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black men, white women

In America black men married to white women account for 70% of all black-and-white marriages. Among married black men in 2010, one in 12 had a white wife.

Things that increase the chances that a black man will marry outside his race (mostly, but not always, to a white woman):

  • military service
  • university education
  • living in a part of the country with few blacks, like New England

The racial and sexual stereotypes in America make it seem like the best possible match: white women are seen as the most beautiful while black men are seen as the most manly.

That picture, though, is more the creation of fear than fact. White men have long feared that black men would take “their” women, given the chance. So much so that they imagine that black men have larger penises – and make sure to keep black men at the bottom of society.

According to OkCupid, an American online dating website with over a half million users, black men have the second worse reply rate to their messages – only Asian Indian men have worse luck.

But for black women with a university degree, the loss of black men with the same or better education to white women is considerable and not imagined.

America is racist enough where such matches are not going to be simply a matter of love and “preferences”. Other things too seem to draw black men to white women:

  • stereotypes about white women: black men have the same sort of stereotypes about out-group women that most men do: out-group women become a blank slate onto which men can project their fantasies. The anti-black racism of society strengthens these stereotypes. White women are often seen as:
    • Easier to get along with – more easy-going, more accepting, less demanding, less insecure, less pig-headed, less concerned about money, less using, less disagreeable. As some would put it, they are  “easier to control”. Here the Sapphire stereotype works against black women.
    • Easier to get into bed – always a virtue with out-group women, never a virtue with in-group ones.
    • More willing to please their man – Sounds like more male fantasy projection, though, oddly enough, black men do give white women a better chance of marrying up in terms of money.
  • internalized racism – or what some call self-hatred. The “white is right” brainwashing in America leads black men to overvalue white women and undervalue black women. Examples:
    • white ideas of beauty – most certainly do affect many black men, whitening their idea of female beauty.
    • status symbol – Successful black men do go for white women to a shocking degree. It is not just a media stereotype. Keep in mind, though, that they live in a much whiter world than most blacks.

As far as I can tell, “Easier to get along with” seems to be the main reason given, though internalized racism and whitened ideas of beauty are bound to be a big part of it too.

See also:

938 Responses

  1. I’m interested in seeing where the comments go on this topic.


  2. @Abagond,

    This is an interesting post and something that I’ve always wondered about. I know that on my end, I don’t see anything unique about white women that would make them the one on the pedestal, but then I have seen that the sexism leveled at white women was twisted into a way to both elevate them over women of color and also impose a sexist beauty standard.


  3. Reggie Bush is fine! I don’t know what he saw in Kim Kardashian in the first place. Btw, is Kim Kardashian considered “white”? Some people don’t think she is white per se.


  4. I think Heidi Klum and Seal would’ve made a better pictured couple. Kim and Reggie weren’t married.

    Many black people are bothered by this pairing (see Bossip), but I am not.

    Of course, what I have issues with are the negative assumptions made about these pairings. I just do not know enough to assume things. Yet, I cannot rule out any of the reasons you have given.

    I think this post has the potential to get nasty.


  5. You are right about the way white men perceive black male sexuality. For white men, it is threatening and admirable. On one hand, they see black men as ideally masculine with large penises, and they admire or aspire to that, but on the other hand, they are paranoid about black men stealing white women, and their inability to compete with black men sexually.

    It has led to the lynching of black men for hundreds of years, but also the empowering of black men (through sports).


  6. Part of what I found fascinating about this post is that, with just changing a few words, it could have just as easily been titled “White Men, Asian Women.”

    There is certainly a lot to be said regarding the fantasy projections on out-group women.


  7. @Mel:

    Yes, I agree Heidi Klum and Seal would’ve been better as a BM/WM pairing.


  8. Easier to get into bed – always a virtue with out-group women, never a virtue with in-group ones.

    It also happens in the Asian community, or at least where I come from, that WW are considered easy. I’m not saying this is true, but this is from what I’ve heard others say about WW.


  9. Oops, typo in a previous comment. I mean Heidi Klum and Seal would’ve been a better example of a BM/WW pairing.


  10. If being easy to get along with is the most prominent answer, which I do not believe, then what does that say about the man in question?


  11. Aba,
    Have you ever thought about the simple fact that black men do not want black children?

    Having a light complexion is seen as desirable in this country.
    You will have an easier time blending in, better job offers and don’t forget the jolt of egotism from the parents at having a beautiful child.

    I admit that in my own family, my butterscotch coloured skin was favoured by many than my mocha and chocolate coloured siblings.

    And yes, I agree that this post WILL get very nasty.
    Better stock up on the aspirin now.


  12. abagond,

    If you were to check out Youtube.com there have been and are several videos made by black men addressing the problems with black women. If you were to check some of them out, you can hear the self-hatred of blackness as some black men also have disdain for black people in the ghetto.

    One name that certainly comes to mind is a vlogger called Sgt. Willie Pete. He made literally hundreds of videos of bashing black women and how blacks from the ghetto are screwed up. He can never accept that history played a part in the conditions blacks are in now, not to mention why some black people including himself have internalized racism. Pete’s main theme seemed to be black women who are into thugs. He trashed Lauren London when she made this comment in King Magazine:

    I love guys who are street. I won’t even give soft guys a chance. Menace II Societyis my shit! Caine was like my first crush. Actually, O-Dog was my true dream guy. I was in love with him, from that opening scene where he pops the convenience-store worker. He had me from that gunshot [laughs]. He was ’hood, and I loved that.

    Pete was gaining success until he had one show where a white guy said something racist about black women, and he AGREED with him. That was the start of his downfall. As a result, he is banned from several video sites, including Youtube, but he’s still making videos on Generation X.

    I dunno. It’s just maddening to hear black men come down hard on black women because of the negative stereotypes associated with black women. I can only conclude that these dudes are scorned. Something happened in their lives to make them dislike black women and black people in general. It’s like they want to be distanced as far away from blackness as possible. In some cases they go to white women as a way of escaping the reality of being black in America.


  13. Truthbetold,

    “I agree that this post WILL get very nasty. Better stock up on the aspirin now.”

    I’m way ahead of ya.


  14. Have you ever thought about the simple fact that black men do not want black children?

    Having a light complexion is seen as desirable in this country.
    You will have an easier time blending in, better job offers and don’t forget the jolt of egotism from the parents at having a beautiful child.

    – Truthbetold

    I agree. It’s like we (Black folks in the Western world) forget that we are a conquered and colonized people and we bare the psychological scars from this. Now, we have made some great ground in healing ourselves (esp. in comparison to Blacks in Central and South America) but we still have work to do.

    The way I see the issue especially where educated, famous, and wealthy Black men are concerned, the appeal of white women or non-Black women or biracial women is due to economics. Many of these Black men want status symbols and now have the financial means to get that attractive white, non-Black, or biracial woman.


  15. Abagond,

    You missed the two mostly likely answers for why black men go for white woman:

    Imperial-mindedness, as the black man is very much at war with the white man.

    And…

    Radical sexual autonomy. The black man believes he can simply satisfy himself sexually in any manner he chooses. White women are in abundance and simply represent a different manner in which to sexually gratify oneself.


  16. Abagond: More willing to please their man – Sounds like more male fantasy projection, though, oddly enough, black men do give white women a better chance of marrying up in terms of money.”

    there’s nothing odd about it, it’s intentional. some black men just value white women more than Black women period.

    I can finally get this off my chest. some black men just make me sick with how brainwashed they are and the sad thing is, they don’t even realize they’re brainwashed…they just think that’s how it’s supposed to be.

    you didn’t mention the divorce rate for black men/white women abagond…


  17. Ahhhhhh….it begins!
    This is where I say, ” Good night, all.”

    I won’t stomach the ( mostly) white commentor’s bile on this topic.
    I


  18. a fun fact the media won’t tell you

    5-8 percent of black men marry white women

    in 2010 390,000 Black men marry white women

    a little over 4 million black men marry black women

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage_in_the_United_States


  19. @ CJ-canadian,

    If they were actually realistic about those numbers in the media, Black women wouldn’t have the inferiority complexes that they want them to have. What better way to divide a race than by using the men to hurt the women?


  20. Interracial Con Game by Umoja sheds a lot of light on this topic, as well as Excuses, Excuses by Mwalimu Baruti.

    The truth has many angles. Often black women remind black men of their failures- which is not always easy to face. But it is necessary to face- and fix.


  21. I once had a black flatmate who exclusively dated white women.

    His stated rationale? They were easier to get and easier to get along with.

    A caveat though: he wasn’t referring to all white women, just the ones who dated black guys.

    The strategy worked like this: we’d go to a bar (never a club) where there were no other black people, ensuring that he’d be the only “cool black guy”. A certain type of white woman would either come over to chat, or else indicate receptiveness.

    If this didn’t occur, or if there were any other black folks, he’d want to leave. From my observation, this technique for identifying and exploiting that niche market was rather successful.

    I asked why he never dated black women, and he said that they placed “expectations” on him which white women who were drawn to the “cool black guy” wouldn’t.


  22. Radical sexual autonomy… De facto homo-ism… The belief that one may have sexual relations with anyone AND anything he pleases. Even himself. Self-sexualizer. Self-annihilator.

    Now, how many here ACTUALLY REJECT radical sexual autonomy???


  23. i dont mind bm dating ww but just dont talk crap about bw while doing it.


  24. ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

    NOW, how many here ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT MUtha-FREAKING RADICAL SEXUAL AUTONOMY IS!!!???

    ****watches eco wave confederate flag solemnly******


  25. The irony of it all is that this is the MOST unstable pairing and has a divorce rate twice the rate of White men/White women (Which is nearing 50%).

    What is the MOST stable pairing with a divorce rate 44% LESS than White men/ White women??? Black Women and White Men.

    This is something black women should think of when considering marriage…the rate of divorce for blacks marrying each other is around 70%…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage_in_the_United_States#Black_and_White


  26. Abagond,

    What do you think of Ralph Richard Banks (Stand for Law Professor) book titled, “Is Marriage for White People”?


  27. “Have you ever thought about the simple fact that black men do not want black children?”

    Very, very, true. Even so-called Black Nationalists love them some non-white women. Sad.


  28. Abagond,

    You can see that in your formulation black men go after white woman for essentially unconscious reasons. They are simply products of external forces. Even the notion of the black man seeking status by claiming a white woman suggests a certain unconsciousness on the part of the black man.

    In my formulation, the black man has real agency. He is in a genuine war of liberation against the white man and claiming a white woman is his “act of war.” Or, he holds a genuine principled belief in his sexual autonomy. He BELIEVES he can fornicate with whomever and whenever he pleases.

    Of course, these CONSCIOUS beliefs can be held separately, but they are almost certainly held in conjuction with one and the other and there would be no cognitive dissonance in doing so.


  29. I’ll begin posting retorts and dismantling arguments once we get enough comments from Self-Serving White People and Anti-Black Male Black Women…


  30. ashante says,
    i dont mind bm dating ww but just dont talk crap about bw while doing it.
    laromana says,
    I think MOST BW agree with your comment, ashante.
    If MOST ANTI-BW BM who date/marry WW didn’t engage in ANTI-BW HATE as their JUSTIFICATION for doing so, they wouldn’t be contributing to the American BW HATE CULTURE by demeaning, devaluing, and disrespecting their SAME RACE women.
    It’s telling that ANTI-BW BM are the ONLY men on the planet who PUBLICLY trash the humanity, dignity, and femininity of BW by OVERHYPING/OVERVALUING WW/NON-BW and practicing/condoning ANTI-BW HATE.

    Jessica says,
    The irony of it all is that this is the MOST unstable pairing and has a divorce rate twice the rate of White men/White women (Which is nearing 50%).

    What is the MOST stable pairing with a divorce rate 44% LESS than White men/ White women??? Black Women and White Men.

    This is something black women should think of when considering marriage…the rate of divorce for blacks marrying each other is around 70%…

    laromana says,
    Jessica,
    MANY have conveniently forgotten that IRR marriage is legal in America thanks to a BW/WM couple, the Lovings, and you are correct in stating that the MOST STABLE IRR pairing (despite its apparent continuing stigma) is BW/WM.


  31. Inregards to black nationalists; whats that saying “The Blacker the Talk, The Whiter the Woman”?

    They even made a joke about that in “Don’t Drink Your Juice while being a menace to the hood” by the Wayans Brothers.

    As for the Reasons:

    Easier to get Along With:

    This is just my observations but where black women seem to shoot from the hip more and “tell it like it is” so to speak, white women are far more likely to be passive aggressive, manipulative and controlling.

    Essentially White Women only “seem” to be easier to get along with in the earlier stages of a relationship both dating and marriage, especially if your unprepared for their method of doing things.

    As for an example from this blog think of “White Woman’s Tears”.

    Easier to get in Bed:

    Well; I suspect women will want to see if the hype lives up to reality, so that wouldn’t surprise me.

    That and if most black men who ask white women out have more money than they usually have access to in dating partners, than white women might be more willing to have sex earlier to try and pull him in.

    More Eager to Please their Man:

    As in sexually or more along the lines of bare foot, in the kitchen and pregnant?

    Ultimately I suspect alot of this might be mindset; if you go into a situation thinking a woman’s easy to get along with, more likely to bed you and more likely to do what you want etc….

    Your probably going to be more confident and sure of yourself aren’t you?

    Making these into basically self-fulfilling prophecies.


  32. “You are right about the way white men perceive black male sexuality. For white men, it is threatening and admirable. On one hand, they see black men as ideally masculine with large penises, and they admire or aspire to that, but on the other hand, they are paranoid about black men stealing white women, and their inability to compete with black men sexually.It has led to the lynching of black men for hundreds of years, but also the empowering of black men (through sports).”

    I think this is a bunch of pep talk black men like to tell themselves. Most white men aren’t threatened or sexually intimated by black men. Most women of all races with the exception of black women have a much stronger personal preference for white men than black men. Hell, most women prefer white male sex partners on most of these freaky deeky websites, so all this bunk black men love to spew about being most masculine and sexually superior than white and other non-black men is merely a myth.


  33. i dont mind bm dating ww but just dont talk crap about bw while doing it.”

    ashane, I’ve never cared black men being more attracted to “redbones” or white, hispanic, or asian. In fact i’ve never really been interested in black men period, but it really irks me when black men bash black women to justify why they chose non-black women. Why can’t they just stop leave black women alone and be content with their non-black partners?


  34. @Janet

    Being more masculine and having a large penis aren’t all their is to sex; women prefer more masculine men when it comes purely to sex but when it is relationships they go for the more “effeminant” non-alpha male types.

    Or to put it another way; being dominant, forceful and only considering your own desires may be something a woman goes for occasionally but it gets old when thats all they get, sometimes women also want their own needs met and thats more likely to happen if the guy is less attractive than them or has a small penis.


  35. Leigh. Armenians are White people. White people come in different colors, from very pale to very dark-just like everyone else. We are not monolithic entities.

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/armeniadnaproject/default.aspx?section=results


  36. Geez, so much mis-information. Abagond so much of this is your opinion rather than fact. Please provide government stats next time.

    Also Jessica, that wikipedia link doesn’t say that black and women marriages are “the most unstable”. There was no information about that at the link you provided.

    It must have been a slow Sunday night for you.


  37. Here are some married BM/WW couples:

    Taye Diggs and Idina Menzel
    Montel Williams and Tara Fowler
    Ice-T and Coco
    Cuba Gooding Jr. and Sara Kapfer
    Ahmad Rashad and Sale Johnson
    Lamar Odom and Khloe Kardashian


  38. Basically Kim K and aremians are white like italians are white so take it as you will.


  39. Well; thats not quite accurate, italians are higher on the white scale but pretty much Kim K is white like mexicans are white….thats a closer to accurate statement.


  40. @ ashante:

    I agree. I never cared about black men dating white women UNTIL I started hearing those evil, degrading, insulting youtube videos and media attacks by black men (and some white women) against Black women. I personally think some white women and black men actually ENJOY getting attention (whether negative or positive) for their relationship and provoke other people into saying stuff.

    One thing that also annoys me is the black men who EXCLUSIVELY date white/non-black women. To me, if you’re willing to date everyone else, but your own race…that’s racist to me. you’re judging people based off of their skin color solely, how can that not be racist. you can’t talk the color blind stuff/ racial liberation when you won’t even give your own race the same opportunities as other races. And people will hide behind the facade that “that;s just what I’m attracted to,” so you’re attracted to every other race, but your own…just like that huh? so, you’re not attracted to your self then.

    My final petpeeve:

    when SOME white women only date Black men for sex and Black men who enjoy being used for sex.

    We all know there are mandingo parties and I’ve heard white women (myself) white classmates and friends tell me that black men had “bigger p*nises”
    I will never forget the time I was at my friend’s pool and we were talking about guys and one of my white female friend’s told me. “you shouldn’t wait for marriage to have sex because it will be extra painful for you.”

    “Well, it’s painful for everyone their first time.”

    “yes, but what are your odds of marrying a Black man?”

    “Huh? What do you mean?”

    “Black men are the biggest, asian’s are the smallest, white men are in the middle.”

    This is what my white friend who I’d known forever told me, I was so shocked. How is it that so many white women are aware of this stereotype, I didn’t even think of that until she brought it up.

    So, I know there are ww who just go after Bm for sex…whatever…but Black men SHOULDN’T let themselves be degraded that way. But INSTEAD some Black men want to act so flattered and happy and degrade themselves happily to be with a white woman

    AND FYI there are entire groups dedicated to white man cuckold fantasies where the black man sleeps with the white wife in front of him…just like Eldridge Cleaver wrote about in his book.

    see mandingo parties: http://www.marclamonthill.com/2507-2507


  41. and who could forget this beauty (not): http://www.nypress.com/article-12509-a-white-woman-explains-why-she-prefers-black-men.html

    SOME black men are just so pathetic to let themselves be used this way.


  42. I mean how would some black men feel if white men were saying stuff like that about Black women and Black women happily jumped up and took those degrading things as compliments then turned around and cursed Black men for “hating on them,” or “being jealous?”


  43. There seem to be quite a few videos on youtube of black men stating why they don’t like black women.

    (Note to my “fans” – I have expressed no opinion on this topic whatsoever.)


  44. That article was so disgusting I couldn’t even get past a few paragraphs.

    @peanut
    Those men aren’t pathetic for getting used. It’s likely on purpose. American male culture revolves around sex and the notches on their belt. Unlike women, men don’t care about being objectified. They’re happy to be objectified, especially if it gets them laid. Feel free to use the American man; the more marks on his bedpost, then more manly he is.


  45. @ Dave Lister

    there’s more than quite a few, you should have been around to hear srgtwilliepete. He was legendary for his hatred of Black women

    But here’s one example:


  46. I used to be a happy, free-spirit, no care Black woman and all the negativity from these type of self-hating Black men just SUCKED all the innocence out of me. It’s amazing how words can truly destroy your spirit…all those hateful youtube videos and then the negativity in the media, over-hyping white women and degrading Black women, it got to me. I know i’m not the only one.


  47. Abagond,

    If you are a genuine anti-abortion Catholic then you are:

    1. Something akin to a “black” Supremacist

    2. Diametrically opposed to the fundamental beliefs of the American black collective.

    But then again, I haven’t heard you actually reject radical sexual autonomy. I haven’t read you say that you would sexually reject a white female nor have I read you


  48. and by the way the funny thing about that youtube video that I posted, Vanessa Feltz was CLEARLY enjoying the rant by the black man stating how ugly black women are. She was obviously enjoying it and putting on a facade of being “shocked,” by his response.

    but if she really didn’t believe what he was saying or didn’t enjoy it, why even give him airt time? why put someone so hateful on the radio…and this is the type of fake sympathy that I think the media gives Black women a lot with the single specials, the news specials…”it’s the poor Black woman facade,” but realy they’re enjoying hearing the negativity, getting off on the fact that black women are being hurt and it’s funny to them, it makes these type of people feel good.

    Same thing with the movie the help, its a hoax that people are really truly feeling sorry for the Black women and wanting things to change. they don’t want things to change, i believe part of the reason so many wp liked the Help was because they like to fantasize about being so above black women. They like to think of white women being all done up and glamours and on a pedestal, while Black women are made to look like old, asexual, abused, obese mammies…it makes them feel good.


  49. @ Peanut,

    Well that was infuriating to watch.


  50. ^^^ Reject the idea that your future son or daughter should reject radical sexual autonomy.


  51. @ ace
    YEAH! AND THEN they wonder why some Black women are angry about stuff like that. I want everyone to know that the world has turned me into an angry Black women. I never used to care about stuff like this UNTIL people attacked my dignity and worth as a Black woman.

    I an innocent, care-free Black girl, but the world messed up my mind. I’m sure there are other Black women out there who had the same experience.


  52. I * was an innocent, care free Black girl


  53. and white women don’t have people making article about how “objectively unattractive they are”


  54. peanut….you aint seen nothing yet. Unfortunately many “sista soulja” types are oblivious to the fact that a significant number of black men truly despise black women and want nothing to do with them, there are a number of them on this website. Black women are far too brainwashed and indoctrinated when it comes to so called “black love” mantra. Talk about being stuck in the matrix. lol


  55. i got a message from some supposed white woman on one of my blogs talking about how “black women play poor me,” I couldn’t believe it. has this white woman been living under a rock does she NOT see the disparity in representation in the media. How nice that she can be so arrogant and has the privilege to overlook black women’s struggles because her beauty is reinforced and validated every day.

    how nice that she doesn’t have to worry about being refused simply job at a pharmacy just because she’s black, how nice she doesn’t have to worry about the fact that she’s more likely to be incarcerated and serve longer prison sentences than any other woman and most of the time for non-violent drug offense. Like harboring drugs for a boyfriend. How nice that she doesn’t have to worry about having her children taken away from her and placed in foster care when she hasn’t even done any thing to get them taken away (by the way abagond, I forgot I still have to do that post on black children being taken away)

    how nice that she doesn’t have to worry about going missing and the news not covering it…

    is she serious? how is it that SOME white women can try and sympathize and pretend to care about the plight of their black husbands/boyfriends, but then in the same breath couldn’t care less or even try to understand about the plight of Black women.

    I cant’ tell you how many messages I’ve gotten from some white woman who is dating a bm on my youtube account about how black women do this and that and this is why bm date them.

    then when you try to explain to them that they’re generalizing, these type of ww don’t get it…they just don’t get that they’re being racist when they say things like that, doesn’t matter if you’re dating a bm or not. but they don’t care why because they BENEFIT and know that as long as black women are on the bottom, they’re not…so it serves them to not care what black women go through.

    and the most upsetting thing is black men will tolerate this racism from white women against black WOMEN, but lordy they’ll jump up and down and scream the second someone says something against white women.

    it’s pathetic. and i’m not talking about all white women or all black men i’m talking SPECIFICALLY about the self hating black male and the racist white female pairing.


  56. approve my comment please abagond, why is it in moderation?


  57. @thordaddy,

    What? How does that relate?

    @ Peanut,

    I understand, it’s gotta be rough. I don’t think Black women would care as much about who Black men date if Black men didn’t feel defensive or like they have to denegrate Black women to excuse it.

    It’s just immature to say “I like White girls because you Black girls do blah blah blah” instead of just saying “I’m dating this pretty girl and I really like her”. It just dehumanizes both Black and White women when people do that because it treats the White woman like she’s just a tool to upset Black woman or reach a higher status, and we all know why it dehumanizes Black women.

    Why not just leave it at a woman you want to date and stop treating their race as your deciding factor?


  58. @ Ace,

    seriously. why can’t you just be normal and not be stupid and brainwashed with hatred of black women?

    You can have a preference, but you don’t need to degrade and make black women feel inferior.


  59. You know…I was going to be active in this thread, but I’ve realized that it’s not worth it. I have a feeling that this thread will be yet another one filled with “strong” black women who lambast black men while failing at objectivity, and self-reflection. Black women who are quick to complain about opportunistic white racists (who will no doubt post in this thread under the guise of “caring”) negatively lumping all/most blacks (via heavy implications and not clarifying terms) together, while they do the exact same thing towards black men.

    Abagond, you were horribly shortsighted to make a dead-end thread like this, because it’s just going to be another “Black Women That White Men Like”, and I don’t have the fortitude to deal with such a topic. I’m sitting this one out.

    (Btw, bring on the insults.)


  60. I mean I know there are black man/white woman pairings who are not racist/self-hating. I KNOW they are out there, but people need to start addressing these racists/self-haters who are out there degrading other people.


  61. and please don’t mistake my comments for talking about ALL Black men. I am not talking about ALL Black men or ALL white women ONLY talking about the black men and white women who are racists against Black women and insulting.


  62. black men got issues.


  63. some people are so mean, I was shocked the first time I heard some of the stuff people were saying about Black women and to hear it coming from some Black men was amazing to me.


  64. As CJ – Canadian pointed out the numbers of Black men marrying non-Black women is not high enough to draw the amount of attention such unions draw. In truth the vast majority of Black men who are married are married to Black women. That’s a fact.

    In your post, Abagond, you state that, “Successful black men do go for white women to a shocking degree. It is not just a media stereotype.” Do you have numbers to back this up? Because I don’t really think this is the case.

    As you alluded to in your post, much of what is said about Black men and White women has a long history. A history based in racism and bigotry. Unfortunately many people, many of them Black, have taken this propaganda and internalized it. So much so that most don’t even realize that they’re regurgitating White racist propaganda.


  65. here is an example of a white woman who is positive towards Black women. After a supposed white woman sent a bigoted letter to Sister 2 Sister magazine about how evil Black women were, another white woman (who was also in an interracial relationship with a Black man) responded and checked the other white woman: http://academic.udayton.edu/race/05intersection/gender/sister.htm

    I appreciated her response, I think more white women need to start doing this and I would say it seems like she got into her relationship for the RIGHT reasons.


  66. Ace,

    If black man tells black woman he has the “right” to have sex with whomever he pleases and says in return that black woman can have the same “right,” BUT ALSO have the “right” to kill black child, WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT WILL DO to the psyche of the black woman? WHAT DOES IT SAY about the psyche of the black man?

    “White racism,” circa 2012, IS A SMOKESCREEN for a radically liberated black collective IN SERIOUS DENIAL about the state of their existence.


  67. @Peanut

    The vast majority of Black men love and have relationships with Black women. Unfortunately those men don’t have the platform nor get the attention that Black men who don’t like Black women have.

    Most of what’s said about Black women in the media is propaganda. As a Black woman it’s vital that we learn the history of this sort of propaganda so we can put all of this in perspective.

    Don’t believe the hype.


  68. I do have to say, I don’t see where this is becoming an anti-Black man thread. There is genuine frustration to be had about this subject, and I don’t see whats so wrong with some Black women venting on something that directly affects them (and they often wind up on the short end of the stick).

    I personally think that many Black men have not done a decent enough job in defending Black women, even if they choose to date White women. I have seen a lot of Black women willing to put up with negative behavior on the part of Black men, but I do see that many Black men use the little bit of power they have as men against Black women when it is opportunistic to do so. Instead of nodding along with the racist propaganda leveled at Black women, why not say “That’s not true, don’t use me to further your agenda. I just like this woman I’m with, it has nothing to do with my opinion of Black women”


  69. @Thordaddy,

    1. Black men do not unanimously support abortion, and neither do Black women. They are not monoliths, that has nothing to do with this conversation in any way.

    2. The only thing that affects the psyche of that Black woman is the degredation she experiences, and that didn’t just magically start with Black men.

    3. And yet all you have to do is talk to a Black person and you will find they’ve likely experienced this fictional “smokescreen” you talk about every day.


  70. I agree i don’t see how this is a black man bashing thing either. I hope you’re not talking about me because I’m not talking about all black men and I never said I was. I’m talking ONLY about the IDIOTS who call themselves Black men but go around bashing black women and worship white women. I can bring that up and talk about that if I want because it’s annoying and i’m tired of hiding my feelings about it.


  71. “I’m sitting this one out.

    (Btw, bring on the insults.)”

    ************************

    You’ll get no insults from me, sir. LOL
    Methinks you’ve made the right/wise call, once again.

    Sometimes folks just need to get stuff off their chests – and other folks, sometimes, just need to be silent and let that happen, without fanfare.

    I sense this is one of those times. : ))


  72. I agree i don’t see how this is a black man bashing thing either. I hope you’re not talking about me because I’m not talking about all black men and I never said I was. I’m talking ONLY about the fools who call themselves Black men but go around bashing black women and worship white women. I can bring that up and talk about that if I want because it’s annoying and i’m tired of hiding my feelings about it.


  73. I know most black men don’t act like this, but I’m tired of people not addressing the black men who do act like this…people just want to let stuff like this go on and on and not say anything.


  74. It’s a sad day when Black women have to apologize for not talking nicely about Black men who regularly debase them in the presence of White women, and it’s a sad day when people ignore what’s been said before about “white people” not equaling “all whites”.


  75. yes, instead of being offended by the things some of these white women and some of these black men are saying about Black women, people want to get upset because I’M upset about the evil generalizations they’re making about Black women…really?


  76. I guess some people would feel better if I just talked about Mary Poppins and how a spoonful of sugar will help the medicine go down.


  77. @peanut

    Black men are out! Nobody is dating black men anymore. Too many problems! Ask Heidi, she finally got tired of being verbally abused. I think we all know who REALLY has the attitude and is hard to deal with (and it aint black WOMEN).


  78. I’ll admit perhaps i’m focusing too much on the negative, however, i don’t HAVE to go searching for it to encounter it, it just pops up on a daily basis. am I supposed to not speak and just take this kinda of emotional abuse and be silent? If I see something I don’t lke i’m not gonna hold it in and be silent about it I am not a “STRONG BLACK WOMAN,” that is not me. I speak on what I don’t like and I express my feelings because that’s why some black women end up in an early grave from holding their feelings and frustrations in.


  79. @ ciara

    I’m not talking about all Black men, just these type of morons as I said. I know there are nice, respectable Black men out here. Abagond is an example of one. I just wish more of these nice, respectable black men would DEFEND Black women against these attacks instead of just sitting back silently…but what can I say?…it doesn’t happen often.


  80. I don’t think that would make people here feel better, your opinions on the subject are valid, and your experience is what many black women do deal with in regards to this subject. I don’t think people want to dismiss you or your frustrations, this is definitely the sort of topic that needs to be discussed.

    I do think that people of color have a habit of thinking that there has to be perfect solidarity with each other in order to confront the racism that opposes them. The problem is that many of those people also don’t want to confront the affects of that racism on them and their societies. I think it’s tough to be able to think about how there being such a divide between Black men and Black women in the community that exists purely due to racial propaganda. Most black men know how damaging propaganda and stereotypes can be, but there are ones who fail at seeing beyond the difficulties of being a Black male.


  81. Yea sis i feel ya. Black men will talk about black women like a dog, but then they turn around and don’t understand why the white man treats them like they do. Traitors get dealt with and that is what the black man is showing himself to be, a traitor.


  82. Ace,

    Why do black men have sexual relations with white women?

    1. They are at war with white man is thus such act is an “act of war.”

    2. They hold a firm belief in radical sexual autonomy, i.e., they believe they can “screw” whomever they please.

    3. They hate black woman.

    See the difference?

    In Abagond’s formulation, black man’s sexual proclivities are a product of external forces out of his hands.

    In my formulation, black man is in FULL CONTROL of his sexual proclivities.

    Abagond is attempting to maximize the autonomy of the black man (himself) without the black man (himself) having to actually suffer the consequences of his choices (be at the blunt end of the ABW’s ire).

    He has not as of yet REJECTED the idea that black man may have sexual relations WITH WHOMEVER HE PLEASES.


  83. Peanut says,
    @ ashante:

    I agree. I never cared about black men dating white women UNTIL I started hearing those evil, degrading, insulting youtube videos and media attacks by black men (and some white women) against Black women. I personally think some white women and black men actually ENJOY getting attention (whether negative or positive) for their relationship and provoke other people into saying stuff.

    laromana says,
    Peanut,
    I strongly agree with all of your comments regarding the MANY manifestations of American BW HATE CULTURE that BW are subjected to from EVERYONE (especially from BM). This is UNACCEPTABLE/WRONG and NO ONE should be “surprised” that BW are insulted/offended by this mistreatment.

    I believe that BW have the RIGHT to TAKE OFFENSE AT/DEFEND THEMSELVES AGAINST ALL ANTI-BW HATE/HATERS.


  84. @Peanut

    MOST black men are self hating jerks, sorry not a few but MOST. Let’s just face it. Abagond is no less damaged beyond repair since his wife divorced his ass.


  85. Ok, after “this” post I’ll leave this thread. Because I was done, until I saw one too many examples of extreme dishonesty.

    @ Ace

    That was obviously directed at me, since I’m the one of only ones to take issue with this thread. I’ve seen how this type of conversation devolves, time after time again, without fail.

    @Ace and Peanut

    No one was asking Black Women to apologize for bringing up concerning issues. That was a strawman, and (Peanut) the sarcasm about Mary Poppins was unnecessary. But even YOU two can (if you are honest) admit that there is a vocal (and deranged) segment of black women who always hijack these very important discussions, so they can peddle their lunacy and end up doing the very same thing they accuse black men of. Just switch the genders of the whites.

    All I’m saying is be consistent with every post. Don’t be lazy and fail to use clarifying words like “some”, because every time that happens, you end up with another virtual Black Male Castration Rally. Which doesn’t do anything outside of drawing in agenda driven “concerned” white’s, and just creates more pointless animosity between black men and women.

    With that, “I’m out” until I see Abagond make a new topic.

    (*refreshed the page before submitting post*)

    Looks like I was too late…


  86. and I know there are black men/white women couples out there who truly just love each other and they’re positive people. I know that there are white women in interracial relationships for the right reasons, as there are Black men. I can usually tell when I interact with those type of couples because they’re usually just so relaxed and cool with people. You know you seem, they act normal, you talk to them and you just get a good vibe from them and after a while and things are just cool with us.

    So, I know those couples are out there and for them I say all the happiness to you, be blessed and thank you for being respectful and not looking down on people.


  87. @ Franklin,

    I agree with you, I am pretty sure I have indicated that I’m talking about SOME Black men in my comments though, so I don’t know why you brought that up…it did seem like you were trying to get me (and others) to shut up or else why would you make that comment, when I’ve indicated that I AM only talking about some black men and SOME white women…


  88. @ Sandra,

    let’s not bring abagond personal life into this please and I don’t think MOST black men are jerks, i think MOST Black PEOPLE probably have some self-hatred because we live in a white supremacist society. But i disagree that MOST Black men are jerks like the ones I’ve been talking about. I know its only SOME, the problem is not enough people speaking up and defending black women from these SELECT jerks who are making all these problems…that’s my issue


  89. Peanut,

    YOU might live in a “white supremacist” society, but you DEFINITELY don’t live AMONGST genuine white Supremacists nor have you EVER actually interacted with one… Until now.


  90. @ Franklin,

    Dishonesty? That sounds familiar.

    My post was directly referring to Peanut and how she felt about how her posts were being taken, as well as my own personal frustration with the situation, again it is not the responsibility of other people to have to write “most” instead of “all”, you should know that already. It is a tough topic to talk about (since you seem to have ignored the rest of my post), so it is to be expected that people are going to express their feelings on the topic and it’s not going to be pretty. And part of what you said irks me because you went out of your way to say your rather negative feelings on certain types of “anti-black men” Black women in the first place.

    @ Thordaddy,

    Black men do not unanimously hate black women. They do not unanimously want to wage war with white men through dating black women. Despite what you want to think, black people are not always thinking how to get one over on the white man, they are capable of personal relationships you know…


  91. thordaddy,

    How could you even begin to know that?


  92. Ask yourself why Truthbetold (black woman) and Franklin (assuming he is a black man) would drop out of this discussion when TD has given them something real to chew on?

    Truthbetold doesn’t want to publicly affirm a white boy’s clear insights about the BELIEFS of the black man.

    And Franklin, he just can’t bring himself to REJECT radical sexual autonomy nor can he deny that he is at war with the white man and doing his white woman IS a bona fide “act of war.”


  93. are you talking about yourself thordaddy?


  94. honestly i don’t really pay attention to your comments, but from some of what other people have said you might be a white supremacist yourself


  95. last comment was for thordaddy


  96. Abagond,

    I haven’t submitted a single post that required moderation nor have I given you ANY REASON to think you would have to moderate me.


  97. There were five comments in moderation. All have been released.


  98. Peanut,

    Do you think Supremacy = degeneracy?

    Are you into that “abstract liberalism” stuff that Abagond was talking about?

    Why do black men have sexual relations with white women?

    Have you actually answered that question?


  99. This topic interests me, as a black African woman living in Africa. Interracial relationships here are mostly between white men and black women, its very rare to see a black man with a white woman. Maybe because we are the majority? *shrugs*.

    As a YouTube addict and an avid reader of Black blogs, this issue has come up too many times, to the point I realized it was a sore topic among the African diaspora.

    For those interested in answering, I have a few queries:

    1. Is this truly an issue? How visible is it? Can I correctly assume that if Black men had a choice of women they would least likely pick a Black woman? Especially a dark complected woman?

    2. Do the white women they date and/or marry understand the effects of racism, aware of the anti-racist “movement”? Are they capable of raising bi-racial kids who may choose to self-identify as Black?

    3. As Black women in the diaspora (I know many face marginalization in their societies) is there a certain behaviour within your communities that may trigger Black men to this? I mean no disrespect.

    I am interested in seeing the comments on this post evolve, as TBH as a black woman in a black majority country this is not an issue.


  100. @ Thordaddy,

    Are you kidding me? Maybe they don’t want to take your “insights” on the matter because you offer none? Throwing jargon into your statements make them any more substantial or correct. And why bring their personal lives into anything? You don’t know how they think.


  101. @ thordaddy
    I don’t have to answer your question, I don’t even really pay attention to you.


  102. abagond’s my friend (online) don’t insult his intelligence please. he’s an intelligent man.


  103. @ Franklin

    “Abagond, you were horribly shortsighted to make a dead-end thread like this, because it’s just going to be another “Black Women That White Men Like”, and I don’t have the fortitude to deal with such a topic. I’m sitting this one out.”

    Believe me, I know just how this is going to end and it is going to be extremely ugly. Which is why I have been avoiding doing this post for the longest time but which I promised to do, unfortunately.


  104. malkia asks:

    1. Is this truly an issue? How visible is it? Can I correctly assume that if Black men had a choice of women they would least likely pick a Black woman? Especially a dark complected woman?

    2. Do the white women they date and/or marry understand the effects of racism, aware of the anti-racist “movement”? Are they capable of raising bi-racial kids who may choose to self-identify as Black?

    3. As Black women in the diaspora (I know many face marginalization in their societies) is there a certain behaviour within your communities that may trigger Black men to this? I mean no disrespect.

    __________________________________________

    1. It’s ONLY an issue when certain self-hating black men and certain racist white women MAKE it a problem. SOME Black men would and HAVE chosen Black women last (especially dark complected black women), others won’t choose a Black woman last.

    2. In my experience, SOME white women are completely oblivious and or don’t care about Black issues/racism, even if they’re dating a Black man.

    3. The behavior within our communities that triggers black men is the white supremacy/self-hate that is taught to them both directly and indirectly from birth.


  105. Ace,

    Do you really think I come in here to “kid?”

    Peanut,

    Do what you want. Do who you want. And don’t give single explanation of why you do it. You will get no closer to any black man.

    Which commentator, outside of me, has rejected radical sexual autonomy?

    And you folks really wonder why the black man/black woman dynamic is so damaged?


  106. “do who I want?”

    what’s the supposed to mean I never said anything about not wanting to have sex with Black men or other men for that matter. so what ARE YOU talking about?

    gosh you make some ridiculous assumptions.


  107. I haven’t said ANYTHING negative about all black men if YOU’RE NOT A SELF-HATING FOOL, THEN I’M NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU.

    WHY? Is that so difficult for you to grasp?


  108. I SUPPORT Black men, I have black brothers, black father, black cousins…I don’t think they’re all bad and evil…what are you talking about “this is the reason black men/black women relationships are this way yada yada yada”

    SO BASICALLY what you are saying is when Black woman stands up for herself she’s the reason that black relationships are failing (allegedly) self-hating/crazy black MEN have nothing to do with this…gimme a break


  109. @ Matari

    “Sometimes folks just need to get stuff off their chests – and other folks, sometimes, just need to be silent and let that happen, without fanfare.

    I sense this is one of those times. : ))”

    That sounds about right,


  110. I just wanna live my life in peace and not have to have my beauty and dignity attacked as black woman, then have people tell me “i’m angry or have an attitude,” when I defend myself.


  111. Peanut,

    If you as black woman believe you can have sexual relations with whomever you please and black man believes the exact same things while you both agree that you may kill black child in utero, HOW HEALTHY do you think the black man/black woman relationship will be???

    These are THE REAL BELIEFS of the black American collective.

    But you think this is all about “white supremacy.”

    You don’t even know what white Supremacy really is.

    You’ve been duped. By who is the question?


  112. i never said anything about killing babies, you’re not making any sense.


  113. @Peanut tell’em why you mad son!


  114. and i never said i believed I could have sex with anyone, I said i never said that I WOULDN’T have sex with black men or any other men. that’s what i said.

    ideally, i would only be having sex with my husband anyway, who in all likelihood would be Black because those are the men I gravitate to. But, i may not wait until marriage, i have needs to and I can’t wait FOREVER for some man to propose to me when he’s done sowing his oats.


  115. @ joseph,

    I’m sorry, but I am not son, I am a woman.


  116. unless you were just using it as a form of slang and you call all women son, then that’s fine..but i am a woman.


  117. Peanut,

    That’s good to hear, but you are outside the mainstream beliefs of the American black collective.


  118. Could it be that in this we see the racist System at work? I mean, basically who cares with whom one wants to live with, be with, have sex with? I have no objections to any realtionship if the ones in it are happy and good to each other. BUT

    This is a sore subject and it is (for many) a very painful thing. It is loaded with symbolism, meanings and messages. Why? To make black women and men fight about it? To give those white racists like thordaddy some ammunition to direct at blacks?

    There is something really weird on this going on. I have no explanations for it. I just say that from my perspective it seems that this whole talk about “interracial relationships” shows very clearly how racist the american System is and how deep it penetrates into peoples lives. It can fK you up in so many ways, even in your very personal and intimate life.

    Just think about it for a moment: instead of loving someone, you look at the color of that person. Instead of having sex with a person, you have sex with a “race”. How sick is that? How pervert is that?

    @V4: “Well; thats not quite accurate, italians are higher on the white scale but pretty much Kim K is white like mexicans are white….thats a closer to accurate statement.”

    White scale??? How twisted and pervert is that?


  119. @ sam

    yes, i agree. it’s messed up.


  120. @ thordaddy…

    umm…how am I in the minority I think MOST Black women are intimate with Black men probably.


  121. @ commentarybyvalentina

    “@Peanut

    The vast majority of Black men love and have relationships with Black women. Unfortunately those men don’t have the platform nor get the attention that Black men who don’t like Black women have.

    Most of what’s said about Black women in the media is propaganda. As a Black woman it’s vital that we learn the history of this sort of propaganda so we can put all of this in perspective.

    Don’t believe the hype.”

    I agree with this.

    I will try to get you the numbers on successful black men marrying out. I believe the break-even point is an income of $100,000: most married black men who make less than that marry black, most who make more do not.


  122. Sam says,

    “I mean, basically who cares with whom one wants to live with, be with, have sex with?”

    See, you think you are making some kind of moral declaration. In fact, you are showing us your submission to radical autonomy, a completely immoral stance.

    Do you really think it’s immoral for black women to take offense at the sight of a black man and white woman.


  123. What I think is going on in these sorts of discussions when they turn ugly:

    1. Black men who go with white women for reasons of self-hatred feel the need to bash black women. Sergeant Willie Pete was classic.

    2. Then black women who have self-hatred issues start bashing black men. Not just the ones in Step #1 but in general.

    3. It becomes a vicious, ugly circle.

    4. Of those without self-hatred issues, some women will join in feeling the need to defend black women while most men will sit it out seeing it as a lose-lose no matter which side they choose.


  124. @ Ace

    “I do think that people of color have a habit of thinking that there has to be perfect solidarity with each other in order to confront the racism that opposes them. The problem is that many of those people also don’t want to confront the affects of that racism on them and their societies. I think it’s tough to be able to think about how there being such a divide between Black men and Black women in the community that exists purely due to racial propaganda. Most black men know how damaging propaganda and stereotypes can be, but there are ones who fail at seeing beyond the difficulties of being a Black male.”

    I agree.


  125. @ Thordaddy

    I think everyone has a right to be with who they want regardless of race. But I also think some people get into interracial relationships for unsound reasons, more so than intra-racially. Mainly because of how racism has screwed up our minds.


  126. @ abagond

    I really hope you’re not talking about me in number one. Please tell me what have I said that is “bashing” ALL Black men? When have i EVER bashed ALL Black men?

    I’m the one doing most of talking, so you MUST be talking about me. with all due respect abagond, I don’t see that I have bashed Black men at all.


  127. I chose Kim K because I think she is (well, was) beautiful (well, if I do not think too much about how she got that way). That made writing the post more balanced and serious for me. Heidi Klum and other blondes just do not do it for me.


  128. @ Peanut

    I am talking generally, not about this thread so far, which is still doing pretty good. Your comments have all been reasonable.


  129. okay good. thank you


  130. kim kardashian is okay. she benefits from her ww privilege, but i don’t think she actively bashes Black women or anything.

    my annoyance with her stems more so from the fact that she really has no talent, but yet gets all this fame and praise. But black women who do the same thing get lambasted and branded a whore and wiped out of the media.

    But i suppose that’s not all kim’s fault, she could acknowledge her privilege as a ww at least though.


  131. “I was shocked the first time I heard some of the stuff people were saying about Black women and to hear it coming from some Black men was amazing to me.”

    Yes, I too was shocked. I’ve been online for 16 years and though nowadays you might notice a variety of people taking pot-shots at Black women, back then it was overwhelming self-identified black males who were posting some of the most heinous, misogynistic, anti-BW propaganda I have ever come across in my life up until today.

    And it wasn’t just the old cliched “attitude” stereotype being bandied about either, it was far worse than that. BW in general were being verbally sliced and diced starting at their hair and ending at the tips of their toenails. One might have thought s/he was witnessing some kind of Klan / Stormfront beet-red-faced, blood-vessel-bursting hissyfit about Blacks in general rather than the blind hatred certain black men had for Black women (yeah, some of that stuff probably was written by poseurs. It certainly wouldn’t be anything unusual. It seems to me there’s at least one WM who still occasionally makes post to the commentary of this blog while pretending to be a monumental Uncle Tom).


  132. every one has had that experience, that’s how prevalent of a problem it is.


  133. Abagond,

    I already know what you think. You’re a black liberationist.

    What you are not acknowledging IS THE CONSEQUENCE of such belief EVEN THOUGH the EFFECTS are right on this blog for all to read.


  134. @thordaddy

    Your posts are nonsense, and add nothing to the discussion. Your litter your responses with anomalous jargon, for which I can only surmise is an attempt to keep others from disputing you by removing common language.
    In a gist, you continue with these superfluous questions, which often appear to be completely unrelated, and subsequent posts display a childishly smug attitude as if you proved some point. Yet, no one saw it and so you repeat the process.
    It is asinine, at best.
    I would suggest you to sod off, but I know that will only fuel your desire to troll.
    I just wanted to let you know, that you are not fooling anyone.
    You are neither clever nor witty. You do not provide any amusement. You do not add any layers of thought to the discussion.
    In short, you are just another absurd presence clogging up the airways with your babble.
    I’m sure I’m not the only one on to your little sham.


  135. Wampinao,

    I find it rather amusing that so many foreigners think they can tell me more about my house than I can tell you about my house.

    Not a single person has rebutted MY ANSWERS as to why the black man seeks sexual relations with the white woman.

    In fact, Abagond just reasserted what I’ve said from the beginning.

    Black men seek sexual relations with white women BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE they can have sexual relations with whomever they please. This is called Radical sexual autonomy.

    This is not rocket science, Mr. Scientist.

    I also asserted that black man seeks sexual
    relations with the white woman as an act of war in the black man’s liberation. You may disagree, but that’s just because you know nothing about MY HOUSE.


  136. Now, Mr. Scientist… What kind of effects would you predict for those that hold this belief in radical sexual autonomy?

    Would you predict a healthy, monogamous, child-producing marriage to a compatible individual?

    What if you thought all modern black women believed in radical sexual autonomy?

    Would you predict that the black man would hold the modern black woman in higher regard?

    If Abagond applied this “I think anyone can be with anyone else” principle to himself or his children (assuming he has children), how much legitimacy would his writings have?

    Sorry Mr. Scientist, but you stuck on stunted.


  137. @ Thordaddy

    No one has rebutted you because arguing with you is a waste of time.

    For example:

    ———–

    THORDADDY: But then again, I haven’t heard you actually reject radical sexual autonomy. I haven’t read you say that you would sexually reject a white female nor have I read you

    ABAGOND: I think everyone has a right to be with who they want regardless of race.

    THORDADDY: I already know what you think. You’re a black liberationist. What you are not acknowledging IS THE CONSEQUENCE of such belief EVEN THOUGH the EFFECTS are right on this blog for all to read.

    ———–

    I feel like I am talking to the King Toad or something.


  138. Abagond,

    You can’t say that the black man may be with whomever he pleases and then complain when he chooses a white woman by suggesting such choice as learned self-hatred at the hands of “white supremacy.”

    Actually, you can say that, but now how worthless is your principle that asserts that the black man can be with whomever he pleases?


  139. @ Thordaddy

    I just deleted a comment of yours. Please stay on topic. If that is too hard for you, then I will ban you. I cannot babysit my blog 24/7.


  140. here is another great video

    I love how he tries to excuse brainwashing as being natural, but he doesn’t really know anything about culture or beauty standards. If you put hattie mcdaniel (a very talented actress) but who always was made to look unattractive and asexual next to Vivien Leigh who is all done up, wearing make up and pretty dresses…OF COURSE people are going to find the white woman more attractive, they’re putting her next to someone who has been MADE to look unattractive to assuage the insecurity of the white woman. That is why there is an unwritten rule in Hollywood that you don’t put equally attractive Black women and white women in equal roles in Hollywood, because then God forbid people would see that beauty has no color and white women aren’t superior to Black women.


  141. HEY PEANUT:

    maybe this explaination my husband provided as to why some bm bash bw to white folks will help you. i cut and pasted it from the other post. also, nobody said bm shouldnt date or marry a ww, we are just saying dont dog us out when you do it:

    my hubby said the reason for doing it with a white woman and man are different: he said they bash bw to ww cuz they want to raise her self esteem therefore setting her up to get money, when she finally denies the request for money OR when she starts fussing back about his lying and cheating OR when she starts to nagging about him getting a job, he can say: YOU’RE ACTING JUST LIKE AN EVIL BLACK
    WOMEN!!! and that will cause the white women to give the money or stop arguing because she wants to think she is BETTER than the bw. my hubs called it “mind fuckery”.

    okay, with a white man, he said the bm does it cuz it makes him feel on the same level as the white man. hell they have something in common: THEY BOTH HATE NI66ERs!! also,they want to seem like a non threatning bm, they cant be a threat cuz they got a white wife too! also, he said its something that men do: they talk down about a woman so no other man will try to get with her, the old I DONT WANT ANYONE ELSE TO HAVE YOU. so they make bw seem bad so the white man wont get it in his mind to try to hook up with one.


  142. @ Thordaddy

    What are you? Fourteen? Part of the cost of freedom, of free will, is that people will make bad decisions.


  143. and about white women being more “sexually open.” That’s one of the dumber stereotypes I’ve heard. For one thing there’s no way to prove that because no one truly knows what goes on in people’s bedrooms and what is considered kinky or being sexually open varies from individual to individual and finally, white women don’t have the Jezebel stereotype branded to their names the way Black women do.

    As I said earlier, Kim Kardashian put out a sex tape with Ray J or whoever and she ends up on the cover of Glamour and People and Cosmo and is lauded like a goddess.

    If a Black woman does the same thing, she’s a ho and gets banned from being on TV altogether. So there’s a double standard there. Black women don’t have the privilege of being “sexually open,” IN A PUBLIC WAY as white women do.

    Also the government tries to control Black women’s sexuality by coming up with policies like welfare reform, enforcing birth control and abortions because people fear that Black women are so sexual that they’ll reproduce at unprecedented rates and bring all these crack babies and criminals into the world. So people have always tried to control and restrict Black women’s sexuality in order to control the Black population and you can read all about that in Dorothy Roberts Killing the Black Body or in Sister Citizen by Melissa Harris Perry.

    In slavery, it was beneficial for Black women to be “overly-sexual,” but since we’re no longer property and our wombs aren’t valued because they don’t produce wealth for white people any more, people want to control and restrict Black women’s sexuality.


  144. Abagond,

    Do what you want. I’m always on topic. This is serious business and now you’re going all chumpish. You think by treating this exchange like some joke that those who lurk won’t see or understand?

    What are your actual “credentials” to be asserting what you assert?

    Think how detached from reality a person has to be to blog on these topics and not expect push back?

    BLACK MAN seeks sexual relations with white woman BECAUSE IT HIS “RIGHT” to be with whomever he pleases.

    Say it loud and proud…

    What will black woman think?

    Will she say, “you go, big dawg!!!”

    Will she be indifferent, neutral, tolerant, nondiscriminating?

    Or will she be MAD AS HELL…

    Which black woman actually has the healthiest mind?

    Come on, Abagond… Your F-game is not inspiring at all.


  145. I leave in France and trust me, the phenomena (bm dated ww) is far worst here. I thought about it and I do agree with you, Abagond, on this point: the white idea of beauty plays a huge role in such situation.


  146. @ abagond

    According to a study completed by Hitsch, Hortascu, and Ariely (2006) on online dating, White women resist dating out of their group.

    An African American male can do as well with white women if he earns $154 000, [on average] MORE than a white man with same attributes.


  147. Here is a link:

    http://home.uchicago.edu/~hortacsu/onlinedating.pdf

    I think the WW/BM trend is overstated. Sure WW/BMs are hooking up, But the **lasting** relationships…well, i have yet to see an abundance of.

    JT


  148. For me, it’s the area I live in (TN), where there aren’t that many Blacks in comparison to, say Memphis or even Nashville. Heck, the pool of general mates (women for me) isn’t something to write home about, unless you’re into flings, step-children, or “Springer drama” (<would be an interesting post, Abagond). I prefer a quality woman, regardless of make, though my first preference is Black women (similar culture). Relocating to another area looks promising by the day…SMH!


  149. @thordaddy:

    “See, you think you are making some kind of moral declaration. In fact, you are showing us your submission to radical autonomy, a completely immoral stance.”

    You gotta be kiddin me? You talk about morals? One thing that I have learned in life is this: those who talk about moral loudest, are the ones who have least morals. You fit right in there, buddy. You are a moralist, not a moral being. Big difference. And, just like you, a moralist is always a hypocrite.

    “Do you really think it’s immoral for black women to take offense at the sight of a black man and white woman.”

    No. She can do what ever she wants to do. You don’t seem to get it. That is what Freedom is all about. It is about letting you behave like a snot nose kid who thinks he has found wisdom in his little head by repeating his one and only idea (radical autonomy, what ever that is, in your case). It is also about letting people do what ever they want with their lives as long as they don’t hurt others.

    I know for a scared little whiner like yourself that is the most horrible idea of them all because if everybody would do as they please, then EVERYBODY WOULD BE DOING WHAT EVER THEY WANT!!!

    Ad isn’t that a scary? No. It is the way it should be.


  150. @ thordaddy:

    Like abagond said: Freedom means that people choose, perhaps make mistakes.

    I have made mistakes, bad choices, fKed up royally, done bad things, got lost, made wrong turns, but I have learned all along. I know what is wrong. It is to hurt your fellow man. Everything else, bring it on. Go for it. Do as you please. Live your Life. It is the only one here you got. Why not to live it? Why listen to commands from a scared little guy like yourself?

    I say just live, Breathe. Eat, drink. Enjoy. Listen to a good song. Read a good book. Feel it. Learn. And when the day comes, when the last count is in, you know something, perhaps not much, but at least something. Perhaps you know that you lived the wrong way, but you know that too. That is what Freedom is all about: Living.


  151. It’s funny how this topic has brought out the deranged BWE crowd (like Sandra and Janet) and white supremacists, seperatists and other such ish.
    It’s also funny how black women are talking about getting dissed by black men yet they feel “justified” to diss us back.
    It’s also funny how black women (especially the BWE crowd) love to point out (and also lie and embellish) the negative statistics of black men, yet they cry foul when black men use statistics to discredit them!

    Now the manginas might buy into the BWE crowd sob story but the rest of the world doesn’t.


  152. @Penut

    You are acting like a black male identifying mammy. It’s MOST perhaps when you grow older you will see how deep the black mans hate for black women goes, but maybe not most don’t. I can’t think about any other community in America that hates their women like black men do. If they didn’t hate black women why do they treat black women like MOST do?

    Sorry everyone is a thinking being, just as I don’t excuse racism I don’t excuse self hating black men. Saying we live in a racist society is just an excuse for them to act like they do. Everyone has control of their lives.

    A black man CAN’T date a light skinned woman, a mixed woman or a white woman without being self hating just as white people can’t do certain things without being racist


  153. “@Penut

    You are acting like a black male identifying mammy.”

    A typical BWE/Feminist tactic. If a BWE see another black women thinking differently from their agenda then she’s a “mammy”!
    For a crowd that wants black women to be free thinking and independant. They sure have a funny way of showing it.

    “I can’t think about any other community in America that hates their women like black men do.”

    I can’t think of any other community in America that hates their men like black women do.

    “If they didn’t hate black women why do they treat black women like MOST do?”

    Explain?

    “A black man CAN’T date a light skinned woman, a mixed woman or a white woman without being self hating just as white people can’t do certain things without being racist”

    That is just question begging at it’s finest. Here’s how:
    1. A light skinned black woman is still a black woman. So how’s that self hating?
    2. If a white man dates an olive skinned white woman. Would he be self hating as well?
    3. If white man starts dating outside his race. Is he self hating as well?
    4. What about a black woman that only dates light skinned black men. Is she full of self hate aswell?
    5. What if a black women is dating a non black man. Is she full of self hate as well?


  154. Yo Abagond,

    Please leave Sandra’s comment to Peanut alone. I want people to see just how irrational, foolish and hypocritical the women of the BWE movement actually are!


  155. Wow, a lot of comments and controversy. My own attitude toward BM/WW couples has always been “c’est la vie” or “live and let live”. I do perceive that the dynamics of some of these relationships have in the past been driven at least in part by racial stereotypes and internalized racism. I perceive also that this is not so much the case among the younger generations nowadays.

    Agabond, I’d be interested to know if you have any insights with respect to the phenomenon one often sees, especially around my home town, of black men with obese white women. Is it as simple as a cultural preference for thick women, or is it more about what Chris Rock suggests in his stand-up, that these women are considered the “dregs” by white culture, thereby creating a dynamic of black men accepting the “scraps” left by white men? Or perhaps an admixture of these concepts?


  156. These sort of convos can get nasty, I’m sure you all know willy pete. However even in his “discussuions” the main characters are always black men, black women, and white women. The white men seem to be somehow left out of the conversation until he starts ranting how when black women do it they are just trying to get even and have some sort of ulterior motive . To him white men are not seen as masculine, so how could a black woman have true feelings for a white man(bullsh)

    So I think its time for a white man’s perspective. Since we have been left out of many of the conversations.

    I’ll start with a personal example. My wife and I have two small children and we are very happily married. I go out from time to time, She goes out from time to time. We have been to the same mixed bar without each other. Each of us has been hit on by black people. In my experience, just seeing the black girl flirting,(not humping on the dance floor), but just flirting gets crazy eyes from black guys at the other end of the bar. But the same guys had slutty white girls hanging all over them. Now how is that any sense of fairness. I have seen this scenario many times before so it is not a lone example.

    My wife on the other hand has been basically sexually assaulted by black guys on the dance floor. She’s up there dancing with her girlfriends and some guy starts humping her without an invitation. Now I know the slutty white girls are partly to blame for this , but any generalization is wrong and in this case it was very wrong. She pushed the guy away. Next she’s sitting at the bar minding her own buz, the same guy comes over and puts his arm around her, again no invitation, she says “I’m married”. His response was “what to a white boy” She said no ” To a MAN” The guy finally got it and moved on.

    Now it is also my experience that white men get blamed . Now how the hell is it a white man’s fault that that particular guy was so aggressive. He was an idiot, but I guarantee he found some takers just because he’s black, a white idiot like that wouldn’t EVER get laid.


  157. A lot of things to read and review.

    “A black man CAN’T date a light skinned woman, a mixed woman or a white woman without being self hating just as white people can’t do certain things without being racist”.

    Obviously this isn’t true. Black Americans come in all sorts of shades. There is no reason to automatically assume that a black man who is dating a black woman lighter than himself is automatically self-hating. There are tons of black women and black men who are self-hating and who are married to black folks of their skin tone or darker.

    Some self-identified black men and black women are very light or biracial. Who should they date or marry? If they marry someone darker than themselves are they self-hating? Are both halves of a B/W interracial couple self-hating or does this only apply to BM/WW couples-specifically Black men.
    Inquring minds would like to know.

    Only approximately 7.6% of married black men are married to white women.
    White women are the least likely of any female cohort to marry interracially.

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/01/29/us/20110130mixedrace.html

    However one wants to define “successful” it appears that the majority of successful black men who do marry, marry black women. Overall roughly 87% of married black men are married to black women. So the wailing and gnashing of teeth makes no sense. The black women who claim to want to be married and aren’t shouldn’t blame white women or black men for their issues. Like with everyone else, it’s personal.

    Re Kardashian: She is of Armenian, Dutch and Scottish ancestry. That spells “white” in America. Armenians are literally Caucasians so I don’t get why there would be any questions about whether she’s white or not.

    The BM/WW combo gets the most disdain from society for a lot of different reasons. It’s surprising that so many people still feel compelled to bleat forth stereotypes or attempt to control who other people decide to marry. So it goes.


  158. Good morning all,

    I see my decision to leave this post last night was the right one.

    In order to understand why some black men want white women, we must first go to the root of the situation.
    It started with slavery.

    A black man, who was denied his self worth, had only one thing to use as a weapon to punish the white slavemaster, his sexual prowess.
    The ability to bed and STEAL a white woman was an excellent tool.
    The taboo nature of this made it all the more desirable.

    When some black men look into the eyes of his black woman, he not only sees promises of what may come, he sees:
    His Failures
    His lost dreams
    His weaknesses
    His privileges denied
    His rage at society

    That kind of intimacy and truth can be jarring, scary and exciting all at the same time.
    Please note that American media doesn’t help either.
    Black women have always gotten a raw deal.
    We were seen as unattractive, demanding, slovenly, uneducated and sexually loose from day one.

    Blame the media for that.

    While there are SOME black men who prefer to date non black women, most black men traditionally date and marry black women and are happy to do so.

    Make no mistake about it.
    There is always a group of people of colour who hate themselves and use their own hatred to justify this behaviour.

    But there are also men, of any race, who happen to fall in love with any woman, of any race, and it’s none of anyone’s business if they do.

    I, as a black woman of mixed heritage, find the love of a strong, educated, passionate black man to be unmatched.
    He understands my plight without me having to say a word.
    And loves me just the same.


  159. @truth I get what you are saying, but ultimately YOU control your own actions. Remember that Columbine High School shooting. Remember they were blaming everything from “Marilyn Manson” to violent video games, to movies, cartoons, etc. But ultimately it was the parents fault, and the kid himself.

    When you make excuses for people you are not helping them , you are hurting them.


  160. @ Dave

    I’m not making excuses, I’m merely trying to give reasonable explainations as to why this occurs.

    I do not believe in ANYTHING perpetuated by the media.
    The media has an agenda to control our lives by controlling our thoughts.
    This is my opinion.


  161. @JT

    “watches eco wave confederate flag solemnly”

    huh? Have I ever agreed with thordaddy? EVER? Nope.
    I try not to make any comments about the state of mind of black people. Most of the time I comment when people say things about whites.
    I think thordaddy makes as little sense as Menelik Charles. Actually, thordaddy may be even less coherent and that’s one hell of an “accomplishment”.

    @Peanut

    “If you put hattie mcdaniel (a very talented actress) but who always was made to look unattractive and asexual next to Vivien Leigh who is all done up, wearing make up and pretty dresses…OF COURSE people are going to find the white woman more attractive, they’re putting her next to someone who has been MADE to look unattractive to assuage the insecurity of the white woman.”

    I think it’s about white man’s desires, not white woman’s insecurities. Asian women are seen as cute, delicate and submissive instead of boyish and asexual. Latinas are sultry and a bit wild, instead of welfare queens. This obviously isn’t how white women see them. If white men were more into Black women their image would be more positive or at least more sexualized (more Jezebel and much less Sapphire).

    “That is why there is an unwritten rule in Hollywood that you don’t put equally attractive Black women and white women in equal roles in Hollywood, because then God forbid people would see that beauty has no color and white women aren’t superior to Black women.”

    I sincerely doubt that.


  162. @peanut

    I listened to the recording of the Vanessa Feltz show and must confess to being bemused by the BM commenter. Stating that BW are by and large ‘repulsive’ and even the most average BW are not comparable to the most average WW! REAL insightful comments there!!!!! I could hear the amusement in her voice too but she does generally come across in this way so i’m not sure that its smugness on her part????

    But look who he was talking to? A WW that most WM would balk at getting together with. No offence to Vanessa, she is a whole lotta woman and maybe in part, men WM might feel intimidated by being with a woman like her too cos similarly to the perception of BW I dont reckon she would take any crap either.

    BTW, I am guessing you know she is with a BM?

    Meanwhile I echo some of the post on here made by other commenters – I absolutely dont care who people choose to be with but I abhor men/people who justify their ‘choice’ by running down, into the ground, the people they decide not to be with.


  163. “@truth I get what you are saying, but ultimately YOU control your own actions. ”

    100% agree. besides this is 2012, not 1930.


  164. Abagond,
    Discomfort with this pairing is seen primarily in the United States.
    When I travel abroad to visit relatives, this pairing along with many other pairings, receives little if no attention.

    America has suffered from the reeling effects of slavery and this is the outcome.
    I secretly suspect that this is the white man’s greatest fear, to have his woman stolen from him by someone deemed inferior. After all, money rules, right? But sexual prowess cannot be bought.
    As you can see by the vemon spewed here, perhaps this is true, no?

    Black women’s beauty is seen in a VERY different light outside of the US.
    Therefore the ” golden white woman ” is not put on the pedestal.
    She isn’t an ornament to be displayed on the mantle, collecting dust.
    She is just an ordinary woman who happens to be white.

    America has been the source of the black woman’s pain since we landed here in chains. The comments here from other black women who are angry, hurt and wanting to vent is proof of that.
    Black men, like black women, are free to love as they wish.

    The vitriol at THIS particular pairing is due to 450 plus years of hurt.


  165. @ temple

    Yes, it is not 1930.
    We now have a black president.
    We are now mostly middle class.

    But the remains of our past still lingers.
    The stigma of the black beast and the helpless white woman in heat will live on regardless of what year it is.

    One cannot truly deny that the past is responsible for the anger at this pairing.
    If the tables were reversed and it’s black woman/ white man, then the anger would be at the black woman wanting to the secretly dominated.

    I understand that anger here with some commentators.
    I do not feel it directly due to the fact that I am not an American.
    I am also of multiracial heritage and see this and other pairings in my own kin.
    But the anger still remains.
    Why?

    Because we haven’t moved on from the past.


  166. “Because we haven’t moved on from the past.”

    but there’s no question that we definitely need to move on from the past. because we’re allowing it to keep us crippled. there is no excuse why, once you know there’s a problem, instead of doing the work to repair it, you continue to ride the problem on a tidal wave of excuse making.

    whatever damage slavery & jim crow did to black people should be repaired by now or well along that road to repair. only black people of today are responsible for the colorism with it’s own community, only black people of today are responsible for the abysmal fatherless rates of their own children. you’ve listed all reasons black people got to this sorry place, but why aren’t black people making any effort within their own community to correct the internalised reasons for perpetuating them against each other.

    maybe that’s why whites don’t take you seriously. just saying.


  167. @ temple

    Damages done by Jim crow and slavery have been ingrained into our collective thought processes.
    It’s not that we as people of colour haven’t tried to move forward, we HAVE moved forward as much as we CAN move forward.

    I don’t want to stray off topic so I won’t get into the other things you’ve listed.
    You seem angry. That’s your right.
    But there is a reson for the anger.

    As for whites not taking me seriously, who cares?
    This is not the topic at hand.
    Please respond accordingly or I’ll stop our conversation.


  168. @truthbetold

    sorry to disappoint, but i’m not at all angry. i just don’t see “we are forever unable to be our best selves in the face of your white oppression” as a position of power. too many have achieved too much under far worse circumstances.


  169. . . .conversation stopped.


  170. “whatever damage slavery & jim crow did to black people should be repaired by now or well along that road to repair.”

    A writer I read said that it takes longer to heal any wound than it does to inflict it.

    http://darkush.blogspot.com/2010/04/thats-how-we-roll.html

    He sets full citizneship for all Black Americans since about 1965~1970 or so.


  171. @shady_grady–“But as I’ve said before, what I see is whites who conveniently forget the history of race relations. Women who forget that those who stop the raping men…are also, usually, men. Straights who forget that homosexuality exists in nature. Christians who forget the history of aggression between the West and the Arab world.” Steven Barnes

    i’d like to add “black men who forget that black women live in & are affected by the same raced society as they are.”

    Barnes is married to one of my fav black woman authors, Tananarive Due. love her Immortals series. also have his Great Sky Woman in my to-read pile.

    appreciate the link.


  172. Sam,

    How about you not opine on things American? The answers I gave to WHY the black man seeks sexual relations with white woman HAVE BEEN RELUCTANTLY acknowledge all throughout this thread.

    1. Black man CAN SEX whomever HE PLEASES (Abagond, Ace, Sam, etc. all agreed on this one).

    2. Black man is at war with white man and such act is an “act of war” in black man’s liberation (truthbetold came around to this one).

    3. Black man hates black woman (Peanut, ashante, etc. have agreed to this one).

    Now, if you so desire, you can CLAIM that white man did ALL OF THIS to black man. But such a claim should be met with laughable derision.

    So again, is #1 above a moral stance? I’m curious to how you seem to believe so WHEN THE RESULTS are so destructive?


  173. Eco,

    The better question for you is what exactly have I said in regards to black man/white woman that you DON’T AGREE WITH?

    Be specific… I’ve made very straightforward assertions that can be rebutted face on.


  174. Aba,
    This topic has been thought provoking.
    Thank you.
    I’ll sign off for now.


  175. @thordaddy: Black man can have sex with anyone he wants to as long as that person wants to have sex with him. Black woman can have sex with anyone as long as that person wants to have sex with him. Even you can have sex with anyone as long as that person wants to have sex with you. See?

    If two humanbeings want to have sex, feel good, love each other or simply just enjoy with one part of their humanity, it is ok. There is nothing wrong. Simple as that. You seem to confuse things like sex with your very own moralist problems. I have no such problems. I like sex. It is that simple. I feel no guilt, nor should anyone else feel. There is no reason.

    If one chooses ones partner for the sake of the color of the skin, one way or another, I feel sorry. That is very narrow and thin view for the whole thing.


  176. @ Thordaddy

    “2. Black man is at war with white man and such act is an “act of war” in black man’s liberation (truthbetold came around to this one).”

    Maybe that was true back in the 1960s but these days it seems to mean the opposite if it means anything at all: that he is aligning himself WITH whites. Think Clarence Thomas, whose white wife probably made him seem “safe” to whites. While Obama’s black wife (and black pastor) seemed to have made him more threatening to whites.


  177. Sam,

    You are too dense for my discussions

    Abagond,

    Black man is at war with the white man in a struggle for black man’s liberation. This is a true now as it was 500 years ago. And his battle tactics haven’t changed and he certainly hasn’t dispensed with his most potent weapon. In fact, it is now taken as a given that black man can have sexual relations with whomever he pleases. This would account for your naivety about what truly motivates the black man on the daily.


  178. @thordaddy

    I find it quite telling that you needed to attach parameters to me in order to form a rebuttal. You needed to make assumptions as to who I am so that you could attack my status, because you could not rebuke my words.

    Your ‘radical sexual autonomy’ has no place in this, or perhaps any, thread. It is a nonsensical phrase, and debating foolish declarations is a waste of time.


  179. ashante

    i dont mind bm dating ww but just dont talk crap about bw while doing it.

    Sandra

    MOST black men are self hating jerks, sorry not a few but MOST. Let’s just face it. Abagond is no less damaged beyond repair since his wife divorced his ass.

    Jessica

    The irony of it all is that this is the MOST unstable pairing and has a divorce rate twice the rate of White men/White women (Which is nearing 50%).

    What is the MOST stable pairing with a divorce rate 44% LESS than White men/ White women??? Black Women and White Men.

    This is something black women should think of when considering marriage…the rate of divorce for blacks marrying each other is around 70%…

    What do you think of Ralph Richard Banks (Stand for Law Professor) book titled, “Is Marriage for White People”?

    janet

    peanut….you aint seen nothing yet. Unfortunately many “sista soulja” types are oblivious to the fact that a significant number of black men truly despise black women and want nothing to do with them, there are a number of them on this website. Black women are far too brainwashed and indoctrinated when it comes to so called “black love” mantra. Talk about being stuck in the matrix. lol

    ciara

    Black men are out! Nobody is dating black men anymore. Too many problems! Ask Heidi, she finally got tired of being verbally abused. I think we all know who REALLY has the attitude and is hard to deal with (and it aint black WOMEN).

    Yea sis i feel ya. Black men will talk about black women like a dog, but then they turn around and don’t understand why the white man treats them like they do. Traitors get dealt with and that is what the black man is showing himself to be, a traitor.

    AND THIS

    “Anti-Black Male Black Women…”

    that’s like a Unicorn right? Something that only exists in a fantasy world…

    LOLIRONY!!!


  180. Franklin

    You know…I was going to be active in this thread, but I’ve realized that it’s not worth it. I have a feeling that this thread will be yet another one filled with “strong” black women who lambast black men while failing at objectivity, and self-reflection. Black women who are quick to complain about opportunistic white racists (who will no doubt post in this thread under the guise of “caring”) negatively lumping all/most blacks (via heavy implications and not clarifying terms) together, while they do the exact same thing towards black men.

    @Franklin
    Yeah. Me too.

    @abagond

    I will try to get you the numbers on successful black men marrying out. I believe the break-even point is an income of $100,000: most married black men who make less than that marry black, most who make more do not.

    Among married black men with a personal income of more than $100,000, 12 percent have a white wife, 83 percent have a black wife, and 5 percent have a wife who is neither black nor white. Six percent of married black men who are high school dropouts have a white wife and 92 percent have black wives. Among black men with college degrees, 10 percent have a white wife and 85 percent have black wives. Among black male professional athletes, 72.8% are married to black women, 22.2% are married to white women, and 5% are married to women who are neither black nor white.

    From Toldson and Marks in Empower Magazine.

    No one was asking Black Women to apologize for bringing up concerning issues. That was a strawman, and (Peanut) the sarcasm about Mary Poppins was unnecessary. But even YOU two can (if you are honest) admit that there is a vocal (and deranged) segment of black women who always hijack these very important discussions, so they can peddle their lunacy and end up doing the very same thing they accuse black men of. Just switch the genders of the whites.

    Yeah Abagond, you may want to to have a policy about these heifers and their non sequitors.


  181. A black man CAN’T date a light skinned woman, a mixed woman or a white woman without being self hating just as white people can’t do certain things without being racist

    I take issue with this statement. Much for the same reasons that the others have done so, but additionally, I read that you think light-skinned and mixed women are not black women. Why have these women been ostracized from the black community, in your eyes?


  182. Sam,

    If you believe…

    1. Black man can have sexual relations with whomever he pleases.

    and…

    2. Black man seeking sexual relations with white woman is a sign of a self-hater under the nefarious influence of “white supremacy.”

    You are refuting yourself. Your beliefs don’t jive with each other. You have to restructure your beliefs so as to be taken seriously.

    Either, black man can have sexual relations with anyone he pleases EXCEPT white women (because that is self-hatred) or black man can have sexual relations with white woman because it “pleases” him (has NOTHING to do with self-hatred).


  183. In my experience, Abagond’s qualifiers are correct, namely that the majority of BM/WW relationships start through

    1. Military service
    2. University education
    3. Living in a part of the country/planet with few blacks, like New England

    I’ve experienced all three scenarios and have known a *lot* of black men who ended up dating interracially in those scenarios because *ahem, ahem* the available women in those areas were majority white. On top of that (although I’ll say again that this is a personal observation.of mine and not an actual data point), during my military service and life in 90+% white environments (including a couple of years spent living less than 2 hours away from 3 Native American reservations), any black woman who was prettier than Wanda from “In Living Color” and (here’s the kicker) *not outright “country”/”hood”* never had to ask herself what she’d be doing on a Saturday night. And when I say “Never”, I mean like Outkast-style “Never *ever*?”, “Never ever!” I’ve known black men who were so starved for black female attention that they sat in a restaurant and watched their date eat with a fork and her fingers (Hell, I once ate dinner with a woman who ordered a steak, then plunged her fork directly into the middle of the meat and took bites from it. My single friend, who was a FOB from the West Indies, got up from the table and went home without even saying goodbye+.) That same woman, who was raised in a group home and had never learned table manners, got married to a black man *and* had more than one kid within the bonds of wedlock. This took place in the “New South” in an area in which there were plenty of “poor white trash” women who were eagerly having their way with every black male base castoff who crossed their paths (and seeing as how this base had 200 single black women for over 1500 single black men, every weekend saw close to 1000 SBM running the streets and driving 2+ hours to the closest HBCU to meet black women.) The ratio in Europe was even worse. The month before I left Germany, the SBW: SBM ratio was 100:2000 (1:20, in simpler terms.) I knew hundreds of married-to-black-women black men who wouldn’t travel more than 1/2 your from their bases because their wives were afraid of white people. Or because the women were tired of being propositioned by white men. Or because the women had married “sexy” black men (read as tall, dark-skinned, muscular and more classy than Fred Sanford) and didn’t want to deal with “thirsty” black women who had burned their bridges with the available and “sexy” black men who were still single. Were there black men in these areas who turned up their noses at black women because white p*ssy was everywhere for the taking? Of course there were, you’d have to be stupid to think otherwise! That being said, were their plenty of available black men who weren’t attracted to white women, who didn’t go clubbing every weekend and turned down overtures from what white women who were attracted to them? Yes, and there were *lots* of them. I worked with a black female officer who planned a WOC conference for our base. When she asked the single women about their main complaints about being in Europe, the number one complaint was “These black men don’t give us time to breathe, never mind all of the white guys who are hitting on us!” IME, the dating scene for black men went like this: try to get with the hottest black chicks, get shot down, try to get with the next rung of black women, get shot down/have a few dates then watch her upgrade for a “better” black guy, hook up with white chick while drunk, try to get with “ugly” black woman, get shot down, start f*cling white chicks as if p*ssy had an expiration date. Once again, were there black men who *never even considered* the idea of dating or marrying black women in these areas? Yes, definitely yes. Did these men make up more than a fifth of all of the black men in these bases? When you consider the fact that a high majority of black people from non-military families have never lived in or even visited a different part of America prior to enlistment, assuming that the same black men who often fought tooth and nail to be transferred to a Southern base (so that they wouldn’t be surrounded by white people), would suddenly reject black women altogether because they’re surrounded by white women and living in an entirely foreign environment is ignorant.

    The same thing goes for black men in university. Many, if not most, black women attend university in a black-heavy environment (whether its a HBCU or a Southern/Eastern/Western based school). Many of the black men who attend university do so with an athletic scholarship, a set of circumstances that leads to hundreds of black men living in places like Montana and Wyoming (because a free education with a chance to be on the same court with Carmelo Anthony is *worth* a few years surrounded by woods and snow.) People, however, are people. Expecting a man to go fully celibate until he can meet a “mandatory” mate is as senseless as its inverse. Anyone who thinks that a healthy young man with the average sexual impulses of a healthy young man is going to ignore what’s on tap (eg. thirsty groupies) because they aren’t supposed to date out is ignorant (I knew a few black female university students when I lived in Europe. All of them were dating white men. Given the circumstances, seeing as how they outnumbered black men on their campuses and that the black men who were available to them were usually “lower-class” military men, I didn’t bat an eye. Me telling a Boston-bred black woman with a dual major in International Relations and Finance to date a black farmboy from Mississippi who joined the military so that he could see big buildings in “Miami”, that would be stupid. Really Stupid. Different dreams, different mindset, different childhoods, nothing in common besides the fact that they’re the same complection.) Back on topic, there are thousands of black men who travel to PWI schools every year because *that’s the best that they can do*. Schools in the nicer parts of the country have all of their open slots filled as soon as the fosters are up, but a black man with a 3.0+ GPA can always get squeezed into University of North Dakota or University of Maine (even if its as a quota student), whereas that same black man has competition against black women (and increasingly, foreign students) to get into HBCUs as well as other PWIs. As I’ve mentioned earlier on this site, I have relatives who have attended university (and are now working) in various white-heavy parts of the world for the same reason that people rob banks: that’s where the money is. I live in New York City and I’m attending university here, but I’d leave this city in a flash if the University of Idaho started handing out scholarships like candy (free school is always better than paying for it yourself, unless the school is literally called Peabo’s College and Waffles or Uncle Festus’ School Where You Can Learn to Talk and Think Good.) A degree is a degree (barring the Ivies), so there’s no difference in scholastic result between cramming yourself into Auburn or taking an easier ride and going to the Upper Peninsula campus at the University of Michigan. Unless the young man in question was reasonably popular in high school, there’s no difference in social status, either. For your average college-bound non-athletic black male, there’s no difference between being rejected or rendered second-rate by black women, or going to an almost-all white school and becoming a non-factor altogether. Both scenarios lead to the same result-dry, unrumpled sheets, a bottle of lotion and a torrented copy of “Lexington Steele’s Greatest Hits” on your computer (not *ahem* that I know about this from personal experience or anything ++). But, as with everything else in life, there are always going to be people who want to try “something different” (IOW, in the same way that all of the black female students in Europe had European BFs, those black male students in white schools will eventually attract at least 1 interested white woman. If the black man in question is/was decidedly unpopular with his own kind, he’s going to pedestalise his white paramour and demonise everyone else. Ha, the power of p*ssy.)

    tl;dr In my life, most of the black men/white women couples who I’ve known were formed by a combination of proximity and female-led interest, not by some imagined/projected black male monomania for non-black women. After 10+ years of living in white-majority areas of the planet, I’ve noticed (and actually been) among the black men who eagerly chase any available black woman who even approaches the realm of attractive (best and worst example tied into one knot: a friend of mine who dated a black woman until he got tired of her vulgarity. When they broke up, she literally ran after him for two blocks, yelling about how she was better than a “living cum-rag, not someone to just dump a load into and throw away.” By exposing over 300 people to that tirade, that black woman became persona non grata at that base because even non-“sensitive”/”wanna be white” black men don’t see the idea of having a woman yell obscenities at them in public to be an attractive attribute. Of course, the woman in question ignored the fact that she embarrassed herself and hundreds of other people when she would later talk about how “black men can’t deal with a strong black woman with opinions!”, as if loudly broadcasting the details of your sex life to strangers is supposed to be a *good thing*, never mind an attractor. And yes, I’ve been the guy to walk away from non-black women who tried to pull the “Lil’ Kim” act in order to earn cred.)


  184. @thordaddy

    Either, black man can have sexual relations with anyone he pleases EXCEPT white women (because that is self-hatred) or black man can have sexual relations with white woman because it “pleases” him (has NOTHING to do with self-hatred).

    I’ve said it before and I will say it again – there are NO absolutes.


  185. @ Thordaddy

    “Black man is at war with the white man in a struggle for black man’s liberation. This is a true now as it was 500 years ago. And his battle tactics haven’t changed and he certainly hasn’t dispensed with his most potent weapon. In fact, it is now taken as a given that black man can have sexual relations with whomever he pleases. This would account for your naivety about what truly motivates the black man on the daily.”

    You know, right, that that is not an argument. You are just repeating yourself and saying I am wrong.

    That would be like if I did this:

    @ Thordaddy

    “2. Black man is at war with white man and such act is an “act of war” in black man’s liberation (truthbetold came around to this one).”

    Black men are not at war with white men. You are so wrong!


  186. @ Thordaddy

    “Either, black man can have sexual relations with anyone he pleases EXCEPT white women (because that is self-hatred) or black man can have sexual relations with white woman because it “pleases” him (has NOTHING to do with self-hatred).”

    Call me naive, but I think black men are fully capable of doing both at the same time. It is not an either/or thing.


  187. Mr. Scientist,

    What “parameters” did I place around you?

    What do scientists call the belief in, “I can have sex with whomever I please?” Do they have a name for this phenomenon?

    I call it radical (not normal/not healthy/not justifiable) sexual (relating to all things orgasmically pleasureable) autonomy (a total
    freedom in act and thought).

    Those who believe that they can have sex with whomever they please ARE DESTRUCTIVE for the very self-evident reason that they believe that such belief is consequence-free. This is part of their “radicalism.” Even when the destruction of this mentality is RIGHT HERE for all to read, they still stand in denial.

    Black man NOR black woman is about to give up their radical sexual autonomy. So they’ll just fall comfortably back into the arms of “white supremacy.”

    You stuck on stunted, Mr. Scientist. Your discipline brokers no real passion in life. Your discipline is incredibly sterile. No virility to be found. We’re all robots in your world.


  188. on Mon 30 Jan 2012 at 20:41:48 Jay from Philly

    If you’re talking what kind of marriages have the highest success rate you’re talking white men and Black women. We’ve both been told from the beginning to put our mates on a pedestal. Black women appreciate when you’re chivalrous to them, it’s not something they just expect. They can throw down in the kitchen, when they take care of themselves they stay sexy into their sixties, and the contrast of olive skin on brown when you wrap your arms around them is such a turn on. Plus marriage to a Black women produces some beautiful tan-skinned children.

    When I popped the question to my then girlfriend all the white girls started oohing and ahhing and squealing over her engagement ring. The Black girls became withdrawn. Marriage is something they just never saw in their future. It’s pretty obvious that if a Black woman wants a husband who provides for her, a stable family, a loving home—what women have always wanted throughout history—she’s going to have to marry out. That’s why you see more white men with Black women than you did ten years ago, even five years ago, maybe even three years ago.


  189. ashante says:

    ” he said its something that men do: they talk down about a woman so no other man will try to get with her, the old I DONT WANT ANYONE ELSE TO HAVE YOU. so they make bw seem bad so the white man wont get it in his mind to try to hook up with one.”

    I’ve wondered if this was PART of what the bashing was all about, just trying to make Black women look bad to other races of men.

    I will say this though, I know some Black men are EMBARRASSED by Black women. I think because black women are the lowest on the socio-sexual totem pole and our beauty is maligned constantly. some black men don’t want to be associated with having the “lowest” women on the totem pole and they also don’t want to have be seen as having the “ugliest,” women that no other man wants. so they’re embarrassed by black women and they try to prove to white/non-black men that “hey, we don’t like them either…they’re not ours.” some black men are out to prove this to white men, so they bash black women and go out after ambiguous/light/white women, instead of realizing that if they wanted to elevate the status of Black women they should actually start valuing Black women more, not less.

    so, i know srgtwilliepete said in some of his videos that he was embarrassed that white men allegedly “don’t want” Black women because we wear weaves and we’re all over weight and stuff. He would make comments about how his white frat boy friends would say stuff like “dude, black girls aren’t hot!”

    and I guess for him, it was humiliating to have the woman that no other man wants.

    But all the while, he doesn’t realize that his white friends are brainwashed by beauty standards too and in fact, most white women in America are over weight, just as most Black women are and actually on a global scale, Black women are LESS likely to be over weight than white women because of under nutrition in predominately black countries whereas predominately white countries are more likely to be affluent with access to food.

    but some cowardly black men just want to keep up with Jones and bash black women because they’re embarrassed that we’re on the bottom of the totem pole.

    Its pathetic that some black men need to have white male validation to appreciate the beauty of their own race women.


  190. Sorry for being late to the party.

    First, the most laughable point:

    less concerned about money

    Mwuahahahaa… Yeah, right.

    Now, where were we? I’d say, if black men – or any other group of people, for any reason – are brainwashed/silly to believe these stereotypes, then so be it. If they can’t see the truth with their own eyes then they fully deserve to marry a golddigger who will chase them with a golf club (not that I don’t understand Elin Nordegren’s feelings in that incident).

    That being said, I support interracial relationships with all my heart. If I weren’t married I would be open to a men of a different race. However, nobody wants to be with someone just because their race so it would be a huge no-no. And if I’m with a black man, the moment he starts trash-talking about black women is the moment I’m leaving the relationship.


  191. What really cracks me up is that Seal and Heidi Klum have split, Kim Kardashian changes men more often than she changes underwear (which are probably black too, LOL), and Tiger Woods cheated on his white wife with many other white women. Yes, that’s just absolute proof of their innate superiority and ‘ability to please a man’! :lol:


  192. sam,

    It seems inconsistent that in a dating context you equate race to merely “skin color”, but in discussions regarding social issues such as education and economics, you indicate that race carries with it important factors such as history, culture, and heritage.

    Are all peoples exactly the same except for the outer paint job, or are they not?


  193. @abagond

    First time commenting on your great blog!

    I think the main issue within the BC is the level of paranoia and suspicion, which leads to many of us being quick to condemn, or try to ‘expose’ a self hating traitor.

    I’m a young Black British female and from my own personal observations and from talking to a lot of individuals the BW who object to this kind of union feel betrayed because they have to suffer so much oppression only to lose out to WW. Of course most recent stats contradict this view but nonetheless it persists in the community. Also my brother who is currently studying medicine has dated WW in the past, not because he was necessarily more attracted to them but because they bombarded him with compliments and dating opportunities where BW who he approached openly mocked and rejected him in favour of ‘flash cars’ and shopping sprees and fancy dates.

    I also think that maybe a lot of people forget that all of these racist principles and agenda have stemed from the white mans insecurity.

    I’m not the most learned individual but the insecurities held by white men namely:

    1) Although some regions of Africa have been colonized in the Past, the continent as a whole hasn’t been.

    2) Aids/disease, Poverty, Illiteracy etc have not effected the reproductivity/population growth of Black people (hence the legislation regarding birth control – which I have my own sinister theories on).

    3) On the whole if there weren’t so many young BM dead/incarcerated etc I doubt many current BW/WM relationships would occur, (I personally believe that BW are more loyal then any other women and WM know this and are unnerved by it).

    Hence the myths perpetuated, false data and supporting institutions.

    I am all for loving whom you choose and racial equality but theres no denying that historically WM have been swindlers, who if down on their luck decide to ‘explore’ only to capture and rape land and natives wherever they end up leaving a path of destruction in their wake. Even though as a community we are in dire straights we are surviving and persevering, we just need to stop getting distracted by arguing about things that don’t concern us (ie. each others private lives) and restore and maintain our communities which in my opinion are of greater concern then BM/WW.

    I’m just waiting for Richard Branson and co to find some planet in space upon which they can inhabit and overrun the natives:P

    (The opinons stated above are in no way meant to relect all individuals belonging to any one group just merely some alternate viewpoints)


  194. Peanut says,
    I will say this though, I know some Black men are EMBARRASSED by Black women. I think because black women are the lowest on the socio-sexual totem pole and our beauty is maligned constantly. some black men don’t want to be associated with having the “lowest” women on the totem pole and they also don’t want to have be seen as having the “ugliest,” women that no other man wants. so they’re embarrassed by black women and they try to prove to white/non-black men that “hey, we don’t like them either…they’re not ours.” some black men are out to prove this to white men, so they bash black women and go out after ambiguous/light/white women, instead of realizing that if they wanted to elevate the status of Black women they should actually start valuing Black women more, not less.

    so, i know srgtwilliepete said in some of his videos that he was embarrassed that white men allegedly “don’t want” Black women because we wear weaves and we’re all over weight and stuff. He would make comments about how his white frat boy friends would say stuff like “dude, black girls aren’t hot!”

    and I guess for him, it was humiliating to have the woman that no other man wants.

    But all the while, he doesn’t realize that his white friends are brainwashed by beauty standards too and in fact, most white women in America are over weight, just as most Black women are and actually on a global scale, Black women are LESS likely to be over weight than white women because of under nutrition in predominately black countries whereas predominately white countries are more likely to be affluent with access to food.

    but some cowardly black men just want to keep up with Jones and bash black women because they’re embarrassed that we’re on the bottom of the totem pole.

    Its pathetic that some black men need to have white male validation to appreciate the beauty of their own race women.

    laromana says,
    EXCELLENT comments, Peanut.

    ANTI-BW BM are the ONLY men on the planet who PUBLICLY TRASH their SAME RACE women and allow others to do the same.
    These USELESS/DISRESPECTFUL/ POS ANTI-BW BM don’t deserve the life BW CHOSE to give them in the first place.


  195. Also I agree with the points raised by peanut and ashante in this discussion


  196. from: http://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/01/27/black-men-white-women/#comment-110150

    In my life, most of the black men/white women couples who I’ve known were formed by a combination of proximity and female-led interest, not by some imagined/projected black male monomania for non-black women. After 10+ years of living in white-majority areas of the planet, I’ve noticed (and actually been) among the black men who eagerly chase any available black woman

    from: http://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/01/27/black-men-white-women/#comment-110150

    I think this is is the best answer to this whole debate. I suggest youread NaMu1977s post in its enitirety. It makes sense, none of the media brainwashing, “its because of slavery” bullsh!t.

    Also , I notice that in these these debates, I notice taht no one actually asks a black man who is in a relationship with awhite woman what his reasons are. Not that lower- or middle- class black men’s opinions count for much anywhere


  197. laromana says,
    EXCELLENT comments, Peanut.

    ANTI-BW BM are the ONLY men on the planet who PUBLICLY TRASH their SAME RACE women and allow others to do the same.
    These USELESS/DISRESPECTFUL/ POS ANTI-BW BM don’t deserve the life BW CHOSE to give them in the first place.

    I suggest you Google “Men’s Rights”, “Men going their own way” or “Pick up Artists” and you will see that misogyny is alive and well in other races of men.

    You can remove the “Anti-BW” from in front of the BM. You don’t that qualifier to express how you really feel.


  198. eco says,

    ““That is why there is an unwritten rule in Hollywood that you don’t put equally attractive Black women and white women in equal roles in Hollywood, because then God forbid people would see that beauty has no color and white women aren’t superior to Black women.”

    I sincerely doubt that.”

    It’s very true when Eartha Kitt, Dorothy Dandridge and Lena Horne came out Hollywood did not know what to do with them. They were too attractive to be used as maids or mammies, so that is why they were seldom seen in non-black movies. This is very true and you can read all about this in books, check out Donald Bogle. We discussed this in one of my classes, so you can doubt it, but it’s very true.


  199. @thordaddy:
    “Those who believe that they can have sex with whomever they please ARE DESTRUCTIVE for the very self-evident reason that they believe that such belief is consequence-free.”

    I think you should have some sex more often. I have sex every now and then with women and it feels good. It feels very good while doing it and it feels good after the act it self. Thus far, after some thirty plus years of sex, there has not been any bad consequenses from it. You should try it. Sex in a good thing. I have no idea why are so up tight with it, unless you do not get enough sex. Perhaps that is why you get so irritated by the whole idea of two people having such a good time.

    @randy:
    “It seems inconsistent that in a dating context you equate race to merely “skin color”, but in discussions regarding social issues such as education and economics, you indicate that race carries with it important factors such as history, culture, and heritage.

    Are all peoples exactly the same except for the outer paint job, or are they not?”

    From my personal view the color of skin is of no importance, not more than color of the hair etc. Unfortunately, in racist systems, color of skin carries more meanings. One day it won’t but we are not there yet.

    And to answer to your question: Yes. We are biologically the same. It is the cultures that separates us more than our skin color.


  200. Sam,

    Maybe you should have a few daughters and sons like me so some day you can teach that they may have sex with whomever they please and it will be consequence-free.

    You’re in a fantasy land like most “abstract liberals.”


  201. Abagond,

    Just so we are clear.

    Are you saying that the American black man IS NOT at war with the white man and his “white supremacy” in a struggle for his BLACK liberation?


  202. Wish I had something constructive to offer, but according the WNs on the web, this is the black person’s best hope at improving our stock. Bullshit I know, but perhaps this was the intended message/idea all along: blackness is undesirable and must go. So hurry up as soon as you’re successful and go fuck a woman. Then tell your halfbreed kids to do the same thing. We’ll get those nigger genes out of you yet. It worked in England and Portugal, heh, heh…..


  203. @thordaddy

    “The better question for you is what exactly have I said in regards to black man/white woman that you DON’T AGREE WITH?”

    I am not going to answer, because I do not want to encourage you to write more. At this point you should be able to notice that you are pretty much having a discussion with yourself. This means that either the other commenters are dumb and unable to understand you or that there is nothing to understand because you are rambling like a crazy homeless person. Either way, the discussion is pretty much over and you should consider switching to another blog/forum.
    Maybe that one?

    http://bronies.deviantart.com/blog/

    Those guys are into cartoon horses. How radically sexually autonomous is that?!

    @Bulanik

    “eco also believes it is SINCERELY DOUBTFUL that any black woman could be as beautiful as any white woman….”

    No, I sincerely doubt that in the conditions Peanut described, a Black woman would be seen as equally attractive as the white woman. I probably should have been more clear about that.

    You clearly didn’t understand the rest of my comment. I do not believe Black women should be sexualized any more. That wasn’t my point at all. It was basically a “what if” scenario, not a solution leading to a better future.

    @Peanut

    “It’s very true when Eartha Kitt, Dorothy Dandridge and Lena Horne came out Hollywood did not know what to do with them. They were too attractive to be used as maids or mammies, so that is why they were seldom seen in non-black movies. This is very true and you can read all about this in books, check out Donald Bogle. We discussed this in one of my classes, so you can doubt it, but it’s very true.”

    I definitely should have been more precise. I’m sorry for the misunderstanding. I meant to point out the fact that putting two attractive actresses, a white one and a black one, wouldn’t make people perceive them as equally beautiful. I think it’s safe too assume white people would have focused mainly on the white actress.
    Would Black women, who aren’t interested in white men, suddenly started seeing them in a different light if Brad Pitt did a movie with Denzel Washington? It’s not that simple.


  204. Demerera,

    Your statement refutes itself. It’s evidence of one’s “radical autonomy.”

    “There are no absolutes” IS an absolute statement.


  205. Eco,

    Seriously, you can’t comprehend the hilarity of an “abstract liberal” attempting to write with authority and command?


  206. @Bulanik

    I should have been clear about that “I sincerely doubt that” comment, the rest of it, the part about the sexualization, is understandable and you kinda missed my point.


  207. “I’m not the most learned individual but the insecurities held by white men namely:

    1) Although some regions of Africa have been colonized in the Past, the continent as a whole hasn’t been.

    2) Aids/disease, Poverty, Illiteracy etc have not effected the reproductivity/population growth of Black people (hence the legislation regarding birth control – which I have my own sinister theories on).

    3) On the whole if there weren’t so many young BM dead/incarcerated etc I doubt many current BW/WM relationships would occur, (I personally believe that BW are more loyal then any other women and WM know this and are unnerved by it).”

    Boy this site is filled with sista soulja’s pandering to insecure black men. LOL PATHETIC! Ya got anymore feel good quotes for tha brotha’s lol


  208. “watches eco wave confederate flag solemnly”

    Its quite telling that eco would be identified in this way by a white commenter no less, particularly when you see the response to this comment below:-

    “That is why there is an unwritten rule in Hollywood that you don’t put equally attractive Black women and white women in equal roles in Hollywood, because then God forbid people would see that beauty has no color and white women aren’t superior to Black women.”

    @eco I sincerely doubt that.

    This is the same individual who dismmisses overt racism on the sports field as ‘banter’, maintaining that it is not harmful yet, he seems to know how to utilise it in an implicit, yet detrimental manner when he chooses…..

    In terms of the topic at hand, of the WW I have encountered in IRR with BM, some of them have boasted about the fact that their parents/peers would not approve of their union. They have chosen to rebel and see the BM as the perfect weapon demonstrate to their defiance, thrusting this in the faces of those who they want to hurt. Clearly as a basis for relationship, it is doomed from the beginning. I can think of an example where a WW, (whom I had know as a child and who’s parents were not tolerant of such relationships) had 2 kids from different men BM. She was always bemoaning her situation and the men involved, running down their ‘black b*stard arses’ (her words) and saying how useless they were. As part of the conversation, another female brought up a different guy, who was a ‘friend’ of one of her men. The girl said, ‘is he Black?’, the woman said ‘yes’, and the WW said, ‘I dont f*ckin know which one he is, they all look alike to me!!!!’. Obviously, as she couldnt discern between who her baby father was and the next man opened her legs to that impregnated her – classy!!!

    Obviously that is not the same for ALL of these unions. I have a few friends who are in this type of relationship and I see something real and true. I have to say that, the majority of them have been in relationships with people of their own ‘race’ at one time or another too. I will be honest and admit that this gives them slightly more credibility than other examples of this kind to me but I KNOW there are exceptions to EVERY rule…


  209. @Thordaddy

    One reason black people don’t have to mate with one another is the one drop role, or basically racism, even a half black man/mulatto/whatever the proper term is nowadays, like Obama is just considered black.

    So I suppose if you look at it as a perspective of “war”, it would be one of attrition, having children who are half black are culturally considered black and thus percentagewise the population of black people would only have grown whereas the population of white people would have shrunk by that pairing.

    Though I’m not sure if that goes against your idea of sex with white women as an act of war against the white race….

    @Sam/Shady

    Mexicans are caucasians, Indians (from India) are caucasian, just being caucasian doesn’t make you white.

    Basically the white scale more or less; those who are racially and culturally the whitest, Irish have some black phenotypes in them and their language is based on african ways of speaking, not european.

    The Jews of course fall under the one drop rule, being 3-5% black basically cuts them out of it but they can still “barely” get in at near the bottom, I guess right above the Italians due to having more of a “white” culture.

    As for the Italians, well I think we all know about them.

    And your various finnish, swedish, russian sorts fall under the “asian” whites.

    This is hardly a scientific scale, as much “feeling” as anything else.

    I do have to say one thing that this blog has taught me about is the extreme differences in how PoC view “race” and how White People view race and who PoC view as White compared to who White People view as “white”.


  210. @thordaddy

    Your statement refutes itself. It’s evidence of one’s “radical autonomy.”

    “There are no absolutes” IS an absolute statement.

    It is a statement yes, but it is not absolute in its entirety…


  211. @eco

    No, I sincerely doubt that in the conditions Peanut described, a Black woman would be seen as equally attractive as the white woman. I probably should have been more clear about that.

    You clearly didn’t understand the rest of my comment. I do not believe Black women should be sexualized any more. That wasn’t my point at all. It was basically a “what if” scenario, not a solution leading to a better future.

    I too am guilty of not getting this particular comment – I concede that my response above may not be appropriate in this situation


  212. I think it’s 50% of Caribbean-descended black men in the UK who marry white women, I don’t think it’s 50% of all Black men. at least that’s why my friend from the Uk told me.

    If you read the Lonely Londoners by Sam Selvon, the main characters are all Caribbean Black men who reside in the UK(and maybe a couple from Africa) who refuse to date Black women. There is a lot more to the book, but I found it interesting to read about the lack of interest in Black from from those Caribbean (Jamaican, Trinidadian Black men)


  213. @Demerera

    “This is the same individual who dismmisses overt racism on the sports field as ‘banter’, maintaining that it is not harmful yet, he seems to know how to utilise it in an implicit, yet detrimental manner when he chooses….. ”

    Four straw men in one sentence. Is that a record?
    I haven’t dismissed overt racism on any sports field.
    I haven’t called it “banter”.
    I’ve never said it’s not harmful.
    I wasn’t intending to insult anyone with that “i sincerely doubt” comment.


  214. I mean it reminded me kind of what Malcolm X said about Black men who refused to date Black women.

    I try to be a reasonable person, I’m aware that men are men. I don’t think any one on here would expect Black men to be completely celibate or spurn the advances of an attractive woman of whatever race if he was single JUST BECAUSE of her race.

    my issue is, Black men who degrade Black women and put other women ABOVE Black women as if they’re better…I’m not talking about “a man being a man,” thing. There is a big difference between dating the women who are available to you and who you find attractive (and if that’s mostly white,asian, black whatever) and going out of your way to degrade Black women by not valuing them the same way you value other women, even if the Black woman is attractive and appealing. Big difference.

    There are SOME Black men who fall into the latter category and it’s more than just “A man being a man,” and getting with the women that are available to him (regardless of race). It’s not always just “men being men,” and going after p*ssy regardless of race.


  215. there are some real issue inside SOME of the Black men who exclusively pursue non-black women and I stand by that. It’s not just being a man…


  216. @bulanik

    Demerera, correct me if I am wrong, but aren’t 50% of black men in the UK in relationships with white women? Fifty per cent.

    I cant confirm or refute otherwise bulanik but I will say that even in my locality, of the IRR examples I see, the pairings are predominantly that of BM/WW

    I think US Census figures for MARRIAGE between black men and white women is about 8.5%, so, that means of the black men that do marry, at least 91% are married to non-white women.

    The figures in the UK are very different in comparison, aren’t they?

    Based on the statisics you have given, yes. The unions of BM/WW in modern day society, dont seem to result in marriage, – I wonder if this differs from the earlier pairings of BM/WW say in the 50’s and 60’s and is more a reflection of ‘todays society’ than anything else?

    Does this indicate that the attitude of perceiving black women as ‘repulsive’ is, regrettably, not isolated, nor the outgrowth of some particular black female lunatic fringe?

    I think that unfortunately, there are some truths in what abagond asserts above as the reasons why some BM might choose a WW but, I think it might be valuable to hear from some of the BM commenters on here who chose not to date IR. Those who hear the stereotypes and myths about BW that get bandied about and despite this, do not deviate from finding a BW for a partner.

    The guy on the Vanessa Feltz show is nothing new – One mixed race guy I knew worked with me in a predominantly WM environment and continually faced derision from his peers, mainly centering around his race and the fact that he only dated WW. After one particularly stressful morning, fending off their comments he sought me out to talk to and explained that ‘his dad had told him to steer clear, BW are too much hassle’ yet, as he was talking to me, I didnt sense any conviction at all – merely incomprehension and confusion as to why his white peers didnt revere him for holding WW in esteem by chosing to date them rather than BW. I asked him if he had ever dated a BW, and he said he had, once but, when he cheated on her, she went mad – this apparently confirmed what his dad said on one level, yet from further discussions with him I could tell this didnt rest easily with him…


  217. One of the main issues in any IR dating discussion is the belief some people have that men and women of the same race somehow “belong” to each other; that they are “natural” partners to each other. Intra-racial pairings are product of certain historical circumstances (well, race is a product of historical circumstances), but there are no “our” vs “your” women/men.


  218. Now, how many here ACTUALLY REJECT radical sexual autonomy???

    How about masturbaters? What’s your take on them? They are the epitome of narcissists!

    Johnson angered whites and blacks in his day but he lived how he wanted to anyway. That’s a man.

    Jack Johnson married and hooked up with mostly prostitutes. He doesn’t count.

    I don’t know about anyone here but I am glad these white behind kissers have taken themselves out of the gene pool!

    But then again, I haven’t heard you actually reject radical sexual autonomy.

    He’s too busy to entertain your lunacy.

    Reject the idea that your future son or daughter should reject radical sexual autonomy.

    Okay. Promote masturbation instead. That way you won’t have to worry about these things, such as who is hooking up with who. So what if they don’t have any kids, the purity of the white race will have been preserved!

    You may disagree, but that’s just because you know nothing about MY HOUSE.

    Try cleaning it first then we will talk! On second thought, forget it.

    Do you really think it’s immoral for black women to take offense at the sight of a black man and white woman.

    It depends on how good looking the man is! Otherwise who gives a sheet?

    I already know what you think. You’re a black liberationist.

    No he’s not, he’s Jamaican descent, big difference.

    I’m sure I’m not the only one on to your little sham.

    You are absolutely correct! I beg to differ on the value of his comments though, they are hilarious for the very reasons you give, they’re intentional. Something out of a satire.

    No one has rebutted you because arguing with you is a waste of time.

    I’ll say! It is especially hilarious that he doesn’t realize this. Like I said satirical.

    these women are considered the “dregs” by white culture, thereby creating a dynamic of black men accepting the “scraps” left by white men? Or perhaps an admixture of these concepts?

    A bit of both I would say. The broads I see are humongous, not ‘thick’. Many of them use walkers and canes due to the pressure on their joints of being like that! The black men are able to hoist them with their huge muscles!

    1. Black man CAN SEX whomever HE PLEASES (Abagond, Ace, Sam, etc. all agreed on this one).

    Does that include sexing you? Maybe you want a black man to go autonomously sexual(or whatever you call it), on you. This would be part and parcel with the rest of your ilk(white supremacists) who are obsessed with black mens’ sexuality.

    Sam,

    You are too dense for my discussions

    I disagree it is you who are dense. In fact, you are a typical narcissist, one armed bandit. If anyone is an auto-eroticist or anatomist or an astronaut, it is you sir. How do you explain a preponderance of bestiality among whites? They love pumping horses, cats and dogs! I am familiar with a case where a toothless man was fondling male horses genitals. What do you call that sort of behaviour in your vaunted philosophical soliloquies? Seriously, nothing you babble has to do with the topic at hand! Get a grip!


  219. On another occasion, in a discussion with friends, one man said that the black man and white woman was the sex-race apex, the true Romeo and Juliet of human sexuality :-)

    I honestly don’t understand what is meant by this. Two lovers who die in the end?

    I think it’s always best to stay away from individuals who will use you or your relationship as some kind of a statement. Find somebody else for that and leave me alone.

    As for black men being happy to be used for sex by white women: let’s not forget they still have their male privilege. Males are raised to see their sexuality as something positive. It’s often difficult to explain them that they are the ones degraded by the act. On the other hand, if you don’t feel degraded, is that the real degradation?

    If some people seek only sex and nothing more, and if they don’t mind throwing racist slurs and stereotypes at each other – heck, if they find it arousing – good for them. I have nothing about it.

    But to talk about IR relationships as inherently more sexual (in a “bad”, twisted, “unnatural” way), well, I have a problem with that.


  220. well, back to what i and other sista’s have been saying. you should marry who you feel comfortable with, marriage is hard EVERYDAY!! but i would like to say, i DO NOT feel ww/bm couples are genuine at all. YES I MEAN AT ALL!!! NOT A ONE!!! just look at heidi klum and seal they are a perfect example. all that renewing their vows every year and all their parties. but behind closed doors he cut a fool on her and let her REALLY KNOW how he felt about her white azz. HE DIDNT REALLY LIKE HER!!! and prob BECAUSE SHE WAS WHITE!!! she finally got the memo and stepped.


  221. @ Sandra

    you can call me a mammy if you want to. but i’m not going to stereotype black men and generalize them. I maintain that its only some black men who behave negatively when it comes to Black women specifically.

    I can’t help it if I am attracted to Black men and I enjoy being around positive Black men why would I discount the positive Black men in my life and generalize them by putting them in the same box with the self-hating black men?

    I’m not going to do that, I have a father who has provided for me, a God Father who sends me checks, two older brothers who look out for me, black cousins that I hang out with, Great Uncles and Grandfathers who have contributed to my life. I’m not going to overlook that. I’ve seen positive Black men so i would never generalize all Black men into one box.


  222. What I think this particular person was saying that these lovers were kept apart, and it was some kind of ‘special’ archetypal pairing… The ‘ideal, if you can call it that, and something which appealed to him.

    I see. And don’t forget the two families accept each other after the lovers are dead, so it’s a bonus! :P

    I honestly don’t see Romeo and Juliet as archetypal pairing, or black men and white women. Why not black women and white men? or any other “combination” if we’re talking about IR relationships.

    I mean, from what I gather, black men/white women pairings are along the most popular IR pairings, topped only by white men/Asian women ones. I honestly don’t see anything highly “unusual” about them. I guess IR couples are still seen as “controversial” by some people, and sadly, they can still get you in trouble at certain places, but they are very common among IR pairings. Hey, you can almost say they are “default” IR coupling (= the one that most people think when they think IR couples). What I’m saying is, there’s nothing “speshul snowflake” about them.

    Yes, of course black men have male privilege, and they certainly aren’t afraid of using it when it suits…

    Exactly. No amount of racism can erase sexism with certain men. That is usually shown towards the way they treat the women they know best – black women. And they keep their sexual privilege when they decide to be with a white woman. So even if she says some racist stuff, such as: “I want to bang his huge, N… $%#%^%”, he is more likely to think: “oh, this white slut” or something, thank to see himself degraded and objectified.

    Not all black men, of course. And not all who date white women. But some sure do.

    Sometimes I think black men give white woman a pass where they wouldn’t to white men… Or black women, for that matter.


  223. mira,
    “One of the main issues in any IR dating discussion is the belief some people have that men and women of the same race somehow “belong” to each other; that they are “natural” partners to each other. Intra-racial pairings are product of certain historical circumstances (well, race is a product of historical circumstances), but there are no “our” vs “your” women/men.”

    I think sometimes people misunderstand what is meant when some people say “your” or “our.” I don’t mind when black men refer to black women by saying “our women,” or when black women say “our men.” I don’t take that to mean, I own you like a slave master owns slaves. I take that to mean we come from the same culture, we have experiences that bond us together. That’s all that means to me. So i really don’t care if people use the terms. but i agree that thinking you control someone or own them is wrong.


  224. I don’t see what the big deal about this post is. I’ve had more then a few IR relationships in my own extended family and it really isn’t that big a deal. Some work out and some don’t.

    PS: Please don’t encourage Thordaddy – oy vay what an !@#


  225. bulanik,

    no i don’t think i was directing my comment to you.

    bulanik said:

    “And, occasionally, such women, could – and would – find individual black men who were only too happy to accommodate themselves to those fantasies.
    Once, a man told me that this kind of sexual-racial congress – a black man’s sexual possession of a white woman – when thrown in the face of an individual white man and white society in general – was his own, personal, selfish, and private ‘reparations’ for slavery days.”

    unfortunately this was what eldridge cleaver did and I remember srgtwilliepete made a video saying he sometimes slept with white women to “get back at slavery,” and he said he hoped her grandparents were rolling over in their grave or something like that…he had some issues back then. maybe he still does maybe he has changed, who knows.

    anyway eldridge cleaver you can read his book about how he did just what u talked about.


  226. Herneith,

    What’s funny about all your masturbatory-laden poems and thoughts is that if you look elsewhere you will see a similar ire from the white de facto homos in the MRA/alt-right sphere towards my condemnation of their SELF-Sexualizing ways.

    Now, if that word (self-sexualizer) is too incomprehensible for you just think about what you like to think about. Voilà.

    So remember, when the black man and black woman agree that they may have sexual relations with whomever they please THEY ARE INCLUDING THEMSELVES.

    They are asserting their “right” to self-sexualize.

    Now, if you took that fundamental definition of RADICAL SEXUAL AUTONOMY (what is more radically sexually “free” than Herneith’s addiction to the “jerk.”) AND MADE IT A PRINCIPLE STAND, what might happen?

    Self-annihilation?

    You go, thing. I’m not trying to save you. Not even in my power to do so UNLESS I can convince you that your “right” to self-sexualize is the path to self-annihilation.

    I won’t hold my breath. Corrupt minds fight vigorously for corrupt things.


  227. Peanut,

    I didn’t mean it in a way to say “people of the group I belong to”, and I didn’t mean it in a way of possession (in slave sense of the word). I meant on belief that people of the opposite gender who are of your race (or other group” ethnic, religious, etc.) are somehow “natural” partners for you. That the union with these people is default – and anything else (having a relationship outside the group) is something not quite right/highly controversial. In reality, races are cultural constructs so dating outside your race is as “unnatural” as dating someone with a different eye colour. In short, white women don’t “belong” to white men; white men aren’t their “natural” partners. At the end of the day, people are dating individuals. And if they don’t see it that way, if they see their partner as a race and not a person, then yes, we have a problem. But in no way I think people should see in-group pairings as inherently more “normal” or “natural” than dating outside one’s group.


  228. Now, if that word (self-sexualizer) is too incomprehensible for you just think about what you like to think about. Voilà.

    Get a grip dear! Drink some green tea, put your feet up and watch some television or read a book! If that doesn’t work, you can self sexualize or vaporize yourself take your pick!


  229. I haven’t had time to read all of the comments. So, I don’t know if anyone else mentioned this. If they did, I apologize.

    Do you all remember the short movie “A Girl Like Me”? If not:

    http://www.understandingrace.org/lived/video/index.html


  230. oh and also to go along with my other comment

    clearly some white men take pride in the fact that they THINK that ALL Black men prefer white women over Black women.

    Thomas Jefferson obviously took some pride in it and used it to demonstrate the superiority of white people:http://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/12/14/black-people-according-to-thomas-jefferson/

    Steve Sailer obviously takes pride in it and gets turned on thinking about it, which is why he’s so focused on Black men in the first place.

    there are some white men who get off on the fact that they imagine ALL Black men want white women and when we’ve got SOME Black men bashing Black women and running after non-black women all they’re doing is furthering their white supremacist ideology.

    another sad thing.


  231. Herneith,

    You can’t believe that a thorDaddy of four, with all these radical autonomists swirling about, has got much time to kick his feet up, can you?


  232. @ Mira

    I gotcha


  233. Honestly I see Black guys my age and older with lighter, White, Latina and Asian women ALL THE BLASTED time! Sometimes it makes me think that Black men don’t love Black women anymore. I see a lot of Black guys with White and Latina girls at my high school,
    Forest and it grieves me that they don’t pay attention to any Black girls. I know a lot of us Black girls are loud, ghetto, nasty and annoying but not all of us are like that. I know I am NOT like that at all! Not in the least bit althugh I am opinionated. All those nasty Black girls who are ghetto, obese and gross make me and other decent Black girls look bad.
    Andthe thing about it, why all are these Black men degrading the women in their race? Aren’t their mothers, sisters, aunts, grandmothers etc Black? Yup, they are! Yet they degrade us in their music videos and online because even the believe the sterotypes that the media and society puts out about Black women. And they should give us a chance too afterall, they are part of this race too, but sadly they have been lied to by the media.
    I love seeing Michelle and Barack Obama together because they are beautiful Black family that is settled down and married and I want that for my future children. I want to find a Black man that I can settle down with and marry and have children with and live in nice house when I grow up.
    And I thank God for Black men like Menelik Charles who thinks Black women are beautiful like Abagond. That is what Black men are suppose to think of their women:beautiful, strong, independent, and most of all, the MOST BEAUTFUL AND DESIRABLE WOMEN IN THE WORLD!. THAT IS WHAT OTHER RACES OF MEN THINK OF THEIR WOMEN! THEY DON’T GO AROUND DEGRADING THEIR WOMEN THE WAY BLACK MEN DEGRADE BLACK WOMEN!
    Plus since supposedly 70% of Black women are supposedly single including mother, maybe Black women’s population would decrease and Black would die off in America. And eveyone would wonder wherre all the Blacks went. Then it would be realized that Black men breeded out the Black race in America. I wouldn’t be surprised if that happened. Maybe it wouldn’t happen in my lifetime but maybe in the next.
    No, I am NOTtrying to sound desperate but I am trying to say acurate. Yes, I am upset over how ALOT OF BLACk MEN completely abandon us Black women.


  234. If this attraction between Black men and White women is mainly to do with the stereotypes in society about each group, I would think White women would only be interested in temporary relationships with Black men and not marriage. Wouldn’t the average White woman be frightened away from marriage by the negative stereotypes about Black men, or is the average White woman who is interested Black men supposed to be a little more enlightened?

    I think a White woman who has married a Black man HAS to have more knowledge than the average White woman… I do not think it is a good idea to go into a into an interracial marriage with the White partner having no clue about the realities of race in society and how it affects people of colour.

    leigh204

    It also happens in the Asian community, or at least where I come from, that WW are considered easy. I’m not saying this is true, but this is from what I’ve heard others say about WW.

    I live in East Asia and the same applies here. White women are seen as much more open and also promiscuous compared to the local women. The actual behaviour of each group of women is completely ignored in favour of this stereotypical fantasy.

    In the UK, the most common interracial pairings I see are between Black men and White women. Another thing I have also noticed is that, more often than not, the White women the Black men choose are pale, blonde and blue-eyed.

    I knew a young man who was half Black and half White and he made it very clear he hated himself for being half Black. He exclusively dated White women. He grew up only with his White mother AND in an area where the far majority of people are White, so I guess it is no surprise that it was ingrained in him that White is beautiful.


  235. Jack Johnson also beat up one of his wives…that’s a man to you?


  236. my last comment was for SW6


  237. 50 years ago, a black man couldn’t so much as whistle at a white woman without risking his life. In 2012, anyone and everyone can join the dogpiling on black women – and if the black men aren’t actively leading the violence, they damn sure aren’t defending her or trying to dig her out. When the “statistics” of 50% of black women having herpes came out – I was not shocked to see black men being the fastest to repost that to everyone they could. Do you think white men would have had the same reaction? Would we see white comedians joking and poking fun of STD-ridden white women, like D. L. Hughley so eagerly joked about “nappy headed hos?”

    White men have been so zealously protective of their women that it has led them to kill. Contrast that with the widespread lack of respect that black men have for black women today. When have we EVER been protected like that? When has there EVER been a knee-jerk response of black men collectively to publicly and loudly defend us when assaults on our dignity and humanity are made?

    There is something very, very wrong with this imbalance, and you don’t have to be someone who hates people who are in relationships with someone of a different race to realize this.

    I am a young black woman in her mid-twenties who grew up in upper-middle-class suburbs – and yet, despite almost exclusively having romantic and sexual relationships with white men for the majority of my life, I started out in elementary school being attracted to black males. They were not attracted to me, and the subsequent years of sexual abuse – all at the hands of black males, some familiar, some not – and the continual psychological terrorism of street harassment to this day – again, ONLY at the hands of black males – has made me lose any and all interest. I don’t think all black men are bad – I know they are not. I have a brother who is amazing. I have a father (married to my mother) who is the same. I know kindness toward black women is possible in the hearts of black men. But due to past trauma, I’m not sure I am willing to go through the hordes of black men who – despite all reason to do so – cannot, will not, and refuse to have my best interests at heart to find the guy who can and will.

    I know this is about black men and white women, but I needed to say that to get to the relevant point. In an ideal world free of racism, self-hatred, and denial, we could all sit around and shrug our shoulders and act like the decisions we make and the “preferences” that we have are 100% made in a vacuum, undisturbed by known and unknown, conscious and sub-conscious psychological factors. But as I stated – I have my preference for a reason. I have thought about it and I understand how it came about. I am not going to lie to myself and to others and say that it’s “just a preference”. I’m not even going to argue that it’s right – I don’t feel like it is, and I would like to be able to be in a relationship with a black man without fear that he will not see me as a human being, or will defend me if I am attacked. However, at this point I cannot reasonably do that, and it would be a waste of both of our time – and unfair to him – if I tried to engage in a relationship with someone who I would not be able to ever feel comfortable with. I am honest about these reasons. I do not think many black men in relationships with white women are honest about their reasons, however. It is definitely possible that two people can fall in love and be compatible, but just happen to be of different races. I also understand that the vast majority of black men marry black women… but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they do not agree on some level with the negative sentiments espoused by the black-woman hating black men who date interracially. If that were not the case, then the street harassment and domestic violence rates between black men and women would not be so extraordinarily high. I’m pretty sure the men who have harassed me in public do not all date non-black women.

    But I think the discrepancy between the percent of black men who marry a non-black woman and black women who marry a non-black man can and does say something. The reasons of military service, higher learning and limited access to black women for this discrepancy is not something that I really see evidence for in society at large. Intellectually, they are sound reasons why black men would be with non-black women; however, the overwhelmingly majority of BM/non-BW couplings I see and know of are definitely not the result of being in the armed service or living overseas or in predominately-white areas for higher education. I live in a mixed income area and the BM/non-BW pairings are usually lower-class black men with trashy seeming white women – and this is NOT a military town, nor college town, yet I feel some days I see more BM/non-BW pairings than BM/BW. If it is not that type of coupling, then it is the clean-cut, well-dressed black man with his white trophy wife. In fact, one time I was walking toward a mall entrance and saw a man of this type with his back to me – and I IMMEDIATELY thought “he’s probably with a white woman.” Lo and behold, as I got closer, I saw that he was actually taking a picture of his white wife and their infant child. I agree mostly with Peanut – black women, physically speaking, have long been maligned as the lowest on the attractiveness totem pole, and instead of defending us and praising us in mass against the constant onslaught in the media of eurocentrist beauty ideals, I think many black men internalize the message and take the easy way out if they can – joining the dogpile to try to earn points with the white people in power and choosing to date and marry white women because it’s “easier.” It’s easier to be with someone who is praised and envied 24/7 in your society than it is to be with someone blamed for most of its ills. It’s easier when you don’t have to see people who look like your partner constantly demonized, objectified, and harshly criticized for anything from actions to looks to what they are doing to what they’re not doing enough of. It’s easier when you can come home at the end of the day to and sit at the dinner table with someone who didn’t have to face the same trials as you out in the world by living as a minority. You don’t have to shoulder their burdens as well as your own.

    It’s easier all right… but not in the ways they are claiming it is (i.e. “less attitude/more doting/blah blah blah”). These reasons have never, ever made sense to me, as black women have displayed unparalleled support and devotion to black men – even when they have thrown it in our faces and peed all over that devotion. As far as being “easier to bed” – how can white men think of us as Jezebels and black men blame us for being too reserved and uptight in bed? Boy, these b.s. reasons to hate black women sure do get confusing at times. I think the BM/WW pairings who are truly, 100% unaffected by racist influences (on both ends i.e. two people just happen to meet and fall in love, are completely compatible on a soul-mate like level and just incidentally happen to be of different races) is likely much rarer than anyone would admit. The trouble is that if you ask many pairings outright, they’d give p.c. answers indicating that race had nothing to do with their partnership. I think again, the discrepancy in the interracial BM vs BW relationships prove that something else is a factor.


  238. @ Suzy,

    I took wish more black men would defend and protect Black women. I don’t have the science behind this, but I think its probably very natural for a woman to crave protection from her mate, when Black women don’t get that I think it causes a lot to become frustrated and distrustful. historically black men haven’t always been able to protect black women and that’s not their fault, but I wish today more Black men would address some of the disrespect coming at black women.

    a good example would be when the satoshi kanazawa article came out, I remember several Black men defended Black women from that and I thought that was very nice.


  239. and i gotta say something about the light skinned thing. Yeah you can argue that light-skinned/mixed race Black women are still Black, fine. But I think that some Black men do go for lighter Black women for self-hate too let’s just admit that. You can’t keep saying “well they’re still black, so it doesn’t matter,” when we know that light-skinned ESPECIALLY biracial-Black women get special treatment in the black community and society at large.

    there was just a study that showed that lighter skinned bw got more lenient prison sentences than dark skinned bw. How about when we look in the media and we see Biracial/light Black women over represented…but we NEVER get to see a dark skinned black woman unless she’s playing mammy.

    come on there is some self hate there too, especially with hair. I’ve heard Black men say myself they want a girl with “long,good hair,” or a red bone. we see these things, it bothers me when people won’t acknowledge this.

    yes you can say biracial/black women are still Black and yes they deal with racism, but there’s some privilege there too when it comes to certain things.

    nowadays though it seems light/biracial black women really aren’t desirable enough for some black men either though.

    but, it is what it is and this is coming from someone who many would say is lighter herself, so please don’t tell me i’m hating, i’m not. i’m just calling it like i see it.


  240. @ adeen

    high school is hard, sorry you’re going through that. I think within the last 5 years or so, some black men have amped up their self-hate against Black women.


  241. “Mexicans are caucasians, Indians (from India) are caucasian, just being caucasian doesn’t make you white.”

    Though typical Mexicans (to me) are often more indigenous than European in phenotype, they are generally racially classified as ‘Caucasian’ rather than ‘Mestizo’ on this side of the border, so I do get what you’re saying. Other than that, and the notion that so-called ‘Blacks’ can be any shade or phenotype under the sun according to the One Drop rule, whites, to my mind, have to at least have a pale complexion in order to qualify as ‘white’. Europeans with olive, tan and outright brown complexions are not truly white, but can only be honorary ‘whites'; and others classified as ‘Caucasian’, such as many Middle Easterners and nearly all the peoples of the Indian subcontinent, are not generally viewed as white in the US in any way, shape or form.

    Ha! My own ‘Black’ mother was lighter in overall coloring (e.g., pale skin, green eyes and ash blonde hair) than the light tan skinned, dark-eyed, dark-haired Kim Kardashian, so I personally have a hard time viewing Kim (who is only a tad bit lighter than me) as being ‘white’ . . . .


  242. “yes you can say biracial/black women are still Black and yes they deal with racism, but there’s some privilege there too when it comes to certain things.”

    Yes, as a light-skinned racially-ambiguous Black woman of mixed heritage, I’ve dealt with racism, but I’ve also been able to bypass some of the more overt racism experienced by my more noticeably sub-Saharan African descended peers.

    I personally have experienced non-Blacks (meaning other PoC, not just whites) making some of the most racist remarks imaginable in my presence because they viewed me as being non-Black. I’ve also had darker skinned Black men confide in me their distain for dark skin because they thought I, as a light skinned BW, would be greatly appreciative of such self-hatred . . . .

    It ain’t all it’s cracked up to be.


  243. “When the “statistics” of 50% of black women having herpes came out”

    Which from the very beginning was bull s h i t.


  244. @ Parfun Bleu,

    I have seen that both ways as well. I have noticed that many Black men who talk to two Black women will often talk to the obviously lighter skinned one as if he’s interested in her, views her as intelligent he tries to inquiry about her racial background (and often in a very offensive manner) and usually seems disinterested in the darker skinned woman. He seems to think that openly disrespecting the dark skinned one in front of the lighter skinned one will make the lighter skinned one impressed with him or flattered.

    Lighter skinned women (of any ethnicity, but especially of African descent) receive a certain kind of skin privilege; to racists they aren’t “dark” enough to earn their ire, but they aren’t “white” enough to earn their respect. That is probably why so many of them think of throwing their lack of “blackness” in their face whenever they think it’s appropriate, even if it’s hurtful to her (She very well might have a dark skinned mother, after all). Many racists (and self-hating people of color) truly view it as a compliment to tell women of color how they “must be part Indian, can’t be all black, she’s too pretty”.

    Black women (even with dark skin) who have features that aren’t considered “black” (even though black women do not all have the “typical features” because black people have a lot of variation, just like everyone else) deal with the same thing. Heck, a Black woman who talks “white enough” can get those same backhanded compliments that mess with her self-esteem just as much as if she were insulted to her face for being Black.

    It’s like, all of a sudden your “better” and therefore your supposed to “get” those anti-Black women statements and agree with them.


  245. Parfum Bleu,

    Sorry about mispelling your name like that. I mean no disrespect.

    Also, yeah, typical, it was a crock of bull, just like how “75% of black women have children out of wedlock”. Same lies as the “welfare queen”. Black women are on the bottom of the totem pole and therefore have little to no support, and often they are punished for fighting back by being called “angry” and “unstable”.


  246. “I enjoy being around positive Black men why would I discount the positive Black men in my life and generalize them by putting them in the same box with the self-hating black men?

    I’m not going to do that, I have a father who has provided for me, a God Father who sends me checks, two older brothers who look out for me, black cousins that I hang out with, Great Uncles and Grandfathers who have contributed to my life. I’m not going to overlook that. I’ve seen positive Black men so i would never generalize all Black men into one box.”

    I myself am open to dating men of all races. I most say though that when I come across the type of Black man whom you’ve just described, there is at least a temporary sense of “all is right with the world” which I’ve never experienced when dating non-Black men.

    IDK. Maybe it has to do with the pervasiveness of anti-Black hatred in the world, and, because of this, it might not be easy to put one’s trust in non-Blacks in such a situation.


  247. does any one notice how they never show black people making love in the media? I don’t mean angry, degrading sex, I mean genuine love making, they don’t show that…but have no issues showing white people doing that. I think that speaks to the overall discomfort that the white media has with Black sexuality. It’s only acceptable for Black men and Black women to be sexual when its either in a degrading way or when it benefits whites.

    you look at slavery and blacks were reduced to having sex only to bring children in to increase the wealth of the white community. then black men are reduced to only being able to be sexual when it gets a white man off to watch him sleep with his white wife…

    and black women can only be seen as sexual when she’s a light skinned woman being degraded by a racist white man like in monster’s ball,

    people have never respect black people’s sexual/erotic relationships…


  248. Regarding the video with the English House Negro on the Vanessa Feltz show with the Black woman hatred, it did seem to me even though Feltz is in a relationship with a Black man that she was enjoying his behaviour and getting a kick out of it, but I’m not surprised at the sentiments he expressed in that video, England is House Negro Central we’ve got a full on infestation of them out here. These Negroes will happily and enthusiastically bury you alive to curry their masters favour. You see this in the schools and the Workplaces.

    When I was a kid when a White boy or an Indian boy had beef with me they would deploy their House Negroes against me and they would fight me hard and it’s the same in the workplace. If a White person wants to get at you one of their favourite methods is to do it through their House Negroes who will gladly do it to advance in the company at your expense. The bonus with using a proxy House Negro to get at you is they can always claim not to be racist because they are “friends” with their tool “no it’s nothing to do with race it’s him”.


  249. @thordaddy:

    “Sam,

    Maybe you should have a few daughters and sons like me so some day you can teach that they may have sex with whomever they please and it will be consequence-free.

    You’re in a fantasy land like most “abstract liberals.””

    Well, I am a father and I do have children and yes, I have teached them about sex, safe sex particulary, and also told them what it is about, how babies come to this world, about the emotional aspects of sex, about VDs, and also how they don’t have to do it if they don’t want to, and if they do it, how to do it safely and what to expect etc.

    I am very glad I did since none of them have had any teen pregnancies, diseases etc. and are now grown ups living their happy lives. I have no idea what kind of mumbo jumbo you teach to your children but judging from your comments here, your kids need professional help in that regard and pretty fast. Otherwise they might end up being as troubled as you.

    For me life and world are not abstractions. I live the way I want. For you it might be an intellectual exercise but for me it is the Life. I bet I have seen this world way more than you, I bet I have been in places where you never will be, met people you would never ever dare to meet nor want to meet, from the big business people and polticians to the most down and out outcasts. I have eaten foods you would never dare to eat, slept in places you would never ever dare to go, and I have met some of the best people and some of the worst too.

    I have a friend who is a murderer but I also have a friend who is a priest. I have a friend who is a nurse and I have a friend who is a professional soldier. I have a friend who is a police officer but I also have a friend who is a professional criminal. I have a friend who mingles with Bill Gates and his crowd but I also have a friend who lives out on a street. I have a friends of all colors and ethnic backrounds, from Kosovo to Togo, from Sweden to Vietnam. I have muslim friends, religious christian friends, atheist friends etc.

    All these things and friendships make my life worth of living. All of them have shown to me that in order to live, really live, we must be Free. And namely, Free inside our heads.

    For you Freedom is an abstraction because you are a prisoner. You can not understand it because you are affraid of it. You look at this world behind your own bars and think that you are outside, when in reality you are well locked up.


  250. Boy this site is filled with sista soulja’s pandering to insecure black men. LOL PATHETIC! Ya got anymore feel good quotes for tha brotha’s lol

    @janet

    Actually on the contrary, I was trying to point out the significance of Africa and the BW. I’m sorry if I wasn’t successfully in doing so but I am throughly convinced that the destruction and elimination of BW and the African continent are the end goal. The amount negative stigma, vitriol, propaganda aimed at the continent and BW is revolting to say the least. Although I agree people can marry who they chooose, It all comes down to external forces trying to destroy the BC. You don’t have to agree with me but as a Young BW from London I can only speak from personal experience and the forces at work that have tried and failed to split up my family.


  251. @V4:
    “Mexicans are caucasians, Indians (from India) are caucasian, just being caucasian doesn’t make you white.”

    You believe that? Some old geezer back in 1800’s came up with a racial fantasy of caucasian race and you still buy that?

    Mexicans are mexicans. People of India are indians, well, actually they belong to several ethnic groups over there.

    I think it was some other thread over here where the history of that ridicilous racial fantasy term was handled. It is used mainly in USA now a days and that tells a lot about the state USA is in.

    In reality the caucasians are armenians, tsetshens, ossetians, georgians, azeris, abhasians and some others. You know, the people who live around the Caucasus region. Mexicans do not live over there. They live in Mexico and its surrounding areas.


  252. @herneith: :D


  253. @ MaMu

    Excellent comment! Thank you.


  254. Sam,

    Lol…

    So you had consequence-free sexual relations and you have grown kids?

    Amazing… How is that done?

    I also didn’t read the part where you taught them about your principle of having sexual relations with whomever you please because it was consequence-free?

    Sam… Maybe because you are foreign to America, and thus, severely limited in your real knowledge about the American white/black dynamic that you don’t understand what I’m saying? Perhaps you can quote the “mumbo jumbo” that alludes you and I can clarify? Funny how not a single person has done this?

    You basically have three options:

    1. The black collective’s dysfunction is caused by “white supremacy.”

    2. The black collective’s dysfunction is caused by radical sexual autonomy which is caused by “white supremacy.”

    3. The black collective’s dysfunction is caused by a radical sexual autonomy embraced by both black man and black woman.

    Of course, I choose the third option because it gives the black collective FULL AUTONOMY and IT IS THE REAL ROOT CAUSE OF THE BM/BW DYSFUNCTION.

    But the black collective chooses options one and/or two, so it’s a war of liberation with those who want to be slaves and have all other ls slave with them.


  255. ^^^ “have all [others] slave with them.”


  256. @ Blanc2

    “Agabond, I’d be interested to know if you have any insights with respect to the phenomenon one often sees, especially around my home town, of black men with obese white women. Is it as simple as a cultural preference for thick women, or is it more about what Chris Rock suggests in his stand-up, that these women are considered the “dregs” by white culture, thereby creating a dynamic of black men accepting the “scraps” left by white men? Or perhaps an admixture of these concepts?”

    I think it is mostly because, in general, black men and white men in America look at female body shape differently.


  257. Peanut,

    does any one notice how they never show black people making love in the media? I don’t mean angry, degrading sex, I mean genuine love making, they don’t show that…but have no issues showing white people doing that. I think that speaks to the overall discomfort that the white media has with Black sexuality. It’s only acceptable for Black men and Black women to be sexual when its either in a degrading way or when it benefits whites.

    Yes! I’ve noticed that. Black people are never shown making love, unless it’s in a black produced movie (and even that is not a guarantee). Blacks are shown being sexual in a “dirty” way (not that I think sexuality is dirty, but you know what I mean), but never in a committed, let’s make love kind of way.

    And now a completely different thing when it comes to sexuality in movies…

    As for interracial couples – and I bet this is what black men and white women protest about – you get to see some love making, UNLESS it’s black man and a white woman. This IR pairing is very common, yet it’s rarely shown. It’s because studio executives believe white male audience is ok with seeing white men with all races of women (white, black, Asian), but they don’t want to see a white woman with a non-white man (especially black).

    Abagond,

    I think it is mostly because, in general, black men and white men in America look at female body shape differently.

    Huh? So, you think “blacks like fat (white) women” stereotype is true?


  258. @ thordaddy

    “Abagond,

    Just so we are clear.

    Are you saying that the American black man IS NOT at war with the white man and his “white supremacy” in a struggle for his BLACK liberation?”

    I think that most black men are against white supremacy, but their being with white women probably comes more from being brainwashed by said supremacy, if anything, than because they oppose it.

    Most men, when seeking to get laid or even married, are not concerned with making a political statement. That is not how it goes. After you pass puberty you will discover that for yourself.


  259. Sam,

    I stand corrected. You didn’t state that you had consequence-free sexual relations, rather, you stated that you had had no bad consequences from your sexual relations.

    Which is to say that you DIDN’T LIVE BY THE PRINCIPLE of “I may have sex with whomever I please.” On the contrary, thirty years of sexual relations with no bad consequences means you must have been quite careful and conservative.


  260. Abagond,

    So in your world, grown black men who have passed puberty have sexual relations with white women because they have been “brainwashed” by “white supremacy” with “supremacy” obviously equally degeneracy in your “abstract liberal” world?

    I mean, this is a degenerate thing they are doing, no? A grown black man, passed puberty, seeking sexual relations with a white woman is doing a degenerate thing? Right?

    This is what you are saying?

    So how can you also say that Abagond can have sexual relations with whomever he pleases?

    Abagond is cool with degenerate relationships?


  261. Abagond,

    I think that most black men are against white supremacy, but their being with white women probably comes more from being brainwashed by said supremacy, if anything, than because they oppose it.

    Most men, when seeking to get laid or even married, are not concerned with making a political statement. That is not how it goes. After you pass puberty you will discover that for yourself.

    The thing is, ideology and collective level are not the same as personal level and they should never be confused. Just like having black friends or black spouse and children don’t automatically make a white person non-racist, having a white partner or a spouse doesn’t make a black person a race traitor.

    It’s very harmful to assume these things. It is true some people who date outside their race are full of issues, such a being brainwashed, or racist, or whatever, but it is possible to have your own beliefs and moral code and attitude and still choose a partner from whatever group you like.

    It’s harmful, in my opinion, to mix higher level (beliefs and ideology) with personal level (who you marry). At the end of the day, who you procreate with and who you fall in love should be about your personal happiness and not your group’s beliefs.

    This is something I firmly believe in.


  262. @ Thordaddy & Mira:

    I never said that black men go with white women ALWAYS or ONLY because they are brainwashed.

    In the comment just now I said:

    “their being with white women probably comes more from being brainwashed by said supremacy, if anything, than because they oppose it.”

    Notice the “more … than” and “if anything”. I am not saying ALL such matches are cases of brainwashing – thus “if anything” – but that it is more likely brainwashing than some kind of racial revenge – thus the “more … than”.


  263. And where did I write that you believe ALL black men do it? Heck, where did I even mentioned it? I said some men are brainwashed to believe stereotypes – so if they end up with a white bi.ch or a gold digger, well, it’s their fault they assumed “white women aren’t after money/are easier to get along with”. Whoever believes stereotypes instead of their own eyes and brain deserves whatever happens to them.

    But the idea of brainwashed black men is something you brought up, not me.

    In my last comment, I wasn’t even talking about black men exclusively. This is the general attitude I have towards out-group relationship: loyalty to your group has nothing to do with who you sleep with or who you decide to procreate with. In my opinion, these things should never be confused for each other.


  264. Mira,

    Yur wrong,
    yur looking short
    black man needs to look long
    and hard
    at why he don’t get along
    with his black woman
    and why he sings that song
    like Abagond
    says I’m here, my black queen
    now I’m gone,
    got me a white one
    we getting it on
    I can have sex with whomever I please
    it’s about my happiness
    it’s about me
    fugg the legacy
    fugg the baby seats
    this my liberation
    this my fantasy
    white bitch throw me out
    blame sheeet on “white supremacy”
    come back home
    baby momma seeking her independency
    she wanna be happy
    gotta get away from this fake-ass G
    con man with a capital C
    it about me
    I wanna be happy
    start me a legacy
    with white Supremacy
    the capitalized sheeeet
    not that lower case degeneracy
    favorite boogeyman
    of the black man still in infancy…


  265. As for brainwashing, if you want to go there: I think racism is what made a natural, normal thing sick. We should ask ourselves why (heterosexual) men find women attractive. There’s nothing wrong about. It’s racism that makes it so complicated and it’s racism that implies something is “unnatural” to find a woman of another race attractive. It’s racism that implies that women of certain races are more attractive than women of other races, as if all members of one race are the same.

    But I still do think men are men and women are women and they are attracted to each other. No huge mystery here. So black men/white women thing isn’t about “why black men find white women attractive”. Duh. They are heterosexual men, that’s why. No huge philosophy here. The main problem is why they (and men of other races) think* some other women (namely, black ones) aren’t as attractive.

    * Not all of them obviously.


  266. I worded this sloppily, so let me try again:

    The issue isn’t why black (or any other race) men find white women attractive. Men finding women attractive shouldn’t be surprising. The issue is why they – some of them – don’t find women of other races (especially black) equally attractive.

    That’s the true issue here.

    And since I don’t believe that intra-racial relationships should be default, this is a question for men of all races and not just blacks.

    However, since black men are raised by black women and surrounded by black women and loved by black women as they grow up, the lack of admiration/attraction towards black women some of them show is even more confusing than the lack of admiration men of other races show towards black women (which doesn’t excuse non-black men; like I said many times before, I don’t think intra-racial relationships are any more natural and “default” than the interracial ones).


  267. Abagond,

    One of the fundamental tactics used by the radical autonomist to be radically autonomous is to feign obliviousness to one’s radical autonomy.

    Like Mira, no one hear suggested that a) black men are brainwashed nor did we b) think you were speaking of ALL black men who sought sexual relations with white women.

    In fact, your formulation allows black man to get with white woman and blame it on white man so as to deflate the ire of the black woman.

    This little pattern of liberation has come to the law of diminishing returns.

    My formulation has an imperial-minded black man front and center. His ever ounce of autonomy is guarded like gold. He hunts. He hibernates. He indulges. He gets “high.” He broils. He’s paranoid. He has 500 years of black liberation to uphold. He has agency. He’s at war. He doesn’t let his daughters go white. He guards their gift like it was God-given. He wants separation. He wants black Supremacy.


  268. ^^^… no one [here]…

    ^^^… His [every] ounce…


  269. @ Thordaddy & Mira

    It is early morning here, perhaps I misread…


  270. thordaddy,

    Actually, I do agree with Abagond that racism plays a huge role in this: racism is what can make people form their admiration or a dislike towards people of certain races, and racism does shape people’s sexual preferences.

    That wasn’t what I questioned. I questioned the belief that intra-racial relationships are somehow “normal” or “natural” (more than IR are), so that being with a person of another race is somehow morally problematic on its own. And I also questioned the belief someone can’t love “their” people (whoever they define “their” people) and still marry/procreate with a person who belongs to another group.

    I honestly don’t get why Abagond singled me out for the “I never said all black men are brainwashed” comment. Maybe he’ll be happy to explain.


  271. Abagond,

    It is early morning here, perhaps I misread…

    Yup, that’s what happened, at least with my comment. Look, I know you’re annoyed with people adding “ALL” when it’s clearly implied (or said) “some”, but please don’t assume things.

    You may disagree with what I say but please, you know – disagree with what I actually said.

    On the other hand, no biggie.


  272. Too often the very same people who are eager to explain IR relationships that they don’t like as growing out of self-hate or media overexposure turn right around and praise those IR relationships that they do like (ie. those that feature their particular race/gender combination) as being somehow necessary or growing out of more valid emotions.

    This is incredibly hypocritical of course but all too human.


  273. The real reason why black men will date white women is BC white women will do sexual stuff that black women usually won’t do. Like for example, white women will tend to have anal sex, salad tossing, as well as letting him have other women more so than black women. With a white woman, a black man will feel like that he will be sexual loved more when the truth is those practices are not healthy. They are cause anal cancer, oral cancer and even hepatitis!! We meed to have sex and practice the way the most high intended us too!!


  274. Stefan,

    Funny thing, that is exactly what white people say about black women. A coincidence? Not at all!

    It all goes with: “Easier to get into bed – always a virtue with out-group women, never a virtue with in-group ones.”


  275. @thordaddy:
    “Sam,

    I stand corrected. You didn’t state that you had consequence-free sexual relations, rather, you stated that you had had no bad consequences from your sexual relations.

    Which is to say that you DIDN’T LIVE BY THE PRINCIPLE of “I may have sex with whomever I please.” On the contrary, thirty years of sexual relations with no bad consequences means you must have been quite careful and conservative.”

    Well, I have had sex with anyone whom I have wanted if they have felt the same way. Which means I have had sex with anybody I have wanted, basically. I did choose to have sex only with my wife for many many years and I chose to take care of my children willingly. We did not plan them, but welcomed them and took care of them. By the way, our divorce went well and we are still very good friends.

    Before my marriage and after it, yes I am divorced, I had and have had sex with multiple partners, BUT I still haven’t had unwanted results or consquenses. Yes, I tribute that to the fact that I have always been very responsible towards my partners, very much aware of the safety aspects and most of all, I have been totally honest with all of them. Safe sex helps to avoid VDs and it is only natural these days and being honest and concern towards ones partner means there will be no bad feelings or mistakes, misunderstandings or such.

    If that is conservative, then I am. It is definetly careful. It is not enough that we take care of our selves, we must also be responsible of our partners. whom ever they might be.


  276. I am NOT dissing interracial relationships I am just saying that you can date out of that race as long as you don’t COMPLETELY abandon your race of women he way Black men do when they date out. And yes, it is nice seeing Black women in interracial relationships because it tells me that they have moved on from Black men.


  277. Adeen,

    Whoever refuses to ever, ever date people of a certain race get a serious side eye from me. It’s one to date interracially because the person you fell in love with happens to be of another race. But to refuse to ever consider a person of a certain race as a partner, or to claim there are no attractive people of that race is insane.

    Also, I remember reading some numbers which show that white women are actually the group least likely to date interracially.


  278. @Peanut

    “does any one notice how they never show black people making love in the media? I don’t mean angry, degrading sex, I mean genuine love making, they don’t show that…but have no issues showing white people doing that. I think that speaks to the overall discomfort that the white media has with Black sexuality. It’s only acceptable for Black men and Black women to be sexual when its either in a degrading way or when it benefits whites.”

    This can also be caused by the fact that white people do not feel connected to other races. They need white characters, because they can easily relate to them.

    https://webapps.utsc.utoronto.ca/ose/story.php?id=2135

    http://www.livescience.com/14879-faces-races-alike.html

    this can be a factor too:

    http://colorlines.com/archives/2011/07/study_finds_white_people_dont_watch_black_movies.html

    @Mira

    “One of the main issues in any IR dating discussion is the belief some people have that men and women of the same race somehow “belong” to each other; that they are “natural” partners to each other. Intra-racial pairings are product of certain historical circumstances (well, race is a product of historical circumstances), but there are no “our” vs “your” women/men.”

    Isn’t this “our vs your” thing about cultural groups, not just racial? Nationality can make us consider some people as “our”, so can ethnicity, language (and slang), education, common history, belonging to the same social group, subculture, etc. When we see “our” kind we assume that they share at least some of our experiences.

    This isn’t just about race. We see people as “our” because we can notice similarities between them and us. It’s not irrational to assume that, since we come from similar backgrounds, we can have a lot in common.


  279. sometimes slept with white women to “get back at slavery,” and he said he hoped her grandparents were rolling over in their grave

    black men just have too many issues! that is why i dont deal with them. bring me a white, mexican or indian man! they love me and i dont have to deal with the drama!!!


  280. eco,

    Yes, that applies to all in-grouping. It doesn’t matter which parameter you use to define who’s “us” and who’s “them” (race, ethnicity, nationality, religion, etc.)

    I still don’t see a partner who shares my race, ethnicity, nationality or religion to be automatically “more for me” than somebody who doesn’t share these things with me. These men aren’t my “default” partners, and I sure don’t want to be seen as a default partner for them.


  281. @Mira

    When you are analyzing the personality of a potential partner, aren’t you looking for certain characteristics? Moral values, hobbies, education, intelligence, job, temperament, etc. similar to your own? If you are looking for similarities, aren’t they defining what “your” kind of person is?


  282. Yes. But people of all races/ethnicities/religions can share my hobbies, interests, education, moral values, temperament, etc.

    That is “my” personal kind of a person. I support this way of thinking, because you see who is “yours” based on your individual personality and interests. What I don’t like when “your person” is defined not based on personality but some collective traits, such as ethnicity, race or religion. I might not share any personality traits with such a man and we might not be compatible at all.

    Additionally, finding someone truly compatible, somebody you can be with and feel like everything is just the way it should be, it’s very difficult, so limiting yourself only for people of your own race (ethnicity, religion, nationality) doesn’t make much sense to me.


  283. @ Mira

    I think that, in general, factors like hobbies and education on their own are as vague (they don’t say much about a person) as religion or language. Combinations of characteristics form something specific.

    Ok, I think I understand your point of view. Things like religion, ethnicity and language do seem important to me. They may not necessarily be “deal breakers”, things that would make me lose interest in a person, but they can cause a lot of problems.


  284. Hey, I understand. I was talking about myself. I know myself and I know what suits me. Obviously, not all people think the same, which is kind of a good thing. But interests and hobbies aren’t the most important; the most important is the way he approaches the relationship and what kind of a person he is. If he’s not loyal and devoted, he’s out.

    Maybe it’s just me; maybe it’s easier for others to find many compatible people so they can choose based on religion, race, etc. But many of us aren’t that fortunate. Finding a compatible person is hard enough, so I never wanted to limit myself with partners from my group only.

    Still, I do believe there’s no such a thing as “default” partners in natural sense of the word.


  285. on Tue 31 Jan 2012 at 16:23:38 vanishing point.

    Years ago, in one of my first jobs, my co-worker, black, was married to a white woman, we were all the same age, hung out together and what really shocked me was that his wife would go home at Christmas without him, so that her grandparents wouldn’t know that she was married to a bm. Havent seen them in years so I don';t know if they are still married.

    Another IR couple that I know, a bw and wm, also surprise me at times, because he is so predjudiced about everybody except his own children. I also see this strange behavior in transracial adoption families, where the white parents adopt a child from another race, but haven’t dealt with their own personal racism ,and can even reject adults from the same race/community of their transracially adopted child.

    I also thought it was weird that Tiger Woods picked the same type of white woman over and over again, no variety, which I always thought men liked variety and checking out different things on the menu.

    This type behavior does make it questionable when a bm would consistently choose ww in their relationships, it does seem racist and self- hating, the ww being a prize I forgot, I have neighbors who are IR, and the ww is totally clueless about racism, insists that it never happens to her husband or children.

    I don’t know if it has ever been addressed here ,but it also seems to me that ww are insecure and jealous of woc, and I am going to quess that a lot of ww feel threatened by the beauty of bw, which makes the whole meme about bw being ugly even more confusing and ridiculous to me.


  286. @Mira

    “Still, I do believe there’s no such a thing as “default” partners in natural sense of the word.”

    Isn’t it a little like beauty? Beauty isn’t objective, measurable, so in this sense there is no good reason to call anything beautiful, but beauty is a real thing because a lot of people consider certain things to be beautiful. Their subjective opinions cumulated create something real, something that affects the lives of other people.
    Likewise, some people are seen as our default partners not because it objectively makes sense, but because a lot of people think along similar lines and pay attention to certain characteristics.


  287. I also thought it was weird that Tiger Woods picked the same type of white woman over and over again, no variety, which I always thought men liked variety and checking out different things on the menu.

    This type behavior does make it questionable when a bm would consistently choose ww in their relationships, it does seem racist and self- hating, the ww being a prize I forgot, I have neighbors who are IR, and the ww is totally clueless about racism, insists that it never happens to her husband or children.

    You are assuming, of course, that Tiger Woods thinks of himself as black.


  288. on Tue 31 Jan 2012 at 17:27:52 vanishing point.

    right about that, Satanforce, I forget the name he used to self-identify.


  289. Adeen Danica Mckenzie said:
    “I am NOT dissing interracial relationships I am just saying that you can date out of that race as long as you don’t COMPLETELY abandon your race of women he way Black men do when they date out. And yes, it is nice seeing Black women in interracial relationships because it tells me that they have moved on from Black men.”

    Yet no mention of how the BWE abandons black men to get with their “rainbeau” man.

    I see the pattern.
    Black women dating IR = Moving on, Breakin’ free from the oppressive black man.
    Black men dating IR = Abandoning and disrespecting black women.

    What a load of feminist baloney

    ciara said:
    “black men just have too many issues! that is why i dont deal with them. bring me a white, mexican or indian man! they love me and i dont have to deal with the drama!!!”

    And black women and non black men don’t have any issues. Get real and grow up!


  290. abagond

    @ Blanc2

    “Agabond, I’d be interested to know if you have any insights with respect to the phenomenon one often sees, especially around my home town, of black men with obese white women. Is it as simple as a cultural preference for thick women, or is it more about what Chris Rock suggests in his stand-up, that these women are considered the “dregs” by white culture, thereby creating a dynamic of black men accepting the “scraps” left by white men? Or perhaps an admixture of these concepts?”

    @ I think it is mostly because, in general, black men and white men in America look at female body shape differently.

    Really? I guess I am dubious because one of the things most oft quoted about undesirable BW is the fact that they are big, too big in fact at times and where clothes that are innappropriate for their size, i.e. tight /ill fitting clothes etc and that BW generally dont take care of themselves, in other aspects of their appearance.

    Honestly? I think there is a case of ‘double standards’ amongst some BM – of course, I refer to the one’s who exclusively date WW. Whilst they set the bar extremely high in terms of their preferences for BW, I have found that in their WW they are seemingly content to ‘settle’


  291. Does anyone know of any good (representative) BWE websites or books?


  292. on Tue 31 Jan 2012 at 17:47:51 vanishing point.

    I think this blog is well known, http://www.whataboutourdaughters.com/


  293. I have read some of the comments, it’s pretty painful to get through all of this. However I would like to just make a fairness statement pertaining to some of the “white woman still has racist tendency” comments.

    If the stereotype that the black guy goes for these girls because it’s easier to control the relationship is true. then wouldn’t be easier for the black guy to hold on to his racist tendencies and even hatred as well? think about it.


  294. I think this blog is well known, http://www.whataboutourdaughters.com/

    That is an anomaly. It is perhaps, the only positive representation of BWE kn the Internet.

    This website is considered the original, and most definitive statement of the BWE doctrine. The blog’s contents have also been turned into a book.

    http://sojournerspassport.com/

    And here are some more.

    http://interracialloveandspicebysara.blogspot.com/

    http://dateawhiteguy.blogspot.com/

    http://www.blackfemaleinterracialmarriage.com/


  295. I also would be curious to do a poll on here to see how many of the most outspoken on here have white girlfriends or wives. That would really be something if not almost comical.


  296. @vindicator

    http://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/01/27/black-men-white-women/#comment-110145

    Them b!tches make me lol

    @ vanishing point

    The gentleman considers himself a “Cablinasian.”

    @ all

    A useful glossary for understanding the heifers of the BWE.

    Damaged Beyond Repair (DBR) Refers to all (and only) black men. The idea is the for whatever reason, black men who are not these women’s kin are troubled misogynists, who are verbally abusive at best and potential rapists at worst. This is of course, backed up using confirmation bias ad highly circumstantial statistics.

    From Evia

    It stands for Damaged Beyond Repair. TM Evia’s blog. Which is a person, usually a male who brings new meaning to word dysfunctional and takes out his inferiority complex and pain on unsuspecting (usually black) women. So a DBR isn’t always racially or gender based. It’s about the behavior, but the behavior tends to be displayed mostly by black males – because of all of the above

    Rainbeau A handsome non-black man who is interested in an interracial relationship with a black woman, A portmanteau of Rainbow and beau.

    Mammy/Sista Souljah As one of the fundamental doctrines of the BWE is that black woman handicap and martyr themselves at the altar of the black community and black men, they therefore castigate black women for this “fact ” by condemning black women who have anything good to say about black men, or participate in civil rights as “mammies” and Sista Souljahs

    Guardian of all things Dark and Lovely A person or organisation (eg. Abagond) that refutes the stereotypes about blacks through empirical, statistical or rational argument, while it the same timetaking pride in blackness. The phrase is of course, used sarcastically


  297. also @leigh I hate to pick on you, but seriously, you don’t think Kim Kardashian is good looking at all? I’m sorry, but you are most likely lying and hating.

    It’s like when I read comments about how people say she’s mean like a Britney Spears type. Honestly I don’t see that, I think she is a nice lady who made some mistakes like we all have and the jealous hate from people compound that. They are a nice family. I was voting for Rob , her brother, to win the Dancing with the stars show.

    You were only willing to accept anything from her if it was seen by abagond that she wasn’t seen as “white” will you stop it already.


  298. thanks for the bw/wm sites!! didnt know about them!!


  299. look at him calling bw heifers. but bm date outside their race more than bw do and he aint got NOTHING to say about them.


  300. Interesting discussion, I agree with what you wrote above Abagond. I’d like to add the this phenomonom as to why some BM marry or only date WW: they didn’t get the love and attention from their own AA mothers and found more comfort and love from their teachers-predominantly white (internalized racism/brainwashing) that made them seek out WM.

    Here’s an interesting link–> http://s1.zetaboards.com/Express_Yourself/topic/4639267/1/
    Don’t believe the hype

    ps. I married a fine BM, they do exist and he’s got an Abagond mentality too! :-D coming up on 10yrs this Aug!


  301. @dave

    also @leigh I hate to pick on you, but seriously, you don’t think Kim Kardashian is good looking at all? I’m sorry, but you are most likely lying and hating.

    &

    You were only willing to accept anything from her if it was seen by abagond that she wasn’t seen as “white” will you stop it already.

    Hang on a minute here dave, clearly I cant speak for Leigh, and she is more than capable of doing this herself :-) but, your comment smacks to me of what a lot of abagonds posts have referred to – brainwashing. Society says that Kim K is good looking so, we ALL must agree that she is good looking? Come on, you know that Leigh isnt necessarily a hater just because she doesnt agree with abagond (as I think I recall somewhere he had a pash for Kim K ;-) ) and what seems to be the general concensus for a lot of men. Besides, from what some other commenters have said, her ‘looks’ enhanced by surgery but I dont follow her or their show so I really couldnt say.

    You know that looks are subjective, otherwise some of the topics that feature on this blog that discuss the perceptions of certain womens looks wouldnt be so potentially contentious.


  302. LOL @Randy

    “I once had a black flatmate who exclusively dated white women.

    His stated rationale? They were easier to get and easier to get along with.

    A caveat though: he wasn’t referring to all white women, just the ones who dated black guys.

    The strategy worked like this: we’d go to a bar (never a club) where there were no other black people, ensuring that he’d be the only “cool black guy”. A certain type of white woman would either come over to chat, or else indicate receptiveness.

    If this didn’t occur, or if there were any other black folks, he’d want to leave. From my observation, this technique for identifying and exploiting that niche market was rather successful.

    I asked why he never dated black women, and he said that they placed “expectations” on him which white women who were drawn to the “cool black guy” wouldn’t.”

    Ha, the “token Black.” So it IS true, the need to stand out, to be “special.” How sad. SMH.


  303. I’m disturbed by the inclusion of IQ scores. If you don’t believe race is a determining factor of intelligence, why would you include them? And if you believe race IS a determining factor in intelligence, how do you reconcile that will your fight against white supremacist racism?


  304. @ Mira

    honestly i don’t really see that many love scenes between white men/black women either unless it’s done in a degrading way, but i don’t see like the romantic love scenes that often and I definitely don’t see it between Black men and Black women hardly ever.

    I can only remember seeing a “love scene,” between bm/ww in Crash, Jungle Fever and “O” the one with mekhi phifer oh and on the wire, but that was a TV Show.

    I can’t even remember the last time I saw a love scene in a movie between a Black man and Black woman though, it’s always degrading if anything


  305. abagond said,

    “Does anyone know of any good (representative) BWE websites or books?”

    I know of a quite a few abagond, I’ll email them to you


  306. Here is an article that is counter-factual to what I and NaMu posted.

    Interracial Dating Angers Many Black Women at Brown U.

    After a bit of searching, I managed to find an article I read a few years ago which opened my eyes to a perspective on inter-racial dating held by some Black women. Essentially, in the mid-nineties, a group of Black women at Brown University were so hurt and frustrated by what they perceived as the eagerness of Black men to date white women that they created a “Wall of Shame.” On this wall, they put photos of Black men who they felt were “guilty” of shunning Black women for white women, and perpetuating notions of white superiority in beauty.

    It had an impact on me when I read it, because their feelings were so close to the feelings of some Asian-American males. If you replace “Black men” with “Asian women,” “Black women” with “Asian men,” and “white women” with “white men” in this article, you’ll get something that is pretty much 100% applicable in tone and feeling to the Asian-American situation and discourse.

    This article brings up so many points of discussion, I can’t believe I didn’t search it out sooner. I’ll have more comments to make on it, and on this topic in general, since I feel the air is so thick with ego and pain and distortion, but I wanted to put up the article immediately so that people could understand a similar situation and set of emotions from a perspective where the race is different and the genders are reversed, which might serve as a basis for future reasoned and compassionate discussion.

    From a Google cache of an article by the Chronicle of Higher Education

    Interracial Dating Angers Many Black Women at Brown U.

    By Ben Gose
    From the issue dated May 10, 1996

    Lauren Handelsman, a white sophomore at Brown University, didn’t expect many problems when she began dating a black student in the fall of 1994.

    “We’re at Brown,” she remembers telling Thabiti Brown, her boyfriend, who is also a sophomore, as their friendship grew serious. “People are really open-minded here. People are nice here.”

    “Well,” she says now, “I guess not.”

    She had expected a few racist asides when they walked off-campus in Providence holding hands, or maybe some awkward small talk at mostly white parties.

    Instead, the most flak has come from black women who think that black men who date non-black women are abandoning their race, Ms. Handelsman says. Many of them glare when she and Mr. Brown walk around the campus, she says. Friends tell her that some black women criticize her behind her back.

    Last October, in an incident that still has students talking, seven black women got personal in their crusade against black-white romance.

    The women, who had gathered in the dormitory room of Felicia Carmen Lyde, a sophomore, scrawled “Wall of Shame” on a wall with an erasable blue marker. They then wrote the names of famous black men who either date or have married white women, according to Ms. Lyde.

    Then, on the door of Ms. Lyde’s room, the women made a second list, with about a dozen names of black men on the campus who, they said, date white women — including Thabiti Brown and, simply, “the basketball team.”

    Ms. Lyde lives on the busy first floor of Harambee House, a dormitory for students who are interested in African-American culture. News of the “Wall of Shame” circulated quickly, setting off fierce arguments within the black community at Brown. Men on the list were hurt, as were children of mixed-race marriages. Most Brown students, however, did not learn about it until Michael Maimon, a white columnist at The Brown Daily Herald, the student newspaper, wrote about it in January.

    The black women who created the list say it was the result of frustration that has been building for a long time. Black men at Brown have simply rejected them, they say.

    “People come up to me and say, ‘Why did you do it? Didn’t you know it would hurt people’s feelings?’” says Ms. Lyde.

    “Didn’t they know that my feelings have been hurt all along?”

    On one level, the controversy involving interracial dating at Brown is simply the most intimate version of a broader campus debate involving race and ethnicity. At many colleges, the need for racial solidarity runs up against the ideal of race-blindness in such issues as housing and special orientation programs for minority students.

    But the dating issue is also a question of demographics. At Brown, black women outnumber black men 211 to 154. The discrepancy is even wider nationally. About 900,000 black women were enrolled in undergraduate and graduate programs at colleges and universities in 1994, compared with 550,000 black men, according to the U.S. Department of Education.

    It makes things worse, says Leslie Abrams, a black junior at Brown, when “the black men who are here don’t want to have anything to do with you.” She says she was not involved in the “Wall of Shame” but sympathizes with those who created it.

    Some black women at Brown believe that half of the black men there date white women at least occasionally.

    But Ralph Johnson, a sophomore who made Ms. Lyde’s list, says he can count the number of black men in relationships with white women on two hands.

    Mr. Johnson, who says he usually dated black women in high school, says he fell for Rachel Davidson, who is white, shortly after a friend introduced them in a campus cafeteria. They have dated for more than a year now.

    contd. on http://www.thefighting44s.com/archives/2007/08/10/browns-wall-of-shame-in-inter-racial-dating/


  307. ciara said:
    “look at him calling bw heifers.”

    Actually Satanforce was calling the BWE, heifers. I can think of far more worse things to say about them. I’ll just stick with “deluded race based misandrist feminist cult”!

    ciara said:
    “bm date outside their race more than bw do and he aint got NOTHING to say about them.”

    I have. You mad right *insert trollface*
    Even with black men at the bottom of the totem pole of the USA. They still tun rings aroun black women when it comes to IRR.

    I feel a little sorry for BAW but the BWE can as the east end London saying goes – Do One.


  308. Abagond:

    Do blackmen who date/marry outside of their race realize that they’re being used by whitemen to destroy themselves and their race? Any human being with common sense can see that blackmen are committing racial suicide. None of this insanity came about by chance, it’s by design. Whitemen are clever, very clever indeed. Bombarding black males with images of whitewomen via commercials, sitcoms, dramas, talk-shows, sports, etc. Pushing black males into sports and hip-hop, which is an easy way to draw-in white females because whites are obsessed with black culture anyway. In essence, whitemen have no shame in pimping their own women to destroy blackmen, No Shame! Blackmen think they’re doing it big so to speak, Wrong! The joke is on us as blackmen. As far as whitewomen supposedly being the most attractive, that’s bulls**t too. How many real whitewomen do we see in white media? Blonde, blue-eyed, pale skin, thin. I’ve seen my fair share of real whitewomen, and they’re not as fine as they think they are, Real Talk! Again, white folks are very clever. They’ve replaced whitewomen in media with a bunch of mixed whitewomen who owe their beauty to blackwomen. So, how can they say that they’re superior to blackwomen, when blackwomen made them what they are? I stress this point a lot because a lot of us don’t pay attention to what we see in white media. Blackwomen should never waste time arguing with whitewomen over beauty, Never! Just mention the names of the “Group of Four.” The Spanish, Portugese, Arabs, and British, Check Mate! Also, let’s shine a light on Dr. King’s “I Have A Dream Speech.” Uncle Tom blackmen have been around since slavery, nothing new. The speech gave them a convenient excuse to be what they’ve always been, self-hating blackmen. They can call it whatever they want to, not loving the women of your race is self-hatred…Bottomline! Another group that i have beef with, the biracial class. Why we didn’t chuck the one drop rule after slavery, is beyond me. In my opinion, they’ve contributed to this problem more than anybody. Blackmen have used the false premise of biracial=black as a scapegoat. Let’s be real about this. Half-black is not black. Half-black has no loyalty to our race. Half-black is not black enuf. I know it, they know it, and their black fathers know it as well. I don’t care about the rule anymore, it’s dead to me…DEAD! As i’ve said before on this blog, whitemen and others don’t need weapons to destroy blackmen, sex will and can do a better job than any handgun, rifle, bomb, tank, etc. Think about it black people? ABORTION, HIV/AIDS, HOMOSEXUALITY, AND RACE-MIXING. Who knew that sex could be so deadly after all? Again, we need to stay on course, and deal with the real problem. Which is dilution and destruction of blackness. I don’t want us to become like our spanish sistas and brothas, and end up with egg on our face…puerto-ricans and dominicans i’m talking about you, yes i am. Running around trying to be black after the fact. When they were black, didn’t want it. When black no more, all of a sudden they wanna be black…Wonderful! As to blackwomen, why do they keep supporting blackmen who don’t give a damn’ about them and their race? I want sistas to prove to me how upset they really are by boycotting blackmen such as Reggie Bush, Lamar Odom, Terrence Howard, Taye Diggs, and all of the other imposters. Throw Clarence Thomas and Herman Cain in with them as well, because, they’re held to a higher standard. Athletes, rappers, and actors are entertainment for white folk anyway…Real Talk! Abagond, i’m gonna make life miserable for the blackmen in question, Mark My Word!!!

    Tyrone
    Black Eros Movement


  309. I thought I should get in on the action since this post may be on for debate for sometime.
    I can relate to comments from Peanut, who is clearly hurt and disappointed by some people’s lack of response to negative comments and issues towards black women.
    MaMu1977, bulanik and some others made some good points as well, all which the post addressed; self hatred, availability (who is more available and who wants you) and men (women too) just wanting to have sexual/marital relations with whomever they can get it from.

    Btw, the YouTube video about perfect male-black man/perfect female-white woman, the guy with the creepy voice was very disturbing.
    He did say that world wide lighter skin complexion is considered more beautiful than a darker skin complexion. From where I sit it seems to be true, I am right or wrong for thinking that way?


  310. Yes, lighter skin complexion was/is seen as more attractive for a woman in most (all?) of the cultures. It was true even before slavery and colonization. Today is part of racism and back in the days was part of classism.


  311. @ Mira
    Also, I remember reading some numbers which show that white women are actually the group least likely to date interracially.
    Really? I see White girls at my school with all sorts of guys! Whether they be Black, White, Latino, Asian etc. I really don’t know about that. And plus White women are the ”epitome of beauty”. I am NOT trying to doubt you just saying.
    As for Vindicator, I wasn’t trying to be feminist or sexist. I have trying to say that I don’t think Black men love Black women anymore. It will make our slave ancestors roll in our graves if they see the IRR that is happening right now. And by the way, I am actually descended from Jamaicans


  312. Adeen Danica Mckenzie,

    That is because there are more white women so the actual number of them in IR relationship is larger than the other women. But the percentage of white women who do it is quite low. I don’t remember the numbers, but the percentage of white women in IR relationships is the lowest.

    Once again, this is something I remember reading… Somewhere. There’s no way I can find the link or back up this claim with a source. So please don’t take my word on it.

    But I do think that with all the talk about IR dating and who wants to date IR and who is reluctant, I do think white women are often overlooked – and they aren’t really as open to dating inter racially as one might think.


  313. @Satanforce:

    It appears you are conversant with these ‘heifers’. They sound ‘damaged’ themselves.


  314. “That is because there are more white women so the actual number of them in IR relationship is larger than the other women. But the percentage of white women who do it is quite low. I don’t remember the numbers, but the percentage of white women in IR relationships is the lowest.”

    I read or saw a recent poll somewhere (i think it was the on the view) that 75 percent of all white women was not attracted to black men. So yeah they date interracially a lot less than women of other races . I think asian women got white women beat by a long shot when it comes to interracial dating.


  315. “But the percentage of white women who do it is quite low. I don’t remember the numbers, but the percentage of white women in IR relationships is the lowest.”

    (American)White women are the least likely of any female cohort to marry interracially.

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/01/29/us/20110130mixedrace.html


  316. ^^^ very enlightening data.


  317. “Black men and White women” is a bottomless discussion, been going on since black women saw a lack of interest from men of other races compared to the romantic options of black men. I doubt that if there interracial options were the same for black women we’d be so eager to count these unions as invalid or attach conditions for what black men can do or say when they are with women who aren’t black, or black enough. I’m just being honest here. Black men shouldn’t be made to feel guilty or uninformed about their what they do with their penises unless we’re willing to do a breakdown about why black men deal with black women when the success rate is just as marginal as the former. I have my preferences and their not up for debate. I’m secure enough to extend that same courtesy to the opposite sex.


  318. @dave:

    also @leigh I hate to pick on you, but seriously, you don’t think Kim Kardashian is good looking at all? I’m sorry, but you are most likely lying and hating.

    Hate to pick on me? I’m sure you’re wrenching your heart about it. Btw, where have I said I don’t think KK is good looking at all? Are you pulling stuff out of your behind again? I never lied, but as for hating, you’re right about that. I don’t care for KK because she’s a no talent, attention seeking famewhore. Did I forget anything else? I can’t wait until her 15 minutes are up and fades into obscurity the same way as her friend,or shall I say, former friend, Paris Hilton. Paris Hilton who? It’s only a matter of time. lol!

    &

    You were only willing to accept anything from her if it was seen by abagond that she wasn’t seen as “white” will you stop it already.

    Again, stop pulling stuff out of your derriere. You’re making this stuff up.


  319. @Demerera:

    Hang on a minute here dave, clearly I cant speak for Leigh, and she is more than capable of doing this herself but, your comment smacks to me of what a lot of abagonds posts have referred to – brainwashing.

    Thanks girl. Some people are sooo presumptuous, huh? ;)


  320. $0.02 said:

    Ha, the “token Black.” So it IS true, the need to stand out, to be “special.” How sad. SMH.

    “Standing out” appears to be a commonly successful mating strategy for men in general. For example, pubs in Scotland are filled with drinky Scots and nobody makes a fuss, but toss a single Scot into a bar in the American midwest, and just watch the ladies flock.

    My impression was less that he felt the need to stand out, but rather surprise at how little effort it took to meet girls provided that the situation was just-so.

    I think that a number of IR mating patterns fit this description. If any guy can attract a disproportionate amount of attention just by being at a particular type of person in a particular type of place, they’ll tend to do it.

    The corollary to this principle is that when someone attracts a mate by being unique in this manner, the mate will often (at least at first) not hold them to the same expectations as those they don’t find so exotic.

    I’d imagine this type of proposition is doubly compelling.

    Perhaps this explains some measure of the stereotype of out-group girls supposedly being “easy that night and easy the next day.”


  321. @Tyrone

    I think the greatest issue I take with your post is that you imply that the black man is “not” clever. Perhaps you didn’t see it that way.

    Also, your ostracizing of the mixed races is nothing new. That is the never-ending battle of the hapa-child. They are doomed to never be accepted by anyone.


  322. Oh, thank you, Mira for clarifying this with me. Yes, I did look it up and White Americans in general are less likely to wed interracially than other races.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage_in_the_United_States

    Among all newlyweds in 2008, 9% of whites, 16% of blacks, 26% of Hispanics and 31% of Asians married someone whose race or ethnicity was different from their own.
    You are right.
    And people can marry and date whoever thy want to marry and date as long as they don’t bash Black women. And 95% of Blakc men are married to Black women in America, can’t you believe it?


  323. And Waniapo, I’m sorry mixed people like you haven’t felt accepted by society. I thought it would be cool to be mixed raced. Anyways, I always wanted to ask Black men this and they never answered it: Why are A LOT of you guys so fascinated by White women(besides the media’s sterotypes about being the most beautiful women ever etc)? What about them makes ya’ll drool and run to them? is it their face? Skin? Eyes? ”Nice” hair?And this is for Abagond and other Black men who love and appreciate Sista’s.


  324. @Sam

    Your thinking of only the first aspect of Caucasian the second is:

    2

    : of, constituting, or characteristic of a race of humankind native to Europe, North Africa, and southwest Asia and classified according to physical features —used especially in referring to persons of European descent having usually light skin pigmentation

    And if living there is the only definition you use; than it becomes equally useless to say Kim K is white because of that since she herself does not live there.

    As I said; Caucasian includes in its definition at the very least people from India and they aren’t white by almost any one’s standard.


  325. on Wed 1 Feb 2012 at 03:22:43 vanishing point.

    I thought people from India were Asian, not Caucasian..


  326. I don’t care for KK because she’s a no talent, attention seeking famewhore. Did I forget anything else? I can’t wait until her 15 minutes are up and fades into obscurity the same way as her friend,or shall I say, former friend, Paris Hilton. Paris Hilton who? It’s only a matter of time. lol!

    You know, everytime I see KK’s face I look at a pretentious, overprivileged woman with no talent that the American media loves to death. There is nothing appealing about her, and there is nothing special about her. She’s just like Paris Hilton, and extremely overprivileged white woman that is the ambrosia for reality-based TV.


  327. there are even some biracial children from bm/ww who know that some black men are prejudiced against black women/brainwashed, it’s pathetic: http://www.thedefendersonline.com/2009/05/08/is-that-your-mama-reflections-of-a-biracial-daughter/


  328. @ wanpimao,

    there are plenty of communities of entirely mixed race people who have always been around, creoles for example of cape verde they;’re mixed people, they have their own unique culture.


  329. I think the key issue here is simply The Racism. That makes people go nuts over with whom who ever is dating/marrying/sleeping with. Personally I don’t care as long as people do not hurt each other.

    Motives of black men dating white men must be various. Motives of white women dating black men must be various. Motives of black women dating white men must be various.Motives of the white me dating black women must be various.

    The reason why these interracial realtionships, one way or the other, bother so many so much is racism. Either people are “betraying their race” or have some other ulterior motives. Some might do just that, but I bet in many cases the real motives behind choosing ones partner are the same as in any relationship: interest, curiosity, attraction, sex, love etc.

    The problems with interracial relationships remind me of the ones between different classes way back when, and in some societies still today. “You can not marry a girl from the lower class, you are betraying your class” etc. “Poor man dating rich girl is only after her money”, “Poor man is only looking to step up”, “Poor woman is just a gold digger”, “She is just after his money” etc.Sounds very similar to me.

    And the so called “mixed”? Well, show me some one who biologically is not. We are all mixed genetically. Not one of us is “pure” in any sense biologically. The only reason why some have problems with so called “mixed” is racism. There is no other reason. Mixed people are reminding us all that we all are in reality like that.

    And one interesting fact: demographics show that the human race, the one and only biological race, will get more and more mixed in the future. It is unvoidable. Future face of the mankind will look more like Brazil than any other. That is just the way things are going by numbers and biology of this human race. And good thing too. Perhaps that will stop the insanity of the racism and the fantasies of “Pure Race”.

    As for Kim K, she is just too fake for my taste. Nice looking girl, but simply too plastic for me.


  330. Kim K – SHUDDER. She could be nice looking if she’d lay off the makeup. Every time Yahoo runs a story on her the comments run about 99% against. Both her and Paris H are sleezes.

    As far as inter-racial marriage is concerned, one thing I learned early on is that you marry the family as well as the individual. You need to be sure that the both people are going to be comfortable with each others families or the marriage could be made miserable by them. This seems to occur primarily in my experience due to religion differences, but race is probably up there as well.

    I think hot black women are as common as any other ethnic group including white, but I was never around enough of them when I was single to date any, as at that very few lived within 300 miles of the Northern Rockies area where I was. It has changed since then. Most of the mixed marriages then including a brother’s were with Native Americans. A Canadian black friend who married a blond has a daughter who was dark skinned AND blond when young. Stunning, and still is, though as she grew older her hair turned dark as many blond people’s do.


  331. @ Peanut, Satanforce, vanishing point, etc

    Thank you all for the BWE info and links!


  332. @ Adeen

    I like Mediterranean sort of women but never got why thin, blonde-haired, blue-eyed, white-skinned women are supposed to be so great looking.

    More:

    http://abagond.wordpress.com/2007/06/16/the-most-beautiful-white-women/


  333. Black men shouldn’t be made to feel guilty or uninformed about their what they do with their penises

    And black American men should not try to make a black woman feel guilty about what she does with her vagina with their stupid comments when they tell me that I’m sleeping with my “enemy” when they see me out with a white man and enjoying myself.


  334. @ Mira & Demerera (and maybe Blanc2):

    I am not going to get drawn into talking about fat black women. Not on this thread. It has caused me enough grief elsewhere (partly of my own making, I admit). Here it would just derail.

    If you want to pursue it further or know my thoughts on it go here:

    http://abagond.wordpress.com/2007/10/31/thick-black-women/


  335. I doubt that if there interracial options were the same for black women we’d be so eager to count these unions as invalid

    But the interracial options for black women “are” just as good or even better. It’s just that black American women keep trying to stick with black American men and be loyal to them. Population-wise, it would take only a small fraction of white men in America to be interested in black American women for the women to have that option whenever they want. Some of the white guys I’ve dated tell me that black American women act like they don’t like white men.


  336. @ Tyrone

    So long as the One Drop Rule is in effect, black is black. Mixed race people who self-identify as black, like Obama, Zoe Saldana or Alicia Keys, are black in my book:

    http://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/12/17/is-obama-black/


  337. 2. even a bi-racial woman (with a white mother) is still second best – she is simply ‘too’ black for those black men who are determined to achieve a white woman.

    I don’t know whether you used the word “achieve” deliberately or not, but you are so right.

    I’m sorry to say this but why do black American women chase and cry here after black men when the men obviously don’t want them. I know lots of attractive young black women who black men where I work now don’t even look at. Just about all the black men in my company do try to “achieve” a white woman.

    Before someone starts with the tale about the 5000% of black men who are married to black women, I hope that black American women know that the masses of black American men are not married to anybody. A lot of those black men who are not married also date or live with women who are not black.


  338. Some black men date mainly white women because they have issues of self-hatred or internalized racism. And that is going to come out in the way they talk about black women. But that hardly means that most black men agree with them in all that they say. They are at one end of a range of opinions.


  339. @Jorbia

    Then black women need to stop listening to what black men have to say on the matter, unless black women like the attention which I’m starting to believe. As far as the options for black women, I doubt it and loyalty has nothing to do to with it, its insecurity on the part of black women. That doesn’t mean black women have no options when it comes to men in other groups but they are not “better” than the options of black men.

    Keep in mind that has more to do with the women in other groups being receptive based on American status and the earning power of the men as individuals, not because they are black. Black women see black men as black first so of course they have a different perspective. Black men and men of other groups see black women as black first and to be fair, they see other groups of women as race first/ethnicity first. I think we’ve ran out of excuses for why black women aren’t having the same exposure as black men to other groups.


  340. Some black men date mainly white women because they have issues of self-hatred or internalized racism. And that is going to come out in the way they talk about black women. But that hardly means that most black men agree with them in all that they say. They are at one end of a range of opinions.

    It’s obvious that if the overwhelming masses of black American men loved black women or regarded them well, then there wouldn’t be so much lashing out and misery-tinged comments between black men and black women. Most of the women seem to want the men, but the men scarcely show that they return that feeling.

    If there’s the silent majority as you’re indicating, of black men who don’t agree with these bashers of black women, then why don’t they speak out and stand up against the minority? Are they afraid? Or do they share many or most of the opinions of the bashers. This is why many black women believe that most black men do agree because anything else that black men don’t agree with, they speak out about it loudly. Why are they so silent about this one topic?


  341. @WarrenAz re-

    Then black women need to stop listening to what black men have to say on the matter, unless black women like the attention which I’m starting to believe.

    I fully agree with you, and I don’t, but you’re the one who said that black women should not be concerned with what black men do with their penises. Well, black men should ignore what black women do with their vaginas too. Black women and black men need to stop listening to each other.

    As far as the options for black women, I doubt it

    You’re entitled to your doubts. I’m around many young, well-educated, attractive black women who could date white men easily, but they hold back. I have seen this as a college and grad school woman and now as a professional woman.

    and loyalty has nothing to do to with it,

    They think they’re “supposed” to be with a black man.


  342. That doesn’t mean black women have no options when it comes to men in other groups but they are not “better” than the options of black men.

    Black men have a lot of options for sex with other women, but a black woman could have sex with many, many more men of other groups because all a woman has to do is offer it and lie there.

    If you’re talking about serious relationships, the only reason why more black American women don’t engage in them more with men of other groups is because black American women hold themselves back, thinking that they’re “supposed” to be with black men only. They don’t tend to socialize with men of other groups much. I see this. They just don’t. I see lots more African women socializing with white men in my large area where there are colleges and universities and they end up marrying those guys in some cases.

    You say black American women don’t do this because of insecurity. That may be true, but that doesn’t mean the options are not there. They need to hear that over and over.


  343. @jorbia

    Before someone starts with the tale about the 5000% of black men who are married to black women…. A lot of those black men who are not married also date or live with women who are not black.

    Heifer alert! Heifer alert! (notice that it ignored the cohabitation data on Wikipedia)

    It’s obvious that if the overwhelming masses of black American men loved black women or regarded them well, then there wouldn’t be so much lashing out and misery-tinged comments between black men and black women. Most of the women seem to want the men, but the men scarcely show that they return that feeling.

    This is why many black women believe that most black men do agree because anything else that black men don’t agree with, they speak out about it loudly. Why are they so silent about this one topic?

    ,No heifer. Its because most black men (and black women), don’t spend all day watching Sgt. Willie Pete and BlackMenVent, and are thus not concerned about a bunch of awkward, socially maladjusted, insecure black woman-hating losers.

    I’m sorry to say this but why do black American women chase and cry here after black men when the men obviously don’t want them. I know lots of attractive young black women who black men where I work now don’t even look at. Just about all the black men in my company do try to “achieve” a white woman.

    Sour grapes?

    Population-wise, it would take only a small fraction of white men in America to be interested in black American women for the women to have that option whenever they want.

    Ah. I see someone has read that Ralph Richard Banks book. Now we all know that one of the main problems with that book is that it takes the “dating arena as market” metaphor as it were a fact. But let’s ignore that for now.

    The main problem with relying on the market metaphor (Rational Choice Theory) is that it assumes that people are rational, and always make rational decisions. They don’t. As Abagond has stated in previous posts, white men are still influenced by racist media, and black women still have an aesthetic preference for black men.

    And then there are those who are affected by transactions made by those who are not buyers or sellers ie third parties. You speak of a surplus of white men to marry black women. Well, when you have 6 million more white women than white men, plus Asian women, and other “competing ” ethnicities, you get the feeling that someone is living in a very black and white world.

    But let’s say that what you are saying is true. Let’s say that black men all stopped loving white women, then had a million man march to show their affection to black women. Then they got their acts together and started pursuing black women.

    THEY STILL WOULDN’T WANT YOU!!!!

    Goddamn self-hating clown, you never liked black men to begin with! So get the hell of a blog post about black men dating white women, you animal! Coming here with this ni&&as aint $hit crap, go masturbate to Spartacus and 300!!


  344. I don’t know what happened to my last post, but I’ll say it again: hate breeds hate. Every BBM who I’ve ever known has been treated badly by the black women in his life (in the same way that every BWE woman has her tale of woe.) Using their rage as a barometer of *all* black peoples’ mindsets is ignorant. Let them wallow in their misery and do what’s best for yourself.


  345. @ MaMu

    It did not arrive at my end.


  346. @Satanforce

    Name-calling is for losers. I can tell that my points hit the bullseye and hit you in a few other places.

    You can deny what you want, but tons of black American women are living the experiences that reflect what I’m saying. They’re not interested in what you’re saying. They’ve heard it all before.

    Black men do want me because I’m one of those very light-skinned black women. Or let’s just say, they want my skin.

    For the record, I’ve gone out with men of all races.


  347. Bulanik said:

    @sepultura
    In a way it was rather heartening that Tiger Woods only cheated on his wife with many white women.

    I don’t mind this at all. More the merrier.

    Can you imagine what would have been said about those women he cheated with if they had been black?

    I’m glad you caught my drift! That was the point… :cool:

    For instance, out of all of the women that Herman Cain slept with, the only one that was made a big deal of was the ‘black’ one? I’d ASSumed that they were all ‘white’, but some of the media outlets were claiming that she was ‘black’ – must be the One Drop Rule farce.


  348. They’re not interested in what you’re saying. They’ve heard it all before.

    Then why are you and the rest of the heifers here?

    Black men do want me because I’m one of those very light-skinned black women. Or let’s just say, they want my skin.

    Not buying it. Referring to yourself in the third person is a dead giveaway that you are not what you claim you to be. Also the idea that black men are obsessed with light skinned women is simply non-nonsensical.

    You wanna know what black men like? Watch porn. From Ebony Ayes to Cherokee D’Ass, dark skinned women are the ones black men salivate over. In movies, From Angela Basset to Gabrielle Union. Video Vixens? Buffie the Body and Esther Baxter are still the standard that all must measure up to.

    Not to mention, this.

    but a black woman could have sex with many, many more men of other groups because all a woman has to do is offer it and lie there.

    That is a very unhealthy and unrealistic view of male/female relationships. If you honestly think that all a black women has to do is say to a man of another race is “Here, have some pu$$y!!”, I suggest you read the post on the Jezebel archetype. Most men are going to wonder what the hell is wrong with you?

    It also shows the essential paradox of the BWE – how do you get men of other races to approach you? You can’t go up to them due to stereotypes about black women being aggressive, and male/female dynamics, and they, for the most part, are not that interested in black women.

    Troll Mode Off

    You are right. Name calling is for losers and trolls. But you have also ignored all the rational arguments put forth by myself and others. And that is the problem. Black women do not seem to want to hear what black men have to say. You all seem to listen only to dysfunctional black men. When black women have shows about issues pertaining to average black men, they do not invite these men to speak. In both America and Jamaica. they instead show out of touch academics, or celebrities that just want to sell books speaking on behalf of black men.

    When black men date interracially, they are never asked why, in a cool calm manner. It is always presumed that they are self-hating, and hate black women so much that they would rather date fat, ugly white women instead.

    Unless you are a civil rights leader, an academe or a comedian it is almost impossible to express your feelings as a black man without being shouted down. And we are not pleased about that. At all.


  349. Demerera said:

    In terms of the topic at hand, of the WW I have encountered in IRR with BM, some of them have boasted about the fact that their parents/peers would not approve of their union. They have chosen to rebel and see the BM as the perfect weapon demonstrate to their defiance, thrusting this in the faces of those who they want to hurt. Clearly as a basis for relationship, it is doomed from the beginning. I can think of an example where a WW, (whom I had know as a child and who’s parents were not tolerant of such relationships) had 2 kids from different men BM. She was always bemoaning her situation and the men involved, running down their ‘black b*stard arses’ (her words) and saying how useless they were.

    This is what I’ve mainly seen of BM/WW relationships here in the Pacific Northwestern U.S. Even worse is when children of those unions are forced by those same, bitter women to only have friends that they approve of. I can think of three girls I knew while growing up, whose angry mothers hated dark skin so much that they literally refused to let me enter their houses to play with their kids. They wanted their kids to be friends with the white and asian ones, and not me. Talk about a sick mind-set.

    Ultimately, the only relationship I give a rat’s arse about is MY OWN – I think being happy with yourself and the one you’re with is what truly matters. If you’re a person who is overtly concerned with other people’s relationships, then you need to A) focus on your own issues with your own relationship, if you’re in one, or B) focus on your own issues within yourself so that you will be attractive to members of the opposite sex. Hating others is a major turn-off. So is being an arrogant, self-absorbed asshole.


  350. @satanforce–

    Women are not heifers. Those are young cows.

    I live my reality. I know how I look and I know what I am. You can think what you want of me but until Abagond asks me to leave, I’ll stay and comment.

    Also the idea that black men are obsessed with light skinned women is simply non-nonsensical.

    This statement proves that you’re in denial about this for some reason. Isn’t this black man’s preference for white and light women what’s being discussed in this thread?

    When you mention those black women you cited, those women are super gorgeous or super curvy or whatever. Most black women are not super gorgeous. They look ordinary, just like most women in other groups have ordinary looks. All women in other groups are not super gorgeous either.

    I don’t have to look at porn to find a black woman who I consider attractive.


  351. abagond said,

    “Some black men date mainly white women because they have issues of self-hatred or internalized racism. And that is going to come out in the way they talk about black women. But that hardly means that most black men agree with them in all that they say. They are at one end of a range of opinions.”

    I just look at it this way when you grow up and are immersed in a white supremacist culture from the day you’re born, it’s very difficult not to be brainwashed in some way. I think some Black men (and even some bw) who go with white women do it because they’re brainwashed whether they realize it or not. It’s a red flag if the black man goes exclusively with white women because in most cases, that is just internalized racism. It is azz backwards in my opinion to only date white or close to white women when we live in a white supremacist culture, there’s nothing “open-minded” about that. All you’re doing is validating the white supremacist mindset in our culture.

    The reason I PERSONALLY think this mindset is more common with Black men (although Black women do it too sometimes) is simply because they date out more and of the people that I know of who date non-black exclusively it’s almost always a Black man. Even if I meet a Black woman who dates interracially, she always dates Black men or has been married to a Black man at some point.

    Even with the “Something New Crew,” the rare Black women on the internet who go in tirades about how great/perfect white men are and how bad Black men are (some of the thinks to those type have been posted already) have at some point been involved with a Black man, I know a lot of them were married to Black men and had children by them, but got angry and bitter after an incident and decided to generalize all Black men (which isn’t right either).


  352. but that is vastly different than someone who has NEVER dated their own race and just hops from one non-black woman to the other. I’m sorry, but I believe there is a difference between someone who has been hurt by a person and wrongfully judges all people from that group because they’ve been hurt and a person who is just racist against his (or her) own and won’t even give their own race the time of day.

    I think the reason some Black women are starting to act like the Black men who bash black women is because they’ve been hurt and now they’re dating out.

    But on the rare occasion that I read some of the “Something New Crew,” bloggers, I just sense a lot of pain from them and its funny because a lot of those “Something New Crew,” bloggers fixate on Obama and praise him because he’s with a Black woman, but generalize all Black men. A lot of their posts focus on the rejection/lack of protection that they believe Black women go through because of Black men.


  353. @satanforce–

    When black men date interracially, they are never asked why, in a cool calm manner.

    Some commenters in this thread were trying to get some answers about why.

    I think that black men and black women should be with who they want. There’s a big, interesting world out there and I like mixing in it, so I can understand why others might want to mix in it too.

    Another thing is that I see ordinary looking but attractive black women everywhere, not just in the media. If black men don’t find ordinary black women attractive, women should just forget about them. Black women crying their eyes out and begging is not going to make black men want them and it makes the women look pitiful.


  354. Let’s unpack this

    Jump to 2:30. The gentleman made the standard brand crap comment about “black women’s attitudes”.

    The host, knowing the stereotype of the Sapphire, parodies it. Mocks it into the ground. And then an absolutely stunning lady stands up – and takes on the very same stereotype that was just caricatured. A second “suit and tie ” gentleman repeats the same thing as his friend. He is then answered by another lady who says the following

    1. Black men have inculcated the messages put out by white society, and unfairly apply these negative messages to black women.
    2. Black women are not “a hassle” to approach or date.
    3. Black women have been forced to be strong (and adopt masculine characteristics) due to black father figures being absent from their lives.

    Interestingly, when the following black woman who dated interracially stood up and spoke, she was not met with the aggression and put-downs that faced the previous two gentlemen. Nor was the same level aggression shown to the panel member who called white men “white boys.”

    But at the end of the clip, you have two black men who were (probably yet again) shouted down by black women, and humiliated on national television. Now, how do you think they feel about black women now?


  355. Now on the flip slid with Black men who date out exclusively, a lot of the times, their complaints are different or I find they’ve NEVER even dated a Black woman in the first place, but they have all these stereotypes built up in their minds and at the end of the day Black men are a smaller group than Black women, but they date out twice as much…that right there should be a red flag.

    As one poster said, where she is from in Africa most of the interracial couples are bw/wm BECAUSE by sheer numbers there are more Black women than Black men, so it would make more sense numerically (if things were balanced) for women to date out any way because there’s more Black women than Black men. Even when every black woman dates a Black man there are still more Black women left single, so some would have to date out by default. but the reverse doesn’t really add up.

    I am probably biased, but this is just my opinion. I personally think there’s a difference though, it seems like more Black men are brainwashed in the dating/marriage/mate sense than Black women. Now Black women are brainwashed in other ways, but when it comes to mate selection I think its more so a Black man thing to exclusively date out because they’re brainwashed.


  356. Even if I meet a Black woman who dates interracially, she always dates Black men

    That’s like me. I’ve dated interracially most of the time, but I’ve also dated black men. It has nothing to do with the skin. It’s about how he makes me feel. I’m an equal opportunity dater.


  357. @ jorbia

    i think that’s how it should be, if it was all about being open-minded and racially liberated, there’s no need to not date your own race, just date everyone…

    I wish some Black men who exclusively date non-bw would just stop hiding the fact that they aren’t being open-minded, but close-minded and just admit “yes, i’m probably brainwashed.”

    They can keep doing what they do, but don’t pretend that it’s just about being open-minded and your internalized racism/beauty standards have NOTHING to do with your preference…

    you do not magically wake up one day in a white supremacist culture and just NOT like your own race for no reason…no there is a reason for this

    “magical preference” http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=A%20Magical%20Preference


  358. Some commenters in this thread were trying to get some answers about why.

    See here:

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/01/27/black-men-white-women/#comment-110150

    and here:

    https://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/01/27/black-men-white-women/#comment-110172

    This statement proves that you’re in denial about this for some reason. Isn’t this black man’s preference for white and light women what’s being discussed in this thread?

    When you mention those black women you cited, those women are super gorgeous or super curvy or whatever. Most black women are not super gorgeous. They look ordinary, just like most women in other groups have ordinary looks. All women in other groups are not super gorgeous either.

    There are also several super curvy and and super gorgeous light skinned women that cold be put front and center by black men. Unless Black Men magazine has its “Latina edition”, or some member of the black underclass decides to put some light-skinned women in some video, dark-skinned women still get plenty of play.


  359. I wish some Black men who exclusively date non-bw would just stop hiding the fact that they aren’t being open-minded, but close-minded and just admit “yes, i’m probably brainwashed.”


  360. Don’t focus on the guys that got away, focus on the ones that are available, but eligible.

    There are decent (Black) guys out there.

    I think the only problem is, in America there are are more men than women, this has been mentioned in a few comments already. Whenever I think of that, it puts a damper on my mood.

    Why would a guy commit to one woman when he can have a variety? I’m not looking to be anyone’s “sisterwife.”


  361. My mistake: more WOMEN then MEN in America.


  362. @Peanut —

    I wish some Black men who exclusively date non-bw would just stop hiding the fact that they aren’t being open-minded, but close-minded and just admit “yes, i’m probably brainwashed.”

    Yes, I think that some black men like that would do a lot of black women a tremendous favor if they would just tell them that no matter what black American women do, they are still going to to want a white woman over a black woman. That would save many black women so much anguish. But these black men won’t do that. They keep lots of black women suspended thinking that maybe they should wear different lipstick color, tighter clothes, more lip gloss, hair extension or weave, expensive perfume, have bariactric surgery if necessary to get thin, lie about their education so the man won’t feel threatened, have sex in all kinds of unsafe ways, cook, clean, say okay to the men having girlfriends and boyfriends, and so many other things. I’ve heard black women talk about these things.

    I heard that one reason why some black women don’t want to lose much weight is because they’re scared they may also lose their curvy behinds too. If they do that, then they think black men won’t want them at all.


  363. @sepultura13

    I can think of three girls I knew while growing up, whose angry mothers hated dark skin so much that they literally refused to let me enter their houses to play with their kids. They wanted their kids to be friends with the white and asian ones, and not me. Talk about a sick mind-set.

    Disgusting but unfortunately, unsurprising in some that their feelings of wretchedness came to the surface and manifest in this way. I may have said it on another post but one girl I used to play with, Black father, White mother whose mother used to curse her, calling her a ‘Bl00dy Ni66a’ when she got particularly frustrated with her. I was there on one occassion, she apologised to me but not to her daughter….to say that the daughter didnt grow up with a significant degree of self loathing is to put it mildly.

    Another angle to this that I guess WW only can answer. I used to work with a WW who dated a BM. When they broke up, she went for a ‘night out with the girls’ and got talking to a man who she liked. She talked about her recent break up to him, confiding that she was still a bit cut up but was looking to the future. Somehow or other the conversation came round to the fact that he was black (I dont know how I wasnt there, this is just what she told me) but, the WM was disgusted (apparently) and said that no decent self respecting WM would want her as she had been with a ………

    I wonder if this is a common experience for WW who date across the ‘races’?


  364. “But, could you tell me this?
    – How did the brainwashed, dysfunctional black man who finds a black woman ‘repulsive’ BECAUSE of her blackness (and thus, would not even go near even one) become ‘representative’ of black male sexual taste anyway?”

    It didn’t happen. It’s not true.
    Most black men who marry, marry black women.
    Most black men who cohabit, are cohabiting with black women.
    Most black men who are dating, are dating black women.

    Most white women do not find black men attractive enough to marry or cohabit with and vice-versa.

    For some strange reason, some black women seem to be unable to process this information.

    The black men who do date or marry non-black women likely do so for a variety of reasons, most of which are particular to the individual. Some of those reasons are “valid” ;others are “invalid”. Either way it’s their life.

    There are some people, who through feelings of inadequacy or bitterness at their own romantic failings or internalized hate, like to blame others for things. When white men do this , most people are able to recognize that the white man in the corner mumbling about how white women aren’t any good and they’re all going with those g****** n*****s has some rather serious issues he needs to work on.

    When black women do the same, somehow we don’t call them on their bs.
    If white men found black women more attractive we would not see this constant harping over BM/WW relationships. But that is not something Black men have any control over. That’s a question for White men. Why do white men marry or cohabit with black women in such low numbers? Dunno….


  365. I listened to the videos that satanforce posted and I had never heard some of that before. I think that black women are causing much of their own anger about this by begging black men to like them and getting the cold shoulder in return.

    I guess black women don’t want to hear this, but black women like the one talking in the videos are the ones who won’t allow black American men to just tell them the truth. Why on earth are black men afraid to just say, ” I want a white woman or a woman who’s not black.” They don’t want black women anyway. What do the men have to lose? Then the women would be free to do whatever they want.


  366. @Demerera

    I can only offer you anecdotal evidence, but it is apparently quite common. Particularly in areas where there is more overt racism.


  367. SG,
    You just keep repeating your ANTI-BW BS/DENIALS of REALITY and that will make it all true.

    EVERYONE can SEE that there is an epidemic of ANTI-BW BM who ONLY date/marry NON-BW because they are ANTI-BW HATERS.

    These ANTI-BW BM PROVE they’re ANTI-BW HATERS by their CONSTANT PUBLIC trashing of the humanity, dignity, and femininty of BW as their JUSTIFICATION for being with NON-BW/for their RACIST REJECTION of BW.

    The FACT is:

    BW could CARE LESS who BM date/marry as long as they don’t
    engage in ANTI-BW HATE as a JUSTIFICATION for doing so.

    BM OWE BW THEIR LIVES and ALL DUE RESPECT period end of story.


  368. But that is not something Black men have any control over.

    True. Black American women need to stop being angry with black men about this. I think they need to stop talking to black men about it too because the more they talk about it to the men, the more it hurts them. We can hear the hurt in the woman’s voice.

    That’s a question for White men. Why do white men marry or cohabit with black women in such low numbers?

    I don’t think they need to ask white men anything. The kind of black American women, especially the ones I’m around, who are younger, ordinarily attractive, and educated just need to let average white men know they like them by not acting cold and standoffish toward them. They need to socialize a lot more with white men and be patient. Sooner or later, they’ll hit paydirt. After all, what do black American women have to lose at this point?


  369. @ Laromana–

    BM OWE BW THEIR LIVES and ALL DUE RESPECT period end of story.

    I agree with all you say but obviously a lot of black women just need to pack their bags at this point and leave because a whole lot of black American men are not going to ever pay them back. The women are losing their self respect now by trying to collect on what’s owed to them.


  370. @Bulanik Absolutely and that needs to stop. Black men of the American variety are a marginalized group and have little compared to other groups, including a culture that doesn’t define masculinity based on who they are as men. When black women question their romantic choices they are undermining the right of a black man to be a man. At the same black women are perversely empowering these men with their insecurities about being black women and turn black men’s choices into a zero sum game. Asking a marginalized group of men to remedy something they have no real control over (how black women feel about themselves) and a monopoly they benefit from is impractical. I say stop putting premiums on what black men have to offer. All racial groups are the same including their capacity for affection, why put one under a microscope?

    @jorbia If these women are educated then the critical thinking and analysis skills they acquired at university should have been enough for them to see past the “what they’re supposed to do” doctrine.

    Also I’d like to take the game of chicken that black women play with black men off the table. If there are black men who want to make noise about who black women are with then let them. I think we can hold ourselves to better standard of conduct don’t you?


  371. @wanpimao

    I can only offer you anecdotal evidence, but it is apparently quite common. Particularly in areas where there is more overt racism.

    I hear you wanpimao and I can’t give stats, merely experience of this.

    Another scenario I recall is a kid on my estate who’s father was Asian. They lost contact when the boy was a very young age and his mother (a WW) took up with a WM and he brought the lad up as his own. One of the kids on the estate took exception when this lad called him a racist name, and (having heard from his mother about this boys parentage), the other kid responded in kind! Well, the lads mother, went mad, going to the other kids parents house and raising hell. It seems that she had never told her son why although for all intents and purposes his skin was ‘white’, why it had an olive hue and tanned easily….

    @bulanik

    Could this be why we too often hear that only an ‘easy’ white woman would go with a black man, and why black men are only going with white women because they are ‘easy’ because if she sleeps with him, she’ll sleep with anyone?

    In part, yes, I certainly agree with this but, for some it goes deeper. I think some WM feel that the image of BM in terms of sexuality makes them feel inadequate and they fear they wont match up to this. I think they feel deeply insecure about this and they therefore reject WW who have been with BM on this basis. This merely an anecdotal observation based on comments I have heard from some WM. This obviously is not the case where ALL WM are concerned but for some, it can be a signficant factor


  372. @WarrenAZ–

    If these women are educated then the critical thinking and analysis skills they acquired at university should have been enough for them to see past the “what they’re supposed to do” doctrine.

    Exactly. But I guess if you’re told something from day 1 that things are “supposed” to be a certain way, some people don’t question that. University educations don’t teach critical thinking skills like that. That should be taught at home or in the community.

    If you look at the argument of black American women who want a black man for “aesthetic ” reasons, this is something they learned from other black Americans because only black American women think that way. There is nothing “that” aesthetically superior about a black man anyway. There are eye-pleasing men in all groups. A woman shouldn’t go by how a man looks anyway. African women I knew don’t think like that and women I didn’t learn that either. I think that’s just an excuse for black American women to cling to who they’re “supposed” to want. That’s safe.

    Also I’d like to take the game of chicken that black women play with black men off the table. If there are black men who want to make noise about who black women are with then let them. I think we can hold ourselves to better standard of conduct don’t you?

    True, but we all, as black women, need to say that everywhere so that the women hear that everywhere, all the time.


  373. “They need to socialize a lot more with white men and be patient. Sooner or later, they’ll hit paydirt. After all, what do black American women have to lose at this point?”

    “I don’t think they need to ask white men anything.”

    @Jorbia
    Right. Any day now that pct of white men that marry black women will move from 0.35% to 0.40%. Any day now, white men will start picking black women first over White women, Asian women and Hispanic women.

    “I don’t think they need to ask white men anything.”

    Obviously some Black women most definitely DO need to ask white men why they are refusing to marry or cohabit with black women. It seems to be a sore point with many black women. It’s so unfair. I think every BWE woman should make it her daily duty to ask out 10 white men.

    “SG,
    You just keep repeating your ANTI-BW BS/DENIALS of REALITY and that will make it all true.

    EVERYONE can SEE that there is an epidemic of ANTI-BW BM who ONLY date/marry NON-BW because they are ANTI-BW HATERS.”

    @Laromana

    Totally ridiculous. Some people just want to feel like victims. I see now why some other commenters responded as harshly as they did.

    Writing in all caps doesn’t make an argument cogent. And I will continue to point out until it seeps into some people’s thick skulls, that in America the overwhelming majority of blacks and whites, marry, cohabit and have children within their own race.

    So the people pitching a fit about IR marriages as being somehow damaging to their own romantic chances are often just bigots, control freaks or losers that couldn’t find someone to partner with even if all IR marriage was outlawed tomorrow.

    Healthy adults don’t spend time worrying about what other people are doing or who they’re doing it with.


  374. @Shady Grady–

    Right. Any day now that pct of white men that marry black women will move from 0.35% to 0.40%Any day now, white men will start picking black women first over White women, Asian women and Hispanic women.

    I know you can’t imagine why any wm would pick a black woman over these other women and so to you, that’s unthinkable, but it’s happening more and more when black women socialize more around white men. It sounds like you’re trying to make black American women think that they can’t compete successfully against these other groups of women. I go out with white men all the time and I know dark skinned black women who do too. As I said, some of them have married wm.

    You’re reinforcing black women’s insecurities, if they listen to you. I’m glad I didn’t grow up around black men like you. Black American women need to stop listening to men like you.


  375. @Demerera

    I think some WM feel that the image of BM in terms of sexuality makes them feel inadequate and they fear they wont match up to this.

    If white men feel this way, this fear comes from not knowing much about black men, except for the myths. If white men mixed more with black women, undoubtedly some black women would get rid of myths like that for them. When you keep people separate and they don’t get a chance to mingle with a variety of people in other groups, it’s easy to feed them lies about each other. No one group of men is superior sexually. It’s all about the individual man.


  376. Honestly I cant really say it goes one way with black men dating/married to white women. I guess most NOT ALL black men feel like they can date white women vice versa now unlike 60-70 years ago. To me Black men who degrade and have a personal vendetta against black women and praise white women have alot to do with how they were raised ,how their mothers were or environment. My personal experience in highschool when it came to black men were the worst. Alot of times they dated white girls cause they wanted approval from their “friends”.My two older brothers both black and a beautiful shade of dark brown both date pale white women. They lived in a predominantly racist white suburbia since childhood. Their mother (we have the same father not mom) basically abandoned them and left them so our father took custody of them both.
    When they were in highschool all they dated was white girls since they were the majority. My eldest brother out of us three dated both black and white girls but mostly white girls in his life. His fiance is white and she is soo charming, wonderful, down to earth and she really loves my brother. My second eldest brother dates white girls only and nobody else, its his “preference” even though he said black women are “ghetto” and asian women aren’t “pretty enough”. I honestly think they try to look for a motherly type love in the arms of white women due to the fact that their mom wasn’t there but i feel like that shouldnt judge their opinions on black women in general or any other race of women, especially if they have a beautiful black sister lol. I remember this one time I was with my eldest brother in the car and we were going to the store and we drove past this black woman and her kids.
    My brother says to me “Damn look how dark she is” I turn my head so fast and said “How can you say that when half of our family including yourself is darkskin?” he didn’t have a response for that one. There is nothing wrong with interracial dating Nothing! love is love, but black men who date interracially shouldn’t go around acting like they came from the stork only and not black women.


  377. jorbia says,
    I know you can’t imagine why any wm would pick a black woman over these other women and so to you, that’s unthinkable, but it’s happening more and more when black women socialize more around white men. It sounds like you’re trying to make black American women think that they can’t compete successfully against these other groups of women. I go out with white men all the time and I know dark skinned black women who do too. As I said, some of them have married wm.

    You’re reinforcing black women’s insecurities, if they listen to you. I’m glad I didn’t grow up around black men like you. Black American women need to stop listening to men like you.

    laromana says,
    EXCELLENT responses to SG’s IGNORANT/DELUSIONAL ANTI-BW DUMBASSERIES.

    SG is just another typical POMPOUS/SELF HATING/SELF INVOLVED ANTI-BW HATER BM who thinks BW ACTUALLY CARE ENOUGH about what he thinks about them/their lives to allow it to affect their RIGHT to CHOOSE WHOEVER THEY WANT to date/marry.

    Like you, I didn’t grow up in close contact with LOSER ANTI-BW HATER BM like SG and, when it comes to how I live MY LIFE, I certainly don’t pay attention to their ANTI-BW BS.

    It’s this type of ANTI-BW HATER BM who will one day soon be “SHOCKED” to discover that they’re no longer the “flavor of the moment” to NON-BW and that BW have moved on to the type of NON-BM who (UNLIKE ANTI-BW HATER BM) DO LOVE/RESPECT BW/ARE OPEN/WILLING to seriously date/marry them.


  378. @jorbia

    It’s all about the individual man.

    True say Jorbia :-)


  379. sepultura13 said:

    “Ultimately, the only relationship I give a rat’s arse about is MY OWN – I think being happy with yourself and the one you’re with is what truly matters. If you’re a person who is overtly concerned with other people’s relationships, then you need to A) focus on your own issues with your own relationship, if you’re in one, or B) focus on your own issues within yourself so that you will be attractive to members of the opposite sex. Hating others is a major turn-off. So is being an arrogant, self-absorbed asshole.”

    *************************************

    THANK YOU – Ma’am

    There is SO MUCH SCRUMPTIOUS GOODNESS (truth) in the above comment that I think it deserves special merit and recognition.

    These words should be said or read again, and again, and again, and again until it’s burned into the psyche/mind of everyone reading this thread.

    If all men and women, regardless of race or color, DID THIS, the world would be a much saner and happier place to exist in. If more women really practiced this thought pattern and point of view they be MORE attractive, appealing and in demand.

    Maybe I’ll print/embroider these words on a nice piece of cloth, frame it and sell it as there seems to be a huge market for this simple, yet profound, advice!

    *unless there’s copyright issues – issues*
    : )))


  380. I wonder how many more of the “deluded race based misandrist feminist cult” or BWE are going to come over and spout their ish on this post!?

    Silly, deluded women. No matter how much you point out the facts to them. They’ll still cover their ears and spout the same deluded ish.


  381. @sepultura13 —

    “A) focus on your own issues with your own relationship, if you’re in one, or B) focus on your own issues within yourself so that you will be attractive to members of the opposite sex. Hating others is a major turn-off. So is being an arrogant, self-absorbed asshole.”

    This really is totally excellent!! I especially like “B” because if you make yourself attractive to the opposite sex, you will increase your options with all men.

    @Matari —

    If more women really practiced this thought pattern and point of view they be MORE attractive, appealing and in demand.

    So true. I’d better go do my workout now and work on my appeal :-)

    @Vindicator–

    They’ll still cover their ears and spout the same deluded ish

    Black American women would do wonders for themselves if they do cover their ears when negative others tell them that they can’t do normal things. Black American women have nothing to lose at this point. They might as well try-try-try.


  382. *Le sigh*

    I’m young, so I haven’t lived/experienced as much as some of you folks, but it is painfully obvious (at least to me) reading through this thread that no one seems to be listening to each other. Aside from the more extreme opinions and trolling, I think there are valid points here…

    *runs and take cover*


  383. @Bulanik

    “It’s the idea that that the white woman becomes ‘stained’ and ‘unclean’ as a result of intimate contact with a black man…she’s soiled her race and lost her rank, no better than a black.”

    It seems to me you are overthinking it. Some white people believe that white women who date other races (especially black) are pursuing men who are substandard. If they have low standards, that makes them similar to women who sleep around, who are easy – thus they are seen as sluts.


  384. @Demerera
    part, yes, I certainly agree with this but, for some it goes deeper. I think some WM feel that the image of BM in terms of sexuality makes them feel inadequate and they fear they wont match up to this. I think they feel deeply insecure about this and they therefore reject WW who have been with BM on this basis. This merely an anecdotal observation based on comments I have heard from some WM. This obviously is not the case where ALL WM are concerned but for some, it can be a signficant factor

    I think this is accurate. While racism plays a part, the real issue for white men is that they feel they CANNOT measure up to a black man sexually. In other words, their egos are bruised. For many white men, black male sexuality/masculinity is something they admire/envy and feel threatened by at the same time. It’s a double edged sword. Good when black men play sports, but not good when they date white women.


  385. Demerera,

    The reason there is visceral unease when a white father’s daughter dates a black man is because rather than seeing the black man as a passive, brainwashed puppet of “white supremacy,” black man is seen as an imperial-minded, white hating creation of “black liberation.”

    Now, put the shoe on the other foot and ask why the black father has little or no visceral unease when his daughter mixes with “white supremacy?”


  386. @Laromana, Jorbia
    It must be a constant shock to close your eyes and wish so hard that reality would go away and yet when you open them again, it’s still there.

    I didn’t insult either one of you and yet each you feel compelled to launch insults with anonymous people on an internet blog. That says something about your reading capacity, intellect and maturity level. Talk about stereotypes!!!

    I didn’t make up the stats I quoted. White men prefer to date and marry white women. Black men prefer to date and marry black women. This is not news to anyone who lives in the real world. In fact, though you might want to sit down as this may be shocking to you, black men date and marry black women much more than white men do. Amazing I know.

    But keep hope alive. You may well be able to find one of the 3 in every 1000 married white men that wants to marry a black woman. Good luck with that.
    But if you do you will no doubt find that skin tones and facial features aside men are men and the same negative personality traits that would turn off a black man will also turn off a white man. Should you find marital bliss with a man of Caucasian origin you will no doubt find that most black men won’t care. I know I won’t. It’s usually bitter deluded black women that create all sorts of ridiculous conspiracies to explain why since all of 7% of black men have married white, they can’t find someone. Losers complain about other people’s lives and what they’re doing. Winners are concerned about their own affairs.

    Now go out and there and find a white man!! We’re all pulling for you!!!!!


  387. The reason black women are so reluctant to marry white men is because of the unresolvable conflict that arises when HER culture suggests she is marrying “white supremacy” and the reality that she is almost certainly marrying a white beta male, i.e., one who is deracinated and into “abstract liberalism.”

    It is in this scenario where the black woman is suggesting submission to “white supremacy,” but ultimately the unfeminine traits that made her stray will nonetheless rear their ugly head when confronted with the reality that she almost certainly married a real weak and wimpy “white boy.”


  388. Girls, offer them buttsecks and they will marry you in a thrice! That and being a great cook! At that point, they will not give a hoot as to what you are or what you look like! This is what most men tell me! Of course I believe them,ahem.


  389. @Thordaddy:

    I hear you. I myself prefer a uber masculine, manly, robust, non-self sexualizing man. If that’s not in the cards, a hefty pay cheque will suffice!


  390. “… Black men prefer to date and marry black women. This is not news to anyone who lives in the real world. In fact, though you might want to sit down as this may be shocking to you, black men date and marry black women much more than white men do. Amazing I know….”

    @ Shady_Grady

    !!!!!!!!!!!!

    Sometimes the truth hurts.

    Sometimes the truth is hilarious.

    That post was HILARIOUS!


  391. jorbia says,

    “I heard that one reason why some black women don’t want to lose much weight is because they’re scared they may also lose their curvy behinds too. If they do that, then they think black men won’t want them at all.”

    no it aint about losing your butt..because even when u lose weight ur proportions tend to the stay the same. I will tell you the real reason Black women tend to be overweight.

    1. Racist Beauty Standards
    2. Emotional/Social Rejection
    3. Poor Eating Habits
    4. Poor access to health care.

    As a Black woman who has always been curvy (and I do mean curvy not obese), I can tell you if you’re built thicker doesn’t matter how much weight you lose, you’re always going to be shaped the same, just smaller…unless of
    course you’re emaciated and anorexic

    A common complaint I hear from Bm who won’t date Black women is that we’re all fat…it’s true Black women in America tend to be more overweight and it’s a problem, but Americans in general are overweight. I just saw a bunch of overweight white women at the mall today…but let me get into why more Black women may struggle with obesity…


  392. 1. Racist Beauty Standards

    I’m a Black woman with the stereotypical Black woman body type, round behind, thick thighs, hips and smaller waist (abagond knows what I look like)

    When I was growing up in my predominately white school, most of the girls were thin, straight up and down, long hair with little to no curves. So, I always felt like the fat girl in the class. Even when I lost weight, my butt would still stick out, my hips were still round, I thought that no matter how much weight I lost I was never good enough. I was still the wallflower at all the dances, I still never had a boyfriend, I never had a kiss until I was 22…it was pathetic.

    Now, I would notice some Black boys looking at me, but I never got asked out even if they were looking at me and the white guys sure as hell didn’t ask me out because to them i was fat.

    One time, I was trying on belts with some of the members of my singing group (i was the only black girl) and this tall blonde girl tried on a belt and it wouldn’t fit around her, so I tried it on and it fit around my waist. So, without realizing how rude it was to say this, she says to me “wait…how can it fit YOU and NOT me?!” As if just because I was built differently than her that made me fat or something…my waist was smaller than hers, but my bottom was bigger. Those were the type of comments i had to deal with my whole life, the constant rejection. I really thought there was something wrong with my body because I didn’t fit in with the other girls who were built straighter.

    So what did I do, I got so frustrated and upset that I would binge eat to the point that it hurt my stomach and I ended up gaining 20-30lbs to the point where I really was overweight and then I really wouldn’t be getting any attention. Because from my perspective, it felt as if no matter what I did, even when I was at a healthy weight…I still wasn’t good enough, so I might as well just go all out and get fat if the only comfort I can find is in a chicken box or a hamburger so be it.

    So it was the racist beauty standards and feeling like I could never measure up that drove me to eat and eat. I think that’s the case with a lot of Black women. Of course now I know that I actually had a very nice shape and I am just built thicker, no matter how thin I am, I will always be shaped that way, so now I’ve learned to accept it, but it’s still hard. I imagine a lot of Black women probably feel this way.


  393. 2. Emotional rejection is another reason that many black women are overweight, my previous comment already addressed this but when society tells you constantly that you’re not the ideal and you need to look as close as white to possible to be considered beautiful that takes a toll on your self esteem and a lot of Black women will eat to make up for the emotional rejection.

    3&4: These are self-explanatory if you grow up without having a mother or father around to teach you how to eat healthily you’re going to develop poor eating habits. Since Black women are more likely to be single mothers, it’s more likely that the children will be relying on themselves for food because mom is working 2 jobs to put food on the table, so they come home and grab some mcdonald’s and call it a night.

    If you compare the predominately black areas to the predominately white areas, its clear that fast food restaurants have no problem setting up shop in black areas, but white areas are filled with whole foods, gourmet grocers, bally total fitness, brick bodies and gold gyms…now if you’re surrounded by food deserts vs. surrounded by organic grocery stores and gyms…who is more likely to be obese…

    there is your answer right there. So it annoys me when some of these Black men want to say Black women are fat that’s why we don’t date them when they don’t understand the reason WHY there is such a disparity when it comes to obesity. It’s not just as simple as being lazy. Granted I do think more Black women need to take care of their health and learn to eat better because it will improve quality of life overall, but don’t stigmatize Black women and make them feel like it’s all their fault, when it’s not.

    and also it’s funny because a lot of the black men who say they hate fat black women and that’s why they date ww…too many fat sistas end up with fat white women anyway…even srgtwilliepete was with a fat white woman at one point, he said so in one of his videos…she gave him a blow job…

    so I think its complete nonsense to compare ww to bw in that respect…yes there are obese Black women in America, yes we need to address the issue, but stop stigmatizing black women because of this.


  394. OH MY FIRST COMMENT GOT THROWN TO MODERATION! That’s so annoying why is it going to moderation?


  395. @Shady Grady–

    “… Black men prefer to date and marry black women.

    This must have something to do with why such a huge percentage of black American women are not married. . Black men may be preferring but they’re not marrying them. But hope springs eternal. Lots of black women will read this and continuing waiting.

    This is not news to anyone who lives in the real world.

    It is news to me since black men are barely marrying black women.

    black men date and marry black women much more than white men do. Amazing I know….”

    That’s not saying much, though. Anyone would actually expect that the men of a woman’s group would marry them much more. You really have low expectations for black men if you consider this an accomplishment.


  396. abagond did a post on why so few black men marry black women


  397. i personally think probably more than 42% of black women have never married i don’t know any black women between the ages of 25-40 who are married, all the ones i know are older, like the baby boomer generation after that I really only know of one Black woman who is of childbearing age who is happily married…


  398. It is in this scenario where the black woman is suggesting submission to “white supremacy,”

    I’ll just make this one comment to you. When I’m out with a white guy, I’m not out with “white supremacy.” That’s not on my mind because I’m out with just one man. So if that’s in your head, so be it.

    but ultimately the unfeminine traits that made her stray will nonetheless rear their ugly head when confronted with the reality that she almost certainly married a real weak and wimpy “white boy.”

    I’ve never had any complaints from white or black men about my feminine traits. You really shouldn’t take it upon yourself to be concerned about what a black woman’s husband is like. If she’s happy with him, that’s what she wants.


  399. @jorbia

    If black men don’t get to use the “day 1″ excuse then black women can’t have it either. Black women finding black men physically appealing doesn’t mean there is a lack of sophistication on their part.

    But if you wanted to explore the influence of the media on what we find attractive in the opposite sex, a good opening question could be; Is the attraction black women have to black men influenced by the media? We assume that the attraction to the opposite sex in a group is natural but can this be proven in a society with higher saturation? Just something to think about.

    As far as African women and the lower priority they place on appearance, that is a question of cultural adhesion. Culture, from what I’ve seen/read/studied, takes a back seat when the economy and the law provide the proper protections. So African women, just like any other group of women on the planet will place a higher priority on the physical appearance of a man if they have the opportunity to do so. (if you want to discuss this on the Open Thread let me know. I think it would be fun.

    College can and does introduce a few different formulas for critical thinking and application. Most people will not get this at home because the parents are still instilling values. These values can’t be safely challenged in an unprotected environment (like the home) so the solution is the classroom, where ideas can be discussed and mediated by someone with relative authority and objectivity.


  400. @ warrenAZ
    why would you not be attracted to the women who cared,nurtured and supported and stood by you? it doesn’t make sense…


  401. @Peanut

    My biology classes etc….are somewhat behind me but if I remember correctly from a biological/genetic perspective we actually have a innate desire to mate or breed with those who are different from us so as to avoid the whole “inbreeding” thing on a ethnic scale.

    Basically if all you ever do is mate with the in-group eventually it ends up with out enough genetic variation to help it stay healthy or strong and you start having problems like hill people or cheetah’s.

    That of course clashes with tribalism/nationalism etc….and the survival instinct that tells us to stay away from dangerous/unknown places to keep our odds of staying alive up.

    So in reality except for racism etc…., everybody would have a higher desire to mate with “the other” whichever other that might be than their own in-group.

    Think about the classic “tall, dark, stranger” for romance books or movies.


  402. “My biology classes etc….are somewhat behind me but if I remember correctly from a biological/genetic perspective we actually have a innate desire to mate or breed with those who are different from us so as to avoid the whole “inbreeding” thing on a ethnic scale.”

    let’s not use that excuse when we all know black people are as genetically dissimilar as any other group…please…


  403. @Peanut

    Are you saying black people are as genetically dissimiliar from one another as each generally ethnicity is to one another?


  404. @leigh Yes, I do feel bad. Because you seem like a sensitive nice person and my mom always told me to respect women like you NO MATTER WHAT RACE YOU ARE> believe it or not I am a nice person at heart. Just becuase I disagree with your views doesn’t mean you should hate me. OK. SO maybe I misread it. My bad, You’re right. I’m wrong. See the big bad Italian white man can be humble.


  405. @ Peanut
    You proposed a rhetorical question. But what’s interesting about it is how you painted a maternal image instead of a sexual or romantic one. This might be how you see yourself as black woman and how you view black men, like you see them as children.


  406. Sometimes Abagond I wish you had a delete button, I don’t really think Leigh hates me that came out wrong. I just think maybe conflicting views make Yankee vs. Red Sox thinking here. We are all people. I don’t think you are a Stormfront like site. I think you are a smart guy, and this is very thought provoking material that you do. If you were a hateful stormfront black style I wouldn’t be here. I just feel the white point of view is important here. Think about it how boring would it be without it?


  407. Maybe I travel in the wrong circles, but most black guys I know who prefer white women over black women have one thing in common: they are whitewashed. Going with white women is not the only “white” thing about them. Most spent an important part of their early years living in white neighbourhoods. The same, by the way, is true of most Chinese American women who mainly go for white men. And, from what I understand, the same is true of Sergeant Willie Pete and the blogger who runs the White Goddess blog.


  408. Willie Pete is a barrel of contradictions. He still wants to hold on to the proud to be black mindset as long as you are a black MAN. I don’t know why all of his followers say “he speaks the absolute truth” when there is more holes in his arguments than Swiss cheese.


  409. And if you are from the inner city he pegs you as a thug black who is a different mindset than him. Absolute crud


  410. @ WarrenAz

    you know what i’m not gonna let you turn me into an angry black woman. If black men that I’m talking about are not dating/marrying or otherwise having social interactions with them how could I bring up sexual stuff if they’re not doing anything sexual with Black women…I brought up care and support because all black men receive care and support from Black women in some way, even when they are dating interacially…

    and no i do not see Black men as children…I see them as men…albeit there are SOME screwed up ones who ACT like children…but do I see most black men as children NO!


  411. I think you understand what I’m saying it’s always Black women running after Black men and trying to protect them even when some Black men turn their backs on Black women…Black women are very loyal to Black men, even if the Black man doesn’t date a black woman, wouldn’t touch a black woman, you can always find some black women running behind their azz trying to get their attention.


  412. @ abagond,

    well then how do you explain white washed Black women who grew up in all white environments SUCH AS MYSELF who still have a strong preference for black men? How can you explain that…shouldn’t they be just as white washed as the Black men…but most of the Black women that I know of who grew up in mostly white environments ironically tend to gravitate to Black men…wat’s up with that? That has been my personal experience…any explanation?


  413. @ WarrenZ

    and also I’ve never had a Black man sexual partner because I’ve not yet had intercourse…I’ve been sexual with a man who was Black, but we never had sex, so why would I bring that up when I’ve never slept with a Black man…of course I’m going to relate better to caring/supporting black men in a non-sexual way…


  414. oh but when i have sex with a black man i’ll let you know how it was, i’ll blog about it will that make you feel better…? Will you take my opinion more seriously then?…does that make you feel better?


  415. In my opinion, there is most certainly something “off” about a person who wakes up one day and magically dislikes the women of his race…when historically and in the present day it has always been Black women standing by Black men. I find it


  416. and do not tell me that all of these men had bad mothers because I know most of the Black men that I know of who date out exclusively had great mothers and loved and adored them…even that fool on the Vanessa Feltz show loved his mother, srgtwillipete loved his mother and adored his grandmother…it’s not just a mommy issue there’s more to it than that…


  417. @peanut are you more mad at the black guys who have long term relationships with these girls or just the casual relationships that seem to happen for the wrong reasons? If its the latter then thats not the type of man you should want anyway no matter who the guy or girl is basicly playing the field anyway. In that case the race of the people involved doesn’t matter because there are plenty of white men who play women as well. Maybe they are playing more WHITE women on average but who cares they are dogs too.
    You wouldn’t want those WHITE men either. Maybe it’s easy for me to judge because I’m married. But it seems like women and men are looking for people for the wrong reasons.


  418. @Peanut
    Fascinating! Nothing in my comment implies an anger on your part since a maternal figure is viewed as reserved, asexual, and long suffering but you still saw anger, even bitterness in that figure.

    When I use term “sexual”, I’m not talking about the act of sex but more of the difference between the affection a man has for his mother and the affection he has for the woman/women he is attracted to. I also added the term “romantic” to illustrate this. Men don’t judge their mothers by their looks but by their actions. Men judge women who aren’t their mothers (or family) by their appearance, at least initially. So again you view the relationship between black women and black men as maternal and unromantic. You reinforced this by using the unconditional and nonreciprocating love a mother has for her son here:

    “it’s always Black women running after Black men and trying to protect them even when some Black men turn their backs on Black women…Black women are very loyal to Black men, even if the Black man doesn’t date a black woman, wouldn’t touch a black woman, you can always find some black women running behind their azz trying to get their attention.”

    Disclosing the intimate details of your sexual experience isn’t really necessary for the discussion and you aren’t obligated to do so in the future.


  419. @ Warren Z

    “But if you wanted to explore the influence of the media on what we find attractive in the opposite sex, a good opening question could be; Is the attraction black women have to black men influenced by the media?”

    I think that ridiculous Black women were attracted to Black men WAAAY before the media starting pimping them for the world to see. We were attracted to Black men back when they were singing zip-a-dee do- dah and playing Shirley Temples old Uncle Moze…


  420. well I’m offended that you would imply that Black women are asexual…that’s offensive to me that’s like saying we’re mammies to Black men and YOU KNOW that wasn’t what I meant OF COURSE sex/romance is part of it…but like YOU just said…you can have sex/romance with anyone right…but there’s only one group ONE GROUP on this planet that has been loyal to Black MEN…IF YOU HAD TO PICK ONE GROUP IT FOR SURE WOULD NOT BE WHITE MEN, IT WOULDN’T BE WHITE WOMEN…IT WOULD BE BLACK WOMEN! PERIOD!

    I’m offended by your comment.


  421. and I can talk about my sex-life as much as I want to…if I feel like it.


  422. I was an innocent happy Black girl before the world corrupted me before I started hearing all this hateful stuff from some brainwashed Black men, I’ve been destroyed emotionally…these type of people have KILLED any sense of innocence or optimism that I had as a Black woman. I resent that because people just plop you into a box and then you become what they want you to be… and it upsets me that people don’t see how words can hurt people.


  423. and you know what SOME Black men seem to confuse Black women’s loyalty to them with Black women being mammies to them and that is why your comment set me off.

    Black women are not MAMMIES to Black men, Black women support and care for Black men, but Black women also deserve support and care in return and that’s what differentiates a mammy from a partner and ally. We have historically always have been allies to Black men, in the present day we are still supporting Black men, but it seems like with SOME Black men (these days), the support and care is not reciprocated.

    Black women are not asexual mammies to Black men..


  424. and i’m sick and tired of Black men who don’t agree with the knucklehead brainwashed Black men being silent and sitting back while Black women’s image is dragged through the mud and not saying or doing anything…


  425. Black women seem to be attracted to Black. I know I’m attracted to Black men, but it seems like some Black men aren’t really attracted to Black women or why would so many Black men keep supporting magazines that don’t show any Black women or that they’re so light you can’t even really tell that they’re black and the red tails nonsense…I mean it’s ridiculous.

    Do Black men understand how hurtful and humiliating that is to a woman to be rejected that way…? What does that say to young Black girls who are already struggling for acceptance now to feel rejected by a group that’s supposed to be on their side. That’s hurtful.


  426. but i really don’t care, people are just going to run us into the ground…I’m done trying to explain to people how it feels to me as Black woman. I’m done, I wash my hands. it’s too hard.


  427. and no one on this blog comforts the Black women who are upset on here, no one has any productive or encouraging responses to give even on this blog no one cares about Black women’s feelings.

    damn, I guess I better just forget about waiting until marriage to have sex cuz it seems like Black men are not into marrying Black women anymore anyway…I better get mine while I still can…cuz the way things are going these days…it seems not enough Black men even care about Black women.


  428. @Peanut
    if you’re offended you did it to yourself. I don’t think you are actually offended though, just embarrassed at the picture you painted. But you’re responsible for it and everything thought you’ve had since your “corruption” at the hands of “the world”.

    You are more than welcome to discuss your sex life but don’t assume you have to for my benefit. Since it’s not relevant to subject or of no personal interest to me, I don’t know why you’d bother.

    In my statement about the media I said “in a society with higher saturation” so I’m putting the question in the present context. Now can you prove that what black women consider to be an attractive black man now is the same as it was before the mid-90’s? What did black women consider to be a good looking black man in the 50’s? Duke Ellington was seen as one of the most attractive negro men of his time. So was Smoky Robinson and Max Juilen. Why?


  429. “….damn, I guess I better just forget about waiting until marriage to have sex cuz it seems like Black men are not into marrying Black women anymore anyway.”
    ——————————————————————————————————————–

    @Peanut

    I’ve read a few of your comments on this topic. I would say wait until you meet that special someone. No point wasting your jewels on a fool or fools who do not care about you.

    I have spoken to many black women who would never go out with white men, not ever and other combinations of people who stick to their own as well.

    I think these race discussions are good because they help you to hear the opinions of other people on the topic of race and race relations.

    The way I view this topic of mixed relationships is basically each to his or her own. I’m not concerned about what people want to do with their life, as long as the person you are with loves you and cares about you, respects and values you, that is what counts above all else.

    Of course, some people seem to want to go out with certain types of people because they are looking for a trophy. Relationships are about love, care, mutual respect, not about having a trophy or to get ahead.

    Some black men have gone out with white women historically in the past in order to get ahead with their career.


  430. @ ShadyGrady from 21:52:07 (had typed this before work) – I think you are overlooking/ignoring a major fundamental point of why the issue of BM/WW relationships are a sore spot for many black women. Even if the majority of black men marry black women, the ones who don’t are very disproportional to the percent of black women who marry interracially. Additionally, far too many of the black men who marry interracially justify their “preference” by bashing black women. I know you think we should just let it roll off our shoulders – because why would we want them anyway – but I think you fail to realize that there seems to be a “silent majority” of black men who do not DEFEND us from these attacks. While there is a MINORITY of black men who actually actively and routinely do this, they are in many ways echoing the very hostile, negative anti-black woman rhetoric of society at large – and we are often times the ONLY people speaking out in our defense (and get to be labeled “angry” for being upset, and thus our emotions and reasons thoroughly and immediately invalidated) at something I would think ANYONE would be angry at if such vitriol was directed at them. If such sentiments were directed at white women, there would be no end to the white man’s rage and quest to stop it as I remarked on earlier. But even though the physical shackles and separation from us have been removed for well over a hundred years, we have yet to see anything approaching that level of protection from black men – especially enough to effectively muzzle the impact of those minority of vocal anti-BW men. Burke’s saying “all that is required for evil to prosper is for good people to do nothing” is applicable to this situation. Why are black women not rigorously, immediately, and violently defended and protected by black men against these continued assaults on our dignity like white men do for their women?

    As for the idea that we should jut continue our lives as “healthy adults who don’t spend time worrying about what other people are doing or who they’re doing it with” – again, if we lived in a vacuum society where nothing someone did or said affected anyone else, that certainly would be a reasonable approach to take. I’m not someone who stays awake at night thinking of all the black men currently in bed with non-black women. However, I will not pretend like the OPINIONS of some of these men, and the lack of black men who allegedly don’t share those opinions yet never seem to take a stand against them, do not and should not matter to me as a black woman existing in a society with black men. Just because I see a brother with a dark-skinned woman on his arm doesn’t mean that he can’t agree with the sentiments expressed by BW-hating black men. The misogyny in black men runs extremely high, and I only need to look at the rates of domestic violence – both fatal and non-fatal – to support me on this. The aspect of black men dating white women is a symptom of an underlying illness. I think your attempts to minimize this impact or even recognize the importance it on the macro scale are somewhat intellectually dishonest.


  431. WarrenAz,

    “if you’re offended you did it to yourself. I don’t think you are actually offended though, just embarrassed at the picture you painted. But you’re responsible for it and everything thought you’ve had since your “corruption” at the hands of “the world”.

    I didn’t do anything you DID that by bringing up the mammy I never said anything initially about that YOU PROJECTED THE MAMMY IMAGE ONTO BLACK WOMEN DON’T EVEN TRY TO PUT THIS BACK ON ME!

    you’re comments are completely disrespectful as far as I’m concerned…how dare you IMPOSE YOUR views onto me I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT BLACK MEN BEING CHILDREN, YOU SAID THAT, YOU DID THAT TO DETRACT AWAY FROM THE MAIN POINT OF MY POST, WHICH WAS THAT [SOME] BLACK MEN JUST DO NOT RESPECT BLACK WOMEN DESPITE THE SUPPORT WE GIVE TO THEM! YOU DIDN’T ADDRESS THAT AT ALL YOU JUST DERAILED WITH YOUR STUPID FALSE ASSUMPTION ABOUT MY SEXUALITY AND BY PROJECTING THE MATERNAL IMAGE ONTO BLACK WOMEN AS IF WE’RE ALL MAMMIES FOR BLACK MEN WHO ARE SUPPOSED TO SLAVE AWAY CONSTANTLY!!!

    YOUR COMMENTS ARE INSENSITIVE AND RUDE!


  432. BASED OFF OF YOUR COMMENTS YOU ARE PROBABLY THE TYPE OF PERSON I’M TALKING ABOUT AND YOU’RE PART OF THE REASON THAT BLACK WOMEN ARE SH*TTED ON AN INTERNATIONAL SCALE!!!


  433. HOW DARE YOU PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH TO DETRACT AWAY FROM POINTS AND THEN INSULT ME AND NOT EVEN CARE ABOUT ANY OF MY POINTS!


  434. Happiness,

    “I’ve read a few of your comments on this topic. I would say wait until you meet that special someone. No point wasting your jewels on a fool or fools who do not care about you.”

    man..F*CK THAT, i’m sick of waiting for some non-existent “special man!” But thank you for your support…might as well get mine, no one cares about Black women anyway…they never have!


  435. thank you happiness for your comments and for caring about what I said, even if you don’t agree. But i really don’t think I can wait…people don’t marry Black women like they used to…I can’t wait for ever and I know to some people Black women are mammies…so…it’s not my lot in life to be celibate forever, that’s not me, I’m not an asexual mammy slave.


  436. **Please excuse typos and missing words, my keyboard sucks


  437. @ Warren Z,

    I’m sorry I flew off the handle. But I never said Black men were children, you twisted my words around and interpreted the way you wanted to and then it seemed like you put a stereotype on Black women and you know it’s not true.


  438. and above all it seemed like you didn’t even care about the main point of my post, which was that It seems like TO ME some Black men (and people in general) do not value Black women and that’s what I’ve been saying all along and people always want to derail and make it about something else. you don’t have to agree, but please do not put words into my mouth…and maybe I overreacted a bit, but I was offended because I felt like you were calling me a mammy.


  439. and you knew I was upset, but you kept going on and on about this and that…I don’t think that’s very insensitive. I wouldn’t keep going on and on when I knew someone was upset about something.


  440. Suzy says, “I think you are overlooking/ignoring a major fundamental point of why the issue of BM/WW relationships are a sore spot for many black women. Even if the majority of black men marry black women, the ones who don’t are very disproportional to the percent of black women who marry interracially. Additionally, far too many of the black men who marry interracially justify their “preference” by bashing black women. I know you think we should just let it roll off our shoulders – because why would we want them anyway – but I think you fail to realize that there seems to be a “silent majority” of black men who do not DEFEND us from these attacks.”

    exactly Suzy…exactly we’re supposed to be “strong black women” and hide our feelings about it…well we have a right to speak out just the same as anyone especially when we’re being dumped on constantly


  441. @Peanut

    I imposed nothing, just giving my interpretation of your comment. I’m not subject to your level of comfort though. My comments aren’t rude, they just make you uncomfortable. You haven’t been called a name, no abusive language has been used, and I haven’t posted anything that could be viewed as racist. And again you disclosed the intimate details of your sex life and I still haven’t made any assumptions about your sexuality, I just pointed out that it was unnecessary because it has no bearing on the discussion. You’re not a victim here so why take on that position?

    Anywho, I don’t have to addressed the perception of loyalty in an earlier post. Repeating it isn’t necessary; Wed 1 Feb 2012 at 14:36:52.

    I still stand by what I said about your view of how black women and black men relate to each other. You believe black women should be rewarded for voluntarily supporting black men. (I’d personally like to know what black women are doing to support black men these days.) But its just like a mother voluntarily has children but wants a token of appreciation from them. I could take it step further and say you’re riding another black woman’s coat tails, more specifically his mother’s, to project a feeling of guilt onto black men so that they won’t choose black women like other men choose women but out of pure racial obligation. That could be seen as oppressive manipulation.


  442. happiness,

    “I’ve read a few of your comments on this topic. I would say wait until you meet that special someone. No point wasting your jewels on a fool or fools who do not care about you.”

    also, Black women aren’t valued enough to marry. we’re supposed to be baby mamas and that’s it. In my mother’s and grandmothers era it was easier to be celibate until marriage because Black women and Black men actually got married at decent ages.

    These days…it doesn’t work like that. I always thought I’d wait until marriage, but i see some Black women in their late 30s/early 40s who were raised just like me to wait until marriage and be religious, be respectable and you know where a lot of those girls are now in their late 30s nearly in their 40 still not single and some still virgins and one even getting AI. None of them are ugly, none are obese, all very intelligent, but because they waited around for “that special guy” to come and marry them…he never came and look where it got them. That won’t be me. If i’m gonna out unmarried at least I would like to at least experience intercourse. I can’t be expected to wait for some guy to materialize and be celibate until I’m 39 years old…Black women aren’t valued enough in this society for men to want to marry, so I might as well get some birth control and just enjoy myself.


  443. @Peanut

    One more thing and I’ll have to put this up later. I like being a black woman. I don’t need black men to like it or the media to validate it. I don’t support black men because they should be treated like men, I don’t owe them anything, they owe me nothing, and I’m not going to take credit for the support individual black women give to the men in their lives. Until you can say the same without condition, addendum, or disclaimer you’re more a part of the problem than I am.

    Good Night.


  444. well i’m sorry, but I don’t have to take emotional abuse from people and I’m not going to let people degrade and drag my name through the mud. I’m not a “strong black woman,” who has to hide her feelings or emotions and face ostracism..if that makes me a “problem,” fine.

    but I think a big part of the problem is people not acknowledging their mistreatment of Black women (and there are black women won’t acknowledge it either and to me they’re a part of the problem as well)


  445. you’re entitled to your opinion and I’m entitled to mine. I’m not riding anybody’s coat tail.


  446. because i’m speaking about MY EXPERIENCE and what I HAVE SEEN…not someone else why would I need to ride someone’s coat tail…? I said I was talking about my experience.


  447. and you know what I think is oppressive manipulation people ignoring the discrimination and mistreatment that Black women experience at the hands of brainwashed black men and non-black men and people in general. I think that’s oppressive manipulation.


  448. and I’m not going to hide my feelings or lie and say I don’t see some inequality here because I do and reality and statistics show that inequality and I’m not going to stop expressing my feelings because of that. I’ve been quiet my whole life, not anymore.


  449. @Suzy

    “Even if the majority of black men marry black women, the ones who don’t are very disproportional to the percent of black women who marry interracially.”

    Exactly. And this is the real sore spot as I and others have mentioned. It is why on this post and others like it, black women who proudly boast of dating interracially still feel entitled and obligated to lambast black men who do the same. Total hypocrisy. If more white men found black women attractive enough to marry then we wouldn’t have the jealous vitriol that oozes out of some black women when the subject comes up. I don’t know what to tell you. Evidently white women find black men more attractive for dating/marriage than white men find black women. That is hardly the fault of black men. That said, though in general whites and blacks shun marriage to each other by massive margins.

    “If such sentiments were directed at white women, there would be no end to the white man’s rage and quest to stop it as I remarked on earlier.”

    I’m going to guess you don’t spend a lot of time at certain MRA sites or other conservative places. There are tons of white men who bash white women all day, every day. The only difference is that most of them like black women even less. If you stayed in those places you might come to believe that most white men hated white women, as some have stated here with races altered. That would be wrong because you’d be allowing the words of a small minority to speak for the majority. There are a few BWE sites that run black men down every chance they get. Should black women all feel compelled to come out against them every day to satisfy the hurt feelings of a some black man? Of course not.


  450. @Suzy

    “Just because I see a brother with a dark-skinned woman on his arm doesn’t mean that he can’t agree with the sentiments expressed by BW-hating black men….The aspect of black men dating white women is a symptom of an underlying illness. I think your attempts to minimize this impact or even recognize the importance it on the macro scale are somewhat intellectually dishonest.”

    Amazing. So much wrong in a few short sentences.
    So never mind that you see a black man with a “dark-skinned woman” (she can’t be a light sister huh??). You KNOW that he hates black women. WOW.

    And black men dating white women have underlying illness? OK. Because apparently two people could never fall in love or maybe just in lust like any other people on the planet. Does a white man dating a black woman by definition suffer from underlying illness or does that just apply to BM/WW? Because the woman’s melanin level is too low for you (although you’re not involved in their relationship) that means the man is sick. Hmm.

    Well he may well be. I don’t say no to that. But he may have found someone who just happens to fit his needs. The woman may have found a man who shares her goals. There are a million and one reasons that people come together and none of them are anyone else’s business. It is I dare say somewhat presumptuous and intellectually dishonest to pretend we know what’s going on in someone else’s life and think we can run their life better than they can.

    There is something wrong with the mentality of people who look at overwhelming numbers of monochrome partnerships, see a handful of interracial ones, and lose their religion. It’s about poor self-image and trying to control other people.

    It is nothing but pure self-interest that is on display throughout the comments as black women attempt to marginalize and insult any black man who displays a preference for anyone lighter than say Jennifer Hudson. EVERY group (BM/WM/WW/etc does it. It is not particular to black women. People always try to use guilt, shame and fear to limit “their” opposite’s choices while appealing to freedom and openness to maximize their own.


  451. and maybe I’m over reacting and being melodramatic to an extent, but i really can’t help the way I feel WarrenAz and I DO feel Black men owe respect to Black women simply because we are in a position in society where we’re oppressed…we’re supposed to be a team and supporting each other…no one else is going to…for some people maybe they don’t care about that…but I do.

    Black women do a lot of to support Black men TODAY. I know when I was in class, it was always ME or another Black woman who spoke up when someone stereotyped a Black man or when people would leave Black men out of history in my classes. Like when we covered our WW2 unit, I was always the one who would speak up and make sure that people knew that Black men fought in WW2 as well because my grandfather/great uncles were vets. It was important TO ME for people to understand that Black men had a place in history as well.

    It was always Black women/girls OF TODAY who stood by and comforted Black men when they would come into our club meetings upset because a cop pulled them over and we were really the only ones who could understand what that felt like, it wasn’t the white students/teachers who cared because they didn’t go through it…but we cared because those could have been our brothers, our fathers…our lovers…so we cared and spoke up for them.

    It is always Black women (where I’m from) who are rallying to end the mass incarceration of black men for non-violent offenses and it was Black women organizations at my University who passed out petitions and pamphlets about mass incarceration of Bm. It was a black woman who wrote the book the new jim crow which discusses that and many Black women have supported and read her book because it affects us because the bm who she’s talking about could be anyone that we knew.

    I’ve always felt a connection to Black men and I’ve always stood up for them whenever i could SO I’M SORRY, if I feel that I AS A BLACK WOMAN deserve some dignity and respect in return.

    I can’t change how I feel and if that makes me a problem so be it. It may be easy FOR SOME PEOPLE to brush this off, but it’s not for me because I value the relationships and cultures between Black people and I would LIKE to SEE both Black men and BLACK WOMEN valued, but it seems like a lot of people (including some black women) don’t care about Black women.

    And race relationships matter as long as we’re living in a white supremacist culture I cannot sit back QUIETLY while SOME Black men destroy the image of the Black community by degrading the women WHO YES have overwhelmingly STOOD BY AND SUPPORTED THEM and I won’t change my opinion on that and if thats OPPRESSIVE MANIPULATION then so be it.

    I think what’s truly oppressive and criminal is the mistreatment that people seem to ignore it’s completely wrong to mistreat Black women the way we’re being mistreated and stereotype us and then on top of that ignore the way many Black women feel about being mistreated and try and put a black woman down for expressing her feelings THAT’S OPPRESSIVE MANIPULATION TO ME.

    but good morning/good night.


  452. but maybe i should just jump on the bandwagon and stop caring about what Black men go through. Stop signing the petitions, stop supporting the Black men organizations/fraternities, stop speaking up when people stereotype Black men and drag their names through the dirt (no one speaks up for us), stop caring when a Black man get followed around a store, stop caring when the woman at the front desk won’t let a Black man into the building because he’s wearing a hoodie and she thinks he looks like a criminal…stop complaining to management and siding with Black men when they feel they’ve been discriminated against, stop donating money to Black men organizations. Just stop because that would be the non-oppressive thing to do.

    maybe I should just hop on the swirl bandwagon and open up to all men…lol…literally… Latino men seem to like me…but of course i wouldn’t discount Black men entirely no I wouldn’t be like the brainwashed Black men and shut Black men out completely.


  453. Ah you wacky African-Americans.

    @Suzy

    Burke’s saying “all that is required for evil to prosper is for good people to do nothing” is applicable to this situation.

    Though attributed to Edmund Burke, he did not actually say that. This is what he said:

    when bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle

    Why are black women not rigorously, immediately, and violently defended and protected by black men against these continued assaults on our dignity like white men do for their women?

    Is that a joke? Surely you jest. This is 2012, not 1112, chivalry’s dead, and Romanticism isn’t coming back. White men protecting white women, what a joke.

    Sex Trafficking, Gonzo porn (pioneered the term “hatefuc|<"), Domestic abuse, hook-up sex culture in colleges, the very existence of Eminem, chicks going out on "slutwalks" because police dissed them?

    And don't even trying to bring up lynching. Protecting pu$$y is different from protecting women. The only white man I can think of "protecting" white women is Robert Jensen, and he's a little pu$$y.

    Apparently, in your mind, the Tulsa Riots, Rosewood, the Civil Rights movement, Latasha Harlins, and that whole Kanazawa incident just went past you. Hell, you are on a blog owned by a black man who consistently defends black women.

    In case you don’t know who Latasha Harlins is:

    You women are real funny. Black men are supposed to be able to protect black women, as if they have same level of power, and ability to bend the law as white men can, when white men don’t even protect their own women. Where exactly are these examples of white men defending their women’s dignity?


  454. @ Shady_Grady and the rest of the fellas,

    Who’s your favorite PAWG (Phat ass white girl)? It doesn’t have to be porn.

    My list goes:

    Sara Jay (yes I know she looks like the offspring a Ferengi and Lisa Lampanelli, leave me alone.)
    Trish Stratus
    Kelly Divine
    Ice T’s wife Coco
    Jayonna Fabro
    Tiffany Rayne


  455. @ Bulanik

    “Could you tell me how it is overthought?
    (Just in the context of black men and white women, mind you.)”

    The idea that the women are unclean, tainted doesn’t really come up. Some white men believe that white women who date black men have low standards, because they are accepting men who are seen as inferior. In most cases it’s that simple. From my experience, those who take it to the next level and believe the women are damaged in some way turn out to be either hardcore white supremacists/separatists or… some black men (black supremacists?) who believe that the women are ostracized because white men think they aren’t as good in bed as black men.


  456. @ Shady Grady:

    “Exactly. And this is the real sore spot as I and others have mentioned. It is why on this post and others like it, black women who proudly boast of dating interracially still feel entitled and obligated to lambast black men who do the same. Total hypocrisy. If more white men found black women attractive enough to marry then we wouldn’t have the jealous vitriol that oozes out of some black women when the subject comes up. I don’t know what to tell you. Evidently white women find black men more attractive for dating/marriage than white men find black women. That is hardly the fault of black men. That said, though in general whites and blacks shun marriage to each other by massive margins.”

    Let’s take this line “If more white men found black women attractive enough to marry then we wouldn’t have the jealous vitriol that oozes out of some black women when the subject comes up”… because you are exactly proving my point that you are pretending you are missing. What causes someone… men in particular… to be attracted to women? By and large, their physical appearance. Not saying that it’s the only factor, but certainly the primary factor that encourages most men to develop an interest in approaching a woman. If white women are heralded in colonialized nations across the world as the most desirable, the most feminine, the most valuable… does it not follow that this can and does influence the skewed ratios of BM/non-BW vs. BW/non-BM relationships? And please show me exactly where I blamed BM for WW finding BM more attractive than its inverse gendered pairing. My main and consistent point regarding BM has been in their lack of protecting BW when it comes to attacks in our society against BW, and this coupled with the rate at which they “date out” provides what I think is a reasonable cause for BW to have some personal animosity regarding this pairing, REGARDLESS of whether it is our business or involves us directly or WHATEVER.

    “If such sentiments were directed at white women, there would be no end to the white man’s rage and quest to stop it as I remarked on earlier.”
    “I’m going to guess you don’t spend a lot of time at certain MRA sites or other conservative places. There are tons of white men who bash white women all day, every day. The only difference is that most of them like black women even less. If you stayed in those places you might come to believe that most white men hated white women, as some have stated here with races altered. That would be wrong because you’d be allowing the words of a small minority to speak for the majority. There are a few BWE sites that run black men down every chance they get. Should black women all feel compelled to come out against them every day to satisfy the hurt feelings of a some black man? Of course not.”

    Congrats on completely missing the point. Misogyny is deep in men of all races. I don’t think I needed to point that out because I never stated anywhere that only black men hold animosity towards the women of their race. But you know, it sure is funny that regardless of these white men bashing white women, they don’t do so publicly (i.e. on TV/interviews/songs-popular music and culture/magazines/etc., etc., etc.)…. nor has it caused them to “date out” at the rate of black men. So I fail to see how any of this disproved anything I have written. You have also further proved my point by saying that it is a small minority of white men bashing white women, while the MAJORITY, accompanied by white privilege of holding so much power in society at large, do LOUDLY and CONSISTENTLY and IMMEDIATELY come to white females’ defense they they even perceive that their superiority/safety/etc. is being attacked. Or do you also deny the existence of the “missing white woman” syndrome?”


  457. @ Satanforce – I will not engage with you. You are irrationally hostile, overly prone to personal attacks and it’s really a complete waste of my time. Cheers.


  458. @Peanut–

    but maybe i should just jump on the bandwagon and stop caring about what Black men go through. Stop signing the petitions, stop supporting the Black men organizations/fraternities, stop speaking up when people stereotype Black men and drag their names through the dirt (no one speaks up for us), stop caring when a Black man get followed around a store, stop caring when the woman at the front desk won’t let a Black man into the building because he’s wearing a hoodie and she thinks he looks like a criminal…stop complaining to management and siding with Black men when they feel they’ve been discriminated against, stop donating money to Black men organizations. Just stop because that would be the non-oppressive thing to do.

    Yes, you should stop making the list of things you do for them longer and longer. You will only become more and more miserable because they are never going to pay. So, you will be miserable for all of your life. Do you want to waste your life begging black men to want you?

    If all black men disappeared, you would find another man you would like just as much or more. Pretend they’ve all disappeared. The kind of black American man that you and many black American women are looking for has disappeared. Obviously.

    Find your own happiness and forget about men who don’t like you. Don’t carry your misery around. It’s a turn off. Start today. Find your Hispanic, white, or other hunk of man and be happy.


  459. @WarrenAZ–

    If black men don’t get to use the “day 1″ excuse then black women can’t have it either. Black women finding black men physically appealing doesn’t mean there is a lack of sophistication on their part.

    I was guessing about why some black American women seem to be addicted to black men like a drug. I can’t understand women like that.

    Granted that it’s harder for black American women to be with white men due to history, current racism and therefore, current racialized beauty standards, still, percentage-wise, there are men from other groups who really like black women. If the women focus on those other men, those men will respond. It’s like staring at somebody. They will sense that and begin to look at you.


  460. @ Shady Grady cont’d:

    “Amazing. So much wrong in a few short sentences.
    So never mind that you see a black man with a “dark-skinned woman” (she can’t be a light sister huh??). You KNOW that he hates black women. WOW.
    And black men dating white women have underlying illness? OK. Because apparently two people could never fall in love or maybe just in lust like any other people on the planet. Does a white man dating a black woman by definition suffer from underlying illness or does that just apply to BM/WW? Because the woman’s melanin level is too low for you (although you’re not involved in their relationship) that means the man is sick. Hmm.”

    I would say that you need to go back and read that paragraph in its entirety, but based on the fact that you conveniently just included that one sentence and not the sentences that give it the appropriate context so you could claim an intellectual “gotcha!” tells me that it was done on purpose. The entire comment for your reading pleasure:

    “However, I will not pretend like the OPINIONS of some of these men, and the lack of black men who allegedly don’t share those opinions yet never seem to take a stand against them, do not and should not matter to me as a black woman existing in a society with black men. Just because I see a brother with a dark-skinned woman on his arm doesn’t mean that he can’t agree with the sentiments expressed by BW-hating black men. The misogyny in black men runs extremely high, and I only need to look at the rates of domestic violence – both fatal and non-fatal – to support me on this. The aspect of black men dating white women is a symptom of an underlying illness.”

    I did not state that I know that all black men with black women hates black women. I did not even state that I “KNOW” that SOME of black men with black women hate black women. I specifically made that comment in the context to prove that even black men with black women doesn’t necessarily preclude them from having animosity toward black women, much like the lame “I have black friends” statement is somehow meant to preclude white people from harboring negative opinions about people of color. Absolutely no one in a society or community operates completely devoid of influence from the prevailing opinions and attitudes of that society. If you’re a baby born in a predominantly Muslim society, odds are pretty damn high that you’re going to die a Muslim. If you’re a baby born in a predominantly Christian society, odds are pretty damn high you’re going to die a Christian. And if you’re born in a society steeped in the prevailing attitudes of white privilege, I don’t really think it’s an insane leap of logic to conclude that this will affect the way minorities perceive ourselves and fellow minorities. For your opinions to be derived from a perspective of “it’s not your business/it doesn’t affect you/so why do you care” fails basic Psych 101. Additionally, if you are going to take my statements out of context and then construct strawmen arguments based on things that I didn’t even state, then I guess I will ignore you like satanforce. I have been reading this blog for several months and just figured there was an opportunity to engage in reasonable debate, even if we hold different perspective.

    “Well he may well be. I don’t say no to that. But he may have found someone who just happens to fit his needs. The woman may have found a man who shares her goals. There are a million and one reasons that people come together and none of them are anyone else’s business. It is I dare say somewhat presumptuous and intellectually dishonest to pretend we know what’s going on in someone else’s life and think we can run their life better than they can.
    There is something wrong with the mentality of people who look at overwhelming numbers of monochrome partnerships, see a handful of interracial ones, and lose their religion. It’s about poor self-image and trying to control other people.”

    It is nothing but pure self-interest that is on display throughout the comments as black women attempt to marginalize and insult any black man who displays a preference for anyone lighter than say Jennifer Hudson. EVERY group (BM/WM/WW/etc does it. It is not particular to black women. People always try to use guilt, shame and fear to limit “their” opposite’s choices while appealing to freedom and openness to maximize their own.”
    I have ALREADY STATED that is is well possible for two people to fall in love who just happen to be of different races. In FACT, it was the VERY SENTENCE before the one that you decided to take out of context to pounce on me for:

    “It is definitely possible that two people can fall in love and be compatible, but just happen to be of different races. I also understand that the vast majority of black men marry black women… but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they do not agree on some level with the negative sentiments espoused by the black-woman hating black men who date interracially.”
    And I really and truly do not understand what you mean in your paragraph starting “it is nothing but pure self-interest”… Good f-ing grief. Let me just sum my points up for you real quick like since you seem to “miss” them over… and over.. and over again.

    1) More BM date and marry interracially than BW.
    2) A minority of BM bash BW and praise non-BW.
    3) BW and BM exist in a society that was essentially created on racism (America would NOT exist as a first-world superpower without the unpaid labor and sacrifice of the “lower IQ-d” negroes.
    4) This racism permeates the way out society operates at both a micro and macro level, in ways that are blatant, subtle, and invisible; conscious, sub-conscious, and unconscious; but almost always in ways that we routinely deny or refuse to confront.
    5) This creates a unique situation for BW, who are both victims of misogyny by BM and racism by WM and WW i.e. intersectionality.
    6) Contrary to WM, BM do not on a MACRO SCALE come to the support and defense of BW.
    7) Point 6, coupled with points 1 and 2, = justification for BW to hold personal opinions about BM/non-BW pairings.
    8) You routinely and completely deny any rationale for BW to care or have negative feelings towards BM/non-BW relationships, despite points 1 and 2 being 100% provably true, and point 6? Your anecdotal evidence of BM who defend BW can be far outmatched by the anecdotal evidence I can find of the reverse, I’m sure.


  461. “damn, I guess I better just forget about waiting until marriage to have sex cuz it seems like Black men are not into marrying Black women anymore anyway…I better get mine while I still can…cuz the way things are going these days…it seems not enough Black men even care about Black women.”

    **************************************

    I know you’re feeling hurt, lonely, upset, frustrated …
    But be wise in all things.. don’t cut off your nose to spite your face!

    The good/right man is very much worth WAITING for – IF you will be patient enough.

    In the meantime, be the one in control of your urges rather than have those urges in control of you. You KNOW of ALL the potential negative outcomes and consequences …

    If you wait, you’ll find the right man in your life who’ll do his best to protect and support you in every good thing.

    You don’t need ENOUGH black men to care about you/black women!

    You only need one. The right one. Hopefully, you’ll be able to recognize HIM when he appears. In the meantime, you can make yourself READY for this relationship/marriage by doing self-improvements that will attract the type of man you’re seeking. It’ll work out …


  462. I’ve been lurking for quite some time. This post caught my eye and I was curious to see how the commentary would differ from the White man, Black woman post. One thing I notice is that there tends to be more vocal disdain from some of the men on both post than the women. That doesn’t say there there aren’t any BM-bashing BW as well but the men seem to think less of their bashing than the women. Usually I thought women talk the most. heh. Men in my opinion usually have the advantage in interracial relationships and like the commenter Mira said male privilege will always be above racism.

    My views on BM/WW relationships is most of the time non-existent. I guess the only time it’s gotten in my way is when some people in these types of relationships go far and beyond their way to make me notice them. Did they think I’d get jealous? I’ve actually never been in a relationship with a Black or White men and part of it was mostly due to me growing up in Asia. I’m not stranger to self hating Black men and women and honestly Black people would be better off without them. It’s not like all Black men are like that and all will never be like that. It’s best to just keep such negativity as far away from one self as you can.


  463. I will not engage with you. You are irrationally hostile, overly prone to personal attacks and it’s really a complete waste of my time. Cheers.

    In which of my recent posts did I personally attack you? Your statement above is nothing more than a deflection, and my hostility has only been towards those who spout non sequitors, and hit-and-run posters with a personal agenda.

    Also, I am quite sure that if that were true, Abagond, would have had banned me, or at least warned me by now.

    6) Contrary to WM, BM do not on a MACRO SCALE come to the support and defense of BW.

    I have shown several examples, both historical and recent, of Black men defending black women on a “Macro” scale.

    Your anecdotal evidence of BM who defend BW can be far outmatched by the anecdotal evidence I can find of the reverse, I’m sure.

    That would be true, but also irrelevant. You are shifting your position from:

    “Black men don’t support black women as much as black women support black men”
    to the reverse, “Black men harm black women more than they support them .”

    The latter statement, the reverse claim, is a commonplace, for men of all races. And moving the goalposts is still a logical fallacy.

    When the CDC released those stats about black women have a herpes rate of 50%, who was it in the Clutch Magazine forums that look at the sample sizes and saw that black women had been oversampled? Who looked at the results and noticed that the 50% was for production of herpes antibodies, not herpes itself?

    Black men.

    When Young Berg was talking about “dark butts”, didn’t black men clown him on youtube and elsewhere? And the same with Lil’ Wayne?

    You have also further proved my point by saying that it is a small minority of white men bashing white women, while the MAJORITY, accompanied by white privilege of holding so much power in society at large, do LOUDLY and CONSISTENTLY and IMMEDIATELY come to white females’ defense they they even perceive that their superiority/safety/etc. is being attacked.

    Well, let’s examine the bolded area. A small minority of white men may actually bash white women, but that is not the only form of misogyny. A large meritocratic organisation that actively engages in the humiliation and rape of women is the US military.

    From FoxNews.com

    The Department of Defense estimates that more than 19,000 military men and women were sexually assaulted by fellow troops in 2010 while serving in the United States armed forces. At least 20 percent of servicewomen and 1 percent of men — an estimated 500,000 troops — have experienced sexual trauma while serving.

    The Tailhook scandal

    The Tailhook scandal refers to a series of incidents where more than 100 U.S. Navy and United States Marine Corps aviation officers were alleged to have sexually assaulted at least 87 women, or otherwise engaged in “improper and indecent” conduct at the Las Vegas Hilton in Las Vegas, Nevada. The events took place at the 35th Annual Tailhook Association Symposium from September 8–12, 1991.

    2003 United States Air Force Academy sexual assault scandal

    Twelve percent of the women who graduated from the Air Force Academy in 2003 reported that they were victims of rape or attempted rape while at the Academy. Of 659 women enrolled at the Academy at the time, 70 percent of the 579 women at the academy alleged they had been the victims of sexual harassment, of which 22 percent said they experienced “pressure for sexual favors.

    And the results?

    From The Guardian UK

    Last year 3,158 sexual crimes were reported within the US military. Of those cases, only 529 reached a court room, and only 104 convictions were made, according to a 2010 report from SAPRO (sexual assault prevention and response office, a division of the department of defence). But these figures are only a fraction of the reality. Sexual assaults are notoriously under-reported. The same report estimated that there were a further 19,000 unreported cases of sexual assault last year. The department of veterans affairs, meanwhile, released an independent study estimating that one in three women had experience of military sexual trauma while on active service. That is double the rate for civilians, which is one in six, according to the US department of justice.

    And the rest of your statement:

    Or do you also deny the existence of the “missing white woman” syndrome?”

    No. I don’t think that anyone denies the existence of sensationalised violence against young, pretty, demographically useful women being used as a media circus by cynical media producers to generate ratings for 24-hour news channels. Personally, I don’t think that’s protection.


  464. Hey eevryone!! It;s time again for another episode of Satanforce Theatre!!! Today we have a special treat from the era of Buppie Blaxploitation (late 90s to early 00s). It is The Brothers (2001), with scenes by Bill Bellamy!! Oh don’t worry, you’ll still get to see Morris Chestnut and Shemar Moore.

    Without further ado.

    So here we see Bil Bellamy casually disrepecting a black woman in an authority position. Why would he do such a thing to a “sista”?

    Stay tuned!


  465. Hmmmm. Let’s see…

    1. No respect for female authority figures (you can see they changed the script from black bitch to black woman)
    2. A casual misogyny almost bordering on sociopathy
    3. Use of the common racist stereotypes used by white conservatives to bash black men
    4. Sexually loose, unwilling (or unable) to sustain meaningful relationships with women
    5. Resolves to fix issues with black women by seeing only white women

    Sounds to me like he’s on of those SOME BM. An ANTI-BW BM. But why is he this way/ Too much BET? A girl laughed at him when he was broke? Let’s see his next move.

    Oh. Dear. Me. He even struck out with the nice tittied blonde. And you can see that she was really into him. Now he is just a bullshit man. Like he always was. But why? What is the source of his bullshittery?

    Like many black single mothers, Bill’s mother is unaffectionate. So he himself is unaffectonate. And he takes this out on black women , especially those with authority. He does not love them – after all why would you expect any of those women to treat you any better than your own mother treated you? A man who has been mistreated by his mother like that is bound to distrust, and women and will not be able to form meaningful relationships with women, of his race or otherwise.

    But back to his mother. She disrespects his father, and the women that they left her for. She also compares both her sons to their fathers. And we have all heard of this before. In Jamaica we hear single mothers say that their son’s are “wutliss like yu daddy” (worthless like your daddy), and the insults hurled at Bill Bellamy above.

    What has happened in communities in the Black diaspora is that black single mothers have become deified, and thus immune to criticism. The result is that they can verbally abuse their son’s, causing them to grow up with dysfunctional attitudes towards women that look like their mothers. The verbal abuse that is hurled at children by their custodial parents has a name – parental alienation.

    Black women have not been held accountable for actions that negatively affect their young sons. Instead black women are always considered victims, some have seemingly developed a misplaced victim/persecution complex against black men whom may have not meant them any harm.

    It would be useful for black women to see how their actions have affected young black men and do what the gentleman below is doing below – introspect.


  466. @Bulanik & eco

    Bulanik says: It’s the idea that that the white woman becomes ‘stained’ and ‘unclean’ as a result of intimate contact with a black man…she’s soiled her race and lost her rank, no better than a black.

    eco says: It seems to me you are overthinking it. Some white people believe that white women who date other races (especially black) are pursuing men who are substandard. If they have low standards, that makes them similar to women who sleep around, who are easy – thus they are seen as sluts.

    I’m confused as to how Bulanik is overthinking things? I appreciate that there is a literal meaning to the word Slut i.e. a woman who has sexual relationships with a lot of men without any emotional involvement or <lose/no morals, but, in common vernacular, women like this are also labelled as ‘nasty’ or ‘dirty’, certainly in the UK anyway.

    So, in this instance, I can see why Bulanik would come to this conclusion. IMO you are both understanding the same thing but from different angles i.e. WW who date BM and other races = Slut =Sullied and tainted or ‘Stained’ and ‘Unclean’ and WW who do not date outside their race = ‘purer’ and ‘cleaner’ than those that chose to date IR.


  467. @ Peanut

    Not a good idea, but if that’s what you want to do then it’s your life.

    Matari said what I would have said.


  468. I didn’t watch any of these videos because I’m mostly a happy person and I’m not going to subject myself to the contents of these.

    What causes some of us black women to close our minds to these discussions is the almost total blame put on black women for just about everything. Here you are with the “horrible black mother” meme.

    Maybe these black women weren’t shown any affection either as children by their fathers or their mothers. Black men say they didn’t have good male role models and that’s why they do bad things, but they still turn around and blame black women who also didn’t have the good role models because their mothers were struggling too. Like you’re saying, it’s hard to give affection if you didn’t get any as a child. I think too many black people are broken people having children with other broken people.

    Lots of biracial children of BM/WW relationships are broken too. There are plenty of broken white women who become white babymamas and get abandoned by their black man sperm donors. More of those biracial children are ending up in foster homes too. Broken.

    This is why more and more younger, educated black American women I know have planned not to ever have children. It’s too risky.


  469. jorbia–
    i have really appreciated you comments on this post. you’ve been thoughtful & civil even when frustrated by pettiness, insecurity, ignorance & the ever popular concern trolling.

    peanut aka proudchocolategirl–
    never let them see you sweat, girl. i live the hell out of that motto.
    you requested that Abagond write this post. i have to be honest & say that seems a little masochistic. it takes a whole lot of denial not to know where this would end.
    take matari’s advice–all except the wait on a man part. no offense, but this is a huge planet & there’s much you can do with your time besides
    waiting.


  470. @Demerera

    http://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/01/27/black-men-white-women/#comment-110595

    I do see how “slut” can mean both. When I used it, I meant the literal, dictionary meaning, not the slang one. I my opinion the idea that these women are damaged goods (stained, unclean) is rare, but the idea that they are pursuing substandard men is something much more common.


  471. I didn’t watch any of these videos because I’m mostly a happy person and I’m not going to subject myself to the contents of these.

    But I appreciate you reading the comments nonetheless.

    What causes some of us black women to close our minds to these discussions is the almost total blame put on black women for just about everything. Here you are with the “horrible black mother” meme.

    Strawman. I am merely stating that not holding black women accountable for their behaviour is one of the main causes of dysfunction in the children they are responsible for. Once they grow up, their complexes are theirs to fix.

    Brothawolf has posted an excellent article on mental illness in the black community, and why it goes untreated.

    Maybe these black women weren’t shown any affection either as children by their fathers or their mothers.

    Irrelevant. The mothers are projecting their rage at their babyfathers at their sons, who look and have similar mannerisms as their fathers. It has little to do with lingering childhood issues.

    @temple

    you’ve been thoughtful & civil even when frustrated by pettiness, insecurity

    Like black women who are not attracted to black men posting in a comment section about black men and white womenin intimate relationships?

    ….& the ever popular concern trolling…..peanut aka proudchocolategirl–
    never let them see you sweat, girl. i live the hell out of that motto.
    you requested that Abagond write this post. i have to be honest & say that seems a little masochistic….. ut this is a huge planet & there’s much you can do with your time besides
    waiting.

    It’s very interesting that you would bring up concern trolling , seeing that you are a known regular at Beyond Black and White, one of the most popular BWE sites right now. And to come on a blog post that is discussing black men in relationships with white women is either rather masochistic on your part, or is merely trolling in bad faith on your part. Shouldn’t you be back on Mrs. Karazin’s site, discussing how you will get white men to protect you?


  472. really satanforce you need to calm yourself. do you think that you are “outing” me. this is the internet, not the CIA. i don’t need government clearance to read, comment on any blog that i choose to.


  473. Shady Grady,

    it becomes black women’s business when our names are dragged through the dirt or when people are prejudice against their own race…as i’ve said a dozen times i never cared about bm dating ww until i started hearing all the nonsense, now I’m convinced it’s not always just “about love,” but about “hate” and the disrespect and lack of consideration for bw is evidence of that and in my book Black women have every right to express their disappointment and feelings on that matter…black men can do what ever they want for what ever reasons no one talking about makin a law to stop them, but in return Black women can express their feelings and view points on it as well…bw do not have to keep these things to themselves and silently endure any more


  474. Here are some examples of some famous BM/WW relationships.

    Sir Seretse Khama and Ruth Williams

    They shared their enthusiasm for jazz and eventually romance ensued and they were married a year later, in 1948. The interracial marriage sparked a furor among both the apartheid government of South Africa and the tribal elders. Seretse was at first banned from the chieftainship and the territory for breaking tribal custom, but was later re-affirmed and eventually became Chief. Because of the apartheid system in South Africa, the country could not afford to have an interracial couple ruling just across their border, so pressure was put on to have Seretse removed from his chieftainship.

    Interesting Fact: Botswana was among the world’s poorest countries but during Seretse Khama’s tenure as president, Botswana had the fastest growing economy in the world. Khama instituted strong measures against corruption and reinvested money into infrastructure, health and education. In 2009, Seretse and Ruth’s fist son, Ian, won a landslide victory and became the fourth President of Botswana. Their younger son, Tshekedi , was elected as a parliamentarian.

    Joseph Philippe Laroche and Juliette Lafargue

    However, in March of 1912 Juliette discovered that she was pregnant, so the family decided to leave for Haiti before her pregnancy became too far advanced. For a welcome present Joseph’s mother in Haiti bought them steamship tickets on the La France, but the line’s strict policy regarding children caused them to transfer their booking to the Titanic’s second class. Racism towards the couple because of their interracial marriage was rampant aboard the ship, especially among the crew members. After the Titanic struck an iceberg historians agree that Laroche was calm and heroic. As the ship sank, Joseph stuffed his coat packets with money and jewelry and took his pregnant wife and children up to the boat deck and managed to get them into the lifeboat. He wrapped the coat around his wife, and his last words were: “Here, take this, you are going to need it. I’ll get another boat. God be with you. I’ll see you in New York.” Joseph Laroche died in the sinking and was the only passenger of black descent (besides his daughters) on the Titanic. His body was never found.

    Frederick Douglass and Helen Pitts

    After Anna died in 1882, he met Helen Pitts, a white abolitionist and suffragist. Against the wishes of Douglas’s children and her family, they married. The marriage was the subject of scorn by both white and black Americans, but the couple was firm in their convictions. Douglass’s marriage was an affirmation of his personal belief in American unity, and his desire for a true melting pot of cultures within the United States. Douglas laughingly commented, “This proves I am impartial. My first wife was the color of my mother and the second, the color of my father.” Helen Pitts said “Love came to me, and I was not afraid to marry the man I loved because of his color,” The couple were married for eleven years, until his sudden death from a heart attack, in 1895. Douglass was also an advocate of equal rights for women.

    see more examples of interracial couples here:

    http://listverse.com/2011/01/25/10-fascinating-interracial-marriages-in-history/


  475. I don’t want to wait anymore, I’m sorry but I can’t.

    @ jorbia

    “If all black men disappeared, you would find another man you would like just as much or more. Pretend they’ve all disappeared. The kind of black American man that you and many black American women are looking for has disappeared. Obviously.”

    I don’t want Black men to disappear, I only want respect and understanding. I never said all black men were the cause of Black woman’s troubles. I just think its beyond troubling the excessive amount of bashing, emotional abuse and brainwashing that some Black men express in their choices.

    you do not wake up in a white supremacist culture and one day just randomly have this disdain for your race, no there is a reason for it. I want more Black men to stop bull sh*tting and just admit that the reason for that is they’re r-cist because they grew up in a r-cist culture/world that places Black women at the absolute bottom of every thing.

    They can keep doing what they do but don’t send the message to little Black girls and Black women (whether directly or indirectly) that there’s something wrong w/ Black women because they refuse to show respect or interest in the well-being of Black girls and would rather bash and disrespect Black women.

    If more Black men who are brainwashed would just admit “i’m doing what I do because that is what is looked up to in society,” it would take the pressure off of Black women and stop making them think that because they don’t fit society’s beauty standard that there’s something wrong with them, when some Black men regardless of how cute or nice she is, just won’t like a Black woman…because she is Black simply put.

    But I can’t stand when people choose not to see that there is a problem with the treatment of Black women and that (primarily) it has been these type of Black men openly bashing Black women for the world to see, it has and now some Black women have gone on the defensive.

    I don’t expect every one to get it, but let’s not pretend we don’t see these things, when they’re so obvious and stop faulting Black women who care enough and are bothered by these things and speak about them.


  476. satan force,

    “It’s very interesting that you would bring up concern trolling , seeing that you are a known regular at Beyond Black and White, one of the most popular BWE sites right now. And to come on a blog post that is discussing black men in relationships with white women is either rather masochistic on your part, or is merely trolling in bad faith on your part. Shouldn’t you be back on Mrs. Karazin’s site, discussing how you will get white men to protect you?”

    I hope you’re not talking to me because I am not a regular poster on beyondblackandwhite I barely even go there.


  477. and my screen name is not “proudchocolategirl,” i changed my name for a reason, it was peanut before and it’s peanut now.


  478. and it was Douglass Black wife who helped him get to where he was by the way, a prime example thanks for bringing that up.


  479. @satanforce–

    Irrelevant. The mothers are projecting their rage at their babyfathers at their sons, who look and have similar mannerisms as their fathers. It has little to do with lingering childhood issues.

    Are you trying to play mental health expert? Even most experienced psychiatrists can’t pinpoint with accuracy why people do what they do. People are too complex. You’re just conveniently assigning blame to match your theories because you obviously have a need to vent against black women.You haven’t been inside these black mother’s brains to find out anything about them. You cannot prove it didn’t come from being starved for affection from their fathers and mothers or whatever else. As you said, people who don’t get love and affection themselves don’t have it to give others later in life, unless they are the exception.

    It’s well documented that one reason why so many teen black girls get pregnant is because they’re seeking the male affection and attention from any male that their babydaddy fathers who abandoned them, never gave them. They have father-hunger. Plenty of those mothers you’re blaming have had to make do without male affection themselves.


  480. and I don’t believe the black community doesn’t value Black women the way Black men are. Prime example would be the desiree washington/R.Kelly incidents and Red Tails too is another example. NAACP promoting that silly movie by a white producer that didn’t consider Black women important enough to include at all.

    I’m sick of hearing people telling young black girls “they’re fast,” when they are sexually molested by OLDER Black men. the so-called Black community doesn’t care about Black women or Black girls.


  481. here are some famous Black men/white women couples though:


  482. My last comment in this thread.

    @ Peanut–

    I want more Black men to stop bull sh*tting and just admit that the reason for that is they’re r-cist because they grew up in a r-cist culture/world that places Black women at the absolute bottom of every thing.

    They are not going to stop it and it won’t matter how much you beg. It gives them pleasure for you to beg them because they interpret that as them having power. Who else can they bash and have such fun? Who else would beg a black man for anything?

    Black men are sexist and racist because they want to be sexist and racist. Black men rage on here against white men for being racist and don’t let white men off the hook for being racist, so don’t give black men any excuse for being racist either. Don’t blame the racist culture or world. People are racist and sexist because they are benefiting from it. Don’t let people fool you. They could and would stop being racist and sexist if they didn’t benefit from it.

    I’m a black woman and I have never believed I was at the bottom of anything. You are not at the bottom either unless you have put yourself at the bottom. Black men certainly don’t have the power to put you or anyone else at the bottom. Free your mind, my sister. It doesn’t matter what people call you, it’s what you answer to that counts.


  483. i don’t think i’ll be commenting anymore either.


  484. i’ve got better things to do like work on my book.


  485. Smoooothhhhh and delectable


  486. (Takes a deep breath.) (man. I’m not gonna get any work done today.)

    I’m sick of hearing people telling young black girls “they’re fast,” when they are sexually molested by OLDER Black men. the so-called Black community doesn’t care about Black women or Black girls.

    First, the concern trolling comment was directed toward temple. not you peanut.

    Second, and the main issue. You probably think that I don’t like black women too much, especially when I’m trolling Demerara and sepultura. Of course I say ridiculous things for my own amusement and people’s reactions.

    This post is not one of those times.

    I have noticed recently, in my city, a callous disregard for young girls, from the ghettoes.

    From the Jamaica Gleaner

    “Mothers below the age of 15 gave birth for the first time to 225 children, and an additional three were recorded as second birth for mothers under 15 years old.

    and

    According to the participants, men see them as clean and less likely to become pregnant again, and so, proposition them for sex. They explain how it makes them feel cold the way the men look at them and the things they say to them.

    “Is a whole heap of man out there want young pregnant girls. They tell us that they will mind the baby if we give them a piece.” “They tell us that when a young girl pregnant we are tighter.”

    “Dem ask wi if we nuh want dem wash the baby head with the sperm – they claim it will make it easier to have the baby if the head wash.”

    “Dem sey dem like to have sex with pregnant teenagers, because they want to have unprotected sex and come inna yu. You won’t get pregnant again cause yu already pregnant.”

    “Some of them think we are safer – they want to have sex with us because they don’t want to get disease.”

    I have to agree that young black women, especially those that are poor, are seen as adults, because they are engaging in adult activities. Which is retarded.

    But then , what is to be done?

    What you can do

    Literacy – One of my friends had asked me to help some of the guys in my community to learn how to read. They had not wanted to use government or other programs, because those were public, and open-air, and they did not want to be embarrased in public.

    So two hours every evening,for two months, I would help trainee security guards, trainee drivers and some other slow learners to read. When the holidays were over, some of the parents in the community asked for me to help their teenage daughters and sons with reading and math for CSEC exams.

    What I had realised was that a lot of those girls,had never felt any sense of accomplishment in their lives. So just being able to complete their times tables, much less solve quadratic and simultaneous equations, gave them a feeling that they never felt before.

    I did check up on them from time to time, and their parents had told me that they did settle down, and started to focus on their schoolwork more. One parent who had described her daughter as being too “fucky fucky” said that she was no longer promiscuous.

    I don’t know if they changed whatever sexual habits they may have previously had as a result. But two of the nine chicks got their Assoc. Degrees a year ago, and another young man just got into the Maritime Academy to start training. But, there is also the issue of

    Finances

    Let’s face it. A lot of these chicks is fucking for money. But it is not prostitution, it is survival sex. I Remember seeing this chick, who had said when she was 15 at the time, come to house in my gated community with an empty plastic bag, and walk out with a slight limp and a full plastic bag. Telling the police would not have helped seeing that the home was the residence of a police Inspector. I had asked some of the shopkeepers in the area offhandedly, if they wold give away food, to people who have to go a few days without food. Got laughed at. Same thing with session promoters. And to tell you the truth, I don’t know what to do about that.

    The Internet

    Using social media as a medium to shame sickfuck child molesters is an idea I have been thinking about, basically putting up pictures of these older guys to shame them, like a youtube, or facebook version of “To Catch a Predator.” Clearly highly centralised organisations like the NAACP are not the way to go, the focus should be on creating decentralised, but robust, organisations like Wikileaks and Anonymous.

    I hope you find my ideas helpful.


  487. This really is my last comment. I’m sorry if I offended anyone with my ranting. I don’t hate Black men or white women and I don’t think all Black men get into interracial relationships for the wrong reasons, I know there are some out there who just love. I just wish people would stop allowing those who are in it not for love, but for hate to trash the dignity of Black women and make Black women feel ugly or inferior go on unchecked. I just want some respect so that young Black girls don’t have to grow up believing there is something wrong with them.

    Just respect and honesty would make a big difference


  488. Leigh204—

    Reggie Bush is fine! I don’t know what he saw in Kim Kardashian in the first place. Btw, is Kim Kardashian considered “white”? Some people don’t think she is white per se.

    She is by far most white people, yes. Her mother is all Euro ancestry, Irish and Italian iirc. Her father was Armenian, which is certainly Caucasian/West Eurasian (the same major geographic race as white Euros), and Armenians are Christians and tend to be similarly successful as Ashkenazi European jews, so yeah they’re thought of as white pretty much.


  489. Abagond—

    Among married black men in 2010, one in 12 had a white wife.

    Not sure where you’re getting that number. I think it’s high.

    Among married white women in 2010, only 0.7% had a black husband according to the US census.

    There are about 6x as many whites as blacks, so the translation from my census number would by 4.2%, whereas 1 in 12 is about 8.3%.

    A few usually not super hot, but usually pretty, white women marry rich and famous black athletes and movie stars. Most white women black man marriages though are between fat white proles and black men with good jobs.

    • Easier to get into bed – always a virtue with out-group women, never a virtue with in-group ones.

    White women in general are considerably harder to get into bed, STD epidemiological and other studies show, but the sort of white woman who will date black men often are very slutty.


  490. I suppose I shouldn’t say this, but I don’t give a crap if you’re caucasian, black, white, asian, whatever… a gorgeous woman is a gorgeous woman.

    I just happen to think that the most gorgeous women amongst gorgeous women are black women.

    Just in case some of you forget. ;)


  491. @Doug1

    White women in general are considerably harder to get into bed, STD epidemiological and other studies show, but the sort of white woman who will date black men often are very slutty.

    In terms of WW not being harder to get in to bed, I suppose it may depend on where you live I guess but, I can tell you categorically that this is not the case in my locality though I appreciate that your comment is merely anecdotal


  492. About the white guys not wanting a ww who’s had a sexual relationship with a bm, it’s all about the insecurity and fear of said wm not being sexually able to fulfill, or ‘compete’ with her sexual experiences. Just a load of crap, really. Just man up and forget the past, try to be the best man for her now and in the future.


  493. Most men like ‘slutty’ women, because they are easy, but do not respect them afterwards. But why should a man respect himself wanting slutty, easy women? Wouldn’t that make the man slutty, easy himself?


  494. I agree with bulanik. why would them sleeping with a black man automatically make them sl-ts?

    The issue for me is disrespect from some black men to black women, not whether ww who sleep with bm are sl-ts or not.


  495. Some more pictures of black men in relationships with black women.

    http://www.afieldnegro.com/photos.html


  496. my friend who was white dated a black man, she wasn’t a slut. I didn’t have a problem with their relationship mostly because I knew her personally and knew that neither she nor the guy she was with were racist. She mostly dates white men, she dated a Black guy once. The black guy dates black women, he dated a white woman before, it was just a normal relationship.

    I can’t say the same for some black men who seem to bash black women and EXCLUSIVELY date white women to me that’s brainwashing/racist…there’s a difference and that’s who I have my beef with.


  497. Most men like ‘slutty’ women, because they are easy, but do not respect them afterwards

    So thats where I was going wrong…..JOKE

    I share the same view as Bulanik and Peanut though, in fact my best friend is in a relationship with a BM as are quite a of my friends and they are would never be considered as sluttish or amoral in my eyes. They are merely decent people who opened their hearts and found love….


  498. how about cheikh anta diop and his white wife…?


  499. I notice a lot of “afrocentric” tend to have black men have white wives…


  500. i notice a lot of “afrocentric” Black men tend to have white wives…Kola Boof has an interesting take on that one.


  501. “I share the same view as Bulanik and Peanut though, in fact my best friend is in a relationship with a BM as are quite a of my friends and they are would never be considered as sluttish or amoral in my eyes. They are merely decent people who opened their hearts and found love….”

    this is what people are misunderstanding here, it’s not all Black men in interracial it’s the ones who are hypocritical and want to be “open” and colorblind, but at the same time they are brainwashed to not like and to disrespect Black women. The ones who are brainwashed to not like Black women, but hate white men, yet are fixated on white women.

    and I don’t really have an explanation for the Black men who claim to be “afrocentric,” but don’t mess with Black women. I really am stumped on that one and can’t really speak on it because I haven’t met A LOT of black men although I’ve heard of some.

    But, the issue is not about white women being sl-ts. I do not believe a ww sleeping with a black man “defiles” her and makes her a sl-t. I do not believe all Black men are in interracial relationships for the wrong reasons.

    The issue is the degrading, disrespectful and damaging treatment of Black women BY SOME Black men who put white/non-black women on a pedestal. that’s the real issue and I really don’t understand how some people can disagree with the fact that doing that is wrong and it’s become a cultural problem for Black people.


  502. @Bulanik

    Hannu may be onto something

    I dont doubt it. There are probably countless men who got hitched to the ‘girl next door’ when they really lusted after the ‘slag down the lane’ and there are many who probably tried to have both….

    What a woman aye, who can be a ‘cook in the kitchen, a lady in the parlour and a whore in the bedroom…’


  503. i heard her mother was cape verdean and her father was white


  504. yep you got it backwards, her father is Italian, her mother is a cape verdean (part african, part european): http://globalgrind.com/node/299023


  505. my friend’s boyfriend’s mother is cape verdean, her features are similar to a mixed black american, that’s what amber rose mom looks to me.


  506. so I guess by virtue of the one drop rule (which abagond subscribes to) Amber Rose is Black.


  507. Basically yeah; Amber Rose’s non-white heritage is too apparent for her to ever truly be white.

    @Doug1

    You just listed Italians as pure whites?

    The Irish, mostly “white” but not totally, they are like 99.999999999999% white but one drop rule doesn’t allow it.

    Articles back in the use to mention their “swarthy” skin as compared to other “white” europeans, yeah I know crazy as hell but there you go.

    Armenians are caucasian but like mentioned in this thread so to are the Indians from India, being caucasian doesn’t make you white.

    “Whiteness” is a cultural idea as much as a racial one; its why until around 1908, the Irish, Italians and Finns weren’t considered white.


  508. I do not care with whom or with how many men my woman has dated or slept as long as she does not have any health issues or have VDs. I have met and dated women whom some might think as “slutty”, and I have met women whom everybody was thinking as Holier than Holy who in reality were really nasty and morally lost, hateful and evil towards their fellow humanbeings.

    Actually I don’t care what others think about the woman I am in a relationship with. Why should I? Who knows why people are talkin? Main thing is that she is honest, monogamist with me as I am with her, and that we are having a good relationship. Who cares what somebody out there might be thinking or talkin or what ever?

    I had a very good relationship with a woman who happened to be former stripper, porn actress and yes, did some gigs as a call girl. She was smart, funny, very very honest about everything, more honest than so called “good girls”, and very kind and liked tenderness and soft cuddling a lot. She was a good cook, a good companion, and very funny friend. One of the best women I have ever met anywhere in my life.

    I never felt anything about her backround or previous work or that stuff. Why should I? I did not ask with how many guys she had been, how many movies she made etc. I was not with her because of that. I was with her because I really liked her. Unfortunately she moved to another city so things ended between us but we are still friends, she still calls me, she has three kids now and another professional life etc. She survived, turned her life around, is a happy mother etc.

    No, I am not going to tell her stage name because some stuff is still out there, but this story just shows that it doesn’t matter what people say or talk about who is slutty and who is not. If woman is ok, who cares with whom she slept last week or the year before. Main thing is that there is genuine feelings, honesty, caring and respect between the people in the relationship. Outsiders can go gossiping and tellin tall tales to themselves. I don’t care.

    So if a white woman has had sex with a black man, who cares? If a black woman has had sex with white man, who cares? As long as they don’t hurt anybody and it is ok between them, it is their business. Not mine.

    Pedophiles are different thing. Pedophiles are pedophiles. Period. They should be locked up. Period. No mercy. No explanations. Just lock them up. If you are a grown man hitting on girls in their teens, you are a pedophile. Period. If a guy is 30 and she is 15, that is a clear cut case. If the guy 25 and the girl is 15, same thing. If the girl is 15 and the guy 20, same thing. There is a reason for the legal age limits and it is up to the grown up to make sure things don’t go sick. The older guy is the one who is making the desicion. And if he goes for a teen, no matter what that teen has done or said or implied, that guy is a pedophile. No explanations. That is my take on that.


  509. so, wait, some people think white women who sleep with black men are “impure”? WTF, people?

    Now when I think of it, it’s a perfect example of racism and sexism working together.


  510. “so, wait, some people think white women who sleep with black men are “impure”? WTF, people?

    Now when I think of it, it’s a perfect example of racism and sexism working together.”

    *************************************

    I think of it simply as the debilitating long reach of WHITENESS –

    It’s beyond insidious!

    It’s everywhere … affecting everything … and everyone..

    … in one form, or another.


  511. @ Peanut

    I pretty much agree with what Matari said to you.

    I know this has been a rough thread for you, but there was no other way it was going to be. I said it would get ugly. This fight breaks out almost every time white women are brought up, which is sad and ironic, but so it is.


  512. I agree with Shady Grady and Satanforce: it is unfair to paint all or most black men with the words of the bashers. Particularly when there are ten times more black men married to black women than to white women. Since when do words count for more than actions?


  513. ” I just want some respect so that young Black girls don’t have to grow up believing there is something wrong with them.”

    *co-sign*

    …I would add: I want Black boys to grow up believing blackness is beautiful.


  514. a couple things… it’s kind of funny but you all are tending to ‘monolithize’ “white” people to some degree,

    I mean you talk about IR divorce statistics, but were the marraiges integrated into the extended family with approval, were there kids, was there a relocation involved on one party, etc.

    It is too ‘high-level’ to discuss divorce rates i think, in context to this argument with out really drilling down into some deeper social tangents…

    and now i am getting some wierd thoughts, after all, i seek out a certain type of female, i like her to be shorter than me and black and very dark complexion, and you are implying that segment is ‘left-over’ by black guys or something. it is giving me a headache, for real.


  515. MinnieB said:

    …I would add: I want Black boys to grow up believing blackness is beautiful.

    This seems like a reasonable desire, and one that is likely uncontroversial to most audiences.

    Why then is the same consideration generally not extended if a white person says, “…I would add: I want White boys to grow up believing whiteness is beautiful.”?


  516. @ Randy

    Because American culture is already pushing that message 24/7. Internalized racism is not an issue for whites.


  517. Despite how the media is; don’t black people actually have a higher sense of being good looking than white people when they are part of those kind of studies?

    Taking in the factor that for black people of both genders, dating out of the race seems to be a “Plan B” kind of thing.

    And most black people are in relationships/marriages with other black people; it would seem like “black is beautiful” is already something they would agree with.

    Not saying internalized racism doesn’t exist; you can think of yourself as good looking and still have self-hate.

    Or to put it this way; just because a white woman thinks of herself as good looking doesn’t mean she can’t have internalized sexism.


  518. Abagond said:

    Because American culture is already pushing that message 24/7. Internalized racism is not an issue for whites.

    I’m not so sure that’s the case. The modern media appears to commonly advance the idea that white people are square and uncool. Now, if you changed your statement to: “Internalized racism is not as much of an issue for whites” then that would seem to be more accurate.

    More critically, in the broader picture your comment suggests that a particular group does not have an inherent right to value itself. Rather, it’s allowed to value itself only if it meets certain subjective criteria.

    This raises questions such as “What is this criteria and who is allowed to set it?”

    I believe that many white folks are becoming increasingly aware that such double standards exist, to the overall detriment of race relations.

    Imagine if anyone who suggested that “black is beautiful” were nearly universally denounced as being “black supremacist” and then socially and economically ostracized.

    Allow me to suggest that you might feel intellectually offended, as you’d understand quite reasonably that simply saying “X is beautiful” doesn’t imply that “X is better than Y” or that “Y is bad”.

    Further, you might then conclude that those steering the common culture to denounce you for stating that “black is beautiful” are acting in bad faith, and are not ultimately working towards the common good.


  519. I agree with Shady Grady and Satanforce: it is unfair to paint all or most black men with the words of the bashers

    (pants heavily) We did it. We chased away the sows and heifers. Wasn’t easy. But them swine now know that black men aren’t gonna sit down and let them cut off our balls anymore.

    Now, black men who bash black women bashers.


  520. @ Satanforce

    Please do not use animal terms to refer to other commenters. Going forward I will delete all such comments. I will update my comment policy accordingly later today.


  521. Please do not use animal terms to refer to other commenters. Going forward I will delete all such comments. I will update my comment policy accordingly later today.

    No Problem.


  522. SatanForce

    As an aside, you forgot to add that Sir Seretse Khama was exiled to London for some of his tenure as leader, and that it was actually the presidents Sir Ketumile Masire(the longest serving President of Bots) and Festus Mogae(previously his vice president) that undersaw Botswana to the successful African country that it is today.
    When the British left, before diamonds were discovered, Botswana had only 12 km of paved road(that’s how poor it was) and because it had such dubious profitability and not worth compromising relations with South Africa, they deemd it the safer option to exile him to London with his white wife rather than ruffle feathers with White Supremacist South Africa.
    I felt uneasy at how you tied his marriage to this white woman with Botswana’s success and airbrush the more significant and major players in getting Botswana to what it is today.
    I don’t think this man is to be commended, he is certainly not worthy of such accolades bestowed upon him.
    As a Motswana, I feel he should have put his country first! Ok the principle of love trumping all is all good and well, but if your people elected you to take them forth as a president, and he goes off to London to bring home a typist to be our first lady, I say f*@K that jazz they had in common!! I have a penchant for classical and country, but I can be certifiable emo for my people.
    Was it worth all the aggro it took to hang onto that woman?
    Their son, current President Ian Khama, is a mediocre leader who really benefited from the legacy of the previous two. Some of the adoration for this man reeks of awe and fascination, as if his existance alone is supposed to atone for how his father could have f@**ed it up for Botswana.

    The true measure of a man is one who puts the interests of say…oh..a million and a half impoverished people who looked up to him to lead them and not incur the ire of racists next door.
    This self serving defiance is what lies at the heart of some of these unions.

    Interracial love is like all others, I feel this tendency to get too caught up in its novelty as in this instance, other more pertinent matters are not given their credence. Airbrushing some of his failings as a leader and a man, the contribution of men that wouldn’t rock the boat for a foreigner, and highlighting how great his marriage was to this white woman as if that alone was a founding force of a prosperous Botswana is utterly ludicrous!

    Some dudes man.. SMDH!!


  523. @merrimay

    I see you are one of the few who see why I posted those examples…..


  524. @abagond–“This fight breaks out almost every time white women are brought up”

    actually the most abusive comments are those that occur whenever you post an article about black women & the comments mostly come from black men.


  525. @ MinnieB

    “…I would add: I want Black boys to grow up believing blackness is beautiful.”

    **********************************************

    Hi Comrade! : )

    What do YOU mean when you say “blackness?”


  526. @ Randy:

    “Allow me to suggest that you might feel intellectually offended, as you’d understand quite reasonably that simply saying “X is beautiful” doesn’t imply that “X is better than Y” or that “Y is bad”.”

    There is a line between pride in one’s race and racism and that line is at the word imply. Whites cross that line. In part because their pride in being White Americans is false and narcissistic and therefore in need of constant support – they suffer from Fragile White Ego Syndrome. Which is unfortunate for the rest of us given their military and media power.

    Racial pride is healthy and necessary for people of colour. The lack of that pride drives most of the dispute on this thread. But a healthy pride is also necessary for whites because the sort of pride they have now – the pride of a bully – winds up hurting everyone.


  527. I think we share similar perspectives here.

    The suppression of healthy and positive racial pride among white folks (and the negative stereotypes of white people put forth by the media) also seems to contribute to the problems described in this thread.

    Let me explain.

    Popular media has established and endlessly repeated the stereotype that black guys are particularly “suave and cool”, more suave and cool than white guys. Thus, black guys like my former flatmate can simply show up at predominantly white social settings and get attention.

    On top of that, these white girls tend not to hold the (perceived) “suave and cool black guy” to the same standards as they’d hold a white guy.

    The net result is that you have at least some black guys comparing their experiences with white girls (who cut them unearned slack) to their experiences with black girls (who likely don’t cut them unearned slack), and then expressing negative feelings about black girls.

    (Sidenote: both of these effects can also be seen in WM-AF relations, but that’s another topic)


  528. One of the reasons why black women are perceived as being inferior to white women is because the positive efforts of black women are not highlighted in the media, even by black women themselves


  529. Link for the above video


  530. @Sam

    I read your comment and it brought back some memories about my blogs which were hacked and malicious information posted on it. The culprits know who they are.

    Anyway, the way I see it, if a man or woman truly wants to know the truth about a potential love interest, do you leave it to other people to find out information for you, or do you find out the information for yourself by talking to the person you ae interested in? I think it is pathetic that a man asks people of questionable character to go and find out information about a potential love interest. Pathetic.

    Also, how can you claim to know someone you have never met? If you want to know the facts, go to the source and ask directly. The problem with some people these days is that they are just not bold enough to want to know the facts and would rather hear and listen to lies and gossip from people with questionable motives and of questionable character.

    Also, if you don’t like a person, does this mean that you should ruin their character and reputation. Some people are just not good people.

    Just because people read information on the internet, does this make it factual? If someone uses photoshop to falsify images, does this make them authentic?

    There are many jobs to do besides being a stripper, porn star etc. Each to his/her own.

    Yes, honesty is important in any relationship. If a man is honest with me, I can trust him. If he goes around to all my friends, acquaintances and enemies to ask questions and does not come to me directly, then I can’t trust that person.

    On to paedophiles, personally, I am not interested with going out with anyone who molests children or who is of questionable character with low moral values. Now, there was one person who was going around saying that someone was a paedophile who had abused him, well, it appears that this accuser is also a paedophile and sexual predator, Internet cyberstalker, offline stalker and possible rapist himself. I won’t mention any names. The problem with SOME people who say they were molested is that they go on and molest people too. There is nothing worse than an abused person who then goes on to abuse and take advantage of others while dressing themselves up as a victim.

    If you are getting into a relationship with someone, I think it is important to know the facts about that person. How can you know all the facts about someone you have never met or spoken to?


  531. abagond said:

    “@ Peanut

    I pretty much agree with what Matari said to you.

    I know this has been a rough thread for you, but there was no other way it was going to be. I said it would get ugly. This fight breaks out almost every time white women are brought up, which is sad and ironic, but so it is.”

    What makes it ironic? I think it breaks out because people drag Black women into this by disrespecting us, so of course I have to defend Black women no one else will.

    Thank you for your encouragement, though I still don’t know if the right guy will ever come…i have no intention of being celibate virgin forever, sorry

    anyway, I started another blog: http://blackmenandblackwomen.wordpress.com/


  532. on Fri 3 Feb 2012 at 19:28:02 vanishing point.

    @Abagond “There is a line between pride in one’s race and racism and that line is at the word imply. Whites cross that line. In part because their pride in being White Americans is false and narcissistic and therefore in need of constant support – they suffer from Fragile White Ego Syndrome. Which is unfortunate for the rest of us given their military and media power.”

    I think it is helpful for white people to try and find ethnic pride, such as Irish step dancing, French food, Polka dancing, various ethnic languages other than English, ect.These can be tools to healthy identity for white people who want to shed “whiteness”, which isn’t really a race but a construct.


  533. @Vanishing Point

    The problem is; that those cultures aren’t really a large part of the american experience and they don’t view americans as part of their people regardless of heritage.

    Its like all those people down here who celebrate St. Patrick’s day and are proud of being Irish, Irish people don’t see them as Irish, they see them as americans.

    Its not like we have much to be proud of culturally from the white culture in the US, I mean, we got what, country music, mcdonalds and line dancing?

    And it doesn’t help we have a disposable cultural and are always changing, adapting, dropping, regurgitating old things etc…..you do what you like but is now out of date or not fashionable you lose social cred and become the butt of jokes.


  534. a lot of white people love st.patricks day…it was never a big deal to me, probably because i’m black.


  535. “One of the reasons why black women are perceived as being inferior to white women is because the positive efforts of black women are not highlighted in the media, even by black women themselves”
    ———————————————————————————————————————-

    I’ve read a few of your posts.

    The media is controlled and run mostly by white men, so what are you talking about?

    From reading some of your comments, I take it you are black, or maybe I am mistaken, but as a black man, black women’s positive efforts should be highlighted by black men too or maybe that is a job only for black women to do. Kind of pathetic when even SOME of our own black men cannot represent for us black women and SOME black men are dragging us down. Pathetic, weak and shameful.

    I say SOME black men, because we still have strong black men representing for us, but the weak ones just need to sit down with their lame, pathetic selves. They are the first ones to go around disrespecting black women and then complain that others are doing it.

    Disrespecting a black woman is disrespect to a black man, or maybe nobody ever told you guys. Pathetic.


  536. @ Peanut

    I know how you feel about black-women being disrespected (by SOME black men) on a group level.

    But I’m curious about how YOU feel about yourself as a black female INDIVIDUAL.

    Have you personally been on the receiving end – aside from any possibly perceived disrespect here – of a black man, or men, “bashing” YOU as an individual black woman?

    Did anyone you know personally tell you that they’d rather be with a white woman instead of having a relationship with you?


  537. @ Matari….yes

    this black guy (who i kinda think is unattractive now anyway) USED ME to get to my white friend once…and I was on the phone (on three way)) while they were talking and my white friend asked what he thought of me and he said some pretty rude and inaccurate things about me and I was on the line the whole time…

    he’s unattractive and short anyway…but yes that did happen to me once OF COURSE in high school I didn’t really think it was a race thing, I just thought perhaps he didn’t LIKE ME! But, now he’ joined a white fraternity and i saw on his face book page he has a bunch of white girl friends always posted so I really think he was just racist actually now…


  538. but most of the Black guys were not like that, they just got picked on a lot in school and stuff and degraded, so they stuck together. But yes there were the select few who exclusively dated non-black girls.

    But, we looked out for each other because it was such a white environment.


  539. I wasn’t really that into dating in high school, but it would have been nice to get some attention, I was kind of a nerd…and plus my brothers people were scared of them so…i didn’t get that many dates unfortunately…yeah but the couple guys I liked one evidently hated black women then other was dating ALL the girls constantly…just being a player and the one guy I really really liked who was a gentlemen and who was nice to me, he asked me to dance and stuff…and always gave me a hug when he saw me. He was nice, he was Jamaican though, my mother loved him. Anyway, we never formally dated probably because I was abstinent and a lot of guys around that age weren’t into that.

    He went to Stanford last I checked on his facebook looked like he had an asian girl friend so…


  540. then college was completely different, I got attention, but the wrong kind of attention…that’s when I had my first true kiss in college and my first sexual experience both with the same Black guy, he was an Afro-Arab guy. that’s another thing foreign Black men seem to find me more appealing than American Black men for some reason.

    but, i grew up my whole life in a predominately white environment thinking something was wrong with me, i wrote a little about it on my blog: http://blacknotwhitedippedinchocolate.wordpress.com/2011/06/26/white-doll-black-doll-test-i-failed/

    so to hear Black men going on EVIL RANTS against Black women on tv and all over the internet, it gets to me because I think of all the young Black girls who are going through what I went through and it’s so unfair to them…to have to deal with that.


  541. Yeah, I guess what I was saying about the paedophiles is that a paedophile is bad and should be locked up, but a PAEDOPHILE ENABLER is just as bad as a paedophile. I mean if you are being paid to kidnap people’s children, then that makes you a paedophile as well. Just saying since SAM brought up the topic of paedophiles.

    I think Abagond should make a separate post on that subject.


  542. and i’m not an ugly person in case any one is wondering…so that’s not the issue here. the issue is racist beauty standards that attack the dignity, self-esteem and self-worth of black girls and black women every where and then for some black men to jump on the bandwagon is COMPLETELY unacceptable.


  543. @ Peanut

    I think you need to find yourself beautiful, although to SOME people that would be classified as narcissism. I often find that the ones who themselves have a problem are the ones who go around finding and looking for faults in other people.

    Love yourself first and foremost and then I think you can ooze the self-confidence that people will see and love in you.

    I must admit that sometimes I have to take breaks from this blog, because the comments section gets HEAVY.


  544. I do find myself beautiful, but it’s not every day thing…sometimes you feel good about yourself, other times you don’t that’s normal. But the point is EVIL RANTS from Black men are not helping people, especially younger Black women than myself to have self-confidence.

    I think I do pretty good by myself, despite all the attacks..I’m not out here acting crazy, I still maintain my optimism to an extent….I know you’re trying to be positive but why AM I the one who needs to learn to love myself and get some self esteem…I’m not the one going around bashing entire groups of people…I think the Black men who hate themselves so much they can’t even find beauty in their own race of women and go around bashing them instead are the one who need some confidence and some soul searching


  545. @V-4

    “Its not like we have much to be proud of culturally from the white culture in the US, I mean, we got what, country music, mcdonalds and line dancing?”

    Uhm… what about American movies and rock/metal bands? I’m pretty sure they are quite popular worldwide. ;-)

    Yeah, I know white people didn’t invent rock, but they made it popular.


  546. I haven’t READ all of the comments yet, so someone may have already said something similar to the following:

    I don’t think the issue is so much that SOME black women are angry at black men for not protecting black women from SOME black men who bash/hate black women at the expense of white women.

    I think it goes way deeper than that.

    I think some black women hate that black men (as a group, or as individuals) cannot protect or rescue them from the harm, negativity that white supremacy inflicts upon them – and us.

    The BEST husbands (regardless of his color) cannot keep and protect his black female partner from the corrosive, weary, debilitating racist/inferior/BS messages that constantly comes at their loved one.

    But husbands are SUPPOSED to protect, preserve and save, right?

    If anyone has any ideas on how husbands can protect their wives, or how boyfriends can protect their girlfriends from this, I’m listening …

    The white doll, black doll test tells more than we generally think about …

    If SOME little girls (and boys!) grow up not liking themselves, what are their chances of growing up realistically capable of loving someone that looks like they do?

    SELF-HATE is a monster.

    And whiteness – is .. yep, you guessed it, DEMONIC.


  547. “But the point is EVIL RANTS from Black men are not helping people, especially younger Black women than myself to have self-confidence.”

    ————————————————————————————————————–

    @Peanut

    You are answering your own questions.

    Your self-esteem as a black woman or any other woman for that matter should not depend on the “EVIL RANTS” of SOME self-hating black men. If we all had to listen to their BS we would have all gone under a long time ago.

    My self-esteem and self-confidence does not depend on what an ignorant black man or ignorant white man thinks for that matter. I love myself REGARDLESS of what spews forth from ignorant mouths and minds and so should you.

    The reason why they spew forth nonsense is because they have issues with self. The sooner you realise that, the better off you will be. Stop worrying about what other people think and worry about what you are going to do or are doing with yourself.

    The days when I used to worry about which colour a person dates, gets married to or engages with are behind me. I don’t care what people do with their life. I’ve got to worry about what I do with mine.

    I have enough issues with myself that need to be corrected than sit here worrying about what knuckleheads think.

    That’s just my take on it.

    I’m a pretty laid back individual. Back to YouTube to listen to some JAMS.


  548. [...] “Black Men, White Women” by Abagond [...]


  549. Peanut: Ignore other people, their views and opinions and attitudes of what is beautiful and what is not. JUST SEARCH YOUR MIND AND INNER SOUL AND LEARN TO LOVE YOURSELF. Accept your shortcomings and mistakes, see beyond them, they will only guide you to the right path of self-acceptance and self-love.. Know yourself. It is the most important relationship you will ever have.


  550. Matari,

    I think of it simply as the debilitating long reach of WHITENESS –

    It’s beyond insidious!

    It’s everywhere … affecting everything … and everyone..

    … in one form, or another.

    Sexual (im)purity is not just about whiteness and racism. There’s a good deal of sexism in it. The mere idea that sex makes a woman “dirty” is sexist and it’s not just a white thing.

    That’s why I said that the belief that white women who are with black men are dirty is both racist and sexist.


  551. i see bm (satanforce with his momma videos) are doing what they do best: BLAMIING OTHER PEOPLE!!!


  552. This is getting pretty tense. I can only say this…

    I don’t know what to say except that only in a racist and sexist world would issues about interracial relationships become stressful and sometimes violent.

    I don’t want to steer off the subject, but this really shows that whiteness is indeed demonic when it causes people – all people to have negative emotions. These emotions can take a toll on one’s physical and psychological well-being. And before anyone says anything, I said whiteness, not white people, although many of them are disciples of their own monstrous god of whiteness.

    It takes long and hard efforts to escape the spell, and it may take the rest of your life to be “awaken” more so than you were in the past. And even then, you will still experience anger and sadness the likes you’ve never experienced before, but at least you feel that way with good reason.

    It shouldn’t matter whom anyone else date as long as they are genuinely in love and happy. So, why? Why does it pisses me off that I see brothers and sistas holding hands with non-blacks, especially whites? Why does a lot of the negative crap we hear about black men or black women come from other black men and black women? At the same time why do they put white people on fucking pedestals as if they are true examples of morality and civility as if they know how to love us more than we know how to love ourselves? Why?

    Because we are all BRAINWASHED to hate our blackness and love whiteness. Because the brainwashing machine is still operating at peak efficiency. Because the efforts to stop the machine are minimal. Because there are those that don’t want it to shut down as long as it brings power, wealth, and happiness to those who don’t truly deserve it.

    The issue of whom black people date and why is a byproduct of this machine. Black people can never truly be happy let alone individuals or fully human in this world for one reason or another. This is why I’m angry all the time. This is why I’m miserable all the time. And this is why I won’t give up deprogramming myself no matter how painful it becomes.

    *Exhales*


  553. “The mere idea that sex makes a woman “dirty” is sexist and it’s not just a white thing.”

    ***********************************

    It IS a white (whiteness) thing when a white woman is rendered dirty for being with a black man.


  554. on Sat 4 Feb 2012 at 04:13:19 vanishing point.

    “Its not like we have much to be proud of culturally from the white culture in the US, I mean, we got what, country music, mcdonalds and line dancing?”
    .

    well thought out response…


  555. matari,

    What i wonder is about the white women being “sullied” for being with a Black man, then basically what people are saying is Black women are dirtied already…the Jezebel stereotype….


  556. I do not like the way people equate Black men’s sexuality as being something inherently dirty, so that any woman who touches them is “dirtied,” i think it’s partly jealous because there is a stereotype that Black men are more well-endowed like someone else pointed out, I too think some of the men who say this are insecure…and on top of that Black women by default would already be “sullied” right along with Black men…if there is a negative stereotype about black men, black women always suffer right along with them…


  557. It IS a white (whiteness) thing when a white woman is rendered dirty for being with a black man.

    Yes, but the idea that sex can make a woman dirty is sexist. And while stormfront and other abominations claim the same for white men who date black women, white men aren’t seen as dirty for doing so because of the whole gender dynamics.

    Actually, I think black men and white women couples are interesting for this race/gender dynamics. On one hand, white women are white, but they are also women and lack male privilege. And black men are men but they are black so they lack white privilege.

    We have members of two groups that have the opposite positions withing two extremely important systems (race and gender). They both have one and lack one.

    I hope the actual individuals who are in this type of relationships are not fixated on these questions, but it’s sure interesting from anthropological point of view.


  558. with wm/bw black women have two strikes (being both female and black) white men have two privileges (white/male) one is in the least powerful group, the other the most powerful group…


  559. @ matari

    I think some black women hate that black men (as a group, or as individuals) cannot protect or rescue them from the harm, negativity that white supremacy inflicts upon them – and us.

    It goes a bit further than that. They base their expectations of black men on the supposed ability, desire and history of white men protecting white women.

    I responded to this above:

    http://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/01/27/black-men-white-women/#comment-110590

    http://abagond.wordpress.com/2012/01/27/black-men-white-women/#comment-110610

    And some more clowning of Black women haters:


  560. Apologies all,

    I see I posted a song on here that actually was meant for the open thread and had nothing at all to do with the conversation at hand.

    Second, and the main issue. You probably think that I don’t like black women too much, especially when I’m trolling Demerara and sepultura

    ? – I’ve made comments directly to you on other threads but not on here.

    Of course I say ridiculous things for my own amusement and people’s reactions

    Exactly. I’m pretty sure I recall ‘falling’ for one of your comments on another thread and then saying a couple of posts down that I wasnt sure where you were really coming from.


  561. “1) More BM date and marry interracially than BW.
    2) A minority of BM bash BW and praise non-BW.
    3) BW and BM exist in a society that was essentially created on racism (America would NOT exist as a first-world superpower without the unpaid labor and sacrifice of the “lower IQ-d” negroes.
    4) This racism permeates the way out society operates at both a micro and macro level, in ways that are blatant, subtle, and invisible; conscious, sub-conscious, and unconscious; but almost always in ways that we routinely deny or refuse to confront.
    5) This creates a unique situation for BW, who are both victims of misogyny by BM and racism by WM and WW i.e. intersectionality.
    6) Contrary to WM, BM do not on a MACRO SCALE come to the support and defense of BW.
    7) Point 6, coupled with points 1 and 2, = justification for BW to hold personal opinions about BM/non-BW pairings.
    8) You routinely and completely deny any rationale for BW to care or have negative feelings towards BM/non-BW relationships, despite points 1 and 2 being 100% provably true, and point 6? Your anecdotal evidence of BM who defend BW can be far outmatched by the anecdotal evidence I can find of the reverse, I’m sure.”

    @Suzy
    1) True-and as I said before this is something that BW need to take up with WM. Or put another way evidently more WW find BM attractive than BW find WM attractive. Interesting, that.

    2) True for any group so totally irrelevant.

    3) There were other reasons but not worth debating here.

    4) Not true-some people do not deny and do confront. You can’t make that claim about everyone. You can’t make the claim , implicit here, that racism alone determines who we find attractive. There are a multitude of factors. There are racists who date and marry interracially. There are non-racists that would never date/marry interracially because they simply aren’t attracted to others in that way. People are complex.

    5) Again, also true of any other group. BM are victims of racism from whites and misandry from BW. Oh the humanity!!!.

    6) False-as has been shown by other commenters. I notice that you have also not commented on the unique media access given to some black women to complain about/bash black men and whine incessantly about essentially personal romantic issues.

    7) WHOA. Wrong. There is no justification for bigotry or worrying about who someone else is sleeping with. That’s a conclusion which is not justified by any of your premises. BW do not get a pass from the expectation that every human being on this planet gets to decide for himself/herself who they find attractive and act accordingly. You can’t allow bigotry for one group of people and deny it for others. You can’t allow freedom for one group of people and deny it for others. Some WM hate BM/WW relationships for many of the same fallacious reasons that you do.

    8) No I routinely deny any rationale for any human being to spend his or her time worrying about who another human being (who is not with them) is sleeping with or dating. This IS an ideal; many of us have bigotries and insecurities. But to let these dominate us or turn them into public policy debates as some have done here is pathetic.


  562. @brothawolf

    No point in being angry all the time….Angry sometimes, I understand, but angry all the time is destructive, it really is.

    But yeah, I see what you are saying. These topics bring out the emotions in people, understandably so.

    LOL @ brainwashing machine. I have no doubt that there is one.


  563. The Black Man always has an excuse for the dirt that he does. All this white supremacy this and white supremacy that. The white man is not making the Black man bash their own Black Women to White folks. He is doing that on his own. And did I read on here that a Black man blamed his own mother for the bad way he treated women? Cuz the mother was not affectionate? Not that she abused him or neglacted him but wasnt affectionate (but all while feeding him and taking care of him). ONLY A BLACK MAN WOULD BLAME HIS OWN MOTHER FOR HIS MISTREATING OTHER PEOPLE!!!!

    BV


  564. @brothawolf:

    “The issue of whom black people date and why is a byproduct of this machine. Black people can never truly be happy let alone individuals or fully human in this world for one reason or another. This is why I’m angry all the time. This is why I’m miserable all the time. And this is why I won’t give up deprogramming myself no matter how painful it becomes.”

    This is why we must work against the System and its systematic racism. One day it will be done, but perhaps not in our life time, but we, I must work to demolish it in my head and in my mind, in this world. Perhaps my effort is just a tiny pitiful push, nothing more than a small scratch, but when enough small people push, it begins the shake the very foundations of the System.

    Bit by bit, chip by chip, the System wears out. Sure, it still seems to be unmovable and all mighty, but so have many others in the past. Sure, the System can still strike back and unleash its hounds, use the propaganda and more subtle ways, but when people spread the word, ask the questions, tell the truth it becomes harder and harder for the System to maintain its control.

    I belive that one day black people, all people can be happy and fully human, but it takes time. None of us asked to be born today to this world at this time and age but neither did those who fought against slavery, racism and unequality in the past. Those men and women in the past decided to change the world, some more overtly, some by all means at their disposal, but many many in their own lives.

    We know the leaders, the heroic men and women who fought the System and risked their lives for it, BUT we do know that there were thousands and thousands nameless people, small people who did it in their lives. Perhaps there was a bussdriver who did let blacks to sit anywhere in his buss, perhaps there was a black lady who went to shop in a store previously preserved for whites only. Perhaps there was a guy who went to sit to a seat preserved only for whites, perhaps there was a woman who decided to serve black customers at diner. Perhaps there were guys at the factory who said: “This is bullshit” and realised that they were all workers, regardless of their skin color.

    We know they were there, everyday, on the streets and working places, those un sung heroes who broke trough the race barrier and decided that in their own lives at least they won’t separate people by the color, they won’t obey race lines, barriers, customs, habits, rules, social convetions, and it is because of those people, ordinary people with ordinary lives, we are here today, discussin about these things TOGETHER.

    True, there is a lot to do, we still have a long way, but we get there. Perhaps are grand kids get there, or their grand kids! One day we will be there. All we can do and all we must do in our life time is to stand up against racism, sexism and unequality every day, in those small supposedly insignificant things and moments.

    Why not sit next to fellow man in a bar or bus or subway no matter what the color of that man? Why not help the black mother who is struggling with her grocery bags and kids? Small things but they are all signals. They are signs. Ten people see those things around us. They tell about them to another ten, twenty people: “Hey, guess what I saw? I saw these black dudes helping this white woman today”, “I saw this white guy give her seat to this black woman” etc. They are signs that the System is not in control, that the System is not almighty and most of all: They are signs which shot loud and clear that WE ARE THE PEOPLE. Not the System.

    Sorry about the preaching again. I just got carried away.


  565. @S-Force

    “Black men are supposed to be able to protect black women, as if they have same level of power, and ability to bend the law as white men can, when white men don’t even protect their own women.

    Where exactly are these examples of white men defending their women’s dignity?”

    **********************************

    In the MINDS of some people.

    It’s an abstract that’s embedded/culled in SOME of the current culture that seeks to understand or justify why one group IS more valued, cherished and seemingly desired more than the OTHER group.

    WM – DON’T NEED TO – defend WW’s honor/maidenhood from systemic horrors/acts of racism – because no such system exists.

    WW are not held in low regard/esteem on a systemic, wide global scale.

    @ Brothawolf

    Hang in there Brotha! Take some time-outs as needed. We all need healthy breaks/diversions from excruciating reality every now and then.

    STRESS will exact a toll on our bodies if we don’t find things/people that help us to laugh, smile and feel invigorated/recharged. Laughter was a key component in our ancestors’ ability to survive this nonsense.

    Do/find what works for you that negates your stress levels.
    We need you and your strong voice to remain strong in the struggle, but not at the expense of your wellness.
    : )


  566. “Peanut

    with wm/bw black women have two strikes (being both female and black) white men have two privileges (white/male) one is in the least powerful group, the other the most powerful group…”

    *********************************

    …and yet when wm/bw marry, they have one of the lowest divorce rates??
    Hmmmm … I could see how this would BE interesting, from an anthropological point of view… of course.


  567. on Sat 4 Feb 2012 at 14:06:13 Jack in the Box

    On top of the internalized racism, and the white women stereotypes, don’t forget that white women can be gold diggers just as good as the rest of the other gold diggers out there, so when they see that red convertible BMW or Benz, and that gold Rolex, they will be setting their target on Black/White/Red/Yellow…whoever that poor dude happens to be, to get their golden ticket to a life of luxury.


  568. on Sat 4 Feb 2012 at 14:09:43 Jack in the Box

    That’s probably why the following is true,

    “But for black women with a university degree, the loss of black men with the same or better education to white women is considerable and not imagined.”

    The educated Black men will be the ones driving the Benz or wearing the Rolexes.


  569. on Sat 4 Feb 2012 at 14:09:48 Dr. Grzlickson

    WM are not attracted to BW. It’s hilarious to hear BW say WM are “too intimidated to approach them” or some such nonsense. There is simply no interest. I know the commenters here love to imagine WM desperately trying to get with BW and not succeeding, like BW are the ones making the choice.


  570. @Matari

    “WW are not held in low regard/esteem on a systemic, wide global scale.”

    Huh? Do you understand what sexism is? Double standards based on gender? Income inequality? Gender roles? Rape culture? Being perceived as less intelligent and more emotional? Being judged by the way you look not based on what you have accomplished?

    That’s not systematic and global?


  571. SHONDA,

    ONLY A BLACK MAN WOULD BLAME HIS OWN MOTHER FOR HIS MISTREATING OTHER PEOPLE!!!!

    Sorry, but this just isn’t true. White people blame their parents all the time for this. “Yes, I treat women like crap, but that’s because my mother didn’t treat me well”.

    The only difference is that in the case of whites, people are often willing to give them a pass for this – hey, he had a bad childhood, give him a break, ok? While in the case of black men (or black people in general) this isn’t seen as a valid excuse.

    Matari,

    …and yet when wm/bw marry, they have one of the lowest divorce rates??
    Hmmmm … I could see how this would BE interesting, from an anthropological point of view… of course.

    Yes, this is interesting. I have my ideas why this might be the case, but Abagond said black women are off topic for this thread.


  572. Eco,

    Are YOU a white woman?

    ——

    What I thought I was expressing, but obviously not very clearly to some, is that WW aren’t, I repeat – are NOT – systemically discriminated against on the basis of race. Go back and reread the sentence BEFORE the one you quoted as it may assist in seeing the quoted sentence in context.

    http://racetraitor.org/abolish.html


  573. @Matari

    “WM – DON’T NEED TO – defend WW’s honor/maidenhood from systemic horrors/acts of racism – because no such system exists.
    WW are not held in low regard/esteem on a systemic, wide global scale.”

    You wrote that as a reply to:

    “Black men are supposed to be able to protect black women, as if they have same level of power, and ability to bend the law as white men can, when white men don’t even protect their own women.
    Where exactly are these examples of white men defending their women’s dignity?”

    Your argument, that white women do not need to be protected because they are not negatively affected by racism doesn’t make sense. There is a similar system they DO need to be protected from and it’s called sexism.


  574. “Your argument, that white women do not need to be protected because they are not negatively affected by racism doesn’t make sense.”

    ********************************

    Actually, I’m NOT arguing.. especially not with you.
    It doesn’t make sense to Eco, but it makes perfect sense to me.

    Are YOU a white woman?


  575. “It doesn’t make sense to Eco, but it makes perfect sense to me.”

    Can’t say I’m surprised…
    I know you do not really see the point in defining what a word means, but I do think you should know that “argument” can also mean: “a set of statements in which one follows logically as a conclusion from the others”.

    “Are YOU a white woman?”

    No, I’m a white man.


  576. “No, I’m a white man.”

    ***********************
    Okay. Thank you.

    As a white man have you ever wanted to, or rather – have you ever felt a need to protect your WHITE wife, mother, sister, daughter, niece, girlfriend or grand-daughter from the non-stop raging, ravaging, ruinous effects of systemic racism?


  577. @eco
    you’re right that white women have to function under a sexist system. as do all women–including black women. and as minority women black women must also function under a racist system. adding for clarity.


  578. @Matari

    Define “racism”. Is it the only thing black women need to be protected from?

    @temple

    I agree with every word.


  579. @Dr. Grzlickson

    WM are not attracted to BW. It’s hilarious to hear BW say WM are “too intimidated to approach them” or some such nonsense. There is simply no interest. I know the commenters here love to imagine WM desperately trying to get with BW and not succeeding, like BW are the ones making the choice.

    LOL the post is about WW and BM yet you come on here discussing BW and WM and acting as though its so abhorent to you yet I KNOW that this is not the first time you have commented on this subject such is your obsession and preoccupation with this topic.

    This is all encompassing to you, I can assure you, for most BW they are not bothered what the hell you think or want. I suspect that most women generally dont care for your opinion either, regardless of race so we have you coming on here making your embittered observations as the females that you really want to notice you, are not. Stop taking your rage out on BW – for every frightened WM like you, there are strong decent men just around the corner.

    BTW, ask around even on this blog, which is a teeny tiny example of worldwide opinion and you will find more than one commenter who refutes your generalisation of all WM. Keep telling yourself that WW like you dont want BW and one day, you might just believe it.


  580. ^

    Should read:-

    Keep telling yourself that WM like you dont want BW and one day, you might just believe it


  581. SHONDA says,
    The Black Man always has an excuse for the dirt that he does. All this white supremacy this and white supremacy that. The white man is not making the Black man bash their own Black Women to White folks. He is doing that on his own. And did I read on here that a Black man blamed his own mother for the bad way he treated women? Cuz the mother was not affectionate? Not that she abused him or neglacted him but wasnt affectionate (but all while feeding him and taking care of him). ONLY A BLACK MAN WOULD BLAME HIS OWN MOTHER FOR HIS MISTREATING OTHER PEOPLE!!!!

    laromana says,
    Shonda,
    I strongly agree with your EXCELLENT comments.
    ANTI- BW BM are the ONLY men who PUBLICLY trash the humanity, dignity, and femininity of their SAME RACE women and ACCEPT/CONDONE ANTI-BW HATE from others.

    Obviously, this DISGUSTING/DESPICABLE ANTI- BW mistreatment from ANTI- BW BM isn’t the “SAME” as when a NON-BP “blames” their parents for shortcomings in their lives.

    Matari says,

    In the MINDS of some people.

    It’s an abstract that’s embedded/culled in SOME of the current culture that seeks to understand or justify why one group IS more valued, cherished and seemingly desired more than the OTHER group.

    WM – DON’T NEED TO – defend WW’s honor/maidenhood from systemic horrors/acts of racism – because no such system exists.

    WW are not held in low regard/esteem on a systemic, wide global scale.

    Eco,

    Are YOU a white woman?

    ——

    What I thought I was expressing, but obviously not very clearly to some, is that WW aren’t, I repeat – are NOT – systemically discriminated against on the basis of race. Go back and reread the sentence BEFORE the one you quoted as it may assist in seeing the quoted sentence in context.

    laromana says,
    Matari,
    Your EXCELLENT comments about the SINGULAR experience of ANTI-BW HATE that ALL BW face/have HISTORICALLY faced in America, are CLEAR/EASY to UNDERSTAND.

    I find it ENFURIATING when INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST ANTI-BW HATERS seek to MINIMIZE/DISMISS the UNIQUE RACISM/SEXISM that ONLY BW are/have been HISTORICALLY subjected to and PRETEND that it’s the “SAME” as a WP’S experience (even though White privilege ensures that NO WP is mistreated the SAME way BW are/have HISTORICALLY been mistreated).


  582. The Black Man always has an excuse for the dirt that he does.

    Yes he does. That might explain the bacon strips stains in his underwear. The white man however, is the filthiest! He has both bacon stains and urine stains in his underwear. The asian man is up their with them as they belch constantly and leave the toilet seat up! The ‘latinos’ are nastier as they belch and fart! It is debatable however who is the filthiest out of the lot ;depending on what a women considers the most gross types of behaviour will influence the order of who is the worst!

    All this white supremacy this and white supremacy that.

    Oh no, they are self-annihilators and self-sexualizers as per Thordaddy. You can add yourself to that list!

    The white man is not making the Black man bash their own Black Women to White folks. He is doing that on his own.

    Who initially taught him to bash the black woman?

    ONLY A BLACK MAN WOULD BLAME HIS OWN MOTHER FOR HIS MISTREATING OTHER PEOPLE!!!!

    I beg to differ. Look at Ted Bundy and all the rest of the white serial killers. They all blame their mothers! They have KILLED, hundreds if not thousands of people combined.


  583. Are YOU a white woman?

    I think ‘she’ is. If she isn’t, ‘she’ should be so she can employ ‘white women’s tears’ to get ‘her’ points across.

    No, I’m a white man.

    You can still use the ‘white woman tears’!

    Matari doesn’t have to do anything. ‘White woman tears do not work on him even though you are a ‘white man’.


  584. white people blame their parents when their parents are abusive or neglect them. The poster said his mother was NOT AFFECTIONATE.


  585. If white women need to be protected from sexism then I wonder WHO they actually need to be protected from. Black men aren’t responsible for the social marginalization, neither are men from any other minority group. Do tell.


  586. Dr. Grzlickson says,

    WM are not attracted to BW. It’s hilarious to hear BW say WM are “too intimidated to approach them” or some such nonsense. There is simply no interest. I know the commenters here love to imagine WM desperately trying to get with BW and not succeeding, like BW are the ones making the choice.

    Demerera says,
    Should read:-

    Keep telling yourself that WM like you dont want BW and one day, you might just believe it

    laromana says,
    EXCELLENT response, Demerera.
    ALL American men have been BRAINWASHED to “NOT be attracted”/or EVEN be able to ADMIT when they’re attracted to BW (but they’re “MAGICALLY” attracted to ALL NON-BW).

    Dr. G.’s comments are a not so “hilarious” example of this ANTI-BW BRAINWASHING “nonsense” in action.
    Fortunately, not ALL American men have CHOSEN to give in to ANTI-BW BRAINWASHING.


  587. WM are not attracted to BW. It’s hilarious to hear BW say WM are “too intimidated to approach them” or some such nonsense. There is simply no interest. I know the commenters here love to imagine WM desperately trying to get with BW and not succeeding, like BW are the ones making the choice.

    First of all, lets get the greetings out of the way. Where have you been Dr. Grzlickson, on vacation? If so, I hope you had a good time! Refreshed? As usual you are your curmudgeonly self! Good to see somethings never change! I like consistency. Now, onto your remarks!

    Firstly, who gives a sheet what you or your ilk like. Perhaps women like ‘Shonda’ do. I agree with you when you say it is hilarious that bw complain about white men not approaching them. You know why? If a real man likes you, he will throw caution to the wind and approach you regardless of racial, cultural, ethnic characteristics a woman may have. That’s not to say you will entertain his requests. Men are individuals who will do what they have to do to get a leg over! Those that are bogged down with racist, or other ideological views ain’t getting that much. Women who have desperation stamped on their foreheads tend to scare even the horniest man off. So it is six of one and half a dozen of the others!

    Now that we know your views on bw and wm, what are your views on bm and ww? After all, this is what the post is actually about.


  588. Who initially taught him to bash the black woman?

    I guess the answer is the white man huh? black men are just brainless tools of the white man that cant make not one single discision. u are a sick peice of work. i dont blame the white man for the CHOICES black men make on their own. black men may not control alot of things but they do control what comes out of their mouths.


  589. and by the way, most serial killers blame PORN and not their families.


  590. Shady Grady

    said

    “5) Again, also true of any other group. BM are victims of racism from whites and misandry from BW. Oh the humanity!!!”

    Misandry that’s laughable…


  591. Firstly, who gives a sheet what you or your ilk like. Perhaps women like ‘Shonda’ do

    DO NOT USE MY NAME IN ANY OF YOUR POST!!!


  592. “Dr. Grzlickson says,

    WM are not attracted to BW. It’s hilarious to hear BW say WM are “too intimidated to approach them” or some such nonsense. There is simply no interest. I know the commenters here love to imagine WM desperately trying to get with BW and not succeeding, like BW are the ones making the choice.”

    what makes you think Black women want white men? Most Black women (in my experience) DON’T want white men…


  593. I guess the answer is the white man huh?

    No actually, it’s Cthulu!

    black men are just brainless tools of the white man that cant make not one single discision

    Most men can’t dear, that’s the point, they are ALL brainless tolls. It isn’t racial!

    u are a sick peice of work

    I try my best!!

    i dont blame the white man for the CHOICES black men make on their own.

    Maybe you should, it will make you feel better. Perhaps a white man like Dr. Grizlickson may ask you for a date! You can sit around over dinner complaining about and denigrating black men!

    black men may not control a lot of things but they do control what comes out of their mouths.

    Show me a man who can control his mouth who is not a politician. It is apparent you have not been around many men in general in any meaningful way. If you were, you would not have these maniacal viewpoints in regards to black men. You and others of your ilk (sgt willie peaks in drag), have a hate on for black men . But you are their female versions. You are in essence two peas in a pod. As others have written here, look to yourself, stop listening and worrying about what others say or do. You will notice a great improvement in your life. If black men are such dastardly dogs, you should put them out of your mind and breath a sigh of relief that you don’t have to deal with them anymore.


  594. SHONDA / ANGEL / ciara / ashante / jasmine / stacy / Lenny
    is hereby banned for using sock puppets.

    They were all the same person.


  595. @laramona

    Dr. G.’s comments are a not so “hilarious” example of this ANTI-BW BRAINWASHING “nonsense” in action.

    I know, methinks the fella doth protest too much. LOL


  596. @WarrenAZ

    Women should be protected from sexist men. Since some men from minority groups uphold sexist beliefs and benefit from male privilege they are a part of the problem. White men have more power, sure, but that doesn’t mean they have all the power.

    @Herneith

    Are you about to make a point or do you simply enjoy being incoherent?


  597. “what makes you think Black women want white men? Most Black women (in my experience) DON’T want white men…”

    Well, certainly not the ones that wear dresses or molest children or the ones that stalk across the Internet or offline.

    It’s getting hot in here once again.


  598. Are you about to make a point or do you simply enjoy being incoherent?

    I enjoy being incoherent when responding to incoherent posts which have nothing to do with the post at hand which is….. black men and white women, not sexism. Sexism is a topic in and of itself. But being a white man you enjoy diverting the topics at hand if they don’t include whites being beleaguered in some way shape or fashion. The old ‘But that happens to me to!’ dictum.


  599. @Herneith

    How is racism part of this topic, if sexism isn’t? Both “-isms” obviously affect BM-WW relationships. I’m not “diverting the topics” by talking about white women and how sexism affects them and their relationships.


  600. “I enjoy being incoherent when responding to incoherent posts which have nothing to do with the post at hand which is….. black men and white women, not sexism. Sexism is a topic in and of itself. But being a white man you enjoy diverting the topics at hand if they don’t include whites being beleaguered in some way shape or fashion. The old ‘But that happens to me to!’ dictum.”

    ********************************
    Exactly.. Thank you, Herneith

    Eco – how come you’re the only one up in here that’s not seeing that the topic at hand is a RACE based discussion, and not one that is focused on sexism?

    Perhaps you need to take another glimpse at Abagond’s post at the top of this thread?


  601. @demerara

    I’m sorry. I’ve just been extremely defensive.

    SHONDA / ANGEL / ciara / ashante / jasmine / stacy / Lenny
    is hereby banned for using sock puppets.
    They were all the same person.

    Though I am not surprised, I’m still pleased that it is just ONE person, and not many.


  602. @Satanforce

    @demerara

    I’m sorry. I’ve just been extremely defensive.

    I must confess to being confused. What is it that I have said that has made you feel that way? I dont prophes to being an ‘angel’ by any means but I havent challenged you directly on this particular thread…


  603. @Matari

    Count the comments that mention the idea that women need to be protected or supported by men, that the men of their race are mistreating them. Sexism may not be explicitly mentioned in these comments, but whenever you are discussing male privilege, gender roles, gender inequality and gender specific stereotypes (Sapphire, Jezebel, white women are easier to get along with, etc.) sexism IS a factor.

    It seems that whenever something hurts black people you see it simply as “racism”/”whiteness”, but people who actually understand the meanings of the words they are using should be able to notice the situation is more complex.


  604. It seems that whenever something hurts black people you see it simply as “racism”/”whiteness”, but people who actually understand the meanings of the words they are using should be able to notice the situation is more complex.

    Of course the situation is more complex and many do see that. However, and I reiterate, this is about racist perceptions, and what propels this particular combination to enter these relationships. What are the societal and personal ramifications, what are the dynamics. The sexism aspects should be apparent to all or most, but again this is a post that focuses on the racial aspects of these relationships. That is how you are diverting the discussion.


  605. “SHONDA / ANGEL / ciara / ashante / jasmine / stacy / Lenny
    is hereby banned for using sock puppets.
    They were all the same person.”

    I told you this post will bring out some deluded and bitter BWE’s (including jorbia and Laromana) and the white supremacists, seperatist etc.

    Seriously these guys and girls need to get a life.


  606. Firstly, who gives a sheet what you or your ilk like. Perhaps women like ‘Shonda’ do

    SHONDA replied

    DO NOT USE MY NAME IN ANY OF YOUR POST!!!

    I LOLed.

    I enjoy being incoherent when responding to incoherent posts which have nothing to do with the post at hand which is….. black men and white women, not sexism. Sexism is a topic in and of itself. But being a white man you enjoy diverting the topics at hand if they don’t include whites being beleaguered in some way shape or fashion. The old ‘But that happens to me to!’ dictum.

    Yup. She kills it again.

    @ laromana et al.

    I do not blame anyone. Anyone can see that Bill Bellamy’s character is a neurotic who needs to resolve those issues like a grown man should. Nor am I trying to start some chicken-and-egg, “my pain is greater than yours” argument.

    What I am saying is, single black mothers, in raising their sons, tend focus more on the physical and material well being of their sons, at the expense of their emotional and psychological well-being. This, is at times, compounded by verbal and emotional abuse, based on the mother’s feelings about her babyfathers.

    What is necessary is an examination at this time, of black motherhood, if you want to understand why dysfunctional black men want to be with white women (a more appropriate title for this post.)

    One solution, as to what type of sacrifices should be made, would be to observe a different type of relationship between a white woman and a black man – that of Ann Dunham and her son, Barack Obama. I f anyone can suggest a similar one of a single black mother and her son, please add it also.


  607. @ vindicator

    Nah.. I think laromana is cool. Jorbia on the other hand….


  608. SHONDA / ANGEL / ciara / ashante / jasmine / stacy / Lenny
    is hereby banned for using sock puppets.
    They were all the same person.

    Okay. I recognize SHONDA, ANGEL, and ashante, but those other names are unfamiliar. Whoever this person is or was had serious issues as do all trolls.

    I thought “ashante” was starting to learn a little something. At first I thought she/he was a troll, but then she/he started to be more open. Looks like the troll tribunal is in full operation.

    Sam, Matari, and Happiness,

    Thanks for your responses.


  609. -Eco

    “It seems that whenever something hurts black people you see it simply as “racism”/”whiteness”,..”

    ******************************

    I try to write as simple/concise as possible. I notice that SOME readers/posters have a tendency to see things that weren’t written, and not see things that were written.

    And yes, I DO believe that whiteness/white supremacy is near, or at, the root of *much* of what’s wrong in America, and *much* of the world.

    (Of course this doesn’t mean that only white people are bad and everyone else is especially wonderful,)


  610. Matari,

    Sexism is rarely discussed on this blog, in part, I believe, because Abagond himself is sexist (this isn’t me accusing him, he admitted it himself). So obviously he won’t write posts from a POV of someone who challenges sexism.

    Personally, I believe the ill-treatment of black women in society isn’t only about them being black, but also about them being women, but for some reason this subject is rarely talked about around here.

    Also, I believe the bad way some black men treat black women (including, but not limited, to those who date white women exclusively) is in part about sexism and not just racism*. To deny it is sexist on itself, and men who do it are displaying the signs of their own male privilege.

    *- That being said, I don’t think black men are more sexist than the whites.


  611. @ Mira

    ‘Matari,

    Sexism is rarely discussed on this blog, in part,”

    ***********************

    What about on the open thread??
    Can’t you discuss it there?


  612. You can discuss it, but that’s not the point. The point is, blog posts are rarely, if ever, about sexism and visitors don’t seem to be interested in discussing it (even on threads where that is on topic, such as this one, or any of the “most gorgeous women” posts – though those posts do have visitors talking about it).

    And no, I don’t have a special need to talk about it. It’s not really something I think about that often and, strangely enough, it’ snot something that particularly affects me (or maybe I don’t see it). I just think it’s not off topic on certain threads, such as this one. It doesn’t mean we have to talk about it, but I’m confused why people think it’s irrelevant for the discussion.

    (Oh, in case I wasn’t clear, I’m mainly talking about sexism against black women and not the white ones).


  613. “The point is, blog posts are rarely, if ever, about sexism and visitors don’t seem to be interested in discussing it ..”

    ****************************

    Are you really talking about sexism, or feminism – or both?

    “but I’m confused why people think it’s irrelevant for the discussion. ”

    I could be incorrect, but I suspect THAT discussion, at best, is murky, super-complicated, rife with unapparent sink-holes and land-mines full of kryptonite radiation waiting to devastate any unwise fool navigating those unexposed terrors without a definitive and indestructible map!

    In other words, discerning folks know where not to go.


  614. all the women are white, all blacks are men, but some of us are brave: http://www.amazon.com/But-Some-Us-Are-Brave/dp/0912670959/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1328422570&sr=8-1

    this book discusses sexism and racism and beauty standards…beauty standards (which are sexist) play big role in why white women are seen as the epitome of everything for SOME Black men…beauty standards and status


  615. vindicator says,
    I told you this post will bring out some deluded and bitter BWE’s (including jorbia and Laromana) and the white supremacists, seperatist etc.

    laromana says,
    Hey v.,
    Learn to READ,take your own DELUSIONAL/IDIOTIC/UNSOLICITED “advice” and shove it.

    YOU DON’T KNOW ME SO STOP MISREPRESENTING WHAT I’ve SAID.

    If you’re an ANTI-BW HATER BM and don’t like my views on these types of POS’s, that’s on YOU, but I/ANY BW who feels like me, have the RIGHT to TAKE OFFENSE/DEFEND OURSELVES AGAINST ANY ANTI-BW HATERS including ANTI-BW HATER BM.

    GET OVER YOURSELF!

    S-force,
    BW have not only SUCCESSFULLY raised MANY BM/BW, at GREAT SACRAFICE to themselves, but they’ve also helped to effectively raise MANY WP’S/NON-BP’S children.

    Why don’t you examine the MANY MISSING ANTI-BW BM who FOR YEARS have CHOSEN to ABANDON BW/THEIR RESPONSIBILITIES to FATHER THEIR children and FORCED them to raise these children as SINGLE mothers, BEFORE you dare BLAME BW for BM’s “dysfunction” (ie.CHOOSING to REJECT BW(because they’re BLACK)/ONLY dating/marrying WW/OTHER NON-BW (because they HATE BW/these women are NOT BLACK).

    Also,DmbA, why don’t you ask yourself why WM who are raised by dysfunctional WW don’t CHOOSE to REJECT WW(because they’re WHITE)/ONLY date/marry BW/OTHER NON-WW (because they HATE WW/these women are NOT WHITE).

    ANTI-BW BM are SOLELY RESPONSIBLE for their ANTI-BW HATE and need to learn that they OWE BW THEIR LIVES/ALL DUE RESPECT.


  616. @Peanut

    What you all offered was not support, just nice things to do. There are women who aren’t black doing the same things (providing an accurate historical account, speaking up against stereotypes of black men and legal abuse). When you look at the issues that are unique to black men there is no support you can offer. They need more than the collective of black women can give and its their responsibility and right to create solutions without black women interfering. How you and other black women feel about being left out of the loop shouldn’t be a priority right now. They’ll have a hard enough time getting each other on the same page as it is. In a way your position is intrusive. I’m not saying this to be mean but your concern for the future of black men should be limited to the black men in your life. You aren’t a true martyr for cause anyway so again, why assume the position? Let black men be men and don’t meddle in their affairs. I think this might be the hardest lesson for black women who feel they way you do to learn. You’re too worried about what they have to say instead of what they have to do and they can’t and get anything done while trying to make us feel good about being black women and “uplifting” us.

    @Eco

    White women are not disadvantaged by male privilege from minorities men anymore than they are racism from minority women. You want (maybe even demand) these less prominent groups of men to help shoulder a burden they didn’t create for white women and that in itself is white privilege.


  617. @Mira

    I look forward to your perspectives on that subject. I’ll admit its something I haven’t given a lot of thought to.


  618. WarrenAZ, it was support period.


  619. Eriq Lasalle statements in Ebony August 1999 issue

    “The issue I had was that the show has, in my opinion, not shown a three-dimensional, balanced, black-on-black relationship. As a matter of fact, I just felt that the two relationships that I had with Black women were very dysfunctional, and not explored. And when I got into interracial relationship, I thought it was a much better written story line. I think Black women are so sensitive to seeing interracial relationships because they feel they’re getting the short end of the stick.”

    “I hated ending something that was working, but I felt there was a greater issue. I felt we were inadvertently sending a very strange message that I wasn’t comfortable with, which is: Here’s a successful Black man who can only have dysfunctional relationships with Black women. But, when he dates outside his race, he is more vulnerable, more open, sweeter, more romantic, sensual. All the things I think are false. I feel it’s a shame we can’t point to a positive, three-dimensional, fully developed Black-on-Black relationship in recent memory. As a Black artist and as a Black man, I do have a responsibility to my community not to perpetuate things that are detrimental to my community and myself.”


  620. ” In a way your position is intrusive. I’m not saying this to be mean but your concern for the future of black men should be limited to the black men in your life. You aren’t a true martyr for cause anyway so again, why assume the position? Let black men be men and don’t meddle in their affairs”

    Response:

    WarrenAZ,

    “yeah thanks and everything, but i’m going to continue to support Black men and here is the reason why. When I have a black son, black brothers, black fathers the way society sees Black men as a whole is the way they will be seen. As long as we live in a white s-premacist culture, I have a responsibility to support Black men because when a Black man is pulled over and has his car searched, when he’s refused a job for no reason other than he’s Black, when he is not allowed into a building for wearing a hoodie, when he is taken off the street by police because they’ve confused him with some other 6 foot black man who is wanted on some criminal charge (because to some people all black men look a like anyway) I have to fight that because that Black guy that that stuff happens to could be my son, my boyfriend, my brother, my father and all the Black men I care about so I will continue to SUPPORT Black men and continue to be an ally to them…not a mammy, an ally and as a long as we live in a white s-premacist culture…that will not change period.

    This is why IN GENERAL non-Black women do not support Black men in the same way that Black women do simply because it doesn’t affect their lives the way it affects Black women’s lives…Black men aren’t their brothers, fathers and most of them don’t even have black boyfriends or husbands (as abagond pointed out in the online dating survey white women are not running after Black men, it’s some Black men who are running after them)…so in general non-black women are not interconnected with black men the way Black women ARE. I have a reason to support and be allied with Black men because they’re an important part of my life, all of the men that I care about and have SUPPORTED ME are Black. Non-black women look out (for the most part) for THEIR sons, their husbands, their brothers…throughout history and in the present day Black women (in general) stand with Black men because we have to in a white suprem-cist/ racist society.

    and if you want the definition of support, you can look it up yourself and you’ll notice all of the things I mentioned in my post will fit under a definition. ”

    YOU may not feel obligated to “support” Black men, and that’s your right…but I do and I will continue to do so. Thank you.


  621. why does my comment keep going into moderation I edited it and posted it again and it still went to moderation…i didn’t use any profanity or anything in it…so why is it going to moderation?


  622. i’m sorry abagond i posted the same comment twice, but i edited one, so the one in moderation you can toss out.


  623. and YOU may not feel the need to “support” (or what ever you want to call it “doing nice things” ) Black men and that’s fine for you Warren Az, but FOR ME, I will continue to SUPPORT Black men as long as it’s necessary in this white supremac-st world that we live in and I will continue to speak out and voice my concerns about Black people and the mistreatment of Black women.


  624. I found that article from Ebony about Eriq Lasalle on google books, I found them very telling. It was basically confirmation that what I’m seeing on TV is not just me and I’m not crazy.

    I truly believe the media has a problem showing positive Black-Black relationships, but shows interracial relationships as being more functional and well-rounded. such an unbalanced representation is sending a warped message, I agree with Lasalle.


  625. This thread and posting has been very tough to get through due to its length and my ancient PC, but I have finally made it to the end and given everything I have read some real thought.

    I find myself agreeing with seemingly opposing views on the matter and have to conclude that that is due to my own upbringing. I was raised to think critically; one of the quotes I remember most from my dad is “There is a brain in your head for a reason, son. Use it!” and another one is “Think about how what you will say and do will affect others!” I have done my best and sometimes failed in trying to keep both of those in mind but, I do keep trying and learning.

    One view is that some BM/WW couples actively direct hateful remarks and stereotypes on BW, and mostly for reasons that are not very well thought out. There has to be a slight few who have had horrible experiences covering all their past(s) and it is very hard to get over that and see that not all BW are like the ones those experiences came from. Still, they should be intelligent enough to make that distinction and I cannot respect them for making such a general statement about BW.

    I have an ex-wife, long story there, but in summary she lied to me about loving me, crashed my credit through the basement, and refused to see that she did anything wrong. We were a WM/BW marriage. I mention this (the story I mean) only because it is a personal example of how a past experience can affect how you see someone or some group of people. It took me some time to get past that, but I have done it. That is why I have no respect for the anti-BW statements these BM/WW couples make, or the individuals themselves for that matter.

    Peanut is the one poster that sticks out in memory the most for the sense the posts made to me, not to say there was nobody else that had valid points. I saw some anger there and some resentment, but considering the topic it wasn’t entirely unexpected. The fact that not many do it is a valid point, but I have to agree with her that, since not very many that are not BW do not stand up for them, it is damaging to hear (or read) and can easily cause emotional trauma. It also isn’t too much to ask to be respected for the good that you have done, I know I want to be, so why would I try to take that away from anyone else?

    The other view is that, with the small numbers of BM that actually do date WW exclusively and the larger percentage that does not, why is this an issue? I can kind of understand this as well. Some parents do a bad job raising their kids, and not always because they want to be a bad parent. Some people have had so many bad experiences it has pushed them to where they are now. And there are some who are just happy looking for attention and saying or doing things that they know will cause trouble. I tend to see people as individuals and treat them as such. I also have a really hard time taking to heart an opinion that comes from someone I do not respect, and lets face it, not everyone deserves to be respected and/ or admired. Hell, I have a biological uncle that I do not even claim a relationship to because of the type of man, immature-childish-fool actually, he is. So, I can agree that BW should not even let these fools have any affect on them whatsoever.

    I wish I could remember who posted the “chip away at the System” and I wish I had a better PC so I could scroll back and look without it taking another hour but, I totally agreed with that. It does take time to get ‘The System’ to change but it can and does happen with enough effort. That being said, I am more than willing to acknowledge the BW for what she deals with on this topic and hopefully more will join me in this when they have had a chance to reflect on this thread and consider everything.

    When all things are considered, I sympathize and wish you well and will support you as best I can. I also strongly believe you should consider whether or not the source of these comments is actually worthy of your attention, most of those sources seem to be inane fools to me.


  626. and i might add that it would be NICE if more Black men would support Black women as well and stand up for us…but even if Black men don’t, I’m still going to support Black men and if that makes me a chump oh well…


  627. In response to interracial couples being seen as more loving, while blacks seen as more dysfunctional…I agree with that…I also find it interesting all the hype about interracial relationships (black/non-black) being superior to black-black relationships…

    I find it interesting that one of the Jim Crow Codes banned Blacks from showing affection/kissing in public because it offended whites…

    “Blacks were not allowed to show public affection toward one another in public, especially kissing, because it offended Whites.”

    http://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/what.htm

    when you look at things from the context of history, it’s not that unbelievable then that SOME white people would be offended by a loving Black couple being represented more often in the media just as it is with white couples

    it also would explain the inability to show erotic/love making scene between black men and black women and I’m not talking about angry, vulgar sex acts between bm/bw…but true love-making, intimacy…I can’t even remember the last time I saw that in a movie or really on TV either…

    I see crazy/degrading sex acts between black women/white men sometimes and YOU KNOW that people love to make Black men seem like mandingos when it comes to white women…and degrade them to being nothing more than you know “some BBC”

    Black people’ sexuality is portrayed in very degrading manner the more I think about it. for centuries whites have controlled our sexuality. In one of my slave narratives, I read about how some overseers or slave masters would sometimes force Black men and Black women to have sex in front of them (while they watched like a peep show) if they felt they weren’t having children fast enough and the person who was speaking about this in the slave narrative noted that the overseers/masters enjoyed this degradation…so I think it’s unfathomable for some people to show blacks being sexual in a non-degrading way, unless it’s whites controlling that image

    I will try and find that passage from the slave narrative, but it just goes to show you…to some people they still see blacks as being inferior and slave-like, our sexuality is still not respected as it is with other people

    it’s like we’re either asexual or we’re portrayed as just being beast-like in our sexuality


  628. @demerara

    I meant on the blog in general, not this particular post.

    @vindicator

    Yeah ! Laromana’s right!! Black women can do no wrong!!! Its these damnblack men breeding these women and abandoning these babies!!!

    [youtube-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liXtp6lcpBg]

    er, King’s misgivings have been realized more than his hopes. Stereotypes about negligent black fathers persist, promoted most vehemently by Bill Cosby, who has embarked on a national crusade against the alleged misbehavior of poor black families. And yet such stereotypes may have little basis in reality. Research by Boston College social psychologist Rebekah Levine Coley found that black fathers not living at home are more likely to keep in contact with their children than fathers of any other ethnic or racial group. Coley offers a more complex view of the causes of absenteeism among black fathers: the failure to live up to expectations to provide for their families–owing to stunted economic and educational opportunities–drives poor black men into despair and away from their families. Such findings undermine the arguments about black fathers’ inherent pathology or moral lassitude. These men need jobs, not jabs.


  629. @Peanut

    I can’t tell who you’re patronizing at this point, me or the black men you know will be reading our exchange but either way its inconsistent. You’re taking a cold-dead-hand approach to a very vague and inaccurate idea of support as if someone is trying to pry you away from black men as a whole and that isn’t what’s happening here. All black men are not your concern, they have women in their own lives so again you’re bring intrusive in more ways than one. Other groups of women don’t support the collective of men in that group, just the men in their families and that kind of support is intimate and personal (familial and/or romantic). That is actual support based on the definition of masculinity their culture has shaped for them. Now if only black women could just back off and let black men do the same. They know the kind of society they live in and what their issues are so let them figure out the best course of action. Either you don’t think their capable or you need the distraction from the issues black women have.


  630. WarrenAZ,

    I said what I said. I gave my opinion, you gave yours…and it’s not going to change.


  631. @ satanforce

    playing the blame game for single mothers/ absent fathers is ridiculous. In my opinion, there is no excuse not to care for your child. Fatherhood is not valued in the way it should be in the Black community and the person who suffers the most is the child…do not put the blame solely on Black women for not “raising children right,” and do not put the blame solely on Black men, it’s both…but mothers are bearing the burden right now and the children are suffering…in this economy it’s extremely difficult to be a single mother and we all know that there are Black mothers who work their azz off to raise their children (alone) and the father’s are just not doing their part…

    but also know there are SOME Black fathers who want to be in their children’s lives and SOME Black mothers keep the children away from them…it goes both ways, but the real victims are the children…and that is what SHOULD be the focus NOT the blame game


  632. Black children ( i think) are rarely brought up in the Black community other than in the context of not having their father’s in their lives…but there are Black fathers who are VERY diligent towards their children and who love and care for them and put them first. My Black father is one of them. We should focus and uplift THOSE Black father MORE because we need people to see that side and understand that father’s ARE IMPORTANT.

    But i do not think children are celebrated enough in the Black American community, they’re just seen as a problem and a drain on society…out of wedlock, teen pregnancy, baby daddies…baby mamas it’s always negative what does that say about Black children and what does that say TO them?

    If they’re seen as a problem constantly…?


  633. but sorry this is about interracial relationships not Black father’s…so any way back on topic..

    Interracial relationships (in this age) the ones between black men & non-black women i believe are less threatening to people than a strong, unified Black couple. People are becoming more comfortable with the bm/ww pairing as long as it within certain contexts…and the Black man has to be portrayed as superior and “safe” to be accepted by the white audience. Like in that movie “Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner,” the doctor had to be this extreme over-achiever, with an impeccable record and who was asexual towards the white woman (except he kissed her once)…while all the white woman had to be was attractive, young and sweet.

    Then all that mattered was appeasing the white parents, the concerns of the black parents were secondary and i think that sends a strong message of who people are trying to appease…and who they’re catering to with these images of hyping up bm/non-bw relationship and then making black relationships look dysfunctional. it’s like either the black woman is dead (she was dead in Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner) or she’s an emasculating sapphire who drives the black man away…but the white/non-black woman she ‘tames’ the Black man and makes him reach his potential according to the media…but Black women don’t do that…that’s the message I get.


  634. @Peanut

    Change nothing and nothing will change.


  635. “Research by Boston College social psychologist Rebekah Levine Coley found that

    – black fathers not living at home are more likely to keep in contact with their children than fathers of any other ethnic or racial group.

    Coley offers a more complex view of the causes of absenteeism among black fathers: the failure to live up to expectations to provide for their families–owing to stunted economic and educational opportunities–drives poor black men into despair and away from their families. Such findings undermine the arguments about black fathers’ inherent pathology or moral lassitude.

    These men need jobs, not jabs.”

    ********************************

    Thank you S-Force!

    This is (or will be) a classic example of: NOT SEEING something that’s clearly shown.

    Some folks, undoubtedly, will read the above quote, but it won’t register, won’t leave an imprint and won’t change their erroneous point of view. Instead they’ll see (or make up/believe) something that wasn’t said…

    {{ Note to self: Never underestimate the power of stupid people – in large groups, with an agenda! smh}}


  636. this isn’t about black fathers, but i agree absent father’s is more complicated than it looks, in belle hooks “we real cool,” she talks about Black father’s. I’ve always had my father in my life so I don’t know what it feels like for others, even though my dad worked a lot, he was still there. honestly i think a child really needs more than just “keeping in contact,” with the father they need a solid relationship in addition to financial and emotional support, but i agree that we do live in a system where something is affecting the ability of SOME Black fathers to be able to step up to the role and I think its more complicated than laziness…although for some that’s definitely part of it, but I believe most black fathers (even the absent ones) love their children, but something else is going on


  637. @Tyrone

    “Blackmen think they’re doing it big so to speak, Wrong! The joke is on us as blackmen. As far as whitewomen supposedly being the most attractive, that’s bulls**t too. How many real whitewomen do we see in white media? Blonde, blue-eyed, pale skin, thin. I’ve seen my fair share of real whitewomen, and they’re not as fine as they think they are, Real Talk! Again, white folks are very clever. They’ve replaced whitewomen in media with a bunch of mixed whitewomen who owe their beauty to blackwomen. So, how can they say that they’re superior to blackwomen, when blackwomen made them what they are? I stress this point a lot because a lot of us don’t pay attention to what we see in white media. ”

    I have to agree with Tyrone on this one to some extent. The idea that blonde, blue-eyed white women are the pinnacle of beauty was much much more prevalent in the ’50s and ’60s (e.g. Marilyn Monroe) than it is today. Tastes in beauty have since trended to the more exotic look (i.e. tan skin, dark hair).

    And “mixed whitewomen” may be a fairly accurate description of these ladies. It seems that the likes of Mariah Carey and Jennifer Beals have been perceived as “white” in some sense for a long time. The younger commenters may not be aware of this, but in the 1990s long after Mariah’s mixed ancestry became publicy known she was still paired with very white love interests in her music videos. That’s a strong indication that she’s not regarded as a member of any black endogamous caste.


  638. I remember Mariah being criticized by a few whites in the media when she started collaborating a lot more with black male artists. Sandra Berhard was one of her main critics, stating once that Mariah lowered herself by hanging out with black men. I remember thinking that Bernhard was in essence saying Mariah had been tainted. I think Mariah’s multi-ethnic appearance paired with the cross-over appeal of her music back in the 90s, caused many to think of her as not being black. Her appearances in films such as “Precious” and her marriage to Nick Cannon have caused more people to think of her as black, IMO.


  639. i didn’t want to get off topic so i responded more to black father topic in open thread: http://abagond.wordpress.com/open-thread-2/#comment-110996

    I re-read Belle Hooks piece.

    anyway about black men/white women…


  640. this is the type of black man I am talking about who would fit the description of someone with a magical preference, and who is brainwashed: http://iswirl.info/2008/09/why-white-women-2/

    some who EXCLUSIVELY dates non-black women


  641. Peanut

    I went to that link.

    This person doesn’t have any issues with black-women, and HAS even dated some … he just relates to, finds he has more in common with and prefers white-women.

    Nor is he bashing BW. (Maybe I missed something?)

    I’m not seeing that he’s brainwashed. He’s simply exercising his freedom to choose What I do see is because we live in a RACIST society, why/how some folks on both sides of the fence would take offense/exception regarding his preference.

    Would you call a WM who prefers dating/marrying BW, brainwashed?


  642. no i wouldn’t because black women aren’t uplifted as the standard of beauty in this society.

    I think he’s brainwashed because the ONLY reason he dated a black woman was because no white women were around, I found that troublesome and felt like he was just using black women for sex in that sense, but he only SERIOUSLY dates/marries white women that is why i think he’s brainwashed.


  643. i really don’t know too many white men (in reality) who prefer bw anyway though to be honest, most of the ones i know who date black women do so as an exception, can’t say the same for some of the black men i know who date white women.

    There’s a reason for everything…


  644. i’d say if the white guy came from an environment where black women were the beauty standard and white women were pissed on constantly, then i would say he was brainwashed…


  645. on Sun 5 Feb 2012 at 20:25:38 Jack in the Box

    @ Peanut

    Don’t all men use women for sex?


  646. maybe i read too much into it, but the vibe i got was that he didn’t date black women (unless he was forced to) and even then he OBVIOUSLY wouldn’t ever consider seriously dating a black woman…to me that was problematic that’s just my opinion. i think he has a magical preference.


  647. if the wm almost exclusively dated black women and only used ww for sex i would think he had some mommy issues…he certainly wouldn’t have a developed a preference for black women from THIS CULTURE that’s for sure, maybe from somewhere else or maybe he had personal issues with white women, so in that sense I guess he brainwashed himself…but it surely wouldn’t be from this culture, but in essence, he would brainwashed too i guess (sorta)


  648. jack in the box,

    but the difference is when you use women for sex JUST BECAUSE of their race…it’s racist…and black women are disproportionately used for sex by men of all races and always have been…maybe i’m wrong about that article, maybe I’m not, but for some reason it just seemed like he had a “magical preference,” to me…i could be wrong.


  649. i mean i can be bias myself, so maybe i’m over-thinking things, but i just seemed to get a bad vibe from it for one thing he said ‘he was the most uncomfortable around black people,” and he’s black himself…to me that’s a red flag that media and culture has gotten to him to the point he can’t even be around his own race…

    ….I mean that’s a big red flag to me, but i could be wrong.


  650. and i’m not saying he’s evil, but i’m just saying his “preference,” came from somewhere…it did not just magically evolve and I just want Black women to understand when you see men who reject u cuz you’re not their “preference,” just because you’re black…it’s not YOU that’s the problem …a lot of the times the men are just brainwashed and or white-washed and there’s nothing really you can do about it.

    sometimes when you see so many men with a magical preference again and again and again…you might think there’s something wrong WITH YOU, but I just want some Black women who feel that way to know…a lot of the times they’re just brainwashed to prefer certain types of beauty.

    if it weren’t brainwashing…there would be more “non-black men” with a “preference” for black women…but they’re aren’t so to me the “magical preference,” is nothing more than white-washing….that’s just my opinion

    but they can keep doing what they do and having “their preference,” but I’m going to call it for what it is to me…and I might be wrong or I might not be…

    magical preference: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=A%20Magical%20Preference


  651. and when you’re inundated with the message (both directly and indirectly) that something is “wrong” with black women on a daily basis…of course I’m going to wonder how that affects people’s choices…when you’re told from day one that white is beautiful, good and pure…and Black is just the opposite, that’s going to affect your every day choices in how you relate and treat people.

    Now, if things were balanced and the media wasn’t so racist and history was completely different…if beauty standards were more individualized as opposed to racialized…I would say every man could have his preference and it would be just that a preference…and not a product of racist mindset, but i imagine if things were more balanced…then Black women wouldn’t be on the bottom constantly…it would be more equal across women of different races because we know there are beautiful women in all races…right?…

    but because of white supremacy, I believe most black people, white people and other POC are brainwashed and that affects our daily choices and interactions…

    I was very brainwashed/white-washed growing up…that didn’t really play out in my dating preferences (although i found some white men attractive physically) I also found black men attractive physically and the cultural bond, even if they weren’t portrayed as the “ideal man,” i was not attracted to white men culturally so i guess being around positive black people helps with that white washing…to an extent, but you gotta be immersed in that daily to match the negative messages about blacks you get especially in mostly white environment

    but I was very white washed, so i know then i’m not the only one, i even chose the white doll over the black one and i see a lot of similarities in his views and how mine used to be and i’m sure i’m still very white-washed to be honest…i’m working on overcoming it: http://blacknotwhitedippedinchocolate.wordpress.com/2011/06/26/white-doll-black-doll-test-i-failed/


  652. and when i was younger, i didn’t know i was brainwashed, i assumed there was something wrong with me and my hair and my looks, it wasn’t until i got to college and was exposed to alternate views and i learned about beauty standards and how historically people like cesare lomborso, thomas jefferson and richard lignon, (the english explorer who visited the cape verde islands during the slave trade) were all racist white men who used beauty as a political tool to uplift the white race and demean black race that I learned the lack of interest that many people have for black women (we call it a preference) is taught and reinforced.

    cesare lombroso was one of the first to point out that black women were more masculine and thus less attractive and appealing as women and therefore more prone to criminality. So a Black woman’s inability to meet society’s beauty standards because she has dark skin, kinky hair and fuller features make her more prone to criminality, which was seen as a masculine trait.

    Richard lignon compared black women to beastly animals whose breast hung down so low they could feed their children over their backs with them…and the deformed and massive figure of the black beast woman was used to demonstrate the overall inferiority of the black race…the white woman’s body, her type of beauty represented virtue and all things good, the black woman’s body represented all things bad and that was part of what made it easier psychologically for whites to enslave blacks

    then thomas jefferson and his views on Black women being appealing to apes and black men preferring white women were used to reinforce white supremacy

    and of course sara baartman and her beauty were used to degrade black people, especially black women, her buttocks, her hair, her skin they were different from white women and that meant that she must have been inferior and ugly

    all these things happened…and society has been sending the same message of inferiority to the masses ever since…and every one who grows up in this culture or is exposed to it, sees it, absorbs it and lives it, myself included

    in that sense beauty standards are political because in reality (beauty is too diverse to have any set definition). beauty standards become political and this is evident in the black power movement when they tried to reverse the politics of racial beauty with the “black is beautiful,” and “miss black Americas.”

    so, from what I’ve learned and experienced i would be hard pressed not to wonder or question just why some people have “certain preferences,” and where those preferences come from…

    they can do what they want to do at the end of the day, but i can also question why things are the way they are…and I try my best to understand the historical makings of the black women’s position in society and the role that racialized beauty standards play in the demoralization of Black women.


  653. and i’m sorry for my poor grammar/spelling and every thing i hope you got my message though and my feelings from the post


  654. I personally think the preference comes from brainwashing. I don’t have a problem with black men dating white women because I’m a black woman who also dates non-black men.

    When I was a little girl, I lived in an area where there were lots of people of different ethnic backgrounds. ALL of my little elementary “boyfriends” were black, and I don’t even remember considering ANY white ones. I liked black boys I saw on TV, and occasionally liked some of the white ones.

    Eventually moved to an almost all white area, literally about 1 % black. It’s true that people become more appealing when you’re around them. At the same time, you are fully aware that many of them (in rural Texas at least) have been told not to even bring you home as even a friend. I have 2 brothers and a sister, and when we were kids we were talking about our future kids, and one of my brothers said that he was afraid if he married a white person that the kids wouldn’t come out black looking. We’re already pretty mixed, and our biracial cousins don’t look like black people even to us, and our definition of black includes Mariah Carey.

    I think nowadays (I’m 28), I don’t really care who I marry race-wise, and my siblings are the same. When I saw that Kola Boof video where she was talking about making the children who look like slave masters it reminded me of that conversation we had as little kids lol!

    I can’t be THAT militant anyway because I myself and 90% of my family don’t fit that PURE definition of black, but it doesn’t mean we don’t get that concept that it would probably make racist white people happy if black people bred their own black out.

    I never even considered marriage to a white person in a realistic way until I got older and saw that the black men from my background had a definite white preference. I get that there are MORE white women, and it doesn’t make me mad, and I understand how you stop caring when you are around them so much.

    I think it’s also a trophy sort of thing a lot of times, quality. You can even see it in how most black men who DO like black women want a LIGHT black woman. There are plenty of Gabrielle Union/Nia Long pretty dark skinned black women, but they are not viewed as being of as high of quality as Halle Berry/Paula Patton types. In my experience, black men are nicer to lighter women, in a VERY obvious way. MOST OF THEM. Men who are light-skinned themselves are usually an exception unless they’re color struck, and most of the black guys with a preference for dark women were light or non-american.

    Agabond, I never liked the way you presented the black women/ white men thing. In my experience, black men have an almost 99% loyalty of black women attraction-wise, but your articles are always about how white men don’t find black women attractive. The angle of your article didn’t surprise me because I think most black men are aware of the fact that black women aren’t considered high quality in the way that white women are, even if they themselves prefer black women. I can’t think of ANY black women I know who are my mom’s age that date white men. I don’t know any who haven’t been approached by white men at some point. THEY ARE NOT INTERESTED. Younger black women are different, but even I feel strange as someone who does, but it is becoming more common.


  655. @Peanut

    You asked a question in this thread, paraphrased-“Why do black.men turn their backs on the black women who birthed them, raised them and love them?”
    Not all black women (even among the mothers) love black men. If a black boy.is raised by a.mother who tells him that he’s worthless, if he spends his time around women who don’t think that hes good enough to date (as in saying that he’s corny or nerdy or whatever), then he has a bad experience or two with black women who *are* willing to date him, its easy for him to rationalise dating out. Did you think that it was only “Precious”-type abuse that occurs in the black community, but no potential “Prince”s or “Tyler”s?

    I met and administered medical care to a black man who had a massive triangle-shaped scar on.his back. As he was a member of the bomb defusing squad at our base, I floated a joke about.him not being able to outrun a badly defused bomb (these guys had/have warped senses of humour, so I knew that he wouldn’t be insulted.) He told me that his mother pressed an electric iron to his back when he was eight years old. Not an abusive daddy who “mommy” was sensible in leaving, not a foster parent, not a jackass friend, his bloody “mother“!!! It wasn’t a fraternity stunt or an accident, his already abusive and violent (as in, she had a reputation for doing evil things before she came up with the idea of the iron) mother did it. Now, do you think that a person who was willing to press a steam iron onto the body of a child until the room began to smell like pork was just naturally “loving and caring” until that moment? Do you think that a child who endured that type of abuse (and subsequent cover up) at the hands of people (in this case, black women), should hold no anger towards his tormentors? Hell, they would have gotten away with it if he hadn’t bled through his shirt within a minute of getting to school (no, his mother didn’t even think to take him to the hospital.) And no, he couldn’t even bring himself to get naked around black women (I had to be dragged out of my section of the hospital because the residing doctor and on-call personnel at that time were all black women, a rarity for Afghanistan at that time.) For emphasis: I had to be told instructions on how to minister to a patient through a closed door (despite the fact that I was and still am not trained in nursing) because a 190 cm (6’2″), 95kg (over 200 lb of solid muscle) black man started crying because a black women “forced” him to take off his shirt (and by forced, I mean that she politely asked him to remove his shirt so that she could see his fresher wounds.)

    This, obviously, was an extreme case. However, there are plenty of black men who have received abuse at the ha.de of their female relatives and/or peers. Like I said in my.missing post, my mother tried to prostitute me for crack. I know plenty of black men who grew up like Antoine Fisher. I know dozens of black men who spent their teens and older being told that they weren’t “good enough” to date (how many times should a man be turned down before being “allowed” to be bitter? For a sense of scale, a black boy who asks out and gets turned down by a different girl once a week will endure over 50 rejections in a year. If he stats asking girls out at the age of 13 and doesn’t get more than a “No” from black women until he graduates from college, that’s close to or over 500 rejections.)

    Am I saying that BW have to start saying “Yes” to any herb or chump or corny dude who hits on them? Hell no! Would I *like* it if some of you would start looking at things from the shoes of the less-than? Yes.


  656. @Peanut

    “no i wouldn’t because black women aren’t uplifted as the standard of beauty in this society.

    I think he’s brainwashed because the ONLY reason he dated a black woman was because no white women were around, I found that troublesome and felt like he was just using black women for sex in that sense, but he only SERIOUSLY dates/marries white women that is why i think he’s brainwashed”

    The fact that he is stereotyping women is even more telling. When he tries to justify his (magical) preference he isn’t talking about the different qualities of the individual women he’s been with. He is describing how he sees the whole group. In his mind white women don’t just look similar, they also have similar personalities and behave in similar ways. This quote:
    “The next few years it became apparent that I was attracted to white women more than black women. The more I woke up next to a white woman, I found my self attracted to the smell of their hair, their smoothly shaved legs, their french manicured toes, their porcelain like skin and their free spirit”
    clearly shows his perception of women is racialized He is not dating individuals, he is dating their race.

    If a white man said he prefers to date black women because they have big butts, beautiful lips and have strong, dominating personalities that would be messed up too – it doesn’t really matter who is the current standard of beauty. Seeing people as their race first and then as an individual is always wrong.


  657. Mamu1977,

    that’s true there are dysfunctional black mothers i never said there weren’t, but there are also dysfunctional white mothers who abuse their sons and that doesn’t mean the son turns on all white women. sure there are some black women who turn down black men, and the black man feels like he needs to shut all black women out and if that’s the case that he’s had a traumatic experience, i would suggest he get counseling. but that’s the same thing that the something new crew Black women do with black men, they have a few bad experiences or get abused by a black man (in some way) and then generalize all black men and i don’t think that’s right either.

    emotionally, i can understand his situation, but the reality is MOST of the men who I SEE bashing Black women have stated themselves that they love their mother, were cared for BY THEIR MOTHERS…they didn’t get abused…even srgtwilliepete said this and they’re still bashing Black women. Most of the professional athletes were raised and cared for by Black mothers. It’s not just about having bad experiences, because i know many of them had great mothers, grandmothers and black women who supported them.

    I never said ALL Black women were good mothers, just as I wouldn’t say ALL white women are good mothers because there’s dysfunctional mothers in every race, but again it’s only Black women who seem to be lumped into the “immoral mother stereotype,” and all black women made to pay for it.

    when you have a traumatic experience, you’re going to feel the way you feel and I can’t change that, but if that hasn’t been my experience and I know differently, I’m not going to be able to stand by and not say anything when I know it’s not true…why lump in all the positive Black women with the negative ones…? I don’t do that to Black men…


  658. …but there are also dysfunctional white mothers who abuse their sons and that doesn’t mean the son turns on all white women…

    And yet it’s surprisingly common for their sons to turn to raping, beating and killing women who look just like their mother.
    I always thought it was interesting how the majority of serial murderers and rapists were white men.


  659. and also…mamu…

    if a black boy/man is verbally abused by his mother and later in life doesn’t like Black women because of that, then his dislike of Black women isn’t even really the main issue, it’s his PTSD and he’s lashing out at all Black women because of that and emotionally, that’s understandable…

    so I guess I take your point in the sense that you are right for some Black men they really may just not feel obligated to stand up or defend Black women because of their bad experiences. I guess I can see your point. I mean it is hard to overcome a traumatic experience and for some people to see the positive side of Black women when your own mother abuses you is probably difficult and that’s understandable. I would say that’s a special case and the guy would be best served to get some counseling.

    It is sad though that for some people, all the positive contributions of Black women are overshadowed by a few negative experiences, but emotions are a b*tch they can obscure reality (i know that). So, in that sense, I guess I can see your point that a Black man might resent all Black women because he’s traumatized…so it might be harder for him to trust or see the positive things that Black women do.

    if that was the case, I would be more sensitive to a Black man who came from that type of background and I would suggest he got some counseling. But I know that’s not true in many of the cases, there are plenty of Black men who came from loving home and still dislike Black women and those men I cannot excuse their behavior…


  660. wanpimao,

    i thought about that, but you know what the go for women who look like their mothers…not all women who are white…so why would you go for all black women…because if all white women don’t look the same, then all black women don’t look the same.

    I made another comment that got thrown into moderation, basically saying psychologically I could see how some Black men who went through that ordeal might resent Black women and if that were a special case, I would try to be sensitive to him, but for the other black men who don’t have a special case like that I really can’t excuse bashing or disrespecting Black women.


  661. and even if you want to take my mother’s comment about rejecting the women who overwhelming care and nurture Black men out (and it’s true most black men are cared for by Black women) you still shouldn’t blame all Black women (especially considering the overwhelming majority of Black women do support Black men, including fostering and taking care of children who are abused/neglected by other parents, why should all the positive get cancelled out by some bad experiences when that’s not the case with white or other races of women?) either way you look at it, it’s wrong…but i understand in special cases like abuse u may require counseling to get over doing that.


  662. but at the end of the day,

    I still do believe that Black men and Black women have to be each other’s allies. I still believe as long as we live in a racist world we need to uplift and support each other because (for the most part) no one else is going to do it. From what I CAN SEE Black women overwhelming care for and support Black men in a multitude of ways, which I’ve already stated in my previous posts. I know this isn’t true FOR EVERYBODY, and if people’s experiences are different, that’s fine. But from what I have seen and what I have read and studied, Black women are supporting Black men and i believe we need to look out for each other as long as we live in a racist society.

    but it seems like this support is very lopsided because even the Black men who are not bashing Black women are not speaking up for Black women enough.

    and even if you don’t agree with me that Black people should support each other as a cultural group for what ever reason (especially considering were in a racist/white supremacist society) can we at least agree that AS PEOPLE Black women should not be mistreated and bashed or discriminated against by SOME Black men the way they are regardless…can we agree to that?


  663. and that is why i’ll continue to support black men. That is why I will continue to donate money to Black organizations and Black fraternities, that is why I will continue to speak up for Black men when people stereotype them or degrade them and that is why I will continue to volunteer my time help the black community because it matters to me. Some people may not see the value or may think I’m a chump to do that, but I feel like it would be a disservice not to support Black men because as long as we live in a racist world, my future black sons (if i have any), black husband, black brothers, black fathers, black men cousins will have to face the inequalities of the society and I will be there to support them because it’s right thing to do period.

    Even if you took the “racial loyalty,” aspect out of it, it’s still the right thing to do because Black men are not treated fairly compared to other races of men and that’s fact, the same goes for Black women. Would it be nice if more people would care about the plight of Black women simply because it’s wrong to mistreat people…yes it would and I care about it, but I also care about Black men and i can’t change that.

    I care about both black women and black men because they’re the people i can depend on more than any one else and take that aspect out of it, it’s just the right thing to do to advocate for equality anyway.


  664. @Peanut

    i thought about that, but you know what the go for women who look like their mothers…not all women who are white…so why would you go for all black women…because if all white women don’t look the same, then all black women don’t look the same.

    I apologize, but I really do not understand what you’re trying to say here. Rephrase it for me, please? Thank you.


  665. If the Black Man embraces colorism, then you might as well throw in the towel in the fight against White Supremacy. Either that, or Black Women must take the helm of the fight, which is basically what’s happened already.


  666. @ wanpimao

    I was trying to make the point that the minority of white men who become serial killers because they were abused or mistreated by their mothers may target women who LOOK like their mothers…but not all white women look like their mothers to them. So the focus is more on the features of the women within their race not the race itself.

    So my point was if that was the case with Black men, why would all Black women look like their mothers, unless all Black women looked the same? Why not go after the ones who resemble the mother within the race…why would the whole race get branded…unless all Black women look the same?

    That was what I was trying to get across, but it probably came out weirdly. But I said a bunch of stuff after that any way.


  667. and no need to apologize wanpimao, I apologize for not making sense.


  668. eoc,

    “If a white man said he prefers to date black women because they have big butts, beautiful lips and have strong, dominating personalities that would be messed up too – it doesn’t really matter who is the current standard of beauty. Seeing people as their race first and then as an individual is always wrong.”

    that’s true…he was generalizing and if a white man said all that stuff about Black women, I would probably think he had a fetish or something to be honest.

    I just think there’s more than just a simple “preference” going on in that article…


  669. Eriq LaSalle says,
    “The issue I had was that the show has, in my opinion, not shown a three-dimensional, balanced, black-on-black relationship. As a matter of fact, I just felt that the two relationships that I had with Black women were very dysfunctional, and not explored. And when I got into interracial relationship, I thought it was a much better written story line. I think Black women are so sensitive to seeing interracial relationships because they feel they’re getting the short end of the stick.”

    “I hated ending something that was working, but I felt there was a greater issue. I felt we were inadvertently sending a very strange message that I wasn’t comfortable with, which is: Here’s a successful Black man who can only have dysfunctional relationships with Black women. But, when he dates outside his race, he is more vulnerable, more open, sweeter, more romantic, sensual. All the things I think are false. I feel it’s a shame we can’t point to a positive, three-dimensional, fully developed Black-on-Black relationship in recent memory. As a Black artist and as a Black man, I do have a responsibility to my community not to perpetuate things that are detrimental to my community and myself.”

    laromana says,
    I greatly appreciate Eriq LaSalle’s supportive/concerned comments regarding his desire to see BW/BM relationships presented in an accurate/positive manner. I also respect Eriq’s PRO-BW attitude in acknowledging how BW feel when they see themselves CONSTANTLY portrayed in a negative manner in American media.

    Since I believe in RECIPROCITY, PRO-BW BM, like Eriq LaSalle are the type of BM who I can RESPECT/SUPPORT because he’s choosing to show love/respect towards BW and concern about the negative way they are viewed/treated in American culture/media.

    ———————————————-

    robwarner3 says,
    One view is that some BM/WW couples actively direct hateful remarks and stereotypes on BW, and mostly for reasons that are not very well thought out. There has to be a slight few who have had horrible experiences covering all their past(s) and it is very hard to get over that and see that not all BW are like the ones those experiences came from. Still, they should be intelligent enough to make that distinction and I cannot respect them for making such a general statement about BW.

    I have an ex-wife, long story there, but in summary she lied to me about loving me, crashed my credit through the basement, and refused to see that she did anything wrong. We were a WM/BW marriage. I mention this (the story I mean) only because it is a personal example of how a past experience can affect how you see someone or some group of people. It took me some time to get past that, but I have done it. That is why I have no respect for the anti-BW statements these BM/WW couples make, or the individuals themselves for that matter.

    laromana says,
    robwarner3,
    I really appreciate your PRO-BW spirit. Many would believe that, on the basis of your negative experience with your ex-wife, you’d be justified in adopting ANTI-BW HATE as a response but, instead, you’ve CHOSEN to continue showing respect towards BW.
    Your attitude also demonstrates why ANTI-BW BM who have had negative experiences with SOME BW, are NOT justified in CHOOSING to resort to ANTI-BW HATE.
    ——————————
    Suzy says,
    @ ShadyGrady from 21:52:07 (had typed this before work) – I think you are overlooking/ignoring a major fundamental point of why the issue of BM/WW relationships are a sore spot for many black women. Even if the majority of black men marry black women, the ones who don’t are very disproportional to the percent of black women who marry interracially. Additionally, far too many of the black men who marry interracially justify their “preference” by bashing black women. I know you think we should just let it roll off our shoulders – because why would we want them anyway – but I think you fail to realize that there seems to be a “silent majority” of black men who do not DEFEND us from these attacks. While there is a MINORITY of black men who actually actively and routinely do this, they are in many ways echoing the very hostile, negative anti-black woman rhetoric of society at large – and we are often times the ONLY people speaking out in our defense (and get to be labeled “angry” for being upset, and thus our emotions and reasons thoroughly and immediately invalidated) at something I would think ANYONE would be angry at if such vitriol was directed at them. If such sentiments were directed at white women, there would be no end to the white man’s rage and quest to stop it as I remarked on earlier.

    laromana says,
    Suzy,
    Thanks for your EXCELLENT comments that clearly describe how American BW HATE CULTURE is UNFAIR/WRONG and needs to be challenged/condemned by EVERYONE (especially BM)

    Your comments also support the FACT that BW have a RIGHT to take OFFENSE/DEFEND ourselves against ANTI-BW HATE/HATERS without being attacked for doing so.


  670. Okay, my thing is it doesn’t matter to me why random, unknown men might not want me — I’m not going to spend one minute trying to convince them otherwise. And for me that statement applies to all men, regardless of race. Why in the world would I want to browbeat or guilt a man into having ANYTHING to do with me if he has expressed an intense hatred (whether rational or irrational/deserved or undeserved) or repulsion for me? Or that he’s simply, bottomline, finds me unattractive (and most especially if it’s due to something I can’t change, such as my racial affiliation)?

    I will be much better off without such a man in my personal life. And he, hopefully, will be much happier (or not) with a person he prefers and wants to be around.

    Simply being a man, or more specifically, a Black man certainly doesn’t mean he “owes” me ANYTHING and that includes a chance at having a relationship — regardless if it meant that I had to be single/alone for life . . . .

    Looking after each other when it comes to discrimination and human rights et cetera is the right thing to do. I personally prefer it, however, if no one confuses that with thinking HE’S got dibs on ME just because we’re members of the same race.


  671. “I personally prefer it, however, if no one confuses that with thinking HE’S got dibs on ME just because we’re members of the same race.”

    **********************************
    Thank you!

    ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

    @ Eco & Peanut

    So, if a WM prefers BW with big butts, beautiful lips and strong, dominating personalities, that would be:

    1. messed up

    2. generalizing

    3. a fetish or something

    But it wouldn’t be 1-3 if a BM prefers those same traits in a BW because — they are the same race/color???

    I think you are both forgetting/missing something very important here in your theorizing. Race is a man-made social construct. IT’S NOT REAL, it’s a false abstract that people “subscribe” to as if it was real.

    If any individual is attracted to a particular skin tone/color – it doesn’t necessarily mean they: have a racialized fetish, or that they have underlying/overlying issues regarding race – superiority/inferiority and all the other BS that’s often attached to it.

    With 7 billion souls living on the planet, if I wish to find my preference – an individual female of a certain skin tone – with a big butt, beautiful lips and a dominating personality, as well as other specific qualities/traits… would that be wrong? And who should judge whether it is or isn’t??

    Would it be fetishistic if a short man preferred to marry a tall woman?

    What about short women who prefer tall men? Or tall slender men? Or short men with big bank accounts? Or muscular men with no children?

    You two seem to think it’s against some sort of code/rule/standard/group loyalty to like/prefer something/someone different than what society/culture says/thinks people should like/love. As in 1-3 above.

    This isn’t about some BM bashing BW. This is about confining/appointing people to boxes put together with someones restricting/constricting dimensions.

    Just to be clear, I don’t believe that people should be treated differently based on their skin color. But if someone is attracted to, or looking for a particular mate of a particular hue, tone or color, to love and cherish, or whatever consenting adults wish to do, I have no issues or concerns. It’s their business, and not mine.


  672. inregards to the guy who said that he dated black women because they had big butts, big lips and strong attitudes, since he was being asked why he dated those women as a whole/group, not each women specifically, wouldn’t he have to use generalizations to say he had a certain prefence for them?

    If you are describing a group; you have to generalize because otherwise its impossible to describe them.


  673. on Mon 6 Feb 2012 at 05:35:24 sushiandperogies

    It has really angered and saddened me how so many people I have encountered just seem to accept negative , hurtful stereotypes about BW without even questioning them . I’ve heard people of all racial backgrounds flippantly throw around the “bad attitudes” trope and seem to accept it as if it were absolute fact.It really is very widespread. Most of my dealings with people are with recent immigrants to Canada and I wonder where the heck they’ve picked up this bs from. Whenever I have confronted people about this they either come to see and realize that the media/ racist power systems have influenced them, or they decide to insist that what they say “is true” ….sigh


  674. @ matari,

    earlier in my comments i said if the wm was only using the bw for sex then that would be wrong and most likely he was only using the bw for sex and he liked bw for having big butts etc…then it is a fetish…same things goes for black men who ONLY wanted black women for sex or white women for that matter

    “I think you are both forgetting/missing something very important here in your theorizing. Race is a man-made social construct. IT’S NOT REAL, it’s a false abstract that people “subscribe” to as if it was real.”

    but the problem is race is a social construct, but it exists no matter how people word it…racism is very real and social construct or not racism affects our perception of beauty and beauty is just as much of a construct as race is…so if we can play the race is a construct game, then so is beauty so why can’t a man “prefer” equally a beautiful black woman?

    why is the black woman the one who gets picked last again and again why is the bw the one who has the articles about how objectively ugly she is published?: what’s up with that if race is a construct, then why do people care what “race” of woman they date…obviously its more than a social construct


  675. wow you guys are still talking about this, I say unless you are the actual party partaking you are looking/judging from afar anyway and maybe you should just butt out and find your own man/woman.


  676. no one is butting into any one’s relationship i’ve said multiple times they can do what they want to do, but i gave my opinion on the matter.


  677. and people butt into black women’s personal lives all the time our sex life, even make policies to regulate our sexual choices and our reproductive capacity…so as far as i’m concerned i’m entitled to express my opinion since people love to dissect black women and break us into these stereotypes…i can say and think what i want as long as i’m not hurting any one…


  678. i’m a free black woman, people can’t shut me up any more i’ll say and feel the way I want…it’s great…i’m doing me for once


  679. “racism affects our perception of beauty and beauty is just as much of a construct as race is…so if we can play the race is a construct game, then so is beauty so why can’t a man “prefer” equally a beautiful black woman?”

    ******************************************

    As been already stated, most black men prefer to date and marry BW..

    In a system of racism/white supremacy, imo, it is unrealistic and unreasonable to expect equal numbers/outcomes, equal representation and equal rates of attraction.

    If you wish to discuss what different men find, see, deem and call beautiful – that’s a wide, complex and subjective topic – although there are some group similarities and experiences, it stills remains that no two men on this planet are exactly alike.

    Any smart, wise and discerning man – who’s not hung up on society’s views – isn’t going to ignore or overlook a black woman with certain desirable intrinsic INNER qualities — that appeals to him. Period. If he wants her, he’s going to “step” to her.

    A woman – depending on what’s she’s looking for – whether it’s a date, a booty call, a courtship – should know or learn to find/attract the type of man she seeks.


  680. @Peanut

    “I just think there’s more than just a simple ‘preference’ going on in that article…”

    Yeah! Generally, I agree with 99% of your observations about preference.

    @Matari

    “But it wouldn’t be 1-3 if a BM prefers those same traits in a BW because — they are the same race/color???”

    You changed the situation. In my example a white man likes those things in black women, not in a woman. If a black man said he prefers black women because they have big butts, beautiful lips and strong, dominating personalities that would be stereotyping too. 1-3 would apply to him too.

    “If any individual is attracted to a particular skin tone/color – it doesn’t necessarily mean they: have a racialized fetish, or that they have underlying/overlying issues regarding race – superiority/inferiority and all the other BS that’s often attached to it.”

    Sure, but in the case of the guy from the article ( http://iswirl.info/2008/09/why-white-women-2/ ) he DOES have issues. In his mind race isn’t just about looking similar – white women have similar personalities too. He clearly says he was attracted to: “shaved legs, their french manicured toes, (…) and their free spirit” as if these were things unique to white women. He is stereotyping them.

    “With 7 billion souls living on the planet, if I wish to find my preference – an individual female of a certain skin tone – with a big butt, beautiful lips and a dominating personality, as well as other specific qualities/traits… would that be wrong?”

    Depends. Would you ignore a woman who has every trait you like except for the right skin tone?

    “Would it be fetishistic if a short man preferred to marry a tall woman?”

    If height is the thing he likes most about her, then he is a fetishist. Fetish means: “an object of unreasonably excessive attention or reverence”. Being tall shouldn’t be the most important quality of a person.

    @V-4

    “inregards to the guy who said that he dated black women because they had big butts, big lips and strong attitudes, since he was being asked why he dated those women as a whole/group, not each women specifically, wouldn’t he have to use generalizations to say he had a certain prefence for them?
    If you are describing a group; you have to generalize because otherwise its impossible to describe them.”

    The attitude thing makes the difference. Race is about looking similar. Saying black women generally have bigger butts and big lips is OK – you are mentioning features that are more common for black women. Saying they have strong attitudes too is wrong, because that is not related to their race (to the way they look). It shows you believe in racial stereotypes, that people who look similar behave similar too. Having an attitude is not a “black thing”.


  681. “why is the black woman the one who gets picked last again and again why is the bw the one who has the articles about how objectively ugly she is published?: what’s up with that if race is a construct, then why do people care what “race” of woman they date…obviously its more than a social construct”

    Picked last by whom? The black woman is picked first by black men. Most black men (ugly/handsome, rich/poor, positive/negative, classy/trashy) pick black women to date, marry and have children with. Black women are who they generally find most attractive.

    The black woman is picked last by white men. While I can see how this might be a problem if you happen to be a black woman who is attracted to white men, there is really not a whole lot that can be done to change it. Notable exceptions aside, most people still wind up marrying within their race.


  682. About Black Men abadoning their families; statistically speaking depending on their education/social class women intiate 7-9 out of 10 divorces.

    Now thats the nation as a whole, versus broken down by races but off-hand I can’t think of any reason black people would be significantly different in that regard than any other group.

    If 70% of black women aren’t married its because 70% of black women don’t want to be.


  683. @Shady_Grady
    @V-4

    Do you believe that the black women who say men (in general) are mistreating them are greatly misrepresenting their situation? Why would they do that?

    I think neither of you is presenting a strong argument. The fact that most people marry within their race doesn’t mean that is what they prefer – it shows who they end up with.
    Divorce statistics cannot be used to explain the amount of people who do not get married at all.


  684. Eco

    “Being tall shouldn’t be the most important quality of a person.”

    Says you..

    You might also say the same about wide hips, but people are often unconsciously/biologically/instinctively drawn/attracted to that which ENHANCES survival AND their ability to produce offspring.


  685. @Eco-given that I don’t believe that either men or women can be totally trusted not to shade evidence, put blinders on, blame shift, use guilt and shame to manipulate the opposite gender, engage in hypocritical self-serving arguments, hide their own preferences behind lofty sounding rhetoric and more in seeking to meet their own socio/biological needs, to be blunt no I don’t believe that women complaining about men or vice versa can be taken at face value.

    And that’s true across racial/ethnic/national lines.

    The very same black women crying the blues about all the black men chasing after white women (in media or supposedly in reality) do not have a mumbling word to say when a black woman dates or marries a white man. This is hypocrisy. They are full of it.

    Some people on this very post don’t want to deal with the fact that most black men seek out black women to be intimate with. If that doesn’t show their preference I don’t know what could. Then it becomes “well she’s too light, or she has this hair color or this hair texture or blah, blah, blah”. It’s really quite revealing of their own insecurities. If a black woman truly believes that the only reason a black man is with her is that he couldn’t get a white woman then that is a personal problem.

    If a short relatively impoverished man sat around complaining incessantly that women in general (and highly attractive women in particular) didn’t give him the time of day, most people would tell him to change the things about himself that he could and find a woman who found him acceptable. They wouldn’t feed his negative feelings by agreeing how horrible it is that women have the audacity to have preferences and that the world needs to change so that billions of women’s ideals put him at the top of their list instead of near the bottom.

    Some black men will like white women. Some white men like Asian woman. Some Hispanic men like black women. Some black women like white men. And so on. Whatever your preference is, act on it and live well. It really is that simple.


  686. And you folks really wonder why the black man/black woman dynamic is so damaged?

    ——————————————————————————————————————–

    @Thordaddy

    The black man and black woman dynamic is not damaged. There are plenty of black couples who are in healthy relationships who love, cherish and care about each other that we see each and everyday. So, don’t go there.

    That’s like saying the Asian woman and Asian man dynamic is damaged just because some people from that Continent or elsewhere marry outside of their race.

    There is someone for everyone, somewhere.

    Some people are attracted to others outside of their race and others are not. So, why generalise.

    Just because the media makes certain thing fashionable, it doesn’t mean that everyone is copying it. Just saying.


  687. @ Shady Grady,

    I’m speaking about picked last in general for every thing…not just dating. Picked last in terms of beauty, picked last in terms in terms of appeal in mass media. Black women do not get picked by other races at the rate of other women, that’s being picked last, black men are picked last too…but Black women date out even less than Black men. the point i was making was within the context of interracial relationships I making the point that IF it was just about “preference” good clean preference…Black women would not get picked LAST all the time…


  688. and about Black men picking Black women first, unfortunately again Black women are THE LEAST married group…so Black men may be sleeping with/ marrying Black women, but we’re still PICKED LAST for marriage even by black men…so yes we’re picked last in every thing.


  689. it’s not difficult to get sex…but getting married is becoming increasingly difficult if you’re a Black woman.


  690. and shady grady,

    you realize there are more than enough Black women for Black men…there’s an over-abundance of us…not the case with Black men yet they date out at twice the rate…

    hmmm….

    If all things were balanced, I have feeling things wouldn’t play out like this.


  691. too many bm just don’t marry black women even if they date, sleep with or have a child with a bw, black women are not being picked for marriage the way they should: http://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/07/31/why-so-few-black-men-marry-black-women/


  692. “it’s not difficult to get sex…but getting married is becoming increasingly difficult if you’re a Black woman.”

    *******************************************

    Here’s a novel (yet nowadays quite unpopular) idea!

    If a significant number of black women would keep their legs closed UNTIL MARRIAGE – I’d be willing to bet that black marriage rates would soar out of sight!

    Why?

    Because BM are going to play by whatever rules BW set – in order to get the poonani!

    Black women, your COLLECTIVE power, particularly where BM are concerned, is between your legs. It should be difficult for BM to get sex, IF marriage is the desired outcome. Sex is too easy to get, which is why men are proposing less and less.

    You, black-women, hold ALL the cards. You have the power/poonani that black men want and will do whatever it takes to GET it.. and if it requires us to marry you to get it, we will marry you. Ya’ll, as a collective, have us in your grip. So it’s up to ya’ll, how you’ll use that grip.

    No farmer invests in a cow that’s giving him free “milk.”
    And why should he?


  693. Peanut says,
    -@ Shady Grady,

    I’m speaking about picked last in general for every thing…not just dating. Picked last in terms of beauty, picked last in terms in terms of appeal in mass media. Black women do not get picked by other races at the rate of other women, that’s being picked last, black men are picked last too…but Black women date out even less than Black men. the point i was making was within the context of interracial relationships I making the point that IF it was just about “preference” good clean preference…Black women would not get picked LAST all the time…

    -and about Black men picking Black women first, unfortunately again Black women are THE LEAST married group…so Black men may be sleeping with/ marrying Black women, but we’re still PICKED LAST for marriage even by black men…so yes we’re picked last in every thing

    -it’s not difficult to get sex…but getting married is becoming increasingly difficult if you’re a Black woman.

    -and shady grady,

    you realize there are more than enough Black women for Black men…there’s an over-abundance of us…not the case with Black men yet they date out at twice the rate…

    hmmm….

    If all things were balanced, I have feeling things wouldn’t play out like this.

    -too many bm just don’t marry black women even if they date, sleep with or have a child with a bw, black women are not being picked for marriage the way they should:

    laromana says,
    EXCELLENT comments, Peanut.
    You’ve concisely/accurately articulated the MAIN ways American BW HATE CULTURE and ANTI-BW BM are negatively affecting BW’s relationship lives.

    I believe that, despite ANTI-BW DENIERS/DISMISSERS, the negative effects of American BW HATE CULTURE are OBVIOUS and can be seen in the MANY ways BW’s humanity/dignity/individuality/femininity are CONSTANTLY being trashed by EVERYONE in American media/society.


  694. @Matari

    “You might also say the same about wide hips, but people are often unconsciously/biologically/instinctively drawn/attracted to that which ENHANCES survival AND their ability to produce offspring.”

    There are so many physical features that send us messages about a person’s health and fertility that paying so much attention to just one or two doesn’t make any sense to me. Besides, aren’t men who focus on physical features simply thinking with their d*cks? Is that really something that makes sense from the perspective of a whole lifetime?

    “If a significant number of black women would keep their legs closed UNTIL MARRIAGE – I’d be willing to bet that black marriage rates would soar out of sight!
    Because BM are going to play by whatever rules BW set – in order to get the poonani!”

    Seriously? Are you saying that black women are too easy and black men are dumb enough to marry for sex? Isn’t love supposed to be the reason why people get married?
    I really hope you were joking and I didn’t get it.

    @Shady_Grady

    I do think that being critical, asking for evidence is important, but generally I cannot agree with you. I think you are wrong when you are implying that BM-WW relationships are comparable with BW-WM. Men pursue women and can ask out whoever they like. Women can only pick a guy out of those who choose them, who ask them out. When they try to pursue men they are seen as desperate or easy.

    Another thing is that for a men becoming more attractive is much easier than for a woman. Women are seen as truly attractive if they are young and beautiful. Men are expected to provide for the family – they are judged based on what they have accomplished. Looks are not that important for a man. A decent looking doctor can easily become more attractive than a good looking gardener.

    I’m not saying women cannot improve their situation, to some extent they can, but the dating game is clearly rigged against them.

    I also can’t agree with your assumption that black women, who say they are mistreated by black men, all think along similar lines. There is the kind you are talking about – hypocrites, women who complain about being abandoned and stereotyped who have abandoned black men. I do think that there are also women who genuinely point out the fact that their situation isn’t fair and that without the support of men they cannot do much about it.


  695. @Eco..

    I don’t think anyone can say that men or women have it easier in the dating market. If women supposedly can’t even find the guts to approach men that they are interested in yet expect men to do it over and over and over again who really has it easier? Men chase women until women catch them. It’s a dance. Evidently there isn’t any place on the planet where men are not more interested in youth and beauty while women are not more interested in resources, power, height and leadership. I don’t think these desires are bad or good. They just are. We all may have complained about them from time to time but it’s really like complaining about the Sun rising in the East. Since you know that’s going to happen, you might as well adapt. Men die earlier and engage in all sorts of objectively ridiculous or dangerous behavior in order to become “more attractive ” to women. That’s what works. Always has been and apparently always will be.

    Now if a particular man doesn’t want to play that game, finds it demeaning or thinks that it’s unfairly rigged against him he is quite free to drop out of the game and do other (presumably less well paid) things. But if he does that he loses the right to complain that he can’t find a quality woman. This works for both genders.

    If women do not make good decisions when their attractiveness is at its peak (say 18-35) , they don’t have any business complaining how unfair things are when they’re in their 40’s or 50’s and might not have the same allure they did as younger women. That’s life.


  696. @peanut
    Not every black woman is marriage material.
    Not every black man is marriage material.
    We can’t assume that all of these black women singing the blues wanted to get married or SHOULD have gotten married. Just because someone says they’re marriage material doesn’t necessarily make it so. No one has any “right” to be married.

    But as mentioned upthread, marriage just offers less to both genders these days. And that’s across racial lines, too.

    Again, it takes two to tango. If women are making dumb decisions as to who to sleep with or date that’s on them ultimately. I do not believe that every woman wanted to get married and naively slept with a man who told her he would marry her. Life doesn’t work that way.

    People need to be able to make a case to their partner why marriage is a good idea. These days, with so many marriages breaking up and women initiating most of the divorces marriage has less appeal than it used to.


  697. @peanut.
    Black men are picked last by other races too. However you almost NEVER hear a black man complaining about this. If he does someone will almost immediately stop by to clown him for complaining and mock him even more for desiring a non-black woman.

    As a rule every group finds its own most attractive and marries within. The fact that marriage is increasingly losing its cachet among some blacks has nothing to do with black men dating or marrying white women.

    Again, Black men can not be blamed if a slightly higher fraction of White women find them more attractive than White men find Black women-relatively speaking. There is no way to equalize IR dating/marriage rates across every race/gender combination. And we’re not going to outlaw IR marriage or dating. So getting so bent out of shape about it as some BW seem to do just doesn’t make any sense.

    There are more older BW than BM. Since we know that men of any race tend not to find older women as attractive, that might indicate that BW who are interested in marriage would be better advised to seriously pursue it in their youth, when their ability to make demands is as high as it will ever be. But again, not every woman is marriage material or “deserves” a husband.


  698. White women are to be BANGED and left alone.

    sorry.

    one.


  699. “Men die earlier and engage in all sorts of objectively ridiculous or dangerous behavior in order to become “more attractive ” to women.”

    Many of them engage in that “objectively ridiculous or dangerous behavior” behavior (speed car and motorcycle racing etc.) because it makes them personally feel more “manly”, and will often pursue such activities whether there’s a woman (or women) involved or not.


  700. eco wrote: “Divorce statistics cannot be used to explain the amount of people who do not get married at all.”

    ITA.


  701. shady grady bm date/marry out twice as much as bw and black men are MEN they have the privilege of not being married and not having society look at them as if they’re dysfunctional that’s why they’re not “complaining” AS MUCH about it…don’t forget BLACK MEN have a privilege above Black women and that is that they’re men in a society that favors men

    and as I’ve said before it’s mostly Black men running after non-bw i said that earlier in one of my posts, and abagond clarified that bm are chosen last on dating site so that just further proves my point

    @ Shady Grady,

    I’ll continue talking about how I feel, not getting “bent out of shape,” just telling how I feel and voicing my opinion on a very racist/sexist society i have a right to do that


  702. @MaMu1977

    No one should feel comfortable about dictating the terms for attraction, no matter how shallow we might think they are. How convenient that years of rejection can be readily remedied by black women “looking at the man within” while the same courtesy isn’t offered to black women, who are instructed to conform/contort into something “pleasing”. But that’s an aside. Rejection is personal and requires a personal approach not a collective one. Counseling with a qualified professional or looking for women where there is relatively less perceived competition for female attention would be better solutions. Either way these are options not forced measures despite some of these guys making them appear as such.


  703. ok peanut, It always gets blamed on the white men and white fathers for “pushing” their daughters into the “forbidden fruit”(black men’s arms) with racist “stay with your own people attitudes”………… Isn’t that what black women have been doing hard core for the last 20 or so years . “Racism” and racist attitudes towards your sons and loved ones have sort of backfired on you.


  704. My sister, a white Catholic feminist from a small town, married a black man. She dated a few white guys in college, then met her husband and she aggressively sought him out. He wasn’t tall. He was smart, but there was no obvious sign he’d be well-off at the time. He was geeky, but funny.

    I’ve spent a lot of time with him over the past few years. Since my sister is a raging bitch with control issues out the wazoo, I’ve often wondered why such a nice guy would marry her, especially given that he had three girlfriends he was serious with in school, two of whom were black.

    His words:

    1) Your sister wouldn’t leave me alone.
    2) She was hot. I personally admit she wasn’t ugly. But hot? That’s a stretch. I saw pictures of one ex, a black woman; this woman was definitely hotter than my sister, without any doubt.
    3) She could cook. This is true. She can cook. She should thank my mother.
    4) It was time to get married.

    He didn’t take into account her insane bitchiness. The guy is practically a browbeaten yes-man now.

    BTW, my sister and I most emphatically do not get along.

    As far as black owmen behaving worse than my sister, I doubt there are many educated women who behave more oppressively than my sister.

    My father is not aggressively racist, but has a huge mess of unsubstantiated racist ideas as well as others which have some reasoning. My mother is the most racist among us, observably. She’s also capable of some pretty hateful stuff, about race and everything else; she speaks ill of many family members, likely me when I’m not around. To say she was opposed to the marriage is an understatement. But BIL persevered and convinced her he wasn’t a crack-head serial killer with four women on the sly. And after a pretty severe talking to by my father, when he was checked out BIL with a comb whose teeth were so fine you could barely see through them, my father said this to my mother:
    “It’s her choice, she needs to live with him, not you. I don’t think it’s our place to say anything.” – which meant, Shut Up Woman. And there was no word ever uttered again. My father is downright chummy with his son-on-law, and actively seeks out contact with his BIL’s extended family. It’s not lovely-dovey, but my father is respectful and is a Manly Man with the other men.

    He’s straight up enough to talk about race as a white guy. I wouldn’t call him sensitive, but he never seems to offend the in-laws. My mother, who is a canny character, regularly ends up insulting someone. But this is not remarkable: She does this to many people.

    Two children later, and my father has not once ever suggested it was a mistake, that there’s anything wrong with the kids, and has showered his two grandchildren with love and affection. He worries about how white and black people treat them. The oldest is at the age, so boys are becoming interesting. She wants to do science. He takes her on little science trips and to museums. Not a word against her black father or her being “black” ever gets uttered in his presence. He never speaks down to her and expects her to do very well in school.

    He is still, by and large, a racist. But I’ve moderated my assessment. While racist, I think he always insisted that individuals be judged on merit; a white guy who was a bastard was still a bastard, and an honest black man was preferable.

    It goes to show how racism plays out. It’s not always the same.

    Personally, I’ve noticed a lot of interacial dynamics in the family.

    Almost all of the tension comes from my sister, who insists on seeing racism everywhere. While my BIL likes hanging out with me, she thinks I’m a racist bastard. She thinks literally everyone is a racist bastard. She smells racism under every rock. When I suggested she married the guy because he was a black man – dangerous Black guy, I want to shock Daddy, but also conveniently safe being ivy-educated and mild-mannered – she laid into me with a metaphorical two by four.

    On the other hand, my two nieces have been browbeaten at school for being too white, often aggressively so, and since going to an all-Asian/White private school, are condescended to by just a couple of teachers and sniffed at and condescended to by almost al lof the Asian kids; the white kids walk tippy-toe around them. The older one is very sensitive to it. She declared herself not black for a while, then decided she hated Chinese people. Then she was proud of the fact she looked like Mom and Dad.

    This is not going to be an easy road for her. But she has resources.

    I’m racist – I make no bones about it – but in ways that aren’t typical. I view humans from the lens of biology and population genetics, in which I was trained: Humans are just another mammal, with population characteristics with complex cultural systems. But no less mammals than squirrels or rhesus monkeys. I expect internal variation. I’m surprised by how few differences there are between populations; I suspect severe population bottlenecks where we almost went extinct several times and infrequent but substantial interbreeding make us lucky. I can’t imagine how horrible human rights would be in a world with actual Neanderthals or archaic homo around.

    That said, when I get on a subway with a large group of black kids, I am hyper-cautious. When I see my nieces, I see my own family. I do look for confirmation of racist notions, indicating confirmation-bias seeking. I try to be neutral, but it’s more or less impossible.

    Whatever their motivations, the only solution may be fucking each other until it’s irrelevant and no category last longer than a generation, and there are as many exceptions as rules.

    I have no idea. I do know I care about what happens to my nieces.

    I spend a lot of time in Korea. Huge time, in fact. Also China. I know my niece’s reception here would be very different from mine. The racist in Korea is palpable, vicious and hugely complex. In China, it’s byzantine.

    I worry about that too.

    On the other hand, my BIL is great to drink with. So there you go:

    Racist or not, see the humans. See them jump. See them do their human shit.


  705. My opinion is some white fathers in the hippy baby boomer generation have gotten a little too open about it. It seems like they would kick a white kid troublemakers butt for even looking at their daughter, but feel scared or politically incorrect to chase some black punk away. So in that case the racism is in the black kids favor. Because no one wants to be pegged as a racist. Look if it’s a nice kid that has good intentions fine. But when it comes to my daughter I don’t care if you are white or black ……you are going to have to get passed me, and I don’t tickle. You better have good intentions and if I find out some aswipe is just using her to get back for slavery…..well god help him.


  706. But I think my sister is, frankly, worse than my father as far as racism goes. She has ideas. Some of them are well-meaning but kind-of oddly paternalistic.

    My father may be racist, but he’s direct about it and straightforward. he takes jokes about white people and laughs at them. BIL’s father is also a funny guy and a man’s man, and they can spend hours at a family dinner shooting the shit
    .

    Nobody has any idea what they talk about.


  707. my daughter is only six, and i’ll tell you this, I go out of my way to hope she sees all people as the same. In this country that is very hard. she is in kindergarten and we live in a somewhat mixed area, out of 20 kids I would say 10 white , 4 black, 4 Latino, and 2 Asians, her best friend is Angela (not her real name) a little asian girl. She has come home and asked me why her friends eyes are different…..What am I supposed to say..should I go on some boring evolutionary scientific rant about the ice-age and sandstorms…………or do you say “God made everyone special”………….. so she might see her differently. I just said “well everyone has different eyes, like daddy’s eye’s are dark brown and yours are light” but she’s sharp she knows there’s more to it. So I had to say well Angela is Asian and their eyes are slightly different because they come from a different country, and we look like our parents and grandparents. I told her about my Irish and Italian ancestors and how they were seen as different when they first got here, and how in america that is what is beautiful. So then she asked me why are black people black. So I told her well, don’t you get very tanned in the summer after going to Mom-Moms pool all of the time?(I’m dark skinned Italian..she gets that from me) well that is god’s way of protecting us from the sun………and it gets passed on to your children and grandchildren and in africa black people had been in the sun for a very long time so if you were at mom moms pool for a very long time you would look like them. She actually got that one….but still she couldn’t understand why Angela had different eyes. So I just told her that God likes Angela so she made her beautiful with cool looking eyes. So then she said well why doesn’t god like me? and then it hit me. You have to teach your kids to understand other people, but don’t do it to the point that they don’t respect where THEY come from or who THEY are. So I told her well hun don’t ever say that God loves you just the same and don’t EVER forget that. We come from a proud people who made the journey through ellis island and for that we are strong……………..I’m sorry I won’t apologize for remembering where I come from just because I’m WHITE………….


  708. I also had a best friend who was Asian , he moved away after 10th grade, and I still miss him to this day. I also fight against what I call positive racism. I could tell my daughter that most Asians are smart,nice, cool, good looking, humble, and at peace with their lives. But that is also wrong to do. We all need to stop projecting personal experience to all members of a race and that includes against all white people which is real popular these days……..just look at this blog……….


  709. I dated lots of Asian women, and white women. I’ve dated a few black women, and lived with one more or less for a year. She was French and Senegalese.

    I have this to say about women:

    They’re pretty much all women.


  710. and ending racism doesn’t mean you have to kiss butt. Ok . Some of these white girls are a product of that. like it or not. I know that isn’t as juicy as the big bad racist white father angle .


  711. I’ll admit that the way I was raised impacted the way I dated. I was a rebel to a point but the big Catholic Weddings especially on the Italian side impacted me. I wanted that. and I knew it wouldn’t be the same with a black girl or a Jewish girl. I had to conform to what I thought was the family tradition. I did date a Jewish Girl for a while and some of my family joked a little but it really wasn’t a big deal to them as it was in my head after attending so many Catholic Weddings and CCD ( That is catholic study for public school kids those who don’t know) but really her older brother had more of a serious problem with me. He probably thought the same way I did, but he was older. He told me that I shouldn’t bother getting too close to Amy because him and his other brother and father would kick my as. This was at a box seat of a Phillies game. They came from rich people. He knew where I was from (the other side of the tracks) and he would make sure me and her would never happen. Of course that only made me mad and I went on dating her , even though I secretly loved another. I told him f u and you and your boys try it because you don’t want any parts of me and mine. I said well by brothers a butcher by trade and my uncles an undertaker………..bring it fool. It almost came to blows right there. We really weren’t in love and it was a waste of our times. But I think that is a interreligional relationship that I think Peanut is trying to get at where it is for the wrong reasons.


  712. Abagond I made a mistake in that story mentioning her name, anyway you could edit:)


  713. I changed her name.


  714. Thank you


  715. I still see it though…….the sentence is” I shouldn’t bother getting too close to “xxxxx” because……………………”


  716. Look again.


  717. thanks that guys probably still after me


  718. “I’m sorry I won’t apologize for remembering where I come from just because I’m WHITE………….”

    ***********************************************

    QUESTION:

    Dave, who is the individual (or group) you think requires an apology from you because you know where you came from?


  719. @ Matari well I am making an assumption based on a pattern of comments. I feel like the civil rights movement, as “right” as it is can be confusing and complicated. White children shouldn’t feel like they should be ashamed of who they are and where they come from.


  720. I don’t feel anyone NEEDs an apology from me as a group, and I definitely don’t want my kids to apologize for anything.As a father I take that to heart.


  721. “White children shouldn’t feel like they should be ashamed of who they are and where they come from.”

    *********************************

    It’s never been about where someone is from.
    It’s about why some STILL have/maintain skin privilege, while “others” don’t have the luxury of having it.


  722. So when you see a white homeless person do you automatically think “what a loser…..his white skin gave him so many advantages……and he just threw all that away”……as if it was that easy just being white skinned.


  723. “I definitely don’t want my kids to apologize for anything.As a father I take that to heart.”

    **********************

    Good luck with that…


  724. “It’s not how hard you can hit…….It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward”……Rocky


  725. “Good Luck with that” I know that is impossible but you want the best for your kids. Look they are going to deal with bad people white and black that is a fact. Hopefully racial lines won’t be so thick by then.


  726. Dave – let’s compare apples to apples. Given the way this world works, whose chances are better for survival and recovery, the white homeless person, or the black homeless person?

    Why is it that hard for YOU to see/admit that white skin is advantageous in America?


  727. Matari it is if you are also rich, cool popular, talented, connected, and good looking it isn’t skin alone. and it’s not that I don’t see it, but it is alot more complicated than just the color of your skin.


  728. In America people like to look at whites as the absolute majority. Well what if you grew up in the inner city and you are more under that local jurisdiction then the entire federal system. You are more likely to be discriminated against, beat up, clowned,etc than a black person. can you see that . lets see it you can admit some tough truth.


  729. look man, I’ve been there and I’m still struggling. I don’t look at someone who makes it black or white and say ” well they got there because” I say “GOOD GOIN KID” because we all need encouragement, and I’m sorry if I “broke up your black panther party”…………(Forrest Gump) but are there privileged people who don’t deserve what they have……..yes. But their lives aren’t as fulfilling because the funnest part is that journey to the top man.


  730. Of course I can see/admit that. But even you know that being that lone kid growing up in a tough ethnic neighborhood thing – goes both ways, right?

    But one kid’s chances get much better at finding success, he will experience less bumps on his journey. The other kid faces more potholes, more flat tires, more indignities, a life rife with paper-cuts, road blocks/checks and negative assumptions because his skin color is darker.

    No one is saying that being white is automatically peaches and cream.
    But the evidence remains overwhelming that tremendous advantages are still in place.

    I think you use RACE to compare how YOUR life is, relative to the privileges you have, but aren’t feeling/realizing/enjoying.

    But if you think it’s bad for you now, chances are you’d find yourself in a worse predicament if you were a black male.

    \Dave, haven’t we already had this convo at least 2-3 times ??


  731. We are really way OFF topic, so I’m going to stop now.


  732. @ Matari

    Thank you. I will delete any further comments on this vein.


  733. Peanut,

    You are so right about bw/ww IRs being less threatening than Black relationships. Racist Steve Sailer laments the fact that our President is actually married to a Black woman, not white.

    Also, I read bell hooks’ viewpoint regarding bm/ww relationships as being less threatening today than other Black relationships. What she wrote in her first book is true.

    Stephanie


  734. @Gorbachev

    I’m racist – I make no bones about it – but in ways that aren’t typical.

    I found it interesting reading your perspective about your sister and BIL, particularly in light of the above.

    I think your honesty and candour are interesting and I guess your POV is that of many people in that we ALL have our prejudices built on experiences, fear, misinformation etc but, its HOW we choose to perpetuate them or even IF we decide to or whether we are able to rationalise these thoughts/feelings in our own minds, come to terms with them and ensure that they dont become a barrier in terms of our day to day existence.

    Almost all of the tension comes from my sister, who insists on seeing racism everywhere. While my BIL likes hanging out with me, she thinks I’m a racist bastard. She thinks literally everyone is a racist bastard. She smells racism under every rock. When I suggested she married the guy because he was a black man – dangerous Black guy, I want to shock Daddy, but also conveniently safe being ivy-educated and mild-mannered – she laid into me with a metaphorical two by four.

    Maybe, just maybe, she met and fell in love with this guy. In fact, it sounds as though she is besotted with him. I wonder if it is YOU that was the one who was most shocked and needed to re-adjust himself. Maybe, unwittingly, there was a teensy weensy part of you that lost respect for your sister when she took up with BM – this is not an uncommon thing amongst WM or other men with siblings in IRR for that matter. I only say this because you refer to your strained relationship over the years and seemingly ambivalent stance towards her in the now that you allude to. Also, if your mum is making objectionable comments, i’m not surprised your sister is seeing racism lurking round every corner.

    On the other hand, my two nieces have been browbeaten at school for being too white, often aggressively so, and since going to an all-Asian/White private school, are condescended to by just a couple of teachers and sniffed at and condescended to by almost al lof the Asian kids; the white kids walk tippy-toe around them

    I have to say here that this is the only thing that I have often found concerning about mixed race children in this type of relationship where there seems to be little input from the father in explaining and putting into perspective the childs racial diversity. It is natural for children to feel a lot of uncertainty in terms of who they are amongst their peers but, equally I feel it is important for the parents to ensure that a child does know ‘who’ they are, even if at the time it is discomfiting.


  735. Abagond:

    Blackmen date/marry whitewomen and other non-black women because they can. If blackmen knew that they couldn’t get other women into bed, they wouldn’t chase. Second, blackmen know that they can play the game as long as they want to, meaning, they can indulge their swirl fantasies on their schedule…one day, one week, one month, one year, etc. It’s called B.M.S.P.(Black Male Sexual Priviledge). Blackmen are chasing tail, but, they don’t have the courage to be upfront about it. Brothas, don’t tell me it’s about colorblindness and love. I don’t believe that ish, i know how blackmen talk about whitewomen. They’re not talking about their personalities if you know what i mean. The black male/white female dynamic is about sexual lust, not romance. Whitemen have turned whitewomen into sex objects, and blackmen view them as such just the same. I want blackwomen to realize that it’s not about whitewomen, they’re being used as idolized pinatas by both groups of men. Blackmen think they’re getting back at whitemen by co-opting x amount of their women for sexual gain, which is funny to me, because, whitemen were too occupied with their female slaves to care about whitewomen anyway…Real Talk! As to dilution of our race, it’s a crapshoot. As black people, we should avoid the “One Drop Rule” trap that has existed in our race since slavery. Mulattos are not obligated to see themselves as black, date/marry black people, and so forth. If they want membership in our race, they have to be serious about it. Blackness can’t be used as cover for them…black identity without the loyalty. Halle Berry and Stacey Dash are examples of this mindset. Stacey Dash is half-black/half-mexican, married three whitemen, has three multiracial children. But, she wants society to see her as a blackwoman at the same time. She’s playing the system. Without loyalty, blackness doesn’t mean anything!!!

    Tyrone
    Black Eros


  736. @Demerera

    I’m racist – I make no bones about it – but in ways that aren’t typical.

    I found it interesting reading your perspective about your sister and BIL, particularly in light of the above.

    Before I get nailed to a tree for admitting and not particularly apologizing for having racist opinions:

    I come at it from a liberal perspective; I would like there to be no reason for human categories, but I treat humans as subjects like cockroaches or mice: unsentimentally. Evolution predicts there should be population subgroups, and lo and behold, there may be.

    It doesn’t mean I think less of black people and I’m as far as you can get from being a white supremacist and still be white: But the principle reason I have any racist views is largely from viewing humans as animals first. I work with lots of black people; they’re generally smart, as charming as any normal people and – you guessed it – exactly like anyone else. I lived with a black woman for a year, and was always impressed by her poise and intelligence, and a french accent didn’t hurt. On the other hand, there’s the inner city. I’ve never experienced messed up like any American inner city. In my view, the politics of race and racism, liberal do-gooder racism and color-blindness, as well as the unfortunate response of its victims, has devastated a vast swathe of Americans. I see no good way out. I think the population is suffering dysgenic effects and is bifurcating: anyone with genetic predispositions to making good is getting or has gotten out. It’s possible that even if there’s no genetic difference then we’re breeding it as we speak. It takes shockingly few generations to produce serious shifts in gene frequencies. By letting this problem fester, we’re creating a permanent, insoluble problem. Its not encouraging.

    And I’ve traveled most of the world, including Africa; alas, I find anecdotal evidence for politically incorrect ideas and population genetics has treated me to knowledge of how this could be. It’s very, very plausible. If height varies by ancestry, then anything else can. The mechanisms are well understood and the same effect appears when looking at all aspects of what it is to be human. It genuinely disturbs me.

    That said: I have problems with my own racism, too. I’m a product of my culture. I have to work to keep rationalizations out of my head. I try to limit it to what science suggests and discovers; this is extremely difficult.

    Am I racist? Yeah. Do I feel guilty? Not much. My greater loyalty is to what appears to be true; its political consequences notwithstanding. My science background taught me to try to strip emotion and feeling and sentiment from knowledge. This is difficult, but makes a nice goal. If presented with countering evidence, I’m extremely happy to explore it.

    I have no endearing loyalty to any white race or ethnicity, as a result. I appreciate the white privilege I have in this society, especially after suffering its lack elsewhere. Should I apologize for this? Were it the other way around, I’m pretty sure, as absolutely typical humans, a majority black population in the US would behave in the same manner. Likely exactly the same. No one is morally superior. Only power differentials produce different results. DO I think black Americans should be wary of white people? Absolutely. DO I think the reverse? Alas, yes. Do I think black Americans should be wary of Asians? With much more experience in Asia than most, I say most definitely yes. Asian racism will die much harder and have more vicious side effects.

    We navigate the world as individuals, even if we associate as groups.

    I think color blindness is retarded. I come to many of the same places as Abagond, though on the other side of the fence. I actually hope for a world of flowers and peace and racelessness, but I think this is unlikely, at best. I want a functioning country and maximal happiness for everyone. I think black Americans looking to white people for redress is a profound waste of time. For good reasons, whites will never pony up; I sympathize with them. In a real sense, it makes more sense for blacks to be wary of whites and Asians. Vice versa is unfortunately also true. Best answer:

    Plod ahead as best we can. Maybe interbreeding will execute this problem like the difficult sociopath it is.

    It’s odd that under segregation, some black communities did far better than any has since, in terms of basic social metrics. I think the biggest enemies of black America are good-intentioned color blind liberals. Conservatives and racists are like big rocks: Easy to step around because you can see them. Happy liberals who think they know better than everyone are actually seditious bad guys. They’re also usually True Believers, which makes them deadly dangerous.

    Like my father, a white racist can be torn from ideas into (almost but not quite) voting for Obama by two half-black nieces. There’s hope in that.
    But a liberal on an ideological bender can steamroll over both reality and everyone in Ideological vicinity.


  737. I think your honesty and candour are interesting and I guess your POV is that of many people in that we ALL have our prejudices built on experiences, fear, misinformation etc

    And sometimes legitimate experiences. Anyone who isn’t nervous around 2-10 young black men, especially if a couple of teenage girls are with them egging them on, is a bald-faced liar and I’ll stand there and tell them to their face. In some cases, this is a useful survival reaction, even if racist. On the other hand, this is also situational and cultural.

    But, it’s HOW we choose to perpetuate them or even IF we decide to or whether we are able to rationalise these thoughts/feelings in our own minds, come to terms with them and ensure that they dont become a barrier in terms of our day to day existence.

    This is how I feel. I meet a pretty black woman in the bank, I have two reactions: Can I hit on her (not so much now, but in general) and what’s her story, the only black woman in an all white-Asian bank. Everything else may be there, but next to “Can I hit on her?” is pretty much the one that crowds out everything else. If I meet a well-spoken black guy in a suit, my hackles don’t get up. But I’ve got lots of crime stereotypes built into my perception of America.

    Maybe, just maybe, she met and fell in love with this guy. In fact, it sounds as though she is besotted with him.

    This is certainly true, but she also had a point to prove and is not as racially blind as she’d like to believe. If her husband was white, she’d never behave in the same manner. She has an air of moral superiority for having married a black man: She Is Better Than Others For Crossing The Line. I’ve known her all her life.

    I wonder if it is YOU that was the one who was most shocked and needed to re-adjust himself.

    You don’t know me, so this is a reasonable supposition. What can I say: just, not the case in this situation. My sister is a sanctimonious princess. Her husband is who he is, but there are times when his ineffable Blackness seems more important to her. In fact, I suspect it means less to me than it does to her.
    I think in relationships like this, you need to be hyper-conscious of your motivations to avoid having race get into it. That said, he loves her. She loves him, too; or something. They’ve been married for 11 years, so who knows.

    Maybe, unwittingly, there was a teensy weensy part of you that lost respect for your sister when she took up with BM –

    Bemused, but I had stepped out and married a Jew (and then divorced). My mother was the one who was in tears. Welcome to America.

    this is not an uncommon thing amongst WM or other men with siblings in IRR for that matter.

    True. Other people, possibly true. But not me, mostly.

    I only say this because you refer to your strained relationship over the years and seemingly ambivalent stance towards her in the now that you allude to.

    My strained relationship was strained in highschool. The woman is a sanctimonious, prissy bitch. She’s got great qualities. But we’ve never gotten along. Her husband, however, is a great guy. I once entertained making my mother weep tears of despair by dating his sister, who is not unattractive, but that was too bizarre to do for more than 3 seconds.

    Also, if your mum is making objectionable comments, i’m not surprised your sister is seeing racism lurking round every corner.

    But she’s the kind of person that has Allied Herself With The Oppressed And Is An Honorary Member. It drives me nuts. Her husband has to put the brakes on her constant quest to find racism and impute it in literally everything.

    He, for example, is an actual Black Man. I’m sure he’ll see racism when it happens and be properly pissed off on his kids’ behalf. But my sister comes to street fights with nuclear weapons, and she sets herself up on the battlefield the night before. And if nobody shows up to fight her, you can see her itching for a fight.

    That’s the kind of attitude that sickens me. Some teacher tells him his daughter is, well, you know, maybe not X college material, he’ll judge the comment and respond accordingly, and if there’s a hint of patronizing racism, I know he’ll see to it. My sister will make sure to raise the issue at the beginning of the school year in some snide, “I’m watching you and I Know Because I Married A Black Man So Don’t Try To Fool Me” way.

    I find beer and losing the women for a while helps ease the passage of such things.

    On the other hand, my two nieces have been browbeaten at school for being too white, often aggressively so, and since going to an all-Asian/White private school, are condescended to by just a couple of teachers and sniffed at and condescended to by almost al lof the Asian kids; the white kids walk tippy-toe around them

    I have to say here that this is the only thing that I have often found concerning about mixed race children in this type of relationship where there seems to be little input from the father in explaining and putting into perspective the childs racial diversity. It is natural for children to feel a lot of uncertainty in terms of who they are amongst their peers but, equally I feel it is important for the parents to ensure that a child does know ‘who’ they are, even if at the time it is discomfiting.

    I really think my BIL should be much more proactive in this, but they’re his kids and it’s not my business. I was disappointed to have the older one come up and tell me once that she doesn’t think she’d black.

    It’s fine if she’s thought about it and she thinks her cultural identity is X or Y, but like Nazis and Jews, just because you don’t think you’re One Of Them doesn’t mean other people won’t think so.

    She likes dinosaurs and rocks and bugs; especially bugs. I wish she’d think more about bugs and stuff like that and less about what the girls are saying at school.

    I’ve found that there’s a special vicious quality to female cruelty that plays out on the playground.

    I have nothing to say to her about being black. Just hang tough. People are shitty a lot of the time. Be proud of your dad and your mom and yourself, think about important things and let jerks be jerks on their own time. Make space for yourself.

    We all have to do this regardless, it’s just a little more confusin