This is a guest post by commenter Mira from Serbia. She does not hate the USA, especially not its people, but she does think it is unfair for any one culture to have most of the power and use it on others.
American privilege is not what many Americans often think it is. It is not about living in a great place full of opportunities and freedom instead of a horrible swamp. What is important to understand is that America, the USA, did not earn the good things it has through honest, hard work: specific historical conditions made the USA rich and powerful. It uses that power to work for its interests.
So having American privilege means being on the stronger side of the power struggle.
Here are some common ways of displaying American privilege (note that some of these apply to Western privilege in general):
- Seeing your nation as “default” – it is normal, everybody else is “different”.
- Assuming your cultural norms are universal.
- Not knowing what is like to have war in your homeland.
- Expecting people in other countries to speak your language when you travel abroad.
- Assuming everybody knows, or should know, your culture (even things like the “American Idol” contestants).
- Assuming nobody else has any of the technological advantages you have – like not knowing how to use a computer or even an oven.
- Believing everything you see on the news, even though it is told from the American point of view and is not a universal truth.
- Assuming everybody wants to live in America, since it is the best place to live (even without universal health care).
- Seeing people from other countries as inferior to you, even if they are highly educated and successful.
- Having plenty of movies and TV shows in your language, full of people from your country, showing your culture and way of life.
- Becoming famous or successful much more easily even if you suck at what you do.
- Assuming everyone on the Internet is American.
- Believing everybody else wants to adopt the American way of life. If they do not, there is something wrong with them. If they do not, America is going make them.
- You can take the liberty of shortening or changing people’s names if they are hard for you to pronounce.
- Believing America is fair and free. Everybody else lives in a mess.
- Assuming everybody wants the USA to help them.
- Seeing the USA as the best nation there is and being confused when others feel the same about their own countries.
- Being confused about people who do not like the USA or those who think it is not perfect. They must be jealous!
It is important to understand you have American privilege even if your life in America is not great; even if you belong to a discriminated group. Just as all whites have white privilege, even those who are poor, gay or non-Christian and therefore experience discrimination, so all Americans have American privilege.
See also:
Abagond 
Very true, well said Mira!!
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SO TRUE… I think Americans need to get out “MORE” of the USA maybe they’ll have more respect and consideration for others countries and see that the rest of the world DEFINITELY DO NOT live according to America way of life.
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Couldn’t have stated it better. Brilliant work here, Mira.
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Great writeup. Point 3 is really good.
About the other points its true, America’s biggest export is popular culture.
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And in a specifically racial context, as Ana Paula pointed out elsewhere…
Presuming that the anti-racist struggle in your country is the most advanced and successful in the world and that other oppressed peoples are brainwashed and/or backwards if they’re not trying to do exactly what you think happened in the U.S.
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I’m American and see this behavior in a number of my fellow countrymen. I find much of it completely obnoxious and wish that they could get some perspective.
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Or, for Ank Me’s sake…
Presuming that other “people of color” around the world are pretty much just like you in their political beliefs because, after all, you’ve both been oppressed by The Man.
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Everything that starts with “assuming” or “believing” It’s hard to see how those are privileges. Unless they are supposed to be optional privileges. Since one could choose not to assume or believe those things. Unlike white privilege, which you have if your white no matter what you believe.
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Jason, what’s your definition of privilege?
You have plenty of American privileges, by the way, independent of your beliefs.
1) The ability to move about the world pretty much at will – or at least to the most interesting parts of it – without getting hassled about the color of your passport.
2) Primary insertion in an economic system which pulls most of the economic strings in the world. Oh, you make minimum wage, you say? Brazilian minimum wage is now about 300 USD a month in an economy where kitchenettes rent for 600 USD, minimum.
3) The ability to speak and write English, however poorly. The rest of the world translates to YOUR toungue: learning other languages is strictly optional for you.
4) Citizenship in a country which has the most aggressive and competent military in the world. You will almost certainly never be bombed and most of you will never even hear a gunshot fired in anger.
This list could easily be extended.
4)
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@ Thaddy Boy
*raises eyebrow*
What’s that you were saying about people trolling blogs for reactions?
Like, I don’t know whether to be flattered or utterly creeped out by how much I affect you. You literally beg for my attention….
So I think this will be my last reply to you. I’m just going to go back to ignoring you…while observing your amusing inability to shut up about me.
@ Abagond
You sure know how to attract ’em.
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Thanks for your comments!
I’ll add my additional thoughts later, I just want to answer jas0nburns.
Everything that starts with “assuming” or “believing” It’s hard to see how those are privileges. Unless they are supposed to be optional privileges. Since one could choose not to assume or believe those things. Unlike white privilege, which you have if your white no matter what you believe.
To be honest, I didn’t know how to word these things. I chose to do it as a list of things Americans can do but others can’t. But it is not a list of opinions or subjective things per se; these are real stuff that all Americans have, like them or not.
For example, you (general you) may not care about Hollywood movies and you might prefer French cinematography. It doesn’t change the fact most of the movies and series you watch are in your own language.
You may speak Spanish, French or Russian, but it doesn’t change the fact ALL WORLD is supposed to speak English because it’s “lingua franca” of today.
So yes, it’s my bad I opted for listing things such as “believing” and “assuming” but I didn’t know how else to put it. There is a 500 word limit, after all.
And no, American privilege is not optional, you have it, like it or not, and you are USING IT, no matter if you’re aware of it and even if you see it as a “no big deal”.
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Very good summation, Mira…your points are spot on.
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And no, American privilege is not optional, you have it, like it or not, and you are USING IT, no matter if you’re aware of it and even if you see it as a “no big deal”.
Yup!!!
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I had to cut a lot of things because of the word limit.
Here’s what I wrote in my email to Abagond:
“I didn’t list some of the things Americans would put, such
as good education, lack of hunger, many opportunities, because no matter what Americans think, many other countries have all of that (and America often lack it- think about the lack of opportunities and discrimination many Americans face). So being able to get those things is not American privilege; thinking America is the only place that has them is displaying American privilege.”
What is important to say here is that I don’t believe America is a horrible place, or that my culture (or any other) is “better”. I certainly know my country IS in a mess, and so are many (most) of the others.
But I don’t think it’s so DIFFERENT in America. It’s just propaganda that’s telling you it’s completely different and much better. It isn’t. Black people, for example, know it’s not always fun to be black in America.
So while I don’t think America is a horrible place to live, it’s certainly not fantastic like media wants you- or me to believe.
So, why so many people from poor countries move to America (or West)?
There is no simple answer. Well, it is. Life in a poor country often sucks, but the thing is, poor countries are often poor not because they don’t have resources or hard working people, but because they don’t have much power. And America has it. So while it’s not fair to say poverty in these countries is USA’s fault, it’s certain that America doesn’t do much to help, no matter what American media tells its citizens about it.
Plus, many people who decide to emigrate don’t know what America (West) are really like, because they do believe in propaganda.
But that’s not it. If it were so horrible in America they would come back home. The thing is, there is something America has, and it’s the power. So it’s always better to be on the stronger side of the power struggle..
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I think Jason has a point. A false assumption is not a privilege.
“Not being brought up short by your false assumptions,” is a privilege, and but each false assumption is not in itself a privilege.
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@ thad
I may not have the best grammar, but at least I can f%&king read. Good grammar is useless if you ain’t saying nothing.
I only posted once. Be a champ and tell me where I indicated that I didn’t think I had American privilege, and I needed you to tell me all about it. ready go.
Let me say Mira I agree with the general premise of your post. And I know I have American privilege. Several items on the list are privileges that I and every American have. (didn’t think it was necessary to spell that out. huh.) I was just saying that if some of the specific privileges you listed depend on belief and opinion to work as privileges, maybe you should rethink those ones specifically. Even though they may be true of many Americans, they sound more like tendencies to me.
For example if i don’t assume that everyone wants America to help them, then I don’t have the privilege of believing that.
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Now about the list itself.
Seeing your nation as “default” – it is normal, everybody else is “different”.
I think this one is self-explanatory. It is one of the basic things when it comes to privilege: seeing your group and its ways as normal, and everybody else’s as “strange” or “different”. This othering is not an American trait; every group has it. But those who don’t have privilege must be aware of the others, while privileged ones don’t.
Assuming your cultural norms are universal.
This is also self-explanatory and goes with privilege. So many Americans, for example, assume all Christians celebrate Christmas on December 25th.
Not knowing what is like to have war in your homeland.
This is important. And no, you can’t really count Pearl Harbor or September 11th.
Civil war might be another thing, though, but it wasn’t a war with another country. You can argue Native Americans experienced many wars in their homeland, but these wars are not seen as part of American culture for the known reasons (nobody is really interested in that).
Expecting people in other countries to speak your language when you travel abroad.
Like Thad said, learning other languages is strictly optional for Americans. And I won’t even go into “American vs British English” (when Americans try to teach British that it’s incorrect to spell “coloUr”), because I believe (I hope) these are just ignorant individuals.
Assuming everybody knows, or should know, your culture (even things like the “American Idol” contestants), but on the other hand, thinking that nobody else has any of the technological advantages you have – like not knowing how to use a computer or even an oven.
This is another important thing and goes with privilege of seeing your cultural norms as universal AND your culture as superior. I chose to highlight this as a common way Americans misunderstand other cultures- and I believe it can be applied to most of the other privileges.
On one hand, they see everybody else as way too different; in the American case, it means everybody else have primitive technology, economy or political systems (even if it’s not the case).
On the other hand, they expect everybody else to follow THEIR cultural code and completely understand its culture, event the small and pointless things (such as pop culture).
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Great post Mira!
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So while I don’t think America is a horrible place to live, it’s certainly not fantastic like media wants you – or me to believe.
It’s really not.
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Believing everything you see on the news, even though it is told from the American point of view and is not a universal truth.
This is one can be rephrased as: America has the most powerful media in the world. Which also means a powerful propaganda.
Assuming everybody wants to live in America, since it is the best place to live (even without universal health care).
See media.
Seeing people from other countries as inferior to you, even if they are highly educated and successful.
Also see media.
Having plenty of movies and TV shows in your language, full of people from your country, showing your culture and way of life.
Each country has its own cinematography, but American is the most powerful one. Which means it shapes the views of not only Americans, but the rest of the world. And there are always Americans represented in these movies, they are main heroes, they are the ones who always save the day. Even aliens usually like to land in America!
Furthermore, the way Americans see OTHER NATIONS shapes everybody’s view on those nations, no matter how far from the truth that view may be!
Becoming famous or successful much more easily even if you suck at what you do.
It’s always better if you don’t suck, but even if you do, you have more chances of becoming successful (Stephenie Meyer, anybody?)
Assuming everyone on the Internet is American.
This may be the only one which IS subjective, and I admit, not all Americans are like this. But I must say most of the Americans online assume everybody else is American even on a public forum not specifically directed to Americans.
While it is subjective, it is also a form of privilege, because I, or somebody from Italy or even Australia can’t assume people on general forums are from their country.
Believing everybody else wants to adopt the American way of life. If they do not, there is something wrong with them. If they do not, America is going make them.
This is very important. And it’s also media and it sure does a lot of bad things across the world.
You can take the liberty of shortening or changing people’s names if they are hard for you to pronounce.
Many immigrants feel they should get rid of the “unpronounceable” names. I am guilty of that to, right here: Mira is just my nickname. I don’t use my full name online because I am tired of explaining people how to spell/pronounce it and even more tired of seeing others misspell it.
Furthermore, Americans feel offended when others do the same for them. “Scot”, for example, means “bastard” in my language, but nobody expects any guy named Scot to change his name in order for me to take him seriously.
Believing America is fair and free. Everybody else lives in a mess. Assuming everybody wants the USA to help them. Seeing the USA as the best nation there is and being confused when others feel the same about their own countries. Being confused about people who do not like the USA or those who think it is not perfect. They must be jealous!
See media.
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jas0nburns,
I didn’t accuse you of denying your American privilege. I am sorry if it sounded like an accusation.
What I’m saying here it’s that none of the things (except the Internet) is subjective and optional. I just didn’t know how to word it, and how to put everything in 500 words limit.
The thing is, stuff I listed can be made into two lists: what America as country (with its power, and media, and military force) is doing, and what its citizens are doing when displaying the privilege.
So while you may not think everybody wants American help, that IS what you government wants you to believe, and it’s the “official” way of dealing with other countries that do not accept American ways easily.
Many of the things I listed are forced by American media, and it shapes not just American, but everybody else’s life, because of globalization.
So if you, as a person, don’t believe others desperately need American help, good for you (and I really mean that), but it’s the way your country sees things, and it makes you, as an American, privileged, because you don’t have to worry about a foreign country forcing its culture on you (let alone military force).
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I like this list. I am an American, and I know I’ve been guilty of these things.
The thing about the list that struck me the most was this:
“Not knowing what is like to have war in your homeland. ”
I think this is HUGE. Americans simply don’t know what it’s like to have war on their home turf. There are no living Americans who remember what it’s like to have their homes invaded, their families harrassed/killed, to amass huge civilian casualties. I only know about these things vicariously myself — my parents grew up in China, where there are still people who remember the steep costs of war and revolution. But Americans often don’t have this knowlege — not even through close secondhand accounts. I think this is a big reason why the American populace is so militaristic and eager to turn to the military as a solution, unfortunately.
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@Ank Me
Like, I don’t know whether to be flattered or utterly creeped out by how much I affect you. You literally beg for my attention….
What can I say? When someone carries as big a chip on their shoulder as you do, they’re just begging for someone else to come around and knock it off.
But I’ll stop taking cheap shots at you if you can restrain your own tendency to toss out ad hominems.
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Great post, Mira.
“# Assuming everybody wants to live in America, since it is the best place to live (even without universal health care).
# Believing America is fair and free. Everybody else lives in a mess.
# Assuming everybody wants the USA to help them.
# Seeing the USA as the best nation there is and being confused when others feel the same about their own countries.
# Being confused about people who do not like the USA or those who think it is not perfect.”
I have to say, these seem more like a “stuff white [American] people do” than a general American sentiment. For example, I don’t know too many black Americans who think the U.S. is “fair and free” (maybe two, max). And usually if a person gets angry about someone criticizing the U.S., it’s a white person, or a non-white person who identifies with whites.
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@Jason
I may not have the best grammar, but at least I can f%&king read. Good grammar is useless if you ain’t saying nothing.
?
Wtf? Lost me there, man.
I only posted once. Be a champ and tell me where I indicated that I didn’t think I had American privilege, and I needed you to tell me all about it. ready go.
You indicated that Mira’s list wasn’t “really” privilege, so I tossed out some things that are. You seem to have taken this as a personal dig.
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Terrific post, Mira! *thumbs up*
@Ankhesen Mié:
I see you girl. Some things…make that…some people are best ignored. Good for you. 😀
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@ mira
“I didn’t accuse you of denying your American privilege. I am sorry if it sounded like an accusation.”
meh, no biggie. I was yelling at Thad.
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@ Thad
“3) The ability to speak and write English, however poorly. The rest of the world translates to YOUR toungue: learning other languages is strictly optional for you.”
I thought the “however poorly” was directed at me and took it personally. If that’s not the case my bad.
“you indicated that Mira’s list wasn’t “really” privilege,”
No I did not. I said SOME of the items on his list were not privilege. Was that not stated plainly enough? I even indicated which specific items.
I thought that I was clear and my comments would not be seen as a dismissal of the entire concept of American privilege or that Mira had it all wrong or something.
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Nope, it wasn’t. But in any case, what I wanted to show were some privileges that had nothing to do with beliefs.
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@Mira: I think your phrase “American Privilege” conflates several different ideological concepts into something that is hard to address as if it were some sort of singular phenomenon. I think its easier to address the things you mention as falling under maybe two broad subjects: National Power & Influence (Economic, Military, Political), and National Cultural and Social Ideologies.
The origins of National Power and Influence aren’t unique to America, it just so happens the USA is dominant in contemporary times. Other nations have held sway over the course of history, and the reasons for a particular country’s ascendency are pretty well explored by Jared Diamond in his book, “Guns, Germs, and Steel.”
As to the National Cultural and Social Issues…well, basically you seem to have mostly encountered the less sophisticated and poorly traveled subset of US citizens. And there are a lot of them, I know….but understand we have to deal with their ignorance on domestic issues here at home and so its a nice break when these morons actually decide to leave the country for a while.
Just remember, ignorance and stupidity are possibly the only things shared by the peoples of all nations and cultures. Those traits are a burden upon all who have to interact with others, regardless of their geographic location…☺
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Natasha–
I have to say, these seem more like a “stuff white [American] people do” than a general American sentiment. For example, I don’t know too many black Americans who think the U.S. is “fair and free” (maybe two, max). And usually if a person gets angry about someone criticizing the U.S., it’s a white person, or a non-white person who identifies with whites.
RDKirk–
Maybe it’s a mistaken assumption by non-Americans that all Americans think alike about America.
I do know, though, that most white Americans seem to have no clue that black Americans look back on history and see a different America from the one they see. There are darned few blacks who lived through the 50s that look back on it with nostalgia.
I had to smile grimly at Louis CK’s line, “Black people can’t f&*%$ with time machines.”
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Great post Mira.
Just one small example of this that I observed just yesterday:
I was watching a British news story on youtube about a violent Asian gang. In the British context of “Asian”, the gang was Pakistani in ethnicity.
I stopped counting the numerous attached comments (almost certainly from Americans) saying things like “WTF? They are not Asian, they have Muslim names” or “How is this story about Asians? They don’t have slanty eyes.”
I kid you not.
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“I do know, though, that most white Americans seem to have no clue that black Americans look back on history and see a different America from the one they see. ”
I disagree. I think they do know that black Americans see a different America, and not just when the look back, but also in the here and now. The same white Americans don’t really understand why. Most imagine it’s because black Americans are separatists who want government handouts.
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MIRA!
I have nothing to say…other than I agree with you and appreciate the way you laid it all out.
Thank you for sharing!
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Its a bit ironic to write an article about how privileged we are in the US, yet at the same time, condemn us for believing the US is the best country in the world 🙂
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@RDKirk
For example, I don’t know too many black Americans who think the U.S. is “fair and free” (maybe two, max).
That’s when they’re talking to other Americans – especially white Americans. Get black americans talking to, say, Brazilians and you’d be very surprised to hear what some of them have to say. Apparently, the U.s. is light years ahead of Brazil in anything you care to name, at least according to many of the guys I’ve met.
Now people like YOU, Kirk, black or white, probably don’t do that. But you’re not the majority.
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@Janie
Its a bit ironic to write an article about how privileged we are in the US, yet at the same time, condemn us for believing the US is the best country in the world
Take out “U.S.” and “country” and slot in “white” and “race” and see how “ironic” you find the statement.
As in…
“Its a bit ironic to write an article about how privileged we are as white, yet at the same time, condemn us for believing that whites are the best race in the world.”
Find it ironic now?
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Great post Mira. 🙂
Leigh! We missed you! 🙂
I’ve noticed some Americans like to link language and intelligence, but those are often the people who are the worst at languages. The sentiment seems to be that English is so far above and beyond other languages that knowing it puts you in genius territory, while knowing multiple languages that don’t include English gets you diddly.
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Its a bit ironic to write an article about how privileged we are in the US, yet at the same time, condemn us for believing the US is the best country in the world
Ironic? How so?
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Absolutely great choice of photograph to go with the post! Condoleeza Rice, breaking barriers of prejudice and discrimination at home only to become an agent of evil abroad – what gruesome irony.
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Mira–
great article.
i’ve been thinking about this lately (privilege in general). mostly in order to eliminate some portion of the confusion i feel about the racism/colourism & micro-aggression i sometimes encounter. your post gives me more to consider. i have to say that i do function in some of the ways you list above–such as assuming that everyone on the internet speaks english
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“Its a bit ironic to write an article about how privileged we are in the US, yet at the same time, condemn us for believing the US is the best country in the world”
Alanis Morissette would be proud.
(Not that I assume non-Americans should know who that is)
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@Jasmin:
It’s great to be back! I was on my holidays so what’s happened since I went MIA? 😀
Before my Filipino mother immigrated, she mentioned that many Americans couldn’t understand why people didn’t just speak English since the Philippines was formerly colonized by the US. Filipinos speak what they are comfortable with so speaking their main Filipino language was preferred.
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Great post Mira, alot of truth
What is important to understand is that America, the USA, did not earn the good things it has through honest, hard work: specific historical conditions made the USA rich and powerful. It uses that power to work for its interests.
I 100% agree
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Mira,
I try not to be patronizing or condescending when I interact with a person from another country, but on a couple of occasions I found myself doing just that. Once in person and on the internet.
Intellectually I don’t agree with any of the points you have made, but I am sure I have said things from an American perspective that make it seems so.
There are a few things I don’t understand myself. I don’t understand how some Americans get almost teary eyes at the nation building in Iraq and Afghanistan. The name shortening by people whose ancestors names had been shortened to conform to a WASP standard .
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I went to get contacts one day and when the receptionist saw my name she – quite predictably – asked me “what I was”. I told her and she said, “Well, you don’t look like one…not that I’ve ever seen one. I’m not even sure what they look like!”
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Great post, Mira!! I have a lot of foreign friends who complain about everything that’s you’ve mentioned in some form.
It’s always interesting what other people think of Americans.
Seeing your nation as “default” – it is normal, everybody else is “different”.
Yes, this is not unusual.
Assuming your cultural norms are universal.
Sorry to say that I’ve been gulity of that.
Expecting people in other countries to speak your language when you travel abroad.
But some people take such offense to Spanish speaking people talking amongst their family and say things like, “speak English, you’re not in Mexico anymore”.
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To be honest, I didn’t know how to word these things. I chose to do it as a list of things Americans can do but others can’t. But it is not a list of opinions or subjective things per se; these are real stuff that all Americans have, like them or not.
The reason you didn’t how to word these things so that they sounded like privilege is because they actually aren’t privilege. Privilege is not something you can do or not do.
The only two things I see on the list that are actually privilege are:
# Having plenty of movies and TV shows in your language, full of people from your country, showing your culture and way of life.
# Becoming famous or successful much more easily even if you suck at what you do.
Yes, Americans can access plenty of media made (mostly) by people from their country and set in their country. Come to think of it, so can people from a lot of countries with developed entertainment industries. Unfortunately this privilege isn’t quite shared by the entire US population.
The second point is actually the “full of opportunities” that you claim American privilege isn’t about.
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Okay, I just read your other comment and realized that it pretty much boils down to the fact that America produces and exports the most media in the world.
Yes, that’s true, but keep in mind that the media you get only represents a fraction of the American people, and for the most part does a poor job at that. So when American media marginalizes its population, it’s not “American” privilege, unless by “American” you mean the powerful demographic group(s) in America.
The nickname thing just isn’t privilege. Some people take nicknames when they cross cultures/languages, and some don’t. It’s a personal choice for how you introduce yourself. This has nothing to do with country, but language.
Really, most of our list should have just been “Annoying things many Americans are ignorant about.”
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@Katie
I would have agreed with you but Mira has been careful to give her own personal definition of privilege.
Also , she has clearly stated that her list was about symptoms displayed.
@Mira
Well since you have defined american privilege has being on the stronger side of the power struggle, wouldn’t the primary symptom be :
To treat any other country as a historically or potentially vanquished country whether militarily, scientifically or ideologically.
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@JGreyden
Thank you for your reply. I would appreciate if Mira would elaborate on her definition of privilege, in particular a definition of the power struggle she references. It seems to me from the list that the power struggle is cultural, not political or military. In fact, her main complaint seems to be that American media is internationally dominant.
There are two reasons I think that this phenomenon should not be categorized as American privilege.
First, it seems to be a cultural power struggle, and the American culture winning this power struggle is not a culture that all Americans share or even have access to. In fact, the culture exported by American media does not represent the majority of Americans or reflect how they see themselves. In many ways, the cultural dominance of American media is more a vehicle of white english-speaking privilege than of American privilege. It is not a privilege to be misrepresented across the world.
Second, privilege is used in social justice circles to describe how simply being of a certain demographic group provides advantages to an individual to the extent that those who are not in that demographic group experience oppression. Mira has not described any advantages besides the two I mentioned (more access to media and easy path to fame/success) and even those are more a function of race and language than nationality. I think it’s inappropriate to use the word “privilege” simply to mean that a country exports more media across the world.
On a tangent, Japan, UK, India, and Hong Kong also export tons of media.
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Excellent post, Mira. I can relate to most of it.
I might add my alienshitlist. My sources: I lived in the US for a few years and still visit occasionally.
* An obsessive love affair with money and the belief that everything can be bought and sold, even respect. Money is a deity.
* The dichotomy of reducing politics to testosterone-driven trivialities on the one hand and an over-intellectualising but often too polite (intimidated?) approach on the other.
* Permanent polarisation. Shades of grey seem to be deliberately ignored.
* Quick dismissal (said out loud or thought) of sensible and pragmatic approaches as “socialist”, “gay” or “nerdy”.
* The attention span of a five year old in many adults and a lack of sense for detail. On a related note, everything seems to be done with approximation. Sell first, test later. A bit like shoot first, ask questions later.
* The unabashed freewheeling of the corporate elite. It always seemed to me that the only people who are able to stay down to earth are minorities and recent immigrants.
* An intimate relationship with violence and the unshakeable belief that only firearms keep a society safe and polite.
* Contrary to popular belief, the USA are far from being the most wanted destination for asylum seekers and immigrants, on a per capita basis. On a related note, the USA seem to attract a proportionally high number of immigrants who already had racist/segregationist tendencies in their home countries. (This is based on personal observation but also confirmed by people I talked to in the US.) Self-segregation, aka sticking to “your own” people, is not only encouraged, it is basically expected.
I do like my visits in the USA. I don’t dislike Americans for their harmless imperfections while they assume they are perfect. What I do dislike is their archaic attitude in most social matters, their deliberate ignorance in factual matters and their obsession with classifying everything according to standards which totally dismiss the knowledge and realities of “the rest of the world” – which is about 95%.
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I think the US goverment does a lot to tarnish the image of USA abroad. Ok, there are some things that I don’t find that nice about the America, but that said: I love many of the movies, books, I love the music and many of the foods, the foods specially.
I’ve met a lot of great guys over there and abroad, and some nasty and not so great guys who were americans, whites and others, but I have no hate nor envy or anything like that towards the country. I think USA is a very strange place on earth for various reasons, one being its ethnical mix. You walk down a street in NYC or some other big city, and you’ll see all kinds of people. Ok, US can be a huge mess too, but still I like the place.
Are americans priveleged? Yes, the ones who have. Lets not forget that there are millions who are have nots. Millions of adults can not read, millions have no housing, food, healthcare etc. That is also the reality.
But with all it’s warts and scars and warmongering politicians and o’reillys, it is a place that I remember with warmth. It is so much, good and bad.
As for the cultural dominance, the tv and movies, popular culture IS american culture. Yes, I know you have Mark Rothko and Salinger and others before them, but the majority of the world sees american culture in movies and on tv. It is McDonalds and cola wars, Britney without snickers and some weird news anchors who look like their teeth were vut from bathroom porcline. But I guess some of us love to hate it and hate to love it. I for one would not give up Raymond Chandler, Dashilee Hammett or James Ellroy.
One thing I never got my head around was the thing with the guns.
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Thanks for the comments. 🙂
The point of the article can be summarized in one sentence (second paragraph): So having American privilege means being on the stronger side of the power struggle.
Stuff I listed are the ways people can display their American privilege, what they are free to do that non-Americans (sometimes non-Westerners) can’t do, or if they do, nobody is affected by it. For example, the first thing listed: seeing you culture as “normal” and others as “different” tend to be universal for all the societies. However, what people in my culture, of people in Lebanon or Ghana think don’t have much of an impact on the rest of the world. And USA has the power to actually make everybody follow its cultural norms.
Some people (many people, I hope) may choose not to abuse any of the privilege listed. They may insist on learning French before going to France, and they can understand why not everybody should do what America think it’s right. Good for them. But American privilege gives them freedom to do this OPTIONALLY, if they feel like it, while the rest of the world don’t have this privilege.
Similarly, men have male privilege. They can have casual sex with a random person WITHOUT risking their reputation and without being treated like garbage and less than human. It doesn’t mean ALL men do that; but their male privilege gives them the opportunity to do it, should they feel like it.
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Natasha,
I have to say, these seem more like a “stuff white [American] people do” than a general American sentiment. For example, I don’t know too many black Americans who think the U.S. is “fair and free” (maybe two, max). And usually if a person gets angry about someone criticizing the U.S., it’s a white person, or a non-white person who identifies with whites.
lol, true, some of these do sound like “Stuff American people do”. But “stuff X people do” is actually listing ways privileged show their privilege.
As for black Americans, I did notice many are less ignorant than white Americans, which is a good thing, and it’s logical. Blacks don’t have privilege of thinking they are the most important and they have to be constantly aware of whites (while whites don’t have to even think about blacks if they don’t want to). So I guess that can make blacks and other non-white Americans (westerners) be less ignorant. On the other hand, the fact you are discriminated can make some people blind to other people’s problems (as witnessed in white women who don’t understand they have white privilege because they are victims of sexism).
However, what I wrote has nothing to do with American internal problems (problems Americans face). Most of the blacks, for example, know USA is not fair, or at least not as fair as it is to whites. But when it comes to comparing USA to other countries, I must say many blacks and other non-whites (as far as I can tell) do think USA is a better place to live with more opportunities. This was witnessed several times on this blog.
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Extremist Moderate
The origins of National Power and Influence aren’t unique to America, it just so happens the USA is dominant in contemporary times.
Exactly! I don’t think there is something wrong about America or Americna culture per se, or that is more evil or worse than the others. It’s just the most powerful AT THE MOMENT, so its people have the most privilege.
Different cultures were dominant in the past, and some others will be dominant in the future. So we could easily talk about their privilege when the time comes. After all, not long time ago, there were two strong forces in the world (USA and SSSR) and both of them used and abused the power and privilege in their own way.
There is no such thing as a fair society or a fair rule. Whoever has the power, abuses it. That’s how it goes.
I in no way, shape or form think Americans are stupid or moronic… Well, nothing more than any other people. The last thing I want is my post to be taken as an anti-American rant!
RDKirk,
Maybe it’s a mistaken assumption by non-Americans that all Americans think alike about America.
No, not really. Though you are right about one thing: non-Americans often think of Americans as a monolithic group. But that’s not what I meant here. Whatever horror black people faced and are still facing, they still have American privilege. Just like a poor white person who struggles to survive still has a white privilege, and a black guy who suffers racism still have male privilege.
Eurasian Sensation,
Indeed. Americans in general (regardless of race) do have their own idea about things such as race. Nothing wrong with that: everybody does. But they seem their idea of it is universal.
Janie,
Its a bit ironic to write an article about how privileged we are in the US, yet at the same time, condemn us for believing the US is the best country in the world.
I didn’t write that American people are privileged for living in the US. To be honest, living in a country without universal health care sound pretty awful to me.
So no, I don’t think Americans should be happy to live in America (not that I think they should be desperate- loving your country is perfectly fine), I just think the fact USA is the most powerful country in the world gives them privilege to be on the strongest side of the power struggle. Power lets you do whatever you want, no matter how bad or unfair it is, and nobody can prevent you from doing it.
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temple,
i’ve been thinking about this lately (privilege in general). mostly in order to eliminate some portion of the confusion i feel about the racism/colourism & micro-aggression i sometimes encounter. your post gives me more to consider.
I am glad Abagond gave me the opportunity to write this and to publish it on his blog, where majority of visitors are not white.
Like I said, non-whites often tend to be less ignorant than whites, so I don’t think they need to think about American privilege more than white Americans. However, it’s always good to think about different types of privilege and oppression, in order to gain a perspective and maybe to better udnerstand the one you are facing.
I know learning more about racism and problems black people face, and white privilege helped me understand some things better (such as conflicts people in my part of the world face), even if they are not related to race per se.
Hathor,
The name shortening by people whose ancestors names had been shortened to conform to a WASP standard .
True, and I know that’s something many black and other non-white people face. Not to mention they are often called by another black person’s name!
But I am sorry to say WASPs are not the only guilty for doing it; there are non-whites and non-WASPs who routinely misspell other people’s names or shorten them. Though I must admit non-whites rarely label any name “funny” or “strange” while it’s a common thing for whites to say (and even think it’s a compliment).
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Mira,
I would refer you back to the comic strip abagond presented to illustrate white privelige:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/07/11/white-privilege/
That strip illustrates in each panel how a white person GOT MATERIALLY AHEAD of minorities. “Privilege” is about material advantages.
A person’s “assumptions” do not gain him any material advantages. In fact, a false assumption can cost him what material advantages he may have. As I mentioned before, the “freedom” to live in a fantasy world of false assumptions and not get stung by them is a privilege–but each assumption is not a privilege.
–“Not knowing what is like to have war in your homeland.”
Yes, this is a true material advantage. If you’ve just climbed out of a war and I haven’t, I likely have a material advantage that you have not. It’s a privilege.
–“Expecting people in other countries to speak your language when you travel abroad.”
That’s not a material advantage. That’s a disadvantage that might get me into serious trouble. A disadvantage is not a privilege.
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Excellent post. Bookmarked for future reference. The comments are all really interesting too.
@jas0nburns
“Alanis Morissette would be proud.
(Not that I assume non-Americans should know who that is)”
I think you displayed another one that could be added to the list: Assuming that Canadians are American.
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Katie,
Yes, that’s true, but keep in mind that the media you get only represents a fraction of the American people, and for the most part does a poor job at that.
I know that. I don’t think Americans are the way they are portrayed in media. Just like media does a horrible job at portraying non-Americans, it does a horrible job at portraying Americans.
But in any case, the image both you and I get are American view on things, and not, say, Korean, Nigerian or Slovenian.
The nickname thing just isn’t privilege. Some people take nicknames when they cross cultures/languages, and some don’t. It’s a personal choice for how you introduce yourself. This has nothing to do with country, but language.
If a guy prefers to be called Nick instead of Nikola (which is one of the most popular male names in my culture), fine by me. But if he is forced to do so because a) his full name sounds feminine in your culture, and b) nobody can spell it, then it’s not fair. Nor it’s fair if people spontaniously start calling him Nick without asking him for permision.
My full name, for example, is nor Mira but Mirjana, and I saw it mispelled more times than I can remember. I am fine with “Mira” (especially since it’s short and easily to spell and pronounce), but I’d be offended if some people took the liberty to shorten my name to whatever sounds pronouncable to them. (Not to mention my last name).
JGreyden,
To treat any other country as a historically or potentially vanquished country whether militarily, scientifically or ideologically.
Good one. Though I must say it’s not so much about what USA think about other countries, but what USA can DO when thinking said stuff about other countries. (Because USA is hardly alone in having a bad attitude towards certain coutnries, but it has more power to do whatever it wants about it).
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Katie,
It seems to me from the list that the power struggle is cultural, not political or military. In fact, her main complaint seems to be that American media is internationally dominant.
Fair enough criticism. I am sorry I didn’t elaborate more on military, political and economic power USA has and forces on others. I guess I thought it’s obvious.
But by all means, yes, I meant on the abuse of the strongest power there is, be it political, military, economic or media.
It is not a privilege to be misrepresented across the world.
Exactly. I know what is like, believe me. However, we can both blame American media for it.
As for other countries, fear not, they are also doing whatever they can in terms of political, military, media or economic power. I don’t think they (whoever they are) are “better” than Americans. The reason this article is not about them is because USA is, at the moment, the most powerful.
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Femi,
Thanks for your observations.
On a related note, the USA seem to attract a proportionally high number of immigrants who already had racist/segregationist tendencies in their home countries. (This is based on personal observation but also confirmed by people I talked to in the US.) Self-segregation, aka sticking to “your own” people, is not only encouraged, it is basically expected.
Interesting. I never thought about it (in terms of USA attracting racist immigrants). But I do know about self-segregation and sticking to “your own”. I know people from my culture (and other Balkan cultures) do that when they emigrate. They tend to stick to “their own”, which is really stupid if you ask me.
RDKirk,
I disagree about privilege being (mainly) about material advantage. That would mean that any rich black person or any rich woman have nothing to complain, and that any poor white guy is below them and can be oppressed by them. And as far as I know, blacks (and women) hate when a white guy says: “I can’t be privileged! I am poor!”
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Mira,
My dad told me to always respect a persons name, to pronounce it as they say it, even if it appears to be something else.
My last name can be phonetically spelled in English, but is often mispronounced or misspelled. Very simple and two syllables.
For some reason there doesn’t seem to be the necessity to make any conscious effort to pronounce or spell a persons name in this country, be it complex or simple.
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Hathor,
Your father gave you a good advice. Mistreating a person’s name is extremely offensive. I don’t particularly like my name (when I was a kid I wanted to be called Natasha, lol) but it doesn’t mean I like when others don’t respect me enough to at least try to remember it. (And no, it doesn’t have to be specific-privilege related… My name isn’t common in my culture for people my age, so people often call(ed) me by another, more common female names starting with M).
That doesn’t mean I am against nicknames, or even adopting a nickname others gave you (after all, we often don’t choose our nicknames). But there is a difference between adopting a nickname and people taking liberty to call you whatever they see fit, because your real name is “funny” or “unpronounceable” (funny and unpronounceable to whom, I may ask).
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As for RDKirk’s interpretation of privilege, material advantage is one type of privilege out of many others. I think the actual issue is (at least was) about American efforts to global dominance in terms of ideology, control of natural and human ressources and, in exchange, promising the “rest of the world” the “good American life”, democracy and prosperity. Allegedly the only system that really works. This however often happened by disrespecting or ignoring a number of cultural details.
A foreign country that doesn’t share someone else’s political system, beliefs and culture is less likely to comply to any sort of dominance or control from that outsider. So the ‘soft’ way is to try to make them share your beliefs by either bribing the elite and/or flooding them with some of your cultural elements which are self-declared as “the righteous way, the cool way, the fashionable way”. While there might even be a sincere motivation in some of the perpetrators, most are approaching the issue by assuming their ideological privilege. Along the lines of “hey, we’re Americans. We bring you democracy, consumption goods and cool TV shows. Anyway, we are always right, aren’t we?”
The fact that there are dozens of other functioning democracies in this world, which may even be closer to true democracy than the US type, becomes irrelevant in the eyes of many Americans. They’d rather make all sorts of efforts to find a hair in the soup of those foreign countries than to actually acknowledge their quality and take a look into it. They don’t have to take a look. They are Americans. End of.
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Femi,
I agree.
By the way, somebody linked to this article on livejournal, and reading your comments here and their comments, I can see the main problem with the article: I didn’t stress enough the importance of political, military and economy power USA have and the privilege it brings to its citizens.
Like I said in my reply to Katie, I guess I thought it was obvious, so I didn’t focus of it. Also, I beginning to wonder if I didn’t focused on it because those aspects are what hurts me the most (which makes it more difficult for me to talk about it).
But in any case, the power I mentioned is what gives American the power, both in terms of military, political or economic power, AND in terms of privilege to be completely ignorant about the rest of the world and to expect everybody should adjust to them.
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Mira, excellent post!
American Privilege: Getting to decide what constitutes privilege and what doesn’t – while sometimes basing those claims solely on semantics.
Honestly, picking apart the list and deciding what goes and what stays based on your own assumptions is pretty privileged isn’t it? It’s like whites getting to decide what “all white people do” based on the things they do as individuals. It’s a list of common American privilege, folks, and just because you don’t do y and z doesn’t mean you don’t do a through x.
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Getting to decide what constitutes privilege and what doesn’t – while sometimes basing those claims solely on semantics.
Ugh. My problem wasn’t semantic. And actually the purpose of my objections to certain items was to hopefully help zero in on actual privileges for more in depth analysis without the clutter of mere false assuptions getting in the way, Only because I actually think it’s important to identify real priveliges. For example whar makes Peggy mcintosh’s list of WP unassailable is that every WP has all of those privileges no matter what. Somtimes pointing out inconsistancies can be helpful and that was my intent.
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I think I’m seeing a pattern here: “privilege” isn’t universal when it’s applied to a group to which one belongs. Then one sees all sorts of exceptions to the rule – usually including oneself.
Alot of the folks posting above have absolutely no problem at all in treating white people as if they were an essentially homogenous and privileged group. When the focus moves to Americans, however, all of a sudden we get all sorts of reasons why this or that sub-branch of Americans isn’t REALLY privileged.
😀
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“all of a sudden we get all sorts of reasons why this or that sub-branch of Americans isn’t REALLY privileged. ”
that’s precisely why I wanted to identify those privileges which all Americans have, regardless of class, race, cultural background or anything else. So that there could be no exceptions. It could be done.
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jas0nburns,
It is difficult, if not impossible, to find any privilege with “no exceptions”, because there are always exceptions to the any rule possible.
However, you seem to ignore the fact that you, as an American, are free to do some things that non-Americans can’t do. Whether you actually do them or not is not relevant; the fact that you can, not because you are better or smarter but just because you are an American is your American privilege.
Maybe you don’t assume all countries depend on your country and want it to help them, but you are “allowed” to do that if you want (no matter how little sense that makes), while I am not.
You don’t have to think about the rest of the world if you don’t want to, and the rest of the world has to think about America.
You don’t have to think that your country is the bestest on the planet, but you can and I can’t- and it’s not because my country objectively sucks (though it does) and yours is objectively amazing.
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Maybe you don’t assume all countries depend on your country and want it to help them, but you are “allowed” to do that if you want (no matter how little sense that makes), while I am not.
Not true, you could think that about your country if you wanted, and you would be no more wrong or right than I would be if I thought the same about my country. But if your saying that my false assumptions carry more weight because I’m an American that might be true, but that would also be true if I assumed that the moon was made of BBQ spareribs. so there’s no point in adding a list of specific false assumptions that Americans make to a list of American privileges.
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I’ve only recently discovered this site and I quite like it. I wasn’t intending to reply to anything, but I had to respond to this one.
As someone who was born and raised outside the US, I can say that this article appears to be true for many Americans (whether all or some of the traits are there). Just glancing about on the internet, you find that everyone is assumed to be American. It is the ‘default’ nationality of the internet.
American films and TV shows are shown in many different countries, but you won’t find their films and TV shows being shown in the US that much. Even great ‘foreign’ films are always remade by American directors with American cast instead of subbed or dubbed and shown as it is. I think this also contributes to some people’s expectations for the whole world to be familiar and up-to-date with the TV shows they are watching.
I think the US government is also guilty of throwing its weight around, expecting the world to bend to it. For example, when everyone began to panic about terrorists, they demanded the bank information of European citizens to be given to them immediately in order to ‘fight terrorism’.
However, while I think it is easier for an American to fall into this trap due to the power the USA holds today, I think anyone from a developed country of the west can be guilty of the things on this list. For example, British people finding it weird when people don’t form an orderly queue, French people being shocked and incredulous when you say you do not eat baguette much, German people being surprised at others not following the rules, etc. Ignorance is everywhere and unfortunately, in some cases, travel alone will not cure it unless the individual is aware of their ignorance and wishes to broaden their horizons.
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Not true, you could think that about your country if you wanted, and you would be no more wrong or right than I would be if I thought the same about my country. But if your saying that my false assumptions carry more weight because I’m an American that might be true, but that would also be true if I assumed that the moon was made of BBQ spareribs.
True… technically. However, in reality, America doesn’t have any interests in making people believe the moon was made of BBQ spareribs (at least for now 😉 ) so it’s not much of an issue.
“American burden” (of “helping” people around the world), on the other hand, have real, real consequences for millions (billions) of people. You, as an individual, may not agree with it, but if you are an American you are safe because you are located on the strongest side of the power struggle.
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that’s precisely why I wanted to identify those privileges which all Americans have, regardless of class, race, cultural background or anything else. So that there could be no exceptions. It could be done.
Right. Ethnocentrism alone is not privilege.
So the first step would be to define “privilege”
Wanna take a shot at it?
And be fairly warned that I plan on using this definition in future arguments regarding race relations as well, because often here white ethnocentrism is DEFINITELY understood as white privilege.
I wonder if we can actually establish a definition. It would be intereting to try.
So…?
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Ella,
Thank you for your comment.
Just glancing about on the internet, you find that everyone is assumed to be American. It is the ‘default’ nationality of the internet.
True! Also, people often ask you what state you’re from (state, not country), as if there’s nothing wrong with that kind of question.
However, while I think it is easier for an American to fall into this trap due to the power the USA holds today, I think anyone from a developed country of the west can be guilty of the things on this list.
To be honest, I think ALL societies are guilty for some stuff on this list (especially the first thing I listed), but other societies don’t have that much power (like US, or some other (western) countries). It’s like saying there are racist black people- of course there are, but blacks as a group don’t have that much power and their racism and ignorance can’t do as much harm as white racism can.
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Thad,
I associate privilege of any sorts with power. I know you are not really into that kind of definitions, so I don’t know what to say.
Also, what is important to understand (and what I wrote but had to cut due to word count):
Just like any other aspect of identity, it’s impossible to separate Americanism from other aspects of one’s identity. So it’s really difficult, if not impossible, to judge someone’s life experience based on the fact he or she has American privilege.
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I’ve lived in the United States all my life and I’m very critical of it.
I’m ashamed to say I live in a country where people really believe one American life is worth the lives of one hundred or one thousand Afghan people. I’m ashamed to say I live in a country that enslaved my ancestors.
America, in all its influence, has a lot of issues and its applifying/spreading those issues around the world with its globalization and the continuation of the so-called “Manifest Destiny”.
I’m not patriotic or the opposite. I just try to see things for what they are without red, white, and blue stars in my eyes.
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Thad,
“That’s when they’re talking to other Americans – especially white Americans. Get black americans talking to, say, Brazilians and you’d be very surprised to hear what some of them have to say. Apparently, the U.s. is light years ahead of Brazil in anything you care to name, at least according to many of the guys I’ve met.”
That was my comment, not RDKirk’s.
I’ve no doubt that most Americans, black, white, or otherwise, believe that the U.S is more advanced than other countries. That’s evident here and in the outside world (of the U.S.). But that wasn’t what I was referring to. I don’t believe black Americans generally think America is “fair and free”, even when they are amongst foreigners; some believe they might even be treated better in foreign countries than they are in the U.S. I believe there have been some polls on this, actually, and there was always a much higher percentage of blacks who disagreed with the U.S. having some positive aspects which whites generally agreed with. If I can remember some, I’ll post.
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“some believe they might even be treated better in foreign countries than they are in the U.S. ”
I have heard accounts of this as well.
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RDKirk says:
“I do know, though, that most white Americans seem to have no clue that black Americans look back on history and see a different America from the one they see. ”
jas0nburns says:
“I disagree. I think they do know that black Americans see a different America, and not just when the look back, but also in the here and now. The same white Americans don’t really understand why. Most imagine it’s because black Americans are separatists who want government handouts.”
I agree with jas0n — whites do tend to know that blacks aren’t as happy-go-lucky about America as they are. They know they see things from a completely different lens. They tend to see blacks as welfare-riders anyway, so when a black person says anything “bad” about America or hints that they might not be comfortable with the status quo, they become an ungrateful and unpatriotic welfare-rider.
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Natasha,
My bad. I understand black Americans don’t think America is fair and free in the ways white Americans do. I was referring to the fact that even black Americans see US as more fair and free than many other countries, no matter how unfair it is to black people. I guess that’s one of the reasons many decide not to emigrate.
If your experience says otherwise, by all means, I’d love to hear more about it. In fact, this aspect is the one that I found the most surprising when it comes to black Americans- I used to believe they are different in this aspect. But it doesn’t seem to be the case.
(So in short, most of the blacks do think America is unfair to them, but believe it’s still a better country than many (most?) of the others). <- that's at least the vibe I'm getting.
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Mira,
…However, what I wrote has nothing to do with American internal problems (problems Americans face). Most of the blacks, for example, know USA is not fair, or at least not as fair as it is to whites. But when it comes to comparing USA to other countries, I must say many blacks and other non-whites (as far as I can tell) do think USA is a better place to live with more opportunities. This was witnessed several times on this blog.”
Same response to Thad’s comment: I agree. I wasn’t talking about blacks believing that the U.S. is a more technologically-advanced, “first world” country, and thinking that other countries, especially if they are non-Western European, are generally not that great of places to live. I know this, believe me. I was talking about the fair part.
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I guess I already answered your comment, Mira, but this:
“I was referring to the fact that even black Americans see US as more fair and free than many other countries, no matter how unfair it is to black people. I guess that’s one of the reasons many decide not to emigrate. “
No, they don’t emigrate because they believe their standard of living will go down. Americans are very accustomed to their technological perks and could never do without them. I guess it’s a fair trade-off for them, in the U.S., because at least they won’t be sick and starving with no medicine in a “Third World, backward” country.
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First off, privileges are conferred by a higher authority. Advantages are either won (fairyly or not) or connate (a 7 footer will always be able to dunk on your grandmother.)
This concept of privilege, and these lists, have gotten out of hand, and seem to be stand-ins for the general idea of cultural dominance, hegemony, suzerainty.
I have to quibble with alot of thr specific points, as well:
– Seeing your nation as “default” – it is normal, everybody else is “different”.
It’s common to view yoru cultural, at least on a very local level, if not beyond, this way. This happens plenty throughout the world. I will admit, though, that the US is fairly uninterested in pop-culture coming from outside teh US. But that’s mainly because US pop-culture is so huge, varied adn all-consuming – we don’t *need* to pay attention to anything else to get our fix.
– Assuming your cultural norms are universal.
Other cultures do this too.
– Not knowing what is like to have war in your homeland.
First of all, in October of 1962, this almost popped off. Like, we were hours away from not only this, but destroying the whole world. Eschewing this was not a privilege, it was due to stuff the US power structure had fought and worked long and hard to be able to do (develop a strong military that could fend off threats.) That is an advantage. Privileges are granted by someoen or something else.
– Expecting people in other countries to speak your language when you travel abroad.
This is inaccurate, as far as I’m concerned, and nothing more than an ugly stereotype about Americans who travel.
– Assuming everybody knows, or should know, your culture (even things like the “American Idol” contestants).
I dispute how widespread this is.
– Assuming nobody else has any of the technological advantages you have – like not knowing how to use a computer or even an oven.
I actually would guess that this is may be true. (Notice I said guess – I’m using my own intuition here as much as teh original author is using theirs.)
– Believing everything you see on the news, even though it is told from the American point of view and is not a universal truth.
In 2010, I’m certain this is not as widespread as it may have been in the past.
– Assuming everybody wants to live in America, since it is the best place to live (even without universal health care).
I can see this one.
– Seeing people from other countries as inferior to you, even if they are highly educated and successful.
Oh please. We can go on for days about cultural chauvanism. The US did *not* invent this.
– Having plenty of movies and TV shows in your language, full of people from your country, showing your culture and way of life.
This US invented TV and film, and i sprobably teh biggest worldwide market for it, because this a is a rich country. This wasn’t handed down to this country from heaven.
– Becoming famous or successful much more easily even if you suck at what you do.
Byproduct of a strong economy. It’ll be China and India’s turn next.
– Assuming everyone on the Internet is American.
Again, and this goes for alot on this list, this comes from the fact that Al Gore invented the internet (please laugh.) Point being, it started here, it proliferated itself here, this is the largest market for PC’s. These types of technological advances are byproducts of a dynaic economy, plus alot of freedom to engage in research. You can’t privilege yourself.
– Believing everybody else wants to adopt the American way of life. If they do not, there is something wrong with them. If they do not, America is going make them.
I can see this one. This is especially true of American Conservatives.
– You can take the liberty of shortening or changing people’s names if they are hard for you to pronounce.
Balogna. In 2010, you can’t just shorten someone’s name in a serious, non-playful way. And if it’s being done playfully, it’s usually a friend, or maybe a sleberity, but that short of name shortening is part of current American pop-culture and applies to many people (J.Lo, Brangelina, etc.)
– Believing America is fair and free. Everybody else lives in a mess.
This seem sto cover a wide range of ideas, in just two sentences. First, many thoughtful peopel have good reason to believe the US is at least fairer adn freere than many other countries. Only some conservatives and idiots think the US is Shangri-La. But I will grant you that many Americans probably do think everyone else lives in a mess.
– Assuming everybody wants the USA to help them.
This is probably mostly an a middle adn upper middle class notion. Further, this is not a privilege. Nothing is being granted to Americans to think this way.
– Seeing the USA as the best nation there is and being confused when others feel the same about their own countries.
Now you’ve told on yourself by admitting that other feel this way too.
– Being confused about people who do not like the USA or those who think it is not perfect. They must be jealous!
See above.
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“some[blacks] believe they might even be treated better in foreign countries than they are in the U.S. ”
I remember a site on black’s point of view in the pacific war. At the end of the war, they found out that while white Australians were particularly prejudiced against dark skinned aboriginals, black G.I. were happily married to white wives and accepted.
Their American and liberator status bypassed the prejudice against dark skins.
Also, it was reported that , during the war, whenever Australians witnessed ill treatment of black soldiers by white soldiers on sole basis of skin colors, they would stand up against it.
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Scipio Africanus,
I never said others don’t feel the same, but others don’t have the same power. It’s like saying some blacks are racist. True, but they don’t have as much power as whites so their racism can’t harm as many people as white racism can.
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Mira,
I responded to alot of what you posted, so I don’t know if you’re replying to the totality of it, or to a specific point I made?
But to go with your example, I’m actually *not* a believer in the whole institutional power requirement for something being racist. I think that was originally a crafty way to definie racism in order to be able to put it all on white people and absolve any non-white person from being labelled racist. To me, that was a sign of a lack of honest creativity in forming Race Theory back in the 60’s and 70’s.
It was *true* that white peopel did and do control the levers of power in this country, and that most racism was unilateral. But, to me, that’s not a requirement. That was just the way American-style racism played out. When black and Mexican hoodlums target each other for violence, strictly because of each others’ race, that’s racist violence, to me. Yet they both remain institutionally marginal groups. That’s just an example.
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@Mira
Yes, the American media can (poorly) communicate the (rich white) American POV to a wide international audience, but how does this privilege Americans? If there’s no benefit to the vast majority Americans, then it’s not privilege, and that’s where I think this argument breaks down. I’m not saying that Americans don’t have privilege; maybe they do. I’m saying that the things you list aren’t an expression of privilege.
In response to your other comment, I’m open to the idea of American privilege as a result of the projection of power in the political, economic or military spheres. I see from another comment that these topics were more painful for you to address, but I think that you’d have a much better case for American privilege there.
The nickname thing, again, doesn’t indicate privilege because (as far as I’ve seen) it has nothing to do with being American. Even if you can show that this happens, this has to do with language, not nationality. In my experience, pressure to change your name doesn’t happen, and it sounds like it didn’t happen to you. People have a hard time saying my name, so I changed to my other name and shortened it.
On a tangent, Native English speakers are highly privileged in the international community, mainly because of Great Britain’s history of colonialism.
Thanks for engaging in this discussion. It must be very time consuming to answer all these comments.
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“When black and Mexican hoodlums target each other for violence, strictly because of each others’ race, that’s racist violence, to me.”
I think the racism = power plus prejudice thing works just fine. Why shouldn’t there be a distinction between racial prejudice and racial prejudice by a dominant group? And if there’s nothing wrong with that, why shouldn’t the term racism serve as a shorthand distinction.
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“Why shouldn’t there be a distinction between racial prejudice and racial prejudice by a dominant group? And if there’s nothing wrong with that, why shouldn’t the term racism serve as a shorthand distinction.”
Because it’s racial prejudice either way, even just going by what you just said.
I got curious after I typed this post and ran to Wikipedia to see how they deal with this. I found this sentence,which makes alot of sense to me:
“Institutional racism is one of three forms of racism: (i) Personally-mediated, (ii) internalized, and (iii) institutional.”
I’m not saying that people cannot suffer racism at the institutional level. But the example I raised about the blacks and Mexicans seems to fall under personally-mediated racism.
My problem is that alot of people, seemingly on the left, have been trying to do away with the idea personally-mediated racism, and trying to roll up internailized racism into institutional racism, leaving a good-guy/bad-guy dichotomy, where black folks, by definition, are incapable of bad.
That is really intellectually dishonest and immature, to me.
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“My problem is that alot of people, seemingly on the left, have been trying to do away with the idea personally-mediated racism, and trying to roll up internailized racism into institutional racism, leaving a good-guy/bad-guy dichotomy, where black folks, by definition, are incapable of bad.”
I don’t think it’s that simple.
institutional racism does generate internalized racism. I don;t think there is a push to “roll them up” but they are related obviously.
Also, nobody said racial prejudice was good, or not as bad as racism. I think the point is that right now it really is white people who need to be doing the SELF reflecting when it comes to racism as we are the dominant group so it matters way, way more when we act on our prejudice. it won’t do any good for us to believe it’s an issue all races share equal responsibility for. we are the main beneficiaries of white supremacy and we suffer the least, therefore the rhetoric at this point should be aimed directly at us. Even if it isn’t “fair” in the simplest sense of the word.
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@Katie
To spin it a bit further, many native English speakers would be surpised how many non-native speakers do at least understand English. And they might even speak it much better than what they would make an effort to do in their own country to an English only speaker.
The problem is that a lot of Americans assume that if you speak with an accent you also think and act with an accent.
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@Femi
How did you make that that quote? Is there a shortcut or did you hardcode all the formatting?
It’s interesting that you say that native English speakers are surprised how many people understand English, since I’ve heard the opposite as well, even in Mira’s post. On one hand, Anglophones expect everyone to speak English, and on the other, they are surprised when people can. In my experience, people are generally offended when others make assumptions about them, whether those assumptions turn out to be true or false.
I think the thing about accents is really true across countries. I’ve had people tell me that my way of thinking is very “cute” when actually it’s my way of speaking in a language I haven’t yet mastered. Because English is often the language used in business and tourism, English speakers get the advantage here. It’s very frustrating to have a complex idea that you can’t quite articulate fully.
Accent and dialect is a big issue even within countries.
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It’s not that I don’t like it, Mira, it’s that “power” is far too vague a definition. Everytime you cause something to happen, you canbe said to have power, so when does power = privilege, exactly?
This isn’t a small point, btw, because 90% of the threads here end up talking about how this group or that group is privileged. So one can reasonably ask, “What the hell is privilege?”
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“some believe they might even be treated better in foreign countries than they are in the U.S. ”
No doubt. Not the majority, I wager.
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@SA
First off, privileges are conferred by a higher authority. Advantages are either won (fairyly or not) or connate…
Ahn. Now we’re getting somewhere.
So who gives white privilege, then?
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SA sez:
But to go with your example, I’m actually *not* a believer in the whole institutional power requirement for something being racist. I think that was originally a crafty way to definie racism in order to be able to put it all on white people and absolve any non-white person from being labelled racist. To me, that was a sign of a lack of honest creativity in forming Race Theory back in the 60′s and 70′s.
LOL! Wonderful!
Y’know, everytime I give Brazilians that definition of racism (“prejudice + power”), black, white, or brown, they look at me like I just feel down the proverbial rabbit hole.
@Jason
Why shouldn’t there be a distinction between racial prejudice and racial prejudice by a dominant group?
Because what you’re TRYING to articulate, it seems, is that racism, distinct from prejudice, is a sociological phenomenon.
That’s fair enough. The problem is that it’s a very poor view of society that sees it only as encoded in social institutional power. What SA sez is correct: social power extends beyond the dominant institutions in society: a black and mexican gangfight can indeed include elements of empowered prejudice, for all that such power may not be hegemonic.
SA is right in that this “prejudice + power” definition is a lazy man’s way out, apparently developed to give undergraduate students a nice “just so” definition of racism without requiring them to strain their brains too much.
Oh, by the way, Brazil has RARELY had instituionalized racism. And yet we are an intensely racist country, by any stretch of the imagination. So…?
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Excellent post, Mira! Thank you.
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RDKirk says:
“I do know, though, that most white Americans seem to have no clue that black Americans look back on history and see a different America from the one they see. ”
jas0nburns says:
“I disagree. I think they do know that black Americans see a different America, and not just when the look back, but also in the here and now. The same white Americans don’t really understand why. Most imagine it’s because black Americans are separatists who want government handouts.”
I agree with jas0n — whites do tend to know that blacks aren’t as happy-go-lucky about America as they are. They know they see things from a completely different lens. They tend to see blacks as welfare-riders anyway, so when a black person says anything “bad” about America or hints that they might not be comfortable with the status quo, they become an ungrateful and unpatriotic welfare-rider.
RDKirk responds:
The white American of the War and Boomer generations was born and raised in apartheid, whether in the north or in the south. The significance of this should not be overlooked.
The person raised in a condition where apartheid was “normalcy” doesn’t believe there is any different America from the one that they were raised in. They have no concept of their “truth” not being THE truth. This goes along with all the “assumptions” about Americans that Mira has listed–that is the world they KNOW.
When you say, “the same white Americans don’t really understand why,” the reason they don’t understand is because they don’t believe it. If a black American denies that the 50s were an ideal decade, the white American assumes the black American is deliberately lying, because he KNOWS that’s not true and he KNOWS everyone else must KNOW things the same way he KNOWS things…and is thus deliberately lying to say otherwise.
If you get into that conversation with the average white Boomer, the reaction you get is equivalent to, “You’re lying!” You don’t even get an acknowledgment of, “Maybe it was that way from your point of view.” You get, “You’re lying.” They’re honest about that: The 50s were “Happy Days.”
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I’m not gonna lie, some of that list applies to me! Some of us can be so wrapped up in our “American bubble” that the rest of the world does not compute.
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@Katie
I think wasn’t clear enough. Let me rephrase – a lot of Anglophones would be surprised how many more people than they might expect from hearsay or even personal experience as a tourist do at least understand English. (I admit that this a wink especially to my fellow French citizens ;)) Some people actually feed into the stereotype by not making any effort to have a conversation in English in their countries although they have good enough knowledge of English.
Although it can lead to awkward situations and tensions (and even more stereotypes), I have to admit that they have a point. If you come to my country with the least knowledge about the most important feature of a culture – communication – I have to assume that you’re not sincerely interested in my culture and its people.
For the quote, you have to put the text inside
but without the blanks in between.
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Explaining this quote thing never works…;)
blockquote in between … text… and then /blockquote in between
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Sorry, never mind. <
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@ Scipio Africanus:
– “Seeing the USA as the best nation there is and being confused when others feel the same about their own countries.”
Now you’ve told on yourself by admitting that other feel this way too.
– “Being confused about people who do not like the USA or those who think it is not perfect. They must be jealous!”
See above.
I think there’s a difference between USA people seeing it as the best country and the way non-USians might see their own country as the best.
I live in Australia, which is a pretty damn good place to live. While many of us here would see Australia as the best country in the world FOR US, I think there is a bit more sense that it is subjective. This is partly because we are constantly exposed to the behemoth of US culture trumpeting its awesomeness, as well as the knowledge that we are nowhere near being the social/political centre of the world. I’d guess that most other people around the world see their countries in a similar way.
The impression that I constantly get from a great many Americans, however, is that it is virtually beyond question that the US is the best. The idea, for example, that many European nations could have figured out the health care thing better than the US, is almost treasonous in some quarters.
Likewise, so many still believe that Islamic terrorists hate the US because of jealousy at how awesome the US is. Not at all because the US ever did anything wrong, because the US is not capable of doing anything wrong.
When Jeremiah Wright said “God DAMN America!” he received almost universal condemnation as a hateful radical, and became political poison for Obama. Seemingly the only people who would possibly defend him would be either black or far left or both. Most other Western countries have a far greater capacity for national critical self-reflection; an Aboriginal leader saying “God DAMN Australia!” would hardly raise a eyebrow over here.
My problem is that alot of people, seemingly on the left, have been trying to do away with the idea personally-mediated racism, and trying to roll up internailized racism into institutional racism, leaving a good-guy/bad-guy dichotomy, where black folks, by definition, are incapable of bad.
That is really intellectually dishonest and immature, to me.
I’m with you all the way on this one. Not that I think such people would articulate it quite this clearly, but it’s certainly a notion that seeps into a lot of left-wing discourse on race. (I’m on the left myself, btw.) I’ve certainly come across that mentality among people on this blog.
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Femi–
If you come to my country with the least knowledge about the most important feature of a culture – communication – I have to assume that you’re not sincerely interested in my culture and its people.
RDKirk–
That would be a terribly wrong assumption to make. The fact that I spent considerable money to visit your country–rather than simply go to Disneyland–indicates that I have some sincere interest.
I still have on my list to visit Vietnam and India, and to revisit Korea, the Philippines, and Thailand. I’d also like to visit Senegal. Sorry, but I’m not going to get around to learning all those languages before I do.
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@rdkirk
Are these the same white boomers that witnessed the civil rights movement? Talking about the 60’s as a “turbulent time” has become a huge cliche’. My mother is a boomer and she witnessed the kent state shootings. So how then can white boomers plead ignorance? Even if they believe that black americans are over-sensitive complainers, they can’t exactly have not noticed civil rights.
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RDKirk
That would be a terribly wrong assumption to make. The fact that I spent considerable money to visit your country–rather than simply go to Disneyland–indicates that I have some sincere interest.
No, actually, that indicates you have American (Western) privilege.
Do you think people in, say, my country can “simply go to Disneyland” OR go ANYWHERE no matter how much they want, or how much they are interested in visiting other cultures?
Also, even if they can travel they don’t expect people in Philippines or Thailand or USA to speak their language.
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“Because what you’re TRYING to articulate, it seems, is that racism, distinct from prejudice, is a sociological phenomenon.”
kind of, more like racism is racial prejudice given wings and an environment in which to thrive.
and what is the sociological component in a black vs. mexican gangfight?
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[…] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Isabelle A., MARSHIE and Ankhesen Mié, Louise. Louise said: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/09/16/american-privilege/ what do americans on my tweetlist think of this? […]
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This was very helpful for me to understand your article
http://community.livejournal.com/ontd_feminism/367434.html?thread=27794506#t27794506
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“No, actually, that indicates you have American (Western) privilege.
Do you think people in, say, my country can “simply go to Disneyland” OR go ANYWHERE no matter how much they want, or how much they are interested in visiting other cultures?”
Do you think I can? and before you single me out again and say “well that’s too bad if you personally can’t afford it but most Americans can….”
I’m not special. I’m an American. I know I’m privileged, or at least I thought I was until I read your list and realized most of it doesn’t apply to me.
It seems like you are saying we have it so much better over here, but at the same time we are assholes for thinking we have it so much better over here.
also, how dare you Americans think we need your help, unless there’s a flood or an earthquake or a band of thugs takes over our country then you better get your asses over here and bail us out pronto. then get the fuck out.
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I call this the “money fallacy”.
As I mentioned before, many Americans have a strong tendency to weigh virtually everything in monetary value. Believe it or not, there are other cultures in this world which do not function like that. The true motivation of someone spending his money on something can never be proven. Money does not buy you a free ticket for dropping your respect for the locals or for ignoring local custom. In many cultures, that is.
Then again, it’s so easy (and free of charge) to read up on at least a few catchphrases and local specifics. Even if it’s broken and clumsy. That kind of gesture does show at least an effort. Waving with green banknotes doesn’t.
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Then again, it’s so easy (and free of charge) to read up on at least a few catchphrases and local specifics. Even if it’s broken and clumsy. That kind of gesture does show at least an effort. Waving with green banknotes doesn’t.
This is true! People here are happy (sometimes too happy) when somebody takes an effort to learn at least a few words! Sadly, most of the Americans (westerners?) don’t show any interest in learning any words.
And NOT TO MENTION those who travel to other countries without any respect for the people, but because of the monuments THEY see as something belonging to THEM, and not caring or respecting the people (example: Greece. Many westerners seem to think Ancient Greece and its monuments in some way belong to them, and are often not crazy about Greek people. Similarly: Egypt for non-white westerners.)
(Note: I am not saying RDKirk is one of those tourists, but since we’re talking about tourism, I do have to mention this).
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I did not have time to read ALL the comments:), so I apologize if some of this has already been said:
I think the list applies to a VERY SMALL portion of the American public. America has such a mix of cultures and languages, that most of us do not ascribe to the beliefs listed. For example, I think most of us do not assume everyone on the internet is American (that’s what’s so great about the internet, you get so many different points of view)! Also, for me at least, I don’t expect everyone in my CITY to speak English, so why would I EXPECT someone in another country to? There are more, but my point is these beliefs come with a lack of knowledge; in other words, ignorant people who don’t know better will think these things, and while America has plenty of them, we’re not all like that, not even close:)
Peace
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According to Wiki, the median household income in the Unites States of America is $49,777. So if there were two wage earners, both making equal salaries, the breakdown might look something like this:
Daddy: $25,000 a year
Mommy: $25,000 a year
Add a kid or two to the mix, and that’s just about enough money to get by.
That doesn’t leave much room for traveling whenever or wherever one chooses.
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King,
What are you talking about? What difference does it make whether you have enough money to travel? We’re talking about American privilege.
This is uncomfortably close to “I don’t have white privilege, I am poor!” argument none black (non-white) person likes to hear (or cares about for that matter) <- not that I blame them.
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“What difference does it make whether you have enough money to travel? ”
is there another reason why people in your country couldn’t go to Disneyland?
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is there another reason why people in your country couldn’t go to Disneyland?
Yes. If US doesn’t want to let you in (which often happens). Getting a visa in is an extremely humiliating procedure that lets you know on every step that you’re less than human and that you should be happy if a country accepts you to spend your hard earned money in it.
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“What are you talking about? What difference does it make whether you have enough money to travel? We’re talking about American privilege.”
So then, what makes it an “American” Privilege if most Americans can’t actually do it? How do non-travelers benefit from the ability of the upper class to travel.? Is the benefit transferrable?
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@ES
I think there’s a difference between USA people seeing it as the best country and the way non-USians might see their own country as the best.
Cosign!
There’s patriotism everywhere, but in my experience, only Americans expect the rest of the world to share their patriotism.
Furthermore, I’m unaware of any other relatively advanced democracy (Brazil included) where significant parts of the political leadership and punditry consider criticism of the nation to be treason.
For example, even a gringo like me can comment ironically that “Brazil is the country of the future… and always will be!” and among Brazilian patriots, I’ll generally get a belly laugh, a slap on the back, and the affirmation that things are getting better and will soon be MUCH better.
Imagine a similar reaction from American patriots.
@Jason
Do you think I can? and before you single me out again and say “well that’s too bad if you personally can’t afford it but most Americans can….”
Many white americans do not have the financial wherewithall to make white privilege stick, and yet we don’t think they don’t have it.
I’m interested in why you apparently think class conditions imperial privilege but not racial privilege, Jason.
also, how dare you Americans think we need your help, unless there’s a flood or an earthquake or a band of thugs takes over our country then you better get your asses over here and bail us out pronto. then get the fuck out.
Just speaking for Brazil, Jason, I’d think we’d gladly give back the hundreds of millions the U.S. has gave us in disintrested foreign aid if we could also give back the BILLIONS you folks spent on propping up a military regime full of corrupt torturers for 25 years.
The fact that you can be willfully ignorant about how your country’s foreign policy actually works, believing that the rest of the world owes you something and getting indignant when they criticize you is also an American privilege.
And here’s another question that portrays your basic ignorance of how the world works:
is there another reason why people in your country couldn’t go to Disneyland?
You seem to think that just anyone can wander around the world, given the right amount of cash.
I’m an American citizen and both my wife and I are university professors. By any reasonable measure, we are middle class and probably in the upper 5% of the Brazilian population when it comes to cash.
But we can’t get a tourist visa for my mother-in-law, a retired school teacher – to go up to the States to visit my family for Christmas.
We’ve tried twice and the excuse is always “She doesn’t make enough money and American law requires us to see each individual as a potential immigrant”.
So no, it’s not just a matter of money. Even with the sponsorhip of two people who make more than 95% of the Brazilian population, a retired Brazilian school teacher CANNOT go to Disneyland.
The fact that you are ignorant about this situation – which every non-American outside of Western Europe understands full well – is another measure of your American privilege. You live in a mental world where anyone can bop about the landscape, provided they have a plane ticket to do so.
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Did you mean that it’s easier to go more places with an U.S. passport?
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@Femi
Thanks! It’s just the html blockquote tag. 🙂
I have to admit, that you mentioned France really surprised me, because most Americans I know who went to France tried to use their French, only to get a scornful look and “Just speak English” back at them. Definitely Anglophone privilege exists, but the idea that someone should be proficient in a culture’s language before visiting seems unreasonable.
No matter how you slice it, tourists are annoying. I don’t think that most people go to America to learn about its culture and its people. They go to look at famous things they’ve heard about.
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jas0nburns
@rdkirk
Are these the same white boomers that witnessed the civil rights movement? Talking about the 60′s as a “turbulent time” has become a huge cliche’. My mother is a boomer and she witnessed the kent state shootings. So how then can white boomers plead ignorance? Even if they believe that black americans are over-sensitive complainers, they can’t exactly have not noticed civil rights.
@jas0nburns,
I’m not trying to speak for RDKirk at all but you posed a logical question. One thing I’ve learned is that racism makes people illogical. I’ve run into a number of white Americans who were adults during the 60s civil rights movement yet claim total ignorance of it. For them, the 60s was a turbulent time because of the Vietnam war, changing sexual mores, and the (white) women’s liberation movement. I’m not speaking about all older white Americans, just these specific ones.
They claim not to understand why black people in the U.S. don’t call themselves “just Americans.” They see black Americans as the ones who are, and always have been, separatists-by-choice. They cling to this conviction despite growing up in heavily-segregated, all-white enclaves. They knew nothing about Brown v. Board of Education and the Little Rock Nine in the ’50s or the Voting Rights Act and Loving v. the State of Virginia in the 60s, etc., despite being alive through all of it. They were unfamiliar with the March on Washington…although curiously knowledgeable about one single snippet of Dr. ML King’s “I have a dream” speech about content of character – which they love to cite to show how blacks are racist.
These people aren’t all fringe, Tea Partiers btw. They span the political spectrum. Some of them consider themselves well-educated because they are college graduates who travel a lot and actively follow the news…although they apparently failed to understand much of what they saw, read, and heard. Their specific cocoons of privilege remained unassailed by fact.
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Did you mean that it’s easier to go more places with an U.S. passport?
Yes. This is news to you, is it?
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So then, what makes it an “American” Privilege if most Americans can’t actually do it? How do non-travelers benefit from the ability of the upper class to travel.? Is the benefit transferrable?
Let’s put this in another context and see if it shakes anything loose up there:
How did whites who were too poor to own slaves bennefit from slavery?
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“Did you mean that it’s easier to go more places with an U.S. passport?
Yes. This is news to you, is it?”
This, I knew.
I just wanted to know if this was the main argument for “Americans can travel when and where they want to.”
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@hm
I don’t excuse it, but I can see why some whites see blacks as separatists-by choice. Not because that’s the reality but because it may seem that way on the surface if you haven’t given the matter much thought.
But how do you not notice all the riots that occurred in most major American cities throughout the 1960’s. Not buying it.
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I found the French quite accommodating when I spoke French. In the U.S., however, depending on one’s accent, one can speak coherent English and some Americans will say, “Speak English!” or “Is there someone I can speak to who speaks English?!” … followed by an occasional diatribe about [slur] immigrants who “come to this country and can’t even speak the language.”
A variation of this is some people in the U.S. not knowing which countries are English-speaking. I’ll never forget the blond-haired, blue-eyed Australian who spoke with disgust about how many USians would (1) ask him where he was from and then (2) compliment him on how well he spoke English. He didn’t mind the question. It was the follow-up comment that he found mind-boggling.
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But how do you not notice all the riots that occurred in most major American cities throughout the 1960′s.
@jas0n
Willful ignorance.
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“Let’s put this in another context and see if it shakes anything loose up there:
How did whites who were too poor to own slaves bennefit from slavery?
If the argument is based on an American Passport making it easier to enter more countries worldwide, then I understand the argument. If it’s about actually having the means to travel, then I do not.
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I just wanted to know if this was the main argument for “Americans can travel when and where they want to.”
It’s not just the passport, of course, it’s a whole set of understanding that goes with it. To wit, that one isn’t a terrorist f***wad (odd, because the U.S. has produced many terrorists), that one isn’t a visa overstayer (odd, because Americans overstay visas all the time), that one isn’t a potential immigrant (and yes, Americans do illegally immigrate)…
The passport itself is just a convenient representation of all this.
HM
I found the French quite accommodating when I spoke French. In the U.S., however, depending on one’s accent, one can speak coherent English and some Americans will say, “Speak English!” or “Is there someone I can speak to who speaks English?!” … followed by an occasional diatribe about [slur] immigrants who “come to this country and can’t even speak the language.”
Well, that’s just butt-headed, garden variety ethnocentrism in that instance. American privilege is going to another country and expecting the NATIVES to speak English.
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@Thaddeus
It is butt-headed behavior, agreed. But I feel what I wrote also ties in with this part of Mira’s post:
Seeing people from other countries as inferior to you, even if they are highly educated and successful.
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jas0nburns said:
Are these the same white boomers that witnessed the civil rights movement? Talking about the 60′s as a “turbulent time” has become a huge cliche’. My mother is a boomer and she witnessed the kent state shootings. So how then can white boomers plead ignorance? Even if they believe that black americans are over-sensitive complainers, they can’t exactly have not noticed civil rights.
RDKirk responds:
They have romanticized the pre-civil rights days in their own minds. They do not believe there was anything wrong with Jim Crow, thus Civil Rights agitation was unnecessary and wrong. Yes, they remember “Civil Rights” days…the way way they look at Obama now is the way they looked at Martin Luther King then, and the way they still consider Martin Luther King.
Except that now they’re doing something new: Glen Beck is re-writing the Civil Rights Era to say that it was all done by the Republicans and that Martin Luther King was only saying what Republicans said then and have been saying all along. So now the new idea is that Republicans invented Civil Rights.
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“It’s not just the passport, of course, it’s a whole set of understanding that goes with it”
Then, based on that, I’d agree that it is a privilege – although one shared by many other economically developed countries as well. It’s also Swiss, Canadian, and Belgium privilege. That doesn’t make it any less of a privilege, of course.
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Hm,
Seeing people from other countries as inferior to you
This is almost as universal as the first thing I listed. People in my country, for example, are guilty as charged for this one. But the difference is that US have more power and it and its citizens can do more harm with this attitude than the other people.
It’s like we know there are black racists but they don’t have as much power as white racist have so they can’t do much harm.
As for French people, they are extremely proud of their language and are not crazy about English. Remember, not THAT long time ago, French was lingua franca.
But I didn’t notice what you described about French people; in fact, many were happy to see I try to communicate with them in French, no matter how poorly. But the thing is, they knew I wasn’t a native English speaker so maybe that has something to do with it.
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King,
Like I wrote, many of the things listed apply to West* in general.
Remember, to somebody like me, there’s no much difference between US and Western privilege. (I have neither) So subtle and less subtle differences between those are not my main concern (though I am not implying Western privilege is the same as US privilege- Americans have privileges that others don’t have, not even other Westerners).
*Whoever we define it, Thad…
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I mean however we define it, lol.
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@ Hm
Maybe my friends’ French skills were not as good as they thought they were, or maybe it was a regional issue.
Your second point surprises me, and maybe it’s again a regional issue. In the large cities I’ve lived in, it’s pretty much expected that you can do everything thing you need with just Spanish, and it’s not seen as shameful or bad that immigrants can’t speak English. It is possible that the person’s English was so heavily accented that it was unintelligible? That was a big issue for many people in Asian countries. They thought the Asians were just being jerks, but they didn’t realize that their language skills were such that no one could understand them.
On a tangent, I had a French friend in China complain that the Chinese had such bad English that they could barely understand him. I delicately did not mention that I could barely understand him when he spoke English, and that it was often just because I’d studied French for so long. (He was also one of the ones who complained that the Chinese pretended they couldn’t understand him. They were not pretending. His Chinese was completely unintelligible.)
For the most part, even where I’ve traveled in smaller southern cities, I’ve never heard anyone complain about immigrants not speaking English. I have heard complaints about undocumented workers, but that’s a different issue.
The Australian thing is hilarious. I’d imagine they were thinking of Austria. I’ve had tons of people confuse Thailand and Taiwan.
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Oh, about traveling in France. I had one friend say that he just spoke German the whole time so that people were nicer to him, LOL. He was a native English speaker.
Anyway, sorry that it’s pulling off on tangents, but back to the point of the article, I think that Mira brings up a good point in a recent comment that a lot of countries are guilty of these things, but that America has the power to act forcefully on its chauvinism, so it becomes more of an issue.
For America to have these chauvinistic views of the world isn’t privileged in and of itself, but when other governments have to seriously consider America’s reaction when making foreign (and even domestic!) policy, the privilege definitely comes out.
For this reason, I think that American privilege exists more in the military and political spheres, but unfortunately those were not addressed in this article, and it gave leverage for people to deny American privilege, even though it definitely exists.
It’s interesting to see China rise as a world power and start to take some of the heat off the US, since its chauvinism will start to have more teeth in the future as it develops its military and economy. The Chinese seem absolutely shocked when they are subjected to similar scrutiny as the US is.
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Mira said:
No, actually, that indicates you have American (Western) privilege.
Do you think people in, say, my country can “simply go to Disneyland” OR go ANYWHERE no matter how much they want, or how much they are interested in visiting other cultures?
RDKirk responds:
Okay, Mira, now you’re pulling a “Thad” and I have to call you on it. It’s not an “American privilege” to visit another country.
It’s also “Thad-like” for you to suggest that you did not recognize the “Disneyland” reference as meaning “there are other places in my own country to go.” You may not have a Disneyland in your country, but you probably have places in your own country that are cheaper, easier, and more pleasant for you to visit than to travel to a less-developed nation.
Femi had said, “If you come to my country with the least knowledge about the most important feature of a culture – communication – I have to assume that you’re not sincerely interested in my culture and its people.”
My response was that I have made a concerted effort to visit your country when I could have easily gone someplace else designed to be more certainly pleasing to my American mindset. But I didn’t–I chose to visit YOUR country, which I may or may not enjoy–entering a strange environment always entails some psychological (if not physical) discomfort–because I wanted to learn something about your culture and your people, not because I wanted to be entertained. I would be more certainly entertained at home.
And I’ve already spent 12 years in the Far East, so I have a clue that it’s not Disneyland.
Mira said:
Also, even if they can travel they don’t expect people in Philippines or Thailand or USA to speak their language.
RDKirk responds:
That, however, has nothing to do with my remark. Femi asserted that if a visitor did not first learn to speak the language before visiting a country it indicated he had no sincere desire to learn anything about the culture. I dispute that. It’s a bad assumption.
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Femi said:
The problem is that a lot of Americans assume that if you speak with an accent you also think and act with an accent.
RDKirk responds:
Are you saying that if you don’t sound like an American, a lot of Americans assume you might not think like an American? Why is that a problem? If you’re not American why should I assume you think like an American?
IME, it’s a problem when Americans assume that everyone should think like Americans. Of course, it’s even more of a problem when Americans assume that everyone else thinks as Americans think they SHOULD think (which is usually not the way an American would think).
Femi said:
Then again, it’s so easy (and free of charge) to read up on at least a few catchphrases and local specifics. Even if it’s broken and clumsy. That kind of gesture does show at least an effort.
RDKirk responds:
Ah. Okay, if that’s all it takes, no problem. But knowing only catchphrases is “the least knowledge about the most important feature of a culture – communication” that you derided.
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jas0nburns said:
I don’t excuse it, but I can see why some whites see blacks as separatists-by choice. Not because that’s the reality but because it may seem that way on the surface if you haven’t given the matter much thought.
But how do you not notice all the riots that occurred in most major American cities throughout the 1960′s. Not buying it.
RDKirk responds:
What are you “not buying” exactly? Are you not buying my assertion that most white Boomers believe those riots were purely the result of black people being obnoxious rather than being a natural reaction to social oppression?
They saw that there were riots…and continue believe in the core of their hearts and minds that blacks have never had any acceptable rationale for being anything but pleased as peaches to be American.
I had thought over the last 40 years that white Boomers had learned better…but in the last 2 years I’ve discovered to my dismay otherwise. I see crowds of Boomers today boiling with the same viciousness that I heard them and their parents boiling with when I marched for integration as a young child.
And they still expect me to be a “good darky” and agree with them…if I want to continue to enjoy their good graces…because they can’t see any other viewpoint as being reasonable or even moral.
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Hm said:
I found the French quite accommodating when I spoke French. In the U.S., however, depending on one’s accent, one can speak coherent English and some Americans will say, “Speak English!” or “Is there someone I can speak to who speaks English?!” … followed by an occasional diatribe about [slur] immigrants who “come to this country and can’t even speak the language.”
RDKirk responds:
I have to laugh at this because it reminds me of a very funny joke by the Indian-Canadian comedian Russell Peters. Peters’ father is an Indian immigrant to Canada who still has a very strong Indian accent.
But when the elder Peters must deal with someone who does not speak English, he berates that person (you have to hear this told in a heavy Indian accent): “Why do you come to our country and not speak our language? Speak English!”
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“How did whites who were too poor to own slaves bennefit from slavery?”
I haven’t been following all the convos that closely, but just strictly answering this question, they benefited by having a codified class-floor they were guaranteed *by law* never to fall below. They did not have a guarantee of owning slaves, or of wealth, by they were legally entitled to never be slaves themsleves.
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“I’m interested in why you apparently think class conditions imperial privilege but not racial privilege, Jason.”
Well, maybe it’s just easier for me to get my head around racial privilege because different races interact on a daily basis in my country. So I can easily envision scenarios where white privilege manifests regardless of class conditions. I can’t see it the same way with imperial privilege, unless it’s a colonial thing.
I don’t really understand how an Americans beliefs no matter how arrogant and pompous could effect someone in Serbia. There is no interaction/relationship unless he goes there, which most can’t afford to do.
For the record, I agree those earlier comments were out of line and I apologize. I am pretty ignorant when it comes to US foreign policy. So, I guess I made an example of myself.
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@RD
I meant that I’m not buying the idea that they actually believe everything has always been just peachy. Like they are totally oblivious. I think willful ignorance is different than being oblivious. willful ignorance is cowardly. It’s looking something terrible in the face and running away, refusing to deal with it. Being oblivious is just not noticing in the first place.
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RDKirk responds:
Okay, Mira, now you’re pulling a “Thad” and I have to call you on it. It’s not an “American privilege” to visit another country.
No… But it’s often Western privilege, and like I wrote in the post, many of the things listed apply to West in general.
It’s also “Thad-like” for you to suggest that you did not recognize the “Disneyland” reference as meaning “there are other places in my own country to go.”
No, I honestly thought you meant Disneyland. (blushes)
You may not have a Disneyland in your country, but you probably have places in your own country that are cheaper, easier, and more pleasant for you to visit than to travel to a less-developed nation.
Why would traveling to a less-developed nations be unpleasant?
Just for the record, I’d love to travel. If you’d ask me top 5 reasons why my country sucks, not having ability to travel would be on it. I am an archaeologist who never even visited a neighborhood Greece! (Ok, I’ll stop whining now, just I want you to know I consider anybody who can travel for whatever privilege (class, western, etc.) extremely privileged.
That, however, has nothing to do with my remark.
No, it just has to do with a point on my list, that Americans expect everybody to speak English wherever they go.
Ah. Okay, if that’s all it takes, no problem. But knowing only catchphrases is “the least knowledge about the most important feature of a culture – communication” that you derided.
It isn’t, but it shows you took an effort to learn and that you showed an interest in us (local people), and not just beautiful mountains that happen to be located on our territory, or the monuments. It’s a sign of respect, similar to one you show when you take an effort to remember somebody’s name.
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I don’t really understand how an Americans beliefs no matter how arrogant and pompous could effect someone in Serbia. There is no interaction/relationship unless he goes there, which most can’t afford to do.
Let me picture it this way: he (an American) doesn’t need to go to Serbia. American bombs can, and that’s more of an interaction than we ever wanted.
Let me picture it less drastically: what Americans think affects the WHOLE WORLD due to globalization. If I think Mexicans are bad (I don’t, but if I did), I would do that because American media told me to. If I think Chinese are bad (I don’t), I would do that because American media told me to. If I think Serbs are bad, I (well, not I, but somebody on another side of the world) would think that because American media told him to.
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@Mira,
You and I have the same experience of the French. I think you may have mixed me up with Katie, who said:
My response was to the double standard I’ve encountered numerous times in the U.S., not necessarily articulated by Katie: if Americans go abroad without knowing the language, it’s understandable, but anyone who comes to America better know English and speak it without a particular accent. Underlying such a double standard is the expectation to be accommodated…whether abroad or Stateside. To me, such a mentality reveals a desire not to go out of the comfort zone by learning another language (even a little bit) or even being tolerant of English spoken differently from how one grew up hearing it – some see listening to certain accents as too much work.
I agree that seeing people from other countries as inferior is not peculiar to the U.S. The difference, for me, is that, as someone who hails from a Third World country I am aware that others do see me and my country as inferior – including by some of the US/Canadian/European ex-pats living there. I agree that while the U.S. is not unique its self-exaltation, it’s one of the select few countries who have the power to do more harm with such an attitude.
I would also though, in my humble opinion, that disregard of individual intelligence and academic/professional achievement isn’t universal. In my country of origin, an educated, successful immigrant would not be seen as inferior. By contrast, in the U.S., the perception of inferiority appears to depend on the immigrant’s country of origin. It seems some see certain countries as equal (e.g., England or Canada) and its citizens face fewer adverse reactions, while others, esp. non-white, Third World ones, run smack into a solid wall of ignorance and contempt.
I think both the lack of awareness of other perspectives and the perception of certain foreigners as inferior, regardless of education and/or success, has a lot to do with the disproportionate information flow. As you’ve noted, much American media is disseminated world-wide. Comparatively little, especially media created Third World non-whites, flows into the U.S. and what does is often marginalized rather than mainstreamed, making it less accessible to the average American than the reverse is true for people in my country. The production and control of knowledge is, to me, a sign of privilege. They don’t have to be aware of or respectful toward other cultures because they don’t have to be.
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Yes, that can be all it takes. When it comes to communication it’s not always “black or white”. If you make at least an effort in broken ….. (whatever language, fill in the gap), the other person is more likely to warm up and might even reply in broken English. And suddenly you might get into a conversation between broken English and broken …. about cultural and political details of their country you would otherwise never get in genuine form (or only as pre-formatted and packaged info from a tour guide.) That’s something money can’t buy.
What I meant to say about the accent. It is perceived by many as a handicap. Almost as if the brain is as “dysfunctional” or untrained as the tongue of someone who doesn’t speak English every day. When I worked in the US I was dismissed by half of the people there as soon as I opened my mouth. It seemed like they were so thrown off by my accent that they didn’t even listen to the content. I had enough confirmation that my accent is not incomprehensible, mainly from minorities there, also US citizens. It’s not that some thought “he doesn’t talk like us so he doesn’t think American”. They thought “he doesn’t talk like us, so he’s incompetent, not even worth listening to.”
Btw I was told that my English accent sounds like a mixture of British and French but clear and comprehensible.
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SA sez:
I haven’t been following all the convos that closely, but just strictly answering this question, they benefited by having a codified class-floor they were guaranteed *by law* never to fall below. They did not have a guarantee of owning slaves, or of wealth, by they were legally entitled to never be slaves themsleves.
And you think that the superior international mobility accorded to Americans doesn’t positively effect your country’s economy? You think that having your business class be able to go pretty much wherever it wants doesn’t come back to you somehow?
The point is these privileges create benefits for you even if you don’t benefit from them directly.
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@Jason
Well, maybe it’s just easier for me to get my head around racial privilege because different races interact on a daily basis in my country.
And classes DON’T…?
Jason, it’s easier to see race because American never shuts up about it, but I very much doubt that you’ve ever really stopped to contemplate class. It’s your country’s great taboo subject.
That’s why you have a hard time seeing its effects.
I don’t really understand how an Americans beliefs no matter how arrogant and pompous could effect someone in Serbia. There is no interaction/relationship unless he goes there, which most can’t afford to do.
Jason, you realize that your country BOMBED THE S*** out of Serbia not more than 12 years ago…?
I mean HELLO…?!
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“And classes DON’T…?”
I didn’t say it was easier to see racial privilege than class privilege.
I said it was easier for me to see the lines that separate racial privilege from class privilege. I’m having trouble seeing the lines that separate class privilege from imperial privilege.
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Jason, you buy stuff at Walmart, I take it? how do you think they get those cotton shirts so cheap that you, a member of the American working class can buy them, hmmm?
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I think the difference is more what is expected of immigrants versus what is expected of tourists. I would have a much higher expectation that an immigrant to a country would learn its language than that a tourist would.
I also suspect that you are exaggerating about the American expectations for non-native English speakers, mainly because it doesn’t match my experiences in America at all. Are your views based on your personal experience? I’d be interested to hear the particulars of what happened to you or those you know in the United States. The US government and businesses do try to make services available in the native languages of significant immigrant communities.
The immigration and language issue is difficult, because the common language of the United States is English, and no matter how much society tries to accommodate those who are not English speakers, they will never have equal ability to navigate US society. Depending on their age and support network, it may be to their best advantage to learn English.
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This has been exhausting. 800 comments later (150+ here and 600+ at livejournal) I could definitely say I learned a few things.
First thing I learned is how difficult it is to discuss privilege with people who deny their privilege.
So if I ever did something like that to any commenter here, I apologize. I probably apologized the first time, but I apologize again.
It’s exhausting and it’s not 1% of what you’re going through every day.
I also learned what Abagond meant when he said he never replies to comments that make him angry straight away, but that he waits to calm down.
This post generated a lot of interest, even more than I hoped. But it surprised me to see that the people who disagreed with it the most were black (and other non-white American POC) who (back at LJ) tried everything to derail the argument about American (western) privilege in a similar fashion whites often use to derail discussion on white privilege.
Namely, there were many people who used “I can’t have American privilege, I am black” argument the same way whites say “I am poor, I don’t have white privilege”. I know people don’t notice their privilege, but for some reason I thought non-whites would be more ready to accept it’s possible to be discriminated based on one criteria but to still have some form of privilege.
I know black American experience is not the same as white American experience, and that blacks suffer a lot. But it doesn’t mean they don’t have American privilege. No matter how oppressed they are, they still enjoy some privilege non-Americans (or non-Westerners) don’t. Maybe this privilege means nothing, but in similar fashion, many whites claim white privilege means nothing to them if they are poor, female, gay, Jewish, etc., and this is (rightfully) never taken as an excuse.
So why is any different for other forms of privilege?
The comments of this sorts mainly appeared on LJ board and not here. I wonder why. Do people here know me better, or are you just not wanting to hurt my feelings? Please, tell.
In any case, the second thing I learned is that it takes much, much more than 500 words to describe American privilege. 10 posts or even a whole blog is not enough.
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I mean, 500 words is not enough for any for of privilege.
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“Jason, you buy stuff at Walmart, I take it?”
no, wal-mart sucks.
“how do you think they get those cotton shirts so cheap that you, a member of the American working class can buy them, hmmm?”
a. I’m a creative. b. bulk, and by taking advantage of cheap Chinese and domestic labor and selling poor quality products that are cheap to make?
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C. And that sort of relationship isn’t limited to Walmart. Target, Kmart, you name it…
The American working classes’ relative prosperity is underwritten by piss-poor working conditions and wages in the rest of the world.
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Mira,
“First thing I learned is how difficult it is to discuss privilege with people who deny their privilege.”
I kind of knew that would happen with this post… I’ve seen similar discussions. It basically involves an endless back and forth of the Americans nitpicking statements and saying they don’t have privilege/only certain Americans have “real” privilege or that other people have privilege too, and the non-American saying that they do have privilege and how could they not realize it? It’s kind of sad to watch. It’s a bit like discussing… every other form of privilege (white, male, etc). Pretty much the only form of privilege that most people can agree on is rich/wealth, but even some well-off people like to counteract that with “but I have struggles too; money doesn’t solve everything”.
I’m also not surprised that many non-whites, especially blacks, disagreed with the notion. I’m just going to be blunt and say that many blacks in America do not like to evaluate themselves and they don’t like to be criticized, and such a discussion may seem like a critique. I understand the “leave black people alone, we’ve gone through enough” sentiment, but it can get to be destructive to never admit any fault by you or yours. However, I stand by my original comment that a few of those things don’t apply to them as much, but the others do.
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By the way, where is the LiveJournal discussion?
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Thank you, Natasha. To be honest, I was hoping you’d answer my question, because you were the only one who pointed at a specific point I listed and said what you find wrong about it (remember, I am not an American and I need a local person who is ready to face their privilege to clear some things with me…)
I understand the “leave black people alone, we’ve gone through enough” sentiment, but it can get to be destructive to never admit any fault by you or yours.
Well, this is true, but I don’t think it means blacks, or anybody for that matter, have a right to be excused when their privilege is being discussed (for example, the fact many black men were lynched, tortured, oppressed etc. doesn’t mean they’re off the hook in a discussion about sexism and male privilege).
What made me sad about LJ discussion is the fact many people, mostly non-whites, derailed the discussion and made it all about them the same way whites (often those who are oppressed themselves: women, gays, poor people) derail discussion about race.
Namely, they insisted on not having American privilege (at least not in a ways I listed) because they suffer oppression and are discriminated by white Americans.
So I found myself in a situation where I had to ask people does that mean I don’t have white privilege because I’m a non-western white (member of culture who never colonized blacks, whose people were slaves, etc.) Of course they didn’t accept this (not that they should, but I don’t think they get why I asked).
Now, I know I do have white privilege, even if I don’t have many privileges white Westerners have, even if I was and still am oppressed by Westerners, etc. But following their logic, being a member of an oppressed group somehow lets you off the hook when it comes to privilege. This looks scarily similar to “I’m poor/gay/female, I don’t have white privilege!” argument.
LJ discsussion is here (I am eleonor): http://community.livejournal.com/ontd_feminism/367434.html
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@Mira
The livejournal discussion was very interesting. I have followed the one here (http://community.livejournal.com/ontd_feminism/367434.html) and at least one other that called those people hypocrites for denying their own privilege (http://community.livejournal.com/fail_fandomanon/2897.html?thread=12482385#t12482385).
I don’t deny American privilege. I have greatly benefited from it both in the United States and overseas. It’s sometimes hard to tease out when I’m benefiting from American privilege, Anglo-privilege and white privilege, since the places I’ve been seem to conflate white, English-speaking, and American. All of these privileges exist, though. I’m not convinced that American privilege outweighs Australian privilege or Canadian privilege, but I’m open to the idea.
I do think that your list was problematic for reasons that I went over in earlier comments. I’m sure that you more than the majority of people in this world know the hardships caused by misguided American foreign policy. I once lived with a French-Serbian (I’m not sure where he was born, but definitely raised in France by Serbian parents) who educated me on more of the complexities of the situation in Kosovo. While I still have a very weak grasp of the issues involved, his POV was so vastly different from what I (and our British friend) had been previously taught that it was very eye opening, and he didn’t even go into the effect of NATO involvement. I understand that you didn’t want to go into political and military issues, which are more personally painful, but I think that they so far eclipse the issue of media dominance that the exportation of American media functions as a red herring in the discussion.
I do appreciate your patience and steadfastness in replying to so many comments. Your contributions to the ongoing discussion greatly clarified your original post.
The reactions of American POC are understandable to me because the list you gave, without the added explanation of how the unilateral dissemination of dominant US ideology affects political and military action, doesn’t seem to benefit POC very much. In fact, it seems to hurt them, since the dominant US ideology marginalizes and oppresses POC.
Last, it seems to me that Americans are setting the parameters of the online discussion of social justice issues (at least on livejournal), and that they are delegitimizing the experiences of marginalized groups outside the US by trying to fit their very different experiences within the framework of American-style oppression and marginalization. I’m not sure how this relates to American privilege, since Americans don’t have any systematic advantage in controlling the discourse, but it happens.
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Katie,
The livejournal discussion was very interesting.
There were people, namely commenter chrys20, who pointed that derailing this discussion is not ok, and she is not the only one.
Still, I must say those who criticized the most are American POC… and those who agreed the most are Western European whites (who share many of the privileges listed here, so I don’t get it).
It’s sometimes hard to tease out when I’m benefiting from American privilege, Anglo-privilege and white privilege, since the places I’ve been seem to conflate white, English-speaking, and American.
You see… But it doesn’t work that way. You can’t take one aspect of privilege (or lack thereof) and measure which one contributes to your experience the most. That’s why oppression Olympics is never good, and that’s why questions such as “who has more privilege, black men or white women” don’t make much sense.
The goal is not to measure which privilege outweighs others at which point, or which lack of privilege (you’re female, right? If you are, you lack male privilege). The goal, I think, is to be aware of these things, to know that privilege is unearned, to know how it brings good things and how it oppress others, and to fight it as much as you can. But to measure privileges and lack thereof and to engage in the oppression Olympics is never a good thing.
I do think that your list was problematic for reasons that I went over in earlier comments. I’m sure that you more than the majority of people in this world know the hardships caused by misguided American foreign policy.
I know. You raised some valid points. I am still not sure if I didn’t focus on politics/military power because it seemed obvious to me, or because it’s too close to home (and I really didn’t want to go into “but Serbs are evil!” discussion, though at the end of the day it happened back at LJ).
Last, it seems to me that Americans are setting the parameters of the online discussion of social justice issues (at least on livejournal)
I don’t know about LJ, but some people there complained about it.
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“First thing I learned is how difficult it is to discuss privilege with people who deny their privilege.”
I’ve never been outside the continental U.S. So what do I know? Sorry If my comments frustrated you. sincerely. I’m certainly going to examine my American Priv more closely.
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@Katie,
Yes, I am drawing on personal experience and those of numerous others. Does that somehow make it more valid? My white American neighbor who is married to a Guatemalan could tell you similar…but maybe it wouldn’t be as credible since it’s not based on direct, first-hand experience? It is not an exaggeration. Just because you haven’t seen it, or experienced it, as a US citizen living in the US and speaking with an American accent, doesn’t make the realities which differ from yours any less real. I have no interest in parading out my experiences for your assessment, as if somehow you have a superior grasp of my reality. Your skepticism reminds me of whites who think POC are exaggerating about how bad racism is.
@Mira,
I was thinking a bit more about what you said regarding viewing people from other countries being an almost universal bias. It didn’t quite fit right. I think where it doesn’t fit is in some non-white, Third World countries that have been colonized by European countries. It is possible to find people who, while proud of their country and ethnicity, also regard citizens from the U.S., Canada, or certain European countries as *not* inferior…and, unfortunately, sometimes as superior to themselves. It’s part of what we called “colonial hangover.”
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*er, “viewing people from other countries as inferior as an almost universal bias. […]”
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Mira,
“Well, this is true, but I don’t think it means blacks, or anybody for that matter, have a right to be excused when their privilege is being discussed”
It seems they were focusing too much on the details and not looking at the broad picture. Even though a few of the points don’t apply to them, overall, it does apply. And they can’t even deny that many of these points do apply to blacks, and in a big way. For example:
“Believing everything you see on the news, even though it is told from the American point of view and is not a universal truth.”
Applies to blacks. Unless it’s something about blacks in the U.S.
“You can take the liberty of shortening or changing people’s names if they are hard for you to pronounce.”
Definitely applies to blacks. I’ve many do this countless times. Or make fun of the person’s name.
About immigrants — I would say the bulk doesn’t apply to them; they aren’t treated as American in the U.S. or abroad, and typically have a vastly different life experience than a multi-generational American.
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jas0nburns said:
I meant that I’m not buying the idea that they actually believe everything has always been just peachy. Like they are totally oblivious. I think willful ignorance is different than being oblivious. willful ignorance is cowardly. It’s looking something terrible in the face and running away, refusing to deal with it. Being oblivious is just not noticing in the first place.
RDKirk responds:
“Oblivious” is not a word I ever used. I would use “deluded” if anything. My point is that they’ve never considered the treatment of black people to be anything other than normal and acceptable. “Yeah, I raped and murdered a black girl. Why are you mad, though? Prosecution for that? You must be kidding.”
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RDKirk said:
Okay, Mira, now you’re pulling a “Thad” and I have to call you on it. It’s not an “American privilege” to visit another country.
Mira said:
No… But it’s often Western privilege, and like I wrote in the post, many of the things listed apply to West in general.
RDKirk responds:
I remember when the Japanese started visiting Hawaii big-time in the late 70s. Until then, they’d mostly been visiting Europe. By the 90s, Japanese tourism to Hawaii was so significant that a Japanese language theater had been built at the Pearl Harbor Memoria. Do you consider that a western privilege?
And if so many of those issues are “western” privileges, why do they belong in a list of “American” privileges?
Mira said:
Let me picture it less drastically: what Americans think affects the WHOLE WORLD due to globalization.
RDKirk responds:
So….you want us to put some kind of export restrictions on American media?
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jas0nburns,
I’ve never been outside the continental U.S. So what do I know? Sorry If my comments frustrated you. sincerely. I’m certainly going to examine my American Priv more closely.
I didn’t mean on you specifically, and even if we did have an argument (which we didn’t), there’s nothing wrong with it per se.
I just thought a post like this would be interesting on this blog, because it could give visitors more ways to think about privilege and to discuss different kinds of privilege in order to better understand those they’re more familiar with. While different kinds of privileges are not the same, there are similar mechanisms, and there’s DEFINITELY a similar reaction to such discussions.
Hm,
I was thinking a bit more about what you said regarding viewing people from other countries being an almost universal bias. It didn’t quite fit right.
Othering is universal bias, and it goes for any group interaction, not just between countries. But yes, seeing others, especially enemies, as inferior, seems to be universal, which doesn’t mean every single individual shares this opinion.
also regard citizens from the U.S., Canada, or certain European countries as *not* inferior…and, unfortunately, sometimes as superior to themselves. It’s part of what we called “colonial hangover.”
Eh… That happens here too. We were colonized, but not by Westerners, but there is a strong fascination with the West with some people here. I blame globalization (in my culture’s case).
For example, Cyrillic alphabet is the official one in Serbia, but we can equally use Latin alphabet. Cyrillic use is dying because to many people Cyrillic letters don’t seem, I don’t know, fancy enough? Most of the names of stores and products are not just written in Latin alphabet, but also have English names! That is sad. There’s nothing wrong in Cyrillic letters or naming your caffee (there are thousands of them in Belgrade) in Serbian!
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RDKirk,
Do you consider that a western privilege?
Yes. In this sense, Japan can be seen as “West” (which brings us to another problem, how to define West in the first place).
And if so many of those issues are “western” privileges, why do they belong in a list of “American” privileges?
Because America is West so everything said applies to America, but some things don’t apply to West in general.
And maybe because I chose the wrong title. Maybe Western/American privilege or something like that would be more appropriate.
So….you want us to put some kind of export restrictions on American media?
Restrictions are bad, but frankly, how many American “action thrillers” do we really need? As for news channels, I don’t watch them, but we all know they do more harm than good (not just American… most of them).
I’d love to learn more about other cultures, and yes, I’d love to learn more about American culture(s). I’d also love to watch more independent American movies (that’s why I find some of the Abagond’s recommendations very helpful).
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I think the difference is more what is expected of immigrants versus what is expected of tourists. I would have a much higher expectation that an immigrant to a country would learn its language than that a tourist would.
Agreed. It is reasonable to have a higher expectation of an immigrant than a tourist w/r/t learning a country’s language. Yet it’s not all that uncommon to find British/Canadian/US ex pats who stay largely holed up in their ex pat communities, sending their children to “international” ex pat schools that are separate from where the native children go, speaking only English year after year, disdainful in varying degrees towards the indigenous people, their customs and languages. Yet immigrants in America are expected to dive right into the mainstream, so to speak. It’s a pretty clear under current of superiority…one type of acculturation is viewed as “taint,” the other as a step up.
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Yes, it does make a big difference. I work with immigrant communities here, and a big problem with these groups is that crusaders come in trying to “solve” problems they don’t have. People make assumptions about the immigrant experience that just aren’t true. I was skeptical because in working with immigrants on these issues, none have complained that Americans expected them to speak English or disparaged them when they couldn’t.
Actually I was hoping to get some insight into your experience so I could try to understand where you were coming from, since there are vast regional differences in how immigrants are treated. Of course, I’m sure that you will give my experiences the same respect that I accord yours.
Well, your reactionary remarks remind me of my white boyfriend who thought that everything bad that happened to him in China was because of racism, even cabbies who didn’t stop because they already had fares. So I guess we’ve reached the end of constructive discourse, since we’ve both reminded the other of people who were irrationally wedded to a narrow ideology.
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Expats are not immigrants. Most of them are on three year stints at best, and for children to have any semblance of a coherent education (and one that will prepare them to be productive adults in their home countries), they need to go to international schools.
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It’s a pretty clear under current of superiority…one type of acculturation is viewed as “taint,” the other as a step up.
Exactly. It’s another form of privilege, and in this case it applies to belief cultural norms (including language) of the more powerful group are in some ways better than those of the others. So a person (be it an immigrant or a tourist) needs to speak perfect English in America in order for Americans to treat her as an intelligent human being worth their time, while locals in non-Western countries should be HAPPY (and often are happy) when an American (or anybody else for that matter) took an effort to learn to say “good morning” in their language.
So a person needs to know every silly cultural norm in America in order not to be othered (here read: ridiculed), but locals in non-Western countries should be happy when an American asks any question about their culture (even if it’s something that should be part of general education, such as, what’s the name of your capital?)
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But yes, seeing others, especially enemies, as inferior, seems to be universal, which doesn’t mean every single individual shares this opinion.
I can see how what I wrote was open to misinterpretation. I didn’t mean that every single individual believes different = inferior. That’s one interpretation. Another is that colonial hangover is common enough, due to racism and colonialism, to require a more nuanced definition. I’m not trying to be difficult. I’m just pointing out that it’s not quite so cut-and-dried. For example, economic structural adjustment programs were seen as evils wrought by the West and therefore the U.S. was seen by many as a toxic, interfering outsider and, arguably, an enemy in friend’s clothing … but not inferior.
And as I said, up thread, in my country an educated, successful immigrant is not regarded as inferior. Deeming successful, educated foreigners as inferior may be a conceit of more powerful countries. We can agree to disagree…although it looks like you’re agreeing with me, to a certain extent, that certain foreign cultures aren’t viewed as inferior (i.e., strong fascination with the West in your country) … and that would be a sign of privilege: being regarded as an exception (fascinating, possibly worthy of emulating) to the general rule (inferior).
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My country both hates west and is, unknowingly, fascinated by it. How so?
People here hate west because West is seen as our enemy. But due to globalization, they don’t understand that many things, such as beauty ideal, fashion, etc. that seem normal and universal are NOT universal, but merely western ideas. So suddenly your њ љ б ф ч ц џ г д з letters don’t seem so “fancy” and “cool” anymore… But if somebody asks you whether you like West, you act offended.
The fact a foreign person is not seen as inferior can often be the result of said person being seen as an exception to the rule (he is seen as an equal, but his culture is still seen as inferior). (I’m not saying that’s the case in your example, but it often happens).
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Expats are not immigrants. Most of them are on three year stints at best, and for children to have any semblance of a coherent education (and one that will prepare them to be productive adults in their home countries), they need to go to international schools.
Interesting. Even the ones who had roots generations deep chose to self-identify as “ex pats.” The idea that those specific international schools prepared them for anything other than a life of spoon-fed ease is funny. Their test scores, which were published along with all the other schools’, were abysmal. You’re assuming a lot. It’s interesting that you have no idea which country I’m talking about, let alone the schools, yet you presume to educate me on how long the people in question stayed in my country, the basis for their school selection and the curriculum of said schools.
Let’s just say for the sake of argument that everything you’ve said above is true. Is it still OK to expect them not to attempt to learn the local language and customs, to have contempt for the locals? If so, is it OK for “ex pats” who arrive in the US to do the same? Or would that be seen as self-defeating and ridiculous? A lot of Americans I meet have the attitude that discomfort of cultural readjustment is for other people. It smacks of entitlement…and privilege. Regardless of how it’s justified.
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If it makes you happy to believe my remarks were reactionary, by all means go ahead. After all, it’s my job to educate you, right? And if I don’t, how will you learn? If only I could stop being so emotional, er, reactionary and raise it to a more intellectual level. Yes, my experience in the U.S. and those of other immigrants are analogous to your white boyfriend’s experience in China. Win.
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Exactly. We’re on the same page. Thank you for your post and comments. I enjoyed our exchange.
…back to life off the ‘net.
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This post was also a good opportunity for me to think about my white privilege and what it means. Like I already stated, most of the things usually listed as white privilege (including Abagond’s list- only two things apply) don’t apply to my case.
There was a long argument back at LJ in POC argued almost nothing from my American privilege list applies to them, (and most were offended when I said it doesn’t change anything for me- their American privilege still applies). But then I started thinking about my white privilege and the fact I could check only a few boxes from the usual list.
I always though of my white privilege as locked, in a way of a potential- when I leave my all-white country, I can fully enjoy it, but within my country, my white privilege doesn’t do much for me (since everybody’s white).
So here’s my list (in progress):
– I can see myself as raceless.
– I don’t have to think about race if I don’t want to.
– Global ideal of beauty is far away from my physical appearance, but the fact white women are the most praised and I am white certainly means something.
– I can listen and enjoy racist jokes (not that I do, but I can).
– People who look like me were never seen as monkeys (except on individual basis- politicians for example- but it’s not in any way, shape or form the same)
– Nobody thinks I am oversexed slut just because I happen to be of a certain race.
– Nobody pulls corner of their eyes or make monkey noises at people of my race.
– I can buy products for my hair type wherever I want.
– Should I decide to leave country I could enjoy all or almost all privileges whites generally share.
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* Not knowing what is like to have war in your homeland.
This is why they can lambaste anti-war protesters, they’ve never experienced war up close and personal.
* Expecting people in other countries to speak your language when you travel abroad.
This is the epitome of ignorance.
* Assuming everybody knows, or should know, your culture (even things like the “American Idol” contestants).
Ignorance is bliss! You can infer many things from watching American television. Are people that stupid in believing these things? If you watch cartoons for example, are you to infer that Americans are anthropomorphic like Bugs Bunny, Roadrunner or Wiley E. Coyote? How about Superman?
* Assuming nobody else has any of the technological advantages you have – like not knowing how to use a computer or even an oven.
I once had an American express surprise that the Canadians weren’t all clothed in Parkas and snow boots, and didn’t live in Igloos are get around on dog sleds. An extreme, but this person was serious. Also, many Americans are surprised that there are a lot of racialized people here. For some reason, they think that 99.9% of Canadians are white.
* Assuming everybody wants to live in America, since it is the best place to live (even without universal health care).
I have always wondered as to why a 1st world nation never had universal health care when every other ‘advanced’ nation does? As for being the best place to live? If you get sick then you are fukked! You could lose everything. As far as I’m concerned, free health care is a fundamental human right.
* Seeing people from other countries as inferior to you, even if they are highly educated and successful.
Yes, there are a lot of PhDs, doctors engineers and other professionals driving cabs because the government will not recognize their credentials or let them upgrade/sit for licensing. The average immigrant here is better educated than the native-born. Only an ignoramus would see them as the opposite! I guess there are a lot of those around.
* Assuming everyone on the Internet is American.
Bingo!
* Believing everybody else wants to adopt the American way of life. If they do not, there is something wrong with them. If they do not, America is going make them.
Canadians are seen as another version of Americans especially if they are white. If you are black, you must have hailed from the ‘Islands” originally. Many white Canadians even assume this. It’s a good thing they lost the War of 1812!
* You can take the liberty of shortening or changing people’s names if they are hard for you to pronounce.
Many of these names aren’t even hard to pronounce, yet many have a dastardly time doing so. Take Sri Lankan names, If you can pronounce those, you can pronounce any names. If you are unsure as to how to pronounce them than ask. I could never understand why people don’t just employ this simple tool. I think this is a way for putting these ‘foreigners’ in their place.
* Believing America is fair and free. Everybody else lives in a mess.
Does a bear sh*t in the woods?
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@Hm
No I wouldn’t expect expats in the United States to attend American schools, or get an American education. Why would people who are going into a different system learn the history and tools they need to survive in one they are planning to spend their adult lives in? I live close to the French school here, and I certainly don’t begrudge them getting an education in their own languauge that prepares them to live the lives they’re most likely to lead.
If people are living in a country their whole lives, I wouldn’t consider them expats. I’m not sure what you mean that people who have roots generations deep are expats. Has their family been living there for generations?
Listen, you’re making just as many generalizations as I am. The difference is that I’m making them from my experience and you’re making them from yours. Yes, it is incredibly offensive to me that you suggest my parents sent me to international school to protect me from the “taint” of my mother’s culture. It is offensive to me that you accuse me of delegitimizing your experience when I ask you whether you’ve had an experience. I have no idea who you are. For all I knew before you answered my question, you could have been another white Berkeley undergraduate trying to educate me on the immigrant experience. If my mother’s telling me one thing, and some random person I know nothing about is telling me something different, I’m going to believe my mother, and I don’t apologize for that.
But then again, you’re making tons of assumptions about me. And while your experience is different from my boyfriend’s, your attitude (“I know all about this culture and so I know that they are thinking these horrible things”) is the same.
So, stop making assumptions, and start engaging in the conversation. You might be surprised what you learn. And it’s not my job to educate you either, but at least I’m trying to communicate clearly, whereas you seem more interested in making broad generalizations from your experience, then get angry at me when my experiences haven’t been the same.
And you didn’t say anything about a particular country. You said “ex pats.” So just cut it out with the crap about me trying to educate you about your country. Expats where I lived are just as much expats as wherever you lived.
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Correction: my first paragraph should read: Why would people who are going into a different system learn the history and tools they need to survive in one they are not planning to spend their adult lives in?
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Cosign the “expats are not immigrants” bit.
I cringe whenever I see someone who’s been living here in Brazil for decades call themselves an “expat”.
I am certainly not an expat.
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Mira,
I agree with you that American privilege does exist. I am an American by birth, but having lived outside the U.S. for some time now, I’ve seen that I have American privilege. Rabid racists in Norway treat all black people the same no matter where they come from. But many of the borderline/tokenism types are far more polite, helpful. and respectful to me than they are to my friend Janet, who is from Liberia. This pisses me off to no end. I’ll give an example. Jamet and I were out having lunch in a neighboring village one time and the waiter kept asking me what she wanted. After that happened twice, I finally said, “Why don’t you ask her what she wants. She’s a perfectly intelligent person and can speak for herself.” He apoligized profusely and thereafter addressed her directly. It was like he thought she was a child or a mental defective or something.
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“First thing I learned is how difficult it is to discuss privilege with people who deny their privilege.”
What this really means is discussing something with people who dispute the premise underneath your point. I imagine it would be tough to make your point then. But what that means is that you’re putting the cart before the horse. You need to defend your premise first.
This is *my* problem with discussions around privilege. People who take positions similar to yours expect, demand and sort of need their premises to go unchallenged (Bill O’Reilly has become a millionaire by fooling people into ignoring his faulty premises) in order to make their points.
The foundation upon which an argument is built should be indisputable from jump. If there’s a sound and material disuputing to be made below the level of your main point, then *that’s* where the debate should start, not at some level above that.
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What do you mean? That we need to define what privilege means?
Well, I admit, Thad asked the same thing, but didn’t get many answers, apart from my “power imbalance leads to oppressor/oppressed dichotomy and oppressors gain privilege” thing.
So yes, we can discuss what privilege means. However, if we agree there is white privilege, male privilege, heterosexual privilege, etc., there is American (USA) privilege as well.
These things are NOT the same and are unique and specific in many aspects. However, one thing is the same (if we, unlike Thad, accept there is oppressor/oppressed dichotomy), and that is the basic mechanism of this dichotomy.
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Or are you saying there is no such thing as privilege?
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“However, if we agree there is white privilege, male privilege, heterosexual privilege, etc., there is American (USA) privilege as well. ”
This is the thing. I keep forgetting that within most of the liberal world, and definitely within the U.S.-minority world, the ideas of white privilege and male privilege are widespread at least, if not held as completely orthodox outright.
I think there are many great points to be made for white privilege. But to me, male and American privilege, as ideas existing in the West in 2010 (I’m *not* talking about the past) get kind fo shaky. I’m all behind the idea that widespread advantages exist, but privilege is a really strong word and idea. I suspect it’s a stronger word than most of it’s believers realize.
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@ Scipio Africanus:
But to me, male and American privilege, as ideas existing in the West in 2010 (I’m *not* talking about the past) get kind fo shaky.
For real? As far as I’m concerned, male privilege is the most obvious of all of those.
As a male, I can walk the streets at night with a degree of safety most women could never take for granted. If I was to meet someone and go on a first date, I would have no reservations about going somewhere alone and secluded with her. She could not take that for granted.
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I think x privilege is easier to see if you are not yourself x. People tend to take their own privileges for granted, so much so they become hard to see. It is like the air you breathe. I have been told I am blind to my male privilege and no doubt that is true.
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“As a male, I can walk the streets at night with a degree of safety most women could never take for granted. If I was to meet someone and go on a first date, I would have no reservations about going somewhere alone and secluded with her. She could not take that for granted.”
Men are far and away the victims of random physical violence way more often than women are. Alot of people are shocked when they actually look into those stats and see that. (It’s somewhere north of 70%.)
And your second example speaks to perceptions, not necessarily realities. Granted, if you’re a normal sized man, there’s very few women in the world who could “take you” so to speak. But what you’ve identified is a result of the fear that society has taught women to have regarding men, more than (a very real, if somewhat overstated) actual danger. Fear is a really tough emotion to shake, espcially when it’s being reinforced from all sides, as is done with women in our society.
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Abagond,
Don’t you see the inherent logical fallacy in that argument, though? It sets up a win-win for the person asserting that the privilege exists, and a no-win for the would-be questioner. I.e., either you agree you have privilege, or you question/deny aspects of that same argument, which is therefore supposedly *evidence* of your privilege. What? It presupposes what it claims to assert.
That’s how religions and faiths operate (which is *fine* is you’re a believer – I’m religious myself and have no qualms with this mode of thinking), not ideas supposedly based on ration and argument, which is what Privilege Theory purports to be.
And frankly, I believe that in 2010, alot of the White Privilege that existed in the past has largely melted away. A ton of it remains, and is problematic, but alot is gone.
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” either you agree you have privilege, or you question/deny aspects of that same argument, which is therefore supposedly *evidence* of your privilege. What? It presupposes what it claims to assert.”
i agree with this statement. It’s true that having x privilege may make it hard to see. But at the same time just cause you can’t see it doesn’t mean you have it. And I like the religion comparison. Those who use that arguement for privilege rub me the wrong way. Like they’re a few inches from stoning peeps for heresy.
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@ Scipio Africanus:
Men are far and away the victims of random physical violence way more often than women are. Alot of people are shocked when they actually look into those stats and see that. (It’s somewhere north of 70%.)
And your second example speaks to perceptions, not necessarily realities. Granted, if you’re a normal sized man, there’s very few women in the world who could “take you” so to speak. But what you’ve identified is a result of the fear that society has taught women to have regarding men, more than (a very real, if somewhat overstated) actual danger. Fear is a really tough emotion to shake, espcially when it’s being reinforced from all sides, as is done with women in our society.
By way of comparison – I’m 34 and have never been the victim of any random physical violence, and I’m out on the streets at night alone fairly often.
My girlfriend has just in the last 3 years been mugged for her handbag once (without physical attack, thankfully), been stalked by two men in a shopping centre who disappeared when she called security, and gets catcalls from men on the street all the time (which, given the broader context, can seem quite threatening as you would understand).
I know that doesn’t necessary make a trend, but I’m just saying. There’s a reason why women often feel afraid.
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Here’s a great artcile: (please read!)
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2010/02/15/dear-usians-on-the-internet/
(I know Abagond had some… misunderstandings with them concerning male privilege, but that should not be an obstacle for reading and understanding this one).
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Oh yes, and don’t forget to read the comments.
Btw, the article was written by a non-white Australian.
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DAMN ABAGOND! THIS IS A GOOD ARTICLE–I CAN’T EVEN BEGIN TO READ ALL THESE COMMENTS!
THANKS MIRA FOR THIS FANTASTIC ARTICLE! VERY INTERESTING PERSPECTIVE OF AMERICAN PRIVILEGE. IT’S GOOD TO HEAR IT FROM SOMEONE OTHER THAN AFRICAN AMERICANS!
THIS BLOG OUGHT TO BE REQUIRED READING IN THE TOP UNIVERSITIES OF THE WORLD!!
(No exaggeration)
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Oh, here’s a point from that article you linked us to that’ll really piss Ank Mie off:
Not all non-white people are black. Stop referring to us as such. In fact, neither do all non-white people fit into that routine construction of ‘black/Latino/Asian’ that you so frequently employ. Yes, indeed, you are not being inclusive even if you sometimes tack Native Americans on as an afterthought – you know, as though you’re not in their ancestral homeland or anything that would accord them some respect. In fact, there are many many many many many people in the world other than the ones you choose to mention. I would tell you about some of them, but I don’t want to contribute to that whole list-some-people-and-erase-other-people thing you do. And also it would be a great exercise if you could go learn about them! Maybe you could even meet some! Maybe you have been meeting some and have also been erasing their identities by acting like they were from ethnic/racial groups you’re more familiar with!
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Here’s another, spot on, which criticizes that “people of color” rhetoric Ank and Mason the Wonder Kid toss about as if it were all so relevant:
Oh, another thing about all that racial stuff! USian racial dynamics do not translate anywhere else on the planet. Hence their being called USian racial dynamics. No one else has the precise history you do, that unique racial make-up, those particular constructions of what those identities mean – things that ought to be respected. Likewise, this stuff works differently in other countries because your experiences don’t magically melt over into and obliterate ours. Do not, do not, ever try erase or modify our experiences of racism, Indigenous experiences in particular, by framing my country’s appalling racist history in USian terms. Have some respect for the stuff other people have to deal with every day, some basic consideration of where we’ve been. That means sometimes people are going to be uncomfortable with the use of terms that are benign or even positive to you, like ‘person of colour’ (because it’s often considered a term particular to the USian context, because it indicates a sense of alliance that isn’t universal, stuff like that). Sometimes you are going to be uncomfortable with such non-white-shaped cultural aspects in other countries. It is not cool to force your ideas about race and racism on us and in doing so alter and damage our cultures, our strategies of resistance, so that you’re more comfortable. I seriously don’t know how you stomach doing that.
Nice link, Mira.
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Wow, the more I read that link, the better I find it. SERIOUSLY good stuff.
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First and foremost, thank you for sharing your thoughts with us; now I’d like to share my thoughts about this piece with you and everyone else who cares to read it.
This may come from an unbiased place of observation but it can also be viewed in the same light this piece views Americans/America: the viewpoint of the writer is generalized.
1. It is not fair to generalize anyone based on one’s own viewpoint unless you have facts to support your views.
2. Since we are only voicing opinons here, that should have been the first statement made.
3. Many of these statements do not ring true in general. I will debate the few that irked me.
a.”Expecting people in other countries to speak your language when you travel abroad.”
This is not true for many individuals who actually travel. There are many who are smart enough to know that not everyone will speak English around the world. Military families, for example, deal with this on a dailiy basis.
b. “Believing everything you see on the news, even though it is told from the American point of view and is not a universal truth. ”
Maybe you need to watch our news a little more. There is a huge debate brewing and has been for several years about freedom over the net. The idea that you state is the very reason WHY people are fighting to keep the internet open. We do know the media lies and fills the airwaves with gunk and junk. As far as the “american point of view” is concerned, the news that America is watching is airing in the US so why wouldn’t it be told from the American point of view? Universal truth is hard to prove since no one lives in the Universe.
c.”Assuming everybody wants to live in America, since it is the best place to live (even without universal health care). ”
Not everyone is concluding this assumption; rather, many people who make those statements are people from other countries. (see, the second half of that statement is a generalization. Quite frankly, I don’t care if you want to live here or not.)
d. “Having plenty of movies and TV shows in your language, full of people from your country, showing your culture and way of life. ”
Again, most people who live here speak English and have adopted it as their language. No it’s not written in stone; rather it is an accepted way of living. It works here. May not work anywhere else but we don’t live anywhere else; we live here. And yes, we like movies. Who doesn’t? Not everyone is against films in other languages but if the majority of the money is made from movies spoken in English, why would American, which is built on money, change that?
e. “Assuming everyone on the Internet is American. ”
Who are the idiots you’ve been talking to? Get away from them pronto! LOL!
f. “You can take the liberty of shortening or changing people’s names if they are hard for you to pronounce. ”
Hey, if this bothers you, tell them where to go (to hell). Maybe you’ll start a trend. I hate this behaviour too as it is very disrespectul to the individual and takes away their individuality. My point is, not everyone does it.
g. “Believing America is fair and free. Everybody else lives in a mess. Assuming everybody wants the USA to help them. ”
Many Americans know America is NOT free nor fair; if the didn’t know it before the recession, they certainly feel it now. Again, people who travel know first hand, not everything is a mess. I do not know why the media focuse’s on the horrible parts of a country and never shows the good.. oh wait, yes I do! Money! This ties in with the “everybody wants help from the US” statement. Many Americans DO NOT help as we know the money isn’t going to the needy that’s advertised. The earthquake in Pakistan has proved we don’t trust our money outside of our hands. And some of the ones who donate use it as a tax write off so it’s no longer about those in need; rather, it’s about helping one’s self feel good.
h. “Seeing the USA as the best nation there is and being confused when others feel the same about their own countries. Being confused about people who do not like the USA or those who think it is not perfect. They must be jealous! ”
Hey, who doesn’t think their country is the best? I hear it all the time from those who are Nigeria, Ethipian, Swedish etc. And yes, I live around ALL those people. The “confusion” is nothing more than playful banter: “My country is the best! No, my country is the best! How can that be? I just told you MY country was the best!” and so on. We know people do not like the US so there is no confusion on that end. Perfect? HA! We know that’s not true either. Jealous? I could only dream.
I am very grateful to hear your opinon. Please learn not to generalize as I have no idea what your opinons are based on. Mine are based on having an open eye.
God Bless.
Sheree Monay
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Is this a good place to address the visceral rage that some US Americans seem to experience at any attempt to distinguish US Americans and all the other Americans?
Abagond wrote some time ago: “Stuff like “USian” or “U.S. American” makes my skin crawl.” The feministe post linked to above attracted a lot of similar comments.
Agabond also said: “I use “America” to mean the United States of America because that is what it means in English nine times out of ten.”
I’d say that’s a good example of US hegemony.
So why do US Americans feel so possessive of the term “American”? Is that a sign of US privilege?
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maruja de lujo,
So why do US Americans feel so possessive of the term “American”? Is that a sign of US privilege?
Yes, that is DEFINITELY a sign of US privilege.
To be honest, the term “American(s)” is always used for people in the USA and not in other countries in North or South America. That’s why I didn’t think twice about naming this article any other than “American privilege”, though the more accurate title would, of course, be “US privilege”.
On the other hand, the term “America” is also used for a continent (two, in fact) and the context determines whether we speak of USA or continents.
What I’m saying is, there is no WORD in my language for US people other than “Americans”.
(The acronym for USA in my language is SAD).
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sheree,
I never claimed to be objective (nobody can be objective), and I never said stuff on this list apply to all US citizens as individuals. I am aware there are US people who, say, don’t assume everybody on the Internet is American. But unfortunately, there are many who do- and I am sorry to say they are, in my opinion (and in many other people’s opinions) majority.
But the main point of this article is in the second paragraph:
So having American privilege means being on the stronger side of the power struggle.
That is not my individual opinion, it is a fact. That doesn’t mean every single US citizen lives a better life than any non-US citizen, of course- but the thing with privilege is not about how problem-free your life is, but about the things you (general you) get and the things you can do and I don’t- just because you are white/male/straight/US citizen, etc. and I am not.
This is not true for many individuals who actually travel. There are many who are smart enough to know that not everyone will speak English around the world.
Many (most) Americans know that people in other countries are not native English speakers. But they still expect people to speak English and often don’t bother to learn, say, Bulgarian if they want to visit Bulgaria.
If they are staying for years in a non-English speaking country, then yes, many would take an effort of learning the language. (That doesn’t mean US military is welcomed per se, but that’s another story).
Maybe you need to watch our news a little more. There is a huge debate brewing and has been for several years about freedom over the net. The idea that you state is the very reason WHY people are fighting to keep the internet open. We do know the media lies and fills the airwaves with gunk and junk.
People don’t believe in everything they see on TV when it comes to their group or the things that concerns them, or the things they KNOW it’s not true. But at the same time, they- many of them- are quick to believe what they see on TV about other things.
It’s a human reaction- people in my country are the same. But my country is not as powerful as the US. What US people think and do and who they choose as their leaders can affect the whole world.
As far as the “american point of view” is concerned, the news that America is watching is airing in the US so why wouldn’t it be told from the American point of view?
Fair enough. But people are led to believe it IS an universal truth and not just something that was shaped to serve US interests, or white interests, etc.
Not everyone is concluding this assumption; rather, many people who make those statements are people from other countries. (see, the second half of that statement is a generalization. Quite frankly, I don’t care if you want to live here or not.)
Of course not all people think like this, but the fact is that many (most?) would not want to live anywhere else. (Fair enough, home is a home and your country is your country). But just because living in Armenia sounds awful and horrible to many US people, doesn’t mean it’s truly awful to live there.
And yes, we like movies. Who doesn’t?
Believe or not, there are people who don’t like movies.
Not everyone is against films in other languages but if the majority of the money is made from movies spoken in English, why would American, which is built on money, change that?
The bold part is American privilege.
Believe me, non-English speaking people are artistic, creative and intelligent enough to create amazing work of art and wonderful films. They are also able to make a fun junk with no artistic value. But the reason American movie industry dominates it’s NOT because Americans are more artistic, creative, etc. than the rest of the world.
I hate this behaviour too as it is very disrespectul to the individual and takes away their individuality. My point is, not everyone does it.
Many people don’t shorten people’s names, but there are enough of those who do, and do it in an extremely disrespectful and patronizing way. Hey, I understand it’s difficult to pronounce some names and words that are in a language foreign to your own (for example, there’s no way I can correctly pronounce the word “literature” or any English word that has “th”). So if it’s that a lot of bother and if you can’t pronounce it, it is ok to ask a person for help or see how a person wants you to address her.
So shortening and changing people’s names per se is not a problem- the problem is that Americans often take liberty to do that the way THEY want it, when THEY want it, and they also dare to say your name is “strange” or “unpronounceable”. Unpronounceable to whom? Certainly not the people in your country!
Hey, who doesn’t think their country is the best?
I certainly don’t, but it’s not the issue. You’re right, many people think their countries are the best, but some US people seem to be particularly confused when others say that about their countries. This sort of confusion is US-specific, I think, because many Americans- sad to say this- are taught that USA is THE strongest power in the world.
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Many of the points on this list apply equally to — say — New Zealanders or Britons. Others apply equally to French, Belgians and Spaniards, who often assume foreigners to be backwards and native English speakers to be irredeemably monoglot.
But my biggest beef with the list is that some of the points are not advantages (and of course when one says privilege on an anti-racist website, it means unearned or undeserved advantage). Dumbed-down media deliberately cultivates ignorance, insularity and jingoism in US Americans, then uses it against them to persuade them to act against their own best interests, for example, marching against universal health care because it’s socialist and unamerican, or going to Vietnam or Iraq to “defend your country” against entirely imaginary attacks by those countries.
In 1903 the US author Jack London wrote a book called “The people of the abyss”, (you can read the whole thing free online. Just Google it) describing the appalling poverty and degradation suffered by English people as the British Empire was still pulling in wealth from all over the world. If the UK could treat its people that way, so can the US. But if you are raised to believe implicitly in US moral superiority you won’t be able to believe that.
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Again, you are addressing these issue’s by calling them facts when they are opinons.
From your response to me:
1. So having American privilege means being on the stronger side of the power struggle.
That is not my individual opinion, it is a fact.”
What American privilege comes with being on the stronger side of the power struggle? You’ll have to explain this a little further as so many other countries have more people or more workers than america. America is one of the smallest nations on the planet. So what power struggle are you talking about? Government? Deals were made regarding this and your government, like everyone else’s agreed to come to terms. American government is not the majority government but they COME across that way don’t we? I am well aware that other countries follow us and that is due to us being smaller and more controlled. If you don’t mind sharing the power struggle idea you’re bringing up, I’d like to hear more of it.
2. “But they still expect people to speak English and often don’t bother to learn, say, Bulgarian if they want to visit Bulgaria.”
“They” can be anyone from any country at any time. If I come to a country it’s expected of me to know the language already since I am there. Comes with the territory. This is a personal trait; not a national one.
3. “But at the same time, they- many of them- are quick to believe what they see on TV about other things. It’s a human reaction- people in my country are the same. But my country is not as powerful as the US. What US people think and do and who they choose as their leaders can affect the whole world.”
Yes what one country does can affect the entire world. That doesn’t mean Americans are not watching your country for inspiration for their next move, building project etc. Just because you either haven’t seen it yet or don’t know about it yet doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Then again, you may never know who you will inspire.
4. “But people are led to believe it IS an universal truth and not just something that was shaped to serve US interests, or white interests, etc.”
The key word here is LED: meaning people have limited access to what get’s shown on tv in certain areas. Which again, is why we crave/LOVE the net. And there are plenty of people who know that TV is another playground for “White Land” (see In Living Color skit by T’keyah).
5. “but the fact is that many (most?)”
If you’re going to debate in the future, you may want to pin point how much is “most”.”Most” doesn’t equate to a fact: “most” equates to not being the minority. For example, simply stating that “Most people are attracted to the color red” doesn’t make it to be a fact; just means most of the people I HAVE MET /SEEN/ TALKED TO/ SPENT TIME WITH enjoyed the color red. To make this statement TRUE, I’d have to interview EVERYONE in the world. Since we know that’s not going to happen, “most” should be equated to an hypothesis.
6. “But just because living in Armenia sounds awful and horrible to many US people, doesn’t mean it’s truly awful to live there.”
I support this statement as you’ve written is as an open minded opinon. (Sidenote: I don’t know much about Armenia but I have seen pictures online and I think it’s very beautiful there. Strange looking plants {to me}: I’m already excited.)
7. “Believe or not, there are people who don’t like movies.”
These people do not make the movie industry any money so they are not of any importance.
8. I made the statement “majority of the money is made from movies spoken in English” and you responded with “The bold part is American privilege”. Then you go on about other cultures/peoples being creative.
I didn’t say anything about lacking creativity. I stated America makes Money IN AMERICA with films done in English. I know many films get voice over translation as I’ve seen 4 different versions of “Hercules” on youtube. America is built on Money. Whether the move is Creative or not at all, we tend to follow the money.
9. ” the problem is that Americans often take liberty to do that the way THEY want it, when THEY want it, and they also dare to say your name is “strange” or “unpronounceable”. Unpronounceable to whom? Certainly not the people in your country!”
I agree with you as this is not only an American Liberty issue as I’ve met people who have set assumptions about African Americans and will say it bodly in front of me and I”m African American! But as I said the first time, you have to let people know where you stand and do it with finesse. It all comes down to manners, not privilege.
10. “but some US people seem to be particularly confused when others say that about their countries. This sort of confusion is US-specific, I think, because many Americans- sad to say this- are taught that USA is THE strongest power in the world.”
“This sort of confusion is US-specific, I think,” <— this is an opinon: you said so yourself with "i think". "because many Americans- sad to say this- are taught that USA is THE strongest power in the world." Again, most countries are taught there country is the strongest. That idiot Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is the President of Iran makes those kinds of statements all the time. Doesn't make it true but is used as another way to bring the country together.
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maruja de lujo, well said.
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I feel a bit bad about being so negative now, because I really like the original post even though I disagree with it in a fundamental way.
I see US hegemony as something very powerful and disturbing, but I don’t agree that translates into real, meaningful advantages — privilege — for the vast majority of US citizens.
I say this as an Australian, which means that I suffer from what we like to call cultural cringe, but have access to state-funded health care, subsidized contraception, (semi) free tertiary education, long-term unemployment benefits from the age of 18 and other such life-improving things. Compared with these, ignorance and insensitivity don’t look like real privileges to me.
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“I say this as an Australian, which means that I suffer from what we like to call cultural cringe”
I’ve never heard that term before… what is meant by it?
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maruja de lujo
please don’t feel bad. No one will agree with everything that get’s said. You made valuable points. I wasn’t holding your view over anyone else’s. All of us are just offering our opinons.
KING:
CULTURAL CRINGE: an internalized inferiority complex which causes people in a country to dismiss their own culture as inferior to the cultures of other countries
(wikipedia)
ADDITIONAL SITE: http://www.convictcreations.com/research/culturalcringe.html
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The term “privilege” was perverted with the success of the invisible backpack essay, and became one of those terms– like “racism” — that has one, older meaning for ordinary English speakers and another, newer one for a group of like-minded people, thus impeding communication between those inside and outside the group.
As Thaddeus is arguing on another thread, to ordinary English speakers, “privilege” means special rights or advantages awarded to a particular group. In the language of anti-racist bloggers, it means having those things and not being aware of them. So for a lot of bloggers and commenters it has become a euphemism for “spoiled and ignorant”.
It’s hard to argue with the “ignorant” part:
However, I’m not so sure about the spoiled part. I don’t think any US American needs a foreigner to explain to them how expensive health care and education are in the US, how limited unemployment insurance is, how insecure their jobs are, and how big the gap is between the rich and the bottom eighty per cent.
Once US citizens really were wealthier than the rest of the world. At the beginning of the 20th century a white male labourer really did eat better, dress better, wash more often and live longer than his English counterpart. But that’s not the case now. And when you take away the wealth and all you have left is the superiority complex, that’s not privilege. It’s chauvinism.
That chauvinism can only hurt the majority of US Americans, who refuse to believe that any socialist country (France, Australia, Canada) could be treating its citizens better than their own country, and won’t agitate for better treatment.
But the arrogance and complacency really gets up people’s noses. Several Spanish people have told me how they lived in the US for a year and were infuriated by the assumptions of their hosts that they lived in misery and filth at home and would do anything in their power to migrate to the US. When one of them told a Rotary club meeting that her mother was a chemist and her father an engineer, the ladies concluded that she must be from a very small elite.
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American privileged for white americans, maybe?
I know teaching english in say, Korea there is a privilege for white americans but not black americans. In some schools they do not quickly hire black americans or even asian americans.
But I do understand the post and agree with the point it is trying to make. great job. 🙂
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That’s the trouble with using the word “privilege” to describe the things on the list. A US American may have all the attitudes described by the list but Asian directors of studies often assume from the colour of their skin that they don’t speak English well, so they don’t hire them. Or they simply admit that they don’t want black teachers. So much for that advantage, or privilege.
Mei Ly, your comment also brings up the problem with the idea that all People Of Color are somehow brothers united against whiteness. Where do Asians fit into this world view? Especially when they’re denying job opportunities to blacks or other Asians on the basis of race.
Bloggers such as Agabond and Renée Martin of Womanist Musings skirt don’t address this issue, but I end up with the impression that they don’t really see Asians as part of their non-white brotherhood. Except when it suits their narrative. e.g. Philippinos being oppressed by the US.
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Sorry for not commenting here for a while… I guess I missed the latest posts. It wasn’t intentional.
maruja de lujo,
Actually, I do agree with you. I do
However, I don’t think this problem is exclusive to the type of privilege I was talking about. You can say the same about all types of privilege (class, gender, race, etc.)
I guess I assumed “privilege” (in this context) was more of a colloquial term that is used to express the advantages a group of people has that others don’t, as well as using and abusing those advantages. It’s about noting the inequalities and unfairness, and (probably the most important) the POWER IMBALANCE.
The most controversial about this list was the fact I stated even people who are discriminated in the US enjoy American privilege, even if they are not aware of it and even if they suffer a lot in the US. Obviously, these people can use (or abuse) their Americna privilege like some others can. But they still have the privilege.
This issue shows, I think, the weak side of this type of talk about power imbalance, because it presents too narrow and simplified picture. All Americans have US privilege, but what does that mean exactly? What does that mean in terms of other factors (both collective and personal): their gender, their race, their social status, their personal situation? Can a list (be it this one or any other) depict true, human experience? Can a list apply to all of the people that belong to a selected group? *
* Same goes for lists on white privilege, male privilege, class privilege (not that I’ve ever seen one), heterosexual privilege…
I don’t think so. But I don’t it’s the point. It’s not about checking every single point on the list or refusing the idea of privilege because some of the things don’t apply to you. Instead, it can be seen as an opportunity to re-examine the way you think about the issues, and, hopefully, make you think about things you don’t have to think about, because you have said privilege. It can be used as a first step of unlearning prejudice and harmful ways/beliefs your society indoctrinated you with.
PS- Speaking of the above list:
To this day I don’t udnerstand why I chose to write more about media and “everyday life” instead of politics or military. I guess I thought these things go without saying (or maybe it was too painful to write).
If I were to write this post again, I would certainly focus more on the politics, economy and military.
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I think over all I “agree” with american privileged but with a reservation. It’s a bit ironic because this american privileged we say we have is in itself a privileged. But I still think this privileged is more geared towards certain people. My friend who is a black and dark teaches in Korea. The people think she is African. So, she may be treated as an African and not an American meaning she does not get this same privileged.
@Miruja
It’s sad that it is skirted over because this world isn’t only black and white. We shouldn’t ignore people. Why do we do this when we do not want to be ignored?
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Mei Ly,
You are right. That’s why I said it depends a lot on other factors… Different groups of people are treated differently, regardless of US privilege, and it also depends on personal experience.
As for the black Americans, I think this example might show US privilege: in the US, missing white women are considered a huge issue, while people (police, media) often don’t care as much about missing black women. This is a sign of white privilege.
But if said black missing woman disappears in a foreign country, then it will be more of an issue because a US citizen is missing!
As for your friend, I guess it’s local people’s racism. I am no expert on the matter, but I believe many black Americans say they are usually treated better in foreign countries when people realize they are Americans. If people think they are Africans or local blacks, they don’t receive the same treatment.
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“It’s not about checking every single point on the list or refusing the idea of privilege because some of the things don’t apply to you. Instead, it can be seen as an opportunity to re-examine the way you think about the issues, and, hopefully, make you think about things you don’t have to think about, because you have said privilege. ”
Yes. That’s why I thought it was such a great post, and why I’m still going on about it a month later.
But I still think it’s worth pointing out that US Americans’ complacency is used against them by their own elite to rob them of the material advantage that used to go with being a US American.
I realise that when you say “privilege” on this blog you are using it in the way Peggy McIntosh did, and that almost everyone who reads this blog will understand it as you meant it.
But the vast majority of English speakers understand privilege to mean what it means in the dictionary — a special position or advantage not allowed to everybody. It’s only a small group who understand “privilege” to mean what Peggy McIntosh was talking about.
I come across the same problem with the word “racism”. People who discuss it a lot on blogs like this one understand it to mean institutional racism, only attributable to white people (and possibly Asian people). As they spend a lot of time talking to people who use the same terminology, they have no patience with the majority of English speakers who understand “racism” to mean “racial prejudice” as practised by anybody, anywhere, and who are sensitive and well-intentioned enough to be very upset at being accused of racism simply for being white (or, in the case of someone who underwent US-style diversity training in the UK, Indian). Horrible misunderstandings ensue.
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maruja de lujo,
I realise that when you say “privilege” on this blog you are using it in the way Peggy McIntosh did, and that almost everyone who reads this blog will understand it as you meant it.
But the vast majority of English speakers understand privilege to mean what it means in the dictionary — a special position or advantage not allowed to everybody. It’s only a small group who understand “privilege” to mean what Peggy McIntosh was talking about.
You are right: I did use it in the way Peggy McIntosh did. Regulars on this site understood that (even if they didn’t agree with it). But silly me, I completely forgot that this is Internet and that anybody could read the post, and not just Abagond’s regular visitors. My mistake. Still, it was the only way to go
But because I don’t want to repeat the same mistake again, I want to think of a better way to present “male privilege” (another guest post by me Abagond greenglithed).
I come across the same problem with the word “racism”.
Not sure what to say here. To me, racism is closest to the racial prejudice. However, one must never forget about the power difference between whites and POC. So while a non-white person can be a racist individual, he or she doesn’t have the same institutional power like whites do.
Of course, none of this is black and white (ha!) We can argue what, say, “power” means in terms of a white person who gets attacked by blacks. The fact black people don’t have much power is not of an immediate advantage to him while they are punching him and hurting him. However, chances are that his white privilege will still work in his advantage the moment he reports the attack and black guys are arrested. Compare that to the opposite situation- a black man beaten up by whites.
Or rape: a black and a white woman who are victims of interracial rape are both hurt, tortured, etc. I don’t think it’s fair to say to a white victim what happened to her is not a big deal because she’s white.
But it’s NOT the same for the rapists. Of course society would not treat a white and a black man the same.
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Even as I argue about the use of the word “privilege”, I agree that was the only way to go. It’s a more effective way to communicate than my talk of complacency and insularity.
Still, I think it was worth pointing out that the hubris / complacency aspect of privilege is used to convince US Americans to go without the things that are considered universal rights in other rich countries.
Regarding the definition of racism that says only whites’ institutional racism has any real power, and is therefore the only phenomenon deserving of the term “racism”, I see what you mean, but Steven Lawrence (black victim of racist murderers) and Kriss Donald (white victim of racist murderers) are both equally dead, notwithstanding the racist behaviour of the white UK police force following Steven Lawrence’s murder.
Well, I look forward to your post on male privilege. Hefty subject, that! If you don’t make a list yourself, I hope you link to one like Ampersand’s at Alas, A Blog. I’d love to see what people here say about it.
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Mirjana,
Your English is good. You don’t like Stephenie Meyer?! Wow. Most girls love the Twilight series in the U.S. How were people’s reactions/responses to the Twilight books/movies in your country? I’m just really curious.
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[…] decent job, great health benefits, great apartment and amazing friends here in America give up thatprivilege to be a foreigner in another country, especially considering the sheer amount of xenophobia we hear […]
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I think this could easily be summed up in one word: Republican.
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I’m guilty of the internet one. Or, I was until I started blogging on a world-wide social networking site.
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Hi I am actually doing a paper on First World Problems and the dangers of american privilege and want to know if I can use (and cite of course) some of this article. It hits right on a lot of the points I’m trying to make. Thanks so much for this read.
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I find that upon meeting people from other nations, they are not always the way I expected them to be. That is, I read up on the culture before I visit somewhere new, I learn the language to the best of my ability or I stick with some one who knows the language and can speak for me, and I leave for the destination with a certain set of expectations that are not always entirely met. For example, I thought living in England would be wonderful because I loved it when I visited in the past and my family there was so kind to me. After moving there and being fully immersed in the culture, I found that things were not what they had seemed. Everyone around me had instant judgements about who I was and what kind of beliefs I had, and I was harassed frequently just for being American. More importantly, they had all kinds of assumptions about what America was like. Almost everything they thought was incorrect. Just because they spoke to people online or watched American movies and TV shows they thought they knew American culture. I had to explain to them that we are just as complex as they are, and the US government does NOT equal the citizens in nature. In fact, most Americans I know want to get the hell out of other countries and just mind our own business. It’s not our fault that the big corporations have all the power and lobby for the politicians to eat out of their hands.
I’m tired of being harassed for being American. What should I do? Should I kill myself? It seems I should because no matter what I will always be a privileged asshole, even if I don’t think in the way you have described and neither do many of my friends and family. I am sick of apologizing for my nation. I am so tired of apologizing for things that are completely out of my power and often happened before I was even born. I cannot help it that I was born American. I wish I wasn’t, I wish so badly that I was from another country so that I didn’t have so much hate on my shoulders for merely EXISTING.
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Okay, I have read this post 3 times now: I read it a while ago, I read it last night, and I read it again this morning. The first time I read it, it didn’t bother me as much, because I don’t generally have a lot of love for America (yeah, sorry, it’s true) and I felt like many Americans probably DO feel that way because, well, I’ve seen it in media and even occasionally in person. But last night when I read it, I had a problem with it. And I couldn’t figure out why, but I realized it this morning. Here’s why: this list is so generalizing, and assuming of so many people from one nation, and though it comes from some one less privileged than me and I do not deny those privileges, I realize I have the freedom as an individual to believe what I think is right, and I don’t think your entire list is correct. As an American, I realize I have loads of privilege over many many people. Trust me, I think about it all the time and I don’t like it, but I want to go through this list one by one to say what I think on the matter.
“Seeing your nation as “default” – it is normal, everybody else is “different”.”
Okay, the only way I have ever seen my nation as “normal” while everyone else is “different” is when I just think of it as my home. Just like if I visit another state within the United States, it’s a bit different, and my state is what I am used to, so for ME it is normal. But I don’t think of it as normal in the way you have tried to spell out for me how I think for myself.
“Assuming your cultural norms are universal.”
No. I don’t assume this and I never have. I have traveled outside of the US countless times, to all kinds of different countries, and I even lived in Europe for a while (I just returned last summer, actually, from living in London) and I never assumed people would just automatically have my cultural norms. Just reading this makes me think, “WHAT?” The only thing that sort of caught me off guard when I traveled to Europe is the way that people seem to smile less, even less than I anticipated after reading that Europeans find American “friendliness” to be superficial. Still, I didn’t really care, I just noticed it.
” Not knowing what is like to have war in your homeland.”
This one is definitely true and I acknowledge this privilege COMPLETELY.
” Expecting people in other countries to speak your language when you travel abroad.”
Yeah…I’m not personally guilty of this, and I haven’t traveled with anyone who is, but I have heard of this before, so I won’t say you made it up or anything like that. I mean, as for this whole list, you didn’t make them up, I’m sure some American somewhere ruined it for all of us acting like an idiot, but I want to say that I have NEVER just traveled to a country that doesn’t speak English and EXPECTED them to know English.
“Assuming everybody knows, or should know, your culture (even things like the “American Idol” contestants).”
No. I don’t do this one either. Hell, I don’t even know them.
“Assuming nobody else has any of the technological advantages you have – like not knowing how to use a computer or even an oven.”
NO. NO. NO. Just….NO. I have never ever thought this in my life.
“Believing everything you see on the news, even though it is told from the American point of view and is not a universal truth.”
And…this is where I start to get insulted (if I’m even allowed to be insulted, since I’m in a state of superior privilege) because this is just ridiculous. Yeah, I don’t have a brain of my own, do I? And neither do any Americans. Didn’t anyone tell you? We are braindead zombies who worship our TVs and believe everything anyone tells us. We also have no access to international news stations or any other outside media. UM NO. I know you said in your comments that as a white person you can (though you don’t) appreciate a racist joke, but I have to say that this one about the media could apply to anyone, anywhere in any country. Yeah, anyone could blindly follow everything they hear on TV. Just saying that Americans do is like saying we are some kind of sub-human species.
“Assuming everybody wants to live in America, since it is the best place to live (even without universal health care).”
*sigh* Again…no. Yes, we have had large boughts of immigration in the past, but that doesn’t mean I think this place is the best place to live. Still, I think that you are right in saying that lots of Americans think this way, but I don’t think you quite captured it. I am an American, you know, so I would know better than some one who isn’t American, how Americans think. I think that there are some Americans who think exactly the way you have portrayed them, but I think more often you will find that they think everyone wants to live here because of certain areas of high immigration. Then they must think, “Well, I guess that if they want to come here, they must not be doing well in their country of origin.” I know more Americans who think this way than what you have said.
“Seeing people from other countries as inferior to you, even if they are highly educated and successful.”
I HAVE NEVER EVER DONE THIS. And again, any country could potentially fall under this critique. This is bullshit!
“Having plenty of movies and TV shows in your language, full of people from your country, showing your culture and way of life.”
Yeah this one is true.
“Becoming famous or successful much more easily even if you suck at what you do.”
This is true, too, I believe.
” Assuming everyone on the Internet is American.”
Well I haven’t done this either. I’ve never even heard of anyone around me even talking about it anyway. Like, I’ve never heard some one go, “OMG this dude is NOT American….what a surprise!” As if the internet is only for Americans….what the hell.
“Believing everybody else wants to adopt the American way of life. If they do not, there is something wrong with them. If they do not, America is going make them.”
Mostly no on this one. Certainly for myself this is a major NO. In fact, I once had to write a paper on globalization and I was absolutely flabbergasted when this dude on a documentary said, “Most of these countries want to be like America.” I simply couldn’t believe my ears. Maybe it is because I have been to France so much and the French clearly do not want to be American? I do not know, but something somewhere prevented me from thinking that other countries want to be like us. As for America “making them” be more Americanized…I don’t know if you added that as your own thoughts, or if you were still listing a privilege. Either way I want to answer that thinking that America would force their ways might only be true on one side of it. What I mean is, yes, my nasty and disgusting government has a history of imperalism and they may invade a country, take down the current government and try to hastily erect a new, “American-style” one (sounds painfully familiar, doesn’t it?) but that doesn’t mean the American ways will stick. People have their own minds and free will, after all. Nations that are not the United States are not just sponges ready to absorb everything the US hurls at them. They have their own minds and can stand their ground. To say otherwise is a discredit to them as freethinkers.
“You can take the liberty of shortening or changing people’s names if they are hard for you to pronounce.”
I never do this one either, though I know exactly what you mean. Although, I haven’t witnessed a case of anyone saying, “Yeah I can’t say your name so I’m just going to call you Al” or something like that, but I won’t say it never happens. From my experience, anyone who did have a shortened name or Americanized name introduced themselves that way to me before I ever had a chance to know their real name. But you can bet your ass that if I knew their real name I would USE it if that is what they said they prefered. Damn.
” Believing America is fair and free. Everybody else lives in a mess.”
I think many Americans are well aware of what a total pile of crap we are living in these days. Those who don’t are just in denial.
“Assuming everybody wants the USA to help them.”
I think a lot of Americans feel this way, so I won’t argue it, but I myself happen to know better.
“Seeing the USA as the best nation there is and being confused when others feel the same about their own countries.”
Well, I don’t think the US is the best nation, and I haven’t found another nation that I think is “the best” yet, and again, this statement could apply to other nations, too.
“Being confused about people who do not like the USA or those who think it is not perfect. They must be jealous!”
I KNOW firsthand of people like this, so it is totally true. I don’t feel this way…in fact I am actually confused when I hear someone likes us…cause I don’t like America as a government, as a pile of corporations either. I also can’t stand the amount of oppression inflicted on people both inside and outside of the US in the name “freedom” like my oh-so-loving government would like me to believe. I think its total bullshit. But…I have heard people say, “I don’t know why everyone hates us…I guess it’s just jealousy,” so I have to let you have this one.
What I really don’t like about your list here is that I think it paints the wrong picture of American people. Say what you want about the government and all, but just because Americans are portrayed this way, or maybe some of them act this way, you cannot just generalize the entire nation to be the bumbling, ego-centric fools you have made them out to be. Do you not see how this is extremely insulting? I reckon you don’t care if you insult Americans because I’m sure our privilege is insulting and frustrating to you. However, as someone who is not as privileged as white men, for example, I know what privilege is all about, and just because I know white men have an advantage in life over me, that doesn’t mean I can group them all together and make assumptions about how they think. Certain things, like the fact that they can rest assured (in English speaking nations) that most “titles” for career positions will contain the word “man” at the end (mailman, congressman, etc.) is true. But I couldn’t say, “You think that women are less intelligent, and therefore less worthy of entering the public domain” because that would be assuming that they think that way. You made the argument that someone COULD think “that way” about your list of privileges and therefore it gives Americans a privilege. The problem I have with that statement is that anyone anywhere can think whatever they like. I think what you mean to say is that IF Americans think that way it has a real effect on others, whereas other countries don’t have the same power or economical clout and therefore, thinking these things would be a waste of time. But I want to be honest with you here, it seems to me that you don’t know enough Americans. And you making this list is a power in and of itself. Why? because people who are not American will read this and believe it, eat it all up, and then turn it against unsuspecting Americans as hatred and contempt. And if you think, “Good, let America experience all the hatred possible because they deserve it after their government ruined everyone’s lives” then you are just as bad, if not worse than America. The only example I can really use is white men again, and let me tell you, if I had the opportunity to turn the tables, and make women be superior to men, I wouldn’t do it. I would never want men to have to go through this oppression. I want equality, not superiority.
As an American, I can tell you that you have American people all wrong. We are not saints or anything like that, and few people make the effort of awareness that I do, but the point is, you have the wrong idea about what makes them tick. The truth is, Americans are not stupid, they are not mindless zombies who believe all that the media tells them, and they do not have all these lofty opinions about the US compared to the rest of the world. Their TRUE identity and problem is this: APATHY. Americans are generally apathetic about anything international/political. They simply don’t care. So no, they don’t have all these assumptions…they just don’t care. Hell, it’s hard enough to get anyone to VOTE over here. It seems the only people who do care are either the idiots that ruin our reputations or the occasional activist like me. A lot of “giving a shit” is left to the fundamentalist religious groups and the rich who want to protect their money. That’s it. Your everyday American could care less about what America means to the rest of the world, what America is doing, and what is even going on beyond our borders. In fact, 70% of all Americans will never leave the country and do not even have passports. They just don’t care to. Americans are tired and stressed out at their jobs, they don’t feel like they have time to get involved in anything. Believe me, I would know, I live here and am surrounded by Americans. When I told friends and family I was going to school for International studies with a focus in global business and politics and a minor in cultural studies, they all just sighed and said, “Uhhhg. How boring. I just hope you find work.”
So if you want to hate Americans, hate them for true reason of being lethargic, apathetic, selfish slugs. Don’t attempt to paint them with all kinds of stereo-types, it’s a waste of time and only promotes ignorance and blind hatred toward a group of people. Don’t forget, no one gets to choose where they were born. I accept my privilege of living in a highly influential and powerful country that has many opportunities and benefits that no one else shares, but I will not own up to this idiotic way of thinking you have suggested.
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Kari,
Where did I write: “ALL Americans are X”?
Also, criticizing is not the same as hate. I don’t hate Americans.
I’ll get back later for a longer reply.
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Calling others “privileged” is just a cheesy way of blaming others for their success rather than oneself for one’s failure.
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@kari:
“I find that upon meeting people from other nations, they are not always the way I expected them to be. That is, I read up on the culture before I visit somewhere new, I learn the language to the best of my ability or I stick with some one who knows the language and can speak for me, and I leave for the destination with a certain set of expectations that are not always entirely met.”
That is part of the problem americans very often have. They assume they know what and how abroad is since they have read some books and perhaps learned the language. That is also why their government thinks they know what is best for the world.
“For example, I thought living in England would be wonderful because I loved it when I visited in the past and my family there was so kind to me. After moving there and being fully immersed in the culture, I found that things were not what they had seemed. Everyone around me had instant judgements about who I was and what kind of beliefs I had, and I was harassed frequently just for being American. More importantly, they had all kinds of assumptions about what America was like. Almost everything they thought was incorrect.”
A good example. Just like americans, like yourself, are usually incorrect about England.
As someone who has lived in USA twice I can say this: it is a wonderful land but its government is horribly corrupted. There are wonderful people but the ignorance is sometimes ashtonising. Americans have excellent ideas, like fairness and help your fellow man, but they don’t seem to apply those ideas too often nor too widely in every day life. Freedom and free speech are excellent ideas but again, americans seem to be doing all they can to curtail both. I have no idea why.
I love american food, music, arts, litterature and movies, the whole bit. I have lived in Mid West and in NYC and both were beautiful places and in both I met great people. I have many american friends. But then again, I also met highly educated ignoramouses who did not know much of anything but based on their academic status thoughed they knew something.
Biggest thing that bothered me was the culture of Fear. Americans seemed to be affraid of something all the time and this lead into some strange behaviour, racism included. I also was not that exited about fire arms.
Mira for one should know how does it feel when outsiders label you and your country just because the leadership are big time crooks and butchers, and because nationalistic boneheads take over. And just look at how Russia and russian are seen in your country. Does it ring bell? Yeap, just like others are seeing USA: monolithic power hun gry suscpicous violent country full of, well, suspicious people.
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“A good example. Just like americans, like yourself, are usually incorrect about England.” Yeah, I mean, the UK is somewhat popular over here, and most American people find the accents to be great and everything, but people do not learn much beyond that and the history stuff they are taught in high school. As some one who has lived there, in London and in Essex, I had the privilege of really getting to know the real England. Part of it was lovely, actually probably most of it. But it was not perfect. I was bullied by a group of students in my uni before I even had said anything more than my name and where I was from. I was teased endlessly about how stupid my country is, I was speculated over for not being fat, people assumed I loved McDonald’s and all kinds of other silly things, but worst of all, I was physically assaulted and for no reason other than being American. It was hard to cope, but I do have English family so they would try to make me feel better. After a while I started lying about where I was from and putting on fake accents. It was easier to live that way.
I know America sucks, I do. I really do. Trust me, if I didn’t know it before I left, I know it now. I have no problem at all with people critiquing it, or even critiquing the people (though it is impossible to do so without generalizing) but it just really gets old after a while. I just feel like saying, “Okay, alright, I get it. I suck by default. I’ll go die now.” and either never leaving the US again (ew) or just dying or something. I mean, it sucks to be part of a nation that is so powerful and so crappy. People can’t stand you before they even meet you.
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“I HAVE NEVER, EVER DONE THIS … This is bullshit!”
Kari, I can almost see you storm upstairs to slam your bedroom door and hurl yourself onto your bed, sobbing: “Why is everyone so mean to me?”
Mira didn’t write the post about you. She observed a certain world view among a nation of 300 million people and she gave the benefit of her perspective as a non-native. She’s not just talking about individual people, but of the mindset that shapes news reports, websites, talk shows, novels and films and so on. Surely you can see that.
It sounds as if you have an interesting perspective, too, as a young US American going to university in the UK. But you’re not giving it; you’re just rambling, contradicting yourself, and vomiting your hurt feelings onto this thread. Do pull yourself together and try to write like a grown-up. Deep down, under all that over-the-top petulance and self-absorption, I’m sure you have something interesting to say.
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I’ll attempt to respond to these as I see it.
Seeing your nation as “default” – it is normal, everybody else is “different”.
People in every country do this. In fact, I’ve seen surveys regarding world’s worst tourists – The one saying “Americans” is the most popular, but I have seen surveys slamming the French, Russians, Germans, and Chinese as well.
Assuming your cultural norms are universal.
People in every country do this.
Not knowing what is like to have war in your homeland.
Well, we’re hardly unique in this either.
Expecting people in other countries to speak your language when you travel abroad.
English is the most popular language in terms of global distribution of speakers. Spanish comes second. In terms of assumption, there are far more ignorant ones one could make.
Assuming everybody knows, or should know, your culture (even things like the “American Idol” contestants).
In all fairness, elements of USA pop culture are known across the world.
Assuming everybody wants to live in America, since it is the best place to live (even without universal health care).
We still get a lot of people trying to get into the US. We have this lovely myth of Ellis Island, too.
Seeing people from other countries as inferior to you, even if they are highly educated and successful.
Well, for me, that depends on their worldview more than anything. Do they still hold to outdated notions of caste systems, honor-killings, racism, gay-bashing, fundamentalism, or other “junk beliefs”? Plenty of people here do that too, and some of them can even claim to be highly educated and successful.
Becoming famous or successful much more easily even if you suck at what you do.
Of course your local hero is better, regardless of whether or not they really are. Cultural Prejudice disguised as Pride cuts both ways, as does subjectivity.
Believing everybody else wants to adopt the American way of life. If they do not, there is something wrong with them. If they do not, America is going make them.
I think increasing individual liberty on a global scale is a good thing. While there other countries that are better in some ways, I think all in all we have a fairly good set-up compared to a lot of the world. I’m not a Moral Relativist: I agree with a lot of what Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris have to say about Western (not necessarily American, mind you) ways being better.
You can take the liberty of shortening or changing people’s names if they are hard for you to pronounce.
Other people don’t do this? Honestly, have you ever heard a westerner’s name transliterated into Japanese? The phonemes and speech patterns they’re familiar with don’t include a lot of what we’re familiar with. Same goes for my own difficulties with Hindi and Greek names.
The ones I haven’t answered are points I consider to be more valid. Let the flaming commence.
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Okay so just because I criticized this post I’m immature? Also you had a lot of things to call me, but you didn’t explain how I fit those descriptions. For example, just how did I contradict myself? You’re right about some things: yeah, I have been hurt in the past, but not by blog posts, by people who read into these kinds of things in their papers and then verbally and physically harmed me. That’s my point. It is great to have different perspectives, but I would appreciate some language that is less generalizing.
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Kari,
You’re cool, man. I get it. You are a great guy and a decent human being. I get it. Seriously. May the hair on your toes never fall out.
But this is just ridiculous. You’re actively trying to a) put things in my mouth and b) make me feel guilty because I hurt your feelings.
Your reaction seems suspiciously like the infamous white women’s tears, when white women derail the conversation about racism by focusing on their hurt feelings because somebody pointed out they said something racist. Only it’s even weirder in your case, since nobody accused you of anything.
Nobody says this list is perfect. I know it isn’t. There are many things I’d change, mainly, the fact I focused on seemingly small stuff (such as media), and ignoring the more serious displays of American privilege, such as military interventions in various parts of the world. I’d also add more about the last part, where I point out that American of all races, even if they are discriminated within the US, still have American privilege.
But seriously, your hurt feelings aren’t the issue here. Nor is your belief the list is generalized (of course it is; it’s never said or implied all Americans are like this). Don’t try to derail the conversation from the issues of American privilege by focusing on your hurt feelings or what you think non-Americans should think about America.
Don’t you think those who belong to under privileged groups have a right to speak for themselves, for once? Or to speak the way they see the West, for a change? Because the whole world is seen, more or less, the way groups with power want you to see it: men, whites, able bodied people, heterosexuals, etc Powerful groups label others and they have a power to judge their destiny based on this image (as all unprivileged groups know). So this is why it’s important to give voices to the underprivileged to a) label themselves the way THEY, and not the more privileged groups, see themselves and b) to state the way they see the more powerful groups.
I’m not saying that mistakes in judgement should be ignored if a speaker comes from an underprivileged group. On the contrary. Constructive discussion is needed. But focusing on “white women’s tears” is not productive. It takes voices away from the underprivileged and it focus them, once again, on the more privileged, more powerful group, as if their opinion and their view and their needs and their feelings are more important than the underprivileged.
Also, if members of underprivileged groups make an observation privileged people don’t agree with, isn’t it more productive to ask yourself: “why did they say this? Why do they feel this and how did they come to this conclusion?” Not: “Noooo, you’re so wrong, we’re not like this!!!!”
Did you ever stopped for a moment to think why I named these things I named here? (And I don’t even think on individuals; I never think of individuals – I do believe “a person is good and people are crap” philosophy, and most of the Americans I know are pretty decent and non-ignorant). However, did you ever stop to think what made me (or anybody else, for that matter) feel this way or come to these conclusions?
For example, if I want to use Internet, or to communicate with other people, I need to speak a foreign language. All. the. time. I need to understand your money and your politicians (who the heck is that Santorum guy that pops in my Yahoo inbox whenever I go to check my email?) and why should I care? Why do people have to assume I’m from America (until proven otherwise), and why do I have to know your feet and inches or whatever these things are. Why do people have to assume I celebrate Christmas on December 25th, and when I say that I don’t, they assume I don’t celebrate Chrismas at all?
Ok, these are all small stuff. But these are the stuff that those having American (or Western) privilege never have to think about.
And don’t get me started on the bigger things. For example, why do I have to hide from bombs in a basement for my 18th birthday?
The thing is, I believe you, Kari, when you say you don’t do or don’t believe in most of the things I named here. But the poit is, it’s just your good will or good heart that make you refuse to do so. If you wanted to do it, you could. Not to mention you carry your American privilege around, whether you like it or not (like, for example, you could go into the most countries of the world if you can afford it, without much asking, because your pasport protects you. God forbid somebody tried to kidnap you or hurt you – your pasport will make a big deal out of it). Not to mention you can live in your country knowing it’s so powerful you won’t wake up with it being colonized or populated by enemy soldiers. This is simply something that’s normal to you but guess what? Not everybody has the same luxury.
And THAT’s is what makes every type of a privilege: ordinary, normal life. Not luxury. Not worry-free, private island, swimming in the money life. Just ordinary, normal life conditions. That is what privilege gives to those who are privileged.
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instantfutures,
People in every country do this.
This is correct. Assuming your own norms are how things should be and others are “weird” seem to be pretty universial. So the only difference is that US (and some other Western countries) have more power to force their norms on others. (More about it later).
Not knowing what is like to have war in your homeland.
Well, we’re hardly unique in this either.
More unique than you might think, especially since Americans do get involved in many wars, though they somehow avoid being attacked themselves most of the time.
English is the most popular language in terms of global distribution of speakers.
And why do you think this happens? It didn’t come out of nowhere. In my grandma’s days, French was lingua franca.
Also, why not Mandarin Chinese or Spanish?
Now, don’t get me wrong, I’d rather have to learn English than French; I’ve learned them both, in fact, and I can’t speak a word of French. English is suitable because it’s relatively easy to learn, comparing to other languages (Spanish, French, Russian, Mandarin).
But still, learning a foreign language to accomodate somebody else (or, even worse, to be able to communicate with others) requires an effort that has to be respected. I mean, I don’t expect anybody to kiss my butt for accomodating to their language, but at least acknowledge it’s not something “normal, the way it should be”, but that it’s an effort all non-native English speakers have to go through.
In all fairness, elements of USA pop culture are known across the world.
Once again, why is this happening? Because US popular culture is somehow more entertaining and more suitable for all the world population, or because of something else?
We still get a lot of people trying to get into the US. We have this lovely myth of Ellis Island, too.
This isn’t about the way non-Americans see America, but how Americans see it. This can make people uncritical when it comes to their government wrongdoings (and, let’s face it, wherever you live in the world, chances are that your government is trying to brainwash you with something. US, for example, has a horrible, inhumane health care system. And while there are some people who see how bad it is, it’s obviously not enough people.
Of course your local hero is better, regardless of whether or not they really are.
I have no idea what you’re talking about. I was refering to the fact that there are so many famous Americans who are famous for… nothing, really, while there are so many talented actors, singers, artists, writers, etc. all around the world nobody knows of. Even if that “all around the world” is a successful Western nation, such as UK.
I think increasing individual liberty on a global scale is a good thing. While there other countries that are better in some ways, I think all in all we have a fairly good set-up compared to a lot of the world.
So, if I think cutting a healthy part of baby genitalia is disgusting and wrong, you will disagree because that’s normal practice in the US?
Look, America is not perfect, and it’s not near perfect either. It’s not BAD, but there are so many things Americans should fight for to make their country better and more free (when are you going to elect an atheist president, btw?) So while I don’t want to tell Americans what they should do, I do think there are enough bad things in all countries (including the US) for citizens to focus on their own country’s local problems and to try to make their country better. Americans seem to focus way too much on what “evil, backward third world does” instead of improving lives of their own people, such as, again, that inhumane, horrible health care system of yours. If that’s not violation of human rights, then I don’t know what it is. Shouldn’t American people do something about it before they try to preach others against honor killings? (Don’t get me wrong, I don’t approve honor killings and they don’t exist in my culture. But isn’t the goal to clean your own back yard first, so to speak, and then focus on other people’s? That;s nothing you can do about what’s going on in Middle East or wherever, but you can do something about your own country’s health care).
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Actualy , Im going to confess now, Ive lived outside of the states for 26 years now. Where I live has lots of anti Americanism, and if it gets any where near me, Im going to wade right in it and stand up to it.
Of course, Ive made a serious effort to learn all the dirt that the USA has really been involved with and then Im going to learn the rest of the dirt that is the reality also. So I can stand up to the falsity and hypocracy.
I dont give this “American privalege” thing much credibility , not that it doesnt exist , it does, but with a lot of other privleged people in the world. There are plenty of other countries with no war on their soil, there are plenty of countries where the passport is respected as much as an American passport.Some of the things you have mentioned , Mira, seem petty to me, and I respect you a lot.
The reason I dont buy into your term is the same reason I didnt buy into the post about “black America privalige”, a thread that was on here before. Its just piggy backing on the “white privelage in America” the,e that is an important one to address.These attempts to take over that term and aply it to something else just water down the original purpose for that term.
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Yes, most of the time, American privilege can be equated to Western privilege. Which means most First world nations share it.
But I still don’t see any of this as being anti-American. How is saying: “ok, I understand Trayvon Martin case is important for you, but hey, we have local problems (including, but not limited to, hate crimes)” anti-American? Or saying: “my favourite foreign movie is the Godfather”, hoping nobody will “correct” you by adding “the Godfather is not a foreign movie, you ^&$%%^&”.
Stuff like this. It isn’t really about the American politics, because, frankly, a government will do what a government wants to do, people like it or not (and this goes for America and all the other countries in the world). It’s not about being anti-US (or West). It’s simply giving voices to those who don’t have a privilege to belong to the west.
This is also extremely important for this website here (which, I assume, has many non-white commenters and visitors), because it’s worth thinking about the differences (and lack of privilege) other, non-western POC have to face. I am sad to say that most of the feminists and anti-racists are Westerners – at least most of those whose papers we have a chance to read. What about what is considered a third world? Do western POC really believe they can speak for them? Even on this site- this site – it’s rarely talked about stuff that doesn’t concern US or West. I understand the author is American, who is concerned with local issues (which is, like I said, always a good thing; before you try to “correct” others, look at your own country and see what can be done and what’s bad in it). Still, people often forget the way Americans see, define and experience racism, sexism or any other issue of this type is not universal. And, like we saw in the racism in Europe post, these subjects are often not discussed. Not here, on Abagonds (local, semi-personal blog). I mean in public, academic arenas.
I don’t see it as “American/Western bashing”. I see it as: “hey, the rest of the world exists, too, and it has a lot to say”. An opinion is no more valid because it was said by a Westerner, just like a life of a Westerner is no more valid than any other life. I sure don’t see it as bashing or being anti-American/West.
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Mira, I dont consider this thread or you anti American.
I apreciete we are discussing it
The most true thing I beleive you said was your own experiance hiding from bombs….I dont know the real deal on that situation but I have to take pause at your experiances and ackowledge it
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One of the things I wanted to address is this thing about the “American media”….It took me until about 15 or 16 to start realising that it is one big bigoted hype machine
Im really sorry you have had to swallow all the junk they threw out there, but, once you realise how bad it is, you can easily find something else
By the way, its not really America, its huge gigantic international corporations, I think 2 of them, Sony and Virgen are Japanese and British.
Its really, what do you think, about 200 or a few more people making all these desicians about who gets to get out there and whodoesnt. and, because they are international, they have branches in all the countries and they just feed the drek back and forth
I dont know why anyone would like rock and roll, an aberhation of black American music, when they could listen to James Brown.
A very few people make huge desicians and put out false images of who America is . The real treasure of American culture is just buried.
Doesnt India have a thriving fil industry? doesnt Nigera have a local thing? Doesnt Idia have great influence on countries around them with their films?
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As for media, they do what they do. They are doing it in all the countries. It’s not an US-specific thing. There’s a lot of rubbish everywhere. Serbian TV movies (or regular movies) and series are rubbish lately, due to nepotism: you have the same 3 actors and directors doing the same stuff. So no, America isn’t the only one with rubbish media.
I actually like American cinematography and I like American music (rock – more about that later), and I am sometimes angry because I can’t get to the really quality stuff because some stupid Hollywood crap or some Britney Spears thing is forced down my throat (just like it’s forced down American throats). It’s interesting to watch popular American movies, though, from anthropological point of view. Movies ARE propaganda, but they are not aimed at foreigners – they are directed to the American people. So it’s not really about the way America wants others to see it; it’s more about the way America wants Americans to see it.
Now, about rock music, I think it’s one of the most uniquely US cultural products. It was shaped (in an unfortunate way, though) between different races and you can’t deny this influence. As for why listening rock instead of James Brown, well, I like James Brown, but I like other types of music. The thing is, this music, all genres of it, along with some other music genres, are uniquely American to the fullest. I have no idea why Americans don’t claim rock music as their unique cultural product and tradition, the way they claim some other things I might not see as uniquely American (for example, democracy). So I guess it’s more about the politics – both in America and in my country.
You see, rock music i very popular here. It’s not just music, it’s often a political statement. Here, rock is liked by intellectuals and those who are educated and urban (here, urban means intellectual and more cosmopolitan and educated, as the opposite of rural – this is a generalization, but this is how it’s seen). On the other hand, rural people and less educated and more conservative like Serbian folk, which is… Well, imo, one of the most horrible music genres in this side of Milky Way.
Again, this is a generalization, but the point is, rock is important here. Plus, I was surprised to learn it’s seen as a white genre of music in the US. I mean, WTF? I understand others don’t see it that way, but to me, rock is one of the most unique and most essentially American cultural products, and also one of the best things, culturally, about the US.
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@ Mira
Wow, such interesting comments. It is like watching you be me only it is American privilege you are arguing against instead of white privilege within America. This is great.
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Mira, I just want to let you know this is just my opinion here , and I dont know if the average American breaks down like I do .
This thing about rock for me is this, the rock players are the worst players compared to jazz, funk, rhythm and blues. The harmonic depth of rock and rollers is pretty limeted except the jazz players who play rock for money
They get huge success and glory when James Brown had to play the “chitlen circut ” (black clubs thoughout the USA ) and only after Rocky “some number i forgot”, and “The Blues Brothers” did he start getting wider recognition.
I would like to say, I dont think its Ameica who makes films about America, its these giant international media corporations who make these films for Americans….and , for me, they never really portray the rel America…and I do like films too..but, they dont really depict a reality I can relate to.They may gear them to American emotions because America is a major market. Of course, Hollywood is in America, but when you break down that is a very very few people making these desicians about what gets out there and what gets made and they are backstabbing each other to death ,its hard to just classify them as America is making these films.
By the way , I forgot to incude that Globo from Brazil is a gigantic novela producer and exporter of their novelas.
Also interesting to note, about that English thing, isnt it ironic that when I travel to the States anualy for business, to cities like Miami, New York, Los Angeles, New Mexico, I actualy hear more Spanish than English….God works in stange ways….doesnt she ?
Again , let me emphazise, I know there is American privalege, I just think there is a lot of other privalege around the world. I think there are passports that are as accepted as the America passport, and, the truth is , Americans are dispized in a lot of places. And, strictly my opinoin here,the “privalege ” word gets watered down and clouds up the issue it was used for originaly describing “white privalege”
I respect your posts very much , so this is no condemnation of your opinion
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For us US citizens living overseas, who think US culture and society has so many deplorable elements to it, who find the US often uses belligerent methods both domestically and internationally yet has never learned to live with its own domestic “race” problem (instead of embracing it for what it is), who use the local overseas languages daily and participate in the local culture and never flaunt that we can trace our origin to that corner of North America and are not enthusiastic about returning there any time soon, are we still enjoying “American Privilege”?
And for us Americans of multiracial background, who feel alienated and cutoff from their “white” heritage, but still reminded daily of it — are we still enjoying white privilege? or sometimes the “worst” of both worlds?
BTW, I like the mention about rock music. If only the USA can use that as a source of pride in their Euro-African cultural base, something that is uniquely American, but embraced around the world.
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Just my opinon, Jefe, jazz would be a better source of pride in their Euro African cultural base…..yes , I can say I am very biased about jazz over rock
Mira, I just want to say this, I have lived outside the USA for 26 years, as I mentioned on another thread. There is a lot of anti Americanisn in this country…some justified … a lot not.For a decade, I tried to tell myself the reason it was hard getting work in a place I was over qualified, had nothing to do with anti Americanism. But it started to slowly sink in that I was being cut out exactly because I was American. And, in many other ways , I have had to endure petty humiliations and marginalisation. I have been screamed at many times by people in passing cars and buses, and, people whispering under their breath thinking I dont understand , to “get out of my land”. So, as much as I didnt really want to come in here, my instincts prevented me from desisting. So anything I say is prefaced with that in mind,and, in my day to day life, I dont feel I receive American privalege in this foreign country. I do agree with you that American privalege exists…and Im going to try to desist from posting on it for now
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Bulanik , I hate rock, guess how I feel about that?
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nope, its that in 100 years they wont be studying rock and the beatles and rolling stones and bob dylan, they are gong to be studying John Coltrane and Miles Davis
and…
Also, Bulanik, its slightly off topic and I dont want to get busted on that , so, please, I invite you to either meet me on Open Thread or take me to another thread ( Marvin Gaye), it would be my pleasure to discuss this with you, I have some very important points to make about that
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Please, I beg you, wisk me away to another thread, just let me know, Id love to tell why….hint right now they dont study these people in the major music institutions, they do study the jazz very deeply that was going on at the time of these rock groups
I love how it looks like your avatar is growling at me and I am getting mine looks like Im getting my tail whipped
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@BR
True, both jazz and rock (ie, rock and roll) trace their origins to a synthesis of Euro-American and African-American musical traditions, but rock is much more ubiquitous around the world and copied in more places.
But I agree — America should look at the global pervasiveness of its musical influence on the world (eg, jazz, rock) that clearly demonstrates cultural synergy of its Euro-African heritage, something that could be a source of shared national pride. There are so many other things to be ashamed of (of which this blog has addressed in great detail); at least we can all appreciate shared experiences like that.
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B.R. Who is John Coltrane? 🙂
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As jazz vs rock: apples and oranges. Jazz is clearly superior, and yes, jazz is quintessentially American. However, while I understand it;s great, I was never a fan. You can tell I’m not musically educated enough or talented enough to comprehend it (I like blues, though). But yes, jazz can be seen as one of the uniquely American cultural products.
Now, the reason why I got myself fixated on rock is, well, totally subjective: it’s the kind of music I like to listen :P. But the reason I called it one of the best American cultural products is because I feel it represents a good case of mixing the influences across the racial borders. Sure, you can (rightfully) say the mixing wasn’t consensual: whites did steal the black music without question and apology. But rock did receive a lot from white musicians as well, so the resulting product is effectively a mix that, I believe, can be said to belong to both blacks and whites, or America as a whole. With jazz, it’s different: it is a black music that whites took for themselves without changing anything. While I believe blacks are as American as whites are, and while I believe African American music (such as jazz or rap) IS quintessentially American, it’s not a product of mixing (in racial sense) the way rock is.
Or maybe I talk rubbish here and somebody will correct me.
Now, for non-American rock influence… Beatles who? Ok, well, they are a nice pop band, but they aren’t rock in the full sense of the word, imo. There was the early rock, which was American. And then there was European rock, which is another beast altogether, with their unique rock genres. But while British invasion is important for bringing rock to the mainstream, I don’t believe it was crucial for it’s development when it comes to the influence. Obviously, this is just my opinion and we can discuss this issue.
BTW, the “black” part of rock is not really about its roots, though they can’t be forgotten. Let’s not forget about the man who reinvented rock music and in many ways made it for what it is (and he also happened to be black): Jimi Hendrix.
Oh, and without going too off topic, I’d really like to ask Abagond about possible post about black rock musicians.
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Abagond,
Wow, such interesting comments. It is like watching you be me only it is American privilege you are arguing against instead of white privilege within America. This is great.
I think it’s because of similar ways to be blind to it or to derail a discussion about it.
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@Bulanik
Some commentators on rock have emphasized that the British impact brought in important innovations and trends without which future developments wouldn’t have been possible
I agree here with what you say. Yes, there is an American influence, for example, Eric Clapton cites musicians like Freddie King and BB King as huge influences in terms of his music.
The need to diversify and innovate to escape the gloom following the aftermath of WWII encouraged many of these guys to pick up an instrument or sing, maybe initially as a form of escapism.
Do I dare say that perhaps in terms of the artists mentioned they were able to innovate and experiment with different styles and sounds that crossed boundaries such as race and culture etc in a way that perhaps musicians in the U.S were not able to do due to societal constraints in the period of the 50’s and 60’s? Do you think there is any credence in this Bulanik?
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Teddy, Im sorry I didnt see the question, thanks Bulanik
John Coltrane is one of the most profound jazz artists of all time
He came to recognition playing with the Miles Davis Sextet, one of the greatest groups of all time , noted critics have said, but then he broke away and formed his own quarted with incredible musicians, like Elvin Jones and Mccoy Tyner and made very powerful music , If you ever want to buy one record of him, make it A Love Supreme
Mira, I absolutly apologise for being snobby about jazz , its a bias I am guilty of. I support anyone for liking what ever music you love. Lots of times there is bad jazz out there, or just not great. You never know, one day you may hear a great jazz artist that will move you.
I reccomend you try to listen to Eperanza Spalding
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Could you like this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mCKQzrlSyI&list=FL-pd9IT71oivlEcSw5o3m9A&index=1&feature=plpp_video
yes, seriously, the British invasion turned the whole American market on its ear, it changed it and rock forever
Interesting, Jimi Hendrix came in and was just one of the baddest. He has a rhythm and blues background , he played with the Isly Brothers before and his rock always seemed to have a little funk in it
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By the way, there are monster European jazz artists, and Japondese jazz artists and those places have always had wonderful jazz fests and work for jazz musicians.
Neils Orsted Peterson was one of the best anywhere
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oh, Mira, I just had an “aha” moment about white America privalege. You know that these white rock boys from England really got famous because of white American privalege. White boys and girl in America just couldnt make a black American artist their top favorite, and, especialy the white power media system wasnt going to push black artists. I mean heck, when James Brown would come on those shows like Hollywood a gogo, American bandstand, with his processed hair and dancing the slop ( a dance that became known as the James Brown dance) , he might as well have been an alian from another planet. I was their when the Beatles hit the states, then the Stones etc Everyone agrees that it was a media phenomenon that had been unparralleled. And once the Beatles had their explosion, the white American media and record companies went berserck and anything thta was white from Britain that had long hair and played a guitar, got the huge media welcome mat and big publicity, meanwhile, the most incredible rhythm and blues acts and soul acts were regulated to the chitlin circuit and never made the real money and success that the white rocking Brits had.
That definity falls under white American privalege…which I dont want to say that means its bad to like rock, its just how the real deal business went down like that in America…I was there when it happened
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lol, yes, I’m evil, evil!!!, when it comes to the Beatles. I see them as a group of people with so much potential who ultimately made only moderate songs, with the exceptions of certain gems. Their main value aren’t the songs (imo, people!, imo!) but the way they helped rock come into the spotlight.
I don’t ignore Brits or their contribution to rock music or their quality. Indeed, I like some of the bands a lot, namely Pink Floyd, The Who, the Stones, Sex Pistols and Queen (strange combination, huh?), and yes, they (along with other Brits) ARE very important for the development of rock music.
… but I still see it as an American genre and American cultural product.
And yes, this discussion about racism IS crucial for understanding the development of rock music (again, in my opinion, but hear me out). I do think Brits are important, but not as much for bringing their unique new elements (except in cases when they did, but it’s not what made rock exist). Their main significance is making rock heard and understood around the world, especially in America. Because Americans didn’t want to listen to black musicians and to develop from there. Well, some did – and that was the initial spark of rock. But from that spark, they didn’t do much because a “black” music in America simply couldn’t become popular with whites. But if a bunch of white kids form England do it… See my point? I mean, the early Stones were all about infusing blues elements and (white) people got crazy about it.
My point is: I don’t want to ignore British influence or the quality of their music (indeed, some of the best and greatest and my favourite rock bands are British). I just do believe in three things:
a) rock is, in essence, an American cultural product
b) racism, and not the need for foreign (British) influence is what led to British invasion
c) (initial) British contribution is more about bringing American music to Americans than it is about bringing the new crucial influences that otherwise wouldn’t exist
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@Mira
Some are not really priviliges, but rather American arrogance. Every privilige with assuming or seeing something a certain way in it is a sign of arrogance not of privilege.
Let me explain a bit further:
Arrogance: Expecting people in other countries to speak your language when you travel abroad.
Privilege: Being able to travel abroad and in most cases being able to speak your native tongue.
I’m Dutch, and the German are really arrogant when it comes to language. Tourist usually just start talking German to you even though you’re Dutch. But at work a German woman called me to ask for information about the company. She asked me if she could speak German to me, I said yes. That’s a privilege………….
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True, true, I guess it wasn’t worded the right way. But this arrogance comes from the privilege. This doesn’t mean all people with the privilege are like this, but privilege gives them an opportunity to be so. Like I said in one of my earlier posts, when you have a privilege – any form of it (be it American, white, male, etc.) – it’s only your good will if you choose to act against it. If you don’t want to think about it, you don’t have to. THAT is the main thing about privilege: you have a privilege not to think about it if you don’t want to, and you have a privilege to decide whether you want to follow it or to act as a good human being.
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Mira, what I will say now is no judgement on rock I just want to describe what I think some of the differances are and why.
Lets take Jimi Hendrix.He started playing heavy rhythm and blues with the Isley Brothers a great soul group. He has that background of playing to a black American audiance. I notice , from playing with a lot of rhythm and blues guitar players, that there is a center of the body they eminate from and there is a sensibility of groove.Hendrix has that. I played soul music with a lot of black American bands when I first started out, I played at lots of black clubs to people dancing a lot of differant dances. It was incredible, the soul and the deepness of the experiance is something you dont get at white parties, that is just a fact. Most, I wont say all , of the white Brits who play rock, never had that experiance. They never held down heavy scratch rhythm guitar parts to hook up with monster drum and bass grooves. Hendrix had that, and you can feel the differance. After a while , Brits did lock into funk, and you got guys like Jamiriqui. He is kind of looney with some of his twinkle two moves, he obviously never hung out at a black American dance party set to cop some of the real moves, but, his band was really good. Jamiraquai’s mother was a good singer so he picked up some tricks from her.
I love how those Brits sing in what for them is black American dialect and then on the inteveiw they say ” I say old chap..”, kind of interesting but without judgement. Please I dont mean what Im saying here as judgement , just observation
Ny the way, I consider my playing experiances in the black American clubs as a major America white privilege..in the sence that I was very privileged to be accepted in the black comunity and by great black musicians
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@B.R
I love how those Brits sing in what for them is black American dialect and then on the inteveiw they say ” I say old chap..”, kind of interesting but without judgement. Please I dont mean what Im saying here as judgement , just observation
LOL B.R
Just a small point but, of the British groups that we are talking about here, hardly any if at all spoke with the R.P (Received Pronounciation) way you are talking about here (i.e. Hugh Grant). The majority of these guys were from working class/rural/inner city backgrounds. Even in the 50’s and early 60’s, the class system prevailed and if you didnt speak like a ‘toff,’ you would certainly wouldnt be considered TV friendly, such was the stigma of regional accents. In fact, you would never hear a presenter with a regional accent on tv at this time – even if individuals came from this background, they took elocution lessons to rid them of sounding working class.
In the U.K, groups like this breaking through was refreshing in many ways, both musically and socially. It became accepted to speak with a scouse accent or like Tom Jones with a ‘valley’ accent aka Welsh, Reg aka the Troggs, talks like he is Cornish (though he was born in Hampshire).
It was and is still a common thing that you raise here that U.K artists often mimic American accents. This was particularly the case with early U.K Hip Hop artists but if we come up to date with the sounds of Dizzie Rascal then we hear the regional accent come straight at ya.
Maybe a common element that links these U.K artistes to PoC in the U.S at the time is that they both lacked a voice. Someone who reflected and knew what it was like to be who they were and understood where they were from and appreciate the lack of opportunities ahead of them.
… but I still see it as an American genre and American cultural product.
In the U.K Skiffle was the pre-cursor to all the bands that we have been discussing here. Again the influences are jazz, folk, blues and roots but , the way that it eventually became ‘fused’ together by people like Joe Brown and Lonnie Donegan, created an innovate and new slant on an existing sound.
That being said, there is no denying that the influence was probably that of the U.S but we cannot dismiss the fact that the interest from artistes outside the U.S encouraged a fantastic and diverse array of music to emerge as a result.
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B. R.
This is interesting, because I consider Hendrix to be on of the greatest rock musicians ever. In fact, he’s the one who showed us all how to play an electric guitar the way it should be played, as a separate instrument, not like an acoustic guitar that happens to be electric (if you know what I mean).
But does this mean rock is, essentially, a watered-down version (or a child) of other genres, such as rhythm and blues?
And what do you think about my three points observation about the British invasion and racism: agree or disagree?
PS- Why do you keep “apologizing” to me? (At least it sounds so). I don’t judge you negatively and I appreciate your contribution to these discussions. Nobody says commenters have to agree on everything. (Let alone on the style of music they prefer)
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Mira, I agree with you about those points , defintily, I think its close to what I said too . And, I absolutly do agree about the watered down part, I mean look at the ” front man ” dance ethic…Jagger compared to James Brown. I think the roots of the music we are talking about were forged in bars and nightclubs with people dancing to heavy funky grooves. Dances with origins and roots, for sure roots in African culture dances, passed down and filtered through the coutries they were brought to, mambo in Cuba, Samba in Brazil, The USA has a wonderful history of dance crazes that went world wide and they were all black American dances.Soul music and Funk are just extensions of a long rich history of black American culture.
Good observation about the skiffle. I actualy kind of dug Tom Jones when he hit, he is not rock, he did have a soulful voice and even had some pelvic contractions that werent displeasing…
Absolutly about what you are saying about the accent , i just couldnt imitate it in print…hahahaYou are spot on, and, dont you think its funny that these people like the Stones were probably dispised in some Engish circles were treated like gods in the USA…I even heard some young dude when I was young saying “Jagger is God”…I nealy fainted…
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By the way, the Brits have many caribean people there so , as you showed about the skiffle , there are roots to these grooves and beats. It just didnt seem to take over the soul of Engand, beleive me, black American music and dance is the soul of American culture.
I am apologising because I know that I can come off snobby about jazz compared to rock and I want to ackowledge that and let go of that atitude talking to you.
The truth is, rock has brought a lot to the table as far as spectacle, lyrics, equipment innovations , like huge sets of drums I cant carry to the gig anymore…Popularity, media devopement hypes which can be good or bad depending on how you look at it.
when I was starting out in the business and wanted to quit washing dishes while I was playing avant guarde jazz, I played some rock gigs, and got hired for some concerts by some very forgetable recorded artists. I do really not want to sound like Im criticising anyone for liking rock, as a musician, I really want to beleive that what ever a person likes or wants to play is as valid as anything else
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Bulanik, I dont think that Mira meant the Brit rockers didnt add anything to rock, many of them started to wipe out their American rock counterparts. Even I perked up at “Whole lot of Love”.
The American white rockers were the epitimy of the problem , because they didnt go the exta mile to see what their black American colleagues were doing. At least the Brits looked into serious blues roots that these white Americans never did.
But neither of them even understood the real roots Ive described above or really got into the depth of the grooves and dances the black American soul and funk was doing…
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@Mira
Collectively these questions make it seem that ‘music’ starts and stops in the U.S or that ‘other’ musicians and artistes can be dismissed as merely ‘bubble gum’ pop. IMO I don’t think this is a true reflection at all though credit to the many influential U.S musicians where its due…
a) rock is, in essence, an American cultural product
The emerging of rock music is as the result of an American cultural product however, the evolution of diverse genres of music is a worldwide collaborative with, IMO, many British Artists as the forerunners to this.
b) racism, and not the need for foreign (British) influence is what led to British invasion
Music is not something that is like an invention or a cure for some kind of disease so you are quite right when you say there was not a ‘need’ for foreign (British) music but racism? Not sure what you mean here? Are you saying that the White U.S were tired of their own music, would not promote black music so brought in ‘white’ people from somewhere else? Also, it seems that white Americans generally had an apathetic approach towards racism (though there was the beginnings of dissension amongst the ranks) so again I doubt whether they would have been interested in white British artists descending on U.S shores with their open appreciation of the black artists that we have agreed they were trying to imitate.
c) (initial) British contribution is more about bringing American music to Americans than it is about bringing the new crucial influences that otherwise wouldn’t exist
I think British music certainly took some elements from American music, musicians and artistes and I see why you might say that the initial British contributions were just re-hashed versions of American ones but this is only a minute part of a bigger and much wider picture. Music is effervescent – it does not, can not and must not stand still. What is important to note here is, particularly during this thriving time for many ‘real’ bands, one complimented the other. Without the British artistes trying to copy, recreate and improve on their U.S counterparts, there is a danger that music may have become stagnant and ‘samey’. The constant need to ‘innovate’ and achieve musical excellence is something that both cultures can boast of IMO.
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Demerera, please allow me to address your comments.
You see, to me, it seems that people can only look at the music world as though rock is the center…and everything else doesnt matter
I beleive jazz musicians were bringing in influences from all over the world long before rock. Dizzy Guilesspi brought in Cuban influences into jazz, Miles was using talbas the same time the Beatles discovered their Indian influence
Of course, for example, the Beatles took rock somewhere else with influences of their own..but, I just think they kind of missed the boat with their concept of rhythm, of course ” Come Together ” is kind of funky. But, it takes some heavy investment in looking into the real depth of the culture to cop the essences.Of course Eric Clapton can play the blues, but, he should have learned be bop, so should Stevie Wonder, for that matter, just to be better players
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And , remember, as musicians in America , any kind of formal study starts with having to examine the great European composers , we have to thouroghly learn about the European concept of harmony and melody. Especialy in my era , its changed because there are thousands of jazz schools around the world, if you wanted to learn about any black culture from anywhere , you were on your own. Im self taught, sure I went to one year of music school and left because the real education was on the streets and on the bandstand
Again, take the front man concept. Look at the rockers., What is Jagger doing ? Sticks his head out , puts his elbows behind his back and walks like a rooster ? I mean that is some blackface minstrel if yoiu ask me. Look at Jim Morrison’s mic tecnique, he drops to the floor coatose as though a ton of bricks fell on his head…what is that? I meran it is impressive but , darn, it aint James Brown, doing the slop the boogaloo, the amashed potatos, copping the spits, he hasto work hard for his money
How about those Chemical Brothers, now they dont hide their accent
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@B.R
You see, to me, it seems that people can only look at the music world as though rock is the center…and everything else doesnt matter
That is not what I am trying to convey here at all. I understand that Jazz and associated genres are your passion, your heart and appreciate that this is what you base your understanding and interpretation of all other kinds of music on. My comments are purely in response to a seeming disregard to the fact that ‘other’ genres of music played their part too.
Regardless of my own feelings All the different likes, dislikes etc are indicative too of the thrill passion and individual appreciation of music too, and shows just how influential this has become dontcha think?
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I mean that is the whole thing, do any of you talking about rock really listen to the groove ?
Do you understand the diferance from James Brown funk and the way he and his band integrated time ? By the way, all those old James Brown bands and the old Motown bands, espcialy the horns , considered themselves jazz musicians. They actualy innovated the way to look at time and groove.Where is that ethic in the Brits?
For me, a musician really playing funk and James Brown covers, playing at black clubs , hey, I partied and danced at black clubs, I do the James Brown slop ( I swear to god), how do you think I felt seeing these Brits with the same heavy handed rock grooves as the Americans?
Oh yeah, Demerera, let me answe your quetion about acceptance since I was there and saw itl. Yes, the young American girls were getting tired of white doo wop groups like Frankie Valee and the Four Seasons, or the group who did “Cherish”..for them, the fresh faced clean cut Beatles with new style clothes and haircuts just was what they wanted.Beleive me, the young teenage girls are the market, they are the demographic the record companies are looking for and by the way, they really do create this whole thing on the pop leval. they control who gets out, who gets the hype, who gets to win
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Bulanik, I apreciete what you said about Ginger Baker, and, he was a jazz musician, but it wasnt the ethic in the Brit rock like it was in the James Brown and Motown bands. Lots of the good Brit rockers were involved in jazz. And there are no absolutes, Im talking about general stuff. John Mclauglin, Dave Holland, are fantastic musicians.
I think a lot of Brit music starte incorporated a lot of great influences when it got out of rock
That is what I am saying, rock is a low bar. Sometimes great musicians get involved to make some money. Some are interesting, like the Beatles, but, guess what, James Brown has had a much bigger infuence on music now with the hip hop crowd now. Not too many people make Beatles tunes as curiculums to study music, not too many people except Beatles copy bands do Beatles tunes now as theri repoitour. As a matter of fact , their is a good chance that they , along with Bob Dylan and the other pop stars now, will be fortotten in 100 years the way Rudee Valee was the Beatles of his era, and nobody knows him now, he isnt important to the real culture compared to Louis Armstong
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@B.R
Beleive me, the young teenage girls are the market, they are the demographic the record companies are looking for and by the way, they really do create this whole thing on the pop leval.
I know and understand this only too well B.R, after all, I was that young teenage girl 🙂
I mean that is the whole thing, do any of you talking about rock really listen to the groove ?
I could be insulted at this but I take it that you are merely passionate as I am though our paths towards the appreciation of music differ. Yep, I hear it and recognise it in other genres of music too. This is just it B.R to really hear music you MUST open your mind and allow it to seep in. To REALLY feel music is something that is so deep in your core, in your soul. My guess is that one track evokes responses that are not the same in any one individual…
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Demerera, again , let me apologise if I sound snobby at all. And to you to , Bulanik . let me explain..
I think rock is a tremendous example of specticle, it is huge and great and arena compatible. Its big…
But , lets take this groove thing. I saw this go down, the invention of the drum machines. Do you know why ? Some monster dummers like Steve Gadd and Harvy Mason , both jazz drummers in the pop studio world, were so advanced and precise and killing that the procucers had to have that. You really have to understand that rock drummers including and expecialy the heroes, including Ginger Baker and Keith Moon, rushed their time, their fillins, it was sloppy for the studio. When the procucers starte hearing master drummers, they had to make machines to aproximate the great time and execution of these incredible drummers. Seriously, these rock guys are not in their league. These great drummers changed the way the groove is played in opp music.
Let me tell you why I say the bar is low. If you are playing nursury ryhmes, and I dont mean that is what rock is, you arnt going to get anything more in the long run than nursery rhymes. So rock is the same way, its its own idiom. Great . love it. listen to it. enjoy the specticle. But, you have to be honest about what it is and what it isnt. You can find lots of limitations in jazz too , lots of mediocrity, lots of pretension, but, it is an idiom based on playing ability. Rock is based on specticle, the big stars make the most money of anyone, theyhave more visual than jazz, but you cant have everything, and rock players are dealing with a low bar of playing ability, even if good players get involved with it.
i remember seeing a drum clinic with Elvin Jones and the drummer from Dream Machine, a rock group with complicated arrangements , dificult odd times (see my posts on Miles about those musicians were fleeing complication looking for simplicity to bring more pollyrhythms).The Dream Machine drummer had mics on every drum and cymbal and a lot of them, he was so loud it hurt my ears, it was tedious and heavy handed. Elvin gets on a four peice kit and just mesmerises the audience….there is a diffeance
Again, please dont misunderstand me, I dont want to seem like I am superior or dont respect what you like, I ask about the groove in earnest because there are quantifying differances
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Let me say a little more about this also, think for a moment what is the ethic of rock and how do the people, mostly white kids, arrive at it , and lets take America first.
Its mostly kids in the suburbs. Their parents buy the most expensive equipment on the market. They get together with other kids thier age , who have the same ability , and aproach music without even really checking out the treasure around them in the black American comunity.
They buy music of other people near their ability range because they dont want to really challenge themselves to something like jazz or Cuban music which is very near by and in country.The record companies decide to put out huge amounts of that because it is the yoiung girls choice and the young boys who want to play it. It only reaches a certain leval of ability because the companies like less ability , its easiar to replace it with another group with low abilities.
They generate lots of money and hype it like no other idiom. Poor working class kids see it in Britain, the hype is powerful, so , then, even good musicians like Eric Clapton who was a great blues player in the John Mayal band and Baker who is a jazz drummer ( make no mistake , Elvin Jones could hand him his head on a platter, haha they used to actuly do drum battles), by all concerns decent and good musicians, decide they have to find a niche in rock to make money. Led Zepalin too are good musicans , Jimmy Page was studio musician ad young talent, they go into rock and actualy raise the bar of rock, but its still rock, it cant break too far of what it is
Also, really, rock grooves are always behind in developemet compared to funk and soul.Like when disco came in, it took 10 years or so and soon all rock tried to aproximat the boom tack of funk and disco
Before that , it was looser and disjointed with wild fills and white noise, which some people prefer . But Im referring to an actual progresion in the idiom that you can quantivly observe….listen to Cream compared to Van Halen , the beat is differant
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I am glad Mira posted this. That is so true and I am kind of guilty of the part about thinking everyone on the internet is American because I am American and I use social networking. Anyways I usually think people I m talking to are from America but a lot of times they are from Europe. Ironic, huh? I don’t get that one and I wondered why I think that.
And I do know America is the not type of country that has street made of gold. America has a lot of problems and I think it might fall in the near future. To many taxes, corrupt politicians, bad economy etc. Yes, America wasn’t founded on anything good,honest or anything like that, America was stolen from Native Americans by the European settlers.They enslaved Blacks andmde Blacks wok in the fields. I can go on and on but I don’t.
Not trying to make this a race issue but I am trying to state my opinion.
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Bulanik, wow , what style of dance? My do you intrigue me, Bulanik.I worked very intensly in the dance world in New York, I love dance.I worked with Louis Falco and the dancers on the film Fame , the original. That was deep for me, Irene Cara, Neisha Folkes, Micheal De Lorenzo,I love the dance world
Bulanik, Im sorry , I really am, I just know that jazz was Ginger Baker’s passion. That is what Im trying to tell you, great Brit musicians would gravitate to rock because it was the music of the moment as far as work and the hype. It was the passion of the Stones drummer , Watts Charlie Watts.
I dont want to come off as a know it all at all, Im trying to share with you tidbits of history I have lived through….and yes, with my bias as a jazz drummer…so I admit…I really admit…my point of veiw is unfair.
I can only put my bias out there and maybe someone might say” hey, I kind of see what he is saying”
You are one formidable debator what can I say
By the way I have some comments in moderation with more of my opinin and what I saw in my time
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Bulanik, you are tenacious !! I think that would fall under the catagorie of tributes
Most of the jazz artists they mentioned did Beatles songs when they were really big, everybody did, they did define popularity…they were a phenominon…but really , in general in this world now, they just dont play their songs like they used to…guess what, they dont play Wayne Shorter either in a popular general sence, but they are studying him like heck in Jazz university progams. They have a Beatles school I think, devoted to their music but not a thousand school like they have in jazz.
To really understand the thing, since you googled your information, google up Rudee Valee
Guess who gets played more than either, Tom Jobim, but that is another subject al together
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The reason Americans think everyone on the internet is American is because most of the sites they visit are American domains full of Americans. Yet Mira visits American domains and wonders why people assume she’s American? If she visited sites from foreign domains most of the people would assume she’s from their country, too. This is the kind of irrational thinking that dominates most of her points.
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destructure,
Wrong. I visit many websites, and when I visit a website on a .us domain, I am ok with people expecting everybody to be American. But general domains (.com, .net, etc.) or social networks are open to people all around the world. I have a .net domain, after all, and I blog using the WordPress platform.
Why would anybody expect people on places such as Facebook, IMDb, Twitter, Tumblr, NaNoWriMo (to name just a few boards/places I frequent) to expect you to be American? Or a random forum for hamster owners?
Contrary to the popular belief, these places are not “owned” by the Americans, and most of the time, Americans are outnumbered by the number of people posting from other places. Yet, Americans will often assume a person on the Internet to be American, unless proven otherwise. Even if you use British spelling like I do (“colour”, “favourite”). It’s not that people assume you’re American; is that they act like you are, so they expect you to understand what they’re talking about when they reply to your comment (that had nothing to do with the US) with something like: “see, that’s the problem with this country (WHAT country? Dude, you’re posting on an international message board!), this is why people like Blahblah Blah Bla are bad (excuse me, who’s Blahblah Blah Bla is and why should I care?)
I mean, it’s not that I’m irritated by someone assuming I’m American nor do I take it as an insult. But I do think many Americans don’t understand which things are their local business (be it politics, cultural items, etc.) and which ones don’t require any further explanation. In a way, you can never know which American items are known to the others (an American friend of mine once explained to me who dog Toto was – which was unnecessary, because the Wizard of Oz was my favourite book when I was a kid). The problem is when you don’t even stop to think others on the Internet might not be from the same country as you are and therefore might not understand what you’re talking about when you complain about the price of diapers in the local Wall Mart (or however it’s called).
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Like that Santorum guy who’s constantly invading my inbox as the most important news of the day.
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Bulanik, I want to invite you to join me again on the Miles thread as I address this issue, unless Abagond can say that anything I say falls under the point of veiw of American privilege there for is in bounds here…your questions are worthy of plenty of attemts and responces
We were talking about rock, versus its roots and its developement. I already said jazz had looked all around the world for influences will before any of these idioms. the truth is, as it developed and faught all its evolutins from the traditionalists, it reached stages where most all idioms were involved in participating where ever they touched jazz. My freinds have been instrumental in those idoims being introduced into America and jazz and western culture google Adam Rudolph and Hamid Drake, they were talking Sufi and Indian to me back in the 70’s,they brought Sousa the great grio to the States, how about knawa from Moroco? I used to have and Allah Rakah record, in the late 60’sm now Zakir Husein, unbeleivible…
But Im looking South now for the most inspiration, with mother Africa as the guide, deep into Afro Brazilian dance and drumming, and, Jobim and his colleagues , which is one really really deep waters, you know, talking about being one humbled American
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So basically, your typical butthurt Euro with an inferiority complex who has admittedly acknowledged that they know little about America other than stereotypes and what they’ve “asked and read” from those with highly extreme views on race and American society ironically uses their European privilege to write a passive-aggressive semi anti-American tirade full of what limited knowledge most Europeans tend to have of America while the disgruntled who want to appear “worldly” and “enlightened” cosign to soothe the fragile ego of the Euro?
Not saying that you don’t have some semi-valid points, but the chip on your shoulder is off-putting, your smugness and condescension is repulsive, and your so-called “knowledge” about “American privilege” is lacking.
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Nope, not really. Most of these apply to all Western countries. Most of this is Western privilege.
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Well, Americans do seem to be overly defensive about these things. Not all Americans, of course, but there seems to be, and correct me if I’m wrong, there seems to be this sentiment that saying anything that’s not 100% positive (neutral doesn’t count) makes you unpatriotic. The first thing you can do for your country is to criticize it and to see it the way it is.
Not to mention Americans are quick to talk shit about other nations (especially non-Western ones), but God forbid some of us dare to say anything (not even against America itself, but the way it treats the rest of the world).
That being said, I can find many faults with this article. It was never perfect to begin with, but a few years and so many comments later (not just from this site), I think it’s in dire need of a revision.
Namely, I focused too much on stuff such as media and image, and less to those things that went without saying to me (military power, economy). Also, I didn’t differentiate between things I believe are true for USians only, common Western ones and stuff everybody does but it just affects the world more (and in more bad terms) when those in power do it.
Finally, I didn’t pay enough attention to the most controversial part of the article, the last paragraph, which is probably the most interesting to readers here and it also deserves its own post: the fact all USians, regardless of their race (and resulting discrimination inside the US), still have American privilege.
I’d love to do American privilege: revisited post, or Western privilege, or a post expanding the issues of race an American privilege. I don’t know if Abagond has time/place/wish to include something like that, though. I can always do it on my own website, but I’m really lazy at updating it these days so I need to reactivate it a bit. This is a subject that deserves discussion and many opinions to be heard so it’s not good to waste it, so to speak, on a blog nobody visits.
PS- I found this cute gif today:
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@ Mira
Any of those are fine – or even all three!
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@ Waveraham:
The thing about privilege is that those who lack it can see it way more clearly than those who possess it. For this post to be any good it had to be written by someone who is not American.
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Mira, Im off a computor , so I cant see your answer for a week or so, but, dont you think American hedgomy has drasticly declined in the world?
For sure, where I live, in Braszil and in South America in general, American influence has decayed dramaticly. America could never do to South America what they did in the cold war
The financial crisis, the wasted war in Iraq, the ascendancy of the BRIC countries , all mean its a very differant ball game right now out here in the world
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Abagond,
Thank you! Like I said, I’m interested, but it will have to wait a little because I have some work to do and I don’t want to write any of this in a hurry. Plus, I think I might not be the right person to write #3. I mean, I can write it, but I feel here are people in a better position to judge it. Ideally, it should be a non-white non-Westerner (probably).
B. R.
The forces may be changing. Undeniably, America won’t be the most powerful nation forever, and whoever takes this title will inevitably force its ideals, morals, products and views to the world. But economic crisis is not enough to overturn American power; not yet, at least. So in short, no, I didn’t notice much of a change.
The thing is, due to globalization, American culture has found its place everywhere. (Ok, not literally, but almost). It means American cultural products are part of everyone’s culture and are therefore normalized in people’s minds. Even in minds of those people who aren’t really fans of America. I see it in my country (which isn’t really fan of USA- or West, for that matter). Many people here dislike the West, but they still adopt Western (or what they think it’s Western) fashion, beauty standards, English expressions in everyday speech, etc. I mean, every single caffe or a night club (and there are 9157348957342895709 of them here) has to have a “catchy” (read: English-sounding) name. God forbid the names of stores are written in Cyrilic. That sort of things.
So whoever takes up the torch will need some time to force its language and culture to the rest of the world. I don’t see this happening overnight.
PS- That being said, I don’t think the idea of one powerful nation is all that good. Ideally, nobody should have that much power, but since it’s not possible, I think I prefer the idea of a world where there are at least 2-3 powerful nations. Though that’s bad for other reasons. So I don’t know.
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Thank you for writing this article, Mira. It really needed to be written, and I thought you were a really good person to write it. Your writing is free of the snide, passive-aggressive attitude that a lot of internet activists assume when they talk about privilege to people outside their circle. A lot of people use the term “privilege” as a weapon, but you don’t.
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Mira, I see what you are saying about using English words, that happens where I live in Brazil.
The thing about the media, if you really break it down, it isnt even American. About 6 corporations own the music industry and the movie industry
Sony is Japanese, Virgin is an English guy. Universal is a world wide corporation if Im not mistaken. They set up shop in America because its a major market , with entertainment industry with a lot of solid history of doing business, so, its natural their works often try miserably to show American life.
Its really a bunch of desicians of what to put out on the world made by a very small number of people , and it is seriously cut throat , competitive and back stabbing , and, just looking for the lowest based content that will bring in the most customers
For sure , America has military power. But, as I stated, in South America, the United States carries little hedgomy at this point. In a lot of countries, no one is jumping up and down for Americans, even if they love doing business with them
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Bulanik,
Thank you! It really means a lot. I love my website, and I hate myself for not updating often. I keep promising myself I’ll update often, but I never keep my promise. Perhaps I should establish a blogging schedule or something.
maruja de lujo,
Thanks. Like I said, I see so many faults in this article, but yes, it needs to be written. It surprises me American/Western privilege is rarely, if ever, mentioned in the social movements debates. I guess it’s because most authors and activists are Westerners (or at least educated on the West), even if they are POC themselves (nothing wrong about that, but I don’t think a Westerner, regardless of race, can speak for non-Westerners. )
I just don’t understand what you mean by: “free of the snide, passive-aggressive attitude that a lot of internet activists assume when they talk about privilege to people outside their circle”. ?
B. R.
I hear you about the fact many companies and media aren’t American. But the effect is the same, since most try to appeal to the US audiences, and it’s easiest for things to spread from the US to the rest of the world than from any other source.
As for military power, I understand USA doesn’t have universal power everywhere, but I think it’s safe to say recent military campaigns prove USA’s military power (and I don’t even mean on the power of guns; I mean on the power to actively start wars and invade countries all over the world as it sees fit).
One thing I keep emphasizing, though, is that I don’t see this – any of this – as some sort of ideology battle or “who’s bad and who’s good”. The discussion about privilege is not about someone’s character or being a good or a bad person. (This goes for any kind of privilege). I don’t think Americans (or Westerners) are “bad” because they have privilege. It’s not like they asked for it anyway. So no, this article was not to show how evil or bad or corrupted Americans/Westerners are or how “pure” the rest of us are. I just think people should be aware of their privilege and the way this system – and privilege is always backed up by a system – harms others who don’t posses it (and you can’t have privilege without harming those who don’t have it).
I just thought there was not enough talk about the American/Western privilege in these sorts of debates, and if there is, I’d like to see it and engage in it.
Obviously, like with any other form of privilege, we are quicker to see those we don’t have, and since I don’t have the Western/American one, I am very aware of it, more than my own privilege. I don’t blame Westerners for feeling the same (your own privilege is always hardest to see), but I do think unlearning your privilege is something that needs to be done. Or at least you need to be informed about it.
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Sorry, Mira, I read your last comment wrongly and then I used the wrong quote marks in my comment, so the quotes disappeared and it doesn’t make much sense. Here’s the fixed up version.
“I just don’t understand what you mean by: “free of the snide, passive-aggressive attitude that a lot of internet activists assume when they talk about privilege to people outside their circle”. ?”
The snide, passive-aggressive attitude I refer to is pretty easy to find if you spend too much time on feminist and/or anti-racist blogs. Sometimes it’s indicated by the phrase “Your privilege is showing”. Another example is Womanist Musings, where the blog owner and her fans accuse those who disagree with her of “shitting,” “reeking” and “dripping” privilege. I can’t find the individual comments on all the different websites now (or rather, I don’t want to spend the whole afternoon finding them), but it’s evident that some people really do want others to feel shame and guilt for their privilege.
“I do think unlearning your privilege is something that needs to be done. Or at least you need to be informed about it.”
It’s easier for a person to accept that some of their advantages are an accident of birth if they’re not attacked for it, if the term “privilege” isn’t used as a cheap shot. That’s why I appreciate your writing. If only it got the same amount of attention as John Scalzi’s hideously condescending attempt to “explain to straight white men how life works for them” at Kotaku a couple of months ago.
Of course, it’s human nature to want to take credit for one’s own good fortune, so people will still get upset, as some have on this thread, if you try to get them to examine their privilege. Melissa at Shakesville calls it wilful ignorance. Often that wilful ignorance is conflated with the unearned advantages themselves, which is one reason the discussion often goes so awry.
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“How do you think the idea of “American Exceptionalism” has shaped American Privilege?”
I think “American Exceptionalism” is both a euphemism for a belief in US moral and intellectual superiority and a very elaborate justification for endless belligerence towards the rest of the world. I suspect that many US Americans are more used to other, blunter, terms for US superiority, such as “bringing democracy”, “preserving the American way of life” or plain old “USA! USA!”.
This is how I think it has shaped (US) American privilege:
US Americans are trained from an early age to accept that the US is not only superior; it’s the only place that matters; it’s the only place that truly exists for them. I’ve come across the same provincialism in other people, in other places, but those places aren’t as big and powerful as the US, so people usually have to come to terms with the fact that there are places in the universe other than their town, and those places have some influence on their lives. If you are a US American you never really have to do that, because the US is so powerful, politically and culturally.
This works out very badly for a lot of US Americans, because they don’t look at the alternatives. They accept the need to go to war on other countries (and get traumatised, maimed or killed in the process), to pay insane amounts of their income for health care, to take on huge debts in order to attend university, and to receive less paid holiday time than any other wealthy country. They don’t ask why they are the only wealthy country that treats its citizens this way, because other countries are hardly even real for them; they’re more like a shabbier, less attractive Disneyland.
I’ve phrased the above in grand generalisations, and I’ve used one paragraph to try to describe a very large, complex phenomenon. Of course there are millions of US Americans who don’t have this mindset, and there are millions more who live well, who never have to go to war, and whose employers provide perfectly adequate health insurance. But as far as generalisations can be true, I think that this one is true for millions of US Americans.
P.S. Thanks for the link. It was interesting to read about how the term changed its meaning in the eighties, the way “cheese-eating surrender monkeys” did in the 00’s.
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Judging by the last four paragraphs, it sounds as if you have much worse luck with individual people from the US than I have. That sounds very tiresome indeed. My experience with the phenomenon you mention — that the narrative of the world had to be an American one — has been with polite, mild-mannered US Americans who just seem to have been brainwashed.
For example, in Vietnam in 2002 I met a very nice man from Hawaii who spoke Vietnamese and had a university degree related to Vietnam and the rest of South-East Asia. He lent me a copy of “The Ugly American”, by Eugene Burdick and William Lederer, saying he’d found it really interesting. Apparently the book caused a great stir in its time because it criticised US methods of espionage and diplomacy in South-East Asia.
When I gave it back I said I’d been frustrated by the book’s assumption that it was necessary for the US to control South-East Asia and choose its governments. He looked blank and surprised, and said nothing. I got the impression that no such thought had occurred to him before, though he’d studied South-East Asia at university level.
I might have been wrong about the reason for his silence and his surprised look, but it’s only one example of the remarkable innocence that characterises the US individual’s outlook. Here’s another example, from today’s Guardian newspaper, from a UK arabist sent to Iraq in 2003.
It’s hard to believe that anyone needed this explained to them, but apparently there were people in the US military who did.
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Oh, of course, the planes crashing into the World Trade Center. There’s no better example of US self-absorption or exceptionalism than the US reaction to that. I don’t envy you, trying to talk about it with the sort of person who believes that it was somehow sacred and world-changing. It’s brave of Mira to bring it up on a US site.
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I really dont want to get into a dicusion about this, I only want to say I disagree about the ascesment of 9/11 here…I dont know any country in the world who wouldnt go over board if 3000 people were killed on their soil in one attack
To top that off, you got people trying to say a missle went into the Pentagon , arguing their conspiricy theories when very real people died on that flight and real families suffered loss….or do you think they have these people stashed away somewhere? If anythng , there are plenty of people who just engage in diminishing the reality
I was off this blog when the last discusion about 9/11 went down, or I would have commented there also. I dont really want to get into a knockdown dragged out argument about this, so, I just want to say I disagree
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B.R.,
It’s not problematic that Americans got upset about 9/11. I have a problem when they wanted to make this an International tragedy all other (Western) countries should see as their own, as an attack on them.
Also, many other countries had had experienced war in their own territory, with much greater loss of lives, which Americans have no idea what is like.
Not to mention that Americans, unlike many other nations, can’t get back to their enemies the way Americans can, and it’s not like US stood helpless at the loss of 3000 people, and it’s not like they didn’t rushed back to kill civilians in the Middle East for it.
It’s about the US being so sheltered that an event such as losing 3000 people is something that happens very rarely, while for so many other countries around the world, that’s a reality that happens every few decades or so. Not to mention it’s often “helped” by the American military forces.
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“It’s about the US being so sheltered that an event such as losing 3000 people is something that happens very rarely, while for so many other countries around the world, that’s a reality that happens every few decades or so. Not to mention it’s often “helped” by the American military forces.”
Thank you, Mira! When someone speaks up and tries to bring some perspective to this matter, as you are so politely and calmly doing, I have to applaud. Your patience in the face of such disingenuousness — “I dont know any country in the world who wouldnt go over board…” — is really admirable.
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Great summary, Bulanik. Rather heart-breaking poem.
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[…] American – Non-American (American exceptionalism/American privilege) […]
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[…] American – Non-American (American exceptionalism/American privilege) […]
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I agree.
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[…] This is a guest post by commenter Mira from Serbia. She does not hate the USA, especially not its people, but she does think it is unfair for any one culture to have most of the power and use it on… […]
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Mira,
Interesting comments. I thought I would add my own observation:
…Serbia sucks.
Jill
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As an American living as an immigrant in a country that has a cold war background, I can assure you I have no American priviledge
In fact , I deal with insults , humiliations , being stigmatised , my accent made fun of , and attemted exclusions of me doing my business that I didnt want to beleive at first but in the long run the ugly truth became too blatent to not acknowledge
People just traveling around as Americans get some ilusion they are accepted well because people want their money , but stay a long time and see the truth
My American passport is no gateway to doors opening for me living a long time as an immigrant
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Im not blind at all, Kiwi, as I said,if you are passing through, people love to get your money…
And, I did quantify that the country I am living in, has some people with anti American sentiments, and a cold war past that tends to brainwash a lot of people
Actualy living in a country is differant than passing through…and, I am not saying every country would be the same for an American
how can I be blind to insults from passing vehicles, humiliations that the public situation prevented me from responding accordingly, being excluded in my business by the promoters when Im actualy hired again by the musicians who want my expertice that they acknowledge I have and want ? Watching my son go through a public education that had professors obviously biased against America….
My American passport is bringing me no benifits where I am living now…of course, I tolerate anti Americanism to be enriched in my life in other ways…that I wouldnt trade …you know, you live in Manhattan 8 years and it prepares you to live with people hating each other..
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@ Kiwi
A lesser degree, yes.
What you say about France is generally, true. But did the white French treat you the same AFTER they found out what your nationality was?
Sometimes there is a shift when one’s nationality is disclosed and “adjustments” are made! lol.
The French don’t treat their own black and brown people — the people from their former African territories — well. Being North African or West African (Muslims) is synonymous with bad treatment, whereas I’ve not heard of this for Asian French.
The image in France is that Vietnamese, Indian (especially Réunionnais) Cambodian, etc., are “better integrated” into French society.
That might be true of the Cambodians and Vietnamese, rather than say the Chinese population, but I’ve seen some pretty off-key stuff from the French in this respect.
My own experience is that being another European national, and non-white, counted for nothing compared to another non-white American in France, but I’d feel physicall upset at the way Algerians or Senegalese were spoken of and treated. It’s like different sections inside a pyramid of privileges, with white folks, whether European or American (or Canadian) on top.
Seeing this did put me in mind of something James Baldwin wrote about.
As a black American in the US he wasn’t fully American, and never treated as full human being. In Paris, as an American, though initially penniless, he had different and better experiences for mere fact of his nationality.
His experiences were probably better than any African from France’s former colonies. The white French considered Jimmy more “evolved” because he was an American than any African immigrant. I think this was something he wrote about it “Notes of a Native Son”, but I can’t be sure now.
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Kiwi , yes , I can understand that your experiance in France is differant from mine , and that American privilege does exist in other places….I only wanted to state , when I commited to living in Brazil , my American privilege evaporated and didnt really help me in that country…but , these anti American insults arnt a daily experiance , just the underlying political implications that flow in those diologues in the media are frought with anti American brain wash…and the exclusion in my business is palpatable. I dont deny American privilege exists.
along with white privilege , that I know I have in America and Brazil
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@Kiwi
“@ Bulanik
But did the white French treat you the same AFTER they found out what your nationality was?
After learning that I was American, most French accepted that fact, but too often, I learned that nearly all of them were acutely aware of the fact that I was Asian.”
Interesting, very interesting indeed!
It is like they could not decide precisely if you were “American” or “Asian”, or if they could see “Americaness” in you, but … not totally.
This passage remembered me another one from another American of color, James Baldwin.
In his short essay “Stranger in the village”, (https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/gjay/www/Whiteness/stranger.htm),
where Baldwin recounts a stay in a village in Switzerland, he wrote that at some point in time there, “Everyone in the village knows my name, though they scarcely ever use it, knows that I come from America though, this, apparently, they will never really believe: black men come from Africa”
I think White people often see America as basically a work of the descendants of the European there. People from other races could have contributed something but in essence America, “as we know it”, is the work of the White man.
Kiwi, for me the most interesting part is to see that you noticed directly (personally) something that puzzled another person of color a couple of generations ago!
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@ Kiwi
“Whites in Africa are more racist against blacks than they are towards Asians, although whites still look down on both nonwhite groups.”
Which Whites?
The Arabs and/or Berbers in the northern part of the continent or…
… the Whites in Southern Africa (mainly in South Africa)?
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@ munu aka Bantu
You said to Kiwi: “This passage remembered me another one from another American of color, James Baldwin.
In his short essay “Stranger in the village”, (https://pantherfile.uwm.edu/gjay/www/Whiteness/stranger.htm),
where Baldwin recounts a stay in a village in Switzerland…”
Funny: I said a similar thing to Kiwi earlier:
From what Kiwi says, not a great deal has changed.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/09/16/american-privilege/#comment-237408
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Yes to all of this! Another thing I’d add is “Having easy access to educational resources and statistics that apply to your country.” It may seem trivial, but I’m Canadian and most textbooks I have had to use in university are American to the core. The professors either chose to use them or couldn’t find decent Canadian ones. In an Adult Development class I took, we had to learn about all the things that happened to a typical American adult at different stages of life, and while many of them were familiar to me, others left me completely baffled. For example, we learned that the typical American way of getting married is to do it without living with the person first. That is NOT typical here, at least not in my region. But we had to learn it anyway, because Americans are prototypical humans and everyone else is just some aberration, right?
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^ That is a good point.If you are educated in English, it is difficult to avoid US textbooks.
At least Canada is somewhat more similar to the USA. Imagine university students in Singapore, Philippines, Hong Kong, Guyana, etc. Even ones in Guam and Hawaii (part of the USA) may have difficulty relating.
The latter might overlap with “white privilege” too. It is difficult to learn anything, esp. social sciences, eg, psychology, sociology, history, etc. that is not from a white point of view.
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[…] American Privilege […]
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After all the recent headlines and discussion in all the English-language newspapers about the two US Americans killed by IS, I finally learned, via Facebook, of journalist Bassam Raies’ execution by IS two weeks ago. He is Syrian. Mira, you are so right!
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[…] American Privilege […]
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How ignorant of you to claim this about all Americans. These are not all privileges; some of them are opinions. It is true that I do not know what it is like to have a civil war in my country, but I do not expect the world to speak English, adopt the American way of life, know everything about my culture, or celebrate the USA. Only the fools believe 100% of what they hear on television about other nations. Only fools go to a nation with its own heritage, culture, language, etc. and expect the citizens to speak English and know American pop culture.
You are an insulting individual. I hope your eyes are opened at how close-minded and hurtful you sound.
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[…] American Privilege (it was written 4 years ago, but I still hear people say things like this every day) […]
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[…] American Privilege […]
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Mira sez” “Still, I must say those who criticized the most are American POC… and those who agreed the most are Western European whites (who share many of the privileges listed here, so I don’t get it).”
Seriously?! You can’t figure out why that’s the case. The reason why Western European whites were the most inclined to agree were not because they actually cared about social justice, but so that they can absolve themselves of their own white privilege by using their “at least I’m not a filthy USian” status. USian POCs, on the other hand, were likely very disgusted with the suggestion that non-USian white people somehow suffer more than they do – when, in fact, many non-USian POCs probably suffer a bit less than they do (however marginally so).
No where can “American privilege” be debunked as a fallacy more so than in a discussion of USian blues versus British blues. You see, the USian blues scene was comprised predominantly of black people – whereas the British blues scene was comprised predominantly of white people. Now, if one wishes to be a good anti-USian social activist, which scene would they side with? British blues – because, even though they were comprised predominantly of white people, at least they weren’t “filthy USians”? Or USian blues – because, even though they were “filthy USians”, a good anti-USian social activist can’t run the possible risk of being mistaken for a white supremacist or something like that.
Seriously, trying to argue that marginalized USians still benefit from “American privilege” somehow is a lot like trying to argue that starved and abused children of rich families somehow still benefit from belonging to a rich family.
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[…] is profitable. It’s profitable in thousands of observable, well-documented ways. It’s profitable in the long run, in the medium […]
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Being allowed to be ignorant about others countries while claiming the voice of authority.
Rewriting historical movements to start when the US participated eg The Suffragettes began in New Zealand in the 19th Century, not America in the 20th century
Writing articles and blogs from a solely American perspective without acknowledging it while expecting all non-American perspectives to state clearly who they represent. Eg. Stating WOC didn’t get the vote when white women did. The first country in the world to give women the vote gave it to all women. As did, the second. Aotearoa / New Zealand and Australia.
Believing American issues are universal.
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Plus-
The privilege to be so sheltered to not even know that the US government did nuclear fallout testing on a population in the South Pacific three generations running that resulted in the complete genocide of The Marshalese. And while the very last was dying, not a murmer of an apology or even a statement of responsibility. Nope, they just use the site of devastation now as a dumping ground for US waste.
http://eve.enviroweb.org/perspectives/issues/nuclear.html
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[…] being required to know Spanish at all. The American Privilege list goes on. The author of this blog about American Privilege listed some more […]
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I’m sorry, I know the commenter who wrote the following will never see my reply, but I have to correct this.
helloanonme wrote
“Rewriting historical movements to start when the US participated eg The Suffragettes began in New Zealand in the 19th Century, not America in the 20th century”
The first organized movement for women’s rights began in the USA in 1848. Suffrage was one of the main demands of the movement from the very first day.
The first organizations in the USA to be devoted solely to the cause of women’s suffrage were founded in 1869.
The suffragettes began in Great Britain, not in New Zealand. In the USA, they preferred to be called suffragists.
New Zealand was indeed the first country to give women the right to vote in 1893, by which time two US states had already granted women full suffrage and several others allowed women to vote in certain elections. By 1893, women in the USA had been agitating for suffrage for 45 years.
The Nineteenth Amendment did give women of color the right to vote. This right was often denied in practice, but the amendment itself did not place any restriction on race.
And according to Archives New Zealand, although Maori women were allowed to vote as of 1893, the electoral system in which they did so was segregated (and administered differently) by race:
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[…] American privilege […]
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I have really enjoyed reading your blog posts. Any way I’ll be subscribing to your feed and I hope you post again soon.
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