“People will always be racist” is something you hear in America. The same place where you also hear, “Racism is dead”.
There are at least five things wrong with this statement:
- It excuses racism. It gives it a pass, making it seem like nothing can be done about it. But plenty has been done. For example, white people seem to be way less racist than they were 50 years ago. And it is not simply a case of them hiding their racism better: 44% voted for a black president in 2008. So progress can and has been made, to a degree few imagined not so long ago.
- Even if true, so what? People will also always rob, murder, rape and eat too much. Do people use that as an excuse to do nothing about robbery, murder, rape and overeating? Of course not. If racism is wrong, then why should it be any different?
- Racism is not natural. The feeling of “us and them” seems to be common to most human societies, and so it seems to be natural. But that does not mean racism – hating or looking down on others because of their race – is natural too. Malcolm X discovered that in Mecca. The Ancient Greeks and Jews divided the world into an us and them but used language and religion, not race. Even today, Jews come in all colours. If racism is not natural, then it does not have to be.
- Racism is an unhealthy frame of mind. I think we all know people who make themselves feel good by putting down others. We understand that deep down they are unhappy and insecure. But for many people that is how racism seems to function: “At least I’m not a …”
- Racism in America is still at dangerously sick levels. Much higher than in most societies. How to tell: by studying past genocides. There are eight stages to a genocide. Most human societies are at stage one (dividing people into “us and them”), but in regard to blacks, America is still at stage three (seeing the other as not fully human). Seeing blacks as “other”, as “them” (stage one), is “natural”. But for whites to see them as less than fully human, for the police to use military tactics on them, that is sick, that is not natural, that is not common to most human societies, not against people of one’s own society. It is the very sort of thinking that leads to genocide.
Genocide is not all that common, despite what some Americans seem to think. Egypt, for example, has been civilized for 5,000 years: not one large-scale genocide. The people living there now are pretty much genetically the same as the people living there thousands of years ago. The same goes for Italy. But not America. White America’s wiping out of Native Americans will be there in the archaeological record for thousands if not millions of years to come.
See also:
I don’t think people will ALWAYS be racist, but I do think it’s very, very difficult- to the point of impossible- to stop this once it’s developed. The fact racism doesn’t have to exist can’t make it go away.
So, WHAT can it make go away? On a larger scale. HOW to successfully make it disappear?
I have no idea. All I can talk about individual, personal efforts, but I am not sure these are enough.
Speaking of which, the common white medicine: interracial marriages and mixed kids doesn’t seem to work. I support IR relationships with all my heart, but the fact people choose to marry and have babies outside the race doesn’t make racism go. It might help in some individual cases, but not on a larger scale.
As for the Ancient Egypt… I am not sure they are a good example of genocide-free zone. I mean, they did conquer, kill and whatnot.
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I agree with Mira. Even if we look at Brazil, where many people are multiracial, there is still racism against those with darker skin. It seems people generally have this tendency to create an ‘us’ and ‘them’, be it based on race, gender, nationality, sexuality, etc… And that is what leads to issues. I am not saying people should be made not to notice any similarities or differences, but people should not grow frightened of and hateful towards the perceived ‘them’.
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Hey Everyone! I am also a believer that racism is going to take a Very, Very long time to go away…and the only way to accomplish this is by brainwashing…
We have to remember that racism is deep-rooted and that there are people who WANT to be racist…that’s why it’s still here. So as long as people like that exist, racism is going nowhere.
And to add-on to Iris’s statement…South America, India, Africa, China, Australia…just about every where has a “darker” variety of people…and in just about all those places the implantation of racism is there, planted that the lighter is better. Hmmm…why is that? (I have my thoughts about that…) They may not call it “racism” but that’s what it is…in my opinion, of course.
Peace.
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Mira:
“Speaking of which, the common white medicine: interracial marriages and mixed kids doesn’t seem to work.”
Haha! That is totally the “common white medicine.” And no, it doesn’t work at all. The people usually don’t change, the kids of such mixed marriages often undergo racism, and everything gets passed to the next generation.
I think the answer is the media. It sounds like a crazy statement, but if we’re somehow able to share lines across color lines–not just the same old stories of just the majority race–perhaps that could raise the empathy and respect level.
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Nationalism seems to be one way for people to unite…it introduces another “us against them mindset”. In Jamaica, colourism is a problem we have also but once we step off the island, we are as one and stand together.
I’ve seen this with the American expatriates and soldiers when I lived in Europe. I had made friends with a few soldiers…on the base, it was like living in the US, you would never know you were in a foreign country, same BS.
When the soldiers left the base and went into town, racism and division seemed to fly out the window once the white Americans realized they were not univerally loved by the Germans. The black and white Americans became very tight (us against those Germans)
Anyway, I agree that racism/prejudice will be around for quite sometime because in most societies, something will always be a divider …whether it’s skin colour or hair colour.
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bigWOWO,
I think the answer is the media. It sounds like a crazy statement
I don’t think it’s crazy at all. I mean, it should be, since media is not real life, but then again, it has a huge influence on people. More than people want to admit it anyway.
With a racism-free media (but truly racism-free, not the “PC tolerance media” we have today), things would be better, I think. People are influenced by media; it’s quite a powerful machine.
* PC tolerance media = we still dislike them, but we’d put a few of them on the news and TV show so they could stop whining and we don’t get called racist.
Linda,
Yes, something is always a divider. In my part of the world, that is ethnicity. In some other cultures, it’s religion. While each of these things has its own mechanisms, they all basically work the same way, and have similar malicious effects on people.
Actually, the only “cure” for racism I see is to substitute it with something else, with another way to divide people. It won’t help much and it’s not much of a cure, but it’s the easiest way to get rid of racism (and worry about the horrible effects of new oppression later).
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Abagond,
I think that you may be missing out on a significant benefit of accepting the “people will always be racist” argument: it reflects reality.
Why is this important? The world’s worst dystopian societies (somewhat paradoxically at first blush) have their origins precisely in the pursuit of an unobtainable utopia.
Often, the medicine is far worse than the malady. Marxism in all of its various derivations is a contemporaneous example of this.
Witness the brutality of the Bolsheviks and the Khmer Rouge, both of whom believed that human nature was not immutable, and thus a perfect society could be constructed once sufficient bones had been ground into mortar.
Accepting that things will always suck a bit helps to prevent such horrors.
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“So, WHAT can it make go away? On a larger scale. HOW to successfully make it disappear? ”
I think the only way is total integration. Complete social and cultural integration. I think if whites made more of an effort to break out of our comfort zones people from other groups would be mostly receptive to that. I think the self-isolation of other groups is a defense mechanism that whites could make unnecessary if more of us went through a period of racial awareness.
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America does not have a racism problem. America had a prejudiced problem and that is never going to go away.
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When someone tells me “people will always be racist”, I am usually inclined to reply with: “No, people like YOU will always be racist”. Such people typically don’t have the mental capacity to come to understand that not all people of a certain race are how they are portrayed in the media or by blatantly racist people, and even if most of them ARE that way, it has NOTHING to do with their skin color.
I have met white people who have no problem with black people and are friendly towards everyone who is friendly towards them. These are the kinds of people that I like. At the same time, I have met white people who are blatantly racist but try to hide it with stereotypes. For example, I know this one guy who can never seem to maintain a conversation with me for a duration of anything longer than 10 minutes and NOT bring up the fact that I am black, whether directly or through some backhanded stereotype. People like him are OBSESSED with race, but they won’t want to admit that they’re racist and don’t actually like black people. Instead they hide behind their stereotypes and mild epithets and say “Well.. It’s not like I’m burning crosses on your lawn!” as if that rhetoric holds any merit with me.
It’s sad, really. I know that these people do not view me as equally human as them, but they will not say that because they know their true colors will be exposed.
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Mira said:
“Actually, the only “cure” for racism I see is to substitute it with something else, with another way to divide people. It won’t help much and it’s not much of a cure, but it’s the easiest way to get rid of racism”
Yes, it’s true. That’s why I mentioned “Nationalism” …it is a form of substitute…it brings divided people in one country together. Of course, the downside is when it is taken to extremes (Nazi Germany)…and it only works while people perceive a threat from “outsiders”.
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Excuse me. *America does not have a racism problem, it has a prejudice problem.
Some ppl may think those are the same thing or argue that one helps cause the other. I’d agree with you on the latter point, to an extent. Either way I believe the in-group/out group mindset is natural. The hate that sometimes comes from that is not the problem tho. The stereotypes that stem from this mentality is the real culprit causing prejudice, even in the least racist souls. Just take a look at this video. Do you honestly believe ALL of these ppl are consciously exercising hate or race supremacy?
This is America’s problem
http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/e/16711680/wshhA5yGj42eclUn99k6
Hope the embed works…
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I don’t think racism is all about the hate or supremacy. Some people, yes, but others… I don’t think other (white) people don’t think about it much, if at all. They’d ask themselves: “do I hate blacks?” and for many, the answer will honestly be “no”. But they are still brainwashed by their culture and racism is an integral part of it… It goes “naturally” with growing up in a racist culture. You don’t even notice it, and by the age of 5 you’re already a racist individual.
Remember those kindergarten kids who had to choose a good and a bad person based on images of identical looking kids, except for skin colour. Many chose the darkest doll as the “bad” one. And when their parents watched, they were shocked, some even cried. I don’t think any of these parents consciously taught their kids to be racists, I don’t think any of them told their kids that they should hate black people, or even that black people are bad.
But the kids picked up the racism anyway.
So on individual level, as a parent, I think you should take some measures and teach your kid anti-racism since the day one. To ACTIVELY participate in anti-racism. But in order to do this, you must be an active anti-racist yourself. Saying “skin colour doesn’t matter, it’s the person that counts” means nothing if you don’t set an example.
If you tell your kid that racism is bad, but if you don’t have any black friends, if you call blacks “those people”, if you shelter the child with your body when you pass along a black man on a street… then you’re doing it wrong.
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Mira said: “if you shelter the child with your body when you pass along a black man on a street… then you’re doing it wrong.”
Is this an obvious universal truth, or perhaps wishful thinking that ignores crime statistics?
Long time civil rights activist Jesse Jackson once said,
“There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then look around and see somebody white and feel relieved…. “
If a black person has these concerns, then why would it be improper for a non-black person to also have these concerns?
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@Mira
Your entire comment was an example of practicing race supremacy, albeit in its implicit form. I guess if you put it that way then, yeah… the United States is a white supremacist society. The only way to truly get rid of that is to do what Linda said, replace it with something like nationalism. Which can probably only be done with with what Nez suggested. Brainwashing.
Maybe I am just being cynical, but if we are talking about racism in its implicit form, then I agree with the title of this post. People(America) will always be racist.
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Is this an obvious universal truth, or perhaps wishful thinking that ignores crime statistics?
I’ve heard people complain about it (that they’re sick of whites sheltering their kids when they see them). But I admit, I don’t have any personal experience with it.
On the other hand, I highly doubt every single black person is on a mission of harming a white child on the street….. I mean, come on. Isn’t that a school example of paranoia?
So, wait… If I ever got to US, I sure have to run whenever I see a black person on the street. Thanks for letting me know! Too bad my friend (whose host family was black) didn’t know that…
(For the record, nothing bad happened to her; she had a much better time than her first family, which was, in lack of a better term, white trash).
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Your entire comment was an example of practicing race supremacy, albeit in its implicit form.
In which way? I did put more emphasis on what whites need to do, but not because they’re “superior” to blacks, but because they are more powerful as a group/they’re majority, they control media, etc.
The only way to truly get rid of that is to do what Linda said, replace it with something like nationalism.
True. But it’s not a cure in the true sense of the word, because it’s just replacing one form of oppression for another. I am painfully aware of bad effects of nationalism, and… no, it’s not a solution for having an oppression-free country. But if you want to simply get rid of racism and nothing else, then yes, replacing it with another form of oppression is a good way to go.
(Arguably, that’s how racism came to be in the first place… There’s was religious hate at first, then it got substituted with dividing people based on skin colour/race).
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@Mira
But they are still brainwashed by their culture and racism is an integral part of it… It goes “naturally” with growing up in a racist culture. You don’t even notice it, and by the age of 5 you’re already a racist individual.
Remember those kindergarten kids who had to choose a good and a bad person based on images of identical looking kids, except for skin colour. Many chose the darkest doll as the “bad” one.”
To me this would suggest that white supremacy is apart of American culture. I mean, why would kids see the light doll as being “better” than the dark one? Isn’t better just a synonym for superior?
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Mira:
“With a racism-free media (but truly racism-free, not the “PC tolerance media” we have today), things would be better, I think. People are influenced by media; it’s quite a powerful machine.
* PC tolerance media = we still dislike them, but we’d put a few of them on the news and TV show so they could stop whining and we don’t get called racist.
”
Yes!
Or even just sharing stories. I’m reading Sherman Alexie now, who is a FANTASTIC writer, but really he is the ONLY big American Indian writer. If you’re an average American reader, you don’t get the same kind of diversity of American Indian stories as you will get with White stories. If they diversified the stories of underrepresented people, there could be more empathy for underrepresented people.
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Yes, I do think white supremacy seems to be an integral part of American (and not just American) culture. But I don’t think hating people of different race is, nor that anybody who doesn’t “hate” is free from racism.
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@Mira:
Have you ever heard the statement: “anti-racist is a codeword for anti-white”? I’ve heard it around on the internet quite a bit.
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Mira said: “On the other hand, I highly doubt every single black person is on a mission of harming a white child on the street….. I mean, come on. Isn’t that a school example of paranoia?
So, wait… If I ever got to US, I sure have to run whenever I see a black person on the street. Thanks for letting me know! Too bad my friend (whose host family was black) didn’t know that… ”
Framing the discussion in terms of “every” and “all” is a bit absurd and doesn’t reflect common real-world risk assessment. It also dodges my question.
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“Have you ever heard the statement: ‘anti-racist is a codeword for anti-white’? ”
😀 “anti-rape” must be a codeword for “anti-men” then.
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@Daegus
I’ve heard that crap b4. Some e-nazi randomly inboxed me sum racist propaganda vid w/ that title on youtube.
_________
I’m sorry, but I am not willing to wait for white America to stop being prejudiced. Hatred of other races can certainly be tamed, but I don’t think a prejudice free nation is ever going to happen. Laws can’t help either.
Institutional racism(prejudice really) is a problem in the US bc Black people don’t collectively attempt to infiltrate/ create institutions that can effectively combat the prejudice we face in this society. Begging racist American whites to end their ways is futile. All we have is ourselves.
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????
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As long as “certain people” will continue to think of themselves higher or greater humans than other people racism will still be there until Jesus himself comes back, because I don’t see racism stopping any time soon.
I will never understand the obsession of some people in this world in “categorizing”, like people were some kind of objects instead of considering them as humans which people need to remember is the “only… if not unique race” God created.
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White guy (or Russian guy) here.
I think it’s time we take the words of fictional senator Jay Billington Bulworth to heart:
“Time to end racism! lets all f**k until we’re the same color!”
in all seriousness though, racism is a new phenomenon. Take for example the Romans. as far behind in other areas they were (like slavery, imperialism, etc.) they at least were pretty good with their record on racism and such.
I hate racism. I wish it’d all end. I’m sick of seeing it period. I get a sick turn in my stomach when I hear people bashing interracial dating or black-on-black love or just anything. let’s all live in a world where we think skin color is as important as eye color.
okay? okay.
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I’ve got a suggestion for how to cure racism:
Space colonization.
Think about it. With a vast new dangerous frontier and with little or no human contact, people starting to live on other planets like Mars would need to start trusting each other which leads to getting to know people better which leads to ending stereotypes which ends racism.
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ha..ha..ha Serpentus I like your cure on racism
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Many good arguments. I think it’s in a way racism is natural in some form, but it’s destructive, and wrong if societies and people accept it. I myself admit Im a racist in many ways, but im working on getting less, somtimes its dificult. In many cases my racism is a result of lack of knowledge, in other words pure stupidity. That racism is often unintended. I discriminate and prejudge some groups intendently based on nationality and steriotypes: I refuse U.S. customers (they can sue you, and are unable to take care of them self), I don’t like french people (and love being unfriendly or only understand norwegian when I meet someone), I avoid employ Somalians ( my experience with somalian co-workers is bad, so I tend to think all are lazy backstabbers). I am Norwegian and do skiinstruction and mountainguideing in the winter, lumbering and landscapeing in the rest of the year.
The atitude I just present is typical in norway. A lot of “action sport” providers do not want clients from USA (most do not refuse them), and Somalians are that group of imigrants in norway who have most truble getting work.
Some somalians change name just to get to job-interviews.
In my society you have examples of some groups of imigrants who are very diffrent from norwegians in culture, the way they look and religion, but are highly respected and liked.
During the balkan war norway got a lot of refugees from bosnia and herzegovina. If you belive that racism is natural, bosnians and norwegians should not go good together at all. Bosnians speak their native language when they are together, keept their culture and traditions and are still muslims. But they mix and socials with native norwegians even they are very diffrent and not intergrated the way I understand many think its required to prevent natural racism.
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@ML
“During the balkan war norway got a lot of refugees from bosnia and herzegovina. If you belive that racism is natural, bosnians and norwegians should not go good together at all. Bosnians speak their native language when they are together, keept their culture and traditions and are still muslims. But they mix and socials with native norwegians even they are very diffrent and not intergrated the way I understand many think its required to prevent natural racism.”
You’ve piqued my interest. First of all, not ALL people from Bosnia and Hercegovina are Muslims. There are also Croats, Serbs, Jews, Gypsies and other ethnic groups in Bosnia.
How are Bosnians “not integrated”? What kind of things do they do?
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@ML
Also, I’m quite surprised. I thought Norwegians would be happy to have white immigrants. Being white, there is no way one can physically tell apart a Norwegian from a Bosnian or Hercegovinan. The only way is probably culture.
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I don’t think we can every fully exterminate racism because there are always going to be ridiculous people in the world. However, I do think that we can make society more fair so that racism is not the biggest issue. If you look at American society today, the reason racism is strongly prevalent is because the society is not for every man regardless of race. Realistically things will never be fair, but society can be set up as a more equal place in terms of racial issues.
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@serpentus
You right about that Bosnia and Herzegovina have diffrent ethnic groups, You have Serb-Bosnians and Croats and some other groups. Serbs are mainly Greek orthodox, and Croats mainly Catholics, Bosniaks are mainly muslims. More than halfs of the population in Bosnia and Herzegovia are Bosniaks (Bosnian muslims). When I wrote Bosnians I ment Bosniaks.
Bosnians are intergrated, but they still manage to be Bosniaks. They manage to fit in to the norwegian society and still keep there language, culture and religion. Balance. Other manage this to, but if you take other big imigrant groups like Pakistanians or Polacks and Baltics, they keep more for them self and it’s more tensions between them and norwegians.
Yes Bosnians are white, and its definitively easier to be white than black in norway. You can easy see if someone comes from Balkan, but maby not after some generations, and its harder to see any diffrence on a 25 year old one who have lived most off her/his life than a 50 years old.
You may can compare it with spread some mexican families around in Wyoming. In the start they be very difrent and everyone kan se on a mile distance they mexicans. give them 20 years and the diffrence are less, after 50 years maybe gone.
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@ML
“Bosnians are intergrated, but they still manage to be Bosniaks. They manage to fit in to the norwegian society and still keep there language, culture and religion. Balance. Other manage this to, but if you take other big imigrant groups like Pakistanians or Polacks and Baltics, they keep more for them self and it’s more tensions between them and norwegians.”
O.K. Bosnians “still manage to be Bosniaks” but “manage to fit in to the norwegian society.” O.K. well I have to point out that here in America where we have had a lot of experience with immigration throughout our history, it is usually by the 2nd or 3rd generation that people are fully integrated. The 1st generation are the parents for whom America is a vastly different place and culture than the Old World. The 2nd generation, their children, grow up speaking English in school and speaking their native language at home. Then, when the 2nd generation children grow up and become adults, they no longer have to speak their native language anymore.
Since English is used everywhere–business, television, books, etc.–the 2nd generation sometimes even forget their native language! Furthermore, 2nd generation children can end up marrying an American or someone who does not speak their native language. Perhaps the only way for 3rd generation children to continue speaking their parents’ native language is if BOTH parents marry someone from their ethnic group AND the parents continue speaking the language. But, like I said, English is such a dominant language in America, that it is safe to say there’s not much of a worry that another language will takeover.
However, some people still remember their ancestry.
For instance, you may have heard of “Little Italy” and “Chinatown” in New York City. Also, some street signs in Chicago are in Polish! Now, I’ve never been to New York, but perhaps Abagond can entertain us about the different ethnic groups that still cling to their identities
It also helps if you’re white. It’s sad to say this, but a fully integrated 2nd or 3rd generation white immigrant will be seen as more of an “American” than a black person whose slave ancestors date back to hundreds of years ago. Yes, I’m talking about the “American” whose ancestors came in 1920 from Italy compared to a black whose ancestors were brought in 1820.
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@ML
“More than halfs of the population in Bosnia and Herzegovia are Bosniaks (Bosnian muslims).”
Actually, it’s been 20 years since an official census has been done in Bosnia and Hercegovina. We don’t know exactly who lives in what or where. The war was pretty bad, and a lot of people were killed, moved, misplaced, and immigrated, so a census is a touchy sensitive issue with Bosnian politicians who want to maximize their power by appealing to their ethnic vote.
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@ML
A census was finally agreed on this year in Bosnia. I don’t know if it’s been done yet.
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@ML
“Serbs are mainly Greek orthodox.”
No, Serbs are Serbian Orthodox–although I’m not an expert on their faith. The Orthodox branch used to have a central figurehead or leader, like the Pope is to Catholics for all nations. The Orthodox “pope” was located in Constantinople and after the fall of Constantinope, the “pope” of the Orthodox branch was gone. Now, each country appoints its own Orthodox leader. For instance, Romania has its own Orthodox “pope”, Russia has its own Orthodox “pope”, and Bulgaria has its own Orthodox “pope.”
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“People will always be racist”.
Lazy ones and racists use this as an excuse fr their racism. Majority of people are not and will not be racists. That is a fact. You do not belive?
Put bunch of white kids and black kids into the same sand box, let them grow up together. If they go to same schools and stay in their neighborhood, chances are that they look outsiders more suspiciously than each other. Racism comes only later, once they learn about it. It is not inherited, not inside of you, not a bilogical thing. You have to learn it.
As a white guy I have learned a lot simply by travelling. Meeting people all over the world, all kinds and colors. That opens ones eyes very fast. It also forces you to meet your own inner demons and thoughts.
Are there bad black dudes? Yeap. But then again, maybe the worst guy I have ever met was a filipino who was selling drugs, child porn and kids. Are there black criminals? Yes, there are, but visiting Corleone back in 1980’s just for curiosity made it clear that in reality Godfather stuff is not that great at all.
You also learn that a black guy in New York is nothing like a black guy in Lagos. Black guy in London is nothing like a black dude in Nairobi. You meet all these different guys who are black and nothing in common. A guy from Togo is nothing like a guy from Mogadishu. Hell, in Lagos I met guys who were the same ethnic group but still hated each other! So what do you learn?? They are all individuals.
There is no “Them”. There is no “Africans”. No “Blacks”. No “Whites”. There are just people who are individuals.
You do not belive? When you hold hand of a seriously sick fellow humanbeing knowing that she/he is going to die soon and there is nothing you can do for that, and that person knows it too but just holds your hand as a human gesture, the last thing in your mind is: I could beat this n****r in IQ tests!!
When you see a smile in a face of children, no matter what color they are, just because you have helped them to set up a game or something, there are no races. There are no separate groups in constant war and hatred towards another. There are just humans. One race. One people.
We are told, teached to hate and fear one another. In USA you are teached to fear anyone. Including your neighbor. Get a gun, triple locks, alarm systems, surveillance, private security, panic rooms…
Susupicion. Doubt. Alarm. Stay alert. It is truly Them vs. Us. Today it has become: Me vs. Everybody else.
But “they” want us to belive that. “They” want to divide and conquer. Worst case scenario for “Them” would be that people, regardless of color and race and greed, would really start to work together. “They” would loose their powers. That is why “They” need fear, hate, racism, poverty, social injustice, religions etc. Who are they?
You know them: the guy who sends guys on suicide missions in the name of religion. The guy who says that we should hate those witha diffrent religions or belief. The guy who sends his army to another country for oil with an excuse. The guy who gets billion dollar bonus after he has run down the economy of his country. The guy who says that there are separate races of humans. The guy who says: Watch out! You can’t trust THEM!
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Hate to nickpick, it’s a great post, but most contemporary Egyptians are descendant from the Arabs who came over after Muhammad, sometime between 700 and 1000 CE.
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Thank you Serpentus for the comment about Orthodox church. Indeed, Serbs are NOT Greek Orthodox, but Serbian Orthodox. There are many Orthodox churches withing Eastern Orthodox religion, but they are regarded as the same faith.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Orthodox_Churches
Actually, it’s been 20 years since an official census has been done in Bosnia and Hercegovina. We don’t know exactly who lives in what or where.
I have no idea when was the last census. I know it was one in 1991, but back then most of the people were Yugoslavians. The situation is hardly simple as presented here. Furthermore, many people don’t know, but there are many Serbian refugees in Bosnia and Croatia (well, they are rarely talked about because of the main interpretation of Balkan wars in western media), but the point is, you can’t just guess a person’s religion or ethnicity simply based on the fact he’s from Bosnia. That was, well, one of the main reasons for the war… Several ethnicities living in the same territory for centuries.
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@serpentus and Mira, Sorry about that, Serb Orthodox. I don’t know why I said Greek orthodox. When you talk about Orthodox church you often talk about the Greek orthodox. And I have the impresion that Hellas and Serbia are quite close, witch was an issue for greeks when Nato bombed Serbia (in 1999?). To be honest I don’t know enough about christendom to know the diffrent between orthodox, protestants and catholics, so the thing in Ireland and UK between protestants and catholics I realy never have understood.
@Mira I first started to understand something about the Balkan, and the balkan war last year. its complicated, goes centuries back, so if you not from balkan you need to simplefy it. I find balkan history extremely intresting.
Its wrong to guess a persons religion based on where they from, but you do it anyway. Norwegians are officially protestants, but the fact is that only a handfull of people along the south-vest coast and some old people belive in Good.
I do think that Bosniaks are generally quite secular or moderate muslims. They get drunk and have random sex like any norwegian.
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ML,
Yes, Serbs and Greeks tend to be close. It IS the same faith, after all. But each nation has its own church with its own leader. It’s how Orthodox churches are organized.
To be honest I don’t know enough about christendom to know the diffrent between orthodox, protestants and catholics, so the thing in Ireland and UK between protestants and catholics I realy never have understood.
Well. The point behind most of the religious conflicts is not religion per se, or the differences. There are always other issues at hand; religion is just an excuse.
When it comes to UK- well, English- vs Irish, England colonized the Irish. They were there for centuries. But things are not as simple as that. Because Irish themselves are “separated” by religion: they are mostly Catholic, yes, but there are many protestants in the North. In another words: a perfect condition for a mess.
its complicated, goes centuries back, so if you not from balkan you need to simplefy it.
Indeed. People here can’t get a consensus on it, let alone outsiders!
I do think that Bosniaks are generally quite secular or moderate muslims.
That’s because they, along with other people in Yugoslavia, were Yugoslavians, not that long time ago. And Yugoslavians were atheists.
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Sam wrote:
You also learn that a black guy in New York is nothing like a black guy in Lagos. Black guy in London is nothing like a black dude in Nairobi. You meet all these different guys who are black and nothing in common. A guy from Togo is nothing like a guy from Mogadishu. Hell, in Lagos I met guys who were the same ethnic group but still hated each other! So what do you learn?? They are all individuals.
You do not belive? When you hold hand of a seriously sick fellow humanbeing knowing that she/he is going to die soon and there is nothing you can do for that, and that person knows it too but just holds your hand as a human gesture, the last thing in your mind is: I could beat this n****r in IQ tests!!
—
Sam, you REALLY get it. So many people don’t. Thank God for well-traveled, open-minded, intelligent people!
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good post.
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Oh, and even though I am cynical about racism ever ending, I do feel that it is a foolish reason to tolerate racism. Whether it is your own personal racism or someone else’s.
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Abagond,
As a blackman who lives in the real world, I have to disagree with you on this one my brotha. As I’ve stated before on your blog, race and racism have real consequences, and should be treated with the utmost respect and concern.
When blackmen are killed by white police officers without just cause, I don’t care about racial understanding.
When blackwomen are raped and killed, and the media doesn’t care to highlight their tragedy, I don’t care about racial understanding.
When blacks are killed in Sudan because they’re not muslim, and the UN and other government bodies don’t do anything to stop it, I don’t care about racial understanding.
When black parents can’t have school-choice because of teachers’ unions, who want black youth to stay enslaved to the public school system, I don’t care about racial understanding.
When blackwomen are covicted of murder for protecting their lives and those of their children because the criminal justice system in this country is sexist and biased against blackwomen, I don’t care about racial understanding.
When blackmen in hip-hop are encouraged to promote negativity amongst black people to sell records for white-owned media companies such as TimeWarner, Sony, and Universal, I don’t care about racial understanding.
When Christianity shoves a “White Jesus” down our throat, and at the same time wants us to be colorblind, I don’t care about racial understanding.
When educated black people are marginalized in this country because they can think for themselves and live their lives how they damn well please, I don’t care about racial understanding.
When blackwomen have to fight with women who aren’t black over their own men, because they think it’s okay to be a jealous b***h, I don’t care about racial understanding.
When black people in the hood have to duck bullets on the daily, because police departments only care about protecting non-black neighborhoods, I don’t care about racial understanding.
Abagond, as black people, we can no longer afford to deny what’s going on in the world. I don’t care if people, black or non-black like or dislike me, but they’re gonna feel and respect “Aquarius Vision” come hell or highwater. Black people, life is not a game!!!
Tyrone
Free Aquarius
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Will racism always be with us—probably but it depends on what you mean by racism. There is a basic psychological phenomenon called cognitive laziness. Cognitive laziness is where people take short hand cues about a person to tell us what we “think,” we to know about that person. I guarantee that 99+ percent people in the world do this all the time.
Personally, I find this an inadequate definition because it doesn’t allow us to work with the problem of racism. So if someone can furnish an adequate and actionable definition of racisim.
I think it has be based upon observable behavior.
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(I’m sorry, it gets vulgar at the end, but I really have to talk of it all somewhere and it seems a “safe” place by reading it all. I’m sorry if it is vulgar, I just couldn’t stop thinking of this and I was very anxious, so I tried to find somewhere I could try talking of this.)
(Also, I really try to think like there is only humanship and no colors, but somehow it doesn’t work. I mainly didn’t care before what I talk about under this, but now I feel like my whole identity is being a black woman, and my brain is wrecked up.)
Hello,
I know it isn’t really where to ask this… I’ve found this blog from Geek Feminism Blog, and I’d like some ideas about something that has really been on my mind.
I’ve almost been raped last year. I’ve tried talking about it on a forum but I’ve been told that I “had something against strangers” because I said the person who tried to rape me was black and happened to say stuffs like “I’ve got a big dick because I’m black”, “White men don’t because…”, and to fake not talking French (I actually believed that he didn’t talk french at the moment because I’m pretty naive) and that I shouldn’t make love to white dudes, and asking me if I did love to white or black men, and that white men only wanted me to be their servant. (lesbian, never f*’d with anybody, thanks for concern) For me *he* was racist. I’d never seen anybody doing that before, or thought one could be racist against his/her own race even though I thought one could well be sexist against his/her own sex.
Now I can’t stop thinking about what a person might have thought of “us” (black people) if the person he tried to rape was white (or anything else, aside from that I’ve always thought of this as only black and white people and then ethnics, and I just discovered reading it all that some white persons or blacks persons may consider asians as not white and some people I’d thought not face issues would). Then I think that maybe it’s racist of me to be mad at him for saying these things, but I would be mad too if he was white and said the same things or said similar things about his whiteness, except in a different way as if he said similar things about his whiteness he’d be using his privilege when by doing this about being black he is dragging “us” all down. I’ve never been concerned about that (racism) before. It’s bad to say but I really hate this person for trying to rape someone while perpetuating all sort of stereotypes. And someway the stereotypes-perpetuating is what annoys me the most. When I try to talk about how he did try to perpetuate those stereotypes nobody cares. I can’t stop thinking of this and what bothers, shocks me the most is the **** he said. I hate that.
I really tried speaking of this (not with people IRL, but with people I know on the Interwebz), and one girl said to me that I was right, it was bad, and she wasn’t perpetuating stereotypes about eastern europeans being stupid blonds and stealers, but somehow I think I only find her answer useful because it’s exactly what I want other people to think. Is it really as bad as I feel it if someone perpetuates his/her race stereotypes? Not because it happens someone is black and it happens someone likes watermelon, but by saying “hey, look at me, I’m black, and I’m also this and this because I’m black”… But maybe “people do what they want”.
I’m sorry, it’s not a “smart” comment like the others. I tried not to “overdramatise”, but excuse me if I did.
(Also, not really related but I wanted to say this to someone… Well, on the forum I’ve been, when I explained how I realised that he “lied” to me about not talking French, I’ve been told that I had not to say anything about that because, beware, I made spelling mistakes… And “t’as pas l’impression de te foutre de nos gueules?” (yes, no space before the ? is a typographic mistake in french, that ass did a typographic mistake but he is talking about how I’m a bad person for criticizing the things one other person did in view of an easy rape, because if I do spelling mistakes obviously I’m gonna rape someone too? also some of my sentences weren’t understandable, what an asshole am I)… Then I’ve only made some because I thought people won’t believe that I felt really bad if I didn’t, and I didn’t sleep and wrote really fast…
He said that he won’t “help” me because I’d insult him like I insulted other persons on this forum because they said that I had no problem and to go buy stuffs with my friends in the mall, and to buy a book about politness, but fuck politness damn it. Then other people told me the same stuffs, that I was a bad person, and that I shouldn’t insult people who take on their time to “help” me. I didn’t asked for help but for advice, and you don’t help someone by being six and then seven to tell her/him, in one or two lines, stuffs like “you don’t have any problem, be happy”. Then they said I negated other people problems, that I thought their lives were perfect in comparison of mine but why would I ask them for advice then? I really thought I could talk to persons that had the same problems as me, so I think nobody else than me has any problem? I’m sorry it’s not related but I wanted to talk about that. Then my post on that forum has been removed and I can’t stop thinking of that stupid forum post and the rest.)
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I’m not so sure about all that, “become fully integrated after the 2nd or 3rd generation” stuff.
For example, I definately don’t see Italians as fully integrated into American culture. Or Jews. I’d put both groups at about 75% integrated. But both groups came here, though, before multi-culturism became a big deal and neither group had there own TV stations and radio stations and all the stuff Hispanics enjoy. So, it may take much longer for Hispanics to become integrated.
Even some of the Asian groups here seem to be as integrated into American culture as Italians, IMO. For that matter and don’t get all upset for me saying this, some, though certainly not all, Native Americans don’t even seem to be fully integrated into American culture.
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Essbro,
I think committing genocide against them and stealing their lands might have something to do with it.
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@essbro: 😀 That was the funniest thing I read all weekend!! 😀
“For example, I definately don’t see Italians as fully integrated into American culture, Or Jews.”
Go tell that to Frank Sinatra, Liza Minnelli, Tony Bennett, Jake LaMotta, Joey Di Maggio, Frank Capra, Al Pacino, Robert DeNiro, Robert Loggia, Lady Gaga, Larry King, Steven Spielberg, Samuel Goldwyn, Barbra Streisand, Paul Simon & Art Garfunkel, Marilyn Manson etc.
“I’d put both groups at about 75% integrated.”
Pretty neat, 75% that is. And this is based on… What? 😀
Where do these guys grow up? Innocentville, Ignoramus, USA?? 😀
” I love my country”, Frank Costello 1950’s
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“For that matter and don’t get all upset for me saying this, some, though certainly not all, Native Americans don’t even seem to be fully integrated into American culture.”
I mean, is there anybody who is not laughing while reading this one? 😀
NATIVE AMERICANS ARE NOT FULLY INTEGRATEDE INTO AMERICAN CULTURE.
That has to be one of the most incredible statements in this blogs history. This makes guys like chuck, schwartz and others really look like scinetists! 😀
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@Donia K
What that man did was wrong!
I don’t believe that turning to the internet is a good way to recover.
Please, go get professional help.
You have my love and encouragement.
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Sam: Don’t forget about Louis Zamperini.
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@Donia:
You need to call a rape crisis centre and get referrals for counseling or therapy, from mental health professionals specializing in sexual assault. Sexual assault includes groping fondling and rape. Individuals on an internet forum can not assist you in this regards by virtue of being anonymous for the most part.
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Fatalism is not an option. Neither is determinism nor essentialism.
The world is what we make out of it.
What’s truly remarkable is that those who are the quickest to believe that the nastiest human behaviour is “naturally” innate are usually the quickest to dismiss commonalities as “unnatural imaginary figments”.
Those people still have a lot to learn. That is, if they took advantage of all the possibilities.
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***Racism in America is still at dangerously sick levels. Much higher than in most societies.***
What countries have lower levels than the US?
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Hello abagond interestingly informative website, intuitively thought provoking on many levels hope you visit my web site and look at all of it’s content.
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laromana says,
EXCELLENT comments, Tyrone!
Tyrone says,
Abagond,
As a blackman who lives in the real world, I have to disagree with you on this one my brotha. As I’ve stated before on your blog, race and racism have real consequences, and should be treated with the utmost respect and concern.
When blackmen are killed by white police officers without just cause, I don’t care about racial understanding.
When blackwomen are raped and killed, and the media doesn’t care to highlight their tragedy, I don’t care about racial understanding.
When blacks are killed in Sudan because they’re not muslim, and the UN and other government bodies don’t do anything to stop it, I don’t care about racial understanding.
When black parents can’t have school-choice because of teachers’ unions, who want black youth to stay enslaved to the public school system, I don’t care about racial understanding.
When blackwomen are covicted of murder for protecting their lives and those of their children because the criminal justice system in this country is sexist and biased against blackwomen, I don’t care about racial understanding.
When blackmen in hip-hop are encouraged to promote negativity amongst black people to sell records for white-owned media companies such as TimeWarner, Sony, and Universal, I don’t care about racial understanding.
When Christianity shoves a “White Jesus” down our throat, and at the same time wants us to be colorblind, I don’t care about racial understanding.
When educated black people are marginalized in this country because they can think for themselves and live their lives how they damn well please, I don’t care about racial understanding.
When blackwomen have to fight with women who aren’t black over their own men, because they think it’s okay to be a jealous b***h, I don’t care about racial understanding.
When black people in the hood have to duck bullets on the daily, because police departments only care about protecting non-black neighborhoods, I don’t care about racial understanding.
Abagond, as black people, we can no longer afford to deny what’s going on in the world. I don’t care if people, black or non-black like or dislike me, but they’re gonna feel and respect “Aquarius Vision” come hell or highwater. Black people, life is not a game!!!
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@ Schwartz I saw what you posted on my site you filth don’t talk to me you sub-sub-human ” you people” are a morally bankrupt race. Everytime you see people of color rebelling against the ” your people” criminal system around the world, you all throw a hissy fit.
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@ xxxphantomxxx
What are you talking about?
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“Sam, you REALLY get it. So many people don’t. Thank God for well-traveled, open-minded, intelligent people!”
I second this. Sam is one of the wisest posters on this blog.
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Hello people (Herneith, serpentus),
I think you are right.
I’m going to search for professionnal help like you said.
Somehow before reading your comments I thought maybe people will think it’s “victimizing” oneself to do that, but then you’re right it won’t help me to try talking to anonymous persons, I need to talk to a physical person that I know.
And I also thought that then I’d need to talk to a person from my family, but somehow I couldn’t before “clearing” things in my head, and maybe I’d be too much on the nerves then… So talking to a “professional” can sort of “link it”.
(just so you know it, after reading your comments I searched for a psychotherapist phone number in my city, and I have an appointment for this week.)
I also want to thanks the author of this blog… The new post “Black Shame” sort of help me rationalize some things.
Thanks you all.
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Is the attack against Libya, ordered by a black President of the USA, racist?
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@ Joe
Is that the way it works, or are the rumors true that the United Nations was somehow involved?
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@ JOE
What you should be asking is this: What do the various imperialist powers have to gain with sending in troops to Libya? Why do they support some dictators and go against others?
If you really want racism to end, you have to destroy the hierachy that makes racism possible. To keep it simple: Internationalism (no more borders) + end of capitalism + the destruction of the racial, gender, normative hierachies; Otherwise, all you get is a co-opting of acceptable minorities with their community representatives by the system of capital itself.
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Is that the way it works, or are the rumors true that the United Nations was somehow involved?
Nah, it was the Uranians who caused this! Or was it the Saturnians?
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@herneith: I knew there were those frigging Nians involved some how!
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there are quite a few facets to racism that many ‘white’ people ignore:
1 – its origins. it stems not from categorising people, but from attaching different values to those categories. there is nothing bad about noticing differences between things, the problem is about assuming those differences equate to differences in worth. there is also another aspect of many ‘white’ people’s mentality that i think stems from their culture – they believe in what i call zero-sum gain, i.e. in order to succeed someone else has to fail, in order to go forward someone else must be held back, for one person’s life to get better another person’s life has to be made worse. it’s all about competition, and the theory of evolution has had quite a large part in this thinking.
2 – its purpose. racism serves a purpose: to make some people (in this case ‘white’ people) feel better about themselves and feel justified in abusing others (in this case, ‘black’ people), or at least to not feel bad when such abuse is done. it’s partially why it still exists.
3 – its history. the “let’s all live in peace” philosophy is empty when it ignores history. the type of ‘white’-on-‘black’ (and resultant ‘black’-on-‘black’) racism has been going on for at least 500 years, and it has never been opposed on any grand far-reaching scale. and i mean NEVER, not even by ‘black’ people or anti-racist ‘white’ people.
because of this history racism is also the backbone of the current global culture; if it weren’t for the trans-atlantic slave trade and colonialism places like america (including USA, the caribbean & south america), europe and australia wouldn’t be the way they are. the current media was built on it, that’s why negative stereotypes about non-‘white’ people exist at all.
when all of those are opposed on a grand scale, only then will racism really be addressed.
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No, essbro, conformism, which is what you’re postulating does not get rid of racism. Blacks have been in America for hundreds of years but they are not accepted as part of American culture. If anything it strengthens racism and proves that the people calling for it are racist because they cannot accept somebody else if they are different. The differences don’t need to be cultural. Racism is superficial. Decisions and assumptions about people are made at first glance just from the first few things their eyes see, or some other unfamiliar thing they since like an accent or an unfamiliar name. Your suggestion of conformism to white Anglo-American culture functions the same way as racism, prejudice, xenophobia and in the west as white supremacism. It is not a new idea and we know from experience it returns the same results.
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Ugh. That picture of Dennis the Menace. Henry looks shocked at something that almost sounded racist, but the picture shows a effing golliwog.
^sense
I say, hear and think this too, Abagond. But not to excuse racism. I don’t know if I can convey the DESPAIR, dread and sorrow it fills me with to really understand the word ALWAYS in this sentence. Although hearing Obama say he wants to end racial profiling makes me feel like “go Obama go!”
Every day, every year, practically at any moment the atrocious evils of racism up to and beyond genocide will always just bide their time until they can raise up and takeover. Generation after generation, cute “innocent” babies grow up to be bigoted adults. People will never get over their racism and other deadly stigmas and keep trying to make justice an elusive thing like the foolish monkeys the human species is.The fight, the civil rights movement will never cease. I fear it really will never go away.
Nobody is safe.
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