Here are the black women that English-speaking white people think are the most beautiful (with the number of lists of beautiful women each one made in my survey):
Halle Berry (9 lists) – American film actress, the first black woman to win an Oscar for Best Actress. She was Storm in the X-Men films (2000-2006) and the Bond girl in “Die Another Day” (2002). She won the Oscar for “Monster’s Ball” (2001). Her mother is white, her father is black.
Beyonce Knowles (8 lists) – American singer. She was in Destiny’s Child and then on her own. Her father is black, her mother is Creole.
Tyra Banks (4 lists) – American supermodel. She is the first black woman to make the cover of GQ magazine and, more importantly for this list, Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue (1997). More.
Mariah Carey (3 lists) – American singer. She sings like a black girl but looks like a white girl. Her mother is Irish white, her father is Venezuelan black.
Thandie Newton (3 lists) – British film actress. She starred opposite Tom Cruise in “Mission Impossible 2” (2000). Born in Africa to a white father and a black mother, she grew up in England and later came to Hollywood. She was shocked at how much her skin colour mattered there – more than in Africa or England. Tom Cruise had to fight for her to star opposite him.
Vanessa Williams (2 lists) – an American beauty queen, singer and actress. She was the first black Miss America (1983). You can see her on American television in “Ugly Betty”. She is so light her eyes are green.
Iman (2 lists) – a supermodel from Somalia married to rock star David Bowie.
Angela Bassett (2 lists) – American film actress. Although she is a beautiful and wonderful actress, I am surprised she made this list: I did not think she was that well known among white people.
Alicia Keys (2 lists) – American singer. White mother, black father.
Half of these women have a white or near-white mother.
This list has the only three black women who have ever made the cover of Maxim magazine in America: Beyonce Knowles, Halle Berry and Mariah Carey.
How I made the list: I put “the most beautiful women” into Google and went through the first 100 websites. If a website had a list of beautiful women that was nearly all white, then I recorded any black women it might have.
As I went through the lists I soon understood that they were made by people with more than just a passing interest in white women. So I think it is safe to say that nearly all the list makers were white themselves.
Because of how I made my list, it necessarily concerns only English-speaking whites. There were lists from Britain and Australia, but most seemed to be American. There were also a few lists from the Middle East and India too, but they did not affect the outcome because they only dealt with women from their part of the world.
See also:
- The most beautiful black women:
- black women that white men like – the kind you see them go out with and marry
- race and beauty
- One Drop Rule
- Is That Really Beyonce: Black Women and Beauty
- The black women of Covarrubias – a Mexican who liked black women not for their whiteness but for their own black beauty
- Creoles
- The women:
Your survey has good analysis.
Here’s some other women who could have made the list:
http://www.fashionestore.net/fashion-models.html
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Abagond,
Thanks for the list. Notice that the mainstream media tendency to pick Black women with at least 50%white ancestry as oppose to ones with partial Asian, Latino, and American Indian Ancestry, let alone the ones with more than 50% Black. Mainstream media are more comfortable with Black women who conformed to the Euro beauty standard. What if Tyra and Vanessa have a natural hairstyle? Would they be on the most beautiful list? It’s sad.
Stephanie B.
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This list confirms the fact that black women need to be very close to the white standard of beauty to be considered attractive in the mainstream. I do not look like any of these women but I am attractive. It would be nice to see beautiful women with afro features celebrated in the mainstream. It seems like a lot of black men(not all) follow these same standards when choosing women. When you question it they brush it off and call it a “preference”.
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What yaz said. 🙂
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Beyonce’s mother is a light skinned blk. Creole people are blk people mixed with French.
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Her mother is Creole:
http://creoleneworleans.typepad.com/photos/famous_creoles_of_today/beyonce_k.html
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The list is so white that it seems like something from 1958, not 2008.
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I agree.
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I understand abagond but creole is just a light skinned African-American. The mixing in LA is no diferent from being blk and Irish and from Boston in the larger picture.
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I forgot to add in my post yesterday that this is a good post.
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Thanks. Maybe these days being light-skinned Creole does not mean much, but it once did. Unlike the rest of the country, New Orleans did not follow the One Drop Rule, not until the 1890s. That is how I understand it. I will do a post on it next week. After I do one on Jody Watley.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/03/15/creoles/
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Yes you are right. The French once owned LA and there are still small groups of French speaking people there. I have heard some white people talk about the beauty one of your favorties, Gabrielle Union.
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Gabrielle Union was on one of the lists in my survey. The ones shown above are those who made two or more lists.
Some of the other women who made only one list: Kelis, Ciara, Naomi Campbell, KD Aubert, Phylicia Rashad, Diahann Carroll.
I was surprised Naomi Campbell was not on more lists.
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Sure they’re nice but to me the most beautiful one is this woman(not black) that Michael Steep from REM introduces in this great video:
http://www.e-citizen.tv/wordpress/langswitch_lang/en/
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Oh please! These women are on the list because they are beautiful. Some blacks are never satisfied and this is coming from a black woman.
I get so sick of people especially black women complaining about lighter skin women. The last time I’ve checked they were black too. God didn’t make every black person dark or to have one common feature. Black women come in all beautiful shades, what do you want Whoopi Goldberg to be listed too?
Mixed women like halle, alicia, and thandie claim the black race. Who are you to tell them what they are and should be. Black women come in all features to be celebrated. Everybody don’t have to look like Alex Wek and don’t act like she should’ve been on that list.
I also get sick of blacks that have an inferiority complex toward whites. None of these women listed look nothing like white women. God didn’t insisted for straight hair, light eyes and light skin to be put on white women. Naturally women with darker colored eyes and darker skin are beautiful too. You people act like what white people says is the god right truth.
If you don’t like that list make your own, but these obviously beautiful black women that’s listed should be included.
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titi75: I did a post on her too a while back, one of the few living heroes of our time:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2007/10/12/aung-san-suu-kyi/
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Unique: Yes, they are all beautiful and black. But the striking thing is how light-skinned most of them are. What that says to me is that to white people a black woman is only beautiful to the degree that she is white.
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I am Caucasian, and in my opinion THE MOST beautiful woman is Sanaa Lathan. Simply stunningly beautiful!
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She is beautiful. She is seventh on my own list:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2007/06/09/the-ten-most-beautiful-women-in-the-world/
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what about Jennifer Beals. her mother is irish and her father is african american. So she’s black in the meaning of whithe people and she is so beautiful.
rgds
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These women are very mainstream so they become a very common reference to a beautiful black women.
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Jennifer Beals is beautiful but I think she only appeared on only one list in my survey.
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in which survey?
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i mean which list
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As the post says, I went through the first hundred websites that Google lists for “the most beautiful women” and went through their lists of beautiful women.
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i a white male think women of color are the most gorgeous women on earth and their diversity is endless. model beaulatasha is the most gorgeous in the world she is definitely an ethic mix of the races.
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Unique, see women like you are more of a worry as it doesn’t seem like you have educated yourself,yes light skinned women are black mixed but fundamentally we came from Africa and for that to change and to have lighter skin to occur it has to be mixed. Evolution was the reason for white skin Which happened in the colder regions and lighter eyes are a mutation that happened near the black sea region and people further to Europe as they moved towards places like Finland, Sweden etc saw it as a sign of beauty and wanted to breed so it was a majority thats why you will find these places are largely still blond hair and blue eyed people. To divide and conquer light skin was seen as more beautiful than black skin, black women and men where seen as objects treated like meat and not good enough to have jobs to have an education this happened through the caste system and colonialism and slavery, black people where made to hate themselves but excepted if they were lighter that is where the term “House Ni*&ger” comes in.Darker skin women were out in the sun working while lighter skin women where in the shade.
I am glad you mentioned Thandie Newton and others claiming her black side and the I don;t want to digress on that but that’s another point as a mixed race person myself I don’t have to claim black I am black it’s a part of me white genes are more recessive that’s why when a person is mixed with black and white they can never “claim” white as you would say. Yes and as black people we are letting ourselves down as we still perpetuate this image of beauty which is outside of ourselves. We need to embrace our own beauty.
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Let’s face it mixed women esp. mixed black women are hot!
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Unique = Uncle Ruckus
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To Tired- what revisionist gibberish, these women are not “black”, they are mixed race, no more black than white- as for white gene being more “recessive”, nonsense, I have a neighbour who is white with a black wife, and their son looks as white as if he had two white parents.
You are nothing more than a black racist with a chip on his/her shoulder
Good luck with that
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In America there is the One Drop Rule, which says if you look even part black you are considered to be black. So Halle Berry is black. etc. That may be changing with the push for biracial as something in between black and white, but that remains to be seen.
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im a white guy and i love black women.. but i would have put naomi campbell on this list
i think white guys in general are a bit bored of stickin to women of the same race as them so loads of my mates dont go out with girls based on race but on how confident and pretty and a good personality.
soon theres gna be loads of black women with white men
sorry black guys , wer stealing ur women
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I was surprised Naomi did not make it, but she only appeared in one list.
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Personally, I don’t think it has anything to do with white standards of beauty of light skinned. There are white women who never make anyones list, yet you don’t see white women complaining about the women on the list. When black women are gorgeous, whether light skinned or dark, they are appreciated. Funny thing is, a while back one of the most beautiful black women in the world, grace jones who is very dark although she has stunning chiseled features was/still is reveled as beautiful. However, blacks never embraced her because they said she was too dark, looked like a man, had short hair. Black women need to get real and make up their minds what their own standard of beauty is. By the way, I am black.
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“In America there is the One Drop Rule, which says if you look even part black you are considered to be black. So Halle Berry is black. etc. That may be changing with the push for biracial as something in between black and white, but that remains to be seen.”
Slavery ended a long time ago. Also, one drop theory was in essence repealed in the sixties with the loving case. The only people who perpetuate “one drop theory” are black people. It’s usually used to keep the lighter ones in their place. Most black people are quick to negate another person of color’s ancestry when it is spoken of publicly. If one claims to be American Indian, blacks will ridicule the person. If One claim to have any white blood that is not the result of one white and black parent, black people will say that it doesn’t count.
Black people have a tendency to try and pull their numbers up by forcing everyone under the same black umbrella, whether one agrees or not. However, they have to realize that in other countries, it is not valid. In many African countries, black Americans are sometimes not considered identifiable black. In Europe, unless one has the black skin of an African, one is looked upon as a tanned ambiguous other.
And to Ray Davies,
“I have a neighbour who is white with a black wife, and their son looks as white as if he had two white parents.”
You probably want to stop assuming that your neighbor is pure black. The genetics of a pure black person would cause their child to be dark. However, if the mother carried recessive genes from a non-parent that combined with the genes of the father, then yes it is possible for the child to look almost white. Scientifically, if the mother were really a black person, the kid would have been brown skinned. Don’t throw stones at someone for being a racist, when you still have prejudice yourself. You prejudged your neighbor to be a pure black woman based on what you thought not on what you knew.
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I know what you are saying about black Americans hanging on to the One Drop Rule to increase their numbers, but they are hardly the only ones who apply it. White Americans do too.
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Good observation about Grace Jones.
Blacks and white Americans have different ideas of female beauty. That is why Grace Jones appeals more to whites than blacks.
Alek Wek seems to be another case like that: I think she is ugly but people who otherwise care little for black women think she is great. I know she is a supermodel but it is white people who put here there.
More here:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/05/28/black-women-that-white-men-like/
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I am not saying that white Americans don’t. However, I am black and I have grown up around black people and have lived my adult life around whites. I can tell you that blacks would rather consider someone “light skinned”
and ostracize them for being an oreo or not being black enough rather than accept the individual ethnicity of that person. Most whites on the other hand tend to at least ask ones nationality. I am not giving any credit to either race in America because I find that most Americans are too racist for their own good.
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Blacks make a way bigger deal about being light-skinned. But part of the reason white Americans do not make such a big deal is because to them black is black.
Agreed about Americans being way too racist for their own good.
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Of course they have different ideals of beauty. However, for the most part Black Americans are always complaining about dark skinned women not being represented in modeling and the media. Yet, they have limitations on how dark a woman can be. For them, Alex is too dark and Grace was too dark. Mind you, Grace met the standard of European ice princess beauty regardless of her dark skin because her feutures were atypical and sculpted. Alek Wek on the other hand was a part of Europe’s inclusion of African diversity on the runway’s. Europe Acknowledged the beauty of these women, not America.
Black women in America seem to have the problem of accepting the wide array of beauty within their own race. An actual black African women should not be repulsive to a people who proclaim themselves African American.
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Well, the trouble is that black American ideas of beauty are not completely black. Because of white American ideas of beauty and, just as important, white ideas of what it means to be black, black American beauty gets hung up on skin colour and hair.
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“But part of the reason white Americans do not make such a big deal is because to them black is black.”
I beg to differ with you. It all depends on the area one lives. In New England, Cape Verdean’s are not considered black by most white people because they are light skinned. In the mid west, Ethiopians and Somalians are not considered Black by most whites which is ridiculous. In Georgia, both of these groups are considered black. In New York, most people could care less. In Louisiana, a creole is exactly what they are. Move that person to ohio and they become black.
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Interesting. I noticed that in Brazil what is considered “white” is different than in America. The line is drawn differently.
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However what you are talking about is how much of drop counts as one drop – where black starts. My point is that once you are on the black side of the line then it does not matter so much to whites how dark you are, not as much as it does to blacks.
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Well I can tell you that from my experience of being what I call a “historic” black American meaning that my lineage goes way back. Depending on where I lived, I drifted from side to side as to if I was considered black by both whites and other blacks. Now, I live in Italy where I am not black at all anymore. It is confusing but most black Americans need to wake up because all of that blood that they don’t acknowledge in America is noticeable in other countries. It may sting a little to have an African ask if you are a Mexican. Just in Case you are wondering. My heritage is Black, American Indian, and Irish.
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Wow. Very interesting. Do you have a blog?
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If it were possible to do a DNA survey of all US citizens, there would be heads exploding from coast to coast.
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You got that right!
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abagond Says:
Sun 20 Jul 2008 at 08:38:03
Well, the trouble is that black American ideas of beauty are not completely black. Because of white American ideas of beauty and, just as important, white ideas of what it means to be black, black American beauty gets hung up on skin colour and hair.
Also, White people created this light skinned vs. dark skinned thing and just made sure that black people perpetuated it (and black people have definitely done that) so much so that White people no longer care. Light skinned people were given much greater preference and better treatment and dark skinned people shunned and mistreated. So the inner hatred started but only Black people can stop it. I am light skinned but thought I would be prettier if I was lighter still (can you believe that?!) when I was a child. Now I love my skin color and get compliments all the time from people (mainly White people) but WM never hit on me or ask me out ONLY BM and even they are really slacking off.
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Right, that follows from what you said: you are a bigger prize to black American men because they have bought into the whole light-skinned-is-good thing. Deep in the country in Cameroon in Africa, for example, light skin is not seen that way.
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I agree w/ everyone about how fluid racial perception is. I also agree with the phantom poster who broke it down about the mixed messages many black Americans seem to send when it comes to perceptions of beauty.
I do disagree with how certain subgroups or nationalities of black folks are “seen” in different parts of the country. Cape Verdeans are DEFINTELY seen as black in New England. How do I know? Because I live in New England, know several C.V.s and trust me, white folks KNOW that they’re black, no matter what “complexion” they are. And more importantly, C.V.’s tend to say that they’re black.
Same with the Louisana “Creoles”, they defintely identify w/ African American culture, for the most part. Their individual culture is defintely a hallmark of Southern black American culture.
Ethiopians and Somalis not considered black ANYWHERE in the U.S.?!?!
Are you a comedian? Trust me, no one in the U.S. will be seeing those people as anything other than black.
Enough w/ this “one drop” business. The “one drop rule” is the reason most blacks outside of Africa are considered black. You just can’t cherry-pick black people from interracial parentages or of certain phenotypes, and discount them. That’s ignorant and impossible to do. Considering the fact these same black folks have relatives who fit you all’s “perceived” idea of what a ‘black’ person looks like.
It’s white folks who see black as black, not all this “light/dark/mixed/biracial” stuff. That’s black folks, who predicatably create these distinctions. These days, many black folks will acknowledge a black child from a black/white union as “mixed”, it’s white folks who remind that same black kid that they’re not white, no matter who one of their parents was.
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Also, to the anonymous poster, I don’t think most black Americans are trying to “claim” people who are also of significant/predominate African descent. Estentially, in the western world, if you’re of known/visible significant African descent, you’re considered black (to some degree). Despite a few individuals’ personal experiences that counter this, that’s just the way it is at the end of the day. Trust me.
The reason why blacks who attempt to claim “other” status are ridiculed or dismissed by other black folks, is because of history. There’s always been black folks who went out of their way to try to be something other than black. Anything than black …As if blackness was a curse that they’re were trying to escape. When you live in a culture that tells you that “black” is less than and inferior, what do you expect?
That’s why the vast majority of black folks, no matter their appearance or thier actual biological makeup, are defiantly black-indentified. It’s partly a pride thing and it’s partly, because well, in America and much of the world, that’s exactly what “race” they/we are.
Also, the reason why the general white person is oblivious to the whole “light/dark” concept when it comes to black people, is because as I stated here in another post, the terms “light skinned” and “dark skinned” are extremely subjective and very relative. What’s “light” to a lot of black people in a comparative sense, is still “dark” to most whites.
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mynameismyname: I agree with most of what you just said, but only in regard to North America. The One Drop Rule is an Anglo-American invention as far as I know. I get heat from Brazilians in some of my other posts, for example, when I apply it to them.
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In my opinion, Alicia Keys is the most beautiful women on earth; anyway, Beyonce Knowles is more sexy than her.
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“I do disagree with how certain subgroups or nationalities of black folks are “seen” in different parts of the country. Cape Verdeans are DEFINTELY seen as black in New England. How do I know? Because I live in New England, know several C.V.s and trust me, white folks KNOW that they’re black, no matter what “complexion” they are. And more importantly, C.V.’s tend to say that they’re blacK”
Ethiopians and Somalis not considered black ANYWHERE in the U.S.?!?!
You obviously don’t know white people too well. I lived in New England. In Rhode Island to be exact. Cape Verdeans claim to be Cape Verdeans and on the census count they are not counted with African-Americans.
As far as Ethiopians and Somalians are concerned, You are wrong there too and I will tell you why. I worked for a couple of years in Minneapolis/St. Paul and there is a large population of them there.
White people are really funny when it comes too new Immigrants and race. Because it is so ingrained in them that black people are ugly, not attractive, etc, they never look beyond skin color to even see if their distorted beliefs are accurate. Thus, when they see Ethiopians, Somalians, Cape Verdeans or anyone they are forced to look at because you have to admit, many of them are stunners. They rationalize the beauty and immediately separate them from Black Americans. They have a tendency to try to want to control anyone that is dark with which they can still identify. Trust me, I know how white America is from experience. Have you ever had white people compliment you and tell you how beautiful they think you are and then have them follow the compliment with, ” well what nationality are you, you couldn’t be black.” Have you ever started work as “the only black professional ” in a work environment and had white people tell you, “if I were you, I wouldn’t go to the black churches in town or hang around in that community because most of them are etc”
Light skinned people and high tech professionals get these comments all of the time. So do the new immigrants! However, it is up to the person to let the white people know where they draw the line. Sometimes, it is possible to draw a line but you risk your job security and being labeled as having an attitude. However, many times people play the “new doll” role and by right into the game. Like I have said, You obviously don’t know white Americans the way I do.
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Interesting. Can you point us to any pictures on the Internet of the sort of light-skinned look you are talking about? I have never met anyone from Cape Verde, not knowingly at least.
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Abagond, go on Myspace, for example, and look up one of the ‘groups’ they have there for Cape Verdeans.
The majority of these people look black.
There have been some Cape Verdeans who’ve been arrested here in New England. On the arrest sheet, their race was always listed as ‘Black’. No matter their appearance or the Latin surnames.
And please “MsDay”, don’t use your own PERSONAL EXPERIENCES to color a nationwide phenomeon. That’s beyond ignorant. Antidotal evidence, no offense, is a bullshit minefield. Everyone’s experiences are different so it’s hard to come to a conclusion on just one person’s tales.
I’m actually going by the wide picture. Trust me, most Horners (horn of East Africa) and Cape Verdeans are seen as black. (And usually identify as such). Are they not?
And you have no clue who I am and what my nationality is or what my experiences with white people have been (and naturally they will be different from yours, as would most people’s) ….so that’s just ignorant.
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Oh, MsDay, there’s the tragic story of a few Somali kids who got killed by some racist white street punks in Maine years ago. When asked why they attacked and fatally ended up killing the newly-arrived Somali youngsters, one of the white men responded “Because they f***in’ n*****s”.
And I have plenty more nationwide examples ….
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MsDay,
Since you throw out personal instances, I had a C.V. buddy who got arrested for ….I won’t say on the internet …here in New England as well. Guess what race he was listed as?
Black.
Remember Jim Mendes? C.V. Radio DJ in New England from years back. What did he call himself?
“The first black radio DJ in Rhode Island”.
I remember reading a book about Ethiopian Jews and their escape from their homeland. They immigrated mainly to the U.S. and Isreal. Damn near every individual story detailed their struggle to accuse to being BLACK in mostly “white” countries.
And Keyse Jama, he was the Somali deportee from Minnesota, a few years ago.
Guess what race he was classified as?!?1
….And I can go on and on and on ’till the break of dawn with many more examples but I won’t …
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I meant to type ‘adjust’ in the above message.
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I am Black, White, and East Asian….to me; I am Beautiful. I love the fact that my hair is thick and soft and at the same time nappy. I love that I can twist it, braid it, relax it, and if I feel like it wet it and twist it in little knots and when I unravel it the next day I have a headful of curls. If you feel beautiful,you are. All women are beautiful just because we are women; but Black women have some “Bite” to them; meaning that most of us have been thru hell and back too many times to put up with alot of BS. Sometimes I get mad when I see a black man with a white woman; but then I think “what am I mad about?” I have the bloodlines in me of Africans, Europeans, and East Asians….all races of some of the most erotic, beautiful, mysterious sensuous women on earth…why should I be upset? We must feel good about who and what we are….and trip this…if white people didnt think Black was beautiful, why do they lay in the sun and pay hundreds of dollars to get brown like us; and why do they shoot fat from their behinds to have plump, lusious lips like ours? White men love Black women but alot of them don;t know how to approach us. I have dated white men and find them to “soft” for my taste…I like my men with a little “Bite” in them. BlackEurasianQueen1
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When I see a beautiful woman, my only thought is “My God she’s beautiful!” Who cares if she’s white, black, light, dark, or any other catagory you can put on them? Am I the only person who thinks that the races are mixing at such a fast pace, thanks to technology and better means of travel, that the issue will be a moot point for our decendents?
I’m a white male raised in the redneck hotbed of the Appalachians. I would love to see the day when there wasn’t a soul in the world that cared what color you are.
By the way, where is Samantha Mumba on your list?? She’s simply amazing in my opinion. Oooh and Candace Parker! I’d love her even if I wasn’t a Vol fan.
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Samantha Mumba appeared in only one of the lists I surveyed, so she did not make the cut. Same as Naomi Campbell. She is not well-known in America, but she does seem to be someone who appeals to both blacks and whites.
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Naomi Campbell is very well known in America, but her off-the-runway troubles far outshadow her looks.
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Yeah, Naomi’s one of the most well known supermodels ever.
In fact, she’s the most successful and well known black model ever, in the U.S.
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I thought for sure Naomi would make this list, but she did not.
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A while ago, I skimmed a few “sexiest women alive” lists on the internet. All were recent and all, like you know, were obviously determined by all white editors. The vast majority of the women on these lists were white. When it came to non-white women, I saw that “mixed race” Latinas and East Asians either outnumbered or equaled the number of black women on the lists. But all women of color were minorities on the list.
One striking observation I made about the East Asian women on the lists: most of them were Eurasian or “mixed”. Only one or two were “purely” Asian. So, perhaps, for white people who strongly prefer their “own kind”, a woman of color is more likely to been as desirable if she has traces of European blood?
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Damn, I had recorded several lists a while ago (all from the US) and I can’t remember most of them at the moment, but lets contrast two lists, of “sexist women alive” decided by editors (not the public) of two very different sources. One, Maxim Hot 100(undeniably white). The other, TVOne’s 16 Sexiest Black Woman alive (voted by black producers).
Maxim Hot 100
Top Ten (in descending order): Marisa Miller, Scarlett Johansson, Jessica Biel, Eva Longoria Parker, Sarah Michelle Gellar, Elisha Cuthbert, Eva Mendes, Christina Aguilera, Lindsay Lohan, Ashley Tisdale.
Race of women:
79 white men (79%): 8 out of 10 of the top ten.
9 black women (9%): In descending order- Christina Milian, Alicia Keys, Gabrielle Union, Mariah Carey, Selita Eubanks, Zoe Saldana, Ashanti, Rihanna, Beyonce Knowles.
-Only two were spawned from interracial marriages (Keys, Carey) and ranked rather low (#77, #71 respectively).
-Four are of Carribean descent: Milian, Eubanks, Saldana, Rihanna, from Cuba, Cayman Islands, Dominican Republic and Barbados respectively.
11 “Latino/Hispanic” women (11%): America Ferrera, Susie Castillo, Roselyn Sanchez, Nadine Velazquez, Sofia Vergara, Jessica Alba, Eva Mendes, Eva Longoria. (Add Cameron Diaz and Christina Aguilera, for good measure, both have “Hispanic” fathers).
-Mostly “light skinned” mestizas or “mulattas”. Some would be described as “dark” by their origin countries’ standards.
-Most have dark hair and dark eyes and an ambigious quality, an altered Southern European look.
5 East Asian (5%): Tila Tequila, Olivia Munn, Cheryl Burke, Vanessa Minillo, Vanessa Anne Hudgens
-With the lone exception of Tequila, all the other four are Eurasian – all have East Asian mothers and white fathers. (it was like that on the multiple other lists I viewed as well).
Pussycat Dolls (various members): Lead singer is Eurasian.
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TVOne’s 16 Sexiest Black Women Alive:
Top ten (in ascending order): Halle Berry, Gabrielle Union, Beyonce Knowles, Naomi Campbell, Rihanna, Paula Patton, Lauren London, Angela Bassett, Iman, Vanessa Williams.
Janet Jackson (surprised she’s so low), Jada Pinkett Smith, Alicia Keys, Tyra Banks (ditto with Janet; perhaps their stock went down?), Beverly Johnson, Alek Wek close out the list.
Special mention went to Michelle Obama.
So, 7 actresses, 4 singers (Williams can join as list as well), 5 models …pretty good balance, IMO.
Racially speaking, only 3 come from interracial parentages (Keys, London, and #1 herself, Ms. Berry). Shade-wise and ethnically, (that’s everybody pays attention, I know!-LOL), there’s a decent range: from gray eyed Vanessa Williams to coal-black Dinka Alek Wek.
One list doesn’t justify everyone’s taste. Personally, I think yours was better than any mainstream TV station or magazine’s. My list of 10 sexiest black women in the media would probably be, in specific order: Gabrielle Union, Sanaa Lathan, Joy Bryant, Rosario Dawson, Salli Richardson, Keisha Knight Pulliam, Lauren London, Meagan Good, Christina Milian, Stacey Dash. They’re all actresses! LOL.
Intresting comments, from the website where I got the list from: http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment_tv_tvblog/2008/07/halle-berry-cho.html.
The editors at the paper want Oprah (the #1 black women, or woman any race, in the media). A few of the posters question Halle’s blackness and a few ponder why there is a list for “sexiest black women” anyway. Ha! That’s white folks for you.
Aba, what do you make of all this, the Maxim and TV One lists and just the politics of it all?
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Interesting that even with Asian women whites prefer those who are part-white over those who are pure. Kind of sad, but not surprising.
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It seems Maxim made an effort to balance the list by race – the percentages are close to what you see in America as a whole. But they clearly applied a white idea of beauty to all women: the Asians are mostly part-white and the blacks are mostly light-skinned.
You can not completely blame Maxim for that: their formula is to feature women from the entertainment industry as opposed to no-name swimsuit models like, say, Smooth magazine does. So part of the blame goes to Hollywood. But only part: even within their formula they could have had a better mix, like TV One.
If Maxim put Toccara Jones in their list, then I would be very impressed. Toccara and Angel Lola Luv are by far the most popular women on this website.
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LOL: I am not surprised that people (meaning white people) question the need for a list of black women. I guess they think that is racist – while all their lists full of white women and half-white women are not!!!
If you type “the most beautiful white women” into Google, my list is the first one named! But that is only because I think of white women as white women and not as unraced women. Most people who type “white women” into Google seem to be black (see Google Insights).
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Thanks for your list and the one from TV One! It is interesting to compare.
The post I wanted to do was not “The most beautiful black women according to white people” but “The most beautiful white women according to black men”. I got the idea from watching Lupe Fiasco’s “Superstar”: I noticed all the women were white or Latino-looking, but it seemed like they were picked by a black man. So that is what I wanted to do, but there are just not enough lists online to allow me to do that. So I wound up with this post instead!
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What I find interesting about Maxim is that the white women in Maxim Para Hombres (the Hispanic American Maxim) are so much better looking than the white women in the Anglo Maxim.
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I agree w/ most of your commentary, Aba.
See that crazy term “light skinned”…so subjective! I would only classify maybe 3 or 4 of the 9 black women Maxim chose as “light” (Keys, Carey, Rihanna w/o a doubt; Beyonce-only because she’s perceived as such by much of the public). And remember only 2 of those women came from an interracial union.
When you look at the black women in the media, you see variety. In sizes, colors, personas, etc. So there’s no excuse to have only a solitary look when celebrating or acknowleding the beauty of the sistas because the variety is there.
The thing is that white folks don’t see themselves as “white”. They’re just people. They are raceless. There’s freedom in that. This hit home dramatically once when I was working as an intern at a local cable station:
My “supervisor” asked me to categorize some headshots of various females that they wanted to use for various commericals. He casually goes, “Ok, sort them out in two categories, alright: blondes and brunettes”. The only problem w/ that strategy is that there were many headshots of non-white women! So, I made a point to create my own categories!
Such an innocent incident just goes to show you that for many general white people, non-white women aren’t even in the running, when it comes to attraction.
Whitness isn’t a racial attribute, it’s the standard.
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So, you think black casting agents cast a lot of these non-black-women-ridden music videos? I’m not entirely sure.
I know that many times a casting director would pick the models and the rappers and the record company people will approve the ladies.
Few rappers have the pull to choose the women in their videos.
One thing I know is that whatever women are being used in music videos, they don’t reflect their real life at all. The vast majority of these rappers (similar to black pro athletes) are married/involved with BLACK WOMEN. Usually an obvious black women at that. And a lot of times these women aren’t anyone’s idea of “eye candy”. LOL.
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I just watched that Lupe video. You’re right, not a black woman in sight in that clip! LOL. In fairness though, that song was not targeted to the “urban” audience but more so the general pop one (like most mainstream rap) so that may explain the seemingly deliberate use of non-black women in that video.
Here’s a rap video that IS targeted to the “urban” audience (notice the differences), from a southern rapper named Rick Ross: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRKtBgkn17U
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I do not know who does the casting in most rap videos. I wonder about that. But it just seemed like it was a black man in the case of “Superstar” even though all the women were white – but I do not know the facts even in that case. It is just how it seemed. They were not the sort of white women that most white American men would pick.
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I think Ne-Yo’s “Go On Girl” is a case where a white man picked the girls but a black man approved them or maybe vice versa. Not saying Ne-Yo himself necessarily had any input.
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Most of the women in that Rick Ross video (“Here I Am”) do fit sort of the black idea of beauty that I have been talking about: light skin, long black hair, near-white features. I think in this case the women were put there (by whoever) to appeal to black men.
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About music videos:
I have a strong lurking feel that a white, or at least, non-black person cast that “Superstar” clip. I mean, that song was targeted to a certain audience and I think they intentionally used people who reflect that demographic.
Were we watching the same Rick Ross video?
I saw VARIETY in that clip. That’s what made me know that it was intended for an “urban” audience. The lead girl is not ‘light skinned’ and has a short hairdo, that deviates from that idea that you say they push. There were a number of OBVIOUS black women along with a few racially ambigious/Latin American types.
Eh …I doubt black men are the intended demo for rap videos or any videos, in all honesty. The majority of purchasers of rap music are WHITE. The second highest consumers of “urban” music are BLACK WOMEN. So, their aim for these videos and songs, has to have that in consideration. It wouldn’t make sense for them to attempt to pander to what they think black men will like because they’re not the main consumers, you see what I mean?
(Case in point: The vast majority of Ne-Yo’s fanbase is (BLACK) FEMALE, so that video or any video of his is not for black men.)
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I agree about the intended audiences of hip hop videos and Ne-Yo, but I think we have a different idea of what counts as light skin, which, as you have pointed out elsewhere, is pretty subjective.
Note that I did not say all the women in the Rick Ross video were all light-skinned and so on, just most. The leading woman is certainly “blacker” than most of the others.
Going just by memory:
Light: Rihanna, Melyssa Ford, Beyonce, Alicia Keys, Lauren London, Amy Holmes, Angel Lola Luv, Meagan Good.
Not light: Kelly Rowland, Gabrielle Union, Buffie the Body, Ki Toy Johnson, Tyra Banks, Naomi Campbell, Estelle, Toccara Jones.
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See, the term “light” is REALLY TOO SUBJECTIVE.
Meagan, Angel, and Lauren are not light to me, at all. That’s the first time I’ve seen Meagan and Angel described as “light”. Lauren is more caramel-complexioned, which to me is medium-brown.
It’s funny, I’ve seen Tyra described as “light skinned” several times online. Sometimes by non-blacks.
It’s all such a matter of individual perspective.
For me, when it comes to a “shade scale” for people of African descent, I think it goes like this:
FAIR= pale, depigmentated (ex. Lena Horne, Alicia Keys, Harold Ford,Jr.)
LIGHT BROWN= tannish/beige-toned/yellow-tinted (ex. Rihanna, Amy Holmes, Paula Patton)
MEDIUM BROWN= caramel/solid mid-range brown tones (ex. most of the black women in the media ranging from Meagen Good to Gabrielle Union to Sanaa Lathan to Toccarra to Condoleeza)
DARK BROWN= darker shades of brown (ex. Estelle, Bria Myles, India.Arie)
VERY DARK BROWN= very dark shades of brown (ex. Alek Wek, Akon, Michael Jordan, Wesley Snipes)
The overwhelming majority of black folks, in the US, from my observations, would easily fit into the Medium Brown and Dark Brown categories. Light Brown would be a visible minority, as well as Very Dark Brown types.
The majority of the black women in the media (TV, film, ads, music, politics, etc.) would fall comfortably into the Medium Brown category. Alot of Light Brown and Dark Brown types are also visible.
Do you agree with the scale and the assessment?
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I agree with everything you just said except that Angel and Meagan Good still seem light to me.
Meagan Good: In Google Images, she is more often medium than light, so I can see why you would disagree, but sometimes she does look light. It might just be a matter of which pictures of her stick in our heads. I mainly remember her from “You Got Served”:
In that picture she does not look any darker than Omarion, who I have never seen as particularly light, so maybe her hair affects my judgement too. And Hollywood lighting.
Angel Lola Luv: I mainly remember Angel from King magazine and there she is light:
Again, in Google Images she looks both light and medium – to me. It might be that her lightness comes more from Photoshop than God.
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When judging someone’s skin tone (or any facet of their physical appearance overall), it’s important to keep in mind how lighting can be a big part of that.
Meagan and Angel probably, like any black person, look “lighter” in certain pics and clips because of LIGHTING, as well as makeup. I’ve seen several pics of both ladies in CANDID settings, and there’s nothing pale, yellow-ish tinted, beige-ish or tannish about their color at all. They’re all solidly brown, they’re in normal range as most other black folks.
But then again, it’s all a matter of subjectivity. They may very well be “light and bright” to you, based on your perspective of color and what you’ve seen before.
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I can grant that they are probably medium keeping in mind all the tricks Hollywood and magazines can play with how a person looks.
But I also think each person and each part of the country draws the line a bit differently.
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Exactly. That’s what I’ve been trying to emphasize all this time about that matter.
To show how much of an individual opinion an assessment of someone’s physical appearance is:
The Bollywood actress, Bipasha Basu, talks about the racial abuse she has endured from whites as well as the discrimination she’s faced in her home country of India as a woman who is “dark skinned” in this article-
http://www.gobollywood.com/interview/2007/12/racial-abuse-bipasha.html
I have heavy doubts that Basu would be considered “dark skinned” by any black person. It just goes to show you, that there is no definitive answer at all. It’s fluid and individual. It’s all about personal perception and locality.
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Wow. I never once thought of Bipasha Basu as dark-skinned! I even put her at #8 in my list of the most beautiful white women:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2007/06/16/the-most-beautiful-white-women/
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LOL. You’re the reverse of the editors of these white-women-ridden “sexy women” lists, huh? Just like they put non-white women on their list to fufill a sense of false sense of “diversity”, a large portion of the ‘white’ ladies on your list would never be classified or perceived as such in the U.S.!
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LOL. I know, I have to work on those lists 😉
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Dear Unique says,
I had to respond to your comment because 1 i sense some anger or hurt directed towards darker skinned black women and also because I think you misunderstand some of the views on this topic generally. Nobody is saying that at least one dark skinned wome should be put on this list because she is dark skinned.
I believe the view many are trying to put across is that dark skinned beauty is not appreciated by the wider society in spite of the fact that many of these women have dark skinned ancestors.
Of course these women are beautiful no one doublts that at least generally. But it begs the question in some minds that is so it difficult to find dark skinned women’ beauty en par with the majority of the women .
No one some pity number to be on every list but what i suspect we want is that our features who we are what you see in the flesh everyday to be appreciated.
to you it may boil down to lack of self esteem or self hate but no one is born tis way we are conditioned this way based on particular practices in our culture and media.
yes the bold and brave thing to do would be to get over it and love yourself, and there are some who manage to do that and I applaud them. but i believe for the majority of us its not you find yourself wanting to straighten your hair and all sorts of ridiculous things that would be too exhausting to mention.
The point is when a whole group in a society or culture are voicing similar complaints something has to be going wrong in respect of ho0w they are treated (apartheid). The aforementioned does not automatically exclude the fact that we ought to take responsibility for own well being but ultimately to accomplish any thing or progress you need two hands to clap and its more efficient in that way anyway
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Where’s Rihanna?
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Rihanna did not make enough lists. Sorry.
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Theres no question that the women on the ten most beautiful black women list, are beautiful that is undeniable and is not the issue.
Where most black people would object to, is not neccessarily to do with those women being light skinned or having almost European features, but its that its always been those kind of women who are chosen from day one, white people have never accepted our differences the very dark skin tone and typical negroe features they’ve only ever shown attractive black women in their TV shows and Movies who look light skin and have almost European features, whilst the unattractive and obese roles are given to dark skin women with typical black features.
Someone mentioned that some white women didn’t make a most beautiful women in the World list and yet you don’t get white people or white women complaining,but I bet they weren’t left out cause they looked too Causcian or that their skin was too pale.
Try Imagining a world where the only attractive white women shown in the media were those who have almost negroid features( not just the lips) and who had very dark skinned how would white people feel then.
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They’ve “only” shown “light skinned” black women with “European” features?
You sure about that?
The reality may be the opposite. You’re right, there’s never been that many EXTREMELY DARK black women, but to say that the only or that ‘most’ of the black women who are attractive and presented as such in the industry all look white is an untruth.
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What I meant to have said was that the American media has only shown attractive black women who are “either” light skinned “or” have almost European features,you just can’t in their eyes be dark skinned with typical black features and be attractive.
The black media, black Rap and R&B artist, as well the so called civil rights groups are just as responsible, for you don’t hear them objecting to this practice or standing up for dark skin black women with typical black features, infact when have you ever heard any black church the so called moral voice for the black community speak out against this, even the Nation of Islam and all their rants about black impowerment stand silent on this one.
I believe that model Alek Wek and Grace Jones were chosen cause they look different even amongst dark skin women with negroid features, not cause they were beautiful, I don’t believe that those two black women are the best that dark skin women have to offer, I’ve seen better looking, black people need to feel more proud about how they look and their features, something we never have since white people came along, who for their part have endevoured to make us feel insecure about ourselves.
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Hmm …interesting angle, Ryon.
What do you make of Oluchi? She’s one of the top black runway models out now. Nigerian woman. She’s gotten some big deal deals. She might appeal to your tastes, as she is a “typical black girl”, by your standards.
Check out the last issue of Ebony, with Michelle Obama (a beautiful, high-achieving sister who’s VERY representative of everyday black women, physically). There’s a great spread with a Native African model within. Also check out the current issue of Essence with Mo’Nique (ditto w/ Michelle). Another great spread within with beautiful black women of ALL TYPES. You might like it. If you can’t find both magazines at a local newstand or book store, try a local library. The images are defintely out there. You can’t expect to read Seventeen or Glamour and except to see non-white women represented properly.
Grace Jones and Alek Wek are not exceptions. They’re just among the most well known. There’s more black women who might appeal to your tastes, but they are more known among high fashion industry circles than the mainstream entertainment press (which covers mostly white individuals). If you want, I can refer you to some of them (because there’s many).
You can’t rely on the mainstream media to make you feel good. They are there to make money. And even if you do put a bunch of “extremely dark skinned” black women with “typical black features” (which are???; what if you’re a full blooded African who has a narrow nose or slim lips???) on a slew of US covers and whatnot, the segment of people who have negative feelings about such a look will have their outlook unchanged. It’s less about the media and more about an overall societal attitude that deems blackness as “less than”.
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I have to agree with Ryon: the true range of beauty of black women is largely missing from the mainstream media in America. There is mainly just:
1. Kind of white looking (Halle Berry, Beyonce and most of those listed above)
2. Cutesy pie (Gabrielle Union, Sanaa Lathan, Vivica Fox)
3. “Exotic” (Alek Wek, Grace Jones, Iman)
And most of them are thin too.
But you can see way more than that just walking down the street.
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I agree Abagond,
But why do so many blacks look to the mainstream media to represent them in their full scope? I mean, it’s obvious where “they” feel that blacks ‘stand’. The white-ran media wil never elevate black beauty to the same level as white beauty because they would promote equality and how does this country function without the racial divide???
Also, like I said, even if they did show the true range of black beauty, the same people, white and non-white, will still have their aversions to it. It’s less about ‘standards of beauty’ (although that plays a part) and more about the overall attitude about blackness. Don’t you agree?
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Excuse me for my ignorance mynameismyname I can’t say I have heard of Oluchi, and I will try to look out for those magazine issues.
I have to say that of late I have avoided black American beauty magazines, cause in the past I have found them trying to judge black beauty by white standards like trying to fit square pegs into round holes and I’ve found the same with modelling industry.
It is hard to delve deeper and try to find decent images of attractive dark skin women with typical black features I wouldn’t know where to look, I’ve “googled” attractive black women and all I get is the light skinned or those with almost European features perphaps you(mynameismyname) could give me some black models and I could look them up on google.
Your right some races in Africa like certain tribes in Ethopia and the somalians have very narrow noses and some of them have comparatively small lips.
Someone once posted a picture of some Nigerian models on a blog page but even though they were mostly dark skinned and had black features, I hope I’m not being picky but most West Africans I’ve met don’t have oval faces and to be fair it doesn’t suit you if you have certain features, they should have been true to themselves.
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[This comment is from mynameismyname. For some reason he had trouble posting it, so I am posting it for him]
Ryon C,
You are picky! LOL. I kid.
One site that I can refer you to is http://gorgeousblackwomen.blogspot.com/. There’s defintely a variety of women on there as well as some examples of the black look that you are looking for.
Tell me what you think about Oluchi.
As far as some examples of the look that you’re talking about, perhaps: Ajuma, Rachael Williams, Januel McKenzie, Honorie Uwera, Valery Prince, Tomiko Fraser, Abgani Darego, Nina Keita, Kiara Kabukuru. There’s more even though those are the ones that I can remember off the top of my head. I can refer you to more if you want, of various beauty queens and models as the such.
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Wow, I remember Kiara!
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“Also, like I said, even if they did show the true range of black beauty, the same people, white and non-white, will still have their aversions to it. It’s less about ’standards of beauty’ (although that plays a part) and more about the overall attitude about blackness. Don’t you agree?”
Yes, I think it is partly standards of beauty, partly feelings about blackness but, in the case of whites, I wonder how much of it is just inborn:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/05/27/is-beauty-hard-wired/
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I have some beautiful dark skin black women you could do a image search on, using google and they are cleo higgins, michelle gayle and nia jai
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Thanks for the suggestions! I like how Cleo looks.
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I am of Jamaican origin but find that they can be unapologetically predjucial towards dark skin black women in their beauty contest and media productions, I see them as being one of the worst culprits amongst black people when it comes to this, and for a island of 90 odd per cent black people and where most are dark skin there behaviour I find is quite backwards .
For those who are unaware of Jamaica’s colonial past, when the British ruled they used have a caste system whereby people were classed or socially graded according to the colour of their skin, thus the lighter you were, the better you were treated, the higher positions you were given, and the more you were paid.
But that still makes no excuses.
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I’m aware of Jamaica’s particular history of colorism. Their beauty paegants used to be infamous examples of such discrimination. The women who would win were always very racially ambigious or sometimes, white-looking. Very unrepresenative of a country thats 90% black African-derived. (Thanks to the slave revolt that occurred on the island, black Jamaicans are far less “mixed” than black Americans).
Yet, the tide seems to be changing, perhaps. Zahra Redwood, a very pretty Rastafarian lady, won Miss Jamaica last year. Defintely a breakthrough. A positive one, and hopefully, a step in a better, more represenative (and unbiased) direction.
Here’s the contestants of this year’s Miss Jamaica World: http://www.missjamaicaworld.com/content/home/
Brittany Lyon won.
Ryon, is the color caste system weakened nowdays in Jamaica or is it still present?
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It is still present though not as bad as it used to be, though their beauty shows still have some way to go.
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i feel like halle,beyonce,tyra,mariah,and thandie are overrated.dont get me wrong they are pretty but they are so overrated it aint even funny.like if you saw halle berry in the street or beyonce in the street and they were not famous you would not be calling them the most beautiful black women alive.you would say oh shes really pretty.vanessa williams,alicia keys,iman,and angela bassett are so underrated they should be in the top 4 spots.iman vanessa and angela just because they look so good to be so old.also someone on here said something about rihanna being lighter than lauren london.that is complete bs.also skin color dont mean shit to genetics.
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DCnot240,
You must be fairly young! “So good to be so old”?! What are you trying to say? 🙂 Black don’t crack! That’s why so many black women (and other women of color) remain so physically youthful and stunning in their mature years.
As far as your opinion of the various female celebs looks, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Personally w/ the exception of Angela, Iman, and maybe Vanessa back in the bay, I don’t think that any of the other women listed above are anything special. Far from ugly but I wouldn’t look twice if I saw them in the street. Neither would many of their civilian admirers.
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I agree with both of you: Beyonce and Halle are good looking, but they are hardly the best looking black women out there. Of the women on this list, I think Angela Bassett is by far the most beautiful.
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Oh, these women are really ugly and only considered beautiful because they have white blood in them.
ARE YOU FUCKING STUPID????!!!!!!!! I don’t care if you’re black, white, grey, brown, yellow, red or blotchy splotchy. These women are gorgeous.
Fag.
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left out gabrielle union….she is too pretty.
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Jerome: no one, black or white, said any of these women were ugly.
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ebz: Gabrielle Union is beautiful and even in a way that I think white people like, but she is mainly in “black” films, those where most of the cast is black, so she is not as well known to whites as the women above. The same goes for Nia Long.
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Why do you care what white people think? It’s about time black people told whites where to go.
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I agree, Black Brazillian!
Who gives a crap what whites think? We already know how they roll. Although, I think these lists are interesting from a social standpoint, I wouldn’t use them as the indicator of what a whole segment of people think about beauty. Remember, a small group of editors created these lists referenced above, not the general public. Those editors, for better or worse, do not represent general white taste. They represent a specific publication/website that doesn’t want to deviate too far from their aesthetic.
About Gabby Union: She’s been in several “white” films (Bring It On, Ten Things I Hate About You, etc.). She’s also made People’s 50 Most Beautiful People In The World this year as well as the Maxim 100 and other mostly-white vanity lists. So, they know who she is.
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Oh, cool (about Gabby).
On caring what white people think:
On one level, yes, who cares. Instead of complaining, for example, that Vogue does not care for black beauty or fashion, blacks should create their own Vogue and their own fashion industry. I know it is easier said than done, but Black America has more money than all of Brazil, which has its own fashion industry and supermodels.
On another level, though, white America has the power to affect how the whole world thinks through their huge media machine. So what they think does matter, unfortunately.
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You’re right, what white America thinks does color worldwide attitude.
However, black Americans DO have their own venues for fashion and beauty. It’s just since blacks are in the minority in the U.S., you wouldn’t be bombarded with these images as you would with the white mainstream ones.
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I’m sorry but your statistics are incorrect and your last statement of “half these women have a white or near white mother” is also incorrect. Irregardless of the mixture of these women, it is their black features that stand out and makes them considered beautiful amongst white America. And I truly hope that you are not implying that if one is mixed, then they are better and seemingly more attractive!
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There are nine women. Four have white mothers: Halle, Thandie, Mariah and Alicia. A fifth has a near-white mother: Beyonce. Yes, Beyonce’s mother is black, no question about it, but her look is what I am counting as near-white in this case. Here is a picture of Beyonce with her mother, Tina Knowles:
So that is five out of nine: 56%. Over half.
Yes, I do think that their being mixed is what helped to get them on the list. That is the most straightforward conclusion.
The way Beyonce, Mariah and Halle have all become whiter looking as time goes by supports the idea that it is their whiteness, not their blackness, that white America likes in their looks.
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I agree 100% with your comment above, Aba. The only correction I have to make is about Thandie Newton. Her mother is black (a Shona princess), it’s her father who is white.
Just to play the devil’s advocate, what’s particularly racist about people who have an Eurocentric standard of beauty liking black women who look whiter? If you’re into white women, that’s all you’ve seen and therefore, what you base beauty on, then wouldn’t the non-white who look closest to that be the ones that’ll appeal to you?
I think the whitewashing that has occurred over time with the majority of the women listed above is pathetic. But I can understand it.
I mean, Kim Kadashian, Angelina Jolie and Jennifer Lopez are thfdd non-black American women that many black American males liked. They liked the “black”-associated features in those women. Notice that Kim and Angelina don’t look like typical Anglo white women.
Even with you, your list of “beautiful white women”, was filled with mixed race women. What’s the difference betweeen your list and several of the white-made ones? You like the non-white in those women, no? Because your racial perceptions of beauty isn’t Eurocentric.
Is that really racist? Or are people just more inclined to find people outside their race more attractive if they have features that they’re more familiar with?
Again, I’m just playing the devil’s advocate here! (I actually agree with your premise).
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Sorry, my mistake about Thandie. I had it right in the post, but wrong in my comment: it is her father, not her mother, who is white.
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mynameismyname: Right, my list of beautiful white women is a good analogue of this list. Especially before I kicked off Ann Curry, Bipasha Basu and Yasmeen Ghauri (sniff) because commenters informed me they were not white enough. What I like most in white women are things that show up more strongly in black women.
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Racism and beauty:
Some of what men prefer in women in inborn. For example, I think that most white men (not all, of course) have an inborn desire for light-skinned women. If so, then it is only natural, not racist.
On the other hand, there is in America, among many blacks and whites, this feeling that anything black is not as good as something white. That plays itself out in many ways and one of them is in a profound underappreciation of the beauty of dark-skinned women. That is racist.
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I agree 100% Abagond.
That idea that black is inherently subordinate to white is also the reason behind the dismal marriage/dating rates between black women and white (and non-black) men as well as the general underappreciation of black female beauty.
At least I believe it to be.
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To Abagond
Just out of curiosity, how did you conduct this survey? Did you poll random white people, and ask whom they found to be the most attractive black women or did you have a list already prepared for them in which all they had to do is select the women from “your” already drawn-out list of black women? I ask because I conducted a similar survey amongst white males in Texas (Austin, Dallas/Ft. Worth, Houston) and found the opposite to be true. While it is simple to say that whites are drawn to black women with euro-centric features, women such as Kerry Washington, Meagan Good, Jill-Marie Jones, and Zoe Saldana (who is of Puerto Rican and Domincan descent…still black!) where preferred and considered beautiful black women. Also light skin is not synonymous with euro centric “features”, you can be light yet have coarse hair, full lips, and a wide nose. By the way Ethiopians, Burundians, and Egyptians and many other African countries have what you would call euro-centric features and they are not white nor are they mixed with it. Therefore, I remain with my orginal statement that it is not the euro-centric features in these women that make them beautiful it is their black—African features that make them beautiful, in what shallowness would say is their “exoticism” Like your statistics on half those black women having “white mothers”, your statistics on attractive black women according to white people is also incorrect. If anything beauty should be attributed to the African features in women, you give whiteness too much credit.
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I put “the most beautiful women” into Google and then counted how many times each black woman appeared in the first 100 websites. That is what the numbers stand for. Read the post if you want to know more about how I did it and how I knew which websites were done by white people and so on.
I pointed out that so many of them had white parents because it was an extremely high number. I mean, how many ordinary black people have a white parent? A few do, but not close to half of them. Nothing like it is on this list.
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beautiful brown:
Halle Berry – white mother
Beyonce – near-white mother
Tyra Banks –
Mariah Carey – white mother
Thandie Newton – white father
Vanessa Williams –
Iman –
Angela Bassett –
Alicia Keys – white mother
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beautiful brown said: it is not the euro-centric features in these women that make them beautiful it is their black—African features that make them beautiful, in what shallowness would say is their “exoticism”………….
If anything beauty should be attributed to the African features in women, you give whiteness too much credit.
*******************
I agree with this.
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I agree 100% with Beautiful Brown. You said it perfectly.
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To correspond with Beautiful Brown, I remember looking at a lengthy thread at a very white, very “mainstream” website that saw the obviously, all-white posters discussing “the most beautiful famous black women”. Most of the women posted above were barely mentioned.
Hollywood and the general public’s idea of a beautiful black woman seems to be more in the Kerry W./Gabby U/Sanaa L. mode. (All three ladies came up heavily in that aforementioned mentioned list and they also make many “most beautiful” list complied by white editors- at least Gabby does). As someone who dabbles in the industry, I can back this up.
And I’ve also tried to explain to Aba that “light skinned” does not equate whitness, considering the fact that most black Americans who could be described as “lightly complexioned” have the same diluted West African features that supposedly “non-light skinned” people have. Most of these people DO NOT look “near white”. Not in a million years. The white/ambigious types are a smaller minority, more prevalent in certain parts of the country (Louisiana, Virginia, Maryland, D.C.) but not in general.
Again, Beautiful Brown’s comment was very on-point!
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Two questions:
1. If white people are so into black or Afrocentric beauty (cough) then why is it that Gabrielle Union did not appear more often in websites listing beautiful women? And why have Beyonce, Halle and Mariah made the cover of American Maxim but she has not if she is so good looking to white people?
2. Gabrielle, Sanaa and Kerry all have what I call a cutsie-pie face, which Hollywood (but certainly not the fashion industry!) prefer in its women, white or black. Would you say these women have a Eurocentric face or an Afrocentric face or neither?
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How can you even define what Afrocentric and Euro centric looks like? Aren’t people way too diverse for that?
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Aba,
A few months back I listed a few findings about UPDATED (your list are older since your entry is from some time back) lists that selected white editors comprised of “hot” famous women. Gabby and Kerry showed up several times. Zoe Saldana and Joy Bryant- to my surpise, considering that they are not tabloid darlings- also appeared several times as well.
And why do you use irrelevant lists made by a few EDITORS as indicators of what “White America” likes????
That’s like a white person reading a few back issues of Black Enterprise and Jet and concluding afterwards, “This is what black businessmen do” or “This is what black people think”.
You’ll never know what white Americans(because of course they are all the same, right?) find attractive in black women. It’s impossible to get a comprehensive overview. The world just doesn’t work like that. You should know that.
What me and Beautiful Brown are realistically suggesting is that: EVERYTHING IS NOT AS CUT AND DRY AS YOU AND MANY OTHERS MAKE IT OUT TO BE.
It’s complex and not rigid.
You can lazily say “Oh, white people like light skinned black chicks because they’re not real black women anyway” but you have to explain why Tajaru Henson and Viola Davis are the only black women who received Oscar nomations this season. Neither are those women “look white”. This is merely an example, of course.
And Serendipity is correct, what is Afrocentric? Eurocentric? So, Somalis, Ethiopians and Eritreans have “Eurocentric” features even tho they have no trace of Euro blood??? Same with many West Africans? Irishmen have Afrocentric features because they tend to have kinky, tight hair? East Asians have “Afrocentric” features because many have broad noses??
What is a true “Afrocentric” woman? Jet black complexion, extremely tightly curled Afro, broad nose, thick, wide lips and big eyes???? Everything else is “Eurocentric”?
Somebody else help me out here.
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It seems that Afrocentric and Eurocentric are not useful terms since they are so hard to pin down.
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AskMen.com just came out with their list of the 99 top women. Here are the black and Hispanic women who made the list (according to the blog Gorgeous Black Women):
8. Rihanna
13. Halle Berry
17. Selita Ebanks
43. Zoe Saldana
50. Beyonce Knowles
63. Dania Ramirez
77. Cassie Ventura
88. Leona Lewis
92. Alicia Keys
This comes from an online vote that ten million people took part in.
See their pictures of these nine women here:
http://gorgeousblackwomen.blogspot.com/2009/01/askmencom-top-99-women-of-2009.html
See the whole list starting with #99:
http://www.askmen.com/specials/2009_top_99/kate-winslet-99.html
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Yeah, the terms “Afrocentric” and “Eurocentric” are extremely useless.
Askmen.com poll: OK, it seems like you missed the whole gist of what I was saying above.
You’ll never get a real view of what “white America” thinks of “black beauty”, no matter how many useless internet lists one comes up with.
So, usually when white men are romantically involved with a black woman, they don’t look near-white. We’ve discussed this several times.
On the mainstream media front, Queen Latifah, Miss Union, Zoe Saldana, Mary J. Blige and Angela Bassett all made People Magazine’s 50 Most Beautiful Women recently. Michelle Obama won some white fashion ‘zine’s “Most Stylish Woman Of The Year” award. Jennifer Hudson’s made the cover of Vogue, Beyonce Knowles has not.
….I could go on.
What does this prove?
Cut and dry? Or a bit more complex???
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Ha, I didn’t know Irishmen had kinky hair. And yes I think what “white America” thinks of “black beauty” is too complicated to put into words
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I agree with that. Otherwise this post would not stretch into over a hundred comments!
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mynameismyname said:
Askmen.com poll: OK, it seems like you missed the whole gist of what I was saying above.
No, I read about it last night and was going to throw it in here regardless.
I know that going by what white editors of magazines and websites is of limited use and can only suggest rather than prove. But the thing is, it is part of what little we have to go by – in addition to Hollywood, the fashion industry and who we see white men go out with. The trouble is that each of those four things gives a different sort of answer.
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mynameismyname said:
So, usually when white men are romantically involved with a black woman, they don’t look near-white. We’ve discussed this several times.
Not only that but I wrote a post on it where I said pretty much that:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/05/28/black-women-that-white-men-like/
But you said there is no one “type” and thought I was overly struck by the fact that the women were not near-white.
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“The trouble is that each of those four things gives a different sort of answer.”
Exactly. What I’ve been trying to say all this time.
Do you think it’s weird, on some level, that you seem extremely fixated on what you think white people think of black beauty? (and black people, in general) In a socialogical way, it’s interesting, sure. But damn. I mean, you’ll never get a clear answer, as we all can agree on. Why not try to explore how actual black women think of their beauty? Who are the most beautiful famous black women according to black Americans, per se? That means more, in my opinion. Like a poster before me said, you give whites way too much credit. They are not the standard and their (perceived) opinion does not hold more weight. Hell, did the majority of them vote from Obama? No. But did Obama still make it to the White House? Yes.
And yes, there really is no ONE “type” of women that ANY man goes for. It’s all individual. And yes, you admitted that it fascinated you that near-white looking women weren’t the ones with white men. To you, they’re the obvious choice to the
general person. To me, they are not. They do not represent the great majority of black women, anywhere in the world. And they are not seen as the height of beauty to everyone either. Not matter what random internet lists, disgrunted anonymous internet posters or anyone else tells says.
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I’m sorry Abagond, but correct me if I am wrong but Askmen.com is not solely for white men and a plethora of men from various ethnicities are allowed to poll aside from the white male…which would conclude what? That the list mentioned above is inconclusive to what white men find attractive. Faulty data and poor research but that is neither here nor there. I am assuming that you do not agree with the research that you found because your personal list was drastically different from this one, but you seem to insinuate that white people find only, as you would say, women with a white parent or near white look attractive. I concur immensely with Mynameismyname “It’s impossible to get a comprehensive overview. The world just doesn’t work like that.” and to further expound on this concept why is it that we place these aspects of beauty upon black women?
It is sad that society places black women in a box and even worst when other black Americans try to place confines on black beauty…I never have to argue the case that Morris Chestnut, Denzel Washington, Will Smith, Shemar Moore and etc. are handsome black men and even more surprising I never have to break down their attractiveness according to western societal ideals. They are handsome and society finds them handsome because they just are! They are good looking men but when it comes to the beauty of our women, we dissect and separate those aspects of what should be merely an attractive black woman into “oh she’s attractive FOR a black woman and why is this?, ‘O cause she looks white and has those Eurocentric feautres!” That is insulting and degrading. Afrocentric or Euro-centric, if these terms are too broad to define then how about this Abagond, these woman amongst many other beautiful black sistas are beautiful, there is something that is attractive about them and that either stands out to some and not to others, that is appealing to most but not to all; eliminate euro-centricism and come to the conclusion that people find them attractive because They Just Are! But I thank you for your post it has enlightened me greatly and given me the desire to pursue further studies African-American Culture and black-women in western society. God-bless!
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Beautiful Brown said it best.
For what it’s worth:
I’m currently watching the E! channel. They’re reviewing celebrity red carpet appearal. They (all white panel) were raving over some new black actress who has a very nice rich, even dark brown complexion. They were raving about how beautiful she is and how the eveness of her skin made her yellow ensemble even more beautiful. Then they went on to fawn over Taraji Henson. They were the only two black women who’ve appeared on this specific show.
Like I was saying, not so cut and dry.
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I think there is a confusion with race and ethnicity. As a Cape Verdean, i know i am of black african decent, but if someone asks me what I am, I say cape verdean, because why would anyone ask you what race you are? why would i ask a frenchman if he is white? my culture is that of the republic of cape verde. It’s unique and different from other black cultures. just like the African American culture is different from the Nigerian etc…
Africans come from all walks of life,cultures, religions, etc. As far as the lightskinned thing, it’s just stupidity. Cape Verde was one of the points of the slave trade so people from all over the world would stop there, West Africans, Arabs, Indians and European etc. and there was definately alot of mixing so genetically 80% of the country is mixed. And this thing about “afro features” can get really confusing fast, for example there are people in west africa who have many different types of features who are pure africans. Features vary from region to region.
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I agree with loli and I loved when he/she said, “why would I ask a frenchman if he is white?”
I also don’t like just calling myself black because there is so much variety in everyone’s racial background and because there is so much variety in the places that black people come from. I also get so tired of all the many arguments over who is this and who is that. And then the different terms for blacks in American (black, African American, Black American), and the whole Tiger Woods argument. Just looking at him I would guess he was Filipino, or something, anyway, so in the end, what does it all matter.
Depending on who’s asking or where I am, I would call myself American, or Liberian, or Liberian American. I noticed that when I was in Europe (specifically Prague)the shopkeeper wasn’t satisfied when I told him that I was from American. “But where are you really from?” he’d asked me again, and so I just told him I was Liberian.
He was from Algeria and he thought that I would be Sudanese, which is completely off the mark.
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I’ve already commented enough on this thread (LOL) but …
Thanks Loli for setting the record straight about Cape Verdeans.
For perspective, some famous black women I’ve heard actual white people cite as beautiful:
The safe, “black-but-not-too-black” trio of Berry/Knowles/Williams (of course); Lauryn Hill, Gabrielle Union, Queen Latifah, Ashanti, Diana Ross, Kelly Rowland, Michael Michelle, Stacey Dash (in the case of the last two, the individuals didn’t know their names but referred to them).
Overall, I can say that whites as a whole, expectedly, find white women as vastly more attractive than other race BUT don’t hesitate to complement an East Asian, South Asian (no matter how dark they were), non-black Hispanic, or any other women of color EXCEPT …
a black woman. It seemed that it was taboo for most whites to compliment a black woman’s beauty. Yet not so much for any other non-white woman.
Have your real-time observations proved similar, Aba or any other poster?
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i can only speak for myself – but I compliment black womens beauty all the time.
I sat getting my nail done and I look up to see a women walk in. Deep coco colored skin with that amazing golden undertone. She had on no make up. She was wearing a floral print dress, the colors in the flowers highlighting her skin tone even more. High cheek bones, a large full mouth and almonde shaped eyes, so dark I couldnt see the pupils. Her hair was was worn pulled back in a braid. As she sat next to me I asked her if she was a model. She laughs, she is US Army on leave. I tell her that she is very beautiful. That was over a year ago and I still remember her. Mostly because she was so stunning, yet it was natural. No makeup, no jewerly, nothing artificial.
she is not the only one, I make it a habit to compliment anyones beauty when I see it (race is not a determining factor). People should not limit their ability to experience beauty in this life. we have enough ugly things to deal with – beauty should be welcomed.
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In my experience, white men praising the beauty of black women, apart from the usual suspects (Halle, Rihanna, etc), is very rare. Like if I heard a white man talking about the beauty of, say, Chaka Khan my mouth would drop open in amazement. Even Phylicia Rashad. I would expect some of them to say that Sade is beautiful because she is half white, but I have never heard it.
What I do hear sometimes is that so-and-so is “pretty for a black girl”.
What I have noticed is that an amazing looking black woman can walk right by a white man and he does not even give her a first look, much less a second look.
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Correction…THESE ARE NOT BLACK WOMEN. THEY ARE WOMEN OF MIXED RACE! JUST AS IT IS STUPID TO CALL JAPANESE BLACK BECAUSE THEY DO NOT HAVE WHITE BLOOD…IT IS STUPID TO CALL THESE WOMEN BLACK! THANK YOU!
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Hello, I don’t usually engage in blog conversation, let alone about race(I’m a black East African in England in case you’re wondering) but this blog sparked my interest when I started to wonder how much time this ‘blogger’ has on his/her hands to conduct research, break down statistics, compile lists and scour the vast internet for scattered, random (predominantly)white male opinions.
If I may ask the blogger ‘abagond’, are you are a white man, woman, black, mixed, what? I don’t see any mention of your ethnicity anywhere and thus where you are coming from with these lists. I have gathered that you are married to a black woman but you seem to want people to think, or simply leave them to think that, you are a white man. Well, are you?
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On another note, why are there seemingly more white men(globally) who fawn over Naomi Campbell as opposed to Tyra Banks; especially in comparison to black men?
Are they clouded by her immense international model status(thus conditioned) or do they truly prefer her skin tone to that of Tyra Banks, just as most white men in real life do of black women?
A bit of both perhaps?
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It seemed that it was taboo for most whites to compliment a black woman’s beauty. Yet not so much for any other non-white woman.
———————————————
Hi ‘mynameismyname’. I particularly love your posts, you don’t seem to take things just how they are presented to you(if you know what I mean).
Hmm…why would it be taboo? Is it because of America’s violent racial history? What harm would a compliment cause?
I have never thought about all this but you and others are making me delve deeper. In England this is not so. A beautiful woman is a beautiful woman. Whether they are in the media or not.
Media here is dominated by blond buxom women. Most women here sport blonde anyways.
But many white men here still like the exotic black woman from Caribs or Africa, unless they are a white nationalist(but even so…)
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Thanks Melissa in UK,
Your posts are very insightful. America has a DEEPLY harsh racial history, one that still resonates quite strongly (under the surface, of course). This effects every aspect of American perception, right down to simple ideas of beauty. This explains why many white Americans seem to find it taboo to simply acknowledge the beauty of a black woman.
Because of the nasty, ingrained concept of “black” and white”, ‘white’ is beauty, privilege, wealth and purity. ‘Black’, of course, is meant to be the opposite: ugly, disavantaged, poor and impure. By contradicting these ideals, Americans are throwing off the deeply ingrained racial heirachy.
At least that’s how I see it.
Naomi is a far bigger commidity than Tyra globally. However, I don’t find Naomi and Tyra to be that different in skin shade. Naomi actually appeared on Tyra’s show during its first season, there wasn’t a dramatic color contrast between either women. They are both known for having light eyes (Naomi- contacts; Tyra- hers) and long weaves and falls. I don’t think they look that different from each other. Other than Naomi being a world class beauty by any standard while Tyra has a look that’s more unique than beautiful. In my opinion, of course.
The question of Abagond’s “race” has been pondered before by multiple posters, including myself, but he’s yet to divulge that information. His biographical page does mention being a West Indian immigrant. But that doesn’t answer the question of his actual race, since a West Indian could be of any ethnic concoction.
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Because of the nasty, ingrained concept of “black” and white”, ‘white’ is beauty, privilege, wealth and purity. ‘Black’, of course, is meant to be the opposite: ugly, disavantaged, poor and impure. By contradicting these ideals, Americans are throwing off the deeply ingrained racial heirachy.
———————————————-
Hmm…interesting. And by throwing off these racial heirarchies, they might lose the virtue that comes with being white i.e. economic, social and political status.
However…when someone knows the truth and they see a beautiful woman, no conditioning will be able to alter that truth. I have a feeling they know it at the backs of their minds but have succeeded in putting up a front so to speak. As long as they are in America anyways.
You will be surprised at the number of white(especially american, italian) male expatriates who are hired out by american companies to go work in oil refineries in West Africa. These men almost always end up never leaving Nigeria long after their contracts have expired, having gotten used to the black women there, if you know what I mean. It is a debated issue in Africa, these thousands of white expatriates with black girlfriends half their age.
Has this ever been reported in America, as widespread as it is?
Or will it be indicating that the white male will forever crave the black body?
These black girls get their education paid for and end up becoming basically the expatriate’s wife, even if he has abandoned his family back in the western world.
In east africa, where I am from it is mostly(but not only) the Italians and Germans who do this pseudo sex tourism which is being combatted by our governments.
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The british men in Zimbabwe and portuguese men in Angola is another issue altogether. They will continue to exploit the poor black women there and since this is not reported as much as the asia sex tourism is reported, it only increases year by year because no one does a damn thing about it.
It leads to spread of diseases, unwanted pregnancy(getting a half-caste kid by a 50 year old white guy?!!!), jealousy murder etc…
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Our kenyan government is so lenient to these so-called tourists it is not even funny…
Italians and their sex-capades in East Africa
http://www.eturbonews.com/7126/italians-and-their-sexcapades-east-africa
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dedabets Says:
Fri 20 Feb 2009 at 16:14:39
“i can only speak for myself – but I compliment black womens beauty all the time.
I sat getting my nail done and I look up to see a women walk in. Deep coco colored skin with that amazing golden undertone. She had on no make up. She was wearing a floral print dress, the colors in the flowers highlighting her skin tone even more. High cheek bones, a large full mouth and almonde shaped eyes, so dark I couldnt see the pupils. Her hair was was worn pulled back in a braid. As she sat next to me I asked her if she was a model. She laughs, she is US Army on leave. I tell her that she is very beautiful. That was over a year ago and I still remember her. Mostly because she was so stunning, yet it was natural. No makeup, no jewerly, nothing artificial.
she is not the only one, I make it a habit to compliment anyones beauty when I see it (race is not a determining factor). People should not limit their ability to experience beauty in this life. we have enough ugly things to deal with – beauty should be welcomed.”
I am not shy about complimenting a lady on her appearance. The compliments are usually well received, because I am very respectful about it.
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beautiful brown Says:
“To Abagond
Just out of curiosity, how did you conduct this survey? Did you poll random white people, and ask whom they found to be the most attractive black women or did you have a list already prepared for them in which all they had to do is select the women from “your” already drawn-out list of black women? I ask because I conducted a similar survey amongst white males in Texas (Austin, Dallas/Ft. Worth, Houston) and found the opposite to be true. While it is simple to say that whites are drawn to black women with euro-centric features, women such as Kerry Washington, Meagan Good, Jill-Marie Jones, and Zoe Saldana (who is of Puerto Rican and Domincan descent…still black!) where preferred and considered beautiful black women. Also light skin is not synonymous with euro centric “features”, you can be light yet have coarse hair, full lips, and a wide nose. By the way Ethiopians, Burundians, and Egyptians and many other African countries have what you would call euro-centric features and they are not white nor are they mixed with it. Therefore, I remain with my original statement that it is not the euro-centric features in these women that make them beautiful it is their black—African features that make them beautiful, in what shallowness would say is their “exoticism” Like your statistics on half those black women having “white mothers”, your statistics on attractive black women according to white people is also incorrect. If anything beauty should be attributed to the African features in women, you give whiteness too much credit.”
Beautiful Brown, the only thing I disagree with is your statement “beauty should be attributed to the African features” in these women. That sounds too exclusionary, just as it would to say “beauty should be attributed to the European features” in women. I think we should be more inclusive of the wide varieties of beauty.
But I agree with everything else you said. I am not surprised by the results of your own survey among white men. Your findings contradict the mythology that all white people are supposed to think alike or think a certain way. That is total nonsense; we are all individuals. Thanks for sharing that.
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Mynameismyname Says:
“I’ve also tried to explain to Aba that “light skinned” does not equate whiteness, considering the fact that most black Americans who could be described as “lightly complexioned” have the same diluted West African features that supposedly “non-light skinned” people have. Most of these people DO NOT look “near white”. Not in a million years.”
Mynameismyname, that is true. Tyra Banks, Vanessa Williams and Rihanna are all light skinned women of predominantly African descent. But few people would mistake them for Caucasian as they have “diluted West African features” as you described.
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Right, A White Guy except:
Tyra Banks isn’t light skinned in the least.
Why do people call her that?! Shadewise, she’s just an ordinary shade of medium brown. If she’s “light skinned” then so are Janet Jackson, Toni Braxton, Nia Long and Queen Latifah.
I know that perceptions of physical appearance are extremely subjective but let’s be real. Calling her “light” is describing a 5 foot 10 guy as being “tall”.
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mynameisnyname Says:
“Right, A White Guy except:
Tyra Banks isn’t light skinned in the least.”
This reminds me of someone blogging about Beyonce some months ago, suggesting that her skin was being deliberately lightened, even though she is naturally light. Yes, it is subjective and sometimes lighting in the photos can affect perceptions. She may not be as light as Rihanna or Vanessa Williams, but even if all these women had snow white skin, would you think they were caucasian women?
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A White Guy,
Hell no, Knowles, Williams and Rihanna would never ever be mistaken for European/white women. Ever. In their dreams. LOL. Like you and I both know, all three are easily of predominate West/Central African descent.
Believe it or not, tannish or yellow-ish skin isn’t exactly rare with West Africans. (Many of my WA relatives fit in this range).
Many Americans can’t seem to get it through their head but black Africans naturally have the vastest range of phenotypes. There is no dominant phenotype when it comes to black people, from pure blooded Native Africans to the moderately admixed Western blacks. It shouldn’t be a shock to see a black person with different color eyes or various shades of skin colors. To automatically attribute such things to European admixture is ignorant.
So, if you see a plump-lipped, curly haired, dark skinned “white” person (i.e. many Irishmen, Southern Europeans, etc.), you’d automatically question any possible blackness? I think not. LOL.
Yes, Beyonce’s skin was lightened in that Vanity Fair spread and in the Revlon ad. Vanity Fair admitted to this. Some find her “light skinned” in constrast to other black people. That’s relative and based primarily on perception, as we both know. But she’s still black and therefore dark skinned. Just like a swarthy Italian or Greek is dark compared to other “whites” but probably “light” in comparison to black folks.
That being said, ain’t a damn thing “light” or “white” about Miss Banks. She’s hardly “light skinned” in comparison to the rest of black Americans. She looks like a run-of-a-mill black American woman. And again, if she’s “light”, then so are Oprah, Janet Jackson, Queen Latifah and Jennifer Hudson.
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Since mutations are rare, most of the genes that make up white people come from Africa. Those genes are still in Africa, just not as common. In Jamaica I once saw a man as black as coal who had blue eyes. Maybe there was some white in his family tree, but it did not seem likely.
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mynameisnyname Says:
“Hell no, Knowles, Williams and Rihanna would never ever be mistaken for European/white women. Ever. In their dreams. LOL. Like you and I both know, all three are easily of predominate West/Central African descent.”
Mynameisnyname, my question was really rhetorical, LOL. I have to admit your ‘diluted West African’ description of Tyra, Vanessa, Beyonce and Rihanna is appropriate, but I almost never hear anyone else describe them that way. On the contrary, they are more frequently described as more European-looking. Why do you think there is such a large disparity between your perception and theirs? These women are practically universally regarded as beautiful. Do you think there is resistance in the mainstream media to acknowledge the ‘African influence’ in their beauty, as Beautiful Brown was advocating before?
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A White Guy,
Maybe as Sedmeiler was saying on another page, it’s a psychological thing with many non-blacks. They have to acknowledge an obviously black woman as being “mixed” or “white” or at least something other than black and attribute her beauty to something non-African. Look up my example from Spike Lee’s “Do The Right Thing” on the “why few white men marry black women” page, I believe.
Remember, “black” is the opposite of “white”. So if “white” is beautiful, then “black” HAS to be ugly. Turning the tables and leveling out the inequalities of such racist thinking would threaten the virtues of being white. And how would this society function without the racist divide that it was built on?
Also, as I asked on the Beyonce/L’Oreal page, why must black female beauty be so politicized? How come say, East Indian or East Asian or non-black Latinas, don’t get their looks picked apart with the same intensity by the general US society? Why? What do you think the wide disparity between black women and non-black and the way their beauty is perceived is about?
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Mynameisnyname, as far as ‘politicizing black female beauty’ I don’t perceive that happening in general US society. I almost never even hear the subject being raised at all among average day-to-day people I encounter or associate with. I mostly see it being discussed in blogs like this. I hardly ever hear a white person talk about it, except for the fringe group web sites, like stormfront. They are in the minority. I totally understand what you are saying in regard to the perception of some people finding it hard to accept an African descended woman being beautiful without attributing a non-African influence in her ancestry. I don’t feel that way, but that attitude would be prevalent among the stormfront types. You may find it interesting that many of them consider Vanessa Williams to be beautiful, but they perceive her as being predominantly Caucasian-looking, which is the opposite of your description. Isn’t that ironic?
Regarding the black and white dichotomy, being at opposition, such as beautiful versus ugly, I think it is more hype than reality. We are all individuals. I would prefer to drop the black and white labels, which are largely meaningless anyway.
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Tired says: quote: like Finland, Sweden etc saw it as a sign of beauty and wanted to breed so it was a majority thats why you will find these places are largely still blond hair and blue eyed people. To divide and conquer light skin was seen as more beautiful than black skin, black women and men where seen as objects , black people where made to hate themselves but excepted if they were lighter that is where the term “House Ni*&ger” comes in.Darker skin women were out in the sun working while lighter skin women where in the shade.”:quote.
Are you saying black people were treated like meat in Sweden & Finland too??..the only blacl people living in Sweden & Finland ( in North Europe incl Denmark, Norway, and Iceland ) are refugees, adoptees and immigrants from Africa. Africans have been here since about the early 1970`s ).. (we havent had any slave or caste-systems here, if thats what you mean).
P.S Sorry for my grammar, but english is not my first language D.S
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Why is this even a topic…so what if white people think black women who have similar features to them are prettier. As an African woman I do not care anymore if other races think I’m attractive or not…who gives damn what anyone beauty standards are. Apply it like you would in real life. If a man tells you he finds you unattractive would really try sit there discuss it with him and convince him that you are cute. MOVE ON! And if you really want get technical half of those so called light skinned women on your list have features that many full blooded Africans have.
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Stop Worrying About what White People Think Says:
“Why is this even a topic…so what if white people think black women who have similar features to them are prettier. As an African woman I do not care anymore if other races think I’m attractive or not…who gives damn what anyone beauty standards are. Apply it like you would in real life. If a man tells you he finds you unattractive would really try sit there discuss it with him and convince him that you are cute. MOVE ON! And if you really want get technical half of those so called light skinned women on your list have features that many full blooded Africans have.”
We are all individuals and taste in beauty, just as taste in food, is an individual preference. But I agree with you otherwise.
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If you are answering the previous comment you do not have to quote it in full.
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Stop Worrying:
Why I did this post:
The post I wanted to do was the opposite of this: “The most beaiutiful white women according to black people”. I have certain ideas about that but had no way of making the list in a way that was independent of those ideas. When I tried to do it, there just was not enough data – but in looking for it I found plenty for doing this list. So I did.
As to why this post got 172 comments and counting while many of my posts get none, that is another question….
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Abagond, I think you got a lot of feedback on this topic, because it has some provocative and controversial aspects to it. I was motivated to comment on this topic for a few reasons. For one, I wanted to dispel the mythology that all or most white people think alike. Statements such as “The most beautiful black women according to white people” is a generalization and a grandiose assumption. Also, I wanted to challenge the misconception that white men are only attracted to African descended women who appear ‘Euro-centric.’
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Race is not only a controversial issue, it is the basis on how our society is ran so of course, you’d get the most comments on posts dealing with racially related topics than you would on non-racial topics.
Remember, the internet gives many people the anonymity that gives them the freedom to tell it like they see it without being chastised. This also contributes with the popularity of your race-based posts.
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I know that that not all whites have a Eurocentric idea of beauty. In fact, most white men who seriously black women do not (or at least not in the way you would expect):
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/05/28/black-women-that-white-men-like/
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I am glad you acknowledge that, but I think too many people are not aware of it.
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I am a medium toned (described as golden-brown)black woman. One white male said I was ‘light’ for a black woman. A white lady said I was ‘dark’. Years ago, I dated a very dark skinned West African who said he ‘couln’t tell whether I was ‘dark’ or ‘light’– that in certain lights I was light in other lighted atmospheres ‘I was ‘dark.’ I laugh! I’d flunk the paper brown bag test in the summer (’cause of my tan) & in the winter I’d pass the test!!!! P. Diddy’s ex- model-actress Kim Porter is a very beautiful dark skinned woman. & Kimora Lee-Simmons is an exotically, beautiful ‘blasian.’ Plus, someone at the top of these replys said ‘Native American’ looks wasn’t included w/the ‘top’ beautiful black actresses. But, I think Angela Bassett has gorgeous high cheek bones & slanted or almond shaped eyes. There’s Amerindian in her, I think!
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Angela Bassett’s beautiful cheek bones and almond shaped eyes are very common among West African women, namely Nigerians.
That there are still people out there comparing themselves to paper bags shows that the more things change, the more they stay the same.
All of this color consciousness is just part of the western black pysche. I just have to accept this.
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Look, this isn’t a debate that have can one absolute answer. My opinion, is that the women on the list ARE Black women and they are GORGEOUS!! I would also add Garcelle B., Lauren Hill, Gabrielle Union, Lena Horne and Dorothy Dandride. I personally do not care what shade your skin has. To me, it’s your features that make a beautiful face.
Focus on the simple question of the poll. Is there anyone who feels that those women are NOT beautiful?
The people answering the poll simply did just that. That’s it. They answered the question. I would have picked the same women if I was asked the same question.
Why do you care who people feel is beautiful? There are beautiful and ugly people of all origins.
If black people were given a similar pole to pick pretty white women, would the results favor blondes over brunettes? Would the dominate choice have come from Sweden as opposed to Poland?
If so, would a huge debate begin?
Everyone needs to stop with this light/dark mess.
And if you are black, how can you write what a white person feels? Would you appreciate a white person expressing what they think that you feel?
The world is full of ugly & beautiful people. Just worry about whether or not you are stable, positive, resilient, strong, smart, successful, loving.
Just live your life! If you’re beautiful.. good for you. We need more beauty in this world.
If you’re ugly.. well.. um… there’s always independence (people cannot knock you for that)!
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Like I said Nice list, but it sucks without Raven-Symone on it. Make A New list with Raven, and Monique Coleman on it they are both Hot! White folks love them too.
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I do not remember them making any lists of any white person’s most beautiful women.
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Comment no 116… I concur.
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MSDAY, QUERCIANELLAM ITALIA that is the most biased post on this entire page. where the fuck do you get off thinking all white people don’t find black people beautiful? i don’t know where you grew up but i’m a white girl from dc and here it’s embarrassing to be too pale or too “white”. you must have grown up in the most racist city in the united states because i know absolutely NOBODY who would assume someone beautiful couldn’t be black. shut up and get over yourself. that was the most racist thing i’ve ever heard.
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Here is my type of women that I’d worship the ground she walks on..;-) Carolina Indriago, the 1st Venezuelan Woman of African Descent to represent in the 1999 Miss Universe and placed in top 5 although I thought she should have won hands down. Oh, well, at least she lost to another Black womean from Botswana, Africa that year..;-) Carolina, considered Black by Venezuelans, also has heritage from Indigeonous and Spaniard as well. This is my standard of Beauty so I guess I see why I’m still single ..lol One pic is back in 1999 and the other is in today’s present. sincerely, The HotBlooded Panamanian
http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/1328/3344066…
http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/9227/1999ven…
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Here it is again to open..;-)
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how about taraji p. henson,angela basset,melyssa ford,stacey dash,tamala jones,deborah cox,naomi campbell,jada pinkett smith,lynn whitfield,pam greer- that is a nice top 10 don’t you think.
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how about taraji p. henson,angela basset,melyssa ford,stacey dash,tamala jones,deborah cox,naomi campbell,jada pinkett smith,lynn whitfield,pam greer- that is a nice top 10 don’t you think. and i have to add number 11-mya Harrison.
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Who cares what whites call beautiful. African women dominated beauty in the Bible and history for centuries. Even Romans and other acients went after Black women like cleopatra, Bernice, Ruth,just to name a few. Moses married and Ethiopian woman, king david married bathsheba. They were not creole or half white. Who loves ya Baby !!!
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What is most obvious about these women is that they have a lot of white blood in them. I guess that is why white people find them more attractive. Their skin is lighter and their noses and mouths are not as wide as the average black womans. This is an obvious observation, but no one will point it out because it is so politically incorrect and uncomfortable. Sorry for being so blunt.
Beauty standards are just not fair to black women in white countries.
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umm…i noticed that all of these women are light skinned and being a dark skinned african american, i am truly offended. Light skin isn’t the only beauty in the african american race. we come in all colors shapes and sizes. To say that a strand of our people are the only ones considered beautiful is truly offensive to the african american race. I consider myself beautiful. being dark skinned and all, and as far as i can tell, many around me think so as well so b4 u go and say that im not beautiful just because my complexion is a beautiful, smoothe, soft, rich cocoa shade of brown think about all the aspects of the black race. I’m fed up with the negitivity that dark skinned black women arent beautiful cuz we are.Look at gabrielle union, jen. hudson, kelly from destinys child, n so on in so on…they are all beautiful. In my opinion gabrielle union is amongst one of the most beautiful women in the world so go on with this shit list im not interested. Maybe when you look at the whole circle of black beauty ill listen.
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I completely agree about Gabrielle Union. This is a list of beautiful black women according to WHITE people.
Here is the same list according to BLACK people:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/02/09/the-most-beautiful-black-women-according-to-black-people/
Halle is still on top but there are way fewer half-white women.
And here is my own list:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2007/06/13/the-ten-most-beautiful-black-women-in-the-world/
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We’ve ran this topic to the ground by now. But I do want to point out that Iman is purely African. Bassett, Banks and even Knowles/Williams are predom. African so not ALL of these women have “a lot of white blood”.
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Funny – All you see are white women WANTING to look and FEEL Black. Why do you have so MANY cosmetic surgeons today making so much MONEY? Because White women AND their LOW self-esteem are willing to PAY. Big butt, Big breast, Big – whoops-Pouty lips, Dark skin color AND the list goes on.
Black women were BORN with this NATURAL beauty. It is not something WE will have to go and have REDONE every 4 to eight years.
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am begining to think all white men want is a skiny woman almost dying. i realy like white men and would love to have one in my life some day, but if a boney ass is what they are looking for then maybe they can hung. our black brothers appreciate our big bodies.
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Two names: Kiera Knightly and Victoria Beckham. Somebody feed those women! And what has Thandie Newton been up to? Did you see her in The Pursuit of Happiness?
They both used to be thin but very pretty and now they look like they should be on a UNICEF poster. No kidding.
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for one thing your an iddiot….white men dont typically date/or marry black women because theyre gross looking….they all look like gorillas/monkeys/apes/chinpanzees…and half of those women up there arent even black….theyre are more latino and hispanic than black….and venus and serena williams look ugly btw….try putting a pic of queen latifa up there to give a more correct perspective of the average black woman
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First, if you going to call someone an idiot, learn to spell.
Second, learn to read. This post was not about whites marrying blacks, just about which blacks they thought were the most beautiful. That does not necessarily mean they would want to marry them. After all, the most beautiful blacks might still be too ugly for their tastes.
Third, learn how to do math. Only one of those women is even part Hispanic – Mariah Carey. That is hardly “most”.
And fourth, learn how not to be a racist jerk. I think the reason they look like monkeys to you is because you are seeing them not as the women they are but in a racist way. It is not they who are ugly but your heart.
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Thank you, Abagond. That’s what I was going to say myself.
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I always find it some what quite intresting how it is some people like to talk about how mixed non whites are and dont like to talk about how mixed race all whites are. I get this all the time in my country your not native your mixed white people tell me this all the time it seems to me in order to be a non white single race you have to be 100% pure yet you can be mixed and white. No single person displays all the physical types of there race only a fraction. Skin type divserty is higher in all non European peoples and is lowest in Europeans.
Angela Basset is beautiful she reminds me of a teacher I once had.
It would great if you could do a post on N/A or native/white native/blacks etc
One last point if every single white person were to call themselves mixed race to reflect non white heritage the white race would shrink to zero becuase guess what we all have the same roots.
One rule for all or no race at all
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I still don’t know how Mariah Carey made it. I mean really?
I don’t know how big Rhianna was when this list was made, but I think she might make the list now.
Halle Berry(personal dislike aside) should never have played Storm in X-Men, Storm is supposed to be from Africa and should have looked like it. Closer to her comic book image.
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I feel the need to point out, it’s not just people who are black with all the boobs or butt, the only ethnicity I have that is not white is small and it’s Native American and I still have both in abundance. Same goes for my friend who I think is whiter than I am.
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I find it werid that Black people are still on that yes Master, No Master tip.
If we did a most Beauiful list with only Black people had to choose which we do all the time it would be the same. I mean it would be the same Halle,Beyonce and so why because there beauiful.
I’m a dark skin women but I’m so tire all the Tragic Dark skin women method it’s boring.
Black people are very closeminded to the point it very scary.
All the women on the list are black. Of course women will see the list and go well I don’t look like none of them of course you don’t cause there stars. Stop comparing yourself.
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I have a list of the most beautiful women according to BLACK people:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/02/09/the-most-beautiful-black-women-according-to-black-people/
It has Halle, Beyonce, etc, but it also has fewer mixed-race women. I do not think that is an accident.
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It should also be noted that Beyonce ranked much lower than she did on the white list.
Again, I don’t think either of those lists you compiled say anything about what the ACTUAL PEOPLE find beautiful in woman. Just because the mainstream media annoint a select few as something doesn’t mean that the general public agrees. Although, in this case, it may indicate the thought patterns of a segment of Americans.
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It indicates the thought patterns of people who put such lists on the Web. They are actual people, but it is hard to say how close they are in thinking to the general public.
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Hmmm, as a white guy, let me say my top ten list of any women any color includes Gabrielle Union, Kelly Rowland (she’s pretty black and sizzling)..and Beyonce.
On the other hand, Tyra Banks, Iman, Angela Basset wouldn’t have made my top ten (Tyra back in the day, yes, Iman never, Angela not really).
Add to the top ten list above Angela and Vanessa Simmons are sizzling hot. Natasha Bradley (R&B/pop singer) is incredible. Also Ida Ljungqvist (current Playmate of the Year). Name other hot looking dark actresses or singers? If they’re hot I’d list them. There’s not that many, that’s why they don’t make the list. Janet Jackson once upon a time, not now, but back when she was in Nutty Professor, you bet. If there were dark hot women I would put them on the list.
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BLACK WOMEN BEAUTY GOES FAR BEYOND THE FALSE COLOR OF A LIGHTER COMPLEXION, ASK THE FAIR COMPLEXION BLACK FEMALE( WHAT MAKES A BLACK WOMAN BEAUTIFUL?. REGARDLESS IF A BLACK FEMALE IS LIGHT OR DARK, AT ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT EQUATE TO BEAUTY. A BLACK WOMAN COULD BE CHOCOLATE AND THERE COULD BE 50 LIGHT COMPLEXION BLACK FEMALE IN THE ROOM, BUT IF THAT CHOCOLATE FEMALE HAVE THE BEAUTIFUL SEXY BLACK FIGURE, SKIN,TEETH, AND HAIR ALL EYES IS GOING TO BE ON HER. I HAVE SEEN THIS SO MANY TIMES, AND THE SO CALLED LIGHT COMPLEXED FEMALE FEEL INADUQUATE. IN A WOMAN BEAUTY GOES FAR BEYOND ANY SHADES, IT IS HER CONFIDENCE AND HOW SHE FEELS ABOUT HERSELF. IF SHE BELIEVES SHE IS BEAUTIFUL SHE IS BEAUTIFUL. AS IS THE MOST HANDSOME MEN IN THE BLACK RACE THEY ARE ALL CHOCOLATE. WHILE THE MEDIA PORTRAYS THEY LIGHT OR FAIR BLACK WOMAN AS BEING SO BEAUTIFUL IN REAL LIFE, AND ALL AROUND US IT IS THE BEAUTIFUL CHOCOLATE BLACK FEMALE THAT HAVE A CHOICE OF MEN FROM EVERY OTHER RACE INCLUDING HER OWN. SHE WILL ALWAY REIGN AS THE QUEEN OF THE ENTIRE WORLD. AND IF THIS STATEMENT IS NOT SO LIGHT ANY LIGHT , FAIR OR WHITE FEMALE CHALLENGE HER. BLACK FEMALES ARE A ALL AROUND BEAUTY SHE IS SIMPLY NOT LACKING IN ANYTHING. AS IF THE YELLOW, LIGHT , TAN, OR OTHERWISE IF IT WAS NOT FOR THIS CHOCOLATE BLACK FEMALE MATING WITH MEN FRON EVERY CULTURE IN THE WORLD THEY WOULD NOT BE AROUND. BECAUSE OF SELFISHNESS, IGNORANCE, AND RACISM THESE RARE BLACK PEARLS HAVE REMAIN OUT OF THE SPOTLIGHTS. BECAUSE OF A TRUE SENSE OF THEIR SELVES THEY REFUSE TO SELL THEMSELVES OUT IN HOLLYWOOD OR ANYPLACE ELSE. THESE WORLD WERE BROUGHT TO AMERICA FROM AFRICA BECAUSE OF THEIR BEAUTY AND TALENTS, THEY HAVE BEEN IN AMERICA FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS AND THEY REFUSES TO CONTINUE TO BE THE WHITE MEN WHORES. THEY DO NOT PUT A DOLLAR VALUE ON THEIR ASSES TO MAKE A PAYCHECK AND BE IN THE WHITE MEN COMPANY. IF A BLACK DOES NOT KNOW WHERE SHE HAS BEEN SHE DO NOT KNOW WHERE IN THE FUCK SHE IS GOING! BLACK WOEN SHOULD HAVE PRIDE AND HONOR ABOUT THEMSELVES, AND STOP KISSING UP IN THE WHITE MAN’S ASSHOLE!
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Interesting. Thanks for your list.
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“So I think it is safe to say that nearly all the list makers were white themselves.”
Are you basing this assumption on the fact that the lists you looked at contained mostly white women? Also, “assumption” is in no way scientific.
Second question: What about a list of beautiful women made by black men? How many white women do you think would be on it? Perhaps people have a general attraction for their own ethnicity. Perhaps you’re reading into things way too much.
*Choosing to remain racially ambiguous, though I’d put money down that you’ll assume I’m not black just because I’m calling your research methods, and thus your whole point into question.*
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Due to her Light Complexion, and Light Brown Eyes being also from A Creole background is Actress Raven-symone. Raven-symone is attractive to lots of White Males, Arab, Asians, etc besides Black Men…do some surveys on her. Raven-symone is the Former Child Star that is becoming an Accomplished Adult Star…she has the same Talent as all of these Women Combined…have you seen her latest look? Look for her new Pics from 2009.
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“Third, learn how to do math. Only one of those women is even part Hispanic – Mariah Carey. That is hardly “most”.”
Sorry but, half AFRO-hispanic, I just can’t stand the word hispanic alone as a description of race because it isn’t a race.
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“for one thing your an iddiot….white men dont typically date/or marry black women because theyre gross looking….they all look like gorillas/monkeys/apes/chinpanzees…and half of those women up there arent even black….theyre are more latino and hispanic than black….and venus and serena williams look ugly btw….try putting a pic of queen latifa up there to give a more correct perspective of the average black woman.”
Okay, here I go again, Latino isn’t a race, it’s used to decribe nationality. Just saying, blacks are everywhere.
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K says,
“for one thing your an iddiot….white men dont typically date/or marry black women because theyre gross looking….they all look like gorillas/monkeys/apes/chinpanzees…and half of those women up there arent even black….theyre are more latino and hispanic than black….and venus and serena williams look ugly btw….try putting a pic of queen latifa up there to give a more correct perspective of the average black woman.”
Okay, here I go again, Latino isn’t a race, it’s used to decribe nationality. Just saying, blacks are everywhere.
abagond,
Thanks for attempting to EDUCATE STUPID,IGNORANT,IDIOTIC,KNOW NOTHINGS, like the ANTI-BW RACIST/HATER who posted this NONSENSE.
I know it can often seem POINTLESS but your blog is helping to CONFRONT/HELP DESTROY the many ANTI-BW LIES, MYTHS, and STEREOTYPES found in American culture so that EVERYONE can LEARN what the TRUTH is about the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and BEAUTY of BW and the men of ALL RACES who love us.
Keep up the great blog, abagond. It IS making a difference in all of our lives.
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“Okay, here I go again, Latino isn’t a race, it’s used to decribe nationality. Just saying, blacks are everywhere.
abagond,
Thanks for attempting to EDUCATE STUPID,IGNORANT,IDIOTIC,KNOW NOTHINGS, like the ANTI-BW RACIST/HATER who posted this NONSENSE.
I know it can often seem POINTLESS but your blog is helping to CONFRONT/HELP DESTROY the many ANTI-BW LIES, MYTHS, and STEREOTYPES found in American culture so that EVERYONE can LEARN what the TRUTH is about the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and BEAUTY of BW and the men of ALL RACES who love us.
Keep up the great blog, abagond. It IS making a difference in all of our lives.”
What I meant by Latino not being a race is that, people have passed it off as a race but it really isn’t, the Latino community is made up of all kinds of races.
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The denial in this thread is ridiculous.
All I see are a bunch of Black men and their worshippers cheering on how “Black” These LIGHT-SKINNED/MIXED women are.
What a crock.
This post revealed to me how much Black men hate Black women, and the darker she is the more they hate her.
This bullshit of trying to act like Africa, West Indies, and Black diaspora communites are full of Mariah Carey lookalikes is a sick joke to say the least.
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Star Blazer, your comment may come off as angry and incendiary to some, but I think you’re right on the dot. I agree with you; the level of denial in these comments is staggering and unbelievable for the 21st Century.
The women on this all look a bit more white than they do black, and all of them are VERY fair for black women. They are gorgeous, no argument there – but it’s according to a very narrow, white standard of beauty.
But biased “beauty standards” are a very hard thing to prove, because when you call people out on it, they just claim that it’s their “personal preference.” I won’t knock anyone’s preferences, but do you ever stop to think about WHY you have them? Maybe it’s the media and everything in your culture, telling you what to believe from a young age.
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^^^
No denying that. But Tyra, Angela and Iman look “white” and are fair-skinned?
And I think it’s safe to say that if any of the remaining women on the list were to be the only non-white person in a random store and there were a report of shop lifting. Who in that store would you think the officers would look at first? We all know that the answer to that.
Star Blaster’s angry is understandable but I don’t understand what “black men” had to do with the above list. She clearly has some deep issues she may need to resolve.
I can emphasize with you being exhausted of the denials of some when presented with a (decidely ugly) truth, let’s just say that I have been through that in the last couple days in another post.
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I really think this list is skewed simply because the vast majority of these women are in the media regularly or just overexposed so they were the easier ones to choose from. Or they were chosen because, who else is there to choose from who is relatively known? There are not that many black actresses or black female celebrities who are well known to be honest.
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^^^
Not particularly true. Perhaps, if one is just a casual fan or observer, then maybe they can only think of a few. Yet, in reality, there’s many black female celebrities of all levels of fame.
I agree that most of the women above are “obvious” choices in terms of notoriety, not neccessarily pure beauty. But then, at the end of the day, this list isn’t comphrensive so I won’t fully jump to conclusions based on who was picked and how they look like.
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Mel B.(Scary Spice of the Spice Girls)has the best body of ANY black babe I’ve ever seen!!!!(and does the buxom U.K. lass symbol proud!!!!)Also,Caribbean
“birds’ are,as a rule,INFINITELY hotter than black Yankee broads!!!!
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MARIAH CAREY’S A FAT BROAD!!!!
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Cowboy Jim-Brad Says,
Also,Caribbean
“birds’ are,as a rule,INFINITELY hotter than black Yankee broads!!!!
laromana says,
And your NEGATIVE ANTI-American BW NONSENSE matters to us because?????
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Black Americans and White Americans have the same standards of beauty. If you gave a list of 10 Black women ranging from the deepest dark skin to the lightest skinned women to both Black and White people I guarantee you the first two people will be Halle Berry and Beyonce. There would be no difference. You can say Black American adopted White Americans views on race and beauty but it is what it is and very few people in the Black community would change it.
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Reading some of these Blogs about Black women, standards of beauty what white folks think of us, blah blah. I really don’t give a sh!t. I stopped caring about what White folks think and focused on what I want, need and what makes me happy. If more people, of any race, would turn off the television, get off the computer and experience the world face to face much of this racialization would come to an end.
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I also did a post like this one only it was according to black people:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/02/09/the-most-beautiful-black-women-according-to-black-people/
Halle did come in first, as you expected, but Beyonce was in a three-way tie for FOURTH place with Tyra and Gabrielle Union. Angela Bassett and Vanessa Williams both did better than Beyonce.
Also: of the nine women listed above, 4 have a white parent – 45%. On the black list only one woman in the top nine does (Halle) – 11%. I do not think that is an accident.
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^^^
Right. As mentioned several times on here, blacks and white don’t share the same exact ideas on female beauty.
It’s interesting that the black counterpart to this list has way fewer comments. Why do you think that is, Abagond? Is it because most of the female celebs on that list aren’t light skinned, thus making the list less controversial? Or just it is just less interesting?
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Abagond you have proven my point. Your Black and White list is very similar. Beyonce is losing popularity in the Black community because of her ongoing semi-nudity when performing. But she’s still very high on the list. Not surprised Vanessa Williams did very well as she is very light skinned and very popular with Black folks.
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Abagond, what do you think of what I asked in comment #228? I’m curious.
Marnie2010, based on your avatar, you are very attractive. You don’t think other black folks would rank you high on a beauty list? I have a feeling you wouldn’t do too bad.
Even a blind man can see that the black and white lists are strikingly different from each other. The women on the black list seem more urbane (as well as browner in skin complexion). I don’t think black America as a whole ever completely took to Beyonce. Don’t the media fool you.
(Sorry for the typos in the previous version of this comment.)
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When black people judge black women for their beauty it is just about beauty. But when white people do it, as on this list, it is about race and beauty. Not because it has to be – a beautiful woman can just be a beautiful woman regardless of race – but because by their choices it looks like it is.
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Abagond said:
When black people judge black women for their beauty it is just about beauty. But when white people do it, as on this list, it is about race and beauty. Not because it has to be – a beautiful woman can just be a beautiful woman regardless of race – but because by their choices it looks like it is.
Yeah it does seemt that they are using tokenism when it comes to Black women or other women of color on the mainstream Hollywood list. I think that White people and Black people do share commonalities on attractive Black women, however, the White list usually use more popular Black women on their list. Whereas Black people use popular and unpopular Black women on their list.
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marnie2010 said:
Abagond you have proven my point. Your Black and White list is very similar. Beyonce is losing popularity in the Black community because of her ongoing semi-nudity when performing. But she’s still very high on the list. Not surprised Vanessa Williams did very well as she is very light skinned and very popular with Black folks.
You think Beyonce is losing popularity because of her semi-nude performances? I think she is losing popularity because she is getting on people’s nerves for being overexposed lol. I think Beyonce is still quite high on Black people’s list of attractive women. She will be used constantly as the standard for a beautiful Black women in people’s lines in films and TV like Halle Berry.
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^^^
Yeah, Dani. But I don’t think that Beyonce has unanimous love and geniune respect from the black American world as a whole.
You can’t really go by the media. An overexposed movie star can grace every magazine cover in the world yet watch their latest film brick at the box office. What the people at large think and feel and what the media depicts doesn’t always correlate.
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@ mynameismyname why do you think she does not have unanimous love and genuine respect from the Black American world as whole?
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@232 dani Says:
Thu 3 Dec 2009 at 02:39:40
Yeah it does seemt that they are using tokenism when it comes to Black women or other women of color on the mainstream Hollywood list. I think that White people and Black people do share commonalities on attractive Black women, however, the White list usually use more popular Black women on their list. Whereas Black people use popular and unpopular Black women on their list.
I wonder if the popular list used by the white people was just because it was that, popular and those were the only ones they could think of? The ‘overexposed movie stars’ etc?
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Dani,
Now, you about to get me into trouble! LOL. You know what happened the last time I told the truth. I’m damn near got e-jumped and ended up getting banned! LOL. I kid, I kid.
No, there’s many reasons but I think the overexposure, the “diva” reputation, the whole drama with the original members of Destiny’s Child, the lack of personality and intellect, and believe it or not, her skin tone are some of the obvious ones. Per the skin tone, for every black American who admires a relatively lighter complexion, there’s another one who dislikes or even depises it.
As witnessed by the black counterpart of the above list, the “ideal” black beauty in the minds of the general black American is someone who is medium in terms of all racial characteristics. Not light-skinned but not very dark either. Not “European-featured”, but not Palenegroid-featured either. The list goes on. This can be also witnessed by the fact that most black women in the media fit this characteristic. Take a look and think about it.
Overall though, I don’t put too much value into either list. They’re interesting in a trivial way but to draw broad social conclusions from them is iffy. Imagine someone using Aba’s personal lists of beautiful black women as a general guide for black male taste in women. Would that be factual?
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i love this list.i agree 100% with halle berry being first and beyonce second.ok
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In our work with black American male sexual tourists here in Rio de Janeiro, Beyoncé and Halle Berry frequently come up as sex symbols and as examples of the type of woman they expect to find in Brazil.
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First of all, I am a woman. Second of all, I am not a native English speaker. So my opinion here isn’t really important for the list, but I must say I consider Angela Bassett the most beautiful.
She could easily be the most beautiful (famous) woman on the world (with Isabelle Adjani). Again, this is just my female opinion and perhaps men disagree with it, but to me, these two women are the most beautiful.
Speaking of the list, I also find Iman and Thandie Newton more beautiful than Halle Berry and Beyonce. But then again, I am not a man, so there must be something about Halle and Beyonce that makes them the most attractive for men.
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WOW! I must say I can’t believe I read all of these comments; very interesting point of views from people who can put any sort of animosity aside and make intelligent comments.
Facial features, family history, race and scientific skeletal grouping have no merit on beauty, when it is based purely on skin color!
Since I am an artist I take a completely different approach to skin color and beauty. The ranges of the color of brown (in terms of what it means to be a ‘black/african decent’ person) is varied. Non “brown” skinned people (weather african decent or not!) can have many completions that are a mix of brown with “red” and “ocher” to make olive and pink skin color.
To me skin color branches with mixtures of these 3 colors only. (almost all artist make skin color based on these colors, very few times adding green to it)
With my research and my personal experiences, fair skin women, i.e. women who would fall close to the “white-to-brown” color than the “brown-to-black” color, are more favored and seem to generally have a better experience interacting with other without worrying so much about the stigma that comes with being a “black” person in the United States.
I am in the “brown-to-black” color spectrum, but I am more brown than black and couldn’t under any amount of lighting ever pass for anything other than someone from African descent. Let’s face it, there are no dark skinned (“brown-to-black”) people in Holland!
This topic IS VERY IMPORTANT and I will tell you why. You can post what you want about “people should love themselves” and “not look to the media to affect their premise of beauty” etc. but you fail to realize, how can one determine if they are beautiful unless they were to compare themselves to someone else? (Saying otherwise is ignorant as this logic stands true for many things!) That’s why this is important. Most of the women on this list fall on the “white-to-brown” complexion regardless of their heritage, which is irreverent. The darkest, whitest person could NEVER fall into the “brown-to-black” complexion so there holds some truth in the reasoning why most fair-skinned people (olive, rose, “white-to-black”) feel more connected and therefore would pick these kinds of people to be there in their eyes their object of beauty. (And in most cases vice versa)
But in our media there are more fair-skinned people dominate ALL popular media. It is unfair to assume that the mass of America, including “brown-to-black” people, would actively scout out alternative media to make themselves feel better. This is something that usually doesn’t happen till adulthood but the damage is already done.
And that is why this topic is important! Just wanted to add my two cents, sorry the post was so long. I feel that people should really explain where they were coming from otherwise others who read will get the wrong idea.
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You missed the most top beautiful four
Stacy Dash
Gabrielle Union
Megan Good
Eva Pigford
Your list seems to be off fame , not beauty because Alicia Keys looks like every other mixed chick walking down the street and Beyonce looks like ever other cute black cjhick in the hood.
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To Pete from July 2009 : Yeah I forgot, wherefrom you know Kleopatra was Black?????? She was from Grece dynasty of Ptolemaios, and was totally more white than black.
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All of these Negro women have Caucasian blood; period.
To me, there is no such thing as a beautiful Negro woman; they are all very ugly. I don’t know whether or not it will be in my life time or not but I wish that one day everyone in the world would wake up from the brainwashing that has taken place over the last 45 years and realize that Negros are not the same species as Caucasians; end of story.
Some people REFUSE to accept this UNDENIABLE truth no matter what scientific proof you show them; they are SHOT mentally and PERMANENTLY BRAINWASHED.
This is a sorry excuse for a world; but sorry folks the White Race is the most superior race that has ever walked the face of the earth; sure we have our share of scum but if you look at the big picture, our scum has still done more then the best of the Negros.
The only thing Negros can do is sing, dance, and play sports; and even then a good bit of THEM have white ancestry.
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^Why are you even here?
Who the HELL made YOU the objective keeper of beauty?
99.9999% says your butt ugly anyways.
Now run along back to YOUR board, the laughing stock of the whole internet, aka Stormfront.
I mean, ok, you think “Negros” are inferior to Caucasians. And? What kind of reply are you hoping to get from us exactly?
Do you expect us to agree with what you’re saying?
God, you people are so dense.
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Lordy, lordy. These trolls are desperate in their hatred of Blacks, esp. Black women. They’re so jealous of us. Especially they hate Michelle Obama with a passion because their world is coming to an end and they don’t like that one bit.
La Reyna
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These women are not what most english speaking men consider the most beautiful. This is a list of what mainstream media has deemed beautiful based on their standards.
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La Reyna, I think you give them too much credit.
Trolls are generally in it for the lulz and nothing more. The more sincere a group discussion, the more they’ll try to disrupt it.
That’s pretty much my take on most of these racist posts here.
To tell the truth, though, I also occasionally troll Stormfront… (mea maxima culpa)
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Thad I agree. I lurk at Stormront too. I wasn’t to shocked to fiind out how insecure they are over there. LOLz
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Lurking and trolling white supremacist sites? LOL
Now there’s a thought. If I weren’t such a chicken I’d consider it.
It’s warmer at Abagond 🙂
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@Thad:
“To tell the truth, though, I also occasionally troll Stormfront… (mea maxima culpa)”
That is funny, hahahahah!!
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I would also include Kerry Washington to the list.
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Notice how Caucasoid they all look!
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You cant forget Whitney Houston… She is one of the most successful as well as beautiful black women known to man…
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I do understand that Women of African descent have a hard time of it when it comes to being labeled as “beautiful”. Especially since we’ve been dispersed throughout the African Diaspora. (Caribbean, South America). For years, somethings been wrong and ridiculed with every part of us : Our butts too big, lips too big, hair too wild and nappy, temperment too sassy…SO WHAT? All these features seem to be just dandy and great on Women of European and Latina descent. We’ve had these beautiful features FOREVER…So Women are having lip injections, lying on tanning beds, injecting implants in butts, My Lord, wanting to be like us but thank God you don’t have to BE us? I’ve seen African women who have features that are so perfectly lovely, deeply brown women who would put well recognized women of color (and European Women) to shame. Wake up people, it’s a terrible mind trip that’s been put on us by people who have inferiority complexes and want to put down other groups by elevating themselves by force and psychological/emotional warfare against First World People. I’ve said my piece…All cultures/women have beautiful features and traits. Stop the comparisons based on color and parentage. It’s divisive and damaging and will never serve to heal the injustice that has shackled us all.
(PS…even the ones who you label the most beautiful have had some work even if it’s breast implants -check Halles cute features out in BOOMERANG and how something had changed in films after that….)
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Hi there, have you ever seen most Ethiopian girls when speaking to black girls beuty. Check em. Then, let me know.
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I think all these women are strickingly beautiful. They all possess something different that any man or woman would find beautiful. But, beauty is truly in the eyes of the beholder.
Unfortunately, we are in the 20th century and still debating over what is considered beautiful due to the force feeding of the lastest media frenzy over what is considered beautiful. There is such a demand on beauty restoration and supplements that we’re neglecting our true beauty which lies deep inside all of us.
No matter who agrees or disagrees to what you find beautiful it will always be an undebatable subject with no winners on either side. Whether if anyone thinks I’m beautiful or not, I know I was made in the image of God and He didn’t make any mistakes on me.
Peace and Blessings to All,
One Love
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Comments:
Why do people use the term “light skinned African America”? I think the correct term should be “black and white”. Because that is true. Why not appreciate both races? Both are equally human.
To the person that said black people can not claim white… Black people can claim white; they can claim whatever they want to be. Did you stop and think that the person values being black more than white. Does that not say anything for itself. Think of all the people that are bi-racial. It seems they would rather claim their black side more than their white. Even though they are clearly both.
The persona that designed this so-called study did a lazy job at collecting information. She used the internet media which in itself is just plain wrong, uninformative, and deceiving. She is using websites that supposedly define what beauty is, not what the general population thinks is beautiful. She is just using top websites. She did not conduct any thing close to a reasonable study. There was not a questionnaire or survey. As well, you can’t just get answers from questionnaires/survey only from the internet. The surveys conducted over the internet are only available to those that would respond on the internet. to get a fair population, she should use the phone, mail, and locations. Also she said that most of the people were white. How does one tell the race behind a computer? She is biased and stereotyping. She should have used more sources than just her top Google list. Ignorance. She would need all genders, races, and regions (yes, regions, not religion) to establish a good study. She would then need to prove her study, by doing it multiple times and multiple ways. She is the one stereotyping.
Just because she is assuming, which makes an ass of herself that the people are white English speaking people. These people could speak multiple languages, English could be being the last, or less fluent.
When people misuse information, problems arise, such as stereotyping. We all should agree to disagree. There are as many opinions as there are faces.
Why is it suitable for blacks to generalize and categorize whites, but not suitable for white to generalize and categorize blacks.
Why does everyone keep putting their race in their opinions? It should not validate your opinion!!!! One more thing people, if you want others to take you and your opinions seriously, use spell check and check your grammar!!!
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One more thing. There are as many beautiful white women as there are black women, and every other color and ethnicity. Why are we focusing on beautiful women. What makes beauty? What the media defines? The unrealistic features of models that only exist in the less than one percent of humans.
What about the “ugly” people that make this world a livable place. Why don’t we praise them. The jobs they do, volunteer hours, and donations. Which they are probably not really ugly. They just don’t wear pounds of make up and don’t have the option of air brushing when they develop their pictures.
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People use the phrase “light skin African American” instead of “black and white” because not all light skin black Americans have white ancestry…
I know light skinned Nigerians that are not mixed. When I was a small child I was quite light and I know I am not mixed…
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Umm, I’m pretty sure your DNA would say other wise…
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A DNA test read by Mariah Carey on Lopez Tonight revealed Lopez to be of 55% European, 32% Native American, 9% East Asian, and 4% African descent.
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Very, very few human beings on this planet are “not mixed”.
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Hmm…my experience as a very light skinned mixed race girl, is that it is black men in particular that focus on the darkness/light skin issue.
To quote a black guy recently: “I want a nice light skinned girl like you.” Reducing me to a skin colour. Also, although I’m pretty, there are often good looking dark skinned women around, and – as usual – black men cluster around me, largely ignoring the darker skinned women – especially if they have african features.
By contrast, when white men chat me up, they don’t even mention race. Then again, how many white men do I know who are with black women? They tend to go for white, or Japanese girls (lighter skin). Exotic is great. Black is not.
From white men, I know this from their actions; it’s so rare to see one of them pursue a 100% black woman. Ask a white guy for his favourite female celebrity (I do frequently) and it is always white – or if they are trying to pull me, they’ll say Jennifer Lopez (exotic but not black…)
My point is that we’ve ALL grown up in a media that celebrates white – and exotic women ( think of all those exotic models on the catwalk – most of them are a mix of backgrounds). Not black women. Black men once appreciated women with african features, but the horrible truth is, they rarely seem to anymore.
Black or white, we all seem to be rascist against black women. Why else would 70% of black women be single? It’s not an accident and sick of people denying it – wherer are all their partners, if dark skins are so attractive? Actions speak louder than words.
I think it is all about social status. If black women were seen as powerful (and wealthy) within the world, they’d be considered sexy and men would revere their features. Oprah is not enough. We need a hell of a lot more powerful dark skinned black women out there. I’m hoping that for the next generation, Michelle Obama will have made a difference.
Not yet though – I’m sick and tired of people insulting her looks because she isn’t a barbie doll. We’ve a hell of a long way to go.
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Agree to Disagree,
“Why do people use the term “light skinned African America”? I think the correct term should be “black and white”. Because that is true. “
Uhhh, no. No, it’s not. If a light-skinned W. African comes to America, should they be considered “black and white?”
There is more phenotypic diversity on the continent of Africa than any other continent. This is a fact. It’s a fool’s sentiment to presume that a lighter-skinned black person is heavily mixed.
People use the phrase “light skin African American” instead of “black and white” because not all light skin black Americans have white ancestry…
I know light skinned Nigerians that are not mixed. When I was a small child I was quite light and I know I am not mixed…
Precisely.
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JC excellent comment
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Good day
I am a native African living in South Africa. I would like to add to this blog by saying that it is true that there is a large variety of people in Africa. In my family alone there are very light skinned and very dark skinned people. My younger sister was so light skinned that her eyes were green when she was younger but they are now a light shade of brown.
South Africa has developed a sort of a caste system of its own. This system was extensively used by the old regime (aparthied) to accord privileges. The list ran like this
1. Whites
2. Asians and Coloureds
3. Africans
Coloureds was a word used, even today, for people of mixed race. Most people in this list which has caused this debate would not be considered as black in SA. They would be called coloured. I was taught as a child to always look on people of dark complexion as ugly and undesirable and those of a lighter complexion as beautiful. This is the general feeling in all of South Africa and it is was normal for either white people, asians or coloureds to win beauty contests but never a “pure” native. This has changed in recent times and people are starting to break out of the mould which once trapped them. Features which can only be described as exclusively African can now be paraded and admired as those of foreign origins.
I take this to mean that while it is true that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, the insidious brainwashing which is the effect of the media can blind some eyes to the truth.
I therefore conclude that: “People in general will see light skinned women as more attractive not because of ‘personal preference’ but due to the coercive influence of the media which was established by colonial supremacists” I am glad that my own country has recognised this and has begun to take remedial action.
Thank you
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“Why do people use the term “light skinned African America”? I think the correct term should be “black and white”. Because that is true. “
Sorry but this made me laugh there are many black people who are light skinned and are not mixed. Straight out of Africa and are not mixed with white. LOL
and they are dark skinned black people who are mixed but not with white or race/ethnicity that has light skin i.e. Tatyanna Ali (Ashley from fresh prince of Bel aire) is afro panamanian and indo trindadian
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Oh come on… humans have been around for thousands of years. There is a little bit of every race in every one of us. There are “light skinned” Africans because of interracial occasions. It may not have occurred for generations, but some time ago, it happened.
Remember there are only three races of humans: African, Caucasian, and Oriental. There is only one type of human; a human being. There are billions of people spread over thousands of years. Remember the continents were a little closer thousands of years ago, making it easier to travel and to interact. Ignorance must be bliss…
I find it interesting that no one commented on my response of the same amount of beauty in all races. People tend to focus on the negatives of each other and try to correct others’ opinions instead of seeing the beauty. That is one reason why there will never be equality; too much hatred.
If black people expect change from white people, black people must change as well. If white people expect change from black people, white people must change as well. Stop accusing whites of racism. Not all whites are racist, as well, not all blacks are racist either. Stop accusing (both races) and arguing. We need to grow together as humans. Would my comments have a different meaning if I were white? Would my comments have a different meaning if I were black? Would my comments have a different meaning if I were both, or neither?
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“Oh come on… humans have been around for thousands of years. There is a little bit of every race in every one of us. There are “light skinned” Africans because of interracial occasions.”
You’re just plain ignorant.
Why shouldn’t the whole nation of Africa contain alleles for lighter skin? Is this something exclusive to Europe? No. Genomic studies show that there is very little European admixture amongst W. African tribes. Inform yourself before you cavalierly make egregious statements.
“Remember there are only three races of humans: African, Caucasian, and Oriental. “
Ummm…first, find irrefutable proof of race as a biological reality. Ready, set, go.
“Ignorance must be bliss…”
Clearly. Clearly.
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You just ate your own words. “Genomic studies show that there is very little European admixture amongst W. African tribes.” That is exactly my point. There is mixture, even if it is very little. Very little is still some.
I found so much information in articles on “race as a biological reality.” This is just a sample, “Forensic science supports the reality of the human races, and can racially identify race from skeletal remains with great accuracy…”
Also, “The bony traits of the nose, mouth, femur, and cranium are just as revealing to a good osteologist as skin color…”
Some more, “…race does exist in the genes and is genetically determined.”
However, I did see some websites that denied race as biological. But see that is my point. Every one wants to criticize and make everything negative. I do understand that race in the sense of biology is highly debatable; which would mean I am not ignorant because I am reading and learning about both ideas.
May be you should read more on race being a biological reality. You will only find the facts you want to find. Explore and learn all possibilities.
Nobody on this website will praise when someone wants to bring humans together. Every one argues and will not take into consideration the positive things people say.
We all should focus on the things that bond us. Some people are just too angry with the world. We should focus on things we can change. Instead of bringing us together, this website and others are separating us farther. Why can’t everyone spend their time researching the programs
and the people that are trying to help; instead of complaining of stereotypes. Lets all change them! This website is discouraging.
Consider that no one can be racist and a Christian; God love all his children. Most importantly, nobody is born a bigot.
As well, I think everyone should inform themselves with as mush education as they can. I think people should practice expressing their own thoughts instead of using a thesaurus.
“Clearly.”
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Agree to Disagree,
“You just ate your own words. “Genomic studies show that there is very little European admixture amongst W. African tribes.” That is exactly my point. There is mixture, even if it is very little. Very little is still some.”
No, I did not. There is admixture in some tribes. The average in these tribes is about 1.5-2 percent; less than the percentage of African admixture in certain parts of England — should we call the English “black and white” too? But, this is all irrelevant because the lightest groups in W. Africa are the not the “mixed” ones. So try again.
“May be you should read more on race being a biological reality. You will only find the facts you want to find. Explore and learn all possibilities.”
I’m a biologist. Race is not a biological reality. At the most, there are genetic markers, but these do not indicate “race,” but geographical distribution.
“Nobody on this website will praise when someone wants to bring humans together.”
You’re the one who is trying to separate African-Americans into based on something as superficial and unreliable as skin complexion.
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I think the argument of race in America is ridiculous. My son is 1/4 black, having a bi-racial mother and white father. He is darker than me, but lighter than his mother. He has the tight curls, but with blonde hair. At 17 the boy is having to beat the women off with a stick (no pride there I swear). My point is that race in America is hard to trace, rather than be concerned about that, how about we concern ourselves with being Americans. On the census form this year I chose to select other for race and wrote in American, until a majority of people start doing this, we will continue to see a divide amongst all races.
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JC says,
Ask a white guy for his favourite female celebrity (I do frequently) and it is always white – or if they are trying to pull me, they’ll say Jennifer Lopez (exotic but not black…)
laromana says,
CORRECTION: J-Lo is a light skinned Afrolatina which definitely makes her part BLACK.
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I would like to set something clear. Whenever the word creole is mentioned regarding Louisiana, it Haiti they are talking about. The haitians occupied this region. they used to speak French. Those haitians who spoke french also help USA win its independance .Sadly,things they do not teach the american children.
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Let me tell of you one thing. I wish all of you could open your eyes and see clearly what is really going on. if you are paying close attention , you will notice that most white people don’t like to be white. They do not like their light complexion at all. This is the reason why they are always tanning every day.They are trying to get dark. they are getting their skin toned. The white women are doing everything to get full lips, big cushions, dark skin every physical features only black women have. they are making black people feel bad because that is how they feel deep inside. When you feel good about yourself you will certainly make someone else feel the same. But if you don’t there is no way you can share what you don’t have with someone else. So this is what is going on. the black color is the ideal color ever since the world was and will always be. From ancient time to the eternity. Every other color derived from it. The white collectivity knows about this crucial fact. That is why they are always putting us down because that is the same way they feel. They deeply wished they had black skin.
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When it comes to black women, whenever a woman has some physical features that remind the white man of the black woman he will be attracted to her. Like curves, dark skin, black hair, full lips any physical feature that makes the woman less white. No matter what you see going on , black woman is the definition of woman. It is for every man in every color. Do not worry about the race thing it is all a cover-up. this is what their white women know, now they are trying to have those physical features that black women have because they also know deep down their white men are lusting about black women. In order to have a complete undertanding on why white people keep putting black women specifically down, we have to go way beyong the racist system. All human beings came to existance through the black woman. She is the mother of all the human race. Make some research. There are great books out there that explain clearly the real cause of this.
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I’m mixed race (3/4 white and a 1/4 black) and my top five is as follows:
1. Naomi Campbell
2. Neomie Lenoir
3. Iman
4. Liya Kebede
5. Tyra Banks
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I forget Thandie Newton, I do think shes stunning. I may have to put her as number five, instead of Tyra Banks.
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Yes Lenoir is so beautiful its insane. She has been having problems these past few months. She tried to commit suicide a month or so ago. I wish her a speedy recovery.
Also, I wish her and Claude Makelele would gt back together, they are a beautiful couple with a beautiful child.
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laromana says,
CORRECTION: J-Lo is a light skinned Afrolatina which definitely makes her part BLACK.
I did not know J Lo was a Afrolatina I thought she was a white/native mix. Each time I come to this blog I learn something new.
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“I did not know J Lo was a Afrolatina I thought she was a white/native mix. Each time I come to this blog I learn something new.”
There’s a bit of confusion over this term “Afro-Latino.” In Puerto Rico and other Latin American countries, there are no endogamous self-contained ethnic groups of Afro-descendants analogous to the African Americans of the United States. In these countries, “Afro-Latino” is generally applied to forms of culture and not individuals or groups, and the various cultures (including African-derived ones) are regarded as a property of the entire nation. Now, the Latin Americans do apply color or race terminologies to individuals such as “black” and “white.” But if J Lo lived in Puerto Rico, she would be considered white.
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FG says,
Now, the Latin Americans do apply color or race terminologies to individuals such as “black” and “white.” But if J Lo lived in Puerto Rico, she would be considered white.
laromana says,
And it is this INCORRECT classification that I was referring to. There are MANY Latinos of mixed African/Spanish/Other descent that may look light but that doesn’t mean they’re White.
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No one in Brazil would ever see J Lo as anything but white. In fact, the concept that she is afro anything would raise deep guffaws from 99% of the populace.
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She is seen as white in my country. And so is Adriana Lima.
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I wish race didn’t matter. I don’t understand! It can be so annoying…..
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missyraye
I wish race didn’t matter. I don’t understand! It can be so annoying…..
laromana says,
I feel the same way but my long time first hand experiences as a Black women in America have taught me that race does matter, especially if you’re Black.
To those who think it’s far fetched for J-lo to “look/be considered white” in Brazil or in other countries, the point is that there are MANY people of MIXED African descent who look “MORE WHITE” than she does and are NOT WHITE.
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“I feel the same way but my long time first hand experiences as a Black women in America have taught me that race does matter, especially if you’re Black.”
Right, it’s naive to think that race doesn’t matter. In the US, races are thought of as big extended families. They are a major source of identity and social solidarity. That’s why alot of mixed people choose to identify as a member of just one race, though acknowledging that they are mixed with another. They want to feel included, a part of a cohesive whole. With the exception perhaps of the President, a mixed person’s identification as monoracial black is not that controversial. This is the case with several of the women pictured above. However, some mixed people, due to appearance and/or upbringing, wish to identify with the white American social grouping. Oddly, this is considered immoral by some even though identification as black is not.
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I could see J.Lo having some African ancestry; she looked more “mixed” earlier on in her career. But she now has the “whiteness” makeover complete with nose job/lip reduction just like Beyonce.
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Natasha,
Now that I think about it JLo did “look” more mixed when she was a fly girl. Her hair was dark and curly also. I’m glad I’m not the only one who noticed that Beyonce had a nose job and possible skin lightening too.
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Yikes! Beyonce lightened her skin?? When?? I thought by North American standards she’s always been light skinned. Leaveum, I know you qualified with ‘possible’ lightening..but really?? Am shocked!
What the heck was wrong with her lips before?? Too full for lip-planting white America?
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The point is that there are MANY people of MIXED African descent who look “MORE WHITE” than she does and are NOT WHITE.
Not white according to who, exactly?
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MerriMay, I wholeheartedly believe Beyonce did. Not even “possible,” she did and does. I have a keen eye for appearances and as soon as someone changes, even slightly, I will notice.
On the lips/nose, judge for yourself:
Anyway, celebs do things like this all the time. Most of Hollywood permanently alters their appearances in various ways. In fact, the only person on this post who looks like they originally did is Angela Bassett.
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I believe that anyone should be able to identify themselves according to ALL parts of their racial identity without being judged for doing so.
What I don’t agree with is expecting a person to DENY parts of their identity in order to fit the “STEREOTYPES/PERCEPTIONS” of who OTHERS “think” their identity “should be”.
I also have a problem with a person DENYING parts of their identity in order to fit the “STEREOTYPES/PERCEPTIONS” of who OTHERS “think” their identity “should be”
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It seems you’re in a contradiction there, laromana. You want people to be free to declare themselves what they want themselves to be, and yet you seem to think that there’s some real, base identity handed down from one’s ancestors and that this must be reproduced.
I believe that the whole concept of “identity” – racial or otherwise – is a shuck for the most part.
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“I believe that the whole concept of “identity” – racial or otherwise – is a shuck for the most part.”
Americans take the racial type very seriously, though. You have to give it consideration if only because alot of other people do.
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Thanks Natasha
Wooow…. SMH
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“I believe that anyone should be able to identify themselves according to ALL parts of their racial identity without being judged for doing so.
What I don’t agree with is expecting a person to DENY parts of their identity in order to fit the “STEREOTYPES/PERCEPTIONS” of who OTHERS “think” their identity “should be”.
I also have a problem with a person DENYING parts of their identity in order to fit the “STEREOTYPES/PERCEPTIONS” of who OTHERS “think” their identity “should be””
The fact is everyone’s somewhat mixed. Even Western Europeans have trace amounts of sub-Saharan ancestry. In my opinion, there’s nothing wrong with African Americans (who are on average a little less than 1/5 white) identifying as simply black, because that’s what they are overwhelmingly. Conversely, I think it’s reasonable for someone who’s 80% white and 20% black to identify as white. That’s what they are for the most part and that’s likely how the world will see them.
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To those who think it’s far fetched for J-lo to “look/be considered white” in Brazil or in other countries, the point is that there are MANY people of MIXED African descent who look “MORE WHITE” than she does and are NOT WHITE.
Please note I didn’t say “J Lo is white in my country”, I said “she is seen as white”. And so is Adriana Lima. There’s nothing strange about it; each culture see race differently. American way is no better or more truthful than any other, because race is not a fact, but a cultural construct. Of course, J Lo can see herself differently than the way others see her.
Also, I don’t understand, when do people stop counting (back in time) to consider themselves mixed race or monorace. What I’m saying is, most of the people have some ancestors who are of different race(s) than most of their ancestors. But what if the mixing happened centuries ago- are you mixed or not? If one of my ancestors (10 or 5 centuries ago) was of central Asian origin (and there’s a possibility of it), am I mixed or not? Should I see myself as mixed or not?
All I’m saying is that I don’t understand the logic behind it.
@FG
The fact is everyone’s somewhat mixed. Even Western Europeans have trace amounts of sub-Saharan ancestry. In my opinion, there’s nothing wrong with African Americans (who are on average a little less than 1/5 white) identifying as simply black, because that’s what they are overwhelmingly. Conversely, I think it’s reasonable for someone who’s 80% white and 20% black to identify as white. That’s what they are for the most part and that’s likely how the world will see them.
I agree about “we’re all mixed”. Well, maybe not “all”, but majority of people. In that way, white liberal fantasy about stopping racism with lots of mixed babies is already proven not to work: most of us is already mixed, and racism is still alive.
Now, I wouldn’t bet that the world would see someone who is 20% black as white. Sure, that person is mostly white, but it all depends on the actual phenotype. If said person looks ambiguous he or she could be seen as non-white (according to US standards).
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“Now, I wouldn’t bet that the world would see someone who is 20% black as white. Sure, that person is mostly white, but it all depends on the actual phenotype. If said person looks ambiguous he or she could be seen as non-white (according to US standards).”
Because of One Drop Rule ideology, people are disposed to thinking of black genes as very potent and “dominant.” They’ll show up even at relatively small levels of admixture. But this is not true. Individuals who are around 1/4 black and 3/4 white tend to lack discernable African features and approach a “Mediterranean” phenotype. Many of the Latin American “white” elites have this look (sort of like Gloria Estefan) for this reason. People who look like this tend to be regarded as white in the US, even if their ancestry is known. It’s believed that once you get down to 12% Sub-Saharan ancestry, there’s is no indication whatsoever of admixture.
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FG,
There’s no such thing as “black” or “white” genes. However, melanin does seem to be dominant, in a way that a child or a light haired and a dark haired person has more chances of being dark haired. Also, it is more common to inherit a skin tone darker than your light skinned parent if another parent has dark skin. It’s a bit different for the eye colour, but there’s more possibility for a child to be dark eyed. (Natasha can correct me here).
All in all, it is less likely that the child would be white (pale) skinned, blue eyed and blonde. The child doesn’t have to look black (whatever that means) but it would most probably be “ambiguous”.
I was under the impression that the ambiguous look can make people in the US see you as non-white, end of story. However, I understand different parts of America have different rules.
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“There’s no such thing as “black” or “white” genes. ”
I was referring to genes that code for what are regarded as black and white physical characteristics.
“melanin does seem to be dominant, in a way that a child or a light haired and a dark haired person has more chances of being dark haired. Also, it is more common to inherit a skin tone darker than your light skinned parent if another parent has dark skin. ”
No skin color gene is dominant. If you have a pure white parent and pure black parent, you’ll come out looking in-between. Obama has a phenotype intermediate to that of his parents. He’s quite a bit darker than his mother was but at the same time quite a bit lighter than his dad.
“I was under the impression that the ambiguous look can make people in the US see you as non-white, end of story. However, I understand different parts of America have different rules.”
It does vary. You can still find people who deny Italians are white. But if you look overwhelmingly white, then I think most would accept you’re claim to being white.
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*your
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FG says,
Many of the Latin American “white” elites have this look (sort of like Gloria Estefan) for this reason. People who look like this tend to be regarded as white in the US, even if their ancestry is known.
laromana says,
Being “SEEN AS/PERCEIVED AS/CONSIDERED AS” White doesn’t make you White. That’s why there are/have been persons in Black families who can “PASS” for White but are actually Black (and did so to AVOID being DISCRIMINATED against). This phenomenon occurs in Latin America as well and is done for the same reason.
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I am black and hope my children are mixed. I just think they will have an easier time. I hate to say that but that is why I only date non-black men. Just being honest.
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Also the person who mentioned Haiti being Creole. You are confusing the language with a racial group. Creole in Louisiana refers to a mixed person of color. Creole in Haiti means a language. Creole in parts of Latin America refer to a white person who was born in the new world. It is confusing. Both Haiti and Louisiana are mixed with a lot of things so they do have a connection. I would love to have a kid that looks like Thandie or Halle. Beautiful. But the thing is, I have seen full black people look lighter than mixed people so maybe I need to find me a light black man to have my kids. 🙂 But I like Hispanic and white men.
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Well, dark complexion is a vestigial function , which is bound to disappear naturally sooner or later , in the next hundred thousand of years .
There is no actual reason to spend extra efforts in order to save it.
There are so many reason to just say good riddance with the dark complexion.
still…
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Same thing with Whites. Soon they will be the minority and everyone will basically be mixed.
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Whiteness as a dominant culture, maybe.
But as far as i understood how complexion is coded in the dna, it doesn’t work like that.
i was talking only about skin complexion.. as for the other traits that define phenotype groups known as races nowadays, you’re probably right.
but let me tell you, i come from an *island* where a handful of french white guys have had their skin tone and main origininal phenotypal characteristic remaining unchanged while they were literally outnumbered by black people.
And they did it for hundred of years.
So yeah, in the future humankind is probably going to be as you predicted. But my island experiment teaches us, that it will only become true if humankind want it to be.
Beside it doesn’t change the fact , that the oddity that is dark complexion is bound to disappear , given enough time.
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There are so many reason to just say good riddance with the dark complexion.
Name them
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Well, dark complexion is a vestigial function , which is bound to disappear naturally sooner or later , in the next hundred thousand of years .
LOLwut?!
Friend, time to put down the ‘tussin, there.
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Aww Thaddeus, i guess i am not worthy of one of your long winded comment. You’re probably right , anyway.
And since we’re friend, let’s put down the ‘tussin
Funny fact, it is actually you who gave me that idea.
When you explained how south america diverges from north armerica in their fallacious attempt in creating their own unique race.
Which had made wondering about the natural process.
If in 200k years, when all those shenanigans about interracial stuff will long be forgotten, would there still be dark skinned humans around.
Some say , we’ll all be mixed.
I believe the defense mechanism behind the existence of melanin in our skin will no longer be justified.
So even without this InterRacial stuff, the genes coding for this great mechanism will be lost in translation.
Do you see furry humans walking around you ?
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JGreyden says,
“Well, dark complexion is a vestigial function , which is bound to disappear naturally sooner or later , in the next hundred thousand of years .
There is no actual reason to spend extra efforts in order to save it.
There are so many reason to just say good riddance with the dark complexion.”
Thaddeus says,
“LOLwut?!”
My thoughts exactly.
JGreyden, dark skin is not a vestigial trait. It serves a vital function in areas with high levels of UV radiation. Albinos in many tropical climates develop skin cancer in their late teens and early 20s because they do not produce melanin that would protect them. Even in more moderate climates, those with darker skin have a much lower rate of skin cancer. So dark skin is quite helpful.
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That’s exactly my point Natasha.
It is indeed helpful but its helpfulness is declining as “our” technology level increase.
Beside, dark skinned people can no longer be associated with high level UV radiation areas.
Light skinned australians thrive in australia..
no really , we can no longer thinks in terms of usefullness or UV exposure when it comes to the skin colour.
We are not wandering beasts crushed under the pressure of darwinian selection.
We actually choose where we want to live.
Therefore, it is vestigial.
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JGreyden sez:
Which had made wondering about the natural process.
If in 200k years, when all those shenanigans about interracial stuff will long be forgotten, would there still be dark skinned humans around.
You need to wonder harder about the natural process.
First of all, light-colored skin is very much in the minority on the planet. Stick us all in a proverbial blender and hit “frappe” and you’ll get a brown population.
Secondly, “dark” is a relative and not an absolutist term, so “the dark complexion” isn’t ever going to disappear: there will probably always be darker and lighter people for the reasons you brought up regarding your home island.
Finally, in pure evolutionary terms, skin color changes very quickly – say in 20,000 years. Assuming that we don’t evolve into some technologically based hyper-species, people living near the equator are going to need darker skin for good, solid evolutionary reasons.
So no, there’s no “natural” reason to presume that “the dark complexion” is going to disappear in 100,000 years. If humanity lives that long, we’ll probably all be uploaded into something like the internet, anyhow. If we’re still physical beings, we’ll probably have the means to change our bodies anyway we like at the drop of a hat. And if we fall flat on our faces but still continue as a species, we’ll need that natural sunblock.
Boy, will we ever.
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JGreyden,
“It is indeed helpful but its helpfulness is declining as “our” technology level increase.”
Sure, more and more advances are being made in the treatments of cancers but the fact of the matter is that it they are still huge killers. And treatments tend to be very expensive, so that only those that are well off can afford them. Dark skin will only cease to be helpful when the Sun ceases to exist (which is when we as a species will cease to exist). Besides, research suggests dark skin provides protection against other diseases.
“Beside, dark skinned people can no longer be associated with high level UV radiation areas.”
???
Really? Why is that? The vast majority of dark-skinned people still live in areas with high levels of UV radiation.
“We are not wandering beasts crushed under the pressure of darwinian selection.
We actually choose where we want to live.”
…Right. So you suggest everyone pack into areas with little/no sunlight? You do realize that your solution is infeasible, right?
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Mira,
“(Natasha can correct me here).”
Will do… hope this isn’t too off-topic.
“…However, melanin does seem to be dominant, in a way that a child or a light haired and a dark haired person has more chances of being dark haired.”
Darker skin/hair is dominant in the sense that its presence masks the presence of lighter skin/hair. The genes themselves are not actually more dominant.
“Also, it is more common to inherit a skin tone darker than your light skinned parent if another parent has dark skin.”
Eh, maybe if one parent is “white” and the other is “black.” But within populations, that is not necessarily true because there are several genes (seven and counting) that control melanin and a dark-skinned person may have gene(s) for lighter skin which are not evident.
FG,
“If you have a pure white parent and pure black parent, you’ll come out looking in-between.”
Not necessarily. You could come out more on either side of the spectrum, although an intermediate is more common. But I’m unsure what you mean by “pure black” and “pure white.” What is “pure,” in reference to appearance?
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@ JGreyden:
“the oddity that is dark complexion is bound to disappear , given enough time.”
Oddity?
We are all descended from dark people. The original people of Africa, South Asia, Australia and much of SE Asia and the Pacific are dark people. Most of mankind’s history has been spent in the tropics.
So it could definitely be argued that dark complexion is the “standard” human complexion. Those of us who are not dark, are the “oddities”.
“Light skinned australians thrive in australia.. “
We also have one of the world’s highest rates of skin cancer. It may not be a social advantage to be black in Australia, but it’s definitely a physiological advantage.
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@Natasha
Well the point i was trying to make was as follow. Since technology tend to even the chance of survival between light and dark skinned persons under the same condition of UV exposure. We might as well consider the dark skin as a trait going under the process of becoming a vestigial structure.
For example, although humans cannot manufacture their own vitamin C. Humans possess a defective copy of this gene that does not produce the required enzyme (or any other product). This gene was presumably disabled by mutation at a time in primate evolution when its loss was not a significant disadvantage, and now remains as a vestigial genetic sequence. (shamelessly copy pasted from http://www.bookrags.com/research/vestigial-structures-wap/)
Your rebuttal was on the cost of the cancer treatment, underlining the fact a dark skin might be a life saver. But I am not sure you would be able to hold the same argument in ten years from now, a treatment might become as cheap as a toothbrush.
Your second argument was , that as long as there would be a sun , a dark skin will always prove to be usefull. But if it was true, there would be no such thing as a light skinned person.
Your third and fourth arguments are valid, but if in 50k years, humans are still roaming this rock called Earth, then the whole species might as well be a failure.
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JGreyden,
“Since technology tend to even the chance of survival between light and dark skinned persons under the same condition of UV exposure.”
Actually, it doesn’t. Lighter-skinned people still die of skin cancer at much higher rates than do darker-skinned people.
“Your rebuttal was on the cost of the cancer treatment, underlining the fact a dark skin might be a life saver. But I am not sure you would be able to hold the same argument in ten years from now, a treatment might become as cheap as a toothbrush.”
Notice, I said treatment. Not cure. Treatment increases the likelihood of survival, but it does not ensure it by any means. Many people still die, even with treatment. Also, the treatment will not be that cheap in ten years. It will probably take centuries for that to happen.
“Your second argument was , that as long as there would be a sun , a dark skin will always prove to be usefull. But if it was true, there would be no such thing as a light skinned person.”
Lol. I see you’re not very informed about evolution.
But, might I ask, what is your “beef” with dark skin? This isn’t the first time I’ve seen you denounce dark skin. Do you think that phenotypic diversity is a bad thing? To relate this back to the original post, do you not think that darker-skinned women like Iman and Angela Bassett are beautiful?
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Getting in this conversation a bit late. I doubt very seriously Beyonce lightened her skin. My wife is a lot like Beyone in skin complexion, but can go from being White to being Black depending on the amount of sun she gets.
As for skin tone and heredity, there is no set rule. My wife is lighter than both her mother and father. She has two sisters: One is “black” and the other White. My wife ended up being somewhere in between.
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No, Col, she definitely did lighten her skin. I agree that people get darker and lighter depending on UV radiation, but the change is too drastic and, moreover permanent, to be attributed to that. Plenty of photos to back up this claim, but I don’t want to derail this post even more than it has been.
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Thanks for the info, Natasha!
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“Getting in this conversation a bit late. I doubt very seriously Beyonce lightened her skin. My wife is a lot like Beyone in skin complexion, but can go from being White to being Black depending on the amount of sun she gets.
As for skin tone and heredity, there is no set rule. My wife is lighter than both her mother and father. She has two sisters: One is “black” and the other White. My wife ended up being somewhere in between.”
Col, yes, Beyonce and your wife are mixed. From what I’ve seen, black-white mixed people have highly variable skin tones.
P.S. Natasha tends to attribute all European characteristics in mixed people to some sort of plastic surgery or cosmetic treatment, so take what she says with a grain of salt.
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FG,
Beyonce is NOT mixed. She is no more mixed than I or any other of the black commenters here.
What would qualify her as mixed? Because she is pretty?
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P.S. Natasha tends to attribute all European characteristics in mixed people to some sort of plastic surgery or cosmetic treatment, so take what she says with a grain of salt.”
Again… lolwhat? I think I’m the person who always says “What is black/African?” “What is white/Caucasian?” I’ve explicitly stated many times that certain features are not confined to certain regions of the world.
But FG, I know your agenda. Skew the facts (and evidence — did you not see the pictures I posted?), in support of the “mixed race/multiracial” movement. Interesting. And boring.
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“Beyonce is NOT mixed. She is no more mixed than I or any other of the black commenters here.
What would qualify her as mixed? Because she is pretty?”
I agree; Beyonce is not mixed in the general sense of the term. Funny how people like her and Vanessa Williams are given the “mixed” tag while others like Oprah and Whoopi Goldberg are not, despite having admixture.
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“Beyonce is NOT mixed. She is no more mixed than I or any other of the black commenters here.
What would qualify her as mixed? Because she is pretty?”
Beyonce is certainly mixed when mixed is defined as someone who has substantial amounts of ancestry from more than one racial group. Her mom is near-white. Presumably anyone who fits this biological definition of being mixed will experience this variable skin tone phenomenon. Now, what you’re saying is that Beyonce is not mixed in a sociological sense. People perceive her and she percieves herself to be black. I’m not so certain about this, though. She identifies as Creole and that ethnic designation often has connotations of being mixed race.
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“Her mom is near-white.”
Source please.
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FG, you’re a funny guy, you know that?
You seriously think you can determine if someone is “near white (in terms of race)” based on appearance alone? I’m LMAO at how you vehemently go against people one-dropping bi/multi-racisls as black, yet you bend over backwards to prove how “white” someone is.
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“You seriously think you can determine if someone is “near white (in terms of race)” based on appearance alone? I’m LMAO at how you vehemently go against people one-dropping bi/multi-racisls as black, yet you bend over backwards to prove how “white” someone is.”
The only sane way to determine race is by appearance. So I would say Beyonce’s mom is quite white. What I’ve been arguing against all this time is the separation of racial designation and phenotype for people of partial African ancestry. Everyone deserves to be given a designation that somehow corresponds to their external form. For some reason, white-black mixed people of white appearance are the only group not accorded this right.
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FG,
“The only sane way to determine race is by appearance.”
The only sane thing to do is to realize race is a man-made construct, with a tenuous relationship to reality.
And you seem to be contradicting yourself left and right. If you’re determining race by appearance, you’re essentially following the modern One Drop Rule, which you continue to rail against.
“So I would say Beyonce’s mom is quite white.”
And I would say, until you have Beyonce’s mom take at least two reliable genetic tests, you have no basis for that claim.
“Everyone deserves to be given a designation that somehow corresponds to their external form. For some reason, white-black mixed people of white appearance are the only group not accorded this right.”
I don’t think people should be given designations based on external form at all, but that’s beside the matter… What is a “white appearance?” Isn’t that totally subjective and thus not useful? Also, if my sister resembles many biracials and mixed Hispanics (which people claim she does), does that mean she should be designated as such despite her not being so?
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FG,
Natasha is right. How many of us “monoracials” have family or parents who are “near white”? My dad is LIGHTER than Beyonce’s mother, yet claims and is nothing other than what he is – a BLACK man.
We all have mixed ancestory, that’s no secret. My great grandfather was first generation Spanish who moved here from Spain. Though I love and appreciate all my ancestory, what purpose would it serve for me to consider myself to be Spanish or half Spanish? Same with Beyonce. I’m sure she has other races in her line, but both of her parents are black.
At some point, we have to stop trying to claim “other” ancestory that is so far removed and be who we are. There’s nothing wrong with being black.
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“The only sane thing to do is to realize race is a man-made construct, with a tenuous relationship to reality.”
The designations are both man-made and real.
“And you seem to be contradicting yourself left and right. If you’re determining race by appearance, you’re essentially following the modern One Drop Rule, which you continue to rail against.”
This doesn’t make any sense. The One Drop Rule argues that someone who looks Norwegian or Chinese but has a single drop of Sub-Saharan ancestry is actually black. The One Drop Rule disconnects racial identity from appearance.
“And I would say, until you have Beyonce’s mom take at least two reliable genetic tests, you have no basis for that claim. ”
Wait a second, you just said that race is man-made but now you’re saying it’s determined by genetic makeup that’s only apprehensible with late 20th century technology?
“I don’t think people should be given designations based on external form at all, but that’s beside the matter… ”
Well present day society gives people designations. That’s just the world we we’re born into.
“What is a “white appearance?” Isn’t that totally subjective and thus not useful?”
These designations are of course subjective, but people recognize them and act on them.
“Also, if my sister resembles many biracials and mixed Hispanics (which people claim she does), does that mean she should be designated as such despite her not being so?”
I seriously doubt this and you’re contention that you yourself look biracial.
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“Natasha is right. How many of us “monoracials” have family or parents who are “near white”? My dad is LIGHTER than Beyonce’s mother, yet claims and is nothing other than what he is – a BLACK man.
We all have mixed ancestory, that’s no secret. My great grandfather was first generation Spanish who moved here from Spain. Though I love and appreciate all my ancestory, what purpose would it serve for me to consider myself to be Spanish or half Spanish? Same with Beyonce. I’m sure she has other races in her line, but both of her parents are black.
At some point, we have to stop trying to claim “other” ancestory that is so far removed and be who we are. There’s nothing wrong with being black.”
But if your ancestry is overwhelmingly non-black and you don’t look black, isn’t it fair to adopt an identity that reflects this?
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“I’m sure she has other races in her line, but both of her parents are black.”
Her mom is in all likelihood predominantly white by ancestry.
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FG,
“The designations are both man-made and real.”
Real in what sense? Surely not biologically or chemically.
“This doesn’t make any sense. The One Drop Rule argues that someone who looks Norwegian or Chinese but has a single drop of Sub-Saharan ancestry is actually black. The One Drop Rule disconnects racial identity from appearance.”
Read: modern One Drop Rule. The modern One Drop rule is de facto and based on appearance.
“Wait a second, you just said that race is man-made but now you’re saying it’s determined by genetic makeup that’s only apprehensible with late 20th century technology?”
Genetic tests determine geographical origin, not race. If the genetic tests said that 75 percent of her genes are most common in Europe, then you’d have a case for “near white” since European peoples are classified as white. Until then, nada.
“I seriously doubt this and you’re contention that you yourself look biracial.”
*yawn*
Every time you have no defense it’s “you’re lying/take with a grain of salt.” I have no interest in proving anything to you concerning my personal life and I’ve never said I looked “biracial.”
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Islandgirl,
Same with my cousin–she’s darn near transparent and “just” Black.
Family from Spain–how interesting? Do you know what part they came from? I may have run into some of your “family members”. 🙂
FG,
The nicest thing I can say is that you are getting pwned–badly–and mostly by your own words. I don’t know if you are looking for permission from strangers (i.e., commenters on Abagond’s blog) to call yourself White, but if you are, I will bestow it on you 10 times over in the hopes that you will let. it. go.
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People need to understand physical appearance and ancestry are two different things. Ancestry and DNA are biological fact; however, that doesn’t mean they can “tell” someone’s “actual” race, because there’s no such thing as the “actual” race.
So, in that sense, it’s all about how people in the given culture see YOU (like FG says) or your parents/ancestors (like others say).
I am not sure which method is “better” (more accurate). I do believe races are highly subjective so I usually stick to what a person in question says and hos he/she identifies. It can be confusing, though, if what someone says clashes about my own cultural perception (it’s difficult for me to see J Lo or Wentworth Miller as non-white even though I respect their wish not to be identified as white).
I guess I’d always see a person whose parents are interracial couple as biracial, regardless of person’s phenotype.
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I already told FG that I’d probably see him as white before learning about his ancestry. 😉
FG, seriously, nobody here is your enemy.
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@Mira,
I think at one point you said that the residents of the Balkans have a slightly darker skin tone than other Slavs because they have a bit Turkish ancestry from the Ottoman days. Now, I doubt you would look kindly on a group of angry and discontented Turks who claim that you’re a Turk “passing” as a Serbo-Croat and that you’re living a lie. I’m also sure you would consider it absurd if they were to say that the bit of Turkish ancestry you may have outweighs all of the rest of your ancestry. This hypothetical situation parallels the one I’m talking about.
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Hey Jasmin!
Wow, Jasmin, that was my great grandfather so it is pretty far down the line. I don’t know much more than that. It is good to learn your ancestory though.:)
FG,
I don’t have anything against you, but that way of thinking sometimes irks me. If you want to consider yourself white, that’s your choice. *no offense to whites* But being white isn’t some sort of magical, mythical, wonderous thing. Though they may have certain advantages, they are still just people.
I guess people have to fight against the todem pole mentality.
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FG,
I thought you were biracial; I thought one of your parents or at least one grandparent was black. That’s how I understood it.
If you have some black ancestry down the line (like Islandgirl has Spanish), then I guess I’d see you as a white person with a bit of black ancestry.
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The problem is that in an America that whole-heartedly believes in “pure” bloodlines, parts of the family that don’t fit this myth are edited out.
Thus mixed people become black and white.
Beyoncé is indeed mixed. “Creole” in the U.S. is mixed African, Indian and French descent.
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@ Thad
did you ever end up polling your students about how they see themselves “racially”? If I recall, you mentioned something about this a few months ago.
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“I thought you were biracial; I thought one of your parents or at least one grandparent was black. That’s how I understood it.
If you have some black ancestry down the line (like Islandgirl has Spanish), then I guess I’d see you as a white person with a bit of black ancestry.”
As Thad said, in the US (as opposed to Latin America), races are thought of as discrete entities. Add to this that the black and white social groupings remain pretty antagonistic to each other as the content of this blog suggests. Thus, there’s a great deal of pressure to assume just one primary racial identity.
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Beyonce is not mixed! I thought the arguement before was that if you look a certain way, “Presumably anyone who fits this biological definition of being mixed will experience this variable skin tone phenomenon”, then you are mixed.
Sorry to disappoint, but Beyonce looks like a lighter skinned black woman. She looks black. And I believe those who classify her as mixed do so because she is attractive. Like Natasha said, there are darker blacks who are not known for their beauty (even though they may be) that have other ancestory but people aren’t so quick to point that out.
It’s classic. Anyone who is attractive is questioned about their heritage.
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What I’m saying, FG, your example with Turks wasn’t the best one, because Turks left a while ago; it’s not the same thing as having a black parent or a grandparent. (As I thought was your case- now I am not sure).
Serbo-Coratian is a better example, btw, since those two ethnic groups hate each other (more or less), and I do happen to be mixed (Serbo-Croatian), along with some other ethnicities. And to answer your question, I would feel uncomfortable if Croats would want to “claim” me as one of their own, but I do feel a bit uncomfortable when Serbs do it- but the discomfort is not the same because I live in Serbia and, while I’m not particularly patriotic or anything, I consider Serbia my home. Still, I prefer to say “I am from Serbia” than to say “I am a Serb”. And yes, that makes some people angry. And no, I don’t feel particularly bad when someone thinks I’m a Serb. Does that answer your question? (It was a question, right?)
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“What I’m saying, FG, your example with Turks wasn’t the best one, because Turks left a while ago; it’s not the same thing as having a black parent or a grandparent. (As I thought was your case- now I am not sure).”
Well, technically my dad’s family is mixed too. I wouldn’t look as white as I do if that were not the case. I would look more like Obama or Halle.
“Serbo-Coratian is a better example, btw, since those two ethnic groups hate each other (more or less), and I do happen to be mixed (Serbo-Croatian), along with some other ethnicities. And to answer your question, I would feel uncomfortable if Croats would want to “claim” me as one of their own, but I do feel a bit uncomfortable when Serbs do it- but the discomfort is not the same because I live in Serbia and, while I’m not particularly patriotic or anything, I consider Serbia my home. Still, I prefer to say “I am from Serbia” than to say “I am a Serb”. And yes, that makes some people angry. And no, I don’t feel particularly bad when someone thinks I’m a Serb. Does that answer your question? (It was a question, right?)”
That makes sense.
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I think the term mixed becomes moot when we are considering people whose family would have been considered one “race” for many generations. If Beyonce is mixed, so are other black Americans with significant admixture like Emmitt Smith (1/5 European):
and so are “whites” with African ancestry.
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@ Mira –
Just curious… Ever see the movie ‘Savior’ with Dennis Quaid? I thought it was a great film. Wasn’t for sure if it was ‘too close for home for you’ since some scenes are really disturbing.
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Ooooh, don’t get me started on that one!
I hate the fact Serbs are always portrayed as the major bad guys in that sort of movies, but at least this movie showed other sides, so it was a good thing. It was, however, full of factual errors (though, as I remember, they weren’t as big as in some other movies). I (and many people around me) thought some things were really disrespectful, for example, handling of rape. As I recall, father kicked his daughter out of house because Muslims raped her and she got pregnant, right? That sort of things don’t happen with Balkan fathers; maybe in some other parts of the world, but not here, women are not forgotten by their families after the rape- a father would direct his violence toward the rapist, not his daughter. Also I remember a soldier wanting to kill the child and the girl, I don’t think it’s likely to happen with a rape victim.
In so many ways, it’s a Mighty W. sort of movie, but it’s a bit harder to see that since locals were white as well. I don’t know what people in Croatia and Bosnia think about the movie, but people in Serbia didn’t like it, mainly because of mighty w. narrative and the fact we’re presented as wild, violent, evil, horrible beasts.
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*Should be 1/5 European/Native American.
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did you ever end up polling your students about how they see themselves “racially”? If I recall, you mentioned something about this a few months ago.
Yeah. I asked them to line up according to race and – after much hemming and hawing – they lined themselves up according to how curly their hair was. 😀
Beyonce is not mixed! Baaaaaaw!
Beyoncé’s mom is creole, creole is mixeed, end of story. Beyoncé is free to define herself anyway she wants, but she is indeed very mixed, genetically speaking.
Get over it. It doesn’t make her worth any more or any less.
And for the record? I’m married to a woman who is much darker than Beyoncé and whom I consoder to be much more attractive, so take kindly keep your presumptions to yourself, please.
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Thad,
This is a forum for free discussion and as long as I adhere to the rules, I am free to say or make any presumptions that I like!
If you’re referring to my comments, I was speaking in general terms that people like to put attractive blacks in the “mixed” category.
Also, you get over it! Given our history, being “mixed” would make her more valuable to some. Like I said before, Beyonce is no more mixed than anyone else on this blog.
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Thad,
Doesn’t seem like you and FG are arguing the same thing–you are talking about genetics, while he said Beyonce’s mom “looks” White so she (mostly) is. I wouldn’t hop in that boat if I were you.
FG,
You seem to be skirting the question Mira posed about having a Black parent or grandparent. Obviously you don’t have to answer personal questions here, but I’m curious why you have avoided claiming “recent” Black ancestry.
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Well, I suppose some people have to cling to the notion of racial purity no matter what. 😀
Btw, my wife is on this blog and is darker than Beyoncé. She also has Portuguese and Italian ancestry.
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“You seem to be skirting the question Mira posed about having a Black parent or grandparent. Obviously you don’t have to answer personal questions here, but I’m curious why you have avoided claiming “recent” Black ancestry.”
You gotta chill out. The “black” side of my family is quite mixed and has been for a very long time. We have a tradition of not glossing over our ancestors, regardless of what their “race” was. Now, the problem with this One Drop business you’re pushing is that it takes black African ancestry and blows it out of proportion. It should be treated just like any other heritage. Someone who’s predominantly black will naturally view their African roots as highly central to their identity. Someone who’s mostly white with some black ancestry may honor both their backgrounds but will naturally be inclined to give stronger weight to their European origins.
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The thing is, FG, it’s not the same to have a black grand grandmother and a black mother.
Please, don’t think I wanted to force you to reveal any personal info. I just thought you were biracial, because you talked about it. Biracial as “having a black parent or a grandparent”, not “some black ancestry”. Again, I know it’s personal, but you talked so much about these issues so I thought you’re comfortable with talking about it.
It’s nice when people don’t deny their ancestry, even if they can pass (for white). For example, Wentworth Miller (again!) who always mentions he’s part black. As far as I understand, it’s not a usual thing, for predominately white people to mention their black ancestors (unlike Native ancestors- everyone seem to like mentioning those).
If you do the same, it’s nice, FG. But it doesn’t change the fact you see One Drop Rule as a black thing, which, I believe, is incorrect- ODR was made by whites, not blacks. Sometimes it looks like you’re trying to say blacks adopted ODR mentality and now want to “claim” anybody whose great great great great grandmother was black.
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“But it doesn’t change the fact you see One Drop Rule as a black thing, which, I believe, is incorrect- ODR was made by whites, not blacks.”
Not exactly. Here’s an interesting essay on the origins of the ODR. It may surprise you:
http://backintyme.com/essays/?p=23
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However the ODR started, I’m against anyone trying to perpetuate it. The sad truth is that some people just don’t like mixies and don’t want them to have a stable identity like everyone else does. That sort of thing needs to be opposed as a form of prejudice.
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FG,
“Chill out?” Ha, let me introduce you to Mr. Kettle, Pot.
What does saying whether you are referring to “mixture” as a Black parent/grandparent have to do with claiming ancestors? Like Mira, I don’t understand your insistence on the term “biracial” (as opposed to multiracial, mixed, etc.) if you aren’t, in fact, biracial. If you are talking about “ancient” Black ancestry it seems like the only way anyone would “know” you were part-Black would be if a) you told them or b) you “look” Black (however they interpret looking Black to mean). A problem with that sounds like a dissatisfaction with the self–it’s not a big deal for people to think you are Black (or White or Asian or whatever) unless you (the general you) take issue with your appearance or think there’s something bad about “looking like” X group.
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FG,
Another question: Given how you are adamantly against anyone who perpetuates the ODR, how do you respond to Whites who label mixed people (usually celebrities) or yourself as Black? What would you say if someone told a White person she were White and the person responded, “No you aren’t; you’re Black”?
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Islandgirl and Natasha,
Thanking so much for putting some of these folks in check! We have been done this road so many times with the screwy perceptions of phenotype and genotype and some people still just want to be “stuck on stupid” so to speak.
Please, the only thing “significantly white” about Beyonce is all that horse hair on her head. Light skinned blacks are no more mixed than your everyday black person. Stop it.
It’s funny, Beyonce has a darker sister and a darker cousin from the “Creole” side and I heavily doubt the FGs and Thaddeus’ of the internet would be calling them “mixed”.
It’s not about heritage. It’s about skin color with them.
And like Natasha said, if every light skinned black woman who they find attractive is mixed, then why aren’t you calling our First lady or Oprah “mixed” when their non-black heritage is KNOWN?
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“What does saying whether you are referring to “mixture” as a Black parent/grandparent have to do with claiming ancestors? Like Mira, I don’t understand your insistence on the term “biracial” (as opposed to multiracial, mixed, etc.) if you aren’t, in fact, biracial. If you are talking about “ancient” Black ancestry it seems like the only way anyone would “know” you were part-Black would be if a) you told them or b) you “look” Black (however they interpret looking Black to mean). A problem with that sounds like a dissatisfaction with the self–it’s not a big deal for people to think you are Black (or White or Asian or whatever) unless you (the general you) take issue with your appearance or think there’s something bad about “looking like” X group.”
I can’t really follow this paragraph that well. First, I use terms “biracial”, “multiracial”, “mixed” interchangeably. They all mean pretty much the same thing to me. As I’ve mentioned many times before, I look whitish. I get asked about my background every now and then and tell people about it. I actually am quite happy with my appearance, even though it tends to draw attention.
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“Another question: Given how you are adamantly against anyone who perpetuates the ODR, how do you respond to Whites who label mixed people (usually celebrities) or yourself as Black? What would you say if someone told a White person she were White and the person responded, “No you aren’t; you’re Black”?”
Something mixed people have noticed is that whites generally don’t subscribe to the ODR. If you don’t look black, you’re not black to them, even if they know your background. They tend to categorize by phenotype rather than ancestry. Whites are not the wild racists they’re made out to be on this website. Many will acknowledge even mixed people who look like Halle Berry as biracial if they are aware of their family background.
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Anyway…enough of this topic.
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FG Many whites subscribe to the one drop rule let me tell you. Many whites think I’m not black. I deal with this all of the time even with blacks. When I tell them what I am it’s disappointing and the only thing that sticks in their mind is black. I can tell them I’m black, white, native american and asian, but the only thing they remember is black :0
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“FG Many whites subscribe to the one drop rule let me tell you. Many whites think I’m not black. I deal with this all of the time even with blacks. When I tell them what I am it’s disappointing and the only thing that sticks in their mind is black. I can tell them I’m black, white, native american and asian, but the only thing they remember is black :0”
Hmmm…that’s odd. I’ve never encountered whites who apply it and on the mixed websites I frequent online other people say the same thing. Conditions my vary by region, social class, and other factors. Who knows?
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{whistles and shakes head}
You’re right about the hate and the wierdness, FG.
And what’s stranger, Americans think their “rules” of classifying are the only “proper” ones on the planet.
And you’re correct to point out – as many people here often forget – that there are a lot of white attitudes towards race and even, in fact, a lot of different racisms.
And, repeating for the hard of thinking, creole is mixed. Always has been, always will be. If someone wanted to be simply black, they’d say it. If they are choosing a creole identity – no matter what their color – they are acknowledging a mixed background.
All the politically-motivated clucking of tongues isn’t going to change the fact that creole has been understood to be mixed since Jesus was a cowboy.
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By the way, FG, thanks for all the links to Backintyme. Those are some SERIOUSLY good articles.
Not that most people here would read them. Question the dogma of race? Heavens! That would mean we’d actually have to think about identity instead of just presume that it’s transmitted by blood! We wouldn’t want to do that!
And it this whole discussion shows how psychotic American views on race are.
I mean, here you’re being roundly chastized for claiming “mixed” status when you have black ancestry, for apparently you aren’t “REALLY biracial unless you have a black and a white parent. No matter what said parents are genetically or what they look like, they will be presumed to be “pure” as long as they make no claims to the contrary (and even, in fact, if they do).
And yet at the same time you’re being chastized for saying that the ODR is obviously false.
Well, you have at least OD, but you aren’t seen as black BY THE ACUSATION OF THE SAME FOLKS WHO APPARENTLY BELIEVE IN THE ODR.
😀
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The problem arises when people believe their cultural construct about race is natural, absolute and only possible.
It does look like FG’s experience might be different to other people’s here, so I guess it depends on where he lives.
BTW, Thanks for the link, FG.
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As for Creoles, here’s one thing I don’t get: if they (regardless of phenotype) prefer to be called Creoles, and not black, mixed or white, why don’t people accept it?
Of course, they must accept the fact others would still see them as black or white or whatever.
And I wonder whether only Creoles who are seen as black insist on being called Creole…
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mynameismyname, my point exactly. I have no problem with people being recognized for their heritage. I don’t care, really, it doesn’t affect me. But it doesn’t make sense to a) presume a person is mixed (read: more mixed than others) based on their appearance and b) ignore/dismiss those that have been determined to be mixed simply because they don’t look like what you presume to be a mixed person. I know I wasn’t the only one who sees the blatant inaccuracy and hypocrisy of that.
FG, we’re glad you look whitish. Supremely glad. We’ll throw a party and you can go join the white club; we know how anxious you are to. But stop bringing it up every blog post and acting like we, strangers on the internet, are what is stopping you from being recognized as white.
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“And I wonder whether only Creoles who are seen as black insist on being called Creole…”
There are pure white people who identify as Creoles. I think the stereotypical Creole is a “quadroon”, i.e. a person who is about 1/4 black and has the Jennifer Beals look.
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By the way Mira, I can’t help but detect a bit of hypocrisy in your statements. Perhaps I’m wrong. But you like to imply that some people’s choice of a mixed identity is related to some attempt to flee being “black” (which in practice translates into the African American oppositional culture). However, you seemed to get awfully defensive when I brought up Asiatic admixture in the Balkan population that has resulted in a darker complexion for the inhabitants of that region than the European norm. Are you trying to escape your “Turkishness?”
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No, I’m not trying to escape my Turkishness. I don’t know if I have a Turkish ancestor (most likely I do; one of my great grandfathers was described as “looking like a Turk”- which doesn’t mean anything, of course, but it’s possible that some of his ancestors were Turks).
I’m ok with it. But like I said, I thought you were biracial in a way that you have a black parent or a grandparent, which is not in any way the same as your Turkish example. I even gave you a better example (Serbs and Croats).
But now that we’re at it, Serbs generally don’t like to talk about the possibility they have Turkish ancestors- which is in a contradiction with the popular “they raped us” narrative. Black people don’t seem to have this problem.
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“And I wonder whether only Creoles who are seen as black insist on being called Creole…”
The commenter Lynette on this blog is Creole and she calls herself black. Most of the “black” Creoles I’ve met in the South call themselves black or black Creole.
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Oh, I didn’t mean all black Creoles want to be called Creole! I meant, of those who insist to be called Creole, instead (insert race), are they mostly black?
In other words, I’m asking whether some people who are black want to escape that by insisting on “no, I’m Creole”. I don’t know if that’s what Beyonce is doing. I’m afraid I don’t know much about her (she’s really popular in my country, but her songs sound generic to me, so I don’t really follow her career).
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^I do believe that is what she is doing, but I don’t think it is common amongst black Creoles. Maybe amongst half Creoles like her. 😉
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Creole is an ethnicity sort of like Hispanic. It emphasizes Latin values like family and Catholicism, and many members speak French. You can be of any race and be a Creole. However, like Hispanics, the Creole ethnicity is dominated by mixed race people, so that’s what it’s associated with. Now, in the US, the term “black” translates into “African American”, which is a completely different ethnicity with roots in Anglo-America, not the Francophone world. Someone who says they’re “black creole” is basically saying they are descended from Creoles but now identify as African Americans.
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Anglo blacks and whites have been attempting to extinguish the Creole culture since the 1800s.
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FG,
There are pure white people who identify as Creoles. I think the stereotypical Creole is a “quadroon”, i.e. a person who is about 1/4 black and has the Jennifer Beals look.”
I recall Lynette mentioning more than once that there is no Creole “look.”
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In the US, phenotypical descriptions and ethnicity are conflated. “Black” and “white” refer to both cultures and physical appearances. There are quite a few very African-looking people who immigrate to the US who amaze people by refusing to call themselves “black.” It is attributed to self-hatred. But in fact these people don’t deny they have African ancestry. They just don’t want to be associated with the African American ethnicity.
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FG,
What is “very African looking” in your eyes?
Natasha,
Lynette is a proud black woman. And most Creoles I’ve interacted with were equally proud of their blackness. Don’t let some of these folks mislead you.
For what its worth, most of the racially ambigious blacks I’ve met, Creole or not, were defiantly black identified. Trust me, I went to school with a bunch of them!!! LOL.
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Hey myname!
Welcome back!
This is “very African looking”.
So are these.
My point, I know what was meant by the comment, but Africans, like everyone else are so diverse.
Lynette is very proud. Which is great!
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FG,
You should read more carefully–I didn’t say Whites identifying biracial people as “biracial”, I said Whites identifying someone who claims to be White as “White”. Henry Louis Gates is mostly White–do you honestly think any White people would believe that if he (accurately) called himself White? Doubt Blacks would either, but the ODR is alive on both sides, yet the only people who can use it to “deprive” anyone of anything are White folks–Black folks neither giveth nor taketh away White privilege.
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@ Thad – you said,
“Yeah. I asked them to line up according to race and – after much hemming and hawing – they lined themselves up according to how curly their hair was.”
— Thanks for sharing that. I’ve been wondering about it. Funny how I’m a White guy “com um pe na Africa” while in Brazil (due to my hair), yet I was never considered anything but White in Brazil – while ironically people were thinking me “mixed with something” in the U.S.
Your students’ use of ‘hair type’ to distinguish one another has left me perplexed since I was never seen as anything but White in Brazil.
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@ FG
Fascinating read on that essay link. Great read overall. Thanks…
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MNIMN,
About Creoles in school–very true. I think it’s most likely because they will get fewer questions/challenges by identifying as Black (whether they are of mostly African descent or not). The Black community is used to accepting people of various racial backgrounds, either because they were outcast from the other group for miscegenation (i.e., some White mothers of Black biracial children) or because their looks didn’t fit with a racial stereotype (i.e., an Asian girl who “looks” Black). It doesn’t usually work the other way around–if I walk up into the Irish-American heritage club, people will probably chuckle at the “novelty” of a Black Irish person, but never really look at me the way they’d look at Brian O’Shea.
The Whitest White person could claim to be Black and we’d say OK, lol. 😛
Natasha and Islandgirl,
I think it surprises some people that there are Black folks who a) don’t want to be White, b) aren’t all that interested in how “White” (by blood) we are, and c) don’t see Whiteness as better (or worse) than Blackness.
My mom was doing a genealogy project last summer, and as she was poring through the census records she found our relatives, and proclaimed with shock and dismay that they were all White people. I laughed so hard, because she was all, “This can’t be right!” and I reassured her that even if it is, we are definitely still Black. 🙂 I’m guessing plenty of other Black folks would have the same issue, if they traced their ancestry, given that so much Native and White heritage “assimilated” into Black over the years. For me, it’s interesting on a historical level, but not on an identity level–I’m not interested in being anything other than just plain Black.
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FG says,
In the US, phenotypical descriptions and ethnicity are conflated. “Black” and “white” refer to both cultures and physical appearances. There are quite a few very African-looking people who immigrate to the US who amaze people by refusing to call themselves “black.” It is attributed to self-hatred. But in fact these people don’t deny they have African ancestry. They just don’t want to be associated with the African American ethnicity.
laromana says,
Thanks for your EXCELLENT analysis of the difference between phenotype and ethnicity as it relates to how “Black” and “White” are defined in the US.
It’s always frustrated me when SOME Americans INCORRECTLY identify ANYONE of Black African/partial Black African descent as SOLELY “Black” (read African American) and then WRONGLY accuse Afrolatinos, Afro Carribeans, Creoles, or Africans of “self hatred/trying to deny their blackness” for NOT IDENTIFYING themselves as SOLELY “Black” (or African American).
A person of Black African/partial Black African descent should not have to DENY their culture or ethnicity in order to fit the PRECONCEIVED racial classifications of OTHERS.
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Abagond,
In this world of muti-racial and bi-racial individuals, I find all women of all races (mixed included) beautiful. To suggest that just because these women are half-white or half whatever means they aren’t truly black or truly beautiful I think is irresponsible.
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These are all very interesting comments. My intention was to just read the article for an assignment for my class, but it became much more than that. Hence, the reason I have even decided to comment on this. I guess my only problem with some of these comments is the idea that black is just BLACK. I have found that a lot of people my age do not know their cultural or ethnic heritage. I do not mean to be ignorant in any of these statements, though I may still come across this way. I just don’t know what exactly is black in america. Is this going strictly off of the tone of one’s skin. Diversification has taken place whether we acknowledge it or not. The issue comes into play when we begin to define things that are not set in terms of black and white into black and white. Our society has molded us into individuals that categorize everything. As a result, this limits us to very standard ideals for a variety of people. Because i am dark-skinned I am black. No. I am mixed with cherokee indian, irish, creole, jamaican, and much more, but if you look at the color of my skin I am just another statistic in a vague category. Unfortunately, in my community I am seen as an outcast. There is an unspoken caste system within the black community that I have experienced. Being to light-skinned or too dark-skinned is not as accepted so people like me get scrutinized by the very people I have identified with all of my life. I guess I just don’t understand what BLACK is? Is anyone just black?
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I am from Kenya.
In our country, if you are of mixed race you’re not considered ‘one or the other’; you are called ‘half-caste’ acknowledging that you are both black and white. (or black and asian or whatever the case may be).
Second: Your comment on Vanessa’s green eyes vis her very light complexion:
I have a nephew, as dark as I am, and with no known white heritage, and his eyes are a deep green. Ditto one of our well known singers called Helen Mtawali. She’s quite dark (at least by US standards) but her eyes are grey/green and again, no known ‘white’ genetics.
You can check her pic here (http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/images/saturday/instinct240109_06.jpg)
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@Tumi
Thank you I am Nigerian and my cousin has greyish eyes, and my uncle is dark skin with hazel eyes no white ancestry here. Eveyone thinks they got it from my granddad who is albino and has blue/green eyes . Oh well.
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Beyonce! You are #1!
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tyra banks is not beautiful sorry. she is too fake. i have seen here change so much since i first saw her and i think she looks bad now. i find black women and all women beautiful but i also think many white women are beautiful too. i remember when i saw the movie batman with kim basinger and i thoguth she was she was the most beautiful thing i had seen. there are lots of beautiful women in every racial group but since white women are a minority i do want to give credit to them too. my lis of most beautiful white women and not in an order or age as i know that some of these women are older now
kim basinger
claudia schiffer
stephanie seymore
christie brinkly
angelina jolie
megan fox
catherine zita jones
brook shields
grace kelly
sharon tate
ava gardner
that chick from braveheart monica something, sorry
linda evans from that old western show
the one thing about all of the women above is that they are mostly natural too but i think linda evan dyed her hair but she is beautiful no matter.
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I still think Beyonce is the sexiest black woman alive.
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I have seen lots of women who look better than beyonce. she is cute but not what you call realy beautiful. she reminds me of shakira and that they both are cute and sexy but not really super beautiful like some other women. i always thought that lena horne was very nice looking and think that vanessa williams is the nicest looking of that bunch on that list. to above i always admired grace kelly so much class and really amazing beautiful. to me she is the essence of how a woman should look and act.
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does anybody remember tina louise from gilligans island? I remember thinking that she was so perfect and from what i read and saw she was just blessed and a natural beauty. if i could look like anybody it would be her when she was young. she had it all going on.
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Had to notice that none of these girls are African. What’s up with that?
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I think some black woman are beautiful but I can’t think of any other black women who look as nice as these women on the list but I see beautiful latin women everywhere. There are so many you cannot name them all. Most black women are very fake too and this is not real beauty and latin women are natural beauties. not to make comparisons but latin woman are the nicest.
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I admire tina lois i saw her in a move and i think no one like her. she is perfect and so beautiful body. black womens okay but not compared to other womens so many need too much to be pretty.
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Beautiful Brown says,
There are so many you cannot name them all. Most black women are very fake too and this is not real beauty and latin women are natural beauties. not to make comparisons but latin woman are the nicest.
Abbie says,
black womens okay but not compared to other womens so many need too much to be pretty.
laromana says,
The comments above clearly illustrate how much ANTI-BW/RACIST images in American media/culture have hurt the way Black beauty is perceived.
Even though women of ALL RACES (often MORE NON-BW than BW) use enhancements (breast, butt, cheek implants, botox, lip plumping,hair weaves, nose jobs, facelifts, etc.) , many believe the LIE that it is MOSTLY BW who are “fake”.
In reality, MOST people in America RARELY/NEVER see images of REAL BW with natural, in shape figures/beautiful faces. In stead, American media makes sure to feature MOSTLY fat, unattractive BW that most conform to ANTI-BW LIES, MYTHS, and STEREOTYPES in order to trash the HUMANITY, DIGNITY, and FEMININITY of BW .
There are beautiful and ugly women in EVERY RACE but because of ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE and White beauty supremacy in America, BW are INTENTIONALLY presented in a NEGATIVE way (in comparison to WW/NON-BW) to make EVERYONE think ALL BW are ugly and ALL WW/NON-BW are beautiful.
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no brainwashing here i have eyes i see in front of me. stop hating what you do not have, is not media that makes me think is myself. every womans more beautiful than black everywhere i travel. when you put black on cover nobody buy magazine so they use white women to sell because look better. you are too much hate. ugly personality is not beautiful either.
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@Abbie:
Yeah, Sarah Jessica Parker is a raving beauty. Riiight.
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Abbie,
Your DELUSIONAL, ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE don’t make your LIES true.
Were you living in a cave when the Italian Vogue issue with ONLY Black models SOLD OUT GLOBALLY?
Talk about being BRAINWASHED! It’s ANTI-BW RACIST/HATERS (and White beauty supremacists) like you who create the FALSE impression that ONLY BW are ugly and that ALL WW/NON-BW are beautiful.
It is this type of HATEFUL/WARPED/IGNORANT thinking that is truly UGLY and needs to CHANGE.
Beautiful Brown says,
Most black women are very fake too and this is not real beauty and latin women are natural beauties. not to make comparisons but latin woman are the nicest.
laromana says,
As an Afrolatina I assure you that not ALL Latinas are beautiful and they are certainly no more likely to be beautiful than Black American (or other Black) women.
In Latin America, in countries such as Argentina, Bolivia, and Venezuela, 70% of middle and upper class women have had some form of plastic surgery.
It’s interesting that NO ONE is accusing these women of being “very fake” or “needing too much to be pretty” but BW who get FAR LESS if ANY plastic surgery, are supposedly “very fake”. Again this is another example of ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE.
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@Abbie:
Yes, good riddance to you.
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Abbie says,
Sara jessica parker is jewish not the same. and some think she is very cute. even with her big nose she is cuter than most black women.
laromana says,
Abbie, recently, SJB was voted the LEAST SEXY WOMAN on a male poll. Many men DON’T AGREE with your “opinion” of SJB. Also, there’s no evidence that SJB is considered to be “cuter than most BW” either. Your ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE is RIDICULOUS.
Abbie says,
just because you say black women are beautiful does not make it so. your men all want other women so what does that tell you? good-bye to ugly losers here.
laromana says,
Abbie, just because you say BW are ugly DOESN’T make it TRUE.
Also, ANTI-BW BM who are ANTI-BW RACIST/HATERS (like you) and are such SELF HATING LOSERS that they trash the BW who BIRTHED them, have NO bearing on the beauty/desirability of BW.
Why don’t you GET LOST with your IGNORANT/STUPID/ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE.
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Abbie says,
Sara jessica parker is jewish not the same. and some think she is very cute. even with her big nose she is cuter than most black women.
laromana says,
Abbie, recently, SJP was voted the LEAST SEXY WOMAN on a male poll. Many men DON’T AGREE with your “opinion” of SJP’s supposed beauty. Also, there’s no evidence that SJP is considered to be “cuter than most BW” either. Your ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE is RIDICULOUS.
Abbie says,
just because you say black women are beautiful does not make it so. your men all want other women so what does that tell you? good-bye to ugly losers here.
laromana says,
Abbie, just because you say BW are ugly DOESN’T make it TRUE.
Also, ANTI-BW BM who are ANTI-BW RACIST/HATERS (like you) and are such SELF HATING LOSERS that they trash the BW who BIRTHED them, have NO bearing on the beauty/desirability of all BW.
Why don’t you GET LOST with your IGNORANT/STUPID/ANTI-BW RACISM/HATE.
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Laromana, thanks for the comment. And yes, white woman go extra lengths to be beautiful and no one says they are “fake”. I think brainwashed black people do themselves more harm than white people could ever do.
My family on both sides bears a very mixed ancestry of african, apache, cherokee, isreali, english, irish, french creole/cajun and spanish that we know of. We all know that we are African-American and believe me, it is so much easier to just claim or be African-American! Many times we are mistaken, but that’s ok. We still say African-American because we are.
I think the purpose of this site was to let the world know that the black women mentioned as beautiful are according to white people’s view and perspective. These women are mixed so to speak, but not as mixed as you may think. Beyonce Knowles, I still don’t know why she made this list, because to me she is not beautiful. Yet she is not ugly either. Her mother is creole, however, she is African-American. My grandfather on my mother’s side is french/creole/cajun–he passed for white for many years, but he was African-American. He had very pale skin, loosely curled hair like your average jew, and grey eyes, but he was black. No matter how mixed African-Americans are they are still black. Isn’t that wonderful?
White America still view these women as black, but the point the author of this website was making is that these women are not dark skinned and that black people should not jump on the bandwagon with white peoples’ perspective of black beauty or anything for that matter! You know what I mean, like politics, who to vote for, christianity, birth control, abortions, and so forth.
I was shocked that Angela Bassett made the list. She’s not light skinned nor a beauty like Salli Richardson or Lynne Whitfield who definitely should have made the list. Also Gabrielle Union, Meagan Good, Janet Jackson, Venetta McGee, Pam Grear and Gladys Knight should have been mentioned too. I say this frankly, because Tyra Banks aired a show about Black models featured in a magazine with absolutely no white women featured and it was the biggest selling magazine issue in the history of Italy/Europe. Everyone in Europe wanted to see those Black women. Some of those models were jet black! In the local Targets, in the small southern rural town that I live in, the jet black barbie dolls are always sold out. Mostly, white people live in this town!
We must understand that Black beauty is mysterious and very exotic and it can manifest from the palest white to the bluest black and only the Black race can create such a thing, which has made Black people truly unique. So we should do a website featuring Black beauty according to Black peoples’ perspective.
So despite of what America says, the rest of the world admires African-American women and the men too!
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These woen are NOT black, they are MIXED!
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Yeah, that’s why it reads: The most beautiful black women ACCORDING TO WHITE PEOPLE.
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You’re welcome GreenSorceress and thanks for your excellent comments regarding Black beauty and how the rest of the world admires African-American men and women too.
Black women can be African, Afrolatina, Afrocaribbean, or African American but the MAJOR lesson America NEEDS to LEARN is that BW COME IN A DIVERSE RANGE OF BEAUTYand ALL FORMS OF AFRICAN BEAUTY ARE EQUALLY BEAUTIFUL.
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Ok, I’m Somali-American and I need to point out some frustrations I’ve been noticing on this blog when it comes to the physical attributes of black and/or african women.
Listen, if you are from East-Africa, you DO NOT HAVE EUROPEAN FEATURES. I’ve been asked by both black and white ppl if I’m mixed, Indian, etc. because there is no possible way I could come from the continent of Africa and not be mixed with my features.
I’m just super pissed off that because I have a “narrow nose” I have European features. Its pretty much been proven by scientists and paleontologists that humans most likely originated from East Africa, so if that is the case, if anything, white people have african features, not the other way around. I don’t have drop of white blood in me and I’m over ppl constantly talking about african features versus white features as if there is only one look for each group of people. When ppl say african features, what in the hell are you talking about? And the same goes for white features. Africa consists of hundreds and hundreds of DIFFERENT ethinic groups; we don’t all look the same. So much ignorance about the diverse CONTINENT of Africa. Its really killing me.
Also, this is another thing I’ve noticed in this blog entry that i wanted to point out. Many Africans born and raised in Africa do not identify as black because most africans, at least with Somalis, identify themselves based on their nationality than on their race.
For instance, Somalia is an ethnically homogenous country so race was never really a concept. There was never or continues to be miscegenation of different ethinic or racial groups because there are no different groups. The only ethinic group in Somalia is Somali and they make 99% of the population. Yes, there is discrimination towards various tribes and shit, but that has more to do with clanism than it does race.
When my parents came here, they certainly suffered from racism, but the way in which they deal with it was entirely different because because blacks in america don’t have the same history of racism as africans and its unfair to assume we internalize racism the same way or that we should.
I was born in the states, but i don’t care if you call me black or Somali or whatever because my experiences with race are completely different from my parents because I was born and raised in a racist country, at least in comparison to where they are born. Hope that made sense.
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>>Phil — These woen are NOT black, they are MIXED!<<
I won't buy that either from white people suddenly claiming Obama is not really black, nor will I buy it from black people.
I doubt you'd hear a black person over the age of 55 making that statement. Being "mixed" didn't anyone into the "White" swimming pool.
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Helen Gurley Brown, the former long-time editor of “Cosmopolitan” was asked in the 80s why she had never selected a black women for the cover. She was pretty forthright about her reason: People see a black woman on the cover and presume it’s a black magazine.
Now, the thought that a woman who regularly bought “Cosmopolitian” would see a black woman and think it’s “Essence” is laughable…but I suspect Brown knew her audience.
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>It’s always frustrated me when SOME Americans INCORRECTLY identify ANYONE of Black African/partial Black African descent as SOLELY “Black” (read African American) and then WRONGLY accuse Afrolatinos, Afro Carribeans, Creoles, or Africans of “self hatred/trying to deny their blackness” for NOT IDENTIFYING themselves as SOLELY “Black” (or African American).
A person of Black African/partial Black African descent should not have to DENY their culture or ethnicity in order to fit the PRECONCEIVED racial classifications of OTHERS.<
This may disappear when we Boomers are dead. At this point in time, the United States is still firmly under the control of people who grew up when the most significant social identification element was skin color…period.
"White" and "Black" was the first most important criterion–everything else followed from the decision a person made as to whether to treat you as black or white. Even if you were clearly Asian, you faced the issue of whether the person dealing with you at that moment chose to put you into his "black" category or "white" category.
This controlled all aspects of life when we Boomers were growing up. It controlled where you lived, where you went to school, where you worked, whether you got emergency medical treatment…even whether the police would bother to investigate your murder.
You're going to see the echos of that thinking until we Boomers are dead.
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“I doubt you’d hear a black person over the age of 55 making that statement. Being “mixed” didn’t anyone into the “White” swimming pool.”
That there was legalized discrimination against mixed individuals 40 or 50 years ago has no bearing on whether these women are indeed mixed.
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>I’m a biologist. Race is not a biological reality. At the most, there are genetic markers, but these do not indicate “race,” but geographical distribution.
And all we have done is to group certain visually discernible genetic markers into a taxonomic division of “race.” But it’s arbitrary.
It would be an interesting stunt for a geneticist to develop a different “racial” taxonomy using more significant genetic markers. Blood type, for instance, is quite relevant–that’s why soldiers have their blood types identified on their dog tags.
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“That there was legalized discrimination against mixed individuals 40 or 50 years ago has no bearing on whether these women are indeed mixed”
As I said, the United States is currently under the control of people who were raised in a black/white society, and that will echo until we are dead. You’ll have to live with it until then.
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I am a bi-racial American born male and, maybe, as one poster has suggested: perhaps, when the baby boomers have all passed away, it will be a kind of liberation.
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These are very animated and processed women (fake). weaves and all that fake staff. Where are the real black women????
Its a shame black people, its a shame!!!!
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i am jealous of the beautiful lady speaking. *sigh* 😦
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Oooooh….she’s sassy! I think I’ve seen that tv-series, “Bitter Tropic” in finnish television, if I remember correctly.
But still, Angela Basset is the ultimate hottie for mie. 😛
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im black and african and i love it i like being different but sometimes i hate it but you no what black is beuaty and i get compliments all the time plus weres christina millian shes supper pretyy toooo
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This is an example of how the one drop rule is used as a weapon to de-legitimize the success and popularity of mixed people. These women are framed as “black” (despite some of them hardly looking it), but not as any sort of “black”, but as less authentic “light skinned black women.” This being the case, the favorable views of these ladies are dismissed as mere prejudice and “colorism.” Mixed people are NOT a less legitimate, lighter version of blacks. They have their own distinctive physical characteristics, and just as people can have a preference for the appearance of blacks (actual ones) or whites, they can have a preference for mixed looks (count me in here).
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Hey, how about “Jada Pinkett Smith”
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What about that lady in Detroit 187?? Aisha Hinds or what her name is? She not that light skinned but looks mighty fine to me.
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@ sam
Haha… you Scandanavians
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@king; what? Nice woman. And looks fine even if her hair is a bit short.
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I agree, she’s got a certain “something” and i like the shot hair.
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that lady in that video she is gorgeous to me
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ok this list is according to white people
i don’t find mariah, thandie, tyra,and vanessa williams to be all that and even hally berry she is pretty but they are just too commercial for me.
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@medium; it is a abagonds list according to the whites. I am white and like Aisha Hinds more than those above, not that those women are not beautiful… 😀
@king: yeah, there is something there that I like too, don’t ask what it is…
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Aisha looks like a man, to me. Her nose is too big. Sounds like a very smart and nice women. The only women I found attractive with short hair was Halley Berry and Alec Wek. My favorite Alec Wek, Iman, Channel Iman, Angela Bassett, Erykah Badu, Waris Dirie and Hawa Ahmed. I love to see of women of east African descent. Does anyone know of models from the Fulani tribe. That would be awesome.
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It’s mostly light skinned women or ones from the west horn of Africa (Ethiopian, arab, somalian, djiboutian, etc.)
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I don’t think anyone can say what an entire group of people prefers. If it is true then it’s mainly true of American White people. As far as dating and marriage goes, European men particually Germans want dark skinned African women. Sure they may temporarily settle for a light brown or light bright skinned Black woman but they really want that dark African woman. I can’t blame them they are beautiful humble women. And considered more exotic than westernized women. But no one wants to be used. I’m sick of White folks, Black men and the media playing Black women against each other. Sick of it!
I’m cured.
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and beyonce is ugly without makeup so she doesn’t count.
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I am engaged to be married to a beautiful black women later this month,and I have to say I disagree. I like black women who are the essence of black. I love everything about a strong black women. From her captivating brown eyes to her thick hips, luscious lips even her fingertips. I could go on and on. But all I’m trying to say is I love black women period. Not black women with hints of white.
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Wtf. All these people are lightskinned except for Angela and Iman. Wth with the comment-shes so light her and her green eyes. Wth does that mean? White people value light skinned girls is what I’m getting from it. (im lightskinned but this is uncomfortabing)
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Angela Bassett:
Iam from Colombia, South America. I find Angela Basset a most beautiful and interesting woman and also most atractive. I can watch all her movies because she is a superb actress. Love, love her with a passion!
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@abagond heck yes Leona Lewis!!! everyone should look her up so beautiful
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i surprised you didn’t mention Naomi Campbell becuase white women worship her along with tina turner. white men would jump over halle berry to date naomi. i think all these women are white version of black beauty. i think nina long and gabriel nion are way better looking than most women in this list. halle and beyonce are jst safe looking, but i always believed making it in hollyweird is all about who you get with because vaness williams looks basically white and she is not a popualr as halle.
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Similarly to many of my BW friends, I have been called attractive, pretty and beautiful in equal measure but at times I have been likened to people that are not known for living up to what is perceived by the masses to be beautiful. IMO this has been done with the purpose of I believe ‘putting me in my place’ Or ‘enabling that person to feel unthreatened’ by me by demeaning me and making me a ‘safe lil negro’ or in some contrasts, and this has happened to me when I have been out with white female friends to ‘elevate them by demoralising me’ which for the white male who has been the one doing the flattery, is supposed to show the friend how much he likes them and how f’in ugly he finds me by contrast!!!!!! I also must acknowledge that on very rare occasions when the ‘likening label’ is dished out, that person may actually see a resemblance and it does not necessarily follow that they dont find it a pleasant or favourable one.
What does that tell me? It should say that half the people are right and the other half are wrong – right
Unfortunately it doesnt and while I have no illusions about my looks – sometimes I look great, other times less so, sometimes I feel like I look like shite, I resent the fact that these people feel they can tell me about myself. The one time I responded, it ended up that I had a chip on my shoulder and they couldn’t seem to understand why I wasn’t grateful that they had deigned to comment on me!!!!!!
I have looked at many of the threads by abagond associated with BW and Beauty and, really thinking about it I have come to the realisation that of the people who felt that they could make these comments, none of them would generally be considered attractive either. Why did they feel they could make these comments? Because everyone has to have someone to step on is my theory. Why don’t I do the same? Because, I don’t feel that badly about myself that I need to ‘step on’ the next person to elevate myself. Unfortunately there are still many people out their with illusions of superiority due to their race and whilst of course this doesnt justify things, it enables an understanding is necessary to combat it!!!!!
It is very easy to allow those negative labels to define who you are, and contribute towards a pessimistic perception of self. In my case, a ‘friend’ of mine occasionally will bring up one such comment made to me in the past as she identified early on that I didnt like what was being said to me (by a WW friend of hers). She finds it funny and despite having explained to her my theory surrounding my dislike of the comment, I find it and her sad as with regards to her own looks (her mother is afro caribbean and her dad a seikh) she often refers to herself as ‘too odd looking’. Having, by her own admission been surrounded by white people and having no concept of her own cultural identity and thus no personal pride in self.
Despite the fact that she has also been privy to men complimenting me too (when I went to visit her in her newly adopted town it was as if they’d never seen a BW before LOL), at this, she has often been mystified and would say ‘why is it that WM don’t find me attractive like they do you, oh I know, its because you’re cute and petite (I am barely 5ft)?’ When I point out wryly that they might, just might find my looks ‘acceptable’ or whatever other adjective used to define beauty its almost like she cant comprehend it!!!!! But then, I have rarely heard her say anything positive about black females except to say that she felt she resembled Leona Lewis (which she does not) and I didn’t have the heart to tell her that when people have seen photos of me with curly blonde hair extensions they have said I look like her too . Basically to laugh at me and my reaction prevents her from looking deeper and acknowledging the whys and wherefores in terms of her own looks.
The point that I am trying to make here is that she like many people have been ‘conditioned’ to accept that the looks of WW will always be preferable to those of BW and that this represents the thoughts of the majority. I sincerely think that progress is happening but sadly not as advanced yet as we would hope. I think it will take at least another generation yet for it to properly start to emerge and come to the fore where beauty in whatever ‘guise’ is celebrated and not necessarily just based on the superficial and transient appeal of looks but of personality and heart too.
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This bit was missed out from the previous post – unsure why …
*But then, I have rarely heard her say anything positive about black females except to say that she felt she resembled Leona Lewis (which she does not) and I didn’t have the heart to tell her that when people have seen photos of me with curly blonde hair extensions they have said I look like her too (yeah right, on a dark night with my face averted maybe lol) *.
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The most beautiful black woman I’ve ever seen:
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I agree with you on a lot of levels, but the thing is we still buy their magazines, watch their movies, by their beauty products, and participate in their functions. When we actually create a venue for us(black people) to showcase our beauty, we hold the media’s standard of what we think is beautiful. It’s not white America’s fault, it’s our fault for continuing to support this lie. In the sixties if black people felt discriminated against, they boycotted! It was simple. Today we continue to spend our hard earned money on this bull. All you have to do is stop and when your kids are exposed to it just tell them the truth. I could give a damn what white America thinks about black women. Like Nina Simone said when performing a song about the beauty of black people in refrence to white people “simply ignore them”
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Most of these women are mixed. They aren’t black. I don’t know why people go by the one drop rule. It’s a racist notion and if you go by it you may well be racist yourself. These women are beautiful but most of them I would not call black. Mariah Carey is only like 1/4 black so wtf. She’s white.
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@Karan
That women in the link is not black. She’s mixed or something else. Your ridiculous. Black people are people with naturally tightly coiled hair along with skin ranging from the lightest shade of brown to the darkest or are of subsaharan black African descent. A black person can be anyone of color so if you meant it like that then yes she would be black as in a women of color. But that isn’t what you meant is it.
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@ noobs
For good or for bad, we’ve had centuries of people who have some mixture being considered to be Black. At this point, if they consider themselves to be Black and if most in society see them as Black, then I think it’s an acceptable use of the term “Black.”
Remember, Blackness is a social construct.
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@noob
I noticed that the first time I read this post. Four out of ten of these chicks are definitely mixed(not counting Vanessa Williams. I think she may be MGM, but I can’t be sure). If people are going to make such a big deal out of their mothers being white and the European aspects of their phenotype, then why tf include them in a list of the most beautiful black women? If it’s such a big deal, then don’t call them black. Simple as that.
*black-predominantly Sub-Saharan African ancestry
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@King
For good or for bad, we’ve had centuries of people who have some mixture being considered to be Black.
Centuries???
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I also should state that you have to note that the title of this post is:
“The most beautiful black women ACCORDING TO WHITE PEOPLE”
So Abagond himself is not saying if these women are Black or not.
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@ Cynic
Yes, since the early eighteen hundreds, people who have been of mixed race were considered Black – albeit they were separated by perceived rates of admixture—Mulatto, Quadroon, Octoroon—but all considered to be “Black.”
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Karan,
Wow! She is gorgeous! One of the most beautiful black women I’ve ever seen too. Thank you for being honest. Online, there seems to be such a backlash or lashing out on lighter sisters, which is really counterproductive to us. We are all black. And I like to give credit where credit is due.
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Noobs,
She is my complexion and I’m as black as they come. She could easily be Ethiopian or Somalian. The beauty about us is our variety.
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@King
Okay, but those were only a FEW Southern states that included 1/8th, 1/16th, 1/whatever rules into their state legislatures back in the 19th cent. Mixed race people have been recognized by the first colonizers & the US government for the majority of our nation’s history. It wasn’t until 1920 that the US national census removed mixed race individuals(mulattoes) from the national census only to allow them to be acknowledged 80 yrs later by allowing citizens to check of ‘two or more races’. It’s only 2011. That time-span does not equate to “centuries.”
Also, where did those white people say that these women were regarded as “black” on their beautiful women’s list? I was under the understanding that these girls were on non-raced based list before they popped up on this one.
Again, if Abagond has an issue with these women having white mothers and their Euro influenced phenotype, then why bother adding them on the list? We regard these women as black in other circumstances, but say they are white when it comes to beauty? You can’t see how that can cause a mixed race person confusion? We can pretend as if they are “black” and that their white heritage doesn’t matter, but when you look at the post and comments you can see that just isn’t the case.
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“We can regard these women as black in other circumstances, but say they are white when it comes to beauty?…..We can pretend as if they are “black” and that their white heritage doesn’t matter…..”
Well, that’s what I was trying to discuss with noob. I think that we should just go with Black (if that’s what the women themselves consider themselves to be). I don’t think that the term is strictly scientific.
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@King
Saying someone with a non-black parent is also non-black is not rocket science. Most people on this website understand the concept of Black vs mixed race. That is why I can call these women ‘mixed’ and you have no problem understanding what I mean by that.
I think we should just go with mixed, so black women don’t have to worry about mixed race women representing and setting the standard for their beauty. Just look at the words of this post and the comments. I believe limiting who we call ‘black’ will help ameliorate some of the insecurities and resentment.
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I don’t know.
We’re not really dealing with simple parentage here, so much as we’re dealing with complex genetics. It’s easy, when you have a child who “looks mixed,” but sometimes that doesn’t happen. Sometimes the child looks to be much closer to one race than the other, and that’s where they self-identify. On the other hand, sometimes a child has two “Black” parents, and somehow comes out with gray eyes, light skin, and wavy hair. Both of his parents look “Blacker” than he does. Is he Black or is he mixed?
The “mixed look” that most people are talking about is based on how the genetic die is cast in each individual case, so what is going to be the rule? Anyone who doesn’t look like they just came over from Senegal is mixed? Only children with one non-Black parent are mixed (regardless of their genetic makeup?) Should we consider Supra-Saharan Africans to ALL be mixed? Where exactly do we draw the lines?
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@King
“Is he Black or is he mixed?”
Only strangers ask these types of questions and they shouldn’t matter much when it comes to a person’s identity. How their family and friends see them is what is most important. If you are close enough to a person of mixed race you usually know what race their parents are. That sort of information is just naturally shared over a matter of time. It’s really not that hard.
I mean I know the race of everybody that is important to me, so I don’t understand how this can be confusing to anyone.
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You mean like strangers who make up lists entitled “The most beautiful black women according to white people?”
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@King
I mean strangers as in someone who barely knows nor genuinely cares about you.
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Are we talking about how society classifies people or how acquaintances/friends/family classify people?
What I’m saying is that deciding that people who “look mixed” are no longer considered Black is complicated because a lot of lighter-skinned Blacks were “mixed” somewhere down their genetic tree. They may have had generations of people who were considered two Black parents as ancestors but they may still be light-skinned, light eyed, or have a different hair texture. Are they Black or should we do a genetic test to determine what the racial percentage are?
On the other hand, there are different shades of brown all across areas of relatively unmixed sections of Africa. There are even differences in hair texture among the many African peoples. So who is going to be the “default” definition of all Blackness? How are you going to define “mixed” in a world of such intra-racial diversity?
When it comes to Whites, there are major differences between groups, yet they are all considered to be White.
Are this Frenchmen…
And this Spaniard…
And this Scandinavian…
All one race? Are all the people in between “mixed?” No. We consider them to all be White, even though they clearly come from different groups of people who have different looks. That is because “Whiteness” is a social construct. So why should we look at Blacks, who have varying ethnic influences that effect their makeup in a different way?
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@King
Your trying too hard to make something simple sound complicated. Genetic admixture or not if I have 3 rooms and I fill one with all black people, one black-white mixed race, and another white, you would be able to successfully discern between the three based on the phenotype you saw alone.
Yes, there are light skin blacks.
Yes, there are dark mulattoes.
That being said most times it isn’t difficult to spot out those who are mixed and those who aren’t. People with ancestry that favors Sub-Saharan Africa tend to have a phenotype that favor Sub-Saharan Africa. People with ancestry that favors Europe tend to have a phenotype that favors Europe. Those with ancestry that doesn’t favor either continent tend to fairly physically represent both.
If someones race is so damn significant, then all you have to do is simply ask them what it is.
It really isn’t that hard…
People in the Caribbean have no problem figure out the difference between black and mixed, so I don’t see why ppl in the US would have it too.
Guess which one is black and which mixed.
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To the contrary. Perhaps you are trying to make something that is more complicated than you want to admit, seem simpler than it actually is.
Going around and calling people browns, or coolies, or mulattos, or whatever, is as fraught with it’s own problems, and petty jealousies. There are always going to be people who don’t fit the standard definitions, no matter how many times you try to cut the pie.
Again, I say that White people have quite a bit of mixing going on on the other side of the race spectrum, and nobody seems to care UNLESS they are mixed with too obviously mixed with Black. Nobody (except for Hitler) makes the argument that Blondes are the TRUE White people, and that darker haired, and darker skinned Italians are another race, do they?
”
For all you know they are BOTH mixed—you just assume that because it is more obvious visually, in one than the other, that the lighter one is mixed and the darker one pure.
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@king: And Hitler had a black hair. Go figure.
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Going around and calling people browns, or coolies, or mulattos, or whatever, is as fraught with it’s own problems, and petty jealousies
-I don’t get this. What is the problem with calling mixed people mixed? And what is petty or envious about it? Do you mind expounding?
I say that White people have quite a bit of mixing going on on the other side of the race spectrum, and nobody seems to care UNLESS they are mixed with too obviously mixed with Black.
-I don’t understand why you are bringing this up. This statement doesn’t seem to have anything to do with the conversation. Why do you want me to care about admixed white people? How does this relate to whether mixed ppl are mixed?
For all you know they are BOTH mixed—you just assume that because it is more obvious visually, in one than the other, that the lighter one is mixed and the darker one pure.
-Did you seriously just make an assumption about me supposedly making an assumption??? I didn’t say ANYTHING about the lighter or darker one being anything. This statement proves my point. You just indirectly answered my question. And I bet you had no problem doing it bc it really is that easy.
“Nobody (except for Hitler) makes the argument”
-I think Godwin was right…
“It states: “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1 (100%).”[3][2] In other words, Godwin put forth the hyperbolic observation that, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope—someone inevitably criticizes some point made in the discussion by comparing it to beliefs held by Hitler and the Nazis.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
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“-I think Godwin was right…”
I’m pretty sure that we all covered the Godwin’s Law definition sometime back in the 1990s. However, when you are making a statement that ‘nobody says something’ and Hitler actually is the obvious exception, (see blonde & blue eyed Aryans) then you have to exclude him. Godwin’s Law is not some kind of a guarantee that Hitler will never be mentioned ever again on the internet, or that ANY mention of his ideology is a gimmick.
“What is the problem with calling mixed people mixed? “
I didn’t say that you couldn’t. Please define a “mixed person?”
“Why do you want me to care about admixed white people? How does this relate to whether mixed ppl are mixed?”
Are you saying that you don’t understand how comparing and contrasting the way that other cultures relate to “mixing” could possibly give us a better insight or context into how our own culture looks at it?
“Did you seriously just make an assumption about me supposedly making an assumption???”
Actually no. You gave me a choice of two girls in a teenage music video, then asked me to guess which of the two of them was mixed, after making these statements earlier:
Statement #1
Statement #2
Statement #3
It wasn’t difficult, given your statements, to make a reasonable deduction that you thought that:
1) You can tell which people are “mixed” just by the way they look.
2) Darker Skinned people are probably not mixed, lighter skinned people probably are.
Therefore I simply brought out that both could be mixed, because your assumption that you can tell simply by looking at them is false.
That was not a blind assumption. If you think that was an unreasonable deduction, then that is fine, but I completely disagree.
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@King
“Godwin’s Law is not some kind of a guarantee that Hitler will never be mentioned ever again on the internet, or that ANY mention of his ideology is a gimmick.”
-I said I think he was right. You just came out of nowhere with that Hitler stuff. I believe you implicitly intended to make that HItler reference bc you wanted to make it seem as if it’s racist to say mixed people aren’t black.
“I didn’t say that you couldn’t. Please define a “mixed person?”
-I was referring to this statement.
King: “Going around and calling people browns, or coolies, or mulattos, or whatever, is as fraught with it’s own problems, and petty jealousies”
I wanted to know what those problems were, as well as what you meant by “petty jealousies” by using terms that denote racial mixture.
-A mixed person is anyone that is not predominantly of one racial ancestry.
Are you saying that you don’t understand how comparing and contrasting the way that other cultures relate to “mixing” could possibly give us a better insight or context into how our own culture looks at it?”
-I’m saying it doesn’t relate to our conversation.
“That was not a blind assumption. If you think that was an unreasonable deduction, then that is fine, but I completely disagree.”
-And this is what I am talking about! If you can make a simple deduction with previous knowledge from my statements, why can’t you do the same by looking at someone’s phenotype? I’m sure the assumption you made wasn’t complicated, so why would you think it’s hard for someone to discern btwn mixed and black? Once again, people in the Caribbean and many other regions of the world do it all the time. Why do you feel Americans aren’t smart enough to do the same?
-Which of the three statements you block quoted from me did you disagree with?
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@The Cynic
“why can’t you do the same by looking at someone’s phenotype? I’m sure the assumption you made wasn’t complicated, so why would you think it’s hard for someone to discern btwn mixed and black?”
You are using circular logic. You are assuming that it’s possible to determine a person’s racial group when you are supposed to prove that it is possible. You are talking about black, white and mixed as if you could separate these groups. They are different shades on the same color spectrum. There are no objective border lines.
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@Eco
No, I’m really just using the same method King used. Taking previous knowledge and making a simple deduction. Of course, their are mixed people that can “pass” as black and light skinned blacks that can pass as mixed. That being said, black people tend to favor Africa and black-white mixed folks tend to favor Europe and Africa. You don’t need an EXACT mixed look or an EXACT black look. It’s not rocket science. People in other countries do this ALL of the time. If your logic was so sound the US would not be the outlier in regards to the one drop rule.
I’ll concede my point when someone tells me why Caribbean & most other populations around the world can discern btwn black & mixed while the US can’t.
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I’ll concede my point when someone tells me why Caribbean & most other populations around the world can discern btwn black & mixed while the US can’t.
The US was a white settler state with a high number of white women. The initial founding European stock was mostly English, Scottish, Irish, and German, who tended to have different ideas about “whiteness” than some Italians, Spanish or French.
These two things combined caused the one drop rule to be put into effect where anyone with any noticeable African ancestry was considered “non-white”, i.e. Black. Different rules were established in the Carribbean and elswhere where different European groups ruled or white women were not large portions of the initial conquering population.
So I don’t think it’s a matter of not being able to discern between black and mixed so much as it is different ideas about “black” and “mixed”.
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@Shady_Grady
The only thing the large white settler population & presence of white women had an affect on was:
1)North American race relations
2)The prevalence of racial mixing
You have to remember that the one drop rule has not been in effect for the majority of America’s colonial and independent history. Our ideas about what was “mixed” and what was “black” weren’t all that different from the Caribbean and other areas prior to the enactment of one drop rule laws.
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But North American race relations are precisely what your question addresses, yes? The particular history of slavery and race-thinking in British conquered areas of the New World is why the one-drop rule took place and is why with a few exceptions there’s not been a huge cultural space for delineations between black and mixed, the way there was is say Brazil or South Africa. A person with the exact same heritage might identify as black, white or mixed in the US or the other countries.
One-drop rules were mostly formally legally adopted post-Civil War but these laws codified a reality that was already occuring in slavery. Some mixed people could and did identify as white, if they were “lucky” enough to be in a situation where that was possible and they could get away with it. But most didn’t. Children with “black” parents were considered “black”.
Harold Ford is “black” by today’s standards b/c he has two “black” parents though it’s apparent he has recent European ancestry. Put him in Brazil and he’s not Black. Put him in a few countries and he might even identify as “white”. So much of this is social.
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@Shady_Grady
My question was not addressing North American race relations(the way whites & blacks interacted), but the one drop rule specifically. Your history of the formation of the one drop rule is not the same as the one I know. That is a better example of why North American racism was so much more virulent with less race mixing and mingling.
“but these laws codified a reality that was already occuring in slavery.”
-Where is the proof of this? I have seen too many historical examples of the usage of the term ‘mulatto’ to believe this is true. I’ve also seen copies of older census forms with spaces reserved for those of mixed race. From the New York Times,
“Long ago, the nation saw itself in more hues than black and white: the 1890 census included categories for racial mixtures such as quadroon (one-fourth black) and octoroon (one-eighth black). With the exception of one survey from 1850 to 1920, the census included a mulatto category, which was for people who had any perceptible trace of African blood.
But by the 1930 census, terms for mixed-race people had all disappeared, replaced by the so-called one-drop rule, an antebellum convention that held that anyone with a trace of African ancestry was only black. (Similarly, people who were “white and Indian” were generally to be counted as Indian.)”
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/30/us/30mixed.html?pagewanted=1&ref=raceremixed&adxnnlx=1310407230-oxuEfZTPznkHdPlDwulAWw
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The link you quote shows that the one-drop rule was “an antebellum convention that held that anyone with a trace of African ancestry was only black
So that supports what I wrote One-drop rules were mostly formally legally adopted post-Civil War but these laws codified a reality that was already occuring in slavery.
With few exceptions (i.e New Orleans and a few other places ) the children of slave women were considered black. After slavery was abolished the whites started to legalize what had been up until then mostly custom. So for example in the Plessy v. Ferguson case, a man who was if anything more “white” than “black” was still considered black enough (1/8th) to be forced to sit in the black section of the streetcar.
There was no significant (New Orleans aside) legal/cultural recognition of differences between “mixed” people and “black” people. The key thing as far as whites were concerned was that “mixed” people weren’t white and needed to be kept apart just as black people were. So “black” grew to include people as varied in appearance as Lena Horne or Walter White to Duke Ellington or Etta Baker or Jelly Roll Morton, even as some of these people sought to define themselves as not-black. Culturally and legally there was less and less space to do so post civil war. One drop rule was externally imposed but also used as a unifier by “black people”. It didn’t matter if you were light like Kathleen Cleaver or not. Most people with acknowledged African ancestry ended up self-identifying as black.
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@Shady_Grady
The NYT link does not support what I was referring to in your statement. I was referring to the second clause, highlighted in bold.
Shady_Grady: “One-drop rules were mostly formally legally adopted post-Civil War but these laws codified a reality that was already occuring in slavery”
Where in my link does it claim that these rules were set in place all over the country during slavery?
“So I don’t think it’s a matter of not being able to discern between black and mixed so much as it is different ideas about ‘black’ and ‘mixed'”
This statement basically says the same thing, but in different ways.
No matter what is accepted as Bk in the US, the fact remains that most ppl who look like Mariah Carey are not predominantly blk. Most ppl who look like Rahida Jones are not predominantly blk. Most women who look like Noemie Lenoir, are not predominantly blk. Most men that look like Joakim Noah or the dudes from LMFAO are not blk. And the small percentage of predominantly blk ppl that look like them, don’t look black, but look mixed instead.
If anything all you have proven is that the US has skewed what is accepted as black to the point where someone would actually look at a pale skinned girl with curly hair and blue eyes and “pass” her off as a black women knowing that the majority of black women look absolutely nothing like her.
What sense does it make to assume a women who looks like this is black when the overwhelming majority of black women in the US look completely different?
http://www.theplace2.ru/archive/noemie_lenoir/img/72786_Noemie_Lenoir_.jpg
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Another point that I wanted to make, was that it’s not always about how somebody looks, but what their parents/ancestry/heritage are/is.
If you can’t tell that someone is mixed by looking at them, the next step(if it matters that much) is to find out what the race of their parents is.
That isn’t hard considering information of that kind is passed naturally.
Walking down the street I can’t see any reason why I would want/need to know Halle Berry’s race, so whether she looks predom. black or white definitely wouldn’t matter to me. In fact, I can’t think of any daily instances where knowing a strangers race by first glance would matter. Of course, if I personally knew Halle it really would only be a matter of time b4 I found out she was mixed. That type of information is shared naturally over time.
That is why there is no problem with any of us saying Halle Berry is a mixed/non-blk woman. It doesn’t matter what she looks like bc we already know what race her mother is.
Jamaican is apart of my mother’s identity, but you couldn’t tell what she was by looking at her alone. Does that mean it’s logical for her to throw away her heritage and declare herself African American bc someone assumes that is what she is?
Most Americans can’t tell if someone is Japanese, Chinese, or Filipino just by looking at them. Does that mean those people shouldn’t be considered or identified as such bc strangers can’t tell what they are?
If we know what Alicia Keys looks like and what race her parents are, why is it so hard to call her what she is? Mulatto/mixed
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@bpcheer
Dude i saw that women in the link on a pakistani related picture. Shes middle eastern. Calling her black os like calling am east indian black.
To everyone else
Overall it is impossible to tell someones ethnicity just by looking at them. You may as well just call yourself physcic which i don’t believe any of you are.( if you are then…. Share your powers with me…. Please).
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@The Cynic
“I’m really just using the same method King used.”
No. You are using circular logic. You are assuming the thing you should prove.
Like when you mentioned the three rooms:
“if I have 3 rooms and I fill one with all black people, one black-white mixed race, and another white, you would be able to successfully discern between the three based on the phenotype”
You are assuming that it is possible to divide people into these three groups. So your reasoning is:
it’s possible to determine to which group a person belongs -> it’s possible to determine to which group a person belongs.
You are doing the same thing when you are bringing up Caribbean people.
You are assuming that they can “discern between black & mixed”. So your reasoning is:
it’s possible -> it’s possible.
You are going in circles without proving that it is in fact possible.
It’s not. Sometimes people can notice that someone looks a bit like the native people of some vaguely defined part of the world, but it’s a guess. Maybe an educated guess, but still just a guess.
Is this girl black, mixed or white?
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3060907/Black-parents-give-birth-to-white-baby.html
If she is black, then aren’t all white people black?
If she is mixed, then who is “pure”?
If she is white, then doesn’t “race” simply mean “color”?
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@Cynic…the US customs on who is considered “black” are no more invalid than the rest of the world’s rules on who is considered black. I don’t think this is an out of line statement. We are talking social convention here as much as anything else.
The NYT article pointed out that “an antebellum convention that held that anyone with a trace of African ancestry was only black”. If that’s not the one drop rule I don’t know what is. Pre-war if you had noticeable or acknowledged African ancestry you could be legally treated like any other “Black” person.
Black-White mixed people can look “mixed”, “black” or occasionally even “white”.
Obama, Ben Harper, Slash, Alicia Keys, Halle Berry, Mike Hart, Boris Kodjoe and Jennifer Beals all have one white parent and one black parent. They also all have completely different phenotypes. They also may identify differently but that’s their call. Generally both because of internal decisions and US culture there’s not room to identify as mixed (though this is changing) and there’s definitely not the room to identify as white. It can go the other way as well. The UK actor Stephen Graham, who looks unambiguously “white” to me has mentioned that he is “mixed race” b/c of his Jamaican grandparent.
http://www.eyeforfilm.co.uk/feature.php?id=336
So bottom line these things are cultural. There is no bright line dividing “black” people from “mixed” people, especially since in the US so many “black” people have some level of white ancestry.
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There was this documentary I once saw, forgot the name, but one american athlete, a black guy, wanted to trace his roots back to Africa. In actuality his roots were in Ireland and Scotland. The guy was a bit surprised about that. His “blackness” was only few generations old. White guy and black woman (US born) had kid who went on to marry a black man, and they had kids who married black spouses. But beyond those few generations, it was all snow white. Even the original black mother was “mixed” trough and trough. So when talking about black americans and what is black, it really is cultural thing,
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@Eco
That little baby is black bc both of her parents, and therefore the majority of her ancestry, is black.
I already covered the fact that it’s not just about the way someone looks that determines their race. Their actual ancestry is the most important factor. Just bc you can’t tell what someone is by looking at them doesn’t mean anything.
Can you tell someone is homosexual by looking at them? Not all of the time. Of course, their are clues and hints we can prejudge them on, but no matter what we assume they are by looking at them, they will always be gay based on their sexual preferences alone.
It’s the same thing with race. A Chinese girl is Chinese whether you can discern btwn her and a Japanese girl or not. My family is Jamaican American whether you confuse us for African Americans by our looks & residence.
Do you disagree with these statements?
“if I have 3 rooms and I fill one with all black people, one black-white mixed race, and another white, you would be able to successfully discern between the three based on the phenotype”
And yes, I did use the same method King used. I applied prior knowledge and made a simple deduction, not a blind assumption.
@Shady_Grady
“Obama, Ben Harper, Slash, Alicia Keys, Halle Berry, Mike Hart, Boris Kodjoe and Jennifer Beals all have one white parent and one black parent.”
-I already covered the phenotype thing. I never meant to make this a purely looks argument. It simply went that direction bc of the nature of King’s retorts. All of those people that you named are mixed bc they are not predominantly mono-racial in ancestry. It’s as simple as that. Their varying phenotypes are insignificant due to the knowledge of their racial background.
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@ Cynic, but all of the people I mentioned have different looks and different takes on their identity. For some of them what they call themselves has changed over time. So just saying they are “mixed” and that’s that isn’t really correct when some of them do not identify that way.
In the same fashion that “white” in America can vary from Tilda Swinton or Heidi Klum to Monica Bellucci or Kim Kardashian to Casey Kasem or Tony Shalhoub, so can “black”.
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@Shady_Grady
“In the same fashion that “white” in America can vary from Tilda Swinton or Heidi Klum to Monica Bellucci or Kim Kardashian to Casey Kasem or Tony Shalhoub, so can ‘black’.”
-Your still not getting it. All of those women are predominantly of European descent. They are mostly mono-racial in ancestry. THAT is why they are considered “white.”
“Obama, Ben Harper, Slash, Alicia Keys, Halle Berry, Mike Hart, Boris Kodjoe and Jennifer Beals”
-Are not mono-racial or Black in ancestry. That is why they are considered mixed.
It’s just not the same thing…
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First of all, why do we care who “white people” think are the most beautiful Black women? All women are beautiful no matter who thinks they are or aren’t. I also found your “most of these women have white or almost white mothers” comment offensive. Like we need European blood in us to make us attractive…as if
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If a baby has a White father, and a Black mother, the child’s genetics is not 50% White and 50% Black. The genetics is dependent on the luck of the draw. The child will carry some markers that are predominantly seen as White, and some that are predominantly Black, and many that are shared. But phenotypically the child may lean slightly or strongly toward one phenotype. It’s not all about simple ancestry, it’s about what the child inherited genetically and how those genetics have played themselves out visually. But then there are still many different ways you can look at it.
If a child is born (even to Black parents) with a very predominant White phenotype, then it’s hard to say that the child is Black. It may also seem confusing to say that he’s White, but only because, in most cases, people’s babies match the look of their parents —but clearly, not always.
This is why I am saying that all of this is not quite as simple as you think it is. There are more ways to look at it than just one. And in the end, that’s all that it is, “ways of looking at it.” That complicates things.
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Hello again! I’m being a little long-winded here, but hopefully you’ll find it interesting.
I was reading the comments towards the beginning, and while I know it’s off-topic I’d like to talk about some of the reasons Black in Brazil is different from Black in Louisiana or Martinique, which is different from Black in, say, Connecticut, Jamaica or South Carolina. You see, I’m taking a fascinating summer course on the Harlem Renaissance at the moment, and as we build up towards the Renaissance itself, Professor Mbodj has been lecturing about the history of Blacks in America, and then New York, and then Harlem (each subject with a focused day in class), and some of the things we’ve been talking about I think you would find interesting, Abagond. History is the foundation on which everything we do is built, whether we know it or not. This is especially true of race and racism, because there is nothing really inherent about race. History is what made whites white; most of today’s race relations have a historical basis, and it’s sad because, to put it simply, things didn’t have to turn out this way. I think that’s great to talk about, because it shows that things can change, stereotypes can be overcome, and there is no fore-gone conclusion.
You see, mainly, the difference in how race is viewed in different parts of the world comes from 1.) the race of the population majority, 2.) the geographic and socio-political location of the place, and, if it’s a part of the world that suffered through European colonization, 2.) which country colonized it (this is especially important when thinking of the Americas, each of which for the most part has the language and some of the mores of the European country that colonized it). You see, Portugal colonized Brazil, and the Portuguese colonization is more distinct than one would think from, say, the English colonization, or the French colonization, or the Dutch, the Belgium, etc. colonization. You can see the differences in the way Blacks were treated in New York during the Dutch and the subsequent English colonizations.
Have you heard of the African Burial Ground that was uncovered in NYC? That’s one of the artifacts of the changes that happened during this time period. You see, when the Dutch originally colonized New York, they brought over enslaved Africans right from the get-go. The wall for which Wall Street was named, in fact, was built by Black hands. During this period, Black couples, though still enslaved and marginalized, were married in the same churches as white couples, buried in the same burial ground, had significantly more legal rights, and had greater opportunities to become what is today called half-free (they were ‘freed’, and had property rights, though in truth the release was conditional – they still had to help their former masters any time they were asked, their children, born and unborn, weren’t freed along with their parents, and they had to pay a lifelong fee annually in cash or kind to remain at liberty). All of this changed in 1664 when the English took control of the colony. “At that time, at least 9 percent of the eight thousand settlers [in New Netherland] were Africans, and there were communities of slaves and free blacks.” (A quote from The History of Slavery in New York City, by the New York Historical Society.)
The English changed everything. The first thing that happened was, to get around a law by the Parliament of Britain that Christians could not be enslaved, it was announced that Africans couldn’t be baptized and become Christian, but could merely be “Christianized.” (Makes your blood run cold what people will come up with to make sure their wallet stays thick, right?) Blacks could no longer be buried in the same graveyard as whites, which is why the African Burial Ground was created – they could no longer have legally recognized marriages, and certainly not in the same churches as whites – and laws of all sorts restricting the movements and possessions of Blacks, mostly free Blacks, sprang up. This led to several slave rebellions that were brutally crushed, and led to even more suppression, torture, murder, political blackmail unleashed on Blacks. And the English told each other that the reason the rebellions were happening was because they were too soft on their slaves, which was pure stupidity, since none of the rebellions could hope to match the strength and scale of the rebellions that happened down in the South.
All of that difference between Dutch and English laws are important because different European countries viewed race, race-mixing, slavery, etc. in different ways. Not every European country subscribed to the One Drop idea the English got in their heads. English and subsequent American ideas held that free or enslaved status was passed through the mother, and then made it as unthinkable as they could for a Black man and a white woman to sleep together. There were European countries, however, that ruled that if the father was white, the child could not be a slave, thus freeing the children of more than one race. So you see, in areas where laws like that were practiced, a higher population of mixed-race persons sprang up, and the strong stigmas against mixing races couldn’t take hold with the same strength as they did in many parts of America.
And I know this may all seem strange to bring up, but I thought this might be interesting to many people who read this blog, and I think one of the things that many Blacks in America have been deprived of is knowledge of their heritage. People, especially White people, never really seem to think of the fact that Christopher Columbus had African men in his crew; throughout the history of European colonization and settlement in the U.S., there has never been a period to my knowledge where whites were acting alone. The first man to be killed in the Revolutionary War was Black, the Louis & Clark expedition had several Black members, the very first days of the American colonies had, not enslaved Blacks, but indentured Blacks, many of whom left their indenture after the years stipulated and became respected members of the early Colonial community, some owning their own plantations, though later the whole idea that free Blacks were a threat was created and so definitions based on race began to appear in laws, in court rulings, and much more strongly in the declared attitudes of the average white person.
I hope people find this interesting! If this is annoyingly long or pedantic, I’m sorry. I like to talk about things like this.
Abagond, thank you again for this blog, and I’ll go back to quietly lurking now.
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@The Cynic: Mulatto, I think, is one of those words that shouldn’t be used. It comes from the same root as Mule, and from its creation was always meant to be pejorative. Anyone can feel free to correct me, but I think a word that was supposed to link mixed-race people to donkeys is not one that should be used, if it can be avoided. Just my two cents. 🙂
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Why do some put “mixed” in quotation marks, as if mixed race people don’t exist? Recognizing the distinctiveness of mixed people is important for a number of reasons.One is health. There is increasing recognition of biological race differences in susceptibility to disease and responses to medical treatment: http://www.forbes.com/2005/05/10/cx_mh_0509racemedicine.html.
If people of diverse racial heritage are ignored by medical research because of culturally-based hypodescent concepts, how are we to know what these populations are most at risk for and what treatments suit them best?
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Because we are discussing the definition of “mixed” and therefore are being careful as to how it is being applied. Without a solid definition, it is difficult to know when to use the term legitimately–thus the quotation marks.
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@King
I already handled the “looks” argument with the ancestry one.
Also, you’ve ignored all of the points and questions I raised in the last reply I sent to you.
@FG
I noticed the same thing. I have no idea why saying ppl who aren’t predominantly mono-racial in ancestry are mixed is so controversial.
@Sakeh
I see no problem with the word. The term ‘mulatto’ had already had its meaning changed to ‘hybrid’ before being used as a term to denote balck-white mixed race individuals. Lol Europeans were literally calling these people hybrids, a combination of two races, and not mules!
Many, if not most, ppl who object to the term mulatto only do so bc of their resistance to an individual of mixed race identity that is separate from black and not bc of any alleged “negative connotations”.
Why do ppl get so emotional and resistant over a mixed person identifying as something other than black? Idk, beats me. So far I’ve got either an inferiority complex or plain illogical sensitivity.
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Hybrids? When did Europeans call themselves hybrids? Never heard, and I am a European.
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@The Cynic: Well, I think the root of the word is unfortunate, then, so I won’t use it. I have a question, though: do you self-identify as a person of mixed-race?
I just think that telling other people how they’re supposed to identify themselves is, well, insensitive. Some people with a white mother and a black father might choose to identify as black. Others, mixed-race. I don’t think they need to be told they’re not allowed to identify as either one. There’s no cut-off point, s’far as I know. White people use that idea of race purity, but it’s pure foolishness – especially since for a lot of whites, especially from the southern countries like Italy or Spain, where North Africans (before their expulsions) were a part of the population for a long time, their heritage is not as Caucasian as they seem to think. I understand from the standpoint of medicine, but in terms of someone self-identifying, well, it’s up to them.
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@ Cynic
“Also, you’ve ignored all of the points and questions I raised in the last reply I sent to you.”
I’ll have a look. I’m just getting back.
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I would be somewhat offended if I had a child with a black mother, who would claim that our child is only black. Like I would have nothing to do with it.
Excuse me, but half of the genes in that kid are mine.
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@Sekah
-No, I do not identify as a person of mixed race. I would say that I am mono-racial.
-I am not telling anybody to do anything. If you wanted to call yourself a mouse, then that is your right. Of course, you would never really be a mouse. Though, pretending nv hurt anybody…
-I don’t care much about white ppl and ideas of racial purity. It hardly relates to the essence of this conversation considering I am not advocating racial purity. That doesn’t even make sense in a nation where most ppl aren’t pure.
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@The Cynic
“That little baby is black bc both of her parents, and therefore the majority of her ancestry, is black.
I already covered the fact that it’s not just about the way someone looks that determines their race. Their actual ancestry is the most important factor. Just bc you can’t tell what someone is by looking at them doesn’t mean anything.”
So, every human is black? That’s what you implied. Thanks to mitochondrial DNA we know that all people share ancestors and we do know that these ancestors were black. Because they were black, so were their children and their children’s children and so on, and so on. So, according to your reasoning every human is black regardless how they look. We all have black ancestors.
Again,
If she is black, then all white people are black.
If she is mixed, then everyone is mixed.
If she is white, then white is a kind of black.
Whichever option you pick it still leads to contradictions with your previous statements. The girl’s existence proves you are wrong. It is impossible to construct borderlines between black, mixed and white.
“Do you disagree with these statements?”
Yes, I do. You are simplifying the situation to the point when reality becomes distorted.
Race, like sexuality, isn’t a Boolean variable. You cannot divide people into neat groups because there will always be those who defy categorization. There are no borderlines between the groups.
“And yes, I did use the same method King used. I applied prior knowledge and made a simple deduction, not a blind assumption. ”
No. You are not deducing. You are using circular logic. You are assuming that it’s possible to categorize people without proving that it is possible.
If you want to use the 3 rooms situation as evidence you need to prove that it was possible to divide people into these three groups (rooms) to begin with. Present the method that allows to determine to which room a person belongs.
If you want to bring up Caribbean people you need to prove that they can categorize people correctly.
Define the groups (“black”, “mixed”, “white”) and explain the method that allows Caribbeans to determine to which group a person belongs.
Earlier you wrote:
“why would you think it’s hard for someone to discern btwn mixed and black? Once again, people in the Caribbean and many other regions of the world do it all the time.”
Can you see how that is similar to a statement like:
“It’s possible to tell a person’s future from their palms. Evidence? Palmists do it all the time.”
HOW are they doing it? Prove that it’s possible.
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@Eco
“So, every human is black? That’s what you implied. Thanks to mitochondrial DNA we know that all people share ancestors and we do know that these ancestors were black.”
-I’m talking about recent ancestors Eco. You know, the ones that split off and formed the varying physically expressive traits based on their respective geographical environments that we use to categorize modern races like white, black, Asian, etc.
Idk why you’re playing dumb. You have a general concept of what black is. If you didn’t it would be literally IMPOSSIBLE for you to participate in in this conversation or many other topics on this blog. You wouldn’t be able to say ANYBODY is black, white, or whatever.
The only problem is that you are trying to tell me that you can take this general concept of “black” and go the extreme by including anyone who has half or more of their ancestry from a group that fits outside of everybody’s(including your) concept of the black race.
And no, I am not setting up neat little categorizations of what “black” is. Saying your race is determined by…
1)Where you the majority of your ancestors are from(primary definition)
2)What you look like(secondary definition)
… is actually a pretty broad definition which includes all types of different looks and ancestries.
If the majority of your ancestors are not of Sub-Saharan African descent, then you are not black. It IS as simple as that.
p.s. If you really want to get technical, most of our ancestors aren’t even human.
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I find this entire topic very bizarre, quite how i wound up here i have no idea to be frank.
Either way possibly because I am from the UK I find this entire debate rather odd, Beauty is an individual taste, I should know, i have gone out with some odd looking women! Also try and suggest that this is in some way a racially motivated bias seems rather simplistic to me. Any list of this sort would probably be compiled by a reader base, and would focus on people in the public eye, so in countries where the reader base is more white and the number of black people in the public eye are smaller than the number of white people it seems pretty obvious that you will get some sort of bias. If i put three black marbles in a bag with seven white ones and asked people to pick out one blind would that be a sound basis for assuming that people prefer white marbles? Would it bollocks.
Frankly even the concept of dividing people into black and white seems terribly outmoded, as the this “one drop rule” no idea what thats about but is sounds like more regressive rubbish to me.
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I don’t know where to draw the lines, but certainly no one who has a fully non-black parent (i.e. white or Asian) or who can reasonably demonstrate that they are over 50% non-black genetically has an obligation to identify as ethnically black (though they can if they want to).
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I find it really weird that people who are anti-racists spend all this time and energy trying to figure out who is what race and how to define ones race. Biologically there is just one race, human race and yes, biologically we are all africans. And yet, here we are, 2011, still debating who is black and who is white and who is this or that.
I know it is a hot subject in the States but it really shows how backward that country is when we talk about race relationships. Sometimes, no matter how much I love that country and the people, USA looks like a living out door museum of thoughts and ideas. Creationism still lives well over there, so no wonder this then too.
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i think all black women and wishing i could find a good one but i may be over the hill for some of them. but they just dont know what they are missing
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missed a little as i was saying i love all black women. but had one to break myh heart. but i am still lookng. the black wonem i know are better in bed better cooks and know how to please a man i am looking for one now but they might think i am ovr the hill at age 70 but do they have a big surprize thanks. me
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There is a much of sense in what a lot of you guys are saying here.
Why does ‘race’ matter so much? Answer – it just does but in different ways and for different reasons for each individual. Should it define us as people? No. She it be all consuming? Never. But again it can and sometimes is to different people.
Years ago I attended a parents evening at my sons school. A man abruptly came up to me and asked me 2 questions on his list of 3 – what age my child was and whether my child was a boy or a girl. He then checked the third column and went off. I asked him what the third column was about and immediately not only did he look uncomfortable but he became defensive saying ‘its nothing for you to concern yourself about, its purely statistical information’. I responded by saying that as I had been kind enough to answer his questions I would appreciate knowing what statistics I was contributing to and how this information would be used.
It turned out that this third column was a racial statistic and when I glanced at his clipboard I saw that he had put me as Black African. I asked him why he had put that to which he responded ‘it doesnt make any difference’ to which I stated, maybe not to you but to me it does. We exchanged words where I insisted he take my information off as I did not want to contribute to any statistics where the statistician was not concerned with the facts and didnt have the decency to check things first.
What I am saying here is that this guy man an assumption, an incorrect assumption based on what seems to be his limited knowledge of race. He saw a black face and that was that and this was sufficient for him to ‘complete’ his form. Thats as much as it mattered to him. To me, it was a question of not being lumped into a category by someone who obviously disrespectful of who I am.
2 different modes of thought here and 2 different reasons why ‘race’ mattered in this particular place at that particular time.
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Well, suppose we have a “black” US-woman (suppose for the sake of arguement that she has traced her origin back to the slaveships, no “white” ancestry), she falls in love, marries and has a child with a “white” Dutch guy (all of his ancestors since his greatgreatgrandparents have been born in the European part of the kingdom), they are sending their child to a completely White School, happily accepting their child. Is the school still completely WHITE with their new student? If it is one in the Netherlands, certainly, both parents have ancestry long established in WHITE countries, that’s all that matters…
I guess that a school in the US would have other ideas about that…
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@ Teddy
What you are saying is that the Dutch would consider all U.S. Blacks to be White, because they are a minority within a White majority culture. That perception seems to be a bit counterintuitive.
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All U.S.-Blacks? I’m not sure about Obama, for starters…
Mind you, this is just about Dutch schools. I just posted it as an example that definitions of “Black” and “White” can differ a whole lot. But in this issue, the politically most importantant Black-White issue, a child is classified by the origin of the family (the ones who may still be alive) rather than by a difference in pigmentation or hair structure.
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Well, I do agree with you that definitions of “Black” and “White” do differ quite a bit depending on place and time.
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WHERE IS AMERIE? SHES THE EPITOME OF SEXY.
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This list may be accurate due to the internet search, but is also misleading to a certain degree. Many beautiful darker skinned women are not household names because they are not promoted and marketed to the mainstream. Therefore, many whites don’t know who they are, and therefore they will not be on these type of lists that are made by white people. I have seen white people acknowledging the beauty of obviously black women, but they will not promote it. There’s nothing wrong with that, simply because I expect whites to promote whites as I expect blacks to promote blacks.
The most beautiful black celebrity women to me are those of the past such as Jayne Kennedy, Pam Grier, Phylicia Rashad, Dorothy Dandridge, Cicely Tyson. The ones today don’t cut it.
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it’s interesting that the title includes “according to white people”. i would argue that it could be a list according to ALL (white, mixed, asian, First Peoples, latino, etc.).
more importantly, have you thought out how this list is any different (if different at all) to “according to black people”? perhaps serena williams might make the list, due to the beauty of her backside, but how else would it be different?
i think it would probably be the same. which is even more interesting due to how it would expose the effects of the light-skinned beauty standards on blacks, also.
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A lot of these comments are the same old thing over and over again! I see the same comments on other places around the web. Oh, it’s a the one-drop rule, they look more white, would love to see afros, etc.
If you don’t like what they see, then CREATE YOUR OWN WEBSITE! Good Lord! The only way that you can showcase what you say you owuld like to see, then stop writing, “well, they didn’t want to list what I would like to see.” This is not an AUTHORITY website and no different than what you could build yourself! And you can name it anything you want and write about anything.
I can’t believe that in this day and age there are so many black people who can read and write, and upload text to a blog on the Internet or have a facebook account to upload pics, who are still sitting around and not building their own websites online!
I hate black mentality sometimes. Yeah, you are so educated and you know the why’s and why nots but you still sit around not doing a damn thing to take self responsibility to record how YOU VIEW THE WORLD. A white person doesn’t have to see or like or promote what you feel is important! So do it your own doggone self!
Kenya!
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The most beautiful women in the world are black (AA) women. They come in a large variety from light to dark chocolate. For me color doesn’t matter they are all hot.
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Beyonce’s not mixed? That seems unlikely; being that her mothers creole and looks it than factor in her father being african-american…….I wouldn’t be surprised if she’s 3/10ths white.
I’m not totally sure if we can say that just because someone’s mostly white and kind of look it they are “white”, think of the bias that the irish, italians and jews have put up with throughout the years. Not as much as the black people but they aren’t completely main stream either.
When it comes to mix race people; why assume the reason people are attracted is because they look like one or the other, why not because they look like both?
As for whether they count as black, white etc…..usually they are given a pass of sorts if there is just one of them but once they get large enough they get thought of as their own distinct ethnic group ala Mexicans or Brazillians. Though thats usually only if they aren’t “blatantly” mixed or if they don’t end up looking different instead of one or the other.
As for JLO being seen as white; I could see that when she was younger, hair was darker and not straightened but back then she was pretty pale skin.
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Based on the definition of mixed where she does not have one White parent.
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I’m white and probably a bit racist… I don’t even believe in race as a valid construction. But I still like the more stereotypical west african and central african women So no surprise… I don’t really like the women on the list.
Here is my alternative list:
1. Wakeema Hollis
2. Teiko Dornor
3. Lauren Hill
4. Leomie Anderson
5. Spice (the dancehall artist)
6. Serena Williams
7. Norma Sante (Surinamese artist)
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am moris 4rm uganda you guys you are woooowwwwwwwwwww i have really appreciated thanx
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You people act like we white men control our sexual and emotional preference in women? For white men the standard of beauty happens to be the women above, if you do not fall into that category, why are white men to blame? Stop blaming us over all your insecurities! Its really annoying how we get blamed for even the smallest things. I am attracted to “white” features and until now I have never even considered them “white”, if your skin is black and you have these features you will be just as attrative as a white-skinned version of you.
If you really want to see women of your preference on a list, then find a demograph that prefers these women and interview them! Dont force you opinion of beauty on us, afterall this entire interview is subjective and based of white male preferences, it even says this in the title. Why the hell should it be the worlds preference? Nothing implies that white male preferences are the standard, you just make yourself believe it is because your focus is not on who YOU are, but on what WE thiink you are.
Perhaps this is the fundemental difference in the mental state of people, “white” people tend to determine their value from within themselves, whilst “black” people tend to determine their value by public opinion.
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How in the hell? Most of these women are white… if they hadn’t been on this list I wouldn’t of thought they had any black roots at all!
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This question is being asked by many , considering we are able to trace our line all the was back to when our ancestors was brutally tortured and raped, how is it that those that are Mulatto, ( a person who has one black parent and one white parent) Quadroon, (a person who has one black grandparent; child of a mulatto and a white) Octoroon, (a person who has one black great-grandparent; child of a quadroon and a white) why are they treated with more respect and consideration,then those of us that retained our dark skin. why are we not given the same respect as those with skin that are light and very close to white( Respect is a way of treating or thinking about something or someone e.g. If you respect a people, you admire them and treat them well. ) It’s a historical fact that dark skin people are not given the same consideration , understanding the above information who says their African American and not European American. Who decides ???
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I agree with you, Emmanuel Africa, 100% I agree that Halle Berry is gorgeous and that she deserves to top the list but I don’t think Mariah Carey, Tyra Banks or Beyonce should be on this list.I don’t find Tyra to be attractive, sorry but she was very pretty back then. I feel the same way about Mariah until I saw her recently after she lost the baby weight. She looks great! I don’t think Beyonce is all that or that pretty but a overrated beauty. Don’t get me wrong, I love Beyonce and I love to listen to her music but she just isn’t the definition of Black beauty. To me, Kerry Washington, Sanaa Lathan and Gabrielle Union are better definitions of Black beauty. And I agree with the list on Iman, Angela Bassett, Vanessa Williams, Thandie Newton and Alicia Keys because they are beautiful women! Especially Angela Bassett and Alicia Keys! And of course have you noticed that most of the ”Black beauties” are either half White or have White blood in them. No White person would vote for a naturally kinky head girl with beautiful brown eyes and her natural features in tact. Even if the girl is beautiful like me! And we should stop measuring beautiful Black women by how beautiful they are according to Eurocentric standards because honey, duplicating your features to look more Eurocentric is not staying true to your ethnic roots. Yes, we all are beautiful, us Black women and I am glad that Abagond thinks that!
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I have to share this with everyone: At work (a Word Processing center of about 70 typists and proofreaders) Peter, another actor new to NY, with his Brad Pitt resemblances, my co-worker from France, gave me a compliment when I offered to share dinner bought from home with him. He was working a double shift. It was 3 a.m. and he was quite hungry. Peter said to me with his thick French accent, “You work. You keep house. You cook. You are wife, mother and friend. You are Woman.” “Thank you Peter”, I said, thinking it was nice to have someone recognize my limited talents. “You are kind.” Then there was the little voice near Peter’s desk saying softly to Peter. “But she’s Black.” [Shock. As soft as that voice was, everyone heard it.] Peter smiled, looked at me (a light skin AA woman), got up, stood next to me and put his arm close to mine comparing our skin tones. He laughed. “She is black, but she is not really ‘black’ woman. Now I will show you black woman,” he said quite sweetly. He he pulled a wallet from his back pocket and flashed a series of pictures of a strikingly beautiful woman, one photo in traditional dress, one in leather pants and turtleneck and then one of the lady in a wedding dress. “Peter, who is this woman?” I asked. Peter blushed, smiled and spoke the way we all wished someone would say our hame. “She is my wife.”
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@RosaMimosa
🙂 Nuff said
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Most of the women on the list are mixed
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Sanaa Lathan is drop-dead gorgeous!!!!
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The only reason these “black” women are considered beautiful is due to having a white ancestor. Where are the stunningly beautiful all-black women if there are any?
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There is no such thing as “stunningly beautiful all-black woman”. Dark skin is masculine property brought out by high levels of melanin and testosterone, and is thus anti-thetical to femininity.
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Dark skin is masculine property brought out by high levels of melanin and testosterone, and is thus anti-thetical to femininity.
Ah, so that means dark skinned BM must be REAL men, interesting point you have made here…
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@Demerera
Exactly. Finally! A black woman (this is an assumption) that finally understands, appreciates, recognizes and loves dark-skinned BM! Hell, I’d ask you out except for, you know…..
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@Satanforce
Is it you that has become reknowned on one of the blogs for your often ‘tongue firmly in cheek’ comments? If this is not the case, I have made an error.
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The black race produces more attractive men than women.
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I think black women should be proud of that. They are the ones who have the babies.
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from above
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Some northern Europeans produce more attractive men than women.
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Ummm…… Noooooo……… Must be some other Satanforce…… 😛 😈
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Well I just can’t believe this. First let me start by saying I AM A SOUTHERN WHITE MALE and I am very attracted to this forums definition of true African beauty but what I am over the top with anger, frustration, and somewhat feelings of hatred with is that of all the comments here not one “black” person has any idea what the hell they are talking about. It sounds to me like people used this as a racist, white-bashing, white-hating release. The last 3 REAL girlfriends I have had have either been of full Afro decent or white/black mixed. All of these women have been wonderful and not one of them sees the same “problems” people are complaining about here. If you wonder why mainstream popularity of beauty looks for white features in any race is because EVERY race has made children with whites and if you hadn’t noticed most ARE better looking 9 times out of 10… Nothing but of bunch of haters.. And another thing for ANY “black”, darkskinned, African-decent, (What to say without offending you is it even possible?) people reading this: SLAVERY ENDED 200 YEARS AGO ASSHOLE stop blaming white males for all of your imperfections. Anything that happens involving a downfall in black society, whites are blamed. Ya know soooo many blacks voted for Obama all I can say is when this country has been changed forever into a country where even a glimmer of freedom is squelched from the air, remember you have no one to blame but yourselves for this one. I can go on and on about the inadequacies and ambiguities left behind from a world that USED to involve the enslaving of a people, but I guess all the right things that whites have done to allow you the privy of freedom will always and forever be null until whites are enslaved and a complete societal reversal has occurred. Stop worrying about white this and that and make it American this and that. Not one of you haters was alive during slavery so JUST GET OVER IT. Anyway this is real talk for the rest of you band-wagon phonies that hate whites for the approval of other black folk. This whole topic sickens me… I’m done.
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@ Darrell
I just have to ask you, what percentage of white people do you think are racist?
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D.’s comments on this post demonstrate that he is a CONDESCENDING, INSULTING, RACIST, ANTI-BW/BP HATER HYPOCRITE.
D. has such an EXALTED opinion of HIMSELF/LOW opinion of BW and BP that, while he claims to have Black girlfriends, he has the nerve to promote ANTI-BW lies, myths, stereotypes such as “BW are ONLY “beautiful” if they’re “PART WHITE” or the RACIST notion that a WM, like him, “KNOWS BETTER than a BP” whether or not ANTI-Black RACISM exists in American culture today.
He’s SO BLIND to the fact that the White privilege that TODAY grants him/ALL WP UNEARNED advantages while punishing BP with UNEARNED disadvantages, orginated from the very slave system that “ended 200 years ago”.
Despite ANTI-BW DENIERS/DISMISSERS,like D., the negative effects of American BW HATE CULTURE are OBVIOUS and can be seen in the MANY ways BW’s humanity/dignity/individuality/femininity are CONSTANTLY being
trashed by EVERYONE in American media/society.
In America ALL men are BRAINWASHED to IGNORE/DISRESPECT BW SOLELY because they’re BW.
MOST American men CHOOSE to go along with the BRAINWASHING but SOME CHOOSE not to (eg. Lovings-American WM/BW couple who helped legalize interracial marriage in the late 50′s/early 60′s).
If it wasn’t for American BW HATE CULTURE/ANTI-BW BRAINWASHING of American men, BW could EXPECT to be treated like NORMAL/HUMAN women.
This ANTI-BW mindset is UNFAIR/WRONG and needs to be challenged/condemned by EVERYONE.
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“i guess that’s to be expected from a white magazine…i wish there was a Black equivalent of Maxim where Black men actually put Black looking women on the cover”
This is the core of the article. It also shows how hypocritical black bigots can be.
They want black people to celebrate blackness but white people are wrong, racist, oppressive to…celebrate whiteness. Most people date/marry within their own ethnic group in this country. Why would it be any different with attraction?
I’d also contend whether or not Maxim has much pull with young men. I don’t read it and I didn’t see it in the dorms or frat houses when I was in college. I DID see it the barracks when I was in the military in the early part of the last decade, but it wasn’t the only kind. Most women appear on the cover of those magazines because their P.R. folks get them on the cover. More than half the time these models/actresses are unknown until they are on the cover.
There are other ways to tell what men find attractive…
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on Tue 10 Jan 2012 at 16:20:09 Satanforce
The only reason these “black” women are considered beautiful is due to having a white ancestor. Where are the stunningly beautiful all-black women if there are any?
There is no such thing as “stunningly beautiful all-black woman”. Dark skin is masculine property brought out by high levels of melanin and testosterone, and is thus anti-thetical to femininity.
LOL I notice a lot of this weird black MALE supremacist b.s. that creeps up. Usually when black bigots want to justify why they are dating ww or when they go easier on ww than wm.
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Bulanik
Feel better now, Annoyed?
Of course I feel better. It’s Friday evening and I’m home from work.
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When will racism stop? And when will Whites and Blacks ever get along in America and worldwide without blaming each other and other people for their faults?I don’t know when that day would come. And I would have a day when Black women, non mixed, are celebrated for their beauty.
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Really? No one darker? Is that the best they can do? Alright. It’s a pity. They should give us a poll for what white people will think are the most beautiful. It wouldn’t just be blonde celebrities and girls with boobs. Ugh!
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I always find it interesting that when Diana Ross or the Chaka Khan or Lauren Hills were in vogue, no one thought it was racist that they were dark skinned. Also find it interesting that no one think it’s racist to prefer dark skin Black men over the light skin one.
Last time I’ve checked light skinned men weren’t appreciated as the dark skin one or worst the ghetto kind one.
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wow.. i like the article. I’ll add it to my list now. Thanks for sharing ! 🙂
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Most of these black women are mixed except for Tyra Banks and Beyonce Knowles. As you know Creole is a nationality and not a race. Beyonce Is a black woman with some french hertiage (many get confused and think creole is a racial background). I wonder why these women are beautiful according to whites? Maybe because none of them are very dark and most of them are mixed? Whites are racist to a degree and still are. You have to have the “white standard” of beauty to be accepted or considered remotely attractive.
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I left out a few others are aren’t mixed. But I hope my point is clear in my above post
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To annoyed white…beauty is in the eye of the beholder and here is my definition of beauty, yes unadulterated black beauty…I like the rich dark colour of black women. Since you asked for examples of non-mixed black beauties, check this video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_nEHq0z_BY .
Have a good day!
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just so every one understands the one drop rule, if you are born with but one ounce of black or colored blood in you , you are black, colored or african american period. while it is a wonderful thing to see so many black beautiful woman, the one thing that stands out to me is that they are all children of multi-racial parents which according to racial definition they are colored not black or white , of mixed heritage, in essense the philosophy of modern day racist’s is to promote such interacial unions to eradicate the black race especially the male from existence. Even today the white anglo saxon is still very much intimidated by the african american male with some justification While I will not use this forum to go into explicit detail there is hope by many within the white community who hope that one day there will be no african american men, only coloreds.
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Blacks make a way bigger deal about being light-skinned. But part of the reason white Americans do not make such a big deal is because to them black is black.
Agreed about Americans being way too racist for their own good.
@ Agabond, no whites make a bigger deal and tend to give preferential treatment to partially white or half-white blacks. Thats has been throughout history with the elevation of status through class given to mulattoes , this has ocurred anywhere white colonialism has taken place. Also, this is why the so-called “hispanic” is given a higher position in the racial “heirarchy” over blacks and the hispanic female, i.e. Jennifer Lopez is foisted into blacks as some ideal of beauty. The brainwashed fall for it.Also most so-called “black” actresses and models are mixed-race and many of these women who are idealised by blacks as a physical ideal don’t even consider themselves to be “Black” like Rosario Dawson and Thandie newton has made some comments separating or distinguishing herself from regualar or american blacks..
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And I see this list does not have Megan Good on it who happens to be a paragon of African-American beauty.No Gabrielle Union? How about Serena Williams? Or Kerry Washington? And I thought whites had changed the “one-drop rule” to any mixed-race blacks or bi-racial blacks not being black? lol. Whites don’t now what bi-racial blacks ARE just know they aren’t BLACK. This is what happens when u allow whites to dabble in ethnology. A whole lot of stupidity..
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Unique
Oh please! These women are on the list because they are beautiful. Some blacks are never satisfied and this is coming from a black woman.
I get so sick of people especially black women complaining about lighter skin women. The last time I’ve checked they were black too. God didn’t make every black person dark or to have one common feature. Black women come in all beautiful shades, what do you want Whoopi Goldberg to be listed too?
Mixed women like halle, alicia, and thandie claim the black race. Who are you to tell them what they are and should be. Black women come in all features to be celebrated. Everybody don’t have to look like Alex Wek and don’t act like she should’ve been on that list.
I also get sick of blacks that have an inferiority complex toward whites. None of these women listed look nothing like white women. God didn’t insisted for straight hair, light eyes and light skin to be put on white women. Naturally women with darker colored eyes and darker skin are beautiful too. You people act like what white people says is the god right truth.
If you don’t like that list make your own, but these obviously beautiful black women that’s listed should be included.
@ Unique, it’s not that serious.. I guess in relation to ur very comments about Whoopi,”What do u want Whoopi to be listed to” U r as brainwashed as they come. When lighter-skinned women are elevated , by whites, as ideals or paragons of Black beauty, there is a problem.Most of the women on this list of the most beautiful black women are of mixed-race.So black women cannot even be touted as paragons of physical beauty on lists allegedly designed to celebrate their beauty, right? How stupid is that? Thandie Newton? Her loos are average and if u queried any black person about who the most beautiful black women in the world are her name would not come up at all..Mariah Carey? This is a woman who has admitted that she ain’t white but she sure as hell ain’t copping to being black! Alicia Keys is enoying her elevated status as a paragon of black beauty but I can assure u she is not she is siply benefitting from a status bestowed upon her by brain-washed black negroes like urself. Angela bassett is indeed a paragon of black female beauty and i will give a few points to Halle Berry even though she has gone under the knife to attain these looks that are so loved by both blacks and whites. And Alicia Keys beauty isn’t natural either. She had rhinoplasty to achieve a more patrician looking nose.
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Alicia Keys, Amerie and before and after rhinoplasty..
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSSz_rrtR6ukYQkEZHPrFq7d6_21dIne5bkjEyklgK-fh1wz_Pa6NbPtyqy7A
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Everyone is here running off at the mouth,but no one had a comment for “ADAM”.@Adam,you are not stealing black women,they are running off with all the white guys!
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It really doesn’t matter what shade black women are these days.None of them love,support,date,or marry black men any more!!
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Thandie newton,just like Halle Berry,is nothing but a half breed who loves white guys.Tell me,What black man have you known of Thandie dating??She came to Amerikkka and was called a ni@@er crumbled up and jumped on the white man’s band wagon among other thing.I don’t date whites or half breeds!
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All of these Negro women have Caucasian blood; period.
To me, there is no such thing as a beautiful Negro woman; they are all very ugly. I don’t know whether or not it will be in my life time or not but I wish that one day everyone in the world would wake up from the brainwashing that has taken place over the last 45 years and realize that Negros are not the same species as Caucasians; end of story.
Some people REFUSE to accept this UNDENIABLE truth no matter what scientific proof you show them; they are SHOT mentally and PERMANENTLY BRAINWASHED.
This is a sorry excuse for a world; but sorry folks the White Race is the most superior race that has ever walked the face of the earth; sure we have our share of scum but if you look at the big picture, our scum has still done more then the best of the Negros.
The only thing Negros can do is sing, dance, and play sports; and even then a good bit of THEM have white ancestry.
Just the fact that u had to say that, makes u a dumbass, like u really need to believe that..lol. U have low self esteem like most of ur race.
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I find it interesting that Blacks are so confuse about “tanning”, or the so call injected “big lips” that White folks pay for. Tanning isn’t about being Black or else they would tan a la Alex Wek, or would want their hair to look like “pubic hair/kinky” like pure Blacks. Full lips isn’t the same as protruding big lips.
Blacks are so confuse. Dark skin to a White/Asians isn’t the same as Dark skin to a Black.
Tanning= olive skin toned (like some Italians or Spaniard), not the Sudan skin tone.
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Maybe you are ‘confuse’.
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Just wondering if there is a list of the most beautiful white women according to black people (maybe Africans vs. black people in the West).
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Come on black folks. Don’t believe the hype. You should take careful note of reality vs what the televisions and magazines project.
If you pay careful attention, you’ll find the rare occassion when white men go interracial, they tend to choose the darkest most attractive sisters. I’ve seen this over and over again in all parts of the world. Wherever you find black folks, you find racially mixed folks. Period.
In the US, you’ll notice that almost all African-Americans have some white ancestry, despite it being socially frowned upon and illegal in many parts of the country until fairly recently. The very fact that whites are willing to deal with social rejection to be with a black person is a real testament. Moreover, if black people weren’t insanely attractive, why did they need to pass laws against interracial marriages in the US? If white women are more attractive, then there would be no need for such laws.
Years ago, I read an interview with a “reformed” white, male supremacist. When asked why he joined the movement, he had difficulty answering the question. He finally broke down and cried. He said he became very depressed and then angry after he was rejected by a black women that he had an unhealthy infatuation with. He claims joining a white supremacist movement helped him create an outlet for his rage against something he couldn’t have. Why he felt it was his god given right to have any black woman of his choice shows the extent of white privilege in this society.
Black women are the ideal homosapiens in their body structure, color, facial features and femininity. ALL heterosexual have built in brain circuitry to chose women based on the female-hip-to-hip ratio. Countless scientific studies have shown that African women have the ideal female-to-hip ratio. In order to keep the racial order, white society has tried to devalue the female-to-hip ratio with some severe consequences that has backfired on them.
White women all over the world are artificially elevated over non-white women. No matter how beuitiful they may appear, take off the makeup, butt pads and you’ll see a hideous woman who is masculine in appearance. Most of the makeup, leg shavings and corsets are merely prostethics to give them what black women are naturally endowed with.
White women lose all their curves, if they have any, when they gain any amount of weight or reach a certain age. This is why white men like them thin and young (looking more like young boys). Consequently, this has created an unhealthy psychosexual complex that turns in to pedophilia among other vile sexual leanings. The bulimia and anxorexia and the negative self-images in white women are very real.
Finally, an important part of the “pure” white narrative is that in order to be a true white person, you must be asexual. Homosexuality is preferred over promiscuous heterosexuality. Heterosexual urges are to be repressed because true white men are to be stoics and in control at all times. This helps create a counter definition to the hypersexual, emotional black race. Whites can’t define who they are, but can only define who they are not. Pretty pathetic if you ask me.
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I am white and Hispanic and I have friends that are white and some that are Hispanic. This might surprise some, but most of them find black women attractive and even more so those of us that find black women attractive would rather date and marry a darker toned woman than a lighter one. Usually if we find so called black features attractive then we don’t want white partners or women with white features in the first place.
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Lists shouldn’t determine how you feel about yourself or anyone. Just be above the negativity. If you believe you are beautiful you are. God took time to make each of us in a different way. If people can’t embrace you as is they aren’t behaving very Godly and you need to not worry about them. ~God’s child~ http://pinterest.com/ladysjw/brown-skinned-beauty-tips-fashion/
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This list totally sucks, you’re forgetting all those beautiful ladies of Doo Wop from the 50’s and early 60’s. Those were the really truly beautiful women in history. I wish I could somehow travel back to those days and get me a beautiful African American girlfriend. 😀 All these broads nowadays are nothing but plastic and photoshop. LAME!
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Reblogged this on Zion Is Rising and commented:
A little something for my ethnic and non-ethnic followers! Lets talk about beauty and individualism today. Lets be real, it’s hot to look white! It’s almost even more hot to look kinda ethnic, but still rocking this european look! The weave vs natural vs perm post is saved for another day but still, lets state the obvious… I know this may not be political or hard hitting…but it’s real to me. As always, comments and posts very welcome.
Love x
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I am an english speaking white man who Loves black wemon. Actually I am far more attracted to black wemon than any other race of wemon. I dont know if this theory regarding what main stream entertainment considers “beautiful” is totaly skewed, or if I am just so compleatly out of touch with the taste of magazines and television, but I can think of many far more beautiful black wemon than most of those on this list.
I actually find miss/Mrs. Abagond more attractive than some of the wemon on this list. Any way…thank God for gorgeous black wemon.
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Robert the lady in the banner is a model and Abagond, the owner of the blog is a man.
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There are so many beautiful women in the world, it is a shame that people only set one standard. This is really affecting young innocent children around the world. Hopefully with work and effort, people become willing to fight these sterotypes. Visit:
http://www.redefiningthefaceofbeauty.com/2012/10/beautiful-people.html
and
http://www.redefiningthefaceofbeauty.com/2012/09/the-best-photos-of-diversity.html
We don’t want to change the standard of beauty, just expand the forgotten.
Thanks for the share!
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@ Peanut
It is that masthead picture that does it. I thought it would be clear that it is a professional picture of a model, not some Instagram snapshot of me!
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What’s interesting about all of the comments on this thread is how people view being “mixed race.” According to this tread (and society-at-large for that matter) is sounds like many Black people don’t consider “mixed people” Black because they are part White — and — White people don’t consider “mixed people” White because they are part Black.
No one wants to claim mixed people? Aren’t these the same mixed people that both races tout as the most beautiful (more times than not). Does this hate stem from mixed people having the best (features) of both races? Most Ms. Universe beauty queens are Latinas (aka mixed women) by far (particularly from Puerto Rico and Venezuela).
Its so crazy that a large segment of the Blacks will only claim a woman as being Black if she falls within the darker shades. Many African American women do not accept Black Latinas as “Black” simply because they speak Spanish and are mixed with Spaniard.
White folks aren’t accepting Latinas either unless they can “pass” for White. Most White Latinas come from countries where Whites (mainly Spaniards and Germans) exterminated the indigenous population (e.g.: Argentina, Uruguay, and Chile). Solely based on looks, one cannot tell that those people are Latinos. The blogger of this post mentioned that White people don’t see shades. To them “black is black”. So at the end of the day it doesn’t really matter where you come from as long as you can pass for White.
Many mixed race women (because society’s standards of beauty) get “used” by men of both races. They are hypersexualized and objectified then discarded because black men are told that marrying with a lighter woman (mixed or white) is a disgrace, and white men are told that marrying with anyone not straight white-looking is taboo.
Caught in the middle of the Black/White paradigm (aka “drama”) what is a mixed woman to do? Seems like she is vilified either way you slice it. I understand the plight of the African American woman and would never discount it. It is difficult to live in the U.S. as an AA woman — But mixed women have it hard too. Please remember that White people don’t see shades, only Black/White extremities. Therefore, conventional beauty standards aside, mixed women aren’t being handed any more respect in the grand scheme of things. At the end of the day compliments and acknowledgement about ones looks (that will eventually fade) mean very little if no respect is paid for anything else or offered partnership/marriage. In this case, it can leave the woman feeling pretty empty.
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@ Different: Many mixed people themselves have encouraged this distinction. Historically, mixed people were always considered Black (see the ‘one drop rule’) but in the age of more liberal racial policy many have asked why mixed people should be forced to choose just one side of their ethnic identity or the other. However in practice, my experience is that most mixed-race people still consider themselves to be Black and are widely accepted as Black – see Barack Obama.
No one wants to claim mixed people? Aren’t these the same mixed people that both races tout as the most beautiful (more times than not). Does this hate stem from mixed people having the best (features) of both races? Most Ms. Universe beauty queens are Latinas (aka mixed women) by far (particularly from Puerto Rico and Venezuela).”
People who believe that mixed people are somehow more beautiful than single race people are racists. There are just as many ugly mixed people as ugly anybodys. The majority of people look average. The majority of mixed people look average.
Beautiful women of every shade and hue get “used” by unscrupulous men and many kinds of women have been hyper-sexualized: The Asian temptress, the hot-blooded Latina, the uninhibited Black woman.
I understand that everyone has their own experience, and as a mixed woman, you will have a certain perspective based on your experience. But the fact that mixed women may have some specific challenges does not mean that those challenges are any more daunting than the challenges that many other groups face.
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@ Different: Many mixed people themselves have encouraged this distinction. Historically, mixed people were always considered Black (see the ‘one drop rule’) but in the age of more liberal racial policy many have asked why mixed people should be forced to choose just one side of their ethnic identity or the other. However in practice, my experience is that most mixed-race people still consider themselves to be Black and are widely accepted as Black – see Barack Obama.
People who believe that mixed people are somehow more beautiful than single race people are racists. There are just as many ugly mixed people as ugly anybodys. The majority of people look average. The majority of mixed people look average.
Beautiful women of every shade and hue get “used” by unscrupulous men and many kinds of women have been hyper-sexualized: The Asian temptress, the hot-blooded Latina, the uninhibited Black woman.
I understand that everyone has their own experience, and as a mixed woman, you will have a certain perspective based on your experience. But the fact that mixed women may have some specific challenges does not mean that those challenges are any more daunting than the challenges that many other groups face.
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“Many mixed people themselves have encouraged this distinction. Historically, mixed people were always considered Black (see the ‘one drop rule’) but in the age of more liberal racial policy many have asked why mixed people should be forced to choose just one side of their ethnic identity or the other. However in practice, my experience is that most mixed-race people still consider themselves to be Black and are widely accepted as Black – see Barack Obama.”
@King
Barack Obama isn’t a perfect example because society views mixed women and mixed men differently. If a mixed man is powerful and successful, the Black community usually claims this person without hesitation. But when it comes to mixed women, the Black community usually does not claim them because their supposed beauty is perceived (by many) to grant them an unfair societal advantage (this view is mostly maintained by women). There is a double standard. In addition, Latinos who consider themselves to be black are not widely accepted by the Black community. They are accepted as being Black in the Northeast (NY, Philly, and DC), but in the south and midwest its a very different story. Again, only those Latinos with the darkest skin are acknowledge as being Black, while those with lighter brown complexions are left in limbo.
“People who believe that mixed people are somehow more beautiful than single race people are racists. There are just as many ugly mixed people as ugly anybodys. The majority of people look average. The majority of mixed people look average.”
@King
The fact that you think the majority of mixed people look average is your personal opinion. Not everyone agrees with your opinion. Of course there are beautiful people of all races, shapes, and colors. No denying that. But when we talk about the construction of the white beauty standard, a large number of women who end up on their many lists are of mixed race. Whether we agree with their assessment is a whole other conversation. If someone thinks that mixed people are somehow more beautiful, this doesn’t automatically mean they are racist. That is flawed logic. Someone can have an appreciation for both races and view it as a perfect blend without marginalizing any one race. That is not a racist view. However, for those who believe that mixed people are more beautiful because their valued physical features are inherited from only one race — then yes this is a racist view.
“I understand that everyone has their own experience, and as a mixed woman, you will have a certain perspective based on your experience. But the fact that mixed women may have some specific challenges does not mean that those challenges are any more daunting than the challenges that many other groups face.”
@King
You may want to read my post. I openly acknowledge that all Black women face challenges and I don’t claim that one is any more daunting than the other. What I did say is that mixed women face challenges “as well”. Contrary to popular belief, mixed women don’t have it any easier than non-mixed women because white people do not acknowledge lightness/darkness. The fact the mixed women are part White makes some White men feel that they are more entitled to mixed women while not feeling obligated to commit to them because of their inherited blackness. Black Latinas deal with this dynamic everyday. Your definitely putting words into my post that were never written. My post did not devalue or prioritize any one group’s experience. I did not write such nonsense. What it did do was offer a different perspective, a perspective of a mixed person who very clearly acknowledge how difficult it is to be a single race black woman in the U.S. If you continue to believe that this is what I wrote, then you may want to evaluate your own personal views that your projecting onto my post.
The fact that a mixed person’s perspective is minimized, and compared to Asians or other groups that we are not discussing here is racist in and of itself. What this implies is that the mixed person’s view is marginalized and thrown into a “disqualification” bucket. We have a lot of single raced people on this thread, Blacks and Whites alike, speaking for Mixed people. What is so difficult about letting mixed people speak for themselves? This is another problem Mixed people face everyday. They are many times excluded from participating in an active conversations about race relations — and when they are their opinions and views are discounted. Just like you have done here.
Please do not assume that ALL mixed people do not want to choose an either or race. There are some people who feel this way, and there are plenty who do not. Frankly, people who don’t want to choose are living in a fantasy world because at the end of the day single race people make the choice for them. Please believe me when I say that as a brown skinned Latina no one is mistaking me for a white woman and the way I am treated my single race people is a daily reminder. We don’t have to make a choice because non-latino blacks and whites make that choice for us without considering our input on the matter. Young Latinos are more aware of these dynamics and are empowered to self-identifying more these days, regardless to how single raced people view them.
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Well Different, let me start by saying that I tend to try and remind myself that people do come from different perspectives and experiences. For example, you might have grown up having a lot of issues being accepted. Another Mixed person’s experience may have have been that they fit right in. So, I don’t want to discount what your experience was or is. I may challenge you, as to what degree it can be used to define the broader cultural narrative, but while still accepting that you are simply relating your own history and observations.
Yes, I notice that too. My observation is that if a B/W Mixed person sees themselves as Black, they are usually accepted by most people as being Black. However, if a Mixed person does not see themselves as Black then they are usually designated as “Mixed.” So Mixed people can be Black, but never White.
As for what I said about Mixed racism, I can explain it further. You are, of course free to disagree, but I think you will see the logic.
To my mind a statement that says Mixed people are on average more beautiful than non-mixed people falls into a kind of racism. Compare statements,
– White people are the most beautiful people in the word. Racist or not?
– Black people are the most beautiful people in the word. Racist or not?
– Mixed people are the most beautiful people in the word. Racist or not?
They are all beliefs that beauty is based on race or a combinations of races. None of these statements can be proven, they are all subjective and therefore illogical. The word “average” is used to mean “typical” or what most people look like. In fact beautiful people are always judged to be above average in appearance. Therefore, in any group most of the people look average by definition. Now, I suppose you could argue that the average for mixed people is higher on the aesthetic index than with other groups, but that would be a meaningless statement when applied to a subjective measurement.
And then which “Mixed” are we talking about as being the most beautiful?
Black/Asian?
White/Asian?
Black/White?
Then you have to consider that almost EVERYONE is ‘mixed’ to some degree, so if it come down to it, what is defined as “Mixed” varies from person to person. “Mixedness” is a rather complicated idea, and people certainly react to it in different ways.
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@King:
So, you as a single raced person can speak for all the other mixed race people out there in the world. Even when a mixed race person, like myself, shares his/her perspective you actively seek to invalidate it and promote your own views — again, as a single raced person. Feel insecure much?
Yup, this racism at its finest. Multiracial people deal with people like you everyday trying to speak for us as a group, yet you will never know or truly understand what its like to be in our shoes. Especially those who are mixed and also members of the Latino culture and also female — which is one aspect/perspective I attempted to share because given all of the comments, it had yet to come up on the thread.
Given some of your previous comments and the fact that you call yourself “King”, I’ve assumed that you are a single raced man. That could be an incorrect assumption on my part, but I highly doubt it.
Please enjoy being the single race male spokesperson for all multiracial women. SMH. Have a wonderful day!
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In other words, you didn’t read this paragraph:
I said very clearly that I was not discounting your experience but that other people might have other experiences than yours. That doesn’t sound like I’m speaking for all mixed race people to me, just taking in accounts from a range of opinions. I happen to have a few mixed-race people in my family (cousins) and their experience is different than the one you are describing. I’m saying that BOTH can be true. Different people have different experiences.
I have no idea what you’re talking about when you say that I’m speaking for all mixed-race people.Where do I do that?
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@King
The point is that there is no need to challenge me on my own experience because I’ve always clearly stated that I was sharing a different (one) perspective, that of my own. I never claimed that every mixed person shares the same perspective. You continue to assume that I believe that most mixed people share my experience after I have stated that this is not my belief many times over.
The bottom line is that you are not of mixed race yourself. You are not a woman. You are not of a Latino ethnicity. Given all of these three things combined, neither you or your family members are will never experience what I do. So why would you want to compare them to me? Its apples and oranges.
The reason I call you out on being the spokesperson is because, to your own admission, a few of your relatives are mixed — not you. Therefore, you are out of line to authoritatively challenge anyone who cared to share their own personal experience. It would be a different story if I attributed my experience to the masses, but again, I never did. What your not realizing is that what your doing here form of racism that mixed people do experience. Whenever a mixed person’s opinion about “the role race relations plays in their own life” is sought to be discredited by another who hasn’t walked in their shoes — this is a racist attempt to silence them because in America any discourse about race is dominated by African Americans and Whites.
Actions speak louder than words. Your asking that I consider the words you’ve written but your tone and actions paint a very different, misaligned and ugly narrative.
Anyone with half a neuron would read your responses to my posts and clearly see your negative reaction to my acknowledging that white people tend to rate mixed people, especially those of Latin ethnicities fairly high on their beauty scale. I never mentioned whether or not I agreed with how Whites rate beauty. I simply stated that this is done — nothing more, nothing less. I also used the Miss Universe example because almost all of the judges for that competition are of Anglo descent. You blatantly disagreed, and called most mixed people average looking and went off the handle from there. I acknowledged that this was your opinion, which you have a right to but we would not be having this discussion if everyone agreed with you.
I didn’t create the societal standard, so again, why are you challenging me? Sadly, you exemplify how some black people find it easier to fight with other blacks (mixed or not) about these social scales instead of “challenging” those who impose these standards on all blacks everyday single day. Frankly, your misdirecting your breath and energy. Those who impose sit back laughing at the needless internal racial conflict.
I’m done with you and will not respond anymore to your racist challenges.
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@ Bulanik,
I am still of that opinion, and you have an excellent memory. 🙂
@ Different Perspective
I have not been challenging you on your own experiences. In fact nothing could be farther from the truth. In fact, I have said in almost every post that your experiences are valid.
“I understand that everyone has their own experience, and as a mixed woman, you will have a certain perspective based on your experience.”
I’ll spare you quoting every single time that I said this, but I’ve done so several different ways every time I wrote a reply to you. I’ll say again that I have no quarrel with your personal experiences and never have.
Why do you keep saying this? I have not once said that what you have experienced is not true or is wrong or invalid. I don’t understand where you are getting this from?
Now what I WAS doing was challenging some of the CONCLUSIONS that you have drawn about everybody else, based on your own personal experience, and that is quite different. If you come to a blog that discusses racial issues, you should expect a “discussion” which means that somebody is bound to disagree with at least a few of your conclusions. There is nothing draconian about that—adults disagree all the time. That is not denying your experiences.
The fact is that in forming your conclusions, you make declarative statement about single-race people, even though you are not a single-race person yourself.
I didn’t disagree with you on this statement, but it does assume that your own personal experience can be used to declare how “a large segment of [single-race] Blacks” think. But you have not had personal experiences with a ‘large segment’ of the U.S. Black population have you? What percentage of the Black population have you had personal experiences with? So you are making an assumption, not just stating an experience.
When you say that BOTH races tout mixed-race people as most beautiful because they have the best features of both races, you are not relating a personal experience. You are stating an opinion, and that opinion can be disagreed with no matter the person’s complexion who does the disagreeing.
Again, this is a statement about how White people think. There is a lot of house slave/ field slave history that would indicate that White people do see shades. You are doing a lot of opinionating, not just stating your personal experiences. Are you saying that because you are a mixed-race person talking about how society sees mixed-race people, that your opinions on the subject are sacrosanct?
Besides, the one place where I openly disagreed with you was on your statements about the beauty of mixed race people over other people. Aside from that, I simply stated personal observations of my own. For example, if you say, “Mixed people are not accepted by many Blacks” I might say, “I grew up in a town where mixed race people were well integrated into the Black population” but that is not a disagreement, it’s just two people sharing personal experiences on the same subject, from different sides of the issue.
There is a big difference between disagreeing with a person’s conclusions about what Blacks think and what Whites think and disagreeing with their personal experiences.
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@ Bulanik
I agree with you. Why can’t we ever shake this idea that beauty is somehow tied to something racial? Either it’s one race or the other, or a mixture of races that creates beauty. It’s insane! Beauty comes in so many shapes, sizes, and hues—how can it possibly be racial?
And what are these “best features” anyway? Or more to the point, what are the “worst features” that they are being compared to?
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Along with King’s contextually inaccurate responses, Bulanik hops on the bandwagon with:
“I’ve always feel practically nauseous by the notion that mixed-race individuals are somehow automatically “more beautiful” because they have the ‘best’ features of both races. Such insufferable nonsense! I can’t bear it…this particularly offensive if the mixed-race person is part-black and actually considers themselves ‘prettier’ due to their mixed-ness.”
So now this conversation has digressed from what White people think and their imposed constructed social standards, and is now being manipulated into mixed people considering “themselves” prettier. Now we’re getting to the root of you and King’s problem here!
Bulanik, are you insinuating that if someone is mixed with Black and any other race that it is sickening (in your mind) to appreciate the non-Black and find it beautiful as well? Based on your premise, a women that has the gene SLC24A5 (strong melanin) and COL17A1 (euro facial structure) is suppose to only acknowledge the African trait and cannot fully appreciate ambiguity or any unique look the merge of the two chromosomes might produce? Anyone who thinks in this manner is mentally ill and a menace of society. You believe your trying to “shake” the influence of race on beauty, but your too deep in the weeds to see how your views exacerbate this social problem.
I understand the hurt cause by societal standards. Your pain is justified. But please don’t take your anger out on mixed people who have no control over the preferences, behaviors, and racism of those who impose such standards.
If a mixed raced individual loves his/herself, and embraces their “look” — that individual has every right as anybody else to have a healthy self-esteem and self-confidence. Please don’t not confuse self-love with a sense of superiority. This misunderstanding is usually rooted in envy. When non-mixed people pressure others to adopt their negative views on Multi-raciality and beauty, what is being shared is self-hate. Everyone has a right to love the way they look without regard to the insecurities of onlookers.
King and Bulanik, I am saddened about any internal struggles your dealing with. The fact that both of you are in the same exact forum discussing the same exact issues 18 months later speaks volumes. I pity your self-loathing. Blog trollling isn’t an appropriate substitute for psychotherapy.
Ok, I’m seriously done this time… Haha!
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Others, please excuse my grammatical errors. 🙂
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A digression is a deviation from what was actually said. Bulanik and I have simply pointed out the inconsistency of a racist statement that you made in your very first post, and have continued to champion ever since. There is no “manipulation” at work here, since the objections are based on direct quotes from your post.
But speaking of digression and manipulation. This is what Bulanik said:
and this is your distorted manipulation of what she said, which is nothing short of Orwellian Doublespeak. What you are commenting on is clearly not what Bulanik even said.
Also, you seem to be confused about your genetics – I’m not sure where you’re getting your information from, but this is what you said:
However the reality is, well… somewhat different.
SLC24A5 This gene that you mentioned [Sodium/potassium/calcium exchanger 5] effects skin colour variations by changing the amino acid at position 111 in NCKX5 from alanine to threonine. That is its function. http://www.jbc.org/content/283/9/5486 but the result is not “strong melanin” as you have suggested. See below.
– Wiki
So this gene contributes to lighter skin, not darker skin and higher melanin content.
COL17A1 This second gene that you mentioned as being the gene for “euro facial structure” is [Collagen, type XVII, alpha 1]. It is a transmembrane protein thats main job is maintaining the link between the intracellular and the extracellular structural elements in epidermal adhesion. It basically keeps up the integrity between layers of your skin and prevents epidermal-dermal separation and skin blistering. This has NOTHING to do with European facial structure. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/gene?Db=gene&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=1308
In fact, Europeans do not share a single facial structure, and neither do Africans. There is wide variation in people’s features on both continents. Whoever you are relying on to give you your information is grossly misguiding you and is feeding you nonsense theories.
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So now this conversation has digressed from what White people think and their imposed constructed social standards, and is now being manipulated into mixed people considering “themselves” prettier. Now we’re getting to the root of you and King’s problem here!
Well what whites “think” cannot be readily dismissed since life in a white supremacist world and our value within this world is usually based on how white view and perceive us within that context. When i was growing up I did grow up with mixed-race people that did consider themselves to be more beautiful and better than black people because these were the inherent “messages” they were receiving from society at large. I grew up with mixed-race kids who wouldn’t even speak to black people even though they had a black parent, and this behavior was fully supported by said black parent.
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^ The book, Our Kind of People: Inside America’s Black Upper Class Illustrates some of the intraracial attitudes that deepdkchocolate mentions above. It’s really a fascinating read but gets a little bogged down towards the end.
http://www.amazon.com/Our-Kind-People-Inside-Americas/dp/0060984384
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I mean this behavior goes on today with mixed race children of white women really differentiating between so-called bi-racial children born of white women and so-called bi-racial children born of black women, this is how stupid yet ingrained this mentality is and let us not forget that mulattoes in europe america, the caribbean and africa comprised a class all their own that was separate and deemed superior to the Black race.Many mulattoes of this class owned black slaves..
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elle
The most beautiful black celebrity women to me are those of the past such as Jayne Kennedy, Pam Grier, Phylicia Rashad, Dorothy Dandridge, Cicely Tyson. The ones today don’t cut it.
Sanaa Lathan, Emanuela de Paula( who should be on this list) Kerry Washington,Brandy Norwood, Jennifer Hudson,Gabrielle Union all these black women r exquisite to behold..
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The whole data based on media hype not real facts of preference of white men when there’s question about black women. I’m from Scandinavia and knows pretty well that whole scale of ideal black woman among white men is large, wide. Most of those men dating and marrying black woman have relatively dark or very dark women.
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Things like this are just stupid to me. Seriously they really are. ALL of the women on this list are beautiful women. Grace Jones is an incredibly beautiful woman. Black women in general are beautiful, just because there’s a list doesn’t mean that light-skinned women are more beautiful than dark skinned women or considered more beautiful, this just so happens to be the list drawn up at the time. I find Wesley Snipes attractive as hell, but if I were to list my number one celebrity crush, he wouldn’t be first on the list but it wouldn’t mean he’s ugly to me. So why all of this controversy? If I see a mixed person, I don’t try to say which race they “claim.” I call them mixed, or Mulatto. My grandfather on my father’s side is directly from Africa, and my mother is mixed and very light skinned. When people ask what I am my first response is always “black.” There’s no reason to go in depth and say every individual part unless people are interested and ask. I don’t see why “Black” has to mean more than, “of african descent” whether a large percentage or small. Being light skinned doesn’t make you any less black than the darkest skinned person sitting near you. Both your ancestors came from Africa and for that alone their should be some kind of connection and pride. My mother is very light, downright yellow, and she considers herself BLACK. She practices african religion and customs. Her hair is natural. Even if she didn’t celebrate her roots like that, she would still be a BLACK woman. It’s people who make the skin color an issue that spread racism amongst other black people toward each other. Malcom X was light and you cannot say to anyone that that man wasn’t black and proud of it. Quit being stupid people. My two youngest brothers are mixed with white, and it saddens and angers them when people lesson the value of the black descent in them just because their skin is light. They are born of a black mother and white father. They are mixed. They call themselves black and white. Both of my parents consider themselves black, thus, I am black. When white people (or anyone else see me) they automatically assume that I am black. And I would hate for my mixed son to grow up and constantly have to defend that he is of proud black lineage just because he has light skin.
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And it’s not just mixed race people that do not speak to darker skinned people. I went to a mainly african-american school for a while, after attending a mainly white school for most of my life. It was strange to me to see how many black kids refused to speak to white kids. One black man told me, “I wouldn’t even know what to say to a white person. They’re strange to me.” And a black girl later told me that she didn’t know how to speak to white people. And when a white boy asked her out she threw a fit and said, “why would I want to be with a white boy, as black as I am?” It blew my mind. Ignorance is universal. People need to get over heritage and realize humanity is humanity. I talk to every body and am better than no one but those that refuse to see between lines of color.
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i pick Alicia Keys 😀
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http://jetmag.com/jetbeauty/aniquae-williams-fit-and-focused/
dude…
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I myself am attracted to Pam Grier damn she looked good when she was young. and before she died aaliyah was the most beautiful woman on earth
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And vivica fox
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What? Rhianna not on there they love her
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@ Jos
I compiled this list in 2008. She is way bigger now – she in White American Maxim’s top ten. This is a pretty popular post in terms of traffic, so maybe it is time for a new edition.
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none of these women are “black”.
u meant “The most beautiful mixed-race women according to white people”
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HALLE BERRY IS JUST SO BEAUTIFUL I CANT EVEN EXPLAIN HOW BEAUTIFUL SHE IS
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I HATE ALL OF THE WOMEN THERE ALL UGLY NOT EVEN PRETTY THAN ME
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The chicks who are always listed as the most beautiful are just what huge numbers of folks agree on. I usually don’t care for their choices and find them just average. Why isn’t Naomi Campbell on there? She’s a babe.
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Majority of White in this country feel that Eurocentric features and lighter skin is more attractive than dark skin so of course most of them are going to feel that Halle Berry, Beyoncé, Vanessa Williams etc are beautiful because they are mixed race women not full Black women. Featuring beautiful mixed raced women is an ego stroke to the White American population because it proves to them that a Black woman has to be mixed with something to be seen as beautiful.
And in reality there are many beautiful dark skin Black women who are full black like Gabrielle Union, Naomi Campbell, Nia Long, Meagan Good etc out there.
How come they aren’t showcased on more magazines and TV shows?
Because showing beautiful brown to dark Black women with two Black parents threaten the idea of White supremacy’s thinking that White women are the epitome of beauty. And no the handlers in charge of the media can’t have that so they rarely show beautiful Black women on TV. That way they blind people to the beauty of Black women and disregard Black beauty. And have people think that White women are the most beautiful, when in reality they aren’t/
I am a Black woman of darker complexion and two Black parents and I love my skin.
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Who says white America see’s the woman in the main list as beautiful? They are merely celebrities! I think most white people know there are attractive blacks of both genders but have race hate issues. Who cares what they see as beautiful. If it’s in terms of the media which affects us and our youth plus what overs accept as beautiful, then we have control ourselves.
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Personally i think black women only look good when they are mixed with White, at least one parent is White, or Latin also
I say this because every “black” women ive seen that was down mouth dropping gorgeus always had a white mom or dad, Women Like Alicia Keys, Mya Harrison, Halle Berry, Esther Baxter,Rae Dawn Chong or many other urban models or models have all been half white, this is just women who are mainstream, of course there many more
thats just What i see and feel, I feel those woman look better then All black woman,African women.
and i feel this is probably the feelings of most people, whether they are black, White, Latino or even Asian(i say even asian because in america they are the biggest minority) , but a black person would not admit this because it would be saying that only time black women are beautiful is if they are part of the Enemy(whites)
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If you really want to know if what i am saying is true or not
Just pick 50 “black” women , 25 of them are going to be black women with at least 1 parent that is Non-black(probably white) and then pick 25 women that are just black(2 black parents, could also be 2 Africans, not just america/UK,etc)
Ask 500 Black men and Would put Money that Most men would pick the Mixed Women
I mean that’s just what it is right now
I think if you asked 500 Africans you may get a different answer( Maybe)
But ask 500 Blacks from Amerika and i Guarantee you Most guys would pick the women who have a white or Non-black Parent
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deeNice most white people r jealous of th beauty that is black women so u perpetuate the nonsense above. The most beautiful women in he world r black nd the white gene is improved when black is added to it. That is why u race pursues ours and wishes to access our DNA . Women like Gabrielle union, Dorothy dandridge Lola falana Kerry Washington r beautiful and unmixed ur just jealous.and most black omen do not find white men attractive at ll so ur opinion is meaningless a black woman like myself would laugh in u face if u approached us.
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White people’s opinion about us do not matter. Ur opinion is irrelevant and more of us r awakening to that fact everyday. Funny we. Unattractive bu everything u do mimics us. Please.
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white pwople alway worried about us, get ur own lives u have no jurisdiction here and noone cares what u people think.
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It’s funny only two of these women have both their parents are black. The others have at less one parent that is that is black. So for me they don’t count. That tell me white people that dark women aren’t beautiful and our black men fall for it, keeping up with the Jones. This is just like the BROWN PAPER BAG of test. That is how it started. And this is how it end, if our race don’t stand up and speak out….
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If you think only Europeans aren’t into dark skin women, then I suggest you travel a little bit more. Secondly how come when Black women only prefers dark skin men, no one think there is anything wrong with that.
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wow, she’s hot, the one in sleepy hollow
http://thegrio.com/2013/09/23/sleepy-hollow-star-nicole-beharie-kerry-washington-ripped-open-hole-for-black-actresses/
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Iman Abdulmajid David Bowie Wife a white man and she dark and from Africa excape from Africa at age of 12 because they were going to sew her vagina close Her and David save a lot of little black girls from Black Savages being sew close its very painful the pain stay with you for rest of your life sick f–king Savages, And they still do that there and killing babies because they say its cure AID I DONT FEEL SORRY FOR AFRICA MEN I LIKE TO SEE A BLACK WOMEN PRESIDENT THERE SO THEY CAN GET RID OF THEM SICK SAVAGES. POOR THING HAD TO WALK OUT OF AFRICA AT AGE OF 12 AND WAS RAPE BEFORE SHE MADE IT EUROPE ……Yes a white women save here and a white women made her a model to this day she still scare of black men. And you people get mad at whites for adopting black little girls from Africa and that why they adopted girls from Africa now yall know why they pick African Girls
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Yes white slave master did rape some black women but you got most of your half and half from the Yankees raping black and white women in south during civil war because blacks and french white men were allow to get marry in new Orleans before the civil war then came Yankees, And house maid was big women to do the nursing do you really believe that master wife would let a pretty half and half live in the house learn the damn truth about slavery if you would have gotten beated all the time you couldn’t have worked in cotton fields and they had more slaves up north then they had in south if was about 50 – 50 blacks and whites that had slaves in souths.Learn your history and they had whites slaves first and they weren’t indenture slaves.
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No it was the blacks that was racist against the dark blacks not whites . There is ugly blacks and ugly white s but people get over that after they really get to know that person. I think we all of a little racism in us if you call it that we are all made different ,And I do hated when blacks come visted me and my husband they don’t stay that long its like they don’t feel comfortable And I do notice that when a family member marry a black its always the white side that accept them its like blacks family side don’t want them around. And it wasn’t for money because they both work. And we should all lose the n word and the c word I know people that uses them words say them just because they are mad and not all people use them words are racist
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Iman is very very ugly woman in the erth the etipia and Somaliy woman is the most ugly woman in the world
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An impressive share! I have just forwarded this onto a friend who had been doing a little homework on this. And he in fact ordered me dinner because I stumbled upon it for him… lol. So let me reword this…. Thank YOU for the meal!! But yeah, thanks for spending the time to talk about this topic here on your website.
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What about Gabrielle Union? This list is so dated…What about Sanaa Lathan?
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People are only as beautiful as they are on the inside.