China takes up most of East Asia. It is the largest country in the world. As large as America is, for every American there are more than four Chinese people.
As things stand now it is set to become the world’s top power sometime this century. It is so large that once it reaches the level of development seen in the West, no country, apart from maybe India, will be able to stand up to it. Not even America.
But besides India, three other things could stop it:
- Oil. There does not seem to be enough oil in the world for China to complete the growth of its industry. A new system of power will have to be found.
- The greying of China. For the past thirty years Chinese parents could only have one child. This has succeeded all too well: now China will face a sudden drop in its labour force while having to support more and more old people.
- Civil war. The communists still rule China, but for how long? And what happens when they fall? When the emperor fell in the early 1900s it was followed by a generation of civil war. In the past when the ruling party fell, war followed.
The cycle of history that China has followed for thousands of years:
- Warlords: The country is divided among warlords, who are always fighting one another. The country is poor and torn by war. This can go on for centuries.
- The emperor: in time the country is united under one man. His family or, in the case of Mao, his political party, rule the land and bring peace. Prosperity returns. The new rulers may be foreigners, like the Mongols and Manchus, or they may bring in foreign ways, like the communists.
- Corruption at the top: After a long period of rule, after maybe centuries, the men at the top grow corrupt. They no longer care about anything but themselves. The government weakens and, no longer able to hold the country together, it falls apart. Warlords appear and the whole cycle begins over again.
Although China has been ruled by foreigners and has taken on some of their ways, in the end it is China that conquers the conquerors: if not the conquerors themselves, then their children or grandchildren become Chinese. China is simply too large.
Like America, India and Saudi Arabia, China is at the heart of one of the four great living civilizations of the world. Like India it is close to being a universal state for its civilization.
Unlike Western and Muslim civilization, religion is not a driving force. Nor does it see itself as a universal civilization for all mankind.
China is an empire. It rules not just the Chinese but also Turks and Tibetans in the west, some Mongols in the north and the Tai and Burmese in the mountains of the south. China has grown bit by bit down through the ages by people like these at the edges becoming Chinese.
– Abagond, 2007.
See also:
Only when China gets it’s monarch (an emperor) back. It can truly be free.
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It’s good
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“It is the largest country in the world”
Sorry what do you mean by this??? Russia and Canada are obviously LARGER than China, so in what sense do you mean this???
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He meant in population size
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@ jefe
It is funny, I was just in Qingdao (Shandong) last week, and I saw toddlers NOT wearing diapers (actually, I have seen this many times before, but it has been a while so it left an impression). Their pants have an open slit in the back. The mother just holds the baby by the head and feet and lets the baby leave droppings in the street just like people who walk their dogs. When they (Mainland Chinese visitors) do this in HK, people are aghast. Even people in HK clean up after their dogs.
Revolting! Don’t they lock people up in Hong Kong for that sort of thing.
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Reference comment: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/03/01/welcome-to-white-history-month/#comment-219441
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@Legion,
You would be amazed at how many photos and videos of the behavior of Mainland Chinese visitors to Hong Kong. I have seen videos of mainland chinese visitors squatting and defecating on the street in HK.
And then mainland Chinese bombast HKers for complaining about them.
Several years ago, I used to liken groups of mainland Chinese squatting and smoking in public places as “pigeons”, but that was back when their numbers were small.
And now they are all over the place. Not only do I see them in Thailand and Bali and parts of the Philippines, but groups of them in my last visit to Argentina and Brazil too. I wonder how long it will take the rest of the world to adapt to their behavior.
I still find it interesting why you pointed that (the open toddler pants) out of all the things I mentioned (ie, regarding why many ordinary Chinese are fascinated with Western things). In Qingdao, I also saw bicycles for rent on the street by credit card or some prepaid card and can be dropped off at another location, all self-service. The only place I have seen that in the USA is Washington, DC.
BTW, I did a google search for “chinese toddler split pants” and they have thousands of photos. Just check it out.
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I still find it interesting why you pointed that (the open toddler pants) out of all the things I mentioned
Jefe, come now, in your previous professional work, I’m almost certain you found outliers to be of great interest. This revolting practice of doing #2 in the street would certainly be an outlier of human behavior to my Western raised self.
I don’t wish to come off tit-for-tat, but I did wonder why you even mentioned it, since it did not seem too germane to the topic of Chinese fascination with Western/white things/culture.
By the way, I did appreciate the rest of what you had to say, I just didn’t have time to go into the rest, in terms of a response and like I say the outlier got me somewhat … animated. 🙂
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I saw a couple of people squat and take a crap in Times Square in the late 70’s…New york was a differant city back then
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@Legion,
Maybe you should take a trip to China and tell us what you think of the place that is home to 1/5 of mankind.
My reaction to toddler split pants is different. I just think, Oh yeah, we’re in China. I suppose my point was that, yeah, they do admire the West and yet do so many things which people in the West find bizarre, if not revolting.
And yes, HK people don’t do that anymore. They obviously have been corrupted by the Western influence. 😛
After that, go to India? 😛
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^ I have very positive feelings towards India and would love to go there one day.
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^ meaning your feeling towards china is not as positive?
so u have not been to either china or india?
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@ jefe
No, I have not been to either country.
Intellectually, I know a trip to China would be interesting, breathtaking even, but I have no strong desire to go. I think of them as having disdain or racism for blacks, so that does not help either. At home I just inherently avoid Chinese born and Japanese born people. I am extremely surprised if they are friendly. Most encounters with them have been unpleasant.
Many years ago I had a very bad experience where I had to struggle against embryonic racist feelings. My car broke down on a sort of quasi highway during winter. I made my way to a small grocery mart staffed by a lone middle aged East Asian man (anyone’s guess if he was Chinese or Korean,etc.) I explained to him about my broken down car and asked to use his phone. He just smiled and took immense pleasure in uttering the word, “No”, all the while smiling and giving me very direct eye contact. It was very cold that night and the next shop was going to be a significant distance away. I had already come quite a distance.
For roughly a month I had to STRONGLY fight against racist thoughts and feelings against any east asian looking person that I just randomly saw in daily life. Something in me wanted to hate them all. Hate them very passionately. I literally fought against this for roughly a month, the threshold racism slowly started to recede until I was finally back at my baseline psychological self. But I keep my distance from east asians as much as possible, I think it’s better for me to do so.
The exceptions about keeping my distance would be you (though I’m not totally clear on your background) and Kiwi. And yes, I realize how lame that is, since this is the web I’m talking about now.
If I had not fought in the way I did against this inner force (and it did feel like a powerful force) I would be racist against East Asians today, there is no question about it. I fought against these growing feelings because I just didn’t want to be a person with racist hate inside of him.
Perhaps you’ve had the same experience Jefe? Did you hate blacks for awhile or fight against that temptation when that son of a bitch assaulted you at your apartment?
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Jesus Aba, get some sleep!
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Obviously, if you try your best to avoid all encounters, and the only ones you have are the ones you did not manage to avoid, it is likely that it is not going to be pleasant. You are setting up yourself for failure.
And you know, intellectually, to tar 1/4 of mankind with that brush due to that very unpleasant individual encounter you had does not make any more sense than to brand all persons in the world of African descent after one unpleasant encounter with a black individual. In fact, the fact that you had no idea whether he was ethnic Korean, Chinese or something else, whether or not he was American, etc. shows that you really have no interest in learning anything more about the category of people that you have grouped 1/4 of mankind. I hope that you realize one day that it does not really make any sense.
Maybe it might help to seek out an encounter that is 99.9% likely to be positive and learn how to manage the occasional bad ones. If you keep that racist hate inside you, it will strike you back (as it seems like it has).
I have never never EVER had that attitude towards blacks. For each black that robbed me, assaulted me, etc. I had a dozen white people who did that to me too and a hundred black people that were friendly or at least neutral. I shared a locker with a black guy throughout high school. I saw how horrible whites could be towards blacks, so when I saw blacks do horrible things to whites, I did not think that only blacks could be horrible. As you might remember I grew up in Anacostia, DC and PG county, Maryland – both have overwhelming black majorities. I realize that most blacks in the USA are middle class and are really just normal every citizens like white people.
I have had to fight the feelings of disgust I had towards whites, esp. those from the inland South. I still sometimes get chills up my spine when I hear or see them. I have some bad feelings from childhood that I have never shook completely. That created some rift with my brother who seemed to “glom” to southern white culture. I have had to go and study it and analyze it to come up with some explanation why they are the way they are. In fact, it might be part of the reason I found Abagond’s blog.
Even within Greater China, there are a lot of hostilities – resentment of Mainland Chinese from HK people grows daily. And China vilifies its neighbors. People in East Asia don’t really spend that much time thinking about black people. I could imagine your vilifying two different individuals who, in fact, can’t stand each other.
In HK, it is South Asians, ie, ethnic Indians, Pakistanis, Bengalis, Nepalese, etc. that get the most crap.
And the Chinese population is so large, I think that sooner or later, no one in the world will be able to avoid it. It is like a *force* of nature that has to be dealt with. IT is what it is.
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If you keep that racist hate inside you, it will strike you back (as it seems like it has).
Wait, you are saying that I do have racist hate based on what I said above? You don’t think you’re going to far with that opinion. What I have is aversion, that’s not a nice quality either but aversion isn’t hate Jefe.
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*too far …
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I only used the word hate because you did (even though you said you had to fight against those feelings). It was not my opinion. If you feel that you have scaled that back to an “aversion”, then we can use that. We can call it a “racist aversion”.
I don’t think I have any racist aversion but I will be happy if anyone pointed it out to me. But I really think that human beings are really quite similar to each other.
I do hate things like mosquitoes. I have no problem attempting to kill them on sight.
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I am wondering about the presence of China in Africa, is it to rob the Africans of all there natural resources? Why are they in Africa if not to make a huge profit and become fat cats, how does this benefit the African people? The only people benefiting from this is high ranking government officials in Africa. Again how does this benefit the people. I don’t feel this is a win/win situation.
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@ Jefe
WOW! on the patronizing tone. You’re offended and now you’re giving me some attitude. What do you want? I told you something honest, something real from my life. I am not an angel. Newsflash, no one on this planet is an angel, I’m not alone in my imperfection*. Anyway, if you’re getting a good rise out of patronizing me good for you!
If you could manage to read with maturity, empathy and not rush to press the “I’m offended” button you would have called it an aversion yourself. I thought we were on the verge of a bit of interesting exchange but that won’t be happening now.
* Except you, of course. You’re a Saint! *Legion bows in reverence*
——————————————————————
We can call it a “racist aversion”.
^ I must be in a very patient mood today because I do believe I’m going to manage to make this post without using a single curse word. Who is “we”? YOU want to judge me, YOU want to label me a racist. I am calling it what it is: an aversion, full stop.
You are one exalted piece of work to think you can judge anyone!
Try not to be such a coward in the future.
———-
Lastly, it is not “one experience”, it’s the one experience that I’ve shared. Oh wait! You’re a judgmental know-it-all, so you must be in the right! Right? 😀
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Sorry, Legion, I was not at all offended, I was not trying to be offensive. I apologize if I came across in a condescending tone, And I am not really trying to judge you.
Well, maybe *slightly* very slightly taken aback because you told me *hate* was *my* term. I borrowed it from you, but please, do not think it means any more than that. I have already gotten over it.
Thank you for expressing yourself, though. It’s good to let it off your chest.
Let’s be friendly, eh?
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@MB,
Well, China wants natural resources and roads and infrastructure to get them. Govt officials might like their kickbacks. I am just speculating.
BTW, there is a large presence of Africans who have settled in China esp. in the past decade. There are almost 100,000 in the southern city of Guangzhou alone. But they are not there to take China’s natural resources or build infrastructure to get them. They are looking for cheap products to take back to sell in Africa. Guangzhou is at the heart of the Pearl River delta, “the World’s factory”.
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@ Jefe (a.k.a. Your Highness)
And you know, intellectually, to tar 1/4 of mankind with that brush due to that very unpleasant individual encounter you had does not make any more sense than to brand all persons in the world of African descent after one unpleasant encounter with a black individual.
Because you want to use the experience that I posted about as a way to feel morally superior, you totally missed something very basic about my experience. When I am less angry I may return to this thread to elaborate on what you missed. Please note, however, I will do this, not for your edification Jefe, and my response won’t be addressed to you, I will use what you’ve said as material but don’t think of this as a request for dialogue with you, Your Highness. I will simply be doing it for others who may have an interest in the thread so far, or just to offer some other views not from the morally judgmental position.
——————————–
In fact, the fact that you had no idea whether he was ethnic Korean, Chinese or something else, whether or not he was American, etc. shows that you really have no interest in learning anything more about the category of people that you have grouped 1/4 of mankind.
Uh, no. It shows that I realize he was East Asian and that it would be wrong of me to go any further in pinpointing, because I had no basis to do so. To narrow it down out of thin air on a whim would have been the ignorant move. When I see random black people I know they have African ancestry, I don’t immediately say they are from Jamaica, like whites do!
————————————
Again, do see if you can try to be something other than a coward and just come out and say it plainly that you’ve discovered you are a better human than some random individual you’ve encountered on the internet. Masses of people will be stirred in their very bosom that you’re better than me Jefe. Children will sing songs about you, I’m quite sure!
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Sir, my point was not at all to feel morally superior. I seriously apologize if it came across that way.
I found it very stressful in the USA – I felt that it was difficult to get along with whites, Asian-Americans and Blacks because of all this racial judgement that people practice there all the time. I think it has something to do with American culture. I guess I am a coward because I finally decided to leave. I certainly have not found any utopia yet, but just the thought of settling back in the USA sends anxiety through my bones, and I think part of it is that USA has not taken a fair square look at its racial problems. (Part of it also has to do with worrying daily about crime. I find it really stressful there.)
I wish I had the strength and courage to face it when I was there, but I guess I sought another solution. When I talk to you, I don’t really mean it in an individual way, but it is more about how I felt about US society, and that is just a reflection of it.
I have my own demons. I am certainly not trying to belittle any of yours.
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Well, maybe *slightly* very slightly taken aback because you told me *hate* was *my* term. I borrowed it from you
No, you used it against me. I pointed out how I went through a month long struggle to overcome something that if left unattended, I knew would harden into hate. Amazingly you skip the struggle that I mention so you can use *hate*. You did not borrow from me at all because you would have kept to my whole story if you were trying to understand me, you truncated the whole experience that I described and you used *hate* because you WANTED to.
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Tell me why did I think of Legion when I read this?
http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/chinese-tourists-call-for-boycott-on-hong-kong-after-clash-with-locals/story-fnizu68q-1226896414791
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Jefe said: My brother was attacked and beat up by a group of blacks when he was a teenager. From that day on, he held a great disdain, even almost hatred of blacks (not too unlike Legion’s dislike of persons of east Asian descent, but perhaps even more violent).
Ref thread: https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/02/13/internet-trolls/#comment-230736
Nope. Wrong. Wrong and wrong.
Your brother’s feeling and reaction(s) are totally different than mine. He faced a catalyst and I faced a catalyst. It seems your brother nursed the base emotions stirred by his catalyst and notice how I responded to my catalyst by quickly and with no outside resources, resisting and overcoming what was trying to take deep roots in my psyche as racist hate. I’m proud of myself for overcoming it. My efforts were all geared toward getting my feelings as far from hate as I could.
The residual aversion that is left over is not pretty, I suppose, but it is not the end of the world either. Because I was watching myself quite closely during my experience with that s.o.b. I saw that the aversion was starting to take form; it did not and does not horrify me. It feels like a protective mechanism. I may shed it one day, long term that is probably the wisest thing to do with it. I certainly won’t be getting rid of it because East Asians should be bowed down to simply because of their vast numbers Jefe.
———————————————-
If we don’t pay attention to signals from the environment when we are of sound mind and body then we are just stupid. I have received negative responses from East Asians besides my catalyst anecdote, I am a fool if I play the, “don’t worry be happy” game.
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Diminishing returns and growing unease (on my part) have set in on our conversation/exhange Jefe. I will most likely not respond to any other comments you make about me on the topic we’ve been engaging in, even if you continue to mischaracterize me.
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Never had any vendetta against you or any desire whatsover to mischaracterize you at all. sounds like you made peace with that experience.
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Wow.
I’ve had a realization (too personal to recount in any detail): I’ve found a secret blessing in the whole experience which I recounted in this thread. Also, I think I’m moving past the experience as in dropping the resentment. I thought this was a long way off into the future but it appears to be happening now, which is great. Super great!
————————
No hard feelings on my end Jefe. Thank you for the dialogue.
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To what do we attribute this epiphany?
Anyhow, I have to go to mainland China again next week 😦 😦 😦
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Why does make you sad to go there, Jefe?
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@ Jefe
To what do we attribute this epiphany?
• Introspection leading to insight.
• Luck
• Recent experiences that push out perspective to make one’s vision and appreciation broader.
some more too but that’s enough detail.
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@Bulanik,
Have you ever been to Mainland China?
Anyhow, I was thinking about doing a post soon on “Ugly Chinese Tourist”. My ideal destination for holiday is one that is not already overrun with mainland Chinese.
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@Legion
You sound as if you just fell in love. 😛
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^ You guys can dig all you like. Lips are sealed. 😛
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Can anyone tell me how events in Hong Kong are being reported where you are? Is it even making the news?
It is the largest, most complicated act of civil disobedience ever in HK and the largest in Chinese territory since the Tiananmen Incident / Massacre in 1989.
They used pepper spray, tear gas and pointed guns with rubber bullets on the crowd on Sunday. It is the first time since the riots of 1967 that they used tear gas on crowds.
The secondary student leader Joshua Wong was captured has been held in police custody with no explanation for 2.5 days now.
All this only enraged people more and caused more to come out.
Ground transportation has come to a halt in at least 4 different main commercial sections of the city. To understand this, in New York City, Wall Street, Times Square, 34th st. / Penn Station and the UN would be simultaneously occupied by tens of thousands in the streets. Today is day 4 already.
Crowds will only grow in the next few days as the Oct 1 National Holiday arrives.
Will they issue a crackdown and send in the People’s Liberation Army? Let’s hope for a peaceful solution with no bloodshed.
But, one can be assured that if there is a violent crackdown, Taiwan will never consider reunification. A violent crackdown will set off a chain reaction beyond the control of Beijing.
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@Kiwi,
I guess you don’t remember 1989, but I was in NY at that time and the US news stations were covering it daily all day long. Right after the crackdown, 1 million people in HK protested in the streets.
It received international scrutiny and condemnation then.
The current crop of protesters were not even born yet in 1989. Some were not even born during the handover in 1997.
HK people were always regarded as politically apathetic, but since the handover, the youth have increasingly become very galvanized and prone to political action.
Agree that 2014 is VERY different. For example, on Sunday, as soon as police deployed tear gas in Central, another group formed almost immediately across the harbour on the Kowloon side in Mongkok. The ability to organize very quickly will outpace any ability of the police to do any crackdown. Unless they shut down the internet.
Ground transportation is essentially shut down in all the main business districts now. But the gatherings of protestors is surprisingly very peaceful, very calm and also tidy – they have been picking up all their litter as they go along.
But what is different is that this is HK, not Beijing. Few cities receive more international attention than this one. And the people watching in Taiwan – have to ask my friends what is on their minds there.
If there is a crackdown, we can expect mass emigration.
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@ Jefe
In the US it is being covered, kind of as something simmering. The first two times it came up I did a double take thinking it was Ferguson, but now the crowds are so huge there is no mistaking it,
It seems like the media is keeping an eye on it in case China cracks down and the story goes big, like Tiananmen Square did (that still gives me goosebumps 25 years later). On MSNBC they were saying China probably will not crack down because Hong Kong is the goose that lays the golden egg.
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Who alive in 1989 doesn’t have goosebumps over the Tiananmen Square incident! That is why we all are looking at what happens in Hong Kong.
(Ha-ha, Kiwi’s comment was deleted?)
I can tell you that demonstrations and civil disobedience in Hong Kong bear no resemblance to anything that you see in the USA.
For example, for the July 1 demonstration march, 510,000 participated, about double that of the March on Washington in 1963, but there was no act of violence by any participant and no defacement of any private or public property. It was remarkably peaceful.
There has been no riot in Hong Kong since 1967. Not even during the 1 million march in June 1989 immediately following the Tiananmen Square massacre.
Hong Kong is more densely populated than Manhattan, yet over half a million people can pour into the streets to demonstrate without any violence or scarcely any vandalism. Can you imagine Broadway from Times Square to Wall Street full with that size crowd with not a single act of violence?
And for the current “Occupy Central” civil disobedience:
– Not one single participant has engaged in an act of violence. All of the violence was performed by the police (tear gas, pepper spray, baton hitting), who have now retracted (as it seems to have backfired).
– It is remarkably peaceful, orderly and tidy, given the length of the protest and the number of people participating. It is a very warm and friendly environment (despite their strong message and their resolution).
– Not one significant incident of defacement of property or looting. They even keep off the grass around govt buildings.
– students are skipping classes, but bring their textbooks with them so that they can study while they are demonstrating
– people donate umbrellas, googles, face masks, plastic coats, etc. to guard against future attacks by the police and against the weather
– people donated food (fruit,, buns and snacks), water, etc. at stations free of charge to demonstrators at the protest sites.
– It has been bruling hot the past few days. There are even people bringing water sprays and wet towels to cool off demonstrators.
– Rubbish has been collected periodically in bags and disposed of. Recyclables are separated and sorted into separate recycling piles). The students all said that they do not want anyone to accuse them of being disrespectful of property or the environment (despite harsh criticism by Beijing branding this an illegal activity and the participants as criminals).
When the police became violent on Sunday, none of the demonstrators became violent. In fact, they called for reinforcements. Tens of thousands more showed up and also some dispersed to other major sites in the city. Social media enabled 2-3 additional sites (ie, Mongkok on the Kowloon side, the densest part of the city, and for many decades the densest square kilometer in the world, as well as Causeway Bay, the main shopping district in HK with some of the world’s most expensive real estate) to be blocked by thousands of demonstrators within just 1/2 hour. The government has realized that the police do not have any capability to respond with force. It will just reappear elsewhere with additional reinforcements.
BBC said something about the “civilty” of this civil disobedience:
(http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-29423147)
This is what I wish would happen in the USA, eg, in Ferguson. Imagine, say, if 300,000 people showed up and participated in a peaceful civil disobedience without a single act of violence. Even if the police become violent, they remain peaceful and simply call for more reinforcements in different places, until the police, even the entire state police force would be too overwhelmed to perform any control.
Civil disobedience protests in the USA become violent (on both sides) and are so small and middling that they hardly accomplish anything. But let’s see what this one in HK will bring.
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The following article is a good summary of what it looked like on the ground in Hong Kong Monday.
http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1604461/top-10-moments-occupy-central-so-far
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@ Kiwi
I do not know what became of your comment. I see no sign of it.
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@ Jefe
You wouldn’t by chance want to do a guest post on Occupy Central?
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@ Jefe
Since the 1990s democracy in Hong Kong has been a subject that depressed me, so it is wonderful to see this.
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Wow, Gee, that is a challenge – sometimes I am not sure I know enough about what is going on to write a post. But I suppose I know more than anyone else who regular reads your blog. And then condense it down to 500 words. But I guess you can help with that.
Maybe you can send me a brief email about what information you see is key (ie, the key 4-5 points) and I can see if I can flesh any of those out a bit, or add or subtract from it. I guess just enough basic facts to get people to talk about it. (ie, the few steps in the past year that suddenly caused this to break out).
I actually plan to visit one of the demonstration sites tonight – only walking distance from me. I don’t have to worry about there being no bus or tram to the closest sit-in site.
The development of democracy in HK would probably take 50 posts all by itself. That’s a story.
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@ Jefe
No one could write a better post than you since a) you are there (!!!), b) know this blog and c) have written successful posts in the past.
If you want, I could write a rough post as a starting point and then you could correct it and add or subtract from it according to what you think is important.
Stuff I would be interested to know (each of these would have a sentence to a paragraph, or maybe covered implicitly), but it is up to you to decide what is most important to know:
1. Basic facts: where, when, what, who, why. Dates, size, leaders, organizations, demands, etc.
2, Brief history of democracy in Hong Kong (one paragraph, maybe two, enough to more or less understand what is going on).
3. Comparison to past Hong Kong protests, at least, maybe to US protests (Ferguson, Occupy, 1960s), Arab Spring, etc.
4. Why or how it became so big (“successful”). Is it spreading to other cities?
5. How it relates (or not) to Tiananmen Square.
6. Government reaction (police action, statements, etc).
7. Prospects.
8. What, if anything, is getting filtered out by US coverage. You can use cnn.com as typical. Even if you do not cover this, I would know what the difference is so that you know what points to hit in the post since most readers of this blog will get their information from such sources, directly or indirectly. Yahoo! News and USA Today are warmed over AP news feeds, which is what gets pumped out to most US newspapers (which cannot afford on-the-ground reporters).
9. Links to good sources of information for those who want to know more or follow events (put in the See Also section)..
10+. Whatever other commenters want to add to this list.
Possible model posts (of other posts on protests):
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/06/04/that-day/
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/08/14/ferguson/
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/02/22/moral-mondays/
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/08/19/march-on-washington-1963/
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/01/16/selma/
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/05/28/freedom-riders/
As always, I have no trouble cutting down whatever you write down to 500 words, even if it is 5,000 words long.
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@Jefe
Can you please tell me how all of that got started?
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Hi,
Took a walk to Causeway Bay, one of the secondary sit-in sites and then to Central itself. It is an amazingly great feeling and experience.
@Abagond,
OK, I will try to draft something on those points and similar to your style. I would add another point about symbols (eg, umbrellas, yellow ribbons, numbers, etc.) Maybe send a rough draft with blanks (of names, dates, figures, etc.) that I have to look up.
It might also be comparable to the People Power movement that overthrew Marcos in the Philippines in the 1980s or Tiananmen. I don’t really think it compares on the scale to anything in the USA except for perhaps the March on Washington (1963). As I said before, I feel protest demonstrations in the USA generally are very middling. People in the USA don’t seem to feel the same level of outrage, even over Ferguson and Trayvon Martin.
Regarding the news presented in the USA, the only thing I can think I would notice is that they tend to sensationalize certain selected aspects of everything. There is a very practical side of facing a situation.
@ Sharina,
Let me draft something first. Then we can see if we can answer your other questions. But Hong Kong has been pushed into a situation where it is teetering on a tightrope.
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@ Jefe
Awesome. I look forward to it!
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Just sent a long first draft. There is apt to be some repetition that can be cut out.
Need to dig up appropriate photos and links, but welcome your suggestions.
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But I realize that we probably need a post entitled “Hong Kong”, maybe not too unlike other posts you did on “China”, :Beijing”, :New York”, etc.
My impression is that 98% in the USA really don’t understand what it means and what its relationship to “China” is.
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@ Jefe
Right, a post on Hong Kong itself is in order.
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just as I was sending off that draft, the situation turned sour.
The CE said he would not step down, but the Chief Secretary (2nd in command) will have a dialogue with the students.
But he said that if any student stormed the govt offices, then police will point guns at them, this time with real bullets.
The leaders of the 2 student groups told them to remain calm and not storm the CE office. They do not want any VIOLENCE to occur.
But, as the CE did not step down, and they do not trust the “dialogue” that would transpire, they did not storm the govt offices, but blockaded the entrance to the area around the central govt offices and resist the police from removing the blockades. No violence yet, but ….
The PLA garrison is just 2 blocks away. The 6000 strong military force could be there in less than 5 minutes.
Please, pray, pray.
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A violent scuffle broke out earlier this evening in Mongkok (on Kowloon Peninsula) between the protestors and the anti-Occupy central groups, resulting in some injuries and a few arrests.
Benny Tai, of Occupy Central, urged the ones in Mongkok to return to Central and congregate in front of the Central Government offices.
A sit-in formed in Mongkok as a reaction to the violent force that police used in Central this past Sunday, causing protestors to reform and disperse in other districts. Since they can reformulate at anytime they might as well stick to Central for now unless the police use violent tactics again.
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@jefe and Abagond, thank you so much for discussing and bringing your point of view to this event. Its just incredible how it’s mostly been ignored in the news in the United States so far.
I really appreciate your insight and observations, jefe.
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Friday night, the protestors claimed that external anti Occupy central protestors entered the area in Mongkok to disrupt the demonstrators (eg, by pulling down their service gazebos) while the police looked on and did nothing until demonstrators got injured.
More violent scuffles broke out last night causing police to bring out their batons and pepper spray again.
Circulated rumours:
1. “Thugs” are being paid by business interests or mainland Chinese interests to invade the protest sites and disrupt them. It was reported that some were paid HK$7000 each (about US$900).
2. Mainland Chinese media has stepped up the reporting that the protestors are being logistically supported by foreigners. In particular, the US govt has been implicated in aiding the demonstrators (ie, the US govt wants to incite sedition in HK to spread to other areas in the Greater China region, spurring an “Arab Spring” event in China).
I tend to believe that #1 is very possible, as there are many events every year where individuals or business owners who publish anti-government messages get roughed up or injured by small groups of thugs. It would not surprise me if some were hired to disrupt any of the demonstrators.
I find the 2nd harder to believe. Because
– the demands are very simple and nonviolent (ie, including civic nominations in the election procedure and asking CY Leung to step down). Beijing has taken a very hard line to both. The unwillingness to compromise (together with the threat of violence from the police), to me, is spurring the demonstrators on more than anything the USA or a foreign government could do.
– the movement does not appear to be spurred on by any independent leader or organization, but has grown organically. I know hundreds of people who are participating regularly in the demonstrations and none seemed to be influenced or impacted directly by anything going in a foreign country. The opposition to the movement seem to believe this rumour much more.
– The spirit of Universal Suffrage has been a main theme since the handover. Really, foreigners are planting sedition in the minds of HK people?
The US does have to be concerned this time, esp. if China blames the USA if any violent bloodshed erupts. And if they blame the USA if Taiwan then takes a hardline about reuniting with the mainland, USA might just get egged into getting involved
Can China, for once, stop blaming their own “domestic” unrest on foreign agitators? They blamed the violence in Xinjiang on Uyghurs who were being trained in Pakistan and middle East countries to become terrorists to overthrow Chinese rule. They blame foreigners for stirring up Tibetans by entertaining the Dala Lama and spreading messages about atrocities in Tibet, as well as India for giving homage to Tibetans who fled during the Tibetan uprising and reorganized there. They now blame foreigners for inciting unrest in Hong Kong.
When are they going to stop blaming foreigners for “domestic” problems. To me, it is a sign of leadership weakness to blame foreigners for all your country’s troubles, a “broken record” argument. They already block western social media and have millions of internet police to control the spread of information. They have tried tooth and nail to prevent foreigners from influencing their people, yet, spread information that foreigners want China to weaken and break apart.
Over a million Hongkongers got foreign passports in the 1980s-1990s specifically to insure themselves against a hardline stand by mainlanders. These are primarily the people who own property or the professional class. Does the government really want people to flee? This is something that is very different from Tiananmen.
Or maybe China wants to “cleanse” Hong Kong of people who do not sympathize with the Central Govt?
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Videos / Photos of the following 2 events were recorded and recorded on social media among the protestors.
1. Police apprehending one of the agitators trying to disrupt the demonstrations and attacking people, but escorted him to take a taxi instead of to a police car.
2. Plain clothes man trying to disrupt the demonstrations alongside another photo of the same man in a police uniform.
This has only further enraged the demonstrators, making them believe that the police are not there to protect them, but to disrupt them or let them be attacked.
If you see the protests they are EXCEEDINGLY peaceful.and tidy with no evidence of violence or vandalism. You can even go to sleep there and find it quiet and comfortable to sleep on the street and don’t have to worry about getting robbed or bothered.
They become violent only due to non-demonstrators, ie, the police or anti-occupy protestors.
I also walked by Joshua Wong earlier in Central walking with one other friend. He is a very slight, young boy about 5.6″ or so – very unassuming look.
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@ jefe
Hong Kong made the cover of The Economist this week but not Time magazine (it has Ebola).
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^ The Economist article was printed on Sep 30 before the National Holiday. It is already very past tense. We are into Day 10 of the demonstrations now.
China cancelled organized group tours from China during the National Holiday, but maybe a couple hundred thousand came on their own. I really don’t know how long China can keep the word about these demonstrations from spreading. I wonder if they can contain the spread of the non-internet non-telephone based messaging systems.
Causeway Bay has shrunken considerably. Haven’t seen Mongkok, but it looks like it is still being maintained and gained a large crowd last night.
This morning a 2m passageway was open to let workers enter the central govt offices (I saw it last night). But, they made this concession with the assurance that the central govt will arrange talks with the main organizing groups.
Are Americans concerned that China is largely blaming the US and other western countries for exacerbating this demonstration? Are they afraid that they might get egged into getting involved?
But really, the whole is really very peaceful until the police or paid thugs come in and disturb things.
Debating whether to bring my mat and a pillow to Central tonight.
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I just received a social media announcement that they are calling on all people affected by (and against) Occupy Central to storm the houses of the parents of Joshua Wong and Alex Chow tonight. These are the 2 main leaders of Scholarism, the secondary school activist organization.
These 2 guys are just high school teenagers.
They had better spend the night in Central. Probably safer and quieter there.
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@jefe give us a link please i got nothing off twitter and google
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No, this is not from twitter or google or stuff like that, but from groups that some of my friends use to talk to each other.
They sent me the address of Joshua Wong’s parents in case ppl wanted to storm his house tonight.
My feeling – the protests have been more or less very peaceful, very tidy, very orderly, more or less, until the police show up or external thugs. Now inciting people to storm the houses of the parents of scholarism organizers does not sound very peaceful and non-violent to me.
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@jefe
I am quite shocked to hear that. One thing I am not shocked about is the lack of coverage we are getting here.
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@ Jefe
My husband and I got into a discussion in regards to what appears to be going on via your comments here. Unfortunately I could not give him much to go on so I really look forward to the updates you provide.
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Didn’t see any news about the scholarism’s homes getting stormed. An anti-Occupy friend sent me the addresses telling people to rally there last night.
What’s on the news there now? I still see CNN, NYT, AP and Reuters still reporting on it?
It is getting weary now after 10 days.
The non pro-Beijing newspapers (eg, Apple Daily) keep on reporting that organized crime syndicates (ie, “mafia”) have been sending thugs to disrupt the protests and attack protestors and have been circulating photos and videos about this, including today.
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@ Jefe
Watching MSNBC and Al Jazeera America on Monday there was no mention of it. They were obsessing over Ebola and ISIS.
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I guess they are waiting for more violence to erupt.
Well, it was taking 100% of the local news here 24/7, but now I would say it has reduced to about 60-70% of the news, as there is now some mention of Ebola, ISIS and Brazil elections.
I still see it ranking #4 on CNN today.
Of course local people are pretty much fully focused on the protests. But, they are getting weary too.
Kids went back to school today. in the districts near the protests.
But if they bring out any force, they can quickly mobilize tens of thousands to come back out.
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This opinion on CNN was interesting:
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/10/06/opinion/china-media-protests-young/index.html?hpt=hp_c3
Discussing tactics China uses to control the media. (also includes some good photos with comments about the protests).
They have been doing this for years. I remember when they had a few violent anti-Japan protests in Shanghai about 5 years ago, and we saw footage in HK, but I asked my friend working in Shanghai just a few blocks away from the protests, and he knew nothing about it.
Can you imagine protests and militarized police violent action in Ferguson and still have 95% in metro St. Louis have no idea that such a thing occurred?
I think they have people plant pro-CCCP stuff even on western blogsites. If Abagond had significant content about China, I bet they would even show up here (although wordpress is blocked / banned in China).
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@Abagond,
You asked me to draft a post (which I have received no advice / feedback or request in the past week).
BUT
Barring that,
After reading the following CNN article which came out today, I think it spells it out pretty well with links to other articles discussing each point:
“Who’s who in the Hong Kong protests?”
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/10/07/world/asia/hong-kong-protest-explainer/index.html
I think this is just as good, with plenty of photos too.
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@ Jefe
I sent you my rough draft.
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@Abagond,
replied to you.
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@ Jefe
Wonderful. Thanks.
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Indeed, the situation changes as we speak. Legislative Council (Legco) representative Lau Kong Wah announced this afternoon and the student leaders just spoke at a press conference tonight that talks will take place on Friday. The dialogue will be open to the press.
But the Student leader Lester Shum was quite harsh in rebuking Lau for trying to disguise the objective of the meeting in some “flowery talk” about reaching a compromise as he stressed demands as clearly as possible without mincing words and stated that talks would halt if they start using that kind of language.
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Sorry, I meant ex-Legco rep Lau Kong Wah.
He was defeated in 2012.
Lau used to be a member of the proto-democratic parties in the 1990s, but switched later to DAB (Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong), a party known to be pro-Beijing. He is now vice-president of that party.
He is now Undersecretary of the Constitutional and Mainland Affairs Bureau.
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@ Jefe
I sent you the revised draft.
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Replied.
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Jefe’s guest post on the Hong Kong protests is now up:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/10/07/occupy-central-%E4%BD%94%E4%B8%AD/
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Taiwan’s ruling pro-China Kuomintang party suffered significant defeat to the Democratic Progressive Party, which is more socially liberal and tends to favour movement towards more independence from Mainland China.
This obviously was impacted by the Sunflower movement earlier this year, but I wonder if the HK umbrella movement also played any role.
Question is, will China try to engage the DPP if they gain more power?
BBC’s take:
(http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-30259090)
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Al Jazeera’s take:
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-pacific/2014/11/taiwan-pm-quits-after-election-losses-20141129122818283151.html
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I have decided to continue a comment from the Occupy Central post here, as a new issue has emerged beyond Hong Kong’s Universal Suffrage issue.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/10/07/occupy-central-%e4%bd%94%e4%b8%ad/#comment-268218
Some British MP’s have declared that China has broken its treaty with Britain, namely the Sino-British Joint Declaration of 1984. They said this after Chinese authorities indicated that the Parliamentary Foreign Affairs Committee would be refused entry to Hong Kong if they tried to enter later this month. The purpose of the visit is basically to do an spot check that the Joint Declaration is being adhered to.
Prime Minister David Cameron called it a “mistake” and “Counterproductive” but has not gone as far as declaring that China broke its treaty with Britain.
China quickly dismissed this as nonsense, even taking a full page ad in the English version of the People’s Daily indicating that China is a sovereign nation, Hong Kong is part of China, and foreigners have no business meddling in China’s domestic affairs. It urged Britain to abandon its “mentality of colonialism”.
But is it nonsense?
The South China Morning Post (SCMP) said today
The SCMP went on to say
I am no specialist in International law, but this is basically what I said in the Occupy Central post a couple days ago. Apparently, if the former Dean of the Faculty of Law at the University of Hong Kong came to the same conclusion, it is not simply nonsense.
Actually, the Sino-British Joint Liaison group to transition Hong Kong’s affairs met regularly until 2000. Apparently even China did not believe that Britain’s stake in the matter ended on July 1, 1997.
Hong Kong is also specifically given the power in the Joint Declaration to handle entry and exit from Hong Kong. If Beijing is jumping in here, doesn’t that indicate that it has not conformed to the “One Country, Two Systems” mandate?
This issue is much more serious than the Hong Kong Universal Suffrage issue (in my opinion).
You decide for yourself:
Joint Declaration of the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the Government of the People’s Republic of China on the Question of Hong Kong
(http://www.cmab.gov.hk/en/issues/jd2.htm)
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I saw people circulate on Social media today about the question — “What would happen if the Sino-British Joint Declaration of 1984 is invalidated?”
The answer is this:
The prior treaties that Britain signed with China are still valid. They have never been rescinded nor rendered void. The Joint Declaration simply superseded them. If the Joint Declaration is rendered invalid, that means that the prior treaties would hold.
What treaties are those?
1. Treaty of Nanking (1842)
This ceded Hong Kong Island to Britain in perpetuity. Britain has never had any obligation to return it to China.
2. Convention of Peking (1860)
This ceded the Kowloon Peninsula and adjoining Stonecutter island to Britain in perpetuity. Britain has never had any obligation to return it to China.
3. Second Convention of Peking (1898)
This ceded the New Territories, the area between the Kowloon Peninsula and Mainland China (ie, present day Shenzhen) and surrounding islands to Britain on a 99-year lease, which expired in 1997. Britain was obligated to return it to Qing Dynasty China, or its successor, the Republic of China. There is no mention that it has to return it to the People’s Republic of China, the government which gained control over the mainland (which from the Republic of China’s viewpoint, an “illegal occupation”).
All of these treaties are still being displayed in Taipei, Taiwan. The public may view them.
That means that Kowloon and Hong Kong Island would revert back to British sovereignty. The New Territories would be handed over to the Republic of China, which is still an extant government based in Taiwan. Neither would be returned to the PRC.
China has always referred to these and other treaties as “Unequal Treaties” (不平等條約). Even though they honoured them since 1842, they will likely not recognize them if the Joint Declaration is invalidated.
Anyhow, the diplomatic row over the treaty violation is likely to escalate.
The US may find it more and more difficult to stay neutral on this position.
The SCMP reported today
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The Hong Kong Economic Journal (local daily newspaper) took an editorial stance on this issue today
(from their English language website)
Taiwan has moved decidedly away from reunification with the Mainland this year, esp. with its decided shift towards its “Green” camp, which supports more independence from the PRC.
BTW, the Hong Kong Economic Journal, together with the Ming Pao and the Apple Daily often assume positions which are not pro-Beijing (if you haven’t guessed). The latter (Apple Daily) almost always does, and tends to have articles written in more vernacular Cantonese (as opposed to more standard written Chinese). It is blocked in Mainland China.
The editors from these newspapers have suffered violent attacks from thugs in recent years from vandalism to abduction and knife attacks.
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OK, the Telegraph in the UK gave the Chinese Ambassador to the UK an opportunity to present China’s side to the British people. Maybe you can be the judge of whether he made any valid points.
Well, at least he reiterated China’s position. But I think there was never any misunderstanding of China’s position that needed clarifying. They have been very consistent all along, and this is just a repetition of the same rhetoric. It does not mean that they have the correct or only interpretation. I personally feel he got a couple points dead wrong. A couple other points are phrased so that they are technically correct, but the reasons implied are the wrong reasons.
Similar to what the former dean of the School of Law at HK university said about the deputy ambassador’s statements – certain statements are viewpoints that are untenable.
This will continue to go back and forth for a while.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/hongkong/11277005/For-China-and-the-UK-respect-is-key.html
For China and the UK, respect is key
It’s time to share China’s side of the story about the Foreign Affairs Committee’s proposed ‘inquiry’ in Hong Kong, says Liu Xiaoming.
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Summon Chinese ambassador over Hong Kong entry ban, British MPs urge David Cameron
http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1660363/summon-chinese-ambassador-over-hong-kong-ban-british-mps-urge-pm
The MP’s in Britain’s parliamentary foreign affairs committee are trying to escalate this, not only asking Premier David Cameron to summon the Chinese Ambassador, but also calling on the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to raise the matter with partners in the European Union.
Today, the spokesmen for China’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs called on the British MP’s to drop this matter.
Meanwhile, 2 days ago, China Daily Asia reported that “A group of lawyers issued a written complaint to the United Nations Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon on Monday, requesting an investigation into the United Kingdom’s infringement of the UN Charter for its intervention into Hong Kong affairs, and thus the domestic affairs of China. ”
http://www.chinadailyasia.com/hknews/2014-12/09/content_15200699.html
(These are known to be pro-Beijing lawyers, as they are referred to in non pro-Beijing newspapers).
I don’t think this matter will be dropped anytime soon. The UK MPs feel that China has not allowed it to review its international treaties (which no country has ever done before). China feels that the UK is interfering in its internal affairs.
In any case, Beijing struck first by banning their entry to Hong Kong. (I say strike first re: exercise of the treaty – if China felt that UK violated the Sino-British Joint declaration first via the parliamentary committee’s desire to examine the status of their treaty, they never mentioned that, ie, they never said that Britain broke the treaty BEFORE banning their entry). But unless China can unequivocally demonstrate that Britain is threatening China’s sovereignty, by stepping in and banning the MPs, that alone could have broken the treaty. The power to determine who enters and exits Hong Kong is supposed to be determined by Hong Kong and not Beijing under the “One Country, Two Systems” principle codified in the Joint Declaration. But once taken, China cannot easily back away from its decision. They are stuck with it.
Secondly, Beijing has never denied the deputy ambassador’s assertion that Britain discharged its obligation in the Sino-British Joint Declaration on July 1, 1997. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs needs to address this ASAP.
They continue to swat it off like an annoying fly.
I don’t know what kind of diplomacy that is. Is this supposed to make up for Britain’s 19th century gunboat diplomacy?
Admittedly, UK is a unique case re: China. If China did break the treaty, then it does calls its sovereignty into question. But still, does it make sense to prevent letting people determine whether or not the treaty is being upheld or not by breaking it first?
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The China Daily (Chinese state English media) ran an opinion piece a few days ago. (Their editorial stances are widely viewed as mouthpieces of the government.)
HK visit: A political kabuki
(http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/opinion/2014-12/05/content_19028510.htm)
They said that,
However, that has never been the stated intention of the trip and besides, all of the so-called organizers of the Occupy movement have already either been arrested or turned themselves in, including the most of the pro-democracy legislators. The occupy campaign is pretty much over already – what sagging morale would the MP’s be trying to prop up?
They go on to state that
They go on to say that the UK is bent on trying to inspire a revolution to overthrow the government.
Really, now.
Frank Ching, a veteran journalist in Hong Kong, who opened the Wall Street Journal’s bureau in Hong Kong in 1979 has his take.
Have seen the same piece in several newspapers across Asia. Here is the one published by the New Strait Times (Malaysia)
(http://www.nst.com.my/node/61356)
China’s risky move
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Funny how this video lists China as the 4th largest country in area, but China always lists itself as the 3rd largest, ahead of the USA. This is largely because it includes all of its claimed and disputed area as its territory (eg, Kashmir, the South China Sea, etc.) as well as places over which it does not have direct sovereignty (eg, Taiwan).
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This might help Americans get an idea of how Macau and Hong Kong are related to China:
Are Hong Kong & Macau Countries?
(http://youtu.be/piEayQ0T-qA)
And I think the example of the USA handing Alaska back to Russia is an apt one.
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China’s Belt and Road Initiative into Central Asia and the Middle East is leaving it with a stark choice.
To Grant or Not to Grant Chinese Muslims Their Rights
(http://thediplomat.com/2016/04/to-grant-or-not-to-grant-chinese-muslims-their-rights/)
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In case people outside the region are still clueless about what is going on in the South China Sea, perhaps this video from Nov. 2015 can give you some background. It does not appear to be TOO biased.
The USA and Japan and most of ASEAN have become involved, as well as India. Australia has weighed in from time to time, but South Korea has tried to keep out of it. This may become the world’s flashpoint in 2016.
The case lodged by the Philippines to the International Court of Justice in the Hague could see a ruling by June.
(https://youtu.be/_gzC1OZgLSc)
WatchMojo News
10 South China Sea Dispute Facts – WMNews Ep. 54
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@ jefe
Thanks!
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@ jefe
Most of what I know about this comes from The Economist. The US media barely ever mentions it.
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@ jefe
What would recommend as a good, free online English-language news source about China?
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Abagond,
About once a month, I see an update article on CNN’s international page.
As I am in HK, I am now getting much of my English news from the following 2 sources:
http://www.ejinsight.com/
The online English website of the Hong Kong Economic journal, a chinese daily.
https://www.hongkongfp.com/
Hong Kong Free Press
just launched last year, after the Umbrella protest was over. It was largely in response to the purchase of the South China Morning Post (SCMP) by Alibaba, a mainland Chinese conglomerate. However, the government has been trying to block their reporters from getting press passes at events.
Although they are based in HK, and about 1/3 of the articles focus on HK news, about 1/4 of the articles are specifically about mainland China. Sometimes they are translations of articles in Chinese newspapers. I sometimes go back and read the original.
They sometimes get the anti-party weibo postings or articles in newspapers before they get scrubbed.
I no longer read the SCMP. It increasingly has been towing the party line and now does not write anything that might offend Beijing.
If you want some other sources, let me know. there is shanghaist.com about shanghai.
You should glance at the English language versions of the official Mainland China papers just for comparison.
The video about the South China sea above is from Nov 2015. There has been continuous development since then. I have become very alarmed, and very nervous about what might happen after the Hague ruling in the next month or two. Most pundits believe that the ruling will be generally negative towards China, but China has avowed to disregard it even though it has previously signed treaties to abide by their rulings. What is the next step?
They have stated many times that they are not afraid to go to war with the US, if that is what it takes. That would not be good for anyone.
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@ Jefe
Thank you! That is sad about SCMP.
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In light of Obama’s impending visit to Japan and Vietnam, you can easily access any US media to see that they all believe that one objective would be for the USA to discuss the lifting of the arms trade embargo to Vietnam and to discuss China’ militarization of the South China Sea. If Washington aligns with Hanoi on this issue, then we have just moved one step closer to armed conflict in the South China Sea.
Just 2 weeks ago, China refused US military carriers to dock in Hong Kong, a practice that has been common since the Vietnam war (albeit less common after 1997). Since each of those visits inserts millions of dollars into HK’s economy, local HK people will see it more of China strangling HK’s economy than it would be about protecting HK’s “national” interests.
Now the discussion is about letting US military carriers to dock in Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh. See how far we have come.
But the most interesting thing I see is when I read mainland Chinese media about this kind of event, such as this one:
(http://www.china.org.cn/opinion/2016-05/22/content_38507945.htm)
Time for Washington to self-question its Asia-Pacific policy
Japan was once a former bitter foe with the USA, just when China was one of its key allies. I don’t know why this term “traditional ally” is used unless it is to shore up opposition, as Japan has been a traditional foe to China for centuries, if not millennia.
That is one way of solving it, but it is not resolving anything. How it “should be resolved” has now come into question.
Who is trying to exploit illegal interests in the South China Sea?
The International Court of Justice in the Hague, to which China is a signatory, apparently did not consider it to be an invalid arbitration case. They stated clearly that it was a valid case. China has simply vowed to ignore it and disregard any ruling despite its obligation to abide by any ruling.
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learned a little chinese, it’s the new spanish!
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this chinese guy i met laughed about 9/11 and the vietnam but especially the korean war bothered him with chinese involvement and ground troops
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@v8driver
Just like the many white people that laughed at the ‘Fukushima Nuclear Meltdown’ victims or employees of San Francisco airport that made fun of the a plane coming from Asia that crash landed with many victims hurt or killed many of whom were children. I guess only white people lives matter right? Good one.
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Trump will try to smash the China-Russia-Iran triangle … here’s why he will fail
The hand of Henry Kissinger suggests US foreign policy will use a ‘divide and rule’ strategy with Beijing, Moscow and Tehran. But this could backfire, spectacularly …
By Pepe Escobar
http://www.scmp.com/week-asia/opinion/article/2064005/trump-will-try-smash-china-russia-iran-triangle-heres-why-he-will
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SCMP had been migrating to a more pro-Beijing stance under Robert Kuok since the 1997 handover, but since SCMP’s purchase by Alibaba in 2015, its Op-ed pieces dare not publish anything that might offend the CCP. For example, you will find nothing except castigation for the Hague ruling on the South China Sea artificial islands.
This journalist is a frequent contributor to the RT, and Iran press.
Of course we should read this journalist’s point of view and analysis, but we will not find any counterargument in the SCMP. We’ll have to look elsewhere.
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Right, like you can find tons of pro Beijing stuff in the NYT?
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@tbd i was feeling an ‘american’ viewpoint on that one, not so much ‘white,’ sure didn’t mean it like you took it.
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@ jefe
You make a good point about the SCMP. I looked through some of the articles when I followed Joe’s link. They were fairly fluffy and uncritical of China and its people. That tendency was most pronounced in the article about Thai attitudes toward Chinese tourists.
I have followed Pepe Escobar for some years now. I’m sure he has his biases. However, he is an excellent journalist and analyst of global trends. His writing is worth careful and critical reading.
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The Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal (among dozens of other western papers) include “China Watch”, a paid “supplement” by XinHua news agency, the same agency that broadcasts 24/7 in Times Square. The pro-Beijing voice is readily available to any mainstream US and other western media audience.
Maybe partially because of the NYT’s refusal to tow the CCP (Chinese Communist Party) line 100%, they are not only blocked in the PRC, but the CCP also forced Apple to drop the NYT app from the Apple Store last month (one of the last remaining ways to circumvent the firewall to access foreign media). The counterargument or counternarrative is not available in the PRC (and sadly, decreasingly so in HK, as evidenced by what happened to the SCMP).
The CCP dominates the China narrative in many African countries (and to a large extent, in Australia also). At least in the USA, you can find a variety of counter arguments and counter narratives.
The NYT did run an opinion piece a few months ago about this idea. It examines why the so-called “China model” may attract attention in “developing” nations. It also gives an argument why the US government should not be in the business of engaging in pushing counter narratives to foreign propaganda. It advocates a pluralistic narrative.
How to Counter China’s Global Propaganda Offensive
(https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/22/opinion/how-to-counter-chinas-global-propaganda-offensive.html)
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@Afrofem,
Nowhere did I suggest that anyone not read the analysis from that journalist. I am sure that he put some thought into his argument and he is quite renowned.
My point was more about the SCMP, and how it selects which arguments to publish and which not to. Op-eds are pro-Beijing and anti-US.
There has been such a big shake-up in the media in HK in the past few years, it is not funny. The moderate media has been punished (eg, firing editors) or attacked (eg, stabbing editors) for publishing things critical of the HK government or anything that might offend the CCP. The more anti-government media has been attacked relentlessly (eg, firebombing media owners’ houses) and squeezed out of any advertising sponsorship.
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It’s interesting what Chinese Muslims (Huizu) who’s been living their for centuries since approx, 960 A.D. think of importance of their religion (which sometimes differs from Islam in Asia and Middle East)
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@ jefe
I didn’t know about that level of violence against the HK press. Thanks for the info.
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The ultimate straw for me was when the 5 Causeway Bay Booksellers were abducted and disappeared for many months without a trace (for publishing books on the top CCP officials). They only appeared several months later making forced confessions on state run media. Four are still under detention in the Mainland. One (Lam Wing Kee) defected during a temporary visit to HK.
The UK has stopped short of stating that the PRC broke the Joint Sin0-British declaration.
But, now, the Republican-led Senate feels emboldened to do some things, eg, amend the 1992 HK USA relations act. Currently Marco Rubio is leading that cause. It should have been done 2-3 years ago, but Obama certainly would have vetoed it.
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Things are becoming worrisome in the new China of Xi Jinping.
First we heard about the disappearance of a famous actress, Fan Bingbing and now is the Interpol chief’s turn. Meng Hongwei, who is a Chinese citizen, disappeared!
These events cannot be taken lightly. China is rapidly becoming an economic superpower, whose reaches touch everywhere. With great power comes great responsibility and the new superpower must follow the rules that govern the modern world and not tend to exercise abuses, neither at home nor abroad.
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Aren’t you being a tad hysterical? Fan Bingbing is accused of tax evasion. Wesley Snipes was ‘disappeared’ by the US government for the same thing. As for Meng Hongwei, the verdict is still out on why he was ‘disappeared’. https://variety.com/2018/film/asia/china-fan-bingbing-fined-for-tax-evasion-1202966663/
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@ gro jo
No.
I haven’t said that those individuals haven’t committed any unlawful act, but in my book, normal states don’t make people disappear! What they do is to arrest them, if needed, accuse them of something and eventually open a criminal case that will bring them to trial. This is all done in the open, not covertly!
These are ominous steps in the wrong direction!
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Ok, I get it, you’d like a bit more drama. Nothing wrong with that. Where did you get the idea that they were interested in following the rules that govern the modern world? Are you saying that they are an abnormal state, and therefore, illegitimate? Are you sure that all modern states adhere to the same rules? Since 9/11, the USA has maintained secret prisons all over the world, is the US government equally illegitimate?
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lol how bout the president of interpol
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and competing internet protocols, no points for style trump either
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@ gro jo
You seem to not understand that the way those individuals were treated (disappearances) make one thinks that the state had something to hide and, maybe it was, in both cases, actually a settling of scores between two persons in China’s social hierarchy, instead of a proper application of the law as such!
That is typical of dictatorships, not societies following the rule of law.
Can you explain us why the Chinese state needed to make those individuals disappear? Because I cannot find any valid reason for that.
The behavior of the powerful lately worries me.
One superpower in the last two years makes a mockery of international agreements created to help lessen rates of climate change, rips economic agreements with other states instead of maintaining a civilized discussion about them, etc.
Another superpower makes brazen killing of individuals outside its own space of jurisdiction, disrespecting openly the sovereignty of other countries.
And to add to that already volatile mix, yet another superpower makes a top official of a respected international body disappear, as if this was a perfectly normal behavior.
All this are open acts of disrespect of the international order as we know it!
I thought that this new multi-polar international order was a bonus for mankind. But…
…There is a scent of aggressiveness in the air. The actual source of it is unknown.
In this way we must begin to fear the future!
Just an opinion.
P.S.:
There an African saying that states that: when two elephants are fighting, what suffers the most is the grass!
I wonder what will happen to the grass when instead of two we have three elephants with their adrenaline on the loose!
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The Chinese have their own ways of settling things. You seem to want everybody to adopt the Western system of doing things.” Ain’t gonna happen.” That way leads to expensive lawyers battling it out in court, very entertaining but not always good for “the grass”. People with money abuse the system. See the NYT’s investigation of the Trump criminal enterprise.
The Chinese way reminds me of a Japanese film I saw “Empire of Passion”. Two lovers kill the wife’s inconvenient husband, a cop goes to all kinds of trouble to find out what they did with the man’s body. After failing to get the truth using modern means, he resorts to the old tried and tested way. He has them arrested and beats the truth out of them. I guess China is reverting to the old methods, assuming they ever gave them up. Unless you’re planning to cheat the Chinese government, I don’t see that you have much to worry about.
For your information, great powers have always made a mockery of international agreements when they felt that doing so benefitted them.
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https://www.npr.org/2018/10/08/655573707/interpol-president-resigns-detained-in-china-over-bribery-charges
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@munubantu
I think you’ve forgot the fifth elephant, the Indian Republic, which, with all these four-or-more elephants, give us the good old chaturaji game for four players. I think climate change, overpopulation, human rights and economical crisis are more important.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaturanga
But we don’t have to worry about a WW3 until, say, the year 2200+ AD.
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@abagond: didn’t you just have the one pictogram for china there in the title there previously, 4 byte character or i guess 2 yet for simplified, anyone jump in here?
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http://www.chinese-word.com/data/0021.html
word, it is, i reckon,
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@v8driver
Thanks a lot! This one seems to be better than yellowbridge.com
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@ v8driver
The title should have two Chinese characters and it does, at least right now, one for Middle and one for Kingdom.
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An interesting take on modern society in China by an American citizen who lived there for a few years. See,
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=py7ew8zeIVE)
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https://amp.9news.com.au/article/83df9276-1d3f-4478-a57b-6251f3806436
Employees at world’s biggest iPhone factory in China ‘beaten and detained in protests’
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“Employees at world’s biggest iPhone factory in China ‘beaten and detained in protests’”
You’re ‘shocked’ because that never happens in the ‘West’?
“Law enforcement and companies’ militia, armed detectives and guards
Date Location Industry Type of dispute Workers killed by authorities Notes
August 8, 1850 Manhattan, NYC, NY Garment Strike 2 At least two tailors died as police confronted a street mob of about 300 strikers, mostly German, with clubs.[2] These deaths stand as the “first recorded strike fatalities in U.S. history”.[3]
July 7, 1851 Portage, New York Railroad Strike 2 Two striking workers of the New York and Erie Railroad were shot and killed by police officers. Strikers were dispersed the following morning by the state militia.[4]
July 20, 1877 Baltimore, MD Railroad Strike 10 During the Great Railroad Strike of 1877, first national strike in United States, National Guard regiments were ordered to Cumberland, Maryland, to face strikers. As they marched toward their train in Baltimore, violent street battles between the striking workers and the guardsmen erupted. Troops fired on the crowd, killing 10 and wounding 25.[5]
July 21–22, 1877 Pittsburgh, PA Railroad Strike 40 Great Railroad Strike of 1877: As militiamen approached and sought to protect the roundhouse, they bayoneted and fired on rock-throwing strikers, killing 20 people and wounding 29.[6][unreliable source?]The next day, the militia mounted an assault on the strikers, shooting their way out of the roundhouse and killing 20 more people.
July 21–28, 1877 East St. Louis, IL and St. Louis, MO Railroad, then general Strike up to about 18 1877 St. Louis general strike part of the Great Railroad Strike of 1877: The first general strike in the United States was ended when 3000 federal troops and 5000 deputized police had killed at least 18 people in skirmishes around the city.
July 23, 1877 Reading, PA Railroad Strike 10 In the Reading Railroad massacre, part of the Great Railroad Strike of 1877, a unit of the Pennsylvania State Police ventured into the Seventh Street Cut (a man-made railway ravine) to address a train disabled by rioters. They were bombarded from above with bricks and stones, harassed, and finally they fired a rifle volley into the crowd at the far end, killing ten.[7][8]
July 25–26, 1877 Chicago, IL Railroad Strike 30 Battle of the Viaduct, part of the Great Railroad Strike of 1877: Violence erupted between a crowd and police, federal troops, and state militia at the Halsted Street Viaduct. When it ended, 30 were dead.[9]
August 1, 1877 Scranton, PA Coal, Railroad Strike 4 Scranton General Strike, part of the Great Railroad Strike of 1877: The day after railroad workers conceded and returned to work, angry striking miners clashed with a 38-man posse partly led by William Walker Scranton, general manager of the Lackawanna Iron & Coal Company. When a posse member was shot in the knee, the posse responded by killing or fatally wounding four of the strikers.[10][11]
1877 Philadelphia, PA Railroad Strike 20–30 Great Railroad Strike of 1877: 30–70 injured in addition to those killed[12][unreliable source?]
1877 Buffalo, NY Railroad Strike 8 Great Railroad Strike of 1877: 8 killed[12][unreliable source?]
May 4, 1885 Lemont, Illinois quarry Strike 2 Troops of the Illinois state militia, pitted against “the most desperate and howling mob” of immigrant quarrymen and their women, throwing cobblestones, fired into the crowd. They killed two Polish strikers, Jacob Kugawa and Henry Stiller, and wounded several others with bayonets.[13]
May 3, 1886 Chicago, IL Machinery mfg. Strike 4 McCormick Harvester strike[12][unreliable source?]
May 5, 1886 Milwaukee, WI building trades Strike 15 Bay View Massacre: As protesters chanted for an 8-hour workday, 250 state militia were ordered to shoot into the crowd as it approached the iron rolling mill at Bay View, leaving 7 dead at the scene, including a 13-year-old boy. The Milwaukee Journal reported that eight more died within 24 hours.
November 5, 1887 Pattersonville, LA Sugar Strike as many as 20 10,000 sugar workers (90% of whom were black), organized by the Knights of Labor, went on strike. A battalion of national guardsmen supporting a sheriff’s posse massacred as many as 20 people in the black village of Pattersonville, St. Mary Parish, Louisiana.[14]
November 23, 1887 Thibodaux, LA Sugar Strike 37 or more estimated Thibodaux Massacre: Louisiana Militia, aided by bands of prominent citizens, shot at least 35 unarmed black sugar workers striking to gain a dollar-per-day wage and lynched two strike leaders. “No credible official count of the victims was ever made; bodies continued to turn up in shallow graves outside of town for weeks to come.”[15]
July 6, 1889 Duluth, Minnesota Laborers Strike 2 Several days of street riots and strikes by unorganized city laborers climaxed with an hour-long gun battle on Michigan Street with municipal police. Two Finnish strikers, Ed Johnson and Matt Mack, later died of their wounds. Another estimated 30 were wounded, and another young bystander was killed by a stray bullet.[16]
April 3, 1891 Morewood, PA Coal mining Strike 9 Morewood massacre: Miners struck the coke works of industrialist Henry Clay Frick for higher wages and an 8-hour work day.[17][18] As a crowd of about 1000 strikers accompanied by a brass band marched on the company store, deputized members of the 10th Regiment of the National Guard fired several volleys [19] into the crowd, killing 6 strikers and fatally wounding 3.[17]
July 6, 1892 Homestead, PA Steel Strike 9 Homestead Massacre: An attempt by 300 Pinkerton guards hired by the company to enter the Carnegie Steel plant via the river was repulsed by strikers. In the ensuing gun battle, 9 strikers and 7 Pinkerton guards were shot and killed.
July 1892 Coeur d’Alene, ID Hardrock mining Strike 4 Coeur d’Alene, Idaho labor strike of 1892: In July a union miner was killed by mine guards.[20] Company guards also fired into a saloon where union men were sheltering, killing 3.
June 9, 1893 near Lemont, Illinois Construction Strike 4 Dozens were injured and five were killed when quarrymen and canal workers clashed with replacement workers, local law enforcement, and two regiments of the Illinois National Guard during construction of the Chicago Sanitary and Ship Canal.[21] Four of the five were strikers: Gregor Kilka, Jacob (or Ignatz) Ast,[22] Thomas Moorski, and Mike Berger[21][23]
May 23, 1894 Uniontown, PA Coal Strike 5+ The Bituminous coal miners’ strike of 1894 was organized by the United Mine Workers in multiple mid-Western states on April 21, ending in late June. Among many other violent incidents in Illinois, Ohio, and elsewhere, five strikers were killed and eight wounded by guards near Uniontown, Pennsylvania on May 23.[24]
July 7, 1894 Chicago, IL Railroad Strike 30 or more estimated Pullman Strike: An attempt by Eugene V. Debs to unionize the Pullman railroad car company in suburban Chicago developed into a strike on May 10, 1894. Other unions were drawn in. On June 26 a national rail strike of 125,000 workers paralyzed traffic in 27 states for weeks. By July 3 a mob peaking at perhaps 10,000 had gathered near the shoreline in south Chicago embarking on several straight days of vandalism and violence, burning switchyards and hundreds of railroad cars. Thousands of federal troops and deputy marshals were inserted over the governor’s protests and clashed with rioters. The strike dissolved by August 2. Debs biographer Ray Ginger calculated thirty people killed in Chicago alone.[25] Historian David Ray Papke, building on the work of Almont Lindsey published in 1942, estimated another 40 killed in other states.[26] Property damage exceeded $80 million.[27]
1896–1897 Leadville, CO Silver mining Strike as many as 11 Leadville Miners’ strike: The union asked for a wage increase of 50 cents-per-day for those making less than $3-per-day, to restore a 50-cent cut imposed in 1893. The county sheriff and his deputies supported the strikers. Leadville city police took the side of the mine owners, recruited new officers from Denver, and “apparently kept up a near-constant campaign of harassment and violence against union members throughout the strike.” As many as six union men were killed during the strike, by strikebreakers, police, or under mysterious circumstances. Four more union men died when they joined about 50 strikers in a nighttime rifle and dynamite attack on the Coronado and Emmett mines; the attackers burned the Coronado shafthouse and killed a firefighter trying to extinguish the blaze.[28]
September 10, 1897 Lattimer, PA Coal mining Strike 19 Lattimer Massacre: 19 unarmed striking Polish, Lithuanian and Slovak coal miners were killed and 36 wounded by the Luzerne County sheriff’s posse for refusing to disperse during a peaceful march. Most were shot in the back.
October 12, 1898 Virden, IL Coal mining Strike 8 Virden Massacre: The Chicago-Virden Coal Company attempted to break a strike by importing black replacement workers. After union workers stopped a train transporting non-union workers and a tense standoff, eight of the union workers were killed when guards opened fire from the train. Six guards were also killed and 30 persons were wounded.[29]
started May 1899 Coeur d’Alene, ID Hardrock mining organizing drive 3 Coeur d’Alene, Idaho labor confrontation of 1899: Following a mass attack in which a non-union ore mill was destroyed by dynamite, and two men were shot and killed by union miners, President McKinley sent in U.S. Army troops, who, upon the order of Idaho officials, arrested nearly every adult male. About 1000 men were confined in a pine board prison surrounded by a 6-foot barbed wire fence patrolled by armed soldiers. Most were released within a week, but more than a hundred remained for months, and some were held until December 1899. Three workers died in the primitive conditions.[30][31]
June 10, 1900 St. Louis, MO Streetcar Strike 3 or more St. Louis Streetcar Strike of 1900: The Police Board swore in 2500 citizens in a posse commanded by John H. Cavender, who had played a similar paramilitary role in the 1877 general strike. On the evening of June 10, men of that posse fatally shot three strikers returning from a picnic and left 14 others wounded. Between May 7 and the end of the strike in September, 14 people had been killed.
July 3, 1901 Telluride, CO Mining Strike 4 About 250 armed striking union miners took hidden positions around an entrance to the Smuggler-Union mine complex, and demanded that the nonunion miners leave the mine. One striker and two strikebreakers died in the ensuing gunfight. The strikers were more numerous and better-armed, and after several hours, the strikebreakers agreed to surrender, and assistant company manager Arthur Collins agreed to stop work at the mine. The following year, Collins was killed by a shotgun fired through a window into his home.[32]
July 30 through October 2, 1901 San Francisco, CA Multiple Strike 2 Waterfront workers struck beginning July 30, an action that triggered sympathy strikes from bakers, sailors and other sectors. The city was in a commercial standstill by late August, with hundreds of ships stacked up in the bay unable to unload, while a violent struggle played out on the streets. Four were killed (of whom two were strikers), and some 250 were wounded.[33][34]
July 1, 1902, and October 1, 1902 Pennsylvania Coal Strike at least 2 The Coal Strike of 1902 in Pennsylvania caused about eight known casualties, two of them confirmed as strikers. On July 1, Coal and Iron Police guarding a Lehigh Valley Coal Company colliery in Old Forge were attacked by nighttime gunfire. The guards returned fire, and the next morning immigrant striker Anthony Giuseppe was found dead by a gunshot outside the site.[35] On October 9, a striker named William Durham was loitering near a non-striker’s house, which had been partly destroyed by dynamite the previous week, when a soldier ordered him to halt. He refused, and the soldier shot and killed him.[36]
February 25, 1903 Stanaford, West Virginia Coal Strike 6 In the so-called Battle of Stanaford a volunteer armed posse of 30 led by federal, county and labor detectives conducted a dawn raid against a houseful of black striking coal miners, shooting three of them to death. Another three white strikers were also killed in related violence.[37]
June 8, 1904 Dunnville, CO Hardrock mining Strike 1 Colorado Labor Wars: In December 1903, the governor declared martial law.[38] The Colorado National Guard, under Adjutant General Sherman Bell, took the side of the mine owners against the miners. Bell announced that “the military will have sole charge of everything …” and suspended the Bill of Rights, including freedom of assembly and the right to bear arms. Union leaders were arrested and either thrown in the bullpen, or banished.[39] The Victor Daily Record was placed under military censorship; all WFM-friendly information was prohibited. On June 8, 130 armed soldiers and deputies went to the small mining camp of Dunnville, 14 miles south of Victor, to arrest union miners. When they arrived, 65 miners were stationed behind rocks and trees on the hills above the soldiers. One of the miners shot at the troops, who returned fire. There were 7 minutes of steady gunfire, followed by an hour of occasional gunfire. Miner John Carley was killed in the gunfight. The much better-armed soldiers prevailed, and arrested 14 of the miners.[40][41]
April 7–July, 1905 Chicago, IL Garment mfg., Teamsters Strike as many as 21 1905 Chicago Teamsters’ strike: Riots erupted on April 7 and continued almost daily until mid-July. Sometimes thousands of striking workers would clash with strikebreakers and armed police each day. By late July, when the strike ended, 21 people had been killed and a total of 416 injured.[42][43][44]
April 16, 1906 Windber, PA Coal mining Strike 3 Two weeks into a strike by as many as 5000 miners against the Berwind-White Coal Company, the striking miners held a large meeting, at which an infiltrator from the company was discovered. The resulting disturbance led to the arrest and jailing of several miners. A large group assembled at the jail to bail out those arrested, but the sheriff refused to release them. When a brick was thrown at the jail’s window, private armed guards hired earlier in the strike by the company opened fire on the crowd, killing three miners (Steve Popovich, Matus Tomen, Simeon Vojcek), fatally wounding a 10-year-old boy, and wounding 18 others.[45]
February 19, 1907 Milwaukee, WI Ironworking Strike 1 Strike leader Peter J. Cramer of the International Molders Union was targeted and severely beaten by “labor detectives” hired by Allis-Chalmers. He died of his injuries on December 10, 1907. His attacker was tried for assault, his wife reached an out-of-court settlement with Allis-Chalmers, and the killing exposed a pattern of armed intimidation of strikers.[46]
May 7, 1907 San Francisco, CA Streetcar Strike 2 to 6 San Francisco Streetcar Strike of 1907: As the strike loomed, United Railroads contracted with the nationally known “King of the Strikebreakers”, James Farley, for four hundred replacement workers. Farley’s armed workers took control of the entire streetcar system. Violence started two days into the strike when a shootout on Turk Street left 2 dead and about 20 injured. Of the 31 deaths from shootings and streetcar accidents, 25 were among passengers.
December 25, 1908 Stearns, KY Coal organizing 1 On Christmas Day U.S. Marshals battled a number of union organizers at the McFerrin Hotel in Stearns as they sought to arrest Berry Simpson. The hotel was set ablaze by order of the marshal,[47] leaving the hotel burned out, many wounded, and two shot dead: Deputy U.S. Marshal John Mullins and organizer Richard Ross. The employer was the Stearns Coal Company, and the organizers attached to the United Mine Workers.[48]
May 1, 1909 Great Lakes region Maritime workers Strike 5 Three maritime unions, primarily the Lake Seamen’s Union, struck a multistate Great Lakes shipping cartel called the Lake Carriers’ Association. By late November 1909 five union members had been “shot and killed by strikebreakers and private police.” [49] The difficult and fruitless strike dragged on until 1912.
August 22, 1909 McKees Rocks, PA Railroad Strike 4 to as many as 8 Pressed Steel Car strike of 1909: At least 12 people died when strikers battled with private security agents and Pennsylvania State Police mounted on horseback.[50] Eight men died on August 22, including 4 strikers. By the time the rioting was over, a dozen men were dead and more than 50 were wounded.
March 9, 1910 – July 1, 1911 Westmoreland County, PA Coal mining Strike 6 (plus 9 miners’ wives)[51] Westmoreland County coal strike of 1910–1911: 70 percent of the miners were Slovak immigrants. Employers used force to intimidate striking miners, partially paying the cost for the Coal and Iron Police, local law enforcement and the Pennsylvania State Police.
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wow, lots to read, thanks, bro!
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we can go toe to toe like this, hopefully the captain will come back to the bridge of the mothership soon
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We don’t need the captain, all we need is to agree on the fact that you are being bombarded with all this protest porn because the CPC didn’t kill millions of their citizens as Trump-Biden did for the sake of making money. Herd immunity kills, let’s see how many Americans will die this year.
As for the captain, he is like you, in thrall to ‘democratic’ propaganda to the point that he invented a ‘massacre’ in 1989. People are starving and killing themselves? Care to put a number on these claims? “China Risks 1.6 Million Deaths in Virus ‘Tsunami’ If Covid Zero Is Abandoned: Study Death toll could reach 1.6 million if spread isn’t contained WHO chief calls on China to rethink its zero-tolerance policy”
When the number of suicides and starving people surpass that number, I’ll take your ‘concerns’ seriously.
Protests will be handled the way it is handled in all nations on earth with real governments. A mixture of police brutality and sops.
For ‘moralist’ of your caliber, it’s surprising to see you in agreement with the following quote attributed to Stalin:” ‘If only one man dies of hunger, that is a tragedy. If millions die, that’s only statistics’ in Washington Post 20 January 1947″
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@grojo i see foxconn has a union even, wait one please
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v8driver, I see you failed to put numbers to your worries about starvation and suicides in China, why is that?
Foxconn workers seem to have fared better than US railway workers who can’t get sick leave and are worked to exhaustion. Foxconn coughed up the money they promised and the workers left without doing a scrap of work! Railway workers were ordered to stay on the job without getting what they wanted. What kind of totalitarian dictatorship is this?
I like this back and forth but you need to up your game. Junior high school anti-communist propaganda won’t cut it.
The job of government is dealing with statistics, not individual tragedies. That rule applies regardless of what that government calls itself. Railway workers dropping dead due to exhaustion is a tragedy for their families and friends and a statistics of lower worth than keeping the economy humming.
Be well.
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@grojo, still a bit busy over here atm; however, the tangent was the foxconn union and working conditions and people just bailing out, an american union would have probably raised a strike, please define ‘american railway workers.’
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“please define ‘american railway workers.’” Are. You. Joking! Who are you quoting, I didn’t write ‘american railway workers.’? Apparently, the plight of workers interest you only when it affects foreign competitors of the USA. I’ll humor you by linking to the following articles: (https://apnews.com/article/biden-politics-pete-buttigieg-strikes-congress-c95510555dcd4cdc2d839e61d1195b06)
(https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/12/01/pers-d01.html)
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@grojo i’m really pressed for time lately so sorry for the scattershot reparte, b.) ‘Railway workers dropping dead…’ by which i assume you mean ‘maintenance’ workers of track, equipment, signaling, etc… i did see some recent arguments in the msm regarding your overworked proposal but i’m pretty sure most of those in that category are unionized and well paid.
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@grojo junior high school anti chinese propaganda lol
just another struggle session with you
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denunciation_rally
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the crudest of methods ostensibly in the furtherance of the loftiest goals.
isn’t cpc elite status a tautology now, hypocrisy at best, the super bourgeoisie, pretty much tsar like, at least we have some what open media
i did like that wsws article, however
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“b.) ‘Railway workers dropping dead…’ by which i assume you mean ‘maintenance’ workers of track, equipment, signaling, etc… i did see some recent arguments in the msm regarding your overworked proposal but i’m pretty sure most of those in that category are unionized and well paid.”
Being “well paid” means that the work conditions don’t matter? You’d make a fine model worker, a regular John Henry. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Henry_(folklore))
“@grojo junior high school anti chinese propaganda lol
just another struggle session with you
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denunciation_rally”
An unequal struggle session since you only spout infantile nonsense. In this debate you’ve expressed your views and I mine I haven’t asked you to change a thing, all I’ve done is show the inadequacy of your claims. I’m still waiting for you to tell me how many people committed suicide or starved to death due to the zero COVID policy. The abandonment of said policy is likely to cause 1.7 million deaths according to some estimates. It is to the CPC’s credit that they tried to resist making such sacrifice to Mammon.
“the crudest of methods ostensibly in the furtherance of the loftiest goals.
isn’t cpc elite status a tautology now, hypocrisy at best, the super bourgeoisie, pretty much tsar like, at least we have some what open media
i did like that wsws article, however”
Not sure what you’re about. Jack Ma’s fate indicates to me that the CPC elite is a Bonapartist regime balancing between the interests of the masses and the bourgeoisie. Since you ‘liked’ the WSWS article, does that mean you’ll support their struggle? If you are so inclined you might benefit from reading this article written by Trotsky in 1935. I won’t hold my breath. (https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1935/02/ws-therm-bon.htm)
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also? just to trim some overhead vis a vis sneakiness i guess the takeaway is the foxconn union was prey to the analogous concept of ‘federal authorities,’ sort of what the wsws article was accusing american lawmakers of doing ie not protecting workers rights and certainly i don’t they get paid well at all at foxconn to pick pack n ship those spiffy iphone 14 pro maxes so maybe a different article?
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my comfort level is $45 an hour on 1099
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https://amp.scmp.com/tech/big-tech/article/3198868/foxconn-raises-hourly-rate-shenzhen-us330-after-zhengzhou-covid-19-lockdown-dents-iphone-production
dude!
“Foxconn raises hourly rate in Shenzhen to US$3.30 after Zhengzhou Covid-19 lockdown dents iPhone production”
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https://www.computerworld.com/article/3682144/apple-accelerates-plans-to-move-more-manufacturing-out-of-china.html
“Apple accelerates plans to move more manufacturing out of China”
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https://nypost.com/2023/02/11/norad-monitoring-possible-spy-balloons-nearing-us-airspace/
this is getting kinda crazy, 2 down 2 more en route?
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Duck and cover. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMnKNHNfznE)
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkYl_AH-qyk)
Good times.
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it is truly gettin wierd
https://www.sciencealert.com/ominous-green-lasers-shot-over-hawaii-didnt-come-from-nasa-satellite-after-all/amp
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“it is truly gettin wierd
https://www.sciencealert.com/ominous-green-lasers-shot-over-hawaii-didnt-come-from-nasa-satellite-after-all/amp”
It’s weird that China should monitor air pollution!?
I hate to say it but you are sounding a little paranoid. Maybe you should worry about SFERA and Hog weed (Borschevik in Russian) a bit more?
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Link for the prior comment:(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L1kg06srG8)
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(https://www.facebook.com/V8Driver/posts/pfbid0nEeyv9LGXbEDfrGW6e3XEMfevSjmSa2UBJ3TB7Qaryk82W3oWS4xAqAkfe1g6XJel)
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(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnXu2xGwJRo)
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