eliminate billions of unprepared helpless whites! Not including black progress, even in the black press, downplays black progress.
Blacks who live a decent life and some who are promoted to high levels of responsibility are not included in any conversation, just very famous chosen black are highlighted. Religious leader first and foremost.
If this site is a site to just complain about how the most successful blacks are not as successful as the most successful white there may be a story.
The concentration of blacks in the deep south in various states where none of them have much more then a third of the population concentrates our strength in a manner which makes blacks weak.(DC over 50% black is not a state) Even as blacks provide a few strong voices to the mix many voices are loss because there is no way for the person to be heard.
No matter how determine a third of the population is the vote count only allow individual that some white voters agree should be heard. If all of the blacks voted for a person 66% white could block the person! Therefore blacks need at least 18% white vote to win.
Stop calling white people names if you want their help! After the whites help a black get elected to office do not expect that black person to turn their back to white demands.
Stop calling people like President Obama failure, he was elected by the white vote.
Yes I know “What in the world does this conversation have to do with the subject matter”.
Any subject other then what Tribal leaders did in the past should be welcome. ‘The past is the past and cannot be undone”!
Slavery is as old as recorded history and probably occurred before history was recorded! No living person can prove that one persons slavery was harder or easier than another. Someone had to sell to someone sometime!
“don t judge a man until you’ve walked a mile in his shoes”!
Finally, when you study the past you will find that a very small percent of the population had anything to do with slavery. Those that sold, those that transported and sold and those who had money to buy!
LikeLike
@Allen Shaw
In response to your origins of the White man quest… have you considered that whiteness may just be whole-body vitiligo?
@Herneith
Not 100% out of my anus though… A precursor to serotonin has been separately shown to increase melanin dispersion. Inhibiting it has shown the opposites as well. Obviously, inhibiting melanin dispersion has been shown to yield lighter skin, and slightly less-obviously, inhibiting serotonin production has been shown to decrease empathy and alter reactions and judgement about what is “fair” in addition to leading to more aggressive reaction to “others” introduced into a home environment. That’s a really superficial summary of a ton of different studies, in humans, mice, rats, newts and eels, but the “scientific” potential to discover treatment strategies for people suffering from pale skin and a co-morbid lack of judgement and empathy is intriguing.
There’s at least one study showing significant correlation between vitiligo and MDD (major depressive disorder)….
Alright, that’s about as far as I can stretch that… but I thought you might get a kick out of a potential cure for whiteness.
LikeLike
I am not that smart. I am sure you have a better understanding about such things. I am mixed blood and I do not hate part of me. I guess you are pure black so you do not have any of that bad stuff
LikeLike
Me?!? No, I’m 50% mix from like England, Ireland, Scottland areas and 50% Portuguese… Makes me White by society’s definition. There are certainly things about me I don’t love and am working to change, but I don’t hate any part of me based on ancestry and neither should you!
That’s kinda the point… it’s not the genes, it’s the culture… and if it is the genes, science will likely someday narrow it down to a single gene or two that control the production of a single hormone which may be lacking in direct proportion to paleness of skin-tone. That isn’t a scientific definition of a “race” any more than tall and short people could scientifically be races. We made up races as part of our culture and I personally feel it’s possible to dislike a part of our ancestral culture without internalizing it. I can accept that American culture still has strong belief in race, racial differences and that White American culture still believes itself superior to others. That isn’t me… I’d like to see that change and I try to work towards that. I don’t hate myself for that, I actually like that part of me.
Also, you mentioned up-thread that there’s been positive changes over the years. I don’t disagree, but at the same time, if you re-read speeches by MLK or read Baldwin, Malcolm X, Huey P Newton, etc.. Their words could just as easily apply to today. That’s just in reference to your “past 80 years” timeline. You can go back further to read Frederick Douglass and others from his time and it’s the same… The more things change, the more they remain the same because the undercurrent remains the same. The context of the conversation has changed, as you pointed out, we’re discussing indiscriminate police killings instead of lynchings, mass incarceration, voter disenfranchisement and wealth gaps instead of Jim Crow laws, but it’s all fruit of the same tree.
P.S. You keep playing the “Aw shucks, I’m not that smart” character, but here you are posting thoughtful arguments to a blog on the internet…. I may disagree with a lot of what you post, but I do not consider you un-smart (I know, that’s not a word, but it seemed to fit so I went with it)
LikeLike
Until some time in the 1800 race was not a thing! The source of power was based on the power people had over each other. Some dumb ass in Germany tried to assure the Germans they were superior.
Since the history of slavery goes back to the beginning I do not think it was about color as much as who was helpless to defend themselves.
Modern interpretation now perceive that slavery was a black thing. In the America’s it was! The reason was the source of quality workers was Africa. Native Americans died out too fast. There were an insignificant number of people like the Irish. It was just plane ideal to go to Africa for a cheap source of labor. Also there was a natural flow of wind and water that was ideal. The circular route!
Today looking back the new thinking is they were slaves because they were black, not that it was financially expedient.
Back to race as some would define people with different colors. I have failed twice to say it was nothing but the conditions of living where they lived over the 2 million years that have create the current condition of people. That includes both color and mental capability. No matter how many people are intelligent in any one group each has probably a similar group of individual that fit into any category.
if you can not read you cannot demonstrate intelligence in a written test. An extremely intellectually capable person would die under conditions that another would survive.
These conversations are conducted by ignoring what other say, by expressions of bias opinions as thought they are factual and are more entertainment then any search for truth.
There is practically no true history of slavery in the US, any more than there is history of African history before written history was introduced. China calls their early history Myth because it was not written. Other then picture drawn on the walls of caves the history of Europe is myth spoken as though it is the truth. When anyone wrote about slavery they expressed their opinion or how they say what they saw.
I have a collection of history of slave trading, selling, and bad treatment; however none of it states all slaves were treated equal. At one time I had an accounting of the books that were written by the Abolitionist that were untrue, that today are consider to be absolutely historical facts.
Slavery in the US was terrible, being force to serve on a ship at sea was terrible, being a serf or peasant was terrible, being at the bottom of the social ladder in Africa was terrible. Taking the time to read about other nations and the millions of people that have been starved, frozen, overworked and in every way that a cruel person can treat another human will help all of us to concentrate on making tomorrow a better time. in reality the Holocaust as bad as it was is just one example of the cruelty of mankind. Read the history of Stalinist Russia. Study the Spanish Inquisition! What were the Crusade all about? Have you read about the history of China?
Being black is a coincidence which is slowly being changed by the old old rule “opposites attract”! That is why there are no Neanderthals alive today. They were wiped out by sexual activity. In some time in the future there will be no whites or blacks in the northern hemisphere they will all be brown or yellow. See President Trump attempting to block the brown people from coming to the US. White women like black “men” and black “men’ like white women!
I looked up that word “vitiligo” I believe the example of people that today are victims of that medical situation are completely without color and if they had a whole body incident they would actually be totally “white” I have never met a totally white person.
LikeLike
These conversations are conducted by ignoring what other say, by expressions of bias opinions as thought they are factual and are more entertainment then any search for truth.
I may have mistook your question about where White people came from as being about the origins of the label or concept of a White race. However, it is difficult to answer where White people come from when the very definition of what a White person is varies by time and location. So, I leave it to you to define who constitutes a White person and research their origins.
re: Vitiligo, yeah, I mentioned that was a bit of a stretch. But, I did find it interesting that there are overlapping biochemical mechanisms between melanin and brain chemistry. Framing what society labels a “White race” into something that could someday be cured was taking the current science to an extreme position… you’re right, that was largely for entertainment.
Regarding slavery and general human cruelty, I completely understand and agree that it has existed all over the globe in varying forms. However, within the context of this post, the fact that “Africans sold their own people as slaves” does not absolve those that purchased them. Two wrongs do not make a right, but there are people that routinely try to justify modern racism by diminishing horrific acts of the past. That’s not an argument against anything you’ve stated, and from what I gather, you agree. When a kid does something wrong and uses the “everybody’s doing it” excuse, that doesn’t make it less wrong. Even if slavery was something everyone was doing, the lasting effects of the racism which flourished in that time are still with us today.
Side note (directed more at the thread in general and not to you specifically.):
I have personally had conversations with parents who adopt the “sweep it under the rug” approach, choosing to diminish the harm caused, ignore the lasting impact and take a colorblind “it’s all in the past” approach to raising their kids. Those same parents are shocked to hear the opinions their own children have about different races. The kids have a clear belief in stereotypes we’d like to think disappeared with the 60s. These parents will swear it’s not how they’re raising their kids… but it’s so ingrained in our society that without actively acknowledging and countering racism, we will never make any real progress. So, even though slavery wasn’t exclusive a Black/White or American issue, arguing that point is as helpful as arguing “All Lives Matter” as a rebuttal to “Black Lives Matter”.
LikeLike
“However, within the context of this post, the fact that “Africans sold their own people as slaves” does not absolve those that purchased them. Two wrongs do not make a right”
I have never been able to restrain myself to a subject matter that by itself is not a justifiable subject. A man cannot walk without legs. The subject cannot be constrained to what African leaders did or did not do, since slavery was a common activity. Why does anyone believe anyone other than African leaders could sell Africans into slavery, they were the only leader present.
However, whoever proposed the subject matter was attempting to spread horse manure to cover up a subject that should not even be discussed today. it is in the past, you cannot blame people of Rome, Italy for all of the Roman Empire atrocities!
If one is looking at repaying people today for the wrongs of yesterday, neither side has an argument. The vast majority of citizens of this nation are descendants of people that arrived in this nation after slavery. The goal should be to go back to the families of those that have their current wealth based on slavery and remove the wealth. It seems certain that that is not what is desired.
“Once again I am not talking about Tribal Chiefs.” Off subject!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am not talking about foolish people that use such foolish conversation to discuss a subject that such a few people were involved in.
Fact:
“Large slaveholders were extremely rare. In 1860 only 11,000 Southerners, three-quarters of one percent of the white population owned more than 50 slaves; a mere 2,358 owned as many as 100 slaves. However, although large slaveholders were few in number, they owned most of the South’s slaves.”
Something said:
https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2017/aug/24/viral-image/viral-post-gets-it-wrong-extent-slavery-1860/
There are very few accounts of slavery which are documented as factual. 12 Years a Slave may be an accounting; however when was it written and do we know it was not an Abolitionist inspired writing!
We need better schools today to prepare our young people for the current world and to teach them how to be competitive in today’s demanding integrated work environment.
Hate will destroy the hater!
LikeLike
“Those same parents are shocked to hear the opinions their own children have about different races. The kids have a clear belief in stereotypes we’d like to think disappeared with the 60s. These parents will swear it’s not how they’re raising their kids… but it’s so ingrained in our society that without actively acknowledging and countering racism, we will never make any real progress.”
First: No one is going anywhere as long as we teach each other to hate the other. There is a general thought that we can call white people bad and then wonder why our black children feel a need to not want to engage in any race mixing. The identical activities are taking place in the white community. Back to before WW II days. Separation by country of parent birth was the normal separation. WW II ended that. Every nation in Europe had a bad name that the people were called.
Second: A large portion of the black race continues to live in the deep south where all of the old prejudices continue to exist. Currently I understand that the ‘majority of voters’ in some of the southern states are black, even if they only make up one third of any one state. I do not understand this and find it almost impossible to believe. I believe what was meant is the Democratic Party is black. Two thirds of the state may be white Republicans?
If that is the status quo blacks need to find white friends!
I do not recall during my working career any time that there was a period of non racial awareness and resentment. I was replaced by those that thought my job was easy, only to see them fail. My believe “never allow yourself to be promoted to your level of incompetence! Whites could and did and were not punished. I was always aware that I was in a transaction period of race relationship.
Later blacks did not feel the need to prove themselves. My last job for the general public ended in 1978 (retirement date 1980).
Today we have large social groups that our children are a part of and inside of some of those groups racial separation is being promoted. The current Trump Administration is promoting some of the separation and many blacks who are a part of the successful years of integration are trapped between the past and now. My entire work career was supported by whites who were working to advance past the slavery days. Now, blacks are jumping over my years 1945 – 1978) (after 1978 I was self employed) and going back to the days of slavery and attacking people whose families did not even live in this nation in the 1800’s and who fled Europe as helpless peasants and serfs.
The problem is the concentration of blacks in the southern states and in major metropolitan areas where they live in “black neighborhoods”! No opportunities will be presented in those areas that can offset the negative effect of the volume of individuals living there. I do not see any way for this situation to change.
LikeLike
“First: No one is going anywhere as long as we teach each other to hate the other. “
Agree, and that’s not at all what I advocate. I think we agree that attempts to increase/strengthen the divide are counter-productive and teaching fear and hate can only “resolve” through conflict. However, in the face of oppression at the hands of irrational fear and hate, it’s pretty rational to believe conflict is the only viable pathway to resolution and I believe the racist, White supremacist culture must acknowledge itself and change instead of trying to dictate how people react to it.
“There is a general thought that we can call white people bad and then wonder why our black children feel a need to not want to engage in any race mixing. “
Maybe that’s an issue between you and others here, but I’m not calling White people bad… I do call our culture of White supremacy bad though and that culture is the default among White people whether we acknowledge it or not.
“Second: A large portion of the black race continues to live in the deep south where all of the old prejudices continue to exist.”
Not sure where you live, but I’ve never lived in “the south”… The personal experiences that inform my opinions come from the racism I witness all throughout “the north”. It may be more overt and easier to see when there’s more interaction between races because of population mix in the former confederacy, but if you’re not in denial, it’s pretty plain to see and hear in the union states too.
Interesting observation about White privilege and the Peter Principle. However, I bet your observation that “Later blacks did not feel the need to prove themselves.” is probably generational and not racial. Each generation seems more entitled than the last, regardless of race… kids nowadays, right?
“The problem is the concentration of blacks in the southern states and in major metropolitan areas where they live in “black neighborhoods”!
That’s by design. Bill Dedman’s “The Color of Money” articles discuss redlining still taking place in the 1980’s and nothing much has changed today: https://www.citylab.com/equity/2018/04/how-the-fair-housing-act-failed-black-homeowners/557576/
Your generation did make a lot of progress, but the work isn’t done. Maybe my generation has made it worse or maybe we just buried our heads in the sand and failed to continue the work you started. I don’t know, I suspect we’re going to have to agree to disagree on where things now stand and where we need to go from here.
LikeLike
@Open Minded Observer I finally have my thick head fixed on the problem of this conversation!
While using my experience as an example I have somehow made you think i was thlking about “just you”!
I do not think in terms of one individual, or one area or one nation. When you read what I write I hope you see that I am speaking about the entire problem. By referring to Metropolitan areas I surely hope it is understood to be cities like New York, Chicago and Los Angeles.
Thanks for reminding me of where I received my advice, “Peters Principles”! It was taught to me at one of the various education programs that were offered to me as a “worker bee” and assured my ability to be promoted to a level I probably would not have been able to achieve without such training. College graduates moved further up the ladder than I because they obtained the required degrees!
A thought, without successfully completing the 12th grade in High School, by working diligently and extra hours I was promoted up the ladder for work performance and knowledge of the job. I used my GED as a base and my work experience to receive a 2 year college degree, after I stopped working and retired. I have never used the degree for any purpose! I recommend doing due diligence on the job if one desires promotion. People get paid for performance not how they look. While in the military I supervised college graduates who were happy doing what they did!
Happy days!
LikeLike
@Allen Shaw
When I offered experience about racism in the north it was in direct reference to your comment “A large portion of the black race continues to live in the deep south where all of the old prejudices continue to exist.”. I interpreted that to mean that you thought old prejudices were less present in other areas. I did read your comments about population concentration in major metropolitan areas leading to lack of opportunity and my comments were intended to show that redlining has been a deliberate strategy to insulate White people (and consequently their privileged opportunities) from minorities. Further, that those strategies continue to this day.
“People get paid for performance not how they look.”
There’s tons of data to show that’s simply not true. Were things really different 40 years ago?
“While using my experience as an example I have somehow made you think i was talking about “just you”!”
Honestly, I never thought that. I tried to respond with my personal perspective, but I can see how that could be interpreted that way. I think we just don’t communicate well between us. Regardless, I appreciate you taking the time to share your experiences and expand on your views. You are not exactly who I originally judged you to be and it was interesting to learn more about what informed your opinions.
LikeLike
@abagond
Thought you would like this:
http://money.com/money/5645244/robert-f-smith-net-worth-billionaire-student-loan-debt-morehouse/?did=382283-20190521&utm_campaign=daily-money_newsletter&utm_source=money.com&utm_medium=email&utm_content=052119&cid=382283&mid=21199157476
LikeLike