Máo Zédōng (1893-1976), also known as Mao Tse-tung or 毛澤東, was a guerrilla leader married to a film star. By 1949 he ruled a fifth of mankind: China. As a young soldier he helped to overthrow the last emperor of China in 1911. In middle age, he led the Chinese communist revolution to victory in 1949. He ruled China from 1949 to 1976.
One of the most printed books of the 1900s was his “Quotations from Chairman Mao Tsetung” (1966), better known as the Little Red Book. It had stuff like this:
“People of the world, unite and defeat the U.S. aggressors and all their running dogs! People of the world, be courageous, dare to fight, defy difficulties and advance wave upon wave. Then the whole world will belong to the people. Monsters of all kinds shall be destroyed.”
Mao freed China from imperialism, both Japanese and Western. That made him a hero to many, inside and outside of China. He united China and made it a world power.
He greatly increased quality of life in China:
- Literacy: When he took power, only 20% of the people over 15 could read. By 1982, 66% could.
- Life expectancy: In 1950, half of those born were expected to die by age 35. By 1982, life expectancy had risen to 66.
But all this came at a terrible cost: Somewhere between 30 million to 40 million people died:
- When he took power in 1949, he had hundreds of thousands if not millions killed. He sent at least 1.5 million to labour camps.
- At least 20 million died during his ill-conceived Great Leap Forward (1958-1961), made worse by famine and flood.
- Millions died during the reign of terror known as the Cultural Revolution (1966-1976).
In short, he would get rid of people who disagreed with him – and then try out his imaginative but half-baked and unproven ideas on hundreds of millions of people!
He was himself an imperialist when it came to Tibet and East Turkestan (Xinjiang). And, many would regard him as a monster too.
In 1918 communists in Russia overthrew the tsar. Mao, then a librarian at the University of Peking, started to read Marx. In 1921 he became one of the 53 founders of the Chinese Communist Party.
By 1927 he found that what worked in Russia would not work in China: repeated attempts to get unarmed working-class people in cities to rise up failed.
China had sunk into warlordism. The most powerful warlord was Chiang Kai-shek of the Kuomintang (KMT). By 1927 he had kicked the communists out of the KMT and based his power on the rich, especially in the cities. The communists fought Chiang. They worked out a model of guerrilla warfare based on the poor in the countryside.
It worked:
- Way more people lived in the countryside.
- From 1937 to 1946, Japan took over many of the cities, weakening the KMT.
- The city needed the countryside more than the other way round: that allowed Mao to take cities by cutting them off from the countryside.
Mao and Chiang fought Japan together, but once Japan left, the civil war resumed. In 1949, Mao won and Chiang fled to Taiwan.
– Abagond, 2015.
See also:
- Welcome to Asian American History Month 2015
- China
- Marx
- guerrilla warfare
- East Turkestan
- Che Guevara
- Taiwanese Americans
- Asian Atrocity argument
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[…] Máo Zédōng (1893-1976), also known as Mao Tse-tung or 毛澤東, was a guerrilla leader married to a film star. By 1949 he ruled a fifth of mankind: China. As a young soldier he helped to overthrow the last emperor of China in 1911. In middle age, he led the Chinese communist revolution to victory in 1949. He ruled China from 1949 to 1976.One of the most printed books of the 1900s was his “Quotations from Chairman Mao Tsetung” (1966), better known as the Little Red Book. It had stuff like this:“People of the world, unite and defeat the U.S. aggressors and all their running dogs! People of the world, be courageous, dare to fight, defy difficulties and advance wave upon wave. Then the whole world will belong to the people. Monsters of all kinds shall be destroyed.”Mao freed China from imperialism, both Japanese and Western. That made him a hero to many, inside and outside of China. He united China and made it a world power.Continue reading… […]
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
I don’t think the Soviets or the Chinese communists “perverted” Marxism. The rule of terror – at least oppression in the style of the Eastern Block during the Cold War – follows necessarily from it.
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This post raises more questions than it answers. Apparently, China under Mao killed between 3.4 to 8.4% of its 1953 population of 583 million, and millions more during the cultural revolution without crippling its society! India didn’t suffer such catastrophe and yet it never came close to matching the economic achievement of the wily Chinese! It gets better, using 1953 as the starting point, the population increased by 19.2% in 1964, one year after the 20 to 49 millions reported dead in this post and the one on Qian Xuesen! 73% by 1982, 94% by 1990, 117% by 2000 and 130% by 2010! I must add that during that time the Chinese were trying to keep their population growth down! Sorry for all the exclamation marks,the vigor of the Chinese is truly astounding if the claims of mass death aren’t bull. I recall reading somewhere that the population of China stagnated at around 400 million between the opium wars and the start of the 20th century. What was it about Mao’s ‘tyranny’ that led to the extraordinary growth of the Chinese population in number and wealth?
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Economy—I think economic growth (or lack of) is linked more to the bureaucracy than to type of government…. A Government makes economic policies—but the bureaucracy handles the implementation and if it is inefficient—there is less growth…if it is more efficient—there is more growth….
things like regulations, licence, incentives (tax, duties, and other), promotions (trade shows…etc) investments, trade deals and treaties….etc…
The more hindrance and red tape there is to start and grow a business—the less potential for economic development…
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@gro jo
Before the Mao/Communism, you could probably say that China was even really it’s own official country/nation. But to imply that the millions that died didn’t matter for the better of the nation is seriously denial of humanity.
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@ Anon
It is my firm belief that the economic success of a country depends to the largest part on the strength and efficency of the state institutions. Without those it doesn’t matter which policies the government wants to implement. But when you have efficent inditutions a country can suffer enormous devestation and insane policies and still experience a rapid take-off as soon as reasonable policies are put into place.
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Taking Tibet and East Turkestan doesnt seem imperialist to me. Especially in comparison to the socialist imperialist USSR or capitalist imperialist USA
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[…] Máo Zédōng (1893-1976), also known as Mao Tse-tung or 毛澤東, was a guerrilla leader married to a film star. By 1949 he ruled a fifth of mankind: China. As a young soldier he helped to overthrow the last emperor of China in 1911. In middle age, he led the Chinese communist revolution to victory in 1949. He ruled China from 1949 to 1976.One of the most printed books of the 1900s was his “Quotations from Chairman Mao Tsetung” (1966), better known as the Little Red Book. It had stuff like this: “People of the world, unite and defeat the U.S. aggressors and all their running dogs! People of the world, be courageous, dare to fight, defy difficulties and advance wave upon wave. Then the whole world will belong to the people. Monsters of all kinds shall be destroyed.”Mao freed China from imperialism, both Japanese and Western. That made him a hero to many, inside and outside of China. He united China and made it a world power. Continue reading… […]
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[…] Source: abagond.wordpress.com […]
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TeddyBearSniffer, put your moral outrage on park and explain how a nation led by an incompetent ‘ogre’ who was an ‘imperialist’ “…when it came to Tibet and East Turkestan (Xinjiang).” Who killed 20 to 49 million of his own people between 1958 and 1963, due to his trying “…his imaginative but half-baked and unproven ideas on hundreds of millions of people!” Fought a war with India during that period and ‘won’, then killed even more millions during the cultural revolution! While he was busy doing all these destructive things the nation kept increasing demographically and economically! India and a number of other countries who didn’t have a Mao to impede their progress achieved less. Don’t you think that fact deserves an explanation? Hell there are millions of people in India and Nepal calling themselves “Maoists” this very day. If some genius could find the special sauce that allowed Mao, despite all his mistakes to achieve so much, just maybe the same results could be achieved without incurring the costs.
Kiwi wrote: “The fact that he irresponsibly encouraged overpopulation in a poor country, resulting in the depletion of limited resources, environmental pollution, and ecological strain, is arguably tyrranical in its own right.” This is new to me, please provide the source for your information? Lord of Mirkwood, the China-Tibet relation is 1500 years old according to this article, take a look at it and tell me what you make of it? http://asianhistory.about.com/od/china/a/TibetandChina.htm
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Kiwi, thank you for the link, I was under the impression that the reduction of family size had started earlier. The ‘Chinese’ I knew were people of African and Arab ancestry as well as Chinese. The only thing ‘Chinese’ I learned from them was to put soy sauce on everything. What was new to me isn’t the pollution,etc. but that birth control started after Mao.
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Kiwi, do subscribe to the quote you got from the post you linked to? “Mao Zedong encouraged large families and outlawed abortion and the use of contraception, urging women to produce offspring who would boost the workforce and the ranks of the People’s Liberation Army. Mao’s reckless strategy caused China’s population to double from about 500 million in 1949 to almost a billion three decades later.” If the answer is yes, would you apply the same reasoning and negative judgement on the policies of the leaders of the other countries where a “Baby Boom” occurred? If no, why not?
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This is what I know or remember:
China had a baby boom around 1966-1976, ie, during the cultural revolution. Perhaps part of that was a reaction to the failures in the Great Leap Forward just a few years earlier (which resulted in tens of millions of death). Mao died in 1976. The one-child policy was passed in 1979 and rolled out in the major cities in 1980, and nationwide within a few years after that. It was in the 1980s that forced abortions became common.
China has just about completely exhausted its natural resources. For example, it must import timber to supply the bulk of its wood products industry (which, for example, supply much of Europe and some of the USA, Japan, etc. with stuff like furniture. I think it is totally irresponsible for, say, Scandanavian countries sitting on millions of hectares of timber in private hands, and buy wood products from China which imports its timber from, say, Indonesia.
China also exports a lot of seafood products, but much of the raw source material for that comes from fisheries in North America and Europe, shipped frozen to China for processing and shipped back to Western countries. What a waste of resources!
I personally feel it was reckless for China to promote its private car industry and its overbuilt real estate and limited access multilane highways. However, it had no choice but to promote subway and high speed rail systems.
The South China tiger is fully extirpated in its natural environment. Only a few dozen specimens survive in zoos. As far as I know, there is no more natural forest in the Pearl River Delta region of Guangdong (at least I have never seen it or heard of it.)
As someone who lives and travels among the Pearl River Delta region, where about 100 million people fit into an area the size of New Jersey, I feel the strain of overpopulation constantly. The only place I feel can compare is the island of Java, Indonesia, with over 145 million people in the area of England (not UK) or Alabama. Despite that, China’s workforce is now shrinking, due to the post 1980 one child policy which was only partially relaxed in the last couple years.
I must agree that it is reckless to promote baby booms, but it is also reckless to promote forced sterilizations and abortions too. Both policies lead to problems. China is facing a demographic time bomb that is already causing trouble. Imagine what will happen when the persons born during the cultural revolution retire — retirees may one day outnumber workers. We will see hundreds of millions of abandoned elderly.
No wonder it must promote tobacco use — it ensures that larger numbers of people will die in their 50s and 60s and provides a big tax revenue source.
The world already has way too many people for it to be sustainable. We need to cut the world’s population by at least half. How can that happen without a global epidemic?
Japan’s population is shrinking, but is trying to use robots to make up for labour shortages, rather than immigration.
Malaysia is about as reckless as they come, in my opinion. Not only is its birthrate high (and has a young population), foreign labour accounts for almost half of the workforce in factories, and there is no good policy to handle that.
The Philippines only recently eased its total ban on contraception. I think no other countries exports as much labour as there, except, perhaps for Mexico.
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Kiwi wrote: “I know that France currently has “family friendly” policies that encourage people to have more children. I do not agree with that. The world already has too many people for actively promoting population growth to make any sense, especially when immigration can always be used to fill any labor shortages.” Kiwi, I’m surprised that you picked France as a country with “family friendly” policies when, as an American, I would have expected you to voice an opinion on the US “Baby Boom” that occurred contemporaneously to the one Mao advocated at the end of World War 2! Please compare the US and Chinese “Baby Booms” and tell me why they were both such disasters resulting in all the negative traits you listed and paradoxically led both nations to their present preeminence as economic giants! It seems to me that progress is Janus faced.
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Kiwi wrote: “I’m not aware of any U.S. leaders who actively encouraged population growth. Do you know any?” They all did. How do you think money was allocated for things like GI benefits, government backed housing loans, etc? The consensus was that life should be made easy for the generation that fought WWII. The 1930’s was a decade of austerity. My original question still stands. Please compare the US and Chinese “Baby Booms” and tell me why they were both such disasters resulting in all the negative traits you listed and paradoxically led both nations to their present preeminence as economic giants! It seems to me that progress is Janus faced.
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Kiwi, tell me you’re joking. I have lost some of the respect I had for you based on your dishonest attempt to rewrite the question I addressed to you. China under Mao was better fed and educated then prior to his regime. Deng Xiaoping opened China to capitalists but in order to succeed he had to base himself on the infrastructure created under his predecessors. You must be one of those neoliberals who believe in the magic of the market. India didn’t make the strides that China did because it didn’t do the work the Chinese did from 1949 onward. Was Abagond lying when he wrote the following?
“He greatly increased quality of life in China: Literacy: When he took power, only 20% of the people over 15 could read. By 1982, 66% could.
Life expectancy: In 1950, half of those born were expected to die by age 35. By 1982, life expectancy had risen to 66.”
You may not like the man and the system he created but you’re not at liberty to distort the facts to please whatever ideology made you write the nonsense you wrote. Like it or not, he took China from pulled rickshaws to space flight, from oil lamps to nuclear power. The Chinese people benefited from his work as well as suffered from his errors. Since this is my last word on this subject, I’ll tell you that I find the official Chinese claim of 10-15 million dead from the great leap forward failure more convincing then all the talk of 20-49 million for the reasons I pointed to in my first comment.
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I had not intended to continue with this debate but seeing that Kiwi saw fit to accuse me of dishonesty by “shifting the goalpost” I must ask for the evidence on which such assertion is based. The only thing that you, Kiwi proved me wrong on was my claim that birth control started earlier than it in fact did. I thanked you for setting me straight on that point, otherwise, I don’t know what you’re talking about. Where did all the engineers, scientists, technicians, etc. come from to do the work that created the explosion that Chinese labor and foreign capital, a good chunk of which from overseas Chinese, were responsible for. You object to my preferring the numbers the Chinese government put out over that of others, too bad. I don’t owe it to anybody to buy nonsense, no matter who the nonsense comes from? You tell me how a country that saw Between 3.4 to 8.4% of its population die of starvation in five years and fight a border war with its neighbor manage not to collapse? They fixed their problem on their own, no NGO’s running about the place telling them what they can or can’t do. China’s population grew from 583 million to 1.3 billion from 1953 to 2010 with only the period of famine between 1958-1963. If things were as stagnant as you absurdly claim, how has China avoided mass starvation on the scale seen in the Sahel? Was it you who wrote the following? “Most Chinese see China’s large population as a problem and in fact support the One Child Policy.” If you are, don’t you think that an explanation is in order for this support for a government that the Chinese people find “oppressive”? I maintain that Maoist China, despite its mistakes did what was required to take the Chinese out of the state of subordination it had fallen into during the 19th century. I think it is a good thing. Lord of Mirkwood, I get it, you’re the class clown keep it up. Did you ever get a chance to read the link to the article on China Tibet relations over the last 15 centuries?
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You’re a class clown because 15 centuries of interaction between them tells me they are capable of coming to a modus vivendi without your input. You are just as clownish when it comes to the descendents of the Arab invaders who constitute a minority. I’ll go on a limb here and say you’re one of those westerners who loves China so much you wish to see it break up into many parts like in the good old days. Unfortunately Mao happened and created enough consensus to make your wish seem remote from reality.
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Kiwi, since you insist on arguing like a child I ‘m forced to treat you like one. “Own your words. People appreciate that kind of honesty.” I do, any goalpost shifting exists only in your over active imagination. I maintain that China under Mao experienced extraordinary growth in both population and wealth. as Abagond stated in this post the people were better fed and educated and as I’ve said, they went from pulled rickshaws to rockets. we’re agreed that a catastrophe occurred between 1958 and 1963, we disagree on the number of dead. Now tell me where the resources came from to start growth in both population and wealth in 1964 when the population was 19% more than in 1953? It wasn’t international donors and their NGOs that fixed the problem but the Chinese themselves using the institutions created under Mao.
“Your post was about China’s “extraordinary growth in population and wealth”. It was NOT about literacy, life expectancy, space flight, nuclear energy, or now taking China out of subordination. You made those up after the fact to shift the goalpost and avoid embarrassment.” Did you really write this stupidity? Shame on you! So mastering nuclear energy, feeding and educating an ever growing population, lengthening their life span and doing it free of foreign supervision does not constitute extraordinary growth? Pathetic. “Wow, wow. Now you want to use popular support for the One Child Policy, which was instated after Mao died, as proof of support for his regime – all the while forgetting that the whole point of the policy was to undo Mao’s recklessly overpopulating China. Smart move.” Yes, because apparently you’ve failed to note that all these things were done by the party Mao created and led until he died. I’m surprised that fact made no impression on you. Unless you can show me that The Communist party of China was overthrown and replaced by some other institution, I’m forced to conclude that you’re writing nonsense. The party that Mao created is still in power and enjoying a good deal of support from the populace. Like any serious institution, it changed course to keep up with the time. That support was forged under Mao’s leadership. No goalpost shifting on my part here, that’s what I argued from the start, I’m sorry if you were unable to see that!
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Kiwi, it seems you have trouble accepting reality, how else can one interpret this nonsense from you? “By the same logic, we should praise the Republicans and Democrats because they each ended slavery and Jim Crow.” I’m not so sure about the Democrats, but yes the Republicans deserve praise as the party of Lincoln for ending slavery in the 19th century. Being the politically correct guy you are I thought you’d know that fact. The Black community repaid the Republicans by being staunch Republicans until that party decided to betray their interests starting with the dismantlement of Radical Reconstruction in the South. I don’t know what happened to you, maybe the topic we’re debating is too close to your heart for you to debate rationally. Was your family persecuted by Mao because they were big shots in the Kuomintang? I love that graph you keep bringing up. I’ve already given you my interpretation of it: “Where did all the engineers, scientists, technicians, etc. come from to do the work that created the explosion that Chinese labor and foreign capital, a good chunk of which from overseas Chinese, were responsible for.” My answer to my question is that despite a major fail, the labor force was created by the work of Mao and his comrades. your dislike for them can’t change that fact.
Lord of Mirkwood, old buddy, what new clown’s trick have you got in your bag, let’s see: ” “Descendants of the Arab invaders…” Where have I talked about Arabs here?” “In 692, the Chinese retook their western lands from the Tibetans after defeating them at Kashgar. The Tibetan king then allied himself with the enemies of China, the Arabs and eastern Turks.” Some of the minorities are descendants of the Arabs and eastern Turks. That’s really it for me on this topic.
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Lord of Mirkwood, you joker you, why do you claim that I’m for violating anybody’s human rights? I mentioned the fact that some were of foreign origin only to show that we are talking of a long and fluid process here. They and the Spanish Moors should enjoy the same rights as the Hans in China and the other Spaniards. Old pal, has it skipped your attention that the Chinese government even gave exemptions to the minorities as far as the one child policy goes. Why isn’t that ‘reverse discrimination’? Those wily Chinese ‘discriminating against their own, how does that fit your claim of unendurable racial oppression? Let me hear you advocate for similar ‘reverse discrimination’ in the USA, then I’ll take your advocacy for Chinese minorities seriously. This debate with you and Kiwi reminds me of the following: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPw-3e_pzqU)
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“Own your words.” Yes I do Kiwi, how many times must I tell you the same thing? I think the problem must be that we understand “wealth” differently. I understand by wealth, the food produced, the homes and schools built, the medical care provided, etc. Surely you must agree that preventing multiple famines and having the resources to get out of one and continue on the economic growth path while the population is growing from 583 million to over a billion is extraordinary? Maybe not! Now you tell me what happened between 1949 and 1976 so we can put this debate to sleep once and for all.
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Lord of Mirkwood, This is pure comedy I don’t who is most deserving of the sophist of the year award, you or Kiwi? Small exemption you say? You must agree that this goes counter to your claim that the Chinese are trying to extirpate their minorities, that they have coexisted with for 1500 years. I wish the Australians had similarly discriminated against the indigenes of Tasmania.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
It contained a bad link that seemed to have personal data in it. I generally do not allow personal data, like telephone numbers and personal email addresses. One of the biggest reasons commenters ask me to delete ALL of their comments is because they said too much at one point or other.
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BLM movements have been infiltrated by Communists. For your info. These people are typically a step below satanists.
I feel like you stated the fact that he (Mao) killed millions as a side note. He was pure scum . He was a replacement of one tyranny for another.
The new Chinese government have allowed and integrated a much more free market system to have their companies rise up and compete on a global scale. Raising the quality of life for millions of Chinese. However, there is still much corruption there, and room for improvement , as there is here.
I feel like this is pro Mao, and I’m frankly shocked and disappointed. MY opinion. I’m entitled to that , (a preemptive point, to the people who think the first amendment only applies to them, which ultimately hurts all of us… side issue)
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What about the Great Leap Forward? 50-80 MILLION of China’s people killed by Chinese bureaucrats who “accidentally” overreported the amount of food they produced by a factor of about 10X! They were encouraged to increase production and on PAPER they did! Then when the Government came to collect “their cut” it was ALL OF IT!
Maybe that’s why he encouraged breeding so much, to make up for that “mistake”? Even now, the full extent is still being “discovered”.
But yes, the initial post seemed unabashedly pro-Mao. “Ah, so he killed a few million, so what? He freed China, small price to pay!” seemed to be the theme.
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Where have I claimed that there were photos of Jews being gassed? There are lots of photos of them being herded to concentration camps where they were gassed, shot and hanged. Quit being so hysterical.
http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibitions/museum_photos/inmates.asp
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS-Totenkopfverb%C3%A4nde
http://www.jewishgen.org/ForgottenCamps/Camps/SachsenhausenEng.html
http://picslist.com/image/wwii/holocaust/execution/jude/juden/jew/final_solution/jewish_question/waffen_ss/nazi/third_reich/history/An_SS_Guards_/16686032577
http://www.ww2f.com/topic/34546-sachsenhausen/
THIS IS MY REPLY TO KIWI ON THE NOBEL THREAD: ” on Wed 7 Oct 2015 at 05:14:54
Kiwi
@ gro jo
Because the Germans provided all the pictures.
That’s a joke, right? Every Holocaust historian knows that no photos showing Jews being gassed have ever been found, and people still believe it happened. Now you have proven that you are a liar.
As for your cherry-picked anecdotal account, I present this contradicting account:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/11/24/an-oral-history-of-mao-s-greatest-crime.html
Though I’m sure you’ll just dismiss it as anti-communist propaganda, anyway.”
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I provided pictures taken by Germans showing that Jews and others were hanged and shot. I guess that’s not enough for you. I don’t give a damn, the gassing part is just a detail.
I thought I was dealing with an adult, not a petulant child, so I assumed certain things didn’t need to be spelled out. I was under no obligation to provide you with pictures of people being gassed. The evidence shows that the Nazis ran an extermination program which some of them documented with the pictures shown.
As for lying, somebody like you stupid enough to buy Dikötter’s bullshit is in no position to pass judgement on others. Your link about some hustler peddling bullshit doesn’t impress me. Where are the grieving relatives of the 40 million starved by Mao?
Were they all like Pan Zhenghui who didn’t care? “When the Great Leap Forward started, I was sent away to work in Ya’an. I was recruited by the government to be a “Great Leap Forward Worker.” Why? In those days, factories needed workers, and peasants in the countryside were sent to support the factories. I had a child who was just a few months old at the time, but I left him at home and went to Ya’an by myself. The child subsequently died [Laughing]. I was young. I just let things go. I don’t think I cared very much. In those days, young people like me cared for neither our elders nor our children. We did everything we were told to do. We were full of revolutionary zeal. That’s how it was.”
I’m not Chinese and don’t know too many Chinese, but I don’t buy this nonsense. The last part of her statement corroborates what Dongping Han says about his father’s work during that time.
“Like my mother, my father never went to school when he was young. He started working as an apprentice when he was 13 years old. When the Communist Party came to power, the Government set up night schools for workers who wanted to learn how to read and write. He learned how to read and write at the night school. Later, the factory sent him to get training from Shandong Industrial College in Jinan. Because of the training he got, he and a few others were put in charge of building a steel factory in my county (Jimo County) during the Great Leap Forward. The factory was set up in 1958, and in a very short time span, the factory recruited 2000 workers from the rural areas in the county, mostly young men in their late teens and early twenties. For three months, my father interviewed and recruited these workers. Two years later, faced with economic difficulties caused by the natural disasters and the souring of relations with the Soviet Union, the Government decided to close down the steel factory. The 2,000 young workers my father recruited and trained were all asked to go back to their original villages.25”
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Kiwi you are a first class bs artist. The Germans showed that they killed Jews in the pictures. I’m under no obligation to provide you with pictures that don’t exist as far as we both know, so your request for said pictures was a red herring used by a stupid propagandist like you to avoid the questions raised. Why did Frank D. use pictures of the 1942 famine instead of the 1958-1960 one? Why were his informants not able to produce a single picture to buttress their claims? Why did the lady in your dailybeast article come off sounding like an alien from a planet where people don’t give a damn about their children?
“That’s right! You don’t give a damn. Very few do. It doesn’t stop you and millions of others from believing Jews were gassed, even though you can’t find photographs of it. Yet when you can’t find photographs of people starving, you choose not to believe it. I know all about you and your double standards. All the readers can see it but you.
I’m not Chinese and don’t know too many Chinese
Precisely.”
You are really scratching the bottom of the barrel here. I’ve watched enough Chinese films to know that the Chinese aren’t people who don’t care about their families as Ms. Pan Zhenghui’s comments would indicate. Not even you are dumb enough to buy the bs she was saying, at least I hope you’re not. Where are the grieving relatives of the 39-45 million killed? I no longer expect honest answers from you because you’ve demonstrated a lack of seriousness during this discussion. You even see fit to distort my position. I never claimed that the disasters didn’t cost any lives, what I challenge are the numbers claimed by you and Frank D.
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Good old Kiwi, always good for a laugh. You are an embarrassment to sophists everywhere. You’ve got the dishonesty down pat, but your reasoning leaves a lot to desire. Let’s take this comment on an alleged quote from me: ” ” I’ve watched enough Chinese films to know that the Chinese aren’t people who
Ohhh, right. So all Chinese must think and behave a certain way just because of a few portrayals in movies.” You don’t even have the basic decency to quote me in full before jumping in to make your absurd observation. At no point did I claim that all Chinese think and behave the way they were depicted in the films I watched, but even someone as benighted as you must admit that movies depict the people who make and watch them accurately enough to make them pay to see these films.
“Exactly! Why do you believe Jews were gassed when you can’t produce a single picture showing a gassing? Feel free to provide a picture of a shooting and call that a “gassing”. But knowing you, you’ll more likely link to a photo showing someone farting and call that a “gassing”.” Thanks, I needed the laugh. Let me repeat again that the pictures of people being hanged and shot, taken by the Germans who did the shooting and hanging makes it plausible that they would gas them. Your attempt to race bait me with your claim that I was not Chinese was equally funny since your starvation numbers come from a man who, it appears, is not Chinese and doesn’t understand the language that well. You have graduated from clown school. Congratulations!
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The gas probably would melt the film. Apparantly some holocaust deniers actually maintain that angle.
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“Sadly, people who deny the severity of the Great Chinese Famine and go to great lengths to defend Mao do not receive the near universal condemnation that Hitler admirers receive.” If you and the accusers were right they would deserve 45/6=7.5 times the condemnation Hitler admirers get. Since the deaths that resulted from the famines were neither as high as a Frank D. fan like you claims, nor were they intentional as in the case of Hitler’s exterminations, comparing Mao to Hitler is simply absurd propaganda. Only someone who can compare pictures of people being shot and hanged with farting can fall for such nonsense. I’d like to read your attempt to defend the incorporation of the clearly deranged Ms. Pan Zhenghui’s claims about how she was turned into an unfeeling Maoist robot, who abandoned her child and gleefully recounted how that child died decades later!
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Kind of interesting how i guess you could say distilled socialism, ala mao, avoided any type of labeling with a non-secular designation, but lotr is refusing to see religion ala the vatican city, gee, which is neutral like sweden, is impossible without capitalism.
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I really want to study 1959 more.
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“Who cares about Frank D.? You have Chinese writers like Yang Jisheng, Chen Yizi, and Yu Xiguang, but you don’t care because they’re not White.”
Lordy does, not me, Dongpin Han, my source, is as Chinese as You and your sources. Try a little harder at race baiting!
“White people sold their own children into slavery and are still aborting their children by the millions. I’m flattered that you think all Chinese are family-oriented saints but your racist assumption is just wrong.”
Again, your race baiting needs some work, I made no racist assumptions about the Chinese being saints. I just pointed out to you that the article you linked to quoted somebody who sounded deranged to me. This has been a fun exercise in mutual antagonism, since I know that the only thing we really disagree on is the scale, not the nature of the disaster. How do I know that? Let me quote you:
“on Fri 22 May 2015 at 10:22:56
Kiwi
@ gro jo
China’s government has political reasons to downplay the Great Chinese Famine, so we would expect them to underestimate the number of deaths. Frank Dikötter cited Chinese sources who had also had access to government archives, like Yang Jisheng, Chen Yizi, and Yu Xiguang. On average, their estimates come to over 40 million dead.
I do agree that the Great Chinese Famine was not murder, however. I would call it extreme incompetence and negligence that cost human life on a scale rivaling World War 2. There was no intention or reason for Mao and the communist party to kill that many of their own civilians.”
We are in agreement, except for the numbers. Keep working on your race baiting, you’ll get the hang of it soon enough.
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http://acienciala.faculty.ku.edu/communistnationssince1917/ch9.html
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http://www.britannica.com/topic/Third-International
And the term apparatchik is born?
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-Nation_Alliance
This is also interesting, foreshadowing nato, mnc’s and just after the opium wars…
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wow comintern agents they got it down, go in, subvert and agent provocateur, really, farming it out to local fanatics, and then wow, run a cargo plane out of china/vietnam/etc for training in mother russia, etc, it’s the first mcdonalds, or just a stochastic (?) dichotomous fracture from western imperialism but using familiar tactics, to counter western expansion…
you see, white people do really break it down by ethnic/ideological/pedagoguery faction, someone was saying white people are unified, i don’t agree with that
cambodia, laos, air america was in there like wow… it’s going to take a while to process but i’m fascinated with this, it all goes back to 1917, and mao saw the workers were not there in the countryside, i guess it wasn’t until after wwi that the russians really developed their armored vehicle factories etc, i thinjk china was bogged down by the strict information controls and so forth, …
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fascinating!
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but they will just shoot you like dr. king even if you advocate peace or blow you up like in turkey, what the eff
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putin was speaking recently on rt video on the web and according to the translation he was glorifying us-russo relations in ww2 and stuff and totally skipped over the vietnam war and the cold war re:syrian air strikes/missile strikes/drones
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Kiwi, your race baiting and sophistry has become deranged. Keep telling the same lie over and over again, you’ll soon start to believe your bs. Until you stated you were Chinese, I had assumed you were the product of a White and Chinese union, the kind you take such dim view of. All I did was to point out how implausible the 40+ millions your sources claim is. As I said before, we both agree on what occurred we only disagree on the numbers and who should get the last word. Why aren’t you outraged that Lordy’s source, Frank D. turned out to be a fraud? Being the paragon of virtue you claim to be I would have expected you to frown on the use of doctored pictures from 1942 to ‘prove’ famine in 1959. Instead, you produced an article from the daily beast where one of the main ‘witnesses’ is clearly deranged. Your pretense to moral rectitude is looking threadbare from where I stand.
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“Anyway, feel free to have your last word.”
Good, that’s what I wanted all along, your ignominious capitulation! You are racially Chinese, Han maybe? I don’t know or care, but you do because you were the one confessing here how you thought Asian women were ugly to you. Self-hatred is a bitch, projecting your insecurities on me is no way to deal with them. I sincerely hope you grow out of the phase you’re in. I enjoyed our run ins. You write the most fantastic and funny bs, “But knowing you, you’ll more likely link to a photo showing someone farting and call that a “gassing”.” Keep it up, you might have a career writing cheap dumb jokes. I adequately dealt with the Chinese source you provided from the daily beast and gave you my frank impression of his article. I wish you had done me the kindness of reading my source and expressed what you found wanting in his claims. Too bad, we might have had a serious dialog instead of this silly, but enjoyable pissing contest.
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It would have been nice if you had included English links along with the names. No matter, this is a vast improvement from your previous responses.
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Kiwi, being the nice guy that I am I’ll give you another link calling bs on the famine death claims. Please do not interpret this as an attack but as an attempt to initiate a more civil discussion. I take nothing back from the insults I hurled at you since I was only defending myself from your attacks.
http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2011/patnaik260611.html
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You know Kiwi, when people are in the business of selling counterfeit goods, it’s always wise of them to point out that their competitor’s wares are worse than theirs, that’s all I saw in the Dikotter Yang dispute. I remain unconvinced by either disputant.
Utsa Patnaik gave very good reasons why Banister’s numbers are wrong, you don’t even try to refute her objections, why? She showed that Banister overestimated the population by 60 million and disappeared 27 million during the famine! According to her estimate 18 million of those who ‘starved’ were never born! Is she lying?
You are convinced that she is lying: “This is a blatant lie since even the Chinese government admits a famine took place. Any other liars you want to cite?” I don’t know what it is with you on this topic, but you show surprising carelessness. She did not claim that no famine occurred, only that it wasn’t on the scale your sources claim:
I guess you missed that part of her article.
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Utsa Patnaik believes that a massive famine did not take place because in India where food distribution was even more unequal than China no massive famine took place, why would one have occurred in China? She concedes that 11.8 million could have died due to the drop in food production. Dongpin Han backs her assertion up by attributing the deaths of his grandparents and some of the most vulnerable members of his commune to the lower consumption due to the drop in production. Excess deaths do not add up to a famine that killed 20 to 40 million. The fact that nobody can agree on the exact number tells me that not enough good data is available to settle this one way or the other. Your language tells me that you are not in a state where you can think rationally about this subject. You want victims and villains, too bad the world isn’t as simple as you want it to be.
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I was hoping we could get past the name calling, I was wrong.
Here’s my contribution: Kiwi is an idiot who can’t separate beliefs from factual statements.
Utsa Patnaik, Dongpin Han and Gro Jo along with others reject the claim that 20-40 million died between 1959 and 1961. I gave my reasons above and elsewhere, I quoted Dongping Han’s and Utsa Patnaik’s reasons for their skepticism. The only thing you came up with was a list of people who massaged the data decades after the fact to claim massive deaths equal to the death toll for WWII. For your information, Judith Bannister is really Judith Banister.
You love telling me to own my words, I want you to do the same: “…I would call it extreme incompetence and negligence that cost human life on a scale rivaling World War 2. There was no intention or reason for Mao and the communist party to kill that many of their own civilians.” Tell me how the Chinese managed to recover from such catastrophe without outside help? Where did they get the strength to fight and win a border war with India and build all the infrastructure they built? How did they manage to keep the famine hidden from the rest of the world? Where’s your proof that this event even occurred? There was a famine during that time that killed several million, 10 to 12 million top, mostly old and vulnerable people, but nothing like the apocalyptic famine you and your heros like to conjure. You’re hopelessly addicted to bullshit, I’ve wasted my time trying to reason with you.
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Conclusion: Kiwi is an imbecile.
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Kiwi’s lie: “And your only rebuttal to their claims is that they must all be “deranged”. ” The only person I called deranged was Ms. Pan Zhenghui. Your sources, Chinese or non-Chinese, I’ve called liars like you. They even call each other liars as you’ve shown.
“Abagond believes the death toll to be in that range, too.” Well, that settles it doesn’t it? I don’t argue from authority but logic. Abagond is flat wrong here. See Utsa Patnaik’s objections to Banister’s “work”.
“I exposed you and your sources as self-contradicting liars, over and over. I also provided about 10 different scholarly sources that independently estimated the Great Chinese Famine’s death toll to be in the 20-40 million range.”
What ‘proof’ have you provided? A list of names with no indication how they came to the numbers they claim, hell, you didn’t even know that Banister’s name was spelled with one ‘n’ instead of two, an indication of your familiarity with the literature. You are pathetic, I feel sorry for you.
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“I already outed Utsa Patnaik as a liar like you who claims that no famine ever occurred. Oh, wait. You actually agreed that a famine occurred, so even you don’t believe what Utsa Patnaik says.”
She said she was surprised that a famine occurred because
“As output declined from 1959, there was a rise in the officially measured death rate from 12 in 1958 to 14.6 in 1959, followed by a sharp rise in 1960 to 25.4 per thousand, falling the next year to 14.2 and further to 10 in 1962. While, clearly, 1960 was an abnormal year with about 8 million deaths in excess of the 1958 level, note that this peak official ‘famine’ death rate of 25.4 per thousand in China was little different from India’s 24.8 death rate in the same year which was considered quite normal and attracted no criticism. If we take the remarkably low death rate of 12 per thousand that China had achieved by 1958 as the benchmark, and calculate the deaths in excess of this over the period 1959 to 1961, it totals 11.5 million. This is the maximal estimate of possible ‘famine deaths.’ Even this order of excess deaths is puzzling given the egalitarian distribution in China, since its average grain output per head was considerably above India’s level even in the worst year, and India saw no generalised famine in the mid-1960s.”
Unlike you, I maintain my independence with regard to my sources. Dongpin Han reported the deaths of his grandfathers due to lack of food, that fact accords with the death rate rise Utsa Patniak shows occurred.The fact the death rate shot up to 25.4 from 12 per thousand in 1960 indicates to me that famine did occur but not anywhere near what your sources claim. Patniak, like any serious scholar, expressed her bias and gave the reasons she felt as she did. You haven’t refuted anything, you just keep making an ass of yourself by bandying numbers about and not even trying to describe how these numbers were arrived at. If you weren’t the lazy devil that you are you’d have taken on the more substantive arguments she made and proved them wrong.
” If you had ever even met a Tibetan, you’d know that they resent Chinese military occupation and hate Mao for invading their country. But I know you think the Tibetans are wrong about their own oppression and that they should all just bend over to Chinese rule.”
A stupid attempt at goal post shifting on your part. I might have humored you at an earlier phase of our confrontation, not now, not after all the nonsense about farting and calling it gassing. I did enjoy that crude little joke, but one is enough.
You calling me a liar is a riot, you’re the one who pretended that I labeled your sources as deranged. A baldfaced lie. I have maintained that they have exaggerated the numbers, nothing you’ve written has changed my mind.
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The reason I wrote that “at least 20 million” died during the Great Leap Forward is because that was the lower end of the range of numbers I saw. I did not examine the facts or reasons behind any of the numbers, but figured that “at least 20 million” is something most scholars would agree to.
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Abagond, scholars such as Dongpin Han and Utsa Patniak disagree with these numbers. A bit of common sense should have made you skeptical as well. No country could have recovered from such massive loss of life in a mere two or three years. Kiwi is clearly addicted to lying so I won’t waste anymore time on him, but I urge you to look at the historical record, read the Patniak article and tell me where and when such massive loss of life has not resulted in economic catastrophe lasting decades.
” When my sources disagree with one another, you call that “selling counterfeit goods” but when you disagree with your own sources, you call that “maintaining independence”?” Kiwi, my sources don’t disagree, Patniak expressed doubt that the “famine” was as extensive as your experts claim. She did what any rational being would do, she compared China’s 25.4 per thousand death rate with India’s 24.8 death rate in the same year and asked the logical question, how come a 0.6 difference would have caused famine in China but not in India.? I part company with her because China had reduced its death rate to 12 per thousand in 1958, so a 13.4 increase indicates famine to me. Note that without any outside help, they reduced the rate to 14.2 in 1961 and 10 in 1962. These facts indicate to me that the main reason for the rise was due to the people in charge taking their eyes off the ball so to speak, due to the effort to make up for the withdrawal of Soviet aide. I used her numbers and the testimony of Dongpin Han to arrive at my own conclusion that a famine did occur from 1959 to 1961 due to bad harvests that probably killed between 5 to 12 million mostly old or vulnerable people such as the deranged Ms. Pan Zhenghui’s baby. Note that Ms. Pan Zhenghui did not claim to have suffered from hunger! Why not?
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“Can you read? I didn’t say your sources disagree. I said you disagree with your sources:” Kiwi, you egomaniac, what ever gave you the idea that I was trying a point by point rebuttal of your claims? I was making my claim that my sources make a coherent argument that the numbers bandied about by ‘experts’ are guesswork subject to the assumptions made at the start. If you had half a brain you would have seen how implausible it would have been for China to lose 20-40 million and done what it did. Since you brought the testimony of Ms. Pan Zhenghui in this debate, why don’t you explain why she didn’t claim that she was starving at that time? While you’re at it, tell us why a 0.6 difference in the death rate would mean mass starvation in China but not in India?
“For the record, I am open to a lower estimate of the death toll for the Great Leap Forward.” So, you’re not completely stupid after all?
“The only substantial point that got me interested in replying on this thread is to lay out gro jo’s blatant dishonesty on this thread for all to see. Over and over, he has shown that he cannot debate honestly and has resorted to name calling, the ad hominem fallacy, the straw man argument, moving goalposts, being willfully obtuse, the mantra argument, and last man talking.”
In other words, you’re a humorless hypocrite. Glad to see that you can see the mote in my eye but not the beam in yours.
“But the real reason I cannot in my heart of hearts believe anything gro jo has to say is his sickeningly distorted view of Tibet, which I have seen with my own eyes.” Tibet is off topic and a blatant attempt on your part to engage in “…name calling, the ad hominem fallacy, the straw man argument, moving goalposts, being willfully obtuse, the mantra argument, and last man talking.”
When and why were you in Tibet? You’re not some kind of spook now are you? If you are that would explain your blatant lies.
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“The Soviet Union also lost that many people in wars and famines but it was still able to rise to superpower status, rivaling the US. Is that implausible, too?”
Wow, aren’t you clever. It took the Soviet Union about a decade after WW I to recover to the economic level the Russian Empire occupied in 1913. As late as 2000’s, Russia hasn’t completely recovered from “… the dying off of a relatively large cohort of people born between 1925 and 1940 (between the Russian Civil War and World War II)…”
All the belligerents of WW II save the USA required a decade to recover from that war. Britain didn’t end rationing until 1954. Great job displaying your ignorance.
“You did actually read my article, right? Pan Zhenghui’s story barely takes up more than a couple paragraphs and Zuo Rong described feeling “terrible hunger”. Is that “deranged”, too?”
Now it’s my turn to be stupidly flippant, I feel a “terrible hunger” just before sitting down to breakfast, lunch and dinner. Is that deranged too?
“During the famine, starvation often was not caused by lack of food but resulted instead from political punishment.”
Right, what happened to your claim that:
” “…I would call it extreme incompetence and negligence that cost human life on a scale rivaling World War 2. There was no intention or reason for Mao and the communist party to kill that many of their own civilians.”
? I guess that being the complex guy you are you can disagree with yourself. Forgive me for not taking you seriously.
“Get a life. I already shared my experience in Tibet on this blog and was spoken down to by Randy when I described Chinese oppression of Tibetans. It’s more empathy for oppressed people than you’ve ever shown for Asians on this blog, sorry to say.”
Back to race baiting I see, I’m as unmoved by it as I was on previous occasions. Tibet is still off topic.
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According to you 20-40 million Chinese died between 1959-1961 and yet China recovered in 1962 by cutting the death rate per thousand to 10 from 14.2 in 1961, 25.4 in 1960 after starting at 12 in 1958! China must be the land of wonders or you are a clueless idiot. It takes at least a decade to recover from such disasters, not a couple of years.
“Me being the generous guy I am, I gave Mao the benefit of the doubt instead of assuming the worst of him. But you’re right. Upon closer inspection, Mao really was a bastard.”
Kiwi, I’m flattered you chose to use my joke, but I’m obliged to ask you if your generosity isn’t another name for your ignorance in these matters? Why should anyone believe that you are now in full possession of the facts, as opposed to before when you were being generous?
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@ Kiwi
I did do a post on Holocaust denial because that is a thing and because I saw it as being like Birtherism, which i believe Trump was whipping up at the time:
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@ Kiwi
That is part of it. There is also the position of Jews in US culture, as writers, scholars and teachers. Also, as far as I can tell, Holocaust denial is way more common than Great Leap Forward denial, at least in the north-eastern US.
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In L.A. we have the largest Armenian population outside of Europe. They will never forget the Armenian genocide in Turkey. The U.S. has yet to recognize the genocide because of the milatary importance of Turkey.
In regards to the Kewi/Gro jo debate it reminds me of the old SNL point counter point skit where Dan Akroid says “Jean you ignorant Sl**” lol
I don’t know enough about Mao to offer anything constructive but I do think Western propaganda exaggerated the numbers. I also suspect that early communist central planning had a lot to do with the disaster. I wouldn’t call it a holocaust as I don’t believe it was intentional.
One thing governments don’t do is keep track of the number of people they kill, whether by the police, collateral damage during war or central planning disasters like this or in the U.S. Katrina.
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“Great Leap Forward denial”, very funny, a new entry in the victim sweepstakes lexicon. No answer to the mystery how a nation that lost 20-40 million could win a border war, carryout all the infrastructure work they did and have an overpopulation problem a mere decade after this alleged catastrophe.
“The family planning policy, known as the one-child policy in the West,[1] is a population control policy of the People’s Republic of China. The term “one-child” is inexact as the policy allows many exceptions and ethnic minorities in China are exempt. In 2007, 36% of China’s population was subject to a strict one-child restriction.[2] An additional 53% were allowed to have a second child if the first child was a girl…
During the period of Mao Zedong’s leadership in China, the crude birth rate fell from 37 to 20 per thousand,[13] infant mortality declined from 227/1000 births in 1949 to 53/1000 in 1981, and life expectancy dramatically increased from around 35 years in 1948 to 66 years in 1976.[13][14] Until the 1960s, the government encouraged families to have as many children as possible[15] because of Mao’s belief that population growth empowered the country, preventing the emergence of family planning programs earlier in China’s development.[16] The population grew from around 540 million in 1949 to 940 million in 1976.[17] Beginning in 1970, citizens were encouraged to marry at later ages and have only two children.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy#History
“Upon closer inspection, Mao really was a bastard.” Yep, a real bastard who raised life expectancy by 88%, cut infant mortality,etc. Somebody is lying, it ain’t me.
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@ Kiwi
I agree. If the Soviet Union could recover from a hit like that, then China certainly could: it was a much bigger country with a higher birth rate.
Increase due to birth rate is exponential – it doubles every so many decades. Decrease due to famine or war is a one-off hit, not something that gets exponentially worse across decades.
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China had a huge baby boom after the Great Leap Forward during the Cultural Revolution (1966-1976), followed by the one-child policy (1980-2015) in the post-Mao era. If you look at the evolution of the demographic pyramid, you see that cohort following the nation for the past 40 years. They are now entering middle age.
That baby boom replenished all those lives lost in a single decade. It is what contributed to huge growth in the economy in the 1990s-2000s (the “demographic dividend”).
It was the one-child policy which arrested the exponential growth of the population post-1980s (and has actually killed more people than the Great Leap Forward through forced abortions and infanticide). A couple years ago, the size of the labour force stabilized. Now it is declining. By the time the Cultural Revolution baby boomers retire, we will see a rapid collapse of the labour force and a huge increase in the elderly population. That is only 15 years away. Over a hundred million retirees will enter the population with unfunded pensions and only one child, if at all, to help them.
That is not the only problem. Due to the skewed sex ratio, tens of millions of males have come to adulthood with no corresponding female available for marriage. This has also led to the pandemic problems of prostitution.
The relaxation of the one-child policy last week has come too little too late to avert this economic collapse. The “China century” may come to an end in the 2030s.
Or can they somehow consider something like IMMIGRATION? Well, they have to find partners for these single men.
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@Kiwi,
I agree that China is more or less screwed. I think that their society is going to fall apart in the 2030s (we will start seeing it very soon as soon as their baby boomers pass into their 50s). It may be even strong enough to split apart the CCP authoritarian hold, definitely by the 2040s. We might see mass deaths or even killings of elderly people. We will not see mass immigration, but perhaps mass emigration (even more than now).
But China will survive and reemerge as something else, as it always does.
I cannot agree that China’s slogans about uniting with Latin America and Africa as “anti-racist” per se as much as anti-Western imperialism. But, on a racial basis, I don’t think China saw themselves aligned with them.
I am not sure how China’s future demise in the 2030s will affect their relationship with the West. I have to think about that.
India may emerge independently from the West. That is something to watch.
The US may manage to hold on. It depends on how they handle their problems with race. If the interim solution is expansion of whiteness, then there might be extension of the status quo until 2100. I hope they also consider an alternative model for the USA, as the expansion of whiteness policies might not last forever, but without careful management, that might require a societal collapse first. At least they are not poised to collapse due to an abrupt reduction in the workforce, but from an abrupt reduction in white people.
Imagine if both China and the USA collapsed from their separate demographic demises at or about the same time.
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@ jefe
“Or can they somehow consider something like IMMIGRATION?”
To replenish the people missing because they were never born through immigration is very difficult. Germany faces the same problem and I read the number of immigrants needed to sustain the population is 800.000 year. I don’t know that number for China, but it would probably be higher than the number of people willing to migrate worldwide. And that would imply that the are willing to go to China and that the Chinese are willing to take in such an enormous number of people.
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@Kartoffel,
Which is why mass immigration to China just ain’t gonna happen.
They already marginalize the minorities not labelled as Han Chinese within their borders – the local appointed leaders of Uyghur and Tibetan communities are all Han. They marginalize their mixed race citizens. They denied citizenship to the residents of Hong Kong and Macau who were not of Chinese descent (eg, those of Pakistani, Indian, Nepalese or European descent) and forced Britain to deny full British citizenship to HK residents of Chinese descent. They forced mixed race Macanese (generally, those with European surnames who were part Chinese) to choose only one nationality – Chinese surnamed Macanese could keep both their Chinese and Portuguese passports but European surnamed Macanese could not).
Their appeal to getting Taiwanese to join China again is due to their shared bloodlines. With that kind of policy history, how could China possibly absorb new immigrants? It just ain’t gonna happen.
The USA did switch their immigration policy right during the baby bust after the baby boomer generation stopped (mid 1960s). Then they legalized abortion, which cut short the number of babies born to the baby boomer generation. One could say that the USA did stave off a demographic collapse via immigration, but mainly because the immigration rate in USA is as large as it is and they had an immigration policy that offered a path to full citizenship (not to say that the policy actually works fully in practice).
I do not know what will happen to tens of millions of Chinese men who will not find women to marry. Prostitution does not solve that problem. Immigration is off the table. Maybe another mass exodus of single Chinese men overseas – a repeat of the 19th century?
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My bitterness concerning Mr. Mao is on a personal level. His disciple Mr. Pol Pot pretty much crippled my entire family. I fucking hate this motherfucker.
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@Abagond
There’s something with the info concerning Chiang Kai-shek. Said dude as served as an officer within Mao’s regime if you google it.
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66 years/ 35 years = 1.8857142857142857142857142857143, an increase of 88.57%. Where are you getting the 60% increase from?
“I agree. If the Soviet Union could recover from a hit like that, then China certainly could: it was a much bigger country with a higher birth rate. ”
Another ex-cathedra pronouncement from “pope” Abagond. Let’s see the math your argument is based on. Where are the millions of severely undernourished children who survived to become frail adults? They should be in their mid 50’s now. The Soviets didn’t have a population explosion after WW I or WW II, while China did after a decade. The Soviet losses after WW II took at least a decade to recover from, besides, as the winner of WW II they could take all the industrial goods they wanted from the territories they occupied, China had no such means, in fact, they were deprived of some of the goods they got from the Soviets after Khrushchev decided to pull them out after the big breakup in 1958. I’m not sure what you mean when you wrote that China “…as a much bigger country with a higher birth rate. “? Surely you meant to write that China was a more populous country, big here is ambiguous because it might lead one to mistakenly assume that China had a larger territory than the Soviet Union, the Soviet Union was the largest country in the world in size, even today, Russia is still larger than China. I know I swore I’d refrain from commenting here, but so much false information needs to be challenged. The “predictions” on China’s future are kind of wild. Not surprising given the fact that they are from people like Kiwi and Jefe. Jefe, do you still believe the stuff you wrote back in 5/24/2015: “No wonder it must promote tobacco use — it ensures that larger numbers of people will die in their 50s and 60s and provides a big tax revenue source. ” “It” in the quote stands for the Chinese government. Was Mao the first to be gotten rid of in this manner? He was a heavy smoker you know?
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@ jefe
“One could say that the USA did stave off a demographic collapse via immigration, but mainly because the immigration rate in USA is as large as it is and they had an immigration policy that offered a path to full citizenship.”
One of the reasons why I don’t think the days of the US as the globally dominant power are over.
“I do not know what will happen to tens of millions of Chinese men who will not find women to marry.”
I heard that South Korea is actively recruiting women from South East Asia to immigrate and marry. There would probably be less resistance to immigration of that sort, but it seems hardly conceivable for China, because of the number needed and because the single men in China are often of low socio-economic status.
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@Kartoffel,
I agree. China will collapse way before the US does.
But China, even after it collapses, will come back again, maybe as something else, as it always has.
If US goes, it will become something else.
Re: recruiting wives for Chinese men, I doubt any country that would be able to supply the tens of millions required that would be acceptable racially and socially to the Chinese government. There will be no viable means to stave off the collapse.
That is why I think there was no major move to end smoking there. Tobacco provides tax revenues and kills people, particularly men, before they can enjoy retirement, but not until they have provided decades of work. It might not kill everyone on time, but enough statistically, maybe, to make a difference.
It is funny. Mao promoted large families and as many children as possible. After he died, they did an about face with forced abortions and widespread infanticide. Relaxing the one child policy now is simply too little, too late. What social policy will they come up with next?
Surprised no one commented on the “new” public holiday that China declared in 2015 to commemorate the victory over Japan in WWII. However, they changed the image and replaced all the ROC (KMT) flags with the PRC (CCP) ones.
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Of course a political entity of the size of China will always play a significant role in one way or another. But it makes a big difference if it will be a superpower challanging the US on a global level or if it will be a big country that is mainly busy with itself.
I agree on the issue of the one-child policy. China would have seen declining birth rates in the last decades anyway due to societal change, changing the rule now won’t bring them back up.
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@ gro jo
When I said China was much larger than Russia, I meant by population.
If the average woman has four children, a country’s population can double in about 30 years. So if China had 667 million people in 1960, it would have 1334 million by 1990. If 40 million die in 1960, that will be reduced to 1254 million – lower, but the 40 million itself would be made up pretty quickly. As it turned out, China in 1990 had 1135 million, partly due to the one-child policy put in place in 1980.
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@ TeddyBearDaddy
I am not following. What are you talking about?
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Another issue that China is facing that no one brought up is the problems created by the Hukou system. The major one is the effect on children. There are now 61m “left behind” children with no parent present and, together with the children who joined at least one migrant worker parent, a total of 106m children adversely affected by the hukou system, or over 38% of all children. That compares with the total 73m children in the USA.
This problem exploded in the 2000s.
China has always had fathers leaving home looking for work, but now they have both parents missing.
So add up
– 35 years of one-child policy (old people with no children and no well funded pension system)
– heavily skewed sex ratio (men unable to find wives)
– tens of millions of left behind children, or those who join their parents in an area where they do not have access to local schools or the public health care system (children who will grow up poor, less educated and prone to seek criminal livelihoods).
–> a runaway train about to run out of track.
Maybe girls from the countryside can be sent to the cities to be prostitutes for the men there who cannot find wives, but what will the boys in the countryside do?
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Abagond wrote: “If the average woman has four children, a country’s population can double in about 30 years. So if China had 667 million people in 1960, it would have 1334 million by 1990. If 40 million die in 1960, that will be reduced to 1254 million – lower, but the 40 million itself would be made up pretty quickly. As it turned out, China in 1990 had 1135 million, partly due to the one-child policy put in place in 1980.”
Ok, show me ,using your numbers, how they could go from 667 million in 1960( their official figure is 662.07) to 672.95 in 1962 after losing 40 million between 1958-1960? http://www.chinatoday.com/data/china.population.htm. What percentage rate of increase would your four children per woman equal to using the population growth formula in this link? http://www.coolmath.com/algebra/17-exponentials-logarithms/06-population-exponential-growth-01
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Or the majority of them weren’t born to begin with?
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Kiwi, please show me where the “…37,125,491 missing people.” Appear in the Death Rate per Thousand from 1959 to 1961? Using the 1958 death per thousand as base I get the following number of excess deaths:
1,722,913.2 1959
3,926,075.1 1960
1,501,928.2 1961
7,150,916.5 Total
http://www.chinatoday.com/data/china.population.htm
Being the “honest” guy I’ve come to know you to be, You’ll no doubt clear up this discrepancy and show me where I erred. Right now I’m under the impression that some joker took the total excess deaths for the period in question and multiplied it to the number of children an average Chinese woman of that time would bare during her lifetime and came up with the 20-40 million nonsense. 7,150,916 * 6 = 42,905,496 “missing people”. Say it ain’t so.
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Kiwi my dear friend, if the deaths were “underreported” as you say How can you write so authoritatively on the subject, the same question applies to our genial host Abagond? You object to my method of accounting for the “underreported” How did you and your friends figure out what the exact number of deaths were if not by extrapolating using the fertility rate and the population? How can you maintain that the fertility rate remained intact while claiming that millions were dying from hunger? You need to account for the immunity of the fertility rate to the deaths of millions of fertile Chinese women! My guess is that the rate would have fallen.
“The fact that you randomly tried multiplying the number of deaths you came up with by the fertility rate after I provided clear, simple calculations is ludicrous and goes to show how little you know and how desperate you are.”
My dear friend, forgive my inability to be convinced by your use of the formula I suggested. Your calculations were expertly done, but you know what they say, calculations are as solid as the assumptions behind them.
In other words, GIGO, garbage in garbage out. You’ve clearly shown that if no famine had occurred the population would have grown to around 710,075,491 from 1960 to 1962, unfortunately, you failed to take into account the effect that 2 years of famine might have had on the propensity of Chinese women to get pregnant and have children during times of distress.
I’m still waiting for you to identify the millions of Chinese in their fifties who suffered and survived these terrible times. They should clearly show signs of undernourishment, such as being less intelligent and shorter than those born in more prosperous times.
“P=662,070,000*e^(0.035*2)
P= 710,075,491
P is what China’s population should have been in 1962 if no famine happened.
710,075,491-672,950,000= 37,125,491
That is 37,125,491 missing people.
Presumably, they died of starvation. Or maybe they were kidnapped by aliens.”
Or they were created by aliens working in the propaganda departments of foreign nations and dissident Chinese maybe?
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“How did you and your friends figure out what the exact number of deaths were if not by extrapolating using the fertility rate and the population?”
Should be: How did you and your friends figure out what the exact number of deaths were if not by extrapolating using the population growth rate times the population?
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OK, we seem to be getting somewhere. I admire your belief in math! What happened to the 23 million who were born, and presumably died at birth or infancy, where are they buried or did their starving parents eat them? “Great Leap Deniers” like me need to be confronted with the enormity of this “crime” in order, to say as they do on Fargo: “This is a true story. The events depicted took place in Minnesota in [year]. At the request of the survivors, the names have been changed. Out of respect for the dead, the rest has been told exactly as it occurred.” Of course “Minnesota” should be changed to “China” in this context.
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“Chinese avoided reporting deaths to the government in order to continue collecting the deceased’s food rations.”
This implies that the government had ample food supplies, where did they get them from?
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Your comment implies that the government had food to distribute after the crop failures, again, where did the government get the food to ration if not from the peasants? If the peasants had grown enough food there wouldn’t have been famine in the first place.
“What happened to the (insert victims of any historical disaster here), where are they buried or did aliens kidnap them?”
Cute but nonsensical, we know where the victims of the Sahel drought of the 1980’s are buried, we even have pictures of the 1942 China famine victims and of many more such disasters, only for this three year famine, is such evidence missing, why?
“No, it implies that desperate people will do whatever they can to survive. I’m sure if you were starving and your family member died, you’d happily report it to the government and stop claiming their food rations.”
I agree with you that desperate people will do whatever they can to survive, including taking up arms against the government. The Chinese have a long history of rebelling against governments that treat them so shabbily. Where’s the evidence for the “mass incidents” i.e. riots, so prevalent in present day China?
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Kiwi, lay off the sauce, it’s sad to see a young guy like you pick up such filthy habit.
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@ gro jo
There was no Holocaust – there would have been riots.
There was no police brutality in the US between Rodney King and Michael Brown – there would have been riots.
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Our genial host Abagond opines: ” on Sun 22 Nov 2015 at 13:24:35
abagond
@ gro jo
There was no Holocaust – there would have been riots.
There was no police brutality in the US between Rodney King and Michael Brown – there would have been riots.”
The LA riots were figments of my imagination? Did you really write this rubbish? Are you not aware of the Warsaw uprising staged by Jews against the Nazis? Were you sober when you penned your comment or were you and Kiwi drinking the same poison? My reasoning in this matter is simple, extreme repression leads to resistance as the Rodney King and Michael Brown incidents did. Stalin’s predations on the peoples of the Soviet Union provided Hitler with a ready made fifth column when the Wehrmacht attacked the USSR. The fact that my buddy Kiwi seemed to be unaware of the incipient civil war occurring in the Ukraine prior to WWII led me to question his sobriety. Where are the severely developmentally impaired Chinese 56 to 55 year olds born during the famine? Where are the grieving millions of relatives of the dead, those who starved and those who rose up, rioted and were shot like rabid dogs? The Chinese have a pretty violent history and a developed sense of justice, Kiwi will no doubt find me “racist” for this claim, they don’t passively starve to death. Weapons were readily available to the average Chinese in 1959-1960 as Dongping Han indicated in his article.
”
on Sun 22 Nov 2015 at 13:49:54
Kiwi
I distinctly remember North Koreans rebelling against their government during the North Korean famine in the 90s and toppling Kim Jong-il’s regime, leading to Korean reunification. Oh, wait…” Cute but nonsensical.
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@ gro jo
Maybe I was not drunk. Maybe you misunderstood what I said.
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Ok, maybe I did, please explain what you meant. I recall riots after the Rodney King thing, was I hallucinating? Maybe you were trying to say that “mass incidents” i.e. riots don’t always follow oppressive measures. I can’t argue with that, but they usually do. I don’t come here merely to antagonize you and you friend Kiwi. I think you guys are wrong about this event and I’m trying to understand why.
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Interesting article about Mao and his legacy.
Mao Zedong legacy: No rhyme, no reason
http://www.ejinsight.com/20160704-mao-zedong-legacy-no-rhyme-no-reason/
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The article was bs. Mao’s legacy is bigger than the Cultural Revolution or the famine of the late 1950s. People pay attention to China because of the foundation laid by Mao. How ironic that these same people were responsible for shooting down their citizens at Tiananmen Square nine years after the meeting where they denounced Mao!
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https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-53174079
these pictures make me feel some type of way, sad, angry, like wow could you imagine ppl with guns saying this is what it is supposed to and going to be like? have a great day
@ gro jo
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You to v8driver.
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https://www.shahit.biz/eng/
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“2014 Kunming attack
Part of the Xinjiang conflict
Kunming Railway Station.jpg
A view of Kunming Railway Station
Location Kunming, Yunnan
Coordinates 25°1′3″N 102°43′15″ECoordinates: 25°1′3″N 102°43′15″E
Date 1 March 2014
21:20 (China Standard Time)
Target Kunming railway station
Attack type
Knife Attack; Terrorist Attack
Deaths 35 (including four perpetrators)
Injured 143
Perpetrators Xinjiang separatists
No. of participants
8[1]”
How would you respond to such event? Is there a connection to the harsh measures the Chinese government took and the rarity of such event since 2014? How come nobody is advocating such actions in the USA, is it because everybody knows that the US government would repeat the repressive actions it resorted to in the 1960s, 1950s, 1919-1920, etc.?
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@gro jo
To start with, the incidents similar to Kumning attack were inspired to a greater extent by the inapt policy of Chinese officials (e.g. deliberately placing pork lard upon fermentized tea leaves as a part of ‘policy of fighting religious superstitions’). The current repressions and restrictions imposed by the Chinese government will result in nothing but more protests, conflicts and similar incidents.
This could however be prevented by more skillful means.
Making local administration of local and Hui ethnicities. Removing Chen Quanguo from his current position at the Xingjiang Uighur Autonomous Region.
Relenting cultural and political restrictions.
Releasing political prisoners and/or letting them leave the country.
Replacing control and repressions with fiscal policy.
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@Dus’khor Dechen
No doubt the things you advocate could be done, but history teaches that they yield positive results only after the more militant sectors are crushed. Let’s not pretend that ‘fiscal’ policy is a cure all, the militants are people who believe the PRC government is illegitimate.
When two rights clash, force determines the outcome. If I may ask, what’s your interest in the Uighur question? The Uighur nationalists want the right to veto whatever they don’t like, the CPC wants to modernize the region as part of their world economic plans, do you really imagine they will defer to Uighur sensitivities? Has Russia (your nation), the USA, Canada, Australia or any other modern nation that you know of ever bowed down to the claims of their ethnic minorities? Why would anyone expect China to be different?
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@gro jo
I don’t define myself by my ‘nation’ or language or race, I define myself by my religion — which is a Tibetan branch of Buddhism and which I think tells about my motivation a lot — by my gender, by vital energy and species.
When we try to find any lesson from a history the only lesson is that there is no lesson. ‘Militant sectors’ are results, not causes.
Peple should not be put into a digital concentration camps, thats just isn’t right, be they Uighurs or anybody else.
Speaking of Russia, the country I like the least, there actually is an example of Chechen republic. Being formally conquered and forcefully integrated into Russian state, it has made Kremlin to put nice amounts of money into rebuilding the economy and objects. The Chechen Republic is living mostly to its own rythm, the Head of Republic representing one of the local clans and a Kremlin representative being mostly a position of honour rather than a position of any political influence in the region.
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“@gro jo
I don’t define myself by my ‘nation’ or language or race, I define myself by my religion — which is a Tibetan branch of Buddhism and which I think tells about my motivation a lot — by my gender, by vital energy and species.”
Yes, your motivation is crystal clear. Unfortunately for you and other sympathizers of the Tibetan and Uighur causes, your desire for independence for these peoples clash with the PRC’s concept of China. As I indicated above, force will be the decider. Your Chechen example is pretty close to what China is doing. First, smash armed resistance, next, provide the means for the losers to adapt to the new situation.
They’ve done it before as the following from Wikipedia indicates: “The East Turkestan independence movement, also known as the Xinjiang independence movement or the Uyghur independence movement, is a political and social movement seeking independence for Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of the People’s Republic of China as a homeland for the Uyghur people, to be named “East Turkestan”. China (PRC) views the movement as a secessionist movement. Whereas, the supporters of the movement instead see it as a “liberation movement”.”
The Uyghurs are a sedentary farmer people of Turkic origin who have traditionally inhabited a series of oases surrounding the inhospitable Taklamakan Desert, which occupies much of the Tarim Basin. Regarding religion, Uyghurs predominantly practice Islam, with several Uyghur independence advocacy groups claiming that the Uyghurs embraced Islam at the beginning of the 9th century AD. The same sources claim that the Uyghurs embraced Buddhism from the 1st century AD up until that point.
“Throughout its history, the term Uyghur has an increasingly expansive definition. Initially signifying only a small coalition of Tiele tribes in Northern China, Mongolia, and the Altai Mountains, it later denoted citizenship in the Uyghur Khaganate. Finally, it was expanded into an ethnicity of whose ancestry originates with the fall of the Uyghur Khaganate in the year 842, causing Uyghur migration from Mongolia into the Tarim Basin.
This migration assimilated, and replaced the various Indo-European speakers of the region to create a distinct identity because the language and culture of the Turkic migrants eventually supplanted the original Indo-European influences. This fluid definition of Uyghur and the diverse ancestry of modern Uyghurs create confusion as to what constitutes true Uyghur ethnography and ethnogenesis. Contemporary-scholars consider modern Uyghurs to be the descendants of a number of peoples, including the ancient Uyghurs of Mongolia migrating into the Tarim Basin after the fall of the Uyghur Khaganate, Iranic Saka tribes, and other Indo-European peoples inhabiting the Tarim Basin before the arrival of the Turkic Uyghurs.[41]”
“Arguments in favor of East Turkestan independence
The supporters of Xinjiang (East Turkestan) independence generally take two routes. The more controversial route is terrorism, which consists of strategically random acts of violence against China (PRC) and people of Han Chinese descent, with the intention of “liberating” Xinjiang in mind. Terrorism is generally condemned by most sovereign states and intergovernmental organizations. Meanwhile, the second route is peaceful activism. The most prominent allegedly-peaceful advocacy groups for Xinjiang independence are the World Uyghur Congress, which is based in Germany, and the Uyghur American Association, which is based in the United States.
Arguments for Xinjiang independence which are generally more openly accepted by countries of the developed world are those which advocate for peaceful self-determination. Various justifications can be presented in order to justify this measure. Given that historical claims presented by secessionist groups are generally not accepted by developed countries due to concerns over legitimacy, peaceful advocacy groups for Xinjiang independence often instead try to find ways to prove that the fundamental human rights of the people living in Xinjiang are somehow being violated by China (PRC), and that independence is the only way to protect those people.
There are, of course, historical arguments which might indicate that Xinjiang deserves to be independent. Though, these arguments are often ignored due to concerns over legitimacy and accuracy. One common historical argument is that China (PRC) is a colonial occupier of Xinjiang, rather than the sovereign state which has traditionally ruled over Xinjiang. Evidence for this argument usually consists of allegations that China (PRC) is not the legitimate successor state to either the ROC (now based in Taiwan) or the previous imperial dynasty of China, which is the Qing dynasty, or allegations that further previous regimes were somehow also illegitimate.”
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it would be revisionist, from a comintern perspective!
https://www.cntraveller.com/gallery/guide-to-the-stans
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army
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@v8driver
Looks like the author has missed Dagestan, Tatarstan and Bashkortostan — the three being parts of modern Russia — and Afghanistan with Pakistan.
An interesting reading, though. Thanks.
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@gro jo
My primary argument in favour of independent Uighuristan is that the people kept in unhiman conditions where their national and religious identities are subjets to cruel and unprofessional treatment which will result in far greater atrocities in the future.
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@Dus’khor Dechen
What’s the difference between unhuman conditions and inhuman ones? How do you know that Uighuristan will be humane? Have the Uighurs suffered demographic collapse due to PRC ‘oppression”?
Let’s look at the demographic data: “Funny kind of ‘genocide’. the population of Xinjiang was 4,047,000 in 1947 assuming they were 100% Uighur, they increased to 21,813,334 *0.436 = 9,510,613 in 2010. The total number of Uighurs in China in 2017 was
11,303,355 Tasmanians would envy that type of ‘genocide’ if any of them were still around.”
Are the people pushing “Uighuristan” morally superior to the CPC? No.
Were the Uighurs always Moslems? No.
Why should the Uighurs be protected from the changes all other peoples are buffeted by in our modern age?
Your claim of unhuman conditions is not supported by the facts.
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Moslem?
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@gro jo not much about china in this one
https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/trotskys-struggle-against-stalin
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v8driver, I’ll give you credit for your zeal to learn. This is not a bad article on Trotsky.
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@ v8driver
I second gro jo. That is a pretty detailed and informative article about Trotsky, albeit with plenty of editorial commentary by the author.
Shows how people who blast the “evils” of communism and socialism are actually holding up Stalinism as the only example. Stalinism = autocratic totalitarianism. Not Trotsky’s vision of a worker-owed and run state.
I learn something everyday. Thanks.
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what i was saying i assure you it was my rationale to just say that trotskyites and the ccp or cpc comintern didn’t end up as a peer to peer relationship and i was questioning gro jo’s revisionism, sorry about that?
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also lately i read somewhere i think scmp or not, the west was going to use myanmar/burma’s “coup” as a proxy war against china, and that didn’t come true but bbc and cnn is hammering on the uigher issue, and @gro jo that is just shy of genocide/ethnic cleansing if it’s true
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“@gro jo that is just shy of genocide/ethnic cleansing if it’s true”
Have you determined to your satisfaction that it is true? If you have, please share the ‘evidence’.
You might find these articles of interest:(“https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202102/1215966.shtml”, ” https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202102/1215966.shtml“)
Let’s get something clear, I’m not here to convince you or anybody else. Do your own research.
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oh no gro jo i think we as humans should have concern that could happen in general
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Concern about what? The Chinese govt has invited its critics to come see for themselves what they are doing. If you have evidence of something nefarious going on, please provide the proof. Do you go to court accepting the police’s version of your behavior? No, why do you assume China is guilty because it is accused?
You, of all people, should know evidence is required after an accusation is made.
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yes gro jo i do have intimate knowledge of the us justice system; however, look, i don’t want to just bash the ccp eternally. I was just looking at a map, the territory of the ethnic uighurs, and it’s large compared to the total square footage of china, right? #ijs it’s smoke usually something else going on, it’s a lot of chatter on msm now even cnn
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The people speak against their white savior: “globaltimes.cn
Companies, individuals in Xinjiang to sue rumor mongering Adrian Zenz for causing reputation damage, economic losses
Global Times
2-3 minutes
Companies, individuals in Xinjiang to sue rumormongering Adrian Zenz for causing reputation damage, economic losses
Adrian Zenz Photo: Screenshot of an online video
Adrian Zenz Photo: Screenshot of an online video
A number of enterprises and individuals in Northwest China’s Xinjiang Uygur Autonomous Region have directed lawyers to sue German national Adrian Zenz (who calls himself Zheng Guoen in Chinese), Xinjiang local news outlet ts.cn reported.
Local people said that Zenz spread “forced labor” and other rumors related to Xinjiang, which damaged their reputation and caused them to suffer economic losses.
They have filed a civil lawsuit with a local court in Xinjiang, demanding that Zenz apologize, restore their reputation and compensate them for their losses.
Adrian Zenz, born in 1974, is an infamous anti-China pseudo-scholar. He is a German far-right fundamentalist Christian who believes he is “led by God” on a “mission” against China, member of the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, a far-right organization established by the US government in 1993, and senior fellow in a research group set up by the US intelligence community against the vocational education and training centers in Xinjiang.
In 2018 when he was still a faculty member of the European School of Culture and Theology at Columbia International University, Korntal, he has gone almost overnight from an unknown researcher into a go-to pundit on Xinjiang, as the US steps up its disinformation campaign against China.
In recent years, Zenz has produced multiple sensational “reports” on Xinjiang on social media platforms like Twitter, and fabricated false academic research on Xinjiang, in which he spread rumors such as large-scale monitoring of local ethnic minorities and forced labor of the Uygurs.
These false claims have been pursued by Western media. Misled by such rumors on Xinjiang, some countries and companies have reduced or even halted imports of cotton and cotton products from Xinjiang, causing some cotton farmers and cotton processing enterprises in Xinjiang to suffer great economic losses.
Global Times”
Abagond, I hope they won’t come after your blog for repeating Zenz’s lies. The article is 346 words so I posted it in its entirety.
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https://fas.org/blogs/security/2021/07/china-is-building-a-second-nuclear-missile-silo-field/
same ol’ hail discordia crap, liberate the people or immanentize the eschaton, enchante.
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it’s v8driver, im not on my computer right now
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