Zoe Saldana and Nina Simone
Zoe Saldana is set to play Nina Simone in “Nina”, a film about the jazz singer’s life. Filming starts in October 2012. Simone was a dark-skinned black woman, Zoe Saldana is a light-skinned Latina who looks nothing like her, but apparently has the star-power to get the film off the ground.
Mary J. Blige and Nina Simone
The film has been in the works since about 2006. Mary J. Blige was set to play the lead. She is a singer and looks much more like Simone, but has less acting talent than Saldana. With Blige as lead they could not raise enough money to start filming.
Because of the way the script is written, this is one of those films that could either win an Oscar or become a mess. It all turns on the acting talent of the lead.
Blige’s acting was probably not up to it. Maybe not Saldana’s either, but her Hollywood name and sex appeal to white men should sell plenty of tickets. Still, it is hard seeing Saldana being as believable as, say, Jamie Foxx as Ray Charles or Angela Bassett as Tina Turner.
Adepero Oduye, who played the lead in “Pariah” (2011), looks way more like Simone and has more acting talent, but has little box-office pull:
Nina Simone and Adepero Oduye
The trope here is “But Not Too Black”: leading black characters, particularly females, particularly those with a love story, tend to be played by the light-skinned or mixed-race. The thinking is that they appeal more to white audiences – because they are “not too black” – and even to black audiences – because of colourism. You see it more in film and television aimed at whites than at blacks.
Saldana herself is both black and Latina. As far as I know she has never distanced herself from either. She was born in New Jersey to Dominican parents. She is #45 on Maxim’s Hot 100 for 2012, the highest ranking black actress.
“Nina” is an independent film being put together by the British companies Londinium Films and Ealing Studios. It will probably be shown first in Europe and later in limited release in the States.
Cynthia Mort, a White American television producer, is the writer and director. She has worked on the television shows “Tell Me You Love Me”, “Will & Grace” and “Roseanne”. She was Jodie Foster’s girlfriend.
Mort bought the film rights for Clifton Henderson’s account of Simone’s life. He was her nurse-turned-manager. David Oyelowo of “Red Tails” (2012) will play him.
The parts for Richard Pryor and Lorraine Hansberry have yet to be cast.
The Nina Simone estate, directed by Lisa Simone Kelly, Simone’s daughter, is against the film in its current form: it shows a made-up love affair between Simone and Henderson. Henderson was openly gay. She likes Saldana as an actress but prefers Viola Davis or Kimberly Elise to play her mother. She owns the rights to some of Simone’s songs, but apparently not enough of them to stop the film from going forward: Mort blew her off.
Postscript:
See also:
I think she is a decent actress, But In my humble opinion This role should go to Viola Douglass. What are they going to do? Use alot of dark makeup and prosthetic(fake nose)? I don’t know this just seems wrong to me. But we shall see..
I meant Viola Davis.
Wow. I just don’t see it. Saldano pulling this off is a looooong shot. Viola Davis is good, so wood Kimberly Elise. And you’re right, Saldana has never distanced herself from her roots.,Afro Latino
I’m sorry that I can’t be more eloquent in my opinion, but this just f*cking disgusts me.
But, at the same time, Tommy Sotomayor said it best. Black folks sit up here and one-drop mixed people all day saying they’re Black. So, when Hollywood does sh*t like this, Black folks who have done this can’t complain.
“Adepero Oduye, who played the lead in “Pariah” (2011), looks way more like Simone and has more acting talent, but has little box-office pull”
Yes! On both counts, sadly…
As much as I like Zoe Saldano, she is mixed-raced. Her mother is stereotypical looking Puerto Rican and her father was Dominican. She takes pride in her heritage and so did Nina Simone.
just because Zoe doesn’t deny being part African-descended, does not mean it is OK for her to represent and play Nina Simone, a black American woman, who sang about her life as a dark-skinned black woman in America, trying to take pride in and love her black skin and features.
Yes, Zoe really would have to rely on her theatrical skills because she has no historic family antedotes to pull from.
Here is Zoes family, please tell me how much history her mother or her abuela can pass on to her about how hard it was to be a dark-skinned woman in America back in the 1960′s.
I love Saldana but I have to say no on this one. She just doesnt look much like Nina Simone. I understand that she is proud of her african ancestry but her family comes from an entirely different culture. I would rather see her play the role of a famous Afro-hispanic caribbean singer (La Lupe?) although I doubt Hollywood will be doing a movie about an afro-latina anytime soon.
@someguy
I loved your comment.
As someone African, i don’t understand this one drop rule you all have. Most africans don’t look at a half black someone as black. They are mixed race, doesn’t make them less african but they are not seen as fully black. In fact we practice the reverse of one drop rule here.
As for Zoe Saldana playin Nina…it angers me. There seems to be a systematic erosion of black women (btw most black women in the world are dark and brown skinned) in film. Wasn’t it just recently that some Nigerians were protesting Thandie Newton playing the lead role in Half a Yellow Sun…a book about the Biafra Wars?
I have no issues with light skin black people after all they are still black but we need to fight for equal and fair representation of all shades of black esp the shade that most black people look like.
Yes, the Pariah chick wold be perfect
http://madamenoire.com/195255/colorism-in-the-abe-lincoln-vampire-hunter-film-and-why-it-does-matter/
http://www.yourblackworld.net/2012/07/black-news/yvette-carnell-why-did-a-biracial-actress-portray-harriet-tubman-in-abraham-lincoln-vampire-hunter/
Oh, and I’d like 35 percent royalties, thank you..
@Linda
“….just because Zoe doesn’t deny being part African-descended, does not mean it is OK for her to represent and play Nina Simone, a black American woman, who sang about her life as a dark-skinned black woman in America, trying to take pride in and love her black skin and features” and – she is the wrong individual for this role.”
Exactly. Personally. I would’ve loved to see India Arie play Ms. Simone, but that’s just ‘silly’ in view of the mainstream-film industry’s traditional perception of how ‘financially viable’ a dark-skinned black woman is in a lead role:
@ judyneno
@ Linda
judyneno says:
Linda and I had a similar conversation which touched on that point recently, where this was said:
“Casting is a tricky issue:
I heard that the Tim Burton film Abe Lincoln Vampire Hunter cast a black+white bi-racial actress (Jaqueline Fleming) to play the part of Harriet Tubman. It’s a fantasy horror movie, but Harriet Tubman was a real person. And, she was most certainly not half-Danish like Ms Fleming: http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2791355904/nm0281693
And, what about Thandie Newton cast as an Igbo in the film adaptation of Half a Yellow Sun , about the Nigerian/Biafran war? Nigeria has excellent Igbo actresses. Ms Thandie is certainly a good actress, but she does not look the part, and the implications of casting her is very poor, considering there is an epidemic (I heard) of skin bleaching in Nigeria.
But, was Don Cheadle less convincing in Hotel Rwanda because he wasn’t from the region? Sophie Okonedo played a Tutsi in the same film, and she is half Nigerian/half Jewish…. Should Angela Bassett not have been cast as Rosa Parks because her skin isn’t as light as the Ms Parks’?.
…..Did you see Jill Scott playing a Batswana in that ladies detective series set in Botswana? I don’t think she looked or sounded Batswana – ….”
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2009/05/12/zoe-saldana/#comment-142368
JudyNeno , very enlightening point of view coming from someone from Kenya about how Africans can view themselves and their “blackness”,and that they do make these distinctions that have been argued on here…
In an idealistic artistic world, any actress should be able to play any charactor, after all, getting outside themselves and playing someone else is what becoming an actor is all about
But, in the absolute racist world of the world wide media, and their corporate sit down meetings dictating to each other what should be done in the false notion of “what sells” , it is upsetting to see this.
Angela Bassett comes to mind as a very talented actress who has some box office credibility , who could play this part..
What is perplexing here is that it is a British company making this, you would think they would be out of the corporate mentality loop.
But, if you rent a movie these days, at the beginning, there are 5 or 6 production companies involvolved, it seems, to get a movie produced and put out, so , maybe that sentances it to the corporate racist mind set. Being that a few of these giant entertainment corporations arent American, this film will be a British production, it seems this corporate mentality goes outside of USA borders
Any time you get a small handful of people sitting around making desicians what will sell with their biased limited points of veiw, but, with immence corporate machine hype to set their limited veiws in motion, the result is strange mind boggling casting desicians.
@satan….still slow, I see….haha
We also blogged about this. Nothing against Saldana but she’s just not right for this role. I too like Viola Davis for the part. There has to be an ability to suspend disbelief for the viewer and Saldana (in my opinion) would have trouble doing that in this role.
http://www.theurbanpolitico.com/2012/08/zoe-saldana-race-skin-tone-and-hollywood.html
Interesting comments. The issue of colorism in Hollywood is of course well documented, and there has been controversy about the ethnicity of casting dating back to the blackface minstrel shows, Liz Taylor as Cleopatra, Mira Nair casting that Italian-American actrexx in “Perez Family Values” (over the likes of Rosie Perez, Jennifer Lopez, etc.), Angie Jolie playing the wife of Daniel Pearl, etc.
I hear BR’s comment about “in an ideal world, any actor should be able to play any part”, and yet there is the issue of verisimiltude. In the case of Nina Simone, the darkness of her skin, the fullness of her lips and hips, the natural hairstyle, all of this was integral to her life, her art and her presence. For those of us who love and respect Nina, casting Zoe feels like a betrayal of these elements. Even though we may also love Zoe Saldana as an actress, it fees as odd as it might be to cast, say, Usain Bolt as Bill Gates, or Zach Galifinakis as Anna Nicole Smith. In a very real sense, Zoe will have to be engaging in a form of drag to play this role, and for Nina Simone fans, seeing Nina’s life story depicted by a drag queen feels demeaning and insulting to the important legacy of her life and work.
I going to make a film about the life of President Ronald Reagan starring Russell Wong.
[...] Zoe Saldana is set to play Nina Simone in “Nina”, a film about the jazz singer’s life. Filming starts in October 2012. Simone was a dark-skinned black woman, Zoe Saldana is a light-skinned Latina who looks nothing like her, but apparently has the star-power to get the film off the ground. … Adepero Oduye, who played the lead in “Pariah” (2011), looks way more like Simone and has more acting talent, but has little box-office pull: The trope here is “But Not Too Black”: leading black characters, particularly females, particularly those with a love story, tend to be played by the light-skinned or mixed-race. The thinking is that they appeal more to white audiences – because they are “not too black” – and even to black audiences – because of colourism. You see it more in film and television aimed at whites than at blacks. Saldana herself is both black and Latina. As far as I know she has never distanced herself from either. She was born in New Jersey to Dominican parents. She is #45 on Maxim’s Hot 100 for 2012, the highest ranking black actress. [...]
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@Bulanik…Yes! Yes! Now SHE definitely has everything needed! The look, the voice — the lived experience: http://youtu.be/EjurvxuoLkg
@Deb – India is a beautiful, talented woman — you know what you are saying,
She is the woman for the part.
But, of course she would be over-looked for the very reasons of her lived experience that makes ‘invisible’ and marginalizes India Arie, and women like her, in the film, music and modelling industries.
Damn that.
This sickens me. I’m so tired of this $hit.
[...] Zoe Saldana is set to play Nina Simone in “Nina”, a film about the jazz singer’s life. Filming starts in October 2012. Simone was a dark-skinned black woman, Zoe Saldana is a light-skinned Latina who looks nothing like her, but apparently has the star-power to get the film off the ground. … Adepero Oduye, who played the lead in “Pariah” (2011), looks way more like Simone and has more acting talent, but has little box-office pull: The trope here is “But Not Too Black”: leading black characters, particularly females, particularly those with a love story, tend to be played by the light-skinned or mixed-race. The thinking is that they appeal more to white audiences – because they are “not too black” – and even to black audiences – because of colourism. You see it more in film and television aimed at whites than at blacks. Saldana herself is both black and Latina. As far as I know she has never distanced herself from either. She was born in New Jersey to Dominican parents. She is #45 on Maxim’s Hot 100 for 2012, the highest ranking black actress. [...]
@Bulanik…“But, of course she would be over-looked for the very reasons of her lived experience that makes ‘invisible’ and marginalizes India Arie, and women like her, in the film, music and modelling industries. Damn that.”
I’m right there with you!
I agree that India Arie would be perfect for the part..
I thought about India as well, I feel she could capture the deep soulfulness needed that was Nina Simone. Yeah Saldana would be wrong for this role.
@Bulanik: You called it right on this one for me.
I just saw one of the youtubes of India Arie ,and, she looked fantastic and could be fantastic for the part
She is quite lovely and talented. Such an underrated artist. She is one of my favorites. Beautiful, soulful. They really should consider her.
Viola Davis gets my vote.
She resembles Nina Simone somewhat; she’s attractive; and she has some serious acting chops. I don’t know if Miss Davis can even carry a tune, but a singing voice can definitely be dubbed in if she can’t.
Viola Davis would be a first choice for me, with India.Arie an extremely close second. I am opposed to Ms. Saldana getting this role, not just based on aesthetics, but also because of the colorism being pushed. A year ago Saldana made the comment that her success in Hollywood was attributed to her not being lazy and complaining about racism in Hollywood. She admonished black American actresses to stop, whining about not getting roles, and suggested that they be more active in seeking work like her. Seriously? Something about that disturbed me. She gets to pretend that her ‘not being to black’ not being perceived as ‘to black looking, to black American female has nothing to do with, her success.
@oyan also have you notced in every movie Zoe is in she is always paired with a white male for her love interest in a movie. I’ve never seen her paired with a blk male in any of her movies.
“son2380
@oyan also have you notced in every movie Zoe is in she is always paired with a white male for her love interest in a movie. I’ve never seen her paired with a blk male in any of her movies”
Linda says,
She was Nick Cannons love interest in the movie “Drumline”
I watched it the other day on BET…didn’t know she was in the movie until I saw her and said, ‘that chick with the doo-rag on her head looks like Zoe Saldana’.
“Bulanik
Exactly. Personally. I would’ve loved to see India Arie play Ms. Simone, but that’s just ‘silly’ in view of the mainstream-film industry’s traditional perception of how ‘financially viable’ a dark-skinned black woman is in a lead role”
Linda says,
for sure, India Arie or even Lauryn Hill. I like Lauryn and she has acted in a movie before with Adrian Brody.
At least, she would bring some authenticity to the character and being in the entertainment industry herself, can empathize with being a dark-skinned female artist trying to be taken seriously for her art in an industry that prizes looks and caters to the mainstreams stereotypes.
India Arie for the part?
Not for me. When I’ve seen her in interviews she has never conveyed enough presence to me that made me think I’d want to see her in film.
Lauryn Hill
does have presence; let her audition. Looks wise? Lauryn is beautiful. Zoe is beautiful. But Lauryn’s beauty is more “serious” whereas Saldana’s is more “cute” So Lauryn fits the more “serious” looks of Simone.
Another candidate: Erykah Badu!
Erykah certainly has an eccentric side like Nina
^Amen
Viola Davis is too old. India Arie please
Rutina Wesley was mentioned on another site as a good candidate for the role. I have to disagree as, other than skin tone, Rutina looks no more like Nina Simone than does Zoe Saldana.
No Rutina Wesley. I love her but she doesn’t have those features either. Lauryn Hill doesn’t have the features but I can suspend disbelief and watch her in the role of Nina
India Arie would be good
I agree about India Arie. She’d be perfect, as would the girl from Pariah.
Zoe has always said she was black. She’s not half-Latina. Racially, she identifies as black. Culturally, she identifies as Hispanic.
But, she is NOT right for the part. Not at all. Nina’s skin color was important in her life. She sang about it and discussed it frequently.
Oh, this is just disgusting.
Adepero Oduye is just perfect.
I don’t see how you can debate to the death about the validity of the one-drop rule in one breath and then complain when mixed race women represent black women in the next…
Can Zoe sing?
Why do idiots act like being “Latinia” is a race? It’s a culture, some of these people on here are idiots. She’s a black Latina – not just the infamous “blank and colorless latina.” There are pale and brown Latinas by brown I mean “colored” meaning melanin in ones skin.
Anyway, next thought….Sadly, some idiots think they’re are 180 races, “Oh I’m Romanaian, Italian, French etc.” That’s a nationality, how sad, educate and elevate yourselves. And how on earth is she “mixed” to some? Whatever, I am confused by this, Zoe identifies as “black” because she isn’t stupid, what else what would she look like “white” or “Asian”
Plus, she looks like my sister, to bad Zoe (as far as I’ve seen) never touched a black man in a movie. She’s just a sex symbol for white men. Thanks to her and Halle Berry, White men chase black females who resemble her and you can’t go outside without some white dude trying “hitting” on you and thinking you’re “down” with interracial …….Anyway, rant aside.
She is a pretty girl but she looks nothing like Nina Simone (I love her music.) Huge fail, I think even Oprah could do a better job or Lauren Hill.
Here is a thought, if they give the role to zoe saldano, boycott the movie. I will.
Dont go watch the movie then afterwards “debate” whether she portrayed Nina Simone accurately or not. By then the studio will have got the money in the bank and they’ll be laughing all the way.
Ever thought they do this to get all this publicity? White men will go watch it because zoe appeals to them sexually, white women because they can more easily related to lighter skinned females and black people will go so they can complain about colorism afterwards.
Win win for the money men.
Here is a thought, why don’t some black producers get together and make a serious movie to portray the double standards of Hollywood. Attribute white qualities(moral, adventurous, pioneering etc) to black people and black qualities (brutish, somewhat uncivilized, unwilling to let go of the past) to white people. Get some well known actors and do these for real. Watch the viewing (white) public get so irate, dumbfounded and confused to the point this sh*t makes it onto fox news at the misrepresentation before there eyes. All the while laugh all the way to the bank and get a real serious discussion going because you know what white people who see the comments brought up in this post would say, “What’s the big deal? Here they go again, complaining.”
@The Cynic
“I don’t see how you can debate to the death about the validity of the one-drop rule in one breath and then complain when mixed race women represent black women in the next…”
I tend to agree with that statement, but you might be missing the point as to why they are debating if Zoe Saldana should portray Nina Simone. Perhaps b/c Hollywood would never cast someone to play Marilyn Monroe who did not at least look like her.
Firstly, I don’t think Saldana is the right person to portray Simone, neither was Blige. But stop this nonsense about Saldana being LIGHT SKINNED. that woman IS FAR from being light skinned. I notice whenever a Black woman is deemed attractive people tend to call her light-skinned when she is clearly not. there were even people who called whitney houston light and she’s far from it. Saldana is brown and leaning towards being a darker skinned Black woman. Nextly, Saldan CAN sing, you hear her sing a little in that movie guess who, although she’s not a “singer,” in a technical sense, but she has a nice voice.
But, is she right for this part NO i DON’T BELIEVE SO. But it isn’t because she’s so-called light skinned because she’s not light skinned, it’s just cuz she’s not right for the part.
Someone who would have bene BEAUTIFUL I think would be either Kimberly Elise, as Simone’s daughter wanted, or Anika Noni rose SHE WOULD HAVE been PERFECT for that part I feel. She has a beautiful voice, she’s a good actress, a beautiful woman just right.
and btw i don’t think viola davis “looks” anymore like Simone than Saldana does…why is it that some people assume just because two people are dark skinned they look similar? Davis looks nothing like SImone. Although her acting talent alone would qualify her, I don’t know about her singing. But looking like Simone come on , no she doesn’t.
Peanut…Though India Arie is still my first choice, for the reasons I gave somewhere up-thread (like Hollywood really cares what I think!) — I forgot about Anika Noni Rose. She could, very well pull it off, but even better, Kimberly Elise! Thanx for reminding me of both…
[...] know I’m a little late on this one, but I have to comment after reading a blog post by abagond about the controversy surrounding the fact that Saldana has been cast for the upcoming film about [...]
@ Peanut,
Uhmm Saldano is light skinned. She is of a light brown complexion which means she is light in appearance, not dark. Nina Simone has heavy African features whilst Saldano does not.
I think the issue here is whether heavy African features are acceptable for the big screen in terms of pulling in a big audience. Notice all the names suggested have heavy african features. That is there main resemblance to Nina.
Hi guys and gals.
I’ve been reading comments here and there and I’m curious. What constitutes light-skinned and dark-skinned? Please forgive my ignorance.
saldana is about the same color as mary j blige, neither of them are light skinned.
i noticed that the picture abagond posted made saldana look lighter than she appears in most films i’ve seen her in. but she’s about blige’s color so i don’t understand how she can be light and blige isnt light?
and i really don’t like the term “heavy african features” i don’t know what u mean by that there a wide range of african features. so i don’t understand that, two things that make people black having brown or dark skin and HAIR, above all our hair is what makes us black.
@ leigh,
i consider someone light skin if i have to look at them and think twice about whether or not they’re actually black. If I can’t look at you and see that you’re obviously black, then that’s what tells me you’re not really black. you’re either a light skinned person or you’re white.
Peanut, why are you scared of who you are?
Heavy african features equals plump lips, flat nose plus thick in appearance if that’s the proper term. i.e. an image that fits the stereotype. Not all Africans are like this, maybe not even the majority, but that is the stereotype. Nina fits it almost perfectly, Zoe is like the opposite of it. Mary J blige is waaaaaay closer to it than Zoe.
Ask yourself, why does the term “Heavy African Features” have a negative connotation in your head, whilst “Heavy European Features” doesn’t? Or at least I assume it doesn’t, maybe you just don’t like “Heavy anything Features”.
The answer is why Zoe got the role. OSIT.
@Peanut
Firstly, I don’t think Saldana is the right person to portray Simone, neither was Blige.
ha! “neither was Blige.”
Peanut, thank you for saying that. I couldn’t get that no one had said that yet. I totally agree, Blige was a bad choice too.
and btw i don’t think viola davis “looks” anymore like Simone than Saldana does…why is it that some people assume just because two people are dark skinned they look similar? Davis looks nothing like SImone. Although her acting talent alone would qualify her, I don’t know about her singing. But looking like Simone come on , no she doesn’t.
—-
Pardon me, but who is it here that is assuming that dark skin people look similar? Would you mind pointing to specific examples. And just in case you skipped over some of the comments, it was one of mine which first pointed out that dark-skinned Rutina Wesley looks nothing like dark-skinned Nina Simone.
And BTW, I never claimed that Viola Davis is Simone’s identical twin. What I said was that she resembles her” somewhat” — meaning that Davis’ dark complexion and rounded nose and fuller lips are a much closer match to the late Nina Simone’s dark complexion and rounded nose and fuller lips than are Saldana’s light brown skin, longer nose and thin lips.
Talk about making assumptions….
why are you calling them HEAVY though, don’t flip this aroudn, why can’t you say RICH features? Heavy there is nothing HEAVY about my features…they don’t weigh my head down when I walk and finally there are many africans who don’t have so called “heavy noses,” and they’re dark skinned and just as african as anyone else…so i don’t get you.
uhhhi wasn’t talking or referring to you fiamma i was referring to the people who claim that saldana doesn’t look like simone and thus isn’t right for the part, but in the same breath claim viola davis does neither of them look like her.
the only reason i can GUESS AT for why some people think viola davis looks more like simone than saldana is because IN THEIR MIND viola and simone are both dark skinned with so called “HEAVY features” as some like to call it, but the truth is viola davis isnt the same color as simone neither is saldana and color aside NEITHER of them look like her in my opinion and saldana isn’t light as people say she is.
@ Peanut
Totally agree. Saldana is not light skin. An example of someone with light skin is Tischa Campbell.
@ Wilson
“heavy African features” is a silly notion b/c indigenous Africans have many types of facial features. Maybe you meant “stereotypically African features” but “plump lips, flat nose plus thick in appearance” are not universal. Many indigenous Africans, such as Robert Mugabe, have thin lips. And many indigenous Africans like Paul Kagame, have thin noses
look at anika in this picture: http://toppixautographs.net/roseanikanoni2.jpg
and listen to her singing this song, i can’t BELIEVE no one considered her for this part SHE CAN SING!
i have to be honest, i have a bit of a girl crush on anika noni rose, i just think she’s so beautiful, classy and i love her voice. she doesn’t get her due credit
The movie will be an epic fail to black folks because of the casting. On the other hand, it will likely get more love and attention from white audiences for obvious reasons.
In the media only white audiences matter.
@ Peanut:
Ahh, okay. I have a better understanding now. Thanks for your explanation.
@ brothawolf:
Ain’t that the truth.
Hey,
I didn’t say such features are universal to african people. Just that, that is the stereotype image and some africans do have such features. There is nothing wrong with having plump lips, a flat nose etc.
Peanut, I honestly think you are in denial and am not saying that to hurt you.
This is meant to be a film that reflects what actually happened and to start off by changing the ethnicity of the main character from who they are meant to represent is just plain wrong. Yes Zoe is black according to the american one drop rule, but she is half latina in reality. Nina’s parents were both black.
Do you think they’d ever cast a half white half black guy to play Elvis Presley? Or any other mixture at all other than white american???
@Wilson
No you didn’t say it was “the stereotype”, you said “heavy African features”. I pointed out that you were referring to “stereotypically African features”
There is no consensus or hard and fast rules among Blacks as to whom qualifies as light-skinned, which is the most contentious category apparently.
For some, only fair skinned individuals such as Tisha Campbell or Mariah Carey should be considered light-skinned.
For others, the light skinned category has a range of shades (which is how I heard it categorized when I was growing up) and includes fair skin through ‘cafe au lait’ – which covers the skin tones of, say, Alicia Keys, Cassie and Halle Berry, Ice-T. .
Below is how I would categorize other shades among Blacks:
Brown-skinned (or Medium Brown) includes Whitney Houston, Oprah Winfrey and Gabrielle Union, Ice Cube, Queen Latifa, LL cool J, Shemar Moore, Zoe Saldana
Dark Brown includes Naomi Campbell, Taye Diggs
Dark skinned includes Wesley Snipes, Viola Davis, Alek Wek, Nina Simone
[I have been described by others as being "light-skinned", but as it is a sensitve topic, I mostly try to describe my actual shade (honey beige / light honey) and leave it to others to categorize it according to their own viewpoint.]
@ wilson no i just don’t understand what u mean becuase i see just as many black people with features like saldana as i do with features like Simone.
saldana isnt the right choice for the part as I said, but I do not see her as “light skinned,” and it doesn’t make sense to call her such when she is the same shade a mary j blige and most people don’t consider her light skinned at all.
From what I can tell from pics Mary J Blige is brown-skinned, and so is Zoe Sulatana from most pics I’ve seen of her.
I just looked at some Google Images of Nina Simone and she appeared to be more of a shade of dark brown rather than the very deep, dark chocolate shades of Wesley Snipes, Viola Davis and Rutina Wesley.
As to all these examples of colorism, it’s been a while but I don’t recall any of this nitpicking of skin shade or features surrounding the casting of dark brown-skinned, black-haired Denzel Washington in the role oft he much lighter-skinned, sandy-haired, broader-nosed Malcolm X. Thank goodness, as I can’t imagine a well-known actor who would have been a better choice than Denzel for that particular role — skin shade be damned.
Yes Fiamma, interesting what you say about Washington playing Malcolm. But the discussion here is in many different thematic locations. One of those themes seems to be “Saldana is not black enough.” With Denzel whatever the contrast in skin shade between him and Malcolm, no one doubts Denzel’s “blackness.”
As a side point thinking back to the Malcolm X movie, I remember thinking that Denzel’s hair should have a red tinge to it. Malcolm describes his red hair in his book. I didn’t think too much about the skin shades as I knew they wouldn’t apply makeup to Denzel to lighten him. I knew that would never be done.
@Peanut Thank you for helping me to understand my husband’s point of view about color. He feels the same way about ” light-skinned” he sees everyone basically as brown, and if you have to look to see if they’re white or not, then they are light-skinned in his eyes. He doesn’t categorize every shade of brown; I thought he needed glasses at one point. And you’re not in denial about African features and skin color to me your perspective is spot on.
Perhaps adopting such views ( ie. not nitpicking skin shades) would help to stop colorism.
SW6 hit the nail on the head.
Zoe is not black enough to play Nina Simone. She’s only half-black.
Why can’t someone who is full black play her? Was Nina Half Black??? I have no problem with mixed race actors playing black characters, I just have a problem with them playing real historical black people who were full black.
@ Resjan,
Yes the features I mentioned are stereotypical african features.
Can I ask you guys something, are stereotypical african features offensive?
I am getting the impression that some might consider them to be.
was*
@ Jodee,
Well a white person can come and say, perhaps not nitpicking skin color would help stop racism…
Well according to historical data, those with dark skin or the darkest tone would gravitate to the bottom and they won’t have a means of fighting back because they can’t use what is used against them as a defense.
@Wilson
I may have pointed out a hidden theme. But I don’t agree with that theme.
•Saldana is a black latina, so she is black, the end.
(Let’s do that again, a little differently.)
•Nina Simone is a black american (with West African background) (there is no cute invented word to condense the information like there is with “Latina”)
(Let’s do it again.)
•Thandie Newton is half cast.(this term is now antiquated I think.)
(again)
•Mariah Carey is biracial.
(one more time.)
•Iman is a black Somalian (“East African” background)
Would Newton, Carey or Iman be a first choice or a last choice for that matter to be cast in a film to play Simone? No, I don’t think so. Would it be because they aren’t black enough? No, I don’t think so. They are, all of them, black. It would be because they are too far away in physical likeness from Simone. And Simone isn’t like Cleopatra; everyone remembers what Nina Simone looked like.
If Saldana is not black enough then Simone must be more black than Saldana. Maybe I am more black than you Wilson. Maybe Abagond is more black than Obama. You see how this degrades pretty quickly? Simone is not more black than these women. Black is an idea. All of those women identify as black and (I am presuming) were raised black. (I consider someone to have been “raised black” even if they had a sole parent that was white, but there was some enduring black influence that went into the person’s identity and they chose [consciously or unconsciously] to be black.)
And to Linda’s point, the shade of black that one comes in IS a factor in the experiences that one has in America (we’ll stick to America – probably the winner for most racist nation on Earth.) Linda said (i’m gonna give the spirit not the words) Saldana does not have a dark black woman experience of life. So it is not that Saldana is not black enough. It is that she has no pool of experience to draw from that is similar enough to Simone’s experiences, to convincingly play the part. Charlie Parker said, “if you haven’t lived it, then it won’t come out of your horn.”
I have to cosign with Peanut and Wilson regarding the use of the phrase “strong/heavy” African features. For one thing I’ve never heard ‘strong/heavy’ as a descriptor for other races unique feature. Second, as Peanut noted there are a host of African features. Keen features are very common for black Horn Africans and are seen in West Africa. Rounder features are prevalent in West/Central Africa ect.
As a sidenote, many times I hear people use the term ‘strong African features’ to describe a black person with excessively large/disproportional facial features. That’s not ‘strong’ African features, that’s just an individual with a huge nose. I’m West African with ‘typical’ West African features and my facial features are proportional.
@ Y
I agree with you. What is this talk of “strong” and “heavy” really about?
I was looking carefullyat Ms Simone, and her facial features — to my eyes — are soft, rather than pointy. Her mouth is wide and her lips, full.
To me, “pointy-ness” is ‘strong’ and ‘harsh’.
And, in my mind, a narrow mouth with thin lips, is somehow more “masculine”.
I don’t know… maybe I am missing something,
I was looking at Ms Simone in the video below and her facial features are not heavier or stronger than say the singer Adele: http://www.adele.tv/photos/?s=photos&page=1&photo=8012%2F7249037260_ea97fcac2d.jpg
Or a singer from the past, like George Clooney’s, aunt, Rosemary Clooney:
http://www.fanpix.net/picture-gallery/rosemary-clooney-picture-15005096.htm
From laromana:
I don’t agree with the casting of Zoe Saldana as Nina Simone because there are other actresses who are a better fit (more talented/closer resemblance to Nina Simone) for this role and should have been considered instead Zoe. I don’t agree with the way Hollywood chooses certain token actresses to play most mainstream/BW roles.
For those who keep commenting on Latinos/their identity, why is it that, in North America, Latinos of MIXED RACE Indigenous/Spanish/European descent (“mestizos”) are allowed to classify themselves as JUST Latinos/Hispanics (some are even allowed toINCORRECTLY self identify as “White”) but Latinos of MIXED RACEAfrican/Spanish/Indigenous/European descent are EXPECTED to classify themselves asAfro-Latinos or JUST “Black” (or risk being accused of “not acknowledging their Black roots”)?
This has always seemed like a racist double standard to me and highlights the fact that, in North America, “race” is an IRRATIONAL/INVENTED social construct that has NO BASIS in a person’s ACTUAL identity (DISTINCTIVEETHNICITY/LANGUAGE/CULTURE/CUSTOMS) but rather their “PERCEIVED IDENTITY” according to RACIST notions.
@ Wilson
Stereotypically African features are not offensive to me, I just find it silly when people assume that being African means fitting a certain stereotype. One can be equally African without fitting the stereotype.
@ Bulanik
I agree!
@laromana
I agree to some extent. The reason some people (incorrectly) assume Afro-Latinos who identify as Latino are not ‘acknowledging’ there black roots is because ‘Latino’ is synonymous with mestizo in the US. Latino is a cultural distinction more than anything but most Americans think Latino= not black, not excessively white ‘brown’ people who speak Spanish :/. Also there are SOME black Latinos that explicitly say they are NOT BLACK, as if one can’t be both. I’ve heard people say ‘well I’m not black, I’m Dominican/Colombian/whatever’ despite obviously being of W.African descent.
Are people opposed to the term “Heavy/Strong” as a descriptor of certain features since it implies “not attractive”?
Here are some questions:
Is Nina Simone attractive?
Does someone saying Nina has “Heavy/Strong” african features make her less or more attractive?
What happens if I changed how I describe her, to how bulanik did:
“I was looking carefullyat Ms Simone, and her facial features — to my eyes — are soft, rather than pointy. Her mouth is wide and her lips, full.”
Does that then make her more attractive or less???
I thought how someone looks like was in the EYES i.e. what you see with your eyes. Surely we are all seeing the same thing.
Would those Hollywood producers consider Nina to be physically attractive? Now would they consider Saldano to be physically attractive? Why to those answers.
Can anyone not see the racism???
@ resjan,
I agree that one can be equally African without fitting the stereotype.
Do you think Nina fits the “stereotypical” African look in terms of features?
@ Wilson
What would “heavy/strong” European features mean to you, and how many Europeans would be excluded from that description?
When you say “heavy/strong African features,” it means there are light/weak African features. If one has light/weak features, it must mean they are less African than those with “heavy/strong” features.
I get it, we all expect certain people to look a certain way to some extent, but my only point is that one can be wholly African without meeting a stereotype.
@ Wilso
Well, I don’t have a stereotype for Africans on a whole b/c I know how diverse Africans are. I do have silly stereotypes for certain ethnicities in Africa like the Khoi, Oromo, Tusti, Fulan or Igbo, etc.
@ Resjan,
With regard to heavy/strong stereotypical European features, I don’t think there is any specific look as Europe is made up of different “Tribes”. Northern Europeans look different to Southern Europeans. The former are taller, have well defined features, the latter are shorter and stockier in general. So maybe the same applies with Africans.
I see your point.
and i just want to add colorism DOES EXIST, i never said it didn’t and hollywood is ripe with colorism, i just disagree with peot skinned people calling Saldana light-skinned when she is not and she’s the same shade as blige. That’s all I was saying calling her “light-skinned,” wasn’t accurate and didn’t make sense in my opinion. but overall, does hollywood have a big problem with colorism YES!!!
“Laroma,
For those who keep commenting on Latinos/their identity, why is it that, in North America,
Latinos of MIXED RACE Indigenous/Spanish/European descent (“mestizos”) are allowed to classify themselves as JUST Latinos/Hispanics (some are even allowed to INCORRECTLY self identify as “White”)
but Latinos of MIXED RACE African/Spanish/Indigenous/European descent are EXPECTED to classify themselves as Afro-Latinos or JUST “Black” (or risk being accused of “not acknowledging their Black roots”)?
This has always seemed like a racist double standard to me and highlights the fact that, in North America, “race” is an IRRATIONAL/INVENTED social construct that has NO BASIS in a person’s ACTUAL identity ”
Linda says,
Thank you, Laroma.
As a West Indian/part Latina woman, I get so tired of hearing this crap about “Hispanic/Latino is not a race, it’s a culture. You’re either black or white” — this is BS.
I can only speak for the Caribbean and Central America (where my family lives), large % of Latinos are mixed-race mestizos and morenos (even the “so called” white ones).
In Europe, these same so called “white Latinos” who are mestizos (like George Zimmerman) with obvious native American features are not seen as “white” (or black); and obviously in the US, white Americans are not calling them “white” (as seen by how happy they were when they saw GZ’s photo and rejoiced in the fact), so
I don’t understand why black Americans insist on wanting to call Mestizos “white” when they are not? Or they accept mestizos as the only “Real” Latinos and morenos are “default black people”
Americans calling the Cubans “white” I understand because the ones who ran away from Castro were mostly Spanish European-descended with practically no admixture–these people were part of the ruling upper class.
But someone like the actress Michelle Rodriquez–she is tri-racial (like Zoe Saldana and many Caribbean Latinos) but yet, her phenotype is what black Americans are comfortable calling “Latina” even though she has African ancestry through her Dominican mother.
why does she get to be “white” Latina and Zoe is default black even though Zoe has “European ancestry” through her Puerto Rican mother?
That’s a rhetorical question because the answer if obvious: The one drop rule is alive and well and
Zoe has obvious “black” features and Michelle’s has No obvious stereotypical “black” features. (and yes, African features are indeed stereotyped in society; we all grew up with these stereotypes because these features are/were used by all colour-struck black/brown folks—good curly hair vs bad nappy hair, etc)
Indians from India have similar skin tone shades of brown just like African-descended people—many of them are the same colour as Mary J. Blige….why aren’t they called “black” in America?
I love how Egyptians are “white” in America when, based on the concept of races, they are racially mixed.
Don’t get me wrong, I completely understand why people are placed in these racial boxes and the mindset in America behind these classifications…but the “one drop rule” is not the “Truth” and white/black American society are not the racial “guardians” for all African-descended people.
“..Don’t get me wrong, I completely understand why people are placed in these racial boxes and the mindset in America behind these classifications…but the “one drop rule” is not the “Truth” and white/black American society are not the racial “guardians” for all African-descended people.”
Linda, very well said.
While this anecdote does not address the issue of brightness, it is the one that comes most often to my thoughts: When making ‘Interview with a Vampire,’ many people, including author Anne Rice, were *horrified* that Tom Cruise was to play the older, less morally-conflicted vampire. I was put off as well, suspicious even then of the certifiable Scientologist shill.
But we doubters were wrong. He was PERFECT for that role. (His soul may have an unhealthy pallor, but his acting is damn good.)
It may be that there are better choices among darker-skinned women. The ‘could not secure necessary funding’ with Mary J. thing is….mm. Chilling.
All the same, it may be that Zoe is an inspired choice. Was. An inspired choice.
” In the case of Nina Simone, the darkness of her skin, the fullness of her lips and hips, the natural hairstyle, all of this was integral to her life, her art and her presence. For those of us who love and respect Nina, casting Zoe feels like a betrayal of these elements.”
And what makes us think this is not the intention? Let’s be careful not to separate the white female making this film from her racist male counterpart. And this wouldn’t be new – white females have consistently revised the history of Black females, mainly by lying about their role in Black female oppression.
It’s not about “getting the movie made” to celebrate the life of Empress Nina. It’s about “getting the movie made” to screw the beauty and strength of BLACK women yet again. All the young Black girls of current and future generations will not be able to draw on the inspiration that was Nina Simone. To cast, yet again, someone who is far from the aesthetic of the average Black girl with Black parents is so intentional it’s far from funny. And this at a time when many Black women and teenage girls are finally embracing their natural hair….yeah, this is part of the continuing assault on natural Black beauty.
Why was she chosen? Is this supposed to be a joke? This is ridiculous…enough said.
Why was she chosen? Because Hollywood is an incestuous , corporate , insulated, back stabbing, small group of people who rationalise all their desicians by saying its about making money when they have many failures and money losing ventures
Nothing against Zoe, and in an ideal world, a good actress should be able to play anyone. But, Hollywood is so insidiously racist, it is a shame that a women more like Nina wouldnt be considerred
Zoe Saldana in some state of makeup on the set of the film:
http://blogs.indiewire.com/shadowandact/photos-of-zoe-saldana-on-set-of-nina-simone-project-surface-what-can-we-learn-from-them
“Abagond,
Zoe Saldana in some state of makeup on the set of the film”
Linda says,
Abagond, I saw those pictures earlier this week, disgusting!
I refuse to see that movie, the wig itself is a disgrace and if they need that much prosthetics to turn her into Nina, then it shouldn’t be done.
@ Linda
I saw those pictures….what has been put on her face? Is that supposed to be “Nina”?
What? What the hell is this?
But…all the other possible actresses who could have played the part of Nina were too “out there”, yes?
So:
dark-skinned black women = some kind of “parody” for these bloody film-makers?
There’s more to say, but, no. This is too much like rubbish.
What would Nina Simone say?
Another picture of Zoe as Nina (this one added to the post):
Funny and Sad … people want Afro Latinos to admit they’re “black” but the instant Latinos are seen “benefiting” suddenly Black Americans arms are up in the air.
Funny how no one talks about how Richard Pryor is half Black AND Puerto Rican. Funny how the African American community forgets that Sammy Davis Jr. is half Black AND half Puerto Rican.
Funny how many don’t mention they’re part “Latino” as if it’s an embarrassment or could it be that they realize that both Blacks and Whites will ostrasize them for not being “all of their own” … Congressman Charlie Rangle suddenly remembered he was Puerto Rican, when it became convenient.
So is the problem that Zoe Saldana’s parents spoke Spanish and not English. She is American Born, she is a Woman of Color … but because her African ancestors were taught Spanish and not English … has got to mean she’s not Black??? Really???
FYI … She would have failed the brown paper bag test.
So the truth is … it’s about language … it’s not about the Color of ones skin, it’s whether or not you spoke English that makes you Black in America???
Because there are a lot of “pure” African Americans, that look just like Zoe Saldana and no questions it. i.e. Jada Pinkett Smith.
^ +100