Olmec colossal heads (1500 BC to 400 BC) were huge statues of heads made by the Olmecs, the earliest known civilization of Mexico. So far 17 have been discovered. Most were made between 1500 BC and 1000 BC, back in the time of Moses, Troy and King Tut. One of the most striking things about them is that they look like black people!
The heads are 1.5 to 3.5 metres in size and weigh between 5 to 50 tons. They were probably painted. Most are flat in the back. They are made of basalt from mountains that are 150 km away and were somehow transported without wheels or beasts of burden. Some were made from older monuments or thrones. They probably took several years to make. Only a ruler would have had the wherewithal to have one made.
Each one is meant to look like a particular person, someone who would have been known to the artist. They are probably statues of Olmec rulers.
What looks like a helmet is a headdress that in real life would have been made of cloth and animal hide. Some wear the same headdress, maybe because they were from the same dynasty.
They look like black people: Because Olmec civilization seemed to have come out of nowhere and had things like mummies and pyramids and because its rulers look black, Ivan van Sertima says they are proof that Olmec civilization came from Nubia.
Further, one study of ancient Mexican skulls showed that something like 15% of the people were at least part black. Some have noticed how Olmec writing is like certain African writing.
A cool idea but probably not true:
- Even to this day there are people in that part of Mexico who look just like those statues. No one suspects of them of being part African.
- There are smaller pieces of Olmec artwork where people look “Chinese” or even “white”.
- As more is found out about the Olmecs the clearer it becomes that they grew out of their own time and place, that they did not come from outside the region. Their knowledge of maize, a plant then unknown outside of North America and upon which their civilization was built, is a good example.
- Genetic studies show no sign of a high degree of African ancestry. The high rate at which people there died of European diseases after the Spanish arrived points to the same.
Van Sertima’s work has all the signs of being pseudoscience:
- making facts fit conclusions, not the other way round
- lack of mainstream support by experts in the field
- lack of peer review
- sensational claims
- cool ideas that appeal to people outside the field
That does not prove him wrong, of course, but it does not look promising.
The colossal heads do look black, but because everyone comes from Africa and because of genetic drift, “black” features can appear anywhere in the world, especially in places that have been cut off from most of the world for a long time – like Mexico.
See also:
Pretty interesting stuff!
Abagond,
Blacks are the original peoples on earth. Someday this will all be proven…
Not one of your better posts Abagond. In fact this is bordering on willful ignorance with abysmal or little research done. Much of what you state in the latter part of this post is basically, regurgitated, speculative, Euro-centric non-scientific denial!
This is on a par with similar debates over whether Ancient Egypt was truly an African (Black) civilization as we understand the term today.
Whats next? A post on how the Greeks brought civilization to the modern world?
Fascinating subject, Abagond
What a lot of people might miss in talking about the Olmec statues is, the statues may not have been made to look like the people building them, they might have been made about people who visited them coming from somewhere else
There are other Indian ruins that show carved rock impresions of men with big beards…someone on here said there are Indians that can grow beards, but the sculptures look unmistakingly like white men.
Ive been seeing some compelling documentaries about the arcitecture of early Indian ruins and the similarity to the pyramids in Egypt , Id like to post more on this as i get my info together because it is very incredible and certainly an anaomoly up against the common scientific veiws
Thank you Abagond for the post.
I have actually been to the province of Tabasco in the region of Mexico where the Olmeca culture was assumed to have descended out from 3500+ years ago. They had a zoo there with some of the preserved Olmeca big statues there. I felt pretty awed out to see this Nubian-esque figure explored in the previously thought to be the non-Black native indigenous geography. Shows the fact of Black lineage of many non-otherwise thought Black ancestors of world’s different peoples.
In a totally different era for a totally different reason, i highly recommend that you check out the history of Blacks in Chiapas, Mexico. Very interesting stuff.
The most amazing thing I ever heard about some of the ancient sites , including the Olmec is, if you start a line from Easter Island, go to some of the Mexican sites and cross the Olmec site, cross the Atlantic and go across the Dogon ancient sites, hit Egypt and the piramids, keep going through some sites that are in the Middle East and Asia, cross the Pacific and hit Easter Island again, if you take the circle that it makes on the globe, and use pi to it the angle that would be the North Pole if you had the equater, you hit the actual mangetic north pole, which isnt the same as the physical north pole
And, the distance of the intervals between these sites, on that circlular line around the glove passing these sites, breaks down into the ” golden number”, a design found throughout nature.
This shows unbeleivable knowledge. Also, the pyramids found in the Americas and Egypt have incredible similarities and state mathamatical properties like pi and the golden number , that really more advanced than regular science is giving them credit for.They also figured out things from astronomy like 26,000 year cycles of star rotations visible from the earth (this could all tie into the Olmecs by asking the question of what if there was an ancient civilisation destroyed in some natural disaster the same as many species became extinct in 55,000 bc and 12,000 bc as noted in the tundra , bear island , alaska and the la brea tar pits , that could travel the Atlantic and visit the people there and influence them with arcitecture and astronomy)
Im not saying I beleive it for sure, but the implications are enormous
Some of these ancient civilisations, like the Dogon and Egypt, were very plugged into Sirius, the star. They seemed to know things astronomicly that they shouldnt have
(sorry if my description of the circle around the globe is not described well, I just mean to imply that if you take the circle on the globe that crosses these sites, and , used pi, the point at the top would be the actual magnetic north pole which is differant from the actual north pole, which has changed over time , by the way)
Jt, great about your travels. For me, there is a big implication that the statues the Olmecs built , could very well be about people that visited them from somewhere else
Scientist know that there were people living in the Americas before the coming of the ones we call the “native americans”.
Different looking peoples, the Americas could of been the first melting pot.
http://discovermagazine.com/2005/jan/first-americans-from-australia
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2538323.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luzia_Woman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennewick_Man
@ B.R.
There is no question that some people in the past knew things that we today don’t. That is almost certain.
Like the pyramid of Giza, for example, if you look at the facts it is staggering,
They had to be laying down 1 stone every single minute for 20 years straight for it to be completed in the time period they think it was completed in … (total stones laid down is above 2 million, stones weighing on average over 2 tonnes.
And these stones were mined hundreds of kilometers away plus they had no wheels to use to transport them. Not to mention they all had to be carved into shape by human hands, with a chisel.
HAHA, the only sane conclusion a person can arrive at is that, obviously, the above can’t be true. Either they took waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay longer to complete or they had knowledge that we don’t have today.
Bottom line, don’t underestimate the Past. Obviously some weird freaky stuff was going on back then.
With regard to these olmec statues, I don’t know, it is possible some africans actually arrived there(How would anyone know if they did or didn’t?)… There are also legends of white long-bearded people who came to visit the americas long before Colombus…
Anything is possible.
I didn’t buy the Black Olmec theory either.
Thank you for this post- I love when you go back into ancient civilization. Your history book series has me reading for day sir!!!
Archeology is a very interesting science. I am strongly tempted to say Black people invented civilization, but that civilation made them weak and an easy prey for other people. The Ancient Egyptians forbade killing the defective child. That made them weak, and easy prey for the Romans, who killed the defective child.
a pretty in depth look at the olmec question , saying they were native american
The “pseudo-scientist” – Dr Ivan Van Sertima explaining his “pseudo-science methodology” !
You know them Afrocentrist types are gonna kill you for this, right?
@ Satanforce
LOL. But if I accept Van Sertima then I am doing the very sort of thing I accuse the HBDers and Doug of doing.
I could see the Olmecs as being part of the first wave of humans to leave Africa, like the Australian Aboriginals and the Negritos, meaning that they reached the tropics in Mexico so quickly that they did not lose all of their black appearance, unlike later, slower waves did. That would fit the evidence much better than a Sertimian trans-Atlantic migration.
Occam’s Razor doesn’t work with those guys. All you can do is sit back and get some lulz. I know I will!
@Kwamla, no disrespect to the dead Dr Ivan Van Sertima but I feel that he may have been wrong on this one. B. R. video is a great explanation for why. Other archaeological sources suggest that the Olmec’s culture was native. It is kinda how race is invalid besides from not being biological fact. No one “race” has exact common features that are exclusive.
Why do black people always want to take credit for being the first people, when it is obviously the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard of. The part of Africa that man originated is in the middle east= hebrews, jews, etc…
Do a research on geography, and those statues look asian/ mongoloid.
Does anyone remember an old anime series called “The Mysterious Cities of Gold” (Taiyo no ko Estaban) that used to air on Nickelodeon several years ago?
It was the first time I heard of the Olmecs when I was very little. Except, in the series, they were the enemies who appeared to look like monkeys with pointed ears.
Anyway, the Olmecs may have had features that are considered “Afrocentric” by today’s standards according to the statues i.e. big lips and broad noses. Still, it’s hard to say if they had dark skin back then. They may have. Still, even if they had, that doesn’t necessarily mean they are of African origin per se, at least not directly.
I have to learn more about this. This is exciting.
[...] Olmec colossal heads [...]
One learns something new every day.
Lots of South East Asian people have “black features.” I do not believe the Olmec are black African. Look at Cambodians, etc.
The features are probably general features that are desirable in hot climates. Australian Aboriginal people also have kinda-sorta black features, and are more closely related to Eurasians.
This just gets better and better….
The part of Africa man originated is in the middle east….
Yay. Sometimes this blog is the coolest place to visit when I have a spare moment. Comments like the above crack me up.
Keep ‘em comin’
Its funny, I brought in that video , but, I want to beleive something else. And the video does do a good job of explaining some things , yet, it was theory and using computor graphics which can be manipulated…
I beleive there is a posibility that the Olmecs came from the Pacific, which it seems they are discovering evidence that some people arrived from the Pacific
And I still maintain that the Olmec might have built statues based on some visitors that arrived , that they saw
But the youtube I brought in, at the very least , shows there are Indians with features that could be assoiciated with black Africa
Anyway, its fascinating and I just want to keep an open mind
Some nagging questions that hang in the air about whether their were people who reached the Americas other than Indians crossing from Siberia is, the amazing similarity to building pyramids , like in Egypt and those found in the Americas. The archetecture has a lot of similarities and huge stones seemed to have been moved around when they didnt have the equipment to really do that.
These pyramids from both continents expresssed mathamatical properties that were very advanced and also knowledge of astronomy that was incredible
Did they just come to all the same conclusions about buidling things seperatly ? From seperate continents ?
There is also mention that the Olmec culture pulled a Kmt (Eqypt) and seemed to come out of no where with the advanced technology. It is kinda the reason why I put may for the Dr. Sertima conclusion since that information can imply that the Olmec culture was not native to that region and developed elsewhere. I found sources that linked the Olmecs to West Africa and mentioned linguistic and cultural similarities. Then there was also a dna study source that mentioned native ancestry rather than African ancestry. Both sides offer great explanations and sources so it is really difficult to know the clear cut answer. I still lean towards native but there is some doubt on how fully “native” was the culture.
@B.R.
“Did they just come to all the same conclusions about buidling things seperatly ? From seperate continents ?”
Great question and I wish I knew the answer. I recall a similar conversation on a different site. The commenter mentioned that older and a larger number of pyramids were outside of Kmt. It is possible that similar knowledge could happen in different continents. If the cultures responsible knew of each other, I’m not sure but the same conclusions could have been reached with or without contact with one another.
Abagond:
It’s possible, but, native-americans are part of the asian/mongold family more so than african. African slaves were brought to Mexico in the early 1500s. Yes, black people were in Mexico. The reason why we don’t see any noticeable black people in Mexico is because of intermarriage. At the time, african ancestry was seen as a negative, thus, not worth saving. For those who think that we were only in africa, they’re mistaken. Black people were in southeast asia and pacific isles before whites in europe started the slave trade. East-Indians are the group that is most often in dispute. Their skin is darker than that of most african-americans, but, they have straight hair. In order for them to be classified as black, the hair has to be curly. All colored folk have dark skin, but, only black folk have kinky, curly hair. This issue is not about black people trying to claim everybody and everything, it’s about knowing the true origins of human beings on this planet. Non-blacks need not stress about this issue, because they do the same thing. Mainland asians try to claim polynesian culture as asian, knowing damn’ well that it’s african. White arabs in Egypt and other north african countries want to claim the region as theirs when it’s not. Their forefathers invaded the region from 647-709. North Africa belongs to black folk, not white arabs from Saudi Arabia…Tighten Up Black People!
Tyrone
MindScape
I sort of agree with Tyrone. If white people claim Egypt was white, they will have to accept that FGM was a white invention, too.
Aboriginees are not closely related to Africans.
The heads to me look like the stylized heads of Polynesian royalty, with similar things seen across the Pacific. The Olmecs being Polynesian or related makes a great deal of sense given that those peoples are well documented to have traveled great ocean distances.
Who were the first Americans : http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/09/0903_030903_bajaskull.html
some more http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/430944.stm
@brothawolf
Does anyone remember an old anime series called “The Mysterious Cities of Gold” (Taiyo no ko Estaban) that used to air on Nickelodeon several years ago?
You mean Esteban and The Mysterious and the Mysterious Cities of Gold?
I lurved the theme tune to that…
Yes, Jared, very relevant information, and, you brought in those other important lincs . This article touched on something I had heard before , of skeletons that had DNA from Europe from 9000 years ago.
Deedee , it absolutly is mind boggling and perplexing. After a lot of thought about what that youtube I brought in , and looking at the faces of the statues (Kwamla , I will look at your youtube later), it seems , who ever made the statues , seemed to go beyond exagerating a nose, the nose on the statue seems to try to make a statement that “this is an African nose”, exagerating aspects of what might be described as “black African” nasal features.
Their computor manipulation hasnt explained it away enritly yet, but, the photos of indians are compelling
If there was an advanced sea faring ancient civilisation that actualy did stop at differant continents, it could have been wiped out in something that happened 12,000 years ago , that caused the extinction of a huge amount of species of animals , with huge amounts of carcasas and bones found dead from that time (actual carcasas of mammoths frozen in time , with undigested food still in their stomachs , and a place called Bear Island , where there are huge reefs made up of only the bones and tusks of dead animals, a massive world wide extintion, with geological studies in Iceland confirming a huge rise in ash and warming in that period , also).
I beleive there is a lot of things we really dont know yet , but, as time goes on, knowledge we discover of ancient civilisations , reveals they had some very advanced concepts….some that have surely been lost
Taken from one of the above links that i posted. Funny isn’t it, the people that came through Siberia, who we now call native Americans, committed something close to genocide against these prehistoric peoples, something that Europeans would later do to them.
joshua writes: “Aboriginees are not closely related to Africans.
The heads to me look like the stylized heads of Polynesian royalty, with similar things seen across the Pacific. The Olmecs being Polynesian or related makes a great deal of sense given that those peoples are well documented to have traveled great ocean distances.”
ITA — and was just about to post pretty much the same comment.
To my eye the facial features actually look more typically Polynesian than they do West African or Amerindian.
And the Polynesians of antiquity were certainly seafaring peoples!
very interesting hmmm….
Demerera,
That’s the one! It was a good show that used to come on along with “Spartakus and the Sun Beneath the Sea” (“Les Mondes Engloutis”) back when Nickelodeon wasn’t full of pretentious crap.
Whats next? A post on how the Greeks brought civilization to the modern world?
Um, no Kwamla. You well know, that’s not next. You’ve been on this blog too long to making a silly statement like that:
http://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/03/28/how-white-was-ancient-greece/
@ SW6
Thats right I have been on this blog too… long. Which is why I can make, as I see it, informed comments like the one above. And why I can make this one in reference to that link you provided:
This is simply an extension of the same lens…
Those ‘Olmec’ statue heads, all resemble actor, Yappet Koto.
The last one looks like Bernie Casey..
“because everyone comes from Africa and because of genetic drift, “black” features can appear anywhere in the world”
This is so true. I have noticed plenty of Asians w/ wide noses and thick lips, although those features usually aren’t associated with that race.
I think I have to side with abagond on this one. I think what this shows is our very own ideas of race and the influence of racism in our thinking. When we look at these statues we first think “Negroes OMG!”. Then we think “Africans!”. Then we think “These guys came from Africa!”. Why? Because according the racist ideology the world is and has always been divided in a neat patch work of race reservations and that must be the explanation. Bollocks.
What we should do is accept the fact that the people who these statues depict looked just like that. And they lived at that time at that place. These statues, to me, show how ridicilous the very idea of races and racial purity actually is. This is litterally an evidence carved in stone that the people we think as “africans” or “afro-something”, lived all over the globe from the times immemorial.
I would not be surprised if they would find archelogical remains or evidence of so called “africans” from Canada or Lapland or Siberia. I have never believed in the idea of racial enclaves or homelands or areas, or reservations. After all, the whole human race came from Africa. If there are so called black aborginales in Australia, then why not somewhere else? Why not? And it seems that there has been.
Don’t be hoowinked by the racism. It is racism which says that certain looking people lived in certain areas and they did not mix untill very recently. Why not? Somebody walked from Africa to Australia tens of thousands of years ago. If you walk ten miles a day, in ten days you have walked 100. In 100 days you have walked 1000. In 1000 days you have walked 10 000 miles. That is a pretty long distance and not even super human effort, particulary if you are used to live a nomadic lifestyle. Ten miles a day is no distance at all but in few years it can be.
So why not people looking like this living in Americas thousands of years ago? No ther reason but a racist idea of human history, the reservations of human races. No other reason.
@sam, yes, I agree.
A short film I found refuting the Afrocentrism on this subject
http://www.amazon.com/gp/mpd/permalink/mGU6E5G9XACLE/ref=cm_ciu_vr_19799961
Sam , I tend to think that to just beleive what the Western world sais about the Olmec statues , is buying into the racist notions. That no one outside of the Europeans could have sailed or gone to the Americas except the natvie Indians , who walked over from Siberia, because they were too “primitive”.
Are DNA tests too Euro racist? Because they are starting to prove that some people who came over the ice from the Atlantic, were European. And , some stuff Jared brought in aludes to the fact that some people may have arrived from the Pacific .
The fact is, there are too many anomolies about a lot of things in the Americas , that should lead us to question any notions that the West has tried to tell us of what is completly true. The West , for so long, would never let us know the Dogons were as adances as the Egyptions as far as some aspects of astronomy.
Where I can beleive what you say about people not thinking in terms of “racism” in the ancient civilisations, I still think they noted differances in pheno type apearance.
The Romans noted the Nubian warriors of Carthage.
You yourself saw painting s in Egype depicting all colors of men and women, so, it means they did distinguish color
The Aztecs and other tribes nearby worshiped a god , “Quetsiquaetsol (sp?) who was tall white and with a beard
Old poster from here “J”,brought in evidence about old Hebrew text that mentioned it wasnt good to marry a darker skinned looking person , which was flimsily dissmissed by Thad…no one really could refute it
I do think ancient cultures were aware of phenotype differances , they just didnt invent scientific racism and use it to go and conquer civilisations and enslave them because they made up racism
on Sun 10 Jun 2012 at 21:20:55Oyan (@Oy_aN)
Those ‘Olmec’ statue heads, all resemble actor, Yappet Koto.
on Sun 10 Jun 2012 at 22:16:44grin and bear it
Those ‘Olmec’ statue heads, all resemble actor, Yappet Koto.
The last one looks like Bernie Casey..
I agree….and Jr. Seau R.I.P.
I think its time to introduce a bit more of an evolved perspective into this discussion as its becoming far to Euro or Western centered in its explanations and perceptions. (B. R you’re attempt is noted too)
And I say this because anyone who wants to do some basic human research into the origins of people will find that origin in Africa. Now this is not Afrikan-Centrist thinking this is present day scientific thinking. This part should at least be uncontested. But this is not the whole story…. And I for one do not accept the simplistic notiont of people migrating from hot to cold climates to account for the diversities of people and cultural ethic groups on this planet. Of course some of this type of migration played a part but so did the seemingly independent emergence of specific ethnic cultures of people around the planet too. E.g: Chinese/Japanese culture and civilization. .So “something else” is missing or going on here.?
Another obvious clue as to how Euro-centric in perspective this discussion has become is the projection of a single planetary conscious world view when interpreting ancient cultures and their relics – The Olmec stone heads. This is false and misleading because research will show you ALL ancient peoples held a Cosmological world conscious view. E.g: Mayan/Aztec culture and civilization So far none of the explanations here have acknowledged this.
But why is this important in deciding on the African or non-African characteristics of the Olmec stature heads?
Its important because it allows those more diligent in their research in this area to avoid the trap of already believing they have ALL the necessary information to form many of the silly conclusions offered so far – They don’t!. But then this is not a new phenomenon. Its called typical European/American or “Western arrogance” and you don’t need to be uniquely “white” to inherit or to catch this disease as Abagond’s post here has unfortunately shown.
Heres Dr Booker T Coleman (Who incidentally was a student of Dr Ivan van Sertima) speaking about that Cosmological conscious world view which I believe is so important to understanding ancient cultural history.
@Kwamla
Is there a part 2 to the Booker T Coleman video? It cuts out abruptly when he talks about a buried pharaoh in Mexico. Very fascinating stuff.
Also,do you think because ancient civilizations knew about the universe is the reason that some want to push the “aliens built civilization” (D:) theory. I know it’s horse crap but some really want to believe that the world’s ancestors were primitive savages and couldn’t possibly do it on their own.
Oh, this is going to be fun… (Whether the argument is right or wrong is irrelevant, just that its Eurocementric, whatever)
Hehehehehehe, you guys just don’t know how irrelevant you are, do you? Let me put it to you in simple terms
That’s what normal, mentally stable people (like Abagond) who know enough about West African civilizations think of you guys. Just another bunch of self-hating, contradictory racists. You guys just don’t know when to stop. I mean, the man says that you’re no different from race realists like duckduck, Doug, Uncle Milton and the rest of them!? How messed up is that?
(Reaches cosmologicalistic crap) You know, there are things that can help you, like SSRIs etc.
@Sam
All human beings may have originated in africa, but, all of us are not african today. Asians have wide noses and full lips, but they’re not black. Amerindians have dark skin, but they’re not black. East-Indians have wide noses, brown eyes, full lips, brown skin, but, hard to say if they’re black, mixed, etc. Colonization by europeans muddied the waters, as it relates to those in north africa, persia/arabia, south asia, and the pacific isles. Polynesian blacks are victims of colonialism…depending on the island, they may look more african or they may look more asian. They’re the lost tribes of black people that the history books omitted on purpose. In the minds of whites, black people were not smart enuf to build sea-faring boats strong enuf to cross the vast expanse of the pacific ocean, therefore, polynesians and micronesians have been lumped into the asian box. Hawaii is a study project that black-americans should look into. I was in grade school at the time, was up late watching PBS, and a documentary about the history of Hawaii was airing at the time. It talked about how the islands were taken over by the US military, the slaughter of native islanders, the rape of blackwomen, and so forth. The people that i saw in the photos were african people, not asian. Kinky hair, brown skin, women in grass skirts, coral jewelry, etc. I never saw that documentary again, but, it was branded into my memory forever. I had always assumed that we were only from Africa, i was mistaken.
Tyrone
Black Eagles
@satanforce
“cosmologicalistic” Is it wrong…if I giggle at this term? XD
@ deedee7789
This talk is part of lecture available on DVD but this short clip is the only I came across so far…you wold have to search further on youtube.
To answer your second question…Its true our ancestors the ancients acknowledged their connection to the greater universe and other ET civilizations far more openly than modern Western society does today. This allowed them to have greater knowledge/technologies far in advance of what we erroneously assume is superior today. This FACT is obscured by the perpetuation of this myth about primitive stone age peoples. However, there are far too many ancient structures and artifacts littered around the word, which science cannot convincingly account for. The Olmec heads being just one of these.
,
I can always rely on you to trip yourself up through your own statements. Of course “right or wrong” is well…. right or wrong irrespective, regardless of which lens – Euro-centric,, Afrikan-centric, Asian-centric etc..we are gazing through?
Because we all know (we can establish it scientifically can’t we) what is universally right or wrong? Thats right yes can’t we….???!!!
@deedee7789
Hotep Blacksister! You must not laugh at the possibility of extraterrestrial life coming to our aid! For it is through them that Blackmankind will improve, as well as when we get our reparations and repatriations. Do not joke with ETs, for it is they, and not social activism, changing of laws or working toward justice in the international monetary and financial system that will bring Blackpeople to where they should be in the world.
Hotep Blackbrother!!! You are behaving like a European!! Stop it!! You know that by right or wrong does not have to be an absolute measure, but merely the quality of the argument made by the blog author!! So far, you have not presented any argument that refutes any of the following:
OR
Tell me, are you a European, or are you involved in a eurocentric relationship with a whitegirl )-: ? I think that is what is affecting your thought patterns and causing you to be unable to read or reason properly. Go and be with a Blackwoman!!
This thread has descended into pseudo-history and science fiction….
I like science fiction.
@tyrone:
I have never had any trouble to believe that black, or any other color of men, have had the abilities to build ships to cross oceans. Nor I have never had any problems to aknowledge that “black” people have inhabited many parts of this globe since for ever. If I am not totally wrong they have found fossiles of people from Brazil or South America which are 60 000 yrs old and there fore much older than traditional wisdom claims. And more than that, those skulls are not similar with the so called indians of the area but point to Africa. And, like I said, the abos of Australia are black and the people of Fidzi too Papua New Guinea too etc etc etc. So the very idea that only certain people have lived in certain areas or continents is ridicilous.
Kwamla , my computor has just got a virus that is preventing me from watching youtubes and Im going on a 2 week road trip very soon before I can fix it , so, I am disapointed that I will have to wait before I can check out these youtubes. Of course I will try to get to a computor on the road , but, with out a lap top, Im at the mercy of the road and where I can get to one…
But, I really want to keep an open mind about this subject
I still say that the people who built the statues , might have built them based on people that they saw coming from somewhere else
I say there is a whole lot of things we dont really know about ancient civilisations…there is a lot to still be discovered and learn
Thank you sam, I really enjoyed that bit of fiction.
@joshua:
You say that aborginal people of Australia are not black? That the natives of Fidzi are not black? That the people of Papua New Guinea are not black? 
Kwamla, I caught the youtubes, very good and interesting.
Just to throw more confusion onto this subject, here is a youtube with some shots of a head that is unmistakingly blackhttp:(//www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=tI1ZuIjmp6I&NR=1)
one that shows a similatiry with the Tsotzil
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=v3pEMkGRvz4)
here is one trying to debunk the Van youtube with is criticisms in yellow. But notice at 6:20, there is a head that was made that doesnt look black at all, which shows the people who made the statues knew how to diferentiate features in statues that imply understanding in varieties in human apearance
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKO1TktjgyM&feature=related)
Im more confused than ever and more open minded than ever
Lets try this linc again, its important because one of the heads is really black African looking
//www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=tI1ZuIjmp6I&NR=1
sorry , try this:
Are ‘broad’ or ‘bold’ features monopolized by Africans?
And, who says the statues are supposed to be a naturalistic presentation anyway? Aren’t the statues’ faces flattened because they are supposed to be representations , rather than life-like in proportions?
I’ve seen such features on people throughout East Asia and elsewhere.
Take the Maori of New Zealand: there are a few Maori rugby players doing “The Haka” dance in this clip. Also note the faces of the men from Tonga.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0W7YdKYPl0&feature=related
One of the Olmec heads seems to have hair braids.
I’m no expert on this, but to me those braids look different to the braids of African antiquity (and the braiding styles that still exist to this day).
Also braiding is traditional in indigenous cultures.
What is more, it seems Egyptian braids are pre-dated by braids on the Chinchorro mummies of Chile. The oldest known Egyptian mummy was dated around 3500 B.C. while the Chinchorro mummy was dated at 6000 B.C.
What does that point to? Who was following who, exactly?
Mayan pyramids are younger than Egyptian ones. But pyramids have also been found in Japanese waters that are 5,000 years older than Egypt’s pyramids.
And what are we to make of the ruins in Bolivia, TIAHUANACO ( TIWANAKU), estimated at being at least 17,000 years old?
These ruins baffle scientists not only because the blocks used to build it weighed in at over 100 tonnes each; the cuts and fittings between them are so accurate that their very creation is a mystery. Also, the materials the blocks are made of, dolomite, can only be cut by diamond tipped cutting tools.
Scientists are baffled, but I think scientist under-estimate the inventive genius of ancient peoples over and over.
It makes sense to me that Africans could and would have made intercontinental contact in the distant past. But what doesn’t make sense is THE IMPLICATION that the indigenous people of the Americas were empty-headed, and that achievements of their civilizations were dependent on outsiders.
Im not sure if anyone is stuck that the faces have to be direct from the “African continent”. If those statues depict people from the South Pacific, its equaly astounding and exiting and counter to normal Western thinking. Its not like we have to discard anything Western, I think it about putting it all together and seeing past regular scientific Western standards. After all, they have led us atray so much in the past about “race”, any close to reasonably valid information outside of Western science should at least be considered.
Western science changes their thinking every 30 or 40 years , anyway, so its best not to be stuck on their theories too much, they may change before your eyes
I can see how some of the statues could resemble some Indians that are in the Americas , and some of the pictures brought in ( including by me), but , if the picture above I brought in is actualy an Olmec statue , the referance to a black face with curly hair is unmistakable…it could be from the South Pacific, but, of all the Indian photos we have been seeing here, nothing is like that picture above
Although I have made a direct comparison with the mummies of Egypt, I do not wish to imply that other cultures on the African continent did not mummify bodies 1000s of years before the Egyptians, such as the ancient Lybians of Uan Muhuggiag:
I dont think its about denying that the American Indians couldnt have an advanced civilisation , either…
Its just that visualy, no matter what, its mind bending…these Olmec heads…and some of the little sculptures in the youtube Kwamla brought in about the professor
Good points about the buildings and mummies, Bulanik. I think what the question is ,is , the explanations for what happened back then, that are put forth by Western science, arnt fullfilling enough
All the other theories about whether their was another civilisation that visited, or arrived to become the Olmecs, or if its visitors from space leaving knowedge etc, are just that, theories, some of them crazy, but, some are worthy of examining
The same question can be asked of Caucasians , yet people never hesitate to refer to the long skull mummies found in Egypt and Nubia as non black even though they may resemble current existing east african populations.
Do caucasians monopolize those features ?
And I’ve noticed that a couple of commenters have mentioned that only black people have dark brown skin and curly hair.
I’ve sometimes seen those features on South Asians and Polynesians.
Advice on taming Samoan hair!
http://www.ehow.com/how_10041194_tame-samoan-hair.html
And I’ve noticed that a couple of commenters have mentioned that only black people have dark brown skin and curly hair
Right,only black people seem to be people with a west african phenotype.
Regarding one feature on the faces of the Olmec heads, the nose.
There is the theory that says desert-dwelling people have developed, over time, high arched noses to moisten the dry air as they breathe, and ‘flatter’ noses are more common among people dwelling in humid, tropical regions, such as the Olmec areas (and also SOME parts of Asia, Africa, etc.).
A 2011 study finds significant correlation between nasal shape and climate. Dry areas are common in tropical zone micro-climates such as deserts. (‘Climate-related variation of the human nasal cavity’, M. Noback, et, from the American Journal of Physical Anthropology DOI: 10.1002/ajpa.21523)
QUOTE:
“The nasal cavity is essential for humidifying and warming the air before it reaches the sensitive lungs. Because humans inhabit environments that can be seen as extreme from the perspective of respiratory function, nasal cavity shape is expected to show climatic adaptation.. We report significant correlations between nasal cavity shape and climatic variables of both temperature and humidity. Variation in nasal cavity shape is correlated with a cline from cold-dry climates to hot-humid climates, with a separate temperature and vapor pressure effect.”
http://nilevalleypeoples.blogspot.ie/2011/03/blog-post_31.html
@Kim B.
No, ‘fraid not. Humans originated in Eastern Africa. In fact every species of human originated there, barring one – H. neanderthalensis, which probably DID originate in the Middle East.
Trying to attribute modern racial categories to people who lived a thousand years ago is problematic enough – a few hundred generations can cause a pretty significant phenotype shift, even without adding in intermarriage. Trying to attribute modern categories to people who were still “on the menu” back when the planet’s dominant feature were humongous ice caps is just nonsense.
The first humans were Africans. They were most likely dark-skinned. Whether we would call them “black” if we saw them today strikes me as pretty dubious; The people that we regard as “blacks” today are themselves nearly two hundred thousand years removed from the earliest Homo sapiens, just like everyone else is.
@sam
Melanesian, Austronesian, and others including southern Indians have darker complexions. They aren’t “black” in any sense of the word, any more than they are African (who also not black).
The heads are clearly stylized, similar seen throughout the South Pacific and often representing a god or demon, not a human. That also doesn’t mean that this is where they originated. I don’t know why B.R thinks that such a possibility would be astounding since we know for a fact that the Polynesians traveled very great distances.
“Looking black” is a very poor piece of evidence for concluding they are African.
@chulanowa
As far as humans originating in East Africa, not the Middle East, look at a map – they are close together. The oldest finds so far have been in East Africa, but that doesn’t mean older yet somewhere else nearby won’t be found.
Whether or not the first humans were very dark would depend a great deal on how much body hair they had and where they lived. Our closest relatives, the chimpanzees, have skin color that varies as well. It seems both vitamin production AND sunlight destruction of vitamins in the skin play a role in optimizing skin color for a region. I don’t think that anything but skeletons have been discovered for the early humans so we may never know.
@joshua:
Right, thats what I have been saying all along. These olmec heads do not need to be images of “africans” nor I do believe so. They depict people who lived in that place at that time. I believe that people who we today might call as blacks have lived all over the globe since the first homo sapiens walked out of Africa.
As for your claim that aborginals of Australia are not black, well, they call themselves as black and they have been called black by whites from the very start. The various people of Paupua New Guinea have been also called black from the very first day white men saw them. The same goes with various other people who live near by islands.
It seems to me that your definition is the traditional american one, that the “blacks” are “africans” and there fore any other black who does not originate from Africa is not really black. That is the very bases of the american/white racist world view based on claims made two hunderd years ago: certain looking people live in certain areas, neatly in their very own reservations. This, naturally, is baloney.
Perhaps it would be a good subject of a new thread: why americans see “blacks” only as “africans”? Why other black people such as abos are not “really blacks”? Why being “black” means “being african” in american thinking? That would be interesting.
@sam
“… why americans see “blacks” only as “africans”? Why other black people such as abos are not “really blacks”? Why being “black” means “being african” in american thinking?”
You’re right about the Australian Aboriginals calling themselves black, and not being the only ones to do so, as non-Africans.
I have sometimes heard the people of New Guinean, New Calendonia, etc. actually self-describing as “blacks”.
Some women from New Calendonia:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f9/Femmes_kanak2.jpg/800px-Femmes_kanak2.jpg
An old picture of 2 women from Fiji in ceremonial costume:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fijian_women_ceremonial.jpg
We can also add the Maori people of New Zealand, another non-African group, who sometimes, colloquially, call themselves “black”.
Joshua , its astounding because everything in Western science , before some of these new DNA discoveries tried to imply that only the people who crossed over from Siberia were the only ones who came to the Americas before Columbus
What is the hang up here about wondering if these heads also could be indicating some African connection ?
What kind of weak argument that this theory could be related to “some kind of racism” is that ? I dont see anyone stuck on that it only could represent heads built by people from Africa , How conveniant to try to eliminate other arguments by just calling it racism.
Why such eagerness to made sure to argue that it couldnt be from Africa at all ?
Where in any comments up here has someone said that black skin and curly hair can only come from Africa?
I have also implied that these heads could have been built based on the peolple who lived there saw someone who looked like that who passed through from somewhere else
Is that concept too hard to grasp here?
(….now that I look again, I do see some of Joshuas statements sort of imply that, I still dont see how it breaks down into some “American racism concept”, when some of the major points about the heads could be of African origin are coming from non Americans)
(meaning some of Joshuas comments seem to indicate that he doesnt beleive that people from the South Pacific could be black with curly hair…I certainly know that…)
@ sam
The term “abos” is considered derogatory and racist. I lived in Australia for two years and never heard them refer to themselves as “black”. They were sometimes called “blackfella”, which also considered inappropriate now. I have no doubt that many peoples have referred to their coloration as “black” in contrast to “white”.
In this American blog, with a majority of Americans posting, the term “black” is synonymous with “at least partial African descent.” My point was that even though many peoples including Africans share dark brown coloration, that doesn’t mean that they are directly and recently derived from Africans. If you use the term “black” HERE, be aware that in spite of your feelings about it, it can be used in two different senses: the color and African. It’s up to you to make clear the sense you are trying to convey.
@ BR
I don’t know where BR got his last, but they most certainly could be “black” with curly hair. The hair type common in Africa though is not really seen in any other peoples.
I would have absolutely no problem with an African connection if founded on more than a simplification of features. A evidence of a blue water west African sea-faring culture, DNA evidence, strong cultural similarity (pottery, mythology, etc.) and the like would be excellent. The Olmec were really not that long ago, certainly many thousands of years after the human crossing of the Bering Straight land bridge. Most archeologists believe that the Olmec were descended from those crossing from Asia as are the rest in the Americas. If “western science” tried to imply, it’s because that’s what the evidence supported.
I don’t recall using the term “racist” nor implying that speculation of African origin was racist, but only wishful thinking and likely fiction. When and if real evidence is found, I will adjust my opinion accordingly.
@joshua
The word “abos” is thought by a lot of people to be racist now.
I’d be interested in your opinion about the following:
This is only my own personal experience: I recall people that I’ve met who called themselves “abos” at times.
I really didn’t know what to think at the time when I heard this, and when I asked about this once, the man I was speaking with said he used it as a ‘shorthand’, and was fed up with all the tip-toeing around from “whitefellas” saying a blackfella was “Aborigine” or “Aboriginal”. “Abo” was ok in the right context.
He was ok with word as long as nobody was trying to be rude or racist with him.
I asked him whether “abo” was like the “n” word and he said No, it wasn’t, because he WAS an Aboriginal person, and what was the slur in that? but the “n” word didn’t describe a people, or even real human beings.
He also told me that the proper expression for a person like himself was “Indigenous Australian” – and he found this to be a pretentious mouthful and he couldn’t be bothered with that!
Yet there is evidence that the Pre Asiatics peoples were still around even with the arrival of the europeans.
Early spanish explorers of california reported seeing “blacks” in the coastal areas. check out the links i posted before.
Early humans began in southern Africa, study suggests : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12665643
joshua
“…The hair type common in Africa though is not really seen in any other peoples.”
As said earlier in this thread, there ARE other peoples with curly hair apart from Africans (note the comments about South Asians, for example, the link about Samoan hair earlier, another example), and also please do not forget that Africa is huge, and there are many different types of hair textures throughout the continent.
Sorry if I misquoted you , Joshua, and you too , Sam, if I missed your point
I think it’s more likely the flattened nose and lips are really just a consequence of carving on a big, flat surface that lends itself to less exomorphic traits.
I’ve been to Samoa, and while there are similarities in the hair, I wouldn’t go past that. It doesn’t matter anyway…
@ Bulanik
Like so much else, I think the use depends on the context and the setting. For example I might use that with a good aboriginal friend, but I wouldn’t say it on TV.
There is also a very wide difference between city and outback aboriginal peoples in culture and thinking. I like the style of “First Nations” that Canada uses. I would like that here.
Jiang , the only thing about that is that if you look at one of the youtubes brought in, they show a big head at 6:20, that looks like thin lips, extended nose , and the truth is, it looks more European than anything
If these photos , and the one I brought in above are valid, these people knew with out doubt how to distinguish features of humans from very differant gene backgrounds
The one thing Id like to say is, I dont see how we can discount anything or any posibility
How can we say that it is not African, or South Pacific or native indiginous? Science cant explain it, we can only put out theories, and , I want a totaly open mind
They just found new cave paintings 40,000 years old in Europe, and have to revise all the old theories about ancient man/woman…
We still have a long ways to go to know the truth
Any one of these things we are talking about could be posible
To SatanForce:
. I mean, the man says that you’re no different from race realists like duckduck, Doug, Uncle Milton and the rest of them!?
Doug clearly (multiple times) defined himself as a race realist, I do not know what Duckduckgoofs believes, but I would not define myself as a race realist, at least not by Doug’s definition.
I sometimes search for rebuttals to the race realist claims, note that I had posted this:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/open-thread-2/open-thread/#comment-117539
OK then.
@satanforce
OK then.
Ok then! That’s it?
That Imafidon twins story has been posted at least once before by previous commenters on this blog-site. Not to be pleasant and positive for a change , like Uncle Milton, but more as an example of fortitude and normalcy in the face of the usual shyte from his ilk.
To Bulanik:
That Imafidon twins story has been posted at least once before by previous commenters on this blog-site.
I posted it twice (and I don’t see where anyone else posted the story on this blog, see the Google search below..) on threads were there was discussion by active :race realist” proponents (Bliff and Doug…) and I thought Abagond or someone would run with it but they never did.
http://www.google.com/#q=Imafidon+site%3Aabagond.wordpress.com&hl=en&prmd=imvns&filter=0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=1edecb2460647b97&biw=1920&bih=975
the usual shyte from his ilk..
Not sure what posts you are referring to.
Ah yeah basically that’s all he gets for now, til I have evidence that contradcits his claims. Man deserves presumption of innocence.
Not so sure about tests proving anything. Hell even I got a 1450 for my SATs. Cambridge A-Levels and CAPE exams are only a measure of rote memorization and test taking skills.
You don’t expect me to go looking for them for you, do you?
@Satanforce
This remark:
You don’t expect me to go looking for them for you, do you?
is directed at Uncle Milton.
Satantic, do you really think he even deserves a presumption of innocence?
How come, what did he do to earn that?
So far, he’s pulled nothing out of his whites-are-innocent and I-can-always-find-a-link-to-show-you-blacks-otherwise bottom that deserves MY respect.
Btw, the reference to pulling stuff out of one’s posterior belongs to Uncle Milton, all the way. Posterior talk isn’t really my bag.
“Race realism” in Abagond’s glossary: http://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/02/17/race-realism/
^^hmm, that linked in an unexpected way…
anyway the glossary has a tight definition of this term “race realism”: http://abagond.wordpress.com/glossary/
@SW6
Abagond’s glossary says that race realism is “the belief that the races are a fact of nature as opposed to social constructs. Most race realists believe that the races have important inborn differences of intelligence and behaviour that the politically correct are too brainwashed to see or admit to….”
Uncle Milton linked in a story of 2 children doing well in maths tests in former comments, and this means what?
I don’t want to assume too much; but I am not sure what your point is, SW.
@Bulanik
Satanforce named a number of people as being “race realists”, Milton was so named.
Milton, said that Doug certainly was a race realist. Milton says that he himself is not a race realist at “least not by Doug’s definition.”
Satanforce lets this rest, because he has no evidence of Milton being a race realist.
Why did I put up the links?
It seemed to me a concrete definition would be useful to Milton and to anyone who wants to accuse someone of being a “race realist.” As opposed to using “Doug’s definition” or a vague sense that might be in someone’s head. Milton can tell us whether this definition in the glossary fits him or not. Satanforce can use that definition as the benchmark to observe if Milton is a “race realist” or not. It’s up to the two of them if they want to use the definition or not.
You’d have to ask Milton about his motivation to link the info about the two children.
SW6, thank you.
LOL. I prefer to ask questions over making too many assumptions.
I didn’t ask because I didn’t understand or can’t follow the sequence of events.
I see you use the word “accuse” regarding the designation “race realist”, though.
And, yes, it’d interesting to see what kind of racist category Uncle Milton doesn’t consider his fit!
^Yes, I know you’re intelligent. I wanted to be plain and clear about it that’s all. (I knew it would sound stilted though.)
Yeah—->”accuse”–I think it’s a very big deal to call someone a racist. It’s a serious thing to call someone. One has to have a compelling reason to label another as such.
Perhaps for you, the whole thing is a fait accompli? Because you’ve seen racist comments from Milton (I gather). I have not, though I have seen Aba refer to Milton as a racist in an old thread (don’t remember which one.) So, the two of us have different vantage points here.
So we reached to point where even evident negroid features of those colossal heads are quetioned!!!! Well, Western Caucasians I salute you!!! It seems to be definitely true that you are the progeny of Lucifer: “Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.” You have invented everything on this Universe. The earth, the stars, the galaxies. Keep lying. Keep deceiving. The time of reckoning is coming. When your worlds falls apart, there will be no place to hurt. And don’t think you will be able to camouflage your true nature.
PS: Western caucasians= USA, France, GB, Portugal, Spain, Netherlands, Italy, Germany, Switzerland, Belgium
to the point/… worlds fall appart/
I admit the faces look very Black.
Olmec African heads, evidence of early African contact with the Americas
This is why I maintain as I said at the beginning of this post:
“…Not one of your better posts Abagond. In fact this is bordering on willful ignorance with abysmal or little research done. Much of what you state in the latter part of this post is basically, regurgitated, speculative, Euro-centric non-scientific denial!…”
And to be quite honest most of the subsequent posts that have proceeded this statement have been just as bad. Assuming much of the evidence is known about the Olmec (or as they called themselves the Xi People (She People) heads when in fact this is far from the truth.
As much as I like Van Sertima, he did get a lot of things wrong. That’s primarily why I am weary of his claims about the Moors.
What are your problems with Van Sertima?
To SW6 and Bulanik:
I see you use the word “accuse” regarding the designation “race realist”, though. And, yes, it’d interesting to see what kind of racist category Uncle Milton doesn’t consider his fit!
This is off topic so I will keep it short. Doug believes in HBD aka a form of “race realism”.. basically he seems to assign a large amount of responsibility for positive and negative behavior associated with disparate groups of people due to genetics. Simply put I do not.
http://kwamlaonfb.wordpress.com/2011/02/04/youtube-black-people-does-the-earth-belong-to-blacks-have-they-been-invaded-david-wilcock/#comment-150
I think the saddest myth of all is that it’s only White who think of Blacks as inferiors. Go ask Asians what they really think of Blacks.
Even more so, ask Africans about their history. I’ve never heard or seen an Africans claiming “ancient Egypt” or any of that Afro-Centric made up history.
Because the historical images of African Blacks have been twisted so horribly by Europeans for the last 500 years , it’s no wonder so many people find it inconcivable of giving Ancient Africans any credit for being the Olmecs . Even when
the proof is looking them directly in the face , these skeptics above come up with the most insane and rediculous reasons to deny that these people were Black .
There’s not one group of indigenous American people that anyone can show
and prove that they evolved into the Olmecs . Not One . Even a quailified expert
like Dr. Ivan Van Sertima theories are dismissed without even a debate shows
the very clearly intellectual dishonesty of his critics . Dr. Sertima is not even the first historian to put forth these ideas . Many past decades before Dr. Sertima ,
there were many historical scholars writting about pre columbian history that
involved out side influences including Ancient Africans having made contact with
Mexico and throughout Central and South America . In time more and more revelations will be exposed by the sunlight of discovery and then every one will
know the truth .
Black might be the original humans beings on earth because they still look and act primitive. I guess that 1 to 4 % of Neanderthal DNA that Whites and Asian have make a world of difference from looking like a primative troglodyte to looking like a modern human being.