Most women who are raped are raped by someone they know: a husband, an old boyfriend, a date, someone at work, etc. There is no sure way to know in advance whether a particular man will rape you, but there are certain danger signs to watch for:
- Self-centredness – to the point where he always puts his needs and wants and feelings above those of others. He thinks the world owes him whatever he wants. He has no trouble excusing mean behaviour. He makes you feel bad for not doing what he wants.
- Belittling – he puts down others, often as a “joke”. He thinks he is better than others and looks down on them.
- Tells you what you are or are not thinking and feeling. When you try to set him straight he does not listen or take you seriously. He says things like, “You don’t really mean that.” A man like that will make your “no” to sex into a “yes” whether you like it or not.
- Uses violent and threatening language, like calling you a “bitch”. While everyone looses it now and then with him it is a constant thing.
- Uses threats and even violence to get his way. Especially with people he thinks are weaker.
- Has trouble with anger. He blows up over little things. It is like he is trying to find excuses to get angry. If this leads to violence, even worse. He especially gets angry when he does not get his way. He breaks things, hits things.
- Sudden changes of mood. Most people cannot suddenly go from happy to angry – or back again – quickly. But he does. A very bad sign: a man like that is capable of unlimited violence and damage.
- Jock mindset. Because of sports he sees violence as excusable in daily life.
- Gets mean when drunk.
- Drinks or uses drugs. These by themselves do not cause rape but nearly all rapes take place when a man has been drinking or doing drugs.
- Does not face up to the wrong he has done others. If you ask about something wrong he did, the thing to watch for is empathy and moral reasoning. It is a bad sign if he:
- Makes light of it, tries to play it off.
- Gets upset and never seems to want to talk about it.
- Makes it all about his feelings and the wrong that was done to him.
- Is long on how and what but short on why.
- Turns it on you.
Do not be alone with a man like this, most especially after he has been drinking or doing drugs.
If your boyfriend or husband is like this, you are in danger. Even if he does not rape you he may beat you, even wind up killing you, or take part in other crimes. Do not fool yourself into thinking you can change him or that you are that special to him.
See also:
- No Nonsense Self-Defense: Potential Rapist Profile – what I based this post on. There is way more stuff there if you want to read more
- black rape statistics – wherein I argue against the treasured White American belief that black men are more given to rape because they are black
- Jim Crow – was excused on said belief
- Jim Crow – was excused on said belief
- domestic violence
- How a wife beater thinks – pretty much the same way that rapists do
- How a wife beater thinks – pretty much the same way that rapists do
One of the key components not mentioned here is that rape stems also from a ‘hatred’ of women and/or at the very least an ‘unusual’ perception of women/womenhood
This is an area of study in Psychology, unfortunately,
I could not find any relevant information via the web.
This is about the best I can do………………………For now
http://www.holysmoke.org/fem/fem0126.htm
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Rape, The Misunderstood Crime By Julie A. Allison, Lawrence S. Wrightsman
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=GI0BXXNQJ-QC&pg=PA65&lpg=PA65&dq=rape+traits+of+rapist+who+rape+acquaintances&source=bl&ots=EOV8BKyHKk&sig=5G10eG8XxwqYcQ6oxGphgGcwrIM&hl=en&ei=8wXHS-DRJ5H__AbCqaHTDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CBQQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
P 68 provides a character profile of the victimer in ‘Date Rape’
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Nice read, I know people like that, unfortunately they probably do things like this also> i read this article (though not in full) seconds after reading this post.
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When it said that most women know their rapist. That may be true, but it may not to be to extent of knowing that person’s personality. I think a self defense approach is best to protect yourself. As much as I hate to say this, women can not exert the same freedom of movement as men. By self defense I mean, if you are alone do not ever get high or drunk at parties even if you know people there, walk or exercise alone in covered spaces (lots of trees, bushes) early in the morning or at night, be leery of invitations for a ride or visiting their apartment unless you know them really well and they do not exhibit signs of 1-11.
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You realize that most of those “warning signs” could be easily labeled “warning signs of masculinity in general”?
Particularly numbers 1,2,3,6,8 and 10.
Seriously, Abagond, this sort of “psychologizing on the fly” is dangerous. It promotes fuzzy thinking, stereotyping and fear-mongering.
Dude, I’d be willing to bet 70% of the men in America have “a jock mindset” and “drink”. You’re seriously telling people these folks are more prone to rape?
What this looks like is a list of real symptoms mixed in with a general list of masculine characteristics. Some are probably causal and others are merely linked, and yet this article presents both as if they were causal.
Here’s the bottom line: ladies, don’t date any man who doesn’t fit whatever current stereotype Hollywood is pushing as an appropriate masculine love interest.
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Mmm interesting read. I was talking to two friends of mine this weekend and date rape came up. One said a friend of hers was raped by someone in their inside circle. Another one, a male, told me one of his friends had to go get her stomach pumped after a night of drinking and the doctors found the date-rape drug in her drink. All of his female friends said it had to be a atranger. Being the clever guy he explained that it had to be a friend, othewise the drugs would have been a waste. If the girl got sick and a stranger tried to take her away from the bar, people would have interviend. However, if she was escort home by a friend, nobody would have suspected any bad intentions.
At uni we had a program where a coordinator from a nearby domestic violence shelter can and spoke to us about abuse. She told us about her personal struggle of being rapes by her ex-fiance’s best friend very sad. It is surprising how many women buy into the belief that a big, burly, “dangerous” looking man will jump our of the shadows and rape them when more than 80% of rapes are committed by acquaintances.
The only things I disagree with is the anger part… a lot of rapists have the personal of being a “nice guy”, the coordinator said that she(like most victims) was groomed by her attacker. She said that over the summer he would hang out with her all the time and tell her he would help her ex-fiance “realize his mistake”. She thought he was :on her side.” The same can be said for child molesters. Most of them come off as “safe people” that just really like children. I was at a vagina monologue event and one girl’s story was she was raped by her father best-friend. Most sexual assaults are committed by people one would least expect.
Either way, everyone(men and women alike) should be conscious of their surroundings
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Great article. It’s good to know the warning signs to prevent rape.
It seems like it is less about sex and more about control and power.
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Like J said, some of the most concrete “potential rapist” characteristics are hard to determine in everyday life. They tend to have higher than normal sex drives and more negative attitudes towards women, but determining whether a person deviates from “normal” is difficult when you are dealing with an individual.
I go to school on a “rape-prone” campus, and some of the things listed in this post are related. The factors the woman describing rape-prone campuses listed were:
1. Heavy religious influence–Premarital sex is supposed to be sinful so there’s a stigma in admitting to having sex or being in a sexual situation.
2. Binge drinking and alcoholism
3. Athlete worship–This is different than the “jock mindset” in that the power and adoration bestowed on our athletes (especially the football team) elevates them to superhero status.
4. Lots of rich, White males–They come from families of power and are used to getting their way (and sometimes making “problems” go away).
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@ J:
I co-sign with you on the anti-women philosophies. The view of women as sluts and whores, or of being beneath men in status, is a very common “script” that plays in the minds of the kind of men who rape.
@ Thaddeus
You realize that most of those “warning signs” could be easily labeled “warning signs of masculinity in general”?
Perhaps this is a reminder about how many facets of traditional “macho” masculinity are supportive of rape. I’m sure there is a clear correlation between these “warning signs” and other kinds of violence (brawling, domestic abuse, etc), so why not rape?
I agree though that the way this has been presented can be misleading.
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@ Eurasian Sensation
@ Thad
Thad lives in Brazil and for all purposes, is pretty much Brazilian. (and American) You’ll find that much of what is written above would be heartily laughed at among a group of “macho” Brazilians while tossing back some beer on the beach. Some girls would concur and laugh… It can be a cultural thing too.
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Perhaps this is a reminder about how many facets of traditional “macho” masculinity are supportive of rape.
Or perhaps it’s a tautology, you know?
Given that most rapists are men, one can plausibly state that any male characteristic is a characteristic of most rapists.
Abagond could have just as well added “pisses standing up” as a “warning sign”. It would be true. I bet 99% of all rapists piss standing up.
Whether or not said behavior CAUSES rape – that’s the question here.
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In other words, “correlation” is not “causation” ES. “Pisses standing up” is quite definitely “correlated” with rape.
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Thad said:
“You realize that most of those “warning signs” could be easily labeled “warning signs of masculinity in general”?
Particularly numbers 1,2,3,6,8 and 10.”
No, but they might be labelled “warning signs of being a macho jerk”. The kind that mistreats women.
Some of these are not “just being a man”. Some are profound character faults. Belittling people, threats of violence to get your way, lack of empathy, not facing up to the wrong you have done, always putting your needs over others, these are character faults. They lead to trouble because people like that will often stop at nothing to get their way. They do not care who they hurt. They have little trouble excusing their behaviour after the fact.
Some people will read this list and say, “Most people I know are like that. What is the big deal?” The big deal is that most people you know are bad characters.
Anyone of these by itself is not a big deal. It is when most or all come together that it is bad news.
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No, but they might be labelled “warning signs of being a macho jerk”. The kind that mistreats women.
I really don’t know if the one thing necessarily leads to the other, Abagond. “Macho jerks” are not necessarily bad to the women in their lives. Nor are “sensitive new age guys” necessarily good.
Some of these are not “just being a man”. Some are profound character faults.
Oh, no doubt. Slapping people around, frex. But drinking and grooving on sports, Abagond? C’mon… That means Ana Paula demonstrates the danger signs of being a rapist. 😀
“Most people I know are like that. What is the big deal?” The big deal is that most people you know are bad characters.
Bullsh%t. Most people I know are not rapists, Abagond. Sorry to bust that little politically correct “just so” tale, but it’s simply not true.
Anyone of these by itself is not a big deal. It is when most or all come together that it is bad news.
I would say that the violence and mood-swings are the main problem there. And I’d watch out for anyone who displays that, whether or not they enjoy drinking or sports or are self-centered.
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The post does not say that drinking or liking sports leads to rape.
Also: just because most people you know do X that does not make X all right.
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There are an estimated 1.5 million Black men in prison and another 3.5 million on probation. Black males make up more than 70 percent of the total prison population, even though they make up only 6 percent of the U.S. population.
Although blacks are 12% of the population in reality it is just 2% of the blacks that commit 50% of the murders and a greater percentage of other crimes. Consider: black females – 6%. Blacks from zero yrs. to 12 yrs. and black males from 50-100 years commit an infinitesimal percentage of the crimes. Therefore we are left with two percent. If we eliminate crimes committed by this two percent from the U.S. statistics our country compares very favorably with all Western countries. Fact — blacks kill 7 times more than whites kill. Fact — blacks kill whites 20 times more than whites kill blacks. Fact — blacks mug or commit group crime against whites 50 times more than whites commit against blacks. Fact — blacks rape white women 2000 (yes 2000) times more than whites rape black women. In New York City, about 300 white women are raped by blacks every year BUT there has not been a black woman raped by a white male in anybody¢s memory (going back over 20 yrs.) Consider: Al Sharpton had to go upstate New York to find a hoax and that was almost 20 years ago. (Source NYT 4/22/05)
According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics 2004 report (released May 2006), blacks commit 54 percent of the homicides in America even though they constitute only 12 percent of the population.
An individual black male is seven times more likely to commit murder than an individual white male. It so happens that black felons commit 43 percent of aggravated assaults, 66 percent of armed robberies, 27 percent of rapes and 85 percent of interracial crimes of violence, mainly against whites (this last figure from a Justice Department report 2003). However, it’s not just in the United States. The greatest dicators in recent years have emerged in Africa. People like Idi Amin of Uganda, Hastings Kamuzu Banda in Malawi, Mobutu Sese Seko, in Zaire, self-anointed Emperor Bokassa of the Central African Republic, Mohammed Saidi Barre in Somalia, Sani Abacha of Nigeria, Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe — the list is endless
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Widlinne:
1. Where did you get that comment from?
2. This post says NOTHING directly about black men, so why are YOU bringing it up?
3. I just did a post on black rape statistics, so this comment properly belongs over there:
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Yeah, abagond, that comment above yours is just off-topic and obviously a trollish copy and paste. Delete. You need to practice more comment sterilization
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Thad said:
“I really don’t know if the one thing necessarily leads to the other, Abagond. “Macho jerks” are not necessarily bad to the women in their lives. Nor are “sensitive new age guys” necessarily good.”
Learn to read. The post is not about cause and effect, about why men rape. It is about DANGER SIGNS. Things to watch out for. As I said in the post there is no sure way to tell if a man will become a rapist. He could have ALL of these signs and be harmless; he could have NONE of them and have a long history of rape. We both know that human behaviour is not as simple as you are misreading my post to mean.
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Thaddeus
I actually think that most men are prone to rape given the right circumstance.
Say, a shortage of women and a large war.
That doesn’t they are going to rape people in today’s world, but if things change, I wouldn’t be surprised to see men raping women willy-nilly. It’s happened too often in the past.
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I’ve personally known and worked with quite a few cats with this temperament, but can’t recall any of them being known rapists. Not surprising since most rapes are never reported.
On the other hand, years ago I went out on date with an Assistant District Attorney who seemed like a reasonable and normal person every time we talked before when we’d run into each other.
During the evening, he drank way too much. He drove me home (I didn’t have money for a cab), and his drunk azz self wheedled his way into my place under the pretext of needing to use the bathroom, and then tried to rape me. He only stopped trying after I yelled I’d file rape charges if he did. He left, but not before swinging at me. He missed enough that he only knocked off my eye glasses.
He may or may not have fit that profile. Also, men tend to rape in war, not only the type you described but the “nice boy next door”, who returns home like it never happened.
Your list is excellent, though. Guys like that may or may not rape a woman sexually or physically, but they’ll darn sure rape her and her life in other ways. Thank for this post.
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@Thad: “You realize that most of those “warning signs” could be easily labeled “warning signs of masculinity in general”?
Particularly numbers 1,2,3,6,8 and 10.”
Thad, I think you’re way underestimating how much of a warning sign 3 is, in particular. It was the biggest warning sign in the guy who came after me in my college dorm shower, after I’d told him no three times.
@Big Man: I actually think that most men are prone to rape given the right circumstance.
Ack, I’d become a lesbian separatist if I believed this.
Say, a shortage of women and a large war.
War, with its dehumanization of the enemy, definitely drastically increases the set of people willing to commit all kinds of atrocities. I still think, though, that it’s not an actual majority doing the raping, but rather a minority raping and a larger set of men being guilty bystanders.
Given that lots of rapists commit multiple rapes, the set of women who have been raped will always be larger than the set of men who have raped.
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It’s interesting, I saw a show on a program similiar to Dateline which said that some women are more subseptible to being raped than others. And it’s not based on attractiveness or anything physical. But there are actually cues that rapists pick up on.
That was hard for me to believe.
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With regard to (and I have added word in caps)
“Some women [CAN BECOME] more subseptible to being raped than others. And it’s not based on attractiveness or anything physical. But there are actually cues that rapists pick up on.
That was hard for me to believe
And this bespeaks to the problem regarding ‘rape myths’
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Abagond said:
Some of these traits are not “just being a man” but warning signs of profound character faults such as:
1) belittling people, 2) lack of empathy, 3) not facing up to the wrong you have done, 4) stopping at nothing to get their way, 5) do not care who they hurt, and 6) have little trouble excusing their behaviour after the fact.
Menelik replies:
stop talking about no_slappz behind his back lol
Menelik Charles
London England
PS forgive the slight alterations, if you will, Abagond. Thanks.
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Islandgirl,
I’m not surprised. When I took self-defense, the instructor told us you are less likely to be attacked if you walk resolutely, look suspicious people in the face (they will be reluctant to attack someone who could possibly identify them), etc. However, that seems to apply more to being raped by a stranger, because someone who knows you, while he could “prey on your weaknesses”, so to speak, would have more information on you (and a relationship), unlike a random guy on the street.
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ha ha ha funny!!
However, ironically I think some of the traits 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
can be applied to others here apart from No_Slappz
he he he
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@Y:
This nearly happened to my sister. When my sister was younger, she went out with some of her girlfriends to a club. When they were at the club, my sister said she wasn’t feeling well. She thought she was coming down with the flu. Well, she saw an old guy friend from high school and they chatted about the old days. She said she bought a drink and turned her back to him to talk to another friend.
Shortly afterwards, she told her girlfriends that she wasn’t feeling that great and one of them drove her home. As soon as she entered her apartment, she ran to the bathroom and threw up and headed straight to bed. When she woke up, she had a vague recollection of what happened at the club.
Later, she learned the guy “friend” was charged with possession of GHB for the purpose of trafficking. My sister was very upset, understandably so, that this SOB had every intention of raping my sister.
There was also one time when a trusted family “friend” tried to have his way with me, but for the grace of God, I escaped.
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To Abagond:
Although the majority of rapists know their victims I am pretty sure the majority of rapists are not current or former boyfriends, husbands, or friends of the victim. Date rape is fairly common but I suspect that the majority of time it is a first or second date when the rape occurs, not well into a relationship. When it is mentioned that a woman is acquainted with a rapist it is often a neighbor or co-worker that the woman does not have close contact with. (At least what I know from some anecdotal incidents..) So even though I think your essay is informative it does not cover nearly all of the types of acquaintance rape out there. (And I don’t think you meant it to…)
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I am not quite why I have the hunch that:
1. I am pretty sure the majority of rapists are not current or former boyfriends, husbands, or friends of the victim.
2. When it is mentioned that a woman is acquainted with a rapist it is often a neighbor or co-worker that the woman does not have close contact with
3. Date rape…I suspect that the majority of time [it occurs as] a first or second date [but] not well into a relationship
falls into the issue of ‘rape myths’
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12. He’s from a “diverse” population.
Beware, ladies!!!
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To J:
falls into the issue of ‘rape myths’
I doubt you or I could clearly prove or disprove my statement. I did say majority…. eg 50.1% or greater. With that assertion in my conceivably 49.9% of the assaults could occur from someone you who is close to the victim. (I am speaking of adult victims, children are a different matter..)
As for your corrections.. sorry I was typing quickly and was distracted in the middle of my post. That said I have seen you and many other posters also make grammatical and spelling errors. That tends to happen in forums where one can not go back and edit a post.
Many of date myths, from the list you posted previously, were relevant in my opinion but it had a few statements that appeared to be in contradiction and one was very much in conflict with multiple studies that I had read.
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J:
falls into the issue of ‘rape myths’
The rape myths link you posted previously, has some relevant statements but some of it’s assertions stand in conflict with some other studies.. FWIW.
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In my previous post:
“With that assertion in my conceivably”
Should read
“With that assertion in mind, conceivably”
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Cheers Uncle Milton but do they stand in contradistinction to my hunch??
With regard to:
“some of it’s assertions stand in conflict with some other studies”
Here is the link again, is it possible to tell which ones are problematic
http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/myths.html
Cheers
And just for clarification there are a number of
other ‘rape myths’. The link does not provide a definitive list of every rape list
And the best way of at least a working operational definition of ‘rape myth’ is ‘as a prejudicial stereotyped or false beliefs about rape, rape victims and rapists’
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I see that you have already provided some insight into the question Uncle Milton. So not to worry, unless you should
choose otherwise.
Cheers…
Just to say…
My hunch is based that ‘rape myths’ reveal if I have remembered correctly that any male can rape, including husband and/or boyfriends, and not just
‘distant friends’.
With regard to ‘date rape’ not developing further into the relationship is confusing the term ‘date rape’ with ‘boyfriend/girlfriend’ and further it presumes that women will continue to go out with those who ‘date rape’ them, just by the wording. I am not sure if taht was your intention or not.
I hope this has clarified (especially since I am multi-tasking and not doing a good job)
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Peter Lerman said:
“12. He’s from a “diverse” population.
Beware, ladies!!!”
Are you saying that black women should beware of all white men?
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The post does not say that drinking or liking sports leads to rape.
No, it just implies that those characteristics are a danger sign of men that rape. C’mon. Let’s not pick nits here, Abagond: this is a list of what things women should supposedly watch out for. Causality is CERTAINLY implied.
Also: just because most people you know do X that does not make X all right.
Er… come again? Are you trying to imply that I’m saying that rape is OK because most people I know don’t do it? Because that’s what it looks like.
Learn to read. The post is not about cause and effect, about why men rape. It is about DANGER SIGNS. Things to watch out for.
This is implies causality, does it not? Because otherwise, why even bring these “signs” up? I mean, you might as well say “having a penis is a danger sign of being a rapist” otherwise.
@Lynn:
Thad, I think you’re way underestimating how much of a warning sign 3 [telling people what they are thinking/ feeling or not thinking/feeling] is, in particular. It was the biggest warning sign in the guy who came after me in my college dorm shower, after I’d told him no three times.
Lynn, EVERY single woman I have ever known has made a point of telling the men in their lives what they are thinking/feeling or not thinking/feeling. While I do realize this may have been the case of the guy who came after you, I hardly think it’s a danger sign in general. If it is, women are pretty dangerous.
IIRC, Abagond’s ex was crack at telling him what he was thinking and feeling.
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Most of the rapes and near-rapes that I know of personally were cases where an older TRUSTED male was alone with a teenaged girl and (tried to) take advantage of her.
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Thad:
In another post I said the SIGNS of swine flu were:
* unusual tiredness,
* headache,
* runny nose,
* sore throat,
* shortness of breath or cough,
* loss of appetite,
* aching muscles,
* diarrhoea or vomiting.
And by your reasoning you would say this:
“C’mon. Let’s not pick nits here, Abagond: this is a list of what things people should supposedly watch out for. Causality is CERTAINLY implied”
and this:
“This is implies causality, does it not? Because otherwise, why even bring these “signs” up? I mean, you might as well say “having a throat is a danger sign of having swin flu” otherwise.”
So your comments are in this vein: Oh, come on Abagond, I know plenty of people with a runny nose and sore throat who did not have swine flu”.
And so on.
SYMPTONS and CAUSES are two different things. Any one or two symptons could mean any number of things. All of them together might still not mean you have swine flu. Even so it is still a cause for concern.
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Rape Myths per se:
Click to access RapeMyths0507.pdf
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Thad:
I said point-blank that drinking does NOT CAUSE rape:
“10. Drinks or uses drugs. These by themselves do not cause rape but nearly all rapes take place when a man has been drinking or doing drugs.”
As to sports I did NOT say that liking sports was a danger sign. What I said was:
“8. Jock mindset. Some sports, like boxing and football, require violence, but he lets it cross over into his thinking.”
Perhaps I was unclear. What I meant was this: MOST PEOPLE have no trouble drawing the line between violence on the field and violence in their daily life. But A FEW PEOPLE do. Those are the ones you got to watch.
It does not mean they are ALL rapists or even MOSTLY rapists. But it is a red flag. Likewise it does not mean that those who hate sports never rape women. Etc.
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I said:
“Also: just because most people you know do X that does not make X all right.”
Thad said:
“Er… come again? Are you trying to imply that I’m saying that rape is OK because most people I know don’t do it? Because that’s what it looks like.”
I took it as a given that you think rape is wrong. What I meant is that you seemed to think there was nothing wrong with the danger signs because most men have them. I am saying that that does not make it all right.
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To J:
Your statement:
“With regard to ‘date rape’ not developing further into the relationship is confusing the term ‘date rape’ with ‘boyfriend/girlfriend’ and further it presumes that women will continue to go out with those who ‘date rape’ them, just by the wording.”
My statement:
“Date rape is fairly common but I suspect that the majority of time it is a first or second date when the rape occurs, not well into a relationship.”
Your statement:
“I am not sure if taht was your intention or not”
Sorry I’ll clarify, from anecdotal evidence of assaults of friends and relatives, in every case the date rape occurred within the first (often first) few dates. EG the rapist’s goal was to find an opportunity to commit rape as soon as possible.
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To Abagond:
Most of the rapes and near-rapes that I know of personally were cases where an older TRUSTED male was alone with a teenaged girl and (tried to) take advantage of her.
Personally, I would place those under the category of child molestation, as opposed to rape, which I would agree is predominantly committed by someone rather familiar to the child.
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Thanks Uncle Milton, the research in this link suggests much more than this is at work – It also touches upon some of your other points too…
I am not sure if you would like to take a look
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=GI0BXXNQJ-QC&pg=PA65&lpg=PA65&dq=rape+traits+of+rapist+who+rape+acquaintances&source=bl&ots=EOV8BKyHKk&sig=5G10eG8XxwqYcQ6oxGphgGcwrIM&hl=en&ei=8wXHS-DRJ5H__AbCqaHTDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CBQQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false
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Oops forget a good place to start for the purposes of what we are discussing is p.60
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To J:
My hunch is based that ‘rape myths’ reveal if I have remembered correctly that any male can rape, including husband and/or boyfriends, and not just
‘distant friends’.
Yes, I would agree, any man can conceivably commit rape including ex/current boyfriends and husbands, but from anecdotal stories, I get the impression that the majority (but not by any means the vast majority…) of acquaintance rapes are committed by men who are not that familiar to the women. In contrast from what I have heard the opposite holds true for female victims who are under age.
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To J:
Thanks Uncle Milton, the research in this link suggests much more than this is at work – It also touches upon some of your other points too. I am not sure if you would like to take a look.
I am sure there is a certain percentage of rapes committed by people rather familiar to the victims. That said I think these studies, like any study of social behavior should not be considered the final word on the subject and necessarily
are a relatively small sample of the populace and subject to the researcher’s biases.
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To J:
http://www.d.umn.edu/cla/faculty/jhamlin/3925/myths.html
Here’s a rape myths listed above that I believe to be a myth:
“Myth: Women fantasize about being raped.
Fact: No woman fantasizes about being raped. Fantasies about aggressive sex may be controlled and turned off if they become threatening. In rape, the victim is unable to control the violence and stop it.”
I believe I understand why it is placed amongst the other myths… this list is not really nuanced and it’s target audience sound like High Schoolers and College students and the less educated about human sexuality.
I would say yes, women do not want to be raped.. but like or not rape fantasies are very common among women (and men…) according to Master’s and Johnson, Kensey, and a number of other researchers. (And from some women I have known in my life…)
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Abagond, the warning signs for swine flu are well known and empirically verifiable, unlike warning women that a lust for sports may mean a man is a rapist.
It’s not the idea of “signs” that bother me: it’s the idea that somehow your signs of a rapist are as empirically verifiable as the signs for swine flu.
To use your metaphor, it’s as if you wrote that the signs for swine flu were:
* unusual tiredness,
* headache,
* runny nose,
* hair on one’s head,
* a wet mouth,
* two functioning eyeballs
* aching muscles,
* diarrhoea or vomiting.
It’s a grab bag of definite symptoms, things which may be symptoms and “symptoms” which are pretty much common to every living person on the planet.
Also, we can empirically check to see if a person has swine flu if they present symptoms and doing so doesn’t hurt a single other person on the planet. Your “symptom list” for rape cannot be empirically checked and – as I said in my original comment, above – is liable to lead to stereotyping and fear-mongering.
I said point-blank that drinking does NOT CAUSE rape:
“10. Drinks or uses drugs. These by themselves do not cause rape but nearly all rapes take place when a man has been drinking or doing drugs.”
You most definitely imply a causal connection between the two. You could also say that most rape occurs within 4 hours of a man EATING and be just as correct. While I believe that drinking can indeed lead to stupid-ass behavior, your post very clearly implies that a man drinking is a warning sign of a rapist. In fact, that’s what it STRICTLY SAYS, Abagond.
Drinking is not a “red flag for rape”, Abagond, I’m sorry. If it were, a hell of a lot of more people would be getting raped.
What I meant was this: MOST PEOPLE have no trouble drawing the line between violence on the field and violence in their daily life. But A FEW PEOPLE do. Those are the ones you got to watch.
And how would you suggest a woman actually draw this line? Would you like to clearly point it out for us? What are the danger signs, exactly, that a woman should look out for here? Because your post does indeed imply that a man thinking about boxing is a danger sign for rape.
What I meant is that you seemed to think there was nothing wrong with the danger signs because most men have them. I am saying that that does not make it all right.
So taking a drink or thinking about boxing is wrong, according to you?
Where’s the line, Abagond? Can you clearly show us it?
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Lynn, EVERY single woman I have ever known has made a point of telling the men in their lives what they are thinking/feeling or not thinking/feeling.
Do they specifically tell you that you want things that you’ve explicitly said you don’t want? Because that is what the guy who attacked me did, repeatedly, and that is what I consider a warning sign, sufficient that any guy who does it to me again, ever, is getting dropped from the list of people I’ll associate with.
If a woman does that to a man? Probably not physically dangerous, because usually he’s stronger than she is. But still not someone you’d want to be around.
If you mean that she rushes in with explanations of what she thinks you’re thinking/feeling that are wrong (thinks you’re mad at her when you just want to unwind with a computer game or whatever), but she’s willing to be set straight that she’s made a mistake, that’s a different matter. But it has to be possible to say no about things and be taken at your word. If a guy doesn’t listen to your no about small things, he may ignore your no about bigger things.
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Lynn said:
“But it has to be possible to say no about things and be taken at your word. If a guy doesn’t listen to your no about small things, he may ignore your no about bigger things.”
Right.
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Glad to see you always in form, cheri.
Utter brilliance. Will definitely be linking it soon.
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@ Ankhesen: Thank you
@ Thad:
It is pointless to keep talking to someone who seems determined to misunderstand me. You are too literate to be making these mistakes honestly. I am not THAT bad at getting my point across.
Either you are reading and writing comments too quickly – in which case you need to slow down – or you do not WANT to understand, in which case nothing I say will make a difference.
If I am being too hard on you then other commenters can set me straight.
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J said:
“However, ironically I think some of the traits 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
can be applied to others here apart from No_Slappz
he he he”
I think that is because at least some of these apply to racists too. Particularly the bits about lack of empathy, broken moral thinking, belittling, self-centredness, threatening language, not taking what you say seriously and trouble with anger.
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With regard to
“Yes, I would agree, any man can conceivably commit rape including ex/current boyfriends and husbands, but from anecdotal stories.
I get the IMPRESSION that the MAJORITY (but not by any means the vast majority…) of acquaintance rapes are committed by men who are not that familiar to the women.
In contrast from what I have heard the opposite holds true for female victims who are under age”.
How do you know if the ‘anecdotal evidence’ is not also part of the ‘rape myths’, and also sustaining and maintaining them??
What is worrying from a ‘rape myth’ perspective is that
it gives the impression that the majority of acquaintance rape is by a ‘distant friend’. So a woman does not have to worry about ‘good friends’
And as is stated in the Rape Myths per se link I sent this is very, very dangerous to women, because it puts individual lives at danger
Just like the idea or message that all or the majority of Black men are rapist and therefore women can then feel comfortable in the presence of a White male only
another ‘rape myth’
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@ #9: alcohol only brings out the truth as they saw. another one i would add is if he is obessed with you and thinks he can’t live w/out you…
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abagond,
Inasmuch as this is an internet site, which makes it impossible for posters to have face-to-face encounters, the only traits on your list that are out of place with respect to attitudes and beliefs of your posters are Numbers 5, 9, and 10 — which entail actual violence and substance abuse.
However, it is possible you and/or your posters do or have engaged in violence and substance abuse in the physical world.
Anyway, those three notwithstanding, most of your posters and you display varying degrees of every other listed trait.
You most of all, a fact made obvious by the existence of this site.
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Y’know, I’m reading the doctoral thesis of my good friend Rolf de Souza, who’ll defend today. I’m on his committee. Rolf is a black activist here in Rio and one of the few guys who really study working class masculinity.
Rolf would be apalled, Abagond, by your notion that traditional male attitudes are somehow necessarily productive of rape or spousal abuse. He’d probably call this presumption a form of racism in and of itself, being that it tends to associate the forms of masculinity of poorer and darker men with the idea of backwardness.
I’m going to invite Rolf to participate in this discussion, though his English may not be the greatest. I may have to translate for him.
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@Lynn
Do they specifically tell you that you want things that you’ve explicitly said you don’t want?
All the time. Here’s one common refrain (and I’m sure other men can affirm that they’ve had similar discussions with women):
“You only did X because you don’t care one wit about me, you selfish bastard!”
Heard this very recently from a relative I love in regards to my choice to spend time at another relative’s house during a family crisis.
If a woman does that to a man? Probably not physically dangerous, because usually he’s stronger than she is. But still not someone you’d want to be around.
Perhaps. In my experience, however, as many women feel authorized to do this sort of thing as there are men who love sports.
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However, it is true that many in the field of academia do in fact argue this very ‘fact’ that:
‘traditional male attitudes are somehow necessarily productive of rape or spousal abuse’.
Whether one agrees with the argument is a different matter – but nevertheless the theory should be assessed accordingly. Since after all this is how academia works
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It is pointless to keep talking to someone who seems determined to misunderstand me. You are too literate to be making these mistakes honestly. I am not THAT bad at getting my point across.
Abagond, I understood you: you believe that the characteristics you list are wrning signs for rapists.
I get that you’re not saying everyone who has these signs is a rapist. You still, however, think that there must be some sort of linkage between these characteristics and rape, or you wouldn’t have made the list in the first place.
Now, would you say that’s a fair characterization of your point, or am I missing something there?
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However, it is true that many in the field of academia do in fact argue this very ‘fact’ that:
‘traditional male attitudes are somehow necessarily productive of rape or spousal abuse’.
J, I understand that you’re using “many” and not saying “all”. I’d have to say, though, that this isn’t even close to a consensus opinion among those academics WHO IN FACT STUDY MASCULINITY. As time has gone by, this position has become more and more minoritarian, precisely because people are unhappy with the ethnocentric and class presumptions that it contains.
I’d say that if you were to make that statement among a bunch of masculinity scholars today, you’d be in for a hell of a debate and unless you should excellent data to back your point up, the dominant consensus would be that you were radically simplifying things and letting your own prejudices negatively affect your analysis.
As far as I am aware, there is NO data out there that would allow one to say that more “traditional” masculinities produce more wife beaters and rapists.
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Thanks!!
I think there are lots of reserach and perspectives but you will find it more on the ‘Women Studies’ side.
The argument briefly speaking suggest the ‘attitude’ and/or ‘violence’ against women stems from a male dominated society and how such a society constructs the family, and the woman’s role therein and a host of other related issues
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The argument briefly speaking suggest the ‘attitude’ and/or ‘violence’ against women stems from a male dominated society and how such a society constructs the family, and the woman’s role therein and a host of other related issues.
Oh, I agree with that, as far as it goes. What I disagree with is the notion that traditional values produce more rapists or wife beaters. Most of the violence that women’s studies people talk about is our old friend “structural violence”. If they had to reduce their field of analysis to rape, specifically, they’d have a very hard time showing a causal link between that and traditional male values.
The number of rape victims hasn’t noticeably declined as masculinity has changed to be less traditional, you know.
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Well its good that we came to some sort of consensus.
Just two things:
1. We will never be able to establish a ‘causal’ link
2. I think the theories suggests that its males (ie attitude, construction of society etc|) that helps to bring about rape. At what point one refers to and chooses to introduce ‘masculinity’ will be determined by the researchers.
However, there are some that suggest that the construction of ‘masculinity’ is also a problem.
…if you follow.
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To J:
What is worrying from a ‘rape myth’ perspective is that
it gives the impression that the majority of acquaintance rape is by a ‘distant friend’.
Yes, that’s what I believe although I wouldn’t call them distant friend… dates, neighbors, co-workers, casual acquaintances, etc.
So a woman does not have to worry about ‘good friends’
No, this is poor logic. Having a majority of one population fall into a category does not mean the minority of a population can not also fall into that category.
How do you know if the ‘anecdotal evidence’ is not also part of the ‘rape myths’, and also sustaining and maintaining them??
As I said I thought the rape myths list was a little simplistic and had one or two myths of it’s own but would still be quite relevant for certain audiences. As for anecdotal evidence that includes knowing two women who worked as rape counselors and hearing their stories so perhaps a bit broader than the main populace.
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Uncle Milton, did you read the essay link on Rape Myths???
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Not to worry…
For the purpose of this discussion, acquaintance rape is defined as nonconsensual sex between adults who know each other. Child sexual abuse will be excluded, because the situations and dynamics surrounding the sexual abuse of children are very different than those of adult sexual assault. The word acquaintance refers to anyone who is known to the survivor, anyone who is not a stranger.
This definition includes a large range of relationships:
nonromantic acquaintance (ie. co-worker, neighbor)
platonic friendship
casual date
steady date (ie. boyfriend, lover)
family member (ie. husband, father, brother)
http://lmsurratt.tripod.com/section3.htm
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I’ve witnessed many of these behaviors in different classes and races of men. I’ve experienced some of these behaviors from at least two men that i dated–two men of different races.
No item in that list is a traditional male value. Most are more like values of males who are routinely dismissive of women.
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Ta-Nehisi Coates is doing some excellent posting in honor of Confederate History Month. He’ll be doing this the entire month of April.
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/04/honoring-chm-one-drop/38952/
Abagond, I apologize for the hijack.
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To J:
Uncle Milton, did you read the essay link on Rape Myths???
I thought I had looked at all of you links.. which one was it..?
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With regard to:
“Here’s a rape myths listed above that I believe to be a myth:
“Myth: Women fantasize about being raped.
Fact: No woman fantasizes about being raped. Fantasies about aggressive sex may be controlled and turned off if they become threatening. In rape, the victim is unable to control the violence and stop it.”
I believe I understand why it is placed amongst the other myths… this list is not really nuanced and it’s target audience sound like High Schoolers and College students and the less educated about human sexuality.
I would say yes, women do not want to be raped.. but like or not rape fantasies are very common among women (and men…) according to Master’s and Johnson, Kensey, and a number of other researchers. (And from some women I have known in my life…)”
Sorry I just saw this.
Just briefly it is all to do with a ‘problem and understanding of language’.
Rape by its very nature is characterised by ‘lack of control’ on the female part
However a ‘fantasy involving rape’ is one where the woman is in full control whether in her own mind (ie individually), and/or if she is acting out a scene with a partner she trust/loves.
I am afraid the conflation of the two phenomena ie ‘fantasy involving rape’ and ‘rape’ is the ‘rape myth’ that women asked and liked to be raped (irrespective whether women have fantasies that do involve a ‘rape scene’, or perhaps a better term might be ‘aggressive sex’ as taken from the link).
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To J:
However a ‘fantasy involving rape’ is one where the woman is in full control whether in her own mind (ie individually), and/or if she is acting out a scene with a partner she trust/loves.
Yes I know.. but in my opinion the part about “women do not fantasize about being raped” should have been left off the list of rape myths.
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To J:
Uncle Milton, did you read the essay link on Rape Myths???
Do you mean the one below..?
http://lmsurratt.tripod.com/section3.htm
Yes, the data presented above conflicts with the data from the DOJ, specifically the part about how many rapists are known to their victims. The DOJ surveys claim twice the rate of stranger rapes than the link above. The link above is from one year (versus more than 20 years for the DOJ..) and a sample that is 1/20th the size of the DOJ. Hence I will take the DOJs data over the survey above. What else would you like to discuss from the essay above..?
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Yes I know.. but in my opinion the part about “women do not fantasize about being raped” should have been left off the list of rape myths.
Well, I wouldn’t leave it off; the distinction between the “rape” in “rape fantasy” and what an actual rape is like may be important to get across to people who don’t fully get the business about rape being power and violence rather than sex. Maybe differently worded?
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@ Thad:
Your comments made me go read the post again, but the more I read it the more I wonder if you have kinda missed the point.
I agree the last two paragraphs are probably overly dramatic. To imply that the type of person described is probably a rapist or otherwise dangerous, might be going to far, and I think it could have been better worded in that sense.
But I’m a bit surprised that you are very keen to defend the 11 characteristics as being typical guy stuff, or facets of working class masculinity.
Generally speaking the 11 characteristics are just as possible in any social class or group. Yes, they are more prominent in males than females, but none of them are particularly desirable.
I don’t think anyone is claiming that a guy who likes a drink and is keen on sports is therefore likely to be a rapist.
Most of us might display occasional tendencies to a few of those characteristics, but if a man strongly and consistently displayed most of them, he would certainly not be the kind of character a sensible person would wish to associate with. He would also fit the profile of the kind of person who is most likely to commit rape. Which doesn’t mean he would actually do it, of course.
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With regard to:
Well, I wouldn’t leave it off; the distinction between the “rape” in “rape fantasy” and what an actual rape is like may be important to get across to people who don’t fully get the business about rape being power and violence rather than sex. Maybe differently worded?
Personally I do not think it needs re-wording. It is very clear.
However, ‘we men’ have a very dificult time understanding the perspectives surrounding the issue of a rape in an authentic, and all encompassing way.
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This is the link I am referring to Uncle Milton about ‘Rape Myths’ per se and how they help to confound the issue and can also in fact put womens’ lives at risk also through the perpetuation of false beliefs etc
Click to access RapeMyths0507.pdf
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I think the theories suggests that its males (ie attitude, construction of society etc|) that helps to bring about rape. At what point one refers to and chooses to introduce ‘masculinity’ will be determined by the researchers.
Well, here’s the problem: most “traditional” masculinities are very clear on the need to protect women and children. I’m not defending traditional masculinity, mind, but I think the problem is more deeply rooted than the word “traditional” can deal with. I think there’s a problem with masculinity in general.
But I’m a bit surprised that you are very keen to defend the 11 characteristics as being typical guy stuff, or facets of working class masculinity.
Not all 11, Eurasian. I was very specific: 1,2,8 and 10 jump right out and perhaps a few more. So at least a third of the list is, to me, simply “characteristics of men and working-class men in particular”.
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Very nice that CHM piece in The Atlantic, btw.
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With regard to:
Well, here’s the problem: most “traditional” masculinities are very clear on the need to protect women and children. I’m not defending traditional masculinity, mind, but I think the problem is more deeply rooted than the word “traditional” can deal with. I think there’s a problem with masculinity in general
I understand what you are suggesting here, but at what point was ‘traditional’ brought into the discussion
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Personally I do not think it needs re-wording. It is very clear.
I find it pretty clear, myself, as well, but if Uncle Milton finds it unclear I’d be open to suggestion on how it might be worded better. Maybe you’re right, and it’s fine as it is. What I’m sure of is that it doesn’t need to be dropped, that they’re making a point in that item that in fact is true.
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@ Thad:
I’m struggling to see any of those things as being particularly working class, to be honest.
I guess each one needs to be looked at as a matter of degree. We are all self-centered to a degree, and belittling others is also very common, to a degree. And there’s nothing wrong with that, but beyond a certain point both become problems.
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Personally Lynn,
I think Uncle Milton is having problems grasping the concepts – and as I said it can be ‘difficult’
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I’m struggling to see any of those things as being particularly working class, to be honest.
A devotion to sports is pretty working class. Sports is the working man’s opiate. Note “devotion” here – not simple enjoyment of.
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A devotion to sports is also pretty college-age male, regardless of class. Though you could probably make a case for middle class/upper-middle class college males, since those are the ones who can afford season tickets and all that. I go to a huge football school, so there you go.
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I don’t think 1 and 2 are either particularly working class or particularly male, Thad; in my experience upper class women can belittle just as well as anyone.
As for 8, I think the question is what’s meant by “jock mindset.”
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The one thing I have to say about Thad’s comments is that I know men from Brazil and most Mediterranean countries are much more open and demanding sexually. My friend lived in Italy, and he said men would stand in the street asking strange women to go back to their room with them, when the women said no, my friend said these men would follow the women and continue to ask them for “favors.” Not excepting no for an answer, he said he saw this daily in Italy.
The women would say “no” and the men would say “ah come on baby you know you want it,” and bizarrely enough it would work sometimes and the women would give him her number, or they would go off together. My friend said if you want to get a women in Italy you have to be extremely foreword, almost to the point Americans would view it as harassment. I have heard Brazil is similar.
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My point is to an American women this list may look like rape signs, but to a Mediterranean women many of these would probably be considered normal. Except numbers 4, 5, and 6, I think those are universally bad signs in a man.
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I have to agree with Ó Dochartaigh with Italy. Several men approached me and my friends when we were in Venice. They all asked us for names, numbers, whether we want them to visit us later etc etc. And we were just kids! (I was 17 but looked younger).
We thought that’s the way they approach female tourists, but maybe it’s an everyday thing for Italian women.
However, I must say none of those people seemed threatening or violent. None of them had a horny look on their face or something- they all seemed like they were joking or having fun, like it’s a random thing they are used to, and not a serious matter. So I understood that as a cultural thing.
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The only ‘problem’ and it is occasionally reported in the British press that British women who are on holiday overseas who do give their number, and/or meet with the type of males you are describing, depending on the type of environment (ie an isolated place) are in fact ‘compromising’ their safety. The stories relate specifically to the Greek isles (ie Mediterranean)
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To J:
I think Uncle Milton is having problems grasping the concepts – and as I said it can be ‘difficult’
No, it’s quite simple, I disagree with the presentation. I can go over it again but it appears you want to be argumentative which I find boring.
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With regard to:
“No, it’s quite simple, I disagree with the presentation. I can go over it again but it appears you want to be argumentative which I find boring”.
How and why do you come to the conclusion that I wish to be ARGUMENTATIVE. On the contrary, this is a chatboard where we are in dialogue discussing the ‘facts’.
If you as a male want to disagree with one of the ‘rape myth’s then you are entirely free to do so. However, it is NOT appropriate to use me as the pretext to justify your own attitudes etc.
You should just be honest enough to come forward with what is your attitudes, irrespective of the implications.
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The scary thing is that there is no warning signs.
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I am not sure about that Hereinth…
I think the signs are there – but when we are caught up on a romantic date, or someone paying us attention, we choose , or more perhaps accurately we cannot take things on board…
if you follow
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And why do I say this??
…Since when you hear females who suffer domestic violence, this is what they often say retrospectively
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When you start dating someone, you usually put your best foot forward. I would presume that in most cases, so would the other person. If that other person exhibits any or all of the traits listed here or on other sites, most women would not consider dating them from the get go. In an acquaintance rape for example, more often than not, the victim never saw this coming as they thought the person was nice or didn’t even think of them as other than an acquaintance. The date rapist will rape early on in the relationship before the woman gets to really know them. As for abusive relationships, there are many signs at the outset of the relationship and control issues. In that respect, I agree with you in regards to abusers. The more insidious ones wait until the relationship is in full throttle until they get progressively abusive to the point of violence. So in that sense some of the above traits can be applied to abusers, however, anyone can rape or sexually abuse people. Unless you are talking about serial rapists or sex offenders, there is no profile that can serve as warning signs. I blame society for ascribing roles to women that denude them of their autonomy and esteem when it comes to choosing a paramour. Many suffer from this in the romance department especially.
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With regard to:
“Unless you are talking about serial rapists or sex offenders, there is no profile that can serve as warning signs (for rape)”.
Agreed – With ‘intuition’, an understanding of the ‘factors’ of rape/rape myths, also good interpersonal skill perceptions (like observing some of the attributes listed above) etc.
Then females should at least be in a better position – I think this is the best we can strive for in this situation…
if you follow
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With regard to:
“The date rapist will rape early on in the relationship before the woman gets to really know them!”.
In one of the links it seems as if date rape can occur at
anytime along the continuum of the first date to several dates afterwards.
The link also suggested some men will not attempt to commit ‘date rape’ on a first date but will rather choose later on. The logic being it would be too ‘obvious’ to do so on the first date….
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Agreed – With ‘intuition’, an understanding of the ‘factors’ of rape/rape myths, also good interpersonal skill perceptions (like observing some of the attributes listed above) etc.
Exactly. Observe a potential date in social situations. Meet at a public place. If you have any acquaintances in common, observe their regard for this person. If another woman, or women who have dated this person before warn you of abusive behaviour, listen, don’t always put it down to a woman scorned. If you drink alcohol, don’t as alcohol is the number one rape drug.(they can claim drunkenness). Although many measures will not bring the down rape statistics to zero, at least arm yourself against the potentiality of it. As iterated elsewhere, date and acquaintance rape are the most prevalent. I do know a woman who was raped by a stranger and she still feels its effects in the form of PTS twenty years later.
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Jasmin sez:
A devotion to sports is also pretty college-age male, regardless of class.
Most college-aged males are working class. I’m using the Marxist definition here.
My friend said if you want to get a women in Italy you have to be extremely foreword, almost to the point Americans would view it as harassment. I have heard Brazil is similar.
Forward and flirtatious is one thing. Not taking “no” for an answer is another. Although both Brazilian sexes seem to think that stalking is romantic.
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With regard to:
“Forward and flirtatious is one thing. Not taking “no” for an answer is another. Although both Brazilian sexes seem to think that stalking is romantic.
and in particular to the last sentence.
At what point Thad, does the ‘stalking’ become ‘harassment’ and NOT ‘romance’, if at all in Brazil??
Cheers!!
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Regarding cultural (South American/Mediterranean) norms where behaviour that could be seen as harassing can be seen as normal romantic flirtation…
A Ugandan friend told me about an apparent cultural norm of women “saying no when they mean yes.” By which he meant, a woman who seems too keen for sex can be regarded as “easy”, and so is expected to play hard to get to a certain extent. So a man who takes no for an answer straight away might be seen as unmanly.
I have no idea how strong or widespread this cultural expectation is; I’m sure its not universal in Uganda or Africa. And there are certainly many Westerners who have similar mentalities.
I’m reminded of the classic old song “Baby It’s Cold Outside” – a man persistently trying to convince a woman to stay (and presumably get it on) when she says she wants to go. The implication is that she is putting up token resistance which the man can overcome through being persistent. This is a common enough idea – that a woman is just playing hard to get, but who really wants it, and just needs to be “convinced”.
I guess the important thing is that both male and female understand when it is a “game” being played; otherwise there is potentially a lot of risk involved.
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And there are certainly many Westerners who have similar mentalities.
As my grandmother said; “A woman can run faster with her skirt up, than a man can with his pants down” People have made fortunes writing books based upon the ‘hard to get’ way of getting a man. There haven’t been many written on how to keep him once you ‘got him’ though. Lucky for me my man friends only want to hold hands!
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I’m reminded of the classic old song “Baby It’s Cold Outside” – a man persistently trying to convince a woman to stay (and presumably get it on) when she says she wants to go. The implication is that she is putting up token resistance which the man can overcome through being persistent. This is a common enough idea – that a woman is just playing hard to get, but who really wants it, and just needs to be “convinced”.
Then again, I’ve heard that song sung with the MAN saying he has to go and the woman telling him to stay.
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@ Thad:
“Then again, I’ve heard that song sung with the MAN saying he has to go and the woman telling him to stay.”
Sure. But given the way our species tends to define its gender roles and expectations – man pursues woman – that would be unusual. You’d have to imagine that the song was written with the man in the pursuer role.
Also if a woman is trying to convince a man to stay, it would surely be through her feminine wiles alone, with no suggestion of coercion. The man could no doubt just leave if he really wanted to, with no sense of intimidation or violence. Unfortunately when men pursue women, there can indeed be that more sinister side to the “persuasion”.
Obviously there is no hint of violence in the song. I’m just pointing out how entrenched the idea of the “horny man seduces innocent uncertain woman” is in popular culture. And also how male behaviour towards women often occurs in an entirely different power context to female behaviour towards men.
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Sure. But given the way our species tends to define its gender roles and expectations – man pursues woman – that would be unusual. You’d have to imagine that the song was written with the man in the pursuer role.
Not at all! Women pursue men, they just tend to do it more subtly and “Baby it’s cold outside” is an excellent example of how women do indeed pursue. Male sexual aggression is generally straight up and in your face. Female sexual aggression is more generally along the lines of the woman placing herself where you have to trip over her.
Repeatedly.
So I see “BiCO” as being applicable to both sexes and I think that’s the reason I’ve heard it sung in every sexual combination imaginable (including woman/woman and man/man). It’s a very human sexual song about seducing someone who wants to be seduced but also thinks they have resposabilities elsewhere.
Also if a woman is trying to convince a man to stay, it would surely be through her feminine wiles alone, with no suggestion of coercion.
I’m not sure I see the hint of coercion in that song. ES. Where are you seeing it?
Also, “feminine wiles”? You should ask B.R. and CoLuv to give you a short course in Braziolian sympathetic love magic someday. Women are notoriously not beyond using coercion when it comes to love – it’s just not likely to be physical coercion (which isn’t part of the song, in any case).
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@ Thad,
I didn’t mean the song suggests coercion; there is an implication that the female protagonist wants to stay, despite saying she has to go.
Look at it from a different perspective however, and you might wonder – how many times and different ways does she have to say no before he quits trying to seduce her?
BiCO describes a game of seduction. And when both players understand that they are engaging in that game, that’s fine. Unfortunately, our world is filled with people who are not so good at reading such a situation. People (and it’s mostly men) who see resistance as meaning “I just need to try harder” instead of “get lost”.
I know women can be sexually aggressive as you say, but that’s not really relevant to this discussion IMO. Because female sexual aggression, generally speaking, poses no threat to men.
(Btw, ever heard the Dave Chappelle standup routine about when he shows a Pepe Le Pew cartoon to his nephew, then realises with horror that when viewed through a slightly different lens, Pepe is basically a rapist?)
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Btw, the following may sound like me big-noting myself, but really I’m just trying to provide some context, because this discussion is actually within my field of professional expertise. (Take that for whatever you think it’s worth.)
I work as a community educator in the fields of sexual assault and male family violence, and I present to thousands of people (mostly high school students) every year about these issues. So I have pretty definite views about male sexual behaviour, power differential between men and women, and the facets of male culture that subtly encourage rape.
So understand that I’m not just talking shit here off the top of my head; I actually live and breathe this stuff.
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Look at it from a different perspective however, and you might wonder – how many times and different ways does she have to say no before he quits trying to seduce her?
Once. All s/he has to do is simply get up and leave. The person being seduced is in total control in that song. There’s no coercion involved and if the seducer keeps on insisting it is obviously because the seduced seems to want to be talked into it.
Because female sexual aggression, generally speaking, poses no threat to men.
Oh, really? ES, how old are you again? 🙂 You seem to be thinking only in physical terms when you think “threat”, and that, to me, is a young person talking there.
I work as a community educator in the fields of sexual assault and male family violence, and I present to thousands of people (mostly high school students) every year about these issues.
And you apparently haven’t seriously thought about the sexual games half the human species plays. Seriously, ES, I think that you need to sit down and think about this a bit.
So I have pretty definite views about male sexual behaviour, power differential between men and women, and the facets of male culture that subtly encourage rape.
I’m an anthropologist who studies sexual tourism and prostitution. I USED to have pretty definite views about male sexual behavior. Now I’m not so sure. But It hink it’s safe for you to assume I live and breathe this stuff, too.
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@ Thad, you are misreading my point about BiCO. I’ll repeat it in case I wasn’t clear the first time.
“And you apparently haven’t seriously thought about the sexual games half the human species plays. Seriously, ES, I think that you need to sit down and think about this a bit.”
Games are fine, as long as everyone knows they are playing a game and understands the rules.
What makes the song’s lyrics about romantic seduction and not coercion is that it is evident that despite offering “token resistance”, the woman does want to stay and be seduced. So that’s fine.
What I was trying to say is that it illustrates a theme that is problematic when the man misreads the signals. (And let’s face it, men are not always great at reading women.) And particularly when the man has a controlling mindset and/or sees sex (rather than intimacy) as the goal.
As you say correctly, the woman in the song is in control. Replace her with a woman who has trouble being assertive (due to maturity, cultural reasons, whatever), or who is intoxicated, or who feels uncomfortable at the direction the encounter is heading and is trying to extricate herself from this situation non-confrontationally.
Because that happens in real-life situations. Everyday women come to the service I work for and seek counselling for date rape. And everyday I see the young men I talk with express attitudes that, in the right set of circumstances, could possibly lead to date rape.
For example:
“If she didn’t want to have sex, why did she invite him to come in?”
“She’s dressed like a slut, what was he supposed to think?”
“If she was going to get drunk like that, what did she expect?”
You said: ‘You seem to be thinking only in physical terms when you think “threat”, and that, to me, is a young person talking there.’
I’m old enough, and experienced enough. Since we are on a thread about rape, whatever other threats you are alluding to are not so pertinent. Statistically, female sexual coercion of men (as opposed to seduction) does not happen to any meaningful degree. Male sexual coercion of women does, all the time.
Remember also that many people, particularly young people, find it too uncomfortable to communicate with a prospective partner about sex, and therefore a lot of assumptions take place. And remember that in the absence of communication, many young men’s assumptions are based on what they see in the movies, in porn, and what they hear their male friends say.
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What makes the song’s lyrics about romantic seduction and not coercion is that it is evident that despite offering “token resistance”, the woman does want to stay and be seduced. So that’s fine.
And given this, the song shouldn’t be disturbing at all.
The two are communicating. They understand what’s going on.
Replace her with a woman who has trouble being assertive (due to maturity, cultural reasons, whatever), or who is intoxicated, or who feels uncomfortable at the direction the encounter is heading and is trying to extricate herself from this situation non-confrontationally.
Have you ever read Camille Paglia on date rape, ES?
Since we are on a thread about rape, whatever other threats you are alluding to are not so pertinent.
Perhaps not. Still, three prostitutes’ clients were killed here in Rio last year. I’m not a big believer in the concept that women are generally incapable of violence.
Statistically, female sexual coercion of men (as opposed to seduction) does not happen to any meaningful degree.
The problem here, ES, is that you are a social worker and I’m a social scientist. Things are cut and dried to you. But what is “coercion”? “Seduction”? Are you sure we have nice, clean, distinct definitions of these things which don’t involve a sexual double standard? I’m not. If you have them, I’d like to hear them.
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No I haven’t read Paglia. Anything in particular you wish to bring to my attention?
“I’m not a big believer in the concept that women are generally incapable of violence.
The problem here, ES, is that you are a social worker and I’m a social scientist. Things are cut and dried to you.”
I’m actually not a cut and dried person at all. I had a lot of sympathy for you when you were being attacked on another post about consent between slave and master. I definitely agree that there can be a lot of grey, and the line between consensual and non-consensual can sometimes get fuzzy.
Unlike many radical feminists I don’t subscribe to the implication that women are all powerless and the eternal victims of male sexual hegemony. But I also figure you’d understand that the expectation that every woman in every situation just says “no” and then everything will work out fine, is too simplistic.
And of course I’m not saying women are incapable of violence. But comparing women’s violence to men’s is like comparing, let’s say, Malawian racism to white American racism. One is far less significant due to scope and power context.
‘But what is “coercion”? “Seduction”? Are you sure we have nice, clean, distinct definitions of these things which don’t involve a sexual double standard?’
Again, there can be a blur between these things. But generally speaking, a person being seduced still has a free choice to go along with it. A coerced person goes along with it because they feel intimidated or that they do not have a choice.
And while we are on definitions, when someone is being “convinced” to agree participate in sexual activity that they don’t really want to do, at what point does that become non-consensual? Consider power relationships here, particularly in the context of a patriarchal culture or abusive relationship.
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Consider power relationships here, particularly in the context of a patriarchal culture or abusive relationship.
Well, there’s a problem with that concept “patriarchical culture”: to wit, it simply doesn’t exist – at least not in any social-scientific sense. When anthros speak of “patriarchy”, we mean kinship being traced through male descent. The typical feminist view of “patriarchy” seems to lump everything from the U.S. on over to revolutionary Iran under that one heading. So when you ask me to consider power relationships in a patriarchal culture, what are we presuming, exactly?
“Patriarchical culture”, “abusive relationship” and “self-esteem” are terms that get flung about quite a bit, but what do they mean? As near as I can figure, they are window dressing for preconcieved judgement: someone has a gut, subjective sense about a given situation and pulls out these terms to justify said feeling.
I’ve spent most of my adult life living in western universities. I agree with Paglia that the moral panic over date rape is often used to cover sexual situations that are embarassing or unpleasant but are far from rape. It’s a quite interesting fact that most university campuses which are said to be suffering from an “epidemic” of date rape rarely have any rapes reported at all – outside of the campus rape crisis center, that is. Why? Because very, very few of these so-called rapes could ever be anything like proven in a court of law.
The problem is that we have a culture – label it patriarchical if you will – that teaches women that sex is bad unless it occurs in the context of a stable, loving relationship. Men, on the other hand, are taught that sex is good in general. When young people who are just learning about their sexuality start drinking, these two views often collide and they often result in bad, unpleasant and embarassing sexual situations which are nevertheless not rape.
Here’s a situation I dealt with recently:
A young woman went to a young male friend’s dorm at 4AM. She was drunk and showed up unannounced. According to the man’s roomate, she jumped into his bed and started kissing and hugging him. The roomate, who needed to study, left. 5 days later, the woman was in the campus rape crisis center alleging date rape. The man was called in and claimed that while they had “fooled around”, no sex had occurred because the woman was too drunk.
He was called a potential rapist by the councillor and basically read the riot act. Now I say “man”, but this was an 18 year old boy away from home for the first time in his life. If HE had gotten wasted and, say, shown up at a gay bar and made out with someone on his own call, then couldn’t remember the next day if he had had sex with the man, he wouldn’t have gotten even a nod of sympathy from the same councilor. In fact, I lay odds, knowing the councilor, that she would have found the whole situation hilarious.
There’s a basic problem with your understanding of gender, btw, when you compare it to race. It’s what I call “the Marxist fallacy”. Much of our thought about oppression and how it works actually originates in Marx (whether we’re aware of this or not). We tend to adopt a “class antagonism” model of social conflict which sees the world split into binary categories of oppressed and oppressor. Such a system works (more or less) in Marxist economics and the best that can be said about it there is that at least Marx wrote thousands of pages clearly laying out his understandings and definitions.
Since the early 20th century this model has also been applied to race relations – less successfully so, but still more-or-less accurately. From the 1960s on, however, mainstream feminism has also assimilated this model and there everything goes off the tracks.
Men and women are not two antagonistic classes, for all that they may sometimes seem that way, and one certainly can’t split them into “oppressed” and “oppressor” classes. Throughout the western world, women make less than men for equal work. This is without a doubt the result of unequal gender roles. And yet also throughout the western world, men live several years less, on average, than women. This, too, is the result of unequal gender roles. Furthermore, bourgeois kids are not raised by the working class, nor are whites generally taught to be white by people who aren’t white, and yet most men spend their formative years almost 100% under female tutelage.
Gender thus has some very specific constituitive characteristics which takes it out of the binary oppressed/oppressor model bequeathed to us by Marx. While sexism does indeed exist, it often bites men straight on the ass in a way that racism doesn’t bite whites or classism the bourgeoisie.
I agree that if we take a narrow view of violence, most inter-gender violence is committed by men against women. But violence can also be emotional. Aggression takes many forms. I think the young man I describe above was indeed violated – not by the woman, but by the authority figure at the rape crisis center who applied a sexual double standard to his behavior.
It’s also worth remembering that while men are in general the most physically violent sex, they are also far and away the sex which most SUFFERS from physical and psychic violence. Violence towards men is completely naturalized to the point where it’s almost unseen.
Want a great example? Male on male rape is largely treated as a joke in the U.S. and Brazil, though it has truly and provably reached epidemic proportions in prisons and other all-male environments in a way that date rape hasn’t.
Returning to the original point of the article, I find it disturbing that typical male (and even female traits) are being taught to folks as “warning signs of a rapist”. I think that there are some very hard-core unexamined prejudices at work here when drinking and sports – not to mention self-centeredness and belittling, which as you have pointed out are not male-specific traits -show up on this list as “danger signs”.
This seems to me to be an irresponsible sort of “pop-sociology” that draws its impetus not from any understanding of social life as it’s lived, but from moral prejudices and fearmongering.
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Thad, my parallel of gender and race was something I threw out quickly to make a point, not part of a grand theory I have constructed. Don’t get too preoccupied with dissecting it. The point is that female violence is far less significant because (a) women are on average less violent than men, (b) female culture does not promote violence in the way that male culture does, and (c) males are more dominant in society in many ways. On a micro level, women can be violent, destructive and all that. But in terms of the bigger picture, crying “but women do it too” is like a white Republican in the US complaining about the racism in Bhutan.
The story you describe sounds very sad. Of course, my first thought was to counter with another story that I have dealt with, but then I would just be turning it into a pissing contest.
So regarding your problems with the original post… so how would you put it then? Can you say for a fact that rapists do not typically display these characteristics?
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Thad, my parallel of gender and race was something I threw out quickly to make a point, not part of a grand theory I have constructed.
Understood. Still, all the more reason to be wary of it, eh? In anthropology we call that “common sense thinking”. When you rip a social theory off the top of your head “common sensically”, it tends to tell you pretty precisely where your unexamined prejudices lie. Frankly, I’d be happier if it were a “grand theory”.
The point is that female violence is far less significant because (a) women are on average less violent than men….
First of all, we don’t have a “violence-o-meter”, so this is an unsupported statement. It is only true if we define “violence” as physical, legally-actionable acts and then the theory becomes a bit tautological: “Define violence to include only those forms that men mostly perform while ignoring those forms that women specialize in and you will quite clearly see male violence is more significant”.
Tautology.
I wouldn’t be so worried about this point if it weren’t for the fact that in every other instance of violence in which women are the victims, the typical female-supportive definition of “violence” quickly kites off into the ethereal, sublime and even ridiculous. Our new anti-battering law here in Brazil even considers “harsh words” to be a form of violence – as long as they are directed by a male to a female.
So here we have the old double standard again: physical battery is exclusively defined as violence when it comes to adjuding male responsibility for same in the statistical sense, yet in EVERY OTHER field of male-female interrelation, the concept of violence is expanded to included “symbolic”, “structural” and even “implied” violence.
So two weights and two measures there, counselor. And I submit to you that if we use the pop, all-inclusive notion of violence currently promulgated by the anti-porn, anti-rape and anti-violence-against-women movements to take a good, long, hard look at WOMEN’S behavior, we’d quickly discover that the “violence” scales aren’t quite so heavily skewed in the male’s favor. Women are VERY good at symbolic violence.
(b) female culture does not promote violence in the way that male culture does, and….
Oh, really? What, exactly, is “female culture” here? You’ve apparently never dealt with young female family members who are on the outs with the “in group” at school. Again, what you mean to say here is “physical violence” and it’s not “female culture” that doesn’t promote it, but the self-same “patriarchical culture” you were decrying above. Men and women don’t tell little girls not hit because it’s wrong: they tell them not to do it because “it’s not ladylike”. So little girls quickly learn that aggression needs to be displayed via other means. This isn’t “female culture”: this is our every-day, regular brand of culture which certain feminist scholars label “patriarchical”.
None of the stuff I’m presenting here is radical, by the way: this is straight-up bleeding edge research by people who claim to be feminists.
(c) males are more dominant in society in many ways.
Oh, agreed. But I can think of several social roles and circles where men aren’t dominant, including homelife, primary education and child care – so who’s helping teach men to be violent, exactly?
But in terms of the bigger picture, crying “but women do it too” is like a white Republican in the US complaining about the racism in Bhutan.
No, it isn’t. This is a silly metaphor for the reasons I described above. Race and gender are not interchangeable propositions where one can swap about identitary terms and make the same points.
White Republicans have no responsability for Bhutan. They certainly did not help to raise the population of that nation. Women raise men. If men are, indeed, taught to be violent and dominant, it is almost certainly at least part due to female training.
Now note that “at least part”: I’m not blaming women for all (or even most) of men’s attitudes. Women, however, play a major role in formulating them. The gender model certainly is not dividable into clear-cut oppressor/oppressed spheres along marxist lines, which is what you seem to imply with your metaphors about responsability for racism.
Republicans do indeed have some responsability for racism in the U.S., but not in Bhutan, so it’s ethically illogical for them to worry about Bhutan while ignoring home. Men are not solely responsible for the creation and maintenance of masculinity and, in many instances, masculinity does not benefit them (you’d have to really push to explain how racism hurts white Republicans in anything other than a spiritual sense).
It is thus quite germain for men to wonder about female violence, how it’s constructed and why men, as victims of ANY sort of violence, are largely ignored and why they are stigmatized as violence’s CREATORS when they are also its primary victims.
Can you say for a fact that rapists do not typically display these characteristics?
Can you say for a fact that eating tomatoes doesn’t cause men to rape? Why not put it on that list as well? Hell, as long as we’re talking about “not proving” instead of proving, why not rare back and excercize your imagination to the fullest extent? 😀
This is the difference between science and ideology masquerading as science, ES: science is postivist in nature and scientists know this. We prove things EXIST. We prove CAUSALITY and LINKAGE. We do not prove that things CANNOT exist, that there is no possible causality or linkage. We don’t do this because we cannot: it is logically impossible to prove a negative.
If you start saying, “Well, let’s include it because it MIGHT be that,” you are no longer playing at science but politics, religion, or morality.
I suppose you could take this as arrogance. It isn’t: it’s basic freshman philosophy of science 101. And this is why we’re at odds here, my friend: you are not a scientist, you are a social worker. You presume we have most of the cards in hand regarding gender violence when, in fact, we most certainly do not.
I’m not criticizing you or your work, btw ES: someone has to do this sort of realtime intervention and thank God it’s not me! I certainly don’t have the temprament for it!
But when you do it, man, be honest with yourself: if you’re good at what you do in social work and not simply a bench-warmer, repeating dgoma, most of the time you’re going on a wing and a prayer and hoping that your interventions don’t make a bad situation worse. Science doesn’t back up the claims above. Science cannot even objectively define what “a jock mindset” is, let alone measure it! You guys are basically making stuff up as you go along based on your empirical and subjective experience and you’re reaching for a false scientific explanation to take some of the decision-making weight off your shoulders.
If you really want to miss some sleep at night, think about this: the way you “know” about what constitutes a rapist is the same way an earlier generation “knew” what constituted a “dangerous homosexual pedophile” or “knew” that “negros all secretly lust for white women and are repressed rapists”.
This is why I’m a social scientist and not a social worker. I don’t feel anything near the strength of my convictions necessary to go out there in the world and start lining up people into “good” and “bad” categories.
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To J:
You should just be honest enough to come forward with what is your attitudes, irrespective of the implications.
I have already stated my opinion. Where would you like me to elaborate?
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@ Thad:
If you don’t like my Bhutan analogy, I could say comparing the two is like apples and oranges. Except I’d expect you might say “you can’t compare gender to fruit, it’s not backed up by scientific research.”
I think if you try to understand what I’m implying rather than getting hooked on semantics, we may get somewhere.
Are you SERIOUSLY contending that male violence is not significantly worse than female violence? Seriously, Thad?
If you are going to make me show that every statement I make can be backed up by scientific evidence, then I may as well not say anything at all.
Since the definition of violence can be nebulous as you point out, do we just accept that we have no idea? Or do we just open our eyes and use common sense? Even taking into account the types of violence/abuse that are commonly engaged in by women (psychological, social exclusion, verbal put downs, etc), men do these at least as much. And when we speak of sexual violence (since this is the discussion here), there is no contest.
If you have a problem with my term “male culture”, try “male social norms” or “male social conditioning”. Male culture encourages dominance, competitiveness, physical aggression and sexual conquest to an extent that female culture does not.
The original post by Abagond is not meant to be a scientific causal analysis. It is information that helps people stay safe. And for the most part, I think it is accurate, based on what I know. If you think it is a load of crap, then is the solution not to show any such information. Do we say “well, you can never tell whether someone is more likely to be a rapist, so just hang around with anyone you want and you’ll be fine”?
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males do tend to do more damage when they turn violent…
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its hard for a woman to rape a man when he can easily overpower her (which most times they can)
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This follows on from my dialogue in the Fanon post on ‘Psychopathology’.
Why is necessary to investigate the subject of rape from the perspective of the ‘natural sciences’ ie cause and effect, as opposed from a ‘social scientist’ perspective??
Personally I believe any such talk is helping to reduce matters into that category of ‘rape myths’.
For what it is worth, I have been in more or less total agreement with what Eurasian Sensation has had to say on the subject matter of rape.
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Uncle Milton,
On this occasion I am going to decline to offer a response to your question.
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males do tend to do more damage when they turn violent… its hard for a woman to rape a man when he can easily overpower her (which most times they can)
No doubt on those two points, Peanut.
But way more men than you probably believe are victims of sexual violence. And you know what? There’s very good evidence pointing to the fact that a large proportion of rapists were once themselves victims of sexual violence. Again, this isn’t radical stuff here, nor should it be news: criminologists have known this since the late 1970s. Your average rapíst isn’t your “typical male patriarchy supporter”: he’s generally a guy with a VERY fu$%ed up sexual and emotional make-up.
In short, in spite of what certain folklorists would have you believe, rapists do not represent “typical” males.
ES sez:
If you don’t like my Bhutan analogy, I could say comparing the two is like apples and oranges. Except I’d expect you might say “you can’t compare gender to fruit, it’s not backed up by scientific research.”
Ah, but you can quite easily compare apples and oranges. Your Bhutan analogy is a bad analogy for the reasons I brought up above: gender roles are co-created by both sexes: racism in Bhutan is not co-created by Republicans – at least as far as I know.
Are you SERIOUSLY contending that male violence is not significantly worse than female violence? Seriously, Thad?
I’ve answered that above, but obviously that answer was tl;dr for you. So here it goes again, as simple and as short as I can make it.
If we are only talking about PHYSICAL violence, then yes, I’ll go with your assertion that male violence is worse than female violence. I’ll also point out, however, that men are far more often the VICTIMS of physical violence than women.
However, if we start moving into looking at psychological, symbolic, structural and other types of violence, then I’d have to say that WE DON’T KNOW if men are significantly more violent or aggressive than women.
I hope that was clear enough.
I don’t pretend to keep abreast of all the scientific research in the world, however, ES. So perhaps you’d like to point me to some peer-reviewed solid research that shows that men globally more violent than women when we take all types of violence into consideration? I know of no such animal. Maybe you do.
I also worry about appeals to common sense on this topic, given that it’s a minefield of deeply held and unexamined gender prejudices. The kind of guy of a problem like this is also the kind of guy who, in 1950, would have probably have said “Are you SERIOUSLY contending that homosexuals are not mentally ill, Thad?” He’s operating on received wisdom and received wisdom does not have a sterling record when it comes to gender studies.
If you are going to make me show that every statement I make can be backed up by scientific evidence, then I may as well not say anything at all.
First of all, I’m not asking for ALL statements to have proof: just the central one you base your philosophy of social intervention around. I don’t think that that’s excessive.
Secondly, I’m actually not that concerned about whether or not your statements are scientific. I AM concerned when lists like the post above – which are simply receieved wisdom (a nice name for prejudice) – are touted as if they were the results of scientific research, which they aren’t.
Since the definition of violence can be nebulous as you point out, do we just accept that we have no idea? Or do we just open our eyes and use common sense?
Good questions. The answer, to me, is that if you do feel compelled to take a stance based on your personal prejudices (i.e. common sense), that you least be honest enough to take responsability for that stance as a personal one and not try to naturalize it as the only possible one by pointing to spurious studies and shaky scientific research.
Even taking into account the types of violence/abuse that are commonly engaged in by women (psychological, social exclusion, verbal put downs, etc), men do these at least as much.
And here’s the problem: violent rape and even wife beating is not a common, everyday activity. Not all men – not even the majority – do it and those that do rarely do it every day. But the kind of symbolic violence you’re talking about here IS common and IS an everyday activity. And here you are, admitting that women engage in this quite a bit. So all of sudden, the men are way more violent than women” hypothesis seems to have hit a snag.
Should the State be as concerned about bullying or put downs as it is about rape? I think that we can both agree that it probably shouldn’t. But when you say – as you’ve said above – that “female violence is not significant”, you’re handwaving away what IS in fact the most commonly encountered sort of violent and aggressive behavior. You’re naturalizing it as no big deal, non-existant in fact. And that’s disturbing to me, ESPECIALLY when many of the pro-woman activists who do this sort of thing immediately try to recover all thaty violence as violence when women become the victims of it.
If you have a problem with my term “male culture”, try “male social norms” or “male social conditioning”.
Those three concepts are not at all synonymous and the choice of one over another means a significant change in your view of why male violence exists and how it should be fought. This isn’t a trivial issue, ES: it’s a point that should reach down into the base of what you try to do as an educator. I am much more comfortable with last two terms than the first.
But do you SERIOUSLY think you can say rape and battery of women by men is a “male social norm”? In both the U.S. and Brazil, it is understood to be a shameful thing, not a norm.
It is information that helps people stay safe.
If it gets them jumping a boogiemen, it’s not helping them “stay safe”: it’s helping them stay scared. Scared is not safe, ES.
Do we say “well, you can never tell whether someone is more likely to be a rapist, so just hang around with anyone you want and you’ll be fine”?
I’d say concentrate on what we know. I’d say concentrate on the warning signs that we can reasonably prove. And I’d say concentrate on EMPOWERING people, not making them afraid.
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Thad, since I can’t rely on common sense to debate with you, and really don’t have time to dig up empirical evidence to support things that I say, I may as well not bother. Because if you really think it is worth arguing over whether men are really more violent than women, then I am already too exhausted in advance to continue. I suggest you look at who is stabbing, shooting and bashing people on the streets, knocking lumps out of each other on the sporting field, and making up 94%+ of the prison population and 98% of sexual offenders (in my country at least), and ask yourself if you really think women are equally as violent. I’d wager the only other person on this thread who would really bother to argue this is no_slappz.
“But do you SERIOUSLY think you can say rape and battery of women by men is a “male social norm”? In both the U.S. and Brazil, it is understood to be a shameful thing, not a norm.”
Not what I said. Of course, rape and battery of women are generally taboo. However, there are aspects of male social conditioning that can create a mindset which makes rape more likely to happen.
I’m not an academic and I see no point in getting caught up in semantic arguments about defining “male culture” versus “male social norms” or anything else. They mean similar things and I think you are smart enough to figure out what I mean.
Your average rapíst isn’t your “typical male patriarchy supporter”: he’s generally a guy with a VERY fu$%ed up sexual and emotional make-up. In short, in spite of what certain folklorists would have you believe, rapists do not represent “typical” males.
There is not only one type of rape, and there is not only one type of rapist. The type of person who ambushes women in parks and dark alleys is not necessarily the same type of person who takes advantage of inebriated women or forces his partner to have sex when she doesnt want to. Whether or not the person is messed up to begin with, certain patriarchal views increase the likelihood of rape happening.
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With regard to:
“I’d wager the only other person on this thread who would really bother to argue this is no_slappz”.
He is not that bad, I think he would NOT disagree with you on what you suggest about the ’empirical stats’ regarding ‘men and aggression’.
I think where you may ‘diverge’ is in the conclusion reached for this phenomena and ho wit ties into the subject of rape.
he he he
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Thad, since I can’t rely on common sense to debate with you, and really don’t have time to dig up empirical evidence to support things that I say, I may as well not bother.
Weren’t you the man who was setting himself up as an authority who “lives and breathes” this stuff? I would think, given that description of yourself, that you wouldn’t have to “dig up empirical evidence”.
Hell, ES, my gender reference library is setting about 30 cm away from my fingertips on the shelf behind my computer.
“Common sense” is a very shaky ally when it comes to gender, ES. “Common sense” told white people in the 1920s that black men were all potential rapists. It told folks in the 1950s that gay men were mentally ill. And it’s telling you now that men are responsible for almost all the violence in the world. I’m not a big fan of “common sense” in the study of gender because historically, “common sense” has shown itself to be the cover for prejudiced BS, more often than not.
I suggest you look at who is stabbing, shooting and bashing people on the streets, knocking lumps out of each other on the sporting field, and making up 94%+ of the prison population and 98% of sexual offenders (in my country at least), and ask yourself if you really think women are equally as violent.
Again, we’re agreed on physcial violence being more of a male specialty, so your point is…?
Other kinds of violence exist and pro-women activists are quick to point them out when women are victimized by them. So why are they a non-issue to you when men are victimized by them, ES? The traditional gender model in the west rests upon a sexual and moral double standard and the position that non-physical violence is only of import when it happens to women reek of that double standard.
Secondly, if you have access to those stats you cite above, surely you ALSO have access to statistics regarding the gender of victims of violence: mostly male. And the percentages of male sexual offenders who have themselves been the victims of sexual violence: very high.
Given this, the picture seems to be a wee bit more complicated than the clear-cut “men victimizers – women victimized” dichotomy that you favor.
However, there are aspects of male social conditioning that can create a mindset which makes rape more likely to happen.
Perhaps. One of the most statistically significant ones is that the male himself was the victim of sexual violence. That’s a lot more linked to rape than being a sportsfan, ES. We’ve known about that particular linkage for almost half a century now.
So why doesn’t it show up on any of the lists like the one above?
I’ll tell you why: because violence towards males is naturalized as a non-issue.
I’m not an academic and I see no point in getting caught up in semantic arguments about defining “male culture” versus “male social norms” or anything else. They mean similar things and I think you are smart enough to figure out what I mean.
First of all, it’s not a semantic argument but a theoretical one which is EXTREMELY important when it comes to adjudging causality and conducting interventions. Secondly, it isn’t esoteric: freshman students in social work are required to understand the difference between “culture” and “social norms”. This is a basic part of the education process for a social work professional. Third, it’s precisely because YOU are smart enough to understand this difference, combined with the fact that your profession (which you “live and breathe”, remember?) REQUIRES you to understand this difference that it disturbs me that you can just wave this away as no big deal at all.
There is not only one type of rape, and there is not only one type of rapist.
That’s the main type of rapist, ES: the norm who is in prison. And that type of person is most DEFINITELY NOT the person who “ambushes strange women in dark alleyways”, as you put it. He is most likely someone the woman knows and probably knows rather well.
As for “taking advantage of inebriated women”, that’s a pretty foggy concept, as we’ve discussed above. Are we talking about a women being violated while she’s passed out (which is definitely rape)? Or are we talking about a woman getting drunk and making decisions she’ll regret when she becomes sober – which is not rape?
Whether or not the person is messed up to begin with, certain patriarchal views increase the likelihood of rape happening.
Name them and explain why they are patriarchical.
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Thad, remember that you are an academic with a “gender reference library” 30cm away from where you sit and type. It’s been a few years since my uni days, and I am in the business of communicating concepts to non-academic people. For this reason, I might use terms in a way which is not strictly correct according to an academic understanding, because I am used to speaking and writing in a way that is accessible to the layperson.
And when I say I live and breathe this stuff, that also means that my experiences are not restricted to reading academic textbooks. They are from dealing with real people – victims, perpetrators, and regular young men who know rape and DV are wrong but nonetheless express a variety attitudes that support those things.
And the man who raped someone very close to me (while they were in a relationship) – he fit 10 out of those 11 characteristics.
So just a few examples of attitudes that are commonly socialised into males, which are supportive of rape:
* Women seen as sexually promiscuous or available are sluts and whores, not deserving of respect, and possibly to blame if something happens to them.
* Male sexual desire is so powerful that males are just expected to shag as much as they can. It is up to women to avoid doing anything that would wrongly entice a man.
* The point of pursuing women is sexual conquest. Not emotional intimacy or having nice conversations – those are fine, but if you don’t “score” then there’s no point.
* A man who has lots of sexual conquests is more of a man than one who has not.
* A real man has to be in charge of situations. A man who allows women too much power in a situation is less of a man.
* A real man does not back down – that is a sign of weakness.
* Strength and physical domination are measures of masculinity.
Obviously, there is also a whole heap of other social norms which discourage rape and violence against women. Yet men also absorb the above values, which by themselves do not make anyone a rapist, but add encouragement to those who might possibly commit rape.
Liking sports does not make anyone a likely rapist. But that’s not the same as having a “jock mentality”. Let me point out that I have been working extensively with sporting clubs in my country to help change their culture because the high number of sexual offences committed by footballers has got our sporting peak bodies in panic mode. Now there can be all kinds of reasons for each rape to occur (many of which having involved multiple players), but the highly-charged macho team environment is undeniably a factor. Similar contexts occur in frat houses, gangs and military units.
As for “taking advantage of inebriated women”, that’s a pretty foggy concept, as we’ve discussed above. Are we talking about a women being violated while she’s passed out (which is definitely rape)? Or are we talking about a woman getting drunk and making decisions she’ll regret when she becomes sober – which is not rape?
I’m not talking about the second example. But between those two examples is a whole continuum of acts which are either rape or very close to it.
Regarding male and female violence, unless you think women are FAR worse than men in terms of verbal, psychological and social abuse (which I don’t think they are), then men still come out on top as being more violent. Men are violent to other men and women. Bear in mind also that physical strength is a reinforcer of the more subtle signs of violence. A man’s verbal aggression towards a woman tends to be more impactful than the reverse – because of the greater potential for it to become physically damaging as well, it often carries a greater threat.
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Thad, remember that you are an academic with a “gender reference library” 30cm away from where you sit and type. It’s been a few years since my uni days, and I am in the business of communicating concepts to non-academic people. For this reason, I might use terms in a way which is not strictly correct according to an academic understanding, because I am used to speaking and writing in a way that is accessible to the layperson.
Understood. Then again, I teach this stuff to freshmen bio students and social work students, so I’m not too heavy on the jargon. An understanding of “culture” seems to me to be a prerequisite for a guy who wants to plant causality for sexual violence on “patriarchical culture” and who works in the field of education regarding gender relations. It doesn’t seem too much to ask. It’s not like I’m asking you to talk about structuralism or whatever.
And when I say I live and breathe this stuff, that also means that my experiences are not restricted to reading academic textbooks. They are from dealing with real people – victims, perpetrators, and regular young men who know rape and DV are wrong but nonetheless express a variety attitudes that support those things.
And an anthro’s laboratory is the streets – in my case the streets and bars and brothels of Rio, where I’m also dealing with real people. This “oh, academics are so theoretical: I deal with the REAL world” is a complete misunderstanding of how anthros (at least) conduct their business: participant observation is the name of the game for us. We don’t try to isolate social events in the lab: we observe them as they occur in real life.
And the man who raped someone very close to me (while they were in a relationship) – he fit 10 out of those 11 characteristics.
I bet he also ate tomatoes as well. When the characateristics are as universal as “drinks” and “loves sports”, most men are going to fit them. That doesn’t mean there’s a causal link. Now, I agree – as I have said before, repeatedly – that some of those characteristics are probably good warning signs. It’s lumping what we know together with prejudices in a list which is supposed to let people qualify who’s bad and who’s good that bothers me.
* Women seen as sexually promiscuous or available are sluts and whores, not deserving of respect, and possibly to blame if something happens to them.
This is a MALE thing? Have you ever talked to women about “sluts and whores”, ES? I do. It’s part of my job. I can guarantee you that this prejudice is society-wide, not a male speciality.
* Male sexual desire is so powerful that males are just expected to shag as much as they can. It is up to women to avoid doing anything that would wrongly entice a man.
Again, this is a male thing? There are women on this site who have made similar statements.
* The point of pursuing women is sexual conquest. Not emotional intimacy or having nice conversations – those are fine, but if you don’t “score” then there’s no point.
This I definitely see as male-specific socialization. My question, however, is why this is necessarily a bad thing? Do you really think that the point of sex must need always be emotional intimacy? From what I see, looking around, women are moving more towards men on this point. If anything, this attitude risks becoming universalized in upsoming decades.
* A man who has lots of sexual conquests is more of a man than one who has not.
Yes, this is male-specific socialization. I, personally, happen to think it’s crap.
* A real man has to be in charge of situations. A man who allows women too much power in a situation is less of a man.
I have easily heard as many men complain about women who are dominating and controlling as women complain about men. Very, very few men that I know feel that they are “in control” in their households and I know many men who are pretty well dominated by their wives. If you deal with “the real world”, as you say, I find it hard to believe that you haven’t run into this very common situation.
* A real man does not back down – that is a sign of weakness.
Again, plenty of women have this problem. It is, in fact, a common complaint of men: “She’s gotta be right all the time.” I very much doubt you haven’t heard men complain that their mates don’t back down from a confrontation.
* Strength and physical domination are measures of masculinity.
In some situations, perhaps. However, I’d say that today’s man judges and is judged more by money than strength.
Yet men also absorb the above values, which by themselves do not make anyone a rapist, but add encouragement to those who might possibly commit rape.
“Add encouragement…”? I’d wager a guess that 99% of the men who express the sentiments you list would also happily kill any rapist they catch. What I don’t believe, ES, is the connection you’re trying to make between rape and traditional masculinity. If anything, traditional masculinity has drastically decreased over the past 5 decades: rape hasn’t. That in and of itself should tell you that your causal hypothesis may have a few holes in it.
Regarding male and female violence, unless you think women are FAR worse than men in terms of verbal, psychological and social abuse (which I don’t think they are), then men still come out on top as being more violent.
Perhaps – but not FAR more violent. And the point is that we REALLY DON’T KNOW, and yet you presume that we do.
A man’s verbal aggression towards a woman tends to be more impactful than the reverse – because of the greater potential for it to become physically damaging as well, it often carries a greater threat.
That’s a simple presumption which might seem logical but which is not proven. We don’t know what sort of aggression is “more impactful”, but everything we DO know suggests that it varies wildly from person to person, depending upon what their personal past experiences with violence are.
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Since you like empirical examples and not hypotheticals, here’s a situation I dealt with. An ethnography – or deep description – of a domestic violence situation I had to intervene in. I’d be interested in what you have to say about it:
Jan and Jean were each about 30 years old and were lovers for three years when they started having trouble. The trouble began regarding Jean’s job, which Jan found inadequate, given that Jan was paying more than 50% of the couple’s bills. Jan believed that Jean could do more: Jean thought that they were doing enough.
As often happens, these money issues spilled over into the couple’s intimate life. Their housemates would often catch them arguing in the kitchen or living room when they thought no one else was home. On these occasions, Jan would be extremely verbally aggressive, not allowing Jean a word in edgewise. Jan would also often physically shove Jean into a corner and berate them. Jean would get tongue-tied, not know what to say, and just shut down, giving mono-syllabic responses and trying to get away from Jan, who wouldn’t let Jean go past.
One night, while this sort of confrontation had been going on for over a month, Jan finally grabbed onto Jean and started slapping and screaming at them. Jean fought back and landed a punch in Jan’s eye, broke the hold and ran out of the house.
That confrontation seemed to calm things down a bit and the couple went in for counseling, agreeing to part friends. Unfortunately, they still had to live in the same house for a few months while Jean planned a move to another city. Jan kept the couple’s old room and Jean moved into a downstairs room.
Both Jean and Jan started seeing other people during this time. Jean started dating Chris, a fairly good friend of mine, bringing Chris over to the house – which was probably a bad idea, in retrospect. Jan, however, started flirting with another house resident, Connie.
One night, Jan discovered that Chris was staying over in Jean’s room and flew into a rage. Jan tried to run downstairs to physcially attack Chris. Connie and I had to grab onto Jan and, even so, we were both bodily dragged to the stairwell door and all three of us were almost hurled down the stairs together, propelled by Jan’s exertions.
While Jan howled abuse from upstairs, Chris decided that they had heard enough and came out of Jean’s room to yell back up at Jean. Meanwhile, I’m screaming at Jean to take Chris and get the f$%* out of the house before someone gets killed. Jean finally came out of the downstairs bedroom to collect Chris. The couple made their escape through the basement window. Connie and I then spent the next hour calming Jan down – something which also required a couple of shots of vodka.
This was one of the worst domestic disputes I’ve ever witnessed (though not the worst), but I found it fairly typical. I’ve seen similar occurrences on at least a half-dozen other occasions (just going off the top of my head).
So given the fairly typical nature of the confrontation ES, here’s my question: what are the genders of Jean, Jan, Chris and Connie?
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^
This is a MALE thing? Have you ever talked to women about “sluts and whores”, ES? I do. It’s part of my job. I can guarantee you that this prejudice is society-wide, not a male speciality.
This and the “males just have to shag anything they can” stereotype are certainly held by both sexes. But who created them? Both views serve to control women’s sexuality while giving men free reign. The more oppressive a society is towards women, the stronger you will see these sentiments expressed. I’ve met so many Middle Eastern guys who expect their future wife to be a virgin, while simultaneously trying to get as much pre-material sex with “sluts” as they can, and being seemingly oblivious to the double standard.
“Do you really think that the point of sex must need always be emotional intimacy?”
Of course not. However, empathy and emotional connection are almost guarantees of consent. Plenty of men can separate physical from emotional, and could easily have sex with a woman they did not care for.
If anything, traditional masculinity has drastically decreased over the past 5 decades
True, yet in some sections of society it has hardly changed at all. When I first started working my field, I would constantly be stunned by the viewpoints young men expressed – I had no idea people still thought like that.
I very much doubt you haven’t heard men complain that their mates don’t back down from a confrontation.
Sure. But when men are seen to give in or back down in various situations, they get labelled “wuss”, “pussy”, “girl”, “bitch”, “soft” and so on. I used to hear it all the time when I played team sport. When women back down, is there a similar level of stigma?
Regarding your story, it’s all very interesting, but really is there any point in using examples in such a way? Because I can quote endless examples as well. There will always be examples of whatever behaviour you or I wish to highlight, but that doesn’t mean it is necessarily representative of a broader trend.
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Regarding your story, it’s all very interesting, but really is there any point in using examples in such a way?
You brought up the point of “theoretical versus real life knowledge”, my friend, not me.
I have close to a dozen ethnographic examples like the one above. “Ethnographic” in this sense meaning I was actually there when the violence occurred, saw it play out and also saw the set of circumstances which led up to it.
This is “real life” knowledge of how gender violence plays out, ES: not sitting in a crisis center and attending to Jean and/or Jean when they come in with a bruised face and a story about how they were attacked by their partner.
You want to deal with reality: this is it.
You have a theoretical and ideological position regarding who is more violent in couple relations, one which orients your educational work. I want to see you apply it to a real-life situation.
The situation I describe above is hardly rare or unusual, ES: in fact, it is damned typical.
There will always be examples of whatever behaviour you or I wish to highlight, but that doesn’t mean it is necessarily representative of a broader trend.
When said stories are normative, they do indeed illustrate a broader trend.
The story I describe above should be quite familiar to anyone who has dealt with real-life gender violence real-time and on the ground. It is EASILY as normative and broad-based as the typical “drunken guy comes home and beats wife around the house” story which I’m sure you’ll highlight in your work.
Now the problem with the above story is that it really doesn’t matter who’s male and who’s female, does it? Both members of the couple are acting like violent assholes.
But there’s an interesting denoument to the story…
After the second confrontation, Jan and Jean ended up in court-mandated counseling. Guess who was told that they had to learn how to control their aggressive tendencies? Guess who was threatened with legal action if they came near the old house again?
The man. That’s how a fair bit of the “violence against women” numbers which you cite are manufactured. Jan and Jean’s confrontation went into the city crimes books as male-inspired domestic violence. If the male of the couple had been involved in one more confrontation with the female of the couple, they would have been arrested and would have also inflated the “males in jail for violence” stats which you cite as determinative.
So I told this story not to cherry pick, but to concretely show HOW a lot of domestic violence finally ends up in the police house, with the male presumed guilty and the woman presumed innocent.
I also cite the story for a second reason.
You say you’re a sexual violence educator and you believe that there’s a “typical” profile to male violence. If your presumption is correct, you should be able to look at the above story and suss out the genders of the protagonists.
So how about putting your claims to the test and trying?
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Nice post!
As an overcomer of sexual assault occurring with different people, I can say the list is pretty straight to the point and might just help someone avoid what I delt with.
#1 Rule: Never silence your gut feeling. Your FIRST percetion of a stranger is usually accurate. If you are uncomfortable with someone or a group of people distance your from them. There is a reason you being uncomfortable.
The Lord has given us our intuition as a compass for lifes’ unfamiliar situations. Remember that initial rumbly-tummy gut feeling might just save your life!
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Funny, my youngest sister fits all these points. The only thing that does not fit her is #11: she does not drink or use drugs.
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I hope this gets posted AND ALL guys read it! I kinda feel bad for ‘letting my bf continue his sick ways!’ See, I feel like a supplier (there’s a better term);I am disabled, as is he. We regularly engaged in intercouse but HE was posessed! He rarely stopped when I couldn’t handle his roughness! I know this was my fault too! However, I never made him stop bc I liked the control and making him happy. I feel bad now that we broke up because HE is gonna rape someone else (if he treats a dif girl this way)!!!! Don’t disparage me as I KNOW I contributed!!!!!!!!]]BTW- He cotrolled ME too in a big way; companionship
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[…] (check this link to see if your a rapist! https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/04/13/the-danger-signs-of-a-rapist/) […]
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@ Thaddeus
You may have a point there. I piss standing up, and I am a rapist. (Though I am female). Co-relations! XD
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hi my name is Alexandria and this guy asked to come over and watch a Movie so we got in the bed and he pulled my clothes down and focused his peinis inside me but he didn’t finish.plus bad thing about it.my dad Hooked me up with the bastered and now he still contacts me.what should I do??
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There was a time in my life where I needed somewhere to stay in between a move to another state. I stayed with one of my coworkers, who was a male, and twice my age. He appeared nice, but I noticed he would always get touchy-feely…I believe this is one of the signs (always trying to hold your hand, or touching you on the neck)..any type of skin contact is what they go after. He also proceeded to tell me a story before moving in with him about a woman he let live with him for a while, and how she would, “walk around the house like it was hers”……he would also speak as if he was pro-black, but had white and hispanic girlfriends in the past (this is another sign…..always lying and contradicting oneself to the point of sounding absurd)….I started to feel uncomfortable, and left while he was at work to stay with my family….smh
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Years ago, I read this book The Gift Of Fear by Gavin de Becker. In it, he explains why it’s so important to always trust your gut instinct. For example, if someone you’ve just met makes you feel uncomfortable, you know, that feeling you get when something isn’t right? Then you should follow your intuition and leave as soon as possible because it could save you from a potential rape/murder situation. And if it so happens your gut feeling is wrong then it’s better to be safe than sorry.
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I worked with teenage male sex offenders, and I think this list is entirely valid. It may also be possible to pretend to side with a suspicious guy in conversations just to see where he goes with his thinking and the joking is a very common way to show under-handed anger at women as well.
On the sub-topic of victimology, sadly it often is true that the more passive women get attacked. We learned there’s nothing we can do to get away (by seeng it happen endlessly on film which the brain perceives as real on some level), we learned it’s not okay to be angry, outspoken-I realize I’m saying nothing new but it’s conditioning that works.
It is important to say loudly that this does not imply that there was more that victims could have done to protect themselves!! They had no knowledge of what to do, so how could they?
However, when it comes to escape strategies, we could brainstorm ideas, because what we’re not hearing from the media is how often women and children get away. What about a topic on that? I’m sure we all have success stories.
Also, thanks to everybody for some informative posts.
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I possess all of these traits and am not a rapist…
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^ YET…
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^^ROFL!
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I don’t mean to rape.. I just want what I want.. feeling sorry
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REALLY!? Where is the male rape part!? It happens to us too assholes! I have been raped at least 6 times this year! So FUCK YOU SEXIST PIGS! I NEEDED THIS TO KNOW IF A STALKER WAS GOING TO HURT ME BUT THANKS FOR NOTHING!!!
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I have who i thought was a friend im with someone but when at one point im alone with my grandbaby i bent doqn i he makes a cimnent like i gave him a willy. I keeps saying i want to see yoyr breast n wont keave me aline when my spouse is away he has a wufw in a wheelchair he has naked pics of my daughter he forced her to get naked i dont know what to do she is over 21
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My boyfriend is 17 soon to be 18 , August 2nd. His actions are soo weird. My niece is 2 and for some reason she likes to sit on my boyfriend’s lap and mess with him. Whys that? It’s weird to me. And my neice trys to hump and kids on everyone. What should I fo
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