“Dances with Wolves” (1990) is a Hollywood film where Kevin Costner plays a White American Civil War hero who is posted in 1863 to a fort in a Native American land now known as South Dakota. He befriends a wolf and the nearby Lakota Sioux Indians. They call him Šuŋgmánit Tȟáŋka Ób Wačhí – Dances with Wolves.
Note: This post is based on the three-hour American cinema version.
The good:
- Amazing buffalo hunt scene! None of it computer generated, like it would be nowadays. They did, however, use a few machine buffaloes.
- Lakotas speak Lakota with English subtitles instead of Broken English. All the way through the film! Too cool. Even if Costner and some of the men spoke grammatically like women.
- All the Native characters are played by Native actors. Even if most of the main Native characters were not played by Lakota actors.
- Natives wear ethnically correct clothing: Lakotas look like Lakotas, Pawnees look like Pawnees.
- Beautifully filmed – and you feel like you are there!
The bad:
- White Saviour / Helpless Darkies – You have seen this film a zillion times before: some White do-gooder goes out amongst the darker skinned to help them. For three hours White viewers can enjoy the fantasy of helping people they continue to screw over to this day.
- Noble Savage / Bloodthirsty Savage stereotypes – Lakotas are saintly, too good to be true, while Pawnees seem to kill for little or no reason. These stereotypes go back 500 years, all the way back to Christopher Columbus and Amerigo Vespucci.
- Indians Live in Tepees – some did, of course, but most did not and do not. Yet again Hollywood sets a film about Native Americans among the Plains Indians of the late 1800s. As if most Natives are alike and frozen in museum time. This is so ingrained in Western culture that when the Iroquois appeared in Europe in 1905, they had to dress like Plains Indians to seem “real”.
- Fails the Bechdel Test for Race – despite the large Native cast, Native characters mainly talk about Whites. In large part this is because the leading male and female characters are White. Why do we need a White hero – with a White love interest? Are White people, aka the Target Demographic, that lacking in feeling and imagination for people of colour? Why are the rest of us expected to put ourselves in their shoes when they rarely put themselves in our shoes?
- Cool White Inventions – Costner shows the Lakotas his cool coffee grinder, his cool telescope and saves their necks with yet another White invention: the gun. Cool! They apparently have no cool inventions of their own, even though they have somehow lived for thousands of years in a part of North America whose winters had wiped out the White soldiers who had arrived before Costner, where to this day Whites require government help to live there. Meanwhile Costner masters the Lakota way of life with ease.
- Tragic Indians – the coming destruction of the Lakotas by Whites is seen as unavoidable.
See also:
- The Lakota Sioux today
- White Saviour trope
- The Bechdel Test and race
- anti-Native racism:
- Native Americans according to the first Western accounts – Columbus and Vespucci. They were first. The rest is confirmation bias.
- The lies you were taught about Native Americans – this film supports all four.
- Laura Ingalls Wilder
- The three pillars of American white supremacy – just so you know
- human zoos
- The term “Indian”
Another post made with perfection. I do not understand why White audiences (apparently) won’t accept anything without White leads. Even when it comes to stories about POC, we are helpless, the primitive people they befriend and save. This kind of thing doesn’t help to briings Whites and POC together, it actually reinforces a lot of what the problem is by upholding and promoting the same superiority inferiority angles. My, my, my, another day, another dollar.
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The white savior and noble savage trope. smh.
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Ebonymonroe:
To the extent that’s true, it’s probably the same reason why Bollywood films tend to feature Indian leads rather than, say, Chinese ones, and Nollywood films tend to feature African leads rather than, say, Indian ones.
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@Kiwi
” Same mindset, different race of helpless darkie”—LOL.
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I think Dances With Wolves did take a giant step forward for it’s time. Considering the kind of cowboy and indian Westerns that mostly preceded it.
Although the main character was White, he became a vehicle through which to raise questions about White culture, White assumptions, and White conduct. The main character essentially chose the Sioux way of live over his former Whiteness in a way that actually seemed rational and mostly believable.
Of course DWW was not perfect (like most films). Agabond’s critiques mostly stand up. The way that I judge it is to notice that I’m not sure that I’ve seen a big budget movie that has keenly focused on Native American culture since DWW.
Personally, I would LOVE to see a true Native American epic set in pre Columbian times! A story of indians with no cowboys. Something a bit more human and less violent than Apocalypto
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0472043/
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All true. But I love the soundtrack.
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Memories of the 1990’s, ah that is what automatically comes to mind when I think of “Dances w/ Wolves” (be that a good or bad thing)..What I remember most was the beautiful scenery, and of course the handsomeee men that were cast, along with the realization that even as a young teen the whole “Good White Guy” trope was enough for me not to be 100% a fan of this Costner role-no matter what his initial intentions were.
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Always lost interest in it after watching for 30 minutes..
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Gotta quote from Marimba Ani’s Yurugu again. When I was reading it a few years ago I was nodding like a bobblehead because she brought all the aspects of their behavior together and showed how it served white supremacy. First from page 266, “Media and Self-Image” and then from page 294, “Media and the Image of Others”:
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266: (Self-Image)
The movie industry has had an obvious nationalist propagandistic character; a function that it has performed expertly. There is nothing comparable in any other culture, in terms of effect. The line between the projected image and a truly operative self-image is very thin, if it is to be drawn at all, and there is no doubt that Euro-American made films reveal the European utamaroho [cultural spirit]. Movies that depict the “virtuous” pioneer family defending itself against “vicious” and irrationally “hostile” Native Americans function to justify the actions of European-Americans and their behavior towards the indigenous population. But it is also the case that these pioneers must, in fact, have thought of themselves as the virtuous, adventurous souls they are depicted to be. Surely they believed it their “manifest destiny” to “brave the wilds of untamed lands” and that by building their homesteads, and thereby bringing family life and “civilization” to the “wilds”, they were being the most moral of beings. It is equally certain that they could not understand the intransigent hostility of the “Indians” – after all, were they not making great sacrifices to bring their inherited talent for “civilization” to these ingrates?! This image had to be assimilated into the Western European self-image. […]
The location of European films is often an indication of that aspect of European self-image the film is projecting. When the story takes place on foreign soil, the film becomes an opportunity for the expression of European self-image in relation to the image of others. The lands of other peoples often provide exotic settings and backgrounds for the “love affairs” and political intrigues of the European protagonists. (“Their love set the Dark Continent aflame!”) The reason that this settings is so common in European (American) films is that it has become a meaningful aspect of the European utamaroho. The world exists as a playground – a backdrop – for sport and play, for the adventures of the European. (The movie Out of Africa is a contemporary example.) Peoples of other cultures are actually experienced as “props,” supportive to the main (important) action of the script. These exotic settings are excellent for such purposes; a sexually stimulating “native” dancer at a strategic moment in a love affair – the romantic atmosphere of an “unspoiled” (not yet “civilized”) terrain – help to excite the “sophisticated” and sated imagination of the European audience. Sometimes a “native” girl helps to comprise part of the “unspoiled” resource to be enjoyed; at others, the European gets involved with the native surroundings to the extent hat he becomes a temporary “god” or “chief.” All this points to a very real belief and assumption of Europeans that the lands of other people provide an environment in which they are to act out their fantasies.
294 (Image of Others):
In the aftermath of slavery, during “Reconstruction” in the United States (the late 1800s and early 1900s), the image of the African suffered under a systematic assault of visual propaganda, at the hands of American whites. Now that slavery, as an institution, had ended, the attempt to dehumanize Africans on the part of the European would have to be continued using other methods. It was important to the system of white supremacy that (1) white people continually reinforce their European consciousness at the expense of the African image, i.e., through our degradation, and (2) that the Africans continued to act like “slaves” of a new sort and indeed become what the Europeans portrayed them to be. The objective of the European was thwarted to the degree that an African consciousness was sustained among people of African descent that allowed them to reject the European-created image of them.
It was during this period that a Euro-American controlled media began its long career as one of the most effective weapons used to ensure the exploitation and dependency of people of African descent. Black faces were used to sell everything from tooth paste to pancakes. Distorted images appeared on boxes and tubes, and even on vaudeville stages, to make white people laugh. But the media had really done its job well when black people laughed too, and in 1987 when black people had “arrived” and could therefore collect these vintage products of a racist media as “black memorabilia”.
The “faces” which appeared, distored carefully chosen characterstics of the African physiognomy: the color of the skin, texture of the hair, the contours of the lips and nose. Images brought attention to features that contrasted most with European features. The asili [her concept of the implied generative ‘seed’ of a culture] of the European culture demanded this kind of image-making and destruction for the advancement of European self-image. If they were to believe themsevles physically beautiful, what they considered to be their opposite must be projected as grotesque. That which had been positively expressed in the African aesthetic, i.e, braided hair, dark skin, and full features, were now made to appear ridiculous. The intricate African braiding patterns became braids standing straight up in an artificially stiff manner with ribbons tied around their ends. Very dark smooth African skin became a shiny plasticlike black, with accentuated rolling eyes and an enlarged, open red-lipped mouth. These images, of course, had the double effect of heightening European self-esteem (which must have been unusually vulnerable to require such extreme reinforcement), while at the same time devastating African self-esteem, as Africans replaced an African aesthetic with a European aesthetic.
Then Hollywood took over the image-making business, and not only could black people in America be lampooned in this way but also Africans on the continent. The result was that both Europeans and Africans rejected what was visually African. Because Hollywood (the film industry) reigned supreme in the creation and reinforcement of the European self-image, it also had to be the most devastating weapon in the destruction of the self-image of “non-European” peoples, since that is the flip-side of the coin. Seen another way, the films were tools with which to create a negative image of others. From African safaris to Bob Hope comedies, with white Cleopatras and crazed “Indians” in between, a motley array of blatant stupidity screamed, attacked, giggled, and shuffled itself across the screen, representing “non-European” peoples in the European consciousness. In fact, the image created in the Hollywood modality is a cartoonesque exaggeration of the characteristics already conjured by the European psyche out of the depths of its cultural utamawazo (collective cognitive structure) and utamaroho (collective emotional tone). […] They [ie the films] are about the business of creating and sustaining images of others for the European that reinforce themselves as superiors relating to inferior beings.
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The last sentence really sums it up. Even if the product in question keeps the most blatant stereotypes in check, that sentence will usually be true.
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@ Legion,
It seems that since I was a kid, I have always had these movie glimpses into the fascinating world of the aboriginal Americas. But they have only been glimpses—slivers really—because the main story is always euro-centric, with Native America only peeking through the occasional cracks.
What I am am proposing is a movie (or series of movies) WITHOUT the White context at all. So, in other words, a Dances With Wolves without Lt. John Dunbar. Leave in all the beauty and authenticity, the storytelling, and most importantly, the budget. But make the story about Native Americans that have no knowledge of the Whites across the ocean.
Because Native Americans fell in love, fought wars, had tragedies, and moments of supreme triumph, and hope. They had invention and philosophies and religion. They said goodbye to their homes, they migrated, and pioneered for thousands of years before any White people were even here. I’m not saying this because I hate White people, I’m just saying that EVERY story doesn’t have to be about them. And every audience is not so provincial and tribal that they would march out of the theater if they didn’t see a White protagonist within the first 15 minutes of the film.
Imagine this world as the backdrop, but without a White guy in it.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBhKj1Val8o)
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[…] you ever see Dances with Wolves? Read this review, instead! – via […]
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Randy…I wonder.. You seem to be saying Hollywod is simply a white institution naturally reflectig its own image. Which is probably how you see the rest of American society or how it should be…Non-whites need not be considered for visible representation. After all its not their country is it?
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@ Abagond
Have I missed this or have you plans to do a post on “12 years a Slave”?
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@ Kwamla
I did a post on Solomon Northrup, but not on the film yet:
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@Randy
No, I don’t think an American movie intended for an international audience can be compared to Bollywood and Nollywood cinema. Especially considering that Whites are not the original Americans and the fact that America is a mixed race society with many demographics. America and the UK are both multicultural, and though the White population in the UK is greater than its minority populations, the UK seems to be able to have POC as leads a lot more. I remember the creator of “The wire” (a White American guy) noting this in a documentary. He stated that African American audiences have been shown to watch a variety of television programming and cinema, while White American audiences are usually not receptive to a predominant Black casts/or anything with a significant amount of minorities cast. It’s somewhat telling unfortunately.
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@ Randy
“To the extent that’s true, it’s probably the same reason why Bollywood films tend to feature Indian leads rather than, say, Chinese ones, and Nollywood films tend to feature African leads rather than, say, Indian ones.”
That’s not a fair comparison b/c China is much more homogeneous racially and ethnically than the U.S., India has a tiny amount of Chinese citizens, and Nigeria, while very ethnically diverse, is still about 99% African.
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@Kwamla
It is soooo good to see your posts. I try not to get too excited when individuals that have not commented in a while appear. but you are one that I do so enjoy.
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Kwamla:
Not at all. And your imputation of my interests is incorrect as well as insulting.
Consider the following premises:
– Like tends to watch like (i.e. people prefer movies featuring those whom they identify ethnically, culturally, etc)
– As a business making rational investment decisions, Hollywood tends to aim for the “center of mass” in terms of likely movie ticket buyers.
If we imagine a world where those premises were true, would the history of Hollywood movie productions be significantly different from what we see today?
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[…] The good and bad of "Dances with Wolves"by @JulianAbagond […]
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[…] See on abagond.wordpress.com […]
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Why thank you Sharina 🙂 !
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@Kiwi: I agree with the part of your comment about nonwhite people being more open minded about watch white actors than white people watching non white actors. That’s why they say black films are not money makers in foreign countries.
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Randy, you would do well to take note of what Ebonymonroe has said to you. If you perceive the US to be a generally homogeneous society then you are endorsing the same view taken by Hollywood. You are justifying a business model which endorses only one part of a mixed demographic population as worthy of disseminating films in their image to.
Wouldn’t you agree it would not be unreasonable for other parts of this mixed demography left out to feel really insulted by this?
Which is what your comments basically amount to…And your the one who says you feel insulted by my comments?
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@Kiwi
You just brought up an excellent point. I watch a lot of Korean drama and I have noticed with the more recent ones that a lot of the actors are half white. This is also one of the reasons I have been pulling aware from the shows. Not that I am against half white individuals, but it takes away from it IMO.
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King said:
“Personally, I would LOVE to see a true Native American epic set in pre Columbian times! A story of indians with no cowboys. Something a bit more human and less violent than Apocalypto”
I liked Apocalypto myself though I think it was largely ignored because Hollywood doesn’t like Gibsons anti-Semitic rants and the movie didn’t have a white savior character. It did play to the Noble Savage / Bloodthirsty Savage stereotypes.
It did contrast natural religion/sustainable society against hierarchical religion and privileged society.
It had a sort of a fight for life theme where the hero was on the run and fights his way back to his home. His wife gives birth in a storm and that was a beautiful part of the movie.
It ended with the whites arriving by ship and the hero turning his back and saying we don’t want anything to do with them.
Some Hispanic critics were moved by it and others didn’t like how the Mayan’s were portrayed.
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@ Michael Jon Barker
I liked Apocalypto too, although the violence was pretty hard to take at times.
I liked how the actors spoke in the Yucatec Maya language instead of pandering to Anglo audiences by speaking English with a ‘foreign’ accent.
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@ Michael Jon Barker
I’m not so much saying that Apocalypto was necessarily bad… I just think that it was a bit one-dimensional. I’d like to so a broad, well-told story that incorporates the full range of life and emotion that human beings experience. I think Dances With Wolves was more indicative of that. I’d just like to see the next step taken, some twenty-odd years later, I’d like to finally see it as the story of an “Indian world” that existed for a long time upon this continent. We’re already familiar with it based on the snippets of it we’ve seen in so many movies, it wouldn’t be a very far cry to do an all Native American epic.
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King said “it wouldn’t be a very far cry to do an all Native American epic”.
For sure
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@Origin that was a great comment
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I liked Dances With Wolves a lot better than I liked The Last Mohican. That is saying a lot because I usually can’t stomach Kevin Costner. The Last Mohican made me feel that ever step that the Native Americans made was done better by a white character. Native American character couldn’t save the girl, couldn’t get the girl, they couldn’t start up a new tribe the skill was only passed on to Daniel’s character. Why because the Native American of course died killing all hope for his tribe to be reborn or to mix with another tribe. Even as a kid I thought wow why a movie called The Last Mohican did Daniel get such a huge billing. Hey even Tanto had to be second billing to the Long Ranger.
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Why are the rest of us expected to put ourselves in their shoes when they rarely put themselves in our shoes?
I would say they lack the empathy to do so mostly out of choice. They could do a movie with an all Native cast, no whites or white domination. But, the excuse has always been that their target audience would not enjoy the movie because it has no white people, and white people – in their minds – equal big bucks. White supremacy is the machine that runs the film industry.
White savior movies continue to soothe any hint of guilt whites feel for the sins of their fathers. Not only that, it reinforces that POC can’t function without white people’s help. Sadly, POC buy into this s**t.
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..True dat, Brothawolf! The only 1 thing I can think of that is Nearly as sick as this mindset, is that of the brain washed POC who (like my personal experience today, along with quite a few sad others) that treat their fellow females/males brethren in the same misguided fashion! Whilst I was waiting to bee seen for my routine yearly health checkup appointment (gotta stay vibrant!), lo and behold the only “brown fellow member” in the office saw to it that they would make sure to kiss the butt of every non-POC (no matter how unkempt their appearance, or not) and instead ignore and disrespect me when it was time to check my temp., pulse, whether I had a cold or not, etc.)-and then had the nerve to backtrack and proceed to butt-kiss and act as though they were (initially) civil to me in the 1rst place (thank goodness for CCTV) until their boss checked them and saw how they were being mean to nice, patient, young women like myself! SMH Just because I look younger than my age doesn’t give anyone (especially a self-hater s this) the license to try and “act an azz/show impress” to their employers (who not impressed by his attitude, by the record) and mistreat the onlY other brown mixed POC (like their own hue) in the room so disrespectfully and trifling, ugH!!! Other than that, my weekend is poppin’ tho’, lolol ; D
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Kwamla:
I’m not justifying or condemning it. I’m simply asking you to consider whether or not it’s a rational choice to target the largest demographic in a group. Please reread my question. I’d like to know your answer.
Kwamla:
By law, corporations have a primary fiduciary duty to maximize shareholder value. As such, I’m neither insulted nor flattered by decisions they make.
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Kiwi:
Colorism has existed for millenia in cultures around the world as a class distinction without any racial component whatsoever.
I’d be curious to know whether or not in your travels you have identified, confronted, and repudiated the widespread Chinese Privilege found throughout much of Asia.
My family in particular has been subject to this phenomenon. For example, I have heard a number of people refer to positive characteristics of my children as being attributable to their “Chinese blood”.
Can you imagine in 2014 that an academically successful half-black, half-white child would repeatedly be would be told, “It must be your white blood”?
And these comments aren’t coming from hayseeds, angry bigots, or elderly folk. These come from normal, kind, educated people.
People would lose their minds.
In Asia, it’s just another day. That’s some real privilege right there.
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The music, Lakota language, cinematography and atmosphere in this film blew me away.
But, a decade or so later I saw Tom Cruise do the same thing in Japan in “The Last Samurai” — the white foreigner again becoming the Coolest Cat in the Pack by effectively being a TRAITOR to other white people.
But after the hero commit himself to this moral high ground, he then has to become the LEADER of these alien people.
So, in these kinds of films, even if the white male protagonist ceases to be “white”, he has no choice but to lead the non-white, even making the ultimate sacrifice…because that’s what a hero does.
It’s done over and over, sometimes in Westerns, sometimes in Sci-Fi.
This was the same story in the film “Enemy Mine”, where a white space traveller on an alien (!) planet fights the alien (Louis Gossett Jr in a mask) and eventually ends up raising the alien’s child and sacrificing himself to save the child…
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB87kN6UTLg)
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In searching YouTube for of a particular scene from this film, up came lots of comparisons to “Avatar”. 😀 😀
Obviously, Dances with Wolves is a well-trodden theme (or meme) of the white man who says “I-love-your-people” and leads the way among his adopted people.
Included was reference to a 1957 movie, “Run of the Arrow”, which featured Rod Steiger in the Kevin Costner role as the soldier who becomes a Sioux:
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DolCKreJq7E)
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@Kwamla: I posted a reply to your comment which apparently disappeared at some point. If it doesn’t return, I’ll issue another reply later.
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More bad; the main White female protagonist is absolutely filthy like she’s never had a bath. Yet all of the Native people she lives with are clean.
Obviously the message in this is that White women are clean and pure as long as she is with other Whites but if she is with People of Color she will be dirty and filthy and bad.
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@Kiwi
ROFL. Sorry but wow.
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@Randy
I always thought your wife was Filipino? Perhaps I am mistaken?
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@ Bulanik, Wow I had forgotten all about that film goes along the line of the Last Star Fighter for me. Not even aliens can save themselves. I consider the Dark Crystal the few kids movies back in the day where the main characters were almost not white. Almost.
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@Kiwi: Behave young man, LoL!
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..Didn’t mean to write a novel yesterday, lol I was just upset at that mean jerk! Please feel free to erase my previous comment, Abagond : )
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@ Randy
Cool! Using your line of reasoning we can conclude that Hollywood thinks that at least 57% of White Americans are racist.
It goes like this, using the 2010 US census numbers:
197 million White Americans
112 million Black, Asian, Latino and Native Americans
The obvious thing to do is to produce multiracial content that reflects the country’s demographics so that no one is needlessly insulted or turned off, losing viewers.
BUT if multiracial content turns off more than 112 million whites, then it is better business to just go white, to target them, which is what Hollywood by and large seems to do.
Therefore most of Hollywood implicitly assumes that at least 57% of whites (112m out of 197m) are racist enough to be turned off by multiracial content.
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Kiwi,
LOL at your comment to Randy.
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Abagond,
To add to your comment, it would also mean that Hollywood believes that white audiences guarantee big money makers. So, they produce films aimed at them, even those that are terrible. It won’t matter as long as it targets white audiences because they will still pay to see it.
But – still going by Hollywood reasoning – films featuring POC that doesn’t cater to racist stereotypes, targeting specific POC is not a money maker since they are a minority. They won’t generate as much cash as white oriented films. And, like you said, white people can not or will not be able to identify with them if they’re not “real” (2-D stereotypes).
In the end, by definition, Hollywood is nothing more than a white supremacist media machine.
At least, that’s how I see it.
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Has anyone looked a the movie going demographic? I don’t know if POC’s attend movies at the same rate as white people. If they do, then some money people are missing the boat. It’s not really about propagandizing the white man, it’s about getting paid, and if whites are willing to plunk down the cash to watch movies, then a smart movie maker would try a little not to alienate them so they don’t come back for the sequel.
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I would also say that Hollywood tends to think that white people are “universal”. Therefore, not only white people will watch white oriented movies that white people will be attracted to, but also, there will be POC who will flock towards them as well.
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@ Brothawolf
Exactly. Spike Lee’s “She’s Gotta Have It” is a “black” movie, but Woody Allen’s “Annie Hall” is not a “white” movie. It is just a movie.
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” It’s not really about propagandizing the white man, it’s about getting paid, ”
Statements like this only serve to obfuscate. When is racism not about getting paid?
It’s about white people getting paid at the expense of others.
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Kiwi:
Funny comment!
And you are spot on.
My wife does love white **** (I assume you mean “rice”?) and I do love me some Asian ***** (“foods”?). Yum!
But I’m afraid though that you’ve fallen afoul of the “Arab Trader Argument” (see here: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/10/03/the-arab-trader-argument/) Ouch.
The existence of one type of damaging, unearned of privilege does not excuse another type.
As a person who has demonstrated conscience and sensitivity to social justice, I would expect that you’d be mindful of not only privileges which may negatively impact you, but ones that you benefit from as well.
Thus, I ask about the ways in which you’ve identified, confronted, and repudiated the widespread Chinese Privilege found throughout much of Asia.
I’d also invite any other gentle readers of Chinese descent to share their stories of how they’ve worked to identify and dismantle it, both in their own personal lives and in society.
SharinaI always thought your wife was Filipino? Perhaps I am mistaken?
She’s both. Many Filipinos also share some quantity of Chinese ancestry.
As shocking as it is to hear Chinese people openly praising the merits of “Chinese blood”, it’s doubly shocking when Filipinos without Chinese ancestry do the same. Those moments give you a glimpse into how widespread such racist ideas actually are.
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Randy
Unfortunately I have never heard any of my filipino friends do it.
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Kiwi:
Racial privilege doesn’t exist because person who would benefit from it says they haven’t noticed benefiting?
Bzzzt. Are you new. That argument, understandably, don’t work around here.
Also, you broken recorded again. I’ll let you guess which one.
Kiwi:
Complete speculation on your part, but even if true, the existence of one type of privilege doesn’t excuse another. Also, from a moral standpoint, a person who is the “victim” of one type should not permit themselves to benefit from another type lest they be judged hypocritical.
Kiwi:
Chinese Privilege is not related to contemporary politics. Rather, you see it in the economic and political caste-superiority of countries like the Philippines, Indonesia, and Malaysia. You also see CP in TV, movies, and advertisements, as Chinese skin color and features are given precedence of those of indigenous peoples.
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King
I think Dances With Wolves did take a giant step forward for it’s time. Considering the kind of cowboy and indian Westerns that mostly preceded it.
Although the main character was White, he became a vehicle through which to raise questions about White culture, White assumptions, and White conduct. The main character essentially chose the Sioux way of live over his former Whiteness in a way that actually seemed rational and mostly believable.
——————————————————————————————————
You beat me to it King.
The “white mans burden” is really not what we have been taught it is.
Many people missed it when Agent Smith revealed its true NTR because it was presented as a mirror image. Smith is projecting himself onto Morpheus and then attacking Morpheus.
Sound familiar?
“I hate this place…I must get free…”
AGENT SMITH– I’d like to share a revelation that I’ve had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you’re not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet. You’re a plague and we are the cure.
Can you hear me, Morpheus? I’m going to be honest with you. I hate this place, this zoo, this prison, this reality, whatever you want to call it. I can’t stand it any longer. It’s the smell, if there is such a thing. I feel saturated by it. I can taste your stink. And every time I do I feel I have somehow been infected by it. It’s repulsive, isn’t it? I must get out of here. I must get free and in this mind is the key, my key. Once Zion is destroyed there is no need for me to be here, don’t you understand? I need the codes. I have to get inside Zion, and you have to tell me how. You’re going to tell me or you’re going to die.
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Abagond:
I think the problem with your premise is that you appear to be suggesting that people who prefer to watch movies with actors of their own demographic grouping are necessarily “racist”.
I suspect that most people around the world, across most cultures, likely exhibit this preference.
Thus, your premise suggests that the bulk of humanity has a fundamental moral flaw. I find such arguments to be highly suspect.
Abagond:
I think this process is already underway, don’t you? One would reasonably expect supply to adjust to demand.
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Kiwi:
I stated that colorism without a racial component existed for millenia. Exposure to the sun indicated an agrarian profession, and thus communicated lower social class.
Kiwi:
Misogynist and vulgar humor isn’t generally my cup of tea, but I thought your comment was funny. Still, I think that while your offense is pretty good, your defense still needs some work.
Kiwi:
Yes, I have seen Chinese Privilege in the US, directed against so-called “lesser Asians” aka brown people.
Also, was I incorrect in recalling that you’d spent some time actually living in Asia?
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@ Randy
That is not what I said. I said that they “are racist enough to be turned off by multiracial content.”
Of course it is reasonable to expect that. That is the whole point – the point that YOU were arguing AGAINST earlier:
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@ Randy
And no, I do not think the process is well under way. Not when “Breaking Bad” can be set in present-day New Mexico and have a main cast that is almost all white. That is nuts.
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@ Randy,
Perhaps you would care to listen to what Marlon Brando had to say about American History concerning the Native Americans and Hollywood’s treatment in its cinematic portrayal of them.
If a white Hollywood star and actor like Marlon Brando can “get it”. Why is it you have so much difficulty?
I have to say in all my comments and exchanges of comments I have observed with you. You are beyond ignorant. You are willfully and intentionally keeping yourself ignorant. Your only saving grace is that some how you unconsciously realize this deficit which is why you persist in trolling Abagond’s blog in the hope you might eventually learn something.
Given the amount of years you have spent here you really should have graduated by now!
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@Kwamla
“Given the amount of years you have spent here you really should have graduated by now!”
***********
This is quite a reasonable/logical conclusion Kwamla, EXCEPT Randy is stuck in his ignorance. We’ve witnessed this sort of CONSCIOUS hopelessness countless times over the years on this very blog. It’s akin to deliberately swallowing the BLUE pill after which no amount of evidence, proof, logic, data, studies, books, research or testimony can move a STUCK soul out of his or her place of idiocy.
If all of the truth (regarding racist issues) in the world were literally written on Randy’s person/skin, he would remain unable to recognize (or admit to) even one word of it.
It is impossible for him to matriculate much less graduate. He’s destined, like so many others of his ilk, to remain in this hopeless loop of inanity. Randy is simply unrecoverable… lost because he insists on it. He prefers any dark cellar over bright boundless skies.
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King
IAlthough the main character was White, he became a vehicle through which to raise questions about White culture, White assumptions, and White conduct. The main character essentially chose the Sioux way of live over his former Whiteness in a way that actually seemed rational and mostly believable.
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Actually, Tarzan may be the first popular iteration of this phenomenon with gorillas playing the part of nonwhite people. The franchise started in, I think 1912? and every generation, they make a new Tarzan movie. They never lose money on Tarzan.
If I had to chose one fictional character to represent the white collective “wet dream”, it would be Tarzan; he even beats out Superman, Batman, Spiderman… and all the comic book heros.
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I have to admit Matari, I could not honestly challenge anything you’ve said here with regard to Randy…
I could only add to it:
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You must admit that Randy is comical though!
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@ Herneith
Using Matari’s description: …He is a “…STUCK soul! …stuck in his own place of idiocy..”…but, yes a laughable one too!
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Abagond:
Breaking Bad has a pretty small cast. I’m not sure that the show is a good representation of your concern.
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Kwamla:
You’re clearly not interested in discussion, only pontification.
I offered a reasonable thought experiment regarding the issue at hand, and you never engaged. This has happened several times. I guess people are supposed to accept your opinions simply on the basis of you having made them.
Matari:
For you and Kwamla, warmly: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Graham%27s_Hierarchy_of_Disagreement.svg
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Kiwi:
Huh? I thought that your comment was funny, in a satirical kind of way. And as far as I know, you’re not white.
Also, Asia-born asian people say “ch**ky eyes”. So, ninja please.
Then there’s the matter of addressing Chinese Privilege. Maybe Abagond might let me do a guest post…
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Unfortunately for you Randy the bottom of the triangle in that Hierarchy of Disagreement was reached years ago!. Many people (including myself) have been at pains to engage with you starting at the top and working their way diligently down. However, YOU have consistently refused to accept and engage arguments and explanations posters have put to you.
You could use this particular thread as an example: Multiple arguments and explanations have been put to you by several people. But you still refuse to accept or acknowledge every last one. Preferring your own innately, supposedly superior, rational and logical reasoning
I’ve personally put to you Marlon Brando’s own reasoning and testament (see also his refusal to accept his Oscar) about Native Americans and Hollywood’s refusal to tell and glorify human history stories in anything other than the white male/female fantasy and illusory image. But guess what? YOU chose not to engage with this? No surprises there then…!
In fact it left me wondering this very same thing… 🙂
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“Also, Asia-born asian people say “ch**ky eyes”—-is this another one of thos3 clsims you make and can’t support?
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Those* claims*
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If the Hollywood bosses would think with their brains, they would do a all native epic in a flat second. That would not propably break box office records in US but would sell all over the world. It doesn’t matter where I have been around the world, most guys I have talked with about westerns etc. have all been thinking this: how cool would be a movie of native americans without any white bozoes?
Me and my friends never wanted to be cowboys or cavalry jerks. We cheered for the indians at the movies. They were our heroes, not some dumb ass white mustachio pete or cavalry officer. The indians had better looking women as well. Oh yes, nobody wanted to play white “heroes” after the movies, we all wanted to be indians. The stupid guys got to play cavalry whom we indians then wiped out in our imaginary games.
As a kid I was looking a western and waiting and waiting, and when the “hostile injuns” apperaed on the screen I was always so happy. No matter if they were supposed to be the bad guys in a story line, they were always my heroes.
But a truly historically accurate epic on a big scale of native americans, that would be a massive hit around the world for sure.
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I don’t get most of the comments on this topic at all.
The bad guys were primarily whites in the movie.
Since these were Plains Indians why the complaint about Tipis?
China is highly diverse, it’s just that the Han dominate/crush everyone else.
If the woman was dirty with the natives, its because she was also likely mentally disturbed having been kidnapped by the noble savages as a young person.
Is this movie not based on a true story? If so, and it is narrated in the first person for much of it, do you eliminate the white narrator?
In case it escaped you, the Native Americans did need white help – against other whites. They didn’t get near enough of it.
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@Joshua: It is fantasy, not a true story.
Native americans would have not needed anybody’s help had there not been white invaders in the first place, they were doing just fine before first europeans arrived to their shores.
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@ Kiwi: Comment deleted for making personal remarks.
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@Sharina, regarding your question to Randy.
I have ONLY heard some Filipino people use this term when they speak English because there is no good English equivalent for the term “singkit” which Filipino people use to describe eyes with strong epicanthic folds. Since many Filipinos are partly of Chinese or even Japanese descent, some people look what Filipinos call “singkit”, or with a more pronounced epicanthic eyefold.
It is NOT a common term used throughout Asia (for example, you will not hear it in English speaking Singapore, Malaysia, Hong Kong, etc.). But, I have heard it used by some Filipinos because they do not know the suitable or appropriate word to use in English. They probably picked it up from the US colonial and imperialist era when white people taught Filipinos how to speak English.
So, I do believe that Randy is telling the truth that he has heard Asians use this term (esp. newcomers from the Philippines), but it is hardly a common term used among Asians, whether in the USA or in Asia.
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Just found this post and wanted to add a few details. The Lakota, before the buffalo were annihilated by the whites, did live in teepees as they needed to be mobile following the herds. There are Lakota who carry stories that they originated in the cornfields of what’s now North Carolina. They were among the first Contacted, and they had the foresight to see what was coming, leave behind what had been a thriving agricultural economy and pack up to the west. They then adapted amazingly to the horse culture of the plains and reverted to a hunter/gatherer lifestyle their Ancestors had evolved past centuries earlier. So, the bits between Graham Greene’s character and Kostner’s, where Graham is begging Kevin to tell him what’s coming are absurd. The Lakota knew from the git go what was coming and put themselves into just the right spot to be the very last tribe the Americans conquered.
My eastern Siouan ancestors lived in a’ti’s, domed structures that lasted about twenty years, about how long a village would occupy a particular location before it moved on to another locale where the soil was more fertile. Land rotation. These huts were amazingly warm, solid structures, capable of withstanding hurricanes. Women did the farming, the men hunted in reserves that were carefully managed. Forest management techniques were employed that American culture would not reinvent till the 20th century. By way of controlled burns, the forest floor was kept open enough for buffalo to live in the Eastern Woodlands. Trees grew to incredible heights. The Woodlands were an incredible, man-made environment. Of course, when the settlers arrived they assumed it was nature run wild, it was anything but.
Because there were no draft animals native to the Americas, or animals adaptable to domestication, forestry took the place of animal husbandry. These hunting reserves were capable of supporting very large populations, and the men got to go hunting instead of slopping pigs. Needless to say, they quite enjoyed their lifestyle.
The population seemed scanty to the invading whites only because 90% of the population had been wiped out by disease that swept through the Americas like wildfire at Contact. It was not the military or technological superiority of the whites that enabled them to invade these continents, but microbes. European culture did not become technologically advanced until after it had acquired the technologies of the people native to the Americas. These ‘primitive hunter/gatherers’ gave the Europeans the staple crops that fueled their industrial revolution .
Oh dear, I can go on forever on this subject. Fascinating.
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