Anglo-Protestant culture (1600s- ), says Samuel P. Huntington in “Who Are We?” (2004), is the heart of mainstream culture in the United States.
Language: English.
Roots: lower-middle-class England, particularly East Anglia, in the early 1600s. Some, like the Puritans, came to North America because they opposed the Church of England. Some had fought the king in the English Civil War (1642–1651). This led to certain ideas about politics and religion becoming common in English-speaking North America:
Politics: Their ideas about government came from the Tudor constitution of the late 1500s and early 1600s, things like:
- rule of law,
- division of power among separate institutions and governments,
- two-house legislatures,
- legislative committees,
- militias instead of a standing army.
1600s: Pilgrims go to church
Religion: Not just Protestant but a particular kind:
- Bible-believing – all religious truth comes from the Bible. People read the Bible for themselves and come to their own conclusions.
- saved through faith – not through works or sacraments, therefore:
- no priests – the believer has a direct relationship with God, therefore:
- no state religion – instead people form their own churches and choose their own leaders. From this came ideas of political equality and democracy.
- bearing witness – to spread the faith.
1700s: Signing of the Declaration of Independence
The American Creed: These political and religious ideas, with a little help from the Enlightenment, led to what Gunnar Myrdal in 1944 called the American Creed:
- the dignity of each human being,
- all are equal,
- each has the right to freedom, justice and fair opportunity.
Pretty much what Jefferson wrote in the Declaration of Independence in 1776 and what Tocqueville observed as political values in the 1830s.
Individualism and hard work: Comes from the Protestant work ethic. People in the US work longer hours and take more pride in their work than in other Western countries. Each person is seen as rising or falling based mainly on one’s own hard work. The idea of the self-made man.
Moralism: in politics (abolition, prohibition, abortion) and foreign policy (democracy and human rights), generally caused by:
1800s: the Second Great Awakening
Great Awakenings: periods of religious awakening in the US. There have been four so far:
- 1730s-1740s: led to the American Revolution.
- 1820s-1830s: led to abolition, civil war, Mormonism, Sunday School, Liberia.
- 1890s: led to prohibition, populism, progressivism, women’s right to vote, anti-trust laws and practices like direct primaries, referendums and recall elections.
- 1950s-1960s: on the left it led to protests against Jim Crow and the Vietnam War. On the right it led to moves to limit government, abortion and help for the poor.
1900s: Margarita Carmen Cansino, aka Rita Hayworth
Anglo conformity: Those who came from Europe learned English and took on Anglo-Protestant ways. Protestant values deeply affected Catholicism and other religions in the US. People from Mexico, however, do not seem to be Anglo conforming. Huntington says it could wind up badly dividing the country.
2000s: Ferguson
Failings: Huntington admits to some of its failings, like slavery and racism, but he sees them as just that, failings, and not, say, pillars that hold it up, as Andrea Smith does.
See also:
- The clash of civilizations – also Huntington
- Know-Nothing Party
- counter views:
- Anglo Americans
- English
- Bible
- Catholic
- Protestant
- American slavery
- Jefferson
- democracy
- United States
- Back to Africa – Liberia, etc
- American abolitionists
- Jim Crow
- Ferguson
Abagond 
Makes me sad to see how far we’ve fallen…
Even more tragic than the senseless slaughter of the Gentle Giant:
https://goodbyeamericainaphoto.wordpress.com/
…and the worst is yet to come.
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@ Kiwi
Jews are not accepted by the mainstream Kiwi. They are much more like a force that (for various reasons) can’t be ignored. They took it upon themselves to amass enough power to have serious influence; that’s not the same as being accepted.
Blacks took on Anglo-Protestant ways by learning English and adopting Protestant Christianity, but they’re not accepted by the mainstream.
If you’re a subjugated person (example: a slave) and you take the religion and the language of the (at the time) oppressor, your adoption of the oppressor’s ways are going to be understood not as voluntary but as doing the best you can, through a mixture of amnesia and victim behavior. I’m not saying American blacks did not make free choices later, after slavery, they did. But the behavior and cultural attitudes of blacks have murky influences, to say the least, when the point of departure is slavery.
Lest you think what I’m saying harsh, consider that Malcolm was pointing out the very same thing to American blacks when he forced them to confront the very names (European names) that they have. Or, when he asked them to confront why they want to fight someone if called an African by that someone.
Kiwi, if you or I keep keep someone under our thumb for decades, that person will take on a lot of our characteristics, and characteristics of their new “role” as well. Consider the old Stanford Prison Experiment. Also consider the Kapos in the Nazi concentration camps. Frankl (Man’s Search for Meaning) pointed out that the Kapos were often more brutal than the Nazi personnel at a concentration camp.
Lastly, a conquered, beaten people who take on some or many of the qualities of the conqueror will not engender respect, their adoption of said qualities is not a free choice so why would it be respected?
Kiwi, when you put it this way:
Blacks took on Anglo-Protestant…
instead of
Blacks took on Anglo-Protestant ways in a mixture of coercion and free choice depending on where we examine the history…
you oversimplify the dynamics that have taken place.
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@ Abagond
I would add the English Common Law as a cultural trait that distinguishes the Anglo World from the rest.
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Abagond, why did you name this thread “Anglo-Protestant culture” instead of “Anglo-Saxon culture?”
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The characters from the reading primer are the epitome of Anglo-Protestant culture.
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This is why Jews, Italians and other immigrants had to change their names to assimilate into so called Anglo culture.
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@ Kiwi
When you make relative comparisons, there is certainly a case to made for their [Jews] degree of acceptance; I was thinking more in absolute terms.
Anti Jewish notions are not a far off distant thing, I think you see Anti Jewish sentiment just under the surface of things, I think it is still a part of American culture. I remember how surprised I was to see (what could be called) anti semitism in Hemingway’s The Sun Also Rises. Hemingway–the much celebrated American author. I remember the disgust I felt with his depiction of blacks.
You and I have a different view here, that’s perfectly fine.
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Asians also change their names voluntarily but they will never gain acceptance.
Kiwi, be careful of that word: “never”, it can be a negative self fulfilling prophesy.
Take heart:
-Ayn Rand
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(I’m not necessarily advocating Asians changing their names though. Fighting for the future is different depending on the group, the times and the circumstances.)
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The WASP (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant) ability to PRACTICE Christianity and racism at the same time is logically supported and defended in a book published in 1900 called:
THE NEGRO A BEAST written by Chas. Carroll
In the book he makes theological and scientific arguments that not only address the perceived hypocrisy, but ultimately “prove” Christianity and racism are the same thing (or at least should be practiced as such)
White people have struggled and fought each other over how to deal with the non white world majority population and still be a Christian. This book describes the logic, science and theology that drives the motivation of one of these two groups.
It is a must have for any serious student of counter racism science.
Click to access carroll.pdf
A big thanks to whom ever did the PDF upload (the lowest price on Amazon $75.00)
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@Legion,
I agree that Jews are still not exactly accepted by the Mainstream, and not by WASPs or Republicans either, (unless, perhaps, they fully become Anglos, including changing their names and renouncing being Jewish or completely hide it.
They tolerate them to a large degree. Doesn’t mean accept.Govt support of Israel might be due more to the powerful influence of Jews, not because they are fully accepted.
I suspect that Kiwi did not actually encounter many Jews, or only those that had completely anglicized. He should consider living in other parts of the country too.
Having said that, that might change as WASP stranglehold on USA society and culture changes.
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@Kiwi
If Jews are tolerated only due to their powerful influence, then the same should apply to blacks and Asians, who are both more numerous.
Since when does being more numerous have anything to do with the power one wields. Asians are too busy marrying and sleeping with whites as you yourself often point out. Blacks are too busy looking for Black saviors (like Obama, et. al.), going to church, following pseudoscience, getting disenfranchised, becoming a success and then “turning their back on…”, and a whole host of other things.
As I said Jews have been busy amassing power for centuries now and taking care of their own. They are awesomely effective at this. Black Americans have a long pathetic tradition of church going, dating back to slavery; not the most effective means to power.
Jews have a long tradition of banking, that’s pretty powerful. They have been intellectual titans too: I often forget that one of the most celebrated pre enlightenment works of Philosophy ––Spinoza’s Ethics,was written by a Jew. Jews have been kicking ass and taking names for a long time.
Jews have a history of being a minority in a hostile environments. It really should appeal to the intuition that because they were often less numerous, they saw the need to get power and influence in order to survive and succeed.
Being more numerous can also lead to things like decline and complacency.
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Also, if a significant number of Asian women make it a top priority to sleep with white men, then again, why talk about “more numerous” Asians, not having the power and influence that less numerous Jews have? There is very different behavior happening in each of the three groups we’ve been discussing. And why wouldn’t there be different behavior; each of these groups have differing histories and values.
————
Jefe wrote a looong write up to me on the Open Thread about Asian ingratiating of white culture. Kiwi you know all three groups are different. What are we talking about here?
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Kiwi
@ Legion
Jews are not accepted by the mainstream Kiwi.
I think they are
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The debate you guys are having is the reason Jews work so hard pushing “multiculturalism”. They intend to dilute the mainstream to the point your discussion is null and void.
Central to this goal is the promotion of “race mixing”. When people are confused about their identity, they are easier to control and less able to unite.
This is why the Aryan is the eternal enemy of the Jew.
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Not gaining acceptance is okay to me at this point. You just have to manage yourself within the boundaries.
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@ thwack
Thwack, what are you doing? WHAT. ARE. YOU. DOING.?
You already know that I think you’re a useless bum. I think anyone who is in awe of some Neely Fuller person is a useless bum and a peasant minded fool that can only see and reduce everything in the world to racism. You are also a peasant minded fool that is constantly bringing up racist imagery for shock value. It’s ridiculous.
Do not bother addressing me. I did not read your useless comment. I’m speaking to you now solely based on the “@ Legion” salutation in the beginning of your comment.
Don’t you have a meeting of peasants who all want to talk ad nauseum into the wee small hours of the morning about the many headed Hydra of racism and/or race, and how those things are always, always the cause of everything; highly engaging stuff, right? Certainly more interesting than talking to me. Ok then, get off to your meeting and you and those peasants can save black people; thankless job but you torch bearers are up to it ,right?
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Lesion,
what are you unwilling to do to replace racism with justice?
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The ability of Protestantism to customize Christianity for its immediate needs is both its greatest strength and weakness. Its flexibility often cancels out its integrity.
In contrast, Islam is the latest iteration of the template for religion success:
1. Keep it simple so poor people can understand it.
2. Make it anti racist so everyone can gain membership.
3. Have a prophet to receive revelation from God, spread the word, and then codify it in a book.
It has been said the protestant faith is the Christian version of Judaism. LOL
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@ Kiwi
This (we’ll call it second comment):
Similarly to Jews and Chinese, African and West Indian immigrants are largely made up of highly skilled, educated professionals yet their life opportunities are even more hindered than that of Jews or Chinese. This is due to racial reasons alone and fits America’s stratified racial hierarchy, with whites on top, blacks on bottom, and the rest in between.
and the comment you made just above it are good overall depictions. In second comment you are looking again at the relative comparison and reminding me of the race hierarchy. Although I had been thinking about “the acceptance” in binary absolute terms, the practical, powerful, effective day to day reality of an operating hierarchy can’t be denied and shouldn’t be ignored. You and I were looking at this from different places.
I think the absolute view and the relative comparison view are both important.
———————————————————————————-
Speaking to the absolute view again, for the moment:
The Jews’ most “outsider” moment in recent history has been, of course, The Holocaust. It would have become very awkward and embarrassing to openly wear one’s anti-semitism in an open manner after the war. If Jews became accepted Kiwi, as you maintain, they had to be nearly wiped out to gain this “acceptance”.
———————————————————————————
Kiwi, we won’t profit each other by going round and round on this. I too, like Jefe, believe you could really profit from knowing some Jews at a more than casual level, to get some direct sense of them as a group. Admittedly, I have known few Jews myself but the ones I have known feel distinctly different from the feelings one gets from WASPS.
For example Jews know themselves as oppressed. They know themselves as having to fight (in smooth clandestine manner) to protect themselves and achieve worldly success. WASPS on the other hand think the world belongs to them and have a lazy, smug confidence about them. WASPS know themselves as conquerors. (Though perhaps, they don’t use that word or even think that word. An analogy: if you let a bath run too long the water will overflow; it’s just what happens. If the WASPS come to The New World eventually they will just supplant the Indian and takeover, because that’s normal. <—I think that is the self serving narrative that is out there, in a big way.)
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Hierarchies are real and powerful structures. Look, those people who can’t use the system in certain ways because their dark skin throws up blocks, are going to have to travel a different path than those who did and do have lighter skin and were able to use the system in ways particular to their group. You have to do what’s practical and what makes sense. Social boundaries have a life to them, a flux. Jews were probably able to highly leverage Civil Rights legislation of the 60’s. It doesn’t mean they were “accepted”, it’s just that there was another social move in American social history. And like I said, The Holocaust is a specter that leaves various social effects of its own.
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Some not all can be very racist for example in New York in Crown Heights the relations between Jews and African Americans is pretty frosty. I remember reading this from back in the late 80’s-90’s. They are very privileged and hold very high positions of power.
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There was once a time in this country when being Catholic was frowned upon. That is probably why Kennedy was looked down on in the 60’s. Not to mention Judism. And today Islam is viewed with much suspicion.
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@ thwack
Ohhhh! You want to play name games now because you’re hurt. Oh poor little thwack. Ok, name game:
A little Freudian analysis on your name:
“Thwack” as in you like to wack off to Neely Fuller.
There you go sport! 🙂
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Anyone saying Jews are accepted is engaging in a colour blind racism of a type, based only in ignorance, not malice.
Fact of the matter is that if a guy who looks white, named Barry Diamond, eats bacon cheeseburgers with you on company lunches, and who works late on Friday and on Saturday with you and says he’s Jewish: he is going to seem like an OK guy to you.
If his name is Baruch Diamant and he says he can only work until an hour before sundown on Fridays, until after sundown on Saturday (and all other major Jewish holy days, not holidays), you’re going to feel put out the less like you that he his, even if he wants to work Christmas and Easter and Thanksgiving and so on for you, because the difference is repugnant to most, and they don’t get it.
When confronted with a huge difference, he suddenly seems alien. People start to wonder if he only looks out for his own kind. They wonder if he’d steal cash out of the till for ostensibly good purposes like feeding his family, or a secret drug problem from religious pressures, and so on. It’s weird that way.
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@ Kiwi
On one hand, they realize that racism is real and that it cannot be ignored. But on the other hand, they are aware of their white privilege and they do not want to let go of it. (my emphasis)
Sure, that’s a type of social behavior we would expect to see before going out in the world to have a look. After we go out in the world to have a look we may be saddened at confirmation of the expectation but realistically we have to accept that it’s there and the many solid reasons why it would be there.
To me Jews seem to have their own way of having dealt with being “persecuted others” and with being outsiders. If a group has found “the best” way of handling the outside world, they won’t quickly change a formula that has been working for them. It’s very risky to change what has been working. Again, I believe, groups will have to find their own particular paths.
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If his name is Baruch Diamant and he says he can only work until an hour before sundown on Fridays, until after sundown on Saturday (and all other major Jewish holy days, not holidays), you’re going to feel put out the less like you that he his, even if he wants to work Christmas and Easter and Thanksgiving and so on for you, because the difference is repugnant to most, and they don’t get it.
When confronted with a huge difference, he suddenly seems alien. People start to wonder if he only looks out for his own kind. They wonder if he’d steal cash out of the till for ostensibly good purposes like feeding his family, or a secret drug problem from religious pressures, and so on. It’s weird that way.
Yes! Exactly.
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People start to wonder if he only looks out for his own kind.
And those “people” would be the ones who want to set what the default is for being a person, i.e. a regular American person. I think the people setting that default are the WASPS. They want everyone to go along with the default so that they can continue artificially imposed practices that develop a cover of normalcy because everyone is going along with it.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/05/24/the-white-default/
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@ Kiwi
Kiwi continuing Yaeli D’s idea, consider the following. When you think about “white” people, don’t you think about the Dick, Janes and Sally’s of this world?
We don’t think about the Baruch Diament’s, well not typically.
I scrolled up to Abagond’s post to look at the companion links. I went back to the Clash of Civilization thread. I made a comment about what is “likely signified” by a person’s colour. That if a white person sees me, they can make a guess that I don’t have the same values about European oppression or racial hierarchies that they may have. I think I stuck to colour but only because it’s an easily identifiable marker (Hitler and the Nazis had to put a Star of David on Jews to achieve that easily identifiable marker they were looking for.). Anyway, my point is that Yaeli D has raised this point again: As soon as Barry becomes Baruch and ostensibly observes his culture, his religion and his cutoms, all that “acceptance” melts away.
Kiwi, as you pointed out on that Tiger Woods thread, you and I are unambiguously people of colour by our appearance. There is a dimension to the way we live that takes into account the obvious marker* of our skin colour. Jews don’t necessarily have that marker seen from miles off, but the scenario that Yaeli D presents is a real one.
——
* Term: obvious marker
An obvious marker to others who have an issue with it. To us it’s our skin.
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The Jew cannot hide from the well trained eye because ultimately his physical appearance is not what betrays his presence.
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@ Thwack
I use the term “Anglo-Protestant culture” because that is what Huntington calls it – probably because Protestant values are an important part of it.
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@ Kiwi
Right. A huge thing Huntington left out is racism, which he regards as a failing, not a feature.
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Legion
Kiwi, when you put it this way:
Blacks took on Anglo-Protestant…
instead of
Blacks took on Anglo-Protestant ways in a mixture of coercion and free choice depending on where we examine the history…
you oversimplify the dynamics that have taken place.
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Correct; especially when you consider a black slave was probably unaware of the Catholic/Protestant schism.
Back then, the “critical question” for a black person to ask a white person was: “Do you think I am a man, a descendent of the first man Adam formed by God in his image and given a soul when God’s breath was blown into my nostrils?”
“Or do you think Im a beast? SPOKEN into existence like everything else?”
Because if you think Im a beast, I am justified in killing you and eating you right now, like any other beast?”
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Kiwi
@ Legion @ thwack
However, because Anglo-Protestant culture permeates throughout American society, there is no term with the same power or effect leveled at Anglos, the dominant social group.
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Yes there is.
For a white person, the term with the same power or effect is the term “racist.”
Why?
Because a white person knows that once you decide they are a racist, there is no valid reason to continue to use words to communicate; and its now time to stab them in the neck with an edge weapon.
Sorry to be so blunt, but thats what white people hear when you call them “racist”.
Even if you don’t “get it”, they know you have no valid reason to continue talking to them and should engage initiate direct violence.
Its like calling them Satan.
If you had the chance to kill Satan, would you do it?
Calling a person unjust is the most serious charge you can make against them.
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@Legion,
Yeah, I can tell that Kiwi has had scant direct experience with Jews. The ones he had met were ones that he thought were just “white” people until he found out later that they were Jewish. So he assumes that Jews masquerade as WASP’s until the “moment”. This is been the subject of many American fictional and film works until now. I think it feeds on WASP fears about “other” taking over their way of life, not to mention about aliens taking human form and supplanting their way of life.
Actually, this is not too different from the WASP fear of blacks and Asians. One of the biggest fears whites had were those blacks who could “pass” as white, but maintained their black identity. When Walter White was president of the NAACP, whites feared him more than many of the more flamboyant darker civil rights activists. The fear of Asians was that they would be so integrated in American life that they would suddenly take over the country and leave WASPS by the wayside.
There are Asians who do play white, even WASP roles in Hollywood, at least some of the time, eg, Moon Bloodgood and Kirk Acevedo (plus many others). In Kirk Acevedo’s case, neither of his parents are non-Hispanic white, (Puerto Rican father, Chinese mother), but evidently enough people in Hollywood think he can pass as white enough to play a WASP role, at least some of the time. I don’t think that is really too materially different from some Jewish Americans passing as white to play a WASP role. Some Jewish Americans do not pass as WASP enough to play a WASP role. OK, more Jewish Americans can pass as WASP than Asians or Blacks, but qualitatively, I don’t think that the phenomenon of trying to be more WASP or passing as WASP is not that qualitatively different.
In some respects, Asian Americans are even more “white” than Jewish Americans. This is especially true in the choices that white WASP men make is selecting a wife. At recent as 50 years ago, not to mention 100 years ago, it would be devastating for a white WASP family if their son married either an Asian woman or a Jewish woman (esp. since there is a higher cultural and historical tradition of Jewish ethnicity passing through the maternal line). For white WASP males marrying Asian women, it was relaxed somewhat after Asian War Brides became more commonplace (and white parents started to have Asian daughter-in-laws), but accelerated in the 1970s following the repulsion of anti-miscegenation laws and the huge growth in the Asian American female population.
In the 2010s, it might be more alarming for white WASP parents if their son marries a Jewish woman as opposed to an Asian American woman. Does that mean that Asian American woman are more accepted into white WASP families than even Jewish ones? The acceptance of Jews as “white” and the corresponding rejection of Asians as such is not an absolute given.
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I did not grow in neighborhoods with large Jewish populations. I did grow up on the battlegrounds between white / black segregation, desegregation and resegregation. This allowed me to experience phenomena such as blockbusting or forced mandatory desegregation first hand. The only time I got to see large numbers of Jews in high school was at the East Coast Mathematical Olympiads – even in the late 1970s, they were dominated by Jews and Asians (Chinese and Indian). WASPS were already a minority at such events back then and blacks and Latinos were all but non-existent. Since I lived in / near majority black areas all my life, that was a different experience for me as a teenager.
But at age 16, I entered a university that was over 1/3 Jewish, both the students and the faculty. My freshman year dorm and my classmates in my major were over half Jews. My university closed for all the Jewish holidays. They called my university as the one where Havard rejects ended up going, but most of those affected were Jews. They tended to room the Jews together. As Jews outnumbered WASPs, I got exposed to a strong sense of Jewish consciousness both day and night.
Later on, I lived in New York City. Large sectors of the politics and economy are dominated by Jews, esp. in the field I was working in (Actuarial). I worked in a racially / ethnically stratified consulting firm, with WASP senior managers, Jewish middle managers and consultants, Asians in the systems department, blacks and Puerto Ricans in the mail room. In my last job in NYC,
Later, I was at an insurance company where the entire managerial actuarial staff was manned by orthodox Jews. They had 1 West Indian (black) project manager on the team and 1 WASP. I was hired on a temporary basis along with 1 orthodox Jewish boy, 1 black Hatian guy and a Korean-American woman. In December, the entire Jewish staff (which was over half the staff) left work on Friday at about 3pm to be home for Shabbatz. The rest of the staff was required to work Friday evenings and all day Saturday. They were also required to work on Jewish holidays. All the Jews (60-70% of the staff) were exempt from it. When they ordered meals for us working overtime Mon-Thu, they only ordered Kosher food.
They were exempt from overtime, but they were the ones who got promoted and put into managerial positions.
They offered a full-time job afterwards only to the Orthodox Jewish boy afterwards. The rest were let go. They did engage the black Haitian guy later, but in the end, they fired him too.
Since it was a temporary job, I didn’t complain too much. They paid 50% premium for overtime, so I actually could make even slightly more money (for a short term) than I could at a full-time permanent job. But, enduring that for years would definitely become repugnant to non-Jewish coworkers.
I couldn’t find a permanent job in NY, so when one came for me in HK, I left NY.
These are only some examples that I experienced directly, but I can echo some of what Yaeli D said.
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@Legion,
I will tend to agree with you more or less about your gross depiction of the accommodation and navigation behaviour contrasting Jews, Asians and blacks with respect to white, WASP culture. Jews have made a more earnest attempt to overcome it
It was not true so much 50-100 years ago. pre-WWII, Asian Americans did fight back much more vigourously. I think WWII changed things. Japanese-Americans got spooked big time – they really tried to avoid making waves to offend whites from the late 40s at least until the Vietnam War – raising their baby boomer kids in ways to create the least offense to WASPS. Chinese Americans went from being branded as disgusting aliens to allies against the Japanese to suspected communists. This seesaw from villain to ally to enemy agents also forced them to take a low profile.
However, WWII boosted Jewish profile. As victims of the Holocaust, they got WASP sympathy and greater tolerance. They exploited that. But greater tolerance does not mean greater acceptance. I really do not think WASP America has fully embraced its Jewish segment. If anything, they are more willing to sleep with Asian women and bear children with them than with Jewish women.
Ad regarding Kiwi’s assertion:
I agree that Jews did not climb the ranks of American society due to their whiteness, but actually despite it. OK, being closer to European might make it somewhat easier, but it is not the reason, and definitely not the main reason.
and your statement
does more to explain the similarity of outcomes between Jews in America and Chinese in SE Asia, and the difference in the outcomes between Chinese in SE Asia and in the USA than do issues of whether Chinese are more “white” or not than Jews.
ie, your point of “amassing power despite being an oppressed minority”, something that blacks and Asians in the USA have not been as successful at doing.
Chinese in the USA did indeed have this pre-60s, but their numbers were so suppressed,and their ability to form families were so suppressed, and they were not able to form families (and family enterprises) like the ones in SE Asia. Post 1968 saw Brain Drain Asians outnumbering other kinds of Asians and a new social dynamic replaced one that existed previously. Their depiction of white oppression was nothing like prior waves of Asians that came to the USA. If anything, the new generation of Asians became much more complacent and see their problems as more of assimilating with WASPs and not passing as white (like how Kiwi does) rather than succeeding by overcoming oppression.
And blacks have not been able to seize this either effectively – I am not sure it is because they went to church. Maybe going to church, however, became more a sort of opium for their pain, and detracted them from other pursuits. I am only speculating.
I can’t say it is all about being from a non-European racial background.
I completely disagree with Kiwis’ statement
There would still be major freak out. Maybe even more than having a black president (which Hollywood had already been preparing us for since the 1970s). Hollywood has not been preparing us for a Jewish or Asian president.
@Legion, re: your statement
You mean, blacks, Jews and Asians in the USA, right?
Yep, for many of the reasons you mentioned.
Yeah, generally, except perhaps unless you grew up in an East coast suburb that is split between Jews and Brain drain Asians and where WASPs are a smaller minority. The same might be true for a few West Coast Asian brain suburbs that attracted a lot of Jews (and scared WASPs off). But in 99% of the country, this does not apply.
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Kiwi said: “I think our hardcore WASP friend, biff, serves as a good case study. Although he considers Jews white, he seems ready to cast them off whenever it suits his purposes. If you criticize a “white institution” like Hollywood or the Ivy League, he’ll point to their domination by Jews as a way to somehow deflect blame from the “real whites” – like WASPs, I suppose.”
It’s not about YKW not being “real” whites. Yes, whites have mostly blended together, but the YKW have chosen not to more than most other European ethnicities. Think of “Asians”. Are they all the same? Do people from Laos and Cambodia have the same experiences as those from China and Korea? Does that mean they aren’t really “Asians”? This isn’t that hard to grasp.
As jefe said, it seems your experience with YKW is limited. I got my first real job at least partly because the interviewer mistook me for YKW. He would later joke around about how, at Harvard, each YKW had to adopt a (dumb) goy to help him graduate. He was generally a cool and funny guy, though, and I was grateful for the opportunity he gave me. jefe also presented a nuanced and interesting picture of working with YKW, though I don’t think most workplace discrimination is so open any more.
thwack, liked your last comment. You are not completely blue pill. It’s refreshing.
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Wow, Kiwi.
I’ve just learned from you that a significant part of my ancestry is not really white…. I’m part Kraut, Hun, Fritz, Heinie, etc. Even though there is actually more German blood than English blood running through the veins of American “whites”, we are not real whites.
Finally, minority status for me. Thanks!
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@Kiwi
I can agree with the 2nd half of the sentence (They form part of a broader whiteness which excludes nonwhites), but not the 1st half (They are no different from white ethnics).
I know that you are saying that that is one aspect how they are like other whites, but to suggest that that one aspect means that they are no different from other whites really glosses over everything.
Many whites argue that Asian-Americans are by and large voluntary immigrants (or descendants of them) who came to USA to get an education and integrate into American life. I have heard many say (most whites, and many blacks for that matter) that they are no different from European immigrants. But would it be correct to say that —
“Asians are no different than white ethnics in that they form part of a broader immigrant experience which excludes those whose land was taken from them or who came in chains”
Sure you can say that sentence and say it is true, but that really obscures the truth. It not only obscures what modern day Asian Americans actually experience, it also has rewritten their pre-1968 experience. However, that is, by and large, the mantra of the white liberal.
Likewise, the Jewish American experience has some unique features different from other whites, and one salient one is that they are not WASPs. It is more salient for them then it is for Italian and Polish and Irish Americans. As non-WASPs, they are tolerated by, but not accepted as WASP.
A white WASP mother will likely find it an interesting passing thought that her white son marries a Polish-American or Portuguese-American woman, mildly alarming if he marries a Korean-American or Japanese-American woman, more alarmed if she is a muslim Arab and borderline petrified if she is Jewish. Why, because in the first case, the children (and thus the family in general) would be more or less rest assured to grow up as WASPs. In the last case, very likely not.
Now, if her daughter marries a Chinese-American man, there is some trepidation that her grandchildren will not grow up as WASP and she will be forced to adapt to her daughter’s non-WASP in-laws. Still, not as alarming as if her son marries a Jewish woman.
I don’t know. Maybe if you grew up on the East Coast and lived in neighborhoods or went to schools or found yourself in workplaces where Jews outnumber Asians (or even WASPs) you would see this more clearly.
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I worked in a racially / ethnically stratified consulting firm, with WASP senior managers, Jewish middle managers and consultants, Asians in the systems department, blacks and Puerto Ricans in the mail room.
Bloody hell Jefe. I’m reading through your comment(s) but I had to pause at that sentence. Sometimes the things you bring up, experiences you’ve had, give me a grief and an ache in my soul…
I would want to murder someone if I worked in such an environment…
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@ Jefe and Kiwi
Jefe thank you for all the extra dimension you’ve added by recounting your experiences and perspective on Jews w.r.t. their place in anglo-protestant society.
Kiwi, there is not much more that Jefe and I can say (or should say?) by way of persuading you or just sharing perspective with you on the sub-topic we’ve been discussing. Perhaps whatever is of use to say has now been said. The “theory”, if you will has been drawn up. Of course after theory comes practice, i.e. actual experience with Jews.
Kiwi, I wonder if you are just exhibiting some degree of plain old stubburness. The family scenarios that Jefe talked about are so straightforward. It’s a known thing about white men and Asian women (not the Indian ones of course, yuck!! way to brown). It’s easy to see WASP in laws accepting Chinese daughter in laws over Jewish ones, for one key reason: Jews don’t give a damn about ingratiating themselves to the dominant culture, they do care about kicking ass, WASP ass included!
Jefe said :A white WASP mother will likely find it an interesting passing thought that her white son marries a Polish-American or Portuguese-American woman, mildly alarming if he marries a Korean-American or Japanese-American woman, more alarmed if she is a muslim Arab and borderline petrified if she is Jewish. Why, because in the first case, the children (and thus the family in general) would be more or less rest assured to grow up as WASPs. In the last case, very likely not. (my emphasis)
Hmm, I was holding back on something, but here goes:
Jefe is beating me to the punch on something. For me, I always have understood it as completely out of the question that a child of a Jewish mother becomes anything other than Jewish. In simpler diction: Jewish mother=Jewish kids, ALWAYS!
A woman I loved very deeply, was Jewish. She was brilliant and amazing, but that is another story. Getting back to the identity of the kids: she explained to me lovingly but firmly that if she and I had children they would be Jewish, end of story. I want to be very deliberate about that last point. It isn’t that the kids would be “raised” Jewish, that is a naive view that my lady love would have laughed at. No, it’s deeper than that: The children ARE Jewish because the mother is Jewish and that is how things are, the end!
I was very impressed that potential identity problems for our (possible) children were already taken care of in large measure. 🙂
We also discussed her “whiteness”. She explained that she is a Jew, not a white person. She knows she has fare skin but she balked at being thought of as “white”.
Of course, I won’t say she represents all Jewry but obviously what she said wasn’t strictly specific to her alone.
————————————————————————–
Alright, enough from the personal Legion files. 🙂
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*stubbornness
Abagond, could you change it please.
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(not the Indian ones of course, yuck!! way to brown).
^ People not used to my commentary will not realize that I was being sarcastic there.
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@ Kiwi
I was still a Christian at the time of my relationship with this woman.
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Legion,
I have a whole archive of personal files to add food for thought, from work, housing and education experience to a plethora of family experiences too. Kiwi forms an opinion, and then looks up some supporting data online, but it is painfully obvious that he is want of personal experience.
Another one from me:
One of my Chinese-American first cousins (who happened to grow up in the Mississippi delta and settled later in New York) married a Jewish woman and had two kids. He divorced her when the older daughter entered her teens (and the younger son was pre-school). He later married a Puerto-Rican woman and had a daughter with her). His Jewish ex-wife raised his children as Jewish in Brooklyn.
I personally know his kids. Met them when they were young in New York and both of them have met with me in Hong Kong. The son could almost pass as Asian when he was a younger (although I think he looks more “mixed” now), and most of the Asian kids gave him flack for not learning any Asian language and for not being Asian, but he always had to tell them that he was only “half” and his mother was Jewish. He had a Bris as a baby, sent to Hebrew school while growing up and had a Bar Mitzvah at the appropriate age — all the trappings of a Jewish upbringing, despite his Chinese surname and inability to hide his Asian heritage (not that he would want to). But he went to Hebrew school, not Chinese school.
Is he Jewish? Is he Chinese? Can he be both? If he is Jewish, does that somehow make him white? When his father was a young child in Mississippi, they could not attend white schools. What should that experience mean to him?
I do think that on some level, Asian Americans might be more acceptable to WASPs than even Jews. Some white WASP families might be even able to accept a daughter-in-law that was part Black than one that was part Jewish with a Jewish mother. Branding all Jews as undifferentiated white ethnics is an impossible pill to swallow.
I agree that Jews remain steadfast, sometimes even defiant, in front of WASPs. Asian-Americans, by and large, do not. I do think that “some” Asian fathers, particularly Chinese ones, do make some attempt to teach their children of non-Chinese mothers that they are still somehow Chinese, esp. their sons. (Except if that mother is Jewish.) Asian mothers married to white fathers are not so insistent on this. They are not stubbornly and defiantly Asian to their WASP in-laws, and thus more acceptable into the WASP fold than even Jews.
One of my replies to you is still in moderation – maybe check back later.
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Legion, I know this statement was for you, but I have to make a comment.
I think this says much less about whiteness of Jews, but more about the whiteness of Asians.
You see, the Jewish mother was more confident that her daughter’s children of the Asian man could be raised as Jewish. But even if the Jewish daughter raised her part-black kids as Jewish, the black experience might be so much greater as to overpower their Jewish upbringing (or so her mother fears). It just points that Jews are confident that that can ingratiate the WASP in-laws, even Chinese-American in-laws, but that defiance is still no match to completely counter America’s stereotypes about blacks.
Most of the Black -Jewish people had Jewish, fathers, no? Does anyone know any with Jewish mothers?
Kiwi, I have spent quite some time on the West Coast too and have many dozens of relatives there and even more friends there and even more time in the South as well. Not so much in the Midwest and Rocky mountain states (although I have been there several times). I still have a large amount of experience concerning Asian Americans in the West Coast, and I don’t think your experience represents all of them either. I was actually jobhunting in California before.
Anyhow, I was talking about your experience with Jews, not Asians. I don’t think you had much experience with the ones on the West Coast either (eg, the ones in LA or even the ones in Silicon valley near where you live). But it is possible that the ones you encountered in the southern Bay Area are less defiant.
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Gee, Kiwi, sometimes your logic runs just like a young kid.
Or at least stop changing everything that people say to you into something else. Try to understand what they are saying and people try to understand you.
And don’t just quote someone and say that their meaning is all screwed up because you make it into something else.
You have *some* experience with Asians and Jews in the USA. So do others. I was not talking specifically about your experiences only, but about how you frame your arguments. Your experience, albeit anecdotal and sometimes limited is a valid starting point to look at the world. But how you extrapolate that into an explanation of the actual world makes it look like that experience is limited. That’s all.
Places like Cupertino are very much part of the American experience, but that is a very unique place. Not many communities are as overwhelmingly brain drain Asian as that. But they might be a good example of what happens to a community when it transitions from majority WASP or Jewish to majority brain drain Asian.
Based on your experience, Jews are just another non-WASP ethnic, but the actual experience and history of Jews and Jews in America point to something different. Some examples were given to you about how Asian-Americans are less threatening to WASPs than Jews, or how they are less threatening to Jews than blacks. OK, there are some explanations for that. It might not simply mean that it is because Jews are just another non-WASP ethnic white.
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Using that line of logic to prove that Jews are simply “white”, if Asian-American parents do not react one or another when their kids marry whites or Asians, but get alarmed about them marrying blacks, does that mean that the Asian-American parents think and act just like white racists and that shows that they are simply “white”.
All the arguments you are proposing actually tend to support that Asian Americans are just another form of “white”, not that Jews are just simply “white” like WASPs. I guess you mean that Asian Americans are too.
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I agree that many American Jews ascribe to white racist thinking. If that was your point, then I 100% agree. Gee, so do many Asian Americans. Indeed, many blacks ascribe to white racist thinking. It is what we are all taught.
My point was
– Jews are not accepted as WASP.
– Jews are not really accepted by WASPs either. They are tolerated in many spheres, but there are some lines they have difficulty crossing, a few of which are even easier for Asian Americans to cross than Jews.
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Once you remove race from Anglo-Protestant culture aren’t American Blacks more aligned with it than even “ethnic whites” like Jews or Italians? In fact aren’t American Blacks “European” in aspects but race. Could it even be argued that they are just as European as American WASP whites?
Consider that Blacks had all aspects of their culture, language and history taken from them. And what filled the vacuum was Anglo-Protestant culture. Blacks are overwhelmingly protestant. Maybe more so than whites. And they have no other former historical religion. All they know is protestantism – unlike Italians, Jews, Asians or Mexicans. Their language is English. And it has always been English. They never revert to another previous language or speak another at home. There is no knowledge of another language,unlike the aforementioned. Their culture is English. They have known nothing else but English entertainment, English social norms, English values. They’ve learned the same syllabus of English-American- Pilgrim- WASP history and cultural geography as whites. They’ve never been taught anything else. They’ve been taught to revere European and American history the same as white kids – the exact same. In fact whites expect Blacks will look back on that history, even including the fact that many of the founders were slave owners and that Blacks will honor that history and be proud of it the same as whites – that Blacks will let bygones be bygones. Whites expect Blacks to be European Protestants – but not get the benefit of it. Whites don’t hold these expectations for Asians, Mexicans or even Jews. But Blacks don’t get that pass. You may hear a white yell the n-word at a Black but you’ll never hear one doubt a Black persons American-ness. Nobody asks a Black person where they are from and expects them to answer Nigeria. Nobody expects Blacks to be anything other than Anglo-Protestant or have any cultural connections to anything other than that.
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I realize my post above contains broad generalizations and that their are Black Catholics, Muslims etc, and that recent African immigrants may speak other languages.
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@biggiefriez
re: Black Anglo Saxon Protestant or Black Anglo Protestant (BAP)
I found that concept discussed on this blogpost (the blog purports to be from a Jewish perspective):
http://mondoweiss.net/2007/07/the-implosion-o
Some suggested that it might apply esp. to American blacks, in race in addition to culture, as most American blacks do have some Anglo-Saxon forebears. Many “ethnic” whites do not.
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@ Biggiefriez
Black Americans are not that culturally blank or passive. Otherwise there would be no such thing as hip hop or rock music. There would be no difference between a White-run church service and a Black one. Ebonics would not have tenses that Standard English does not have. There would be no Martin Luther King because Blacks and Whites would have understood and applied the American Creed the same way. Etc.
Much of African culture was stamped out to make slaves easier to control, but not all of it, as B.R. would be able to tell you at length, at least in regard to music.
Also, while most Whites might assume that Blacks are English-speaking and Protestant, many do not assume they are individuals or hard-working or moral.
The closest Blacks have come to being Xerox Anglo-Protestants would be middle-class Blacks of the early 1900s.
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biggiefriez
Once you remove race from Anglo-Protestant culture aren’t American Blacks more aligned with it than even “ethnic whites” like Jews or Italians?
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Do you mean Catholics?
I think the answer is yes; but its important to remember the Protestant reformation in England was to a certain extent composed of Catholics who wanted the freedom to act like Jews, yet still be Christian. The WASP/Jew “alliance” was and still is largely a marriage of convenance to break Catholic power.
The WASP and the Jew consider the Vatican to be a fascist organization and nonwhite people to be “tools.”
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Abagond,
I see your points and wanted to include some discussion of the the types of differences you mentioned in my post, but didn’t want to be long winded. I also don’t want imply that Blacks don’t have their own unique culture. I was merely positing, if for no other reason than that it is interesting to think about that it may be that a middle class anglo-protestant and a middle class Black protestant may have more of a shared history, culture and value system than a 2nd or even 3rd generation Italian or Ukrainian American, ebonics and race not withstanding.
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Abagond
The closest Blacks have come to being Xerox Anglo-Protestants would be middle-class Blacks of the early 1900s.
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Black people from England and the Caribbean are the closest thing I’ve found to “Afro-Saxons”; You know you met one when their first name sounds like a last name:
Male: “Wellington”
Female: “Taylor”
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Jefe,
“Some suggested that it might apply esp. to American blacks, in race in addition to culture, as most American blacks do have some Anglo-Saxon forebears. Many “ethnic” whites do not.”
Very interesting blog. A lot to think about.
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Crazy how there was an Asian exclusion act – and now conservatives describe Asians as model minorities. There is always a love then hate relationship with different groups at different times. The constant is that the U.S. loves low cost labor – just not the people who do the low cost labor.
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@Kiwi,
“I think the reason why Southeast Asians with refugee backgrounds like Vietnamese are able to economically ascend and surpass whites is maybe due to them largely retaining their cultures despite being uprooted from their homelands by war.”
You say refugee background, but who were they before they were refugees. I bet they were middle class or better by Vietnamese standards. Probably more highly educated and wealthier than the typical Vietnamese at the time. And many of these refugees were actually aided by the US government and provided assistance in settling. How many immigrants or Blacks got that benefit?
I get the sense that many Asians that move to the US were already successful and driven before they arrived. And then once here they pass those values on to their children which creates the illusion that all Asians are naturally high achieving when we know just by looking at the country’s they arrive from, that it isn’t so. They are just people like everyone else.
Asians that move to the US have to buy expensive plane tickets, get Visas, pass tests and do the kinds of things that mark them as successful before they even arrive. Or they arrive as students. But to come to the US as a student means you are driven, hard working and ready to succeed despite high costs and expenses. Either way the US is getting some real type “A” people who would have been relatively well off no matter where they lived.
Are Asians surpassing whites? Its hard to say. Whites already have it good. They’ve got all the connections. They own everything. The world is their oyster. What are they competing for, they’re already white isn’t that enough? I thought being born a white man was like getting Willy Wonka’s golden ticket.
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@biggiefriez,
I partially agree. Saying that black Americans are Black Anglo protestants and that is where they get much of their culture and even their genetic heritage IN NO WAY implies that black Americans do not have a different culture from whites, that they are the same as whites, etc. etc. etc.
Yes, different social experiences, different historical legacies, different vernacular dialect and plus some incorporation of African cultural influences creating a different and somewhat separate subculture does in no way detract from the concept or idea of most black Americans being Black American protestants with mostly WASP cultural influences.
I don’t understand why even suggesting that makes people think that someone is saying Blacks and Whites in the USA have the same culture when no one is doing that at all. Whites and Blacks practicing different cultures and social habits does not contradict the fact that much of the cultural heritage and a chunk of the ancestry is from White Anglo Protestants for BOTH sides of the equation.
For example, Hong Kong and Singapore have been highly influenced by Anglo culture, ie, WHITE Anglo culture. China is constantly bashing HK for being a running dog of the British (or Anglo West). Does that make them the cultural equivalent of White Anglo protestants? I don’t think so.
But Black Americans are educated (or brainwashed, if you prefer) by a set of ideals, values, and version of history created for them by White Anglo Protestants. They have some White Anglo ancestry. If black Americans are still in denial that, even they hold different social and cultural traditions from whites, that they are still somehow not descendant from White Anglo Protestant culture, then I think they should try living overseas in a totally non-Western environment to realize and acknowledge just how much their personal cultural influence is derived from White Anglo Protestants.
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@biggiefriez,
I think that both you and Kiwi are partially correct.
– Some of the Asian Americans, esp. more of those post 1965/1968 come from families that were at least middle or upper middle class with entrepreneurial or education backgrounds. Even some of the refugees did not come from the bottom of their former society. If they were able to retain a sense of their prior social status, then that can give them a boost in their new environment.
– for 1st and 2nd generation, sometimes beyond, retaining some cultural identity from one’s ethnic origin does help inure you from white racism. You are not 100% dependent on developing an anti-racist counter frame to deal with white racism.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/08/08/counter-frames/
As the descendants become more influenced by and adopting of White Anglo Protestant culture, they need to develop an anti-racist counter to deal with ongoing racism.
BTW, not all Asians came to the USA from the higher ranks of their prior societies. Some of the refugees were truly destitute refugees. Some of the economic migrants still come over to do cheap labour. It might not be accurate to paint them all with one brush. But even for those coming in near the bottom, the retention of prior cultural values can also help them deal with racism or discrimination in the USA, from both whites and blacks (and other Asians).
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I think that was in response to both the idea that black and white Americans have disparate cultures and Asian Americans are perpetual foreigners in the eyes of both blacks and whites. In my experience, blacks will tend to see whites as their fellow countrymen with shared (Note that I did not say SAME) culture more than their Asian American compatriots.
How about when you were in France?
Abagond gave an example that blacks and whites do not have a shared culture because of the difference between black and white church services. I would argue that despite their very stark differences, they also share many similarities — ie, they can both tick off the list for Religion above in the post, or at least most of it.
This compares with the notion that Jews are more like WASPs, than say, black Americans. But if we were to use religion as one of the indicators, I don’t think that white protestant churches are more like Jewish synagogues than black protestant churches.
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Abagond, you made a mistake when you wrote the following: “Some came because they had fought the king in the English Civil War (1642–1651) and lost.” Cromwell and the Roundheads defeated Charles II and his Cavaliers in the English civil war. Charles I was executed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Civil_War
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Catholics and Protestant whites have became more like each other. The anti-abortion and anti-birth control factions in Protestantism was unheard of until a few decades ago.
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americanasanguine
Catholics and Protestant whites have became more like each other
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Not quite. Vatican 2 allowed Catholics to act more like Protestants; now they have both become slaves to their passions;
but there are still a few holdouts:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42Lwu8E0qm0)
E. Michael Jones is the “Marvin Hagler” of Catholic apologetics.
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@ gro jo
Thanks for the correction.
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Tomislav Sunic Interviews Andrew Fraser (author of The WASP Question)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWKBYbX3yv4)
This interview is interesting because even though this Slav and this WASP are in agreement regarding the demise of the WASP; the Slav is pushing the same prescription to get Europeans to think of themselves as “white” instead of their nationalities.
And the WASP ain’t buying it.
This is a very interesting discussion because I suspect it almost never takes place. You have two guys at opposite ends of the white spectrum, a WASP and an eastern European Croat who basically need to become more like each other but can’t really admit it without undermining their own cultures which they claim is the basis for their success.
Do you see the paradox they both face?
Towards the end of the interview they almost start arguing with each other.
At several points Fraser makes the case that “white” is an unsatisfactory foundation for identity because all it means is “not black” or “nonwhite”; Sunic reluctantly agrees but immediately retorts, “but we agree we are white people right?”
This interview can be confusing to understand without a background in European religious and national history studies, but to sum up, I think the point Fraser is trying to make with his book is this:
WASPs became so good at “being white” that they lost their identity as WASPs which is really the key to their success as a people. He is coming dangerously close to claiming race is an idea and has no material foundation.
For example, is a retarded white girl really white?
Fraser and Sunic are having the discussion white people usually try to avoid having. I submit to you its the real reason all racial discussions between white people end up focused on black people. They have to focus on you as a mechanism to avoid focusing on each other; because if they do that, they will start fighting EACH OTHER.
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Jefe,
In some respects, Asian Americans are even more “white” than Jewish Americans. This is especially true in the choices that white WASP men make is selecting a wife.
In the 2010s, it might be more alarming for white WASP parents if their son marries a Jewish woman as opposed to an Asian American woman.
Currently, I doubt either choice would be much of an issue in the majority of cases, but I suspect a Jewish woman would likely be considered a more desirable choice by a small margin (Not that I am expert but I have two daughters who were raised Jewish..) Among some white protestants there is an even a bit of “jewphilia” for want of a better word.
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@UM & Kiwi,
Yeah it does seem that West Coast Jews (and possibly those in the South too) are a lot closer to identifying socially with WASPs than their East Coast counterparts. It might be attributable to a few reasons:
– Stronger control of many of the national power entities (eg, those in New York and Washington, and the other cities)
– historical stronger opposition to and from WASPs, and stronger unions with blacks.
When Jews arrived to the West coast, they probably felt less opposition from WASPs, who were much more concerned about Asians and Mexicans. Jews were perceived from the start as more white than Asians and Latinos. In the South, they were able to attend the white schools, and thus formed closer bonds to WASPs than to blacks.
The discrimination against Jews was historically higher in the East, and their anti-discrimination counter frame is also more acute.
Having said that, I think their anti-WASP counter frame is probably weakening in the Eastern half of the country too, but not nearly as much as in the West and South.
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@Kiwi,
I not sure how you define that. Do you mean how well they pass as white on a purely visual basis, or how well they pass on a social basis?
I think it is more the latter.
Of course, how well they pass on a purely visual basis will be a factor on how well they can pass on a social basis, but it is not the only factor, and not even a major factor for many of them.
First of all, passing visually is a very individual thing which can vary from person to person and day to day, and is also dependent on their behavior, dress and other visual cues. Some persons, even with both Asian parents give me such a powerful WASP image that I don’t even think of them as Asian, even looking straight at them, yet others who are not so obviously Asian looking may give me an unmistakeable poignant Asian image.
Passing socially is also more closely linked to how they self-identify, which is a better indicator of the racial role that they are playing in society, and will even impact how they are perceived by strangers (even law enforcement).
This also explains why I am more inclined to say that Mariah Carey is black, but Tiger Woods is not, even though they both are approx. 1/4 African.
“How white someone turns out” also, to me, extends to include their dating and marriage choices, as that has a greater impact on how they will be perceived socially esp. if they have kids.
I “know” that you will retort that that is not how you, little old white ladies and killer white cops see things, and while that may be *partially* correct, the reality is not nearly so black and white.
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Kiwi,
I wanted to reply to the earlier post. I think it is slowly happening to Jewish Americans, esp. those on the West Coast, who blend more in with Anglo culture. Most of them came from the East, so were already Americans when the settled the West Coast. Some undoubtedly identify first as white, then as Jewish. Jews who intermarry there might be less insistent on raising their kids as Jewish.
The same is likely also true of places like Florida and Texas.
I agree that there has been some shift in the past 30 years.
Maybe it is similar to how we still had non-Anglo ethnic European whites in the 1940s, but they were largely assimilated into Anglo society by the 1980s. Jews might take 1-2 generations since they are starting from a starting base that is less Anglo.
Since the East Coast was the first landing place of most of the Jews and many of the Jewish institutions still remain strong there, there are still more Jews that think of themselves as Jewish first, then white,, and therefore will want to apply that to their children. But maybe in a generation or two, it will look more like the West Coast too.
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Abagond can you do one on Black American Culture? Id love to see how eloquently your words would be.
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“People from Mexico, however, do not seem to be Anglo conforming. Huntington says it could wind up badly dividing the country.”
I’d say compassion for the poor is a Mexican American value. You’d have a hard time finding a Mexican American who hasn’t been poor or have close relatives who are/were poor i.e. who isn’t from a poor/working class background. This combined with what Jesus actually said in the Bible about economic status, which was that being rich or poor has nothing to do with one’s worth as a person, but that the rich have a harder time following his teachings.
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Found this hilarious Daily Show clip addressing white panic over “His Panics”:
“Democalypse 2014 – South by South Mess: Mex Tex”
http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/avy6xw/democalypse-2014—south-by-south-mess–ad-of-brothers
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[…] theological terms, secularism is an Anglo-Protestant heresy that arose on the periphery of the 18th-century British […]
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