Sally Hemings (1773-1835) was a slave woman of Thomas Jefferson, the third American president. She was a maid at Monticello, his estate. It seems she had at least one of his children, but probably as many as six.
This was going on while he was president. Although it happened after his wife died, marriage was out of the question in those days: he was a white European, she was one-fourth black African.
Why it seems likely:
- Her children believed it. They looked like him.
- Jefferson freed them. He freed only six of his 267 slaves. Four were her children.
- Jefferson was away from Monticello two-thirds of the time and yet was always at Monticello at just the right time when her children were conceived.
- DNA tests show that at least one of her sons was a blood relation of the Jeffersons, most likely (though not necessarily) of Thomas Jefferson himself.
Reasons for doubt:
- The story was first planted in newspapers by his political enemies when he was president.
- His white children said it was impossible.
- Jefferson made no clear reference to Sally Hemings as anything other than a slave. He never freed her.
Jefferson himself never said whether it was true or false.
A year after he died Sally Hemings was valued at $50 (40 crowns). A year later his daughter Martha gave Hemings “her time”. She was free in all but name.
We have no pictures of Sally Hemings.
- One slave said she was “mighty near white, very handsome, long straight hair down her back.”
- Jefferson’s grandson said she was “light coloured and decidedly good-looking.”
She may have looked like Jefferson’s wife: some say the two were half-sisters.
She was three-quarters white. Her mother’s mother came from Africa as a slave. It seems her other three grandparents were white. Her name comes from her mother’s father, an English sea captain named Hemings.
She looked after Jefferson’s two daughters, Mary and Martha. This brought her overseas when Jefferson was in France.
She was in France with Jefferson from 1787 to 1789, from about age 14 to 16. She learned French, the harpsichord and probably needlework. Some say this was when it all started.
In France she was free: the law did not allow Jefferson to keep slaves. She became a paid servant, as did her brother, who became a good French cook. They both came back to America with Jefferson.
Her children:
- 1790: Tom, boy – not in Jefferson’s records!
- 1795: Harriet, girl – died at two
- 1796: Edy, girl – died as a baby
- 1798: Beverly, boy
- 1801: Harriet, girl
- 1805: Madison, boy
- 1808: Eston, boy
Jefferson was president from 1801 to 1809.
In 1998 DNA tests were done on Tom’s and Eston’s descendants. Tom is not a blood relation of the Jeffersons (even though he looked like one), but Eston is.
Jefferson freed her last four children, so Madison, Harriet and Beverly are probably his too. All but Madison moved far away and passed into white society.
We do not know if she could write. “The Diary of Sally Hemings” has yet to be discovered…
See also:
- Toure on sexually heroic slave women – huge debate in the comments on whether Hemings was raped.
- Jefferson
- Monticello
- West Ford – said by some to be George Washington’s black son
- One Drop Rule
- crowns
Abagond 
Thomas Jefferson plays footsie with his house slave and lover, Sally Hemings and he really did had children, with Sally Hemings.
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That’s right. Sally and Tom did have children and that they did leave plenty of modern day descendants. It seems to me that the elitist Jefferson club and some white Americans want to deny that their beloved president fell in love with Sally Hemings and produced children whom they raised together.
Let’s open up abou the real past, not the contrived one.
Steph
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“Jefferson made no clear reference to Sally Hemings as anything other than a slave. He never freed her.”
You should read “The Hemingses of Monticello”. Fascinating book on the subject.
It’s true that he made no reference to Sally but that’s exactly what is so conspicuous. In his letters he often refers to her siblings (who were his most trusted servants) but rarely to her, even though she lived in his bedroom. It was her job to take care of his clothes, so it made sense that she slept in his closet. Umm…. yeah right.
They also have copies of letters from his closest friends and relatives that discuss interracial relationships in great depth (and sometimes provoking) but his answers are always very non-committal and he’s always trying to change the subject.
And his political enemies did spread the rumor but he never commented on it, not even to refute it. He just clammed up and tried to stay out of public view until the storm calmed down. His friends also did not refute it. They all just remained silent.
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This country is full of hypocritical premises from Thomas Jefferson’s mythology and descendents to the truth of Strom Thurmond’s recently revealed mulatto daughter. Countless numbers of “black males” have died (been lynched, murdered, etc.) because of a reactionary guilt to the rape of black women turned into an irrational paranioa over the “fate” of the “delicate flower of white womanhood”. This is also a farce.
They were trying to protect something that did not exist: the chaste southern white woman, above reproach, pure as the driven snow!! Ha!! The sexual depravity that went on in the deep south during slavery from both white men and women towards blacks is astounding. Most modern whites would be shocked and confused by the actual behaviour versus what the mythology handed down represents. Their forebears were duplicitous, in this respect. There are southerners to this day who still are under these mistaken impressions of the past!!
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I highly doubt that Jefferson raped Hemmings. She could have left him in France. She had plenty of opportunity. IIRC, one of her brothers did precisely that.
Y’know, you can’t kill a myth by flipping it on its head, Nomad. You can’t kill the southern myth of white female purity by pretending that every black woman kept her legs primly crossed until she married a black man – unless, of course, she was raped.
Rape occurred in slavery days, yes. Structural and personal coercion and odd forms of prostitution also occurred – coerced or no. And, finally, some small group of men and women did indeed love each other across race lines, as much as a racist society wopuld let them.
For better or for worse, Hemmings and Jefferson seem to fall into that last category.
By the way, I’m reading “Miscegenation” and the first chapter is all about this case and the attempts to smears Jefferson by using Hemmings. Some of the stuff that was written was absolutely foul. For Jefferson to admit that he was having sex with Hemmings at that time would have been political suicide. It’s no wonder he shied away from the topic as much as he could.
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I believe this story. My great, great grandfather is, Joseph Emerson Brown, the Civil War Governor of Georgia, but I do not know who my slave grandmother was, I assumed my great granfather, Andrew Brown, was sold after my slave grand mother gave birth to him. It is so sad how slave masters were able to do this and destroy families.
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As a dominican, I find very strange that most of the americans refer to Sally Hemings, for example, as “black”, even when she was genetically, 75% white, or stating it differently, 3 of her 4 grandparents were white.
An actual example being the President of the USA, whom everybody calls “black” when he is 50/50.
It seems to come from the “drop of blood rule” wich is extremely racist in my view. A person shouldn´t be forced to choose one color, forgetting about the other branches of ancestry.
To us race is not so divisive, and, as we are almost entirely of mixed race, being black or white is a non issue. As a matter of fact we generally call ourselves “indio”, wich is, admittedly unacurate from a technical point of view, but reflects that we don´t give a damn about it, it´s all the same. Light colored should be “indio claro” and darker “indio oscuro”. Whatever the case, we have presidents in all shades since the beggining of the Republic (1844), and that is not a campaign theme. Hope that some day that be the case for all and the dream of MLK becomes true.
I like this site. Excellent argumentation and very well presented. Congratulations.
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@Mike,
I totally understand where you are coming from. I think in the US, race is a much more contentious issue than it is anywhere else in the world. For instance, if Obama was president here the media would go on and on celebrating how mixed race he was, but in America its like he is black black black LOL. not that being black is bad since I am myself, but the fact that he is both seems to escape both black and white people there. But I do not understand everything that goes on in America. Btw i live in Merrie England
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@Mike
South American or Caribbean Dominican?
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Mike the Dominican is a scream, since when was the Dominican republic enlightened about race? Dominicans like Haitians hold a reverse one drop rule on race, i.e. if you have one drop of white blood you are “superior” to a pure black. I fail to see how that’s better or less racist than the North American version.
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@Thaddeus. You highly doubt he raped her in France because your cognitive dissonance is kicking in . The truth makes you uncomfortable so question why a 14 to 16 year old teenager did not “just leave him” .Then you mention “Structural and personal coercion and odd forms of prostitution” . You serious? So free white men had to coerce black women and girls who were considered property? Could they protest the sexual advances of white men? Then you tell us ahh they were in love. How sweet. He loved her so much he never mentioned her of freed her. Thanks for educating us o wise white man . We shol is glad you her sur.
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first of all, to all the non-americans: Sally Hemmings was/is black. End of Story. President Obama is black. I personally adhere to the one drop rule; if it was good enough for my ancestors, it is good enough for me. And, black folks did not invent the “one drop” rule. WHITES did it so they can enslave their own children and continue to sell and harrass blacks, even “blacks” who were white!
“White” blacks still get discrimination thrust upon them, and have racist remarks against them. Damn straight.
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And, to all you who would deny the story, Jefferson raped Hemmings. She was a child, so he was a child molester too. What the hell was she gonna do, say “no” to his rape? She had no power, and if she did resist, he could have sold her children, killed them and her, etc. What the hell? People want to believe that the person who said “all men are created equal” could not have been wrong. By his mere words / actions he was wrong; he was a liar, rapist, child molester, and a pathethic hypocrite!
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“first of all, to all the non-americans: Sally Hemmings was/is black. End of Story. President Obama is black. I personally adhere to the one drop rule; if it was good enough for my ancestors, it is good enough for me. And, black folks did not invent the “one drop” rule. WHITES did it so they can enslave their own children and continue to sell and harrass blacks, even “blacks” who were white!
“White” blacks still get discrimination thrust upon them, and have racist remarks against them. Damn straight.”
But it wasn’t good enough for your ancestors and neither was slavery.
If it was invented so whites could enslave their children, why would you want to continue it?
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No, slavery was not a great thing nor was it a great thing to harm children. I am not, nor would I want to, continue that. However, Black is great, powerful, and beautiful. It seems no one “wants” to be black, even some misinformed blacks!
Well, I am black, love it, and everything about it. I love my hair, nose, buttocks, and boobs. Yes indeed!!!!!!!
Shame to say, I have some (shudder) white blood in me too, due to my grandmothers being raped and abused. BUT MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT:
I AM BLACK!!!!!! And if that one drop gives one an advantage to being black, then so be it.
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And, I am sick and tired of hearing the “they were in love” story. What the helm? could she tell him: “get your white ass out of my bed?” could she “F” him up whenever he touched her? I hate that “love” story when the woman had no choice!
These are the lies being told so that the white man does not look bad, and looks like the “hero”. I’ll bet she wanted to kick his ass many a day.
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Sally Hemmings indeed was one of many women enslaved who were not allowed to say no …the consequences would be grave….and yes they did have children – agian not her choice. Thomas Jefferson was one of many who lived the tradition of the white master with all the power……..America wake up he was one of many powerful men who lived like this…probably even George Washington too.
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She was personal property.
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That love story mess is probably the whitewashed version.
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@Mary
I agree with you on this. This woman had no say in her life at all because she was a slave of Thomas Jefferson. Thomas Jefferson was a hypocrite and a perverted slave owner and that is the truth.
I do believe that Thomas Jefferson fell in love with Sally Hemmings.
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I am enjoying the book “Before The Mayflower” There is a chapter that describes Sally Hemings, Jefferson had mistresses, and Hemings was his favorite. Light skinned and attractive, the narrative goes on to say she played an important role in several political campaigns. She was a favorite slave and a mystery woman. This chapter also goes on to tell that Ben Franklin crossed the color line as well. He was very open in his relationship with black women. According to Carter G. Woodson. But I am not shocked or surprised by this. I am really enjoying this book as well. Learning about the author of the Declaration of Independence. It’s interesting.
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This reminds me of the film “Jefferson In Paris” starring Thandie Newton and Nick Nolte, Will have to watch it again.
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Analysis shows a match between the Jefferson male line and a descendant of one of Hemmings’ children, Eston Hemmings. Such analysis can not, however, show which Jefferson may have been involved. The evidence strongly suggests it was Thomas’ younger brother Randolph. For one thing, Randolph was well-known to socialize with slaves whereas Thomas did not. For another, Randolph was at Monticello at the time Eston was conceived. And, finally, three of the Hemings children were given names from the Randolph family.
Thomas privately denied paternity but never mentioned it publicly. He couldn’t deny it publicly without pointing the finger at his brother. He had too much integrity for that. So he left it as an unfounded rumour. He did, however, publicly deny it in a roundabout way. Before he died, he told a reporter the ONLY allegation made against him that was true was that he once hit on a friend’s wife when he was young.
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“Before he died, he told a reporter the ONLY allegation made against him that was true was that he once hit on a friend’s wife when he was young.”
– – –
Well, if he said it to a reporter, then of course it must be the truth! After all, Thomas Jefferson could not tell a lie. Umm, wait…I got that wrong: it was only George Washington who could not tell a lie!
Hmm. You know what? Thomas Jefferson actually could’ve been lying through his teeth after all!
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“he had too much integrity for that”
WHAT THE HELL???? The man who wrote:
“We hold these truths, to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator, with certain unalienable rights. That among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness”
OWNED SLAVES. WHERE THE HELL IS THE INTEGRITY???? IN ADDITION, HE RAPED A YOUNG GIRL, SALLY HEMINGS.
Give me a break!
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He made no reference because he regarded the accusation to be beneath contempt and refused to dignify it with an answer. The genetics show it could have been any of 19 other individuals in the Jefferson line. To think it was Thomas is merely projection of those willing to buy into this preposterous belief.
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People will say anything to absolve Jefferson of his crimes.
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^ Wow. Dude, this is not funny…at all.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
You are making a joke out of rape.
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^Obviously, this behaviour has nothing to do with one’s DNA.
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@ Lord of Mirkwood
I did not read the whole thing, but I read parts of it. But that was ages ago.
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[…] White man’s whore, and was seen as despicable. The comparisons to Sally Hemings, an enslaved quadroon woman, who was likely forced into a sexual relationship with President Thomas Jefferson, her […]
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I find it curious that black on white rape today is upwards of 20,000 per year whereas the reverse is statistically 0. Yet 200 yrs. ago white men were raping black woman at epidemic rates.
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I am disgusted with Thomas Jefferson. After his wife died, he could have remarried. Sally Hemings had no rights. She was a teenager when she went
To France. Why didn’t Jefferson remarry? His daughters would have had a
mother or a role model? Thomas Jefferson was no great news man to. Me.
He. Had no more shame than an alley cat. Sally Hemings would have been better off to have stayed in France.
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Thomas Jefferson had no need morals. If Sally Hemings was his mistress, he’s
No different than some other presidents. They all NB know how to cheat. If he
fathered any. children by Sally Hemings, he wasn’t thinking of them or his
Daughters by his late wife. He didn’t want it to get out, because his political
Career would be over. Somebody had to know what he was doing. How did he
Hide from a double life?
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@Mark Jeffrey Mode
“Thomas Jefferson was no great news man to. Me.
He. Had no more shame than an alley cat.”
So very true.
Reportedly, Jefferson’s wife and Sally Hemings were half sisters and resembled one another. As a slave owner, Jefferson got to have his cake and eat it too.
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he didnt hide a double lifem. Many knew of Sally Hemmings. one of his political opponents blabbed it all over town
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he was a child molester and a hypocrite
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Why didn’t Thomas Jefferson remarry???? He made promises to his Dying wife. When she was dead, he was free to remarry. Instead he used a Slave girl around
The age of one of his daughters for sex. If it was known about, be why didn’t
they impeach him. Their was no laws to protect slaves. Thomas Jefferson
had no morals. I can’t believe that his own family didn’t know, that there wasn’t
Something going on. White slaves waiting on the Jefferson family.
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Why didn’t they throw him out of the election, like these present day presidential
Candidates? He’s no better than JFK and Clinton. Clinton should have been kicked out of the white house on his rear end along with Monica. His wife, if she
Had any sense should have been divorced from him by now. Their daughter was old enough to make up her mind which needs parent, that she wanted to
Live with. John Edwards and Gary Hart got found out. Both of these candidates
got pulled out of the election. So Thomas Jefferson wrote the Delecration of
Independence, he wasn’t that great of a man when he had sex with a minor.
He had no shame. He should have been been kicked out on his rear end.
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Thomas Jefferson, a sack of turd in a cheap suit no matter how anyone tries to ‘explain’ his behaviour. A filthy diddler.
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How come men in powerful positions think, that they can do as they please, and
won’t be be found out? Somebody in the Jefferson Household had to know
what Thomas Jefferson was up to. Sally had to be shipped showing before the
Babies were born, and then they were said to look white. Thomas Jefferson
Wasn’t any different from his father in law. He kept Sally Jennings Mother
Pregnant. Betty had more than one baby. Her children were born slaves.
I can believe, that Martha and Mary couldn’t see their father in any of Sally’s
Children.
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@ Herneith
LOL! So true.
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Sally was said very to be be Thomas Jefferson’s wife’s half sister. Why did he leave remarry after. His wife died instead of making Sally his mistress. She was
A child, teenager. She didn’t think like an adult. A 14 year old young lady.
Thomas Jefferson makes me sick. Someone had to know what he was doing
With. A SALLY. Why didn’t Jefferson marry himself to a French Lady?
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The truly sad spectacle here is that you people are entitled to vote.
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I believe what happened to Sally Jennings was wrong. Thomas Jefferson is a
Disgust. The pervert should have been impeached because of his sexual crimes.. He wouldn’t admitted to what he had done. he was no different than
Some of the previous presidents. Grover Cleveland fathered a child out of wedlock, supposedly. Old Ben Franklin fathered a Son out of wedlock. Mother
Unknown. He and his wife had very a very common law marriage. Never married. All of his children were born born out of wedlock.
It disgusts’ me, that our Founding Fathers had no morals. Betty Jennings had
Been used sexually by her old master. He was a piece of trash. Betty’s children
Were brought up as slaves. They were never acknowledged as their father’s
Children. Thomas Jefferson was no different.
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Sally Hemings had no rights to her body. There was no laws to protect her.
I am a 56 year old man. If I had had sex with a teenage young lady, it would be
RAPE. Thomas Jefferson has disgusted me ever since, they dug up dirt on both him. He had two motherless daughters. He could have remarried. Yet he did
Not. There were and single women, that he could have courted. He married a
Widow. He made a promise to his Dying wife, that he kept, yet he had sex with
A minor. Sally didn’t know about what was on her master”s mind. She had no
Sex Education class. When she came to Virginia, she was pregnant.
Thomas be Jefferson never acknowledged Sally’s children as his. They were
Slaves working for their Daddy. Thomas Jefferson must have been thinking
about his political career. He is a disgust just like Clinton. Why didn’t they
Have their butts BC kicked out of the White House. They embarrassed their
Families and thus country.
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Thomas Jefferson had six white kids with his first white wife/partner Martha Wayles. It was out of labour that her wife died. He also had six kids with Sally Hemmings. Thomas Jeferson’s white daughter Martha Randolph hhad 12 white kids with some white guy Thomas Randolph. Clearly you could see that men at that time had no respect for women whether black, white or bi-racial. To them all women were baby-making machines.
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The problem with Sally was that maybe she was too young but Thomas Jeff. got paid in the end his white daughter became a 12-kid baby-making machine wonder.
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My Stepfather’s father, fathered nine children. My stepfather’s family was the poor set. My step grandparents didn’t finish High School. If I had been a woman, I would have. found away. To quit having babies.
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Men can also find a way to stop having kids. Why put the pressure on the woman only??? most of the time, it is the men’s fault
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@Karen
“most of the time, it is the men’s fault”—How so? Are we now faulting men for women’s legs spreading or are we calling it rape? Are we refering to that time period or more modern times?
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@ Sharinair …..we were speaking of Thomas Jefferson and ppl’s great great grandfathers, so I was speaking of past times…..I thought your common sense would prevail. oops my bad
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@Karen
Perhaps the lack of common sense here belongs to you. Others were speaking of Thomas Jefferson and the like, but you busted out with some random rant about men. It was common sense that lead me to ask questions. Sorry not sorry that your feelings were hurt as a lack of ability to grasp the basics.
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Oh and common sense would have lead you to speak in past tense and not present tense if you were indeed referring to the time of Jefferson.
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Thomas Jefferson makes. me sick.. Why didn’t he remarry to a respectable
White woman. He is. no different than the father in law. If he was sleeping
around with Sally, Why didn’t they impeach him??? The old bastard disgusts’
me.
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Why didn’t Thomas Jefferson have himself fixed??? There would been no mixed slaves, slave children to wait on Daddy.
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OFF TOPIC: grammar and spelling.
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Deleted 30 comments of insults and such between Karen and Sharina.
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aw….
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abagond
As such it shall be, but you also deleted her opportunity to prove where I have lied. Meh
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@ abagond: no proof needed. Words speak for themselves. (at least the ones spelled right)
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@Karen
Well if words speak for themselves then you had nothing.
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no”thing” knows nothing better than you
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@Karen
This from someone who did not know the definition of reply or fallacy and told 3 lies while claiming to be honest. 😂😂😂😂😋
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@Abagond
I see more deletions coming. Karen seems to believe insults make up for that failed knowledge.
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ha. this from someone who doesn’t have to teach you what they mean, nor does this someone have to prove anything to one so ignorant. Know what that word means??? can you spell it without help?
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failed knowledge? You should know. Your grammar and spelling sucks.
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“If I had been a woman, I would have. found away. To quit having babies.”
I don’t want to get involved in the argument between Sharina and Karen. But I did want to say that I do find Mark Jeffrey Mode’s comment above to be insensitive and unrealistic.
Neither Martha Jefferson nor Sally Hemings would have been likely to have had access to contraceptives, much less reliable ones. The best way available to them to control the number of children they had would have been to abstain from sexual relations until they wanted to have another child. But wives and slaves both had no legal right to their own bodies. Wives were supposed to obey their husbands, slaves to obey their masters — that meant they couldn’t refuse sex if he wanted it. Legally neither one had that right.
I don’t know when Mark Jeffrey Mode’s step-grandparents were alive, but it’s only been relatively recently that women have had access to a variety of different types of reliable birth control, that the purchase of contraceptives has not been illegal (even for married couples) in a number of states, and that marital rape has been recognized as a crime in legal statutes.
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@Karen
The mere fact that I had to teach you those things indicate that you have never involved yourself in a debate or intellectual conversation. The fact that you take so much offense to simple questions tells me you are not mature enough for the conversations that go on here.
When you make claims you set the bar for having to prove it. That is part of debating and if you can’t prove it then you simply fall back on fallacy by screaming ” I don’t have to prove anything to you.”
You calling me names doesn’t bother me. Doesn’t say anything about me either. It only speaks to your character.
I spell quite well without help, but as a word of advice. Abagond said spelling and grammar are off topic and if you keep going you will be banned.
The sad part is if abagond takes off topic all those things you will have nothing to say. That is something you should reflect on.
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Solitaire
I agree, the typical contraceptives were not, but I think mark may be referring to more drastic measure. Things that could get the women killed if you catch my drift.
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@ Sharina
I think I understand what you mean, but that was also illegal, not always easy to procure, not always successful with the methods used at the time, and extremely dangerous. Considering how often some women got pregnant in those days, we’d also be talking about undertaking that life-threatening risk many times during a woman’s child-bearing years. It wasn’t really a viable option for consistent long-term birth control over 30+ years.
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Not that I have to, but just to clarify for your dumb ass: When I was first speaking, I wasn’t even talking to you. If you “checked your facts” then you will see that you started with me. I know I have to tell you this over and over, cause somehow it just isn’t sinking in. You jumped in to someone else’s comment with your ASSinine sarcasm, and you were ignorant enough to believe I was gonna take your crap. That was a mistake (must I say it again??)
Perhaps if you learned to stay out of grown folks business, life would go smoothly for you. (Not that I really give a damn).
“an individual who can’t see “there” own fault…..” how can one quote all about “fallacies, dilemmas” etc but can’t write intelligently? You are nothing but a “cut and paste” junkie, who uses words of others to try to make yourself appear intelligent.
It’s not working, snakeinair
“Abagond said spelling and grammar are off topic and if you keep going you will be banned”,
ZOOM! hear that? its common sense flying by you. I don;t think that is what Abagond meant.
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@solitaire:
“we’ve come a long way, baby”
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@Karen
I already know you were not talking to me, but this is a forum. People respond to others all the time. You can’t just claim “I was not talking to you” as a means to excuse having an attitude. I already admitted several times that I responded to you, so repeating it is only for your clarification. Not mine.
” you were ignorant enough to believe I was gonna take your crap.”—I would like you to explain how asking you questions equates to taking crap? I typically hear this from people who have no clear answer or response and use anger to deflect or steer away from them.
“Perhaps if you learned to stay out of grown folks business, life would go smoothly for you. (Not that I really give a damn).”—Your not an adult because adults don’t handle discussions by calling names and throwing tantrums. Perhaps when you get past that you can be invited to the grown folks table.
““an individual who can’t see “there” own fault…..” how can one quote all about “fallacies, dilemmas” etc but can’t write intelligently?”—How a person writes does not dictate the knowledge they have on any given information. You are using false dilemma again. Plus I typically write loosely on blogs.
You are nothing but a “cut and paste” junkie, who uses words of others to try to make yourself appear intelligent.”—If I had copied and pasted then you could find that in google search. They are my words.
“It’s not working, snakeinair”—Your comment will be deleted. Abagond has policy on using people correct name.
“ZOOM! hear that? its common sense flying by you. I don;t think that is what Abagond meant.”—You are so hard headed it hurts. You need to read his comment policy. If he makes something off topic and you continue to engage in what he made off topic then you can be banned.
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@Solitaire
I’m a bit curious on how many women may have taken that route illegally? I was going to say are there records, but I would think not.
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karen is banned for repeatedly going off-topic.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/comment-policy/
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@Solitaire
I found this….
http://mashable.com/2015/06/07/early-birth-control/#A6U2R.9.akqH
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@ Sharina
I don’t think there are records from those times, at least not any that would be comprehensive because most women would have kept silent.
There has been some modern research, which as usual I can’t recall the sources off the top of my head, sorry. I do remember that in the 1800s there were a number of tonics advertised in women’s magazines as helping to balance an irregular cycle or bring on a tardy one; this is now believed by many scholars to have been code for inducing a miscarriage in the early stages of pregnancy. However, like many of the quack health tonics and miracle cures of the era, it is thought that these medicines were not very effective.
It was fairly well known that intensive and prolonged breastfeeding could provide contraceptive effects, but it was also fashionable for women of a certain class to keep their figure by handing their infant over to a wet nurse, thus losing any of the protective qualities. If I’m not mistaken, I believe that I have read on at least some large plantations, a few slaves served as wet nurses to free up the other slave mothers to go back to work quickly, which would have meant those mothers also got no contraceptive benefits from prolonged nursing.
I do remember that Fanny Kemble, a British actress who married an American plantation owner, wrote about the number of slave women who came to her with physical complaints concerning the reproduction system, many due to or worsened by too many pregnancies and child-bearing.
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@ Sharina
We cross-posted. I’ll take a look at that link, thanks.
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@Solitaire
“It was fairly well known that intensive and prolonged breastfeeding could provide contraceptive effects, but it was also fashionable for women of a certain class to keep their figure by handing their infant over to a wet nurse, thus losing any of the protective qualities.”—Now that I did not know. I really was always taught that it was good weightless.
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@ Sharina
It does help to drop the weight gain from pregnancy, that’s true.
Breast-feeding, especially on demand as opposed to strictly regulating feeds to certain times, affects the hormonal balance. A friend of mine who was following La Leche and breastfed for the first two years of her baby’s life didn’t have a period that entire time. Back in the old days, it was pretty common in most societies not to completely wean a child until they were at least two or three years old — which we now know helps boost the child’s immune system when it is at its weakest.
It isn’t a foolproof method, but it does work to a degree, especially during the first few months before beginning to introduce solid foods. It’s not very good on a woman’s body to get pregnant within a month or two of childbirth, so this may be nature’s way of preventing that. It also increases the baby’s chance of survival if the mother isn’t trying to feed a newborn while also nuturing a new fetus — the caloric expenditure to do both at once is immense.
I’ve seen a theory that the ultimate reason behind wet nurses becoming fashionable wasn’t keeping a youthful figure. Instead, this theory points out that royal and noble women’s primary purpose was to produce as many heirs as possible. If they didn’t breastfeed, they could get pregnant again that much quicker.
I’m trying to remember where I read it — possibly in one of Zitkala-Sa’s books — somewhere I read an account from the 1800s or early 1900s written by a Native American woman who said that among her people, the women would get together every so often and decide how many new babies would be good for the tribe over the next couple years and see who wanted to have a baby soon and who didn’t, and they would basically determine the fertility pattern for their entire group among themselves. I don’t remember if she said how they pulled this off, but there are certain herbs they might have used that have some effectiveness in controlling fertility.
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@ Sharina
I guess I should be more forthright. When I said women of a certain class chose not to breastfeed in order to keep their figure, what I meant wasn’t losing weight but instead to prevent stretching and elongating the breasts.
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@Solitaire
“It’s not very good on a woman’s body to get pregnant within a month or two of childbirth, so this may be nature’s way of preventing that.”—I sadly have encountered women who advocate it being safe to do this. What is scary is one of the women who has done this looks quite sickly and her baby belly never seems to go away.
“I’m trying to remember where I read it — possibly in one of Zitkala-Sa’s books — somewhere I read an account from the 1800s or early 1900s written by a Native etc.”—That actually sound like a very interesting read. If you remember where you read it please post it.
“what I meant wasn’t losing weight but instead to prevent stretching and elongating the breasts.”—It all turns out the same for me. So no worries.
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@ Sharina
“I sadly have encountered women who advocate it being safe to do this.”
That’s unfortunate and depressing. Although it is probably safer now than any other time in history, it’s still not a good idea. Many women before our time had their health absolutely destroyed by frequent child-bearing. It was a major issue for the women’s rights movement of the 1800s: to give women the ability to control their fertility in order to protect their own health and well-being.
“That actually sound like a very interesting read. If you remember where you read it please post it.”
If I find that passage, I’ll definitely post it. But whether or not it was from one of Zitkala-Sa’s books, I would still recommend reading them. She provides a fascinating description of traditional Plains Indian life from a woman’s standpoint. She was also an activist for Native American rights. She fought for full citizenship, suffrage, and civil rights while also insisting on the right to maintain traditional culture and Native languages.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zitkala-Sa
I did stumble across an interesting article about how the early suffragists were influenced by the Iroquois women who lived in the same vicinity.
http://www.feminist.com/resources/artspeech/genwom/iroquoisinfluence.html
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@ Sharina
Here are some books that might be a good place to start:
Birthing a Slave: Motherhood and Medicine in the Antebellum South – Marie Jenkins Schwartz
Laboring Women: Reproduction and Gender in New World Slavery – Jennifer L. Morgan
Contraception and Abortion in Nineteenth-Century America – Janet Farrell Brodie
The Moral Property of Women: A History of Birth-Control Politics in America – Linda Gordon (if I remember correctly, this book starts with the early or mid-1800s and goes up to the present)
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Also somewhat related: In 1855, a teenaged slave named Celia killed her master because
A) he would not stop raping her
B) he would not stop impregnating her
C) he kept insisting on sex when she was pregnant and ill from morning sickness
D) she had fallen in love with another slave who said he could not be with her as long as the master was having sex with her.
She was put on trial, convicted of murder, and executed.
Her story here:
http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/celia/celiaaccount.html
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@Solitaire
Sorry it is taking me so long to get back to this discussion. There is a topic I would like to bring up extensively and don’t want to half-a**** it. However, right now I have to write two peer reviews and while the subject matter is interesting I am uneasy about critiquing my classmates papers. I review myself harshly and doing that to them may not have me looking to favorably.
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@ Sharina
“Sorry it is taking me so long to get back to this discussion.”
No worries. I was just kind of adding sources as I thought and/or found them. Didn’t really expect a reply.
“There is a topic I would like to bring up extensively and don’t want to half-a**** it.”
You’ve got me curious now! I will keep an eye out for it, but take your time. School is more important.
“However, right now I have to write two peer reviews and while the subject matter is interesting I am uneasy about critiquing my classmates papers. I review myself harshly and doing that to them may not have me looking to favorably.”
Yuck, I feel for you. It’s always difficult to decide how to balance that. One piece of advice I’ve found useful is look for at least one thing to praise first; this helps to temper the critical part of the review, plus many people respond better to constructive criticism if the good qualities of their work are also noted. It gives them the sense that they’re halfway there instead of hopelessly sunk.
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@Solitaire
My post to Karen had a double purpose up above. When she brought up things being men fault, I did not then and still don’t think it was a matter of the past. I felt she held a lot of animosity towards men and this is something I have notice in growing trend with a certain types of black women.
Around the time that she posted this a FB friend of mine made a post stating (I am paraphrasing) “Bump BLM because a black man shot my brother and a black man left me to raise my daughter alone.” She, like many I am seeing, refuse to take responsibility for their parts in it and instead blame the men. They remind me of those crazy black males that blame black women for everything.
I was hoping to discuss why these types do not wish to acknowledge the roles they play. Another thing I ran into that brought me wanting to discuss this was, on a blog a man was stating why men “hit and quit”. Many of the women downed him, but secretly I agreed with him. He stated that women use sex thinking they have the best and have no substance. He was way more harsh, but man of the women said he is just a little boy that does not know what he want etc. Truth of the matter is too many women do use sex to get what they want and have nothing to offer.
Also this “he owes me” attitude I see from a lot of women is mind blowing. The “if your woman does this” she is the marrying type meme’s. Too many women take to being loyal to no good men with the idea that he will marry and then turn around and be mad when she ends up not being the one. Yet these women do not realize that they do similar for female friends and do not show much shock when they do not marry or be loyal to them.
Not saying men do not do this,but the pattern I am starting to see with some women is just crazy. I just want to understand why these women don’t see the damages of generational black men blaming simply leads to anger and hate and no responsibility for choices.
This might be all over the place, but let me know if clarity is needed.
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@ Sharina
I have a whole bunch of thoughts crowding into my head, but let me first ask for clarification on this statement:
“I just want to understand why these women don’t see the damages of generational black men blaming simply leads to anger and hate and no responsibility for choices.”
By “the damages of generational black men blaming,” do you mean the effects of centuries of white oppression on black men, or the effects of generations of black women blaming and ragging on black men?
Also, about Karen specifically: I’m really not sure what was going on with her or how she meant her original comment. I remember reading it (before you first replied to her) and thinking that it was along the lines of my opinion about Mark Jeffrey Mode’s comments but worded more harshly and with less clarity than I hope I would have done. And then Karen’s argument with you quickly became more about each other’s mental states, hypothetical medication, grammar skills, and education, which didn’t exactly help me to figure out Karen’s actual stance on the original topic (I didn’t see all of the comments before Abagond descended from the heavens and laid waste to them with his fiery sword, but I saw a substantial part of the original 30+ comments). I don’t know whether Karen had posted similar types of stuff here in the past; if so, you have more to base your judgment of her on than I do.
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@Solitaire
More along the lines of ” generations of black women blaming and ragging on black men?” Often times the women I speak of has a mother who was wronged by black men and she raises a daughter to put out that same anger. Now don’t get me wrong, I think there are some trash men out there, particularly the opposite of these women, but on many blog posts I see women that can’t except the reality of their own role.
I don’t know much about Karen. But her statement brought up a discussion that I really wanted to have. Challenge this idea of why it is the man’s fault and why women are refusing to acknowledge their faults. Not all, but the type I refer to.
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@ Sharina
I’m mulling over my reply. Fair warning: it’s going to be long.
I’ll try to post later today, when I have my thoughts more formulated.
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@Solitaire
I prefer it long. It just means it is thorough.
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@ Sharina
Just want to let you know I’m working on it still. The way the rest of the Labor Day weekend looks, I don’t think I’ll get it done before Tuesday at the earliest, sorry.
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Similar things happened in South Africa…many slave women had children with White men (who outnumbered White women in the early days of the Cape Colony). Their descendants are mostly the Cape Coloured people, but almost 5% of the Afrikaner genome comes from somewhere other than Europe. And yet, White Americans call White South Africans racist.
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