The Warsaw Ghetto (1940-1943) in Poland was the largest Jewish ghetto under Hitler. Nearly a half million lived there. Some were Romani (Gypsies). Some were Roman Catholics with Jewish roots. Most were sent to Treblinka. But for four glorious weeks in 1943 they held off the Nazi war machine in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.
In 1939, when Germans took over the city, they made every Jew wear a white armband with a large blue Star of David.
Under German rule Jews no longer had protection of the law:
- Crime against them went unpunished.
- Germans took all the money from their bank accounts.
- They took some of their homes and businesses.
- They threw many out of work.
- German soldiers would beat up or rob them in broad daylight.
Germans blamed Jews for crime and disease.
And then it got worse:
In 1940, to help fight crime and disease, the Germans sent every Jew they could find in the city and nearby regions to the ghetto. They walled them in and posted armed guards at the exits. An open-air prison.
There were 10 to 15 to a room. There was no electricity. There was not enough heat, food or water. A third did not have warm winter clothes. Disease tore through the ghetto – especially typhus. Close to 100,000 died of hunger and disease.
On July 22nd 1942 Germans started sending people out of the ghetto. Day after day thousands were put on trains and sent to Treblinka out in the country, to what Germans called a labour camp. They sent 265,000 in two months, leaving 70,000.
And then it got even worse:
Once people were sent to Treblinka no one ever heard from them again. Like they were dead or something. They sent spies: Treblinka was not a labour camp at all. Everyone was being killed!
Mordechai Anielewicz:
You must be prepared to resist, not to give yourselves up like sheep to slaughter.
The ghetto was deeply divided – Hasidim, communists, Zionists, assimilated Poles, etc – but enough forgot their differences to fight with Anielewicz. They smuggled in guns and set up hideouts.
In January 1943 the Germans came to send more people to Treblinka. No one wanted to get on the trains. Four days of street fighting followed. It took Hitler by surprise. He thought Jews were cowards.
On April 19th, on Passover eve, the day before Hitler’s birthday, Himmler sent in the SS, the paramilitary wing of the Nazi Party. He thought it would take three days.
The Jews fought a hit-and-run guerrilla war. The Germans fought back by burning down the whole ghetto, block by block. The Jews held out till they ran out of bullets 28 days later.
Some escaped through the sewers. The 56,000 who remained were rounded up (pictured above and at top) and either shot dead or sent to Treblinka.
Hitler then had the ghetto levelled.
Uprisings spread to other ghettos. There was even one at Treblinka itself later that summer, ending the mass killings there.
After the war they found tin boxes and milk cans buried under the ghetto. Inside was the history of the Warsaw Ghetto written down so that one day the world would know the truth.
See also:
- Emanuel Ringelblum: “Notes from the Warsaw Ghetto” – some of what was buried in those tin boxes and milk cans!
- Mary Berg: “The Diary of Mary Berg: Growing Up in the Warsaw Ghetto” – she lived through it all, even the uprising, and made it out alive, making it to New York.
- Leon Uris: “Mila 18″ (1961) – fictionalized account of the ghetto from 1939 onwards, particularly the uprising. Uris is thorough and faithful to the facts known at the time of writing. The huge advantage of this book is that he presents events from different points of view: Zionist, assimilated Jew, German Pole, Nazi, American journalist, etc. It also sets up “Exodus” (1958), his novel about the founding of Israel.
- “The Pianist” (2002) – a true story of the ghetto from the point of view of pianist Władysław Szpilman. He escaped but saw some of the uprising. Directed by Roman Polanski, who was sent to the Krakow Ghetto during that time. As far as I can tell, it is pretty faithful to the facts.
See also on this blog:
- the eight stages of genocide
- Holocaust denial
- Hitler
- Jews
- guerrilla warfare
- Gaza
- The Herero and Nama genocide – the genocide in Africa carried out by the Germans some 40 years before
- Japanese American internment - at the time of the Warsaw Ghetto, America was going down the same road with Japanese Americans
- Madison Grant - made anti-Semitism seem like the latest science. Hitler was a fan! Grant’s anti-immigration laws kept most Jews from coming to America after the 1920s
- If the Holocaust was black history - since White Americans are way less racist against Jews than blacks, their history is seen differently.
Abagond,
Have you ever read the book “Night” by Elie Wiesel? It gives a first hand account on what’s it’s like to be a Jew in Nazi Germany. There are moments that will stun you.
That part of Warsaw, where the ghetto was, is no longer, except for a bit of cleaned up wall, here and there, on Sienna Street, Walicow Street and Zlota Street.
The old Jewish Quarter in Warsaw is also no more: It’s a kind of big car park and grey apartment blocks and you’d never think it was what it was.
It’s not often said but the occupants of the ghetto were mostly Jews and the rest were Romani gypsies, originally from India. The ghetto was a place that had its own subsistence economy, run on child smugglers mostly who could scoot under the barriers.
I saw a few Jews in Poland. Anti-Jew feeling is still there, of course.
Before the ghetto, I wonder if Warsaw’s Jewish was really like this 1939 footage:
i’m thinking that you’re worst nightmare would have come true…it’s scary that sometimes nightmares are less frightening than reality.
I automatically cry when I see the footages taken by the Nazis documenting the worst kind of treatment a human being could ever endure. It impacts a part of my soul that impresses me to be kind to people every single day. God holds every person precious.
Was this related to the Gaza post?
How some of the jews where treated and now their immediate decendents do almost the exact same thing to some other people in the name of not being a victim people again?
And over at http://diaryofanegress.com/ we get an expose of how some jews where active partisapants in the slave trade.
We black/african american have our own abuse as well and from what I’ve seen of a percentage of us – we’re just waiting for some one else to do it to.
But as the albinic/white collective is continuously highly movitated and unfied
there may never be an oportunity for decendent revenge.
Maybe we (meaning our species) will evolve to capabilities that preclude such behavior.
Then again maybe the next level species will have powers and abilities we can barely dream of – the way we are compared to most other lifeforms on this planet – and STILL need to lie assult rape and kill each ,althought that no the only thing we or they can and will do.
@mbeti:
I think Abagonds idea here is to bring up the general theme in racism. It does not matter in the end where you are, who you are, because it is the same. The way black slaves and the whole slave trade was conducted was almost the odentical what the nazis did to the jews and others they saw as sub humans. Some, like the jews and gypsies, were to be eliminated at once, others, like the slavs (russians, poles etc) were to be used as slaves.
The Finns were also in the servant class of races, which is interesting since there are so many “swedes” who were actually “pure” natives of Finland. The swedish were of course germaic people. Their scientists, after all, were at helm of the whole race biology in the late 1800′s and early 1900′s and were very adherent racists.
It was the very idea of races in the core of nazi ideology that made it tick. For them jews, like everyone else not defined as germanic, were to be wiped out. Jews were the lowest form of life, Untermenschen, sub humans. Blacks were not even human beings but animals. Naturally, they would have been hunted, used and perhaps wiped off, if the nazis would have won.
And yes, when the white USA tried to wipe out the native americans, they were thinking in the very same way. They were using the very same words, same logic why the red savages should vanish from the earth etc.
And, unfortunately, today some israelis are using the same word and same logic against the palestinians, and talk about “pure” jewish people and their right to do anything simply because their “ancestory” (read: race) gives them that right. And here Abagond shows, that this is identical what the nazis were doing to the jews only few decades ago.
I have wanted to do a post on the Warsaw Ghetto for a long time as an example of racism drawn to its logical conclusions, but, yes, you are supposed to see the parallels with Gaza too. That is why I wrote it now.
@ Bulanik
Good point about the Romani. I added it to the post.
Something left out of the post is the anti-Semitism of the Polish Christians. While some helped Jews, like Irena Sendler, others joined right in with the Germans – willingly. Even before the Germans showed up some Polish Christians were violently anti-Semitic, as we know from the pogroms.
A joke from the Warsaw Ghetto about German and Polish anti-Semitism:
@Sam
I don’t think the idea of there being separate races is what led to the holocaust of jews by Germans. I think it was their reaction to the idea of their being separate races and their way of understanding the separate races. Part of their problem was believing that nature was inherently a competetive conflict between different races for survival, this is a false way of viewing racial differeces among people.
There certainly are separate races just as their are separate types of birds. In my neighborhood bluejays live and so do sparrows. The blue jays and sparrows manage to live in separate communities amongst their own kind however the also manage to live side by side together without being at war with one another. Also they don’t rely on restrictive laws to govern their behavior.
I think that it is natural for their to be different races and it is also natural for their to be people of various racially mixed identities and I support people being proud of whatever they are racially if that is something they choose to have pride in. It is not racial pride that leads to a holocaust, it is racial pride coupled with a lack of acceptance for “the other”. People have to learn to accept the existence of the “other”.
We black/african american have our own abuse as well and from what I’ve seen of a percentage of us – we’re just waiting for some one else to do it to.
But as the albinic/white collective is continuously highly movitated and unfied
there may never be an oportunity for decendent revenge.
”
”
”
Decendent revenge? – because more innocent lives ruined is really a solution for past lives ruined?
Where is that hatred going to take you?
Just when I finished reading ‘Eichmann in Jerusalem’.
[...] http://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/12/03/warsaw-ghetto/#comment-152406 [...]
@JT, you asked: ”Where is that hatred going to take you?
It’s a good question.
Being anti-Semitic is certainly not an outlook I’d subscribe to it myself (!), but I feel this form of race-hate has it’s psychological and emotional uses. As a hatred it’s hardly an insane conclusion to arrive, although flawed.
JT, may I ask you this:
If a person experiences racism and oppression, does it make them anymore noble for it? Does it make that person any more understanding of other people?
I think if it did, the world would be a very different place.
For black people, Jews are probably a good target for frustration and resentment, becausse Jews, or “joos” have traditionally stood in for whites in the black mind. (Especially for black people who have no white family or ancestors who are or were, Jews. That makes it easier, to beef up how much Jews had a hand in slavery and stole from blacks, are responsible for black media images, and more and more blame, and so on.)
Societies seek out scapegoats, and hatred craves a symbol.
Black anti-Semites are simply anti-white, but Jews are the easiest to peg that hatred onto. They are ready-made scapegoats, most of the work has already been done!! What use is to say that the American system is ACTUALLY controlled by the white Christian? None, because that’s just an inconvenient truth, and down with that. No use mentioning the suffering of Jews throughout history (caused by something called that millenia-old oppression “The Longest Hatred” which did not start in America). No. Because that won’t make the bitterness go away either.
What I noticed whenever in I’ve been in Poland, with the anti-Jew feeling there among some Polish people, was, why does it continue, despite what happened?
Well, because the Poles suffered, too. In fact, the Poles suffered at the hands of everybody. They lost everything. But where’s the international recognition and sympathy for them? Where’s the permission for suffering as a source of Pride? Still, the Polish people I encountered did’t deny the Jewish Holocaust or try to say the numbers are “grossly exaggerated”. Estimates vary, but the Poles know (specifically in Auschwitz or Oswiecim, near the town of Galacia in the south of Poland) don’t disputed that about 1.4 million people were destroyed there alone. After all, many thousands were gassed and cremated every day (up to 20, 000)… the descendants of locals I met up with talked of the intensive trafficking during the height of the murdering (train timetables and deportation records confirm, too).
And the AMAZING stench. From the ovens.
The fact of the matter is the suffering of the Jew’s is recognized as part of the moral history of the world and the Jew is recognized as a contributor so the world’s history: this is not so for the blacks, who do not have that agency.
Jewish history, whether or not one can say it is honoured, is certainly known. In contrast, black history has long been maligned and despised as a huge, slanderous under-recognition. The Jew is white, WHITE. And, when white people rise up against oppression, they are heroes: when blacks do the same, they, apparently, merely reverted to inherent savagery and all that crap.
There are laws against Holocaust denial. Are there comparable laws recognizing the huge loss of life for enslaved Africans?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial
Of course when the Jews had an uprising in the Warsaw ghetto it was not described as a riot, nor were the participants maligned as born-criminals! Heroes are loved in the US, especially white ones, who can be bad-to-bone and criminal and armed as they can be (Tony Soprano, Rambo, Dexter, etc) but there is no such thing as an perfect innocence for black folk.
And surely, indeed, it can’t be THAT bad and THAT gratuitous, for blacks in the home of the brave and land of the free, can it? Jews have allies in the world. Wasn’t the Jewish battle for Israel saluted as the most tremendous heroism?
I’m no expert on US history, but didn’t the Jews became white in America? White American. Why should there be black understanding for Jewish suffering and the slaughtering on European soil, when the suffering and slaughtering of black people happened, happens on American soil? If a Polish Jew or an Moroccan national is persecuted in the US soil, due to his or her ethnicity or nationality, can’t that person go to their respective embassies? Can the black person in America do the same thing in their own country?
Thinking out loud:
Appeal to an extra judicial authority (or a near substitute) or appeal to one’s home government. Yes, of course this solution did not exist and does not exist for the marginalized group(s) of a nation state.
Alternatives:
• somehow become an incredibly powerful lobby group
• become “a thorn in the side”
• Malcolm’s solution near the end (bit of a euphemism of course) of his career: bring “a case” against America not to an embassy but to the U.N. A community of nation states.
Malcolm’s solution was flawed, i think, for a number of reasons. But this probably doesn’t matter since sometimes the most important thing is to pick any starting point and get going. He either was already aware of the flaws or would have become aware of them and kept strategizing along the way.
@ Brothawolf
Thanks for the book recommendation.
“Night” by Elie Wiesel is a magnificent book.
@ Bulanik,
You bring up a number of really nuanced points re: Blacks and Jews; Jews and Poles; and Whites attempting to undermine Black agency. I am just going to receive them and ponder on them. Thanks!
Bulanik
Re: Your COMPELLING dissertation -
“….
I’m no expert on US history, but didn’t the Jews became white in America? White American. Why should there be black understanding for Jewish suffering and the slaughtering on European soil….”
THANK YOU !!!!!!! & AMEN!
{{{(>Thundering Applause<)}}}
@ Bulanik
Excellent points about Jews as white heroes. They are not completely white even now, and way less so back then, but white enough that their violence is seen in a completely different light.
White violence = self defence;
black and brown people breathing while being a historical victim of white violence and power = a threat no matter how laughably un/armed.
Some examples from 2012:
1. Gaza: homemade rockets v F-16s;
2. Trayvon: Skittles v a Kel-Tec PF-9 9mm pistol.
3. Jordan Davis: imagined shotgun (and loud music) v handgun
In the New York Times it was always Hamas = terrorists, Israel = self-defence, never Gaza = self-defence, Likud = terrorists.
Another thing that matters is who the violence is directed against. In the Warsaw Ghetto Jews were defending themselves against an enemy state of American power. Not so, say, the Black Panthers.
Or better still: Saddam Hussein. His genocide against the Kurds in the 1980s? Little to no demonization in the American press. But in the 2000s, having turned against America, he was demonized 24/7.
@Bulanik
“What I noticed whenever in I’ve been in Poland, with the anti-Jew feeling there among some Polish people, was, why does it continue, despite what happened? ”
Are you implying that the antisemitism in contemporary Poland is about WWII-era stereotypes? It’s way more complicated than that. After the war, as it often happens, a lot of the victims turned into oppressors. Jewish people, who were less than a percent of the population, were rather eager to cooperate with the Russians and had a significant role in constructing and maintaining the communist regime in Poland, and crushing the resistance.
I think this is the most famous example of their extreme overrepresentation in Poland’s postwar government:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Public_Security_%28Poland%29
Thank you, JT and Matari.
Abagond, true what you say about brown and black people being a threat whether armed or unarmed. And, I also take your point that Jews are not completely white, even now.
********************************************************************
I said:
“What I noticed whenever in I’ve been in Poland, with the anti-Jew feeling there among some Polish people, was, why does it continue, despite what happened? ”
In reply, eco asked:
@ eco
Way more complicated? Really? Do you know WHY this Ministry for Public Security (Ministerstwo Bezpieczeństwa Publicznego or MBP) was perceived as a Jewish institution? Are you familiar with Stalin’s attitude towards Jews and his knowledge of what can be achieved politically by anti-Semitism?
Your own argument implies a simplistic, traditionally self-serving anti-Semitic layer over complex events. Aren’t you saying, for starters, that there are proportionally more Jews in Poland’s government, than “proper Poles”?
….because as far as Poland’s Jews go, even though a few died during the second world war, ‘most’ stayed on, exercising great power, exacting cruel revenge and cunningly taking Christian names to avoid detection…that sort of stuff?
Afaik, Poland estimates 3.5 million of it’s Jewish population were killed during the Holocaust period. By the time of Soviet takeover, about 80,000 remained. Are you proposing that the numbers of high-ranking Jewish personnel in Poland’s postwar government REPRESENT Poland’s Jews and REFLECT, quintessentially Jewish characteristics in their “revenge” against the Poles, and that is a sufficiently and justifiable pretext for anti-Jew sentiment?
Yet all this had no connection with WWII-era Jew-stereotypes that were — of course — a one-off phenomenon that happened in a vacuum from outta nowhwere? Again: really?
Oh, please. Don’t.
Ever wondered where a form of casual abuse like “Zydzi do gazu” (Jews to the gas chamber) comes from?* These days it’s a criminalized form of speech in Poland, but it’s not as though nobody ever says it….
(*background detail: when the Warsaw and Lodz football teams played against one another, the Warsaw fans insulted/demoralized the strongly-Jewish city of Lodz with these words.)
The Jews’ plot to destroy God’s green earth and the good people on it is not new. Judeo-Bolshevism has long been maintained as a racist code for Communism. This particular conspiracy theory, The Jewish Conspiracy, has been in circulation since around 1818 or thereabouts. Thus, painting the Jew as avenging anti-Poland Communist is a fully consistent stereotype within that. No surprises there. Among Europe’s Bolsheviks, note their percentage in this breakdown among “other nationalities”. The Russians surveyed this! Just magnify the chart and have a look:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/1924_Chart_-_Conditions_in_Russia.png
This part of Poland’s history IS complex, true. But the Jew as anti-Polish and therefore Communist stereotype, is pretty old, but still current, because people still use it…
As a stereotype, in itself it was used to kill Jews in Poland during Polish–Soviet War of 1920 (e.g., the Pinsk massacre), and in the Lwow Pogrom during the Polish-Ukrainian War.
Yes, Jews were well represented in the Polish Communist Party, but weren’t Jews always over-represented in it, in relation to the percentage of Jews in Poland’s population? Are you implying that Jewish membership in the Communist Party of Poland represented Jews in Poland in general? And, that the atrocity-committing MBP, riddled with Jews, somehow ‘represented’ Jews and Jewishness in Poland in particular? Careful, eco.
If you are implying this, don’t you think you might have been seduced by the Yid-Commie stereotype, too?
I hope that you are aware that the Jewish communists were a not a large political and social group with little actual influence in the Polish-Jewish community or Poland as a whole. This means that whilst most Jews were neither communists nor communist sympathizers, a substantial and quite visible portion of the Polish Communist leadership in the interwar period was Jewish. And, before WWII, this marginal group stereotyped as the “Yid-Commie” in Poland also acquired the tag of “criminal” as well, magnifying the idea of political criminality. (There’s a book by Robert Blubaum, if I recall, that explains how criminality was linked with ethnicity in early 20th century Europe, but I can’t remember the book title ).
Following Soviet invasion, and Poland’s partition, everything changed, and yes, Jews did participate (along with others) in the killing of ethnic Poles (the example of Massacre of Brzostowica Mala comes to mind, and there were others). Then add in this: the perception of blatant co-operation of Polish Jews with Soviet occupation AND the visibility of Jews in Poland’s government – a fact which was novel in PRE-war Poland…. and what do we have? Stereotype confirmed (and damn the inconvenient details that contradict/dilute it).
Following on from the German invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941, the popular Polish belief in this stereotype ^^, combined with the German Nazi encouragement for expressing of anti-Semitic attitudes, was a principal cause of massacres of Jews by gentile Poles in Poland’s northeastern Lomza province in the same year, which included the massacre at Jedwabne of about 3- or 400 Jews.
After the Soviet takeover of Poland in 1945, there WAS a period pf postwar retribution and counter-retribution, Polish anti-Communist insurgency, some Jews wanted and got their bloody revenge from the Poles who harmed Jews during the War and in some cases Jews attempted to reclaim property confiscated by the Nazis. But as Jews occupied these few positions of power, it was the first time in history they had entered the top echelons of power in these numbers. Yet were these Jews safe once they did so, because hadn’t these events fulfilled the stereotyped that had led to their persecution already?
The combination of the effects of the Holocaust and postwar anti-Semitism led to a dramatic mass emigration of Polish Jewry in the immediate post-war years. Of the estimated 240,000 Jews in Poland in 1946 (most were refugees from the Soviet Union, most on their way to the West), only 80-90,000 remained a year later, and this remaining number stayed on for political reasons, fulfilling stereotype.
So: was it a coincidence that the preferred Soviet policy of the Stalinist era was to keep sensitive posts in the hands of non-Poles? Shouldn’t the despised Ministries of Stalin’s control be best served by despised Jews? It should not be a surprise that all or nearly all, of the directors of that Ministry were Jews, because they were the perfect scapegoats for Polish Stalinism: gross violations of human rights law and abuse of power… typical Jew behaviour! Most Jews had realized earlier, that under Stalin, anything a Jew did did as part of their job description would only and ever be attributed to their intrinsic Jew-ness.
I am sure you already know that during de-Stalinization in Poland, it was not a coincidence that the high ranking Stalinist security officers put on trial were Jews. In fact, true to form, stereotyping and scapegoating of Jews appeared and re-appeared during times of severe political and socioeconomic crises in Stalinist Poland…so lay blame for the excesses of the Stalin era on the Jews. This is only traditional. Actually, as a tradition, it is quite well documented: in fact it justified the beatings, unemployment and persecution of Jews in Poland during this period of “extreme overrepresentation” Jew-Power in Poland. As a result some 40,000 Polish Jews between 1956 and 1958 fled.
A decade later, in around 1968, the Jews that remained in Poland were forced to take a anti-Zionist pledge. Again, thousands of Jews were expelled from Poland in the false belief that they were Zionists. The Communist elites (um, not actually Jews themselves) purged Jews from scientific and cultural institutions, publishing houses, and national television and radio stations.
Meanwhile, let’s forget the vast majority of Jews did not participate in the Stalinist apparatus, and indeed most were not supportive of communism.
Call it whatever you like, eco.
Re-framing anti-Semitism, in all the different ways possible still serves the same purpose of rationalizing and explaining the participation of ethnic Poles in killing and their Jewish neighbours and, thus, in minimizing the criminal nature of the murder.
Sorry for such a long comment above. Just had to get that off my chest.
“Sorry for such a long comment above. Just had to get that off my chest.”
********************
Um, no apologies required … but I’m finding myself in total agreement with Kwamla and those who believe you deserve a blog of your own… because you have LOTS on your AMAZING chest – and – MANY FANS who would love to see/find your insightful/detailed/prolific ideas, thoughts, opinions and genius easily and readily accessible in one location.
It doesn’t have to be a conventional blog, if “conventional” is a concern, it should be whatever you want, however/whenever you want. I think you owe it to yourself …
and especially to your adoring fans to try … !!!!!!
: ))))))
Try a couple of GUEST POSTS (here, or elsewhere) on a topic close to your heart – and see how it goes.
I see you deleted my post again. You a Stone Coward. And I lost all respect for you and this blog.
@ Blackman
I have not deleted any post of yours since November 12th.
Maybe Bulanik could team up with a few people to form a blog to help people learn about stuff they could not see or think about before, but want to learn more about.
“black and brown people breathing while being a historical victim of white violence and power = a threat no matter how laughably un/armed.” abagond
“Blacks” have a very high rate of violence. “Browns” don’t. You’re trying to camouflage a black problem by lumping “blacks and browns” together. Stop hiding behind brown people.
@ Matar!
So kind, my dear. I really have to get my life into some order….
@ Jefe. Thank you. Never thought of that…
I caught that about the similarity to the gaza strip in the other entry…. The higher order takeaway is that it sets up the precedent for cia involvment in afghanistan (80′s), contra rebels etc. in that what one hand does the other knows not. I mean how could the US govt not sanction these companies that did business with the 3rd reich, other than to countenance it.
““Blacks” have a very high rate of violence. “Browns” don’t.”
**************
Church,
Actually WHITES have the highest rates of violence, but of course YOU would never know that by merely looking at crime stats, which are largely formed/gathered/adulterated/manipulated by white people.
Interesting, isn’t it, that some of the biggest criminal actions perpetrated against *some* humans are not considered crimes at all – and definitely AREN’T COUNTED as such. Why isn’t wide scale murder (and lying about it) considered a crime???
Why do certain people never have to pay for their HUGE crimes, while *others* spend their whole existence caged for comparatively minor infractions?
The last time I looked it was and still is WHITE led WESTERN coalitions that’s invading small relatively powerless sovereign nations and raining terror/murder on their citizens under the guise of a so-call WAR on *terror* in order for elite WHITES to steal and gain immense and insatiable PROFITS/WEALTH from the blood, sweat, oppression and DEATH of others.
Michael Vick went to jail for killing some dogs.
Bush Jr. and his gang of NEO-CONS ordered the killings of Saddam Hussein, his sons, and what amounts to horrendous purposed DESTRUCTION of infrastructure and the murder, rape, torture hundreds of thousands of MEN, WOMEN, BABIES in Iraq — and elsewhere!
Not a one of those WHITE politician/crooks have been brought up on charges!
It’s a safe bet that they won’t ever see the inside of a prison, much less a jail cell.
[{{{ YOU - really should stop believing the delusional BS. }}}]
@ Church
You do know you are saying this on a thread about the Warsaw Ghetto, right?
Treblinka killed 870,000 people in the space of about a year – that is roughly 150 times the rate at which black street crime in America kills people. And Treblinka was just one part of a much larger genocide. And that genocide was just one of many carried out by whites over the past 500 years. And on top of that are two world wars and countless colonial wars.
The only people arguably more violent than whites are the Chinese and the Mongols. Black and brown people come no where CLOSE to that scale of violence.
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/03/05/democide/
You do know you are saying this on a thread about the Warsaw Ghetto, right?
That is Church’s superior white intellect at work. Their thought processes are stunningly complex as is their white washed minions who mimic their betters.
Very sad what happened to the Jewish people in the Warsaw Ghetto. The Jewish people suffered and went through a lot during WWII in Europe under Hitler outside of the Warsaw Ghetto. Hitler did everything he can to try to kill off the Jews.
By the end of WWII, Hitler killed close to twelve million people and about half of them were Jewish people.
Anne Frank, well known victim was killed in the Holocaust and I have read her diary.
Throughout history, the oppressed have always been marginalized, hated and kept down for centuries.
The Holocaust reminds me that there is truly evil and sick people out there in the world.
@Bulanik
“Do you know WHY this Ministry for Public Security (Ministerstwo Bezpieczeństwa Publicznego or MBP) was perceived as a Jewish institution? Are you familiar with Stalin’s attitude towards Jews and his knowledge of what can be achieved politically by anti-Semitism?”
The MBP was not perceived as a Jewish institution. It was seen as a Russian institution. Antisemitism, in Poland’s communist years, could achieve very little. The anti-Russian sentiment was much, much, stronger. Russians tried to counter this with anti-western propaganda, not antisemitism. Antisemitism was marginal and mainly a consequence of the fact that nationalism was growing more powerful in an occupied country. Nationalism ‘othered’ Jewish people. They were not considered to be truly Polish and the fact that religion was becoming a very important element of Polish national identity ‘othered’ Jewish people further. They were not seen as important or particularly malicious as in the WWII-era Nazi or nationalist propaganda, mainly because they were barely visible since there were so few of them left. The fact that, out of those who were visible, for every Marek Edelman there were five Jakub Bermans didn’t help either.
I’m not saying Jewish people deserved the image they got, but the reasons why they got it were much more complex than you make them sound to be and had more to do with Poland’s specific situation at that time than with centuries old general stereotypes about Jewish people.
“Your own argument implies a simplistic, traditionally self-serving anti-Semitic layer over complex events. Aren’t you saying, for starters, that there are proportionally more Jews in Poland’s government, than “proper Poles”? ….because as far as Poland’s Jews go, even though a few died during the second world war, ‘most’ stayed on, exercising great power, exacting cruel revenge and cunningly taking Christian names to avoid detection…that sort of stuff?”
That’s not what I said at all.
The name changing thing was happening, but I think it had more to do with wanting to fit in than with some kind of evil intent.
“Are you proposing that the numbers of high-ranking Jewish personnel in Poland’s postwar government REPRESENT Poland’s Jews and REFLECT, quintessentially Jewish characteristics in their “revenge” against the Poles, and that is a sufficiently and justifiable pretext for anti-Jew sentiment?”
No. The overrepresentation of Jews in Poland’s communist era governments had a negative impact on their image. People construct opinions about large groups of people based on relatively few representatives. I’m not saying that process is reasonable, but it’s how people think.
“Oh, please. Don’t.”
It would be nice if you actually addressed my own words instead of trying to guess what I’m thinking…
“background detail: when the Warsaw and Lodz football teams played against one another, the Warsaw fans insulted/demoralized the strongly-Jewish city of Lodz with these words”
You have no idea what you are talking about here. Polish football fans do not hate Jewish people. The vast majority are ‘just’ insensitive brutes. Google “Wisla Krakow”, “Cracovia Krakow”, “Maor Melikson”, “Dudu Biton”, etc. The supposedly anti-Jewish symbolism has little to do with actual antisemitism.
@ eco {Bulanik slaps her thigh and busts out laughing!}
Your reply is a juicy peach of backtracking. Plus, damage control…
Un-slick, but funny. Made my day.
First you tell me what I “imply” based on your wrong inferences, and then, when you realize your mistakes, you want to tell me that I guessed wrongly what you were thinking…..
….and this, after I outlined the historical complexities to YOU, at length, you then piggy-backed on what I said in your answer to tell ME that I have no idea what I am talking about.
So. The existence of Zydokumuna (the anti-Semitic myth of Poland’s Jewish Communist bogey-men) never achieved much and led to no persecution and no deaths? Right. Okay, eco…if you say so. Scapegoating Jews never served any uses during Stalinism. Sure. That’s why you don’t about it, apart from what I told you.
With regard to “Zydzi do gazu” (Jews to the gas chamber).
Um….were you paying attention!!!!!! What I said was this:
I said Polish football fans hate Jewish people? Oh, where?
“Zydzi do gazu” is a form of hate speech, coined during the Holocaust-era, and then used post-war. This is why it is criminalized in Poland, unlike: Wisla Krakow, etc., which are names for Polish football clubs: they are not anti-Semitic hate-speech. Can you understand the difference, eco? Why don’t YOU do more Googling?
Zydzi na Madagascar (Jews to Madagascar) was another expression, that was used more after WW2, and that, apparently came into fashion when Gomulka (Poland’s Jewish Communist leader returned to power again in 1956). The Madagascar Plan was the anti-Semite design to deport European Jews to the island of Madagascar, and dates back to pre-WW1.
Sorry, eco. I just can’t take you seriously.
eco, sweetie, do you have some pathological desire to embarrass yourself? Because that’s all anything you type in your comments ever accomplishes.
@eco:
Well, there is nothing special about the polish situation and jews. There has been pogroms in Poland and eastern Europe well before nazis even showed up. Saying that jews are communists and communists are jews is just a repeat of one of Hitlers favorite lines. And lets not forget Lazar Kaganovitch, The Wolf of Kremlin, pne of Stalins closest friends and himself a jewish heritage, who harrassed and prisoned and killed many of the jews living in USSR before and after WW2.
Actually one of the first pogroms ever to take a place happened in York, England, in 1190′s when there was an more or less organised attempt to kill all the jews in that town. Also it is important to remember that many so called crusades, or attempts of it, in central Europe, specially in Germany, ended up with a massacre of the jews in the nearest town.
So trying to explain the current or previous antisemitic attitudes in Poland with communist-jewish axis is quite funny and in line with Hitlers naziparty ideology.
@Bulanik
“Your reply is a juicy peach of backtracking. Plus, damage control…”
I’ve clarified a statement you’ve misunderstood. Nothing I’ve said in my original comment required any damage control. You don’t seem to able to notice a difference between my actual words and your insinuations about my motives and thoughts.
“after I outlined the historical complexities to YOU”
I sincerely doubt you have a tenth of my knowledge about Poland’s history, its politics or sociology. You were not outlining the historical complexities. It looked more like quotes from the “History of the Jews in Poland” wiki article.
“you then piggy-backed on what I said in your answer to tell ME that I have no idea what I am talking about”
You do seem to have a very shallow understanding of the events you are talking about. You can’t see things in the correct scale. you do not understand the context. You can’t tell which events are indicative of how the society thinks and which are not.
“The existence of Zydokumuna (the anti-Semitic myth of Poland’s Jewish Communist bogey-men) never achieved much and led to no persecution and no deaths?”
Overall, it hasn’t achieved much. At least not during Poland’s communist years. It didn’t distract people enough to make them believe that they are suffering because of the Jews and not Russians. “Zydokomuna” was a marginal, fringe idea. It existed, but it wasn’t particularly important. It did work against Jewish people, obviously, but the fact that they were actually visible as supporters of communism had a real impact on their image. Few saw it as a validation of old conspiracy theories to most it was simply treason. The conspiracy theories and examples of actual Jewish involvement were not seen as the same thing. That’s why when the communist government tried to use the symbolism of Zydokomuna to explain its past actions it didn’t work and they recognized it as ineffective too.
In modern Poland the term “Zydokomuna” largely lost its original meaning and is used extremely rarely. Usually as a slur against liberal people in general.
“I said Polish football fans hate Jewish people? Oh, where?”
Where have I said you did say that?
“Can you understand the difference, eco? Why don’t YOU do more Googling?”
I told you what you should google, because you do not understand the context of the event you were talking about. When Polish football fans (or rather hooligans) use anti-Jewish symbolism or slogans it has little to do with actual antisemitism. In this case Jews are just collateral damage, not the ones who are targeted. The symbols and slogans have largely lost their original meanings.
I’ve mentioned two clubs, because the rivalry between them is a great example of the supposed antisemitism in Polish football and the other two names belong to Israeli national team players who were signed by the ‘antisemitic’ Wisla club. I think you would have a better understanding of the situation you mentioned if you familiarized yourself with their opinions on the ‘antisemitism’ in Polish football.
@tehnoun
Unfortunately we can’t all be such valuable contributors as you are.
@ tehnoun, you said:
Perhaps eco has bags and bags of potential embarrassments queuing up for our delectation….heh.
I for one, wait meekly for the part where eco shows us all the remaining nine-tenths of the knowledge he/she possesses about Poland’s history, politics and sociology…. Perhaps sport symbolism is a pet subject of eco’s? Can’t wait.
@ @ sam
So trying to explain the current or previous antisemitic attitudes in Poland with communist-jewish axis is quite funny and in line with Hitlers naziparty ideology.
Yep, it’s funny all right, but some folks don’t know how unintentionally funny they are.
@ eco. I am floored, and take you seriously. You represent and understand everything with such disarming accuracy. Clarity of mind is your middle name.
I stand corrected. You are, indeed the possessor of startling and dazzling levels of profound knowledge! I never knew. I was blind but now see.
Not that even your last reply was yet more blatant piggy-backing.
Of course you knew all about the myth Zydokomuna, before I did, didn’t you? You knew it was another word, the Polish word, for “Yid-Commie”.
Yes, naturally I BELIEVE your well-founded claim that:
*You have a very deep understanding of all the events you’re talking about.
*You can see all things in the correct scale (?)….
*You totally understand all the contexts, where others can not (even more and better than educated Poles over 50 years of age).
*You can tell (more than anyone) which events are indicative of how the society thinks, and, of course, ones which are not…
eco, how could I have underestimated you so savagely?
Therefore: I’d love if you’d explain those events in details, names and such,
Thus: TELL US ABOUT POLAND.
Tell us about your times there, your impressions and thoughts, what you learned from listening to Poles, or accounts from their relations, that lived through those eras and events mentioned, etc. But, do so in your own words.
Please.
Tell us and give solid examples of ALL your claims.
Because your claims are not empty claims, are they? and I am not all excited about what you’re holding back for nothing, am I?
And, do tell us MORE and BETTER about the mythic “Zydokomuna”, but nothing “cardboardy”. That means tell us not only the general, but also the specific. Tell us about Poland’s Jewry. Do. (But try not to quote me — use your own material and terminology — which’d be far more convincing.)
I’m particularly interested in the events that impacted Poland’s political history over the last 90 years. In your estimation… Give links, too, so that we can Google them up. Just so everything can be checked. Can we avoid sport symbolism, if poss. to keep it relevant? There is so much to learn from you, eco. I can barely contain myself.
And, if your references and book titles are in Polish, that’s cool — but not from Wiki — please, if you don’t mind. Proper and reliable scholarship is anticipated. So the names of the authors, too. Thanks.
I got my own information from Poles. Both in and from, Poland.
And also from books and articles and recollections and places I visited whenever I was there over the course of a decade or 2.
‘Obviously’ I haven’t learned a thing, because everything the Poles told me and wrote about their families, country, history and themselves was false.
Because eco says so.
eco knows more than the historians, too.
So, I will leave it up to you now, eco, because googling up football symbolism ain’t working for me on a thread about the Warsaw Ghetto….
*****************************************************************************
Btw, you also said this to Bulanik:
“You have no idea what you are talking about here. Polish football fans do not hate Jewish people.” (*)
What do you mean by this ^^? Because you say you did not say this.
Explain and explain fully what you actually said in those 2 sentences, as I am sure you can stand over everything you say and claim.
(* You said this in the last paragraph here: http://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/12/03/warsaw-ghetto/#comment-153062)
I didn’t know there was actually Wiki article titled “History of the Jews in Poland”.
Thanks, eco.
I’ll find it, read it to see where and what I allegedly QUOTED…
@Bulanik
I see somebody “went full r-tard”…
My original objection was that the Polish stereotypes about Jews from the WWII period are largely gone and have been replaced by new ones. The modern Polish antisemitism has little in common with its pre-50s version. I still stand by that.
I tried to explain, apparently with little success, that the modern negative stereotypes about Jewish people ale largely fueled by the fact that for decades they were mainly visible as oppressors, as traitors, as people who did not want to see an independent Poland. Religion had a very significant impact too. During the communist years Catholic symbolism became a very important element of Polish national identity. It’s still very strong today. To reject Christianity or its symbols is usually seen as unpatriotic and supporting secularism as an attack on the Polish national identity. Which I consider ironic since the religion was imposed on Poland. Anyway, Catholicism has “othered” Jewish people
The Zydokomuna idea is pretty much dead and gone. Even NOP (Narodowe Odrodzenie Polski) members rarely use it in its original meaning. I think its actually the communists who killed it. They tried to use Jews as scapegoats (mainly from mid 50s to late 60s), explain their own evil actions by blaming them on Jewish communists and later (80s) tried to discredit Solidarnosc (the Solidarity trade union) by linking it to Jews, but at that point nobody was listening to them.
Oh, “Yid-Commie” isn’t a good translation of “Zydokomuna”. “Zyd” means “Jew”, it’s not a pejorative name for a Jewish person. “Zydokomuna” doesn’t have a singular form, only a plural. It can be used to describe ideas or groups of people. “Jew-Communist” is the best possible translation I can think of, but “Jew-Commie” is OK too. “Zydek” – that one is much closer to “Yid”.
I’ve mentioned religion, nationalism and Jewish communists before. You didn’t seem to be particularly interested in challenging or discussing any of that. Associating a few of my comments with the Zydokomuna stereotype was pretty much the best you can do. In my opinion, it’s because you do not know much about Poland and you are aware of it. That’s why you want to stick to mentioning names and dates. That’s the stuff you can check on the internet or in a book. When I’m talking about subtleties like the meaning of symbols in the specific context of rivalries between two groups of hooligans you do not want to address that because you do not know anything about it and you wouldn’t know how to check if it’s true. Unfortunately for you, in this case, dates and names can only tell you something happened, not how significant it was or what it meant.
About the quote you mentioned. I said I haven’t claimed that you said Polish football fans hate Jewish people. That’s true. The second sentence of that quote is me beginning to explain why I think you do not understand the context of the situation you were talking about.
And, finally, I’m not saying I am an expert on Polish history. I’ve only said I know much, much more about it than you do. It’s really great that you’ve been to Poland and that some of your best friends are Polish, but none of that stuff intimidates or impresses me. I think that at this point you should be able to figure out why.
Anyone notice the repeated pattern that eco seems to claim?
@ eco
{Bulanik blinks in dismay as she surveys the little sandwich eco has brought to the intellectual banquet expected…}
You already lost the argument upthread, then threw in the towel when you could only resort to call me a “r-tard”.
Yet, I’m heartened you back-tracked again by admitting you not an expert on Polish history, cos, you ain’t. It’s obviously obvious that you don’t know as “much” as you think. You just imagine your greatness among mere mortals.
That said: WHERE IS THE KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING OF POLAND?
I have already spoon-fed you the info to google from, so bring it on!
Have you considered that the reason why you have little success getting your point across? could it be because you don’t have much of one? Perhaps you only fail in your Poland ‘explanations’, because your Poland explanations simply aren’t yours, and you can’t back up your claims cogently because you’re a balloon. Move the goal posts around to look ‘better’ than you are, if you wish. It’s so ‘subtle’. (But not really.)
Now, let’s see. Where is the substance and depth about Poland you claimed to have? eco, am I waiting in vain?
You mean you could only stump up one bit of a paragraph to show-case the massive 9/10ths of your deep, far reaching, detailed and far superior knowledge, including the full extent of contexts (including Polish ones) indicative of how the society thinks, and, of course, ones which are not…? Who are the thinkers and authors behind this? Where are YOUR insights reflecting vast knowledge to dwarf mine? Show!
I think you made a false claim, eco. And, frankly, I am disappointed after all the empty-hype you awarded yourself. You don’t even say how you come upon your superior, subtle, knowledge of many things Polski, since what you have to say is so sketchy and old-hat.
Of course, you don’t say you know Poland or have any (or few) Polish friends/acquaintances, or read books by or about Poland or Poles. Why’s that?
This is important in the shaping of knowledge about this nation and its history. And, yes, actually, these factors ARE important to gain a mature and nuanced understanding of that nation and its people, NOT because it is actually “intimidating” or “impressive”!
You just feel intimidated and impressed, which is your problem, because it’s very, very strange why anyone would feel intimidated or impressed because another person visited Poland or knows a person from that land.…wtf?
Poles are folks, eco. Get over it.
@ eco
Two of my Polish colleagues read what you wrote earlier on.
One broke his sides laughing, saying you sounded patetycny (that’s Polish for “pathetic”) and the other, a Katowice-native, asked whether you’ve had contact with a biological “mulisty” of late? He said that since you have a Very Subtle and Very Superior understanding and knowledge of Poland, and the Poles, you will know precisely what he means by that. Naturally. So what does he mean, eco? Please share.
Oh, “Yid-Commie” isn’t a good translation of “Zydokomuna”. “Zyd” means “Jew”, it’s not a pejorative name for a Jewish person. “Zydokomuna” doesn’t have a singular form, only a plural. It can be used to describe ideas or groups of people. “Jew-Communist” is the best possible translation I can think of, but “Jew-Commie” is OK too. “Zydek” – that one is much closer to “Yid”.
Again, eco, not paying attention!! How can you ever learn anything if you don’t pay attention? Zydokomuna is not a “translation” of Yid-Commie.
You get confused so quickly, over and over. Look at your answers:
You misrepresent yourself, and then claim over and over you know more than everybody else.
eco, I sympathize with your sense of feeling intimidated.
And your wanting to feel superior despite that.
A lot of inadequate people feel the need to exaggerate claims about themselves, and then can’t back up their egotistic fantasies.
@ sharina. Hmmm….
Something is not right.
@ Bulanik
I agree. Something is not right. Every single time he gets in a jam his running line is “you do not understand.” I don’t know whether to feel sorry for him or laugh as he gets the verbal azz whoopin’ you are giving him.
I’m laughing, go get ‘em Bulanik!
I see eco’s doing it again.
I don’t know much about Warsaw, Poland during the Nazi regime. However, I would highly recommend, “Night” by Elie Wiesel who’s given a first hand account of what it’s like being a Jew during those times. I will tell you upfront that some of the things you will read, you won’t believe. Nazism knew no bounds to demonize and eradicate the Jewish population in Europe in their quest for supremacy. That much is true.
Eco, here’s the deal, what you’ve learned during your lifetime about the subjects you’re commenting on in this blog may NOT be accurate or correct altogether. There’s a possible that you, yes you, might be incorrect about certain things. You’re not right all the time. No one is. So, why not listen to what other people are saying, and you might learn something new particularly those who’ve experienced things FIRST HAND.
Hey, noticed the key word “retarted”. Isn’t that familiar “argument” by certain nerdy guys when they lose the real argument?
Way to go Bulanik.
Sam, I hope you find the info on the would-be black Waffen SS soldier …
I tried to find it yesterday. I keep looking.
@Bulanik
Ah, so you still haven’t figured it out…
I’ll give you another hint in a minute.
You are not actually challenging anything I said. You are saying that my point isn’t strong enough because I’m not mentioning dates or names. I’m talking about words and symbols changing their meaning. That’s not something I can put a date on or associate with a specific name.
If you’ll actually bother to ask me about some element of my claim I will do my best to explain where that is coming from. I’ll even try to mention names and dates, but I’ll probably also make more claims about the significance of events. Claims you can’t discuss, because you do knot know Poland well enough and you wouldn’t know how to check if what I’m saying is true or not.
I said you should ask about elements, because I’m probably not going to elaborate on the whole thing. I do not have that much time to waste. Besides, I’m sure that with your understanding of all things Polish you can easily spot the weakest parts of my claim.
Zydokomuna is a Polish version of the Yid-commie stereotype. It’s slightly different than it’s English cousin. Even the word itself stands for something a bit different.
Are your Polish friends third graders? The first one can’t spell and uses (somewhat) big words he/she doesn’t understand. “Patetycny” isn’t a word. “Patetyczny” is. “Patetyczny” doesn’t mean “pathetic”, “żałosny” does. “Patetyczny” means “pompous”
I have no idea what “biological mulisty” could mean. That would be “biologiczny mulisty” in Polish. That’s senseless and grammatically incorrect. “BiologicaLLY mulisty”, “biologiczNIE mulisty” on the other hand, that would be slang for “mulisty in nature” or “mulisty since birth” and “mulisty” is a bastardized version of another slang word. It’s a cousin of “zmulony” or “zamulony” and when you are using it do describe a person it basically means “slow”.
So, “biologically mulisty” means “slow since birth”, but “biological mulisty” doesn’t make sense on it’s own and “having contact with a biological mulisty” is an even bigger mystery. It’s interesting that your Polish friends don’t know how Polish grammar works and make the same mistakes (mistranslations) that can be found here:
http://translate.google.pl/#en/pl/pathetic
I’m sure you’ll appreciate a few links
sjp.pwn.pl/lista.php?co=patetyczny&od=&from=os
sjp.pwn.pl/szukaj/%C5%BCa%C5%82osny
sjp.pwn.pl/szukaj/mulisty
sjp.pwn.pl/szukaj/biologicznie
miejski.pl/slowo-Muł
And finally, THE mystery. It really shouldn’t be a mystery by now. When I’m dismissing the importance of your limited experiences with Poland and Polish people you are immediately assuming that’s because I do not have a lot of those or generally do not consider them as important. Actually, there is another possibility.
@brothawolf
“So, why not listen to what other people are saying, and you might learn something new particularly those who’ve experienced things FIRST HAND.”
The grammar mistakes I make when I’m using English are a hint too…
Ah, I forgot about this bit:
You said: “I’m heartened you back-tracked again by admitting you not an expert on Polish history”.
It would by really nice if you stopped thinking that you interpretations of my words and my actual words are the same thing.
I said:
“I sincerely doubt you have a tenth of my knowledge about Poland’s history, its politics or sociology.”
Then you constructed a gigantic strawman about my supposed claims about my knowledge and I replied with:
“I’m not saying I am an expert on Polish history. I’ve only said I know much, much more about it than you do.”
How is that backtracking?
I referenced “Tropic Thunder” (the r-tard quote) because I felt you deserved it for writing a comment that was 80% ad hominems.
@ eco. Okay, okay. Enough breast-feeding you.
Like an infant with open mouth! Challenge you?
Thought about why, eco? It’s not because I can’t, but, because … I won’t.
The reason is plain to all but you, and it is this:
Because you contribute nothing from your own mind.
You merely rely on me to feed the emptiness, using it as fodder to make more claims that you subsequently flounder on, but pronounce mastery of.
All to show you are not intimidated, or impressed by people and places.
*************************************************************************************************
The reference to biological slime is from Cyberiada, well-known Polish s/f satire. But because you’re intimidated by, and ignorant about, Poles and Poland, etc., you used it as an opportunity to google up Polish language translation links to show your virtuosity at that ‘skill’ instead.
If you had the:
- familiarity,
- understanding of the events,
- understanding of social contexts,
- understanding of correct scale,
or…even a clue about the way Polish society thinks, as you claim you’d have got that joke at your expense right away.
As it goes, you’d have got it even if you were vaguely familiar with what real Polish people read and laugh at post-Communism.
But you didn’t.
Instead you busied yourself, as usual, killing 2 birds with one stone:
1. wasting your abundant time, and,
2. embarrassing yourself. AGAIN.
{Bulanik wonders whether eco will need burping before his afternoon nap…}
@ sharina
@ lifelearner
@ sam
sharina’s insight: “Every single time he gets in a jam his running line is “you do not understand.” I don’t know whether to feel sorry for him or laugh… ”
It’s a philosophical conundrum, isn’t it?
And your point is?
@eco:
Dude, you are really childish or then you are a child. I get it, you are polish. So? We can not discuss about the polish antisemitism, bigotry and xenophobia? C’mon, son. Grow a pair and be a man, and answer the questions, argue with arguments or say that you have none. It certainly seems that you have no argument. It is not an argument to say that you are a polish.
You think we are so dumb that we do not see that you try to discredit another commenter simply saying that because that one is not polish and I am, I must be right. It does not work that way, buddy. You have to argue. No throw tandrums.
I’ve explained it in Polish. I’m sure you will easily understand it. You can always ask your Polish friend
http://translate.google.com/
@sam
If you haven’t noticed I’m not the one who doesn’t want to discuss things. These:
“Challenge you? Thought about why, eco? It’s not because I can’t, but, because … I won’t.”
are not my words.
These are:
“If you’ll actually bother to ask me about some element of my claim I will do my best to explain where that is coming from.”
@ eco
Witek read it and wants to say something to you later, and Dariusz won’t have time until Saturday to do so, but both men think you sound like you might be having problems with managing your anger and frustration in life.
(NOTE: their words, not mine.)
Both agree it is not “discussion” you want, or need.
Achieve much?
I just deleted two comments because they were partly written in Polish. That is against my comment policy. This is an English-language blog.
http://abagond.wordpress.com/comment-policy/
@ Abagond
Sorry about that. I was quoting eco and that was my mistake.
@ eco
I am going to weigh in on what I have observed here.
1. Your biggest issue is how rude you are to people. A person could agree with you on something and still would not stand with you simply because you are rude and condescending. It is not what you say but how you say it.
2. You love to claim people don’t understand and don’t know while at the same time dancing around the questions they ask you. Usually if a person is asking a question then they are trying to understand, but you write it off. This indicates to them that you don’t know.
3. You could have simply said you are polish. Simple as that. Instead you decide you are polish after she mentions polish friends. “The fact that apparently still have not guessed, it’s quite embarrassing.”—Now tell me how she is suppose to guess what you are online? She can’t see or hear you. That was idiotic to say in itself. You are the one who should be embarrassed that you even said that.
4. I am no expert on this but I know that much of Spanish slang is not in any type of translation tools. Neither is Korean slang, so I will guess that one can not find polish slang in translations tools. It does not mean it does not have a meaning but that it is slang and slang can be regional among other things.
5. “Now you may ask Abagonda is, which country comes my IP address. That should be the end of dispel all doubts.”—People can move IP addresses if they are internet savvy enough. Just sayin
If you are polish then you are polish but you need to stop trying to make people out to be an idiot. They are not and much of what you say makes you come off as one among other things.
@ Sam
I would be interested in knowing about the black Waffen SS soldier too.
@Sam
but when/if you find the info do post it on Silver Convention; the most improbable thread ever.
@ sharina. Excellent points.
Above, I asked eco “And your point is?” because commenting in another language is point-less.
True, eco could have simply said “I’m Polish”.
Then a straightforward discussion could have ensued.
But no. eco wanted a cloak and dagger guessing-game instead.
That’s acting in bad faith. Perhaps eco thought s/he could win some points if s/he could catch “Bulanik” out in a lie , by setting some kind of “trap”!
As if being a Pole himself is, and of itself, a clincher.
Does being any particular nationality “ring-fence” that country from discussion about it?
I wonder if eco has special “rights” on the subject of Poland?
sam is from Finland and will freely admit that he knows much about Finland, and I would agree with him.
Yet sam can only speak for himself and not every Finn. Anyone of us could disagree with sam’s perspective about Finland, but would that mean we were “retarded” for doing so, and friends we had from that country are imaginary?
By the same token, I am not American. Does that mean non-Americans may not and cannot, in principle, comment on or question the US, Americans or American history with any knowledge or competence because we are the wrong nationality?
@ Legion
@ sam
Re: Silver Convention “fly robin fly”
Info on the black German SS guy has definitely got to be on the most improbable thread ever!
@Bulanik
B, you may not like what I’m going to say, but here goes. This discussion between you and Eco has gone wrong, in the sense of there being some ill feeling now. I hope the two of you can start out clean and just discuss your different takes on Polish Jewry and different takes on the current state of anti semitism in Poland.
You say Eco was engaging in some sneaky cloak and dagger, maybe he was. Would it have been accepted if he’d said, “I’m Polish”? You did say at a certain point you could not take him seriously. He’s certainly proven he has a connection to Poland because he is a Pole. He does not have exclusive rights to discuss all things Polish, of course. But now maybe a fresh discussion can take place where you both take the other one seriously, without having to agree with the other.
My views on race and racism are very dissimilar from a number of the commenters here. I was mocked as being a pseudo black faker because some commenters could not believe that I could believe or say certain things and still be black. Only by the luck of my comment history was I able to show that in all likelihood I am black. I had to make a multi link post of my past comments in the open thread. I have some sympathy for Eco’s lengthy Polish language post, he perhaps felt compelled to prove that he has a sincere interest and knowledge of things Polish.
I know what it is like to try and defend an unpopular, seemingly strange opinion or view. Eco has rubbed Sharina and Brothawolf the wrong way from a prior thread. Hopefully, things can go smoother between you and him before there is permanent ill feeling. Let me know what you think.
^of course I may regret that post of mine when I find out what Eco said in that Polish post.
@abagond, legion:
That guy was not accepted into SS but he tried. I am looking for him. Forgot the net site where I read it couple years ago.
There was one black guy fighting in finnish army in Winter war 1939. Now that would be a good war movie: a black guy in completly white winter camo gear in totally white arctic forest fighting.
@ legion
Yes I admit he has rubbed me the wrong way and the reason being is that he acts as if he is superior to everyone. Instead of exchanging thoughts and ideas with people he gives the attitude of “I am right and you are wrong.” Some of the things he says the other has already agreed on or said but he will say they are wrong and agree on it in a later post. He is constantly belittling people, especially the women who object to his ideas. In my mind once you do that to a women then i am done with you.
You and I have disagreed on things but we are here to learn and discuss and on that note i don’t hold a grudge. I am not mad at eco but he is wrong for telling her she is retarded.
@ Legion, you’re right. It’s a loss situation we have now.
Yes, I do recall the way you were handled and misunderstood because your outlook is your own. More than that though, I remember that you will speak out protectively, and out of integrity, when other commenters are blasted or cold-shouldered because of “unpopular” differences in outlook.
I had a good year of being consistently scorned and outsided myself. Among other things, I’m supposed to be a white supremacist, don’t forget! LOL!
There are still moments nowadays of that outsider thing
What eco said in his Polish language commentary was along the lines of what he/she said already in English, with more colour and anger. I don’t think I’m a favoured discussion partner, somehow. But that needn’t be cast in stone.
I haven’t read the exchanges between eco, sharina or Brothawolf, and not sure what happened, but I feel that if eco wants to be straightforward, explain his/her thoughts about Poland and its history, plainly openly, without being rude to other commenters, it’d be constructive and welcome in a discussion like this.
@ sharina
“…belittling people, especially the women who object… In my mind once you do that to a women then i am done with you.”
I feel the same when I sense that particular shyte too. And I sense it fast.
I’ve had a lifetime of it and putting up with it doesn’t get easier as time goes on.
@ sharina
That said, I’m practical, and don’t always rule out dialogue with a sincere person that I have had differences with in the past.
People never fail to surprise me.
@ bulanik
I have said to eco over and over again about how he speaks to people and it seems to mean nothing cause his goal is only to win.
If he is polish then he could contribute greatly to the discussion but he will need to drop the superior attitude.
@ legion
I am sorry if I by any chance made you feel not black for your ideas.
@ Sharina.
Exactly. The goal isn’t just to win by putting others down.
Sharina, I also appreciate thinkers/commenters like you (plus Legion, Brothawolf and sam, and others) who have the character and sensitivity to speak up for others.
Thank you.
Bulanik,
thank you for understanding where I was coming from. That was kind of a “should I open my big mouth?,” moment for me. Sometimes, for better or worse, I just can’t keep it shut.
————————————
@Eco
… I feel that if eco wants to be straightforward, explain his/her thoughts about Poland and its history, plainly openly, without being rude to other commenters, it’d be constructive and welcome in a discussion like this.
I hope you take Bulanik up on her offer Eco.
@Sharina
Oh wow! WTF, we are like talking to each other! I thought hell would freeze over first.
ha, ha
Life is short dear, I hold no grudge either, nor did I. My apologies to you too, things got heated back then.
I’ll do this FIFO style, I will not group my replies by commenter.
@Bulanik
“Witek read it and wants to say something to you later, and Dariusz won’t have time until Saturday to do so, but both men think you sound like you might be having problems with managing your anger and frustration in life.”
Which one is which? Who can’t spell and doesn’t know “patetyczny” and “żałosny” have similar meanings only on Google’s translation site, and who doesn’t know Polish grammar, read “Cyberiada” in English and tried to translate a bit into Polish?
They thought I sound angry based on the Polish part of my comment? Interesting. I hope they’ll be able to reply to me in Polish. We can use pastebin.com or something like that.
@sharina
“It is not what you say but how you say it. ”
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/07/24/the-tone-argument/
Besides, when you are going through my comments and Bulatnik’s I’m looking like the rude one? Really?
Compare
abagond.wordpress.com/2012/12/03/warsaw-ghetto/#comment-153184
or this
abagond.wordpress.com/2012/12/03/warsaw-ghetto/#comment-153253
(or any other comment addressed at Bulanik)
with
abagond.wordpress.com/2012/12/03/warsaw-ghetto/#comment-153200
“You love to claim people don’t understand and don’t know while at the same time dancing around the questions they ask you. ”
Bulanik didn’t want to ask me questions because she assumed she knows Poland better than me. I told her she doesn’t understand some things, because in order to understand them and analyze them you need knowledge she does not possess. Like knowing the language, watching the news, knowing the political parties and movements, and (most importantly) listening to the Polish people around you.
That’s why I made fun of her when she bragged about her trips to Poland and interactions with Polish people. Stuff I call “a weekday”.
“You could have simply said you are polish. Simple as that.”
And she could have stopped for a moment to think: ‘Hey, maybe this guy does have some connection to Poland I do not have?’. Instead, she kept assuming things. If she asked me early on what makes me think I know Poland well I would have given her an honest answer.
“I am no expert on this but I know that much of Spanish slang is not in any type of translation tools.”
She wasn’t using slang. The butchered Cyberiada reference was nonsensical, grammatically incorrect. Slang was my best guess when I was trying to figure out what the hell does she mean. Oh, I mean, what the *air quotes* Polish friend meant.
“People can move IP addresses if they are internet savvy enough. Just sayin”
Can’t Abagond see the IP addresses I used before this conversation started? Like, for example, two years ago? I do not know. I never had a blog.
@Bulanik
“s/he could catch Bulanik out in a lie , by setting some kind of trap”
I didn’t intend that to happen, but it happened, didn’t it?
“As if being a Pole himself is, and of itself, a clincher. ”
In this particular discussion I’m afraid it’s impossible to have both – knowledge and objectivity. You can be a somewhat objective spectator, but you haven’t experienced what you are watching from afar and hearing about. I have, but I’ll be subjective about it.
@Legion
Thank you for being reasonable.
“of course I may regret that post of mine when I find out what Eco said in that Polish post.”
You will not regret it. Saying that the fact that Bulanik couldn’t figure out I was Polish seemed embarrassing to me, was pretty much the strongest jab.
@Sharina
“but he is wrong for telling her she is retarded.”
Seriously, am I the only one who saw “Tropic Thunder”?
“never go full r-tard”.
When I said she “went full r-tard” I wasn’t calling her a “r-tard”. It meant she chose to act completely r-tarded to achieve a goal. That’s how I felt about this comment
abagond.wordpress.com/2012/12/03/warsaw-ghetto/#comment-153200
because I think it’s riddled with jabs and ad hominems like nothing I’ve said to her.
@Bulanik
“What eco said in his Polish language commentary was along the lines of what he/she said already in English, with more colour and anger.”
I was more polite to you in that Polish comment than in 90% of my other ones. I even used courtesy forms when I was addressing you. I guess that’s not something translate.google.com can pick up on.
“if eco wants to be straightforward, explain his/her thoughts about Poland and its history, plainly openly, without being rude to other commenters, it’d be constructive and welcome in a discussion like this.”
I already have. You didn’t want to talk about it.
What do you want to talk about now?
@ eco You think are straightforward, and polite. Really?
Have you considered that you might be delusional, in fact? And this thread was not about a serious subjext, about actually about guessing your identity?
About you?
Do you think you are the first commenter to make up an identity or nationality on the internet?
Perhaps you could demonstrate your understanding of nuances, too, because you may’ve only succeeded in making yourself look more foolish than ever.
The movie clip of the white actor (Robert Downey) in black face was also up to eco-standard, too. So many layers of offensive. Black folks love films like that. Yes! Congratulations. Perhaps you are not anti-Semitic either?
I think you have embarrassed yourself a few times on this blog.
But, if you desired my embarrassment, and wish to teach Brothawolf and others a lesson, you have failed superbly.
What Legion, sharina and I were discussing was not an admission of embarrassment. We simply didn’t want to lose you in your humiliation.
Couldn’t you see that?
Obviously you are unaware of the nuances of what having “a connection to Poland means”. It doesn’t mean you succeeded in some way by way of being Polish, or that you somehow, by magic, not rude or even that your comments have more gravity than they do, as a Pole, in a thread about Poland. Boasting about knowledge of Polish language also cuts no ice, and awes no one.
No. Read and think about what people are saying. Try and learn.
I don’t know, but could this “Guess I am Polish” carry-on have a connection to a conversation you had with Brothawolf in which a point was made and you said something that Brothawolf replied to on the lines of you, eco, could not understand because you did not have “first hand experience”?
Is this actually a case of:
“Ah, I, eco, will use Bulanik and her non-Polish-ness on this thread to make myself, eco, look like the clever guy I think I am?”
And, in a stroke of utter brilliance (in your own mind) show these people their folly, because you are vengeful fox and smarter than all of us dark folks?
Your being Polish is not actually of significance.
What did you actually contribute?
I asked you questions, and what were your answers? Banal generalities. Plus more claims of superior knowledge, backed up by pointers on your most excellent Polish grammar. Yawn. What you wanted was for me to feed you info. But where was your insider evidence and proof of superior insight, your exposition?
For that, I wait.
Good way to derail a thread and make it about you, though.
Well done.
@Bulanik
I haven’t said I was perfectly polite to you, but I haven’t treated you the way you treated me in this comment in particular:
abagond.wordpress.com/2012/12/03/warsaw-ghetto/#comment-153200
I’m not making this about myself. You forced me to talk about myself by repeatedly suggesting that I do not have any first hand knowledge about Poland. Guess what? I do.
Anyway. I’ve made general statements about Poland because that’s the only type you can make when you are talking about the attitudes of millions of people. It’s impossible to be precise.
Please ask me a question about Poland and I’ll do my best to present a detailed reply.
“Tropic Thunder” is not making fun of Black people. The white guy who thinks he can act Black is the joke. Its clearly visible in another scene (“what do you mean, you people?”). It’s on youtube too.
“Your being Polish is not actually of significance.”
Interesting. Are you the same person who said this earlier:
“you don’t say you know Poland or have any (or few) Polish friends/acquaintances, or read books by or about Poland or Poles. Why’s that? This is important in the shaping of knowledge about this nation and its history. And, yes, actually, these factors ARE important to gain a mature and nuanced understanding of that nation and its people”
???????
This, Bulanik, is how backtracking looks like.
I noticed you didn’t address any of the things I mentioned about the mistakes your “Polish friends” made. I hope I’ll still get to talk to them about it.
Oh, this reminds me of one more thing.
After you had read my Polish comment you said to sharina:
“Perhaps eco thought s/he could win some points if s/he could catch Bulanik out in a lie”
‘S/he’, huh? You do know what my tone was:
“both men think you sound like you might be having problems with managing your anger and frustration in life (..) What eco said in his Polish language commentary was along the lines of what he/she said already in English, with more colour and anger”
You claim to have knowledge about something subtle, like tone, but couldn’t figure out I’m a man?
In Polish, when you are talking about yourself, phrases or individual verbs or nouns take different forms depending on your gender. In English only some nouns are like that (policeman/policewoman). A man says “jestem Polakiem”, but a woman would say “jestem Polką”. Both mean “I’m Polish”. In my comment I used the male forms. That’s something a native speaker would easily notice, but an online translator could overlook. I guess it’s just one more thing your Polish friend forgot to tell you about.
Are you going to say that I’m talking about myself and change the subject again?
I should have made it clear. You lied about my tone too.
Eco’s IP address comes from Poland and has been since at least March 2011. I highly doubt that it is fake.
@ abagond
The point I am making is not whether eco is making a fake claim about his IP address. The point I am making is that eco is making this thread about ECO.
There are many nationalities on this thread who don’t make their hidden country of origin the organizing principle in a discussion.
@ eco
Do you believe that the way you have messed around in this thread is exceptional?
Just this week, JT said this on Open Thread:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/open-thread-2/#comment-152659
I imagine this and other remarks directed at you must smart, eco.
But you are barking up the wrong tree right here thinking you are on to something BECAUSE THIS IS ABOUT POLAND, where you feel in your element.
Why? because you have made a lot of claims but delivered little except tell me what I don’t know and call me a retard, which doesn’t help the discussion.
Why not tell us what you know instead and earn yourself some credibility instead.
*You made a lot of claims that you could not live up to, and you continue to do so, as you profess deep knowledge but say little to back it up and show your reasoning.
Then, when it obvious, you said you weren’t an expert.
You said you were polite, and when it was clear you weren’t really.
Then when it was clear, you said you weren’t “perfectly” polite.
Comedic!
I asked for you info, details, authors, references, etc and you could not produce. And, wasn’t it Brothawolf who asked brought in first hand accounts….you’re getting yourself confused.
eco, where are your first hand accounts? Your own ones, from your own head? Tell us about Poland, instead.
@ Eco
Your writing tone comes off as arrogant. I have said it to you before that I truly don’t think you realize it. Your first few response was fine. So was Bulanik’s and I found both very interesting and educational. It was when she accused you of back-tracking that your tone got vicious. I honestly believe that you just hate being told you are wrong or that you don’t know something. It sets you off. Your first response to that is always to attack their intelligence. Then you go on to belittle them and so forth.
I am torn between this belief that you don’t know you do it and that you know you do it but want to make excuses for it. I just don’t know, but I do know it ruins any real discussion after it happens.
Yes, I have seen Tropic Thunder. Not a real rememberable movie though. Even so ““went full r-tard”…” was in poor taste. It really did not come off as funny
@ eco
Your owning up to being Polish after you said earlier you are not intimidated or impressed if someone has been to Poland and knows Poles, is NOT significant. Really.
And the reason it is NOT significant is because saying you are Polish as a “surprise Pole” is just silly. How has your Polishness added to the discussion if you behind it because you think it will make you look smart?
It adds NOTHING because the subject is not “guess eco’s nationality”.
The subject is something important. And interesting.
You seem to think that your Polishness nails it. So what? Everyone is from somewhere on this blog, and in this world. How are you special?
My question was this:
“….you don’t say you know Poland or have any (or few) Polish friends/acquaintances, or read books by or about Poland or Poles. Why’s that?”
And the question still stands. How much more productive it’d been if you had actually given an honest and detailed account, your own. Tell us about post-Warsaw Ghetto Poland, instead. Say something of interest that only you, as Pole in Poland can tell us. Maybe flesh it out with opinions and perceptions. What were the debates? The trends?
When I asked you the following, why didn’t you take the opportunity to dazzle us with your mind:
The reply was what?
Why not tell us about anti-Semitism in your country.
What about racism and racists in Poland.
About Jews and anti-Semites.
What about black people and Asian people in Poland?
When you said this:
Are you implying that the antisemitism in contemporary Poland is about WWII-era stereotypes? It’s way more complicated than that.
Why not go into the background and explain how the stereotypes changed and manifested after that, then, since what I said was equal to zero. Tell us about it in their complication, since you know and no one else could.
You see, you have no idea how rude you are. But when you can say nothing of substance as to how and what you know in comparison to what someone else does, it can make you look foolish.
Begging your pardon, but I read out what you said to my friends.
You obviously think that this discussion is a language proficiency contest.
It is not. This blog is in English.
Yet, your lack of knowledge of the inner workings of this language is weak at times, as you are unaware of the way some writers deliberately don’t make assumptions about people’s gender. That takes sensitivity. Note, I didn’t actually call you “she”. You missed that, because your English has limits. In English there’s a degree of flexibility, and some experimentation with anti-sexist language. But that’s no big deal either….you are hardly the first commenter on this blog who doesn’t have English as their first language. Note the use of “their” rather than “his”, for example.
And no eco, you are the one who claimed you were subtle and knew about the historical subtleties post Warsaw Ghetto. But what and where are they?
You say that I have :
“…a very shallow understanding of the events you are talking about.
You can’t see things in the correct scale.
you do not understand the context.
You can’t tell which events are indicative of how the society thinks and which are not.”
And what as a Pole, in Poland, who has a deep understanding, sees in the correct scale (?), understands the context and can tell which events are indicative of how society thinks and which are not, actually put forward?
Robert Downey Jr. In black-face. To prove you are not calling me a retard, simply because I, as a non-Pole, dared to speak about anti-Semitism in Poland. That’s what’s got under your Polish skin, I fear.
Why not instead exercise yourself by telling us about Jews in Poland rather than picking at nits of Polish grammar. Give us some meat!
This, re eco:
100% Spot on, Sharina.
@ Eco
“If she asked me early on what makes me think I know Poland well I would have given her an honest answer”—In a way she did, but it was full of sarcasm.
“And she could have stopped for a moment to think: ‘Hey, maybe this guy does have some connection to Poland I do not have?”—She could have and you could have also stated your connection.
But, what does it matter if eco, or any commenter has a connection to country that the rest of us do not have?
Is the onus on “the rest of us” to ask?
Is the onus on any of us to ask the nationality and sex of other commenters if the discussion centres on a country or gendered experience?
My remarks to eco are riddled with question marks.
Bulanik,
“The point I am making is that eco is making this thread about ECO.”
Linda says,
Very true and this sh’t seems to happen too regularly on this blog. There is so much information and insight that can be gained from each other but it seems Ego’s are getting in the way. (and I’m just as guilty…I’m making a concerted effort to stop)
I was enjoying this thread up until Eco and Bulanik got into it and it turned into a pissing match.
Bulanik brought up interesting information that had the ability to make non-white, non-European readers appreciate the subject at hand and possibly conceptualize their own prejudices in regards to Jews.
and Eco, you had the ability to give information to the rest of us from a non-Jewish standpoint on your country and how your Polish society thinks….that would have further opened our eyes as the “why’s” and “hows” of your history….it’s unfortunate that doing a “tit for tat” with Bulanik became your focal point.
Most people have a hard time empathizing/feeling the pain of other groups of people — that’s why I initially liked coming to Abagonds blog so that I can read other people’s views–(people who I would never interact with in my daily life)–
and the different personalities that post here makes for an interesting read!
God knows, I disagree with some things I read here from other black/brown posters and I find myself agreeing with some posters (like Tyrone) on certain issues, even though he dislikes Hispanics.
There is no right or wrong on this blog, we’re all just sharing our beliefs and giving examples of our own lives and the group we come from.
Anyway, my 2 cents…carry on
Sharina, I asked eco about Poland and his experience of that country.
eco said:
“You have no idea what you are talking about here. Polish football fans do not hate Jewish people.”
And I answered this way:
What do you mean by this ^^? Because you say you did not say this.
Explain and explain fully what you actually said in those 2 sentences….
And asked in this:
Therefore: I’d love if you’d explain those events in details, names and such,
Thus: TELL US ABOUT POLAND.
Tell us about your times there, your impressions and thoughts, what you learned from listening to Poles, or accounts from their relations, that lived through those eras and events mentioned, etc. But, do so in your own words.
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/12/03/warsaw-ghetto/#comment-153200
It was at that point that eco started to call me a “retard”.
@ Linda
(lol)
I suppose I get damn frustrated when I want to learn something important and understand new things, and there are obstacles in the way that don’t make any sense to me.
@ Linda
I’d be interested in your input on the Silver Convention thread which has turned into an exploration of black experiences and history in Germany.
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/12/02/silver-convention-fly-robin-fly/
This thread is about the Warsaw Ghetto and, by extension, Polish Jews, anti-Semitism, the Holocaust, genocide, racism, etc. It is NOT about the persons Eco or Bulanik. They are off-topic here. I will delete any further comments about them and probably most of the ones upthread about them.
Anyone is allowed to comment regardless of nationality. People who live in a country SHOULD have more insight and knowledge about it, but that does not mean they are always right. If only life were that simple. For example, Sam from Finland seems to be more right about America than many American commenters. Sometimes it takes an outsider to see certain things. And some people are just way more informed than others regardless of nationality.
This statement right here said volumes to me:
“Bulanik@
The fact of the matter is the suffering of the Jew’s is recognized as part of the moral history of the world and the Jew is recognized as a contributor so the world’s history: this is not so for the blacks, who do not have that agency.”
I could never understand black/brown people’s dislike for Jews…I always attributed it to the “crabs in a bucket” mentality but your statement Bulanik, for me, actually hit it on the head…
it does burn that the Jews ancestors suffering is acknowledge by the whites/Europeans “powers that be” and society, whose ancestors caused the pain and persecution; while the same society (white/Europeans) diminish and marginalize the history and contributions of our black/brown ancestors and the pain and persecution that they suffered.
but at the end of the day, the Jews are still dislikes by the whites/Europeans and if the Jews did not manage to financially make themselves strong, this acknowledgement by the white dominant society would have never happened.
– and FINANCIAL is the key word
The Jews have been Persecuted and Hated for thousands of years, but have managed to transcend this and have attained Power…
I respect them for this.
What the Jews in America/Europe achieved is what every black/brown country or ethnic minority living in a white-dominated society should be aspiring for on a full time scale….to me, black/brown people of the diaspora care about the wrong things in this life –
It’s like our ancestors suffered for nothing because black/brown people of today are running after selfish dreams that doesn’t uplift our black/brown societies as a whole.
Look at all the black American companies that sold out and were bought out by white American corporations…
Look at the Jamaica and the other Caribbean islands –our governments and corporations are selling us out to foreign corporations that contribute almost nothing back to our societies…
Look who is controlling the minerals and oil in Africa (there’s even a TV show about white Americans trying to become rich by mining for gold in Ghana) …enough already.
Is there any record on how many escaped through the sewers?
@ Linda
“I could never understand black/brown people’s dislike for Jews…I always attributed it to the “crabs in a bucket”—I could never understand that either. I think some may see them as white people and treat them as such.
@ Eco
If you don’t mind sharing I would personally love to know what Poland is like after this tragedy. Is the area of the warsaw ghetto a historical landmark or has something been built on top of the land etc?
@Sharina
“Is there any record on how many escaped through the sewers?”
Not really. Only very inaccurate estimates. People were escaping in different ways and Polish resistance was helping from the outside. The sewers and tunnels were just one option. You could get forged documents, find a good hideout and wait for the fights to end or escape from (or on your way to) the Umschlagplatz railway station where the trains took people to concentration camps, mainly Treblinka. There were also people… hmm… “people” is a bit of a big word in this context… let me rephrase: there were vultures who could get you to safety if you paid them.
I remember seeing the number 8000 in the context of the amount of people who escaped in July 1942 and later, in the period when over 250 000 people were sent to the camps. Whatever estimate you can find it’s likely to be very inaccurate. People can’t even agree how many were fighting the Germans during the uprising. 1000? 1500? 3000 is the number that usually represents the German forces according to most Polish history books and encyclopedias.
Abagond mentioned the sewers in the context of the final days of the uprising. about 40 last resistance fighters tried to escape on the 10th of May 43. Some didn’t make it. Amongst those who did was Marek Edelman.
*digression mode on*
I’m not sure why Abagond hasn’t mentioned him. He was a true hero and had fought for freedom and equality for most of his life.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marek_Edelman
“Zdążyć przed Panem Bogiem” (published in English as “Shielding the Flame” and later as “To Outwit God”)
is a mandatory read in Polish high schools. It’s Hanna Krall’s lengthy interview with Edelman, mainly about the ghetto. It’s usually juxtaposed with “Rozmowy z katem” (“Conversations with an Executioner”) by Kazimierz Moraczewski, an officer of the Polish army who the communist government put in one jail cell with
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%BCrgen_Stroop#The_Warsaw_Ghetto.2C_transfer_to_Greece_and_return_to_Germany
*digression mode off*
Anyway, this is how Edelman described the escape (my translation, sorry for the quality):
“Getting through the canals took a whole night. We kept stumbling on barb wire the foreseeing Germans had prepared for us. The hatches leading out the canals were covered in rubble. The pathways were booby-trapped with grenades that exploded on touch. Every once in a while Germans released poisonous gas into the canals. In these conditions, in a canal that’s 70 cm tall, where you can’t straighten up and the water is reaching your mouth, we waited 48 hours to exit. Some were passing out. The thirst was unbearable. Some were drinking the thick, mud-like water from the canal. Seconds felt like months. On the 10th of May, at 10 in the morning, two trucks stopped by the canal exit near the point where Prosta and Twarda streets cross. In broad daylight, almost without any armed support (…) the hatch opened and the perplexed pedestrians who witnessed the situation saw armed Jews walking out of a dark abyss. (…) Not all managed to get out fast enough.”
The quote is from “Getto walczy. Udział Bundu w obronie getta warszawskiego”
(“The Ghetto is fighting. The Bund’s participation in the defence of Warsaw’s ghetto.” – again, my translation)
by Marek Edelman, published by CK Bund in 1945.
@Sharina
“If you don’t mind sharing I would personally love to know what Poland is like after this tragedy. Is the area of the warsaw ghetto a historical landmark or has something been built on top of the land etc?”
The city had been rebuilt after the war. The area where the ghetto used to be is pretty much in the central part of Warszawa. There are a lot of monuments marking the places where the walls of the ghetto used to be
warszawa.wikia.com/wiki/Pomniki_granic_getta (Locations+pictures)
There is a mound and a monument where Anielewicz’s bunker was.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mi%C5%82a_18
a monument near the location of the canal exit Edelman used
warszawa.wikia.com/wiki/Pomnik_Ucieczki_z_Getta
Generally the city looks normal, but it’s impossible to miss the signs and monuments reminding people where they are.
If you are wondering why people felt it’s OK to rebuild, it’s because, in total, 65% of the city was destroyed during the war. Reconstructing the capital was seen as a priority, a sign of the country’s rebirth.
That’s not how the links looked when I was writing the comment.
The ghetto walls monuments:
http://warszawa.wikia.com/wiki/Pomniki_granic_getta
“locations+pictures” is just my side note that was supposed to appear further to the right.
The “Conversations with an Executioner”/Stroop link got cut off. It was supposed to lead to “The Warsaw Ghetto” section of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%BCrgen_Stroop
Sorry about that.
^oh good. I was going to ask you why your links keep coming up as solid text.
Rutka Laskier was a 14 year old girl who kept a diary during 1943, whilst living in the Jewish ghetto in Bedsin, Poland. Rutka and her family were finally deported to Auschwitz, where it’s believed all of them perished in August 1943.
She lived for 4 months before contracting cholera and was unable to move. Whilst she was being wheeled away in a large wheelbarrow by Zofia Minc, she was able to speak to her and begged her to let her kill herself on the electric fence. The German SS guard would not allow it and Rutka was burned alive at age 14. Before her death Rutka told a Christian friend of hers, Stanislawa Sapinska, about the 60-odd page diary. After the war, Sapinska found the manuscript hidden in the basement of the deserted family home.
These days she has become known as Poland’s Anne Frank.
There’s a full documentary about her experience in the ghetto.
Well, I mean if not about her experiences in the ghetto, then the story of how the diary got written and discovered by her sister long after Rutka’s death.
There are always people who wonder, when the subject is the Holocaust, why some other group of people are not as noticed. All the suffering of blacks in America, all the millions killed in communist Soviet Union, and some would say the modern Palestinians fighting Israel. All I can say is that there is something especially monstrous about the Holocaust, or at least it seems that way. It has entered the collective consciousness like no other tragedy. Perhaps in part because it has been translated into Art, and Art is what lives on forever. The European Jews prized education and literacy and of the few that survived the destruction of the European Jewry quite a few turned it into Art. Many have mentioned the short book Night by Eile Wiesel with good reason. I read it and the story is burned into my brain. Read it and it will be burned into yours too. The Diary of Anne Frank is one of the most read books in the world, after the Bible. A Jewish girl in hiding baring her soul and even opining that she believes people are still good, deep down before being dragged off to die of typhus in a concentration camp. This stays with you in a way statistics and facts do not even if the human suffering behind them is just as real. Maybe that is wrong, but I think it is human nature. Even the photographs and films of the Holocaust, which the Germans were crazy about taking, burn a hole in you. The picture above of the soldier’s riding crop shoved under an ancient woman’s chin like she is a misbehaving dog, it stays with you. Most perpetrators want to hide it, but for some reason the Germans were camera happy.
For the gentleman on the slave trade who wants to share with us how the Jews were in on that, the big movers of black human traffic out of Africa were the Muslim Arabs, , and warring black Africans who sold off their prisoners of war for profit. Later the Europeans (christians, at least in name) got in on the good thing. Keep in mind everybody had slaves then, black Africans included.
I should add that I am not blaming or demonizing the Africans for this. I just like to set the record straight and to me, the more I study it, the real tragedy of slaves brought to North America is not slavery itself, since that existed everywhere and had always existed, but that there was no way out in this society for them. Traditionally slavery was more fluid, you could work your way to freedom, or your children could be born free, or your master could set you free for a job well done, all sorts of scenarios. The plight of the African in North America was that, after the 18th century when blacks, and Indian slaves, and indentured whites found common cause and started to join forces and even caused some riots, the South worked to turn them against each other and make Black people permanently the Other, the lowest of the low, with no way out. This is what was so particularly deadly about their situation. It is ironic that it was the White slaveowners who feared black white and Native American joining forces to fight the Man, so to speak. Something to think about….
” Keep in mind everybody had slaves then, black Africans included.”
***********
This. … BROKEN RECORD tired argument. The “THEY” Did It Too argument.
It’s gross ignorance!
Actually, it’s beyond gross.
Being a AFRICAN SLAVE in Africa, relatively speaking, was like having died and gone to Heaven compared to the Hellish Nightmare experience that being a BLACK SLAVE in AmeriKKKa was.
You should do something (research/reading/study maybe?) about this gross ignorance.
There’s really no excuse for this level of ignorance nowadays – especially since you’re now ON the medium (internet) you’re using to post an asinine comment like – ” Keep in mind everybody had slaves then, black Africans included.”
Educate yourself.
@ ChrisA
I think you have some understanding of the specific problems with the American Slave trade. There were worse aspects also that are worth looking into, but this seems like a good start.
@ ChrisA
Art and agency definitely play their parts.
But is the Holocaust special because its purpose was to KILL OFF A RACE IN ONE GO of people, snuffing them out on a huge, industrial and unprecedented scale because one hates them, rather than enslaving them, dehumanizing them and working them like animals, generation after generation, with no regard for their humanity for ECONOMIC profit?
The Jew (and Romani gypsies) had to be eliminated as the filth of humanity, they had to be located, and then, systematically murdered. The enslaved Africans (Americas) lived an existence of viciously enforced servitude, over the course of 400 years. The Holocaust took under 4 years.
And it’s not about numbers.
Stalin engineered many more millions dead than Hitler,
And, many millions more Africans were killed through slavery — more than the Jews, Romani and Poles and others used as slave labour and/or murdered by the Nazi regime.
@ ChrisA
Caution, please.
When you say this, it sounds like there a uniform definition of slavery here, that equates it to uniquely European terms. I believe this a BIG mistake!
“AFAIK it’s a mistake to confuse “slavery” as practiced on the continent with the notion of superiority and inferiority, a notion later invoked as justification for black slavery in the Americas. More commonly in Africa, was the practice of adopting slave children or to marrying slave women, who then became full members of the family. Slaves of talent accumulated property and in some instances reached the status of kings: Jaja of Opobo, for instance…..”
This comment ^^ is a from a previous discussion about practices in a few countries in the western part of the continent:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/08/03/africa-the-last-13000-years/#comment-141428
And:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/08/03/africa-the-last-13000-years/#comment-141431
@ King
I have just read your comment to ChrisA, and agree that it’s a good starting point.
@ ChrisA.
“Traditionally slavery was more fluid, you could work your way to freedom, or your children could be born free, or your master could set you free for a job well done, all sorts of scenarios.
I didn’t read this comment of yours until after I’d written my comment about the “European” definitions of slavery, etc. My apologies.
@ Bulanik
You know your stuff. I am very impressed.
@ Sharina, thank you.
But there’s so much I’d like to learn. About everything.
There’s also a lot I’d like to bring into this discussion; about Poland and the Poles, both Jew and Catholic. And, I’d like to do that when I have the time. There are many questions and possible answers to this subject.
Especially, for example:
1. the culture of racism towards the ethnic Poles, and
2. the acutely sensitive reaction many Poles feel about being sometimes falsely accused of anti-Semitism when the truth about Poland’s Jews is explored. As eco said, it’s complicated! It really is.
Even President Obama made the truly dreadful error not long ago by wrongly attributing the Nazi death camps to the Polish. Oh no,no….. bit like saying “the Cuban detention camp in Guantanamo”:
I think what makes the Holocaust so terrible is its pure racism. It was rooted on racism. It shows us how far racism can go if it is unchecked. Nazis really tried to kill the whole another race. They would have killed others too, had they won. They had a list of humans and sub humans. All those subhumans were to be eliminated later on. The slavs, romani people naturally, gays etc. They were to be killed out. The lucky non germanic people who would have been allowed to live, would have been slave races. They really had these plans.
BUT if some one tries to portray slavery in more nicer light, think again. It was economic exploitation at its worst. Think about why it began. Why bring slaves across the ocean? Well, because the first slaves, natives, were almost killed out. They died off. So lets replace them. Simple as that. But the conditions these new slaves were brought in to were the ones which had killed millions of native americans by then. You doubt? Look at the Caribbean islands and show me the local tribes, nations, natives… Yeap. There are none, They were killed in slavery. And to replace them, africans were brought over.
This sytem actually resembles a lot the soviet kulag system. At its peak, the prison camp system and prisons were actually a system of slaves in soviet economy. And just like in the new world few centuries before, millions died when the bosses reaped the benefits and built an empire. Stalin and his cronies needed millions of slaves to run the economy. The Kulag presented them. Just like cross Atlantic slave trade did. But with racism added in the mix.
Not all of the children in Warsaw’s Ghetto died with parents.
Some Catholic Poles could not, and would not, tolerate what was happening to their fellow countrymen who were Jews. The price of helping a Jew? Death.
I’ve read that Poland was the only country, as decreed by the Nazis, where aiding a Jew, be it only to give them a slice of bread, was immediately punishable by death. Failure to inform on a neighbour hiding Jews meant deportation to a Nazi concentration and extermination camp. A copy of the Nazi decree promising death to any Pole found helping a Jew, Warsaw 1942:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Afisz-kara_%C5%9Bmierci_za_pomoc_%C5%BBydom.jpg
The Polish Government of the era was exiled in London. This government in exile worked closely with “Żegota” — an organization with one purpose: to aid Poland’s Jews, and find places of safety for them in occupied Poland.
Poland was the only country in occupied Europe where there existed such a dedicated secret organization. What the Polish Government in Exile suggested camps, such as the one in Auschwitz/Oswiecim, should be bombed. The British rejected such an idea. In fact, they ignored the reliable intelligence about what happening to Poland’s Jews. Similarly, the Allies did nothing for about 2 years whilst Poland raped and pillaged.
A special section of the Żegota was organized to remove children from the Warsaw Ghetto after locating homes for them. These children also required false documents and stories to match. If they were old enough, they had to memorize new identities. About 2,500 children from the Warsaw Ghetto were rescued in this way, mainly through the work of a Polish Catholic, Irena Sendler, a nurse and social worker. She is also known as Krzyzanowska.
Irena Sendler is honoured as one of the many Catholic Poles commemorated as Holocaust-resisters.
*correction: sentence should read:
“Similarly, the Allies did nothing for about 2 years whilst Poland was raped and pillaged.”
@ sam, I’ve been thinking about what you said, and I’m didn’t want to give the impression that it is Slavery V. Holocaust.
It wasn’t that slavery was somehow nicer. The slavery/Gulag system we are talking about hardly valued life.
I believe the way this has been framed is wrong. Perhaps if it was looked as genocides it’d be clearer?
Are we really asking is why what happened to the Jews makes it different from an ordinary Genocide, or Democide? Wasn’t it Holocaust too for the Armenians, the Romani gypsies, the Ukrainians?
It’s as if “Holocaust” has a power that set a paradigm that other groups of people who have been killed in the millions have not reached.
The Nazi concentration camps were purpose-built complexes for murdering one race of people in the shortest time possible. Were they the same as killing through starvation, military means, etc? I’m not proposing that killing in the latter way was or is, “nicer”.
I think the definition and “status” of the Holocaust is problematic.
You can be sentenced and imprisoned in Germany if you deny the Holocaust in a public place, but I heard that the U. S. Supreme Court once ruled that placing a burning cross on a black family’s front lawn, whilst perhaps violating local ordinances against arson or criminal damage to property, could not be prosecuted as a hate crime: It was an act of constitutionally protected free expression instead…
I think the general argument is that to deny the Holocaust is to defame the dead. The problem with this, is that it makes the Jewish torment incomparable, because it denies or nearly minimizes the suffering of all other victims of genocide.
I mentioned numbers earlier. Some groups have suffered greater numerical loss of life from genocide. The Spanish slaughtered 10s of millions of indigenous people of Meso-America from the 1500s onwards. Stalin’s deliberate “terror famine” of 1932-33 killed at least 7 million Ukrainians. The Nazis destroyed millions of Jews, but that is a lower number than some genocides.
What about speed of killing? The Holocaust was relatively fast, but slow and deliberate obliteration is still murder through and through. Also, I’m not sure how it’s quantified, but wasn’t the slaughter of the Ukrainians much faster than the Nazis’ killing of the Jews? And, correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Hutus kill as many as 850,000 Tutsi people in less than three months in Rwanda? This rate is at least as comparable with the Holocaust industrial killing machine as a whole.
And when it comes to intention and purpose, I think that the Romani gypsies were probably the easiest to identify and quarantine for murder, more than the Jews both then, and now. Also, weren’t the Native Americans targeted in the same way? IMO, thinking about the Holocaust as the The Standard of genocide is part of and parcel of why, for example, it is often said that the widespread dying of Native Americans caused by diseases brought to them from Europe was entirely indirect and simply an “unintended tragedy”. California’s first governor, Peter Hardeman Burnett, said in 1851: “…a war of extermination will continue to be waged between the two races until the {Indian} race becomes extinct, must be expected.”?
Burnett had state troopers and mercenaries to see that through.
(He also stood over legislation to facilitate the exclusion of blacks from the state until 1926. One of his proposals was to force free blacks to leave the state, and to institute floggings, every six months, of any who continued to remain…)
Let’s look at this detail, too: didn’t many captives in the Nazi concentration camps died of disease or starvation, too? Of the 2 million or so Jews who died OUTSIDE the camps during the Holocaust, nearly half perished through “ghetto” conditions. Now, that’s a category that includes high levels of death from disease as well. I don’t say this to in any way diminish the events of the Warsaw Ghettos, or murder in the concentration camps, but the mythic, epic and almost religious aura of the Jewish Holocaust can cut off our understanding of other events and the suffering experienced by other peoples in the world.
The Polish scholar, Zygmunt Bauman, has written about this subject. He says that the Holocaust is used by Israel as:
http://mondoweiss.net/2011/09/zygmunt-bauman-palestinian-persecution-echoes-the-shoah-which-began-with-discrimination-ghettoes-and-pogroms.html
sam, therefore what happens is that there is a need to play down other genocides! We don’t want the Turks admitting they tried to exterminate the Armenians, for instance, because wouldn’t that plunder “the moral capital” of the Jewish people? Stealing the Holocaust from under their noses?
Up until a year or 2 ago, Israel generally supportsed Turkey’s denial that it exterminated 1.5 Armenians. And in gratitude, the Turkish government declared it agreed with Israel’s claim that the Holocaust is Unique.
http://www.salon.com/2010/06/16/israel_lobby_genocide_armenia/
How can there be a ‘superior breed’ of Holocaust?
Note too, how the word “Shoah” (Hebrew for great destruction) came about to describe this terrible event in Jewish history and set its Jewishness apart. I think the use of Maafa ( African Holocaust, from Swahili, afaik, meaning great tragedy/calamity) is used in a similar way to describe black dehumanization and killing of black people. I think though, that, whilst the “Shoah” has an epic and almost ‘religious’ power, “Maafa” is obscure by comparison…Germany still pays Isreal reparations, but what about the descendants of the enslaved Africans?
When the Holocaust is seen as unique and more, it belittles other genocide.
I think that governments will use the Jewish Holocaust to conceal/deny their own pasts and obscure current campaigns of mass violence. (Look at East Timor where a third of the indigenous population has been wiped out). What is true for the Jews is true for others, isn’t it?
Conceal a genocide, and it makes other genocide likely to recur.
@bulanik:
This is how I view these different genocides:
The holocaust is the highest form of the racism. It is the end of the line in racism. It was based solely on racial theories. Who was to be killed was decided by racial ideology, that is racism. It did not matter what you did or said or who you were, if you were a jew, you were going to die. Every single killing was done with race deciding the death. Even when they mass murdered their very own in the beginning, those mental patients were to be killed because they were un pure and un fit. They racially defect. That is why I see holocaust as the most terrible genocide, in the same league what the belgians did in Kongo and germans in Namibia.
Stalins genocides were not based on anything else but terror. One of his closest comrades and bat men was a jew Lazar Kaganovicth, the Wolf of Kremlin, a guy who killed at least tens of thousands. Head of the KGB back then was Lavrentin Beriya, a guy from Abkhasia. Stalin was georgian himself. Moltov was russian. Hrushtshev was ukranian. This was the gang. No racial selection, just the most ruthless and stone cold guys.
Stalin was a criminal. I do not mean criminal in philosophical sense but in a real sense. He was a bank robber in Georgia, a gangster. Later it was explained that he was collecting funds for the revolution but that is later propaganda. He was a gangster.
The way he saw the whole USSR was like any mafia boss. He was the boss of bosses and ran the giant state just like the corleonesi clan did run Cosa Nostra in Sicily in 1980′s and 90′s. His terror was not based on racial ideology nor it did have very much to do with any political agenda. It was terror to keep everyone in line. He also created huge slave work force for his projects, like electrifying the country, heavy industry, canals, siberian conquest etc.
Yes, he killed millions, according Mikhail Gorbatchov Stalin killed 10 – 14 million men but no one knows the actual number. There are whole generations missing in the statistics. But none of this was done because of racism and you could survive. Horrifying and terrible it was, but the racist foundation of the nazis makes the holocaust more horrifying in my mind.
In holocaust you had no chance if you were the wrong race. Period. Nothing could save you if you were seen as un fit or wrong by race defenitions. Nothing. If the nazis had won, they would have killed hudreds of millions. They said that after the jews, the slavic people will go. And think what the germans did on Namibia? What would have happened when the nazis would have turned their attention to Africa after winning the war? Yes, they propably would have tried to kill all the blacks in Africa and make it a nice germanic continent.
This is why I think the holocaust is more horrible than what Stalin did.
If Hitler had won he would have killed way more people, of course, but it would seem less terrible than the Holocaust does to us now. Because we would be soaked in Nazi propaganda and few would question it. Some would complain about how violent “the West” has become, but it would become the new normal, an unavoidable part of progress, of improving the species. Scientific racism would be alive and well. Jews, blacks and some bleeding hearts would complain but few would take them seriously.
Just look at the thread on children killed by Obama to see how WILLINGLY people excuse slaughter by those in power, how they are uncomfortable with calling Obama a killer. Why is that?
Hitler lost so he does not get to write the history books. The moral horror we feel at his deeds is mainly due to Allied propaganda – which we call “history” because we are made to learn it at school.
Notice how White Americans, who would never dream of excusing or playing down Hitler’s evils, do in fact try to excuse or play down slavery of Black Americans and the genocide of Native Americans. Why is that?
@abagond:
“Notice how White Americans, who would never dream of excusing or playing down Hitler’s evils, do in fact try to excuse or play down slavery of Black Americans and the genocide of Native Americans. Why is that?”
I have noticed. Because of the very same reasons which made the holocaust possible. Whites won in America and that is why the genocide of the natives is written the way it is. That is why the slavery is told the way it is. That is why there has never been a real national dealing with the past and thus present. That is why the racism which made the native genocide possible, which made millions fight FOR the slavery, is still alive.
Racism is doing well and is alive in USA very much more than in our countries, which are not racism free either. It is institutional. It is in the institutions. Like I have said many times: why the US government classifies people by racial defenitions? Why they need to know your ethnicity? What is it that requiers an US citizen to classify themselves on racial bases? For what this information is collected and for what purpose?
I met institutional american racism first hand back in the 80′s. Having a long black hair on and being in a car with native activists in the middle of a night was not the brightest thing to do but gave me an experience that clarified many things. Staring into assault rifles of some federal police men was also a way to get few facts clear very fast.
Today I’d propably end in prison via some terrorist clause in a similar situation. Another thing I dislike in USA. But still, I love the movies, music, food, arts etc.
@ sam
Yes, all of the above ^^ is spot on.
But when Abagond says “…Notice how White Americans, who would never dream of excusing or playing down Hitler’s evils, do in fact try to excuse or play down slavery of Black Americans and the genocide of Native Americans.”
And then asks “Why is that?”
Perhaps the Jewish Holocaust has to be maintained “more special” to justify US policy.
I mentioned in my earlier post about the “problem” of keep the Jewish Holocaust special. Why? Because the Holocaust is used by Israel as:
“… the certificate of its political legitimacy, a safe-conduct pass for its past and future policies, and, above all, as the advance payment for the injustices it might itself commit.”
Can we take another angle for a moment, and ask how does Israel get away with doing terrible things to the Palestinians and yet not be condemned in a way that sticks? Aren’t the silencing of critics and the lack of a counter-narratives is possible because of privilege and agency? And where does THAT come from?
The preservation of what is Modern and Western, and also what is “white” (and all-American) bound up together with big-time money-making. Agency is marvelous thing if you have it. And the Israeli government has it in abundance. There are laws against Holocaust Denial in many countries, in contrast to lesser-recognized genocides against the Native Americans or enslaved Africans in the Americas.
May we look at these examples:
*Israel’s nuclear weapons. (Yet Iraq was the target for WMDs and Iran under the microscope…) John Steinbach has written about this, and Theodore Taylor was kidnapped and imprisoned for whistleblowing about this.
Israel also had, or has, a policy of nuclear “ambiguity” with the US, which goes back decades that thwart leaks of this kind of information to the wider world.
*US aid to Israel, is something like $8million per day (PER DAY)….If I am not mistaken President Obama has met with the Israel about 10 times already (yet consider that Israel is a nation of about 7million people, and the Israel lobby groups pay for US politician to visit Israel…)
*And the powerful accusation of “anti-Semitism” to silence, bully and intimidate.
This is NEVER to be underestimated.
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/12/03/warsaw-ghetto/#comment-155022
@bulanik:
Yes, of course Israel uses the holocaust to justify its actions and policies and that is wrong. It is also very convinient to forget that the holocaust was not just about jews BUT all wrong people, gays included.
Perhaps the jewish part of holocaust is so high lighted in USA that they would forget the other victims. And that way forget their own genocides. I have sometimes wondered this german angle too: sometimes it has racist connotations as well. You know, “it is the germans”, “it is the german soul”, “the germans did it”…
Well, yes they did but with the help of polish, ukranian, russian, romanian, yugoslavian, kroatian, french, danish, norwegian, italian, finnish, swedish, estonian, lithuanian, latvian and swiss collaborators.
Forgot the hungarians who were reallyh into it and who today are once again voting for openly racist nationalistic party.
Does Abagond mean the ‘triumph’ of Patriotic-American brainwashing on white Americans? It’s probably their own special brand of Doublethink to defend evil in the world. This requires a combo of determination and moral bankruptcy to make it respectable. I’d guess that people that are uncomfortable with calling Obama a killer are essentially obedient but also need to be smug. They have to be both followers and pleasers, whilst hating doggedly.
I’m not sure how it works, but finding at least one example from world history or current affairs of someone else doing the same thing or worse, is essential. I think Hitler thought the extermination of Jews was do-able because, >i> “After all, who remembers the Armenian genocide?”
He did it because he could get away with it. Obama kills who he wants, and his adherents will cheer from the sidelines.
This method, of pointing the finger at some else, provides comfort.
But it never really convinces!
It’s as transparent and laughter-inducing as a 6 year-old being caught out and saying her sister did it WORSER last week.
When adults do this, though, en masse, they simply have no shame. Their moral compass is broken. And they will say, and do, ANYTHING, to hide the truth from themselves, and others. If they have an overblown sense of their own culture to back them up, like when the Nazi Party was in power, then that helps a ton. Did Hitler’s adoring followers let themselves feel any self-consciousness when they followed?
Their consciences were turned “off” and the were “on message”.
No place for doubt or self-recognition of wrong-doing.
Even though they were weak-minded, they considered themselves strong. They stood for something, and the world would and should be grateful — if only the rest of the world truly *understood* what good they were doing in it. Didn’t Hitler’s followers think they were on a divine mission?
The price of dissent was high. It’s so much easier and safer to fall in line.
Abagond asked why are some white Americans uncomfortable with calling Obama a killer? But, in recognizing that, what COMFORT does it bring?
No one will LIKE you then.
Calling Obama a killer exposes a patriotic white American to shame.
Yet shame, doubt and introspection requires humility.
Are those traits un-American? I recall hearing that the US needs no permit slip to defend itself.
Personally, I subscribe to the thesis that great evils generally, and the Holocaust in particular, were not executed by exceptional people. They were and are, acted out by ordinary people who couldn’t do any better than follow, sometimes quite creatively. But they did let themselves “normalize” the unthinkable..
There is some objection to this practice, for example, but how much so, even when most Americans know it’s plain “wrong”? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/AG-10B.JPG
This normalizing the unthinkable is the process whereby horrible, denigrating, murderous, and unspeakable acts become routine and are accepted as ‘the way things are done.’
It’s when someone totally identifies with an evil ideology.
Obedience studies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
@bulanik, abagond:
“Personally, I subscribe to the thesis that great evils generally, and the Holocaust in particular, were not executed by exceptional people. They were and are, acted out by ordinary people who couldn’t do any better than follow, sometimes quite creatively. But they did let themselves “normalize” the unthinkable.”
Yes, and Christopher Brownings book Ordinary Men tells that story better than any that I have read. It tells one story of the tragedy. 101st Reservist Police Batallion was a real hodge podge and mix of the whole Third reich society. It had reservists from old cops to young recruits, from noble men to former street urchins etc. Only few, if any, were members in the nazi party. Age range was between 20-45 if I remember correctly. They came from northern Germany, not from any of the Hitler’s strong support zones.
This reservist batallion was sent to Poland to secure the lines and maintain the order. Pretty soon they were given a difficult task. The commander of the batallion told the whole group that if any man wants to stay out for what ever reason, it is ok. There will be no punishments, no disciplinary actions etc. The commander himself was in tears while telling this. If I rermember correctly only five men out of 800 decided to stay out and from those 5, only two kept their desicion trough the war.
This difficult task into which the whole batallion took part voluntarily was elimination of the jews. They shot 38 000 jews on Poland. One guy participated in only one massacre, after which he refused to do any more. He was not shot, not punished, nor had any problems with the others or his officers after making his descion.
And these men were all ordinary men. Not the SS, not fanatical party members, not special forces etc. Just ordinary reservists, just like some of those guys in Abu Ghraib. Or those guys in Bosnia or Kosovo on all sides. Or those in Rwanda. Or those in Sand Creek in 1860′s.
by the way, the first recorded mention of the Holocaust comes from medieval England in 1190 AD. After the jewish population in York was murdered, the incident was recorded as Holocaust, from greek origin meaning something of burning etc.
@Abagond
Aren’t you uncomfortable with calling Palestinian freedom fighters terrorists? I am. If you are, why is that?
Because when others do evil things we recognize it simply as evil, but when we (or the people we see as ‘our people’, or the people on ‘our side’ of some issue) do evil things it’s because we(they) had a good reason to do it. Isn’t this way of thinking universal?
@ Eco
No, it is not universal. Not even among white people. Not everyone is sheep. Some people think for themselves. The government is not God.
@ Eco
I am uncomfortable with calling Palestinian freedom fighters terrorists. Some of what they do is wrong, of course, like suicide bombings. But in practice “terrorist” is used to excuse war crimes against them. It is used to dehumanize a whole people. Well, in fact, pretty much all Muslims. Not only is that wrong in itself, it leads Israel and America into breaking their own professed moral and political principles: torture, the Patriot Act, indiscriminate killing of civilians by drones, the war of “self-defence” against Gaza, outright murder of American citizens by the president, human rights abuses against Muslim Americans and Palestinians, etc.
@Abagond
This has very little to do with trusting a government. A government is only a possible example of a group we can see as the people who generally are on ‘our side’.
This is about not being able to be objectively moral. It’s about being inherently subjective and biased. Simplifying life to dichotomies – the bad guys and the good guys who are on ‘our side’, who represent us in some way. IMO we all think like that.
@Abagond
That’s kinda my point. They do very evil things, they try to kill civilians, but they have a good reason! Overall they are the victims! Yeah, ‘our guys’ always have a good reason to do unspeakably bad things. But we wouldn’t be seeing this in this exact way if a Palestinian suicide bomber killed someone we love or if a Gazan rocket fell in our backyard.
I’ve reread my recent comments and I feel I didn’t properly point out what I see as an analogy.
We (Abagond and I) both see Palestinians as the ‘good guys’ in the Gaza-Israel conflict. Overall, they are the victims and they are right. When they do evil things, in a way, we excuse it. Point out how they are still the lesser evil in the grand scheme of things. Even when they do something as objectively and inexcusably horrible as killing (or attempting to kill) civilians.
I think we are not that much different from people who see dead kids as collateral damage that was necessary to fight the terrorists and keep America safe.
I think this is ultimately about who we see as ‘our side’, as ‘the good guys’ in a particular situation. In our eyes the ‘good guys’ always have a good reason do do bad things and always are (to a degree) excused.
“eco
I think this is ultimately about who we see as ‘our side’, as ‘the good guys’ in a particular situation. In our eyes the ‘good guys’ always have a good reason do do bad things and always are (to a degree) excused.”
Linda says,
Very true!
Blind faith, nationalism, and societal indoctrination is what causes most people to view their country, culture, religion, etc…as the “right” one, the correct path —
it takes alot for most people to attempt to “see the other side” because that means they have to question the essense of “who” they are as individuals and what they’ve been taught and believe as a member of a particular group — no one wants to think that they/their ancestors got it wrong!
It’s not easy questioning and disowning aspects of one’s own cultural philosophy.
[...] Warsaw Ghetto (abagond.wordpress.com) [...]
[...] Warsaw Ghetto (abagond.wordpress.com) [...]
Linda said:
That’s probably THE hardest thing for anyone, or any nation, to do.
If your own country was the theatre for such a defining moment in the past, with your parents/grandparent being the main players in that, it’d shape your identity: so, wouldn’t the outsiders’ examination of that burn your pride?
I’ve tried to make sense of this reasoning purpose.
Polish gentile and Jew lived in close physical proximity and became economically inter-dependent over a very long period throughout Poland. When it came to it, both became victims of Nazi barbarity; after the Jews and Romani, the Poles were the most tormented national group, and millions were murdered during that time.
Yet, the ethnic, gentile Poles were also witnesses to the destruction of their neighbour-Jews. Most were passive witness who did nothing to aid their neighbours, but nor did these Poles assist the Germans in destroying them.
However, by remaining passive, it is arguable, they took on a kind of bystander guilt and complicity. That could be an “uncomfortable” feeling for anyone to reconcile themselves with.
A different minority became the so-called Righteous Gentiles who risked their own lives to save Jews. But it’s impossible to guess how many gentile Poles had sympathy for their Jewish neighbours but were paralyzed into inaction by utter fear.
Yet, am I alone in wondering how much indifference there was to Jewish suffering, or even relief/joy that the Jews were being removed at last?
I ask because sometimes, I’ve noticed a real confusion or, crossed-wires between what the West means by ‘anti-Semitic’ and what Poland means by it. It’s plain to me that what the West perceives as “anti-Semitic” is not as that in eastern Europe (in my experience, at least). I might have heard of, or seen an example of anti-Semitic ‘banter’ in Poland, but I doubt if the person behind it even knew what a Semite was!
Cultural-specific sensitivities to language/imagery are not universal.
The closest thing I can liken Polish anti-Semitism to is the white British liking for the Golliwog: harmless imagery of childhood memories to some, is deeply offensive to others. The white British just don’t see what all the fuss is about…
What struck me about what I saw in Poland, heard from Poles themselves, picked up from elsewhere, was this overall sense that: the Jews there, at that time, did not even dream that the order to kill Jews would apply to all Jews, while the ethnic Poles realized right away that no Jew would survive the war. I’m not sure why, but common-sense speculation makes me feel that this was so because people draw conclusions about the future according to this: their own convenience. Self-interest.
Generally, very generally, I came whenever the subject of Polish Jews arose among ethnic Poles it was not an interesting topic for a conversation.
There a number of reasons for this. Nevertheless, as a topic, the Jew was surely an interesting topic for a family discussion!
I wonder could it have been so, that if an ethnic Pole had a Jewish friend who gave them things for safekeeping, and that Jews then ‘obligingly’ departed to Treblinka, the desired outcome might well have been that the matter was finished. More possessions and a clear conscience to boot….no problem there.
But, what if that Jew re-appeared? Wanted to continue, and remind their gentile friend of their possessions? Surely then, a topic for a convo!
If that Jew remained gone for forever, there will be no lodged claims before a court of law, and no shadow cast on an unblemished Polish name.
Why give anything back? If possessions are returned, then others will come and take things away. Wasn’t it easier to say “those things were confiscated by the police” or whoever, it was WAR and OCCUPATION after all. A simple “Please don’t come both us anymore” would be remedy enough.
I heard once that for those Jews that returned and requested their possessions, the Jews themselves had to pay for its return. Why? Because the claim was that Poles had had to ransom themselves from the Germans, being judged guilty by them for the Jewish possessions they had.
But, nothing usually came from that because after a couple of months, everything was in order; the Jew had perished and the matter, closed.
The reasoning seems to have been that, where did the Jews get such wealth anyway? Wasn’t it from the Polish soil? The time had come for them to repay their debt to Poland. So basically, swings and roundabouts, and it’ll all come out in the wash..
Correction* Generally, very generally, I came to understand that whenever the subject of Polish Jews arose among ethnic Poles it was not an interesting topic for a conversation.
Correction* A simple “Please don’t come bothering us anymore” would be remedy enough.