The arguments that White American racists make often contradict each other or would not work the other way round. Just off the top of my head:
- Racism is dead – Racism is natural and common to all societies.
- I do not see colour – my best friend is black.
- Black History Month is racist – teaching white history the rest of the year is not.
- Whites owned slaves? They were not cruel and immoral, it was the times! – Whites freed slaves? See how kind-hearted and moral they are!
- White scientists measure bones for over a hundred years to try to prove that blacks are closer to apes – Whites have Neanderthal genes but blacks do not? Crickets.
- That Africans got their civilization from whites and use white inventions shows that whites have more intelligence – that whites got their civilization from Africa and used African inventions proves nothing.
- High average scores on IQ tests prove whites have more intelligence – whites should be judged as individuals, making general statements about them is racist.
- High rates of street crime prove that blacks have criminal tendencies – whites should be judged as individuals, making general statements about them is racist.
- Whites commit most of the crime – blacks are the ones who bring crime into white communities.
- We know blacks are naturally violent because of street crimes – multiple continental genocides prove nothing about the violent nature of whites. That would be racist!
- Whites have a rational fear of blacks because of their high murder rate – whites murder whites at a rate six times higher than blacks yet are feared way less.
- Saying bad things about whites shows that you hate them, that you just want to make them look bad – saying bad things about blacks is merely stating the truth, something that the people on this blog need to wake up to.
- High rates of out-of-wedlock birth among blacks prove they suffer from social pathologies – High rates of out-of-wedlock birth among whites prove nothing, even when they pass the levels seen as pathological among blacks.
- Whites got to where they are through hard work – that blacks were slaves for hundreds of years magically does not affect where they are.
- Pointing out racism is playing the race card – pointing out reverse racism is righteous indignation.
- White American IQ tests written in English prove that Africans have low intelligence – Tanzanian IQ tests written in Swahili would prove nothing about the intelligence of White Americans.
- Disrespecting someone because of their race is racist – calling blacks the n-word should be allowed.
- I got beat up by blacks at high school – police brutality against blacks is no big deal.
- People should not be judged by the colour of their skin but by the content of their character – police profiling is not racist.
- I’m not racist but ….
The fallacy behind most of these is that whites can be judged in a different way than blacks – yet the people who make these sort of arguments do not think they are being racist.
See also:
Reblogged this on Kushite Kingdom and commented:
Great post! I couldn’t agree more!
You’ve committed two informal fallacies and you’ve used that same tactic in a number of posts. Your first fallacy was shotgun argumentation in which you offer such a large number of arguments that one can’t possibly respond to all of them. And your second fallacy was shifting the burden of proof in which the argument simply makes claims while leaving it to others to prove it false.
In fact, you haven’t proven anything. You’ve simply posted a laundry list of assertions. It’s YOUR responsibility to prove your own claims. Its your opponents job to undermine your claim NOT to prove it false. Though I doubt any of your readers are smart enough to understand that except for SatanForce. The rest will simply accept it without question because it’s what they wish to believe.
For those that believe Neanderthal genes somehow make whites inferior/superior…
All peoples, excluding continental Sub-Saharan Africans hv Neanderthal genes, not just Europeans. I’m sure it doesn’t mean much considering the percentage of those genes is so small. Also, keep in mind the majority of New World blacks have European genes, which means they hv Neanderthal genes also.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/07/110718085329.htm
@duckduckgoofs
Your first fallacy was shotgun argumentation in which you offer such a large number of arguments that one can’t possibly respond to all of them.
Those are twenty common arguments that WHITE Americans make. Abagond is not making them. If you look closely you will see that Abagond has simply presented these arguments and is ultimately making ONE sound argument.
Also, there isn’t much of a point in arguing each and every argument on this thread when they hv been argued endlessly on others.
Finally, I fail to see this laundry list of assertions you speak of. Do you mind further explaining what Abagond is asserting through this post?
@ The Cynic
Understood, but I think we both know that if it were the other way round we would never hear the end of it.
Apologies to The Cynic for the blanket criticism in my first comment. That was a very objective comment with which I agree. I would also point out that all modern humans have genes from archaic hominin species because there were no modern humans 200K years ago. Though I don’t see what difference it makes since everyone shares approximately 98% of their genome with chimpanzees.
@ Duck
Pointing out logical inconsistencies in someone else’s argument is not unfair or some kind of cheap shot. It is part of proving them wrong. The burden of proof lies on those who push these brainless arguments, not on me.
@ Duck
In my experience it is white and whitewashed commenters who suffer from cognitive deficits due to emotional thinking. See the post for examples.
Pretty much, abagond. You’re only responsible for what you say, not what they understand or in this case, what they DON’T understand.
@Abagond
I know… i’ve seen white ppl on the internet attempt to argue that Neanderthal genes made them more advanced.
The counter-arguments below do not necessarily reflect my own opinions.
Racism is dead – Racism is natural and common to all societies.
Different claimants and matter of degree. Sample counter argument: “Racist inclinations are a natural expression of the human tendency towards groupism, though there’s so little of it in modern western societies as to not materially impede success”.
I do not see colour – my best friend is black.
“Seeing color” is not intended as a literal statement of visual impairment but rather in common usage means, “I don’t treat people differently based upon their race”
Black History Month is racist – teaching white history the rest of the year is not.
Differences in definition. Textbooks do not list any months as being “White History Month”, and speeches are not made in its honor.
Whites owned slaves? They were not cruel and immoral, it was the times! – Whites freed slaves? See how kind-hearted and moral they are!
Counterargument: If slave ownership was claimed to be morally normal behavior for the period, then abolitionism could be considered as being a delta in favor of compassion and kindness.
High average scores on IQ tests prove whites have more intelligence – whites should be judged as individuals, making general statements about them is racist.
High rates of street crime prove that blacks have criminal tendencies – whites should be judged as individuals, making general statements about them is racist.
Differences in definition. Description of “group averages” does not imply that any one particular member of that group expresses that tendency.
Whites commit most of the crime – blacks bring crime into white communities.
Discussions about criminality generally reference crime rate, not absolute numbers. It’s a disingenuous argument to conflate the two.
Whites have a rational fear of blacks because of their high murder rate – whites murder whites at a rate six times higher than blacks yet are feared way less.
This argument presupposes that fear of crime strictly involves fear about murder, which seems rather selective and arbitrary. If you broaden the concern to violent crimes in general, a case can be made that the higher rate of violent crime commission by black people provides a rational basis for concern by both black and non-black people.
High rates of out-of-wedlock birth among blacks prove they suffer from social pathologies – High rates of out-of-wedlock birth among whites prove nothing, even when they pass the levels seen as pathological among blacks.
I haven’t personally heard this argument, but if “X” is bad, wouldn’t “3X” be worse than “1X”? (referring to the out-of-wedlock rate of black Americans being 3 times greater than the out-of-wedlock birthrate of white Americans)
Pointing out racism is playing the race card – pointing out reverse racism is righteous indignation.
In common parlance, the term “playing the race card” generally denotes using race as a trumping argument absent of any defensible justification regarding the involvement of race.
White American IQ tests written in English prove that Africans have low intelligence – Tanzanian IQ tests written in Swahili would prove nothing about the intelligence of White Americans.
I think this is a fair argument.
@ The Cynic
Finally, I fail to see this laundry list of assertions you speak of. Do you mind further explaining what Abagond is asserting through this post?
Abagond’s “ONE sound argument” entails 20 examples all of which he asserts are “illogic” and “racist”. Each example could be debated to determine whether that is true. Some may be while others might not. And yet one can’t possibly respond to all of them because there are too many. That’s why he does it. It’s shotgun argumentation.
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@ Abagond
Pointing out logical inconsistencies in someone else’s argument is not unfair or some kind of cheap shot. It is part of proving them wrong. The burden of proof lies on those who push these brainless arguments, not on me.
Yeah, it’s a cheap shot when you list 20 examples with a blanket claim. Half your examples aren’t even legit. They’re straw men.
White Supremacism and Cultural “Marxism” are equally inconsistent. Whether you choose one or the other depends on irrational factors.
Duck, I want to see you take just one of these examples and defend it as not racist. But you won’t, because all you ever do here is whine about how unfair abagond is being to whites without even trying to back it up (which is what you are now demanding he do for you).
Racism is dead – Racism is natural and common to all societies.
pretty much it is.
I do not see colour – my best friend is black.
becuase they are … this is not just a token gesture.
Black History Month is racist – teaching white history the rest of the year is not.
it is racist to think they need their own month every day is ust as mutch black history as it is whit history.
Whites owned slaves? They were not cruel and immoral, it was the times!
blacks owned slaves too. in africa it was other africans who captured the slaves not the white man.
Whites freed slaves? See how kind-hearted and moral they are!
black people in africa still own slaves today
Scientists measure bones for over a hundred years to try to prove that blacks are closer to apes – Whites have Neanderthal genes but blacks do not? Crickets.
That Africans got their civilization from whites and use white inventions shows that whites have more intelligence – that whites got their civilization from Africa and used African inventions proves nothing.
High average scores on IQ tests prove whites have more intelligence – whites should be judged as individuals, making general statements about them is racist.
High rates of street crime prove that blacks have criminal tendencies – whites should be judged as individuals, making general statements about them is racist.
Whites commit most of the crime – blacks are the ones who bring crime into white communities.
We know blacks are naturally violent because of street crimes – multiple continental genocides prove nothing about the violent nature of whites. That would be racist!
Whites have a rational fear of blacks because of their high murder rate – whites murder whites at a rate six times higher than blacks yet are feared way less.
Saying bad things about whites shows that you hate them, that you just want to make them look bad – saying bad things about blacks is merely stating the truth, something that the people on this blog need to wake up to.
High rates of out-of-wedlock birth among blacks prove they suffer from social pathologies – High rates of out-of-wedlock birth among whites prove nothing, even when they pass the levels seen as pathological among blacks.
Whites got to where they are through hard work – that blacks were slaves for hundreds of years magically does not affect where they are.
Pointing out racism is playing the race card – pointing out reverse racism is righteous indignation.
White American IQ tests written in English prove that Africans have low intelligence – Tanzanian IQ tests written in Swahili would prove nothing about the intelligence of White Americans.
Disrespecting someone because of their race is racist – calling blacks the n-word should be allowed.
I got beat up by blacks at high school – police brutality against blacks is no big deal.
People should not be judged by the colour of their skin but by the content of their character – police profiling is not racist.
I’m not racist but ….
The fallacy behind most of these is that whites can be judged in a different way than blacks – yet the people who make these sort of arguments do not think they are being racist.
I could go on debunking all of these racist statements. no race is anymore racist than any other. however black people drop the race card more times in situations that don’t call for it even remotely. man get’s on a bus and stares at the first person on the bus who happens to be black(the person had something completely different on his mind, and was pissed at someone before he got on the bus) the black man makes the racist comment “have you never seen a black person??” . this list of 20 items can be just as well reversed and applied to any race. as a black man I resent other blacks who constantly attack other races as pure racist, when if fact it is them that is full of racist hate to even begin to make list about other cultures, constantly attack another race for things that don’t even happen any more. it is time we focus on our own shortcomings instead of other peoples shortcomings. if we focus on our own shortcomings there is nothing to be attacked over.
tehnoun Duck, I want to see you take just one of these examples and defend it as not racist.
I think you mean debunk not defend. I’ll take door No. 1. Abagond is using equivocation. Racism is a slippery word. People use it different ways in different situations. In the first sentence, people are referring to an official policy of discrimination. While in the second sentence they’re referring to group psychology.
@ Circusboy9010,
First off: since when did you start identifying as Black?
Second off:
Your stream of consciousness style of writing is on one hand refreshing to read … and then on the other hand you actually read what you’re saying and it becomes one big diarrhea of White ramblings.
Can you decipher the main thought there for the rest of us?
@dudugoo
I’m amused how you can’t directly respond to the information presented, so you attempt to dismiss the entire post using logical fallacy claims (which you have poorly understood) to hide your own inadequacy.
I also notice that you often issue a charge of inferior intellect to others. I’d say that’s a blatant sign of your own intellectual insecurity. In each and every post, you show yourself to be a shining example of the things you dismiss.
And now you use a semantic argument claim to AGAIN deflect away from the fact that you can’t offer any valid counterarguments. But then that’s your main tactic on this blog, besides general trolling. When you can’t answer an argument, you deflect and dodge without directly confronting the issues at hand.
Man up.
@Duckduckgoofs
Abagond’s “ONE sound argument” entails 20 examples all of which he asserts are “illogic”…
Abagond did not assert that each example was illogical. He simply asserted that the cognitive dissonance that exists between these arguments are illogical.
and “racist”
Now at the end of the post he did claim all of these arguments to be racist. However, if you have visited this blog or other places on and off the internet, you will find that many obvious white racist do indeed make these arguments.
Btw.. do you mind telling me what this post’s “one sound argument” is?
@Abagond
You forgot #21…
“Blacks never want to go to work/school” – “Blacks are stealing all our education spots/jobs through Affirmative Action!”
Both of which are patently false btw, but it’s still another common example of contradictory white ignorance.
@Duckduckgoofs
and “racist”
Nvm… after re-reading the end of the post, I’m not gonna give you that last point. Read this:
“The fallacy behind most of these is that whites can be judged in a different way than blacks – yet the people who make these sort of arguments do not think they are being racist.”
Abagond never asserted each and every one of these arguments to be racist. He is simply saying that the cognitive dissonance is being driven by racism.
Abagond you are Great as In Greatness;You Did It again with briefty,continuity and validity or in more simple language : short continous and true.
And the people you attract are amazing!!
I cannot express the depth of my grattitude for your contribution to Justice And Intellectual Inquiry.
I’m still browsing and downloading your blog and will be doing so for quite some time.
May Fame and Glory be yours everlasting.
The Cynic “Btw.. do you mind telling me what this post’s “one sound argument” is?”
The phrase “ONE sound argument” was from your first comment. I was quoting you. That’s why it’s in quotes. Why are you asking ME what YOU meant? And SomeGuy wonders why I take shots at others’ intellect? *smfh*
Once again, these racism denialists never cease to amaze me.
Circusboy,
Now you’re saying you’re a black man huh? Now I know you’re either high, drunk or just plain crazy.
Duck,
You could save yourself a lot of time by simply saying that you don’t believe anything Abagond writes about whites that you deem are “racist”, and that you don’t care much for black people for reasons likely rooted in ignorance, immaturity and low-level thinking.
Why either of you with all the free time in the world choose to come here in the first place is one of the great mysteries of our time.
Abagond,
I guess this post illustrates the link recently discovered between low I.Q.s and conservative thinking to prejudice.
@brothawolf: Perhaps its dark in his room when looks at mirror?
sam
When its dark in your room you touch yourself and think about when your uncle used to babysit you. jaja
duckduckgoofs
sam
When its dark in your room you touch yourself and think about when your uncle used to babysit you. jaja
!
?
^^^^^
I have often wondered what really goes on in the minds of some posters on this blog but, with comments like that, I can see why the world is in the mess that it is…depraved, disgusting. WTF
@ Demerera,
Cosigned. Anyone else noticed he used the hispanic way of laughing: ‘jaja’. I wonder if he is one of MiguelMiquel’s friends (aka circusboy9010)
And what’s “jaja”?
Swedish? Danish? German? Norwegian?
If so, then isn’t it “ja ja”, or something.
@duckduckgoofs
The last comment you made has completely destroyed your credibility. People like you are truly a disgrace to humanity. At first, I thought of asking Abagond to delete the comment, but on second thoughts, it might be better to leave it so that future readers know not to take anything duckduckgoofs says seriously.
duck,
That was a low blow. You didn’t have to go there.
“Saying bad things about whites shows that you hate them, that you just want to make them look bad – saying bad things about blacks is merely stating the truth, something that the people on this blog need to wake up to.”
This is something so-called race realists believe to the fullest.
@ joan
If Sam wants me to delete that comment I will, but otherwise I think you are right.
Oh c’mon people. You didn’t know? I thought it was obvious.
@duckduckgoofs
I would like to preface this with the statement that I do not approve of your methods. Despite this, that link did make me chuckle.
@Duckduckgoofs
Lmao.. you’re a funny dude. You insinuate that I lack intellect, however, you see 20 arguments instead of 1….
Interesting. Intellect w/o critical reading skills…
Don’t think I envy that.
p.s. I believe your last comment was your slightly stealthy, yet ultimately feeble, attempt at a straw man. Telling me what you believe is Abagond’s “one sound argument” would mean you are conceding to my point. So this time I’ll be more upfront and ask you straight up. Do you believe there is one sound argument within this post? If so, what do you think it is?
The Cynic
The phrase “ONE sound argument” is from your comment. I was quoting you. I don’t believe he has “ONE sound argument”. He has ONE claim allegedly supported by 20 shotgun arguments. Some of those arguments may or may not support his claim. They would have to be debated one at a time to know. But shotgun argumentation is considered an underhanded tactic because it places an unreasonable burden on one’s opponent. That’s not just my opinion. It’s widely recognized as an informal fallacy. If you’ll click here and scroll down the list of informal fallacies you’ll see “shotgun argumentation” listed.
For a more complete explanation of why its considered an informal fallacy click here and scroll down to the 3rd section covering “Shotgun Argumentation”.
Understand that I don’t object to debating his claim. And I don’t object to debating any one or even several of the arguments he’s using to support his claim. What I object to is the underhanded tactic in which he throws out 20 examples “just off the top of [his] head” while shifting the burden of proof to others to run around like chickens with their heads cut off trying to debunk them all.
SomeGuy
Thanks. I respect a sense of humor. I even laugh when someone makes a joke at my expense if its funny. Speaking of which, that earlier jab was actually a good one. haha
@ Duckduck
WOW!
Thank you sir.
Doug…Randy…Bliff…now you.
Incredible.
@duckduck:
Hilarious! You remembering your childhood there?
@abagond:
Let it stay there. Those kind of “comments” do not bother me none.
Abagond I can tell you didn’t spend alot of time on this if I wanted to I could pick it apart so I’ll leave it to your imagination what I could say to counter.
The problem is.. to counter your ridiculous argument I might seem as hateful, but this is what it would look like.
@Duckduckgoofs
I have been completely aware from the beginning that you were quoting me. However, that is besides the point. What is this “one claim” Abagond makes?
Oh c’mon people. You didn’t know? I thought it was obvious.
Wow. Isnt it disturbing what lengths people will go to to get attention…
The Cynic
I’m sure you would like to shift the focus away from his arguments because you want to shift the burden of proof to me. And I’m sure it irritates you that I won’t cooperate in that. But if abag makes a claim then its his responsibility to prove it true. Its not my responsibility to prove it false. I only need to cast doubt on his arguments. That’s how debate works.
Randy has already shot abag’s arguments full of holes. And I’ve shown that his tactics were underhanded to start with. So abag’s claim may or may not be true. But he has thoroughly failed to prove it. I don’t expect him or you or many others to agree. I’ve long since learned what to expect.
Question for Abagond, are you ok with this guy Duckduckgoofs calling you “abag” and “abbie”?
Abag and Abbie are fine names for me in terms of the comment policy, but Duck and I are not at that level of friendliness where he can use a diminutive form of my name (Abbie) so it makes him seem kind of douchey. But he seemed that way already, so it is in character for him.
Haha gotcha! It’s funny because “kind of douchey” is the exact phrase I was thinking!
Douchey? Yeah. I’ll bet you know all about feminine hygiene products. Because you strike me as a real mangina. The kind of guy who lets his wife slap him around. I’m glad you were finally able to stand up to her — by running away.
@ “abbie” and duck
Does anyone else see another (self)-destructure happening?
satanforce
That would be a wonderful suggestion… if I had violated the comment policy or received a warning.
Indeed. And I must also grudgefully admit that there is indeed a great amount of manginism in the comments section.
satanforce
Not to change the subject but I read your blog. Good stuff.
duckduckgoofs,
I can’t help but think that your arguments would be more persuasive if you showed a greater sense of decorum.
@Duckduckgoofs
At first, you tried to run away with a straw man. Second, you insult me. Third, you attempted semantics.
Lol all you can do is run bc your arguments hv no logic or fact to stand upon.
I’ve entertained you long enough. I’m rather bored of sparring w/ simple trolls.
*Done*
I kinda miss Doug…
Was he banned?
Doug was banned.
He was one of the smarter debaters. Despite him being an obvious racist/HDBer
A Black person committed a crime against me or mine-All Blacks should die..
@ circusboy9010, problem is ur race never focuses on ur own shortcomings, ur always in our business doing the very thing u purport we do.. Puling the race card.
@ The Cynic
Doug was a terrible debater. He believed whatever he wanted to believe – he had zero intellectual rigour or integrity – and when he lost he would just repeat his talking points. It was like talking to an idiot savant five-year-old. After a point I pretty much stopped talking to him except as moderator. I was embarrassed for Stanford (where he said he went. Sadly, I doubt he was lying about that).
@ deepdkchocolate
Amen.
@abagond
At least we got to see Doug’s epic meltdown. Classic.
Thanks Agabond..
Randy
Has decorum gotten you anywhere?
The Cynic
You should be done. I was done after we both repeated the same arguments twice each.
duckduckgoofs
In life? Absolutely.
If you’re asking more specifically the role of decorum in debate, then the answer is also yes.
My goal in such activities is to uncover greater truths, and as such, I want people who hold different opinions from mine to come with their very best arguments.
Thus, these discussions can be considered as a collaborative enterprise where the rule of “if you want respect you must offer respect” applies, though I believe one should be respectful out of a general orientation towards decency and not simply for transactional reciprocity.
@Abagond
Meh… I think Doug was horrible at recognizing when he was wrong, but pretty okay at seeing other’s fallacies/mistakes. For instance, their was one time he pointed out the insufficient sample size of a study that I had cited in a debate.
@ Duck
Aww are you pulling out your claws in here. You know what they say about name calling…****Wink***
@ The Cynic
Never mind Duck…He can be a little testy sometimes (might be that time of the month).
@ circusboy9010
I Think all those fake PHDs have gotten to your head. I would go on to debunk your simple-minded claims but why bother. They say stupid is forever and well….you are living proof.
so now circusboy is black. LOL.
I have a feeling if Doug was in a debate in real life, he’d probably stumble and stammer all over his own words.
Sharina,
It’s funny that circusboy is now claming he’s black seeing as how in other posts he claims that most black people are criminals. Seriously, either something is not working in his head, or he is a just a troll that’s high, drunk or both.
@ Randy
No, sir. I was referring to your discussions here. I’ve been watching and the answer is, “no”. If you’re wondering (or thinking) I lack self control the answer is also, “no”. FYI: 4σ
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@ Sharina
Yeah. I’ve been a little grumpy lately because my hemorrhoids are acting up. Have you found anything that works for yours?
@ Duck
LOL. Can’t say I have those type of issue, but I will ask my mother-in-law about that for you.
“Multiple continental genocides prove whites are naturally violent..”
Except that every other race has done the same. Genocides in China alone killed more than all European genocides combined.
The thing is, you only ever hear about genocides and colonialism committed by whites, so that is the extent of your knowledge.
@ The Word
The point of this post is not whether the statements are true or false but that whites and blacks are judged in different ways. For examples, whites play up black crime but, LIKE YOU JUST DID, play down the far greater crimes of white people. That is both illogical and racist.
Correction:
We should be vigilant about those commenters who TARGET those who constitute society’s “easy targets” (which include black bloggers, and blog-authors, btw!) singling them out for ridicule and intimidation.
@ The Word
It is always the Chinese with you people. ***Rolling eyes***
To Abagond:
The arguments that White American racists make often contradict each other
Presumably you consider Charles Murray a racist:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/04/25/charles-murray/
High rates of out-of-wedlock birth among blacks prove they suffer from social pathologies – High rates of out-of-wedlock birth among whites prove nothing, even when they pass the levels seen as pathological among blacks.
in his current book, Coming Apart, Charles Murray does correlate the increase in out of wedlock births among lower class Whites with pathological behavior. I am pretty sure other HBD types have made similar comments.
To Abagond:
As a follow up to my previous post, the following is from an op-ed written by Murray for the Wall Street Journal:
“An underclass needs a critical mass, and white America has not had one.
But now the overall white illegitimacy rate is 22%. The figure in low-income, working-class communities may be twice that. How much illegitimacy can a community tolerate? Nobody knows, but the historical fact is that the trendlines on black crime, dropout from the labor force, and illegitimacy all shifted sharply upward as the overall black illegitimacy rate passed 25%.
The causal connection is murky — I blame the revolution in social policy during that period, while others blame the sexual revolution, broad shifts in cultural norms, or structural changes in the economy. But the white illegitimacy rate is approaching that same problematic 25% region at a time when social policy is more comprehensively wrongheaded than it was in the mid-1960s, and the cultural and sexual norms are still more degraded.
The white underclass will begin to show its face in isolated ways. Look for certain schools in white neighborhoods to get a reputation as being unteachable, with large numbers of disruptive students and indifferent parents. Talk to the police; listen for stories about white neighborhoods where the incidence of domestic disputes and casual violence has been shooting up. Look for white neighborhoods with high concentrations of drug activity and large numbers of men who have dropped out of the labor force. Some readers will recall reading the occasional news story about such places already.”
The Word:Except that every other race has done the same. Genocides in China alone killed more than all European genocides combined.
The thing is, you only ever hear about genocides and colonialism committed by whites, so that is the extent of your knowledge.
@ The Word, please share with us any info regarding genocides commited in China by Chinese and furnish stats, dates, how many people killed , etc.And I will furnish proof dates and figures regarding genocides commited in europe by eupropeans alone that will blow ur feeble argumant out of the water. And stop talking down to people because if u were the intellectual u think u r, u would’ve furnished stats from the outset. Stomping with the big dogs now, not everyone is accepting ur “I’m white so I am right” horsecrap.
@ Bulanik
Don’t make comments you don’t want quoted or commented upon.
See how easy that is?
@joshua
“Don’t make comments you don’t want quoted or commented on”
That is not what I said.
And is not what I meant, either.
I made myself very clear, when I said so, didn’t I, joshua?
(Abagond has since deleted that conversation I see.)
I shall repeat myself, and outline why I wrote what I did:
Clear implication of this article is that one racial group is better than other racial group, they just don’t have the courage of their convictions so instead they take the worst example of group X to justify their own racism.
If you can only build yourself up by putting others down what does that say about you?
@deepdkchocolate:
I think chinese are not the best to compare to europeans if you wish to show the brutality of europeans. Maos reign took some 25-35 million lives, boxer rebellion from 1 to 12 million etc. And there are more in Chinese history. There are other differences which were talked about in previous thread. I think abagond or some one can link it here.
@deepdkchocolate:
Actual combat losses in Boxer rebellion are estimated at tens of thousands up to +120 000, but some estimates give million a total cumulative number, 12 including famines etc.
@ Bulanik
At this point I have no idea what you want except to be vigilant.
@ Sam perfect! Ur comment is “The illogic of white logic” in a nutshell , how predictable that u would throw The Boxer Rebellion something u learned in 11th grade world history at my feet..lol. It’s very amusing. Josef Stalin is responsible for the deaths of 2 million people, Adolf Hitler 3-5 million? How about Vlad Tepes also known as Vlad The Impaler.. How many Saxons did he annihilate? How many of of his own did he impale? Gille de Rais , companion in arms of Joan of Arc how many children’s dead bodies were found in his castle? Surely the names mentioned aboves murders far exceeded 150,000 plus.. LOL.. I could go on, but why should I?
@joshua
And you were suggesting what, exactly?
“@ The Word, please share with us any info regarding genocides commited in China by Chinese and furnish stats, dates, how many people killed , etc.And I will furnish proof dates and figures regarding genocides commited in europe by eupropeans alone that will blow ur feeble argumant out of the water.”
Europeans were honest and stupid enough to document their genocides, and then stupid enough to teach everybody their languages, so that everybody could dig up their dirt. I think if more people studied Arabic and Chinese a more balanced view of history would result. I myself made efforts to study both Arabic and Chinese.
@deepdkchocolate:
I am glad that you learned about Boxer rebellion in 11th grade but you propably should have paid more attention to history from then on.
“How about Vlad Tepes also known as Vlad The Impaler.. How many Saxons did he annihilate”.
ööh, Vlad did not impale a single anglo saxon that I know of. He mainly imapaled his own folks and some turks and some germans who lived in his domain. Anglo saxons were living on the other side or Europea continent at that time and actually had always lived. I recommend some history and georgraphy just for starters.
But if you wish to go for this, then start from Maos reign. 20-35 million dead. Not a piece of cake. Pol Pot and Khmer rouge about 1,5 million. etcetcetc.
And also, according the former leader of USSR, Mikhail Borgatshov, Joe Stalin was responsible for some +10 million deaths. Not just 2 million, like you say.
And if you have been following this blog you may know that I am not one to deny any european atrocities, on the contrary. I was merely suggesting that if you really want to talk about the europeans and what they have done to others, Africa and Americas are better places to start, simply because there you have everything in a plain view. In China things are much more hazy.
“Ur comment is “The illogic of white logic” in a nutshell”.
I would not say that but if so, well, then your response shows pretty much the failings of the american education system since your figures and geography are wrong, unfortunately.
@ BadWolf
Someone once told me stupid is forever. That same person also told me to think before you speak, which is actually something you should have done before commenting. It has been said time and time again what this blog was about it is actually amazing how you missed that part of it.
For starters it is not about one racial group being somehow better than the other. How you managed to come up with that is beyond me.
Secondly you quoted “If you can only build yourself up by putting others down what does that say about you?”–We have discussed this on another blog, so go comment on that one so we can stay on topic in here, but just for amusement purposes…How is commenting on facts putting someone down? If I tell someone they will never amount to something because they have said skin color then yes that is putting them down. By pointing out that something does not make a lick of sense is not putting someone down.
I tell you what…when you actually figure out what the post is talking about I will continue to converse with you. Until then…
Zàijiàn
@ Sam
She may have taken you for that illegitimate sam that showed up at one time.
To this day, the Chinese government has not disclosed how many people were executed by Mao’s red guards during the Cultural Revolution and how many people were killed in Tibet during the Chinese invasion of 1950. Conservative figures put Mao’s death toll between 49,000,000 and 78,000,000. Though its a poor comparison to other countries because China was much more populous. As with crime you have to look at rates and not just absolute numbers. Unlike crime. however, one also has to look at how advanced a country’s organizational capability is. It’s one thing for people to go around hacking at random with machetes. But it takes organization to rack up the really high numbers. Fewer people killed may simply mean a smaller population with less organization. Whereas crime rate shows what individuals themselves are willing to do of their own volition and not because they were following the orders of some dictator trying to stay in power.
@ Sam, Vlad the Impaler spent part of his youth in a Saxon outpost in Transylvania as Saxons were brought in as mercants into the southern parts of Transylvania in the 12th and 13th centuries.. Read up on The “Forest of The Impaled” and how Vlad Tepes overran the up to then unimpregnable fortress of the Saxons who enjoyed very specific commercial privileges and provoked the ire of Vlad when they began supporting others claim to the throne of Wallachia..Vlad destroyed their stronghold and impaled every man, woman and child in the forests outside the stronghold it came to be known as “The Forest of The Impaled.” U people don’t know very much, do U? Vlad spent most of his youth as a prisoner of war of The Turks.And did spend a brief period of time among The Saxons..
@sharina: Oh, ok then.
@deepdkchocolate:
No need to get hostile here. I get it now., You mean the german merchants and their families who came to Valakia from Sachsen region. I thoughed that you were talking about anglo-saxons, who were and are same as the english of today.
As for Vlad, well, I’ve read a bit of him and also had some coversations with some university teachers about him and his role in the political situation of his times when I was in Hungary.
In previous post I was merely suggesting that China, as its history is full of mass killings and catastrophes done by chinese themselves is not that good example as the Americas, or for that matter the war in Irak, where the estimates of the civilian casualities range from 66 000 to 112 000, and some have suggested even higher numbers. Or the war in Vietnam where the estimates range from 486 000 (south Vietnam alone) to 2 000 000 for the whole country.
I just think the history of Africa and Americas provide much better examples of the culture and attitude of european invaders to which you referred to than China. That is all I am saying.
@sam
About impalement and the Saxons:
Didn’t Prince Vlad employ impalement from the legal provisions of the Saxon towns in Transylvania? Wasn’t he following Saxon law? The 15th century officially endorsed this type of punishment. In Transylvania, impalement was done according to various German laws, mentioned in the Altenberger Codex (for infanticide, rape, killing of relatives and adultery).
This Codex was brought from Vienna to Sibiu in Transylvania in the 1450s, and enumerated the punishments provided by laws in the South of Germany, the Law of Magdeburg – also used by the Saxons of Moldova, and the Law of Iglau – applied by the Saxons in Sibiu and in southeastern Transylvania.
http://www.z-g-v.de/english/aktuelles/?id=56
The Prince followed their law to the last letter.
I doubt if he was an aberration during medieval times – but a lot more has been written about his cruelty. Ivan the Terrible is probably less famous.
Also, the history behind Forest of the Impaled is usually written in the context of the war against the Ottomans.
My own recollection of this history: it was 1462 that Prince Vlad had sustained some victories, using guerilla warfare and overwhelmed the trained Ottoman Janissaries, the experienced commander Beys, as well as the Anatolian forces of Mehmed II.
In retaliation, the Sultan had launched a full-scale invasion of Wallachia in order to transform this land into an Ottoman province. His army was 3 times larger than Prince Vlad’s force, and without allies. This forced Prince Vlad to retreat towards Tirgoviste. (Figures on the size of the army differ according to which history you read, though.)
To increase his chances of winning the battle, he took some very drastic methods: burned his own villages and poisoned the wells along the way – in order that the Ottomans would find nothing to eat or drink.
He also wanted terrorize them. When the Sultan finally reached the capital city, he was faced with 1000s of stakes holding the remaining corpses of some 20,000 Turkish captives.
I read that it was THIS horror scene which was dubbed the “Forest of the Impaled.”
(After this, I believe that the story goes that Mehmed II left the next phase of the battle to Vlad’s younger brother Radu. Radu had spent a few formative years in Turkey as well, but he had become the favourite for the Wallachian throne. Radu headed that army and was joined by Prince Vlad’s detractors, pursuing his brother to Poenari castle on the Arges river.)
********************************
Regarding Joseph Stalin:
The repression-related deaths are around the 10 million mark, but wouldn’t you say that the 20 million+ mark is safer, if we include the famine of 1932/3?
@sam
You’re a white supremacist now? When did that happen?
Anyone who reads your posts knows that is simply not so.
I think this is definitely a case of “the wrong Sam”!
my gawd sometimes it is like watching a brawl between the chess team and the ap calculus class up in here, going at each other with gavels and slide rules!
whoops make that the debate team
@ Sam,No, I am referring to SAXON merchants from the cities of Sibiu and Brasov.
All of the other commentary, though informative, is pretty extraneous. The point is The Word was attempting to “dismiss” the crimes of genocide perpetrated by europeans against any and every peoples they encountered by stating that “we are all the same ” “we all commit genocide” and citing genocidal practices in China of all places to prove his assertions ad nauseum.Of course he failed miserably.
Abagond:
All of this info is common knowledge to most educated folk, which makes all of this ish even more frustrating to deal with. Great Post, Abagond!
Tyrone
Dear Sharina;
Allow me try and approach for from a different angle. Given Abagond’s post “The Three kinds of white racists,” where it appears to me that the corollary to Abagond’s detailing of white racists is that all white people are racists. To continue from this post, the logical inference is that all white people are illogical.
Implication then is that non-white people are logical or perhaps more logical then white people. I may just be an idiot but that pretty much seems the definition of one group being better than the other group.
Just for the record: I don’t accept the premise that any racial groups are is inherently different and that one race is materially better. What I do accept is that each race or any grouping of people has its fair share of angels and demons.
By and large, the story of humanity is story of humanities inhumanity to his fellow man. The excuses are not relevant because they are just excuses. I don’t understand why some people go out of their way (all races and groups) to excuse themselves. Just to be human is enough to shame the proudest emperor and enough to lift the head of the poorest beggar.
@ Bad Wolf
That is why your whole argument is completely faulty. You are first referencing a post the has nothing to do with this one in my opinion. As I stated once before if you want to address that issue then go to that post.
Secondly not all whites are racist which has been proven time and time again. Yes, there are a large amount of whites that are actually racist, but not all of them.
As far as this post the only thing it seems to point out is arguments that white “racist” have used at some point in which they concluded was logical and right. If you really take the time to think about it all of them are illogical. For example it is racist for blacks to have their own magazines. This is a common argument that I have heard from racist whites (among many). It is funny that this is such a wide argument used considering they fail to see that many main stream magazines do not have black women in them period or Asian women for that matter. Do you see how ignorant it can be for someone to say that to any person of color?
Not one place is it implying that one race is better than the other. It is only pointing out illogical arguments that whites have used against blacks. That is it period. You are entitled to believe that it is trying to say blacks are better than whites, but again I will have to ask you where are you getting that from.
Dear Sharina,
I’m afraid we’re going to have to agree to disagree.
I don’t have any particular problem with the main body of the article (other than these are tired old arguements that have been used by all sorts and are hardly exclusive of white people.) but don’t know how you walk back a title: “The illogic of white logic.” it is what is and maybe I’m making too much too stew from oyster.
Good night and take care
This person did accomplish one thing as all trolls tend to do, derail the topic into a different discussion.
I deleted a dozen or so comments here and maybe elsewhere by Deep, Bulanik and Demerera that were derailing the thread with what amounted to name calling by calling each others’s race into question.
In my experience people here are generally honest about who they are, probably too honest for their own good (asking me to delete all their comments six months later). In any case, to bring up a person’s qualities, like race or intelligence, in an argument amounts to an ad hominem. Arguments stand or fall on facts and reasons, not on who makes them.
On a blog like this you will always find whitewashed or white-identified people of colour. My point of view is that it does not matter – white racism is wrong no matter whose mouth it comes out of because it is wrong in and of itself.
There have been black sock puppets from time to time. Most of them stick out like a sore thumb: they write in fake Ebonics, present themselves as a stereotyped black with zero nuance or individuality and are clearly trolls.
Also: Never call another commenter “it”. If you are unsure then “he” or “they” are acceptable. Commenters have called me “she”. It is not the end of the world, whereas “it” would be insulting.
I referred to Bulanik as “it” to make the point that gender or race is irrelevant here on the internet.I noticed that whites throwing around insults was not that big of a problem here until I started fighting fire with fire..Well gee thanks, but if u r going to control peoples thoughts and how they post to such an extent , then this “blog” isn’t really where I need to be. But, thanks anyway.Ur blog isn’t “pro-black” or any different from any other blog upholding the tenets of white supremacy.I will exit now and allow the loons to continue running the asylum. Peace..
Please delete my account , I did not see where I could do this, thanks.
@ Deep
I cannot delete your account. All I can delete are the comments themselves.
@ Bad Wolf
I agree. We will have to agree to disagree.
I think perhaps you are trying to make a collective judgement on what this post means based on other posts. If I was to simply go through 1 to 20 and make a judgment out of all of those I have only heard a black person say two. Of those two they were in reference to black people and none of them vice versa.I
African don’t record nothing, so you can’t figure out what they do, did or whatever. In fact they don’t even have a written language, unless you’re talking about Ancient Egypt (which is irrelevant in today’s time and have no real link to most of Africa and the slave trades)
Secondly, Whites not only document everything, they are the one who told you of history itself. When was the last time you’ve watched a documentary about anything which didn’t first comes from Europeans?
Thirdly, other races aren’t nicer than Europeans, just not as powerful/advance, that’s all.
The history of mankind itself is a history of abuse/domination. While one dominates a small tribes/nations, the other dominates globally.
@ Anomymous
I learned my history from outside sources and none of them were white. If I had learned anything from white sources then I would still believe that all blacks came here as slaves and that only whites invented things. I think it is low class whites like you that tend to convince themselves that whites did more than they did.
Also Anonymous it would be….African’s don’t record anything. So much for your education right. If you care to educate yourself further I do believe that many record records in African times have been destroyed over time. Not necessarily that they did not record anything at all, but hey you just proved you are not big on facts.
“Thirdly, other races aren’t nicer than Europeans, just not as powerful/advance, that’s all”–Again not big on facts.
correction recorded
Sad that Africans are the only one who’s “everything” was destroyed. Yeah right! They don’t even have a written language. Find me one, and don’t get started with Egypt. Asians, Middle Eastern etc.. all have a written language and can prove their history.
Sharina, stop claiming false history. The Africans aren’t even coming up this this bs. Afro-Centric nonsense, just AA making up stuff.
I’ve lived in Africa for 5 yrs, and there was nothing much to brag about.
@ anonymous
I never said anything about Egypt, so it is beyond me why you are so hard up to bring it up. Most tribal recordings were on stone or Hyde. You seem to think you are smart so guess what happens to that over the years?
@ anonymous
I don’t have to claim false anything, but you do so you can ride on the belief that whites did it all. Who do you think was the first man to perform open heart surgery? Why do you think Granville woods sued Edison? Educate yourself.
@ Anomymous
So, you lived in Africa for 5 years and the way you talk I highly doubt you took 5 seconds to find out what any of the African’s actually think. Let’s begin with how your logic fails. How is it that African art has been so widely found, along with tools but no written written record? Does it really make sense to you for people to be able to trace back to their family linage in Africa and not have no written record? The written record of Africa has greatly been scattered due to tribes moving and do to language changes as a result of being in areas that may have been conquered. The real question is where is there not African History or written records throughout Africa?
In studies I have actually found that Indian tribes in America is very similar to African tribes. More so than many believe, but alas you have little or no education so why does it matter. This information is a cake walk if you really cared to find it.
The West Africans of Timbuktu wrote their history in Arabic and there are hundreds of books and manuscripts there today.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamum_script
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrGthqwqZz0)
@ someguy
Thank you so much for supplying that.
Arabic don’t count. It just mean they were dominated by Arabs. I am speaking about an African language period. I see newspapers in every language,except an African/Black one.
I see newspapers in every language,except an African/Black one.
Get out more!
So, were Europeans dominated by Greeks because English and many European languages use a modified Greek Alphabet? Is the “European” number system null and void because it comes from Arab influences? Are European Christians not real Christians because Christianity comes from non-European Jews from the Middle East?
The very PAPER your European books are printed on come from a Chinese inventor.
Stop cherry picking your reality and accept the facts.
@ anomymous
Here is a link to articles about newspapers in African language http://www.birmingham.ac.uk/schools/historycultures/departments/cwas/research/african-newspapers.aspx.
By the way…you are amazing at making yourself look stupid. Just superb.
No one is cherry picking facts, the states of the Black nations/communities is the reason why Blacks don’t get respect. Instead they think it’s just about skin colour. If that was the case the South Asians wouldn’t get respect, as a lot of them as darker than most Blacks.
Since when are Greeks a different race from Europeans. They are all White people. The British scientist works with the Swedish scientist etc…. they don’t have the same ridiculous divisions as Blacks do.
@anonymous:
Thanks for illustrating the blog author’s point with your posts!
Who said anything about skin color? Stop re-defining the argument. The argument was about recorded history and scripts. You couldn’t fight me on my level, so you change the topic of the argument. You couldn’t satisfy the p*ssy, so you want to go stick it in the azz!
First off, you missed my point. My point is that one tiny group that most Europeans are not a part of gave an entire continent an alphabet. You know, like the rest of my argument that you can’t fight against, so you ignore it, because you are on the internet and can do that sort of f*ckery. I answered every point you made, now you want to nitpick to distract. Take those neophyte tactics out of here.
Second, are you really so dense as to think Whites don’t have their own divisions?? Even among Europeans in a single country, people see others as different. Countries such as England, Ireland, Italy, Yugoslavia and so forth all have ethnic tensions. Tell me what is Nordic, Alpine, and Mediteranean? They are classifications of European racial types; DIVISIONS! You don’t even know your own history and want to come tell me about mine.
The illogic of White logic.
You make a great specimen. I’m done.
@ Anomymous
I find it all too funny how you change the subject every time you are proven wrong. You can’t make up your mind whether you want to discuss blacks of present or blacks of past; whether you want to discus Africa or America. Either way it is obvious that you know very little about blacks or their history.
This is a brilliant post for its clear juxstaposition of the inconsistent arguments.
I was nodding my head after each sentence.
In light of the recent tragedy in Aurora Colorado, I couldn’t help but reflect on the Trayvon Martin shooting. I had to compare the way he was often demonized, even as an unarmed victim, to the presentation of James Holmes as a pitiable, even tragic, figure. I heard commentators and “talking heads” imply that Martin was a thug, thief, or drug dealer. Yet the word “terrorist” has seldom been applied to a man who gassed a room full of movie-goers before opening fire with an AR-15 assault weapon and shooting 71 people. A Florida fire captain, Brian Beckmann, blasted black parenting because Trayvon had the audacity to get shot to death while armed to the teeth with Skittles and Iced Tea. Will that man or people like him blame white parenting for producing men like James Holmes or Jared Loughner? No…crickets. Racism is as american as apple pie.
Nice post…funny how some of the whites’ comments prove your point so well. LOL, and it’s evident most of them don’t even understand their hypocrisy.
Also a few incorrect notions by circusboy: W. African slave trade began with muslims KIDNAPPING non-muslim CHILDREN in the 1400s…then the portuguese began KIDNAPPING CHILDREN in the 1490s…as the slave trade spread, yes, a few blacks participated, especially muslims or those who converted to christianity and colluded with europeans. What you and most whites leave out of history is the fact that many european christians were enslaved by muslims in N. Africa (1400s-present), and that many white slaves went to America as “indentured servants”. In 1775, George Washington put out a notice in the newspaper for the return of 2 “Negro” slaves and 8 “white servants,” proving that “white servants” were just as much property as the “Negro slaves”
Now back to the subject, I never ever bring up race with whites b/c I know that it’s a sensitive subject to most of them, as evident by the responses on this blog. You can say that blacks “drop the race card” a lot, which some do, but it’s b/c they see how important race is to whites. They see how whites, by their actions not words, are the most race-conscious people on earth. Most are afraid to be a minority, and if they are a minority, they cluster like magic to form majority communities wherever they go. Study the demographics anywhere on earth where whites have lived for generations and you will see that this is true. The majority black communities in America all have majority white neighborhoods and majority white schools within them. It’s not all about class either! Even when the non-whites are on the same or greater economic scale, they still flee. There is a small suburban county in Maryland that went from 10% to 40% black population in 20 years. The increase in population has come from high-income black people, but the poorer white population continues to flee. This is just one example.
Race is a big part of American society whether you like it or not, and there’s no need to deny it. If you really want race issues to dissipate, then your actions would show.
@ resjan
Yup.