Once upon a time in China there came a day that no one can talk about in public. It is not even in the history books.
In the centre of the capital there is a great square. They say it can hold a million people. It is across the street from a big red palace where the emperor used to live. No one lives there now. Above the palace gate is the reason why: a huge picture of Mao, the man who brought communism to China. His body lies at rest at the other end of the square.
The old men who ruled China in those days had fought with Mao. But now they forgot what they had fought for all those years ago. All they cared about now was their own power and wealth.
To stay in power they told the newspapers and television stations what to say. They held elections but only men who agreed with them could stand for office.
There were still some good men left. About two months before that day one of them died. His name is no longer written in the history books. About 200,000 came to the square for his funeral. Three of them got down on their knees on the steps in front of the government building asking the prime minister for change. The prime minister did not come out.
The funeral turned into protest. Students came to the square and would not leave. It lasted for weeks. The government would not bend. Even a hunger strike did not move it.
The students made a white statue of a lady holding a torch and stood her in front of the picture of Mao. They said she stood for liberty.
Support for the students spread among the people. Now the government was in danger of falling. It sent the army into the capital, but the people blocked its way.
The ruler of China was lying in a bed. He was very sick. He ordered the army to clear the streets and clear the square. Even if the streets had to run with blood: a million deaths would be a small price to pay.
And so when the night came the shooting began. It lasted all night long: the sound of the army killing its own people. Those who got in the way of the army tanks were shot down or crushed under its wheels along with their bicycles.
When the tanks got to the square they knocked down the statue of liberty. The people threw bricks and stones at the army, whatever they could, they set trucks on fire, they beat up and killed soldiers who got separated and took their guns. But the army kept shooting and shooting and shooting. Some students stood in front of the monument where the funeral had begun all those weeks before. They waited for their deaths.
By morning the square was cleared. The hospitals said at least 1400 died that night.
– Abagond, 2009.
See also:
Very informative and equally sad.
“Give me liberty or give me death..” P.H.
Thanks for a good read.
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It’s very sad to think that humans can be so cruel, because of material things, it’s insane! Tiananmen massacre should never be forgotten, it have been 20 years ago and yet people still not even free to praise God publicly.
May God bless them!
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Two days after the initial massacre, the parents of the students killed tried to find their children’s bodies in the square. They approached the perimeter of the square at least half a dozen times, attempting to bypass the guards. Each time, they heard orders that “in five seconds, we will open fire”. As they fled, some received bullets in their backs. Yet they kept persisting. Truly tragic that the Communist Party is still in charge of China. According to Frontline, many Chinese students today don’t even recognize the famous Tank Man image.
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I never dreamed back then that the communists would still rule China 20 years later. Back then not only was communism falling in Europe but so did white rule in South Africa. It seemed like all the bad guys were on their way out.
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It was so apt that you posted this exactly on the 20th anniversary!
This was before the time of the internet. Seeing these images, it is understandable why the “Great Fire Wall” was erected. Tens of thousands could easily become tens of millions.
And, hence the need to focus on historical enemies like Japan.
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Tomorrow is the 26th anniversary.
Those of us alive then remember it as though it were yesterday. I was living and working in New York City at the time.
The next day, 1 million people in HK took to the streets. Hong Kong is the only place where public recognition of the day can be held.
But what is happening now in Hong Kong. Those voices are being eaten up and covered over.
Just look at the this newsstand at the local 7-11 yesterday.
One paper, the Apple Daily, which often takes an anti-government stance, discusses what is going on.
All the other papers for sale carry the same message:
“Hong Kong must be stable,
Hong Kong must develop”
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xat1/v/t1.0-9/11140109_368597063348776_6055609786314651776_n.jpg?oh=8242454ed1a895a0e78b11cf1bd9bdf2&oe=55F7582D&__gda__=1442681586_08e17ecadb8544d7a7f8c3ec73f6eff3
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Where I am, the news of Muhammad Ali’s passing vied with the biggest news of the day – the 27th Anniversary of the June 4th crackdown in Tian An Men square in Beijing. Over 1.5 million people, up to almost 2 million, went to the streets in 1989 in protest over the incident. At that time, HK had only 5.5 million, so over 1/3 of the population went to the streets.
Every year since 1989, a vigil is held in Hong Kong commemorating the event, the only place in Chinese sovereign territory where such an event is tolerated.
However, this year, there is a major split in the support for the gathering. Many student groups and other groups of young people decided to boycott the commemoration events. Most of these groups are composed of people born after 1989, or who do not have any personal memory of it. Their argument is that it is pointless to strive for any democratic movement in China as any such movement is repeated squelched in Hong Kong. They advocate to forget about China, and move towards greater autonomy in HK, even independence. This is one of the major outcomes of the 2014 Umbrella movement protests.
Many pundits postulate that the PRC “welcomes” this development as it is a form of “divide and conquer” the opposition.
Still, over 125,000 attended the vigil last night, a good turnout despite the rain and thunderstorms as well as the boycott.
Organisers say 125,000 attended Victoria Park Tiananmen vigil, despite boycott
(https://www.hongkongfp.com/2016/06/05/organisers-say-125000-attended-victoria-park-tiananmen-vigil-despite-boycott/)
A very scandalous yet vivid reminder spreading around social media now is about Chief Executive CY Leung’s strong denunciation of the TianAnMen crackdown in 1989 (with videos of his speeches from that time), contrasted with his more recent behaviour of squelching democratic development in HK and his unerring kowtowing to Beijing.
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Attended the entire candlelight vigil in Hong Kong marking the 28th anniversary of 4 June 1989.This is the first time I attended the entire event.
This year is significant as Xi Jin Ping will be coming to HK to appear for the 20th anniversary of the HK SAR. Turnout was lower than in prior years.
At the end of the vigil, I got to have a conversation with Mr. Lee Cheuk Yan, former lawmaker who has been the principal organizer of the candlelight vigil since 1990.
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Today in Hong Kong, an estimated 115,000 attended the Candlelight vigil in Victoria Park commemorating the 29th anniversary of the incident, up slightly from last year. This is the only place on Chinese soil where any kind of event is allowed on this day.
Crowds gather for Hong Kong Tiananmen vigil
https://www.afp.com/en/news/205/crowds-gather-hong-kong-tiananmen-vigil-doc-15l8ak1
But Secretary of State Pompeo demanded full accountability for the incident.
U.S. urges China to account for the ‘ghosts’ of Tiananmen
https://af.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idAFKCN1J00AE
China wishes it could simply sweep it under the carpet. Many people in China under age 30 have never even heard of it. Even in HK, new history textbooks have just been approved by the Bureau of Education which specifically exclude any mention in the sections on Hong Kong history of either the June 4, 1989 TianAnMen incident nor the local Hong Kong 1967 riots, the two events which rocked the city the most in recent living history. The government is just hoping that the people will forget about it. It is clear where the Hong Kong Bureau of Education takes its cues from.
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re: Abagond
And now, 29 years after that event, we have a dictator who declared himself emperor for life and a country dead set on overturning the US’s lead on world politics and affairs. They must be singing praises that the American people elected a leader who is keen on making that dream come true even sooner than hoped.
Still, the PRC’s global hegemony (not to mention regional hegemony) is by no means guaranteed. But it requires the rest of the world to call a spade a spade.
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@ jefe
Whether the Russians got Trump elected or not, it is a huge windfall for them and the Chinese. It could also turn out to be a windfall for North Korea and Iran, but they are small enough that I fear for their safety.
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I hope that Abagond would consider doing an update 30th anniversary post about this event.
Hong Kong is the only place under PRC control that is “allowed” to hold any event to commemorate this event. And even it is heavily controlled. Now there is a whole black list of people not allowed to even enter HK at this time period.
This year it is confounded with the fugitive extradition law being rammed through Hong Kong’s Legislative Council, a law that the US government and some overseas pundits opine will actually put US citizens at risk.
This year is a key anniversary year.
100th anniversary of the May 4th movement.
70th anniversary of Communist “Liberation”
30th anniversary of “That Day”
20th anniversary of the FaLunGong crackdown
I was curiously in Beijing in July 1999 attended a company training program on the very day that that the crackdown took place only a couple miles away from where I was. This was one of my first opportunities to experience first hand the dichotomy between the way an event was covered by local media and by overseas media. At the Beijing airport when i was leaving about 36 hrs. later, all the newsstands selling foreign newspapers had the front page and articles inside discussing this event cut out with scissors. I didn’t even find about what actually happened until I returned to Hong Kong.
The new Fugitive Extradition law could theoretically make reporting about events in Mainland China in any manner not towing the official party line a crime to be tried in a Mainland court (where you are guilty until “proven” guilty via confession). There would be nothing stopping a journalist or blogger to be nabbed in HK and waking up in a Mainland jail.
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Amazing to see this ATV News (Hong Kong based English Language channel) broadcast from June 5, 1989.
1989-06-05 E – ATV 2000 News Tiananmen Square Massacre
(https://youtu.be/iAdJJZbiLkM)
The next day in 1989, one million people went to march in the streets in Hong Kong.
I was in New York at the time, so I could only see on television.
The candlelight vigil last night for the 30th anniversary was only 10 mins walk from me, so I had to go. 180,000 attended, matching the gathering for 25th anniversary in 2014.
https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/06/05/video-fight-end-hongkongers-remember-tiananmen-massacre-30-years/
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@ jefe
I am glad you were able to go!
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Ding dong, the butcher’s dead!
Li Peng, hardline Chinese leader in Tiananmen crackdown, dies at 90
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-lipeng/li-peng-hardline-chinese-leader-in-tiananmen-crackdown-dies-at-90-idUSKCN1UI19Y
30 years later, will we see something similar in Hong Kong? Streets here are too narrow to fit tanks.
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Under cloak of Covid-19, the Candlelight vigil commemorating the Tiananmen massacre has been banned.
This is the first time this event has been banned in 30 years. Organizers claim that it could still be held under social distancing rules, but the government said no.
Hong Kong’s Tiananmen vigil has been banned, but the city’s spirit of commemoration for June 4th shines on
https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3087246/hong-kongs-tiananmen-vigil-has-been-banned-citys-spirit
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@Abagond,
The photo at the top of the article disappeared. What happened?
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Now the mere mention of TianAnMen is banned in Macau.
How does this forebode for Hong Kong?
Something is wrong when Macau bars mention of Tiananmen Square massacre
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@ jefe
I do not remember putting a picture at top. Of course, ever since the night Trump was nominated I have felt like I have been living in an alternate universe.
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” on Thu Jun 4th 2020 at 06:01:39
jefe
Now the mere mention of TianAnMen is banned in Macau.
How does this forebode for Hong Kong?
Something is wrong when Macau bars mention of Tiananmen Square massacre
https://hongkongfp.com/2020/06/04/something-is-wrong-when-macau-bars-mention-of-tiananmen-square-massacre/”
Let me help you with that. They are too busy making money to bother with stuff like that.
“Just when you thought it was safe to store away the superlatives to describe its meteoric rise to the top of world gaming, Macau is set to outdo itself by becoming the richest place on the planet.
Fresh data from the International Monetary Fund (IMF) predicted that by 2020, the city would overtake oil-rich Qatar with the highest per-capita gross domestic product of any country or jurisdiction on earth.
The IMF’s World Economic Outlook Update – published at the end of last month – expected continuing economic growth in the casino hub would see it leapfrog Qatar by 2020.
This year the IMF ranked Macau, with a US$122,489 per capita GDP, second behind Qatar, for which it said the equivalent figure was US$128,702. Singapore was ranked fourth with US$98,014, just behind Luxembourg with US$110,870 while Hong Kong took 10th place with a per capita GDP of US$64,533.” (https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/hong-kong-economy/article/2158708/macau-poised-become-richest-place-planet-2020)
The CCP has ruined the SARs, under your ‘wise’ leadership Macao would have achieved that status 20 years ago! 😉
As an ‘expert’ on HK, Black-Chinese relationships, democracy, etc. how come you don’t do a guess post on Percy Chen, founder of the HK bar association in 1948 and the guy who proposed the following: “…In 1949, he and some other pro-Communist intellectuals and professionals including Mok Ying-kwai and Wong San-yin founded the Hong Kong Chinese Reform Association (HKCRA) in response to the Young Plan proposed constitutional reform suggested by the then Governor Mark Aitchison Young.
The association demanded that all unofficial members of the proposed municipal council should be elected and the appointment system should be dropped.[5] In a meeting on 13 July 1949 attended by about 400 delegates from 142 registered Chinese civic organisations, the association and the Chinese Manufacturers’ Association of Hong Kong and also two Kowloon-based commercial bodies culminated signatures of 142 organisations which presented membership of 141,800 people from the business, industry, labour and education sectors in the Chinese community.[6] ”
Being an inveterate liar, you can’t deal with such complexities, so, down the memory hole they go. If Chen and his friends had succeeded, HK-SAR residents would have had the right to vote 71 years ago thanks to a quarter Black Chinese!
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Despite being banned by the HK government, informal candlelight vigils were held in several districts around town, including Victoria Park. People entered the park in maximum groups of 8 as limited by current social distancing rules. Police circled the perimeter of the park, but did not enter while people held candles.
Victoria Park was peaceful, but police cleared the streets soon afterwards in Mongkok on Kowloon.
Thousands of Hongkongers defy police ban to commemorate Tiananmen Massacre victims at Victoria Park
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“Victoria Park was peaceful, but police cleared the streets soon afterwards in Mongkok on Kowloon.”
Good to know. As long as they don’t riot their right to protest is respected, as it has been for decades. What kind of ‘police state’ is this?
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Trump in 1990:
Source:
(https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-fascist-reelection-authoritarianism_n_5ed816e5c5b6c0b2f10e5775)
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“to bother with stuff like that”
Stuff like that = the brutal massacre of over a thousand people.
Imagine if the US government banned any mention of Rosewood, Black Wall St., Wounded Knee.
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““to bother with stuff like that”
Stuff like that = the brutal massacre of over a thousand people.
Imagine if the US government banned any mention of Rosewood, Black Wall St., Wounded Knee.”
The US government learned long ago that people prefer not to think about such things as long as they aren’t starving and have lots of divertisements. The PRC learned that lesson, hence their “kid glove” attitude toward Tienanmen Square commemorations for three decades. Trump seems eager to throw away such wisdom.
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Unfortunately for Trump, the Chinese are showing the same strength in dealing with his threats to their economic advancement.
Abagond, have you picked your death shroud to confront Trump’s coup d’etat scheduled for the November elections? That park clearance thing was a rehearsal for that performance.
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@ Gro Jo
“The US government learned long ago that people prefer not to think about such things as long as they aren’t starving and have lots of divertisements.”
People? Or white people?
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People.
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@ Gro Jo
Then how do you explain those people who aren’t starving and have diversions available to them and yet still remember — and still commemorate?
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A minority for all races and creeds. Troublemakers with too much free time and a high regard for their intellects. Perfectly useless most of the time, but, from time to time, they come up with something useful.
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@ Gro Jo
You periodically bring up the wrongs Napoleon committed against Haiti over 200 years ago. You haven’t forgotten.
Does that make you a fellow troublemaker? Do you not have enough channels on cable TV to divert you?
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Solitaire, if you want to get something off your chest, just do it. Your passive/aggressive routine is getting old.
“You periodically bring up the wrongs Napoleon committed against Haiti over 200 years ago. You haven’t forgotten.”
Wrong. I bring him up not out of an idle desire to remember, but to point out that his attitude is still alive and well. Haiti exists because he wasn’t able to live with the thought of Blacks claiming the same rights he claimed for himself. His crimes were against the people of St-Domingue, not Haiti. Haiti is the result of the free people of St-Domingue sending his army packing.
“Does that make you a fellow troublemaker” What do you think? I’ve done my best to counter the lies of a number of people on this blog and proudly accept the “troll” label pinned on me by jefe, Origin and other bs artists.
“Do you not have enough channels on cable TV to divert you?”
Do you?
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@ Gro Jo
What do you think it is I have to get off my chest? Do you think I want to call you a liar, like you do those who disagree with you? No.
I thought I was speaking plainly enough. I thought I was trying to figure out your thought processes and beliefs, not being passive-aggressive — and that I was doing so in an attempt to make sure I wasn’t misunderstanding you before “getting anything off my chest.”
But fine, you want plainer speech. Here goes:
It disturbs me that you attempt to brush off a massacre as “stuff.”
It disturbs me that when I bring up the people who remember and commemorate the massacre at Wounded Knee, you characterize them as “troublemakers” with “an idle desire to remember” instead of acknowledging that they do so because they have never been adequately recompensed for the suffering and death of their relations.
It disturbs me that in many instances (and not only concerning China), you take a very cynical and callous view of human rights versus the acquisition of money and power.
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Ok. Now don’t you feel a lot better instead of beating around the bush? We are back to your feelings again. Anybody who isn’t cynical and callous about ‘human rights’ just isn’t paying attention to what’s going on in the world. You have my sympathy, for all the good it will do you or anybody else. Every crime committed by the champions of human rights was done in the name of protecting the human rights of their victims.
Was it really that long ago that the people of Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, etc. were ‘freed’ from their ‘dictators’ in the name of ‘human rights’? In my book, they were better off under their dictators.
“It disturbs me that in many instances (and not only concerning China), you take a very cynical and callous view of human rights versus the acquisition of money and power.”
The overwhelming number of people liberated by human rights champions would prefer their higher living standards under their dictators over the chaos of human rights regimes.
Do you want me to pretend that the standard of living in HK and Macao aren’t among the highest in the world? I should repeat the lies told by our HK independentista?
“What do you think it is I have to get off my chest? Do you think I want to call you a liar, like you do those who disagree with you? No.”
Oh, come on, admit it, you would love to but you can’t because my facts are solid, not mere prejudices masquerading as facts.
“It disturbs me that you attempt to brush off a massacre as “stuff.””
Why are you more ‘disturbed’ by my ‘attempt’ to brush off a massacre as “stuff” when you don’t seem all that ‘disturbed’ by the massacres caused by US interventions?
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Police did not storm the Victoria Park nonofficial candlelight vigils last night, but they did indeed forcibly remove them last night in Mong Kok on Kowloon and scuffles broke out and police used pepper spray.
No peaceful activity in HK that involves protest stays peaceful long if the police show up.
Hong Kong: Tens of thousands defy ban to attend Tiananmen vigil
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-52920083
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@ Gro Jo
“Now don’t you feel a lot better instead of beating around the bush?”
No.
“Anybody who isn’t cynical and callous about ‘human rights’ just isn’t paying attention to what’s going on in the world.”
I can agree with that statement, but you take it further. You don’t seem to place much value on human rights, and you regularly scoff at oppressed people who are agitating for their rights.
“Every crime committed by the champions of human rights was done in the name of protecting the human rights of their victims.”
What are you talking about here? Who are “the champions of human rights”? Are you talking only about US military intervention?
“Was it really that long ago that the people of Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, etc. were ‘freed’ from their ‘dictators’ in the name of ‘human rights’? In my book, they were better off under their dictators.”
I didn’t agree with the wars at the beginning, I still don’t agree with them, the US government blatantly used “human rights” as an excuse to invade, and that’s not what we were talking about. We were discussing whether it’s okay for a government to ban all mention of a massacre that same government committed.
“The overwhelming number of people liberated by human rights champions would prefer their higher living standards under their dictators over the chaos of human rights regimes.”
Again, are you only talking about outside intervention? Because I’m not. And what are “human rights regimes”? Why do you say “human rights regimes” are chaotic? Do dictators always provide higher living standards to their people?
I’m not sure whether you’re a US citizen, but if you are — or even theoretically, if you were — which of your constitutional rights would you be willing to give up, and for how much money?
“Do you want me to pretend that the standard of living in HK and Macao aren’t among the highest in the world?”
Of course not. But you’re measuring standard of living by wealth alone.
“Oh, come on, admit it, you would love to but you can’t because my facts are solid, not mere prejudices masquerading as facts.”
If I wanted to call you a liar, I would have done so by now. I would do it the way you do, calling people liars for differing from your opinions or having a different interpretation of historical events. How often have I called anyone here a liar? The only time I remember was Nomad and that wasn’t about his beliefs or his opinions.
“Why are you more ‘disturbed’ by my ‘attempt’ to brush off a massacre as “stuff” when you don’t seem all that ‘disturbed’ by the massacres caused by US interventions?”
Where on earth do you get the idea that I’m not disturbed by them?
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“If I wanted to call you a liar, I would have done so by now. I would do it the way you do, calling people liars for differing from your opinions or having a different interpretation of historical events. How often have I called anyone here a liar? The only time I remember was Nomad and that wasn’t about his beliefs or his opinions.”
Nonsense. I’ve never called you a liar and we seldom see eye to eye on anything. Liars are people who make up stuff because they want to score points. You corrected jefe when he lied about why the WHO called COVID-19 by that name instead of calling it the Wuhan virus or some such nonsense. I praised you for your honesty. I can’t do that in this exchange because you’re having a serious case of convenient recollection.
The rest of your comments about ” Who are “the champions of human rights”…Do dictators always provide higher living standards to their people?”, aren’t real questions because I made it perfectly clear who I was referring to. Who raped Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, etc.? Where the ‘liberated’ people of these nations not saddled with US approved “human rights” regimes? Did they not suffer massive drops in their living standards? The people of HK and Macao experienced massive improvements in their living standards. Make of these facts what you will.
“I’m not sure whether you’re a US citizen, but if you are — or even theoretically, if you were — which of your constitutional rights would you be willing to give up, and for how much money?”
What a joke. Go ask the families of Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor and George Floyd that question.
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Correction: “Where the ‘liberated’ people of these nations not saddled with US approved “human rights” regimes? Did they not suffer massive drops in their living standards?”
should be “Were the ‘liberated’ people of these nations not saddled with US approved “human rights” regimes? Did they not suffer massive drops in their living standards?”
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@ Gro Jo
“Liars are people who make up stuff because they want to score points. You corrected jefe when he lied about why the WHO called COVID-19 by that name instead of calling it the Wuhan virus or some such nonsense.”
Well, that’s yet another example where we don’t see eye to eye. I don’t think Jefe was making it up to score points or purposely lying. I think he was repeating something that many people believe who didn’t take the time to research WHO’s recent policy on naming. And I think there’s validity to some of the points he made about the naming process.
“The rest of your comments about ” Who are “the champions of human rights”…Do dictators always provide higher living standards to their people?”, aren’t real questions because I made it perfectly clear who I was referring to. Who raped Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, etc.? Were the ‘liberated’ people of these nations not saddled with US approved “human rights” regimes? Did they not suffer massive drops in their living standards? The people of HK and Macao experienced massive improvements in their living standards. Make of these facts what you will.”
What you are missing — and what you have consistently missed in our previous discussions along these lines — is I’m not advocating US intervention and I’m not claiming US intervention has led to any improvement in human rights.
I don’t care what type of regimes the US claims to have installed in Iraq, Afghanistan, or Libya; as far as I can tell, those nations are still under dictatorships and/or authoritarian rule with little in the way of human rights, and with minority groups who are being actively persecuted and oppressed.
Yes, HK and Macao are making money hand over fist. Do they prove some sort of rule? Did the people of Chile have a better standard of living under Pinochet? Are the people of North Korea flourishing under the Kim dynasty?
“What a joke. Go ask the families of Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor and George Floyd that question.”
Point taken. But am I remembering correctly that you are an atheist?
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“It disturbs me that in many instances (and not only concerning China), you take a very cynical and callous view of human rights versus the acquisition of money and power.”
“Might makes right” to gro jo. He revels in the crushing of ordinary people by the powerful. He presents himself as a contrarian, but he is simply amoral.
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“Well, that’s yet another example where we don’t see eye to eye. I don’t think Jefe was making it up to score points or purposely lying. I think he was repeating something that many people believe who didn’t take the time to research WHO’s recent policy on naming. And I think there’s validity to some of the points he made about the naming process.”
Right. You’re a mind reader, bravo! I’m not, I just call them the way I see them. jefe wasn’t lying when he wrote that HK could be water independent of the PRC?
“What you are missing — and what you have consistently missed in our previous discussions along these lines — is I’m not advocating US intervention and I’m not claiming US intervention has led to any improvement in human rights”
What you refuse to accept is that I don’t give a damn about your views on US interventions. I’m claiming that the ‘human rights’ racket provides the camouflage for US intervention.
“Yes, HK and Macao are making money hand over fist. Do they prove some sort of rule?”
I never claimed to ‘prove’ some sort of rule. I only pointed out the complicity of the ‘human rights’ racket in the destruction of several nations and the immiseration of their peoples. Being amoral, I leave the big moral principals to people like you and revel in pointing out the absurdities of their claims.
““Might makes right” to gro jo. He revels in the crushing of ordinary people by the powerful. He presents himself as a contrarian, but he is simply amoral.”
You don’t say? Wouldn’t that make me immoral instead of amoral?
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@ Gro Jo
“You’re a mind reader, bravo!”
No, I’m making an inference based on not just what Jefe said but how he said it. He didn’t sound like someone who was knowingly and blatantly lying but someone who had a different perspective and opinion. I could of course be wrong. But this is what people do in conversations. Everyone constantly evaluates and reevaluates based on their interpretation of certain cues. You do it, too. You’ve misread and misunderstood me before, and I don’t remember ever responding by snarkily accusing you of being a mind reader.
“I’m not, I just call them the way I see them.”
Nope, you’re also “mind reading” just as you claim I am. You believe he was intentionally lying; therefore you are “reading his mind” to know his intent. It’s either that or I’m also calling it the way I see it, just like you.
“jefe wasn’t lying when he wrote that HK could be water independent of the PRC?”
I am so f’n sick of that dead horse, and I have no intention of beating it. As far as I can tell, the only way to truly test which of you is right would be for HK to make the attempt and see what happens. I don’t think either of you is lying, just strongly opinionated. And concerning whether HK could really pull it off or not, IDGAF.
“I’m claiming that the ‘human rights’ racket provides the camouflage for US intervention.”
Am I arguing against that? No! Of course the US has been using “human rights” as an excuse for intervention, just like “fighting communism” or “making the world free from democracy.” Where have I ever once argued otherwise? Where have I ever once said it’s a good thing for the US to invade or bomb the hell out of other countries?
Unless you mean something specific by “human rights racket”? Are you saying that every single struggle for human rights anywhere is somehow a camouflage for US intervention?
Also, I noticed you ignored my question about atheism. Not willing to discuss the price tag for the right to freedom from a state religion?
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No I refer to your opinions as amoral because they are not concerned with accepted notions of right and wrong. The ends justify the means.
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“I am so f’n sick of that dead horse, and I have no intention of beating it. As far as I can tell, the only way to truly test which of you is right would be for HK to make the attempt and see what happens.”
No need for you to do so. I urge you to read about the severe water shortage in HK and the deal made between the British and the PRC to supply water to the territory. If you come away believing that jefe isn’t a liar, I have nothing else to say to you on that subject.
Wikipedia on water supply and Sanitation in Hong Kong, 1st paragraph, says:”Water supply and sanitation in Hong Kong is characterized by water import, reservoirs and treatment infrastructure. Though multiple measures were made throughout its history, providing an adequate water supply for Hong Kong has met with numerous challenges because the region has few natural lakes and rivers, inadequate groundwater sources (inaccessible in most cases due to the hard granite bedrock found in most areas in the territory), a high population density, and extreme seasonable variations in rainfall. Thus nearly 80 percent of water demand is met by importing water from mainland China, based on a longstanding contract.[1] In addition, freshwater demand is curtailed by the use of seawater for toilet flushing, using a separate distribution system.[2] Hong Kong also utilize the usage of reservoirs and water treatment plants to maintain its source of clean water through times”
The main source of water is from the PRC. jefe, being a HK resident, knows that. ” In 1960 Hong Kong began importing water from outside its borders through the Dongjiang – Shenzhen (Dongshen) Water Supply Scheme. After many extensions and upgrades the current system consists of a pipeline from Qiaotou Town of Dongguan to a reservoir in Shenzhen next to Hong Kong. Water imports from the Pearl River have increased gradually from 23 million cubic meters per year (under a 1960 agreement) to 1100 million cubic meters per year (under a fifth agreement signed in 1989). Water imports thus played a crucial role in alleviating Hong Kong’s water crisis, accounting for 70 percent of the territory’s water supply in 1991. The People’s Republic of China has never exercised the “water weapon” in its relationship with Hong Kong. China needed foreign exchange and between 1979 and 1991 alone Hong Kong paid China almost 4 billion Hong Kong Dollars (about US$500 million applying the 1991 exchange rate) for water imports.[3]…Until 1964 water rationing – the act of limiting water usage for each households by water providers – was a constant reality for Hong Kong residents, occurring more than 300 days per year. The worst crisis occurred in 1963–64 when water was delivered only every 4 days for 4 hours each time. The territory, which was under British colonial administration, then embarked on a three-pronged approach to supply water to an increasing population. (Hong Kong’s population increased from 1.7 million in 1945 to about 6 million in 1992.) The strategy involved seawater flushing, the construction of larger freshwater reservoirs in bays that used to be covered by the sea, and water imports from mainland China.”
You could have found this information on your own, but people who fall under jefe’s spell end up repeating his lies or pretending, as you do here, that the truth is hard to ascertain. Nonsense.
I’ve written in another thread on HK, that the PRC, if it intended, could have brought HK to its knees just by closing the water tap. Since I don’t buy the simple minded anti-communist nonsense on this blog, you and others have seen fit to question my ‘morality’.
Instead of trying to understand what’s going on in the PRC, inane lies are accepted at face value and arbitrary judgements made based on these lies.
“Also, I noticed you ignored my question about atheism. Not willing to discuss the price tag for the right to freedom from a state religion?”
Does China have a ‘state religion’? No.
I don’t see what my lack of religion has to do with anything, please explain?
I noticed you had nothing to say about Percy Chen and his fight for HK voting rights 71 years ago, why is that? A lot of nonsense was written about the deep seated racism of the Chinese and yet nobody has anything to say about Eugene Chen, foreign minister of China in the 1920’s, being married to a woman whose Black ancestry was apparent to all. The same held true for her son Percy, yet they were accepted among the Chinese elite in an age when they couldn’t drink from a water fountain in the crappiest town in the USA.
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@gro jo
‘China being racist’ doesn’t mean ‘China being post-slavery’, hence Chen’s spouse and her son Percy were accepted among the Chinese elite.
Racism is not always an evil. Slavery and post-slavery, are.
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“No I refer to your opinions as amoral because they are not concerned with accepted notions of right and wrong. The ends justify the means”
The ends have and always will justify the means. You want chicken for dinner, you or somebody acting on your behalf must kill the chicken, the fact that you get your chicken from a supermarket doesn’t change that reality.
““Might makes right” to gro jo. He revels in the crushing of ordinary people by the powerful.” In my book that would make me or anybody else immoral. That claim is a lie.
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“@gro jo
‘China being racist’ doesn’t mean ‘China being post-slavery’, hence Chen’s spouse and her son Percy were accepted among the Chinese elite.
Racism is not always an evil. Slavery and post-slavery, are.”
What on earth are you talking about? Do you mean “pro-slavery” instead of “post-slavery”? If the Chinese are as racist as you imply, why did Eugene Chen marry and have children with a woman who was black? Why do communities exist through out the world of people claiming both Black and Chinese ancestry? In my book the Chinese aren’t anymore racist than your fellow Russians, who, in turn, aren’t anymore or less racist than anybody else on earth.
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@ Gro Jo
I read the first few exchanges between you and Jefe about the water supply issue with moderate interest. But since then it has become a bloated, rotting, stinking horse carcass that gets moved from thread to thread to thread instead of being decently buried. If I never, ever, read one word about HK’s water supply ever again, it still will not get the stench of decaying dead horse out of my nostrils.
“I have nothing else to say to you on that subject.”
Promise?
“You could have found this information on your own”
You have only yourself to blame for my aversion to the topic of HK’s water supply, as it is your dead horse that you keep beating, including in threads where (unlike this one) it is entirely off-topic.
“Since I don’t buy the simple minded anti-communist nonsense on this blog, you and others have seen fit to question my ‘morality’.”
Please don’t confuse me with Afrofem. And I’ve told you before, I’m not anti-communist. I believe communism can work without requiring a dictatorial or authoritarian government.
“Does China have a ‘state religion’? No.
I don’t see what my lack of religion has to do with anything, please explain?”
I wasn’t talking about China; I was talking about how you seem to place monetary wealth over human rights. I asked you upthread which of your constitutional rights would you be willing to give up for how much money, and then later I narrowed it down to just one, freedom of religion.
What is it worth to not only be able to freely say that you lack religion, but to not have to pretend to be a devout adherent of a state religion? To not have to take part conspicuously in religious devotions and ceremonies in order to keep any suspicion from falling on you? To not fear that if your true beliefs ever came to light, you would face imprisonment, torture, and execution as a heretic?
“I noticed you had nothing to say about Percy Chen and his fight for HK voting rights 71 years ago, why is that? A lot of nonsense was written about the deep seated racism of the Chinese and yet nobody has anything to say about Eugene Chen, foreign minister of China in the 1920’s, being married to a woman whose Black ancestry was apparent to all. The same held true for her son Percy, yet they were accepted among the Chinese elite in an age when they couldn’t drink from a water fountain in the crappiest town in the USA.”
Because one example doesn’t prove anything. Obama was elected president twice; did racism magically disappear?
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“I read the first few exchanges between you and Jefe about the water supply issue with moderate interest. But since then it has become a bloated, rotting, stinking horse carcass that gets moved from thread to thread to thread instead of being decently buried. If I never, ever, read one word about HK’s water supply ever again, it still will not get the stench of decaying dead horse out of my nostrils.”
Not being a country type, I’ve no idea what you’re on about. What does a dead horse smell like and how on earth did simple facts about HK’s water supply get associated with it your head?
“You have only yourself to blame for my aversion to the topic of HK’s water supply, as it is your dead horse that you keep beating, including in threads where (unlike this one) it is entirely off-topic.”
You don’t say? Mind you, I don’t write specifically for you. I beat that horse because it ‘aint dead. It proves to anyone but you and the jefe claque that your jefe is an f’n liar.
“Please don’t confuse me with Afrofem. And I’ve told you before, I’m not anti-communist. I believe communism can work without requiring a dictatorial or authoritarian government.”
Ok, whatever.
“I wasn’t talking about China; I was talking about how you seem to place monetary wealth over human rights. I asked you upthread which of your constitutional rights would you be willing to give up for how much money, and then later I narrowed it down to just one, freedom of religion.”
The last time I spoke to a priest, he was more concerned about my challenging his right to make a living than he was about the tenets of his religion. Some of the most sincere atheists are people like that fellow.
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@Gro Jo
“Not being a country type, I’ve no idea what you’re on about.”
And that smells like cow pies (BS).
“It proves to anyone but you and the jefe claque that your jefe is an f’n liar.”
Fine. Throw me a link to the original debate and I’ll look at it again. This once.
“Ok, whatever.”
How erudite. Was that a refusal to respond or a complete dismissal of what I said?
“The last time I spoke to a priest, he was more concerned about my challenging his right to make a living than he was about the tenets of his religion. Some of the most sincere atheists are people like that fellow.”
Doesn’t in any way answer my question to you.
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“Because one example doesn’t prove anything. Obama was elected president twice; did racism magically disappear?”
That wasn’t your attitude when you heard of Africans being discriminated against in Shenzhen. You and others intimated that it was official PRC policy. You dismiss the fact that this Chinese man of African ancestry fought to bring voting rights to HK 71 years ago and yet, you are a fan of those who wanted to do the same last year, what gives?
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“Fine. Throw me a link to the original debate and I’ll look at it again. This once.”
Better yet, do a google search on the topic.
“How erudite. Was that a refusal to respond or a complete dismissal of what I said?”
A complete dismissal. Everybody is entitled to their opinions.
“Doesn’t in any way answer my question to you.”
True.
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@ Gro Jo
“That wasn’t your attitude when you heard of Africans being discriminated against in Shenzhen.”
Because discrimination against black people in China is nothing new:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/654951?seq=1
https://africasacountry.com/2020/05/a-brief-history-of-anti-black-violence-in-china
Better yet, do a google search on the topic.
“How erudite. Was that a refusal to respond or a complete dismissal of what I said?”
A complete dismissal. Everybody is entitled to their opinions.
“Doesn’t in any way answer my question to you.”
True.
Okay, then. If you’re through with taking me seriously, I’m not real inclined to spend any time reading up on that dead horse of yours.
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“Because discrimination against black people in China is nothing new:…”
Right, cooperation and trade between black people and China is?
“Relations between Somalia and China long predate the Middle Ages. Through trade, the peoples of both areas established good relations. Giraffes, zebras and incense were exported to the Ming Empire of China, which established Somali merchants as leaders in the commerce between Asia and Africa,[2] and in the process influenced the Chinese language with the Somali language and vice versa. The Chinese exported celadon wares, spices and muskets in return for horses, exotic animals and ivory. The prominent Hui-Chinese explorer, mariner, diplomat and fleet admiral, Zheng He, arrived in his fourth and fifth voyage to the Somali cities of Mogadishu, Zeila, Merca and Berbera.[3] Sa’id of Mogadishu a Somali explorer travelled to China in the 14th century, when China was ruled by the Yuan Dynasty, and noted the trading communities of the Chinese ports and cities.”
14th century, 7 centuries ago Sa’id of Mogadishu was doing business in China. I’m sure that even back then some Chinese objected to his entertaining Chinese women. A..holes existed then, now and the future. No evidence that the Yuan Dynasty, anymore than the PRC, discriminated based on skin color. If you have evidence to the contrary, I’m all ears.
“Okay, then. If you’re through with taking me seriously, I’m not real inclined to spend any time reading up on that dead horse of yours.” I never took you seriously because you showed zero interest in the truth. If you did, it would have taken you seconds to unmask you buddy jefe for the liar he is. What you spend your time on is not my concern.
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@gro jo
i am talking about racism as a believe in specific non-physical qualities of a human being caused by person’s racial type, which does not necessarily imply negative or positive discrimination. We can definately mark at least racially typical differences in biology here. It’s a sort of ‘a good racism’ which is e. g. when many Chinese believe in some specific qualities of ‘White barbarians’ who are ‘better’ than ‘fellow Asian barbarians’. Some Whites also believe in specific qualities of Asians caused by their racial types rather than by their personal qualities.
Having lived in China for a while myself I can say that this is not always a negative thing, to be trated like an alien from a space or as an elvian creature.
This differs from post-slavery attitude, which is a deeply — or maybe not so deeply — hidden and barely articulated belief that some races are inferior to others. That is what a post-slavery is, for we can observe it usually in countries with some forms of slavery in their XIX century. Sometimes pos-slavery interlaps with racism, as it is the case in the USA, and sometimes it is not about the race — as it is in Russia, but it is the same post-slavery belief that some people are ‘less human’ than the others just because they are belong to a specific group.
The Chinese culture is ethnocentric and is becoming a sort of a racist culture, too, but it is a ‘positive discrimination’ for non-Asian races — including Blacks — rather than negative post-slavery discrimination. [I wouldn’t call it ‘pro-slavery’ because even in such cuntries slavery is hardly ever, if ever at all, openly advocated].
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Ok, I see where you’re coming from. Thank you.
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@ Gro Jo
“14th century, 7 centuries ago Sa’id of Mogadishu was doing business in China.”
So? Jews did business all over Europe and the Middle East during the same time period. Didn’t keep them from being discriminated against. A willingness to conduct trade with certain partners does not in and of itself prove a lack of prejudice back then, much less now.
“I never took you seriously because you showed zero interest in the truth. If you did, it would have taken you seconds to unmask you buddy jefe for the liar he is. What you spend your time on is not my concern.”
Please look at the part of your previous comment that I quoted right before I said you’d stopped taking me seriously. I was not only referring to the water issue but to your evasion of my question to you about religious freedom and your flippant dismissal of my comments about communism.
Why would you assume, when I asked you to throw me the link to the original thread, that I wouldn’t also google the issue? I would have thought you knew me better than that by now. I asked for it as a starting point, to refresh my memory about the details of the argument. Have you forgotten what thread it’s on?
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“So? Jews did business all over Europe and the Middle East during the same time period. Didn’t keep them from being discriminated against. A willingness to conduct trade with certain partners does not in and of itself prove a lack of prejudice back then, much less now.”
According to you, prejudice runs in only one direction?
If you weren’t hellbent on quoting only the parts of my arguments you find convenient to pursue your agenda, you would have noticed that I took that contingency into account in the paragraph you bowdlerized.
“14th century, 7 centuries ago Sa’id of Mogadishu was doing business in China. I’M SURE THAT EVEN BACK THEN SOME CHINESE OBJECTED TO HIS ENTERTAINING CHINESE WOMEN. A..HOLES EXISTED THEN, NOW AND THE FUTURE. No evidence that the Yuan Dynasty, anymore than the PRC, discriminated based on skin color. If you have evidence to the contrary, I’m all ears.”
Sooner or later, jefe’s friends get jefe-itis i.e. the propensity to lie. It’s a lie that you need “… a starting point, to refresh my memory about the details of the argument. Have you forgotten what thread it’s on?”
This is a lie because, you only needed to scroll up to my comment above (on Mon Jun 8th 2020 at 00:02:37 gro jo) to find the information you want.
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@ Gro Jo
“Nonsense. I’ve never called you a liar”
Didn’t take you long to start, though, did it?
“This is a lie because, you only needed to scroll up to my comment above (on Mon Jun 8th 2020 at 00:02:37 gro jo) to find the information you want.”
It’s not a lie and the information I want isn’t there. All you say is “I’ve written in another thread on HK” which most certainly isn’t a link to the thread, nor does it even give the name of the post.
Or if by “information” you’re referring to your quote from Wikipedia, you are out of your head if you think I’m going to come to a conclusion using only that as a basis.
As far as bowdlerizing your quote about Sa’id of Mogadishu, I could have quoted the whole thing and my statement would have still stood. Trading partnerships do not prove or disprove the existence of prejudicial stereotypes. Your “contingency” is a supposition about only one form that discrimination can take (“don’t touch our women”). I will add further that even if those stereotypes didn’t exist 7 centuries ago, that has no bearing on 7 centuries later. If the Chinese lacked prejudice about Africans in the 14th century, that still does not prove anything about the Chinese of the 20th and 21st centuries.
“If you weren’t hellbent on quoting only the parts of my arguments you find convenient to pursue your agenda”
You mean the way you’re hellbent on ignoring my question about the right to religious freedom?
“Sooner or later, jefe’s friends get jefe-itis”
So ironic. Out of all the regulars on this forum — excluding trolls like Biff and those who have been banned like Nomad — the two who I find the most prickly, quarrelsome, and obstinant are you and Jefe.
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“It’s not a lie and the information I want isn’t there.”
Right. “I am so f’n sick of that dead horse, and I have no intention of beating it. As far as I can tell, the only way to truly test which of you is right would be for HK to make the attempt and see what happens.” Your ‘test’ is bs lifted from jefe’s bs propaganda. Why didn’t it occur to you that the Brits would have done such ‘test’ when they were in charge for over a century?
“Or if by “information” you’re referring to your quote from Wikipedia, you are out of your head if you think I’m going to come to a conclusion using only that as a basis.”
Right. “You could have found this information on your own, but people who fall under jefe’s spell end up repeating his lies or pretending, as you do here, that the truth is hard to ascertain. Nonsense.”
“As far as bowdlerizing your quote about Sa’id of Mogadishu, I could have quoted the whole thing and my statement would have still stood. Trading partnerships do not prove or disprove the existence of prejudicial stereotypes. Your “contingency” is a supposition about only one form that discrimination can take (“don’t touch our women”). I will add further that even if those stereotypes didn’t exist 7 centuries ago, that has no bearing on 7 centuries later. If the Chinese lacked prejudice about Africans in the 14th century, that still does not prove anything about the Chinese of the 20th and 21st centuries.”
Right. “…No evidence that the Yuan Dynasty, anymore than the PRC, discriminated based on skin color. If you have evidence to the contrary, I’m all ears.” Your claim of ‘discrimination’ is nonsense since 14th century Mogadishu wasn’t subordinate to Yuan China anymore than present day Africa is to the PRC. Their relationships are based on mutually agreed trade and cultural exchange.
“Didn’t take you long to start, though, did it?”
Real simple, don’t lie and I won’t call you a liar.
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“When the tanks got to the square they knocked down the statue of liberty. The people threw bricks and stones at the army, whatever they could, they set trucks on fire, they beat up and killed soldiers who got separated and took their guns. But the army kept shooting and shooting and shooting. Some students stood in front of the monument where the funeral had begun all those weeks before. They waited for their deaths.
By morning the square was cleared. The hospitals said at least 1400 died that night.
– Abagond, 2009.”
As the Wumao designate, those damn fifty cents checks are a pain to cash, I must protest this cinematic confection of our genial host. Why? Because that vivid scene was the brainchild of Ms Chai Ling, a student leader in 1989, not reality.
Her Wikipedia entry says the following: “Controversies
Documentary controversy
Footage from a documentary titled The Gate of Heavenly Peace shows viewers parts of an interview between Chai and reporter Philip Cunningham from May 28, 1989, a week prior to the Tiananmen Square Incident. In the footage, Chai makes the following statements:
The footage has been verified by third-party media specialists as genuine, and is readily available online.[74] Chai, however, claims that she had been misquoted and that the footage used “interpretive and erroneous translation”.[75] Although Chai later decided to remain with the students, declassified US embassy cables published on Wikileaks contradicted her later witness testimonial of experiencing a massacre in the square.[76]
Chai and her firm have launched multiple lawsuits against the film’s non-profit producers, the Long Bow Group. An initial suit, in which Chai alleged defamation, was summarily dismissed. An additional suit claimed that the organization infringed upon Jenzabar’s trademark by mentioning the firm’s name in the keyword meta tags and title tag for a page about Jenzabar on its website.[77] Her lawsuits were subsequently criticized by some commentators, including columnists for the Boston Globe and the New Yorker.[78][79][80][81] In the end, each of her legal actions against the film were dismissed by the Massachusetts appeals court.[82][83] The Superior Court handed Jenzabar its comeuppance, which is a rare ruling – an award to defendants of more than $500,000 in attorney fees and expenses, “subjected Long Bow to protracted and costly litigation not to protect the goodwill of its trademark from misappropriation, but to suppress criticism of Jenzabar’s principles and its corporate practices.” in the ruling.[84] ”
A more accurate description of what transpired can be found here:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbEpfOPPay8)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bITnthkgwRc)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyRWxsnYmPg)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mQ3OYrl0hI)
‘Wumaoism’ at your service.
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21 days “laytair”(sic), no reason given for this falsification or an explanation for the ‘error’, if ‘error’ is the reason for it.
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Yesterday, the CPC celebrated its centenary, yet, not one ‘heartfelt’ condemnation of such meretricious celebration of all that’s unholy, at least from your point of view, what gives?
It was the perfect time to remind everyone of the Uyghur ‘genocide’, ‘Tiananmen Square massacre’ where you ‘witnessed’ “… the army kept shooting and shooting and shooting…” and of the ’40 million plus’ that you ‘know’ Mao starved to death.
“abagond
I never dreamed back then that the communists would still rule China 20 years later. Back then not only was communism falling in Europe but so did white rule in South Africa. It seemed like all the bad guys were on their way out.”
Twelve years after you wrote the above, this ‘bad guy’ is the engine of the global economy and the only nation able to mobilize its entire population to control an epidemy health officials around the world knew would arrive. I guess ‘evil’ triumphs in our ‘sinful’ world.
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Yesterday, the CPC celebrated its centenary, yet, not one ‘heartfelt’ condemnation of such meretricious celebration of all that’s unholy, at least from your point of view, what gives?
It was the perfect time to remind everyone of the Uyghur ‘genocide’, ‘Tiananmen Square massacre’ where you ‘witnessed’ “… the army kept shooting and shooting and shooting…” and of the ’40 million plus’ that you ‘know’ Mao starved to death.
“abagond
I never dreamed back then that the communists would still rule China 20 years later. Back then not only was communism falling in Europe but so did white rule in South Africa. It seemed like all the bad guys were on their way out.”
Twelve years after you wrote the above, this ‘bad guy’ the engine of the global economy and the only nation able to mobilize its entire population to control an epidemy health officials around the world knew would arrive. I guess ‘evil’ triumphs in our ‘sinful’ world.
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Abagond, what happened to my comments?
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Abagond is sore because I exposed him as a fabulist i.e. a liar. He has banned me without stating which of his ‘precious’ rules I violated. I guess it was for telling the truth.
Abagond, since I’m now persona non grata have the decency to do the job correctly by erasing all my comments from your blog. Thank you, its been fun while it lasted.
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My apology to Abagond, I thought you had blocked my comments since several disappeared after I hit post.
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