Black people in America according to the Eleventh Edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica (1911):
- evolutionary plane: low: measurements of their skulls and bones show that they are closer to apes than to white people – though white people do have more apelike hair.
- hair: more like wool than “true hair”.
- intelligence: “the mental inferiority of the negro to the white or yellow races is a fact”. Black children were “sharp, intelligent and full of vivacity, but on approaching the adult period a gradual change set in. The intellect seemed to become clouded, animation giving place to a sort of lethargy, briskness yielding to indolence. ” Causes:
- psychological: “the arrest or even deterioration in mental development is no doubt very largely due to the fact that after puberty sexual matters take the first place in the negro’s life and thoughts.”
- physical: “the growth of the brain is … arrested by the premature closing of the cranial sutures and lateral pressure of the frontal bone.”
- evolutionary: “the easy conditions of tropical life and the fertility of the soil have reduced the struggle for existence to a minimum.”
- better than whites: “negroes far surpass white men in acuteness of vision, hearing, sense of direction and topography.”
- temperament: “very similar to that of a child, normally good-natured and cheerful, but subject to sudden fits of emotion and passion during which he is capable of performing acts of singular atrocity, impressionable, vain, but often exhibiting in the capacity of servant a dog-like fidelity which has stood the supreme test.”
morals: Crime rate is the “best available index of moral progress or retrogression”. In 1904 in the South blacks were 5.5 times more likely to be put in prison than whites; in the North, 9 times. Records show that the black crime rate had dropped considerably since 1890, but that is probably a mistake. Also keep in mind that “the comparative infrequency of crime among slaves, even if it existed, is no proof of the absence of criminal tendencies and actions.”- on the loss of the vote in the South: “On the part of the overwhelming majority of negroes this practical disfranchisement has aroused no protest, while it has tended to improve the government…”
- wealth: In 1904 the average black person had a wealth of $34 (58 crowns). For whites in 1900 it was $1320 (2,112 crowns) or 39 times more.
- education: half can read, up from 8% for slaves. In the South for every $1.00 spent on a white student, $0.40 is spent on a black student.
- slavery: it civilized blacks and “furnished industrial training to many slaves”.
- freedom: the lowest tenth is “perhaps … worse off than in slavery.” It is “too early to say” whether blacks will be “serviceable” and remain “a vital and essential part of the life of the nation”, as they were as slaves.
- mulattoes: 17% to 33% of all blacks. “The recognized leaders of the race are almost invariably persons of mixed blood, and the qualities which have made them leaders are derived certainly in part and perhaps mainly from their white ancestry.”
- Leading causes of death: tuberculosis, pneumonia.
See also:
- Black people according to Thomas Jefferson
- Black people according to Franz Boas – who lived at this time
- Black people according to American television
- black people according to white people
- Jim Crow racism
- The black brute stereotype
- Madison Grant
- HBD
- pseudoscience
- black people as monkeys
- Anti-black racism as a guide to science
Abagond 
suggested reading and review
The ISIS Papers by Dr.Frances Cress Welsing
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The more some things change, the more other things stay the same.
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Sounds like doug has this one on his table.
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That illustration of the skulls is absurd. Highly exaggerated proportions.
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I’m sure the Usual Suspects will be here soon.
They already quote from this verbatim and to see it in print like this will send them into a frenzy of typing where regular posters will ‘learn’ more about their blinkered, narrow and ignorant POV. Lovely!!!!!
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“Mulattoes: 17% to 33% of all blacks. “The recognized leaders of the race are almost invariably persons of mixed blood, and the qualities which have made them leaders are derived certainly in part and perhaps mainly from their white ancestry.”
How many people still think this way? And will admit it!
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That is not just the 1911 Britannica’s view on black people it is white people’s view of black people.
That second to last point about the ‘mulattoes’ is seen in Hollywood all the time. Blacks with white ancestry or with appearances that seem as though they have white heritage are used as a representation of (the best of) the black race.
This is a sad condition to be in, for both blacks and whites. Black people want to get out of that perception that people have about them, and whites are quite content to keep viewing black people just as the Eleventh Edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica claim they are.
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Very good post by the way.
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Sounds like doug has this one on his table.
Doug used this as his reference book!
I’m sure the Usual Suspects will be here soon.
After they’ve had supper, a few drinks, and put their feet up, they will!
That Britannica entry proves one thing; There is nothing new under the sun. This reads like an iteration of the HBD crowd, give or take several decades.
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Yep…The more some things change, the more other things stay the same.
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“morals: Crime rate is the “best available index of moral progress or retrogression”. In 1904 in the South blacks were 5.5 times more likely to be in prison than whites; in the North, 9 times. ”
**********************************
Apparently white folks back then couldn’t see cause and effect re how their racism produced these very skewed stats. Their delusional tendencies are obviously hereditary, or so it seems.
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@Sam,
Sounds like doug has this one on his table.
Darn! I was about to say that! lol
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What’s your point? People have believed all sorts of stupid crap: the flat earth, the earth the center of the universe, phologistein, bad humors and bleeding people.
Stupidity has been the one commodity that there has never been a shortage of.
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Abagond…Lawd, how I ALWAYS love your “500 words or less on anything I want!” Keep up the great work!
Demerera, MinnieB, Green…Mega-dittos all around!
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Oh jesus Green get over yourself. The narrow mindedness you claim white people have towards black people, is the same you show now. Not all whites think this way, it’s the beauty of education and knowledge. Look at a medical book, look inside a bioanthropology book it will show you a real dipiction of a human skull. If you don’t like what you see there feel free to walk or drive to the closest college and you can see the physical skulls.
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It’s actually amazing to see some of the views that some of you have on race. That we inherit a sort of prejudice did you say? Listen to yourselves, categorizing one group and excluding information. Wasn’t this what the European educational system was based on, excluding the good that came from other cultures? We always say to stop prejudice we must stop ignorancy we must stop grouping we must think as one, but how do we think as one if either side is not willing?
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The irony of course is that the believers in evolutionary theory are largely radical white liberals and “black” liberationists. They need to believe is this theory because it suggests that human nature is ultimately malleable and thus Man can alter his nature. False. The first natural law that Man strives towards Supremacy can’t be contravened without exacting universal consequence. The weakness of the white male liberal lead HBD movement is two fold. First, the typical HBDer gives no credence to the power of the homosexual nature. And secondly, he utterly refuses to see the pathology of the black collective as a spiritual sickness as opposed to genetic inferiority.
I for one thing do not believe any man “evolved” from the ape/gorilla/monkey/whatever.
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Janea…After hundreds of years of white privilege and supremacy, grinding their foot on the necks of so many “Others” – I could care less what you have to say about how we, Black folk should act and think toward whites. It’s old, and tired, and smacks of control (either controlling, or being controlled). Before trotting out that well-worn – I know I am, but what are you? BS, how ’bout working on your own loathing? As soon as we ALLunderstand, that whites need to stop acting like they’ve hit a home-run when they, without a doubt, started on third base – the better off the whole world will be.
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Matari:
That statement, and others like it, are quite common in these debates about race. And yet from a logical standpoint, the “it’s purely the result of the environment” argument is just as unproved as the “it’s purely the result of DNA” argument.
I think that one can reasonably hypothesize that generations of discrimination have contributed towards crime and other social pathologies within black communities, but the degree to which this has had an effect has yet to be determined.
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I’m not convinced dichotomous thinking will help solve the problem.
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Excellent and informative as usual. Thanks.
It is sad that some folks are so stupid, and what is sadder still, is that most of these folks are running things. Whew!
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I for one thing do not believe any man “evolved” from the ape/gorilla/monkey/whatever.
This is how man evolved Thor:
What does being descended from monkeys or apes have to do with the post?
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@ Randy
A huge thing the Britannica failed to point out is that black suspects in the South faced white judges and white juries.
Even today a hundred years later juries are still heavily white – partly because blacks are not seen as “fair-minded”. In addition most blacks do not have the money to get a good lawyer to get a somewhat fair judgement from the courts. It was even worse then. I doubt $34 would get you very far even back then.
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@Abagond
A huge thing the Britannica failed to point out is that black suspects in the South faced white judges and white juries.
Call me crazy, but I don’t think the Britannica failed. I think they left it out intentionally.
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^^^ LOL
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@Janea
Oh jesus Green get over yourself. The narrow mindedness you claim white people have towards black people, is the same you show now. Not all whites think this way, it’s the beauty of education and knowledge. Look at a medical book, look inside a bioanthropology book it will show you a real dipiction of a human skull. If you don’t like what you see there feel free to walk or drive to the closest college and you can see the physical skulls.
It’s actually amazing to see some of the views that some of you have on race. That we inherit a sort of prejudice did you say? Listen to yourselves, categorizing one group and excluding information. Wasn’t this what the European educational system was based on, excluding the good that came from other cultures? We always say to stop prejudice we must stop ignorancy we must stop grouping we must think as one, but how do we think as one if either side is not willing?
If anyone here is showing narrow-mindedness is you. Yes. Not all whites think this way. There is nowhere in the post that say that they do. And what do you think is being taught to whites in this nation on an average basis? In any case you missed the whole point of this entry.
Check this out. Your people have categorized us for centuries, and it’s still being done to this day. So, if white people get to do so, why is it wrong for us to do the same to you. Why is it wrong for this or any other outlet to highlight the troubled past of the white/European civilization when it came to their dysfunctional (for lack of a better term) relationship with blacks/Africans?
If you believe that the European educational system was based on excluding certain information, why don’t you take it up with the people who use it to this day like the American educational system?
And finally, how can we think as one if one side is not willing. News flash! Humanity is no monolithic group. We can’t all possibility have a hive mind. So, stop trying to “Borg” us.
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One of the most damning things about this article is that it is only a stone’s throw away from what the scientific racists of the HBD crowd are STILL saying. That means their “science” is in fact pseudoscience: a true science would have made a bit more progress than that in a hundred years.
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@ Janea
First, there are most certainly white people who still believe this stuff. The racial flat-earthers, like Doug1.
Second, most of the others seem to be much closer to this than they let on with their colour-blind I-don’t-see-race front. Whites in the back of their mind STILL think of apes when they see black people – even if they do not know what a Camper Line is. They STILL use the crime rate like it proves something about the inborn nature of black people – and they STILL twist those numbers.
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@ BadWolf
I wish I could write it off that easily.
The 1911 Britannica represented the respectable if somewhat old-fashioned opinions of the white middle-class in the American North and Britain. Even the term they used – little-n “negro” and not “Negro” or “coloured” – was the white middle-class term of the time.
Much of this is no longer respectable opinion in those same circles – yet it is pretty clear that most White Americans are more racist than they let on. Something I have learned the hard way. So their true, deep-down opinions are somewhere between this, which is a sort of starting point, and the front they present. Just where they are on that scale, where the bell curve of opinions peaks, is a matter of debate.
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Abagond said:
To the extent that this situation presents, one could certainly claim a potential impact on conviction rates. I would just caution anyone to avoid the tempting, but fallacious conclusion that this (and other) factors conclusively explains the current crime rate.
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Herneith,
What’s the point?
The point is that up until very recently the “black” liberationist (abagond) and the white evolutionist (doug1) were pretty much on the same page. Man evolved from lower primate and some men just happened to “evolve” more than others.
If you believe that “man” is simply a point in the long line of common descent then what offense can you really take when one white man points out the slower “evolution” of another black man?
Or, is there “equal” evolution?
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I added this to the post:
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Randy,
“And yet from a logical standpoint, the “it’s purely the result of the environment” argument is just as unproved as the “it’s purely the result of DNA” argument.”
****************************************
You seem to be in that hazy, mind numbing “clueless” state again.
Think … look at the Black Codes/Jim Crow era, look at Slavery By Another Name when black children and adults were arrested and convicted for anything the local white club could conjure up. Once they began arrested blacks in great numbers they had to invent reasons and excuses for doing so, like blacks are criminal, violent, Look at what’s still happening today in a very biased and WHITE corporate driven prison-criminal injustice slave labor complex that steers young black and brown children into its pipelines – for control of the black and brown masses, and for profit.
None of what’s happening is either accidental, or coincidental.
Black people are, and have been, set up to be the negative reflection of white people.
There’s an abundance of white criminals who are 10,000X worse than Wesley Snipes, Sherry Peel Jackson, Micheal Vick and Marion Jones, yet have never seen the inside of a jail, much less a court room.
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It all boils down to cheap (or damn-near free) labor. Otherwise, the countless Africans abducted, sold off, worked and bred like pack mules would never have been imported from their home nations.
And to keep people from sympathizing with their plight and banding together on a socioeconomic front, the wealthy and landed used the visual differences between blacks and whites to keep them divided, filling their heads with tales and false rationale for blacks’ supposed inferiority to whites. Poor whites were encouraged to look down on blacks, so they’d always have someone else to take their anger out on when they were looked down on by their wealthier white brethren.
The contents of the 1911 Britannica concerning “negros” is just part and parcel of the same old same old story peddled to millions of receptive, hazed and mind-numbed people who 1)don’t want to consider themselves as “bad people” in regards to ethnic relations and 2)genuinely believe blacks to be deserving of their negative status somehow, even if they don’t believe themselves to be “racist”.
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Thordaddy – you never offer any evidence to back up what you say. You are very lucky that people put up with your rambling nonsense.
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@Abagond,
evolutionary plane: low: measurements of their skulls and bones show that they are closer to apes than to white people
…Whites in the back of their mind STILL think of apes when they see black people – even if they do not know what a Camper Line is. They STILL use the crime rate like it proves something about the inborn nature of black people – and they STILL twist those numbers.
Come to think of it, I’ve seen it up front at work.
I’ve been told by some black female children that this white girl has been calling them monkeys. I had to tell her what that really meant. She must’ve thought that it was cute and funny, but I told her how people refer to black people as monkeys which is offensive, not cute. So, after that brief conference, I let her go.
A minute and a half later, I hear that she’s going it again! I told her that if it happens again, she will get in trouble. After that final warning, she stopped…or so it seems. I haven’t gotten anymore complaints about her.
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Genetically speaking black people have the greatest diversity, and comparing one black person with one white person shows just as much genetic diversity as comparing a black person with a black person or a white person with a white person given they’re not blood related.
I wish this post was about who wrote it, who was the publisher, what social ties did they have, what political ties did they have.
The views on moral, leadership and intelligence are clearly tainted. It actually proves that science works, cause any sane person wouldn’t believe this anymore. But it does prove that science has it’s flaws of providing an absolute prove. It’s only absolute in the sense that it is regarded as the absolute truth at that time, no matter if the knowlegde on the subject increases.
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@thordaddy:
Evolution theory does not say that man is just one point on a chain from monkeys to man. It says that a man is just one primate among others biologically, as it is. All these primates have evolved during millions of years from more common beginings. How lucky we are that the genetics have proven this beyond any doubt. You and a chimpanzee have 98,3% same genes. Biologically that makes you guys brothers or cousins.
One thing you “race realists” and HBDers should really do is get some education, like the basics of Darwins theory and what has been discovered since his days. It could really open your eyes.
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Sam,
I don’t believe in “descent with modification.” I’m not a HBDer. If radical white self-annihilators like yourself bothered to read beyond this blog you would see that I have been very critical of the LIBERAL HBD movement and its attempt to be “racist” without being “white Supremacist.”
You are “free” to confine yourself to modern evolutionary theory. I simply don’t have to.
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@ Abagond,
For me this post is invaluable. It is proof positive that any expert that puts forwards conclusions about the inherent nature of others instead of arguements should be criticized relentlessly.
All of these conclusions about Blacks are coming from what is supposed to be the foremost archive of scholarly knowledge. At that time, knowledge wasn’t dispersed as it is now. It was concentrated and perpetuated through monolithic catalogues like Britannica. Imagine how many college and university students were engrained with these sorts of superstitions that were posing as facts. Then went on to be governmental figures, shape public policy, or work in research and development. It’s hardly a surprise that we live in a world with tea partiers. They and their kind were educated in the worst kind of misinformation.
On another note:
1911 – Two generations apart from us today. Blacks were given 39 times less pay than Whites.
Imagine the heavy toll that must have played on Blacks mental as well as economic well-being. That sort of deprivation doesnt just start and end in that generation. It reverberates through generations. The rockefellers of today wouldn’t be billionaires if their ancestors hadn’t been part of a colonial and imperial empire and tore the resources from others illegally and building wealth and monopolies. They would be like any other White Joe Blow.
This social reality should lay waste to the myth of the American dream. Inequity becomes systemic and has the potential to breed more inequity and reduce the chances that each subsequent generation has.
Yet Blacks survived and were able to create fortunes and futures for their descendants. Talk about exceptionalism. The true story of America should be about Black perseverance and exceptionalism. To shrug off the systemic persecution and still accomplish much and prove resilient to daily obstacles and abuse.
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@ thordaddy:
If you believe that “man” is simply a point in the long line of common descent then what offense can you really take when one white man points out the slower “evolution” of another black man?
Thing is, that’s not how evolution works – neither whites, blacks or anyone else are “more” evolved than each other. Evolution is a branching tree, not a long line.
The irony of course is that the believers in evolutionary theory are largely radical white liberals and “black” liberationists.
… oh, and virtually every scientist in the entire world.
But I’m sure you know better, don’t you?
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@eurasiansensation:
“and virtually every scientist in the entire world.”
Yes, and the emphasis on the word scientist.
@thordaddy:
You can belive anything you wish and it shows i your replys. But thing is that when you start to make statements about certain scientific things, it would be good to know what one is talking about. Like the simple basics of the evolution theory, like what it means, how did come about, what does it say etc.
@jt:
“The true story of America should be about Black perseverance and exceptionalism. To shrug off the systemic persecution and still accomplish much and prove resilient to daily obstacles and abuse.”
Yes, and that is one true story. The problem is how to tell it, how to break the mythology of America (=USA) to the larger population. It is slowly coming to part but the old Myth is still prevailing in schools from the “pilgrims” to the “land of the free” etc.
@brothawolf:
I’ve met white people who are truly surprised when I tell them that they are 98,3% chimpanzees. And that is a biologcal fact. As a matter of fact, if you look at the different chimpanzee populations there are some pretty familar features with us humans: different skin colors, different “cultures”, different “languages” etc.
Those whites who call black people as monkeys or apes do not realize that they belong to the same spieces and, if we look at this purely from the biological sense, are just primates as well. So it is pure racism and nothing else.
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sam,
The truth of evolution does not a priori invalidate HBD claims. Quite the contrary. Natural selection may indeed have caused geographically separate groups to develop their own specialized adaptations. Examples of these adaptations a readily observed in human morphology.
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what’s the point of saying this, when it’s all bullshit from 100 years ago
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My god, it’s scary! When I think that it was supposed to be scientific research…Yeah, scary!!
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@ Dee,
The point is to see how ideological science can be at any point in history, now as much as back then. Questioning the suppositions from which it is based is the only way to see it for what it is. Science is usually accepted because the authority, and objectivity it is supposed to connote. As we can see with this example, this is hardly the truth.
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The Britannica thing was just one of many attempts to dehumanize and “other” black people in order to justify abuses carried out by whites. This is still happening today. As someone said on another thread, it’s a lot easier to mistreat black people if you are able to convince yourself that they are not human or fully human. During slavery, whites held to the belief that blacks did not have souls. If one has no soul, then one is nothing but an animal.
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Exactly – I was noticing that as well.
Why do people keep trotting out the tired “Man didn’t evolve from apes” nonsense? That has never been said. What has been said, is that man and other primates share the same common ancestor. Just like modern dogs didn’t evolve from wolves – they share the same common ancestor. It’s like the branches of a tree – then again, I just realized who made the statement. When your family tree doesn’t branch, well…’nuff said! 😎
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@randy:
“The truth of evolution does not a priori invalidate HBD claims.”
Perhaps, but genetics does. Without any doubt. There is only one human race.
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Abagond
I’ve been quietly reading this post with all the comments for 2 days now thinking of what to say. It’s becoming increasingly clear to me that all those years I’ve been theorizing why some whites do what they do and act the way they act…has been just that. An act.
First I want to say to the white commenters here that agree and argue FOR this: You should be ashamed of yourselves. This isn’t 1912 when we ‘didn’t know any better’. It’s the 21 century. What excuses do you have for obvious racism and a refusal to change your mindset?
Second: You are no better or worse off than ANY human being on the planet.
So you have white skin. Whoopee-fucking-shit.
I know that your skin makes you feel good in America, and perhaps only in America. But how can you honestly look yourselves in the mirror and feel right with God knowing that you have a terrible mental defect?
You know the way you think is wrong.
WE know you know it’s wrong.
So what’s stopping you from making an honest effort to change?
Are you so indoctrinated into believing these lies that you don’t know what to do without them? I constantly vacillate between contempt and pity for you.
I feel sorry that you have one trait that you based your entire existence on.
How sad for you. You need science to prove your excellence. We don’t need science, we are excellent because we’ve survived you!
Blacks were beaten down from day damn one. We had no choice but to develop a resilience that lasted through the centuries. Any evidence of fitness and greatness should be written about us! And you know what? Deep down, you know that. That’s why you are here.
Angry.
Sullen.
Eager to disprove.
And, a little envious.
Admit it, something about us boils your blood, doesn’t it?
I feel bad for you.
Tomorrow morning, you could be wiped out easily. You’ve never show any resistance to strife. You’ve ridden our skirttails because you can’t make it on your own. But that day is slowly coming to an end.
You need prayer.
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@ Bulanik:
Thanks! Sometimes a short and sweet classic says it all…
@ Truthbetold:
Very well-stated.
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I find the mokey/ape-like pictures and comparisons to black people offensive, as much as I think apes and monkeys are cute and everything.
What is true hair? Different textures of hair range throughout skin colours and ethnicities.
In terms of crime, black people commit crime just like white people do. The difference I would think is fairness of judgement and then discrimination, hence why you would have more black people in jail or prosecuted. Also less black people in the justice system, so a higher chance of being found guilty due to discrimination.
The IQ thing all depends on a number of factors including exposure to education and a number of other factors as well. Having a low IQ or high IQ is not limited to race or colour.
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@ Randy said:
“I think that one can reasonably hypothesize that generations of discrimination have contributed towards crime and other social pathologies within black communities, but the degree to which this has had an effect has yet to be determined.”
Randy, any pathology that plagues the black community was learned from your ancestors.
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truthbetold…what sepultura13 said! Thanks for sharing.
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@ Happiness
Doug will be here very shortly to disprove you.
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Doug1 is taking a vow of silence about IQs but I will allow him to talk about it here, at least for a while.
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@ Randy
America has 25% of the world’s prisoners but only 5% of its people. It throws people in prison at five times the rate that it did in the 1970s. That should tell you that they are being used for something other than what other countries use them for. And that it has very little to do with black people’s supposed criminal tendencies.
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Modern evolutionary theory can be simply known as “descent with modification.” Meaning, just as the physicist pulls back far enough to get a universe-wide view of “nothing,” the evolutionist can pull back far enough and see a “line of descent.” He gets “closer” to see his vaunted “tree” and all its “branches.”
That the black man and white man share a common ancestor SAYS NOTHING as to how they have “evolved” from that common ancestor.
The believers in MET have to pretend that from that shared ancestor both black man and white man “evolved” EQUALLY. And of course they have “evolved” equally if you see evolution as an unchanging process, but the end results are most definitely not “equal.”
Is this true? False?
And who here can REALLY PROVE that they are under the evolutionary process other than just asserting it?
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@Thordaddy
The believers in MET have to pretend that from that shared ancestor both black man and white man “evolved” EQUALLY.
Does this mean that POC or those that may be perceived as racially diverse or ambiguous, could fall anywhere between these two extremes?
Surely this would be difficult to determine as many people hide/are in denial about their racial/ethnic heritage so might lie to ensure that they fall at the ‘correct’ end of the scale i.e. white. There are also other factors that would make this very difficult too of course.
So, if this is based on areas such as comprehension, emotional development, personal integrity and the ability to decipher and understand amongst other things i.e. racial/ethnic heritage, where do you think you fall in this evolutionary chain?
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Demerera said to thordaddy:
“where do you think you fall in this evolutionary chain?”
Oh, come on!
This is too easy!
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Abagond,
Didn’t whites once believe that they were also physically superior to black folks?
By the time 1911 arrived, white scientists and America’s white population apparently had to back-pedal from that specious belief. That probably didn’t sit well with them, not being able to include THAT “fact” in their Britannica science encyclopedia. H/T to the deceased Jack Johnson, the AA boxer and hero, for being largely, if not single-handedly, responsible for dispelling that myth.
Re our supposed advantages over whites – where does that better sense of direction/topography black superiority thing come from??
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@truthbetold
As I am a mere outsider to Thordaddy i.e. a non American, I defer to his obviously radical, autonomous, and therefore totally accurate and without prejudice POV to get this definitive response and thus ‘understand’ these things.
its odd really as he asks And who here can REALLY PROVE that they are under the evolutionary process other than just asserting it? Well, as he is American and thus so intellectually superior you’d think he’d know wouldnt you…. 😉
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Well, this post explains a lot. I think certain people still adhere to these ridiculous beliefs. I’ve heard all of these “arguments” in support of the black man’s supposed inferiority.
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Some chimps are further along the evolutionary chain than some people it seems
😉
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Demerera,
I have God-ordained free will. The evolutionary process means NOTHING to me. Those who wish to be subservient to such process may do as they wish. Just don’t ask them to actually prove that they are under an UNCHANGEABLE evolutionary process.
BTW, is our “Catholic” host a believer in “descent with modification?”
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Or, is there “equal” evolution?
Sure, haven’t you seen ‘Planet of the Apes”? My favourite line is when Charlton Heston says; Get you hands off me you filthy ape!’
And who here can REALLY PROVE that they are under the evolutionary process other than just asserting it?
I can. Do you have a couple of days?
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Aba
Why does Thordaddy pester you on your faith?
Is he jealous or something? Why the connotation that black and Catholic cannot exist? I believe in both Christ and the Great Spirit.
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@truthbetold
Why the connotation that black and Catholic cannot exist?
In the case of this individual, I think from the ramblings of Thordaddy, that he has labelled ALL black people as being ‘pro abortion’ something that the Catholic church is against which is potentially why he keeps bringing up the same old thing again and again and again and again…and…well, you get the picture 🙂 . It seems he wants a definitive response from abagond on his stance and shamelessly pursues his answer, often derailing and then undermining his own commentary unwittingly because he has his own odd agenda.
Embarrasingly, he doesnt care to qualify whether this statement is accurate or true, yet he bandys it about like its fact in the hope maybe that if he says it often enough that at least one BP will concur with his assertion.
People will reveal what they want to when they want to and if they want to. They shouldnt be badgered to do this. Just like I am intrigued by the fact that people thought that Thordaddy was latino which he refutes, I guess he doesnt want to reveal his racial/ethnic background otherwise I am sure we would have heard this by now. Thats his business but, its a shame that this respect is not reciprocated in this instance.
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Truth be told…
Then you’re a Supremacist just as a believing Catholic would be.
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[…] Black People According To the 1911 Britannica by Abagond […]
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@Bulanik
Thordaddy hides, and may well be just another self-hating Hispanic who wants to be white….yawn…
I guess…. Maybe he thinks any non-Americans like moi wouldn’t understand his racial/ethnic background
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Demerera
You waste your time looking for my “agenda.”
I’m white. I strive towards Supremacy. Thus, in your formulation, I’m a “white supremacist.”
Ironically, in your “liberated” world, a “white Supremacist” is a icky and evil thing. Which is to say that there are NO BLACK SUPREMACISTS.
This very fact then suggests that Abagond’s “Catholicism” literally MEANS NOTHING. It’s just a cloaking device to hide one’s radical autonomy.
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Demerera,
All you need to do to understand me is recognize that YOU BELIEVE that Supremacy = degeneracy and I believe Supremacy = Supremacy. Thus, whereas I am literally begging for the black Supremacist to step forward and lead his people out of their spiritual sickness, you are wasting your time doing all you can to snuff out the “white Supremacist.”
Who is right and who is self-evidently wrong?
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Bulanik,
No… Cornbread white…
Well, after 15 years in SoCal, I do tan quite easily.
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Demerera,
My belief in Supremacy IN NO WAY obligates YOU to do a single thing other than refrain from thwarting the exercise of my moral autonomy.
OTOH, your belief in anti-Supremacy REQUIRES a global submission OF ALL. Your ideology is AN ALL-INCLUSIVE IDEOLOGY (think jihadist) Meaning, your beliefs CAN’T BE TRUE unless we are ALL SUBSUMED.
You’re trying to be the “slave master” as are all radical liberals.
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Abagond,
You’re a “Buster” with commenting policies that are as arbitrary and unpredictable as you happen to be personally.
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@ Demerera
What is he taking about?
Do you remotely understand what he is saying?
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@ Thordaddy
You are not even remotely on topic.
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Truthbetold,
Do you love the black Supremacist or not?
Same to you, Demerera…
And how about you, Peanut???
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Abagond,
Bull…
Does “evolution” make room for the black Supremacist?
Do YOU believe in “descent with modification,” Catholic?
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@thordaddy
Against my own advise…
Please remember to take your pills when you come here.
I’m at a loss for words…
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@ thordaddy
Fuck you. You are banned. You repeatedly derail my threads and show little interest in remaining on topic. Screw that. Go mumble your deranged shit in the subway.
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I think this is very important (sorry if it was already mentioned, I didn’t read all the replies):
intelligence: “the mental inferiority of the negro to the white or yellow races is a fact”. Black children were “sharp, intelligent and full of vivacity, but on approaching the adult period a gradual change set in. The intellect seemed to become clouded, animation giving place to a sort of lethargy, briskness yielding to indolence. ”
Translation: there is no difference between the intelligence level of white and black children. I have no idea what were their theories about intelligence back in the days, but I doubt they believed you can learn intelligence later if you were, say, mentally disabled. So by admitting black children were equal to white children, they are basically admitting there are no differences between races (at least this is what their text implies, though it’s definitely not the point they wanted to make).
They say blacks become different (for example, lethargic) later in life, but they don’t even suggest that might be because, I don’t know, blacks have a much different life conditions than whites have? Similarly, English upperclassmen used to believe (still believe?) poor people are naturally dumb and they shouldn’t be allowed to reproduce (ok, not all of them, but social Darwinists certainly have).
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With all due respect Abagond, “it’s about damn time” that you put your foot down and banned Thordaddy. That derailing, tin-foil hat wearing, moron strayed off topic from his first post here. He was a worthless addition to this blog. To their credit, at least fools like “Red Herring Randy” and “Degenerate1” can at least make posts that are (on rare occasions) relevant to the actual topic. With the latter being quite close to Thordaddy at times. Just swap someone who injects the same 3 phrases into every post he makes with someone who makes pointlessly long diatribes that are filled with the most laughable attempts at superiority posturing.
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Sorry folks, but that was quite satisfying!
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*Does his happy dance, the dance he hasn’t done since he was two, in response to Abagond’s banning of Thordaddy.*
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Wow @ Abagond putting ‘thordaddy’ in his place and out!
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Finally! It’s about time. 😀 Thordaddy’s name should’ve been called thorndaddy because he was a pain in the ass from the getgo. Oh, well. Serves him right. Buh-bye thordaddy. I can’t say I’ll miss your rants.
Signed,
The Non-American 😀
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Who’s your Thordaddy?
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Claps and does the cabbage patch…
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Now if President Obama could take a lesson from Abagond’s book, we might get somewhere in this country. Great move!
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“Ironically, in your “liberated” world, a “white Supremacist” is a icky and evil thing.”
Well, it is.
I think thordaddy really should go back to school. That is not ironic nor sarcastic.
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One observation, IF the world conquering group of nations had been the nations corresponding to the slave exporting nations in our reality, their equivalents of Charles Darwin and Wallace would have had it much easier to use the example of the European as a representative of more primitive and ape like Man to sell the case that evolution does occur in man.
That said “primitive” is not bad, it just means that it is an old, ancestral characteristic.
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Perhaps its how, unlike the various Native American tribes that one existed on this land, whites have been nowhere near as sucessful in their desire to contain and eliminate blacks once their “usefulness” as bonded labor ran out. The resilience and steadfastness of black Americans is something that irks the white American collective til this very day.
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What person thinks being a white supremacist is a positive thing except, of course, a fellow white supremacist?
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Abagond
re: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/02/28/black-people-according-to-the-1911-britannica/#comment-115300
Any input, thoughts?
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Sorry, a little late on the Thordaddy-is-finally-banned bandwagon:
Woohoooooooooooooooooo
LOL.
Okay, now that that’s out of the way, can we let’s examine how much of what’s in the Britannica 1911 is still at work today.
I.E.: That Blacks are a lesser species than whites:
http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2012/03/01/montana_chief_federal_judge_richard_ceball_forwarded_email_about_presdient_obama_was_racist.html
This is from 2012! The grip that these antiquated ideas seem to have over white culture is like a stranglehold. Straight from 1911 to 2012.
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@ Matari
Though whites tend to see blacks as a screwed up branch of the human race, an earlier defective model, God’s mistake, they are willing to give some ground, especially in regard to more physical, animal-like traits – like running, jumping and having sex. Even HBDers do that. And the 1911 Britannica. And Thomas Jefferson in the 1780s:
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“This is from 2012! The grip that these antiquated ideas seem to have over white culture is like a stranglehold. Straight from 1911 to 2012.”
***********************************
JT
“Stranglehold” is probably THE most appropriate word, as it has been a frequent cause of death of black males in police custody – as well as what historically/traditionally and currently happens, figuratively, to an overwhelming number of black people who have the misfortune of entering into the criminal court system and finding themselves and their fate in the hands of racist judges – like the one mentioned above – who apparently was so comfortable in his “backstage racism” made a big careless *OOPS* by engaging in behavior that put his undercover racism on the front-stage.
*hmmm…where’s Randy at??*
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Abagond
Okay, I get it now.
According to these “progressive” (sic) white thinkers, blacks are more *feral* creatures, thereby having a more acute sense of topography and sense of direction.. **SMH**
LOL @ how they assigned their “white” race to this hypocritical and phony nonsense: “tender delicate mixture of sentiment and sensation.”
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@ Matari,
The veil is coming lose on this sham of a justice system. Im ready for it to be torn right off forever. End the prison industrial complex now!
One other thing that came to mind is: this “judge” studied through school for how many years and practices for how many decades. He didn’t becomeculturally conscious throughout all that education???
System failure!
Also, then he tries to excuse bigotted slander of Blacks on the fact that there is a Black president. As if the Black president has anything to do with his foolishness besides that he’s a big white fool in a large seat of power that is overshadowed by a strong, genius, politically magnificent black man.
Then to add insult to injury: how many of these racist emails are getting archived. It would be absolutely interesting to find out how many of these emails are going out and what is their content (besides racist diarrhea masked in anti-democrat rhetoric.)
THe ironic face of conservatism.
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Jefferson believed blacks suffered less than whites:
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Bulanik
“Weren’t black people defined as “anthropoid” in earlier editions?
Anthropoids being a brutish semi-man, a kind of sub-order of primate, with abnormally long arms, that when, in the standing position reached the knee area?
Weren’t the brains of black men supposedly lighter in weight than white men, and closer in size and density to that of the gorilla or gibbon?
Wasn’t the cranium supposed to be made from extremely thick bone?
Wasn’t black skin also much thicker than white skin, making black people less sensitive to pain? ”
*****************************
LOL again..
Either I entirely missed that memo, or it was received but summarily dismissed as foolishness (like a virus, trojan) and wasn’t permitted to take residence on my personal hard-drive.
IOW, I must have forgot. : ))
But I do vaguely recall that whites once thought that they were stronger, faster, etc than “others.”
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Morning folks,
One thing to remember about this filth:
It was written as a way to make slavery more excusable.
The less human blacks were presented, the less guilty they felt.
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@ dee
Just FIVE years ago James Watson, co-discoverer of DNA, said that he was:
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@ Matari
You might be thinking of Jesse Owens at the 1936 Berlin Olympics.
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Folks
Do you think that whites ever gave a thought as to how their own racism would later on effect them as a group?
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@ truth,
No. Whites are typically shortsighted in this vein. They committ the actions but are unprepared for the blowback. Unfortunately. If they were they would be less likely to publish specious work like this encyclopedia entry.
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Re:Thordaddy,
In the words of Queen “Another one bites the dust”
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Randy—
First of all what evidence is there that blacks are underrepresented on juries? Even if so it may have to do with their rate of voting. I know that in NYC jury duty letters are sent out to those that voted in the last election.
Second blacks don’t just have higher conviction rates. The US Dept. of Justice does crime victimization studies where they survey large samples of the population as to what crimes they might have been victimized and among other things what ethnicity they believe committed them against them. Those show the same or actually a little higher per person black perpetrator statistics.
The simple undeniable fact is that blacks commit crime at vastly higher rates per person than whites or Asians, and a good lot higher than Hispanics.
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@ JT
Some days I understand this, other days I struggle with it.
I flip-flop constantly on how I feel, think and the level of anger, resentment, forgiveness and understanding.
Some days I feel I may go mad, the Tazmanian Devil mad, then other days, God’s spirit guides me towards understanding and forgiveness.
I drive myself crazy. No wonder I work from home. Easier to handle without the constant reminders.
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abagond–
Yes he did. And he was right. That’s what all the science shows. It’s an inescapable fact that blacks are much less intelligent than whites or NE Asians (or the S. Asian Indians we let into this country). 90 years of IQ testing has shown that. 40 and more years of trying like hell to alter that fact through various educational and environmental changes and interventions and social science experimentation have shown that gap to be very intractable and so far impossible to narrow in any durable way. Much of it looks to be genetic and a lot of the rest cultural and other “environmental” feedbacks from the genetic, but probably not all.
I don’t really see the social imperative to do so myself. Individuals aren’t born equal in mental or other abilities, which must the races be? In any event, they aren’t.
And no I don’t base these conclusions on backward looking science summed up in a generalist 1911 encyclopedia, even though it was the most eminent one of it’s day.
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@ Doug
Hi Doug!!!!
Nice to hear from you at last!
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JT:
That email is not necessarily about race. I read it as an impugnment of the morals of the president’s mother. Were the woman to be Italian and the child a ginger, the joke would still read the same way, and still be grossly offensive.
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The more things change, the more things stay the same, 1912-2012-“Happy Anniv. Britannica” *SMH*
Bout time, Abagond! You have the patience of Job, re:T[Hor]adaddy –So long, farewell, auf Wiedersehen, good night 🙂
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I most admit in this age of abundant internet accessible information that some people should still believe in the inferiority of Black/Africa people is beyond me.
The evidence is clear for anyone to see this assertion just does not stand up.
What is more questionable is the supposed superiority of white people. Something which the late Thorddady was never really able to supply evidence for.
I wonder what those same mis-informed white superiority proponents of 1911 along with those of today would make of the discovery of this Turkish family:
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@ Kwamla
A condition called spina bifida can cause this.
It’s not rare nor is it a ‘shame’.
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Doug1:
I think you misunderstood my comment. There are 2 common narratives when discussing the prevalence of social pathologies within black communities:
Endogenous: i.e. black people are genetically predisposed to these pathologies
Exogenous: i.e. these pathologies result from historical discrimination and other related factors
Often in discussions involving race, you’ll hear the exogenous argument offered as a counter to the endogenous argument regarding the etiology of social pathologies.
My point to Abagond and others is that even if the exogenous arguments are applicable, that doesn’t necessarily imply that the endogenous arguments are false.
In other words, you’re not moving towards a greater truth if you attempt to counter one fallacious statement with another fallacious statement.
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@ Truthbetold
If you watch the video this is not what the Turkish scientists were saying. This discovery was actually kept secret for a while. This is not about spina bifida.
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Human, quadruped: Uner Tan Syndrome,
http://blogs.plos.org/neuroanthropology/2010/09/03/human-quadruped-uner-tan-syndrome-part-1/
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Do you think that whites ever gave a thought as to how their own racism would later on effect them as a group?.
No they didn’t. They don’t care. If it affects them in any manner, they are for the most part oblivious to it. If they have an inkling as to its’ effect and everything is going great, they don’t care. When things get rough, they experience some sort of epiphany, or life altering occurrence they may. Most don’t.
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@ Bulanik
What is curious about this particular study is where it originated (or did not originate) from. It certainly wasn’t Africa. And I have not come across any similar cases originating from this continent either. Though I am sure if they had this would not be such a closely kept secret as this find in Turkey initially was.
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truthbetold…“…nor is it a ‘shame’” – neither is sickle cell as Bulanik mentioned above. My cousin died of the disease at 47 and I don’t remember any ‘shame’ being attached to it in our family.
Having sickle cell, as it turns out, proved a boon to slave-owners in colonial, America because carriers of sickle cell, which uniquely affects those whose ancestors are from malaria-ridden areas such as Africa (people from India, the Mediterranean and the Middle East also), are malaria-resistant and therefore, less likely to die, or become violently ill from the bites of all those malaria-carrying mosquitoes – particularly in the early days of the SC Lowcountry where they planted rice in the marshes.
So, in addition to stealing the women with the gendered-knowledge of growing rice (particularly from West Africa) which made them rich, they got the added benefit of more productivity in the fields, which in turn meant even more money for them – less sick slaves/more work they could do. Additionally, since white folk lacked that particular medical “advantage,” they could enjoy decreased exposure to the mosquitoes that were making millions of the new settlers deathly ill – or dead. Whether a white family “owned slaves” or not, is irrelevant to me, seeing as they ALL benefitted from slave labor in one way or another.
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Sickle cell is the genetic disease that occurs when an individual has two copies of a particular gene rather than one from one parent. Inheriting one copy doesn’t cause the disease but does make such persons considerably more resistant to malaria.
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Randy—
I think the MUCH higher per capita black crime rate is due to both genetic and to cultural/environmental factors, like many human traits or predispositions.
Blacks both have much lower IQ’s than whites and NE Asians, and are more aggressive, partly due to somewhat more testosterone and a good many more testosterone receptors. Both are partly and probably mostly genetic, but also have cultural and other feedbacks and other non genetic causes. Violent crime seems more attractive to those that can’t easily make a lot of fast money in other easy ways. As well blacks have shorter time preferences that whites which is correlated but not 100% with IQ and probably also is partly but strongly geneticly caused.
Especially since the sixties blacks have also tened culturally to have more anti-social attitudes than whites.
As well the 72% rate of illegitimacy among black women and higher black divorce rates as well result in far more blacks boys growing up fatherless for most or all of their childhood.
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Oooohhh…I missed it! Another banning! 😆
@ Leigh:
“Thorndaddy” – YES!! You called it! 😎
Reminds me of the song “Thorn In My Side” by Annie Lennox…
* does a cartwheel *
WOOT!
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This is how I see it.
Slavery and the efftect of racism has continued to be a dominant force in the destruction of the world, particularly the slow demise of America.
Examples of this are:
1. The housing burst.
2. Forclosures.
3. Joblessness
4. Crime.
5. Poverty
6. A lack of affordable healthcare
7. Education or a lack thereof
Most Americans, especially white Americans, are so blinded and strangulated by their disease, they can’t see beyond it.
My friends call it the Jim Jones Syndrome.
And yes, I’m waiting for Doug to challenge ALL of these.
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No. European explorers, scholars and intellectuals were impressed by China and Japan and to a somewhat lesser extent India when the first encountered those high civilizations, and have been ever since.
Not so much by ssAfrica though.
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@ Bulanik
I was watching a PBS special on the former Grand Dragon of an Alabaman KKK group. He traced his lineage to find that both Great grand parents were mulattoes who passed as white!
The shock, shame and anger he exhibited was heartfelt and satisfying.
This is so common amongst proud white groups in America. Shake the family tree hard enough and a bunch of Negroes fall out.
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For this to be “racially” significant, you would have to prove that this is true universally among all Blacks on the entire planet. Do you have the info to make this claim
I notice you didn’t answer my question on the Off Topic thread on your dubious claims of IQ and race. Care to elaborate?
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You’re correct, As I said, my cousin died from the disease. The “sickle-shaped” red blood cells, due to an abnormal hemoglobin, interfere with blood flow causing excrutiating pain and eventually, organ damage, which is what happened to her..
Both her father and her mother (my grandfather’s sister) were carriers of one gene EACH (as are others in my family). Unfortunately, she inherited one FROM EACH, resulting in her contracting the disease. And since there was NO testing for sickle cell, neither when her parents married, nor when she was born (wonder why?) – no one knew it until she was diagnosed. The testing is still not mandatory nationwide, however there are some states that do make it mandatory.
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@ Someguy
Much like Thordaddy, Doug or Randy cannot answer much.
Their reasoning stems from linking wikipedia, which anyone can edit, to pointing out how fantastic they are by claims of invention.
Oh, and they are smarter because of snow…or something like that.
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@ Deb
I’m sorry for your loss.
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This post was directly partly about claimed differences in intelligence between blacks and whites and abagond has said he’s gonna give me a pass from his banning threat to talk about IQ on this post in a comment above, so I’ll offer this.
Recent genetic sequencing research has PROVEN that at least half of differences in IQ between individuals are associated with small differences in the genes between them in a large number of locations, which cumulate to have large effects. Yes this is correlation but it’s also causation. Cause and effect can only run in one direction here. Here’s the write up in the left leaning Brit paper The Guardian. Of course this research needs to be replicated but I’m sure it will be.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/aug/09/genetic-differences-intelligence
Fluid intelligence = IQ.
Note this is a FLOOR percentage. Limitations in the capacity of the specialized sequencing multiprocessors used limit the fineness of detail than can be detected. With more powerful sequencing processors which are coming soon, it’s very possible the 51% of IQ differences caused by genetic differences will go up. I don’t think the article mentions that, but the research abstract which they link does.
This sequencing research was about how much genetic differences cause individual IQ differences, not racial ones. However it’s very unlikely that group racial differences in IQ for those living in the same society won’t be at least as much due to genetics are individual ones. In individual differences there’s among other things a considerable amount of chance or happenstance involved. When comparing large groups chance is canceled out by very large numbers.
Until this research the evidence for a partly genetic basis for differences in IQ have come principally from identical and fraternal twin studies and from trans racial adoption studies. This research is even more conclusive and difficult (or impossible) to successfully attack.
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truthbetold–
A ridiculous and very dim assertion on it’s face for which you offer no evidence whatsoever.
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SomeGuy-
That doesn’t even make any sense. Do you understand statistics AT ALL?
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Bulanik…Thanx for the link!
Ms Thompson said there was no national screening programme. “It has been seen as a black issue but increasingly white people are carriers.”
Which is why mandatory testing here was never a concern.
The pair, who appear in the Channel 4 series Britain’s Slave Trade tomorrow, have traced their ancestry back to a Jamaican sailor who settled in Liverpool in the 18th century.
“Mrs Prior said: “Thinking there might be that history in our own family suddenly makes you think about it [the slave trade] more and how it’s had a knock-on effect to a lot more people than they probably realise or want to realise.”
Matari…LOL @ how they assigned their “white” race to this hypocritical and phony nonsense: “tender delicate mixture of sentiment and sensation.”
Hmmm…I wonder which it was in the Prior family – “an eager desire, or a tender delicate mixture of sentiment and sensation?” 😀 (Doubt they’d attach the stigma of rape to that ancestor’s child, conceived,and obviously brought into the world. But who knows?!)
True to form though, not until it knocked on her door, did Mrs. Prior “think” more about the slave trade – and EVEN THEN!, only its effects on white folk. {smdh}
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truthbetold…Thank you, appreciate your thoughtfulness.
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@ Doug, my new best friend said:
“A ridiculous and very dim assertion on it’s face for which you offer no evidence whatsoever.”
So it’s evidence you want, eh?
Doug, you DO live on Earth right?
Looking at, in particlar America, is all the proof you need.
‘Nuff said.
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Truthbetold said:
This article shows that the Snow Makes You Smarter theory goes back at least to 1911 since it gives as the evolutionary cause of low black intelligence:
Over the next 70 years white scientists would try to prove that human intelligence began outside of Africa – and fail.
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Kwamla
I don’t think very many people or at least white people in America or Europe do believe in across the board black inferiority these days. I don’t. I know of none who call themselves with some credibility race realists of HBDers who do.
African Americans (who are on average 20% white by ancestry genetic research has shown) do have considerably lower average intelligence white or NE Asians, 90 years of IQ testing has shown. West African ancestry blacks can also on average and at the most elite levels sprint faster and jump higher than whites can.
By young adulthood (the gap grows from an early age to young adulthood as the brain expands, matures and develops more complex interconnections) there is about a 15 point or one standard deviation difference, which is a lot, between blacks and whites, with the average black IQ being 85 and the average white one being 100. (The gap has closed a little, it used to be about an 18 point difference, but it’s stopped closing.) While the media don’t mention this much, none of this is controversial in the psychometric field. It’s been established fact for a long time.
This difference in average IQ becomes even more significant if one asks what percentage of blacks as opposed to whites have IQ’s above a certain threshold of IQ, due to the way the normal or bell curve distribution of IQ works. Blacks also have a somewhat narrower distribution of IQ than whites, as women do compared to men. An IQ of 125 is often taken as the threshold for someone being really bright, but not near genius. Most really accomplished doctors and lawyers and researchers or really leading journalists, and most students not getting AA in elite colleges will have IQ’s at this level or higher. 4.8% of whites have IQs that high or higher, but only 0.07% of blacks do. Some blacks do though, just not very many.
Only 12-16% (depending on what SD for blacks is used) of blacks have IQ’s at or above the white average, whereas 50% of whites do of course.
IQ differences explain most of the black white gaps in school performance, income and wealth that we see. Cultural differences explain most of the rest. Ongoing discrimination is probably a relatively small factor.
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Doug1 says: The simple undeniable fact is that blacks commit crime at vastly higher rates per person than whites or Asians, and a good lot higher than Hispanics.
Some guy says: For this to be “racially” significant, you would have to prove that this is true universally among all Blacks on the entire planet. Do you have the info to make this claim
Doug1says: That doesn’t even make any sense. Do you understand statistics AT ALL?
Hands up who is typing this from their prison cell or awaiting some kind of sentencing….come on now, fess up. You know that there arent many black people/POC on the face of this planet who has a clean record. *rolls eyes*
How odd that so called ‘intelligent’ ‘learned’ individuals continually come on here to prove that there is credence to the assertions made over 100 years ago which have been perpetuated like the proverbial broken record again and again despite ‘real life examples’ that continually prove otherwise. The same individuals who between them, interact and know zero BP in a personal sense in their day to day lives. They live in a bubble, a mere microcosom of society yet they know EVERYTHING about EVERY POC on the planet – go figure!
They do say ignorance is bliss, but I gues that there is an exception to EVERY rule….
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Abagond
Nobody really knows why whites and NE Asians are a lot smarter than blacks both in America and even more so in Africa, and a good deal smarter than most other major geographic races which tend to come in at around 90, though probably around 83-85 in India. They do however know that’s the case.
There are a lot of theories but few HBD people or race realists claim to really know. There are probably multiple reasons. Some and maybe a lot of the gap also could have occurred within the last 10,000 years, after the agricultural revolution began in some places.
The innuit btw come in well below whites and NE but well above most hunter gatherers.
That’s rubbish. There’s been a broad consensus among physical anthropologists for more than 70 years that homo sapiens sapiens (named that for his increased intelligence) originated in NE ssAfrica.
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@ Doug1
Nobody knows why you post such preposterous and fallacious nonsense and refuse to concede when you are wrong. Something that you have had ample opportunity to engage in, might i mention.
Please don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
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Abagond
“You might be thinking of Jesse Owens at the 1936 Berlin Olympics.”
*************************
Yep… AND THIS, Jefferson’s “I advance it therefore as a suspicion only, that the blacks, whether originally a distinct race, or made distinct by time and circumstances, are inferior to the whites in the endowments both of body and mind.”
Interesting, how the racists have grudgingly surrendered one lie yet tenaciously cling, even now, to the other.
Apparently, coughing up those blue pills (after they’re ingested) ain’t easy!
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JT–
What have I posted is fallacious?
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That doesn’t even make any sense. Do you understand statistics AT ALL?
Do you understand logic AT ALL? Stop dodging and justify your former statement. You always pull this kind of answer when someone corners you into admitting you are talking out of your backside.
This sequencing research was about how much genetic differences cause individual IQ differences, not racial ones.
By your own admission, this information has nothing to do with race. YOU are assigning a racial meaning to it. Not the scientists.
Again, this is nothing new. You constantly take scientific information and apply your own twisted brand of racial logic to it. You never have anything to back up your claims.
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Lest anyone forget, Doug1 posted this little gem in another thread:
Blacks are a dead weight and criminal burden on our American society. We’d be much better without this stupid but aggressive race of humans. But we’re stuck with them, absent atrocities.
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Yes, I remember when he posted that as well.Underneath all of his pseudo intellectualism lurks a monster who wishes that a group of humans were wiped off the planet.
That is why no one here will EVER take what he says seriously. Why would we listen to someone who wishes for us not to be here? What kind of logic is that and why does he come here expecting a different outcome? How does our giving him any credence whatsoever benefit us in any way? Our best interests? That is laughable. He can’t tell us anything about Black people…but he tells us everything we need to know about racist whites.
Proof that it must be a mental disease. Only a diseased mind would seek to degrade a people, justify the degradation and expect the people to be in agreement with them. o_0??
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@ Bulanik
Doug1 likes to gild the lily when it comes to his racism. I’m sure he’s not adverse to the use of accoutrement in other aspects of his life as well.
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@ SomeGuy
Thanks for that reminder. I was unsure where to start with his ludicrosity. Might as well begin with his premise for his whole theory on human beings and let everything else unravel.
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SomeGuy—
If individual IQ differences are at least 51% determined by genetic differences, it’s highly unlikely that average racial IQ differences in the same society aren’t caused at least as much by genes.
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@ SomGuy
I believe Doug1 took that statement back.
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*watching Doug1 thoughtfully*
Look at how it doggedly keeps at it. Even though we know he wants us off the planet, we are still expected to listen to him. Fascinating.
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@ Doug1,
IQ is a very complex and CONSTRUCTED figure. There is absolutely nil evidence supporting the contention that it is derived from the inheritance of genes.
Look up “Epigenesis” – it’s time to start criticizing those premises. Writing checks that your @$$ can’t cash is considered the peak of intellectual DISHONESTY.
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@ Abagond
He took it back…because it looks bad to his argument. Not because he regretted his words. The thought was there and verbalized and made tangible with his own hands. You can’t take back the truth of an emotional statement. We don’t want him to take it back. It should linger in the air like a fetid cloud over him every time he comes here expecting us to listen to his tired drivel. Let him wear his words with honor like a man.
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@ abagond
He may have taken that statement back, but that’s a HELL of a statement to utter in the first place.
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@ Abagond,
In my humble opinion, Doug’s retracted statement underlines everything that Doug writes. It all falls in line. He is a strong proponnant of racial stratification and scientific racism. Probably a segregationist. Hates the idea of a Black man being with a white woman. Undoubtedly, a gun owner. Probably came from a family background not disimilar from those views he espouses.
All around, an intellectual infant that would not disagree with the 1911 Britannica characterisation of Blacks.
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I did regret those words. It was hyperbolic and inflammatory. I’d also had a bit too much wine when I wrote them.
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I think you mean epigenetics and I don’t need to look it up. It’s simply another way evolution has changed life forms over many generations.
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What kind of wine? White whine? Sorry, I meant “wine”.
-_-
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JT–
I don’t own a gun though I have owned rifles and shotguns in the past. I grew up in exurban NY after being born in NYC to upper upper middle class parents of a moderately liberal bent. I’m not at all in favor of segregation. I’m not in favor of racial stratification but I don’t think a certain overlapping amount of it is an abomination either. I’m not trying to justify true racism through science, but I have wanted to learn the scientific truth about racial differences. I’m a genuine race realist from an HBD perspective (such as the insight that considering how evolution works, it would be remarkable if there were differences in IQ between the races. There are other differences that are way more than skin deep). I’m also interested in real differences between the sexes. I’m a gender realist as well as a race realist. I’m a fan of Heartiste/Roissy for example.
A lot of what motivated me to look first into gender differences and then racial ones is that frankly I’ve long suspected that a whole lot of feminist are “anti-racist” leftist dogma and politically correct taboos, were based on lies. I first looked into racial ones really by reading “The Bell Curve”, and then the heated, very often extensively lying leftist critiques of it, and their Murray’s rejoinder (Hernstein died just before the book came out).
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JT–
That’s a truly absurd and very ignorant statement.
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..and yet he’s here trying to convince us of our innate inferiority. What do we get from his profound insights?
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@Bulanik
It’s not enough to have white skin and then feel ‘elite’ because you share the same lack of melanin with other folk who invented stuff.
Being smart and ‘elite’ doesn’t work like that.
Yes, it seems some feel it more acutely than others. I cant think why these kind of people, after refuting anything that is positive in terms of POC cant feel comfortable in their own skin. Any thoughts? 😉
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Guys,
We can beat up on Doug but you know what?
He really believes what he says. I don’t think he’s a random ranter, like Thordaddy or Lara. He’s for real. Which is kinda scary. It makes me wonder if this is what most white Americans think when I’m safely out of earshot.
The issue is, he’s not trying to learn or change. This forum, like most on the internet, is designed as a tool where you can learn and hopefully grow as a human. So much has been done to all groups of people, we each believe our burden is greatest.
Coming here, with others who share stories and insight, helps…a lot. Doug isn’t here to learn. He wants to prove to us that we’re wrong.
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Exactly. And why does he need so badly to prove us wrong if we are inferior by nature? This site can be a useful tool that can help enlighten others when it’s not being derailed by someone full of their own importance. He’s bent on getting the objects of his derision to agree with him. It is a form of mental madness.
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@ Doug1
What % of White Americans do you think are more racist than you?
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@ Truth
Doug isn’t here to learn. He wants to prove to us that we’re wrong.
“”
And he does so wiithout supplying references that are outside of his Bell curve theology. You know what they say, “Beware the wo(man) of one book.” Clearly, this isnt suggesting that he only has ready one book but that he adopts a monolithic view based on one paradigm or one book.
It would be nice to see him expand outside of white fetishism. It would be a shame to see a (albeit) dim flame of intellect become extinguished by an oversimplified and distorted, recapitulation theory-styled doctrine of Biological determinism mixed with scientific racism.
Hate corrodes the mind and the soul.
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@ Doug said
“I’m not trying to justify true racism through science, but I have wanted to learn the scientific truth about racial differences. ”
Doug, do you think that proving the inferiority of blacks through science is none other than scientific racism and conformation bias?
If your answer is yes, then everything you’ve been led to believe is a farce.
If your answer is no, then you’ve been severly brainwashed.
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With regards to Doug’s comments on black people as stupid and aggressive, the truth is that aggressive and stupid people come in all colours, ethnicities etc.
For every good or bad thing you find in one race, you will certainly find it in another race.
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^^ Hence the scientific racism argument.
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That’s a truly absurd and very ignorant statement.””
Why? Because if you were to entertain that premise, it might undermine your entire way of looking at things? I see the metrics these psychologists work with. I know that they employ ghost writers or are caught in scandals involving data cooking, and are too disorganized and busy with their multiple offerings to even sometimes look at their own credited work (which is actually the work of a back-scratcher in the same department).
You cite these scientific racists like they are the gospel truth. When the illusion comes crashing down, what do you do then? Deny them without anything solid or convincing or try and accommodate new paradigms? I guess the choice is up to you.
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BTW, blacks in black and black lead ssAfrican countries are not the least intelligent race in the world.
IQ testing have shown Australian Aborigines, pygmies and Koisan/Bushmen/Hottentot to all score lower. In the mid sixties or even fifties.
However there haven’t been a whole lot of IQ tests done of any of these and IQ testing of all of them has become taboo over the last several decades, because of how low they’d previously scored. Also the sample sizes tended to be small. So it’s not iron clad. But there’s little to suggest otherwise.
(Pygmies and Koisans are considered by geneticists to be quite separate races from other ssAfricans, but their population sizes are small, so they aren’t considered one of the “major geographic races”. But their genetic distance from other Africans, particularly that of the Koisans/Bushmen/Hottentots is greater than between the six or seven major geographic races. )
I got this from GNXP, a good while ago.
GNXP is NOT remotely a white supremacist site. It’s co founder and controlling and usually chief poster is a genius second generation Bangladeshi American. He has blogged his way into a plush fellowship grant from a very rich Wall Street out of Palo Alto quantish also genius Jew who has some conservative and some liberal iconoclast views. Untz iirc.
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There are a great deal of whites who think like Doug1. What I find disturbing is the attitude they have. They will tell you skewed statistics, outdated theories and faulty science…and in the same breath tell you that racism against you largely imaginary. These people are looking to have some kind of global caste system. Always with them on top (and with Asians thrown in the mix so as not to seem TOO biased) and Blacks at the bottom. Then they foam at the mouth like rabid dogs because you don’t agree with them. And will never agree with them. They don’t respect us. Which is why they stalk us relentlessly and inject themselves into spaces that we have created for ourselves. Spaces that could be used to learn and are instead used to harass. These kinds of people can be on a site like this for YEARS. Doggedly trying to get their point across. And to what end? It is an exercise in futility. They will never address their presence here. They don’t need to. It speaks volumes to those with the ears to listen.
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Happiness–
I don’t say stupid. I’m not trying to insult.
But of course. But in widely varying percentages. Overlapping bell curves. Look it up.
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@ Why the obesssion? That I never fully understood. I certainly don’t go about my day moaning, ” white man, white people, white woman…”
Perhaps, Randy or Doug will tell me.
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I don’t understand either. We don’t stalk their blogs and videos and websites. Yet they seek us out. Why? We don’t have a history of mocking them, putting on white face ect, though we have every reason to. I don’t understand this stalking of the Black human. If you were truly a lion, you wouldn’t concern yourself with the prattle of sheep. Why must we be degraded in order for them to feel better about themselves? It is all very creepy, in my opinion.
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Then he tells us, “I don’t say stupid. I’m not trying to insult.”..yet every one of his post is trying to get us to accept that we are intellectually inferior. *quizzical expression*
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Truthbetold–
There is something called the truth.
And the truth is that blacks are a lot less intelligent that whites or NE Asians. Ex out the average 20% of white ancestry in American blacks with simple algebra and west African ancestry black IQ in American social conditions is about 80.
So ten points or so seems to be do to economic/dietary/social/cultural conditons between ssAfrica and America. The Flynn effect and his recent commentary on it suggests that a good lot of it is that Africans don’t tend to live in as complex and abstract choice world as developed world peoples do. Which effects the lower IQ strata more than the higher in developing countries. But this is all just theory, not proven.
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Let’s see WHITES have been to the moon.
Africans Couldn’t even GET TO MADAGASCAR!!
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It’s funny how Doug responds to certain comments but ignores others. It’s also funny that Doug seems to be obsessed with the notion that black people are less intelligent due to IQ and genetics even when it’s been debunked.
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Let’s see WHITES have been to the moon.
Africans Couldn’t even GET TO MADAGASCAR!!
Troll alert!
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“I don’t say stupid. I’m not trying to insult.”
“And the truth is that blacks are a lot less intelligent that whites or NE Asians.”
He calls us stupid. Yet we are not supposed to be offended and take it as such. We are intellectually inferior…yet he spends days arguing with us on posts trying to get us to acquiesce to his “points”.
*rubbing chin thoughtfully*
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Yes, he certainly does ignore certain comments.
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Obviously NOT ALL BLACKS are unintelligent and less intelligent than NE Asians and Whites, there is the talented 10% or so. But come on, even a cursory glance at Europe and the USA (and the scientific and technological achievements of those places) compared to Africa should tell you everything you need to now about the differences in intelligence and culture between the White and Black races. Sorry to say there is NO EQUALITY. WATCH THE TRACK AND FIELD EVENTS for the 2012 Olympics and then watch the SWIMMING EVENTS and WEIGHT LIFTING AND GYMNASTICS. You will see a STARK contrast in the races competing and WINNING!
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Doug,
You told Truthbetold, that there is something called truth. Here’s the thing though, why is this belief that black people are much less intelligent, the only kind of “truth” you would accept? Why couldn’t the possibility process in your mind that there could be other truths, one of them being that blacks are not unintelligent by some kind of design flaw?
You can argue that it was “science” that proved it to you, but science also proved the contrary. Does that make that kind of science less relevant to yours? And if so, why? Is it because you don’t agree with it or because you don’t like it?
I’m just askin.
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We could also talk about PRINCE GEORGE’S COUNTY (you know the MOST affluent Black middle class suburb in the USA) and how the schools there have THE LOWEST TEST SCORES in Maryland! Even with all of that “Middle class privilege” the students there still scrape the bottom of the barrel……..
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Out of ALL the Black people on the GLOBE there are only 10% who are intelligent?
Do you have the numbers to back that up? Valid links? Please post where you got this information from.
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@ OneAmongYou
Without Mediterranean Europeans, where would Northern and Western Europeans be? Mud huts, thatched roofs.
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@DarqBeauty – No of course not, it’s an approximation, but I mean the numbers bear this out if you look at the amount of Blacks in science, technology and small business start ups. Also the graduation rate of Blacks in STEM programs also backs this up, as does the abysmal testing scores of Black America. Look Blacks LOVE to crow about how much PHYSICALLY SUPERIOR they are at Basketball and Football and the like but REFUSE to acknowledge that they HAVE NOT measured up ability wise and IQ wise in Western Civ to the White and Asian races…..This IS NOT a personal indictment against YOU.
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@ Some Guy – Yeah Mediterranean Europeans laid the foundations for Western Civ, what’s your point? They were White Europeans…….
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@DarQBeauty – Where is the Black equivalent to the Apple Corporation?? (now worth more than the country of Poland BTW). Where is the Black equivalent of Microsoft? Where are the Black Automobile manufacturers? Where are the Black AEROSPACE corporations?? Where is the Black equivalent to NASA or Boeing, or Locheed Martin?? Why does Africa and EVERY Black run city in the USA require outside assistance to function??
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@ OneAmongYou
For anyone to take you seriously you have to PROVE what you are saying is true by citing facts and sources. No one cares about a “layman’s opinion” on things he or she is not educated about. If Blacks lag behind in certain social areas, you must prove that this is due to race and not some other issues. Just because you feel or think it’s due to race means nothing. You clearly aren’t qualified to make that call.
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@SomeGuy – Same question to you…>Where is the Black equivalent of Apple? of Microsoft? Where is the Black Boeing Corp.?? Where is the Black Raytheon?? Where is the Black Ford Motor Co.?? Why is Africa the POOREST continent on Earth despite having THE MOST natural resources???
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@OneAmongYou
Then you need to retract your statement if you don’t have the proof to back it up. What made you decide on 10%? Did you toss a coin? Why are we supposed to listen to anything you have to say as truth when you lied from the very first sentence?
Of course I don’t take it as a personal indictment against me. You obviously don’t know anything about Black people on any intimate or knowledgeable level, so why would I assume you have the power to target me personally?
You come here spouting false percentages in the hopes that we will what? Thank you for showing us how stupid we are? And if we are so unintelligent as a majority, what do you or we gain from your presence here?
Ok. We are stupid. Now what? *Kanyeshrug*
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And? They weren’t Northern and Western Europeans. The minority always advances the majority, so what’s YOUR point? You aren’t saying anything insightful or new. And before you start grouping Europeans together racially, you must prove without the shadow of a doubt that race exists and that all Europeans are connected racially. You haven’t.
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@DarqBeauty – “You come here spouting false percentages in the hopes that we will what? Thank you for showing us how stupid we are? And if we are so unintelligent as a majority, what do you or we gain from your presence here?
Ok. We are stupid. Now what? *Kanyeshrug*”
I’m not calling you stupid, that is your own device. I’m saying compared to NE Asians and Whites, you are ON AVERAGE less intelligent. THIS is WHY things are so bad for Blacks in the WEST. THIS is WHY Africa NEVER developed a written language or a boat with a sail. You Propose that Black failures in the West are SOLELY DUE TO WHITE RACISM AND OPPRESSION. Im just a little voice contesting that assertion. You probably think I hate all Black people and want to exterminate you…….NOTHING could be further from the truth, Im just letting you know that WE CAN NEVER LIVE IN PEACE and that is due to YOUR RACE’S pathological behavior, NOT White Racism (Tm)
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The difference between you and I is that I am not making any outlandish claims. You are. Therefore YOU must provide ME with proof, not the other way around.
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OneAmongYou
Well, I don’t know about aerospace, but I do know that Mark Dean holds three of the original nine IBM patents and led the team which invented the one giga hertz processor chip which lead to the development of the personal computer you are using now.
Once again, why should we listen to you when you lied to us from the first? You may think we are stupid but that does not make it a reality. I guess this must be one of those pesky 10% sites.
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@SomeGuy – WOW so now RACE doesnt even exist?? LMAO!!!! This is the type of intellect with which I have to deal.
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If whites are unable to live in peace with Blacks, then why do they constantly invade our lands? And the lands of others?
It is not Blacks who have a history of land theft and global genocide. Perhaps you could live in peace if you were to leave others alone peacefully. Just a thought.
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OneAmongYou
No one invited you here and no one is making you stay here. If we are intellectually inferior, then why are you arguing with us?
No one can ever seem to answer that question.
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@DarqBeauty- WOW! Thanks for proving my point…you found ONE AA project manager and that means that Blacks are just as smart…….christ. I noticed that this Mark Dean didnt do his work out of Africa….curious that
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I didn’t prove anything. I didn’t disprove anything. I just stated that a Black man helped develop the computer that you use to harass Black people. That’s all. *shrug* Take with that information what you will. Just as I take your information with less than a grain of salt. You were proven to be a liar from the first sentence, so no offense, nothing you say holds much credence for me. And I doubt it does for anyone else commenting/lurking.
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@ OneAmongYou
Neophytes should not step into an arena with adepts. You really think you can come here, say things dozens of unworthy fools have said before you and think we should bow to your inferior logic? HAHAHAHA! Not quite.
Next time you stop by, bring some facts to back up your statements. Empty claims like yours are quickly discounted by the truly knowledgeable.
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LOL @ Sitting here arguing with a bunch of “stupids”. 😛
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So basically you’re condescending to come and hear our thoughts, even though you “know” us to be intellectually inferior?
*side eye*
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DarqBeauty – “just stated that a Black man helped develop the computer that you use to harass Black people. ”
There you go again making stuff up. This guy helped develop a PROCESSOR, the computer was around for DECADES BEFORE THIS!
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I dont know WHO i’m going to get. Many times I get lucky and get to debate with one of the 10%……You’d be surprised how many agree with me, but then again I’m sure they are the Bill Cosby “Uncle Tom” types right??
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@SomeGuy – What empty claims? Where is the Black Apple COrp.? Where is the Black Microsoft? Where is the Black Boeing Corp?? Where is the Black Nasa??
*Crickets*
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Yes, I stated it was the processor. Which helped in making the PERSONAL computer possible. I stated all of this. Almost verbatim. As anyone who bothers to use the scroll button can read. Without the selectivity you just displayed.
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I don’t know Bill Cosby, so I can’t comment on him. Why would you make that assumption? Black people are not a hive mind. Though your words display this mindset.
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@ everyone but Doug1 & troll_among_you
I am tired of arguing with the useful idiots. TruthbeTold is right as per usual.
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@ OneAmongYou
YOU ARE MAKING THE CLAIM OF WHITE SUPERIORITY AND BLACK INFERIORITY.
I don’t have to do squat. YOU have to provide me with more than answering my inquiry with a question. If you are so damn secure with your superiority. Prove it. Prove race exists. Prove you are a certain race. Prove I am the opposite. Prove there is a “lack of invention” in my race. Prove that this is due to genetics. Stop bullshitting and put your money where your mouth is!
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I’m off this thread for the night. I’ve got tickets to see Immortal Technique tonight!
*waves happily*
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@ DarqBeauty
OMG. So lucky!
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It’s sad that some just can’t let go of that white inventor argument.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/11/06/the-white-inventor-argument/
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/02/17/what-if-whites-talked-about-great-inventions-the-way-they-talk-about-slavery/
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@ OneAmongYou
“I AM INTERESTED in knowing HOW THE OTHER SIDE THINKS. I like to hear BOTH SIDES. What is the point of just going to WN websites and echoing all of the same comments?”
Part of being intelligent and superior is ALREADY knowing how the other side thinks.
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Doug1
“I wish we could be done with you in an humane way. Alass we can’t”
“Yeah I regret the inflamatory nature of statement #1 and would take it back if I could.
I get irritated at blacks saying whites were only able to build the America they did because they did so on the backs of black labor, which is where it was coming from, but yeah, too inflamatory.”
He didn’t actually “take it back”, he said he would if he could which means he wishes he could go back in time and not say what he said.
He said he regretted saying it and would take it back because it was “inflammatory” not because he felt it was an immoral, evil, sick, twisted sentiment or an incorrect one. His only regret is that he let himself get so overly emotional that he revealed his genocidal Neo-Nazi fantasies about Black people.
He never at any time said he didn’t mean what he said and he has never at any time apologised for saying it, because he meant every word of what he said. Doug1 would like to see the Black race erased from existence.
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@ Doug1
You never answered my question because you cannot.
Listen, no fooling here, I’ve met many people in my travels who used to think, speak and act like you. Doug, I used to have many white companions. Neighbors, co-workers and friends who I thought were real, honest-to-goodness folks. They weren’t. They secretly hated me. My education bothered them, especially the ones who never went to school. And the further I went, may it be school, a new truck or a well kept garden, the more they resented me.
One by one, they went bye bye, of my own doing. Obama’s election was a wake up call for me. Doug, I don’t know your background or upbringing. Perhaps you had a bad experience or someone broke your heart, but this kind of thinking will only lead to your mental demise. We are not unequal in any way.
If you take any group of people, no matter what race or ethnicity they are, we probably share similar genetic make-up regardless of what colour their skin may be. Life began in Africa.
All peoples were born out of the black man and woman.
You, me and eveyone here are no different from each other, except on the surface.
You must try and un-brainwash yourself from this disease.
It will only lead to your demise.
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“He never at any time said he didn’t mean what he said and he has never at any time apologised for saying it, because he meant every word of what he said. Doug1 would like to see the Black race erased from existence.”
********************************
Robert – Welcome back!
JT –
You might as well save your time and your fingers. Doug1 drank the kool-aid, and his chances for recovery are dismal. It’s akin to asking Thordaddy to, well … stop being Thordaddy. Some people can and do change. But once that blue pill is swallowed, and one LOVES that feeling of empowerment and superiority it gives – it’s next to hopeless.
Some whites can’t stop or hide their racism/supposed superiority anymore than the devil can stop or hide his evil/demonic nature.
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@ Matari
Thanks :).
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OneAmongUs,
I’ve learned that when one constantly has to demean and pathologize black people for the same sh*t that people of ALL BACKGROUNDS, INCLUDING WHITES DO, that usually indicates that that person has a serious superiority complex trying to salvage what meager accomplishments one has made in one’s life. One could also say that one has an inferiority complex and is trying to project his inadequacies onto someone else or to an entire group of people to build up one’s minimal self-esteem.
I’m no expert, but I’ve seen it happen. White people feeling the need to tell black people how screwed up they are for no other reason other than to make whites look and feel good or rather make themselves look and feel good.
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@ OneAmongUs
You seem to have little knowledge of colonialism, the African film industry, of what the people in Madagascar look like or how the idea of race has been used to twist history to make whites into its heroes instead of what they are: the most murderous, thieving band of people the world has ever known.
If blacks had wiped out the people on three continents and taken their land and then raped two other continents for their wealth and labour, then yes, there probably would be a black Apple and black men on the moon and all the rest.
Blacks in America live in a racist country where whites outnumber them 5 to 1 and have 100 times more wealth and therefore about 100 times more power. To think that under such conditions all or even most of the troubles that blacks have are self-inflicted is self-serving in the extreme. It is like a wife beater blaming his wife’s bruises on her clumsiness.
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How can blacks be supposedly closer to apes when much of the features of apes are closer to Caucasian feature, Re: thin lips, hairy bodies, if you shave the hair off apes they have white pinky skin. On top of it, of all the ppl on the planet only whites have stated they descended from primates. Plus white people are the only known people who caused disease to others when they came in contact with them. Millions of native Americans, indigenous peoples, and blacks were killed just by being in close contact with whites.
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“Black Apple COrp.? Where is the Black Microsoft?”
Where is the white Apple Corp? Where is the white Microsoft?
If I remember correctly, millions upon millions of members of the white race had absolutely sqat to do the founding of either company; rather it was 3 individuals for Apple, and only 2 individuals for Microsoft. Intuition informs me that not one of them is you.
Where is your Apple Corp? Where is your Microsoft? In case you haven’t heard, you only get to take credit for your own accomplishments.
Plus, if you’re not the founder of any major corporation, why am I (or anyone else for the matter) more debased than you for share this same category with you?
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Blacks are not closer to apes. It is mostly the supposedly intellectually superior Homer Simpson type white (ie, the vast majority) who thinks this way. Forward projecting jaws (aka prognathism) is not a feature confined to either sub-Saharan Blacks or to lower primates (All humans are counted amongst primates).
While it is not common amongst so-called Caucasoids/Europids, it is not uncommon amongst Northeast Asians (who supposedly have higher IQs on average than Europids); though it is more commonly seen in Black Africans and to a more pronounced degree. It is also a common feature of Aboriginal Australians and can be found in indigenous American.
One theory, at least, has it that prognathism has nothing to do with being closer to apes in physiology than it does with having a diet high in raw and high fiber foods — whites/Caucasoids, having utilized heat/fire for millenia in breaking down such fibrous food matter, would have little need of such powerful jaws and teeth.
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“[T]he idea of race has been used to twist history to make whites into its heroes instead of what they are: the most murderous, thieving band of people the world has ever known.”
Oh my! LOL
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@doug: I just response once because your talk is just the same old same old racist HBDers doo doo.
First the intelligence tests: that study, so eagerly quoted by you and your ilk, was conducted by white men in black africa and the test used was the standard american IQ test (which is also basically a load of crap scientifically but a handy tool for some to control and hoowink idiots like you) in english. I would very much like to see how you would manage a test which questions your knowledge and skills in yoruba culture, of course in their language. I bet, you being a superior white man, would score on top of that too, right??
Second, the biology: there is just one human race on this planet. I know it burns you poop hole night and day, but there you go. It is a biological fact, like rain. Perhaps it is more embarassing for you that genetically you and Brothawolf are more close than ay black american and an african. It is also very emarassing for a dude like you, that west africans are genetically more distant to east africans than you are to Kobe Bryant. You just gotta deal with it.
Third: I have no idea why anyone can be that dumb.
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abagond…“…how the idea of race has been used to twist history to make whites into its heroes instead of what they are: the most murderous, thieving band of people the world has ever known.”
To wit: Part 1 of a six part HBO series: “Violence: An American Tradition – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr00KMl-Jus (Though I disagree with the part of Julian Bond’s narrated script that says: “Without knowing it, white America was forming deeply rooted violent traditions that have continued to haunt this country ever since.” – I think this entire series is VERY illustrative of your afore-stated point. WARNING: Not for the faint of heart!)
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@brothawolf
This is the reason why Doug1 seems to pick and choose who he responds to
……I’d also had a bit too much wine when I wrote them
It depends how p*ssed up he is when he responds it seems. *SMH*. He tends to focus on the posts that relate to IQ so he can continue with his absolutely boring white creator/inventor rhetoric. He ignores comments that ‘out’ him i.e. I bet he wont respond to Roberts post, as it becomes too dangerous and he might reveal too much of himself.
Unfortunately, many of us already ‘know’ the Doug1’s of this world. There’s nothing remotely ‘original’ about him.
Shame, I would give him credit for all the times he’s tried to suggest that he is intellectually superior due merely to sharing the same skin shade of certain WP of a bygone era if he reinvented himself…..
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@ Matari,
I admire you and the others people that have the patience to respond to their arguements. If i were Black I would lose patience even faster; i mean these same low-level thinking and ideas manifest themselves over and over again in many individuals.
But then they think that they are the only one that *truly gets what’s going on.”
When do they realize that what they are saying is possible only by the white-washing of the education system, their own familial delusions, historical revisionism in media and popular culture etc.
Then they read books that favor their one-dimensional way of thinking and only support that view point. They forget to call into question the validity of the social construction of “race” or “Iq.” Or they remember who did Microsoft! Who did Mac! Who went to space!
As if that is proof for their delusional thinking.
I think that’s the problem with Whites. What seems like empirical evidence (i.e. their “history”) validates their privileged status. Well we did this…what did you do?
They never stop to think how they got in a position to be where they could innovate freely without concern for lynchings, systemic discrimination, or economic funding.
Nothing about things have been equal since the get-go but then you expect to argue for the superiority of a “race” based on this uneven playing field.
Like what ludicrosity.
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OneAmongYou said:
“Obviously NOT ALL BLACKS are unintelligent and less intelligent than NE Asians and Whites, there is the talented 10% or so. But come on, even a cursory glance at Europe and the USA (and the scientific and technological achievements of those places) compared to Africa should tell you everything you need to now about the differences in intelligence and culture between the White and Black races. Sorry to say there is NO EQUALITY. WATCH THE TRACK AND FIELD EVENTS for the 2012 Olympics and then watch the SWIMMING EVENTS and WEIGHT LIFTING AND GYMNASTICS. You will see a STARK contrast in the races competing and WINNING!”
Is this actually an argument!?
Silly little troll!
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JT:
You appear to be falling into the “endogenous vs. exogenous” trap as described here: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/02/28/black-people-according-to-the-1911-britannica/#comment-115429.
Also, it’s one thing to say that Doug1’s point hasn’t been proved to be true, it’s quite another to suggest that it can’t be true. The former doesn’t imply the latter.
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@Bulanik:
I love your racism/body odor analogy! LOL!!
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@Bulanik
I think JT makes a good point here:-
I think that’s the problem with Whites. What seems like empirical evidence (i.e. their “history”) validates their privileged status. Well we did this…what did you do?
They never stop to think how they got in a position to be where they could innovate freely without concern for lynchings, systemic discrimination, or economic funding.
Nothing about things have been equal since the get-go but then you expect to argue for the superiority of a “race” based on this uneven playing field.
The ‘our people did this, what did your people do’ rhetoric that self indulgent individuals have multiple orgasms over when they are expressing how great WP are comparitively to others is a constant theme on many of the posts it seems.
I have asked them what they are doing in the here and now in terms of continuing the great strides made by the white race and am constantly met with silence. What is clear that they are doing nothing to enrich their lives. This is how I know that my assumptions of low esteem, fear, insecurity and not to mention an insular outlook on life and downright ignorance are not inaccurate.
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@ Randy,
Click to access Guo2000.pdf
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/01/chicago-income-inequality_n_829828.html
I would encourage you and Doug1 to seek out the archive of well- documented research about the adverse impact of poverty on early childhood development and the far-reaching effects of deprivation on social, psychological, physical, and intellectual well-being, especially in the earliest years of infancy. John Bowlby, Mary Ainsworth, Alan Sroufe etc.
This is not even touching on the deleterious role that socio-cultural factors like systemic racism play on mental well-being. Isolating racism as a variable is (as we have seen on this board) like nailing jelly to the wall.
You keep morphing and distorting yourselves so as to prove infalliable. It’s quite a tactic.
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@ Bulanik
LOL! That’s a perfect reminder of what Abagond posted: this 1911 Britannica entry, while dated, is like a door into the alternative universe that the majority of whites live in today. I never thought so but reconciliation or rapprochement between Blacks and Whites has to be premised on the destruction of this alternative universe. That explains how useful what you all do is, how fundamentally intelligent it is. You are writing the counter-narrative.
With not an ounce of exaggeration, it is nothing short of ingenius. An uphill battle of that sort takes fortitude most whites will never know.
In my humble opinion.
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Here’s one link about a biased research on the brain sizes of black people
http://scienceblogs.com/neurophilosophy/2007/07/on_the_peculiarities_of_the_ne.php
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JT:
Even if true, that doesn’t disprove the possibility that there also exists group genetic differences in intellectual potential. From what I’ve seen, it’s not been demonstrated that both you and Doug1 couldn’t be at least partially correct. This is a somewhat nuanced point which I hope you take a moment to consider as such.
JT:
Firstly, please recognize that Doug1 (representing the “HBD” perspective) and I are arguing completely different points.
I’m simply suggesting that such claims as yours require a high bar of evidence. The existence of exogenous cognitive development-limiting factors like poverty, poorer nutrition, lack of intellectually stimulating home environments, etc does not provide prima facie evidence that endogenous factors are not also present.
I’m guessing that your goal is to move towards a greater truth, not simply exchange an unflattering theory for a more socially palatable one.
Btw, thanks for sharing the Guo-Harris paper. It’s an interesting read.
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@ Randy,
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2247463/
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@Deb:
Thanks for that video. You’re right. It’s not for the faint of heart. A scholar in the piece talked about how not seeing Natives as human made it easier for whites to commit violent acts against them. It’s sickening to read and hear whites bring up how violent black people are. In the same breath they will cite high incarceration rates while leaving out WHY black people, particularly black men, are more likely to be found guilty and incarcerated. As stated in another post, many whites want to take credit for all the inventions, but conveniently want to overlook all of the unsavory things, such as their violent past (and present).
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@ Deb
The one thing that I keep hearing over and over again from my non American friends and relatives is how hypocritical Americans are. Everyone see through this, everyone, except them.
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@ Randy, Doug1
I hope you are taking time to read more about the “Development of the Person” and how reflecting on how the direction in which you are currently pointed is destructive for both Blacks and Whites.
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I’ll respond to any reasonably intelligent, non idiotic question when I’m around here. A lot of the questions I get are however idiotic, or simply baiting, and so on.
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@ Doug1
If that’s not the most preposterous thing i’ve ever heard in my life. You are seriously trying to argue that we are baiting you? Who’s forum for discourse is this? LOL.
Wow. They truly live in a Bizarro world.
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Darqbeauty—
That’s simply old school definition #1 racism: bigotry, and irrational prejudice based upon untrue supposed facts believed because of hatred and prejudice.
Whites have never done global genocide. Blacks also have a history of “land theft” in that they too have conquered other peoples lands. Look up Shaka Zulu and the Bantu expansion.
Whites have done more global conquest than any other race primarily because they could. It’s called being successful. It wasn’t against international law until whites, lead by the US, made it so in the after math of world wars I and II, through the founding of the UN and the adoption of the UN Charter by soon nearly every country in the world. (At that time America followed by the Soviet Union were by far the most powerful countries in the world, Europe was absolutely exhausted by and sick of war conquest, and most everywhere else wanted assurances that one of the two big boys wasn’t going to be allowed to conquer them, so all signed on.)
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Randy–
It absolutely has been proven that blacks in America (who on average have about 20% white ancestry) are a lot less intelligent than blacks, that is have on average about 15 IQ points less intelligence and since IQ is distributed in a population, have far, far lower percentages who are at or above some IQ threshold such as 115 or 125. That has tons of consequences.
Exactly how much that is due to immutable genetic differences between whites and blacks, or other nearly immutable differences, hasn’t been definitively proven. That a lot of it and probably more than half is due to genetic differences has however been strongly suggested by the sum of the available research evidence.
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I have comments answering some of you in moderation. Can’t figure out what causes moderation. Seems almost random.
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@ Doug1
I have certain words that I moderate that I do not tell anyone about.
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I’m “Black”, 20 years old, I have an IQ of 123, and I have met stupid people from all different races / ethnic groups / cultures – the fact that anyone is even arguing against the stupidity of these “findings” is ridiculous… no, more like stupid.
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@ Doug
“Whites have done more global conquest than any other race primarily because they could. It’s called being successful. ”
That statement tell me more about you than anything else you’ve said so far, Doug. May I ask, what was the exact moment that made you switch over?
You do realize that you’ve been brainwashed, right? No reasonable person, believes this drivel. Hatred is one thing…simply raw emotion that can be changed or lessened with time. Believing it is another.
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Darqbeauty—
None of the statistics that I’ve mentioned are “skewed”, and the science I’ve referred to is neither faulty nor outdated. It’s totally up to date. You just don’t like the results. The left has also attempted to shield blacks from the results, by making talking about this science not politically correct and taboo in polite, elevated circles. Telling the truth about the racial gap in intelligence got the most eminent geneticist in the world and the “dean” of that field, James Watson, who co discovered the structure of DNA for which he received the Nobel prize, fired from being chairman of the eminent genetics lab at Cold Spring Harbor, NY, that he built up from scratch. What he said was true; but it wasn’t politically correct. I think he’d be in a position to know if it was true, don’t you? Do a find on Watson in this thread with your browser and you’ll see both Abagond and myself mentioning his sacking above.
I think most whites think that blacks are less intelligent that whites on average, though they also know that a few blacks are quite intelligent and some whites are pretty dumb. The left and PC call articulating that “racism” these days, but that’s ridiculous. However breaking that taboo can get you fired or not promoted if you’re in any kind of elitish brain work in lots of industries. So whites are effectively forced to do doublethink and certainly doublespeak on this issue. This is at least vaguely recognized by the arising of the term “politically correct”. Most whites don’t really want to think that through too thoroughly, as being dangerous. To me it’s quite amazing that this has held for so long. It mostly arose in the 80’s I think. Back in the 70’s I remember lots of elite level whites openly saying stuff like “maybe blacks naturally really aren’t as smart as whites, but they’ve been discriminated against and segregated and so on, so we’ll just have to see how things develop over the next few decades.” Now even admitting the possibility (which is mostly what Randy insists upon it seems) is considered by many on the left as being racist. I don’t think most whites think that really is that, but still they don’t want to get tarred with that brush. So they avoid the topic.
The large gap in IQ on average is however simply the scientifically determined truth. IQ tests measure something real, there’s most definitely a biological basis for the distinction between the major geographic races (one’s race and sub race can be determined in fine detail by genetic testing as can the degree of racial admixture in one’s ancestry), and the rest of the left’s efforts to sidestep this scientific truth fail on any reasonable examination. Exactly why blacks are a lot less intelligent that whites and NE Asians on average isn’t known, nor is exactly how much of the reason is immutably genetic isn’t known either but it’s pretty damn clear that a good lot of it is due to genetics and it looks to be half or more due to that.
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@ doug
As for the issue of race and IQ:
One: First, you have to define what race is, if it actually exists, how many races there are and who exactly is a part of each race. Also, acknowledging people who are mixed race as a separate category.
Two: You must establish that IQ is quantifiable in a written test form.
Three: You must establish a test that is unbiased to all groups of human beings. You must separate each group for testing beforehand.
Four: Tests must be given by people who are completely unbiased to their results (good luck on that one).
Five: Tests must be scored by similarly unbiased individuals.
Six: If discrepancies are found, an effort must be made to determine the EXACT cause – social, physical, cultural or otherwise.
Seven: Tests should be used to advance Humanity, not manipulate, create scapegoats or destroy ethnic/racial groups.
Once you provide proof and sources of proof of these seven issues, then we can talk about race and IQ.
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truthbetold–
The opposite. I’ve unbrainwashed myself from leftist liberal drivel.
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@ Abagond
Something strange anout this theory…What counts as intelligence?
It seems most of these scholars are book smart but socially stupid.
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JT:
My primary concern is to better understand the nature of reality. Whether or not such discoveries are comforting or distressing to my personal biases is irrelevant.
Let me share one of them with you anyways: I actually hope that genetic and behavioral differences between population groups prove to be negligible or non-existent.
That being said, an intellectually honest person has to be outcome-agnostic with regards to weighing evidence and forming conclusions.
If you’ve been paying attention, you’d notice that unlike Doug1, I am not making any arguments of fact here. Mine are strictly rhetorical points designed to remove fallacious arguments from the table of discussion. What remains is then better grist for the debate mil.
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@ Doug
There is no left vs.right. That is a farce created by men, mostly American white men, with money, designed to seperate us, to weaken us, to make us turn on each other so we hopefully don’t notice that we are being used.
Understand?
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@ Randy
“My primary concern is to better understand the nature of reality.”
Randy, everyone’s perception ‘becomes’ their own reality.
Your reality is based on your:
race
Culture
Upbringing
Level of education
opportunity
ability to free think
You aren’t proving us wrong here.
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@ abagond
Why is it so hard for these white commenters to accept this? Other countries don’t deny their wrong doings. Even Germany has owned up to it.
Why are American whites so different?
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Doug uses Confirmation Bias to reinforce his ideology. He can never understand it. Deep down inside, he really doesn’t want to.
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Guys,
My friend from Nice says this about Americans:
America is the only country that believes their own propaganda.
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@ Doug1:
1. You think pseudoscientifically: you start with conclusions and then dismiss any facts or arguments that do not fit it. Most of what you say on my blog is either repeating your talking points or dismissing anyone who disagrees as absurd, idiotic or left-wing. That is not called having an intellectual argument. That is called being a seven-year-old.
2. You lack common sense. Any test that would show that most black Africans, Aboriginals and Khoisans are mentally retarded is not a good test. While it is possible that those people are not as bright as white people, they are not retarded. Come on. Use your head. Australia, in particular, was one of the hardest places in the world to reach and one of the hardest places to live. If they were that retarded they would have all died. In fact, if any place has selected for higher intelligence it would be Australia.
3. If there are true cognitive differences between the races – who knows, maybe there are – then a multiple choice, paper-and-pencil test designed for middle-class White Americans written in English and using English weights and measures is probably not the way to go. Such a test when used on the rest of the world would simply give strange results. See #2.
4. Even the Pioneer Fund, which has poured millions into the scientific racism you quote, admits that most of Asia, Africa and Latin America has never been properly tested for intelligence.
5. Cavalli-Sforza, whom you have used to back up your points, says that the scientific studies show that IQ scores are about 32% genetic. And even “genetic” can still mean it is deeply affected by the environment. Height is a good example of that. He also says that IQ tests are not a very good test of intelligence.
6. If I had to go by the comments on this blog I would think whites have severe reading problems and are unable to think out of the box. Most of them seem to act like mindless sheep. Yourself included. The only difference between you and most white people is that you have read more. But your racist thinking has remained untouched. See #1.
7. It should frighten you that your position is so close to an encyclopedia article that is a 101 years out of date.
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Someguy,
I asked him that very same question up above in a prior conversation.
He never answered me. He just came up with more prewritten material.
That’s the reason why so many countries have issues with American ideologies. They made no damn sense. And they NEVER admit to it.
****sighs****
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@ Aba
****Applause****
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@Randy
If you’ve been paying attention, you’d notice that unlike Doug1, I am not making any arguments of fact here.
I acknowledge this however, the fact that you constantly suggest that there may be/is credence to the assertions to some of the generic statements made about POC without fully taking in to context the numerous reasons these stereotypes might exist, it does suggest a certain leaning towards narrowness which is not unlike Doug1.
Are you friends with any POC Randy? I am not saying this to trick you or to make out that you are some kind of bigot for not having any – I understand from what you guys say that races/ethnicities generally live in certain areas so the opportunity to mix amongst a more diverse group of people tends only to happen in school/uni/work.
I ask because it would be difficult for the rhetorical points you make to be challenged as in all honestly, you really cant say that some of the statements being made here are fallacious because you dont ‘know’ otherwise.
I guess what i’m saying is, seeing and experiencing really is believing.
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@ abagond
Tag team!
I pile drive them in the center of the ring, you Superfly Snuka dive off the top rope.
Game over.
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@Bulanik
But Randy could be even married to some who is not-white and STILL have a convergence of opinion with Douglas.
Yes, you are right Bulanik. Whilst I get that Randy is not trying to link this in with skewed and biased so called ‘facts’ I am just wondering, other than the TV etc, what basis there is for his ‘opinions’.
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Abagond—
Simply wholly untrue. None of my arguments are or are based on pseudoscience nor have you ever been able to demonstrate such in any specific instance. You just make these broad brushed claims about me and my arguments, which are sophisticated and knowledgeable. As I’ve shown time and again. I do not dismiss facts which don’t fit in when they’re actually true facts. For example I don’t dismiss the Flynn effect.
That issue has been addressed by I think Rushton and maybe Lynn. White mental retardation tends to be associated with general lower cognitive and neural functioning, often somewhat jerky walking and so on, not just low levels of abstract reasoning. That occurs in some blacks with IQ scores below 70 as well, but most African Americans with below 70 IQ are reasonably fluid verbally and so on. They are just logically stunted. The same is even more the case with Aboriginies etc.
There are lots of kinds of IQ tests. They’re given in a language the test taker is fluent in when they’re that type of test. Usually shape puzzle type IQ tests are given in third world countries or for groups like Aborigines, such as Ravens Progressive Matrices.
Not all countries have most definitely, but most all major geographic races have been, though maybe not really with adequate sample sizes or recent tests among the A. Aboriginies, Koisan or Pygmies.
That was merely a guess on his part and a very dated guess. He probably also said it for politically correct reasons. Many people have tried to halt federal government funding for his work. I believe he said that at the time of the book the Bell Curve when then whole area of human genetics research came under intense left wing and leftist journalist attack. I’d guess he picked the lowest plausible percentage and went with it for the above reasons. As well I don’t cite Cavalli-Sforza for research into how much of variation in IQ is due to genetic differences, he’s done zero such work. I cite him among others to counter the absurd leftist proposition that there’s not genetic or biological basis for racial classifications.
I’ve read one hell of a lot in the areas I’ve talked about on here. I know what I’m talking about. Precisely what I do and have always done and been quite good at is think outside of the box.
About the only thing in common between that 1911 Britannica article and my position is that blacks are a lot less intelligent than whites. That was apparent to whites when the first interacting with ssAfricans and it’s been the view of most whites other than Marxists (or some Marxists, a lot of them just lie) ever since, and born out by IQ tests, SAT tests, and all manner of achievement tests. In any large sample size blacks always do worse on any kind of written test that isn’t so incredibly easy that virtually everyone does really well. That’s true now and has always been true.
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Point by point response to Abagond in moderation.
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SomeGuy–
All of your laundry list of hurdles were addressed and refuted by the book The Bell Curve some 17 years ago. All that is except the one that “race is just a social construct”, which was invented by the left after the book was printed.
I’ve addressed and refuted that in several of Abagond’s threads maybe nine months or a year ago now.
The “one drop rule” is largely a social construct, but races do exist and a person’s racial ancestry can be and is all the time detected by genetic methods.
The races can be divided on the basis of genetic distance into five to seven, or more finely that that yielding hundreds or thousands of sub sub races. The major geographic races are Caucasians or what are beginning to be called Western Eurasians, or which whites are a sub race as are Arabs, Persians, Armenians etc.; ssAfricans (north Africans are a clinal mixture and about one third ssAfrican and the rest Caucasian); NE Asians; SE Asians; Australians, Papuans and Micronesians; and AmerIndians. S Asian Indians are a complex mixture of proto Australians on their way there, SE Asians and Caucasians, so might be considered their own major geographic race. They tend however to want to be considered mostly Caucasians, which is only true of NW Indians of higher caste.
The degree of recent and ancient racial mixture can also be genetically determined. It’s true that the American “one drop rule” for calling someone black is very largely a social construct but it’s also true that there aren’t that many socially classified African Americans who in fact have far more white than black ancestry.
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truthbetold
Drivel? Do you know any world history at all?
You think nobody else conquered other peoples when they could? How do you suppose that Muslims largely from Iran conquered most what became British colonized India? Do you know that Hindu Aryans conquered largely the same parts of northern and central India a couple of thousand years previously? You have heard of Ghengis Khan, right? How about Shaka Zulu and the Bantu expansion? How about the Aztecs conquering the tribes surrounding what became Mexico City after Cortez in turn conquered with the help of disgruntled tribes the Aztecs had conquered and from whom they demanded regular and numerous human sacrificial victims? You do know that the Han Chinese started out only controlling most of the north China plane surrounding what became Peiking, but then expanded by conquering and incorporating other E. Asian peoples to their south, and then Tibet, which the lost to rebellion after awhile, but then regained control of under Mao and his communists, right?
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Demerera:
I make these statements because I’ve observed a common line of counter-argumentation which logically cannot be as true its proponents wish.
You cannot effectively rebut Doug1’s assertion that black people are genetically less intelligent than white people by pointing out environmental factors which lead to lower test performance.
Here’s an extremely simplified example:
Say there’s a neighborhood boy who performs poorly in school. One observer suggests that the boy inherited reduced intellectual capacity compared to the rest of the neighborhood kids.
A second observer points out that the boy had been previously bullied, and that bullying can correspond to lower scholastic performance.
The challenge for observer #2 is that the existence of such an environmental factor does not falsify the possibility that the boy ALSO inherited genes for lower intellectual capacity.
The best that observer #2 can say is that the boy’s history of bullying offers another reasonable potential explanation for his school difficulties, or is a compounding factor.
Notice that I am not offering any opinion about the validity observer #1’s beliefs, rather I’m simply pointing out that argument #2 cannot by itself invalidate argument #1. So if you do wish to conclusively demonstrate that Doug1 is wrong, you need an additional or more comprehensive proof.
Demerera:
I have non-white friends and a non-white wife. I’d have no difficulty making any of these statements in front of them.
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Doug1 reminds me of Wil E. Coyote running after the road runner so hard he launches off the cliff and keeps running. He refuses to look down because he knows that he will drop to his death.
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It’s amazing how in denial all or almost all the black commenters are on this thread.
That US blacks score 15 points or about one standard deviation lower on IQ tests, which is a lot lower, is simply a fact that’s been endlessly replicated for 90 years. (Actually it used to be about 18 points lower but the gap narrowed by about three points for those born before 1970 but then stopped narrowing.)
That IQ matters in school and life performance has been very well demonstrated and that’s mostly what the book the Bell Curve was about. As well there’s a reason why the American armed forces give every single one of it’s draftees or volunteers it’s own version of an IQ test, the AFQT. They consider it to be the single best predictor of a soldier’s future performance.
There’s a reason why all selective colleges and universities in the US require either the SAT or an ACT test, which are somewhat more applied quasi IQ tests and correlate closely with IQ scores.
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@ Doug1
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/02/28/black-people-according-to-the-1911-britannica/#comment-115624
Doug if we could devise a test to gauge the humanity of Black and white people to them selves and others. Who do you really think would score highest? Which race of peoples would come top in this test ? And who do you think would most likely reside on the bottom?
And if we placed the results of those tests alongside the same IQ tests, where you believe white people would excel. So that we could make an overall assessment about racial intelligence.
What would we conclude from these combined results? Would we still conclude that:
“… most whites think that blacks are less intelligent that whites on average, though they also know that a few blacks are quite intelligent and some whites are pretty dumb… ?
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@ Kwamla,
He is firmly set on spouting his theology of white supremacy. He is akin to the cult leader that urged his followers to drink the kool-aid. He is divorced from reality. His response will be full of bile. Not to be degrading to bile. 1-2 racist scientists as references and a flawed conclusion derived thereafter (blacks are stupid) do not make a cogent thesis.
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Perhaps we might conclude:
“… most Blacks think that whites are less humane than Blacks on average, though they also know that a few whites are quite humane and some whites are totally lacking in humanity altogether..”
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Well, here is the thing. The Bell Curve was written in 1994, years before the human genome was mapped. Therefore it can be safe to assume that no genetic inquiry was made to determine the “true race” of the people in question. Eye ball anthropology simply doesn’t cut it.
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@ SomeGuy,
Doug1 has seriously ran off a cliff and doesn’t want to look down. I would expect more denial/selective responses.
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You are basically arguing your point from the perspective of one book. One that was written almost 20 years ago based on information from 30 years ago. I don’t think anyone here is in denial about anything, except you.
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SomeGuy–
The Bell Curve simply determined someone’s race according to what individuals self reported themselves as being, or that the research they site in the chapter on race used that method.
Human races were distinguished by genetic methods of Cavalli-Sforza and others long before the full human genome was sequenced. Genetic distance between different population groups or races was first determined using so called non coding or “junk” regions of the genome which don’t express themselves into proteins or neural structure or body parts etc., such as the mtDNA of females. However there are fairly constant rates of mutation in this part of the genome and from that it can be determined how long ago particular populations split apart from each other and from that genetic distance, and from that racial groups.
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@ Bulanik
That’s why I call it: book smart but life stupid.
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“It’s amazing how in denial all or almost all the black commenters are on this thread.”
Doug, did you hear yourself?
From your astute intellect, you are a white man, correct, why go over and over the same comments with people who are genetically inferior?
Is it we that are incapable of understanding, or perhaps you, that is missing the point?
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Hey according to his junk science I am genetically superior like him but I couldn’t think he is more ignorant and tunnel-visioned.
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@ Bulanik
Good questions! He would be hardpressed to answer them.
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SomeGuy–
No I certainly am not. The research since has confirmed and amplified what they said.
Blacks also score about 1 standard deviation lower on the SAT test as whites do today.
I’ve read lots of reviews of the research on race and IQ since. Such as this for example:
THIRTY YEARS OF RESEARCH ON RACE
DIFFERENCES IN COGNITIVE ABILITY, published in 2005 in a peer reviewed journal.
Click to access PPPL1.pdf
Also see their response in 2010 to Nisbett (who’s on the left), who tried to refute them. Note the argument wasn’t even over whether the approximately 15 point or one standard deviation difference in IQ exists between blacks and whites exists, which Nisbett accepts, but whether it could all be due to so called environmental (including cultural) factors rather than partly that and partly genetic differences.
Click to access 2010%20Review%20of%20Nisbett.pdf
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@ everyone,
The person who shall not be named by me from hereon out is what we’d call a cognitive miser in social psychology. Someone who relies on the most base and heuristic driven areas of the brain and mind.
Truth be told, there is nothing sophisticated going on in that brain. Don’t let his regurgitation of highly discredited work fool you. =D
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In other words, unscientific.
Simply… no. Proof?
This proves geographical ancestry. No company or scientist that provides DNA tests of this nature states they are used to determine race. You are not qualified to make that call.
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Last two posts of mind just disappeared after I hit post comment. Didn’t even go into moderation.
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I like that. 🙂
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@ doug
That why I usually write my responses in notepad first, then copy and paste.
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Hardly based just on The Bell Curve. Based on reading tons of reviews of the science on race differences in IQ and how they come about mostly on the net since. Such as the following.
See this published in a peer reviewed journal in 2005:
THIRTY YEARS OF RESEARCH ON RACE
DIFFERENCES IN COGNITIVE ABILITY
Click to access PPPL1.pdf
Plus this in 2010, which is in response to Nisbett’s (who’s well over on the left) criticisms of their above article.
Click to access PPPL1.pdf
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See also:
Gottfredson 2005. What if the Hereditarian Hypothesis is True (Discusses the social implications of the Hereditarian Hypothesis)
Meisenberg, 2003. IQ Population Genetics: It’s not as Simple as You Think. (Introductory reading)
Murray, 2007. The magnitude and components of change in the black–white IQ difference from 1920 to 1991: A birth cohort analysis of the Woodcock–Johnson standardizations. (Discuses the B-W gap and it’s change over time.)
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@ doug
You still don’t get it, although I’ve all but said it in my past posts:
I don’t trust your sources
You are posting a review of data when you haven’t proven that:
A)The data has been gathered scientifically and neutrally.
B)The data is relevant to the topic at hand.
C)The ones gathering and extrapolating this so-called data are unbiased.
If African scientists came out with opposing data, you wouldn’t trust it. You’d say that they are biased. So don’t be surprised when I or anyone else treats your claims similarly.
People publish papers all the time. So what? Are they thoroughly peer reviewed? Does the scientific community reject them? Even that “criticism” is nothing more than playing Devil’s Advocate.
You are choosing people to support your argument who have been highly criticized in the scientific community. What does the mainstream think of your ideas of race? Are they all leftists as you claim?
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SomeGuy–
Rubbish. You just make stuff up as you go along.
It’s true that “major geographic population” is sometimes used as a euphemism for major geographic race, but they’re transparently the same thing and all the genetics who sometimes use that term know that.
However genetics testing firms very often refer to peoples genetic racial ancestry.
I saw a couple of episodes of this PBS show conducted by Henry Loius Gates, the chairman of Harvard’s African American department (and who I believe is more than half white iirc):
Faces of America is a four-part Public Broadcasting Service (PBS) Public television television series hosted by Professor Henry Louis Gates. The series originally aired February 10 – March 3, 2010 from 8–9 p.m. ET. In Australia, this program aired on SBS One each Sunday at 7:30pm from 9 -30 January 2011.[1] It uses genealogical research and genetics to find the family history of 12 Americans: Elizabeth Alexander, Mario Batali, Stephen Colbert, Louise Erdrich, Malcolm Gladwell, Eva Longoria, Yo-Yo Ma, Mike Nichols, Queen Noor of Jordan, Dr. Mehmet Oz, Meryl Streep, and Kristi Yamaguchi.
In the series finale, Gates explored the emerging use of full genome sequencing to understand personal ancestry and health, by learning what might be inferred from his whole genome sequence, and that of his father, through in-depth analysis by a personal genomics company (Knome) and the Broad Institute.
The family history meant the racial family history with finer groups explored than the major races, such as Gates Irish blood, some participants Yoruban and so on.
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I make up stuff as I go along? HAHAHAHA!
According to whom? Proof please, for the love of Christ. That’s all I ask of you.
Henry Loius Gates is neither an anthropologist, geneticist, psychologist, nor anything else you are discussing.
PBS? Please. At least quote NOVA.
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@ Bulanik,
No apology necessary. I like your post very much. It expresses what I see in this troglodyte through every one of his posts. And he doesn’t even know it while he’s doing it.
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Grrr. Blockquotes!!
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SomeGuy—
I’ve cited articles in peer reviewed journals. There are tons more.
Meanwhile you’ve cited zero sources for your apparent view that the one standard deviation black vs. white IQ gap even exists. Nobody in psychometrics thinks that.
Even Nisbitt who’s coming from the left politically doesn’t try to argue that. He argues that none of the gap is the result of genetic differences, not very convincingly.
Not necessarily if they were scientifically well regarded.
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It was done by the head of Harvard’s African America studies department.
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*doesn’t even exist.
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1) I’m not claiming anything. I’m challenging all your claims. Consider me Checkpoint Charlie. “Vere are your papaz?”
2) You are citing articles that are only accepted by a very, very small minority within the scientific community. Then you are presenting these articles as if every scientist accepted them as the gospel. That’s disingenuous.
Ditto. You’ve just made my point. Thank you.
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@ Bulanik
I remember seeing that title in the news “Neanderthal Genome Study Reveals That We Have a Little Caveman in Us”. I also remember thinking “Who is this “we”?”.
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I think the MUCH higher per capita black crime rate is due to both genetic and to cultural/environmental factors, like many human traits or predispositions.
After I finish writing my complaint, I am going to go rob a bank! I can’t help myself!
testosterone and a good many more testosterone receptors.
Translation: The men have more balls than you, plus they get more leg overs. Isn’t there a trillion dollar industry for testosterone enhancement? They got something you want obviously so you seek to insult them through pseudo-science!
Violent crime seems more attractive to those that can’t easily make a lot of fast money in other easy ways
Like those thieving clowns on Wall Street!
Do you understand statistics AT ALL?
“Facts are stubborn, but statistics are more pliable.”
Mark Twain
I did regret those words. It was hyperbolic and inflammatory. I’d also had a bit too much wine when I wrote them.
Ah, a non-apology! You do know that alcohol is a disinhibiter don’t you? You couldn’t control yourself! Let it out son, let it out!
What do we get from his profound insights?
Profound chuckles!
And the truth is that blacks are a lot less intelligent that whites or NE Asians.
Hello Doug, my name is Herneith and I am a dumb nigress! Hey Doug, does 2+2 +4=7? Hey Doug, is the world flat or square? Hey Doug, Where am I? Dumb enough for you Doug? Yes sah!
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@ Herneith
I never, ever want to get into a verbal argument with you. I bet your tongue can cut a man’s throat quicker than any blade could. 🙂
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@ Bulanik
I believe this is the study you are speaking of;
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/07/neanderthal-dna-found-in-_n_567177.html
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SomeGuy—
What I’ve said there’s scientific consensus about IN THE RELEVANT FIELDS (which in this case is psychometrics) is that a 15 point or one standard deviation by young adulthood gap between blacks and whites exists.
There’s controversy about how much of that gap is due to genetic causes though the bulk of scientists who say they think non is due to genes aren’t scientists in the relevant fields, and are spouting a politically correct line like most other academics and journalists. You can literally not get tenure for failing to do so when asked etc.
The only somewhat comparable twisting of and lying about the actual research that exists is with feminists and some of their research.
This post in GNXP discusses this in the first section.
http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2007/10/james-watson-tells-inconvenient-truth_296.php
It was occasioned by James Watson, the most eminent geneticist alive who co discovered DNA, being forced to resign for saying something true about the differences in IQ between Africans and those of European ancestry.
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@Bulanik & SomeGuy
Have seen this BBC report on the Neanderthal DNA,findings I complied…?
http://kwamlaonfb.wordpress.com/2011/02/04/youtube-black-people-does-the-earth-belong-to-blacks-have-they-been-invaded-david-wilcock/#comment-7
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@OneAmongYou:
Is shopping hereditary? If so which race is the best at it? Do you put this down to genetics or environment? Or do you put it down to a sale at Macy’s?
This IS NOT a personal indictment against YOU.
What is it then? Love talk? This ain’t a hookup site!
Why does Africa and EVERY Black run city in the USA require outside assistance to function??
Are you related to that loon no_slappz? He threw the same inane questions into the mix as you do. You write as if you created civilization or some how enhanced it when you did squat. We get it you think blacks are dumb. Why are you here? Try and come up with something more original, show us how smart you white folk really are!
NOTHING could be further from the truth, Im just letting you know that WE CAN NEVER LIVE IN PEACE and that is due to YOUR RACE’S pathological behavior, NOT White Racism (Tm)
Oh no, we think we’re wonderful! I doubt you have had extensive contact with black people you scared little person. This is why you hold fast to your a”I’m not racist but I think most blacks are dumb”, beliefs.
This is the type of intellect with which I have to deal.
At least you are dealing with intellect seeing as how you don’t have any yourself! Discuss! You, Doug, and Randy, are not ‘educating’ or rebutting anything written here. If anything you are illustrating just how dense you really are. In fact you make a mockery of legitimate discourse. Hence, the mockery I extend to you. You make no sense. You read like something out of a satire magazine!
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@ doug
I’m done. It’s like talking to a brick wall.
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@ everyone,
Along with “cognitive misers,” a lot of research has been done on “perceptual readiness” (Bruner, 1957). It is particularly relevant to who we are talking to as of right now. Take that white supremacist’s “science” with the grain of salt it deserves. Heck, a grain of salt is a steal for what scientific racism research is worth. Ask the vast majority of CREDIBLE scientists.
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JAMES WATSON, the DNA pioneer who claimed Africans are less intelligent than whites, has been found to have 16 times more genes of black origin than the average white European.
An analysis of his genome shows that 16% of his genes are likely to have come from a black ancestor of African descent. By contrast, most people of European descent would have no more than 1%.
The study was made possible when he allowed his genome – the map of all his genes – to be published on the internet in the interests of science.
“This level is what you would expect in someone who had a great-grandparent who was African,” said Kari Stefansson of deCODE Genetics, whose company carried out the analysis. “It was very surprising to get this result for Jim.
Watson won the Nobel prize, with Francis Crick and Maurice Wilkins, after working out the structure of DNA in 1953. However, he provoked an outcry earlier this year when he suggested black people were genetically less intelligent than whites.
This weekend his critics savoured the wry twist of fate. Sir John Sulston, the Nobel laureate who helped lead the consortium that decoded the human genome, said the discovery was ironic in view of Watson’s opinions on race. “I never did agree with Watson’s remarks,” he said. “We do not understand enough about intelligence to generalise about race.”
The backlash against Watson forced him to step down as chancellor of Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory, New York state, after 39 years at the helm. He had said he was “inherently gloomy about the prospects for Africa” because “all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours – whereas all the testing says not really”.
The analysis by deCODE Genetics, an Icelandic company, also shows a further 9% of Watson’s genes are likely to have come from an ancestor of Asian descent.
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@ SomeGuy,
This is what he is fighting for: the last word on a matter he knows very little about. It’s like trying to flex flab.
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SomeGuy
Doug1-”The Bell Curve simply determined someone’s race according to what individuals self reported themselves as being, or that the research they site in the chapter on race used that method.”
In other words, unscientific.
That’s how researchers coming from all political persuasions have always done it for by far most studies involving racial differences and how they might come about and be reduced and so on.
It works well enough because only a small percentage of blacks (about 10%) are more than half white and by far most of those have a lot more than one drop of black in them. Also it works to blacks advantage in making the gap look smaller. If we took out all self identified blacks who are more than half white the racial gap in IQ would widen a bit.
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Nom De Plume…No problem. All six parts together, make for one helluva, indisputable indictment of those who suffer “the incredible nothingness of whiteness” and all those unsavory things which undoubtedly inform who they’ve become, yet they choose to overlook. More damning as you go through each part, is the way in which each successive immigrant group who joined those alleged “white Americans” (because they could) decided, “If we can’t beat ’em, we might as well join ’em!” – following in the violent footsteps of their predecessors who welcomed their new “soldiers” with open arms.
truthbetold…Growing up Black in America afforded many of us the opportunity to learn – no, make that KNOW how hypocritical most Amercans are. However, not until I travelled a little bit outside of the US (Central America and Africa) did I realize just how much “Everyone sees through this, everyone, except them.”
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Bulanik–
That result by an Icelandic genetic ancestry lab was subsequently shown to be in error. Don’t know if it was intentional error. Wouldn’t surprise me.
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@Randy
So if you do wish to conclusively demonstrate that Doug1 is wrong, you need an additional or more comprehensive proof.
For a self proclaimed so called intelligent man like Doug, this blog and the posts from the commenters therein should give him his first inkling that the sources that he chooses to quote from are outdated and biased and therefore inaccurate.
Its all very well presenting someone like him with conclusive proof but at the end of the day, anything that people read is down to interpretation. He has consistently demonstrated that he is not willing to take on board anything that strays from the confines of his own built up ideology.
I for one do not have the patience to ‘break it down’ for him in more simplistic terms than has been attempted on here – its like having to repeat yourself over and over to an errant child.
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They’re not outdated.
Anything which shows blacks in a less than flattering light is also automatically called biased or racist by blacks and the left, no matter that it’s true.
Further there isn’t even any controversy among psychometricians (psychologists who specialize in measuring mental differences of various kinds, from IQ to personality to conscientiousness and so on) that blacks score about one standard deviation lower that white and NE Asians on IQ tests.
The controversy is over how much of that is due to heritable aka differences. The heriditarians are increasing winning the argument among specialists in this area, but that’s VERY politically incorrect and by far most of academia and the media what to suppress this research, not publicize it, and vilify researchers whose experiments or literature surveys come up with such results.
That’s simply the facts.
It’s similar to how Lawrence Summer was forced to resign from the Presidency of Harvard for saying in a speech to women academics in the sciences that part of the reason their are a lot fewer female than male professors in the sciences in elite institutions may be due to the fact that especially in math ability, females have a narrower variation in math ability aka lower standard deviation in math IQ. That in fact is true, and Steven Pinker, the distinguished Harvard psychologist had said the same thing in his book “The Blank Slate”. True but you’re not allowed to say so to a wide audience.
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Demerra–
This is absurd. You people are simply wrong on the facts.
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Anything which shows blacks in a less than flattering light is also automatically called biased or racist by blacks and the left, no matter that it’s true.
The reverse is also true but there is nothing in any of your commentary that suggests that you are interested in portraying an honest, balanced and most importantly ‘unbiased’ interpretation of this.
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One more for the road:
It’s equally well-known that anybody can support ANY point of view by cherry-picking “evidence.’
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@ Bulanik, rolflmbao @ “the brotha”…lol. This must be the funniest line I have ever read on Abagond.
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@Bulanik
Heard of Ellipitical Differential Operators?
Heard of Katherine Okikiolu, University of California, professor of maths and physics in this area….?
(Nigerian parents, btw)
Are you sure, she doesnt have any white in her? 😉
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Here’s Razib Khan in a recent post on race. He runs Gene Expression, the leading human genetics ane evolutionary history blog on the web. It’s also a leading blog on human cultural evolution and global history. He’s a 2nd generation genius Bangladeshi American who’s an atheist and thoroughly western in his cultural outlook, though like many like him, his outlook does straddle worlds to some extent. He’s certainly far from a white nationalist much less white supremacist, and he frequently bans any commenters who sound like that. He is however a race realist and looks at race from a HBD perspective. In fact he’s a major inventor of that perspective, though Steve Sailer coined the term. He has an annual fellowship from a genius super rich Jew to pursue his blogging and ideas.
He certainly thinks race exists and has a biological and genetic reality, but that popular categorizations of race aren’t always so accurate genetically. For example the one drop rule, or the fact that there are racial subgroups in Africa.
This guy is in a position to know and it’s hard to make out a case that he’s biased in favor of whites.
The arguments he makes in this post are at a high level of sophistication so some may misunderstand some of what he’s saying.
The title btw is basically intention grabbing and tongue in cheek.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/the-race-question-are-bonobos-human/
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And another recent Razib Khan post on race.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/02/jerry-coyne-on-race-a-reflection-of-evolution/
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Women have the same or very very close to the same average IQ as men.
However there are a lot fewer women with genius level IQ’s, or IQ’s above some very high level such as 145. Among whites there are about as many women as men who have IQs at the 115 level. But as one goes higher there is divergence, yes. Narrower standard deviation.
Thomas Sowell (the well know conservative black cultural historian and pundit) says that black women are on average smarter than black men. I don’t know if that’s true or where he gets that. I’ve not read him say it directly but have read others say he says that. I haven’t see anyone else say it, except in reporting that’s what Sowell says.
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Bulanik—
Fewer women want to go into those careers.
Women aren’t paid less for the same work, they’re paid less for less work, and for interrupting their careers to have children, and because they take more days off for family events like taking kids to the doctor or caring for sick ones at home and so on, research has shown. Summers also said this was a factor in that speech and the feminists in attendance hated that as well.
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Women aren’t paid less for the same work, they’re paid less for less work, and for interrupting their careers to have children, and because they take more days off for family events like taking kids to the doctor or caring for sick ones at home and so on, research has shown.
Do you guys have paternity leave in the U.S? What do you mean by ‘less work’, are you saying that in the same organisation in the same role as a man, women are less productive?
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Blanik–
Actually the article you link while advocating for more women in science says much of what I said above, but says that science institutions should change to overlook or accommodate these differences.
Her article tends to convince me that there should be fewer women in science, and less money spent on educating women in science, not more.
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Demerera–
Yes.
I’m saying women work fewer hours, take more days off for alleged sickness and family reasons, are less likely to be willing to work really long hours in some work push, and often interrupt their careers for having and raising small children, or work part time or light time when doing so. Also women gossip and socialize a lot more at work and so on.
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@ Doug
I’ve been reading your banter. May I ask you a question, to which, you’ve never answered.
Why the fascination with blacks and IQ?
Why the fascination with blacks, period?
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I’m saying women work fewer hours, take more days off for alleged sickness and family reasons, are less likely to be willing to work really long hours in some work push, and often interrupt their careers for having and raising small children, or work part time or light time when doing so. Also women gossip and socialize a lot more at work and so on.
Appreciate its a personal question but do you have children? Are you married? Just trying to get a perspective here…
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@Doug1
BTW,
Any organisation who allows these so called ‘alleged’ sickness and family issues go by unchallenged is making a rod for their own back and will inevitably feel the fallout from this in some way or other. In the organisation where I work, anything like this is monitored and addressed as per our policy and guidance, particularly where a pattern emerges or if there is an issue in terms of conduct/capability/performance.
This kind of disruption is not only costly to the organisation, it impacts on the other individuals working there too.
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@Doug
I’ll respond to any reasonably intelligent, non idiotic question when I’m around here. A lot of the questions I get are however idiotic, or simply baiting, and so on.
Then how come you can’t answer my questions pertaining to yourself? Here is what I wrote to you which you’ve yet to respond, or do you consider these idiotic questions?
You told Truthbetold, that there is something called truth. Here’s the thing though, why is this belief that black people are much less intelligent, the only kind of “truth” you would accept? Why couldn’t the possibility process in your mind that there could be other truths, one of them being that blacks are not unintelligent by some kind of design flaw?
You can argue that it was “science” that proved it to you, but science also proved the contrary. Does that make that kind of science less relevant to yours? And if so, why? Is it because you don’t agree with it or because you don’t like it?
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@Bulanik
As far as I know, Dr George Okikiolu has written more mathematics papers than any African mathematician, and to the best of knowledge, is also a published author on the subject of mathematical applications.,
Either way its clear that she does could not fall into the categories suggested by Doug1 either in terms of IQ, being less productive etc 🙂
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@ Bulanik
Black people are the minority in the U.S. and don’t have the numbers to directly affect the power structure at large. Why is he so concerned with something that cannot affect his day to day existence? The way they affect ours. The fact that Black people seem to be his pet obsession is very disturbing.
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Demerera–
I’ve been divorced for quite a long time, no kids. My much younger girlfriend has been living with me for more than 5 years.
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Demerera–
It does and men generally have to take up to slack. Although it’s not as fraught to fire a white woman as it is a black of either gender, it’s a lot more fraught than firing a white man.
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James Watson is black:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/12/science/12watson.html
Phillipe Rushton is a pervert:
Also in 1988, Rushton conducted a survey at the Eaton Centre mall in Toronto, where he paid 50 whites, 50 blacks, and 50 Asians to answer questions about their sexual habits. Because he did not clear his survey and proposed to pay for answers with the university committee at UWO, the administration reprimanded Rushton, calling his transgression “a serious breach of scholarly procedure,” said University President, George Pederson.
Rushton’s work has been criticized in the scholarly literature; he has generally responded, sometimes in the same journal. In 1995 in the Journal of Black Studies, Zack Cernovsky wrote, “some of Rushton’s references to scientific literature with respects to racial differences in sexual characteristics turned out to be references to a nonscientific semi-pornographic book and to an article in the Penthouse magazine’s Forum.”[49]
Robert Sussman, an evolutionary anthropologist and the editor in-chief of American Anthropologist, explained why the journal did not accept ads for Rushton’s 1998 book:
This is an insidious attempt to legitimize Rushton’s racist propaganda and is tantamount to publishing ads for white supremacy and the neo-Nazi party. If you have any question about the validity of the “science” of Rushton’s trash you should read any one of his articles and the many rebuttals by ashamed scientists.[51]
Clowns any way you want to characterize them. Especially that self-loathing negro Watson.
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My comment is in moderation above a few comments up.
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Although it’s not as fraught to fire a white woman as it is a black of either gender, it’s a lot more fraught than firing a white man.””
Did you lose a job because of affirmative action Doug?
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Yes Rushton has been smeared by the far left but very unfairly. His scientific research is solid.
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@ Herneith,
Thanks for clearing that out of the way. Sounds like another repressed and socially maladjusted right-winger.
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Re Watson’s claimed by the left partially black and other non white ancestry – for one thing he doesn’t look anything remotely like 16% black. But more importantly and scientifically:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_D._Watson
The bulk of what google throws up on this topic is the original announcement from deCode, since leftists in the media and academe were giddy to be able to discredit Watson, who after all is a towering figure in genetics research, but from their point of view, absolutely needing to be vilified for violating a political correctness taboo, with some considerable credibility (absent effective vilification).
It hasn’t held up.
deCode genetics based in Iceland and headed by Stefansson based its initial report not on its own gene samples from Watson, but from Watson’s having decided to publish his gene sequencing data on the web in the interests of science. Watson’s full genome sequencing was very early, done years before deCode’s analysis, and error prone. It’s gotten vastly more accurate and reliable since. This process seems to have been in early years lots worse than the methods Cavalli-Sforza and others used using non coding “junk” parts of the genome such as female’s mtDNA, for purposes of determining racial ancestry. The idea of sequencing the whole genome was to distinguish active genes (actually alleles, which are gene variations) between individuals for purposes such as finding genetic causes of some diseases and as well to determine genes that influence mental traits, though that’s publicly talked about less. There’s a hope that eventually genetic engineering to e.g. increase IQ may be possible for example. Not anytime soon most likely.
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Does anyone else think that this need to “PROVE” Black genetic inferiority is driven by losing out to POC in the workplace? I have a strong suspicion he was privately humiliated by a POC and this is how he expresses it.
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There is absolutely no effort among the black and far leftist white commentariate on this blog to look for the actual truth on this subject. That is what I’ve sought to do, really and truly.
The entire effort on here is to emotionally and socially attack the evidence I’ve discussed and presented, with no intellectual integrity whatsoever.
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@ Herneith
No shocker there.
Most of the worlds biggest, baddest racists are the very thing they hate.
Example? Hitler was Jewish, homosexual and abused as a child.
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Bulanik–
I advocated no such thing.
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“There is absolutely no effort among the black and far leftist white commentariate on this blog to look for the actual truth on this subject.That is what I’ve sought to do, really and truly.”
Does this quotation not eerily ring of Kipling’s “The White man’s burden” ?
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Doug said:
“There is absolutely no effort among the black and far leftist white commentariate on this blog to look for the actual truth on this subject. That is what I’ve sought to do, really and truly.
The entire effort on here is to emotionally and socially attack the evidence I’ve discussed and presented, with no intellectual integrity whatsoever.”
Doug, you are trying to convince yourself, not us.
You never answered my question.
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truthbetold–
Nonsense. Further I’m only racist if the truth can be racist, which is absurd. I’ve got plenty of good reason based on the science to believe that blacks are on average and all along the respective overlapping bell curves for IQ, are a lot less smart than whites and NE Asians.
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Oh, i forgot to mention: The White Man’s Burden is from 1899 – even before this Britannica entry.
Anyone surprised? This Britannica post is like their alternative universe.
Abagond could you please write a post about contemporary confederate culture?
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Interesting side note.
James D. Watson’s IQ is 124 as stated in his bio.
I believe Mensa requires a minimum of 131 for anyone to be accepted. This modern father of genetics wouldn’t even qualify according to his own score.
My own tested IQ is much higher than 124. It makes you wonder about the value of such tests.
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@ Someguy
If Watson’s IQ is one of his credentials, he really needs to be laughed at – I mean, read. LOL.
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And I say that solely to clarify that one should be read for the quality of their content and validity of their research not because some arbitrary figure used to relativize their mental worth. The IQ is a very esoteric type of test and not typically all that encompassing at all.
The IQ test should not be read too seriously. I think people sub-average IQ could be genius in many different realms that are not scored for in the IQ. It is a very culture and sub-culture specific tool.
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@Doug:
Funnily enough he has ‘black’ features with his full lips and features. He looks like Carol Channing in reverse drag! Carol Channing’s father was a light skinned black man. She did not reveal this until she was in her seventies. Watson knows of his black ancestry, his full of shit if he says he never did. Like I said, a self-loathing clown. Rushton is a perverted racist as I said. How scientific is it to go to a mall and ask men how big their penises are and how far they could ejaculate? Not a controlled experiment to be sure. You see, none of those loons are credible.
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Here’s my take on this~ It’s not like abagond and others don’t have a leg to stand on with issues such as inaccurate encyclopedias in the past and the retroactive effect that still holds true today. However there is a but……you knew there would be a butt…….the but is this……Alot of work has been done in areas such as this and it is a work in progress. In fact there are tons of white people who would be scolded by their own fathers and teachers and friends if they held the same beliefs of old. I’m sure there are black people who do the same thing when they encounter family members with false agendas.
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Hee hee hee I’ll quote the work of discredited pseudoscientists, scoundrels, Neo Nazis, White supremacists and charlatans and when it is pointed out this discredits my fictional assertions, I will claim that they are brave truth tellers persecuted and defamed by Marxist leftist elites.
I will cherry-pick and misrepresent statistics, historical facts and scientific data and then claim that the fact that my White supremacist fabrications are disproved by mainstream science is proof of my independent critical thinking, sophisticated high IQ mind and ability to think outside the box!
I will skillfully dodge any question that might completely expose me with the excuse that the question I can’t answer is an attempt to bait me!
Anytime someone presents peer reviewed legitimate science to disprove my White supremacist fantasies, I will dismiss it as Leftist Marxist propaganda or claim the scientist in question agreed with my White supremacist perspective when he said the complete opposite, but was too afraid of censure by leftist elites and of losing his position to tell the non-PC truth! Brilliant! Ha Ha!
Ha ha ha ha! what sheer brilliance! Only the mind of an Aryan Übermensch could come up with such an unbeatable trolling strategy! Wow what fun this is going to be! Those dumb low IQ n*gg*rs will never figure out what I’m up to! It will completely bamboozle them and blow their minds!
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Doug1,
I’m going to try this again seeing as how you may miss my earlier comment and questions to you:
I notice that you say the same thing over and over again. “Blacks are less intelligent than whites as proven by science. Therefore, it’s the absolute truth and not some fault campaign by the left.” It seems to me that you’re backed into a corner as you can’t seem to come up with anything new to say.
I asked plain, simple, and straightforward questions. One of them was why is it that the notion that black people are less intelligent than whites the ONLY kind of notion you will accept? What makes you think this so-called” truth” that you’ve repeated over and over again is the only truth out there? Wouldn’t it be a good idea to consider other points of view as well before jumping right on the kind of theories that pleases you like a tick to a dog?
Like I said, you can try to say that “science” proved it to all you want. You can try to cite sources from scientific racists from all over the world across time if you want. But here’s the deal: There is science that can argue against your position, loads and loads of it.
Yes, you can say that it’s part of some leftist agenda or what not, but so far, you haven’t proven that any science that counters scientific racism (that’s what it is) is part of any agenda. So far, all the sources you’ve presented are part of the campaign of white supremacy.
It seems you are obsessed with the belief that black people are less intelligent to whites, but could it mean that you want to convince yourself that black people are left wingers are less intelligent than you? Are you projecting your own inadequacies onto people you know your people will quickly picture as “the problem with society” out of feared of being considered as a “race traitor”? Why do you need a group of people to be inferior? Would you, in all good conscience tell a black child that he/she is born with less intelligence than white children, and that he/she will grow up not amounting very much because he/she was born black?
And even if blacks are inferior intellectually (not saying that are), why should it matter to you so much to “educate” them on the power of white people? Why waste your time of the intellectually inferior in the first place?
As a matter of fact do you know any black people personally? If so, do you honestly discuss the same things you like to talk about here with them? How did they honestly respond?
Tell me Doug, what qualifications do YOU have in order for anyone to listen to you? What accomplishments have YOU made that rank right up to the white inventors and achievements you brought up in another post?
The bottom line is Doug is that if you really think white people are superior to blacks in any way, you wouldn’t be repeating it over and over again. It seems that you are trying to convince yourself more than you are trying to convince us.
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@ Robert
Bingo.
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@ Doug1
Flip that and it is the story of this blog:
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@ Doug1
A racist is someone who believes that one race is naturally better than another. Here is how your beloved Merriam-Webster defines “racism”:
Racist #1 is you to a tee. Yet you think you are not a racist. “Because it’s true.” As if the definition said anything about a FALSE belief in racial superiority.
Is changing the meanings of words to suit yourself, is that part of what you mean by “intellectual integrity”? Is that part of your search for the truth?
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Doug1,
““Anything which shows blacks in a less than flattering light is also automatically called biased or racist by blacks and the left, no matter that it’s true.”
Because there’s a difference between honesty and demeaning an entire group of people when it’s convenient.
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@ Doug1
You cannot say that the science supports you and then, when most scientists disagree with you, dismiss them as left-wing. That is not a scientific argument. That is putting political truth above scientific truth.
Nor are you allowed to play mind-reader and say that certain scientists secretly agree with you but are too afraid to say it. That is not a scientific argument either: it puts a private mental experience above published results.
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@Randy
Wrong. The burden of proof is on him.
If I said, “White men are genetically predisposed to pederasty,” or “Randy beats his wife,” the burden of proof would be on me, not on others to prove me wrong.
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@ Doug1
Just like with Bible verses and statistics, you can prove pretty much anything you want by cherry picking scientific papers. Like that smoking tobacco is harmless.
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@ Doug1
Wow, that sounds just like certain white commenters on this blog.
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Funny how doug keeps spinning those same arguments and “evidences” which have been shot down on this blog many times. Also how he denies the science and claims to know what is scinece and what is not and how he can make the desicion on that too.
It is very funny when he argues about the genes and biology of races and yet can not accept that he is just a chimpanzee. Or 98,3% of him is.
I think there is something very revealing in his responses, something which shows what type of a person is a racist.
Also notice once again, when he gets surrounded and runs out of arguments: IT IS THE LEFT! LIBERALS! THE COMMUNISTS! Oh man…
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Hey Doug, I just saw your grandfather in an ad:
More such ads here: http://goretro.blogspot.com/2009/11/claims-that-went-up-in-smoke-look-at.html
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@ Robert
Good summary (I just read it)! However I think he is too brainwashed to see what he is doing. For example, he says he is seeking the truth yet does not seem to see that he is unwilling to admit to any truth that goes against his politics.
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@ Brothawolf
I agree. If he truly believed what he was saying that would make him some kind of sick bastard, the kind that would brag about his running speed on a website for paraplegics or his SAT scores on a site for those with Downs.
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@ Doug1
That is not true of all commenters. SomeGuy, Sam and I, among others, have been patiently pointing out the huge holes in your thinking. Like how you say science backs you up when it does not – just a few wackos. Rushton, a man who asks men in a mall about their penis size, is not even a geneticist. Cavalli-Sforza is, but when he disagrees with you, it is because he is too afraid to openly agree with you! That is conspiracy-theory-nut-job thinking. Snap out of it!
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@ abagond
Thanks. I am cynical when it comes to White supremacists. They are generally very devious and usually live by Hitler’s example of deception as a way of life. I have seen them use the “playing dumb” tactic many times before when trolling a blog. It’s hard for me to believe that a grown man could have that little self-awareness of what he is doing. If that is the case with Doug1 then it is pretty disturbing.
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Abagond:
I think that you might have misunderstood the meaning of that statement. I’m not commenting about whether or not Doug1 is actually correct. Rather, I’m pointing out that the “nurture” argument by itself does not invalidate the “nature” argument.
You’ve done several posts which have explored the differences between racial groups in areas such as academics, crime, etc. The main explanation for these differences roughly breaks down to “nature” (people are born that way) and “nurture” (the environment shapes behavior).
The “HBD” perspective argues in favor in nature, that the results we see are the product of genetic predispositions. You, and the majority of the commenters on this blog, tend to favor the “nurture” argument, that the differences between races can be explained by the long history of discrimination against black people.
I’m simply saying that the nurture argument cannot by itself invalidate the nature argument. It offers an alternative theory to the nature argument, but not an exclusive one, as both nature and nurture effects could be at work.
Let’s take your “Randy beats his wife” example. Randy’s wife shows up with a black eye. Person A states that his wife is naturally clumsy. Person B states that Randy has been known to beat his wife. Even if person B is making a true statement, that does not preclude person A from being correct as to the cause of the black eye.
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@ everyone
I’ve just been quietly thinking about this post and the comments since last night.
Question:
What do white people hope to achieve by this ?
Is it that they are so viscerally aware that their moment will soon be over, so a mass hysteria has taken place?
Is it not enough that they’ve ruled for thousands of years?
Or, perhaps fear that we will give them the same treatment?
Listen, everything that has taken place on earth, everything in the US, has been a long time coming. You can’t continue a raid on earth and its peoples and have NO backlash. Do you understand that?
Instead of trying to make amends, it’s like most whites have regressed into 5 year olds. What is it that you want?
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@ Randy,
So are you trying to state that unless one can prove that “intelligence” is not genetically based, then we need to assume that genetics plays the dominant role in determining intelligence?
How would you explain the great degree of variation within Black culture and society if you went with the genetics approach. Genetics are at play so intelligence should be relatively discrete if it is a biological concept.
I can’t even believe i am still arguing with these idiocies.
I have already referenced the Development of the Person as a leading, prospective, longitudinal study that has been running for 30+ years now. The only correlation that has proven to be linked with genetics are those related to temperament.
Everything else went to wash except the ATTACHMENT RELATIONSHIP between the mother and her infant between the ages of 0-11. The Attachment relationship is correlated with almost every indicator of child mental, social, and intellectual success.
Three organized attachment styles; one disorganized attachment style:
Avoidant-resistant attachment
Anxious-resistant attachment
Secure attachment
and
Disorganized attachment
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A few examples of what I regard as excellent points worth particular consideration by people, like Doug1 and Randy, sympathetic to the ideas of white supremacy and the inborn predisposition of Black people towards inferiority in intelligence and any over areas…
and then this one:
Researching such comments would prove far more lucrative in revealing “the truth” about our present shared reality which both Doug1 and Randy are at pains to discover and point out to the rest of us here.
Instead…both Doug1 and Randy are intrinsically locked in a illusory debate over “nurture and nature” as ironically illustrated in Randy’s last statement:
“…I’m simply saying that the nurture argument cannot by itself invalidate the nature argument. It offers an alternative theory to the nature argument, but not an exclusive one, as both nature and nurture effects could be at work…”
This in itself has to speak volumes about the “smartness” or intelligence of Doug1 or Randy. Simply not knowing about or dismissing the information available when researching these comments and questions is just plain dumb in my opinion. For what its worth…
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@Doug1
It does and men generally have to take up to slack. Although it’s not as fraught to fire a white woman as it is a black of either gender, it’s a lot more fraught than firing a white man.
I did give a more comprehensive reply which I suspect has been taken off of here as it may be deemed to stray too far off topic. If it miraculously re-appears again apologies for repeating myself. I will post this on the Open Thread
Suffice to say Doug I think I can see where this is leading to. I get the distinct impression that you are not being honest with yourself but nevertheless it comes through in your commentary. I suggest that think carefully. Any minute smidgen of tolerance or credibility you may have had will disappear very quickly if you take this conversation to the depths of which I suspect you are capable of.
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Any minute smidgen of tolerance or credibility you may have had will disappear very quickly if you take this conversation to the depths of which I suspect you are capable of.”””
@ Demerera,
You are friggin astute. I feel that he is capable of tremendous hostility and violence for this subject. It actually worries me and the possibility of an innocent becoming the target of it is also a concern.
With all due respect doug1, I hope that you find a different way of perceiving others. I hope that you can look at things with a bit less hierarchy. Its not helpful for anyone.
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@ Randy
Oh, I get it. You mean like how I always thought that whites were racist assholes because of their culture but that does not invalidate the argument that they were just born that way.
Do you have any idea how fucking obscene that is? No one, NO ONE should have to defend his people against the idea that they are genetically predetermined mental defectives. NO ONE. But it is part of the fuckery of living in America while black that you do – inside your own head if no where else. And of course (sarcasm coming) that has no effect on school achievement, hiring, promotions and so on. None whatsoever.
Zek J Evets, you might remember, freaked out when I suggested that whites were genocidal because of a defect in their CULTURE. Not their genes, their culture. He was all down for calmly talking about the Defects of Black People but not about the Defects of White People. That was magically off the table for some reason. He seems to be one of those Jews who thinks he gets what it is like to be black because of the anti-Semitism he experienced growing up – and probably because he has a black girlfriend. NO HE DOES NOT. For one thing he has NEVER had his humanity seriously questioned.
Of course Jews did at one time have their humanity questioned and you know what that led to. And given America’s genocidal past, blacks could easily wind up there too. Katrina showed the world how little the American government values the lives of black people.
I am not saying that “The Bell Curve” should be banned or something. I am with Carl Sagan: ideas do more damage when they are in hiding. But the burden of proof is on those who put forth such sick ideas. And in this case it is pseudoscience all the way. Like Atlantis or UFOs. This Britannica article is clear proof of that since one of the features of a pseudoscience is the lack of growth and change.
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One of the things that bothers me is how casual most of the racist information is presented and distributed. Like it’s OK to take highly defamatory material and spread it about on the media channels like it’s all fun and games. These HBDers do it all the time. Laymen who read those hypothesis and theories aren’t trained to process the data scientifically. All they see are the base sensational elements and run wild with it. I can’t tell you how many people I’ve seen on forums such as Biodiversity who write about things they have little to no knowledge about. People go to University for many years to study these specific sciences. You just can’t read a few books and papers and think you can “school” someone in Human Genetics. I’m tired of these racist “Armchair/Weekend Biologists”.
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@JT
I would say that you are equally astute in terms of this statement:-
Does anyone else think that this need to “PROVE” Black genetic inferiority is driven by losing out to POC in the workplace? I have a strong suspicion he was privately humiliated by a POC and this is how he expresses it.
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Yes Rushton has been smeared by the far left but very unfairly. His scientific research is solid.
Yeah, right, paying for information as to how far a man can ejaculate, how often he has sex etc. Then taking these ‘finding’ and writing an article or a study about it. I see you don’t hang around many men either. How many men first all, when asked these questions, are going to answer them truthfully? In fact they may exaggerate, especially these young guys. As for their penis size they will surely lie. What man for example, is going to admit to having a one inch penis? I especially got a gut laugh where it states he got some of his information from Penthouse forum and other semi-pornographic sources. Yes his scientific research is as solid as a soup sandwich. I have said it before and I will say it again; these buffoons read like characters out of MAD magazine.
The best rebuttal you can come up with is that everyone who disagrees with you is a left wing-nut. What is your obsession with left-wing ideologues? I am beginning to think you are mentally ill, really. Either that, or you are some teenager who reads a lot of scientific and social commentary and doesn’t understand what is being written.
here is absolutely no effort among the black and far leftist white commentariate on this blog to look for the actual truth on this subject. That is what I’ve sought to do, really and truly.
I really think you are mentally ill. Since mental illness is a disease for which a person has no control of, I will stop mocking you. If it wasn’t racist delusions you hold, it would probably be religious or some other delusions about aliens or some such. I take no pleasure in mocking people who are genuinely mentally ill. My apologies.
These guys are just plain dense. They don’t want to get it. They are scared. I doubt they spew the same nonsense to black people in the real world that they do on blogs or forums. I find it hard that anyone believes the garbage they vomit unless they are nuts themselves. I have worked around mentally ill people and these particular ‘gems’ have similar thought patterns. I am starting to think they are genuinely mentally ill, not just metaphorically so.
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This is disgusting. The very idea that some white guy get’s to claim that an entire people are born with lesser faculties and are somehow defective is just ridiculous. The idea that the burden of proof to prove otherwise is somehow on the people they are talking about is even worse. People here are actually arguing for that? Are you kidding me?
There is too much genetic variety within one race to be able to pin point IQ, physical features, etc. Black people all over the world run from dumb to genius, light to dark, etc. And you can’t just decide they’re all of lower intellect and therefore should just “accept it as truth” on your word. Using crappy racist circle jerk “science” to prove some fictional point to assuage your own fears doesn’t change that. Take that from a centrist.
I think that this is all a part of an attempt to reinforce an idea of inferiority on black people. They’re the primary victims of this resurgence because we have a black president, and for the first time white superiority has been thoroughly challenged in a way racists can’t dispute. For the first time we have an intelligent, athletic, strong willed and patient black family who is always in the public eye, so black people have something that shows they are not just the faceless monolith of inferiority white people have always felt comfortable seeing. So now we have all of these HBDers and racist freaks who spend all day trying to run around showing black people on black blogs how they MUST be still inferior.
Between you and me…I think some of these people lost jobs or something to black people so this is the only way they can go without questioning their own lack of skills or ability. If they can say an entire race is intellectually inferior at the start, they feel their whiteness secures their own superiority (even if individually they under-perform or are just mediocre).
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Insightful post, Ace!
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@ Herneith
The mental illness you speak of is called White Fear.
Whites have known for sometime now that their regime will come to a smashing end. With the election of Obama, the catalyst for this insanity, coupled with the increase of blacks in the political sector, most whites are reeling from the pain.
This fear is coming at at time when the very definition of what it means to be white is challenged. As America, and Canada I suspect, moves towards a Brown Nation, where Engilsh may not always be the first language, where interracial couples with brown babies are running rampant, where gays are getting married and Muslims are worshipping near Ground Zero, whites are losing sight as to who they are.
What does it mean for them, as superiors, in a Puritanical country, where EVERYWHERE they go, there’s one of us lurking around the corner? What does it mean for them where we are owning business to which they will be employed?
Will we be fair and just?
It took me a long time to understand the white mentality.
Whites are frightened more than they can articulate.
More than they even realize. Hence the argumentative posts and lewd statements. All they can hold on to, is their colour.
Frightened, it seems, to be at long last, not to be considered special, or elite.
I almost feel bad for them.
Almost.
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Does anyone else think that this need to “PROVE” Black genetic inferiority is driven by losing out to POC in the workplace? I have a strong suspicion he was privately humiliated by a POC and this is how he expresses it.
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@ Demerera
Thank you! This is my strong suspicion. How else could he come to such flawed conclusions about a matter that he claims to know so well and purportedly had researched thoroughly.
Research is not just turning on your microscope to the side you agree with; it is challenging your preestablished notions, every assumption at a time.
Nothing he has said has made me think he even looked twice into scientific racism. He saw what he liked and he went in full board.
Because in perception psychology they teach us:
It’s not “seeing is believing;” in actuality it is “believing is seeing.”
Or another one of my professors said something like this:
“Perception is like a flashlight in a cave.”
Simple analogy but profound implications. 🙂
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@truthbetold:
About the fear, I just remembered what one of the most succesful daimios (war lords) of the history of Japan once said when all his general egged him to attack on a neighbour whom they suspected planning an attack on him. All his generals urged him to attack, he thoughed about their words and finally he anounced: A Mountain does not move.
If you are truly strong, at peace with yourself, really big and all powerful, you don’t have to attack.
The guy who said this was Takeda Shingen, a war lord who did not loose one battle except the one where he was shot, his last, and actually he did not loose that either. His army just retreated after he fell without the enemy coming after them because the enemy was affraid that it was just a trick of Takeda.
Fear makes people aggressive. People attack when they are scared. When they are nervous. When they are no sure. Just like dougie here. He grabs on something and holds it with his dear life and goes after anyone who makes him suspect his own ideas. That is profound fear.
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@ sam
Shouldn’t it be us that is fearful of becoming slaves once again? Why is it that we are always being subjected to this vitriol? What did we do?
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@ Abagond
One would think that it is the black man that has offended the world, no?
We are hated simply because we exist.
Feared for a would be criminal act.
Envied for sexual vehemence.
And copied for a suaveness that no one else possesses.
Yet, we are nothing.
Go figure.
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Belief can cure and belief can kill too. If White supremacists can convince Black people that they are genetically inferior and defective, then inferior and defective lives will be manifested in reality. It will become a self-fulfilling prophesy.
It is very important to the White worldview for Black people to be at the bottom of the racial totem pole. Any perceived deviation from this causes them great discomfort and consternation.
I once read of a man who thought he was trapped inside a freezer that was switched on and he froze to death, but later on it turned out that the freezer had been inoperative for a while, the actual temperature had been normal, but because he believed he was freezing to death he did.
White supremacists know this, that is why they relentlessly try to attack our sense of self and humanity and try to break us down psychologically by relentlessly bombarding us with this inferiority message. It is psychological warfare designed to actualise their egocentric racial fantasies.
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This just proves that white supremacy, from the radical to the pseudoscientific, has never been about logic or morals. If they were, then white supremacy, white privilege, and whiteness itself wouldn’t have existed.
In the end people like Randy and Doug1 want to maintain the idea that something is wrong with black people at all costs while picturing white people as the pillars of humanity.
They are afraid that their place at the top of the world is losing its grip. That’s one reason why people like Doug1 is always pointing out inventions and accomplishments and giving us the old “black people are less intelligent than whites” routine. (Watch. He’ll type it again soon.) That’s why Randy is always excusing Doug1 and trying to make it seem that black people have no real reason to speak out let alone be upset or angry at the racism they face constantly. They want to hold on to their whiteness as long as possible. That could be a reason why they come here, to tell us that white people are born superior and that racism is not, hasn’t been, or ever will be a factor in the lives of blacks.
Like Truthbetold said, they are afraid. Very afraid. Their fear makes them morally and logically retarded to the realities and plight of black people, and the inevitable future that their whiteness will cease to exist. Already the world is becoming more aware of the truth behind whiteness.
In the end whites will have no one to blame but themselves, but their whiteness will make them blame everyone and everything else first.
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Abagond–
Nope, it isn’t.
1.) I don’t think race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacity and have never said so. There’s more variation within each major race in e.g. IQ and other traits than between them.
I’ve never said (or thought) that whites were inherently superior to other races. I don’t used the word or the thought superior at all. My attackers here claim I do but I don’t. That word suggest a moral superiority and entitlement to special privileges which I reject. As well blacks do better than whites in a number of things both on average and at the most elite levels. They tend to be better athletes in sports where sprinting or jumping is important, they seem to have a better sense of rhythm than whites, and blacks are probably at least as good at oratory and so on.
I’ve said they and NE Asians are overall fluid intelligence (IQ) smarter than blacks, on average, which for whatever reason, whatever combination of genetic differences and cultural and environmental differences, is the scientific fact about which there’s little controversy within the relevant psychometric field. I’ve said that any definition of racist where saying the scientific truth about average racial differences is racist, is absurd, and isn’t legitimately racist. It’s called that though by the leftist bogus definition #2 of “racist”. Merriam-Webster does not even today so define racism however.
2. I don’t believe in racial discrimination; I’m against it. (I also don’t believe in “positive” racial discrimination.) I don’t believe in prejudice, or in judging an individual I’m able to learn something about by the average of their group much less by below average representative of their group. I believe in judging individuals individually.
So no I’m not a definition #1 racist. Further I don’t don’t believe in bigotry, don’t hate all or most blacks because they’re black or for any other reason, don’t try to racially bait people (as many here do whites) and so on, which was part of the old school pre 90’s widespread requirement to be considered racist by most.
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What did we do?
Stop wanting them to accept you(not you ‘you’ but in general). They either will or won’t. Since they want to be seen as the great white Bwanas, they have enacted ‘laws’ to save/help the lowly nigro combat racism. Use this against them. When they start losing cash, they start listening. Most of all, learn what day it is when it comes to racism. Kumbaya is nice and all but not in these instances.
Here’s an example; I have an ongoing situation at work where some miscreant has be penning ‘love’ letters to the black staff threatening to kill, maim, torture, kill their families, burn their homes etc.. They call for lynching to be brought back. Due to bungling from the management at the outset, this has gone on for seven years. They have done little except to try and minimize the threat so their culpability in the matter is downplayed or diminished. I have had several other racist incidences, and, as a result of the resounding silence and inaction, must seek out an outside venue to deal with these fools. People like Doug? Strip them of their verbosity and the millions of books they have read but do not understand, and you are left with the miscreant using base language like the turd writing the racist death threats to myself and the other black staff. You can’t make silk from a sow’s ear in essence when it comes to people like Doug and their ilk.
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SomeGuy–
I seriously doubt that’s really his IQ. Link please.
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Ace—
As to the former, of course, that’s what I’ve always said.
As to the later I’ve never said anything like that.
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@ Herneith,
That’s horrible. I hope that someone apprehends this vermin soon. Has noone called the police on them, anonymously?
I mean if you were worried about repercussions, there has to be a way around that. Maybe managment is involved in the whole thing, which is why they have been bungling it for so long.
Yay! Doug1 is back.
*sparkler fizzles out*
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@ Doug1,
Please don’t try to whitewash more history.
Just save it.
Noone cares what you’re going to say.
We all see through your transparent gestures.
Your contention is that in the “bell curve” distribution of intelligence quotients, the black mean is lower than the white mean.
Then you try and create some garbled excuse for this preposterous theory by throwing 1994 genetic theory behind you.
And an intelligent test made by and for, white people.
This is the epitome of junk science.
Right up there with the dude that needs to know Black penis sizes for his research.
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@ Doug
” 2. I don’t believe in racial discrimination; I’m against it. (I also don’t believe in “positive” racial discrimination.) I don’t believe in prejudice, or in judging an individual I’m able to learn something about by the average of their group much less by below average representative of their group. I believe in judging individuals individually.
So no I’m not a definition #1 racist. Further I don’t don’t believe in bigotry, don’t hate all or most blacks because they’re black or for any other reason, don’t try to racially bait people (as many here do whites) and so on, which was part of the old school pre 90’s widespread requirement to be considered racist by most.”
Doug, you lie.
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Abagond:
Rhetorically and logically speaking, that is correct.
You’re inserting a value judgement suggesting that potential differences in capacity are equivalent to differences in human value. I’d argue against this association.
For example, Rift Valley Africans appear to have physiological adaptations allowing them to dominate in long distance running events. Does this imply that people who aren’t from the Rift Valley in African are less valuable members of humanity? Of course not.
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@ Randy
Are you racist? Why or why not.
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Herneith said:
“When they start losing cash, they start listening.”
True. But I’ve seen poor uneducated whites vote against their own best interest in the sake of white pride.
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Abagond:
By the definition you previously posted, no.
However, I recognize the scientific fact that morphological differences exist among populations of people. I don’t believe that these differences imply that some groups are less “human” than others, as the very term “human” by definition encompasses all people.
I have noticed the tendency for personal biases to impact the process of scientific inquiry, an apparently common human frailty which I abhor. Thus, in this discussion, I’ve offered a rhetorical perspective as an amicus curiae in order to contribute to the discourse.
Contrary to what you might think, I hope that cognitive and behavioral differences among populations of people are much less than commonly suggested by “HBD” proponents, as that would set a disheartening upper bound on the potential of certain regions and their descendants.
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Read his autobiography, Avoid Boring People.
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@ doug
So, basically your stance is “I’m not racist, because all this information is true!”?
You crack me up.
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@ Randy
My whole issue is this: I don’t trust most White people to fairly judge the capacities of non-White people. It’s a Conflict of Interest. You don’t allow the Police to police themselves. You have Internal Affairs to do that. It’s in White people’s best interest to use any weapon available to keep so-called minorities in an inferior position.
Like I told Doug, you know darn well you wouldn’t trust the same type of charges which are leveled at Black folks to be leveled at you by a team of African scientists. You know you wouldn’t. So don’t blame any non-White person for being suspicious about dubious claims of obvious inferiority. And don’t equate spear chucking, bone jumping and finger snapping with intellect. You know intelligence has a greater value.
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Yes, in part. Not the only reason but a part of the reason.
So why does that “crack you up?”, idioso.
Who’s IQ well above 124 I seriously doubt on the basis of your individual responses on this and a few other threads.
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Resorting to such rhetoric? Down to just fumes now are you, Douglas? Thanks. Ha!
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@ someguy
Doug would feel so much better if he just said what was on his mind.
No false pretext, just raw truth.
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Idioso? What are you going to blame your insults on now, Doug? Bourbon? Gin? A nice Chardonnay?
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@ Someguy
No…racism.
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Doug1,
But you have tried to provide evidence to why black people are less intelligent according to “science”, so how are you not arguing that black people have lower intelligence?
My problem with your statements are that you are still trying to say that Black people are inferior, even though you claim you aren’t. We know what your saying, it’s been said time and time again by all sorts of “not really racist” racists. It’s coded language. People here are just tired of being told that they’re supposed to accept some white guy’s view of their “inferiority” while that same guy refuses to accept that they would know better. Its grating because black people have prove for centuries that they are capable, but there are still people even now trying to argue crap that was disproven in the early 1900s.
Should the people here accept that they are still (despite all of SATs, college degrees, etc.) somehow intellectually inferior when they personally know that is not true? Why is it on them to prove they’re as smart as white people instead of being on white people to prove they’re not?
Also, using the Asian example is also a poor one because it forces them into some monolithic group of geniuses so that you can depreciate another group and excuse your own prejudice. The majority of Asians are just as average as anyone else, with extremes in either direction like anyone else. Using them as your model minority example to prove a point seems like bad taste at best, especially since that is a stigma they have to deal with everyday.
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@ Ace
Part of being white is the reasoning that blacks and other people of colour should just accept being inferior to them. I learned that years ago with many examples at work, in my own neighborhood when I tried to beautify my home and in life, generally speaking.
To act against this seems…unnatural to them.
Hence the term Uppity Negro.
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@ Truthbetold,
It seems like black people just can’t win. It can be so frustrating, because there are so many underachieving and just plain stupid white people in the world and yet they’re somehow the “best” no matter what. However everyone else is supposed to just sit there, nod and self-depreciate themselves. It’s hypocrisy at it’s best.
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and blacks are probably at least as good at oratory and so on.
How can they be if they have on average 70 IQ? They would barely be able to talk.
I believe in judging individuals individually.
Say what, yep. Explain it to us sah, we don’t understand you.
Who’s IQ well above 124 I seriously doubt on the basis of your individual responses on this and a few other threads.
My IQ is 5,000 when it comes to shopping. Is that genetic or environmental. Or is it because there is a sale on at Crate and Barrel? Discuss! I can also predict BINGO numbers. Is that related to IQ?
Idioso? What are you going to blame your insults on now, Doug? Bourbon? Gin? A nice Chardonnay?
He’s just had supper and a few ‘beverages’!~put his feet up and with his laptop on his lap, he’s typing away! Liquor does that to some people! Here’s Doug doing what he does best especially after a few:
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@truthtobetold:
You did nothing. Racism is a power structure. It is because somebody somewhere benefits from it. It never had nor it never has had or will have any scientific or moral bases. There is no natural reasons, there is no biological reasons, there is no causal reasons.
Racism exists only because it is beneficial for someone. Doug here is a racist because it makes him feel better about himself. The majority of racists are like that. It gives them self esteem when they have none or very little of it. It is like father christmas: after all, even if I am less than zero, I am always better than THOSE. “I’m a better person” if only for the race.
But the structural racism in USA is beneficial for the elite. Keeping millions of people down, the elite can keep the price of labour down. Millions of un educated poor blacks are the leverage which can be used against labour and push down the salaries. That is one reason. Another is political.
By keeping racism alive, by keeping millions of blacks without a right to vote (as felons) the elite can control the political process. Majority of those who have no right to vote, would vote for liberal or radical programs, at least democrats. By keeping them from voting, the elite has been able to turn the tide.
The prison indistry works this way: it makes millions of dollars for some, it keeps blacks in jails and after that without the right to vote, thus controlling votes directly. It also works this way: by installing new prisons into mainly white conservative counties and regions, the political process is twisted because allthough the felons can not vote (guys in jails of course can not) the prison population is counted as living in the area. Ergo, the area gets more representation in elections. Even though its free voting population might be diminishing or small a prison of 2000 convicts gets that area bigger representation.
Why this was done? For the same reason why labour unions were attacked by the elite. In late 1960’s blacks were the most unionised work force. They were becoming a political force in real sense. After the civil rights fights they had awaken as a mass. They represented a real and direct treath to the economical elite and to the political elite. They could turn the country upside down. That had to be stopped and the easiest and fastest way was to do these thing simultainiously: start the prison economy, start the breaking of the unions etc. When very well done political propaganda was added to the soup, things started to turn back into what the elite wanted them to be.
Just to show you how far things have gone: there are litterally dozens of movies which were done in Hollywood in late 1960’s and early 70’s which would nor could never be done today. Midnight cowboy won Oscars, the only X rated movie to do so. It would never be done or distributed today. Just one example.
Tv-show like Soap was actually canceled because the pressure from the right wing and reaganics, religious sects and conservatives. Why? Because the smartest guy in that show was actually the black butler who told it as it was? Because it was a parody or political satire of the “white life”? Who knows. Outloud it was because of the positive homosexual carachter played by Billy Crystal.
All those progressive movements of the 60’s, womens rights, minority rights etc. were eliminated one way or the other. Native americans were sucked into the game by getting them exited by the casino industry. You think it was an accident that it happened almost at the same time across the USA? It is a very good tool to break the unity of a tribe. Just make some guys really rich and there you go!
Sorry about the lenght of this rambling. But this is my take on why racism, those same things said in the book in 1911, are still alive and well in USA. It is beneficial for some.
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truthbetold…“…We are hated simply because we exist. Feared for a would be criminal act. Envied for sexual vehemence. And copied for a suaveness that no one else possesses.”
While I’d agree with your observation on fear, envy and the apprpriation of our culture, I think the main reason is your first listed. Because, as long as we exist – We are the evidence of their inhumane crimes.
They can lie all they wan,t about what they’ve not done and continue to “not” do!) to Africans the world over. But it won’t wash – too much proof out there to the contrary.
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@ Doug1
You are the one being absurd: every racist thinks his racism is true. Duh. People only believe in what they think is true. Even madmen.
Words mean whatever you, Doug1, want them to mean. How nice. Just like science says whatever you, Doug1, want it to say, dismissing the parts you do not like as left-wing. Wow. That is not called intellectual integrity. That is called being a two-year-old.
It is pointless to talk to you any more except as moderator. I am deleting anything of yours that appears in moderation as the verbal garbage that it is.
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@ Sam,
I disagree on your first sentence. I think that Truthbetold, like many other black people, have committed the greatest crime of all in the eyes of racists, they don’t let racists tell them who and what they are.
Your post was interesting…I honestly believe that the justice system targets people of color and the poor, and they are the harshest with black men and women. But this has been going on since it was convenient to criminalize blackness… But I don’t believe that the prison situation is the main part of the problem, I feel that there is an overall need to cripple people of color (at least the undesirable ones) while still keeping them productive (hence the “put poor kids to work as janitors” idea). If it weren’t crime, or the IQ argument, it would be something stupid. As long as we can have cheap labor with PoC who feel they don’t deserve better, white people can still have their huge piece of the pie with half of the competition.
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@ Deb,
Considering that in this country black people have only had some semblance of equality since the mid sixties, there are pretty recent crimes they have to try really hard to forget. That’s not even counting other countries like South Africa.
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@ SomeGuy
I noticed that too: We are not white supremacists. We think blacks chuck spears better than whites do.
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Doug1 & Randy need to face the facts:
The White race has lost.
The human race has won.
Please fade into history alongside the millions of other white nationalists throughout history that will be forgotten for everything except for their crimes and hatefulness.
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SomeGuy:
I would try to judge the actual scientific processes and data, but I get your point.
SomeGuy:
Whether or not morphological differences in cognition between populations of people exists will have absolutely nothing to do with our desire for that outcome. Nature is utterly dispassionate and uncaring about human values. It is what it is, whatever that turns out to be.
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@ Randy
Heres a reasonable and straight question by Abagond which your having difficulty answering. so it worth repeating if you want to have another go…
Ok Randy now how about you give your own answer based on your own definition (whatever that is) of why you are racist or not.
This should not be seen as a trick question but an attempt to elucidate further understanding which your obtuse comments so far tend to elude.
Think of it in terms of answering the simple question: Are you married? Why or why not. Note in your first reply this is not clear at all.
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@ Kwamla
The reason for skirting around the question is because he’s racist.
I truly have contempt for racists who try to hide themselves.
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@ Doug1
The same question applies to you too Doug1. Yes. You have attempted to answer by supplying a series of responses with:
“..Nope, it isn’t.;.. I don’t think;… I don’t believe;…I don’t used the word or the thought superior at all;…I’ve never said (or thought);…etc…etc…
Your pattern of responses is characteristic of a person in denial and on the defensive. Which is why too many commentators, I read here, are constantly and repeatedly asking in different ways: What are you in denial of ? And what are you defending?
Not that the answer isn’t really obvious to many people, of course.!!!
But (just like Randy) in the absence of affirmative or positive responses you end up placing yourself firmly in the same category you’re already fiercely tying to deny: RACIST
Now tell me I am not telling you something you don’t already know?
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Kwamla:
With a term as contentious and wide-ranging in definition as “racist”, one must first agree upon the meaning of the word. So rather than dodging the question, I was attempting to answer it in the least ambiguous way possible.
By my own definition of the term I would also answer “no”.
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@ Kwamla
Most whites would rather have their arm chewed off by a werewolf with mad cow disease than to admit to being a racist.
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@ Randy
Why are you here?
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@ truthbetold
What you say is so true. The problem they have is due to their warped understanding of what racism is they actually believe they can “intellectually” fool you into believing that they are not!
Its kind of ironic really…
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Ace..“…there are pretty recent crimes they have to try really hard to forget. “
Agreed
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@ Randy,
Most whites would rather have their arm chewed off by a werewolf with mad cow disease than to admit to being a racist.
This is hardly likely to happen in a forum like this so what prevents you from sharing your definition with everyone?
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Ah, the tap-dance continues…
Funny thing is, the question has been broken down to its basics by brothawolf, sam, abagond, Deb, and numberous others:
“Based on the DEFINITION OF RACISM, AS DEFINED BY THE DICTIONARY, ‘Are you a racist?’ ”
Secondarily, “If so, why?”
It’s been asked quite directly and simply…
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I can’t spear chuck, ‘bone’ jump(what’s that?), or finger snap(the last time I tried I almost broke my fingers!), and have a 20 IQ! I am f____d!
Think of it in terms of answering the simple question: Are you married? Why or why not. Note in your first reply this is not clear at all.
Don’t encourage him lest he go off on a tangent deconstructing, decompressing, de whatevering his answer. I prefer the blatant racist like Dr. Grizlickson who will tell you they hate you, albeit in a comical way. You will not get a straight answer. They are better than the lowly unwashed massed of low-class whites, that’s for sure! Nope, you won’t get a straight answer.
Now tell me I am not telling you something you don’t already know?
Believe me, you are telling him something he already knows, just like the alcoholic, he is in denial. Something must happen to make him admit this to himself. Barring that he will attempt to couch it in verbosity and ‘logic’.
By my own definition of the term I would also answer “no”.
How convenient.
Most whites would rather have their arm chewed off by a werewolf with mad cow disease than to admit to being a racist.
This is hardly likely to happen in a forum like this so what prevents you from sharing your definition with everyone?
I’d hazard a guess and say vampires and zombies. Really, it boils down to class. He ain’t like those poor, unedumacated whites! He wants to appear ‘cerebral’ and intellectual. Strip away the verbosity and he is exactly the same as that he wants to distance himself from, the ignorant racist white. You can’t make silk from a sow’s ear, when will Randy and his ilk learn this. OOps, they are to obtuse to!
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Satirically deconstructing and on point as usual Herneith!!!
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Ha! I have no clue. I was going for the whole “stream of consciousness” thing. I was attempting to imitate the type of mentality of a dyed-in-the-wool racist. Perhaps I was channeling the late William S. Burroughs.
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What you say is so true. The problem they have is due to their warped understanding of what racism is they actually believe they can “intellectually” fool you into believing that they are not!
Its kind of ironic really…
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@ Kwamla Hesse
What you say is so true. The presumption of their own superior intelligence is equally parts ridiculous and galling.
I don’t know why Abagond tolerates them.
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@ JT
You obviously realize this JT.
I would speculate Abagond tolerates then just in case they actually do have something of note to say. I would tolerate (if it where my blog) them just to keep abreast of current racist ideological thinking. Which they at least feel an obligation to pass on.
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Kwamla:
My definition of racism goes something like this: “Prejudice against someone due to race or ethnic origin.” The first part of the dictionary definition, as to whether or not differences exist between people of different races, is a factual issue disguised as a values issue. Science will sort that out eventually, and I’ll naturally accept whatever arises out of such inquiry. Until then I’ll remain undecided.
sepultura13
I actually answered that question here:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/02/28/black-people-according-to-the-1911-britannica/#comment-115886
Herneith:
I answered the question in the manner in which Kwamla asked it. Come on now, you can troll better than that.
truthbetold
Evolution, same’s you. That and the enjoyment of a lively debate on an interesting subject matter.
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“I would speculate Abagond tolerates then just in case they actually do have something of note to say. I would tolerate (if it where my blog) them just to keep abreast of current racist ideological thinking.”
***********************************************
With all due respect to blog owners: here, elsewhere, present, future…
Keeping abreast of current racist thinking is like keeping informed of the latest stench, weight, color, hue, texture of bile, vomit, puke and every other vile negative thing that can come out of demon led racists. To those who have the stomach for such things … PROPS!!!
At any rate, it’s the *actions* of racists that most concerns me. Their words are pretty much meaningless, and as empty as their spiritually challenged souls.
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Evolution, same’s you. That and the enjoyment of a lively debate on an interesting subject matter.
“””
It’s nice that you are able to talk about people like pawns.
Reveals something about you; that you are an emotionally isolated from people more widely. Problem a corollary of being socially isolated.
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@ JT
I do not kick people off because I disagree with them. I kick them off because they are unable to be civil, remain somewhat on topic and follow the rules in the comment policy.
Randy is good at following rules so he will probably be here for as long as he likes. Doug1, on the other hand, thinks he is above everything. Sooner or later that will cause him to do something that will get him banned.
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@ Bulanik,
You’re right I think It might have initially gone into abagond’s spam inbox because of the link.
I found it interesting that in your own unconnected researches you’ve actually begun discovering areas such as: Neanderthal DNA and Melanin which, although heavily studied and researched by science, the results of which have generally gone unpublicized. This has lead to profound ignorance in these areas. Even though they could fundamentally influence some of these debates on genetics, racism, white supremacy and the supposed inferiority of Black/African peoples on this planet.
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@Randy
For someone who purports to express themselves with some degree of intellectual rigor and preciseness that is a poor definition by any standards.
Particularly for someone actively, regularly, commenting on a blog like this discussing issues of racism in depth and for several years?
Surely even you should be able to discern from your own words:
“… whether or not differences exist between people of different races, is a factual issue disguised as a values issue Science will sort that out eventually, and I’ll naturally accept whatever arises out of such inquiry. Until then I’ll remain undecided….”
You are not “undecided” because you believe racial differences are FACTUAL. Nothing wrong with that. I too believe, and I am sure many others would, the same thing. Just like we believe there are factual gender differences between men and women.
The real question IS the “value” of those factual differences and whether they intrinsically define cultural attributes we ascribe as important like: intelligence, smartness, cleverness etc..
You believe (along with Doug1) they do. But you are prepared to wait for science to authoritatively determine this. That… Randy is your real Belief conveniently disguised in your own words.
So does this still, by your own definition, make you/not make you a Racist?
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Kwamla:
I would agree that my definition was imprecise. Yours is better.
The degree which group differences exist and to what degree they manifest in areas such as intelligence, behavior, etc is unknown to me.
Asking whether or not I think they do is analogous to asking if I believe in the Higgs boson. If it’s proven to be there, I’ll believe in it. If not, I won’t. I feel no need to prejudge the outcome before all of the data are in. Doug1 appears to lack the same uncertainty. That’s a significant divergence of opinion.
I will say that even if these differences are proven to exist, I suspect that environmental influences (aka “nurture”) is a much larger driver of human behavior and potential for success.
A question for you:
1.Do you believe that it’s been scientifically proven beyond a reasonable doubt that all population groups are exactly identical in terms of their various cognitive and behavioral predispositions?
Personally, I’m rather suspicious whenever science purportedly returns a “too perfect” answer with regards to a topic which people happen to be culturally sensitive about.
Nature is utterly and bleakly indifferent to the feelings of its creatures, so one ought not to expect the natural world to ever pleasingly align with our biases or preferences.
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abagond–
I don’t believe that blacks have on average significantly lower Intelligence
Quotients than whites or NE Asians on the basis of irrational prejudice or the delusions of a madman. I believe it after looking at the science. I believe it knowing that’s what almost 100 years of IQ tests often done on very large sample sizes have consistently shown. They’ve shown a 1 – 1.1 SD difference between those of blacks and whites. It’s not even controversial within the relevant field of psychometrics, or the science of measuring mental traits.
The main racial controversy within psychology is how much of the difference is due to immutable genetic differences, and how much is due to possibly changeable cultural ones (though no one’s figured out how to durably much close the gap despite 40 years of trying very hard in the social sciences and in education.
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@doug: Oh no. You really need to study more science and let those IQ tests rest for a while. Come back when you have studied the tests and their history.
@randy: There are cultural differences among the people. Not biological. Black americans are seen only as americans in vast parts of the world because that is what they are culturally. You would be seen as the Same with a black american since you both come from there. Outsiders would not make a differece between you two by the color of your skin. That is why iraqis see ALL US soldiers as americans. No matter what color they are.
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@Doug1
Just because you repeat it over and over again, like the German people did “Heil Hitler!,” doesn’t make it true.
You need mental rehab. As soon as possible.
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I don’t believe that blacks have on average significantly lower Intelligence
Quotients than whites or NE Asians on the basis of irrational prejudice or the delusions of a madman.
The delusions of a madman….Hmmm. If the shoes fits wear it. Doug you are filled with gaseous anomalies!
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IQ Tests Measure Effort, Too
Charles Q. Choi
An IQ score may say more about whether you’re a hard worker or a slacker than about how smart you are. And hard work may be at least as important as intelligence in determining who will be a successful student and adult, researchers say.
An IQ score can dramatically misjudge intelligence, depending on how motivated the person is when taking the IQ test, scientists discovered.
Academic performance, level of education, job performance, criminal record and even physical health and longevity are often linked to the person’s intelligence quotient, or IQ score, which tends to suggest intelligence is primarily responsible for all these outcomes.
But do intelligence tests really measure intelligence and only intelligence?
“I was giving IQ tests to children and realized that there was a fair amount of variation in results that seemed to vary on how hard kids tried,” said researcher Angela Lee Duckworth, a psychologist at the University of Pennsylvania who focuses on differences between individuals.
To see what effects motivation had on IQ scores, Duckworth and her colleagues analyzed 46 separate, previously collected datasets involving more than 2,000 volunteers given incentives such as money or candy for taking such tests. The researchers found that incentives noticeably boosted IQ scores, with the increase most pronounced for test-takers who had posted lower IQ scores when not given incentives. [Children Who Get Spanked Have Lower IQs]
“IQ test scores do not necessarily reflect a child or adult’s actual intelligence, particularly when we give IQ tests under circumstances where there are no consequences for good or bad scores,” Duckworth told LiveScience.
In other words, earning a high IQ score is apparently linked with both high intelligence and high motivation, and a low score could result from the lack of either factor.
The scientists also analyzed more than 250 boys as they took intelligence tests, judging them for signs of low motivation, such as refusing to attempt tasks, forcing the examiners to work hard to get them to try a task, or expressing the desire for the exams to end as quickly as possible. The researchers found that boys with lower motivation typically showed lower IQs.
These boys were part of a long-term study that followed them from adolescence to early adulthood. The researchers found that once motivation was taken into account, how well or poorly the boys did on the IQ test was less predictive of how they did later in life in terms of academic achievement, level of education, employment status and number of criminal convictions. This contradicted past findings suggesting that IQ is linked with all these elements.
“IQ scores may predict various outcomes in life, but in part for reasons that intelligence tests weren’t designed for,” Duckworth said. Sheand her colleagues detailed their findings online April 25 in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.
“The most important implication of this work is that people’s IQ may have been misestimated by an indefinite amount,” said University of Michigan psychologist Richard Nisbett, who did not participate in this research. “One future direction would be to see if there is any link here with, say, socioeconomic status.”
Some people might say that motivation is part of intelligence, “but I think most people would say they are not the same, that we know friends who are brilliant but never get anything done for lack of trying,” Duckworth said. “One direction this research can go from here is to show how people might do better in life if they worry less about intelligence and more on how hard they work, which appears to matter at least as much to success.”
“Duckworth and colleagues have produced a great research study, but the fact that one of the most prestigious scientific journals in the world would publish a study showing motivation is important in test performance and its predictive outcomes — duh! — shows how off-track our society has gone in its acceptance of commercial persuasive appeals to buy into standardized tests as some kind of panacea for predicting almost any outcome in life that we value,” said psychologist Robert Sternberg at Oklahoma State University. “Little wonder that in many Asian societies with much higher levels of achievement in school, the emphasis is on motivation rather than on so-called ability-test scores.”
Sternberg calls these standardized tests “minor cosmetic variants of tests used a century ago,” suggesting instead we should recognize that various skills are needed for success in life.
Sternberg suggested we also seek “to assess motivation as well as creativity, practical skills, wisdom, and even ethics. If we did, we might find our society advancing to levels of economic productivity — and, for that matter, well-being — that we previously believed to be out of reach.”
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The research on IQ and race by Arthur Jensen, William Shockley, Herrnstein and Murray (The Bell Curve) and others have not found any significant correlations between race and intelligence. They have found correlations between race and IQ, which has been used to support the notion that some races are intellectually inferior to others. Not surprising is the fact that different researchers using different data get different results. Richard Lynn and James Flynn came to quite different conclusions regarding Asian IQ, for example.
Race and IQ, not race and intelligence. A subtle, but significant difference.
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@ Randy,
“…I would agree that my definition was imprecise. Yours is better…”
I did not actually give you my definition of racism only offered you a more precise interpretation of yours. However… would you also agree that you have effectively side-stepped, avoided or totally ignored this basically simple question…yet again…
“…So does this still, by your own definition, make you/not make you a Racist?
A simple Yes or No answer would suffice.
Your response reminds me of an important classic scientific experiment illustrated by the following image:
One of the original scientific paradoxes – schrodinger’s cat –. Which beautifully illustrates the point of the “observer” and the “observed” OR Believing is Seeing…
I think Bulanik already commented on this subject in depth earlier…
In this experiment scientists who believed the cat was dead opened the box to find this was so…But then scientists who believed it was alive opened the box to find this was also true.
So which image do you see Randy?
In answer to your question:
“…Do you believe that it’s been scientifically proven beyond a reasonable doubt that all population groups are exactly identical in terms of their various cognitive and behavioral predispositions?…”
The simple answer would be NO…
But the question itself is meaningless and produces results of no real value. Consider applying this test to a set of identical twins. It would still produce the same result – NO!
In fact it would always produce the same result regardless of the “supposedly” identical criteria suplied. In my view a better or more meaningful worded question would be:
“…Do you believe that it’s been scientifically proven beyond a reasonable doubt that all population groups have the potential to be similar in terms of their various cognitive and behavioral predispositions?…”
And the simple answer would be YES!
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The image did not appear so here is the link:
One of the original scientific paradoxes – schrodinger’s cat -. Which beautifully illustrates the point of the “observer” and the “observed” OR Believing is Seeing…
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Never, because even gay people are willing to debase him based on his race because many of them still see themselves as white with a more important claim for equality.
The humanity of a black man (especially to rights movements headed by white people, see feminists as well) is often directly related to how much he does what they want him to.
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Ace…“The humanity of a black man (especially to rights movements headed by white people, see feminists as well) is often directly related to how much he does what they want him to.”
Very astute observation
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@ Deb,
Yep, the more black people act according to what they want the better their treatment, but God help them if they don’t act like a monolith who all support white headed issues. Then they’re all unredeemable and the cause of all intolerance in the world. The they become more childlike and unworthy of voting privileges and we start seeing stuff like “lower IQs” again.
@Bulanik,,
Great little cartoon, it is so true. White women forget that they’re sort of treated way better than women of color, they’re womanhood has always been worshiped, to the point where they were the cause of entire towns being razed to the ground. They also opposed black people getting the vote, and sat smiling at lynchings as if they didn’t have a care in the world. We forget that they weren’t truly ever supportive of any black equality as a whole. While some white women truly risked their lives for equality (Like Viola Liuzzo), they were housewives and students, not the feminists of today.
Yep, I’ve also noticed it as a member of the LGBTQ community. A lot of white people in that community seem to think the rights of white gays and lesbians are more important than the transgendered members, or just people of color in general. There’s this idea that there’s no intersectionality so you have to give up your racial identity in order to belong to any other one, while at the same time put your own disenfranchisement on the back burner. White people are never asked to do that, however.
Hell, even PETA isn’t above mentally scarring blacks in order to spread their message (along with equating black people to animals).
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Kwamla:
I’ve already answered the question, but here it is again: “no”.
I would agree with you that “believing” can often influence “seeing”. However, as fields of scientific inquiry mature, and as discovery methods become more sophisticated, personal biases tend to disappear amid a preponderance of objective evidence.
(As a friendly aside, allow me to share that the “schrodinger’s cat” thought experiment does not address the “believing is seeing” phenomenon. It’s strictly an illustration of how sub-atomic particles can exhibit superposition, and occupy all possible states until they are measured, at which point the wave function collapses and the particle “decides” which state it’s in)
Kwamla:
I somewhat agree, although when talking about large populations, the aggregate values ought to counterbalance individual variances.
Kwamla:
This definition is also problematic without a clear explanation of the term “potential to be similar”.
Perhaps to avoid an unnecessary debate on semantics we can settle on the term “indistinguishable”. In other words, any population of people ought to be indistinguishable from another based solely upon an analysis of cognitive and behavioral metrics.
But let’s keep in mind that such characteristics are just one dimension in which populations may potentially manifest differences. Implying that any such differences demonstrate the superiority of one group over another is quite a separate field of debate. I think that this is an important point to remember.
Lastly, I find it rather amusing that that you should bring up the “believing is seeing” concept. Quite a few commenters on this blog have imputed that I must possess bigoted and discriminatory beliefs and practices just because I’m white and don’t personally subscribe to the PC Thought Police-approved “guilt-wracked and self-flagellating European” routine. And yet I’ve not advocated for any such bigotry.
Quite the opposite. Unlike certain “HBD” proponents, I don’t believe that predominantly black communities which are riven by crime and other social pathologies are the result of black residents simply reaching their genetic “Peter Principle” limitations, endemically unable to achieve greater levels of peace and prosperity.
Perhaps you and some of the others here ought to examine your own biases.
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I don’t believe that blacks have on average significantly lower Intelligence
Quotients than whites or NE Asians on the basis of irrational prejudice or the delusions of a madman. I believe it after looking at the science.
Doug, there have been sciences that dispel that kind of “science”. Yet, as we’ve seen from you over and over again, you dismiss as some sort of biased agenda from the left.
If you disagree with the mindset of the left, that’s fine, but using it as an argument against counter-evidence is not a wise move. It reveals YOU have more of a political agenda rather than a scientific one. Why else would you refute so quickly that any evidence that shows that race is not biological is a political scheme from left-wingers?
Also, I want to point out that another infamous race-realist who used to come here told me the same thing about how science proved that blacks are inferior in some way. It seems to me you people already have those mindsets about blacks prior to diving into the pool of pseudo-science, but you needed something solid to help give you a reason to think of blacks as “less-than”. So, you hear about the concept of race realism, read the texts, copied the texts to use in blogs, and use them as the holy commandments for your racism.
At the same time, any evidence to the contrary is not approached only as pseudo-science, but as a plan to undermine your movement for racism. Thus, it is seen more as a political move, not a scientific move.
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@brothawolf:
That is it. It is extremely funny that these racists seem to be totally unable to understand the difference of poltical idea and science or how they relate and influence on each other.
And yet, this whole thread is about the race politics veiled as science (just look at the pictures of 1911!!).
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@Sam,
Great point there, it’s funny because it’s a self-fullfilling prophecy. Political ideology is scientific fact when it’s convenient, and science is just political ideology when it isn’t.
@Bulanik,
Thanks!
Ah…wow…thanks for that link…I’m gonna have to post a better comment there, but for now I’ll say that is a great point. A perfect example of how a lack of intersectionality can really harm the least powerful members of a movement. It sure can be devastating to those who’s gender and race do not allow them any dominant privilege what so ever.
And yeah, PETA’s just one, I got a hundred more. Going to a mostly white university which still had a large amount of people of color (who were fairly integrated) allowed me to see how often people of color (especially black people) are dehumanized and used to benefit white run movements that profess to want to be intersectional. Anti-abortion, feminism, the libertarians, men’s rights, heck even the liberal, secular and humanist movements! We had ’em all!
I think it fits exactly with the article up top because back people are the easiest to dehumanize with that “evidence” whenever someone wants a faceless enemy to scapegoat or “evidence” of the “societal ill” they are trying to fight.
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@ Bulanik,
I’ve noticed how much it fits together recently, especially if I look at how the President is portrayed and compare it to the picture at the top of Abagond’s initial post.
The news just makes itself, there’s always someone on to say something stupid. On the Universities…the only reason why I even know is because those movements always wanted to show up on certain days of the week with their signs, posters and bullhorns and they always crowd up the main mall arguing with students. I’ve had some specifically stop black people for the “Black People According to the 1911 Britannica” version of the situation, (you know, where black people are monkeys/cattle/doomed to failure with no parenting and a death trap in their uterus who should all line up to support my cause to fix themselves). They especially like to show “visual aids” to prove their point. I actually am tempted to make a bingo for it one day.
Your absolutely right there, I agree. I just didn’t want to go over the top with a long reply again, because it’s hard for me to respond to something so poignant without some lengthy tl;dr response. But it’s always interrelated. I can garuntee that someone could have an example of just how the that image of black people (or their supposed “lower IQs”) detailed at the top is used with devastating results on black women, who often get special attention from racists.
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@ Bulanik,
Thats an excellent insight and commentary you’ve provided with that link concerning sexism in the 60’s/70’s Black Panther Party. I never knew anything about this.
I would also have to agree with your last statement:
“…Regarding relevancy. It’s clear though that talk about women and sexism – for example – can not, should not – always be considered immaterial, irrelevant and only worth of – wait for it – The Open Thread…”
In my view these issues are all relevant and all related but all too easily isolated or subsumed.
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@ Randy
Now you may think this quote doesn’t apply to your own mindset.(more applicable to Doug1’s) And in a way I would probably agree with you…But you are definitely looking down the path and heading in that direction!
The reason?
Well, you believe you can, in your words, objectively sit on the fence, be undecided, impartial…but you can’t!. You can only think you can. Therein lies your mindset. By the way, illustrated beautifully by this piece in your last comment.
“…I would agree with you that “believing” can often influence “seeing”. However, as fields of scientific inquiry mature, and as discovery methods become more sophisticated, personal biases tend to disappear amid a preponderance of objective evidence.
(As a friendly aside, allow me to share that the “Schrodinger cat” thought experiment does not address the “believing is seeing” phenomenon. It’s strictly an illustration of how sub-atomic particles can exhibit superposition, and occupy all possible states until they are measured, at which point the wave function collapses and the particle “decides” which state it’s in)…”
This actually ties in with a comment I made to Bulanik about sexism and racism. And about how all these issues are relevant and interrelated.This is what you too are still unable to see.
Randy. You’re totally missing the bigger picture because you’re insisting on viewing everything in isolation, separate from you…and again its not!
Sorry, but just to correct you what the scientific experiment with “Schrodinger’s cat” proved for quantum physicists is the relevance and importance of the relationship between the Observer and the Observed And this is the bigger picture I am referring to.
I agree with your “friendly aside” description of the experiment accept for one crucial point:
“… the wave function collapses and the particle “decides” which state it’s in…”
NO!
You…the (Observer) focusing on the particle (Observed) decide which state the particle ends up in. In other words it is you, the Observer, who influences or determines this – NOT the particle itself (Observed)
Understandably this was a shocking revelation in science when it was discovered that scientists could actually influence the data they were observing!…So much for non-bias, impartiality and objectivity!!!
(Hmmm…I wonder if this has any relevance to “science” of IQ testing and objectively measuring intelligence…Hmmm…I must check this out…!.)
Again…this is beautifully illustrated in this picture of the cat: http://scienceblogs.com/sciencepunk/schrodingercat.jpg .You determine what you see: ALIVE or DEAD !
Do you see this bigger picture Randy or Not? Then perhaps you would like to re-examine this last part of your statement again:
“…Lastly, I find it rather amusing that that you should bring up the “believing is seeing” concept. Quite a few commenters on this blog have imputed that I must possess bigoted and discriminatory beliefs and practices just because I’m white and don’t personally subscribe to the PC Thought Police-approved “guilt-wracked and self-flagellating European” routine. And yet I’ve not advocated for any such bigotry…”
So according to your own definition of racism. You are not a racist because you’ve not decided to become one yet?
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@Ace:
A lot of white people in that community seem to think the rights of white gays and lesbians are more important than the transgendered members, or just people of color in general.
These white gays want what their straight white heterosexual counter-parts have, the full privilege of whiteness. They don’t care about their black counter-parts except to sexually fetishize them. They are shocked and surprised when blacks don’t jump on their bandwagon. The new ‘blacks’ is their clarion call. With whites breeding less, they need all the help they can get for the future. They will look less meanly at the white homosexual. They will give them ‘equality, not because this is the right thing to do in a democratic secular nation, but because it will extend their power and privilege. They don’t give a shi+ about black gays in particular or blacks in general. The reaction after the Proposition 8, is proof of this.
There’s this idea that there’s no intersectionality so you have to give up your racial identity in order to belong to any other one, while at the same time put your own disenfranchisement on the back burner. White people are never asked to do that, however.
How convenient for them! I hope many of the black gays are not lulled by this and have their own special interest groups apart from the white gays. They will do nothing to help the black gays when they will be on par with other whites. When someone questions the white gays about not having much black inclusion, they accuse blacks of being ‘homophobic’. I see many parallels of these white gays with their heterosexual counter-parts. They are both the same!
Hell, even PETA isn’t above mentally scarring blacks in order to spread their message (along with equating black people to animals).
Peta had a campaign comparing slaves to animals:
It seems they love comparing black people to animals!
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brothawolf
No there haven’t. There isn’t really even any debate among psychometricans that blacks have IQ’s 1.0-1.1 standard deviations lower than whites by young adulthood. The debate is over why.
The debate is how much of this is caused by heritable genetic differences between the races and how much is caused by culture and socioeconomic differences. The left likes to pretend it’s all the later. The evidence strongly suggests its at least fifty fifty genetics. But at least there’s a genuine and not completely phony debate about that, based on somewhat conflicting scientific evidence.
Because the differences in IQ by young adulthood is so firmly established by almost 100 years of IQ tests, many of them done on very large sample sizes, the left has come up with some pretty whacked theories to try to explain away the facts. They try to claim that IQ test don’t measure anything that matters, but all selective universities (which require SATs) and the US military, which administers its own version of an IQ test to all new enrollees greatly differ, though they keep quiet about calling these IQ tests. Tons of work collected by Murray and Godfriedson and others have shown how much IQ matters. They also tried to shown IQ tests were biased against blacks, but when questions some felt objectionable were removed, the results were the same. As well blacks do better on more culturally loaded questions in IQ tests than on more abstract ones.
Then the left came up with the bizarre and fallacious theory that race doesn’t exist as a matter of genetic difference, it’s just a social construct. Well race is somewhat of a social construct but it’s one constructed around observable biological differences. The one drop rule uniquely applied to African Americans is a social construct when it’s applied to blacks who are only 10% of black ancestry. But there aren’t all that many of them. Genes make blacks black or dark brow and whites white. Race is a matter of ancestry and relatedness.
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@ doug
What do psychometricans know of genetics and anthropology?Psychometricans are not even biologists. That’s not their field of expertise. Their scientific division is psychology. So how can they even speculate on things they have no expertise in?
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SomeGuy–
Scientifically true, yes. And why does that crack you up?
The truth can’t be racist. That’s using an absurd definition of the word. Though that is commonly done by blacks, the left and the media these days.
And the scientific truth is that American blacks are on average a lot less intelligent than whites (they have IQ’s 1.0-1.1 lower) by young adulthood.
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“Scientifically true, yes. And why does that crack you up?
The truth can’t be racist. That’s using an absurd definition of the word. Though that is commonly done by blacks, the left and the media these days.”
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The reason I said that is because I believe you are taking information gained by people on the fringe side of science and then presenting it as mainstream. For the most part. Even when some of the information is presented among scientific circles in the mainstream, the information is contested and debated in terms of causation and interpretation of the data. If you want to believe that information is true, fine. That’s your choice. But to present it as mainstream FACT is disingenuous.
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@Doug1,
Wow…
Even now your insisting that blacks have lower IQ due to “science”? Thanks for yet again educating everyone here about who and what they are and how IQ, race, genes, and the one drop rule effects them, even though they would know first hand.
It feels so great to know that all of the black people in the world MUST have lower IQ but do better on “culturally loaded questions”. Even the dumbest white guy who can’t read past a six grade level or graduate from high school is better than black people who have master’s degrees because “tests” show he’s got a “higher IQ”. Sorry Barack Obama, give up. It’s clear that Santorum and Romney have higher IQs due to these wonderfully accurate tests! At least your good at the “culturally loaded questions”.
I mean, it’s lovely to know that the one drop rule only affects blacks with 10% black ancestry. I mean, all of the experiences that say otherwise just don’t count! Because only white people and their “science” can know. Racists have been known to use exact genetic data to be racist, right, they just knew how many had 10% black ancestry right off the bat! Because ALL black people, due to genes, have dark brown skin if they have anything over 10% blackness, and they need white guys who use “science” to educate them on how that stuff affects them.
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I’m not citing psychometricians for being expert on or doing research on how much of the difference in IQ between adult blacks and whites is due to genetic causes. I’m citing them for the fact that such large differences in IQ do exist by young adulthood. They’re expert on designing IQ tests and validating them by comparison to other such tests and in how well they predict school and other real life outcomes.
I cite geneticists for the proposition that race is not just a social construct.
Most work to date, aside from the one genetics study reported on in the Guardian I linked way up near the top of this thread, on determining how much of IQ differences are caused by genetic differences and how much of the inter racial IQ gap is as well have been done by such methods as twin studies and trans racial adoption studies, by psychologists. We know that identical twins have identical genes. When they are adopted and reared apart in different adoptive families much can be learned. Read the reviews of the scientific literature I linked if you want more information.
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Someguy–
Causation is contested yes, but the existence of the 1.0 SD or so IQ gap by young adulthood isn’t contested by those doing scientific work in relevant fields.
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@ doug
I just don’t have a problem with the methodology of obtaining this information, I also have a problem with how this information is interpreted.
Let’s say that IQ tests are relatively accurate, as some mainstream scientists believe. If you actually research how they interpret the data, they would argue against the strong genetic causes based on studies such as this:
http://wupa.wustl.edu/record_archive/1997/11-06-97/7682.html
As a matter of fact, I would say that very few legitimate scientists, place the burden of poor IQ in so-called Blacks in the lap of genetics. Most of the information coming out in the last five years suggests otherwise.
So, in my view, even if the methodology is sound (which I doubt), the interpretation stills favors the view that Intelligence and race of intrinsically connected. As a matter of fact, the research on IQ and race by Arthur Jensen, William Shockley, Herrnstein and Murray (The Bell Curve) and others have not found any significant correlations between race and intelligence. They have found correlations between race and IQ. Big difference.
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Ace–
How twisted. Not “due to science”, instead as measured by scientific methods. IE scientifically constructed IQ tests done on scientifically validly statistical samples.
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I have a science degree. A true scientist (read: competent) questions both the methodology and the interpretation. That’s how it’s done.
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Someguy–
Yeah I’ve seen that before that was a completely bogus and in fact frankly fraudulent “counter factual” to the research that Hernstein and Murray present in the chapter about racial differences in IQ in the Bell Curve. I’m referring to that 17 year old book because he did.
The reason that blacks “close the IQ gap by half during college” isn’t because individual blacks do. It’s because those blacks who graduate are smarter than those who enter college. That’s because a whole lot of the less bright blacks drop out of college. Whether those that graduate are really are only have half the IQ gap of those that enter is also suspect, but that’s possible for the reasons I’ve stated. He’s also citing and unpublished article that I believe never made it past peer review and wasn’t published.
The media and academic left went nuts on a short time delay after the Bell Curve was published and there was a lot of uninformed and dishonest attacking of it and it’s authors.
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@ Doug1,
I wouldn’t call it twisted. Still the same crap different day. Doesn’t make your response any less problematic. And you still aren’t addressing my point on why you see fit to act like this so called “scientific method” somehow invalidates all genuine black experience that proves it inaccurate. You can’t use that stuff to evaluate entire groups of people, and the one drop rule is just one example of why that stuff is so shoddy to use as evidence. Seriously, 10% blackness? Genes make black people dark brown?
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@ doug
I boils down to this. You’re on your team and I’m on mine. You’re fringe and I’m mainstream. Nothing wrong with that. But you aren’t going to be convinced by me and I damn sure aren’t going to be convinced by you. So now what?
I don’t want to speak for other people, but I think you’re wasting your time here. Might be time for you to move on.
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@ Doug
Are you still on this bandwagon? Your life must be severly lacking in vitality.
Doug, since you are so gung-ho on presenting this evidence to us, may I propose one to you? Are all your personalities including the drunken one who types hatred then ‘takes it back’ listening?
All whites are genetically predisposed to deviant sexual behaviour, cannibalism, homosexuality and pedophilia. After all, how would you explain the rash of men who prefer this to a normal relationship with women? I could name ten white men in the last decade that have fallen under one of these abnormalities, up to Jerry Sandusky’s present situation and Anthony Weiner who destroyed HIMSELF due to his fetish.
Let’s not forget that white men make up the biggest demographic for interracial fetish fantasies, then claim they are against interracial marriage.
What is the genetic link to this? The Neanderthals? Or maybe cold weather?
Or how about some missing link in the cerebral cortex? Wait, I know…Pinot Noir.
Explain that.
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@ Truthbetold,
I knew it. Pinot Noir. One drop of pinot noir.
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@ doug
To you, we are leftist nuts. To us, you’re a racist loon. No one is budging and fewer and fewer people are willing to engage you. I mean, this is probably my last post addressing you, since you appear too rigid to actually process any information contrary to what you believe. I feel like I’m wasting my time. I don’t exactly know why you are here, but it seems illogical to stay.
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Someguy–
There’s nothing fringe about saying that by young adulthood blacks have IQ’s 1 standard deviation lower than whites do. By far most psychologists believe that from the abundant scientific evidence.
It is controversial to claim from the evidence that a substantial part of the reason why, but certainly not all, is due to genetic differences. There’s even more evidence that that’s the case between individuals, since that’s a lot less controversial to fund.
The degree to which fairly intelligent blacks on here refuse to admit the truth of the former is remarkable to me. It’s been interesting.
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“The degree to which fairly intelligent blacks on here refuse to admit the truth of the former is remarkable to me. It’s been interesting.”
WOW.
Listen up folks,
Doug is telling us what we secretly believe.
Dougie, do tell.
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LOL@We secretly believe whites to be superior and Blacks to be stupid.
I caught that too truthbetold. Every village needs an idiot I suppose.
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I’d like to make something clear.
If you’re an intelligent black man or woman with an IQ of say 120, the fact that you’re black doesn’t make you any less intelligent than a white or NE Asian with the same IQ. I don’t think that and neither do about any genuine HBD or race realist people who were really those things that I’ve seen.
It’s just that’s there’s fewer blacks as a percentage of their population with that IQ, not that the ones that have it are somehow not really that.
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As a corollary of what I just said, the black white racial IQ gap is of little or no use in evaluating individuals.
It’s use is in making sense of social phenomena, that is group differences.
The strong effort by by far the majority of American social scientists studying anything related to this area, and it’s a large part of what those outside of economics and to a lesser extent political science study, has been to find socioeconomic, cultural or educational reasons that completely explain the gaps, and to find ways of closing them.
That has failed, rather completely.
But current leftist “all are born equal (in abilities) ideology among intellectuals is strong, and very resistant to scientific evidence. The facts are otherwise.
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truthbetold–
You’ve certainly been telling me many times repeatedly what I supposedly secretly believe.
With vastly less accuracy.
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@Doug
Since you like to nitpick certain parts of a comment while leaving out others, I’ll do the same since you basically sound like a broken record.
No there haven’t. There isn’t really even any debate among psychometricans that blacks have IQ’s 1.0-1.1 standard deviations lower than whites by young adulthood. The debate is over why.
And then you said the usual crap and then you said.
Then the left came up with the bizarre and fallacious theory that race doesn’t exist as a matter of genetic difference, it’s just a social construct. Well race is somewhat of a social construct but it’s one constructed around observable biological differences. The one drop rule uniquely applied to African Americans is a social construct when it’s applied to blacks who are only 10% of black ancestry. But there aren’t all that many of them. Genes make blacks black or dark brow and whites white. Race is a matter of ancestry and relatedness.
That’s the whole flippin’ point of what I was saying about how you operate Doug! You said there haven’t been sciences that disagree with you, but you just stated that there is a theory that race doesn’t exist as a matter of genetic difference. So, in a sense, you are saying that it exists in some way, but here’s where you get predictable. You claim it as a leftist plot. So, it’s not plausible anyway.
Seriously, that’s no different than a scenario when an 8-year old boy picks on a girl of the same age. When the girl tells on him, he gets mad at her and disregards what she’s saying because, according to him, “she’s just a stupid girl.”
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@Doug
You’ve certainly been telling me many times repeatedly what I supposedly secretly believe.
With vastly less accuracy.
Is it because we’re black and/or part of the left wing as you would say? (Yes or no)
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@Doug
“The degree to which fairly intelligent blacks on here refuse to admit the truth of the former is remarkable to me. It’s been interesting.”
I see. You’re practically saying that you know more about black people than black people. In other words I, as a black man, don’t know myself very well, but you, a white man, do. Okay. That’s perfectly clear.
SMDH.
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Doug
The reason why I can tell you what you secretly believe is:
1. You are unoriginal.
2. A drunk man’s words are a sober man’s thoughts.
3. You reek of malignant hate. You just THINK you’re hiding it.
4. Based on our experiences, which count a heck of a lot more than science, most whites are predisposed to this kind of garbage.
You, old friend, are not smart.
You are not even learned.
You are a modern day, hate-filled, angry, white man who lost his job to some black guy or had a black woman tell you ” NO” and you’re pissed.
The other day when the wine ” made you do it”, you were more coherent, more honest, more tolerable than you’ve ever been.
Take a page from the ” Black folks just tell it like it is” book and just say what you’ve been dying to say:
” I hate ni****s!”
” Go back to Africa and leave us alone!”
” If it weren’t for you folks, America would be a damn fine country!”
Trust me, Douglas, old chap, you’ll feel sooooooooooooooo much better.
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fact is doug, black people nowadays are more clever that whites, at least in america. It’s out of necessity . Look you can’t always judge how smart someone is just because of a test score. Does that mean I am on their side. no. But I see what I see. I see more white kids staying at home playing video games till their 30 eating up mommy and daddys money that by the way won’t last forever. and I see alot of black kids making strides in the right direction………at least where I live. We need to take a page out of their book and start teaching our kids to do right by people and by themselves.
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@doug:
“Then the left came up with the bizarre and fallacious theory that race doesn’t exist as a matter of genetic difference, it’s just a social construct.”
Ööh… It is, as a matter of scientific fact. Are you saying that scientists aournd the world are left wing nuts??
There is only one biological human race on the planet. I am so sorry that you belong to it, that you are the same as ay black guy around biologically, but that is the way it is. Just like the biological fact that you and a chimpanzee have 1,7% diffenrence in your genes. Which in all practicality makes you, and me too, an ape.
“But current leftist “all are born equal (in abilities) ideology among intellectuals is strong, and very resistant to scientific evidence.”
Ööh… No. It is very strong because the scientific evidece. And also, it is not just “the leftists”, it is practically the whole scientific community, minus some crack pot right wing racist nuts and old men wearing diapers and surrefing early signs of dementia.
“It is controversial to claim from the evidence that a substantial part of the reason why, but certainly not all, is due to genetic differences.”
Yes it is because it is a load of poop, scientifically that is.
“The media and academic left went nuts on a short time delay after the Bell Curve was published and there was a lot of uninformed and dishonest attacking of it and it’s authors.”
Ahaa, it was the mysterious Left again! You mean the communists, right? But when you bring in the jews, you know, the guys who your buddies in Germanried to deal with back in the 40’s?? They must be part of this conspiracy of “uniformed and dishonest attack”.
“I cite geneticists for the proposition that race is not just a social construct.”
Which is hilarious since those genes prove that there is only one human race on the planet. Contrary what you believe.
“The truth can’t be racist. That’s using an absurd definition of the word. Though that is commonly done by blacks, the left and the media these days.”
The turth can not be racist, you’re right on that, because in truth there are no biological human races. But you are a racist, pure and simple, because you believe in the whole ten yards of the racist principles.
And as we see, it is now the leftist-media conspiracy again, plus the blacks, who have jumped on the same band wagon, I assume.
“Race is a matter of ancestry and relatedness.”
You are right about that! It has nothing to do with biology. It is based on your culture, on your family and friends and the surroundings where you grew up, in your case in white America sucking in the racist doctrine from the day you were born, thus creating a racist you are today. And from that too we can clearly see that race and racism are cultural constructions. You bring that out in the open so nicely.
“The debate is how much of this is caused by heritable genetic differences between the races and how much is caused by culture and socioeconomic differences. The left likes to pretend it’s all the later. The evidence strongly suggests its at least fifty fifty genetics.”
Well, actually it is you and your kind who are debating about it. Most scinetist have already moved on since there is no biological evidence but mountains of cultural and sociological evidence.
If the majority of science world is The Left for you, that makes you a fringe lunatic along with your ideological brethren.
And here is the key: ” …the evidence STRONGLY SUGGESTS… “.
It does not prove it. It is not a proof. It SUGGESTS in your mind. Not because it proves it but because you want it to prove but can not say it because it does not, so you must use a wording like SUGGESTS.
I have no idea what has happened to you, what is your psychological proifile, but it must be sad in some way. Every where you look there are those commies ad n*****s conspiring to bring you down, not believing the way you do etc. It must a very sad life indeed.
Perhaps if you would be a bit braver and corageous and would really open your eyes, your fears and insecurities would ease up. That would make you feel a bit better. You could still be a racist but just because you want to. You would not have the need to find “evidence” to back your ideology.
You could just burn crosses and enjoy family pic nics with like minded guys, tell stories and rant and rave about those commies and n*****s, and perhaps those jews too, and just go on being a Good Ole Racist instead of a small scared guy who tries to explain himself and find excuses as to why his racism is okay.
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I find it interesting the utter hypocrisy of some whites. They condemn us for being animalist yet find no remorse for killing, beating, raping, stabbing, lynching and setting numerous blacks on fire, with their white women by their side, as if it’s a party!
Yet, we are the brutal ones.
****sigh****
One day, all of this will be explained to us.
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@bulanik:
I am not quite sure when and how it became necessary for the whites to justufy their behavior around the world by some outer reasoning. Slavery and taking slaves used to be part and parcel of war in the roman days, in the medieval times and even a bit later, but then, I suspect some time at the 1600-1700’s that was no longer valid reasoning.
For some reason at some time some whites felt that they had to come up with another explanation. Simply stating “I atek you as slaves because I can” was disturbing so they had to find another excuse. They came up with fictional human races, very loosely based on cathegorising of all the spieces taking place roughly at the same time. It reached its peak in later halft of the 1800’s when the “race biology” was invented as a “science” by brittish, german and swedish “scientists”.
The swedes placed finns into the same cathegory as mongols, actually they labeled us mongols, so they could explain to themselves why they had enslaved, opressed and terrorised finns for few hundred years (1240-1809) and why they had almost destroyed the Saami people up North. On the same vein they could explain why they belonged to the best race in the world: germanische stock. Their state still has pretty much the same attitude, by the way, and never have done full account of their part in the creation of race biology.
For some reason these old ideas are very much alive in USA. Like I have said many times before, I have no idea why in USA it is usual to ask race/ethnicity in official forms and questionaires other than because of racism. Why it is important to know is your fellow country man black or brown or white? There is no other explanation except racism.
Also the use of the term “caucasian” is very much 1911’s stuff and it is seen as valid in USA in general. I find that very funny and much revealing.
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Bulanik……I see now what the animal activists in the US have been up to… Yes. Not only have they appropriated the visual images of slavery, but the language of it as well!
I’ve still got a draft that’s been sitting since December of 2010 about this very shit after seeing this ad: http://youtu.be/4GyL29JmSPk! I was so enraged everytime I tried to write it – it remains a draft to this day. With each passing day, I’m becoming more and more sick of the, as Matari put it somewhere upthread – “spiritually challenged souls” – of most white folk! As in the photos to which you linked, as well as the video above, these “animal activists” know full well that they’re, yet again, de-humanizing Black folk, with plenty of conviction and absolutely no conscience. And of course, as with slavery, the dollar bill (in this case, begging for donations to their “cause”) still plays a prominent role in the process. (SMMFH)
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white people suck
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@ Bulanik,
Those links disturb me, because yet again Black people are being used for a cause, regardless of how they might feel about it. I don’t understand how it can be so easy for them to dehumanize blacks enough to put the treatment of them as an example of animal cruelty. To so callously use lynching pictures next to pictures of cattle just makes it all the more depressing.
I’m a huge animal rights person, I love animals. I only use free-range products and love my puppies to death. But I would never think it was okay to degrade a group of people.
That’s just the easy way out. Instead of coming up with real material and passionately fighting for the treatment of animals, they’d much rather be lazy, “controversial” and use the tragic situation that black people all over the country had been in for personal gain.
It’s worse than white gay people using segregation to say that “gay is the new black”, while at the same time pretending black people didn’t exist until it was convenient to blame them for everything.
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sam…“Like I have said many times before, I have no idea why in USA it is usual to ask race/ethnicity in official forms and questionaires other than because of racism. Why it is important to know is your fellow country man black or brown or white? There is no other explanation except racism. Also the use of the term “caucasian” is very much 1911’s stuff and it is seen as valid in USA in general.”
I agree. And yes, it is – or should be – very revealing for those who want to see.
ace…“Instead of coming up with real material and passionately fighting for the treatment of animals, they’d much rather be lazy, “controversial” and use the tragic situation that black people all over the country had been in for personal gain.”
Using “real material and passionately fighting” would require that they truly gave a shit – about both Black folk and animals.
” It’s worse than white gay people using segregation to say that “gay is the new black”, while at the same time pretending black people didn’t exist until it was convenient to blame them for everything.”
Yes it is – but that is also offensive IMHO. I lived in Key West, FL (a majority gay city) twice for a total of 7 or so years. What I witnessed there, with white gay people, is that Black gay people were totally not a part of their “group” (unless of course they wanted to bed them). “One Human Family” (the city’s motto) they were, and still are – not.
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Ace…“but God help them if they don’t act like a monolith who all support white headed issues. Then they’re all unredeemable and the cause of all intolerance in the world. The they become more childlike and unworthy of voting privileges and we start seeing stuff like “lower IQs” again.”
Exactly.
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White culture has its many faults, but White people, in general, don’t suck.
Unless of course they are vampires.
Then they suck.
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Abagond, and everyone else with any semblance of respect and common sense here – Please, do accept my apologies for the afore-posted. I respect y’all (even Dave, with whom I’ve disagreed before) – but Doug1 doesn’t deserve, and will never get, any respect from me.
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Deb:
I deleted your post and the one of Doug1’s you were answering.
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I noticed after I wrote it – and understand. I posted the apology in case you did post it because it was the right thing to do.
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Bulanik…I appreciate the historical perspectives you bring to posts in your comments! Thank you…
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so
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Bulanik…“Right now, I’m giving some more thought to the way black men have been castrated in US culture.”
Though I’ve been in the US for 55 years, I know way less than I should have. As for Black men’s castration in US culture, I’m learning a lot more about that as well. I’m hoping it’s not “too much, too little, too late.”
I can’t help you on any scientific front, because I’m neither a scientist, nor an “intellectual” – far from it (given the 1911 Britannica shit, among others, I’m pretty leery about a lot of so-called “science” anyway). I’m a Black human being who’s been subjected to SO much alabaster brainwashing, that it’s taken all these years for me to even try to wade through all the madness.
As for the old “scientific” implications that Black women feel “less pain,” I don’t need science to tell me that. However, I deduce, that it makes insecure white men particularly – feel better and more human, about the pain they’ve inflicted over centuries. I’ve found (in the last few years) that I needed to leave this country to even have a chance of somewhat understanding what’s long been going on.
Nope, I know nothing at all about lupus, but I certainly await your findings.
Again, thanks for your contributions to my own education.
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@bulanik:
The racial physical differences are, as you pointed out there, just another form of racist poop. It is very very strange how deep and tight these myths and fictious claims sit in the (american) white psyche. As we have seen, there seems to be new, rewritten versions of these appearing every now and then, depending the times.
As black athletes have shown that not only they are as good or even better in any sports than the white man, the focus have somewhat changed. Now we read again and again how IQ tests proove that blacks are inferior to the white man intellectually. And that is old blab blab again.
The real shock and horror felt in USA during 1968 olympics was when John Carlos and Tommie Smith raised their black fists in the air during the medal ceremonies for 200 meters and both guys were university students too, if my memory does not fail me. So they were the fastest guys in the USA and the world, but also they were intellectually as good as any white guy!! Double shocker there!
As for the black women, their over sexualisation and objectification continues today as it has been for centuries. Them being more beast like means that they actually ejoy being raped and humiliated, if not because theý do not feel so much pain as the then because of their animalistic self. Thus, the age old racist connotations are still here. Just look at any rap video where those meaty and sweaty black women curve their back like cats in heat, ready for anything a Man wants to do to them. Not only because they can endure any pain inflicted on them, but because their lesser ability feel pain and their beast like soul, black women actually enjoy being raped and treated cruelly! Talk about sickess of racism.
As for the masculinity of the black women, I think there we see the latent homosexuality of some white men. Not being ok with their own sexuality, they project masculinity to the black women and can fantazise about them as sexual objects without being getting caught. By claiming that black women are more menlike and then in secret fantazoes raping them, these white guys are playing their own secret homosexual fantazies out.
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@ Sam
That theory reminds me of the one by Dr. Tobias Hubinette who linked latent white male homosexuality with pedophilia. With the purpose of explaining how white men are quick to stereotype Asian women with having “boy-like figures” on one hand, and why they are still so attracted towards them on the other hand.
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@franklin:
Yes, there are several theories about that too. Funny thing is that when ever White Pride advocates brag with the geniouses of ancient Greece they usually forget that homosexuality was very common there and many of the world famous philosphers and scientists were homosexual pedrasts, boy lovers. Also it is conviniently forgotten that those husky spartans were quite openly homosexuals, the real love being between two warriors and wives for producing new warriors for the state.
@bulanik:
Yes, they really paid for that demonstartion but they also knew the risk they were taking, which makes it even more heroic. My old man was sports journalist in the Mexico games and told many times about this. For him it was one of high lights of the games and he told me that many americans (whites) were actually crying openly there because they felt betrayed and shamed by these two guys.
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@ Sam & Bulanik,
Thanks for posting those videos. Strong black men and women should be celebrated. The hatred towards John Carlos and Tommie Smith is disgusting. Carlos and Smith should be proud to be Black FIRST . Should they praise America for TRYING to tie their hands and shut their mouths??
The fist should be raised and continue to be raised. As long as it evokes white fear and disgust it can be inferred what type of society we live in.
If you ever watch Serena play tennis you know that the audience is still one that attempts to tear down strong Blacks. The commentators too. If Serena is playing a Russian, they (the American commentators + American audience) will largely support the Russian.
The nice part is: Serena doesn’t give a $h^t. She doesn’t apologize for other’s stupidity. And i love seeing her fist pump and the irritation it causes white people. Including my mom who finds any reason not to like the Williams sisters. It’s not hard to see through the transparency of her excuses though like, “She doesn’t show reverance for the traditions of Wimbledon through her colorful clothing or short skirts,” or saying things about how she is like an “Amazon” or should be playing in the men’s league.
Like honestly shut your mouth mom. Not even joking.
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Maybe this is OT but i would mention that I sat in the audience of a tennis match between Venus ( I haven’t seen Serena play live yet) and this unknown and unranked Russian like two years ago. I didn’t find it surprising but I did find it absolutely appalling that the audience would cheer on this unknown over Venus. If that were Monica Seles or some other American champion, we know dayum well that that audience would have supported them.
I was beyond p.o-ed when Venus was upset after kicking this woman’s butt for nearly the whole match. Venus started to make a ton of unforced errors which was the complete ticket for this unknown Russian to come back. The audience cheered the unforced errors as if they were somehow reflective of the quality of the Russian’s play and not Venus becoming unfocused or disinterested.
Reminded me how far we have to go when you have a bunch of white people cheering Venus Williams double faulting or hitting balls out. Long way to go.
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Bulanik
Are you familiar with Dr. Frances Cress Welsing’s theories regarding the underlying reasons why whites are (consciously or subconsciously) obsessed with black penises as it relates to their mutated genetic survival?
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@ Bulanik
Two people I believe you should find of interest researching given your comments here are Dr Jewel Pookrum and Professor Marimba Ani. Both African-American women I’ve come across with profound insights into many of the subjects you touch on.
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@ Bulanik
You’re welcome!
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So they researched blacks like they were animals. Not surprising considering blacks were brought over here from Africa to be used as livestock.
I wish I could say this 1911 Britannica stuff was totally archaic, but many, if not most, whites still believe a watered-down version of this kind of thing. They believe that blacks are some kind of missing link, that in the million years since humanity originated in Africa, that the whites evolved and the blacks did not. They believe that America is fair, an inherently good nation with just a few “speed-bumps” on the historical road to the current state of “equality of opportunity”.
The whites to whom these latent beliefs have been passed down in increasingly less coherent form, so most will not be willing to express this kind of belief. They will hide behind a mask of politically-correct innocence and niavete (and probably most of them are only vaguely aware that they are still racists), but you hear it in their private conversations and the cluelessly offensive remarks that sometimes slip out.
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Concerning the illustration.
I have bought the book coming with the Dutch TV-series De Slavernij, and it is funny to see how the originals by Camper date back from 1791, at least. Mind you, something is wrong either with Wikipedia or the book, I guess the book confused a 5 for a 6, but taking into account that Camper already in the 1760’s, ended an oration about the origin of the color of Blacks with: “You shall no longer no longer have problems to give with me the hand of brotherhood to Negroes and Blacks and to recognize the same as true descendants of the first man, who we all recognize as our ancestors.”
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I CAN’T BELIEVE THAT I MISSED THIS!!! OH GOD WHY!!!!!
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Reblogged this on innerstanding isness.
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Everyone keeps talking about “White views”, but let’s say Europeans did not teach Blacks their language, how would you know what they are saying. The Asians and Arabs are even more racist, but you don’t speaks their language, so you have no proof.
Try getting a job from an Asian or Arab…you’ll see…
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Try to understand. There is one race, Human.
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Reblogged this on murderbymedia and commented:
More facts about our cousins…
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[…] 1 2 3 4 5 […]
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[…] https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/02/28/black-people-according-to-the-1911-britannica/ […]
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[…] 1 2 3 4 5 […]
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@ gt1085
I have deleted some of your comments for using moderated language and for talking about people as if they are non-human:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/comment-policy/
If you want to argue that, say, White people are not truly human, then argue that. But do not casually imply that they are animals. That is a troll move.
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White supremacist believe this garbage.
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Have facts changed in the last 100 years? Everything here is true people have just become more tolerant and feel guilty about the way some blacks were treated 200 years ago.
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[…] to believe in the appropriateness of the British colonial way, with white supremacy reinforced by education. I wonder who amongst the “woke” of recent times will not feel the moral judgement of future […]
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Count the gene’s and chromosomes in blacks, you’ll see blacks have 2 of each. Biologically a black person making a baby with a white woman, the child will be brown. Two whites make a white. But a black and white makes a darker person!! So blacks gene’s are superior.. # 71 year old scholar..Me…
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“Europeans are by no means the pioneers of human civilization. Half of mans recorded history had passed before anyone in Europe could read or write. The priests of Egypt began to keep written records between 4000 and 3000 B.C., but more than two thousand years later the poems of Homer were still being circulated in the Greek city-states by word of mouth. Shortly after 3000 B.C., while the Pharaohs were building the first pyramids, EUROPEANS were creating nothing more distinguished than HUGE GARBAGE HEAPS.”
A History Of The Modern World p. 13
R.R. Palmer (Prof. Yale University)
and Joel Colton (Prof. at Duke University)
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