Grada Kilomba is a Portuguese psychiatrist, writer and scholar with roots in São Tomé and Príncipe in West Africa. She teaches at the Free University in Berlin. In her book “Plantation Memories” (2008) she wrote about stories of everyday racism – like about hair or the n-word – from a psychoanalytical point of view. A kind of latter-day Frantz Fanon.
Kilomba says that race is political, not biological, that it comes from a time when blacks were slaves and colonial subjects of whites:
White is not a color. White is a political definition, which represents historical, political and social privileges of a certain group that has access to dominant structures and institutions of society. Whiteness represents the reality and history of a certain group. When we talk about what it means to be white, then we talk about politics and certainly not about biology. Just like the term black is a political identity, which refers to a historicity, political and social realities and not to biology.
and:
Whenever a person is confronted with racism at that precise moment, he or she is being treated as the subordinate and exotic “other” like in colonial times.
The European media teaches us what it means to be white or black: Whites are heroes while blacks are pictured as helpless, dependent, criminal, exotic, etc.
Growing up black in Europe leads to alienation: you see yourself through the eyes of white people, not through your own eyes; you talk about yourself through the language of white people, not through your own language.
To decolonize your mind to overcome this, to heal your soul, you need:
- To have positive, empowering images of blacks, like Barack Obama, black heroes in Hollywood films, black writers, etc. Blacks need to tell and hear their own stories.
- To know the history of the African Diaspora – to know where you came from. That history is lost and broken, but Americans are starting to recover it and piece it back together.
- To take care of yourself.
For whites to undo their racism they have face up to their own power and privilege, to their own history of brutality and terror. It is not easy:
It starts with denial, goes on with guilt and then comes shame, which allows one to achieve recognition afterward. Once you have achieved recognition, you can start repairing structures, the so-called reparation.
White people often ask: “Am I racist?” This is a moral question, which is not really productive because the answer would always be: “Yes.” We have to understand that we are educated to think in colonial and racist structures. The question should instead be: “How can I deconstruct my own racism?” This would be a productive question that already opposes the first step, denial, and initiates that psychological process.
There is no such thing as true reverse racism: how can the oppressed oppress their oppressors? But if you make whites feel guilty about racism they will see you as the racist one to avoid facing the truth about themselves.
Sources: Her video “Dealing with Racism in Europe” and an interview with AfricAvenir.
See also:
Funny, I’m no psychiatrist but I’ve said here multiple times how race is a social concept. It’s strange how you put that out there, and then continue to talk about both “black” and “white” people in such a divisive way
It’s also funny because I experienced far less racism in England compared to America. I plan on moving back to London in a couple years, too. Not only am I attached to the place because it’s where I’m from (and I have Cameroonian roots), but it’s also just a great city, like many other cities around Europe.Obviously, what many European countries did in the past was sick, but I’m not going to hold a grudge on people just because what their ancestors did. That’s just stupid. Yeah, many bad people still exist around the world, but so do many good people.. you can’t just lump everyone into one group like that.
I disagree with the notion that growing up in Europe leads to alienation. Where are you pulling this crap from? I feel more alienated in America than I felt in England, tbh. And if we’re all humans, and race is just a social concept, why does it matter that the English language started by people of a different skin color than you? There’s no obligation to know the language of your ancestors. I think you’re exaggerating the value of keeping up with the cultural traditions of your ancestors. I don’t need to look to others to form my identity. It comes from me. As I’ve lived in various places, my personal culture is.. like a patchwork quilt. And I love that. I’d hate to be restricted to something just to uphold tradition, when it didn’t really make me happy. that’s just bullsh**.
And I find it offensive that you assume that just because someone is white, they are inherently racist. so, is everyone else inherently racist, too? or just whites? what bollocks. many people actually see each other as individuals.. idk if it’s hard for you to comprehend, abagond, but it’s actually possible, and comes natural to many. just because I see the way the media projects things doesn’t mean I can’t use my brain to decipher whether to take them as truth or not. It’s just television, not actually real life. It’s not rocket science.
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People shouldn’t feel like they can only truly connect with others that are their “race”. I don’t think that should be encouraged. I can travel anywhere and feel a connection to people. It’s one of my favorite things about visiting different places, actually. Seeing how people are truly no different, at the core.
Why the need to constantly guilt trip people, for things that happened in the past, out of their control (unless they themselves were racist)? Do you think Martin Luther King would have endorsed us just wallowing in past problems like that? Why did he have a “I have a Dream Speech” instead of a “Let’s punish white people for Slavery and Jim Crow” speech? People just need to move on. I hope by the time I have kids they won’t have to deal with this sort of thing as much, so that more time can actually be spent by people doing more constructive things in the world
Also, just because someone else shares your skin color doesn’t mean you must see them in a positive light, or that you will have anything in common with them, aside from physical characteristics. Just thinking about it, someone’s a role model to me based on what they do/did, not how they look. Abraham Lincoln was white but that doesn’t mean he can’t inspire me to pick myself up after facing hardships.
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@ Dee
This post presents Grada Kilomba’s opinions, not mine. Unlike me, she is a psychiatrist and has lived her whole life in Europe, so I presented her opinions not mine. Although she is talking about Europe most of what she says seems to apply to America as well. She never says whether America is worse or better – just that its blacks have produced more in the way of positive black images and research on Diasporan history, which is helpful to blacks elsewhere.
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@dee In an ideal world everyone would think as you do but we don’t live in an ideal world.
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Oppressed groups can morph into oppressor groups. For instance, the Flemish. First they suffered under Walloon oppression, but now the Flemish movement is closely allied to American Imperialism and Zionism, as well as being virulently Islamophobic at home.
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@ Dee
The main reason racism continues, at least in America, is just what she said: whites failing to face up to their own power and privilege, to their own history of brutality and terror.
More here:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/01/02/why-do-whites-hate-demonize-fear-or-look-down-on-blacks/
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The problem with @dee is that her thoughts have neither selfishness or teeth and claws to which her own radiant tolerance could be measured up. Her mind is like a rent free house, no questions asked, all you need is come in and start eating.
But come a negro down on his luck around the street corner, and it’s a litany of ‘we shouldn’t think this, *tsk tsk*, we must not do that *tut tut*, just because we share the same skin colour *kumbaya this! kumbaya that!*.
What’s the point of being generous when you can’t even shape a selfish thought in your own mind. Could that still be called generosity.
Which part is absolute conviction and which is mere conditioning ?
As a side note, i find strange that the author, as a psychiatrist, choses to define race as political rather than social. Maybe she’s conflating nativism and racism which would make sense in Europe.
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There is racism in Europe, no doubt about it. Kilomba is right whe she says it is social and I think cultural thing.
It was invented and was really formed into a cohesive ideology only in 1800’s trough the race biology. Those guys gathered ideas and bits and pieces and dressed them up in “scientific” form which was eagerly adapted by colonialistic elites and their brethren particulary in USA as an explanation and justification for their deeds and conquering and exploitation.
It is good to remember that in the beginning race theories were also used also as a tool to opress some european people too: the Saami in Lapland, the irish, the finns, the celts etc. Of course they were used to mould the public opinion about the italians and spanish and other mediterannean people vs the germanische stock, so called “northern race”. This of course lead to the nazi race theories and the holocaust of jews and gypsies etc.
After WW2 racism became officially denied in many countries. Some countries have even multiple laws against racism. In 1970’s racism was very much dissappearing, Parties such as National Front in UK slipped into nut fringe movements and racist were seen as something of exceptions and weirdoes.
From the 1980’s however, american racist organisations, KKK among them, started to advance their cause actively in Europe. Skinhead fashion, working class hooligan fashion, was shaped as racist skinhead movement and racist white power rock was invented and marketed for kids across the Europe along the ideology. America racist organisations provided funding and advice for their european friends. They even attempted to hijack football hooliganism across the Europe because its huge publicity in games. That, lucky for us, mainly failed, though in some clubs and cases they succeeded.
The big difference between the european racism and american racism is that unlike in Europe, racism in USA is part of the official system. In many european countries nobody cares about your skin color BUT ones nationality. If you are a citizen, you have no official racial identity. It all depends on the status of citizenship. You are either a citizen or foreigner.
In USA it is repeated and repeated in questionaires, forms, official papers, police raports, insurance papers and documents, pasports etc. Race, Race. Race. Black. White. Hispanic. Asian. On and on. Even if you are not a “real racist” you are surrounded by a system that makes it absolutely sure that race is a central issue, a central thing in ones being, essential of humanbeing.
That is a big difference I think today.
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An excellent follow up post from some recent comments by Bulanik Abagond. And as you correctly stated to Dee:
I too am from the UK and Europe having lived my whole life here and completely agree with Dr Grada Kilomba’s analysis. Race is, and is used, Politically. It may be a political or it may be a social construct – It matters not!
It is an Artificial construct and that is what is most important to realize and understand. This is why it has equal importance in the American context as it does else where or world wide.
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Kilomba’s theories about racism are rather self-serving psychobabble, but that’s the common product of that profession. The “social sciences” are amusingly named, given that they bear little resemblance to “real” sciences.
In the latter, you’ll find an eschewing of dogma and the minimization of ego. The former offers nearly the reverse.
Kilboma:
Oh, how convenient! No double standard here. Restated, the passage reads: “My group can never be guilty, while yours always is.”
Besides sheltering an obvious logical fallacy, the moral hubris of that concept is quite astounding. No wonder she’s popular among those whose thirst for simple, soothing answers.
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Well, as a biologist I would rather consider race as a scientific concept, one used to describe reality but, certainly in its common understanding, completely obsolete. The use of it, certainly combined with idiotic concepts such as the one-drop rule, is clearly socio-political.
A short time ago a baby foundling was found in a Dutch city, at the entrance of the parking lot of a police station, which at the time was visited by ambulance personel and was in WALKING DISTANCE of an academic hospital.
Baby was taken care off, and the police went after the mother and/or child abandoner. Kidnapping, psychosis, murder and what not might be involved. Looking for witnesses pictures of the baby were released to the media, and it was told with the picture that the baby was of Asian descent.
On the internet some Dutch people showed they were really baffled that the police was telling that, while searching for the family of the Unidentified Found Baby.
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Haven’t read the book but sounds like a good book. I haven’t come across (nor have I been looking) for scientific books on racism this day.
Race you can call it a construction, social, political, biological. A construction none the less. But do know that that’s not your own idea, somebody had it before you, and somebody will repeat it after you. Of course it’s always good to repeat to loose grounds for a biological construction of race. But don’t use it as an argument to disprove an argumentation on another take on race. In medical treatment, biological differences between people of different descent matter, in politics descent matter. Not just a social construction, but something real which sometimes matters. And of course it’s a social construction as well.
Europeans who still live in Europe usually didn’t own plantations. In my grandparents genealogy there is no money made with slavery. So I think the culture here (in Europe) is less influenced by day to day racism, as it used to be on the plantations in the carribean. The Dutch were one of the last to abolish slavery, due to indifference caused by not experiencing it in the homeland. Reasons for racism in the Netherlands nowadays are more because of immigration of former colonies and indentured labour in the seventies.
My two cents, am just on a short break at work
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Kilboma:
“There is no such thing as true reverse racism: how can the oppressed oppress their oppressors?”
Ever heard of the French revolution, the October revolution, that funny episode, when the Dutch colonial army got shot at by Bush nengre? Some of the Jews remaining in transit camps now used to store Nazi-sympathizers? The Red Army in WW II? LIBYA?
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“Kilomba’s theories about racism are rather self-serving psychobabble, but that’s the common product of that profession”
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The only babble I see here is from you.
You seem to think that because gnats and jumbo jets both have wings and can fly, that makes them comparable.
You know Randy .. you really don’t deserve to be heard, seen, contested, replied or responded to. I shall do my best to remember this the next time you post some silly/stupid nonsense.
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“The Dutch were one of the last to abolish slavery, due to indifference caused by not experiencing it in the homeland.”
FALSE!!! Abolition of slavery in 1863, true, the former slaves still had to work for the white man for the next ten years, but they were free to change employers, so they were not slaves anymore.
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@ Abagond
I am also from the UK and I experienced far less racism there than in the United States. I think it’s because Europeans seem to identify with ethnicity and class more than actual skin colour. Now, I know that’s not always the case.
But that’s always been the bulk of my experience.
America and its one drop rule, paves the way for the way you are treated.
It’s funny because when I used to travel to visit family, my race and ethnic
make-up would change along with the country! LOL!
I agree that whites need to own up to their racism. No easy feat. That would include admitting some terrible things about their nature.
I want to believe that it could be undone, but the older I get, the more dubious I become.
Good post!
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“Grada Kilomba
Growing up black in Europe leads to alienation: you see yourself through the eyes of white people, not through your own eyes; you talk about yourself through the language of white people, not through your own language.”
This is an interesting statement that she made, it’s like she is saying that being black in Europe is more like “a concept, a theory that has no roots” whereas,
being black in America, the black American identity is a concrete definition of self because blacks in America have roots.
Black Americans have a more clear cultural and national identity because their ancestors lived, suffered, triumphed, and died in America for over 400 years and are a strong part of American history (and it’s a shame that they have to fight so hard to remind other Americans about that fact.)
in comparison, “blacks” in Europe are like visitors that never left, even if their ancestors have been there for 100 years. It’s easier to cling to your ethnic heritage and culture because then you have roots.
Overall, the racism in Europe is no where Near the racism in US, there is a different quality and feel to it.
I don’t know if it’s because the Europeans are so Nationalistic and xenophobic with each other that blacks just don’t even fit into the equation or because traditionally they already have a group that they despise (such as the Turks in Germany, or the Gypsies in Czech Republic)….in the US, the depised group are the black Americans
I found Classism to be a problem in Europe and definitely prejudice based on nationality / ethnicity.
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Oh, how convenient! No double standard here. Restated, the passage reads: “My group can never be guilty, while yours always is.”
Randy just hit the nail on the head.
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@teddy1975
Source: http://entoen.nu/slavernij/en
“At the end of the eighteenth century outrage against the slave trade was growing. This was true in the Netherlands too, even though discussions were often dominated by the interests of slave owners. Under pressure from the English the slave trade was prohibited in 1814. In the Netherlands, the abolition of slave labour and slavery did not follow until 1 July 1863, making it one of the very last countries in Europe to emancipate its slaves.”
Next one wikipedia, can’t find the books right now:
Britain abolished slavery throughout the British Empire with the Slavery Abolition Act 1833, the French colonies abolished it 15 years later (so 1848), while slavery in the United States was abolished in 1865 with the 13th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
If you abolish slavery officialy does that mean that slavery does not exist anymore? For ten years to come slaves where free to work on other plantations, not to move away from the plantations systems. How is that freedom?
TRUE!!!!!! The Dutch were pretty late…. Btw I’m Dutch and White so I have nothing to gain from badmouthing my people. I’m not saying this blog isn’t biased, cause I think it is. But don’t spread your opinion based on false facts. If you want to be stupid on verifiable facts go ahead.
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@destructure
Oh, how convenient! No double standard here. Restated, the passage reads: “My group can never be guilty, while yours always is.”
Randy just hit the nail on the head.
You have to read carefully. Kilomba says that race is political, not biological, that it comes from a time when blacks were slaves and colonial subjects of whites. If you say race is political and in your discourse you only treat it as such. You can say a thing like:
There is no such thing as true reverse racism: how can the oppressed oppress their oppressors?
TRUE reverse racism can’t exist doesn’t mean reverse racism doesn’t exist. It means if you see racism as a political instrument, you can’t regard reverse racism as TRUE racism. You can regard it as reactionist racism or give it another name, still racism but from a different order. And given the history of racist theory a very valid point.
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RBB85, I know that, but with limiting your group to European countries with American possessions, you are talking about a very small group. The USA, Brazil and Puerto Rico were later. The Dutch were pretty late, yes, but not among the last. The process of abolition was going on, in most of the Dutch colonies it had already been long abolished, and unfortunately in Surinam slave owners knew slavery would be abolished and thus the hunt for runaways and the breeding of slaves increased. The reason was more that the Dutch took their time to plan the abolition in a society with slaves far outnumbering the free.
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Why do black people always mention blacks with obvious white ancestry when talking about positive black role models? It’s like talking about beautiful black women then posting a picture of Rashida Jones or Halle Berry. Are blacks keeping the one drop rule alive to add the contributions of all significantly partially black people to the list of black achievements?
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@dee
I’m not going to hold a grudge on people just because what their ancestors did…. many bad people still exist around the world, but so do many good people….why does it matter that the English language started by people of a different skin color than you….you assume that just because someone is white, they are inherently racist….Why the need to constantly guilt trip people, for things that happened in the past
FINALLY, a person on this blog with a head on their shoulders (besides me and a few others)!!!! Thank you, thank you, Dee!!! I know we don’t agree on everything, but please do what you can to convince the racist numbsk*lls on this site about the truth of your statements. I have seen more wisdom in your statements than all the rest put together!!
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RBB85:
That seems like a reasonable analysis, although her direct statements don’t seem to be limited to the “political”.
(I still think there’s a handful of fallacies in her reductionist model of “oppressors” inasmuch as she alleges that they cannot also be “oppressors” themselves, but let’s set that aside for a moment.)
Kilomba’s explicitly stating that white people themselves are all racist, not that white people have benefited from racist systems which were originated long before their births.
This mixing of contexts seems difficult to reconcile.
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@Abagond
The main reason racism continues, at least in America, …. whites failing to face up to their own power and privilege, to their own history of brutality and terror. Another lame a** statement from Abagond!! Go and read what Dee wrote!!! He/She has more wisdom then you will ever have.
The “history of brutality and terror” is GONE, DONE!! Start living in the present, instead of looking for a handout for something that happened decades before you or I were born.
“whites failing to face up to their own power and privilege”. Exactly why should I face up to anything?? Just to give it to you?? Blacks need to get their act together if they want to advance. What whites have – we EARNED!! You don’t have it, because you haven’t earned it.
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@Linda
in comparison, “blacks” in Europe are like visitors that never left, even if their ancestors have been there for 100 years. It’s easier to cling to your ethnic heritage and culture because then you have roots
LOL, the analogy for some might be too close for comfort, and for the more extreme, it would be the ‘uninvited guest’ which we know was not the case but anyway, I digress. Yes, there is a strong link to ethnic heritage and culture, maybe due to the fact that many immigrants to the UK were from Isles that were part of British Colonies so there was a basic understanding of ‘difference’s’ and ‘similarities’ besides the obvious. Also, many countries in the colony were taught much about the British culture and way of life so the basic understanding was reciprocated to this degree.
Yes, there was a need to dispel the myths as usual and ‘educate’ i.e. not all black people with dark complexions are from Africa *rolls eyes*, yes, Black people can eat chips *SMH* but, preconceived notions from Brits prevail about individuals in other parts of Europe too. Any Brit will tell you that when you go on holiday, the Germans will ALWAYS steal ALL the sunbeds!!!!!!!
From what I have read here and what I know from family members/friends in the U.S, comparitively, racism in the U.K is different but its the same difference. Implicit, overt, being marginalised, though the differences may occur in how and why this manifests itself.
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Why does the language aspect “only” apply to race, why not different nationalities and cultures as well?
IE someone who has german heritage etc….growing up in an english speaking society instead of learning german.
What makes cultures more heavily associated with race being a greater loss than ones that aren’t?
I mean all immigrants have that loss, what makes it so much worse when its a black person immigrated to an anglo-country or vice-a-versa?
Racism, not just in those countries but within ourselves…..we view our loss of cultures to those of not our race as being worse than to those who are of our race, simply because of race, not because of cultural disimiliarities etc….
Another interesting question is….why is the US so much better at cultural diversity as represented in the media than Europe which is notably less racist than us?
For that matter; ever since I’ve found out european countries are less likely to do things that keep stock of race, I’ve always found that doubtful, those aren’t the actions of someone who is innocent, you don’t try to cover up a crime or hide information if you dont’ think you have done something.
I suspect they know they are racist, they just don’t want to show/know “how” racist they really are.
As for how can the oppressed, oppress their oppressors…..think about how the black faction of our society has managed to change things over the years in the US.
Do you think the conservatives/republicans wanted that? No, they were a strong aspect of our society for many years and yet a smaller piece was able to force them, despite their greater numbers, greater wealth and far greater involvement in the political process to do things they didn’t want done.
Now admitably this was civil rights etc….but it is an example of how a small group can overcome and “oppress” a larger group.
Oppress in the sense of make them do something they don’t want to do, treat black people as viable human beings.
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Interesting post. I thought you also might be interested in this post on Racism in Europe (France) as well:
http://deloryswelchtyson.blogspot.fr/2010/07/racism-in-france-is-it-racism-or.html
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I found Dee’s comment very interesting. As a Afro caribbean Black person living in Europe and North America, I’ve all been exposed to many cultures through travelling found the world.
I’ve picked and chosen certain values /habits from the different cultures I’ve been exposed to. Most of my friends are from all over the world and I move easily with them.
That being said, I’ve found it beneficial to be armed with positive Black historical facts, figures because there is such a blatant and subtle negative onslaught about Black culture.
Over the years, I usually have to gently correct my non-black friends about certain things they’ve said as they haven’t made an active attempt to question what the media says about all the negative things that are said about Black people. Why would they?
It’s a well known fact that historically, rulers always recorded and exaggerated their successes and achievements while omitting their own faults, weaknesses or battle losses. They also minimised or destroyed the achievements and culture of those whom they have oppressed. It’s a human trait that has been displayed over and over again when archaeologists have found ancient writings and scrolls. Right now, in this world, Blacks aren’t the ruling class nor do we have the loudest voice . Sure enough, the White countries I’ve been to are nowhere as glamourous as the media makes them out to be. Similarly, the Black countries I have been to have been much nicer, richer and safer and developed than the media made them out to be.
Black kids need to be aware that their skin colour will be used against them. There are many people on this world who will always kind something vulnerable in others and use it as a weapon to degrade that person.
i plan to educate my Black children so that not if, but when they meet these insecure people or when they hear all these negative stories about Black stereotypes, Africa, their knowledge will provide immunity agint these specific attacks. And will give them a chance to educate their non Black friends.
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@Lapp:
Why do black people always mention blacks with obvious white ancestry when talking about positive black role models? It’s like talking about beautiful black women then posting a picture of Rashida Jones or Halle Berry. Are blacks keeping the one drop rule alive to add the contributions of all significantly partially black people to the list of black achievements?
—
Nice try, Lapp. Care to discuss anything regarding the post?
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“Demerera,
Also, many countries in the colony were taught much about the British culture and way of life so the basic understanding was reciprocated to this degree.”
You are spot on. It’s kind of like Great Britian and Europe reaped what they sowed, they put out the invitation…
I used to find it amusing when the Germans complained about the Turks, I mean, the German government invited them to be “guest workers” then 30 years later, society expected them to pack it in and go home.
Same with England, they were busy “conquering” the world and indoctrinating their colonies about the greatness of the “mother country”, so where else are we to go when we wish to further our education and finances…exactly as we were lead to believe, back to the mother country!
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@Nom De Plume
Basically yeah; thats pretty off topic, if Lapp wants to talk about that there are posts about black beauty or black accomplisments on this blog that the comment would be on-topic on.
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V-4 wrote:
“Now admitably this was civil rights etc….but it is an example of how a small group can overcome and “oppress” a larger group.
Oppress in the sense of make them do something they don’t want to do, treat black people as viable human beings.”
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But are we truly treated as viable human beings when a black man, even the POTUS can be openly disrespected, mocked, marginalized and threatened due to his race? How viable are we when blacks are routinely shot dead on American streets under the cloak of the legal system, yet there’s hardly a whimper from the white collective to end this type of killing?
Many of the gains made by the Civil Rights movement of the 50s & 60s have been incrementally lost or attacked by white backlash and zero-sum tactics.
You need to get this fact straight in your head. Blacks fought for change, but never once have we possessed the power to make whites do anything. The Feds alone did that through troops and laws… some of which are no longer enforced today.
We know that in the minds of many or most whites, we are not seen as viable human beings.
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@Lapp:
Sorry about misreading your comment.
It’s difficult to find black people with no black ancestry, especially in the U.S. IMO, most people people look at a person’s accomplishments. I don’t believe a person’s mixed background has anything to do with them being considered a role mode.
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@V-4
I changed my statement after re-reading point 1 of the post. Maybe Lapp really doesn’t have a clue.
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And yet, certain whites, I won’t mention names but most of you know who I’m talking about, will stick to the idea that race is biological.
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This is interesting, but I’m not really sure if watching Hollywood movies would help anybody.
I would also like to hear what Kilomba has to say about racism in Europe (as the opposite of racism in general). Some people (of all races) often claim there are different ways racism manifest itself in Europe, Americas, Africa and Asia, so it would be great to learn more about it.
I don’t think Europeans are less racist than the Americans, but there are some cultural differences that influence the way race is articulated (same goes for racism). For example, having a black woman to be a love interest in a movie that’s not about race is almost unheard of in America, but it happens in European movies. Does this mean Europe is less racist? No. But it does show that there are some differences between the way racial issues are treated.
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@Matari
True; black people aren’t really seen as equivalent humans beings as compared to white people by the majority of the US.
But even that much was against the will of the powers that be at one point.
And black people did fight for those rights and yes it took the feds etc….to make sure those rights were maintained but it did happen.
And its still an example of how a smaller group or an oppressed group can managed to oppress another.
I mean; by that perspective almost anything attributed to black people over the years inregards to civil movements etc….shouldn’t be because they lacked the numbers, economics and legal power and used the federal goverment to enforce it for them.
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@dee
Race is not a social concept that can be molded into whatever we want it to be. Why do you and others feel the need to make black people feel guilty about their blackness just to make whites less insecure about their lack of blackness? The post-racial argument doesn’t make sense to me. I know it and you know it as well Dee. Black people should love themselves and their african heritage without apology…Period! White racism is not just about having power over african people. As i’ve said before many times, if whites loved being white so much, why would they obsess over black people as much as they do? From my perspective as a blackman, white folk are the ones with racial hangups, not us. Dee, live in the real world, not in “Utopia?”
Tyrone
Mindscape
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Linda, why should the Germans have expected that Turkish people would act different than other people from the Mediterranean? The Italians went home, the Portuguese, the Spanish, the Greeks…
Mira, I guess I disagree, Europe, though small is much too large to be described as if it is one country, in my corner of Europe languague, nationality and religion beat race as important issues to be a bigot about. I guess that on average Europeans are less racist, because race is not important to many of them. Not important at all, I mean do you think that the IRA would have cared about race, if you were a fellow Roman-Catholic militant enemy of You-Know-Who?
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As for that women who says not to get into debates about racism in France, that seems pretty iffy to me, kind of comes off that she likes her new country and doesn’t want to bad talk it or get negative feelings about it.
Or maybe she was used to engaging americans in debates and wasn’t prepared for a people that could actually debate in our educational systems are anything to go by and ended up debating a racist who was pretty good at debating as compared to american racists.
Because lets be honest, I suspect anything used in France to justify racism is just mirrored in the US to justify racism or bigotry, xenophobia whatever.
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@Teddy1975
My knowledge of Europe is minimal but isn’t Turkey, that is the name right?, relatively poor as compared to Spain, Italy etc…..?
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Quite a bit of resistance to the ideas presented here – that makes this a good post in my book 😉
Racism has its roots in the colonial rampage (land/body grab) that spanned approximately 500 years. Europeans didn’t colonise because they were racist, they were racist because they colonised – it is an important distinction. The racist ideologies that therefore justified and bolstered colonial practice continues as strongly today as it ever has. In that sense Kilomba is completely correct – steeped in racist ideologies of the superiority of all things white racism is everywhere whether white on black/brown, or internalised racism as evidenced with Dee which is perpetuated on black/brown brothers and sisters to discipline their behaviour “don’t be talking bout this racism shit”. My 2c.
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V-4, I guess it is good advice.
Don’t get involved before you know the battlefield, unless you want to give your enemies a huge advantage.
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“teddy1975
Linda, why should the Germans have expected that Turkish people would act different than other people from the Mediterranean? The Italians went home, the Portuguese, the Spanish, the Greeks…”
Don’t get me wrong, I completely understand why the Germans might want the ‘auslanders” to go home…after all, they just finished getting rid of the jews.
My point is, if you invite someone with an almost open-door policy, then you should expect that they may like your house better than their own.
Guest workers were typically poor people who went to Germany for economic reasons, so it’s not too crazy to believe that they might want to stay and continue to ride the gravy train.
From my understanding, some guest workers (Turks, Italiens, Spanish, etc)went home once they saved up money and the German government also paid some to go home.
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V-4, Not really anymore, Turkey has a pretty big and healthy economy now, but the important thing is more about where can I make more money, and if the recruiting is mostly done in backwards parts of the country, you know, people stuck in villages and all that, the deal could be a very good obe for those people.
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“obe” should be “one”, of course.
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* V-4
“And its still an example of how a smaller group or an oppressed group can managed to oppress another.”
**************************************
Is a wife oppressive toward her husband when she calls law enforcement to make her husband stop beating her?
Your misuse of “oppress” is part of the snafu that tells of the wide, insurmountable (perception) chasm (aka the white racial frame) that exists between blacks and whites.
Please tell me where and when in America have blacks used the power of the state (de facto or de jure) to routinely kill, maim, steal, rape, murder, lynch, bomb, evict, banish, imprison, under-educate, red-line, build highways through white communities thereby destroying their economic viability, charge higher percentage rates for car and mortgage loans, stop and search white people??
Why would you deem the quest for liberty, justice and freedom for EVERYONE as something “oppressive?” Should not these principles/rights be afforded to all citizens, especially those citizens whose unpaid and mistreated ancestors are largely responsible for being the wealth generation engine, without which America could NOT have become a superpower?
Please explain exactly what yokes of oppression blacks have placed around the necks of white people by getting a few sparse crumbs from the table of plenty?
(we’re not talking about European racism now so we should continue this on the open thread – that is if you care to)
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As usual, another great post Abagond. Thanx for always serving up subjects and material that forces me to critically think.
@Nom de Plume..."IMO, most people look at a person’s accomplishments. I don’t believe a person’s mixed background has anything to do with them being considered a role mode."
I don’t think Lapp has a clue either (particularly about Black folk and that whole, keeping-the-one-drop-rule-going motivation). While I totally agree with the first part of your opinion, I think unfortunately – though it IS thankfully changing as more and more Black folk not only accept, but downright love their appearance more (i.e. hair, skin color, lips, etc.) – the second part remains an ongoing part of that “traumatic, always-reactualized reality” about which Dr. Kilomba speaks in the video. And not only for Blacks in America, but for many Africans as well – at least many whom I met over the past couple years during trips to West Africa (another spawn of colonialism’s ongoing, ugly influence, no doubt).
The photos used as examples in the video after she said:
“The only way to desalinate, to decolonize our minds, to heal our souls, is to have very positive and very empowering images of Black people…and in this, the US plays a crucial role…” – certainly gave me pause.
Why? Because, each (maybe with the exception of Tyler Perry) represented to me, a perfect example of her description of “the collective unconscious of Black people,” which she says (and with which I agree) is pre-programmed to be in a state of “alienation, of depersonalization…of looking at itself, from the perspective of the other…of speaking about itself with the language of the other, with the language of those who oppressed them…”
IMHO, though Barack Obama is POTUS, I find him neither positive, nor empowering (particularly when it comes to Black folk in the diaspora), but rather, the opposite of both. Same for most Black heroes in Hollywood films (“Hollywood” – created by, and primarily continuing to exist to date, because of alabaster hands – being the operative word for that train of thought).
Now there are Black writers that I find both positive and empowering, based not on the fact that they’ve become accomplished (read published)writers (until recently, the alabaster hands of others have also decided who is published and who is not), but based on WHAT they’ve accomplished with their writing – namelythe telling of our stories so that all of us can not only hear them, but share them (particularly with our children). By doing so, they’ve prevented the erasure of our very rich, and enduring culture.
I guess what I’m saying/asking is – Is just seeing a Black face in a perceived position of power enough to empower? For me, the answer is no.
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Oh, don’t get me started on nationality and ethnic issues in Europe… I could write novels about it. But it’s not the subject of this post.
I’m an European and of course I’m aware it can’t be seen as one country. But I oversimplified for the sake of the argument, since that’s the title of this post.
One thing I’ve noticed about Europe in general (as the opposite of US), is that here, ethnicity (not to be confused with race) means more than in the US. Meaning, if you’re white in the US, you are white and no further questions asked. In Europe, you can be seen as white but still treated as inferior, if you are of a bad white ethnic group. This might not be of much importance for blacks who are discriminated for being black, but a lot of European sentiment is about belonging to a certain ethnic group or not. A lot of European nations have enemies who are whites, but they don’t like them just because they’re white and they don’t treat them as equals.
This makes the hate often being directed at someone’s ethnicity (and religion, if applicable) and not their race, even if it’s not white. For example, Turks. I don’t think they are hated for not being white. They are hated for being Turks. Not sure how to explain it. In the US, they might be discriminated against for not being white (even though many Turks can pass for white), but in Europe, they are discriminated against for being Turks.
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As for the workers in Germany (called Gastarbeiter), well, yes, they are often understood to be of low education, doing jobs that native Germans didn’t want to touch. The fact that they were doing the jobs Germans didn’t want to do didn’t save them from the whole: “they are taking our jobs, #Y!@#(*!@#!!!!” that all immigrants face.
There were many Gastarbeiter from Turkey, but also from Eastern Europe. Yugoslavia had plenty of them. And yes, many returned to their home countries with lots of money, so they built huge houses and bought fancy cars. (At least this is how it was in Yugoslavia). One particular type of Mercedes car was jokingly named “Gastarbeiter Mercedes” because it was popular with these people. Now, the most interesting thing was that these people, at least Yugoslavians, didn’t live all that great. They patiently saved the money to build the house or have that fancy car so their neighbors back home would think they are wealthy. This is a common phenomenon that anthropologists and sociologists research(ed) extensively.
And then, there was – and there still is – another type of workers in Germany (and West in general). The most educated people: people who go to Germany to study for a PhD or post-doctoral studies. The best of the best, the most educated. Germany offers many scholarships for these people and it still tries to attract these people, even to make them stay after they finish their studies. My father worked in Germany for a year (he was a veterinarian), and several of my friends are currently doing their PhD studies there. Many people are attracted by their scholarships because the job prospects in their home countries are crap (due to nepotism and corruption, which are two things that make Eastern Europe – and, as far as I know, Turkey). So if you don’t have connections your Master’s or PhD degree can’t give you ANY job, unless it’s a minimum wage one or something like that. I’m not kidding here. So obviously these people will take the scholarships and go, and Germany (and other countries) will want to keep them after they graduate because they need experts and if they invested into someone’s education, they will want this person to contribute to their economy and not to go back. Well, some development scholarships are aimed at people who want to go back, but many of these highly educated people decide to stay in Germany (or another country) and not to go back.
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“”internalised racism as evidenced with Dee which is perpetuated on black/brown brothers and sisters to discipline their behaviour “don’t be talking bout this racism shit”. My 2c.”
So she has a differing opinion on the subject, why do you personally feel the need to distance yourself and label her as “living with internalised racism”?
@Dee, I read your response and fully agree with it, this especially hit home with me.
“I don’t need to look to others to form my identity. It comes from me. As I’ve lived in various places, my personal culture is.. like a patchwork quilt. And I love that. I’d hate to be restricted to something just to uphold tradition, when it didn’t really make me happy. that’s just bullsh**.”
Me being half-white I’ve always been looked at in society as needing to adhert to what would be considered my normal culture “white” but at the same time I harbour resentment at the thought of being some sort of prisoner to this preconcieved notion of what THEY assumed I should be.
@Tyrone
“if whites loved being white so much, why would they obsess over black people as much as they do? From my perspective as a blackman, white folk are the ones with racial hangups, not us.”
Sounds like the usual jibberish from you, to you black/blackness is superiority and the white man be jealous of us! I personally remember you posting about how any baby not born to two “dark” blacks were not constituted as “true black” and was therefor in your eyes “bad” yet not one commenter batted an eye against that. Shameful even a racist halfie as myself felt sad.
@Abagond
Insightful topic, though I find myself disagreeing with her heavily in some remarks. Though that could just be my racial bias presenting itself.
“you talk about yourself through the language of white people, not through your own language.”
This seems to bring me the most confusion, as I stated before I don’t see the reason why people of any colour or ethnic feel the need to almost chain themselves to their peoples perceived notion of culture. I know some people do as a way of dealng with their own self-esteem but should it really hold much merit?
She should talk more about it.
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Way to spread propaganda without citing actual evidence. As a general rule, if you want skeptics to agree with you, you should cite evidence rather than merely listing people who support your position.
That faulty style of argument is one of the many reasons quite a few people (including myself) don’t believe in anthropomorphic climate change.
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“Kilomba says that race is political, not biological”
A paper, widely cited by HBDers, such as myself, is Tang et al. 2004. They found 326 genetic markers that predict race with 100% accuracy.
Click to access GeneticStructureSelfIdentifiedRaceEthnicityAndConfoundingInCase-ControlAssociationStudies.pdf
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@secualr: Wrong thread for that, but science, thank god, has proven that biologically there is just a one human race on this planet. Period. One human spieces. I know it must be bugging a guy a like you, but that is a scientific fact. Back to the subject: racism in Europe.
I think racism in Europe is not so institutionalized and part of official fabric as it is in USA. In Europe the nationality seems to be more important factor, even in negative issues. Black american athletes in european pro series are usually talked and known as AMERICAN athletes, not blacks. Same goes with singers, performers, celebrities, actresses and actors etc. They are all Americans, not blacks first.
Black brittish athletes are always brittish outside their country. It is, it seems, that nationality and citizenship first.
Also, religion seems to be more important dividing factor for many. Christian arabs get by much easily than muslims. In east Europe orthodox christians are looked pretty much as the same where as protestants and(or roman catholics are seen as the others. And in Northern Ireland the whole conflict has been difined via religion, protestant vs. catholic.
Language is also bigger deal than the color of your skin. Black finns who speak fluently the language or have been born here and thus are grown into the culture have much more easier time than recent immigrants who do not master the language nor understand its nuances.
One finnish parlamentarian, who is black and a finn, told this story: he was once travelling in a trolley in Helsinki when some africans came in. The first thought in his mind was: I hope they do not sit next to me just because I am black! In his eyes these africans were first and foremost foreigners despite them all being black. He identified with finns because that what he is, not with the color of the skin. Not that he was proud of his reaction, actually he was embarrassed to notice how he thoughed at once in the same way as most: natives vs foreigners, we vs them, us vs others.
One thing we also must remember that in many many parts of Europe blacks are still a rare sight. In some countries they are a small minority. That is also one factor that shapes European racism.
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@Bliff, Randy and destructure
This seems to be basically what you are telling us:
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@Dee
Why the need to constantly guilt trip people, for things that happened in the past, out of their control (unless they themselves were racist)?
@Abagond
The main reason racism continues, at least in America, is just what she said: whites failing to face up to their own power and privilege, to their own history of brutality and terror.
Two different opinions. One (Dee) looking for union and the other (Abagond) looking for division. To stress ones history which is wrong is more divisive then dealing with current day racism. It’s not about racist behaviour against people who already passed away. It’s about power structures being innately racist, not just because of a history. But above all because of the current day situation. You can look at the social and political conditions which are shaped by history. But the history is only relevant because of it’s current day relevance.
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@Secular X Blood
“A paper, widely cited by HBDers, such as myself, is Tang et al. 2004. They found 326 genetic markers that predict race with 100% accuracy.”
If you compare two white families which delineate from two different ancestors, of course you can tell which one belongs to which ancestor. Taken it to a bigger scale, you have the so called “races”. Nothing but really big families, populations which mostly bred amongst each other, without going outside the “family” e.q. “race”
An analogy to the human genome stored on DNA is that of instructions stored in a book:
The book (genome) would contain 23 chapters (chromosomes);
each chapter contains 48 to 250 million letters (A,C,G,T) without spaces;
Hence, the book contains over 3.2 billion letters total;
So on that scale do 326 markers really matter?
Now another thing from your blog:
“Racism is based off of prejudice, a completely rational emotion. If prejudice didn’t exist, gazelles would not hold prejudices towards lions, and you can imagine what happens next. It’s a trait that has been selected into us. Perhaps we should make evolutionary biology compulsory, rather than arts classes.”
Rational emotions do not exist. A thought is rational an emotion is emotional. You can talk about the logic of emotions, some are logical others illogical. The thing is you never know, cause emotions aren’t rational. You can’t reason if an emotion is logical or illogical.
It’s true that emotions need to have an a rational basis, but the subsequent emotional response doesn’t need to have that same kind of rationality. If you get robbed by a black man once, your emotional response is to be afraid of a black man. Two blocks down, there is a shop which gets robbed by a white man every week. Emotions don’t take that rational info into account. This is an over exaggeration, but emotions don’t take reality into account, just perceived reality. They don’t try to understand one’s other reality and motives which drive them to do certain things. Thank god we have our brain to counteract the shallowness of emotions. Other wise we would be just like the gazelle reacting purely instinctively without any rationality or humanity.
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A much better question is: Really? The population was rather cleaned up in that research.
If Officer Freeman has used his firearm on the Masked Serial Rapist (always using condoms) saving Miss Johnson’s virginity, resulting in getting sufficient DNA of the suspect, would those clusters be good enough to determine the race of the MSR? I doubt it.
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Timely topic on Racism. Here is Australia we just had a debate on one of the top current affairs programs called Insight.
http://www.sbs.com.au/insight/episode/overview/459/I-m-Not-Racist-But…
They mentioned ‘soft racism’. Is there such a thing or they are just deceiving themselves? Well, the program was soft unlike this blog but its well worth checking out to get a better understanding of racism around the world.
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malkia:
I don’t quite get what that picture is implying as it pertains to this thread.
Perhaps you or Bulanik can clarify.
I think the difference between the top two images and the bottom one is that nobody is instructing people to feel personally guilty about their ongoing causation of the top two circumstances, and that they need to engage in a process of atonement and reparations for them.
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@malkia
Th 9-11 picture and caption convey that we should be vigilant and take action to make sure this does not happen again.
The Holocaust picture and caption also conveys that we should be vigilant and take action to make sure this does not happen again.
The Slavery picture COULD also hold the same caption, and I would also interpret that as to mean we should be vigilant and take action to make sure Slavery does not happen again.
The actual Slavery caption “Get Over It” means that blacks should stop demanding whites atone for this past action in the present. Therefore, it is simply being used to convey a DIFFERENT message than the others.
One could put the same “Get Over It” caption on the Holocaust picture to convey to Jews to stop whining about how bad the Holocaust was, which is a different message than “We will never allow this to happen again”.
In sum, each picture could have the same caption, and convey the same message. On the other hand, each picture could have a different caption, and convey a different message.
This graphic is a Setup, where someone is trying to scam the viewer into thinking that Slavery is ALWAYS being viewed differently than 9-11 and the Holocaust, but this is not the case – the message is caption-dependent.
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@Bliff
I agree with you on your post however that thread Malkia posted is what Whites have been telling Blacks to do for years. We have been told to never forget the Holocaust and never forget 9/11 but we have been told to let go of slavery.You don’t realize how much slavery destroyed Blacks, mentally, psychologically and physically. My ancestors were those people, yours weren’t.
I think Blacks should forgive Whites for slavery and bad things they have caused for Blacks. But never forget slavery though. Whites should own up to their power, privilege and brutal history and then maybe they can really start changing things and start the racist elements in the American culture and society. I just want Blacks and Whites to be united and get along. That is all
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@Bliff, Randy
I do not advocate for “white guilt” as the Broken Africa Stereotype post showed, it causes us more harm to than good.
I am not just talking about your comments in this post its all your comments in totally that seem to just say “well, get over it already!”. You cannot deny that for hundreds of years this world was built on white supremacy and superiority and that black folk were the last rung on the ladder. It is a system that has benefited white populations disproportionately compared to other peoples of the world. Now, I don’t want YOU to feel personally responsible for it, after all you found the world as it is, but to try and tell us that the system has not oppressed us and continues to do so….. well!
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@bulanik:
First the N word in finnish. In my mothers time in 1940-50’s the official and neutral term for black people was neekeri which could be transtlated as negro. In the geography books and university texts this was the term used at least up untill 1960’s. However since then the term has transmuted into the N word with its negative connotations and the more neutral term today is mustaihoinen, black skinned litterally, or musta, black. This change came trough the awereness of the struggle of the 60’s, Martin Luther King, “Black is beautiful” etc. Some are trying to use politically correct term finnish-african/african-finns/afrofinns but for the majority that term implies the origins of one, so american or brittish blacks are excluded from that as are the ones born in Finland, so black it is.
As for the skinheads, if abagond allows I go trough the history once again:
I know that when that fashion started back in the 60’s it had no racist ideology in it. Actually I did a post here once where a black jamaican musician talked about skinheads and rude boys as they were originally called, and who at that time were both whites and blacks and browns. And their music of choice of course was ska, played and performed by black artists and/or multiracial bands.
Make no mistake, these original skinheads in big cities of England were not nice boys but working class kids who were into drinking and fighting and football hooliganism. Some times known as suedeheads they were a counterculture for the more posh and modist upper class teenage fashion. Heavy boots came from the reality that one could not afford too many shoes a year. Cropped head same thing, you took a trip to barber once a month (or shaved your head at home) instead getting the perm twice a week.
During the skinhead revival in late 70’s the National Front party started an active recruiting campaign among the skinheads and football hooligans with varying success. Majority of the bands at time were either black or black and white, whence the well known colours of the revival movement black and white (includin record label Two Tone Records). NF did not succeed so well as it had hoped but it created a minority inside skinhead minority. This group had its own name in 1978-82 (forgot its name) and they started to distrupt ska concerts and such events trough violence.
Sometime in early 1980’s american racist and neo nazi movements began their support programs for the european extremist right. They brought money and knowhow, commersialism and marketing ideas into the sphere. The whole nazi skinhead ideology was invented, basically watered down nazi or racist ideology, with signs, labels and own rock music (white power rock) and it was marketed to the kids whom the grown ups felt were most eager to accept this package.
Media played right in to the hands of the extremists by promoting their idea of nazi skinheads and racist skinheads and in very few years the term skinhead became to mean a racist and/or nazi, something it was not originally. Many skinheads grew their hair back on as the label became more and more the gospel among the public and even among the skinheads themselves. More the nazi skinhead idea became a truth in media, the more nazis became skinheads etc. Skinhead band called Red Skins, openly socialist left wing skinhead band, quit around these times.
The organisers had pretty good success in Germany, particulary in the east, and in some countries like Sweden. Some ripples were seen in Finland as well back in 1990’s although here the whole nazi skinhead group consisted few dozen kids across the country.
Today, at least what I have seen, there is a counter movement inside the skinhead crowd. You see more and more texts that separate the skinheads from NAZI skinheads. You see texts and bands, songs etc. which try to revive the original skinhead fashion and style and make a distictions between the skinheads and nazi skinheads. I have no idea if this has any effect at all.
Why it still lingers on after some 50 years. Well, that is a good question. I think it is the agressivity of the image and style that makes teenagers and bit older ones to embrace the fashion. Ok, the music can be good, such as the Specials, Selecter, Body Snatchers, early Madness etc. from the late 70’s or Desmond Dekker and those guys from earlier times. But time will tell will they ever get rid of the racist nazi label.
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@bulanik:
heres a clip in which you can actually see few black skinheads way back.when so it was not originally racist or nazist things, actually the whole thing started among jamaican immigrants and their white neighbours
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Leftists and blacks can repeat this ridiculous construct until they’re blue in the face, and the still won’t make it true. You have to fancy yourself an intellectual to even entertain such an absurd claim. Race is most definitely fundamentally a biological reality. A person’s race or mixture of races can be extremely accurately determined by genetic analysis. It’s done all the time now. Race is about ancestry.
Race also has political and cultural connotations and associations. Some aspects of popular racial definitions are largely social constructs, such as the one drop rule for determining who’s black in America and probably Canada, which generally isn’t applied to other racial mixtures such as NE Asians and white mixtures, which are called Eurasians usually or mixed. The one drop rule was first delineated by whites but is now mostly insisted on by blacks. Nevertheless even here the one drop refers to blood or ancestry, and there must be at least some black biological ancestry to be considered black.
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@ Doug1
How do you distinguish yourself from “Leftists and Blacks?” You have been repeating what most consider inane statements buttressed by ridiculous statements. For every 1 person that says intelligence is biologically determined, their are 100 that say it is socioculturally determined.
Which doesn’t mean they are right. It just means that the question is open and still not in your favor based on current research.
I know this undermines your whole stance on existence however that does not make you correct in that ridiculousness that you have purporting since the get-go.
Give it up because noone here is buying what you’re selling. You can’t put a price on worthlessness.
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Utter rubbish and pure Marxism.
Blacks are a whole lot more racist than whites, on average. Most American blacks these days look for things to try to feel superior to whites and to demonize and blame whites for, regardless of the evidence, as an emotional want.
Further blacks can and often do have more power to oppress whites in particular local or micro circumstances, and tend to feel much less compunction not to. Organized or impromptu twitter organized black gangs can and do gang up on random whites they run into. Black men can and do gang rape white girls in part as a racial hate/resentment/triumphant crime and in part because so many are so sexually attracted to white women the large majority of which aren’t interested in them.
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Race isn’t biological, but even if it were, it’s still a social construct, and this is what matters. For example, nobody denies sex is a biological fact. However, gender is a social construct that largely shape a person’s position in the world and the way others see this person and the way this person is treated. Not biological sex, but gender, a social construct.
Yes, you can trace someone’s genetic background pretty accurately. It doesn’t mean you can determine their race, because: a) there’s only one race of humans and b) what we call “race” is a social construct. If race was an objective fact, then it would be impossible for one person to be considered a member of different races, depending on who’s asking. I always take Adriana Lima as an example (since she’s a good one). She’s seen as white in my culture. Her marriage is not seen as interracial and her child is seen as white. This isn’t how the things are seen in her home country, and her race is seen as yet different in the US. These things wouldn’t be possible if race is something that can be measured objectively.
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personinmotion–
Most around here like to claim such things but don’t really think it. They also can only confront what I say with frankly very dim emotional and personal attacks.
First of all my comment here had nothing to say about intelligence or IQ. You brought that up.
Next, I don’t give much of a rip about what the ignorant and propagandized think. Though I think your ratio is way off anyway. That might be about right as to what people with elite jobs will say in public, knowing what often happens with after the fact censorship by punishment. Job loss, etc.
Third of course intelligence is partly socio-culturally determined. Nobody who knows anything in the area says differently. It’s also partly genetically/biologically determined. The best evidence is that it’s at least 50% genetically determined under American environmental/cultural conditions, and possibly as high as 80%. I’d guess 2/3 genetic.
The fact is that the political suppression of the evidence for the genetic determination of black vs. white IQ gap is unprecedented in it’s pervasiveness (though it’s not total – publication in specialist peer reviewed journals isn’t impossible though funding is very difficult to get for the studies these days) certainly in American science, and is only comparable internationally to the Catholic Church’s initial suppression of Galileo’s theorizing and observations about a heliocentric solar system, and the Soviet Union’s suppression of Darwinian biology, as in Lysenko etc.
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Lol Wow! Doug you are on pills. You are hilarious and I really mean that.
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Mira—
Wrong. And nobody should deny that race is a biological fact either, for similar reasons.
Gender is only somewhat a social construct. Mostly it’s a biological reality. There are all sorts of psychological differences between the sexes, that most feminists like to deny. Men are more aggressive than women on average, and to a large degree. They tend to think, or want to think anyway, more logically and less emotionally than women. By far most women get their greatest sexual thrill when a charmingly dominant man seduces her into being sexually submissive and yielding. Yeah there are exceptions, but far more women have been falsely lead by American and Anglosphere propaganda into thinking they must be exceptions to this than they discover to be the case if they have really great sex. Although the average IQ’s of men and women are almost the same (men probably have about 3 points higher average IQ), the distribution or standard deviation is notably narrower in women than in men. That leads to the fact that among whites, about twice as many men as women have IQ’s above 125. At the near genius level of 145, the gap is much larger. Don’t immediately recall how much, but a lot. I.e. Larry Summers was right.
Women tend at the median to be a little better than men at verbal IQ and a bit more less good at math and visiospatial IQ. However at high IQ levels men are better than women an verbal as well.
Women tend to be better than men at social intelligence. They can read subtleties of attraction or not, power dynamics, etc. faster and better than men can on average. This overlaps a good bit though.
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Mira–
Absurd and hilarious.
Race is all about ancestry. Which is biological.
The gall of the left is amazing.
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One reason why the one drop rule doesn’t make black vs white racial classification in America primarily a social construct is that that rule only applies to a very very small percentage of those who self identify as black.
The average white ancestry among blacks in the US is about 20%, but a bit less that 10% of blacks have 50% or more white ancestry, like Obama and Haley Berry. However the percentage of those that have “one drop” levels of black ancestry is much, much smaller. I’d guess less than 1%. The average white ancestry among those not in the 10% is about 17%.
As Steve Sailer has recently satrically suggested though, white should take advantage of this social construct meme about white vs. black race identity and just claim they’re black on college admissions applications, and so on.
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“Doug1,
Blacks are a whole lot more racist than whites, on average. Most American blacks these days look for things to try to feel superior to whites and to demonize and blame whites for, regardless of the evidence, as an emotional want.”
Doug1,
The author of the post is not American, so she was not talking about America.
Since this particular post is on about Europe and how ethnic African or mixed raced black residents purportedly feel about being black in Europe, can you tailor your posts to talk about a country in Europe and its black residents.
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@ Doug1,
A) Are you trying to say that you’ve never claimed that whites are genetically more intelligent than Blacks?
Unless I am mistaking you with another Doug1, I distinctly remember you referencing the crack scientists of the Bell Curve to buttress those claims.
B) Evolution happens over millions of years not hundreds/thousands etc. We, humans, descended from the same pre-humanoid species. Our genetics are identical. They haven’t had the time that they would need to evolve separately to account for neurological structures that would have to be different in form or functioning to account for increased or diminished intelligence in one group over another.
C) Who fits into your catch-all group “race?” There is more variation that you can credibly account for within a race for you to make meaningful statements about race a) or race b). Take Aboriginal “race” is comprised of thousands of First Nations groups with different cultures and traditions.
Are E. and W. Indians considered the same race? They share a similar skin color.
Please provide an extensive intinerary of what races exist and what are their distinctive features/qualities.
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Anyone else think that Doug1 and the other disciples of the Bell Curve hate the fact that president Obama is in power?
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Were you on vacation Doug 1?
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Dough,
Are you an anthropologist? If not, STFU, please, about the issues you know nothing about. If yes, explain to me, please, what were you doing during your first class when the teacher explained the difference between sex and gender?
Please, don’t try to lecture us on stuff you have no idea about. Oh, you’ve read a lot about it, I give you that. But reading for your amusement is not the same as actually being educated on the subject.
And it’s funny how you use the term “left” as an insult, though I guess Americans do consider it an insult. (Not to mention the dreaded “C” word… No, not the one about female genitalia).
But carry on.
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@personinmotion
Doug1 and the other disciples of the Bell Curve hate the fact that president Obama is in power? I am a “disciple” of the Bell Curve and I don’t like Obama because I am a conservative, not because I don’t like that Obama is black. That is a smear that the left and many blacks like to propagate, even though it is not true. We don’t like Obama’s policies. He is a typical black man in his policies – ultraleft. That’s what we don’t like – not his skin color.
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Mira–
Adriana Lima is hot. And yes as she says herself she has a drop or two of black blood in her. But not lots of drops. I consider her white myself. I consider all one drop “blacks” including in this country white as well, though realize they often culturally identify as black, though usually only partly. There’s a tendency of one drop blacks to be upper class (for their race and sometimes for the whole society) blacks.
I’ve endlessly said the one drop rule is a social construct. But also that that applies to a very small percentage of socially designated blacks in the US.
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@Doug1
Why in the world do you think that us Blacks are trying to blame Whitey for everything and demonize you guys when your own people have been humiliating and demonizing Blacks for hundreds of years? I just don’t get it.
Racist is a one way street. The oppressed, the Black man in this situation can’t oppress the oppressor, which is the White man in this situation. That is so true. Blacks don’t have enough power and representation to demonize and ridicule Whites the way you do us every single day.
And like Linda said, this is about Europe not America.
If you feel so bitter and hatred towards Black Americans, then go up to one and tell that Black person directly how you feel about Black Americans. Because I know how you feel about Blacks and other minorities and I know it isn’t nice either!
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Dough,
Adriana Lima isn’t American, so how Americans see her doesn’t matter much for her own racial identification. It does illustrate, however, different ways that people can be seen depending on who’s looking.
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“If you feel so bitter and hatred towards Black Americans, then go up to one and tell that Black person directly how you feel about Black Americans.”
********************
Out of the mouths of babes.
Ms. McKenzie – you are sooooooo right!!!!!
And you probably already know that Doug1 is a trollish poster who’s prone to saying some of the dumbest and most idiotic things ever said on this blog – next to that other troll named Randy. : /
Watch out! Be careful. They’re infested/infected .. make sure you don’t get any coodies from them.
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@bliff, doug1:
I know you guys are right wing nutters, not really conservatives since they are conservatives and you guys are extreme right wing racists, with which real conservatives do not like to be associated. They are, rightly so, embarassed of guys like you.
And I also know that you throw around the Left label, as it is for you some sort of insult, which it is not anywhere else around the world, other than in your nightly weekend barbeques around that burning cross.
This is very funny since you boys do not know next to nothing about history, biology, genetics, nor politics. You can, how ever, repeat the same racist fairy tales almost accurately and do so again and again despite the subject at hand. You are determined. I’ll give you that.
Like here, the discussion is supposed to be about european racism, not about your fantasies, but some how you guys turn into those, like a small child who sees his own poop for the first time. A bit pathetic, little sad, but always extremely funny and hilarious.
The “race is biological” poop was shot down again on a another thread but since you brought it up again I may quote: out of few billion markers some +300 are different between you and a black humanbeign. That difference is so minuscule that you may have more different markers betwee you and your momma, depending on her genetical structure and weather or not she has any genetical diseases or anomalities.
@bliff:
“He is a typical black man in his policies – ultraleft. That’s what we don’t like – not his skin color.”
C’mon, be a Man. You know, or should know very well that Obamas policies are nothing if not conservative. Actually, and this may come as a huge surprise for you, his staff in treasury is almost the same as it was with Bush regime and you think Bush was a commie?? Be a real man and say it out loud and proud: you hate to see a n****r in WHITE House.
@all the others:
As for the subject in hand, the racism in Europe, here we see one example how the american racism works and as it is. These guys show it to us. They actually believe in it, they believe it is scientific etc. In Europe very few are willing or able to say that out loud because even the racists know that is funny.
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@bulanik:
“What do you think of the notion that in order for Europe to ‘survive’ it has to ‘fiercely’ protect its culture?”
I find that funny. What is european culture? Most of these guys are saying how islam is coming and how our christian europea culture is at risk yadayadayada etc.
But christianity is from middle East. Actually it was just a jewish sect in the begining. It was forced on the most of Europe trough very violent conflicts, crusades and warfare on massive scale. Thousands died because of it. Even in the 1600’s thousands of women were killed in the name of christianity just because they worked as midwives or healers etc. Last of the so called Lapland witches was burned in Sweden in 1672. In the name of christianity.
For me islam is just another religion, nothing more and nothing less. And what is this paneuropean identity? Samekind of clothes? It has nothing to do with our culture, it has all to do with the clothing industry. Besides, when I was watching the struggles of the so called Arab Spring, most of those guys on the streets wore the same brands and clothes as we do.
Music? Most of the popular music is from America! Most movies are from there. Languages? I don’t think that arabic will ever be lingua franca in Europe. English or french has not wiped out lesser languages yet, neither has german. They still use the cyrillic alphabets in the east and greeks have their own, despite the fact that they are surrounded by latin alphabet.
I am not that conserned. Few decades, few generations, couple of centuries and the european arabs and blacks in Europe are just europeans. They will argue with arabs from the southern shore of the Mediterannean that their bread is the real arabic bread since their ancestors came so long ago to Europe and preserved the old ways, where as those who stayed behind made all kinds of changes into it. That is my prediction.
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Sam—
I didn’t bring up racial differences in IQ and they’re being partly but significantly due to genetic differences between blacks and whites, personinmotion did rather incongruously in rebutting my saying that of course race is biological and not just political. I said that after quoting Abagond paraphrasing the (partly) black psychiatrist whose views he wrote this post about. Specifically I quoted this:
As for this:
As I proved in the thread in which Abagond quoted Merriam-Webster’s definition of racist, I’m not one. I am one by the hyper extended definition communists and others on the left like to use these days, which is anyone who believes from the evidence that there are racial differences some of which are not advantageous to blacks. By that definition the truth can be and is racist.
Nor am I an extreme right winger much less a “nutter”. I think for example that in addition to spending cuts America does probably need to raise its tax revenues, preferably from reducing exemptions and deductions and loopholes and other complications and so on.
I know vastly more history, biology and genetics than you do or just about any of the regular commenters here.
Billions? You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. It’s you who knows next to nothing about human genetics. Geneticists estimate that humans have at most 25,000 genes. Most of those genes have two or sometimes a few more variations called alleles, ignoramous. We share most of our genes with mice, not to mention chimpanzees. 97% or something is often estimated. A few genes can make a huge difference.
See this published in news-medical.net, reviewing the lead article in the June 2005 issue of Psychology, Public Policy and Law, a peer reviewed journal of the American Psychological Association.
Race differences in average IQ are largely genetic
http://www.news-medical.net/news/2005/04/26/9530.aspx
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Abagond:
I’m tired of folk talking ish about the US, when their countries of origin are no better. For a black person to say that europe is less racist than america makes no sense to me. How can they say that ish with a straight face? Come on black people, Spain and Portugal started the slave trade in the early 1500s, and they have the nerve to say that they’re not as racist as other whites, just because they support intermarriage more so than other whites, Really? Blacks in the US need a serious reality check, as it relates to what goes on outside this country.
Tyrone
MindScape
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Thanks Tyrone. I thought that Europe was less racist than America butI was wrong and this blog proved me wrong as well. I was thinking of moving to Europe because people have told me that it is less racist that America but I don’t know if I believe that anymore.
@Matari
I am only 16 and yes, I can see how racist people are. I am glad you appaulded my comment because I was trying to be smart and sassy with that racist troll. I know he says the dumbest crap on this blog along with other racist White trolls that dislike Blacks and think that Blacks are inferior to Whites. These are what I call closet racist.
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Adeen Danica Mckenzie,
I don’t think Europe in general or European countries in particular, are less racist. But I do think the racism expresses itself in different ways so it makes it seem like it’s better in Europe. Like this stuff with interracial relationships. They seem to be like a less of a big deal in Europe than in the US, but I am not sure if this means a thing.
The main difference, I think, is that Europe is more about the ethnicity than the race. So when you are black, in the US you are hated for not being white, while in Europe you are hated for not being English, French, etc. This is particularly bad if you ARE English or French, but your grandparents or grand grand parents came from India, South Africa, Morocco… But being white in Europe is not enough the way it is in the US. You can still be seen as a foreigner the way you (or your kids) can’t be in the US (if they master the accent and stuff).
Also, another difference is that Europe has a different take on mixed individuals. To Europeans, someone with one white parent (Obama, for example) isn’t black. Not to mention some people who are seen as black in the US despite having only one grandparent who is black. Still, I don’t think the status of mixed individuals in Europe is a blast.
However, I think the point of the US racism vs European racism shouldn’t be about the quantity (who is more racist) but about the quality. The difference in the ways racism manifests itself.
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@Mira
Oh, thank you for explaining this to me. I didn’t know that. but Europe justifies theirs differently. Racism is still racism. You are right.
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@Adeen
I thought that Europe was less racist than America butI was wrong and this blog proved me wrong as well. I was thinking of moving to Europe because people have told me that it is less racist that America but I don’t know if I believe that anymore.
Mira is spot on in what she says in that there are racial issues but there are differences in the way they manifest themselves – same difference analogy applies here. Because of that, many in the U.S may think that people in Europe cant relate to what happens overseas but, as you can see from the comments from others of us in Europe, including myself, we certainly can.
I guess its important to remember that Europeans were the forerunners in terms of colonisation and, that for example in the U.K, the British Empire was built on exports such as slavery etc and some people can’t cope with the fact that the country they are so proud of, has this ugly legacy.
I would say though that where it appears to be different, is the widespread and diverse IR couplings that occur where, individuals may experience stigma, particularly in certain parts of the country, but in the main, it is not looked down upon generally, at least not openly.
I would encourage you to experience this for yourself though Adeen, variety is the spice of life IMO and you can only grow and learn through such experiences 🙂
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Tyrone, maybe I’m a bit patriotic, but I am afraid that the truth is that few places are as racist against black people as the USA at its worst. Just listen to the black travellers, OK?
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Tyrone–
No, actually the Arabs did hundreds of years earlier. When the Portuguese started exploring further and further down the west coast of ssAfrica, there was already an established slave trade network crossing the Sahara with camel caravans and slaves in toe. Well there was also an internal ssAfrican slave trade, tending to run from points further south to those further north, with dominant black tribes waging war on less dominant ones as a source of captives turned into slaves. The first Portuguese participation in slave trading was simply offering cheaper and faster transportation moving already captured African slaves up the coast. Then after awhile they brought some black slaves back to Portugal as house servants and curiosities for the royal house and nobility.
The Spanish were the first to transport black slaves purchased from dominant tribes in Africa, to their colony in Hispaneola, today’s Dominican Republic and Haiti before the later went French, first due to French pirates. After the Portuguese discovered Brazil by being blown off course by a storm on the way south toward West Africa, and the Amerindians proved both difficult to keep enslaved since they melted back into their native populations and also died in mass numbers from diseases they had no immunity to, the Portuguese began using black slave labor for sugar cane and other crops in N.Eastern Brazil, which is still easily the blackest part of Brazil.
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teddy–
Whites have become among the least racist towards blacks, among people that get to know more than a handful drawn from the elite. Chinese, S.Koreans and Japanese are all a lot more racist towards blacks than whites are. So are SE Asians.
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“Tyrone
Come on black people, Spain and Portugal started the slave trade in the early 1500s, and they have the nerve to say that they’re not as racist as other whites, just because they support intermarriage more so than other whites”
Linda says,
Spain, to me, is one of THE most racist when it comes to skin colour. When I lived in Germany, I developed a dislike for them due to my fellow classmates from Spain.
They seemed so intent on putting down anything that was perceived as “black” or African, yet when the Germans would put them down or call them “dark”, they would get upset and would want me to commiserate with them on how the Germans sucked…
When the new Nazi party would rally on mainstreet, the Spaniards stayed indoors that day, just like every other foreigner.
but overall, there is no comparison between racism in US and Europe…USA wins this award hands down…the quality and feel is different…your nationality and ethnicity counts more in Europe.
As a black American, you Tyrone, would be seen as an American first and treated accordingly…you would be seen as a visitor and depending on the country, you would be treated very well because people would assume you have money (like maybe in Hungary)
or because you are American, you would be treated badly, especially if you don’t speak the language (like in France–outside of Paris)
The white American servicemen I would talk to seemed very confused by this, it was hard for them to learn that their white skin did not protect them from prejudice and hatred from other “white” people.
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“Bulanik
Enslavement at that time was not an uncommon event for anyone who traveled in the Mediterranean, or who lived along the shores in places like Italy, France, Spain and Portugal, and even as far north as England and Iceland”
Bulanik,
Very interesting information. Do you think this is the reason the southern Europeans (Spain, Italy) seem to have this ingrained colourism in their society and pathological dislike for Africans or dark skin.
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@Bulanik
It doesn’t sit well with white supremacists either, who believe they are from a race with too high an IQ to have a slave ancestor.
Yes they do. The word slavery is bandied around a lot on this blog…
Another example-
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/parade/abj76/PG/pieces/ocasey/a_history_of_the_irish_future.shtml
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Bulanik–
Yes, most or maybe all of what you said about the Arabs capturing or receiving white slaves is true. Not sure all your numbers are right but not sure they’re wrong either.
The North African Barbary pirates did raid up the Atlantic for white slaves from coastal villages, as far north as southern England and Ireland when Europe was weak in the middle ages. They especially liked white girls form harem sex slavery. However most white slaves taken but more often sold to Muslims especially the Ottoman Turks were slavs from Eastern Europe including Russia. The word slav is in fact derived from slave. Venice sold slaves captured from the Balkans to Arabia early on and then to the Ottoman Turks. The Verangans (who formed the Swedish ancestry boyar overlords and merchant class in early Rus) sold Russian slavs as slaves to the Byzantines (Eastern Roman Empire) and then the Ottomans.
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Linda,
They seemed so intent on putting down anything that was perceived as “black” or African, yet when the Germans would put them down or call them “dark”, they would get upset and would want me to commiserate with them on how the Germans sucked…
This, X 100! It happens in my part of the world (on the Balkans). We see ourselves as white and fully European, and we hate when westerners see us as inferior or discriminate against us, which, let’s face it, happens a lot. This is something people of Balkan descent are rightfully upset about. Those who hate us in western Europe do recognize us as whites, but it doesn’t mean a thing: in Europe, you can be seen as recognized as white and still treated as inferior.
At the same time, many people here do the same sort of crap to others. While Balkans isn’t that high on racism (due to almost non-existent number of non-white people AND the fact our main enemies are other whites), except in case of Gypsies (who are not hated for being non-white; they are hated for being Gypsies), certain racist attitudes are present. People would go upset when somebody compare us, European countries to some “dirty nations in Middle East”. People in Serbia get upset for being called dark and are quick to post pictures of Serbs with blond hair and blue eyes. Croatians got offended when Angelina Jolie compared Croatia to Cambodia (“she thinks we’re third world?”), etc.
The saddest thing with these attitudes is that unlike most of western whites, we do know what is like to be discriminated and hated and treated as inferior… So why would we do the same thing to others?
This attitude is common not just in ethnicity/race issues but with discrimination in general. This is why you get racist white women (who complain about sexism but somehow fail to see their own privilege). Or racist gays. Or xenophobic African-Americans. Or anything.
Racism and any form of discrimination is inexcusable, but one would think those who know what is like to be on the receiving end would not be so quick to use their own privilege on others. Sadly, that doesn’t happen.
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As I’ve said elsewhere white men didn’t invent slavery, nor were they the only ones to practice it by a very long shot, but they did end it. Well except in some Muslim lands, such as Mauritania still (not de jure but de facto).
The Jews were slaves in Egypt way before the rise of Greece, as were other peoples. It was common in ancient Mesopotamia (Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and Palestine) and Egypt to turn prisoners of war and their families into slaves.
Slavery also existed in China from the earliest days of it’s civilization. As did it in SE Asia.
What tended to govern whether peoples were enslaved or not until Western Europe started emerging from the Dark Ages wasn’t moral or religious considerations, but practical ones. If a place already had tons of serfs, as China soon did, buying slaves except as sex slave concubines for the rich etc. didn’t tend to make a lot of economic sense, on a mass level.
The Catholic Church in Western Europe though did morally inveigh against slavery for fellow Christians. There were strong and predominant currents within the Church not allowing native Americans to be enslaved, since some were brought back to Europe and seem sufficiently civilized and “handsome” to first Los Reys Catholicos Isabella and Ferdinand and then the Church generally, to prohibit enslaving them but to rather convert them to Catholic Christianity. Columbus lost his position as governor of Hispaniola partly over that issue – though he hadn’t been so instructed in advance.
When black Africans were brought to Europe largely as curiosities (plenty of serfs at the time), the Church (or most of the powerful parts of it) had no such qualms about them. Whites had always from first contact with blacks below the chieftain level had always considered them to be greatly less intelligent, as in not a subtle difference, or merely illiteracy and a different religion. Early contact journals remark on this. This wasn’t the case when whites encountered Amerindians. Some difference yes, but often nuanced, and a matter of book learning or ignorance, or they’re better at some stuff, us at other stuff, and so on.
So yeah the Catholic Church never opposed enslaving blacks who were transported to the new world until far after English and New England Protestants made anti slavery a moral crusade, beginning around the time of the negotiation for the American Constitution.
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Bulanik–
Comment in moderation agreeing with your post re: Muslim enslavement of whites in the dark and Middle European ages.
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And yes it’s race slavery in Mauritania.
The masters are always Arabs/Berbers etc. (predominantly Caucasian) N. Africans. The slaves are always ssAfricans.
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I’ve known about the continuing de facto genuine no exaggeration de facto black slavery in Mauritania for decades, but here’s a recent highly intelligent blog post touching on the subject, from Razib Khan over at GNXP, the leading human genetics, human evolution and world human cultural evolution blog on the net.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/03/the-collapse-of-logic-human-culture/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+GeneExpressionBlog+%28Gene+Expression%29&utm_content=Google+Reader
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You have to admit that the Gypsies (Roma, whatever) are really parasitical. The claims that they’re victims are hogwash. Well I’m sure there’s some of that but I think it’s largely justified from what I’ve read, which is NOT on white nationalist type sites. The ones that live among other Gypsies make no effort to assimilate and most make no effort to become educated. They exist through welfare and gyping people and mystical mumbo jumbo fraud, and thievery, small and large, mostly small, since most aren’t so bright, to say the least. But canny.
Look I didn’t grow up knowing any Gypsies. They aren’t a factor in my life whatsoever. I have no motive to dislike them. But just looking at the truth about them dispassionately, they are a major problem to include within a tolerant welfare state.
Their modus operandi, allowing for individual exceptions (and quite a few of them do seem to have a good lot of musical talent, especially the inimital Django Reinhart, who was however broken away from their cultural coven), is parasitism. Preying upon a perhaps too tolerant host victim.
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So, now we have all seen examples of slavery and all that follows across the globe, it strikes me that it is impossible to attribute superior intelligence purely to the white race only. Clearly, IR interbreeding was happening long before there was a label for it and the majority of most so called ‘white’ people will have their fair share of some ‘other’ ethnic/racial lineage too….
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The etiology of the word “Slave” points to “Slav” which again would indicate non-African. I have never claimed that white europeans have not been enslaved, and in fact enslaved by some black people during certain periods of world history. Most of my experience has been derived from living as an adult in all four corners of the United States.
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“Mira
At the same time, many people here do the same sort of crap to others. While Balkans isn’t that high on racism (due to almost non-existent number of non-white people AND the fact our main enemies are other whites), except in case of Gypsies (who are not hated for being non-white; they are hated for being Gypsies),”
Mira, this hatred for Gypsies was something I could never understand.
I dated a guy from Slovakia and I he told me he used to be a skinhead when he was younger and they would fight with the Gypsies. He hated them with a passion and I asked him, “well, what are you doing being with me” and he said, “well, you’re different, you’re from the Caribbean, your people aren’t like the Gypsies–they’re lazy and their thieves (Gypsies)
I was totally blown away by this attitude.
Doug,
The Germans say the same thing about the Turkish (being criminals /thieves like the Gypsies) but of course, that is their prejudice / racism talking with no objectivity attached.
I lived, met, and spent a lot of time with Turks…hardworking, honest people.
Turkey is a beautiful country and as my Turkish girlfriend liked to say (about the Germans), “they just came out of the dark ages when my forefathers (Ottoman Empire) were ruling the Mediterranean”
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The racial construct that I have lived with all of my life, and the whiteskin priviledge that adversely effects the lives of black people and black communities, is not being looked at seriously, in my opinion. For example, many people will look at what they watch on T.V. and except that as something that happens in reality. For decades in the past, the only man and woman who you would see ‘kissing’ would be a white man and woman, and I’m of course talking about main stream, not cable broadcasts. I live in Seattle and this is a very caucasian city which I understand will effect what they broadcast, but having spent almost six years living in the South, where there are many more black people I find myself just as disgusted with the way that black people are depicted on the televion set. When are you going to see a black man and a white woman in a commercial together being intimate(kissing)?? Picture any intmate situation that a white male and a white female can take part in on network T.V., and ask yourself if you could easily have a black man take the white man’s place ….
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@dave myers:
I’ve seen black men kissing white women and white men kissing black women in brittish tv shows at least since 80’s and usually there is no issue on that in the story line itself. In many european movies there are interracial couples but usually the story is not about that, they just happen to be there. And, unlike in USA, these interracial tv/movie couples have not created much of anything among the public.
In one tv series about a female police chief working in London (Helen Mirren) was having a relationship with a black police officer. Their problems in the story line was about her inability to commit to the relationship and the fact that she was the superior at work. Not that much about their race, if I remember correctly.
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@Sam
In one tv series about a female police chief working in London (Helen Mirren) was having a relationship with a black police officer. Their problems in the story line was about her inability to commit to the relationship and the fact that she was the superior at work. Not that much about their race, if I remember correctly.
Aha! Prime Suspect, yes I remember that series.
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There’s also a rom-com movie with Thandie Newton about a man running London marathon to win his love’s heart. The fact she’s black (actually, biracial) had nothing to do with the story. Plus, her parents were shown (black mother, white father) and no attention was given to this.
Also: 28 Days Later, an excellent zombie (but not quite) story about, well, basically about human nature. There was an IR couple (Naomie Harris and Cillian Murphy) and it wasn’t seen as a big deal (ok, they are among the few survivors of the epidemic, but still).
Now, these examples are all black woman/white man, but I sure I’ve seen the ones with black men and white women (I remember one TV couple but I can’t remember which show it was… The guy was so hot but I never learned the actor’s name).
In European movies it’s really possible to have an IR couple without the story being about IR. This seems like a big difference to the US, where these things simply don’t happen.
Still, I wouldn’t take any of this as a proof that racism in Europe is less serious than in the US, though it does show some things manifest themselves differently.
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@Doug1
You have to admit that the Gypsies (Roma, whatever) are really parasitical. The claims that they’re victims are hogwash.
That sounds racist to me. I bet you feel the same about Black Americans that you do about the Gyspies only Black Americans live in America. If you don’t like Black people or Black culture, why do you even comment on this blog? In fact, this goes for all the White commenters on here that post some very ugly and racist crap on here. i just don’t get it.
In fact, anyone not White, it is a parasite to you! I just know it by your comments and everything. You wouldn’t say any of this crap to me or any other Black American’s face but you would post this online? You are nothing but a closet racist that uses the internet to reveal your racist feelings towards Blacks, minorities and Pres. Obama.
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@Mira,
Thank you for posting some more info. about Europe and it’s TV.
@Doug1
White ain’t right! In fact, no race is better than the other! There are good and bad i all races and please, don’t claim that I am racist against Whites because I am not. I just don’t like openly racist and closet racist Whites like you. There are some good White people and you aren’t one of them. I am not judging you because you are White but because you have racist feelings towards Blacks, ad minorities.
Plus you fear that minorities might take control of America and fear that the White man might not be so mighty anymore. But I just don’t care about the color of one’s skin unlike you but the content of their character.
You and your posts deeply upset me!
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@Doug1
You have to admit that the Gypsies (Roma, whatever) are really parasitical. The claims that they’re victims are hogwash. Well I’m sure there’s some of that but I think it’s largely justified from what I’ve read, which is NOT on white nationalist type sites.
Again with the generalisations. For a so called ‘learned’ man you sure are easily swayed arent you. You MUST look at both subjective and objective text when you comment on ‘people’ you know nothing about otherwise, how can you possibly comment in a logical and balanced way.
They ARE victimised at times often with no motivation or provocation from them however, there are also times when this is a justifiable response to some ‘thing’ that they have done. I lived next door to a family of gypsys and I saw both the good and bad side of things – the rest of the street gave them a wide berth but were quickly ringing the council or whatever putting in complaints if they were deemed to put a foot wrong despite their own shortcomings, of which there were numerous.
Again, this is another minority group that dont assimilate and are subject to hostility because of this. As individuals there are some dodgy among them – no doubt but, it is NOTHING whatsoever to do with who they are generally as a people.
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@Mira
There’s also a rom-com movie with Thandie Newton about a man running London marathon to win his love’s heart. The fact she’s black (actually, biracial) had nothing to do with the story. Plus, her parents were shown (black mother, white father) and no attention was given to this.
Simon Pegg – Run Fat boy Run?. The mother in the film is a lady called Floella Benjamin who used to present on a kids TV show called Playschool – theres a bit of tv trivia for you 🙂
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@Demerera
I agree with you but he doesn’t care about people whom he feels is inferior though:Blacks, Latin AMericans and Hispanics, Asians, Gyspies and other non Whites. White is superior to him. But at the end of the day, no race is superior to anyone.
The Gyspies have long been an oppressed people in Europe. Hitler tried to kill them in the Holocaust like he did the Jews and others that he feels were inferior.
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Oh, how could I miss this gem of a comment….
Well, first of all, Gypsies are Caucasian. The fact Eastern Europeans see them and inferior and hate them isn’t really about their skin color (though that does come often in the insults – even though we all learned in school that they are Caucasian = white). They are seen as inferior because they are Roma (Gypsies).
Their quality of life is generally horrible, which is partly due to the fact they don’t have their own country and nobody to protect them.
Here, many don’t have documents and don’t live in permanent homes. Many don’t go to school (schools are free). The sad state of most of their lives has a lot to do with the fact the country don’t know what to do how to help them, and frankly, nobody cares for this. Though my country is in such a mess it can’t help anybody so it’s not surprising.
People here are sure Roma people live in conditions they live in because “they simply are like this”. They are dirty, they don’t want to go to school, it’s their culture to be “like this”. It’s true there are some stuff I don’t understand about Roma culture (early marriages, for example – many marry at the age of 13 or so), but their internal problems (which exist just like there are internal problems of all groups) aren’t something that the countries they live in should take as an excuse to do nothing. It’s fact they are horribly discriminated in the ways you can’t imagine. The majority hates them and see them as low-life forms and there’s no excuse for this. Now, EE countries are pretty poor and in a huge mess themselves so they can’t help any of their citizens economically, but this is not an excuse for hate and the bad treatment of Roma people. I say we as majority have to do whatever we can to a) treat these people like true citizens of our countries, which they are, b) try to make their living conditions better (though this is almost impossible, due to the fact those in charge always take money for themselves, regardless of the issue) and, maybe most importantly, c) work on overcoming hate that exists towards Roma people.
While we as majority continue to blame the bad conditions they live in on the them, nothing will change. If we can’t stop teen marriages maybe we can stop those asshole policemen who beat up Roma women just because they were bored.
As somebody who lives in a country with a significant Roma minority, I have to say I’ve had only a limited contact with Roma people. There were no Roma students in my schools (except for the first grade). I don’t have Roma neighbors. I don’t know any Roma people except my mother’s friend. Most Roma people you see are beggars and garbage men. This is the only way they are seen. You can live your whole life without having any contact with a Roma person – even though many live in this country!
When I worked at a bank (on small loans for consumers), I’ve met many Roma clients. People with steady jobs and stuff. I have no idea where they are and why don’t wee see them.
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@Mira
Thank you for telling me about the Gyspies however this European guy told me that they came from India or some Asian or Middle Eastern country. I don’t know but thank you for the info.
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As for the Nazis…
Hitler’s main targets were Jews, Roma and Slavs. (And homosexuals, but let’s focus on ethnicities for now). This is another example of what Linda was talking about. We were all the victims of Nazis and our countries were crashed to pieces. Yet, people here hate Roma people just like Nazis did (ok, there’s no organized effort to kill them all, but the hate is there). There also seem to be more and more neo-Nazis in my country, which is completely confusing to me. How can you be a neo-Nazi if your own people were killed by this system???? There also seems to be a growing anti-Semitism that wasn’t widespread in my country (in fact, Serbia was listed by Israeli government as one of the nations that was never anti-Semitic). They might wast to rethink this.
Sorry for the rant. I know it was off topic. I guess I want to add that Nazis killed whites as well, not just Jewish whites. Slavs were among their main targets and were also seen as lower race. Which may seem confusing for us today because Slavs see themselves as white and, as far as I know, are seen as such.
This is another example of the fact races are defined arbitrary and based on current political/ideological climate and not biological factors.
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@Adeen
….this European guy told me that they came from India or some Asian or Middle Eastern country.
There is some truth in this Adeen yes, the Romany gypsies do originate from India and beyond. I grew up on an estate where a family of gypsies lived and they had this heritage and embraced it.
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Adeen,
Gypsies don’t have their own country. It is believed they are from India originally, though in the past they were believed to come from Egypt (hence: (e)Gypsies). But they don’t have their own country. So wherever they live, they are a minority. Not a good position to be in.
They live all around the world, but mostly in Central and Eastern Europe. They are generally not particularly assimilated, or at least they are seen as not being assimilated. Most Roma speak the language of the country they live in and they adopt religion. For example, most Roma in Serbia are Orthodox Christians and some are Muslims. The fact they share a religion with us don’t help them much to be seen as “allies” (and we are big on considering other Orthodox Christians, such as Russians and Greeks as allies).
There’s also a lot of passing. My husband’s grand grandmother was probably Roma, but he’s not sure because she was passing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people
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@bulanik:
excellent work! I knew about the Namibian thing, that was horrible. But one has to remember, that was just a bit harsh at that time, but not enough to get any protest from any other colonial power. The britts, french, portugese, they all did their own massarces in those times.
Good job on the german racism. I think the Holocaust has been seen as “enough” and racism per se has been neatly forgotten or ignored behind the Holocaust issue, like: Hey, we took responsibility on that, give us a break!
There is a small but highy visible gyspy minority in Finland and finnish gypsy women are known around the Europe among other gypsies for their magnificent dresses. There has been and still is racism and suspicion towards them even though one of the most highest payed and high profile lawyer is a gypsy etc.
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Adeen–
Nope, that’s your irrational prejudice, i.e. your racism, talking.
East Asians aren’t as a group parasitical. Not at all. Nor are S. Asians.
Gypsies are rather uniquely parasitical. As a group strategy within Europe.
Many blacks in their lower half or so have become parasitical it’s true but that was rather more the fault of leftist whites making that available to them, rather than they’re worming into that niche on their own initiative as gypsies did.
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Mira–
It was believed they came from Egypt because that is where they commonly said they came from to Europeans. Some of them did, as a way station, but far fewer than said they did.
They were probably originally a tribal group in India those that have studied their history tend to think, not a part of the Hindu caste system.
They test very, very low in IQ. By far most don’t graduate high school. In fact most don’t even make it into high school in eastern Europe. Their parents want them out working before then, typically.
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They test very, very low in IQ. By far most don’t graduate high school. In fact most don’t even make it into high school in eastern Europe. Their parents want them out working before then, typically.
Of course they wont test very high in IQ if they dont attend school *rolls eyes* IQ test by their very nature are academic and are used periodically to test students who attend school and study lessons as part of a curriculum.
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@ Bulanik.
This is again excellent research work on European racism. I hope you don’t mind I’ve used your comments on Black people in Germany and Namibia in FB here:
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@bulanik .. I’m sorry but I don’t think people in Israel need “Reparations” anymore. It probably has the biggest concentration of rich white people on the planet. Enough is Enough don’t take it if you don’t need it.
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@dave & Bulanik… From my hoarded links – Germany doubles payment to country’s Jews – http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-501714_162-57333787/germany-doubles-payment-to-countrys-jews/
This was November 2011
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@bulanik: Yes, there is one party the True Finns which has openly racist members, like Jussi Halla-aho who is very dangerous and also active writer on pan european racist web sites and blogs such as Gate of Wienna etc.
Hakkarainen of the video clip belongs to the same party. Recently this self claimed born again christian was embarrassed when it was revealed that he decided to visit the club house of Bandidos MC where he proceded to offer some money (not for sex he claims) for some young women. He was drunk at that time once again.
Their party True Finns is not openly racist party, it has some bland nationalistic claims, but it is unshamefully populist. The main reason it got such a big number of votes last time was a protest against the governing parties. Finnish political system is very vurnable for these situations since there can be any kind of coalition governments and thus, voters have no other choice.
At present time these are the parties in the government now: National Coalition, conservatives. Christian Democrats, conservative antiabortion antifeminist right wing party. Swedish Folk Party, party set up to advance the cause of the swedish speaking minority, right wing liberals. The Greens, enviromental party which has brought more nuclear power into Finland. Social Democrats, now a days conservative leftist liberal party. The Left Union, leftist party, former socialists and communists. Outside the government: Center party, conservative party at right, leaning heavily to the countryside folks. True Finns, populist and xenophobic party.
The swedes looked down on finns untill recently. Even though finnish has always been the biggest minority language it had no official status in Sweden and still does not nationally. Swedish race biologusts decided in 1800’s that finns were actually mongols and not of the pure nordic stock. Saami people belonged to the same cathegory according to them.
Gypsies arrived to Finland in 1500’s century when Finland was part of the Swedish realm. From time to time the crown offered fees for killed gypsies. I think that set the tone which keeps up today.
I think most finns are pretty lost when it comes to the racism. Most finns are not racist in a doug-sense of way. They are suspicious of foreigners. The skin color does not matter most. If you fit in and take the local habits your own, welcome. But if you despise finnish customs and so on, you are in trouble. One pitch black guy from Africa went to deep in to the eastern Finland which is know for its xenophibic atmosphere, fell in love with sauna and became very popular local state vetenerian.
In Kotka former american basketball player Larry Pounds is considered as one of the most popular local guys and is know by his finnish name Lauri. However Kotka is also known as being a tough harbour town for foreigners and you can get in serious trouble just for speaking swedish. Go figure!
Many finns are almost skitsophrenic in a sense that they do not think themselves as racist, they may have many friends whose origins are in Africa etc. BUT they can still be very suspicious of foreigners. I know for a fact that some other Africans and Kosovo albanians hate the somalis also, so… Go figure…
As for the east Europe, there is a theory that because they had no open discussion about racism nor much interaction with foreigners, that has been feeding the present racism. Unlike in the west, the holocaust has never been dealt in Ukraine, Romania or Poland or Hungary, where local non jewish population participated in the holocaust against the jews and the gypsies. Mira knows better but I assume that in Yugoslavia the events in 1940’s have been also politically handeled.
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We’ve had our share of issues with the war and stuff, but it mainly went in other direction: partisans (communists) vs non-communists. We went on to become a socialist country (until it all went to shit in the 90s), but the debate is still on.
Now, anything I say applies mostly to Balkans (and, specifically) former Yugoslavia. This ISN’T the same as other Eastern European countries, mainly because we were never under Russians. We were commies, yes, but we were non-aligned. Which was a big deal, the whole non-aligned movement. As you maybe know, most countries of the non-aligned movement are African and Asian. Most of the foreigners we’ve met during the Yugoslavia time (45-90s) were Africans and people from India, Middle East. These people were presented as friends and allies. Not sure how that plays in the overall sentiment, but I can assure you that it’s still better for you to be black in Serbia than to be a Roma.
Also, due to the heavy crap we’ve had in the past 20 years or so in the Balkans, we don’t really see race as the important factor on deciding who are our enemies and who are our friends. Our enemies are other whites for the Balkans, and – unlike EE countries such as Russia, Ukraine, etc. – we don’t have time or energy to focus on race. We’re too involved into hating other Balkan ethnicities and this hate and devotion to local Balkan shit takes all of our energy (when I say “we”, I mean all the Balkans, not just Serbia). We are taught to divide people base don ethnicity and religion, not race. Not because we’re “speshul” or open-minded, but because there are no non-whites here, and because our frame of mind is so focused on ethnicity. For example, there was a pull at a popular Serbian forum: “Are you racist?” Many people who answered yes said it was because they hate Croats (or another Balkan ethnicity). So they treat other Balkan ethnicities as different races. People all over the Balkans are so invested in this and focused on ethnicity that nobody really thinks about race.
PS- I don’t know what you mean about holocaust and Yugoslavia. There was some serious shit during WWII in Croatia. They were on the Nazi side and had concentration camps for Jews and Serbs. One of these camps was located 10 min from the place where I live (that area belonged to Croatia). They are making some efforts to deal with this, but not much has been done. It goes mainly back and forth who killed more people and when (among other Balkan ethnicities) and it’s rather sickening.
But all in all, former Yugoslavia can’t be seen as a part of EE in this matters, because of different histories of communism and recent ethnic war.
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As or Eurovision…
In Serbia, for example, a black singer wouldn’t have much problem going to Eurovision; most people would see that as interesting. But God forbid a Roma singer represents Serbia… Which is exactly what happened in 2007 when Marija Šerifović represented Serbia in Helsinki. People were enraged by the idea of a Roma Muslim girl representing Seribia. (Strangely?) enough, even more complaint came from the fact she’s (perceived as) lesbian, so people were all: “no way she should go, the world would think Serbian girls are ugly and mannish!” The pressure to show the world how pretty and feminine Serbian girls are led to picking hot back-up singers.
So Marija left to Helsinki – and won Eurovision with the song “Molitva”.
… And from that moment, she instantly became a national treasure.
She was even voted as one of the most influential Serbs and she’s loved by everybody, is seen as “one of us”, and like a true national treasure (similar to how Novak Đoković is seen these days).
This event illustrates pretty well our local frustrations and other crap. (Including, but not limited to: ethnic hate, xenophobia, self-hate, trying to kiss ass to the West while hating the West, homophobia… Am I missing something?)
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I saw this video and thought it was a fair counter argument.
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Mhm.. I consider myself anti-racist, but I am not anti-white (in a way I’m against white people). I am against the whole idea behind race as a concept.
But I do think blacks can be racist against whites. The thing is, they can be racist on an individual level, which isn’t the same as the institutional racism. Do I think a random black person has a “right” to hate me for being white? No, I don’t. But I do think a random black person has a right to hate whiteness.
I do think whiteness as a concept is bad. Blackness, on the other hand, is created as an attempt to define yourself BY yourself and not by others (whites). So they aren’t the same thing. But they go hand in hand together. If (a big if) whiteness is erased one day, blackness will go as well.
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I hear you Mira, and I don’t agree with everything he said. But I thought it was interesting how he said that some darker peoples in Europe along time ago could “buy” whiteness through tributes and such. Yet the Irish were never seen as white in England mostly because of political reasoning although through today’s definition they definitely are white. Who is someone else to tell you how you see yourself?
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Who is someone else to tell you how you see yourself?
That’s kind of a whole point of the racism (or any other form of oppression). The power is not just about being military or economically stronger – it’s also having the power to LABEL and DEFINE things (including people) the way you want.
The whole point of whiteness is this. Having power to not just define yourself the way you like, but also to define others the way you like and not how they see themselves. That’s why embracing blackness is about defining who YOU are BY YOURSELF, not the others.
The same can be said for any other form of power imbalance and is not restricted to race. I, as a person from the Balkans, know how difficult (impossible?) is to escape/redefine the way West see and define us. It doesn’t mean this is who we really are, but this is how the whole world see us, because West has the power to label us.
As for the Irish and the English, this is a story older than the racism. I don’t think the problem of the Irish was that they weren’t seen as white (again, race is not the most important thing in Europe; ethnicity is). They were seen as Irish, which equals = low life, garbage. Skin color has nothing to do with it. They still hate each other’s guts, and the northern part of Ireland is still part of UK, which is a problematic issue, to say the least.
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@mira: Yes, I know Yugoslavia was NOT under the USSR influence, which really bugged them at those times. And I also knew about the horrors of WW2 and after it.
It seems that the ethnicity you mentioned is the replacement of racism there. I mean, for an outsider there is no difference between croats and serbs but for them it is essential to be seen different. Alphabets, religiion and some customs are enough to separate the two and unfortunately some very opportunistic politicians used those sentiments in early 90’s to enflame the wars down there (picking ones neighbours as enemies when the federation dissolved and the people were uncertain of the future etc.).
In Finland there is an old saying “We are not russians, we will never be swedes, so lets be finns”. It seems that is mantra pictures pretty well the way we have been defining our selves for ages and how the politicians have been defining us contra our neighbours. Estonians are seen as brothers or cousins because the language and customs are very close and because they are also a small people living stubbornly among bigger nations. For some reason norwegians are seen usually in very positive light, perhaps because they never ruled us like the swedes and the russians. I’ve been in situations were the norwegians and finns have joined together to mock and tease the swedes and danes. That is weird.
The skin color per se is not that big issue here, or at least did not used to be (some racists are trying to change that), so we chose a black woman Lola Odusoga as Miss Finland in 1996 and she is still a very popular media personality. But today, when wealthy russians are buying houses and summer places in Finland, there is an apprehension about their “true motives”, this despite the fact the there has been russian minority in the country for more than hundred years and some of our most popular singers and actors have been of russian origin. They just were not seen as russians but finns, because they talked finnish, lived here, were born here etc.
In the past it was very important for finnish orthodox that they were not seen the same as russian orthodox. Finnish ortodox church does not answer for the patriach of Moscow but the patriarch of Konstantinopole (Istanbul today). I think this is still so.
I guess this is typical for Europe. Nationality, culture and citizenship are the first defining factors, not the color of the skin. If you are seen as a finn, it really does not matter what color you are. One of my friends who was asian origin (his father was indonesian and mother russian) was extremely patriotic when he was younger and did not like that much of refugees and foreigners as a kid. I know a guy whose father was an arab who was very xenophobic and anti immigrant in his youth, because he saw himself a finn and guys who looked like him but came from outside and spoke a foreign language as foreigners. Pretty weird too.
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You know the thing about ethnicity and race here bring up a point; several of the people who do hate other ethnicities actually do view them as other “races” not simply as people of the same race from different cultures etc…..
So I’m not sure you can really seperate xenophobia and racism as much as we think.
As pointed out; The Irish weren’t thought of as white until relatively recently.
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@V4:
Well, that is the whole point. Racism is social construct. We choose to be racist and we choose to see the Other as different. If we see white men just like us as another “race”, that kind of empties the whole thing. There is nothing biological or such in racism. It is just an idea.
If the irish were seen as another race, as they were, then the color of the skin does not actually matter at all. And if that does not matter, then it is just an idea. Nothing more. And, thus, it can be un done, it can be stopped. We can choose not to be racists. And we should.
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I’m not sure it really works though to say there are “no” differences either.
I mean you can look at people and see differences, especially the longer you are around them.
I don’t just mean, from yourself but even from among within them, themselves of whatever group it is you might be thinking of or interacting with at the time.
And the ethnicities; you can look at them and know their different, I maynot be able to identify them but most of the time looking at some random person you can know if they are from your genetic stock to some extent or not and I mean in the sense of italian, irish etc…..not just black and white.
In the way we use “race” to describe the various types of humans, it may be just as legitimate to describe other people from different nations as different “races”.
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I’m also not sure if minorities shouldn’t be racist.
At least slightly.
Take the Native Americans as an example, if they stopped being racist in breeding practices they would be wiped out as a group within a few generations.
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@Yet the Irish were never seen as white in England mostly because of political reasoning although through today’s definition they definitely are white.
But, I hate to say it dave, whilst superficially they may be identified as ‘white’ there is still a distinction amongst the English and the kinship STILL isnt natural. On most application forms I used to see there was still usually a separate section for the Irish.
Stereotypes about the Irish are still prevalent too and you can still be the subject of much mirth and amusement in certain parts of England if you have ‘tick O’irish accent’. Of course, the travellers get it the worst, even now for many with their deeply concealed racism they would much rather live next to a black family than some Irish travellers despite the similarity in the hue of their skin.
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@bulanik:
Heres an interesting clip from the days way back when. Here also you can spot some black skinheads from 1960’s. Working class kids identified with black neighbours more than upper class poshes.
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Mira:
“I do think whiteness as a concept is bad. Blackness, on the other hand, is created as an attempt to define yourself BY yourself and not by others (whites). So they aren’t the same thing. But they go hand in hand together. If (a big if) whiteness is erased one day, blackness will go as well.”
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Yes.
And the same can be said for so-called “black racism” (which is like saying blacks have the power to oppress whites, by de facto or de jure means).
So-called black racism is really just black “REACTIONS” to white racism. It is born out of white racism in much the same way “blackness” is born out whiteness. When racism was formed as a by-product of slavery, black Africans were not envisioning themselves, or culturally behaving in ways the words racist and racism were defined then, or how they are defined now.
Blacks can be prejudiced, hateful, bigoted, angry, biased and so forth as – REACTIONS – to white racism. It, in my opinion, is utterly disingenuous to describe blacks as something they never were… racist.
Blacks/Africans DID NOT:
Classify themselves as being superior
Establish racial hierarchies/classifications
Invent justifications/stereotypes for perpetrating evil
Mistreat or oppress anyone on the basis of color
Set up racist systems of privileges/benefits/advantages
Have institutional power to control or manage others on the basis of race
Etc …
Whiteness has subtly shifted/redefined language and the lexicon to hide (normalize) itself in plain view. One of the ways it has done this has been to alter, over time, the definitions of racism and racist. Today, these words have been rendered meaningless because unlike a generation ago. Now anyone can be deemed racist or practice racism.
During slavery, black codes, Jim Crow – absolutely no one ever described or spoke of Africans/blacks as being racists – or practicing racism. Yet towards the end of the civil rights movement some 40 – 50 years ago, a slow and steady shift began, bringing us to where we are today — in some strange alternate reality where blacks are still THE largest and lowest socioeconomic group, but are supposedly racist, oppressive and practice racism (via so-called reverse-racism and by “playing” the race card).
In current Bizzaro backward ways of viewing reality, sites like this one – a “public service” site in my opinion – which explains in many astonishingly detailed ways how racism and racists operate, is seen as a racist site. In today’s PC climate, merely discussing racism makes one a racist, especially if the person doing the discussing is black. Some incredulously insist that black people are keeping racism ALIVE just by calling it out. In other words, if blacks would just ignore the oppression they’re experiencing, it would just somehow magically disappear.
Clearly, many/most whites bought into this blacks are racists too, nonsense. Sadly, many blacks have also.
Racism was once a system only whites could subscribe to.
Now whiteness/white-supremacy says otherwise.
I’m not buying that lie.
No one has to.
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Today, these words have been rendered meaningless because unlike a generation ago. Now anyone can be deemed racist or practice racism.
SHOULD READ
Today, these words have been rendered meaningless because unlike a generation or two ago, anyone can NOW be deemed racist or practice racism.
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@Doug1
I am not racist against Whites at all. I just think that you seem racist to me. that is all
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@Matari
you are right
@Doug1
It is you who thinks that I am inferior because I am Black.And you think the other bloggers are inferior because they are black, Latina whatever. All minoriites are inferior to you. White is supreme, better to you
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@Abagond
I want to ask you something. It is about a blogger that I find so annoying and racist, it is not funny.
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So many things to respond to. This is gonna take some time.
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@Adeen Danica Mckenzie
Actually about Latino’s considering Doug1’s statements on them, cuban’s portuguese, adriana lima etc…..Doug1 probably is one and not considered “white” by the mainstream’s standard.
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@V4
Really? A Latino? You think he is probably a Latino. How and why?
Hispanics are not White because most of them are mixed with Spanish and Native American and Black. Only a few of them are White people.
Thanks for the info.
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@Adeen Danica Mckenzie
Well; if I’m right the “how” would probably have something to do with his parents.;)
And the why; is like I posted before, he see’s Latino/Mestizo’s as white and has to some extent stated that whenever the discussion of their “whiteness” or they are involved in a thread Doug1 is debating in will say so.
He see’s the racist cuban girl as white, the portuguese as white, Adriana Lima as white and so on.
Considering alot of his stances are kind of hardline pro-white, it would surprising of him to look at the mestizo’s as white as well if he were your more stereotypical pure-blood aryan youth stormfront type.
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Nice post. I recently read parts of a book on diversity in Russian cities and what was peculiar to me was that black Russians were always assumed to be foreign although they have lived in Russia all of their lives, speak Russian, and are culturally Russian. Their Russian parents always try to prove that they are true Russians to the society as a whole.
The other strange thing was that people from the Caucus (I think) were discriminated against the most and called the Russian term for black while Africans who lived in Russia were called a term for Negro. One African man mentioned it was better to have black skin then have dark hair like the people from the Caucus (I believe?). It was a 200X book.
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Excuse me, Im late to this discusion. I find it interesting that some people on here , especialy Sam and Mira, say there is a big differance in how Europeans are as far as racism is , than Americans.
But, i just saw a scathing report on how black Brazilian soccar players , who are playing in Europe, are victums of blatent racism.
They get called “monkey” all the time, and , people throw bananas on the feild. This happens a lot in Italy, also in Russia and Spain.
This is blatent racism , white insulting black , racism .
Also, i noticed that white players in Europe have a tendency to pat black players paternalistidly on the head. I f they did that in the USA, on a basketball court to a black player, they would get cold cocked
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@ sam, Bulanik, Mira, and my other European acquaintances here:
Thank you for the well-written, informative posts. I met people from many different countries when I lived in Alaska, and recall them stating very much the same things that you have.
Re: the ‘original skins’ – I knew a little bit about the origins of the skin’ead movement (the original, working-class ‘hooligans’) and the unfortunate morphing into what it represents today. There used to be a local group which was affiliated with ‘S.H.A.R.P.’ (SkinHeads Against Racial Prejudice); sadly, there are far too many ‘boneheads’ in my neck of the woods!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinheads_Against_Racial_Prejudice
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Sam, in the light of these really disgusting white people insulting black brazilian soccar players, calling them “monkey “, throwing bananas on the feilds…
In the light of actual white players , paternalisticly patting black players on the head ( i guarentee you they dont do that to other white players)
In the light of all the riots we saw coming out of various European countries based on the discrimination these mostly black and brown people are feeling…
in the light that the Nazi’s actualy made their racial atitudes known and acted on them in Europe and it just isnt that long ago…
it seems Europe has many of the same racist atitudes as the USA
This one drop rule thing never meant anything where I was raised, it just wasnt an issue so its strange to have my country judged on something that didnt even exist where i grew up.
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I never said the situation in Europe is better, just different, even if you see similar things/insults going on. The biggest difference is that in US, being white is enough to grant you privilege, while in Europe, it isn’t.
What difference does that make to blacks, you may ask? I have no idea. (This isn’t me being sarcastic; I honestly don’t know). But I guess the fact identity is built more on the differences between ethnicity, nationality and religion and less on race (unlike US) has to leave some differences. This doesn’t make Europe “better”, for all I know maybe it’s even worse in Europe for blacks (especially those who don’t live in the UK or other rich, stronger countries). Because at least blacks in the US are somewhat organized and can make their opinion heard, their stories such as movies seen, etc. Not on a large scale, but more than a black group somewhere in the middle of Europe.
PS- That patting on the head thing is something that’s players constantly do to each other here. So I guess I guess I didn’t notice any differences to how black players are treated. Generally, touching between people in my culture is more pronounced than on the west. Lots of hugging, touching (especially between women), including hair touching.
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@BR:
I gather that you have not seen too many european football matches or been in one? Patting, hugging, kissing etc. between the players is very common thing. Just look how guys congratulate Leo Messi at Barca. Also, I do not think that players are displaying homosexual tendencies when they pat each other on the buttocks. Or do you disagree?
Yes, there is racism in football. The banana throwing was popular back in the 80’s in Britain but not any more. Heckling, name calling etc. is pretty common. But the thing is that most football fans are “racist” against the colors of their opponents. If you support Everton, Liverpool red is the color to dispise, no matter what color the player or the fan carrying it is. One of the most feared football hooligans of all time was Cass Pennant, one of the leaders of West Ham’s Inner City Firm. He is black.
If you are refering to the recent riots in London or Paris, France, just look at the news clips. Instead what the media and the politicians are saying, the are not race riots only. You can see white kids in the thick of it too. In Paris the media portrayed the riots as being “immigrant ghetto” things, instead of saying what they were all about: the cops had killed a kid and got away with it. The “immigrant ghettoes” are poor neighbourhoods and there are whites living there too. And they were also involved in the rioting. But, as always, the media and polticians are doing their best to conquer and divide and portray these as “race riots” as means to divide the poor whites and others.
The big difference between Europe and USA is that while most of us know that nazis were bad, communists were bad, nationalism is bad, racism is bad (excluding die hard nazis and racists who are a absolute minority) in the USA racism is official. Yes. Just look at your passport, driving lisence, any document or paper you have to fill. In all of those they ask or have racial definitions. That is official.
In Europe culture and nationality is much more important than you color. African immigrants have much harder time than blacks who have been born in Europe. Unlike in USA, where many immigrant blacks are seen more positively than the blacks who are US citizens from the moment they have been born.
None of this means that there is no racism in Europe. There is. Eastern Europe is particulary difficult place, but even in there there are big differences between countries and places. The main difference is that the racism in Europe is not officially sanctioned as it is in USA, officially endorsed and up held via racial definitions of various kinds. In Europe we define our selves trough our nationality, language and culture. Henry Thierry is a french football star, no doubt, but also black. Ruud Gullit was a dutch, no doubt, but also a black guy. But when they are talked about in the press, they are not black, they are a french and a ducth.
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Concerning Gullit, his mother is a native European from Amsterdam, who was the mistress of a married Mr. Gullit, who had migrated with wife and children from Surinam to the Netherlands. As such he is/was seen as fully Dutch, with Surinamese roots, though his hair was black, he was born outside one-drop-country.
I read a nice investigation about what in the US would have been black teenage pregnancy: instead it was about Dutch Afro-Surinamese, East-African, West-African, Curacaoan (and Chinese) teenage mothers.
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B.R. if you think Obama is a black president, you are living in one drop country.
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@ teddy1975,
Obama is a black president because he says he is, and he knows that even in Europe he would be treated as black, if he wasn’t the president or someone famous. That’s a reality that many black people (often with less black family than he has) experience at home and abroad.
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Thank you Mira and Sam for answering my statements.
Sam , I have watched futebal from Europe , and , that is how I noticed that some white players will give a paternising pat on the head to the black players , like if they help them up from the oposing team after they knocked them down . And they do not do that same thing to white players. I totlay understand the hugs and kisses and pats on the butt, this is a specific action that American black people have recognised as patronising .
I also understand your breaking down the differances. Excuse me for pointing it out, but, it sounds like how sometimes northern American whites say they are differant from prejudice in the south but underneath is racism also.
As far as the European riots, white people have participated in demonstrations against racism and riots in America also, its what is the obvious problems underneath that created these situations anyway. I wonder if black and brown people in those places would agree with your definition.
What I am trying to say is, where there are differances in how it goes down, especialy based on regions, the racism by white Europeans is the same underneath as for white Americans, the same as in South America, there are differances but for sure the racism is as deep and debilatating as anywhere else in the world.
This isnt to justify American white racism , its just to say, I see it as the same racism just in differant clothes
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No , Teddy, Obama would be looked on as black in many many places in the world.
What Im trying to say is that, where I grew up, in a big north American city, nobody was anal about the one drop rule. Not the white people , not the black people. Sure there was prejudice, but, one drop rule trying to analyse every skin shade to figure out the percentage, just didnt exist on a large scale where I was from. And I mean in the black community also. Of course things like hair and how to wear it, and a natural noticing and understanding differant shades in the black comunity, but there wasnt some huge hiarcial thing where the light skinned people were higher up than darker skinned people or the darker skinned people resented the lighter skinned people.
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@bulanik:
Yeah, I noticed that too. I think there is an example of the racism a la americana for you. “Black/brown commentators shall be ignored if whites are talking”.
@BR:
Soccer, or FOOTBALL as we say over here, has many nyanses among the players. I’m not denying that players can be racists, there has been some examples, but what you see as “paternising pat on the head” only for blacks is done for whites too. Particulary if one tackels the opponent down and the referee notices it, players usually do something like that to show for the ref that hey, nothing wrong here. Also it is done to show the opponent that hey, I knock you down when ever I want. So that pat on the head is not sereved for black players only.
“this is a specific action that American black people have recognised as patronising”
I wonder how many has, since you are the only one I know that has made this point at all.
“I wonder if black and brown people in those places would agree with your definition.”
Not my definition, it is a fact. Though the immigrants have been pointed as the culprits in many riots, the truth is that it is about social injustice or, as in Paris, the actions of the police which have ignited these riots. Media and the elite wants to show them as race riots as a mean to divide people, to separate different rgoups from each other, well known and widely used tactic. So if in USA whites participate in demonstration against racism which turns into a riot, it is not the same as when black, white, arabs, asian youth fight it out against the cops in their very own neighbourhood.
“the racism by white Europeans is the same underneath as for white Americans”
Basically yes, BUT what makes the difference is that USA is a racist country officially. The state and federal authorities keep up the racial profiling, the insurance companies do the same, the education curriculum does the same etc. In most european countries states do not that. In most European countries the identity is not done by your the color of your skin but by your nationality, your language and culture. That is to say that if you, white I assume, and black american guy are in restaurant or disco or parties, you both are seen as americans, as the same, not black and white.
I understand that it is difficult to aknowledge the racism in the System or see it when one has lived in it all ones life, but that is why blogs like this are important. They show us things which we would never see or notice.
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B.R. You seem to have forgotten the One Drop rule.
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@Bulanik
The English have a strong aversion to Irish Travellers (of gypsies as they used to be called), and Irish also have a similar dislike.
Pikie is the word most commonly used as a derogatory term for those gypsies that are of Irish heritage. I dont know whether this is the same for those Romany gypsies as my only experience has been those from a Traveller background. Its weird isnt it but, although ‘white’, the Travellers are distinguishable in the following ways:-
– Generally a BROAD Irish accent, despite many of them never setting foot on Irish soil
– A reverence and respect for the Catholic church
– The girls dressed to the nines, no matter what time of day or the weather. Their way of dressing has come under much scrutiny since the airing of My Big Fat Gyspy Wedding and programmes of that ilk.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7GBamn8dP4)
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@Bulanik
Have you noticed a few people from the USA don’t want to hear or see anything that makes them think that American racism is NOT the model for racism and every other country in Europe follows and copies it?
Is it because they only believe what the see on TV?
I have indeed. This is in fact where the some of the disparities lie with White British and their American cousins. There is hardly a great amount of respect for the intelligence of American’s from whites in the UK – it seems they too are influenced by the media and when they see American chat shows e.g. Jerry Springer where people practice beastility with their cattle, they tend to believe it too…
Are these the same few people who don’t want to learn anything, but want to tell European black people that only black Americans really know about racism in Europe. Why is that?
Yup. These kind of individuals are so insular that their capacity to learn and develop has been stunted. Have you not noticed that all they do is come on here and bring forth the same insecurities and quote things verbatim from the same or similar texts and ask the same questions? Actually they are more rhetorical statements, yet they expect other commenters to give a decent coherent response to their drivel!
And, isn’t it interesting how some people who haven’t lived in European countries – like you and I have, as black (and brown) people – are ignored and disbelieved, because it’s only the opinion of white commenters like Sam and Mira who really matter? LOL.
Perhaps its a case of ‘better the devil you know….’ etc and maybe, they feel they know what direction the conversation can and will take and are more, for want of a better word, comfortable with this. To talk to someone who, by their mindset, has nothing in common with them is just to scary…and could also end up being an embarrasing revelation into how little they know about the wider world.
You must remember Bulanik that most of these people wont have travelled further than their own backyard, surely you dont think they would engage with Johnny foreigner…. 😉
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@Sam
“Basically yes, BUT what makes the difference is that USA is a racist country officially. The state and federal authorities keep up the racial profiling, the insurance companies do the same, the education curriculum does the same etc. In most european countries states do not that. In most European countries the identity is not done by your the color of your skin but by your nationality, your language and culture. That is to say that if you, white I assume, and black american guy are in restaurant or disco or parties, you both are seen as americans, as the same, not black and white.”
But you’ve got to understand that the collection of racial and ethnic data by the US government is largely the result of lobbying on the part of racial/ethnic minority organizations (e.g. NAACP). Classifications are made and statistics collected to detect employment discrimination, determine proper levels of government expenditure, etc.
I’m not sure if I agree with your characterization of differences between the US and Europe in group affiliation. The US is a civic nation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_nationalism), where nationhood is defined in terms of the Constitution, Declaration of Independence, and other manifestations of democratic ideology. All people born in the states are considered equally American. On the other hand, many European countries (France and Britain being exceptions) define themselves ethnoracially or in terms of descent. For example, Germany is regarded by inhabitants as the land of ethnic Germans, so Turks who were actually born there have in many cases been denied full citizenship rights.
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I don’t think I ever said racism in Europe is “better” than in the US, and I sure never demanded anybody to listen to my words because I’m white (or for any other reason).
In fact, I think I mentioned a few reasons for non-whites having a harder time in Europe than in the US, because (at least from my POV- correct me if I’m wrong), blacks in the US seem more organized and see themselves more like a part of a community, unlike a small black group living somewhere in Europe surrounded by 99% of white citizens. (Though, arguably, being a very small group as the opposite of a significant minority group can have its benefits, because it’s less likely for majority to see your group as a threat. If there are only 1000 of you in a country, your group seems like an interesting curiosity that makes the country more diverse. If there are 100 000 of you in a country, or a million of you, or 10 millions, you are “taking the jobs, corrupting the culture with your strange ways, you steal and rape and live of a welfare”).
This happens in my country. The few black people who live there (and I mean really a few – they are children and grandchildren of Non-Aligned nations students that came to Yugoslavia during 70s and 80s), they are doing much better and are seen in more positive light than the Gypsies, who make a significant ethnic minority.
To be honest, an ideal commenter (if there is one) for the subject of racism in Europe would be a non-white European. Preferably the one who’d lived in both Europe and US, to be able to make certain comparisons. Are there such commenters on this site?
Now, about the US vs Europe, I think USians of all races need to be aware of their American privilege and the way it influences their world view, including race discussion. News flash: just because things (be it race, ethnicity, etc.) are one way in America, it doesn’t mean same rules apply in Europe or the rest of the world. If a certain thing is seen as highly racist in America, another thing is actually more racist in Europe, something that you might not catch because you’re tuned to the stuff that matters the most in the US. Furthermore, if you deal with racism (or any other issue) in the US in one way, it doesn’t mean this is the universal way that it should be. Etc, etc.
This issue is very important, especially when judging other cultures, and please, Americans of all races, understand that you share a common culture that’s different than other cultures in the world. Also, black (and other POC) Americans, please allow non-whites from other parts of the world to voice THEIR opinions and THEIR views and THEIR ways they deal with the race, nationality and ethnicity – even if these views are not the same as in the US. This is particularly true for non-whites living in the so-called “third world” countries. Please understand you are westerners and that your own privileged status may not make you an expert on the lives of people in the third world, even if they share your skin color.
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To be honest, an ideal commenter (if there is one) for the subject of racism in Europe would be a non-white European. Preferably the one who’d lived in both Europe and US, to be able to make certain comparisons. Are there such commenters on this site?
I think that whilst your suggestion is good, the reality is that some U.S commenters have no interest in what is going on Worldwide, only in so much as how or if it will have an effect on their day to day living. I not only see examples of this on here, but also from friends/family etc that reside in the U.S
To appreciate that there are ‘different’ approaches to integration or different responses to racism forces people to have to shift, adapt and maybe change their mindset and many are not ready to do that……
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Bulanik, how interesting you want to make a snap judgement on me and then hold me up as an example ….
Did you ever think that I wanted to take Sam and Mira to task for statements they have made while I am waiting to see if I understand what a person of color like yourself feels, so I dont try to tell you anything. I saw your statements and Im trying to digest it, as well as i dont know anything about Ireland, but , I will speak to your judgement on me and say you are pretty hasty to make a statement like that not knowing anything about me.
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Sam, your heart is in the right place, but, you sound like a typical white American rationalising why his city is differant.
Mira, i didnt address you after your statement because you did acknowledge that there was racism, you did too , Sam, but, for instance, you go on about the system and all the racial classifications.
But it so happens that there are also laws on the books in America that specificly fight racism.
For the people of color in the USA and in Europe, you dont think a white person cant spot racism and rationalisation in another white person ? Cant spot descrepencies and hypocracies in another white person (not meaning Sam or Mira in any way )?
Ive traveled to Europe various times. Once with 4 people . Two white and two black, and one of the black men was older with grey hair and the other was younger and very black.
The young black guy was the guy who was followed around by the police in Geneva, and he was the one wisked into the back room in a French airport…Lets see, black futebol players from Brazil are called monkeys, and bananas get thrown on the feild in more than two countries, a dark young black guy Im traveling with gets special treatment from the authorities in two differant countries, Sam , sorry , I dont trust your analysis on the riots, sounds to me that there are very similar atitudes that are criticised about the USA also and are worth examining.
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Isnt that interesting, Bulanik and Dee, you have your anecdotal evidence and I have mine..
I can guarentee you, the young black guy I was traveling with was really pissed and said ” Things arnt any differant than in the USA”
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Let me say something also to Bulanik and Dee. You might travel to another place and for a moment feel very comfortable to get away from the viral racial climate that is the USA. You may think that things are dramticly differant.
Lets say that country might be a country like , lets see, Brazil , for instance. You may think that there is lots of mixture and racial harmony. But, if you spend any amount of time there, you will start to perceive that it is full of a racism much more insidious and represive. Nothing is out in the open, its all hidden, but, you see the TV looks like sweden, few black people in the airports or in the government or in the colleges , practicly excluded from any upward mobility….
YOu know, for sure the USA has got one of the most volitable, violent, devisive forms of racism anywhere ( yet a lot less than the nazi’s racial purges which were against black people also).
But, black Americans are incredibly intelligent, resiliant and have reached a very high dynamic of awareness of the parameters of racism. And it is so powerful that even the racist whites have to bend to it . They know you arnt suposed to pat black people on the head, they know they better expect indignation at a variety of behaviours, and, many behaviours have slowly been curbed or frowned on by much of society, even though they have just developed new ways to continue the same behaviour.
I am in no way justifying white behaviour in the USA or saying it isnt so bad, Im saying its pretty bad a lot of other places also
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@Bulanik
I don’t know how true these observations are across the board, because I can only tell you what has been said to me.
From my interactions with American friends and family members I agree that as you say, some of them do like, appreciate and embrace the ‘differences’. Equally though some, are extremely patriotic and derisive about Little ol’ Britain.
Again I stress though there are issues in Europe regarding race and although there is a difference, its the SAME difference….
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B.R. Please, the word is spelled “Football”. To spot racism levels, it is usually works much better to observe black individuals closely.
But small things, like a traditional healer, whose ancestors did not just escape the whites and fight them, but also initiated negotiations resulting in a peace treaty with them, stating a bit clumsy, that he is not giving special care to white patients, even though he is giving special care to ALL his patients, that is an indicator.
If an Afro-American mother, tells how her daughter went playing with a blond child, to illustrate the local race relations, and the blond locals (including dark blonds) fail to understand the relation, because there is no race involved, it tells something.
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Teddy…..you think its not spelled like that in Portuguese ?
What makes you think I dont observe a black person or black people up close to understand what they are going through ?
Other than that, i didnt get your example
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Hi Bulanik….Im right here, making some statements to you, not ignoring you..love to talk with you about it so you dont think I have dismissed you
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I think that it does not matter how one spells football in Portuguese when talking about EUROPE in ENGLISH.
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@FG:
“Classifications are made and statistics collected to detect employment discrimination, determine proper levels of government expenditure, etc”.
Sure, but insurance companies etc. are doing the same and states and federal government too. My question is this: if you are a citizen, why your government, authorities etc. have to know weather you are black or white? Because race is defining factor in USA. Period.
“The US is a civic nation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_nationalism), where nationhood is defined in terms of the Constitution, Declaration of Independence, and other manifestations of democratic ideology. All people born in the states are considered equally American. On the other hand, many European countries (France and Britain being exceptions) define themselves ethnoracially or in terms of descent.”
I have no knowledge of any European country which defines itself ethnically officially. But I do know that even when you are true blue born american, your race, the color of your skin, is defining factor. In Europe usually when you are a citizen, it makes no difference what is your skin color. If you are born in a country, if your parents or parent is a citizen, you are a german, a finn, a swede, a dutch, no matter what is your skin colour. This does not mean that there is no racism. There is. But unlike in USA there is no official race based cathegorizing, official authorities who ask your skin color in official forms and questionaires. For instance, when the bombs went off in London terrorist attacks, the shock was that the terrorist were brittish, third and second generation. That was the shock, not that they had certain skin color etc.
“For example, Germany is regarded by inhabitants as the land of ethnic Germans, so Turks who were actually born there have in many cases been denied full citizenship rights.”
I don’t think so. Germans consider their land as the land of germans who can be black or white or even turkish origin. The question is once again the citizenship. There are several turkish backround players in Bundes Liga (national football league) and even in national team. They are germans for germans because they are citizens. So the defining factor is the nationality, not the race.
There is a real problem with the turks who have lived all their lives in Germany and yet can not get the citizenship and yes, there may be racist reasons for that. But to claim that “ethnic germans” do not see any other color german as german is simply not true. Tennisplayer Boris Beckers wife is a black german, there are several actors and actresses in german tv shows, they were there already in 80’s (Tatort etc.).
Finland has one of the most homogenious populations in the world and yet we chose black woman as our Miss Finland back in 1996. Why? Because she was a beautiful woman from Turku, south western part of the country, and very sharp and funny and quick witted. Nobody, absolutely nobody said even at that time that she was not a finn. Some did not like that a black woman became a Miss Finland but even the racist thoughed her as a finn. Not a foreigner or immigrant. The ethnicity, very ambiguous term, was a finn, not african and definetly not a Black.
There is racism in Europe, that is true, but I stand by my view: USA is officially a racist country. Race is very important factor in every day life, you are not allowed to forget your skin color at any time anywhere. It is the System. This blog is a witness to that fact.
In Finland, if you fit in, you can sit in sauna completely naked with your friends and enjoy a nice bath and perhaps a swim on a lake no matter what is your skin color. No official will ever ask you: and what is your ethnicity? What color your skin is? HOwever, they will ask your nationality or citizenship if they spot that you do not speak fluent finnish.
I have been in pub in London where the crowd was completely mixed and nobody seemed to care weather the guy next to you was asian, black or white etc. In USA, from my own expereience, everybody notices the color of ones skin at all times in all places. Sometimes more openly, sometimes more subtle ways.
@BR:
“Sam, your heart is in the right place, but, you sound like a typical white American rationalising why his city is differant.”
I am not american, I am european. And I know for sure there is racism in Europe but there is no race based governing system as is USA. Just look at this blog and many topics here. And I am not saying here that european racism is any better or less than over there. All I am saying that there is a big difference.
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Sam , I know you are not American and I know your heart is in the right place…
Bulanik…yes, I am….since you thought i was ignoring you, it is my pleasure to give you all the attention you would like from me…
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My pleasure also,Bulanik
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…but excuse me if you have gained my attention since you made what i consider to be somer really wrong statements about me
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” On July 17, 1952, age 24, in his personal diary, Che Guevara wrote[1]: “The blacks, those magnificent examples of the African race who have conserved their racial purity by a lack of affinity with washing, have seen their patch invaded by a different kind of slave: The Portuguese. These two races now share a common experience, fraught with bickering and squabbling. Discrimination, and poverty unite them in a daily battle for survival but their different attitudes to life separate them completely: the black is indolent and fanciful, he spends his money on frivolity and drink; the European comes from a tradition of working and saving which follows him to this corner of America and drives him to get ahead, even independently, of his own individual aspirations ”
Interesting to see this example of looking at Aricans with a bad stereo type, comeing from the extreme left. Talk about the broken Africa stereotypoe
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Sorry, another name popped into my identification that i dont know how it got there, its B. R.
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…abagond, sorry, i made a mistake and posted this on the wrong thread, my apologies
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“BR
The young black guy was the guy who was followed around by the police in Geneva, and he was the one wisked into the back room in a French airport…
Lets see, black futebol players from Brazil are called monkeys, and bananas get thrown on the feild in more than two countries, a dark young black guy Im traveling with gets special treatment from the authorities in two differant countries, Sam , sorry , I dont trust your analysis on the riots, sounds to me that there are very similar atitudes that are criticised about the USA also and are worth examining.”
Traveling is not an indicator of racism at play.
I’ve lived in both US and Europe (pre-European Union). While in University in Germany, I would travel to Great Britian a great deal to visit relatives and without fail, I would be pulled over by Customs for further questioning (I am Jamaican), it got to the point that I started bringing bank statements from 2 countries just to prove that I had no intention of staying in Britian.
I could have easily told myself “racism” but I know better…there are so many West Indians living in Great Britian and the British believe that we are a “problem” when it comes to immigration; whereas, the black Americans I talk to never seemed to have any issues with Customs and are actually very well received by the British.
In contrast, I’ve never had a problem traveling on the European continent but my American classmates (both black and white) used to get hassled at the borders (pulled out of the car, car searched, gestapo like questioning), especially going into the Netherlands. It got so bad, they would ask me to rent the car and drive. I even got out of a speeding ticket in the former East Germany because the guard liked Bob Marley (and I gave him a bottle of Jamaican rum)
The difference I felt living in Europe and US: in Europe I felt that I was treated as an individual first based on my Nationality, and then my colour.
in US, my colour comes first and I am treated and spoken to as a racial stereotype.
Then when I speak (I have an accent), then I am seen as “other” who white/black Americans try to define based on their stereotypes of my Nationality…it takes awhile before I am treated as an individual and not treated as if I am a spokesperson for the black “race”.
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Ok Linda, I respect your experiances. Now Id like to tell you that I know that Spain is very strict about restricting Brazilians from coming in and expecialy black Brazilians, and women more because they think they will become prostitutes. They are treated very badly and called racist names.
What do you think about that, Linda ?
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“B. R.
Ok Linda, I respect your experiances. Now Id like to tell you that I know that Spain is very strict about restricting Brazilians from coming in and expecialy black Brazilians, and women more because they think they will become prostitutes. They are treated very badly and called racist names.
What do you think about that, Linda ?”
Linda says,
We’ve touched on this issue slightly.
I know these posts get lengthy, so I’ll re-post my reply to Tyrone.
“Tyrone
Come on black people, Spain and Portugal started the slave trade in the early 1500s, and they have the nerve to say that they’re not as racist as other whites, just because they support intermarriage more so than other whites”
Linda says,
Spain, to me, is one of THE most racist when it comes to skin colour. When I lived in Germany, I developed a dislike for them due to my fellow classmates from Spain.
They seemed so intent on putting down anything that was perceived as “black” or African, yet when the Germans would put them down or call them “dark”, they would get upset and would want me to commiserate with them on how the Germans sucked…
When the new Nazi party would rally on mainstreet, the Spaniards stayed indoors that day, just like every other foreigner.
but overall, there is no comparison between racism in US and Europe…USA wins this award hands down…the quality and feel is different…your nationality and ethnicity counts more in Europe.
As a black American, you Tyrone, would be seen as an American first and treated accordingly…you would be seen as a visitor and depending on the country, you would be treated very well because people would assume you have money (like maybe in Hungary)
or because you are American, you would be treated badly, especially if you don’t speak the language (like in France–outside of Paris)
The white American servicemen I would talk to seemed very confused by this, it was hard for them to learn that their white skin did not protect them from prejudice and hatred from other “white” people.
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Being from the Caribbean, and having family in both central and south America, I am familiar with “la raza”…
maybe that’s why I am somewhat biased when it comes to the Latino culture because I feel that the Spanish style of racism is so inverted that it makes the culture blind and this is why colourism is such a problem in the Caribbean and Latin America.
The Spanish (white Europeans) in Latin America basically solved their (native Indian /African) problem by openly endorsing mixed relationships and marriages so that the children would become “not black”…such as Argentina calling them “trigueno” so that black people seemed to disappeared off the social radar.
If you look at the history of southern Europe (Spain, Portugal, Italy), having been conquered by a darker “race” seemed to have left a lasting (lingering) impression and stigma on how they feel about skin colour.
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No problems, Bulanik, I knew what you meant.
Don’t be so harsh on the American posters, as you stated, if they are not exposed to views from outside of USA on a personal level, then its hard to constrast and compare, white Americans seem to be very nationalistic.
The schools in US truly teach in such a dogmatic way that by the end of the session, you’d be chanting: USA, USA like at a football game…it’s very easy to be persuaded by the rhetoric that USA is the best because the media in US makes the rest of the world seem like bumbkins.
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Bulanik, if that is some kind of referance to my point of veiw it is a severe mischaractoristion of what I am trying to say….
Who said the Americans are the true judges of what the “best” racism is ?…gees it sounds really strange trying to say what you are implying, it certainly isnt my point of veiw
I thought I made myself perfectly clear saying that you could travel to a place , like lets say Brazil , and initialy feel quite comfortable and know it is differant than the USA and less surface racism, but that you would discover that the racism is more insidius.
By the way, this isnt about denying the personal preferance of any person of color for Europe over the United States , I absolutly have no desire to make that claim, or defend it , as a matter of fact, there are places in this world I know Id rather be as far as the racial dynamic rather than the USA. Its just that, I find it interesting that you would accept and think that in Europe,they are classifying you nationaly, but, underneath they are checking out your skin color and making profiling judgements over that. The various examples Ive brought in are too blatent to just sluff over.
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Just wondering, Linda, do you think I have not been exposed to veiws from the outside world?
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Here is an article about some of the problems about Brazilians and Spanish immigration :
http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=41719
It doesnt go into the real detail behind the scene where the insults that the detained Brazilians hear are racist. Ive seen more detailed TV reports and they are especialy clear that they are racist.
Here is an example where it seems national, Brazilians are being stopped, but, underneath are racial undertones, Brazilians are looked on as mostly black by the Argentines and Spanish. And, some Brazilians who would consider themselves white in Brazil, are shocked to be called racial epiphets by the Spaish guards at immigration.
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“B. R.
Just wondering, Linda, do you think I have not been exposed to veiws from the outside world?”
That would be for you to tell me, B.R., I cannot be the judge of you, I don’t know you.
Most Americans I’ve encountered haven’t travelled outside of the US (going to Bahamas by cruise doesn’t count), so sometimes it’s hard to take one seriously when discussing foreign topics…but that is also stereotyping and I try not to do it (too much)
Your assessment of the Spanish being racist are spot on. The Spanish I met in Europe did not look at the Dominicans or Cubans as Spanish, they looked down their noses at them. The attitude of “whitening the population” is a concept perpetuated by the Spanish, so there is no surprise that they don’t want Latin Americans immigrating to Spain.
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Thank you , Bulanik and Linda for your answers.
Please let me clarify, Bulanik, I would never want to tell people in another country how they are suposed to deal with their internal dynamics like racism. I truly am sensitive to that issue, and , I didnt really express that .I didnt use that referance of black Americans as something that every one else is suposed to adapt to . I beleive black Americans are like that because of the unbeleivible violence that the civil war brought as well as atitudes and behaviours by whites before that as shown on the recent thread about “slave patrols”. The bitterness of the Southerners , the brutality of the “draft riots” in New York, created a tremendous preasure cooker for black Americans to survive in ( as well as slavery and freedom after the war) and it created incredible thinkers and fighters for the struggle the same say South Africa created noble leaders for their cause.
I want to clarify ,also , I never tried to tell Europeans what they are suposed to think and feel or black and brown people, I just basicly refered to valid reports that point to brutal outright racism by individuals ( especialy documented and shown in depth in TV news reports I have seen recently and followed a long time about futebal problems for Brazilians in Europe) and racism in the institutions like the customs agents and immigration in Spain, intimidating Brazilians with racial epiphets,and personal traveling anecdotes ( it was to France, Geneva and Belgium on that particular personal trip, sorry I didnt clarify that)
I absolutly havent lived in Europe and never went to Ireland, so, I am just making observations from a far……as many have done about the USA, and I wont criticise your right to make those observations but we do deserve to diolougue about that , dont we ?
OK I am willing to leave it at that, with you Bulanic, and its a pleasure to talk with you and I hope to diolougue more in the future
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Bulanic
Im not sure what you mean ? That is Tyrone speaking and I dont beleive the same things he does. I didnt mean just this thread . I meant on other threads, people have been criticle of racism in the USA without having been there , or just visited ( which I support the right to be able to make criticisms without having been there as long as there can be a dialougue and opisite opinion if someone wants to give one). I dont get that a high percentage of Americans on here except the usual suspects have any objections to you speaking your opinion about the USA.
Which means I support my right to make observations also based on personal experiance , information , books and documentaries
Which means I should be able to give my opinion about race issues I see in Europe and you should be able to make criticisms of the USA, which I might not agree with and vice verca.
Am I understanding you correctly or did I misunderstand ?
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This post isn’t about the US being horrible and Europe being amazing. I have no idea where that came from. I’m one of those people who don’t think racism is somehow “less drastic” in Europe, though I can see there are people who disagree with me.
All I wanted is to read about the differences that exist between Europe and US in this aspect.
And yes, the issue of American privilege may be relevant here. It was a guest post written by me, btw – and while I’d make some significant changes, the main idea stays the same: all USians, regardless of their race, have American privilege, which often makes them unable to understand USA is just one of the about 200 countries in the world. And that the way things are in the US might not be the same in the rest of the world. Or that American opinion might not be universal or relevant everywhere on the globe.
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Also, I just want to reiterate that, I would never say that how the United States deals with its race issues should be followed or copied.
Or , that what is good for black Americans , to deal with the obsticles and preasures they face, is good for any other country.
I do feel that you can analyse the racist behaviours in what ever country, and how it can raise its ugly head …and, what is the differance if Spanish immigration is bearing down on the nationality of Brazilians , but, is calling them racist epiphets in detention ? That element of blatent racism still has the same effect, its just coupled with the national identity .
I do feel we all can learn a lot by analysing all these places and how does this racism manifiest. Ive learned a whole lot from Herneth and Leigh about Canada, about Europe from you, Sam , Mira etc and a lot about Britain from you and the other British posters, a lot about the caribean from Linda , Dee, sorry if I dont remember if Demora has stated she is from there , and exceptional information about Africa from you , Malaika, and others here who im sorry cant call them off, I know quite a lot about South America, so, I think its ok to let the opinions roll, lets hash it out. Im here to learn also with everyone else
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Mira, I hear what you are saying to an extent…
For me, I never quite totaly get this “privalege ” thing..
I do know that there is American privalege, and, I do know there is white American privalege that my black , brown and red colleagues dont have…there have been more than a few of the of those studies where a white person goes out to inquire about housing , jobs or loans or what ever and he gets it and the black person doesnt. I know wealth gets passed down generation to generation and so does poverty.
I also know very well the face of false anti Americanism that brings no privalege and only at the worst insults and scorn and at the subtile leval , exclusion.
My thing about the word “privalge” is, outside of America there are a whole lot of other privaleged people. Then the word starts getting thrown around like who is the most privaleged , whos privaleged who is not and it starts losing its real value of defining the dynamic it should.
The biggest privalesges that I value the most dont have to do with what a lot of people are criticising as privaleged. But I have no problem recognising this dynamic in America and I know I have privaleges based on being white.
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American privilege has nothing to do with your race. Black Americans have it as much as white ones. For example, they are both safe from being invaded by American military because they happen to live in a place that America doesn’t like (Iran, Afghanistan). They both have an American passport. Etc.
The fact blacks and whites are treated differently IN America has nothing to do with it. Just like being racist has nothing to do with being a male or a female. Simply because females are discriminated against for being female doesn’t say anything about their racism (or homophobia, or other aspects where they might have privilege). Non-whites lack white privilege but even when they are discriminated against in the US, they still have American privilege just like any other American.
When Europeans (or whoever) discriminate against black Americans that doesn’t mean they suddenly lack American privilege. It’s just that the lack of white privilege for these people work against them and may be in some instances stronger than their American privilege. But not in others: a black American is still more welcomed in most countries of the world than a person (regardless of race) from the third world.
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* When I say more welcomed, I mean: allowed to enter the country. That’s a luxury many people of the world don’t have. If you come from America (or first world), they don’t ask many questions. But if you don’t you have to provide a proof that you have much money or that you don’t intend to stay in their country. *
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@B.R
Dee, sorry if I dont remember if Demora has stated she is from there
Is Demora me B.R?
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Demerera sorry about the spelling, I think there was a Dee on here but I recognise your name and are you from the caribean ? There have been a lot of informative posters that I just dont remember their names.
Well then, here is the funny thing , Mira, black Americans get double jeaprody. Black Americans know more about American injustice and discrimination than just about anybody , yet, many Europeans and there are some anti American Europeans, will be lumping black Americans in with America and its governmental policies and a corporate fed image of what black Americans are.
Bulanic, I think you are reading a lot into tht phrase I said. I just was
saying tht I support both of our rights to make opinions and criticisms about countries we dont live in.
“excluded” nothing to do with Europe, but, lets just say I spend a lot of time outside America.I do a lot of business outside America and I deal with a lot of opinions outside America about America.
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I have a question for anyone posting here.
Lets say you are a man with a black Brazilian fiance, or, a woman who has a black or mixed black Brazilian neice by the way of some union in your family.
She is meeting in France by going through Spain
In light of the report I brought in that talks about discriminitory policies and authorities hurling racist epephits , how are you going to feel about her going through Spanish custums ? What is it you would classify going on ? Just because on the surface it is Brazilian nationality that is in question, does that diminish the very real viscious racism underneath ?
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I meant that if you are a women then imagine a neice who is part black Brazilian , is coming through
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Bulanik, sorry about misspelling your name on the other post
I already said I have “American privilege ”
What I was trying to say is the concept of the words doesnt do justice to what it originaly was meant for, the concept that white Americans have more privilage than their black and brown colleagues.For various reasons, like slavery , the violence and discrimination as slaves and freed slaves
When privilage starts getting bandied about because of passports and when there are a lof of other passports that are carried by some very elite powerful rich privileged people from places that arnt going to get bombed, its all is relative and the original intention of the word gets lost…
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Mmmm….why are Europeans racist….Illegal immigration?? Nah can’t be that….disease and crime?? No way come on keep it clean buddy!….stripping Europe of welfare grants?? Ok that’s enough pal!!! Ok ok maybe Europeans battle to live side by side with a culture with such foreign habits? Anyway jokes aside it’s all food for thought.
Question: Why is it that all over the world where black emigrate, there is always “racial problems”? Is it always the inhabitants of the host countries or is it maybe blacks that should have a look at themselves and their behaviour? Just thinking out aloud but maybe this is relevant for a future discussion guys?
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@B.R
Demerera sorry about the spelling, I think there was a Dee on here but I recognise your name and are you from the caribean ?
No B.R, I am not from the Caribbean and yes, there is a Dee on here.
@Jimbo
Why is it that all over the world where black emigrate, there is always “racial problems”? Is it always the inhabitants of the host countries or is it maybe blacks that should have a look at themselves and their behaviour?
If I thought for a moment you were coming from an objective and impartial viewpoint and were interested in having a dialogue and coming to a conclusion about this i might entertain you.
Just thinking out aloud but maybe this is relevant for a future discussion guys?
I’d be more interested to know if this is something that you have articulated in ‘mixed company’ so to speak – somehow, I doubt it.
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“Question: Why is it that all over the world where black emigrate, there is always “racial problems”? Is it always the inhabitants of the host countries or is it maybe blacks that should have a look at themselves and their behaviour? Just thinking out aloud but maybe this is relevant for a future discussion guys?”
No questions need to be answered, look how they see themselves in Europe, ancestral homeland of Europeans and of whites. They live there, then demand whites bow to them. They don’t want to live with whites, they do not want to be equal with whites, they want whites gone period. Boot them out of Europe.
Blacks are incapable of integrating and living with others.
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Realism, where in Europe do you live?
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B.R.
What is your first language? Do you travel mostly to South America, Africa, or Asia?
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“teddy1975
Realism, where in Europe do you live?”
Teddy,
There’s no way “Realism” lives in Europe–his answer marks him as an American white. They think everyone has the same experience as they do.
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“They think everyone has the same experience as they do.”
Funny as I’m pretty sure blacks looking for support in the USA do that with other races aswell, also in Europe.
For blacks, it’s (to their delusion) us “coloured” folk against the whites, but that’s sadly not true to their dismay.
Why us whites in general (meaning us with European heritage) put up with your nonsense is beyond me. We can tolerate asians, as their mindset is nearly the same as ours, but blacks are to far gone with your head up your butts it’s stupidity gone wild. No where would places in asia bow to blacks, nowhere should us Europeans bow to you either. Take you’re collective BS and go back to your own homeland and stop destroying ours.
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Realism,
This post is about Europe, and the BS you just posted shows Clearly that you are a white American who has never set foot outside of the USA.
If you wish to rant about black Americans, pick another post, this one is not for you.
You have no understanding of how REAL Europeans think, and if you think that they look at you as an “European” white cousin, then you need to quit smoking whatever is blinding you.
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Us whites do see each other as brothers, because we are one and the same.
We stand united to fight back against the BS called multiculturalism that’s slowly destroying our nations, the WHITE nations.
We don’t see each other as the same culturally, but race trumps culture these days especially when minority groups are being allowed to ruin our nations while we stand still being afraid to be labeled racists.
I say the hell with labels, the hell with the UN agenda and the hell with being pc, us Europeans deserve to have a nation we call our own untouched by filth coming in by the thousands. Europe is for ethnic EUROPEANS only.
And you think I care about Mr.Abagonds blog rules? Heh, you make me laugh. A black man parading around under the guise of anti-racism while spewing utter garbage against us and expect us to just bow to you..no.
The garbage Abagond spews will backfire badly. There is no Anti-racism, racism has existed and always will. Spewing garbage putting the blame solely on and spewing nonsense against us is somehow being an anti-racist these days huh.
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Realism,
The US cannot be considered a white nation under any circumstances. The racial and ethnic diversity in the us has been here since the Europeans colonized it, oppressed Native Americans, and used Africans for economic gain. People have all colors have been here together since the founding of this nation and all peoples here must work together for a better future
.
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“Realism
Us whites do see each other as brothers, because we are one and the same.”
Now that line you wrote is comedy at it’s best, Mr. White American.
Yeah, maybe your fellow white Aryan members in the US of AMERICA see each other as brothers, but real EUROPEANS could care less about you.
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*but real EUROPEANS could care less about you*
Says the fact most have announced that multiculturalism has failed aka we can not tolerate anyone not white anymore.
Face it, the western world tried but being forced to integrate with outsiders by the UN is stupid, and will not go unchallenged. We wish to live with others who are like us.
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Silentreturn.
*People have all colors have been here together since the founding of this nation and all peoples here must work together for a better future*
I agree, but read the viral crap being spewed by whites by these so called anti-racists and say work together. Anyone on the planet can live together, blacks are excluded because theyre the ones causing the problems.
Asians and Europeans can live together fine, Europeans and Blacks can not, this isnt some false crap this is truth.
Once they are gone, the world can move forward. Racism will always exist, but tolerance works.
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*I agree, but read the viral crap being spewed by whites*
*meant towards white btw, but might as well include some whites betraying their own kind aswell siding with obviously people who want white people to become the new slaves of the age.
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“Realism,
Face it, the western world tried but being forced to integrate with outsiders by the UN is stupid, and will not go unchallenged. We wish to live with others who are like us.”
Glad you’re keeping up on your reading on the UN but the UN doesn’t dictate policy in Europe as far as immigration…try to pick a European country you can study and learn about, then come back to this post to attempt to converse about that country’s policies.
but once again, what does your feelings on race in America have to do with Europeans?…who, I repeat, could care less about you (white American)
They could care less how you, as a white American, feel about their politics. That’s why Europe barely supports American policies anymore, they are tired of you Americans pushing your Agendas on them.
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Realism,
Asians and Europeans can live together fine, Europeans and Blacks can not, this isnt some false crap this is truth.”
Once again, you’re speaking out the side of your ass because you have never lived in European country and have no clue about race relations in Europe.
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*Once again, you’re speaking out the side of your ass because you have never lived in European country and have no clue about race relations in Europe.*
And once again youve ignored the fact that most european nations are claiming multiculturalism has failed, this doesnt just mean cultural wise about assimilation, this means people of colour aswell.
So, unless youre willing to retreat back to Africa where you belong, Europeans will fight for our ancestral homeland, non whites need not apply.
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“So, unless youre willing to retreat back to Africa where you belong, Europeans will fight for our ancestral homeland, non whites need not apply.”
The only country that cares about assimilation of it’s immigrant population is the USA, your country…
You’ve obviously haven’t read the other posts (I know, they are very lengthy) but you would read how REAL Europeans feel about their countries…
and they don’t want half-bred white Americans moving to their countries either..
It’s too bad you could never go back to Europe because American whites are so mixed up, you can’t even choose a country– since most of you always say: I’m part “Welsh, Irish, Russian, Danish, Italien, Moldovian, 1/16 native Indian, English, Canadian, Javanese” LOL and that’s just on your mum’s side..
But I digress, Mr. American, you have nothing of value to add to this topic.
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@ Realism
I’m not going to argue with you, but if you think Europeans look at you as a “brother”, the you’ll find a rude awakening waiting for you if you ever decide to travel. Your culture is as foreign to them as the people you call foreigners are to you.
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“You’ve obviously haven’t read the other posts (I know, they are very lengthy) but you would read how REAL Europeans feel about their countries…
and they don’t want half-bred white Americans moving to their countries either..
It’s too bad you could never go back to Europe because American whites are so mixed up, you can’t even choose a country– since most of you always say: I’m part “Welsh, Irish, Russian, Danish, Italien, Moldovian, 1/16 native Indian, English, Canadian, Javanese” LOL and that’s just on your mum’s side..
But I digress, Mr. American, you have nothing of value to add to this topic.”
I don’t need to read anyones post, especially from non-whites who live in europe and openly bash it at the same time. Europe has been ethnically white, historically white and our homeland and you want to whine about racism and bash europe? Filthy maggots, that’s what you are. Go to an asian country, bash it and see how they feel about you.
Also I could, I’m of French and British heritage. I know, shocking I know where I’m from, do you? Probably not.
Also I’m not American, but it’s cute you assume that. Reading the crap on this blog has actually not helped at all with the “scourge” against blacks, it actually proves my point about blacks being no good. White countries should not be obligated to take any of you bigots if you wish to bash what hosts you.
Europeans will not stand for it much longer, I’d pray if I were you, because when it all goes down we all know whos targetting who.
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Tell me, oh magnanimous troll, why is that?
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Also, threats of violence are not allowed here. Why are you so emotional?
R U MAD BRO?
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“Tell me, oh magnanimous troll, why is that?”
I’m flattered you call me a troll, because that’s exactly what half of you on this blog are, including Abagond himself.
I’d be happy if he’d take off the title of “anti-racism” before he spread his viral bull about white people, because he looks like a paid black panther.
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“Also, threats of violence are not allowed here. Why are you so emotional?
R U MAD BRO?”
Also, was that a threat? Did I specifically target someone? No, I did not. I’m merely saying the obvious.
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“Realism
I don’t need to read anyones post, especially from non-whites who live in europe and openly bash it at the same time. Europe has been ethnically white, historically white and our homeland and you want to whine about racism and bash europe? Filthy maggots, that’s what you are. Go to an asian country, bash it and see how they feel about you.
Also I could, I’m of French and British heritage. I know, shocking I know where I’m from, do you? Probably not.
Also I’m not American, but it’s cute you assume that. Reading the crap on this blog has actually not helped at all with the “scourge” against blacks, it actually proves my point about blacks being no good. White countries should not be obligated to take any of you bigots if you wish to bash what hosts you.”
Linda says,
The only person on this post assuming is you…if you had read the previous posters, you would have seen people speaking positively about Europe and the white European population, and if anything, bashing the USA.
Several Americans have been to this post to complain about the “foreigners’ bashing USA and you are the second person to come on this post to say the opposite….so yes, I am suspicious of you and your Aryan nation agenda…
it does not fit the mindset of Europe.
For a European (if you are), the things you say don’t sound like it, you sound like an American (white) because your phrases are very similar to theirs…Assimilation in Europe has been non-existant, especially between teh different ethnic groups, that’s why historically, there has been so many wars.
The only thing that you have said that comes close to describing the European mindset is that Nationalism plays a huge part in many countries but
anyone who lives (have lived) in Europe knows that most European countries don’t like immigrants from other European countries whether they are “white” or “nonwhite”
So the things you say sound very disingenuous.
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Why all this hate bro? Why do you harbor hatred against non-whites when other demographics have a much greater reason to hate whites but choose not to?
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“Realism
I’d be happy if he’d take off the title of “anti-racism” before he spread his viral bull about white people, because he looks like a paid black panther.”
See this is what I am talking about…
what European talks about black panthers (an American black group), if you live in Britian or France, then you would have picked a political group in your country that supports immigrant causes…
you sir, are an American (part English/French), living in USA
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silentreturn,
Don’t even talk to him, he is a white American troll seeking attention, pretending he is European…he is not.
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“You’ve obviously haven’t read the other posts (I know, they are very lengthy) but you would read how REAL Europeans feel about their countries…
and they don’t want half-bred white Americans moving to their countries either..”
I dunno. The Irish seemed charmed when Obama acknowledged his ancestry from the island.
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“Why all this hate bro? Why do you harbor hatred against non-whites when other demographics have a much greater reason to hate whites but choose not to?”
I don’t, I tolerate most. Blacks are not tolerable, the comments on this prove how backwards they are, they deserve no sympathy and whatever ill they are subdued by.
“what European talks about black panthers (an American black group), if you live in Britian or France, then you would have picked a political group in your country that supports immigrant causes…
you sir, are an American (part English/French), living in USA”
No, I’m yet again not American .. good try. Deflecting this to an argument over nationality when you don’t know whites at all, you aren’t one. So keep assuming what you want, you’re false anyway.
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OK. Let’s try this yet again:
Tell me, oh magnanimous troll, why is that?
also…
Then clear up the confusion. What country are you from?
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“Realism,
No, I’m yet again not American .. good try. Deflecting this to an argument over nationality when you don’t know whites at all, you aren’t one. So keep assuming what you want, you’re false anyway.”
The only people who call themselves “white” in reference to themselves and not call themselves by their Nationality are “white Americans”
So the only false person is you, every word you utter reveals who you are.
Good try, though.
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Please tell me why black are in particular not tolerable.
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“silentreturn,
Don’t even talk to him, he is a white American troll seeking attention, pretending he is European…he is not.”
I have European and only European heritage. Your assumption that I’m American is what’s confusing you. I am not American, I do not use European as a strictly nationalistic term. European is a race, just as African is, just as Asian is.
Europe is where my bloodline started, and I’ll be damned if I’m going to let non-whites whine about it.
Don’t like racism in Europe? Back to africa, or even better go live with the Muslims I’m sure they’d appreciate you more.
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Realism might be a Canuck.
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“The only people who call themselves “white” in reference to themselves and not call themselves by their Nationality are “white Americans”
So the only false person is you, every word you utter reveals who you are.
Good try, though.”
Actually, I’m using that term because that is what most here use. I generally go by what I am heritage wise, which is European.
European Canadian to be exact.
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I like how this new guy ignores questions he feels uncomfortable with. He just a pwecious widdle troll, yes!
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*I like how this new guy ignores questions he feels uncomfortable with. He just a pwecious widdle troll, yes!*
I dont respond to the ones who arent that annoying.
*Bulanik
Again, you and whatsthatblacksname keep confusing the term European and my heritage.
My heritage is purely European French-British.
Why you assume I say that relating to nationality is beyond me, Im not American.
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“Realism,
I have European and only European heritage. Your assumption that I’m American is what’s confusing you. I am not American, I do not use European as a strictly nationalistic term. European is a race, just as African is, just as Asian is.
Europe is where my bloodline started, and I’ll be damned if I’m going to let non-whites whine about it.”
Linda say,
If you truly are not American, then why do you use so many American jargons and phraseology?
The fact that you keep repeating “Go back to Africa” as if this will hurt me means you assume that I am American and this statement bothers me if you say it as a white man….it doesn’t…I’ve only ever really heard it from white Americans.
I have yet to meet a European that is pan-European instead of Nationalist in favor of his own country & countryman…so you, sir, are an individual..hats off to you.
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Uhmm, thanks. I think.
My original question was, to put it plainly, you said you know your heritage and “we” (I’m assuming Blacks) don’t. I asked you why is that so? Your response?
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“Realism
Actually, I’m using that term because that is what most here use. I generally go by what I am heritage wise, which is European.
European Canadian to be exact.”
Oh Kay, now I understand why you don’t sound like a REAL European, who actual lives in Europe…you are a mixed white from Canada.
I don’t have much experience with Canadians…but I heard that you guys are similar to Americans…that’s why I thought you were…you sound so much like them.
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“If you truly are not American, then why do you use so many American jargons and phraseology?
The fact that you keep repeating “Go back to Africa” as if this will hurt me means you assume that I am American and this statement bothers me if you say it as a white man….it doesn’t…I’ve only ever really heard it from white Americans.
I have yet to meet a European that is pan-European instead of Nationalist in favor of his own country & countryman…so you, sir, are an individual..hats off to you.”
Again, I’m not American.
And no, I don’t say that assuming you’re American, or else I’d have been talking about the USA. I’m talking about EUROPE and how coloured folk want to whine and moan about racism when Europe for all extensive purposes has been historically white. You think Europe is all sunshine and lollypops? You don’t like it, you can leave. Europe should not be culturally and ethnically destroyed just to make folks who don’t belong there happy.
Actually Pan-Europeanism is rising more and more as race tensions become more apparent.
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Realism,
You’re missing the point, pal.
a) A true European would be proud of his country and ethnicity, and wouldn’t see Europe as a whole.
b) If you’re truly an European, you wouldn’t say that you have an “European heritage”.
c) There are Europeans who are whites and not westerners. Europe doesn’t stop in France or Germany.
d) There are non-white Europeans.
e) Why are we feeding a troll, again?
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Canada is different from the US in ways. After all, Quebec is like a bit of France transplanted into North America. They are really protective of their traditional culture from what I hear.
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“Uhmm, thanks. I think.
My original question was, to put it plainly, you said you know your heritage and “we” (I’m assuming Blacks) don’t. I asked you why is that so? Your response?”
Displacement due to slavery.
Most do not know where they originate from. Some do, some don’t depending on how the family kept the history through word of mouth.
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@ Mira , Linda and Bulanik
Shall we disengage this odious intruder? I think so.
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“Mira
Why are we feeding a troll, again?”
Mira,
I could not help myself, he was a riddle I wanted to solve because
I KNEW he was not European from the things he was saying “such as Europeans and Asians” live well together…that was hilarious and a definitive indicator that he was not European.
as well as his false belief that the EU means that Europeans are becoming as one ethically based on skin colour to form some kind of “Pan-Europeanism”…that statement shows he doesn’t live in Europe.
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If we feed trolls, they will entertain.
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“a) A true European would be proud of his country and ethnicity, and wouldn’t see Europe as a whole.
b) If you’re truly an European, you wouldn’t say that you have an “European heritage”.
c) There are Europeans who are whites and not westerners. Europe doesn’t stop in France or Germany.
d) There are non-white Europeans.
e) Why are we feeding a troll, again?”
A true European wouldn’t let his culture and his country be destroyed, I see Russia is the only one actually trying to keep their country pure and they aren’t even defined as European by me.
I’m ethnically European, I’ve already stated that I’m Canadian. I’m European-Canadian.
And as I said about Russia, they aren’t a western culture but at the same time not really European.
Yes, there are non-white Europeans, point? I’m talking about emigrants bashing and whining about racism in some European countries when for all purposes, they are the “white” homeland so whining to want to fit in is stupid.
Troll? Trolls are here to argue and not care, I very much care about my racial heritage and do not want to see outsiders ruining it.
I believe by some of your posts you’re European yourself, but I’m guessing most European countries do not see you as such.
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“Canada is different from the US in ways. After all, Quebec is like a bit of France transplanted into North America. They are really protective of their traditional culture from what I hear”
And he’s the only person who was actually right here.
America fought for independance from the Europeans, as such most Americans do not considered themselves as such, just Americans.
Canada did not. We have a strong British and French heritage and again I’ll be damned If European culture and ethnics are to stand by while our culture and homeland is destroyed by UN agendas of multiculturalism.
It doesn’t work, and never will.
Canada has been a multicultural country for too long, theres no hope of fixing the mess. Europe, must push back against multiculturalism that’s destroying the demographics and culture that is native to Europe.
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Troll? Trolls are here to argue and not care, I very much care about my racial heritage and do not want to see outsiders ruining it.
I just have to say this one thing. All you White priders come on here and your first post is full of hot air and bluster. Then you deride people for attacking you. All you had to do was come here, state your case calmly and rationally and people would have treated you accordingly. You really think being aggressive will make people deal with you in a civil manner? Really?
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Oh, sorry, I missed the Canada part. Anyway, you’re not European, so STFU, please. You might be white, we give you that, and here’s a cookie for you, but you are NOT an European. You might be of European heritage, but that’s not the same thing as being an European. Furthermore, Europeans will not see you as one of their own, except when it comes to race. But as we discussed here numerous times, ethnicity is more important in Europe. Not being an European, I guess you can’t understand it, but that’s how it goes.
I am an European, but my country is not in EU. So what? EU doesn’t determine an European heritage. If nothing else, Europe claims (though it’s not really true) that their cradle originated in my part of the continent. So yeah.
Russians are Europeans, even though much of their country is located in Asia. They are culturally European and they are white. What more do you want? EU doesn’t determine who’s European and who’s not.
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“Realism,
Canada has been a multicultural country for too long, theres no hope of fixing the mess. Europe, must push back against multiculturalism that’s destroying the demographics and culture that is native to Europe.”
With Canada being a country of immigrants (just like USA), as I mentioned assimilation was a must for you since the native Indians are the only real North Americans indigineous to the land.
Europe is not a country…it’s made up of many very Nationalistic countries who don’t want white foreigners moving to their countries either, let alone non-white ones.
Europeans are not and have not tried to assimilate foreigners into their population, so I don’t get your complaint concerning Europe…
your Canadian issues with assimilation are not the same as Europes, Canadas issues sound similar to USA.
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“I just have to say this one thing. All you White priders come on here and your first post is full of hot air and bluster. Then you deride people for attacking you. All you had to do was come here, state your case calmly and rationally and people would have treated you accordingly. You really think being aggressive will make people deal with you in a civil manner? Really?”
White pride is such a strong word, I happen to be exactly what mose of you are but wish not to say, someone who believes races can not exist together. Abagond spewing his BS makes the assumption that Whites are the absolute problem, when he’s far from it.
And by reading all that garbage being spoken about my race you wish for me to act civil? No, someone who wants to spew garbage shall have garbage spewed right back.
Calmly is for neutral oppenents, this blog nor most commentors are neutral.
“For whites to undo their racism they have face up to their own power and privilege, to their own history of brutality and terror.”
Whites are as racist as anyone else who lives in a majority country. Countries in Europe are mostly white, so trying to fix what isn’t broken doesn’t do anything, the natives will push back as some are now.
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“Europe is not a country…it’s made up of many very Nationalistic countries who don’t want white foreigners moving to their countries either, let alone non-white ones.”
No, you think that. But again if you aren’t white .. you have no say in how whites conduct ourselves.
They actually love when people come to their countries, plus if they aren’t coloured. Why? Because brothers/cousins we are all the same, one race, one history.
Borders define culture, not race.
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Realism,
I feel your pain. You are not an European (Europeans don’t see you as one of their own), and you’re not a native in your country, because you’re coming from an immigrant family.
But isn’t there something more productive to invest your energy into. I don’t know, knitting?
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“DNA studies do not indicate that separate classifiable subspecies (races) exist within modern humans. While different genes for physical traits such as skin and hair color can be identified between individuals, no consistent patterns of genes across the human genome exist to distinguish one race from another. There also is no genetic basis for divisions of human ethnicity. People who have lived in the same geographic region for many generations may have some alleles in common, but no allele will be found in all members of one population and in no members of any other.”
-U.S. Department of Energy Office of Science, Office of Biological and Environmental Research, Human Genome Program
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Realism,
If you care so much about your heritage… why are you talking to us?
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“But isn’t there something more productive to invest your energy into. I don’t know, knitting?”
No.
Until we have people whining about racism everywhere especially in bloody Europe of all things, I will not stop.
“I feel your pain. You are not an European (Europeans don’t see you as one of their own), and you’re not a native in your country, because you’re coming from an immigrant family.”
Ahh, but you do not see race. You see cultures, and nationalities. My race and my ancestral homeland should not be forced to absorb folks who do not belong there, especially ones who will always be considered outsiders.
They alway will be, so respect the original culture and original Europa and keep it European. They wish to remove and destory it, yet you seem to feel no remorse. What will you think when Ethnic Whites are far removed due to this? Will you care? Will you even make a sound?
Blacks, Asians all complain about being minorities, yet they at the same time can say postively that they wish to preserve theyre race and culture, why don’t Europeans? Because the UN and the dark ilk will whine racism!
Stand up for your country, stand up for your race.
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This blog’s demographics are a bit weird. Maybe one third of the most active commenters are black individuals (particularly women) of a European background. Another third or so are white American guys who are really into “HBD.” Someguy, Mira, Sam, and others fall into the residual third.
The fact that so many racial complaints are being voiced by black Europeans suggests to me that there is a distinctive white/black racial divide on the Continent. Though, it probably is not as significant as the one in the US.
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Well,the question was more or less meant, as an indication that Realism’s experience does not correspond to mine.
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““DNA studies do not indicate that separate classifiable subspecies (races) exist within modern humans. While different genes for physical traits such as skin and hair color can be identified between individuals, no consistent patterns of genes across the human genome exist to distinguish one race from another. There also is no genetic basis for divisions of human ethnicity. People who have lived in the same geographic region for many generations may have some alleles in common, but no allele will be found in all members of one population and in no members of any other.”
-U.S. Department of Energy Office of Science, Office of Biological and Environmental Research, Human Genome Program”
That’s nice, but now lets see coloured folk climb aboard. I see “white” supremacy spouted a lot and it’s mostly tied to Europeans aka whites while seeing stupidity as “whites have a mental disorder”.
“Realism,
If you care so much about your heritage… why are you talking to us?”
Because I’m adressing the outsiders who wish to see Europa destroyed from within to please folks who do not belong. Europe has been historically white, and our homelands. So when I see stupid crap like “racism in europe”and how whites can “fix” their racism, I laughed. Europe is for “white” race, as that is where we originated from If you dislike any racism in one country, you can move to another .. perhaps one with darker folks.
Asians would not approve of folks emigrating and destroying their demographics and culture, neither should Europeans stand by and be destroyed.
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“Realism
They actually love when people come to their countries, plus if they aren’t coloured. Why? Because brothers/cousins we are all the same, one race, one history.
Borders define culture, not race.”
This is the point where you are VERY wrong.
Being white will not give you “priviledges” on the European continent..maybe the British will see you as a “long, lost cousin”, since you are Canadian, but continental Europe, you’re Wayyy off base, people in Czech Republic still complain about how Britian screwed them over in WW2.
This statement you made is why I knew you are not European born or bred…being “ethnically” European does not mean you know anything about the Continents inhabitants and how each country sees itself.
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“Realism is mixed race… as well as bi-cultural and bi-lingual.”
My race is European (Caucasian, white whatever the hell you go by)
Culture? What culture? My culture has been destroyed by PC folks wanting to have the coloured votes.
I speak English only, no I don’t speak French.
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Realism. I have European ancestors as well. It isn’t only White people that can claim such ancestry. I have even traced the ship my Scottish ancestors came over in from Glasgow, Scotland. People who are currently classified as “White” don’t own the monopoly on Europe. I’m not White and it’s my heritage too.
We aren’t talking about hate here. Just like you, if we see an injustice, we speak up. So what’s the problem? This isn’t a White blog. We didn’t go to you, you came to us. Why?
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“Being white will not give you “priviledges” on the European continent..maybe the British will see you as a “long, lost cousin”, since you are Canadian, but continental Europe, you’re Wayyy off base, people in Czech Republic still complain about how Britian screwed them over in WW2.
This statement you made is why I knew you are not European born or bred…being “ethnically” European does not mean you know anything about the Continents inhabitants and how each country sees itself.”
I told you before, if you aren’t white you have no reason to be assuming what other Europeans would think of me, Mira had it right that I would not be seen as European by some, but again culture does not define RACE. Europeans assumed that in ww2, they don’t now They have their bickering once in awhile but for the most part it isn’t as different as Canada nor the USA.
Canada dislikes the USA, bickers with it, but at the end of the day we reside on similar histories, and similar cultures.
The only people who wouldn’t be seen as European would be the British, as they’ve always had a dislike of sharing powers with others and as such call themselves Britions First.
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“We aren’t talking about hate here. Just like you, if we see an injustice, we speak up. So what’s the problem? This isn’t a White blog. We didn’t go to you, you came to us. Why?”
No, you don’t. You speak out against injustices done by whites but I rarely if ever see anyone care much about any other injustice.
You’re different, you aren’t like Abagond or the rest. They reside on the premise that white = absolute when it comes to racism, and hate. Door swings both ways my man.
Im much opposed to multiculturalism, thats the gist of it. Europeans see this also, multiculturalism kills countries and the culture, Europe has been degraded from what its former glory was because of this practice.
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@ Realism
Well, the way I look at it is this:
Everyone has the team they play on. You may be on my team, you may be on a different team. In the end, we play for the tam whose uniform we are wearing as long as the sport is in season.
However, this is still a Black Blog for Black people. It isn’t just a Blog about general injustice. If your ethnicity is Black, then you’ll find the topics here relevant.
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*SomeGuy
You put it in an interesting way.
Ahh, Im done. Peace brah, cause that was put in such a way I really dont even want to continue anymore.
Fancy that, you made me feel somewhat guilty for sounding jackassish.
Touche my man.
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@ realism
Peace, bro.
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I told you before, if you aren’t white you have no reason to be assuming what other Europeans would think of me, Mira had it right that I would not be seen as European by some, but again culture does not define RACE.
oh, I am not assuming, I know for a FACT since I lived there for quite some time and as I am talking to you, I am also talking to my European friends (Real ones born in Europe) to tell them the things you are saying so we can laugh about it…
Don’t mean to be mean, but you truly don’t understand Europeans….they don’t give you special treatment for being white.
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“Realism,
I told you before, if you aren’t white you have no reason to be assuming what other Europeans would think of me, Mira had it right that I would not be seen as European by some, but again culture does not define RACE.”
Linda,
oh, I am not assuming, I know for a FACT since I lived there for quite some time and as I am talking to you, I am also talking to my European friends (Real ones born in Europe) to tell them the things you are saying so we can laugh about it…
Don’t mean to be mean, but you truly don’t understand Europeans….they don’t give you special treatment for being white.
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Folks, ‘Realism’ is an inmate of 1001 Queen Street West in Toronto, the local asylum. They must have let him loose on the computer as part of his ‘therapy’. Writing down his delusions helps stabilize him. Pay him no mind. If he isn’t from Toronto, then maybe he’s from Quebec, whatever part of Canada he is from, he is a loon and I am not referring to the bird.
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“Folks, ‘Realism’ is an inmate of 1001 Queen Street West in Toronto, the local asylum. They must have let him loose on the computer as part of his ‘therapy’. Writing down his delusions helps stabilize him. Pay him no mind. If he isn’t from Toronto, then maybe he’s from Quebec, whatever part of Canada he is from, he is a loon and I am not referring to the bird.”
I don’t go downtown, too many coloured folk. I’ve heard Toronto is nice besides the obvious lack of Euro-Canadians, wouldn’t want to move there though.
Quebec is eh ok give or take how you go about it.
You must be some sort of emigrant from India, or one of the neighbouring countries, we tend to get a lot of those on the east side but more east asians on the west side.
Sniff, smells like someone loves me too much but is afraid of a pure little white man surrounded by strangers.
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I dont understand points of veiw like Realism. I dont know Europe well enough to talk about a city and what emigrants have brought to the table, but, I can talk about an American city like Miami.
People from all of South America and the Caribean are flocking to Miami to join the Cubans and a tourist hip hop crowd from the USA, to make that town an incredible vibrant swinging city.
They have infused that city with an incredible life and soul. The culture they have brought , the economic growth they have brought has revitalised Miami. Before it was old wrinkled white celulite , but , black and brown people have brought Miami to life
You go into Sam Ashes in the Dolphin Mall and you see the biggest selection of congas and bongos Ive ever seen….
It hard to listen to the drek that is spewed sometimes about fear of black and brown people coming from another country
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“It hard to listen to the drek that is spewed sometimes about fear of black and brown people coming from another country”
I’m not talking about FEAR, read my comments.
I’m talking about the shame called multiculturalism that NO NATION needs to oblige by but western countries, which is the reason the west is dying.
Most European leaders have cited multiculturalism a failure, the USA is a craphole due to the melting pot theory aswell, along with Canada and our own multiculturalism.
It’s not just CULTURE that’s being destroyed, it’s the demographics of whites aswell.
I don’t see any asian country having their own homelands being taken over by foreigners nor should Europe itself need to.
Africa for africans, Asia for asians, Europe for WHITES.
If you dispute this thinking, you’re not against racism, you are for genocide, specifically of white folks.
I will not stand for that, we as a race deserve to survive and live on just as much as any others. Whites will be a minority not just in Canada/USA and Europe but WORLDWIDE in afew years. Legal genocide is what it is, and the UN is forcing the west to do it.
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“I’m talking about the shame called multiculturalism that NO NATION needs to oblige by but western countries, which is the reason the west is dying.”
Oh, geez, you’re back for more.
I’ll just say, this, I actually agree with you somewhat:
Europe should be for Europeans (both white and non-white)
African for Africans, (both white and non-white)
Asia for Asians, (both white and non-white)
Caribbean for Caribbeans, (both white and non-white)
South American for South Americans, (both white and non-white)
North America for North Americans, (both white and non-white)
Central American for Central Americans, (both white and non-white)
Pacific Islands for Pacific Islanderians….etc.
but here’s the problem, in the 1500’s, your European ancestors, in an attempt to escape War, Sickness, and Death, decided to leave Europe and move to other peoples (native peoples) land and create chaos for everyone else, and made money in the process.
It sucks that you have to suffer due to multiculturism but you need to put the blame where it belongs: on your ancestors who just couldn’t keep their asses home in Europe.
they opened up a can of worms that can no longer be put back in and covered, and as the saying goes, “payback is a bitch”
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“It sucks that you have to suffer due to multiculturism but you need to put the blame where it belongs: on your ancestors who just couldn’t keep their asses home in Europe.
they opened up a can of worms that can no longer be put back in and covered, and as the saying goes, “payback is a bitch””
The thing is, you’re assuming If my ancestors didn’t do this, then the world would have been all lovey dovey, which is false.
Europeans only did what everyone else was wanting to do, but were incapable of at the time.
If the roles were reversed we’d still be were we are now, abeit democracy probably wouldn’t exist.
Also the blame does not squarely belong on Europe, again you just completely ignored the UN agenda of forcing the west to adopt multiculturalism and absorb foreigners. Even Canada itsn’t immune to the BS spewing UN, they even claimed “visible minority” was a racist term! How utterly f’ing ridiculous.
“Europe should be for Europeans (both white and non-white)
African for Africans, (both white and non-white)
Asia for Asians, (both white and non-white)
Caribbean for Caribbeans, (both white and non-white)
South American for South Americans, (both white and non-white)
North America for North Americans, (both white and non-white)
Central American for Central Americans, (both white and non-white)
Pacific Islands for Pacific Islanderians….etc.”
The problem you just ignored yet again was that WHITES have the lowest birthrate by far on the planet. Within my generation whites will be the minorities of the world, and you think having us put with non-whites will somehow stop this?
You have a lot to learn, but then again your race isn’t forced into genocide.
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I think blacks and whites….and probably all other races don’t really mix….that we will never really get on…that we don’t really get on with blck people….that maybe their habit and persona are so foreign to our own that their is no reasonable prospects of ever getting on….I don’t know…just an open thought….
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My god, you do realise that all the Americas who brought slaves from Africa , have had their popular cultures totaly dominated by the concept of the culture they brought with them ?
We already are totaly in a multi cultural state
this sure is way off topic of the thread
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BS Jimbo, I mix just fine
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@B.R
Please explain….do you mean the way some. Young people talk ‘Gangsta” and wear beanies and baseball caps back to front and and their pants half way down their legs and demand “respec” coz they from the projects??
Is that what you mean??
Check out Discovery First 48….that’s what the world sees “hommie”…
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@Jimbo
I think blacks and whites….and probably all other races don’t really mix….that we will never really get on…that we don’t really get on with blck people….that maybe their habit and persona are so foreign to our own that their is no reasonable prospects of ever getting on….I don’t know…just an open thought…
I think its wishful thinking on your part. Whilst I realise that in some parts of the U.S and in other parts of the world maybe, what you describe here as your segregated Utopia is the ‘norm’, unless you are deaf, dumb and blind, then you cant have failed to see that in other parts of the world, society is very mixed and diverse. Of course there are issues and its not all peaches and cream however, neither are there mass riots and we are not building up to WW III either are we.
What is the ‘Norm’ where you live? Why do you find it necessary to project your own inhibited viewpoint out here? What bothers you so much that you need to continually allude to ‘imply’ and downright deny that diversification IS happening around the world?
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@FG
The fact that so many racial complaints are being voiced by black Europeans suggests to me that there is a distinctive white/black racial divide on the Continent. Though, it probably is not as significant as the one in the US.
I see you mean what you say, but yet, you rarely say what you mean. You ‘pop’ up every now and then with your own unique brand of implied separatist bullsh*t, mainly aimed at European commenters. There is a hostile undertone conveyed in your commentary but you dont qualify WHY this is?
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@Demerera,
Yeah sure…..we all get on just great…
Whites generally don’t want to live next to loud rap music and people loitering in the road with hoodies and attitude when they get home from a hard day at work.
That’s what I’m told anyhow.
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@Jimbo
Yeah sure…..we all get on just great…
If you say so Jimbo, though I doubt it regardless of who you are trying to ingratiate yourself with. You come across as slightly cynical and bitter to me, people generally dont like being around people like that, it tends to bring them down, make them feel low though I guess those feelings are not alien to you….
Whites generally don’t want to live next to loud rap music and people loitering in the road with hoodies and attitude when they get home from a hard day at work. That’s what I’m told anyhow
Yeah, I get fed up with the guy down the road who keeps banging the volume up when he plays his Ragga tunes and invites his degenerate mates to smoke spliff out on his front lawn and trying to talk like a Yardie despite coming from an Irish family but hey, thats just SOME people for you..
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Realism,
Within my generation whites will be the minorities of the world
Whites are already a minority: most people in the world aren’t white.
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@Demenera
Sorry that was a bit rough on my part considering your response…. 🙂
Yip sorry but where I come from the races don’t exactly get on too well.
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Anyway my point was generally white people don’t get on. We’re are poles apart. Whites like quiet and calm, blacks like loud and chaos, whites like trimmed lawns and sprinklers, blacks like brocken fences and unkept homes.
Whites enjoy laws and maintaining them. I kust don’t see a middle ground right now.
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@Mira
I think that person means minority in America. Right now, Caucasians in America are about 66% of the population. I am under the age of 25 and I am a Black woman too. This current generation is my generation and in my generation is when Caucasians will be minorities in America because of all this racemixing and immigrants coming to America.
I have NOTHING AGAINST Whites at all but that is the truth. Racism is everywhere on the globe and it needs to stop.People of all races need to live in harmony and live each other.
Besides this post is about racism in Europe. And it was you when you told me that racism magnifies itself in different ways in Europe than America.
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@Jimbo
Anyway my point was generally white people don’t get on.
?
We’re are poles apart. Whites like quiet and calm, blacks like loud and chaos, whites like trimmed lawns and sprinklers, blacks like brocken fences and unkept homes.
In the town where I live certain people, whether by accident, or design, reside in a particular area where yes, there is an apathy in terms of their property and the general look of the neighborhood but, it is NOT exclusive to BP. The part of ‘town’ that I am talking about is diverse in terms of racial mix. Actually, the most effort and ostentatious homes in that area are probably those from Asian backgrounds who often ‘extend’ their houses perhaps due to necessity as they often have large families.
I dont know why this is but certainly externally, most people seem to have given up. Yes it is probably one of the more poor areas in town demographically however, there are other areas which are just as ‘poor’ and diverse that dont succumb to the same apathy. I dated a boy from this locality and the general sense I got was that of stagnation and fear and most of all ‘keeping up’ a certain kind of behaviour – that of rebellion.
Just because you might live in an area where others around you dont have the same approach in terms of looking after their property as you do, doesnt mean you have to follow suit does it. Sounds like you know what you want, I cant believe you are that malleable.
Whites enjoy laws and maintaining them. I kust don’t see a middle ground right now.
Pretty sweeping and generalist statement which I refute entirely and give an example of as above. In the area that I describe above there was much disrespect, mistrust, abuse and downright flouting of the law. The guy that I was seeing was of Scottish extraction BTW…
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@Bulanik
We know, from many of the thread on this blogsite, that what it means to be black in the US is heavy, brutal and pretty polarized in many places. Especially with all the are seriously disturbing, painful stuff going on right now.
Agreed
In that context, do you think that some mixed-race people in the US feel ‘trapped’ by the confines of being ‘racialized’ there, and long for looser definitions of who they are? Could some mixed-race people feel resentment towards their counterparts in Europe because they perceive us as ‘escapees’ from that?
I think in the US there are strict historical confines which do not permit people of mixed race being considered as racially ambiguous as perhaps they may be in other parts of the world – what’s your take on this?
Look at the One Drop Rule:
Does it exist in a real way in European countries?
Is it at all important to us?
Is it a necessary feature in all European cultures?
Do all racialized European people think it’s important?
Do we need to “self-enforce” it in our daily lives?
The confines mentioned above do rear their head in the minds of some in Europe however it maybe not as restrictive, rigid or as all encompassing as it seems to be in the U.S.
And, because we can talk about it like “an option”, do you think it disturbs a few people in the US because they personally want to also self-define as “not black”? Do you think it’s THAT which brings out some conflicted feelings when we discuss our *alternative reality* (lol)?
LOL Bulanik Yes. I think that people really do think that we are talking about a racially diverse Utopia and this is quite frightening for many. I do NOT mean to suggest this is the case at all though as I have stressed on several recipricocal posts I have made to comments on here and other posts.
I do feel though that White Europeans are always trying to differentiate themselves from their American Cousins and in part, this is what drives them to establish a ‘different’, more politically correct, socially accepted way of behaving and reacting in terms of race and issues surrounding this. They feel ‘superior’ in this, though in their day to day behaviours we know better dont we Bulanik 😉
What say you?
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Adeen Danica Mckenzie,
I agree, but I have no idea why any of this should concern Realism, since he’s not an American nor an European.
Also, being a minority is not about the number of people. In many colonized countries, colonizers were in a minority comparing to the natives, and yet they had the most power.
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Thank you all very much, Demerera and Bulanik , incredible in depth looks and analysis. Mira you are always helpful
I havent even seen the youtubes yet , but, lots of information to absorb
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“Realism,
Also the blame does not squarely belong on Europe, again you just completely ignored the UN agenda of forcing the west to adopt multiculturalism and absorb foreigners. Even Canada itsn’t immune to the BS spewing UN, they even claimed “visible minority” was a racist term! How utterly f’ing ridiculous.
The problem you just ignored yet again was that WHITES have the lowest birthrate by far on the planet. Within my generation whites will be the minorities of the world, and you think having us put with non-whites will somehow stop this?”
Whites have always been the minority in the world, nothing new about that…and the UN is not a policy maker for their member countries…the UN cannot “force” any country to take in immigrants…
I’ll give you a hint at why there are immigrants in Canada: it’s called the British Empire and the ability of all it’s current and former colonial subjects being given the “right” by the British government to travel, study, move to, or work in the Commonweath…
so, I suggest you take your complaints to the Queen for sympathetic ear and Parliament for any formal complaint you want addressed…this forum is not the place.
I had thought about making an attempt to converse with you but it’s really difficult since you keep trotting out your Aryan manifesto mantra over and over…very dim conversation, not illuminating at all
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“In that context, do you think that some mixed-race people in the US feel ‘trapped’ by the confines of being ‘racialized’ there, and long for looser definitions of who they are? Could some mixed-race people feel resentment towards their counterparts in Europe because they perceive us as ‘escapees’ from that? ”
I would say the contemporary application of the one drop rule is quite complex. It depends on alot of factors (e.g. age, region, socioeconomic status, etc.). One pattern that many have noticed is that white people are often more positively disposed towards and accepting of biracials with a white mom. This may be why many white people are quick to point out that Obama, Halle Berry, Mariah Carey, etc are “not black.” I fall into this category, which may be why I have had different social experiences than other mixed people who frequent this blog.
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I know that I don’t want to live in the vicinity of inbred, white-trash tweakers who have the cops pounding on their front door on a daily basis, while they engage in yet another incident of meth-induced D.V.
Lots of neighborhoods around here used to be perfectly liveable until gentrification…wherever the strip-malls pop up, the Wal-Marts and trailer parks follow.
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@all:
I am white european, white nordic european, actually I am as white as european can be since I come from the country that has the most homogenious population in the world according to our DNA and genes. And U can assure you all that as a completely white european, totally sow white european, I find Realism guy simply funny.
He is canadian. He claims to be european which he is not since he is from Canada. He claims to be european by race. There is no european race. We europeans have waged wars between ouselves for centuries and many times those have been against “another race”, that is against other white europeans. We white europeans have never agreed what is european race even way back when the race biology was at its peak over here some 70-120 yrs ago.
So I find extremely funny that a canadian guy claims to be something we europeans do not even agree among our selves. Not top mention the scientifical evidence about the whole race issue, but that is another story.
He says that only Russia is doing something to stay white european. Buddy, do you have any idea, even a incling, how many different nationalities and ethnic groups and cultures live in Russia? I bet you do not, That is why you say stupid things like that. Even Vladimir Putin is not “pure great russian stock” you dumbo.
All this “european ethnicity”, “european roots”, “european heritage” talk reminds me of one document about black american athlete who wanted to find his african roots. What happened? Well, he did not have those african roots. What he had was scottish-irish roots. His great grand parents were the first blacks in his whole family history. Every single one of the others were scottish-irish. Hows that for european roots and race Realism?
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sorry the typos
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Ok , Im really trying to absorb the great information that Bulanik, Demerera, Linda, Mira , Sam and others have shared about Europe.
It seems you all are stressing that nationality is what is concentrated on more than racial definition and you all have acknowledged that racism does exist. Yet, saying that it really can change from country to country.
Does that mean that it is more like the concept before the Euro, that Europe is continent with many differant countries , cultures and languages ?
Dies this mean that , like in Spain, based on those reports that authorities were barring Brazilians from entering and then using racial epiphets, that in some countries racism can be in the institutions ( customs and immitration), and others not so much ?
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Bulanik, interesting what you are saying about mixed couples in Europe versus the USA.
You are saying there could be some issues that have to be dealt with but it is less of a preasure cooker than in the USA
I tend to agree with you. I think in the USA, there could be the feeling of being checked out by all sides and certainly not be the normal status quo…not that a mixed couple couldnt go through many normal days with no hassle, but, that inevitably they may get stared at in a certain situation of made to feel uncomfortable in others….maybe more so than Europe , you think ?
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@Bulanik
Having a white mother can make a difference to a black/white bi-racial person? Sometimes this makes a b/w biracial person “not black”?
I admit I never saw that at all. I don’t doubt, but I never saw it.
Yes, it is odd isnt it. In my experience, WW who date BM are often seen as ‘less than’ by WM and other WW so it’s surprising if this parentage can/does make a positive difference in the grand scheme of things. However, I will admit that on the surface, it could be argued that there is credence to this. For example, friends of mine with this parentage have talked about going places with their mothers that other black people would balk at going to and unless they are acutely aware of their ‘black side’ for want of a better terminology, they are unaffected/oblivious to any slights they may receive. Maybe WW as mothers not being as ‘aware’ of any microaggressions, shields their mixed race children somewhat?
IMO, I think what can and does happen is that when a WoC brings up a mixed race child it is usually their ethnic/cultural/racial history that comes to bear upon the child and as a result they are often more appreciative of their non white side. I have rarely noticed this to be the case the other way round.
My own observation in European countries is that that a black-white biracial person is no less ‘favoured’ for having a white mother at all. Having a white mother is not really a big factor. Actually, the opposite might be truer, if I am really pushed to answer either way. I have this feeling because I believe that white men tend to have higher social status than white women.
I think a white father – one that is present in his child’s life and visible in that child’s upbringing – is more ‘recognized’ and confers more protection from his “white status” onto his child
As we have alluded to earlier, people see what they wanna see, when they wanna see it but no, I dont think that having a white mother is a big factor at all. I would in fact agree that in the wider world, having a white father is more recognised and, for want of a better word ‘accepted’ in terms of social status. Unfortunately for WW they will always be tarnished by those who think in those negative terms about IRR.
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I just wanted to say something about this “one drop rule”…
I was raised in Chicago, it is a hard core northern USA city that has brutal racism.It has an enormos black population and I was in a grade school that was predominantly black and high school that was thoroughly integrated.
This “one drop rule ” thing just didnt exist, it was like a relic from the south or something. I never heard it aply to anything. I dont ever remember it being an issue in the black community , only issues of hair or things like that. I never encountered it in any official forms or things in Chicago…..can anyone out there from Chicago confirm or deny this ?
It just seems really strange to have any American or non America peg the USA as some one drop rule thing when a lot of places it just wasnt in the culture at all
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http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/mixed/onedrop.html
A good article, though according to some this idea has spread into some parts of the Caribbean. Anyway, it is not European, neither is it African or Afro-American, it is just a dirty trick played by Euro-Americans on Afro-Americans. It is a white American’s definition of “black”.
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Does that mean that it is more like the concept before the Euro, that Europe is continent with many differant countries , cultures and languages ?
Of course. Europe isn’t “the united states of Europe” in any shape or form. Europeans don’t have any shared identity, except the fact they’re from Europe. Even to the outsiders, they will talk about their nationality and ethnicity first. You won’t hear a person from Germany saying he’s European.
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Thank you , Teddy, it is a very good article…
I still, being raised in Chicago, 8 years in New York City and I never heard any people personaly discussing this…It never was an issue in my pesonal experiances. If it is in the courts in New York or Chicago, i just wasnt aware of it.
It just seemed like a total non issue. I barely ever remember hearing the word “octeroon”. It seems like something like jim crow laws from the south that we never saw in these cities, brutal racism , yes, but never this kind of breakdown.
There are so many ethnic groups in New York, so many extremly mixed people, like the Puerto Rican people, Dominican Republic, any kind of referance about “one drop rule” seemed extremly limited.
Anyone from New Uork have a differant perspective?
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@B.R. Of course Europe consists out of different countries, with different histories, one cannot project experiences in Ireland on Liechtenstein, in the same way that Belize, is not an indication for racial relations in Washington DC.
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Thanks , Mira…I was around way before the Euro so I always looked on Europe as a bunch of differant countries…I wonder if people outside of Europe started thinking differantly because of the Euro?
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…and Teddy too, yours came in while I was typing…
Im still digesting the article you brought in
It really is strange to me, and, for sure I may be out of the loop, but, defining the USA as the one drop rule just doesnt compute with me.
Its like a relic from the south…but your article did address that
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Im also wondering, if ,in Europe, they are more interested in nationality, what is the differance with New York, where there are a huge amount of nationalities, and , they really break down that way and have their own neighborhoods retain their own customs and nationality is as recognised as race…Puerto Rican, Jamaicon, Dominican, Korean, Chinese, Jewish ( not a nationality, i know but a New York entitiy), Russion, French, Italian, Polish, Irish..etc
Europe and New York both have racism but it seems that nationality may trump that in New York in terms of identity, dont know , just wondering…is New York closer to what the Europe concept is ?
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…of course in New York all the nationalities hate each other
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Of course the USA is much more than the one drop rule there are comic book heroes like the Avenger, Captain America and the Flash hamburgers made entirely out of beef, nukes,and so on, but the one drop rule is typical for the US.
You don’ thave to talk about it, it is just the way things are.
Very few USAmericans would dare to question the designation, when their Afro-American wife cuddles their baby and calls her “My sweet little black girl”.
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Well, NYC is a very international city, so it is more similar to a bunch of countries who have not very much in common.
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@BR:
“Does that mean that it is more like the concept before the Euro, that Europe is continent with many differant countries , cultures and languages ?”
Lets make few things clear: the Euro is monetary union. European Union (EU) is political union. Europe is the continent.
Not all european nations belong to the EU and not all EU member states belong to the Euro zone.
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And not all parts of the Eurozone are EU-members either.It is true that the European Union is often called Europe, but that is not unlike the America-counterpart.
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Thanks for the clarification, guys…
Teddy, its just that, of course if someone has a phenotype , they are classified as such, but, I absolutly never saw a form to fill out that asks for the percentage of their racial backgrounds…never..has anyone else in America? If you fill out the form and ask the race , the person puts what they classify themselves.
If its suposed to be so ingrained, why did I never become aware of it as relative to where I lived ? It actualy almost seems absurd when aplied to cities like Miami, New York, Los Angeles, states like New Mexico . And, Im acknowledging Im out of the loop on some things, but im extremly aware of others.
Im addressing this one drop thing based on if that is how Euorpeans define their racism as differant , and define the USA as one drop, then I find it worth talking about and looking into…I dont define my American experiance , in an integrated atmosphere, as having much relevance to a “one drop rule ”
If Im off topic , let me know
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For the Europeans and Americans who think the one drop rule or classifying races is only in America, here is an article in New York times about Brazil and how they have integrated quotas into their system and are very activly in classifying people and who qualifies as black
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/03/29/brazils-racial-identity-challenge/?hp
The white Brazilian hate it because they think it came from the USA but, Brazil is one of the most racist countries anywhere.Of course not like the USA
Maybe countries with histories of slavery and discrimnation need to address these things that way…I dont know
Again, if this is off topic , please let me know
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B.R., as usual, use of the ODR in Brazil is denied in the discussion. It is a US-thing.
Classifying races is natural, thinking that because a mother is classified as black, her child has to be classified as black too, is ODR.
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Teddy, why am I seeing this ? Is this false ?
“When the U.S. Supreme Court outlawed Virginia’s ban on inter-racial marriage in Loving v. Virginia (1967), it declared Plecker’s Virginia Racial Integrity Act and the one-drop rule unconstitutional”
This implies that the “one drop rule ” is against the law in the USA, which is opisite of what you are saying…Im confused
but, that is off topic, lets get back on topic. Im just curious, those of you in Europe, how would you classify this :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes
Is it anything like “profiling”? I know its a sensitive thing because London was on high alert after the bombings there. But, just looking at it from a distance, how would you define this in Europe?
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Man, it seems if you follow the Brazilians to Europe, you are going to find the worst most brutal kind of racism. It seems based on what you all are saying about nationality , that it does fit in with “nationality”, they are Brazilians….
But , wow, the greatest futebal payers in the world are black Brazilians, and, they get the most brutal racist taunts , it seems.Like I said , I saw a documentary that showed many incidents of great black Brazilian players getting called “monkey” and throw bananas on the feild from Spain, to Italy to Russia
I brought in the article about Brazilians being barred from entering Spain and then being treated horribly by the authorities and called racist names..that is in their institutions, immigration and customs
Do you all think there is a stigma against the nationality of people from
Brazil?
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1. Unconstitutional is not non-existent.
2.Jean Charles deMenezes, Racial misprofiling, some Latinos look rather Arab/North African to the northern European eye, George Zimmerman does. And they are the ones who get, certainly post 9/11 more or less the “black” police treatment. High tension, to err is human. Maybe the rising threat of white terrorism will help to get suspects of terrorism a more humane treatment, though I do not have high hopes for that.
3.” Illegal immigrants” rings a bell? Brazil is NOT part of the Schengen territory. Unfortunately my knowledge of Latin languagues is limited to Latin, French and a bit of Italian. So unless you, I do not follow closely what is happening in Iberia.
4. Football is war, insulting the opponent any way you can (unless you have a common arch enemy) is part of the hooligan version of the game. Spain is the World Champion BTW. So your “greatest” seems to be based on past glory.
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1) Still confused , not a good enough answer
2) ok. Hers is something of interest , I read this in the New York Times today in an article about the differance as how the USA fights terrorism and France, they say:http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/01/sunday-review/the-french-way-of-fighting-homegrown-terrorism.html?_r=1&hp
About 2/3 rds of the way down they mention that France has been acused of racial bias …only to shed light on these situations, again its delicate, I think fatwas on authors, murders of playrights and death threats to cartoonists is an ugly climate and demands a responce
3) From my profesional travels to South America I can read Portuguese, and , I follow Brazilian newspapers, and, those incidents were reported in major newspapers and TV reports, and, it was disgusting, it was like it was a Missisippi bus stop greeted by the klan police.
Then there is this :http://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/19/world/amnesty-accuses-spain-of-racism-in-its-treatment-of-immigrants.html
“
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4) For one year ? With Brazil and 6 world titles ? Pele is unquestionably the greatest player who ever played the game..
Romario, Ronaldo phenominon, Ronaldinho, Roberto Carlos
I rest my case….
Linda, looks like you are right about Spain, and, I hope my black American collegues take a look at this :http://www.billboard.com/news/american-trumpeter-injured-by-police-in-1307693.story#/news/american-trumpeter-injured-by-police-in-1307693.story
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Look BR, in the current FIFA ranking the top three is European, 4 is Uruguay and Brazil comes fifth which shows the current inferiority of Brazilian football beyond any reasonable doubt. OK, #5 out of about 200 is not bad, but calling them greatest is at best poetic license.
If you need to go back to 2002 to find an article about racism in Spain, it still seems better than the US, but I grant you, Spain is not a country black people from the USA tend to be very charmed by.
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lol, my best friend (who is anti-EU) told me about this abomination of a promo clip. What do they promote, I wonder?
And yes, you’re absolutely right… Europe is a violent continent, even if you don’t count stuff Europeans did to people on other continents. in fact, this IS what makes Europe what it is, and this IS one of the main reasons for a different approach to race in Europe.
Because most of each European countries have historical enemies that are also white. Usually their neighbors. Someone they’ve been fighting and hating for centuries.
Each European nation and ethnic group has its historical friends and enemies – and these enemies are white. This is why in Europe, unlike America, being white is not enough. No, if you belong to the “wrong” white ethnicity.
Obviously, the Balkan shit is the most recent example of this (and western Europe can disregard it, pretending Balkan is somehow “not really fully Europe”), but the same violent sentiments and hate can be found all over Europe (England and Ireland are just one example of it). Even stronger, because contrary to what history/politics wants to tell you today (and more importantly, what it wants to tell us here on the Balkans), there is NO centuries long, continuous hate between various Balkan ethnicities; it’s a fairly recent phenomenon.
So, EU should just STFU about Europe being a peaceful, rational continent.
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Absolutly great points by everybody……..
Mira, Im hearing you about that much ethnic hating is white against white….do you think that in a way, racism can be looked at on seperate terms in Europe, like this is this over here and that is that over here?
There are white on white conflicts in the USA, a virulent anti jewish, severe political breakdowns by concervatives and liberals, religious versus non religious (anti abortion doctor killers) , past heavy discrimination against Irish and Italian…yet the white racism against black people and the slavery past and violence and after the civil war , north and south, makes it have a big space that stands out on its own.
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Teddy, I apreciete your thinking I had to go to an article that is in 2002, but, If you really check it out, Ive been bringing in racist instance after racist instance in Spain, including in their institurional immigration and customs sectors. Those instances with Brazil were really recently, in the last year or two…
I only want to bring in these incidents for us all to examine and discuss, Im not even scouring the net looking for them, I already knew about them, but not the Amnesty International report .Im not trying to make Spain look as bad or worse than the USA, this is not a defence of the USA, for me its saying its the other side of the same coin ( by the way, you havnt cleared up my confusion about the one drop rule yet, I see a law that said it was uncontiturional and you say it doesnt matter….are you really saying this one drop rule is actualy a state of mind? It doesnt look like a national law)
My black American colleagues can make their own mind up about what they are seeing , and if racism against black Brazilians , or soccer hooligan racial epiphets are harmless, I have no desire to tell anyone what they should think , Im mostly brining in valid reports of things that actualy happened
Teddy Teddy, cmon, you are only going by the current champion ? I would think that who has racked up the most over a long period of time is what indicates dominance in the sport…I admint,Brazil is not at its top game now…Neymar hasnt proved he can win a World Cup yet…
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B.R. I was going by the FIFA ranking OF THIS MONTH.
You really don’t understand Europe, do you? It is much easier for black people WHO PLAY BY “OUR” RULES, to be seen as “ours”. White skin does not signify alliance, languague often does (and I am talking accents and all that), so if my ears tell me “one of us” and my eyes tell me “much darker”, the conclusion my brain reaches immediately is, “So we come that dark too”. On the other hand, there is a bit of truth in the claim that black people have to work harder on showing themselves “normal”.
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“BR
I admint,Brazil is not at its top game now…Neymar hasnt proved he can win a World Cup yet…”
Linda says,
I was just talking to my husband about Neymar this morning and how I wish Brazil would defeat Spain for next World Cup Title and how the Brazilian national team just did not look impressive last World Cup (since Ronaldo retired)
Too much hope is being placed on Neymar…he cannot handle pressure like in the Brazil vs Paraguay …Paraguay plays very agressive and Neymar was totally intimidated and could not perform.
I like Bayern Munich but they are no match for Real Madrid and Barcelona…I dislike Italy (AC Milan) even more than Spain…so I feel a “bipolar” when I find myself cheering for Real Madrid…I’m happy when they win but I feel dirty for cheering knowing that I can’t stand Spain.
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This thread is about European racism, not European football (except as an example of the former).
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Sorry Abagond.
I’ll therefore add to my previous post:
I hate that I support Real Madrid because Spain, to me, is a racist country and the Spanish football fans are disgusting…FIFA needs to start monetarily fining the football clubs everytime a fan throws a banana on the pitch or makes monkey noises when the black players have the ball…
Maybe hitting their team in the pockets will teach the Spanish football fans some manners.
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@Bulanik
the white mothers instill a feeling into their bi-racial children that their whiteness makes them smarter and prettier than black people?
Its weird but, in the most negative examples I have experienced, this is exactly it. The mothers conveniently ‘forget’ that what contributes to the child’s ‘make up’ is in part black. This is not the case for ALL I might add and, as time goes on and we are much more exposed to different cultures etc this will decrease i’m sure.
I am also mindful that these particular IR couplings i.e. BM and WW were the forerunners for IRR in Europe and these people had to endure much but clearly they prevailed and their ‘stories’ are a stark reminder of how far we have come.
Even though I can’t pretend to know any of this for sure, I do feel that any black/white bi-racial human being who experiences anything like this must feel confused in themselves, and not a little anger towards blacks. Perhaps they curse their fate!
Confusion, denial, self loathing – unsurprising really when you dont have any positive examples around you. I think I told you about a girl who I went to school with who’s mother told her she was raped by a black man which led to this girls conception. She really was at odds with who she was – she certainly couldnt ‘pass’ and it was touch and go really if people even knew she was mixed race such was the hue of her skin and hair though in her features she favoured her white mother. I see her around a lot and she is with a WM and her kids have come out almost white in hue. I bet she’s relieved that this is the case. I think she would have found it tough otherwise.
This comment resonates with me For whites to undo their racism they have face up to their own power and privilege, to their own history of brutality and terror. It is not easy…
I think if you asked WP in Europe they would say that they have done this. In parliament a few years back I recall Tony Blair ‘apologising’ for slavery – do you recall this? I think the problem is whilst they say it, the don’t own it. Again by saying it, they feel superior to their American cousins but by not owning it, makes them little better if at all. What are your thoughts Bulanik?
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Sorry, Abagond , for bringing that up ,I get exactly what you mean and , sorry Linda for me throwing that out there, and , nice recovery
Teddy, you are right I dont think in that same way, I am trying to get what you and the others have said and Im slowly absorbing it
Good info Demerera and Bulanik
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Bulanik, very good information there about Churchill, the atitude towards people from India, and , the Gypsies….
Where I always will want to never lose sight of what happened to the jewish people in the holocaust , I also want to know the truth about all the other people persecuted by the Nazi’s. None of them in any way cancel out the loss of the other groups , they are all important, and, we dont know much about so many of the other groups situations in holocaust.
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@Bulanik
I even know of mixed-race (Indian+white) people, who actually hide their Indian heritage out of shame. In fact, more than 3 times I have met people who had an Indian grandmother that they had to keep quiet about out of shame.
The term ‘Anglo Indian’ applies to many celebrities in the UK media – I can think of Alistair McGowan and Melanie Sykes to name but a few.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Anglo-Indian_people)
Think I may have said this somewhere else but Cliff Richard has Indian heritage and so did Freddie Mercury but strangely, they are absent from the list above – perhaps because their origins are more Indian than European?? Not sure on that one.
Do you remember a programme called ‘Mind your language’ that used to show in the UK in the late 70’s early 80’s? It showed the ‘typical’ bobble headed Indian, in fact, all of the characters were characterised based on stereotypes…..
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUgk3pWrnUY)
I wonder if in part this typ of prevailing attitude prevented and still prevents people from openly embracing their cultural and racial heritage? Its odd isnt it, that this stigma should still prevail but perhaps it is just another reminder of how far we still have yet to come….
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@Bulanik
Isn’t Freddie Mercury actually Zoroastrian Parsi (Irani/Persian)? I believe his family settled in India after they left Zanzibar.
Yes, in part this is true but his father was actually born in India which I guess explains why he has been referred to as Britains first Asian rock star
(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/music-news/8828994/Freddie-Mercurys-family-tell-of-singers-pride-in-his-Asian-heritage.html)
Meanwhile I definately see what you are saying about Francoise – tell me, slightly random question but, there was a dancer in Pans’ People who’s ethnic origin I was always curious about – any ideas?
(http://www.guiltypleasures.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/legs_and_co-488×366.jpg)
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@Bulanik
Just looked it up, yes she was “Anita Mahadervan, the first Asian dancer to appear on Top of the Pops, although Mahadervan did make occasional appearances before 1981”.
Before that apparently there was a Black dancer called Pauline Peters. Looking through photo’s I can only guess that perhaps it is the female on the far left of this picutre
(http://www.sixtiescity.com/Mbeat/pp5.gif)
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@Bulanik
Added in for a bit of variety, was she?
Indian!
LOL. Yes, the peeps at TOTP like to do their bit for cultural diversity….interesting cos they probably could have got away with not doing so at that time which makes me wonder if there was a demand for it…… 😉
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@Demerera
http://www.panspeople.com/?q=node/295
Pauline Peters, says she was born in Burma, she is Asian-Burmese.
Wow, didn’t know that about Freddie Mercury. He was an amazing artist.
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@bulanik: Ushtasha was the croat fascist organisation in WW2, ultraviolent group (even some nazis were repulsed by their actions) which was resurrected during the Balkan wars in 90’s.
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@deedee7789
Thanks. I stand corrected, clearly Wikipedia needs amending on this then. This was where I got the information from about Pauline.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legs_and_Co.
Re Freddie Mercury: Yes, I heard about this some time ago. There were feelings amongst the Asian community that he didnt acknowledge his heritage enough. Though I liked some of their music I cant say I was a particular follower of his so not sure if there was any credence to this.
I do wonder though, if he was more overt about this at the time, whether it would have impacted on his and Queen’s rise to fame or whether in this instance people would merely have sat back, relaxed and enjoyed the music…
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@bulanik:
Ushtasha was after anyone they saw as enemies but the serbs suffered at most. The jews and gypsies etc. were also targets.
There was one black german guy who actually was enlisted for Hitler jugend at first but then kicked out when his “aryan” roots were discovered. I forgot the name of the guy. He was a kid but in the beginning supported the nazis. Weird story.
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Very informative posts Bulanik and Sam
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@Bulanik
As usual a detailed and informative post. I can but marvel at your knowledge which in this case, I lack so I read this with much interest.
How much bearing does this colonial legacy have on current European racism?
I suppose if we believe there is a overhang from colonial times, doesn’t this mean that some Asian bi-racial people in Europe are perceived as ‘higher’ up the racial scale than full Asians and nearly white.
Most definately I do agree. Going back to someone like Melanie Sykes who maybe could ‘get away’ with being racially ambiguous but, I do wonder whether she would be revered as she has been by many if she embraced her Asian ancestry and culture more fully? Of course, this doesnt detract for the fact that she is an attractive woman but for the ‘race realists’ aka the ‘real racists’ they would not be able to overcome this unless the person assimilates totally and completely.
A few years ago, the presenter Jenny Powell appeared on Loose Women as a panelist when the subject of race arose. I was shocked at the vehmence and negativity in her response about immigrants and the way she really tried to distance herself from it all. Her parents are Asian by way of Africa.
There seemed to be some deep seated issues there and though no psychologist I cant help but wonder that as her parents were so obviously non Europeans that at times, it must have reared its head for her….
I guess what I am saying is, depending on the racial mix of individuals, it seems some are able to have it work more favourably for them than others…
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Bulanik, good Lord woman,
you are a fountain of knowledge!
I would enroll in a course you taught anyday, keep on dropping this great information.
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Bulanik,
was skimming the web earlier about the Roma, and saw the name Utashe come up once . But when I googled the word, nothing much came up.
Are the Utashe Croatian?
Sorry for my late reply.
I have no idea for the lack of Google search results. The only thing I can think of is that they are spelled Ustaše (š = sh) so maybe it’s because of the spelling that you couldn’t find anything.
They were Croatian fascists. They had concentration camps, most famous being Jasenovac. They killed Serbs, Roma and Jews. Their goal was ethnically clean Croatia (which was very difficult to achieve, since many other ethnic groups, mostly Serbs, lived there for centuries). (This was, btw, one of
the main reasons for Balkan wars in the 90s: while Croatia and Serbia were both part of former Yugoslavia, they had their republic borders, similar like the states withing US. Serbs still lived on this territory, and Croats still wanted ethnically clean Croatia, while Serbia wanted to unite these territories. Same shit happened in Bosnia).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usta%C5%A1e
The rising Ustaše movement was one of the reasons why my Croatian grandmother’s family left Croatia and went to Serbia. I guess they were against it.
According to Ian Hancock, the Utashe collaborated with the Vatican against the Roma during WW2. Can you tell me anything about this?
Well, this is something certain people here like to emphasize, but I don’t know much about it. Maybe the link can provide more info.
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@Bulanik…No – you do. Linda just beat me to the punch with her, <bBulanik, good Lord woman, you are a fountain of knowledge! I would enroll in a course you taught anyday, keep on dropping this great information." – I feel like I've been lurking in the presece of some serious wisdom ( not that sam, Demerera, Mia, et al haven't been schooling my Black American a** as well!)!
I've been following the ongoing discussion on this post (with nothing to add, I must say), in wonder and amazment regarding how little I know/knew. Thank you so much for the history and background Ii>NEVER learned in an American school!
And THIS is i why I follow Abagond’s blog!
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Ii>NEVER =I NEVER
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Bulanik…the pleasure is all mine, believe me. Again, Thanx.
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@bulanik:
East asians, or as the region is called in finnish Far east is usually seen positivel or nautrally in Finland. Friend of mine had indonesian father but nobody ever thoughed him as not finnish even when we were kids. Nor his brother or sister.
When the vietnamese refugees came i late 70’s there was some apprehension and tensions but usually east asians are seen not racially, that is there is very little racism towards them on the whole. There has been some incidents though but I guess because their work ethics are seen as almost lutheran and theiy seem to fit in more easily, they have had much more positive image than say the somalis.
Here Asia is seen as a geographical region. It is believed to be east fo Urals, across the great rivers of Russia down to the Black Sea and across the straits of Bosporus. So Turkey is part of Asia and Middle East is Asia, as well as the Indian subcontinent. Middle East is called Near East in finnish and countries like Afganistan, Iran, Uzbekistan,Tadtzikistan etc are Central Asia.
People do not attach that much racist ideas towards asians in general though some do: turkish and kurdi kebab restaurant owners are sometimes called Hairy wrists etc. but in general people are seen as working guys and that is always a good thing in finnish culture. If you come here and start your own business and work hard, hey, you are almost a finn (or as we so much like too see ourselves even if it isn’t completely true).
As for Italy, I think you are right there. Your analysis is in my mind pretty accurate. The hostility that the northeners feel towards the southeners reached its peak with the political party Northern League which was promoting the idea of independent northern Italy, separated from the “corrupted and mafia infested south”. Which is funny because the northern industrialists and bankers and politicians have always worked with the organized crime from the south.
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@Bulanik
If a Asian bi-racial in Europe chooses this way, the way of disowning any non-white heritage or attachment, then that person does not have to define themselves as “in opposition” to white culture – they are white culture. They hold the keys, and they can be gatekeepers to whiteness, so to speak! (lol) White people can ‘trust’ them. They want white trust. Do you think this is a fair thing to say? Is there any truth in that?
100% correct and this is territory that other PoC can’t/won’t/don’t want to explore. The ‘condition’ of this acceptance is total separation from cultural/racial lineage. You need to learn to become ‘devoid’ of any emotional attachment to your heritage but, only the very very strong survive this…
I have witnessed individuals from bi/multi racial backgrounds who ‘think’ they have conquered this, only to go out with new friends/work colleagues who let rip about their feelings re the ‘ethnic’s.’ Its painful to see their faces frozen in a smile that doesnt touch their eyes OR in other cases, being the most vocal and vehment in terms of support for their peers racist commentary.
Now, the question is, do you think that a person with an obvious hue to their skin would ever be fully accepted in the same way if they disown their cultural/racial lineage? Would they be able to succesfully assimilate and earn the said ‘trust’ OR would the less subtle or more obvious ‘difference’ continue to be a barrier? I raise this because an aquaintance of my mum once said that her cousin (a Black man) was a ‘member’ of the NF. Now, we all know there are so called ‘Rented Negro’s in this world but, I never believed this could be true…
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First, I wanted to ask, based on what you all are saying about Asian presence and reactions, what was the general reaction to the murder of that director, the fatwas on the cartoonists and fatwa on Simon Rushdie…?
And, its interesting, Bulanik, your in depth analysis and Sam’s and Demerera and Teddy and Mira and others has totaly done a great job to describe the aspects of the seperate countries and languages and identifying with nationalities more, etc
But darned if the things you have described about the atitudes of white people towards dark people , and, the incidents I brought in about racial epitphets, racial profiling, etc, just make me still think its the other side of the same coin.
Yes, I would say that people of color could go to Europe , understanding the differances between countries, and find more relaxing atitudes towards dating and things. As a matter of fact, in the 40’s and50’s, many black American jazz musicians flocked to Europe exactly for those kind of reasons and for feeling more accepted into societies there….yet, based on things you have said and the racial profiling incidents I have brought in, if I was a person of color traveling for the first time in Europe, I wouldnt lally gag around on the streets at night too much, and I would make sure to have the phone number of the consulate of their country ready at hand to call if something happens
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Ok, Bulanik, let me try to clariy myself. I thought by your definition that “Asian” refers to the Middle East, it was only based on that. And I thought you were describing the complex reations to their presence.
I dint say Rushcie was dead, I said there was a “fatwah” put out on him to kill him.
After all the incredible information you all gave, I absolutly know it is complex , what I mean and I refered to before is that you can look at pure prejudice against black people in that context, knowing it is one thing among many other complex things like what you described. I feel know jealousy or superiority or agenda.What I do know is there are these racial profiling that I anecdotaly experianced with my black American colleague, one on the street so it wasnt national profiling at imigration, it was just , the guy was very dark black and got followed .And he got dragged into the little room, plus the stuff in Spain with there immigration…Arnt those reasons to be able to look and analyse ? I totaly ackowledge your statements about racism and if anything your comments only made me think more that there is something to seperate and look at on its terms , among all the other complex things that you have broken down that absolutly deserve to be looked at also….
Absolutly you are correct in general, one shouldnt lalygag anywhere.
i dont feel competition about it, I thought I did describe white on white racism in the USA, so I do understand that and thanks to everyone here for their descriptions of it in Europe
My only point about people of color traveling to Europe is, if you have lived in a place where you have had to forge your antenna to deal with racism, dont just pack it up and put it away if you go to Europe, keep it up, just my opinion, people of color on here who never went to Europe can make up their own minds about it. I absolutly dont want to say people should be afraid…..but Im not taking my black Brazilian wife through Spain anytime soon…and, OK, I take your word for the defensivism, I live in a country that has a lot of anti Americanism so I have my own defensivism also
And I do thank you and the others for all the great information
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” I feel know jealousy” should be ” I feel no jealousy…” duh
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My take on this topic is this: In a lot of ways, it makes sense that racism in Europe would present itself differently than it does in the USA. B.R., I see your point about not ‘putting away the antenna’ when travelling; expecting to NOT encounter racism would be a tad naive, for certain. At the same time, I don’t want to travel through Europe (or any other continent) as a tourist – I want to learn the language and immerse myself in the culture, not see the same few spots that are always displayed on the ‘Travel Channel’ or on postcards.
Here’s an interesting story:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17623031
One other thing – I enjoy watching many different British-made comedies so am familiar with that specific brand of racism. Here’s an example:
http://www.lofg.com/character_profile.php?profile_id=1
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@Bulanik
I like how much you know about history and people. It is very good and I learned some History reading your posts too.
@Mira
You have a point. Yeah in some countries, the conquerers and ruling class were the minority in the land and it is about realism, you are right.
Racism as to go:in America, Europe etc.
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Sepultura13 , thanks for the links.
Yes, from all the great information on here, it definitly is a differant dynamic. When I said the other side of the same coin, I met specificly the racism aspect of white racism against black people.And, I meant that one side of the coin is differant from the other.
Great idea about learning as much about the language and culture.
Now that I revealed my wife is black Brazilian, and my son mixed, you know I have a real reason to be interested and informed. My son had a freind who was mixed looking and lives in Germany and he sais the police hassle him all the time. And, my wife has 3 sisters in Italy and one is very dark and she has told of hearing some racial epihpets .
Im only just sharing some anecdotal incidents not meant to judge what happened…it does apear Brazilians experiance more than their fair share of racism.
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Bulanik, I think based on things that you have said and Mira and Sam, and Teddy, Demerera and anyone I forgot, yes..Im all ears
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@bulanik
I think the Jews experienced the worst racism in Europe as well as the Gyspies because they went through so much in the Holocaust.
Other races and enthcities go though racism too in Europe as well as Blacks, etc.
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“Bulanik, I think based on things that you have said and Mira and Sam, and Teddy, Demerera and anyone I forgot, yes..”
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Did I misunderstand ? You are asking me what I think of racism on people who are not white in Europe ?
Well,Adeen touched on one that I would say was pretty heavy.The Nazi’s also went after the Romas, which you pointed out.And they looked down on in various places.
Miras area has some very heavy white on white racism…
What is happening in Spain with ETA, is that ethnic white racism?
How about Ireland?
I know what German atitudes were about slavs in the World WAR 2, does any of that still exist? How about with Bauvarians (sp)?
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I mean “white on white”
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Beleive me it was fascinating to hear you all talk about , lets say a half asian or something like that, who wants to be accepted where they live, they have to give up their nationality ( meaning sence of nationality)
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@B.R. and Bulanik
Yeah Hitler even targeted Whites that didn’t agree with him politically such as Communists. He didn’t like disabled people or homosexuals.So they went to concentration camps as well. Hitler hated a lot of people especially the Jews and Gyspies.
He targeted Christians and Jehovah’s Witness and just about everyone who didn’t agree with him and didn’t have blond hair and blue eyes and weren’t German as well.
Yes, Hitler hated Blacks too but there wasn’t a system or anything that he and the Nazis made up to actually exterminate Blacks as he did the Jews and Gyspies.
Yes, there is racism in Europe because my mother visited there and she told me. She was in the Netherlands once and she bumped into a Caucasian woman once, said sorry but the Caucasian woman gave her a dirty look because she was Black. I know someone from Europe who told me racial incidents in Europe.
Hitler hated the Jews more than anything because he blamed all of Germany’s economic and political problems on the Jews. He felt Jews were inferior to the ”Aryan” race: blond hair and blue eyes.And that they were subhumans as well. His extreme anti Semitism is the reason why he started building concentration camps and most of all, starting that horrible Holocaust. He hated Gyspies because he felt that they were bad for the economy.
@B.R.
You are right on an half Asian having to give up that part of their nationality to fit in. If you were a half White half Black person, which side would you choose so that you can survive and benefit in society?
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As for Hitler (and I don’t want to make this into the “look at me, look at me!” thing), but let’s not forget one of the main enemies of the Aryan race were Slavs. Who are white. Often light-haired and blue eyed.
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I won’t talk about racism in the whole Europe because as many people seem to forget, no matter how small it is, Europe is more diverse and complex than you’d think. As an African woman, I did grow up in Africa but I have lived in France, Belgium, Luxembourg and Canada for the last 16 years. I also had the opportunity to travel to many other Western countries and have experienced different reactions with regard to my skin colour. Except in Canada where some people have mistaken me as a Haitian person since French is my first language, nowhere else was I seen as other than an African woman, neither in UK, nor in the US and if there’s something that I’ve learnt is that there’s a ranking in white racism, and we African, are definitely at the bottom.
First of all, people have to bear in mind, that except the UK and France where most black people are from the Caribbean, most black people in Europe are African immigrants. They’re people from former colonies, from countries which are still dependent on development aid from their former “masters”. They’re people who are on a daily basis portrayed in media as living in shanty towns, at the mercy of morally corrupt dictators, always begging or waiting for the world to save them and not let forget their many kids who are always excited and have a big grin whenever they see a white face. The colonial history permeates the society and still influences the racial relationships.
Racism in different in each European country. I experienced racism in Luxembourg but it didn’t bother me as much as in Belgium. The reason is people from Luxembourg are xenophobic: it goes beyond the colour of skin. They just don’t like foreigners because they’re outnumbered in their own country by all the other European people who live and work there. in Belgium, on the other side, the racism Belgian people show towards African people is worse than in France. When you have a king who proclaimed a whole country to be his property, when you have a revered king who had no qualms having children’s hands cut off and when this king is portrayed as a national hero, why would be surprised to see his subjects, the children and grandchildren of his subjects act with the same contempt towards anyone who has African roots? You have to know that those former European empires have a load of shit put in their history books and have no shame voting laws which absolve them of what they did. So people there feel they’re justified whatever they want and treat you with disgust, just because you’re black.
In France, because of the mere existence of French overseas departments and territories, racism is kinda stratified there. The people for North Africa are more hated than Sub-Saharan African people and then black people from the French West Indies. The first two groups are considered as (eternal) immigrants no matter how long they’ve been living on French soil. The people for French West-Indies are more tolerated because let’s face it, they have less African features. In France, racism goes hand in hand with colorism: the lighter or the more European features you’ve, the more chance you’ll consider biracial and God forbids, black, Obama isn’t seen as a black person in France because there’s no one drop rule there: he’s seen as a biracial person because he’s a biracial person who made his name for himself, so it’s very important to acknowledge and underline the white contribution in his success. There’s a running gag in France about athletes from French West Indies: whenever they win something, the journalists are like “the French athlete Marie-José Pérec” and when they loose, you hear “the Martinique born Thierry Henry or the French with Sierra-Leonan roots Eunice Barber.”
In Canada, the politically correctness which reigns in the Canadian society force people to be more subtle. It isn’t in your face as in France or Belgium, but it’s damn well institutionalized and more difficult to prove and fight against. Yet, the anti-discrimination laws are enforced and if there’s something Canadian people are allergic to, it’s being called racist. Besides, in Canada, it doesn’t matter if you’re from the Caribbean, Latin America or Africa, no matter your physical features, it’s the skin color which gives you away: “not white”.
The perception of the harshness of racism from one place to another is very dependent on the number of racist encounters or experiences you had at one particular place. Then you have official reports like the ones you can read on the site of the UN OHCHR, I think that they just sum up in a nutshell a reality lots of people refuse to acknowledge.
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I forgot to add that in France, the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, Portugal and Italy, if you’re African American, you’re better welcome, treated and accepted than a local black person who speaks French, Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese or Italian. I remembered occasions when I chose to pass as an English-speaking person in some high-end stores in France and Belgium, just to be assured of a good service. I never tried to speak French though whenever I went to the UK; not sure it would have helped… au contraire
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@Mira
Thanks for informing me.
@Anna
Really? I am an African AMerican of Jamaican descend. Strange.
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@Adeen Danica Mckenzie
Are you referring to your mom bumping into a white woman in the Netherlands? If yes, I can’t speak about what went through that white woman’s head but I do know that I sometimes bump into people and get a dirty look even though I’ve just apologized. When I talked about passing off as an African American person, I meant while dealing with local people in restaurants, shops… By example, most French-speaking people in France or Belgium are unable to make the difference between an African-American, a Jamaican or a Nigerian accent. As long as you don’t wear dreadlocks, you aren’t dressed like a ragamuffin, are black and speak English, it means you’re a tourist. Who in Europe is dumb enough to treat a tourist badly?
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Re non-black racism in Europe: One commenter, Mira I think, said that racism in Europe is about not being (pure bred) French, English, German or Italian. She’s right except that a French white person with a Spanish, Italian or Hungarian last name (yeah, Mr. President, I’m talking about you) is more accepted than a black, Asian or North-African French person. The same rule applies for UK. When I was living in France, most of my friends were Asian whose parents immigrated from former French possessions in South-East Asia. Even after more than 30 years spent in France, their parents don’t speak French. Yet, they make sure that while retaining their cultural identity and values, their children do well at schools and speak French like any other white French kid. Of course, because they aren’t white, they aren’t French enough to people and they still face racism. However, they’re much more accepted and integrated than Arab and Black people. I think that the cultural stereotypes (hard-working, smart, compliant) help them flying under the radar of far-right activitists.
I wrote earlier about how in terms of racism, African people tend to suffer the most from racism. I need to recant that assertion because I do know that in Europe, “between 2 evils”, African immigrants are more tolerated than Gypsies and that in Canada, we have more rights than the First Nations (or Native American people as you say in the US). I wonder surprised if it weren’t the case in Australia too.
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I’ve heard this expressed by many french Blacks but I don’t put much credit in it. In my opinion, racism against Blacks in France is more coded but more deep-rooted than racism against North Africans. It also has a paternalistic dimension which makes it less obvious to spot than racism against North Africans, which is usually veiled under so-called cultural concerns (namely the fear of Islam).
I hate to add that I met too many french Blacks who actually take that notion (that they are better viewed by their white counterparts) as some kind of badge of honor. And too many of them share the white prejudice against the french North Africans.
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@anna:
Very often europeans tend to view black americans as americans and as such they are viewed more postively than black africans. the defining thing is nationality: those guys are americans and those are africans who knows what. same thing if a person is a britt but black, he/she is very often see as a britt first and then black where as a africans are just outsiders and black.
It is important to realise that when we talk about racism in Europe we are talking about cultural connotations, cultural concepts which are different in different countries (though the internet age has brought more monotype racist ideology for all corners of the continent). Thus in some countries black americans and britts are seen in rather positive light where as in the same countries africans are usually not.
In some countries somalis are seen negatively and there is lot of negative stereotypes against them, but at the same time other africans are seen more positively. Also these manifestations of racism are different in different parts of different countries, some being very open and rude and some others almost non ecxisting.
Also religion can be very defining factor. If you are black christian european, you are very likely accepted, but if you are black muslim from africa, you will be looked very differently. Same thing with arabs. If you are non muslim arab, christian or fully secular type, you are very likely viewed more postively than your muslim kind.
In many places of Europe if you speak local language fluently and dress as locals do, live like locals, you are more accepted. But if you speak foreign language, dress differently, behave differently, you are see as outsider. You do not belong and thus you are suspicious. This includes other whites too. Polish workers across Europe face discrimination and such everyday unless they fit in to their enviroment and do not master the local language.
In many ways racism in Europe is mixed into the xenophobia. It is not entirely systematic biological racism as it is in USA, where you can do everything and ever will be accepted because you are black and always be the Other simply because of your skin color. In Europe you may be One of Us despite of your color, if you are seen as One of Us. Also you can be expected to side with us against outsiders even if they would be the same color as you are only because you are part of Us and those others are Outsiders.
You can also be black and still be xenophobic. You may be black but just like your neighbour you are suspicious of those recent immigrants, foreigners, because they are the Other and you are One of Us.
So it is very complex issue.
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@Anna
There’s a running gag in France about athletes from French West Indies: whenever they win something, the journalists are like “the French athlete Marie-José Pérec” and when they loose, you hear “the Martinique born Thierry Henry or the French with Sierra-Leonan roots Eunice Barber.”
Interesting point you make here. I have noted and stated this about the portrayal of black athletes in the U.K i.e. when they are winning, “British athlete Linford Chrisite” but when its bad”Jamaican born Christie”. Strangely (though I was younger at the time) I dont remember this negativity for Daley Thompson but I would say that even then, this fits with what many of us have noticed happens now at times: If you are light in hue or can be presented as racially ambiguous or, if one of your parents are actually white, then there is even further capacity for that country to claim that person as ‘one of their own’, that is, their white side anyway.
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Very good testimony , Anna. Having your first hand insights , being a black African in Europe.
Ardeen, good question. I can say this, not being black, I really dont know what the black experiance really entails, so, I am the type of person with my huge afinity for black Afro diasporic culture who might say ” either way, sure I could be black..” not really understanding your refereance to the survival reality you were asking about
But I can say that my son, who is bi racial, identifies very much with his black side. I do know that if I was bi racial, I am going to be classified as black in the USA
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Sam, that is an excellent break down, your insights have been very good on understanding the European dynamic
My question would be, if any person who is phenotype black is coming to Europe, based on the testimony by people like Anna and others here and the actual reports in the news of the racism against black people , totaly understood by your break down that that is what is happening, this national , your one of us or not, shouldnt a black person still be aware that racism could affect them in Europe just because of their skin color , even in the exact context you have put it in ?
In Spain they are stopped at customs because they are Brazilian, but, they are called racial epiphets…are the racial epiphets suposed to be any less harmful because it is national ?
Same with the soccer racial epiphits, is it enough to say ” they are just soccer hooligans, thats all it is, its expected…” ? Does that diminish the affect of the racial epiphte ?
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Everything you all have said seems to indicate that is is very much something that is in the dynamic. I dont think being aware of black racism in Europe dimininshes in any way the other complex dynamics you have described here. I dont see any attemt to diminish them.
But frankly , anything you say doesnt diminish the preocupation I would feel if my black Brazilian wife or my mixed Brazilian/American son might have to go through Spain anytime soon
Do you understand that ?
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“But how much does that justify? What limits do you seek to encourage?
If you do not remember or even acknowledge others, don’t you think it shows you do not care to know other about the other realities of racism in Europe”
You have a bad habit, Bulanik, at mischaractorising my point of vewi, you do it here, you do it on other threads…I have been steadly listening, asking questions, ackowldeing the information you bring in. To portray my postion as the above, is frustrating.
I have a neice who is part Indian, part Afghanistan and part wasp.Besides a tremendous fonte of personal information of her experiances in the world, I certainly have picked up an empathy for what ever she could go through in this world
For me to speak about the Indian experiance in Europe would be quiet presumtious on my part since I dont know about it. That a complex situation could exist , is something that is obvious, I absolutly depend on the people living there or experiancing something to define it for me
I have never diminished the other forms of ethnic national discrimination but in fact you seem to be the person diminishing things that are said
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@BR:
I understand you occupation with brazilians and how they are treated sometimes in Spain, but I think the north african and african immigrants, legal and illegal, get the worst of it. I doubt your wife will be beaten up at the spanish customs. There are bi-racial kids in Spain too. But then again, I have no idea.
I am not trying to make it appear that there is no racism in Europe. There is. BUT it is a lot different situation than is USA. In USA it is systematic, it is all about race, your whole identity is based on your racial profile. Even you, anti-racist individual, are obsessed about it. In Europe, as I have tried to explain, it is much more complex. Race is not the first defining factor, it is your nationality and cultural backround. Then your skin color. As a matter of fact, you can be a black brittish football hooligan shouting racist slurs to the players on german or french team and nobody around you would think about it twice.
And here we come in to the football thing: racist slurs, name calling, everythig possible can and will be shouted at the games if it somehow makes the opposite side nervous and/or loose their cool. So their goal keeper is lowsy faggot, actually they are all faggots, niggers, rag heads, hairchests, apes, kikes, terrorists, potatoe heads, pizzaboys, maccharones, frogs, sauerkrauts, nazis, commies, traitors, fuckin foreigners etc. even if they come from the other side of the town.
One of the biggest rivalries in Brittish Isles is between Glasgow Celtics and Glasgow Rangers. Yes, they come from the same town and they hate each other, absolutely hate each other. There is chauvinistic racist tendency in this rivalry BUT it is not about biological race at all. It is about cultural identity. It is about religion. Rangers identify with the queen, UK and London. They are protestant. Celtics are celtic, catholic and identify with Ireland and celtic Scotland. Heres the catch: there are blood families divided along their support of either team. Today it is much more muted but back in 1960’s and 70’s the fans actually went to war with eachother. They had huge fights with thousands fighting on the streets. BUT was that about skin color? Racism? What?
@bulanik:
If a problem is complex, as is the racism in Europe, there is a natural attempt to simplify it. It is easier to handle if it can be disected in clear cut pieces and more understandable if it is seen black/white terms, no pun intented. Also I think if you grow up in USA where the color IS a defining factor you tend to think it is so elsewhere too. You try to see familiarities and create picture which reminds the one you are used to in order to make sense of it.
We europeans make the same mistake when we travel to the US. We tend to see what we think as “american” and draw our conclusions from that even though we are mainly reflecting our ideas of USA into the reality. Many europeans believe that USA is New York City when the reality is something totally different.
I think the same is working here. Racism is the same without any differencies, without any cultural connotations. If one has grown up in USA as black, any signs of racism bring those experiences forth. One looks out for similarities and those then enforce the preconditioned idea of what racism is. But USA is one country with its very peculiar strand of racism and racist system. In Europe we have litterally dozens of countries with their own brand and style of racism and racist traditions. What is racist behavior in one country does not exsist in another, where there is something else etc.
The complexity of european racism makes it so difficult to tackle.
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Bulanik, where did I say I forgot ? I didnt think I was under some test to say the same thing that you all had said, so I included things like ETA , that you hadnt mentioned at all, and the Irish, asking if you consider that white on white.So half the frustration on your last post is for nothing
On one of the other threads you painted me over and over as someone who didnt like Indian music, I didnt know anything about it,thought it was inferior , over and over I almost begged you to not say that because I love Indian music and know more about what they are doing than you, yet you never even ackowledged that I love Indian music
No ,Bulanik , I will let you know when you mischaractorise me
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Well, Sam, I kind of am trying to get what you are saying. Its not like there arnt heavy rivalries in the sports in the USA, where people insult each other and hate each other, but, in the most racist country on the planet, if some white crowd starts using the n word, its going to be a big reaction. It sure happens…Of course I know that North Africans are going to be under preasure, Im not sure why it seems if I mention Brazilians, I am thinking it doesnt happen to anyone else. I know North Africans are under huge preasures, but, I know the Brazilian situation intimitly, that is why I talk about it. I dont know the exact details about the North African situation. Just because I mention the Brazilian situation , doesnt mean that I dont respect or understand that North Africans are under huge preasure.I mean, most Americans have no idea of the Brazilian situation at, as a matter of fact most of you didnt either, I am anything but provincial in particpating in this discusion
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Bulanik, I just want to say, Im sorry if I have any tone in my post, I dont mean it, you are one of the most interesting posters here
You probably are raking me over the coals now in a post
but just know, you are a great poster
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…of course, Sam, maybe your point is that exactly becuase there would be a brawl if white person uses a racial epiphet at an American game that that is the differance…..dont know just asking
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..
“I’m curious about what you think of the Indian diasporic culture in Europe?
Have you of any particular views about South Asian experience of racism in Europe described so far?”
Bulanik, in eanest Id like to try to answer these quetions, I just may have misunderstood the intent
My veiws so far about what has been descibed is that, it seems they have to give up their identigy to be accepted into the country where they live. It seems like they have to be inside a rock and a hard place. It seems they have to try to assimulate and if people around them put down the ways of the people where they came from, they have to chime in also to try to be accepted
Its hard to comment about people from India in Europe, I have no information to make a valid statment. What i can say is that I am an immigrant also, so I know the beauracracy, marginalisation, humiliations , anxiety about renewing my visas,or getting deported for who knows what, so I feel that they must feel that no matter what
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@B.R
What i can say is that I am an immigrant also
Really? How so?
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Im an American living in Brazil…for 26 years
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@B.R
Aha! I see what you mean 🙂
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Demerera, I dont know if you experiance this , I dont know your situation, but, me , my wife and son, jump through the beaucracy of two countries every two or three years or so….they switched to computors now and Im not too fast
Its scary, there are a number of situations that if they happened, my family could be under enormous stress and could be seperated
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@BR;
Perhaps the club chant of the fans of Millwall FC opens the attitude of the brittish football fans better. Millwall fans were arguably the worst, or the best depending how you look at it, hooligans in the 1980’s and still are considered pretty hard core. This is their song, the one they sing at the stadiums at home and away:
No one likes us
No one likes us
No one likes us
We don’t care!
We are Millwall
Mighty Millwall
We are Millwall
From the Den!
The melody is taken from Rod Stewarts hit song Sailing.
Also the movie Football Factory is pretty accurate describtion of the fans. Some real life hooligans appear as extras in that flick.
@bulanik:
I really don’t know if it does any good. I just try to figure out why some want to simplify the situation or see it so on this side of the pond.
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@B.R
Its scary, there are a number of situations that if they happened, my family could be under enormous stress and could be seperated
This sounds awful, please, explain what you mean by this?
Yes, I have been in situations where people havent ‘accepted’ the difference between my OH and I but, him, having grown up and hung around with a diverse group of people and me, the same, we are aware of this. I guess this extends to a beaurocratic level too though clearly not as regularly as you allude to…
How does your wife cope with this? Does your son understand what is happening and have a grasp as to why? This is something OH and I have ALWAYS been insistent on with our kids, giving examples and explaining. Even in their young lives they have ‘experienced’ things though not necessarily directly…
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Demerera , Im reffering to immigration from both countries. If, I had an illness I had to go to the states , and be longer than 6 months, my wife would have to go back because she doesnt have a green card. It would be very complicated. They dont give them out right away and she cant aply from the states.
If, for some reason like I got in a fight or something , and I got deported , same situation. We could do 6 months then she would have to come back and try to aply for a green card. Same if we committed to the states and something happened that she was deported , I would have to reaply for a resident visa
On the street, Ive been yelled at and called “gringo” and” get out of my country”. Im overqualified at my work compared to the people where I live, but, Ive been marginalised, I get called for high paying situations by a couple of people that value what I have to offer
In some situations, walking down the street with my wife, people will think she is a prostitute. She is very sensitive. For 25 years we have been married and she is still very sensitive to going in public.
My son has been hit the hardest because he had to grow up going to public school with an American last name. He has heard a lot of anti American things and atitudes that are just not right. He is tenacous though, he will get in the face of anyone who mouths off.
We do talk about things as much as posible. But dont get me wrong, Brazilians are not confrontational , and it isnt violence, just vibes
Sam, funny. I think I did see that movie. Being in Brazil, we always get reports about European football, so they talk about the hooligans
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@B.R.
Aw, sorry for your situation.
What you all need to realize is that other races and nationalities have experienced racism and segregation besides Blacks. Muslims, Asians and Latinos along with the Irish, Italians and Poles have experienced racism in America in the past. American felt that the Irish, Italians, Jews, and Poles weren’t White. Hispanics had to work in the grape vines in California for long wages and low pay. Plus they had to compete with Blacks for jobs too. Whits wouldn’t accept Hispanics because they look enthic and speak Spanish. And worst of all, the Native AMericans had to go through hell with the European conqerors taking their land and killign them off.
But can we focus on Europe? What about the Irish Potato famine? Or the Black Plague that killed millions in Europe hundreds of years ago? Or about Anne Bolelyn, Queen Elizabeth’s mother that was killed by Henry VIII because she didn’t bear him a son?Or about the French Revolution, The civil war in Spain in 1936 or 1937? Or Russa, the European part turning Communist in 1917?
How come we don’t talk about these subjects? They are interesting.
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Adeen, absolutly right, I got off track. You brought up great subjects to address…I mentioned the Irish also…is the cathlic against protastant conflict fall under white on white discrimination ?
I only submited my story to point out I know what it is like to be an immigrant.So , on just that basic leval , Asians who are trying to live legaly , because we are trying to do it legaly, so that is what I know,face those issues. And, Im certain many many more complex culrural and discriminational issues , and those are the things I dont know
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Sam , one thing Id like your opinion on , and to discuss is, I find that the criticsm of the one drop rule as the concept as how America is dealing with race, is an argument I hear a lot on forums, coming from Europeans as a way of defining America and that problem. You yourself make it the center of some of your arguments about the forms people have to fill out and that only America does that.
In the light of the fact that I brought in information above that states that the one drop rule was unconstitutional in a court of law in Virginia in 1967, in a trial about an interracial couple marrying.
In the light of the fact that I brought in information that clearly shows Brazil is defining races and percentage of blood to define if a person is black or not for quotas to get into universities, and they ask what race you are on census reports,
dont these seem like arguments Europeans use aginst Americans that are not based on fact?
With all due respect to Teddy, his responced to that were weak. He brought in an informative article implying the one drop rule was in effect but I found a court case where they say it is unconstiturional therefor couldnt be used in a court of law.
Im wondering if some of the heavy hitters on here who live in the USA, ever found that the one drop rule had anything to do with the discrimination they felt at all. If that was in any way instrumental in racism they have felt.
I beleive, since I never really saw the one drop rule significanty used where I live, that the most racial discrimination in the states is straight up phenotype, how you look. If you look anyway black, you will be discriminated against . There are way too many peolple in the major population centers that have huge mixtures, the Puerto Ricans, The Cubans in Miami, Dominicans etc They are replete with huge amonts of mixture so any light skinned person just gets lost in the crowd in those places.
Is this just an argument coming from Europeans to try to define the USA with something that isnt true? Im asking in earnest, Im just taling opinion here, and I want to know what others think
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@B.R
Demerera , Im reffering to immigration from both countries. If, I had an illness I had to go to the states , and be longer than 6 months, my wife would have to go back because she doesnt have a green card. It would be very complicated. They dont give them out right away and she cant aply from the states.
Isnt that the same in a lot of countries? Many countries are clamping down on immigration and whilst I appreciate that your situation differs from the norm i.e. political refugee etc, anyone who wishes to reside in a new country of residence has to apply for a visa. As you guys are married, cant she apply for dual citizenship or something?
On the street, Ive been yelled at and called “gringo” and” get out of my country”. Im overqualified at my work compared to the people where I live, but, Ive been marginalised, I get called for high paying situations by a couple of people that value what I have to offer
You should hear the names i’ve been called – they would make your hair curl. You seem surprised by this and offended – you do realise dont you that this is just a small glimpse into what it is actually like for PoC the world over? How aware are you really of racism and the subtelties of this i.e. microagressions etc?
In some situations, walking down the street with my wife, people will think she is a prostitute. She is very sensitive. For 25 years we have been married and she is still very sensitive to going in public.
I got mistaken for an exotic dancer once, but thats another story. When you say sensitive to going out in public is it because you are an IR couple?
My son has been hit the hardest because he had to grow up going to public school with an American last name. He has heard a lot of anti American things and atitudes that are just not right. He is tenacous though, he will get in the face of anyone who mouths off.
I’m glad your son is able to stick up for himself however, be aware that in other parts of the world, regardless of whether your son is in the right or not, he will be judged as an angry ethnic who is potentially violent. I caution my own mixed race relatives on this too.
We do talk about things as much as posible. But dont get me wrong, Brazilians are not confrontational , and it isnt violence, just vibes
You were offended that you were called gringo in I presume a confrontational way – being confronted can often be a prelude to violence. Something more than just ‘vibes’ makes your wife sensitive to being out in public. It is good that you talk about things too, it really is the only way to gain an appreciation and understanding of these kind of issues.
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Thank you for your insights, Demerera
Great idea about the dual citizenship, it is on the table and we are talking about it…
Yes, I do understand that what I went through is nothing compared to what people of color face , whether immigrating or in country racism. I wasnt surprised , at being insulted, it is small incidents and I dont blame the people or the country
What I think im trying to say is, I can relate very powerfully to the problems you just described for yourself. Yes, im not feeling sorry for myself , I can relate and empathise with your feelings about what you went through, and, the racism and humiliation my wife has experianced in her own country is unmentionalble on a public blog , it is that disgusting and humiliating,you would not beleive it, that is why she is extra sensitive about anything she does in public.
That is my only reason to bring in my experiances here, so that what I say about it isnt confused with some provincial bump on a log making comments from his arm chair about things he may not know
Also its good to look at atitudes other than Europe and the USA, to define what we are talking about as far as racism. Brazil is off of everyones radar to talk about it, yet we see that it is very much a part of racism in Europe. Where a European may not think racial epiphets are incredibly bad at football games, its a huge deal when Brazilians see their idols are humiliated racialy in Europe at these football games. They have big reports and specials about it. Its against the law in Brazil to call someone a “monkey”, they can be processed for racism
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Did you know the police came on the feild at a Brazilian football game and arrested an Argentinian player for calling a black Brazilian player a monkey?
See, Demerera, we have some things in common we can relate to about immigration
Even if we got dual citizenship, isnt it a hassle to renew passports and visas for three people for two countries ?
Isnt that a huge issue for any immigrint family in Europe ? Does each country have their own laws?
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@B.R
See, Demerera, we have some things in common we can relate to about immigration
Sorry B.R – not sure what you mean here?
Even if we got dual citizenship, isnt it a hassle to renew passports and visas for three people for two countries ?
I guess you have to weigh up whether the hassle at this time is worth it in the long run in terms of how often you travel between the two countries or need to travel.
Isnt that a huge issue for any immigrint family in Europe ? Does each country have their own laws?
Yes each country does have its own laws for example, people think the laws in the U.K are too lenient and that immigrants get a better deal than citizens of the country do! The most rigorous but clear cut immigration laws seem to be that of Australian laws – they are very strict about who comes into the country.
@Bulanik
What are Irish immigration laws like – any ideas?
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@Bulanik
Re your link – very interesting and I was surprised by this statement by one of the people interviewed.
“But some believe a new attitude has emerged. “I’m beginning to believe that for the first time we’re becoming a confident people,” says Bohan. “For the first time we are beginning to believe that we have taken our place among the nations of the Earth.”
I have always seen the Irish as integral part of many nations – its surprising that they dont seem to think this.
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And I always wondered if racism will ever die if only we all got along?
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@Dahoman X
“I’ve heard this expressed by many french Blacks but I don’t put much credit in it. In my opinion, racism against Blacks in France is more coded but more deep-rooted than racism against North Africans. It also has a paternalistic dimension which makes it less obvious to spot than racism against North Africans, which is usually veiled under so-called cultural concerns (namely the fear of Islam).”
You may be onto something here but do not forget the Algerian independence war, how it went down and how it’s still a sore point for certain parts of the French society. France wasn’t as reluctant to let go of her African colonies as Algeria. The vast majority of North-African people in France are from Algeria and in the French collective unconscious, Algeria is the one that got away. French people being concerned about Islam is something which started in the 90s when the Algerian civil war kinda started to be exported in France. Before that, French people weren’t bothered by Muslim people but by the “Arabs”, i.e. people from the Maghreb. It wasn’t about the religion but the resentment towards people who had no qualms remembering them on a daily basis of the horrors done in their country until 1962.
I wrote before that even though they face racism, Asian people fly under the radar because of some cultural stereotypes attached to them. They are less in-your-face people and the same thing goes for black Africans compared to people from Maghreb. And I’m still referring to cultural stereotypes which unfortunately color most racial relationships. This is something need to be considered when I see that some groups might be more hated or less tolerated than others.
“I hate to add that I met too many french Blacks who actually take that notion (that they are better viewed by their white counterparts) as some kind of badge of honor. And too many of them share the white prejudice against the french North Africans”
Well, I don’t know who would wear as badge of honor the fact of being less prejudiced against than another group, because the key word is “prejudiced against”, right and that should be enough to not be proud of anything (maybe relieved but that’s just temporary). I for one don’t believe in stuff like sharing white prejudice against North Africans: I rely on my own personal experiences.
The African Development Bank had to relocate from Abidjan to Tunis in 2004. I used to hear a lot of black African friends complaining about how racist Tunisian people were towards the black employees of the bank. My reaction used to be: “Hush! We, black African tend to always say that North African people treat us badly. It isn’t true when it comes to Tunisia because Tunisia is the more progressive of all North African countries yadda yadda yadda”. Well, I had to go to Tunis for work purposes and to make a long story short, I ended up cussing out at people, one day, in a public square by telling them to take their country out of Africa, if they don’t like black people and intend to treat them like shit. Racism towards black people in Tunisia is a reality: it’s disgusting and it’s more unbearable because like I told those people: “dealing with racism outside my continent is one thing, but on my continent, I’ll never put up with that.” I have friends who study in Morocco and they said it’s horrible. I used to be like you to think they were sharing the white prejudice, well, after what I went through in Tunis, at the airport, in the souk, everywhere I went. The only place I was treated with respect and not contempt was at the bank and at the hotel. Do you know that when the AfDB relocated to Tunis, the Tunisian government back then had to make TV spots to tell the local population to stop harassing the bank’s employees because they used to throw stones at them with children calling them names?
I know that when we all live abroad, we’re supposedly all Africans, because hey, we’re all ostracized because we aren’t white and we’re all cousins. However, don’t be mistaken: there’s a different racial dynamics going on. When my aunt fought with her Algerian neighbor in France, the woman called her the N-word while my aunt answered back “not white enough” (“mal blanchie”). When a North-African person meets a black African person, it’s: “You, the African” so who’s sharing the white prejudice, especially when you know that they don’t all have Arabic or Turkish ancestors.
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@ Adeen
“And I always wondered if racism will ever die if only we all got along?”
I think racism will die the day every human being is able to overcome it’s fear of difference and I don’t think it’s possible. Overcoming your fears is a lifetime process. Of course, it’s easier when you aren’t plagued by all kind of stereotypes and you don’t evolve in an environment where it is considered important to pass down some generalizations about other cultures or people. In my mother tongue, by example, there are a lot of sayings about other people from different ethnic groups, it has nothing to do with skin color. It is conveyed in popular tales, jokes, insults… This sets the roots of xenophobia which leads ultimately to racism. I don’t know if it’s our animal side as human being or our survival instinct but we can’t help but categorize people in order to feel safe. There’s a lot of that in racism: feeling safe about the unknown, about our beliefs. I for one think that for racism to disappear, we have to first acknowledge that we’re somewhat racists. It’s like if you don’t acknowledge having a drinking problem, well don’t even bother going to rehab: you’ll relapse. We have to understand that someone being different from us isn’t a threat to our identity.
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@Bulanik
I was aware of some of what you wrote but not all of it – thanks once again for your informative response.
I have long since noticed what you said about the application forms – I think I have said this to you before but, I recall in the film The Commitments they said something like
“the Dubliners are the blacks of Ireland and the Irish are the blacks of Europe”. This doesnt seem to be deemed too far from the truth even today.
I didnt know the bit about them being perceived as incestuous people – I have always thought of Irish people as being ‘god fearing’ meself.
I have visted Donegal but must try to ensure that when I go back, I look at the remains of St Columba’s church
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@Bulanik
Wow you know so much about the Irish! That is amazing. i am of Jamaican descend and my mother has distant Irish ancestry although I am not Irish.
I always wondered why other Caucasians disliked the Irish.
But most of them dislike the Jews even more than Irish.
And the Irish came to America during the potato famine in the 1840s and 1850s. The Irish depended on potato for their diet and when that ran out, a lot of them died of starvation in Ireland or went to America or another country. I believe the reason why a lot of Americans didn’t like the Irish immigrants was because a lot of Caucasians in America descended from the English and the English were known for disliking the Irish. The Irish had their own distinctive culture and everything that was different from the English and American cultural ideas is why I believe that it led to their dislike of the Irish. Plus they had to compete with other Americans for jobs and I think the anti Irish sentiment got worse. But the Irish eventually blended in society and became ”White”. They are considered an enthic White group but since I am Black, I consider them White.
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@bulanik:
What is interesting in the irish question is that it shows how illogical and unreasonable racism truly is. If one puts an irishman and englishman naked front of any audience I bet no one can say for sure which one is which. They are both seen as white men. But like I said, this just shows what racism is: pure ideological fantasy, twisted for sure, but total fantasy based on nothing.
@adeen:
I believe racism will end one day. Perhaps I am not around to see it but future generations will see that time. Does its end spell the end of xenophobia and wars and violence? No, I don’t think so. But if we all, we whites particulary, educate our selves and learn and keep alert, we will turn this thing around. One day there will be no racism as we know it.
I believe that present day racist revival is a desperate spasm of that dying ideology. I believe guys like brahms, randy, destructure are just scared passangers on this sinking ship. We all know that the worlds demography guarantees that so called “pure whites” are dissapearing slowly. Whites are minority. So called races mix more and more as they should be. As it is healthy for the spieces.
It is very important to understand that there is no biological races at all. Race is a social construction. It is an idea. It is not a biological fact despite what those racists claim. What there is are biological variations and cultural differences. So you, me, abagond, bulanik and everybody else here are just humanbeings.
White racists try to deny this fact, they falsify statistics, science, anything, but the truth is that brahms is biologically closer to you than you are to any african. This is the very thought those guys are so scared of. That is why they promote and advocate their ideology. They fear their own humanity. They are scared to be humanbeings. That would make them nothing special and since their selfconfidence hangs on the fact that they are white, they have to make that something special. It is not, but they have to see it that way because without that, they are no different from you or anybody else. And that is all they have, a colorless skin.
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@Bulanik
Incidentally, have also ever noticed that this particular British-Irish dynamic is probably seen as an “insightful” example of the triumph of a colonized people, but the same standard doesn’t apply to Africans?
The same is thought of the Pakistani/Indian nations too.
I guess it comes down to the fact that PoC are not as willing to ‘sacrifice’ their cultural background in the attempt to assimilate as perhaps in this instance ‘Irish’ people can and do?
Perhaps this is too simplistic an example? After all, I know many Italians who wear their cultural heritage as a badge of honour and pride i.e. knowing how to speak the language, the food which is always a big part of Italian culture, reverence for the Church and other traditions.
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@demerera:
But then again, in Italy it is the regions that count. If you are napolitano, you will never accept identity of tuscanan or venetians would never consider themselves the same as puglians. Even in L’america italians grouped according to their regions: sicilians with sicilians, calabrians among calabrians, napolitans with napolitans.
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@ Anna
I’m late and the thread moved on, but I wanted to reply to your last post.
What I was referring to was French citizen of African descent validating the stereotypes regarding “les Arabes” in private conversations. What makes me think those french Blacks are deluding themselves is the fact that those stereotypes are the very same stereotypes that the rest of the French population attributes to… “les Noirs et les Arabes”.
I’m not naive about anti-Black racism in North Africa, but I don’t think it determines how some french Blacks view North Africans in France.
By the way, what is the correct wording? French Black? Black French? Should the adjective be capitalized? In french the most commonly used denomination is “les Français d’origine africaine”. In everyday life people also use “les Noirs de France”, but this one also includes West Indians (from Martinique and Guadeloupe).
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@Sam
But then again, in Italy it is the regions that count. If you are napolitano, you will never accept identity of tuscanan or venetians would never consider themselves the same as puglians. Even in L’america italians grouped according to their regions: sicilians with sicilians, calabrians among calabrians, napolitans with napolitans.
Really? I never knew this. In the town where I am from there are several families of Italians and they ‘seemed’ to stick firmly together but, to be fair, I dont know many of them personally any more – it was just the sense I got and what they kinda suggested themselves.
One thing I did notice was their desire for BW but how also conflicted they were about this. Many wanted a BW on the side!!! but none of them were ‘brave’ enough to actually ‘date’ a BW. In fact, though most ‘integrated’ and dated English girls, their families still seemed to want them to date Italian!
Do you think this is still widely the case? Is it to do with preservation or tradition here?
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@Sam
”but the truth is that brahms is biologically closer to you than you are to any african”
How is that true? I just want racism to end?
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“Anna,
I know that when we all live abroad, we’re supposedly all Africans, because hey, we’re all ostracized because we aren’t white and we’re all cousins.”
Linda says,
You are so on point with this line. If I had to sum up the difference between Europe and USA, it would be this:
The USA is the great divider and Europe brings together groups of people who would not be on the same side otherwise.
The ethnic and colour prejudice in Africa is ridiculous but imagine: in the USA, north Africans such as Egyptians are classified as “white” on US census, but in Europe (and I assume elsewhere), they are not considered white.
When I first arrived in Germany, my German classmates would “warn” me against going to certain areas where the Turkish people lived. I was told to be careful because the Turks are dirty, lazy, and would steal from me because they have criminal tendencies (sounds familiar black Americans)…
When I first arrived in USA, my white American co-workers, would try to tell me that I was “better” than black Americans because I spoke perfect English and Caribbean people have better work ethics, etc, etc, bs, bs, bs…
I could only imagine what the non-black foreigners are told by white Americans, as it is, almost every immigrant group believes they are “better” than black Americans because they buy into white American racial prejudices.
In the US, Latinos think they are white or just “better” than black Americans and Africans but in Europe, Latinos are considered either black, non-white, or “dark” white people who are not the same as white Europeans…so basically, the Spanish-speakers in my University were in the same boat as me when the locals (Germans) were in their “anti-foreigner” moods.
same BS, different countries and a different sets of people subjected to that countries xenophobia and prejudices.
Til this day, my best friend is Turkish…in America, she would have been classified as “white” and we might not have gotten very close….the prejudice she faced in Germany was ridiculous and that’s what pulled us together.
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@Bulanik
Some were yes, but not all, or even most.
I can definately attest to this as this is the situation in my immediate family – A double dose of Celtic blood
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“Bulanik,
Firstly, I’m curious to know what you mean when you say you are Jamaican-descended? I ask because I always think of “Jamaicans” as a variety of ethnic groups, and more of a nationality than anything else. In my own life, I’ve been closer to people of Asian descent who are of Jamaican nationality.
Bulanik, I wanted to respond even though question is for Adeen.
In the US, immigrant groups have a tendency to hang on to National identity, so if someone asks a “chinese Jamaican” what they are (in reference to why they have an accent normally associated with black Jamaicans), most likely they will respond, “I’m Jamaican” like Sean Paul, who comes from a mixed background.
Italien-Americans do this and many white Americans love to tell you all the nationalities they are made of (if they know) “I’m Irish, Scott, German, Russian, Native American” etc…
1st & sometimes 2nd generation immigrants will hold on to cultural identity and heritage…but by 3rd generation, language will be lost and future generations will become “Americanized” and only speak English…
I am not sure if this tendency to hang on to National identity is a response due to strong “Anti-immigrant” sentiment in US
it probably also depends on the area/city you live in…if the area is mostly American, the pressure to not associate with your parents Nationality is probably strong, so children assimilate quickly so they don’t stand out.
but in a community with a large immigrant population, the children of immigrants don’t feel the pressure to assimilate and cultural traditions are maintained.
My children and their friends from South American will identify themselves based on their immigrant parent’s country of origin, so my children call themselves “Jamaican” or “Caribbean-American”
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@adeen:
“@Sam
”but the truth is that brahms is biologically closer to you than you are to any african”
How is that true? I just want racism to end?”
The origins of humankind is Africa. All of us originated from Africa. First people came from that continent some hundreds fo years ago and they were the other human race, the neaderthals. They disappeared some 20 000 years ago and nobody knows what happened to them. BUT every other humanbeing is direct descedant from the people who left Africa some 80 – 70 000 years ago, There were perhaps two later impulses after that but all the humanbeings are the children of these.
What ever genetic differences these people have today are what those relatively small groups of humanbeings had originally. The vast majority of humanbeings stayed in Arica for millenias and there the diversity grew more complex and multiple. It was only very much later when the people outside the African continent out grew the population of that continent. So for the most of the time in human history, majority of humanbeings were in Africa and only minority outside of it, actually the ice ages almost wiped out the whole human population in this planet.
This means that every chinese, european and american are the children of those few thousand wanderers who left Africa some tens of thousands of years ago. The genes of all of us come from those. In Africa there were more population groups from the beginning and there are them today. Genetic variations between different africans are wider and more complex than between say chinese and europeans.
There is an excellent book Out of Eden in which they explain this more scientifically. I forgot the author but will check him up when I have the chance. Hope this answer helps you.
And we will get rid of racism one day. Just keep up the fight, learn and educate those who are ignorant. Be proud of yourself and who you are. Be alert, stay brave and oppose racism everywhere at all times. You don’t have to over the top, or stage demonstrations or anything like that. It is enough to say No when ever you come across it.
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@demerera:
I am not italian american so I can not say for sure but at least back in 80’s in NYC italians were proud of their heritage.
There has been a strong tradition in Italy not to marry outsiders or foreigners, “others”. One finnish woman told me back in 80’s how her mother in law refused to talk to her even after the weddings and called her whore or a slut as in “Tell that whore that she should use less salt next time” etc. She spoke to her via third person. Eventually the couple was forced to move from the south to the north just to live.
I have no idea if this is still going on. I assume things have changed.
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@sam
I have no idea if this is still going on. I assume things have changed.
There are still some people with a strong desire to see their children “with their own kind”. I have known people, even family, who have been rejected by someone’s family because they didn’t quite fit a specific racial mold. These were occurences in the 2000s, pre 2010. There is even a youtube video of a beautiful couple, a wife Black, a husband Siehk (spelling may be off) and the back story is that the mother of the husband HATES that her son chose to marry a black woman. Even when they were expecting a child the mother of the husband teared apart the picture of the baby growing inside the wife. Sometimes that sort of behavior just sticks on people.
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@Linda
I am proud of my Jamaican heritage. I hang onto my heritage from Jamaica because although I was born in New York, my parents were born in Jamaica and I have more ancestral and cultural ties to Jamaica than I do to America. So I kind of see myself as Jamerican, as they call it or an ”African American” of Jamaican descent. I used to live in New York and my area was full of people whose parents were from the Caribbean like mine and had Caribbean heritage.
@Bulanik
Thanks for the information.Yeah most of my distant Irish ancestry is mostly from intermarriage more than anything.
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“Adeen Danica Mckenzie
@Linda
I am proud of my Jamaican heritage”
As you should be, chica 🙂
You come from a small nation of hardworking people, “we likkle but wi tallewah”
Hold up your head and stay the course that your parents set for you. Finish your books and all good things will come in time.
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Well, black is not bad, but it is so often seen as the opposite of white, as such proclaiming to be a proud negress, is less likely to contribute to dichotomy and hostility, than the claim to be a proud black woman.
Saint Nicholas for instance, is an example of a saint traditionally depicted with a very dark skin color (hair type and nose NOT typically African, but that dark of skin you have to point that out). In more recent centuries, he was depicted whiter and whiter, to the degree that “black” people celebrating the eve of his name day, think of him as a so-called white person.
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@bulanik:
Well, the black madonna is usually explained as Sara, the servant girl of Mary of Magdalene BUT heres the catch: the black madonna can also be and is in various traditions Mary of Magdala herself.
Why would Mary be black? Actually she is often depicted wearing black robe with or without a red clothes. This goes to the hidden tradition of christianity itself.
In the first congregations, churches women could be and were priests AND bishops and they used to wear red robes. You can still see them on cardinals in the church of Rome. Women held this position untill 3rd century at least but after that they were banned. Thus woman in red became a symbol of woman doing something forbidden, and in few centuries woman in red became a harlot, a sinner, a prostitute.
As for the color black and a woman: there was very old concept of wisdom and knowledge in the times of antiques that there were two of these. There was the rational intelligence, rational knowledge and wisodm, active and masculine side of human intelligence which was connetced to the light, to the white. BUT there was older wisdom, wordless knowledge, intuitive and deeper in the soul and that was Sofia, female wisdom, female knowledge. This knowledge was from the time before the light, it was from darkness, thus the color of this wisdom was black.
If we look at the images of the two Marys, Mary of Magdalene and Mary the Holy Mother, both are very often depicted wearing black. Virgin Mary might be wearing light blue and black, Mary of Magdala often red with black. Out of these two it was Mary of Magdala who was more prominent in the life of Jesus. Actually there is a strong tradition that she was his wife, for the original word used to describe their relationship translates as companion but mean companion who shares the bed, that is a wife.
Not only this was blasphemy for the misogynist church fathers who wanted to erase her from the story, it still is for many. Why they wanted to get rid of Mary of Magdala? Because she was, as she is called in many texts, the apostole of the apostoles. She knew more intimately than anyone else what Jesus was teaching and what he really meant, and also she had the Sofia, the female knowledge as a woman, and that made her extremely powerful.
In order to put her down they had to change what she represented. She became a sinner, she was a harlot, a woman in red AND also a woman in black. The message of that black robe, black color, which originally was a signal for deeper and older wisdom and knowledge, had to be negated. Thus, in time the color black became the color of death, end, emptyness, void, nothingness, anything negative. From being a color of quiet wisdom, deep knowledge and feminine soul, it became The Negative as opposite of White, the Light, the reason of masculinity.
This, I belive, is the history of the color black in west and why and how it became a negative, bad etc.
As for the black death, the name came from the black blue boils and spots which the disease caused. But of course, that name carried all the negative connotations from the Black of Mary of Magdala.
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@bulanik:
Also, check out the egyptian statues of Osiris and his mother. Notice something??
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@Bulanik
I hear many of the people of Montserrat have Irish ancestors, I used to hear that was the reason there’s a black population with lots of Irish catholic names. The same happened on Barbados and Jamaica.
Though my heritage is from neither of these Islands I can most definately believe it.
Monstserrat is the only Island in the Caribbean and outside of Europe to celebrate St Patricks day due to the influx of indentured slaves sent there by Cromwell.
Tell me, Demerera, have you found that the Irish people you know refer to themselves as Celts or as Hibernians?
Celts most definately 🙂
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@Bulanik, that Saint Nicholas, yes.
http://www.sint.nl/html/history/oudstegezicht.html
(Really, this site reports that they used to call him Black Saint Nicholas in Bari, but it attributes the blackness of Saint Nicholas to the use of dark flesh shades in Byzantine art and darkening with age), using old statues and icons as documentation could lead to a tradition of depicting him as a darkskinned person. Sure, but using as counterevidence for his blackness a statement by the 8th century bishop Theore of Myra, that they had a statue of him, made during the life of Saint Nicholas himself, with his hair white with age and blushing, though I do agree that blushing is easier to do on a painted statue of a lightskinned person, it is not unique for NYR’s.)
This seems to be a best guess about what he really looked like, do you think he could have passed for black in Jim Crow-land?
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@ Bulanik, that Saint Nicholas, indeed. Though that tradition may have started with copying from art of which the flesh tones had darkened with age, there has indeed been a tradition of depicting Saint Nicholas as a relatively dark skinned person.
http://www.stnicholascenter.org/pages/bari-images/
The icon from 1327 and San Nicola “Nero” are good examples.
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Oh, sorry for answering twice.
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@Bulanik
Well well well, the Irish do appear to be the ‘Blacks’ of Europe for true. I was aware of this but love how you put it here so succinctly and so easy to digest 🙂
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@Bulanik
How come they are closer to the African and Mediterrean people when most of the Irish people I know and see have very pale skin, bluish greenish eyes and brown, blond or whatever straight hair.They look White to me. Is it because of their DNA? If it is, explain to me, more?
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Adeen, “Spain, Portugal, Scandinavia and North Africa.” sounds pretty white -looking to me.
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@ Bulanik,
Wow, I actually wanted to ask about the Moors and how that figured into things…but I didn’t think I’d get the answer here. Very in depth response and I appreciate it!
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@bulanik:
The Moors of the middle ages might well have been a mixed people because the name Moor was implying also a muslim, perhaps a black muslim. However the moors are much older people than islamic age.
In his book Annals of the Roman Empire, Tacitus tells us about a nubian Tacfarinas who rose in revolt against the romans in their province of Africa, around present day Tunisia and Libya. Tacitus does not apply anything negative to the fact that this man is nubian, unquestionably black african, but to him he is just one enemy fighting the romans, just like Arminius the german or anybody else. Tacfarinas is also very capable and good soldier and worthy enemy in Tacitus eyes so we see no negative racist attitude here, which is remarkable and tells us that the romans did not cathegoprize people by the color of their skin so much as who was roman and who was not.
According to Tacitus this Tacfarinas gathered a mixed force under him and these were vagabonds and deserters, BUT also the mighty tribe of musulams, this is centuries before muslims or islam! Musulams lived on the edge of the great desert which we may assume means Sahara proper and were uncivilized, that is nomadic, “still at that time”. So they became later civilized in roman eyes, we may assume.
Tacfarinas was also joined by the tribe of the moors. Tacitus names their leader as Mazippa and emphasises that the moors were independent people who were under their own leader and joined Tacfarinas only because the musulams were doing so. But once again, as in the case of musulams or Tacfarinas, Tacitus does not mention the color of the moors or bring that up in any way. We may assume that these moors might have been black, since they lived beyond or along side with the musulams, and we may also assume that both of these tribes were neighbors of the nubians, who were definetly black africans.
This happened according to Tacitus around year 17 AD and for what I know this is also the first or one of the first times that the moors are mentioned in any litteral source. What is striking is that Tacitus s not even mention the color of the skin of these people, like it does not have any meaning to him. Nor he tells anything about the physical attributes of the armenians, parthians etc. That does not have any meaning for him. The race, as we know it, has no signifigance for Tacitus, but the “nationality” does. There are the romans and the Others, and the latter include the blond germans, red haired britts, dacians, trachians, parthians, egyptians, the moors etc.
So we may assume that the moors were pretty much around at least 2000 years ago and living in northern parts of Africa, fighting romans etc. They had leader which means that in roman eyes they were organized people who had some choesion and their own separate status as people. But Tacitus does not say where these people black as we migh understand it. That does not mean they were not. It means that for Tacitus that was not important and that is very important thing to notice: it seems that for the romans the color of the skin was not that much of an issue but your nationality/ethnicity was. It was more important to notice a german who was not a roman than the color of the skind of any africans, including the moors, musulams or Tacfarinas the Nubian.
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@Bulanik, not really. If you are not trained to think in color-coded race concepts, not doing so is the normal state, sure there is an initial shock when confronted with people who are really looking different, but apart from that they are just more foreigners, with interesting foreign customs.
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@Bulanik
Thanks my mother considers herself Black though.
And I believe that Whites descended from Blacks, who were the original man and they went to Europe because the climate is colder there. The Caucasians wouldn’t get sunburned there either and it was better for their skin. And Africa is a better climate for Blacks like me.
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@ Bulanik, I reacted to “It is so hard for us modern people to fully comprehend that the ideas about colour and black inferiority is relatively new.” It is not, not if most of the history you were taught in school is about the periods before the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. Not if your history classes paid attention to the history of racist thinking.
“Moors” are not always the same people, as the people known as “Moors” at the time were selling Negro slaves to Europeans, the name “Moor” got stuck on those poor slaves as well, and by extension to every Negro. Be very careful when encountering that word, you do not know at first glance what it tells you.
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Fascinating information there, Sam.
One thing I wonder about looking back thousands of years to see if people had racist breakdowns , if there was an astoriod that hit the planet or earth crust displacement and we had huge disastors that wiped out our civilisations, in a thousand years they are going to look around in the territory of the USA and maybe find the declaration of independance and see that it sais ” all men are created qual”, and they arnt going to really be able to find out the racist literatture
Isnt there a posibility that that is what is happening with history now? An early poster here , J said that there is Hebrew texts that say a woman shouldnt marry a darker hebrew.
Im just wondering about that since in a thousand years , I wonder how much indication of racism in the USA will actualy be visible in the ruins ?
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@Bulanik, Sam pointed out obvious stuff about the Classic period, you claim that it is so hard to fully comprehend that the racist ideas of our period are only recent concepts, and I say that it is not really hard, and I point to the processes in Modern History which more or less made those ideas come into being.
Ánd yes, people grouping all Moors together is a pet peeve of mine, but one that is NOT limited to Modern History.
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And here is something that is obvious , an Argentine football player is arrested on the feild , in Brazil,for making a racist epiphet
And Brazilian players are subjected to racist epiphets in various European games all over Europe.Russia, Italy, Spain etc
Sam sais it is just ruff housing hooligans who hate everyone
what do you say, Bulanik ? Where does nationality trump racism against blacks in this instance?
I think its blatently a thing to examine in full about European atitudes towards blacks. Brazilians think its blatently big to hear those stories about their idols
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Also, I dont see what is the problem with examining the dog excrement that is white racist atitudes against blacks in Europe.
It doesnt cancel out bias based on nationality at all. What is wrong with focusing on white racism against blacks in Europe? It obviously exists in the institutions in news reports in personal anecdotes.There is something to look at.
Great if nationality is even a bigger factor, that is great, but that doent mean we cant look at white racism against blacks in Europe on its own.
It reminds me on the other threads, we cant talk about white people shooting unarmed black people without someone saying oh but black on black crime is much more.
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@ Bulanik, why are Moors grouped together? Because they are all called Moors of course, even though they may have less in common with eachother than with the people doing the calling.
At least in a country notorious for its disinterest in history, where religious conflicts make the understanding of the clash of cultures in which the Bible came to be really important, classic history is the better known, and the part you can discuss without insulting people.
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@B.R.
“What is wrong with focusing on white racism against blacks in Europe?”
1) Because hardly any European racist limits his racism to the people Americans consider as black. As such it is too limited.
2) Europe is incredibly diverse, if you say that racism works the same in Brazil as in the United States, I take your word for it, but in Europe every country is a case apart, understanding the French situation does not mean that you start to comprehend the Italian one or the British or the Swiss or the Russian.
3) Blacks may or may not exist in the perception of Europeans as a group. If the newspaper tells you about Nigerian and Moroccan criminals, instead of black or African ones, you may be nice to Kenyans and darkskinned US citizens, while barricading the doors when a Moroccan enters the street.
What a black person with American privileges experiences as a racism free paradise, may be racist hell to somebody from Sudan.
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@B.R
what do you say, Bulanik ? Where does nationality trump racism against blacks in this instance?
I think caution is called for here B.R 🙂 . NO ONE is saying that this is a competition, a game where one nation is better than the other. I got the feeling you felt this from some of your responses but I had hoped that subsequent posts clarified this for you.
All that has been said and is being said still is that it is the Same, but different i.e. same difference and this various from how it manifests itself and as to the ‘type’ of racism that people are on the receiving end of.
You yourself have made several comments about Brazil and aspects of racism you have experienced there so your example
And here is something that is obvious , an Argentine football player is arrested on the feild , in Brazil,for making a racist epiphet
doesnt cancel out the fact that you, your wife and son have been on the receiving end of ‘other’ kinds of racism does it?
Some may say for example that the racism in the UK is more covert OR has been stated on here, varies in different countries and is more nationalistic. Nevertheless it is STILL there – it does exist. Comparitively racism in the US seems to be much more overt – does this mean that it is more ‘real’ than the racism in Europe or that European PoC cannot understand what their American Cousins are suffering? I think not.
This has the danger of becoming a my racism’s worse than you’re racism kind of game, and when we start getting immersed in this the real crux of the matter gets lost IMO.
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Wow, you all think I said racism is the same in Brazil as the United States ? haha Maybe you all need to get out a little
Brazilian whites scream all the same stuff you all do ” the USA is under the one drop rule ( sorry Teddy your answer was not satisfactory about the constututional law in Viginia saying you could ,not use the one drop rule in a court of law), ” its class not racism” and they fight University quotas even though its the law now.
The truth is, if hadnt brought these reports in that only I could have seen in Brazil, none of you would have batted an eye. My insight is very valuable to this discusion exactly because I have gotten out a lot, toured Europe 4 times and was able to see anecdotaly black profiling up close, live in a country with very differant racism than the USA, so you are wrong to think I dont understand what differant means. What I can understand too is, thanks for all the very good information and discusion that I have paid attention to, and, Im smart enough and well traveled enough how to be careful out there traveling with my wife and kid and how the realities Ive experianced and the realities of valid reports Ive read about in various countries will inform my desician of how I will deal with it.
Bulanik, competition ? defensive? I have no bet on this race, where on earth would you get that I did. Its you that can barly address the points I bring in which are hardly provincial American only points of veiw, you are one of the most interesting smart intelligent informative posters on here , but , you arnt very good at charactorising me, for sure you have consistatnly missed the boat with me…..smile….
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So , I mean really, the fact that Teddy’s “(implying I said)Brazil’s racism is like the USA” is all wrong, that means half of your comments dimminishing the validity of what Im saying is off the table…
I also find the statements most of you are making are totaly dependent on bouncing it off what American racism is ( another major reason my Brazilian experiances are extremly valuable to this discusion, yet you cant even aclowledge that) , which I am not convinced you all really know any better than what I know about Europe. You cant talk about dynamics in the United States today of ethnic, racial and religious groups wth out including the Hispanic dynamic. Sorry , for me the one drop thing doent commute, is it like what Im saying about Europe doesnt commute with you all?
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@B.R
Wow, you all think I said racism is the same in Brazil as the United States ? haha Maybe you all need to get out a little
!
Is this really what is being said B.R? Is anyone trying to diminish ANY kind/experiences of racism wherever they are or whomever it is aimed at? Honestly?
Brazilian whites scream all the same stuff you all do ” the USA is under the one drop rule
I’m sorry, but it is YOU who continually brings this up in conversation and as far as I can see, people respond to this, not the other way round.
I also find the statements most of you are making are totaly dependent on bouncing it off what American racism is
This is called ‘finding a common ground’ or in some cases ‘the wisdom of experience’. My goodness B.R this almost sounds like you are saying that unless people in the U.S point it out, people in Europe can’t see/feel it.
Would you prefer commenters to detail every single painful, frustrating, humiliating, enraging incidence of racism that they have experienced? Would
this suit you so that you can make ‘comparisons’ and decide whether or not it ‘matches up’ to your ideas and expectations of racism!!!!
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@bulanik:
I think the moors of Tacitus gave the name for the people later called moors by europeans during later ages. Also, after the arab invasions of northern Africa, the name moor became mean the muslim people, even if originally it meant more african people who lived somewhere in northern parts of Africa during roman times.
@teddy:
I’m not sure I understud your question but I try to clarify my thinking. I believe that racism as we know it is quite recent phenomena. In acient times, Rome and before that, race as we understand it, was non existing. This doesn’t mean that people did not notice if and when someone was different color. BUT in the times of antiques the color of the skin was not automatically defining thing. Meaning you could be what we call black and yet have no negative image, as you could be a white person by our undertanding and have a lots of negativeimages associated into you.
If we look at how the romans talk about the people beyond the scythians, finns for example, we are so rotten people that we are ruled by women (terrible idea for romans), we live on meat only, leave our children on ground and basically are just beasts. BUT when ever the romans talk about nubians, black africans, there is nothing negative associated on them.
So the romans, who were closest thing to nazis in those times (Julius Caesar killed some one million gauls and bragged about it, saying that most of them were women, children and elderly), did not associate negative meanings automatically to any color of the skin. Even in the medieval times there were stories and ballads of black moors who were noble and knighty, courageous soldiers and warrior who had their honorable codes etc. Even in tales of king Arthur the troubadours included one black knight among the knights of the round table, that means that even in 1100’s it was consivable that there is a black person who is worthy enough to be among the best knights of the world and who posesses all those qualities which are requiered from those knights.
The sift begins to appear somewhere in 1500’s and 1600’s. Daniel Defoes Robison Crusoe comes to mind here. In the 1700’s racism as we know it begins to appear in writings and as ideas, and become more and more canonized and cohesive. Trough the repeptiton and developing media the idea of racism is spread more and more widely and eventually becomes something of a official canon. Also scientists become involved in developing the theories of races and their hierarchial system from that time on.
So historically racism as we know it is relatively young phenomena. That is all I am saying. This also tells me that it is not something written on a stone or something that is “natural” for humanbeings.
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Well, without race, it is not racism, of course. But except for that the difference discriminated on is religion rather than race, it is often identical. To avoid confusion I would never call discrimination on any ground but race racism.
The genocide examples you mention are already mixed forms of racism at best. The other is based on a mix of race and religion, in which religion seems to be dominant determining factor, the genocide against Roma and Sinti is a much better example of European racism.
Reasons to fear the Muslims: Overrepresentation of some Muslim groups among small, but visible criminals. Ottoman Empire. Reconquista. Saudi Arabia. 9/11. The reintroduction of religion in political arenas were it was gone. Foreigners getting power in one’s country. Terrorism. A couple of murderers. Propaganda by people who profit from the idea of a hostile islam. History which shows Muslims as an untrustworthy ally at best. Greek-Turkish conflicts.Iran. The long war…
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The clash of cultures I talked about was the Roman Empire, to understand the cultures the New Testament was written in and for, one has to study that period rather well. As long as Christianity remains a shaping power of society, study of its roots, the mundane ones too, stays important.
What is the crucifiction of Christ to us, if we do fail to understand the mind of the people who crucified him and thousands of others?
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B.R. I’ll rephrase what I said. I don’t know about American countries, but in Europe different countries are different, and there are a lot of them.
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That makes sence, Teddy.When I toured Europe first, it was the mid 80’s about the time Sam sais he was in the states (by the way, the states and Europe has changed a lot since then) , and it was very apherant that it was a lot of countries with differant customs, and languages. I can get that.
Demerera, its funny, Ive been following the conversation, listening a lot, absorbing a lot, asking questions, some dont get anwered.Ive learned a lot, and acnkowledged that.The fact that I can bring to the table facts about a huge country like Brazil, that have large ramifications for Brazilians and how they see themselves perceived,with actual racial epiphets involved in various of these scenarios, has absolutly nothing to do with some ego of who brought it in. Its extremly relevant information that relates very powerfuly to the theme of this thread. By all the information passed on this thread, the fact that its the nationality of Brazilians ( yes , of course with the other ethnic groups that have been immediatly brought up as though that nulifies what Im saying, its not a competition as far as I am concerned) is in line with much discussed here, but, racial epiphets, in many cases coming from authorities is worth looking at if it is a reality.
And, some questions Ive asked, I havent gotten the deepest of answers, like, I know , and can link Im sure, that the Brazilian police went on the feild at the end of the game and arrested an Argentinian player for calling a Brazilian player a “monkey”. Sam, who, by the way, I have immense respect for and always listen to his points of veiw on history, has tried to asure me its just hooligans who would use the most dirty thing they could to badger the oponent.Im not sure that is a satisfactory answer . Im more interested if you think is Brazil more enlightened for having those laws on the books ? You know that the World Cup will be there , that puts things in even more of an interesting perspective. Its absolutly relevant to get a perspective on what Brazilians are perceived of and experiancing in Europe.
I never ever dimininshed what Bulanik was saying…I listened…I asked questions….she likes to rap my knuckles….she really gets my dobber up..
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@Bulanik
To keep it clear when my mother was born, she was White looking but tanned up a bit. She doesn’t resemble her parents or look like them because they are dark and she is much lighter and she has different facial features. She has distant Irish ancestry. She grew up a very light skinned Black woman and it wasn’t recently until she darken up .
I know she has some White ancestry including Irish and I don’t know if she is half White/mixed.
My mother is considered Black in America although she is the color of many mulattos. lol, my mother said that even if her father were White, she would see herself as Black. My mother is proud of her Black Jamacian roots.
And I believe that a lot of wars and debates in Europe were caused by Christians.
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i mean christianity. I mean.
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“Why does Europe, as a socio-political entity, feel the need to mark such imagined boundaries between the Islamic culture and what some refer to as ‘the Western civilization’.
(That’s not really a question.)”
What are the boundaries between Islamic culture and topless girls on the beaches of Spain and the South of France ?
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@BR: Nudity is a huge taboo in Ireland too and in many mainly catholic countries. It is so even in USA, the biggest christian country in the world. So islam is not the only religion which has animosity to the nudity.
@bulanik: Out of respcet of some christians here I do not whish get in to a debate of religion in general, but I think the “christian west” vs “islamic east” is part of the christian propaganda in Europe. France is the most vocal opponent for turkish membership in EU and France is catholic country, even with its huge muslim population. Barroso, the head of the European comission, is from Portugal, catholic also. For many chirches in Europe islam is opponent, another, the Other, which is not Us. So islam must be kept in check.
Islam vs. west is also handy for many in the elite as a tool to govern. Remember what Goerge Bush Jr said famously after 911? “If you are not with us, then you are against us.” Them vs Us, We and the Other. Enemy. What was that the romans did? Conquer and divide. Right. It is either my way or the highway, black or white, good vs evil etc.
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Sam you are absolutly correct , and, that would be my point, Christion cultural morals have no business dictating what the political moral cultural boundries should be. Look how incredibley messed up America is because of the Christion up tight consertive right wing.
No religion should be a factor in determining the cultura sociall political direction of a country
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@ Sam,
I’ve noticed that France has always had a xenophobic reputation. Islam is often treated like something a “foreigner” belongs to.
Islam has often been treated like an untrustworthy, religion for a very long time. I remember reading that it was false rumors of unholy crimes and rituals that were created about the foreign religion which drove people to join the Crusades. The attempt to equate Muslim and foreigner with terrorist is a modern version of that.
@ B.R.
My family has spent a lot of time in Brazil. I know that in my father’s experiences (I was too young to personally remember), Brazil was not an extremely enlightened country in regards to race. They kept a lot of the racist views that European occupiers had, much like Argentina did. He had to deal with a lot of men who thought it was normal for people with dark skin or different hair to be quarantined to “favelas” or “bairros africanos”, hidden from the tourists or rich folk. A lot of the racism is cosmetic, because of the attempt to breed out black and indigenous ancestry.
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Ace, Im really interested in what you said about your family, wish we could compare notes, and I totaly hear what you are saying.
Brazil is an enormous country, and, they are a wonderful example to hold up against the USA and Europe as just another example that is “differant” that has intrinsic racist problems.
The white Brazilians are in a huge state of denial, and they dont want to think they should be like the USA ( and Im not saying they should, but they should acnowledge the racism that plagues their country.They say many things Ive heard on here in this Europe racist thread,interestingly enough.
My wife , from age 12 to 17, pretty much worked as a slave,
The fact they seem to encounter a national identity in Europe that gets called racial epiphets makes it extremly relevant to this discusion.
If on the open thread or the Miles Davis thread, you would like to share some of your Brazilian experiances ( if I can absorb Bulanik’s insistance on brining in Indian musicans when we are taling about a black American artist using Afro diasopric concepts, Im sure I can tie in your Brazilian insights into that thread also), I would love to know.
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By the way, Ace, you have been making some really potent posts on this blog, you have said things way before I could put it together, and much better than I could, congradulations
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@ B.R.,
Well the interesting thing about Brazil is that it kept a lot of the racial problems even after it was allowed to self-govern. Many people see the “mixed looking men and women”, but don’t see the reasons behind why that is so common. It’s not the “rainbow coalition” people would love to hope it is. I always thought that the situations in Brazil and Argentina were both examples of how European racism has left it’s affects on the countries they colonized (or dominated in one way or another).
Wow, that’s got to be an experience in itself. if it is okay with you, I would like to read more of your wife’s experiences, because that can be a perfect example of how poverty and race are intrinsically tied together in Brazil.
I’d be happy to share my experiences, not only in Brazil, but also in South/Central America and the Caribbean. It’s pretty complex in terms of racism, it’s so different from U.S. racism and yet so very similar. It’s the same outcome, different way of reaching it, I suppose. If you want, I can definitely post it on the open thread or Miles Davis, no problem.
Also, thank you for the compliment. I am trying to keep up with the other posters here in terms of quality and relevance.
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@bulanik:
I don’t know how this look all over the place but I think this is a problem that has developed (or resufaced) only after WW2. In Finland we have had a muslim minority since late 1800’s and many of these muslim have done extremely well and were famous tradesmen and shopkeepers. In Helsinki there were several very high quality fur and carpet shops owed by these muslims with their names openly displayed in the very center of Helsinki City. I never heard any complains or anything negative about them when I was growing up. Islam became negative only very recently, say from the late 80’s and particulary from early 90’s on when we got thousands of somalis and middle eastern refugees in very short period of time. These new comers did not fit in without difficulties nor they accepted the mosques of those who had been here before. They demanded their own and also did not want to fit in. This created a lot of animosity via all sorts of problems between the new comers and the locals.
For some reason I have been detecting similar development in various other european countries and I been wondering if this is because the extremists on both sides benefit from this polarisation. I think that may be it: islam has been hijacked by various extremists at least in public and the christian “white” europeans are blowing their horns too.
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@B.R
Demerera, its funny, Ive been following the conversation, listening a lot, absorbing a lot, asking questions, some dont get anwered.
I think B.R people are answering in the best way they can but it seems that it doesn’t satisfy you. I have to say that sometimes your comments leave me confused – one minute you maintain that your wife is treated appallingly in her own country, the same for your son, the next you seem to be promoting Brazil as the forerunner for racial issues in football!
You talk about the fact that you have toured Europe 4 times but, as has been said on another thread about a similar topic, is it realistic to think that you understand the dynamics of race etc in other countries just by visiting it for a while? The reality is too that you are a White male and whilst you may have travelled with PoC, it is unreasonable for you to presume that you understand or see things more than they ever could…unless you are of that negative mindset and most everything you type here suggests not.
Don’t forget B.R, you can go to most any place in the world without fear of being immediately discriminated due to the colour of your skin. You see racism more acutely because your wife is black – not because you have suddenly become racially ambiguous and are treated accordingly.
Im more interested if you think is Brazil more enlightened for having those laws on the books ?
Of course, any law that addresses racial abuse and is considered favorable. I had a mini debate with a commenter on the Open Thread about the use of racism on the pitch where he felt physical violence was more detrimental than any racist chanting/verbal abuse could be. I disagreed.
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sam:
Hijacked by extremists? You could argue that people with those beliefs are the ones actually living according to the doctrine.
For example, the Hadith specifies that those who commit apostasy should be killed. The Quran consecrates the killing of non-combatants. Martyrs are to be rewarded in paradise with virgins, with those killed in violent jihad being accorded particular benefit.
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@Randy
What positive things can be taken from the Quran or the Hadith?
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Ace sais “Well the interesting thing about Brazil is that it kept a lot of the racial problems even after it was allowed to self-govern. Many people see the “mixed looking men and women”, but don’t see the reasons behind why that is so common. It’s not the “rainbow coalition” people would love to hope it is. I always thought that the situations in Brazil and Argentina were both examples of how European racism has left it’s affects on the countries they colonized (or dominated ”
Demerera, Ace just said, so much better than me, what Im hinting about. Ace , I will meet you at the Miles Davis thread and Ill use Miles experiance with racism for being black as a tie in for racism in the Americas. But your question about my wife, and Demerera’s earnest inqurey, I think can be aluded to here.
There is a dichotomy , isnt there, Demerera. As Ace also said, it sure is differant, even more of a reason to match up how Brazil’s racism is differant than Europe and the USA, its a huge country also.
What is funny is, Brazilians who consider themselves white, were barred in Spain , hurded in uncomfortable rooms and called racist epiphets . That would be their biggest outrage. For sure there were black Braziians there too. Who knows what would have happened to my wife at that time , because I hope they smoothed it out, but I get a sick feeling thinking about it. As I said before, some of the things my wife experianced , were so humiliating , I cant say them on a public forum, but, what I can say is that, in Brazil, her story is common. She left home, from a very humble situation, desperate to work somewhere ( I was watching TV and was sad to see people picking up the vegatables that couldnt be sold at the market, and she said her mom and dad used to do that to feed them and the orfans they had been trying to take in ). The first place she worked, they only paid her food and board to work as full time maid, the next place, they paid her about 1.50 a month at very hard domestick work , and the third place she worked , it was going between two homes for less than 100 a month. these places she was always told she wouldnt get anywhere because she was black, humiated in ways i cant even say, and basicly the first two places were slave labor.
yes, brazil is racist, it has racial devide, but, the football players, who are the best in the world, are a representation of the repressed class, and they are phenotype more black. that is why they get the racist epiphets in Europe. The racist laws on the books are recent and they are the work of a hard stuggle. But, the heavy racism there is left over from slavery mentality, without the klan violence, that carries over in to brutal American racism in the north also. I think that may be the differance from Europe also, not the one drop rule ( I never brought that up, Demerera, I just have wanted to clarify that)
Demerera, I hope I have conveyed that I am all ears to the stories people are talking about here, and would never presume 4 tours gives me the scoop on Europe, what I meant was in those 4 tours , I had an anecdotal experiance , that my young black colleague was the one who complained and validly experianced it.I think that can go as a valid testimony pertanent to this thread and, as was seeing about the trumpet player actualy beat up by police for the exact same reason as my colleague , and I woudnt have noticed that if I wasnt a jazz musician. Teddy lamented it was old news, but, in fact , two things I brought in were news reports I saw those perspective days , supporting my veiws on this subject here.And the Spain immigration problem was this last year. I feel like Im listening, never have I diminished what anyone has said. And I ony brought up my experiances, which were anti American not racist towards me in Brazil, to show I do know what its like to be an immigrant.I do apreciete the diolougue Demerera, please dont get me wrong and I respect you and anyone on here I have diolouged with , very much. I didnt think I was being rude or impatient, just eager to make my points which were informed experianced observations that relate to this thread.
Ace, Ill make a statement in the Miles Davis section and if you want to say anything , we can diolougue over there, if that is ok with you, I dont want to derail this thread but I think we have interesting things we can discuss
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@bulanik:
I think you’re right. This time it is mental Iron Curtain.
Yes, after the first wave of religious zelotism had burned itself up, islamic world had what can be described as their renessance. After all they knew basics of photography in 800’s, surgery etc. All that changed with the crusades. Many westeners forget that during the first crusade there was a moment when those first crusaders actually went cannibalistic. They ate humans when they ran out of food and were desperate enough. This happened during the siege of Antiochia or there abouts. I think Runciman mentions this incident in his books.
@randy:
I have read koran couple times and I think it is not my cup of tea, but then again, if you bother to read bible, neither is that. Both are very violent books and religions. That in itself is not a surprise since they both have the same god and are based on judaism.
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Demerera:
I’m sure there are quite a few positive moral lessons in those collections, just like there are positive moral lessons in the Jewish and Christian Old Testament, that is once you get past the divine commandments to commit genocide and child sacrifice, sexual and non-sexual slavery, to engage in racism and sexism, to kill witches, disobedient children, non-virginal brides, homosexuals and those who labor on the Sabbath.
Yes, I do think you can claim that these doctrines contain positive values, but in the interest of intellectual honesty we need to abandon the fallacy that people who commit such horrible acts are “extremists”.
Quite the contrary. Those people are the doctrinally faithful who are properly obeying the word of the creator of the universe.
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sam,
Break out the fermented fish guts, looks like we agree on something.
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@Bulanik, Sam and B.R.
You know that the Muslims didn’t like the Crusades because they were planning to go over and take over Jersulam like that. The people in th Crusades killed a lot of people and aren’t very ”Christlike” as the Bible encouraged them to be.
@Sam
”quickly it’s forgotten that the Islamic world of that time was the most scientifically advanced and religiously tolerant society in the West.”
That is very true. The Muslim religion taught it’s members to respect other religions and people in general. But ”Christians” had to ruin the peace between them and I learned that generations of Muslims from the Middle East pass on the horrors and nonsense that the Crusade had brought to them.
That can partially explain why a lot of Muslims dislike Christians and their religion.
Christianity a violent religion?I am a Christian and Christianity is not a violent religion. Islam and Christianty actually started as peaceful religions but the people in both religions get too fanatical and go crazy. Please don’t judge those two religions based on some of the sick people in them.
Christianity has started a lot of war in Europe and caused the Pilgrims to leave England and come to the ”New World” as they dubbed it.
But no one can deny that Europe dominated the globe for centuries
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Bulanik,
My point is that the Abrahamic religions are inherently violent, and that the founding scriptures contain horrors nearly beyond belief of our modern sensibilities.
For whatever reason, the true nature of these religions seems to “get a free pass” from critical scrutiny, and we label their parishioners who practice violence, misogyny, homophobia, etc as being “extremist”. This is a complete farce.
In reality, such people are attempting to follow their religious doctrines to the letter.
Bulanik:
I don’t know to what extent the Quran and Hadith have replaced those particular commandments by the Hebrew god, so those are more directed towards devout Jews and Christians.
Devout Muslims are commanded to kill apostates as well as engage in violent jihad against those who impede the will of Allah. Also, Muslims are permitted to keep slaves and sexually exploit them, but this is more of a right and not a requirement (and available to men only, of course).
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just like there are positive moral lessons in the Jewish and Christian Old Testament, that is once you get past the divine commandments ……….to engage in racism
Can anyone tell me where in either of these testaments, it tells its followers to engage in racism?
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Demerera,
The book of Joshua is filled with racism, genocide, and ethnic cleansing.
The book of Ezra contains condemnations of interracial marriage as well as ethnic cleansing of foreign wives and children.
You also have Leviticus 25:44-46 condoning slavery against non-Israelites.
Numbers describes the stereotyping, demonization, and genocide of the Midianites (with child murder and sexual slavery).
Hopefully, these pointers are sufficient to get you started.
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Randy, genocide and ethnic cleansing are easily found in the bible, the question was concerning RACISM.
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The only way to not see these passages as describing racism is to divide people according to a modern taxonomy of 10 or so major global races.
In bronze-age near east, the world was much smaller and so were the delineations between peoples. Issues of bigotry, supremacy, and dehumanization were much the same then as today.
Hitler is widely considered to be a racist even though the vast majority of his victims would be classified as “white” according to the most common contemporary models.
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@Teddy1975
Randy, genocide and ethnic cleansing are easily found in the bible, the question was concerning RACISM.
It seems even something as sacred as the bible is open to interpretation….
@Randy
Randy
Bulanik,
My point is that the Abrahamic religions are inherently violent, and that the founding scriptures contain horrors nearly beyond belief of our modern sensibilities.
The question was “Are YOU an extremist?”
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Honestly? It seems to me that people are taking these ‘Abrahamic’ religions/texts and bastardizing them in the name of their own personal agendas.
Anyone who uses these texts to perpetuate ill towards their fellow man and spread malicious propaganda is not worthy IMO…
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Just to get back on track ,Growing up black in Europe leads to alienation: you see yourself through the eyes of white people, not through your own eyes; you talk about yourself through the language of white people, not through your own language.
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Actualy , I forgot to put quotes on what I said, its from the text of this thread….( Ok Ok I was trying to get Bulaniks attention and she didnt take the bait…..just to say, nice information you all are talking here)
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Demerera
Bastardizing? The genocides, sexual enslavements, and mass murder of children speaks for themselves. I’m not sure how anyone can make such atrocities seem any worse than they are.
Bulanik:
The term “extremist” is usually paired with a context, such as in “religious extremist”. I don’t subscribe to any dogmas, secular or religious, so I don’t think I can qualify as being any type of extremist.
Bulanik
My answer to your question hinges on your definition of “devout”. If you define “devout” as being faithful to the doctrines of one’s religion, then those Muslims who do not support the killing of apostates cannot be considered “devout”, because they’re directly contravening Quranic law.
If you define the term “devout” as including everyone who self-identifies as being “devout”, then the term has no meaning whatsoever.
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Bulanik:
Tell me if you disagree with any of the following:
1. Devout Muslims accept the Quran as the word of Allah.
2. The Quran commands the killing of apostates.
3. Devout Muslims support the killing of apostates.
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Honestly I am not sure if Islam respects other religions.
@Randy
Is that realy true?
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Bulanik:
As I’m not a racist, that appellation wouldn’t apply to me whether or not one agrees that racism is necessarily a form of extremism.
Bulanik:
I don’t think all anti-racism is anti-Biblical, however, if your religious belief includes the Old Testament as part of its doctrine, then you are commanded to kill Midianites and Amalekites wherever you find them, although you may exploit virginal girls as sexual slaves.
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@ Randy:
Tell me if you disagree with any of the following:
1. Devout Christians accept the Bible as the word of God.
2. The Bible commands the killing of homosexuals.
3. Devout Christians support the killing of homosexuals
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@ abagond above.
I hope that you’re not insinuating that 2 or 3 are bad things.
@bulanik
Hey, don’t put this on us , I’m just here for the lulz.
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abagond:
Unlike with the Quran, which purports to be the final revelation of the Almighty, there is debate as to whether Christians are bound to follow commandments from the Old Testament. I believe that Jesus does imply that previous laws still apply.
From that perspective, I would agree with all 3 of your statements, and add that one is also commanded to kill witches, disobedient children, and stone non-virginal brides to death on their father’s doorstep.
First bonus passage: 1 Timothy 6:1-2 where Jesus not only doesn’t repudiate the practice of slavery, but states that their slaves should show extra respect to their masters if their masters are believers.
Second bonus passage: Ephesians 6:5-7: Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people,
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Adeen:
I’m not a scholar on the matter, but Islam does seem to treat other religions with quite a bit of tolerance, particularly Judaism and Christianity whose adherents are considered fellow “People of the Book”.
However, Muslims are permitted to kill, enslave and sexually abuse non-Muslims under certain circumstances, such as in war or when it’s perceived that non-Muslims are impeding the will of Allah.
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@B.R
Just to get back on track
!
I see – B. R wants to talk – we must listen.
Growing up black in Europe leads to alienation: you see yourself through the eyes of white people, not through your own eyes; you talk about yourself through the language of white people, not through your own language.
B.R please. I know you are trying to be antagonistic to get some attention – particularly the attention of Bulanik I guess? You dont like to be told do you aye?
Something you MUST remember is this. BP in the U.K are not as disassociated with our cultural heritage as BP in the U.S. I know my roots and finances permitting, can hop on a plane to my ancesteral home land and visit relatives there. This unfortunately is not the same for many BP in the U.S who’s ancesteral history stretches back to slavery as well you know.
You are coming across to me as the typical paternalistic ‘all knowledgeable’ white man who needs to tell black folk how they feel.
You have been told about different aspects and experiences in Europe and have already stated that you havent understood them. I in turn have stated that people have tried to explain this the best way they can, but this simply isnt good enough for you. The thing is, it is not that people are not replying to you, it is just that their replies dont satisfy your need to be able to ‘relate’ to them being poor needy negroes.
What is this ‘talking through the language of white people’ you want me to start talking some patois for you to satisfy you and your understanding of who I am?
You seem to find it difficult to reconcile the fact that there are some BP who, whilst they go through horrendous experiences etc, sometimes, on a daily basis, dont actually want to detail it so that you can come and do your ‘hero’ bit on here.
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@Bulanik
Demerera, can Islamphobes say anything positive about Muslims?
No, I dont believe they can. Why? Because any ‘phobe’ that humans choose to succumb to (particularly where there is sufficient ‘balanced’ information to inform their thinking) demonstrates a single minded thinking that is narrow in its approach. A refusal, almost an incapability perhaps to look at things from a balanced and objective viewpoint.
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@Bulanik
@Demerera
Re Asians and blacks in the UK – have you noticed that although IRR and intermarriage with whites is not rare, IRR and intermarriage between Asians and blacks is much much less common?
Any thoughts why that should be, as the racism both blacks and Asians experience is mostly at the hands of whites? If blacks and Asians share so much in common in the UK, why aren’t marriage rates higher?
I fear Bulanik it is merely to do with the hierachial perception of BP in terms of race. I have often heard it said that an Asian person cannot date out of their race, certainly now with a WP and definately not with a BP.
Now, I appreciate that within many asian beliefs, the caste system prevails however when the issue of IRR has been raised, one of the main biases from Asian to Black is that black people were slaves and were beneath them in the ‘hierachial’ racial pecking order.
Have you seen many Blasians in the UK?
My comments above are in relation to discussions with a close friend of mine who has this racial mix. Hers has been quite a difficult road and she is STILL at odds as to ‘who’ she is and whether or not she identifies with any particular race.
What are your experiences of this Bulanik? Why do you think that IRR between blacks and asians are less common? Do you think there is any truth in what I have said here?
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My goodness, Demerera, that was a pretty poor analysis of where I am coming from….
“it is just that their replies dont satisfy your need to be able to ‘relate’ to them being poor needy negroes.”
Excuse me, but I was talking with Sam also, I dont know what color
Teddy is, so, your perception is extremly warped
“You are coming across to me as the typical paternalistic ‘all knowledgeable’ white man who needs to tell black folk how they fe”
Again, I didnt get the impresion I was addressing black folk, I think you are under a misimpresion
dThe paragraph I brought in was directly from the text of the thread. Do you have a problem with that?
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“To decolonize your mind to overcome this, to heal your soul, you need:
To have positive, empowering images of blacks, like Barack Obama, black heroes in Hollywood films, black writers, etc. Blacks need to tell and hear their own stories.
To know the history of the African Diaspora – to know where you came from. That history is lost and broken, but Americans are starting to recover it and piece it back together.
To take care of yourself.”
Here is some more text from the exact thread on here that hasnt been hardly addressed at all
Does she mention religion at all, Im just wonderint?
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@B.R
OK, I concede that on the surface it may seem that my response was rather harsh but, I am more getting at the ‘WHY’ ‘you’ posted that particular comment?. It almost seemed as if you were using it to prove something for yourself and not really wanting the question answered – almost like you were making that statement yourself.
I was perplexed by the timing of this as you have have been honest enough in a previous coment to say that you agree that having toured Europe 4 times does not give you the contextual knowledge to know what its like to actually live there.
Does she mention religion at all, Im just wonderint?
Why does it bother you that the topic has gone of on a slight tangent in this way? You either contribute, or you dont – simple! There is no need to be a smart ar$e about it is there. I’m sure that if abagond himself has posed questions that he wants answered to Randy then this is sufficient enough to show that he doesnt feel that this particular topic does not stray too far from the post itself.
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@Bulanik
Thank you for your opinion. I don’t really read Randy’s posts often but I don’t know.
I am really young and I don’t understand racism very well,
Explain to me more about racism and how it came about
In EUROPE and all over.
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Demerea, thank you for addressing my questions.
Please understand, I am learning an enourmous amount from all the posts. I would never say stop, but, after some extremly educated discusion about religion, I did want to address things that were in the thread text.I absolutly have never said that people here shouldnt talk about all the demensions of ethnic and national and religious dimensions in Europe and, I noticed and it was my focus , that a lot of what is in here text addresses questions that pertain to “black’, or the “black ” experiance in Europe. So , after that I did throw in a blurb from what she said. I refered to Bulanik mostly because you have actualy diolouged with me recently as has Sam. I also said, in good nature that I was getting lost of good info from all of you and I want to stress that. And , I am interested also in direct things from the text, like those last two things I brought in and this: “The European media teaches us what it means to be white or black: Whites are heroes while blacks are pictured as helpless, dependent, criminal, exotic, etc”
Another direct reference to “black”…I also would like to know if you think she , in your opinions , concentrated on “black ” too much in this text? or should she have mentioned more nationality also?
I sure didnt mean you should stop what you are talking about, I just wanted to address things in earnest about the text in this thread.
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lost of good info of course is “lots of good info”
For sure I want to know what you all as Europeans think of those things I reffered to in the text
I have been listening and asking lots of quetions, I also said I was not satisfied with all the answers ( of course my opinion only), and am following and at times incert new questions I have or incert new peices of information that I find…for me , this is an on going process talking about this. Im not set in stone and I have opinions that I state of course.
Did I throw a little tease at Bulanik who I thought I had some interesting discusions before and always stated I respected her and perceived very well she is ignoring me now….?………yes, and I will absolutly desist from that from now on
Demerera, I certainly take you very seriously and respect your opinions very much
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Ok , Bulanik’s analysis of “black” came in while I was writing, so, that is good information to digest
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“Bulanik
If memory serves me right, when we talk about Asians (South Asians) and blacks, the word “black” has been, and occasionally still is – a descriptor for BOTH people from the Indian sub-continent and people who are African descended.”
Linda says,
Thank you for stating this Bulanik.
Remember that poster Realism who kept insisting that “whites accept Asians over blacks in Euope”….because of this statement, I knew he wasn’t from Europe or UK because if he had ever been to UK, he would known the “Pakis” (Pakistan) catch he’l and that in certain European countries Indians are called “black”
so he outed himself.
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@Bulanik, Linda and B.R.
I love your opinions and reading your posts. You three are so intelligent.
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BR,
It’ great that you are open to trying to understand the difference between European prejudice & racism vs. North / South American prejudice & racism.
Here are a few basic things to remember which should help you to understand the difference.
1st, in Europe, if your skin colour is dark, meaning not white European, with pale skin, you are automatically assumed to be a foreigner and the country you come from will determine your treatment.
2nd, if your skin colour is not dark, but light or pale but you are from another country, then you are a foreigner and the country you come from will determine your treatment.
3rd. Depending on the European country: most Africans are assumed to be refugees or students, racism based on skin colour increases depending on that countries history with dark skin people.
Example: Spain has had a negative history with invaders from Africa and they are ex-colony holders, so they have a built-in prejudice against dark skin.
Russia, has a history of being very nationalistic and their ongoing war with Chechnya has not made them very open to foreigners.
4th, if your skin is pale and you don’t speak the local language with the proper dialect, you are considered a foreigner and will be treated according to your reason for being there (and how east in Europe you go or how small the town)
Ex. If you have money or you are a tourist, you are welcome because the locals can raise the prices and make some money off of you.
If you are broke and in a country like Slovakia, then you are considered a problem and the locals (the 1 or 2 who speak English) will continuously ask you when are you going home because they can’t make money from you, so you serve no purpose 🙂 whereas, if I (dark person) were to go and I have money, I would be welcomed.
5th: class counts.
If you are from the USA (black or white) it doesnt’ matter if you are broke or have money, you are a very welcome sight to the young women of the lower class—your value is the green card they can get through you. They will treat you like a king.
Hope this helps a little.
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@B.R
Did I throw a little tease at Bulanik who I thought I had some interesting discusions before and always stated I respected her and perceived very well she is ignoring me now….?………yes, and I will absolutly desist from that from now on
OK, I understand what you are trying to do here – getting Bulanik to ‘notice’ you. But, I implore you to try and understand how very raw these feelings are for many of us. It is not something you can ‘tease’ out of us and neither is it something that we can easily articulate here. But know this – we see it, we feel it, we ‘live’ it!
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@Bulanik
If memory serves me right, when we talk about Asians (South Asians) and blacks, the word “black” has been, and occasionally still is – a descriptor for BOTH people from the Indian sub-continent and people who are African descended. It’s a political word for both groups to describe their skin colour, a vestige of traditional British Commonwealth usage that encompassed India, parts of Africa and islands in the Caribbean Sea.
The Commonwealth nations of the old British Empire:
I wonder if ‘Black’ is a term widely ‘accepted’ in the South Asian cultures?… My experience has been that Asian people, certainly those from a Pakistani/Bangladeshi background want to exclude themselves from this descriptor, PDQ. For them, perhaps, it has negative connotations and associations Now, we have to keep in mind ‘context’ here. I grew up in the late 70’s onwards. A certain ‘awareness’ had already come about i.e. Brixton and Toxteth riots for example under the reign of ‘Thatcher Britain’, as an example of how ‘Black’ disaffected youth behave. Perhaps this had some influence?
I, for one, know many people of South Asian origin who describe themselves as Black – in a political way – but are culturally and ethnically Indian, Pakistani, Bengali, etc.
Again, I think they understand that they are NOT white and will never be perceived as white but, in terms of the latter two you mention, calling themselves ‘Black’ has never seemed to sit comfortably with them.
And, to add, there are people who are of South Asian roots who are only ethnically South Asian, but consider themselves politically and culturally “Caribbean”.
For example, take Lord Waheed Alli, the son of a mother from Trinidad and a father from Guyana. One of Europe’s few openly gay Muslim politicians:
Yes. Those who are deemed ‘Coolies’, though I think that term and all negative connotations associated with this is on the wane….to me, it is a term associated with ‘slavery’ to close for comfort…
What do I mean? Because a “one size fits all” word like Black falsely equates racial discrimination with colour-discrimination. Further, obscures the cultural hostility that Asians in UK (and Europe) face – and therefore of the character of the discrimination suffered. I don’t want to enter into an oppression Olympics here – but the discrimination and racism faced by the UK’s Asians is AT LEAST as bad as that endured by the African-descended black British.
Yes. As we have seen on this very thread, the religion many Pakistani and Bangladeshi people follow is a factor which has been bastardized and this unfortunately has left an indelible imprint that is hard to shift. What do you think of this?
To illustrate what I mean, do you remember the incident of Shilpa Shetty in the Big Brother tv programme a while back. The black housemates, including a very-white bi-racial girl, were all excluded from racist treatment, but the bi-racial girl (Jade Goody) was particularly racist in their attitude and behaviour towards her Indian housemate. It was the kind of racism that many – if not all – Asians are accustomed in the UK:
Yes, I unfortuntely remember it all to well….
That said, black British is usually now, more than ever, a description of African descended peoples in the UK. As far as I know, black is usually sub-divided into ‘Caribbean’, ‘African’ and ‘Other Black’ groups. I think there about 1.5million black people in England, but I don’t know what the figure is for Wales, Scotland or Ireland; I can only imagine these populations are not large, and numbers do not run over 500,000 people in total.
Yes I agree these figures are probably not easy to decipher or pinpoint – Wales in particular has a diverse mix in terms of ethnicity for PoC. Scotland seems to have a significant population of Asian people and Ireland again is diverse in terms of the racial mix of ethnicities I should think though I don’t think those numbers are anywhere near the figures of those in England.
P.S I hope this comes out clearly, the ‘Reply’ box here is minimized so I cant tell whether the right spaces etc are OK
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@Linda
If you are from the USA (black or white) it doesnt’ matter if you are broke or have money, you are a very welcome sight to the young women of the lower class—your value is the green card they can get through you. They will treat you like a king.
Hollow lol – Cynical perhaps but unfortunately true…
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Wales-From 2007 (Percentage)
White 97.1
Mixed 0.8
Asian or Asian British 1.2
Black or Black British 0.3
Chinese or Other Ethnic Group 0.6
Click to access 101027walespopulationen.pdf
Scotland-From 2001 (Percentage)
White Scottish 88.09
Other White British 7.38
White Irish 0.98
Any other White background 1.54
Indian 0.30
Pakistani 0.63
Bangladeshi 0.04
Chinese 0.32
Other South Asian 0.12
Caribbean 0.04
African 0.10
Black Scottish or any other Black background 0.02
Any Mixed Background 0.25
Any other background 0.19
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2004/02/18876/32939
Ireland- Froom 2001(Percentage)
White 99.15
Irish Traveller 0.10
Mixed 0.20
Indian 0.09
Pakistani 0.04
Bangladeshi 0.01
Other Asian 0.01
Black Caribbean 0.02
Black African 0.03
Other Black 0.02
Chinese 0.25
Other ethnic group 0.08
Table KS06
Click to access Key%20Statistics%20ReportTables.pdf
Some figures. The Ethnic categories were slightly confusing to me but I know you all understand them.
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@Deedee7789
Thank you
Irish Traveller 0.10
It is interesting to me why Irish travellers are differentiated from ‘Irish’ people – anybody have any thoughts as to why still in the 21st century, this might be? Do you think this perception would be the same the world over or in the U.S?
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@Bulanik
Northern Ireland.
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Ireland- from 2006 (I think all of Ireland this time)
White
Irish 3,645,199
Irish Traveller 22,369
Any other White background 289,041
Black or Black Irish
African 40,525
Any other Black background 3,793
Asian or Asian Irish
Chinese 16,533
Any other Asian background 35,812
Other (incl. mixed background) 46,438
Not stated 72,303
Total 4,172,013
Table 3A
Click to access vol_5_2006_complete.pdf
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Demerera,
Those chicks from the East take the term “gold diggers” to another level 🙂
“Bulanik,
The effect though is the veneration for fair-skin and disdain and low status of dark complexions….so, no “black” does not sit comfortably with British Asians!”
It doesn’t sit well with the non-mixed Indians in Jamaica either (look at how they go at it in Trinidad)…
do they call the “untouchables” in India “black”…do you think this is the reason why colourism in India is so harsh?
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“Adeen
@Bulanik, Linda and B.R.
I love your opinions and reading your posts. You three are so intelligent.”
Thanks Adeen, you’re going to make me blush 🙂
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Absolutly, Demerera about what you told me, thank you Linda, you both have always been informative, thank you Adeen, you are intelligent too and I am learning too…
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@ randy:
I see that despite your “neutral” stance on the religions, you advocate that islam is inheritly worse than the others. Also, I noticed how you tried, in vain, to separate the Old Testamet (judaic) from the New Testament (christian), the latter being more negative.
If you really read the bible and what Jesus says, you will notice that he is nothing like you advocate Or the church TODAY says he is. Jesus claims to destroy the Temple of Jerusalem, he also says that anyone not agreeing with him will go to hell, he says he is not bringing peace but unheaval and destruction, how he will wipe out the present order of things etc.
Also i look at the closest men in Jesus entourage you will see that he was nothing of a påeace loving hippie church so happily portrays him to be: There is Simon the Zelot, that is an al qaida terrorist of his day, Judas the Sicarius, that is the dagger man = assassin and also a zelot etc. When the temple guards come to arrest Jesus Peter chops off an ear from one, he actually swings a sword to this mans head, and Jesus tells TO ALL HIS MEN to put away their swords. So the question is Why Jesus and his guys were carrying swords openly all day and night?
Where they the nice peacnicks you seem to think they were or where they something else? What they really did in the Temple? Just imagine what would happen if thirteen armed men would strom NYC stock exanchange in the middle of trading, break their machines, beat the brokers up and then walk to the City Hall and declare that new age has arrived and that one of them is the king of americans.
Jesus as a peacenick is very recent image. In the past, ad quite recently, he and his sayings were used to support wars, slavery, racism, dictatorship, torture, massacers of women ad children etc. Just read history Randy and do not think we don’t.
You can take any religion from buddhism to islam and make it extremely violent if you wish. You can use them positively too and that includes islam. Islam is no more violent or “bad” religion than christianity. We just live in the world were it is portrayed so and were the extremists and ultra conservative muslims get the press, not the liberal and peaceful muslims. And that Randy is racism too and when you do that, you are also a racist.
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sam,
All the Abrahamic religions are drenched in violence. Jesus, for example, explicitly condoned slavery. If you believe that the Bible is the revealed word of God, then you cannot be a devout Christian while also being against slavery. True story.
As to whether Islam is “worse” than Christianity or Judaism is a matter of interpretation. The Quran specifically sanctions the acquisition and rape of female slaves, as well as killing those who impede the will of Allah. I can provide citations for anyone who doubts this.
sam:
The difference is that the Abrahamic religions command violence and repression within their very scriptures. I’m not aware of similar commands in the scriptures of religions such as Buddhism, Taoism, or Jainism.
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@Bulanik
British Asians discriminate among themselves. Inter-caste marriages are not unheard-of, but frowned up – at best. Inter-faith marriages – well – that’s definitely not encouraged (in theory a Muslim man may marry a Hindu but she must convert/revert to Islam, a Muslima may not marry a Hindu man, etc.).
I know this only too well. A friend of mine, a muslim, has a cousin who was stepping out with a Hindu guy. She unfortunately was not very discreet and was seen by her own sister who reported back to the parents. The girl was detained at home, with no outside contact and was not allowed to return to her job. Instead, she got sent back to pakistan to get married as soon as possible which has now happened. She maintains she is happy overall with how things have turned out.
This is probably quite an extreme example – the parents involved are quite elderly compartively and they are still immersed in tradition and the idea that their daughter behaving in this way would bring shame on to the family. They were also mindful to make sure that they strengthened the family by ensuring she married within the family which again I know is a common thing too.
Do you know anyone who has had an arranged marriage or do you know anyone from these religious backgrounds who have had a ‘love’ marriage as my friends call it? How confident would you feel about your parents choosing a partner for you? I doubt I would be happy with any choice my parents might make, too many things suggest that they would have different ideas about what a relationship needs to be able to find someone compatible.
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@Bulanik
What have you observed about black British prejudice against Asians?
What can I say. I have witnessed prejudice towards Asian people from Black British people i.e. reservations about eating their food, cleanliness and the fact that they have felt Asians have been prejudiced to them due to the fact that they feel that Asians try to aspire to be closer to white than anything else.
How much of this has any credence I wonder? Many West Indian dishes for example are a combination/fusion of influences from both African and Asian dishes so I am left bemused about the reservations of eating food. I loved Indian food but alas, I can no longer eat anything with too much of a kick to it.
In terms of cleanliness, in my experience, this has always been more aimed at people of Pakistani/Bangladeshi heritage. I used to work with a girl who was part asian and part white and she told me that when she worked at a place in London, she had much hostility from a co-worker who kept saying “someone smells of garlic/curry around here” and whilst never pinpointing my friend, her general behaviour towards her was less than decent.
Regarding the feelings of attempts to disassociate themselves from their WI cousins, I think that the posts you have done re colourism could contribute to the very real attitudes to do with skin shade etc that many Asian people foster.
Other than what I have stated, have you noted any other type of prejudice from one to the other? Have you seen racism from Asian people to Black British people?
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@randy:
“I’m not aware of similar commands in the scriptures of religions such as Buddhism, Taoism, or Jainism.”
There were and still are several buddhist monk brotherhoods to whom violence is part of the Way, most famously the Shao Lin monks, still showboating their kung fu around the world. Several existed in Japan and actually were fighting wars against several opponents for couple centuries in 1400-1500’s until daimio Oda Nobunaga mostly finished them off. Also, most, if not all, samurais were devout buddhists. So…
@bulanik:
Excellent stuff again! And also goes to show that racism in Europe is not a simple black/white thing even among the non white population.
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sam:
You didn’t answer the question. I asked if violence and repression were commanded by the holy scriptures of those religions, like it is in the Old and New Testaments.
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@Bulanik
“This ODR thing does sound complex!
But aren’t white people affected differently by it, because they don’t have to feel racialized every day in a system that privileges them above others? The black American experience is striking for the absence of this freedom and privilege. This means that black-white bi-racial experiences are bound to be a minefield for many. It’s a high-racial-pressure culture where they are squeezed and constantly told what they must feel, choose and are allowed to define themselves as.”
I think this is a misreading of the contemporary situation in the US. I sense that Americans of all races (white, black, etc.) on average have grown more respectful and sensitive to the needs of mixed people. Etiquette increasingly dictates that those of B-W mixed parentage are to be regarded as “biracial” or “multiracial” in recognition of their family background and given some space to develop an appropriate self-identity reflecting this fact. You can see this new morality in regards to Obama. The mass media and members of the public frequently discuss his mixed background and upbringing in a positive manner. And Obama himself has no apprehension noting that his mom is a “white woman from Kansas.”
Funny as it may sound, I think the most hardcore proponents of the one drop rule (ODR) these days are not American. This awful concept is currently applied by some (but by no means everyone) in various regions: Western Europe, Russia, even Brazil. The increasing global prominence of mixed race Americans (the most spectacular example being the President) has instilled envy in the hearts of many bigots the world over. They are under the impression that the one drop rule is still a strongly enforced code in this country, as opposed to a dying convention. Consequently, they attempt to bait mixed Americans with Jim Crow-esque cliches that were archaic by the 1970s if not earlier.
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“FG,
Funny as it may sound, I think the most hardcore proponents of the one drop rule (ODR) these days are not American. This awful concept is currently applied by some (but by no means everyone) in various regions: Western Europe, Russia, even Brazil. The increasing global prominence of mixed race Americans (the most spectacular example being the President) has instilled envy in the hearts of many bigots the world over.”
Somewhat confused by this statement.
How is the US American “one drop rule” impacting the European or Brazilian views.
Can you please elaborate and give examples of this.
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Hey everyone, check out this very recent example of European “nationalism”:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/17/lena-adelsohn-liljeroth-cake_n_1431544.html
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If FG could be saying that based on the New York Times article I brought in based on the debate in Brazil based on racial quotas for universities and other things I dont know exactly about.
There are racial quotas in place for the universities , its the law, and there are many white Brazilians uptight about it, especialy at the thought they think it might be copying the USA
I think you made a lot of good points FG, the only thing I might disagree with is, Im in favor of quotas since these people aint going to give it up ever, you have to pry them apart to let black people in the system…just my opinion
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…yeah, the “if” shouldnt be in there at the top
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“How is the US American “one drop rule” impacting the European or Brazilian views.
Can you please elaborate and give examples of this.”
The concept has clearly migrated to other countries. If I am not mistaken, Bulanik (from the UK) claimed that Alexander Pushkin was simply “black”, in response to one of the resident “race realists.” That’s an obvious example.
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“FG,
Bulanik (from the UK) claimed that Alexander Pushkin was simply “black”, in response to one of the resident “race realists.” That’s an obvious example.”
Linda says,
I don’t think she was saying that Pushkin was black but questioning the hypocritical thinking of the poster concerning the ODR.
If I’m remember correctly, Bulanik was asking the poster “how come he considered Pushkin white when the poster considered mixed people in US with same background to be black.”
To be clear:
if Pushkin is “1/8th black” but is considered white by this white American poster (as well as Russia)
then, why does he (white American) consider “1/8th black” mixed Americans to be black and not white like Pushkin.
Hope that made sense 🙂
but I would hope you have actual examples of this world view besides Bulanik.
Can you post any articles or elaborate on this concept migrating?
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Actually, it was Bell who posed the question I referenced to.
“Bell
@ Inconvenient Truth
Would you have considered Pushkin “White” if he was a gangster, dumb and read like kindergardener, a criminal, violent, un-educated?
Yes, I know that all what i mentioned above applies to all races, but I’m curious to know your opinion.
“But his “blackness” is ALL THE WAY BACK to his one GREAT-GRANDFATHER!”
Is the “One Drop Rule” acceptable in some cases and unacceptable in other cases?”
I know in different European country’s, they call anyone who is dark “black” such as the Gypsies in Slovakia, South Asians in Russia…this is in reference to them being considered non-white.
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From this video of the ‘African woman’ cake being cut open by a Swedish minster to highlight Female Genital mutilation. However, the laughing and smiles while cutting the cake is disgusting and reminds me of how the European still sees the suffering African people and in particular African women which reflects their racist thinking.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2012/apr/17/swedish-minister-racism-cake-video?intcmp=239
Please note the video is distressing.
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@F.G
Linda asked:- “How is the US American “one drop rule” impacting the European or Brazilian views.
Can you please elaborate and give examples of this.”
F.G said: The concept has clearly migrated to other countries. If I am not mistaken, Bulanik (from the UK) claimed that Alexander Pushkin was simply “black”, in response to one of the resident “race realists.” That’s an obvious example.
F.G – excuse me if I am confusing you with another commmenter but I understood you to be mixed race?
Though others may not allude to it, many of us on here come from a diverse racial backgrounds too – we are not just ‘From the UK’.
Without (I hope) prying too much, have you had negative experiences to do with race in the UK or from people from the UK?
I appreciate we do not live in the U.S but surely that doesnt mean our experiences are any less valid? Half of my family live in the U.S and what I write here informs my writing, that and the commentary and responses from other U.S commenters too.
Again, perhaps I am wrong but, I get the sense you do not like the term ‘Black’ foisted on to you? That you would prefer people to identify you with your racial heritage/background. On one of the threads (I cant remember which) an indiviual asserted that they think that people of mixed/bi-racial backgrounds should have a racial identity of their own – do you agree with this?
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@Bulanik
Apologies for the tardy response on this.
Does FG really ımagıne that all folk ın Europe who are not whıte
*dısdaın blackness?
*don’t understand (very well) what ıt ıs to be mıxed race?
It certainly seems that way but, I have asked FG for their viewpoint so we can perhaps understand the context in which they present their opinion.
Some of us absolutely love our mıxed-race herıtage, and see no paradox ın havıng a deep love (and thankfulness) for our Afrıcan herıtage as well.
Many of us who feel that way are ALSO glad to have a mıxed-race category.
Love, acceptance and appreciation of who we are, and where we originate are the primary elements needed to ‘ike ourselves, love ourselves even. But, there are those who have grown up in turmoil, confused, resentful and find it hard to take on board perceived difference in their own racial identity, particularly if it is diverse in its make up.
As ıf that goes to show anythıng other than the work of a probably mıxed-up black+whıte bı-racıal person who ıs ambıvalent – at best – about black people, Afrıcans and black, Afrıcan women. I stress the word perhaps because I don’t know what would prompt anyone to portray a so-called ‘black woman’ lıke that for the merrıment of whıte people who should know better…
Indeed, yet I sense we are not getting to the crux of the issue in this instance. Perhaps F.G would like to expound on earlier comments to clarify the stance on this?
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“Iris,
I understand what you mean to say now. Thank you for explaining it. While European racism mainly comes from viewing everyone who is not White as a sort of `foreign invader’, American racism comes from the very birth of the country when all Black people were slaves and had no option of returning to their own countries. Early immigrants to Europe helped in ways that go unacknowledged (e.g. fighting in wars for the country they had immigrated to), but not to the extent that Black Americans have helped create the US and yet remained oppressed with their contributions brushed aside as if they’re nothing.”
Linda says,
Iris, you are so right about common wealth members contributions.
My grandfather was recruited from Jamaica into the Royal Navy and fought in WW2. He was proud to serve the ‘mother country’ and he told me stories about the war but after the war, the exit packet he received was almost nothing and like you mentioned, history barely acknowledges the contributions of the ‘common wealth’ members from Africa, Asia, and Caribbean.
He also mentioned how much he never wanted to visit US again
(he had worked as a migrant farmer for 1 year in 1935 in Florida) because he did not like how black people were treated.
Here is a link to a story I found which kind of highlights the difference between black Caribbean soldiers serving in the Royal Navy and black American soldiers in US Army stationed in Britian.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peopleswar/stories/96/a1921196.shtml
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@Linda
Here is a link to a story I found which kind of highlights the difference between black Caribbean soldiers serving in the Royal Navy and black American soldiers in US Army stationed in Britian.
Thanks for sharing the link. I have never heard of a story which intersperses both Black American and Black West Indian PoV of experiences during WW2.
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“White is not a color. White is a political definition, which represents historical, political and social privileges of a certain group that has access to dominant structures and institutions of society. Whiteness represents the reality and history of a certain group.”
So Obama, Rihanna and Oprah Winfrey are white? How do you determine whether someone belongs to the certain group?
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You say that race doesn’t exist except as social construct, but you all talk like it is an objective, biological reality.
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Can someone find me a place on earth where there is no “Racism”. In fact if it’s not “racism” it’s “Class-ism”, or “Clan/Tribal-ism” or “National-ism”, or “Sex-ism”.
Europe and America welcomes all (and all can be a citizen), how many other nations allows that? Seriously…
Can I move to China, and be a citizen, or Saudi Arabia?
Do you know any other nations where you can have an Oprah Winfrey?
Everyone complains about European and Americans, yet everyone is moving there, trying to get away from their native lands.
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“Anomymous
Linda says,
The author of this post is European, so she has all the right in the world to complain if she chooses.
Europe is not a country. So, pick an actual European country to compare to US of America if you wish to make a point.
and many European countries do NOT welcome all and anyone, that’s why they are known for being very Nationalistic and Xenophobic and have very Strict immigration laws.
America is a nation of immigrants and hypocrites who forgot that unless you are an native Indian, then your forefathers came on a big Boat.
and America doesn’t give immigrants anything for free– immigrants have to meet many criterias, jump through hoops just to get a ‘green card’ and renounce their home country’s citizenship in order to be ‘American Citizens’…your government doesn’t hand it out like candy…it has to be bought and paid for in hard green cash.
and Nigeria, Canada, China, and Russia has also produced it’s share of self-made millionaires / billionaires like Oprah Winfrey…pulling up your bootstraps is not exceptional to only America.
Here a few people the colour of Oprah Winfrey who managed to become rich without America’s help.
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/10/7TE8.html
http://www.therichest.org/world/wealthiest-black-people/
http://www.allblackwoman.com/2011/10/03/yvonne-thompson-britains-first-black-woman-to-become-a-self-made-millionaire-in-the-media-industry/
http://www.forbes.com/sites/mfonobongnsehe/2011/11/16/10-african-millionaires-to-watch/
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Let me guess, Asians and other ethnic groups are welcoming to all. Really?
So if I go to Japan, I will be as welcome as other Japanese? If I go to Saudi Arabia, I will be as welcome as a Middle Easterner?
Really?
Most nations are more racist than Europeans, especially to other non-Whites, and even more so to Blacks.
Those other nations can’t even accept their own, yet are complaining about Europeans non-stop, while they have a way better lifestyle than in their own country of origin.
No where is perfect, however no one is desperate to immigrate to most non-European/Westernize nations.
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Ahem:
(http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/21/europe-migrants-crisis-irish-portuguese)
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Reblogged this on realblackpower's Blog.
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Everyone who is not of a European origin needs to get the hell out of Europe. There is no mass European settlement in their homelands. Germany for the Germans! France for the French! Britain for the British! And by the same token, Africa for the Africans! Asia for the Asians! America for the Americans! Canada for the Canadians! Mexico for the Mexicans! Arabia for the Arabs! China for the Chinese! India for the Indians! Japan for the Japanese!
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Bobby M@ America for the Americans! Canada for the Canadians!
Well Bobby, Then that means, you and every other “white” American has to the get the h’ll out of North America since the only REAL Americans
are the Native people that your European invading ancestors murdered for their land and forced onto Reservations
Europe is reaping what they sowed — go get a hobby and a new cause
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Bobby M, why not show an example to the others and go back to your ancestral homeland.
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If she hates Whites, she has no business living in Europe. I hate diversity.
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Bullshit. You hate not being privileged. You didn’t have a problem with ‘diversity’ when you didn’t have to compete on an equal footing.
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Actually Dr. Verwoerd’s goal was an independent system of states. South Africa as a Western nation and various states for Bantu races. He didn’t believe in a diverse state. Sadly, he was murdered in cold blood by a radical Marxist quadroon before he could make this a reality.
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