The following is based mainly on Dr Beverly Tatum’s excellent book, “Why Are All The Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?” (1997). She talks only about Spanish-speaking Latinos who grow up in America (the U.S.):
Being Latino is not a matter of nation or race. It is a matter of culture, of belonging to a Latin American culture. After all, you can be black or white or Indian or mixed and still be Latino. You can be Mexican or Cuban or American and still be Latino.
Three stages that Latinos (and other people of colour) go through growing up in America:
- unexamined ethnic identity – your ethnic identity is not a big deal, you barely think about it.
- ethnic identity search – it becomes a big deal, mainly because of experiences at school. You come to terms with what it means for you to be a member of your ethnic group. This can take years.
- achieved ethnic identity – you have a clear, positive sense of your ethnic identity.
“Ethnic” here can mean “racial” as well. Some Latinos find themselves at stage #2 because of race, but all find themselves there because of language. (Tatum talks about growing up black and growing up Latino but not about the two together.)
Anglo Americans mock Spanish and shame its use. Some Latinos internalize this shame and stop speaking Spanish – or hide their knowledge of Spanish in a bid to be accepted by Anglos. Most schools teach only in English. Some teachers punish the use of Spanish, some even ask parents to speak English at home.
Growing up, Latinos have to come to terms with their feelings about Spanish and its use. And that in turn lies at the heart of coming to terms with their ethnic identity – stage #2.
There are four possible outcomes:
- assimilation – become Anglo
- withdrawal – become Latino
- biculturalism – become part Anglo and part Latino
- marginalization – become neither Anglo nor Latino
Assimilation, favoured by most schools, distances you from your family and ethnic group. Families are a big deal in Latino culture: where Anglos believe in individualism, Latinos believe in familism. Note that assimilation does not assure that you will be accepted by Anglos, especially if you cannot pass for white. Nor does it allow you to reach stage #3. That can lead to self-hatred.
Withdrawal allows you to reach stage #3 but cuts you off from the broader American society. (On the other hand, the U.S. has 10% of the Spanish-speaking world.)
Biculturalism allows you to move easily in both Latino and Anglo worlds but it is hard to achieve and can lead to alienation from both worlds: marginalization. The marginalized are stuck in the middle, accepted by neither side. They become alienated and lost and may join gangs.
Bilingual education: Tatum says that in the long run it is best to teach Latinos mainly in Spanish until their English is good enough for schoolwork, which generally takes five to seven years. Better Spanish now means better English later.
– Abagond, 2012.
Where Spanish is spoken as a native tongue, circa 2010. This roughly matches the Spanish Empire of 1790. The U.S. is the fifth largest Spanish-speaking country, where 13% speak it at home.
See also:
- Spanish
- Mock Spanish
- Afro-Latinos
- Reading Beverly Tatum
- growing up series:
- growing up black
- growing up Native American
- growing up Nezua – a good example of the dangers of assimilation
- growing up biracial
- HB 2281: Arizona’s law to ban ethnic studies
Abagond 
I am definitely not a believer in bilingual education. I think full immersion is the way to go. I am trying to learn Spanish now at age 36. Learning a language, even a relatively easy one like Spanish is difficult when you are middle age. When you are a kid, you can pick up a new language almost without even thinking about it. There’s no way in heck I think it takes a kid 7 years to be proficient in English. Even as an adult I think I could become proficient in another language in way under that time and that’s even without full immersion.
So I think kids should be taught in English only in schools. They will learn and there’s no better time to learn than when you’re a kid and it’s most easy to absorb. Keep in mind that if we have to provide Spanish language classes to Spanish speaking kids, then do we have to do them for all the world’s hundreds of languages? We don’t provide bilingual education in Chinese. So why Spanish?
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eenrt-pFbL4)
Great interview with Felipe Luciano about growing up Puerto Rican in New York , and some great history of the Puerto Rican immigration into New York
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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teAlU0soet4&feature=relmfu)
part 2, there are other parts too, I think its some really great insight by Felipe Luciano about growing up Puerto Rican in New York
check out the other parts
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How did it come to pass that the suitability of English as the primary language of school instruction is even an issue?
Countries in South, East, and Southeast Asia are scrambling to teach students English literally by the hundreds of millions. A similar drive exists in many places in Africa. As for “Latinos believe in familialism”, so do most Asians and Africans, and that does not seem to cool their desire to become fluent. I’d guess that the opposite is generally true.
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Huh? Where does “marginalization might lead to joining a gang” come from? I though marginalization of this sorts brings to broken ethnic identity (as in, not having any).
Maybe it’s different/specific with Latinos. I don’t know. It just seems strange (and contrary to what happens in my part of the world).
I assumed gangs and similar behavior are mostly reserved to those who wish to prove themselves they are 100% whatever they want to prove (like belonging to an ethnic group or whatever). Here (former Yugoslavia) it sometimes happens with ethnically mixed individuals. Not classic gangs, but those who with to prove they’re 100% Serbs/Croats/whatever are more likely to be those who are mixed (and therefore not 100% of the desired ethnic group). I guess it’s different in the US – but I just find it strange that someone with a marginalized gender identity (neither A or B) would resort to gang behavior. Feeling alienated, yes, lost, yes, but not this. Or maybe I’m missing something.
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@ Tulio
I agree with you about how quickly children learn languages. If the kids are fairly young I do not think it would take that long to learn English. Even if another language is spoken at home and the family lives in a Latino community, I still think picking up the language would occur quite fast. e.g. I know a couple who send their 4-year-old to an English-speaking school. They speak French at home and in public all they hear is Mandarin. He is practically fluent in English. His own parents sometimes even have difficulty understanding his French!
After they are past the stage in which immersion works well, I think it is far more challenging, though. e.g. Even though I learnt French in school, when I moved to France in my early 20s and took immersion classes, I was absolutely lost. I hardly learnt anything from the class. I had to study by myself to learn something.
@ Randy
I do not think it’s so much a desire to resist becoming fluent as it is to resist having part of their culture and familial ties interfered with.
My parents were also told by the school that they should not teach me my father’s language because it would negatively affect my ability to learn English (this is told to a lot of families). Since we were in an English-speaking country, had no reason to doubt the school and my father was the type to happily assimilate, my parents did as they were told. I have trouble connecting to a part of my cultural background and am unable to communicate with part of my own family as a result (they are too old to learn another language). However, all of my cousins are bilingual, spoke their parents’ language at home and it never ruined their ability to become fluent in English from a very early age. Even if I begin learning now, I will most likely never be fluent in Cantonese.
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Tulio, I sympathise with you learning Spanish at 35, I pretty much dropped in on Rio de Janeiro at 36 with no knowledge of Portuguese in my life…I butcher this incredibly beautiful poetic language on a daily basis…I will never get rid of my accent..grammer and masculine and feminine sinks in unbeleivibly slowly…the TV is my teacher
Yes, kids pick up languages fast and my very sharp son, at an early age, after realising that he would only learn mistakes and the wrong way to speak Portuguese, ordered me to speak only English to him and his mom to only speak Portuguese…his formal education was in Brazil so he cant write English fluently at all, but, he speaks English very fluently with a mid west accent
I sent him to a Brazilian English teacher to learn to read English, but, when he would read, he would have the accent of his teacher….I stopped those lessons after that
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I took French and Spanish as a kid/teen. Of course, I didn’t retain much, other than notes, books, and the novice ability of being able to decipher written dialogue more so than speaking it (if that makes sense). I suppose it depends on the area one lives in to consider learning (at least marginally) other languages.
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@ Mira
Tatum use of the word “marginalized” is not the one that you mainly see on this blog, where it means marginalized by white racism. She means they are at the margins of both the Anglo AND Latino communities. With little else to turn she says some of them may turn to gangs for a sense of community.
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@ Randy
Iris gets it.
Most people in India or China who learn English at school are not using it as a medium of instruction. Big difference.
In many countries you are taught in your native language at grade school, in the national language at high school, and in a national or world language at university. In England the point of GRAMMAR school back in the old days was to teach you LATIN grammar – because Latin was the medium of instruction at universities.
To expect Latinos to be taught in English before their English is up to it goes against common sense and sets them up to fail in needlessly high numbers. Unless of course they are being groomed as a cheap labour force to serve Anglos….
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Abagond,
I know what Tatum meant. While it does make sense for people who have either a broken ethnic identity or who are at the margins of certain communities to seek for a sense of community (be it in gangs) this isn’t what’s been my experience with (somewhat) similar situations. So I wonder if it’s something unique to US, or Latino experience in the US.
At least in my experience, people who have a broken ethnic/national/etc. collective identity and who don’t fit anywhere (either by choice or circumstances) move in a completely different direction. It often embracing types of identity and sense of belonging in places that have nothing to do with the collective identity in question. Some even turn from collective to individual identity and emphasize that one.
Or perhaps I don’t understand what gangs are in this context. (I guess I assumed gangs are often formed along the ethnic lines – Latinos in Latino gangs, whites in white gangs). (Is this a wrong assumption?)
I am a person with a broken (or non-existent?) ethnic/national identity and my road is mainly along the lines of focusing away from this sort of collective identity. However, there might be some important differences between the US and what happens here.
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As for the language, I always assumed official language in school + native language at home works the best to make you speak both fluently. At least this is what works for my cousins and other people I know who live abroad.
However, I also believe a country is required to provide at least elementary education taught in minority languages. Not all minority languages, but certainly for major minority groups. I know USA is very large so the number of minorities vary by states, so it should be based on needs. Areas with large Latino population, for example, should provide at least elementary education in Spanish. At the same time, these kids should also learn English so they can become fluent in it, too.
They should speak their native language at home – it goes without saying.
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Iris:
My family had a similar experience. For many parents, it seemed better to err on the side of caution, though in retrospect the baby was sometimes thrown out with the bathwater. Nevertheless, immersion in English gave the children the best access possible to educational, employment, and civic opportunities.
Iris:
Don’t you think that there is a reasonable expectation when emigrating to another country that one’s culture will be affected in some manner? Isn’t there an implicit if not explicit duty to engage in your new country’s civic and cultural life?
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Abagond:
How do you explain the primacy of English as the language of instruction in the Philippines?
What’s missing from these types of discussions is the consideration that Latinos may simply just not prioritize learning English to the extent of other groups. In that case, the issue is one of choice rather than one of environmental challenges to be overcome.
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I am in the Philippines at this very moment, and I have researched this somewhat in the past, and I think there is a simple explanation for this.
There are about a hundred different dialects spoken in the Philippines. Under Spanish rule, few Filipinos were priviledged to be educated in Spanish – mostly the ones who were descendant from some of the major Spanish families (and thus used Spanish at home).
Under US rule, education was popularized and English became the lingua franca of the Philippines. Speakers of different dialects used English to communicate. The national language of Filipino, which is based primarily on the Tagalog dialect, did not gain ground until the late 1930s and was not actively promulgated until well after WWII. By then, English had long been established as the Lingua Franca of the Philippines. The primacy of English as the language of instruction occurred because generations born before WWII had already become accustomed to using it to communicate with other Filipinos. Many Filipinos, especially of the older generation, know English better than Filipino (Tagalog). Tagalog has become a Lingua Franca only in the past 50 years or so.
A similar situation arose in Singapore. English was the lingua franca among people who spoke different Chinese dialects, different Indian dialects, different Malay dialects, Portuguese creole, etc. It was seen as “non-ethnic”. Generations of Singaporeans have been educated in English, and although they may speak other languages at home, have already been accustomed to education in English (for those families who fall in this category). Singapore tried to change this in the 1980s by specifying “mother tongue” education according to one’s ethnic classification, with mixed results.
I think the situation in the USA is not at all analogous to the Philippines or Singapore. If the Latinos (or anyone, for that matter) in the USA cannot use English as a medium of instruction at the start, then using Spanish in the beginning, and migrating to English in later years might produce better results. That is NOT the situation in the Philippines and it is unfair to use this as a comparison.
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Jefe,
I think you may have missed the point. Abagond suggested that attempting instruction in a language which differs from the primary language at home is tantamount to setting students up to fail.
Yet the Philippines is an example of a country where English is the primary language of school instruction even though it’s generally not the primary language in the home. Also, Latino immigrants generally have easy access to massive amounts of English-language media to support their efforts, a resource which Filipinos lack.
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First, only about 25% of “Latinos” in the US actually use the “Latino” label (most prefer their country’s identity, followed by a preference for “Hispanic” over “Latino”). In the US, very few of them who are not first-generation immigrants speak Spanish as a primary language. About 8% of second-generation Latinos speak it primarily and 2% third generations.
While I agree that it’s ideal for students to take courses in their native language, I don’t agree that any jurisdiction should cater to people who do not speak the administrative language of the government. However, I fully agree that when such people become the majority of the population, like in many counties in Texas, California, etc., then they have every right to change the administrative language to suit the majority.
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@ resjan
If you read the post you will see that it is “about Spanish-speaking Latinos who grow up in America (the U.S.)”. About 13% of Americans speak Spanish at home, a considerable number. In the south-west and Florida it is between 20% and 30%.
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@Abagond
I’m responding to the comment you sent me. Not sure what point you were making, but I was merely pointing out that most Latinos don’t see themselves as a collective culture (almost 70% say this), and despite Spanish being spoken at home, very few second and third generation “Latinos” in the US speak it as their primary language, which agrees somewhat with your statement “Some Latinos internalize this shame and stop speaking Spanish – or hide their knowledge of Spanish in a bid to be accepted by Anglos”
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Tatum is wrong. Teaching children in multiple languages only succeeds if the children themselves are at a “gifted” level (and seeing as how over 90% of children of all races hover around the 90-105 IQ range…)
My take on assimilation is simple: the better you are at communicating with the people of your adopted/”host” country (as a first-generation American immigrant and a military veteran, I’ve been in both of those situations), the better your chances of success. Teaching a child in one language while they’re living in another country with a different language tends to backfire. When my parents arrived in America, they did their best to mirror their neighbours (even after West Indian patois became a “good” thing), because they understood that the easiest route to success is in ease of communication. Even in America, among Americans, professionals of any region affect a flat accent. You aren’t going to visit Birmingham and find doctors who sound like Honey Boo Boo, you aren’t going to see accountants with surfer boy/”valley” accents in California, etc. On top of that, even the natives of those regions (people who know what a “fantod” is, or who may actually leave their insurance adjuster’s office to surf), are far more likely to choose people with proper diction over their erstwhile peers. Even English-deficient Latinos, when its time to but a house or settle a legal dispute, will choose bilingual lawyers or realtors who sound “professional” (read: “white”, “proper”, “educated”, etc.)
Yet, Tatum thinks that the best thing to do with Latino students is to teach them in the same language that they hear all day when not in school (doubly so in high-immigrant areas). Then, given the fact that the hardest thing for even high-IQ people to lose is the accent, he wants to take these students and shock immerse them in English!!? That’s not smart; that’s not even stupid, its insane. When the US military sends families to Europe, a sizable minority of students are sent to native schools (German, Italian, Turkish, etc.) Despite the fact that the military doesn’t choose for exceptional intelligence in soldiers/etc., even the children of “dumb” soldiers are conversant in less than six months (without losing a step in English conversating language.) It’s such a cliche, its been noted in European sketch comedy (eg. Parents who eat out 6 times a week, because they use their children for all translation needs, are always Americans, and the gun-toting type of American.) Putting ESL children in ESL classes stifled their ability to adapt (long-term) because it allows yet another barrier, it ghettoises them. There’s a world of difference between the teasing that 8 year old Italian immigrant Giulio receives for mixing up a few consonants and saying “Va fanculo” (instead of “Fuck you”) on the playground, and what he would receive at 14 when he’s suddenly mainstreamed and is surrounded by students who knew of him in passing and now “expect” him to sound “American”. A major part of the Asian-American success story (and, not coincidentally, of the failures) depends on being able to bridge the gap, and its much easier to get “L’s and R’s” sorted out with a pre-teen than a teenager. Even with Ebonics teaching (which, IIRC, you were against for plenty of reasons), it creates a barrier to proper English (and by proper, I mean English that people of multiple backgrounds would embrace). I’ve met my share of international black men (or as one of my senior NCOs used to call them, “jet settee, six-figure niggers”) when I lived in Europe. None of them, to a man or woman, would have been hired if they couldn’t code-switch. Code-switching is difficult enough when you have an even amount of exposure to multiple dialects, it becomes impossible when all but a couple years of your childhood are devoted to one sound (school, friends, home, all Black English Vernacular, then you’re supposed to become Atticus Finch as an adult? GTFOOH…)
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1.assimilation – become Anglo
2.withdrawal – become Latino
3.biculturalism – become part Anglo and part Latino
4.marginalization – become neither Anglo nor Latino
Linda says,
Abagond, your analogy actually fits almost all immigrants who come to US;
most immigrants go through these phases (not just Latinos) because it’s about being considered “foreign” or “other” by Americans. That’s what makes the transition difficult because in order to get along, at some point, you are forced, by your surroundings, to choose.
I guess you are using “Anglo” to represent “American” because the impact is the same for immigrants, whether they are in a predominate white American or black American neighborhood/school or in racially-diverse but divided city (like New York)
Assimilation: Depends on where you live. If in a predominate white/black American city–It’s easier for the young immigrant children to assimilate because they can make the transition quickly–they learn to speak like the American children very fast and their desire to make friends ensures that they learn English and lose their accents. It’s no fun being an outsider.
For older children and adults (like me), it’s harder because your identity is more or less established, and you never really lose your accent – so you are marked as a foreigner. I did not enjoy my 2 years in NJ high school. It takes time to adjust and the pressure to conform is intense, especially if you wish to make friends and fit in.
For my parents, Americans didn’t have much patience with them and typically, strangers assumed they didn’t understand English…they would speak slow and exaggerate their words, or talked down to them, like my parents were stupid or children.
I remember once going into the bank with my mother. She was upset because she was overcharged a fee. The teller spoke to her like she was 5 and was using a calculator to do the computations. My mother did the math in her head and gave the teller the correct figures while the teller was still punching the keys — don’t have to be American to do math.
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If the family lives in an area that has good size immigrant community where their native language is spoken outside of the home on the regular (like South Florida or south Texas), then there is no pressure to assimilate.
Withdrawal: When I returned to US, for me, this was the best option. I made sure to move to an area that was 30% Caribbean and Hispanic at the time. So, I only had to deal with negative feelings against immigrants at Work and my children didn’t have to feel any pressure at school because most of the children were bicultural like them. Funny enough, when I first moved to the area I lived in, there were many white and black Americans, but because so many Caribbeans and South Americans moved in, the Americans are now almost all gone (up North)
Biculturalism: My children (1st generation) are bilingual and bicultural. They are Americanized but love their West Indian/Honduran heritage and speak English, Jamaican Patois, and Spanish fluently. We speak all three in my house (sometimes in 1 sentence) but I spoke Spanish and Patois to them from birth–their first sentences were in Spanish and Patois. I wasn’t worried about English because I knew they would learn from their surroundings: child care, TV, neighbors, internet and school.
As long as the children can speak with someone in English at home, then there is no real impediment to them learning and understanding their studies at school–repetition and practice is how people learn any subject..
Marginalization: I am not too sure what this represents. Maybe this is the case for adopted children who don’t have any contact with people from their homeland or culture and cannot connect with their new American family — like I guess, a Korean or Haitian kid growing up in Wisconsin — not really accepted based on how they look and their race/ethnicity and no other Korean/ Haitian children in their school, church, or immediate surroundings to make a connection with.
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@ Randy
How does speaking another language at home translate into failing your `duties’ of engaging in the country’s civic and cultural life?
I never said one should not expect to have their culture affected, but should children of immigrants expect to be disconnected from their own families and unable to fully explore their backgrounds? All of my cousins have demonstrated keeping their culture has neither interfered with assimilating into local culture nor interfered with their English skills. So why do you want to convince me that losing ties to my family and background is okay? Do non-western cultures and languages in the homes of strangers bother you?
Would you be willing to move to your wife’s or her ancestors’ country of origin and never speak English or teach American culture to your children? Eat only local foods like stinky tofu, thousand-year-old eggs and stewed pig’s intestines with chopsticks? Never celebrate Thanksgiving again? Take your wife’s parents into your home and care for them?
In many mixed families who completely assimilated to one culture the children grew up somewhat disconnected from one parent. If you moved to East Asia, it would be you. They would never truly understand your strange, foreign ways. They may think of American culture and of your American relatives as `strange’ or even `stupid’ and may openly mock you and them. Much like how the father and children in White/East Asian families living in the west end up laughing at and mocking the East Asian mother for her traditions, behaviour, beliefs and English language skills. Especially when they reach school age and are bullied about having a different parent. Some learn to resent that parent even though it is not their fault. I have seen plenty of White/East Asian families try living out in East Asia and the White fathers almost always fail and flee back home or are miserable. Longing to return back to a familiar land with behaviour they can easily decipher, a language they can understand and landmarks and foods they recognise. Yet plenty of POC do this time and again, even without marrying a White person.
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[…] "The following is based mainly on Dr Beverly Tatum’s excellent book, “Why Are All The Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?” (1997). She talks only about Spanish-speaking Latinos who grow up in America (the U.S.): Being Latino is not a matter of nation or race. It is a matter of culture, of belonging to a Latin American culture. After all, you can be black or white or Indian or mixed and still be Latino. You can be Mexican or Cuban or American and still be Latino. Three stages that Latinos (and other people of colour) go through growing up in America: 1. unexamined ethnic identity – your ethnic identity is not a big deal, you barely think about it.2. ethnic identity search – it becomes a big deal, mainly because of experiences at school. You come to terms with what it means for you to be a member of your ethnic group. This can take years.3. achieved ethnic identity – you have a clear, positive sense of your ethnic identity." […]
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Iris:
Provided that it doesn’t impact children learning the local language or prevents the parents from participating in neighborhood and civic life, it doesn’t.
Iris:
We were previously discussing decisions that were made by immigrants a while back, and I suggested that my ancestors and yours erred on the side of caution in speaking only English in the home. I contend that it was probably a very reasonable decision to make given what they knew at the time. I’m not suggesting that’s the only choice or even the best choice.
As for non-western languages, they’re spoken in my home and by my own children (at my prompting no less), so no they don’t bother me.
Iris:
No, I would not want to do those things, except for caring for parents, which my wife and I both agree is a traditional filial duty that we support. However, we’d still be bound by the need to ensure our children were effectively assimilated enough in the host culture to participate and succeed academically, culturally, and occupationally.
Iris:
It’s a risk, for sure, and I’d hope that people consider these factors before immigrating to another country / marrying someone from another culture. By the way, I’ve observed such situations existing even within nations towards people who may come from a different regional culture.
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@Randy
I think I got the point, but maybe you missed mine. My point was that it was not a good analogy.
Sorry, but this is completely wrong.
1. Many Filipino families do indeed use at least some English at home – nearly all Filipino families have family members with varying degrees of facility in English. For some families, it is even the primary language.
2. Filipinos also have massive amounts of English language media to support their efforts.
– Most street signs in the Philippines and all highway signs are written in English. Most public notices are bilingual. Menus are in English or are bilingual. In fact, it is almost impossible to get by in the Philippines without at least some knowledge of English.
– TV and movies and radio and popular media are all FULL of English in the Philippines.
– Government is conducted primarily in English, as is higher level business negotiation.
– Education is primarily bilingual in primary school (with an emphasis on Filipino in the beginning), migrating to primarily in English at the tertiary level. This is not what immersion programs in the USA aim to do. In fact, it is the bilingual model of education which is closer to the Philippine situation.
I lived in several different Hispanic neighborhoods in the USA and travel often to the Philippines. I was just there again this past week. Have you spent much time in Hispanic neighborhoods in the USA as well as in the Philippines?
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Abagond:
As black people, we need to realize that “latino” is an issue revolving around language more so than race. Latino, the real definition, is 3 distinct races who speak the same language. A lot of us make the mistake of viewing the word thru a racial lens, we need to understand that. Spanish folk have created the false impression that they’re a race unto themselves, which is a bold face lie. The bilingual issue is a big part of the problem. If you migrate to another country by choice, you should learn the language. If i moved to Brazil, they would not bend over backwards to make exceptions for me, they would tell me to learn portugese. This is the crux of the issue. White spaniards are no different than other whites, spanish blacks have the same baggage as other blacks, and mestizos(indians) deal with the same ish as their kin in the US. The difference, white spaniards enjoy all the perks of white priviledge without the scrutiny, so, i don’t have a lot of sympathy for their plight. The other 2, they make it harder on themselves, because, they run from who they are. It’s 2012, white folk ain’t got it like that anymore, just saying. If we’re gonna deal with spanish folk in this country, we gotta speak honestly about what’s going on in relation to all blacks on this planet. Spain and Portugal can’t hide behind England and France anymore, they’re gonna get raked over the coals just as well.
Tyrone
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Jefe:
None of the people I visited there used English as the primary language. My wife speaks flawless English and to this day I’ve never heard her talk to any family or friends using it, even those who have been in the US for a decade or more and who have native-born spouses.
Jefe:
The vast majority of TV and radio programming which I observed was not in English. Even TFC (The Filipino Channel), a cable station based in the US and aimed at a diaspora audience has very little English content.
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@ Jefe:
Everything you mentioned is spot on. I don’t know what on earth Randy is talking about. Some families DO use English as a primary language. I should know. My family and other Filipino families spoke only English in the home as we were brought up in Canada. We are not the exception. I believe it depends on where you were raised, though. I think Randy’s wife is foreign-born. Of course, she’s going to speak Filipino rather than English to her family and friends.
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“Tyrone,
Latino, the real definition, is 3 distinct races who speak the same language.”
Linda says,
Why do persist, Tyrone?
Why is it so important for you to portray Latin American culture as a segregated culture/society like in USA?
What you should have wrote is:
“Latino, the real definition, is 3 distinct races, that blended together, who speak the same language”
You may not like it but too bad.
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leigh204,
Jefe is referring to the use of English in the Philippines. As you point out, Filipinos in the Philippines primarily use local dialects in personal / family conversations.
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@leigh204
Randy is from another planet . . .
I never denied that Filipinos in the Philippines primary use local dialects in personal / family conversations. I fully agree with that statement actually.
But,
– most Filipinos have family members with varying degrees of English competence. As the educational level of the individual rises, the more likelihood he will incorporate English in his daily speech.
– a minority of Filipino families use English a majority of the time.
AND, my main point that it was spurious to use the Philippines as an example to back his point. Filipinos scrambling to learn English? Yes, to a certain extent. But the method there is more akin to the bilingual mode of education (beginning with primarily Filipino in early primary school, migrating to more incorporation of English in the curriculum through High School with university almost entirely in English). I think the Philippine example supports the bilingual education proponents rather than pure language immersion education proponents.
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@Linda
Why is Tyrone a hater of Spain and Portugal? The two nations are the genesis of the transatlantic slave trade. Secondly, they’ve brainwashed black people to disavow their african ancestry, which is wickedness in every aspect. Thirdly, spanish culture is just as racist as other white cultures. Fourthly, white spaniards and indians seek to maintain control over blacks for their own benefit, which is why i have no respect for neither. Spanish culture is built around the notion of whites and indians living off of black people and culture. A lot of blacks in the US have enslaved themselves to the “People of Color” mindset that many in the civil-rights movement have shoved down our throats since the 1960s. Tyrone is his own person, i could care less about the NAACP, La Raza, Jesse Jackson, Democrats, Occupy Wall Street, etc. I don’t care what race you are, if you’re trying to exploit black people on this planet, i’m gonna slap you up side the head, figuratively speaking. I’m tired of soft blackmen on this planet allowing other men to step on our toes, sick of it. The same bs is taking place in Africa via the Chinese. Stupid blackmen fall for the colored man bs because they’re not white, but, are getting spanked just the same. China is in bed with Iran and Russia, and blacks in Africa have the nerve to talk smack about us in the US. Linda, stop trying to enslave your black brothers? Oftentimes, blackwomen get in bed with the enemies of their men, For What? Blackwomen in Africa jumping in bed with men from China, thinking they’re doing something. When China takes over Africa, what are they gonna say then Linda? Blackwomen gotta stop the nonsense Linda? Running around with white arab men, and the same group of men are brainwashing blackmen in North Africa to kill other blacks. This issue is deadly serious Linda, it’s not a game to me. Blackmen need to wake up and realize that other men want us out of the way, they don’t give a damn’ about us because they want what we have…the vast resources of africa and blackwomen as well. You know this Linda, so, why are you giving me a hard time about this? Back to the so-called latino issue, it’s a joke to me…Bottomline! Other blacks on this blog can punk themselves as much as they want, Tyrone is not that brotha.
Tyrone
The Black Eagles
PS…Abagond, i have a bone to pick with you brotha. Why are you giving other men a pass? You focus a lot of attention on american and european whitemen, but ignore those in the americas, central asia, and the chinese as well. What’s the deal Abagond?
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I notice that too. I guess once he gets hooked on a theme, he sticks with it. Also, the world in his mind is full of white Americans and British, and the rest of the world does not blip much on his radar.
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Hey Tyrone ,your views are quite clear and I empahize.
Do you have your own blog?
However I don’t think the true browns/indians are neccessilly our enemies,we should seek alliances where justice fails.
“Unless of course they are being groomed as a cheap labour force to serve Anglos….”
I was just watching Food Inc A documentry about the food industry and the whole lie of illegal latinos sneaking across the border was revealed.
The reason a lot of south american latino arrive here in america is because white/albinic people via corporations first destroy the local econmies of south american nations putting millions out of work.
Then get this – they adversite jobs here and even provide free transportation!!
But to keep them disorganized and off balance the same corporations owned and staffed by the most albinic of the europeans then have a deal with I.C.E/government/law-lie enforcement
to arrest and deport a certain percentage of them every week.
Is it a coincedence that the marjority of these lie-law enforcement officers are of the most albinic of phenotypes and the ones they select to arrest and deport are usually the darkest of brown?
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@ Randy
Then I’m sorry, but I don’t understand why you asked the question.
Unfortunately it was made to seem like a reasonable decision, even though no schools that tell parents this have presented any sort of research that backs it up. I also mentioned how my various cousins all spoke another language at home and were perfectly fine when it came to learning English, which is why I do not see the necessity in Latinos having to use English in the home when they most likely use it everywhere else.
I’m glad. My mother couldn’t have cared less, but perhaps if she had things would have been different.
I appreciate your honesty. You most likely realise your wife is doing a lot of these things you would not want to do, as are many immigrants in all different countries. After living in several different countries I have noticed it is almost always the POC immigrants that are expected to assimilate the most, whereas White immigrants are forgiven for feeling more comfortable with (or in some cases, wanting to cling to) their original culture.
I think most people don’t think that far ahead unless they’ve already discussed children. Plus, when people are so in love, I suppose they still believe it can conquer all. As for immigrating, you’d be surprised how little you learn through research and even visiting a place before you immigrate there. Nothing can truly prepare you for it unless you are rich enough to visit a place for at least a few months and already know enough of the language to chat to locals.
Yes, it’s true you can even have such situations when people are from different cultures within a region. It is worsened when race gets involved and when the dominant culture agrees with those family members that mock the father/mother for being different.
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what if you just see yourself and other people as a human and acknowledge your roots for what they are, but don’t let them dictate who you are, how you act, who you’re friends with, who you date, etc? I’ve never felt embarrassed for being african.. the world is a diverse place.
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From laromana:
Linda says,
“Tyrone,
Latino, the real definition, is 3 distinct races who speak the same language.”
Linda says,
Why do persist, Tyrone?
Why is it so important for you to portray Latin American culture as a segregated culture/society like in USA?
What you should have wrote is:
“Latino, the real definition, is 3 distinct races, that blended together, who speak the same language”
You may not like it but too bad.
laromana says,
Linda, thanks for pointing out how the IRRATIONAL/INVENTED social construct of “race” as used in America/incorrectly projected onto Latinos, has NO BASIS in a person’s ACTUAL identity (DISTINCTIVEETHNICITY/LANGUAGE/CULTURE/CUSTOMS) but rather their “PERCEIVED IDENTITY” (according to RACISTnotions).
Many Americans choose to deny the fact that “race” in America is/has NOT always been “set in stone” (eg. Irish were not always classifed as “White”, mixed race Native/White and Asian/White people were not always classifed as “White”) but mainly involves a SYSTEM INVENTED to REWARD those who are classified as “White”/Non-Black with UNEARNED/”RACE” BASED privileges (eg. better jobs, housing, fairer treatment in the justice system, etc), while PUNISHING those who are classifed as “Black” with UNEARNED “RACE” BASED disadvantages (discriminatory treatment in jobs, housing, justice system, etc.).
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Im a second-generation puerto rican. I have had to come to terms with my ethnic identity. Apparently the term “trigueño” does not exist here which is how my parents refer to me(literally translates to as “wheat-colored”) and is how i prefer to reference my skin color. Make matters worse, I live in Saint Louis which is still mostly a black/white divide so I cannot use that term since no one will understand it. Also, because of my hair, I do not look like the stereotypical hispanic and people can usually tell that I have african ancestry. I am currently able to accept the fact that I’m “tri-racial” however it is not a big part of my identity and I reject any attempts by people referring me as “half black” which translates to me as “mulato” or biracial.
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Sorry but there is not such a thing as Latin American Culture, that is a U.S invention every country in south, central and the caribbean has its own culture we are not the same and is disrespectful to put us all in the same bag just because we speak the same language, are Jamaicans, Australians and Americans the same? no of course they’re not.
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@Tyrone
It’s ignorant and offensive to call someone “Spanish” or talk about “Spanish people/Spanish folk” when you are referring to anyone other than actual Spanish people (from Spain aka Spaniards) or people you are sure are of 100% Spanish descent and wish to be called that (because you ASKED them). Just because the Spanish colonized your ancestors does not make you Spanish. Are you “English” and your people “English folk” because English men raped your ancestors and forced them to speak English?
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