July 8th 2013: In America we are now in the last week of the George Zimmerman murder trial. The prosecution has already made its case. Barring a bombshell dropped by the defence, I think Zimmerman is guilty of murder when he, as the neighbourhood watchman, shot dead Trayvon Martin, a 17-year-old unarmed black boy.
I do not believe Zimmerman’s story. Why should I? He is up for murder. Besides, what he says sounds made up:
Compare:
The Black Brute stereotype: here is what I said about it in 2008, four years before the shooting:
It is why whites are afraid to walk alone in black neighbourhoods: some black man might jump out of nowhere and rape or kill them. They especially like to rape and kill complete strangers at night.
What Zimmerman says: That Martin “jumped out of the bushes” and said, “You are going to die tonight” – to a complete stranger. And it was night. Pure Black Brute stereotype all the way down to the lack of motive. There were not even any bushes – they were made up too!
Not that the Black Brute stereotype is never true – there are psychopathic killers who are black. But coming from someone who has reason to lie – about someone with no history of violence or insanity – it needs to be backed up.
But that is not the only thing that sounds made up:
- He has Martin saying, “Alright, you got me, you got me,” after he was shot – like it was a Hollywood film, like they were playing cops and robbers. Or something.
- He has Martin say “homie”. I have not heard a black person say that in real life in over 20 years. Another apparent Hollywoodism.
Throwing out Zimmerman’s story, we are left with:
- the physical evidence,
- Rachel Jeantel’s testimony (she spoke to Martin on the phone just minutes before he died), and
- the 911 tapes.
Rachel Jeantel has Martin being watched and then followed and then challenged by Zimmerman – and then an apparent struggle on the ground. Her Trayvon Martin does not say “homie”, even though she heard that part of the exchamge and even though she hardly cleaned up what Martin said.
Physical evidence: Zimmerman got a bloody nose. The back of his head was banged against the paved walkway. Yet there was no blood on Martin’s hands and none of Zimmerman’s DNA under his fingernails. It could not have been much of a fight on Martin’s part, certainly not one that threatened Zimmerman’s life.
The 911 tape: The next thing we know, from the 911 tape, are screams for help cut short by a gun shot. That means it was Martin who was screaming since he was the one who was shot.
Even real policemen, ones with training and years of experience, kill unarmed blacks. So it is not surprising that Zimmerman would do the same, with his wannabe-cop self who seems to think he is in a Hollywood film – the kind where the hero cop kills the bad guy in the end.
See also:
I agree with your analysis. You forgot the tidbit about Zimmerman saying that he exited his vehicle to check the name of the street. His gated neighborhood had only three streets, and he patrolled them obsessively. He knew the name of the street.
I would add the piece about the genesis of the contact between Zimmerman and Trayvon in the first place — the background of Zimmerman as a wannabe cop, arming himself with a Tec9, and trolling the small neighborhood looking for “thugs”. At a fundamental level, do we as a society want to enable vigilantes? If so, a bunch of Zimmermans is what we will have.
At a personal level, I chafe at Zimmerman’s use of hackneyed police jargon during his post-shooting interview is to me pathetic. I chafe even more at the cracker cop who appears to have empathized with Zimmerman.
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People say homie all the time, especially young people. Other than that I agree.
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I think parts of Zimmerman’s story sound made up as well. That still doesn’t equate to proving second degree murder beyond a reasonable doubt.
See here:
Analysis: George Zimmerman Probably Won’t Be Convicted of Murder or Manslaughter — Here’s Why
http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-convicted-murder-manslaughter/story?id=19598422
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Blanc2, “You forgot the tidbit about Zimmerman saying that he exited his vehicle to check the name of the street. His gated neighborhood had only three streets, and he patrolled them obsessively. He knew the name of the street.”
Good point. And since when do you need to leave your vehicle to read a street sign?
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This should be a no-brainer. How can anyone deduce that it was GZ screaming?
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Zimmerman is going to get off…..
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I think he probably will get off as well, though I completely agree with Abagond’s analysis. This whole trial makes me sick, especially how they are trying to put the victim on trial as a wannabe thug, etc. So he was a 17-year-old having some issues, why kid hasn’t. I had mine. That’s why he was staying with his father. Doesn’t mean he deserved to be shot in the street like a dog for doing nothing. Zimmerman is a nut case, and I wrote it once before, but when he’s free he’ll probably kill again.
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“Solesearch,
People say homie all the time, especially young people. Other than that I agree.”
Linda says,
I was suspicious of the word “homie” coming out of Trayvon’s mouth because here in S. Florida (where Trayvon is from), I hear the young black people say “dude, bro(a) or “nigga(z)” … They’ll say “my boy or homeboy (but even homeboy can be used in a derogatory way to mean “gay”)
I’m sure somewhere, someone might be saying “homie” on the regular (like maybe Mexicans in Texas or California) but I’m not sure that word is popular down here.
Being from N. Miami, Trayvon might have called him “Papi” before he called him “homie”
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dang abagond with that headline i thought he was convicted already, i haven’t been watching the trial just some highlights every now and then, its too depressing. I think he’ll either get off or get a light sentence. That is dumb that he said trayvon said ok u got me. wtf who the hell says that, only in some hollyweird movie. if he said that then when did he say that because all we hear are screams then a gunshot and nothing else. So george when did he say u got me was it after the screams for help stopped? but u shot him in the heart which would mean he was dead and i never heard of a dead person speaking. what are going to say next that u are psychic and he said that from the other side, yep u delusional. o u say he jumped out of bushes, funny because there are non there, oh he was a magical negro that snapped his fingers and bushes appeared and disappeared ok. now did he jump out of the bushes when he was on the phone with rachel? then why doesn’t she say she heard rustling like bushes make? oh u say she’s lying ok, but if she is lying then wouldn’t it have made sense for her to lie about him saying the c word especially since its an all white jury and they may be offended? dismissed ur story is wack. the prosecution is lame too, put me up there.
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Is there a correlation between a lame prosecution and the need to cover up the defective police department? I always felt that they were in cahoots.
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Jefe,
What we call defective, Sanford PD calls just another day of work and another dollar — that’s why Trayvon was treated like a criminal and George got to go home (whatever happened to 48 hour hold) without a drug test.
nobody who has lived in Florida for a long period of time is surprised that the Sanford PD were so nonchalant — Sanford and that area is/used to be the “seat” of KKK activity (just like Ocala)
Everyone down here knows that once you leave South Florida, they are in the “good ole boy” territory… The white people who live in these areas are “southern”, carry guns on the regular, got their confederate flags on their trucks, etc… black people learn to live with it and deal accordingly.
Trayvon had every right to worry that a trigger-happy “redneck” might have meant him harm because that possibility is very real up in those parts.
the same way, I told my sons to drive the speed limit when they are driving threw Ocala, west and north Florida (like Jacksonville) because back in the day, getting stopped by the police in those areas could very well be a ticket (if you’re lucky) or a life or death situation, especially if you got white girls in your car
People who don’t live in Florida think that these type of racist white people don’t exist, it’s all made up like the movies, but they are still here and work as elected officials, police officers, and other government jobs — they’ve taken off their white robes and replaced it with uniforms.
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@ Ms Good
I see what you mean. i changed the title.
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@ peanut
“so horrible to deny him the integrity of his last moments on earth by STEALING his cries and pleas for help from him and giving them to Zimmerman”
That is what they’ve been doing. They steal everything they can and pass it off as their own. they think everybody is this dumb, and i hate to say this but i think trayvons parents and his step mom need to be quiet for a minute. Because i remember some of the things they said that could be used against them, i know they grieving but sometimes some of the things they have said does more harm than good.
@ abagond
aw u didn’t have to change it, i just thought it was over, because i want it to be over so bad. I was thinking is the trial over, then i’m like no they just started, then i was thinkin is abagond psychic., lol. yes guilty would be the verdict we all are hoping for, but we know there is a major possibility it won’t be what we hear.
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Urgh! I hate this because I can’t see if the ethnicity was reverse how he would be getting away with it. I can’t get by this one fact, Zimmerman never needed to be in the situation in the first place. If he is in fact innocent then why did he jump in harms way after the authorities told him not to. This is the hard fact that comes to mind. No matter what seems he was seeking provocation. The word ‘follow’ should be the end of the case.
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When the trial was in the media and part of that for me was on your blog (That is where I first heard about it) .. abagond, I was 100% sure he did it with murderous intent. Now after the actual trial I have been swayed. Manslaughter maybe but 2nd Degree murder? I don’t think so. You conveniently left out who is screaming because the brother is lying when he says it is absolutely his brother. I believe Zimmerman’s uncle and brother. Should he have followed him in the first place?… absolutely not. But is it second degree murder? .. absolutely not.
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Excuse me it was Zimmerman’s Uncle and Mother who testified to the screaming. I’m sorry but I went and looked at that on line and watched it 5 times. They are not lying.
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@ Peanut
By that I mean there are psychopathic killers who are black, who therefore “fit” the stereotype.
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I do believe the media is pushing a “race-war” agenda here. They knew he would get off (because there is not enough evidence for second degree murder) They have been frothing at the mouth ever since. Then Jaime Foxx says “Riot if he gets off?” Totally irresponsible.
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[…] Don’t you wish you lived in a country whose judicial system was organized by this guy? […]
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@ Dave
I did talk about who is screaming and said why I believe it is Trayvon Martin:
Zimmerman’s mother thinks it is her son who is screaming, while Trayvon Martin’s mother thinks it is her son. I doubt either is lying.
When I first heard the screaming I thought it was Trayvon Martin because it was pretty high pitched, it sounded like a boy. But then again Zimmerman has a pretty high-pitched voice, so I can see how someone might honestly think it is him.
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“Dave,
Excuse me it was Zimmerman’s Uncle and Mother who testified to the screaming. I’m sorry but I went and looked at that on line and watched it 5 times. They are not lying.”
Linda says,
Get real, Dave… Zimmerman’s mother doesn’t want her son to go to jail, just like Trayvon’s mother didn’t want her son to be dead.
If George was screaming, then why did the screaming stop as soon as the shot went off? Why was he screaming “no, please don’t !!” right before the gunshot went off?
I don’t find the Zimmerman’s to be more credible than the Martins/Fulton’s..
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George Zimmerman is guilty, I certainly think he is. But his innocence or guilt is not what is on trial here. It remains to be seen if his guilty actions can be excused via all those weird Florida laws, and the level of racism existing in the judge and the jury members that will come into play concerning those laws as well.
There also exists the distinct possibility of getting a guilty verdict but GZ getting a slap on the wrist.
I pray daily that justice will happen, but at the same time I prepare myself for what I think will actually happen. But whatever happens, POC in Florida need to organize and get those effed up laws and statutes GONE from the books.
Because really, this whole thing is about can someone murder someone else and walk under Florida laws as they exist right now. Because until those legal changes are made there will be plenty more Trayvons, and the Zimmermans of the state will continue to act like Open Season On Young Black Males is a state-sanctioned past time. Because near as I can tell: it is.
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The State of Florida has the burden of proving the absence of self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. A witness named John Good testified that he saw Trayvon Martin on top of George Zimmerman and that he was punching down upon him. There is also physical evidence that Zimmerman was being beaten. The best lawyer in the world couldn’t prove the absence of self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt where a witness says the defendant was on the ground being beaten at the time he fired his gun.
It’s creepy the way the media never reported about what John Good – it’s because of this witness that the prosecutor originally decided not to try the case. It is simply impossible to get a conviction where there is a witness like this.
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Another big misconception: this situation has nothing to do with Stand Your Ground. The Defense never went for a Stand Your Ground hearing – they are simply relying on a regular self-defense argument. This isn’t some weird peculiar Florida law.
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“jeremiahwagner,
A witness named John Good testified that he saw Trayvon Martin on top of George Zimmerman and that he was punching down upon him. There is also physical evidence that Zimmerman was being beaten.”
Linda says,
There is physical evidence that George got punched in the nose and they were rolling on the ground… as for being beaten, please… his injuries are nothing.
I work in the medical field and I’ve seen old ladies who fell on the floor with worse injuries than what George displayed…for a man who took 2 years of martial arts, he wants everyone to believe he couldn’t throw 1 punch back or get I a few licks because Trayvon was just so big and terrifying — yeah right, whatever… George used a gun in a fist-fight that he initiated with his actions
that’s the problem with trying cases in the media… a bunch of people with no medical or legal experience, trying to play doctor, lawyer, judge and jury.
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All these people who want to debate: 2nd degree vs manslaughter… at the end of the day — who cares !!!
George started this whole episode, admitted to pulling the trigger and killing Trayvon — who is dead and is not coming back and can’t give his version of events; George is the ONLY person left alive who was there from start to finish….not John Goode or his family.
(John Goode didn’t see who started the fight, he say a small portion before he turned around and went into his house — he didn’t see the rest of the fight where Trayvon was killed)
George Zimmerman is HIGHLY MOTIVATED to say what is necessary to keep his a’s out of jail and he used his knowledge of criminal justice law and gun training /self-defense to do so.
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The State is simply not going to be able to prove the absence of self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt where John Good says Trayvon was on top.
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“jeremiahwagner,
The State is simply not going to be able to prove the absence of self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt where John Good says Trayvon was on top.”
Linda says,
under the law, Trayvon also had a right of self-defense because he felt his life was in imminent danger from a strange man who followed and accosted him…
Also, George losing the fight doesn’t give him the “right of self-defense”, especially if he Started the fight…
that is what is being contested in court… not George being a grown man who was losing the fight to a teenager but George having to prove that he did not start the actual physical fight (that no one witnessed except him and Trayvon)
Because if George did start the actual fight, then “self-defense” goes out the window… can’t cry “victim” because you wrote a check your a’s couldn’t cash.
but once again, no one will Ever know the truth because only George Zimmerman survived to tell the tale.
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They need to fry that “creepy ass cracker.”lol
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Linda, people in Miami might not say homie, but black people do. The word is not outdated. Phrases like “What up, homie?” or “That’s the homie.” are quite common. Matter of fact, you can go on twitter and search for homie to see what I’m talking about.
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Everytime Z opens his mouth, he proves he is guilty. I know his mom dosent want him to go to jail, but if she was a true mother, she would know the suffering Martin’s mom is going through. She needs to confess that is not her son’s voice on tape sceaming for help. As far as I am concerned, the one with the gun does not call for help. Maybe if she and Z’s father raised him right, this would not have happened in the first place.
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Solesearch @ I believe you…
but Trayvon is from Miami, so the odds of him using that word was low.
so to me, George was adding a little too much to his story.
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In the State of Florida, (and in most states) when you are tried for a crime, a Defendant has a right to invoke self-defense. At that point, the burden shifts to the State to prove the absence of self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. Florida law defines self-defense as the reasonable belief in the danger of death or great bodily harm.
A reasonable person who is being pinned down and who is being beaten will believe that he is in danger of death or great bodily harm. There is no way that the State is going to be able to meet its burden, and convince all 6 jurors beyond a reasonable doubt that George Zimmerman did not have a reasonable belief that he was in danger of death or great bodily harm.
But lets say Zimmerman started the fight. The State would have the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman started the fight (which they cannot do, because there is no evidence that he started the fight.) Even in this circumstance, where Zimmerman started the fight, but then lost and Trayvon Martin got on top of him and was beating him – the State couldn’t prove beyond a reasonable doubt the absence of self-defense given John Good’s testimony and Zimmerman’s physical injuries. At best, the State could get a manslaughter conviction, because the State couldn’t prove the absence of what lawyers call “imperfect” self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. (Imperfect self-defense is using excessive force in self-defense – it allows for a manslaughter conviction, but not a homicide conviction.)
But given that the State can’t prove that Zimmerman started the fight, and John Good testified that Martin was on top and was beating Zimmerman, the State won’t be able to get a conviction even for manslaughter.
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“jeremiahwagner@
Florida law defines self-defense as the reasonable belief in the danger of death or great bodily harm.”
Linda says,
That’s right and Trayvon had every right to Defend himself from George.
and you do know that a person doesn’t have to have physical injuries or 1 scratch on their body, to say that they had a “reasonable” fear that their life was in danger, right?
That’s why I said people like you are talking in the wind because at the end of day it doesn’t matter.. George admitted to pulling the trigger.
George killed a human being… that’s manslaughter … now he has to convince a jury that he did it because he had no other choice
that’s why Zimmerman automatically stated that his head was being banged because he has to try to show he met “force with force” — since Trayvon did not have a gun, knife, rope, bat, or any other weapon.
Trayvon winning the fight or sitting on top of George does not give George a claim to self-defense if he started the fight — doesn’t work like that…you can’t start an fight, draw a gun, then claim self-defense.
This is a “he say, she say” event — no other witnesses except Trayvon and George to the actual event he is on trial for — pulling the trigger and killing Trayvon.
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Linda I am in no way being rude to anyone on here … I am expressing an honest opinion. So telling me to “Get real” doesn’t make your argument valid. I was just as much outraged about this when I heard it as anyone.
There is no way Trayvon’s brother wouldn’t know that was him. I believe it is Trayvon’s mother that wants this man to go to prison that she is doing what you say “any mother would do” The fact that she included his middle name to “Make it more official” is suspect to me. Sorry. I’m going to express honest opinions on here. Most people in turn have been fair to me. Some have not.
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Wow, great comments on this thread. Linda- nice work, especially the comment about the little old ladies you’ve seen with worse injuries. How many blows to head can you take, in your expert medical role, before you lose consciousness? can you be knocked out by one blow? Absolutely. Once you’re unconscious, do you think your attacker will cease? If you are armed, will you lose your weapon – probably, will you shot or stabbed with it, again – that is likely. I think Trayvon was pummuling George, as was testified to, then he went after the pistol, that’s when George panicked and screamed – he knew how that would end. He was able to retain the weapon and fire one shot, ending the fight, with the gun in contact with Trayvon’s shirt, but not his chest. The shirt hangs when your bent over, not when you’re on your on back.
Lastly, the no DNA under Trayvon’s fingernails, no kidding? He wasn’t scrathing George, he was punching him – Was there any testimony on other injuries Treyvons body had beside the bullet hole? That would put to bed the whole “losing a fist fight” argument wouldn’t you agree?
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One more thing about the Black Brute Sterotype. Are you guys even remotely aware of the increasing violence in Chicago, Milwaukee, and Newark? Black men are killing black men at alarming rates. Flash mobs are now flash robs, smash and grab and group beatdowns are being recorded and showing up on You Tube, young black people are rampaging and laughing and cheering one another one. These things are real – but Abagond has developed a list of “things than can’t be spoken” one of them being the black brute sterotype. Out in the world, alot people are working hard to reinforce that sterotype, Here’s a link just in case you want to step out of the echo chamber and have a look around.
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2011/07/oh-white-girl-bleeds-alot-black-youth-mob-attacks-stomps-on-group-of-whites-in-milwaukee/
This article has become the title of web site dedicated to chronicling these types of shenanigans.
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Dave,
I’m not trying to make my statements “valid” and by saying “get real”, yes,
I’m saying put it in perspective….
each mother wants the scream to be their childs…so to me, the families are “expected” to say “yes, that’s my child or relative”… who wouldn’t
But clarity has to remain along with a good dose of skepticism when it comes to the families because each side wants it to be their loved ones… good for you if you choose to believe that it’s George, as you say, that’s your opinion
I’ve also listen to the tapes, and my opinion, I hear two voices — I think they were shouting consecutively … I do think the ones in the beginning were George but towards the end, I believe it was Trayvon… common sense dictates the person screaming and the scream immediately stops would be the person who got shot.
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I agree with your analysis too.
THE most suspect thing in all this (I was able to watch a little of the live images today) is the CARE they take to absolutely get people to say “it was George’s voice”. Like, someone who is holding a weapon is the one who is going to cry for help !
This is pure lies from the beginning to the end, and so typical in the manner they try to defend him and stand together with him. It’s racism in action.
I just feel SO bad for the parents who have to hear this BS all day long. It is just SO outrageous.
I don’t EVEN know why there are so many discussions on this. Everything is obvious. If the facts (that is, the persons involved) had been reverse, “he” would already be in jail and on death row.
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Thank you Linda.
“George started this whole episode, admitted to pulling the trigger and killing Trayvon — who is dead and is not coming back and can’t give his version of events; George is the ONLY person left alive who was there from start to finish…”
Any other attempt at analyzing anything, as far as I am concerned, is like stomping on Trayvon’s tomb again and again. The kid is DEAD and Zimmermann killed him. And his parents, family and friends won’t ever see him again because some racist crossed his path and acted as a racist.
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Riverside_Rob,
How many blows to head can you take, in your expert medical role, before you lose consciousness? can you be knocked out by one blow? Absolutely. Once you’re unconscious, do you think your attacker will cease?
Linda says,
Your last sentence, is YOUR projection of what might happen… most people who find themselves confronted by stranger (the way Trayvon was) would definitely stop and get away from the scene if someone is not conscious or moving….
This is why I don’t like people who try to give a black teenage boys intent and motives based on their own “white” stereotypes and fears that they project onto black people.
and Like I said, it’s non-medical people like yourself that turns a non-medical injury into something it’s not and make a Joke out of this whole episode.
Believe it or not, we, in the medical field, can actually tell if a person is suffering from any ill effects from a head injury, prior to an X-ray…because people get head injuries all the time and they show the typical signs — signs that George did not have…
George wouldn’t have made it past the ER, no one would have wasted time with his cuts because they are superficial….the medics would have taken him to the ER regardless of what he said if he showed any signs of a head injury.
So, keep defending and believing George, the man who studied martial arts for 2 years but he was such a Wuss, that he let a skinny, teenage beat him up…OK
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@jeremiahwagner
I never mentioned stand your ground in my comment. But since you brought it up, yes, that is another one of those weird Floridian laws that needs to get gone.
Along with whatever it was that allowed GZ to go home after admitting to murdering an unarmed kid. No charges pressed. No arrest made.
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@Riverside_Rob
wow thank you for your enlightening link. We had no idea there was violence in our neighborhoods like in Chicago and the like. We of course will start doing something about it right now Because We Have Not Been Trying To Combat Those Ills For The Last 30+ years or anything. But thank you for bringing that to our attention. Its like, we had no idea until you pointed it out.
take yourself to the open thread if you want to discuss off topic things you just found out about and feel the need to interject into a discussion about something completely else.
whoops! there went my last entire can.
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“Riverside_Rob,
One more thing about the Black Brute Sterotype. Are you guys even remotely aware of the increasing violence in Chicago, Milwaukee, and Newark? Black men are killing black men at alarming rates.”
Linda says,
so touching that you care… what about the realism of the KKK and white supremacist who actively kill black people in the South…
http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/neo-nazi-killer-john-ditullio-preens-confesses-to-new-murder-on-tv-show/1239236
The Zimmerman episode happened in Florida, in a town and area where the white people are the Majority population and most of them carry guns (and have always carried guns) and use them quiet frequently… you bringing up cities up North has absolutely nothing to do with this case.
NO flash mobs in Florida and our southern good ole boys aren’t worried about nor are they scared of black people.
that’s why I laugh when they talk about race riots….it’s not white people that have to be worried — it’s the black people in Sanford who have to be worried about the KKK / white supremacist (who are very prominent and active in Sanford, Ocala, and central/north Florida) who have been agitating like h’ll up there and can’t wait to bust heads and claim “black people started it” … I bet you’re not concerned about that, are you.
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i see some attempted derailing smh.
@ linda
lol u shredding ppl today. its crazy how they wanna talk about crime in chicago and other nothern cities but what about where this happened. dangitt this ain’t about chicago this is about florida. idc if it was self defense or not, i care about why they didn’t arrest this fool right away, and had to be protests and marches to get him arrested and tried. If a civilian gets this much cover from law enforcement just imagine how much cover law enforcement gets for doing something like this,,,,, oh wait i don’t have to imagine , i see it they get off scotch free, but at least they do go to trial even if it is a mock trial. So why was this guy above the law, even above the police to be able to go home after trayvon was killed and the police not test him for drugs or anything. That is what ppl should be concerned with that civilians can go kill someone and not be tested or arrested, until people demand it. Apparently people can’t seem to do what is right when nobody is looking and that is pitiful.
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The judge ruled to allow Trayvon’s drug test into evidence. But, oops, they never gave Zimmerman a drug test. See how that works?
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@ Linda
Thanks.
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@Linda
I’m not totally aware of how Florida’s laws work but even if you start a fight and find yourself in a situation where you can’t win, if someone feels that might end in death or serious potential harm wouldn’t that still fall under self-defense?
Honestly “Homie” feels a little out-dated but “cracker” is even more so, thats like 1970’s old school. And if Trayvon said “cracker” than homie isn’t out of the question.
Also; studying martial arts for a couple years doesn’t really mean much; especially if he went to a “McDojo”. That and sparrying really doesn’t prepare you for an honest confrontation as much as many people think.
Sure Trayvon is skinny but he’s an athletic kid in his physical prime whereas Zimmerman is/was an overweight couch-potato.
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Abagond, Mstoogood4yall
Just trying to keep some perspective because these white Zimmerman defenders must not know how it is in the South… that’s why I choose to live in S. Florida…
I did 2 year internship in Tampa…ran back to S. Florida as fast as I could.. I was offered a job in Ocala and I said “not for love or money” — that’s why I feel young Adeen’s pain and I can say emphatically that the word “cracker” is alive and well (but I choose to say “rednecks” instead)
I guess black and white Southerners have played this dance for a long time and have learned to co-exist with each other but for me, it took getting used to –even though blacks and Hispanics said things are way better… if getting the rednecks to not shoot up your house is considered “getting better”, I guess you can call that progress.
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As an echo to Abagond’s post above: I just read this comment on a FB profile (Paradise Gray’s, who has been commenting heavily and very acutely, and has been my only and best media since the beginning of the trial):
“If they admit the trace amount of THC (almost ZERO) that Trayvon’s body tested for. Then they better admit the fact that George Zimmerman was on “Adderall” which is known to cause “worsening mental or mood problems (eg, aggression, anxiety, delusions, depression, hallucination, hostility).”
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V-4,
As an intern, I chased addicts who were withdrawing from drugs and/or alcohol down the hallways and managed to physically restrain them (and I’m a woman) until help arrived…. I learned those moves from my self defense course…
So yes, lets excuse Zimmerman as being a waste of time, money, and space because he was a wuss, who didn’t learn Anything after 2 years.
You know that’s BS, right… 1st few months of any martial arts class and everyone learns forms/kata’s that are effective in physical altercations…and at the time of the episode, Zimmerman was fit and still working out…
so please, I know you mean well but this Loser doesn’t need any more excuses.
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@Awake BW
Self-defense and imperfect self-defense are defenses to violent felonies in all 50 states. Many states place the burden on the prosecutor to prove beyond a reasonable doubt the absence of self-defense when self-defense becomes an issue. Prosecutor’s everywhere don’t bring charges where they believe they won’t be able to get a conviction because they don’t have sufficient evidence to meet their burden of proof. The local DA in Sanford realized he couldn’t prove the absence of self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt because of John Good’s testimony that Trayvon Martin was on top of George Zimmerman and was beating him.
@ Linda
You are absolutely right that Trayvon Martin had the same right of self-defense as George Zimmerman or anyone else. What might be hard to understand here is that the burden is on the State to prove someone guilty, not on the criminal defendant to prove himself innocent.
What that means here is that in order to get a conviction for second degree murder, the State would have to show beyond a reasonable doubt that at the time George Zimmerman pulled the trigger, he did not reasonable believe that he was in danger of death or great bodily harm. This simply is not going to happen because of John Good’s testimony. Most jurors are going to find that the State did not meet its burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt that George Zimmerman did not reasonably believe that he was in danger of death or great bodily harm. There is a reasonable doubt that someone who is on the ground being punched believes he is in danger of death or great bodily harm. You are right that his injuries are not directly relevant to this: what matters is what he believed, and whether his belief was reasonable. But my point is that if you are being punched while you are on the ground, it is impossible to prove that there is no reasonable doubt that you are not afraid of death or great bodily harm.
The State might have a better chance of getting a conviction for manslaughter. If the State could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that George Zimmerman started the fight, but couldn’t prove the absence of self-defense, my understanding is that a jury could still find that this constitutes “imperfect” self-defense, which would allow for a conviction of manslaughter, but not for second degree murder. The problem here is there isn’t enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that George Zimmerman started the fight. Rachel Jeantel gave contradictory accounts to investigators, Zimmerman said Martin attacked him, and Martin isn’t alive to give his side of the story. The State can’t prove beyond a reasonable doubt with the evidence it has showed so far that George Zimmerman started the fight. And because the State can’t meet its burden, it likely won’t be able to convict Zimmerman of manslaughter.
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@Mstoogood4yall
I agree with you that more people should be concerned about the gross lack of professionalism that was demonstrated by the Sanford police department. I think a lot of people think this is just something that affects Black people, but who’s to say it can’t happen to someone who’s not Black? People have a tendency to think it won’t happen to me, but can one ever really say what’s going to happen in life? It’s true that white people’s rights and lives are protected and valued more, but I still think they should be concerned. It’s kind of like those people in Newton, Conneticut who kept saying “I can’t believe this happened here.” Trayvon could very well become a Tyler or Madison.
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jeremiahwagner,
I agree with you that it will be hard for the prosecution to prove 2nd degree but manslaughter is still up in the air and
all we can do is wait and see how the jury feels..
being that this really is a “he say, she say’ case, it’s up to the Jury to decide if they believe George or think he is full of hot air… because unfortunately.. Zimmerman is the only person left alive and his version of events are not the Absolute truth…I’m sure Trayvon would have a different take on things.
as far as Rachel Jeantel, she did not lie in court, she lied to Trayvons parents about her age and why she didn’t go to the funeral — I think George lying and saying that he knew Nothing about SYG and criminal laws of the State of Florida is a little more important and says something about his Character, especially since he is the one defending himself and not Rachel.
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@Linda
You’re on fire today! With regards to your comments about the South, what do you think makes the South so different from other regions of the US? Do you think Southerners are more open and honest about their lack of respect and regard for Black human life? I have lived in the Midwest and now West Coast, but never in the South. I would be interested in your opinion.
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@mochasister
yes alot of whites think things will never happen to them, but they need to know that the government and things test stuff out on black ppl first then their ass is next. just look at cointelpro whites thought ok it just affects blacks so idgaf, now they ass is mad and worried since the government watching them too smh. they complain about tsa at the airports but don’t care about stop and frisk. rofl, when will they learn they are not above as much as they think.
as far as the south i live in tx and these ppl have their confederate flags and things. i lived in cali when i was younger and remember the ppl where we lived were rude and cold and in cali its a lot of country and then some cities in between. they more covert with their racism in the west than in the south, they more open with it and aren’t as pc.
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To Awake BW
The point I raised by speaking of Chicago other cities is to show that the sterotype of “black brute” is alive and well and being strengthened. Despite this sites preference not to speak of it, it exists – and a large portion of the population believe it because they live with it. Those of you who claim George is guilty because he fell afoul of the “black brute sterotype” are in for a disapointment.
Linda – “we in the medical field” – get over yourself. I was a lab technician for many years, both in Maryland and in California. I don’t think you’re a nurse, PA, or physician so get of soap box, you know enough to be dangerous. Anyone getting their head smacked doesn’t know if the next blow will put out the lights, that’s why it was LEGAL for George to shoot Trayvon in self defense. You don’t like it, but tough. Recall the man that was turned into a vegatable in the parking lot of Dodger stadium last year (Bryan Stow). How about those who get hit, fall and crack their heads, some fatally? What do “we in the medical field” say about that? The danger of head trauma is well known within the legal and medical fields, any one being attacked to the head is entitled to defend themselves with force, up to and including deadly force.
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“mochasister,
Do you think Southerners are more open and honest about their lack of respect and regard for Black human life? I have lived in the Midwest and now West Coast, but never in the South. I would be interested in your opinion”
Linda says,
Honestly, I would say yes, white Southerners are more honest about how they feel about black, Hispanic people, non-Southerners, foreigners, etc… I don’t think they are mean about it, as Paula Deen said, “They is who they is”
because even though the laws have changed, the people really haven’t, it’s just different in the South. From my experience, both black and white Southerners know the rules and expects everyone to know their roles.
believe it or not, many of the white Southerners I met were Very nice, very well mannered people — that well known “southern hospitality” but those old Jim Crow attitudes are not dead and neither is the Klan.
I think also think it depends on the location… the bigger towns and cities are more diverse and more tolerant.. but the rural towns, if you’re black and want to move there, do your research.
In Florida, you definitely can see and feel the difference between South Florida and the rest of Florida.
I think the Florida white southerners are aware that they can’t be openly racist and generally are not but they are not shy when it comes to saying how they feel about race or even about themselves, many are “proud” to be Rednecks.
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“Riverside_Rob
@ Linda – “we in the medical field” – get over yourself. I was a lab technician for many years, both in Maryland and in California. I don’t think you’re a nurse, PA, or physician so get of soap box, you know enough to be dangerous.”
Linda says,
Whatever you say, Rob… as a lab tech, you didn’t do assessments and aren’t certified to tell a hematoma from a subdural or intracranial bleed, so you can keep your cheap analysis of my credentials to yourself… you don’t know me or who I am.
You’re full of sh’t and trying to make much ado about nothing … a seizure can cause someone to fall and hit their heads too…
did George need a shunt? was he concussed? like I said, people who are not in the Medical field like to talk about issues they don’t know about that WE in the medical profession deal with all the time.
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Linda – you still don’t get it. It isn’t the severity of the injuries sustained that warrant self defense – it’s the danger of injuries that could be inflicted. It’s a simple point, but one of is too full of sh’t to grasp it. People get shot all the time just for making furtive movements – not even causing injury. It’s the type of thing “We in the Law Enforcement fiedl” deal with all the time. How about you keeping your nose on your side of the fense and I’ll do the same?
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So, now you’re in law enforcement, Rob… you’re a busy man.
And if anyone should keep their nose on their side, it’s you, since you saw fit to throw shade on me first with you’re smarta’s statements.
The point is, people don’t have to have physical injuries to claim self-defense, so you’re arguments don’t have legs.
You also watch too much TV, people with head injuries that are not “Traumatic” or caused by MVA’s don’t die immediately… they die later related to untreated hemorrhages, unless they have a ruptured aneurysm … if people died “all the time” from falling and bumping your head (as you are alleging), then many Neuro wards would have nothing to do.
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@Linda… Ha! I thought the same thing is possible. (As far as they both are screaming) Let’s look at this scenario as a possibility.
#1) George did start the initial confrontation by following the boy over zealously and ignoring dispatch.
#2)Trayvon started the physical part of the confrontation over reacting to what really could be looked at as a nusy neighbor. He really didn’t have to do what he did. If he was really fearful get off the phone and call your dad… run home.
#3)A fight breaks out…. Knowing he had a gun and been got the better of in the fight Zimmerman does fear for his life and goes for the gun screaming because he feels like it’s now him or Trayvon.
#4)Trayvon now realizes George has a gun and panics himself.. maybe he does go for it after he sees George go for it because he now fears for his life and starts screaming himself.. Especially after George gets to and controls the gun first. (This is all speculation after Linda says there could be two screaming voices)
#5)A Blow to the head and nose absolutely could cloud your judgement on what happened next, so cloudy testimony from George after that may be a result of the blows.
If it is as you say and there is two screams consecutively how can you in good conscience give a result of second degree murder.
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In that scenario I speculate… If that happened and Trayvon got to the gun first and shot George out of fear you couldn’t give him second degree either.
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Linda,
You said “The point is, people don’t have to have physical injuries to claim self-defense, so you’re arguments don’t have legs.”
We agree on that point. I thought your position was that George was guilty of murder because his injuries were not severe enough. Are you saying that George faked his injuries when he didn’t need to?
…people with head injuries that are not “Traumatic” or caused by MVA’s don’t die immediately… they die later related to untreated hemorrhages, unless they have a ruptured aneurysm … if people died “all the time” from falling and bumping your head (as you are alleging), then many Neuro wards would have nothing to do.
I argued neither “die all the time” nor “died right then”. What difference does it make for a victim to die immediately following an attack or several days later when they’re removed from life support? Brain injuries are no joke, they can be life changing events – life ending too.
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Interesting scenarios, Dave…
Here’s one that I thought about… basing this on what I consider to be typical behaviors of teenagers/Adult interaction and information from the trial… a little longer than yours.
1) George is following in his car and Trayvon see’s him and tells his friend on the phone.
2) Trayvon gets nervous and tries to lose George by running. (as stated by George on 911 tape that “he’s running”)
Since Trayvon is unfamiliar with the condo complex, he loses his bearings and starts walking and looking around to try and locate his father’s girlfriends townhouse. He continues to talk on the phone and he describes everything he is doing to his friend – because that’s what teenagers do, they like to share information.
3) George catches up with him and startles Trayvon, who then asks him “what are you following me for” — trying to show a little bravery in a scary situation and he also probably feels a little safe because his friend is on the phone.
4) George doesn’t identify himself as Neighborhood watch but instead asks Trayvon, “what are you doing here” and George starts reaching for his cell phone (which George stated he did on the tape he made) and at this point, Trayvon becomes scared because George is a strange man, who was following him in the dark.
5) Trayvon sees George reaching for “something”, possible sees the gun, turns and tries to leave, and George reaches out (maybe grabs his arm) to try and stop or restrain Trayvon from leaving.
6) Since it’s raining, this action of George trying to restrain Trayvon causes them both to lose their footing and both fall to the ground, (noise Rachel Jeantel heard with Trayvon saying “get off of me”).
George hits the back of his head when they fell and Trayvon was able to punch George in the nose in order to get away — George makes the first yelping sounds that the neighbors hear.
7) Trayvon manages to run a few steps and George catches up, they struggle, falling again because the ground is wet and they both have trouble keeping their footing, and both are yelling at the other.
8) Trayvon lands on top and starts to hit George or struggles with George. He is getting the better of George and George starts screaming for help since he knew the cops were coming or once he saw John Good (who was the first neighbor to come outside and spoke to the pair)
9) George sees that John Good went back into the house (especially since John Goode told both George and Trayvon he was calling the police). Being that it was dark, George had no way of noticing if Trayvon saw his gun or was going for his gun
10) I believe at this point, George pulled his gun, took it off safety and pointed it at Trayvon, who started to scream for “help” and started pulling away from George.
11) George grabbed Trayvon’s jacket to keep him from leaving (because he didn’t want another one of those a’sholes to get away) — Trayvon started screaming again for help and screams “No, don’t” as George pulls the trigger, thinking if he just wounds Trayvon, he won’t get away.
So, here we are 1 year later — with adult George having to account for his actions and a 17 year old boy who will never get a chance to grow up.
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We’re never going to know the truth, are we? :-\
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@Linda that is possible. I just don’t think he is that evil. I did think he was at first but not now. But I think it happened during the struggle… not after. He should get manslaughter. 5-10 years good behavior.
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“He really didn’t have to do what he did. If he was really fearful get off the phone and call your dad… run home.”
If george was really fearful he could’ve stayed in his car or drove off. but i guess he watched too many hollyweird movies where the white person always get their dumb arse out the car and goes looking around and is killed. smh. if im fearful i lock my doors and roll up the windows. The only ppl i know that will go toward danger are firefighters,superheroes,and the police, george was neither so he need to sit down.
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@Mstoogood… Very true, that is why that was #1 in the scenarios I laid out. In fact that is one that we know for sure to be true because he is the one who called the cops at first. I don’t think he would kill him in cold blood at that point because he has no idea when the squad car will pull up.
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in a white supremacy racist world Zimmerman’s fantastic lies make sense. The laws are the L=Legal A=Arms of W= White S=Supremacy…..
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I think GZ pride was bruised and he felt emasculated. In a split second, GZ felt like Robocop killed Trayvon. Thinking he did a good deed, from all the recent burglaries that were going down in the neighborhood. Racial profiling to the tee.
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Dave, I agree with you.. he should get manslaughter… I don’t think he should just get to walk away…. As an adult, he was irresponsible, impulsive and used bad judgment.
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These laws have got to change or at least be equal. its ok for white ppl to stand there ground but not blacks.
http://www.politicususa.com/2012/04/15/whites-only-stand-your-ground.html
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whites are just shooting anybody they deem suspicious and getting away with it. http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/05/30/2075961/with-stand-your-ground-laws-still-standing-two-alabama-shooters-escape-liability/
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@dave
“But I think it happened during the struggle… not after. He should get manslaughter.”
Does it not strike you as odd that so many people are justifying a killer’s actions? I take it you would have no problem defending Crystal Scott as well.
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@mstoogood
Have you noticed we have been losing our rights in this country? That is one you don’t want to lose… the right to defend the lives of you and your family. I think that is something we can all agree with. Lately it’s like we’ve all been playing a giant game of whack-a-mole. Ever play that in the old arcades? There is nine mole holes and you can only hit one at a time when they pop up. The gay rights people just won one in the supreme court. But around the same time five other “right taking moles” popped up and we lost some rights. Like the right to sue companies like Monsanto that have been poisoning us (all of us) with insecticides for years and now have taken over the EPA (The head of the epa used to be a big wig with Monsanto) He helped shape a bill that says Monsanto is free from all public Litigation…. even if they gave you cancer and made you sterile. That is what gun control is about… it’s about control. There are many others. The entire bill of rights is now under attack. That’s 10 moles I don’t want to hit. We need to come together now to stop this. This is why the Florida vs. Zimmerman trial is on every channel, not just for ratings. Let’s join together and beat the thugs that have infiltrated our government…. then we can fight. (Really I don’t want to fight at all BP are cool as hell)
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@resw77 I’m not totally defending him. I’m giving you my honest opinion. I haven’t looked at the case you are referring to. I’ll do it now.
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When Zimmerman gets off because the Prosecution seems to be throwing this case on purpose… I hope people don’t think about rioting instead boycott. Cuz they want us to riot. #Boycott
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To Be Expected….. White Supremacy at it finest, a case study of the legal system of White Supremacy for many years to come. Hope this case becomes an absolute must study for all VORs…..
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@resw77 I read the case the road rage incident with Crystal Scott. You know what… she should get off if it is as she said. I had a cop go nuts on me over a fender bender. I had to give him $200 and I thought it was his fault. I was worried cause I did have a couple and was probably under the alcohol limits but I don’t trust cops when it comes to us vs. them. That’s why he didn’t go through his insurance. He was leaving a bar in his civilian vehicle.
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I think you all need to see this:
http://storify.com/SherriWrites/angry-trayvon-game-disgusts-social-media?utm_campaign=&utm_medium=sfy.co-twitter&awesm=sfy.co_qASS&utm_source=t.co&utm_content=storify-pingback
There’s a video game called “Angry Trayvon” and…well, you just have to see for yourself.
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@ dave
“I’m not totally defending him. I’m giving you my honest opinion.”
I don’t doubt it’s your honest opinion, but it’s an opinion that appears to justify a murder.
“she should get off if it is as she said.”
Well police said her testimony corroborated with the other eyewitnesses’ accounts.
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@ jade
Yea boycotting would be better than rioting, as the police and whites will be waiting with their guns. we don’t need more casualities.
@ brothawolf
WOw that video game is so dam sick. I’m not surprised nothing in this country surprises me any more. That is so disrespectful, then they had the nerve to say it doesn’t meet requirments to be removed, then they finally removed it smh. Then they gave the ole we are not racist blah blah. U let a black person make fun of a white person being dead or killed and we are bad. Sheit i could make fun of anna nicole, and say nasty things about her, but i don’t. BUt they stay making fun of whitney houston and other blacks that have made it on more than their good looks.
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watching the trial now- an interesting example of racism and white supremacy. Trial on lunch, listening to the legal pundits on Fox network, they are bashing the prosecution’s Medical Examinor because he is non white(asian) versus the defense hired gun Medical examiner, they even making fun ao the way the asian talk, said he was unintelligible. Not easy watching this trial, actually it is quite painful because I too am a mother of 2 black males but I must watch it and learn from it…… No Matter WHAT
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wow i never heard of crystal scott before. Black ppl are not allowed to defend ourselves. I didn’t think much would change considering they didn’t allow blacks to own guns, now that some do they can’t use it, so they might as well not even have one, if the law isn’t going to protect them when they protect themselves. Then when they go to prison they can’t own a gun anymore. same thing different tactic. i was reading about other cases in houston where cops killed civilians in cold blood and got off, even when there was video evidence.smh.
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No matter how you twist it, Trayvon was not doing anything wrong when Zimmerman attacked him. There was no reason for him to even approach Trayvon. Zimmerman is guilty of premeditated murder of an innocent child. Even if he is not convicted, God will judge him accordingly.
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I couldn’t imagine having two sons C. Andrews or close black male relatives. I grew up with just me and my mother. After reading a message board where 95% of the whites defending Zimmerman and slandering Trayvon’s parents of all people, I have a certain fear in me now and know how many people really think. They feel it’s ok if a black person is attacked PERIOD which has me AWARE now particularly when traveling out of “safe zones” I am doing things like going the EXACT speed limit, etc
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I haven’t watched the trial but the prosecutor didn’t really seem like he wanted to “prosecute” during the small snippet I saw on the news. Anyone know what’s going on? Couldn’t the parents get a different lawyer?
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I believe prosecutors are assigned to the case by the state so they have no say. I wouldn’t be surprised if he also thinks Zimmerman is innocent too.
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I am from Toronto Canada and not privy to the laws of the US or Florida for that matter, but I am human and have been following this from the beginning and do not understand how this trial could be playing out the way it has been. Zimmerman decided to follow Trayvon, he decided to get out of his vehicle and continue to pursue Trayvon, which through out all of his recounts of the events that dreadful day has referred to Trayvon as a “suspect.” Using that term to describe Trayvon shows how he viewed Trayvon before anything even took place. The facts seems so clear from what I see. Trayvon went to the store, this has been proven true. Trayvon was walking in the rain (which doesn’t seem “suspect” to anyone else in this world!) while on the phone with a friend. I am not sure how US criminals work, but it seems silly that a thief or robber would be on the phone while he scouted a house to invade. He no doubt expressed his concern with being followed, so at what point can we not come to the conclusion that Trayvon acted in self-defense not Zimmerman. That the marks on Zimmerman were acts of self-defense on Trayvon’s part and not an act of aggression. We must remember it was Zimmerman that was packing a gun, where Trayvon was packing a pack of skittles and a can of iced tea. It makes no sense that this CHILD would run as indicated by Zimmerman on the 911 call, and than later hide in the non-existing bushes to ambush him. Once they showed the actual lay out and how open the area was – and that Trayvon was on his way to his own home – it was case closed for me. Why if Trayvon was a head of him would he just stop and wait to go after this guy – who really in Trayvon’s mind was a potential danger to him! It also does not make sense that Zimmerman said that he shot this boy while the boy was on him, was than able to move Trayvon under himself and spread his arms out when Trayvon was found on his stomach with his arms under him. It makes more sense that Zimmerman attacked Trayvon. Trayvon gave him a good go back, and Zimmerman acted in haste and shot Trayvon as Trayvon got off of him. At that point Trayvon grabbed his chest in shock and fell to his knees and then face down to his death. Further more as far as the defense stating that it was Trayvon who struck first, I don’t know one individual that would prepare them selves for a fight and then throw their first punch with their WRONG HAND. If Zimmerman gets off – it will be a sad day for everyone, especially for Trayvon and his family that truly deserves justice at the very least.
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@kimka22@hotmail.com no one here is condoning Zimmerman, he is an criminal, needs be punished for his crime.
But not think Trayvon is innocent – In true Trayvon has been banished for three days for using Majurianna.
Who knows if Zimmerman killed Trayvon based on racism or it’s only a non-racist crime?
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Wow !!! I am glued to foxnews looking at the arguement the defense hired a forensic computer expert who is also a lawyer. It seems they have several texts ofbetween Trayvon and his freinds talking about fights he was involved with, other texts to a freind where Trayvon is suppose to be trying to buy and sell guns and some pics he had hidden on his phoneof pics of guns. They are trying to smear Trayvon, I hope the judge does not allow this into evidence not the animated movie the defense had made based on George Zimmerman’s version of events….. these people are really on their grind.
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Trayvon using marijuana does not make him culpable in this situation. Trayvon having trace amounts of marijuana in his system has no merit in this case. The experts can’t even testify given those levels if Trayvon used marijuana that day or days prior. It has also been conclude that it could be transfer from another person because the amounts were so little (not saying that was the case – just the point that the levels were so minimal). Also we need to remember that Zimmerman is a multi-racial Hispanic American, not a white person. As a white person I am fully against Zimmerman’s actions, and truly believe he DID racial profile Trayvon. As far as the text messages and pictures and such from Trayvon’s phone if that should be allowed and people are considering this as evidence of Trayvon’s character so should that fact that Zimmerman was charged in 2005 with “resisting officer with violence” and “battery of law enforcement officer,” both which are third-degree felonies. The charges were later reduced to “resisting officer without violence” and then later waived when he entered an alcohol education program. As well as the fact that also in 2005 Zimmerman’s ex-fiancé was granted a restraining order claiming domestic violence.
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I’ve noticed FoxNews has mostly bias on one side, and MSNBC(lean forward so I can f you over) is biassed on the other side. Surprisingly CNN has been pretty fair depending on which show you watch, or which host. I think they are all controlled media..
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It is 9″30 pm and the trial is STILL going on overtime… these racist people are TRULY amazing, I once heard somewhere that the defense made zimmerman gain some weight for the trial. I laughed when I first heard this because it made no sense to me, well it is makin plenty of sense now. The defense is arguing before the judge to have introduced into evidence over 8000 texts, some were deleted, the computer forensic expert Richard Conner is also a lawyer !!!!! In these texts trayvon is talking about fights and breaking someone nose. They also seek to introduce Trayvon profile pic and the judge asked for relevancy, they said it shows how buff Trayvon’s body was as compared to fat pudgy Zimmerman and how strong Trayvon appeared….. This is very very sic. I think the prosecution is pretty week. Have to wait until tomorrow to see if judge allows it. Even if she does not allow it I guess that will be grounds for appeals…
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@C Andrews I don’t think you can re try someone on appeal.. that’s called double jeopardy. I think only appeals work for the defense. I could be wrong on that.
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Oh I see what you are saying now… @C Andrews I misunderstood you. You are saying that if she doesn’t allow evidence and he is found guilty it could be grounds for appeals… I think you will have that regardless in this case.
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George Zimmerman is guilty of murder! Anyone with common sense should realize that. I have read blogs ad forums of MANY Caucasians disregarding Trayvon’s life and siding with Zimmerman. Many of them feel that Zimmerman did it out of self defense. Or they say that Trayvon got what ”was coming to him”.
@C Andrews
I agree with your premise. If Trayvon was White, there would have been a huge outcry, trust me. Sad to say but Black lives don’t mean anything to White America.
@Dave
C Andrews is right.
Honestly I hope Zimmerman serves some jail time and gets charged with either manslaughter or first degree murder. He is a sick criminal who deserves justice to what he did to Trayvon.
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Bottom line is exactly as Agabond predicted. On the one hand, every sentient person knows in his heart of hearts that this confrontation would not have occurred at this level if Trayvon hadn’t been black. It’s clear from Zimmerman’s own statements in his multiple 911 calls. Because of Trayvon’s race and gender and age and overall physiognomy, Zimmeman elected to initiae a hostile confrontation while armed with a Tec 9.
On the other hand, the defense has been using the “Black Brute” trope to convince the jury that Trayvon’s response was a hyperaggressive physical assault that was entirely disproportionate to the situation and caused Zimmerman to legitimately fear for his life.
Of course, the only living witness to that crucial moment is Zimmerman himself. Thus, the entire case hinges on whether the juries believe Zimmerman’s self-serving statements. The jury is free to believe, or disblieve, any witness in the trial. There is plenty of inconsistenty and dishonesty within Zimmerman’s statements, as well as other reasons to impugn his integrity, easily enough to give a jury a reason to disbelieve him. From where I sit, pretty much the only reason a jury would believe him is if it buys into the “Black Brute” trope.
I personally don’t harbor high hopes that this jury of Florida crackers will be particularly enlightened on these issues. Time will tell.
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This case should never had been taken to trial. If this was a black man who shot a punk white kid in self defense, the black man would have been considered a hero. But because black Americans want to blame everyone else for thier problems other than themselves, they become blind to the truth in the mirror. I’m sure you people will call me a racist for making this comment, but nothing could be further from the truth. I see too many cases where black Americans are being racist themselves by blaming racism in a situation where there is none. Trevon was a punk. He had a history of such with his past troubles and crimes and desires of wanting to fight. I for one will not bow down to the false racist accusations by blacks in this country against myself or people like George Zimmerman. Trevon got himslf in the wrong situation.
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2John, funny that you mention a black man shooting a whte kid would have different results, this is EXACTLY what happened about a year or so ago, if any poster have more details about please refresh my memory but This was an older black man in his early seventies and he shot to death a white man I believe in his early twenties , he was IMMEDIATELY found guilty and sentenced to spend the rest of his life in greater confinement aka jail. I remember there were some protest and it made news for a day or two , it was compared to the Trayvon Martin incidence ….I say this to tell you John that you are definitely WRONG by thinking that such a thing as BLACK PRIVILEDGE even exist- It doesnt exist … there is another case in Florida getting scant media attention with a white male shooting an unarmed black 17 yr old kid to death over blasting music in a car he was a passenger in, he done already changed his story to match up with Zimmerman’s defense, Mistah Charlie is definitely on his grind…..
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I agree with most of what you said. I used to believe TM did sucker punch GZ, and perhaps he was egged on to do this by Deedee. However, I no longer believe that is the most likely scenario. I think GZ lied a lot and I think he tried to detain TM, and TM naturally resisted and was then murdered. Small point to make; everyone says that it had to be TM that was screaming because after the gunshot the screaming ended. The screaming would stop no matter who was screaming. If TM was screaming and GZ shot him, he’d stop as you stated. BUT, if GZ was screaming and then shot TM, who he claims was trying to kill him, the screaming would still stop as GZ would have killed/stopped the threat he was screaming over.
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Jen,
don’t know if you ever held a gun but I can tell you, it’s a Very empowering thing.
Not too many people challenge someone who has a gun pointed at them and most definitely, the person with the gun is the one in charge of the situation.
I think that black people in America need to go buy guns and take these weapons/self defense courses, so that they become aware of just what white people are hearing and learning.
and if a large number of black people bought guns legally and carried concealed weapons/ permits, I bet you any amount of money, that the NRA would lobby and Congress would change gun laws faster than you can change your underwear.
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“John,
Trevon was a punk. He had a history of such with his past troubles and crimes and desires of wanting to fight.”
Linda says,
Whatever John, white people like you are the real problems in this country…
white people like you are delusional and think you have the right to tell everyone what is right and wrong but you have a problem excepting YOUR contributions to the racial problems in American society…. problems that white people started in this country … so keep living in your land of confusion.
and by the way, the real punk in this story is the 28 year old Adult, Zimmerman, who had a history of ADD, who takes Anxiety medications (Adderall and Temazepam — neurological altering medications), who also got arrested for fighting with a police officer and for domestic violence.
http://newsone.com/2016433/george-zimmerman-drugs/
http://rollingout.com/culture/george-zimmerman-son-of-a-retired-judge-has-3-closed-arrests/
and the 17 year old teenager had no criminal record and got in trouble over teenage issues that are typical… since when did white kids stop fighting and smoking weed?
so we have a violent, woman-beating, child molester vs a typical teenager…
hmmm yeah, the teen sure looks real “scary” here compared to the 3 times Arrested (1 felony) Zimmerman
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@John
“If this was a black man who shot a punk white kid in self defense, the black man would have been considered a hero”
Zimmerman actually can’t claim self defense b/c he was the instigator. Had Zimmerman shot a white, blond-haired girl, would you be taking this position?
“But because black Americans want to blame everyone else for thier problems other than themselves,”
No, some of them are blaming the guy who admittedly killed an unarmed minor.
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John:
….Trevon got himslf in the wrong situation.
Yeah, most teenagers ‘arm’ themselves with a bag of Skittles when they are on the look out for trouble. What a piece of Sh*t!
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Linda- no I haven’t used a hand gun. I have held one once and I have used a rifle and did do some target shooting as a kid.
I can imagine it’s a very empowering thing and that obviously in the wrong person’s hands, it’s deadly.
I can’t believe that I honestly thought GZ was innocent for so long. I think I wanted to believe that he was innocent.
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@Linda I read the reports you stated about the entire police history of Zimmerman.. it is pretty benign. Cops charge people with resisting all the time and it is unfounded and cleared some times even if your Dad isn’t a judge. I read a case recently where the cop broke his fist punching a perp in the head and the cop still charged the man with assault on an officer.
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Dave, you are missing the point. Zimmerman has a history of entitlement and violence.
Here are his own words on that “benign” incident, which shows his propensity for putting himself into situations that can escalate into something else:
http://www.examiner.com/article/george-zimmerman-arrested-for-assaulting-officer-charges-dropped
The charge was reduced to “resisting officer without violence” and then waived when he entered an alcohol education program. Witness accounts indicate he shoved an officer who was questioning a friend for alleged underage drinking at an Orange County bar.
So, George seems to have a history of getting into fights, then claiming “self defense” and of course, this is another “he say/she say” — witnesses stated George started it but of course, George uses the excuse that he didn’t know the guy was a cop and that he pushed his first.
Like a said, George has a history of starting “sh’t” and knows how to talk himself out of it.
He states “I would never touch a police officer” — but he sure was willing to touch a “strange” guy that was arguing with his friend.
his “deer in the headlights” facial expressions does not mirror his actual knowledge and experience — he is not as dumb as he looks.
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@Linda It was a plain clothes officer, I think that is just as irrelevant as talking about Trayvon’s character.. it happened so long ago….. That said I’m looking at the facts of the case and after the prosecution’s closing arguments earlier I was swayed again. In the direction of the DA’s office. He at least should get manslaughter as it stands now. It really is a close case.
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The lead prosecutor ripped him a new one. I didn’t realize how many stories that he told that didn’t add up.
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Now will the defense say .. “Well after getting your butt handed to you maybe you can’t really remember everything right away then you start to put the pieces together later and come up with more of a true tale later” I can see that. However,….This is what I thought to myself. …Even if that kid beat my butt could I then shoot him? The answer is no. Looking at his mom and dad in the courtroom was powerful… I have kids myself. He profiled him , so even if he did fear for his life it was based on his own bias.
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The fact that he knew he had the gun added to that fear. He thought to himself after losing the fight…”What if this guy gets my gun” .. I’m for gun rights , but maybe this guy shouldn’t have had one.
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Abagond, I have three serious questions for you, which hopefully you won’t take offsense at. Anyone else who wants to answer these is also welcome. I am geniunely curious.
1. Given the exact same set of facts and evidence, with roles reversed, if it was a black guy who killed a hispanic guy he thought might be an intruder, and the hispanic guy had used the “n” word when referring to the black guy who was following him, would you still be convinced of the black man’s guiilt beyond even a reasonable doubt and wiilling to sentence him to death or life in prison for murder (rather than say manslaughter)?
2. Do you think OJ Simpson killed that white girl?
3. Did you think OJ Simpson killed that white girl back when the trial was going on and why? (my sense was that the black community very strongly believed OJ was wrongly accused at the time.)
Hoping you and others may provide honest answers, rather than deflecting these questions.
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biff,
A lot of young hispanic people use the n-word thinking it is ok for them to use it since they relate more to African-Americans than white Americans. They use it in the same manner that black kids use it. You’ll note that Trayvon also called GZ the n-word.
I don’t believe in the death penalty for anyone, but I’d be happy with 2nd degree murder or manslaughter.
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biff:
1. Given the exact same set of facts and evidence, with roles reversed, if it was a black guy who killed a hispanic guy he thought might be an intruder, and the hispanic guy had used the “n” word when referring to the black guy who was following him, would you still be convinced of the black man’s guiilt beyond even a reasonable doubt and wiilling to sentence him to death or life in prison for murder (rather than say manslaughter)?
2. Do you think OJ Simpson killed that white girl?
3. Did you think OJ Simpson killed that white girl back when the trial was going on and why? (my sense was that the black community very strongly believed OJ was wrongly accused at the time.)
Hoping you and others may provide honest answers, rather than deflecting these questions.
1. I know that in the U.S, the definition of a hispanics race varies but, being from outside the U.S, to my thinking this Zimmerman is now what I would call white so whilst I personally cannot stand the ‘n’ word, the facts are still the facts. An unarmed adolescent would still have been killed, the perpetrators past show near convictions of being gung ho with his use of violence and generally abrasive behaviour so the answer is yes, he should be sentenced.
For the record, I dont think civilians should be trusted with guns (I dont really think the police should be either but there are times when there are exceptions to the rule).
2. Are you talking about his wife? Is this who you are talking about? I think OJ Simpson probably did kill his wife BUT and a BIG but, I did not follow the trial indepth.
But, at the time, I also felt that Kennedy family member was guilty of rape (cant remember his name) and at a similar time, I think that Tyson was not the brute that he was made out to be at the time but again and a BIG but, that was then and I didnt follow it particularly in depth.
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OJ Simpson is off topic here except for direct comparisons with the Zimmerman case.
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Abagond, I respectfully, disagree (but, it’s your blog, so it’s obviously your call). What I am trying to do is to prove a point. If you didn’t ever jump on the OJ bandwagon and you really think you could convict a black guy on the same facts (you have to put yourself in that position, and imagine a majority of your fellow blacks might strongly disagree with you if you did say guilty), then your reasoning is not motivated by racial prejudice.
However, my sense is that a lot of blacks feel they have something personally invested in this case (maybe whites too). I also felt this in the OJ case.
However, when I read your and similar analyses of the case, it doesn’t scream guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, though you try to avoid evidencing that your analysis is colored by your own prejudice. There is limited evidence here, I think, and some evidence that favors the defense (i.e., the only witnesses seem confused as to who was on top of whom, and it’s clear Zim did sustain certain damages). I read other analyses on primarily white user sites and they don’t see any clear cut case for conviction the way you do.
Maybe there is racial prejudice all around, but I don’t see hard evidence to convict here.
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@biff
For me if GZ were black and was in a presence of mind that white boys “always got away” with robbing my neighborhood plus Z’s history of macho-man tactics and instigating fights I would think he was guilty. Like many people, I was incredulous that OJ could commit a murder, I mean clean-cut OJ? Then I learned about the issues between him and Denise, his abuse of her, the 911 calls combined with the fact that women abusers often escalate to murdering their spouses it became clear. So I don’t feel that many blacks are blinded by their “prejudices” as regards Zimmerman. With OJ, I feel that was more a case of hero worship than any racial prejudice, per say. However, I definitely feel non-whites who wish to see GZ acquitted are swayed by more by their prejudices.
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I think what happened was a tragic misunderstanding. It was a dark, creepy, rainy night. They were both afraid of each other. Rachel warned Trayvon that the man might be a sex offender. Trayvon heard the truck door and footsteps behind him and decided the guy was a homosexual rapist tracking him down. Instead of going home a terrified Trayvon punched George (choosing fight in the fight-or flight response, as most 17 year old boys would do), and the “homie” reference was probably him calling George gay. He warned George he was going to die that night probably not trying to legitimately kill him, but out of anger, but just the same as any 17 year old boy would do in a fight.
Whether it was losing the fist fight or legitimately fearing Trayvon was reaching for the gun we’ll never know, we’ll never know George’s intent, which is why I think he will be found not guilty. I don’t think the prosecution’s statement that Trayvon couldn’t have known the gun was there is true, he could have easily felt it with his leg during the fight.
George should not have gotten out of the car, but that part wasn’t illegal. Trayvon should not have stayed around and punched George, but honestly if he was a white boy and no one had died, chances are very strong that a battery charge would have been dropped because it would have been considered self-defense. If George had died instead, Trayvon would probably be in prison, especially because they would have included his history. The kid wasn’t exactly the boy scout his 12 year old photo makes him appear to be. He also wasn’t the monster that those photos taken from other websites that weren’t his made him appear to be.
A misunderstanding does not equal malice or require George to let Trayvon kill him. And even though that probably wasn’t Trayvon’s intent, George didn’t know that. He heard the words and got scared, and did what he thought he needed to to protect his life. The whole situation was horrible. Morally, George may be culpable, but criminally, I don’t think he was.
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“dave
@Linda It was a plain clothes officer, I think that is just as irrelevant as talking about Trayvon’s character.”
Linda says,
Dave, Zimmerman’s character is being discussed by me because I was responding to another poster, who was trying to justify Trayvon being killed because he had some kind of “past” history….
Most white people who are defending Zimmerman, dismiss George’s history of drug use and violence and for whatever reason, act like George was some unsuspecting dork who didn’t start the altercation…George has a history of starting problems.
Case in point, the commenter Katy, who (once again) seems to believe that Trayvon had some kind of violent history and doesn’t take into account that George has a history of violence and impulsiveness… what does getting in trouble with school have to do with George following and confronting Trayvon.
Trayvon didn’t follow George nor can we believe anything George that comes out of his mouth (such as Trayvon hitting him first) because George has a history twisting narratives to suit his purposes.
But white people always want to push and project their stereotypes of black teenagers/people out into the stratosphere, as if their fears are gospel and truth
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@ Linda
Exactly, it’s as if whatever a “white” man says it is the gospel Truth no deviation whatsoever. Of course Zimmerman is telling the truth, why would he need to lie. That’s why the police never arrested him in the first place. Only in Amerikkka *sickening*
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I didn’t say or insinuate that Trayvon had any sort of violent history, or that it has anything to do with the only thing that matters in this case, which is only about who was the aggressor and whether it was reasonable for George to fear for his life or grave injury.
It’s not really about the completely reasonable assumption that George was creeping Trayvon out; what matters is what happened after that – and waiting around and breaking his nose was an act of aggression and there is no evidence otherwise. There’s speculation, but speculation isn’t evidence.
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But Katy, who cares if Trayvon punched George in the nose…the question if Why did he find it necessary?
maybe because George hit Trayvon first or was physically trying to hold and detain Trayvon and Trayvon had to do something “aggressive” to get George to let him go…
you can’t tell any of us that George was not the Aggressor regardless of his nose (which was not broken by the way if you followed the testimony of the pathologist and Georges primary PA) … no one was there for the actual physical fight, so any “evidence” you try to refer is not real.
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Isn’t saying TM waited around speculation? We know GZ was in pursuit of Trayvon so doesn’t that matter? A man with a gun was in pursuit of someone and that person wound up dead. Seems like it should matter.
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Both George and Rachel said Trayvon was running away. When Trayvon got off the phone with Rachel he told her he was at his home. He hung up and there was a 4 minute gap from then until the woman who saw the fight at the T intersection get started. So either he lied to Rachel and was hiding nearby (I don’t think that’s likely as George might have heard him), or he decided that George needed to be taught a lesson and he went back to find him.
Trayvon going back to find him seems extremely reasonable to me. I have several family members, some of whom are women, who have made similar confrontations when they were teens. I don’t think Trayvon lied to Rachel. I think they decided together that George was a rapist and Trayvon hung up the phone, and his anger and upset at the previous days (and maybe he was completely innocent in the school thing and he was angry about that too), and now there’s a creepy ass rapist stalking him? I think he decided to fix it. Unfortunately both George and Trayvon were wrong, and unfortunately George had a gun.
Lots and lots and lots of teenage boys do something like that, go back and confront men who they think have done them or their honor wrong. And if George had turned out to be a sex offender, everyone would have called Trayvon a hero while simultaneously discouraging anyone from repeating his actions. But George wasn’t a rapist. He was just a neighborhood watch guy who happened to have a gun. A terrible, terrible situation. Morally George shouldn’t have left his truck. He will lose a civil suit against him. But criminally, all George needed was to be afraid to pull a trigger. That’s the law in Florida.
I’ve lived all over the country, and I think Florida is the worst place I’ve ever lived for racism. It’s one of the reasons I don’t live there anymore. There are probably lots of terrible cases of misjustice there, I believe that. I just don’t think this case is that clear. I think they were both afraid of each other and Trayvon decided to teach George a lesson and went back to track him down. They were both afraid, they were both wrong, and the misunderstanding turned into tragedy. That seems most reasonable to me. This case doesn’t seem like hate. I could easily be wrong, but the thing is there isn’t evidence to prove I am wrong, just guesses and assumptions and the assumption it was about hate.
I know evil people exist, but I don’t think George is evil or hateful. I think this was just a tragedy.
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The closing rebuttal by the prosecution. Utterly stellar:
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Katy,
All speculation. Is it only reasonable to speculate in favor of GZ?
Rachel didn’t say he hung up. She said she heard GZ confront TM and then the phone fell and the call was cut.
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Legally, in a criminal case all speculation HAS to be in GZ’s favor, that’s what presumption of innocence means.
When this is all over, in a civil court Trayvon’s family will probably be awarded millions of dollars simply because George got out of the car.
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@ Katy
George Zimmerman is a monster.
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@ abagond
You don’t know he’s a monster. You assume he’s a monster. You might be right. But you’re not God, cannot read his intent, and don’t KNOW he’s a monster.
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Katy,
Any grown man that would fellow a 17-year-old and pick a fight with him, ultimately killing him, IS a monster no matter what the 17-year-old did that others may think is “wrong” even though they would most likely say it’s typical if the child had been white.
No one can dispute the fact that if the colors of GZ and TM were switched, GZ would have been arrested from the get go. No questions asked. Nothing he would say would fly with most people, particularly whites.
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And Katy,
If the colors of GZ and TM were switched, people would call GZ a murderous thug, a wanna-be gangster or a typical black male criminal. He would be living proof of black-on-white crime that a lot of white people believe is getting out of control. He would be proof that black violence is getting out of hand. He would be seen as a violent criminal because he is black. His face would be plastered on every almost news site and every hate site online. Period.
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Katy,
I don’t know the legal definitions, but presuming and speculating don’t mean the same thing in standard english.
You making up motives and actions for Trayvon that contradict the actual evidence isn’t part of presuming GZ is innocent.
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@ Katy
The presumption of innocence, sometimes referred to by the Latin expression Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat (the burden of proof lies with who declares, not who denies), is the principle that one is considered innocent until proven guilty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_innocence
Lets not speculate it’s meaning dear.
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Any man or woman that sees fit to make up not one but several different stories from the time the incident occurred until now with no care of guilt then that tells me he is a monster.
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To say Trayvon had 4 minutes to get home and return to the scene to take his frustrations out on Zimmerman is non-sense. The time line was expressed and showed to have only allowed 2 minutes based from the calls made. And funny enough during those 2 minutes Zimmerman’s action were also unaccounted for during that period of time – Looking for an address? Pick one of the three streets in the complex – the cops will find you. The only evidence of frustration is that on the part of Zimmerman proven in the taped non-emergency call. The call was interrupted not purposely disconnected. I must agree with the defense that it was Trayvon that was defending himself and not the other way around. At what point do we decide that a child is responsible to take the weight of the decisions of a grown man? Zimmerman created the situation and caused the initial fear in Trayvon, if anything Trayvon was standing his ground. Zimmerman wanted to be the neighborhood hero, and as far as his inconsistent statements and him offering these statements with out a lawyer, it was simply because he finally felt important he was a part of something big – he was rubbing elbows with the very community of law enforcement he wanted to be a part of. He did it for the attention, not to claim his innocence he believed at that point that he had provided a good enough claim of events to be deemed a hero not the murderer that he is. Zimmerman did an interview stating that he had no regrets and would do nothing different, he even went as far as to say that it was God’s Plan. What sick individual would make such comments? Police officers after shooting an actual criminal with just cause of true bodily harm with no other way out of the situation often require emotional profession support and treatment to deal with the situation, because they have regrets and remorse. To say that you have NO regrets, that there isn’t anything you would do different, if placed in your vehicle in the exact same scenario that you would still get out of that car shows malice. Zimmerman – given his knowledge of the law, his mother being a law clerk and his father being a judge felt that he would be honored for what he did. It meant nothing to him then and it means nothing to him now that Trayvon was not a threat to his community…or should I say “their” community has Trayvon was a resident there as well. Instead of showing regret he and his team of defense put the responsibility of this situation on this child that was simply walking home in the neighborhood that Zimmerman decided was his to play vigilante in. Trayvon’s actions should not be on trial, the injury’s to Zimmerman are consistent with Trayvon defending himself, and not in any stretch of the mind life threatening to the point Trayvon needed to lose his life. Quoting Mr. Guy “Trayvon did not have Mr. Zimmerman’s blood on his hands, but Mr. Zimmerman will forever have Trayvon’s blood on his hands.” Well said Mr. Guy…well said.
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I hope Trayvon Martin’s parents sue the Gawker for publishing those horrible pictures of Trayvon dead in the grass. It is quite gruesome. This is so damn shameful.
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Why does it matter if George Zimmerman is evil or a monster or not. I believe he should be punished in some way for MURDER!
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I feel GZ is guilty as hell. He needs to be punished. If he had kept his sorry carcass in the car, instead of trying to be some kind of vigilante, I feel Trayvon would still be alive. GZ is a monster.
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Peanut,
This is how I feel anytime there is an interracial crime and trial. This trial is kinda stressing me out mostly because, and I’m ashamed to admit it, I have a feeling Zimmerman will walk free.
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Face it, the only reason this case gets this much media attention is because its perceived as “racial violence” (against blacks). If a black man killed an allegedly innocent white boy, it would never be a national news story. Period.
Is Zimmerman guilty, maybe…I don’t know. I will leave it up to the courts to decide. But the black community made up their mind before the trial even started. Even with a fraction of the details that the judge and jury will have heard, they already know that Zimmerman is guilty, and if not it will be because of racism. Of course.
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@ Sublime
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The system is funding division. The everyday white people that have already and/or will be hurt aren’t even the people that are your enemies. But they are always the ones who get hurt. Never the actual powers that be.
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@ Katy
Like Brothawolf said, a grown man with a gun following and killing an unarmed 17-year-old boy is a monster.
When he stepped out of his car he showed he was not afraid of Trayvon Martin. When he stepped out of his car, he was no longer the neighbourhood watchman but something else. He proved that by not telling Martin WHO he was, not even in his own account of events. At that point Zimmerman was representing only himself. He was no longer the neighbourhood watch but a grown man following a boy. Trayvon was right to suspect he was a pervert. What normal man does that? In the dark?
My son was hit on the head once. There was blood everywhere. It was scary. Zimmerman’s scratches were nothing.
If it were self-defence he would not tell so many lies. If it were self-defence he would regret it. If it were self-defence he would not call it “God’s plan”. The man is SICK. The death of a child is ALWAYS tragic. Not to him.
Do I know what is in his heart? He does not HAVE a heart, not a human one.
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Abagond the video I posted features Larry Pinkney, a former member of the original Black Panthers. It is related to the Zimmerman trial. I know Alex Jones can be a little out there, but this one is informative.
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Sorry it was supposed to be this video…
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNuLXP5LLVU&feature=c4-overview&list=UUvsye7V9psc-APX6wV1twLg)
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It’s not working… it links to the wrong address. Anyway Larry Pinkney a former Black Panther , it is on youtube, talks about the case there. The vid I posted is not related unfortunately I don’t know what happened.
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@ biff
I have a son who was born the same year as Trayvon. He walks to 7-Eleven too. Wearing a hoodie. Sometimes in the rain. All that gives me a particular view of Zimmerman and the case. I WANT him put away for at least ten years, the longer the better. If he gets off it will eat away at the right to be black while breathing.
When I was watching the trial it was like the whole country and its psychohistory had shrunk down to that one room. And THAT gave me a bad, sinking feeling: it told me that Zimmerman’s humanity would matter a hundred times more than Trayvon’s, that the jury would BELIEVE Zimmerman, would WANT to believe Zimmerman, and regard Trayvon as the danger to society, not Zimmerman. It told me that Zimmerman would get off. I hope and pray that the better angels of the jury will win the day.
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I wrote this post last Monday, which seems like a long time ago. No bombshells were dropped by the defence. I learned more about the case which makes me MORE certain of Zimmerman’s guilt, not less.
The closing arguments by the defence made it even worse
– when they tried to paint Trayvon as a thug,
– when they said he was armed – with the concrete of the sidewalk,
– when they misrepresented what Tracy Martin said,
– when they did not even try to make a reasonable defence of many of Zimmerman’s apparent lies.
They made themselves and Zimmerman seem even more sleazoid.
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To Brothawolf:
No one can dispute the fact that if the colors of GZ and TM were switched, GZ would have been arrested from the get go.
I’ll dispute your assertion:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/29/us/stand-your-ground
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😛
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@Uncle Milton
You are absolutely right about that case. That is something that was very briefly touched on during the height of the pre-trial story last Spring/Summer and it was immediately dismissed. In fact it was race baiter extraordinaire Eric Michael Dyson who shot it down in flames. (Which was totally bs, he is a total scum)
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There was an indictment in the Daniel Adkins murder. I know that was also for second degree murder, but I don’t believe he was ever arrested I will have to look into that further. The irony is the shooter was black.. stand your ground was applied.. and the victim is half white half hispanic. Sort of a mirror image.
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To dave:
There was an indictment in the Daniel Adkins murder. I know that was also for second degree murder, but I don’t believe he was ever arrested I will have to look into that further. The irony is the shooter was black.. stand your ground was applied.. and the victim is half white half hispanic. Sort of a mirror image.
Dave, you’re right.. Cordell Jude was charged with second degree murder 115 days after he killed Daniel Adkins:
http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2012/07/cordell_jude_charged_for_april_murder.php
So another parallel to Martin/Zimmerman case.
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This case no matter the outcome is prime for racial divide and also to mask all of the scandals going on right now. The national news media is absolutely State controlled. Part of control is divide and conquer. Daniel Adkins unfortunately won’t cause the same strife and reaction from civil rights people and hate groups. You won’t get white kids to run down South street in philly beating on random blacks because of a case in Phoenix. But you can get black kids that have been fed a life long diet of racial bitterness through the schools and community and the media, some warranted some not, to do it. I believe the department of homeland security wants to flex some of those new muscles they bought. Look it up they have billions of dollars in new bullets armored vehicles and are itching for a reason to use some of their new toys. Some of the armored vehicles have futuristic weapons on them. Look it up. I am very worried about a nationwide response. Some of the protests organized by the new black panther party last year were funded by the justice department and Eric Holder, look it up. They are bought and paid for provocateurs. Don’t fall for it people, please.
http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/030513-646857-dhs-buys-special-armored-fighting-vehicles.htm?p=full
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Oh by the way Abagond if you or your viewers want to see the video I meant to post featuring Larry Pinkney , original Black Panther (not to be confused with the phoney new black panther party) you go in youtube .. type in info wars and it will be one of the first few featured videos on Alex Jones channel. For some reason the correct link will not post here. Makes me wonder why? He goes on to explain better than me how he believes the media is provoking the masses with this case.
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Also not to beat a dead horse.. but because I think this video is so true.. It’s called “New Black Panthers are Obama’s Civilian Security force” <——copy and past this. on youtube. just easier.
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Everyone here is making the claim that George Zimmerman initiated the fight while at the same time arguing that no witness actually observed the entire fight. If nobody saw the start of the confrontation, it is IMPOSSIBLE to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman initiated the fight.
The so-called ‘medical and legal experts’ who have chimed in on this blog have presented the following, incredibly weak, argument:
Zimmerman, a WHITE Hispanic (the most ridiculous racial classification ever uttered given zimmerman’s brown skin), was out at night looking for a young black man to kill, Zimmerman saw martin and pursued him and then physically attacked him, Martin beat Zimmerman in the ensuing fight but zimmerman’s injuries were too minor to have any bearing on the case, since Zimmerman started the fight, he is a murderer. Also, any witnesses that contradict this line of argument are lying because no one actually saw the fight, but we know that Zimmerman is a racist and started the fight because he wanted to kill a black person.
There is no evidence, direct or circumstantial, to support the argument that Zimmerman is a murderer. To prove 2nd degree murder, the prosecution has to show that Zimmerman acted with ill-intent, depravity, and a lack of concern for human life. The prosecution hasn’t even come close to proving 2nd degree murder. They haven’t even proven manslaughter. There’s a reason that the samford PD refused to arrest Zimmerman: THERE WAS NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT A CASE FOR MURDER. If anyone can prove me wrong and cite real, indisputable evidence submitted in trial that shows Zimmerman is an evil, racist murderer, be my guest. I’d like to know if I’m wrong or missed something in the trial.
Why aren’t we talking about the dozens of black children who are murdered each year in cities like Chicago? Is it because its black on black crime? That should make no difference, justice must be blind in all cases. The fact that Zimmerman is Hispanic (he’s in no way white) does not mean that Martina’s death is anymore tragic than the death of anyone else. Wake up people, it makes me sick to see how so many have bought into the myth that America is some ultra-racist cess-pool. By believing that crap you’re simply perpetuating racism yourself.
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Zimmermans’ lawyers are trying to play it smart as much as they can keep the focus off the lies Zimmerman told and the fact that the cops told him NOT to follow Trayvon, means they can make the case appear anyway they want. Hence why they word questions the way they do and tried to be slick with Trayvons mother and it didn’t work. To make knock-knock jokes and to asked a mourning mother if she hopes her sons actions did not contribute to his death is down right disrespectful. These people if they don’t fear God, I don’t know where they think they will go when they die.
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@acj13, not only were the defense downright disrespectful to Trayvon’s mother , even the prosecution was racist, they asked her for a full background on her education and work history, then asked George Zimmerman’s mama nothing about her work/education history, even though she is a law clerk and her husband was a federal judge which was very relevant info for this case…. very racist and suspect behaviour….
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@ Peter
1. Zimmerman did nothing to save Martin after he shot him, even though supposedly he did not know he was dead till the police told him during questioning at the police station later that night.
2. He did not even try to apologize to his parents after the shooting, not till much later when it was in the public eye and it could help his image.
3. Zimmerman told Fox News that he did not regret what he did that night,that it was God’s plan. Meaning that #2 was fake. MOST people, after killing a teenager in self-defence would be torn up about it, be full of regret, feel completely terrible. Even trained police officers need help after killing someone in the line of duty. Not Zimmerman. Nope. BECAUSE HE DOES NOT GIVE A FUCK ABOUT TRAYVON’S LIFE. NEVER THE FUCK DID.
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Abagond, it is indeed a scary thing. I as a black woman with no sons ( yet) and no close male relatives at the moment (it was just me and my Mom), have begun to feel a certain fear too, especially given how many whites are more relating to and in defense of the murderer Zimmerman. Not all whites, but a vast majority of them that have no interest in facts or relate to having a relative killed but are in defense of the murderer who was told not to follow Trayvon, but did.
I personally don’t feel that his name, or past, or family situation factor at all in the case, nor his height, but the fact that 1)he was killed and 2)his murderer was told not to pursue him and 3)there is no evidence to prove he was doing anything wrong to even be considered “suspicious”.
As a black woman this case has brought a whole new reality to how a large percentage of whites, especially Republicans, think of things and yes it is scary. Thank god for laws and that I don’t have “stand your ground” where I live.
whew!
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@abagond
i don’t own a gun but feel like this. If I did, I(and any person who decides to ever own one) should learn that a self-defense shot is in the legs or arms or foot. Zimmerman shot him IN THE HEART. He meant and I believe pursued, to kill him!
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Zimmerman is only on trial because of the publics outrage. Not because he is guilty or innocent. If his intent was to kill TM then why was the gunshot wound not in the back of the head? Why did GZ call the police to report the boy that was roaming in and out of the surrounding buildings? GZ was returning to his car… and at that time… TM had become the follower and the stalker… he approached GZ and began to beat him… he wasn’t just punching him in the face… he was maliciously slamming GZ’s head into the concrete. I don’t know if any of you have ever seen someone sustain a brain injury, but I saw a guy wreck his motorcycle, not a scratch on his helmet, yet his brain began to swell out of his head, he died within minutes. So like it or not, and as sad as it is that a 17 yr old lost his life… GZ did exactly what he should have done. He had taken on the job of protecting his neighbors from being robbed when he found himself in a situation of having to protect himself. Keep in mind… this was not the first person that TM had attacked… he had been suspended from school for attacking his bus driver as well.
Self defense is not described as “legs, arms or foot”… if you pull a gun out to protect yourself, you do not, in any way, leave the option open for you to still be in harms way. A gunshot wound to a limb does not ensure that your attacker stops attacking you.
We need to remember a few things as well… at the time of this shooting, witnesses told police that TM was the instigator and was on top of GZ…
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Correction Kelly Cooper, Zimmerman was brought to trial finally after murdering a teenager. We have neighborhood watch where I live and they drive in particular marked cars and there has never been an incident where I live. Zimmerman called someone after seeing Trayvon ( who was doing nothing wrong) and HE WAS TOLD NOT TO PURSUE TRAYVON MARTIN! Yet he did. Trayvon is dead so given Zimmerman pursued him, it is safe to believe that Zimmerman started any altercation that started that night. As a gun owner and carrier, Zimmerman shot the teen IN THE HEART.
He knew what he was doing. He wanted to attack, was angry and up until this day can not say Trayvon Martin was doing anything wrong.
He needed to be on trial, the “stand your ground” law and defense needs to be reconsidered in whichever states where it is as it can lead to senseless, unneccesary murder like Trayvon’s murder and I believe ZImmerman should be punished since a young teen who was merely walking through a neighborhood( not breaking into anyones home or vehicle), is now dead!
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Kelly:
So, if YOU were in a scuffle with someone in the way in which you describe about Trayvon and GM YOU would expect to be shot then?
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@Kelly, you said “We need to remember a few things as well… at the time of this shooting, witnesses told police that TM was the instigator and was on top of GZ…
whoa, I must have missed that- what witnesses saw that Trayvon was the INSTIGATOR ??? I am not speaking of people who believe zimmerman’s story and THINK Trayvon started the aggression. let me know , otherwise I will think you are a LIAR and RACIST …..
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Yes Peanut I am serious as a heart attack, maybe a lot of people did not pick up on this not so subtle racist move. Since I have been studying racism and codification I now see a lot of instances that I would never ever have picked up on. I understand the reason they questioned Trayvon mother about her education and work history- to a lot of white people when they look at a black woman all they see is a welfare queen and triflingness, they wanted to send a message to the jurors- all white women that she wasn’t your average black women so she be deserving of a little respect. Abagond posted a very interesting article on the strerotype of the “black Brute” which they tried to fit Trayvon into that stereotype. On the other hand zimmerman’s mom being hispanic is stereotyped as being a hard worker with high morals so she did not need to PROVE anything to the jurors. …. I hope you will one day take a closer look at this trial and see racism being carried out in it’s most rawest yet refined form.
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@Kelly Cooper (@KellsCooper)
“GZ was returning to his car… and at that time… TM had become the follower and the stalker… he approached GZ and began to beat him… he wasn’t just punching him in the face… he was maliciously slamming GZ’s head into the concrete.”–I would ask how you know this to be fact but I am just going to take this moment to say…Hello grass or concrete or whatever form you had to take in order to know this as fact. I must ask why is it you are not testifying. Such witness testimony would have been so valuable and he would not be on trial at all.
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@ Peter
“If nobody saw the start of the confrontation, it is IMPOSSIBLE to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman initiated the fight. “—Funny you say this considering most comments I saw stated Martin started it. If no one knows then they don’t but my how you only see what you want to see.
I don’t know if you know Hispanics, have viewed your census and other race tracking paperwork or whatever but wrong wrong wrong and wrong again. Regardless of that brown skin some still put white of Hispanic decent on those papers. Just as some put black of Hispanic decent.
“Since Zimmerman started the fight, he is a murderer.”—No since he said he shot him he is a murder (depending on the definition you want to go by). He did take a life did he not according to him and the prosecution is currently just trying to prove his intent (whether it warrants any of those degrees of murder) not whether he did it or not.
As far as the rest of what you said..I am with kiwi…blah blah blah..All your type want is to be proven wrong as if you do not have the ability to see things for yourself. One thing I learned about your types is I can provide all the evidence in the world and you will still give the blah blah blah bs. Don’t believe me…read your own comments and find the flaw in them. You won’t find it because you can’t see past your own ignorance.
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And don’t bother coming back with show me then. I don’t want my time wasted as I have a vacation to plan.
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C Andrews
I have found that these Zimmerman supporters are completely delusional. I mean they are helping make up the lies as they go. Heck some have gone so far as to make up things Zimmerman never even said. That should tell us all how sick they are.
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@C Andrews
Race does have something to do with this. Admit it! Things would have gone differently if Trayvon was White.
@Sharina
I agree with you. Zimmerman supporters are either delusional or have racial tension in their hearts. Most of White America didn’t care when Trayvon was shot and killed by this man. The truth is Zimmerman killed Trayvon because he thought he was a threat, which he wasn’t. And White America would have gone crazy if Zimmerman shot and killed a White boy with blond hair and blue eyes, Trust me!!!!
Zimmerman is guilty of murder and he should be locked up. Whoever doesn’t think is so crazy or delusional!
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@Adeen I don’t agree with your assessment about the races being reversed .Because Uncle Milton and I were just discussing a case on here that is an exact mirror image (You couldn’t get more of a role reversal). Daniel Adkins… look it up. He is the victim , he was unarmed and shot by a black man who keeps the gun at all times on his lap while he drives. The perp is also being charged with 2nd degree murder and it also took over 100 days for an indictment. Daniel is also half hispanic and half white exactly like Zimmerman. It has gotten very little national media attention. My theory on that is that the National Media is state controlled and they are race baiting.
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Damn and another gets away…
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Well, I’m sure this type of injustice happens in the courts all the time. Even against whites and other groups. I think moreso than this case has been the hate it brought out and how many defending Zimmerman the murderer. Creepy and scary!
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Upset by verdict but not suprised.
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I knew from the very beginning this would happen. No surprise. I wonder will Zimmerman have security to protect him.
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*I wonder will Zimmerman have security?
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I’m not really surprised.
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I knew he was going to be declared not guilty since day one, but seeing it come to past hurts like hell!!!
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I’m not surprised in the least. another black child killed, an all white jury, except 1 black and Latino female, found him not guilty.
The parents must not be surprised, either. they got no justice…
The killer walks free………
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My heart hurts for Trayvon’s family. I hurt for all the Black young men and young teen boys. Because they have let us know time and again that they don’t care about us.
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@Brothawolf
I know how you feel. I just read about the verdict and while I can’t say I’m surprised it still feels like a slap on the face. The truth of the matter is whites stopped having any use for Blacks when slavery ended. As far as they are concerned we are useless lifeforms that are taking up precious space and resources. I do believe that one day we all will stand before the Lord and He will judge us. No money, skin color or lawyer will be able to get us out of it (I’m not trying to proselytize. Just sharing what I believe. ).
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The word is out on young teenage boys, every mother in Florida, better lock their teenage sons away and throw away the key, because its open season on young black teenagers, now.
So if you’re a white racist and want to kill a black male teen, go to Florida, shoot a black teen and claim, self defense and get a not guilty verdict from stand your ground.!!!!
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@Peanut
I think a lot of us are ready to go with you.
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@mochasister: I concur with your above comments. Blacks are non factors in America.
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@ Brothawolf
I agree: I thought Zimmerman would be found “not guilty”, but it is still different to hear the words.
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My heart truly hurts for Trayvon’s parents, brother and family and friends. Now like so many Black families have had to do they are going to have to go on with absolutely no justice served for their loved ones. At least not in this lifetime. I pray for them. I really do. I don’t know any of them but I identify with them. I have a Black father and two Black brothers. They drive me nuts sometimes but it would kill me to see them gunned down and their killer go free.
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I don’t know Sondis, reading the comments on the news boards has me as a black woman scared as well. So many defended and related moreso with the murderer and quite alot were weirdly angry at Trayvon’s mother, particularly after she took the stand.
Maybe this whole case will serve as a sort of wake up call to all of us, unfortunately it has me a little in fear. I know now how many black men/black mothers with sons/black boys feel/felt when it comes to racists and being in certain areas, etc.
I was driving somewhere recently out of the way and as I went two points over the speed limit and saw a police nearby in what appeared to be a mostly white area a fear came in me like never before b/c the night before I had read CNN’s message board which was full of people making up all sorts of lies about the dead teen and whom related more to Zimmerman as his murderer. I realized that with so many having that attitude, I could be targetted, attacked yet have people who would defend my killer and slander me even in death because I am black.
It’s scary for sure!
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I guess the only thing, the Martin family has left to do is, file a wrongful death suit and make Zimmerman’s life miserable.
The the Goldman’s family did OJ Simpson. sue him for everything he’s got! He’ll write a book and make millions, that could go to the martin family if they sue him for wrongful death.
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Found not guilty not surprised. ALl i can say is, ppl get ur passports, and know ur enemy. Know that it was white women who reached this verdict they are not ur allies like some falsely think. Our lives and our children’s live don’t matter. I don’t think i want to have kids unless i move elsewhere. My thoughts and hope for justice and peace go out to his family and friends, i can’t know what this feels like. Whites don’t forget anything, this was some payback for oj simpson getting off and a message has been sent that black ppl u better do as massa says or u will be killed. We are of no use to this country anymore so they are terminating us, they have a new cheap labor overseas and through the prison system and the immigrants. All i can say ppl is stay indoors, and be safe. This just gave ppl the right to kill black ppl without consequences.
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Gina,
Yes, i can understand your fear. Me being a black man, i have always been a target for cops and would be, vigilantes.
This isn’t anything new to me but like Brotherwolf and abagond has said, it just reaffirms what we already know, black men are expendable at all costs and garner no sympathy and are not seen as, “victims” even when we are gunned down!
I am so glad i don’t have any children, bad enough i have to worry about my own life as a black man
i can’t imagine having a black son to be worried to death about, every single time he walks out the door, that i might get a call from the police, that he has been shot and killed. @ : o ( ) >
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Ok jusy read on facebook thay people are retweeting zimmerman’s address. Chaos. Will he get witness protection?
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Abagond I love the header, it is very touching and beautiful, two young black men taken from us without justice. I feel for both. It was hard to see documentaries about emmit til, but to actually live through something like this is a whole nother level. U see it and see the trial and u can say i lived through that and i saw this and i remember this, i remember where i was when i heard the verdict, i remember seeing the news and people’s reactions.
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Well I said manslaughter or not guilty but leaning towards manslaughter. Turns out that the more cynical expectation was the correct one to have. Stay strong Martins/Fultons.
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Mstoogood4all:
“Whites don’t forget anything, this was some payback for oj simpson getting off and a message has been sent that black ppl u better do as massa says or u will be killed.”
OJ Simpson, didn’t get off, they set him up, so you can’t say he, ‘got off”.
Lemme get back on topic though, i saw some biff guy, try to derail the topic by trying to bring up the OJ trial to abagond.
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Seeing both of these young men’s lifeless bodies will forever be burned into my mind and heart. And seeing their faces i will never forget their faces and how beautiful they were. My heart aches for these young men and also for the black women who have been raped and killed and never had justice. I just hope tragedies like these will bring us together and put all the petty bs aside and come together.
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It’s scary to say the least!
——–
re:
@ Gina,
“So many defended and related moreso with the murderer and quite alot were weirdly angry at Trayvon’s mother, particularly after she took the stand. ”
well we should expect that…the womb that produces the black child of course is reviled.
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Heart broken…that’s all that comes to mind. Dis-belief is another word coming to mind at the moment. My prayers go out to the family and friends of the entire Martins/Fulton family. Justice was not served. I think the worst is that Trayvon was not even cleared to be the victim in all of this. My heart breaks for Trayvon’s parents so deeply…I wish I could provide more than just prayers for this family…I truly believed that justice would be served.
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The jury was full of whites. That says it all. They are racist. Those that claim they are not sit back and remain complicitly silent. I’m truly beginning to believe that they can’t be trusted. Any of them.
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@Mstoogood4yall
“Whites don’t forget anything, this was just some payback for OJ…”
I would also add Pres. Obama to the list. They’ve had a hardon for us ever since he’s been in office.
“They just gave ppl the right to kill Black ppl without consequences. ”
Haven’t they always had this? SMDH. Trayvon is like our generation’s Emmet Till. I think deep in my heart I’ve always known that whites’ attitudes about Black life are still somewhere in the antebellum South, but to have such a blatant show of disregard for this young man’s life is just heartrending. I imagine this must be a little like what is was when our families had their loved ones lynched and not a damn thing was done about it.
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@Sondis
Suing is the only thing that seems to make some people pay attention. They don’t value human life (correction Black human life). The only thing they seem to understand is loss of money. That really seems to hurt them. I say sue the Neighborhood Watch Organization (the national branch. Zimmerman went way overboard in the watch captain’s responsibilities.), the homeowner’s association of the condo where Trayvon was killed (there had been complaints about Zimmerman’s behavior as the Neighborhood watch captain), the Sandford “police” (more like clown) department and last but not least ole Georgie himself (his parents seem to like going in behind and cleaning up his mess. Let them fix this one. ). Not that any amount of money is going to take away the pain of losing Trayvon. It won’t. But this is the only way they can (legally) strike back.
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@ mochasister
Yeah and they will really have their true intentions out there when he leave office. Now i know they gonna be interviewing black folks now to see their reaction. I just hope they respect the martins privacy and don’t start asking those dumb questions about how do u feel. smh. I knew this ship was sinking when we got a biracial president, now this confirms it. if we don’t abandon ship we will go down with it. Yeah its one thing to hear ppl talk about what happened in their time , but we are living through this now and seeing it for ourselves its a whole nother level. I just hope this is a huge wake up call for everyone who thought it was post racial and color blind society. I can tell the ones who more than likely brought into this false eutopia are the ones who are the most shocked and surprised. Even some of the older generation is shocked when these things happen, i’m not from their generation but i’m not shocked when these things happen i’m just like uhuh i knew it, His story repeats itself.
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Or, as in the case of Trayvon Martin, not even get a call from the police.
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@peanut
I’m glad they showing how they really feel. They always hide behind things. At first they hid behind hoods, now they hiding behind computers, lmbao. I just hope they continue to show their true colors so more black ppl will wake up and ban together.
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Trayvon Martin. No Justice. No Peace. Taking The Streets in SF & Oakland/And in Washington DC:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/07/14/1223461/-Trayvon-Martin-No-Justice-No-Peace-Taking-to-The-Streets-in-SF-Oakland
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…so heartbroken
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@Mstoogood4yall
Hopefully this has been one huge n***** wakeup call for those who think we live in a “post racial” and “colorblind” society. When the nation’s first biracial president was elected, many people rejoiced like it was the second coming of Christ. People seemed to believe that once Pres. Obama was in office we would all be sitting around the campfire singing Kumbaya. Maybe now young Black people will understand a little better when oldheads like myself try to talk to them about the realities of being Black. So many young people think it’s not like that anymore or worse they will call you a racist when you try to talk to them about racism (I’ve had some “interesting” conversations to say the least.). This whole travesty of justice should show us what is really thought of Black people.
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Everytime I see George Zimmurderer I am filled with anger and hatred. I’m going to sign off and pray.
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I know people are angry right now (Me included), but can I propose something as a thought experiment?
We all know that George Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin. He admitted it. We all know that, had he followed the 911 and the police instructions, we would experienced a very different outcome. Trayvon would likely be alive and nothing would have happened except a brief skirmish with the police.
Still a boy who was not doing anything illegal was shot dead. Yet George Zimmerman was not found guilty of either murder or manslaughter. Something still feels very wrong.
We can all come up with factors of that influenced the outcome, but what caused that to happen? What can we do about it? What could prevent it from happening again?
Some things we suspect
– application of the black brute stereotype
– apathy and callousness from the local police
– wannabe cop who seeks vigilante justice
– how any sane person could imagine that GZ’s life was actually in danger (despite his defiance of police instructions)
These elements came up in the trial.
But it was the jury that delivered the verdict. They spent 16 hours on it. Did all 6 of them truly exercise poor judgement based on the evidence at trail? Is it really all up to them?
I personally feel that there is a major problem with the concept of Stand Your Ground laws and the ease with which people can carry lethal weapons and shoot people.
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This verdict told me how race relations are regressing in this country
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Zimmerman didn’t do anything wrong by calling the police to report a “suspect”. He didn’t do anything wrong by following Trayvon. From his injuries, I figure Trayvon probably attacked him. But there’s no way I’ll believe he thought his life was in danger.
If Trayvon had really been slamming his head into the sidewalk, Zimmerman would have been unconscious. I believe Trayvon was punching him and his head was only bumping the sidewalk. It was dark and Trayvon probably didn’t even know Zimmerman had bumped his head.
Still, this was a bad case to make an issue of because the facts appear to support Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense. I don’t think Zimmerman feared for his life but to prove he didn’t means proving Zimmerman didn’t think so. There’s no way to prove what Zimmerman was thinking.
Now we’re letting these “good white liberals” *sarcasm* race bait us into fighting their political opponents again. We’re like dogs on a leash that everyone else uses. The only thing we get out of it is to look angry and ignorant. Whites didn’t like it when OJ got off. They grumbled but they took it and moved on. We should too.
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if he got to the gun while he was in that positions as he states couldn’t he have shot him in the leg or shoulder. I’m the last person to want to start trouble, but I guess the jury followed the law as it states and found a reasonable doubt that he was a murderer.
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@Adeen as far as finding race relations taking a hit because of a jury of 6…. that is a stretch.
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I guess this was going to go like this from the day One. Everything was done to let this killer go free from the very start of the investigation. And now he did walk away with murder.
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I don’t want to seem like I am being heartless. It is terrible what happened to Trayvon… but to take it out on random white people is more racist.
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@Dave
Race relations has been regressing since President Obama took office in 2009. Many racists came out of their shells and showed their true colors. This case only intensified the deteriorating race relations. I am mad right now
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STFU Dave. whites have been taking it out on random blacks for centuries!
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I understand that Adeen. I emphasise with that. I feel it myself. Did you know him? Did you love him? Was he your brother, or friend , or classmate? I think you know the answer. The media has race baited this. Are you mad at me? Did I do it?
I had a close cousin who was shot to death by a hispanic guy. He only served 3 years. There was very little evidence and all of the eyewitnesses were high on drugs. .. Should I hate all hispanics? This was my cousin! not someone I didn’t even know and I even realize you can’t go around hating all people who look like him. I’m sure you are smart enough to realize that.
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Do not get me wrong Adeen. I’m not saying not to be upset…. you should be, we all should. I’m not saying “Don’t get angry”… If that’s how you feel that is your real feelings girl… embrace them. I’m saying don’t take it out on people who had zero to do with this and fight with the wrong people.. that is all I’m saying. Feel better hun.
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@Dave
No you don’t understand. I don’t hate Hispanics at all. I am not a hateful person. I realize that there is good and bad in all races. I am not taking it out on you at all. I am just upset. Why would this system let any man get away with shooting an unarmed teen? And the same system that let a young mother get away with killing her two year old daughter!
This case hit home because I have a young brother, who is fourteen and I don’t want him to get shot and killed the way Trayvon was.
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@Kiwi
Exactly. I never said hate. I am not a hateful person. I just think that the this case intensified race relations between Blacks and Whites, which it did. If Dave doesn’t understand that, then that is his loss not mine.
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anger leads to hate. Never said she was there yet. I don’t have any “horse in this race” I understand why people would be upset. I thought he at least deserved Manslaughter I’ve said that and made that clear. I never put the words in “your mouth” that you should or do hate hispanics. I merely gave you a personal example where I could have gone down the wrong path, because of losing a close family member. I think unfortunately the defense put on a good case and the jury followed their instructions to the letter of the law. Doesn’t make him innocent. It only makes him Not Guilty for reasons of reasonable doubt. The Prosecution has the burden of proof here which isn’t proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Now anyone with common sense knows he has blood on his hands for the rest of his life. He will live with that, and God will judge him accordingly, when the time and place comes. But don’t think that Black men have never gotten off of murder in recent times. Which is totally irrelevant. I’m just bringing it up because the media would have you believe otherwise. They want you to loot stores… They want you to start riots. I Care about you… I don’t want them to have a reason to hurt anyone. I’m being honest here.
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You know the biggest black murderer in recent times? His name is Barrack H. Obama. Look it up.
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He’s been “getting away with it” for far too long.
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http://www.dailypaul.com/271872/here-are-all-the-children-murdered-by-drone-strikes-at-the-hands-of-barack-h-obama
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@Dave
I know who I am and what to do. I don’t want to start a riot. I have every right to be angry at the outcome of this case. He should be in jail. I am not a violent person at all. In fact, I have very timid in person.
Yes I know Obama is a murderer and I don’t approve of his presidency. I find him rather weak and ineffective when it comes to the economy and domestic policy.
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Never thought you personally would riot doll. I was speaking more in general. You do have a right to be angry. I was at a friends house earlier with my two kids and when I found out the verdict from that friend I got angry. In fact we were out back where it was dark and my daughter got scared and thought I was really fighting with people. I had to explain to her that I was just being passionate about something she didn’t understand (she’s 7) and Daddy would never hurt anyone because of that. Get my drift? My argument was if he got to the gun as he said he could have easily shot him in the leg so shooting him in the heart was overboart. Clear case of manslaughter. period!
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@Dave
You are right and he should at least gotten manslaughter. I live in Florida and I believe it is a horrible state.
Plus you are right about Obama.
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I know the way the media spun this you feel like you know Trayvon. Crap he could be “Obama’s son” My thing is I had two cousins die tragically. One by the hands of a drugged out feind, over a matter of 80 dollars. One in a terrible Motorcycle crash. They both hurt equally losing a loved one especially at such a young age is horrible. One was 18 and just three years later the other was 17. So I do know what it’s like. What baffles me people not related to Trayvon who feel like they lost their cousin or their brother. Because they share the same skin tone. I think the Media has a huge burden of guilt on that one. They should be sued, they should be looted, they should be shut down…. Not regular random everyday white people who are completely unrelated to this case.
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Wow, how would we manage without dave here telling us how to feel about the verdict? Thank you maasa!
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Origin I’m sorry…. I don’t mean to tell you how to feel. The media has been doing that for over a year though. That’s my point. Feel however you want. I have had some good talks with Adeen in the past and I am trying to put this into perspective. Have a good night man… I am sorry.
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Dave
Spare us the sentimental BS about how you care about us people of Afrikan descent..
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This so painful..
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Were you as upset when the media showed pictures of Newtown children?
Anyway, I just noticed another other story from Florida: Marissa Alexander. She fired a shot into a wall during a fight husband and got two decades in prison.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57434757-504083/fla-woman-marissa-alexander-gets-20-years-for-warning-shot-did-she-stand-her-ground/
The wall got justice…
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@Origin
I was thinking the same thing. I think he is very politely telling us to “get over it.”
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@ Jefe
“What can we do about it?” “What can prevent it from happening again”
I am truly angry (as are many people) but I want my anger to be righteous and constructive. These are two questions I’ve been asking myself. What do we do now? In my opinion it’s quite obvious that this country needs to do something about the gun control issue. Yet, every time one even mentions it people become extremely upset. I thought when the little children were killed in Newton that things would change. Or at least we would begin to have some dialogue. But I was wrong. Don’t even get me started on those Stand Your Ground laws.
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mochasister:
I was thinking the same thing. I think he is very politely telling us to “get over it.”
Looking at dave’s post, the frequency and content suggest panic on his part. I tend to skim over a lot of the posts but in all of the comments that I have seen of dave, he seems to be scared, all of the time. I can’t remember the thread but I know that he said about Jamie Foxx calling out for riots or something like that depending on the outcome of the case. I wonder if this is what he is dreading maybe.
Unfortunately, I have seen this kind of attitude. This is something specific to whites I think where there is a stong attempt to get PoC to supress their feelings, particularly when it is obvious that anything but is justified. The fear of black uprising is not far from some whites minds, so, many wp will act as though PoC are overreacting when it matters.
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All I can say is “Not surprised”… but still mad.
even though this coconut Zimmerman is part Hispanic, whites only took his side because he killed a black boy and black people protested…anytime black people want something in this country, white people get upset.
if Trayvon had been Hispanic and his parents protested and did Exactly as the Martins had, white people wouldn’t have given a d’mn… not one word would have left their mouths because they could have cared less.
whatever black people like, white people like the opposite on purpose– this country is full of nothing but a bunch of racist pricks!
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Peanut, I am so upset about the verdict. Zimmerman should be in jail. The case only intensified the growing tensions between Whites and Blacks in America. This country was never meant for us. We will never citizens in their eyes.
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@ Linda
Yep that is the truth. They keep saying zimmerman is not white he latino, yada yada. BUt they cover for him as if he is a white man. If they didn’t care then they wouldn’t have covered this story or sided with anybody. But they do care, they love anybody that comes after blacks. Lets not forget those girls that made that vid about black ppl they were white and one girl was latino. WE have no allies,everybody else is willing to kill us or throw us under the bus to become the model minority. THey crave praise from white folks. WHites know this, everybody knows this but us, why do u think they put a latino woman on the jury? to be their token minority and they knew she would agree with the white females.
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I can certainly understand how people might be unhappy on moral grounds, but the trial did seem to provide proper due process.
The vast majority of lawyers who have commented on this case have stated that the prosecution wasn’t likely to succeed due to insufficient evidence.
For those who believe that the verdict represents unfairness in the legal system, racism, or other bias, how do you account for the difference between your opinions and those of legal experts?
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Randy:
For those who believe that the verdict represents unfairness in the legal system, racism, or other bias, how do you account for the difference between your opinions and those of legal experts?
Let me reframe this question and put it to you. “Do you think that all verdicts are fair and are free from racism or other bias? How do you account for the convictions that have been made over the years and end up overturned with posthumous pardons?”
I’m sure people on here can think of U.S cases where this has happened.
The vast majority of lawyers who have commented on this case have stated that the prosecution wasn’t likely to succeed due to insufficient evidence.
Where there is insufficient evidence there will always be doubt I think.
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I already knew this would be the outcome. From the moment I heard of this ordeal,the long time it took to get Zimmerman brought in and charged and arrested. The law enforcement have been playing games from the beginning. When I learned his father was a judge,that right there let me know he would get away with this. But Zimmerman knows he is a marked man. So it kind of sucks to be him these days. But certain segments of white America want blacks to riot and burn up their neighborhoods. I pray we are stronger and wiser than that. This is very upsetting indeed. But I feel that Trayvon’s parents should do what Ron Goldman’s family did with OJ Simpson,sue for wrongful death.
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@ mochasister
You hit on something. White America really has no desire to make blacks equal partners in this country. Unless black Americans return to their assigned roles as quiet servants and manual laborers (for cheap, of course), white American interests have no reason to tolerate their presence.
If you’re willing to overlook the possibility of racial bias being allowed to quietly influence a case, then of course it provides proper due process. And then you’re left wondering why “those people” are so upset when the results turn out the way they do.
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That last quote and comment was addressed to Randy.
@ Adeen
We can either walk away from this country or do the one thing they seem to understand and take it from them. The latter promises a long and very bloody road to walk on.
Either way, attempts to cohabitate and coexist with these people have proven fruitless. It’s time to adopt the Hispanic playbook and use demographics as our destiny.
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Jordan Davis’ s parents probably aren’t going to get justice either.
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This country was built on and breathes Racism, so it would make sense that everything is about race in America.
Whites never see race in any situation, despite historical or present, evidence.
Whites go on their feelings, whenever they deny racism, black goes on EXPERIENCES THROUGHOUT OUR LIVES, not to mention History.
Its a combination of history and present that shows that black people are telling the truth about racism and white people are always lying by denying racism in every single instance, where a black person is in the equation.
The jury was predominately white with one Hispanic/black ( i find it odd, how they can’t get a definite gauge on her race ) but i digress.
The fact that 99.9% of the time, a jury consists predominately of white people, shows a conscious effort to have white people, determine who is guilty and innocent.
This has been a mainstay in the justice system, whites get to apply justice to blacks and every other minority but never the other way around.
This assures, that they will receive mercy within the justice system, where as black do not as blacks don’t garner sympathy from whites, being whites can’t see blacks as victims, only a cause of white people’s problems and their own, problems.
White people also say, “why is it always about race with black people?”
My answer to white people would be in the form of a question, “why is it always about race, when it comes to a black person?
White people set the tone in terms of using race to separate them from all the various races in the name of white supremacy.
White people apply it and it works by effecting blacks and other minorities but when the effects become transparent, they lash out and claim, “black people are race baiting, playing the race card, they are trying to make this about race, the white liberal media, are “INJECTING RACE” into this, where it never existed. How hypocritical is that?
White supremacy is the desired result, racism was meant to create.
Racism is a constant and has ALWAYS existed in this country, so cut the bull and stop trying to make it seem as though, racism doesn’t persist in American, society.
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This country is in retrograde. I have always felt this way.
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Mochasister:
“Jordan Davis’ s parents probably aren’t going to get justice either.”
Yep, i read about that story, very similar to the Trevon martin case, he’ll probably get off, completely.
Doesn’t matter they never came close to one another or was involved in a physical altercation.
They’ll say Jordan Davis was guilty of assaulting the white mans ear drums by playing his music loud at a gas station, so he was justified in killing the black teen, NOT GUILTY.
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@ mary
Yea i knew it was going to be the outcome as well, some thought they would at least convict on manslaughter to quiet us but i knew that wouldn’t happen. I knew it was a wrap when they didn’t arrest him right away. and when i read an article about how the jurors were concerned about backlash if they chose an unfavorable verdict and the attorney said don’t worry we’ve done what they’ve asked which is for him to get arrested and have his day in court. That is the tactic they always use which is to say see we didn’t promise yall nothin and u didn’t ask for the right thing, which is the same thing obama can say that i didn’t promise yall nothing so u won’t get nothin and can’t complain about nothin. And also when the news kept bringing up oj simpson, and i saw an interview where the news anchor was like the martins will have to prepare for a not guilty verdict the same verdict u heard. The news woman was interviewing nicole browns sister.
@ mochasister
Yea i don’t think jordan davis will get justice either, but we will see. I wonder when the trial will start because another judge removed herself from it. At least they did arrest him and there didn’t have to be marches. IF they get this one wrong too there is no hope, and i wash my hands of this place.
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So this stand your ground business is just horse manure. There is a siste siting behind bars right now, she was in a domestic violence situation,and all she did was shoot the gun in the air. And she is incarcerated. The justice system where Black people is concerned is jacked up.
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*sister*
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@mstoogood4yall: You are so on point young queen.
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mary burrell:
Yeah, i read about this case too, first offense,never been arrested. The father of her kids, had a history of violence against him, too.
A white female prosecutor, threw the book at her, I’m not surprised!
I wouldn’t be surprised if that white female prosecutor, has a black husband!
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I forgot about the Jordan Davis ordeal. That’s the young brother that got shot because the white man said he was playing his music too loud. That was crazy too. I concur with the rest of you guys, No justice for that young brother’s family either.
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@ sondis; That’s true. There will be more deaths of Black people.
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The parallels of Emmitt and Trayvon Martin killed for the color of their skin. Zimmerman enraged to the point of getting out of his vehicle,chasing and unarmed teen. He saw the color of this young man’s skin. His hatred for black skin is what motivated him to violence. Just like the racist white devils that murdered Emmitt Till,they hated the color of black skin. That was Trayvon’s crime he had black skin. I hope Zimmerman never get’s a moment’s rest. I hope he is haunted forever.
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“Open season on black boys after a verdict like this” by Gary Younge
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/14/open-season-black-boys-verdict
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Marissa Alexander got 20 years in prison for firing in the air when her abusive husband charged at her. She argued Stand Your Ground, a law that pretty much only works for white people.
The lead prosecutor in that case was Angela Corey. She was ALSO the lead prosecutor in the Zimmerman case. You never saw her till the end, after the verdict was made public, probably because she depends on white voters to stay in office (State Attorney in Florida’s Fourth Judicial Circuit Court).
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Oh yes i remember the case about marissa, ppl were blaming her for staying with the guy and not pleading guilty so she could get the lesser charge. Wake up ppl black ppl were not allowed to own guns so they are taking it away from us by charging any black person that fires a weapon so they can never own a weapon again. remember plaxico shot himself in the foot and got arrested. john mcneill killed a white man in self defense and got arrested. We are not allowed to defend ourselves, now they painting trayvon as being bad and saying he was armed… with the sidewalk smh. Oh and george zimmerman brother gave an interview to pierce morgan after the verdict and it is infuriating. he basically said trayvon caused his own death, these devils have no soul. there is no hope. fk post racial utopia, they have shown us time and again they don’t play fair, THe only thing they understand is money and violence. I’m not for violence but i am for boycotting their arse and supporting as much black business as possible.
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@Peanut: Those were my comments.
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And that sidewalk nonsense? Martin’s body was on the grass! Was the shot that Zimmerman fired into Trayvon so powerful it lifted him off of GZ and propelled him several feet so he’d land on the lawn? No bushes, no sidewalk, “you got me…homie” — all B.S.
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“Peanut
@ sondis,
“But Zimmerman knows he is a marked man. So it kind of sucks to be him these days. But certain segments of white America want blacks to riot and burn up their neighborhoods. I pray we are stronger and wiser than that. ”
They’re projecting…someone tell me on incident where Blacks have burned up white neighborhoods…correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t believe that even in the LA Riots white neighborhoods burned, on the other hand throughout history…white people have burned up black neighborhoods…so it’s just classic projection.”
Mary Burrel is correct, she made those statements, not me.
I will comment on something you said, Peanut.
“white people have burned up black neighborhoods…so it’s just classic projection.”
Whites burned up and bombed, black wall street in Tulsa Oklahoma, yet the white media, mentions nothing about that fear.
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@ peanut; No, not to my knowledge. I wondered about Black Wall Street,how Blacks were being prosperous and doing for themselves,and racist white killed and ravaged a town. The Blacks were not dependant on whites and they just hated that. Nothing has really changed in my estimation.
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The state of Florida is very racist. But then again much of the United States is racist.
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@ peanut
No black ppl have not done that, but u know white folks are paranoid and scared to death of karma. That is why they didn’t allow blacks to own guns after they were free because they feared rebellion. They fear blacks rising up like nat turner. But it don’t matter because whenever that happens its always more blacks are killed than whites in the end, but they stay paranoid. This is why they bring their ass on here not to have discussion but to check and see if us negroes are planning something smh, it is why they had cointelpro. ANy resistance against them even if it is us being ourselves like wearing natural hair certain clothing like a hoodie or whatever is seen as an act of aggression and anti white. Idc anymore i’ll do me, anybody don;t like it fk u i didn’t ask ur opinion nor do i answer to u.
“I don’t favor violence. If we could bring about recognition and respect of our people by peaceful means, well and good. Everybody would like to reach his objectives peacefully. But I’m also a realist. The only people in this country who are asked to be nonviolent are black people.” -malcolm x
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@ Sondis: I never heard of Black Wall Street or the Tulsa riots. It was another brother who was an aspiring playwrite,who told me about this. We were never taught about this in school. And the riots in Rosewood, in the state of Florida.
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i’d never heard of black wallstreet until i saw a comment on a blog about it then i looked it up and was like wow, we had airplanes, hospitals, banks, post offices,etc. I had so much pride after that, nobody can tell me that blacks have done nothing because the proof was right there. It was just destroyed and swept under the rug but it was there. That is why its very important for us young ones to know about our history and see who we once were and what heights we can reach.
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Ugh….I need to meditate…my heart is so heavy, my chest could sit on the floor. I agree with you Peanut, political tap dancing, and the typical white media projection at play here. I haven’t had my TV on in days. I’m not missing anything, besides I prefer the intelligent, passionate interaction of those here and on other blogs I follow.
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@ mstoogood4yall
Exactly and we need to start making efforts to reach those heights again. This time staying there. This needs to be a wake up call to us. We have got to make changes and now.
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The Huffington Post with Obama. Empty rhetoric.
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@mstoogood4yall; If Black people did it back then it can be done again.
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@mary burrell
We can and it needs to be our goal.
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mary burrell
“If Black people did it back then it can be done again.”
White people will never make the mistake of allowing us to gain power again, like with Tulsa Oklahoma, they actually thought we wouldn’t be able to be, independent of them, so they left us to ourselves, thinking we will come back, running to them for help.
To their surprise, we PROSPERED and were independent of white people.
Now, white people make a conscious effort to not give black the opportunity to be, independent.
They don’t approve band loans to black people, that want to open, their own businesses, they also don’t allow, rich black people to purchase ANY land, because land is power!
So yeah, they know NOW, that we are capable of sustaining ourselves , this is why they won’t allow it, because they will have no logic to stand on, when trying to point the finger at us for societies problems.
White people need blacks to use as a scape goat for the problems that they have created in America.
They are the ones in power, we are not and never have been, yet they blame us for everything that is wrong in the country, instead of accepting the blame, which ends with them.
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@ peanut
tail between his legs head down, that is how i see him.
“The death of Trayvon Martin was a tragedy. Not just for his family, or for any one community, but for America” really the same america that cheered this sheit on twitter and other networks.
“I now ask every American to respect the call for calm reflection from two parents who lost their young son” yeah ok but i bet u didn’t even call them or reach out to them, i bet u aren’t going to speak about this ever again. and do u really think these same ppl that painted trayvon as a thug are going to respect and reflect especially from 2 black parents we know they don’t like to be told what to do from a black person.
“I know this case has elicited strong passions. And in the wake of the verdict, I know those passions may be running even higher. But we are a nation of laws, and a jury has spoken.”
No sheit, “But we are a nation of laws” yeah white laws, that don’t work for us.
“and a jury has spoken”, yes a white female jury full of women that look like the woman u came out of.
“And as we do, we should ask ourselves if we’re doing all we can to widen the circle of compassion and understanding in our own communities”
yeah and while u at it can u have compassion and understanding and shed a tear for someone who isn’t white.
“We should ask ourselves, as individuals and as a society, how we can prevent future tragedies like this” we can prevent things like this by mofos staying in their car.
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@sondis: We are in synch,that Black people during the time of the Black Wall Street were prosperous,independant of whites. I stated that in my previous comments to commenter peanut. So it appears that whites want blacks to always be on the bottom. But this verdict should be a wake up call for all Black Americans to come together,put away the petty craziness. We are running out of time.
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If Zimmerman had only stayed in his car. That young man might still be alive today. This is only hindsight but I wonder in his mind if Zimmerman thinks about this? Does he regret his actions?
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mary burrell:
I agree, if not now, then when? @ : o O ) >
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Ever heard of Trevor Dooley? Well……you can learn all about him in Vyand’s Daily Kos diary regarding the case brought against him by the state of Florida in 2010 for standing his ground against his attacker. Needless to say, the verdict was completely different than the one Zimmerman got at his trial. Here’s a short YT clip from within the dairy to get you started:
(http://youtu.be/bTTAkqFz_88)
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I’m a little sad about this but we fucking knew the outcome. I’m tired of seeing “Georgie’s” fat ass, I pray that blacks won’t do anything stupid and just use this to come together.
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^^^^^^ http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/07/14/1223588/-We-don-t-have-to-ask-What
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As I stated in my previous comments,”Stand Your Ground” is such horse manure. All a person has to do is say they felt threatened and that is what is taken into consideration. I have a feeling that some white person will always use that to kill a Black person. But it seems that SYG works in favor of whites. We see how this worked for Marrissa Alexander, who is behind bars. It is an unjust law.
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@ mstoogood4yall; Empty rhetoric, hollow words from our fearless leader. Such a joke.
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@mary burrell:
I don’t think he regrets the murder as much as he regrets the “inconvenience” of facing a BS trail and having his face splashed in news papers across the world.
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GoldFire:
Very good post of that link to put this whole “injustice” system in perspective, compared between white and black, defendants.
Black people have lived a double standard in every aspect of our lives in American, society.
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@Siah: Yes, I can see that. You make sense. If that is true then he is a soulless.
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^*He is a soulless individual.
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@Sondis
This country was never meant for us. It was meant for Whites and other non Blacks, Not us. We are just free labor in their eyes
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Sondis says:
Yes, yes, yes! It is amazing what we accomplished in the years immediately following the Civil War. We weren’t even one generation out of slavery, yet we built schools and colleges, purchased land, had elected representatives, our own townships and businesses, and were represented in nearly every trade and profession imaginable. This lasted through the turn of the century, and even through World War I, although during that time we also suffered mass lynchings, saw the birth and rise of the Klan, and endless amounts of racial violence and hysteria borne by whites.
Contrary to popular belief, black retribution for slavery never occurred; we got on with our lives, and even prospered in many areas. But that didn’t stop white fear from fomenting, it didn’t stop rabid whites from being hellbent on destruction.
It’s that same irrational fear that drove George Zimmerman. That same animus that enabled the defense (and the media) to paint this as the “Trayvon Martin trial” (yes, I actually heard Wolf Blitzer say that), thereby framing the VICTIM as the guilty party. It’s that same ridiculousness that prompts the media and police to go on riot watch, while still others proclaim “hallelujah” that a black child is dead and the man responsible for his death is not guilty of it. That’s some sick $#!+. Straight up craziness.
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@ sondis
One word..Rosewood.
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I agree, grin and bear it @ : o ( ) >
Yea Sharina, i know all too well. @ : o ( ) >
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are you guys part of any civil rights organizations? Would you recommend any?
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I should probably ask that in the open thread.
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mary burrell:
“^*He is a soulless individual.”
We’re so much on the same page. Many white people disturb me for this very reason. They lack a soul. That element of ‘aliveness’ that is independent of external accoutrements. The thing we become aware of when we meditate and block out everything else. For them, it’s shrunk so far as to be nonexistent. So when you have to deal with them you feel the very life being sucked out of you. ‘Whitewashed graves’. Who they are is coat of paint defined by the things acquired. But nobody is born soulless. ‘Westernized’ culture manufactures the zombies to suit its own consumerist and imperialistic ends.
sondis:
“White people apply it and it works by effecting blacks and other minorities but when the effects become transparent, they lash out and claim, “black people are race baiting, playing the race card, they are trying to make this about race, the white liberal media, are “INJECTING RACE” into this, where it never existed. How hypocritical is that?
White supremacy is the desired result, racism was meant to create.”
I wrote up a big post about this for the school segregation thread when everything sort of came together for me. Then I ended up not posting it because it seemed peropheral. But mary burrell’s reflection on Ghoul Zimmerman’s soullessness and your comment on white supremacy brought it up again. It went like this:
It is Western culture’s capacity to atomize and separate in order to gain power that’s responsible for its apparent material success. Unfortunately, the resulting spiritual impoverishment is also the reason why true peace and contentment eludes it. While non-whites are routinely ‘separated out’ for mistreatment (as in racist segregation), white people immersed within Western cultures are essentially power-seeking atoms that have called a truce in order to focus on projecting power outside the group. There is no inner spiritual light that binds them into a true community. No. Their apparent unity is defined by their imagined separation from everyone else. They musn’t identify WITH ‘others’. “We are not them” DEFINES them. This is precisely the reason why many whites do not see themselves as having a culture. In order to have power over ALL things they MUST empty themselves of being ANYTHING at all. Because to dominate ruthlessly over a part of yourself is not the gaining of power just self-flagellation. So once they become nothing (in spirit) they can seek to gain all things outside themselves to become something. But since those things are accounted as nothing as soon as they are possessed, a persistent need to conquer and appropriate in order to feel fulfilled manifests. The metaphor is a vampire with an insatiable apetite or a vacuum that remains vacuous even as matter ceaselessly rushes in.
In such a culture success is defined by degree of power. Individuals immersed in it (including black people who believe in it) that have been unable to achieve, within it, the accepted forms of power become isolated and may act out destructively. A true spiritual bond with those around you would not allow for so many mass shootings. Rather, other people become objects through which power may be obtained by TAKING their lives. Of course, the apparent gain is fleeting as everything, once obtained, becomes nothing. The assailant kills himself or is eventually executed. The ultimate poverty is a poverty of spirit. Yet despiritualization is absolutely necessary to create the completely materialist/capitalist edifice that we see as Western civilization. I’m only now understanding the concept of Yurugu: the chronically incomplete being. Or to paraphrase JC: don’t say ‘lo here’ or ‘see there’ is the kingdom of God because the Kingdom of God is within you. True satisfaction in life can only come from the spirit within. It is only spirit that has allowed back people to survive and rise after being reduced to a thing that is bought and sold. We always knew there was more to us than our circumstances. We only fail when we forget that.
sondis:
“White people will never make the mistake of allowing us to gain power again, ”
Maybe. But the endgame I expect is the end of the current structure of things. Not from external assualt but from implosion under its own weight. Western economics, for example, requires endless ‘growth’. But nothing in this reality can grow without bound. Everthing in life is defined by balance: ebb and flow, rise and fall, crest and trough, give and take, hill and valley. What goes up MUST come down. Everyone has a terminal premonition including, probably particularly, the West itself. What do all those disaster/post-apocalyptic movies, survivalist ‘preppers’ and predictions of the end of the world signify? A presentiment of doom, that’s what. It’s scary to contemplate because the higher the climb the larger the fall. But every end is also a beginning. Ultimately white people will be compelled, by the collapse, to rejoin humanity and humanity will cautiously take them back. Most non-white people on this planet have extremely ancient cultures (millenia) and have already learned the futility of cutting off the nose to spite the face. That’s why they can still ‘dream’ of unity (MLK) and speak of reconcilliation (Mandela). White people’s imagination that we’re as racist as they are is just that: imagination. For if first people weren’t welcoming to white visitors none of what subsequently transpired could have taken place. Of course, people are more wary of them today. Lessons learned. “White man speaks with forked tongue”.
Anyway, sorry for the huge post. Just thinking out loud in view of the verdict and everyone’s comments. In the end this is what I cosign:
mary burrell
@mstoogood4yall; If Black people did it back then it can be done again.
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We’re all saying this (being proactive, taking some form of charge etc) now but will we a year from now? Like how the media can dedicate weeks to a trial and then move on or how a news-reporter can move from telling a story on children found dead and then swivel the chair to another camera and talk about the new craze in dieting. I’m just asking because it has happened before, get a little riled up and then settle down–back to work as usual. Or is this all fermenting somewhere within us?
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Origin:
Very profound words you speak! ^_^
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@ Origin: Thank You for responding to my comments. As Sondis said very profound words indeed.
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@sondis, mary burrell
Thanks for reading and for the kind words. 🙂
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@ Origin; You are welcome.
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“Is George Zimmerman guilty?” certainly actually you meant to ask. “Does water run downhill?”
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@ Ineed
“All evidence supports Zimmermans account. Travon’s bloody fists and the fact that the forensic pathologist (Dr. Vincent Di Maio) said that the evidence shows that Martin was on top of Zimmerman leads me to think that Zimmerman is innocent.”—Actually no or rather it depends. He has told a few different accounts and I guess he is at a point of telling which one is more logical.
Now the evidence you speak of so freely just proves they were fighting. It does not prove that Martin started it. It does not prove that Zimmerman’s accounts are true. It really just points it on middle ground and because of that law all he needs is the “I’m scared” coupled with angry black man fears and he is free as we can see.
Not guilty does not mean innocent. People tend to get confused on that. Not guilty just means not enough evidence to prove otherwise.
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“It does not prove that Zimmerman’s accounts are true.”
So the testimony by Dr. Di Maio who said that the gunshot was consistent with Trayvon being on top of Zimmerman is false as well?
“Not guilty does not mean innocent. People tend to get confused on that. Not guilty just means not enough evidence to prove otherwise.”
I am neither White nor American, so you are going to have to clear up my ignorance. So if a person who was judged ‘not guilty’ by a jury of his peers is still someone to be looked upon with suspicion?
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@ Ineedtoselectanameandstickwithit
“So the testimony by Dr. Di Maio who said that the gunshot was consistent with Trayvon being on top of Zimmerman is false as well?”—Didn’t say it was false, What I said and let me quote….”Now the evidence you speak of so freely just proves they were fighting.”
“I am neither White nor American, so you are going to have to clear up my ignorance. So if a person who was judged ‘not guilty’ by a jury of his peers is still someone to be looked upon with suspicion?”—sorry not aware, but yes. This is why it is often said our justice system is a farce or broken. People with more money or more connections can get that same not guilty verdict even if they are guilty as sin of a crime. You can get off if you have a hell of a defense attorney who knows how to swing things. People are still free to put trust into these individuals but I would not be so quick to do it. Especially in cases where the evidence still cast doubt on their event of things.
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I have a comment in moderation.
I don’t doubt a fight broke out at all. I don’t think anyone is disputing this, but I do believe Zimmerman provoked it. I believe he was suspicious due to the break-ins. If I am not mistaken a guy was arrested a week or two before Martin was killed for the break-ins and he was black.
I think Zimmerman having a gun gave him courage to confront and possible attempt to detain Martin. I think when he attempted to detain him that a fight broke out which lead to him fearing for his life and reaching for the gun and shooting Martin. All of that because he refused to just sit in his car and wait.
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@ Ineed
I am not trying to get you to change your mind or anything, but I did want to point out that this evidence that people rest on is laughable.
“Expert” witnesses are jokes. See how easy it was for each side to get one to say what they wanted or needed them to say? And in some cases both sides might actually agree. And people tend to only agree with what they believe to be true. So if they believe x about this case and an “expert” testified to this then they will believe it and ignore the “expert” that testified to something different. It is the way of the world I guess.
At any rate I need to finish up this episode of doctor who.
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Has anyone wondered why five White females and one Latina was picked as the jurors in Florida? I have too. It is a coincidence because these women let Zimmerman go free. If Blacks were on the jurors, they would have acted in favor of Trayvon.
And yes, George Zimmerman is guilty. Only an idiot wouldn’t believe he isn’t guilty.
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I am not sure if these are even her words or not, being she is reading then and speaking these out loud but none the less, they are courageous words by a young, white female.
America needs more white people like this, that not only thinks this way but actually “acts” this way.
Its not enough for white people to just think in a none racist way but to be, proactive by shutting down friends or family, that make racist jokes and think its OK, because its the norm.
Watch the short video clip, below.
( http://youtu.be/TBRwiuJ8K7w )
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As a neutral observer, as far as I can see, it’s not the “black brute” stereotype which was being invoked.
Zimmerman suspected Trayvon of burglary. There would be a good reason for Trayvon to want to beat him up and even kill him if he thought he would be found out, since he would face the risk of arrest and jail himself.
Do note that the dispatcher told him, “we don’t need you to do that”, and not “don’t do that”. I hardly think that was a sufficiently firm instruction to Zimmerman.
Either way, whether it was a misunderstanding or whether Zimmerman was actually reasonable to suspect Trayvon or not, this is less about race than about guns. Clearly, this entire incident would never have happened if guns were banned in America. If you reverse the races of the participants, whether or not the perpetrator would be found guilty or not would still be secondary, because what matters is that a teenager has died due to the use of firearms against him.
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[…] George Zimmerman is guilty […]
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