Hieroglyphs at Abydos, Egypt that are said to show aircraft
A guest post by Mira:
Alien astronaut theory is one of the most popular pseudoscientific theories about Ancient Egypt. According to it, ancient monuments, as well as many aspects of Egyptian civilization, were made by aliens. The proof? Ancient Egyptians were, obviously, unable to build all those impressive monuments (such as pyramids), or to align them like they are, so they must be made by ancient astronauts.
When their views are challenged, proponents of the ancient astronaut theory claim there are so many unexplained things about Egyptian civilization. Namely, the pyramids.
In many cases, what these people (usually without any academic education) see as “strange” is something that archaeology, history, astronomy and other sciences explained a long time ago.
On the other hand, it is undeniable that there are so many things we do not know about Ancient Egypt. This is not surprising: science evolves through time. There are still things to be explained and discovered. But just because we do not have a satisfying answer at the moment does not make these phenomena “unexplainable”. To bring aliens as an explanation is an easy way out. It violates the principles of logic and scientific method.
In short, what makes for a more plausible explanation: that Egyptian pyramids were built by Egyptians, or an alien race that we don’t even know about?
It is also important to note how offensive this theory is to the actual ancient Egyptians. It denies them agency, intelligence and capability to build these monuments. This sort of attitude happens fairly often. It might be described, perhaps, as some sort of “modernistic elitism” that people have shared since the late 18th century. It is an idea born in the Western world; it is a belief in progress, technology, science and knowledge. Therefore, if “we” cannot build a pyramid with ancient tools, it means Egyptians could not do it either.
And because we cannot do it, then there must be somebody with an even superior technological knowledge than ours: aliens or, maybe, people from Atlantis or time travellers from the future. Not the Egyptians.
Modernism originated in the Western civilization, but certain aspects of this elitism exist in many of today’s cultures. People of the 20th and 21st century are taught to look into past cultures for religion, identity, spiritual guidance, tradition, stories, norms and values, but not for technology or scientific knowledge superior to ours.
The ancient astronaut theory is often used on other cultures too. However, Egypt offers a perfect example because it is so famous. Note that most of these other cultures are not European, though there are notable exceptions.
Still, the fact that aliens and other superior beings are often used as an explanation of phenomena found in non-European cultures shows strong Eurocentric attitudes. These cultures, even if greatly admired, cannot be superior in any way to Western civilization. So if a Western man cannnot build it, nobody can.
See also:
Abagond 
I wonder if Abagond has actually set you up, Mira, to write this post because you’ve made some really ignorant and grossly ill-informed statements here!!!
I wonder… Abagond do you too have a view on this? Or are you simply allowing Mira to expand a view you have yet to decide upon?
Now whether or not you believe in ETs (Extra-Terrestrials) is not really the question here. Its whether you believe Western Science with its many multi-disciplinarian areas of research has uncovered everything there is to know about the nature of the world we live in. And this obviously includes the created fictitious past world it has labelled as “Egypt”. Which I am sure you would concede never existed 10,000 years ago.
You have a certain non-intellectual arrogance I’ve noticed for labelling something you have little or no knowledge of as “pseudo-science”. This, in itself to me, is not very “scientific”, “logical” or “rational” on your part.
There is a recent whole series of programs, which you can find freely available to watch on the internet, devoted to the “scientific” evidence of “Ancient Aliens” on the History channel:
http://www.history.com/shows/ancient-aliens/articles/ancient-alien-theory
Now you may not agree with the extensive research and conclusions generated by the films but at least you might be mildly more informed about the subject your so eager to talk about.
There is much I could say here about past ET involvement in Earth Origins but allow me to just comment on two things you’ve said that strike me as rather arrogant and presumptuous, or typically “Eurocentric” as you put it:
In short, what makes for a more plausible explanation: that Egyptian pyramids were built by Egyptians, or an alien race that we don’t even know about?
It is also important to note how offensive this theory is to the actual ancient Egyptians.
You’re assuming you know, without question the make up, of the ancient Egyptians when their own depictions of themselves show them to be interacting with beings with, what we recognize as, animal or bird heads?
Is it possible that they might be more offended by traditional Western Science’s insistence that these were merely “stylised” pictures and not actual man-animal hybrid beings?
This is a good quote and I agree, Mira, this is true. It is a purely arrogant Eurocentric approach to take. It was responsible for disbelieving and denying that the Dogon of West Africa were capable of correctly identifying, naming and accurately mapping out the constellation of Sirius with its binary star system. (later Triniry) Particularly when this was unknown in the Scientific Astronomical communities of the late 40’s and 50’s.
Too often it is assumed that the technology possessed now in our present time period is far in advance of anything ever created in the past. But is this really true? The origin of Western Civilisation goes back about 2000 years while the origin of Egypt’s is at least 10,000. But Western civilisation is still assumed to be superior?
I ask you is that rational, logical or pseudo-scientific thinking?
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Abagond didn’t set me up to write this post. I offered to write it myself, in a comment back in one of the Diop posts (can’t really remember which one). Abagond said yes. I assumed it goes without saying that any opinions expressed in guest posts are their author’s opinions and not Abagond’s.
As for the other issues raised in your comment, I will respond to you later, when I have enough time to write a good reply.
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I don’t understand how a theory can be considered pseudo-science. I mean, don’t you actually have to come up with that theory, no matter how “ridiculous”, before you can actually put it up to the scientific method by testing it?
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My take on this is this: egyptians were the creators of acient Egypt. Period. They had the same brains we do, same intellectual capacity, and did use their tools very cleverly.
The problem with all these aliens/ETs/some strange creatures theories is this: vey few historians, argeologists, non-academic historians etc, have any practice of such simple subjects as masonry and/or sculpture. They look at the huge stones and think: I could not do that, so they could not either. And yet, like any sculptor knows, one guy can move a one ton granite block easily in his/hers studio with few logs/steel pipes under that stone. You can roll three ton stone easily alone, if the floor is smooth and you have enough rolls under the thing. You do not believe me? Go ahead and try.
Just to show how these “incredible pyramid stones” can be moved I tell my own personal experience: we were moving my friend and we had a Mercedes Benz van, a big one. It stalled but had to be moved, so my friend jumped in, changed the gear to the free, and I pushed that van up a small slope for about 100 meters alone. Ok, granted, wheels and all, but still. I am not a superman nor I am a pro but I pushed that van weighing much more than a ton up a slope alone. Now think what ten, twenty pros can do?
Why the egyptians did not use wheels? Simply because wheels sink in the soft terrain and the sledge is the most handy there. How the egyptians lifted those stones? Easily, with ropes and pulls, or step by step. Nothing super natural is requiered. Just cool professionalism which those guys had plenty.
How did they break the granite so straight? With the same methods as the incas or any other acient stone masons. Once again, they had the skills. Most of us do not.
The problem is once again our very own perspective: we think that acients were not as smart, advanced, clever, strong or what ever as we are. We think they were stupid. So we can not believe it was them who did those huge statues, pyramids, tombs etc. and yet, it was them all right. Ordinary egyptian craftsmen way back then, payed by the pharaos.
No aliens, no gods, no extra terrestial powers, no magic, simple acient egyptian professionalism. That is all.
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I do not necessarily agree with my guest posters, but they tend to have something more interesting to say on a topic than I would have, either because they know more about it or have thought about it more. In this case Mira knows way more about archaeology than I do.
As to ancient astronauts I think it is driven more by Eurocentrism than by proof.
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The Cynic,
Technically, yes. But only if you do want to follow scientific principles. If not, you can make up whatever you want and call it a theory. But here, maybe I’ve made a mistake (a language one): maybe “the idea” would be more appropriate term to use?
Still, you can have theories that don’t follow scientific principles.
Teshnically, you don’t test a theory; you test a hypothesis. Then you try to prove it wrong, because you can rarely prove something right. If all of the atempts to prove a hypothesis wrong fail, you may start to form your theory based on it.
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And one more thing: if we have a stone that weighs a ton, 1000 kilograms, the load for ten guys is 100 kgs, and for 20 guys it is only 50 kgs. 50 kilos is a weight a professional mover lifts like a feather even today. It is nothing. Just today I did hammer curls at the gym with 40kg dumbels. So we just have to open up a bit and think and then we realise that all those “impossible” deeds were not impossoble at all for the acient egyptian pros.
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Kwamla,
Essentially, my personal opinion on whether aliens exist is irrelevant. The point is that alien astronauts theory/idea about Egypt, or any other culture, has nothing to do with aliens. It’s about today’s people ignorance and elitism about the past, and about the knowledge itself: because “we” don’t know or understand something, it has to be beyond human thought, it has to have a superior, alien, etc. origin. Especially if it originated in a non-European setting.
Its whether you believe Western Science with its many multi-disciplinarian areas of research has uncovered everything there is to know about the nature of the world we live in.
I do NOT believe in it. That’s one of the main points of my post: we don’t know everything. There are so many things yet to be explained and discovered. We don’t have answers to all the questions, and I don’t think we’ll ever have.
Does that necesarilly mean the answers are esotheric or that they involve aliens, time travelers, etc? Shouldn’t at least all the other theories and explanations be proved wrong?
And this obviously includes the created fictitious past world it has labelled as “Egypt”. Which I am sure you would concede never existed 10,000 years ago.
Shoot me, but yes, I do believe that Ancient Egyptian culture(s) existed. If there’s a compelling proof that proves otherwise, I’d love to hear it.
You have a certain non-intellectual arrogance I’ve noticed for labelling something you have little or no knowledge of as “pseudo-science”. This, in itself to me, is not very “scientific”, “logical” or “rational” on your part.
Actually, no. Pseudo-science is not about the implications and answers. It’s about the method. If you fail to use scientific method, you’re doing pseudo-science. Your answers mihgt not be esotheric or “controversial” at all.
As for informing myself on the subject, I am informed on the subject. That is the point: you can’t really say much about the things you know nothing about, both regular science and alternative explanations. That’s why pseudoscientists in all of the fields are never experts in said fields. They know alternative explanations but they don’t know the actual methodology or science behind it.
For example, some claim this image is proof that Akhenaten and his daughters were aliens:
So, in short, to understand what is unexplained and what needs more proof, you have to a) know the discipline in question and all of its discoveries, and b) to know its methodology. Only then you’re able to say: hey, this is strange. Hey, this doesn’t make sense/doesn’t match our hypothesis. Etc.
You’re assuming you know, without question the make up, of the ancient Egyptians when their own depictions of themselves show them to be interacting with beings with, what we recognize as, animal or bird heads?
I’m assuming that Egyptian art wasn’t realistic. And we have solid proofs of it. But what does interactin with antropomorfic beings with bird heads has to do with aliens?
Is it possible that they might be more offended by traditional Western Science’s insistence that these were merely “stylised” pictures and not actual man-animal hybrid beings?
It’s true I can’t be sure of what Ancient Egyptians would find offensive. But from out point of view, it is offensive, because we do it today because we don’t believe they were capable of building pyramids, or whatever we don’t think they were capable of. Whether they think it’s offensive or not is irrelevant; what’s important is that it is offensive in our context.
Plus, you rarely hear this sort of things about, say, Ancient Greeks, and there are so many things we don’t know about their culture or how they did something. I mean, for example, ane Ancient Greek proposed a theory that Earth revolves around Sun, while others believed it’s the other way around. How did he do it? Obviously, aliens told him; there’s no way that he could have known something like that, especially since it goes against empirical observations.
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If it was aliens, it would have been cool if they showed us humans how to do something besides make really big piles of rock.
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If you people really believe in this alien crap then you’re all messed up in the brain. THERE”S NO SUCH THING AS ALIENS!!! ONLY WESTERN BS!!! The ARM AND GOVERNMENT ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS CRAP!
Now…
There is PROOF (I wish I could find it, but I can’t) that those so called aliens weren’t aliens at all. They were BLACK AFRCIANS!!! Westerners ( I’m putting it lightly) want the world to believe that freaken ETs came down from somewhere and build the pyramids and design those aircrafts. That’s not true for god sake people. Westerners don’t want to accept the FACT that BLACK AFRICANs were the first to do this. And someone mention that the egyptians are the creators of egypt and egypt only. That’s funny. I’m going to leave that as that.
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Eurocentrics/white supremacists also question how the ancients of Rapa Nui erected those massive, monolith heads facing the ocean, or how the Aztecs and Incas constructed those hills that resemble animals when viewed from above – yet, they DON’T question how Stonehenge came to be built. Eurocentrics/white supremacists believe that only they were/are capable of grand feats – NOBODY with darker skin can POSSIBLY do ANYTHING better than they! 🙄
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@ Cynic
I’d think that may be more true of a hypothesis than a theory. A theory is an established principle that’s been developed in order to explain an aspect(s) of the natural world. A theory should be based on repeated observation, testing, and should incorporate facts and laws, as well as predictions. It is not supposed to be just any “crazy” idea that someone comes up with.
Even a hypothesis is supposed to be a specific, testable, prediction about what you would expect to happen in an experiment or study. It also must be testable.
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King,
You’re right. Maybe “hypothesis” might be a more accurate term. But alien astronauts as an idea cover many aspects, and deal with many different things, so maybe theory IS more accurate term to use?
But if everyone’s ok, maybe Abagond should edit the post and put “hypithesis” instead of “theory”?
Sepultura,
To be honest, Stonehenge IS questioned and various esotheric explanations have been offered. But Stonehenge wasn’t questioned the same way Rapa Nui, or Aztec culture or Egypt were questioned. Nobody (as far as I know, and I might be wrong) thought aliens were needed to help those poor, prehistoric people. But it’s interesting that the locals in previous centuries did think Stonehenge had a strange origin.
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@Mira & King
Yes, you two are right about the theory vs hypothesis situation. However, i still don’t believe this whole alien thing falls underneath pseudoscience, no matter how ridiculous it seems.
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It’s not pseudoscience because it might sound ridiculous to some people. It’s pesudoscience because it doesn’t use scientific method to come to conclusions.
Like I said, the conclusions don’t have to be controversial/esoteric at all. As long as you don’t use proper scientific method, you’re engaging in pseudoscience.
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Oh, and about the image (Hieroglyphs at Abydos): they suspiciously look like a helicopter and a submarine. Why would aliens use XX century vehicles?
Plus, why would anybody put images in hieroglyphs? Hieroglyphs are not pictograms.
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I really am amazed at some of the comments here:
And this….
And finally this…
These statements are all based on ignorance, mis-information and indoctrination. And this is not simply because I say so! Its more, much more than this.
Its because I know enough about this subject and have seen and accumulated enough contrary evidence to convince most cynics. NOT SKEPTICS!!! Skeptics are those types of people who DO NOT WISH TO KNOW ANYTHING… they wish to remain or stay submerged wallowing in their own sea of ignorance which suits them just fine…. Except they want and insist that everyone else should jump in and wallow with them too!!!
Now…someone who is just cynical on the other hand. Lets say perhaps a scientist or investigative researcher might very well – employing tried and tested scientific methodology, as Mira is at pains to point out – discover and upturn evidence or information that may lead them to question their otherwise, initial, cynical view point. And there are numerous people who fall into those two categories who have done this.
Which is why when I read statements like this from Mira:
I am left wondering why this is not reflected in your post? Or should I just accept and take your word for it. Where is that non-pseudo-scientific methodological analysis you enthuse so elegantly about? Can anybody see it? Can anyone else comment on perhaps where I might have missed this?
While your pondering that in my next post I’ll introduce some REAL scientific evidence and investigative work thats actually been carried out in this area….
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Ok…here is the first investigative presentation by a science enthusiast which I’ve placed here for a more easily digestible take on this subject of ET’s and the creation of Ancient Egyptian monuments…
I hope this is informative…
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@Bulanik,
Thank you for your slightly more informative comments.
One other thing to consider about the ancient Nazca lines and drawings is that many of them could only really be seen and appreciated from an ariel view in the sky. That is, the view by someone flying in a plane or helicopter would get.
So the obvious question to ask here is:
Why would an ancient peoples go to such lengths and trouble to create these lines and beautiful drawings if they were never really going to see them anyway? (remember they didn’t have these flying machines then)
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There is no scientific proof of any kind of extraterrestrial involvement or visitations. None! By REAL scientists. Men with tin foil hats don’t count.
I agree with Mira. Westerners weren’t able to fathom how cultures that they deemed inferior were able to design and create such marvels such a long time ago. Archaeology has still unanswered questions, but no actual scientist worth his/her salt would ever offer aliens as the answer, because there is no PROOF to support that.
Same with Area 51, healing crystal, homeopathy, astrology and all kinds of concipracy theories.
And on the contrary, sceptics want to know, they just don’t believe any bullshit unless you have scientific PROOF.
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In regard to that last video clip….There maybe some parts which are suspect or glossed over but overall I think this is well thought out, imaginative and detailed historical science presentation. Its challengingly factual and funny as well. – No mean feat!!!
This 2nd video clip focuses on an Ancient Aboriginal rock painting found in Australia. It tells of Reptilian ET and UFO encounters thousands of years before Europeans, apparently, knew about this part of the continent… They shouldn’t be represented in these drawings (rock painting is NOT STYLIZED!) but they are?
http://www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/x68cy5Secret space 2 part 6 – Alien Rock painting by Realvworld
http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/bradshaws/introduction.php
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Kwamla,
Its because I know enough about this subject and have seen and accumulated enough contrary evidence to convince most cynics.
I am not sure about this. What you know is an alternative explanation , but you don’t seem to know much, if anything, about the discipline/science you want to criticize. Before you can offer your criticism, you have to know at least some basics, the methodology, the history of science, the epistemology… which, as far as I can tell, you don’t know much about.
Lets say perhaps a scientist or investigative researcher might very well – employing tried and tested scientific methodology, as Mira is at pains to point out – discover and upturn evidence or information that may lead them to question their otherwise, initial, cynical view point.
Yes, well, that’s how science evolves and that’s how new discoveries are being found. There’s nothing shocking about it; it’s a normal way science evolves. I advise you to read Kuhn’s The Structure of Scientific Revolutions.
I am left wondering why this is not reflected in your post? Or should I just accept and take your word for it. Where is that non-pseudo-scientific methodological analysis you enthuse so elegantly about? Can anybody see it? Can anyone else comment on perhaps where I might have missed this?
Where? In pointing out that Egyptians were the ones who built the pyramids? If there’s a satisfying scientific answer otherwise, the burden of proof is on the people who want to prove it.
While your pondering that in my next post I’ll introduce some REAL scientific evidence and investigative work thats actually been carried out in this area….
Ok, let’s see them.
But, for the last time: whether aliens have built the pyramids or not is not the point of this post. The point is that the only reason we think they have is because we don’t think Egyptians were capable of doing that.
There are unexplained things in other cultures, European cultures, but nobody’s first reaction to that is: oh, those were the aliens!* Why? Because of the western modernistic ignorance, that’s why!
*- Ok, strictly speaking, sometimes it is. But for “some” reason, people are more quick to believe the alien hypothesis when it comes to Egypt than some European cultures.
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Bulanik
Firstly, of course, this idea can be seen as an expropriation device used to map out an alternate history by saying people like the ancient Egyptians were no more than uplifted primates. (Romans not included, naturally.)
Exactly. That’s the sort of attitude I called “modernist elitism”, and it has its roots in colonialism.
Even just from my practical (and over-simplified) standpoint, I disagree with that, as my experience of construction and building materials makes me think that the monument-building methods used by the ancient Egyptians required standard engineering and masonry techniques, such as ramps and barges, to execute. These methods (and tools) are far from exceptional: they need competence, persistence and care to use, not extra-terrestrial genius.
This is true. Plus, we (today’s people) just don’t know as much as we think we do. It’s not about the pyramids, really, it goes for simple things, too. Modern humans don’t know how to make stone tools people used in paleolithic time, for example. You don’t have to look for pyramids to find an example of a past technology we know nothing about and can’t use today.
I don’t know how viable “ancient astronauts” is as a theory – we can’t prove they didn’t exist, can we? Do we really know what images depicted on ancient artifacts or monuments are meant to show, or what we should conclude from seeing them, do we? Who knows if the half human/half animal creatures so often represented were not genetic experiments?
You’re right. We can’t prove they didn’t exist. But when searching for a scientific explanation, Occam’s razor principle should be used: do not add additional conditions if you really don’t need them. In this case, aliens are additional condition that comes out of nowhere and it isn’t supported with any proof other that we don’t understand certain aspects of ancient Egyptian culture. We could equally claim those were time travelers from 20th century (after all, we can clearly see there’s a helicopter, and a submarine there- why would aliens use those things?
As for the half human/half animal breeds. Genetics hardly works in a way of creating a creature with a human body and an animal head. Plus, most of the Egyptian weren’t presented in one way only: you see them presented as fully human, or human with an animal head and certain attributes, or fully animal, or as a symbol.
So this makes me wonder more about the story teller than the story. I think people tell stories for their subliminal enchantment, to be awed.
The myths are interesting subject for research. They are quite complex and there are so many theories about the way the originate and why. And we aren’t quite sure about it. What we do know is that myths aren’t to be taken literally, even if they talk about something that really happened.
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Well, you know what? The truth is that we don’t know much about ancient Egypt at all. Seriously. But that’s another story.
As for Serapis, he was a deity in the Ptolemaic period, which is quite late… Thousands of years of Egyptian history come before that.
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The idea of ancient astronauts has a religious component. There also an idea that man was brought to earth.
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Oh…is that so!!!…Well I guess this extensive scientific research project, which is still on going, probably doesn’t count then…
http://www.starchildproject.com/dna2011march.htm
Time to wake up and stop being so ignorant!!!
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You are embarrassing yourself. Even if the skull truly contains unknown DNA there is no reason why we should assume that the DNA came from another planet.
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@Maria,
It would serve you well to take note and listen to what these scientists are saying about this discovery of an ancient Alien Skull. Here is a video presentation to help you. Maybe you could apply some of that scientific rigour your so keen to stress. I’d be interested to know if you believe they too are involved in some form of pseudo-science.
Perhaps you could break it down for, as you say, someone like me who knows nothing about the scientific methodology to be able offer any criticism.
http://www.starchildproject.com/?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4da43b700c6a696c%2C0
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@eco
It might assist you also to do a bit more than just superficial reading of my comments. If thats possible of course…
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@ Kwamla
Is there a reason why you call Mira by the name “Maria”?
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@bulanik: animal-human hybrid? just because they made pictures showing those? well, I guess there were winged men living in USA early 1800’s because the native americans sculpted and painted them? Seriously, show me a shred of evidence that there were aliens and I buy that. Show a shred of evidence, anything, a helmet, piece of spacecraft, plastic from 4500 BC, anything at all…
@kwamla: you serious? I mean, aliens… One thing we must try to avoid at all costs is to under estimate the acient humans. The celts had a lunar calendar around 500 BC that is still one of the most precise in the world. Mayas were far more advanced in mathemathics than any european in the medieval times. The greeks did stuff we only know so little of. The acient phoenicians knew that the whole world is constituted of partyicles so small that we can not see them (which we now call atoms). The list goes on and on.
Aluminium was invented in 1830’s but the chinese used it as a decorative metal in 100’s BC. They used batteries in Babylon to galvanice metal objects 2000 yrs ago. Arabs knew the modern phographic tehcniques back in 800 AD. The pirates of 1600’s had a first employer insurance policies in the world and they also had a retirement funds. They were also the first to have one man/one vote democracy in the western world. You knew that? Yeah, they really did, which was also one reason why they were so hated by the powers.
So why we know so little of all the tehcnologies of the acient past? Why we know so little of the machines, theories, science of the acient egyptians and greeks and phoenicians? Ask the christians…
The christians destroyed most of the Alexandrian library which had most of the knowledge in the acient world. They burnt the collections of Pisitratus, some 300 000 papyrus rolls of science, and the library of Athens, which had most of the knowledge of the acient greeks. The christians wanted to wipe put all the knowledge that preceeded them and they pretty much did so. That is a historical fact.
So, no aliens, just a bunch of very religious christians who destroyed the diagrams and plans, calculations and drawings of all those marvels of acient Egypt.
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@Gen
This is obviously a mistake on my part. Feel free to point out anymore I might have made.
However for the rest of the majority of people posting here insisting on dismissing the reality of ancient Alien interaction with humans. Please stop pressing the denial button….This is not a mistake!
For anyone who is in the least bit serious about engaging in this discussion stating that you do not believe this to be a past reality is NOTopening up yourself to examining this as a possible reality. Its also as, Mira has pointed out, not very scientific. And given the present knowledge we have of the vastness of our Universe, illogical and irrational too. All it simple calls is for a suspension of present conditioned belief systems.
Something Bulanik has made some excellent comments about in her last two posts.
Now…if you really wish to examine and make up your mind about some real scientific evidence – not just speculation, conjecture or uninformed opinion then please stop ignoring evidence in front of your eyes. I have already provided an important piece of key evidence. Here it is again:
http://www.starchildproject.com/?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4da43b700c6a696c%2C0
This is a short 9min video presentation where evidence for – THE STARCHILD SKULL a genuine 900-year-old bone skull found in Mexico in the 1930s is discussed.
You don’t have to agree or believe BUT you should at least examine valid evidence contrary to your existing held beliefs.
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Aliens…Wow. Ok, all those that believe in ET’s should read the book Of Water and Spirit by Patrice Malidoma Some to gain an understanding of what some of you believe are aliens from outter space.
As far as viewing the lines in South America and other “ground works” in the U.S. we had many many skywalkers in the Americas that could walk the sky for whatever purpose. We, today, believe we can’t therefore we won’t. I am sure some my find the skywalker impossible, but I am sure of you that don’t believe that skywalkers existed you do believe Jesus and Peter walked on water. Wouldn’t walking the sky be the next rung up from walking on water?
Mr. Some’s book may enlighten many of you as to who the “aliens/ET’s” really are.
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To Sam:
The christians destroyed most of the Alexandrian library which had most of the knowledge in the acient world. They burnt the collections of Pisitratus, some 300 000 papyrus rolls of science, and the library of Athens, which had most of the knowledge of the acient greeks. The christians wanted to wipe put all the knowledge that preceeded them and they pretty much did so. That is a historical fact.
That depends upon who you believe …
Plutarch says it was Julius Caesar…
Gibbons says it was the Christians..
and Gregory Bar Hebræus says it was the Muslims.
http://ehistory.osu.edu/world/articles/articleview.cfm?aid=9
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@uncle milton: well, the christians did destroy Serapeium and its library, which Caesar did not do. The muslims came centuries after the fact and burned some of the remains, but also preserved a lot, which is why we know almost anything of acient times. Arabs actually preserved most of the stuff we have fronm acient world and we got them from there during medieval times, crusades etc. I understand that many christians today are ashamed of the behavior of the founders of that religion but it was what it was.
Scientist and philospher lady Hypathia was sliced, ripped apart etc. by the christians just because she was the leader of the Serapeium and the library.
One very good example of how little we know of the past: just few years ago they found complete set of roman surgery tools. The historians did not know were they any good so they showed them todays doctors. Lo behold, it is almost identical tool kit of todays surgery. It also included a very thin needle, in which there were more needles, in which there were a even smaller needle, hollow also, made out of gold. It is an instrument for eye surgery, still in use today.
And if we need to remind our selves how quick things can change in history, that there is no normal gradual development, just remember that it was one doctor who got the idea that perhaps doctors should wash their hands between patients in hospitals. After that childbirth deaths became exception and infections began to dissappear. And this happened in 1800’s!!
And even more recent history: the mighty Soviet Union, the Emoire of Evil, crashed in couple of weeks. I mean it just dissappeared, just like that. I remember those days pretty well, living right next to that. It just was gone in few weeks. No aliens needed.
Is there life in universe? Of course there is. It is simply a mathemathical must. But did aliens really drop on earth and mingled with the folks and built the pyramids etc. I do not think so.
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@Amenta,
Thats an interesting book – “Of Water and Spirit” by Patrice Malidoma – and one I, since I’ve already read it, would also recommend. At the very least it provides an insight into a world outside of traditional western science which indigenous native peoples have always been aware of. One where discussion and experience of Aliens or ETs had a more common acceptance and reception. The histories of ancient peoples is littered with such references.
Someone I could recommend you might want to listen to is:
Dr. Delbert Blair
Whose videos you can find all over the internet. This video from the early 90’s shows him talking about his first hand experience and detailed knowledge of ETs and their connection to our past history.
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@Hathor
This is indeed very true Hathor and might find what Brother Amun-Re Sen Atum-Re’s (Polight) has to say about the concept of heaven of interest.
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I think this video is quite relevant to this discussion: Ancient Egypt and ancient astronauts. But to understand this you need to appreciate the role religion has played in obfuscating this knowledge.
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@bulanik: Sorry, my bad. I got mixed.
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Finally, here is a highly respected authoritative source of information for those who are really interested in exploring this topic:
Bashar, channeled by Darryl Anka, talks about ancient extra terrestrial visitations.
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@Bulanik
“…I just want to learn about stuff, the more I learn the less I know!
And we should question methodology, no?…”
In my opinion, you’ve made some of the best comments here. For someone who is inquisitive enough to ask questions, to explore and do her own research on subjects like ancient Egypt. You’ve raised quite a few valid points which even the resident archeologist Mira has, apparently, no answer for!
And it should be noted that those valid points you raise have nothing to do with whether you believe the subject of “Ancient Alien Astronauts” to be true or not true.
Bulanik
This is what I recognize as the methodological, scientific approach to pursuing questions and answers to a subject we may or may not know something about. Something which has been sadly missing from Mira’s responses even though she claims to be a chief proponent of this approach!
@ Sam
In all your writings here you seem to be struggling to convince yourself that “Ancient Alien Astronauts” is something you do not need to even explore. But you’re not alone in your response or re-action. And I don’t want to appear to be singling you out, or Mira or anyone else for that matter. This is quite a common response.
But you have to ask yourself the question where has this conditioned and irrational response come from? Could it be fear of an unknown?
Or is it just a basic common sense reaction to something we already know a lot about? Or should that be:… think we know a lot about?
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@kwamla: I think I am not a person who is not too much affraid unknown. Like I’ve told here before, when I was younger I did put myself in situations and surroundings totally alien for me, met people everybody else warned me about, ate foods, spent time and learned about everything that was alien to me.
Just couple years ago I took on the whole goverment on subject of political corruption with an open letter published in our biggest newespaper, pretty much accusing them all of corruption. I took some flak over it but was prepared to face the music in the court if need be, but fortunately not one politician dared to answer or take action. It could have happened. I did not know before hand.
My take on the history and on this subject comes from this:
Modernistic ethos has conditioned us to think that we are the most advanced, civilized and developed humanbeings ever. Personally I do not think so. I think we have some mighty good inventions, like electricity and modern medicine, some science etc. But as a whole we are not that shining examples of humanbeings.
I belive that the people of the past, be that acient egyptians or others, were much more advanced and civilized than we give them a credict for. I firmly believe that they were capable doing things which for us look like amazing. One good example is the Stonehenge. When modern day engineers and scientists tried to put up just one, 1, stone similar size of those, they could not do it. When modern day engineers and builders tried to match bridgebuilding of the roman legions, they failed despite the help of modern machines. It is also good to remember that bunch of guys sitting on a market square on an small greek island calculated the circumvent of the earth almost excately and created the basics of modern mathemathics.
As for the moving and lifting huge loads, practise as power lifter gives some indication how much professional craftsmen can handle. Also being an academically educated artist, some knowledge of sculpting gives a little indication how big stones one man can move and handle. Based on those I conclude that there is nothing in acient Egypt that those people could have not made or done by themselves.
Also, the very idea of progress as gradual and steady process is false. In fact, inventions and ideas that have changed the world have come suddendly and the huge changes in history have happened quickly, almost at once. Like the fall of Rome or Soviet Union. In both cases the signs were there but when the fall came, it still shocked everybody with its suddenness and totality.
I personally believe that if there had been aliens from another worlds in earth, they would have left something behind. Thus far, nothing has been found.
As for the natzca lines, they might have been similar project as the Great wall of China. It marks some kind of border but it was not much of wall against the armies beyond. It was, how ever, a project which binded the chinese together and gave them an idea of being One. We simply do not know about the natzca lines what they were and why they are there. They could have been just for fun, like the huge statue of Crazy Horse they are trying to sculpt in Black Hills, or the crop circles.
True, I can not prove that there were not aliens on earth some thousands of years ago who kick started some civilizations, but nobody can prove otherwise either. The idea of alien civilization visiting earth is not daunting for me nor it would shake my beliefs or life too much. I am a firm supporter of the basic idea that reality id always stranger than fiction.
So to answer to your question shortly; I just believe that acient people were clever enough, strong enough and civilized enough to do anything we see and know that has been done.
Hope this answer clarifies my thinking to you.
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@Kwamla I know of both Dr. Blair and Bro. Polight. And I am sure you are aware of Dr. Phil Valentine’s views on ailens as well. However, I don’t agree with their stance on ET’s/Aliens. I believe these beings as expressed in Of Water and Spirit are not necessarily from outter space, but right next to us in another dimension if you will.
These beings are akin to Seraphim or Adawees as they are named in the book Voices of Our Ancestors by Dhyani Ywahoo . Even though given validation by Dr. Valientine, Dr. Blair and Bro. P.O.L.I.G.H.T. i cannot agree with them.
Addiditonally, I believe that those that project that these ET’s/Aliens need spacecraft to reach here, then we are actually projecting our lacke of understanding on travel from one universe to another on the socalled aliens.
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@bulanik: Ok I try to clarify myself here a bit.
Just recently I saw a documentary of the great pyramids of ancient Egypt. In that documentary the guys who have spent their whole lives studying these said that one dynasty did them. Basically one family. In very short period of time in historical sense. Sure, they had mathemathics in which to base their plans but basically some one got the idea and had the resources to do that and did it.
If we think the western so-called civilization which still dominates the world today, it got its start for real only couple hundred years ago, trough the colonizing fo the world. Granted, Columbus had gone over the big pond three hundred years before that with the rest of the lot, but the western hegemony did not come yet then. And the vikings and perhpas others had crossed the oceans before him.
In 1500’s and even later the japanese and chinese thoughed Europe as the most westernmost peninsula full of plague, dirty poor white trash who was just fighting and going for war among themselves. And just few hundred years later, the west dominated the whole world.
It is true that the civilizations do not spring up suddenly, they evolve, but something or someone usually gets things really going on. It takes time to reach the peak but the progress is not steady nor it is controlled or planned. Human civilizations do not, in my mind, evolve like nature does. They are man made and can be done or un done as easily. It took just 11 years for Alexander the Great to create one of largest empires in the world and kick start the hellenistic cultural revolution across much of the “known world” but the whole empire collapsed with him too.
Legal systems are tricky. Legal codes do not mean justice. Some american indian tribes had much more advanced “legal codes” than the white europeans in moral sense. They were much more humane, they aknowledged equality, rights of individuals etc. Among some tribes nobpdy had the right to tell others how they should live. In european legal codes that was the whole point: forcing the majority to yield to the will of the few.
Another good example: the british celts had their own laws before christianity were they stated that when a girl was 12 she had the right to decide about her own life and had legal rights to her posessions. Those laws also granted the rights for women, how and when to get divorce, how to take care of the children born out of the marriage etc. It was all there in the 500’s. Then the chirch forced Britain to accept the roman legal code which made all the members of a houshold subjects of the father or oldest male. The children and women had no more legal rights at all, they totally depended of the male head of the family. Now, how long it took before we got back to the rights the celts had 1500 years ago in their laws? Was that progress?
Basically what I am trying to say is this: human civlizations do not progress smoothly, steadily nor they do not progress all the time nor in some cases at all. In the histories of civlizations there is progress, set backs, collapses, leaps forward etc. Just look at the progress USA had in the 60’s and compare it to the situation of today: there are political forces in the country who try to turn back the development and have done so in economics hugely. For the last 30 yrs the real income of average americans has been steadily declining but the income of the richest has been increasing. That is not development but regression to the situation of early 1900’s.
As for the science, Albert Einstein thoughed his theories in his head. He did not observe space or anything. He just calculated and thoughed about the stuff. Then he published his ideas and challenged the astronomers and astrophysicists to debunk them. And Isaac Newton was an occultist and spent much more of his time in that field physics but we never hear that.
Hope this satifies you. I gotta run now.
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To answer the debate on the progress of civilization, I present to you…
Punctuated Equilibrium.
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[…] post: Ancient Egypt and ancient astronauts « Abagond This entry was posted in Uncategorized and tagged ancient-egypt, ancient-monuments, […]
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@bulanik: the greek mysteries teached just that: we are the One. all of us and everything is the One.
For many cultures the so-called sprit world was and is not a separate un-earthly space but a part of the existing reality, right here and right now. The hegemony of christianity in the west,and the teachings of the church (you shall yield all this stuff to the church and let them take care of these things) made the separation and science, in this sense, very often followed the suit, making the divide even more so. I personally do not.
And on that note, it is very funny that all the renowed greek philosophers were pagans. 😀
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Sorry for disappearing from this thread. I will reply to your comments soon.
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Ok, first things first: The library of Alexandria. For all we know, It was destroyed by Christians.
Now, we aren’t completely sure WHEN the library was destroyed, but the best guess is at the end of 4th century.
As for Caesar, as far as I know, he was in Alexandria conquering and burning stuff, but at least some of the library material was saved (I don’t know much about these events, but the library didn’t cease to exist. Caesar lived in the 1st century BC, btw).
Muslims? You mean, Arabs? They came much later. It is unsure whether some traces of library survived till their time.
In a way, the destruction of Alexandria library is seen as a metaphor for the end of antiquity and the beginning of the middle ages.
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Bulanik,
When I look at ancient Egypt, its sciences, artistic and architectural techniques and hieroglyphic systems, somehow I am not able to fathom their developments. I mean ‘development’ as in stages and gradual process. It seems to me that many of the achievements of the earliest dynasties were not surpassed and were only equaled – later.
It just appears so because Egypt has a long history and people generally hear only about the big events. Before the Unification of two Egypt and the Old Kingdom, there’s a long history of development. It didn’t just appear out of nowhere.
But here’s where it gets tricky. Egypt lasted for thousands of years. Not all of those years were the time of glory. There were bad times, crisis and problems in the country. You know of the conventional separation og Egyptian history into the Old, Middle and New kingdom? Between each of these (and later), there were the so-called “Intermediate periods”, marked by problems and divide. There was no centralized rule during these periods, especially if you look at the north vs south. Also, those were days when foreign rules ruled, and generally periods of chaos (more or less, obviously, it’s not that simple). But it’s understandable that you need time to build your culture after such chaotic times, and often you need to start from scratch (well, more or less).
However, from my limited knowledge of ancient cultures, it’s more comprehensible to me where and what ancient Greek civilization, for example, sprang and grew from.
Huh, really? But here’s what happened to Greece: Greeks came and had a well known bronze culture called Myceanean Greece. Then the iron age came and much of it was transformed (some people even claim lost in chaos, but it wasn’t really that simple). Then, we have archaic Greece and the rise o polis, and then, BUM!- 50 years or so (no more!!!) of what is known as “the classical Greece”, the most famous period in Ancient Greek history (and the first one the most of the people think when they think about the ancient Greece). After that brief time in the 5th century BC, things got complicated and polis was never the same again. (Technically, the classical Greece period lasts from 5th century to well into 4th century, but they were under war and heavy problems after those 50 years).
So, basically, what is considered the most significant time in ancient Greek history, lasted for about 50-60 years.
Of course Greek literature is better preserved, and this makes things easier to follow. The ancient Egyptians, on the other hand, seem quite different. Why does that seem so?
I don’t know what you mean by “different”. Please, explain.
I then found out that Manetho was an Egyptian historian-priest from the Ptolemaic era
Yes, and that’s the main problem with him. He lived thousands of years after the events he was talking about. So he had to use other sources and materials.
Now, I think I know the difference between myth and legend. But, I am not sure how to separate those 2 things in the Pharaonic context, and I really wouldn’t know how to approach, separate and slice those myths and legends from the history of What Happened.
Myths are one of the most interesting, but the most complex and difficult issues to study. There are various theories and approaches on the study of myth and why myths are used and why do they exist in a culture. Scholars disagree on it, but they do agree that the purpose of a myth isn’t to describe the actual events or to serve as history. It doesn’t mean there aren’t historical events incorporated in myths, but their purpose aren’t to serve as history as we today would define it (study of the past).
I am trying to make sense of how a civilization reaches an apex of achievement with such rapidity.
Like I said, it wasn’t rapid at all. I don’t know where you got that impression.
This makes me ask, how much knowledge has been lost, destroyed and hidden BEFORE it has even had the opportunity to be misunderstood?
It’s an excellent question. And here’s the answer: A LOT. You wouldn’t believe it. We don’t actually know that much about the Ancient Egypt, not really. Most of the things were lost, because of various reasons. Basically, we know next to nothing about the actual life in the Ancient Egypt, because all we found, are the buildings and material culture of the richest groups of people (rulers, temples, etc). They made only a small percentage of all Egyptians, and we know next to nothing about them.
Imagine the only people that are known are the celebrities.
What I believe is that striving for ‘simplicity’ can conflict with other essentials.
Ah, but Occam’s razor isn’t about the simplicity, though I know it’s often interpreted that way. It’s about not including new conditions and variables without necessity. And that when you see you need more and more and more new variables to explain a phenomena, you might start thinking about revising your theory altogether, because chances are you’re doing something wrong, and that there’s something fundamentally wrong about your main assumptions.
AFAIK, scientific method is not without its dysfunctions!
Of course it is. And even if it isn’t, you are constantly in the problem of not being able to be objective, which is yet another thing.
But you can’t do science without scientific principles. You may change them, question them, criticize them and find new ones, but skipping them altogether is not a way to go.
For example, I read once that the planet Uranus was spotted many times before it was recognized as that. They didn’t know what they looking at, so they didn’t name it.
The discovery of Neptune and Pluto are even more interesting. They were found based on mechanical predictions and not observation.
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Kwamla,
I understand you feel strongly about the issue of aliens and ancient astronauts. But like with any other issue, the burden of proof is on you, not us. Engaging in name-calling and (subtle) ad-hominems is not moving this discussion.
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Bulanik,
I am so sorry if I sounded snobbish or angry or patronizing. That was certainly not my intention. The last thing I wanted is to make you feel wrong or bad about your curiosity. Sorry if it sounded that way, I really am. (In my defense – and it’s not much – I wrote it in a hurry and just wanted to address some issues; I wasn’t thinking about the way I was addressing them).
There’s nothing wrong about not being an expert, and there’s certainly nothing wrong about non-professional interest in Ancient Egypt or any other subject. In fact, it’s a great thing and it shows intellectual curiosity. It’s always a positive trait. So please don’t feel discouraged in your attempt to learn more about this subject. Once again, I am sorry I made you feel this way.
When I asked you to explain where you got the impression about the rapid development of Ancient Egypt, I was honestly curious about it. I admit, my wording do seem quite bad, but I was, and still am, curious about it. Is it the way articles focus only on certain aspects of Ancient Egyptian culture, that make it seem like a rapid development? Or is it because the timeline is rarely explained? I am really curious.
What did you imagine the ancient world was like before you entered the field of history and archaeology?
Let me see… it all seemed quite exotic and exciting (not just Egypt, but also Greece, Rome, etc.) I’d totally buy esoteric explanations and I preferred them to the rational ones, because rational seemed boring. When it comes to Egypt, I saw it as a uniform culture, and I didn’t really think about the thousands of years of its history.
This probably led me to another of the other false impressions I am under, which is that Greek literature is better preserved than the literature from ancient Egypt.
In a way, it is true, but it’s not that simple. For example, some extremely important periods in Greek history, crucial for understanding the development of polis and religion, among other things, is completely void of written sources. We must rely on the archaeology alone for those.
I am wondering that if what I have attempted to learn about this history is so wrong then should I leave it alone, and close down all curiosity and interest in searching for a picture of the ancient past, leaving that stuff to scientist and experts only?
No, you shouldn’t shut your intellectual curiosity just because you’re not an expert in a field. But I guess you need to understand things are sometimes oversimplified when they are presented for the general public (not just in archaeology, in any discipline). You must also understand there’s always some agenda and that there are usually no black/white answers.
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Really?…what is the point in providing “Proof” or real evidence to people who are either blind, in denial, or for some reason too fearful to engage with information provided directly in front of them?
As an archaeologist are you in the habit of covering up fossil evidence or just ignoring it when it doesn’t fit in with the established view of what fossil evidence should look like?
Now is that an example of a subtle ad-hominem from me or an attempt at provoking a serious response to this debate?
Because to date no one has seriously challenged any of the evidence I’ve put forward so far. Including you Mira…
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Kwamla,
Really?…what is the point in providing “Proof” or real evidence to people who are either blind, in denial, or for some reason too fearful to engage with information provided directly in front of them?
This isn’t a moral issue. If you want your opinion to be heard, you must present a proof. Calling people “blind” or “in denial” is not helping. It’s not the way to make an academic discussion. But wait, you are not into academic discussions anyway, right?
As an archaeologist are you in the habit of covering up fossil evidence or just ignoring it when it doesn’t fit in with the established view of what fossil evidence should look like?
The way you wrote this paragraph proves you have no idea what a fossil evidence is. For the record, archaeologist might deal with the fossil evidence from time to time, but most of the material evidence we find isn’t fossil. Just for the record, only a living organism can become a fossil. Pyramids and other buildings, art, etc. are not “fossil evidence”. Plus, not all organic remains are fossils.
Because to date no one has seriously challenged any of the evidence I’ve put forward so far. Including you Mira…
The thing is, you didn’t put ANY evidence so far. You must try better, since, well, the burden of proof is on you. At the same time, nobody can prove you wrong; you simply can’t prove the stuff you’re saying wrong.
Say I claim pyramids were built by hamsters from Whirlpool Galaxy. Now, prove me wrong.
You can’t do it; it’s impossible to prove wrong something like this. If I want to push my claims, the burden of proof is on me: I have to prove that the pyramids were built by the alien hamsters. Saying: “those were the hamsters, now if they weren’t prove me wrong”, won’t do.
But it’s not the main point here. The main point is that, in case you didn’t notice, this post wasn’t about the aliens at all. It’s about the Eurocentric belief that Ancient Egyptians couldn’t possibly buld the pyramids, because they were just not smart and capable enough of that. The very Eurocentric belief that you, if I may to say, fully support.
Bulanik,
Unfortunately, I don’t have speakers on this computer so I can’t watch videos at the moment. But thanks for sharing; I will watch them as soon as I can.
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Forgive me Mira, but for some strange reason I made the erroneous assumption that in written exchanges, such as these, people actually read each others previous posts before responding.
You seem to have a blatant disregard for reading or acknowledging most of my previous posts. If you had bothered to read any of them you would find that most of your last comments about evidence and proof had already been addressed. Mira, why do I find myself continually having to refer you to my previous comments and provided links? – This is what I mean by blind!!!
From your last comment I see that you may not have speakers which might prevent you from viewing some of the video links I posted but not the web content.
Does the archaeological find of a scientifically verified Human/Alien hybrid skull qualify as an ancient fossil in your line of reasoning? Does this not qualify as evidence of probable past Alien/Human relationships?
In your ongoing discussions with Blulanik you’ve already indicated we don’t really know that much about ancient Egypt so on what basis or grounds should we rule out the involvement or interaction with Alien beings? Particular when these same beings are reflected and graphically represented in a lot of their drawings and pictures?.
Even you your self presented a picture of the Pharaoh Akhenaten who, as you say, some people claim is evidence of Alien interaction during the reign of the Egyptian Pharaohs. What you neglected to mention though was that evidenced referred to the size and shape of this Pharaohs head. But wait…is this also not similar to that 900 year old skull found I just also directed you to?
Mira, its this type of factual evidence I am saying you are being consciously or otherwise in denial or blind to.
So just to re-assert here this is more than simply the Eurocentric belief that Egyptians were incapable of building pyramids by themselves. Its about acknowledging the greater heritage of knowledge, society and its peoples (who where African to begin with) that is intentionally being covered up and made to fit in with nonsensical stories about the Darwinian evolution of Human species on this planet! When this clearly does not fit in with the available scientific and ancient cultural evidence.
Mira…please go back and try and read some of my earlier posted links for a better understanding…
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I believe the following thorough, detailed, comprehensive and scientifically conducted account of the construction and purpose of the Great Pyramid, at Giza, Egypt, Africa, is particularly needed here. The following provides a great summary of what it has discovered:
After watching this 1hr 40 min documentary it should leave you in no doubt why I maintain statements like this from Mira are, sadly, grossly misinformed and profoundly ignorant of any scientifically based research:
And this video only explores the science we do know about their construction…
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Thank you Bulanik. Its good to see you have at least remained open in your analysis. Which has afforded you the opportunity to be confronted with information you otherwise may not have known about.
As some commentators here have shown this can be a rare quality to successfully keep hold of!
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Some of what has been posted here is total dribble
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The time has come to be judged 2012 were will you be
were will you stand. You will find your GOD was a lie
become Free
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That link to the video: “…The Revelation Of The Pyramids…” can also be found in my comment here:
http://kwamlaonfb.wordpress.com/2011/02/04/youtube-black-people-does-the-earth-belong-to-blacks-have-they-been-invaded-david-wilcock/#comment-153
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Notice how “ancient aliens” is only applied to the Americas and Africa.
Africans built Pyramids. Africans sailed to the New World as proven by Ivan (The Great) Van Sertima and Cheik Ante Diop. They imparted their knowledge to the Americans who too built pyramids of their own. X-Ray images show that the Giza Pyramids are too step Pyramids at the core.
But we are expected to believe Aliens did it because we can’t fathom it. And we would be able to had white people not raided the Library of Alexandria, Timbuktu (and the whole of Africa for that matter), and burned 3,800 books in the Americas alone.
No one can give you a straight answer as to how, say, the greeks built the acropolis. Nor the Stone Heads of easter Island, but no one says it was “aliens” on them accomplishments.
It’s racism. That simple. Those of you that disagree can go fuck yourselves.
Much of this got started in the ’70s, when Diop and Van Sertima began their work. When they proved Egypt to be a Black civilization to the chagrin of whites, suddenly this “annunaki” shit appears. Zechariah Sitchin and Erik Von Daniken, neither of whom know “sumerian”, manage to make millions on false nonsense. Meanwhile, Black mummies found in Egypt are destroyed. The Rameses II was irradiated to look white, though it was Black as coal at first (as per Van Sertima). Melanin dosage studies proved it’s Blackness yet these studies weren’t published. More lies from the pink people.
That’s the only reason why this “aliens” shit has proliferated like it has. It’s hilarious too. These whites talk all this trash about these “annunaki” coming back in 2012 and that was a dud. A bunch of racist fools.
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https://hyperallergic.com/470795/pseudoarchaeology-and-the-racism-behind-ancient-aliens/?fbclid=IwAR2Zzw8geAoiFw2FSoVXoqQlMroEiEZIHL9yETglxucPo0znWp2LF4fEPbw
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@ Herneith
That was some article! Thanks for sharing.
This passage really hit home:
The History Channel has not been worth looking at for a very long time.
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Von Däniken wasn’t even original with his pseudohistory. The Science fiction/horror of H P Lovecraft was based on the idea that the gods are aliens, and that the best we could expect of them was indifference
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The Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariots_of_the_Gods%3F
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Just learned this year what a racist H.P. Lovecraft was.
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Everything written before 1945 is racist
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@ Alberto Monteiro
That’s a sweeping statement. Are you including writers of any race in your pronouncement?
Lovecraft was an exceptionally racist piece of work. There’s been a lot of conversation about that in Speculative Fiction circles the last few years, resulting in the redesign of the statuette for the World Fantasy Award.
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@ Alberto Monteiro
The Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica, by Isaac Newton is not racist. In fact doesn’t even speaks about races, or humans or even living creatures!
Your sentence is clearly false! Try again…
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@Solitare: That is exactly what I am talking about. Especially when Nnedi Okorafor won an award for her work in Speculative Fiction. Nnedi Okorafor is Nigerian-American refused the award that is a bust of Lovecraft. She started a campaign to have the award redesigned and I can understand why she did this especially if recipients were going to be people of color. It’s ashame because I enjoy a lot of his work.
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@ Mary Burrell
It can be a real struggle to reconcile appreciation or enjoyment of an artist’s work when you find out bad things about their life. I think it is possible to separate the two, but it’s not always easy. I’ve had trouble myself over this same issue.
One way is to think that we are all imperfect beings but sometimes the Muse makes use of us to create something magnificent, that the artist is just the flawed vessel through which the Muse sings.
I love the new WFA statuette, it is really beautiful and I’m so glad they changed it.
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perhaps the nephilim legend from the bible has a similar origin?
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They originally came from Uranus.
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Newton was racist, too. For exemple, he didn’t think any temple was built before Solomon’s
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chronology_of_Ancient_Kingdoms_Amended
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yeah ok have a good one or whatever
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There is definitely a racist element to the “ancient aliens” hypothesis the way white people present it. They consider the people primitive so when they’ve produced things white people consider impressive they find the idea that “aliens did it” to be more congruous.
HOWEVER, and this is the big however, the idea of extra-terrestrials does not originate with white people. In fact, I’d argue that, in many cases, they do not get the sense of what’s being related by indigenous people in symbolic language. I remember a youtube channel years ago created by a young lady from the Congo who hated the fact that Africans adopt other people’s religions. One day she revealed in a video that her elders taught that her ancestors came from the stars. People were incredulous in the comments. So from that perspective, the “ancient aliens” are simply the remote ancestors of black people, whom they’ve revered previous to white spiritual conceptions.
The Dogon of Mali say that society was established by extraterrestrials too but people get fooled that they weren’t human because they say the “Nommo” were amphibious. However their amphibious nature was spiritual not physical; they straddled both realities (the “liquidness” before manifestation and the “solid” physical) and so were able to teach profoundly since they understood the deep foundations of existence. In fact, they were also called “Teachers” and “Monitors”.
In Ancient Egypt, where there are many parallels with the Dogon, they had the concept of Nunu (sometimes Nu and Nun) which kind of aurally suggests “Nommo” as well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nu_(mythology) It says, “The Ancient Egyptians envisaged the oceanic abyss of the Nun as surrounding a bubble in which the sphere of life is encapsulated…The Nun is the source of all that appears in a differentiated world”.
They’re not talking about literal water. They’re talking about a realm that’s “fluid and watery” conceptually, where reality is not “solid” and only possibilities abound. This would have made little sense to materialistic science of the West in the past but in the era of quantum mechanics the analogy is clear. Physicists do now have a model of reality where nothing is decided and properties are expressed only as possibilities. One interpretation of quantum mechanics is that an actual reality only congeals when a “observation” is made by a consciousness. It is said to “collapse” the possibilities into a particular outcome. This brings us to a second symbol of ancient Egypt which is the Eye or Ra. It is an apt symbol for the consciousness that observes the waters of Nunu. The Dogon Nommo are ancestors who “mastered the waters”, those symbolic waters.
Now there’s an interesting connection to a word in English that came via Latin. The word is “numen” (again, not too far from “nommo” and “nunu”) and from it we also get the word “numinous” [of our relating to a numen]. According to dictionary.com ( https://www.dictionary.com/browse/numen ) numen means: “divine power or spirit; a deity, especially one presiding locally or believed to inhabit a particular object”. Furthermore, the etymological origin is believed to be from the Latin word “numen” which is a “nod, command, divine will, or power”. Recall the interpretation of quantum mechanics wherein it takes a consciousness to collapse the possibilities (waters of Nunu) into a solid reality and that Nommo are deity-like ancestors that are “masters of the waters”. The connection to a “nod” or “authoritative decision” as suggested by the similar-sounding Latin word, numen, is automatic. It also suggests something interesting about the origin of language.
Anyway, my point was that the Dogon were not talking about literal non-human fish-people but gifted ancestors just as the Congolese lady was saying. However, I’m sure they were quite willing to let symbols serve their obfuscatory purpose when dealing with people of unclear intent. I also see some mention of HP Lovecraft. Yes he was racist AF but do read some of what he wrote. In light of the above discussion read the short story, “At the mountains of madness” ( http://www.dagonbytes.com/thelibrary/lovecraft/mountainsofmaddness.htm ). There are some interesting Nommo-like amphibious “Ancient Ones” in that story. Read between the lines about their exploits, according to Lovecraft, and about how the protagonists came across this information and what effect it had on them.
Over the years I’ve come to appreciate that white people do not hate us for superficial reasons. I thank them for their hate because it really made me wonder. The “powerful”, “enlightened” among them who co-opt black Egyptian symbols like pyramids and the eye of Ra and a phoenix / bird / Bennu holding “E pluribus unum” [of many one] understand all too well that we have it in our hands to avenge their millennia of cruelty. The dam holding justice back is our oppression and IGNORANCE; it is therefore critical that it continues even while some symbolic victories are allowed. Particularly brilliant is the redirecting of our natural feeling for spirituality towards their religious ideas which are custom-designed to encase us in a cocoon of fear and obsequiousness! I must admit, that is a masterful deception. Hat tipped. However, the percolating of the light of truth, even up through the impenetrable fog, is an ominous sign.
It’s like a section of the Apocryphon of John from the Gnostic Christian scriptures says:
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Is it the length of my previous post that triggered moderation [I kept finding more to say, lol] or is it because the topic is old? Just curious. You can delete this current post. I was just wondering.
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@ Origin
I think comments get thrown to mod if they have more than 2 links.
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@ Origin
A comment with 3 or more links gets thrown to moderation. It is a characteristic of spam.
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@ Origin
The Dogon of Mali are quite deep. Those are interesting concepts.
Your comment reminded me of the few Malian films I’ve seen. Even when they dealt with mundane issues, there was a poetic and otherworldly aspect to the dialogue and plot development.
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Thanks all for the answer re the moderation.
@Afrofem
Yeah, what seems like fanciful myth is actually communicating how they see the cosmos. Once you understand this you realize how many movie and book story-lines are actually African concepts retold, rewritten, reflected in a funny mirror or made literal.
Lovecraft was clearly “inspired” by this because the allusions are obvious once you know. Gnosticism’s Yaldabaoth and the Dogon’s Yurugu are also very close as far as their roles are concerned. They’re both beings that are incomplete in a sense and go on to cause chaos because of being able to perceive/intuit only a part of the whole.
We don’t generally see how pervasive it is because we pretty-much have cultural amnesia. Therefore we often cannot see the “borrowings” or allusions though we might, at times, have a vague sense of connection without consciously knowing why. Furthermore sometimes we’ll be told that African ancient civilizations were not natively African so we shouldn’t bother to look there. However, with many of these matters, the “elite” are obsessed.
This is a benben stone that could serve as an Egyptian pyramid capstone:
Benben
This is the reverse of the American Great Seal:
Great Seal
This is inside the UN General Assembly:
UN
From that natural perspective from across the hall the space clearly evokes the same eye-capped pyramid with the wooden panels suggesting the pyramid and the large lighting fixture suggesting an eye.
Why would a people who have proven to be very practical-minded in their pursuit of power be so concerned with symbols that should be meaningless given the understanding of reality that is currently promulgated? The only reasonable explanation for me is that it IS in the pursuit of power and they consider those symbols relevant to that aim.
However, the mainstream foundation of knowledge about the nature of existence that the current global culture takes for granted as being true almost forecloses on discussing what this could be. It is indeed part of the cleverness of the trap because people, and black people in particular, are taught to think only within allowed parameters that serve the interests of an oppressive order. If you don’t espouse certain views then you’re not “progressive”, “scientific” or “modern”. These thought-blocking “guardrails” promote compliance like the lobotomization of any threatening humans in the movie “Planet of the Apes”.
It is the same bedrock of “knowledge” that allows for endless competition to greedily accumulate the most “objects”, destruction of the life-sustaining environment, and reduction of human beings to chattel. It ends up being destructive even to those who subscribe to it because the truth sits unmoved; when the body dies the cancer dies. Therefore, in growing without concern for the whole the cancer is “progressing” to nowhere but its own destruction. So perhaps it is a deficient viewpoint that does not take everything into account.
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@ Origin
“…we’ll be told that African ancient civilizations were not natively African so we shouldn’t bother to look there. However, with many of these matters, the “elite” are obsessed.
[…]
Why would a people who have proven to be very practical-minded in their pursuit of power be so concerned with symbols that should be meaningless given the understanding of reality that is currently promulgated? The only reasonable explanation for me is that it IS in the pursuit of power and they consider those symbols relevant to that aim.”
In short, to appropriate the ancient symbols of power is to declare themselves the only true and powerful humans from antiquity to the future.
The thought that the subjugated would rediscover their own history and imagine a future free from oppression is nearly unbearable to the current order. I see play out in several ways:
🌀 The intense backlash of White, male science fiction fans against the rise of Black science/speculative fiction and fantasy writers. They have gone to great lengths to wrest the idea of a future/past or alternate present where Black people thrive from official recognition.
The reactionary “Sad Puppies Movement” surrounding the Hugo Science Fiction award in 2015 gamed the award in their attempt to turn back the clock. According to a Slate article, the Sad and Rabid puppies have:
https://slate.com/culture/2016/04/sad-and-rabid-puppies-are-trying-to-game-the-hugo-award-shortlists-again-in-2016.html
🌀 The State of Pennsylvania recently banned books and [physical] mail from reaching prisoners. They claimed to have taken extreme measures to prevent “drugs” from entering prisons. Many suspect one reason for such draconian measures is the State’s desire to curtail the majority Black prisoners access to books and education that just might enlighten them about their own history.
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/books-through-bars-pennsylvania-prisons-k2-security-john-wetzel-20180913.html
Continued in the next comment….
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🌀 The deep storage of looted African artifacts in European museums. The British have particularly extensive stashes of millions of items carted away from all points of the globe. European museums have steadfastly refused to return the looted artifacts. Many of those items have never even been displayed.
A portion of those artifacts came from Benin City in southern Nigeria. According to early foreign visitors to this capitol city:
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/mar/18/story-of-cities-5-benin-city-edo-nigeria-mighty-medieval-capital-lost-without-trace
Among the many treasures of Benin City were the intricate bronze statues and plaques that adorned the city.
AN00020716_001_l.jpg
The Benin City was looted and razed by British soldiers in 1897. They blew up the earthworks and burned everything else. The modern state of Nigeria has petitioned for the return of the Benin City treasures since 1960. The British museum has offered to “lend” the looted items back to the Nigerians, but balk at repatriating what they stole from the people of Benin.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/06/20/bringing-home-benin-bronzes-nigeria-open-loans-rather-permanent/
How is that for appropriation?
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@Afrofem
“In short, to appropriate the ancient symbols of power is to declare themselves the only true and powerful humans from antiquity to the future.”
Exactly!
The other aspect to it is that what the symbols represent is believed to be the truth [though they don’t openly admit it] and they try to “control” it as they do everything. The deeper African view of the universe seems to be spiritual; everything ultimately issues from a united spirit. So, for instance, associating certain imagery with the architecture of the United Nations general assembly hall is, I think, their way of trying to get the “force” to work for them. Then when you see what has been done to us: having been colonized [from even as far back as Ancient Egypt] or taken captive into various nations; the opposite program has been put into effect so that disarray and confusion prevail more so.
I found this excerpt from a book “Muntu: African Culture and the Western World” which can be previewed at google books (stuff in square brackets was inserted by me):
Firstly, after reading that I thought of the “Word” being made “flesh”, as spoken of in Christianity and considered that in this African conception it applies to the “human being” generally not one particular person. So perhaps, the torture and death of the Christ actually represents the death of fully actualized humanity and establishment of a vicious, bestial order.
Secondly if you’re extremely greedy, being convinced of the existence of an underlying spiritual reality immediately raises the question, “How do I control and own it”? As you indicate, they’ve taken away many of the cultural products of other civilizations so it’s quite likely they have things in their possession that have never been displayed in public.
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But yeah, on the original topic, “ancient alien” doesn’t have to mean “not human” as there are groups that claim that earth was settled long ago by people from elsewhere. If that’s true then only a process of decline could explain our state now. Both myth and science propose “evolution” though myth tends to suggest the changes were for the worse (end of a “Golden Age”, loss of knowledge, reduced lifespan etc.) while scientific consensus is that humans are relatively recent and evolved from a less intelligent state to where we are today.
If you made me pick I’d bet that people have been on earth for a lot longer than is accepted by mainstream science. It’s funny because I started with the accepted understanding, because of education and what you grow up with, but over time I’ve become more open-minded. I mean, mythical giant beasts larger than buildings are nonsense until you find dinosaur bones right?
(On that note, preserved soft tissue has been found inside dinosaur fossils shocking scientists who did not expect proteins to survive 68 million years. Nobody thought to look before Mary Schweitzer did so and found collagen that had remained flexible! Then they started looking at fossils which they’d dated from 145 – 200 million years ago and found preserved protein in half of them. There is a suggestion that iron could have had a preservative effect but that discovery still makes me look askance upon the standard timeline.
https://www.livescience.com/41537-t-rex-soft-tissue.html )
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@ Origin
Hmm. The concepts you laid out are far deeper than the overview I got in college African cosmology class years ago. Thank you for a lot to chew on.
“…if you’re extremely greedy, being convinced of the existence of an underlying spiritual reality immediately raises the question, “How do I control and own it”?”
The short answer may be, start a major religion, spread it far and wide and be prepared to kill non-believers. Then you can control the narrative about the nature of spiritual reality. You can also own the hearts and minds of believers.
“…there are groups that claim that earth was settled long ago by people from elsewhere. […] If you made me pick I’d bet that people have been on earth for a lot longer than is accepted by mainstream science.”
Some people in the Western metaphysical community are convinced of the existence of Atlantis and Lemuria (Mu). They claim that both were very human and technically advanced. Both supposedly fell prey to their own biological and technical creations and wiped themselves out. These societies were supposedly at their height over a hundred millennia ago.
It always seemed far-fetched, yet like all legends, perhaps there is a speck of truth in the stories. Human societies may stretch out much further in the past than bones and skulls can prove at the present time.
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