Southern belles are young, well-to-do White women of the American South, especially during the time of slavery. They are known for their beauty, style and social graces.
The picture most Americans have of Southern belles comes from Margaret Mitchell’s “Gone With the Wind” (1936), which became the most watched Hollywood film of all time.
But her Southern belles are a romanticization.
Here is Angelina Emily Grimke, a recovering Southern belle of South Carolina, in 1837:
Multitudes of the Southern women hold men, women and children as property. They are pampered in luxury and nursed in the school of tyranny; they sway the iron rod of power, and they rob the laborer of his hire. Immortal beings tremble at their nod, and bow in abject submission at their word, and under the cowskin too often wielded by their own delicate hands. Women at the South hold their own sisters and brothers in bondage….
Can such despotism mould the character of the Southern woman to gentleness and love? or may we not fairly conclude that all that suavity, for which slaveholding ladies are so conspicuous, is in many instances the paint and the varnish of hypocrisy, the fashionable polish of a heartless superficiality?
This corruption of White moral character goes back to at least the 1780s when Thomas Jefferson wrote about it.
But freeing Black slaves in 1865 did not free White women.
In the 1880s and 1890s, White men in the South, to maintain their sense of manhood in a defeated land after the Civil War, put White women on a pedestal to defend their honour. Out of this grew the Southern belle myth, the pure white woman stereotype, the keystone of Jim Crow.
Lillian Smith of Georgia in 1949:
In the name of sacred womanhood, of purity, of preserving the home, lecherous old men and young ones … whipped up lynchings, organized Klans, burned crosses, aroused the poor and ignorant to wild excitement by an obscene, perverse imagery describing the “menace” of Negro men hiding behind every cypress waiting to rape “our” women….
We cannot forget that their culture had stripped these white mothers of profound biological rights, had ripped off their inherent dignity and made them silly statues and psychic children, stunting their capacity for understanding and enjoyment of husbands and family. It is not strange that they became vigilant guardians of a southern tradition which in guarding they often, unbeknownst to their own minds, avenged themselves on with a Medea-like hatred.
In bringing up their children to maintain that cruel White Southern tradition:
They did a thorough job of dishonoring curiosity, of making honesty seem a treasonable thing, of leaving in their children an unquenchable need to feel superior to others, to bow easily to authority, and to value power and money more dearly than human relations and love.
They did a thorough job of splitting the soul in two. They separated ideals from acts, beliefs from knowledge and turned their children sometimes into exploiters but more often into moral weaklings….
See also:
- The pure white woman stereotype
- The black brute stereotype – the flip side
- The Jezebel stereotype – the other flip side
- The birth of White racism against Blacks
- Jim Crow
- white women’s tears
I grew up in the 1950s with this kind of upbringing. It’s impossible to reconcile that ancestors on both sides of my family were slave owners. The African American maids employed by my mother when I was a child gave me the first hints that whites were wrong in their perspectives of just about everything. See http://www.justlikefamilyblog.com. At Coming to the Table http://www.comingtothetable.org whites and blacks with a family connection to slavery come together to try and heal from this national tragedy. Sitting at the table with everyone is the only way to recover from being a Southern Belles. But this work is never done because racism is so entrenched in her.
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When I was a freshmen in college, I took an African and African American studies course where I was first exposed to lynchings. I was shocked. I thought everyone would be shocked at this. I showed a picture of a lynching to My white roommate. She told me nonchalantly that they had probably raped a white woman.
I was so appalled by her statement I believe I was rendered speechless.
This was in 2005.
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Come On! The Old South was good in many ways. It was a place of courtesy, of honor, of family values. Everything today isn’t.
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^ Yes, in fact an entire Black family was values at about $600 and some spare change.
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Slavery, lynching, white capping and peonage…those were some mighty fine ways of showing courtesy, honor and family values [insert sarcasm].
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This where Paula Deen came to be i suppose. This where the mindest that she has was fostered in this culture. They even have summer camps they send their children to that keeps this garbage alive. The mindset of whiteness is a monstrosity indeed.
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I don’t know Abagond. You sound like a southern belle sympathizer in this post…, no?
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phoebeprunelle,
Sympathizer? YMMV but I don’t see that at all. I see that Abagond is explaining the origins of and debunking the romanticized imagery of the Southern Belle mythology.
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@ks,
Trust me–i re-read this post twice, but to no avail.
Abagond says the following:
But freeing Black slaves in 1865 did not free White women.
For whatever reason, this line throws me completely off.
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phoebeprunelle,
Ah I see, well that may be a bit awkward phrasing but, I think it was a bridge to show the transition of the mythology from the pre to post Civil War period. I think it’s accurate in the sense that the mythology was created to mainly benefit WM though of course there’s an indirect benefit for WW so long as they but into it which many did and will do. Overall, it’s mostly a mechanism of social control that allowed/allows WM to boost their egos, control the sexuality of WW and use as a “Trojan Horse” to justify racism.
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In the movies they are always portrayed as vain, mindless, and dramatic and self centered simpletons. I hate “Gone With The Wind”. They were always passing out with a case of the vapors. Just stupid drama queens.
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I think that if one can get past the um….noxious aura….of “Gone With The Wind”, the character of Scarlett, is probably a great representation of what Abagond is talking about in this post. The problem is that Vivien Leigh’s performance was so mesmerizing and brilliant, easily one of the best handful of performances in any movie ever, that it gets lost that it’s a really devastating portrait of the Southern Belle mythology.
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A Harris Poll from 2008 showed that after the Bible, “Gone with the Wind” is the most popular book among white women.
http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20080408005148/en/Bible-Americas-Favorite-Book-Wind#.UzbhYahuOSo
The enduring fondness for the mythology of the slave era, and the enthusiasm of the readership…I get a sense of how “colonized” white women are by white men.
It must be quite a compensation to be romanticized for being white women: so feminine. This is beauty that is not only physical. That beauty is full of charm, and gentile strength. What breeding!
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Yet, in that mythology, it is black women who are the true mother figures…
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Whenever the film was played on UK tv, I’d recall an Indian person or 2 chuckling at the funniness of an English-Indian Viv Leigh playing a Southern white woman when she was plainly mixed-race (her mother was Indian, and the family were based in India, where Vivien was born).
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Upper crust well bred southern and genteel ladies with good breeding. Who is loved and protected by her southern gentleman.
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@Felicia Furhman: I clicked on your blogsite. It looks interesting. I will check it out. I appreciate your input on this topic.
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Mary Burrell,
Yep and getting past the aura I mentioned above is indeed tough particularly the romanticized nonsense about the South’s “Noble Cause”. But, GWTW’s Scarlett was nobody’s fool. The character worked the system like a shark but to me the interesting part was that she had a fundamental conflict with the system that eventually led to her total ruin. The character loved the privileges of the system but rebelled against them as well (e.g. picking Rhett over Ashley, etc.) and spent most of the movie trying to recapture lost glory but undermining herself almost each step of the way.
If you can take a step back, it really is a blistering takedown of the mythology.
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@ks: I agree, and in hindsight came to the same conclusion that you stated. I have just always had a problem with that whole antebellum era. I know it is a part of history in regards to the American south. Your point is quite valid.
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@Bulanik,
That Harris Poll doesn’t surprise me at all. The power of mythology is strong. In one early scene in the movie, Rhett very clearly and rationally explains to a room full of “Southern gentlemen” just how stupid a war with the North would be and how it would be doomed to failure. Of course he gets seduced into the Noble Cause nonsense and off we go.
The scary thing is that it seems that a lot of people believe that GWTW is a totally faithful representation of history. In that respect, it may be one of the greatest pieces of propaganda ever.
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@Mary Burrell,
I hear you and don’t get me wrong that genre sets my teeth on edge. I was just surprised at how subversive that particular part of GWTW seemed to me when I saw it again a few years ago.
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Wow, this is a popular post
@phoebeprunelle,
Would it be easier to understand to rephrase
“But freeing Black slaves in 1865 did not free White women.”
with something like
“But the emancipation of Black slaves in 1865 did not release White southern women from the “bondage” that they had long been constricted to”?
I think the latter one is way too wordy for Abagond’s tastes. 😛
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@Solesearch
Yeah, you can see how quickly white females associate the image of the lynching of a black man with the notion that he raped a white woman. So where is it taught that
– Black men were routinely lynched for raping white women
– It was likely true that black men actually raped the white female accusers
– lynching was a just treatment for even the allegation of a rape.
and do all of that without flinching, without questioning the validity of that train of thought (by, for example, imagining the meaning of an image of a white man lynched, or an Asian lynched). That sort of thinking has already become normalized.
I dunno. Something always looked wrong to me whenever I saw the images of lynching of black men. What ran through my mind was that some white woman was upset about something and just needed to point a finger at a black man.
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jefe,
The striking thing to me about the images of blacks being lynched was the crowd gathered around the lynching. Giddy, smiling white faces of men, women and children. Chilling…. Like you, I found Solesearch’s story telling as well. 2005!? Wow.
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And people having picnic lunches with their children while some poor black soul was being executed, and made post cards of the event.
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I doubt that all incidents of black men getting lynched were held in conjunction with white picnic parties, but it only takes a few of those images to send chills through one’s spine.
Asians (esp. Chinese) and Native Americans (and a few Mexican-Americans, as well as occasional European ethnic Americans) were also lynched or massacred around 1870 – 1940. I wonder what runs through such a person’s mind when those images are presented. Also a rape of a white woman? or something else? (ie, are the images of the lynching of a black man uniquely associated with the rape of a white woman?)
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Yes, just the thought of that…eating picnic lunches.
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jefe,
Certainly not all, especially the Klan related stuff, but I wouldn’t be surprised if that at the ones at where pictures were taken, a large plurality of them were such “festive” events.
Re Asians and Native Americans, my guess would be something else. The Black Buck/Mandingo mythology was, and maybe still is, so strong in white culture as to be almost pathological. Also as you probably are aware, it seems like whereas the racist mythology around Blacks is highly sexualized, with Asians, particularly Asian men, it’s desexualized.
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With reality television being all the rage now, i am surprised they don’t have a reality show for the southern belles, if they have a summer camp for young southern white girls to attend, i don’t think that a reality show would be too far fetched. Just my thoughts today.
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Ugh. Whites (I’m white) always have some excuse. She sounds inhuman not to be powerfully disgusted by the behavior of her race. I am sickened by her response.
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I’ve come to realize, as most of you should, that judging someone with disregards to social and popular thinking of a time where alternative insights and displays were not readily available is a mistake. This should be looked at as social behavior that still lives on today. To put forth energy to blaming a person from the past is wasted effort. You have to be 1 big dummy to not considered the context of the era. This behavior in 2014 or recent is what you deserves it.
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Jefe,
“That sort of thinking has already become normalized.”
Definitely. I had never thought of my roommate as racist until that moment. It’s good that nothing ever came up missing in our room.
ks,
Ditto on the crowd. There were women, men, and children standing around the burnt, hanging body with smiles plastered on their faces.
Mary Burrell,
I was forced to watch Gone with the wind in my US history class. Our teacher informed us the civil war had nothing to do with slavery.
TeddyBearChubs, a lot of people had alternative views during this period. Especially, the black people.
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@ TeddyBearChubs
I would not erase ALL moral judgements on past events, but I think that you are right that the historical context must at least be taken I to account. it doesn’t always make it right… But it goes toward understanding why it might have been overlooked at the time.
For example, just about every male hero in history was also a rampant sexist,with many options and actions that would even fall into blatant mysogenism, judging by today’s standards.
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Solesearch,
Im sayin’ it’s okay to go back and examine this. The past affects the future. I’m saying if you want to go down the path of anger and hate, you need to direct it at examples in the present time and not the past. We people of color as well as sympathetic whites are doing nothing but depreciating our own hearts minds and souls to apply the same effort without discrepancies. It does effect your health if you continue on this path if it hasn’t already.
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TeddyBearChubs….just as pedophilia in ancient Rome must not be condemned and understood in context? Vile is vile, no matter what the era. If it was all context of era, why did ANY white freedom fighters exist? Because they recognized within the context of their OWN modern era that it was wrong. Spare me the BS.
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db, I know it’s BS. But if you approach things without considerations, it’s really you that lose. This lady was wrong, yes but you got to examine things a step further. Then one day you have to consider how your approach effects your own well-being. Abagond has a great blog, I think he needs counselors on the side to deal with grievances appropriately. The guy means well but some people don’t know how to deal with his blog.
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TeddyBearChubs,
“I’m saying if you want to go down the path of anger and hate, you need to direct it at examples in the present time and not the past.”
Why are you saying that? Is someone going down a path of anger and hate? It seems to me we are just trying to understand and deal with the hatred and anger directed at black people.
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Yes TeddyBearChubs. You alone have the power of insight that me, Abagond and many others don’t have. You alone have the white…oops, sorry, meant right view. The correct interpretation of history completely unbiased. You are “The One” and we all await the epiphanies that fall from your lips.
I don’t think Abagond is the one that needs a counselor….
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I*
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@Teddybearchubbs: I am quite confused by your post.
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TeddyBearChubs,
Simply put, the past usually informs the present. That we should either ignore it and exclusively focus on the present or contextualize it into meaninglessness, in order to conform to your off putting preaching is absurd.
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Solesearch,
“I was forced to watch Gone with the wind in my US history class. Our teacher informed us the civil war had nothing to do with slavery.”
In a HISTORY class, eh? Sad. Also, notice that thoughts like the one your teacher had are never characterized as “historical revisionism” when in fact they are? Let me guess, “States Rights” or the post-Reconstruction spin of “tariffs and taxes”? It’s amazing that a history teacher would say such nonsense when the Southern states explicitly said why they wanted to leave, in their various articles of secession, and slavery was central to their arguments.
In general though, notice how our race realist bigoted folks here try to play the Civil War? They play both sides of the fence. They defend the Southern Confederate traitors, who started a war and lost, and their descendants are still whining about it (and excusing it) 150+ years later in much the same manner your teacher did as you described above. While at the same time they outrageously try to take credit for the North’s victory by claiming their forefathers died to free the slaves! Ha!
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@ TeddyBearChubs
Because they lived in the past, their moral development was more primiitive, you mean?
They didn’t know, at all, what they were doing in the olden days — it was the 19th and 20th centuries — people did those horrible things because they lived in an era of mindlessness and they were mindless. And, because it was the times, all accountabillity is removed!
No.
All of that isn’t corrected or remedied by only taking the right attitude, not even a “spiritually advanced” one.
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All of these “men of their times” type arguments are usually deployed to try and explain away the often horrible actions of the powerful against their victims or some other sort of historical oppression. Sure context matters but it is not a blanket excuse for such actions.
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Bulanik, they in my mind are never excused or exonerated from what they did and who they were. But at the same time we live in the present. I like to go after people that want to perpetuate the mindset of these Southern Belles. They are still many that think like this and impose themselves as sociopaths.
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Burrell, some people literally just poke themselves to death with anger. There was a point last year I didn’t give a f@4k about white kids in America getting massacerd and thought about what was going on in my ancestral country in the past as well as what other people of color endured in their colonial countries including America where their kids were slaughtered and it didn’t make headlines. I was that mad just a couple months ago after years of trying to reach a neutral state.
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TeddyBearChubs,
That’s reasonable but in order to effectively combat the mindset you need to know what it is and, importantly, understand where it came from. Otherwise you are fighting a battle with one arm tied behind your back.
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this thread is trés apropos to me; I made it to Georgia! The girl at the McDonalds drive-thru this morning called me ‘honey’ 3 times between the menu and the cash register…
And they do love them some General Robert E. Lee down here; there is just about one of everything named after him: parks, roads, streets, parkways, avenues, towns, people, etc. etc.
And EVERYTHING is ‘civil war-related’ heritage, not just souvenir shops — whole towns — from the way it looks!!!
They just can’t let it go down here, I suppose it does bring in tourist dollars, but I don’t see kids pointing out the window, “daddy can we please go see yet another state park with signs talking about the battlefield from the civil war?”
It seems to be a bridge to cross, some type of way, some how…
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@TeddyBearChubs
I get what you are saying. Some of these post will get me in a mood. I think about all these transgressions and I pass by my white neighbors and don’t feel like returning their waves, sometimes. Then I do check myself. So yeah positive energy is much better than negative energy. So I read Abagond in spurts. 😉
@phoebeprunelle
I get what you are saying as well. Yet, for me it shows the root of their animosity towards their men and the dawning of the white women’s right movement in the USA.
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This post helps to realize why they like to hang on to the Confederate flag.
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I dunno I guess the whole positive vs negative energy thing a personal take. For me, knowing the accurate history and context of the events that affected and still affect black people negatively is a very positive thing. It doesn’t make me take a “path of hate” toward toward any ole white person or affect my health in a bad way. In my case, it makes me stronger not weaker.
Speaking in a similar vein, I can’t wait until the Boondocks show comes back next month.
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Consigning individual to roles of subjugation / submissiveness doesn’t stop them from finding ways — typically through superficial charm and manipulation, ie subterfuge — of getting their wants and needs met, and sometimes even leads to them becoming cruel and self-centered despots in their own right.
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This ”Southern belle” was a White woman from a White family in the South during the late 1800s to 1960s who benefitted from being a White woman in a world that elevated White beauty and Whiteness in general. Her Womanhood was protected by White males and her family from the ”savage Black men” who were out to ”rape” her. In other words, she was just a pawn used to promote a standard of beauty and procreate more White children.
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lifelearner,
“Yet, for me it shows the root of their animosity towards their men and the dawning of the white women’s right movement in the USA.”
Bingo! and in their arrogance they never saw it coming and when it did, they didn’t think it would matter.
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Looking at the pic accompanying the article the beginnings of a snarl is evidrnt on Scarlett’s lips, and there is a distinct look of contempt in her eyes — a look of hateful disdain in eyes and lips which probably mere moments before held a look of charm and ‘ladylike’ gentility ….
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*Looking at the pic accompanying the article, the beginnings of a snarl is evident on Scarlett’s lips,*
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It’s no wonder when I see a white woman I get anxious and nervous.
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What?! How long have you been seeing a White woman!?
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bulanik “I’d recall an Indian person or 2 chuckling at the funniness of an English-Indian Viv Leigh playing a Southern white woman when she was plainly mixed-race (her mother was Indian, and the family were based in India, where Vivien was born).”
I find it surprising anyone would think Vivian Leigh was “plainly mixed race” if she was even mixed at all. There’s a rumour her mother may have been part Indian. But I find it unlikely since her mother was a blue eyed redhead. At any rate, rumours suggest her mother may have been part Parsi. If true that would hardly make her mixed race as Parsi are Caucasian. In case anyone is interested, this is one of the world’s most famous Parsi.
Is it you who is “mixed race” perhaps?
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Mary Burrell writes:
“They were always passing out with a case of the vapors.”
_ _ _
I myself was thinking about those dramatic fainiting spells and “the vapors” business! Those women would sometimes be hit up with a dose of laudanum (tincture of opium) after having a spell of the vapors and would become addicted to the stuff.
When they have the vapors today, they get valium … or, with severe forms, oxycontin.
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@ Pay it Forward
I thought that one of the main causes of fainting is restricted blood flow. Corsets (particularly corsets designed to reduce the waist to 19-20 inches in circumference) restrict bloodflow. Most women in the 1800s wore tight corsets, which often led them to faint when they were overly excited.
I’m sure a lot of ‘fainting’ spells were probably attention seeking dramatics though.
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@ks Yeah I feel like waving back would be like waving back at a pile of “contempt”. But then I got to calm down and go along with being a good neighbor… Whatever that is since I’m not human to most of these people…
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wordynerdygirl,
Good point about the corsets. That would also account for how the whole fainting phenomenon got started in the first place. And yes, some women during this same era doubtlessly took advantage of the phenomenon and either ‘fainted’ purely for effect or, possibly, to delay a confrontation.
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wow. interesting. i’d wondered about the specific impact ‘white’ women have had on present-day racism.
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Yeah, you may want to really look into the whole purpose behind the white women’s lib movement.
And there is a documentary called Southern Belles that aired on PBS several years ago…about modern day white girls in high school, whom every year their parents pay upward to 10,000-50,000 for them to spend a few weeks in the summer at a camp immersing them in the past by teaching them the social mores of the South after the Civil War. The girls wear period costumes their whole time there, speak in dialects of the 1870s, are coached my mentors and teachers at the camp on how to be a southern lady and given an alternate “history” of slavery…
Besides that, there are white historians throughout the documentary speaking on the so called “oppression” of white women in the antebellum south, and from what they have concluded from white women’s journals and diaries was that this notion of the white woman as passive, docile and lacking agency is a myth.
So my question is–when will Black people stop giving white women a pass and ignoring their huge influence in the mistreatment and malignment of people of color?
I mean after all–they (white women) raise those oh so racist and oppressive white men.
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3Fss5VnP3M)
For anyone interested in some snippets of the documentary.
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GALOM3brCY)
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Thank you Bulanik!
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@Wordy,
But, there were also relatively wealthy Black women during the antebellum period who wore corsets and not much is documented by them having the “vapors” or “hysteria” caused by the wearing of corsets.
Kind of makes me go hmmmmmm…
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@ phoebeprunelle
I notice there’s a few themes running through your comments. Tell me if I’m wrong, but here’s the message I’m getting:
– the notion that white women were ever oppressed is a fallacy
– feminism is a conspiracy aimed at further entrenching white women’s power.
I would like to respectfully disagree with both of those messages, if that it your intent. Of course white women did not have to contend with the double lack of privilege that intersectionality brings. But there are thousands of historic records that show that women, pre-20th century, were oppressed and did lack agency. I’m not as familiar with American history but I have quite a bit of knowledge about women living in Victorian England and in convict era Australia that I would be happy to share.
On your other point – that there are little or no records of black women during the same era having the vapours – I can’t offer much as I don’t know the answer. But there is ample scientific evidence that constricting any woman’s waist artificially constricts breathing and bloodflow. This is partikularly the case when reducing someone’s waist to less than half its natural size.
There might be a reason why there are few records of blacm women fainting from tight lacing. This goes back to a message I see here regularly and agree with: while white women did lack agency in pre-contemporary times they were still cared for and respected by white men. So while they lacked agency compared with white men they were still privileged compared with non-white women – and this meant that unfortunately their experiences were regarded as more valid and worthy of recording.
Sorry if that was a bit long-winded.
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* particularly
**black
Apologies – one day I will post something here that doesn’t contain any typos.
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^ oh, and I don’t mean to suggest that white women should be excused for their part in slavery and the oppression of other women.
I’m only contending that white women in history have experienced misogyny and have been oppressed by white men.
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@Wordy,
You called it correctly. In any case, we will have to respectfully agree to disagree.
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@phoebeprunelle
Sure.
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wordynerdgirl,
I basically agree with your last post as I don’t think anybody is giving WW a pass as opposed to recognizing that like in most things there are nuances and layers. With that said, of course plenty of WW back then embraced their assigned lesser roles and were active participants in the oppression against Black people.
And whatever slight “pass” they may have gotten in the past should be pretty much long gone today. Especially since feminism seems to have devolved into simply a naval gazing obsession with the trivial-pet-peeves-and-class-status-and-associated-vanities-of-well-educated-upper-middle-class-white-women rather than any sort of broad inclusive equal “Sisterhood”.
The hypocrisy is often stunning like when they drone on about a hot button womens issue issue like “Equal Pay” but yet many of them think nothing of taking advantage of their class status and economically exploiting women of color by paying them peanuts to be their “nannies”.
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@ ks
You’re definitely right about the navel-gazing. I can’t bear to read Jezebel etc because of the trivial rubbish that gets currency there.
Yes, the feminist movement has become very narrow and exclusive – it’s almost as though it’s a religion with tenets that you need to sign up to become a ‘member’. Despite my little gravatar pic there are many beliefs that the mainstream feminist movement accepts that I don’t – e.g. all the ‘sex-positive’ crap. I think people like Gail Dines (author of ‘Pornland’) are the real representatives of feminism, even though Jezebel-ites would regard them as outliers.
You’re also right about white women not being able to claim any sort of pass from racism. I think white women have well and truly caught up to men in terms of choice and accountability. The only area where I think white women can validly point to continued institutional sexism is in fighting against the objectification of women in pornography and the media. Unfortunately ‘sex positive’ third wave feminists are partly to blame for this.
Anyway, I watched part of that video about the ‘Myth of the Southern Belle’. Really interesting – I’ll have to investigate more.
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I think the womens lib activist movement , coming in and stepping on what thei definition of sexual objectification is, is them crossing into personal desician territory they have no business entering …which isnt reffering to sex traficing , which should be dealt with…women have power in the porn industry , and I hardly trust these political activists to be able to define healthy sexuality
I do find the white womens movement to not be able to address the cultural needs of Afro descendent women
And as far as southern belles , even though the north is very racist, I cant relate to this south mentality at all, its like a foreign country , and I avoid the south to not run into this mentality..
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pfft…white women…fah!
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@ BR
I think they certainly have a right to an opinion on the matter and both to argue and advocate that opinion. I also think their opinions (as women) carry the weight of their own feminine experiences which should not be discounted. However, there are also many voices under the feminist umbrella and they do not all agree.
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Sondis! Short and to the point! How’s it going? Hope all is well.
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@ks,
Are we talking about late 20th century / early 21st century mythology or late 19th century?
I suppose I just have two points
– maybe we should try to find out a little more besides simply “guessing”. In the Western states in the 19th century white men encountered Native Americans and Asians much more often than they encountered blacks. They formed mythologies also to “manage” these encounters, as well as actual laws and practices. They are probably learning more about. I imagine that the lynching of Native Americans and Asians during that period was about stealing what they had and trying to get rid of them – the sexual threat to white women was probably secondary (but certainly not non-existent). I admit I am guessing to a large extent also. This needs to be examined more.
– the emasculation of Asian-American men since the 1980s is also a sexualized mythology with a sexually related purpose, and is perhaps also so strong that it is almost pathological. I am not sure that whites held the same sexualized mythology 80-150 years ago.
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@TeddyBearChubs
Oh please, Abagond did a post about that:
I really don’t think the readers are blaming a person from the past. I certainly am not. I am concerned about the present attitude of attributing it to “the times” and writing it out of TODAY’s account of the past. In others, the CURRENT practice of whitewashing history.
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ks! Its going as good it can…for a brotha. ^_^
Yeah, I’ve been keeping a low profile and keeping my comments short and to the point.
I’m studying the white man and his white female counter part.
Things are getting worse for black people. therefore the black man and his black female counter part have to be more calculated than ever before!
You with me, ks?
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@Solesearch.
I also do not see why certain commenters construe that someone is going down a path of hate and anger. Where do people get that from? I think we are really talking about white people’s fear of (black) people going down a road of hate and anger – the FEAR, not so much the hate and anger.
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sondis,
I hear you and I’m down with that. Speaking of getting worse, the economic numbers are downright scary. Certainly worse than in the lifetime of anybody posting here.
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jefe,
Good points re the Asian and Native American side of things. I have some broad knowledge but I’m not as well versed as you and a few others here and your observations ring true to me.
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ks:
“The economic numbers are downright scary.”
Scary indeed.
White people are trying to put a fright in our black asses, if the unemployment rate of black people in America is any indication of their intentions, then a fright has been, successfully accomplished!
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jefe:
“I also do not see why certain commentators construe that someone is going down a path of hate and anger. Where do people get that from? I think we are really talking about white people’s fear of (black) people going down a road of hate and anger – the FEAR, not so much the hate and anger.”
Very good point here. Although i don’t think it has more to do with white people fearing black people will be angry at them for their past deeds, than more of white people, trying to give their ancestors a pass, therefore giving them a pass. They use the, “it was the times” for this purpose.
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sondis,
Man, the net worth numbers are even worse. Our communities are in economic meltdown. Btw, do you read Black Agenda Report.com? I’ve found that over the years they’ve had the best overall domestic analysis of US and World affairs from a Black centered perspective but, fair warning, if you’re a fan of Obama, stay far away. Heh.
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ks:
“Do you read Black Agenda Report.com? I’ve found that over the years they’ve had the best overall domestic analysis of US and World affairs from a Black centered perspective.”
No, i haven’t but I’ll sneak a peek.
“if you’re a fan of Obama, stay far away.”
Nah, you got me mixed up with those whitewashed, brainwashed black people, that don’t know anything about white supremacy and how Obama is just a black face in a white space, that is simply a puppet and has no real power over the whites that choose him to be the first black president for the sole purpose of blaming him for Americas problems.
My eyes are open, unlike the masses of black people in America, so i see clearly how white supremacy works in American, politics.
Thanks for the suggestion, ks.
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sondis,
No problem! Also check out Counterpunch as well. It’s not Black centered but it’s generally excellent. Along with a couple of other sites and our modest host here, they are the few “must reads” I have on the ‘net.
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Will do, Ks..
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i called miss francine befor i left new jersey, a black woman, you know, she told me becareful down there a girl being nice doesnt always mean just that
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hvaing i t out with my white man friend here in georgia about black people and pot and stuff yea i smoke
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its different than up north
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very much
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King, no one is arging they have a right to an opinion, but, they are making sweeping generalisations about a whole industry…the sex industry is huge, and, there are people who will exploit women, but, women are in control of many situations and are better paid..an activist movement can opine all they want , but, to think that is fact when it is a sweeping generalisation, needs to be challenged.
You seem more concerned with these peoples opinion than the many other women who would disagree with them and dont want their ethic superimposed on them..their voices and point of view deserves to be heard and I brought in a link on the porn thread of a black woman who was in charge of her production company and is in charge now…she also didnt express that she was badly exploited …another person could have a very differant experiance and get exploited by some bad people, but that doesnt explain the porn industry
people love to lump exploitation and badness and naughtyness all together when it comes to the sex industry, they dont want to think that many women are large and in charge of their destinies and find some kind of economic upward mobility and ,if they are savy, some control of their business…for some people, for a woman to be in charge of her life and participate in the sex industry , makes them uncomfortable…funny how the womans movement can hold hands with far right republicans, fundimental religious groups and people who hate for woman to be independent with sex, all come together to hold hands on the subject of the sex industry
Violence against women , is one of the more important things to be aware of, and, the sex industry does not have anything to do with violence against women. There are much more important issues than the porn industry that people concerned about women should be addressing..
And, I absolutly dont trust them , or you, King, or all of the pshyciatric diologue, to really define, past hurting another person beyond concsent, and age concerns , what a healthy sexuality is…it has been truly warped and repressed any place the Judeo,Christian, Islamic ethic has reigned, and women didnt have it too well in ancient times , in many cultures, also…
Defining our sexuality is a work in progress for humanity right now, and, this subject probably should be on the porn thread, but, nerdygirl made a sweeping generalisation about womens activist movements and the sex industry, and i think its important to say you cant just generalise the whole industry…if you ask me, the music industry , or many other businesses are worse
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By the way King, you did say there are other femine opinions out there, so , my statement that you arnt concerned about their voice is not totaly acurate
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@Da Jokah
According to sources her mother was said to be of Irish and Parsi Indian ancestry, so no Bulanik was not entirely incorrect in what she said.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivien_Leigh
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Which reminds me of Doc Holliday whose distant relative wrote the book Gone with the Wind and used the family legends about Doc as a model for her Rhett Butler type and Docs real life loved one, his cousing actually, a model for the saintly woman Melanie. When Doc left for west this cousin went for monestary, which was a common practise to handle pregnant young unwed white women in the south at that time. Doc kept on writing letters to this cousin untill his death, after which the cousin, a nun by now, burned all his letters.
But guess who teached the legendary Doc Holliday to play cards? His black nanny who kept on playing cards with the boy even after he was receiving pocket money. And this black woman took that money from Doc and thus teached him the first lesson in gaming: you will always lose, sooner or later.
But that did not stop young Doc Holliday for shooting at liberated blacks at a swimming place which had been previously preserved for whites only. According the “official” version there was some kind of incident, according the legends he killed two, three or four black men, but according his uncle he shot once with a shotgun and in the air. Which is propably true since he, despite of his notoriety, had not killed but perhaps two men before the famous shoot out in Tombstone much later. And in that one he shot one man for certainty.
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What?! How long have you been seeing a White woman!?
King, I’m not seeing white women.
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@ Phoebe
Jefe and ks had it right about what I was trying to do with that transition sentence.
I am not sympathetic, but the post does heavily depend on Lillian Smith who was. Yet it is her very sympathy that gives her words power: the same words from a Black Southerner or a White Northerner could be written off as hatred and ignorance.
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@ Da Jokah
What I said was:
… which means I recalled the remarks made by other people (who were Indian). Therefore: my comment does not express my opinion, but a recollection instead.
These observations I recalled about Miss Leigh’s family background were similar to ones I also heard about Merle Oberon — another apparently white English actress, with a mother of Asian descent.
I am not sure why the hair or eye colour of Miss Leigh’s mother is worth mentioning…or Freddie Mercury’s ethnicity, for that matter.
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@ TeddyBearChubs
1. If we only cover history that does not get people upset, then we are sanitizing it and promoting ignorance.
2. If we only look at the present and not the past, we cannot understand its causes.
3. Most White people in the American South during this period believed in the political and moral ideas of Jesus and Jefferson – the same as most Black Americans today. So moral relativist arguments do not apply.
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@ BR
Please see the open thread.
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@ Da Jokah
The Older woman pictured here is also Parsi.
http://media.spokesman.com/photos/2008/09/03/r_10________________t400.jpg?fd5af0684d698ce74dd4392bafb4f89a6dc66ee3
As is the woman in this portrait.
So, pointing to arguably, “the world’s most famous Parsi,” (who happens to be light-complected) does not mean that this is the way that most Parsi look.
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I was just funin’ ya, Bro Wolf 🙂
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@ BR
I think that most people (men and women) realize that there clearly are *some* women who truly choose to work as prostitutes. But for most women around the world, when it is a choice it is a one made of perceived necessity, not of personal desire.
It is this imbalance of true freedom that many object to. Not so much to the few who are exercising true volition. The fact is that worldwide, prostitution is very closely linked with dire economic necessity and powerlessness. When it is not, it is more often the exception, than the rule.
That is why feminists often object to it – although, as I said, some do not.
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@ wordy
@ Phoebe
If I’ve understood you both correctly, it seems that:
– Phoebe takes the view that white women from this time (and place) did not experience any “oppression” based on gender — because written accounts showed them to be active and influential social beings, whereas:
– Wordy seems to say there were indicators from the (non-US) Victorian-era that show white women DID experience forms of oppression, and there’s ample evidence of that.
What strikes me is that the Southern Belle fantasy is a highly traditional and highly old-fashioned system of values and behaviour, and in keeping witht this fantasy, wouldn’t the Southern Belle be a natural ANTI-feminist?
I don’t believe anti-feminists really see “oppression”…
Modern notions of equality or diversity have no place among Southern Belles, in fact, I think girls and women who’d buy into this fantasy would spit on such ideas! I doubt if “properly bred” girls and women — according to this mythology — would concern themselves with the matters of justice or inclusion.
That would just upset the social order.
Instead, decorum, Family and maintenance of “tradition” is far more important, no matter how unequal people were in that milieu.
.
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@ Bulanik
Thanks for such an interesting and thoughtful comment. I wonder though if growing to like your cage means that you are any less imprisoned?
A bird might get to used to being cooped up but it doesn’t mean that being cooped up is natural to it.
Sorry for such a short and simple reply – working and posting at the same time! I wrote a longer comment about the objectification of women in the Open Thread.
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@ BR
Here’s my response: (https://abagond.wordpress.com/open-thread-2/#comment-225293)
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@ King, thank you.
I don’t always want to engage in discussion about subjects like that.
Genes aren’t always something that a person “wears” in the form of skin, hair or eye colour, etc., etc.
Therefore, someone of recent Indian descent, say, if they have a mother who is Indian and “looks” Indian, CAN have a child who has blue eyes and red hair.
Or vice versa.
Some people, especially white people with a narrow outlook, believe that such occurrences are impossible.
Last year in Ireland, a Roma* family (Roma are of the Indian Diaspora) had a child REMOVED by the Social Services because, in the eyes of the concerned public and Social Workers, this white skinned, blue-eyed, light-haired child COULD NOT be the biological child of definitely brown, dark-haired and dark eyed parents.
Such a child had to be abducted or kidnapped! Of course!
The child, or children, were returned to their Roma parents after DNA results showed they were indeed parents and child.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2471521/Blonde-girl-Roma-gypsy-home-Ireland.html
(Even though these particular Roma had come to Ireland from Romania, Roma people are spread over Europe.)
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@ Wordy
😀 (Also working and posting! lol)
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wordynerdygirl,
Clever metaphor with the cage imagery. I still tend to agree with you because I don’t think it’s a mutually exclusive thing. WM certainly discriminated against WW. There’s ample evidence of that BUT a good many of those WW were also racist against Blacks as well. It’s was concurrent situation and their being discriminated against doesn’t excuse their anti-black racism.
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“But, there were also relatively wealthy Black women during the antebellum period who wore corsets and not much is documented by them having the “vapors” or “hysteria” caused by the wearing of corsets.”
_ _ _
To my mind, fainting and having “the vapors” are not necessarily one and the same. A woman very well could take to her bed with a spell of the vapors without ever having fainted.The vapors seems to be catchall term for a variety of supposed female ailments stemming from so-called ‘bad humors’ or an imbalance of ‘humors’.
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@ ks
I don’t think Wordy was trying to excuse the white women’s anti-black racism…
The point I was making to her was that the girls and women who subscribe to this fantasy “Belle” were definitely strong in the way they clinged to this ultra-trad social order thing.
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@ Wordy, have added a comment on OT, in mod, though.
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@Bulanik,
Oh not at all. I was agreeing with her and I see your point as well.
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@ Wordy
Bulanik had introduced some very interesting discussion on feminism and certain unpalatable considerations for white feminist women on a thread called Silver Convention. I wanted to review the discussion some months ago. It was a chagrin to rediscover Bulanik’s comments were deleted, by request. She could always kick it off again though, if she’s of a mind too. Phoebe also found the discussion useful. It’s too bad you were not a blog participant at the time, Phoebe might have gone further in discussion with you, in the context of the Silver Convention thread.
I know, odd name for a thread, right? Well, we joked about the improbable on topic twists and turns we took on that thread. 🙂
The thread itself:
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chagrinperhaps ‘inconvenience’ is a better word choice.LikeLike
bulanik “… which means I recalled the remarks made by other people (who were Indian). Therefore: my comment does not express my opinion, but a recollection instead.”
Thanks for the clarification but I never said it did.
“I am not sure why the hair or eye colour of Miss Leigh’s mother is worth mentioning…or Freddie Mercury’s ethnicity, for that matter.”
Because blue eyes and red hair are recessive traits non native to Parsi. For Vivian’s mother to have them she would need to inherit them from both her parents. Meaning Vivian’s mother could be no more than 1/4 Parsi (and Vivian 1/8) if in fact she was Parsi at all which is merely rumour and speculation. To think someone could recognize a person who is only 1/8 Parsi is absurd. Particularly given how closely many full-blooded Parsi resemble Europeans. Indeed, it’s unlikely to recognize someone as 1/8 anything no matter what it was.
“Therefore, someone of recent Indian descent, say, if they have a mother who is Indian and “looks” Indian, CAN have a child who has blue eyes and red hair. Or vice versa.”
Only if they’re carrying recessive alleles for both red hair and blue eyes. How many Parsi of 1860’s India possessed either of those traits let alone both?
Everyone knows gypsies can carry genes for light hair and eyes. But gypsies have lived in Europe for a thousand years and are very mixed. They’re actually more European than not. So light hair and eyes among gypsies may not be standard but it’s certainly not unheard of.
Parsi, however, migrated to India a thousand years ago. They didn’t carry the genes and Indians don’t carry them either. So where would a Parsi get the gene for red hair and blue eyes to pass on to Vivian’s mother?
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@ Legion
Thanks for the link to that thread – sadly it seems as though all traces of that discussion have disappeared!
Bulanik and I are having a convo on the Open Thread though, maybe we’ll cover the same ground there.
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how is sex positive anti-feminist?
i would so respect a woman with a car and job that would want to see me sometime and you know get on with life
that’s anti-porn by definition
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@Abagond
I’m not upset with what you blogged at all. I just wish some posters went into more elaborate responses other than the usual that give the opposition ammunition and excuses.
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yes, but that does not mean they are not non-existent in Parsi or any other population. They just exist in very small proportions
I have seen “full-blooded” Han Chinese (ie, both parents and all four grandparents) with red hair and blue eyes. I have seen Indians with both Indian parents with green or bluish-grey eyes. It is rare, but does occur. In populations as large as China or India, you will find a very diverse set of genes mixed in small quantity throughout the population, especially places that have received migrations and gene flow from many directions.
And Vivian Leigh’s mother was Eurasian, making it even more likely that she is carrying a mix of genes.
Why would someone get so hung up on this and start blabbing using a totally baseless argument. It was a complete distraction from Bulanik’s argument.
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@ Jefe, thank you.
Like you, I’ve also seen families of mixed Asian and European heritage, who appear just as you describe. Sometimes, all one has to do is LOOK and THINK.
@ Da Jokah
Why do you call the Roma “gypsies”? They call themselves Roma or Romani.
That’s a bit like calling an Indian person a “Dothead”, or an Irish person a “paddy”.
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Jokah, in case you missed it:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2471521/Blonde-girl-Roma-gypsy-home-Ireland.html
http://cdn2.independent.ie/irish-news/article29696144.ece/e9b7a/ALTERNATES/h342/NWS_20131024_NEW_002
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@King,
🙂
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@jefe
“Why would someone get so hung up on this and start blabbing using a totally baseless argument. It was a complete distraction from Bulanik’s argument.”—I could take two guesses, but I will just throw out one. He seems to feel as if he needs to correct someone on something on whatever thread he can. To possibly prove he knows more.
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@Abagond
This is a very interesting post. Oddly enough it comes about just when I came across some information on the flawed understanding of the dynamics of White men and women who were slave owners. The following article made by a Black woman as a response to the movie “12 years a slave,” sidestepping the absurd proselytization that White women were equal in their victimization as Black women during the slave trade, it’s a great example of the hugely erroneous belief that White women were actually not equal in their brutality of their slaves as “the ladies of the house.”
………………………………………………
12 Years A Slave: Rage, Privilege, Black Women and White Women
Going insane was a luxury. It’s the going, that’s the treat. Going suggests travel, moving. There was no going. The madness was constant and still, sitting there, like a place on a map. It was where they lived, where they were from, born and bred into viscously mundane inescapable crazy. The women in the beautifully brutal film 12 Years A Slave were mangled and maliciously intertwined. The enslaved women lived like beasts and the “free” women behaved like savages, trapped together in a filthy cage of rape, rage and bitter resentment. A resentment so magnificent, it could freshly fester in the psyche of their daughters for centuries to come.
The twisted relationship dynamics between the two lead female characters Patsey (Lupita Nyong’o) and Mistress Epps (Sarah Paulson) in 12 Years A Slave are a horror.
A painfully vivid illustration of the dank gnarly negotiations women had to make with each other to survive the demonic conditions of American slavery. The film fearlessly exposes a suppurating historic wound between Black and White women so wicked and utterly honest, it is both repulsive and liberating to witness. The most telling scene:
We see the dark and sweet Patsey, doubly enslaved by virtue of her race and beauty, sway for a moment, let go like a girl, do a slow twirl. She is loose trying to lose herself, and she slips, for a moment, into a trance induced by the sound of her only friend Solomon’s (Chiwetel Ejiofor) sad singing violin. His is almost music. She is almost dancing. It is all almost a human moment. All of a sudden she goes limp, drops, knocked back into the terror of her life, by a heavy crystal decanter hurled at her head by Mistress Epps. All of a sudden, she is once again a battered pile of dirty black woman parts wrapped in rags down on the floor. Mistress Epps is hate, full, guided and preserved by it. Patsey, the object, the affliction. She is, in Mistress Epps molested mind, literally the mistress. Her husband Edwin Epps (Michael Fassbender) is addicted to Patsey, a deadly habit he will not kick, not for his wife, not for her dignity nor her sanity. The Mistress publicly demands Edwin rid himself and her home of the disease that is Patsey. He not only refuses his wife, he comfortably humiliates her, claiming his desire for the puddle of nasty nigger wench at their feet. The Mistress is frozen, stunned powerless by her husbands white male supremacy while Patsey is dragged away into darkness.
Patsey and the Mistress Epps personify Black and White American women’s painful slave legacy. American slavery was an insidious economic institution devised to benefit a minority of white Christian men, predicated on systemically preventing others access or the ability to establish alliances. Society has discussed how slavery successfully branded Blacks as inferior and sub-human, yet have we ever fully faced the brain washing, torture and rape terrorism practices slavery inflicted on Black and White women? 12 Years A Slave makes it evitable. The film unearths excruciating old unaddressed inquiries:
“Are white privileged women jealous because their husbands had sex and lusted after (brutally raped) black women right in their faces?”
“Are they brewing in the bitterness because their protectors wanted, the ugly nappy headed, thick lipped, dirty, ignorant field wenches, over perfumed, well-read, well-mannered, meticulously bred proper pristine Christian white women?”
“Do they believe the enslaved black women, purposefully seduced their white men, did they think they wanted to be raped?
“Are black women in the eyes of white women, the original whores, the quintessential sluts?”
A sickening set of propositions, but the institution of slavery was such a sick situation for women to be in.
An evil woman is easy to understand. Mistress Epps makes clear white women bound in slavery were far more complicated than pure evil. She is in a tumultuous rage.
A white woman’s rage: privileged with no position, positioned with no power, powerful with no promise of independence, fidelity or safety. The white woman could not properly direct her rage at her husband, she could not rail against white male supremacy. She too was in hell and Black enslaved women where the only ones in the chambers bellow her. So she sent her rage down and with her hot hate burned what was left of the bitches. And the black women scorched beyond human recognition were left in pieces scattered and buried somewhere beneath hell. The concept of hell, like slavery, was designed to control and terrorize for eternity.
The relationship between the mistress and the slave woman was so poisoned from its inception it could never be healed, they could never trust, they could never work for liberation together. Is this our original sin? Could this be at the root of why Black women were cut out of the American suffrage movement when it came time for voting rights for women? Why many white abolitionist women turned their backs on the violence against southern Blacks to secure their own right to vote? Is this deep-planted resentment what caused Frances Willard to betray Ida B. Wells? Is this wicked characterization of Black women as illiterate harlots permanently seared into the psyche of white women? Is this why the feminist movement has primarily been reserved for white women of privilege? Could this be why many white American feminists could not share power with their black comrades? Has this unresolved trauma virus infected American womens’ movements? Black and White women were both fucked by the American institution of slavery, only black women were raped, disgraced and discarded after. We have not admitted the unequal incest and it is impossible to heal from what you don’t acknowledge.
Yet once you see it, once you say it happened, the dismantling and mending can begin.
Black and White American women were doomed from the start, introduced through treacherous, asymmetric, viciously competitive, inhuman maddening circumstances. And perhaps it’s because we’ve never dealt with the underlying issues of our tragic start a hashtag like #SolidarityIsForWhiteWomen can trend in the summer of 2013.
Women’s movements can’t move in America until we have courageous honest discourse about the sadistic historic foundation of the relationship. We were systematically cultured to distrust and envy each other. We were never meant to be sisters.
I say it’s time to define, for the first time, who we are as Black and White American feminists, time to be fearless, fully equal and free for real. #SolidarityIsForAllSisters
Michaela angela Davis
……………………………………………………….
After reading a response from a Black woman on the article. . ..
…………………………………………………………
“for those of you interested in exploring this theme deeper, check out Thavolia Glymph’s Out of the House of Bondage. she tears apart the idea that white women were allies to black women on account of their womanhood and shows the deep and intense violence, anger, hatred, and torture they meted out to their domestic slaves, going against myths developed during the slaveholding years (and following them) that portrayed white slave mistresses as gentle, loving, civilized, and more sympathetic than their slaveholding husbands.
at the heart of her argument is a salient point about conducting research on women’s history: “Unfortunately, gender wielded as the primary category of historical analysis often obscures as much as it reveals of the nature of social relations between free and enslaved, white and black women in the plantation household.” in other words, you can’t just research women and call it a day. you have to look at the multiple dimensions of their relationships and recognize difference therein.
as much as we want to say that slaveholding white women were the products of their time and equally subject to patriarchy as black female slaves, there is a hierarchy of power that undoes that. (just putting this out there bc i am already seeing this theme within the comments)”
………………………………………………………….
I became rather intrigued by the book mentioned.
Out of the House of Bondage: The Transformation of the Plantation Household
by Thavolia Glymph
This book views the plantation household as a site of production where competing visions of gender were wielded as weapons in class struggles between black and white women. Mistresses were powerful beings in the hierarchy of slavery rather than powerless victims of the same patriarchal system responsible for the oppression of the enslaved. Glymph challenges popular depictions of plantation mistresses as “friends” and “allies” of slaves and sheds light on the political importance of ostensible private struggles, and on the political agendas at work in framing the domestic as private and household relations as personal
“Professor Glymph makes a powerful argument about relationships between black and white women in the slaveholding South. She explores the systematic, often brutal, use of violence by women of the planter elite against enslaved women and demolishes the idea that some form of gender solidarity trumped race and class in plantation households. This important book should find an appreciative audience among readers interested in African American, southern, women’s, and Civil War-era history.”
One review: In this well written and thoroughly researched volume, Glymph argues that the terms “public” and “private” are not accurate enough to define how the plantation household changed or to describe the gendered ideology of the South. Instead, the author contends, the management of labor became the driving force in households. Furthermore, the very nature of what constituted a household changed as the Civil War was fought and slaves were emancipated. Perhaps the greatest accomplishment of this book, though, is Glymph’s persuasive attempt to challenge the myth of the antebellum southern plantation mistress and house servant. And that is the beauty of Glymph’s work. One does feel as though they get a picture of women in the plantation household, not just white women or black women, but both.
Glymph argues early in the book that too many historians have not given a complete analysis of the plantation mistress, the power she wielded, the violence she meted out, and the role she played in enforcing slavery. As Glymph points out, it was the plantation mistress who had day-to-day contact with slaves whereas the male master may not. Because Glymph uses sources from both white and black women, it gives a fuller picture of the antebellum household. The post-war South saw white women entering the market as employers, but, Glymph argues, it was black women who had more experience in negotiating wages. Furthermore, black men and women began to use public displays such as parades and celebrations to celebrate their freedom, which unnerved white women. Perhaps the chief accomplishment of Glymph’s work is to raise questions about relationship of black and white women after emancipation and what it means in terms of freedom in the post-war South.
There are a few things to criticize about Glymph’s work. First, although important to her overall argument, the first two chapters seem very repetitive. Glymph proves that there was violence perpetrated by white mistresses, but it seems she could have done this in less pages. Second, this is really a tale of elite white women. Glymph points this out and argues that the book still has implications for the South at large, but it still makes one wonder if the elite white women represent the bulk of the South. Finally, Glymph is prone to hyperbole at times to prove her point. For example, on page 113, Glymph writes, “Adequate medical care, a luxury on the battlefield, became almost nonexistent on the home front.” One might successfully argue that medical care was better for people in the southern military than on the home front, but to use a blanket statement like “adequate” is a mistake. Medical care, especially for southern soldiers, was not very good and hundreds of thousands of men on both sides died due to disease.
These criticisms aside, Glymph has written a very original work that seems to have broken new ground and makes one consider big questions.
………………………………………………………
I will definitely be purchasing this book but I have to find the time to actually sit down and read it.
It seems you are spot on Abagond. Great post!
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Bulanik,
you have to excuse Da Jokah because he is an ignorant American who thinks that everyone who is labeled under the fake term “Caucasian” is white…
he doesn’t seem to know that in Europe, white people don’t call themselves “Caucasian” and they dam sure don’t call Indians “white”…
he is in some sort of racist “La-La” land that he, as a white American loser, can claim every non-white, non-European ethnic group in the world because they have thin noses, skinny faces, and/or loose, non-kinky hair…. Somalis have all three, I guess we can start calling them “white” since they fit the “Caucasian” category
or better yet, since many black Americans are admixed with white Europeans, they must be as “Caucasian” as Indians and Parsi, Farsi, and whatever-else-ies:
http://www.broadway.com/buzz/171866/exclusive-miss-americas-unite-as-nina-davuluri-meets-vanessa-williams-at-the-trip-to-bountiful/
here is a “Caucasian” black girl celebrating at the natural red-head festival:
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24331615
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Some little known fact on “Gone with the wind.”
In “Gone with the wind” during the scene where Vivienne Leigh is slapping that young Black woman in the face, she was actually really slapping her in the face. They shot the scene, like, 30 times, and the Black girl began screaming and begging the director for Vivienne to fake the slap because her face was in agony, but he just screamed at her and told her to shut up and that she didn’t have a say, luckily the producer (who was Jewish) was sympathetic to her as a Black girl because he had experienced anti Semitism himself, so when the Black actress said she wouldn’t scream anymore the way she was supposed to if they insisted on actually slapping her, he agreed to her terms on being allowed to “fake it” as is and always has been standard in cinema, excluding that occasion with that particular actress (Butterfly McQueen) in that particular movie. It’s unknown which take was put in the movie, but it’s a good chance that the finished version actually contains the scene where Butterfly is being assaulted by Vivienne.
Also, I remember reading that Hattie McDaniel wasn’t allowed to walk the red carpet or attend the premiere, (or something like that).
Though it’s a masterpiece in its lavish technicolour and overwrought melodrama, I find it impossible to separate the racism (extreme pro south stance) in the movie and the issues that took place during the filming. I remember when they honoured it at the Oscars a few years back, and I found myself quite offended by their praise filled speech over its glory. It’s impossible to comfortably enjoy that flick as a Black woman, for me.
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jefe,
” I think we are really talking about white people’s fear of (black) people going down a road of hate and anger – the FEAR, not so much the hate and anger.”
Yeah, just like they were telling us not to riot if the Trayvon Martin case didn’t go our way. Or how they always say Martin Luther King fought for the rights of ALL people. They live in constant fear of black people doing to them what they do to us. I don’t know if it’s because they view racism as natural and unavoidable or they think they deserve it. I’m also not sure if those are two different things.
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@Sharina
If that were indeed his goal (and I use the subjunctive here), then he’s not doing all that great then.
Sure he’s not just trollin’? He’s seems to be doing good at that.
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I don’t think so. That is “the month that never ends”.
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@Solesearch,
I think that most whites subconsciously know that something is not right. That is why so many of them live in constant fear. And that fear spreads throughout American society.
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Ebonymonre,
I feel the same way about “Birth of A Nation” which, from a technical standpoint, was one of the most groundbreaking and important films ever made but the overt, virulent racism in it is crazy.
Unfortunately, its influence extended offscreen into real life as its credited for inspiring the “second era/rebirth” of the freakin’ Klan!. Also, its inflamatory nature provoked gangs of whites to attack blacks after seeing in and, iirc, in one known instance in Indiana? a white man murdered a black teenager after seeing the film.
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@George Ryder and all
I did hear about an African History tab coming soon and I hope it does come because Black children need to be taught about their history outside of White history. Everyday is White history month in America. History books and research is all in Eurocentric viewpoints so how can a Black person truly learn their real history in this country?
BTW I don’t completely trust those Afrocentric sites either. They seem very biased to me.
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@ Adeen: Good points.
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@ George Ryder: Everyday is “White History Month”
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Interesting. I hadn’t even looked into the actual character of so-called ‘southern belles’. As usual, the story is quite a bit different from the reality.
Hypocrisy and image-consciousness seems to be built into the way most of ‘western’ society operates so I’m not surprised (Do you want me to sell you some “Iraqi Freedom” with a free sides of resource theft, social unrest, and birth defects due to depleted uranium pollution? The war operation names are always part of the opiate intended for Americans to ‘package’ the war in a form palatable to the self-image.)
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Shirley Temple’s “The Little Colonel” where little Shirley and Bojangels do their famous tap dance. I think that’s where that crazy Paula Deen got her idea to have a antebellum event, with black people tap dancing, and she is just so caught up in that fantasy that she can’t see the ugly history of this time and how painful this is for black people here in America. They are romanticizing this foolishness.I can also appreciate Lillian Smith for being brave and speaking truth to power in her time. I am sure she probably caught hell for that. And they still want to keep those damn Confederate flags.
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On subject of history books, one that I started but, regrettably, didn’t finish was “The Destruction of Black civilization” by Chancellor Williams. I can’t remember if it was that book but there was one which made me realize some of the cultural interlinkages between different African groups.
Example:
This is a headrest from Tutankhamun’s tomb
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/3675647/Tutankhamun.html
Headrests from the other end of the continent to the South
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ht/?period=10®ion=afo
And everywhere in between the design is basically the same.
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that crazy Paula Deen
😀
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@Legion: HA!
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@ks
Lol, I remember one Black guy from the US who was actually relatively young (mid 30’s) telling me he was made to watch it in school as a kid and how humiliating he found it sitting among his White classmates.
I don’t think I’ll be watching “Birth of a nation” any time soon.
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^^^ Or the book, The Island Beneath the Sea by Isabel Allende
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I am sick and tired of learning about white mythology history. That truly sucks. Otherwise, I like learning about history – including about all the people in America (including white people), even the geology, flora and fauna, etc.
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linda
When you invent claims to attribute to me it’s called a “straw man”.
“you have to excuse Da Jokah because he is an ignorant American who thinks that everyone who is labeled under the fake term “Caucasian” is white…”
I never said every caucasian was white. In fact, most caucasians aren’t.
he doesn’t seem to know that in Europe, white people don’t call themselves “Caucasian” and they dam sure don’t call Indians “white”…
I never said Indians were “white”. I said they were caucasian. And Parsi aren’t even native to India. They migrated from Iran a thousand years ago. Genetic studies conducted by Cavalli-Sforza have revealed that Iranic peoples cluster closely with European groups.
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@ Jefe
“Sure he’s not just trollin’?”—Oh but Jefe for him they are one in the same. That is just his brand of it.
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@ Kiwi
LOL. I was hoping he would better deal with his narcissistic behavior but that was only wishful thinking.
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“Da Jokah
linda, When you invent claims to attribute to me it’s called a “straw man”.”
Linda says,
So what !
______________________________________________________
“Da Jokah
I never said Indians were “white”. I said they were caucasian. And Parsi aren’t even native to India. They migrated from Iran a thousand years ago. Genetic studies conducted by Cavalli-Sforza have revealed that Iranic peoples cluster closely with European groups.
Linda says,
Again, who cares…
black Americans are closer to “white Europeans” than the average Middle Easterner or Iranian, so why don’t your claim “black” Americans too.
According to Ancestry.com, the average African American is 65 percent sub-Saharan African, 29 percent European and 2 percent Native American
you American traitor… keep hating on your black countrymen, some of who are in the military right now, doing what they have to do to protect your loser a’s from those same “Caucasian” foreigners you love so much .
the Iranians don’t want any part of you or any other white American, so keep trying to claim groups of people who want to “push your white a’s into the sea” along with the Jews —
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@ Ebonymonroe
“Lol, I remember one Black guy from the US who was actually relatively young (mid 30′s) telling me he was made to watch it in school as a kid and how humiliating he found it sitting among his White classmates.
I don’t think I’ll be watching “Birth of a nation” any time soon.”
The exact same thing happened to me too. I feel conflicted because it was an entertaining movie, but so racist! And all the white kids in my class just thought it was the best thing ever.
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Linda:
who want to “push your white a’s into the sea” along with the Jews –
I could be mistaken but I think that Jokah is jewish? I wish I could remember the thread but it seemed that there was a reason that he didnt go to blogs like stormfront.
Might have got it wrong though…
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Jokah is a jew?
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Bulanik:
I should tread with caution because I cannot remember the name of the thread but I think it was one where a Jewish female was posting some negative comments.
I am sure he will confirm it or deny it soon…
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“Omnipresent
Linda:
who want to “push your white a’s into the sea” along with the Jews –
I could be mistaken but I think that Jokah is jewish? I wish I could remember the thread but it seemed that there was a reason that he didnt go to blogs like stormfront.”
Linda says,
Omnipresent… I wasn’t trying to say that Jokah is Jewish… emphasis on “along with”… as a white American, he is not held up in high esteem either by the Iranians or other middle easterners.
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Birth of a Nation is quite lengthy, as I recall. I purchased a cassette of it sometime during the 90s but never viewed it to the end — not so much because it is offensive as much as it is a boring, silly minstrel show, with many of its lazy, shuffling and shiftless ‘Negro’ characters being portrayed by whites wearing blackface.
One scene shows a group of blacks – mostly men as I recall – gleefully and clownishly whooping it up at the prospect of gaining the right to marry and / or otherwise gain sexual access to whites.
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linda “black Americans are closer to “white Europeans” than the average Middle Easterner or Iranian,”
The genetic distance between English and Nigerian is 13.3. The genetic distance between English and Iranian is 2.2. So even a half-white mulatto would be 3X more distant than an Iranian.
For comparison, the genetic distance between Chinese and Korean is 2.1. So essentially, English and Iranian are as close as Chinese and Korean.
“you American traitor… keep hating on your black countrymen, some of who are in the military right now, doing what they have to do to protect your loser a’s from those same “Caucasian” foreigners you love so much .”
You mad?
“the Iranians don’t want any part of you or any other white American, so keep trying to claim groups of people who want to “push your white a’s into the sea” along with the Jews –”
Wishful thinking on your part. National politics aside, Jews and Iranians get along just fine with other white Americans and vice versa. Why wouldn’t they?
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Oh, I still love the “moonlight & magnolias” image of the Old South. I know it was far from perfect, but that image of antebellum gentility has a poetic quality.
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Those are some Interesting observations Da Jokah.
In the situation as follows, whom do you suppose an Englishman might be genetically more related to, his own son who happens to be half Nigerian … or to some random and otherwise unrelated Iranian person?
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Sorry Linda that you have to endure such nonsense from a commenter who obviously completely missed your point, eg, using dubious DNA statistics comparing ethnic English and Nigerian (from undetermined ethnic groups) as a proxy for white and Black Americans.
Blacks and Whites in the USA basically share the same set of ancestors, esp. in the South (which had less post-civil war European immigration). The Whites are part African and the blacks are considerably European and both have small amounts of Native American. I bet if you went to towns like Wilson or Goldsboro, NC, or Beaufort, SC, you would not have to go back too many generations before finding common ancestors between the blacks and whites. But, you would even find it in New York City and Chicago (esp. since that is where many of the blacks went to escape and pass as white). I once read a study of a county in Georgia where they compared the DNA of both blacks and whites in the county, and concluded that they could not statistically prove that they were separate breeding populations since their ancestral genes had been mixed into both sides in relatively recent generations.
I think blacks know they share common ancestors with whites, but whites find all sorts of spurious arguments to point out “their genetic distance”. Oh, Pleez.
They are not only American traitors, they are also ostracizing their own blood relative cousins. And since about 30% of white Americans are part African (from post-Columbian migration), what kind of cognitive dissonance does that require for them to live with themselves?
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Birth of A Nation is truly evocative of that era of the antebellum south. Those ugly images go with hoop skirts, mint juleps and antebellum plantations, and weeping willows. Yes, “Birth of A Nation ” belongs in there with “GOne With The Wind.”
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pay it forward
As surprising as some may find it, the Englishman would be more closely related to the random and otherwise unrelated Iranian than his own mulatto son.
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jefe
“I think blacks know they share common ancestors with whites, but whites find all sorts of spurious arguments to point out “their genetic distance”. Oh, Pleez. “
If you do the math on the midpoints — 3.5% of individuals times 2.75% ancestry — you get just under 0.1% as the best guesstimate of self-identified white Americans’ black genes. That’s extraordinarily negligible. I’m shocked by what a small number less than 1/1,000 is.
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“Wishful thinking on your part. National politics aside, Jews and Iranians get along just fine with other white Americans and vice versa. Why wouldn’t they?”–Actually that is pretty much wishful thinking on your part (politics aside). From what I have read they don’t care anymore about white Americans than the next and visa versa. On the American side it really boils down to them concluding them to be terriorist.
As to your genetic test, pretty weak source and I am quite curious on why you presented a chart and not the full source. Could it be a regular game of half truths.
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@Da Jokah,
Are you jewish? If not, what is you ethnicity and religious affiliation? Also, why do you read this blog and post comments here so much?
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For those interested here is the full study he presented. It clrarly states that the sample size does not represent African ancestory across America as this id only based on what is in their database. http://blog.23andme.com/ancestry/our-hidden-african-ancestry/
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Which just goes to show how idiotic and arbitrary the ideas of “race” and “genetic distance” are.
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@Sharina,
I agree that the use of the chart and article that he found was a very weak, if not spurious use of data to prove his point. For one thing, the 78,000 sample size was a self-selected group of people who firmly believed that they were purely of European descent.
– This would include people who immigrated from Europe, whose parents did or whose grandparents did. The more recent the white person’s ancestors can be traced to Europe, the less likely they would have African admixture.
– It excludes all the white people who know, or suspect, that they have some African ancestry. I have met many white people who knew that they had a grandparent or something that was part black, or at least suspected it. For example, Bliss Broyard identifies as a white person, yet knows that she is 17% black.
Also, the most spurious part of the argument was the pure focus on the African ancestry of whites. I said that blacks and whites shared ancestry – not all of it, and most probably most of it will not be African. If there is a large spike of black Americans with 20-25% European ancestry, most of that shared ancestry will be European. A small percentage of it will be Native American (and perhaps a smaller, but increasing % Asian).
I still stand by my claim that if the white person can trace all or most of his ancestry in the USA to before the Civil war, the more likely that person will share ancestry with black Americans. That ancestry could be African, European, Native American or other.
My maternal Grandmother told me that her paternal grandmother was “Black Dutch”. For those people from southern Appalachia, that is a code word for Melungeon or something similar (other tri-racial). People who still identify as Melungeon can be found to be part African, esp. on their paternal side. That is why I also suspect that I have some African ancestry (probably in the 1/64 range or so). The ancestors on my maternal grandmother’s side entered the US before the civil war, and some entered before the revolutionary war. But even more likely, I will share some European ancestry with some black Americans.
Barack Obama, Jr. has African-American slave ancestry, but through his mother’s side.
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So are we led to believe that we are more related to completely unrelated strangers with distant ethnic origins than we are to our own parents, siblings and children?
That is so much nonsense.
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On the subject of the beauty of the antebellum period, my mum’s got these Royal Doulton figurines she inherited from her mother. As beautiful as they are, I shudder when I go to admire them, as I can’t help but think about the time period.
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Ebonymonroe
I have always felt the southern belle ambiance was simply a way to hide the horrors behind the scene. pay no attention to the half beaten negro or my brother raping… sorry mingling with the maids. We are all one big happy family. (Classic southern belle faint spell).
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Linda says,
LOLLL, who cares ! what a sorry “non-answer”….
DaJokah, I would call you a stoopid “half-wit” but even saying that you have “half” a brain is giving you too much credit…. you are a complete id’ot!
Why don’t you stick to the subject… I wasn’t talking about Africans as you well know … Nigerians aren’t black Americans and don’t share the same history in America, dumba’s
why don’t you want to give love to your “black American” cousins, Da Jokah….your white American ancestors already took the time to rob them by not acknowledging their half-white sons and daughters.
but at the end of the day, the Iranians and Middle easterners still Hate your dum white American a’s… so keep trying to claim people who don’t like you.
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jefe
“So are we led to believe that we are more related to completely unrelated strangers with distant ethnic origins than we are to our own parents, siblings and children?”
Absolutely. Look at it this way. Humans and chimps share 98.8% of their DNA. Humans share 99.9% of their DNA. Now let’s suppose a human and a a chimpanzee reproduced. The humanzee sprog would share half it’s DNA with it’s human parent and the other half with the chimp.
(100% x 0.5) + (98.8% x 0.5) = 99.4% human
So the human parent would share 99.4% of it’s DNA with it’s hybrid offspring but 99.9% with other humans. The numbers would be a little closer with humans. But a parent would still share more DNA with a stranger of the same race than their own biracial child.
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anne Are you jewish? If not, what is you ethnicity and religious affiliation? Also, why do you read this blog and post comments here so much?
Thank you for asking. But the details of my life are quite inconsequential. I try to spend a few minutes on this blog every day because I read a study that said laughter would lower my blood pressure.
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“Sharina
For those interested here is the full study he presented. It clrarly states that the sample size does not represent African ancestory across America as this id only based on what is in their database.”
Linda says,
Sharina, thanks for the full post…
but it shouldn’t even matter because the racist windbag Da Jokah, was once again, attempted to move the goal post by discussing African ancestry in white people — that was NOT the topic– he didn’t address the fact that many black Americans have white European ancestry, just like he does —
but he would rather claim a group of “un-related” foreigners that would rejoice at the downfall of the USA…one more reason why da Jokah sucks and is a white racist Loser.
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Where did you get that from the Sears catalogue?
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OMG, comparing infeasible interspecies hybrids to intraspecies interethnic humans, then using incorrect math to back it up. What a trip!
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Jefe wrote:
“OMG, comparing infeasible interspecies hybrids to intraspecies interethnic humans, then using incorrect math to back it up. What a trip!”
_ _ _
LOL!
Yeah, but it gave me the giggles so it was worth a little something.
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Not much time, but I feel the intense need to point out that, by your reasoning, Da Jokah, one so-called “Caucaoid” individual is pretty much genetically indistinguishable from all other Caucasoids. How, pray tell, if this is the case, are paternity / maternity tests even possible, and what accounts for one Caucasoid displaying fiery red hair, freckled skin and a fat, round body, while his nearly interchangeable genetic twin is tall, slender and deeply brown-skinned with black curly hair and an aquiline nose?
The truth is DNA tests would show the close to 100% chance that the Englishman is not just related to the the half-Nigerian boy in question, but that he is likely the child’s father, and that neither the Englishman nor his son is a close relative of the Iranian.
I and my non-Black “DNA cousins” – and there are hundreds of them, it seems – share some of the same markers, not just “similar” but the exact same markers. Therein lies the difference.
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@DaJokah,
Not answering a question is the easiest way to answer it. Thanks for being so transparent.
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@Sharina
I feel the same; that period is pretty much projected as ideal and heavily romanticised.
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another hit ,guess ya should never say nothing bad about white females,
as usual abagond does a first rate job of deconstructing american culture.
I never was interested “Gone With the Wind” and Now even less so.
that this film is still so popular esp with white females is much evidence of how sick most still are,and the exceptions are eternally smeared…
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@ Da jokah
you are correct. Laughter does help to lower the blood pressure, which is why I take a few minutes out of my day to see what new brand of stupidity you will display. I thank you in your efforts to ensure I live a long life with low blood pressure.
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Or if you do, be prepared to be schooled about how oppression from white males have made them do bad things to others…
it is as if the way racism is deconstructed, you would believe that only white men are responsible.
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jefe
I was trying to make it easier for you to understand. But the math doesn’t change whether one is dealing with different species or different subspecies. You’re really in denial on this one. Do you have a personal interest in this? Are you mixed?
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pay it forward “The truth is DNA tests would show the close to 100% chance that the Englishman is not just related to the the half-Nigerian boy in question, but that he is likely the child’s father, and that neither the Englishman nor his son is a close relative of the Iranian.”
A person inherits one chromosomes from each parent. Every chromosome contains mutations unique to itself and these mutations are cumulative / inherited. Therefore, a DNA test would still identify the unique mutations on the chromosomes inherited from each parent. So it could be used to establish paternity or maternity. This would also make the sprog slightly more related to each parent than to a random stranger of their parent’s race. But the genetic distance between the sprog and its parents would still be enormous because the other parent’s chromosome would be so different. When you averaged the two chromosomes, both parents would still be more related to a random stranger of their own race than to their halfbreed sprog.
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kiwi
“You can find more genetic differences between members of the same race than between members of different races.”
I believe the claim you were trying to make is that the majority of the genetic differences found between races are also found within races. Even if true, my earlier response about a parent being more genetically similar to a stranger of their own race than their own mixed race child would still be true. But your claim actually isn’t true and it’s known as “Lewontin’s Fallacy”.
The argument was first made by Richard Lewontin in his 1972 article The Apportionment of Human Diversity. He got it from a presentation AWF Edwards and Cavalli-Sforza had already given at the 1963 International Congress of Genetics using very similar data and contrasting analysis. In other words, Lewontin’s argument had been debunked nearly 10 years before he even made it. And he knew it, too, since he was sitting in the audience when they gave the presentation.
AWF Edwards subsequently wrote another paper called Human Genetic Diversity: Lewontin’s Fallacy in which he not only debunked Lewontin’s work specifically but claimed Lewontin made his argument for “social reasons”. In addition to the original paper by Edwards and Cavalli-Sforza (1963) and Edwards (2003) there are several other papers debunking Lewontin’s fallacy including Pearse & Crandall (2004), Mountain & Risch (2004) and Long & Kittles (2009).
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“If race were genetic, one should be able to easily name which genes constitute a specific race, but no one can. Again, that’s because the concept of race is socially and politically motivated.”
Actually, several researchers already have. It kind of ties into Lewontin’s Fallacy.
Paschou et al. (2010) found “essentially perfect” agreement between 51 self-identified populations and the population’s genetic structure.
Tang et al (2005) found “nearly perfect correspondence between genetic cluster and SIRE for major ethnic groups living in the United States, with a discrepancy rate of only 0.14 percent”
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Can someone explain the connection between interspecies hybrids and Southern Belles? Does it have to do with the frequency of the alleles for blue eyes in the ethnic Parsi Indian population?
Geez.
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@jefe
I have just learned to sit back and laugh at the interesting maneuvers of goal post moving and deflection currently displayed by Da Jokah.
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Interesting Lewontin’s Fallacy is brought up with a failure to mention the following.
“Numerous later studies have confirmed his findings.[5] Based on this analysis, Lewontin concluded, “Since such racial classification is now seen to be of virtually no genetic or taxonomic significance either, no justification can be offered for its continuance.”
And
“Philosophers Jonathan Kaplan and Rasmus Winther have argued that while Edwards’s argument is correct it does not invalidate Lewontin’s original argument, because racial groups being genetically distinct on average does not mean that racial groups are the most basic biological divisions of the world’s population. Nor does it mean that races are not social constructs as is the prevailing view among anthropologists and social scientists, because the particular genetic differences that correspond to races only become salient when racial categories take on social importance. From this sociological perspective, Edwards and Lewontin are therefore both correct.[13][14][15]
Similarly, biological anthropologist Jonathan Marks agrees with Edwards that correlations between geographical areas and genetics obviously exist in human populations, but goes on to note that “What is unclear is what this has to do with ‘race’ as that term has been used through much in the twentieth century – the mere fact that we can find groups to be different and can reliably allot people to them is trivial. Again, the point of the theory of race was to discover large clusters of people that are principally homogeneous within and heterogeneous between, contrasting groups. Lewontin’s analysis shows that such groups do not exist in the human species, and Edwards’ critique does not contradict that interpretation.”
Heaven forbid I forget to add this:
“Witherspoon et al. conclude that, “Since an individual’s geographic ancestry can often be inferred from his or her genetic makeup, knowledge of one’s population of origin should allow some inferences about individual genotypes. To the extent that phenotypically important genetic variation resembles the variation studied here, we may extrapolate from genotypic to phenotypic patterns. […] However, the typical frequencies of alleles responsible for common complex diseases remain unknown. The fact that, given enough genetic data, individuals can be correctly assigned to their populations of origin is compatible with the observation that most human genetic variation is found within populations, not between them. It is also compatible with our finding that, even when the most distinct populations are considered and hundreds of loci are used, individuals are frequently more similar to members of other populations than to members of their own population. Thus, caution should be used when using geographic or genetic ancestry to make inferences about individual phenotypes”,[20] and warn that, “A final complication arises when racial classifications are used as proxies for geographic ancestry. Although many concepts of race are correlated with geographic ancestry, the two are not interchangeable, and relying on racial classifications will reduce predictive power still further.”
So It depends on who you ask.
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forgot source
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewontin%27s_Fallacy
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@Ebonymonroe
Odd as it might be. Some of those same attitudes are still very prevalent in the south. Southern belle attire may have changed but the attitudes run in the blood.
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That whole stereotype is everywhere, it’s essentially “the pure White woman stereotype” juxtaposed against every “other woman.” I can’t see that going anywhere anytime soon
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Humans have over 24,000 genes. So I doubt intelligence has anything to do with whether I’m willing to take the time to list them all. Nor is there any need when I’ve already cited two studies that show “essentially perfect” and “nearly perfect” agreement between race and genetic structure/cluster.
There is, however, a team of geneticists working specifically on your question.
You may find one of their discoveries of particular interest.
It’s fascinating to think that a single mutation on a single gene could have such a dramatic affect on so many different things.
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kiwi
“From your article, you’re basically saying 30% of Japanese are not Asian. LOL!”
Japanese migrated to an island chain for which the indigenous population predates the spread of this gene. So it’s not surprising they have a lower percentage. Regardless, a characteristically asian gene doesn’t imply that every asian has it. There are about 140 of these uniquely Asian genes identified so far. I wouldn’t expect every Asian to possess all of them. After all, there’s still genetic diversity even within a race. Still most asians probably possess many of them and that’s what makes them asian. Your claiming otherwise shows you still don’t understand Lewontin’s Fallacy.
“If race were not socially constructed, you’d be able to say exactly how many there are, but you can’t.”
Why do you deny something I’ve already done? Dr Sabeti’s group has already listed hundreds of individual genes that are unique to each. Of course, this is nowhere near listing the enormous number of unique combinations and frequencies specific to each population. So even if a particular gene were present in more than one population it may still be used in a uniquely co-evolved gene complex. Genes don’t work in isolation after all. But that’s beyond the scope of this discussion and I don’t want to go any more over your head than I already have. I apologize for wasting your time as well. I should have realized you weren’t up to it.
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@ Kiwi
I found this segment extremely funny.
“Your claiming otherwise shows you still don’t understand Lewontin’s Fallacy.”
Yet it was he who brought this up and concluded that you tried to argue it. LOL
I even love the part where he says “I don’t want to go any more over your head than I already have.” Especially when he has basically side stepped what you are asking with long winded explanations about everything else.
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@ Ebonymonroe,
Thanks for the Angela Michela Davis quote above. Her opinion is well stated and thoughtful.
In reading the reply comment to her you posted, I’m wondering where some folks get the notion that there are ideas “out there” that WW were allies to, or suffered as much as, BW back then when the historical records clearly show otherwise. That strikes me as an argumentation trick or a buildup of a false strawman premise that one proceeds to knockdown.
I think there are two main realities when it comes to this point. One, is that while WW and BW both suffered under the system of slavery, they ceratinly did not suffer equally as BW had it much worse often at the hands of WW. Saying the former (that both suffered) doesn’t invalidate the latter (BW suffered much worse).
Two, is that the entire system itself was an awful evil lie that , despite all of the protest to the contrary from the usual suspects, the US still hasn’t really recovered from yet.
All of the mythology – the genteel benevolent master, the delicate flower southern belle mistress, the happy dancing and singing slaves, everybody just gettin’ along and so on – was a lie. From start to finish, the system was held together through brutal force and oppression on all levels of society (e.g. legal, political, economic, social, physical).
That that sort of mythology still has an aura for far too many today from the Duck Dynasty guy to generic WW engaing in Rhett Butler fantasies speaks to one of the big flaws in American society. We don’t dwell on or learn from the past. We either ignore it or romanticize it to make ourselves feel better. As such, we repeat it in different forms over and over again.
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