The following is based on John McWhorter’s chapter on the n-word in his book “Authentically Black” (2003). The chapter seems to be from a book review of Randall Kennedy’s “Nigger: The Strange Career of a Troublesome Word” (2003).
John McWhorter, as a professor of linguistics who is also black, is often asked about the n-word. He says trying to stop white people from using the word will not only backfire but it misses the point:
- A word does not die out from people being told not to use it. That only drives it underground and makes it more powerful. Your best hope is for the meaning of the word to change over time. So in that regard hip hop has the right idea.
- Black use destroys the moral case against the word. So long as blacks use the word, whites will feel they can use it too.
- The point that is being missed: the word only has power because of black self-hatred. That is the true issue at stake – and getting rid of the word will not change that.
With that in mind it makes a huge difference who uses the word on whom, when and how. Some examples:
- Friendly same-race use: When whites or Asians use it among themselves in a friendly way it is harmless. Likewise with blacks, pretty much, but for them the self-hatred of the word can never be cleanly separated – it is still there to some degree no matter how they use it.
- Bad white-on-white use: It can be used in a bad way among whites. For example, when Senator Robert Byrd said, “I’ve seen a lot of white niggers in my time,” that was racist because it assumes blacks are worse than whites.
- White-on-black use: Some whites can use it in a good way, but even when they use it in a bad way, the circumstances matter greatly. For example, some loser on the street using it on you is way different than, say, if your teacher or commanding officer does. But McWhorter notices that it is the very people who have the power to back up their racism who use it the least. Barking dogs seldom bite.
Most whites he knows would never dream of using the word, at least not in his presence. Only one white person has ever used the word on him: a neighbour said it under his breath after losing an argument. To McWhorter it was “a defensive yelp of last resort”. It has never been used against him as a mean-spirited racist slur.
McWhorter has little patience for those left-wing black thinkers who say no one should use the word, never ever. He paints them with words and phrases like:
screechy
screaming foul
tripwire sensitivity
theatrics of playing the underdog
a glib histrionics
miss context in favor of the easy emotional score
still-fragile egos
This is how a professor writing a magazine article says the word “hypersensitive”.
See also:
- Ankhesen Mie: The People Formerly Known as Niggers
- Dr Laura and the n-word
- A Lesson Before Dying
- internalized racism
- “Sticks and stones my break my bones, but names will never hurt me”
- American magazine writing
- More McWhorter opinion:
- Racism in America is over – where he uses the black president argument
- Racism in America is over – where he uses the black president argument
I am perfectly fine with its usage in art, explaining a historical point, and I don’t care if whites say it – they just better be prepared for the consequences. I hate the n-word euphemism. It’s nigger or nigga if you prefer. It’s one of many words that are meant to be offensive to blacks. If its use went away tomorrow there are a million such terms to take its place. Sticks and stones.
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But McWhorter notices that it is the very people who have the power to back up their racism who use it the least.
at least not out in public. If you have any type of status, saying that word aloud can ruin your life. Only two things are ranked lower than a racist, they’re:
1. child molesters
2. woman beaters.
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This is interesting. Like I said before, the whole idea being language privilege is new to me since it doesn’t really exist in my culture. There’s no such thing as not being allowed to say a word, or who can use a word that is actually a slur. It is taken for granted that the same word means offense if your enemies say it, and that it’s neutral or positive if your group says it and that’s all.
So I never got the taboo of pronouncing the n-word in America; I never truly thought not saying a word per se changes anything. Context is incredibly important, for example, and people rarely talk about it.
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Well, I never used it or use it, but not because I’m sissy intellectual. I just knew that my black friends, who used the word, would see it differently coming from the white person. It is in the last analysis a racist slur, a decratory slang version of the academically correct (in the old days correct that is) word Negro. Using the N word a white speaker could/can inform his/her listeners with a one word that he did/does not mean it to be used in any positive way and that he/she referred to the blacks in degratory manner. Thats why it is more problematic if and when whites use it.
It might be that when blacks use the N word it eventually becomes powerless and mundane. Similar evolution has happened to the word Jew. Correct word would be jewish, but very often you hear Jew instead. Even some of my american jewish friends use that word in their everyday talk. So today the word jew does not automatically mean anything negative, unless you pronounce it some particular way that highten it, that gives it more weight. The same could happen to the N word.
However, I just can’t see why any white guy should use it. It has such a load of history on it. Unless, that is, he is plain dumb or racist and dumb. I mean, there are other words like black. It has also had its negative connotations but has lost them trough the time. I can use it conversations like these, but when I’m talking about my friends, I usually do not mention their skin color. Usually if somebody asks Who was this guy, I just say: he’s the american, or brittish etc. Not that he’s the black guy.
I don’t know what will happen, maybe the N word just slips out of use eventually. Maybe it becomes just one of those more or less meaningless words that use to mean something but are now powerless and almost useless. Maybe it remains in use. We will see. But I would not recommed the use of the N word for a white person. Not today. To use it in a “black way”, like the rappers do, is very corny for a white guy.
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Interesting, growing up the word ‘Mexican’ was, and is still, used in a degrading tone to assume superiority; my mother was eager to start using the more banal ‘hispanic’ when it became popular, for obvious reasons. Then I took my first trip to Mexico City, and never stopped myself from saying Mexican again, proudly, whenever the situation called for it. But I still bridle hearing it said saturated with negative meanings. As if it were a synonym for ugly or lazy or stupid. J. McWhorter’s warnings about ‘self-hate’ goes straight to my center. It returns the broader issues to the very personal. Thank you for sharing this, as always, your posts challenge me to rise higher.
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This is one article I definitely agree with. Stop handing so much power over to anyone who uses the darn word and let it go. To me the word nigger can go the way of the epithets “spick, guido, goomba, jew, etc”. But it can only go that way if we help it on its way (you can’t do that if you scream every time it IS used without getting the whole context) and that is a process that is so slow and I am at heart an impatient person… grr.
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Well, McWhorter proves here that even highly educated people can be ignorant.
>>Friendly same-race use: When whites or Asians use it among themselves in a friendly way it is harmless. <>White-on-black use: Some whites can use it in a good way, but even when they use it in a bad way, the circumstances matter greatly. For example, some loser on the street using it on you is way different than, say, if your teacher or commanding officer does.<<
This is just plain horse manure. There is no "good way" for a white person to use a slur when he knows it's commonly taken as a slur.
When I was graduated from high school in the early 70s, I won a scholarship from some local all-white males social that I can't even recall anymore–maybe it was the Elks Lodge. The elderly white man who awarded it to me on the stage remarked, "This is the first time this scholarship has been awarded to a colored boy." That drew a gasp from the audience, but I gave the old guy a pass…I figure he was stuck in time, and "colored" was the "nice" term back in his day.
Not true of the n-word. They KNOW what it is.
And it's irrelevant whether the person using it has any social power to levy behind it. The intent is the same–the little dog is still imagining himself tearing your throat out. That loser on the street is the one who will get drunk with his friends and talk them into finding some innocent black man to take out his anger on.
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>>Similar evolution has happened to the word Jew. Correct word would be jewish, but very often you hear Jew instead. Even some of my american jewish friends use that word in their everyday talk.<<
Actually, the correct word IS "Jew." "Jewish" refers to the culture, "Judaism" refers to the religion, "Jew" refers to a person. If the person is described as "Jewish," that means he has some characteristics of the culture…like being "humanoid" only means that the entity has some characteristics of being human.
An orthodox rabbi explained it to me, also saying, "A Jew is always a Jew. He is chosen by God to be a Jew and can't make himself 'unchosen.' He can be a good Jew or a bad Jew, but he has no choice about being a Jew."
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I thought the word had power due to skewed power dynamics rather than black self-hatred? Seems like other epithets, e.g., mick, guido, etc. lost their sting as the social status of those groups rose along with their economic and political power. Of course, white skin + European ancestry allowed for their eventual, full inclusion into the “mainstream,” and consequent shielding from the grim realities for blacks that you’ve shared on your blog: false arrests, higher criminal conviction rates, lower employment opportunities, redlining, etc. Given those realities, does “nigger” sting because the target of the epithet hates him/herself? Or does it sting because it’s a reminder of the inferior status black people in the U.S. have, regardless of individual achievement or self-love? If those inequities disappear, maybe the power of the epithet would too.
On the one hand, he says that for blacks can never completely separate themselves from the self-hatred of the word. On the other hand, he ridicules black left-wingers who don’t think the word should be used at all.
I saw an interview between Dave Chappelle and Maya Angelou in which she took him to task for using the word. She didn’t think anyone should use it. Wonder if McWhorter thinks Dr. Angelou is screetchy or hypersensitive?
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@RDKirk
“It might be that when blacks use the N word it eventually becomes powerless and mundane. Similar evolution has happened to the word Jew. Correct word would be jewish, but very often you hear Jew instead. Even some of my american jewish friends use that word in their everyday talk. So today the word jew does not automatically mean anything negative, unless you pronounce it some particular way that highten it, that gives it more weight. The same could happen to the N word.. ”
I think you are missing what he is saying with this one. It has nothing to do so much with the correct grammatical use of the words Jew or Jewish and everything to do with not letting the word control them so much anymore.
Sorry, your rabbi is wrong: a Jew can have a choice about being a Jew. Ask those who kept their life by denying being Jewish. It’s not like being black where skin, hair and facial features can mark you. Sure, there are facial features that are stereotypically Jewish, but surgery can change that. Just being technical and nitpicking when I say this, but that is what you were doing in your second posting also.
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And I wish I could edit these postings. I used ‘Marcy’ instead of ‘Marci’. Mea culpa.
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“Black use destroys the moral case against the word. So long as blacks use the word, whites will feel they can use it too.”
Spot-on. It’s hard to explain to the average non-black person why a group of young black men might say “nigga” 50 times in a conversation, but when that non-black person joins in and uses it, it is suddenly morally abhorrent.
I actually thought Dr Laura Schlessinger’s use of the word was, in isolation, not so bad. It was the other stupid racist bullsh*t that was part of her diatribe that was more offensive. I think if she repeatedly said “nigger” in the midst of having an open-minded discussion about the appropriate use of that word, it wouldn’t necessarily have been bad. She was articulating, admittedly in a pretty f***ed up way, the confusion felt by a great many non-blacks.
“miss context in favor of the easy emotional score”
That’s good stuff also. I’m very much in favour of understanding context before throwing accusations around.
Even if it’s always wrong for a white person to use the word, it’s important to distinguish between what is perhaps inappropriate or ignorant but not evil-intentioned, and something that is straight-up hateful. I fear sometimes we lump too many people into the same category.
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I admit that I’m not innocent on that end. My oldest brother and myself were often mistaken for maghrébins / North Africans. Considered by some in France as the probably lowest human life form.
Our uncle had a house in a small town near Perpignan where we as teenagers would go on holidays and sometimes nick fruits from other people’s trees. One time some old geezer came rushing out of his house with a broomstick shouting “sales bougnoules” (slur for Arabs/maghrébin). At first we were intimidated but later had a good laugh about that old fool. From that day on we sometimes called each other “bougnoule” although we aren’t maghrébin. My mother hated it but my father took it with his British sense of humour knowing that we were just making fun of those old ignorant fools using slurs on people – and not even getting it right…
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McWhorter forgets the entomology of the word as if “nigger” was an epithet. For many it was a description. The word was not use in the heat of anger, when some Black stepping out of their place or being an affront to white privilege, Black people were called that as their name. It was common usage, not just in low life society, but in polite company. It was like a salutation and description; our niggers, that uppity nigger or see them niggers doing such and such. Nigger, whats you name or what are you doing?
MrWhorter may have only been called a nigger once, but people his parents age were called that in everyday situations.
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@ hathor.
“Black people were called that as their name. It was common usage, not just in low life society, but in polite company.”
Right, I think a lot of white people forget that. Statements like… “well if they say it, why can’t we” or “how how can they expect us to respect them when they don’t respect themselves” conveniently gloss over the history of the word.
Use of the word by a white person brings all of that history right back in the mind of the person on the receiving end.
Any white person willing to empathize with that should come to understand why they shouldn’t say it.
(btw it’s etymology)
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JasOnburns,
Blame it on Firefox spell check 🙂
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Black use destroys the moral case against the word. So long as blacks use the word, whites will feel they can use it too.
What I always wonder about this point is whether White people (or just non-Black people in general) actually know someone Black who uses the word, or if it’s the whole “generalizing one Black person on the street to every Black person on Earth”. Generally, people take cues about appropriate vs. inappropriate language from those around them–I know when I was younger I was shocked at people who cursed at their parents because that wouldn’t fly in my house. But for some reason I doubt that the average White person who wonders why s/he can’t use the word has a social circle of people who always use it.
I think Poetess (the first commenter) said it best. People can say whatever they want, just be prepared to get your a*s kicked (or buy some new running shoes). The same rule applies to most “controversial” words, in practice.
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Jasmin, I think that’s an excellent point.
I hate this argument, because I think white people are smart enough to understand why they can’t use it. They just don’t WANT to…
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@ Jasmin:
What I always wonder about this point is whether White people (or just non-Black people in general) actually know someone Black who uses the word, or if it’s the whole “generalizing one Black person on the street to every Black person on Earth”.
It’s not about actually knowing someone Black who uses the word. It’s more about popular culture. I have hardly ever met any African Americans in person (and there’s only one that I know somewhat well), but I’ve heard the n-word thousands upon thousands of times out of Black mouths. From rap music, from movies and TV – these are the exporters of African American culture to the world.
I don’t think the word can ever truly die when I am bombarded with it at least a hundred times in the course of listening to a gangsta rap album, by artists who frankly make it sound pretty cool to say the word.
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@Hathor
“McWhorter forgets the entomology of the word as if “nigger” was an epithet. For many it was a description. The word was not use in the heat of anger, when some Black stepping out of their place or being an affront to white privilege, Black people were called that as their name. It was common usage, not just in low life society, but in polite company. It was like a salutation and description; our niggers, that uppity nigger or see them niggers doing such and such. Nigger, whats you name or what are you doing?”
I think he does not forget the etymology of the word but rather the word has undergone a change (albeit, a recent change) since its first use in the 1600’s to what is now an epithet. No one uses the word as a description in common usage now, nor have they in the last 50 years. So safe to say it is now an epithet, not a description and should be treated as such.
“MrWhorter may have only been called a nigger once, but people his parents age were called that in everyday situations.”
My mom was called ‘half-breed’ when she was growing up in the south, which sucks in and of itself.
@Hm
“Wonder if McWhorter thinks Dr. Angelou is screetchy or hypersensitive?”
I don’t think anyone would say Dr. Angelou is screechy or hypersensitive. That’s a fallacy.
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Marci said:
@Hm
“‘Wonder if McWhorter thinks Dr. Angelou is screetchy or hypersensitive?”
I don’t think anyone would say Dr. Angelou is screechy or hypersensitive. That’s a fallacy.”
Dr. Angelou, in an interview on the Oprah Winfrey show, said she doesn’t use the n-word or any other racial slur herself and doesn’t allow other people to the n-word or other racial slurs in her presence without calling them on it. McWhorter thinks blacks who object to the n-word and say so are ‘screechy and overly sensitive’. Hm’s question is, therefore, valid. Would McWhorter see someone as famous and well respected as Maya Angelou as ‘screaming foul’ or does that only apply to us ordinary mortals?
For my own part I don’t use the word and I have and will call other people out who do. That does not mean, however that I cuss them out or would pop anybody in mouth over it. That’s overkill; but I see no harm in telling people that it’s an inappropriate word to use and why. I think some whites will still use the n-word even if we don’t, but I also know that sometimes you have to take a stand against things you feel are wrong, even if you don’t change any minds by doing so.
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“but I also know that sometimes you have to take a stand against things you feel are wrong, even if you don’t change any minds by doing so.”
Indeed. When I challenge other whites to examine their racism all that happens is they write me off as angry/oversensitive/crazy/brainwashed. Still it needs to be done. Expecting to actually change peoples minds would be crazy-making. (Not that it doesn’t happen.)
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Marci,
I think you would have to update your time line of the use of the word. There were places in the south that were still stuck in the antebellum days almost til the 70’s. In other places they used a hybrid, Nigri or Nigra; that is also when they wanted outsiders to think they had more respect. Then also at that time it would roll off of Black folks lips just as easily and it wasn’t seen as a complimentary term.
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Sorry, I still think his question was more a strawman than anything else. The quote from the piece is this:
“McWhorter has little patience for those left-wing black thinkers who say no one should use the word, never ever.”
That’s a statement not made by McWhorter, but concluded by the writer of the piece, Abagond. Just as everything I have posted are drawn from his words and not directly from the words of McWhorter. In saying that though, it does read that the ‘little patience’ is directed at politicians and not Maya Angelou.
Good for Dr. Angelou about not using racial slurs. I’m an ordinary mortal and I have done so a few times, simply because I have a temper and sometimes my mouth runs away with my brain and when I try to make a point and it does not always come out correctly. Did I get called on it? Yes. Did I apologize about it? Yes. Did it change something in the relationship? Yes and it takes a long time to get it back to where it was because of it.
And you know what? Sometimes, I, myself, have little patience with those left-wingers who ramped up everything racial in politics. And I have EVEN LESS patience for those right-wingers, tea-baggers, libertarians, etc who ramped it up even more all the while screeching “I’m not being a racist just because I have a black co worker, friend, girlfriend, boyfriend yada yada yada”.
Sorry, I did not mean to rant and I hope I sound even a little bit coherent in what I said.
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@Hathor
Ugh, I guess I need to do so. I have never, ever heard of these words until this posting.
I’m reading your blog now and it is really interesting! And, not to hijack the thread, I would like to see that listing on Craiglist also.
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@Marci,
“Good for Dr. Angelou about not using racial slurs. I’m an ordinary mortal and I have done so a few times, simply because I have a temper and sometimes my mouth runs away with my brain and when I try to make a point and it does not always come out correctly. Did I get called on it? Yes. Did I apologize about it? Yes. Did it change something in the relationship? Yes and it takes a long time to get it back to where it was because of it. ”
I like the honesty of that, Marci, and the fact that you can admit wrong, apologize, and make amends. I don’t expect perfection from people, just that be willing to acknowledge wrong and make amends.
(This next part is not directed at you, Marci.)
I said in my ealier post that I don’t use the n-word or believe in its use and that’s true, but I didn’t get to where I am with that overnight–it took years. The probem I have with McWhorter is that he seems to feel one shouldn’t say anything when people say racist things in public for the sake of not creating a scene, if even one is polite about it. I think that’s wrong and that it lets racist people off the hook because when you don’t say anything they think you cosign their behavior. Abagond’s post on The Good Darkie Fallacy has lots of examples of this. Mcwhorter also seems to feel that calling people on their racisim indicates a lack of self-esteem; I believe it’s just the opposite. I takes a lot of guts to publicly call someone on their racism, especially in a situation where maybe you’re the only person of color in the room. With all that said, I again reiterate that I don’t think it’s necessary to shout, cuss, or resort to physical violence–in fact you don’t necessarily have say anything at all. Sometimes getting up and walking out will get your message across just fine. I just don’t advocate ingnoring rasim or rasist remarks completely because then the people making those remarks WILL think you’re okay with it.
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I have never read anything from McWhorter but what is written here so I cannot say anything more than I wholeheartedly agree with you about not letting racist remarks go without contesting them. I’m now committed to finding this book and reading it myself.
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Marci,
Thanks 😉
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McWhorter’s gig seem to be telling white folk what Black language means.
See his interview on Bill Moyers Journal.
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>>I think you are missing what he is saying with this one. It has nothing to do so much with the correct grammatical use of the words Jew or Jewish and everything to do with not letting the word control them so much anymore.
Sorry, your rabbi is wrong: a Jew can have a choice about being a Jew. Ask those who kept their life by denying being Jewish. It’s not like being black where skin, hair and facial features can mark you. Sure, there are facial features that are stereotypically Jewish, but surgery can change that. Just being technical and nitpicking when I say this, but that is what you were doing in your second posting also.<<
Actually, I'm pretty sure that Orthodox rabbi is very well acquainted with what being a Jew means–I certainly don't have the standing to debate him on it.
I get what he means, although apparently you don't. It's got nothing to do with facial features, although a Jew by blood can be identified genetically (there is a tribe of Africans who have been recently genetically identified as Jews–in fact, as lineal descendants of Aaron the brother of Moses–and Israel accepts them as such).
But his meaning is deeper and spiritual, an assertion that denying one's heritage does not erase it. If he says he's not a Jew, he may lie effectively, but he is yet lying.
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>>McWhorter forgets the entomology of the word as if “nigger” was an epithet. For many it was a description. The word was not use in the heat of anger, when some Black stepping out of their place or being an affront to white privilege, Black people were called that as their name. It was common usage, not just in low life society, but in polite company. It was like a salutation and description; our niggers, that uppity nigger or see them niggers doing such and such. Nigger, whats you name or what are you doing?
MrWhorter may have only been called a nigger once, but people his parents age were called that in everyday situations.<<
No, that's not true.
It has been known as an epithet since the moment it was coined–which is why the African Methodist Church (founded in 1816) is not the "Nigger Methodist Church." Did any of the black writers of the 1600s, 1700s, or 1800s refer to themselves as "niggers?" Not a one.
You won't even find any white writers from earlier centuries who put "nigger" into the mouths of any characters they portrayed as admirable and intelligent, let me know–except some who wrote clearly to support racism, such as the spate of pro-slavery books that came out after "Uncle Tom's Cabin."
You certainly can find writers such as Samuel Clemens and Harriet Stowe in the 19th century who put "nigger" into the mouths of characters they deliberately intended to portray as evil, ignorant, or uncouth.
It has never been used merely "as a description" in the US except specifically by people who held African-Americans in contempt and were unashamed to show it. Booker T Washington and Debois would have been offended by it.
The only white people who would have called McWhorter's parents "nigger" were people who harbored contempt for them. I was there then, I remember.
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@RDKirk
“I get what he means, although apparently you don’t. It’s got nothing to do with facial features, although a Jew by blood can be identified genetically (there is a tribe of Africans who have been recently genetically identified as Jews–in fact, as lineal descendants of Aaron the brother of Moses–and Israel accepts them as such).”
I get exactly what he means, thank you. I know about the tribe also. In fact, I used to date a Russian Jewish guy who made it his business to help some African Jews get to Israel as well as Jews from other countries.
I am not talking about spiritual meaning or anything like that. I agree with your rabbi firmly there. I’m Roman Catholic, (though I tend to call myself a recovering Catholic) and no matter what I may reject or affirm about my religion, much of me is colored by that.
If you go back and read my posting again you will see I am talking physically and you just agreed with me. “If he says he’s not a Jew, he may lie effectively, but he is yet lying.”
A Jew can deny being a Jew, unlike someone who is black. If a Jew is adopted as a baby into a Protestant family and is raised in that faith, who can tell? Whereas you adopt a black child or an asian one into a white family and everyone knows. No one makes an automatic judgement about someone who is Jewish because they do not carry their religion around with them the way someone who is not white does.
I know I’m not the most coherent person in the world but do you understand what I am saying now? it has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with the physical. That is all I was commenting on.
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“No one makes an automatic judgement about someone who is Jewish because they do not carry their religion around with them the way someone who is not white does.”
Ergh, that should have read “No one makes an automatic judgement about someone who is Jewish because they do not carry their religion around with them the way someone who is not white carries around their color”.
mea culpa
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ES,
It’s not about actually knowing someone Black who uses the word. It’s more about popular culture. I have hardly ever met any African Americans in person (and there’s only one that I know somewhat well), but I’ve heard the n-word thousands upon thousands of times out of Black mouths. From rap music, from movies and TV – these are the exporters of African American culture to the world.
I haven’t (and I would bet I’ve been exposed to more Black people than you have), obviously experiences vary. But we could have the same conversation about words like “b*tch”, “sl*t”, “f*g”, and other things that epitomize the crassness of American culture. As I just wrote on my blog, I don’t think anyone would argue that I should let people call me a b*tch based on the fact that some (even many, among some of the younger set) women call each other b*tches.
There are plenty of other “cool” words people probably want to use, but don’t because they know it will have negative consequences (being ostracized, getting fired, etc.). It’s the same thing with this one, but people are trying to find a loophole to get rid of the consequences. We accept the possibility of consequences for a billion other things; I don’t know how this is any different. I don’t know if there are people who are up in arms about a White person using the word and who have the power enact negative consequences that wouldn’t enact the same consequences if a Black person said it. Simply, if a White guy walks into an office, says, “What up n*ggas?” and doesn’t get a job, I don’t think the person doing the hiring would give the job to a Black person who did the same thing. But that’s probably because most people who say Black people can use it and White people can’t don’t seem to particularly want to use it themselves, even if they are Black.
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*Sorry, the first paragraph should’ve been bolded since I quoted you.*
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RD Kirk,
Initially I was not speaking of Black people and I think you know this.
No, it was not everywhere, but just look at some of the interviews of people in the south during the fifties and sixties when they were speaking of Black people.
I also said nothing of the words intent, they didn’t just single out special Black people to call nigger. When you call a dog, a dog; we all know we are not giving it human attributes.
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>>Hathor–Initially I was not speaking of Black people and I think you know this.
No, it was not everywhere, but just look at some of the interviews of people in the south during the fifties and sixties when they were speaking of Black people.
I also said nothing of the words intent, they didn’t just single out special Black people to call nigger. When you call a dog, a dog; we all know we are not giving it human attributes.<<
I was there in the fifties and sixties–you can interview me.
It was ALWAYS a term used either by the ignorant and uncouth or in contempt. It has NEVER been a reputable term. There have ALWAYS been other terms used by educated people in polite situations.
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@RDKirk, Hathor
This is just a little aside I thought you two might find interesting: it does support what you said RDK-that the word was not used in polite company. At least not in the publishing world.
I used to be an Agatha Christie fan and one of her books “And Then There Were None” was originally called “Ten Little Niggers” and published in 1939 in the UK. When it was published in the US in 1940, the title had undergone a change to “Ten Little Indians”.
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RD Kirk is revising history. Of course the “literary world” it might be considered polite society and in RD Kirk’s circle they might of said “Nigra” instead, but I think he had a very sheltered life.
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“It was ALWAYS a term used either by the ignorant and uncouth or in contempt. It has NEVER been a reputable term. There have ALWAYS been other terms used by educated people in polite situations.”
didn’t know that. I thought that it was a derogatory term that was also socially acceptable for a time.
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Well I haven’t had a sheltered life, and I grew up in the deep south of the 1970’s. I have my own experiences and those of my older siblings who grew up in ’60s, as well as those of my parents (they grew up in the ’30s and ’40s) to draw on. And I’ll tell you this: RD Kirk is right. The n-word HAS always been a derogatory and insulting way of describing blacks. Even in the ’30s, ’40s, ’50s, and ’60s, white people only used the term ni##er when they wanted to insult and degrade.
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wikipedia goes into some detail.
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I did not say it was not a derogatory term, what I was partially implying is what jasOnburns said, that it was socially acceptable. That was was I as alluding too when I said:
When you call a dog, a dog; we all know we are not giving it human attributes.
It seems that RD Kirk is trying to define what I said and being an apologist for those people who used the word as natural as they were saying “Good Morning.”
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“That was what I was alluding to”
Even when I read over my comments I still miss things, I wish there was a preview.
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>>RD Kirk is revising history. Of course the “literary world” it might be considered polite society and in RD Kirk’s circle they might of said “Nigra” instead, but I think he had a very sheltered life.<<
I'm not revising history. Go read some history. You can find writings from people all the way back to the late 1700s through the 60s. You will only see "nigger" from the pens or the mouths of the contemptuous and the ignorant. Even slaveowners writing about their slaves did not wrote "nigger."
Of course that was "polite society." That's the point: "Nigger" always was considered vulgar and used by vulgar people.
Sheltered life? I marched in segregated towns and had "nigger" hurled at me by white people who were literally frothing like dogs, spit drooling from their lips. I've had white men on my yard calling me out, "Come out of that house, nigger!" and had to pull a gun on them. I've been caught in the wrong place in the wrong time and found myself on the ground with white men howling, "Kick the nigger! Kick the nigger!"
I've been sports teams traveling to "sundown towns" and having to be very careful to get off the bus, go into the gym, play the game, get back on the bus, and get the hell out of the town.
The last time I sat in a segregated movie theater was on July 20, 1969. That was in Sapulpa, Oklahoma…which made the national news the day after Obama's election because the town newspaper refused to run the story.
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After reading that, I don’t know what to say to anyone who has grown up during those times and experiences racism like that today, but thank you for being strong enough to combat it and become the person you are today. Thank you for the life we have today, as trite as that sounds.
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RD Kirk,
And somehow you think only the vulgar people hurled the word at you.
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>>And somehow you think only the vulgar people hurled the word at you.<<
Not at all. I'm sure the "polite" people also uttered it in the country clubs and church socials where black people didn't even have jobs as busboys.
You're running on totally uninformed opinion. Go read what people have written over the last 200 years–see if you ever find evidence of that word ever being commonly used in any way other than contemptuously.
Go to the South and talk to some of the old War Generation black people still alive. Ask them if they ever heard a white person utter that word to them "respectfully."
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RD Kirk,
NO ONES ARGUING IF THE SKY IS BLUE.
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Hathor,
You said to RDKirk: >>And somehow you think only the vulgar people hurled the word at you.<<
Ummh….Isn't it sort of obvious that ANYONE hurling the "N" word is by the very definition, "vulgar?"
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SouthernWhiteWoman,
I was using RD Kirk’s definition. His use for vulgar also implied social status.
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When I hear Jews calling each other “kike”, then I’ll use the N word. Otherwise, it should be out of bounds for civilized and sensible people.
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I don’t think anyone should use it. To me it is very very dumb. If it is to be used I think it should be used “properly”…for someone completely DUMB. I also do not agree with girls calling each other the B word and such. If you want to use a term of endearment say a word that is endearing, like love, sweetie, hunnie. Take your pick. We seem to be in a day and age when derogatory is cute. And I hate the F word, that is a gay slur.
And now we have artist from all over the world using the word and probably not know what it REALLY means. *sigh* I really hate that word.
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abagond, please tell me you’ve included John McWhorter in your Rented Negro post!
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@ Fleecyhead
Never fear, I did:
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John Mcwhorter is a rented negro. I find him extremely annoying.
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I have an interest in linguistics and he is scholar in this field so i am willing to read his books on this topic.
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