Here are some famous people (famous enough to be in the Wikipedia, at least) who have white fathers and black mothers. They are listed in order of birth year:
1700s:
1710s:
1720s:
1730s:
Prince Hall
1740s:
1750s:
1760s:
1770s:
Sally Hemings (Thomas Jefferson’s mistress).
1780s:
1790s:
1800s:
1810s:
Frederick Douglass.
1820s:
1830s:
1840s:
1850s:
1860s:
Adam Clayton Powell, Sr.
1870s:
1880s:
1890s:
1900s:
1910s:
1920s:
Eartha Kitt.
1930s:
1940s:
Ronnie Spector, Bob Marley, August Wilson, Jerry Rawlings (once president of Ghana).
1950s:
1960s:
Malcolm Gladwell (wrote “Blink”), DeBarge, Lenny Kravitz, Gloria Reuben, Marie Daulne (Zap Mama), Slash, Michael Michele, Soledad O’Brien, Karyn Parsons, Mariane Pearl (wife of Daniel Pearl, played in Hollywood by Angelina Jolie), Salli Richardson, Cree Summer, Rebecca Walker (daughter of Alice Walker).
1970s:
Thandie Newton, Tracee Ellis Ross (“Girlfriends”, daughter of Diana Ross), Maya Rudolph (“Saturday Night Live”, daughter of Minnie Riperton), Amel Larrieux (Groove Theory), Faith Evans, Benjamin Jealous (NAACP), Leila Arcieri, Les Nubians (both of them), Zadie Smith, Tamia, Marsha Thomason (“Black Knight”), Tia & Tamera Mowry, Noemie Lenoir, Shakara Ledard.
1980s:
Farrah Franklin (once a part of Destiny’s Child), Lauren London, Jennifer Freeman (“My Wife and Kids”, “You Got Served”), Tahj Mowry.
Here are some things that strike me about this list when compared to my other list, the one with those who have black fathers and white mothers:
- Three-fourths are women.
- Nearly half were born between 1964 and 1974 (from Lenny Kravitz to Les Nubians).
- It goes deeper into the past.
- Only two are British: Newton and Thomason.
- On the whole, they do not seem as famous or outstanding as their counterparts on the other list. Nearly all the star power on this list was born before 1950, like Marley and Douglass.
No doubt there are people I overlooked, but any additions can shift the list by only so much.
The third one – that it goes deeper into the past – is no surprise because white men were allowed to take black women as mistresses or even rape them; black men were often hanged if they tried the same with white women.
The second one – that half were born from 1964 to 1974 – is no accident: those were the years when the future of race in America looked hopeful: racism was dying. But somewhere between 1972 and 1974 that progress stopped. Maybe there will be a wave of mixed-race Obama babies over the next several years.
A study done in 1974 showed that mixed children with black mothers had lower IQs than those with white mothers – although their IQs were still far higher, on average, than blacks in general, both light-skinned and dark-skinned. Their IQs were close to that of white children.
Studies show that light-skinned blacks get more education and make more money on average that dark-skinned blacks. How much, if any, of that difference comes from the white parents that some have?
Who I assumed was white: Ronnie Spector, Malcolm Gladwell, Slash, Maya Rudolph, Soledad O’Brien (white/Hispanic).
Who I thought was mixed before I knew the facts: none.
See also:
Abagond 
I’ll assume the white father of Tracee Eliss Ross is not Michael Jackson?
I wonder if David Bowie and Iman have any progeny? I know that DeNiro and his lovely wife have at least one child.
As to the IQ thing, I wonder whether there is a pattern of (a) WM/BW pairs splitting up when the children are young, and (b) single parenthood affecting IQ?
I also find it curious that there appears to have been a “surge” of WM/BW babies (or, at least, babies that went on to become famous enough to make Wikipedia) between ’64 and ’74, followed by a dearth. Agabond’s explanation of it seems as plausible as any.
When I was dating a BW at University of Michigan in the early 1980’s, we were a rarity around campus and elicited stares and open hostility from both blacks and whites. However, now, in the area where I live, there is a whole generation of golden babies with WM/BW parents who are together as intact families. We see them everywhere. In the instances of which I am personally aware, the parents in these marriages tend to both be highly educated, which generally means that they stress education with their children as well. Assuming this pattern repeats itself across the nation, I’d expect IQ among this demographic to spike in the next decade.
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Some corrections:
Dorothy Dandridge’s father isn’t white, to my knowledge.
Bob Marley’s father was mixed race. He was passing. This is documented in a biography about Marley’s early life by Christopher James Farley. Check it out.
Vanity’s mother is a white German woman. Her father’s black.
Also:
These studies often contradict themselves. You have studies about IQ, but there were recent studies that indicate that children from black/white offspring are pretty much similar to black children from monoracial parentage.
Also, how can one really make a valid studies about the correlation between skin shade and life progression? I really want to believe those types of studies but they’re up there with “tall people make more money” and my fave, “attractive people get more jobs”. (All actual studies) Sure, they’re all believable, but how do you accurately measure that? Perceptions of attractiveness and skin shade are all based on individual perception. It’s fluid, not fixed. You get what I mean?
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Thanks for the corrections. You are right about Vanity and I will grant you Dorothy Dandridge since I cannot back it up, but I stick by Bob Marley – at least for now 😉
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No, prob.
Both of Dandridge’s parents were black. Solidly so, I must add.
Check out the book “Before The Legend: the Rise of Bob Marley”, about Marley’s early life in Jamaica, before the fame. It’s really interesting. It also untagles the webs of untruths and myths about his biological family. One of those myths were the racial origins of his father.
Some notable omissions: Tamia (R&B singer), the Debarge family.
Also, these two lists are interesting but it’s silly to make grand judgements about racial progress based on a collection of noted celebrities. I mean, all these people really are, are just people who were lucky enough to get a shot in their chosed field. With the exception of a few, the average American doesn’t even know most of these people.
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The lists are interesting, but, like you say, they are not rigorous enough to prove anything.
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I have no idea how they draw the line between light-skinned and dark-skinned in those studies.
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Blanc2, you said:
However, now, in the area where I live, there is a whole generation of golden babies with WM/BW parents who are together as intact families. We see them everywhere.
Wow. I have seen nothing like that. Maybe it depend on where you live and what circles you travel in.
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Lauren London and Benjamin Jealous (president of the NAACP) are two more omissions from your collection.
In response to Blanc2’s comment: I’ll admit, it’s not rare for me to see a white woman with her visibly black child. But these instances are still far outweighted by white women I observe with their unequivocally white children. Same with blacks: I do some black with “mixed”-looking kids, but again, very much outweighted by blacks with unequivocally black children.
So, products of black/white unions, remain a relatively small yet growing and visible minority. No?
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I thought of Lauren London, but could not confirm the race of her parents.
Do you know anything about Dave Justice?
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I see white women with mixed children on occasion, but rarely do I see white men with mixed children.
This is in and near New York City.
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Don’t forget Babara Becker, the wife of famed tennis star Boris Becker. Her father is an established artist who is African American and her mum is German. Also, Boris Becker has 3 beautiful bi-racial children.
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I see lots of white men with mixed children. But not WM/BW – it tends to be White men with Asian women.
I work with two people who are one half of a WM/BW union…but out of the whole company…that is a very small percentage.
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I didn’t even know that London was a product of an interracial union until she mentioned a picture of her parents being one of her a valuable possessions in a Complex magazine interview. This link below shows excerpts from said piece:
http://www.whudat.com/newsblurbs/more/lauren_london_reveals_her_eight_most_prized_possessions_1680522081/
I don’t know of Justice being from an interracial parentage.
Wow, you live in NYC, the supposed liberal melting pot of the US and you don’t see lots of black/white unions? That says a lot. As I’ve mentioned numerous times before, I also live up North, not too far from NYC.
I’ll admit, it’s also rare for me to see white men with “mixed” children. Although today I did see a white man with his Eurasian-appearing kids. But it’s not very common at all. Interesting.
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I added London. I should have known: I did a post on her last March in which I said her father was white and her mother black. But that link goes to such a cool picture I am glad I forgot.
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In New York you do see white men dating black women – but it seems like few marry them and even fewer still have children by them.
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I live in NYC and I see BW/WM couples all the time. Abagond I don’t know what part you live in but maybe that factors in. But most of the BW/WM couples I see are young. I’m talking 20 something y/o. So maybe that’s why I don’t see WM with mix children either. I also don’t see BW walking around with mix children.
I’ve seen a couple of time older BW/WM couples and they had children.
Also if you’re talking about Manhattan it will mainly be young BW/WM couples because it’s “in the city” although NYC consist of 5 boroughs. So you may not see a family: BW/WM and children walking down the street.
If you were to see such a thing it would likely be in the suburbs. ie Up state NY, Long Island or even NJ, which is like a suburb for many New Yorkers.
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I am thinking mainly of Manhattan (all parts – not just Midtown and Wall Street), Queens and New Jersey. I see plenty of white men with black women, but what I rarely see, what I am talking about in this case, is white men with black children that are their own. This is in contrast to what Blanc2 reports in Minnesota. I do on occasion see white women with their black children.
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Mona: I added Barbara Becker – to the other list, right before Halle Berry. Thanks.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/12/02/black-father-white-mother/
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Wow – Eartha Kit is beautiful!!! –
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Here’s some irony:
Today, I once again saw some haggard-looking white man with his East Asian mate and their two boys. Only to see a black woman with her white mate just a while later. Two interracial couple sighting involving white men in a day! Crazy! LOL. (My tongue’s planted firmly in check, if you couldn’t tell.)
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This is great!
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That makes me glad I put it up. Some commenters did not see the point in it.
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This is a much needed thread. Not all multiracials are black man/white woman.
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Thanks – for this and the other times you explained the why of my posts to commenters.
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Not all products of interracial products are black/white, either.
How about a post about white/Asian people? There’s more of them in the media eye than black/non-black people. People you’d be surprised by. Unlike people who have a black parent, their race isn’t scruntinized.
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Not all products of interracial unions are black/white, either.
How about a post about white/Asian people? There’s more of them in the media eye than black/non-black people. People you’d be surprised by. Unlike people who have a black parent, their race isn’t scruntinized nearly as much.
Some more omissions from the collection above:
Angela Nissel (author, “Mixed”- great book, very funny & insightful)
B5 (singing group)
Jill Jones (singer)
Pat Smear (guitarist, Foo Fighters)
Giancarlo Esposito (actor- yeah, I couldn’t believe it either)
Eartha Kitt (actress/singer)
Evan Ross (actor, son of Diana)
Brooklyn Sudano (actress, daughter of Diana Ross)
Taimak (actor)
Rachel True (actress)
Van Vicker (Ghanaian actor)
Mat Johnson (author)
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Brooklym Sudano is the daughter of Donna Summer. Sorry, for the typo.
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Thanks.
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Good idea: “white father, Asian mother” would be a good post, especially when it can be compared to this one.
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T]hese are the facts concerning Obama’s LSAT score while attending Law School at Harvard University. We do not know his actual LSAT score; however, after much research, we found that the average LSAT score for all Harvard students is 171. The percentile rank for an LSAT score of 171 at Harvard is 98.8 %.
MENSA will accept LSAT scores as a means of qualifying for MENSA membership. (MENSA also accepts up to 200 various IQ tests and other tests of cognitive function as well.) The LSAT score required for MENSA membership is equal to a percentile of 95% or higher. Thus, basing Obama’s estimated LSAT score of 171 ranks him in the top 98.8% (percent/percentile) range which is clearly above the lowest acceptable LSAT percentage rank of 95%, which clearly affirms that Obama has a qualifying intelligence quotient that would allow him acceptance into MENSA.
Since MENSA accepts various IQ Tests as well as other cognitive tests to qualify for MENSA membership it is safe to estimate that Obama’s IQ Score could range anywhere from a low IQ score of 130 based on the Stanford Binet IQ Test, Revision 5, to a high IQ score of 148 based on the Cattell IQ Test.
What the IQ guy failed to account for is the fact that Harvard University practices affirmative action. PBS Frontline reports: “The gap in SAT scores persists even at the highest levels of achievement. A study of the 1989 applicants to five highly-selective universities found that white candidates’ average combined SAT score was 186 points higher than the corresponding SAT average for African American applicants.”
Furthermore, the New York Times reports that “At the best schools, by contrast, efforts to diversify the student body translate into a 400-point bonus for minority students on the SAT tests.”
That 98.8 ranking based on the average Harvard LSAT translates to about a 135 IQ and a combined SAT score of 1290. That’s pretty good, if not spectacular. However, due to affirmative action, one must reduce that score by at least 186 points. (Also, I suspect the NYT article is talking about the new SAT, which isn’t valid for the purposes of this comparison.) Thus, giving Obama the benefit of the doubt drops his score to 1104, which is approximately equivalent to an IQ of 116. That’s not bad, but it is significantly less intelligent than Hillary’s 140 IQ, as well as being lower than George W. Bush’s 125 IQ (1206 SAT).
Before one points to the fact that Obama ranked highly in his class, it’s important to keep in mind that Bill Bradley was a Princeton Rhodes Scholar despite his 485 Verbal SAT and mediocre 103 IQ. Academic success, like every other kind of success, is just as much about hard work and determination as it is about intellectual firepower, but Barack Obama’s supporters obviously shouldn’t be attempting to make their case for him on the basis of what is, based on the available information, probably an IQ of 116, only one standard deviation above the norm. Of course, this estimate is based on averages which don’t necessarily apply to a single individual; Obama could lay the matter to rest by simply permitting his scores to be released to the public.
If his intelligence is so incredibly important, as some of his more visibly insane supporters insist, then surely the senator should inform us precisely how intelligent he is. Because he demonstrates his ignorance and a less-than-impressive intelligence nearly every time he opens his mouth despite his handlers attempts to retroactively fix his statements: “The fact that we have reached a point where the Federal Reserve felt it had to take this unprecedented step with the American Insurance Group is the final verdict on the failed economic philosophy of the last eight years.”
First, AIG didn’t fail because of the economic philosophy of the last eight years. The Fed began goosing the markets under Clinton. Second, that “unprecedented step” was taken with the American International Group.
REPLY
FACTS
In 2003, 3 African nations, Ghana, s. Africa, and Botswana participated in TIMSS physics. The average score for the 5,150 students in Botswana who took the test was 443, seven of whom scored over 505, and none of whom scored over 549. The average score for the 8,952 students in South Africa who took the test was 244, thirteen of whom scored over 447, and none of whom scored over 514. So also in Ghana, where the average score for their 5,100 students was 239, seven of whom scored over 427, and none of whom scored over 514.
Conversely, the average score for the 6,018 students in Singapore was 579, eight of whom scored lower than 462, and none of whom scored lower than 423. At best we can say that eight students in Singapore MAY have scored lower than SEVERAL of the thirteen highest scoring students in South Africa and SEVERAL of the seven highest scoring students in Ghana. No student in Singapore scored 4 standard deviations higher than their mean, or 735, much less 5 standard deviations higher, at 774.
So needless to say, no student in Botswana, South Africa, nor Ghana ever scored four standard deviations higher, or 549, 514, or 489, respectively, either, much less five standard deviations higher, or 593, 581, or 551 respectively. Such scores are in the range of the average for Taipei and Korea, whose IQs are in the range of 105 IQ points. It simply boggles the imagination for us to be expected to believe that Obama was the ONE Kenyan in the entire world who scored not just one but TWO standard deviations higher than a place where NO Ghanan, Botswanan, or South African has ever ventured. To claim that his IQ is 132 IQ points, yet another three standard deviations higher than the impossible, is the height of absurdity. It would make Obama more valuable as a Wringly Brothers’ Circus freak than a six legged elephant. Yet that’s exactly the claim that his presidential campaign made and you should be embarrassed to the hilt to see so many of your fellow countrymen fall for this circus act.
The average IQ of Kenya is 71 IQ points, the same as for Ghana, and 1 point lower than both Botswana and South Africa, at 72 IQ points. Out of 38 million Kenyans, do you know how many score more than 5 standard deviations higher than that? Only 11 do, at an IQ of only 96 IQ points, four standard deviations higher than their mean, and NONE have an IQ higher than 101 IQ points, five standard deviations higher than the mean. Obama’s not even a Kenyan. He’s a mixed breed and most mixed breeds of most species are of lower quality and intelligence than the pure breeds (otherwise why don’t mules race in horse races)?
California voters consider affirmative action to be CHEATING, which is why we outlawed it with Proposition 209 which actually amended the state constitution for the express purpose of KILLING it. Obama is clearly left over from those days.
Why not simply require him to take the normal IQ test which any dog catcher in the country has to take in order to qualify for his job?
You can bet that this would settle the matter once and for all.
Correction, Tues. Dec. 23, 2008: 7% of the population of Botswana are Whites who score similar to their brethren back in England at 545, meaning that the 93% who’re blacks scored 358. Only seven black students from Botswana scored over 456 and none of them scored over 514. Therefore, none of the lowest scoring eight students in Singapore who scored lower than 462 are likely to have scored lower than the seven top scoring black students from Botswana, meaning there was no overlap of test scores between Singapore and Botswana.
Who Runs it?
Senators: Barack Obama & Dick Durbin
Representative: Jesse Jackson, Jr.
Illinois Governor: Rod Blogojevich (arrested)
Illinois House leader: Mike Madigan
Illinois Attorney General: Lisa Madigan (daughter of Mike)
Chicago Mayor: Richard M. Daley (son of Mayor Richard J. Daley)
The leadership in Illinois:
All Democrats.
The combat zone in Chicago:
Body count in the last six months:
292 killed (murdered) in Chicago
221 killed in Iraq
State pension fund:
$44 Billion in debt, worst in the country.
Cook County ( Chicago ) sales tax:
10.25% highest in country. (Look it up).
Chicago school system:
Rated one of the worst in the country.
Of course, they’re all blaming each other.
They can’t blame Republicans because there aren’t any.
This is the political culture that Obama comes from in Illinois .
And he’s going to ‘”fix” Washington politics for us?
Good luck and may YAHWEH help us.
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Troll alert
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Thanks, Kat. I was about to delete it for being off-topic, but it does follow a thread from the posts above it.
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you thought maya was white? how do you think snl got away with casting her as every black, asian, italian, etc.?
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That does not mean much: they have had white men play Obama and Jess Jackson. And even Eddie Murphy has played white men.
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Tracee Ellis Ross was born Tracee Joy Silberstein. I wonder what reasons, if other
than to take the last name of her famous mother to be known, why she change her name?
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Diana Ross changed the names of all three Silberstein daughters – Rhonda, Tracee and Chudney – from Silberstein to Ross. She has never explained why, but it was after she divorced Silberstein and just before she sent the girls to boarding school in Switzerland.
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Just noticed a mistake:
Etta James.
Her daddy wasn’t white. There was an old rumor that a famous mobster was her father, but that untruth has been deflated years ago.
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Thanks. I will take her off.
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“Perceptions of attractiveness and skin shade are all based on individual perception. It’s fluid, not fixed. You get what I mean?”
It’s very possible to objectively measure attractiveness (but not beauty, which is not the same thing). Simply make a photo of a person, scan it in, and have the computer measure the features for symmetry. The more “average” you look, the more attractive you are.
Check out this site: http://www.faceresearch.org/demos/average
Try it out. You’ll see what I mean. It doesn’t matter how ugly or attractive each face is, the average of three is always more attractive.
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The article is also very interesting. Seems that it’s not just the average, but the hyper-average that’s the best-looking. I guess that would be the difference between attractive and beautiful.
And before you say, “So only mixed (black-white) people are attractive?” remember: the mix isn’t reliant on race. A black person who’s genetically diverse would also be considered more attractive than one whose parents came from the same tribe.
My husband comes from a town in Germany that has had the same 15 families in it since the Roman times. No kidding. He and his brother are noticeably better looking than all of the others because their father is from a different town, even though his parents aren’t particularly good-looking. Even such a small genetic difference can make a BIG impact.
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What?! Slash is mixed? Lol, I bet that MANY people are not aware of this. Whenever some fool says that black people aren’t rockers, I’ll make sure to bring him up, as well as state that black people founded rock and roll as I always do.
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This is really interesting. I have a white dad and a black mom.
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Etta James!!! Don’t forget her.
Also, there was some girl on ANTM whose father was German. I think her name was Jaslyn?
There’s also Playmate Ida Ljungqvist and a slew of German or Dutch/African models who I don’t recall at the moment.
Taimak of that lost dragon movie was half Italian, from his father.
Also, people forget that Mick Jagger’s first child was born by a black woman, Marsha Hunt I think.
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Actually 3 of them are British. Slash was born in London. He was raised in Stoke-On-Trent, Staffordshire untill he was 11 when his family moved to LA.
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Imani Coppola’s mother is black and her father is italian.
And since we’re adding ANTM models on here, Jael’s mother is black and her father is jewish.
Last but not least, my all-time favorite: Amber Rose (model), who’s mother is black (African, from Cape Verde) and father is italian.
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And since I’m Nigerian and love both Nollywood and Ghollywood films, how could I forget about Van Vicker, Majid Michel, Ramsey Nouah, and Juliet Ibrahim.
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Are they all white father/black mother or just some kind of mixed?
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Van Vicker is a product of a white father/back mother. I’m not sure about the others.
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I dont want mixed children they grow up conceited thinking they are better than everyone else because they are light with curly hair dont get me wrong mixed babies are cute but so are all black babies cuter in my opioion. I want to keep my race from being completety diluted. We gotta keep Black on Black love alive you guys. I want nothing but cute black babies.
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I’ve always thought that mixed people from Black mothers and Non-Black fathers were a little extra special. They tend to be a little bit more attractive IMO and even more down to earth. They relate more to their Black side being that they were raised by Black mothers/women. There are way more people that you’re forgetting. And I don’t know if you’re also including those who have Asian, Latino NA, Indian fathers etc.
Anyway here are some more:
Dollicia Bryan
Rita G
Shelly Rio
Nicole Lyn
Susie Fogelson
Cassie Ventura
Jhene Chilombo
Rozonda “Chilli” Thomas
Raphael De Niro
Yvette Barlowe
Some I can think of 🙂
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Thanks.
Just white fathers, black mothers here. I have another post for those who are half-white, half-Asian. I hope to do one on Blasians too.
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so all the males born to black mothers, white fathers are technically white, as all there forfathers where white, even tho they look black. where as if there fathers where black and the mothers white, then they are black, but may look paler. the girls carry on the gene of there mother, it depends on what sex the child is that determines, which genes they carry on.
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That did not make sense to me. In America at least, race is based on appearance, not which parent was what.
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I am a multiracial woman(Black, Irish and Indian) and have 3 kids with my white husband. People used to stare a lot. My girls are fair-skinned, one with blonde hair and green eyes, my youngest with brown curly hair and blue eyes, my son has pecan skin with green eyes. Plenty of times I was asked, “are these your children?, even though I have green eyes and red hair myself. I just think people’s reaction are hilarious.
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hey agabond if you want to go even further back into history please check the story of alessandro de medici http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alessandro_de%27_Medici
he was born to a black maid and white royal father. alessandro become the duke of florence and was one of the most powerful men in europe. he was assassinated by his cousin. alessandro’s two children giulia de medici and giulio de medici are considered ancestors of many of today’s European royal houses and noble families
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“so all the males born to black mothers, white fathers are technically white, as all there forfathers where white, even tho they look black. where as if there fathers where black and the mothers white, then they are black, but may look paler. the girls carry on the gene of there mother, it depends on what sex the child is that determines, which genes they carry on.”
gaz has a point you know. in many old european societies (such as italian and portuguese), were very patriachal. you were what your father was. if your father was black you were a black and if your father was white your were a white. case in point is my alessandro de medici who i mentioned in my earlier comment.
this was the common frame mind hundreds of years ago in europe and it was often extended to mulattos(especially light skinned ones).
this has also happened in more modern times too. my mother is mixed race and was born in what was then known as portuguese west africa(now angola).. her father was white portuguese and her mother was black. society in portugal classified my mother as portuguese i.e. was not questioned by either blacks or whites. this is also in part due to the lusotropicalism view of portugal( very pro-miscegenation)and the fact that my mother is very light skinned with more caucasian features.
I myself have grown up in italy, my father is italian.. and here no-one is questioning my ‘italianess’ if you can call that.
to be honest i am not critcising because everywhere is different and i do not judge.. but i find america’s one drop rule a little strange
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and just to clarify i am not saying it is better for mixed race individuals to be viewed as only one thing.
I myself think of being italian but also have pride for my black heritage
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The reason you mainly see White women with their Black children as opposed to White men with their Black children is because women are the primary caregivers of their children. How many lightskinned or brown skinned children with their brown or darkskinned mothers have you overlooked? I know several BW/WM married people with children of various skin colors.
I have a dark skinned female friend married to a White guy and they have a light skinned child with curly hair and I have a dark skinned female friend married to a white guy with a brown skinned son that has tight coiled hair. Many people would not assume the child has a white father. And furthermore the children are usually with the mother when out at the park.
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^^^
Why do you keep emphasizing skin color? I’m confused, does it have any significance with what you were trying to say? I’m sorry but your post was confusing.
And no, the great majority of black children from black/white parentage have white mothers. We can all debate on why that it is.
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lol co-sign mynameismyname. I didn’t see the significance of skin complexion with this post. Abagond posted pictures of BW/WM unions and the famous celebrities whose parents are of the union. We are not talking about skin complexion at all. Totally derailing, but I do understand that their are people of Black/White unions whose childre’s skin complexions deviates from light to dark. That’s why I don’t understand people who depicts what a “bi-racial” person looks like. There is no such thing.
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^^
Exactly!
Dani, stop taking the words out of my mouth with your posts! LOL. I’m only kidding.
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abagond, do you think of someone differently if you know their father is this, and mother that? if you didnt know marley or Frederick Douglass were biracial or had white dads before, but then found out, would you think of them any differently? I could tell marley was mixed,and Frederick Douglass, i didnt know that, but it didnt change my opinion at all. just curious, did it change yours? {im honestly asking, not trying to be snobbish.}
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Not at all. I did not know that most of these people had white fathers. Knowing it now does not change my opinion of them – unless I had thought of them as white, like Maya Rudolph.
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Wow, you thought Rudolph was white? Race really is subjective!
I always knew she was black since her days on the short-lived, black medical drama “City of Angels”. She looks very much like her legendary mother Minnie Riperton.
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I thought Maya Rudolph was Jewish.
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People need to stop passing off that Frederick Douglass’ father is White and same with Bob Marley. Frederick Douglass said in his autobiography that he heard his father is White, but wasn’t sure. Same with Bob Marley it’s not certain his was White too.
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Bob Marley father is white or was. Don’t get it twisted.
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A study done in 1974 showed that mixed children with black mothers had lower IQs than those with white mothers – although their IQs were still far higher, on average, than blacks in general, both light-skinned and dark-skinned. Their IQs were close to that of white children
—–
Who conducted this study the KKK?
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Please add to the list…black mothers and white fathers:
Porschla Coleman (russell simmons’s ex)
Chutney Ross
Kit Shapiro (Eartha Kitt’s daughter)
Sidney Lumet’s two daughters
Blake Amanda , and Brandon Avery (Ron Perlman’s children aka HellBoy)
Grace Gibson (Lynn Whitfield’s daughter)
Ja’Net Dubois has a daughter by a white husband.
Grace Jones and Jean-Paul Goude have a son.
Alexandria Bowie (daughter of Iman and David Bowie)
I’ll have more later.
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mynameismyname Says:
^^^
Why do you keep emphasizing skin color? I’m confused, does it have any significance with what you were trying to say? I’m sorry but your post was confusing.
dani Says:
lol co-sign mynameismyname. I didn’t see the significance of skin complexion with this post. Abagond posted pictures of BW/WM unions and the famous celebrities whose parents are of the union. We are not talking about skin complexion at all.
———————————————
mynameismyname and dani, firstly this is my 2nd post on this topic so I don’t keep doing anything. Second, my post wasn’t to point out skin color it was to explain a possible reason why you don’t see a lot of white fathers with their mixed babies. I was responding to Abagond comments to Blanc2. Again, if the brown skinned mother is the primary caregiver and the child is brown skin then no one would notice that the child has a white father.
Now read these excerpts:
Blanc2:
“…..now, in the area where I live, there is a whole generation of golden babies with WM/BW parents who are together as intact families. We see them everywhere.”
abagond Says:
“Wow. I have seen nothing like that. Maybe it depend on where you live and what circles you travel in.”
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What? You thought Slash was white???
Sure, not many people saw his face, especially back in the days, but to me, he is clearly mixed. I first saw this man when i was about 12 and I went crazy.
I was never huge GNR fan, but I love Slash’s style. he might not be the greatest guitarist in history, but some things he does
Anyway, I might not be a perfect person to guess someone’s race (I have little to no experience with this), but to me, it’s clear Slash is mixed. Jennifer Beals, on the other hand- no way. I always knew this woman was amazingly beautiful, but I had no idea she was mixed. Yet, you say (at the appriopriate page) you “suspected” she was mixed.
About Bob Marley: He was at least part white. Well, his father was at least part white. I saw a photo of this man, and if he was really Nesta’s father, then that’s it. I don’t know if he had some black ansestors or passing as white. That man looked (to me, at least) like a typical white and guy. More so, he looked like a typical anglo guy.
I believe Bob Marley was mixed. What is wrong about him being mixed? Some white blood in him doesn’t change what he was.
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And I failed to finish my sentence about Slash. Well, I was going to write about his playing style and solos, but this blog isn’t about music so perhaps is off topic.
I had no idea (some) people think rock music is “white” and “black people aren’t rockers”. Excuse me?!? Even if we forget how rock music came to be- tell me: who is widely acknowledged as the best guitarist in history?
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Nita said:
mynameismyname and dani, firstly this is my 2nd post on this topic so I don’t keep doing anything. Second, my post wasn’t to point out skin color it was to explain a possible reason why you don’t see a lot of white fathers with their mixed babies. I was responding to Abagond comments to Blanc2. Again, if the brown skinned mother is the primary caregiver and the child is brown skin then no one would notice that the child has a white father.
No biggie. I just didn’t see how your post was related to the topic of Black mothers, White fathers. However, I do agree with you on skin complexion being subjective in interracial offsrpings.
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@ Mira
I thought Slash was White for some reason lol nothring wrong with Bob Marley having a White father is just that it wasn’t really confirmed of whether his father was white or not and people are taking that is the gospel truth and it’s still quite blurry of the ethnicity of his father. Yeah you are right people eare confused of Rock music’s origin that includes Black people.
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@ dani
I didn’t know there was any question about Bob Marley’s father. As far as I know, Norval Marley was his dad. And that man looks white (anglo white) to me. As far as I know, Marley referred to himself as mixed. His wife too (she knew he was mixed).
I didn’t know rock music was considered “white”. I guess I never thought much about it. I love rock music and wherever I look, there are black musicians. Many alternative and mainstream bands have black members, so I really never thought rock is considered “white”.
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I believe jazz singer Billie Holiday had an Italian father.
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Billie Holiday’s father was Clarence Holiday, a jazz guitarist and African-American.
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Keyshia Cole (she talks about her white Italian father in a Tyra show interview)
Rozalla Miller (English singer)
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With reference to a couple of really old comments from blanc2 &abagond I just wanted to say that I live in a southern African country (not South Africa though!) where mixed race couples (the majority, over 95% BW/WM) are fairly common. There are plenty of mixed race children here and they come from intact families.
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As i stated in the other forum, I echo the same sentiments here. Lets look at social environment, not skin color.
—–
I don’t buy this… “Skin color” aside (hmmm) or should we look at cultural influences? Education, public education, National trends…
I think we need to look at the poverty level, social influences, and draw some logical conclusions:
In general, families from an uneducated background, poorer area, are going to have issues with nurturing by sheer nature of the environment and cultural issues that affect them daily. (This becomes a “Black cultural issue in America because Blacks are disproportinately at a greater percentage in this category.) I would bet the same observations above could be made with poor whites.
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Suze
I wonder if it’s Botswana since you mentioned the president. It’s a great country! Been there on Safari! 😉
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Lol, well spotted MerriMay!
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wow, some of these avatars are crazy!!
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Suze
Botswana is a great country, my family has been on safari in the north, The Chobe, the Okavango Delta, Gaborone, we toured the diamond mines! That deep crater, not sure where, a small mining town Orapa/Jwaneng? The best diamonds are from Botswana. I worked briefly for De Beers in London, had a tough time telling these English folks that your country is the largest producers of diamonds.
And you’re right I saw BW/WM couples, all the time, they are by far the majority or IR couples!!
It’s the norm, LOL
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Abagond,
Why are you trying to separate black people by the race of their parents? It’s just silly. Most ,so called, black people in the USA are of mixed ancestry. This is nothing new. I hate to feel that people of colour are continuing to fall into the self/other destructive trap of believing that they are better or worse then others because of their colour or the colour of their parents.
When a racist (black or white) sees my child they are not going to take the time to ask him/her “What race are your parents?” They will just attack him/her.
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islandgirl,
Since you are in an IR and will maybe have children someday, do you think that biracials with black mothers are more well adjusted and down to earth? I just do not see too many black mothers tolerating this way of thinking.
To be honest, I know very few biracial people with black mothers, and those I do know, both or one of the parents is not American. But the ones I know (all women) don’t seem to feel they are superior to black. They have close friends that are black women and date black men. But they could have superior feelings that they don’t express.
I’m certainly not going to teach my children, overtly or covertly, that they are superior to monorocial blacks.
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I think the main thing is to instill pride in children for who they are, regardless of what other may say or think. Proud to be who you are as a person. I want my children to be proud of their bi-racial, multi-ethnic, Anglo-Afro-American/Brazilian, Irish, Yoruban, Spanish, Indian (Tupinamba most likely), Portuguese, German descended heritage…. LOL
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I agree Colorofluv
NatashaW,
You have a good head on your shoulder I think your children will be just fine.
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interesting info I have a stunning little boy who is half-half
I still can’t stop loving his mom for showing him to me at 6 months old. I did end up as the custodial parent and he is a natural athelete. What beautiful skin and very well proportioned. At age 2 years 2 months he can run like the wind as both parents ran track. She is 27 and very imature so I’m raising him at 52 and he keeps me young. All the mistakes that I made with my twenty year old I’m correcting this time around. I would sure like to find a nice woman who likes kids and be a family cause my son’s momma does’nt look like the family type. Besides being stunningly good looking she can’t find a groove that suits her. God either will or won’t decide that however. I’m busy loving him. I love him up, fill him up, and listen to him. Our nights are so predictable but I welcome the responsibility and we are doing fine. Oh’ one more thing foxy black girls just smile and smile’ I wish I had a date with one when they see us Have’nt been on a date for 19 months
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i think it is beautiful to be mixed and black..i mean no one can clearly changed who they are on the outside! my mom is black nd my dad is irish,indian and black..i get pick on everyday at school about my skin color because i am so bright!!!
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Slash:
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the picture that you have is of lauren london’s parents
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that pic up top is of lauren london’s parents
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abagond,
“Who I thought was mixed before I knew the facts: none.”
I knew all of these people were mixed, save a few like Lenny Kravitz, Lauren London, Farah Franklin (who I thought was black), and Maya Rudolph. It might have to do with me knowing more about them; some of my favorite people are on this list: Michael Michele, Thandie Newton, Amel Larrieux, Noemie Lenoir.
—————–
I know these are old comments but I’m just now reading through them…
mynameismyname:
“[Maya Rudolph] looks very much like her legendary mother Minnie Riperton.”
abagond:
“I thought Maya Rudolph was Jewish.”
I thought she was Jewish too! She looks so much like my Ashkenazi Jewish former mentor, it’s unreal. But now that I know who her mother is, I can definitely see the resemblance.
Nancy:
“And since I’m Nigerian and love both Nollywood and Ghollywood films, how could I forget about Van Vicker, Majid Michel, Ramsey Nouah, and Juliet Ibrahim.”
abagond:
“Are they all white father/black mother or just some kind of mixed?”
They are all white father/black mother.
You should update the list with some of the suggestions given in the comments.
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someone commented on what a racist sees, and that they “only see black”. well as an african american, i feel black is social construct, something put in place to keep us in place, you dig?
so i am considered “black” but i am truly an African, ( of course i know I’m black thats evident) but the just being “black” thing simplifies me when i am so much more. when a racist only sees a biracial child as being “black” and therefore we should call him or her that, isn’t that saying that “white” people define black people? why, why is the one drop rule still in effect here. if i was half of something else, i am therefore not just “black”.
go to africa and say we are all just “black” in senegal, ghana, mali, ethiopia, tanzania, you will get looks. no they are Akan first, Twi, Amhara, Wolof, Fulani, Bambara, etc. because first they have an ethnicity and cultural group, and black has no real significance, its because of a loss of culture that African Americans are “just black” now. Biracial people should embrace both their parents, whatever they are, to not do so is blasphemy one side of who they are. i would be so insulted if i had a biracial child and he or she did not acknowledge me.
why should multicultural peopole simplify themselves because of other’s prejudice? we should not even do that as African Americans.
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Tia says,
someone commented on what a racist sees, and that they “only see black”. well as an african american, i feel black is social construct, something put in place to keep us in place, you dig?
so i am considered “black” but i am truly an African, ( of course i know I’m black thats evident) but the just being “black” thing simplifies me when i am so much more. when a racist only sees a biracial child as being “black” and therefore we should call him or her that, isn’t that saying that “white” people define black people? why, why is the one drop rule still in effect here. if i was half of something else, i am therefore not just “black”.
go to africa and say we are all just “black” in senegal, ghana, mali, ethiopia, tanzania, you will get looks. no they are Akan first, Twi, Amhara, Wolof, Fulani, Bambara, etc. because first they have an ethnicity and cultural group, and black has no real significance, its because of a loss of culture that African Americans are “just black” now. Biracial people should embrace both their parents, whatever they are, to not do so is blasphemy one side of who they are. i would be so insulted if i had a biracial child and he or she did not acknowledge me.
why should multicultural peopole simplify themselves because of other’s prejudice? we should not even do that as African Americans.
laromana says,
Tia, thanks for your excellent comment. I have always believed that the simplistic Black/White system of classification that is used in America INTENTIONALLY tries to DISMISS/IGNORE an individuals TRUE identity (ie cultural group/ethnicity) in favor of INACCURATE (usually appearance based) labels that help perpetuate RACISM/IGNORANCE.
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I have enjoyed reading this forum and the intelligent comments. ‘Black’/’Caucasian’ relationships are nothing new. And the whole thing about this is that majority of us WORLDWIDE have been MIS-Educated on the original names/places of indigenous peoples.
The terms ‘Black’ ‘White’ ‘Indian’, ‘Latino’ ‘White’,’Caucasian’ are mainly terms that have been created by Anthropologists/Archaeologists to undermine and obscure the true origins and ethnic identites of certain folks. They are FALSE identities.
‘White’ is a term that came about in the mid 1600’s American sub-Continent(created by the Elites) to separate the ‘Africans’ ‘Europeans’ and ‘Indians’ who were enslaved all together at one point in The Americas by BOTH ‘White’ and ‘Black'(Moorish) slavemasters. There was NO such thing as ‘White’ before then
We have been so miseducated it is a sin, and we walk around using these LABELS that have been assigned to us by those who ‘rule’ (won’t go into that).
Many so-called ‘Caucasians’ had ‘Black’ ancestry long long before the 1700’s because the Moors(Black Men from North Africa) literally ruled Europe from 711 AD-1492 AD(you do the math on what happened afterwards). The Roman Legions were also heavily comprised of ‘Black’/’African’ fighting forces, and it is well known and suppressed by Archaeologists/Anthropologists that the original inhabitants of early Europe were ‘African’/’Negroid’ in appearance based on the skulls/bone structure. There have even been ‘Black’ Roman Emperors(Septimus Severus) and ‘Black’ Popes.
Plenty of European scholars have written about this and one in particular was David MacRitchie in his 1885 book ‘Ancient and Modern Britons’.
Constantine Rafinesque even went as far to say that ‘Negroes’ were ‘Black’, ‘Tawny’, ‘Brown’, ‘Red’, and even ‘White’ in Complexion. This is all based on bone structure,hair texture, etc
I’m sorry for the History rambling but if we must understand why most of us are as ignorant as we are today, we must look at the real history that has been dramatically suppressed, mainly for the sake of those ‘Europeans’ who have elevated themselves to a very false level of superiority.
Someone above mentioned Alessandro DiMidici having a Black mother who was a maid in the royal DiMedici Court. That is half fact and half fiction because what has been obscured is that The Moors(‘Blacks’) ruled Europe for almost 800 years and originally BEGAN many of ‘European’ royal houses of the last 600 years. Their faces were in their original Aristocratic Coats of Arms of early ‘European’ Royal Houses. I highly doubt that she was a ‘Maid’.
It seems that whenever ‘Blacks’/’Africans’ pop up in places outside of Africa in ancient times or America prior to American Slavery it is so vehemnently pushed that they automatically must have been ‘slaves’, and that is yet another one of the biggest lies ever sold.
Othello was written to send a message.
MAJORITY of us regardless of what color or ethnicity know the full truth of history(especially here in America) and that is why we act as ignorantly as we do. Ill knowledge of history leads to ill behavior.
Anyway here are a few more folks from history that were ‘Black’/’Caucasian’ if we must say that.
Atilla The Hun( Based on some historical discriptions of him)
Leif Ericksson(Viking who sailed to America 1000 yrs b/f Colombus)
Augustine of Hippo
Aleksander Pushkin 18th Century Russian Composer
Ludwig Van Beethoven(Moor) Composer
Queen Charlotte of England(Moor)
Alessandro DiMedici(Moor)
Warren G. Harding
Benjamin Banneker(Created Blueprint of Washington DC) Father was a Moor, mother was ‘Black’/’Caucasian’
J.Edgar Hoover(First Director of F.B.I.)
Milton Berle
Carol Channing(Father was ‘Black’/’Caucasian’)
If you find this hard to believe plese do your own research. There is much much to learn!!!!!!
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I meant in the last statement that MAJORITY of us regardless of what color or ethnicity we are are do NOT know the full truth about History and that is why we act as ignorantly as we do. Ill knowledge of history leads to ill behavior.
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The accurate definition of the term Caucasian, ie. “peoples from the Caucasus region” comprises about 50 different ethnic groups of which, ironically, nobody looks Nordic, Anglo-Saxon or Celtic. Most people from that region look in fact Middle-eastern, Slavic or Balkan.
The misnomer “Caucasian race” was coined around 1800, based on pseudo-sciences like craniometry, phrenology and similar, long debunked nonsense. It’s baffling how those “classifications” get dug out centuries later, supported by allegedly “new research with modern methods”. Most of that sort of research is sponsored by right-wing organisations and individuals. Anyway, however you twist it, you will always find some ideologic bias and a sociopolitical agenda in that kind of research. Again, it’s dumbed down for the masses and neatly wrapped up in a “PC” term.
To be honest, it smacks of the misuse of the term “Aryan” by the nazis.
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The misnomer “Caucasian race” was coined around 1800, based on pseudo-sciences like craniometry, phrenology and similar, long debunked nonsense.
It should also be noted that the skull that came from the Caucassus which gave us the appelation “Caucasian” was probably that of a female sex slave.
(CF Nell Painter, “The History of White People”.
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As far as celebrities, let me add Alexandre Dumas to the list…
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Alexander Pushkin was also part black.
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It is interesting because it definitely does make a difference in regards to which circles you socialize. You can find great numbers of mixed kids in europe and within caribbean countries such as Jamaica and the Bahamas. In the case of the Bahamas it has been estimated that about 10% of the country’s population is mixed and in France mixed raced kids are set apart in a special category from black and white. The prevalence of biracial kids (B/W) far supersedes what is evident in the entertainment world. If we were to use the entertainment world as a subset to estimate racial changes in the world or even in the USA, it would be highly misinterpreted.
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@ Thaddeus, NELL PAINTER is in a sexual relationship with a white man as well.. Look for her interview on http://blogtalkradio.com/victim-of-racism
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^…So?
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I know this is going way back but there were several congressmen that were of white fathers/black mothers back during the recession period( right after the Civil War).
1. John Mercer Langston
2. PBS Pinchback
3. Robert Small
4. John R Lynch
Among others.
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I know you guys mentioned Maya Rudolph but did you guys know she is the daughter of Minnie Riperton.
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@Mira
Yeah, I just saw a picture of Norval Marley, Bob Marley’s father. Some people have tried to say he was mixed, but he looks like a pure white man to me.
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I made a mistake. I just realized I said recession period. No that is wrong. There were alot of black congressmen during the RECONSTRUCTION PERIOD that had black mothers and white fathers. The list is up above. Sorry for that. I know many of you guys were like “what is she talking about!”
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Being a product of a Black female and White father I have noticed that some Black females are unable to differentiate between a straight White male and a Gay White male. Some of us have Gay White male fathers who eventually lose interest in the relationship and not only abandon the mixed child but also the Black female. I used to wish I had a White mother instead of a Black mother because Most of the White mothers had something my mother lacked which was compassion for her mixed race child . (she also had color and hair complexes)
It was almost like if the kid came out looking too White some Black females would find the kid unlovable or hard to relate too. I highly doubt that Black females would adopt White kids if given the opportunity, where as you see a lot of White females more than willing to adopt kids from out of their race. Sorry Black mothers but you need to do a better job raising not only mixed race kids but also raising Black men. You need to give them fathers who won’t abandon them and just maybe they won’t abandon you for other women. Also teach them to respect women by being an example to them. Stop always blaming everything on slavery and take responsibility no one is perfect but be accountable for your actions in the role you play. The world is not against you for you are against yourself! Otherwise you will always have the brainwashing of a slave woman. My mother fucked up my life in some ways but I don’t hate her I feel sorry for her because she was racist against her own blood. That is a cancer in itself when you blood turns against you. Like Tupac said if you don’t change you can easily end up with a race of babies that will hate the ladies, that make the babies.
Keep you head up!
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^Er…what planet are you on?
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kim says,
Being a product of a Black female and White father I have noticed that some Black females are unable to differentiate between a straight White male and a Gay White male. Some of us have Gay White male fathers who eventually lose interest in the relationship and not only abandon the mixed child but also the Black female. I used to wish I had a White mother instead of a Black mother because Most of the White mothers had something my mother lacked which was compassion for her mixed race child . (she also had color and hair complexes)
It was almost like if the kid came out looking too White some Black females would find the kid unlovable or hard to relate too. I highly doubt that Black females would adopt White kids if given the opportunity, where as you see a lot of White females more than willing to adopt kids from out of their race. Sorry Black mothers but you need to do a better job raising not only mixed race kids but also raising Black men. You need to give them fathers who won’t abandon them and just maybe they won’t abandon you for other women. Also teach them to respect women by being an example to them. Stop always blaming everything on slavery and take responsibility no one is perfect but be accountable for your actions in the role you play. The world is not against you for you are against yourself! Otherwise you will always have the brainwashing of a slave woman. My mother fucked up my life in some ways but I don’t hate her I feel sorry for her because she was racist against her own blood. That is a cancer in itself when you blood turns against you. Like Tupac said if you don’t change you can easily end up with a race of babies that will hate the ladies, that make the babies.
Keep you head up!
laromana says,
kim,
I’m sorry about YOUR negative experiences as a mixed child of a BW/WM IRR, but you’re WRONG to GENERALIZE your negative experiences to ALL BW/WM IRR’s.
The FACT is that when it comes to IRR’s between BW/WM vs. BM/WW the LATTER have LONGER LASTING/MORE SOLID relationships.
Also, it’s a FACT that MOST BAM DON’T help to raise their children, REGARDLESS of the race of the mother (eg. Halle Berry, Alicia Keys, etc.), and it is NOT/has NEVER been BW’S fault that these BAM have this habit.
BW are also NOT RESPONSIBLE for HISTORICAL ANTI-BW RACISM in American culture/media.
MANY BW are doing/have done the BEST they can to OVERCOME the effects of the CONSTANT TRASHING of their HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY from MANY BAM and from a culture/media that has ALWAYS HATED them, for no other reason, than THEY ARE BW.
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@kim
you cant say all black mothers. for i am a black mother and i am very compassionate when it comes to my son. nobody comes before him and he is my true love. you contradict yourself when you say black women should move on from all the slavery stuff and yet your mother is the perfect example of the slave mind. and by your writing looks like you inherit her dirty ways. why should we move pass what exist today. i have seen plenty of white women that is not good mothers. sounds to me that your from a dsfunctional family and maybe your mother resent your father for being a gay white man and took it out on you. please don’t take it out on black women because black people in general is very compassionate. most mix kids,asians,blacks etc, that raised in a prodominately white environment always seems to want to be white. don’t blame black women blame your parents and history.
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I don’t mean to get off point here, but I ocassionally see white fathers with black children (not biracial). However, the child is usually adopted. So far, I have never seen a white male with a black “stepson”. Meaning, he married a black woman who was a single/divorced/widowed parent.
I think this explains how far we’ve come with interracial marriage and combined families.
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Speaking of Malcolm Gladwell…interesting article on CNN today – and I only happened on this specific post today! 🙂
http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/01/24/gladwell.explain/index.html?iref=NS1
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I notice that the female off spring of white fathers identify less with black men than they do with white men, especially if they grew up as daddy’s girls.
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I’ll like to add Amber Stevens: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber_Stevens
Born in ’86, daughter of Shadoe Stevens.
She probably become famous after your list was made.
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My friend A. Marley is a relative of Bob, and A. Marley’s father is for lack of a better word “pure” white. In a nutshell… A. Marley’s dad said Bob’s dad is white and i pretty much believe him. I mean he has no reason to lie right?!
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“so all the males born to black mothers, white fathers are technically white, as all there forfathers where white, even tho they look black. where as if there fathers where black and the mothers white, then they are black, but may look paler. the girls carry on the gene of there mother, it depends on what sex the child is that determines, which genes they carry on.”
gaz has a point you know. in many old european societies (such as italian and portuguese), were very patriachal. you were what your father was. if your father was black you were a black and if your father was white your were a white. I myself have grown up in italy, my father is italian.. and here no-one is questioning my ‘italianess’ if you can call that.
I understand and appreciate that tradition has its place but…I am baffled that this is the case. I know lots of mixed race children, primarily those that are the product of BM/WW and some the product of BW/WM but those that I know come in various hues and even if they wanted to ‘class’ or ‘pass’ themselves off as white would face huge obstacles, namely people questioning their mental state!! What is important is to always be open, honest and inform your children of their background which in this instance is always going to be rich and culturally diverse. 🙂
Talk about your own experiences as they get older and any questions they have (and they will ;-0 ) give as balanced and honest a response as you can though I dont prophes myself to know all the answers and at times even I am left mystified at the human psyche. Invariably into adult hood, people find/adopt their own cultural identity anyway but, I think it is extremely misleading and detrimental to almost deny one part of your heritage.
I see the ‘adult’ results of denial in terms of racial heritage in a lot of people of mixed parentage that I grew up with. I have said it before but unfortunately when I was growing up mixed race often meant mixed up! One in particular used to go round telling people that ther mother was raped by a black man and that as that was the case, this made her more white!!! It was painful to watch as they tried desperately hard to be accepted by people who heavily associate race with colour.
to be honest i am not critcising because everywhere is different and i do not judge.. but i find america’s one drop rule a little strange
I agree with that part of your statement though 🙂
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I’m a few years late, but this blog has been very interesting to read, as well as the comments. Being a black woman (Caribbean-American) pregnant with a child from a white man (Irish-American), so this gives me alot to think about. Perceptions of what some believe are mind blowing to me. Believe me, I will be walking around proud with my biracial child no matter what the skin color. Maybe she will even make this list 20 or so years from now if there is still a Wikipedia 🙂
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Hey SMB
Congratulations to you and your partner:-) . I definately agree with what you are saying about her walking around proud. I think much of the confusing/odd statments on forums like this obviously stem from ill educated upbringings – not just parents but any adult influences which is in part where children start to develop their ideas from. Hopefully in your case the example in the home will stand your child in good stead in the future – I certainly hope the same for my children too.
Can I ask (just being nosey really) what part of the Caribbean do your family hail from?
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SLASH BLACK WHATTTTTTTTTTT! lol
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It goes white and black and dutch and german and native american and european…..multi more than two and not bi. Holy Ghost the definition “bi” may be racist and nasty. Andwe are not “black only” God blessed you nasty racist pennsylvanian, maryland north eastern MEN….HOLY SPIRIT WILL tell me the truth. It shows up top we are not all blacks! How dare we go against The plan of God, and “we are” more on the white side via Holy Ghost. “we’re white”.
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Zadie Smith would be a thrid British person on this list.
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third*
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@ Peanut
1. I do not see myself having that bias but I will take your word for it – especially if other commenters agree – since almost by definition one is blind to one’s own biases.
2. The thing about rape “privileges” was meant to be an ironic reference to lynching. I changed the language to make it more straightforward.
3. The IQ thing is a Strange Fact whose cause is unknown. I never read it as “black women are stupid” but that IQ has little to do with the race of one’s parents since the IQ scores do not come out the way you would expect from a white racist point of view.
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I find it interesting that Abagond never assumed or even suspected that any of these persons were “mixed” before knowing the facts. In other words, each of these people were assigned to a racial category in the mind before any of the facts were known.
Maybe we could see a blog entry about the tendency to assign multi-racial people to a single race and the effect that this has on people and society.
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@Jefe
Maybe we could see a blog entry about the tendency to assign multi-racial people to a single race and the effect that this has on people and society.
Yes, looking at ‘perception’ ,the ‘assigning’ of race and the application of that to individuals would be an interesting topic methinks.
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My motheer is black and my father is white, so I experience these weird scenarios where white people think I’m black and black people think I’m white. Jefe has an interesting point about assigning a mixed-race as a single race, but people always ask me what colour am I, and I always respond that I am purple.
It always gets a laugh.
I don’t think mixed-race people should have to choose an identity, as we are all human beings, no matter what we look like on the outside. To classify ourselves as different from each other is primitive, and hopefully one day we will forget our racist past and judge ourselves based on our character rather than our gender or race.
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@Peanut
You are on point about stress.
http://www.marchofdimes.com/pregnancy/lifechanges_indepth.html
Stress can possibly complicate pregnancy leading to more low-birth rate, preemie babies, high infant mortality rate and developmental issue for the growing child.
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Interesting….. When are we going to be honest about the socialization and historical aspects of race in this country, as well as the reality of White supremacy? To play the let’s forget about race motto isn’t coming any time soon and why would Whites give up the status that comes with it, by and large? Hence, the reason all people of substantial Black African descent are viewed as or identify as Black under this social construct. A lot of slaves were products of WM/BW too. Think about that…..
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I worked with Minnie Ripperton for a quick minute, it was a tumultuous tour for me with a conflict with the music director.
But , before we went out on the “Perfect Angle ” tour, we would rehearse at her house. And there was little Maya running around in her diapers.
My son is no bs when it comes to defending his identity, dont mess with him on any side, because he will be right in someone’s face if they implicate him in any way because of his bi racial background
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There are a number of blogs and websites out there which discuss problems and issues that multiracial people deal with, including being assigned to racial categories by others. Abagond does not have to feel obligated to include blog posts about it unless he wants to.
However, I just found it interesting, as a blogger whose content has trended to focus on race issues in America over the past few years, he does some of the very things which, in another context, he would rail against (eg, some of the delusions that white protestant people believe about white people or black people or Asians or muslims or jews, etc.). On the one hand, he admits that not until after doing some research on multiracial people, he did not know that they were multiracial (meaning that he assigned them to a racial category). On the other hand, he has labelled some persons delusional if they do not accept or identify with the category that has been assigned to them.
A thousand people assign me to a thousand different categories. I suppose they all think I am delusional.
The fact that people are now allowed to officially identify themselves as multiracial if they want (eg, at least since the 2000 census), together with the growth of multiracial organizations on college campuses and in other areas of society, it is NOT DELUSIONAL if multiracial people do not fully accept at least some of the single categories they are assigned to by different people. It is not delusional if they want to come up with a new vocabulary to describe themselves.
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Zadie Smith is also Jamaican/British. . . she identifies with black. Most of her novels tend to deal with such unions (black woman/ white man).
Oddly enough, mixed black British women all but marry black men.
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@phoebeprunelle
Zadie Smith reminds me of Tracee Ellis Ross.
Oddly enough, mixed black British women all but marry black men.
I would say its about 50/50 and is most probably influenced by cultural upbrining.
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@Demerera,
If you say so.
My eperience with mixed black chicks from Britain is a “mixed” one. The ones I have befriended get along great with black women; yet they dump on black men. In their eyes they are either lazy, non monogamous, not good providers etc. If you notice, Smith’s novels never really feature black men as marriagable. There have been mixed black sons in her books that try to identify strongly with their black side, but in the end they wind up making very bad decisions thus reinforcing Smith’s belief about black men.
Although she doesn’t apply here in this post–because she has a white mum/black dad–Corinne Bailey Rae is another example. She had nothing positive to say about black men and women when she attended the Grammy’s. In fact, she tried to justify why she thought Britain was oh so better and more refined with its treatment of blacks. Interestingly enough, Smith talks openly about how bad racism is towards blacks in Britain, even though she seemingly prefers white men.
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Also, I seriously doubt that children born to black women/white men are “less” intelligent than black men/white women offspring.
Of course the study was done in the 1970’s still a time when the dismantling of Jim Crow was very very new and it was nothing more than racist propaganda.
Race does not determine a child’s ability to learn; what does is enviroment. The whole thing is quite silly!
If you notice; white man/black woman unions are usually the most threatening to whites. White people did that study.
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@phoebeprunelle
She had nothing positive to say about black men and women when she attended the Grammy’s. In fact, she tried to justify why she thought Britain was oh so better and more refined with its treatment of blacks.
Is her negativity down to personal experience or merely nurturing? Too many mixed race children I grew up with grew up without their black father playing a primary role in their life. This coupled with the white mother cussing their ‘Black B@stard’ father leads to a lot of identity issues and shame and an attempt to disassociate themselves with this negativity.
As adults we have choices as to whether we continue with this way of thinking or challenge it – some do, many dont which is terrible.
There is a singer called Pauline Black (Selecter) – a mixed race woman who was brought up by her adoptive white parents. She struggled (and from what I can see still struggles) to embrace her ‘black’ heritage though she does seem to try. She said that her mother said to her once that when she is courting she had better not bring no ‘darkies’ home!!!
This, IMO is one of the other aspects of being mixed race. Some WP can cope with you cos, after all, you are half like them, particularly if you dont ‘act’ black. This type of thinking is quite common in the UK in that there is much more acceptance if you are like this. In the U.S, I suspect that Corrine Bailey Rae was probably acutely aware that despite her racial mix, she would be considered as nothing but black. I certainly dont think this makes the UK better than the U.S, on the contrary, the same underlying racism is still there though manifesting itself in different forms
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@Demerera
<pIs her negativity down to personal experience or merely nurturing? Too many mixed race children I grew up with grew up without their black father playing a primary role in their life. This coupled with the white mother cussing their ‘Black B@stard’ father leads to a lot of identity issues and shame and an attempt to disassociate themselves with this negativity.
I can’t say for sure, I just know that her parents divorced when she was a pre-teen and then she was raised by her mom. She has made some subtle comments about her blackness that seem “shaky”. She married a white man and he was the one who introduced her to African American blues and soul musicians. Sadly, he died from a heroine overdose back in 09. She hasn’t remarried but I am sure if and when she does it won’t be to a man that resembles her father.
Zadie Smith–as I said before-is way more progressive minded. She identifies solely with being black. Her mom a Jamaican immigrant and her dad an Englishman divorced when she was a pre-teen also. She will speak agaisnt the injustices done to blacks, but I just do not see her being able to love black men romantically. If her mom preferred white men, then you could argue that was nuturing.
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Deandre Brackensick, Evan Ross, Josh Koscheck, Norval Marley. Don’t know many female ones though.
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Josh Koscheck, Andre Ward, DeAndre Brackensick, Jonah Alderman, Imani Coppola, Omar Wasow, Georgio Allentini, Pat Smear, Roy Campenella, Van Vicker, Evan Ross, Trajan Langdon, Eliot DeNiro, Brooklyn Sudano, Rebecca Walker, Taimak, Giancarlo Esposito, etc.
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Abagond:
Are the offspring of WM/BW really black? Oftentimes, the black father/no black father debate pops up in the convo. Can a self-identified mulatto consider themselves to be black when they don’t have a black father? What do you think, Abagond?
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Tyrone, do you think that a normal loving mother, who grew up in the USA while being without doubt black, will ever be able to see her own child as non-black? Even if said child is blond, and classified as white by the school system?
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Do other peoples opinions of classification of children from wm/bw or bm/ww matter? To me it sounds racist. People have said that they don’t belong with the white race because they are not all white…and others say they don’t belong with the black race because they are not all black…so can someone explain to me how that is not hurtful and racist?
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I would like to think that your survey was done completely and not just on celebrities. I with my white husband and my black self I have very intelligent children I have pushed them to exceed not just because of their blackness or there whiteness but because they have to compete in both cultures to strive and achieve and be great and do there best and then show the next generation How to get things done right in an intelligent way. This is why my children’s IQ is above the norm not because of the black inferior DNA. My children have done well basically because they pushed themselves to achieve an education even with there great blackness. As I have and my three black brothers a sister we have done great up there with white educational society perhaps you did not dig deep enough .My siblings and I all work the medical field or law enforcement as a matter fact I live on a Lake I live very well with black and white neighbors. Unknown on there smarts. 🙂 my mom and dad also pushed there five children to compete in this world we only speak two language’s this is the only issue I wish I had tried harder in this. Both my mon and dad are black!
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@teddy1975
The black mother/white father combo has always intrigued me from a distance. A blackwoman birthing a child with a man who isn’t black, yet, the child is self-identified as black by their black mother. Growing up, i would often hear other blackmen say that if the father isn’t black, the mulatto child can’t identify as black. A part of me agrees with that, and the other part disagrees. If a blackman fathers a mixed child, and the child is seen as black, regardless of complexion…Why can’t the same model exist for blackwomen who have mixed children? Blackwomen and blackmen are equal in every aspect, intellectually, spiritually, physically, and sexually. The DNA of sistas is just as strong as that of blackmen, yet, a lot of blackmen refuse to accept the notion of another man creating a mixed/black child. In our psyche as blackmen, only we can create a black child in the classical sense…all-black or half-black. This issue affects mulatto men who want to project black manhood to the world, but they’re father ain’t black…it’s hard to do. Mixed women aren’t affected by this dynamic in the same way…blackwomen can come out of multiple streams…asian, indian, persian, etc. Blackmen are race specific…black father/black mother.
Tyrone
Global Eros
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Yeaaaahhhhhhhhhhh Tyrone, you got a hard job ahead of you convincing some black folks of this.
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Also, i’m betting that if that IQ study had ANY (and i am just saying this for the sake of debate) validity to it. . .
This was at a time when–1974– black women had little affinity to a college education. Now since the mid 1990s to present, we have seen a boom of black women gaining advanced degrees. I am sure if the study was done today, the findings would be just the opposite–assuming that it had any validity in the first place.
I say just the opposite because i am connecting the dots to what Dr. Ivory Toldson has concluded in his black marriage studies–black females who have at least a post baccalaureate education are way more like to be married by the age of 35 than their white female counterparts who have only a high school diploma. So in 1974, i am sure that the majority of BW raising children with WM had only a high school diploma–WW raising children with BM at the time were more likely to have had either some college experience or an undergraduate degree–as i am sure college is where she had the opportunity to meet her black husband. Contrary to popular beliefs, all blacks who went to college did not attend HBCs–at least most of them didn’t so meeting a white spouse at an institution that was mostly white seemed the likely scenario.
Wonder why no sociologist or psychologist has redone this exact study for today’s standards of the new black woman??? Could it be because it would dispel the myth that monoracial black children are NOT intellectually inferior because lots of their mothers,whether single or married,have at least one degree or some higher ed experience?
Cheers! -)
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Elizabeth Atkins, Amanda Marshall, Imani Coppola, Shola Ama, Leila Arcieri, Faith Evans, Salli Richardson, Thandie Newton, Michael Michelle, Tammy Townsend, Jill Jones, Charli Baltimore, Rebecca Walker, Zadie Smith, Suzette Charles, Noemie Lenoir, Shakara Ledard.
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^Actually it’s Salli Richardson’s father who is African-American
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@Tyrone
Growing up, i would often hear other blackmen say that if the father isn’t black, the mulatto child can’t identify as black.
It depends on who is doing the rearing. For example, some mixed race children that I have known have not had a strong BM figure in their lives or else, as is traditional and expected, it is usually down to the WW to raise them. Whilst they have all the best intentions many are not able to appreciate the complexities that can and do arise being a child of a ‘mixed’ union. If the children of these unions are brought up in areas where there is little ethnic diversity some struggle with a ‘sense of self’ not seeing someone who ‘resemles’ them. All this, and societal assumptions prevail and can contribute into a mixed race person growing up and being uncertain as to where they ‘fit’ in. It is vital IMO for children of this union to have a link with both families and to understand, respect and appreciate all of their cultural heritage.
Why can’t the same model exist for blackwomen who have mixed children? Blackwomen and blackmen are equal in every aspect, intellectually, spiritually, physically, and sexually. The DNA of sistas is just as strong as that of blackmen, yet, a lot of blackmen refuse to accept the notion of another man creating a mixed/black child.
Trust me Tyrone, where I am located it doesnt matter about the parentage of the child, if a child is mixed race, they are mixed race regardless of whether the mother is black or not.
This really needs to be considered and thought out very carefully. How many of us BP in the here and now can say that we dont have some European ancestry in us. How many of us are ‘pure?’. I think that a significant majority will have anything from a little to nearly half or more ‘other’ in us yet we live, eat and breathe in the here and now as BP. I certainly would reject and resent somebody telling me that I am ‘less than’ due to my diverse racial background. I that when mixed race people acknowledge and want to be identified as black, this should be respected. After all, IMO it is true and right.
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There is no such thing as a mixed child. According to the bible, whatever you father and grandfather are that’s your nation (nationality) it doesn’t matter how you look. One’s race isn’t determined by their skin color, where they was born, their language, etc It’s determined by the seed of the father and his father.
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Sorry, Jonah Edelman
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Actually, delete josh koscheck and add marcus patrick.
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@James
There is no such thing as a mixed child………it doesn’t matter how you look. One’s race isn’t determined by their skin color, where they was born, their language, etc It’s determined by the seed of the father and his father.
You sure about that mate?
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Indeed, that means that about half the people called black in America are actually white. They can trace their paternal ancestry back to a particular white ancestor.
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@Jefe
Indeed, that means that about half the people called black in America are actually white. They can trace their paternal ancestry back to a particular white ancestor
I ‘get’ what you are saying on a ‘theoretical’ level however, lets get real. People worldwide couldnt care less what the parentage of individuals are – when they see a brown skinned child that kid is ‘half caste’ or ‘mixed race’ or to most others ‘black’.
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Not only that, there could be a light skinned individual who has two black parents, and be lighter than a mixed race child..this whole thing of pegging mixed race people gets silly…its much more about cultural upbringing….
I love being in one of the most mixed racial places in the world, Brazil, especialy as far as the Afro diaspora, the unbeleivible rainbow of colors is in serious motion here.
But, make no mistake, if you are born phenotype black in Brazil, you are subject to marginilisation
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You can have someone who is very phenotype black but can be extremly light, and you can have someone who is phenotype white, with thin lips and straight hair, but, have nut brown skin
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The world is literally a great big melting pot but in reality, some of the colours dont ‘mix’ without a great deal of antagonism.
Be proud of who you are and what you feel that represents but dont let it define you in the eyes of others is what I say. We are all individuals after all
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Matteo Ferrari, Nestoras Kommatos, Sait Sokmen, Jacques Riparelli, Zahra Bani, Dacia Valent, Saba anglana, Richard Auguste Morse, Sienna Marrie, Ross Naess, Jacky Terrasson, etc.
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add Mark Butcher
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Of course, I do not follow this definition. It was just a rhetorical response to the prior poster.
People don’t pay much attention to which of your parents are what. If you have a white paternal great-grandfather, but are 15/16 of sub-saharan african descent, I don’t think many will classify you as white.
EXCEPTIONS: Places like Singapore, or maybe Malaysia, which classify you according to paternal ancestry. So, the individual phenotype does not necessarily match an individual’s racial classification. Someone who is 1/8 Indian on their paternal grandfather’s side will still be classified as Indian even if they are 7/8 Chinese (and pass socially as Chinese), or say, 1/4 Chinese, 3/8 European and 1/4 Malay or Bugis.
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Nigel De Jong, Smokey Fontaine, Amber Rose, Wolfgang Puck’s children, Paul Walls children, Justin Chambers children, Dennis Rodman’s daughter, Mick Jagger’s daughter Karis, Connor Cruise, Dona Mills daughter, Sofoklis Schortsanitis, etc.
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^^^Connor Cruise??? Has Tom finally admitted that ‘adoptee’ Connor is actually his biological son?
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Connor Cruise?
Dont think I have even seen the child – who is the mother or is that a daft question?
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@Bulanik
So, is there some sort of background to people saying that he is Tom’s biological son?
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@Bulanik
No clue. I’ve never been interested in T. Cruise
Ditto. Never got why the girls swooned over him either when I was at school.
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Bulanik,
I too was wondering if Tom had owned up to Connor being his biological son, as commenter Mark h had included Connor Cruise in a list of mixed-race children of celebrities. Connor was adopted by Cruise, so, unless one knows who the boy’s biological parents are (regardless as to whether the genetic father is Tom Cruise or some other man), it can’t be honestly stated that one of the parents is white.
I’ve long believed that Connor is either Tom’s son or the son of one his close relatives. Not only does Tom seem to dote on the boy (but not on the white girl who he and Nicole adopted at the same time as Connor — this girl seems to stay out of sight), but he and Connor have similar mannerisms and, even more telling, a very similar carriage and gait.
Also, white celebrities adopting older Black kids (or any Black child) wasn’t in vogue when Tom and Nicole Kidman suddenly appeared with Connor in tow. I believe that’s why he adopted the white girl, who has since laid low — so that he would simply look like a good samaratin who adopted two kids.
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@Demerera
The reason i mentioned the black father/non-black father issue is because of identity. A lot of blackmen that i have met over the years use the “My Child Is Black” mantra to excuse their racial insecurity, as it relates to blackwomen. The biracial child becomes a security blanket for their black fathers. On the flip side, blackwomen who birth the offspring of whitemen are told that they can’t apply the same standards to their mixed children. Blackman is the daddy, they’re black…Blackwoman is the mommy, they’re biracial, mixed, white, etc. I would assume that most sistas who have mixed children don’t want them to be in conflict with their black side, it’s a tough issue to grapple. I agree with James to a certain extent, looking at it from a common sense point of view…if a whiteman provides the seed, the child is white by definition. The same goes for blackmen and asian men. All of this may be true, but, blackwomen don’t see themselves as below blackmen as other women do with their men. In the mind of a sista, her mixed child is equally black or more because they came out of a blackwoman’s belly, which is true. As blackmen, we run away from this universal truth…brothas provide the seed, but a blackwoman nurtures it. Honestly, i don’t think the average black female will ever go along with the idea of their mixed children not being black because the father is not. At the same time, blackmen will never give other men the pleasure of thinking they can create a “black” child in the same way…blackmen are too arrogant to support that line of thinking. The bottomline…this argument is about population, does mixing hurt the black race, or, does it add to the black race? This is the fundamental question…Blackness is the ultimate aim & objective of the human experience. It’s as simple as that sista.
Tyrone
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@Tyrone#
I agree with James to a certain extent, looking at it from a common sense point of view…if a whiteman provides the seed, the child is white by definition. The same goes for blackmen and asian men.
With respect, I disagree entirely. Not just in terms of how they are defined in the world i.e. if a child of this racial heritage i.e. White father, black mother, goes anywhere in the world, this is not going to be a question they are asked. They will be judged primarily on the hue of their skin initially. We can all look at an individual and think they look racially ambiguous however, if they assert they are a certain ethnicity/race, we have to respect that. Colonial rule has ensured that most BP have racial ad-mixture in their genes. We come in a spectrum of beautiful shades and hues and I do not think that anyone should be deemed ‘any less black’ because their admixture from way back has become more apparent in the here and now making them potentially appear racially ambiguous.
In the mind of a sista, her mixed child is equally black or more because they came out of a blackwoman’s belly, which is true.
Too damn right. I don’t think that ‘white’ should be the default race automatically. In order for a person to embrace themselves as a ‘whole’ individual, they should be exposed to ALL of their heritage. This is the only way to bring forth a balanced person IMO.
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Parts of your comment remind me of the old Homunculus theory of sexual reproduction.
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i didn’t know that Connor was adopted i just guessed because he looked biracial.
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@Bulanik
Could I step away from the BW + WM couple for a moment – Jefe raises the point about parts of Asia in culture where the father determines the identity of the child, regardless. That is my experience. I have also heard some men of Islamic faith speak in this way as well (Asian Muslims usually).
I do not have much direct experience of this – certainly not in a way that suggests a ‘positive’ conclusion so I concede that my statement was perhaps too generic.
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Interesting. Has anyone considered that, if the race of the father takes precedence, or should take precedence, then quite a few Black American men are actually white, due to their paternal male ancestors descending from a white male slaveholder.
A Y-DNA test for Black American men might reveal their true “race” in such a case.
LOL
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@Bulanik
His parents were both born in Jamaica, and apparently of African descent. When his test came back it was revealed his ancestor was….German.
I am not surprised. In fact, I have several friends who also have this background.
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@Tyrone,
Where i grew up it was quite the opposite. The black women who married white men (which were few), both made an effort to raise their kids as black. The black men who married white women (which was few as well) tended to raise their kids as “mixed”…this was like the mid 1980’s and i remember a particular Ethiopian man/white British woman couple who had two daughters and those girls always made it a point to tell everyone how “mixed” they were. It was really more of their mother i think who pushed this… they ended up marrying white men.
A woman is always going to make sure her kids get the side that is closet to her–if that makes sense– and white women are no different.
If black women who have children with white men stress the importance and dominance of black in her family–surely white women who have children with black men will push whiteness. The only problem here is that most often (not in every single case of course), no matter which coupling of IRR–the kids will turn out to be brown/black babies and in a racist world–labeling kids as “mixed”–especially mixed with “whiteness” is further upholding “whiteness”.
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LOL…i agree.
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@Demerera
Should black be the default race even if the father is not black? It depends on the sista in question. Some sistas have been hurt by blackmen verbally, physically, sexually…it will be hard for them to want their mixed children to embrace their white fathers as pseudo-blackmen. Other sistas want mixed babies because of their physical features. Then again, some sistas like vanilla instead of chocolate. If a blackwoman loves blackmen, more often than not, she wants her mixed/black children to see themselves as black. She may be in love with another, but, she doesn’t want to undercut blackmen at the same time by pushing her offspring into the arms of white folk. I was watching TVOne a few months ago, and came upon a townhall that was organized by Al Sharpton, which discussed the Treyvon Martin case and other examples of black males gunned down by white cops or other white males. Surprisingly, a whiteman asked one of the guests on the stage a question about encouraging blackmen to take care of their women and kids…the whiteman was married to a beautiful blackwoman, his words, and they were the parents of a daughter. This was the first time i had ever seen a whiteman do something like that, it’s stuck in my mind since. Blackmen who have a deep love for blackwomen will always be conflicted about this. We don’t want sistas to be with them(whitemen), but, we can’t tell a blackwoman she can’t at the same time. Yes, blackwomen are having sexual relations with whitemen, that’s a given. That aspect of the issue is set in stone, can’t do anything about it. The problem for blackwomen, will the vast majority of blackmen accept their mixed kids as black? If not, sistas have a problem on their hand. They don’t have a brotha in their bed, number two, their golden babies aren’t so golden. Again, black identity is the #1 concern of blackmen, not the fact that another man is enjoying “Brown Sugar” so to speak. As african people, mixing is a reality, but we don’t wanna destroy a good thing at the same time, which is the contradiction of “The Swirl.” Mixing is akin to recycling…black, half-black, black, half-black, and so forth. In order for mixing to make sense, the child has to be black in DNA and color, otherwise, it’s wasted blackness. Halle Berry is a mulatto, she birthed a daughter with a whiteman…she claims her as black, he says white. Halle’s confusion about the race of her daughter is what we don’t want as a race. Again, future generations of black women and men should look like their ancestors. Meaning, the phenotype should be consistent throughout the bloodlines, regardless of what part of the globe they hail from. Demerera, it’s important that blackwomen have a long-term view about this issue instead of short-term? None of us should put ourselves above the best interests of the race…Period! Blackness is greater than all of us, we pass it on for infinity and beyond…Never Forget That!!!
Tyrone
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@Phoebe
Black people who enter into IR relationships need to understand that their half-black children are black. They may not be 100% black or 80% black, but they’re colored just the same. Black is the default race by design, all human beings hail from Africa, which is why mixed children are “Coloreds” as was the case with Creoles in Lousiana. Phoebe, i appreciate you sista…Mean It! Yes, Tyrone argues both sides of an argument, in case you noticed.
Tyrone
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@Bulanik
If a blackwoman loves herself and her people, she wants them to do the same. Other men may want to claim the children, but the brown/caramel skin always gets in the way. No matter how much we mix as a race, God wants us to stay the same…Black & Brown! Bulanik, i have more to say on this topic, stay sweet sista!!!
Tyrone
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Cloe Mortaud, Ada Smith, Henry Ossawa Smith.
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@Tyrone.
Tyrone: In order for mixing to make sense, the child has to be black in DNA and color, otherwise, it’s wasted blackness.
I don’t understand why it is necessary to keep the race “pure” so to speak when it is already diluted. People mix eventually because it seems to be good for the human race at some point. Diversified genes, whether mixed with white, black, East Asian, Indian, Latin or otherwise are arguably a good thing in the long run. Even 2 “Black” people with diversified genes (one with more West African ancestry and one with more East, and so on) having children together or 2 similarly diversified “White” people or “Asian” people doing the same tends to produce healthier offspring since certain immunities might be passed on from one parent that are lacking in the other, and other undesirable traits that one parent may have will have a much higher chance of being cancelled out since half their DNA has traits that oppose the less desirable ones. Again, I am talking about relationships where both people either are of a different race or are both Black, White, etc but have genetically diverse DNA.
I don’t think it should matter if people decide to date within their race or venture out of it. Also, some people are literally just attracted to members of other races more so than their own. I am a young black female, and tend to find beautiful black women quite stunning, but am not as attracted to black men (usually). Do I have anything against black men? Of course not. My father is mostly black and my brothers are black and I love them all. But I can’t help who I find the most attractive to be with on a non-platonic level. I tend to be attracted to White, Asian, Latin, etc men. I like to be the darker-skinned one in the relationship 🙂 and I like a contrast in features as well, even though my features are a bit “different” (which I assume means different for black people) according to quite a few black and white people over the years. I personally think they aren’t that different, but it’s what they see, not me.
I accept that my children will almost certainly be mixed considering my dating history. And I don’t find that to be “wasted” anything. On one hand, I understand people wanting to preserve a race out of a strong desire to preserve the culture of one’s people. On the other hand, however, I feel that to actively avoid mixing the races is silly and simply provides fertile soil for the idea that this race or that race is “less desirable” and/or “below us” so we shouldn’t mate with them. In fact, it seems that actively avoiding race mixing is worse than the opposite for feeding these ideas. There are whole races of people today who are a direct result of 2 or more races mixing on a large scale.
Tyrone: Black people who enter into IR relationships need to understand that their half-black children are black.
No. They are mixed. And I do not think it is at all right to tell a child (on a not so subconscious level) that you are denying one of their parents who they probably love. And that is exactly what you are doing when you tell them that they are just black when they are clearly mixed. They have as much black blood as white blood in their veins, and to ignore that confuses and hurts the child who is a product of an interracial union. I do think the child should be aware that, because of the general mentality on race in this country, if they look more one race than the other, more people will see them as such or as simply “different” or “exotic”. That way they are not as taken aback if someone says something classifying them that way. But to actively make them struggle with their racially rich identity? I don’t think it can possibly be healthy. And who is someone else to tell my kid that their father doesn’t count? How is that even remotely okay to say to anyone’s kid, including your own if they are mixed as well?
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@Bulanik
Whether the father is black/non-black, the child is biracial. Having a black father makes it easier for a mulatto to align themselves with the black side of the family more or less. As to blackwomen, it’s a mixed-bag. Most men would say that the father’s ancestry is the default race, because, a woman can’t birth a child without a man’s seed. If the daddy is white and mommy is black, he’s gonna see the child as an extension of himself. Yes, blackwomen can say that the child is black, but it’s harder for them to do that. I have to express this point in explicit terms…women receive it, men give it. As to muslim men claiming a mixed child as their own regardless of what the mother says, Why are we shocked by that? In muslim culture, women are barefoot and pregnant, and they should love it. This is the mindset of a lot of muslim men. I argue both points of view to make sense of inter-racial relationships. Some folk may say that i’m being two-faced about this and that. When black folk are involved in IR relationships, the stakes are much higher. A lot of ish is involved Bulanik, it’s not just one thing that defines “The Swirl” so to speak.
Tyrone
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What a breath of fresh air you are , Ashley, I really dig that contrast thing too….
Yeah, if people arnt bi racial, they really dont get it..lets face it, bi racial kids run the risk of not being accepted by anyone…
But, Im in awe of watching my son deal with his tri racial and bi national identities , there is a space where I am left behind and he is in his own world discovering who he is and how he is veiwed and accepted by the world around him…he doesnt need me in lots of ways, and , he knows I am there for him in anyway he needs
And woe to the person who thinks that can define him and peg him, he will be all in their face if they think they can dictate who he is or what he should feel or identify with
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@Ashley
Yes, black people in the Americas are already mixed. Most intelligent people are aware of that. Doesn’t justify self-hatred in black folk at the same time. Blacks who support mixing love to quote that fact, as if the rape of blackwomen was a good thing…Strange! You say that you’re not attracted to blackmen, that’s strange to me Ashley? If i said i didn’t like blackwomen, i would be called all kinds of dirty names. If it’s not okay for brothas to do it, the same applies to sistas as well. You have ownership over your body, you can sex as many whitemen as want, but don’t say you love being a black at the same time, just saying. If you think that black folk should have a mixture of features…be woman enuf to admit that sista. You’re one of those sistas who wants a mixed baby because of how the child looks in comparison to a black child with 2 black parents. Ashley, if you’re gonna approach it from that perspective, don’t complain when your mixed child is rejected by black people. A lot of black people in mixed relationships say the same ish, but, are quick to claim their child as black when it’s to their benefit. Again, mixing is a double-edged sword…mixing dilutes the black race over the course of time if it’s allowed to get out of control. Mixing is a component of blackness, but, it can never overtake authentic blackness. If so, there will be no black race to fight over. Puerto-Ricans are a vivid example of why unlimited mixing is bad for black people. They look nothing like their african ancestors, and thus, have been rejected by other blacks. They spend a lot of time trying to be what they didn’t want to be…Black!!!
Tyrone
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What? Did I hear that about Puerto Ricans?
Tyrone……Puerto Ricans are marvelous, thank God for them, New York wouldnt be the same without them…there are some imposibly fine Puerto Rican women , too
You got to be kidding…and you are in Florida , with all those wonderful Cubans…those women are fine too…Miami would be dead with out them….
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@B.R.:
Aw, Thanks :-). And I definitely agree: Who is someone else to tell him what he should identify with just because they want to put him in a box? Good for you for raising a son who is strong-minded enough to realize that they don’t have that power.
@Tyrone:
I really shouldn’t respond seeing as you clearly are just taking certain parts of my comment out of context to make a point that is flimsy at best, but I guess I can’t resist :-). It is not self-hatred to have a general preference for something physically in a person with whom you are romantically involved. Is it wrong for a brunette man to prefer blondes? Must he ONLY be attracted to brunette women because he is not blonde? Is he not allowed to date someone with light hair lest he be called a self-hater? He may occasionally be very attracted to a brunette woman, but he still tends to prefer blondes. Is that a criminal offense Tyrone? Why does the self-hater title only seem to apply when the skin is what is different? If my general preference upsets you, I suggest learning to come to grips with the fact that not every black woman will find you attractive. I am sure that there are plenty who will, and those are the ones you might consider concerning yourself with. I don’t concern myself with men who don’t like black women, short women, petite women, women who don’t regularly watch football, etc. because it is a wasted effort. NO one is appealing to everyone. Also, my specific quote was that I “am not as attracted to black men (USUALLY)” meaning that, on occasion, I am very attracted to a black man. But USUALLY I am not. That is not a bad thing, and I really shouldn’t have to justify it to you any more than I should have to justify why I prefer rocky road ice cream to black walnut. I just do.
As for the whole rape situation, I strangely don’t recall suggesting that rape, as opposed to consensual sex between two adults who happen to be different races, is somehow beneficial. In fact, do not believe that I mentioned rape at all in my previous comment. Well, imagine that.
As for what kind of women you, or any other man who is not MY man likes, it is none of my business. You can scream that you don’t like black women at the top of your lungs on top of the empire state, and I would look at you, laugh, take a video, and send it to my friends with the caption “Look at that crazy fool!” And then go back to the waiting arms of MY man who loves me physically, and have no concern for you or your preferences because, as I said, it is none of my business what turns you on unless we are getting it on :-). I never understood why people care. So, you and other brothas can say it if you want, and you will hear no complaints from this woman.
Also, if you read my comment, I said I liked not JUST white men. Yet they are the only ones you allude to in your comment which is not surprising considering your earlier posts.
I do not think that any people, black or otherwise, SHOULD have or not have a mixture of features. Beautiful is beautiful regardless. And, if you recall, I also said that I do not think that it should matter if people want to date within or outside of their race. Therefore, I have no problem with 2black people dating and getting married and having beautiful brown babies. You know why? It doesn’t concern me what they do in their lives or in their bedroom. Oh, shocking, I know. But it really doesn’t.
I would never claim my child as black if they were not fully so. I would always claim him/her as bi/tri/etc/racial, seeing as I am not the only factor in their existence and I would find it personally disrespectful to the father of my child (not to mention confusing to my child) to suggest otherwise or that my genetics are more important in our children than his. So these so-called mothers that are “quick to claim their child as black when it’s to their benefit” have nothing o do with the way that I feel about it. And, “don’t complain when your mixed child is rejected by black people”? I think the main people who they might feel “rejected” by would be people who think like you. And if you are proud of that, then that is sad to me. It is no better for a black person to reject a half-black person than it was for white people to reject Black and Chinese people in the history of this country.
And you also don’t like Puerto Ricans now because of their ancestry?!? Wow. I have no words for that, except to say that you are right B.R.
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Once again , Ashley , great points !!
Its really funny how some people just dont get that differant people have differant attractions and it doenst end up in self hate or guilt.
I think like you in the sence that, I am more atracted to women of color, but, I dont hate myself or “white people”, or feel guilt or any of the things I see when people start psycho analysing why people make choices they do…
That is why the “Fanon” thread that was on here was a turn off to me, I felt immediatly that he was over psycho analysing why a light skinned woman would only be with white men….I just think you cant make a generalisation about all people based on one case of a person.
And, Tyrone doesnt know Puerto Ricans, there are very black Puerto Ricans and their culture is very plugged into Afro Diasporic concepts.
My bi racial half Brazilian son is so plugged into his Afro diasporic roots , more so than a lot of people who would deny him those roots
Ashley, just keep doing what you do , and thinking and speaking your mind like you do….and know there are lots of people who think like you do , too …
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Going off your arguments B.R. and Ashley, then we ALL should say we are mixed with something–as most human beings are, but i think i get Tyrone’s angling….
Because most “biracial” kids; especially those with a white parent and black parent tend to be brown they are more likely to self identify as black. If you can point to me an abundant number or examples of children of black/white coupling who look “white” according to phenotype–then i could readily agree with you. As a matter of fact, all my life, i have seen children of black/white marriages turn out browner than me and both my mother and father are black.
“Biracial” kids–no matter how much people protest–when they are brown there is no where in the world they can go and be recognized and treated as “white”…as much as we want to deny it, it is simply the truth.
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@Ashley
@B.R.
The problem that i have with both of your arguments, is that, most blacks who are in IR relationships are not gonna keep it 100. The black/non-black dynamic isn’t about 2 people of different colors having sex, it’s about the kids people. This is the crux of the issue. Ashley and B.R., if the 2 of you are as colorblind as you claim, don’t identify your caramel babies as black, and the same goes for blackmen. I don’t think the vast majority of blacks in mixed relationships can be that disciplined to stick to their guns. Don’t use the One Drop Rule as a scapegoat sistas. Ashley, i have a bone to pick with you sista. You say that blackmen are not attractive to you, your logic is flawed. It’s not normal for a black man or woman to dislike blackness. Yes, some sistas and brothas are not attractive. However, the vast majority of black people that i see on a daily basis are good looking people by and large. You really think that whitemen and asian men are a notch above the average brotha, you really believe that bs Ashley? Miss B.R., you’re a fan of puerto-ricans…Interesting? It explains your mode of racial thinking. Puerto-Ricans and other spanish blacks run away from blackness…Self-Hatred! The same group of so-called blacks will swear up and down that they’re not black, but, when it’s about the money and fame, all of a sudden they’re black and proud…Ironic! BR, don’t make lame excuses for them, you know they’re trifling in every way. Black folk have no excuse for hating their color, you know that. I can apply the same rule to them as to you and Ashley…if 2 black parents aren’t in the picture, there is no blackness. Having a non-black father and a black mother is not a black family, i’m using your logic Ashley. Hypothetically speaking, most so-called boricuas ain’t black anyway, ain’t no black daddy to speak of…Ditto! Ashley and B.R., don’t insult intelligent people sistas. Ya’ll support “The Swirl” because you know that you have the upper-hand in the relationship, you can jump ship at any time, if you wanna hook up with a brotha again, he’s not gonna reject you because your caramel babies are dark enuf to not offend his racial sensibilities. Have fun with the “Substitute Brothas” Ashley and BR. Ya’ll make me laugh.
Tyrone
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@phoebeprunelle
This is the last post i’m gonna make on this topic. Black is black, biracial is biracial. They’re not obligated to love black people, and the same goes for black people. Biracial folk choose to be black, it can’t be forced upon them by parents, society, black folk, etc. As black people, we need to focus on real black people, and stop trying to cover up all the racial baggage that we deal with by putting “Mixed Chicks” like Halle Berry and other women front and center to present a happy face to society. If mulattos want to be black, we’ll gladly accept them into the family. If not, the globe don’t stop spinning either way…we can survive without them as well. Inter-racial should always be organic in nature, not planned. Inter-racial is about sexual variety and fun, not self-hatred. Black people enjoy mixing because we know we can come back home when it’s all said and done. Being able to swerve back and forth is what it’s about. Being sexually attracted to other races is normal. I find mixed whitewomen who look like Kim K very attractive, i like native-american, east-indian, and south-asian women as well. At the same time, i love my black sisters deeply, and always will. Being black doesn’t mean you can’t sample other flavors, inter-racial in and of itself is a beautiful thing…black people match with everybody in the same way the color black matches with every other color in your closet. Again, black folk can enjoy other flavors as much as they want, but, we love us the most…Bottomline! I wanna say this to blackmen specifically, stop playing bs games with women, all women. A blackwoman birthed you, you’re supposed to love your black sisters…whitewomen and asian women are not gonna bite you, there is no need to fear them…treat all women like the queens that they are…loving blackwomen is loving all women, because, all women love blackmen just as much…appreciate black manhood, god blessed us more than the others…love women, respect them, protect them, hug them, kiss them, make love to them…blackmen are feminists and proud to be…women are the source of our happiness…Always!!!
Tyrone
Black Eros + Dark Eros = Global Eros
Black Sexuality On A Higher Level
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Tyrone, I have to clarify, I am a white male American…with a black Brazilian wife
Yes, I would never call our selves a black family, we are an integrated family, bi racial, bi national..actualy tri racial since my wife has native American also, which is actualy also heavily inside the Puerto Rican mix.
I dont know where you got your impresion of Puerto Ricans, but, after living in New York 8 years a while back, it doesnt ring true for me. And I do know they are very connected to Afro diasporic roots, a lot that comes from Cuba, to be sure…
One thing I want to clarify, I never would bash black men, or think they are not good for black women , I would never do that in any way. But, i seriously understand Ashleys feeling that she has attractions for all types of men, and support her feelings, since Im working the same way in an opisite direction..and I dont feel I hate whites or feel guilty..
As far as my son and his awareness of what he is ? I can tell you he is quite capable of knowing who he is and what his various roots he has a total right to know…and he is very plugged into his Afro diasporic roots
Its funny, i remember when black Americans knew that by accepting the rainbow of colors that is the black race, they knew that they were bringing in many more people to just enhance the choices and range of posibilities, that were discriminated against by the white man anyway…somewhere along the way, a bi racial child isnt accepted anymore by some individuals in the black community…maybe it was the place I lived and how the individuals in that black community conducted themselves….I had a great childhood and adolescance in that community (as a white person that humbly was accepted into that community, a large one by the way not just a small community)
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@B.R.
True, the psycho analyzing and the “something must be wrong within yourself” does get old. But some people never care to get that they are not the race police, and no one is obligated to make themselves like what they think they should like. Ah well. Thank you, and I will keep doing what I do as well. Much Love to you and your fam :-).
@Tyrone:
Tyrone: ” Ashley, i have a bone to pick with you sista. You say that blackmen are not attractive to you, your logic is flawed. It’s not normal for a black man or woman to dislike blackness.”
It is not logical who we do and do not find attractive. It is a matter of preference.
Tyrone: “Inter-racial is about sexual variety and fun, not self-hatred. Black people enjoy mixing because we know we can come back home when it’s all said and done.”
I don’t agree with using people for a sexual novelty just because with no intention of anything serious with them and no intention on telling them that.
Tyrone: “Ashley and B.R., if the 2 of you are as colorblind as you claim, don’t identify your caramel babies as black.”
Again, I don’t know whose argument you are talking about, but neither of us did this. I specifically said that, were they more than one race, I would identify them as bi/tri/etc.racial, depending on the race of their father.
Also, I agree with B.R. in that neither of us is bashing Black men or saying that Black women shouldn’t be with them. In fact, I do believe I stated very clearly that I don’t have any problem with that.
phoebeprunelle: ‘“Biracial” kids–no matter how much people protest–when they are brown there is no where in the world they can go and be recognized and treated as “white”…as much as we want to deny it, it is simply the truth.”
I wouldn’t expect them to be recognized as white because they are not. They are biracial and I would always claim them as such, though they, of course, could claim themselves as whatever they like. Some have skin tones that look closer to white like Jennifer Beals and Maya Rudolph (who looks more Jewish to me), and some look closer to black in tone like Halle Berry and Lenny Kravitz.
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@Bulanik,
I see you have been wanting to pick a *net fight* for awhile now, so here goes,
i will say it again; a dislike of brown and black exists in the world and a need to claim anything other than that seems to be prevalent…claiming brown and black kids are “biracial” is a way for parents to not really deal with the fact their kids can’t have and easy entrance into “white” acceptance..
Dr. Welsing says this…and so does Dr. Michael Bradley and others; this is simply not something that Phoebeprunelle is saying–as a matter of fact these are people who have done extensive research in this for years…
And you are right; it is a personal choice and someone’s business….but in my experience, kids who are labeled and raised “biracial” are those who grow up with very poor self-esteem, confusion and feelings of isolation–but i guess “race” and “color” have nothing to do with it? Whereas children who have a strong “racial” identity–not flip flopping and riding the fence, be they white, black, or Asian seem to be mentally healthier…and i daresay happier.
I have seen time and time again among the kids i have taught and the few “biracial” i grew up with.
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Riggghhhhttt….they both look quite brown to me.
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@Bulanik,
Trust me, i’m not interested in what is in your skull..
Just the post at hand.
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Lol, okay whatever…
For me its just debating..really.
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It’s funny how Hollywood is flooding the TV screen and the Movie screen with Bi-racials and calling them “Black”. People need to speak up and say NO! these people are Bi-racial and certainly NOT Black. Hollywood, put some real Black folks in your films, dammit!
But that’s what happens when we “one drop” in our own communities… no Ice Cube, just Vanilla Ice.
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I raised my son in Brazil precisly because I didnt want him to deal with all the flak from all sides about who he is and what he should be…there are so many mixed people in Brazil that it isnt an issue ( not that there isnt huge amounts of distintive phenotype black and white , Brazil is an enormous place)…He isnt perceived as white , though, in Brazil, he is moreno (Brazil has many differant words for the various mixtures)…He actualy gets more weird stuff for having an American name
I find he gains great strength from having three cultures to draw from ( he has native American from Brazil , it is South America) , and, identify with..yet, he knows there are these kind of judgements out in the world that would try to peg him, and, he can be angry about that
Im not sure how it would have been for him growing up in America, I think there are centers like South Beach and New York , where there is a lot of people from mixed backgrounds because of the Caribean and South American influences in those places, that would make too much flak about his background some very minimal side track, because there are so many people mixed also…but, I honestly dont know , he isnt hispanic so he might not be accepted in those circles, but, one thing Ive found anywhere, there is always the grey area, with lots of people willing to be there, too….I love that I raised him in Brazil….
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by the way, being mixed isnt an issue for my son, but discrimination because he is a moreno is
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No sorry, its a crime to be a real Black person.
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Me: “Some have skin tones that look closer to white like Jennifer Beals and Maya Rudolph”
Phoebeprunelle: “Riggghhhhttt….they both look quite brown to me.”
I tested that theory, and asked people who didn’t know that they were bi-racial what they thought their race was. Jennifer Beals generally got either just straight white or Italian, while Maya Rudolph was labeled mainly as Jewish. Literally only one person guessed that either one of them was bi-racial (Jennifer Beals), but she still got Maya wrong. And in “The L Word” series, my boyfriend didn’t know by looking at her (JB) that she wasn’t simply a darker-skinned white person. He guessed Italian. And I didn’t say they looked white to me. I said they looked closer to white in anyone’s eyes than would Halle Berry or Lenny Kravitz.. Or the president. And because of the racial mixing in this country, there are “white” people with certain features that are normally found in other races, but they are still white enough down the line that people see a white person when they look at them. It is not always easy to tell if someone is half and half, or just black or just white or some other race or mixture entirely. One girl I knew years ago, was paler than either of those first 2examples with red hair and grey eyes and her mother was a black woman. Her and her mother were both stunning, and looked very much alike standing next to one another, but if people didn’t know her mother, they tended not to realize that she was half black. She told me that she threw a drink in some drunk racist white man’s face at a club one night who made a derogatory comment about black people while hitting on her not realizing that she was only half white. People come in so many shades that there is really no way to know anymore.
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Phoebeprunelle: “And you are right; it is a personal choice and someone’s business….but in my experience, kids who are labeled and raised “biracial” are those who grow up with very poor self-esteem, confusion and feelings of isolation–but i guess “race” and “color” have nothing to do with it? Whereas children who have a strong “racial” identity–not flip flopping and riding the fence, be they white, black, or Asian seem to be mentally healthier…and i daresay happier.”
I have seen kids who fall into that trap as well, but I have also seen the opposite. It seems to depend on how well the parents school their children on how to have a strong inner core. And I do think that is especially important for kids with two parents of different racial backgrounds. However, if their parents try to fool themselves that race will not affect their bi-racial child just because they don’t want it to and simply ignore it rather than talking about it at some point, then yes, I do think it puts the kid at higher risk for being one of those kids you are talking about. I think that parents of bi or multi-racial children should let their kids know how different people will view them, explain why certain things might be said, etc, so that the child is prepared for it. Those parents should also let their kid know that despite what those people say, s/he is who s/he is and does not have to conform to what they think s/he should be, thus helping them to develop that strong inner core that will serve them well. A child should have a strong identity instilled in them with the help of their parents regardless of race though. You have poor self-esteem if it is not instilled in you at home no matter what race you or your parents are. If you are raised in a stable home environment with parents who make sure you develop well, you generally become an open, optimistic, mentally healthy person. And optimistic, mentally healthy people make friends if they are one race like Will Smith, or 7(?) races like Adriana Lima (I read 7races one place and 4 in another, so I am not sure), because people want to be near them.
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Trevor Noah
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I agree , Ashley.
My son is grounded because he hasnt been manipulated to beleive one side of his genetic background is superior to another.
And, as a bi-racial, or tri racial family, we really arnt walking around looking to be accepted by anyone. If someone doesnt want to accept my son’s black side, that is their hang-up, because he is more aware of black culture (except in literature, we are not a litarary family, even though my father was a writer, how do you like that?) than many people with two black parents
Yet, he has a very well honed antenna if he is in a situation where people might discriminate against him for exactly who he is, like what could and does happen in a more white community, where the police are keeping more of an eye on him than normal.
I do find it perplexing that some people in the black community dont welcome bi racial people with one black parent.
If Halle Berry was a man, you can beleive he would be subjected to all the discrimination society can dish up with its racism.
If people dont really know, half the time they would have no idea if a person was biracial or not, since the black community is a rainbow of color anyway….perplexing…
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@Ashley,
Somehow, i never thought Jennifer Beals or Maya Rudolph was anything other than women of color. They just have that brownish tinge–and Rudolph’s hair looks rather kinky at times–sans those horrible wigs she donned on SNL–and the voice–when she’s doing “black” characters, she has it down.
Now one person who did confuse me was Jessica Ennis–that is until i saw pictures of her father, then i knew she wasn’t “white”…
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I think Ira Newble is a match.
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Hi don’t know these two women – Jennifer Beale and Maya Rudolph so I googled them. Maya Rudolph definitely looks like a woman of colour (mixed race) but I would have thought Jennifer Beale is hispanic. Not italian or any other European.
I agree with an earlier comment from Phoebe with regards to the impact of a confused identity on mixed race children. I too have found that selling mixed race children the idea that they belong to both worlds and can straddle the fence is very unhelpful to them. If only the world did not see colour. Unfortunately, we do not live in a utopia and race is a big issue across the world. I personally see no point in telling a child they belong to both world when in reality they will (IN GENERAL) most certainly be rejected by one. The shock and confusion that will ensue are heartbreaking.
By all means let the child know they are dual heritage and help them celebrate that. However, let’s not kid them and ourselves in believing that they belong to both worlds.
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Pete Wentz
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whoops take off pete wentz
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Peter kortenhoven, B5, Rainbow Sun Franks, Micaela Reis, Ida Ljungqvist, Croonquist, Marcus Olsson, Martin Olsson, Jessica Olsson.
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King F.A.M.E.
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@Phoebeprunelle:
I agree. Jessica Ennis is not someone I would have thought was half black. She looks very racially ambiguous to me.
Bulanik: What do the professionals who work with these children and families say? Indications point in the direction that multiracial children forced to choose a single-race identity tend to suffer from this inauthentic expression of self.
The American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry says:
* “Recent research has shown that multiracial children do not differ from other children in self-esteem, comfort with themselves, or number of psychiatric problems. Also, they tend to be high achievers with a strong sense of self and tolerance of diversity.”
* “Research has shown that children with a true multiracial or multicultural identity generally grow up to be happier than multiracial children who grow up with a “single-race” identity.”
That’s what it seemed like to me also. Kids who tried to hard to be just white or just black when they were clearly both seemed to have the hardest time internally. Kids who just hung out with anyone, however, and didn’t try to be anyone but themselves (or act drastically different in front of one group of people than with another) seemed pretty unaffected and more tolerant if anything, and not just more racially tolerant.
Maureen: “I too have found that selling mixed race children the idea that they belong to both worlds and can straddle the fence is very unhelpful to them. If only the world did not see colour. Unfortunately, we do not live in a utopia and race is a big issue across the world. I personally see no point in telling a child they belong to both world when in reality they will (IN GENERAL) most certainly be rejected by one. The shock and confusion that will ensue are heartbreaking.
By all means let the child know they are dual heritage and help them celebrate that. However, let’s not kid them and ourselves in believing that they belong to both worlds.”
I also feel like a child should celebrate their dual heritage. And of course there will be people who will not accept them. But for everyone who doesn’t there will be someone else who will. There are always people who won’t accept you because you are White, Black, Asian, a woman, honest, dishonest, etc. They just can’t concern themselves with people who won’t accept them anymore than I can concern myself with a racist White boss who refuses to hire me because of my race. I would put my application in somewhere else and keep it moving. We have all experienced someone saying in so many words, “I don’t like you/think less of you because you are a blonde and blondes are just so stupid,” or “I don’t like you because you are a Black girl and I think they have bad attitudes/kinky hair etc.” It has always happened and we all have to eventually learn that not everyone will accept us. Of course, being mixed with Black and White automatically makes a child a POC, but they are not White nor Black. But that doesn’t mean that they can’t surround themselves with people from all racial groups, including those 2, that accept them and don’t care about their ethnicity. Sharon Leal (though she is a different mix than the one we are discussing here) seemed to have pretty much the same idea when she attended the Asian Excellence Awards. She said of the experience: “Last year, I came to the [Asian Excellence] awards and people were like what are you doing here Sharon? What’s going on? I felt like I had to announce that I am half-Filipino. My mother is from the Philippines…. I’m undoubtedly Asian. The best part of this award is your acknowledgment of that fact. I’m very proud to be part of these awards. I sincerely thank you. Thank you so much.” She has acknowledged on quite a few ocaasions that she feels very strongly that she is both, but it doesn’t bother her that many people tend to classify her as Black while others get it right. Other people don’t matter. The children of Black and White parents. know that they won’t be seen as white, and hopefully they wouldn’t try and fool themselves by trying to be since they are their own unique race of Black and White. I would personally find it a little insulting if they tried to pass for just white rather than biracial, since I did birth them (though of course I couldn’t tell them how to identify themselves). But I don’t see many mixed children with Black mothers having “Imitation of Life” crises these days and wishing that they were White. There is a very clear shift taking place in that area.
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Hi Ashley
I agree with everything you said (apart from the comment re. Jessica Ennis). My point about them being rejected by one race is addressing rejection on a more general level rather than their acquaintances.
I think in theory they should be see themselves as both but in practice, I cannot see how that is possible.
As for Jessica Ennis, I am surprised you think she is racially ambiguous. She looks mixed race (black/white) to me. I would never have thought otherwise. From the first time I saw her compete in Beijing I could tell she was mixed race (black/white). I just googled pics of her and she looks even more mixed in pics than live on TV.
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My fiance and I have been talking about having children for a while now. We’ve talked about discipline, education, names but we’ve never discussed race in regards to our children. It has honestly never come up. Don’t get me wrong we’ve talked about what we think they’ll look like vaguely, but never what race will they be. And as I read your comments and sat here and thought about it, I realized the question never came up because the question is ridiculous. It’s pretty obvious what the race of our children will be. My husband is white therefore my children will be white. I’m black therefore my children will be black. I don’t see any need to exclude anything. If i felt that way I wouldn’t be marrying my fiance.
In regards to the preference thing: anyone who prefers one race over another is prejudiced. Let’s not act like our preferences are created in vacuum and aren’t shaped by society. I’ve had a few white men tell me they prefer black women or even worse they’ll say chocolate/caramel. It’s creepy at best.
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@ Peanut
You would have a child with a non-Black man?
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You for got Rashida Jones,Quincy Jones daughter. Peggy Lipton is her mother.
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When you tell a child they are brown or both black and white, what does that mean bearing in mind they won’t be living on a remote island all by themselves?
My son is mixed race. Personally, the line I will be taking with him is that he is black with dual heritage. My ONLY problem with this terminology is that at the moment he looks white (really white). If he did not look like his father, I would think a mistake was made at the hospital. I have hopes he will get darker but I am beginning to realise that may be unlikely. If he remains as he is, I will go with simply “dual heritage”. I simply want to make sure he is ready and able to deal with the harsh realities of a very racist world.
The whole issue of identity for a mixed race person is not clear cut and I dare say it depends on where you are. In the UK, mixed race people are quickly becoming the largest ethnic minority group (ha, ha, ha they are considered ethnic minorities, says a lot, doesn’t it?). So their identity is somewhat recognised (that is until they do something criminal or they fail at something, then they are just plain black, for instance).
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Ashley, you are on the money about this…if its not one thing its another, that someone is going to try to lay on you
The moment one feels they have to be “accepted”, is where the problem starts…I feel blessed to have raised a bi (tri) racial , bi national son. Not only could he not be accepted by his various racial origins, he could be rejected by the nationalists of his bi national origins..
As a family, we just dont walk around asking “will you accept us ?” from any race, nation , religion or creed. And we deal with people on an individual basis
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Amber Rose, Kid from Eminem-No love video, Michael Lamey, Julia Jamois, Sabrina Karlsson.
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Carol Channing, Walter Sisulu, Whitney Houston,
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Maureen, I didnt see your post,excellent points…
For sure, having a bi racial child does mean shifting gears for each little obsticle that society is going to throw us down the pike
Your child will find their way , all they need is the minimal support from the parents and they will discover how to dribble the obsticles
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Because you would give birth to a non-Black child.
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@ Peanut
It’s all good.
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@B.R.: Yea, I know. I’m not sure why I thought it might be any different. Lol. Ah, well. I’ve been checking out the other posts here, so I’m about to see if I want to comment on one. Much Love.
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MEGHAN MARKLE
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@ Bulanik: Interesting about the “low IQ”. I guess that explains why my son finished sophomore high school with five AP classes, including AP calculus, and my daughter in 7th grade is on the same track in school. Both by the way are multi-instrumentalist musicians as well, both having won various music contests over the years. Some day I’ll be sure to remind them that their maternal biology dooms them to a low IQ. After all, their mother only made it through undergrad and grad school at UCLA. A low acheiver.
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Bulanik,
Peanut is refering to something called “sterotype threat”, look it up.
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As a young Black woman(I’m only 17), I am originally from New York and I moved to Florida when I was little, and I hardly see Black women with White men. I wonder why.
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i live in texas and mostly see ww/bm and asian women with white men. i rarely see blackwomen with white men. i completely agree with tyrone he is on point as always.some biracial kids are rude and some are not. when i was in 5th grade a girl who was black and asian insulted me because i was darker than her yet when the final day of school came she was embarrassed by her asian mother.i notice ppl pick on others because of their own insecurities.i think biracials should have their own category because i think its sad when they feel like they have to disown half of themselves just to please everybody else.i think black love is beautiful i just wish it was more of it on tv.i also notice that on black websites there are interracial ads but there are none on white websites.i think we have been brainwashed into think white is more beautiful and that black relationships aren’t.i even hear whites say how biracial kids are cute and evolution wants us to mate and they also say white kids are cute. its like they think anything that is white or close to it is beautiful. i never understand the ppl that say they are never attracted to their own race or the ones that date outside and paint their race of men or women as undesirable or beneath the white person they are with.
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how is it that a child born to a ww/bm is considered black but not a bw/wm child,that makes no sense because during slavery the master didn;t say o yall kids are white because i’m a white man and ur mother is black so you are free to go.so that to me disproves the man determines the race of the child theory because if it was then the kids of the slave master and black slave woman would be white therefore they would be free but that didn’t happen.but i guess ppl will argue that the white men didn;t claim them so they are not white which still makes no sense.
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the BEAUTIFUL MS. DENISE “VANITY” MATTHEWS is a white/black person. but vanity looks hispanic, am. indian, arab etc. except 4 asian.
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What about jesse williams?
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Zadie Smith is British and grew up in north west London.
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Logan West
Miss Teen 2013
http://theybf.com/2012/07/31/beauty-queen-dishes-on-being-bullied-about-her-race-and-not-acting-black
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@agabond, have you ever considered writing about how a mixed race person who grew up without the influence of the American culture views the issue of race? Just to see if the discussion goes in a different direction?
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You are what your father is. These people are dark-skinned whites.
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Actress, Shannon Komai McClain should be added to this list. African-American (and part Native-Indian) mother and Irish-American father.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2287319/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1
http://www.ShannonKomai.com
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I think that 1974 study is racist. The governments of the UK and that of Canada released that black students, particularly those of Nigerian, Ghanaian, etc. descents did better than other students including their white counterparts. So what does that bonk study price? That some whites are still racist
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I am from Nigeria, my daughter is 2years old, her father is Portuguese, they have refused to give me visa to his country, and are saying I should let my baby go with him to obtain her passport from his country. Am so scared, what if she never comes back?
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I assume you mean well, but there is some “hidden” racism in your blog.
1. on this one, it’s the IQ thing. What’s more causative for IQ than race is surroundings: White mothers, on average, will have better education, more wealth than black mothers. This explains IQ differences better than anything.
Having said that, any IQ test is highly culturally biased: It’s geared towards white suburban whites. For example, there can be a classical music question on it, but no hip-hop question.
In short, race-IQ test comparisons are practically NEVER corrected for background, education, wealth, police brutality, divorce rates, peer students etc. etc.
2. you call some whites “pure whites”. This suggests that double-race people are somehow impure. Pretty racist. This is not you entirely, but since you live in a white country, and the world is white-dominated, it’s how people are brainwashed.
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Adeen
As a young Black woman(I’m only 17), I am originally from New York and I moved to Florida when I was little, and I hardly see Black women with White men. I wonder why.
——————————————————————————————–
Thats because you don’t know what to look for. White men don’t “showboat” black women the way black men “showboat” white women. You have to know what to look for in order to see them.
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http://s192.photobucket.com/user/ToriDumas/media/maher7.jpg.html
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“White men don’t “showboat” black women the way black men “showboat” white women.””
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
More from this Blackwoman HATER /TROLL/LIAR/FAKE Blackman and/or OREO/MindController/STORMFRONT Devotee who goes by the name of Thwack.
If Thwack is a BlacK person then he’s an excellent example of Fuller’s thesis about why confused Black people should either be CONSTRUCTIVE or remain fullu away from other victims of racism and be absolutely silent.
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Is my statement true or false?
(Disclosure: Neely Fuller is the person who first pointed this phenomenon out to me)
And,
and,
more disclosure:
I have engaged in this behavior myself.
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“Is my statement true or false?
It depends on it’s scope.
If is descriptive of SOME White men, then of course there are always some.
(But then, there are also some brothers who are ashamed of their I/R relationships)
If you are stating it as some kind of national trend then site the source. I assume you have not travelled the entire U.S. conducting double blind studies on the subject have you? So where is this representative behavioral information coming from?
If it is merely anecdotal, then I have an anecdote of my own:
In most caes, men “showboat” the beautiful women they are with regardless of the race of the women. I’ve seen it done with Asian women, I’ve seen it done with Latinas, and I’ve seen it done with Black women. It just depends on the personal beauty perception of the woman by her partner – not a simplistic race formula.
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@ ColouredEuropeanObserver
1. The bit about IQ was meant to show that they are not mainly genetic.
2. Where did I call anyone “pure” White?
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King
If it is merely anecdotal, then I have an anecdote of my own:
——————————————————————————————
Too late bro; the truth of my observation was validated by JMs response.
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I fail to see the validation.
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mynameismyname
Unlike people who have a black parent, their race isn’t scruntinized.
——————————————————————————————–
Black people may need to change this; otherwise the offspring of these whiteman/Asian woman “arrangements” may try to “test drive” their racism on you? or your children?
On some of these white power blogs, racists openly acknowledge their “Chinese” wives and half white offspring. Both Charles Murrey (Bell Curve) and John Derbyshire have Chinese wives. There is a schism in the racist community regarding whether you can be in good racial standing after
catching “yellow fever”; Ive seen arguments break out but basically the rule appears to be “its tolerated as long as too many of us don’t engage in it.
Some of the racists call it “The Northern Alliance.”
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Don’t forget that some percentage of the whitemale/black female offspring are “trick babies.”
The inverse is not as frequent but it does occur. Autumn Jackson, the 22 year old bi-racial woman convicted of attempting to extort $40 million from Bill Cosby by claiming he was her father is an example.
I think her white mother set her up to try to pull off this stunt; its the white mother who told her Bill Cosby is her father. I bet she still does not know who her father is.
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here in many parts of Uk we see increasing levels of black children to white females not always single ones either. though its very common for white females to have relationships with black men the other way round is frowned on by the black society .
its the children who are growing up now being of mixed race who feel a bit out of place.though as its so common in some parts its no longer causing any issues. the few occasions where we get black females and white relationships being far fewer and standing out socially still get slightly ostracised. no doubt time will alter all our perceptions as all races eventually melt together where allowed to do so. the sticking point for many being not colour but a religious bar.
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@hornchurchguy
I have to disagree with you and would like to ask which black community in the UK are you talking about cause I am Nigerian, been to the UK many times and I have seen some Nigerian women/white British men couples and other African women with white British men in England. Yea there are more black men/white women couples but there are still alot in reverse. It was said that 50% of black Caribbean men & 35% of black Caribbean women are with white partners. If you theory is right we would see that 35% lower to be honest
http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21595908-rapid-rise-mixed-race-britain-changing-neighbourhoodsand-perplexing
Click to access 2000-34.pdf
In the Nigerian community they could careless whether it is a black men or women marrying outside their race in that community, maybe you need to be more specific cause the Black British community in England is not as clear cut & their not monolithic at all like the african american community when it comes to race. I would say your statements are true with african americans cause Black men in that community get a pass in Interracial marriage but for the most part Black women in the community don’t but I guess thats changing since there is a increase now in african american women in interracial marriage in America
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/06/12/interracial-marriage-who-is-marrying-out/
If you go on youtube now I am seeing more of these relationships now:
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ52D-gQcgc)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VNYlrA3njA)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZq_T6n2fVY)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46xhFCXBMJs)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Abkhv1WroRA)
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I would like to add to your list as well
Lilian bach(Nigerian mother(Yoruba)/polish father)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilian_Bach
Caroline Ekanem(Nigerian mother(igbo)/Scottish father)
http://www.lailasblog.com/2015/03/exclusive-interview-with-billionaire.html
http://www.modernghana.com/movie/3006/3/i-have-never-compromise-my-body-for-moneycaroline-.html
Juliet Ibraheim(Ghanaian mother/Lebanese father)
http://www.misspetitenaijablog.com/2013/12/my-biggest-challenge-is-that-im-of.html?m=0
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juliet_Ibrahim
Van Vicker(Ghanaian mother/European Father)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Vicker
Majid Micherl(Ghanian mother/ Lebanese father)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majid_Michel
Queen Hilbert(Nigerian mother/Lebanese father)
http://www.vanguardngr.com/2013/11/pornography-nollywood-queeneth-hilbert/
Eku Edewor(Nigerian mother/white British father)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eku_Edewor
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That sounded like ridiculous study done in 1974 on the IQ of mixed children. No different than the guy who did the study in the 60s saying divorce rates were higher in interracial marriages. I know some mixed race kids of BM/WM parents and they have excelled academically! Even better than their white peers.
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There’s more:
Pete Wentz- bassist for Fallout Boy (Jamaican mother, white American father)
Pat Smear- later rhythm guitarist for Nirvana (Black Indigenous mother, German father)
Logic- rapper (unknown ethnicities for both parents)
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yeah dont believe the IQ bit about the ww/bm stats at all.
” However, now, in the area where I live, there is a whole generation of golden babies with WM/BW parents who are together as intact families. We see them everywhere.”
this is so true so many more bw and with wm, even more so than bm/ww now! its going on everywhere now!
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Tracee Ellis Ross, Soledad O’Brien, Bob Marley, Slash and Eartha Kitt to name a few and you got the nerve to utter that they are less outstanding than the offspring of black males and white women. Your bias is not fact.
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Actor Tom Sizemore
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@msgood
“how is it that a child born to a ww/bm is considered black but not a bw/wm child,that makes no sense because during slavery the master didn;t say o yall kids are white because i’m a white man and ur mother is black so you are free to go.so that to me disproves the man determines the race of the child theory because if it was then the kids of the slave master and black slave woman would be white therefore they would be free but that didn’t happen.but i guess ppl will argue that the white men didn;t claim them so they are not white which still makes no sense.”
Actually, it was not based on fatherhood. It was based on motherhood to justify the children conceived from the rape and because Black men were very rarely with White women. If so, by such a practice, the children were White because of the mother. And in some cases, they would try to pass them off as White. I know of one historical documentation of a White woman pretended to give birth to a child with a “skin condition” to dupe her White husband. Lol… Basically, under “partus sequitur ventrum” (that which follows from the womb), White men became the number one, purposeful deadbeat dads. Black men, on the other hand, would be more likely to face being sold, just used as a breeder, etc., so they were not fully “deadbeat” in that respect.
Even one of the most notable “Black” men cited as the largest slave owner– William Ellison– likely had a White father or was a quadroon. The fact that he was freed and garnered such wealth is highly unlikely for someone who is Black by way of having two Black parents.
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To think that a few years down the line, statistics now reflects that:
Black Women are substantially the most educated minority despite the intersectionality of Sexism and Racism that works against them. This goes along with another well documented statistics that Black women are the ONLY race and demographic of women creating more businesses than their male counterparts despite the aforementioned intersectionality.
Another well documented research is that Black Women/White men marriages have the most successful/long lasting union, while black men/white women relationship have the worst union and breaks down the fastest. That generally ties in to the reason above.
Since this post is about biracials with black fathers, to round it off, statistics highlights that biracials with black fathers are being ABANDONED at the rate of 92%, with 88% depending on welfare; while their white or non-Black mothers are left destitute. It’s called “Black Paternal Absenteeism”. It explains why abandoned biracials with black fathers overwhelm the foster care system in the UK and the US. How is this anything to feel accomplished about?
There are so many BW/WM famous offsprings from the 90’s and in 2020 missing from the line up, probably cause people think they are white or other.
An interesting reading link that shows BW/WM relationships possibly as far back as the 1600’s.
https://face2faceafrica.com/article/5-little-known-black-female-slave-traders-who-changed-the-course-of-history/2
Fenda Lawrence
Anna Kinglsey.
https://aaregistry.org/story/anna-kingsley-former-slave-abolitionist-plantation-owner/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thecoastal.com/featured/complex-story-anna-kingsley/amp/
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