In December 2011 Jackie, a Dutch fashion magazine, called Rihanna “the ultimate niggabitch”:
She has street cred, she has a ghetto ass and she has a golden throat. Rihanna, the good girl gone bad, is the ultimate niggabitch and displays that gladly, and for her that means: what’s on can come off. If that means she’ll be on stage half naked, then so be it. But Dutch winters aren’t like Jamaican ones, so pick a clothing style in which your daughter can resist minus ten. No to the big sunglasses and the pornheels, and yes to the tiger print, pink shizzle and everything that glitters. Now let’s hope she won’t beat anybody up at daycare.
Rihanna said this to Eva Hoeke, the editor of Jackie:
@evajackie I hope u can read english, because your magazine is a poor representation of the evolution of human rights! I find you disrespectful, and rather desperate!! You ran out of legit, civilized information to print! There are 1000′s of Dutch girls who would love to be recognized for their contributions to your country, you could have given them an article. Instead, u paid to print one degrading an entire race! That’s your contribution to this world! To encourage segregation, to mislead the future leaders to act in the past! You put two words together, with the intent of abasement, that made no sense…”N***A B***H”?!….Well with all respect, on behalf of my race, here are my two words for you…F**K YOU!!!
Hoeke said it was a “joke” with “absolutely no racist motive”. She says:
From the bottom of my heart I say it again: we never intended to offend anyone. And I mean that.
She steps down as editor.
Enter the publisher, Yves Gijrath:
[T]here is nothing wrong in the magazine. [Hoeke] presented it as a joke, but it most certainly was not a joke. It was an interpretation [of a fashion style]. […] She should have said: “we did not realize this interpretation is such a touchy subject. We never meant any harm and offer our sincere and upright apologies.” But because of all the fuss, Eva started to wiggle in all directions, and therefore we have come to the conclusion her credibility has been undermined.
He says the magazine will not print a retraction: “We will not be silenced.” Nor are they racist:
People are totally off limits when calling both the magazine Jackie and Eva Hoeke racist. Jackie is even produced by an editorial staff that is of mixed origins.
Arguably the Dutch might not understand how bad the n-word is, particularly when Rihanna herself has used it, but the disrespect is not limited to just that:
- The use of “ghetto ass”, also racist.
- Rihanna as Jamaican – no need to get her country right.
- Rihanna as beating up people – she who was badly beaten by her boyfriend.
- Refusing to apologize and make things right – what black people think and feel does not matter.
Thanks to commenter Doom Generation for suggesting this topic.
See also:
- Dr Laura and the n-word
- John McWhorter and the n-word
- Vogue does blackface
- apologizing while white
- Are most white people benevolently clueless? – the way Gijrath acted shows you that he is not clueless
- Bamboozled
Oh wow! epic amounts of fail and that bullshit apology!!!!!This is a prime example of how to degarade a black woman in 5 easy steps. SMH…
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I agree. Disgusting article. It wasn’t even just the use of the n-word like you said. What really pissed me off were some of the comments made on articles about the whole matter where some people were saying that blacks were using the race-card over this whole matter. I mean really?! It’s such a sad state of affairs when you realise how moronic some people really are. I’m glad she resigned and I liked Rihanna’s response.
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SMH…
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I like Rihanna’s reponse.
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Thank you for this post. Recently, I had posted my comment regarding Rihanna being called the ultimate n-word b*tch on the Dr. Laura and the n-word thread. Here it is once again.
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That Dutch magazine obviously didn’t do their research. Rihanna’s Barbadian/Bajan, correct?
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I love how Rihanna stood up for herself, more power to her. It wont no damn joke when they did this, they were serious. And even if it was why didn’t they admit they were joking and apologize in the article before putting it in the magazine?
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Rihanna’s response is quite predictable and this should serve as a real lesson to white liberals.
Unfortunately, there are no principle reasons to condemn this label for Rihanna outside of saying “white person can’t call me ____ because of historical events.”
What does a liberal care about “history?” What does a white liberal care about someone else minimizing their autonomy by playing the “race card?” Black liberationists like Rihanna think that white liberals aren’t really sincere in their liberalism?
The radical Dutch liberals saw absolutely nothing wrong with labeling Rihanna something more specific than black liberationist. But they’re really saying the same thing. Oops!!!
Rihanna is actually selling out her “principles.”
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Yeah….Eva Hoeke, is quite a beautiful white woman, so i don’t blame her, for calling a sista a n*gga b*itch. And as for that man Yves Gijrath, he’s cute, is he married or something like that?? I’ve always wanted a white man, he’s the type that would not apologize for any mistake, he seems like my type of a guy!!!
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Despite the cultural differences, the narrative is still the same:
“We never intended to offend anyone. ”
Translation: Our intentions were good. We didn’t mean any harm.
***
“She should have said: ‘We did not realize this interpretation is such a touchy subject.'”
Translation: Yes, she should have chosen her words more carefully, but some people are way too sensitive.
***
‘It was an interpretation [of a fashion style].’
Translation: We were just being creative. No racism on our end.
***
“Jackie is even produced by an editorial staff that is of mixed origins.’
Translation: Some of our best friends are black.
***
“We will not be silenced.”
Translation: We didn’t do anything wrong.
***
“But because of all the fuss, Eva started to wiggle in all directions…her credibility has been undermined.”
Translation: All the fuss has ruined this poor woman’s credibility which caused her to lose her position.
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Nom de plume,
Apparently you aren’t aware that there are some white liberals that are more extreme than you. Where you see white “racism,” I see total liberal autonomy.
What is your principle fuss EXACTLY?
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@Thordaddy,
Dude, what is it with you and liberals?
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So are they really that racist, that racially insensitive,or that clueless? Or, a mix of all three? I just cannot wrap my mind around this. The ‘ultimate
n—-er..b–ch’! wow! And this was supposed to be a joke/street cred cool compliment? I can’t…
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Brothawolf,
I know white people and you can’t make fundamental distinctions.
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@thordaddy:
Apparently you aren’t aware that there are some white liberals that are more extreme than you. Where you see white “racism,” I see total liberal autonomy.
——
I don’t get the “white liberal” psychobabble. You must not be from around these parts…
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Nom de plume laments,
“I don’t get the “white liberal” psychobabble…”
Lol… What’s more radically autonomous than not even knowing yourself?
oyan asks,
“So are they really that racist, that racially insensitive,or that clueless?”
No!!! They are that radically autonomous. The idea that they must pay deference to another radical liberationist is ludicrous. It totally undermines the pact between variant liberationists to embrace an all-accepting indiscriminancy in act and thought amongst each other.
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Although the Dutch magazine is totally out of line, I can understand how these kind of comments get made. People outside the US, and particularly outside the English-speaking world, don’t always understand the context of English words that they use, particularly slang. I have a (white) nephew from the Netherlands who I had to tell off because he frequently used the n-word as if he was some black American guy. He’d just picked it up from hip-hop and movies.
I really think the magazine should have known better – the Dutch have a significant black population of their own and are fairly in tune with the English speaking world. And it’s highly possible that they were just trying to be “edgy”, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they thought it was just a cool way to express something and not particularly offensive.
I do think that things like this are a consequences of the popularisation of the n-word through hip-hop culture. A lot of people just don’t get the concept of something being racist when one person says it and acceptable when a different person says it. I think this has to be borne in mind as it sometimes does get used in ways that are not knowingly racist.
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@Thordaddy
Okay. However, white liberalism in regards to race is none the less as condemning as white conservatism.
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@ Brothawolf
“Dude, what is it with you and liberals?”
“I know white people and you can’t make fundamental distinctions.”
White Code Speech
Liberal = bad white person
Democrat = bad white person
Republican = good white person
Conservative = good white person
Conservative = those who want “THEIR” country back. Believes in reverse-racism… Blacks should leave America if they don’t like it here.
Liberal = those who profess to want social change. Colorblindness..
Radical Liberal = those who want change (the end of racism) NOW!
John Brown – Abolitionist
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So wait; the style of clothing itself is “niggabitch”?
And its aimed at children?
Maybe the dutch are just that disconnected from american culture but I can’t see how Rhianna is “ghetto”.
Also I don’t think they are saying that Rhianna would beat anybody up but that their children when dressed like Rhianna or I suppose “niggabitches” would.
Which may make it a greater example of racism, they “may” have not actually been trying to be offensive (not sure I would be that generous….), but their racism was so innate and unthinking it didn’t even accur to them how offensive or deragatory this kind of joking really is.
I mean thats at best here; their intent wasn’t “meant” to be offensive, aside from that you still have unintentionally implying that black women/people are slutty and prone to violence and that even dressing your children like that could infect them with a “black” culture of violence and promiscuity.
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The stinkiest white fail there to me is the focus on intentions instead of effects.
“I didn’t MEAN to be racist when I did that racist thing, so there! I’m a good person, not a bad one. End of discussion.”
SMDH.
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I heard they also tried to make some excuse that `n****rbitch’ was in reference to an American fashion that is very popular over in the US… Right.
To be honest, I am not at all surprised. With the tradition they have there of Zwarte Piet (which you can read about on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet ), blackface is condoned. As most of you probably know, the more these sorts of things are `allowed’ against racialised people, the less respect is given to racialised people and the more desensitised White people get towards racism. If people can easily walk into a store and find a ready-made blackface kit and dress up as a mockery of a Black person, what does that teach people?
It is my belief that these sort of things lead to even more racism, such as these gems:
A song poking fun at Chinese people. Complete with Dutch people in yellowface with pointy hats. Rough translation of some of the lyrics: A Chinese only sees half our world because their eyes are almost completely closed. We don’t want to be judgemental, but it’s a funny sight. A Chinese can’t see up and down because they see everything through a slit.
A song that was apparently on a children’s show: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUZiQKmPtzc
The lyrics speak of grabbing a club tightly (or some other weapon) and beating Turks into the ground.
Then there is `Ushi’: a White woman who dresses up as a racist caricature of a Japanese person, complete with black wig, coke bottle glasses and a stupid accent. All that’s missing are yellow paint on her face and buck teeth. She interviews celebrities and tries to embarrass them. Then later reveals she is a White Dutch woman (I would be surprised if people were surprised at all). She has a real Japanese person accompany her and pretends to speak to him while he speaks real Japanese and used to say `Ching chong, ching chong.’ Now she is better at imitating Japanese, but it is still complete nonsense. In English, she puts on a stupid accent and purposefully mixes up her l’s and r’s, pretends to have terrible English and makes odd mistakes. The show is still on TV today.
(Interview is in English.)
When a culture tells you it is okay to disrespect racialised people and poke fun at how they speak, how they look… that can lead to people thinking it is all right to do even more, to go beyond looking down on them and to hate them for not being White.
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I’ve never understood why whites are so hell bent on using the n-word anyways. Does the word have some sort of special power? Do they just want to be insulting to Black people’s faces and not get called on it? Do they think using the word will make them look cool and not like a jerk? And why is it that they whine about using this word as opposed to other equally offensive terms for other ethnic groups?
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@ proudchocolategirl
Cosign to the tenth power. Since when does BET and rappers represent all Black people?! I didn’t realize that we were a monolithic people. I guess there’s no such thing as Blacks being individuals with varying vocabulary ranges. No, no such thing. SMDH
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@Iris I completely agree with you. I posted a similar comment on a youtube video about this incident. Well Black Dutch woman read it and was pissed at me saying that Zwarte Piet isn’t and that Hoeke isn’t a reflection of Dutch people. But I stand by what I said we are all a product of our environment and Hoeke is the product of a society that condones racism
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I agree with Proud: Only rarely do I hear black people in real life use the n-word. It is almost always white people who use it. The same is true on this blog. On television and radio, on the other hand, it is the complete opposite. Which makes me deeply suspicious since:
1. Most of those black rappers and comedians got to where they are by appealing to whites.
2. America has a long history of whites being entertained by black degradation.
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Dude, what is it with you and liberals?
Everyone needs a hobby. Thordaddy’s is composing diatribes against ‘liberals’. If he doesn’t agree with something it is ‘liberal’ and the person in question a ‘liberationists’. He gives buffoonery a bad name.
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And what’s really annoying as hell is that somehow the whites, well, the ones I had a discussion with, ALWAYS try to make it about them. They gripe how one-sided it is for black people to complain about the n-word when they claim racial slurs for whites are just as bad.
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@ Erica
Thank you for speaking up. I’m glad to know I am not the only one who sees it for what it is. Maybe there are people who are more or less influenced by it, but I do think that the environment there is ideal for the breeding of ignorance and racism.
—–
As for people wanting to be able to say `n****r’, I don’t understand why there is such an interest in being able to use such a nasty, hateful word. People do not have the right to appropriate the term when they are not the individuals who are targeted by its negativity. They do not get to say how it is used or by whom it is said. It’s the person who is or has been attacked by that word who should be the one to decide.
P.S. Does anyone know why one of my three youtube links did not turn into an embedded video above?
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The groupthink and denial of natures applied to this event is nearly inexplicable. The reduction of all phenomena that offends the senses of blacks or PoC to “racism” is the clearest evidence of this denialist groupthink.
The label given to Rihanna is a label well earned. Rihanna has sold radical sexuality and suspect behavior to millions of young black girls and black boys. The damage she has done absolutely dwarfs whatever sense of wrong she can cobble up from this TRUTHFUL LABEL.
If the MESSENGER was Missy Elliot or this was written in XXX, there would be no controversy.
There is ONLY controversy because the “offended” BELIEVE that whites are inherently racist.
But many whites are radically liberal.
And it’s hilarious to talk of America and then act as though one knows nothing of radical liberalism and its highest values: nondiscrimination, tolerance and equality.
This act is ACTUALLY evidence of radical autonomy, i.e., the application of nondiscrimination and tolerance to all acts and thoughts.
There seems to be an ignorance within some blacks and PoC about the nature of the radical white liberal and his liberal desire to take his liberal values to their logical extreme.
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There is new evidence that Hoeke (The Dutch “oe”, is usually pronounced like the English “oo”), is indeed completely colorblind, in an interview with Lange Frans, a hip hop / rap artist, she described herself as a former “nigga bitch” out of the blue, after LF informed her that the long dead rapper whose music should be used on his funeral should not be Tupac. LF choked upon hearing this ashtonishing news.
http://www.ilovefashionnews.nl/2011/12/23/new-quote-eva-hoeke-was-zelf-een-niggabitch/
Description of a NB: Wore a Karl Kani coat and had a nose piercing with a weed leaf. (Not any sort of weed,that weed, you know).
@Iris”A song that was apparently on a children’s show: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUZiQKmPtzc
The lyrics speak of grabbing a club tightly (or some other weapon) and beating Turks into the ground.”
But clearly Belgian, and a PARODY of a harmless children’s show song, to know this one:
So not of any relevance to this Jackie vs. Rihanna issue at all.
Zwarte Piet is by itself a big and COMPLICATED issue, and linking it to Jackie vs. Rihanna, is likely to generate in the Dutch context undeserved support for the magazine. I would love to discuss ZP with anybody, but not linked to a serious topic like this,
On the other hand, compared to say “kankerhoer” (Cancer prostitute) and “klerelijer” (Cholera patient), two very common expressions in Dutch strong languague, the NB expression sounds indeed rather like a term of endearment, unless we do remember the use of hounds to hunt down self-freed negroes, of course. Dutch is somewhat of a rougher language, and political correctness is widely despised as dishonesty, but there is a difference between being politically incorrect, and actually insulting people. At least Rihanna is doing the decent thing now and has sent her lawyer to the Jackie, I mean getting associated with a style of child’s clothing with that name…
@Eurasian sensation: People may be “”black” and live in the Netherlands, that does not mean that they would all be informed about sensitivities about the use of English words in Dutch texts. Suppose, some mainly francophone West African fashionista had been checking it, there is a good chance she would have missed it as well. There is hardly to no black community, there are some different black communities… Some black people, though not really amused, seem to take the side of the Jackie, or at least the side of the self-proclaimed former NB.
@Oyan, I’d say colorblind, racially insensitive and clueless, mostly. And used to somewhat higher level of offensiveness as completely acceptable. I see this as the effect of the overexposure of some cultural products of a basically somewhat racist society, on one which is basically rather colorblind (still wrestling with its religion based segregationist past).
@Nhandiboo, I guess that they did not see that what to them was just a “cool” alternative to “sexy hip-hop girl” was insulting to them. This is what they suggested as a style to dress children!
Personally, I guess the obsession with the N-word, could be explained by the racism in the acceptance of its use. Person A is adressed with the N-word by person B, now it depends on the perceived race of person B, whether this is a (racist) insult or not? In the Netherlands this dependence on race is clearly both unconstitutional and racist, and in most of the world racist, unjust and confusing, especially for children of mixed couples.
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@Bulanik:
Spot on! Especially the part regarding Madonna. Time and time again, she has deliberately courted controversy through sexuality and religious imagery to stay in the limelight. I don’t ever recall Madonna being called the b-word for her artistic expression.
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“But that doesn’t mean the damage doesn’t get done anyway. For instance, what is this so-called street cred ?
Apparently it means black women being loud and uncouth, fighting in the street?”
Speaking from a New York perspective, it’s not just in the street. It’s in McDonald’s, in schools, on subways, buses, Walmarts … there’s a discernible shift in “some” young(er) black women increasingly negative behavior patterns from that of the 50s – 80s.
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Ok where’s Sam, I thought it was only American whites who need a foot up their buts, so If you can divorce yourselves from our sins WHICH WE ALL HAVE- BLACK PEOPLE, I’ll most conveniently divorce myself from this sin, because after all she isn’t american. right Sam?
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I do not agree that Gijrath, the publisher, is a clueless innocent. He is certainly not acting like one.
If I were in Mexico and used some Spanish word I picked off the radio that I thought was harmless but then my friend gets upset when I use it on him, I would do what? I would be embarrassed, beg forgiveness and say I had no idea. I would not, like Gijrath, tell my friend I am not going to take it back, that he is just being touchy and then tell him that I am not racist. That, in fact, is just what a racist jerk in the States would do.
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Iris said:
Bulanik said:
I agree 100%.
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Okay, this is going to be my 100 cents of a €…
I think the title was intentionally provocative. As far as I know Holland/Netherlands have a significant population of black immigrants and it is one of the most tolerant societies in the WORLD, which does not mean or imply that there would be no controversy…( Been there twice myself, but just on business…)
I felt that the article was more aimed at the music industry, and its implications, in GENERAL, rather than just against Rihanna. I like her, but I have to admit that the more popular she gets, the LESS BLACK she gets, but at the same time using the trendy vocabulary and visual imagery of idolized ‘blackness/coolness’.
That she is just exploiting the vocal landscape of what is deemed acceptable by the current media. She is in control, but she is also a slave to (not to the rhythm like Grace Jones, hehe) but to the merciless merchandising and marketing behemoth.
It dawned on me when I was playing some Prince on you tube, and saw an advert of her latest video where she looked more like a WHITE woman of unspecific european origins…
That the magazine is more criticizing of the example she gives to young women and girls, that shaking your ass and being a submissive and/or dominant sex object is the way to advance in society and life. It is not just her, she is just following the strong undercurrent of objectifying women and glorifying good looks and sexual prowess. Tapping to the most basic of instincts, not empowering women/girls to appreciate themselves as thinking, feeling human beings with the abilities and capabilities equal and similar to men.
By the by, sorry to say, but Madonna was never that challenging to the public eye or opinion, because she is too smart and too much of a sucker of acceptance and record sales to really speak her mind and risking of alienating buying audience. I mean her “Sex” book was just a PR stunt, not really taking a chance and risking her career. She has tested her boundaries and knows very well not to REALLY cross them, just giving the impression that she DOES. Slight of hand.
Unfortunately very few popular recording artists are willing and able to be truly controversial. There are indeed MANY worthwhile subjects to criticize and racism certainly is one of them.
I would urge every artist on this planet to tackle and wrestle the most vulnerable points of injustice, but I’m afraid that won’t happen among the most popular ones. After all, it is more important for them to have their Lamborghinis, pools and refrigerators full of Cristal.
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“Articles” such as these are basically modern-day “Inventions of the Savage” – this link from the BBC explains it quite well:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16295827
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Hannu said:
“It dawned on me when I was playing some Prince on you tube, and saw an advert of her latest video where she looked more like a WHITE woman of unspecific european origins…”
Agreed. Beyonce does this too. Li’l Kim has followed in Michael Jackson’s footsteps, as far as utilizing plastic surgery to achieve a more ‘European’ facade. It’s insane.
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Why does it seem like so many white people have this fascination with using the ‘N’ word? Is it really that hard to simply not use it, especially when you know you may offend some by doing so?
I also hate it when people use the “black people do it, so I can too” argument. Some ppl on this site may disagree, but I believe that statement implies ALL. It collectivizes black people, as if blacks who don’t use the ‘N’ word and have a problem w/ ANYone using the word don’t exist.
Idk what to think about the article though. It sounds really offensive, but there is a possibility that the editor simply didn’t understand the word’s implications considering she is of a non-American culture.
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Rihanna was also recently denied access into a hotel in Europe on account of being a “Black” woman:
http://www.examiner.com/urban-pop-in-national/rihanna-verbally-assaulted-after-lisbon-loud-tour-concert
But, her abuses are those of an African woman, and they are so commonplace, that I am not personally surprised.
Truly, she’s a woman, like those typing above, who chose to sing and dance, and now interacts with a European world which, as per its ancient ambition, will attack, physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally,and so forth, African individuals the world over.
Of course, if out of tradition, Europeans attack Africans daily, that’s a problem. But, what I see as the larger problem, is that the African regularly dismisses this European tradition. A weak little European insults an African woman, then Europeans unite under the insult, and African individuals . . . well I will save my words.
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I don’t use the n-word. I’ve also told my 11- year old son and his friends not to use it. It is not polite and it is considered to be a derigatory term in Finland as well and shall not tolerate it from my offspring.
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I’ll allow Hannu Lipponen’s comment on Rihanna’s latest video looking like that of a European woman’s.
Within four days, it has four million views. I can admit that two days ago, I saw young African women with large blond and orange hair. O Rihanna. :-\
Funny, the youtube comments reflect on how good ‘red hair’ was for her. 😐
Either way, I would like Hannu Lipponen to understand that the n-word simply means “African person.” It should not be used as a word for critique.
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I do agree however that the title was ill-chosen, but probably so to provoke. They did not follow with a proper discussion about it. It really does make them look prejudiced.
Just to be clear, I do not defend nor condone the usage of n-word or the apparent racism of European peoples against Africans or their descentants. Or prejudice against people of ANY other ethnicity.
What I was hoping, but admitingly not feeling like I got a clear message of the magazine criticizing the current music industry and its ways of marketing. Not that I read all the replies of the writer or the editorial staff, it is a bit of a thich bog to wade through.
I do appreciate any and all comments directed at me or upon the subject at hand. Thank you.
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Erm, Nigga/Nigger is a derogatory, demeaning term used to insult black people.
@ Onitaset, No, Nigga or Nigger does not mean African person, sorry.
Do you see magazines with articles with the headline Honkey bitch? No, you don’t. Well, I have never seen one, but anyway.
@ Onitaset, using your own logic, H-word would then simply mean “European person”.
Do you see how ridiculous they both sound? I hope so.
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@Onitaset
Either way, I would like Hannu Lipponen to understand that the n-word simply means “African person.” It should not be used as a word for critique.
That may be the origins of the word however, you cant deny the fact that it has been bastardised over the years to mean something insulting and derogatory can you? Furthermore, the article itself is extremely negative and depicts her as a charicature, with no regard as to whether their ‘facts’ are correct or not. In this instance I am not surprised that offence was taken.
Context clearly has much to do with how words are used and their meanings are interpreted but, in the same way that B*tch is a term used for a female dog whilst some people treat their pets like a member of the family, the implication is still clear – it is an insult when used on a human being.
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The problem with N-word is that it is both offensive and ‘cool’ at the same time. People, especially young ones like my son (in a very distant nordic country in a small town) who likes all kinds of music, might feel confused about the usage and the original meaning of the word.
I do educate him of the origins, but just think who is more influential and powerful, me or the music industry?
I do stress him to treat people as individuals, and that we all share 99,999999 percent of genes, and that our differences are due to very complex interactions of different ruling empires and their dominating effects…but still…
What do you think he thinks when he sees half naked, pretty brown girls shaking their ASSets and being called as hoes and bitches and men as n****s?
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Sepultura13;
The link you provided is so disturbing.
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I am not surprised how “Happiness” does not self-censor the word like the rest of us; then proceeds to ‘lecture’ me.
Happiness, your distinction of the n-word as a demeaning term for African people, neglects to recollect that those whom would use the word, hardly hold any esteem for African people.
Malcolm X said it best: “What’s a Black person with a PhD? A [N-word.]”
As to whether it means all African people, it’s a variant of “Negro” which stands for all African people in America.
As to your will of changing “Honkey” to “European people” you need to consider the group which uses the word. For instance, “Yankee” applies to all people resident of the Northern states of the United States, and to say such doesn’t seem ridiculous.
Just as “Black” befits all pure African people in the U.S. and that’s not ridiculous, I am sure.
Frankly, it’s ‘ridiculous’ that you would find ‘symbols’ as ‘ridiculous.’ I am quite finished with addressing you. It seems ‘ridiculous.’
Demerara, the word was always derogatory. A learned student of etymology would tell you that even the word “Black” was initially derogatory.
What I wrote was that the designation for a race should not be used as a critical word, as Hannu Lipponen seemed to be defending.
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@Proud, this text was written and published in Dutch, such bad fake street slang Dutch that you would cross the street to the side with that nice gentleman with that Crips shirt, that bad, but Dutch.
To Hoeke (feel free to pronounce it as “hooka”) it clearly represents a style of dressing and body piercings, so why should she look into an Englisgh dictionary? Are you taking a dutch dictionary if you want to use cookie?
Granted, the use of cursive script rather harms this defense, but still I do think that the people who judge this should be fashion conscious, familiar with the mag, fluent in Dutch and by preference of a color reminding of mother Africa.
So I present you the opinion of Humberto Tan, best dressed Dutchman of 1999, Master of Law, TV-presentator, news reader, sports commentator and designer of his own clothing line, glasses and shoes included. As for his color or race, I’d say google him yourself, but be assured that it ís NOT white.
His opinion is (somewhat paraphrased) that, if it is a joke, it is a bad joke, tasteless, over the line and dumb. In a more genuine hiphop setting it would be irritating him, but there it would be acceptable/tolerable, but the thing in the Jackie suggest a white woman who had some glasses of wine and a “bright” idea.He did not have to spell out that the Jackie thing is thus to him unacceptable. As many Dutch people seem to value his civilized, well worded choices in commenting on sports and in clothing, I guess we can trust him in this. His opinion about the chief editor quitting is in his opinion overdone, yes, she has made a mistake.
We cannot exclude the possibility that this all is (to a degree) just some PR-stunt, I mean, since when is Rihanna reading Dutch fashion magazines? Sure, one of her contacts can have informed her, but her comments seem to indicate she is pretty uninformed about the kind of mag involved, let alone the nature of the article.
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What seriously? Is there any question at all that nigger is an insult?
That was and “IS” still used to degrade black people?
It doesn’t just stand for all black people; its doesn’t just mean “black people” it means “black people are inferior”. I mean thats pretty much its literal defination when regards its usage.
At first I thought Oniset was just some hardcore black power type of person inregards to her or his statements on black women and white men marrying but now Oniset is saying its alright for white people to call black people niggers.
Oniset you have got to be trolling.
Also; maybe there’s more to the article than whats been posted up here but it doesn’t seem like its critizing anything or making a statement beyond, hey dress your kids up like black women its fun but be careful you know how slutty and violent they tend to get……
And while you may make legitimate points about Rhianna profitting off of those stereotypes, its still not something that article seems to be dealing with or making a statement about at all.
It just seems like your randomly defending white racism and your usually better than that in the posts of yours I’ve seen on this blog.
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I should clarify when I get past the Oniset you have got to be trolling sentence I’m talking about Hannu’s statements.
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@ Teddy:
As far as you can tell, what is the common white Dutch understanding of the n-word?
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My, this internet commentary business confuses.
There are egos, there are misunderstandings, there are anger-issues and there is poor grammar.
“I should clarify when I get past the Oniset you have got to be trolling sentence I’m talking about Hannu’s statements.”
What does this mean? Then there’s the fact that people edit their posts after publishing them. Geez.
As to whether it’s alright to call African people the n-word. I never wrote that. I wrote that the n-word should not be a word used to critique people, as “Hannu,” and others, had encouraged.
Though I would prefer to ignore it (Bulanik’s comment), I should write that someone stopping their reading at ‘pure’ doesn’t bare any interest to me. The word ‘pure’ was written particularly because, in the specificity of the debate, someone one-sixty-fourth “Black” may be contestably “Black.” For instance, Southern Europe once had a large African population (for four hundred years even), but few, even in America, consider Southern Europe “Black.”
Bulanik has this senseless and angry ego. It’s very unbecoming. Perhaps she shall lend me the ability to be intelligent someday? And merely ask why I would, in speaking of symbols, and their precision, use the word ‘pure’ rather than voicing a dismissal that more reflects on her ignorance than my own.
Imagine! I do not like to talk down to African people–but the senseless angry sometimes deserve it. Forgive me, my siblings.
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What it means is; that my post had comments that I realized didn’t come off as being towards the poster they were supposed to and I usually avoided editting my posts because most of the time people who do that come off as trying to make what they posted look better than it really was.
Basically if I make a mistake I just own up to it and leave my post how it was.
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I see. Though I did not mean you as the editing poster, actually it’s Bulanik who I saw do this.
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V4, in this case we are talking about the use of “nigga”, wich seems to be considered as somewhat less hostile than the -er word. The difference, may be small, but to me it may be significant.
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This is exactly why people need to stop using the N-word all-together. Either everyone can use the term, or nobody at all.
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There are egos, there are misunderstandings, there are anger-issues and there is poor grammar.
And there is arrogance!
Everyone has something to say Onitaset and just because Bulanik doesnt necessarily agree with what you have said, doesnt make her ‘senseless and angry’. Considering how ‘learned’ and ‘educated’ you try to come across I am surprised you are resorting to this, the type of tactic used by certain WP on blogs like this to validate their narrow and stereotypical viewpoint of BP.
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@Dee
“This is exactly why people need to stop using the N-word all-together. Either everyone can use the term, or nobody at all.”
I understand what you’re saying, but it’s not easy. The NAACP tried to perform a symbolic mock funeral burying the N-word, but that in itself didn’t prevent people, white and black, from using it.
It may have been a noble attempt to silence the word, but all it did was symbolize the problem Americans, in particular, have when it comes to race. We can try and bury this dark history of racism as deep as we want. We can try to bury racism as much as we want. But their spirits still remain in the hearts and minds of Americans and Europeans as evidenced here. In other words if we want to try and get people to stop using the word we have to get to the root of why such a word is used in the first place, and that means facing the ugly, truthful past. It won’t work on everyone, but at least there will be a better understanding.
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Onitaset,
Of course you totally missed the point I was making, which doesn’t surprise me at all.
I’m done addressing you, LOL, like I’m really supposed to be bothered by that comment of yours. Why should I self censure the H-word? If I censored it, how would you know what word I was referring to?
People can say Nigger and Nigga and whatever else all day long, why don’t people use Honkey/Cracker just as much?….Censorship indeed.
Besides, SENSIBLE people know not to use such derogatory language to each other because it is DISRESPECTFUL regardless of your race, your colour or creed, plain and simple or whether or not those words are used in rap songs with women shaking what they have got or trash magazines.
That type of article is basically saying go ahead, it is ok to insult women especially black women and to use distasteful language like calling a woman a bitch and claiming that black women want to beat up everybody (or at least giving that impression).
The only time I would pick up any of those magazines and leaf through them is when they are free on a table somewhere, because frankly, I’m not wasting my money on it and that’s why I don’t buy them.
@Hannu Lipponen….No way ever would I listen to derogatory music with N-word in front of any children, and if I had kids, there is no way we would listen to that rubbish…..If there are children around, we make it a point to listen to CLEAN music, since they are so easily influenced and absorb everything like a sponge.
Common sense……End of story.
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“What I wrote was that the designation for a race should not be used as a critical word, as Hannu Lipponen seemed to be defending.”
And where the FU*K did I exactly defend the use of n-word???
Are you thick in the head or what?
And that, by the way, was a rhetoric question.
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The reality is that people of African descent is never seen as people simply because of their physical features. This is why white people here and in Europe delight to see everything they think is wrong with black people. As a result this has gone on so long that it’s no surprise that black people themselves have internalized it and became what white people have wanted them to be whether it’s looking as white as possible to conforming to negative stereotypes.
In the end it’s all the fault of white supremacist racism. End of story.
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@ Abagond,
First do understand that the Dutch don’t take bad languague on its own as that serious, as that bad, as the Yankees do. So the insulting value compared to say, actually hitting somebody is probably seen as less.
N-I-double G-E-R is just considered as English spelling for N-I-double K-E-R, and well that is nowadays the worst race based non-composite insult of the language, I’d say. Variants of the word, like N-I-double G-A, or the diminiutive of the Dutch version, are seen as much less insulting, almost euphemisms. They are simply not the N-word, they lack the full shock value. So, THE N-word was not used.
The N-I-double G-A version, has no Dutch counterpart and is thus probably imported straight from “Black” movies and music, and though.those manifestations of black US culture, have their downsides, to use an euphemism, the word is that often used with associations of pride, strength and friendship, that though people may know about the offensive value, they may not feel it and feel it is positive word or at least neutral word.
That is of course excluding the people who are deep into rap music , the reversed bounties (wiggers in the US) and other more conscious people, and the large group who really does not care one way or another..
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@Sepultura13
“Articles” such as these are basically modern-day “Inventions of the Savage” – this link from the BBC explains it quite well:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16295827
Something like this was almost revived in 2010 in Texas:
http://stuffwhitepeopledo.blogspot.com/2010/05/displace-non-white-peoples-and-put-them.html
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Demerera,
“Arrogance.” Yes.
But it’s amazing to me how open insults are. And more, the ‘senseless anger’ is the most fitting description I could lend her.
Unfortunately, Bulanik edits her post; but surely, shortly after my jest toward her sarcasm (with a 😛 emote no less), she referred to me as what can be translated to witless, hateful to and intimidated by African women, and best purposed toward her entertainment. Now she is accusing me of stalking her for typing on to a post that she invited me.
Through this, though Hannu had insulted our African religions, insulted my intelligence and called me “untrained” she never took an issue with him.
“Arrogance” may fit me; but so does senseless anger, I would say. After all, why doesn’t she take an issue with Hannu?
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“Through this, though Hannu had insulted our African religions, insulted my intelligence and called me “untrained” she never took an issue with him.”
READ. When did I insult original african religions? When? Do point me to that, and I will apologize.
But, to your amusement, as an atheist, and someone totally fascinated and enamored by the caleidoscopic nature of human culture, I do not value ANY religion over ANOTHER. I love different cultures from pyramids to Angor Wat, from the ancient civilizations of Africa (Zimbabwe and the zulu Chaka) to the Polynesian and Easter Island, to the Olmec heads of South America to the Silk Road and Forbidden City to the stave churches of Norway…
Who would’ve thunk it?
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Hannu, I honestly could not care any less as to what you think.
However, remind me of when you provided any ‘proof’ to your claims despite having demanded that I do.
Then remind me as to when Christianity had little to do with the Western way of thinking, since you so quickly dismissed that when the question was on how Westerners think.
Though, Hannu, I can concede that your writing is very veiled:
“You do realize that christianity was forced upon africans by white colonialists? Basically you are just preaching their agenda. Where are your original, animistic african beliefs??”
The context suggests an insult, especially as African religions are not animistic. What do you mean beside an insult? After all, I mentioned Asar and Aset, therefore I was evoking original African beliefs, no?
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@ Onitaset
You cared enough to comment.
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Well, most of nordic and fenno-ugrian beliefs are animistic and shamanistic, especially the worship of the bear; the lord of the forest. He has many names, euphenisms in finnish. Bear= Karhu, but in order not to anger the mighty spirit, he was also called ‘kontio, mesikämmen (honey paw), otso, ohto, metsän herra (lord of the forest).
Killing, and respecting the power and the spirit of the bear by arrangin a special feast for him is one of the most original believes of Finns. His death was revered so much that there was a special funerary protocol, the ‘karhun peijaiset’.
Nothing wrong with that, it is the most original way of respecting and understanding the nature and the cosmos.
I have more understanding and respect of the subject than you can imagine.
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@ teddy1975
If that second youtube link was indeed Belgian, then it was a mistake and indeed had no relevance. However, even if it is a parody of a children’s song, I do not see how it makes lyrics about violently attacking a particular group of people any less offensive.
As for the rest, I posted them as the reasons behind my lack of surprise and evidence of my belief… which is that Hoeke’s feeling that it is acceptable to refer to a Black woman as a `N***ab*tch’ can come from the society that she grew up in. If, as you say, `n*gga’ is widely used in the Netherlands and is not so insulting there, then what I claimed is true and relevant.
Here’s what you typed:
Though, if this is the case, then why did Hoeke and Gijrath not explain this instead of claiming it was a `joke’ or `an interpretation of a fashion style’?
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proudchocolategirl says,
@ leigh and then those same racist white people will complain that there’s no racism, we’re past all that…so therefore bp are just complaining all the time for no reason and using the n-word…”and we can’t use it, so that’s not fair…” well guess what else isn’t fair 300 years of slavery and then not being compensated…Jim Crow isn’t fair…the fact that bp have a lower life expectancy than wp just (even when you control for socio-economics) isn’t fair…racism itself is enough to shorten a black person’s life…that aint fair.
the fact that black children have to study in schools and inhale lead paint that causes brain damage isn’t fair…being profiled isn’t fair…having one of the worst unemployment rates isn’t fair…being discriminated in work isn’t fair.. neo-colonialism and sweat labor in west africa where u get paid in cents for corporate companies (which is pretty much the same as slavery) isn’t fair…where are these racist white people when things that REALLY aren’t fair go down…?
they just wanna sit in their plush chairs and type into their laptop on the internet and type foolishness and nonsense up…and then write articles about “if i was a poor black kid…this is what i would do…”
it’s ridiculous the nerve some people have
laromana says,
proudchocolategirl,
I strongly agree with your comments.
I find it insulting/offensive/patronizing when HATERS engage in HATEFUL behavior (ANTI-BW HATE in this instance) and choose to MINIMIZE/DENY/DISMISS their HATE rather than ADMIT it’s WRONG/ HONESTLY APOLOGIZE.
That’s why I support Rhianna’s final F—– Y– comment because it seems to be the most effective/appropriate response to UNREPENTANT HATERS.
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What Eva Hoeke was trying to say is she never meant to offend anyone White. Black people apparently were not a concern.
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@Iris, I did not say “Nigga” was widely used in the Netherlands, just that it was not perceived as as offensive as the real N-word, as clearly at least somewhat offensive value, as Abagond was asking about that.
The word used, however, was formed by combining that “harmless” variant of the N-word with one indicating man’s best female friend, and it cannot be denied that this composite word clearly has an offensive value, certainly in combination with “ultimate”, and that its use for a style to dress children under 5, even if a bit tongue in cheek is rather upsetting to some, even if Hoeke uses it to describe her own past behaviour.
@laromana F.Y.does not even register as slightly insulting in the Netherlands in a context like this, it is what’s coming before that in the response which gives rise to questions..
Unrepentant yes, insulting, tasteless, over the line and dumb, yes, but HATE? Sorry, but I’d say that I doubt that such an expression is deserved here. Total indifference, that could well be the case.
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Sorry, the first version should not have been posted.
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Was some one asking for me? Hey, I never said there are no racists in Europe. But over here it is not part of the system as it is in USA. Racism and racists are everywhere. Like this shows.
As for the N word and this story. These people are ingnoramuses. I do not think they are stone cold racists in the style of KKK, they are just really dumb asses with the white privilidge. They really do not understand anything other than what they think they understand. They tried to make a story about Rihannas style and wanted to be cool and Street and sexy and blablabla, and put their feet up their asses six feet deep.
Now, why they are so defensive? Media is always like that. Their first and foremost stance is this: we make no mistakes. We are right. We are the Media. We have the right. Just look at the Fox TV. Outright lies, falsifications, openly, and what? Nothing. Why? Because we are the Media. WHITE MEDIA!
I think Rihanna did right. Calling her N, GhBch, what ever, was and is an insult. It is racist but it is also just a fkin insult. You do not call anybody with names, unless you are stupid a-hole, like this dutchie bitchie. I think she realized her mistake but being a media “professional” she refuses to admit it. Instead she makes it an issue of freedom of speach. I bet that she did not understand what she did.
She had see too many rap videos and was convinced that this is Cooooool, like ghetto, you know, which is cool. Like burned down buildings, criminals, poverty, desperation, health problems, run down social system and all that is sooooooo coooool. I bet she was thinking like this. Why? Because she is white and livig well. That is why for her, ghettoes and slums are exciting places, amusement parks, exciting places where one can have adventures and drama, you know, like survival game or something! GTA Coool!
For this white woman pimping is cool. Prostitution is cool, particulary when it is a black woman from “the gettoh” selling her body on the street, sorry, “In De Streetah”. Crack dealers are cool, they all look like 50 cent and his abs and have golden pistols and coooooool jewelry, nice cars and sex, sex, sex, and some sex, heyyyyy! Gang bangers are coooooooool too. Isn’t it cool when some one shoots some one else, stabs someone for dime, and dresses so coooooooool? Yeah. What a white woman would not have wet dreams about studs like that, eh? That is why it is so cool that Rihanna is an Ngr and GhBch. That is how this white ducth woman was thinking.
As for this publisher. He does not give a Fk. This is publicity, free of charge. Controvercy sells. This gives his magazine more Edge. Free publicity. Hey, buy this magazine, it is so cool that it calls Rihanna a GhBch and Ngr! That is how cool our magazine is, heyyyy. Buy it now. Read what it is all about! Right here! Only 4,45 euros!
The saddest thing is this: it shows how little these dutch understand what Rihanna is singing about or what she is about. For them she is just an entertainer, a product, a fake, not a real person singing about her life. Because, after all, it is just show business without any substance. Right?
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To summarize what I wrote
@Iris, I did not write that the use of it is widespread, it is rather the opposite, avoid “Black Urban English Music” totally and you’ll never hear it in the Netherlands, provided you do not watch a certain kind of movies. I wrote it was not seen as the N-word and thus fairly inoffensive, and maybe not negative at all. That does not mean it is used a lot.
The word used, however, was N-I-double G-A-B-I-T-C-H, and though the components may not be perceived as that bad, the combination however is clearly insulting, denigrating and totally over the line for an article about child’s clothing. On the other hand, trying to shock, insult or even draw the attention of a Dutch person with F.Y. will fail utterly in this context. Stating: “I cut food with my fork” would work much better,
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@ brothawolf:
That link was fascinating – even today, in the 21st century, people still want to cling to the 18th when it comes to science! Go figure…
@ Hannu:
Ursus arctos horribilis is truly the mighty lord of the forest! The feast you mention reminds me of the native american rituals of the Alaskan tribes, after a successful hunt of whale, walrus, bear, elk, or moose. The great animals were revered as contributors to the tribe’s survival, such as they were. That is far more honest than sitting in an expensive building, tossing coins in a plate as so-called ‘alms for the indigent and destitute’…
@ Nom de Plume:
Yes – it is. Disturbing things tend to be eye-openers.
@ Bulanik:
Exactly. The corset and what it symbolized is interesting, to say the least – again, it reinforces the fact that the attributes of black women are desired by the same people who insist that they’re reviled…methinks those people protest too much. The limitations of the corset is why I laugh at the latest Hollywood resurrection of the 3 Musketeers and Sherlock Holmes – a woman in a corset could barely use the restroom by herself, much less leap about, swinging a sword or rapier in heated combat! So ridiculous…
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The “n-word” is foul and one of the lowest of the low, filthiest insult in any language. Being the only PoC in a small Alaskan town was no picnic, as I had to hear that filth hurled at me on a daily basis. It is not a term of endearment. It is not a nickname. It is not kind. Those who use it and claim ignorance are fucking liars. It is a racist insult – PoC who embrace it are those who believe the lie.
What wonderful people those adults were, tossing that word about like a baseball and then throwing it at a child as hard as they could, determined to injure their target in any way possible.
Do I hate? Yes. I try not to, as it is a waste of time and energy. But sometimes it’s too easy…I learned from the best, don’t ya know?
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White people want to be able to call Black people ni**ers openly because it irritates them to have to change what they call Black people in private when they are in public. To have to self-censor themselves over the feelings of a ni**er (what they consider a lesser being) is highly irritating, “The negro has no rights that the White man is bound to respect”.
But what really angers White people is the notion that Black people can call themselves Ni**a and use the word but they can’t. White people are incensed at the idea that a people who they consider their property and their inferiors can do something that they can’t, especially as it is the use of their favourite word.
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OK, so….according to a lot of these comments here, Rihanna deserved to be called a N****B**** bc of how she dresses and the words she uses in her songs?
I wonder why no one ever called the likes of Madonna, Gaga or Brittany spears a HonkyB**** or peckerwoodrb**** —hmmm, that can be related to style, no?
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@ Indigoblu, err, in which songs did those artists use “Honky” or “Peckerwood”? The word for female dog?
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@teddy
Does any song they sing have to save say those things in order for it to be equally racist for someone to make such a comment towards them?
I mean, really….if it were just a “style” as the writer claimed…..
The words are both racially and gender based.
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@Bulanik…..
I read a comment as I was scrolling through, some folks said she deserved it and I don’t remember who exactly made it.. one was more subtle, the other outright, but it’s discussed there somewhere.
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When did N****B**** become a “style”? Playing the ” I had no idea” is not working here, not even a little bit.
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Look, indigoblu, I don’t know when it became a style, but as Eva Hoeke claims in PRINT dating before the scandal, that she used to be a N****B**** herself, it seems that to Eva Hoeke the word does indeed indicate a style. At least the insulting Jackie page does describe it as a style for children.
And yes, the justification for those words some bloggers and posters use is indeed found in Rihanna’s use of language.
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“Now, why they are so defensive? Media is always like that. Their first and foremost stance is this: we make no mistakes. We are right. We are the Media. We have the right. Just look at the Fox TV. Outright lies, falsifications, openly, and what? Nothing. Why? Because we are the Media. WHITE MEDIA!”
THANK YOU!
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@teddy…
Finding it in her language is irrelevant, don’t you get that? Finding words that you don’t quite understand in the context in which it was used, or trying to mold it into a context of your own to cross racial lines, does NOT work white folks–never has never will!..and it surely does not mean it was not racial motivated, not when at the heart of things, it’s still a word dealing with race—which clearly Eva is not a part of, now is she? …so those words fall on deaf ears.
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How dreadful. This past year, I became aware that the ‘new’, n-word is ‘ninja’, which is synonymous with the n-word. So, now many white students in my classes {college prof} throw this word, ninja, about freely. Once I bcame aware of the denotative/connotative meaning, now being deemed interchangeable with the n-word, I requested the students not to use it in my presence. To add insult to injury, there is always that black, usually male student who will want to use the word anyway, and will argue with me on the differences between the n-word ending in er vs. a or uh. It is very stressful.
How do I go to student affairs and complain that white students are using the word ‘ninja’? Now that this phrase n—er b-ch has hit social media, I can only hope that I will not hear it in my classrooms to describe Black American females.
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@sepultura13:
I had similar experiences growing up. I was called nigger, jungle bunny and spear chucker among other ‘nice’ names, on a daily basis. I was called it so often you would have thought those were the names on my birth certificate. Luckily I come from a long line of two fisted broads! This was a generational thing with my family so the advice was ‘if in doubt, punch them out’! For those who say violence isn’t the answer, tell that to a kid who was being threatened with physical and verbal assaults on an almost daily basis. As a kid you respond with like, not philosophizing. For those fools who think it is just a name, given the historical back drop of its’ meaning and usages, they can shove it! Now do I ‘hate’ white folks? No, but like Seputura, it is an ongoing battle. What’s frightening, is there are myriad ways to call someone a nigger without uttering the word. Now that is truly scary when it is systemic in nature and affects your employment, housing etc. I couldn’t care a wit if some ahole wants to talk like that among the like-minded. When it has a deleterious effect among groups of people, then I mind. Calling this woman such a name, and the ensuing brouhaha, is an example of systemic discrimination at its’ most blatant.
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@oyan,
I’m sorry, not to sound insensitive here, but that is funny. Ninja….wth? See what I mean, it just doesn’t work, white folks lol.
wow.
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In addition to Sarah Baartman, Josephine Baker is also a spiritual descendent of this racially based misogyny. The only difference that Baker knew she was faking it.
Baker’s mise en scène of the primitive accorded well with the expectations of the French public. For the Parisians, she imported the breath of the jungle. Perceived as “intoxication and unleashed instincts, unknown delirium, frenzy and deranged animality,”[18] she represented, in the eyes of the public, the return of the repressed, the black continent of Freud, the triumph of primitive and spontaneous instincts over the intellect. She was described in the press as “a beautiful savage animal,” a “gracious, small, exotic animal,” and a “strange and splendid savage beast [….]”[19] These illusions to animality were by no means unique in the reception of Josephine Baker in the period. A virtual menagerie was constructed around her: she was considered a she-monkey, a serpent, a giraffe, a kangaroo, a gorilla, a panther and an exotic bird.
For most non -blacks black women are considered less than human and less than female. No amount of whitesplaining changes that fact.
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@brothawolf: I don’t understand why the word is used in the first place. I’m black and it never makes way into my vocabulary. I’ve been in the company of whites who once said it (in a joking way, referring to another white person), and then asked if I was okay with it, and I said “no”, but it doesn’t change anything, because to them it’s still an acceptable thing to say. they’ll just not say it in the presence of me. a bit dissapointing they couldn’t see how it wasn’t okay to use a derogatory term so casually. but at the same time, I, myself, am hypocritical, as I refer to things as being “gay” or “retarded”, even though I don’t mind gays (I’m catholic, but I’m totally cool with them) and have sympathy for the disabled. I don’t use any racial slurs or w/e, though.. that’s something I’m staunchly against, as it’s something that directly affects me. so basically, change is difficult. I guess change will have to be more of a generational thing, then. I think it’s easier to be against something when you’re personally affected. If I was close to someone who was disabled it would be natural for me to feel much hatred against using the term “retarded”. but yeah.. I don’t really know what I’m trying to say. I guess we just have to try to be good people, to be better people, even if we mess up?
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to anyone saying “the dutch are the most tolerant people in the world” “They just didn’t get it”, you should wake up and look at how they actually treat/perceive POC in their country. Turks, Moroccans, and others are openly hated for being different. Just because they have what seems like a whimsical, silly language to North Americans doesn’t mean they aren’t capable of hatred of the most disgusting kind.
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@Eshowoman
“Whitespaining” I like that word, it fits.
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@sam my thing is there is alot of whites in america who left Europe due to oppression, and some were persecuted when they got here, at least half of my Irish ancestors, on my Dads fathers side left because of the potato famine, others when they got here were forced to fight in the civil war to gain citizenship. So to me you are a johnny come lately pointing your finger at american whites. My Italian grandfather came here in 1914 when he was 8 years old and his first job was at a factory for 2 dollars a day. Tell me that isn’t basically slavery. Most of us grew up in america trying to like everybody, but competition between classes and races is hard to stay pure. Many people say whites are seen as individuals and blacks are not. But I would say bullcrud because many blacks on here will blame every white person in the world when they see a story like this..
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@dave: My mother was a three days old refugee baby with shit stained diapers on with nothing more when she escaped from Carelia in 1939 and her father was in the army and her mother had two babies and just the clothes on, no idea where to go or what to do, no food, home burned down, no money no place to sleep. And mind you, this happened in the middle of winter. And on top of that, other finns called the carelian refugees as russkies.
My fathers home had two rooms, no plumming, no electricity, no central heating and housed 8 kids, two parents and two other grown ups. He went to work in logging at the age of 12 during the winter, walked to school in the same clothes all year round. He was so poor that he would walk five miles just to catch a movie. If he took a buss, he did not have the money to see the film.
His mother left home at the age of 13, had her own barber shop at the age of 15, gave birth to 7 kids, one was born dead, adopted one, gave birth twice alone, worked all the time with her husband in the war and after the war working weeks at the time away from home as a lorry driver.
Life in Finland has not been easy either. Civil war 1918, winter war 1939-40, WW2 1941-44, Lapland war 1944-45. 400 000 refugees, loss of the richest farmland in the country. Famine in 1918, in 1941-42, in 1944-45. Tens of thousands of injured veterans. Hundreds of millions of war paymentes to the USSR. Ruined towns. Railways. Homes. Lives.
I know how italians and irish were treated in US at first. That is why I wonder how come they never strated to fight against the treatment, why they did not join with blacks in demanding equality and human rights for all. Actually the irish were treated even worse than blacks when they first arrived in USA. That should have been a wake up call of sorts.
Instead of getting all riled up that some black are accusin “all whites”, you should get riled up againts the system that plays you guys one gainst the other. For some reason, and I really do not know what it is, american poor have always refused to unite. The elite has always been able to play the poor white against the blacks, the blacks against the chinese, the poor irish against the poor italians etc. And while you still keep doing it, that same elite steals your tax dollars and tells you to go fuck yourself. It is very hard to understand why it is so.
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AJ, the Netherlands has a deep history of religious conflict, religious segregation and all, and that still shapes the Dutch worldview, compared to the US it seems often to be really colorblind, which is not the same as being free from bigotry.
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Julian Curry Def Poetry- on the Hx, variations of this vile word, and the need to STOP this insanity and reclaim our humanity. Powerful!
For those non-POC, especially privileged whining ‘Whites’ who just can’t seem to wrap their brain around why the use of the word is offensive, and for naive ‘Blacks’ who defend the use of the word- get your notepads out, sit down, and pay attention to this clip.
Thank you. From a long-time reader, 1st time poster.
Keep up the great work Abagond.
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Well, as a PR-campaign it worked, I bought the issue, this magazine tries to be that to Fashion magazines, which Mad is to comics. Mind you, the NB article is to be found in the “Fashion, Dress code”-section.
The NB word is used most on page 127, three times all referring to Eva Hoeke. The entire glossy is somewhat sleazy, dirty, and believe, me the except for Jay-Z (that’s on a small picture) and a few Asian models, you have to look pretty white to be included. Beyonce and Rihanna do, at least on their pics printed in the mag.
Judging by the baby pix of the editors, some of them may be somewhat colored,none of them honestly black,
That said, after reading the offending issue, it becomes clear that Rihanna made herself somewhat into laughing stock to people familiar with the mag. It seems there are PoC comfortable with it, it has a kind of humor, which is distinctive, but the only legit information one should expect to find in it is what item of clothing is sold where for how much, it is to be expected that if you show up late for your act, people from mags and papers visiting the show will have a bit of revenge, I mean that Rihanna does not protest against being described on page 21 as thoroughly stoned, makes one wonder. Especially about how stoned one has to be to suggest that a magazine with interviews covering way more indecently sexual nonsensical topics than, say, Playboy or Penthouse, should cover serious topics beyond clothing.
To be honest, considering the n… part of NB, I guess that all alternatives would at least have been as shocking to the intended public.
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@Teddy1975
She may not have minded being called “thoroughly stoned” because in fact its possible she may have been stoned.
May have looked at that as a legitimate criticism as to her as a person or individual.
Don’t know honestly; just throwing that out there.
I think thats almost kind of the point; she didn’t go after the stuff that was purely personal attacks on her, she went after the stuff that degraded an entire race.
Just because your not a serious magazine, doesn’t mean you have to be a racist one.
Also you mention some black people there being okay with it; but you also mention someone named Humerto Tan that felt it was inappropiate.
So it doesn’t seem to be that clear cut on an issue as to be avante garde humor or something.
I mean; it could actually be against this kind of thing, that its just a level of satire, sarcasm and irony that it simply went above my head, not an impossibility I suppose but it doesn’t seem like it was going for that.
Though really; I mean, end of the day, its not like you see racial insults being paired up with other women.
I mean how commonly do they call asians over there “gook bitch” without it being intended to be hurtful and degrading?
I think it says something that “only” black women get that treatment, everyone else simply has too much actual human value for that standard to get applied.
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Well, Jackie has a certain tone of voice with its satire, sarcasm, irony and sexual explicitness, which makes the text in context appear fully normal. I have seen no translation of the text, which represents the text well, which is understandable as translating fake street-slang into another language is very hard to do. The “attempt to be funny” aspect of that page is clear in Dutch, that the ten-letter word had lost racial connections to the Jackie editors became clear on page 127, the poor interviewed white hiphop artist choked in reaction to hearing it out of he mout of Eva Hoeke, as a description of her past, that should have been a warning!
Looking at the pictures (excluding the small one of the father of Beyonce’s baby) they seemed to have (at least for this issue) the: “It doesn’t matter what race you ARE, but you have to be able to pass for white to be in here.”-policy, and that is something I consider as much more degrading than the ten-letter word: The I-have-to-look-as-white-as-Beyonce- or-Rihanna-message.
I guess the root cause is rather that N-I-double G-A is seen by people from a Dutch background as different from N-I-double G-E-R, while people from a US-background see it mostly as the same, as such the use of it in the ten-letter word would be a “cool” way to signal “hiphop” to non-hiphop Dutch people. Somebody did check it among Hiphop folks in the States, the Netherlands and Surinam (small population, but for an important part “black” and speaking Dutchl) but all of them were completely unfamilar with the tenletter word. It’s not hiphop, and most certainly NOT Dutch standard language.
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teddy1975 says,
@laromana F.Y.does not even register as slightly insulting in the Netherlands in a context like this, it is what’s coming before that in the response which gives rise to questions..
Unrepentant yes, insulting, tasteless, over the line and dumb, yes, but HATE? Sorry, but I’d say that I doubt that such an expression is deserved here. Total in
difference, that could well be the case.
laromana says,
Whether F Y “registers in the Netherlands” or not is inconsequential.
My point is that when ANTI-BW HATERS attempt to MINIMIZE/DENY/DISMISS their HATE (ie attacks on the HUMANITY/DIGNITY/FEMININITY of BW) rather than ADMIT it’s WRONG/ HONESTLY APOLOGIZE they DESERVE a 2 word expletive like F Y.
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eshowoman says,
For most non -blacks black women are considered less than human and less than female. No amount of whitesplaining changes that fact.
laromana says,
EXCELLENT observation eshowoman!
This mindset is at the HEART of ANTI-BW HATE CULTURE in America and around the world.
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V-4 says,
I think it says something that “only” black women get that treatment, everyone else simply has too much actual human value for that standard to get applied.
laromana says,
EXCELLENT observation, V-4.
It’s enfuriating to see how easily ANTI-BW HATERS EXCUSE EXCLUSIVE attacks on the humanity, dignity, and feminity of BW.
It’s obvious that these ANTI-BW HATERS believe that ONLY BW deserve to be demeaned/degraded/disrespected.
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“My point is that when ANTI-BW HATERS attempt to MINIMIZE/DENY/DISMISS their HATE (ie attacks on the HUMANITY/DIGNITY/FEMININITY of BW) rather than ADMIT it’s WRONG/ HONESTLY APOLOGIZE they DESERVE a 2 word expletive like F Y.”
Which when directed at a Dutch person will be seen as harmless and will fail to get the message of being seriously insulted accross, which was my point. My goodness, if you did not know that Rihanna was supposed to be black, you would not have learnt it from that mag. My point was that she should have used STRONGER languague.
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Laromona, why do ‘black women’, only get such stringent segregatiohn?
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Reblogged this on Clandestine Underground and commented:
Wow. This just….Wow.
SMDH
There is no way in h-e-double hockey sticks they didn’t know this was racist. Not to mention sexist, i.e. the use of the “b-word”.
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The female dog word is not sexist if it’s used by a woman, at least, that would be the case if we would apply the rules Rihanna seems to apply to N-I-double G-A.
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Bitch when used by a women can be equally degrading and dehumanizing as when used by a man.
Just like the word Nigga when used by some one of african descent can be degrading as well.
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Abagond:
If this incident is not a wakeup call to blackmen on this planet, I don’t know what will. As per usual, we only get outraged when someone of another race disrespects blackwomen. When we do it as blackmen, we brush it off as trivial. Chris Brown beat the hell out of Rhianna, and negroes in this country had the nerve to say that she provoked him. When hip-hop made excuses for Chris Brown’s violence against a blackwoman, I knew right then and there that blackmen on this planet are f**ked up in a major way. Hip-Hop, Sports, Crime…the same bulls**t. We don’t love and respect our women, Why should we expect others to do the same? Whitewomen have gotten bold, whitewashed blackmen chase after them. So, they think they can talk s**t to blackwomen. Self-hating blackmen are the source of this plague, which is why i will never give a damn’ about them…Period! I don’t care what anybody says, they’re the genesis of this insanity…Real Talk! Let’s call a spade a spade black people.
Tyrone
Black Eros Movement
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Tyrone says,
Abagond:
If this incident is not a wakeup call to blackmen on this planet, I don’t know what will. As per usual, we only get outraged when someone of another race disrespects blackwomen. When we do it as blackmen, we brush it off as trivial. Chris Brown beat the hell out of Rhianna, and negroes in this country had the nerve to say that she provoked him. When hip-hop made excuses for Chris Brown’s violence against a blackwoman, I knew right then and there that blackmen on this planet are f**ked up in a major way. Hip-Hop, Sports, Crime…the same bulls**t. We don’t love and respect our women, Why should we expect others to do the same? Whitewomen have gotten bold, whitewashed blackmen chase after them. So, they think they can talk s**t to blackwomen. Self-hating blackmen are the source of this plague, which is why i will never give a damn’ about them…Period! I don’t care what anybody says, they’re the genesis of this insanity…Real Talk! Let’s call a spade a spade black people.
Tyrone
Black Eros Movement
laromana says,
Tyrone,
Thanks for your EXCELLENT comment and for being a PRO-BW BM.
If ALL BM were PRO-BW and chose to ALWAYS DEFEND the humanity, dignity and femininity of BW from ANYONE who attacked it, BW would NOT be the MOST DISRESPECTED women on the planet.
Hopefully, more BM will wake up and adopt a PRO-BW attitude like yours soon.
oyan says,
Laromana, why do ‘black women’, only get such stringent segregatiohn?
laromana says,
oyan,
What I’ve learned growing up/living as a BW in America is that American ANTI-BW HATE culture began during the days of slavery when slavemasters/ANY WM could rape/abuse/kill BW/Black girls without punishment because BW/Black girls were NOT considered HUMAN/REAL WOMEN.
Just BEING a BW is the main reason BW have ALWAYS been SINGLED out in America for HARSH/HATEFUL treatment.
ANTI-BW HATERS in America used lies, myths, stereotypes (eg. the mammy, sapphire, and jezebel stereotypes) to justify BRUTALIZING BW/Black girls and attacking their humanity, dignity, and femininity.
They also BRAINWASHED American men to mistreat BW/REFUSE to treat them like HUMAN/REAL women (eg. by telling them to NOT date and/or marry BW) SOLELY because they’re BW.
ANTI-BW HATE culture continues to influence the way BW are viewed/treated globally to this day.
Along with the Rhianna N-word incident, another excellent example of how
ANTI-BW HATE culture operates, is the way First Lady Michelle Obama is treated.
ANTI-BW HATERS, regardless of their political views, CONSTANTLY engage in NEVER BEFORE SEEN online/offline demeaning, degrading, and disrespectful attacks on the First Lady’s dignity/femininity (eg. calling her babymama, ugly, big butt, a monkey, stating that Pres. Obama should have married a NON-BW, etc.) SOLELY because she’s a BW,
The fact that many MINIMIZE/DENY/DISMISS/NEVER feel that BW have a right to TAKE OFFENSE AT/DEFEND THEMSELVES against ANTI-BW HATE (as seen on this very post), is evidence of ANTI-BW HATE culture in action.
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One problem in these discourses is that the NAACP is ignored; though a huge factor in the hatred of “Blacks” is the NAACP.
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laromana:
Appreciate the love sista…Always! My loyalty to sistas is real, It’s not a game. Why are sistas attacked so much by others? This is the $64,000 question that is often asked. Laromana, please allow me to get deeper than deep with it. Blackwomen deserve to know the real story, as it relates to this issue.
“Reality Mode”
Attacking blackwomen is a smokescreen. Men will never attack other men directly, they’ll always attack the most beloved…The Women!
Attacking blackwomen is the easiest and most effective way to f**k with the psyche of blackmen.
Brainwashing blackmen to turn against blackwomen expedites the process.
If a race of men don’t love their women, there is no need for guns, knives, bombs, and tanks to destroy them.
Sex is the most effective weapon known to humankind. If you wanna distract blackmen, throw p***y at them…Logic 101.
Self-hating blackmen are not a threat to other men, because, there’s no loyalty to their race and children. In other words, if the s**t hits the fan, they’re not gonna protect blackwomen and children anyway. There loyalty lies elsewhere…Real Talk!
Without loyal blackmen to defend them, blackwomen are easy targets for men of other races. Non-black men have easy access, which is the ultimate aim and objective of brainwashing blackmen to turn away from blackwomen in the first place.
Blackwomen are the real prize, they have what other men want more than anything…DNA!
In closing, self-loving, blackwoman-loving blackmen are hated because they will never forsake their responsibility as men of african descent, which is…God, Man, Woman, and Child…Alpha & Omega!!!
Tyrone
Black Eros Movement
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Ahhh The Netherlands the country which tourists often view as tolerant & modern and not as stiff and supposedly racist as their german neighbours.
The dutch see to love to disguise any form of racism or prejudice as funny or tradition, dare speak against it and you will be beaten and arrested by dutch policemen, a country which quite clearly has deep routed institutional racism.
Having grown up in Germany and the UK I can assure you that the police would not treat black people with an opinion on something that they view to be racist in this mannor.
Some germans can still be racist behing closed doors, but because of their past they don’t want to be openly be viewed as racist and for this reason there is no way a magazine stating ‘niggabitch’ would be published in Germany. But the dutch certainly don’t hold back. As a woman to a black army soldier and german mum I would much rather move back to Germany (me & my dad never experienced any problems with racism when we lived there) than move to Holland.
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Jennifer, what is causing this Dutch-bashing, the editor who considered “niggabitch” as a harmless word, and used it mostly to describe herself has sorta been fired, so what’s the problem, angry the Dutch play better baseball than the Germans?
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The Dutch are know for being liberal and tolerant people and I don’t personally hold the same view and don’t think the country is as liberal as many people outside of The Netherlands seem to think. The fact that the magazine article even got published in their country is an issue, it would not be published in Germany, UK or France as they are more sensitized towards racism in those countries. In the UK police would not be able to behave in that manner towards black people having a harmless protest.
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Teddy just to add the germans and dutch do have a bit of rivalry, however that has nothing to do with my above opinions. People around the world are more prejudice towards germans than the dutch and tend to view the dutch as liberal but they certainly aren’t all totally accepting of other cultures, What the germans and dutch have in common is that they have had a wave of immigrants and quite a marginal population of turkish people in both countries. But the dutch are very vocal about their concerns ie.Geert Wilders and is views on islam. Germans are not so vocal because they don’t like to be branded as racist/bigoted, like I said the dutch don’t hold back.
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Of course the Dutch are very liberal, the problem is that the Dutch political universe is basically a triangle: You’ve got the Christian parties, the socialist ones and the liberals, in which liberal means right wing secular. Small government, and less laws to protect the weak (except for laws protecting people FROM religion) is liberal from a Dutch p.o.v. Mistaking Dutch Liberal for leftwing, makes one seem something like KKK/NSDAP or downright crazy.
Don’t misunderstand the meaning of tolerant, tolerant means that one tolerates something one considers as something making the world a worse place.Which is not a reason for the police to tolerate behaviour likely to cause a breach of peace at an event, certainly not if such breach is likely to cause danger to children.
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The problem is that people overreact here. If someone describes Rihanna as a niggabitch, even if you think that is totally wrong, that does not mean that person is a racist. I wonder is the USA overreacting here a bit or is the word ‘nigga’ too easily used in other countries?
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The N word exists in other languages, it’s just not always spelled with an N. Kaffir (Afrikaans), mayate (Latin American Spanish), & boofer (Polynesian), for instance. You can find more on the Racial Slur Database. I keep up with this stuff so if I hear any of these words directed at me…
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I see the Netherlands seem to get more and more media attention overseas about the racism which has been normalized over here.. Especially since the heat of the last Zwarte Piet debates and protest..
I read part of the comments, but I had to stop at the tauren dance from wow. The song played reminded me too much of the racist bullshit song they made in Belgium at a festival, about beating black men in the same way as they there sing about morrokans.. The entire audience was waving and singing along.. Just two of the entire group of friends who were with me realised that it was too much for me and one followed be out of the tent.. I don’t understand their “humor”..
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@Rolando van Velden.
I see its a common excuse to say people overreact, especially for the Dutch where people see the freedom of speech as an excuse to verbally assault and demeaner people in forms of “jokes”. Just because you don’t feel the pain or understand it does not mean it isn’t real. It’s a childish way of thinking, and as I see you are on Abagond’s page, there are some useful posts about these kinds of excuses for making racist jokes and comments and what racism basically means. I recommend them to you…
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