The following is based on Chapter 3 of Frantz Fanon’s “Black Skin, White Masks” (1952): “The Man of Colour and the White Woman”:
Fanon, a black psychiatrist from Martinique, starts by saying of himself:
I want to be recognized not as Black but as White. … who better than the white woman to bring this about? By loving me she proves to me that I am worthy of a white love. I am loved like a white man. I am a white man.
Yes, it gets worse:
Between these white breasts that my wandering hands fondle, white civilization and worthiness become mine.
Having lost half his readership, Fanon then turns to the case of Jean Veneuse, the hero of an autobiographical novel by Rene Maran, “Un homme pareil aux autres” (1947).
Jean Veneuse came to France from the Caribbean when he was three or four. He lost his parents and was brought up by boarding schools in France, the only black student in a sea of white. He has a lonely childhood. When the other students go home for the holidays he is left alone at school. He withdraws into himself and into books: Aurelius, Tagore, Pascal and other writers become his only friends.
He grows up French and falls in love with a white woman. He wonders about his motives.
Maybe it is simply because he was brought up European and so desires European women just like any other man in Europe. Or, contrariwise, maybe it is because he is black:
the common mulatto and black man have only one thought on their mind as soon as they set foot in Europe: to gratify their appetite for white women.
Most of them, including those with lighter skin who often go so far as denying both their country and their mother, marry less for love than for the satisfaction of dominating a European woman, spiced with a certain taste for arrogance.
And so I wonder whether … I am unconsciously endeavoring to take my revenge on the European female for everything her ancestors have inflicted on my people throughout the centuries.
Yet when he works in Africa as a civil servant he proves to be just as bad as the whites, complete with the native girl in his hut. So maybe it is not revenge that he wants but to separate himself from his race or even somehow to become raceless.
But Fanon says that Veneuse’s troubles run much deeper than that: he was left alone in the world by his mother as a small boy and is hung up on that. So he is afraid to love and be loved. He holds everyone at arm’s length, even the woman he wants to marry. Therefore we cannot draw any general conclusions from Veneuse’s case.
I have not read the whole book – I post as I read – but at this point this chapter seems like a waste. But we shall see.
See also:
- Liberator magazine’s take on this chapter
- Frantz Fanon
- Frantz Fanon: Black Skin, White Masks
- sexual selection and race
- race and dating
- internalized racism
- Is the White Goddess blog a satire?
- Who famous black men date
ha ha ha…that was quick!! Cheers
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I had heard of Franz Fanon for a long time, probably in some favorable light. He was an author that I thought I might read someday. After reading your synopsis of the first few chapters, I don’t think I would read any of his books. He doesn’t appear to be relevant and certainly not to my life.
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Same here except that for me that someday has come and I have publicly committed to reading him to the end. Hopefully it will turn out better than it seems at this point.
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Not quite sure what to say here. There is providing a summary of a chapter of a book but adding interjections like:
1. “Having lost half his readership” – to a book which is considered a classic
2. “but at this point this chapter seems like a waste” – Is that vis-a-vis the personnel here or vis-a-vis the book and the world, including the ‘Black world’??.
Perhaps I was correct in my initial comment, when I said
“ha ha ha…that was quick (response)!!”
Thanks!!
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That is vis-a-vis me. This chapter disappointed me. I hope that my judgement is ill-founded. Sometimes I read something and it leaves me cold like this and it is only later that I begin to understand it. I am just glad that I did not read the first page of Chapter 3 in the bookstore.
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I want to be recognized not as Black but as White. … who better than the white woman to bring this about? By loving me she proves to me that I am worthy of a white love. I am loved like a white man. I am a white man.
Between these white breasts that my wandering hands fondle, white civilization and worthiness become mine.
…Bwahahaha. Fanon was a special one, wasn’t he? Well, at least he admits that he would’ve liked to be viewed as white. So he suffers from the same neurosis that he accused some black women of.
Most of them, including those with lighter skin who often go so far as denying both their country and their mother, marry less for love than for the satisfaction of dominating a European woman, spiced with a certain taste for arrogance.
And so I wonder whether … I am unconsciously endeavoring to take my revenge on the European female for everything her ancestors have inflicted on my people throughout the centuries.
I knew he was going to offer this reason for the black male/white female relationship. I just knew it. People offer this explanation nowadays too. But they are oversimplifying.
Undoubtedly, black males have been affected by white supremacy and white ideals of beauty, as have black females. They simply have been trained to believe that white women and other non-black women are more beautiful, more feminine, and more worthy of adoration. Today, and surely in the past, some black men see a relationship with a white woman as being something to aspire to, and ideal that if they should ever reach, would bring them value and reassure them. Essentially what Fanon said of himself. So again, I’m wondering why he felt this needed a separate chapter.
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Here is another analysis of the chapter which I managed to find. I had a very quick glimpse of it. I think it gives a more rounded analysis of the chapter.
I don’t mean to pre-empt you here. However, when it comes to the ‘facts’ we should not shy away from them simply because theya re not in accordance with our worldviews etc
Chapter Three: The Man of Color and the White Woman
From the Liberator Magazine
http://weblog.liberatormagazine.com/2010/01/frantz-fanons-black-skin-white-masks-ch.html
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In Chapter 2 he made Mayotte seem desperate and borderline delusional. Yet he starts this chapter sounding like her, just with a better education, and we are expected to believe he is NOT desperate and borderline delusional? Come on.
Then he spends most of the chapter on Veneuse yet at the end says we can not extend his example to other men of colour. Why in the world, then, did he waste so much time on Veneuse?
I got the feeling that Fanon was trying to avoid the whole issue. I hope I am wrong and that there is something I am missing.
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J:
Oh cool, Liberator magazine is doing the same chapter-a-week thing. Thanks for the link!
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I think you may well be since ch2 and ch 3 are based on two different books, from two different authors, even gender, and hence two different perspectives altogether.
From the respective books position Fanon then goes on to espouse a position from the facts of the respective books.
Notwithstanding that he has to put his own slant and interpretations on those facts and also from a psychoanalytical perspective therewith.
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As for the link you are more than welcome
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Nothing earth shattering about this chapter, just what I’d fully expected this man to say. Heck I see it all the time.
Men that date/marry for status, these men find ‘civilization and worthiness’ in the these white women. Love doesn’t even come into it at all.
Am glad a black man offered that confirmation lest black women be crucified for saying so!
That type of black male is in awe of the white man’s achievement,he’s envious, what better way to conquer, hurt and overcome him than through a white woman. With few exceptions, she could be the mousiest, tubbiest even a gold-digger, but doggone it she’s white, and he’s gotta have that LOL!
I’ve observed black men’s behaviour in the West for a long time.The propensity to prefer lighter and whiter skin has definitely manifested over a long period of living in a white world. He lives in a world where he’s not independent of thought if the image of what he should find beautiful is constantly shoved down his throat. He’s so exasperated with a system that screws him over so he’ll screw as many of its women as possible. Mmmm.
The first chapter tried to manipulate readers to question/doubt BW/WM couplings, am glad he exposed himself. He wants to be white. He’s nothing without white approval. He worships the white man through his women.
He’s a psychiatrist? Pah! Should be the other way around with him on the sofa!
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“Am glad a black man offered that confirmation lest black women be crucified for saying so”!
ha ha ha… in a way this is a very insightful observation
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I think that there’s a problem of interpretation here.
First of all, Fanon is talking from within the Freudian psychological perspective – and originally in French, to boot. That “I” is not meant to be a biographical reference to himself, but to the black male ego IN GENERAL.
You can argue, of course, that Fanon believes this is true because he himself believes this with some part of his being and that he’s thus generalizing his particulars. But there are two things wrong with that view:
1) His feelings on this topic come from experience in dealing, as a psychologist, with other black men.
2) He uses these topics to highlight a case in which precisely this feeling shows up. He then classifies it as neurotic and not normal.
As we’ll see in further chapters, Fanon will then dismantle this position even further and show how it is implanted in the black mind and then enabled into neurosis by racism.
And, actually, we CAN draw some conclusions from Veneuse’s case: Fanon says that he was simply neurotic and his focus on white women an expression of this.
This is not a wasted argument in the racist context of the 1950s, where many psychologists would have believed that Veneuse’s fixation was “normal” because it was the result of his “natural” reaction to “superior” white beauty and culture.
Fanon does two important things with this chapter:
1) He shows that, no, Veneuse was not psychologicaly normal, he was a nutter and to thus to judge his actions as some “natural” part of the black psyche is reidiculous.
2) Nevertheless, Veneuse was fixated on white women. Fanon wishes us to ask HOW and WHY such a fixation occurs.
Here’s the end of the chapter and I think it admirably makes Fanon’s point and opens the way for the rest of the work:
This sexual myth – the quest for white flesh – perpetuated by alienated psyches, must no longer be allowed to impede active understanding.
In no way should my color be regarded as a flaw. From the moment the Negro accepts the separation imposed by the European he has no respite, and “is it not understandable that thenceforward he will try to elevate himself to the white man’s level?To elevate himself in the range of colors to which he attributes a kind of heirarchy?”
Note that quote within a quote: it is from Claude Nordey, a french and presumably white author who wrote a book called “The Man of Color”. Fanon then goes on to contradict Nordey. He says no, this is not natural: it is neutrotic:
We shall see that another solution is possible. It implies a restructuring of the world.
What Fanon is saying is implyinfg and will prove in the upcoming chapters is that the racist system of the world turns the black man neurotic about his color and this is what causes many black men to fixate on white women. The solution to this is not to try to fix black men: it is not their problem. The solution is to eliminate racism.
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J,
Regarding The Liberator’s analysis, my only nit to pick with it would be where they say “With a nod to psychoanalysis…”, as if Fanon were just sort of putzing around with pyschoanalytical theory.
Remember that this was supposed to be his doctoral thesis. It’s a very deep enganement with what psychological theories existed out there regarding blackness which, at the time, weren’t much. His dismissal of Veneuse as “neurotic” isn’t a “nod” to psychoanalysis: it is a very pondered diagnosis at the time. And it’s GOOD that Veneuse is neurotic, because this means that his views are not the “natural” views of a black man impressed by so-called white superiority, which would have been the belief of many of the white scientists with whom he is dialoging (Nordey, for one).
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That “I” is not meant to be a biographical reference to himself, but to the black male ego IN GENERAL.
Then again, I wonder, why didn’t he just make one chapter on black/white relationships as a whole? He could’ve added that bit about revenge as a side note. I’m all for economy. Unless, of course, he does see the two types of relationships as being fundamentally different.
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ha ha ha… in a way this is a very insightful observation.
True, that. If Fanon had been a woman, certainly this point would be dismissed – even today, probably.
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Then again, I wonder, why didn’t he just make one chapter on black/white relationships as a whole?
Blame the French and their notions of textual esthetics. “Economy” is not exactly highly valued in French academe as a characteristic of writing.
Try digging through Pierre Bourdieu or Michel Foucault sometime. Their points are great and they are absolutely original thinkers, but after plowing through a chapter of blablabla to reach a point which could have been made in two paragraphs, I want to scream “Why the hell didn’t you just come out and say that in the first place?”
Not the French, though: they want to make sure that you really get it and will make you die of boredom – and risk not getting it at all – in order that you do.
The French get extra points on their papers for picking nits. If you were like me during your school years in the States, you had professors yelling “GET TO THE POINT!” at you.
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Thanks Thad!
And by the way that was a very good exposition you gave there.
All I would just add that I do think Fanon would suggest it is the Black man’s problem, the world he finds himself in.
If you read his other works he calls upon the Black man to free himself from the colonial situation, by any means necessary, which many were against, when he advocated these views.
With regard to your comment on the Liberator. Personally I think it is more accurate than Abagond’s precis and secondly I would suggest that much of Fanon’s reasoning is based within the psychoanalytic tradition, of going to underlying causes that determines behaviour.
Its this depth of reasoning and analysis that makes Fanon complicated to engage. Since he is not just looking at matters on the superficial level.
So what I am saying Fanon may conclude psychoanalytic terms like ‘neurosis’, ‘complexes’ etc. however, not before he has attempted a long length analysis h which would be true to a psychoanalytic form and perspective – and also in keeping with his doctoral thesis too
…if you follow
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ha ha ha… in a way this is a very insightful observation.
True, that. If Fanon had been a woman, certainly this point would be dismissed – even today, probably.
Just to say I don’t think this is what MerriMay was alluding to. In her perspective where she says
” …lest black women be crucified for saying so!”
I am in total agreement with her – for this would (and does) happen.
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I agree wholeheartedly with Natasha’s first comment on this page.
Which leads me to ask what the “dealio” is with the post that Lynette and I co-authored that address coping and overcoming such issues? I think it would be really beneficial.
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J sez:
All I would just add that I do think Fanon would suggest it is the Black man’s problem, the world he finds himself in.
If you read his other works he calls upon the Black man to free himself from the colonial situation, by any means necessary, which many were against, when he advocated these views.
Yeah, but remember those writings came way after BSWM. Here, he’s still groping towards that synthesis. He hasn’t quite embraced revolution yet.
So what I am saying Fanon may conclude psychoanalytic terms like ‘neurosis’, ‘complexes’ etc. however, not before he has attempted a long length analysis h which would be true to a psychoanalytic form and perspective – and also in keeping with his doctoral thesis too.
Yeah, and that stuff doesn’t come out in WSBM, because Fanon is basically writing to white psychologists. The overall tone of the book is as if he were still discussing things with his thesis defence committee. So he sort of presumes that anyone who’s reading it knows that he’s been working as a clinical psychologist and that he’s not just performing an a$$pull out of his own psyche when he writes things like that opening paragraph.
Today’s reader doesn’t necessarily know that.
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Mynameismyname:
LOL. It will be out this week. I have not forgotten.
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Merrimay sez:
Not sure what it is with you, but AGAIN I’ll say it, I’m reacting as I go along to this book, as Abagond blogs! Got it? Compandre?!(sorry about the spelling but you get the drift..)
Entendo. And yet my analysis is drawn 100% from this chapter alone. Fanon makes it real clear, at the end, that he considers the beginning statement to be nuts and he explains why that’s so using Veneuse’s case.
So when you say: ” He wants to be white. He’s nothing without white approval. He worships the white man through his women. He’s a psychiatrist? Pah! Should be the other way around with him on the sofa!”, I think you are being deeply unfair.
He’s clearly qualified those kinds of feelings as neurotic and not natural. I mean, what more do you want him to do? Hang a lampshade on it? I mean, I agree that you need do some interpretting in this chapter, that it’s not obvious, especially to laymen outside of psychology. And the translation certainly doesn’t help things. But I think you have to be seriously reading the man with some hardcore prejudice against him to interpret that first paragraph as a hymn to white superiority, given the rest of what he says in the chapter.
To say ‘I’ is the biggest form of self reference if ever there is one btw.
Not necessarily. The metaphoric “I” is often used in psychological and expository writing, which is exactly the tradition Fanon is writing in here. Hell, we even use it for the same purposes in the social sciences when we want to write from the perspective of the people we describe.
I agree that Freud would probably lift an eyebrow here. But I also caution that he’d look for other evidence that this was a slip on Fanon’s part and that is lacking. As the man himself said, “Sometimes a cigar is only a cigar.”
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Thanks Thad!!
You are correct to observe that I was conflating his thesis with his revolutionary works.
With regard to:
“Today’s reader doesn’t necessarily know that”.
And that is a lot of what is unfortunately happening here
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With regard to:
“Sometimes a cigar is only a cigar.”
Didn’t he suggest that it was not a cigar but
the psychosesof ‘penis envy’??
Sorry not my best attempt at a joke here (as he sniggers to himself – he he he)
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I think we need to draw a distinction between black men who prefer lighter features and black men who are neurotically drawn to white women, like that man who writes that white goddess blog. I’ve come to the conclusion that most black men do not outright prefer white women, but rather prefer “exotic” lighter-skinned women that have the best features of black and white women. Women like Esther Baxter, Emanuela De Paula.
Most men prefer lighter women for reasons I’m not sure of. Indian men, Thai men, Filipino men, black men, Arab men, Latin men, even white men hold the fairest white women at the top of the ladder(Nordics with blonde hair and blue eyes). Maybe there is some biological basis for this, or maybe it is all learned behavior, I don’t know.
For the black men with a neurotic fixation on white women, maybe it should be seen as just a form of fetishism like white men with yellow fever, but with perhaps a self-hate component. Perhaps in a world where black is socially stigmatized, it’s an innate desire to produce kids that won’t be at a disadvantage, or at least less of one. And then of course, blacks can’t help but absorb western notions of beauty and preference living in a white society. The doll experiment shows that this happens from a very young age.
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With regard to:
I think we need to draw a distinction between black men who prefer lighter features and black men who are neurotically drawn to white
Personally, I think many would say they are one and teh same process.
Moving it slightly since you did raise it. Many Indians do prefer ‘lighter-white skin’. As some suggest the basis for this is derived from thousand years of history when the ‘whiter-lighter-skin’ Aryas went into India and dominated the darker skinned Dravidian types
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Fanon goes easier on Venuse than he does on the female charaters he analysizes in chapter two. Venuse is simply a neurotic, white Mayotte is an “idot” and Nini is “silly”. I proposed that Fanon had some racially gendered issues, that he may have tackled if his life was not tragically cut so short.
Mid-1960’s French philoshers make my teeth bleed, but as a film and cultural studies scholar I have had to read Foucault, Barthes and have tried to avoid Derrida. For once I agree with Thad, these men are brilliant but I wish they would have simply come to the point! As psychiatrist Fanon ignores the power relations that promoted concubinage and sexul exploitation during colonization.
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Read the rest of the book, eshowoman. Fanon has some very pointed comments to make about concubinage and sexual exploitation during colonization.
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“In Chapter 2 he made Mayotte seem desperate and borderline delusional. Yet he starts this chapter sounding like her, just with a better education, and we are expected to believe he is NOT desperate and borderline delusional? Come on.”
This is what I mean. When reading this chapter following the chapter on women of color, I got the impression Fanon believed the behavior/mindset was more egregious in WOC than MOC.
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With regard to:
As psychiatrist Fanon ignores the power relations that promoted concubinage and sexul exploitation during colonization.
Without stating the obvious this was not his topic of discussion ie ‘concubinage’ or ‘sexual-ploitation’
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Is this yet another tautology ha ha ha??
In Chapter 2 he made Mayotte seem desperate and borderline delusional = Yet he starts this chapter sounding like her= I got the impression Fanon believed the behavior/mindset was more egregious in WOC than MOC.
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Tulio,
Any child a black man produces in the U.S. will be black (more or less). So, that puts the child at the forefront of anti-black stigma. You can argue that it faces that stigma less but that’s irrelevant. Hate is hate.
Not to be petty but I don’t know if someone like Esther Baxter fits the description of “light skinned/exotic”. She’s neither. And many black American men, or men of any race, who do have a racialized preference in women have it mainly for SOCIAL reasons, not aesthetic ones. Race is a social construct, not a biological one.
But I agree, living in a world where “white is right” drives the desire that many non-white Americans have for anything white.
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I’m going to flip it:
Discussions on the headset of black men who desire or pursue white women are fairly common. Yet, the exploration of the women who actually mate or procreate with these said black men is not.
If so many black men desire white women so much and mate with them, what drives the white women’s desire for the black man? What do they gain from such relationships? Why go for a man who society says is innately inferior to you?
Tulio suggested that some black men feel that having a child with a white female may erase some of the racial bias they may face. What’s the value of a white woman having a black child?
Basically, it takes two to tangle, and I’m interested in the motives and mindsets of white women who marry, date and procreate with black men.
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A Psychology nerd’s perspective:
Even though Freud did a lot for the field of Psychology as a whole, it’s widely accepted (you can’t ever “prove” anything in social science) that his ideas were basically…bunk. So while you can look at his ideas from a psychoanalytic perspective (hence his overusage, imo, of the term “neurosis”) it doesn’t mean anything because psychoanalysis is the psychological equivalent to Miss Cleo. Do with that what you will while reading Fanon. 🙂
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As for White women dating Black men there are a multitude of reasons…
However, the best perspective would be if White women came out themselves and begin to document and write such ‘her-tory’ (ie his-tory), from their perspective
I am not sure if there is much research on this subject because it is a contentious issue.
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If so many black men desire white women so much and mate with them, what drives the white women’s desire for the black man? What do they gain from such relationships?
Oddly enough, that’s the one point Fanon really doesn’t touch upon in BSWM.
All you “Fanon was expressing his inner confusion” theory people would do good to concetrate on THIS particular “oversight”.
Though to give Fanon hios due, he didn’t see many white women in therapy.
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“Any child a black man produces in the U.S. will be black (more or less). So, that puts the child at the forefront of anti-black stigma. You can argue that it faces that stigma less but that’s irrelevant.”
I don’t think it’s irrelevant. I totally think that being light-skinned helped Obama become president. I’m not convinced that if Obama looked like John Amos that he’d be president right now. Also, mixed blacks going all the way back to slavery had more privileges than dark blacks.
“If so many black men desire white women so much and mate with them, what drives the white women’s desire for the black man? What do they gain from such relationships?”
Abagond had a study he posted from ok cupid about interracial dating patterns. White women are the most discriminatory of all demographic groups when it comes to openness towards partners of a different race. Now when you’re talking about why would white women desire black men, we’re talking about an insignificant fraction of their population. Most of them by far only date and marry white men. So is it even a matter worth discussing? Maybe some of them just happened to meet a nice guy and fall in love. Some of them have sexual fetishes, some of them have thicker bodies that white men don’t like but that black men do. Some want to rebel against white society. etc etc.
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Tulio,
Per Obama: of course, sure. Yet the majority of white voters still didn’t vote for him. His mother’s race doesn’t stop him from getting death threats and racial attacks by the mile everyday, etc.
“Privileges” come with a price and can easily be taken away.
Also “dark blacks” were and still are “mixed” too but that’s neither here nor there.
And reversibly, black men who crave white women are an insignifant part of their population. Based on marital stats and my everyday life.
If we explore how anti-black racism drives some black men towards white women, then we should also explore how it draws these white women towards black men. It takes two to tangle.
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@ mynameismyname
Fair enough to discuss. I use to talk to a young a White woman that was a little bit older than me. She had told me about why she chooses and prefers to date Black men and occasionally Latino men. Her statements have a class element of why she only dates Black men and Latino men. She said that since she was poor many of the White boys in her neighborhood was also poor and did not prefer to be around poor White girls. They were too busy chasing the barbie upper class/middle class girl types. So she felt that she was unloved. However, she did mention that Black and Latino guys would give her the time of day and that helped her with her self-esteem because she felt wanted. So since then she hasn’t turned back. I’ve heard instances from other Black guys that will tell me that White girls wanted to talk to them to test the “Big penis myth”. So it seems to some White women its an exotification of the Black male sexuality that usually comes up. However, this is not representative of every White woman who are attracted to Black men. However, it is very common from hearing other Black men tell me that.
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I can’t help but notice when White men reject white women like in Dani’s story above or those with “thicker bodies” as Tulio mentioned, the white women just simply move on.
However when Black men reject Black women, Black men are subjected to a whole psychoanalysis of their well-being, accusations of hating themselves, their mothers, accused of being jealous of white men, etc, etc, etc. (this thread the latest example)
Or looking at it another way, White women who are rejected by White men seem less inclined to fight to retain those white men, who are said to have “alpha” status in society, than Black women who can’t seem to let Black men go inspite of constantly bemoaning and blaming Black men for relegating his “inferior” status upon her.
So why is a woman who is seemingly giving up more (alpha status) less vociferous than a woman who is giving up seemingly less (how many ways till Sunday are Black men told they are worthless)?
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@Truth B Told,
Some Black women have moved on from Black men altogether.
You seem to assume that all Black women are tied to Black men and cannot date/marry unless they are mated to Black men.
Not true.
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I never said “all”. Of course some have moved on, but far too many go out of there way to remain a nuisance.
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Or looking at it another way, White women who are rejected by White men seem less inclined to fight to retain those white men, who are said to have “alpha” status in society, than Black women who can’t seem to let Black men go inspite of constantly bemoaning and blaming Black men for relegating his “inferior” status upon her.
I beg to differ. When I am out and about with my SO, the two groups that seem the most intolerant of our relationship are white women and black men. Unsurprisingly. White women care just as much about losing “their” men, as black women do. It’s just that, due to the way society is structured, they do not usually have this issue. And, in my experience the white women who are rejected due to their weight/looks tend to be bitter and disheartened, and take up with non-white men to ease their insecurity about attracting men.
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^^^
So true.
Although, the white woman’s disapproval with relationships like yours is based on her ideas of a racial heirarchy. She feels superior to black women, so the sight of a white man choosing what’s supposedly to be so inferior to them plays with their ideas on race. Their whiteness doesn’t have the same value.
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Mynameismyname
I agree with Dani suggestions on why some white women are interested in black men. One of my best friends was a white women who had a black boyfriend. She had darker features, dark hair and olive skin, and she wasn’t bone skinny. She wasn’t fat but she wasn’t small enough to be considered petite. She was very tall and I guess she would be considered medium size. Well, she mentioned a few times, that white men prefered very skinny, blond haired, and very fair white women. Black men are known for preferring thicker women, not necessarily fat, but not skinny either. So I think she felt more comfortable with black men. And like Dani said, some white women are simply curious to see if the black men have big penises like people say. But I must also say, that the vast majority of white people, both men and women, marry other whites. The number of white women who are married to black men are very few.
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Natasha, I agree with you completely and I never looked at it that way. I was always curious as to why so many larger white women were with black men. I just assumed it was because black men like large women. Never considered that it could be due to insecurity on the part of the ww.
When you are out with your so, what kind of reactions do you get?
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jeri, you wrote:
“Well, she mentioned a few times, that white men prefered very skinny, blond haired, and very fair white women.”
Clearly this woman’s opinion is based on her own insecurities — not the actual dating habits of white men.
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With regard to:
“And, in my experience the white women who are rejected due to their weight/looks tend to be bitter and disheartened, and take up with non-white men to ease their insecurity about attracting men”.
I have not found this to be the case in London.
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J, what have you found to be the case in London?
mynameismyname, true. I think it makes them insecure about their place on the hierarchy of female desirability. Which is silly.
islandgirl,
When you are out with your so, what kind of reactions do you get?
Most people don’t care or pay any special attention to us, but others react positively or negatively. Negative responses include stares and dirty looks (most frequently), uncordial treatment by employees at shops or restaurants, and occasionally snarky comments.
Once we walked up to a clothing store, where a group of white women were chatting at the front. As soon as we walked up, they became silent and just stared at us, watching our every movement. It was pretty awkward, so we left quickly. In another instance we were walking past two black men in a parking lot and one made a remark about lying with the “massa” and my SO not being able to “handle me,” which bothered him a bit. These sort of situations don’t happen too often, but every now and again.
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no slappz
I am just telling what she said. In fact, I had another good friend who WAS blond, very thin, and beautiful, and my other friend (the one with the black boyfriend) didn’t get along with her. My blond friend did nothing to her, my dark haired friend simply didn’t like her. I suspected she was jealous of my blond friend. It was easier for my blond friend to get male attention and so forth, so I think it was a competition thing. I always felt as if I was in the middle since I cared for both of them. This was when I was in college and the dark haired friend and I shared an apartment together. I don’t know the dating habits of white men either. It is just that my dark haired friend obsessed over weight. I think she felt that men ( especially white men) would not accept her unless she was very skinny.
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ugh, I hate the “you can’t handle her” comment. What is that about?
When I was with my so, the only comments that we got were from white men, believe it or not. My so was Asian and white men had a problem with me being with him and was vocal about it. Though, we did get some positive feedback.
Jeri,
Your dark haired friend was very jealous. Sounds like the blonde did nothing to her. Poor woman.
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With regard to what happens in London, it all depends on perspectives and who you are going to listen too.
Take a White woman perspective then you will definitely not get your position.
If you a Black male for his own perspective. you will get something different.
Now that I think about it no Non White male with his (new choice of ) partner would think of her as ‘unattractive, over-weight etc’.Since ultimately that would speak volumes of the males choice. Attempting to do a bit of Fanon psychoanalysing here ha ha
And I think this would be the same for any male of any ethnic group also, if you follow.
This is why I said I did not find this in London, leaving aside that I also disagreed with the fundamental assumption.
Your position even though you are speaking about unattractive, overweight White women etc is in fact paradoxically speaking more about the Non-White men mindset etc who pick up these type of White women.
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Jeri,
I agree.
You’re right, whites for the very most part, marry, date and procreate with each other and seem to like it that way.
Ditto for blacks.
So then how come we debate over the mindset of the relatively few black people who date, marry and procreate with whites and not versa? That’s all I was throwing out there.
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islandgirl, I think the perception is that black men are the most masculine, with white men next, and Asian men last. In informal settings I’ve heard white men make comments about the “capabilities” of Asian men.
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Natasha,
You’re right about the insecurity of some non-thin white women. You ever heard of the comic Lisa Lampanelli? Part of her comedic shtick is how “she bangs the black.” In a radio interview, she admitted that the reason she pursues black men is because at her size (she was a healthy, not fat woman), she couldn’t get an attractive white man. Yet, she could get a black man. I think she said something around the lines of, “At my size, I could either end up with Jon Goodman or LL Cool J.” LOL. This lead me to wonder if her interest in black men was genuine or based on an insecurity. Like she was settling for “less” because she feels “less”.
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J, some black men and non-black Latino men tend to appreciate a curvier body on a woman. What some white men see as overweight they see as just right. So, yes, it speaks to their mindset in that sense.
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“This lead me to wonder if her interest in black men was genuine or based on an insecurity. Like she was settling for “less” because she feels “less”.:
I was thinking the same thing in terms of ww/bm relationships. I think that these white women go with whomever approaches them. I rarely see a Heidi Klum (irl) with a black man. But this is not to say that this is true in every case.
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However, your words in your initial post does not refer to ‘curvier body’, nor does it convey this suggestion
You wrote:
“And, in my experience the white women who are rejected due to their weight/looks tend to be bitter and disheartened, and take up with non-white men to ease their insecurity about attracting men”.
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mynameismyname
I think that black people assume that blacks who marry white all suffer from self-hatred. We are concerned that large numbers of blacks are going to marry whites simply because they believe that whites are superior or better somehow. Unfortunately, it is easy to assume that because many black people tend to make blanket statements about blacks of the opposite sex, such as black women are too controlling or black men are too irresponsible. We don’t want to blacks to be divided due to self hatred or insecurities. Many black people ( black women) in particular wonder why it is so difficult to find a compatible black mate. Black women wonder if black men consciously or subconsciously prefer white women. Some black men also wonder about the same thing, if black women who marry white men secretly hate black men. It often bruises the ego to see someone of the opposite sex with a white person. It sometimes brings out feelings of insecurities, jealousy, and resentments. That is why we examine over and over again the motives of blacks who marry/date interracially.
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Mynameismyname
” So then how come we debate over the mindset of the relatively few black people who date, marry, and procreate with whites and not versa?”
My last comment was in response to that question.
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J, my original statement was referring to their being rejected due to their weight. So, yes, it did refer to a curvier body. What else would it be referring to?
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Thanks I am glad you clarified this.
Would you like to clarify also what does it say for non-white men who go on to choose such women??
…which was the point I raised earlier
in regard to:
And, in my experience the WHITE WOMEN who are REJECTED due to their WEIGHT/LOOKS tend to be BITTER and DISHEARTENED =, [THEY GO] and take up with
NON-WHITE MEN…??
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mynameismyname, yes, I’ve heard of Lisa Lampanelli and her spiel. And the interest in black men for women like her is pretty obviously based in insecurity.
I rarely see a Heidi Klum (irl) with a black man. But this is not to say that this is true in every case.
I’ve seen a few. I’m friends with a very goodlooking black male/white female couple, and the woman is blonde and thin. The guy is quite a catch, so I could see why she chose him over others. But I agree; in my experience that is not the norm of this pairing.
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J, it means they like women with more weight, which I said in my first response to you.
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Thanks…
then what about the issue of looks since you also mention this too?
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I was pretty much referring to weight when I mentioned looks. I don’t believe a standard can be put on beauty.
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Natasha
I agree. Black men, I think, are accepting of bigger women. Not necessarily fat women, but curvier women. Abagond discussed this alot when he talked about his preference for curvier women. He said that black men are more accepting of curvy women with big behinds, thicker thighs, etc, while white men tend to like extremely thin women, some so thin that these women look like teenage boys. Also, some people think that the fact the the women that they are with are white makes up for the fact that they are bigger and sometimes, not attractive. Meaning that as long as the women is white, it doesn’t matter what the women looks like, her “whiteness” makes her better. People assume that the black man is just obsessed with ” whiteness” no matter what. I am not saying I agree, I am just saying what I have heard people say.
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It’s true. White privilege manifest itself in the mating game. Whites are automatically given free affirmative action points for being white when it comes to mate selection. Just from my casual observance, you will virtually NEVER see a white man with an unattractive black woman. When white men go for black women, they end up with those that are thin and quite pretty, even if that white man isn’t much to look at himself. An average looking white man will usually end up with an average looking white woman, but if he goes for a non-white woman, his whiteness will leverage him a better looking partner than he would be able to get if he just stuck to white women. I don’t know how many times I’ve seen a homely looking white man with a modelesque looking black woman. Now given that most women are hypergamous, you are led to believe that racial dynamics have taken away some attraction points for her and added some for the white man, so that a homely white man and a beautiful black woman are considered “equal” value. Put it this way, I don’t think I’ve ever in my life seen an attractive white man with an unattractive black woman. Yet you see attractive black men with unattractive white women all the time. That’s subtle white supremacy for you.
With regards to WW/BM, while I’m not going to say I never see attractive WW dating BM, I have seen many times a black man that was fairly attractive dating a white woman that was way below him on the looks scale. And I think, he’s a decent looking guy, he could’ve got a nice looking black girl, but is dating an ugly white girl. When I see that, you can almost be sure he’s dating her *because* she’s white. Like I said, there’s always exceptions, like Seal and Heidi Klum where a not so great looking black guy is with an attractive white woman, but in his case, I think his money and fame makes up for it. If he were Seal the taxi driver, he wouldn’t be with her. Ditto for tiger Woods. These white women he runs with wouldn’t be giving Tiger the time of day if he didn’t’ have money.
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this reminds me of Eldridge Cleaver. http://www.nathanielturner.com/soulonice.htm
The two are singing in the same choir to me, only one didn’t end up marrying a white woman.
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I would beg to differ Fanon did not rape a White woman
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“Every time I embrace a black woman I’m embracing slavery, and when I put my arms around a white woman, well, I’m hugging freedom. The white man forbade me to have the white woman on pain of death…. I will not be free until the day I can have a white woman in my bed. ”
(Eldridge Cleaver) see the similarities??
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Tulio,
I agree with you about Seal and Tiger. Money talks pretty loudly in terms of their love lives.
Calling Seal “not so great looking” is a matter of opinion, of couse. He’s a former model and I have heard some women sing his praises in terms of his physical. Yet, again, that’s neither here nor there.
Same goes for the white women who do date/marry black men. We may not think they look like much but then again, they may be beautiful to their mate.
I don’t fully agree with average-to-ugly-looking white man being with gorgeous black women. Some of the black women I’ve seen with white men weren’t traditionally attractive. Yet, again, that’s all in the eye of the beholder.
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tulio
I agree with you. Whenever you see a white man with a black women, the women is very attractive. I have seen white men with unattractive black women a couple of times, but that is rare. But it is common to see a black man with an unattractive white women. Again, many people believe that the black man is with her because of her “whiteness”. If that same white women had been black, that black man would not give her the time of day. But because she is white, she is more acceptable to him. The same thing may apply to some black women. It could be possible that some black women may think that having a white man is great no matter what. This is what I was saying before. Some black people are concerned that black people are giving preferential treatment to whites. That is why so much attention is given to blacks who date/marry whites. We are concerned that blacks have a conscious or subconscious desire for whites simply because they are white and nothing else. Blacks ( especially black women) feel that they cannot compete if “whiteness” alone is the reason for many blacks dating interracially.
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mynameismyname
You are right when you say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Maybe the black men who are with these women see these women as attractive. Being bigger doesn’t necessarily mean ugly to alot of these men. I am just saying that many people think that black men are just overpreocupied with white skin, giving an overweight white women an advantage over ANY black women.
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I see the perspective…thanks.
As a member of the BPP, Cleaver would have held Fanon in the highest of regards…
So I guess that is where the similarities may arise.
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It ought to be stated that this article and column is very close to ‘Black Nationalist/African centred thought…and hence the position they adopt.
I guess you can could put Fanon, Cleaver and a host of other Black activists and/or scholars in teh same box.
At some point down the line in the quest for ‘Black liberation’. I sincerely believe the question will arise:
Can one be Black and a Christian, as it is for the issue can a Black activist (note here not Nationalist) having partners outside of their race??
And if one chooses to being a Christian then is one ‘selling out’
Until that day arrives…back to the topic at hand ha ha ha
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tulio and jeri, I can only speak for myself and my relationship, but my SO is certainly not homely. He is 6’3, slim and athletic build (former basketball center), broad shoulders, and gorgeous bone structure. I think we would probably get fewer dirty looks if he were homely though.
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I hate the notion that Christianity isn’t a “black,” religion. I hate that. Ethiopia has one of the oldest sects of Christianity in the world and it didnt’ get there by european missionaries. Also Christianity’s origins are not traced back to europe in the least. Sure, modernized, institutionalized Christianity you could link to europe, but the origins are within Africa/the middle east. So, yes I think you can definitely eb black and Christian.
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“while white men tend to like extremely thin women, some so thin that these women look like teenage boys.”
That’s total nonsense. Just because white men like women who are thin, doesn’t mean that they look like teenage boys. Why is it that people equate thin with teenage boys. That shows an insecurity as well.
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I think that the general standard of what’s “acceptable” to like, in terms of weight or body type, is changing somewhat. I go to a very White school, and the White guys tend to chase “petite” women with curvy features. (Yes, you can be thin and curvy.) Some of my friends and I have a similar(ish) body type: thin with some curves (I’ve had people say I look thinner than they expected from looking at my pictures, since I have a bigger butt/thighs than your average thin girl–blame my dad’s side! :-P), and the White guys will step on their best friend’s head to get to us. I would say we range from what I believe IslandGirl looks like (I’m guessing you have the same body shape as my friend, but taller) to me being the “biggest”. Obviously that’s not very big, but I think in the case of body shapes, the “average” Black girl will “win”, since you are more likely to be thin and curvy when you are Black than when you are White.
I think every interracial couple gets the most looks from their counterparts (i.e., from BM and WW when you are a BF/WM couple). My boyfriend attracts a lot of Black girls, oddly, but I don’t see them giving us dirty looks as often as the other 2 groups do. I agree with Natasha that people wouldn’t care if the guy or girl were considered unattractive.
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Did you know that the Ethiopian Chruch was always under the sovereignty of the Roman Church because of teh Roman Empire?
I remember listening to Mutaburaka talking about the shock of his life when he discovered how Eurocentric the Ethiopian church/christainity and religion is and has always been.
Its our perspective looking retrospectively makes us view it otherwise.
However, nevertheless I respect and accept your position.
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Islandgirl,
I agree 100%–I tend to hear the “teenage boy” tripe from women more than men, probably because they (men) can’t deny that they love us. 😉
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Peanut
I agree. You can be a Christian and be black. Being a Christian does not mean you are selling out. What makes you a sell out is when you hate and disciminate against your own people. And you are right, Ethiopia has one of the oldest Christian churches in the world. There is nothing in the Bible that justifies racism or anti-black behavior, so no, being a Christian is not selling out.
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Natasha
I am not saying that white men or white women are all necesarily unattractive when they are with black people. Mynameismyname is right when he says that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. No I am saying that some people believe that black people give preferential treatment to white people so that if the person is overweight, it doesn’t matter to the black person because that person is white. If that same overweight person was black, that black person who is involved in an interracial relationship wouldn’t give that overweight person the time of day. In other words, the “whiteness” of that person is considered more important than anything else.
jasmin and island girl
I don’t think that thin women necessarily look like teenage boys. Many women who are thin are quite shapely and look nothing like men. But there are some thin women who do lack a shape and some people think that white men would prefer those women over a larger shapely women simply because she is thin. In other words, some men have an obsession with extremely thin women.
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This is an interesting subject, and too bad Fanon’s chapter wasn’t as inspiring as we hoped to be.
Abagond: Does this have anything to do with the black buck stereotype? Or are you going to do a separate post about it?
I am sorry that I, as a white woman can’t contribute more to this discussion. As you all know I don’t have any experience with non-white people and any of my answers could be purely theoretical ones. I just want to confirm: many (most!) white men prefer very skinny women, so those of us that are thick are often considered unattractive. If other groups of men (black, latino) consider us attractive, than dating them seems like a logical step. After all, everybody wants to be wanted and being with a man who truly finds you attractive is a much better thing than to be “tolerated” because of how you look. Yes, there’s more than physical attraction in a relationship, but like I said, being with a man who truly finds you attractive is a good thing, and if more non-white people think this way, it’s a logical step to be with one of them. Isn’t it?
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lol at Jasmin! That sentiment does seem to come more from women than men, with the exception of men like Abagond.
Natasha and Jasmin, when you are out, you probably get admiring looks from black women. I’ve seen black women literally go up to a wm/bw couple and make positive remarks. One woman said that she wished she could be in a IR relationship to this couple. She actually chased them down. This was in Chicago.
Also, this must be pointed out. Just because a woman is larger, or not thin, does not mean she is shapley.
Larger women don’t have the monopoly on curves.
ALSO, let white men be attracted to whom they want. If there tastes are a thinnner woman, like Abagond always points out, you can’t help who you find attractive.
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Also, some people are so obsessed with thinness, that if a woman’s ribs were showing, she would still be considered attractive by some people. Some people believe that white people’s obsession with thinness can go too far. That being OVERLY thin is considered attractive, even when it is not healthy. So yes of course, thin women can be shapely, no one is saying that they are not, but you can’t tell me that being attracted to a women who is so thin that she looks anorexic is healthy. And even black people are becoming overly obsessed. I know a black girl who wants to be thin so badly that she throws up everyday. She threw up so much that her asophagus was turned inside out. So I am talking about an OBSESSION with thinness, even when the woman clearly doesn’t look attractive.
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Islandgirl,
Lol, I just call it like I see it. Men know better, because they will talk about not liking X while still going after it. (Just like I called out Abagond for liking a certain “type” of thick woman which still doesn’t match the “average” bigger American woman.) You hear so few men say the “teenage boys” thing because they’d be hypocrites for saying that and then chasing thin women. That doesn’t mean thin women are “better” than bigger women, but most men go after smaller women. It’s the same thing with hair–how many men say they hate weaves yet drool over Beyonce? Um, hello? 😉
For the record, I don’t think bigger women are looking for the “sympathy” of men. You know, that whole “Sorry for ya!” attitude. More men who are so anti-“teenage boys” should check their own tastes, because it’s most likely they are pursuing these “teenage boys” with a vengeance.
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Well, in my opinion men (at least men in my culture) are obsessed with thin women. I do think most of the cultures dislike fat women- but what is considered fat varies a lot. I do believe black and Latino people have different standards when it comes to what is “fat” and I do believe many white people (or white culture all across the world- especially in my part of the world) is obsessed with skinny women. I can give you the list of women who are considered overweight by my culture’s standards and you’d be surprised (I think).
Also, I agree with Jasmin and Islandigirl- women are often worse than men when it comes to being mean to other women.
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islandgirl
I disagree with you about it being okay for white men to be exclusively into thin women. Being thin is healthy, no doubt about it, but how thin a person should be is the question? There is nothing wrong with having a little meat on your bones. If you are extremely heavy, I can see the problem. But when a whole group of men reject women just because they are not a size 1, that is not good. It encourages women to go to extremes to loose weight such as anorexia and bulimia. My dark haired white girlfriend was borderline anorexic. She even told me she threw up a few times. Again, I am going to say that this woman was not overweight. She was normal, but she felt rejected by white men. It is not a coincedence that the majority of women who are bulimic and anorexic are upper middle class white women. No one should have to live under that pressure. If black men are more lenient when it comes to weight, then that is a good thing, as long as it doesn’t encourage obesity.
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Mira
I agree with you. Every women wants to feel attractive. If black men are more accepting of bigger women, then I don’t blame bigger white women for being with black men.
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islandgirl, we do tend to get positive reactions from black women. Many smile and are very friendly, and one girl, I’m guessing she was around fifteen, came up to us and said “Awww, you guys are so cute!”, made a few other positive comments, and kept waving at us after she walked away. My female relatives weren’t so enthused though, and neither were my two closest black female friends.
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With regard to:
…I agree with you. Every women wants to feel attractive. If black men are more accepting of bigger women, then I don’t blame bigger white women for being with black men.
There just something about this that seems ‘patronising’ to
‘bigger white women’ and ‘black men’ in much of the discussion here
I am finding it all abit confusing here…
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J
I’m saying that I don’t blame heavier white women for being with black men. If I were a heavy white women and I was desperate for love, and I couldn’t find it with white men, I guess I would go to a black man myself. I am puting myself in her position. It makes sense. Just like many black women are considering marrying white men because they are having a hard time finding a black men. You tend to broaden your options when you find yourself dissapointed with the men in your own race. So I am simply agreeing with what Mira has to say.
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And even though you have re-worded and tried to re-explain it still sounds ‘condescending’ and ‘patronising’
…and this is the point I was alluding to much earlier.
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J
And the point, I am making is that I happen to like Mira and I understand where she is coming from. If I want to sympathize with her situation, that is my business.
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jeri, not saying that this is your argument, but I am not with my SO because I can not find a black man. Black men approach me all the time, and the majority of the men I’ve been in relationships with in the past were black. I’m with my SO because we are compatible, we have similar interests and outlooks on life, I can talk to him about anything, and he is loving and kind. Essentially, I met a great guy who happened to be white.
Just wanted to clear that up. Most people I run into think that I am with my SO because either I am not interested in black men or I can’t find a good black man. Both of which are far from the truth.
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J
What? You have a problem with a black and a white women sympathizing with one another? Well I have had several white female friends, many I care deeply for . Mira seems like a nice person. I like her. If I want to understand her feelings, that is my business. Not yours.
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I never said you cannot sympathise with Mira or anyone else here.
The issue is whether your, words, tone and/or sentiments is condescending and patronising to ‘bigger White woman’
or ‘Black men.
This is a valid question and/or matter to be raised
even if you may not like this aspect of your intent being discussed
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Well, this is true, but I am not trying to imply unattractive women want to feel attractive (yes, this is true), and I am not talking about black/Latino men accepting unattractive white women just because they are white.
I am talking about twisted white culture standards.
I am not overweight. I am short, yes, and my weight and MBI index are normal (even closer to the thin group than overweight group). I simply have curves (or, should I say, I have butt and WHR of around 0.62). I am shaped like, say, Brianna Francisco, not like Gwyneth Paltrow OR Roseanne Barr (to follow Abagond’s examples). Of course I am not attractive as those women, but I am talking about body shape. What I’m saying is, I- and women of the same shape- arenot considered “curved” or “thick” in my culture- we are considered fat, end of story. Which also means unattractive- end of story. I am not a hottest girl and I might not be particularly attractive, but I am not fat or overweight.
I am talking about the women like me. Those who are healthy, but their bodies are just shaped differently than white culture claims to be attractive. Many attractive women (well, ALL of the attractive, thick women on Abagond’s lists) would be considered fat in my culture, and it looks like white culture in general shares the same attitude.
But it looks like black men and Latino men think differently. They don’t share the same standards. Perhaps that’s because many women in their culture, family, their mothers, perhaps- are thick, not skinny, so they are used to this body shape. If black men and Latino men find you attractive (as opposite of- fat), of course you would date them. At least that’s the way I see it. If you are a curved woman (I am not talking about being “bigger” or overweight!)- why would you want to date a man that is into skinny women anyway? Once again, if more black guys find you attractive than the white guys, of course you want to date them.
I have nothing against thin women- but standards of white beauty are really twisted. Of course I believe thin women should date men who find them attractive. Yes, it’s not really about physical attractiveness, but we all want to be wanted and not “tolerated”.
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Natasha
I don’t believe that all black women are with white men for that reason. I was simply saying that some black women are with white men to broaden their options. Many black women feel that it is hard to find a good mate, so they are broadening their options. I never said that ALL black women who are in interracial relationships are like this, just some.
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jeri, I know you weren’t saying that. That was more directed towards anyone who might be thinking that was the case.
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^^^
Right, you appear to have a healthy interracial relationship. (At least on your part). You’re not with a white man based on preconcieved notions or any type of fetish. You met a nice guy who you clicked with. He happened to be white. That’s how all relationships could happen.
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J
Why are you questioning my intent? Why do you care in the first place? I am going to say it again. I like Mira so I agreed with her. It just that simple.
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Also, I was trying to state here my own reasons- or, my theoretical reasons- for dating a non-white man. Like I said, have no experience. I never dated a non-white person and I married a white man who is into thick women.
I was just trying to present my own reasons. It’s not really about accepting “the ugly girls that nobody wants” (though that’s also an important subject), I am just saying everybody wants to date people a) they find attractive and b) people who find them attractive. Simple as that. And yes, I know my attitude might be different, because I don’t live in a multiracial culture, but I don’t see why white men would be my “target group” in the first place. I am not saying I am not attracted to white people (I am, but only to specific types of white people- as shallow as that sounds), and if black men/Latino men fit my preference, of course I would consider them. Also, if I fit their idea of an attractive woman, but not twisted white men idea of an attractive woman, of course they would consider me. It’s logical. I don’t see it as pathetic, but I know it’s just my opinion and my situation (indeed, I am not attractive by my culture’s standards so I admit that influences my opinion on this matter).
Other white women, especially those living in multiracial society (and society with racial issues) can, and do, have different reasons. Yes, some date outside their race to “rebel”, or because they believe in penis stereotype about black men. On the other hand, I do believe there are white women who don’t have any problems attracting white men- but are attracted to non-white men for whatever reason.
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With regard to:
“Why are you questioning my intent? Why do you care in the first place? I am going to say it again. I like Mira so I agreed with her. It just that simple.”
Without stating the obvious.
Nothing that you say here changes the fact, which is after all a discussion board to discuss peoples’ views, opinions, words, intent etc…and/or even question them, if people so wish.
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jeri,
Thanks for your kind words.
I am very interested in these issues and, while I dislike talking about personal stuff, I had to talk about my experience here. Sometimes it’s not easy talking about this stuff.
I don’t want to sound like someone who says “go for anybody who consider you attractive!” That’s not the good thing to do. I think we should all think about ourselves, our needs and, why not, our preferences first. I don’t think that dating non-white people is a good option for a curvy white woman who is not attracted to non-white people (for so many reasons). But if a woman has a preference for “darker” men AND those groups of people find her more attractive than white men- then it’s a logical thing to date those men.
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Mira
I understand where you are coming from. My friend didn’t fit the idea of beauty to some men, and like you, I think she had a preference for darker men. It was just easier for her to be with a black man.
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jasmin: ” and the White guys will step on their best friend’s head to get to us. “……I just bet they would , Jasmin
tulis : ” I don’t know how many times I’ve seen a homely looking white man with a modelesque looking black woman. “….you got to stop following me around , tulio
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And concluding my point:
1. And, in my experience the white women who are rejected due to their weight/looks tend to be bitter and disheartened, and take up with non-white men to ease their insecurity about attracting men.
2. I agree with you completely and I never looked at it that way. I was always curious as to why so many larger white women were with black men. I just assumed it was because black men like large women. Never considered that it could be due to insecurity on the part of the ww.
3. This lead me to wonder if her interest in black men was genuine or based on an insecurity. Like she was settling for “less” because she feels “less”.:
I was thinking the same thing in terms of ww/bm relationships. I think that these white women go with whomever approaches them
4. yes, I’ve heard of Lisa Lampanelli and her spiel. And the interest in black men for women like her is pretty obviously based in insecurity.
5. Also, some people think that the fact the the women that they are with are white makes up for the fact that they are bigger and sometimes, not attractive. Meaning that as long as the women is white, it doesn’t matter what the women looks like, her “whiteness” makes her better. People assume that the black man is just obsessed with ” whiteness” no matter what. I am not saying I agree, I am just saying what I have heard people say.
6. I am just saying that many people think that black men are just overpreocupied with white skin, giving an overweight white women an advantage over ANY black women.
7. I agree with you. Whenever you see a white man with a black women, the women is very attractive. I have seen white men with unattractive black women a couple of times, but that is rare.
8. I am not saying that white men or white women are all necesarily unattractive when they are with black people… No I am saying that some people believe that black people give preferential treatment to white people so that if the person is overweight, it doesn’t matter to the black person because that person is white.
9. Every women wants to feel attractive. If black men are more accepting of bigger women, then I don’t blame bigger white women for being with black men
10. I’m saying that I don’t blame heavier white women for being with black men. If I were a heavy white women and I was desperate for love, and I couldn’t find it with white men, I guess I would go to a black man myself. I am puting myself in her position. It makes sense
And I raise the issue of condescending and patronising with regard to the above.
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J
You raised the issue when I agreed with Mira. It seems to me that you have some issue with me agreeing with her for some reason. It makes me wonder what YOUR intent is.
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mynameismyname, thanks! Regarding him and his views about race/ethnicity, yes, we’ve still got a few issues we need to work out. But he is open and willing to learn, and he’s come far (not that he was terrible to begin with). That’s all I can ask for.
J, get over it. A person’s experience is their experience. If you haven’t had the same experience, that’s fine. No need to get all worked up about it.
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I am afraid you think the worst…
You would see that I first raised this issue with someone else – not you. Please take a re-look!!
It is not the person which interests me. Hence why I have not called any names
I am interested whether the 10 point bullet plan above is actually condescending and patronising to
bigger White women and/or Black men…
I think it is!!
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And just because I think that some black men are with white women for the wrong reasons, doesn’t mean I can’t see the situation from the white women’s perspective. I will say it again, If I was a white woman, and I found my shape was not accepting to white men, and I thought black men were attractive, I guess I would date a black men also. But it doesn’t change the fact that SOME black people date white people due to the fact that they are white and white alone. Someone brought up the issue as to why white people would want to date black people. He felt too much attention was given as to why black people date white people. He wanted to know why white people date blacks. I came up with an explanation for both. I said that some white women date black men because they felt rejected by white men, and that some black people date white people purely because they are obsessed with “whiteness” No, this doesn’t apply to all people just some. But I came up with explanations that I have heard other people say. So what is so patronizing about this.
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J, no, it is not condescending. Simply stating an observation about someone is not putting them down. You’re being paranoid and reading too much into statements. It is very telling that of all the comments here that could possibly be misconstrued as disparaging, you only chose to pick up these ones.
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@J
One thing I don’t get here is why are you discussing this with jeri if you have problem with the things I wrote? After all, I am the white woman here and if you think there’s a problem in my attitude/beliefs why don’t you discuss them with me (instead of arguing with jeri for agreeing with me).
Maybe the way I addressed this issue is the problem. I didn’t want to write about my feelings towards non-white men since I never met one and any discussion is basically a theoretical one. But if you like it this way, I can only say I am attracted to (what I call “darker”) men- dark hair, dark eyes, skin that is not too pale. Which means I am attracted to certain types of white men (Mediterranean, for example), but since many non-white people share the same features I could be attracted to them too. So, speaking in Abagond’s terms, it looks like I’m just wired that way. So it’s not like I’m sad for not living in a multiracial culture- I married a man that I love (who is white, but “dark white” and likes thick women), and I am not angry or bitter and I don’t see myself as ugly or pathetic.
I just wanted to say that yes, standards of white beauty are often pretty sick and it’s not just impossible for a non-white woman to fit them, but it’s very difficult for many white women to fit those standards. Yes, I know it’s not the same (being white is still considered better in any multiracial society), but I am just saying white standards o beauty are sick.
Seriously, people the whole “why would X women date Y men” issue is sick. Sick is because it is seen as a form of pathology. It’s sick even more because usually (because of race issues) it IS a form of pathology, self-hate or whatever.
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J
And as for you saying that you didn’t call out names, you used my comment. So what am I supposed to think?
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See if you can follow this please, utilising your own words
1. “I think that some black men are with white women for the wrong reasons”,
Q. How would you know which of the Black men are with the White women for the wrong reason…?
Would it be based on the loftier position that she is overweight, worried about her looks as the determing factor??
2. “[It] doesn’t mean I can’t see the situation from the white women’s perspective”
I will not say anything at this point but we move on
3. “I will say it again, If I was a white woman, and I found my shape was not accepting to white men”
What about those White men who may like a woman’s face than her body and/or personality even? Or put it another way a White woman who is very attractive…
Again how can one make the assumption that it is the White woman’s body which is the problem, when there could be so many other variables? However, you take the loftier position and assume that there may be something intrinsically wrong with her shape
4. “and I thought black men were attractive, I guess I would date a black men also”…
…but what does this say about the Black man who is willing to take what the White man does not want in your analysis??
Notwithstanding if we see the bullet points:
1. And, in my experience the white women who are rejected due to their weight/looks tend to be bitter and disheartened, and take up with non-white men to ease their insecurity about attracting men
2. Never considered that it could be due to insecurity on the part of the ww.
3. This lead me to wonder if her interest in black men was genuine or based on an insecurity…I was thinking the same thing in terms of ww/bm relationships. I think that these white women go with whomever approaches them
7. I agree with you. Whenever you see a white man with a black women, the women is very attractive. I have seen white men with unattractive black women a couple of times, but that is rare.
which ultimately is to deny the humanity of the ‘big White women’ and the Black male by complicity.
All of the above is condescending and patronising.
What I find very ironic is that here is a post discussing inter-racial relationship. Many were coming on here and dissing Fanon, people suggesting he had it in for Black women, he is neurotic and so on and so forth.
What those comments clearly show in my humble opinion much of what Fanon said is true, except this times the roles are reversed with the ‘Black man’ being in the place of Mayotte, and the ‘big White woman’ as the periphery figure who is denied her ‘humanity’, since she is complicit with the Black male.
Hmmm!!!
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Mira I raised my concerns long before Jeri. I had said so already to Jeri.
Its got nothing to do with you at all.
Hope this clarifies matters for you.
If not please see my first post at
on Tue 23 Feb 2010 at 18:14:43
“J
With regard to:
“And, in my experience the white women who are rejected due to their weight/looks tend to be bitter and disheartened, and take up with non-white men to ease their insecurity about attracting men”.
I have not found this to be the case in London.
and then proceed to read my subsequent thoughts”
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J, why are you so concerned what people think of this particular type of relationship? It’s only fair to ask, seeing as you are questioning everyone else.
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J
Lets get something straight. There are black men who have said that they were with white women because they were white women. I have also heard a couple of black women who were friends of mine who refused to date black men. So lets not pretend that this doesn’t happen. Also, I said that SOME PEOPLE think that some black men are with heavier white women simply because they are white. I didn’t say that I agreed myself. I said that blacks are concerned that some blacks date white people mainly because they are white. You also mentioned that if black men date these heavier white women, what does that say about black men? What do you think it says about them? I think it says that some black men are more accepting of heavier shapes and also it could be right what people say, that black men could be more forgiving of her because she is white. I and other people could be wrong in assuming that black men are obssessed with whiteness. It was just a suggestion. Why are you obsessing over this? You are really overeacting
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I do not have a problem with it. I raised the issue of condescending, patronising, denying the humanity of lets be honest the ‘fat unattractive White woman’ and also pot-shots at Black men directly, or indirectly by Black women.
The same issue Merrimay had alluded to but I would have never thought it would have manifested itself in this manner
Personally I think I have made my position very clear by my reasoning…
Now if you can show me by a process of reasoning etc, where my analysis is wrong etc. Then I am more than willing to hear any such viewpoint.
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J, so why didn’t you take tulio, for example, to task for stating that it’s his experience that homely white men date attractive black women? Isn’t this “condescending and patronizing” to white men and the black women who date them?
Stop pretending that you’re impartial and merely raising a point. No one buys it.
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The reason I did not take Tulio to task because I think he is a White person, so I am not surprised by his comments.
This is not meant to be a slur at Tulio either, its just my perception of him, and the things he says. I could well be wrong in my assessment
However, when Black women come here and take pot-shots at Black men. Then I had to make a comment.
All the reference to the larger white ladies were veiled attacks inadvertently or otherwise at the ‘Black male’.
And unfortunately I think much of what has been said here really bespeaks of Fanon.
Forgive me Abagond – I hope you are taking note here, since you dismissed the chapter as a waste of space he he – only joking here!!
So I hope this has clarified…
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J,
The reason I did not take Tulio to task because I think he is a White person, so I am not surprised by his comments.
This is not meant to be a slur at Tulio either, its just my perception of him, and the things he says. I could well be wrong in my assessment
tulio has stated he is a black male several times.
However, when Black women come here and take pot-shots at Black men. Then I had to make a comment.
All the reference to the larger white ladies were veiled attacks inadvertently or otherwise at the ‘Black male’.
Maybe you interpreted them that way. But I think we can both agree that those who have made comments on the subject matter of this post are not responsible for your (mis)interpretation of their comments. Or vested interest in thwarting what you see as attacks on black men.
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J
I don’t think Tulio is white. He is black. And he said something similar to what I said. You are just being defensive. That’s alright. I don’t care. I have heard black men on other websites make fun of what a white man looked like when he was with a black women. I didn’t get angry at all. I just accepted it as human nature.
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And understand, something else, my comment about white men rejecting bigger women came directly from a white woman who was with a black man. This woman, like I said before, was my friend. So to come to the conclusion that I came to made sense to me. Most people know that white men are known for being into extremely thin women so why are we arguing about this?
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jeri, based on the comments he’s made on this blog, I believe tulio is black too.
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Kingdom Aksum & Christianity:
”
“The kingdom of Aksum (sometimes written as Axum, in English), founded more than 2000 years ago, is historically connected to the contemporary nation-state of Ethiopia. Ethiopia, which as we have learned [Module Seven B: History of Africa] was never colonized by outsiders, is the oldest continuous nation-state in Africa. In the fourth century C.E., the rulers of Aksum converted to Christianity after Christian travelers and traders brought the religion into the area from Egypt and western Asia. Over the next 1,600 years, a distinctively Ethiopian form of Christianity developed and became entrenched in Ethiopia. It is important to recognize that Aksum became a predominately Christian nation about the same time that the Roman Empire officially became Christian. This means that Christianity in this part of Africa was entrenched many centuries before Christianity was introduced into countries in northern and western Europe, areas that are normally associated with Christianity.”
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The attacks on Black men are plain and clear, as well as the big fat White woman who the Black male is willing to accept.
I think what has been said here thus far has been very clear.
I still can’t believe how correct Fanon is with regard to this post, and how Merrimay’s word would manifest itself in the way it did…??
As for Tulio, its not really important what s/he is?? I just gave my position.
I have never met him/her, s/he could be a very nice person and I am sure s/he is
However, all this is somewhat irrelevant, no offence to Tulio.
I was asked a question regarding the person behind the screen name Tulio and I gave a response regarding my actions.
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Thanks Peanut…
I will be honest with you when it comes to religion, I really do not like to discuss it with the ‘faithful’.
What you posted is accurate. However, what I would say here is that if you read between the lines you can get a tentative hint at what I was trying to say earlier to you.
I hope this answer will suffice…
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jeri, you wrote:
“I am just telling what she said.”
Nevertheless, based on her statements she is/was an insecure woman unsure of what really matters.
You wrote:
“In fact, I had another good friend who WAS blond, very thin, and beautiful, and my other friend (the one with the black boyfriend) didn’t get along with her. My blond friend did nothing to her, my dark haired friend simply didn’t like her.”
As H.L. Mencken said, the only people women hate more than men are other women.
YOu wrote:
“I suspected she was jealous of my blond friend. It was easier for my blond friend to get male attention and so forth, so I think it was a competition thing.”
That would do it.
You wrote:
“This was when I was in college and the dark haired friend and I shared an apartment together. I don’t know the dating habits of white men either. It is just that my dark haired friend obsessed over weight. I think she felt that men ( especially white men) would not accept her unless she was very skinny.”
It sounds as though she was overly worried about how she believed she appeared when naked. It also sounds as if she were unsure of herself in the sack.
That’s an unfortunate way to be. A little sexual confidence does a lot to magnify a woman’s appeal.
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J, it is more than obvious that you wish to protect the reputation of black men and/or white women. For whatever reason. And that is why you did not comment on tulio and jeri’s statements regarding the white male/black female dynamic, but instead honed in on the comments regarding black men and white women.
Case closed.
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Natasha
Thankyou. He is obviously biased concerning bm/ww relationships over bw/wm relationships. I am not shocked. Typical hypocritical behavior.
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I am not the person in a mixed relationship having the discussion here which alludes to Black men and White women by extension, who then thought Fanon was castigating all Black women, proceeded to mock him for his position…even though what Fanon said is true
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jeri, indeed. He’s probably been reading too much Fanon.
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jeri, you wrote:
“And understand, something else, my comment about white men rejecting bigger women came directly from a white woman who was with a black man.”
It is fair to say that — if given a choice — white men prefer women who are not “big.”
Where is the line drawn? Impossible to say. But fat white women usually marry white men. However, plenty of trim, well proportioned women become pregnant and never again get back to their previous pre-baby weight.
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BR, what does that mean, lol?
FWIW, I don’t judge people’s preferences as pathologies. So if I were a bigger woman, I wouldn’t applaud my boyfriend for being “nonconformist”–the logical assumption would be that he likes me because I am just that *fabulous* 🙂
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Lol, your perception is very wrong. You think I have nothing better to do with my time than post on blogs pretending to be a race other than I am? Think again, man.
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Where is the line drawn? Impossible to say. But fat white women usually marry white men. However, plenty of trim, well proportioned women become pregnant and never again get back to their previous pre-baby weight.
So true. It is kind of annoying listening to people carry on as if all White men are getting Victoria Secret’s Models.
Also Black men with fat White girls are mostly likely picking them instead of fat Black women, seeing how 78% of Black women are overweight or obese.
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J
I will say this. I did mention once that some black men have dated unattractive white women. I shouldn’t have said this. I later said that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and that these men may have seen these heavier women as attractive. I was simply saying what I have heard other people. The point I was making is that people say that black men and women are obsessed with white people, no matter what they look or act like. I don’t want to offend white women who are with or attracted to black men.
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Truth B. Told
Well, I don’t know if 78% of black women are fat (maybe 50%), but I will say that is the point I was making earlier. That black men who exclusively date white women, even thicker white women, would completely ignore that same woman if she was black.
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In my second to last statement, I meant to say that I was repeating what other people said.
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Well, I don’t know if 78% of black women are fat (maybe 50%
One source, the American Obesity Association say so
http://obesity1.tempdomainname.com/subs/fastfacts/Obesity_Minority_Pop.shtml
but I will say that is the point I was making earlier. That black men who exclusively date white women, even thicker white women, would completely ignore that same woman if she was black.
How do you know that? I see Black men with fat Black women all the time (if any many gets with a Black women, she will be fat 4 out of 5 times). Those men get credit for loving a sister with meat on her bones, and the vast majority of fat White women (as with most White women) are with White men. However, the minute a Black man gets with a fat white woman (or even a skinny one) bring on the psychoanalysis.
I get what J is trying to say. This unwanted fat white girl/accepting Black man is nothing more than yet another in a long line of shaming tactics designed to control the behavior of Black men.
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A person could be a couple of pounds overweight and that doesn’t mean they are necessarily “fat” i.e. appear to be so. Beyonce, Kim Kardashian, and other thick celebrities are probably overweight and yet not fat. So presenting those statistics as such is pretty misleading.
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A person could be a couple of pounds overweight and that doesn’t mean they are necessarily “fat” i.e. appear to be so.
You are absolutely right. I should have not used the word “fat”. “Fat” and being “not skinny” are not the same. It would have been more accurate if I would have typed “she will not be skinny 4 out of 5 times.”
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According to the statistics you presented 6 out of every 10 white women is “not skinny.” So the odds of being with someone who is “not skinny” vs. someone who is “skinny” favors the “not skinny,” no matter who the man chooses. But of course you realize that not being overweight does not mean one is skinny.
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So the odds of being with someone who is “not skinny” vs. someone who is “skinny” favors the “not skinny,” no matter who the man chooses
Exactly my point (and J’s) as to why the stereotype is not only condescending, but reeks of insincerity. If 6 out of 10 White women are “not skinny” and only a small portion of White women date/marry out, guess who is getting a majority of these “not skinny” women that White men supposedly don’t want.
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ughh this post got out of hand.
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I will admit I do find it very suspectful when people have racial preferences in mates. I tend to think a person’s facial bone structure determines attactiveness to me. More so than skin complexion and facial features.
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“mynameismyname, yes, I’ve heard of Lisa Lampanelli and her spiel. And the interest in black men for women like her is pretty obviously based in insecurity. ”
I remember seeing her stand up comedy one and said being raped by a black guy would be an upgrade. She was also dissing black women during her routine.
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the BMI isn’t always the most accurate measurement
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Interesting quote from Lisa Lampanelli:
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With regard to the quote by Lisa Lampanelli
“My problem is, I can’t get a good-looking white guy anymore, I just don’t have the looks to get that. I can get hot blacks, but also blacks are now starting to get uppity and go for the skinny white ones and the Asians, which is very offensive to me that they don’t stick with their roots — the chubby white girl”
This is exactly the point that I am raising.
From the White women perspective, she does not see herself as :
1. And, in my experience the white women who are rejected due to their weight/looks tend to be bitter and disheartened, and take up with non-white men to ease their insecurity about attracting men.
This is certain Black womens perspective on this board only.
Hence the quote:
“my problem is, I can’t get a GOOD-LOOKING WHITE GUY anymore” I just don’t have the looks to get that
2. I then went on to ask the question which has not been addressed from those who I have been in dialogue.
What does it then say off the Black male who goes for this White woman (irrespective of whether she is ‘rejected’ by her race), from those who I have been in dialogue??
Once again Lampanelli perspective is instructive:
“I can get hot blacks”,
which is obviously a rejection of much of the analysis put forward by the Black women here
and now here is the key part:
“but also blacks are now starting to get uppity”
Here Lampanelli is saying Blacks are uppity because instead of chasing ‘ugly white woman’ they have now delusions of grandeur to go for the archetypal feminine principle of beauty ie ‘ slim white woman’
3. For the first time this issue has been brought to the table on this post viz. The ‘large fat white woman’ is in fact ‘offended’ that the Black male is ignoring her, which is something he should NOT be doing anyway. And now to add insult to injury he is now desirous to extend his affections to another race of woman who are not even White but Asian
She then adds the caveat:
which is very offensive to me that they don’t stick with their roots — the chubby white girl!
So in the essence the Black males partner is the chubby white girl.
Hence my question to those I have been dialoguing what does it in fact say about the Black male, a point that the ladies on the board did not understand – or more importantly – did not want to address, but Tulio was perceptive enough to pick upon??
I have to thank you for that Tulio!!
Speaking of some of the women on this board. We have seen them vocal against Fanon, who in effect is representative of the ‘Black male’ or specifically the chance to atack the Black male .
For those who do NOT hold this position (ie black male bashing), then there silence on this issue is defeaning and speaks volumes of their thinking and I would aver their politics too.
Personally those ladies who have criticised Fanon in this respect are not revolutionist, and are in fact more representative of Mayotte, as described by Fanon. Unfortunately for those women here Fanon is that mirror of truth which is causing the problem, in the sense its forcing these individuals to crtitically look at themselves.
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With regard to your comments Peanut on the Kingdom of Aksum & Christianity
I forgot to add that there is another aspect to all this issue,
viz that Egypt, an African country became Christian at a very early date, with the first church being found around AD46.
However, because of our Euro -centred training we tend to think of Ethiopia as being the first. Since Ethiopia would off course at that time be a Black nation, whereas Egypt was not (or never was in fact)
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Well I am glad you have chosen the correct appendage ‘Truth B. Told’.
I wish I had chosen that name instead of the mundane J ha ha ha
Personally, its obvious what is going on here, and I will say it again. If anyone can refute what I said according
to what has gone so far. I am more than willing to look at that viewpoint.
However, there has not even been anything remotely close to a valid response thus far to reject my analysis.
Personally I find the whole affair very disconcerting
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The funny thing here is that we’re still talking about fat women. Nothing against fat women, but I wasn’t talking about them. I was talking about healthy women with normal weight who just happen to be shaped differently than today’s (and only today’s) white culture standards (while many non-whites don’t seem to have problem with it). Is Brianna Francisco fat? That’s what I’m talking about.
I really don’t understand why we’re still talking about fat women (in a way of unattractive women) when it’s really not about them.
Also, who cares about white men think? I mean, seriously. Who said that their opinion should be the most important one? After all, they, like most of the men on the planet, used to prefer women with hourglass figure not that long time ago, and nobody thought they liked overweight and “ugly” women. Today’s white standards of beauty are pretty twisted, that’s all. Why would any woman want to fit that standard? (unless it’s natural- which is also ok) You can’t make your hips or butt smaller (unless you undergo a painful surgery), so it’s pretty pointless. Plus, it looks like there are many men who do prefer hourglass figures, so it’s logical to be with one of them. And since it’s a greater chance for him not being white- well, the answer is clear. Of course, not any white woman should be in a relationship with a non-white man if he’s with her only because she is white- that’s given. Maybe I am naive, but I thought there are men who don’t think that way.
All I wanted was to point out twisted white culture beauty standards- especially those in my culture (that, as far as I can tell, are even more rigid than the American ones). Of course it’s not all about physical appearance and of course people date those who are not “their type” all the time. But attractiveness and preferences are important (let’s not pretend that they’re not), especially with men. That’s why I was talking about male preferences and not female ones.
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Never hear of Lisa Lampanelli but she sounds just like Kirsty Alley who said she feel disgusting and won’t let a man touch her yet she would b more than willing to be with Jamie Fox becasue black men like fat women.
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jasmin, im just teasing you, its obvious that you are beautiful ( like many of the other women with their pictures on here) and I really admire your casual “its really no big deal” atitude about dating white guys.That really is the way its suposed to be. Kudos to you.
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J, your conclusions are quite off. The information about Lampanelli and the quote by her support exactly what I said about some larger white women. So I have no idea why you are even using that to support your view, because it says the oppposite of what you believe to be true.
Your conclusion that people are “black male bashing” is very off. You want to believe that black women like to bash black men, thus you are “finding” such comments. Talk about confirmation bias.
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Well here is more evidence from this board. All comments bar one from is from black women some of whom would fit the Mayotte characterisation in one form or the other.
1. Franz Fanon is a flawed black civil rights leader, you want to know why, if you have read “Black skins White masks” you will know that his opinion of black women is horrendous, really offensive…I hate the man, he had no understanding of his fellow black woman.
2. I heard that Fanon hates black women too, but I would still like to read “Black Skin, White Masks” for myself (the only male quote)
3. It is sad that Fanon died so young. His views on black women, sucked
4. This coming from a man who married a white woman??… I was going to read this book, but it’s descending into unfounded nonsense….He wouldn’t stand a chance with these half-white women, being a black male, and part of the ‘n*$*er rabble’. His two examples are fictional. Please!
Just useless musings of a an aggrieved reject.
5. It’s irrelevant WHEN he married his white wife, but the sentiment must have simmered for a long time. Marrying white just sealed the deal….He’s accusing these [Black] women of purposely bleaching the color line ie when he infact did so himself. His real life discredits his writing
6. Hmm. I agree (with the above comment)
7. I try to forgive Fanon about this but it is hard…When he disses Mayotte, he disses his own grandmother and other his other female ancestors
8. Some black men have deep racially patriarchal issues. They feel that liberation has given them the right to marry anyone that they want but black women must marry black in order to procreate the race
9. You’ve got to be kidding me right? Fannon married a White woman but questions why Black females marry White men?…Is this for real?
10. When I hear CERTAIN BM make exceptions for their IRR’S with WW while pretending they have the right to dictate to/judge BW about their IRR’S with WM it smacks of HYPOCRISY/IGNORANCE/SEXISM
11. He’s preaching to black women (he knew them all did he?, or is he psychic as to read black women’s minds and their motives) that we must be insecure and calculating to be with white men..Black men on the other hand have nothing but noble intentions for marrying white, all in the name of love right?? What could have motivated this man to write such a book, where obviously the honor of black men and white women’s relationships are defended and cast in a better light. The same union that he just happens to find himself in later on. How fitting…??
12. …he (Fanon) sees black men and white women as a separate case from black women and white men
13. True, Fanon does see these two partner combinations as different in intent. Many people do even today. Fanon’s opinion–at least in this writing–is that bm/ww relationships are based on true love of each other as individuals, a more honest affection (it’s clear when you read the next chapter). And bw/wm relationships are based on the black woman’s self-hate & need to distance herself from all things black….Oh please. Is there an eyeroll emoticon here?… This man has got to be kidding. If this is actually what he is saying in this book, why is/was he being taken seriously instead of being ridiculed for this nonsense
14. Abagond (someone directing a question at him here) – Please just call Fanon out for what he was — a hypocrite!! Nothing more, nothing less…Not a fan.
15. What I don’t understand is why Fanon only discussed black women who are married to white men. Why not talk about black people, both men and women, who marry white people for the wrong reasons. I constantly hear black men who put down black women in favor of white women. Many black men say that white women are kinder, more patient, and more submissive. So what is the difference between a black man who puts down black women in favor of white women and a black women who puts down black men in favor of white men? Nothing…
16. So what Fanon is talking about is pure nonsense. Yes, there are black women who hate themselves, who want to be white, but to imply that this is a uniquely black women problem is just outrageous.
17. I agree..it seems that fanon is putting more focus and negativity on when a black women is with a white man.
18. Fanon married a white woman and then had nerve to talk about how whites keep him down…Pathetic and twisted…Another sad self-hating black man that allowed whites to brainwash him and go against his own people.
Hmmm!!
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Truth B. Told
This discussion got started where someone asked why do white people have an interested in blacks when it comes to dating. A couple of people stated that some white women have a hard time finding a white man because of looks/size/class. I agreed with them. I also said that I had a friend who admited that white men are obssessed with very thin and blond “barbie” type of women. She had a black boyfriend and I believe she was giving a reason why she preferred black men. I also said that I have heard some people say that black men preference in larger white women may have something to do with their whiteness, not just their size. I could be wrong about the obsession with whiteness. Maybe they are just more accepting of larger sizes. But bare in mind, I have heard one black man say that he would rather be with a bald, fat, white woman over any black woman anyday. I have heard black men put white woman on a pedestal as if they could do know wrong. I have heard black men say that black women are too fat, that they don’t take care of themselves, then turn right around and date a heavier white women. Bare in my that if you look back in my comments, I also said that some black women may also put white men on a pedestal. But I noticed that you seem particularly interested in my comments on black men and white women. Someone mentioned before that it seems that the men on here are biased. Tulio said the same thing about black women and white men. I think you are just embarrassed at the idea of black men dating heavier white women and you want to attack me for discussing it.
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J
What is the point you are trying to make? You giving these list of comments as if we are to come to a certain conclusion or whatever. The only thing I think most of the women were saying is that Fanon was being a hypocrite. Why divide the subject of interracial dating into two chapters. Why not just discuss black people who date white people for the wrong reasons, irregardless of gender. I don’t think any of the women would have had the same complaints if he had discussed it in one chapter as opposed to two. So once again, what is your point?
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J
And don’t say I am being a hypocrite, because I mentioned both black men and women who are involved in interracial relationships for the wrong reasons. In fact both Tulio and I said something close to the same thing about both black women and men. Once again, you and Truth B. Told are just embarrassed by this subject and you want to attack everyone for bringing it up.
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Truth B. Told
I agree with you that black men are accepting of larger women, and marry black women who are heavier, not just white women. But I still say that many men, both black and white, expect black women to be a “dime” while being more accepting of white women who would be considered too fat, not attractive, or not educated. I think that when you are black, you have to be twice as good, than if you were white.
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Truth B. Told
And having to be twice as good applies to both men and women.
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Lisa Lampanelli said:
“..my problem is, I can’t get a good-looking white guy anymore, I just don’t have the looks to get that. I can get hot blacks, but also blacks are now starting to get uppity and go for the skinny white ones and the Asians, which is very offensive to me that they don’t stick with their roots — the chubby white girl!”
The woman is an overweight comedienne, from the mold of Roseanne. While her comedy might have a basis in some societal realities, SHE is a loud-mouthed slob with no sex appeal.
If she is having sex with anyone — which is questionable — it is on an occasional basis that ends quickly because she has developed a profile of a woman who is a pin-cushion willing to drop her drawers for anyone. As a result, at this point in her life she looks like a sad, aging bag who is as despairing and alone as Roseanne.
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Lynette
I don’t think all black men and women are like this, just some. We have been talking about the motives of why some blacks are in interracial couples and I and other people brought up that some people are just infatuated with white people. But, no , that doesn’t apply to all people. As we know racism and colorism has affected some people’s mindsets. Do black people make other blacks work twice as hard? Some do and some don’t. It depends on the individual. So don’t let it trouble you too much. We live in a racist world, but you shouldn’t let it taint your perception of all people.
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The point I am making is this?
1. There are some who do not know their history – and hence the wrong critique of Fanon
2. There are some who ‘hate’ Black men for dating White women,
3. There are some who hate Black men, just like Mayotte, and in essence ‘hate’ themselves
4. Where are these same women on this board who were quick to dismiss Fanon, as if they are opposed to inter-racial relationship, but fail to discuss the matter when others on here take the high ground and are in inter-racial relationship??
5. However, what I find worrying is the many that have just gone with the consensus on Fanon, one of the most brilliant Black revolutionaries of the 20th century. As the Ansaars would suggest the ‘Black Devils’ have come amongst our midst to hi-jack the program
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@Truth be told & J
Do you want some fries with your whine?
Black male bashing – yes we all hate Black males here.
Believe it or not, some Black women are going to express their opinions, which differ from yours.
Get used to it. You’re not going to silence us with your whining.
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I am not trying to silence you. On the contrary. I want you to come out and state your argument – but just be ‘frank’ or woman enough ha ha ha – enough to tell it is a ‘grudge’, or any other adjective that you so choose to call it.
Equally, it would also be helpful if one is ignorant of a topic. then to state that also before going into a tirade.
In this way we can all know where we stand!!
Thank you for your honesty in the last post!!
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Lynette said:
“I’m not saying that this mindset applies to everyone dating interracially. However, when the goal is to pursue an interracial relationship because “white is better”, I find that quite disturbing.”
I agree with that – and I think Fanon would too.
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One of the things that’s so interesting about the above posts is that it seems that everyone agrees that there’s a sort of general consensus on “who’s hot” and “who’s not” which transcends racial frontiers.
But how could that be the case, given the very different types of body morphologies involved?
Also, this comment by J interests me:
Whenever you see a white man with a black women, the women is very attractive. I have seen white men with unattractive black women a couple of times, but that is rare.
It interests me because on OTHER sites I’ve heard people swear to exactly the opposite – to wit, that white guys only go out with really ugly black women.
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Lynette,
You took the words out of my mouth…as always. LOL.
I’m also interested in reading Fanon’s work. I have heard about it before but never pursued a copy. I didn’t know his views were so controversial and contradictory.
If one is in an IR relationship, it should happen accidentially or naturally (as should ANY type of romance). If you’re actively looking for someone of another race, you have issues. You’re basing a relationship off of perconcieved notions and fetishism. Not a genuine love connection.
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“One of the things that’s so interesting about the above posts is that it seems that everyone agrees that there’s a sort of general consensus on “who’s hot” and “who’s not” which transcends racial frontiers.
But how could that be the case, given the very different types of body morphologies involved?
Also, this comment by J interests me:
Whenever you see a white man with a black women, the women is very attractive. I have seen white men with unattractive black women a couple of times, but that is rare.
It interests me because on OTHER sites I’ve heard people swear to exactly the opposite – to wit, that white guys only go out with really ugly black women”.
I did not quite understand what you are saying here, about what is hot or not, can you try to explain it one more time.
Just to say that comment:
“Whenever you see a white man with a black women, the women is very attractive. I have seen white men with unattractive black women a couple of times, but that is rare”.
This was one of the comments from one of the ladies here,
not mine which I was referring to.
To be honest Thad the view that White men only go out with ‘ugly’ Blacks or any other race, or any other combination that you can think of speaks more about the perception of the person who is making the comment than what are the actual facts. Do bears this in mind, and it is one of the reason I found it necessary to have a go at the aforesaid.
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“You hear so few men say the “teenage boys” thing because they’d be hypocrites for saying that and then chasing thin women. That doesn’t mean thin women are “better” than bigger women, but most men go after smaller women. It’s the same thing with hair–how many men say they hate weaves yet drool over Beyonce? Um, hello?”
Jasmin,
Very good point! Sometimes I think that when men do say this about thin women, it is to please other women who they think may be disadvantaged (which in my eyes, they are not).
I do think that body type has a lot to do with dating and race. But one thing that is inaccurate is Latinos. Only specific types are into larger women. And only certain into smaller.
Natasha, I thought that you would have those types of reactions. When I’ve dated white, bw treat us that way as well. I have an extremely older relative (in her 80’s) who is absolutely in awe of one of my other relatives who married a white man. You would have thought that she married Michael Jackson. That’s all that she talks about. I’m like, it’s not that deep.lol
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“The reason I did not take Tulio to task because I think he is a White person, so I am not surprised by his comments.
This is not meant to be a slur at Tulio either, its just my perception of him, and the things he says. I could well be wrong in my assessment.”
I thought Tulio was white as well because he seems to like women who are mostly of Asian decent.
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BR,
Thanks! (I, like all women, love compliments.) IMO (and this may be unpopular), the most vocal complainers about IR dating in any form are those who feel rejected in some way. I’m not trying to promote the “Bitter Fat Girl” stereotype, but the reason it comes off that way is because the women who don’t have problems attracting men (whatever color they might be) never seem to be the ones with much to say about the “conspiracy” against Black women, or big women, or thin women, or whomever. So I think people like Lynette and MNIMN can (and do) make very valid points precisely because they don’t always start off with “Well, I can never get a [blank] man or woman so rant, rant, rant.” But the majority of the “vocal” people can usually be pigeonholed as just “having a chip on their shoulder.”
Side note: I must’ve been raised in some kind of magical utopia (along with a few other female commenters here), because neither I nor the vast majority of my girlfriends growing up (who were mostly Black) have ever had problems attracting men. I know we are fine and all (:-P), but this isn’t a group of supermodels I’m talking about. It wasn’t until I got to college (notably a predominantly White one) that I met a bunch of Black girls who a) said they had a hard time finding a man, b) were resentful of Black men with White girls or “Light-skinned chicks”, or c) equated girls who attract a lot of male attention with floozies. I’m from the most-segregated major city in the US, so it still surprised me that there’s this alleged “trend” of “single, lonely, bitter” Black girls.
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I hear you jasmin. I just got lambasted for having a fetish and called sick and degrading for answering a person who said she loves to see her brown skin rubbing on the brown skin of her mate. I just said I love to see my white skin and red hair rubbing against brown skin, dark brown skin and black skin, because there is a beautiful color contrast explosion, but I am taking care of my wife of 23 years . Its as though that counts for nothing and that we cant have sexual preferances, I have been with women of all races, but , quite a few of my relationships with women have been black
And another person jokingly sais I must be sexualy perverted for being very attracted to an incredible culture that has a very exiting and sensual black female dancing in near nude costume. Remember, its not a beauty contest with girls just walking around and smiling, Its very talented advanced dancers doing a hard dance to a relentless beat.
Its baffling, and that is why I admire your natural casual outlook. If any white boy traumatises your sensibilities to interracial dating, Ill come up and beat him up….(wink)
j I like your referance to how the militant civil rights movement people loved Fanon , but I must say, Ive seen far more white men with portly woman than any one. I think a lot of this stuff is media flaunted, like “what would Brad Pitt see in a woman? Must be dime thin…”. Real life plays out differant.
mmmm Eldredge Cleaver, wasnt he a guy that designed mens pants?
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This board is crazy B.R.
“You just do your own thing…”
Perhaps being in the UK I think you may have to explain the Eldridge Cleaver and trousers
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ha ha ha
I think Im betraying my age here, there was a phase a little later in Cleavers life where he had backed off the black movement and got involved in designing mens trousers with an apendage for the male genitals….
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I have to agree to Thad…Its very confusing
but I can sympathise with what Abagond has to contend with.
If this was a Black Nationalist board then I could understand the position adopted, but since its not, and not even remotely close to resembling one.
Sometimes I even get confused.
When I posted the who said what earlier on this post. I was very surprised, on how I missed the implications when it was stated that Fanon was dissing his grandmother and his female ancestor for marrying Jose.
A point you rightly picked up on Thad. Its just a pity I was half asleep for that duration to give you a hand ha ha ha
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ha ha , Thad
Yeah, I have to agree with you about Americans being hung up about race and sex.
I mean Im exposed to sensuality down here in Brazil that would be stomped on in the states. There is a big differance, hard to explain it to people who havent lived it.
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The “can’t get a man” thing doesn’t bother me so much as when the woman puts down other women out of insecurity. Like I cannot stand that. Like the example of when the dark-haired friend put down the blonde, ect.
It is not the other woman’s fault.
And yes, let be real, there are white men with fetishes. Just not ALL of them.
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Well, abagond, Ive said it before and Ill say it again, and Im dead serious, people pointing their fingers at me saying I have a fetish are the ones with the real fetish.
I dont accept that analysis, you can if you want, that is your right , I dont know if you do or dont , and it is my right to regect it outright
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Americans hung up on race and sex, I have to thank you with this blog for reminding me of what kinds of trains of thought go on in America still.
If you havent lived in a place that has sensuality down to a high leval, how can you know what Im talking about?
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But I noticed that you seem particularly interested in my comments on black men and white women. Someone mentioned before that it seems that the men on here are biased. Tulio said the same thing about black women and white men. I think you are just embarrassed at the idea of black men dating heavier white women and you want to attack me for discussing it.
I don’t think I “attacked” anyone, I was just pointing the holes in a common shaming tactic. I did not call anyone names, just backed up my arguments.
Secondly, I am biased. I am a Black man and I am tired of hearing about how “damaged” I may possibly be for just being a normal red-blooded man who is attracted to attractive women, regardless of race.
I am biased, but I am not uneven. I see both sides of the argument. In another thread, I defended another Black woman on her who said she doesn’t date Black men, as I could care less if Black women date out or not. Someone was trying to shame her, but it is her life she is free to do with it as she pleases.
As I pointed out statistically, both Black men and White men are dating heavy women. Heavier women seem to be the norm. Kind of puts a crimp in that shaming tactic.
Pointing out my “biases” is not going to shame me into silence. As long as illegitimate arguments are made I will avail myself to post against them.
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FWIW, the last time I heard from Lisa Lampanelli she was engaged to a White man.
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And how do you define fetish? People seem to have no idea of the complex nature of what makes up a person’s makeup , their preferances their desires and what is right and wrong about it, the last thing I have very little faith in anyone including psyciatrists to really define and understand what makes humans really desire to have sex with someone else.
If I make love to a black woman, what am I suposed to do, turn off the lights and pretend she isnt any color?
People are presumtiosly thinking I am doing it just to hop in bed to have sex with a black woman. They arnt in on my personal relationships to see how I relate to the women I have sex with, even the one night stands.
I have had a rich life, I thank god for it, I am in touch with my desires, I have had sex with women of all colors and apreciate special things in each of them individualy and what they looked like as I was with in bed.
Abagond, if you say you had some attraction for oriental women, and if you did or imagined having sex with them, were you not seeing their race or the charactoristics of what made up their race and attracted you to them? Would you be turning off the lights to not see them? Or isnt exactly who they are and what they look like the reason you are attracted to them?
This bunk about sex with our own race as the right way is crazy.
Lets face it, Im open enough to describe how beautiful the black woman is and how much it turns me on to make love to a black woman , and that makes some people on here feel awfully uncomfortable.
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@B.R.:
Oriental? Those are rugs not people.
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I agree with you that black men are accepting of larger women, and marry black women who are heavier, not just white women. But I still say that many men, both black and white, expect black women to be a “dime” while being more accepting of white women who would be considered too fat, not attractive, or not educated. I think that when you are black, you have to be twice as good, than if you were white.
This is true.
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leigh204, then substitute what is acceptable to you.
I dont care if you have sex with someone of your own race, then you are objectifying about that.
Having sex involves objectifying your mate.
Idealy, we all want to feel safe with our partner and hope they accept us for who we are inside, and then that is when they can objectify their partner “oh ,I liked his or her lips, I liked his build, I liked how he or she looks”
woman have desires and passions as much as any man. They look at men and decide what physical atributes turn them on like men do to women.
Skin color is just one of many physical atributes that a person can find attractive and be turned on to.
And , huge amounts of people have sex with out love , just pure sex, and you cant judge them either.
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Having sex involves objectifying your mate.
Straight up. And, in fact, I’d argue that women are worse when it comes to this, ON AVERAGE, than men.
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Have you all checked out the Black women empowerment blogs? If you have, you’ll see that White men date all types of Black women — not just “hot” ones.
Abagond used to link to CWEXPERIENCE – she has loads of bw/wm sites. The Black women range from beautiful to plain = as do the men.
@Abagond:
Thank you for posting the Fanon chapters. Before I even read his actual writings I knew he was a flake. Now I actually know why I don’t like him.
He’s hypocritical. Somehow he justifies his attachment to White women, but condemns Black women for attaching themselves to White men. Don’t need to read anything else he writes.
Read the “Whose Zooming Who??” article on http://dateawhiteguy.blogspot.com/
It’s really interesting to see how many Black male Pan Africanists were married to White women.
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Thank you for posting the Fanon chapters. Before I even read his actual writings I knew he was a flake. Now I actually know why I don’t like him.
Translation: I STILL haven’t read him, but now I have a good excuse to justify my prejudice.
[roll eyes]
I’ve said it before above, I’ll say it again: Fanon clearly thinks thant racial fization is neurotic independent of gender or color. He makes this claim over and over. He most certainly does not condemn Black women over black men or even black women in general.
It’s a pity that you’re judging one of the classics of black psychological thought based on a poor and shallow reading of a paragraph, Patricia. A real pity indeed.
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Lynette and Islandgirl,
I definitely agree. My best friends and I always build each other up, not to be fake and cloying, but because we really do have high opinions of each other (hence why we are such good friends). So I can’t understand why some women want an entourage (of plain or ugly girls) to make themselves look better and then put down women who are comfortable with themselves and attract positive attention as a result.
BR,
My boyfriend has giving other guys beatdown on lock, but thanks for the offer! 🙂
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Jeri wrote:
“And don’t say I am being a hypocrite, because I mentioned both black men and women who are involved in interracial relationships for the
wrong reasons.”
Are you with the Interracial Mating Police? Who are you to judge the quality of the reasons with which two consenting adults enter into a relationship? I hear this judgment
being made quite a bit from black women. Many black women (not all) seem to think that WM/BW relationships are “pure” while viewing BM/WW relationships as being based on the superficial. Whether a couple’s reasons are “pure” or not makes not a whit of difference. It seems to me that people oppose interracial relationships because they see themselves (or their family members, which is just race because race is a very extended family that inbreeds to some extent) losing out in the mating game. And this is a reasonable concern.
Thad wrote:
“One of the things that’s so interesting about the above posts is that it seems that
everyone agrees that there’s a sort of general consensus on “who’s hot” and “who’s not”
which transcends racial frontiers.”
I have to disagree with you here. The long haired fair-skinned archetype does not transcend racial frontiers.
This is the point. There is a general consensus that crosses racial lines as to what physical features are
attractive. The problem is that these features are not uniformly distributed among the races.
This is the crux of the problem.
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RR
I am not trying to be the mating police. I don’t care who black people sleep with or marry. And as for black women being concerned with ” losing out on the mating game” , understand this, I am a happily married women who has a man who loves and cherishes me. There is not a day when he doesn’t spoil and put me on a pedestal, so I am not concerned with who black men sleep with. I could care less. I have a right to my opinion. And understand, don’t talk to me like I am a ignorant. I have heard both black men and women put blacks down of the opposite sex all my life. I have heard black men say that black women are too hard to get along with and that black men are too lazy and irresponsible. I hear these comments all the time on the internet. In fact, there isn’t a day that goes by, when I don’t read some ignorant person’s comment on black people from another black person. In fact, I can remember hearing these comments when I was young child, all the way back to when I was 4 or 5 years old. So you are not talking to someone who is “making up things” about black men and women. My opinions are based on experience. Not just mere conjecture. So if I choose to speculate as to why people date out their race, that is my perogative. And don’t try to act like you haven’t heard it neither. You know it is amazing to me how you could talk to me about my opinion on this subject. I don’t know how old you are or if you have been living under a rock all your life, but I have had a hard time believing that you have not heard blacks say terrible things about other blacks. And understand something else, don’t assume that I care at all what black men do. I don’t want a man and I don’t want other black women to have a man who despises and looks down on the women of his own race. So if a man worships white women, he can go somewhere. Why would I want such a man. I love and respect myself way too much. In fact it is because I love myself, that I feel that God blessed me with a good man, because for years, I didn’t compromise as to what type of relationship I wanted to be in. I stayed true to myself. And God blessed me with a good man, who loves his family. I am going to say this again. The topic was why blacks SOMETIMES are with whites. I came up with my own suggestions. That’s it. Once again, I noticed that people keep bringing up MY opinions. Tulio said that black men who were with white women were way more attractive than the white women they were with and could have done much better. He said that it was obvious that black men were with them because of the women’s color. I AGREED with him. I did not bring that subject up first. So why police my comments. Is it because I am a women and a black women on top of that. He is a man and possibly a white man, so that is different. I remember J saying something like well Tulio is white and he could be a nice person or something like that, well does that mean I am a black and a women so I am not a nice person? And don’t try to act lilke we don’t know that there are blacks who put whites on a pedestal. You are not that naive unless you have been living under a rock or just not that smart. I don’t care what other people do with their lives. In fact, I am firm believer that you reap what you sow. If black men and women want to be with someone for their race alone, then they should do it. In fact, I am attracted to types of men myself and if my wonderful husband had been a white man, I would still have married him, not because he is white, but in spite of him being white. When I was in college, I dated all types of men, in fact, the first man I ever dated was a white man. I was in Florida, in a internship program, that involved 500 high school students. He was of German descent. We were having a formal dance and he asked me of I would go to the dance with him. I said yes. I liked him but not a whole lot. So I never went out with him again. I met an Asian man in that internship program. I gave him my address and he wrote letters to me quite frequentley. One of my best friends was a white man. He was very attractive and one of the nicest people I have every met. He would walk me to school and to different places on campus. In fact he would insist on walking with me to places at night because he didn’t want anything bad to happen to me. I never forgot his kindness, and if I had been more into dating interracially I would have considered him in a way that was more than just platonic. Now understand, I have been interested in both black, white and asian men, but I liked them in spite of them being their color, not BECAUSE of their color. I like men. Period. I have found all types of men attractive. So if a black man just happens to fall in love with someone who is white, I don’t care. You don’t know me. Don’t assume that I am some bitter, petty, jealous women who is obsessed with what black men do because I am not like that. I could care less. I was just making some suggestions like everyone else who was on this post. Period. This is a format where people discuss topics. They express their opinions. Period. So get a life and leave me alone.
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RR
And I am going to say this, I said that white women often date black men because they sometimes felt rejected by white men. Again, I brought up the example of my white friend who was involved with a black man. She was the one who told me that many white men were into “barbie’ type white women, who are very slim and blond. She felt insecure because of this. I brought her up as an example. I was good friends with this women for 4 years. We lived together for 3 years. I learned alot about what some whites find attractive through her, so once again I brought her up. This is what a WHITE WOMAN said. I didn’t make this up. I was not the one who originally said that black men were into unattractive white women. Tulio did. I said that some white women felt rejected. I agreed with Tulio later on. I then said that I regreted agreeing with him because I don’t want white women who are with black men to feel unattractive, like my friend did. So if you are going to address me, you should know what you are talking about. You clearly don’t know what you are talking about, so once again. Leave me alone.
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RR, Truth B. Told, and J
There is not a thing that I have said that I have not heard at some point from another person. EVERYTHING that I have said is based on some negative thing that I have heard from a negative black person, either in person, on internet,or in books. I based my opinions on what THEY said. It is amazing to me that someone brought up Eldridge Cleaver’s book Soul on Ice. My father had that book when I was 8 years old. He had alot of books on black history, black poetry, black essays, black autobiographies, and black biographies. I saw the book “Soul on Ice”. I read it when I was 8 years old. That was the first time I heard a black man put down a black women in favor of a white women. I have NEVER forgot it. So once again, you are not talking to a stupid, inexperienced person. I KNOW what I am talking about. You can try to make me feel that I am just some immature person who is trying to make shots at black men or that I am just some bitter, jealous black women who is “policing” black men, but I have based my opinions on what I have heard, seen, or read. Or based on personal experiences. I am not making NOTHING up. So all three of you can talk all the nonsense you want to. I am not apologizing for anything that I have said.
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Oh, about the comment about black men being forgiving of heavier white women and not heavier black women. I got this idea from A BLACK MAN. I had a conservation with a good black male friend. We would speak about subjects for hours at a time. He said that he noticed that alot of black men were with heavier white women. I said that was a good thing because at least some men wanted them. They did not have to feel unloved. HE said that if that is the case, why don’t black men feel this same compassion for black women in terms of their looks. I never thought about it that way before. So once again, my opinion was based on what I heard someone else said. So this is not just my opinion. You got a problem with it, take it up with other people other than me, because I have discussed this same subject with at least 4 or 5 people, who agreed with me. So once again, I don’t believe you three are as naive as you pretend to be.
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Lastly, I am not the only one who expressed these same opinions on this post. So if you were trully objective, you would address their opinions also. I’m done.
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With regard to the issue of I cannot find a ‘Black male’. I had thought the issue has always been I cannot find a ‘GOOD Black man’ (emphasis on the word good and more to do with the ‘decision of choice) especially vis-a-vis the improving socio-economic status of Black women and the declining socio-economic status of ‘Black men’, as opposed to anything to do with looks, attractiveness etc??
And again there are a number of mis-conception of all sorts taking place, which is leading to the wrong conclusions.
In other words the facts that people are using is not correct.
For instance in my opinion the women who have made their remarks about Fanon, know very little about him, or his ideas if we are being honest.
Some may have read a Euro centred and/or White feminist piece about his ideas, which would be solely restricted to the chapters in BSWM and reached and accepted the conclusion that he is like many Black males TODAY who advocate ‘revolution’, but he wants to marry White but does not want the Black female to marry White but to stay true to the race- (paraphrasing someone earlier).
It is this perception of ‘hypocrisy’ which is derived from the NOW and falsely projected back on to Fanon which has helped driven this topic forward.
However, Fanon was not like that, nor does he represent it – but obviously and what is important is the women think he does represent that figure and hence the reason we find ourselves in this position of the debate.
Then there is another matter of grasping teh nature of ‘race politics’.
The only group who do NOT advocate inter-racial (ie you have to marry within the same race) are the Black Nationalist types. So for instance in the UNIA and NOI, its in their manifesto more or less. Without stating the obvious this is because their ideology is based upon race
per se.
However, no other political groups or persuasion advocate this, not even Pan Africanists.
Its important to note that SOME Black Nationalist may be Pan Africanists but not all Pan Africanist are Black Nationalist.
If you are Black Nationalist (especially with a Pan Africanist slant since not all Black Nationalist are Pan Africanist either). Then you could put forth a critique of Fanon from that perspective and it would have validity.
However, much of the critique of Fanon here, personally and I humbly submit are not put forward by those with a Black Nationalist persuasion, or I should qualify that by saying if there is any such critique, it has not been stated as well as it could be.
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RR sez:
I have to disagree with you here. The long haired fair-skinned archetype does not transcend racial frontiers.
This is the point. There is a general consensus that crosses racial lines as to what physical features are
attractive.
First of all, I’m talking about the people posting here, not in general. Secondly, I don’t think a real consensus astually exists even here: people simply presums that it does when they say “Oh, so-and-so’s hot” as if everyone in the world agreed with this assessment.
Finally, science has shown nothing at all about a supposed “long-haired fair-skinned” archetype being universally considered as beautiful. There has been some work that suggests that human beings, as a whole, see symetry as beautiful. That’s about all real science (as opposed to politically-based pseudo-science) has come up with so far.
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Thad, why do you think that commenters here presume there is a standard of beauty? I believe only a couple, at most, have even suggested so. I notice you do that a lot — one or two posters makes a certain type of comment and then you start on the whole “Oh, you people are always saying such and such.”
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J sez:
I had thought the issue has always been I cannot find a ‘GOOD Black man’…
The issue among women, all across the western world these days, is finding a GOOD man, period. It turns into a “GOOD Black man” on a forum like this because so many of the women posting here date black men exclusively or almost exclusively.
The problem is that feminism has created a world where women have many more opportunities than before, and this is good. But it has not changed our ideologies much about what we should look for in a mate.
When I listen to women talk and lay out their list of ideal mate characteristics, I hear a grab-bag of absolute contradictions (men do this too vis-a-vis women, so people shouldn’t feel I’m picking on women in particular here).
The most common contradiction that women express about men is that they seem to want a poetry-reciting tough guy. They want a mate who’ll be sensitive to their moods and needs and to the finer and subtler things in the world in general. But they ALSO want this guy to be able to take up any burden which they feel that they can’t or shouldn’t handle at a moment’s notice. They want to feel that they can rely on this guy (especially financially) to pull their fat out of the fire if everything goes south.
In my experience, sensitivity and a can-do, take-no-prisoners attitude towards the world are a very rare combination in any human being. But this is, indeed, what we’re teaching our daughters to look for in a man. Watch any Disney Princess flick.
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Thad, why do you think that commenters here presume there is a standard of beauty?
Because most of the comments above have to do with the idea that one can perceive relative hotness. A huge chunk of the discussion revolves around whether white men tolerate ugliness better or worse in white women than in black.
The very basis of this presumption is the idea that we all have more-or-less the same idea as to what’s beautiful and what’s not, otherwise the discussion makes no sense at all.
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I mean, Natasha, it seems to me that the whole debate you got into with folks about weight has as an unstated presumption that more weight is generally uglier. If this wasn’t an unstated presumption, why debate the issue at all?
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Barra? Erg.
But even presuming that you have a point, Barra is hardly the Brazilian norm. São Conrado: THERE’S your Brazilian norm.
But we’re threatening to jump the shark here. Again.
Tell you what: I’ll try to write an article soon on my blog entitled “Are Brazilians really so sensual?” and we can discuss it there.
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You got it, Ill wait for it ….
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Thad,
Because most of the comments above have to do with the idea that one can perceive relative hotness. A huge chunk of the discussion revolves around whether white men tolerate ugliness better or worse in white women than in black.
Myself and mynameismyname expressedly stated that what is beautiful is a matter of opinion. A few have taken the opposite position, but that is only a few.
And the last half of the discussion regarding white men and their relations with white women barely mentioned anything about “ugliness,” rather it was commenting on the issue of weight.
I mean, Natasha, it seems to me that the whole debate you got into with folks about weight has as an unstated presumption that more weight is generally uglier. If this wasn’t an unstated presumption, why debate the issue at all?
Perhaps others have such presumptions, but I wasn’t making any claims about whether more weight is generally better or worse in terms of appearance. I simply stated that white cultural standards of attractiveness are in favor of thinness, and thus when white women are heavier, they have a larger chance of being rejected by white men on this basis. I doubt this is a revelation to anyone.
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With regard to:
“I hear a grab-bag of absolute contradictions”
I think I have been guilty of this myself…’wears his badge with great pride’ ha ha ha
Some intersting comments Thad
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With regard to:
Perhaps others have such presumptions, but I wasn’t making any claims about whether more weight is generally better or worse in terms of appearance. I simply stated that white cultural standards of attractiveness are in favor of thinness, and thus when white women are heavier, they have a larger chance of being rejected by white men on this basis. I doubt this is a revelation to anyone.
I was one of those individuals…
I would disagree with the assumption that White cultural standards of attractiveness (ie thinness) ultimately means
that large White women have a ‘larger’ (forgive the pun he he) chance to be passed by White men on this basis??
I am not quite sure how this conclusion can be easily derived.
Finally if we read further, we see that the term ‘weight’ is tied into the concept of ‘unacceptability’, even if this may not have been your intention.
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J,
Of course if white cultural standards of attractiveness are in favor of thinness for women, and one is not thin, they would have a greater chance of being rejected. As attraction plays a large role in whom we choose as mates.
I don’t believe you truly are having a hard time following that logic.
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Thanks.
Nothing is ever uniform in society. The idea of thin, whiteness and beauty is usually something afforded to the supermodels and the media, not always the general populace of women.
Was it not stated that the average dress size in the UK is 12-14, and breast size 3(8??) DD, or something like that.
So we have to be careful of ‘what the media’ is pushing and ‘what the reality is on the ground’.
I think this idea that large (as of yet we have not even decided on what dress size and/or weight is in fact such…) White women are being rejected their own men because of their size is not so
I think the argument being put forth is in fact a fallacy – and we are discussing it as if it is true. Herein is the problem.
Unless you can bring to the table issues like
1. What is large
2. A rough idea of how many women have been rejected for being large per se and not because of B.O or some other factor.
and so forth.
If you wish to say that this is what you believe and it is your opinion – then this would be fine by me…
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Nothing is ever uniform in society. The idea of thin, whiteness and beauty is usually something afforded to the supermodels and the media, not always the general populace of women.
This is where we disagree. And I think most people would disagree would that.
But thanks for your input.
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Ok that’s cool…
Would you like to say what position are you advancing to refute my contention??
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And before you proceed to do so, if you want to off course.
Here is research from the UK, and in essence my position.
So do men REALLY prefer Miss Average?By ALLISON PEARSON 12th June 2009
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1192439/So-men-REALLY-prefer-Miss-Average.html
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J, unless you are living under a big, fat rock you know that women, especially white women are pressured to be thin.
I don’t think I can continue discussing this with you. The inanity of your statements is a bit much.
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…but its not the same as saying that are being rejected for whatever average dress size they are by men of their own race…
This is the point we are discussing and trying to get to the ‘bottom off’ (again forgive the pun ha ha).
I will leave it there…unless you can bring something more to the table for discussion.
Thanks!!
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J, and what have you brought to the discussion? Other than irrelevant ad lib and side commentary on other’s comments?
And stop twisting up others’ statements: no one mentioned “average dress size,” this was about a person being noticeably overweight.
But, I think I’m done with you. Truly. Please don’t respond to my comments or quote them in this post or elsewhere. I can’t have a discussion with someone who is pretending to be dense in order to back their own conspiracy theories. It’s clear we are just going to have to agree to disagree.
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ha ha ha ha
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Just for clarification purposes – unless Abagond advises me otherwise
This is to let you know:
1. I will NOT talk to you
2. But I will quote what you say and comment upon it where necessary- after all it is a discussion board, to discuss, reason ideas.
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Thad said: The issue among women, all across the western world these days, is finding a GOOD man, period. It turns into a “GOOD Black man” on a forum like this because so many of the women posting here date black men exclusively or almost exclusively.
To the rescue: A New Wash. Post Article and a book too.
Single black women being urged to date outside race
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2010/02/25/ST2010022502182.html?sid=ST2010022502182
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Frantz Fanon: Conflicts and Feminisms (excerpts from book)
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=mV26zeQK_hEC&pg=PR10&lpg=PR10&dq=fanon+and+white+feminist&source=bl&ots=SkbgmBwuGa&sig=WTqRmTDRYjDc6_lFkvsbKU9o1MM&hl=en&ei=YOWGS4SPI4uRjAet6pmgDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CA4Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=fanon%20and%20white%20feminist&f=false
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@J
I think I’m one of the people who started the “white males want thin females” issue- so I want to repeat that’s my experience in my culture. Females- especially the younger ones- tend to be thin. Not all of them, but it’s the surprising number of very, very skinny girls (I’m talking about body shape now)- no curves, small butt, narrow hips. As far as I can tell, that’s the most common body type for young (younger than 25) females in my culture. I do think UK women, on average, are a bit “heavier”- hence all the talk about “fat British women” and “our girls are the most beautiful on the Earth” talk that is common in my culture. So, when I was talking about the pressure to be skinny, I did state my culture standards that are- as far as I can tell- more rigid than “general white” (western white) standards.
Also, J, once again: I am not talking about “heavier” women, I am talking about different body shape (hourglass figure). Many women with hourglass figure actually weight less than those with narrow hips- but the figure itself is not considered to be attractive anymore (by whites at least). I even think Abagond himself wrote about this phenomenon among white people, so it makes me think it’s not just something about my culture.
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Jeri,
I apologize. I didn’t mean to offend you. I have also
heard lots of venom spewed between black men and
women. It is very depressing. I didn’t accuse you of making things up. I’m not in any way casting aspersions on your character or the quality of your romantic relationships. What I said was that black women in IRs have a tendency to view their relationships as “pure”, i.e. based on something otherthan sexual attraction, as compared to the brainwashed black men and white women who base their relationship on mere physicality. This is all I was saying.
Thad wrote:
“Finally, science has shown nothing at all about a
supposed “long-haired fair-skinned” archetype being
universally considered as beautiful.”
I don’t know about that. There is a substantial body of
work done on the science of beauty. The research scientist
Nancy Etcoff summarized some of the work in her book “Survival of the Prettiest”. From this research we know that men, regardless of race or culture, prefer younger women to older women. We know that long shiny hair is a fertility indicator to men, thus women with long shiny hair have a tendency to attract more male attention than women with shorter, duller hair. Waist to hip ratio is also a fertility indicator as is skin color. Men, regardless of race, generally prefer women who are lighter than themselves while women, generally speaking, prefer men who are darker than themselves. In racially homogenous societies, sex is the biggest source of skin color difference because men are generally darker than women.
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Mira,
Just to say I understand what you are/were saying but there was also a different debate taking place simultaneously and more importantly even before your initial comments.
This is how it started, C represent Commentator. I know this is long-winded, well it is for me since I have to cut n paste all this ha ha aha ha…but anyhow not to worry, and on we go:
C: “… And, in my experience the white women who are rejected due to their weight/looks tend to be bitter and disheartened, and take up with non-white men to ease their insecurity about attracting men”.
J: “I have not found this to be the case in London.”
C: “J, what have you found to be the case in London?”
J: “With regard to what happens in London, it all depends on perspectives and who you are going to listen too.
Take a White woman perspective then you will definitely not get your position…”
C: “J, some black men and non-black Latino men tend to appreciate a curvier body on a woman. What some white men see as overweight they see as just right. So, yes, it speaks to their mindset in that sense.”
J: However, your words in your initial post does not refer to ‘curvier body’, nor does it convey this suggestion
You wrote:
“And, in my experience the white women who are rejected due to their weight/looks tend to be bitter and disheartened, and take up with non-white men to ease their insecurity about attracting men”.
C: “J, my original statement was referring to their being rejected due to their weight. So, yes, it did refer to a curvier body. What else would it be referring to?”
J: Thanks I am glad you clarified this. Would you like to clarify also what does it say for non-white men who go on to choose such women??…which was the point I raised earlier
in regard to:
And, in my experience the WHITE WOMEN who are REJECTED due to their WEIGHT/LOOKS tend to be BITTER and DISHEARTENED =, [THEY GO] and take up with
NON-WHITE MEN…??
C: ” J, it means they like women with more weight, which I said in my first response to you”.
J: Thanks…then what about the issue of looks since you also mention this too?
C: I was pretty much referring to weight when I mentioned looks. I don’t believe a standard can be put on beauty.
This is where you first enter:
Mira: “Well, in my opinion men (at least men in my culture) are obsessed with thin women. I do think most of the cultures dislike fat women- but what is considered fat varies a lot”
C: [A different person to the one above ] “Mira
I agree with you. Every women wants to feel attractive. If black men are more accepting of bigger women, then I don’t blame bigger white women for being with black men.”
J: “With regard to:
…I agree with you. Every women wants to feel attractive. If black men are more accepting of bigger women, then I don’t blame bigger white women for being with black men.
There just something about this that seems ‘patronising’ to
‘bigger white women’ and ‘black men’ in much of the discussion here. I am finding it all abit confusing here…
I hope this has clarified matters for you…
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RR
I understand what you are saying. People do tend to say that one interracial relationship is more geniune than the other. But believe it or not, I really don’t believe that. I have heard of black women who were involved in interracial relationships spew hatred on black men. Recently, maybe 1 month ago, I was on youtube. I saw a video on interracial relationships, and a black women and a black man were going back forth with each other over which sex was worse than the other. I had to admit that the black woman was horrible. She kept saying that most black men were criminals and that they were always running away from responsibility. She based this claim on her being a social worker. She said she has worked in the prison system and that she had seen many black men who fit her profile of the irresponsible black man. She said that most black men were trifling, that they refused to work a real job, and that black women should not associate with them. So I have heard quite a few black women talk crap about black men due to their bitterness or ignorance. BOTH black men and women have been brainwashed into believeing that whiteness is something to worship or put on a pedestal. So I think that both sexes can potentially date whites for superficial reasons. I admit I talked about black men and their reasons more, but no, I know for a fact that black women can be just as bad as black men. I’m concerned about the relationship between black men and women. Even I find myself wondering if black men really love black women or not. I just think that instead of us attacking one another, we should have a honest dialogue where we express our feelings without condemning each other. I really mean that we should be honest but not in a cruel way. For instance, I am concerned with why we as a people don’t marry each other. I am also concerned why we have so much hatred and mistrust towards one another. I think that living in a racist society has had a toll on our relationships. We keep comparing ourselves to whites instead of accepting each other. WE keep believing in racial stereotypes and, most importantly, we keep embracing white standards of beauty and success. I noticed that black Africans( those who were born in Africa) marry each other and don’t have the same issues that African Americans have. Years of slavery, the jim crow system, and other forms of racism has tainted our love and trust towards one another. I wonder can black love thrive when is it dominated by a racist society. Can black love survive? Let’s talk about this.
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RR
And I am sorry if I came on too strong earlier.
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I just wanted to make a point. Like I mentioned earlier, I grew up around Africans, primarily those from Nigeria, and I have had many African co-workers. Well one of the Africans, who was my supervisor, would always invite me to African weddings. She attended an African church and that church would have weddings quite often. She invited me to around 4 or 5 weddings. I came to the conclusion that Africans must love the institution of marriage and marry way more frequently than African Americans. I have been invited to only 1 African American marriage. That is just my experience. I not saying that everyone has had the same experiences but that gets back to the point I was making earlier. African Americans who were born in Africa come from a different culture. Virtually all the Africans I have met were married compared to maybe 25% of the African Americans I have met. I think once again, that slavery and other forms of racism has had a negative impact on African Americans when it comes to relationships. I think Africans, even though they can be affected by racism also, have a more positive attitude about themselves. Maybe they don’t believe in racial stereotypes concerning each other as much. Also, maybe they aren’t obsessed with white standards of beauty as much. I definitely think they are pressured to marry and to preserve and take care of the family. Once again, they were not exposed to slavery, so the African culture, which promotes marriage and the family, was preserved. I also notices that Africans believe in getting an education. There isn’t a stigma with getting an education within the African society the way it maybe in the African American society. I have heard many African Americans say that when they were exceling in school, many African Americans accused them of trying to talk and act “white”. I have especially heard this from African American men who said that when they were getting their education, many men and women, especially women, accused them of being “nerds” They said that people didn’t accept them because they weren’t “thuggish” enough. So once again, the African culture, which promotes hardwork and success, was preserved among African born Americans while it deterioted among African Americans. African Americans were not allowed to get a education, and whenever African Americans attempted to be successful in the past, they were often met with threats and intimidation from whites, especially during the period of slavery and the Jim Crow system. This may have warped our perception of education. This is just my opinion. What do the rest of you think?
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Also threats and itimidation may have warped our pursuit to have black owned business also. I keep thinking about incidences in the past. I can’t think of the name of the town, but there was a African American town that was considered “black wall street”. That was because there were many sucessful black owned businesses there. This was sometime during the 1920’s I think. Well anyway, the whites were threatened by it’s success, so much so, that hundreds of whites decided to attack the town, killing hundreds of blacks, and destroying the buildings. This happened quite a few times back in the early 1900’s, not just once. So often when blacks created a properous society, whites would invade and destroy it. I remember reading about a similar situation that happened in a town called Boly or Bolie, Oklahoma that was destroyed also. It was so long ago, I don’t remember the exact details. I was 10 years old at the time I read about it. The two towns could be the same, I don’t know. Anyway, I think this created a belief within African Americans, often subconsciously, that if they try to pursue something successful, whites would try to hinder them. I know this is getting of the subject of Fanon, but I was just curious how you guys feel about this subject.
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By the way, I meant to say prosperous society, not properous society, but you guys get my point.
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Jeri,
From my point of view, the breakdown in relationships between black men and black women here in the West was inevitable. White relationships are also doomed, but they are declining at a slower rate. Men and women are just less dependent on each other than we used to be, and our relationships have suffered as a consequence. Desegregation and feminism, modernity in a word, have had unintended side-effects that have degraded relationships between men and women. There is no putting that genie back in the bottle, so we can expect more of the same until the West falls, which is also inevitable.
You wrote:
“I just think that instead of us attacking one another, we should have a honest dialogue where we express our feelings without condemning each other.”
Kind of like, Democrats and Republicans? How is that working out:)? Your proposal overlooks the inherent competition between the sexes. Any dialogue, honest or otherwise, would be a contest. It would be a sexual political contest and given the nature of men and women, this should be expected. I’m not a big fan of honest dialogue regarding interpersonal relationships. I find that honest dialogue does more harm than good. Feelings get hurt during these discussions. Tempers flare. Feelings harden and you are back to square one (or worse).
I am also concerned about the future of marriage among black Americans. Unfortunately, many deem marriage as unnecessary. People don’t need to be married in order to form families, which was the main purpose of marriage. Men don’t need marriage because of all the loose booty around. Women don’t need marriage because men are redundant. In order to make marriage more attractive, all of the loose booty would have to be sopped up and men would have to be of real use, neither of which is going to happen anytime soon.
“We keep comparing ourselves to whites instead of accepting each other. WE keep believing in racial stereotypes and, most importantly, we keep embracing white standards of beauty and success.”
This is problematic. We do live in a Western democracy that was created by white people. We speak English, a European language. De jure segregation is dead, so yeah, we compare ourselves to whites. This seems logical to me. We could define beauty and success for ourselves, but where would that get us? Would we be better off if we defined success outside of a white context despite living in the West? We have defined reproductive success outside of a white context. That hasn’t worked out too well for us.
“I noticed that black Africans( those who were born in Africa) marry each other and don’t have the same issues that African Americans have. Years of slavery, the jim crow system, and other forms of racism has tainted our love and trust towards one another. I wonder can black love thrive when is it dominated by a racist society.”
I really don’t buy any of that. To begin with, the black Africans here in the West are an elite group of Africans. They had the wherewithal to immigrate, so it is not really an apples to apples comparison. If one were to look at the behavior of black Africans in Africa and compare it with black behavior in the West we would discover many of the same issues: low paternal investment, high crime, low employment, lower life expectancy, higher infant mortality, blah blah. If black Africans are so dynamic, what are they doing here? Wouldn’t Nigeria be a entrepreneurial hothouse instead of, ya know, Nigeria?
I think the effect of slavery/segregation on black family life is wildly exaggerated. Consider that during the worst era of Jim Crow, black marriage rates were higher than they are now. Shouldn’t the institution of marriage have been crippled THEN when discrimination against blacks was highest?
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You know, I am not sure if it was Boley, Oklahoma that was destroyed. I do know that Boley was one of the black prosperous towns in the early 1900’s. And I do know that many whites were threatened by it, but I think it was another town in Oklahoma that was destroyed. Anyway, it wasn’t uncommon for this to happen to successful African American communities. Maybe Abagond might discuss himself.
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RR
You know, I stand by what I said that living in a white society has affected black Americans. I do think that self hatred and our comparing ourselves to whites has damaged us. You are right when you said that there were more blacks who were married during the Jim Crow times, so maybe it wasn’t Jim Crow. In fact, because we were being attacked by racism so much during that period, we depended on each other more. But I believe without a shadow of a doubt, that we as a people suffer from self-hatred. I think the images in the media and other racist tactics have caused our people to have low self esteems when it comes to race. I think this self hatred has divided us. As for Africans, I don’t think that the institution of marriage among Africans is no where near as damaged as it is among African Americans. I think if blacks were left to themselves, without constant racist attacks, our family system would be alot stronger. That doesn’t mean we wouldn’t have other problems. Africans of course have problems, like poverty, Aids, tribal strife, etc. But I think that because of their problems, they depend on each other more, like we used to back during Jim Crow. I think African Americans have developed a “I don’t need you” attitude and that has affected our decision to get married also. But I stand by what I said about racism and colorism hindering black love. We do compare each other to whites. Like I said to earlier, I hear it all the time among African American men and women. So why assume that these comments aren’t coming from somewhere. Often what people say comes from their hearts and minds and those subconscious feeling affect our behaviors. So yes, I think black people are too hard on one another.
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And you mentioned about low paternal investment among Africans. Do you mean men don’t participate in the family like they should? No, I don’t believe that. Yes Africans have problems, like crime etc. But that comes from poverty. Now the question is why is there so much poverty in Africa? I believe that racism has alot to do with that also. But understand that despite racism, Africans still have more control over how they perceive themselves than African Americans. African Americans are constantly told that they fit some type of racial stereotype in this country. If you keep hearing the same thing over and over again, you tend to believe it. Sometimes I am concerned that black women hear that they are evil, loud, ghetto, and uneducated so often, they might believe it and start to carry out those types of behavior. So no, I think Africans don’t have to deal with those types of racial stereotypes as often, freeing them to make better decisions.
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And bare in mind, I am talking about African-Americans hearing lies about themselves ALL their lives, unlike Africans who migrate here. And of course Africa has it problems, so does Central American, South America and many parts of Asia, that doesn’t mean that the family structure isn’t strong. If anything, poor people tend to depend on each other more, like I said earlier. So just because Africans come from a poorer place, doesn’t mean they don’t have a culture that promotes family and education. If anything, being poor would cause them to promote this all the more so. And not having to deal with racist stereotypes would cause them to pursue a positive lifestyle all the more so, especially if they didn’t have to deal with these racial stereotypes as a child.
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“Better than a thousand useless words is one single word that gives peace”
Thanks Jeri!!
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J
I am going to honest with you. What are you talking about? I mean just come out and say it.
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J
Are you saying a good thing or bad thing? I don’t understand. Really.
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Radical theories require radical proof, RR. Etcoff’s book does a good job of showing that there probably is a biological component to beauty perception: symetry of features, waist/hip ratio, hair… all of these things are goiod biological markers of health and thus probably evolution has keyed us to see them as beautiful.
But the first problem with your view of Etcoff is that you distort what she says, and this is a common pattern with your readings of biodeterminist works. Etcoff says that “long shiny hair” is understood as beautiful by humans and it probably is (though one would thus have to question why it isn’t for males in so many human cultures, because the biology should work EXACTLY the same for men – more so, given that in every other mammal, males are most given to physical displays and not females). She is NOT saying, however, that long STRAIGHT hair or BLOND hair has an advantage here.
The second problem with Etcoff’s study has to do with her methodology and analysis, which aren’t up to par to support her conclusions. Etcoff makes statistical claims regarding the human race. For these claims to have any validity whatsoever, this means that she needed to sample a statistically significant group of humans from all cultures. She has not done this: her results are heavily weighted to humans living in the modern, western, media-moderated world. She thus has no way of removing the effects of media from her hypothesis.
She tries to deal with this by looking at babies. Babies, however, are notoriously refractory subjects. They can’t talk and what they communicate is more often than not widely open to interpretation. A scientist with any sort of research bias at all (which is, of course, all of us) is going to have a difficult time keeping that out of her analysis when working with babies.
Moreover, there’s a base assumption that what babies prefer in pictures is somehow what adults call beauty in the flesh. This presumption has enormous logical holes in it.
So no, RR, Etcoff’s work is not reasonable “scientific proof” that whites are prettier than blacks, as yopu imply. In fact, Etcoff herself would probably be appalled at that interpretation.
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ha ha ha Jeri
It is a very good thing!!
I had said earlier one should be open, frank and admit when not knowing one’s subject matter and so forth.
However, even better than this is ‘humbleness of spirit’ to adjust one’s position accordingly.
And even greater than that is to admit in the public – when you don’t really have to.
You have been one of the very few to have demonstrated this here
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J
Oh well, thank you. You seem like a very humble person yourself.
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With regard to:
“Finally, science has shown nothing at all about a
supposed “long-haired fair-skinned” archetype being
universally considered as beautiful.”
I don’t know about that. There is a substantial body of
work done on the science of beauty. The research scientist
Nancy Etcoff summarized some of the work in her book “Survival of the Prettiest”. From this research we know that men, regardless of race or culture, prefer younger women to older women. We know that LONG SHINY HAIR is a fertility indicator to men, thus women with long shiny hair have a tendency to attract more male attention than women with SHORTER, duller hair. Waist to hip ratio is also a fertility indicator as is skin color. MEN REGARDLESS OF RACE GENERALLY PREFER WOMEN WHO ARE LIGHTER THAN THEMSELVES, while women, generally speaking, prefer men who are darker than themselves. In racially homogenous societies, sex is the biggest source of skin color difference because men are generally darker than women.
I have never heard of this study but the first thing that comes to my mind in a few words this seems to be a Euro-centred perspective and analysis.
What was her sample analysis Thad, and did it include any ‘Africans??
Cheers
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Jeri,
You wrote:
I don’t think that the institution of marriage among Africans is no where near as damaged as it is among African Americans.
Perhaps, but the notion of marriage is different here in the West than it is in sub-Saharan Africa. The African aphorism “It takes a village to raise a child” probably came about precisely because of the very different marital/familial structure that exist in Africa. There, as here, women outnumber men. There, as here, women do the bulk of the work. There, as here, blacks experience relatively high levels of paternity uncertainty.
” So no, I think Africans don’t have to deal with those types of racial stereotypes as often, freeing them to make better decisions.
But they don’t seem to be making better decisions. They just don’t have white people to compare themselves with.
James Q Wilson wrote an article largely supportive of most of your argument, although he does point out the similarities in familial structure among African Americans, Jamaicans and black Africans (http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=24001).
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Where are you Thad?? ha ha ha
Here is the book
And one reviewer cited an observation which is interesting, well in my opinion…
“…Another ‘reader’ claimed that Etcoff did not consider ideas of beauty in other cultures. That is incorrect, as anybody who has read the book knows.
She devotes considerable ink to standards and ideals of beauty in cultures around the world and her observation is that ideals of beauty tend to be culture specific; that is, Ache tribesmen (Paraguay) find their women and women of a neighboring tribe more attractive than European women.
Indeed Etcoff reports that Asians typically find European and African noses not attractive because they are too large. Ache tribesmen actually made fun of the Caucasian anthropologists calling them “pyta puku, meaning longnose.” (p. 139).
Etcoff concluded that there were differences in standards of beauty, but that there were also similarities…”
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Thad wrote:
“though one would thus have to question why it isn’t for males in so many human cultures, because the biology should work EXACTLY the same for men – more so, given that in every other mammal, males are most given to physical displays and not females”.
I’m not quite sure what you are asking here. I am going to interpret your question to mean the following:
Why isn’t male hair viewed as a reproductive/fitness indicator to women? Given the fact that males in other species are more given to physical displays that are females, it would seem that human males would also be given to such displays rather than human females.
The indicators wouldn’t have to be same for men because men and women are different, with different life imperatives. Males in non-human species are more given to physical displays to showcase their fitness, but reproduction in these species is more of a winner-take-all competition. Peacocks with the longest tails mate with all the peahens in a flock almost exclusively, leaving other peacocks without mates. Reproduction among humans is not as cutthroat. Low ranking men still get the chance to mate. The point is that fitness indicators are different for men and women because our reproductive cycles and reproductive plumbing are different. Hair is not a fertility indicator for men because our reproductive life cycles are longer than those of women, thus hair is a more important indicator for men than for women, although men’s ability to grow their hair isn’t unimportant for women. Of course, there are women who select mates specifically for their ability to grow hair, since this trait would be passed on to any children (especially female children) these particular women would have with long haired gents.
Ectoff does say that long hair is perceived to be beautiful. She does not state (although other researchers have) why long hair is perceived as beautiful. Whether the attraction for long hair serves an evolutionary purpose is deserving of a discussion unto itself. The point is that beauty bestows advantages to those so deemed. This is true regarding clarity and coloring of skin and it is also true of hair.
J wrote:
” I have never heard of this study but the first thing that comes to my mind in a few words this seems to be a Euro-centred perspective and analysis.
This is a reasonable concern. The anthropologist Peter Frost (http://pages.globetrotter.net/peter_frost61z/) examines color preference issues in depth in his book “Fair Women, Dark Men: The Forgotten Roots of Color Prejudice”. In the book he surveys the studies done on color preferences among non-European people. He concludes that color preferences are universal, with males preferring women lighter than themselves and women preferring men darker than themselves.
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Regarding Etcoff’s data, it is indeed multi-cultural. What it is NOT is multi-cultural to a degree that would allow one to speak for the entire human race with authority. Etcoff did not reproduce her research in many of the cultures which she claims have the same views. Furthermore, she seems to have cherry-picked what cultures she did study: she certainly hasn’t taken a random sampling of humanity and this is what shhe’d need to do to give her argument the requisite force required to support the radical interpretation of her hypothesis that RR is trying to float.
Y’know what I admire in RR? His ability to subtly twist scientific research so that it appears to support a racist view of the world – often in direct contradiction of its original author`s stated findings.
Just look at this, for example:
Ectoff does say that long hair is perceived to be beautiful. She does not state (although other researchers have) why long hair is perceived as beautiful. Whether the attraction for long hair serves an evolutionary purpose is deserving of a discussion unto itself. The point is that beauty bestows advantages to those so deemed. This is true regarding clarity and coloring of skin and it is also true of hair.
At know point in her work does Etcoff imply that lighter-colored skin is healthier and thus attractive. In fact, on several occasions, she points out that race is a CULTURAL and not a biological artefact and that its impact on human perceptions of beauty is thus likewise cultural.
When she says “clarity of skin”, she means skin without blemishes, with uniform coloring. RR rrads this little blurb in a book review somewhere and WHAM! Immediately it’s twisted into clarity=lighter skin color.
I’ll challenge RR right here and now to show us where in Etcoff’s book does she say that lighter-colored skin is universally perceived as more beautiful.
C’mon, RR: show a quote or STFU. 😀
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Thanks Thad
I had a quick look at the site… I am not quite sure what to think.
Its interesting the topics that are raised,, but some of the questions are very strange
1. Which came first, color prejudice or black slavery?
Why Black slavery, slavery was an institution as normal as breathing air. I am not sure why the specific question to ‘Black slavery’??
2. Why Europeans are so white-skinned – but without stating the obvious some of them are not…ha ha ha
Maybe I did not do the link justice with my quick preamble.
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J – I think color prejudice came before black slavery just as ethnic prejudice did among the entire world.
Remember, the slave trade as we’re referring to it here is fairly recent, but you have to remember that slavery, not just black slavery, exisited long beforehand whether it was in South America, Asia, North Africa, etc… you name it. The Moors of North Africa conquered southern Europe long before the discovery of the New World. (Even in the New World the Inca were enslaving other ethnic groups throughout the Andean Mountain Range.)
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Do you mean to say:
he specifically put the WHITE WOMAN on a pedestal?
or
Are you saying when he took part in the revolution killing WHITE PEOPLE
he was putting White people on a pedestal.
Personally if I have to state my own opinion I think it is the former.
However, let’s not jump the gun…
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And before you do answer, if you should choose to.
A typing error changed the perspective of my question
It should read as follows:
“Personally if I have to state my own opinion on what you are going to say I think it is the former”.
And it brings us back around to this important issue of Black activist with White Wives, as well as Black women’s response to the situation
However, what it does not do is to look at a man’s life in totality and see what contribution he made to the advancement of the race
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Haven’t read Fanon, but based on what I see here, truly sad.
Needs to be proud of himself and who is is no matter what.
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ha ha ha!!
..Not to worry ColorofLuv there are many others who have commented that has not read Fanon either and hence all the contradictory thoughts – so you are not on your own mate.
What it does show on a more disconcerting level though is how this medium can take a person irresponsible words and cause it to affect the perceceptions of others, than it could have otherwise…
Hmmm!!
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Well we find ourselves in a strange situation.
We have Fanon, an embarassment to Blacks doing more for the cause than a woman who appears to want to be an impersonator of Sis. Souljah.
What a tangled web we weave in our delusions
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Thad,
You wrote:
“At know point in her work does Etcoff imply that lighter-colored skin is healthier and thus attractive.”
I agree with you. She never says that lighter-colored skin is healthier. In fact, she goes out of her way to say that compared to darker skin, light skin is less healthy. What she does not dispute is that men prefer women who are lighter than themselves. From page 104, middle of second paragraph, Ectoff states:
“Women tend to be paler than men of the same race because women have less hemoglogin in their blood and less melanin thanin their skin. Artists in ancient Egypt, Crete, and Japan highlighted the differences between males and females by using different colors in their representations -white, yellow, or gold for women, orange, red, or brown for men. Millenia later, sandy-haired Elvis Presley dyed his hair blue-black and, to be sure everyone noticed, constantly drew his hand back along it;and the medium-toned, freckled brunette Marilyn Monroe wore pale makeup and dyed her hair platinum. To exaggerate their sexual appeal, each heightened signs of their masulinity or femininity through skin and hair color.
Babies have paler and more delicate skin and hair than their parents. Hair never gets blonder and skin never lightens naturally as people get older, and true flaxen hair is seldom seen beyond early childhood except among Scandinavians. Anthropologist Peter Frost has suggested that women’s pale skin may serve similar purposes to those of infants: as a deterrent to aggression and as a general signal of youthfulness”
She quotes other scientists who believe that male preference for lighter skin is universal. From page 105:
The neuroscientist V.S. Ramachandran has suggested yet one more possible reason that selection pressures may have favored lighter skin in women. Light skin is a more transparent window to health, age, and sexual interest than darker skin.
Anthropologist Douglas Jones suggests that the male preference for lighter than average skin color in a female partner is a cultural universal or near universal
And she references a Wyoming study of college students:
In a questionaire study of Caucasian college students in Wyoming, the men said that they prefered to date and mate women with light eyes and hair, and medium light skin, while the women preferred men with dark eyes and dark hair, and they disliked very light complexions in men.
And from page 101:
“Whitish-pink face makeup persevered in the United States until very recently. Makeup artist Kevyn Aucoin relates how in 1967, as a first grader, he mishtook a store clerk’s face makeup for calamine lotion. Commiserating with her about his own mosquito bites, he encountered puzzled silence. On the way home, his mother explained that the pale paste was face makeup.
Over this pale canvas, women apply exclamation points of red to their lips and cheeks. Red, the color of blood, of blushes and flushes, of nipples, lips, and genitals awash in sexual excitement, is visible from afar and emotionally arousing.
Notice how Ectoff does not present contrary arguments to the assertions by the quoted scientists that men generally prefer women with lighter skin.
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RR
You said that Africans aren’t making better decisions. Why do you say this? I think that you are like alot of other people when you assume that Africans are plagued with problems. Like I said before, Africa is like so many other places. People in Central America, South America, and some parts of Asia are struggling also because of poverty. But those same people, often when they come to the United States, are faced with way more opportunities and they often take advantage of those opportunities. Africans are no different. In THIS country, most of the Africans that I have met are making excellent choices. Most of them are married like I mentioned before, most of them have college degrees, many of them own businesses, most of them have nice houses in the suburbs, and most of them are very fluent in more than one language. Hence, they ARE making good choices. I don’t know what Africans you know, but I have been around Africans my whole life, and most of them are very successful. My mother dated an African for 4 years and he was getting his Phd in Biochemistry. I know of two African American women who are married to Africans and they have a very good lifestyle. The women are housewives and the husbands have their own businesses. So when you say, they aren’t making good decisions what Africans are you talking about? Like I said before Africans are no different from other people who live in poor countries. They make poor choices due to the limited choices they have to make. But once they are in a different environment, like the United States, they excell most of the times. So don’t believe the hype about Africans being messed up. Let me tell you something. My grandmother has her Master’s degree. She told me that one of her white professors said that he believed that African and African American people were inferior because they did poorly on IQ test. Well, my grandmother was determined to prove him wrong. She did her own research and found out that the ethnic group that had the highest overrall GPA at her university was not the whites, or the Asians, but were the black Africans who immigrated to this country. This was the case in the early 80’s at her university. So once again when you say Africans aren’t making good choices, I think you are wrong. Don’t believe the hype about black Africans. The media would like you to think that black Africans are all Aids ridden, poverty stricken people who are savage and can’t get their act together, but that is just not true. And another thing, you say that the Africans who come here are part of the elite of Africa. How do you know that for sure? And how would that be different from the Asians and other ethnic groups who migrate here. Are you saying that the Africans are different from other ethnicities who migrate here? Where did you get that from? And just because someone is born in a certain salary range, doesn’t mean they are going to make good decisions, like get married and so forth. No I think it is the culture that they came from that causes them to get married. And also don’t believe the hype about marriage in Africa being very different from marriages anywhere else. Yes many men have more than one wife, but more and more Africans are promoting the Christian lifestyle of marry just one wife, as opposed to 2 or 3 wives. This is especially the case with Christian Africans in this country. So again, I stand by what I said about Africans in this country making good decisions.
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jeri, excellent post. Africans in America are an “elite” group, yet the Asians in America are just your average Asians.
But I think your comment might be falling on deaf ears, because RR, like other posters here, want to believe a certain way about groups of people and nothing short of a miracle will ever change their minds.
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And she references a Wyoming study of college students:
In a questionaire study of Caucasian college students in Wyoming, the men said that they prefered to date and mate women with light eyes and hair, and medium light skin, while the women preferred men with dark eyes and dark hair, and they disliked very light complexions in men.
Well, a study of Wyoming college students and a handful of quotes from other, similar research.
Yeah, that’s a real good sampling of human diversity right there, RR. Shit, if Wyoming college students say something – I mean, Wyoming being the deeply diverse and metropolitan place that it is – you just gotta logically presume it applies straight across humanity.
C
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eri, excellent post. Africans in America are an “elite” group, yet the Asians in America are just your average Asians.
Most of the biodeterminist research RR quotes has this same problem. It’s hardly random sampling and it doesn’t correct for class, urbanism, or any one of a number of factors which we know full well impact on things like IQ.
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J
So far Fanon is one of the biggest hypocrites that ever lived nothing more nothing less
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“Fanon is not Martin Luther King, he is a self-hating black man that married a white woman”
So have you not hear that Martin Luther King had White lovers
Where does that leave him?
As I said its the ‘Black devils is teh ones to actually look out for in the case of liberation??
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Jeri,
I do not deny that many Africans who come to this country do well (although they do significantly less well than white immigrants to this country, as I pointed out to Natasha W in another thread). My point was that average Africans (and the black Africans that come here are hardly representative of average black Africans) in Africa are quite similar to black Americans, behaviorally speaking. We were talking about black marriage specifically. Marriage is quite different in Africa than in America, but does square with the mating habits of black Americans. This is why I linked to the James Q Wilson article (http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=24001). Please read it in its entirety. I never said that black Africans, as a group, were messed up, but black Africans are doing less well than most other groups. There are some sub-Saharan African countries with GDPs lower than that of Haiti (the poorest country in the Western hemisphere).
You wrote:
And another thing, you say that the Africans who come here are part of the elite of Africa. How do you know that for sure?
Because, as Natasha W has pointed out, the Africans who come here are already well educated. Most sub-Saharan African countries have literacy rates below 60%. Public education is non-existent in most of black Africa. Only those of means have access to it.
And how would that be different from the Asians and other ethnic groups who migrate here.
It is different. To begin with, African immigrants represent the best of their representative countries intellectual elite. Asians immigrants, aren’t wholly comprised of the elite class. Asian countries have significantly higher literacy rates and muscular industrial bases. Quality of life is significantly better in many Asian nations compared to sub-Saharan nations, thus Asians keep a higher percentage of their well educated elite in their native countries than black African countries do, which hurts these black countries tremendously.
Natasha W wrote:
“Africans in America are an “elite” group, yet the Asians in America are just your average Asians.”
Not quite, but close. I’m glad we can agree on something.
“But I think your comment might be falling on deaf ears, because RR, like other posters here, want to believe a certain way about groups of people and nothing short of a miracle will ever change their minds.”
You are being quite presumptuous here. You don’t know anything about my mental state or how amenable I am to persuasion. I respect strong arguments and can be swayed. One has to actually go through the formality of presenting a strong argument in order for me to reevaluate my position(s).
Thad,
You are missing the point of the study. The point was that white men, when considering mates, make distinctions between different colors of white women and exhibiting a preference for lighter women. The study supports the assertions presented in Ectoff’s book that color preferences are universal. Frost’s work is the most extensive. I suggest you read him, then we can rap.
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RR,
Because, as Natasha W has pointed out, the Africans who come here are already well educated.
Huh? I was merely ridiculing your preposterous statements, not agreeing with you. The Africans that come here are seeking an education, not “well-educated.”
You are being quite presumptuous here. You don’t know anything about my mental state or how amenable I am to persuasion. I respect strong arguments and can be swayed. One has to actually go through the formality of presenting a strong argument in order for me to reevaluate my position(s).
We’ve debated on this very topic already and I’ve seen you debate with Thad on this, so I know your stance and I know how flexible you are on this subject, i.e. that you are inflexible and your mind is made up.
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RR,
I think you are missing the point of Thad’s comment–with a non-random sample, any conclusions drawn are moot. Looking at a group of White (a specific race) college students (a specific age group) in Wyoming (1 state, probably 1 university) is suggests the study was poorly designed, and the only accurate statements you can make based on this study are “X% of White college students at ABC University in Wyoming think __________.”
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Sorry, ignore the “is” in the 4th line of that paragraph.
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You are missing the point of the study. The point was that white men, when considering mates, make distinctions between different colors of white women and exhibiting a preference for lighter women.
No, not “white men”: a small, unrepresentative group of college students in Wyoming. The study did not choose from anything like a random distribution of white men.
The study supports the assertions presented in Ectoff’s book that color preferences are universal. Frost’s work is the most extensive. I suggest you read him, then we can rap.
No, it doesn’t for two reasons: 1) it’s sampling was incredibly narrow and nothing can be “universally” said from a sample like that; 2) Ectoff’s study likewise has severe samplinf issues on this point and, in any case, does not claim that lighter sikin is a universal preference.
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Thad,
Jinx! 🙂
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Natasha,
I’m waiting for you to make a good argument, which you have not done. You know nothing of my mental state.
Jasmine,
It is Thad who has missed the point. The idea was not to view the study in isolation, but to interpret the results along with the other arguments presented in the book regarding skin color preference. After all, it was only a questionnaire. We don’t know whether the white men surveyed were even being truthful regarding their preferences. But we do know that the results seem to support the notion that men and women have color preferences regarding mate selection. The study is not “proof”of color preference but it is indicative of a trend around which some scientists have constructed a theory.
Thad,
Recall the exact words I used:
The study supports the assertions presented in Ectoff’s book that color preferences are universal.
Regardless of whether one believes the study to be valid, the results of the study do support the notion that color preferences are universal. One could argue that the theory of color preferences is itself flawed. This would be reasonable. But that is not what we are arguing over specifically here. We started off arguing about whether science had addressed the question of color preference. We continued debating whether Ectoff herself believed in color preferences. After I affirmed both questions, you are now quibbling about whether a questionnaire given to college students is valid.
Read Frost’s book please. Then we can rap about whether color preferences are universal.
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RR, I’m waiting for you to not misrepresent a researcher’s findings. Which you have not done. Ever. As soon as you do, I will present my arguments.
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But RR, if as you yourself say we have all these reasons to doubt the study, why would you use it as evidence of anything significant? If I told you that eating bananas causes you to grow a 3rd arm because I surveyed the commenters on this blog and 99% agreed, would you believe me?
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The study supports the assertions presented in Ectoff’s book that color preferences are universal.
Garbage in, garbage out, RR. If the study is extremely limited and focus and you are attempting to claim its validity is transhuman, it doesn’t support shit.
Natasha sez:
RR, I’m waiting for you to not misrepresent a researcher’s findings. Which you have not done. Ever.
Straight up, Nat.
RR, you have never reported scientific findings accurately here. Not once.
Don’t you think you should be worried about how your political correctness is distorting your view of other peoples’ science?
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Jasmin,
As I tried to point out previously, this particular intra-thread discussion was precipitated by Thad when he said that there hadn’t been any science done regarding the study of universal standards of beauty with respect to color and hair grade/length. He wrote:
“Finally, science has shown nothing at all about a supposed “long-haired fair-skinned” archetype being universally considered as beautiful. There has been some work that suggests that human beings, as a whole, see symetry as beautiful. That’s about all real science (as opposed to politically-based pseudo-science) has come up with so far.
I proved to him that there had been real science conducted in this area. He asked me to show where in Nancy Cutoff’s book “Survival of the Prettiest” the notion of color preference was asserted. I did that. The Wyoming study, whether one agrees with it or not, does support the pro-color preference argument. Thad was under the impression that the notion of color preference was not enunciated in the book. I proved him wrong. This was the point of the discussion.
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Natasha W,
You wrote:
The Africans that come here are seeking an education, not “well-educated
Not necessarily. Most already have educations at least at the primary school level, which puts them ahead of most of their brethern in Africa.
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….there hadn’t been any science done regarding the study of universal standards of beauty with respect to color and hair grade/length.
That’s correct. By “science” I mean studies which have some sort of epistemological basis and not simply politically correct, right-wing wishful thinking.
So far, the studies you’ve cited either fall into that category or don’t support the hypotheses you claim they support.
He asked me to show where in Nancy Cutoff’s book “Survival of the Prettiest” the notion of color preference was asserted. I did that.
Sorry, no. Etcoff’s study has nothing at all to say about color preference aside from some very vague speculations. The Wyoming study does not support anything at all regarding humanity as a whole – though I will buy the idea that it supports the hypothesis that there are quite a few white supremacists in Wyoming, if you’d like to articlutae that hypothesis.
Again, RR, you fail to understand basic scientific methodology.
Sorry, kiddo. Back to freshman “Philosophy of Science 101” for you. 😀
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Wow, are you serious, RR? You consider a primary school education to be “well-educated?” Please quit while you are behind.
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Natasha,
Education is relative, like race and intelligence. If one person has a primary school education, compared to a person who has no education, the former is well educated compared to the latter.
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RR, the rate of primary school completion in the countries where most African immigrants come from is well over 50 percent, and in South Africa and Nigeria, the rate is close to 90 percent. So I have no idea what you mean by “relative.”
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Natasha,
Do you have a reference citing the primary school completion rate? Most sub-Saharan African countries have literacy rates below 60%. Nigeria’s literacy rate is 70%. Again, education is relative. Even if what you say is true, this says nothing of the quality of primary school education that the average African receives as compared to that of the elite. This is what I mean by relative.
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Like I said, inflexible… more interested in being “right,” than in the actual facts of the matter. Nothing wrong with that, but you’re being disingenuous when you present yourself as anything but. Might as well call you no_slappz. 🙂
But anyway, this is quite off-topic. I don’t even know how we got here. I’m sure we’ll get to this topic again, and I’ll get into this some more then. So until next time.
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RR
I am going to get back to what you said earlier about the elite of Africa getting a primary education. Well, over 90% of African Americans get at least a MIDDLE SCHOOL education. But like I expressed to you before, my grandmother told me that the ethnic group that did the best at her university were black Africans that imigrated to this country. Why do you think the Black Africans would do better than the African Americans at her university? And most Africans that come to this country are no more educated than the average American. Most have a highschool education. Yet when they come here, they do remakably well. This is from my own experience. Most of the Africans that I have met either have a college degree or they have their own businesses. Most of my Nigerian friends that I know who have a bachelor’s degree got it here in America. So why would African highschool graduates do so much better than other ethnic groups in this country? And I believe that Nigeria is a country that is more prosperous and more educated than other African countries. So the Nigerians that come here are no more elite than other Nigerians. African countries are not all the same. Some African governments have different priorities than others. Some African countries are wealthier than others. So like I said earlier, in most areas of Nigerian, education is a top priority. I think what area of Nigeria you are refering to is important as well. In the northern part of Nigeria, there are many muslims. In many muslim societies, women are not encouraged to get a education, so the literacy rate maybe lower there. But in other parts of Nigeria, both men and women are encouraged to their education. So like I said before, the Nigerians that come here are no more elite than the ones at home.
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Natasha W
You are right. It seems as if people are determined to have a poor attitude about certain ethnic groups, especially Africans. I keep trying to emphasize that African culture and the fact that they are exposed to less racism, especially in the media, frees them to make better decisions. I believe without a shadow of a doubt that if you are a child and no one has told you that you are inferior, you are way more likely to make better decisions. When I was a child, my parents told me all the time that I was born gifted, like all the children of the world. They told me I could do whatever I wanted to. They said that my whoolly hair was good hair. They said that Africans ( especially the Ancient Egyptians) had accomplished great things. I was often remind that many African Americans were great inventors and great educators. They made a point to expose me to African American history, the arts ( like Alvin Ailey), and poetry. Even though I was exposed to racist ideas, I believed in myself. Because of this, I was a very good student and refused to listen to people when they said that black hair was “bad” hair. I refused to perm my hair until my mid 20’s. My hair was extremely thick and long because it was healthy. I made good decisions also in who I dated and in other areas in my life. I am not saying that I haven’t felt insecure about myself because of my race, but my early experiences helped me to form a positive attitude about myself and other people of African ancestry. I know without a shadow of a doubt that you can help shield your children from racism by teaching them early in their development that they are just as good as anyone else. African Americans can reclaim their successful heritage by how we raise our children. I keep trying to tell RR that being exposed to less racism (especially psychological racism) in Africa has allowed them to be more motivated in terms of pursuing great things. Their culture that promotes family and success has remained intact because it hasn’t been damaged by slavery and extreme forms of racism. But it seems that people want to believe what they want to be believe.
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There is something very interesting about the comments on Fanon which needs an overview in my opinion.
Nearly all the views espoused against Fanon falls into the category of White Supremacy/Euro centred/ White feminism.
Those who have critiqued Fanon have taken up either one or all three of the aforesaid, without these individuals apparently being aware of this – some are, in my opinion.
Its only two individuals, who have argued consistently here that the views against Fanon are incorrect.
One of the individuals is White. On a apparently pro-Black site, this is very ironic. Especially as this individual has been criticised heavily for giving a correct analysis of Fanon – and also on other matters pertaining to race, for not being ‘Black enough’, or at least intimated.
His analysis on Fanon has been very thorough. The other person has given excerpts from Books, from a Black female/African centred orientation. These authors also show that the critique against Fanon in the Western world is essentially a White Supremacist/Euro-centred/White feminism analysis.
In spite of this these links, they have not been read, or if they have been read, they have not been understood, either deliberately, or through a process of not wanting to know what the facts are (ie lack of humility to learn).
Those who have used the White Supremacist/Euro centred White Feminism analysis to critique Fanon has not taken the time to read Fanon. Even if tehy did read Fanon, personally I don’t think they still would understand, either through their unwillngness or their desire to engage critical thinking.
This is why when a through analysis of Fanon is given there is no real critique of substance. Admittedly there is a repeat of teh White Supremacy/Euro centred/White Feminism argument, but what is missing is the substance of that critique.
What we have is individuals coming here shouting and constantly reiterating the same mantra as if constantly repeating it will make the facts true regarding Fanon. My mind goes back to Nazi Propaganda in the 1930s.
Finally because those who were against Fanon were so dominant, many here have jumped on the White Supremacy/Euro centred/White feminist bandwagon, some in the belief they are defending Black women against the designs of Black men. Others just going with the staus quo
Here I am reminded of Fanon when he writes :
“Two centuries of White truth (ie read the consensus against Fanon here) had proven this man wrong”.
Thank you for your efforts Thad against a ‘Black tide’ or should that be a ‘Black Skin White Mask’ tide.
At least through your efforts I think you have managed to do so.
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Natasha,
You wrote:
Like I said, inflexible… more interested in being “right,” than in the actual facts of the matter.
I would appreciate it if you would actually present facts. I don’t think I’m being dogmatic in asking you to cite a reference for data you presented. Is that really asking too much?
Jeri,
You wrote:
And most Africans that come to this country are no more educated than the average American.
Is it possible for you to provide a reference for this statistic? This is one thing I really dislike about our people. We don’t like numbers. Feelings seem to be all that matter to us. Can anyone backup anything around here?
So the Nigerians that come here are no more elite than other Nigerians.
I don’t know about you, but most of the Nigerians I have met here in the US are Ibo. They are called “The Jews of Africa”. They are definitely an elite group. Have you even bothered to check what tribe the Africans you encounter are from?
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Since the subject of Nigeria has been raised, here’s a question:
What keeps Nigeria — with its huge oil reserves — from being as prosperous as Norway, which enjoys a similar abundance of petroleum due to its North Sea holdings?
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RR
I will admit I have met alot of Igbo but I have met Yoruba and other tribes as well such as the Hausa. You said that the Igbo are called the “Jews of Africa” Why is that? I will be honest with you. The little that I know about the Igbo is that they were involved in a war with the rest of Nigeria during the 1960’s and 70’s. It was called the Biafran war or something like that. They were defeated in this war so much so that many died due to starvation. It took awhile for the Igbo’s to recover because of that war. If they are the Jews of Africa, then give me some evidence as to why. And furthermore, just as you are talking about your experience with the Igbo, I am talking my experience with Nigerians also. Most of the Nigerians that I have met came here with only a highschool education. They went to school here and got their degree. I know a couple who already had their degrees before they came here but that was not the majority. And you said that the Africans are more elite than the other ethnicities like the Asians. Well my mother attended a university to get her degree and I met alot of graduate students from Asia who got their degree back in China. So you can say that alot of Asians were also quite educated before they came. What’s the difference?
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No Slappz
Maybe the oil companies were more generous with other countries concerning their oil reserves than they were with the Africans. Maybe the Africans sold themselves cheaply due to pressure from the oil companies. Racism can affect situations like oil as well. If you have a different perspective then tell me.
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RR
I already admited the Nigerians, probably due their oil reserves, were wealthier than other countries. That might have allowed them to develope a better educational system. Henceforth, you see more Nigerians here than any other African group. But that still would not explain the differences between the behavior of Africans and African Americans.
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RR
There are many Chinese immigrants and they are quite successful. Well China is more wealthier than other Asia countries,except Japan, at least in the last 20 years. Well you can say that the Chinese are the “elite of Asia”. Chinese tend to due better than other Asian groups, such as the Vietnamese, in this country. Once again, what is your point concerning the Africans?
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And if the Igbo are elite, it may have something to do with their being overwhelmingly Christian. Other ethnic groups may be more inclined to be muslim, henceforth, maybe not as many women are encouraged to get their education. But like I mentioned earlier, quite a few of them when they got here had high school diplomas, not all, but many. Well how is that different from the average African American? Remember, in the beginning of our discussion, we were comparing Africans to African Americans. If African Americans are exposed to even more opportunities and live in a society that promotes monogamy, why would African Americans marry less? Why wouldn’t education be promoted as much among African Americans?
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jeri, you wrote:
“Maybe the oil companies were more generous with other countries concerning their oil reserves than they were with the Africans.”
Utter nonsense. The price of oil is set daily on World Oil Markets. Moreover, the owners of the oil control the negotiations with the oil companies who are nothing more than guests who operate at the pleasure of the host country.
In fact, a number of years ago, Nigeria seized the oil refineries that oil companies had built there. The Nigerian government decided there was no need to share profits with the foreign owners of the refineries.
Then the Nigerian government learned it was incapable of operating the refineries. There were three and all three fell into such a state of disrepair that they ceased to function and Nigieria had to sell its oil to operators in other countries who had available refining capacity.
Then the Nigerian government wised up and invited the experts to return. Now the refineries are jointly owned by Nigeria and the oil companies, and they have begun to function again.
You wrote:
“Maybe the Africans sold themselves cheaply due to pressure from the oil companies.”
In other words, you think the Nigerians are naive nitwits who cannot strike a fair deal for themselves. What in the world makes you think the oil companies control the situation? Governments — Nigerian government, in this case — control access to the oil. Moreover, governments have guns. Oil companies do not. Oil companies offer deals. Not threats.
You wrote:
“Racism can affect situations like oil as well. If you have a different perspective then tell me.”
The trouble surrounding oil in Nigeria exists between the tribes and the Nigerian government — which is a thugocracy.
The oil companies have only two options — follow the laws established by the government of Nigeria. Or drill and operate oil wells somewhere else on the planet.
Racism has no role in Nigeria’s poverty. by the way, about half the people in Nigeria are still waiting for indoor plumbing and household electricity.
I ask again. Why, with all its oil, is Nigeria a backward slum? It should be like Norway. But it is not.
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Jeri,
You wrote:
You said that the Igbo are called the “Jews of Africa” Why is that?
It is due to their outsized record of achievement relative to other black African tribes. As you might imagine (and mentioned with the Nigerian-Biafran War), there is quite a bit of animosity directed at the Igbo from other Nigerians (http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=6789f5a471a697c8f192476f7baeeb60)
Most of the Nigerians that I have met came here with only a highschool education.
Obviously, levels of high school education vary tremendously. There are those who graduate from high school without being able to read. And there are those who graduate high school with the educational equivalent of a good junior college. My contention is that the Igbo are much better educated than their non-Igbo Nigerian brethren before they get to this country.
So you can say that alot of Asians were also quite educated before they came. What’s the difference?
The difference is that many of the Asians that immigrate here come from countries with significantly higher standards of living. That is, while life in the US is better for many Asians, life isn’t intolerable in their home countries, thus many of their elite choose to either stay in their home countries, or return to their home countries after being educated abroad. Whereas for Nigerians, standards of living are so bad that those who have the wherewithal to immigrate, do (Life expectancy in Nigeria is about 47 years, as compared to about 73 years for China, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy). Generally speaking, Nigerian ex-pats don’t return to Nigeria, except to visit. This out-migration is concentrated at the elite levels of Nigerian society.
If African Americans are exposed to even more opportunities and live in a society that promotes monogamy, why would African Americans marry less? Why wouldn’t education be promoted as much among African Americans?
You have to make an apples-to-apples comparison. Elite African-Americans do marry (although less often than their white counterparts, but significantly more than average American blacks). Education is also promoted among the US black elite. But because Nigerian immigrants compose a self-selected elite, their achievement rate is greater. Average African-Americans conform more to the average black African (i.e. of blacks currently living in Africa) level of behavior
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no_slappz,
You wrote:
“Racism has no role in Nigeria’s poverty.”
This isn’t quite accurate. While it is true that current white racism plays no part in Nigeria’s poverty, the legacy effects of the slave trade on Nigerian living standards can’t be dismissed out of hand. I’m not going to enumerate those effects here (that topic deserves its own thread), but I will say the effects are substantial.
Black racism manifests itself amongst the various Nigerian tribes, which you noted previously. Norway doesn’t have these internecine struggles because Norway is racially and ethnically homogenous (more or less). Its borders were set organically, instead of being set from without, as was the case for Nigeria.
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Generally speaking, Nigerian ex-pats don’t return to Nigeria, except to visit.
Utter BS.
RR, please stop speaking as if you know anything about Nigeria, quality of life therein, or the hierarchy of groups. Someone might read this and think you know what you’re talking about. Which it is quite obvious to me that you don’t.
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RR
I agree with Natasha W. You act as if you know everything about Nigeria and I don’t think that you do. You insist on saying that the Africans in this country are successful because they come from the elite. But let’s get back to marriage. I am not buying this thing that you are saying that elite people get married and non elite people don’t. Virtually every African that I have met was married. I have met very few that was not married. Even the few Africans that I met that were cab drivers were married. Also I don’t believe that the poorer Africans that are in Nigeria or even other African countries are not getting married like the poorer African Americans here. Do you realize that the 2000 census indicated that there are 8 million African Americans that aren’t married that should be married if you compare African Americans to white Americans. No I am not buying your concept that only the elite of world get married somehow and that the poor don’t. There are poor people all over the world who get married. Like I said before, I would think that poor people would marry all the more so because when you are poor, you have to depend on other people all the more so. When two people get married, they combine their incomes and resources, allowing them to have a better lifestyle. And you keep mentioning that the Africans are the elite. You said that the Igbo are the “Jews of Africa” Well, I read the article you sent us, your evidence that the Igbo are the elite may have been misinterpreted. The Jews and the Igbo have something in common in that they have both been persercuted by neighboring ethnic groups. The Igbo were slaughtered by the millions in the Biafran war and have continued to experience discrimination in their countries. Just like the Jews have sought to have their own nation in Israel, the Igbo have sought to have their own Biafra nation. Yes they are recognized for their hard work, but currently there are other tribes such as the Yoruba who are dominating the government right now. Like I said before, I think Nigeria is richer than other countries because of their oil reserves. This allows them to create a better educational system. Hence many Africans are educated, not just the Igbo. I have met Yoruba people who are well educated. I have also met people from smaller Nigerian tribes who have their college degrees. I don’t agree with you that Africans in this country marry at high rates primarily because of them being elite or well educated. Africans that come here are from various backgrounds. And even if they are more educated. So what. Like I said before, some of them are college educated when they come here. Some only have their highschool diplomas. Like I said before, many African Americans are well educated in the sense that they have their highschool and college educations, yet those same people are not getting married. I have also met quite a few college educated African Americans who are not married. They may be shacking up or in long term relationships, but not married. No. There is something very wrong with what is going on right now with African Americans not getting married. And to say that lack of money is the problem to me is just an excuse.
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RR
And you mentioned yourself that African Americans in this country were married at a greater rate back in the times of Jim Crow. There were probably significantly less blacks who were educated and had money back then than now. So once again, to say that blacks don’t get married because of money or lack of education is an excuse. Most blacks have their highschool education. I think our people tend to make excuses for not doing what they know in their hearts is right. Marriage is important. Children should grow up in a two parent family. Some people mentioned before other reasons for why blacks don’t marry. One of the reasons that was mentioned is the great availability of sex for African American men. I think he mentioned something about all the “booty” that is availabe. Why buy the cow, when you can get the horse for free. I know I mentioned this before. Black women should act as if they have a chastity belt on. Or else, they won’t be respected. I know this might be difficult but I think that black women sell themselves cheap. They compromise too much when it comes to relationships. Anyway, that is my opinion. Also a few African American women may have a “I don’t need a man” attitude. This may cause a lot of women to act defensively. Well, we do need one another. This is especially the case if we are going to have children. It is not fair for children to grow up without a father. If black people don’t promote the family, we will be at a constant disadvantage in comparison to other ethnic groups. Both black men and women need to examine themselves.
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Natasha,
I would have to question what you really know about Nigeria. The country DOES have a negative migration rate, i.e. more people leave the country than enter it (http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?c=ni&v=27). Nigeria does have an average life expectancy of 47 (see link above). I know you are not one to be too concerned about facts and statistics. Feelings matter more to you than reality. I can relate to that, but sentiment is no substitute for argumentation. Please present data that supports your counter argument.
Jeri,
I never claimed to know everything about Nigeria. I do know a few pertinient things about living standards in Nigeria. One of those things is that upper class Nigerians are more likely to immigrate from Nigeria than lower class Nigerians. From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigerian_American) we get an inkling of this:
“During the mid- to late-1980s, a larger wave of Nigerians immigrated to the United States. This migration was driven by political and economic problems exacerbated by the military regimes of self-styled generals Ibrahim Babangida and Sani Abacha. The most noticeable exodus occurred among professional and middle-class Nigerians who, along with their children, took advantage of education and employment opportunities in the United States.”
You wrote:
“Also I don’t believe that the poorer Africans that are in Nigeria or even other African countries are not getting married like the poorer African Americans here.”
Again, this is not an apples to apples comparison. Marriage is different in Africa than it is in the West. As you well know, families are matriarchal in structure in sub-Saharan African, as they are for blacks here in the US.
No I am not buying your concept that only the elite of world get married somehow and that the poor don’t.
I never said this. I’m saying that upper-class people in the US are more likely to marry than lower class people, although lower class people are more likely to have children regardless of marital status. Orlando Patterson writes of this in his book “Rituals of Blood”. It is also mentioned in passing in this article:
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/03/how-a-new-jobless-era-will-transform-america/7919/
There is something very wrong with what is going on right now with African Americans not getting married.
It is not just American blacks who are failing to marry. Marriage rates are down for whites as well, with a commenserate rise in white illegitimacy.
Some people mentioned before other reasons for why blacks don’t marry. One of the reasons that was mentioned is the great availability of sex for African American men. I think he mentioned something about all the “booty” that is availabe.
That commenter was spot on. I agree with him wholeheartedly. That guy is one righteous brother. I couldn’t have said it better myself. Oh wait. I did say it myself. Nevermind:)
I know I mentioned this before. Black women should act as if they have a chastity belt on. Or else, they won’t be respected. I know this might be difficult but I think that black women sell themselves cheap.
You are cooking with gas now. Preach on! You have my complete support.
Also a few African American women may have a “I don’t need a man” attitude. This may cause a lot of women to act defensively. Well, we do need one another.
In defense of my black American sisters, their feelings are not without basis. In the West, men are increasingly seen as redundant. Machines have dispensed with large amounts of manual labor, which has made many men unemployable. Although the people who develop the machines (and the software that manages them) are overwhelmingly male, women have supplanted men in many other areas. White women now outnumber white men on most college campuses (but not on elite campuses). Women don’t really seem to need men these days, except for sex (recreational and pro-creative). I don’t like this fact, but it is a fact nonetheless. Women in general, and black women specifically are not responsible for this (although they have certainly not helped matters). Feminism and modernity are responsible for this. What black women are responsible for is the elevation of the thug as the epitome of masculinity.
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RR,
I know you are not one to be too concerned about facts and statistics. Feelings matter more to you than reality.
Lol, it’s obvious you know nothing and a half about me based on that statement.
Since you can’t seem to put two and two together, most/all of the Nigerian immigrants in the US came in the 80s-90s, and were born in the late 50s and 60s. Therefore any data about them entering or leaving Nigeria is worthless, as they would have only left some 20 odd years ago at most.
You’re trying to present yourself as impartial and concerned with facts, when you simply cherry-pick data and studies that support your biases (not to mention misrepresent such studies), and deny or excuse away that which does not. But, really, this is de rigueur for a white supremacist such as yourself. I don’t know why I bother.
As you well know, families are matriarchal in structure in sub-Saharan African, as they are for blacks here in the US.
This is false. Completely and utterly false. Stop embarassing yourself and stop making up things. The family structure is one of the key differences between Africans and African-Americans. Anyone who actually knows Nigerians or other W. Africans, rather than picking things off Wikipedia, knows that the family structure is patriarchal. Very much so. Actually, a quick Google search would tell you this.
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“I don’t know why I bother.”
I respond to many post like this when I am painting, waxing floors or doing some other mundane task. I can tell you this though, it beats watching paint dry!
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^Lol. I am doing some boring work at the moment. But it gets tiring having to keep returning to the same page multiple times a day to see RR pull some more half-truths out of that place where the sun doesn’t shine.
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RR
You said that the marriage rates is down with whites. I actually looked at the census statistics for 2000. Whites are twice as likely as blacks to be married. There were 200 million whites in the United States and 50 million marriages in the white community. At that time, there were 33 million African Americans and only 4 million marriages. Now the marriage to population ratio for whites is 50/200 or 1/4 while the marriage to population ratio for African Americans is 4/33 or close to 1/8. Thus they are twice as likely to get married. There are divorces in all communities, so that is not the point. There are illegitimate births in all communities but once again, the point I am making is that the problem is significantly worse in the African American community. And I think you are just pulling at straws when you say that the Africans are matriarchal. You would say anything to justify your argument. I agree with Natasha, Africa is way more patriachal than the African American community. And if both groups are both matriarchal (like you said), how do you account for the differences in behavior? No, Africa is way more patriarchal. However, I do think African women are respected more. They don’t live in a community where black women are consistently degraded and underappreciate. Like I said before, you are purposely missing the point on this subject. Poor people in countries all over the world, rather they are matriarchal or patriarchal, rather they are in African, Asia, South America or whatever, marry at higher rates. And I didn’t know who made the comment about the availability of sex being too high for African American men. I wasn’t aware of you saying it but I agree with you totally on this subject. It is one of the few subjects I do agree with you on. Black women need to start respecting themselves as a group. Once again, why buy the cow, when you can get the milk for free.
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rr, you wrote:
“Black racism manifests itself amongst the various Nigerian tribes, which you noted previously. Norway doesn’t have these internecine struggles because Norway is racially and ethnically homogenous (more or less). Its borders were set organically, instead of being set from without, as was the case for Nigeria.”
The subtext of your comment boils down to stating that despite its oil wealth, Nigeria has no future because it is a hostage to a past it cannot change.
That view seems to define the thinking of most people at this site. In fact, that view seems to be the base for most blacks with respect to the future of blacks in every country.
Seems hopelessness is the prevailing sentiment.
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no_slappz,
Don’t infer any subtext from my comment. Take it as it is. I stated that your comment wasn’t quite accurate (which it isn’t). There is no white conspiracy to keep Nigeria (and the rest of black Africa) poor. Nigerians have made a hash of things, but it is not entirely their fault. It is their responsibility to get their country in order, no one else’s.
Natasha,
The migration rate for Nigerian is not age normed. It is a net figure. More people are leaving Nigeria currently than entering. More Nigerian emigrants opt not to return permanently to Nigeria than those who do. Again, show me your data.
when you simply cherry-pick data and studies that support your biases (not to mention misrepresent such studies)
Is it too much to ask that you SHOW me how I’m misrepresenting data? It is not enough to declare that I am wrong. Show me that I am wrong, if you can. Can you present data to support your counter argument? Please do so, IF YOU CAN.
“As you well know, families are matriarchal in structure in sub-Saharan African, as they are for blacks here in the US.
This is false. Completely and utterly false.”
You are right Natasha. My use of the word matriarchal in describing African and African American family structure was false. What I should have said was the following:
Family structure in sub-Saharan Africa is quite similar to black family structure here in the US.
I stand corrected.
“The family structure is one of the key differences between Africans and African-Americans.”
No it isn’t actually. The family structures are similar. In both, we have the following:
1) Relatively low paternity certainty.
2) Relatively low paternal investment.
3) Women outnumbering men.
4) Women doing more work than men.
5) Children being fostered out to people other than their parents to raise.
6) Relatively strong extended family ties (usually among women) but weak nuclear ties.
7) Women primarily responsible for the well-being of the children they bear.
But, really, this is de rigueur for a white supremacist such as yourself.
Yup. That’s me. Always singing the praises of the white man.
Jeri,
White marriage rates are down relative to where they were in the 1970s, not relative to the black marriage rate.
There are illegitimate births in all communities but once again, the point I am making is that the problem is significantly worse in the African American community.
You’ll get no argument from me on this point. The fact of the matter is that the white marriage rate is lower than it has been in the past. Ditto for blacks, although more pronounced for blacks.
However, I do think African women are respected more. They don’t live in a community where black women are consistently degraded and underappreciate.
Please examine how Africans behave IN AFRICA! To my knowledge, American blacks don’t practice female genital mutilation on our women and girls (http://www.members.tripod.com/Wolvesdreams/FGM.html). You can say what you want to about us, but we don’t engage in that madness! We don’t engage in sexual slavery either (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3019838.stm). Yeah, women in Africa are really respected. It makes one wonder why so many of them choose to leave such a sexual egalitarian paradise.
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RR
Well you won’t get an argument from ME about female circumcision. I hate that practice. It is one of the most foolish practices in the world. I have a hard time wondering why women allow themselves to go through that. No, I didn’t say that life was perfect in Africa. There are some backwards practices. Fortunately, not all African females have gone through that. I think the more educated Africans are refusing to practice this. I spoke to a close Nigerian friend of mine about female circumcision. I asked a personnel question as to rather it was done to her. She said that her parents wouldn’t allow it to happen. I don’t know the rates as to how often this happens, but more and more people are resisting it. No, women in terms of sexual expression are not respected. I mean it is obvious that some Africans have some crazy fear of women experiencing orgasm or sexual pleasure. No, I mean women are respected in that they are considered suitable marriage partners, both in this country and in Africa. I think I read somewhere that Africans marry their own ethnic group greater than any other ethnic group in this country. I have heard many young African female friends praise their men for being good husbands and providers. They told ME that I should marry an African instead of a African American.
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RR
I am still not getting the point as to what you are saying concerning the difference between African and Asian immigrants. You say that Africans are the elite and the Asian immigrant are more like the typical Asians at home. You are saying that the average African person in Africa is not educated. Henceforth, when educated Africans leave, Africa is loosing it’s best. There are many educated Asians living in Asia so when educated Asians leave Asia, it is not as if Asia is loosing an important group. Okay. So what. What is your point? What does that have to do with the discussion. The point I am making is that both Africans and Asians immigrants come here to pursue better economic and educational opportunities. Both groups have either a high school or college diploma when coming here. Both come from various backgrounds, but because of their CULTURE, they tend to be highly ambitious and hardworking. Both are highly successful ethnic groups in this country. I will say this for the third time. Africans are often the most successful students at universities, even more successful than the Asians. Both groups of immigrants have a culture that promotes family unity and marriage. I never said there weren’t problems in the African society. You mentioned female circumcision. I admit that is a problem. But lets get back to marriage. Africans immigrants in this country practice marriage at a significantly higher rate, rather they are upper middle class college professors or working class cab drivers. Culture incentives are important. For some reason, African American culture is becoming worse and worse when it comes to promoting family. So family and marriage breakdown is not a “black thing”. It is a African American problem. The African American culture is deteriorating to the point that marriages is decreasing at an alarming rate, a rate that is far worse than in the white community.
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And as for African immigrants, I am not sure if female circumcision is a problem. Second generation Africans probably don’t circumsize their daughters. However, I do see second generation Africans following in their parents footsteps when it comes to pursuing an education. My African female friend told me that she tells her children on a regular basis to keep their grades up at the colleges they attend. She doesn’t leave room for failure. Every time I talk to her and other Africans, they are talking about education this and education that. Most of the second generation Africans are getting a college education just like their parents. I mean they don’t have a choice. Their parents refuse to accept them not going to school.
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In my last comment, I meant to say that second generation female Africans are probably not circumsized.
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Jeri,
You wrote:
No, I mean women are respected in that they are considered suitable marriage partners, both in this country and in Africa.
What makes you think they are respected just because they are deemed marriageable? My radical feminist friends would have a field day with that one, and in this instance, I would have to agree with them. Maybe their prospective husbands view them as “mules of the world” as Hurston has written.
I have heard many young African female friends praise their men for being good husbands and providers. They told ME that I should marry an African instead of a African American.
Perhaps you should. Again, you are not making an apples to apples comparison. African immigrants are not absolutely representative of Africans in general. Focus on how Africans live in Africa. This will give you an indication of the state of affairs.
You say that Africans are the elite and the Asian immigrant are more like the typical Asians at home.
I’m saying that elites compose a disproportionally large percentage of African immigrants as compared to Asian immigrants.
You are saying that the average African person in Africa is not educated.
No. I’m saying that African immigrants are, on average, better educated than average Africans.
Henceforth, when educated Africans leave, Africa is loosing it’s best.
A large percentage of its best, yes.
Africans are often the most successful students at universities, even more successful than the Asians.
This isn’t true. They have higher levels of education on average, but attain their degrees from weaker schools in weaker disciplines and have poorer grades compared to Asians.
Africans immigrants in this country practice marriage at a significantly higher rate, rather they are upper middle class college professors or working class cab drivers.
You are missing the point. Focus on what average Africans do IN AFRICA.
So family and marriage breakdown is not a “black thing”. It is a African American problem.
No, it is a black thing, although not exclusively a black thing. Again, focus on Africans living in Africa (taking into account the different family structure that exists in Africa as compared to the white West). And while you are at it, check out Jamaicans living in Jamaica and Haitians living in Haiti. You will see many of the same problems: High crime, high illegitimacy, low paternal investment, etc. Note, the institution of marriage has broken down for whites also (look at Ladism in the U.K.) but is not as pronounced as it is among blacks, generally.
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RR
You said that African women are considered suitable marriage partners because they could be considered the “mules of the world” Now that is funny. I think you are projecting white racist concepts that are accepted in THIS country and placing them on Africans as if Africans think like the men here. Yeah, okay. My mother dated an African man for 4 years. She said she never had a man that spoiled her as much as her African boyfriend. He cooked for her, took her on vacations etc. I know African American women who are married to African men. Both of these women are spoiled housewives while their men pay all the bills. They live in beautiful large houses in the suburbs. Their husband own their own businesses. The only problem with African men is that they have tend to have a more dominate attidude, meaning the women should stay at home, obey their husband etc. But I don’t think they are abusive or cruel or my mother wouldn’t have stayed with her man for so long. She seemed delighted by him. The only reason why they didn’t last is because he went back home to Africa to be with his family. So you don’t know what you are talking about. Just because black men HERE don’t respect black women doesn’t mean that Africans are the same way. And as for you saying that Africans practice weaker disciplines, the Africans that I have met had college majors like Biochemistry, Pharmacy, Pre-med. I had a college professor who was African. He was my calculus professor. Most the Africans that I know have math and science majors, not weaker curriculums. And they do quite well at them. I won’t say that Africans are the best students at all universities, But like I told you before. They were definitely without a doubt the best students at my grandmother’s university. She researched this. I am not sure what university this was because my grandmother got her degrees at two different universities but this definitely happened. I don’t know where you come up with this information. The Africans I know are disciplined students. Two of my Africans friends got their degree in Pharmacy within a year of one another. All the other African young people that I met were going to school with science majors. In fact, I have never met a African that wasn’t in a science or math major. So what are you talking about? And I don’t think that the African women would have bragged about African men the way they did if their men were horrible husbands and providers. And you keep saying I should dwell on the Africans in Africa, why? The AFricans here are a perfect example of what blacks can accomplish if you work hard and focus on what is important. Like many immigrants groups, Africans come from a poor environment some of the time, but when they come HERE, they excel. You seem to have a problem with praising African immigrants. You want to focus on the Africans at home, as if environment can’t play a role. And then I think you have an extremely negative attitude about Africans in Africa as if all of them are messed up people who can’t get their act together. You sound as bad as white people. Well I have spent quite a large time with Africans. They are an articulate, hardworking, highly spiritual ( most of the them were Christians), joyful people. Most were highly intelligent. Even the cab drivers seemed highly intelligent. I am proud of their efforts here and nothing you can say like African women being the “mules of the world” can change that. You want to believe the worst, fine. I know better, even if you don’t.
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@Jeri
I’m Nigerian and I’m giving you a big cyber hug 🙂
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And then to say that family problems is a black thing. You are now seriously getting out of line. You act as if you know everything about Africans. Like I told you before, more and more Africans are practicing monogamy for religious reasons. Because they are becoming Christians at a extremely high rate, the structure of the family is changing in Africa for the better. So once again, you don’t what you are talking about. Black men in this country such yourself seem to like coming up with excuses for why African Americans can’t get their act together. Well if African immigrants in this country can marry and have stable family situations, And I am going to emphasize THIS COUNTRY, then their is no excuse for African Americans not doing it. Africans Americans may have experienced more mental racism, but anyone can change if they put their minds to it. You simply have to let go of self hating, self destructive attitudes. I am humble enough to admit that I don’t know everything about African family structure in Africa, because I have never been there. Unlike you, I know better than to generalize about a group of people I have never met. But I HAVE met Africans here, And my experiences with them have mostly been positve ones. “Mules of the world” . You have a very narrow minded attitude about blacks and how they perceive life. You seem to believe that negativity is a black thing. Well it isn’t. Life is about perception. If you believe you can do something, you can. I think Africans haven’t been burdened down with pyschological racism as much, hence they are confident and strong. We can learn alot from their experiences. The problem with African Americans is that many of them have a “crab in the barrel attitude”. Many of them have bought the lies that people have said about them. Well, I won’t believe it. If you want to, that is fine. It is a individual thing.
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Aiyo
Thanks. Much love to you also.
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The migration rate for Nigerian is not age normed. It is a net figure. More people are leaving Nigeria currently than entering.
Please. Don’t try to cover up that you had no basis for that statement. There are next to no immigrants that are near retirement age. Who is to say they won’t return in 20 or 30 years time?
1) Relatively low paternity certainty.
2) Relatively low paternal investment.
4) Women doing more work than men.
5) Children being fostered out to people other than their parents to raise.
6) Relatively strong extended family ties (usually among women) but weak nuclear ties.
7) Women primarily responsible for the well-being of the children they bear.
This is false.
I won’t bother looking up sources for you as I am quite sure you are aware this is false, at least for the people and countries in question. Africa is not a monolithic place as you would like to present it as.
This discussion is a grand exercise in futility. I’ll just stick by my first statement and say “Adios!” Jeri, I would suggest you do the same unless you like talking to yourself.
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Natasha W
I agree with you. The more I talk to him, the more he comes up with fantasies about Africans. He is determined to think the way he wants to think. Oh well, I’m done. I just hope that African Americans are not convinced by his arguments. African Americans, think for yourself. Don’t let people cloud your judgement as to what it means to be black and African. Stay positive.
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Because they are becoming Christians at a extremely high rate, the structure of the family is changing in Africa for the better.
Wow. I’m sorry, but did we just fall through a time warp back into the 19th century while I was sleeping?
What’s interesting to me is that RR and Jeri seem to think that they are on opposite sides of the debate, but their commonalitiies are sometimes more shocking than they differences.
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Jeri,
You are the first person to accuse me of being an apologist for the underachievement of American blacks. Wow. I guess that makes me the Al Sharpton of Abagond’s blog:)
Again, I never claimed to be an expert on Africans. Nonetheless, certain facts become apparent when studying black Africa. And generalizations can be made. My contention is that African Americans share many behavioral characteristics with black Africans and with the non-American black Diaspora. The basis of our disagreement is our perceptions of African immigrants. You believe that African immigrants in America are representative of Africans generally. I believe African immigrants are not representative of typical black Africans and are only here largely due to their elite status in Africa. Links supporting my statement are listed below:
Click to access CPD2006_Owusu_Ankomah_Statement.pdf
Here is a choice quote from the speech. I realize the comment pertains to Ghana, but I’m guessing the statistics are probably similar for Nigeria:
“A study of the brain drain by the IMF estimated that by 1990, 15 percent of Ghanaians with tertiary education had migrated to USA and a further 10 percent to other OECD countries. In contrast, less than one percent of Ghanaians with secondary education were found to have moved to OECD countries. Other available data also corroborate the IMF findings by showing that over 70 percent of Ghanaian migrants in the US in 1990 had completed tertiary level and less than one per cent had only primary-level education or no education at all.”
http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/fandd/1999/06/carringt.htm
”Total immigration from South America and, especially, Africa is quite small. It is noteworthy, however, that immigrants from Africa consist primarily of highly educated individuals (about 95,000 of the 128,000 African migrants).”
Click to access adams.pdf
Table 4 from the document above shows that of the Nigerian immigrants who immigrated to the US in the year 2000, 83 % of them had college degrees BEFORE THEY ENTERED THE COUNTRY.
You note the higher level of achievement of African immigrants in the US as compared to African American achievement. This point is taken, although African achievement only proves that racism is not a serious impediment to black progress in America. You are preaching to the choir on this one. My point, which you seem incapable or unwilling to grasp, is that quality of life in black ruled environments is germane when comparing behavioral standards between black ethnic groups. Black Africans achieve in an environment created and maintained by whites. Black Africans achieve significantly less when left to their own devices (i.e. they achieve less in Africa). This is the crux of the matter. If it was a case of African Americans being anomalous in our low levels of achievement compared to other groups of blacks in their native environments, that would be a good thing. If this was the case we could say “Yes! It is our dysfunctional Afro-American culture that is keeping us back because blacks in Lagos and Kingston are doing great things. We need to emulate those hard working and industrious blacks in Africa and Jamaica because their countries are really shining pillars of productivity and efficiency”. I would love it if this were the case. It would be quite a relief. Unfortunately, this is hardly the case. You have stated that you have known some wonderful Africans. So have I. Our experiences though are quite irrelevant to the larger question of overall black (African, West Indian, American, UK etc.) achievement. Aggregate data matters. Averages matter. Anecdotes…not so much.
I compare the achievements of Africans immigrants to their native African brethren to demonstrate that African immigrants are a self-selected group which skews toward higher achieving black Africans. If the standard of living here in the US were to decline to that of Nigeria, those black Americans with the greatest resources (contacts, education, wealth, etc. i.e. elite American blacks) would be the most likely to immigrate to other countries. And yeah, this group of immigrant African-Americans would probably be quite formidable compared to the native population of the target country, although probably not as formidable as other immigrant groups (except Africans).
My goal is not to disparage Africans, immigrant Africans or African Americans. What I strive for is a realistic analysis of our situation. Pretending that African immigrants are something other than elite clouds the issue and prevents us from coming up with realistic solutions to our (American black) problems. It is easy enough to mouth platitudes about the power of positive thinking and exhorting our children to focus on education as Nigerians immigrants do. If it were that easy, American blacks would have done it a long time ago. We may have to face the possibility that we can’t do anything about racial achievement gaps. Maybe all we can do is to mitigate the worse effects of the gaps (i.e. limit immigration).
Natasha,
You are missing the point. Retiring Nigerian immigrants moving back to Nigeria after 30 years abroad would not impact the CURRENT net migration rate. Additionally, the most productive years of these self-selected Nigerians would have been spent abroad, consequently benefitting themselves and the countries to which they immigrated to the detriment of Nigeria. Your point is completely and utterly irrelevant.
Did you know that the population of Nigerian doctors residing in the US equals the total number of Nigerian doctors practicing in Nigeria (http://www.nigerdeltacongress.com/barticles/brain_drain_the_nigerian_experie.htm)? 21,000 doctors in a country of 157 million, with more than 21,000 (including Nigerians in the UK) doctors abroad. That ain’t good!
Thad,
Commonalites? Yes, you are right. Our commonalities as I perceive them are as follows:
1) We are both black Americans.
2) We believe that black Americans can achieve more.
3) We believe that feminism has been harmful to black Americans.
Do you have others? And can you make a point, assuming you have one?
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I agree with tulio. If Obama was as dark as Wesley Snipes, I doubt that he would have been elected because of white racism in America.
This site should do something about all the famous black men who marry a white woman. The list can go on and on.
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It is unbelieveable how some people attempt to speak for an entire race or gender.
I am white and I find skinny women unattractive. Who wants to date a skeleton?
According to Science men (all men regardless or race)
http://s1.zetaboards.com/anthroscape/topic/2983761/1
http://shymagazine.com/shy/2010/03/womens-bodies-make-men-high-literally.html
To all the women on the board, please don’t speak for us men. It is my belief that a man is a man and that he will be attracted to any attractive woman regardless of race or ethnicity.
Men love curvy women and some of the curvy women happen to be BBW.
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I agree, this chapter was a waste. I havent finished the rest and just stopped to give my commentary here and move on to other projects. So far its annoying that Fanon documents WOC’s relations with WM as self hate, yet the Black Man’s neurosis is due to being abandoned as a child, therefore we cannot apply his thoughts and actions to BM that are involved with WW.
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An unfair analysis. A follow up if Fanon would lead to a more fair summary. 1/5 stars.
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Reblogged this on other side of town .
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