While it is still fresh in my mind, here are some notes from Lena Horne’s account of the meeting between James Baldwin and Robert Kennedy in 1963 in New York. She wrote about it in her 1965 biography. So did James Gavin in his 2009 biography of her.
The meeting did not start off well: Blacks sat on one side, Whites on the other (except for Rip Torn, a friend of Baldwin’s).
Kenneth Clark ran down the numbers of how bad it was for Blacks. Robert Kennedy, Attorney General and brother of the president, countered with all the things his brother had done for Blacks. While it was more than any president since Lincoln, it was too piecemeal. This was just weeks after the Birmingham protests, where police chief Bull Connor turned fire hoses and dogs on children.
Robert Kennedy acted like someone from a suddenly famous family. He seemed insensitive, expected gratitude. She was surprised at how little he understood what Blacks were going through. It seems he had not even read Baldwin or talked to anyone who had – why else would he compare being Black American to being Irish American, like it was pretty much the same thing?
Then Jerome Smith spoke. He was a civil rights worker with CORE, then in New York to see doctors about head and jaw injuries he received from racial violence in the South. Horne said he:
just put it like it was. He communicated the plain, basic suffering of being a Negro. … You could not encompass his anger, his fury, with a set of statistics.
Talking numbers and policy no longer seemed enough. Kennedy tried to shut Smith down. Blacks closed ranks behind Smith. After that the meeting became too divided and never recovered.
Rip Torn understood both sides and could have built a bridge, but all he talked about was his upbringing in racist small-town Texas, of his personal awakening. No one was in the mood to hear that stuff.
Kennedy would later complain that they did not understand how much his brother had done for Blacks. Horne says they did understand – otherwise they would not have shown up in the first place, would not have felt he was someone who would listen.
The meeting was a turning point for her: after that she took part in the civil rights movement, did whatever she could. She sang at a rally for Medgar Evers not long before he was killed – and found herself on the “Today” show on national television the morning after his death!
She felt like a figure from another age, a White man’s token – even though Hollywood had blacklisted her for her civil rights views and friendship with Paul Robeson.
Horne’s husband, Lennie Hayton, was White. Three weeks before the meeting they both saw the Birmingham protests on television. He seemed indifferent. Bull Connor’s shameless, terroristic violence against Black children did not move him. Apparently, he was so determinedly one of those race-doesn’t-matter White people that he could not see what the big deal was.
– Abagond, 2014.
See also:
I know he was from Boston and 120 yrs earlier the Irish were segregated from whites. But he should have realized that by the 1960s they had become white.
All he had to do was go across the river to the pentagon and find it segregated. Schools in maryland had not even been desegregated 9 yrs after board v brown.
of course this is nothing like alabama or mississippi. I suppose he thought given enough time, negroes too would become white.
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Thank you for “true” stories!
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Robert Kennedy’s indifference to what was being presented to him, reminds me of some of the white commenters who come on this blog and say that racism doesn’t exist in 2014, now that we have a black president. It’s the same kind of indifference that Lena Horne’s white husband showed while they were watching television and witnessing the hatefulness and brutality of Bull Connor against those black children. Did Ms. Horne wonder what kind of man she was married too, that he showed the same indifference and apathy that RFK showed them when they were in that meeting? This was an eye opening post. I was so ignorant about RFK. I always thought they were championing for the justice of black people in America, during the civil rights era. I was so wrong. But this has been insightful and eye opening. Thanks for this.
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I suppose Kennedy coming from a priviledged upbringing just was clueless about the plight of black Americans and he just was clueless. I guess his mindset was, damn, what more do you people want? My brother has done more for the cause of (negroes) that was the word then among other things, than any other president. I think he felt that the group was ungreatful for the things his brother JFK did. I remember from the previous post thread Abagond did on the Baldwin-Kennedy meeting, Lorraine Hansberry spoke up and noticed how obtuse RFK was being. There is a lot to learn just reading about this account. All black people and whites for that matter if they care should read about this and learn.
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One more thought on this, here was some of the most accomplished black Americans in RFK’s presence and he didn’t take what they were saying serious, that’s just tragic.
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“She felt like a figure from another age, a white man’s token.” I am sure just like Dorothy Dandridge, Lena Horne was fetishized by white men, just like she was the object of desire of black men during that time.
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How typical of him to reject statistics, facts and reality itself in favor of his own racialized prejudices of negro as perpetual victim. It’s a constant on this blog.
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mary I suppose Kennedy coming from a priviledged upbringing just was clueless about the plight of black Americans and he just was clueless.
That’s definitely true of many white so-called ‘anti-racists’. If their privileged middle class upbringing hadn’t sheltered them from living and being around large numbers of blacks they’d realize black under-performance was largely a result of their own misbehavior and limited ability rather than some racial bogeyman.
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“You could not encompass his anger, his fury, with a set of statistics.”
That right there is the whole point to why statistics should not be a factor when it comes to issues like this. A lot of people use statistics as a tactic to show that any kind of black suffering means little to nothing as opposed to what “outside views” think should be what blacks out to concentrate on. In their minds, blacks are their own problem for being black in the first place.
Those same people also don’t think that black people truly suffer or experience pain in general. The statistics ploy is another card they play due to them unwilling to see the humanity in black people.
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“Those same people also don’t think that black people truly suffer or experience pain in general.”
On the contrary, life is hard. It’s even harder when you’re stupid. In addition to the hardships stupid people cause themselves they’re also subjected to the hardships of their fellow stupid people.
The statistics ploy is another card they play due to them unwilling to see the humanity in black people.
Calling something a “ploy” is an easy way to dismiss something one doesn’t like. There’s no need for you to consider statistics, facts or reality itself. Just call it a “ploy” and retreat back into your own “personal experience” aka prejudiced delusions.
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Da Jokah
“It’s even harder when you’re stupid.”—It must have been hard for you to bring your perspective to the table.
” retreat back into your own “personal experience” aka prejudiced delusions.”—You do it so what is the harm in others doing it. This pot calling the kettle black skit of yours is getting old. Would you mind trying something new?
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For someone with such disdain for black people, Da Jokah just can’t seem to help himself from coming around here to stink up the place with is bitter dismissive nonsense lol!
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On the contrary, life is hard. It’s even harder when you’re stupid. In addition to the hardships stupid people cause themselves they’re also subjected to the hardships of their fellow stupid people.
Jokah, aside from my suspicion of you calling black people stupid, and never going to clarify it seeing as that’s how you roll, what makes you think those whom you consider “smart” don’t cause suffering, their own and everyone else’s?
Calling something a “ploy” is an easy way to dismiss something one doesn’t like. There’s no need for you to consider statistics, facts or reality itself. Just call it a “ploy” and retreat back into your own “personal experience” aka prejudiced delusions.
Why should it be liked in the first place? Besides, isn’t that what you do here on a usual basis, dismiss what you don’t like as you constantly comment on a blog whose moderator is part of a people who, as you constantly say, committing the most crimes?
And you have yet to explain why this is so. Although, you do leave hints to suggest that you think black people are stupid and paranoid based on nothing substantial. Sometimes you even derail. Isn’t it funny how you throw around the word stupid and yet, you can barely stay on topic? LOL
Whatever you learn about blacks, obviously came from the wrong sources a.k.a. angry white guys.
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brothawolf “aside from my suspicion of you calling black people stupid, and never going to clarify it seeing as that’s how you roll,”
Not at all. Smart blacks do quite well. Dumb whites don’t. It has nothing to do with color other than ability not being distributed equally.
“what makes you think those whom you consider “smart” don’t cause suffering, their own and everyone else’s?”
Good question. Even smart people do dumb things occasionally. But they do less dumb things.
“Why should it be liked in the first place?”
I never said it should. But not liking something doesn’t keep it from being true.
“Besides, isn’t that what you do here on a usual basis, dismiss what you don’t like as you constantly comment on a blog whose moderator is part of a people who, as you constantly say, committing the most crimes? “
I don’t like criminality at all. It is what it is.
“Whatever you learn about blacks, obviously came from the wrong sources a.k.a. angry white guys.”
No. What I learned came from both experience and evidence which support one another. That’s why my opinions have a great deal of confidence. Your opinions, however, fly in the face of the evidence. That’s not good.
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The more I learn about this meeting, the more it intrigues me. What a fascinating character study. And yet, it’s something I think many of us continue to experience on a daily basis — us saying one thing, them hearing another. It’s news, but it’s not. Have times really changed that much?
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Kiwi
Yea but why does he constantly have to remind us how stupid he is?
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“No. What I learned came from both experience and evidence which support one another. “—I have two things to say to this.
1. Confirmation bias.
2. Evidence=opinion editorials
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Everyone has set forth with Jokah, I think I’ss have a go, wheeeee!!!
Not at all. Smart blacks do quite well. Dumb whites don’t. It has nothing to do with color other than ability not being distributed equally.
Answer me this; how do explain stupid people who do well despite their colour?
Good question. Even smart people do dumb things occasionally. But they do less dumb things.
How do you explain smart people who constantly do stupid things? I am thinking of some of thse serial killers for example. Many of them were geniuses!
I never said it should. But not liking something doesn’t keep it from being true.
I agree. I read things I don’t like in the National Inquirer all the time that I don’t like and they are all true!
I don’t like criminality at all. It is what it is.
I am sure you detest all those criminals on Wall Street then? How about fashion crimes?
No. What I learned came from both experience and evidence which support one another. That’s why my opinions have a great deal of confidence. Your opinions, however, fly in the face of the evidence. That’s not good.
Who’d have thunk that being hung like a hamster would bring out such vitriol?
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Not at all. Smart blacks do quite well. Dumb whites don’t. It has nothing to do with color other than ability not being distributed equally.
So, being intelligent equals success while not being intelligent equals failure?
Good question. Even smart people do dumb things occasionally. But they do less dumb things.
So, smart people can do stupid things, but not as much as dumb people. What qualifies as smart and stupid?
I never said it should. But not liking something doesn’t keep it from being true.
Yet, you expect us to agree with you when you continuously use to the ‘blacks commit the most crimes’ catchphrase without an explanation.
I don’t like criminality at all. It is what it is.
If that was true, you would not be focused so much on black crime as if crimes committed by black people are all that matters.
No. What I learned came from both experience and evidence which support one another. That’s why my opinions have a great deal of confidence. Your opinions, however, fly in the face of the evidence. That’s not good.
So, why should your experience and evidence hold more value than the experiences and evidences that disagree with yours? And this is all according to you. To be frank, what makes you so special?
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Check, and mate Brothawolf!! ..Besides, who in the Right mind would be “dumb” enough to take the words of some Statistician over a man who just recently, Literally experienced brutality and racism First-hand-as opposed to only reading about it from “so-called experts”!? Riddle me that one!!?
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..who in their Rght mind..
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brothawolf So, being intelligent equals success while not being intelligent equals failure?
Intelligence isn’t the only factor but it tends to be the largest factor.
So, smart people can do stupid things, but not as much as dumb people. What qualifies as smart and stupid?
My working definition is the ability to figure things out and get things done.
“Yet, you expect us to agree with you when you continuously use to the ‘blacks commit the most crimes’ catchphrase without an explanation. “
I supported it extensively on the open thread.
“If that was true, you would not be focused so much on black crime as if crimes committed by black people are all that matters. “
Due to differential rates they matter a great deal. Particularly where there are large numbers of negros.
So, why should your experience and evidence hold more value than the experiences and evidences that disagree with yours?”
Others experience and evidence doesn’t disagree with mine. You look for experience and flawed evidence to support your prejudice because your ego is too fragile to accept reality. Abagond’s blog is a magnet for that sort of thing because he portends to show the real reason for his followers’ failures.
“And this is all according to you. To be frank, what makes you so special?”
“Special” has nothing to do with it. Though I suppose I have fewer reasons to delude myself. Because my life is pretty good.
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Intelligence isn’t the only factor but it tends to be the largest factor.
In other words, yes.
My working definition is the ability to figure things out and get things done.
Sounds reasonable, only not so simple.
I supported it extensively on the open thread.
Uh-huh.
Due to differential rates they matter a great deal. Particularly where there are large numbers of negros.
Here we go again. Like I said, if you cared so much about crime, you wouldn’t be focused…no, obsessed with black crime as if that’s the only information that matters. Besides, if you’re so “concerned” what are you doing about it?
Others experience and evidence doesn’t disagree with mine. You look for experience and flawed evidence to support your prejudice because your ego is too fragile to accept reality. Abagond’s blog is a magnet for that sort of thing because he portends to show the real reason for his followers’ failures.
Talk about projection. LOL
I accepted reality a few years ago, and it wasn’t easy because I lived in a bubble for so long. Still, I’m glad I woke up.
You’re the only one who wants to remain asleep with an ego so large you can’t accept others opinions without calling them delusional. You seem to want to tell black people you know more about them than they do. And when you’re challenged, you seem upset. Talk about a fragile ego.
“Special” has nothing to do with it. Though I suppose I have fewer reasons to delude myself. Because my life is pretty good.
Yawn. Next.
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Mz. Nikita,
Jerome Smith’s quote flies right in the face of Jokah’s love for stats. I’m not good with calculating statistics, but Jokah, like so many before him, attempts to scapegoat the crime problem on one group with no reasoning. Even if his mantra is true, that still doesn’t cancel out the past or present as far as racism goes. These guys care more about numbers than causes.
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Good point, Brothawolf! Caring more about what #s are crunched as opposed to the human Experience are in my opinion, both a cop out and highly possible exaggerating way to skew the “facts” about criminality, equality, etc. as how They see fit-after all, who are the background(s) of the majority of statisticians who this drivel-and moreover, what is their reaL motivation behind it all(?)
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..what are the backgrounds of the majority of statisticians who write this drivel.. typo
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brothawolf “Besides, if you’re so “concerned” what are you doing about it?”
I’m doing the same thing about crime that I’m doing about illegitimacy, unemployment, welfare, drug abuse, alcoholism and lots of other things — not contributing to the problem.
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In other words, Jokah, you sit on your a** and complain by trolling on blogs like this one.
Moving on.
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LOLOL TrutH!!!
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[…] James Baldwin and Lena Horne embracing during a meeting in New York in 1963. Photo courtesy of abagond.wordpress.com. James Baldwin pictured with friends Odetta Holmes, American novelist Ralph Ellison and actors […]
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[…] Kenneth Clark ran down the numbers of how bad it was for Blacks. Robert Kennedy, Attorney General an… […]
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